I am trying to collect information about the 1920x1200 LCD computer monitors.

As far as I know there are two and only two such LCD panel manufacturers: LG Philips makes 23" panel and Samsung makes 24" panel. Both panels are sold as monitors by them but also under several other brands in different cases.

First, is this information correct? Are there other panels available?

Second, are those two lines of monitors which have same glass but are sold under different brands in fact identical, that is electronics is also the same?

An last but not least: Which of those monitor lines provides better PQ especially when tested with 1920x1080 HDTV, LG or Samsung?

The Sony 23" SDM-P232W/B will do 19x12. It may be repackaged, however, like the Apple HD 23" monitor (LG).

I have the Sony, running it at 1920x1800, and it looks great!

That monitor should run in 1920x1200. Mine is currently running at 1600x1200 due to video car limitations.

As I understand all 23" monitors are based on LG glass.
Any PQ differences between e.g. Apple and Sony?

How the 23" compares to the 24" by Samsung?

It is now clarified that the new 24" 1920x1200 Samsung 243T
which was scheduled for October but not available, will appear
in January:

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,113561,00.asp

The response time on the Sony is 40ms, while the response time on the Samsung is 25ms.

It depends on if the Sony is still on the old panel or the new. The Apple 23" used to use the same panel as the Sony, but then upgraded in May 2003. The new panel is MUCH better than the old... not quite as good as the Samsung, but definitely better than the old panel.

Sony's website says a 40ms response time for the SDM-P232W/B. LG also lists their L2320A as 40ms on their website. As far as the Apple, well they don't list it, they just say "Lightning-fast pixel response for full-motion digital video playback". Which is a pretty good indicator that its really bad. If anyone actually knows the real number for the Apple, I would love to hear it.

I have a Samsung 240T running at 1920x1200. I love the 16:10 widescreen aspect of the monitor but I would only give the quality of the picture a 6 out of 10 rating.

My advice would be to wait for "new and approved" versions at lower prices.

Originally posted by Ronald K
I have a Samsung 240T running at 1920x1200. I love the 16:10 widescreen aspect of the monitor but I would only give the quality of the picture a 6 out of 10 rating.
My advice would be to wait for "new and approved" versions at lower prices.

It is now inevitable to wait for January introduction of 243T, with
price stated at 2399$. This one might be close to the holy grail of
1920x1200.

It looks to me like the LG L2320A is the best of the bunch, including the new 243T.

Most importantly, the LG clearly includes HDTV component inputs (plus S-video, composite, etc.) whereas is it not clear to me that the Samsung will, when it comes out.

The LG is a bit more expensive, but at this price level who cares?

David

How are you determining the superiority of the LG, when the 243t doesn't even seem to be out yet, or at the best is out on a limited basis?

Did you see the 243t at CES or something? Or are you assuming the 243t will be based on the same panel/glass as the 240t (a monitor that is a couple of years old now). Or maybe you are basing this on the 241MP (which seems geared more like a TV input-wise than a PC monitor).

While I agree it'd be great to be able to synch directly to a HDTV signal from a HDTV STB or OTA tuner, it's not high on my list of things that I care about in what will be a PC monitor. I would also assume that this ability is more of a function of the final product (ie it's drive circuits), and not the panel itself.

I'm considering a 23/24" WS monitor to do double duty as a new PC monitor and a occasional use tv/DVD player in my bedroom (where my PC is right now), so I'm interested in these monitors (and their motion-based PQ) as well. Or I might just say, 'screw it' and get a 4:3 1600x1200 Dell 2001FP for much, much less and recapture some desktop real estate for a slightly smaller picture.

I was using the Sony 23" SDM-P232W for the past few months. I decided it's PQ wasn't what I was looking for, so I sold it. I picked up the Apple 23" Cinema HD display last week, and am using it with my PC via the ADC to DVI adapter. The picture is much sharper, definitely a step up from the Sony.

I'm trying to find an affordable DVI KVM switch now for the 4 PC's that I will use with this monitor. I picked up the Belkin 4 port DVI switch, but they designed it poorly, and there's not enough space to fit the ADC/DVI connector for the source monitor. In fact, there's not enough space for any DVI connector to fit there, it's about a 1/2" that the connector still needs to clear. Bad design. Anyone with a suggestion on a DVI switch in the same price range? I don't need to pass HDCP on this switch, as it's only for PC work.

kevin

You might want to check Gefen.

Yes, the Gefen looks like it would work, but it's about 4x the price of the Belkin one. Ouch!

FWIW, I have heard of two other monitors at this resolution:
-the BenQ FP231W, due out shortly and the Wide IF2400A.

BenQ is claiming 16 mS response time and both analog and DVI-D inputs.

Guys -

I've had a Samsung 240T Monitor for 2 years now running at 1920 x 1200 via a GeForce 3 based card.... The picture quality is STELLAR and I give it a 10 out of 10.

I also watch HDTV on it at 1080i via the RGB input using an HDTV tuner card (Hipix) in my PC - again, the picture is UNBELIEVABLE.

It's nice to hear that that have a new model coming out finally at a much better price.... I paid 5k for mine!

Regards,
Aaron

Originally posted by orogogus
How are you determining the superiority of the LG, when the 243t doesn't even seem to be out yet, or at the best is out on a limited basis?

Did you see the 243t at CES or something? Or are you assuming the 243t will be based on the same panel/glass as the 240t (a monitor that is a couple of years old now). Or maybe you are basing this on the 241MP (which seems geared more like a TV input-wise than a PC monitor).

While I agree it'd be great to be able to synch directly to a HDTV signal from a HDTV STB or OTA tuner, it's not high on my list of things that I care about in what will be a PC monitor. I would also assume that this ability is more of a function of the final product (ie it's drive circuits), and not the panel itself.

I'm considering a 23/24" WS monitor to do double duty as a new PC monitor and a occasional use tv/DVD player in my bedroom (where my PC is right now), so I'm interested in these monitors (and their motion-based PQ) as well. Or I might just say, 'screw it' and get a 4:3 1600x1200 Dell 2001FP for much, much less and recapture some desktop real estate for a slightly smaller picture.


I'm only looking at two points:

1. 25ms response time

2. HDTV inputs, which is important to me

Does anyone here actually have, or have used an LG L2320A?

David

I have that on my laptop. 1920x1200 in 15.4 inches!

Originally posted by quadad
FWIW, I have heard of two other monitors at this resolution:
-the BenQ FP231W, due out shortly and the Wide IF2400A.
BenQ is claiming 16 mS response time and both analog and DVI-D inputs.

Thnak you for bringing info about Benq. But, whenever I see 23" 1920x1200 mentioned I tend to think this must be LG glass. Can it be that BenQ is LG glass or some other (BenQ???) glass?

Same with 24", when I see it Samsung glass comes to mind. So Wide is based
on Sammy glass, right?

There are then only LG 23" and Sammy 24" glasses for 1920x1200 monitors.
Which means monitors based on both lines should be similar and the real
comparison is between them.

No idea on who sources what panel, but if you wanted another to compare with them, I suspect that the EDL displays in the 23" - 28" range, with the mind numbing resolution, are not sourced by those two panel makers. So, if price is no object ...

Originally posted by quadad
No idea on who sources what panel, but if you wanted another to compare with them, I suspect that the EDL displays in the 23" - 28" range, with the mind numbing resolution, are not sourced by those two panel makers. So, if price is no object ...

But if object is video? Highest for video is 1920x1200 at this point.

Does anyone know the response time of the Apple Cinema HD 23" lcd?

Originally posted by KevinYee
Does anyone know the response time of the Apple Cinema HD 23" lcd?

25ms for those built may 02 and later, 40ms for the ones built before.

Originally posted by gotapex
25ms for those built may 02 and later, 40ms for the ones built before.

I just purchased mine 2 weeks ago from an Apple store, so I assume it's the 25ms one. Even at that, 25ms sounds pretty slow, isn't it? It sure looks way better than the Sony 23" one I had before that, though. I'm contemplating whether or not to keep it though. At the $2k price range, is it the best widescreen LCD out there?

OK - I just pulled the trigger on the L2320a with the speakers.

I will report back when it comes.

David

Originally posted by KevinYee
Yes, the Gefen looks like it would work, but it's about 4x the price of the Belkin one. Ouch!

I can't comment on PQ, but Formac sells one to enable use of their ADC monitors with DVI

www.formac.com

Dschamis, how are you liking your L2320A? (I assume it you received it by now...)

I'm considering this one, but would like to hear some impressions first. All the specs look great, except for the only 300:1 contrast ratio.

Thanks.

-tony

Any info on this bad boy?

I have been using the L2320A w/ the SP2320 speakers for about three weeks now and I absolutely love it.

Firstly, the video quality is excellent. I don't do any gaming, so I have no opinion on that front. I do a lot of Photoshop and Premiere on the high end, and a lot of emailing and web surfing on the low end. The color is great (I got Spyder to color correct the monitor) and the resolution is fantastic.

Secondly, watching TV is very cool. It has all the inputs I could need (at least for now), which is the #1 reason I went with the LG. The picture in picture is the best part. I can have a small window in the upper right corner of the screen for watching TV, without using much resolution. This is much better than a TV tuner card (which I've used before) because it doesn't require any PC resources.

Thridly, the HD quality is very good. For a 23" screen, it looks great (it doesn't compare too well to my 503CMX, but that a different league).

Overall, I recommend this to anyone who needs a PC monitor that doubles as a bunch of other things, and who particularly likes the idea of PIP.

David

What do you have connected to enable TV watching? Cable? Antenna? HD STB?

Originally posted by tbacos
What do you have connected to enable TV watching? Cable? Antenna? HD STB?

I have a Pioneer HD cable box from Time Warner, a TiVo Series II connected to another Time Warner cable box, and an old VCR.

Sorry for more dumb questions, but how do you configure the size and location of the PIP TV window (without using PC resources)?

Originally posted by tbacos
Sorry for more dumb questions, but how do you configure the size and location of the PIP TV window (without using PC resources)?

No problem at all - I've asked much more dumb questions than I've answered!

You configure that on the monitor menus, therefore the PC has no idea you're even doing anything. The good news is that the PIP's location can but put virtually anywhere. The bad news is that the size has only two options, small and large. Large is too big, but small is perfect.

They also have a split screen, but I don't like it nearly as much because you lose a lot of the screen.

David

is how this LG page describes a L2323T:

http://us.lge.com/Product/proddetail.do?action=computer&prodId=L2323T&categoryId=0201

Specs don't appear for me, so it's difficult to say how it compares to the L2320A. Anyone have any info?

Speaking of the L2320A, here's it's manual:

http://us.lgservice.com/jsp/common/download.jsp?DOC_ID=KROWM000039317&FILE_NAME=KROWM000039317.PDF&FILE_GUBUN=I&ORIGINAL_NAME_b1_a1=ENG.PDF

And some more Qs for David: Are the SP2320 speakers made for the L2320A? How do they sound? Any info on the web?

Originally posted by randall
is how this LG page describes a L2323T:

http://us.lge.com/Product/proddetail.do?action=computer&prodId=L2323T&categoryId=0201

Specs don't appear for me, so it's difficult to say how it compares to the L2320A. Anyone have any info?

Speaking of the L2320A, here's it's manual:

http://us.lgservice.com/jsp/common/download.jsp?DOC_ID=KROWM000039317&FILE_NAME=KROWM000039317.PDF&FILE_GUBUN=I&ORIGINAL_NAME_b1_a1=ENG.PDF

And some more Qs for David: Are the SP2320 speakers made for the L2320A? How do they sound? Any info on the web?


I think that the L2323T is the same as the L2320A but it also has a TV tuner. I found some info on a German site by Googling the model name. While I considered the L2323T, I don't really need the tuner, so there was no reason to wait longer and pay more for it.

As far as the speakers go, they are made for the L2320A, although there is nothing special about them except for the color - they match the monitor. I would say that they sound good, but not great. If you're looking for great sounding speakers, I would look elsewhere.

David

Originally posted by dschamis
I have a Pioneer HD cable box from Time Warner, a TiVo Series II connected to another Time Warner cable box, and an old VCR.

Sorry for another clarifying question: Is HD fed to the monitor via DVI
input :confused:

Anyway, what we need now is somebody able to compare head on Sammy 243T and LG2320A :D

Originally posted by irkuck
Sorry for another clarifying question: Is HD fed to the monitor via DVI
input :confused:

Anyway, what we need now is somebody able to compare head on Sammy 243T and LG2320A :D



No - its component video to the monitor. The DVI output on the cable box is HDCP-only, and the DVI input on the monitor is not (although I haven't tried this yet - probably will at some point just for laughs).

As far as a head-to-head goes, I am in NYC. I'd be happy to host head-to-head at my place any time.

David

Originally posted by dschamis
No - its component video to the monitor. The DVI output on the cable box is HDCP-only, and the DVI input on the monitor is not (although I haven't tried this yet - probably will at some point just for laughs).

Is component input diminishing PQ a bit comparing to DVI?

As far as a head-to-head goes, I am in NYC. I'd be happy to host head-to-head at my place any time.
David

That would be great but it looks nobody yet has or even has seen
Samsung 243T physically. Do they really sell it:confused:

OMG! someone finally has personal experience with the LG2320a. I was JUST about to order a 243T because I couldn't find any LG information and their staff are appallingly clueless. Still, it's hard to ignore the truckload of inputs that the LG will accept.

dschamis, I would be grateful if you could clear up some questions.

1.) Does the LG overcome the original DVI resolution limitation - ie. can it do 1920x1200 through DVI?

2.) Tried running a first-person shooter or high action game through it yet?

3.) What is the contrast ratio and pixel response of your unit? (online specs are very inconsistent regarding this)

4.) is the USB hub USB 2.0 compatible?

regards,

Zac
--------
add - if it can support DVI @ WUXGA... what refresh rate? thanks again

1.) Does the LG overcome the original DVI resolution limitation - ie. can it do 1920x1200 through DVI?

No - it is subject to the same limits, so I am going Analog.


2.) Tried running a first-person shooter or high action game through it yet?

I haven't - I hate to admit this but I don't play any games on any of my PCs (I have two hooked up to the LG via a KVM switch). I have a PS2 connected to a 50" plasma for games.


3.) What is the contrast ratio and pixel response of your unit? (online specs are very inconsistent regarding this)

This (http://us.lgservice.com/jsp/common/download.jsp?DOC_ID=KROWM000039317&FILE_NAME=KROWM000039317.PDF&FILE_GUBUN=I&ORIGINAL_NAME_b1_a1=ENG.PDF) is the only manual I got, which doesn't specify - I don't know.


4.) is the USB hub USB 2.0 compatible?

No - the manual says 1.1.


Zac - you are absolutely right - with the number of inputs the LG has, it was impossible to pass up!

David

dschamis - thanks for the prompt reply. Very helpful.

To all who are interested. Here are the 23-24" LCDs in existence (from what I can gather).

updated list
-----------
HP Flat panel monitor L2335 (released? DVI@WUXGA? PIP/other video inputs?)
BenQ FP231W (not released)
Fujitsu FLC56UWC8V (UXGA - aimed at TV market. good CR. PR-25ms no DVI?)
Fujitsu FLC56XWC8V (non WUXGA - aimed at PC)
Wide IF2400A (aimed at medical/radiology. poor PR. expensive)
Sony PremierPRO SDMP232W (worse than ACD. cheaper tho)
Apple Cinema Display 23” (worse than LG2320a. cheaper tho)
LG 2320a (looks sexy. every input except coaxial/scart. has speakers)
LG 2323t (upcoming. same panel as 2320a. with tuner)
Samsung 240T (discontinued - had speakers and composite/s-video)
Samsung 243T (DVI@WUXGA. Rotates. No composite/s-video/component)
Samsung 241MP (no DVI. speakers. aimed at TV)

Of these, it seems the majority are probably LG or Samsung panels, with the exception being Wide and Fujitsu. Fujitsu apparently has some sort of special technology where it splits the pixels in two and angles the halves in different directions to improve homogeneity of colour and viewing angles.

These are just my own notes and opinions in personal research for a display. I hope there are no huge mistakes. One should always get the model number and check the official website of the brand to confirm. (Of course, it doesn't help if that "official site" is inconsistent or redundant in its information!). Now if Tomshardware would just do one of their thorough reviews/roundups...

I will probably order the 243T in a weeks time and drive it with a 9800XT. It's unfortunate the LG can't do DVI@WUXGA. I'll post a review after I have a decent play around. I'll mainly be doing video/graphic editing but hope it works well for games too. I think it would also be good for swiveling and reading comics with CDisplay.

I'm using an ATI 9600SE video card with my LG L2320A.

For regular 2D Windows video (i.e. I'm not doing any serious gaming), does it really make a difference versus a higher quality 9800PRO or XT? Would it even be worth the upgrade?

David

No. I'm pretty sure that the 9X00 series all have similar 2D performance. I'm after 3D performance for games too. I'm due for an upgrade because my current v.card (Geforce 2 GTS) is only 32mb and won't handle the type of resolutions we're talking about. Also for me it would be a big performance leap. I think that the 9800 pro will not be all that remarkably different from the XT performance-wise but I wanted the VIVO capabilities of the ASUS version. Im under the impression that the 9800 pro AIW may clash with an HDTV card I'm also going to throw in the mix - the Visionplus DVB-T.

In conclusion, for you, it is not worth an upgrade, especially if you do not play PC games.

Zac

Originally posted by mizu
I will probably order the 243T in a weeks time and drive it with a 9800XT. It's unfortunate the LG can't do DVI@WUXGA. I'll post a review after I have a decent play around. I'll mainly be doing video/graphic editing but hope it works well for games too. I think it would also be good for swiveling and reading comics with CDisplay.

Do let us know what your experiences are with the 243T... I'm reasonably sure this is the panel I'm going to get soon as well. It's that or a 4:3 2001FP (for considerably less). I hope it has an improvement in the refresh and isn't the same panel as is in the last rev of the 240t. IIRC that panel was 25ms. I too am mostly concerned with gaming performance, and I'll watch DVDs/TV on it as well.

Just want you guys to know I have seen the panel specs for both the 240T and 243T and they are almost exactly the same. I belive the 243T has a slightly better contrast ratio. Anyways, I HAVE a 240T (for about 10 months), and all I do is FPS game. This monitor rocks! I have a 9800 Pro running this badboy and I can game at 1900x1200 DVI...yes DVI. Almost no others panels can do that. Not to mention the PQ is the greatest I have seen on an LCD (It smokes my previous CRT). I would definitely buy a 243T if given the chance, it will almost assuredly perform just as good. Just to let you know I run games such as UT 2003, Raven Shield, and the new UT 2004 Demo at 1900x1200 and they look great. This panel may say 25ms, but I never notice any artifacts or ghosting and sometimes i get in the 60+ FPS range!


D

Originally posted by dschamis
1.) Does the LG overcome the original DVI resolution limitation - ie. can it do 1920x1200 through DVI?

No - it is subject to the same limits, so I am going Analog.

David

That to me is deficiency, PQ on LCD is better via DVI :(

Samsung 243T looks better choice if all other things are equal :)

Originally posted by irkuck
That to me is deficiency, PQ on LCD is better via DVI :(

Samsung 243T looks better choice if all other things are equal :)


How does the Samsung get over this issue? I thought that the limitation was based on DVI technology.

I can certainly try running a DVI cable to the LG to see what resolution I can get up to - who knows, maybe it will work.

I'll give it a try tonight.

David

Most 1920x1200 panels use reduced blanking interval to fit 1920x1200@60Hz within 165MHz. There's no retrace so the typical V/H blankings are not needed.

I guess that's another reason to go with HDMI- it has a larger bandwidth as well, doesn't it (350 MHz?)? Well, besides the audio and longer cable runs.

Originally posted by wjchan
Most 1920x1200 panels use reduced blanking interval to fit 1920x1200@60Hz within 165MHz. There's no retrace so the typical V/H blankings are not needed.

Can those parameters be manipulated e.g. with the Powerstrip?
How flexible they are? E.g. would it be possible to change from
60Hz to 48Hz? (For movies...)

I would be very interested to see how Dschamis goes with his attempts at 1920x1200 through DVI. Maybe there is a certain Powerstrip setting which will enable it. That would be wonderful news.

Originally posted by mizu
I would be very interested to see how Dschamis goes with his attempts at 1920x1200 through DVI. Maybe there is a certain Powerstrip setting which will enable it. That would be wonderful news.

Mizu,

I didn't have time to do it last night - it is on the agenda for tonight.

I will report back.

David

Unless you have really old Catalyst driver, your ATI card should be doing 1920x1200 automatically if your monitor's EDID has a 1920x1200 entry in it. It's not in the EDID either a) the manufacturer screwed up, or b) the monitor doesn't do 1920x1200 over DVI. If it's a, PowerStrip tweaking should get around it.

Originally posted by wjchan
Unless you have really old Catalyst driver, your ATI card should be doing 1920x1200 automatically if your monitor's EDID has a 1920x1200 entry in it. It's not in the EDID either a) the manufacturer screwed up, or b) the monitor doesn't do 1920x1200 over DVI. If it's a, PowerStrip tweaking should get around it.


I have a strong feeling that its going to be (b), since that's what all LG's documentation says, but its still worth a shot.


David

If you are going to attempt this on your LG panel, try to use the "Plu N Play" display driver for windows. This allows you all range of resolutions and lets your monitor decide if it can do it (rather than the OS). For my Samsung 240T I use this driver to run 1920x1200 DVI. If I use the provided Samsung driver I a limited to XGA DVI resolutions (1280x1024 or whatever).
Also, I have been using Catalyst 3.7 for months at 1920x1200 DVI. I just upgraded this week to 4.2 but I just wanted to let you guys know that even older ATI drivers should run it fine in high rez DVI.


D

OK - I am excited to give this a shot.

Do I need to worry about damaging the monitor if I'm running at a resolution that isn't specified?

If it does work, why would they say it doesn't?

David

dscharmis

> Do I need to worry about damaging the monitor if I'm running at a resolution that isn't specified?

Not 100% sure about that at all. However, logically, my understanding is that damage could only be done if:
- there is a signal of excess power to fry your delicate circuitry
- the monitor is forced to do something radically outside it's capabilities (eg. forced into an weird refresh rate or weird resolution.)

The LG is physically capable of supporting a range or resolutions and refresh rates as I am sure you are aware. It seems the reason that it can't support 1920x1200 in DVI is purely because of a DVI limitation since it can support the analogue 1920x1200 mode. This is most likely because of a well-documented bottleneck in bandwidth. So there isn't an 'excess' of anything. If it can support it in analogue, it should physically be capable of doing the same thing with a sufficient digital signal.

Having said that, know that I have no grounding in any of this stuff and work in an industry far removed from computers and electronics. If you were to try, please make sure that you have a warranty. We would feel terrible if you were to damage your new toy.


> If it does work, why would they say it doesn't?

For a long time, Samsung also insisted that their 240T did not support WUXGA with DVI. Some of their staff members who had a strong presence in user forums stated unofficially that it WAS indeed supported, and also the technical reasons why. This was in response to people wondering why it worked after testing it by unclicking the default "hide unsupported modes" option in the monitor section of display properties to try. All (without exception) who had previously used analogue give testament to the remarkable improvement in clarity and picture through a clean digital signal. Hopefully, the LG will undergo similar public revelations. The western market seems to be showing a latent interest, but it's still difficult finding a forum user who has the product. Indeed you are the first I've encountered.

question: how do I quote properly?

Zac

Well - I'm sitting here behind my computer. I've run DVI to the LG, and am using the Plug & Play monitor instead of the LG, and it still won't go above 1600x1200 - it seems to know not even to try.

Any ideas?

Is it even worth it to try Powerstrip?

dschamis:

Try what Zac suggested, and unclick the "Hide modes that this monitor cannot display" box under advanced properties -> monitor.

I can do this, but then I get a resolution that doesn't fit the screen - in other words it scrolls left to right.

Originally posted by dschamis
I can do this, but then I get a resolution that doesn't fit the screen - in other words it scrolls left to right.

This may indicate that Powerstrip could help by changing timing
data. However, I do not know the details how to make this.

Another issue: Are you sure that your graphics adapter supports
1920x1200@DVI well? There were reports that not all adapters do
and some are much better than others.

Some online retailers claim to have the 243T in stock, but I still haven't seen one in the flesh. The first one who gets one, bump this thread.

What laptop do you have?

dschamis, what may be holding you back is your video card. What are you running? I have heard many NVIDIA cards have had issues running this rez in the past. I know ATI cards newer than 8500 should do it fine. I myself am using a 9800 Pro. If you used the Plug N Play Driver when you go to display properties can you even choose 1900x1200? Or is 1600x1200 or something else your maximum (on the little bar of resolutions that scrolls right and left)? Also, I don't think you need to check that box for allowing all resolutions, the monitor driver should be enough.

One last option is in powerstrip. You can create your own monitor driver (I think it is in the "top" menu near adapter properties. It may be called "display properties" or something (I am doing this from memory). You can have powerstrip creat a monitor driver for you, and you can specify allowable maximum resolutions and frequencies.

If all else fails try the newest drivers for your graphics card. I had some weird issues a few days ago where i couldn't run DVI 1900x1200 on my 240T (after using it in this DVI mode for months) due to some Ati Hydravision foolery on my part. It would try to run my refresh rate at 144Hz causing my 240T to blank out! I loaded the newest Catalyst drivers (4.2) totally cleaning the driver out (driver heaven driver cleaner) and now can run this beautiful rez in DVI once again! Good luck,

D

dnavarro77,

I am using an ATI 9600SE, although I do have access to a 9800PRO through a friend.

As far as what happened, when I choose Plug and Play, I am able to pick a higher resolution, but when I do, the desktop doesn't fit the screen. In other words, if I move the mouse from left to right, it actually scrolls back and forth. I need to find some way to scale to the native res of the monitor.

I'm pretty sure I am using all the latest ATI drivers, since I just installed this video card two weeks ago (up until now I had been using an AIW 9700PRO, which is a whole different story).

I've tried Powerstrip before but found it difficult to use. Is there an easy way to do what you're sugegsting? I probably didn't spend enough time with it - looks like now is the time to spend the time!

David

Well, to tell you the truth a little fooling around with powerstrip will take you a long way. I would also look at your ATI display settings (under advanced in the display properties). Maybe there is something set that resizes the desktop in the "scrolling" mode you seem to be seeing. I would think doing a custom driver in PS may be worthwhile. Alternatively, you may want to use another general LCD driver with a high max rez. I know if you search "all hardware" instead of "compatible hardware" in the "update driver" section of your monitor (system, hardware devices area) you have many option to chose from.

As far as custom timings and resolutions go, this is a cool feature of PS (I use it for an HDTV), I know they have LCD custom timings that may also help. Unfortunately I am at work so i cannot recall the steps on choosing a custom rez, except going to the "display profiles" section. Then at the bottom right corner is an advanced timing or such setting that gives you the options. However, they have many predefined custom rez's and I am sure once you get in there you can just select the one you want and click "apply" (some rez's require a reboot).

Anyways I think your 9600 should suffice in this. Of course changing to the 9800 may not be a bad idea. I think this may just be a project that requires some troubleshooting as these high rez, "cutting edge" DVI monitors aren't exactly used by many. In addition, Samsung didn't even my 240T could do 1900x1200 DVI for a while! So obviously you are in a bit of "unexplored" area here with your LG panel. Good luck,

D

Originally posted by dschamis
dnavarro77,
In other words, if I move the mouse from left to right, it actually scrolls back and forth. David

I'vve seen this before- I believe what you're getting is called "virtual desktop" and you can get it by sending a resolution to the monitor that's higher than the "supposed" highest resolution the monitor can handle.

Virtual desktop can be very useful in some cases, especially with a smaller screen- but it's just a PITA for your purposes right now.

(I also have the 240t)

Dave

I spent a long time on this today without any success - I'm feeling like I'm fresh out of ideas.

To the 240T people out there - how did you figure out that you could go 1920x1200 DVI? What steps did you take to do so?

David

KevinYee & Rogo,

Lindy now has a 2 Port HDCP compliant DVI Switch.

Go to the top of the following thread and download the pdf description.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3191127#post3191127

If you want to order go to

http://www.lindy.com

and pick the USA site.

:)

after reading thru all the information (good information i might add guys) that later on in this year there will be a new "generation" of these 23/24 LCD monitors/tvs that will have a 16ms response time be as efficient as a Dell FP2001 as far as pc monitors.

This is what im waiting for and i cant wait!

The best screen is the one that you'll buy in 6 months time ;)

I guess that goes for computers as well. If it's to be released later on this year for you US people that means us Australians won't have it until 2005.

Of course, by then I'll be reading about the upcoming dirt cheap, low power, high quality OLEDs, LCOS', etc. Once it's confirmed that the LG2320a can't do digital WUXGA I reckon I'm gonna get the 243T.

What about the DVI inputs on these 1920 x 1200 panels, are any of them HDCP compliant? Does it matter? Will these panels have any problems with playing back DVI outputted video from a DVD player or DSS STB? Or will the DVI input only work connected to a video card with DVI output?
Thanks

Originally posted by mburnstein
What about the DVI inputs on these 1920 x 1200 panels, are any of them HDCP compliant? Does it matter? Will these panels have any problems with playing back DVI outputted video from a DVD player or DSS STB? Or will the DVI input only work connected to a video card with DVI output?
Thanks

These are computer monitors and are not intended to be HDCP compliant.

I think that for primary use with DVD or STB one should look for other
displays.

Hello irkuck,
I wonder why these 1920x1200 monitors shouldn't be a solution for full resolution 1080p HDTV signals, assuming the 1080i to 1080p can occur by panel or before panel? So why not assume or hope that Samsung will make these HDCP compliant for 243T? Are the LG and other 1920x1200 panels with DVI inputs HDCP compliant? I wonder if the FP231W BenQ will be?
Otherwise it seems the highest resolution of LCD DVI-HDCP panels is 1280 x 768 by samsung and others, correct? Any other panels with resolutions greater than 1280x768 and DVI-HDCP, such as 1600x1200??
Thanks

Originally posted by mburnstein
Hello irkuck,
I wonder why these 1920x1200 monitors shouldn't be a solution for full resolution 1080p HDTV signals, assuming the 1080i to 1080p can occur by panel or before panel? So why not assume or hope that Samsung will make these HDCP compliant for 243T? Are the LG and other 1920x1200 panels with DVI inputs HDCP compliant? I wonder if the FP231W BenQ will be?
Otherwise it seems the highest resolution of LCD DVI-HDCP panels is 1280 x 768 by samsung and others, correct? Any other panels with resolutions greater than 1280x768 and DVI-HDCP, such as 1600x1200??
Thanks

I don't know the answer to your question but that FP231W BenQ sounds awesome! This is what im waiting for a 16ms response time ~23 inch LCD WS Monitor.

"FP231W The first 23-inch LCD monitor introduced by BenQ, the FP231W features a 16:9 aspect ratio, 16ms response time and a full 16.7 million color palette for exceptionally large, clear and bright images. It boasts a native resolution of 1920 x 1200, along with contrast ratio of 500:1 and a brightness of 250 cd/m2. The FP231W comes with USB2.0 and D-sub, DVI-D/S Video and Composite input connectors. Options include a 4Wx2 speaker attachment."

Originally posted by mburnstein
Hello irkuck,
I wonder why these 1920x1200 monitors shouldn't be a solution for full resolution 1080p HDTV signals, assuming the 1080i to 1080p can occur by panel or before panel? So why not assume or hope that Samsung will make these HDCP compliant for 243T? Are the LG and other 1920x1200 panels with DVI inputs HDCP compliant? I wonder if the FP231W BenQ will be?
Otherwise it seems the highest resolution of LCD DVI-HDCP panels is 1280 x 768 by samsung and others, correct? Any other panels with resolutions greater than 1280x768 and DVI-HDCP, such as 1600x1200??
Thanks

One reason why 1920x1200 monitors should not be considered
solution for full 1080p is that they are just NOT, repeat NOT, 1080:D
They are 1200! With 1080p signal they would not be using the additional
120 lines of their real estate. So it is unlikely that HDCP it will come
to those monitors.

If you wish to have full 1080p you have to wait till later this year when 1920x1080 LCD displays will come. They in turn are not intended for the
desktop since their size starts from 45". But who knows, maybe they will
fit oversized desktop:D

Time to re-open this informative thread...

Any word on the availability of the FP231W? I'm debating the 243T, waiting for the FP231W (for it's fast response time) or bagging it all, saving $1700, and getting a Dell 2001FP.

If the FP231W is available now (or very soon) in the $2500 range, I'll probably splurge and go that route...

-tony

I am looking also!

There is another 23" that is available now, and the specs are very much like the LG L2320A. It's the HP L2335, also 1920x1200, and also saying it has a component input. I am not sure if that means it can accept component outpus from a cable HD tuner box, like a TWC SA 3100HD to play 1080i or 720P signals.

The HP is priced near the Apple 23" cinema HD display, which has 1 input, the Apple ADC.

If anyone has the HP L2335, please help us!

How does it play 1080i or 720P from cable, OTA, and DVD? Does it scale the signals? If so, what about artifacts? If it doesn't scale, are the borders easy to live with?

Thanks!

Paul
Forest Hills, NY

I have the Samsung 240T, and am using it at 1920x1200 at 60hz through an ATI AIW 8500 on my HTPC. The picture quality for TV, or for DVD, is outstanding, way better than a Rear Projection HDTV I had from Mitsubishi (46"). One major drawback is the lack of two DVI inputs and/or any component inputs.

I have the unsupported modes box unchecked. When the 240T model first came out, there was a problem with the monitor's DVI port supporting 1920x1200, but it was fixed in later versions.

Earl

Anchorage, AK

After lots of tinkering, I cannot get the LG L2320A to do DVI @ 1920 x 1200.

Anyone have any better ideas? How did people figure this out on the 240T?

David

Hmmm. Does Win XP see your monitor as the correct type? The 240T was plug and play, so Win XP immediately saw it as a "Samsung SyncMaster 240T(Digital)". It didn't immediately jump to the native resolution, so I unchecked the box "Hide modes that this monitor cannot display" in advanced settings, and then it was available. Now, I'm only used to ATI drivers, since I've been using ATI cards for the last 5 years. I'm not sure where that would be in a Nvidia control panel extension.

There was a .inf file located on the Samsung webpage, but I didn't need it.

dschamis, not sure if this is much help. I'm using Catalyst 4.1, and after unchecking the box, the standard Settings tab lets me set my screen resolution all the way up to 2048 x 1536.

Earl,

What HD cable box are you using with your 240T? Is it with a DVI cable box output? I have tried a Time Warner cable Pioneer HD box with DVI outputs to my Apple Cinema display with DVI computer inputs, and that doesn't work.

The LG and now HP L2335, on the other hand, have component (3 RCA) inputs that works (I've heard) with HD cable boxes that have those 3 component outputs. I guess those same component outputs can also accomdate a DVD player.

Does the 240T has other inputs? If not, how many inputs does your computer card have?

Thanks,

Paul

Is it possible the HP L2335 is a LG made panel? Same contrast rating. Seems like a great deal $$.

Originally posted by dschamis
After lots of tinkering, I cannot get the LG L2320A to do DVI @ 1920 x 1200.

Anyone have any better ideas? How did people figure this out on the 240T?

David I don't think people "figured it out". I believe it was a Samsung product improvement (fix, etc.). Early 240T's only supported max resolution via the analog VGA input, and then later is was possible via the DVI connector.

I'm still wondering if anyone has actually gotten their hands on a 243T- that's the panel I'm interested in purchasing, but not until I get some sort of review. Don't want to be the guinea pig. :D

Anyone knows about the dead or dis-colored pixel policies of LG and Samsung?

Extreme Tech has a good article on DVI technology, "Making Digital Flat Panels Better" (but this is my first post so I can't give the link): "Today's DVI 1.0 spec specifies a maximum single-channel bandwidth of 165MHz. This is good enough to support a 1600x1200 display in most cases, including CRTs refreshing at 60Hz." That makes it sound as if 1920x1200 at 60 Hz is NOT possible over a single link, and indeed many cards can barely do 1600x1200. Yet I saw the Apple 23" Cinema Display at 1920x1200 plugged into a PC with a mid-range GeForce in a store.

I thought it was possible to have two TMDS links in a single DVI cable, but that article makes it sound as if it isn't, you h ave to go to two DVI connectors (!!). There are also companies like Siliconix making much faster link silicon. Either way, for this to work, your graphics card, cabling, and monitor all have to support the higher rate. And I doubt any enthusiast site can afford the $70,000 oscilloscope to do meaningful DVI quality testing.

:( It's depressing that with all the smoke and mirrors right now you can't get a simple straight answer on whether a multi-thousand-dollar display will actually run at its claimed resolution with your graphics card. Meanwhile the useless acronyms like QUWZXGA pile up, and Circuit City claims 15" LCD's are High-Definition TV monitors :mad:

--
=S

The fact that the 1920x1200 Apple Cinema Display can function with as tiny as a 32MB dedicated video card at that full 1920x1200 certainly does throw a lot of those theories out the window.

Paul,

I haven't signed up for GCI HD Cable yet, the only channels advertised are Bravo and Showtime HD, not sure if they have the regular channels HD. Waiting till I move in June to switch. The box GCI uses is the Motorola DCT6208, which has DVI, Component, Composite, and S-Video outs. From what I've read on this site though, is to get true HDTV, I need to be using the DVI or Component, the Composite or S-Video wouldn't do it.

The 240T has DVI, VGA, S-Video, and Composite inputs, one each. No component though. I suppose I could use VGA from my ATI card, and then use the DVI for the cable box, but don't want to give up the great computer output from DVI. But the 240T is not HDCP compliant, so I don't think that it will work in the future if the set top boxes require it.

Earl

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Anyone knows about the dead or dis-colored pixel policies of LG and Samsung?

I'm in Melbourne and rang LG Australia, Samsung Australia and Benq Australia regarding this with replies as follows (for their 23-24" models):

LG - 6 or more dead pixels (not including subpixels) is their official stand. Unhelpful staff with no clue about their product. Had some trouble convincing them it even existed (isn't on their Australian website) and is available through local resellers. Eventually someone found it on the inventory list. Cautiously warned me that warranty was voided if tried to attempt 1920x1200 through DVI - after getting a bit lost when questioned about "reduced blanking intervals" ... uh ... obviously no idea what they were talking about. Did not bother replying my email containing some pretty straightforward questions.

Samsung - ZERO dead pixel tolerance for 19 - 24" range! Was told this by a guy currently testing the first batch of 243Ts in Australia. He actually knew what he was talking about and told me about all the previous generations of 240Ts (and confirmed the later ones share the same panel as 243T). Why don't guys like this hang out on these forums to dispell/confirm myths and rumours? Read elsewhere that zero dead pixel tolerance policy may only hold for 7 days. Sounds like enough time to thoroughly test anyway.

Benq - helpful but unsure re FP231W pixel policy. Confirmed that is 16ms and will accept composite/s-video. Only picture I could find was a "live from CES" preview at gizmodo site with cool looking webcam. Google it up. Benq sent me proposed specs to be confirmed and informed is supposed to be due "roughly" in April. No mention about DVI/resolution limitation. Just states capable of WUXGA and receives analog/digital signals. I'm guessing this will be expensive.

I actually ordered 243T ($AU3999) a short while ago but cancelled order after finding out that the 16ms Benq could accept composite/s-video and is expected around April. Also I prefer black bezel (to go with a Shuttle SB75G2 )and first bunch of 243Ts only come in silver in Australia. If FP231W is confirmed as incapable of DVI@WUXGA, I'll just reorder the 243T and stick with that. At least there's competent tech-support if I run into trouble. Pity that LG sell themselves short with poor staff/lack of info. They have such a nice looking monitor.

Zero dead pixel tolerance - way to go Samsung! Official dead pixel policies should match ISO 13406-2 standard but most manufacturers don't. Tomshardware has article on dead pixel policies of different brands "Penalty: An Autopsy Of Dead LCD Pixels".

Zac
Melbourne

Zac,

Thanks!

I read the Tomshardware article, in short not pretty. As for the dead pixels, they do pop up over time, so a longer warranty period for them helps. Does the 243T have component inputs and DVI-HDCP support directly from a HD cable box?

Paul

That HP L2335 23 inch panel you mentioned takes component HDTV plus 480i component plus S video in addition to DVI and VGA--too bad "only" 350:1 contrast ratio!! And retails at $1700! Anyone have or see this panel??

Mark,

The LG also has all the same inputs but a higher contrast rating at 400:1.
Where did you find the 480i info?

Paul

I believe I saw it on HP's site, about interlaced component as well as progressive component.

Originally posted by mburnstein
http://www.samsung.com/Products/Sem...view_200403.pdf

samsung has a march 2004 catalog on-line. the 1920x1080 panel is listed.

try again link dont work.

http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/Support/ebrochure/tftlcd/wiseview_200403.pdf

The link works as long as the samsung server isn't too busy. It works for me.

The Samsung info does not specifically say what happens when it display 1920x1080 (1080i) HD signals. Does it stretch it to fill the panel's native 1920x1200 or display 1920x1080 with top and bottom black borders? (or white borders)

Paul -

I have a Samsung 240T and there are options in the menu to do both -- i.e. stretch the 1920x1080 to fit 1920x1200 AND display it unstretched -- 1920x1080 (slight black bars on top and bottom of screen obviously).

It does a good job at stretching.... so I usually leave it in that mode.

Aaron

Aaron,

Have you compared the 240T with the LG 2320A ?

Paul

Paul -

I've had my 240T for 2 years now -- and the LG wasn't out then, so I haven't compared the two -- havent even seen the LG live yet.....

I can say that my 240T is an *amazing* monitor!

Aaron

The 243T's will be released in 3 weeks. Interesting how the 243T and the BenQ will compare. Later Fujitsu wil have a 1920x1200 22 inch panel. That HP L2335 is a grat price but spec-wise and appearance probably ranks lower than the other WUXGA LCD in the 23-24 inch size.

Aaron,

If you can see the LG or the new HP 2335, please let us know your impressions.


Mark,

Specs like contrast are not always reliable on LCD panels; unlike measurements like weight and dimensions. Since only 2 companies manufacture these LCD screens these days (LG Philips and Samsung), perhaps the major difference will be the back-lighting sub system.

The LG2320 has finally been reviewed by CNET in Asia here:

http://asia.cnet.com/reviews/hardware/monitors/0,39007117,39018363p,00.htm

The HP L2335 is still too new to have been reviewed. If anyone out here has seen it, please let us know how evenly lit, and how the scaler is for HD sources. At 1700, I am sure many here wants one for every room in the house.

Paul

Originally posted by mburnstein
The 243T's will be released in 3 weeks. Interesting how the 243T and the BenQ will compare. Later Fujitsu wil have a 1920x1200 22 inch panel. That HP L2335 is a grat price but spec-wise and appearance probably ranks lower than the other WUXGA LCD in the 23-24 inch size.

Good to know, thanks. I was looking at the spec sheet for the panel and unfortunately it doesn't look like the latest PVA technology has filtered up to the 24" WS panels yet. They are still listing the response time at <30ms, which is what it's been for a while now. Some of the newer panels are 16ms or even 8ms(!) on the new LCD TVs. Hoepfully that will do a lot towards reducing the motion blur with fast pans and action. Just the same I can't wait until someone actually gets a chance to personally review a 243T (so I can feel OK going out and getting one for myself).

orogogus, you can head down to Fry's and they will stock them as soon as they are released. I was just there looking for the 243Ts the other day.

Yeah, I've already had that particular idea but up til now nothing in stock. I've never seen the 240Ts for that matter there in stock neither (even though they do have a large selection of Samsung monitors in general). I've already 'demoed' the Sony 23" WS panel and found it to be... a good monitor for static work (go, go screen real estate!). It's PQ on moving images wasn't quite there yet and it's price tag is still too high methinks. Waiting on the slightly larger, newer, less expensive, and more aesthetically pleasing (smaller bezel) 243T.

Mark, where did your info on the 3-week release date of the 243T's come from? Some online stores (e.g. Macmall) claim to have them in stock already...

Thanks.

-tony

I've seen the response time listed on the 243T as 25ms, so I'm not too sure it is going to perform much better than the sony model you saw. 25ms on my 21 inch LCD, is pretty pathetic when it comes to attempting to watch a DVD or play games. It is great for photoshop and websurfing, but until you get to that 16ms, I'm not sure that I would get one of these guys for HDTV viewing or DVDs....I'm getting one purely for digital image maniuplation, not HDTV. If that motion blur, ghosting and other LCD artifacts bug you, then it could be that you may want to wait another 6 months for improved models...just a matter of time before they make the 24 inchers with a 16ms response time.

Originally posted by tbacos
Mark, where did your info on the 3-week release date of the 243T's come from? Some online stores (e.g. Macmall) claim to have them in stock already...

Thanks.

-tony
I called digitalconnection.com
The distributor told them 3 weeks. Plenty of online sites have been showing stock, where non exists.

Originally posted by Doc Tonic
25ms on my 21 inch LCD, is pretty pathetic when it comes to attempting to watch a DVD or play games. It is great for photoshop and websurfing, but until you get to that 16ms, I'm not sure that I would get one of these guys for HDTV viewing or DVDs....I'm getting one purely for digital image maniuplation, not HDTV. If that motion blur, ghosting and other LCD artifacts bug you, then it could be that you may want to wait another 6 months for improved models...just a matter of time before they make the 24 inchers with a 16ms response time.

I have a Sony VAIO with 16.1" 1600x1200 screen. I'm not sure about the pixel response but given that it's an early 2003 model, I'm sure it's something hideous like >30ms. The horrific ghosting on any fast motion games does funny things to my vestibular system - fully makes my brain feel like jelly after about 1/2 hour of playing. However, DVDs, HDTV and any video clips including HD-WMV and HD-DivXs seem to run very well. The screen real estate of course is beautiful to work with in photoshop.

Bumpin this again in hopes that someone has seen the HP L2335 in person. At almost a grand less than the others, it's verrrry tempting, but not until I at least hear from *someone* who has seen one...

-tony

Originally posted by mizu
I have a Sony VAIO with 16.1" 1600x1200 screen. I'm not sure about the pixel response but given that it's an early 2003 model, I'm sure it's something hideous like >30ms. The horrific ghosting on any fast motion games does funny things to my vestibular system - fully makes my brain feel like jelly after about 1/2 hour of playing. However, DVDs, HDTV and any video clips including HD-WMV and HD-DivXs seem to run very well. The screen real estate of course is beautiful to work with in photoshop.


Your 16inch is much smaller than a 21 inch..the smaller panels have much better response times, which is why your video runs more smoothly. We are all hoping the larger 24 inch and up displays catch up with the smaller screen technology

Still searching everywhere from Singapore to the UK for an early review of the HP L2335. Still nothing.

$1700 is vey tempting, as Tony says. There are now many reviews of the LG L2320A, and are mostly very good. Main issue with it has been the jerky motion on non-HDTV video. For those who have seen it at HD 1080i converted to 1200 lines (as have I), it's beautiful. Channel 706 on TWC in NYC of Discovery-HD is demo quality. With all the 3-dimensional fluidity of a large Fujitsu plasma panel reduced to a 23" screen. At 2.5 feet from the screen, as from an average desktop, this is some experience.

If the HP L2335 screen is also produced by LG. I am certain that the difference should not be Heaven and Earth. If it's Samsung's, perhaps there is a big difference.

Thanks everyone for looking into this.

Paul

Paul, I'm getting really close to just biting the bullet on the HP L2335 myself. Very difficult to actually find this monitor...even here silicon valley, where I live down the block from HP...

Doc, Maybe you can go during lunch today and poke around HP. I am sure they have some investors' relation department where they might present the latest gizmos. Better yet, Call HP to see if there is a small business kiosks around headquarters. I try calling HP and found that only the business division carries the L2335, and HP.COM doesn't. The answering service said that there are small business centers in California; just not any near my town.

If PC Mall had a 30 day no question asked return policy, my unit would have been on its way. I don't believe HP Small Business has such a policy either.

If you can go; that would be great for all of us!


Paul

Yesterday I saw the Samsung 243T on display at Fry's Electronics in Fountain Valley, CA. The monitor looked pretty beautiful, however it had some heavy ghosting issues when I ran a few DirectX demos on it. I think it would be excellent for Photoshop, but I think I'd personally wait until 16ms or better are the norm.

Ahh its at Fry's now...I'll swing by and check it out. I suspected that 25ms on this big boy was going to be insufficient for motion video. My feeling is if this one is not good enough then the HP will be worse. Which means, for the $$$ and since both are going to be bad with video, it looks like the best bet may be the HP until we get the next generation of 24 inchers.

Doc,

Can you check if the 243T has a set of component HDTV inputs? It was not listed in the Fry's details.

Thanks

Paul

If 25ms doesn't cut it for video (I'll head down to Fry's and see for myself as well), I may just "settle" for a smaller screen and pick up the 16ms Dell 2001FP 20 incher for $799 next time they run a 20% coupon. If 16ms 23-24" widescreens are out within a year, I can ebay the dell and jump on board then. I just can't justify spending $2k for a monitor and not feeling like it's practically perfect...

-tony

Word!

Guys, anyone went to Frys for the L2335 or 243T?

As for the L2335, I found this at the Compaq Business PC site:

http://h20015.www2.hp.com/hub_search/document.jhtml?lc=en&docName=c00043202

This clearly states that 1920x1080 is a preset setting. So perhaps no stretching with HD native signals.

Paul

don't forget the BenQ FP231W due out late April/May Paul!!

Mark,

Who manufactures the LCD for BenQ?
Paul

BenQ tells me they make the panels!

i was waiting to get one of these WS monitors but bit the bullet and got the dell fp2001 for 750 last night. shipped today. cant wait.

"BenQ tells me they make the panels!"

I think they lie. They have no LCD plant, AFAIK.

As far as I have read; perhaps not that far.....

Only Korea's LG & Samsung and Japan's Sharp makes the actual LCD panels.

I could be wrong.

Paul

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Doc,

Can you check if the 243T has a set of component HDTV inputs? It was not listed in the Fry's details.

Thanks

Paul

It doesn't have any type of inputs, outside of the VGA and DVI inputs.

The manual is also on Samsung's website.

Originally posted by Doc Tonic
Your 16inch is much smaller than a 21 inch..the smaller panels have much better response times, which is why your video runs more smoothly. We are all hoping the larger 24 inch and up displays catch up with the smaller screen technology

The 16 inch has poor pixel response by today's standards given it's early release time. In parallel with other screens of its time, the absolute *best* it would be is 25ms. This is also evident in it's fast-motion gaming abilities: appalling! Video, including HDTV, runs fine though. It is my subjective opinion that video exerts less demand on an LCDs pixel response (than fast-motion games) for adequate performance.

There is a new 23" that is nearly out that HAS caught up (well, not to the new superfast 12ms ones - I guess small will always be a step ahead). It is at CE shows and seems to be undergoing the final phases before distribution to the masses. I rang Benq and they sent me a specs table (consistent with press releases) confirming that the FP231W is 16ms. Guys, if gaming matters, this looks like the one to get. If you just wanna watch video, the Samsung 243T is probably the way to go - it's a bit bigger too, and by all accounts, the picture quality (in its native res) is brilliant.

so we wait to see how the video quality of the BenQ FP231W will be compared to Samsung 243T. If the MSRP of $1999 from press announcement in jan. is accurate, then the BenQ will make the HP L2335 less valuable. See to be determined are the types of conenctions supported by BenQ 23 incher.

Gettin' itchy for that HP L2335 also. Am i seeing things or does the spec sheet say it has a 16ms typical response time?

http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/11868_ca/11868_ca.HTML

Yes, it does say 16ms for response time, but is that the refresh rate that is standardized across all panels?

If it is 16ms refresh, then this baby's got nearly the best specs around. It certainly has better specs than the Apple 23" or the Sony 23".

I think a review by one of the main computer sites should be up soon.

Paul

That "typical" 16ms sounds almost too good to be true. The HP site says less than 25 ms, which could mean 16ms, but we'll just have to find someone who can see this puppy...anyone else want to join me as I bang on HPs doors?

http://www.hp.cz/pc/monitory/performance/pdf/l2335_datasheet_en.pdf

Get the Samsung!
I have had the 240T for over 2 years and it is super.
I also use a MyHD card with a DVI output into the 240T, awesome picture!

If 16ms typical response for the HP really is true, and the rest of the image quality is there as well, I don't see how the new 243T or the LG L2320A will sell at all. Their current prices are each about $1000 more than the HP, and the only spec that they may have over the HP is contrast ratio, which I think we all know is often very misleading.

First one to post a link to a L2335 review wins!

-tony

I agree about the contrast ratio, I completely ignore all contrast ratio specs. Sadly our local Fry's will not be carrying the HP, at least that is what the sales guy told me, as he tried to push me on the samsung. ...so I'm not sure how we bay area folk are going to be able to see this thing.

Originally posted by rogo
"BenQ tells me they make the panels!"

I think they lie. They have no LCD plant, AFAIK.

Methinks the Benq is probably Chi mei or AUO glass (scaler, etc., may come from elsewhere though).

Originally posted by tbacos
If 16ms typical response for the HP really is true, and the rest of the image quality is there as well, I don't see how the new 243T or the LG L2320A will sell at all. Their current prices are each about $1000 more than the HP, and the only spec that they may have over the HP is contrast ratio, which I think we all know is often very misleading.

The LG seems geared towards AV with it's media box and stylish design. The Samsung has it's PQ and name behind it.

I wonder who makes the Benq LCDs. There are numerous google references to Benq "manufacturing plants" in Malaysia, Mexico, China and Taiwan, but they don't seem to clarify if they manufacture the glass/panels themselves in these plants. http://www.benq.com/news/20040108-displays.html

Can't help feeling bit sceptical about that HP 16ms claim. I don't like the "typical" in brackets, or the fact that the official site doesnt support the claim. Also, if it were really 16ms, wouldn't they'd be waving that around with a big banner? It could be the clincher for a lot of people deliberating between it and rival products.

Please post any reviews to the HP, Samsung or Benq on this thread.

Hello,

Is there a 1920x1200 LCD display that has component inputs AND a DVI or HDMI input that is HDCP compliant? Eventually HD-DVDs are coming and I wondering if any of these supermonitors is going to be able to handle the new format.

How well do the Samsung 211MP or the 241MP scale 480p DVD?

Best regards,

Paul Bigelow

Paul,

No to the HDCP, although I think you can get an external box that will do the job. These are expensive though.

I think the HD-DVD will have a set of component output to not totally screw early adaptors to HDTV.

Paul

I'm wondering about that. As it is, one has to get the Momitsu / Liteon to get component out *upconverted* 480p signals. If the MPAA and manufacturers are that paranoid then I can't see how they are going to allow HD-DVD via component. Maybe they will.

Anything out of component are no longer digital, so an exact copy cannot be made. The studios should be happy with that.

I think component I/Os will be available. If not, then I'll have to get new TV's in a few years.

PCMall, which had the low price as HP has just hiked the price of the L2335 up by 200 dollars.

Strange in computer world.

Could there be a review out there? Realization by HP that they mis-priced the beast?

All right, I ordered the L2335, as the Samsung does not have component HDTV inputs. And that 1700-1900 price point is enticing.

Wish me luck. Please! No bad pixels; as I will run my pixel check program. Wish me luck, you all!

Should arrive tomorrow! $85 for Fed Ex, OUCH!

whoa, you bit the bullet paul...kudos to you :)

I think you probably made a wise decision given the fact that the samsung doesn't have fabulous response time from what I've seen at Fry's, so the HP with the price difference and "typical 16ms" response time sounds like the best deal.

could you PM where you bought the L2335?

Thanks for being the guinea pig, Paul. :-)

Looking forward to hearing your impressions. My HD card is on the way as we speak, and it's gonna be *begging* for a 23" display...

-tony

First, Doc called me a bullseye, now Tony calls me a pig.

Hey, come on! I am a tad stressed out here waiting for the screen to arrive. I do hope it's not another expensive toy to be relocated into the basement upon delivery.

don't worry Paul that is why we have ebay...

Just to lock in the price before it jumps by $200 like PCMall, I ordered the L2335 from the last remaining online vendor where it was still priced at $1699. It's reported as typically shipping in "two weeks" so if Bullseye err Pig err Paul reports it to be less than perfect I should be able to cancel the order before it ever ships.

Two weeks should be just enough time to figure out how to rig up an "insta-mask" that can drop to cover half of the monitor so if my wife happens by I can try to convince her it's the same 19" CRT monitor we've had forever... :-)

-tony

The HP is an intriguing choice. If used as a standalone TV would it support, HDTV (1080i, 720p) or DVD 480p via the DVI and/or component?

If it's like the LG 2320, it will play HD1080i natively via the component inputs without any computer. Same with DVD players with component wires.

The DVI-D does not work without computer, as we have discussed yesterday.








Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
The HP is an intriguing choice. If used as a standalone TV would it support, HDTV (1080i, 720p) or DVD 480p via the DVI and/or component?

Hey good luck with the HP guys!

Australia doesn't stock it unfortunately but it sounds like a great buy. Please post experience with fast motion gaming, HDTV/high-res video and DVI@WUXGA vs analogue@WUXGA.

Was reading local paper today when my eyes bulged out at an inconspicuous ad for a Philips 23" WUXGA screen claiming to have 16ms, inbuilt universal card reader/display, integrated (ie. crap) speakers, 500:1 contrast, USB2 hub, D-SUB/DVI-I/DVI-D inputs, tilt/swivel.

Yes. 16ms.

The model was called 230W5VS and google showed only a handful of sites (all online resellers), all Australian. Googling 230W5 brought up a few more press releases. How did this one give us the slip?

Cheapest Australian prices found inc tax.
Samsung 243T - $(AU)3969
LG 2320A - $(AU)3899
Philips 230W5VS - $(AU)3477
Benq FP231W - prices "TBA"
HP L2335 - can't find Australian distributor =/

Someone please let me know if you can find cheaper Australian price. I'm happy to point anyone in the direction of resellers of above price.

Interesting. Since it's Phillips (ie LG) it's obviously their panel. If it has the 16ms response time as a spec it could be the first instance of their new panel in a product that I've seen- lucky aussies. The 500:1 CR also is consistent with the new panel's spec.

Panel P/N is LM230W02 and it specs out a 16ms response, and was supposed to go to mass production at the end of '03 (so seeing a product now makes sense), the LM230W01 is the old panel with a 25ms response. Newer panel is specced brighter and with a higher contrast ratio as well (and a better color gamut).

If you end up with something based on this panel, let us know how it handles fast motion (ie games) in addition to video. Might be a contender if I can get it with a black bezel. :D

It's 3am EST, and I am still watching PBS-HD and Discover-HD on my new L2335.

It is B E A U T I F U L !

At 3 feet, you cannot see any LCD grain or artifacts. Very little delay in action sequences. The white is very true! The glacks are still not Fujitsu plasma black. But much better than my 22" Cinema Display, and far better than my 15.4" Dell D800 1920x1200 micro screen.

Best yet. NO B A D P I X E Ls. I ran pixel checker with 6 different colors and scan it with my eye for 30 minuties. Then watch some DVD's like Chicago, then watched Leno....

Now the issues!

1) Signal from SA 3100HD TWC box via the component video inputs shown as 1804x1015, which is perfect ratio (down) of 1920x1080. BUT it fills up the 1920x1200 screen, so I am not sure if the picture is stretched. I didn't think Leno was thinner, but perhaps so. I was un-happy to not see 1920x1080 with top and bottom black borders.

The LG L2320A does this as well.

2) The Auto adjust and other fine screen adjustments does not work for component inputs or DVI-D inputs, only for DVI-A inputs.

3) The buttons in front makes a lot of noise everytime you press it. The quality of the bezel is cheap and lite, not much different from my Dell D800 or any new HP notebooks. Explains the 1000 dollar difference.

4) Analog channels does not scale as good. But DVD's plays exceedingly well using Power-DVD version 5 under Windows XP

5) I do not have a progressive scan DVD player, so cannot review 480P. Will watch ABC-HD this W/E to see how 720P is scaled.

6) No Windows controls of inputs like the LG L2320, as such, I dod worry that those filmsy front buttons will wear out.



330AM, got to get some sleep. Been using the set for 8 hours now, and the top does get hot. The HD color and computer resolution is simply amazing. Next to the Dell D800 and Apple cinema display, it shines!

I had to set the brightness to 69% and contrast to 60%, as it was too bright. Almost plasma like.

Took it to the living room and compared it to my 64" Zenith HDTV qith true 1920x1080 and 9" CRT guns. The LCD is much brighter, and does look a little stretched. So for you purist, this set does not do it!

I will try using my spectrophotometer to adjust the color over the next few weeks.

Sorry for ranting, I am very tired looking for bad pixels and problems.


Paul

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
It's 3am EST, and I am still watching PBS-HD and Discover-HD on my new L2335.
1) Signal from SA 3100HD TWC box via the component video inputs shown as 1804x1015, which is perfect ratio (down) of 1920x1080. BUT it fills up the 1920x1200 screen, so I am not sure if the picture is stretched. I didn't think Leno was thinner, but perhaps so. I was un-happy to not see 1920x1080 with top and bottom black borders.
The LG L2320A does this as well.
2) The Auto adjust and other fine screen adjustments does not work for component inputs or DVI-D inputs, only for DVI-A inputs.
Paul

Have you actually tried to get HD via DVI-D in the actual 1920x1080 size?
As I see it that would require feeding the monitor from PC set to 1920x1200 resolution and then you would see 1920x1080 HD in a window. Of course you
need to have a tuner in your PC to get HD stream and decode it.

It is fine that the monitor has superb picture in component or VGA.

But tour de force of LCD is DVI-D. Then digital picture pixel is precisely driving digital pixel in the display. So the 1920x1080 picture in the 1920x1200 display should be superb even when analyzing it with magnifying glass :D:D:D

What about gaming and ghosting? Please try running some games and let us know how bad the ghosting is?

Thanks,

Clark

Paul Chiu,

Thanks for the thoughts. The floodgates might open here with lots of questions about fast-motion gaming/ghosting and DVI at its native res. I know there are a lot of people interested in panels of this size(23-24")/res(1900x1200) and there aren't many forum threads/sites discussing them. This thread is the reason I joined this forum (when david"dschamis" bought the L2320A, there were questions I just *had* to ask).

There aren't that many tech reviews apart from the older Samsung 240T/241MP and a couple of LG L2320a and there are certainly no tech-site head to head comparisons, which is what everyone's waiting for.

Of all the existing reviews, they ranted about:
-screen real estate
-multibrowsing/viewing 2 x A4
-photoshopping
-CAD
...but they glossed over the (probably mediocre) gaming perspective, HDTV, DVI@WUXGA ability and Powerstrip optimizing/calibration.

It would be great if you could grace this thread with your opinion on these other matters.

Also, how are the rotational drivers? Do you read comics using CDisplay? My first 23-24" is gonna be my all-in-one display.

Zac
Melbourne

Tony,

There is no way you can fool your honey with this monitor/HDTV as the HD picture will get her attention. Unless you can quickly switch to regular video.

The panel itself isn't as beautiful as the Sony or LG, but the picture is better than Sony's, and after watching it, doing Excel, running Bloomberg, writing email and Word docs, the DVI-D at 1920x1200 picture is as good as a EIZO CG21, which means it's incredible. The HD 1080i video is as good as the LG.

Again, I still cannot find a bad pixel. I'll stop looking, as I do not wish to return this.

Good luck with the wide.....





Originally posted by tbacos

Two weeks should be just enough time to figure out how to rig up an "insta-mask" that can drop to cover half of the monitor so if my wife happens by I can try to convince her it's the same 19" CRT monitor we've had forever... :-)

-tony

Zac and others.

I only do TV
HDTV
Excel and other Office apps
Photoshop CS
Nikon Capture 4
Bloomberg
Tradestation

on my PC's, so cannot help you guys on gaming.

If there is some link where I can run some benchmarks easily, I will do it for you all.

Paul



Originally posted by mizu
Paul Chiu,

Thanks for the thoughts. The floodgates might open here with lots of questions about fast-motion gaming/ghosting and DVI at its native res. I know there are a lot of people interested in panels of this size(23-24")/res(1900x1200) and there aren't many forum threads/sites discussing them. This thread is the reason I joined this forum (when david"dschamis" bought the L2320A, there were questions I just *had* to ask).

There aren't that many tech reviews apart from the older Samsung 240T/241MP and a couple of LG L2320a and there are certainly no tech-site head to head comparisons, which is what everyone's waiting for.

Of all the existing reviews, they ranted about:
-screen real estate
-multibrowsing/viewing 2 x A4
-photoshopping
-CAD
...but they glossed over the (probably mediocre) gaming perspective, HDTV, DVI@WUXGA ability and Powerstrip optimizing/calibration.

It would be great if you could grace this thread with your opinion on these other matters.

Also, how are the rotational drivers? Do you read comics using CDisplay? My first 23-24" is gonna be my all-in-one display.

Zac
Melbourne

irkuck,

I would love to see true 1920x1080 on the panel as the PC 1920x1200 looks real good now. The Panel's internal scaler does the 1920x1080 to 1804x1015 and filling the entire screen in an excellent fashion, but stretched.

I do not have a HDTV card, as I don't know of one that would work for me, as my cable provideer Time Warner NY encode their signals via QAM.

If you know how to get 1920x1080 with some card, please PLEASE let me know. Please also let me know if I can record HD stuff on my now useless D-VHS recorder.

Paul



Originally posted by irkuck
Have you actually tried to get HD via DVI-D in the actual 1920x1080 size?
As I see it that would require feeding the monitor from PC set to 1920x1200 resolution and then you would see 1920x1080 HD in a window. Of course you
need to have a tuner in your PC to get HD stream and decode it.

It is fine that the monitor has superb picture in component or VGA.

But tour de force of LCD is DVI-D. Then digital picture pixel is precisely driving digital pixel in the display. So the 1920x1080 picture in the 1920x1200 display should be superb even when analyzing it with magnifying glass :D:D:D

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
... doing Excel, running Bloomberg, writing email and Word docs, the DVI-D at 1920x1200 picture is as good as a EIZO CG21, which means it's incredible.

I really appreciate the fact that you are using your display for computing as well video. I'd use it about 70:30, which leads me to ask: How close can you do work with the display? You mentioned viewing from 3 feet, but was that video and/or computing? Can you go closer with work? I ask because I've only got 2 feet of desk real estate in front of a display. My sitting position would usually put my peepers another foot from the desk, but during those intense Excel/PowerPoint/Word sessions, I often lean in to the work. Do you think I'm pushing it with a 23 incher or should I step down to a 19"? I'm dying to upgrade from my 15" LCD.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
irkuck,
I do not have a HDTV card, as I don't know of one that would work for me, as my cable provideer Time Warner NY encode their signals via QAM.
If you know how to get 1920x1080 with some card, please PLEASE let me know. Paul

There is one Technotrend Budget (http://www.usa-x.org/1shop/product_info.php?products_id=44) card which should fit. This card has software decoder so if you have about 3 GHz P4 machine you can get HDTV in principle. In principle, since signals may also be encrypted and with this card you can only get unencrypted signals. So if signals are unencrpyted you can try to go with this card to see pristine HDTV.

When mine arrives, I'll test the L2335's 1920x1080 OTA HD performance with a MyHD MDP-120 card, including some screenshots.

-tony

I just scanned the web and found an announcement from ATI that a QAM HDTV card is upcoming. As all my HD signals are QAM encryted from Time Warner cable. My wait for true 1920x1080 will be longer. Now, I'll settle for slightly stretched pictures. HELL, I have been watching TV that way on my Apple Cinema Dipslay for 3.5 years.

Do let us know when a QAM HDTV PC card is available!

Paul



Originally posted by irkuck
There is one Technotrend Budget (http://www.usa-x.org/1shop/product_info.php?products_id=44) card which should fit. This card has software decoder so if you have about 3 GHz P4 machine you can get HDTV in principle. In principle, since signals may also be encrypted and with this card you can only get unencrypted signals. So if signals are unencrpyted you can try to go with this card to see pristine HDTV.

Randall,

Hope this helps!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid110/pa844c81e83e04ae0e90e909ad2a9eaf3/f921c587.jpg.orig.jpg

I find working with Excel that 2' is perhaps too close.

The picture was taken without flash, so a little shaky. The color will never be accurate, but you can see how much whiter and bluer the L2335 is versus the already sharp Dell WUSXA 1920x1200 display by Sharp.

I still do not know who really makes the panel, although the back does say Made in China. But that could be the casing. The inners could be OEM from others.....

Working with my Dell D800 and that 15.4" 1920x1200 screen from 1.5 feet has been hard for the last year!

Watching the HD movie from 2' is scary big! You guys have to try it!






Originally posted by randall
I really appreciate the fact that you are using your display for computing as well video. I'd use it about 70:30, which leads me to ask: How close can you do work with the display? You mentioned viewing from 3 feet, but was that video and/or computing? Can you go closer with work? I ask because I've only got 2 feet of desk real estate in front of a display. My sitting position would usually put my peepers another foot from the desk, but during those intense Excel/PowerPoint/Word sessions, I often lean in to the work. Do you think I'm pushing it with a 23 incher or should I step down to a 19"? I'm dying to upgrade from my 15" LCD.

I say you should call and change to overnight mail as I did!



Originally posted by tbacos
When mine arrives, I'll test the L2335's 1920x1080 OTA HD performance with a MyHD MDP-120 card, including some screenshots.

-tony

Unfontunately, it's backordered at pcconnection where I ordered.

The link you posted doesn't appear to be working. Can you repost without the http:// ?

-tony

Try the top level

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4287259169

If anyone ELSE wants the actual JPEG image, sent me you email and I'll sent it over!

paulchiu_28@yahoo.com

Paul





Originally posted by tbacos
Unfontunately, it's backordered at pcconnection where I ordered.

The link you posted doesn't appear to be working. Can you repost without the http:// ?

-tony

Wow. Thanks Paul. Whites & colors do look very bright. Scale of 1-10, how would you rate blacks?

Do you have the screen raised to the full height on the stand?

-tony

Blacks are 8/10.

Point of reference.

Apple Cinema Display is 4.5
Dell D800 a 6
Zenith 64" true HDTV at 1920x108000 and 9" CRT's 9
Fujitsu 42" plasma 9.5

Whites are as good as my Fujitsu 42" plasma.

Some more JPEGs. Please remember that actual screen image is FAR BETTER!

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4287259169

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4287259169


Paul


Originally posted by tbacos
Wow. Thanks Paul. Whites & colors do look very bright. Scale of 1-10, how would you rate blacks?

Do you have the screen raised to the full height on the stand?

-tony

Thanks Paul - I can't wait.

BTW, that's quite a nice collection of display devices you have to reference. :)

-tony

I am lucky, as my wife does not mind that "we" have a HDTV in every room.

Next thing later this year is a Fujitsu or Intel thin plasma for the kitchen and next year, one for the baby!

Yee Yee


Paul

Originally posted by tbacos
Thanks Paul - I can't wait.

BTW, that's quite a nice collection of display devices you have to reference. :)

-tony

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Hope this helps!

Thanks again Paul. Our tabletops look about the same width, so I'd appreciate if you could report back a while later after a heavy work session (taxes?) on whether it's "too much" or "too cool." (Taxes are actually a bad example cuz it might not put you in the best of moods.)

I say "a while later" because I remember when I jumped from a 27" to 60" TV, I initially got headaches and felt like reaching for some sunglasses. Now I'm ready for an even larger one! But upgrading my study comes first.

Sheeeeeeet,

You must be reading my mind or have my home bugged, as I am doing my 1040!


It does take a while to get used to the large screen and the L2335 is very big on my desk. I'll push it back against the wall or mount it on the wall.

I have mentioned a lot of the bad issues, but one great thing about this L2335 is the ability to tilt, rotate, and elevate with a light touch. The Sony and LG 23" panels cannot do this. The Apple Cinema likewise. Not sure if the Samsungs can.

It's not somthing you really need to do, but if you have another in the room, being able to swing or tilt the panel is a great feature.



Originally posted by randall
Thanks again Paul. Our tabletops look about the same width, so I'd appreciate if you could report back a while later after a heavy work session (taxes?) on whether it's "too much" or "too cool." (Taxes are actually a bad example cuz it might not put you in the best of moods.)

I say "a while later" because I remember when I jumped from a 27" to 60" TV, I initially got headaches and felt like reaching for some sunglasses. Now I'm ready for an even larger one! But upgrading my study comes first.

Paul,

Do you mind downloading a game demo and look for ghosting?

I was trying to find something not so violent.

There are lots of game demos available from megagames. Just and three W's to the front, and a dotcom to the end.

Look on the left for Games Files->Demos.

Plenty of first person shooters and racing games.

Thanks,

CLark

I'd love a 1920x1200 computer monitor, but I dont think it would be so good for video. Video monitors are designed to be viewed from a distance and (should) have more intense whites (they put out more light). If you had the same intensity on a computer monitor it would be a strain on the eyes. That is why I don't think you'll see one with HDCP, and the fact that 1920x1080 would be more preferable as 1920x1200 is NOT 16:9 (1.78:1).

I'd still like one as a computer monitor but I wouldn't buy one soley for watching video. The cost, low contrast ratio and slow response times are a big price for high resolution.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Some more JPEGs.
It seems the HP L2335 has an LG 23" panel with 16ms response rate. I've read a lot of posts on people describing the 20.1" 16ms panel from LG as having a screendoor effect. Greys and whites can look pixelated, because ppl can see the actual individual pixels - these seems to be quite some space between them.

So question to Paul is: Do you notice anything like that?

If possible, I'd like to ask you to post or send a pic of the screen, taken from really up close, so it (almost) shows the actual pixels. That might give an impression of the panel and show if it is much different from the 20.1" one.

Apart from that, thanx for all the info so far. This should be a 16ms panel, so gamers with this kind of money to burn will be keen to find out how much it blurs in fast motion.

I posted 2 more detailed shots of the screen today. PLEASE know that it is a poor representation of the actual colors and the moire is from my cheapo 4MP digicam. The better judge is the shot yesterday with the Dell, which most people are familiar with!

Use the pix link from yesterday

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Blacks are 8/10.

Point of reference.

Apple Cinema Display is 4.5
Dell D800 a 6
Zenith 64" true HDTV at 1920x108000 and 9" CRT's 9
Fujitsu 42" plasma 9.5

Paul

That's a lot of pixels there @_@.

... and upcoming HDTV for the kitchen and one for the baby

... meaning an HDTV for each eyeball!

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
I just scanned the web and found an announcement from ATI that a QAM HDTV card is upcoming. As all my HD signals are QAM encryted from Time Warner cable. My wait for true 1920x1080 will be longer. Now, I'll settle for slightly stretched pictures. HELL, I have been watching TV that way on my Apple Cinema Dipslay for 3.5 years.
Do let us know when a QAM HDTV PC card is available!
Paul

You are absolved from your high-tech ignorance because of your high-def
inclination :D :D. But please consider that QAM is not encryption, it is
signal modulation (whatever this means). The cable card I mentioned is for
the reception of QAM modulated signals and will do this pefectly.

Transmision can also be encrypted, that is the QAM modulated signals can be scrambled to make them directly unreadable. Normally, encrypted signals are
those for which you have to pay a premium. Thus all TV transmissions on
cable are QAM modulated, and in addition some of them can be encrypted:)

Originally posted by tbacos
When mine arrives, I'll test the L2335's 1920x1080 OTA HD performance with a MyHD MDP-120 card, including some screenshots.
-tony

For ultimate test drive the monitor via DVI. I noticed though that this
card has quite strange DVI solution via daughter card, hope it is real
DVI.

How much is this card? I don't want to throw away more money to find that all the TWC QAM channels are protected.

Are you certain that it will play 1920x1080 with borders correctly via the PC's DVI-D?








Originally posted by irkuck
You are absolved from your high-tech ignorance because of your high-def
inclination :D :D. But please consider that QAM is not encryption, it is
signal modulation (whatever this means). The cable card I mentioned is for
the reception of QAM modulated signals and will do this pefectly.

Transmision can also be encrypted, that is the QAM modulated signals can be scrambled to make them directly unreadable. Normally, encrypted signals are
those for which you have to pay a premium. Thus all TV transmissions on
cable are QAM modulated, and in addition some of them can be encrypted:)

Paul, would you mind trying 1600x1200 display setting on your computer and letting us know what the HP does? Does it show black bars an the sides, or stretch the image?

Thanks,

DanW

Paul, I was just looking at the manual for the L2335, have you tried changing the "Custom Scaling" setting to "One to One" or "Fill to Aspect Ratio"?

DanW

Dan,

If you are doing it using the DVI-D interface with PC, the image is stretched to fill the HP L2335, and it is a little fuzzy at 1600x1200, but tact sharp at the perfect ratio 1680x1050; etc.

BTW, the DVI-A connection is excellent. For text, it's better than the best CRT even.




Originally posted by DanW
Paul, would you mind trying 1600x1200 display setting on your computer and letting us know what the HP does? Does it show black bars an the sides, or stretch the image?

Thanks,

DanW

Yes, it does not solve the 1804x1015 from 1920x1080 issue.

After 3 days, I am beginning to get used to the slight stretching.

I have an open complaint into HP Business Division now and it will take as much as 3 days to resolve, since no one there is an expert on this new panel.

Yep, I am a beta tester. THANK goodness still no bad pixels after 3 days of near 24/7 use.





Originally posted by DanW
Paul, I was just looking at the manual for the L2335, have you tried changing the "Custom Scaling" setting to "One to One" or "Fill to Aspect Ratio"?

DanW

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
If you are doing it using the DVI-D interface with PC, the image is stretched to fill the HP L2335, and it is a little fuzzy at 1600x1200, but tact sharp at the perfect ratio 1680x1050; etc.
Are you saying that if you choose a one-to-one scaling ratio and use 1600x1200 through DVI, you don't get a pixel-perfect image in the center of the screen with two black bars on the sides? This is really a basic feature and it would be a huge negative for the monitor whenever you have to switch to a 4:3 application like a game.

An article on the vendor that mades the HP L2335 panel, but still unclear who exactly makes the LCD screen itself. The color and brightness say LG, but the response time say Samsung.

http://www.fool.com/Server/FoolPrint.asp?File=/news/mft/2004/mft04011627.htm

Still no answer from HP Business Dept on my 1920x1080 to 1804x1015 issue.

If it's a 23" panel, I'm pretty sure it's LG. If it has a speced 25ms response time it's probably their older panel instead of the new. The older panel has a 25ms response, lower brightness, lower contrast, and slightly worse color gamut specs.

AFAIK Samsung doesn't make a 23" WS panel, only a 24".

Originally posted by nm88
Are you saying that if you choose a one-to-one scaling ratio and use 1600x1200 through DVI, you don't get a pixel-perfect image in the center of the screen with two black bars on the sides? This is really a basic feature and it would be a huge negative for the monitor whenever you have to switch to a 4:3 application like a game.

Thats how I take it as well. Seems patently ridiculous, doesn't it?

DanW

What you want has nothing to do with the L2335, it's merely the ability of the video card driving it. If your card allows for smaller resolution, non-native to the panel, it will center the data portion correctly.

Frankly, I do not use this panel that way, as I like to see the entire 1920x1200 being used.

My Nvidia 4200 Mobile card does have some driver to center the 1600x1200 within the 1920x1200 without stretching, but borders?

The main problem I have with the L2335 is using it without any computers with a HD tuner. Here I do want to see borders top & bottom for true 1920x1080.




Originally posted by nm88
Are you saying that if you choose a one-to-one scaling ratio and use 1600x1200 through DVI, you don't get a pixel-perfect image in the center of the screen with two black bars on the sides? This is really a basic feature and it would be a huge negative for the monitor whenever you have to switch to a 4:3 application like a game.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
How much is this card? I don't want to throw away more money to find that all the TWC QAM channels are protected.

Are you certain that it will play 1920x1080 with borders correctly via the PC's DVI-D?

You can simply ask if your channels are protected. The card is cheapo,
100 euro. The card is only receiver, you drive the monitor from
PC graphics adapter.

Originally posted by irkuck
You can simply ask if your channels are protected. The card is cheapo,
100 euro. The card is only receiver, you drive the monitor from
PC graphics adapter.

Therein lies the problem. Time Warner Cable cannot tell me if it is protected or not. So it is a 100 Euro risk of trying.

BTW, got a link to the one you are talking about?

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
The main problem I have with the L2335 is using it without any computers with a HD tuner. Here I do want to see borders top & bottom for true 1920x1080.

Kinda smells impossible to me :confused:

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Therein lies the problem. Time Warner Cable cannot tell me if it is protected or not. So it is a 100 Euro risk of trying.

BTW, got a link to the one you are talking about?

They keep it secret if it is protected or not :confused:

The card link is http://www.usa-x.org/1shop/product_info.php?products_id=44 ( Technotrend Budget) but indeed the
card may not be worth trying if such basic thing like protection
is not public.

Originally posted by irkuck
Kinda smells impossible to me :confused:


Sadly, you're right.

BUT I am really enjoying the quality of the slightly stretched HDTV 1080i picture now. The PIP with S-Video while I am working on the PC is also excellent.

I now think at under $2000 US, the HP L2335 is the best of the bunch of current 23/24" "try to do everything" LCD panels.

Originally posted by irkuck
The card link is http://www.usa-x.org/1shop/product_info.php?products_id=44 ( Technotrend Budget) but indeed the
card may not be worth trying if such basic thing like protection
is not public.


Bad link, big guy/gal.

As for your other comment, welcome to the world of HDTV in USA.

I'm not sure why irkuck did it, but the link does work if you copy and paste the entire URL. His underlying link is wrong.

Originally posted by stephenC
I'm not sure why irkuck did it, but the link does work if you copy and paste the entire URL. His underlying link is wrong.


Thanks,

There isn't much info on what it does, and the sole review was a one-liner with a "...But" in the end.

The I/O seems to be cable. Has anyone really used this?

I called HP to get some more information on the responsetime of the L2335. She contacted the tech department, who were at a loss, and dived into it. The result of their own research - which took a day - is that the L2335 as sold in both the US and the Netherlands has a 16ms panel. So they say.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Thanks,

There isn't much info on what it does, and the sole review was a one-liner with a "...But" in the end.

The I/O seems to be cable. Has anyone really used this?

First, sorry for bad link...

Second, the card surely works OK in Europe.

irkuck,

Ok, the HD cable box coaxial goes into the cable lead of this card, where does the cable lead goes? If it's the cable input of the main PC video card, how does that channel the cable information processed by your HD card into 1920x1080 signals through the DVI-D of the main PC video card?

Thanks

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
irkuck,

Ok, the HD cable box coaxial goes into the cable lead of this card, where does the cable lead goes? If it's the cable input of the main PC video card, how does that channel the cable information processed by your HD card into 1920x1080 signals through the DVI-D of the main PC video card?
Thanks

The card has pass-through connectors. If you connect the card input
with cable socket in teh wall then the output is connected to the
HD cable box. But if the box is first then you leave the second
connector in teh card free.

The card receives TV signal and extracts digital stream from it.
This stream is decoded in PC and appears in w window on PC monitor.

Originally posted by irkuck
The card has pass-through connectors. If you connect the card input
with cable socket in teh wall then the output is connected to the
HD cable box. But if the box is first then you leave the second
connector in teh card free.

The card receives TV signal and extracts digital stream from it.
This stream is decoded in PC and appears in w window on PC monitor.


Do you get 1920x1080 over in Europe now?

YES!

http://www.euro1080.tv/

Originally posted by ahmed
YES!

http://www.euro1080.tv/ Smart business model.

Originally posted by melechmet
Methinks the Benq is probably Chi mei or AUO glass (scaler, etc., may come from elsewhere though).

BenQ is the new name for Acer. Acer does make LCD's, atleast the Dell 19 or 20" LCD's are made by Acer.

Appears that "almighty Vince" is right. BenQ does make their own LCD's. Whether they do it all under one roof is uncertain, but here is a very interesting article on who makes what:

http://www.tomshardware.com/display/20040413/index.html

If my HP L2335 is really 16ms, the article all but infer that is is a LG-Philips LCD, as HP has no fabs.

Paul


Originally posted by Almighty1
BenQ is the new name for Acer. Acer does make LCD's, atleast the Dell 19 or 20" LCD's are made by Acer.

Nvidia's new video engine supports HDCP!

So, maybe if I get a new PC, say P4 3.2GHZ, spent another $499 on this super graphics card, get the Pioneer HD cable box with DVI-HDCP, I Can then see true 1920x1080 through the Nvidia card's connection with my HP L2335, without any additinal elongation of Jay Leno's already oblong face!!!!!!!!!

http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040414/index.html

Confusing? Hell yeah!

REJOICE? David Schamis !!!


Paul

wow, NVIDIA supports HDCP? that is just what the good doctor ordered!

Unfortunately for me, I still need to see QAM256 cable support in that (6800) coaxial connection for the HDTV content to be funneled through the pipes.

Paul

Originally posted by Doc Tonic
wow, NVIDIA supports HDCP? that is just what the good doctor ordered!

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
What you want has nothing to do with the L2335, it's merely the ability of the video card driving it. If your card allows for smaller resolution, non-native to the panel, it will center the data portion correctly.

Frankly, I do not use this panel that way, as I like to see the entire 1920x1200 being used.

My Nvidia 4200 Mobile card does have some driver to center the 1600x1200 within the 1920x1200 without stretching, but borders?

Paul,
Thank you for writing about your experiences with all of these displays!
I've closely examined the 23" Apple and Sony monitors and agree with your assessment. I have a Dell notebook 8100 with 1600*1200 and considered the new Dell 9100 with 1920*1200. But I decided not to go this route as the text on the 8100 (even though it is perfectly sharp) is at the limit of comfortable use. The 24" Samsung is overpriced. And in the end there are usually performance or technical issues with their products.
We think alike in many ways!

T.V. manufactures are stuck at 1280*720. And their displays are overpriced too. Let the PC manufactures do an end run knock some sense in them!
Normally HP is not the best value. But situations can change overnight. (HP just puts its name on the this monitor anyway). In any event because of your critical eye, now is the time to splurge. I just placed my order for the 23" directly from HP.com.


Digital Pixel Mapping
-------------------------
As for your statement "What you want has nothing to do with the L2335, it's merely the ability of the video card driving it. If your card allows for smaller resolution, non-native to the panel, it (edit: the video card???) will center the data portion correctly."

I'm not sure I've followed the thread correctly, but the issue here is that this monitor does have a "one-for-one" pixel mapping capability. If the monitors internal scaler can be disabled (this should be the purpose of the 1:1 switch setting) then any resolution (less than the native) should be displayed symmetrically "out from the center". 640*480 res will display only in the center area. 1600*1200 should completely fill up the HP's display vertically and then put "black bares" on each side. It is the monitor circuitry which transfers the data from the TDMS/DVI bus to its display buffer.
I think this is what others here have being trying to ask. For 1920*1080 HDTV signals:
No monitor scaling (with 1:1 mapping enabled) allowed. There should be black bars along the top and bottom of the display. Each would have a width of (1200-1080)/2= 60 pixel height.

I have a question too: Can a Nvidia Ti 4200 (bought two years ago) even output 1920*1200 from the DVI port? I've just downloaded the latest drivers and 1920*1200 is listed (at least).

Have you tried the MicroSoft Media 9 HD disks yet? It should output at the 1920*1080p!

Softy,

I'll try to cover all your points.

1) The D800 that I have with 1920x1200 at 15.4" diagonal is actually a much nicer display than the 8100 series. Dell really did improve the LCD's (from Sharp and Samsung) when they introduced the 8500/8600 in consumers and D800 in business last year. It's not that hard to read, as the brightness and contrast on the D800/8600 Dells are quite high for a notebook. I think the 9100 uses the same exact screen as my 1 year old D800. They might have gotten the bad pixel bugs out by now, but it's the same refresh at 25ms. So rather lousy in watching action movies, but more than enough for the Playboy channel.

2) I prefer the color of the LG-Philips over the Samsung. The Samsung is the brightest among the top 3 which is LG, Sony (made by Sharp or Fujitsu), and Samsung. The HP L2335 is very likely LG-Philips except that it is amazingly bright with TRUE white and black points. This is critical for my camera work. This new panel works amazingly well with my Nikon D1X, Dell D800, Dell 8200, and various Epson printers. I have successively calibrated the HP L2335 with my GretagMacbeth Eye-One Photo spectrophotometer. The workflow is now very predictable; something that was not the case with the D800 screen.

3) Right now, you can get 1368x768 with 50" Fujitsu plasmas, which I think is the best currently. But they are all saying larger plasmas with 1920x1080 are around the corner. I'll believe it when I see it.

4) Frankly, for someone like myself who sits in front of 2 computers and 4 screens from 7AM to 2AM 5 days a week (with naps in between), I do not want (or need) a 60" plasma with 1920x1080 to watch CNBC and Fox News. The 23" pure digital (DVI-D) monitors like the HP L2335 works great for my workflow. The HP L2335 PIP function allows me to have a 640x360 window to watch really gorgeous HDTV material and above average everything else via the S-Video input. The PIP does allow true HD 1080i aspect material without stretching. With the PIP, no computer resources as my computer drives the L2335 via the DVI-D digital connection.

5) The D800 needs the docking station to have a DVI-D connection to the L2335. The Nvidia 4200GO is 64MB, so it can drive the notebook 1920x1200 and the HP L2335's 1920x1200 at 32 bits without much problem.

6) There are occasional pops and flickers on the HP L2335. This is due to the D800's sharing the 64MB card with the 2 displays. I do not have any such issues driving the L2335 with a Dell 8200 desktop or an Apple Power Mac G4.

7) I prefer to use the L2335 as a dual monitor set up with the Dell D800 as both have that 1920x1200 resolution. Until I get the Pentium P4 EE machine and another L2335, perhaps I can retire the Apple Cinema Display, which now seems dim compared with the HP

8) Out of the box, the HP L2335 brightness is set at 90%. I use 70% for regular TV using composite or S-Video. I use 40% for HDTV via the component inputs, and 45% brightness for computer work using the DVI-D connection. The PIP when used with computer as primary remembers the brightness/contrast settings of either S-video, composite, or component and reverts correctly within the PIP. This is welcome.

9) If you connect the L2335 with a HD tuner or HD cable box outputing 1080i, the L2335 will scale it up to 1920x1200 as 1804x1015. It doesn't look terribly distorted for Discovery-HD or PBS-HD or even most HBO-HD and SHO-HD movies. But watching Leno on NBC-HD, Jay's already oblong face becomes prominently elongated to the point of caricature.

The sharpness and 3-D sensation from 3 feet of HD 1080i material with the L2335 is exceptional on my desktop. Only my experience with my 50" Fujitsu plasma with the same HD 1080i material is better. But of couse, the scaling being correct with the Fujitsu, has something to do with my judgement.

10) I wish the L2335 does not scale the 1920x1080 HD signal. In the marketing material and owners manual, it says that it can do 1920x1080. But at least mine can't and in a way, I am pissed. Kind of more "pissed" as HP has not even return my error report of 2 weeks ago. I have so far only gotten apologies from some 7 different customer service people. It truly amazes me that $1700 does not get me any level of decent support these days.

Sure, I spent $3999 for my 1st 22" Apple Cinema Display, but the support was next day at home service. Apple even replaced my screen when bad pixels kicked in months later.

My 17.3" Silicon Graphics 1600SW was replaced no less than 3 times since I bought in back in 1999 for $2500.

Both these were only 1600x1024 and cannot do HDTV.

The L2335 with it's HDTV capabilities and full computer functions seems a great value at only $1700.

11) The lack of a remote control to switch from video to HDTV to computer for something at $1700 in these times is S T U P I D !!!!! I thought I didn't need it, but the mechanical switches on the L2335 panel is so damn noisy that I really need one.

The LG 2320 has remote windows control, and the bezel is drop dead gorgeous when compared with my HP L2335.

12) The ability to instantly tilt, rotate, push up and down with little force is brilliant, and perhaps makes up for the negatives in point #11.

I don't believe I have enough video card power to do Windows Media HD content with my 4200GO with 64MB card. I am thinking a P4 3.4G E.E. with a 256MB ATI 9800 or the upcoming Nvidia 6800 with HDCP support card when they are available. Maybe by then, enough 1920x1080 are available outside of this " Tease me and make me feel like a loser waiting for something great to buy ...mentality..." Then again, they promises HD-DVD, which, if they pipe it through non-HDCP DVI-D's, might work with the L2335 without stretching.

Who knows!


Hope this helps, softy!

I AM Still happy despite the minor negatives, the HD1080i stretching, the noisy bezel, and the missing HP support after 3 weeks! No bad pixel on a panel with some 6.9+ million sub-pixels makes Paul a happy LCD user.

Later,

Paul





Originally posted by softengr
Paul,
I have a Dell notebook 8100 with 1600*1200 and considered the new Dell 9100 with 1920*1200. But I decided not to go this route as the text on the 8100 (even though it is perfectly sharp) is at the limit of comfortable use. The 24" Samsung is overpriced. And in the end there are usually performance or technical issues with their products.
We think alike in many ways!

T.V. manufactures are stuck at 1280*720. And their displays are overpriced too. Let the PC manufactures do an end run knock some sense in them!
Normally HP is not the best value. But situations can change overnight. (HP just puts its name on the this monitor anyway). In any event because of your critical eye, now is the time to splurge. I just placed my order for the 23" directly from HP.com.


Digital Pixel Mapping
-------------------------
As for your statement "What you want has nothing to do with the L2335, it's merely the ability of the video card driving it. If your card allows for smaller resolution, non-native to the panel, it (edit: the video card???) will center the data portion correctly."

I'm not sure I've followed the thread correctly, but the issue here is that this monitor does have a "one-for-one" pixel mapping capability. If the monitors internal scaler can be disabled (this should be the purpose of the 1:1 switch setting) then any resolution (less than the native) should be displayed symmetrically "out from the center". 640*480 res will display only in the center area. 1600*1200 should completely fill up the HP's display vertically and then put "black bares" on each side. It is the monitor circuitry which transfers the data from the TDMS/DVI bus to its display buffer.
I think this is what others here have being trying to ask. For 1920*1080 HDTV signals:
No monitor scaling (with 1:1 mapping enabled) allowed. There should be black bars along the top and bottom of the display. Each would have a width of (1200-1080)/2= 60 pixel height.

I have a question too: Can a Nvidia Ti 4200 (bought two years ago) even output 1920*1200 from the DVI port? I've just downloaded the latest drivers and 1920*1200 is listed (at least).

Have you tried the MicroSoft Media 9 HD disks yet? It should output at the 1920*1080p!

Originally posted by softengr
... I just placed my order for the 23" directly from HP.com. ... I placed my order there yesterday morning. ;)

A friend of mine just received his new L2335 and I went to check it out as I'm in the market for one myself.

We noticed significant video jittering on dark colors. The darker the color, the worst the jittering. I'm sure the jitter is appearing on the whole screen, however, for some reason its plainly visible to our eyes when shown against darker colors.

I've had similar jittering on an older Compaq LCD, and have been able to adjust the clock phase on the Compaq's settings to get rid of the problem. On his L2335, however, the Clock Phase adjustment is disabled because (according to the HP User Manual) this adjustment is not available when using DVI (digital). We couldn't find any other adjustments to fix the problem.

He is using a Dell notebook with a docking station that has DVI-D output. The Dell has an ATI 9000 video card (I think).

He is going to try analog output to see if the problem still occurs. However, even if the jittering went away, that would be very disappointing having to use analog on this monitor

Anyone have suggestions for getting rid of these jitters that appear only on darker colors?

Thanks Much

Test it with a desktop as it's primary monitor. Use video card with at least 64MB VRAM, expect better with 128MB.

I experience some flickers when driven as secondary monitor (in dual monitor mode) off the Dell D800 with its docking station as well, but very minor as I made the L2335 its primary display.

The distortions you noticed in blacks are present in light as well, it's just that your eyes can't pick them up as readily.

Paul


Originally posted by mngtcon
A friend of mine just received his new L2335 and I went to check it out as I'm in the market for one myself.

We noticed significant video jittering on dark colors. The darker the color, the worst the jittering. I'm sure the jitter is appearing on the whole screen, however, for some reason its plainly visible to our eyes when shown against darker colors.

I've had similar jittering on an older Compaq LCD, and have been able to adjust the clock phase on the Compaq's settings to get rid of the problem. On his L2335, however, the Clock Phase adjustment is disabled because (according to the HP User Manual) this adjustment is not available when using DVI (digital). We couldn't find any other adjustments to fix the problem.

He is using a Dell notebook with a docking station that has DVI-D output. The Dell has an ATI 9000 video card (I think).

He is going to try analog output to see if the problem still occurs. However, even if the jittering went away, that would be very disappointing having to use analog on this monitor

Anyone have suggestions for getting rid of these jitters that appear only on darker colors?

Thanks Much

Just got this in my email from HP.

http://h18002.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/11868_div/11868_div_Changes.HTML

Wonder if these spec changes mean a different supplier to for their LCD chassis?

Just got this in my email from HP.

http://h18002.www1.hp.com/products/quickspecs/11868_div/11868_div_Changes.HTML

Wonder if these spec changes mean a different supplier for their LCD chassis?

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Softy,
I'll try to cover all your points.

1) So rather lousy in watching action movies, but more than enough for the Playboy channel.

8) Out of the box, the HP L2335 brightness is set at 90%. I use 70% for regular TV using composite or S-Video. I use 40% for HDTV via the component inputs, and 45% brightness for computer work using the DVI-D connection.

9) If you connect the L2335 with a HD tuner or HD cable box outputing 1080i (Edit: using HD ANALOG component) , the L2335 will scale it up to 1920x1200 as 1804x1015.
Later,
Paul
Quote:
"So rather lousy in watching action movies, but more than enough for the Playboy channel... Frankly, for someone like myself who sits in front of 2 computers and 4 screens from 7AM to 2AM 5 days a week (with naps in between)."
Note: Comment censored. Wife response expected to follow...

Quote:
"I use 40% for HDTV via the component inputs".
It is quite clear (now) that you are using the ANALOG HD component outputs from your HDTV receiver. This is why there are scaling and distortion issues. HDTV has a 16:9 aspect ratio and these new PC monitors are 16:10! What you really need is selectable aspect ratio control.
From the HP owners manual Pg. 4-5:
Image Control Auto
Adjustment
“Adjusting�
Message
Horizontal
Position
Adjustment
Scale
Vertical
Position
Adjustment
Scale
Custom
Scaling
Fill to Screen
Fill to Aspect Ratio <--- Try using this one to preserve the aspect ratio
One to One <-- For DVI only
Sharpness Sharpness
Selection
Clock Adjustment
Scale
Clock Phase Adjustment
Scale

See if the "Fill to Aspect Ratio" operates for the analog component inputs.
If it does then the aspect distortion problem might be solved.

My plan is to normally use ONLY the DVI input. Forget all of the other inputs. A local easy to use separate DVI switcher will eliminate all monitor input switching too. Enable 1:1 mapping. Result: NO scaling. NO picture distortion.
My goal of relatively inexpensive, full 1920*1080(i and p) resolution, 1:1 pixel mapping great looking HDTV is coming to fruition. I get vast sharp picture for computer work too. Practically perfect perfection. This is the convergence between TVs and computers which most will want to achieve, even though they don't realize it (yet).

Note: The HDTV tuner should have DVI output and switchable DVI levels. Matching DVI levels is critically important as PC monitor video quantization range are (no doubt) fixed at 0-255. The LG 3200 HDTV/Direct TV tuner meets these requirements.

Paul -

Just a quick FYI -- I still have my SGI 1600SW -- what a GREAT monitor it is -- it eventually got replaced with my (current) Samsung 240T.

At one point, SGI came out with a "Multilink Adapter" that allowed RGB and DVI connections to be made to the 1600sw.

Both my HiPix DTV HDTV PCI Card *and* my Samsung TS160 DirecTV/OTA HD Receiver connect to the multilink adapter via RGB and are able to display 720p HDTV is all its glory -- and it looks *wonderful*.

So yes, the 1600sw is *definately* HDTV compatible!

http://www.sgi.com/products/legacy/multilink/

Aaron

PS - When ABC first started doing Monday Night Football in HD --- the first HDTV Production Truck they used had a wall full of 1600sw monitors and multilink adapters that were monitoring the various cameras on the filed.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Softy,


My 17.3" Silicon Graphics 1600SW was replaced no less than 3 times since I bought in back in 1999 for $2500.

Both these were only 1600x1024 and cannot do HDTV.
Later,

Paul

Softy,

First off, there is no printed owner's manual, and the CD ROM version is mostly incomprehensible. There is NO adjustment in HDTV mode, dispite what the manual say as having 1920x1080. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN! Why I have posted some 6 times here stating my frustration in getting no response from HP as to "WHY?"

The only adjustment when using the HDTV via component inputs is brightness and contrast. You cannot stop the L2335 from scaling all HD signals.

ALSO A G A I N, you cannot use the DVI-D inputs with any HDTV cable box since the boxes are HDCP enabled. The HP L2335 is not.

I note your point on using only as computer monitor at 1920x1200, this is the L2335's strength, and you will absolutely love the CRT like colors and contrast with the ability to read 4 size FONTS in MS Word from 2 feet. Using PowerDVD version 5.0 to watch DVD's in a small window or even full screen will look amazing. The 5th Element looks great this way as a demo.

But Paul wants HDTV at true 1920x1080 !

But there is no way to watch HBO, SHO, PBS, Discovery, Playboy or any other premium HDTV content right now through a pure digital link up to the L2335.

Perhaps your dish tuner has a DVI-D "computer" output to the L2335, then it will work for you.

Otherwise, you cannot get native HDTV signals into the L2335 without the internal monitor scaler taking over and stretching the HD images.

I agree with your desire to get an external DVI-D switcher to remotely change the inputs to the L2335. If you know of a way to get HD content into the L2335 at 1920x1080, then please let US KNOW!

Paul


Originally posted by softengr
Quote:

From the HP owners manual Pg. 4-5:
Image Control Auto
Adjustment
?œAdjusting??
Message
Horizontal
Position
Adjustment
Scale
Vertical
Position
Adjustment
Scale
Custom
Scaling
Fill to Screen
Fill to Aspect Ratio <--- Try using this one to preserve the aspect ratio
One to One <-- For DVI only
Sharpness Sharpness
Selection
Clock Adjustment
Scale
Clock Phase Adjustment
Scale

See if the "Fill to Aspect Ratio" operates for the analog component inputs.
If it does then the aspect distortion problem might be solved.

My plan is to normally use ONLY the DVI input. Forget all of the other inputs. A local easy to use separate DVI switcher will eliminate all monitor input switching too. Enable 1:1 mapping. Result: NO scaling. NO picture distortion.
My goal of relatively inexpensive, full 1920*1080(i and p) resolution, 1:1 pixel mapping great looking HDTV is coming to fruition. I get vast sharp picture for computer work too. Practically perfect perfection. This is the convergence between TVs and computers which most will want to achieve, even though they don't realize it (yet).

Note: The HDTV tuner should have DVI output and switchable DVI levels. Matching DVI levels is critically important as PC monitor video quantization range are (no doubt) fixed at 0-255. The LG 3200 HDTV/Direct TV tuner meets these requirements.

Aaron,

I have 2 Multilinks and still have 3 SGI 1600SW.

Amazingly, after 5 years, the 1600SWs are still brighter than my Apple Cinema Displays. My wife uses 2 of them now in dual monitor mode with Del desktops using the multilinks (in pure digital mode) and Nvidia cards at 1600x1024 mode.

I know that it does 720P HD, but most HD programming is in 1080i, so the Multilink + 1600SW only did so much for me. Thanks for the effort!

Paul




Originally posted by aaron.s
Paul -

Just a quick FYI -- I still have my SGI 1600SW -- what a GREAT monitor it is -- it eventually got replaced with my (current) Samsung 240T.

At one point, SGI came out with a "Multilink Adapter" that allowed RGB and DVI connections to be made to the 1600sw.

Both my HiPix DTV HDTV PCI Card *and* my Samsung TS160 DirecTV/OTA HD Receiver connect to the multilink adapter via RGB and are able to display 720p HDTV is all its glory -- and it looks *wonderful*.

So yes, the 1600sw is *definately* HDTV compatible!

http://www.sgi.com/products/legacy/multilink/

Aaron

PS - When ABC first started doing Monday Night Football in HD --- the first HDTV Production Truck they used had a wall full of 1600sw monitors and multilink adapters that were monitoring the various cameras on the filed.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Softy,

First off, there is no printed owner's manual, and the CD ROM version is mostly incomprehensible. There is NO adjustment in HDTV mode, dispite what the manual say as having 1920x1080. THIS DOES NOT HAPPEN! Why I have posted some 6 times here stating my frustration in getting no response from HP as to "WHY?"

The only adjustment when using the HDTV via component inputs is brightness and contrast. You cannot stop the L2335 from scaling all HD signals.

ALSO A G A I N, you cannot use the DVI-D inputs with any HDTV cable box since the boxes are HDCP enabled. The HP L2335 is not.

Ok, now I understand. HDCP is the stumbling block against pure digital transmissions. Pretty stupid.
So the only digital solution is a HDTV PC based card. This excludes satellite or cable stations.
Or go the analog route, but the HP monitor will not keep the same aspect ratio, even though the on-line manual states otherwise. But even here the high resolution component signals can be disabled, right?
I, and I hope everyone can see why you are so frustrated!
Should we encourage PC manufactures to include HDCP interfaces on their monitors?

Softy,

I can tell you why our monitors are not HDCP enabled and likely never will be.
It's because of hollywood heavyweights, who in the tradition of William Randolph Hearst, wants absolute control over what gets transferred into our computers. In some ways, I sympathize with them, as they want to protect their hard work, but for those of us who are MORE than WILLING to spent money on it, WE ARE SCRE-Wed !

If the big wigs would only stop promising, then we wouldn't hold our hopes up so high, and live with 480i video on our 27" Sony Trinitrons.

BTW, I am watching Star Wars Epsiode II - Attack of the Clones on HBO-HD 701 in NYC as I write this.

The L2335 has no problems with any of the fast computer sequences, any of the light saber fights, or the creature battles. The panel also played the cave and indoor scenes very well. The LCD handles blacks much better than I thought possible for a LCD technology.

Perhaps it is 16ms. Now, if only I have NO STRETCHING, Natalie Portman would look even more fetching.



Originally posted by softengr
Ok, now I understand. HDCP is the stumbling block against pure digital transmissions. Pretty stupid.
So the only digital solution is a HDTV PC based card. This excludes satellite or cable stations.
Or go the analog route, but the HP monitor will not keep the same aspect ratio, even though the on-line manual states otherwise. But even here the high resolution component signals can be disabled, right?
I, and I hope everyone can see why you are so frustrated!
Should we encourage PC manufactures to include HDCP interfaces on their monitors?

Hey! An "upconvert" movie on SHO-HD on 703 in NYC TWC looks un-stretched on the L2335. And it has black borders around the entire image. It's not 1080i pristine, but far better than any analog and better than S-Video digital cable channels.

The L2335 still view the cable signal via the component inputs as 1804x1015.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Softy,
I can tell you why our monitors are not HDCP enabled and likely never will be.
It's because of hollywood heavyweights, who in the tradition of William
I did not even consider copy protection much until now. It's hit me like a ton of bricks and it hurts.
Will the new HD disks, (when introduced to the marketplace in the next year or so) be able to be played back from a PC? If so then the HP monitor still make a lot of sense for dual usage.

But how willing will the movie studios be to use the Microsoft (or any other company) Digital Rights Management when the signal is still sent out over the PC cards unencrypted analog or DVI connectors?

A PC based monitor could be designed to accept both encrypted or unencrypted digital signals automatically.

Paul -

I'm sure you know that whatever source you're using for HD could also downconvert the 1080i to 720p.....

Both my HiPix and Samsung HDTV receivers do this and the image still looks excellent...

Aaron


Originally posted by Paul Chiu
Aaron,

I have 2 Multilinks and still have 3 SGI 1600SW.

Amazingly, after 5 years, the 1600SWs are still brighter than my Apple Cinema Displays. My wife uses 2 of them now in dual monitor mode with Del desktops using the multilinks (in pure digital mode) and Nvidia cards at 1600x1024 mode.

I know that it does 720P HD, but most HD programming is in 1080i, so the Multilink + 1600SW only did so much for me. Thanks for the effort!

Paul

You're lucky Aaron, you don't have Time Warner Cable HDTV. Their 3100HD cable box does not give you that feature.

I tried a Pioneer 3510HD box and it didn't even worked with 1080i stuff all together. I hope it's a bad box, but I never wasted additional time to find out.

I would hope that a box that can up/down convert HD signals will come my way, as you have enjoyed.

Paul



Originally posted by aaron.s
Paul -

I'm sure you know that whatever source you're using for HD could also downconvert the 1080i to 720p.....

Both my HiPix and Samsung HDTV receivers do this and the image still looks excellent...

Aaron

Paul -

I don't have Cable up here in Westchester -- I'm a DirecTV guy....

But the Cablevision HD box -- which I believe is nearly identical to the Time Warner box, has a setup menu that allows you to set the output resolution for 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i (all these I know via component and possibly DVI).

Are you sure yours doesn't have this option -- I'm almost positive it must....

Aaron

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
You're lucky Aaron, you don't have Time Warner Cable HDTV. Their 3100HD cable box does not give you that feature.

I tried a Pioneer 3510HD box and it didn't even worked with 1080i stuff all together. I hope it's a bad box, but I never wasted additional time to find out.

I would hope that a box that can up/down convert HD signals will come my way, as you have enjoyed.

Paul

Aaron,

How I wish you were right. But....

Read point #8 and weep (for us Time Warner Cable users....)

http://www.twcarolina.com/services/cable_services/hdtv_faq.asp#q16

You don't know how lucky you have it, until you move into Manhattan.

Paul




Originally posted by aaron.s
Paul -

I don't have Cable up here in Westchester -- I'm a DirecTV guy....

But the Cablevision HD box -- which I believe is nearly identical to the Time Warner box, has a setup menu that allows you to set the output resolution for 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i (all these I know via component and possibly DVI).

Are you sure yours doesn't have this option -- I'm almost positive it must....

Aaron

Originally posted by mngtcon
A friend of mine just received his new L2335 and I went to check it out as I'm in the market for one myself.

We noticed significant video jittering on dark colors. The darker the color, the worst the jittering. I'm sure the jitter is appearing on the whole screen, however, for some reason its plainly visible to our eyes when shown against darker colors.

I've had similar jittering on an older Compaq LCD, and have been able to adjust the clock phase on the Compaq's settings to get rid of the problem. On his L2335, however, the Clock Phase adjustment is disabled because (according to the HP User Manual) this adjustment is not available when using DVI (digital). We couldn't find any other adjustments to fix the problem.

He is using a Dell notebook with a docking station that has DVI-D output. The Dell has an ATI 9000 video card (I think).

He is going to try analog output to see if the problem still occurs. However, even if the jittering went away, that would be very disappointing having to use analog on this monitor

Anyone have suggestions for getting rid of these jitters that appear only on darker colors?

Thanks Much The clock adjustments are mentioned under the title "Optimizing digital conversion". I believe these adjustments are controls on the DACs and would logically have no affect on the pure digital path. I would look for a way to adjust the signal source.

What's this Optimizing digital conversion? Is it something you find in the manuals which I can adjust on the L2335?




Originally posted by xortam
The clock adjustments are mentioned under the title "Optimizing digital conversion". I believe these adjustments are controls on the DACs and would logically have no effect on the pure digital path. I would look for a way to adjust the signal source.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
What's this Optimizing digital conversion? Is it something you find in the manuals which I can adjust on the L2335? "HP Flat Panel Monitor L2335 - Operating the Monitor, Adjusting Monitor Settings" (http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/Document.jsp?objectID=c00043198)

Originally posted by Almighty1
BenQ is the new name for Acer. Acer does make LCD's, atleast the Dell 19 or 20" LCD's are made by Acer. Acer does not make LCD panels. However, Acer now has a big stake in Acer Unipaq, a.k.a. AU Optronics http://www.auo.com/english/ .

The HP L2335 is listed with 2 different part numbers, P9615W and P9615A, anyone know what the difference is? A quick google search reveals that it's not out here 'till april.

Originally posted by cybersoga
The HP L2335 is listed with 2 different part numbers, P9615W and P9615A, anyone know what the difference is? A quick google search reveals that it's not out here 'till april. I've confirmed with HP that the P/N for the U.S. version of the HP L2335 is P9615A#ABA. This is the only P/N that I'm familiar with.

Originally posted by Stereodude
Acer does not make LCD panels. However, Acer now has a big stake in Acer Unipaq, a.k.a. AU Optronics http://www.auo.com/english/ .
I thought this was the case, and thanks for confirming it. From the AUO site:

"AU Optronics is a world-leading manufacturer of large-size thin film transistor liquid crystal display (TFT-LCD) panels … AUO was formed by the merger of Acer Display Technology, Inc. and Unipac Optoelectronics Corporation in 2001."

And from www.benq.com:

"Formerly Acer Communications & Multimedia, the name BenQ was adopted in December 2001 … BenQ’s product lines are managed by four business groups: Imaging Network (scanners, optical drives, digital cameras, color laser printers), Digital Media (Digital Hub, projectors, LCD TV’s, MP3 players/USB flash drives, plasma displays, multi-functional DVD), Network Display (LCD monitors, CRT monitors, smart displays) and Networking & Communications (GSM/GPRS/CDMA/CDMA2000 mobile phones, wireless LAN, home networking, SOHO routers, smart phones, wireless PDAs, wireless modules)."

To further clarify, AUO makes "panels" (or glass), putting it on par with LG and Samsung; while BenQ makes "TV's" and "monitors," putting it on par with Apple and HP (as well as LG and Samsung LCD finished products).

Both were spinoffs from Acer's reorganization in 2001, and both are still part of the "Pan Acer Group" per the Acer website (www.acer.com). Sorry for getting detailed -- I do some business with these companies, and I wanted to get things straight in my own head.

Originally posted by xortam
The clock adjustments are mentioned under the title "Optimizing digital conversion". I believe these adjustments are controls on the DACs and would logically have no affect on the pure digital path. I would look for a way to adjust the signal source.

Thanks for the help people. I haven't been back to my friend's house yet to fiddle with it again, but I'll keep you all posted.

If anyone else get their L2335, please post the resolution you get with component inputs from your HD source; either OTA, cable or dish.

I still have no luck getting any support or help from HP Advance System Group on why I only get 1804x1015 under this mode, and why I don't get the default native resolution of 1920x1080 with top and bottom borders without stretching/scaling.

Paul

It will now be released in June, as I was told by BenQ sales.

Originally posted by Stereodude
Acer does not make LCD panels. However, Acer now has a big stake in Acer Unipaq, a.k.a. AU Optronics http://www.auo.com/english/ .

Don't know for sure but I knew Dell rebranded Acer LCD's as their own.

Originally posted by Paul Chiu
If anyone else get their L2335
Paul
They are on backorder "due to high demand". Should receive mine the first week of May.

As for hope of correct component aspect ratio scaling, I say give it up. That HP has not replied implies that there is no positive simple answer.

My Momitsu 880 Dvd DVI outpuit player has 720p and 1080i with no HDCP. So it scale perfectly.

Softy,

I agree with your "give it up" point.

As for the Momitsu DVD with DVD-D/no HDCP, am I missing something? What good is the DVD player if DVD have only 500 lines at best? What's the point of 720P or 1080i direct when the material is only 480 typically?

Are you saying the signal is sent out in a 1920x1080 frame with a pristine 480i video with black borders all around?

Are you saying I can connect my HD cable box component outputs into the Momitsu and have it output to the HP L2335?

I am interested !


Paul




Originally posted by softengr
They are on backorder "due to high demand". Should receive mine the first week of May.

As for hope of correct component aspect ratio scaling, I say give it up. That HP has not replied implies that there is no positive simple answer.

My Momitsu 880 Dvd DVI outpuit player has 720p and 1080i with no HDCP. So it scale perfectly.

Paul, here is a link to the Momitsu spec.
http://www.momitsu.com/dvd_880spec.html
Yes it can scale regular DVDs to 1080i via DVI. However, I belive you cannot plug your HD set top box into the player to get a pass through to the display. At least I couldnt find anything about that in the specs.

Hey Thanks! Do you have this? If the DVI-D is NOT HDCP enabled; then it should connect to the L2335.

How does the video looks when compared with the same DVD played with PowerDVD 5.0 or something like that on a PC?

Paul





Originally posted by TauRus
Paul, here is a link to the Momitsu spec.
http://www.momitsu.com/dvd_880spec.html
Yes it can scale regular DVDs to 1080i via DVI. However, I belive you cannot plug your HD set top box into the player to get a pass through to the display. At least I couldnt find anything about that in the specs.

I've been following this thread closely as I am interested in a new 23-26" monitor for the same uses as Paul. I plan to use it primarily (75%) as a computer monitor for Photoshop, gaming, video/music editing, etc. from my G4, but also with the capability to watch HD content, preferably all over DVI. This is not an urgent purchase and I could probably wait 'till fall.

I just noticed Apple is offering their 23" LCD for $1500 when purchased with a G5. Given this price reduction and the (relative) antiquity of the Apple LCD, I wonder if we could expect a new panel sometime this year. Apple is notoriously close-lipped about new product intros, but given that the panel will be supplied elsewhere, any insider guesses about what replacement panel may be in the pipeline? Will they stick with LG?

I have one of the IBM 9503-DG3 22.2 inch LCD panels which has 3840x2400 wuxga resolution. I find the 1920x1200 is good for surfing, 3840x2400 font is quite small, even when I maximize it in windows properties and browser settings.

http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/s...03DG3&storeId=1

Gasser,

As you can see from my pictures, I have the Apple panels, and I recommend that you wait, as the L2335 is much better than the 23" Apple right now. Apple also does not seem to be on the HDTV wagon as yet. Things could change! Let's hope they will go HDTV soon,

Paul


Originally posted by Gasser
I've been following this thread closely as I am interested in a new 23-26" monitor for the same uses as Paul. I plan to use it primarily (75%) as a computer monitor for Photoshop, gaming, video/music editing, etc. from my G4, but also with the capability to watch HD content, preferably all over DVI. This is not an urgent purchase and I could probably wait 'till fall.

I just noticed Apple is offering their 23" LCD for $1500 when purchased with a G5. Given this price reduction and the (relative) antiquity of the Apple LCD, I wonder if we could expect a new panel sometime this year. Apple is notoriously close-lipped about new product intros, but given that the panel will be supplied elsewhere, any insider guesses about what replacement panel may be in the pipeline? Will they stick with LG?

This
http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=-840&langId=-1&partNumber=9503DG5&storeId=1

or


http://www-132.ibm.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=-840&langId=-1&partNumber=9503DG3&storeId=1