Originally posted by Huskerfan
MississippiMan, Are you employed by a theater company or what?!!! Man that is some set up!

Nope. I've been doing business as "Invisible Stereo" since 1978. I installed my first "Home Theater" on Marco Island, FL in 1979.

For some years before true "Bass" Tactiles came along, I was using a Full range Audio Transducer w/Sub Woofer Crossovers as a Bass Supplement. Trouble was, it took 4 of 'em to equal 1 true Tactile. But they were capable of "Musical Quality" bass, so I also use them a true Bass Drivers, part of 2 & 3 way set-up.

As in all things "Good", "More" is better. I learned early on that to get even distribution of effect, the use of Multiple Drivers would activate a large area far more efficiently that any "few" would, having to be turned up excessively high. When I design a Tactile LFE effect, I try to make it have "Thrill Ride" potential. That means it better not "Bottom Out" when the Cannon Fire in Master & Commander, or the Pod Race in SW deliver a sub-60 Hz signal.

Rattle, crackel, Buzz.

Tactiles have the unfortunate ability to take even slightly distorted Bass and make it sound like the World is coming apart at the seams. Since all of my efforts come up for review by my Client's friends and family everyday, I take NO chances. If they want a Tactile option, (...and they ALWAYS do if they hear/feel a good demo!) then they need must buy into the amount necessary to effect a truly awesome result. It's not all that expensive these days anyway.

I've also got about a gazillion photo examples of 'smallish' Bonus Room Theaters that have 8 Auras, (...or RBHs before they faded away...) in the Floor, and have 1 or 2 8" In-Wall Subs to round out the LFE. I prefer to effectively mix the two together to provide a seamless transition of effect.

For instance, when the Grapeshot rakes the Surprise in the "Under Attack" scene in M&C, the sensation should be a "wash" of resonance through the room that matches the transition of the sound as it travels from Front Left to Rear Right. Done right, and you ARE there.

I can easily remember back to 1994 when I first debuted The Fugitive at my local Home Show. When train hit the ditch, you could actually see people jump back, hands clutch throats, and eyeballs pop. Jurassic Park was one better, 'cause when the Glass of water showed the vibration waves, the room told you that the Biggun' was a comin'.

It took the mainstream A/V world quite a while to catch on to the fact than "Normals" would actually enjoy such an experience. It didn't help much that the only effort made at that time by a MFG to really produce something of quality came from those madmen at Clark Synthesis. Too expensive by far, and with way too much localized Tactile force, they choose to market to the "Hi-Fi" level market. All just to gain credibility, and to justify a higher price. Sound Advance made the same decision when putting out their SA-10. Both products have sold 'well' but have failed to register as 'doable' for the masses.
(In fact, I and my Dealers eat their respective lunches on a regular basis.)

Me? I just did what I knew what I knew would work well, and at a price a first time Home Builder could justify, especially if I caught them still remembering how they squeezed the blood from the hand of their spouse during a Demo. And, I have yet to ever install a true Tactile in a Chair or Couch. I tried an Aura once, mounted to a pre-adapted Theater Chair, and it essentially sucked; To much localized force. Very unnatural effect.

Wheres the Immodium?

IMO, to get a couch to do what needs to be done, the structure would have to be greatly re-inforced. This isn't possible, or advisable if your efforts to bring Home Theater into a Family Room involves a major Sectional sofa, or Rocker Recliners. And oh so many of my Dealers and my own projects are/were exactly that. In fact, that's what we are famous for, turning normal rooms into Home Theaters at the touch of the remote.

But as you already know, not always is there a decent Sub Floor available, what with Slab Construction as popular as it is. And the few souls with HTs in mind up North and East seem focused on basement locations for HTs. More concrete:( Early on, Platforms seemed "Too Campy' for those who previously hadn't even considered Surround Sound.

So I avidly pursued the ideal applications. Bonus Rooms over Garages.

Always a Sub Floor. The Dinosaur can stomp away without the sound waking Junior. (...or Mom.)

I observed that some are mounting the Auras' on structural members instead of Flat Boards. This obviously comes from Clark's early-on advice that their product be mounted on a Bridge of 2'x 4' that spanned two Floor joists. Sort of the old, "Shake a Tin sheet" kinda approach.

It was always a poor route to take, and you just know I told them so. I could do that, because the Engineer and Owner used the Rolen Star Audio Transducer as their core element in the original design. But, in the stretch to increase power handling, they dove into the middle of their unit, improved the Voice Coil, upped the quality of the Magnet Structure, and enhanced the resonance via a larger Plastic enclosure. The result was an incredibly powerful device, capable of excellent Full range production, but far too energetic at the epicenter (...as in earthquake...) to ever use in a wall or ceiling. So they concentrated in selling it as a pure Bass tactile to most everyone.

I ignored them completely, and they sort of faded to insignificance.
'Cept, you'll now notice they started producing 2 other examples, each with less power than the previous, and priced more sanely. But still, you can get about 6 Auras for one "cheapie" Clark, and cover far more area evenly. So they remain "ignored".

But cha all know most of this so I'm probably preachin' to da choir.

I stand ready to advise and assist any "Tactile Troll" in how to get the mosty bang for their buck out of their Tactile set-up. I'm doing likewise over in DIY screens, so why not overwork myself some more?

Why not, indeed.

Where is a good source to get the Bass Shakers?

partsexpress.com for cheapies, but after reading MissMan's post not too sure you want those.:D

Originally posted by spikemike
thanks, that sounds pretty doable. As long as i can maneuver the screwdriver/drill into the right position. Longer bits (drill and screwdriver) make things easier. You can also get extensions for bits. If you're not 100% at the right angle, it's OK. The purpose is to securely fasten everything together.

Originally posted by Huskerfan
partsexpress.com for cheapies, but after reading MissMan's post not too sure you want those.:D HMMM!! How I read MissMan's post was that be RECOMMENDed the Aura's. Multiples of them. Looking at his pic, there's Aura Pros all over the place.

MississippiMan
A couple of questions
1 - Why are the shakers mounted on circles of wood before attaching to the platform?
2 - Where is the ideal location for the shakers - directly under the seats, under the feet?
3 - Most of my subfloor location is blocked by return air ducts. Any suggestions?

Originally posted by MississippiMan



I tried an Aura once, mounted to a pre-adapted Theater Chair, and it essentially sucked; To much localized force. Very unnatural effect.

Wheres the Immodium?
.................................................

I observed that some are mounting the Auras' on structural members instead of Flat Boards. This obviously comes from Clark's early-on advice that their product be mounted on a Bridge of 2'x 4' that spanned two Floor joists. Sort of the old, "Shake a Tin sheet" kinda approach.

It was always a poor route to take, and you just know I told them so. I could do that, because the Engineer and Owner used the Rolen Star Audio Transducer as their core element in the original design. But, in the stretch to increase power handling, they dove into the middle of their unit, improved the Voice Coil, upped the quality of the Magnet Structure, and enhanced the resonance via a larger Plastic enclosure. The result was an incredibly powerful device, capable of excellent Full range production, but far too energetic at the epicenter (...as in earthquake...) to ever use in a wall or ceiling. So they concentrated in selling it as a pure Bass tactile to most everyone.



I guess we'll let MississippiMan tell us what he thinks. I guess after rereading his post I couldn't tell for sure if he is for or against. Sounds like he sure has a lotta experience in this stuff, though. Sorry if I mislead anybody. All I know is that I love the effect mine have with my Berklines and I bought the cheapies from partsexpress.com

Since I Bummed out on furniture early on, I'm a little biased toward energizing structure. Dedicated HT furniture can perform well, but I feel only with substantial reinforcing. This means pushing more power to the tactiles of course, but if you can saturate a chair, instead of pummeling it from under one spot, the effect will always be more realistic.

Please remember that although I advocate installing the tactiles as I do, I AM NOT the last word on every application or everyone's personal taste. I do feel I know what works best in most given situations, and in those I'm unfamilar with, supposition usually works out just as readily.

But everyone is different, and a Newbee just experiencing a Tactile Chair is likely to think it's the best thing since sex. Since I happen to like that particular activity, I prefer not to pop anybody's balloon on any comparable instance.

So just ask, and ye shall receive an answer. then use it according to your own judgment.

For Paw,

MississippiMan
A couple of questions
1 - Why are the shakers mounted on circles of wood before attaching to the platform?

To further dampen and thus distribute the energy into & across the material. as I've stated before, I absolutely deplore the feeling of the Tactile's piston effect eliminating from beneath one's feet like a hammer.

Those are 5/8" x 12 " diameter Plywood circles screwed into 3/4" B/C Pine overlaying a Floating sub floor. Bulk is better. better to have to drive bulk, and utilize more power doing so, than to have to make excuses why your is rattling like a New Years Noise maker

2 - Where is the ideal location for the shakers - directly under the seats, under the feet?

Under the front edge of the chair.


3 - Most of my subfloor location is blocked by return air ducts. Any suggestions?

Get a fan. :p

The Pro Tactiles are sealed, and do not conduct anymore noise thru a return when mounted withing same, anymore than they would if mounted in a plenum right beside a return.

Use whatever you can, just use some foam or silicone to seal any intrusions you make into the Return.

Originally posted by Huskerfan
I bought the cheapies from partsexpress.com

Same here, 6 from PE..

I guess the Husker folk know a good BANG4BUCK...:D

HH

I haven't read through this entire thread, so I apologize if the same question has been asked before. I just purchased 2 pair of the bass shakers from parts express, I will be also purchasing a cheap stereo receiver to power these, can someone either tell me or show me the best way to wire these up to the stereo receiver?

Thank you in advance.

Wire each pair in series and you'll present an 8ohm load to your prospective reciever,which it will like.

brickie

If I mount to a couch, should I go with the regular Aura's or the Pro's? Is 2 Pro's enough for a single couch? Or should I have 4? Or would 4 regular Aura's do the trick?

I'm a newb to this as well, but love the idea of putting my old Pioneer VSX-D1S back to work.

The theory of 1 per seat should serve this situation well..Iv'e got 3 on my large couch,1 mounted under each cushion seat area,and it works awesome!!I don't think it matter between pros or regular..Many have posted and achieved great results with either ones.

brickie

Originally posted by brickie
The theory of 1 per seat should serve this situation well..Iv'e got 3 on my large couch,1 mounted under each cushion seat area,and it works awesome!!I don't think it matter between pros or regular..Many have posted and achieved great results with either ones.

brickie

Thanks. :)

I think I'll go with the regulars for now, put 4 on my couch and 2 on my love seat, and mount them like you did yours, which is nice and simple looking. :)

Is 16 gauge wire okay to use?

It might be,but I would go with 14 if I could..

brickie

Originally posted by brickie
It might be,but I would go with 14 if I could..

brickie

Thanks.

Will it matter if I offset the left and right output from the amp? Like if had 5 shakers. Can I wire 2 in series for the left amp for 8 ohms, and then do 2 in parallel for 2 ohms series with 1 more to make it a total of 6 ohms?

It will work,you just might get a more dramatic effect on one side vs the other..But you should be able to negate some of that be adjusting the left and right balance control .You'll be in good shape.

brickie

Originally posted by brickie
It will work,you just might get a more dramatic effect on one side vs the other..But you should be able to negate some of that be adjusting the left and right balance control .You'll be in good shape.

brickie

Great. Thanks for all the help. :)

Thanks Brickie

Originally posted by Mntneer
Thanks.
Can I ... then do 2 in parallel for 2 ohms series with 1 more to make it a total of 6 ohms?

If you wire the shakers the way you described, then the single shaker in series with the other parallel combination will get 2/3rds of the power delivered to it (It has two thirds of the resistance), the other two in parallel will divide the other third equally between them (in other words, they will each get 1/6th of the power)

Now, if you are applying 60 watts, the power would be delivered like this:

The Single-Series-Shaker - 40 watts
Parallel-Shaker #1 - 10 watts
Parallel-Shaker #2 - 10 watts

You will be overdriving one shaker, that's for sure, so be careful with how much power you apply. Also expect the one chair to be shaking way more then the other two.

The only two possible solutions for even shaking with three shakers is to either wire them all in series (12 ohm total resistance and an easy load for most amplifiers) or all three in parallel (1.333 ohms and a nearly impossible load for most amplifiers... most will overheat, shut-down, or worse.)

In either case, the three will all shake evenly. If you adjust your left/right balance control on your amplifier, it will be possible to make the two in series on one channel shake the same as the three in series on the other channel. (it will be off-center since the loads are different)

Joe L.

Originally posted by PAW
Longer bits (drill and screwdriver) make things easier. You can also get extensions for bits. If you're not 100% at the right angle, it's OK. The purpose is to securely fasten everything together.

Well i hit a new snag, if i wanted to put a board that is the full width of the couch, i wouldn't be able to get it in, cause the couch has edges on the sides that would make it impossible to get the board up against the crossbeams, however i could run a board from front to back which isn't quite as wide as the couch, would that work just as well? TIA

Spike i believe it would.Just make sure you get it as sold to the couch as possible..The vibration will be felt all thru the couch..

J.L., thanks for clarifying about 5 shaker hookup..

brickie

Originally posted by J. L.
If you wire the shakers the way you described, then the single shaker in series with the other parallel combination will get 2/3rds of the power delivered to it (It has two thirds of the resistance), the other two in parallel will divide the other third equally between them (in other words, they will each get 1/6th of the power)

Now, if you are applying 60 watts, the power would be delivered like this:

The Single-Series-Shaker - 40 watts
Parallel-Shaker #1 - 10 watts
Parallel-Shaker #2 - 10 watts

You will be overdriving one shaker, that's for sure, so be careful with how much power you apply. Also expect the one chair to be shaking way more then the other two.

The only two possible solutions for even shaking with three shakers is to either wire them all in series (12 ohm total resistance and an easy load for most amplifiers) or all three in parallel (1.333 ohms and a nearly impossible load for most amplifiers... most will overheat, shut-down, or worse.)

In either case, the three will all shake evenly. If you adjust your left/right balance control on your amplifier, it will be possible to make the two in series on one channel shake the same as the three in series on the other channel. (it will be off-center since the loads are different)

Joe L.

Thanks for the help. Sounds like I want to just run them in series to be safer with the amp.

They'll be in hopefully tomorrow and I'll have some time this weekend to install. :)

Well, they came in today! I couldn't wait until this weekend to try them out. So I hooked them up to my old Pioneer Receiver (a pair of them wired in series) put in Attack fo the Clones, and after a few minor adjustments to speaker settings on my Sony Receiver and adjusting the volume on the Pioneer, I placed the Aura's under the seat cusion of my coach and sat on them. :)

Wow... very cool. I can't wait until this weekend so I can hard mount them to my couch and loveseat.

What crossover setting do most people use with their amps to get the most out of the shakers? I defenitely noticed a difference between setting crossover at 60MHz versus 100. Unfortunately my Sony only has 3 crossover settings, 60, 100 and I think 150, so I'm limited to one of the three.

Also, if I increase the Sub output from the Sony, would that put a lesser strain on the Pioneer when it comes to driving the shakers? I'll have a pair of 3 wire in series, 12 ohms each, and don't want to over tax the Pioneer.

At 12 ohms your Pioneer will be loafing!

brickie

Originally posted by brickie
At 12 ohms your Pioneer will be loafing!

brickie

It always did have a very lazy side to it.... never taking out the garbage.... complaining about mowing the grass.... not picking up after itself.... :D

Without a doubt, the BEST cheap upgrade anyone can make to a home theater.

I got my Aura's mounted to my couch last night and hooked up to the my Amp, set my main Receiver's crossover to 60MHz, adjust the volume on the Shaker Amp, and WOW! I saw someone mention The Phantom Menace pod race scene as a good one to test it out on. The difference between non-shaker and shaker is incredible.

Even my wife, who I didn't know I was doing this until after the fact, was shocked and thought they were very cool indeed.

Thanks to everyone for their help, this has been the greatest, easiest upgrade to a system I've done for myself in a while.

Another couple questions. I know that there's been some talk of woods, that using Harder woods is probably best. In my rush to get them installed I just picked up some cheap Pine boards at Lowes. Ran a board across the bottom of the couch, attaching it (it was a 1x6x8) with wood screws at every framing piece on the couch. I put 4 on my couch and 2 on my love seat. I definitely notice that the love seat doesn't nearly have the shake that the couch as, and at times the shake feels more localized to the center part of the couches.

I had space them out evenly across the length of the pine board but I'm begining to wonder a couple things.

1) Should I switch from Pine to something much harder?

2) Should I mount the Aura's on the board close to areas where the board is anchored to the couch frame?

3) Should I put 2 more Aura's on my love seat and have 4 for each?

I'm gather that the larger surface area you mount these things to, and then in turn mount to your couch, will allow for more of a shake out of the Aura. Now the shake moves along the pine and into the wood of the couch at the points where the couch and pine are joined. So I'm thinking that a larger (wider) board would be better than a thinner one, and I'm think that the Aura's should be mounted closer to frame points on the couch?

Good morning..As you know i used a piece of wood that covered just about the entire bottom of my couch and love seat..That could be helping.I don't think you necessarily need to have them mounted over the couches wood support..When you securely mount the wood to the couch it becomes a part of the framing..The vibration should be transferred thru out the couch.I only have 3 on my couch and 2 on my love seat and it works fine..I would probably look at the size of the board first..Unless that love seat is enormous,2 shakers should be fine for it..

brickie

I'd replace the wood with something less soft. Pine is probably too soft a wood.

I think I will switch out the pine with a hard board that is much wider than the 7.5 the pine board is.

i just finished up my couch. these things are pretty cool, i bought a 4x4 handypanel and cut it to fit, it was quite the project. Thanks for all the help.

Well I order another pair and plan on using 4 on the couch and 4 on the love seat.

My reciever can easily handle a 4 Ohm load, so I was wondering what's the best way to wire 4 25 Watt Aura's.

2 in series then paralleled with 2 more that are in series? (4 Ohm load correct?)
or
2 in parallel then placed in series with 2 more in parallel? (4 Ohm load correct?)
or
4 in series for a 16 Ohm load?

Originally posted by Mntneer
Well I order another pair and plan on using 4 on the couch and 4 on the love seat.

My reciever can easily handle a 4 Ohm load, so I was wondering what's the best way to wire 4 25 Watt Aura's.

2 in series then paralleled with 2 more that are in series? (4 Ohm load correct?)
or
2 in parallel then placed in series with 2 more in parallel? (4 Ohm load correct?)
or
4 in series for a 16 Ohm load?

Either of the first 2 ways should be find as far as your math and creating a four ohm load, I wouldn't recommend the third way.

Originally posted by spikemike
Either of the first 2 ways should be find as far as your math and creating a four ohm load, I wouldn't recommend the third way.

MississippiMan had mentioned though that you should never series before paralleling, so I was wondering if there was advantage in this case of doing either of the first 2 choices.

With all respect to MississippiMan, it makes no difference to the electrons if you parallel/series vs series/parallel in this situation.

Do whatever is easier to wire physically and you will be fine.

Joe L.

Originally posted by J. L.
With all respect to MississippiMan, it makes no difference to the electrons if you parallel/series vs series/parallel in this situation.

Do whatever is easier to wire physically and you will be fine.

Joe L.

Great, thanks. :)

Originally posted by J. L.
With all respect to MississippiMan, it makes no difference to the electrons if you parallel/series vs series/parallel in this situation.

Do whatever is easier to wire physically and you will be fine.

Joe L.

That is not correct, if dependability and power handling is taken into account. In the applications I design, power handling is a very essential aspect of the whole scenario

Any series circuit is only as strong as a single device's power handling limitations. If you series 2 Tactiles and each are rated at 25 watts, all you can dependably drive into that circuit is 25 watts. But gee, if ou have two devices that each can handle 25 watts, that means the most you can drive into each is 12.5 watts without risking damage to the circuit.

At lower output levels, what Joe says is essentially correct. But Tactiles are hungry beasts, and at high power levels, things are quite a bit different. I've seen the first device in a series circuit fry on a transient spike because the that spike hit that coil first in the series, and it gave up the ghost.

Also, when you series and raise the impedance, you force your amplifier to try to drive power into a higher impedance. This is self defeating because higher impedances pull less current, resulting in your having to turn up the amplifier's volume to compensate, resulting in potential distortion, resulting in potential Voice Coil failure due to it's being assaulted by square waves. In the case of tactile applications, the dedicated LFE signal being utilized is already at a maximum amplitude. Big wave forms are being produced, making amplifier outputs work harder by far (in bursts) than other instances. This often results in distortion that while subtle at low volumes, becomes a Tsunami of waveform energy at the power levels most Tactile applications require.

If you have Tactiles mounted on a thin board under a chair or couch, perhaps you can look at my paranoia with a sideways glance. But if your going to use any real power, and be driving at least 4 Tactiles, you should parallel 2 units down to 2 Ohms, then series two pair back up to 4 Ohms.
That will create a circuit that can handle 50 continuous watts (12.5 per unit ) The power amount per Tactile hasn't changed, but the strength of the circuit has by 100%

Ah but....., if your Amplifier can't handle a 4 Ohm Load, then yikes, you would need to series, and live with the situation. Or buy a decent amp.
The amps I use for Tactiles MUST have a "constant" 2 Ohm drive capability for I often parallel 4 together, then series two groups of 4. Of course, I'm using ONLY Aura Pros, not the "coffee can" Auras, and they have twice the power handling capability to start out with.
And....., I'm driving primarily Sub Flooring and/or Platforms. "Thicker'er" means more "Power'er" is required.

So take my advice in the proper perspective, and apply it to your specific situation

Whadda I know anyway?:rolleyes:

Originally posted by MississippiMan
That is not correct, if dependability and power handling is taken into account. In the applications I design, power handling is a very essential aspect of the whole scenario

Any series circuit is only as strong as a single device's power handling limitations. If you series 2 Tactiles and each are rated at 25 watts, all you can dependably drive into that circuit is 25 watts. But gee, if ou have two devices that each can handle 25 watts, that means the most you can drive into each is 12.5 watts without risking damage to the circuit.

At lower output levels, what Joe says is essentially correct. But Tactiles are hungry beasts, and at high power levels, things are quite a bit different. I've seen the first device in a series circuit fry on a transient spike because the that spike hit that coil first in the series, and it gave up the ghost.

Also, when you series and raise the impedance, you force your amplifier to try to drive power into a higher impedance. This is self defeating because higher impedances pull less current, resulting in your having to turn up the amplifier's volume to compensate, resulting in potential distortion, resulting in potential Voice Coil failure due to it's being assaulted by square waves. In the case of tactile applications, the dedicated LFE signal being utilized is already at a maximum amplitude. Big wave forms are being produced, making amplifier outputs work harder by far (in bursts) than other instances. This often results in distortion that while subtle at low volumes, becomes a Tsunami of waveform energy at the power levels most Tactile applications require.

If you have Tactiles mounted on a thin board under a chair or couch, perhaps you can look at my paranoia with a sideways glance. But if your going to use any real power, and be driving at least 4 Tactiles, you should parallel 2 units down to 2 Ohms, then series two pair back up to 4 Ohms.
That will create a circuit that can handle 50 continuous watts (12.5 per unit ) The power amount per Tactile hasn't changed, but the strength of the circuit has by 100%

Ah but....., if your Amplifier can't handle a 4 Ohm Load, then yikes, you would need to series, and live with the situation. Or buy a decent amp.
The amps I use for Tactiles MUST have a "constant" 2 Ohm drive capability for I often parallel 4 together, then series two groups of 4. Of course, I'm using ONLY Aura Pros, not the "coffee can" Auras, and they have twice the power handling capability to start out with.
And....., I'm driving primarily Sub Flooring and/or Platforms. "Thicker'er" means more "Power'er" is required.

So take my advice in the proper perspective, and apply it to your specific situation

Whadda I know anyway?:rolleyes:

Thanks for the help. The Pioneer I'm using to drive these can easily handle a 4 Ohm load, so I'm going to take your advice and Parallel them to 2, then Series them back up to 4. I'm only driving some couches for now, and It won't be until I rebuild that I'll be driving a platform and will switch to something other than the 25 Watt Auras.

BTW... I checked out your web site.... Some of those setups are very nice.

Originally posted by MississippiMan
That is not correct, if dependability and power handling is taken into account. In the applications I design, power handling is a very essential aspect of the whole scenario

Any series circuit is only as strong as a single device's power handling limitations. If you series 2 Tactiles and each are rated at 25 watts, all you can dependably drive into that circuit is 25 watts. But gee, if ou have two devices that each can handle 25 watts, that means the most you can drive into each is 12.5 watts without risking damage to the circuit.

Whadda I know anyway?:rolleyes:

I will not argue with whadda you know, but, you are not correct in how "wattage" divides among series and parallel circuits.

You basic mistake is that we do not drive "watts" into a circuit, but instead, we supply a potential source of electrons (the output of an amplifier). Depending upon the resistance completing a circuit, a given number of electrons will flow. More resistance = less electrons, lower resistance = more electrons.

Now, for a given potential (measured in volts) we can determine the number of electrons (measured in amperes) based on the resistance (measured in ohms)

amperes = volts / resistance

So, if we pick a voltage of 10 volts (supplied by our shaker amp) and attach a 4 ohm load we will have 2.5 amperes of current flowing.

If we increase the voltage to 20 volts (by turning up the gain control on the shaker amplifier) and attach an 8 ohm load (two shakers in series), we will still have 2.5 amperes of current flowing. Remember, current (in amperes) = volts / resistance, so 20 / 8 = 2.5 amperes of current flow.

Now... we can determine the power dissipated across a given shaker by multiplying the voltage across it by the current through it. In my first example, the power would be 10 volts * 2.5 amperes, or 25 watts.

In my second example, since there are two shakers with identical resistance in series, half of the voltage would would be dropped across each. We can prove this by using ohms law once more, the voltage across two points = current * resistance. So 2.5 amps times 4 ohms = 10 volts across each shaker. Added together, we have the total 20 volts as is being supplied by the amplifier.

Now, in all of my examples, the shakers have 10 volts across them and the current through them is 2.5 amperes.

Lastly, you calculate power by multiplying current times voltage. 10 volts * 2.5 amperes = 25 watts.

In the second example with two series connected shakers, you will have a total of 50 watts dissipated since the current (2.5 * 20 volts = 50) Each shaker has half the voltage across it, since they have equal resistances, so each gets half the power. 25 watts each. Wadda you know.

Looks like we can supply more than the 12.5 watts you stated... all because we do not supply "watts" but instead "volts potential across a given resistance"

A perfect amplifier would be able to supply the same output voltage regardless of the resistance connected across its output and the resulting current could be infinite. In reality, none can supply infinite current.

A one ohm load applied to an amplifier with 20 volts potential would require it to supply 20 amperes of current. Since most amplifiers are limited by either their power supplies or output transistors in the amount of current they can supply, they advertise a minimum resistance with witch they may have connected as a load. That is why we wire a series and/or parallel combination of shakers when multiple are attached to the same amplifier.

I'll repeat what I said earlier, use whatever wiring of series/parallel is easiest physically. If you want to do parallel first, fine, it surely wont hurt anything, but it is exactly the same as far as the number of electrons through the shakers as the alternate wiring discussed.

Joe L.

Originally posted by Mntneer
Thanks for the help. The Pioneer I'm using to drive these can easily handle a 4 Ohm load, so I'm going to take your advice and Parallel them to 2, then Series them back up to 4. I'm only driving some couches for now, and It won't be until I rebuild that I'll be driving a platform and will switch to something other than the 25 Watt Auras.

BTW... I checked out your web site.... Some of those setups are very nice.

Thank you. there are most of them pretty old. For the last 18 months, my efforts as far as Home Theaters have all been toward Front Projection, since the drastic drop in PJ prices occurred.

Don't dismiss JL's advice below. I did not intend to come off that way myself. But over the years, the circuits I use have far more power driven into them than normal. At those voltages, there are significant differences to the first load that occur during transients. Hardly nothing in use in a home produces instant like a LFE output.

We are not talking about constant voltages; these are not Christmas tree lights here. But in that vein, consider why, when a series String light is overloaded, (and there is no Fuse) that the first bulb in the series becomes the one that fails first? In such instances, the first device in the circuit will bear the brunt of the transient. Ohms law is a constant, but it deals with constants primarily. Transients can overwhelm the properties of any circuit.

It's happened to too many individuals using the same set-up over the last 30 years for me to judge it otherwise, and when the proper sequence of events is followed, the potential for a problem disappears.

I am going to be wiring 7 Pro shakers, but need an amp.
What is an economical way to power them. What have you guys been using? It needs to have an IR remote.
Thanks

Craig

Originally posted by suffolk112000
I am going to be wiring 7 Pro shakers, but need an amp.
What is an economical way to power them. What have you guys been using? It needs to have an IR remote.
Thanks

Craig

I'm using an old Pioneer VSX-D1S Pro Logic Receiver. Works great.

I tried to pick up an amp at the local Pawn shop last weekend for $50. They weren't going below $79... I'll wait them out, and stop back in another week.

I looked through the ENTIRE stack of them before I found one that would handle as low as a 4 ohm load (which I feel is important, in case you don't have it matched exactly to 8ohms). Let's just hope none of you guys live near me and go to the same pawn shops.... hee hee

Originally posted by jenielsen
I tried to pick up an amp at the local Pawn shop last weekend for $50. They weren't going below $79... I'll wait them out, and stop back in another week.

I looked through the ENTIRE stack of them before I found one that would handle as low as a 4 ohm load (which I feel is important, in case you don't have it matched exactly to 8ohms). Let's just hope none of you guys live near me and go to the same pawn shops.... hee hee

I think I saw that AMP and picked it up yesterday... works like a charm. ;) Obviously just kidding. :D
Thanks for the input. I do have an eight + year old 100 watt per channel Dolby digital Pioneer receiver in my living room. I have been thinking of upgrading anyways it anyways.
Are you guys running pro shakers?


Craig

Originally posted by suffolk112000
I think I saw that AMP and picked it up yesterday... works like a charm. ;) Obviously just kidding. :D
Thanks for the input. I do have an eight + year old 100 watt per channel Dolby digital Pioneer receiver in my living room. I have been thinking of upgrading anyways it anyways.
Are you guys running pro shakers?


Craig

Many use Pro's, but some of us, myself included, use the regular Aura's.

I have 4 on a couch and most definitely feel the shake.

Price wise, they were the best bet for me. I could get 4 pair for around $100, where as 8 Pro's was going to run over $200.

Originally posted by Mntneer


Price wise, they were the best bet for me. I could get 4 pair for around $100, where as 8 Pro's was going to run over $200.

sound great. :D

Craig

I should have posted my question here instead of on the main page.

Do you get any benefit with using shakers if you don't have a sub? Is it just going to shake my couch without the low-end sound? I assume that's all I'll get. That'd be a bit odd...

I think when they "extend" the bottom end of your sub is when they really get impressive.When you've got a decent sub that does a great job, then you add these and now you get that "feel it in your seat" type feeling is when they shine.

Unless your mains are super capable,i'd see the effect being unrealistic.Such as putting them all by themselves with a Bose system!They're not a replacement of a sub,just a good add on to it!

brickie

That's what I figured, but since I'm just now building my HT, I figured if I could add on something cool for under $100 I'd be all over it. I may buy the shakers right now anyway ($28 a set?!? Are you KIDDING?) and just hold on to them until I finally get my sub.

That I would do..Wish I had bought more of the pros when I had a chance.Now i'll just use some regular ones if need be, but most definitely not a bad idea to get some early.

brickie

Having read this thread, I couldn't resist and so ordered a 120 plate amp and two pros from PE.

A couple of nights ago I flipped the couch, screwed on some plywood across the frame members and screwed down the pros in series.

I was ready to cry when the test tone produced only the slightest rumbling effect, but I threw on a couple of DVD's and felt much better. The truck scene in i-Robot had me grinning like an idiot.

I am feeding the amp with the LFE pre-out from the main receiver (split with the regular subs).

Since the LFE channel is already subject to the main receiver cross-over, does it make much difference what I set the plate amp cross over at?

I assume that dialing it down will further limit the low frequencies that reach the amp and shakers, but that at a certain point, turning it up with have no further effect.

Is this correct? Thx.

Just wanted to let you all know, Parts-Express has the Aura Shakers in Stock again....for $38.88
very cool!
Check it out here:

Aura Pro Bass Shakers (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=299-028)

Cheers!
:)

Q: re: hooking up the shakers in serial/parallel:

All of the wiring schematics showing parallel hookups of serial chains show the wires just branching off somewhere at what appears to be an arbitrary junction point.

Does it matter where in the wire run that the parallel set is added?

In other words, can I connect a second series in parallel to the existing set but runing the new set off the terminals of the existing shakers (+ on one, - on the other), or do I litterally have to tap into the wires before they reach the first series set?

Thx.

Ok, just an update...(I know its been a long time). This is easily the best $100 I've spent on my HT. I can't tell you how many people have commented on the 'feeling' of watching movies at my place. For me, I think I enjoy them most when playing on the XBOX. The 'whump' of a good explosion or blast makes the games so much more immersive. Definitely worth the money!

Originally posted by Opus33
Q: re: hooking up the shakers in serial/parallel:

All of the wiring schematics showing parallel hookups of serial chains show the wires just branching off somewhere at what appears to be an arbitrary junction point.

Does it matter where in the wire run that the parallel set is added?

In other words, can I connect a second series in parallel to the existing set but runing the new set off the terminals of the existing shakers (+ on one, - on the other), or do I litterally have to tap into the wires before they reach the first series set?

Thx.

You can parallel off of the + and - terminals. Electrically, it is the same.

I'm just laying down another "Thunder Floor" style Tactile system today. 16 Aura Pros.
8 in a 10" tall x 9' deep x 15' wide Seating Platform
8 in the Sub Floor 5' in front of the leading edge of the Platform.
Each grouping of 8 will be considered a separate channel, with separate EQ/Volume capability

Each channel will be a constant 2 Ohm load. 4 in parallel then 2 groups of 4 series-ed.

Power Supplied by 1 Audio Source AMP 300 (300 Watts x 2 @ 2 Ohms per)

Pics tonight ifn' ya want 'em?

Please yes! I always love drooling over other's work.

Ok, final dumb question:

Can I add in parallel a series set of two regular shakers to my existing series set of two pros? Driving with a 120W plate amp.

My tenuous grasp of all that has been posted in this thread to date suggests that the ohms would be reduced to 4 and so my only concern would be overdriving the regular shakers.

Is this a problem?

Thx.

Originally posted by MississippiMan
I'm just laying down another "Thunder Floor" style Tactile system today. 16 Aura Pros.
8 in a 10" tall x 9' deep x 15' wide Seating Platform
8 in the Sub Floor 5' in front of the leading edge of the Platform.
Each grouping of 8 will be considered a separate channel, with separate EQ/Volume capability

Each channel will be a constant 2 Ohm load. 4 in parallel then 2 groups of 4 series-ed.

Power Supplied by 1 Audio Source AMP 300 (300 Watts x 2 @ 2 Ohms per)

Pics tonight ifn' ya want 'em?

Yeah, I want to see pics of this myself!Sounds like this will give a buttkicker setup a run for it's money.

brickie

I just thought of a cool idea out of no where you know how at theme parks they have camera to show your face goin down like a log flum what if you set up a camera to go off the first time the shakers go off to see there face. I think it is a pretty cool idea? Anyone?

Originally posted by Dan Forsyth
I just thought of a cool idea out of no where you know how at theme parks they have camera to show your face goin down like a log flum what if you set up a camera to go off the first time the shakers go off to see there face. I think it is a pretty cool idea? Anyone? http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050311/capt.xaf10403110834.philippines_tarsier_xaf104.jpg

HH

That thar is lookln' lyke mu old friend "Little Bob" looks jus aforn' he chucks up dat ol' Plug he swallers sumtimes. A liddle bedder axtually.


Well guess what? I installed Full Range Transducers in a Water Park Amusement Ride back in 1982 in Fort Myers Beach, FL It was the expressions of the folks as they splashed to shore that were worth watching!

Much later (1994) at a large Custom Home Show, I set up a Sony Hi-8 Hi-Fi HandyCam up on a shelf and secretly recorded the expressions of the crowd as the Train hit the Berm Wall in the Fugitive. Eyes Popped! Jaws Dropped! People jumped backward or clutched the arm of the person next to them.

And all that from my just using 8 puny Rolen Stars being delivered LFE from the Sub-out jack on the very first Pioneer Dolby AC-3 Receiver to grace the streets of Memphis, TN (AC-3 LD Player too!) ( I had some pull with the Regional Rep.) The amp was a "hidden" Sansui Stereo Power amp 'circa 1978. Pawn shop acquisition. $80.00 I ignored the first Auras as being worthless, and laughed at the excessive cost of the Clarks. Aura Pros finally brought me around. by 1997. (Would that I had tried the Auras !!!)

The next year it was Jurassic Park, and the "Step on the Explorer" scene.
But actually, the scariest and most impressive part was when that big Gecko growled at the Kids through the Car door! You'd of thought you were standing in the monster's mouth. People actually turned pale, and left the room, it was so realistic.

Now that's "Tactile".

BTW, Memphis got caught by some "Tornado Weather" today that included torrential rains in places. One place it "Tsunamied" on was my Job site. The 2" x 8"s laid down into the house were submerged, and the concrete slab in the house was full of standing water in many places, one of which was directly under the sub-floor where 8 Aura Pros must go.

GFI or no, this Homey don't mess with 1/2" 6 Amp Drill Motors, or the Power cords that supply them, when the cords coming into the House and room are laying in water, and I have to work on a 8' Aluminum Ladder?

Yeah.

Right.

Ya' alls gotta wait 'till damorrow.

Originally posted by MississippiMan
I'm just laying down another "Thunder Floor" style Tactile system today. 16 Aura Pros.
8 in a 10" tall x 9' deep x 15' wide Seating Platform
8 in the Sub Floor 5' in front of the leading edge of the Platform.
Each grouping of 8 will be considered a separate channel, with separate EQ/Volume capability

Each channel will be a constant 2 Ohm load. 4 in parallel then 2 groups of 4 series-ed.

Power Supplied by 1 Audio Source AMP 300 (300 Watts x 2 @ 2 Ohms per)

Pics tonight ifn' ya want 'em?

I'd LOVE to see pics! :)

I want to run three shakers on each couch. If I understand all of this
correctly, I should run three in series and run each series off each channel
of my stereo amp. Is this correct assuming my amp is 8 ohm and three
in series is 12 ohm? any harm?

lmao HUsker thatn would probably be just about it:):):)

Ok. here ya go.

I did manage to get 0ne Platform panel down before I realized I wanted to snap these shots, so obviously, you only see the remaining one featured. This Theater being upstairs, the standing water on the slab below wasn't a hinderence. however, the 8 Pros that must go under the Sub-Flooring must wait, and so being, the photos of that application as well.

But only a day or so.

PS, Note the "Lady" Technician. Invisible Stereo is an Equal Opportunity Employer. Especially when they wear Short Shorts in the summer. :p

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/MississippiMan/Light%20Fusion%20raw%20Images/Light%20Fusion%20with%20MMud%20SE/1a-Platformw-4AuraProsGirlTech.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/MississippiMan/Light%20Fusion%20raw%20Images/Light%20Fusion%20with%20MMud%20SE/1a-Platformw-step.jpg


In the Pic below, you see how the Platform, a 2" x 4" crossed layer on top of a "Floating Base" of 2" x 8"s, was first set on top of a healthy dollop of Liquid nails, then Nailed directly to the 2" x 8"s The 2" x 8"s are floating on top of Black Exterior Sheathing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/MississippiMan/Light%20Fusion%20raw%20Images/Light%20Fusion%20with%20MMud%20SE/1a-PlatformGlueNail.jpg

Very healthy..LOL

brickie

Ok, guys, time for me to ask a couple of questions. I got in my 6 Pro Aura's and 120w plate amp today. I have two rows of theater recliners, one row of three on a riser and one row sitting on a plywood floor. I cannot get under the floor to mount the front row there, so I am left with mounting them to the recliners themselves. The Lane recliners have metal pieces that are parallel to the floor that I could screw a 24 x 20 piece of 1/2" plywood to, then I can mount the Aura's to the top of the plywood. The plywood would lay flat on the carpet, kinda a base for the recliner. The Aura would be firing downward. My first question is, will this work good?
Obviously, I will mount the second row under the riser, firing up.

Second question, can someone tell me the optimum way of connecting these Aura's to the amp. I have read most of the thread, but I would really appreciate another tutorial that starts right at the amp and makes all six shakers work in an efficient and potent manner.
Thanks

If the amp is stereo wire 3 in series for a 12 ohm load and put 3 on each channel.If it's a mono amp then you could do 3 in series(twice) and then run 1 of those parallel which should be a 6 ohm load if my math is correct.Should give you nice even shaking at all shakers and load should be easy for amp either way.

brickie

Brickie, the amp is the PE 300-792 120 watt amp (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-792) .
Is there a nice easy diagram somewhere that will show me how you are talking about wiring it?
Sorry to be so slow, but my knowledge of wiring is pretty slim. And, I'd rather not have to pay anyone to install these.
Thanks

If that is a Stereo amplifier, do the following;

Each Transducer has a Positive & Negative post.

Take one negative, and attach it via jumper wire to the Positive post on the second 'Ducer. Repeat this again to the third, the negative of one 'ducer to the positive of another.

With three connected this way, you now take the 2 conductor wire coming from one of the Amp's outputs and attach the negative conductor to the empty negative post of the three 'ducer circuit, And waddya know? ya take the Positive "Amp" wire and attach it to the only empty Positive post on that same circuit.

You now have a 12 Ohm load.

It aint a picture, but it's also not so very hard to fathom either.

What's an Ohm?

Ask me that and I'll murdalize ya!

LOL I wouldn't dare!
Thanks for the connection info.
Any thoughts on setting up my first row recliners in this manner?

I have the very same plate amp. IF I follow the folks above, you need to set up two sets of three in series and then connect those sets in parallel.

Take the red lead from the plate amp output, connect it (via however much speaker wire you need) to the red terminal of the first series of three and then connect the black lead and connect it to the black terminal on the last shaker of that first series. In between you connect black/red/black/red accross that first series.

Then, take a jumper wire from that first red terminal and connect it to the red terminal of the second set, do the same series wiring, and take another jumper wire from the second series' black terminal to the black terminal on the first series that has the black amp lead.

This, I belive, will give you two parallel sets of three in series. Really bad drawing is attached.

Now for my question: Can I do this same setup mixing a pair of pros and a pair of regular shakers on this same amp? (don't ask, just found the second regular pair).

Thanks.

Opus33,

One AVS member was told by Aura that the major difference between the PRO model aura and the non-pro model is the heat-sink fins on the body of the pro units. They are identical inside otherwise.

The fins allow the PRO models to tolerate more heat (read that as tolerate more power) At the lower recommended power level specified for the non-pro models, both the pro and non-pro models will shake equally hard. Obviously, the pro models can shake a bit harder than the non pro when fed higher power than recommended for the non-pro models

Since you are wiring them for equal power, they will all heat equally.

You can mix the non-pro and pro as long as you keep below the power rating of the non-pro models.

Joe L.

Thanks Joe.

One final thing then I'm all set - the amp is a 120W max subwoofer plate amp. The regulars are rated 25 w each I think.

How do I calculate whether the amp, with two regulars and two pros in parallel/series, will overdrive the regulars in this configuration?

Thx.

You should be okay by just adjusting the gain(volume) knob of the amplifier.

brickie

Originally posted by J. L.
Opus33,

One AVS member was told by Aura that the major difference between the PRO model aura and the non-pro model is the heat-sink fins on the body of the pro units. They are identical inside otherwise. That was me. Here's the info (it's probably buried in the this thread some where ;) )

My email to Aura Sound ask:

1 - Driven at the same output (i.e., volume or watts) does the Pro Bass Shaker produce more vibrations than the Bass Shaker? I understand that the Pro will produce a higher peak force at it's max input power. I'm more curious that if they were both driven at lets say 5 watts, would the Pro produce more Lbf or N (newtons)?
2 - Besides from the fins on the Pro Bass Shakers, are there any internal differences between them and the Bass Shakers? Like a bigger piston, bigger magnet, etc.

Their answer was:

No difference at 5 watts same Lbf...fins dissipate heat better (stability in coil impedance) no difference in internal composition.

Comparing the Pros to non-Pros:
The internals are the same
Same output at lower inputs
Fins are just for cooling

So, unless you are driving the Pros harder, the non-Pros should work just fine.

Hmmm...
Really... So in that case, I'm glad I bought 5 pair of the regulars vs. spending double the money on the pros. Now I've just got to get these things hooked up...

Maybe it's time to visit the pawn shops tomorrow and try to "negotiate" that 4ohm (capable) receiver again. Last time he wouldn't go lower than $80... I wanna pay $50 given what I'm using it for.

Any ideas on a good way to hook up 5 of them without jacking up the receiver (3 on one couch, 2 on the loveseat)???? I've been through some of the diagrams and I'm still lost.

Didn't I see at one point where someone said that a resistor could be usind in place of one of the shakers (so that it would see 3 on each side instead of 3 on one and 2 on the other)?

Easiest is two in series on one channel, three in series on the other, and move the L/R balance control off center till they shake equally.

If you do use a resistor, remember it has to dissipate 25 watts as heat, so purchase one with at least that power rating, and mount it where the heat will not melt anything. (Ever grabbed hold the tip of a 25 watt soldering iron... same amount of heat ... watts is watts :D)

Thanks very much Opus33. That was absolutely perfect. A child could install these with those instructions:) .
Thanks again

I have an old JVC stereo receiver w/80w RMS per channel into 8 ohms receiver not being used since I bought my new 7.1 receiver. I would like to install bass shakers under a riser that I built. I have access to the bottom before I nail and carpet it. My questions are: where is the best place to buy these bass shakers? and can I use this old receiver to drive them off my sub? Sub is Def Tech. Pro 250watt. thanks a newbie

Sure, it will work fine. Most of us are getting them from Parts Express I believe.

Originally posted by J. L.
Easiest is two in series on one channel, three in series on the other, and move the L/R balance control off center till they shake equally.

If you do use a resistor, remember it has to dissipate 25 watts as heat, so purchase one with at least that power rating, and mount it where the heat will not melt anything. (Ever grabbed hold the tip of a 25 watt soldering iron... same amount of heat ... watts is watts :D)

Well, not quite. The element being heated on a Soldering Iron or Wood Burning tool is Copper. The Resistor is Enamel coated over Copper wire wound around a ceramic Form that it'self conducts heat inward to the open space of the "tube". but I have seen them scorch the inside of a Sheetrock wall, or leave a brown mark against a wood joist, so ya betcha, there is some real heat being generated. At power output levels under 100 watts, no fires are eminent, but you also don't want to stand there and hold it tightly in your hand either.


I hate the things, but sometimes, they are the only sensible solution. Many Receivers and AMP act goofy, or just plain fail when they drive different loads to each output when both outputs share the same Power supply.

But once again, I speak from having used every last "practical" watt available in many of the Amps in my systems. These days, Amps that can drive 2 ohms loads don't cost nearly as much, so I usually parallel down.

The best solution? At the price all ya'all are getting Pros and Non-Pro Auras for, ya all should just ante up and get enough to create equal impendence channels. One thing fer sur. You'll never be dissapointed by having extra Shakers putting energy to a surface. Instead, the extra devices mean that everyone of them have to work just that much less to provide the emphtic effect you desire.

A classic case where More is bedder!

MadPoet: thanks for the quick reply. I went to the "Express" page and noticed that the limit was 25w p/shaker. Should I go with the pro which is a little more wattage.. (50w RMS/75w Max) since the old receiver is rated 80w RMS per Ch.?

The pro vs. regular is discussed several times in this thread (including over the last 2 pages I believe). You're never going to be driving these things at full wattage anyway or you would break your spine ;).

...............anybody know a good Orthepedic Surgeon?

Chiropractor?



KaTHUMP!

My spine went South long ago!

I haven't read this entire thread, so if I am asking already answered questions, please forgive me. I'm in the process of building the theater. I'm not sure if I want shakers or not but want to have the wiring in place if I decide to go the shaker route. I will have Berkline 088's in the front row, two recliners and a love seat, for four seating positions, and a couch in the back row that seats 3 - 4 people. So, how many shakers would I need and where would they go? I assume I would need 8, four each for the front and back. Do I really need 4 for the couch? What wiring from the amp should I run, does it depend on the number of shakers or is it just one positive and one negative for all? Assuming a separate amp is needed, how do you get the source to that amp if it is already going to another amp to power the sub? I know, dumb question. Thanks for any advice.

Joe, to power the shaker amp you need to split the LFE or sub out with a RCA "Y" splitter.As for wiring,it does depend on how you're doing it.Is it a stereo amp or mono amp..It all matters..As for the number required,I like the formula of 1 per seat.For ME this enough.If couch is overly large,then perhaps an extra one is called for..The thing to keep in mind is that it doesn't taake alot of power at all to get things moving!My couch has 3 cushions but could sit 3-5,tight I know on the 5 part..It's about 94" wide if I recall correctly,but 3 shakers can overpower that couch EASILY!!Hope this helps some..

brickie

I am adding a few Shakers to my Couches, total will be eight Shakers now.
Now, i did read the entire thread, but cannot find a graph that will show me how to hook these up to a single Subwoofer-Amp with 250 watt /4 ohms.
Or, should i use 10 Shakers?

I am using This Amp (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-793)
Help, please...
;)

Brickie,
Thanks for the response. Will splitting the signal have an adverse affect on the sound quality of the bass? As far as amp, I don't have one yet but the one that Deja-vue references looks as good as any and is resonable as far as cost. If we assumed that amp, could you then tell me the necessary wiring? Thanks.

Spitting a few times off the sub out is fine.

8 shakers would be 2 sets of 4 in series,then wire them parallel to that amp.In each series set you get 16 ohms,then when you go parallel you will present an 8 ohm load to the amp.Nice safe load and more power than is needed to get things rocking! Plus all shakers get even watts.

For 10, not sure to get even watts all around.will see if I can figure that one out.

brickie

Joe, the Amp really is fantastic...
About my question, will this drawing really work with this Amp?

Deja-vue,

Yes, that drawing will work just fine. You will end up with an 8 ohm load presented to your amplifier. each set of two shakers in series = 8 ohms. Two paralleled sets of two shakers in series = 4 ohms, and two series/parallel groups in series equals 8 ohms.

Depending on your physical layout, an alternative wiring layout is as brickie suggested,

4 shakers in series (4+4+4+4 ohms=16 ohms total), connected in parallel with a second set of 4 in series (4+4+4+4 ohms=16 ohms total) would also result in a 8 ohm load to the amplifier.

Oh yes, for 10 shakers and a single channel amplifier there are four ways to connect them to get equal shaking.

All in parallel = 0.4 ohms load to the amplifier and will probably cause most amplifiers to either self-destruct, shut-down (if it has short-circuit protection) or melt (although I guess that is a form of self destruction) If you do attempt this, check your fire insurance policy to make sure it has not lapsed and keep the fire-extinguisher handy, just in case its demise is dramatic.

All in series = 40 ohms load to the amplifier, nothing will harm the amplifier, but it will deliver nowhere near its rated power (amplifier rated at 250 watts into 4 ohms might deliver 25 watts into 40 ohms), things will shake, but not very hard.

Two sets of 5 shakers in series (each set=4+4+4+4+4=20 ohm total), both sets connected in parallel (20 ohms in parallel with 20 ohms=10 ohms) to the output of the amplifier.

Now, the amplifier will deliver slightly less power into a 10 ohm load than it can into an 8 ohm load, but it will handle it fine and everything will shake equally. THIS IS ONE WAY I WOULD DO IT.

Another way to connect 10 would be to wire 5 sets of 2 paralleled shakers in series.

In other words, parallel 2 shakers. Do the same with a second set of 2 shakers, and a third set, and fourth set, and fifth set. Two 4 ohm shakers in parallel = 2 ohms. five 2 ohm sets in series again gives you 10 ohms and a decent load for your amplifier. THIS IS THE OTHER WAY I WOULD DO IT.

Have fun.

Joe L.

J.L.
(copied and pasted your post into a word-doc and saved)

Many thanks for your explanation!
I will go ahead and follow your advice.
Your advice is, as always, highly appreciated.
Same as Brickie's post, of course.
I might post pictures later next week of the finished product.
I even consider adding a second Amp of the same model to drive two sets of five...we'll see how things work out.
Good weekend to all!
:)

Was hoping JL would chime in!Deja, that amp will be MORE than enough..try it first and see what you think.

brickie

Originally posted by Deja-vue

I even consider adding a second Amp of the same model to drive two sets of five...we'll see how things work out.
Good weekend to all!
:)

Although a second amplifier sounds like it might help, it is likely to help very little if you intend to hook 5 shakers to each of the two amplifiers.

One of the two ways to hook 5 shakers to an amplifier and get equal shaking is all in parallel (total resistance= 0.8 ohms) again a load too low for almost all amplifiers, and likely to cause the amplifier to shut-down or self-destruct. I do not recommend this method.

The only other way to connect 5 shakers and have them all shake the same amount is all in series, a total of 20 ohms. The amplifier rated at 180 watts into 8 ohms would probably output about 70 watts into 20 ohms. Split between 5 shakers, each could get 14 watts.

A single amplifier rated at 180 watts into 8 ohms would probably output somewhere near 140 watts into 10 ohms. Split equally between 10 shakers, each would get 14 watts. See... same amount of wattage, same shaking, and now you have two level controls to deal with.

I'd use one amplifier. If you need more shaking, add a second set of 10 shakers in parallel with the first. Two 10 ohm sets in parallel would give you a 5 ohm load and would result in almost double the power out from your amplifier. But... as brickie said... your not likely to need this amount of shaking. Not unless you want blurry vision and rattled bones.

Joe L.

Brickie, Joe L.,
Great responses, thanks. You guys rock (pun intended):) Can't wait for the theater to be finished so I can start rocking with ya!

What a great post - after plenty of reading I think I know how I'll wire my recently ordered 6 Bass Shakers (25W) to the PE 120W mono subwoofer amp. My question is a more basic - how to pre-wire in anticipation of using these.

I'm getting to the end of my HT buildout, unfortunately, I didn't think ahead about adding shakers, I just decided this past week after some great input from AVSers. All my speaker cable is in conduit (7.1) behind double drywall, so running conduit now isn't going to happen. However I am installing GOM on the walls, that starts this week. So what I'll do run speaker wire from the equipment rack to the chair row & cover that with Linacoustics/GOM. It will be hidden so no problems.

I guess my question has to do with the fact since I have no chairs yet and can access the floor, how/where should I terminate wire? I will have 2 rows of 3 and I'm not exactly sure where they will be, but I'm pretty sure of their approximate location. I'm thinking of a couple of different options:

1. have the speaker cable from the amp terminate in a wall plate on my side wall. Then when I get the chairs (which will most likely be pretty tight to the side wall, get a jack to finish the wiring. I guess I would run the wire under the chairs and hide any exposed wiring with some sort of cover.

2. Another option is I am in the middle of installing Dricore on the floors and I could run wire under it. For those not familar with it, Dricore is about 1" high, it has polyethylene cleats on the bottom with OSB on top http://www.dricore.com/en/einstallation.htm). So there is a gap between the cleats for air flow, speaker wire could go there. So in this case I could run speaker wire from the amp, through the floor to appoximately where the chairs would be & have the wire poke up through the Dricore. I think I could leave excess wire in the floor and when it came time to install, I could pull it up through the floor. Only problem with this is I'd have to poke a hole through the carpet as well, so maybe the first approach would be better.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!
Bob

That Dri-Core flooring looks great. Something to think about in the future, although I’m sure my basement floor would need serious leveling.

I wouldn't necessarily bother running wires between the cleats of the floor panels, and would be afraid that the excess left under the floor would get wound around the cleats and not feed through adequately once your chairs are in.

I would favor a simpler approach. Run the wires to a jack panel, or better yet along the baseboard (or in the ¼ gap along the side of your floor panels) to where the chairs will be, then fish the wire under your carpet and feed it through a small hole right under the chairs. Yes it’s a small hole in the carpet, but no one will ever see it and no one will trip over the wires…

Hi guys,
My prepro has two sub outs can i use one for shakers instead of a y connection from my single
sub?
thanks
Jossix

Ok, J.L., please excuse my Photoshop-scribble, i scetched it up on how i'm going to do it...
Is there anything wrong with this setup?
Please let me know.
:)

http://www.itprofessionals.tv/Couchnew.jpg

Deja-vue,

Your photoshop illustration is perfect and very clear.

Looks like two series strings of 4 will work well with your physical layout.

Happy shaking. Let us know how it feels once everything is in place.

Joe L.

hmmm, i finished the project, double-checked everything, there is still not enough shaking produced...
i don't see much improvement between 6 and 8 shakers.
I will run some tests tonight and keep you guys posted.
Thanks!
:)

Originally posted by Deja-vue
hmmm, i finished the project, double-checked everything, there is still not enough shaking produced...
i don't see much improvement between 6 and 8 shakers.
I will run some tests tonight and keep you guys posted.
Thanks!
:)

How did you mount them? What type of lumber did you use? I've noticed that to get the most bang for the buck you want to ensure that the shakers transfer all of their "shake" through your mount, and it transfer the "shake" to your furniture at as many points as possible.

I drive 3 in series on a left channel and 3 in series on the right channel and with volume on the amp at about 50% the shake is way too much.

How did you mount them?

Click in my Signature and scroll down from there, it shows some pictures how i mounted them.
Looks a bit overkill, i must admit, but i just don't ever want to do it again.
Everything is double-bolted and locked, liquid-nail and carriage-bolts were used, including locking nuts.
:cool:

Deja-vue,

Your Aura Pros look to be snugged down too tightly. This factor alone can suppress as much as 75 % of the Shaker's potential.

The amount of space between the Tactile's casing and the surface should be at least 1/32". That dosen't sound like much, but if you cannot run you fingernail around the Tactile and feel it "lipping underneath" the edge, then it's too tight.

When I'm mounting the things, I use the clutch on my Ryobi, set to about "6". Using 1" coarse threaded screws, I run the first in only to the point the opposite corner of the casing starts to lift. I then fasten that corner down to level, and each of the other two as well.

All this time, the clutch hasn't kicked in. I now go to each corner and give it a shot until the clutch engages and then "hammers" for about a full second.

Unless you putting the Auras on a soft pine board, you'll wind up with the unit resting 'just firmly snugged' onto the board.

Too loose, and it will VIBBBBBBBRRRATTTTTE, but too tight and you get anemic results.

Your impressive hardware is certainly not going to let the Auras get up and walk away, but unless my depth perception has been fooled, the photos on your Web site show the AURAs in contact with the board's surface, or "extremely" close.

If this indeed is your situation, you have a quick fix indeed. Just "Tune" each in by loosening those bolts equally.

Thanks for the quick reply, MississippiMan.

I understood the firmer the install the better the vibation is transfered to the Couch's frame. I could be mistaken. Yes, i bolted them down with a Ratched until the Heads of the Carriage-bolts sunk into the wood.
Really tight.
Perhaps i will loosen them up a bit and use some sort of Teflon-washers or hard-rubber washers...i want things shaking but not rattling, if you catch my drift.
I'll give it definately a try tomorrow.

;)

I cannot see how deformed the wood is around the tabs, but if you just loosen the bolts no more than 1/4 turn you should be there.

Rubber or Teflon spaces are no good. They will just make it harder to get a precise level at each corner, as well as absorb resonance. not a lot, but any that goes away doesn't hit you hienie.

This is where I get a bit pretentious. :p ;)

I've installed well over, well God only knows how many of both varieties.
I've fired Auras through 1 - 1/2" thick Subfloors with no problem. I've made mistakes early on that I do not repeat. Locking 4 or 8 into a Subfloor only to find they can only tickle, not shake is...., well, you know what it is, don't you? Sort of.

"Take it from me." No matter what you've heard before. Get the right amount of "snug" and you'll be trying to turn 'em down, not wishing for more ooomph.

Your couch's available room underneath gives you one option many would die for.

You might want to add at least 4 "Stud-like" braces to that board as well. One for each end, and one centered between the Tactile and the edge. Box out the "enclosure" and energy lost to the open edge will be contained and amplified. Tie that enclosre in even better than you have. The difference will amaze you!

Really!

You might want to add at least 4 "Stud-like" braces to that board as well. One for each end, and one centered between the Tactile and the edge. Box out the "enclosure" and energy lost to the open edge will be contained and amplified. Tie that enclosre in even better than you have. The difference will amaze you!

Details, please...i will rip it apart again tomorrow, my Friends.

Use this picture as an Example on how you would install the BRACES


http://www.itprofessionals.tv/Shakers/DSCN6315.jpg

Use paint or photoshop to "add" the extra braces.
E-mail me direct if you want to:

Frank@ITProfessionals.tv

Thanks!
;)

Perhaps you are talking about something like this:

The blue lines representing some 1X1 Hardwood...

http://www.itprofessionals.tv/shaker-reinforced.jpg

let me know.
;)

I just ordered 4 pairs of the 25W 4 ohms shakers.

My old Prologic reciever is 100w per channel and has A + B connections.

On the back it says 8~16 ohms.. I don't really know if this means that it's 8 ohms per channel or if it changes to 16 in mono or what....

I have been playing around with the equation but really can't figure it out..

Could someone with better logic and math skills than I help me out?

cmfly,

I just went through this on the other thread..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5418835&highlight=Bud#post5418835

You might want to read my post and the replies for background info. I would think the switch references total ohms per channel. My old Kenwood had a similar switch (picture in thread). You should be able to connect two in series per channel on speaker A like Doyle describes in the reply to me. I have 8 shakers, so I plan on doing two per channel on A and two per channel on B.

Hope this helps.

Bud

"Take it from me." No matter what you've heard before. Get the right amount of "snug" and you'll be trying to turn 'em down, not wishing for more ooomph.

You were right, Buddy!
I ripped the entire couch apart again and took about a half turn off each Bolt, that made them come alive. Unbelievable. There were indeed too tight.
:eek:
I also followed your Advice "boxing them in", i used some 1X1 1/2 inch Hardwood and enforced the connection to the couch-frame a bit.
It was another 3 to 4 hours of work, but well worth it.
Thanks to MississippiMan and J.L.

:)
One happy Camper here now.

Can I ask what boxing them does? Deja, was it indeed as you diagrammed above?

Originally posted by cmfly
I just ordered 4 pairs of the 25W 4 ohms shakers.

My old Prologic reciever is 100w per channel and has A + B connections.

The First thing that tells you something important is that the Receiver can only handle a 8 Ohm load at the lowest. Obviously it cannot handle 4 ohm loads, so that means that if you engage "Speaker B" with drivers only on "Speaker A", you sound will go away. This is because the A & B Outputs combine in a "Series" when both are engaged. If one is 'vacant' then there can be no circuit when bith are engaged.

The sure test/ Push the Speaker B button in. No sound? Your Receiver's outputs are in a series.



On the back it says 8~16 ohms.. I don't really know if this means that it's 8 ohms per channel or if it changes to 16 in mono or what....

See Above. :D


I have been playing around with the equation but really can't figure it out..

Could someone with better logic and math skills than I help me out?

I don't know about my Math or Logic skills can rate any plaudits, but for you application, you'll have to series 4 Shakers (16 ohms) on each channel.

Pretty simple, wasn't it?

Originally posted by madpoet
Can I ask what boxing them does? Deja, was it indeed as you diagrammed above?

Resonant energy that encounters a defining edge without mass will often cause what is known as "Howling" . The additional "stiffness" afforded by the bracing allows for a more effective transfer of the resonant energy into the surrounding solids (Chair Frame).

My suggestions about loosening the Tactile's screws a tiny bit was certainly going to increase the amount of active resonance, (...and it did! Glad to hear it, Deja-vue !) so the mounting board would need to be reinforced to accomodate the increase.

Cmfly,

another thing. Should your Receiver continue to play if an empty "B" output is engaged, then that will mean that the Receiver's outputs are wired in Parallel.

If that is so, your in better shape. You can then parallel two shakers (2 ohms) then series two (2) pair together (4 Ohms) This will be a more efficent circuit, and will assure you of both more power from the Receiver being delivered to the Shaker circuit, as well as increase your power handling by 100% to 50 watts per channel.
(...in any series, the circuit is only as strong as the power handling of any one device or combination of devices that are paralled together within the series circuit....that is unless the paralled devices vary in thier impeadences...then, the device that has the lowest load will draw the most power with that combo. BUT, if a sreies contains variable impeadences, then the "HIGHEST" impeadence load will draw proportionatly MORE power. This can be a very bad thing, so don't EVER go there. If you still confused, ***...I would be!!!***, then post again.)

Can I ask what boxing them does? Deja, was it indeed as you diagrammed above?

Yes, that's how i did it.
I couldn't believe the difference!
A Friend of mine and me watched Electra last night, choosing the DTS-Track, and there is some scary Scenes in that movie, coupled with some cool sound-effects.
My Friend jumped right out of the couch a couple of times, it was amazing.
:D

So let me ask a question here. Is it better/more efficient to run four shakers serially (4 ohm) on each channel or to put two in series on each L/R channel for speaker A and two pair on each L/R for speaker B. Or does it matter?

Bud

Bud,

As far as I know when A+B are in use at the same time in a receiver, the loads connected to A+B are in parallel. In other words if you had an 8 Ohm load connected to A, and an 8 Ohm load connected to B, if you ran A+B at the same time you would have a 4 Ohm load presented to the receiver. So for your situation, running 4 per channel in a parallel/series (4 Ohm load) in just A is the exact same as running 2 in A and 2 in B. The only difference would be that with the A and B hookup, you could turn off half the shakers if you wanted to, but would lose the option to hook up a second pair of speakers that you could use in another room whenever the shakers weren't being used.

If for some reason your receiver has a separate power supply for A and B, there will be a difference. In going from a 8 Ohm load to a 4 Ohm load there is usually a power increase of about 45%. My receiver for example provides 70 Watts at 8 Ohms, and 100 Watts at 4 Ohms. For the 4 Ohm load, you would be getting a current of 5 Amps, but this would be divided by 2 as you have your shakers in a parallel/series connection, so 2.5 amps per pair.

For the 8 Ohm load, you would be getting approximately 2.96 amps per pair.

I'm having some problems with my shaker setup and i'm hoping someone can help me here. Currently I have one pair installed in the bottom of my futon, and a pair installed in the back. The pair on the bottom is much more noticeable, probably due to my increased weight on them, so I would like to balance the output to each pair until it feels equal. I'm currently running them all in a parallel/series combination powered by a subwoofer plate amp, but I cannot adjust the power output to each pair in this way. I have an old stereo receiver that I could use to run each pair in series in the L/R channels, and then use the balance adjustment to adjust the power output...however the problem with this is that I lose the variable crossover that my subwoofer amp has.

I'd also like to be able to adjust the input gain before it reaches the shaker amp, as I often use the shakers late at night. The shakers have enough power when the volume is up loud on my main receiver, but when the volume is low the shakers are low...i'd like to be able to run the shakers "loud", when the music is quiet. Simply turning up the volume on the shaker amp isn't enough, the input signal is just too low.

I had been planning on buying Paradigm's X-30 crossover, but I found out this morning that it does not have line gain, only line attenuation...so back to the drawing board. I think I could also use pro audio crossover's, such as the Behringer Super X Pro CX2310 (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-664)

I'd rather not use pro audio gear if I don't have to though...the Behringer uses XLR inputs and outputs...if anyone is still with me after reading all that, is there any home audio solution that could help me with my problems? Basically I need something that lets me adjust the input gain, and also has a variable crossover. A phase adjustment would be a bonus. Does anyone know of such a device?

Kevin

Thanks MississippiMan, that sounds pretty easy.. Just wasn't sure with the 8~16 and there not being a switch to select either.. I wasn't sure if it was a range or a general guideline or what.. This whole ohm thing is a pretty new concept to me.

Thanks to you and bud, Helped alot.. Now I just wish customs would clear my order faster.

Chris

Originally posted by MississippiMan
The First thing that tells you something important is that the Receiver can only handle a 8 Ohm load at the lowest. Obviously it cannot handle 4 ohm loads, so that means that if you engage "Speaker B" with drivers only on "Speaker A", you sound will go away. This is because the A & B Outputs combine in a "Series" when both are engaged. If one is 'vacant' then there can be no circuit when bith are engaged.

The sure test/ Push the Speaker B button in. No sound? Your Receiver's outputs are in a series.




See Above. :D



I don't know about my Math or Logic skills can rate any plaudits, but for you application, you'll have to series 4 Shakers (16 ohms) on each channel.

Pretty simple, wasn't it?

Many thanks to Bob_vdi, and the others who've posted such great information here.

Here's my situation:

I'll soon have 5 Aura PRO AST-2B-4 Bass Shakers to wire up with my current set up. There will be 3 units on one large sofa, and two on a loveseat. Mounting is not an issue for me.

I have an unused Sony receiver (came with Sony HT-DDW760 HTiB system, don't have the model# handy)
OR
a Sunfire 550w Subwoofer amp that come with an Advent AV550s sub I own.

My questions:

Which power solution would work best for the Shakers, and how do I go about wiring these units using the preferable amp?

I realize I'm asking a huge favor here, but hoping some of you guys enjoy a challenge like this!!!!

Thanks in advance!

Marty

Use the Sony, and ditch that ol' stinkin' Sunfire.

Tell ya what...., I'll take it.

Reality Check.

Wire 3 Auras in series (12 Ohms) and the other 2 in series as well. (8 ohms)
Use both channels of the Sony via a "Y" cord setup.

Hang on to that Sunfire. Someday, maybe we can get to shakin' de Floor!

Wire 3 Auras in series (12 Ohms) and the other 2 in series as well. (8 ohms)


MississippiMan,

Thank you, my friend. So i split the LFE from my current AVR (Yamaha HTR-5660), sending one to my dedicated Sub, and the second to the Sony AVR, is that correct?

To which input on the Sony should I route the signal? If logic serves, I could use any input, as I'm going to use the Sony as a Stereo out, correct?

Forgive my lack of expertise, but is there a location to which you could point me on how to wire in series? And am I wrong in seeing that I'm better off having a 6th shaker, as opposed to 5 (an odd number)?


Thanks!!!

marty

Lazyhaze,

Thanks for the info. I realize I would loose connecting a second pair, but could turn off one side. Its actually an old Kenwood amp thats dedicated for the shakers I had laying around. Good info. Thanks!

Bud

Originally posted by MartyTeboe
MississippiMan,

Thank you, my friend. So i split the LFE from my current AVR (Yamaha HTR-5660), sending one to my dedicated Sub, and the second to the Sony AVR, is that correct?

Yes. That configuration will require two "y" cords, one off the 5660, it's signal paths going to the DS, the other toward the Sony, the the addition of another to split into the "Tape" or Aux. inputs.


To which input on the Sony should I route the signal? If logic serves, I could use any input, as I'm going to use the Sony as a Stereo out, correct?

See above :D


Forgive my lack of expertise, but is there a location to which you could point me on how to wire in series? And am I wrong in seeing that I'm better off having a 6th shaker, as opposed to 5 (an odd number)?

Thanks!!!

marty

Actually, keeping your Tactiles in numbers that can easily be divided by x2 is the very best. In your case however, 3 per channel is best so you can avoid getting that Ohm load up into the "16" level, a Ohm load that will restict your power output, causing you to have to increase the Volume setting even higher. This can result in increased distortion from regular Amp/Receivers because LFE effects pack such transient punch. Many advocate series circuts here, but primarily because the most common amps used are "oldsters" that cannot carry ohm loads below 8 ohms. Tactiles, being 4 ohms, don't lend themselves well toward being paralled under such circumstances.

I said this before...., any circuit that contains a series only has a power rating equivilent to a single device on the series. Yet having multibles in series still ups the power required to make the entire circut perform. 4 Tactiles rated a 25 watts each will still need a full 100 watts to reach the full output potential 4 offer, but that power level will quickly toast the circuit.

2 or 4 Tactiles in parallel will persent 2 or 1 ohms respectively, but the power is always distributed equally to each device on the circuit.

I regularly parallel 4 tactiles down to 1 ohm, then series another like circuit together to acheive 2 ohms. Then I drive that circuit with a beefy amp. Paralleling 2 Tactiles into a 2 ohm load, then series-ing two circuits up to a 4 ohm load is probably the very best 'normal' route to take. But darn it, you "Chair' guys seldom even have Amps / Receivers that will handle a 4 ohm load.

Hence, all this "series-ing".

Oh well. Did you say you wanted a diagram?

Ok, if I hafta. ;)

(NOTE: The bottom diagram reflects the use of 8 Ohm Audio Transducers. You can easily substitute the correct number of devices being used, insert a 4 ohm value in the place of the 8 ohm figures and just re-work the math. ) (....can't you? :p)

Oh yeah, ...and you can add another tactile into the Series circuit on top and just multiply the Ohm load on up.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/MississippiMan/Business%20Photos%20to%20send/ParallelSeriesDiagram.jpg

MMan, I have to say you have some of the most meaningful, entertaining posts on this forum. On to my question...

Does anybody have an extra 50Hz RCA FMOD crossover they want to get rid of? I'm guessing it's common given that PE sells them in pairs...

Just got my shakers the other day and they are sweet.. It took a while to find a good place to mount them on my hida bed but once that was figured out it was all smooth sailing from there.. Well except for having to re-upholster the couch sides...

Thanks Bud and MississippiMan for your help and insight in how to wire them, they work great and nothing blew up yet.. though when something does in a movie it sure feels like something did!!

Last night I was at a friends watching a movie and whenever there was deep base it was pretty disappointing not feeling it.

The $27/pair Aura's were more than enough 4 on the hidabed and 1 on each piece of my other sectional couch.. So much fun!!

Thanks again!!

CMfly

And after the movie you can crank the bass up and have a little fun with your significient other when you spread the hidabed out! ;)

Originally posted by Huskerfan
And after the movie you can crank the bass up and have a little fun with your significient other when you spread the hidabed out! ;)

I just have to find a good Barry White SACD or DVD-A..

Getting off topic aren't we..LOL! Actually some Luther Vandross goes a long way too.

brickie

Hi guys,

First of all, to miltimj.... I have an extra fmod 50, if you're still in need. Contact me at martyteboe@yahoo.com, and we'll work it out.

Now for my questions, if you please.

I hooked up my 4 Aura Pros in series to a Sony amp set for 2 ch. When I first installed the shakers, I drilled them directly onto the vertical plywood frames, running front-to-back, near the very bottom. These framing pieces bear most of the weight of the sofas. The results were less than spectacular, but I could feel the effect.
I had them that way for a day, then decided to try one sofa a different way. On one sofa, I removed the shakers and firmly zip-tied them to the zigzag-type wire springs directly beneath the coushins. The effect was a profound improvement, and one I can live with. It's adequate. However, given what I've read here, I feel I must be doing something wrong. I thought that I'd get an effect that I'd have a bit more control over. As it is, I'm cranked all the way up, with zero head room.

Was my first set up just done poorly? Maybe too tightly fastened? Wrong part of the sofa? Or maybe I should make some sort of brace-to-brace type of bridge, like I see so much of here?

I guess my basic question is one for you engineers.... Does the movement generated by the shakers transfer better when connected to a hard surface, or one like the setup I've described (assuming you can decipher my meaning)?


As always, I appreciate any help you guys can offer.

Interesting...You should most definitely have a better effect on the wood I believe.I would ask is the amp adequate but it doesn't take alot to get these going.I'd check my wiring.You shouldn't have to crank them to get a good effect..

brickie

Interesting...You should most definitely have a better effect on the wood I believe.I would ask is the amp adequate but it doesn't take alot to get these going.I'd check my wiring.You shouldn't have to crank them to get a good effect..



Hey Brickie,

That is exactly what I first thought. The amp is a Sony STR-K750P (or, that black one that comes with the Sony HTiB that is sold everywhere, even Toys R Us) rated at "5 x 100w". I know that on these low end Sonys, the true rating would probably be around 60w per channel, but even that should give me enough juice, right?

I'm not expecting a simulated earthquake from these shakers, either. I'm familiar with other applications (video arcade, theme park rides, etc) and have a pretty good idea of how these should feel.

I have to think that it's something in the way I had them first mounted. What I'm going to do is this, and please do tell me if you've got a better idea....

Mount the shakers on a 12x12 piece of 3/4 plywood. Secure that piece of plywood to two 2x4's, which in turn would be fastened to the braces within the sofa itself.

Do you think that'd be better, or should I just stick with what I've got? It seems to me that adding wood to the whole set up would only deaden the effect I had in the first set up. I'm just thinking here, but wouldn't it be best to secure the shakers to a nice piece of iron, which would then be fastened to the couch frame?

Again, I'm pleased with the setup as it is. I'm just surprised that I don't have a little bit of play here.

marty

Hey Marty,

I've got my four standard auras connected to a very old Pioneer 2 x 90W and they shake plenty hard at about 60% power. I have them mounted directly to the wood frame... two to the middle frame (one high, one low), and one each on the ends (high). My guess is there's some kind of buffer between the wood frame of your couch and the actual cushions. My couch is an all in one (no cushions).

The pros require more power so that may be an issue, but you'd think they'd also output equal or better than the standards given the same power.

I agree with your assessment that more wood will deaden the sound, but if there's no part of the frame directly contacting the cushions, you may need to build something similar to what others here have.

PS - You have an email

Hmm maybe check your wire's... I got the cheap ones and they shake pretty good.. I just have a cheap jvc 100w/channel and I can crank it full and dang those puppies shake.. I usually only need it around 30 - 40% volume though to get a good kick..

I have them right on the frame of the couch.. I don't know about adding more wood since you have it already on the frame... Maybe loosen them or make sure they are seated fully on wood.

All I used was a piece of plywood to give a nice flat mounting surface and used drywall screws to fasten it.. It's lasted 2 movies rumbling pretty hard so far.. maybe one day it will break those weak screws but for now the nice tight fit does the job.

I agree with your assessment that more wood will deaden the sound, but if there's no part of the frame directly contacting the cushions, you may need to build something similar to what others here have.


I checked, rechecked, double rechecked, and checked again the wiring. It's sound as a pound.

The shakers are shakin', but the movement wasn't being transferred to the seats they way I had them mounted at first.

I don't really know how to describe this, but it looks as though the only contact the cushion makes with the frame is at the topmost part under the armrests, under the knees, and at the top of the backs. Maybe that's standard, but it looks like the seats themselves are sort of "suspended".
It's a well-made sofa set, but not terribly high-end. Maybe I'll try and post some pics, if you guys would be so kind to help out. My camera is only 2.0MP, though, so they won't be the greatest resolution.

Maybe I just need more shakers, and more power...

Seriously, it could be this amp. I know it's a piece of crap, really, and that is probably the real issue.

I'm going to try the first remedy I posted, i.e., a wood "bridge" to which the shakers will be mounted. I still think some type of metal brace or bracket would be better, though. I'll let you know how that works.

marty

Marty, it's almost certainly the actual transfer of kinetic energy from the shakers to the cushions... you should mount a board as you're talking about, underneath the cushions.

A great example is Deja-Vue's, and he has some pictures of his HT... scroll to the bottom half for how he mounted the shakers in his sectional couch.

http://www.itprofessionals.tv/system.htm

Marty, it's almost certainly the actual transfer of kinetic energy from the shakers to the cushions... you should mount a board as you're talking about, underneath the cushions.



Yeah, Tim....I'm certain of it, now. Looking at those photos, and the others just like it, I have to assume this is the case. So I've got a little work to do.

Thanks bud.


Marty

Ive got an old yamaha v-1105 85 watts per chanel receiver can i power 8 aura pro's with it ? how would i wire it?
Thanks in advance.
T-maxx

Marty, it's almost certainly the actual transfer of kinetic energy from the shakers to the cushions... you should mount a board as you're talking about, underneath the cushions.




Just a final follow up....

I made the wooden braces out of poplar, trying to copy Dejavu's design as closely as possible. Liquid Nails and all. I got fantastic fit in the spaces underneath my sofas. So close I had to use a hammer to get a couple to fit in the right places.

I secured the Auras to the braces, wired them up, popped in Master and Commander, and......severe disappointment. I'm thinking to myself (and swearing out loud) "What am I doing wrong????" It worked better attached to the springs!

I turned the loveseat over, one last time. I loosened up the screws on the Auras, and......now I get it. They were far to tight. The comparison is pretty amazing, really. Attached to the springs, I got a little wiggling sensation under my butt. Now, done properly, the whole sofa and loveseat rock with the LFE. In concert with the sub, it's a pretty immersive sensory experience.

The trick, as I see it, is to loosen the screws attaching the shakers to the wood just to the poing to where the slightest bit more the the left and they'd be moveable. It's a pretty precise adjustment, really.

Thank to everyone who helped me out.

Rock on,

Marty

That's great to hear, Marty! Very cool... will be even better (more realistic) when we install the FMODs...

T-Maxx, your best option is probably to hook up 4 to each stereo channel, as two pair of series speakers then hook them in parallel.

So:
Each channel: two in series + two in series (hooked in parallel)

Your old receiver should be able to handle it, but you make need to crank it up quite a bit for eight of them. I hope you have quite a few pieces of furniture to hook them up to, because that is a lot of shakin'!

Originally posted by miltimj
will be even better (more realistic) when we install the FMODs...


Which FMODs do you recommend?

Skip

Most have gone with 50Hz the low pass FMOD to focus the shakers on almost all "sound effect" LFE instead of sound track music, etc, that may be apparent around 70-80Hz.

To be clear, I haven't actually intalled one, but I've set my receiver to crossover at 60Hz which was a signficant improvement (less artificial) over 80Hz. The FMODs come in 50Hz & 70Hz (among others). My first paragraph above are based on many AVSers' thoughts and experiences, mostly found in this thread.

I for one roll off everything above 80 Hz, and quite often dampen everything above 50 Hz when using DTS program material.

I've got 8 berkline 090's on order, on the back row I want to try 4 under the riser and on the front 1 per chair.

Thanks for the help!

Just an FYI. YMMV. I have six Lane Hollywood recliners, three on a riser in the back and three on the floor. I put a shaker under each chair in the riser and a shaker IN each recliner on the floor. For my money, the shakers in the chairs are much more satisfying than the ones in the risers. I know that MM says different and it may be because he is a much more experienced installer, but I wish all mine were in the bottoms of the recliners.

I'll try it both ways, Is your riser suspended on rubber isolators

Originally posted by miltimj
Most have gone with 50Hz the low pass FMOD to focus the shakers on almost all "sound effect" LFE instead of sound track music, etc, that may be apparent around 70-80Hz.

To be clear, I haven't actually intalled one, but I've set my receiver to crossover at 60Hz which was a signficant improvement (less artificial) over 80Hz. The FMODs come in 50Hz & 70Hz (among others). My first paragraph above are based on many AVSers' thoughts and experiences, mostly found in this thread.

I keep mine at 50Hz and find it much better than 80Hz.

O.k. I must be doing the math wrong but 2 4ohm shakers in series will give you 8 ohms. 2 8 ohm loads in parallel will take the load back to 4 ohms. Won't this be to much for the yamaha?

Originally posted by Mntneer
I keep mine at 50Hz and find it much better than 80Hz.

Mntneer or anyone...

Forgive my "ignoramace" on FMODs.

Are you using something like this ? The descriptions are the same, I would assume I would want the first below if I had no electronic capability built into the receiver.

FMOD CROSSOVER PAIR 50 Hz LOW PASS (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=266-250)

or this:

FMOD CROSSOVER PAIR 50 Hz HIGH PASS (http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?DID=7&PartNumber=266-270)

or going the electronic route like miltimj?

Thanks,

Bud

Bud, the two links you posted are exact opposites.. you want the low pass so the only frequencies you receive are below that point (though it's not a hard cutoff, but heavily sloping).

The problem with using your receiver is if you have a sub in addition to the shakers (highly recommended by the way), you can't send a different signal from one to the other... it'd be one thing if the sub was supposed to be lower than the shakers because then you could use the crossover on the sub, but unfortunately it's the opposite.

So... I will use the receiver's processor/built-in crossover to effectively be an 80Hz low pass, split to my shaker amp (receiver) and sub, and use an FMOD to further limit the frequencies reproduced by the shakers.

Shep, good point about the impedance... I guess it really depends on the receiver, but there's no easy way to it other than have a 16 amp load or have them be unbalanced. I guess if they were standard auras you could put the groups of four in series for an 8 ohm load (or just two sets of four-in-series would be easier) into one channel, but that's going to be too much power requirement for 8 pros! An option would be finding a cheap mono amp, or bridging a 2-channel amp and using that. If I just had an old receiver laying around like T-Maxx I'd see if it could handle the 4 ohms... :)

Tim,

Glad my math is correct on that one as currently I'm using 2 buttkickers and a buttkicker amp on my riser but for fun I was going to pull out 10 aura shakers I yanked from interactor vests and use them on my bottom row sectional that is not on the riser. I couldn't for the life of me figure out a easy way to use 8 to get 2x8ohms for an older receiver (that I know won't do 4ohms). I wonder if it would work if I did a 4 with a 4 ohm load (as you mentioned) and then added one more in series to give me a 8 ohm load, and then the same for the other side. Any thoughts?

You'll have most of the power going to two of the ten shakers in that case, though... I would stick with putting two 16 ohm sets on it if it can't handle 4 ohms, and see how that works... worst case is it just won't shake as much as you'll have to crank the volume. Either drop it to 4 total or go to something like 12 so you can get 6 ohms on each channel.

Joe L. makes some good points about this earlier in this thread, e.g. post 139.

Is your riser suspended on rubber isolators
No, it is sitting on nice thick berber carpet.

Is your riser suspended on rubber isolators?

This is something that I've wondered about...

It makes sense to me that I'd be maximizing the effect of the shakers by putting the sofas on some type of rubber risers, rather than have them resting on the carpet. Is that true?

(edit)
I guess I should clarify. I'm thinking about some sort of coaster-size deal to place under each leg of the sofa. I suppose I could improvise something. Just wondering if there's a product like this...


If so, has anyone a recommendation on what to get?

marty

Marty, how do you have them mounted? That's typically the limiting factor with shakers.. if they're decently mounted to the frame of the furniture somehow, you shouldn't have a problem getting all the shaking you can handle... :)

Marty, how do you have them mounted? That's typically the limiting factor with shakers.. if they're decently mounted to the frame of the furniture somehow, you shouldn't have a problem getting all the shaking you can handle...


Well, just as stated in the other posts...i.e., as much like DejaVu's design as possible. I think I came pretty close.

Also, it's not that I'm not shaking enough, just now, it's that my amp is still cranked, and I've got no headroom still.

I was just wondering if there's a type of furniture feet coasters some of you guys use.

Not a big deal, really.

mt

Oh yeah, sorry... got the people & threads mixed up...

Interesting that a 5x100W isn't enough... I don't use coasters, just the mounting on the frame is enough for me.

Originally posted by miltimj
Bud, the two links you posted are exact opposites.. you want the low pass so the only frequencies you receive are below that point (though it's not a hard cutoff, but heavily sloping).

The problem with using your receiver is if you have a sub in addition to the shakers (highly recommended by the way), you can't send a different signal from one to the other... it'd be one thing if the sub was supposed to be lower than the shakers because then you could use the crossover on the sub, but unfortunately it's the opposite.

So... I will use the receiver's processor/built-in crossover to effectively be an 80Hz low pass, split to my shaker amp (receiver) and sub, and use an FMOD to further limit the frequencies reproduced by the shakers.

Yeah, I thought that was the case. I haven't thought through the whole thing completely yet, but I was thinking of using two receivers (an old Kenwood to power the shakers) and plan on buying the Yamaha RXV-2500. From the Yamaha receiver, "Y" the sub out connection and have one side go to the sub and the other go to an input of the Kenwood receiver (not sure if this is doable or how the exact connections would be yet). I would assume after the Y split, I could attach the FMOD before (either end of the RCA patch cable) the Kenwood for the shakers. This would limit the lower frequencies just to the shakers. If this is doable, I would think I would have to split the overall input to the Kenwood into a Left and Right audio input? Or can I get away with a sub out and a sub pre-out connected to the Kenwood? I plan on 8 aura shakers and run two serially into the left and right channels on both A and B speaker selections (already tested this).

Thoughts?

Bud

What you describe is exactly how I have my setup (other than brand of receiver). One note I would add is to put the FMOD right after the Y-splitter so it's not directly connected to the shaker receiver (and thus has some flexibility to move around).

That setup should work perfectly... may need quite a bit of power for 16 ohms on each channel, but it should still work fine.

Speculatin' 'bout a Re-seever's impee-dance VS out put switchin' is risky bissness.

I've mentioned this before, but here it is again.

Simply attach a set of speakers to one output or the other (A or B)

Push in that respective button to hear "whatever".

Now push in the button that has no speakers attached to that output.

If your sound goes away, the your outputs are in series. Sound sticks around? The outputs are in parallel.

As a general rule, with older equipment, if the Minimum impedance is 8 ohms, the output will be in parallel. 4 Ohms, and the output will be in series, unless indeed the outputs have separate Power supplies and Output boards.

NO equipment I've seen discussed on this thread follows that scenario, excepting some of the gear I personally have related to.

The simple test outlined above can/will dispel all doubts.

PS,

Wha happen'd to the post about A/B switchin'. I just looked back, an it were gone?

PPS,

oh......there it is. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5463553#post5463553

MM,

I might have misinterpreted things (or I'm just ignorant).

Let me repeat what I think you said to make sure I understand. If you connect a pair of speakers (pair A) and hear music say, then select speaker pair B (with no speakers attached) and no longer hear music, the A/B speaker selection are in series. Correct?

So based on the input from Lazyhaze (copied here for clarification below), my interpretation was that if I connected two in series on each L&R channel on speakers A and on speakers B (option 1 in diagram) it would be equivalent to connecting 4 in series on each of the L&R channels on speakers A only (option B). The only problem with option 2 is that I lose the ability to turn half the shakers off. If I use option 1 and decide to turn speakers B off, is this a problem? Did I mess up?

On his other comment, I don't think I have a separate power for speakers B.

I'll run your test later today.

Originally posted by lazyhaze
Bud,

As far as I know when A+B are in use at the same time in a receiver, the loads connected to A+B are in parallel. In other words if you had an 8 Ohm load connected to A, and an 8 Ohm load connected to B, if you ran A+B at the same time you would have a 4 Ohm load presented to the receiver. So for your situation, running 4 per channel in a parallel/series (4 Ohm load) in just A is the exact same as running 2 in A and 2 in B. The only difference would be that with the A and B hookup, you could turn off half the shakers if you wanted to, but would lose the option to hook up a second pair of speakers that you could use in another room whenever the shakers weren't being used.

If for some reason your receiver has a separate power supply for A and B, there will be a difference. In going from a 8 Ohm load to a 4 Ohm load there is usually a power increase of about 45%. My receiver for example provides 70 Watts at 8 Ohms, and 100 Watts at 4 Ohms. For the 4 Ohm load, you would be getting a current of 5 Amps, but this would be divided by 2 as you have your shakers in a parallel/series connection, so 2.5 amps per pair.

For the 8 Ohm load, you would be getting approximately 2.96 amps per pair.


EDIT: Based on what I understood, my A&B are in parallel since I still here music with both A&B on. Here's a stupid question for you... are left and right considered to be in parallel? if that's the case, then I have 2*2 = 8 Ohms on left and 8 ohms on right which means net 4. If I do this on both A&B and these are in parallel, then I have a net of 2ohms. This would be a problem, huh? But, if left and right are not in parallel, then I assume I have 16 ohms in parallel with another 16 on speakers B which nets out to 8 ohms?

The other option would be to do what Deja-vue did here (http://www.itprofessionals.tv/Couchnew.jpg). My only question here is are they 4 in series and then in parallel on the side side (left) or are these four in series on each channel (Left and right). I guess if its the latter, that I could control on side or the other by the balance control?

Originally posted by miltimj
What you describe is exactly how I have my setup (other than brand of receiver). One note I would add is to put the FMOD right after the Y-splitter so it's not directly connected to the shaker receiver (and thus has some flexibility to move around).

That setup should work perfectly... may need quite a bit of power for 16 ohms on each channel, but it should still work fine.

Tim,

As far as the connection to the actual shaker receiver, is this what you did? See file attached.

Bud

Exactly, Bud.

Do the FMODs need to be placed before the audio in or can they be placed on the audio out?

Thanks,
Skip

Skip, have you looked at Bud's attachment two posts up (shaker_setup.jpg)? Does that answer your question?

Technically, you can do it either way, but I prefer just after the Y-cable that's connected to the main receiver's audio out.

Yup, I saw the post. Just curious if it could be done either way for future reference.

Thanks,
Skip

I'll be getting 6 shakers when I get chairs (2 rows of 3) this summer. In addition, we'll buy a subwoofer amp (Parts Express) to drive these things. Until then, we are doing some wiring for additional speakers, etc. in our room. In anticipation of shakers, I want to make sure we are wired correctly. I'd like to run speaker wire behind drywall & then out to the shakers.

My question is - do I run 2 sets of standard (2 strand) speaker wire to the eventual location? Or would 1 set do?

Thanks!
Bets

Betsy, the most flexible solution to prewire for shakers is to run a 2-strand speaker wire to each shaker (from the rack), and do all the parallel/series wiring at the rack. I'm just laying that out as a best case, if-you-can-do-it-then-do-it scenario.

To get the job done in the specific case you're mentioning, you should be able to get away with one 2-strand wire to each riser.

Thanks Tim! We'll run wire tonight.

Here's an interesting question (for me anyway). Looking at Clark's transducers they have a description of what they call the "Jurrasic Couch" setup. Essentially they use three of their transducers in a couch, much like we use 3 shakers. Where they differ however is what they do with them. Instead of running them all off the sub channel, they only run the center one off the sub. They run the left and right ones off the LF and RF speakers, with them set to large. They claim it gives you a better sense of direction for the tactile feel.

Sooo... if you are only concerned with wiring a single couch, couldn't we duplicate the same effect with shakers? For instance, I have a Denon 3805. Currently I'm running my LCR speakers off 2 2 channel amps with the 4th channel driving my 3 shakers. I've aslo got a PB10 for my sub. My Alpha 50 fronts are set to small, and my crossover is set to 80hz. Using the idea from Clark, I could drive the shakers directly off the FL and FR terminals on the Denon and set the speakers to Large. I would probably then put a filter in line to cut them so that they only responded above 80hz or so, and not screw up my other bass. The center shaker I would leave connected to the sub channel and the amp.

Anyone see any flaws in my theory? Is this a road anyone else has pursued?

Thanks,
MP

madpoet, this is technically a possibility, but as someone else has said before (I think Bob, regarding out of phase shakers), if you can tell a difference between the shaker next to you and the one under you, you're sitting too close. :)

That said, I suppose there may be a difference in whether they are actually outputting or not... that should be relatively obvious. Interesting... that may be something worth looking into. So you'd want to put a Y-splitter on each LF/RF pre-amp outs, and at least one FMOD after that Y-split to the shaker amp/receiver. One downside to this whole approach is that you'll need at least two amps/receivers (or a multi-channel amp)... since you'll probably use one receiver and put the LF output to a CD left input, RF output to the CD right input, but then need a separate amp for the center shaker (sub channel). By the way, 80Hz seems much too high, because there will be rolloff above that as well.

Well, after giving my idea some more thought it seems impractical for one reason... volume levels. Unless I amp channels for the shakers instead of driving them off my speaker terminals for FL/FR, I can't independently control the volume levels. And since I REALLY don't need more amps, I'll leave the idea alone for now. But it does have me curious!

Yeah.. I suppose you could do it the opposite way and use the AVR to power your fronts, but you probably don't want to do it that way (otherwise you wouldn't have gotten the external amps in the first place...) But it'd be an interesting experiment nevertheless.

If I have some spare time I might give it a try just to see what the effect is like. I'm not entirely sold on "directional transducing" but it will be fun to try.

-MP

If you run multiple transducers you may experience the phenomenon of transducer cancellation.

Put crudely; It's hard to feel the snap at your heels when you're getting punched in the face.

I have experienced bass shaker cancellation (and it's easy to demonstrate) where the most powerful effect overshadows any other. The transducer is still shaking but the body simply can't cope with the additional sensory stimulation.

It is better to run devices that operate at different frequencies that affect different areas of the couch than together (footstools for example).

In short; sometimes more is just more - not better.

am i doing something wrong-?bass shakers not working
I connected in series 2 bass shakers each to the left and right front speakerchannels of an integra dtr 5.3 5.3 85 watts perchannel receiver.
I than wired my 2nd subout from my pre pro to the integra (split l/r to integra)
i am not getting any response from the auras- tried 5th element dvd-but no "shake"
thanks

"am i doing something wrong-?bass shakers not working
I connected in series 2 bass shakers each to the left and right front speakerchannels of an integra dtr 5.3 5.3 85 watts perchannel receiver.
I than wired my 2nd subout from my pre pro to the integra (split l/r to integra)
i am not getting any response from the auras- tried 5th element dvd-but no "shake"
thanks"




I had the same problem, at first. For me, the resolution was to loosen up on the mounting screws. I've found that it's pretty crucial that your mounting surface is flat, and that you should set the screws just to the point to where you can't move the units with your hand. In other words, tighten them down just enough to secure them, and not any tighter.

I had mine so securely fastened, I could just barely feel the shake. If that doesn't do it, and you're wired properly, then someone here will have some help for you, I'm certain.

Good luck,

Marty

Try putting the receiver in stereo mode as well, to focus the power to only two channels.

the shakers appear to be not working there is not even a hum coming from them.But I doubt that
all 4 would be bad.strange

Perhaps diagram your exact wire configuration for us, as it may be the problem. You should be able to feel something from them... maybe hook your sub to the 2nd preout to test it's functionality as well (with the exact same source material as you use to test the shakers... test tone?)

Try tuning the old receiver to a "Rap" or "Pop" music station. The shakers should be vibrating in step with the music. That will prove the wiring to the shakers and let you concentrate on the feed from the LFE out on your main receiver.

Hey Guys...........,

He said there was NO hum, nor nuthin' cumin frum 'em.

First thing first, jossix,

If you have a Muti-meter, anolog or digital, read across the + / -- to assure that you have 8 Ohm load.

8 Ohms, eh?

Check your Receiver's outputs and be sure to determine whether A or B is being used, and then be sure the appropriate button/switch is engaged. Also be sure the other Speakers are NOT engaged. Do as multimj said, and switch to Stereo Mode.

Use the "Aux" or MD/Tape Inputs.

"Y" off the Sub 1 output if you KNOW it to be functioning.

Crank the Interga up to 70% volume minimum.

Run a Sub-Woofer Test Tone.

Still no shake?

Your cursed. Live with it. :D :mad: ;) :p

"Your Intrega is Blown, or your connecting cables are bogus"

Just added a 50 Hz low pass F-Mod to the LFE signal that feeds our shaker amplifier. Tested it with Ice Age DVD this evening. Works very well, and shakes our seats when appropriate.

BTW, just ordered the F-Mod from Parts Express over the weekend. Excellent delivery by Parts Express and UPS! :)

Unfortunately, they sell them in pairs... interested in selling your other one? I've got them queued up in my PE shopping cart with a host of other stuff I'll be ordering soon, but hate to have to order a pair when I just need one.

Bud

Bud,

We're using our old A/V stuff in our den. I'd like to hang on to the extra F-Mod just in case I install shakers in the recliners there.

Not a problem! Thanks.

I finally hooked up my first Aura Pro under one of my Berks. Wow!

But the rest of them will be more challenging... can someone markup this diagram with red and black lines to suggest the best way to connect these (I numbered the red and black connectors if it's easier to describe in words).

http://img129.echo.cx/img129/8/shakers5qa.gif

I have an 8 ohm subwoofer output on my amp.
I have 3 Aura Pro's (4 ohms) for each of my Berkline recliners.
I have 4 Aura 25W's (4 ohms) to put under my 4'x8' riser for the 2nd row.
I have an (8 ohm) subwoofer (my other subwoofer has it's own amp and is driven by a separate LFE signal output).

Thanks!

Originally posted by Clarence
I finally hooked up my first Aura Pro under one of my Berks. Wow!

But the rest of them will be more challenging... can someone markup this diagram with red and black lines to suggest the best way to connect these (I numbered the red and black connectors if it's easier to describe in words).

http://img129.echo.cx/img129/8/shakers5qa.gif

I have an 8 ohm subwoofer output on my amp.
I have 3 Aura Pro's (4 ohms) for each of my Berkline recliners.
I have 4 Aura 25W's (4 ohms) to put under my 4'x8' riser for the 2nd row.
I have an (8 ohm) subwoofer (my other subwoofer has it's own amp and is driven by a separate LFE signal output).

Thanks! If it's too much for the single receiver, I also have an old Kenwood "KR-V7020" receiver from circa 1990.
100w/channel x4.

The back of the old Kenwood says:
A or B: 4~16 ohms
A and B: 8~16 ohms

My primary receiver has a separate subwoofer 8 ohm output (which is currently going to sub2) and a LFE output (which is going to sub1: the 300W powered 15" sub). Which output from amp1 would be best to use as input to amp2? I'd guess a splitter from LFE would work? Split1 going to big sub1 and split2 going to amp2 for the shakers?

So if I send the LFE channel from my main A/V receiver and send it to the Kenwood for the shakers, how should I wire them?

Additional consideration... when I pre-wired, I ran 3 in-wall wires from the A/V rack to the seating area for the shakers (for the front row recliners; the 4 shakers for the 2nd-row riser were a recent addition). And separate wires to sub1 and sub2.

So if I add the 2nd amp to the stack just for the shakers, how should I hook up the wires?

Is this OK?...

wire1 (A left) sub2
wire2 (A right) 3 aura pros in front row
wire3 (B left) left 2 auras in riser
wire4 (B right) right 2 auras in riser

So you're saying you have two power sources? A separate amplifier, and an old Kenwood receiver? Do you want to use them both?

I would hook up the three pros in series to the left channel, and the four standards in series to the right channel, and use the balance control to make the shaking "even" between the two sets, with the appropriate volume as well.

If this doesn't quite make sense, or you want more details, let me know. An alternative is to use the mono (I'm assuming) amp only and wire the two sets as described above in parallel and connect to the single amp out. I'm assuming your sub is powered then (I wouldn't ever power a passive sub and shakers with the same amp).

You are correct in splitting the LFE RCA cable from the main A/V receiver to the amp for sub, and amp/receiver for shakers.

Here's my best shot...

http://img239.echo.cx/img239/7456/shakers38pd.gif

It gets a lot easier if I buy another shaker for the front row (currently just shown as a green resistor).

4 shakers in 3 recliners, but I guess it won't hurt to have 2 shakers under one of the seats.

Clarence,

Your old Kenwood's outputs are designed to work in a Parallel mode when A&B are engaged.

The outputs will easily handle 4 ohms.

You "should" wire two Tactile in parallel (2 ohms) and the 3rd Tactile and 4 Ohm resistor likewise (2 ohms) then do a series at the Kenwood that will bring the impedance back up to 4 Ohms.

Use both Channels, 1 each for the Chairs and Platform respectively.

The Chairs will produce more effect per watt than the Platform, so by using the Kenwood's Balance control, you can dole out the specific amount of "shake" needed.

By going the route I describe, each of your 4 Tactile circuits will posses twice the power handling capability of one Tactile. By going with a Series configuration alone, both your power handling will drop down to that of what any one Tactile can handle, and you will force the LFE signal to loop back and forth through both the Receiver 's output and the various Tactile circuits.

Also, your Receiver is rated at more power into 4 Ohms than into 8 Ohms, and when you engage both A&B, you raise the impedance the Receiver sees up to 16 Ohms. At 16 Ohms, that ol' Kenny will be putting out only 1/3rd it's rated output at any one Volume setting, forcing you to use a higher setting that would be recommended. When LFE effect kick in big time, you can easily push the Amp into distortion, causing "Rattles" and ofttimes sending the Receiver into "Protection" mode, trip a Fuse (...very old Kenwoods have separate fuses for each Output...) or worse, toast an output on the Kenny or Tactile.

Although it may be hard for you to fathom, I've done far more Tactile systems than Light Fusion Screens. Many here must deal with amp sources that are old "toss outs" with only 8 ohms as a minimum impedance. You have a beefier Receiver, so you should not tie your hands behind your back by using wiring configurations that cater to applications that posses amps of that ilk.

BTW, the use of a Resistor is good, but be sure to mount it suspended off any combustible material. They seldom get hot enough to do more than "scorch" something, but prudence dictates a careful approach.

Lastly, expect to, and be sure to note, the different volume settings you need to employ when switching from Dolby Digital to DTS program material. DTS produces LFE that is on the order of 3 times as intense. Using the same settings for DTS as you have for the more common DD will result in a "Bass Enema" of distressing proportions, and quickly render something useless.

Last of the Lastlies,

You can and should continue to split the LFE signal using "Y" cords. I've done so, "Y"ing first off the unit, then again of one leg of the first "Y" works fine. There is no significant loss of signal.

I'm just going to get another shaker (instead of a resistor) so each channel is 8 ohms.

Here's a picture of an Aura Pro bass shaker mounted under one of my Berkline 090 recliners.

http://img58.echo.cx/img58/5628/berkaura6kw.jpg

It's just a 1"x6" board with 4 holes drilled in it for 4 small/long bolts (left over from installing the extended-depth power outlet receptacles), sandwiching one of the seat's support braces.

On the bottom, I put an Aura Pro, a DVD (for size comparison), and an Aura Standard.

I've sat in a friend's chairs with the real Butt Kickers factory installed in Berks... the effect I'm getting with this quick mount setup is comparable. I was expecting much less. The bolts are just a little more than hand tightened. I'm getting a nice rumble, not just a rattle.

Close-up:
http://img56.echo.cx/img56/5144/berk90aura3cj.jpg

All,

I'm curious. Has anyone had an Aura shakers that have failed and needed to be replaced? I recently came across this thread and there is some discussion about it. What about other brands? Any problems?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5599424#post5599424

I haven't had that problem, but I haven't used mine much either (relative to others). I'd be curious to know that actually would break in a bass shaker (without a LOT of wear)... Unfortunately, "FAIL A LOT" doesn't explain much (at least to me), especially from a salesman. ;)

What do people who do furniture mounting do to decouple/isolate the furniture? There's some very fancy stuff out there (Clark sells isolators that are $50 EACH!), and some cheap stuff (i.e. $3/foot). My couch has narrow rectangular wooden feet and sits on berber carpet on top of a concrete slab. So the floor's not going to shake no matter what I try ;). Just curious if isolation feet have helped other people with shakers.

I'm buying 6 shakers. My wife isn't that excited about the shakers, so in order to appease her I want to but in an on/off or volume switch for each chair so that if she doesn't like them she (or whoever else) can easily turn them off. Not sure if that'll work effectively since the berkline's are connected in groups of 3, but what's the best way to do this?

Would a 50watt 8ohm l-pad work? Does turning the volume all the way down turn it off? is 50 watt good enough (i'm picking 50watt since that is the same or more as the aura shakers.).

If that l-pad is not the way to go, any other ideas?

Thanks

ok, i've got all the info now. I've got 6 shakers and 6 chairs. I'm looking at the 25 watt aura shakers.

The receiver that will power these is
Stereo: 70 watts per channel (40 Hz to 20 kHz, @ 8 ohm, 0.9% THD)

I'll put it in mono mode, and run the chairs this way:




LEFT
+ -
------------------------------| |--------------------------------
| |
| |
+--------\|/----------------------\|/---------------------\|/----------+
| | | | | |
+--[+==-] +--[+==-] +--[+==-]


RIGHT
+ -
------------------------------| |--------------------------------
| |
| |
+--------\|/----------------------\|/---------------------\|/----------+
| | | | | |
+--[+==-] +--[+==-] +--[+==-]



Please note that \|/ is an L-PAD (
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-255) and [+==-] is a shaker.

is that the right L-pad for the job? The wattage confuses me. Is my setup correct? thanks. I'm not an audio guy so please bear with with me.

If its 70 watts per channel, how many is each shaker / l-pad getting wired this way? And if the l-pad maintains 8-ohm, and i'm passing 4 is that ok?

Thanks

Don't worry about the wattage... the receiver you have should be enough for that number of shakers.

I'm not positive about the L-pads.. it may "work", but it'll probably maintain an 8-ohm impedance regardless of the setting on the L-pad, which will mean the total impedance will be 24-ohms per channel, which will become an under-powering issue with your receiver.

If the L-pad does work as above, you may need to find a different, 4-ohm version (if they exist), otherwise get an external mono amp (or bridge it to mono), and hook them all up to the mono channel as 3 series pairs, in parallel.

Hi all,

I'd like to try something different with my current set up.

I'm now running my four 4ohm shakers in series (2 each ch, L/R) from a 100w sony amp.
I'd like to feel the difference when I hook them up to my 550w Sub amp, which is mono, of course. Additionally, I'll soon be adding 4 more shakers, and will be using the sub amp for all 8 shakers. (Still waiting to upgrade to the SVS...)

I'm unclear on how to best wire four and/or eight 50w 4ohm shakers to the 550w mono amp.

Can a brother get a little help?

Thanks!

Marty

excellent point tim, I wasn't even thinking of that.

So basically my question is how to wire up 6 8-ohm speakers (lpads) and not exceed the 8ohm load. Any thoughts?

unseth, the only way to do that is to either hook them up to a mono (or bridged multi-channel) amp as I said before, or have them be unbalanced. Now that I think about it, the balancing is really only useful to keep the shakers at the same level, but since you're using L-pads, you can adjust to compensate for this. In that case, forget the mono amp and do the following with *each* set of three:
1) Connect two L-pads together in series (8+8 in series = 16)
2) Connect that pair in parallel with the third L-pad (16+8 in parallel = 5.33)
3) Connect to one of the channels

Provided you don't crank the volume on them, your receiver will probably be fine. See if there are any impedance ratings on the receiver... I've heard (mostly in this thread) that even those that just specify 8ohms, can usually go to 6 no problem...

If you can add another shaker to each channel (total of 8), that will make things much easier, and you won't have to worry about your receiver at all.

Marty, for 8 shakers to a mono amp, see what Deja-vue posted in post #602 (for 8 ohm load):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5433266#post5433266

I was going to just add 2 more l-pads to the config to make it easier, but then I discovered that partsexpress' lpads are on backorder till 7/29, so i'm just going to buy 8 shakers and do a standard setup.

I can always reconfig with 8 lpads when they get in stock if it turns out that I need them. Thanks for your help.

Marty, for 8 shakers to a mono amp, see what Deja-vue posted in post #602 (for 8 ohm load):


That's just what I needed. Thanks, Tim.

If I'm to wire 4 shakers, I'd just remove the 4 innnermost shakers in that diagram, correct?

marty

For four shakers, ensure that your mono sub amp can handle 4 ohms (it should be able to no problem), and remove the shakers that have only red wires connected to its terminals (two on each side in that diagram). In other words, two series pairs connected in parallel.

Has anyone used Shakers on marquee style theater chairs? I may add a row of these for the back, just wonder if anyone has tried and where the shakers are attached.

Thanks,
Bob

Originally posted by bob md
Has anyone used Shakers on marquee style theater chairs? I may add a row of these for the back, just wonder if anyone has tried and where the shakers are attached.
I would think that most who have done this mount them to the riser they are sitting on, and decouple the riser for maximum effect.

Originally posted by miltimj
I would think that most who have done this mount them to the riser they are sitting on, and decouple the riser for maximum effect.
That makes sense. I will be building a riser - is decoupling achieved by isolation pads of some sort?

Thanks,
Bob

You can get more info in the Home Theater Builders Forum, such as these threads:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=532822
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=537012
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=523260 (post 14+)

Originally posted by bob md
That makes sense. I will be building a riser - is decoupling achieved by isolation pads of some sort?

Thanks,
Bob

Risers are easily isolated by placing them on top of 1/2" Celotex (...or similar brand...) Blackboard Sheathing.

If the riser is sizable enough, it's own weight will suffice to hold it in place, But often, toeing in each corner with a large 2-1/2" Coarse Threaded Screw can help to tune the Riser. Just as getting the "tightness" of the screws holding a Tactile down to the right level of pressure can make all the difference as to if the effect is desirable, "too loose" platforms don't resonate, or rumble with a deep sensation; they just shake. Rattle. Buzz.

I just completed another 8 tactile installation. 4 under a 8" tall riser, 4 in front of that one in a 4" tall riser. Both "Float" on top of Blackboard, the rear just sits there, the front is toed down on four corners.

It's a sweet looking installation, with curved step downs to the second and floor levels.

100" diagonal 4: 3 screen though. X-Box addict. Pic to follow.

Sweet, great info MMan... looking forward to the pics... do you have some of the construction in progress as well as finished product?

Originally posted by miltimj
Sweet, great info MMan... looking forward to the pics... do you have some of the construction in progress as well as finished product?


Yes I do, but they won't be posted until this weekend or Monday.

Below is a post previously posted in HTB.

10.0 on the Richter Scale

Dampening: ( without a Sponge)

The harmonic (...or non-harmonic as it were....) resonant points on a well built Riser are usually around 120 Hz @ 85 db. and again at 60 Hz @ 78 db ,
though these points can be dampened further by using cross bracing every 20" between the 16" o.c. Studs. Or one can use 12" o.c. construction. Rigidity and mass prevents adverse and uncontrolled resonating. dampening a "problem" inherent in a surface area over 28 sq. feet with Insulation is an exercise in 'almost futility', one that I see has been repeated here ofttimes. (...emphasis on the "Almost")

Stuffing insulation inside a riser really only helps prevent a "Drum Head" effect when one walks across it, or jump[s up and down upon it. . Much the same as adding Batt insulation to the underneath of a Stairway will keep the baby Elephants from making annoying sounds at 6 AM.

True "Tactile Resonant" Dampening occurs only when the mass & volume of the Dampening material meets or exceed the mass of the resonating material. That would take some awfully compressed Fiberglas. And a awful lot of it too! Stiffening the Riser assembly and adding mass offers more "audible' improvements. Usually, just the addition of 2 or 3 Human bodies can make a noticible difference.

(But I do not advocate the use of Cadavers in exception to Batt insulation as they lose mass as they dessicate.)

As a rule, and with the exception of actual "Second Floor over a Ceiling" mounted" Tactile applications, adding Batts usually is just a case of "It makes me feel better..." type thinking because not enough insulations is or can be used to make a real difference as far as Frequency dampening.

We are not talking "Q" factors here, nor is there any degree of internal pressure existing within the Plenum that needs to be absorbed, redirected, or enhanced. Rather, the object is to have a good balance between Mass and Energy applied.

However, if it is all that can be done, doing the stuffing as many have; by stuffing as much insulation as one can get into the plenum, is as good as a solution to help prevent "Howling" as stuffin' can provide.

A properly though out Riser employing Tactiles will have substantial mass, and adequate Tactiles employed so as to saturate the Riser with energy across the entire surface. A single Tactile turned up 'too far' might not distort, but the excessive focused energy in the close proximity of the Tactile will be, and is the cause of "Howling" That is the point where the energy to Mass exceeds the material's ability to absorb and resonate accurately, and starts creating it's own adverse frequencies that can either cancel out whole sections of Bass, or create a sudden Spike or Peak in resonance that can be anything from annoying to overwhelmingly obnoxious. (...as in "Elephants.)

ISOLATION:

Isolation comes as easily as placing the Riser on top of a piece of Fibrous Blackboard Sheathing. Large Risers (...over 8' x 4' w/3/4" Decking ) stay in place of their own weight. Smaller ones shoul be "toed in" with 2-1/2" to 3" Coarse Threaded Screws that are tightened down ONLY to the "snug" point needed to keep the Platform from adversely resonating or "jumping about".

5 years ago, in London (Blighty Town") at a Club called "Priviledge", I helped design and install a "Floating Dance Floor" that had (...get this...) 120 Tactiles. Powered by over 6500 watts total. Now THIS application had only rubber feet on every corner where the 12" square framing came together. Every tactile had it's own 12" box (...think GIANT Checkerboard) There was "2" layers of 3/4" Flooring. The first was 3/4" marine grade Plywood, the second was 3/4" Parquet strips overlaid on a 1/4" thick Rubber matt.

Brother Enthusiasts, that floor could physically mover over 250 humans up & down to the beat. So powerful was the resonance, you could only play the Floor at max volume when it was fully loaded with humanity or it would actually Jump up and down to the beat of it's own volition.

But there was never any howling, because even at that energy level, the resonant point of the floor was far under the bottom end level of frequency sent to the Floor (estimated @ 28 Hz to 30 Hz.)

I have had good results by either mounting a Tactile upon a "Sub Plate" of 1/2" x 12" x 12" Plywood and then onto 3/4" decking, or if wood flooring was used, directly onto the Sub-flooring itself. Time and time again.

Everyone's results my vary somewhat but if one at leasts uses clean, adequate amplification. (...old Pawn Shop Amps are good for Chairs, lousy for real "Power Hungry" applications like Floors and Risers...), makes his Riser really sturdy and doesn't scrimp on the Lumber, and then uses an adequate number of tactiles, results should virtually always be in the "OH my Gawd!" category.

Mississippi Man and Tim,

Can you take a look at my post 664 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5546412#post5546412) and answer my question please? I want to make sure I'm clear on the subject.

Thanks,

Bud

Bud,

If I were you, I wouldn't use B and therefore it wouldn't matter whether they're in parallel or series. The same power will go out one or both outputs, so just connect to speaker A (L&R) and add speakers, "balancing" as necessary between L&R and parallel/series to reach your desired total impedance on each channel (probably 8 ohms ideally).

I hope this answers your question... it may not be completely clear, but it's easiest IMO to just follow Occam's Razor, which says "if two options are equally viable, use the simpler".

Thanks Tim and I agree, simpler is usually better.

For me to use eight 4 ohm Auras, the best way to get to 8 ohms overall is to serial 4 shakers (4+4+4+4=16 ohms), the parallel them with another 4 in serial (16/2 = 8). That's pretty much Deja-vue's diagram (http://www.itprofessionals.tv/Couchnew.jpg) . I assume in his diagram that when they're paralleled, both branches of the circuit need to be in the same channel (Either Left or right, but not one branch of 16 ohms in L AND the other in R).

Bud

That's certainly possible, but then you actually are wasting power (since you're only using one channel, L or R. That's essentially 200W worth of shakers on one channel, so you'll have to crank it up quite a bit. The alternative is getting a cheap mono amp to supply plenty of power, or checking if your receiver can handle a 4 ohm load, and just splitting everything in half from what you described (4+4/2 = 4 ohms on each channel).

OK, so now I'm confused again. The cheapo Kewood VR-507 (http://hometheater.about.com/blvr-507.htm) I bought off eBay for $$88 to power the shakers is 100W per channel, so do I go with 4in serial on Left and 4 in serial on the right?

Bud

That's another option. ;) It'll run at 16 ohms though, but w/100WPC, that should be enough power... I wasn't sure what receiver you had (some are running old 40-50 wpc receivers, etc). Although, I wonder if there's an All Stereo DSP mode on that receiver, in which case you could run 4 pairs (using all but one channel on that 5 channel receiver), and it'll output the same signal to all channels, and have an 8 ohm load everywhere.

mine are wired for a 12 ohm load and my couch feels like it's going to come apart during the Pod Race Scene.You'll get plenty of shaking with your 16 ohm load withthat receiver.

brickie

Tim,

Is this what you are referring to? Sounds like instead of A-L&R, B-L&R, We're talking 2 on A -L&R and 2 on each surround input using this DSP mode. See attached, pulled from the manual.

Brickie,

Thanks for the input, I need to run a few more tests!!

Bud

That's exactly what I'm suggesting, Bud. As Brickie said, the 16 ohms shouldn't be a problem, but I guess if I had a choice in the matter (ie the wiring isn't an issue, and the DSP mode works) I'd probably use 100W x 4, with the volume down considerably. :)

I screwed 3 of the smaller aura's under my riser tonight... great effect, even better than the aura pros mounted under my berks.

http://img103.echo.cx/img103/4126/aurariser3sv.jpg

3 in series for 12 ohms...

http://img163.echo.cx/img163/1006/aurariser25lw.gif

Hooked up to an old Kenwood receiver, with an LFE splitter from my main receiver. Volume set at ~30%.

The green tape is leftover Integrity Gaskets (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5333235#post5333235) to avoid any rattles (real use is for between sheetrock and studs)... no rattles and it doesn't seem to reduce the desired rumble.

These things are great!

Interesting..You really get a good feel with tjust the Auras mounted to the riser?Many would say no way they could be strong enough for that..I would be the effect is even MORE unlocalized!What type of chairs on riser?

brickie

I'm very surprised that 3 standard auras do it as well... maybe part of the reason that I have 16 of them... :) (And they're cheaper in bulk, and I figured somebody I know might want to buy a couple off me)

I guess we'll have to see... I still quite a while before I need to worry about this, but I'm definitely convinced now that putting them in a riser is the way to go (more realistic, as opposed to feeling vibration under your butt, but your feet are firmly on the floor, etc).

Originally posted by brickie
Interesting..You really get a good feel with just the Auras mounted to the riser?Many would say no way they could be strong enough for that..I would be the effect is even MORE unlocalized!What type of chairs on riser?Yep, I got the under-the-riser idea a couple of pages back. I like it because I don't have to worry about finding a good location to mount on the seat backs. And it makes it seem like the whole room is rumbling, not just your bottom.

These are the chairs I have on a riser for the second row... And this riser is heavy.

http://img44.echo.cx/img44/7347/9may04306bx.jpg

I don't know if it makes a difference, but I chose 3 different 2x8's to screw the Aura's into.

The effect under the riser is as strong as the Aura Pro's attached to the frames of my Berks, and as strong as I recall Curtis's factory installed buttkickers. After testing them with my LFE disk, I've turned my 2nd receiver (driving the Aura's) down to ~20% for a more subtle effect. I cranked it up past 50%, too much effect (as expected), but no bottoming out.

I can use the volume to increase it if desired, and I can use balance to control row 1 vs row 2.

Cool!!I Like the seats.I think I may end up having to go with true theater chairs in my future theater..Wife wants around 12 seats,and "true" seats are the only way it'll happen.

brickie

I don't know if it makes a difference, but I chose 3 different 2x8's to screw the Aura's into... one under the front mounting bolts of the chair frames, one under the back bolt (I still need to paint those bolts flat black), and one under the sitters' feet.

Brickie, if you were closer, I've got a dozen theater seats in my garage I need to move out.

I guess nobody else has been reading my posts but me. ;)

From the start I said, Use tactiles correctly with Risers and the effect is far more realistic and emphatic than ANY chair application can ever possibly hope to be, Why? There is simply not enough Mass and Surface area for effective resonating.

That everybody still thinks their results are "Killer" is both good (for them) and a product of not knowing anything else but that application.

Also, most everybody is stuck on using 3, or 5, and doing so in an inefficient manner, This is due to "Gee, I can buy Auras so cheap, and I'm doing everything on "the cheap", so I'm not buying anymore than I have to." kinda thinking. I'm not "Dissin' " here, I've read that exact (or damn close) statement at least 10 times in this thread alone!

Buds, you get what you pay for.

No 15 year old Pawn Shop amp is going to thump your hind end and feet like a Amp that can drive a 2 Ohm load and deliver 350 wpc doing so.
(Ok, maybe it will if your driving 1 or 2 Auras with 120 wpc. Big job, eh? Pushing 2 little 25 watt magnets.

No chair with 1 Tactile attached will receive and resonate a 60 Hz signal with as much effect and emphasis as 4 Tactiles located in a Riser constructed properly.

Clarence, you've built a "Boom Box" of a Riser, and because of that, those standard Auras can easily drive the Risers mass into resonant heaven. But even with your sterling results, your gonna find just how limited that range of acceptable sound is as soon as you push that array with a good DTS sound track, and goose the volume.

The Riser need more stiffening, at least 16 o.c. with those 2" x 6"s

(BTW, I really admire your end results, Clarence. But tell me, what screen are you using? Even CMRA cannot say at present.

For goodness sakes People. MORE IS BETTER as far as the use of Tactiles.

The object should be, and is to saturate the ENTIRE mass of an object with an even and well balanced amount of energy, dispersed throughout.
A Tactile driven too hard in one spot localizes the effect (Cannon Enemas?) and can all to easily cause the object (Chair, Couch, or Riser) to experience "Howling", a phenomena common to Speaker cabinets where the resonant "Q" factor of the driver is improperly matched with the Speaker Cabinet's design and/or volume. Once a saturation point is reached, a "Bass Peak" is quickly reached at a certain frequency and that particular frequency become painfully more apparent that anything else.

Only a object whose own Mass can help it resist being overpowered, or a lessor level of energy dispersed more evenly throughout a object with less "Mass" can deliver truly accurate "sub bass" tactile effects.

Man, when Bombs go off, do you want to feel the concussion, or just a 'rumble or shake'?

When one of my Tactile arrays go off, everything goes off. Eyes roll back. Jaws drop. Feet lift up spontaneously. Sometimes, people jump up out of their chairs, and not because the chair itself gave them a prod.

(Master & Commander -Under Attack- Heard with 2 -10" in-wall subs and 8 Aura Pros in a solid Sub Floor can make a Linebacker cringe and wet himself!)

I've experienced Auras, Clarks, RBHs, ButtKickers, and other Tactiles in Chair / Couch applications of many different types, and only furniture designs that allow for the aggressive stiffening and Plywood under-sheathing of a large area work anywhere even remotely as well as a Riser can when done 'rightly'.

I cannot easily place the last time I ever used just 4 Tactiles in a application. I can however tell you how many times I've use an odd number tactiles per channel. Never. Nor have I EVER series-ed a load up over 8 ohms merely to appease the needs of an anemic amp or receiver. If I need to balance my impedance, I'll add another unit, parallel 2 per pair, then series the two pair back up to the original impedance.

I've done at least one system with 18 Tactiles where 3 were paralleled down to 1.33 ohms, then three sets of 3 Tactiles series-ed together up to 3.9 Ohms, then driven with an amp capable of driving such a load. Four complete identical arrays. 2 Stereo Amplifiers. 1400 watts total.

Chairs are certainly "OK" when nothing else can do (if done 'rightly') but don't ever go near one of my 8 Tactile (...or more!) Riser/Floor applications if you don't want to experience how the "other half lives".

Sour Grapes are bitter indeed.

And for a prime example of "I didn't know that...", it seems than a lot of people are clueless as to what really makes a tactile work. All to often, the tactiles are tightened down so much, the Piston inside cannot "jump back' along it's travel with any real response time. This creates both a gross inefficency as well as a retardation of the tactile's energy transfer at the resonating bass of the unit.

Originally posted by MississippiMan
No 15 year old Pawn Shop amp is going to thump your hind end and feet like a Amp that can drive a 2 Ohm load and deliver 350 wpc doing so.
(Ok, maybe it will if your driving 1 or 2 Auras with 120 wpc. Big job, eh? Pushing 2 little 25 watt magnets.I couldn't imagine wanting, needing, or liking more rumble than is currently being provided by my 15 year old Kenwood driving 6 shakers with the volume at ~20%. your gonna find just how limited that range of acceptable sound is as soon as you push that array with a good DTS sound track, and goose the volume.Have you seen this LFE demo DVD thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5590818#post5590818)?
http://img69.echo.cx/img69/9478/lfedemo0dq.th.jpg (http://img69.echo.cx/img69/9478/lfedemo0dq.jpg)

I goosed the volume up to 50% last night just for giggles... again, more rumble than anyone would ever want, but it handled it at all levels without distortion.The Riser need more stiffening, at least 16 o.c. with those 2" x 6"sthey're 2x8s and it's pretty solid, but I can add braces to bring it up to 16"OC.BTW, I really admire your end results ClarenceThanks. Here's the panoramic view I made this weekend:
http://herndonrelay.org/avs/qt.jpg (http://herndonrelay.org/avs/ht-panoram.mov)
But tell me, what screen are you using?I still have to finish off a false wall for the front speakers. The screen is just Kilz2 right now... I'm waiting until my projector is in it's final location before I mess with the screen. Right now, the previous model is just temporarily hanging on chains from the mounting position.When one of my Tactile arrays go off, everything goes off. Eyes roll back. Jaws drop. Feet lift up spontaneously. Sometimes, people jump up out of their chairs, and not because the chair itself gave them a prod.I'd like to try one of your professional shaker setups one day. But right now, I couldn't imagine "more shakin'" necessarily being needed... for a fun demo maybe, but for full-length features, I'm already turning the levels down to a subtle rumble.

Well, all that sound, (...er, feels.) pretty correct.

Your Riser is a small one anyway. I'm sure your results come from both the resonant qualities that a "solid" 3/4' wood provides, as well as the "diaphram like" action of the unsupported surface area.

What really matters is that it's working, and you like it. You are at least one individulal I know who will not be a "under- acheiver" if you have any say so in the matter.

Here you go..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/MississippiMan/Home%20Theater%20Installations/8TactileArray.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/MississippiMan/Home%20Theater%20Installations/RiserImage1.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v425/MississippiMan/Home%20Theater%20Installations/Riserimage2.jpg

I definitely like the idea of more shakers to disperse the shaking (minimize localization), but that obviously implies turning them down quite a bit (even with stiffening the riser and making it heavier), so I would think that even with 12-16 shakers, since you need to turn them down, you could still use a cheap amp to drive them.

MMan, what do you think about the integrity gaskets Clarence used? Do you typically mount straight to the subfloor (plywood)? Also, how would you suggest weighting the riser (other than cadavers)? I'm thinking that sheating you mentioned could go on the bottom, which could hold sand (up to a point... enough to weigh more than the amount on the riser), then put insulation on top of the sand. Then mount the plywood as subfloor on top of the joists (say, 12" OC), or doubles at 16"OC. The problem I see with this plan is not easily being able to tweak the tightness of the auras' mounting (once they're on, they're enclosed in a box essentially). Any thoughts on this setup, or on how to better do it?

I guess what I'm asking is what would the ideal construction be (with reasonable amount of $$$ on construction resources) for a riser in an HT in your opinion? (I've seen you write about general theory, and a few examples of construction, but not specific to a riser and/or the whole package). Thanks..

Originally posted by miltimj
I definitely like the idea of more shakers to disperse the shaking (minimize localization), but that obviously implies turning them down quite a bit (even with stiffening the riser and making it heavier), so I would think that even with 12-16 shakers, since you need to turn them down, you could still use a cheap amp to drive them.

Not at all. Properly wired, and with multiples, even dispersion comes from plenty of power evenly dispersed. Yes, each individual Tactile will get less power when more are used, but the overall power required will rise.

LFE effect ran through a Receiver can easily distort the outputs at higher volumes. Clarence's example is one where efficiency works to an advantage. I use ONLY 16" o.c. construction, and "Boiler Plate" screw down the flooring.


MMan, what do you think about the integrity gaskets Clarence used? Do you typically mount straight to the subfloor (plywood)? Also, how would you suggest weighting the riser (other than cadavers)? I'm thinking that sheathing you mentioned could go on the bottom, which could hold sand (up to a point... enough to weigh more than the amount on the riser), then put insulation on top of the sand. Then mount the plywood as subfloor on top of the joists (say, 12" OC), or doubles at 16"OC. The problem I see with this plan is not easily being able to tweak the tightness of the auras' mounting (once they're on, they're enclosed in a box essentially). Any thoughts on this setup, or on how to better do it?

I ALWAYS mount directly to the surface to be energized. I'm glad that Clarence had good results, but the pad under the Tactile is there for a reason, and attenuating the transfer of resonant energy by adding something else between is not correct. Only the fact that we are talking about frequencies under 100 Hz keeps it in the "OK" range. But just "OK".

As for tweaking after the fact, that should never be required because there is only on way to attach Tactiles as far as "Tightness" is concerned. Just enough, and no more. Just enough is:

Using a Drill with a Clutch, set the clutch at something like #5 on a scale of 40, and set one corner until the opposite corner just starts to lift a very little bit. Then screw down the lifted corner. The remaining corners then are screwed down. If you cannot stick your fingernail under the Tactile evenly all around the edge, then that Puppy is TOO TIGHT. If your in doubt, loosen every screw "by hand" until the unit can slightly "wiggle", then hand tighten until just solidly firm. Use ONLY Coarse Threaded 1" Screws. Or 2" ers, then snip or snap off of the protruding points. (Talk about "Tactile Sensations! Ouch!)
Having a length of screw thread that is consistently the same diameter through the Floor is better than one that tapers to a point after just 3/4"


I guess what I'm asking is what would the ideal construction be (with reasonable amount of $$$ on construction resources) for a riser in an HT in your opinion? (I've seen you write about general theory, and a few examples of construction, but not specific to a riser and/or the whole package). Thanks..

2'x8' for a Rear, 2" x 4"s for the Front, or just 2" x 4"s alone for a single platform, framed 16" o.c. Decked with a GOOD, 3/4" Plywood. (B/C Grade minimum...check for a lack of "Voids") Set the Framework on top of 1/2" BlackBoard Sheathing. Decking should be Screwed down aggressively with 1 -5/8" Coarse Threaded Screws. Sand for dampening would be redundant. Just "Over Stuff" the plenum with twice the thickness of Kraft Faced Batt Insulation the particular Joist height would call for. 2" x 4" ers get R-19 at least. 2" x 8" ers get two layers of R-30.

Place NO insulation against the edges of, or behind the tactiles. Period.

Originally posted by MississippiMan
"Boiler Plate" screw down the flooring.
I'm not sure what you mean here... are you implying that there will be a lot of screws holding the plywood down? Typically w/subfloors, you use 6" apart on the edges, and 8" in the "field" (middle), so are you saying it'd be a bit more than that?

Decking should be Screwed down aggressively with 1 -5/8" Coarse Threaded Screws. Sand for dampening would be redundant. Just "Over Stuff" the plenum with twice the thickness of Kraft Faced Batt Insulation the particular Joist height would call for. 2" x 4" ers get R-19 at least. 2" x 8" ers get two layers of R-30.

I'm assuming "aggressively" refers to the "boiler plate"... how is sand redundant? I don't see any other materials that would add significantly to the weight, or is it that it's on the sheathing? In other words, what is the material that makes the sand redundant? Also, any particular reason for faced vs unfaced? (might as well ask, since you specified)

Place NO insulation against the edges of, or behind the tactiles. Period.
How can you insulate twice the thickness as it calls for then? Do you just cut a hole in the insulation for the tactile to "fit in" with some breathing room? Thanks for all of this info, MMan... much appreciated

Weighting down the Platform shouldn't be required, and could over compensate anyway.

Yes, screwing aggressively means a screw every 6" everywhere.

Of course you just use a Utility Knife and cut out a round Hole in the FiberGlas Batt that is 2' larger in circumfrence than the Tactile.

Even with a double dose of insulation, you can tuck the edges down into the sides of the plenums, and the weight of you standing on the Platform will allow you to screw it down.

Another option is to "Toe In" the Riser using 3" screws every 2' that tighten down the frame work down against the Black Board, then carefully backing them out until you see the bottom edge of the Riser just start to lift back up, releive most of the compression against the Sheathing. You can do this by either attaching another piece of "Nailer against the inside perimeter of the Farme and shooting the screws down through that, or as I do, inserting the screws at a 45 degree angle into the perimeter of the Riser Frame and sinking them in until I can see the Riser start to pull down just a bit. Use a level, get it all even, and that's really all you need.

Off to work. Lots to do before my departure to Maui next AM

Great, just as I was thinking -- I just wanted to get confirmation that we were tracking along the same lines...

One question about the toe in screwing... is there a reason you choose this over just screwing straight in from the bottom up (flip the frame over, and screw the sheating straight into the frame)?

Have fun packing/preparing... enjoy the time, sounds like a nice place to be... I can wait for an answer, as I'm in the research phase right now and have plenty of time... :) Thanks again.

Question, I just ordered a pair of Aura pros and need advice on how to wire them with my amp.

The only amp I have that can be used for this is my Samson S1000. 500 watts per channel. This is an ideal setup for me though since my sub runs off the first channel of the Samson. I don't even need to split the sub output, the Samson can push the sub signal out both channels from a single input.

But I don't want to overpower the Auras. If I start with the gain really low and adjust it until it feels right will that be ok? Or is it going to produce too much power no matter what?

Assuming it can work, how should I wire them? Series, parallel, what?

As for installation I'm putting them in my loveseat. I flipped it over last night and found that it's actually built very well. Lots of bracing and it's a heavy sucker. I'll post pics later for advice on exactly where to mount them, there's several places that look good to me.

WallyWest,

If you have to use the existing amp... be very careful...

You might find that when you use the "built-in" combine feature that only one volume control would control both channels. Or, it might let you control them separately.

Yes, you could turn the one channel gain down real low. You realize that you only need probably 10 - 20 watts per shaker for tons of shaking effect. Read back through this thread and you will see that said again, and again. You will risk blowing up the shakers if the gain is set too high accidentally. If the gain control is inaccessible, and you have no kids/visitors/ex-friends who will turn the control up without knowing its effect, then you are probably safe.

For two shakers, wire them in series. That would result in an 8 ohm load to the amplifier.

Personally, there are sub-amplifiers from Partsexpress (An AVS sponsor) and others (mcmelectronics.com has a 150 watt subwoofer amp on their home page for a very very low price) that I would use if I was in your place.

I've purchased from both, and in my opinion, a separate lower powered amp is better for shaker use. A benefit of being separate is that you can always turn it off when it is not appropriate.

Joe L.

J. L. thanks for the advice. That amp on mcmelectronics is a very good price. So good I can't pass it up. Looks like that will be perfect to drive a couple of the Auras.

I agree, IF there's any chance anyone else could touch that amp I wouldn't do it.1 mistake and they will be garbage!!!!!

brickie

hey guys - Tried reading the threads but way to long - Question what is the best way to hook up the Aura shakers to my Premiere Recliners- I have 8 chairs and it seems that there are various opinions- under the seat,in the arm rest etc-What would be the BEST way to hook up the shakers to my chairs-If this has been answered already please point to the thread- thanks so much Gary

Question what is the best way to hook up the Aura shakers to my Premiere Recliners- I have 8 chairs and it seems that there are various opinions

This is how i did 8 Shakers:

http://www.itprofessionals.tv/Couchnew.jpg

I hope this helps...for the wiring, anyways.
Cheers!
:)

[This is how i did 8 Shakers:]

DejaVue,

What is the wattage on that amp in this setup? I have a 550w Sunfire that I'd like to use in this particular fashion, and don't want to blow my shakers, of course.
Can i ask you what the Ohm rating is for this wiring scheme with eight 50w, 4ohm shakers?

Thanks.

Marty, the above diagram results in an 8 ohm single channel load. You'd need to turn down your amp's gain a ton, and if it were me I'd just get a cheaper 150W amp to power the shakers (unless you're planning on adding more to the eight later).

What is the wattage on that amp in this setup

Marty, it is a single 250 Watt Subwoofer Amp.
As Tim stated, it is a 8 Ohm load.
;)

Marty, it is a single 250 Watt Subwoofer Amp.
As Tim stated, it is a 8 Ohm load.
;)


Deja-vue,

This all seems so familiar......? :D

My recommendations do not coincide with a series option as extensive as what is suggested. I'm not sure from your post if your Sub Amplifier is rated for 4 ohms, but it would be surprising if any Sunfire product designed to accommodate Low Frequency output, and the resulting decrease in impedance that occurs during low passages, would not be continuously stable into a 4 ohm load.

Should that be the case, then you would be best served to wire groups of 2 shakers in Parallel (2 Ohms) then serires 4 groups up to 8 Ohms. This would at least double the power handling of your circuit to twice that of an individual shaker. (25 watts Standard -50 Watts Pro)

Chairs do not require nearly as much output, but what you do send them should be unmitigatably clean and distortion free.

The suggested diagram will work of course, but you will be dividing whatever wattage you do send into the circuit into 8. Let's suppose that's a whopping 50 watts total. Divided by 8, that works out to be just 6.25 watts per shaker at a level where you are NOT placing any or all the drivers in jeopardy. Yet you cannot exceed 50 watts input without risking overdriving any one specific unit. Hardly a very efficent or dependable way to use the Tactiles. (IMO...of course...)

I've stated my particular preference toward wiring in parallel VS Series before, and my concern is rooted in my specfic need to drive material far more resistant than a small plywood plate affixed to the bottom of a Recliner. Such usually requires that I deliver over 100 watts continuous to a 8 tactile array. I do so with impudence, knowing I'm well within the rated power of the tactiles. This is essential because Tactiles placed into sub-flooring, or even under Risers do not suffer replacement as easily as does a overturned chair.

The advice given before via the diagram is of course workable & sound <pun?> and is so because the application will not need the highest level of output. The previously outlined diagram will however cause your circuit to be entirely dependent on just one device. Should one device fail, you'll get Nada shake. That might help as a diagnostic tool, (...no shake...something's wrong...) but it would also destroy your listening pleasure at a time when immediate replacement is not exactly desirable..

Lastly, you could easily use a simple 4 Ohm "L-Pad" Attenuator control on each chair that is within a dual wiring configuration, without affecting the overall impedance of the circuit. But be advised that "L-Pads" maintain a constant impedance and that means they will heat up (dissipate unused wattage) when turned to the "Off" position".

hey thanks for the responses- As far as mounting to the recliners- Should I mount inside the bottom of the arm rest( at floor level)-Or mount a wood bracket across the bottom of the chair and mount the shakers to the bracket OR just attach to the springs on the bottom of the chair- HELP!!!

Stupid question time.

I've got all my equipment, but I'm a bit confused by the amp. I bought a subwoofer amp, one that's meant to be mounted on the sub. I thought these amps were usually mono? Mine has stereo inputs. Now I do have two shakers, but I was planning on wiring them together so they present an 8 ohm load to the amp. I guess I just use one of the two channels on the amp then?

Now, as for connecting this to the shakers. I guess I use one of the two loose wires hanging off the inside of the amp. Doesn't make sense though, this is advertised as a subwoofer amp, so why is it wired like a two channel amp? There should be a mono line level input, but there isn't. There's the typical high level speaker inputs and outputs, and then a bank of line level inputs and outputs, but those are in stereo. And then it appears to be wired for two channels internally.