What AVS category should I post to? The LG LST-3510A is really a unique three-in-one combination and crosses over AVS forum boundaries:

1) Dvd player with DVI-HDTV 720p, 1080i output
2) HDTV DTV Tuner
3) DVI switcher

Existing system
-------------------
Sony HS20 projector with 92" 16:9 Firehawk screen, 60" GWIII rear projection, Momitsu 880 DVI player, Samsung T160 HDTV tuner, Pioneer 47Ai. Note: DVI outputs used, DVI to HDMI cable on order for the Sony HS20.

Critical Reevaluation
-------------------------
The LG Electronics ST-3510A Dvd player caused myself a to perform a critical reassessment of digital video technology. This technology is actually better than what I thought it could be!

Edited update on 12-06-2003: Added 1:1 mapping benifet
Edited update on 12-04-2003: Removed overly cautious section
Edited update on 11-30-2003: See new section *removed*

Hardly anyone here speaks about the quality of MPEG2 decoders. Lots of talk about de-interlacting and up-conversion. But MPEG2 decoder/output quality?

Specifically my findings indicate that the LG-3510 greatly reduces MPEG2 artifacts, including block noise as compared to my existing equipment. Block noise is a somewhat clear crunched cellophane you see all to often in digital video. I find this very irritating!

DVD and HDTV Playback
---------------------------
The following observations are true for both Dvd and HDTV television pictures. The LST-3510 improves upon my existing equipment in the following areas:

1) sharper but NOT artificially so (like the bad-boy Samsung 931)
2) improved natural detail
3) transparency - the look through quality of reduced MPEG II artifacts
4) sharp and natural as a tack. I use 720p for Dvd playback and 1080i for HDTV. ( I must still manually switch this on the front panel)
5) refinement!

Note: these observations are just my subjective opinion. I await confirmation from my fellow AVS forum members.

Dvd Color Quality
------------------
The Dvd color quality has changed too. But I'm not able to state anything but maybe less is better. For DVD the color bandwidth is a lot less than the luminance bandwidth. Perhaps my existing MPEG2 decoders overstate the color and obscure the luminance detail?

Because its picture quality refinement, I place the 3510 ahead of the Momitsu 880 and Bravo D1. Other than the player making a little bit of noise occasionally, I find NO reliability or operational issues. We have been delivered! In fact quality appears first rate...

DVI Switch
-----------
The LG-3510 ingeniously solves the common DVI switching dilemma between DVI player and HDTV receiver. No 250-800 dollar switcher needed. Only one expensive DVI cable required instead of three. A couch potatoes dream!

HDTV DTV Tuner
--------------------
No more noise when viewing the unused analog NTSC tuner. The 3510 does not contain one. The unit is similar to the Sony 300 and Zenith 520 except there is NO Direct-TV satellite tuner. Selectable variable/automatic and fixed resolution output decoding. Nice.

As for the picture quality: Even though the Jay Leno show looked great before it looks incredible now. Makes the eves pop out of your head. Motion is much clearer and natural. Sony 300 and Zenith 520 owners should be able to attest to this!

Comparison with Samsung T160 HDTV Receiver
---------------------------------------------------
Once you see better you know it. The Samsung 160 picture quality is much coarser/grainer and lacks the refinement of the 3510.

Who is LG Electronics?
------------------------
They make the Sony 200-300 and Zenith 520 HDTV receivers. They look similar to this unit.
LG just begun to distribute their own products here. Distributed by Zenith. Do they own Zenith?

Hope that is enough for now. I bought mine locally with a 20% discount with no sales tax.


12-06-03 Update
--------------------
If you read through the subsequent posts, this thread appears to have launched into "outerspace". But seriously a good heated discussion can reveal much useful information and clear up misconceptions. Hopefully everyone will benefit once the issues get sorted out. Which is the also purpose of this update.

In my original review, I had mentioned that I was using the new Sony HS20 front projector. The HS20 contains a performance enhancing mode which allows for much improved picture quality. Here at AVS forum this effect is commonly referred to as "1:1 pixel mapping".

For home theater 1:1 pixel mapping makes a dramatic improvement in black level, contrast, color quality and sharpness. Anyone would notice the difference. Its like engaging the after-burners a jet fighter. Or total eclipse, the difference being almost night and day. In summary, the gain in performance is exhilarating to behold.

Some home theater digital displays devices allow for 1:1 mapping. CRT never perform true digital 1:1 mapping as they scan in the analog domain. Most expensive DLP and LCD front projectors include it. Most rear projection displays could allow for it, but the designers have shamelessly removed it.

Computer desktop monitors always include it. Otherwise the text would be distorted and blurry. Essentially 1:1 mapping requires that every pixel pass-thru the display device and remain untouched its scaling circuitry.

At this point in time in the technology curve, full res HDTV 1920*1080i displays are just not here yet. But 1280*720 HDTV displays are common-place.

So what does this all have to do with this LG 3510 Dvd player review?

My review used the combination of the 3510 and the new Sony HS-20. I selected DVI output. I selected 1280*720 resolution. I set the HS-20 to pass-thru/1:1/ computer input.

I didn't know it at the time but I, for the first time, had just met all of the conditions necessary to engage perfect digital 1:1 mapping. I wrote the review based upon this combination. Anyone would notice a huge increase in quality, especially with a 92" projector capable of displaying tack sharp images.

In the future reviewers should state if they are using digital 1:1 mapping mode.

Let not any of this distract from the fact that the 3510 is the best reasonably priced 1280*720p (1:1 capable) player on the market.

Very interesting evaluation. Thanks for posting the info.

John

Can you output DVD via the DVI output? I.e. like the Bravo D1 ...?

Have you tried the RGBHV 720p output? This would be of interest to FP CRT users.

Gary

How is it with DVD lipsync?

I'm in. Where or how do I find it locally? Where are you locally?

Softenger,

Thanks for great review. Have you tried playing a Disney movie thought the DVI output,and if so did it play at 720p or 1080i ?


Thanks again,

RCFOSTER

Although the 3510A will output 720p/1080i through component and RGB for the HDTV OTA and QAM tuners, for DVD, 720p/1080i is only available from the DVI output, and only with an HDCP compliant display.
Component DVD is limited to 480i/p. There is no RGB output at all for DVD.

LG owns the LG, Zenith, and Goldstar brands. They are based in South Korea and have only this past year began marketing their LG branded product in retail channels in North America. They are expanding their LG line in to just about every product category, including some new ones such as HTIB with wireless rear speakers. Some interesting plans on their 2004 lineup...

LG have been selling good quality, low cost electronics in the UK for many years.

I wonder if the 3510A is available here?

Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
and only with an HDCP compliant display.

Oh crap. Well, I knew this would eventually become a limitation with my LPX-500.

*bump*

Looking for observations on 1) lipsync, and 2) 720p via DVI on copyprotected DVDs

No lipsync problem at all. Yes you can get 720P or 1080i via DVI on copyprotected DVD, I've tried quite a few Disney Movies.

Love the HDTuner 720p DVI output to my DWIN TV3, noticeably more details and smoother picture than my Mits. HD5.

Where did you get it?

They are based in South Korea and have only this past year began marketing their LG branded product in retail channels in North America.

Are you sure about this? I've have an LG CD-ROM that is at least 6 years old. I've also seen LG televisions on the shelves for several years.

Originally posted by Axatax
Are you sure about this? I've have an LG CD-ROM that is at least 6 years old. I've also seen LG televisions on the shelves for several years.

My statement should have only pertained to audio and video gear. My wife has an LG cell-phone. Thanks for the correction!

could anyone say what the price is?

could anyone say what the price is?

$599


But my question is, how much better is a DVI DVD player going to look on an HDTV set with DVI versus a standard progressive scan DVD player?

mr_spectre:
Welcome to AVS Forum! I suggest that you go look at the review of the Bravo D1 in a recent Widescreen Review (two months back, I believe). Aside from the actual review, there is an excellent discussion of the relative merits of DVI output for different display technologies - the benefits are NOT all the same just as HDTVs are not all the same. Some technologies like the DLPs benefit greatly, others less so.

Anyone know LG's web URL? Maybe they have a list of US dealers.

I've located one dealer so far in the San Francisco Bay Area but I don't expect them to offer any discounts. They do six figure home theater installations and sell a little "junk" on the side. When I called them this afternoon they said they just got the LG 3510a and had it connected to the new Loewe plasma.

Any chance LG will sell through one or more of the big chains?

Originally posted by mr__spectre
$599


But my question is, how much better is a DVI DVD player going to look on an HDTV set with DVI versus a standard progressive scan DVD player?
Short answer, for displays that offer a complete digital path without any analog conversion, i.e. most digital displays, the difference is very significant.

See threads - DVI, a practical guide, and Testing .. in my signature.

product page on LG's web site (http://www.lge.com/catalog/prodmodeldetail?actType=search&page=1&modelCategoryId=CTG1000472&categoryId=CTG1000442&parentId=ROOT&modelPrefix=40AVSD&globalCode=LST-3510A&globalSuffix=000000&model=NOTHING)

Originally posted by jonw
product page on LG's web site (http://www.lge.com/catalog/prodmodeldetail?actType=search&page=1&modelCategoryId=CTG1000472&categoryId=CTG1000442&parentId=ROOT&modelPrefix=40AVSD&globalCode=LST-3510A&globalSuffix=000000&model=NOTHING)
Thanks. :)

A local B/M dealer has six on order soon to arrive.

Originally posted by softengr

DVI Switch
-----------
The LG-3510 ingeniously solves the common DVI switching dilemma between DVI player and HDTV receiver. No 250-800 dollar switcher needed. Only one expensive DVI cable required instead of three. A couch potatoes dream!



I'm don't want to rain on any parades and I actually hope I'm blind. I read the manual for the 3510 and looked at the back panel..and there is only '1' DVI port. When I heard DVI switch, I was hoping to see two DVI ports on the back...one input and one output with the third input being internally coupled to the DVD player. At least for me, I will be forced into a proprietary digital box from my cable provider (insight communications) in order to get high def. Therefore, I if I want to use their DVI output...I'll be needing a real switch box *snap*

-tReP

How do the movies look as compared to the HD931?

I really am etting frustrated with it and am looking for something new

Originally posted by RAVEN56706
How do the movies look as compared to the HD931?

I really am getting frustrated with it and am looking for something new


(In Bill Clinton voice) "I feel your pain!"

I have been working with the production model of this piece for the past two weeks. I've tried it on a Marantz Vp12S3, a Sony VLPHS20, VPL400Q, KV34XBR910, KDF60XBR950, Pioneer PRO1000HDI, and several LG, Runco, and Fujitsu plasmas, as well as Mitsubishi RPTVs.

As stated above, Disney releases disable the scaler and only 480p is available on the outputs. However, all other tested commercial DVDs output at any selected resolution, including 720p and 1080i, on Component, DVI, and RGB outputs.

On the fixed pixel devices, the 720p output is preferable. The picture is quite sharp, with excellent color and no noticable artifacts or ringing. Edge enhancement is not an issue at any image size.

The Mits RPTVs and the VPL400q (which does not display 480p/720p) really loved the 1080i output.

DVDs have never looked better on any of these devices. Since the scaler (an OPlus Rembrandt?) works from the pro level (straight digital) the cost-to-performance ratio is way out of wack.

The ATSC/Quam HD tuner is a nice bonus. Pictures from rooftop antenna and Comcast cable were both excellent - better than any Gen3/4 tuners I've seen. Maybe these Gen5 ones are the real deal. Of course, since LG holds the ATSC 8VSB patents, the tuner performance should be no surprise.

Actual street price here in Sacramento is below the stated 599. This player is for real. PRO Group members and Best Buy stores will have access to the line next summer. Until then, only the LG retail partners will be supplied (or so they say).

There is also an ATSC/NTSC 120 gig HD PVR due to ship shortly, using the free TV Guide programming grid.

us.lge.com/products/models/hdtv_receiver_combo_index.html
this is the url for the 3510. I think they sell direct.

Originally posted by AVgod
I have been working with the production model of this piece for the past two weeks.
It sounds great What is your relationship with LG?

Originally posted by AVgod

The ATSC/Quam HD tuner is a nice bonus. Pictures from rooftop antenna and Comcast cable were both excellent - better than any Gen3/4 tuners I've seen. Maybe these Gen5 ones are the real deal. Of course, since LG holds the ATSC 8VSB patents, the tuner performance should be no surprise.


Can you elaborate ? What channels can you receive from Comcast , just analog or digital as well ? What exactly does "ATSC/Quam" imply ? Is there a FAQ I should read :)

I had one on order but now decided to just get Cable to save some money and get a few new channels(Comcast has all the ota stuff in HD here).

Though i'm curious why they don't sell the dvd player as a seprate, going to force me to get a Bravo!

I have no relationship with LG. I know their people and I'm currently playing with their products. I do this for a lot of companies - spoils of an ill-spent lifetime teaching people and companies about AV technology.

The 3510 has a Clear Quam tuner, meaning it can receive unscrambled cable HD signals. Cable transmits its HD differently than do over-the-air broadcasters. Over-the-air uses 8VSB modulation and cable uses quadrature amplitude modulation (called Quam or QAM). In Sacramento ABC, NBC, ESPN and INHD are available currently. HBO and Showtime are up but scrambled, so the 3510 ignores them. Every local station comes in through the over-the-air antenna ( we are fully digital and mostly HD up here). Since it has no NTSC section, it can not receive normal cable channels, only the HD ones.

AVgod - I have comcast as well. With this box do I need to subscribe (ie pay the rental fee for HD box) to get comcast's HD or do I just need digital service and this box ? It looks like I get the same HD channels as you so hopefully it will bahave the same.

If you have digital level service, no subscription is necessary.

I don't believe you need digital service, at least not in Chicago, to receive in the clear QAM. Other threads have discussed this issue.

AVgod, do you have any quality comparisons with other DVI DVD players?

I, for one, can't wait for the first review of "Bravo D1 vs. LG 3510." That's going to be a very interesting thread ;)

Originally posted by AVgod
I have been working with the production model of this piece for the past two weeks. I've tried it on a Marantz Vp12S3, a Sony VLPHS20, VPL400Q, KV34XBR910, KDF60XBR950, Pioneer PRO1000HDI, and several LG, Runco, and Fujitsu plasmas, as well as Mitsubishi RPTVs.

As stated above, Disney releases disable the scaler and only 480p is available on the outputs. However, all other tested commercial DVDs output at any selected resolution, including 720p and 1080i, on Component, DVI, and RGB outputs. ...
So what is Disney doing that is different then the other studios (sorry if this has been asked before, but this doesn't sound right to me)?

Don't most commercial DVDs use CSS, so LG is "breaking the rules" by outputing >480p on the component outputs?

AVgod,

When you were testing the DVI output with the Disney DVDs, you tried them on HDCP compliant displays?

Thanks,
John Flegert

Originally posted by AVgod
As stated above, Disney releases disable the scaler and only 480p is available on the outputs.

On the fixed pixel devices, the 720p output is preferable. The picture is quite sharp, with excellent color and no noticeable artifacts or ringing. Edge enhancement is not an issue at any image size.

The Mits RPTVs and the VPL400q (which does not display 480p/720p) really loved the 1080i output.


The LG-3150 DVI output works with the Sony HS-20 DVI input connector for Disney disks for 480p, 720p and 1080i.

I have seen the HDCP warning message though at times but only when fast loading.
Try slowing down when initially loading the disk as the HDCP needs to communicate between the player and the display.

I will connect to my GWIII DVI input this evening and report the results.

In any event it "sounds like" people need to start making personal backup copies so their purchased movies will play back with no fuss.

In Sacramento, the HD channels are up-band, next to the music channels. Comcast puts a low-pass on the tap of non-digital subscribers, trapping those frequencies out. Digital service removes the trap, making the HD channels accessable on the house line.

Every DVI player I've seen looked pretty good. That's because you avoid using at least one transducer (a D/A convertor) and often more than one (if you have a fixed pixel display). Also, digital signals are more robust when they're in copper than are analog signals, so the quality of wire and shielding and termination and dielectric (etc.) is much less important and they are imprevious to RF and other air-borne maladies.

That having been said, the 3510 takes a big step forward because of its scaler, which works on the digital read right after coming off the optical transducer. Virtually all other scalers work in the analog domain or wait until the progressive layer has been de-interlaced by the player (as you know, the recorded signal is progressive, but virtually all players first deinterlace it to 480i (for the composite and Y/C outs) and then relace it to create 480p - two more processing layers - never a good thing.)

AVGod-

Is the Zenith DVB318 DVD DVI-HTCP player going to use the same "innards" as the 3510A? Any idea on its release date? Have you had a chance to test one out? Thanks.

P.S. In the HDTV Equipment Forum there are several reports of no problem getting 720p/1080i out thru DVI with Disney DVDs.

AVGod,

I think its the other way around. Most DVDs are encoded interlaced. Infact, the Secrets website mentions the JVC players as having a poor interlaced output because it was based on the poorly deinterlaced signal (thanks to the Mediamatics chipset) instead of directly reading it off the DVD.

AVGod,

I don't suppose we'll ever see it here in the UK? Honestly, the lack of PAL progressive machines available over here is VERY frustrating :(

Originally posted by softengr
I will connect to my GWIII DVI input this evening and report the results.I'm very curious about this setup. I have a 50" GWII and am looking for both an HDTV receiver and DVD player... this looks like it should fit the bill. Please let us know how the Disney disks work on your GWIII.

Thanks.

Originally posted by moeronn
I'm very curious about this setup. I have a 50" GWII and am looking for both an HDTV receiver and DVD player... this looks like it should fit the bill. Please let us know how the Disney disks work on your GWIII.

Thanks.

I tried the following disks with my Sony GWIII, LG-3150 set to 720p using the DVI connections only.

1) Monsters Inc.
2) Toy Story 2
3) Pirates Of The Caribbean
4) Finding Nemo

Turn off power, unplugged between disks, alternated between disks, fast forwarded, reversed, film-to-disk menu and back, 3150 set-up and back. Many combinations. Spent an hour testing.

**** NOT ONE ERROR OF ANY KIND *****

I've owned the unit 5 days. When I first got it I did see the HDCP text screen.

Not very consistent? But true. A lot of electronic s gear behaves better after a break-in period.

Don't forget the software is initializing the ram and flash for the first time too. Then there is the region code too. A problem in one area can cause the HDCP communication to become starved. Like the servo stacking up interrupts...

IMHO the HDCP copy protection appears to have been properly designed by Sony and LG.

Make sure the DVD cable is firmly connected.

I've got a feeling that this subject is going to get beat to death at AVS forum. It could spread like a virus.

so does anyone know a retailer in california (sf bay area) that carries this?

thanks

vk

Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
In the HDTV Equipment Forum there are several reports of no problem getting 720p/1080i out thru DVI with Disney DVDs.
Are you refering to "other" DVI capable DVD players?" I still see no evidence that the LST-3510a isn't crippled as far as Disney type transfers (what ever that means) are concerned.

Is this a firmware fixible problem or is LG the only one following the rules?

For me this is on point:

So what is Disney doing that is different then the other studios (sorry if this has been asked before, but this doesn't sound right to me)?

Don't most commercial DVDs use CSS, so LG is "breaking the rules" by outputing >480p on the component outputs?

AVgod,

When you were testing the DVI output with the Disney DVDs, you tried them on HDCP compliant displays?

Thanks,
John Flegert

Originally posted by vksf01
so does anyone know a retailer in california (sf bay area) that carries this?

thanks

vk
Century Stereo
San Jose
Laserland
San Jose

Any online dealers ? LG says there are no dealers with 100 miles of NH :(

Originally posted by AVgod
That having been said, the 3510 takes a big step forward because of its scaler, which works on the digital read right after coming off the optical transducer. Virtually all other scalers work in the analog domain or wait until the progressive layer has been de-interlaced by the player (as you know, the recorded signal is progressive, but virtually all players first deinterlace it to 480i (for the composite and Y/C outs) and then relace it to create 480p - two more processing layers - never a good thing.)
The 480p > 480i extra step is news to me but I only know what I read here. :)

It seems to me that whatever improvements LG's DVD player have made they are negated by the apparent fact that Disney DVDs are not handled (DVI 720p output) in the same way that other DVI capable DVD players play them. 480p over DVI just doesn't do it for me. :(

It would help to know why the LG DVD player has this limitation.

Originally posted by softengr
I tried the following disks with my Sony GWIII, LG-3150 set to 720p using the DVI connections only.

1) Monsters Inc.
2) Toy Story 2
3) Pirates Of The Caribbean
4) Finding Nemo

Turn off power, unplugged between disks, alternated between disks, fast forwarded, reversed, film-to-disk menu and back, 3150 set-up and back. Many combinations. Spent an hour testing.

**** NOT ONE ERROR OF ANY KIND *****
This is good news, if I am understanding you correctly. What happens if you dont power off and unplug? Just eject and switch disks?

htwaits - from these tests, it seems like the player does not have problems playing 720P with the Disney DVDs.

Originally posted by htwaits
Century Stereo
San Jose
Laserland
San Jose

Excellent!

Thanks!

vk

How about dealers in the Long Beach, CA area? Found one place in thousand Oaks, but they are a bit far and wouldn't give any price info over the phone.

Originally posted by rajdawar
AVGod,

I think its the other way around. Most DVDs are encoded interlaced. Infact, the Secrets website mentions the JVC players as having a poor interlaced output because it was based on the poorly deinterlaced signal (thanks to the Mediamatics chipset) instead of directly reading it off the DVD.

Raj

Nope. All DVDs start with a progressive scan layer. That's the original codec which we selected during the implimentation phase. Then almost all convert the read layer to interlaced. At this stage it's pretty easy, since the coding was structured with this in mind. Remember, all first gen players were interlaced. The Faroudja was the first player to read and output the pro layer directly. Many thousands of dollars. Now we just use a cheap lacing chip.

Originally posted by vksf01
so does anyone know a retailer in california (sf bay area) that carries this?

thanks

vk

VK

Your closest HTSA dealer is Paradyme Sound and Vision in Sacramento. They don't sell on the web but they have a website.

Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
AVGod-

Is the Zenith DVB318 DVD DVI-HTCP player going to use the same "innards" as the 3510A? Any idea on its release date? Have you had a chance to test one out? Thanks.

P.S. In the HDTV Equipment Forum there are several reports of no problem getting 720p/1080i out thru DVI with Disney DVDs.

Unknown. The LG guys say no, but no prepros have shipped and things change. I'll see it at CES so if no one updates before then, I'll post what I find out.

Originally posted by moeronn
How about dealers in the Long Beach, CA area? Found one place in thousand Oaks, but they are a bit far and wouldn't give any price info over the phone.

LG has no mail order issues so dealers can ship to you if you send them a check. I know that my local HTSA member, Paradyme Sound and Vision in Sacramento, has mailed a few already. Their floor pricing is a c-note cheaper than the pricing I've seen quoted here.

Originally posted by Diarmuid
AVGod,

I don't suppose we'll ever see it here in the UK? Honestly, the lack of PAL progressive machines available over here is VERY frustrating :( ]

LG says they have Euro versions in the works. Still, after all those years of your TVs looking better than ours (except for that annoying field flicker) it's nice to be on the other side.

moeronn.................The T.O. store does not have stock yet. I checked.
The units are on order.

John

Originally posted by jrannison
moeronn.................The T.O. store does not have stock yet. I checked.
The units are on order.

John

Paradyme in Sacramento has stock

My Bad.

My initial tests using DVI were with an in-wall cable. I got a new one and jumpered the 3510 onto several DVI projectors and am happy to report that Disney titles displayed just fine at 720p.

Not having kids, the Disney stuff was not a big deal to me so on the first test I just shrugged and moved on. After reading the following threads, though, I went to Hollywood Video, borrowed a bunch of titles and took things more seriously.

Disneyites rejoice. The 3510 will upscale on DVI with Disney sources.

Quote" As stated above, Disney releases disable the scaler and only 480p is available on the outputs. However, all other tested commercial DVDs output at any selected resolution, including 720p and 1080i, on Component, DVI, and RGB outputs."


I thought this player would only do 480p on component and that you needed DVI (HDCP) for 720p and 1080. Is this the case? I would really like a player like this that would work with my Panny PT-L300U

Originally posted by AVgod
My initial tests using DVI were with an in-wall cable. I got a new one and jumpered the 3510 onto several DVI projectors and am happy to report that Disney titles displayed just fine at 720p.

Not having kids, the Disney stuff was not a big deal to me so on the first test I just shrugged and moved on. After reading the following threads, though, I went to Hollywood Video, borrowed a bunch of titles and took things more seriously.

Disneyites rejoice. The 3510 will upscale on DVI with Disney sources.
While you were at Hollywood Video I composed a very long message directed at getting at the "Disney" feature. When I finally posted it you had already let the air out of the balloon.

Thanks for subjecting yourself to "Disney" for us.

I do have another question for both you and Softeng. How did you determine that the display device is receiving 720p from the LST and not converting 480p to 720p itself?

I am also in the market for a dvd player with DVI, as I should be receiving my Z2 anyday now. I hear many things about picture quality of a dvd player, but what about the sound. I have a pretty good audio setup, but I was wondering how well this LG sounds and will it decode all the latest surround modes. I just don't feel like dropping 2 large on a 5900.

Thanks,

Ken

Does this player have Contrast & Brightness controls? It is very important to me & others because my display is the Sharp 10000 & it won't allow me to controll the contrast or brightness through DVI.

Thanks
Chris

AVgod,

You be da Man baby. ;)

Thanks for confirming the Disney compatability. I'm hoping to pick up one of these units and watching plenty of movies, including "subjecting myself" to several hours of Disney ;)

No brightness and contrast controls.

There are 5 different VIDEO MODE though for film/video material, haven't had time to compare the differences.

AVgod or softengr, can either of you comment on whether this machine supports AR control over its DVI connection, so that 4:3 material will display unstretched and full screen on a 4:3 screen? I believe both the Samsung DVD-931 and the Denon DVD-5900 have a problem in this regard. Thanks.

Originally posted by Grampa
AVgod or softengr, can either of you comment on whether this machine supports AR control over its DVI connection, so that 4:3 material will display unstretched and full screen on a 4:3 screen? I believe both the Samsung DVD-931 and the Denon DVD-5900 have a problem in this regard. Thanks.

I can never answer all questions. But for me the 3150 generates 4:3 pictures properly, unlike the poorly designed 931. Your monitor also plays an important role here too.

Originally posted by htwaits
How did you determine that the display device is receiving 720p from the LST and not converting 480p to 720p itself?

The 3150 displays the output rez on its front panel. The Sony HS-20 displays the resolution in the menu. The GWIII only displays it in the service menu.

Originally posted by AVgod
Raj

Nope. All DVDs start with a progressive scan layer. That's the original codec which we selected during the implimentation phase. Then almost all convert the read layer to interlaced. At this stage it's pretty easy, since the coding was structured with this in mind. Remember, all first gen players were interlaced. The Faroudja was the first player to read and output the pro layer directly. Many thousands of dollars. Now we just use a cheap lacing chip.

Not all early players were incapable of progressive output. PC decoders for instance were doing this, even in the earliest implementations. When a DVD is properly encoded and flagged, progressive output is actually nearly trivial.

DVD's were all generally intended for 30fps interlaced playback, but the Main Layer/Main Profile of MPEG2 allows them to encode progressively and set a flag so that the decoder knows to interlace the content on playback.

Thankfully, most films use this progressive mode of encoding, which is easily recognized by progressive DVD players to produce a nice clean non-interlaced image. Note that ALL DVD players are reading the same data. Most early consumer players were simply designed to be hooked up only to interlaced monitors so they always played back interlaced.

Faroudja's big contribution to this field was a method for deinterlacing video content, as well as misflagged content, so that (intentionally or unintentionally) interlaced content would look far better on a progressive display.

Originally posted by AVgod
My Bad.

My initial tests using DVI were with an in-wall cable. I got a new one and jumpered the 3510 onto several DVI projectors and am happy to report that Disney titles displayed just fine at 720p.

Not having kids, the Disney stuff was not a big deal to me so on the first test I just shrugged and moved on. After reading the following threads, though, I went to Hollywood Video, borrowed a bunch of titles and took things more seriously.

Disneyites rejoice. The 3510 will upscale on DVI with Disney sources.

AVgod,
I find your mid-course corrections troublesome to say the least. I am not impressed.

While I am not out to prevent you from building a fan club, I am against the posting of false information without good reason. If you really were as experienced and competent as you claim, this embarrassing incident would not have occurred.

By their postings, other members have noticed this too. Anyone would be confused!

lighten up, dude. avgod's just trying to help out.

AvGod, looks like you'll have to change your name to AvDemiGod.

Originally posted by softengr
AVgod,
I find your mid-course corrections troublesome to say the least. I am not impressed.

While I am not out to prevent you from building a fan club, I am against the posting of false information without good reason. If you really were as experienced and competent as you claim, this embarrassing incident would not have occurred.

By their postings, other members have noticed this too. Anyone would be confused!

softengr,

Everyone makes mistakes -- give the guy a break. In your last several posts, you keep referring to the unit in question as a "3150" when I thought we were discussing the LST-3510A (shortened to 3510) -- I'm sure that's not helping the confusion any. Everyone makes mistakes...

or AV-I-Once-Was-A-God :D

Originally posted by AVgod
Since it has no NTSC section, it can not receive normal cable channels, only the HD ones.

According to LG's site the 3510a has:

"Enhanced Connectivity Receives ATSC,NTSC,QAM and HDTV
signals and connects to HDTV and analog displays and other
devices via component,s-video,DVI and composite jacks."

and furthermore:

"Today LG ’s line of set-top boxes receive ATSC,NTSC,DIRECTV and over-the-air HDTV signals."

Can we get verification on the NTSC capabilities?

I also don't think the QAM and ATSC support would be limited to HD signals only, but that SD should work as well, no?

I am thinking of upgrading from my Bravo D1, but need some hard facts.

softeng, have you done any comparisons of the 3510 with the D1? If so, what is your current thinking?

Can we also somehow get concrete info on what MPEG2 decoder and what scaler are being used? The Oplus Rembrandt would be a very interesting choice, but I'd like verification on that.

any chance they will release a dvd only player that performs basically the same?

I live in Canada so I doubt we'd get it (this 3510 or a dvd only model) here.:( I want a DVI player BAD but have no desire ot get the d1 or whatever other models that are a little wiggy. I jsut want a dvi player with great PQ and is reliable.

AvGod, any luck with the 3510 connected to a Sammy DLP ?

I just got my 3510 this week and I think I have a DVI handshake problem w/my Sammy DLP. Every time I power-up, the 3510 displays "AUTO DVI" on the front panel, then sets the DVI output to 480p. I can manually change it to 720p using the front panel buttons (not w/remote) but when I power-off then back on, I get the AUTO VDI + 480p again.

It's becoming very annoying to have to change it manually every time I turn the 3510A on. Same thing happens if I leave the 3510A on but let the Sammy shut completely down. LG calls this their "EZDVI" routine that is supposed to identify the display's possible DVI settings as well as the best DVI setting, which should be 720p for a Sammy DLP.

I have seen AUTO DVI mentioned within a Sony HD300 thread and with the "guts" of the Sony, Zenith, and LG products originating from the same chipsets, this is probably the same "feature".

At a minimum, I would like to be able to disable the EZDVI feature so my 3510A will stay LOCKED at 720p. Anyone with suggestions ?

Ken

Ken,
Go to page 19 in the user's manual for instructions on how to do this.
If this still doesn't fix it then you may indeed have an incompatibility problem. Hope this helps.
Charles

cpcat, I've done the page 19 steps. It will set DVI 720p, but when I turn the unit off, then back on, the AUTO DVI handshake changes it to 480p.

Ken

Ken,
Sounds like there may be an incompatibility here. My unit is on order and
I'll post back on the results with my GWIII. I guess one option for you would be to leave the unit powered up. It only uses 30 w I think. I normally leave my front end powered anyway unless I'm out of town or during a storm.
Charles

cpcat, the same problem occurs if I turn the TV off for awhile and then turn it back on - the DVI connection wakes up and goes through the handshake routine again.

Ken

Originally posted by softengr
The 3150 displays the output rez on its front panel. The Sony HS-20 displays the resolution in the menu. The GWIII only displays it in the service menu.
Thanks. I assume "3150" is a typo of "3510". :)

Originally posted by softengr
I can never answer all questions. But for me the 3150 generates 4:3 pictures properly, unlike the poorly designed 931. Your monitor also plays an important role here too. I have a NEC HT1000, which does have good AR controls, but to display all formats properly, the AR must be adjustable from the player as well as from the projector. If I play 4:3 material from my Bravo D1 and keep the output at 16:9, the HT1000 will display that material in a frame smaller than my screen; zooming to fill the screen will affect the image quality.

I checked out the user's manual on LG's website, and the 3150 does appear to have quite a lot of AR control using DVI.

Originally posted by htwaits
Thanks. I assume "3150" is a typo of "3510". :)
Yes. I do lose the details at times especially early in the morning...

What MAY be causing initial problems w/Disney discs on the 3510A is that they have coding, in addition to CSS, which prevents its DVDs from being played on Region Free players. Those with Region Free players have to reset the Player to Region 1 to watch Disney DVDs.

Perhaps this extra protection in Disney DVDs causes the 3510A to initially say 480p only over DVI until the 3510A and display device complete the DVI handshake.

Originally posted by eameres
According to LG's site the 3510a has:

"Enhanced Connectivity Receives ATSC,NTSC,QAM and HDTV
signals and connects to HDTV and analog displays and other
devices via component,s-video,DVI and composite jacks."

and furthermore:

"Today LG ?s line of set-top boxes receive ATSC,NTSC,DIRECTV and over-the-air HDTV signals."

Can we get verification on the NTSC capabilities?

I also don't think the QAM and ATSC support would be limited to HD signals only, but that SD should work as well, no?

I am thinking of upgrading from my Bravo D1, but need some hard facts.

Reading the first post of this thread should clear up the confusion.

Don't think NTSC. Think Digital (DTV) and High Definition Television (HDTV). The 3510a it probably the first product that does NOT contain the old-fashioned ANALOG NTSC tuner. It can receive all of the new DIGITAL broadcast tv signals only as mandated by the FCC. Some are low resolution 4:3 aspect signals and other are full 16:9 aspect HDTV.

I connect to a antenna located in my attic which is pointed to the local television transmission hill.

The 3510a has no DirecTV capability. Other LG products do.

Since I purposely don't have cable I have no comment except to say cable DTV and HDTV transmissions are a BIG messy headache for the consumer.

Originally posted by eameres
According to LG's site the 3510a has:

"Enhanced Connectivity Receives ATSC,NTSC,QAM and HDTV
signals and connects to HDTV and analog displays and other
devices via component,s-video,DVI and composite jacks."

and furthermore:

"Today LG ’s line of set-top boxes receive ATSC,NTSC,DIRECTV and over-the-air HDTV signals."

The brochure on LG's website clearly states that the LST-3510A "receives ATSC, NTSC, QAM and HDTV," and the manual shows it connecting to either a cable or an off-air antenna. I have found nothing about receiving satellite signals. Wouldn't satellite require a different type of receiver?

Softengr, I had not read your last post when I composed mine. Are you saying that this machine will definitely NOT tune standard VHF channels, i.e., 4,5,7, etc?

Originally posted by Grampa
Wouldn't satellite require a different type of receiver?
Yes

Originally posted by Grampa
Softengr, I had not read your last post when I composed mine. Are you saying that this machine will definitely NOT tune standard VHF channels, i.e., 4,5,7, etc?

This is a transition period for television broadcasters. They transmit both analog and digital signal right now. Analog transmissions will be discontinued sometime in the future.

Can someone please answer how this dvd player looks on the 34xbr800 or 910?

I ready to order but want to know how it looks.

Please...

Originally posted by softengr
This is a transition period for television broadcasters. They transmit both analog and digital signal right now. Analog transmissions will be discontinued sometime in the future.
So is this a Yes or No answer to Grampa's question?
Are you saying that this machine will definitely NOT tune standard VHF channels, i.e., 4,5,7, etc?
Thanks,
John Flegert

Specifications page 60 of the manual indicates: "Channel Coverage Terrestrial:2-69, Cable:1-135"

I have put a call into LG (Zenith) for conformation.

John

I have a 3510A and the only over-the-air signals it will pick-up are the new "digital" transmissions. It won't pick-up anything that your 10-yr old TV picks up with rabbit ear antennas. Regarding connecting this box to your existing cable service, you will only pick-up HD-like "digital" channels. I tried it with my Comcast (Dallas) and it only locked on to the "digital" music channels. So even though NTSC is quoted above, the 3510A will not tune in NTSC signals. If Comcast adds unscrambled HD signals later (ESPN, etc) I should be able to tune those, but I would have to use an A-B switch to chose between the cable source and attic HD antenna (3510A only has 1 COAX input).

Ken

Originally posted by kenhdtv
I tried it with my Comcast (Dallas) and it only locked on to the "digital" music channels. So even though NTSC is quoted above, the 3510A will not tune in NTSC signals. If Comcast adds unscrambled HD signals later (ESPN, etc) I should be able to tune those, but I would have to use an A-B switch to chose between the cable source and attic HD antenna (3510A only has 1 COAX input).

Ken

Someone (AVGog or softengr ?) mentioned that they were able to get Comcast HD channels (everything buy HMO & Showtime) with the box because they were unscrambled. Ken - Do you have digital service from Comcast ? Can you check to see if you get HD channels ?

Ken......Thanks for the info. I ran a search in the manual for NTSC and no such designation.
They only refer to DTV.
I am surprised that the FCC allows units to not support NTSC, being we are still in the transition stage of broadcasting.

John

Although the manual does not mention NTSC, the company's brochure expressly states that the 3510 receives NTSC signals. Ken, I would bet that the unit does indeed "pick up" these signals; it simply does not tune them. I can only assume it passes those signals to the next device down the chain, much the way my satellite receiver passes signals through to my VCR, which in turn passes them through to my projector and to other TVs. When I tune a regular TV to channel 3, I can receive either the satellite or the VCR signal, depending upon which one is turned on. Channel selection is then controlled by the satellite or VCR tuner. The satellite tuner "receives" the NTSC signals, but tunes only the satellite signals.

Anyone try this with a CRT projector yet? Or use the RGB(VGA) output? Comments?

Bill

The manual does mention that the "Autotune" only seeks DTV, that may imply it can manually be set to the NTSC frequencies????

What happens if the cable co puts HD NBC on channel 465? Can it tune it in assuming it is unencrypted?

I just spoke with a tech. @ Lg and the unit does not receive NTSC broadcasts.

John

Folks -

AVgod indicates that the 3510 does output 720p or 1080i DVD via the RGB outputs. Robert Whitehead has stated repeatedly and unequivocally that it does not.

If anyone is using it with a projector or other display device via an RGBVH connection, could you let us know?

If yes, I gotta get one, and fast. If no, I gotta get a Fusion HD card, and fast.

Thanks - pat

Dozens, I do have digital Comcast in Dallas, but I don't think they are sending any unencrypted HD content yet (ESPN, etc) - I should be able to tune if they add it unencrypted. People in other cities w/Comcast DIgital have been able to tune in ESPN-HD and other unencrypted HD with their LG 3100/3200/3510 boxes. Just nothing in Dallas yet.

Grampa, I think most people would interpret "receives NTSC channels" as "can decode and display NTSC channels". I think LG copied the 3100 manual (which has a NTSC tuner) and used it as a starting point for the 3510 manual so the NTSC statement was an oversight. The 3510A does have a pass-thru COAX ouput connection so you can avoid a signal splitter and just send the pass-thru signal to your VCR to tune in any NTSC channels your HD antenna might pick up.

WDempsey, yes.

Ken

Originally posted by jflegert
So is this a Yes or No answer to Grampa's question?

Thanks,
John Flegert


Softengr, I had not read your last post when I composed mine. Are you saying that this machine will definitely NOT tune standard VHF channels, i.e., 4,5,7, etc?

Yes and NO is the correct answer.

Analog and digital transmission occupy the same VHF/UHF spectrum.

If you want to ask if the LG will receive the older NTSC ANALOG transmissions the answer is NO.

If you want to ask if the LG will receive the newer ATSC DIGITAL transmissions the answer is YES.

Originally posted by tubesguy
Folks -

AVgod indicates that the 3510 does output 720p or 1080i DVD via the RGB outputs. Robert Whitehead has stated repeatedly and unequivocally that it does not.

If anyone is using it with a projector or other display device via an RGBVH connection, could you let us know?

If yes, I gotta get one, and fast. If no, I gotta get a Fusion HD card, and fast.

Thanks - pat

The 3510 will output 1080i, 720p, or 480p via its RGB output - speced in manual (page19) and verified by connection to Pioneer Pro1000HD and Marantz VB12S3 (which has on-screen synch rate readout) RGB input.

Originally posted by wdempsey
What happens if the cable co puts HD NBC on channel 465? Can it tune it in assuming it is unencrypted?

Spectrum location is a non-issue. If the signal is unencrypted and the bandwidth is not tapped out, the tuner will find it, lock it, and load it into memory.

I don't mind some abuse about this screen name. Rest assured it was not of my choosing. I've spent 3 decades avoiding public recognition, unlike some of my famous students ( Joe, I retired to Sacramento, if you're reading this) and I've avoided on-line forums until now.

My current class of students signed me up and forced me on at gun point - arguing that, now that we're in the long awaited grey period prior to system transition, at least the aficionados should have access to the straight dope.

My AV students in the 70's called me Mr. Wizard and, since 1980, I've been called Yoda, but that screen name was taken (so they say) so I got handed this one, since my students think I know everything. I don't, but I've been on every standards committee since Red Book and I wrote the manuals that the whole industry uses to train Audio, Video, and TV, so I do know a few things and have promised to contribute through out this site.

I put truth before image, so if I make a mistake, I correct it and admit to it. The DVI test I did dropped the scan to 480p 4 times in a row, so that's what I reported. I subsequently went back and rechecked using a new connection and immediately posted my correction. Keep in mind, at the time I was not testing for this forum but strictly for the fun of it.

PS. Component connections still drop to 480p on Disney titles and I've run this test using two different wires and several different imagers.

AVgod... Don't let the barbs get to you. Most of the time they are just in fun. Those that aren't should just be ignored. Though, it would be appreciated if you could combine posts rather than posting for each response you are giving. You can copy text and use the Quote feature/codes from the reply screen to add additional quote text.

Thanks and welcome to AVS.

Originally posted by kenhdtv
Grampa, I think most people would interpret "receives NTSC channels" as "can decode and display NTSC channels". I think LG copied the 3100 manual (which has a NTSC tuner) and used it as a starting point for the 3510 manual so the NTSC statement was an oversight. The 3510A does have a pass-thru COAX ouput connection so you can avoid a signal splitter and just send the pass-thru signal to your VCR to tune in any NTSC channels your HD antenna might pick up. I wasn't trying to split hairs, but only to make sense of LG's description and to see how this receiver would fit into my system. I don't have an actual TV in my HT room: my display is a projector. I use a VCR for tuning local analog channels and a satellite receiver with basic service for other channels. My antenna is a set of rabbit ears. Both the VCR and the SAT receiver send signals to other parts of the house over channel 3.

I do have a few questions:

1. Assuming I substitute an HD antenna for the rabbit ears, will that antenna pick up local analog channels just as well?

2. My local analog channels all appear to have available HD alternatives (I'm in Seattle). If the HD antenna doesn't do a good job with analog channels, can I get essentially the same programming by going to the local digital channels?

3. Will the HD receiver interfere with either local analog or satellite reception, or vice versa? From the manual, it looks like the 3510 does not send its own signal over the RF antenna connection (unlike my satellite receiver), but uses only composite, S-Video, component, RGB, and DVI connections. I suppose I could simply switch off the signal for the VCR or SAT receiver, as I must do now to watch local stations elsewhere in the house.

I would be buying this unit for its DVD player, not its TV, but it would be nice to see how HDTV looks.

Originally posted by Grampa
...snip

I would be buying this unit for its DVD player, not its TV, but it would be nice to see how HDTV looks. This unit is over-kill (and over expensive) to use just for the DVD player. There are a couple other DVI enabled DVD players out there that you should look into instead.

Search for:
Samsung 931
Bravo D1
Momitsu v880

I'm sold, just wish I could find one in stock somewhere. The only online place I've found (via google) is out of stock (they are charging 599.) LG's site tells me there isn't a dealer within 100 miles of Rochester NY so I guess I'm SOL for a while.

1. Depends on the antenna you select. If you use a VHF/UHF with a good Yagi for the UHF, you should get both SD and HD stations. Is everything from the same direction?

2. The digital broadcast from most stations is a simulcast of their analog signal. It may just be a 480i digital signal or it could be one of the other 17 digital formats in the ATSC spec, two of which are HD. Each station also has access to several sidebands that can carry different signals from the main signal. It's up to the station what they want to show, but as of April1, 2003, 25% of their programming had to be on their main digital broadcast.

3. There should not be any interference. It's just another signal - higher in band then anything analog.

AVgod, thanks. The stations are located within about 180 degrees of arc from where I live, and most are close. Zenith has a website that recommends a Medium Directional Antenna with a preamp.

moeronn, I have the Bravo now, and it's buggy. The Momitsu is also said to have problems, and I'm not comfortable buying it overseas. The Samsung (I have read) will not properly display 4:3 material. The same is apparently true of the very expensive Denon DVD-5900. The cost of this LG does not trouble me, and it will give me some TV options in the future, particularly if I ever return to cable (which I probably will do).

AVGod-

You are wrong in stating that the 3510A will output any resolution at all on RGB from DVD. JFerg from LG electronics also said the 3510 outputs NOTHING on RGB from DVD. The 3510 does output 480p/720p/1080i on RGB for HDTV (OTA or QAM) ONLY.

To repeat for the umpeenth time, the DVD Forum, of which LG Electronics is a member, PROHIBITS the sale in the US of ANY DVD player with active RGB outputs at ANY resolution. (Some NON-DVD Forum members have made and make RGB out DVD players.)

The one, only and exclusive means of getting 720p/1080i from DVD with the 3510A is via the DVI-D output into an HDCP compliant display device PERIOD

Go ahead and hook the RGB outputs of the 3510A to any display device you have, play a DVD, and see what you get: NOTHING.

The Owner's Manual is apparently as poorly written as the web site info on the 3510A which ALSO claims 720p/1080i out on component or RGB for DVD. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

Is AVgod actually speaking to DVD or just QAM and ATSC?

Originally posted by AVgod
That having been said, the 3510 takes a big step forward because of its scaler, which works on the digital read right after coming off the optical transducer. Virtually all other scalers work in the analog domain or wait until the progressive layer has been de-interlaced by the player (as you know, the recorded signal is progressive, but virtually all players first deinterlace it to 480i (for the composite and Y/C outs) and then relace it to create 480p - two more processing layers - never a good thing.)

What are you basing this on? It certainly seems like the other DVI equipped players (like the ones based on the Sigma Designs 8500) are doing their scaling in the digital domain. Perhaps the quality is not as good as the Oplus chip (although I have not had the opportunity to compare), but it's certainly not in the analog domain.

I'm not really sure what you mean to say about scaling right after the "optical transducer". Are you implying that it is done right after it is read off the disk? That's the only optical part in the system, but thats compressed data, not an image that is ready for scaling. Nor do I follow your explanation of de-interlacing an already progressively coded image. Are you implying that other DVI players create an interlaced image from the progressive, then convert it back before scaling? That is probably true only in the case of material encoded as interlaced,andthen processed by something like a faroudja chip, but even that is generally done digitally.

I'm just a bit concerned you are faulting other hardware based on incomplete information or incorrect assumptions about how DVD players work.

Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
The Owner's Manual is apparently as poorly written as the web site info on the 3510A which ALSO claims 720p/1080i out on component or RGB for DVD. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! For what it's worth, a Note under RGB Connection on page 15 states:

• RGB signal is not output through the “RGB OUT” jack during playing back a DVD which copy protection signals are recorded. We recommend that you use component video connection and 480p or 480i resolution.

And again, a Note on page 19 states:

• The selected resolution and ouput resolution may be different during playing back a DVD which copy protection signals are recorded. e.g., The ouput resolution is changed to 480p automatically even though the selected resolution is 1080i.

Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
AVGod-

You are wrong in stating that the 3510A will output any resolution at all on RGB from DVD. JFerg from LG electronics also said the 3510 outputs NOTHING on RGB from DVD. The 3510 does output 480p/720p/1080i on RGB for HDTV (OTA or QAM) ONLY.

To repeat for the umpeenth time, the DVD Forum, of which LG Electronics is a member, PROHIBITS the sale in the US of ANY DVD player with active RGB outputs at ANY resolution. (Some NON-DVD Forum members have made and make RGB out DVD players.)

The one, only and exclusive means of getting 720p/1080i from DVD with the 3510A is via the DVI-D output into an HDCP compliant display device PERIOD

Go ahead and hook the RGB outputs of the 3510A to any display device you have, play a DVD, and see what you get: NOTHING.

The Owner's Manual is apparently as poorly written as the web site info on the 3510A which ALSO claims 720p/1080i out on component or RGB for DVD. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

Robert

I bow to your superior wisdom.

Obviously, the player which I have had in my hands for two weeks is an aberation.

Mine seems to output 720p and 1080i on its component jacks as well as its DVI. My Sony VPL400q will not display a 480p signal, only 480i or 1080i. The component inputs have to be set manually. When I set the player to 1080i and the VPL to 480i I get nothing. When I set the VPL to 1080i I get a great picture. When I set the player and the VPL to 480i I get a soft, fuzzy image, typical of what I usually get straight from a DVD player. When I hook the player to the Component ins of the Marantz 12 and output 1080i or 720p from the player, it tells me via its on screen that it's receiving 1080i or 720p and the picture differences are plain to see.

Still, the equipment and I must be mistaken. Sorry to have wasted both your time and mine.

Is it possible that there is a misunderstanding based on the term "RGB," which the manual uses to describe the 15-pin VGA connector, but which can also be used to refer to "component"?

The manual is pretty clear that copy protected DVDs cannot be output through the RGB (VGA?) connection at 720p or 1080i. It makes no such statement about the component connection. I know nothing about what the DVD forum requires.

TO ANYONE READING AVGOD'S POSTS: WARNING!!! READ THIS!!!

AVGod-

First, my post was in response to yours stating that the 3510A output RGB from DVDs. Your answer does not even mention RGB out, but, instead, now claims 720p/1080i out from component for DVD. I assume, therefore, that you now agree the 3510A will NOT output RGB from DVDs

As for the component output issue, again for the umpteenth time, the DVD Forum, of which LG Electronics is a member, PROHIBITS the sale in the US of any DVD player which outputs any resolution over component outs other than 480i/p. (Again, non Forum members have made and make players which do output 720p/1080i over component.)

When JFerg of LG Electronics tested the 3510A, he only got 480i/p over component out on DVD. (800-984-9349; Fax 256-774-4142) I suggest you contact him.

Thus, either your machine is an aberation, or, more likely, you have both the DVI and component outs from the 3510A hooked into your Marantz, which, when presented with live DVI and component signals, automatically chooses the DVI input, which you thought was component.

You claim that most digital broadcasts are just simulcasts of the analog station as a digital "480i signal or ...one of the other 17 digital formats in the ATSC specs, two of which are high definition," is ridded with errors.

First, there is no 480i digital standard; that's analog NTSC. There is a 480p digital standard, which is used during daytime programming.

Your claim that most broadcasting is at 480(i or p) is false; the overwhelming majority of prime time broadcasting is in HDTV at 720p or 1080i.

Your claim that only 2 of the 17 ATSC standards are high definition is false; almost all of the 17 are.
And your claim that stations are broadcasting many of the 17 standards is also false. Only three are being used: 480p, 720p, and 1080i.

You also state that "most" scalers operate in the analog domain. That is absolutely false. They operate in the digital domain. All of them.

You also state completely incorrectly that DVDs are progresive in nature (480P), and are then deinterlaced to 480I. Totally backwards. DVDs are interlaced (480I), and are then deinterlaced to 480P. Deinterlacing removes the scanning lines, not adds them, as you think.

By your "logic", DVDs are progressive, and are then deinterlaced to 480i, and the AGAIN deinterlaced to obtain a 480P signal. IF DVDs were inherently progressive, which they are not, then you wouldn't need a deinterlacer at all to get a 480p signal, and Faroudja would be out of business.

To put it simply: you deinterlace 480 interlaced to get 480 progessive. Get it? De-interlace? Remove the interlacing? You incorrectly state that you deinterlace 480p to get 480i.

Interesting that you made the same interlaced/progressive mistake with ATSC broadcasts as you did with DVDs. Are you sure you know the difference?

But of course you must know the difference! After all, you told us in one of your posts, "I've been on EVERY standards committee since the Red Book [CDs], and I wrote that manuals THE WHOLE INDUSTRY USES to train on Audio, Video, and TV." Ya, right.

I make no apology for the tone of this post. You have sudddenly appeared here, calling yourself AVGod, claimed to have inside info from LG electronics, and have proceeded to spew forth misinformation, and false, baseless, technological mumbo jumbo. AVGod? Hardly. AVWealthOfIgnorance.

Sincerely.
Robert Whitehead

Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
TO ANYONE READING AVGOD'S POSTS: WARNING!!! READ THIS!!!

AVWealthOfIgnorance.

Sincerely.
Robert Whitehead

I can't believe my eyes! I usually have to be the point man and then suffer from angry posts by the uniformed. Which you can see in this thread.

I knew this imposter was a fraud too:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3006928#post3006928

Thank you Robert Whitehead for "raising the bar". Or at least picking it off the floor. I wish more users would have the courage that you do.

480i most definately is an ATSC format. All SD DTV stations (except FOX
network stations) are 480i and the SD sub-channel of multi-channel stations
is 480i. The only 480p you'll see on OTA DTV is from FOX stations.

Here's a table of the 18 ATSC formats:

------------------------------------------------
Ver. Hor. Aspect Picture Pixel
Lines Pixels Ratio Rate AR
----- ------ ------ --------------- -------
1080 1920 16:9 30I 30P 24P 1:1
720 1280 16:9 60P 30P 24P 1:1
480 704 16:9 30I 60P 30P 24P 0.825:1
480 704 4:3 30I 60P 30P 24P 1.1:1
480 640 4:3 30I 60P 30P 24P 1:1

Note that there are really 36 formats, since each format has a 1000/1001
version. Of the 36, the only ones in common use (I have seen a 1080i@30
bitstream from KRON-DT) are:

1080i@29.97
720p@59.94
480p@59.94
480i@29.97

Here in the SF Bay Area, you'll will find more DTV stations sending 480i
than anything else. That's because there's a ton of independent, spanish,
home shopping, religious and ethnic stations all broadcasting in SD at 480i.

Ron

I think AVG is genuinely trying to be helpful, but has gotten in a little over his head.

Originally posted by dr1394
480i most definately is an ATSC format. All SD DTV stations (except FOX
network stations) are 480i That's because there's a ton of independent, spanish,
home shopping, religious and ethnic stations all broadcasting in SD at 480i.

Ron

From the 3510 manual on page 19 all 480i signal are converted to 480p or higher (for DVI output).

Here in the Dallas area all of the major stations are 1080i except Fox at 480p. The minor ones broadcast at 480i still. We need get the FCC to pressure them into upgrading.

Thanks to Grampa and Robert -

I've got my answer. Looks like I stick with the HTPC for DVD and add an HD card for HDTV. - Pat

Does anyone know if 3510a has any problems playing DVDs burned on DVD-R media ?

Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
TO ANYONE READING AVGOD'S POSTS: WARNING!!! READ THIS!!!

AVGod-

First, my post was in response to yours stating that the 3510A output RGB from DVDs. Your answer does not even mention RGB out, but, instead, now claims 720p/1080i out from component for DVD. I assume, therefore, that you now agree the 3510A will NOT output RGB from DVDs

As for the component output issue, again for the umpteenth time, the DVD Forum, of which LG Electronics is a member, PROHIBITS the sale in the US of any DVD player which outputs any resolution over component outs other than 480i/p. (Again, non Forum members have made and make players which do output 720p/1080i over component.)

When JFerg of LG Electronics tested the 3510A, he only got 480i/p over component out on DVD. (800-984-9349; Fax 256-774-4142) I suggest you contact him.

Thus, either your machine is an aberation, or, more likely, you have both the DVI and component outs from the 3510A hooked into your Marantz, which, when presented with live DVI and component signals, automatically chooses the DVI input, which you thought was component.

You claim that most digital broadcasts are just simulcasts of the analog station as a digital "480i signal or ...one of the other 17 digital formats in the ATSC specs, two of which are high definition," is ridded with errors.

First, there is no 480i digital standard; that's analog NTSC. There is a 480p digital standard, which is used during daytime programming.

Your claim that most broadcasting is at 480(i or p) is false; the overwhelming majority of prime time broadcasting is in HDTV at 720p or 1080i.

Your claim that only 2 of the 17 ATSC standards are high definition is false; almost all of the 17 are.
And your claim that stations are broadcasting many of the 17 standards is also false. Only three are being used: 480p, 720p, and 1080i.

You also state that "most" scalers operate in the analog domain. That is absolutely false. They operate in the digital domain. All of them.

You also state completely incorrectly that DVDs are progresive in nature (480P), and are then deinterlaced to 480I. Totally backwards. DVDs are interlaced (480I), and are then deinterlaced to 480P. Deinterlacing removes the scanning lines, not adds them, as you think.

By your "logic", DVDs are progressive, and are then deinterlaced to 480i, and the AGAIN deinterlaced to obtain a 480P signal. IF DVDs were inherently progressive, which they are not, then you wouldn't need a deinterlacer at all to get a 480p signal, and Faroudja would be out of business.

To put it simply: you deinterlace 480 interlaced to get 480 progessive. Get it? De-interlace? Remove the interlacing? You incorrectly state that you deinterlace 480p to get 480i.

Interesting that you made the same interlaced/progressive mistake with ATSC broadcasts as you did with DVDs. Are you sure you know the difference?

But of course you must know the difference! After all, you told us in one of your posts, "I've been on EVERY standards committee since the Red Book [CDs], and I wrote that manuals THE WHOLE INDUSTRY USES to train on Audio, Video, and TV." Ya, right.

I make no apology for the tone of this post. You have sudddenly appeared here, calling yourself AVGod, claimed to have inside info from LG electronics, and have proceeded to spew forth misinformation, and false, baseless, technological mumbo jumbo. AVGod? Hardly. AVWealthOfIgnorance.

Sincerely.
Robert Whitehead

Robert

You have done yourself and this forum a great disservice.

As it happens, I know avgod. He was the man who first taught me audio and video technology, back inthe mid-70's. Unlike anyone else in consumer electronics, he also taught it's history - the Electric Companies, the formation of RCA, the invention of television. When the history books all called Zworkin the father of TV, he was the first to speak of Farnsworth and Takianagi. It was over a decade before those names were seen by the general public, and the writers were people he trained.

He spoke passionately about the NTSC structure and the decsions that were made for marketing rather than technical reasons. When the ATSC was formed in 1982, he was among the first selected, representing the CEA.

I was e-mailed last night be the poor distraught student who foolishly named him avgod and talked him into visiting this font of knowledge. I am appalled, not only by your tone, but also by the depth of your ignorance. Who are you to be warning people?

To wit:

He graciously presented his credentials and you mocked him.

You claim there is no 480i digital standard. I was going to correct you by listing the standards, but I see another member already has. avgod said nothing about primetime in his posts - you leaped to that conclusion. He stated that most digital broadcasting is 480i and it is. With many stations providing 100% simulcast, only those few primetime shows are in HD and they may not last.

avgod argued long and hard with both the committee and before Congress about leaving the broadcast loophole that gives stations access to 200 billion dollars worth of spectrum without requiring HD programming. He lost that battle. As it sits, they need only broadcast digitally and, by doing so in 480i, they can transmit 6 independent channels in the same bandwidth as one decent HD signal. As commercial entities, which do you think they will choose to do?

By committee definition, only 720p and 1080i are considered high definition - the rest are designated standard or extended definition. That leaves 2 HD and 16 not. He should know - you obviously do not.

I have read his posts carefully and can find nowhere that he states that the internal scalers in DVD players operate in the analog domain. There are very few players that even have scalers and they all operate in the digital domain - a big advantage, as he states. Scalers in general, however, are a different matter. The overwhelming majority of scalers in use today are built into display devices or are external. Since since DVI is only now appearing on devices, it's obvious that they have been forced to operate on analog signals, since that's all that could be fed to them.

The subject at hand was the LG 3510 dvd player. avgod clearly states that he used only component connections on those component tests. He also states the he used a Sony VPL400q, a legendary projector but one obviously unknown to you. It does not have DVI ins and, as he states, must have the component inputs manually set to either 480i or 1080i. If it shows a picture when set to 1080i, then it's getting a 1080i signal.

avgod was Kenwoods representative to the DVD forum during the testing phase. I haven't tested every piece of software out there, but the standards call for the record layer to be 480p. This was an attempt to avoid the errors of CD and make the format forward compatible, even though no commercial NTSC 480p display device existed during the development phase. They came shortly thereafter - the result, not the impetus.

The reason no readily available DVD player reads this layer directly is cost, not technology. Again, avgod states this in his post. We need to provide a 480i output for composite and component - the connections of the masses. It's cheaper to create the interlace signal first, feed it to the output D/A for those jacks and then, if so desired, feed the interlaced signal to another chip that creates a progressive output. This players are not created for your edification, sir. They are created for profit and cost is king. avgod knows this. He's worked in the bowels of the monster for many years.

The irony of all this that that I'm much more angry about this than is avgod. He finds it humorous, since for years he's been telling us essentially the famous Jack Nicholson line about not wanting to know the truth. I'm just embarrrassed that you so passionately and emphatically proved him right. You've denied this forum access to one of the true legends in our industry.

Good job.

By the by, avgod is in LA this weekend, ironically training a large group of dealers as a favor to LG. I'm not sure who this JFerg is, but not he's not the man that LG sought to launch their line.

WOW is all I can say. :rolleyes:

I actually came to the thread to learn about the 3510A. Not to participate in a p*ssing contest.

Having said that - I can see both sides - the information that AVgod was putting out did seem sketchy and borderline.

We like straight facts - people spend hard earned $ based on what they read and they deserve both the facts and to know any biases of the people posting.

Robert is obviously a keen defender of "the facts" and I fully support that.

So let's put this to bed and get back to 3510A.

Could someone resolve these two posts:
...By committee definition, only 720p and 1080i are considered high definition - the rest are designated standard or extended definition. That leaves 2 HD and 16 not. He should know - you obviously do not.
and:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------
Ver. Hor. Aspect Picture Pixel
Lines Pixels Ratio Rate AR
----- ------ ------ --------------- -------
1080 1920 16:9 30I 30P 24P 1:1
720 1280 16:9 60P 30P 24P 1:1
480 704 16:9 30I 60P 30P 24P 0.825:1
480 704 4:3 30I 60P 30P 24P 1.1:1
480 640 4:3 30I 60P 30P 24P 1:1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

shouldn't "2 HD and 16 not" be "6 HD and 12 not"?

Also,
The reason no readily available DVD player reads this layer directly is cost, not technology. Again, avgod states this in his post. We need to provide a 480i output for composite and component - the connections of the masses. It's cheaper to create the interlace signal first, feed it to the output D/A for those jacks and then, if so desired, feed the interlaced signal to another chip that creates a progressive output. This players are not created for your edification, sir. They are created for profit and cost is king. avgod knows this. He's worked in the bowels of the monster for many years.
I have a Denon 1600, does it work as joethevideoguy1 suggests? How about the Bravo, how about the 5900?

Thanks,
John Flegert

(edited to read "6 HD and 12 not")

Hi

My name is Mike and I work at Paradyme in Sacramento.

We've been getting calls for this player over the last several days, mentioning this forum, so I got curious and joined.

Wow - things get hot and heavy here. Let me tell you what I've seen and found over the last several days, working with players from our recently arrived stock.

We first saw this player when a guy here in the big tomato brought in a sample that LG had provided to him. I want to buy THAT player. His component output always displays 1080i, 720p, what ever you want. I've watched him test it again and again. Ours (which just arrived)are glitchy.

Sometimes the signal locks on 1080i or 720p on the component outs and the disc plays. Sometimes it immediately drops to 480p on the component. This can happen on the same disc, on consecutive loads. The DVI out always displays the selected resolution and the component outs work fine on the ATSC/Qam tuner at any resolution.

At any rate, the picture quality at any resolution is really good, relative to others we sell, so this is still on my short list. If you have a DVI in on your display, you will be very, very happy with this, especially at its price. If not, you still may want it, since its does a lot of other things and does them very well.

One curious note - Archive copies made for demo using DVD Express always display at the selected resolution - 1080i or 720p - on the component outs.

Before the "progressive layer" myth is further propagated, I suggest AVG and his fans and "students" visit this link about progressive vs interlaced coding on DVDs, you'll find it quite illuminating:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

Originally posted by MikeinSacramento
One curious note - Archive copies made for demo using DVD Express always display at the selected resolution - 1080i or 720p - on the component outs.

That is because the copies are not copy-protected with CSS.

Joe the AV Guy-

First, you are correct that 480i is an HDTV standard. At the time I was thinking of those ATSC formats with a 16:9 display ratio, which are only 480p, 720p and 1080i. I neglected to consider the 4:3 ATSC formats which are 480i/p. I was wrong.

However, since 720p and 1080i are HD and each has 3 pic rates, there are SIX (3x2=6) ATSC HD formats, not only two as you state. There are 12 ATSC non HD formats (3-16:9; 9-4:3).

Second, AVGod stated, "The 3510 takes a big step forward because of its scaler which [is] digital. Virtually all other scalers work in the analog domain." Even you admitted the second statement is incorrect.

Third, from the exhaustive coverage of DVD players in Secrets Of Home Theater:
"There is a persistent myth that DVDs are inherently progressive. THIS IS NOT TRUE. Anything shot w/a video camera is inherently interlaced. The input to a DVD encoder is an interlaced digital master tape, even if shot on film. The output of the transfer is interlaced. ...In short, the content of a DVD is interlaced conceptually and is stored in interlaced sequences."

A poster above was kind enough to provide the link to the entire article should you care to read it.

To clarify one point: DVD Forum rules prohibit the output of 720p/1080i via component out for DVDs with CSS copy protection. Others, such as X rated DVDs (?), which do not have CSS copy protection, will output those resolutions on component.

I confess I do not know WHAT will be output from the RGB outputs on the 3510A for DVDs without CSS copy protection. Because of its included HDTV tuner, the 3510A is the first DVD player made by a DVD Forum member with RGB out, except for a short lived attempt some years ago by Apex.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eameres
[B]Before the "progressive layer" myth is further propagated, I suggest AVG and his fans and "students" visit this link about progressive vs interlaced coding on DVDs, you'll find it quite illuminating:

Man! I'm already learning stuff.

I went to the link and read everything. Nice animations! Still, it seems to confirm what that guy said.

The article states "But sources which are truly progressive in nature are hard to come by right now. Movies on DVD are decoded by the player as interlaced fields."

And this seems to be the guy's point - regardless of how they start out, the first thing the player does is create an interlaced image, just as stated on your link. He said that the original standard called for 480p and since those early releases were undoubtedly film based, the article confirms this. Maybe not all of it is done this way now, but a lot of it is and maybe most of it used to be. And the rest of his claim, that things are put back together by a chip seems to be confirmed by this link. This hardly seems to be a "myth." In fact, we now have two sources, him and your link.

Why does this matter, anyway? I'm missing something here.

MikefromSac, do your 3510A players reset to 480p when you turn it off then on (using a DVI connection/display with the 3510A DVI output set to something other than 480p) ?

When I power-up mine it shows a "AUTO DVI" message then resets the DVI output to 480p even though I had manually changed it to 720p before I turned it off.

Ken

Originally posted by kenhdtv
MikefromSac, do your 3510A players reset to 480p when you turn it off then on (using a DVI connection/display with the 3510A DVI output set to something other than 480p) ?

When I power-up mine it shows a "AUTO DVI" message then resets the DVI output to 480p even though I had manually changed it to 720p before I turned it off.

Ken

Ken

No. Actually mine outputs 720p on the dvi just fine and doesn't switch at shut down. Our player is hooked to a Marantz VP12S2 DLP. It's the component connection that sometimes goes 720p and sometimes 480p. We watched a couple of movies yesterday that were 720p just fine. We tried Pirates of the Caribbean this morning and only got 480p. Now we're watching a two-disc RUSH concert and it's 720p again.

Will someone puuuleease hook up the VGA HD15 pin out RGb (read not component) connection to see what it outputs? I know there has been a lot of "it says in the manual", and "JFerg said this of his prototype player", but didn't the manuals for the D1 and Liteon DVD players say things to the contrary to what is actually being achieve now by these players?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers and have a good weekend.

Bill Dempsey

I'll scare up a 15 pin and give it a try on the LG which, despite the strong words to the contrary, obviously is outputting component 720p and 1080i on quite a few movie discs. Seems like the folks with the strongest opinions don't actually have one of these - they just know these things.

Sir

I tried the RGB connection 15 pin mini to mini din. Results were mixed.

The HD tuner seemed to output, but we don't have a good HD feed here.

On DVD we got clear, upscaled output from two James Bond discs (Tomorrow Never Dies and Goldfinger) and got a "can't show through RGB, try component" warning screen from all our Superbit movies and the first two Austin Powers movies.

As was the case with the component outputs, all the store demo discs (which are DVD X Copies due to rampant theft), played fine and upscaled through the RGB 15 pin, even those that were copies of discs whose originals would not play.

Hope this helps.

Mike in Sunny CA-

You said, "Seems like the folks with the strongest opinions don't actually have one of these-they just know these things."

No, I don't have a 3510A. The information I am citing with respect to DVD players, their outputs and resolutions, DVI, HDCP and CSS are the rules of the DVD Forum, which can easily be found on the web.

The DVD Forum (formerly DVD Consortium) consists of most player makers, movie studios, and others involved in the DVD industry. They promulgate world wide rules on DVDs, players, regions, etc. These rules are binding on the members, of which LG is one.

I am not claiming to know what the 3510A WILL do. I am only stating what it SHOULD do if it is in compliance with the rules of the DVD Forum, and relaying the info provided by JFerg, an engineer at LG, when he tested out an early 3510A.

If the 3510A deviates from the DVD Forum rules, the Forum will force LG to withdraw it and modify it so that it does comply, or, most likely, LG will voluntarily take such action.

Years ago, Apex, a DVD Forum member, tried to sell a player with RGB outputs, a violation of Forum rules. Apex pulled the player off the shelves in about two weeks of its introduction after being told to do so by the Forum.

So, the Forum rules state that IF a DVD DOES have CSS copy protection, as most do, the 3510A should NOT output 720p/1080i over component, but only 480i/p. If the 3510A does output 720p/1080i over component on CSS DVDs, it is violating Forum rules.

IF the DVD DOES NOT have CSS copy protection, the 3510A is permitted to output 720p/1080i over component.

The DVD Forum has totally prohibited the sale of DVD players with RGB out in the US because copy protection signals do not transit over RGB. Because the 3510A has HDTV tuners in it, it DOES have RGB out, making it the first of its kind.

As for your results, I admit I am perplexed, for the following reasons: 1) Since the Forum bans RGB out players, the RGB outputs on the 3510A should not be live for DVD; 2) JFerg reported his 3510A was dead on RGB with CSS encoded DVDs; and 3) the owner's manual states that there should be no output from RGB with DVD.

I am not doubting your report at all. It appears, and I stress appears, that at least your 3510A may be out of compliance with DVD Forum rules. It may be that early made models perform like yours, and that the software will be changed to comply with Forum rules. Unfortunately, I can not disclose the source of this information. (At the risk of appearing to be like AVGod.)

Finally, your interpretation of the Secrets article on interlaced vs. progressive DVDs is mistaken. "There is a persistant myth that DVDs are inherently progessive. THIS IS NOT TRUE. ...The content of a DVD is interlaced conceptually, and is STORED [ON THE DVD] IN INTERLACED SEQUENCES."

I understand that what you were trying to do was reconcile the claims in the post from Joe the AV guy with the Secrets information, which is admirable.

Unfortunately, it can not be done because they are diametrically opposed, and totally inconsistent.

Thanks for your report on the RGB tests. Did you get both 720p/1080i? Did the Marantz indicate those resolutions?

Bob

Plain and simple, the claims that DVD's have some kind of "standard" progressive "layer" are false, and seem to demonstrate a basic lack of understanding of MPEG2 and the DVD format.

The DVD standards certainly contain ways of encoding progressive sources like film efficiently, but they have no inherent 480p "layer".

I question anyone who claims to be an expert but gets basic facts wrong. I also worry that such misinformation is being passed off as "gospel" by those proclaimed as "experts" by themselves or others.

Because of it's quirks, I am not entirely satisfied with my Bravo D1 and will continue to research the LG, but I can deal without the misinformation.

I now officially declare this thread totally irrelevant and useless :) There are more misinformation in this thread than any other 3510 threads I saw.

MikeinSacramento, can u specify whether or not those DVDs that outputs 720/1080i on either component or RGB are demo copies instead of original movie discs. That makes a world of difference before we can derive any conclusion here.

To expand on Foxbat121's question, is it possible that the DVD X copies played by MikeinSacramento had been stripped of their copy protection? Just a thought . . .

To readers of AVGod, Joethevideoguy1, and MikeinSacremento posts:
Warning! Do not believe them!

There was in this thread, a few minutes ago, a post by Joethevideoguy1 but signed by MikeinSacremento. Apparently Mike and Joe are the same person, and perhaps AVGod is, too.

Don't try to explain this one away. When was the last time you posted to the AVS Forum, but signed someone else's name? And, no, I'm not fabricating this; its the absolute truth.

The post has now disappeared; I assume Joe/Mike discoved his/their error. and deleted it.

All three, or two, or one of these members appeared at the same time, participating ONLY in this thread, supporting each other, and attacking those who disagreed with them. A little odd don't you think?

By now, I hope it is clear, to even the most forgiving of you, that these one, two, or three members are not to be trusted. Similarly, the information in their posts now lacks all credibility.

Take my advice: don't believe anything AVGod, MikeinSacremento, or Joethevideoguy1 have posted. Whether it's one, two or three of them, they are playing a cruel and misleading hoax on AVS Members, and should not be believed.

I am reporting this to the Moderators of this forum for appropriate action.

Robert Whitehead

I am a 3510A owner. I was able to get 720p and 1080i out of the component video output for the first few DVDs (LOR Extended, X2 and Toy Story 2) I played on day one. The next day, when I tried to play those DVDs again, I could only get 480p/480i through the component. I think there may be an unknown procedure that allows DVDs to be played in 720p/1080i resolution through the compoent output.

Anyway, who cares? The 3510A's DVI PQ is so much better than the component.

Conspiracy theory! Why delete the whole post?

Paradyme is selling them; one of the posters very possibly could be from there.

Come on, I'm unconvinded any of this is that important to be pulling such a big caper. Maybe we're taking ourselves a bit too seriously. Or, maybe not.

The story about a $10,000 SXRD was a truly wonderous hoax. I just don't see this one.

Luchan,

Sounds like the DVI provides plenty of love for all. Maybe with DVI we can all just get along.

Just give me some of that good ole DVI lovin'.

I'm glad the Z2 and the LG are playing real nice.

Like kenhdtv, the DVI auto reset problem could drive me crazy. Different manufacturers have their own ways of implementing the DVI interface. I think this is Sanyo's problem because the 3510A does not reset the DVI resolution to 480p when the Z2 is powered off.

Maybe a remote that can have a macro to change resolution upon power on.

Newk2-

I don't know why the very lenghty post was deleted in its entirety, rather than just editing the signature line; perhaps the Moderators did it if they noticed the inconsistent names, as I did.

I am sure that everone will be pleased to learn that whomever he is/they are, and however many of them there are, I will not be responding to any of their posts anymore.

They have established themseves to my satisfaction to be, quite literally, incredible; not worthy of being believed. The rest of you can form your own judgments as to his/their credibility. I am done with them/him.

Bob

Joe, Mike and AVG seem to all be connected to Paradyme. I recall initially seeing a mention of Paradyme in AVG's profile, but that is no longer the case. (in all the fallout of this thread,I could be mistaken on that). They also seem to have been sending people there to purchase the LG 3510a.

Intentionally or not, in my eyes they have cast serious doubt on the reputation of Paradyme.

I hope that someone can set the record straight.

This is one of the most screwed up threads I have viewed on AVS!; however I have learned through the many years on the Internet....NOT EVERYTHING WRITTEN IS ALWAYS CORRECT!...............Hmmmm just like in the printed rags, newspapers, etc.

Let's hope we can keep the QUALITY of the posts in this thread on focus, or just remove the thread.

Just my opinion.

John

I guess this is just one of the drawbacks of the medium. All I really care about is whether the unit is stable enough over DVI to make it worth my money to purchase. That is why I don't want a D1.

Hopefully we'll get at more meat and potatoes and leave all the rest behind.

Originally posted by Grampa
To expand on Foxbat121's question, is it possible that the DVD X copies played by MikeinSacramento had been stripped of their copy protection? Just a thought . . .

There is no CSS or anyother copy protection on any copied DVD because there is no way to copy CSS area in current DVD burner technology.

Originally posted by jrannison
This is one of the most screwed up threads I have viewed on AVS!;


You haven't seen the worest. This whole discussion could be played by one individual one both sides. There are poeple or companies who are paid to do this by the manufactuers, retailers and dealers etc.

Luchan-

Not me! If you'll check, I have over 1400 posts. The three who shall remain nameless are ALL in the single digits on posts.

Robert

Robert,

I was certainly not referring to you. I was giving an example how bad the internet discussion forums could be.

Loaded my 3510A with Raiders of the Lost Ark last night - connected via 720p DVI to my Sammy 56 DLP and got the invalid DVI device warning box. Tried to restart it several times but no luck. Switched to component to watch the movie, but after it was over, tried DVI again and it worked ! Haven't been able to re-create the error with the Raiders movie yet.

I have basically confirmed I do have the "reset bug" where my last output setting is lost when I turn the unit off and back on. My reset bug is associated with the DVI setting only. I have read here that someone else has the reset bug with their component output setting. My movie glitch mentioned above may be related to the "reset bug" I have. I'll find out more next week when I get some feedback from the LG experts.

Ken

so to all the 3510a owners out there, i know you've only had your unit for a very short amount of time, but how would you say the reliability of the unit is? this really looks like the unit to get, but having been burnt by the bravo d1, i'm a little hesitant on plonking down money on yet another psychotic quirky player. has anyone noticed any freezes or anything like that?

thanks

vincent

Originally posted by Luchan
There are poeple or companies who are paid to do this by the manufactuers, retailers and dealers etc.
If it "Looks Like A Duck" and it "Walks Like A Duck" then maybe it's an "Underground Marketing Duck".

The first message that started this conflict (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2999363#post2999363) has all the characteristics that I associate with a Duck. :D

1. New "first time" poster. True here.

2. A glowing report on some product. True here in message number 1.

3. Position backed by some kind of "appeal to authority". I'm using the term "appeal to authority" in the Basic Logic 101 - Argument Fallacy sense. True here and amplified by two subsequent followers.

4. A failure to respond directly to questions that might relate to issues that the product seems to have. Initially true until the Disney correction.

5. A quick response to questions about where to buy -- "Paradyme in Sacramento." True here.

"I'm no more paranoid than the next guy. ... Yes I am." :rolleyes:

In the time I've been coming to AVS forum, I've run into this pattern one other time.

What's strange to me is that it's much more effective and appreciated to state any product relationships right up front, and to follow that up with an attempt to provide good information. There are many more examples in AVS forums of that kind of contribution.

I don't know what the "true" situation really is in this thread, but I plan on buying the LG DVD player from a dealer with a good return policy or I'll wait for a lot of owner reports. The 3510A seems to be a good fit for me. :)

That's more interesting to me than finding out that the "profile" has detected a "hidden" agenda.

vks, the reset bug (repeatable) and the "no DVI HDCP display" at DVD start-up (occured once, not repeatable yet) are the only quality/reliability issues I have encountered so far. No DVD freezes after 4 full movies.

Ken

Ok. This is my third day here and already I'm weirded out.

If you look on page seven of this thread, you'll see that I actually am named Mike and I identified up front that I worked at Paradyme in Sacramento - one of probably a hundred places you can get the LG3510. I got on because we were getting calls about the LG and, since we have no web orders and no mail order business, this was a really wierd thing. One of the callers said to check out this site. I said all this up front so there would be no misunderstandings. Pay attention!

I had no intention of contributing anything because I'm not a tech guy - I couldn't explain the technology of a pencil if you didn't tell me what to say. I'm obviously new here, apparently a crime. How did you guys get started? Is this like checks? Can you start at 1000?

After reading some of the stuff, there were some basic questions about operation and whether something worked or not that I could answer. I'm in a store - I have access to the equipment and I thought I could contribute.

I spent the better part of a day feeding discs into the LG, trying the component outs with the scaler, scaring up an RGB cable to answer a poster's question. I reported what is happening on this machine with the projector we're using. Like most people in the industry, I'm paid by commission, so all this was on my own dime. Most of you guys seem ok and I went to bed last night kind of jazzed.

I only log on at work, from our registers, only during store hours and only when I'm not busy. I've never tried to sell one of these LGs here nor have I suggested that anyone buy one. Frankly, we're at a loss as to how to handle these requests since we're not set up for mail order business. To my knowledge we've filled two requests. I was not involved in either.

I have never tried to explain what I'm seeing - others have posted explainations, not me. I have a pretty good idea who avg is, since the first tests he posted were done in my store's front room. He knows our owners and is in fairly often, but is not a customer, as far as I know. You, particularly RW, beat him up pretty good, from what I can see, and yet, as far as what he said about the LG, the subject of this thread, he reported pretty much what I've found and, I'm sure, what anyone else who has this piece has found.

I'm not sure why these results are so upsetting. They are what they are. The person I think is avg fed 7 straight discs into the LG and each one scaled on the component outs. He was pretty excited and that's how I got into it. The DVI cable thing was really our fault. Ours is installed in wall but we never had a DVI source to test it. A day after he was here, he came back with a 30 foot dvi cable which he'd bought and we jury-rigged it to the projector so he could try it again. Near as I can tell, he posted his results and an apology. It took a day because the dude went out and bought a new cable just so he could double check something for you guys. A 30 foot DVI cable is like 350 bucks. RW, would you do that?

I have no idea which of you two guys is right. I don't care. This is about the LG - who cares whether DVDs are progressive or any of that other crap. But don't drag me into it. I hate bullys and, near as I can tell, we have a couple here. Maybe avg won't defend himself but I will.

Just so we're clear. I'm Mike. I work at Paradyme in Sacramento. If you have things you want me to try and are nice and friendly, and don't accuse me of paranoid bullsh*t, I'll find time and tell you what happens. I may not be able to explain why they happen, but there are obviously lots of folks with plenty of time and inflated knowledgebases that can handle that, if you don't mind the occassional personal attack.

PS to RW. I'm mad but I'm not shouting, or warning, or accusing. You need to chill. For a guy who claimed that 480i was not digital format (something I actually knew), that most digital broadcasts were HD ( 2 hours a night on the good night here in Sacramento, 22 hours in 480i - hardly most) and probably some other stuff I don't know enough to catch, you hardly seem the keeper of all knowledge, despite your 8 bazillion posts. In High School debate a person with weak facts ofter resorted to Ad Virum - personal attacks designed to cloud the issue. Sound like anyone we know?

Originally posted by Foxbat121
I now officially declare this thread totally irrelevant and useless :) There are more misinformation in this thread than any other 3510 threads I saw.

MikeinSacramento, can u specify whether or not those DVDs that outputs 720/1080i on either component or RGB are demo copies instead of original movie discs. That makes a world of difference before we can derive any conclusion here.

Sir

Quite a few commercial (non-copy) discs would play 1080i/720p on the component outs, but not all. those that did not were at 480p. I read the jackets carefully, but could find no common ground to predict whether they would play or not. It was "put the disc in and take your chances."

On the RGB, only the two James Bond discs, a RUSH concert video, and the copies played (that I tested). Everything else from the DVD player on the RGB got the screen disclaimer telling me that I needed to switch to component.

Originally posted by Newk2
I guess this is just one of the drawbacks of the medium. All I really care about is whether the unit is stable enough over DVI to make it worth my money to purchase. That is why I don't want a D1.

Hopefully we'll get at more meat and potatoes and leave all the rest behind.

Sir

I'm not sure what you mean by stable on the DVI but that is the one connection that doesn't seem to vary on this player. It always outputs whatever you select. Now that people have mentioned a reset problem I've been watching for it, but our demo unit comes on at the resolution you shut it off at. To my knowledge, we have not changed anything menu-wise. The only time we had a problem it was in the cable, which we've since replaced.

There is a new Pioneer coming out - a DV59(?) that has a faster processor, higher bit convertor, scaler, and DVI. The rep told us about it last week and said it should be in shortly (not just at Paradyme but at all Pioneer Elite dealers, conspiracy theorists).

Since the Grand Puba of this thread appears to have issued a order of banishedment (tell a lie long and loud enough - wasn't that Hitler's theory) on me, I may or may not be available to post. I'll live. Up until 3 days ago, I'd never heard of this place.

No good deed goes unpunished.

Mike,

I'd encourage you (and other folks at Paradyme) to stay, but I offer this word of advice, this forum has a LOT of really well informed individuals participating on it. Very few of them would be bold enough to use a screenname as audacious as AVGod. That type of behavior is a magnet for scrutiny.

I think AVG seems to have a lot of good info to offer, BUT he should refrain from making really bold statements based on shakey information, or he will get called on them. I'm sorry he got flamed on this thread, but his declarations were riddled with problematic and conflicting information. He sounds like an enthusiast, and I applaud him for that, but I am concerned if he is spreading his opinions as gospel. If he is in fact training people on this stuff, I recommend he take a refresher course on the basics of DVD, and MPEG2, they are, after all, relatively new to the landscape if you've been in the industry since 1968 as AVG states he has in his profile.

Many here have no qualms about policing the forum to make sure dubiously proclaimed experts are really up to snuff. I've been in this industry for quite a while, but learn more everyday.

Mike-

I admited I was wrong about 480i ATSC and explained why. You haven't admitted you were wrong in stating that there are only 2 HDTV ATSC standards, when there are six.

Here in Hartford, CT we get HD from CBS, NBC, ABC and Public TV virtually all night every night. I'm sorry you're missing out on it in Sacramento.

Bob

Originally posted by MikeinSacramento
Ok. This is my third day here and already I'm weirded out.

If

I'll bet you REALLY are! I think we have a "Sybil" here with multiple personalities.
"Mike" we are not going to accept anyone here that does have an established reputation at his time. Sorry.

I was going to write more but decided not to waste any more bandwidth.

Mike seems willing to atone for his "indiscretions", as long as AVG and Joe are willing to set the record straight and do the same, I suggest we welcome their opinions as you would anyone else's (with that same large grain of salt!).

(just please don't start accusing me of being anyone's alter egos!)

Originally posted by eameres
Mike,

I'd encourage you (and other folks at Paradyme) to stay, but I offer this word of advice, this forum has a LOT of really well informed individuals participating on it. Very few of them would be bold enough to use a screenname as audacious as AVGod. That type of behavior is a magnet for scrutiny.

I think AVG seems to have a lot of good info to offer, BUT he should refrain from making really bold statements based on shakey information, or he will get called on them. I'm sorry he got flamed on this thread, but his declarations were riddled with problematic and conflicting information. He sounds like an enthusiast, and I applaud him for that, but I am concerned if he is spreading his opinions as gospel. If he is in fact training people on this stuff, I recommend he take a refresher course on the basics of DVD, and MPEG2, they are, after all, relatively new to the landscape if you've been in the industry since 1968 as AVG states he has in his profile.

Many here have no qualms about policing the forum to make sure dubiously proclaimed experts are really up to snuff. I've been in this industry for quite a while, but learn more everyday.

Sir

We're not too geeky here at Paradyme. We're a small shop in backwater Sacramento with nice product but our main approach had always been customer service and care so I'm about as tweeky as we get and that's not very...

I honestly had never heard of this place. I'm not a chat room guy and mostly use the net for e-mail and searching knowledge from Google. I was kind of excited to find this forum, although, as RW noted, I've haven't been anywhere else and contributed. I have very little to offer at this point other than regular access to product that people might have questions about - hopefully operations questions, which I can definitely handle.

I mainly want to learn, but I went to a Military high school and have had it with being shouted at. It's not condusive to my learning and that's why I'm here. I don't think I've defended avg at any point, merely confirmed that my unit does what his does, which I would think is what this place is for. So the ton of bricks was uncalled for and makes me nervous. All my posts are up and can be plainly read. All I've done is try to answer operations and "does it do" questions. To me the other stuff is at best off the subject and, at worst, totally meaningless.

I don't care if I'm not the smartest one here. If I try to be techy, I'll probably make mistakes. RW can have that title, since he clearly wants it. If, as he says, he's done with me, well good. I'd appreciate any help and information the rest of you might have when I ask questions and I'll gladly spend some time testing, wiring, and pushing buttons for you on stuff we carry.

Originally posted by MikeinSacramento
We're a small shop in backwater Sacramento ...
You could be in Turlock or Hanford. ;)

Mike, I hope you don't think I'm shouting. I'm glad to have you here, and I hope we can "bury the hatchet" with Joe and AVG as well. You should not feel it necessary to defend AVG's statements, I certainly hope he will take care of that himself.

I get the impression you (and others at Paradyme) have relied on AVG for a lot of technical insight on things. This forum will offer you a lot of other perspectives, and I hope that you find them useful!

Maybe it's time to abandon this thread and continue in another information-oriented thread about the 3510A? Some of us really want to know more about the players.

For those worried about the influence of a few people - Is it that easy to fool AVS readers? I think not, so why worry? I for one correlate the opinions of many people before deciding on my own. In the DVD software forum, it's very common to have one person call a DVD a "reference" DVD and other say it looks bad. We don't get into a fit over it anymore.

We are smarter than that so we need to move on to the fun stuff... DVD over DVI in 720p/1080i resolutions :)

Yeah it'd be nice if this thread got back to talking about the player instead of being useless.

Yes, I am VERY much interested in the 3510a and will probably buy it if I get enough motivation from a good thread.

I've reported this flame war to the moderator. Ya'll better get back on track quick. Who cares who is right or who knows more. Let's move on and get back to the DVD player.

yes...kids, please, let's get back on topic

so far, i asked a question about the reliability of the player and ken was the only one that seemed to have a problem regarding the resetting of resolutions. i can live with that.....i've lived with my psychotic bravo for this long! at least it doesn't run audio at double speed with a blank screen!

someone give me a reason to not buy this player :D

Originally posted by vksf01
yes...kids, please, let's get back on topic

so far, i asked a question about the reliability of the player and ken was the only one that seemed to have a problem regarding the resetting of resolutions. i can live with that.....i've lived with my psychotic bravo for this long! at least it doesn't run audio at double speed with a blank screen!

someone give me a reason to not buy this player :D

I bought 3510A before I even saw one personally. I am extremely happy with the unit. Remember I am upgrading from SAT520 and HD931. My standards were very high and this unit exceeded my expectations. I highly recommend to use the DVI output as the component output appears to have a narrower range for blacks. I do have the DVI auto reset problem.

You live in SF and I am sure you can put your hands on one with a local Zenith dealer. I sold both SAT520 and HD931 on eBay. I even made money on the SAT520.

If anyone ever does find out what MPEG decoder and what scaler are in there (rather than guessing) please let us all know! I do like my Bravo, but I could do with something better!

MikeinSac,

What I meant by stable is whether it does a consistant job of playing DVDs without locking up. Apparently many of the Bravo D1s require that most DVDs be buffed on a babies behind or they refuse to play (I overstate but you get the picture). Besides, I don't have any kids and I don't know if the dog's butt will work.

Actually I have already ordered a 3510 so I am already commited as of today.

Thanks for the feedback. I for one am willing to believe that you are dealing in good faith. I have recently been involved in another thread where I know for a fact that I was dealing in good faith but others questioned it and I know how this makes for very frustrating times. My skin was probably thinner than it should have been but here I am coming back for more. Also, the members sometimes get into a hen pecking party.

I was on this forum for almost a year before making a post and here you are trying to add value right out of the chute. Keep going I'm rooting for you.

vksf01,

You do not want to buy this player because you want to give me the money to buy more AV toys... er... Necessities. Yeah thats the ticket. :D

Now you have your reason.

Huey-
I sent my two "objectionable" posts to the Moderators immediately after I posted them because, whatever my tone, I believed I was raising serious issues about the posters in question which the Moderators should look into; to date, I have heard nothing from them.

eamers-
I asked the engineer whom I know at LG which MPEG decoder, denterlacer and scaler are used in the 3510A. The legal dept. at LG would not allow him to release this info, claiming it was proprietary to LG. (Those pesky lawyers!) I pointed out that many makers boast of the brands of these components which they use in their players. He agreed, but his hands were tied.

To All-
J&R in NYC now has the 3510A on its website, www.jandr.com , with a MSRP of $499. It's best to call, rather than order on line, as they typically discount. J&R has a great return policy: 30 days, open boxes accepted, no questions asked, no restocking fees. They do, however, insist that you put the piece of equipment in the box before returning it; no refunds are given for empty boxes. I've ordered one, but I will not report on what it does for obvious reasons.

Bob

Bob

My 3510a should be here Tues. and I'll try to post some impressions thereafter.
Charles

Originally posted by Rich4av
Maybe it's time to abandon this thread and continue in another information-oriented thread about the 3510A?
Start one. :)

Originally posted by MikeinSacramento
If you have things you want me to try and are nice and friendly, and don't accuse me of paranoid bullsh*t, I'll find time and tell you what happens. Mike, if you happen to have a 4:3 projector with DVI (e.g., NEC HT1000), and also a 4:3 disc (e.g., Casablanca), I would really appreciate knowing how they work together, particularly at higher resolutions. The issue I'm worried about is whether you can set the player's output AR to 4:3 and project full screen (i.e., expanding the vertical image as opposed to pillarboxing it within the projector's 16:9 frame). I have been told that a couple of other DVI players do not have the capability to adjust aspect ratio over DVI, at least at higher resolutions. If this is something you can check, I'd be grateful.

Ok, I'm buying one! Thank you so much for mentioniong JandR...

I have Charter HD Cable in St. Louis, so I hope this will work with my existing HD cable. I do not care about analog channels. It would be so awesome to just have one DVI cable running to projector... and not a separate long component cable.


Either way, I am mainly in it for the 720p DVI DVD output.

Hi all,
I read through most of this thread but I may have missed the answer to these questions - I apologize in advance if I did:

Is the output DVI-I ? I need to convert it to VGA in order to feed my projector. I hope it's not DVI-D. If it's DVI-I, I could simply use a DVI to VGA converter. I imagine the hdcp will not allow higher than 480p output via vga (but I'm hoping it behaves like the Momitsu and does output higher res without hdcp on DVI and component.

Can I set the DVI output to 1024x768 for DVD's so it scales exactly to my native projector res? then I can pipe this via VGA into my projector like with the Momitsu for a really pristine picture.

thanks

Originally posted by Bertola
Hi all,
I read through most of this thread but I may have missed the answer to these questions - I apologize in advance if I did:

Is the output DVI-I ? I need to convert it to VGA in order to feed my projector. I hope it's not DVI-D. If it's DVI-I, I could simply use a DVI to VGA converter. I imagine the hdcp will not allow higher than 480p output via vga (but I'm hoping it behaves like the Momitsu and does output higher res without hdcp on DVI and component.

Can I set the DVI output to 1024x768 for DVD's so it scales exactly to my native projector res? then I can pipe this via VGA into my projector like with the Momitsu for a really pristine picture.

thanks

The output is single link DVI-D. It has a VGA output.

Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
I've ordered one, but I will not report on what it does for obvious reasons.

Bob

I'm sorry, but your reasoning for not posting is not obvious to me. I sure wish you could allow your self to share your observations of this unit.

Thanks

Originally posted by Robert Whitehead
"I've ordered one, but I will not report on what it does for obvious reasons."

Bob
Originally posted by new_hd_fan
I'm sorry, but your reasoning for not posting is not obvious to me. I sure wish you could allow your self to share your observations of this unit.

Thanks

Bob,

Not obvious to me either! I know there was some sparring earlier in the thread, but my fear is that you are using that as a copout. Besides, I'm dying here because I have one on order from J&R and am currently only able to live vicariously through the current owners. Can you live with the certain knowledge that you are causing me a slow painful death? <Insert sad violin music> Come on through me a bone.

Originally posted by Newk2
vksf01,

You do not want to buy this player because you want to give me the money to buy more AV toys... er... Necessities. Yeah thats the ticket. :D

Now you have your reason.

Hahaha!

Unfortunately, that's not a good enough reason...it looks like i'm about to order it!....says i, with credit card poised in my hands.....

Well, bully for you. I have already ordered mine and am also waiting on the PJ to connect it to. Could have used the money for acoustics and such but I'm glad for you anyway. :)

Will this player/decoder output 1024x768 or 1280x768 via DVI?

A little off topic, but according to LG, the OTA tuner in the 3510A is better than that in the Zenith HD520; it's very similar to the OTA tuner in the LG DirecTV/OTA unit. A few people over at HDTV have reported picking up more stations than the 520,or getting existing ones better.

I printed out the Owner's Manual, and it has lots of errors. "If you want to view DTV...press DTV/DVD on the remote until DVD indicator lights!"

From reading the manual, I can honestly say that whomever wrote it simply didn't understand DVI with DVDs. DVD is almost an afterthought. 30 pages of the manual are on DTV; 10 are on DVD.

Putting together the spread out references, this is what the manual says the 3510A will do with copy protected DVDs: RGB-0; Component-480i/p; DVI-480p.

We all know from the posts here that this is simply not true. Although there have been some glitches that may need a software update, DVI is outputting 720p/1080i, even on the infamous Disney DVDs.

It is less clear to me what is happening with RGB and component because some people were using copies of DVDs and "X" (?) copies which lack CSS. I don't recall any reports on RGB or component w/CSS DVDs

I read somewhere (this thread?) that the 3510A is using the DVI-Video standard unlike the Samsung HD931 which uses the DVI-PC standard resulting in clipped blacks, crushed whites, loss of detail in dark areas, and not tranmitting all 8 bits on DVD. This is great news.

Unfortunately, there are no video controls on DVD. This makes a difference for those with projs, such as the Sharp DLPs, which have no video controls over the DVI input. If your proj has such controls, like the IF7200, this is a non issue.

No one has mentioned one way or another whether or not the 3510A suffers from the CUE, a function of the MPEG decoder, which LG's lawyers won't allowed to be revealed. The same question applies to the deinterlacer/scaler (also unrevealed). Is it of Faroudja quality? However no one has yet complined of the CUE or artifacts.

I ordered my 3510A from J&R yesterday for $420. (Ive been dealing with the same salesman for years and get very low prices.) Ordinarily I'd get it tomorrow, but with the Xmas season it might take longer.

I will report on my observations as to the above issues (outputs, resolutions, scaler,deinterlacer. CUE). Unfortunately, my system is not hooked up for RGB, so I will be unable to report as to that.

Thanks Bob - can't wait to hear you findings. I sure hope it doesn't suffer from CUE - that's inexcusable these days.

Robert,

There are 5 modes for the DVD picture setup. If you hold the Display key on the remote when playing a DVD disc, it will cycle through the 5 different modes. The descriptions for the 5 modes are in the manual. I hope LG will fix the DVI auto reset bug through a software upgrade in the near future. I did experience occasional audio drops when viewing CBS HD programs (no such problem with SAT520). It only lasted 1-2 second. Other than those, it is a great machine.

Luchan-

Yes, I saw the 5 modes, but those have to do with setting the deinterlacer, not picture settings

1 (the default setting) determines the correct deinterlacing based on the DVD itself, and works for film or video based material.
2 and 3 appear to be for video, not film, deinterlacing.
4 seems to shut the deinterlacer off for material that is progressive already.
5 is the auto setting, where the deinterlacer automatically selects the proper mode. It sounds similar to 1.

The video controls I was referring to were contrast and brightness. If you had a Sharp DLP proj with the 3510A, for example, you would have no way to adjust contrast or brightness, or optomize the picture with Avia or Video Essentials

The Denon 5900 has video controls for DVI (at a true bargain basement price), as does the latest software version of the Momitsu V880. The Samsung and Bravo do not. Again, the lack of these controls in the 3510A is not a problem if your display device had video controls over DVI.

Bob

This may be a stupid question but, why did the DVD Forum decide not to allow 720p/1080i over component for CSS protected disks? Wait! Hear me out:

What I'm getting at is, scaling 480i/p to 720p or 1080i will not add detail that is not on the DVD, so... why care if copy protected content gets scaled?

Wouldn't it make more sense for a player to be allowed to scale copy protected 480i material up to 720p/1080i for the component outputs, but NOT to output natively recorded 720p/1080i material on component? Could this be the true intent of the Forum's rule? Could this be how LG interpretted it for the 3510A? Wouldn't it make sense for them to interpret it this way?

What am I missing here? Maybe there is no good reason for this rule and that is just the way it is. But it seems like I must be missing something. Just can't imagine what it could be.

Thanks,

Sooke


Originally posted by Robert Whitehead


....

So, the Forum rules state that IF a DVD DOES have CSS copy protection, as most do, the 3510A should NOT output 720p/1080i over component, but only 480i/p. If the 3510A does output 720p/1080i over component on CSS DVDs, it is violating Forum rules.

IF the DVD DOES NOT have CSS copy protection, the 3510A is permitted to output 720p/1080i over component.

....

Originally posted by sooke
Wouldn't it make more sense for a player to be allowed to scale copy protected 480i material up to 720p/1080i for the component outputs, but NOT to output natively recorded 720p/1080i material on component?
Hmmm? There's no such thing as "natively recorded 720p/1080i" on DVD. DVD is recorded at 480i, no more no less.

This 720p/1080i restriction on DVD forum members does seem anachronistic and puts forum members at a huge disadvantage as we move into the HD age. I assume Samsung is not a forum member, which allows them to produce something like the HD931. Is there a movement in the forum to rescind this rule?

-Brian

Anyone using this player with a z2? If so, does the z2 allow picture adjustment controls with a dvi input?

Thanks

rlindo,

The combination of Z2 and 3510A's DVI is almost perfect. I have returned all Z2 settings to factory defaults. I have no color decoding or grayscale tracking problem at all. Everything is just perfect.

On Z2, there is no control over DVI input at all. You can't even adjust the overscan on Z2.

Luchan

Originally posted by Brian Miller
Hmmm? There's no such thing as "natively recorded 720p/1080i" on DVD. DVD is recorded at 480i, no more no less.
-Brian

Well there is the Terminator 3 DVD encoded with WM9 at either 720P or 1080P (can't remember which). Supposedly Samsung will release a player next year that can play it (now it must be played in an HTPC). I can understand the studios not wanting the component outputs to be enabled for THAT DVD. And others that may follow it.

Although I doubt the DVD Forum was farsighted enough to envision that possibility when the rule was made. But even if they were, the question still stands, why would they not allow outputing 720p/1080i on component when it has been scaled from 480i? Maybe they do? Is it possible there is a common misperception about the rule? If not, what is the good reason to disallow it? Or is there no good reason?

It's not that I care so much what the answer is, I'm more curious than anything else. Also, there was a lot of table pounding earlier in the thread about whether the 3510A comp output worked at 720p/1080i, and whether it conformed to the DVD Forum rule. But no post I saw questioned the interpretation of the rule. So I thought I would :) Infact, no post I saw quoted the exact wording of the rule as it is written (it is written somewhere, right?).

Sooke

Sooke, I believe the reason that no resolution over 480p on an analog output is allowed is that macrovision doesn't work on resolutions over 480p. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

Thank you,
John Flegert

I picked up the last one from J&R for $420. I should be getting it by wednesday.

I guess Hollywood should have protected itself better years ago and not allowed any movies to be released on vcr or dvd unless they were in black and white.

Oh, and maybe those "talking" movies were a big mistake too?

Originally posted by wblynch
I guess Hollywood should have protected itself better years ago and not allowed any movies to be released on vcr or dvd unless they were in black and white.

Oh, and maybe those "talking" movies were a big mistake too?

They tried and failed. Divx any one?

Originally posted by sooke
Well there is the Terminator 3 DVD encoded with WM9 at either 720P or 1080P (can't remember which). Supposedly Samsung will release a player next year that can play it (now it must be played in an HTPC). I can understand the studios not wanting the component outputs to be enabled for THAT DVD. And others that may follow it.

It's Terminator 2 DVD not T3 that has WM9 version of HD movie which requires a PC of 3GHz or better and internet for license.

Having read some of the above posts, I realize that by stating that almost all DVD player makers are members of the DVD Forum that I have left the impression that the player makers are imposing these rules and prohibitions on outputs and resolutions in a seemingly arbitrary fashion, with no logic behind them, almost as if they were playing games with consumers, and trying to make things confusing and difficult.

This is not the case and I sincerely regret having given any one that impression. As set forth below, it is the movie studios which are the real power in the DVD Forum because they own the product-films. It is the studios who have insisted on these rules, and forced DVD player makers to accept them

The principal factor behind all these rules is paranoia of the movie studios. All of the major movie studios ae members of the Forum, and are terrified by the prospect of copying films.

This all began w/VHS tapes with Macrovision. And, it must be remembered that, like all paranoia, it is not neccesarily reasonable. The studios have fought for copy protection even when there is no existing equipment capable of recording the particular ouput format or resolution. When was the last time you saw a home VCR that can record component video, for example.

A little history:

1) When DVD was first developed, the studios initially wanted nothing to do with it, but ended up participating when they saw the cash advantage. They insisted on Macrovision on component (480i) out even though there were no component recorders. Dreamworks was the last studio to agree to its movies being on DVD-18 months after the last studio before it.

2) The movie studios insisted there be no RGB out, because the Macrovision signal can not be carried on an RGB signal, even though there are no consumer RGB recorders. (RGB is fine in Europe.)

3) When Toshiba wanted to come out with a 480p player, the movie studios said no because Macrovision could not be carried on a 480p component signal, even though there were no 480p component recorders. The Toshiba progressive DVD player was delayed nearly 2 years while Macrovision figured out how to incorporate its signal on 480p.

4) Since Macrovision can not be carried on 720p/1080i component, the studios say no to that. This has never been a real issue at the Forum; it's just a given

5) The ONLY reason the studios are permitting DVI out, whether scaled or not, is because of the HDCP copy protection standard. And how many digital 720p/1080i RGB recorders are there?

What you have to realize is that the real power in the Forum is the movie studios, because they own the product-movies. All the players in the world, with outputs and resolutions galore would be useless without the movies.

So when it comes to all but the most technical matters, it's the movie studios which call the shots, and they are paranoid.

Perhaps with this explanation, rules and prohibitions on DVD players which seem silly, illogical, and stifling to technology, not to mention convenience and flexibility, are more understandable. After all, we know from players made by non-Forum members that it easy and inexpensive to output 480p/720p/1080i through RGB, component, and DVI without HDCP.

(Samsung is a Forum member, and the HD931 has HDCP.)

Further observations on the LG 3510

On Saturday I took the opportunity while running an errand to play a little bit with the demo unit we have at our second store - just so we'd have another sample for our observations.

I'm happy (or sorry, depending on viewpoint) to report that the second sample performed identical to the first:

Using only commercially available discs (no copies):

On Component - many but not all discs scaled to selected resolution. All others scaled to 480p. No discernable pattern.

On RGB - Some but not many output a picture that appeared to also scale. Only 2 James Bond discs and a RUSH concert video output via RGB. All others got an on-screen disclaimer saying to switch to the component output

DVI - all discs output at selected resolution.

Neither sample seems to have the reset bug but maybe I'm not testing properly. I'm not taking power off the machine, I'm merely powering down via front panel or remote. Is this proper?

Further DVI (Subjective) - as good as the scaled component looks, the DVI looks even better. This is our first DVI source and on the Marantz single chip DMD projector and the Sony 3-panel LCD projector the image was most impressive. Kind of makes me bummed out that I spent $1500 for a 32"XBR850 a couple of years ago - lovely TV but no DVI. Still, in going through my notes from the LG meeting, the factory guy (GW from Zenith)said that DVI would have more of an effect on fixed pixel devices than it would on CRT based product. Hope this is true but maybe one of our resident brainiacs can enlighten us.

More on DVI - a possible issue seems to be the cable. First, quite pricey. Second, anyone who works in a store has learned to hate S-Video with those 4 little bitty pins. At home you probably plug the cable once and don't touch it for years but stores are always hooking and unhooking and the pins bend and break easily. DVI has lots of little pins and already one of our three samples has gone bad.

The scaler - I looked in my notes about this. GW clearly stated that the OPlus Rembrandt was used in LG's Plasma panels but nothing was said about what's in the 3510. It looks like a real nice scaler, but I'd think it's a leap of faith to assume that what's in the plasmas is also in the 3510.

The tuner - we haven't said much about the ATSC tuner, another unique feature on the 3510. I took our sample home yesterday and tried it on cable and on over the air. On cable I got the 3 clear local channels, ESPN HD and the two INHD channels. No HBO, Showtime, Discovery. I don't pay for them so it's no surprise. I just have digital basic. I did get all the digital music channels, which was a surprise. I do pay for them, but why the ATSC tuner picked them up is beyond me. No other standard cable channels were tuned.

Over the air I just used rabbit ears. I pulled in every local channel that's up on digital. This was much better performance than the DSS combi units (Hughes, Sony, Mits) that I'd tried previously. My note say that this is a 5th generation chipset - two chips instead of 3. These are GW's words, not mine so take them as you will. I will say that every other HD box I've used turned into a George Forman grill after about 15 minutes. Relative to them, the 3510 stayed cool for the time I tested it (about 3 hours).

Subjective image performance was excellent. No wavey leeterbox, no people looking like SpongeBob Squarepants. This does not seem to be a throw-in tuner. It looks like it might be a very good one. Just wish it was also NTSC - that would really make it one stop shopping.

Mr. Bertola - you can only select 1080i, 720p, 480p, or 480i - no 768p.

Grampa - sorry - no 4:3's in the store. We are supposed to get a HighEnd Runco that uses an industrial double speed dark metal 4:3 DMD but not here yet.

Mike-

Thanks for the report. LG told me the OTA tuner was better than the Zenith 520, and your info (and some comments in the HDTV forum) seem to bear that out. And after the occasional reports of 480p only on DVI, great to hear that there was no problem getting the res you wanted.

By any chance, did you try out the different deinterlacing modes (p52 of manual)? Mine should be here any day now. (The outputs on component and RGB still puzzle me. I'm beginning to think that it is the result of imperfect or absent copy protection on the particular DVDs.) Thanks again.

Bob

RW

No. The different modes don't show up in the main menu so they weren't obvious to me. I'll look into it.

Our sample DVDs are all over the board, some old, some new, some movies, some concerts - typical AV demo fare. Most look like a hockey rink before the Zamboni hits it, so the player is pretty good at reading. As I stated, I looked at the jackets for some commonality but could find nothing that stood out. I'm telling customers that it does occasionally scale the progressive output but there's no predicting that it will happen on their favorite disc or the one they just rented. Fortunately, the 480p also looks good.

MikeinSac, the "reset bug" test just involves manually setting the 3510A output to "DVI-720p" (DVD or OTA, it doesn't matter) and turning the unit off with the remote, then back on with the remote.

When I do that with mine, "AUTO- DVI" is displayed on the front panel for a second, then the 3510A output changes to "DVI-480p" every time.

Ken

Mike, a couple quick questions.
On Component - many but not all discs scaled to selected resolution. All others scaled to 480p. No discernable pattern.
How can you tell what the resolution you were seeing? Does your display device let you know what it's receiving?
Any chance you could list for us which DVDs did scale and which DVDs did not?

On the display panel of the 3510A it has the resolutions spelled out (no colored light): 480p, 720p, 1080i.

Robert, suppose you chose 1080i as the output rez and then the player down-rezzed it to 480p. Would the box say 1080i (what you chose) or 480p (what is actually happening)?

Originally posted by rbmcgee
Mike, a couple quick questions.

How can you tell what the resolution you were seeing? Does your display device let you know what it's receiving?
Any chance you could list for us which DVDs did scale and which DVDs did not?

Sir

Yes, the Marantz VP12S2 displays its synch information every time you change inputs on the Projector or outputs on the player. I've been relying on it entirely for this info. The aspect changes (image hieght), so that's my other clue that things are happening.

I'll try to put together a list of the discs we tested.

Originally posted by rbmcgee
Robert, suppose you chose 1080i as the output rez and then the player down-rezzed it to 480p. Would the box say 1080i (what you chose) or 480p (what is actually happening)?

Sir

I can answer this one. The front panel continues to display the selected resolution, even when the projector is receiving 480p.

Originally posted by MikeinSacramento
Further observations on the LG 3510

More on DVI - a possible issue seems to be the cable. First, quite pricey.
Maybe you need to find another source for DVI cables. People in the forum have been getting good results with cable runs of at least 3 meters, and maybe more, from sources like Pacific Cable (http://www.pacificcable.com/) and others. A 2 meter cable is usually less than $20. :)

Originally posted by htwaits
Maybe you need to find another source for DVI cables. People in the forum have been getting good results with cable runs of at least 3 meters, and maybe more, from sources like Pacific Cable (http://www.pacificcable.com/) and others. A 2 meter cable is usually less than $20. :)

Sir

Thanks. That's good to know. Two meters doesn't do much for us (the usual install is closer to 9-10 meters) but our current 30 footers are in the $350 range so these folks may have better values. We currently use Key Digital 30' without any performance issues.

Does anyone make a 12"to 18" DVI cable? I'm planning on mounting my player right below the projector.

Jack

Mike-

The reason why DVI is of more importance to digital displays (the Marantz is a prime example) as opposed to analog displays (like your Sony) is that the whole idea is to avoid any conversions to analog of the digital signal from the DVD right through to the display.

Let's use the 3510A and the Marantz as an example. The digital signal comes off the DVD, gets deinterlaced digitally, and scaled digitally to 1280x720 in the 3510A.

That digital signal is fed by DVI to the Marantz. Since the native res of the Marantz is the same 1280x720, you bypass the scaler and deinterlacer in the Marantz, and the 1280x720 signal from the 3510A directly drives the DLP mirrors.

This is called pixel to pixel imaging, and accounts for the incredibly sharp rich picture which is POSSIBLE from DVI players. The same reasoning and benefits apply, by the way, to ATSC signals fed via DVI since they originate digitally.

Even if you output 480p from the 3510A and then have the scaler in the Marantz upconvert it to 1280x720, you have acomplished the same thing since the signal is never converted to analog. I honestly don't see what the difference is, but this is not considered pixel to pixel matching.

What if the scaler in the proj were better than the one in the player? Wouldn't you be better off feeding digital 480p to the proj?

CRT sets are analog in nature. So IF your Sony hd DVI in, at the end of the chain, the digital signal has to be conveerted to analog, losing the principal DVI advantage. So don't feel too bad. And even if there were a difference, with a 32" screen it would be slight and not noticable at normal viewing distances.

I used the word possibly above in saying DVI might be better. Simply because DVI is used for a DVD player or HDTV tuner does not make it better. I had a Samsung HD931 hooked up to my InFocus 7200, and, in my opinion, my Panasonic DVD-RP82 made the Samsung look sick.

(And stop calling everyone sir; you're not at work!)

Bob

Originally posted by MikeinSacramento
Sir

Thanks. That's good to know. Two meters doesn't do much for us (the usual install is closer to 9-10 meters) but our current 30 footers are in the $350 range so these folks may have better values. We currently use Key Digital 30' without any performance issues.
You can't avoid the higher cost of DVI cables if you are going to run them from here to "TIN-BUCK-TOO". :D

Those distances are going to take the highest quality DVI cables to avoid signal drop off. Us RPTV folks have a more modest range to deal with.

Originally posted by rcfoster
I've bit the inside of my lip trying to not say anything, in hopes that this thread would go back to being about the 3510A, but when that little dig at the end of the post came up about calling someone "Sir," that was it !

P.S. Mike, if you can't tell I HATE BULLIES ALSO

Bob
I think Mike could get along without the "Sir" too. :)

Does that make me a bully, or you a name caller? It seems to me that you may be trying to start the fight all over again. :rolleyes:

Mike and Robert seem to me to be sharing professional quality information. They're both contributing to this thread and I appreciate both their efforts.

Be cool and get used to the place. :)

HtWaits,

I do agree that Mike might lose the more formal honorific as we are a somewhat informal bunch. However, I believe a request might have been more justified than the demand from Robert... Especially considering the history of the thread.

Many adults don't respond well to being TOLD what to do! I don't generally see you resorting to that kind of behavior any more than I. Although I did suggest that someone might want to get a script for Xanax the other night.:p

Originally posted by Newk2
HtWaits,

I do agree that Mike might lose the more formal honorific as we are a somewhat informal bunch.
"Somewhat informal"! My god, some of us can't even find the "Shift" key. :D

A smiley face might have helped make intent clearer. I did'nt read it the way you did.

At one point in my life many years ago I was being Sir'd and was Sir'ing constantly. I've never missed it.

With Mike's typical installation needing 30' DVI cables I understand why he would make "Sir" habitual.

I would sure like to get one of the LST-3510A's to try out on several RPTV sets that I'm interested in evaluating. Unfortunately the two dealers that carry it in our area don't have much in the way of unconditional return policies.

what's a 'shift' key/:D

Originally posted by Newk2
what's a 'shift' key/:D
I should have known. :rolleyes:

Like my son, the engineer, you too are an Internet Slob. :p

I'm a new member and recently acquired a Samsung HLN567W. I currently use either my Pioneer 810H DVD Recorder or my Elite SACD player tp watch movies via component. I ordered a Bravo D1 over a month ago and it hasn't yet arrived. After reading some of the threads in the forum and at Extreme Tech, I'm not sure that I want it too. Anyway. I've read many of the threads about the 880 and the 3510a and thought that I'd ask the die hards for an opinion given my tv. Also does anyone know where I can buy either player in the Minnesota area or a reputable website where I can order. Thank you in advance for your patience with a newbie.

This issue may have already been addressed in another thread, or many even in this one (after reading so much, I think that my brain may have overloaded and missed it) but does anyone have a list (patial or otherwise) of non-form manufacturers that make DVI enabled 720/1080 players that are available to Americans? Thanks in advance.

Robert,

Your post about the history of DVD copy protection explained a lot to me. Thanks.

Sooke

rcfoster-

First, I questioned why Joethevideoguy1 posted signing Mike's name, and, apparently erroneously, assumed they were one and the same. I have never "attacked" Mike's reports on the 3510A I have found Mike's information very valuable.

Second, one does not have to own a piece of equipment to provide relevant infomation to a thread, e.g. the history of DVDs and copy protection, or my answer to Mike's question about DVI with digital vs. analog displays.

To state that what the Owner's Manual says about a piece of equipmemt is of no consequence or importance is the height of folly.

For you to suggest that reports on a piece of equipment from an engineer for the equipment's maker is not relevant is so innane that it is not even worthy of comment.

I suggest you read some other threads or forums here which are filled with information from people who don't own a particular piece of equipment.

You also allege that I am "jealous." Jealous of whom or what? This is a totally absurd, idiotic accusation without any foundation whatsoever.

Third, my comment to Mike about not using sir was tongue in check, and meant as a friendly suggestion, not an order. (Having been in sales myself once, I know how easy it is to get in the habit of calling everyone sir.)

This is an informal place for the mutual exchange of information among people with like interests, even though it is clear that you don't like my information. Formalities are not needed.

By your own admission you are new here. Why don't you try reading in other threads and forums to see the kinds of posts before you shoot your mouth off and cricize mine?

To call me a bully when you don't even know me is scurrilous and defamatory. I will refrain from expressing my opinion of you.

What was a flame war has since quieted down, and this thread has become extremely informative, in large part thanks to Mike.

You apparently want to restart the flame war. Well, that's perfectly fine with me. Fire away. I have reported your post to the Moderators for starting the flame war again.

Dark Gable-

I assume you are interested in non-DVD Forum DVD players because you don't have an HDCP display. There are two I am aware of: the Bravo D1, and the Momitsu (also Manowa) V880.

But if you are interested in one get it soon. Apparently the replacement (March 2004) Bravo D2 will have HDCP. And rumor has it that the replacement V880N will also have HDCP.

You can find the Bravo D1 at www.vinc.us. For the Momitsu, do a search of this forum. It isn't sold in stores. You have to order it from overseas.

The short story is if you want to buy a DVD player here in US, they all have to obey DVD Forum rules or rather Hollywood rules with the exception of V Inc.'s Bravo D1, which can not be obtained through any retail outlet. Of course, you can always import them from Asia (like Momitsu) where these rules means nothing.

Thanks for the info gentlemen. I 'd ordered a D1 a while ago but given the number of problems discussed on the forum, I'd probably better get the Momitsu and return the Bravo. Thanks again.

NOTICE: Three accounts in this thread have now been banned for they were all posted to by the same IP. This is something that AVS Forum takes seriously.

I remind all in this thread that we will continue to ban accounts as needed. We do not allow attacks to be made so keep your posts in check.

Dark-

Both the Bravo and Momitsu are based on the same platform, but there have been fewer reports of difficulties w/the Momitsu. In particlar, I don't recall there being the transport problems that the Bravo has.

Bob

Has anyone tried a long run of DVI cable (10+ meters) ? I am thinking of getting a long cable from ram electronics and their website says that 15m cables have worked with D1 and 931 dvd players. So it sounds like success is partly dependant on the equipment sending the signal.

My 10m DVI cable exhibits some white "sparkly" pixels when run by my Radeon, but not by my D1. You don't really see it in the video, or with the right adjustments, but in a black signal you can see it a bit. I'm not completely certain of the cause of the sparklies, but I assumed it is because I'm pushing the limits of the DVI specification.

I called LG Customer Support this mroning. LG acknowledged the problem but said the DVI reset was a standard feature of this receiver/DVD player. There will be no fix for this in the future. I consider this as a major bug in the firmware as LG is the only one that resets the DVI to 480p when a DVI handshake occurs. I am surprised that LG claimed this as a standard feature of DVI handshake.

Very disappointed with LG!!!!

Description of the problem: Every time when I turn the TV/Projector/3510A off/on or switch from component to DVI on my TV/Projector, the DVI resolution on the 3510A resets to 480p. I have to change it back to 720p or 1080i by pushing the buttons many times on the front panel. I have a Sanyo PLV-Z2 projector and the DVI reset does not happen with the Zenith SAT520.

Robert at **************** got me on the phone with the LG Product Mgr yesterday to discuss the DVI reset issue. I should get some feedback by the end of the week so don't give up yet.

Since it's obviously firmware controlled, it seems like a firmware update could either fix the bug or allow you to disable their "EZDVI" feature via a User Menu option.

uh oh....

just checked the J and R site and the LST-3510A is listed as out of stock! i hope i got my order in on time :confused:

There are going to be LG reps at a local store Thursday evening. At this point the store doesn't have either the LST-3510A or the LG LCD RPTV sets for demo. If they get them by Thursday I'll go and see if I can find out anything.

It's seems strange to me that Mike has two demo models that he reported not having the reset problem. Also, that kenhdtv talked to a LG Product Mgr who will look into it.

Then Luchan get's what amounts to a brush off. There are some wires crossed somewhere but one things for sure, I'm not going anywhere near one until these kinds of issues are settled.

I wonder how Roger's 3510 will behave?

Originally posted by htwaits
There are going to be LG reps at a local store Thursday evening. At this point the store doesn't have either the LST-3510A or the LG LCD RPTV sets for demo. If they get them by Thursday I'll go and see if I can find out anything.


which store? i see you're in palo alto. i'm in sf myself.

Originally posted by htwaits
There are going to be LG reps at a local store Thursday evening. At this point the store doesn't have either the LST-3510A or the LG LCD RPTV sets for demo. If they get them by Thursday I'll go and see if I can find out anything.

It's seems strange to me that Mike has two demo models that he reported not having the reset problem. Also, that kenhdtv talked to a LG Product Mgr who will look into it.

Then Luchan get's what amounts to a brush off. There are some wires crossed somewhere but one things for sure, I'm not going anywhere near one until these kinds of issues are settled.

I wonder how Roger's 3510 will behave?

I think the reset only occurs when a display unit (HDTV or Projector) does not have DVI user control functions. I absolutely cannot do anything with the DVI picture on Z2. Not even the overscan or resolution adjustments. The 3510A is on the control end of the handshake. Z2 is on the receiving end.