HI.

I have the KF60we610 model.

I was looking over the instructions and saw a reference to Cinemotion. I don't know why.. but I can't find an advanced menu option or any reference to Cinemotion in my manual..

What am I doing wrong here?

Also, is there a way to undo all of these tweaks if you somehow mess up? Unplug the TV for a week, reset button, etc?

Thanks,

George

Originally posted by wxperson
HI.

I have the KF60we610 model.

I was looking over the instructions and saw a reference to Cinemotion. I don't know why.. but I can't find an advanced menu option or any reference to Cinemotion in my manual..

What am I doing wrong here?

Also, is there a way to undo all of these tweaks if you somehow mess up? Unplug the TV for a week, reset button, etc?

Thanks,

George

Look on pages 69, 70 and 71 of your manual.

The only way to reverse the tweaks once you save them is to enter the old values back and save them. You can unplug the TV to clear any service menu changes you did not save with Mute - Enter.

Originally posted by bsgoren
DLiquid -

Try leaving it at Cinemotion and changing DRC R/C to 50/50 or 1/1 (as umr suggested) or even at 50/1.

Huh, I only just now figured out how to get the part of the menu that sets reality/clarity. I completely missed the fact that umr's guide described setting these at all.

On a related note, when do the advanced video options are available for setting? On my set, they're only available with video 5. This is the input I use for 480i (and sometimes 480p) signals. Video 6 is always 1080i coming out of the cable box, and the advanced options are not available on this or any of the composite or s-video inputs, AFAICT. What gives?

Originally posted by naimis
On a related note, when do the advanced video options are available for setting?

I guess i should RTFM :-)
"Advanced Video is unavailable when you have selected Mild picture mode, or you are watching 1080i, 720p and 480p sources with Video 5 to 7 inputs."

It's too bad the HD tuner does all the scaling internally (SA 3250HD), I'd rather like to see if the TV does a better job of scaling, etc.

Originally posted by DLiquid
I'm not sure about the XBR, but on the WE the DRC stuff only applies to 480i sources. So for me HD and DVD are not affected by my DRC settings.

Yes, this is the same with the XBR. What I was primarily thinking (but perhaps not communicating) with this were the tweaks that enhance the resolution of the picture. These may not be the best thing to do for a bad picture, but a really good thing to do for a good picture.

Originally posted by stocal
Don't worry about wrongly entered settings. You can always restore to factory preset by following the following steps(as per Sony service bulletin)

1) Power off the set.

.....

7) Plug TV back and Power on...done

stocal,

This did not completely work on the GWII. Have you tried this on one of these?

umr

I have not tried it on my 50" GWIII because i have not ventured into SM yet. Just doing my homework for now but i will try your posted tweaks soon.

Originally posted by stocal
umr

I have not tried it on my 50" GWIII because i have not ventured into SM yet. Just doing my homework for now but i will try your posted tweaks soon.

It is not wise to recommend something in the service menu unless you KNOW it is correct. Those factory settings may return your set to a functional state, but they typically loose any set specific adjustments that the factory made. I spent several hours one day helping a fellow get his set back to normal after he tried using the factory reset in a GWII. He would have been totally out of luck if I would not have had pity on him. He found the instructions listed somewhere and assumed they were safe.

It is not a bad option if your set is really messed up and you cannot figure out how to get it back, but I would not use it casually.

You need to stop posting this around until you go in your service menu and try it out for yourself.

You really should go back and edit your posts to include a warning or remove the instruction completely.

To those holding back from fear of complexity:

I did UMRs step-by-step tweaks in the first post of this thread and everythign went smoothly. Steps were accurate and to make things easier, I used junior_jam's posted PDF of GWIII (non-xbr) settings to record my own settings. My settings were different than the ones listed in Junior_Jam's PDF so it was good that I recorded them.

After setting everything up, my picture looks very good to me. DVDs are amazing.. I watched a bit of SW episode 1 and had a blast.

I'm having trouble with my ReplayTV though. I have it connected to the TV via S-Video since the 2 component inputs are being used by my comcast digital box and my DVD player. I don't use my REplay to record through my digital cable box as I don't see a need do.. I just split the connection with a high quality splitter directly into the Replay since all my recordings are on channels avail on non-digital. Also i don't have to mess with the IR blaster.

My quality through the replay seems very bad (pixelated, blurry) and I'm not sure why. This is for both live TV and recorded programs. Is it the MPEG2 compression I'm seeing?

Originally posted by wxperson
HI.

I have the KF60we610 model.

I was looking over the instructions and saw a reference to Cinemotion. I don't know why.. but I can't find an advanced menu option or any reference to Cinemotion in my manual..

What am I doing wrong here?



I figured out that I was using the DVI input (Samsung 931) and therefore the Cinemotion was not an available option. When I gave it a 480i input.. it showed up.

George

Originally posted by bobby_t1
...I'm having trouble with my ReplayTV though. I have it connected to the TV via S-Video since the 2 component inputs are being used by my comcast digital box and my DVD player. I don't use my REplay to record through my digital cable box as I don't see a need do.. I just split the connection with a high quality splitter directly into the Replay since all my recordings are on channels avail on non-digital. Also i don't have to mess with the IR blaster.

My quality through the replay seems very bad (pixelated, blurry) and I'm not sure why. This is for both live TV and recorded programs. Is it the MPEG2 compression I'm seeing?

I would try the composite output from the Replay. The Sony sets have a very good 3D Comb filter that is frequently better than what is in other consumer electronic devices. You may also be loosing too much signal strength with the splitter. Try not splitting the signal and see what that does. You may want to get a signal booster if that works and you want to split the signal.

You might want to set the Replay input to Standard and tinker with the User Menu for that input. The Replay device is probably poor quality anyway and it might benefit from some of the filtering and enhancement tricks on Standard.

Originally posted by umr
I would try the composite output from the Replay. The Sony sets have a very good 3D Comb filter that is frequently better than what is in other consumer electronic devices. You may also be loosing too much signal strength with the splitter. Try not splitting the signal and see what that does. You may want to get a signal booster if that works and you want to split the signal.

You might want to set the Replay input to Standard and tinker with the User Menu for that input. The Replay device is probably poor quality anyway and it might benefit from some of the filtering and enhancement tricks on Standard.

So S-Video does not go through this "3D comb filter"? Maybe that's obvious, but i'll ask anyways.

ANyone else on this thread have a Replay hooked up to their GWIII non-XBR and have tips?

Originally posted by bobby_t1
So S-Video does not go through this "3D comb filter"? Maybe that's obvious, but i'll ask anyways.

ANyone else on this thread have a Replay hooked up to their GWIII non-XBR and have tips?

Your S-Video signal was created with a comb filter in the Replay box. Read this for more info.

Comb Filter Info (http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/vidcomb.htm)

I would suggest you try what I suggested.

Originally posted by notcat2
So I was going to tweak again and use some of bsgoren's tips. This time using a Sound&Vision/Ovation Software dvd test pattern. It was an Anamorphic Wide screen Test pattern that was used. I basically had the pattern on screen, TV in Pro mode, and decided to hit "reset" on the remote. Bam! Things cleared up dramatically, I scrolled through the User Menu to compare what settings had changed and found it was really only one that mattered. It's the DRC Mode, now it was in the default of High Dens., I selected Cinemotion and immediately noticed the difference of clarity. So I guess it's not for everybody (UMR's setting of Cinemotion).

I went ahead into the Service Menu and returned SHOF setting to original 20, also tried bsgoren's suggestion of USHP to 63, MHLC to 0. I did notice best resolution is MHLC at 1 or 0, anything higher I start to see distortion on the Sharpness test pattern.

My wife was impressed at all the things I was doing to our set, she wanted to know how much more "tweaking" would an ISF Calibrator do. I told her I would find out from the Tweakers at AVS forum, So just how much more does the ISF job entail?

One last mention, special thanks for the Geometry categories, my set was overscanned (almost 5%), now it's much better. For reference only, here were my findings on that issue:

DHPH (Horizontal position) - old setting 103 - new setting 116
DVPH (Vertical position) - old setting 13 - new setting 33
MDHS (Horizontal size) - old setting 224 - new setting 202
MDVS (Vertical size) - old setting 128 - new setting 106

Someone let me know just what ISF entails, previous postings appear that a technician will connect a laptop computer and perform calibrations.

I'll get it done sometime within the next few months, most likely after I get a DVI capable DVD player. I'll then post some of the adjustments made.

thanks guys,

nc2

notcat2,

How much overscan do you have now? 0%?
I have a 5% overscan on the left, top, and right and 7% on the bottom.
I want to tweak this, but I am concerned about destroying my set.
Do these need to be set in a specific order: Set vertical size before changing the vertical position, etc... ?

Originally posted by gmike
notcat2,

How much overscan do you have now? 0%?
I have a 5% overscan on the left, top, and right and 7% on the bottom.
I want to tweak this, but I am concerned about destroying my set.
Do these need to be set in a specific order: Set vertical size before changing the vertical position, etc... ?

You need to be careful that you don't loose resolution either. This is most important on the HD input. You need HD test patterns to be able to see this clearly. I would shoot for no less than 3% overscan to avoid problems if it was me.

A couple of questions:

1) The tweaks from this thread are for Pro mode. If I go ahead and implement the changes exactly as specified, will my Vivid and Standard modes stay exactly the same as they are now, or will they be affected by some of the SM changes?

2) Has anyone figured out how to keep Mild off? These settings require it to be off, but from my experience Mild tends to sporadically turn itself on with the Pro mode. I can remember to turn it off manually, but I can't really expect others in my household to. I'd think there would be an SM setting to set the default Mild value for Pro.

DLiquid,

Most things will stay the same in the other modes. The gray scale (cuts and drives) appear to be global. Some of the optional ones (color decoder and geometry) are probably global as well.

I would experiment in DCP-User settings to try and find something to keep Mild Off.

Updated the main post to include a section on GWIII best practices to obtain the best PQ.

Thanks for the update UMR. I will have my TV set up soon and can't wait to tweak it.

In today's blurp you state "Don't worry about DVI".

I thought that by going w/ DVI on the Sony one would avoid an extra A/D conversion resulting in a better picture. Is this not the case in your experience?

I currently have a Denon 2900. In your opinion, would upgrading to the 5900 solely for DVI be a waste?

-Brian

Originally posted by umr
Updated the main post to include a section on GWIII best practices to obtain the best PQ.

Umr -

First, thanks for continuing to update your initial tweaks post. Second, my question has to with the following quote from your last update - "Feed all signals in at their native resolution (480p at 480p, 720p at 720p, 1080i at 1080i)."

I know this makes sense, and I'd love to be able to do this, but my Sony HD-200 SAT/OTA receiver's on-screen guide (which is great) only seems to look good when it's set at 1080i. The on-screen guide with all the other settings like Auto DVI (when the broadcast is not 1080i), 720p, and 480p all look like crap. Well, 720p looks good, but makes the guide too small and does not fill the screen, whereas the receiver set to 1080i format (all the time) looks sharp and fills the entire screen. 480p just looks bad because the guide at that SD format is just fuzzy and is stretched beyond the screen, so some of the guide's text is not viewable (I think my default GWIII 4x3 is set to Full for widescreen DVDs and 480i SD analog cable material and my HD-200 SD is set to Panorama wide mode for SD material - at the 1080i format).

So, I currently keep it at 1080i all the time, and on occassion, I'll switch it to 720p for OTA ABC broadcasts like MNF or ESPN-HD, but I usually do not see any difference in PQ between 1080i and 720p, so I typically just leave it at 1080i. Also, all the satellite and cable 480i and 480p sources look the same when it's set to 1080i.

So, is there anything else I can do to keep my HD-200 set to Auto DVI so it recognizes the native resolution and outputs it correctly to my GWIII at the proper resolution while keeping my on-screen guide the same (as 1080i) or does this really matter?

Thank you.

Originally posted by Bghead8che
...I currently have a Denon 2900. In your opinion, would upgrading to the 5900 solely for DVI be a waste?

-Brian

More than a waste. It might actually hurt. I have been playing with an LG LST-3510A. It appears to be a great HD Tuner and a sub-par DVD player. My DVD-XP30 smokes it.

The problems I have seen so far with the DVD player are:

Levels do not match HD. Resolution is lacking. Manual intervention on the TV is required to get the mode right (full, zoom...). It just seems quirky with a less than stellar picture.

Thanks!

Maybe someone has a 5900 and can comment?

bsgoren,

I am not sure that I follow your post. The best PQ will result from not scaling the signal twice. However, you need to setup your devices to do this is what I would do. I do not understand why this is hard for 720p and 1080i. I have not used that HD tuner so I don't know the ins and outs of doing this.

It is not uncommon on these sets for 480p and 480i to be strange on the DVI input. This is just another reason not to use the DVI input for those resolutions.

Originally posted by Bghead8che
Thanks!

Maybe someone has a 5900 and can comment?

Be careful about comments on this. Most have no experience with test patterns and quality players on component inputs.

Originally posted by gmike
notcat2,

How much overscan do you have now? 0%?
I have a 5% overscan on the left, top, and right and 7% on the bottom.
I want to tweak this, but I am concerned about destroying my set.
Do these need to be set in a specific order: Set vertical size before changing the vertical position, etc... ?

I probably now have only 1% overscan. I see no problems with HD broadcast. While watching CBS broadcast of the NFL playoffs I did notice the constant game Update (you know the Score with the Down and yardage to Go icon that is usually onscreen) was located a little lower than normal. But that was probable due to the fact I squeeze the picture down by 3-4%.

As far as what order to adjust, I pretty much did the order they appear on the tweak sheet. I then noticed that when adjusting MDHS (horizontal size) my Horizontal Position moved. Then you readjust that, and readjust the size again. Your basically adjusting the projected display Up and Down, Left and Right, for position, and Right side and Bottom side longer/taller for size.

Didn't have any problems, doesn't seem to matter what order you do them. I compare it to adjusting your computer monitor to fit your overall screen.

good luck,

nc2

I just stumbled across this thread and am excited to try the suggestions.

I have a question to ask first. In the instructions provided by UMR, he stated that you can use the THX test provided on the SW Episode 2 DVD to adjust your standard settings. I don't know if it is me or what, but I have trouble using those tests. It seems as if I second judge myself a lot when trying to attain the stated goals as instructed by the text instructions on each test and can't decide on what actually looks optimal to me. Are the tests (and goals) on the DVE DVD stated better to where when you reach the optimal setting it is more apparent?

Like I said it probably is just me and I have really bad eyesight and I just haven't allowed myself to accept it yet :( But I would like to think that my eyes/brain would let me distinguish the optimal picture.

Thanks in advance.

Mike

Miketek

Personal preference accounts for a lot. Ultimately, you have to decide what looks best to your eyes.

Just be reminded that some things such as grayscale (in the brighest blocks) and contrast interact.

Originally posted by umr
More than a waste. It might actually hurt. I have been playing with an LG LST-3510A. It appears to be a great HD Tuner and a sub-par DVD player. My DVD-XP30 smokes it.

The problems I have seen so far with the DVD player are:

Levels do not match HD. Resolution is lacking. Manual intervention on the TV is required to get the mode right (full, zoom...). It just seems quirky with a less than stellar picture.


I am surprised to find your comments on DVD with DVI outputs as sub-standard. Why would a unit such as the Bravo D1, which can output 720p/1080i, have less a PQ than a unit providing only 480p? Is is because the source, the DVD disc itself, has only so many lines of resolution and you now have the ''garbage in - garbage out" scenario? Over at the GWIII Owners thread I recall this quote from DooDoo.

"Progressive scan dvd players scale to 480p not 720p. The HD931, Bravo D1 and the Denon 5900 will scale to 720p or 1080i but the material still only contains 480 lines of resolution. The true benefit of these players is not the scaling but rather the all digital path to the television which reduces and/or eliminates artifacts normally introduced D/A or A/D conversion."


I recall that Sony's website, Sonystyle.com, has specs for 70"GWIII XBR, it has terminology listed in the specs that reads "Direct Digital II circuitry". I don't see the same description for the WE models. I know I saw it somewhere, can't remember exact website at Sony, contained only in the XBR's, a simplified schematic that showed a pure digital path.

I would hope that Hollywood will be coming out with a higher resolution product in the near future, I know that Terminator II was recently re-released in a HD format, although it had something to do with Windows Media player.

Can anyone actually comment on DVI quality on GWIII XBR?

thanks in advance,

nc2

notcat2

I got a LG LST3510a yesterday and I can confirm that DVD playback via DVI with my non xbr GWIII doesn't look as good as it does with one of my other DVD players on component. I've tried all resolutions via DVI and its just not there. Even if you can attribute lost resolution at 720P and 1080I due to double scaling, why would 480P look worst?

It may not be a matter of technology as much as how its implemented.

The HD tuner section of the 3510 is pretty good. You can get a non DVD model if you're wanting the tuner.

FYI - I changed my Replay from using Svideo to composite and that fixed PQ dramatically after implementing UMR's tweaks (except greyscale). So anyone using S-Video connections, I have verified that UMRs suggestion of switching to composite indeed works.

2 questions:

1) If I change the value for HUE in the user menu, does this affect any of the SM settings I have already saved?

2) I have a motorola DCT-5100 digital cable box hooked up via component. Should I be setting this to output 720p or 1080i for HD? My understanding is VERY few networks output 720p (ABC?) and most do 1080i. If this is true, i guess i should output 1080i?

Hello.
I have been following this thread with much interest as I received my 42" GWIII just before the holidays and I would like to improve it's performance.
Has anyone applied UMR's tweaks to their 42"?
Also, will the service menu changes ONLY affect the PRO setting and leave all of the others alone?
I would love to hear comments from any 42" owners!

Thanks!

Originally posted by bobby_t1
...1) If I change the value for HUE in the user menu, does this affect any of the SM settings I have already saved?

2) I have a motorola DCT-5100 digital cable box hooked up via component. Should I be setting this to output 720p or 1080i for HD? My understanding is VERY few networks output 720p (ABC?) and most do 1080i. If this is true, i guess i should output 1080i?

1) No.

2) I use 720p for ABC and 1080i for other HD broadcasts. I use 480p for non-HD broadcasts.

Originally posted by notcat2
I am surprised to find your comments on DVD with DVI outputs as sub-standard. Why would a unit such as the Bravo D1, which can output 720p/1080i, have less a PQ than a unit providing only 480p? Is is because the source, the DVD disc itself, has only so many lines of resolution and you now have the ''garbage in - garbage out" scenario? ....Can anyone actually comment on DVI quality on GWIII XBR?

thanks in advance,

nc2

The DVI input quaility on the GWIII XBR is nearly perfect. I have used test patterns at 720p along with D-Theater movies to confirm this.

DVI no more guarantees quality than does component versus S-Video. Many more things are important than just the connection from the player to the TV (MPEG Decoder, Deinterlacer...). The other side is true as well DVI does not necessarily mean poor quality either.

The problem is most people are using DVI because it is perceived to be inherently better. It can be, but the difference between DVI and what a high quality component connection is capable of is subtle. The quality of these inputs, the quality of the output from the device, and the quality of the source are what matters the most.

These sets are NOT 720p or 1080i. Any device that uses 480i source material (DVD's) and outputs something other than 480p is scaling the output. Scaling the signal twice is a BAD idea. Using the Bravo at 480p can provide nice images, but the thing is quirky. Using an XP30 can provide nice images, but it is not quirky and it does not use the only DVI input on the TV. You take your pick.

Originally posted by umr
2) I use 720p for ABC and 1080i for other HD broadcasts. I use 480p for non-HD broadcasts.
Is this a cable receiver you're talking about, umr, or is it a satellite receiver? What model?

I don't appear to have the option to change the output resolution. I was told (haven't verified) that the DVI output of the box is disabled. Of course, I'm not trying to use DVI for the sake of using DVI, I'm trying to use DVI for the sake of having all of my video devices connected simultaneously. Back to the original topic - are there any tuners that can switch output resolutions to match the source signal? Of course, I have no idea if the signal on my time warner cable is being scaled in-box or at their offices.

How do you set the resolution on your box? If you have to set it each time you change the channel, that could get tedious for channel surfers like me :-)

I have used a Samsung HD931 on my 60" WE via DVI and was not happy with the results. Too much contrast that I was not able to adjust satisfactory via the user controls. The width controls don't work with DVI and the SFIT on the player knocked out too much of the picture.

When I switched to 480P Component on the same player, the results were much better and I was able to contrl the width control again.

I don't know why the picture would be better with 480P component but those are the results I got.

BTW... the Samsung picture at 480P is definately better than a SONY Progressive DVD player I also had access to.

George

Originally posted by umr

2) I use 720p for ABC and 1080i for other HD broadcasts. I use 480p for non-HD broadcasts. I've had my 5100 since 01/02/04 and a GWIII since October and being a male, I change channels often. :D Given that, would it be best to leave the output setting at 720p or 1080i? I am leaning toward 720p but really appreciate all your contributions to these topics.

Originally posted by MrMike6by9
I've had my 5100 since 01/02/04 and a GWIII since October and being a male, I change channels often. :D Given that, would it be best to leave the output setting at 720p or 1080i? I am leaning toward 720p but really appreciate all your contributions to these topics.

It is BEST not to leave it in any output format. Most of the networks here alternate between 480p and 1080i. ABC alternates from 720p to 480p. The BEST PQ will result from using a decoder that supports NATIVE mode that will switch automatically. I would switch it manually if it does not, but heck I am a PQ fanatic.


I would choose 1080i if you want a compromise setting that will work the best for most true HD broadcasts.

Originally posted by naimis
Is this a cable receiver you're talking about, umr, or is it a satellite receiver? What model?

... I'm trying to use DVI for the sake of having all of my video devices connected simultaneously. Back to the original topic - are there any tuners that can switch output resolutions to match the source signal? ...

How do you set the resolution on your box? If you have to set it each time you change the channel, that could get tedious for channel surfers like me :-)

I am using an LG LST-3510A to do this. I do not know all the models that support Native mode. You need to look at the manuals to know.

I tried to obtain the same goal you have of using everything on DVI, but failed. The primary problem is level matching. It is nearly impossible to get all devices with the same picture, brightness, color, hue and sharpness levels. I used a Samsung SIR-T165 as well to try and do this. Between levels and scaling problems I gave up. I find it much easier to switch inputs on the TV and use the TV to do the scaling and level offsets.

My current box (LST-3510A) supports a native mode that switches automatically. My Samsung SIR-T165 required manual switching that was a pain. I usually left it on 1080i unless I was picky about PQ (ie. football on ABC).

QUOTE]Originally posted by umr

bsgoren,

I am not sure that I follow your post. The best PQ will result from not scaling the signal twice. However, you need to setup your devices to do this is what I would do. I do not understand why this is hard for 720p and 1080i. I have not used that HD tuner so I don't know the ins and outs of doing this.

It is not uncommon on these sets for 480p and 480i to be strange on the DVI input. This is just another reason not to use the DVI input for those resolutions.

Originally posted by umr
It is BEST not to leave it in any output format. Most of the networks here alternate between 480p and 1080i. ABC alternates from 720p to 480p. The BEST PQ will result from using a decoder that supports NATIVE mode that will switch automatically. I would switch it manually if it does not, but heck I am a PQ fanatic.


I would choose 1080i if you want a compromise setting that will work the best for most true HD broadcasts.

Umr -

What I was trying to say in my previous post was that the Sony HD-200 SAT/OTA receiver's on-screen guide looks best when set to 1080i and looks the worst when set to 480p (fuzzy and extends past the screen due to the stretch mode); 720p looks good, but in that resolution, the on-screen guide shrinks and does not fill the screen. When I have the HD-200 always set to 1080i, the on-screen guide looks great all the time (for all resolutions scaled to 1080i) and fills the screen properly. All the other channels look good too whether native resoltuon is 720p (like OTA ABC and ESPN-HD broadcasts) or regular D*TV or analog cable 480i or 480p SD/ED broadcasts scaled to 1080i. It's tough to see a real difference and I would rather not have to constantly switch resolution 'format' on my remote each time I turn the channel. The Auto DVI format setting on the receiver would be great if it adjusted the on-screen guide properly but it does not. However, I did want to know if I was missing something so that I could have it set to Auto DVI for automatic resolution (changes to native resolution each time I change the channel) with the on-screen guide being displayed properly for each resolution as well.

I implemented the tweaks last night.

The DCP-ADJ1 gray scale adjustments allowed me to crank the Picture setting higher than I had it before, but the Brightness I'd set before with DVE didn't need to be changed. I ended up using the same UPIC and UBRT as umr, which was very close to my old DVE settings.

I didn't make any user menu color adjustments, since blue looked very good through the DVE filters and red looked pretty good as well. Green looked horrible, but others have pointed out that may be the fault of the DVE green filter.

I didn't implement the UBOF change, since the recommended setting makes the picture darker. On the dark DVI HD stuff I was testing last night on the SIR-TS160, making it darker didn't seem like a good idea, so I stuck with the original setting of 35 for now.

Something very strange that I noticed when adjusting UBRT was that I had to change the value in order for the TV to use the setting. For example, I changed UBRT to 37 on my DVD input and saved it. Then I went to some other inputs to verify that the setting was global to all inputs. Then I went back to my DVD input. But looking at the gray scale ramp on DVE, I noticed that it was way too dark, as if UBRT was still set to the original value of 31. By manually changing UBRT from 37 to 38 and then back to 37 again, the picture brightened up and the gray scale ramp looked okay again. This is kind of funky behavior, and I suspect it has something to do with the UM settings differing from the SM DCP-USER settings (see next paragraph).

I got freaked out when I first exited the SM, since the Pro picture didn't look that good. Then I realized the UM didn't pick up my SM DCP-USER changes (the UM still had the old Pro settings). I had to hit the reset button on the remote for the UM to snap into place with the new settings. This is kind of alluded to in the instructions, but you may want to list this as a specific step, since it is extremely important.

It will take me a little while to get used to the softer look of these settings, since I'm used to watching Standard. I watched a bit of the Two Towers DVD last night and I definitely prefer the umr settings, but over the past few months I've gotten used to some of Standard's enhancements that give the picture a bit more (artificial?) definition.

A question about Standard mode and the Warm Color Temp. Now that I've made all of the DCP-ADJ1 gray scale adjustments while using Neutral Color Temp on Pro, does that also affect the Warm Color Temp on Standard? When switching between Standard/Warm and umr Pro/Neutral last night, Standard was definitely much warmer, so I'm wondering if I skewed my Standard/Warm gray scale by making the DCP-ADJ1 changes. I suppose I could check in the SM if the DCP-ADJ1 settings are shared by Standard/Warm and Pro/Neutral.

Thanks umr for all of your efforts in this thread. You really made the process very easy to follow.

DLiquid,

Which set were you using WE610 or XBR?

Originally posted by umr
2) I use 720p for ABC and 1080i for other HD broadcasts. I use 480p for non-HD broadcasts.

AFAIK, My motorola DCT-5100 box can only output one format for HD. SO i'll set it for 1080i then if I ever watch ABC HD then i'll switch to 720p.

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
DLiquid,

Which set were you using WE610 or XBR? 50WE610

Originally posted by DLiquid
...I got freaked out when I first exited the SM, since the Pro picture didn't look that good. Then I realized the UM didn't pick up my SM DCP-USER changes (the UM still had the old Pro settings). I had to hit the reset button on the remote for the UM to snap into place with the new settings. This is kind of alluded to in the instructions, but you may want to list this as a specific step, since it is extremely important...

A question about Standard mode and the Warm Color Temp. Now that I've made all of the DCP-ADJ1 gray scale adjustments while using Neutral Color Temp on Pro, does that also affect the Warm Color Temp on Standard? When switching between Standard/Warm and umr Pro/Neutral last night, Standard was definitely much warmer, so I'm wondering if I skewed my Standard/Warm gray scale by making the DCP-ADJ1 changes. I suppose I could check in the SM if the DCP-ADJ1 settings are shared by Standard/Warm and Pro/Neutral.

Thanks umr for all of your efforts in this thread. You really made the process very easy to follow.

I did not see what you saw on the sets I adjusted. Did you start out with Pro mode reset like the instructions said?

I do not believe changes to Neutral effect Warm.

Originally posted by umr
I did not see what you saw on the sets I adjusted. Did you start out with Pro mode reset like the instructions said?I followed the instructions precisely except for one thing. Before changing the value for a setting on an input/resolution, I recorded the default value of that setting for all inputs/resolutions. I did this so I would know all of the defaults before I started making changes. If I followed your instructions exactly, I might have sometimes written down a default value for one input/resolution that was not really the default, if it was shared by another input/resolution that I had already modified.

<Sorry, I intended to post this here, but somehow it started a new thread also>

I implemented UMR's SM changes, and I still find that Standard for both SD and DVD is clearer and a better picture than on Pro mode. Pro mode looks too much like you are looking through a haze as compared to Standard on DVD. With SD the difference between Pro and Standard is less obvious.


Questions:

1. Will UMR's changes (intended for Pro) work with tweaking Standard mode?
(By the way, I already applied the same changes to Standard anyways, and it is this tweaked Standard mode I am using to compare to the tweaked Pro mode).

2. Do you really have to press reset when in UM after implementing the SM changes while on Pro mode? Maybe that's why Pro looks so hazy?

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
2. Do you really have to press reset when in UM after implementing the SM changes while on Pro mode?I did. It should be easy for you to determine if you need to do this. For example, if you set USHP to 0 when in the SM, then when you bring up the UM in Pro you should see that the Sharpness is turned all the way down. If it's not, which it wasn't for me after following the step-by-step, then you can press reset on the remote and that will reset the UM with all of your DCP-USER changes.

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
[B...I implemented UMR's SM changes, and I still find that Standard for both SD and DVD is clearer and a better picture than on Pro mode. Pro mode looks too much like you are looking through a haze as compared to Standard on DVD. With SD the difference between Pro and Standard is less obvious. ... [/B]

Are you sure about it being clearer (sharper)? The big difference should be the gamma after tweaking. Standard has a larger gamma which increases the apparent contrast, but reduces the details in the blacks.

Originally posted by DLiquid
I did. It should be easy for you to determine if you need to do this. For example, if you set USHP to 0 when in the SM, then when you bring up the UM in Pro you should see that the Sharpness is turned all the way down. If it's not, which it wasn't for me after following the step-by-step, then you can press reset on the remote and that will reset the UM with all of your DCP-USER changes.

Very true. Don't forget to turn Mild off, Cinemotion, Reality 1 and set Clarity to 1 as well if you push reset again.

Umr,

I am glad you are back! I did not know you had left until I read the thread today. I guess I have been out of the real projection forum for a long time. I had to come back to your old thread looking for the intructions how to navigate the service menu but I could not find the old pdf file (I read why you took it down). I was glad that you started this thread because I had to take down my htpc that I was using through input 7 dvi and change the M1D1 settings to their original settings. I am now using a VOOM receiver through input 7.

I guess I just want to mention how valuable your knowledge is to all GW owners because even now that thread is gold to all of us who have a GWII. Since I stop posting here, I bought a 42" Samsung Plasma as well. Out of the three TVs I have, the Samsung DLP, the 42" Samsung Plasma (no hdtv), and the GWII. The GWII is the one, imo, that really rocks!! This does not mean that I am dissapointed with the others but it gives me great pleasure having them and comparing all. I might in the future buy another TV but for now, I am content. It's nice to hear that you still posting here. Your dedication and assistance to me and others is invaluable. Thanks again.

motjes2,

Glad to see you back. Without your help there would not have been a GWII pdf file. You might be interested in version 5.1 of the GWII tweaks. I'll mail you a copy.

Edited... Comment deleted...Sorry I ever asked...

Originally posted by motjes2
...Forgive me if you mentioned this before, did you get a chance to play or tweak a GWIII?

This thread is about tweaking a GWIII! both XBR and non-XBR.

Originally posted by motjes2
Is it better than the GWII picture wise in your opinion? If you have answered this before, don't bother to answer as I will probably come across it.

Read the first post in this thread.

bobby_t1,

What's your point? Man, relax! I am not trying to hijack the thread... I guess people get very sensitive when a friendly question is posted... Sorry to ask... but it was not my intention as an older avs member I know better than to poke my nose on other's people thread. Sorry I ever asked... Good bye... signing off. You can have the thread back bobby_t1.

UMR,

Awfully glad to have your wise counsel and wonderful feedback again, felt lost when you departed last "thread".

? Got my 60 WE610 in late October but did not get Dish (811 HD) until early Dec. Cable (std Analog Bresnan) fair to middlin though suprisingly good OOB direct to Sony. Dish great w/HD fantastic. Haven't been able to apply your tweaks yet, waiting for DVE (tried Sound/Vision in UM Std) with minor results. Noted in thread that someone (sorry, too many entries) suggested split screen, to look at SD/HD broadcast from Sat while applying the tweaks. Would you recommend? Generally what is best referrence source (I don't have D-VHS for true DVI (Vid 7)/Component (Vid 5/6) from DVE essentials - just std old Toshiba (not even component) DVD)?

Only other issue - using Marantz 7400 Receiver (which upconverts - seems to have pretty good conversion from S-Video/Component In/Out) to TV. Definitely eases source change (essentially 1 Component output to TV) and surround sound, but may not be optimum given your discussion re: 480i/p; 720p; 1080i for various programs or DVD's. Your thoughts would be most appreciated!

Thanks again for providing us all with your knowledge and insight, we're the lucky ones! Happy New Year!

Dave

UMR - perhaps you can explain...

If I feed the GWIII a 1080i signal from my HTPC vs a 720p signal, I get an image that is much more film like in the image representation. This is for both DVD and especially Dscaler DishNetwork content.

My eyes pick out artifacts and imperfections and the 1080i signal really appears to be a better delivery format for the TV.

Is it that Sony's internal scaler does that good of a job bringing the 1080i signal down to the set's fixed resolution?

BTW - your settings ROCK! Ive never seen so much detail is Shrek before. The colors and representation are spot on. My Mitz 65909 had great blacks but it never could show off the detail like this set can with your suggestions... I never saw the small things like dust clouds when a charater would hit the ground... but I can now!

Thanks,
Vidkidd

Originally posted by motjes2
bobby_t1,

What's your point? Man, relax! I am not trying to hijack the thread... I guess people get very sensitive when a friendly question is posted... Sorry to ask... but it was not my intention as an older avs member I know better than to poke my nose on other's people thread. Sorry I ever asked... Good bye... signing off. You can have the thread back bobby_t1.

I think you misread into my message.. i was just pointing out that this thread was about the GWIII adn you were asking UMR whether or not he had a chance to tweak it. Since this thread was about the GWIII (GW3) i wanted to emphasize to you it was in case you thought it was about the GWII (GW2). I often misread messages and confuse messages about GW2 with GW3.

So relax :)

Originally posted by vidkidd
BTW - your settings ROCK! Ive never seen so much detail is Shrek before. The colors and representation are spot on. My Mitz 65909 had great blacks but it never could show off the detail like this set can with your suggestions... I never saw the small things like dust clouds when a charater would hit the ground... but I can now!


Did you do all the changes including greyscale? just wondering because I've done them all except greyscale.

Originally posted by bobby_t1
I think you misread into my message.. i was just pointing out that this thread was about the GWIII adn you were asking UMR whether or not he had a chance to tweak it. Since this thread was about the GWIII (GW3) i wanted to emphasize to you it was in case you thought it was about the GWII (GW2). I often misread messages and confuse messages about GW2 with GW3.

So relax :)

I still do not understand how can my question(s) to UMR could be interpreted that I was asking about how to tweak the GWII when I was clearly asking about the GWIII and his own opinion about a comparison of the GWIII vs the GWII.

Again, let's move on... no offense taken... there are better things to do...:)

Originally posted by vidkidd
...Is it that Sony's internal scaler does that good of a job bringing the 1080i signal down to the set's fixed resolution?...

Yes.

Originally posted by Sommer3
...Haven't been able to apply your tweaks yet, waiting for DVE (tried Sound/Vision in UM Std) with minor results. Noted in thread that someone (sorry, too many entries) suggested split screen, to look at SD/HD broadcast from Sat while applying the tweaks. Would you recommend? Generally what is best referrence source (I don't have D-VHS for true DVI (Vid 7)/Component (Vid 5/6) from DVE essentials - just std old Toshiba (not even component) DVD)?

Only other issue - using Marantz 7400 Receiver (which upconverts - seems to have pretty good conversion from S-Video/Component In/Out) to TV. Definitely eases source change (essentially 1 Component output to TV) and surround sound, but may not be optimum given your discussion re: 480i/p; 720p; 1080i for various programs or DVD's. Your thoughts would be most appreciated!

Thanks again for providing us all with your knowledge and insight, we're the lucky ones! Happy New Year!

Dave

I would use DVE on D-VHS as the source for HD over firewire. I like more than one DVD. I use Avia and Jim Taylor's "DVD Demystified" the most and the flag sequence in VE. I like the Panasonic DVD-XP30 for DVD's.

The Sony must also convert the signals to component. I would guess it would be better at this than the Marantz, but you would loose some convenience. It is up to you.

Originally posted by umr
Very true. Don't forget to turn Mild off, Cinemotion, Reality 1 and set Clarity to 1 as well if you push reset again.

umr,

I take what I said back. After pressing reset, PRO rocks!

Question:

I find DRC = High and R/C at 1:100 better than your settings still. If I have a pretty good DVD player with a Faroudja chip, do I really need to put Cinemotion on?

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
umr,

I take what I said back. After pressing reset, PRO rocks!

Question:

I find DRC = High and R/C at 1:100 better than your settings still. If I have a pretty good DVD player with a Faroudja chip, do I really need to put Cinemotion on?

I did not try that combination so I am not positive Cinemotion will be better than that combination on interlaced. I would look at test patterns to know for certain. Luma & chroma frequency sweeps are good for this along with the Avia resolution pattern.

Sorry if this is too newbie of a question, but I'm confused on this point.

I've experienced the GWIII buzz (different thread, I know), but as part of the fix they just came back (after the component additions) and replaced the bulb. So, is there a desired burn-in period before doing the SM tweaks? If so, what is an appropriate period?

Also, UMR, how do you feel about the Panasonic RP56 DVD player for progressive (via component cables)?

Thanks,
Rich

Originally posted by samandnoah
... So, is there a desired burn-in period before doing the SM tweaks? If so, what is an appropriate period?

Also, UMR, how do you feel about the Panasonic RP56 DVD player for progressive (via component cables)?

Thanks,
Rich


The only thing that might need a little time is the gray scale adjustment. I have not seen much shift in color, but you could wait 100 hours for that if you want to.

The cheap player I looked at had some problems. You can check it out with the Avia resolution pattern to see if yours is good or not.

The only negative thing I notice now since implementing UMR's changes is a flicker on some commercials (it goes away when it changes to other commercials/shows) on analog. But this is most likely due to the poor signal of analog or SD. Haven't seen it at 480p at all.

PM me if you want a barely used LST-3510A.

Umr - did you (or anyone else for that matter) figure out why the Mild Mode in Pro mode is reverting back to On when it's been set to off? This is happening to my GWIII, and it's very annoying. I know the Vivid mode has this grayed out and not even available to turn on. Can this be done in the SM for Pro mode? Thanks.

Originally posted by bsgoren
Umr - did you (or anyone else for that matter) figure out why the Mild Mode in Pro mode is reverting back to On when it's been set to off? This is happening to my GWIII, and it's very annoying. I know the Vivid mode has this grayed out and not even available to turn on. Can this be done in the SM for Pro mode? Thanks.

I passed along some ideas to someone else, but I don't know what will stop it from coming on.

UMR

Thanks for the feedback. I've read w/some interest your opinion re: Bravo D1 vs other DVI DVD's etc. Have tried to find an XP30 but appears to be out of production. What is the equivalent replacement Panny or ??? that you'd recommend?

Also, just remembered that I have access to JVC - DRU100 (old Dish 5000) D-VHS Tape, could that be used to send out DVE for "tweaking" even if it won't be operable in system long-term?

Dave

Originally posted by Sommer3
UMR

Thanks for the feedback. I've read w/some interest your opinion re: Bravo D1 vs other DVI DVD's etc. Have tried to find an XP30 but appears to be out of production. What is the equivalent replacement Panny or ??? that you'd recommend?

Also, just remembered that I have access to JVC - DRU100 (old Dish 5000) D-VHS Tape, could that be used to send out DVE for "tweaking" even if it won't be operable in system long-term?

Dave

I don't believe that old JVC is compatible with D-Theater so it should not work for DVE.

The XP30 is out of production. Panasonic does not make a high quality deck at this time. I would look at this link for more info on what to get. I would check out the latest Denon and Pioneer decks. I am not really paying much attention to DVD players at this time though. I am happy with the XP30 for that format and have no desire to switch.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=112

Originally posted by umr
I passed along some ideas to someone else, but I don't know what will stop it from coming on.
The only thing I have found that stops Mild Mode from coming back on is to just never switch out of Pro Mode. I use Pro (tweaked, of course) for all inputs. This doesn't allow me, of course, to have optimized settings for all inputs, but it looks pretty good all around to me. Note that just switch to Vivid or Standard for a particular Input (e.g. Video 1) tends to cause Mild Mode to come back on in Pro. I don't know why this is, but it does kind of suck.

Originally posted by vidkidd
Is it that Sony's internal scaler does that good of a job bringing the 1080i signal down to the set's fixed resolution?

My cable provider finally added support in the STB software for pass-through signals on the DVI connector. I have to say that the picture, now that the scientific atlanta box isn't scaling the image, is about 100x better than when the SA box was. Seriously.

Originally posted by naimis
My cable provider finally added support in the STB software for pass-through signals on the DVI connector. I have to say that the picture, now that the scientific atlanta box isn't scaling the image, is about 100x better than when the SA box was. Seriously.

naimis,

What SA box do you have? I have the 3250HD and may need to run out and grab a DVI cable tomorrow morning!

Originally posted by taroy1
naimis,

What SA box do you have? I have the 3250HD and may need to run out and grab a DVI cable tomorrow morning!

This is indeed the 3250HD, but you should check with your local cable provider to see if they even have the DVI port enabled with some kind of picture mode select where you can choose to pass the signal through unadulterated.

UMR

Isn't cinemotion intended to be used to smooth out movement in material that's been converted from film to digital?

If that's the case, what about movies such as the latest Star Wars that was actually recorded in digital. Would it be better to not use cinemotion?

UMR

I had the BZZZ and set not powering up. So had Sony fix put on it. While talking to Tech I mention I was looking to have ISF Calibrated. He said something about Sony does not support ISF and settings that Sony has on TV now are to give TV the optimal life. IF you change settings you will get better picture but decrease life of TV. I do not believe him but would like to here from an expert.

Thanks again to UMR for the detailed steps, and the rest of you for your thoughts as well. Doing the SM adjustments was not nearly as intimidating as I had feared. Things definitely look better, but have a couple of questions.

1) I was using the THX Optimizer on Finding Nemo (don't have Avia). For the Sharpness adjustments, this is the test they referred to as Monitor Performance, correct? If so, can someone pls help me understand a little better what "ideal" is? The description on the screen was not clear enough for me. What is "edgy" vs. "overly-enhanced"? I went up and down the range from 0 to 63 on USHP, and had myself convinced of multiple different settings!

2) Though not part of the UMR's step-by-step tweaks for newbies, I noticed that when I went through the THX tests for 4x3 and 16x9 aspect ratio set-ups that the left edge of the outer box was just off the screen (actually, very slight amount of the top left edge was barely visible) on both tests. Looked like there was some room to spare on the right side. Does this mean I need to shift my image to the right? Do I do that in the MID1 category, using DHPH? I saw these mentioned in UMR's original post, but there was also a warning, so I'm a little nervous to experiment.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Rich

Originally posted by JimP
UMR

Isn't cinemotion intended to be used to smooth out movement in material that's been converted from film to digital?

If that's the case, what about movies such as the latest Star Wars that was actually recorded in digital. Would it be better to not use cinemotion?

The DRC settings I posted looked the best to me with test patterns. I don't trust the words Sony puts to describing these different settings. Star Wars II looked very good to me with these settings.

Originally posted by bubblegum1647
UMR

I had the BZZZ and set not powering up. So had Sony fix put on it. While talking to Tech I mention I was looking to have ISF Calibrated. He said something about Sony does not support ISF and settings that Sony has on TV now are to give TV the optimal life. IF you change settings you will get better picture but decrease life of TV. I do not believe him but would like to here from an expert.

I think he did not want to endorse ISF because of liability problems. The manufacturers have also been somewhat at odds with some of the ISF folks because they will talk about the problems with their products.

The comment about decreasing life of the TV goes against what I know.

Originally posted by samandnoah
....1) I was using the THX Optimizer on Finding Nemo (don't have Avia). For the Sharpness adjustments, this is the test they referred to as Monitor Performance, correct? If so, can someone pls help me understand a little better what "ideal" is? The description on the screen was not clear enough for me. What is "edgy" vs. "overly-enhanced"? I went up and down the range from 0 to 63 on USHP, and had myself convinced of multiple different settings!

2) Though not part of the UMR's step-by-step tweaks for newbies, I noticed that when I went through the THX tests for 4x3 and 16x9 aspect ratio set-ups that the left edge of the outer box was just off the screen (actually, very slight amount of the top left edge was barely visible) on both tests. Looked like there was some room to spare on the right side. Does this mean I need to shift my image to the right? Do I do that in the MID1 category, using DHPH? I saw these mentioned in UMR's original post, but there was also a warning, so I'm a little nervous to experiment.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Rich

1) Sharpness is difficult to set correctly with the THX optimizer pattern. I would keep it low if you have any doubts. Avia is much better for this.

2) MID1 is only dangerous if you get too aggressive. You can put the THX pattern on the screen and adjust MID1 the direction of the change will be obvious once you change the parameter. Don't shoot for less than about 3% overscan and you should be OK. With THX if you only center it you should be fine. Judging overscan with that pattern is difficult.

I haven't done the greyscale tweaks yet. Can someone who has kept the defaults then applied UMRs values as tweaks let me know how much of a difference they saw?

Originally posted by bobby_t1
I haven't done the greyscale tweaks yet. Can someone who has kept the defaults then applied UMRs values as tweaks let me know how much of a difference they saw?

Here is an answer from JimP.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3132499#post3132499

I got my KF50We610III back from the shop for the lamp issue but didn't turn it on since it had been in a very cold truck. After an hour, I turned it on and my gorgeous picture has now been replaced by an ugly mess of almost an overdriven picture. It has a look of the solarization effect with all skin tones and anything else shown in other than dimly lit scenes. I made sure all color, contrast, and other user accessible picture controls were returned to the middle or default values but nothing helps. The shop was closed before I turned it on. Does any one have any idea what might be wrong? Did these people damage the alignment of the lcd, mirrors or something catastrophic like that? I am just sick about this. I had a gorgeous picture but a TV that wouldn't turn on some of the time without screwing around. Now I have a TV that turns on after the third green blink but is unwatchable. Note that the bad image remains even after letting the TV sit overnight so that it is unlikely a condensation issue .

Thanks,

Jeff

idttywlm

Sorry to hear about your misfortune.

By any chance, are you using component cable? If so, you might want to double check to see if plugged into the correct connectors at both ends.

I've had the 60XBR950 for about 27 days now and have noticed there is a green glare on the lower right hand side of the screen and a blue glare on the lower right hand side of the screen. This is most noticable when the room is darker and it does show in some of the darker sceens and when I switch on an imput that a source is not on. Also when I put on AVIA the crosshatch pattern I see that the convergence is off some. I've tried adjusting the color, brightness, picture, and hue but no help. tried the different picture modes also. Has anyone else seen this on thier 60XBR950 and is the a way to adjust this in the service menu.

Thanks in advance

Jim,

No, I actually have 4 different inputs to the TV since all my gear is located downstairs under the staircase in a rack (new house with wiring). I don't have HD yet but have regular cable going to the cable input, component RGB from the DVD player, S-video from the DirecTV sat receiver and composite from the VCR. Also send audio out back down to the amp. Nothing was changed and I checked all the connections and tried each one individually with the results the same regardless of source.

The image also seems to have pinkish cast to it especially noticeable with snow scenes.

Jeff

Originally posted by jrcalver
I've had the 60XBR950 for about 27 days now and have noticed there is a green glare on the lower right hand side of the screen and a blue glare on the lower right hand side of the screen. This is most noticable when the room is darker and it does show in some of the darker sceens and when I switch on an imput that a source is not on. Also when I put on AVIA the crosshatch pattern I see that the convergence is off some. I've tried adjusting the color, brightness, picture, and hue but no help. tried the different picture modes also. Has anyone else seen this on thier 60XBR950 and is the a way to adjust this in the service menu.

Thanks in advance

The optical/mechanical convergence is not user adjustable. The uneven gray scale may be adjustable if you opened the optical block and squared up the polarizers. I am not aware of anyone doing it on this set. Here is how someone did it on an early model Sony LCD Projector.

VPL-W400 Internals (http://www.super-klaus.de/w400e.htm)

Image Revision adjustment in the user menu might help with apparent convergence problems if it is electronic in nature.

Has anyone tried a neutral density filter on a GWIII to increase contrast/ improve blacks?

UMR
Thank you for posting these SM Tweeks, I've kept a printout for using it sometimes in the future (when I have had some experience, time and most of all courage to get into the SM mode and tweak)

I was playing around with the User settings last night a bit, for the first time (apart from implementing Dliquid's User settings initially) with my 60WE610.

I, for the heck of it, tried keeping almost all the values (color, Brightness etc) the same on PRO, VIVID and STANDARD mode, and to my surprise, the picture was still different on each of these moded.............that has got me thinking whether while changing the modes, the output from the Bulb changes, or there are some other settings in the SM, that keep the three modes different, even if most of the values in these modes are matched by the user ?

Secondly It appears to me that somehow the brightness level of the set has come down from when it was absolutely new. This could just be my perception. (Pro or Standard modes appear Dim - Vivid appears bright and good)

I ve used the Set for about a month now with about 5-6 Hrs of use per day.

The set otherwise is working great, with not a single buzz ever (all I hear is a Click and 3 blinks later its "ON" with half (?) a grey stuck pixel.

Has anyone else felt the picture to be Dimmer than when they first started watching?

Any explanation on the difference in PRO/Standard/Vivid mode a above ?

Originally posted by jrcalver
I've had the 60XBR950 for about 27 days now and have noticed there is a green glare on the lower right hand side of the screen and a blue glare on the lower right hand side of the screen. This is most noticable when the room is darker and it does show in some of the darker sceens and when I switch on an imput that a source is not on. Also when I put on AVIA the crosshatch pattern I see that the convergence is off some. I've tried adjusting the color, brightness, picture, and hue but no help. tried the different picture modes also. Has anyone else seen this on thier 60XBR950 and is the a way to adjust this in the service menu.

Thanks in advance

JRCALVER - Many are reporting this same greenish haze issue . I have the WE610 model and have the same greenish haze in the lower right-hand corner. However, when I read the Sony Owners Manual on page 7 - topic "About the LCD Projection TV" for the model WE610, Sony indicates that this is a know issue with LCD projection TVs and you should not be concerned about it.

Also if you search the Sony Knowledge Q&A section you will get the following:

SYMPTOM:
Pixels on the LCD projection television appear as bright or dark spots.

RESOLUTION:

In all LCDs there may be a small number of pixels that do not change color. This is a normal occurrence for all LCDs from all manufacturers. Bright or dark spots may be more prominent while viewing an all-white or all-black screen, but are often not noticeable under normal operation.

Originally posted by starlights
Has anyone else felt the picture to be Dimmer than when they first started watching?

Any explanation on the difference in PRO/Standard/Vivid mode a above ? [/B]

I've got the same set. I don't know if the picture is actually dimmer of if it's just a matter of getting use to it. I've had the same thoughts a couple of weeks ago. I've had my set for about two months and logged over 600 hours. Yes, I need a life. :)

As to the modes being different, the settings for each mode also have service menu settings that are mode specific, therefore making them all the same in the user menu won't result in having the same picture.

When you get into doing service menu adjustments, I'd recommend making the extra effort to learn what each setting is doing, not just doing it. This way, if your DVI input is too this or too that, then you'll have a way knowing what to do to correct it.

Kenni_o

Isn't the green fog an indication of a misaligned polarizer?

Originally posted by JimP
UMR

Isn't cinemotion intended to be used to smooth out movement in material that's been converted from film to digital?

If that's the case, what about movies such as the latest Star Wars that was actually recorded in digital. Would it be better to not use cinemotion? I believe that Star Wars II was "filmed" using HD cameras using a 24 fps frame rate, so Cinemotion still applies.

There has been some discussion on the forum about what DVD player might be a suitable substitute for the Panny XP30 (discontinued). Today I did a comparison of a "new" XP30 and the Progressive output from a Samsung HD931. They both have the Faroudja chip.

By using various material and the DVE CD, I cannot find a significant difference. The HD931 did show all 3 bars on the Pluge test where the Panny only showed 2... but I am not sure that is significant. Picture quality, etc. were comparable. I did like the remote better on the Panny but remotes are something one gets used to anyhow.

Please note... while the Samsung HD931 does have DVI output capabilities, I would NOT recommend using it.. The picture quality is no better and it "failed" the brightness test using the DVE pluge pattern (no darkness bars were visible!).

So.. if you want a relatively inexpensive/good CD player and cannot get the Panny, I would recommend trying the Samsung HD931.

FYI... I will be selling one of these unit on ebay soon.. whichever one I can get more $$ for.

Thanks,

George

Originally posted by JimP
Kenni_o

Isn't the green fog an indication of a misaligned polarizer?

JimP - If that's the problem then it's a common with all manufactures as Sony is indicating. I found the following problem report regarding Sanyo PLC-XW20 LCD projector:

Problems
Minor 'screen-door' effect (LCD pixellation artifact) with screen size set larger than 100 inches -- more noticeable with light (white) screen colors and sitting closer than 60 inches from screen. Recommend keeping distance from screen as least equal to screen size.

Faint green haze in lower left corner (unit used inverted on ceiling) that was present from hours ~20 to ~40 but has resolved completely without any intervention and was only a mild bother when present. (Call to Sanyo repair suggested this was permanent and part of the 'uniformity' rating of this unit.) Picture back to normal.

Exact same problem reported for the Sony GWIII. Seems the Sanyo "haze" just went away.

The un-even grayscale across the picture area is the only complaint I have about this set. For me its an area of dark blue in the upper middle that throws things off, making black become blue in that area. When I complained to a service tech he went around and checked 7-8 sets, both WE and XBR, and reported that they all had this background non-uniformity issue in one area of the screen or another. Don't want to fiddle with internals myself and void the warranty. So what's a poor GWIII owner to do? As my wife says, "Just ignore it and enjoy the set!"

HDD

Originally posted by HardDrive
The un-even grayscale across the picture area is the only complaint I have about this set. For me its an area of dark blue in the upper middle that throws things off, making black become blue in that area. When I complained to a service tech he went around and checked 7-8 sets, both WE and XBR, and reported that they all had this background non-uniformity issue in one area of the screen or another. Don't want to fiddle with internals myself and void the warranty. So what's a poor GWIII owner to do? As my wife says, "Just ignore it and enjoy the set!"

HDD

I totally agree with your wife - I'm just going to enjoy mine too. Seems other LCD projectors have the same issue. Guess it just goes with the technology. My only problem is the slight green haze seen in the lower right corner when the black/gray bars are visible. When I'm in full screen I don't see it anyway. If that's the price you pay to get that great HD picture, I'll just live with it!

For those asking about DVD players, I have the Bravo D1 and the
Sony KF42WE610. I have the Bravo set to 720P and use the DVI
connection. The picture is superb. Seems a close call between 480P
and 720P settings - 720P is a tad better. Cannot tell much difference
on the 1080I setting either - they are all close. But I would pick 720P.
Never tried the component connections on the D1 - was told not to
bother. Cannot imagine a better picture via the DVI connection though.
BTW - I live in the Sugar Land area of Houston. UMR - if you would like to
see a good Bravo D1 via DVI to GWIII let me know - no problem.
(heck - maybe it will look like crap to you)

Plus thanks for all of the time spent on this thread. I'll have to find enough
nerve to try some tweaking. Also use RCA ATSC11 OTA STB via DVI
connection set at 1080I. Just began playing with component connections
set at 480I to allow me to play around with the Advanced Video
DRC modes on the Sony for SD material.

Originally posted by wtn
For those asking about DVD players, I have the Bravo D1 and the
Sony KF42WE610. I have the Bravo set to 720P and use the DVI
connection. The picture is superb. Seems a close call between 480P
and 720P settings - 720P is a tad better. Cannot tell much difference
on the 1080I setting either - they are all close. But I would pick 720P.
Never tried the component connections on the D1 - was told not to
bother. Cannot imagine a better picture via the DVI connection though.
BTW - I live in the Sugar Land area of Houston. UMR - if you would like to
see a good Bravo D1 via DVI to GWIII let me know - no problem.
(heck - maybe it will look like crap to you) ...

Thanks for the offer, but I have seen a D1. They can look fine, but are quirky and use the only DVI input on the TV. I see no reason to own one.

So, as someone mentioned in a recent post, newbies doing adjustments in SM would be well advised to understand what each of the categories and items is really impacting, rather than just blindly implementing the recommended tweaks (or perhaps to better tweak to individual tastes).

I spent a fair amount of time this weekend trying umr's tweaks (making sure to record all settings *before* making any adjustments), and he has been most gracious and generous in answering my questions. This was my first time in the SM, so I now understand some of the items I've altered, and how they interact, but how do I take the next step?

How do I learn more about the categories and impacts? What are the resources people use? Do the Service Manuals spell out what each item does?

Thanks,
Rich

Originally posted by samandnoah
...How do I learn more about the categories and impacts? What are the resources people use? Do the Service Manuals spell out what each item does?

Thanks,
Rich

I would suggest you search the net and this forum for more info, but there is precious little on these puppies. The *************** is also another place to look. The service manuals are of little value except for detailing how the memory is laid out. Unless, you can find information on specific chips from model numbers in the manual.

You would be better off trying to understand what an accurate gray scale and color decoder is and how to achieve it.

Discovering what every item in the service menu does is probably impossible without some serious help from Sony.

Just tried UMR's tweaks over the weekend and really liked what it did to my DVD PQ. In every case except one, my values after using the THX setup were very close to the one's UMR posted for the WE set he tweaked. The one major difference was the USHP setting. With the set that UMR tweaked, he wound up with it being at 0. If I got much below 25, my whites got very washed out. This was very noticable on things like the menu screen of LOTR: Two Towers with the parchment background and black lettering and, when I moved over to SD (through composite), on my Tivo menu.

When I was performing the tweaks and was using the THX setup, this was the one value that I saw very little change in the patterns on the setup screen as I moved up and down the value range, but would see big changes once I moved out of the THX setup. Anyone have a similar experience?

Ken,

Yea it almost looks like some kind of internal reflection and it's only noticable at night and then only slightly. I have no dead pixals and the picture is beautiful. So I have decided to enjoy the set and quit being anal.

John

Originally posted by jrcalver
Ken,

Yea it almost looks like some kind of internal reflection and it's only notable at night and then only slightly. I have no dead pixals and the picture is beautiful. So I have decided to enjoy the set and quit being anal.

John

John - I didn't know if you saw my previous post about the Sanyo projector, but the reviewer also had seen the green fog. So it must be a common issue. I've noticed that the greenish haze is not always as visible even in the same light. So I too will just live with it.

Originally posted by naimis
The most obvious difference was looking at F-Zero, where the engine glow was somewhat striped in the interlaced mode, but it was a fuzzy blob in progressive.

I came across an article about the chroma upsampling error here:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_2/dvd-benchmark-special-report-chroma-bug-4-2001.html

I haven't finished reading the entire article, but the pictures of the manifestations of the problem pretty closely reflect what I see on my GWIII. I've seen it both from interlaced game console signals (480i component) and in the pioneer logo from my DVD player on power-up (480i component). But only those two sources/signals.

On a related note, I've got an XP30 being sent to me to replace the pioneer DV-340 (which is interlaced only). I'll be showing the superbit version of "The Fifth Element" for a few friends this weekend. UMR: Any recommendations for how to set up the XP30 for the best viewing experience with these sets? :-)

I just hooked up my XBR 60 today.

I have a Denon 2900. Would you guys recommend setting the player to Progressive or interlaced for starters?

Thanks!

-Brian

Originally posted by naimis
....UMR: Any recommendations for how to set up the XP30 for the best viewing experience with these sets? :-)

Calibrate the input with the tweaks using this player.

Use component cables.

Enable the progressive output.

Set the video output mode to 480p.

Set the transfer mode for the progressive output to Auto1.

Use the Normal picture mode.

2nd Question (of many to come).

I assume that the "Warm" color setting is the best initial setting (i.e. the closest to 6500K).

-Brian

Bghead8che,

Did you read the first post in this thread?

I did.

I did not, however, see your recommended setting for the color temp.

<<Mild - Off (improves resolution)
Advanced Video - Cinemotion, Reality (1), Clarity (1) (slight improvement in resolution)
White Balance - Increase blue bias to ~75%, Decrease blue gain to ~60% (improves gray scale XBR version only)>>

Also, how can you recommend a increasing the blue bias to 75% and reducing the gain if each and every TV are different? Or is this just ballpark?

Thanks in advance.

-Brian

Originally posted by Bghead8che
...Also, how can you recommend a increasing the blue bias to 75% and reducing the gain if each and every TV are different? Or is this just ballpark?

Thanks in advance.

-Brian

Those are what I ended up with on one TV. Here is what I recommended.

The method I used to adjust gray scale is only going to be valid on these sets because I used red, green and blue ratios based on my set which uses very similar devices. I also did the final cleanup by eye balling it based on my experience of looking at D65. Unless we can figure out how to turn off the panels in these sets it will be very difficult to accurately adjust the gray scale.

I used an AEMC CA813 light meter, AVIA colored filters and the gray ramp on THX Optimizer. I adjusted the drives and cuts until the brightest square on the right and the next to dimmest square on the right measured in the following ratios. Blue is 6.84% of Green, Red is 61.8% of Green. I then tweaked the red drive a little after looking at some gray ramps on DVE on D-VHS. This resulted in a very nice looking gray instead of the too blue neutral or too red warm we started with.

<<57. If you skipped the complex color temperature adjustment go to the user menu and pick the color temperature that makes the gray ramp look as close to gray as possible (warm is usually the best). Go back to step 37 if you changed anything on gray scale.>>

Found it (buried)!

My XBR sure looks washed out in Pro Mode w/ no changes. Very little contrast w/ poor black levels. Hope I can tweak it!

My set is brand new. How long should I wait before I make the service menu changes? Should I burn the set in or just dive in and make the changes?

Originally posted by Bghead8che
My set is brand new. How long should I wait before I make the service menu changes? Should I burn the set in or just dive in and make the changes?

There is no reason to wait. The gray scale may shift a little if you do it early, but you can always revist it if you don't like how it looks later.

umr,

where can i see a quick compilation of um tweeks, not yet ready to try the sm ones...

I am new to this forum which I have been reading with great interest as I am soon to receive a 70XBR950.

I have a Sony KV-32XBR250 which I did several tweaks on using the service menu (which made incredible improvements in PQ), so I am appreciate having UMRs info available here.

I'd like to learn more about the dangers of the geometry adjustments on the GWIIIs. On the KV-32XBR250 I shrank the image size til the raster edges were visible then increased the size to hide the edges. Being a CRT the best I could achieve was a 5% horizontal overscan without the raster edge showing on one corner. I left the vertical overscan near the same in order to maintain geometry. I am hoping for better with the LCD.

I may have missed reading a post on this thread, or may be misunderstanding the step, but I am not sure what the danger of being to aggressive on adjusting the image size is. My impression from what UMR has previously posted is that it does something that once done, is undoable, using the service menu.

I just want to make sure that I fully understand what the risk is before I attempt the adjustment.

Thanks

What is a raster edge?

Isn't it as simple as what you said about adjusting it by moving the edges of the image to the edge of the actual screen on the TV for each side?
Do I need to really worry about if horizontal is proportionate to vertical? Wouldn't the actual TV screen dimensions take care of that if for example I was on Wide Zoom on SD and performed the above noted procedure for geometry settings in SM?

I'd also like to know about the mysterious dangers of the SM geometry adjustments.

UMR,

On Input 2 I am using a Direct TV receiver (Standard Def only). Woud you still recommend the "Progressive" setting under the Advanced UM?

Thanks!

-Brian

What is a raster edge?


I believe that term raster is used for cathode ray tubes to express the area scanned by the electron gun. Normally the electron gun scans well past the edge of the screen creating "overscan". From what I saw on my old Sony, the raster sides were not perfectly straight, and did not cover the entire overscan pattern from the AVIA DVD. Thats what prevented me getting any better than 5% overscan.

I suspect that digital display devices such as LCDs and DLPs are capable of showing the entire DVD image. Playing a DVD on my computer which has an LCD screen shows the entire DVD image, top to bottom, side to side, which is actually too much because a small amount of the sides is actually supposed to be cropped. It often makes the side edges of a film or video image visible on the screen.

I'm not sure that the term raster applies to an LCD display. Please feel free to correct me, as this is just from memory of what I have read in past years.

Originally posted by bladefan
umr,

where can i see a quick compilation of um tweeks, not yet ready to try the sm ones...

They are in the procedure. Just replace UPIC with Picture, UBRT with Brightness, and USHP with sharpness then skip the rest in the service menu. I believe these values must be calibrated not set the same set to set.

Originally posted by KC-Technerd
...I'd like to learn more about the dangers of the geometry adjustments on the GWIIIs. ... My impression from what UMR has previously posted is that it does something that once done, is undoable, using the service menu. ..

The danger is that you will see no picture if you go too far. It is reversable if you save the settings, but it is the only one in the tweaks post that has the possibility of rendering no picture. You can also go so far that the resolution is impacted. I would not go less than about 3% overscan. The improvement from this adjustment is so subtle I don't recommend it unless you have good test patterns like the Avia Wide Screen resolution pattern. VE is flawed and THX optimizer is difficult to judge. DVE should work as well.

The no picture problem can also appear later with different devices. This has been more of a problem with 480p on the DVI input.

Originally posted by Bghead8che
UMR,

On Input 2 I am using a Direct TV receiver (Standard Def only). Woud you still recommend the "Progressive" setting under the Advanced UM?

Thanks!

-Brian

I recommend Cinemotion not Progressive. That assumes you have done all the service menu tweaks and you are using Pro mode. I have not tested all possible combinations of service menu and user menu settings.

UMR

Thanks for the info. I'm now pretty confident about making those adjustments.

I too found that the overscan pattern on VE was flawed, actually off center. Overall I prefer the AVIA disc for video adjustments.

I put in some of the SM tweaks last night (on my KF42WE610). These are the changes I made:

RDRV changed from 140 to 131
BDRV changed from 140 to 102
GCUT changed from 255 to 242
MVLS changed from a 1 to a 0
MHLC changed from a 3 to a 1

I definitely prefer Pro mode now - before, it kind of had the appearance of 'smearing vaseline on the camera,' even with Mild OFF. So it was a tradeoff, improved greyscale for decreased clarity. Now, the clarity is almost as good as the default standard mode.

I can't say I've noticed any difference in greyscale or 'true black' in PRO, however. Are there settings which further reduce the dim hue that blacks currently display?

My UM settings for PRO are:

Picture: 88% (56 ticks)
Brightness: 64% (41 ticks)
Color: 53% (34 ticks)
Hue: 47% (30 ticks)
Sharpness: 50% (32 ticks)
Color Temp: Warm
NR: Off
Mild Mode: Off

Originally posted by DLiquid
I didn't implement the UBOF change, since the recommended setting makes the picture darker. On the dark DVI HD stuff I was testing last night on the SIR-TS160, making it darker didn't seem like a good idea, so I stuck with the original setting of 35 for now.I might venture back into the SM this weekend and I'd like to know more about the UBOF setting. Here's what's posted in this thread by umr:
UBOF changed from 35 to 30 (corrects black level error between SD and HD)72. Select the DVI input or input with brightness level problems with the TV/Video button (it must be on).
73. Press 1 or 4 until you see UBOF below DCP-USER in the upper left corner.
74. Record all of the information on the screen for this input and parameter.
75. Make sure you are on the correct parameter and then press 3 or 6 until the blacks look correct. This is best done with dark scenes or test material like DVE on D-VHS.HD on DVI needs to have UBOF adjusted to correct for a brightness problem on DVI. Unless you have DVE on D-VHS you will not be able to use a test pattern on HD. I would suggest you start with the UBOF value I listed and adjust from there based on some dark shows.So what exactly is this brightness level problem, that DVI is too bright? On my set it sometimes seems that DVI is too dark, and I haven't changed UBOF yet. I notice that by default UBOF is set to 35 for all 720p and 1080i sources, yet your recommendations apply only to DVI. Why is that?

Any more info you could provide on this setting would be greatly appreciated. I think my HD via DVI could still be improved, but I have no way to view test patterns on DVI, so I'm interested to know more about what I'm doing by adjusting the UBOF setting.

umr: First off, I appreciate the effort on your part to share your knowledge and the patience in answering question. Also, as a GWIII owner, I'm glad you came back. :cool:

Out of the box was pretty good for me using pro for both dvd and hdtv. I blindly tweaked um only based on the thread here.

Now armed with DVE, I will see if any other changes are really warranted on my set.

My question, and I may be completely out to lunch, but was there not a setting for high altitude in the set up menu? What difference could this possibly make? :confused:

I believe the Altitude setting is for high altitude areas (obviously) that cause your TV to make a buzzing sound.

If you don't have a buzz don't worry about the setting.


-Brian

Originally posted by Bghead8che
I believe the Altitude setting is for high altitude areas (obviously) that cause your TV to make a buzzing sound.

If you don't have a buzz don't worry about the setting.


-Brian

I have "the" buzz, and live pretty close to the high altitude cutoff. But I don't think they are related. :rolleyes:

So it's not picture - thanks!

Originally posted by mweflen
... Are there settings which further reduce the dim hue that blacks currently display?
...

Not that I am aware of.

Originally posted by DLiquid
...So what exactly is this brightness level problem, that DVI is too bright? On my set it sometimes seems that DVI is too dark, and I haven't changed UBOF yet. I notice that by default UBOF is set to 35 for all 720p and 1080i sources, yet your recommendations apply only to DVI. Why is that?

... I have consistently found level differences between DVI and component sources. You can use UBOF to fix these for each input, but it it very difficult to set accurately without a test pattern. I came close with HD OTA material, but it was not until I had DVE on D-VHS that I got it correct. Unfortunately, you will either loose black detail or contrast ratio if you are off.

Originally posted by umr
I have consistently found level differences between DVI and component sources. You can use UBOF to fix these for each input, but it it very difficult to set accurately without a test pattern. I came close with HD OTA material, but it was not until I had DVE on D-VHS that I got it correct. Unfortunately, you will either loose black detail or contrast ratio if you are off. Once the HD TiVo comes out, it should be easier to get at least some basic test patterns for those of us without D-VHS. I've seen some patterns on HDNet and even some OTA stations (got my HD picture centered this way), but without the ability to record them they are hard to use for something like SM tweaks.

Originally posted by Bghead8che
I believe the Altitude setting is for high altitude areas (obviously) that cause your TV to make a buzzing sound.

If you don't have a buzz don't worry about the setting.


-Brian

The high altitude setting increases the amount of time the fan runs when the set is turned off. This is to compensate for the thinner air that does not cool the bulb as well as it would at lower altitudes. Nothing to do with the buzz issue.

HDD

Someone please advise:
I'm applying all the settings for my xbr950, and if I go back in, the settings have all reset to the original settings. I make sure I'm on the correct setting, with the proper input signals, and I double, triple check every thing. I hit Mute, and Enter after each adjustment, and when I power off, and then go back into service menu, all the input settings are back to the original settings, and yes, I make sure I reset all settings, and put them on Pro before adjusting.
UMR says when saving: "Press Mute Enter (Write should appear in red for a few seconds if you do this correctly) to save this change." I've never seen "Write" appear in red, it says "Write", but in green letters. What am I doing wrong???

RedWyvern

I was doing the very same thing on my non XBR GWIII.

The "enter button" on the GWIII remote is to the right of "0' and marked "ENT". I was trying to use the "+" button in the middle of the 4 left right up down buttons.

I've not seen the xbr's remote, but possibly the enter button is in the same location.

At least you got familiar with the service menu. :)

Originally posted by RedWyvern
....UMR says when saving: "Press Mute Enter (Write should appear in red for a few seconds if you do this correctly) to save this change." I've never seen "Write" appear in red, it says "Write", but in green letters. What am I doing wrong???

You are not pressing enter while Write appears in green letters. You must do it so the IR sensor in the TV can see it. I would be careful about being too close as well.

Originally posted by JimP
RedWyvern

I was doing the very same thing on my non XBR GWIII.

The "enter button" on the GWIII remote is to the right of "0' and marked "ENT". I was trying to use the "+" button in the middle of the 4 left right up down buttons.



Thank you soooo much! I was using the wrong button for Enter. Everything is working fine now, and a big Kudo's to you UMR, thanks to your tweaks I'll never look at Television the same way again!

I implemented all of UMR's tweaks.

I ended up setting my contrast to 63 in the Service Menu and Brightness to 18. What contrast settings did you guys end up with (I know it varies)?

-Brian

I have the 60" XBR and have only adjusted settings in the UM. I have been using the Pro mode. My question is, has any used the Cinema Black option? Even if I compensate using the brightness control, it seems that the black level is better with this option on.
Has anyone played with this option? Will using the SM brightness control also achieve the same black level as the cinema black option? Any other hints to get the best black level out of these sets would be helpful. Will adjustments in the SM help in this department?

Thanks

UMR,

Regarding the brightness setting. If I set the brightness so the last box is barely visible there is a noticeable shadow behind the THX logo. On the other hand, if I make the drop shadow on the THX logo disappear then the last two boxes can not be seen at all.

Basically, which one should I use? The shadow or squares?

Thanks!

-Brian

P.S. I'd like to know what "Cinema Black" does to the picture.

Originally posted by Bghead8che
UMR,

Regarding the brightness setting. If I set the brightness so the last box is barely visible there is a noticeable shadow behind the THX logo. On the other hand, if I make the drop shadow on the THX logo disappear then the last two boxes can not be seen at all.

Basically, which one should I use? The shadow or squares?

Thanks!

-Brian

P.S. I'd like to know what "Cinema Black" does to the picture.

I do not know what "Cinema Black" does, but I would assume it is messing with Gamma. These types of adjustments will not render an accurate picture.

Here is Lucas' description of how to set the brightness with the THX drop shadow.

Brightness Set-Up

Black level, or "how black are the black areas", is just as important as the white level and also requires careful adjustment. The brightness setting on your television determines the overall black level of the picture. As with contrast, the brightness adjustment should be made under the viewing conditions you expect at the time you plan to watch the movie.
For the brightness test, THX Optimizer provides a signal that displays two bars containing ten shades of black at the top and bottom of the screen, the THX logo, and a drop shadow behind the THX logo. The THX logo is just slightly lighter than (or above) "black" and the drop shadow is just slightly darker than (or below) "black". The background area is considered the true "black" for your television. The two shades or levels of black are known as pluge.

The goal is to use your brightness adjustment to make the THX logo (lighter than/above "black") barely visible, while making the drop shadow (darker than/below "black") blend into the surrounding "black" areas.

Note: Some DVD players may not be able to play back video levels below "black", so you will not be able to see the drop shadow or the three darkest shades of the ten black boxes. To determine whether your DVD player cannot display levels below "black", turn up your brightness control and count how many boxes you can see at the top and bottom of the screen. If you can only see seven shades of black boxes, your player cannot display levels below "black". However, you can still correctly set-up your Brightness level by following the next instructions. Turn down the brightness control until you can no longer see the seventh darkest shade of black at the top and bottom of the screen. Then, turn up the brightness control until you can barely see the seventh darkest box.

Originally posted by kdeleon
I... My question is, has any used the Cinema Black option? Even if I compensate using the brightness control, it seems that the black level is better with this option on.
Has anyone played with this option? Will using the SM brightness control also achieve the same black level as the cinema black option? Any other hints to get the best black level out of these sets would be helpful. Will adjustments in the SM help in this department?

Thanks

I think you are confusing black details and black level.

The level of black is how bright it is. Brightness effects this on this TV. The output levels of source devices can also effect this. The amount of light the panels leak through determines how luminous this is. There is no adjustment for panel leakage.

Black details are how well you can resolve changes in light level. A sets calibration, gamma, contrast ratio and display technology determines how well this is done. Many plasma sets, for example, have great difficulty with subtle changes in black level at signal levels near black this is a technological challenge. A high gamma will tend to mask black details and make a picture look punchy. A low gamma will tend to make black details easy to see, but the picture will look washed out. The higher the contrast ratio a set has the easier it is to discern the black details. Calibration of picture and brightness levels are critical to discerning these details. Any errors can loose contrast ratio or clip the signals.

UMR

Thanks for the THX post.

My 3510,(yep you know the model well) passes blacker than black on component, but doesn't on DVI or SVideo.

Is this likely to be the TV or the 3510??

UMR: while talking about blacks..

since you have a light meter, how black are the blacks on the GWIII ?
compared to your GWII??

then , i read a few times you were talking about installing a filter on the lightpath, do you think that this TV will benefit from it?
what kind of filter would be necessary, and what exaclty in measurable facts would it brings to the set?

my guess is that the filter should darken the light because the pannels can't block completly the light, this would give us almost true black.. ??
should we measure the lowest black possible now from the set and use a filter that will make it go down to near 0 ?

then what will be the drawbacks and effects on whites and other colors on this set if using such a filter?

i really have to get a light meter :p

Originally posted by JimP
...Is this likely to be the TV or the 3510??

I thought my 3510 did pass pluge on DVI, but I don't have it hooked up to my GWII at this time. It is in my bedroom with component only. The GWIII's I looked at handled pluge on DVI.

since you have a light meter, how black are the blacks on the GWIII ?

They are between 2 to 3 times brighter than my GWII.

then , i read a few times you were talking about installing a filter on the lightpath, do you think that this TV will benefit from it?

It depends on the lighting conditions. A filter will help once you can begin to see 0 percent black level glow.

what kind of filter would be necessary, and what exaclty in measurable facts would it brings to the set?

A neutral density filter is probably the right choice for these sets. I have a Kodak filter kit and did not see any benefit from the GWIII XBR I checked with it. A neutral density filter will measurably lower the level of black. It should also improve the ANSI contrast ratio. The On/Off contrast ratio should not be effected.

my guess is that the filter should darken the light because the pannels can't block completly the light, this would give us almost true black.. ??

You will not be able to get black to black in a totally dark room. What you can do is get it to the point that you will not see the glow with lower light levels than without it.

should we measure the lowest black possible now from the set and use a filter that will make it go down to near 0 ?

I would choose a filter that will lower the 0 percent blacks so they look black with your normal lighting level. I would not drop the light output below 16 ft L. These sets untweaked are running 50 to 60 ft L. You might want to shoot for about 25 ft L if you are going to watch it in dim lighting situations. You may be unhappy with this if your room lighting is very bright.

What we really need is some way to rotate different filters in and out of the light path depending on the room lighting.

then what will be the drawbacks and effects on whites and other colors on this set if using such a filter?

A neutral density filter will not change the colors.

I asked before if anyone had tried a neutral density filter on a GWIII. So, umr, are you saying that adding one would improve the blacks/contrast? If so, how hard is it to add one? Would this be something an ISF calibrator could do?

Originally posted by mnc
I asked before if anyone had tried a neutral density filter on a GWIII. So, umr, are you saying that adding one would improve the blacks/contrast? If so, how hard is it to add one? Would this be something an ISF calibrator could do?

Yes. It will improve black level.

Yes. It should improve the ANSI contrast ratio. This improvement would be subtle though.

I have no idea how hard it would be to add. No one has let me take their set apart.

I know Chuck Williams (ISF calibrator) is experimenting with this. You might try talking to him about it. He tends to post on the ***************.com.

Many sincere thanks to Umr for his excellent service menu tweaks!
With 200 hours on my set, I have noticed that the color shifts. During the day the colors and detail are impressive, but at night the colors are poor. Everything seems to have green push. The blacks look green, even with the service menu restored to the original factory settings. I have also noticed that with 200 hours on the set, I have to increase the brightness from the factory default whereas when I initially got the set, it was "Bang, Zoom!" picture that lit up the street. Is this all normal?
The only differences in my service menu to the Excel spreadsheet parameters are;
DCP-ADJ2 1080i component
4 HFBT Vivid 15 (spreadsheet showed 0)
17 APCD Vivid 1 (spreadsheet showed 2)
Other than these two items the spreadsheet for 1080i component was exactly the same as the spreadsheet.
Any advice or opinion on the greenpush would be appreciated.
Thanks.

I had my KF60WE610 ISF by Chuck Williams. Here are settings he came up with. He just did my 1080I HD and 480I DVD for PRO mode. I do not have a progrssive scan DVD player. The Picture looks really good for HD and DVD. But my wife and I think that SD & digital channels have gotten worse. They seem more blury or milky looking no matter what you are on Vivid , Standard, Pro. One question I have do these SM changes improve SD also? Chuck did following.
Chromacity Coordinates, Temperture Trackng, Color Tracking. He used Light meter (do not know model), Avia disk, and Lap Top PC (Sony).

1080I (Motorola DCT6200 set top box. DVI not active by cable company Armstrong Cable
DCP-User
UPIC 50
UBRT 35
USHP 40
AXIS 0

DCP-ADJ1
RDRV 145
GDRV 140
BDRV 109
RCUT 248
GCUT 251
BCUT 248

480I DVD set DVD Player settings to neutral
its a Sony DVP-S550D I know its old but it works good.
DCP-USER
UPIC 46
UBRT 39
USHP 36
AXIS 0

DCP-ADJ1
RDRV 145
GDRV 140
BDRV 109
RCUT 248
GCUT 251
BCUT 248
He did not do MID5 he mention he did not believe changing it.
He did each color Blue,Red Green seperate by turning off each color except the one he was working on.
He was going through settings fast so I could have missed something that he changed. I know he turned off and on the RYB,RYR,GYB,GRY ect. when he was working on the colors. Do not know final setting numbers.

Is there something I could do in SM that can improve SD without messing up
DVD and HD? I am real happy with what Chuck did on these.

bubblegum1647,

I am not sure what mode you are running (PRO...) from what you said. It is my understanding that UPIC, UBRT, USHP are universal for a mode and not input/resolution specific. I would suggest you change the other parameters listed in the first post of this thread that Chuck did not touch. You should skip over level and gray scale since he did those.

I do not agree with not tweaking MID5 or SHF0. These will make your set less blurry. You may need to revisit USHP once you have adjusted these. Save the untweaked values before you proceed and you can always go back and reset them to where you are now.

Originally posted by NickatNight
Many sincere thanks to Umr for his excellent service menu tweaks!
With 200 hours on my set, I have noticed that the color shifts. During the day the colors and detail are impressive, but at night the colors are poor. Everything seems to have green push. The blacks look green, even with the service menu restored to the original factory settings. I have also noticed that with 200 hours on the set, I have to increase the brightness from the factory default whereas when I initially got the set, it was "Bang, Zoom!" picture that lit up the street. Is this all normal?
The only differences in my service menu to the Excel spreadsheet parameters are;
DCP-ADJ2 1080i component
4 HFBT Vivid 15 (spreadsheet showed 0)
17 APCD Vivid 1 (spreadsheet showed 2)
Other than these two items the spreadsheet for 1080i component was exactly the same as the spreadsheet.
Any advice or opinion on the greenpush would be appreciated.
Thanks.

You need to calibrate the gray scale and possibly the color decoder to fix the green problem. Follow my suggestions in the first post of this thread.

It sounds like you are seeing tracking problems at low levels. This is most evident when the room is dark or in low illumination. You may also have a lamp problem if the output level has shifted with such low hours.

bubblegum1647

Regarding your comment about SD looking more blurry, could it be that you were use to "Vivid"??

Would like to ask, when Chuck was adjusting your gray scale, was he relying entirely on a gray scale test pattern off of Avia or similar DVD or did he also look at content off of other sources to come up with his final numbers.?

NickatNight

The spreadsheets that you mentioned... are they the step by step procedure early in the post or did I miss a link to an actual spreadsheet?
Thanks, Rick

Thank's Umr I will follow your suggestion on the greyscale problem. I do have a question though... when adjusting for greyscale your tweaks reference DCP-ADJ1 (RDRV/GDRV/BDRV & cutoffs), as needed. So, when would you make corrections through the color decoder?. It seems as though you could do either to correct greyscale? Please explain which is the correct approach and when would you personally adjust the color decoder settings other than for red push (Axis).
Thank you for your valued advice.

NickatNight,

The color decoder is how you adjust the intensity and tint of colored images. Gray scale is the underlying black and white image. They are different things. Never adjust the cuts and drives for anything, but black and white images. Only adjust the color decoder to effect color images.

I see no reason to tweak the color decoder beyond AXIS on these sets. I have achieved very nice colors after tweaking the gray scale and AXIS on the two I adjusted. The problem with adjusting the color decoder more is that any errors you are seeing may very well be in the source device unless you have a signal generator. You can eliminate the source problem with gray scale by disconnecting the color inputs from the DVD player if you use a component input.

Greetings rstebbins -
I found the spreadsheet on avsform I think the creators name was Chilfac. I am attaching is here in its unaltered state. Hope it helps. If you don't have Microsoft Excel there is a free viewer on Microsoft site.
I found all values (except the two I mentioned) to match my new 70" LCD
Enjoy.

one thing i have not noticed discussed is the 'overscan' programmed into the GWIII settings by default. You do mention it very briefly, UMR, in your tweak doc, but offer no adjustments.

I only noticed it when I was monkeying around in the SM while watching LOTR:TT:EE. I was shocked and dispmayed when, being paused on a scene with two kids on a horse (fleeing the town as Uruk-Hai destroyed it), jimmying the picture over left and right revealed 2-3 inches more picture on each side! I had known that there was some overscan, but not that much!

(it can be said i'm a stickler for this - i hate when computer monitors are either way underscanned or way overscanned.)

So I popped in SWE2 for the THX 'sharpness' screen (withthe color bars, sharp scale, and boxes in the background, and played with the settings until i saw the edge of the picture, both horizontally and verticlaly. Then I adjusted the size for both axes and centered the picture. I now have probably 2-3 pixels worth of overscan around all 4 edges now, just to get everything nice and to the edge of the screen from all viewing angles(wouldn't want a black gutter!)

Here are the original settings and what I adjusted them to:

All 4 settings are in the MID1 category;
MDHP from 12 to 26
MDVP from 14 to 24
MDHS from 224 to 200
MDVS from 128 to 97

This results in seeing ALL of the movie, instead of having an inch or more cut off on each side! It preserves the correct aspect ratio, verified by seeing the circle pattern in the THX optimizer, as well as measurement and calculation.

Hope you enjoy these settings, or monkeying around with them on your own!

Umr -
Thank's for the help in greyscalem and the fast response. You should take comfort in knowing that there are a LOT of people on this forum who think very highly of you, your efforts and your technical expertise. Don't let the others get to you.
Thanks again.
Nick

UMR : one question on grayscale ..again :p

( i know this is not 100% related to GW tweak ... )

Since you pointed me to kodak greycards and other tools for measuring light... i have reviewed my DVE DVD
and they seem to be showing a greyscale eyeball tool
with some kind of slider over a few greypatches

would you happen to know where i could get one like this or similar?
my guess is that this would be a good basic tool to eyeball the greyscale of the set without having to pay an hefty sum for a color meter ( i found a few supposdly good ones at 300$USD on ebay .. minolta i think )

would it be usefull to us ?

Maybe a few of us could go in on a meter and pass it around. I'd love to tweak my grayscale.

-Brian

JinMTVT,

I believe the graphic you are looking at is displaying how apparent color can shift. I don't think this is a device in itself. Here is an optical comparator that Joe Kane recommends, The Visual Standard (http://www.avstandards.com/page2.html) . It is not cheap, but it should be pretty accurate. The lowest cost option for measuring these sets is what I recommended in my tweaks.

I think a super accurate gray scale is overrated on these sets, but if you want to try I would get the device Joe recommends along with the light meter and filters I suggested. Anything else that is worth having will cost MUCH more. Joe's device would be useful as an accurate reference for comparison. The light meter and Avia filters can be used to measure the gray scale tracking.

Any low cost tristimulus device is going to have problems with the light coming from these sets. It does not come close to matching the CRT phosphorus or natural light sources they are typically calibrated for.

JimP

Regarding your comment about SD looking more blurry, could it be that you were use to "Vivid"??

Would like to ask, when Chuck was adjusting your gray scale, was he relying entirely on a gray scale test pattern off of Avia or similar DVD or did he also look at content off of other sources to come up with his final numbers.?


No when I watched SD I was using Standard.
Chuck relied on Avia and his light meter and his PC when adjusting grayscale.

UMR
I do not agree with not tweaking MID5 or SHF0. These will make your set less blurry. You may need to revisit USHP once you have adjusted these. Save the untweaked values before you proceed and you can always go back and reset them to where you are now.

UMR I will give it a try. When you say save the untweaked values before processing. I take it you mean to write them down before I change them.

bubblegum1647

Did you see how Chuck turned off the different color panels???

If so, how??

Originally posted by JimP
bubblegum1647

Did you see how Chuck turned off the different color panels???

If so, how??

Chuck advocates lowering the cuts and drives to zero for the colors you want to turn off.

UMR

How does the theory work on this? If each color panel puts out equal brightness, that would not equal 6500K, would it? Seems like it would be more like 5500K. 6500K would be a tad bluer.

Originally posted by JimP
UMR

How does the theory work on this? If each color panel puts out equal brightness, that would not equal 6500K, would it? Seems like it would be more like 5500K. 6500K would be a tad bluer.

What theory are you asking about?


Are you asking about these perceived intensity ratios?

SD:

Green 58.7% in white
Red 29.9% in white
Blue 11.4 % in white

HD:

Green 71.54% in white
Red 21.25% in white
Blue 7.21% in white

FYI http://www.physics.utu.fi/ett/kurssi/sfys3066/arto.ppt

I am probably going to confuse 95% of the people on this forum with this info.

Did you see how Chuck turned off the different color panels???

If so, how??

UMR: Sorry I do not remember. He was working petty fast at least to me.
it was the 1st time I ever saw SM. It was all Greek to me. I know he would turn I Think called RYB, GYB etc to 0 and another setting which I do not know what it was called to 0 except the color he was working on. I know when he did green off he would have hard time reading SM because its lettering is in green.

Originally posted by umr
What theory are you asking about?


Are you asking about these perceived intensity ratios?

SD:

Green 58.7% in white
Red 29.9% in white
Blue 11.4 % in white

HD:

Green 71.54% in white
Red 21.25% in white
Blue 7.21% in white

FYI http://www.physics.utu.fi/ett/kurssi/sfys3066/arto.ppt

I am probably going to confuse 95% of the people on this forum with this info.

Got me a little confused. According to this, HD has more green, less red and less blue than SD. Is that right??

What I'm trying to get to is there some way to adjust the color temperatures feature in the user menu(by service menu adjustments)such that on SD, we can switch to "warm" and it would actually be more like what its suppose to rather than using "normal" for both SD and HD. I know the color temp settings were suppose to do some warming up to meet NTSC standards, but is it really calibrated to do that??

Aren't we adjusting SD to HD grayscale and figure that its close enough?

The basic point is that HD is different than SD, but they both shoot for D65 as the target for gray.

You can do what ever you like for color temperature. Once "Normal" is adjusted for D65 it should work for HD and SD as well.

UMR

Thanks. I tend to overthink some of these issues.

Help please (MID? adjustment Question)

I was adjusting for overscan with my HTPC thru DVI @720p using the MID4 Vertical and Horizontal adjustments as per the DVI to PC GWIII thread. I would also like to adjust for overscan on my DVD player (component 480i) and TiVo (s-video 480i).

Question:
What are the different MID? Specifically, what does MID1, MID2, MID3, MID4 stand for and how do their Vertical and Horizontal adjustments differ?

A point towards a service manual for the GWIII WE would be helpful as well.

I'm sorry if this is posted somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

Thanks

Originally posted by grumpy
Help please (MID? adjustment Question)

I was adjusting for overscan with my HTPC thru DVI @720p using the MID4 Vertical and Horizontal adjustments as per the DVI to PC GWIII thread. I would also like to adjust for overscan on my DVD player (component 480i) and TiVo (s-video 480i).

Question:
What are the different MID? Specifically, what does MID1, MID2, MID3, MID4 stand for and how do their Vertical and Horizontal adjustments differ?

A point towards a service manual for the GWIII WE would be helpful as well.

I'm sorry if this is posted somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

Thanks

The service manual does not clarify these adjustments.

They have changed since the GWII and I did not have a chance to figure out how it all works in this set. Be careful going too far with geometry can render some input types inoperable.

Originally posted by JimP
be4r


If you see the above and don't feel comfortable making the adjustments yourself, you may prefer contracting with a professional especially trained in TV calibration.

Edited for spellcheck.. UMR ;)


This is something I have been wondering. What, if any, are the differences between what an ISF calibration would entail versus just applying the UMR tweeks? Is it basically the same thing or will the ISF automatically use some of these tweeks?

Can't tell you the differences, but I can tell you that last year, after UMR published his famous GWII tweaks document, many an ISF calibrator was seen with a copy of said tweaks in hand when working on a GWII.

Only time will tell, but history does have a way of repeating itself.

HDD

Posts: 1962bubblegum1647,
I am not sure what mode you are running (PRO...) from what you said. It is my understanding that UPIC, UBRT, USHP are universal for a mode and not input/resolution specific. I would suggest you change the other parameters listed in the first post of this thread that Chuck did not touch. You should skip over level and gray scale since he did those.
I do not agree with not tweaking MID5 or SHF0. These will make your set less blurry. You may need to revisit USHP once you have adjusted these. Save the untweaked values before you proceed and you can always go back and reset them to where you are now.

UMR
I tried to change MID5 and SHFO like you said. One thing I noticed.
I have cable box plugged into vidio 6 but service menu says vidio 5. DVD plugged into vidio 5 but servce menu says vidio 4. does this matter? and why does it say this?
2nd. when I changed settings for 480I TV Vidio 5(SM) Vidio 6(actual). It also changed values for DVD 480I Vidio 4(SM) Vidio 5 (actual).
Is it suppose to do this?
Is there a way I can sync up SM & Actual?

Umr -
In Pro mode, while in the advanced mode for "white Balance" there are gain and bias controls.... what do they really change? Is it the color decoder settings or is it drives and cut offs or something else?
Thanks for your knowledge.
Nick

Originally posted by NickatNight
Umr -
In Pro mode, while in the advanced mode for "white Balance" there are gain and bias controls.... what do they really change? Is it the color decoder settings or is it drives and cut offs or something else?
Thanks for your knowledge.
Nick

Those are the drives and cuts for gray scale.

<<39. Display the contrast/picture setup display from THX Optimizer.
40. Adjust UPIC (user menu picture) by pressing the 3 button until the color shifts or some of the squares disappear. Press the 6 button until the color is even and all squares are visible if you saw the color shift or squares disappear. >>

I'm having a heck of time figuring this one out.

Even when I crank the contrast all they way up to max none of the squares dissappear or blend together. Also I don't notice any color shifts at all. I do notice a change in the color intensity but I don't see any color shift.

I can't imagine that Contrast set at 100% is the correct setting? I've tried several contrast patterns and all of them just say to set it at the point that blooming is not an issue. However, this TV does not bloom so their tests are no help.

Any suggestions or comments? I want to set the contrast correctly. Currently it is set at 95% which I believe is to high.

Thanks in advance.

-Brian

I pulled this quote from the THX site:

<< The Optimode Contrast Adjustment procedure provides a white block surrounded by black. The white portion of the signal is set to 100% IRE video, which is equal to the brightest white in the movie. The goal here is to set the level as high as needed to produce a bright white block, but without creating smears on the transitions. >>

Since LCD Projection TVs do not "smear" how do we use this test?

-Brian

I am very impressed with the 70 inch xbr 950.

Does anyone know if the V and H raster can be easily reversed for attaching the foot of the TV to the CEILING of a bedroom and tilting the screen to aim centered at the pillow zone of a king size bed. Seems that this would be the ultimate bedroom screen.

Reversing the screen to attach it to the ceiling, presents a very narrow section hANGING BELLOW, close to peoples heads. What do you think?

Cineramax,

When I couldn't sleep tonight, I went and rewired my component cables .

You can't sleep and you think of hanging a 350 lb TV on the ceiling??

We're pathetic...

Oh, what the heck. If you're planning on hanging the gravity defieing behemoth in your own home and you don't have children, pets, or anything else you're particularly attached to, then go for it. I'm not convinced that you can turn it upside down and support it with damaging the set. However, if you're doing this for a customer, the ongoing liability risk should it's rapid downward decent be slowed by said customer or a member of said customer's family, wouldn't be worth it.

Originally posted by Bghead8che
<<39. Display the contrast/picture setup display from THX Optimizer.
40. Adjust UPIC (user menu picture) by pressing the 3 button until the color shifts or some of the squares disappear. Press the 6 button until the color is even and all squares are visible if you saw the color shift or squares disappear. >>

I'm having a heck of time figuring this one out.

Even when I crank the contrast all they way up to max none of the squares dissappear or blend together. Also I don't notice any color shifts at all. I do notice a change in the color intensity but I don't see any color shift.

I can't imagine that Contrast set at 100% is the correct setting? I've tried several contrast patterns and all of them just say to set it at the point that blooming is not an issue. However, this TV does not bloom so their tests are no help.

Any suggestions or comments? I want to set the contrast correctly. Currently it is set at 95% which I believe is to high.

Thanks in advance.

-Brian

Brian,

On the THX optimizer (nice test) contrast is adjusted until you can see that each square is slightly different in brightness. If the contrast is too high, they all blend together into one shade. Since brightness and contrast are interactive, if you are not getting this effect, you might need to recheck brightness.

I've seen the whitest white on Avia's cross step gray scale turn a different color with the set on vivid mode and the contrast all the way up. I don't recall trying this with the THX optimizer, though.

Hi Jim,

Thank for the reply.

W/ contrast set at 100% all squares are visible and a distinct shade, hence my confusion.

I'm curious, what settings did you get for brightness and contrast.

My brightness is 25% of the total and Contrast is 95%. My settings are from a dark room.

-Brian

Thank you UMR. I now see what a difference the tweaked settings make.

I was a bit surprised by the changes necessary to UBOF for the S-video input (Video1) and the component video input (Video4) to maintain the black level. On both after setting UBRT to the correct level, saving the value, then turning the TV off and back on to exit the service menu, then revisiting the THX drop shadow, the black level had changed considerably (the drop shadow was now VERY visible). Upon returning to the service menu the several steps higher black level remained, but in changing UBRT to compensate, I ended up returning to the same value I had previously, which again looked fine until I exited the service mode. Changing the UBOF (considerably) for both of these inputs has, so far, seemed to have solved the problem. I intend to revisit and check the settings in the service menu in the near future to make sure that I saved everything correctly.

I was also surprised that the only setting that looked correct for USHP was 0. Anything higher started adding ringing to vertical lines. Even at 0 a small amount of ringing is visible, but it is the same amount on vertical and horizontal lines.

I also adjusted the color decoder using the red bars and green bars on Avia. I used two green filters one over the top of the other to compensate for the green filter leaking blues as mentioned earlier in this thread. Even with the AXIS set to 0, I ended up reducing the Red Level setting to 0 to get the Red saturation correct.

I have 2 questions for UMR.

1. On the "white balance" settings you listed for the XBR models to improve gray scale, were these settings made from the warm or neutral color temp. setting?

2. How are the left and right masks for the 4x3 mode adjusted? I have the picture centered for 16x9 mode but the right mask for the 4x3 mode is farther in than the left one.

Thanks again for all the information you and the other posters to this site have offered.

Originally posted by Bghead8che
Hi Jim,

Thank for the reply.
W/ contrast set at 100% all squares are visible and a distinct shade, hence my confusion.
I'm curious, what settings did you get for brightness and contrast.
My brightness is 25% of the total and Contrast is 95%. My settings are from a dark room.

-Brian


Brian,

25% for brightness sounds a bit low. You wouldn't happen to be using one of the DVD player that has adjustable brightness settings? If not, then recheck your brightness. Even for a dark room 25% sounds too low.

My settings would probably be no use to anyone else as I prefer using "vivid mode". The UMR tweaks are based on using "pro" mode.

Yes "Vivid" would most likely be quite different.

I'm using a DVD 2900. Everything is at default. There is one black level setting...... darker and lighter...... I left it at the default lighter setting.

My UMR can comment on the contrast setting?

How about the others? What are your contrast/brightness settings?

-Brian

Originally posted by KC-Technerd
...1. On the "white balance" settings you listed for the XBR models to improve gray scale, were these settings made from the warm or neutral color temp. setting?

2. How are the left and right masks for the 4x3 mode adjusted? I have the picture centered for 16x9 mode but the right mask for the 4x3 mode is farther in than the left one.

Thanks again for all the information you and the other posters to this site have offered.

1. Neutral. I tried to minimize the manual changes required when you hit the reset button.

2. I would check the thread on using this set with a PC. They have all more info on the geometry adjustments on these sets than I do. I have seen what you are describing and it can be difficult to eliminate without having problems with some inputs.

Does that mean you would keep the color temp at neutral after making your changes, or change it to warm after making your changes?

Originally posted by Bghead8che
Yes "Vivid" would most likely be quite different.

I'm using a DVD 2900. Everything is at default. There is one black level setting...... darker and lighter...... I left it at the default lighter setting.

My UMR can comment on the contrast setting?

How about the others? What are your contrast/brightness settings?

-Brian


Brian,

Bingo.

Go into your DVD player's setup menu and change the brightness setting from lighter to darker. This gives you blacks that are really blacker. 0 instead of 7. (this is why you had such a low brightness setting on the GWIII) Then go into "PICADJ" and verify that you're on "standard" and not one of the 5 memory settings that you can use to tweak out the picture. Now reset the brightness and contast using the THX optimizer.
You should be set to go.

As to the "PICADJ" feature, you've got a really good feature to fine tune a DVD. What I've found is that different sources (and DVDs for that matter) benefit with different settings. You may do well to tweak your TV brightness and contrast for devices that are not adjustable and then tweak you DVD player to provide the best DVD picture.

UMR

I found something quite interesting. I tried adjusting the sharpness in the user menu to see if I could get rid of any additional ringing. I set pro mode and hit the reset button to reset the original value, and I got a big surprise.

All of the parameters reset to different than original values. Picture went from ~50% to ~95%. Brightness from 50 to 30. Color from 50 to 55. Hue was unaffected. Sharpness from 60 to 5. I find it interesting that these parallel the changes I made in the service menu.

So now its time to go back to the service menu and rework the settings. I'm wondering if the U settings, such as UBRT and USHP work by changing the points that the user controls reset to when the reset button is pushed. This would explain why I was having trouble with the black level setting.

Originally posted by KC-Technerd
UMR

I found something quite interesting. I tried adjusting the sharpness in the user menu to see if I could get rid of any additional ringing. I set pro mode and hit the reset button to reset the original value, and I got a big surprise.

All of the parameters reset to different than original values. Picture went from ~50% to ~95%. Brightness from 50 to 30. Color from 50 to 55. Hue was unaffected. Sharpness from 60 to 5. I find it interesting that these parallel the changes I made in the service menu.

So now its time to go back to the service menu and rework the settings. I'm wondering if the U settings, such as UBRT and USHP work by changing the points that the user controls reset to when the reset button is pushed. This would explain why I was having trouble with the black level setting.

That is why you want to use the U settings. You should see minimal change in PQ if you hit reset in Pro mode when you are done. You will still need to turn Mild mode off and reset DRC, but other than that you should be good to go. This prevents you having to recalibrate if someone messes with the user menu settings.

That is why I have you hit reset as part of the procedure early on.

UMR

I'll have to look again to see, but I didn't remember seeing to press reset AFTER making the tweaks in the service menu (and before making UBOF settings). I used your step by step list. I'm semi-dyslexic sometimes so I wouldn't be surprised if I misread the instructions or missed something.

Just to clarify what I believe happened. I made the adjustments in the service menu, when I left the service menu the settings that effect the user settings (color, brightness, etc.) changed from what I set them to in the service menu, back to the center scale settings that were set on the user menu before I entered the service menu, by pressing reset. So to actually get what I set in the service menu, I would again have to press reset. And the user settings would then be reset to obtain what I set in the service menu.

Do you agree with this? I haven't gone back in the service menu yet. But I think I messed it up by changing the UBOF settings before resetting the the user settings a second time. My plan is to go back to my original settings for all the U settings and then start over.

Originally posted by KC-Technerd
UMR

I'll have to look again to see, but I didn't remember seeing to press reset AFTER making the tweaks in the service menu (and before making UBOF settings). I used your step by step list. I'm semi-dyslexic sometimes so I wouldn't be surprised if I misread the instructions or missed something.

Just to clarify what I believe happened. I made the adjustments in the service menu, when I left the service menu the settings that effect the user settings (color, brightness, etc.) changed from what I set them to in the service menu, back to the center scale settings that were set on the user menu before I entered the service menu, by pressing reset. So to actually get what I set in the service menu, I would again have to press reset. And the user settings would then be reset to obtain what I set in the service menu.

Do you agree with this? I haven't gone back in the service menu yet. But I think I messed it up by changing the UBOF settings before resetting the the user settings a second time. My plan is to go back to my original settings for all the U settings and then start over.

The sets I adjusted responded to the UPIC... type of adjustments immediately and did not require a reset after I left the service menu. I did reset the service menu before I started though. This is what I recommended. I always check my settings by pressing reset when I am done, but I do not remember seeing them set to the default values when I left the service menu.

Originally posted by DLiquid
...I got freaked out when I first exited the SM, since the Pro picture didn't look that good. Then I realized the UM didn't pick up my SM DCP-USER changes (the UM still had the old Pro settings). I had to hit the reset button on the remote for the UM to snap into place with the new settings. This is kind of alluded to in the instructions, but you may want to list this as a specific step, since it is extremely important...

I thought I saw something about this earlier in this thread...

I have noticed that after doing the tweaks, the "Picture" is by default higher than OTB. I can turn it down for night time viewing, but during the day I need to use higher settings. Honestly though, I must admit that when I applied the tweaks, I only entered UMR's numbers for the specific inputs I was dealing with and did not follow the step by steps. (talk about trust :) ) I will probaly go back and check everything against DVE and some source specific material to make adjustments.

Edit: UMR - Thank you for adding the "Best Practices" after a couple of us queried you on the subject. I am using the S-Video out on my Zenith SAT520 satellite box now and the picture is so much better than component for SD material.

The sets I adjusted responded to the UPIC... type of adjustments immediately and did not require a reset after I left the service menu. I did reset the service menu before I started though. This is what I recommended. I always check my settings by pressing reset when I am done, but I do not remember seeing them set to the default values when I left the service menu.

Yeah, the only reason I noticed that things changed when I left the service menu is because I again ran the THX brightness pattern, and noticed that the drop shadow was quite visible. So, it was back to the service menu. I found the drop shadow disappeared again when I changed UBRT from the value I set it to, and then back to the value I set it to. Again, leaving the service menu, the drop shadow came back. That led me to changing the UBOF to compensate. That held the black level til I hit the reset button today.

All,

As I'm preparing to calibrate my WE610 with UMR's adjustment recommendations, I put together an Excel spreadsheet to help capture the settings and guide me through the step-by-step process.

UMR - I hope you don't mind that I reformatted it to make it a little easier to use.

I've attached it here if anyone would like to use it.

Thanks to all for their posts in this thread and thanks to UMR for providing us with such valuable information!!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT - the latest version with UMR's 1/29 updates is now attached here.

jscuderi,

I recently added some steps to the end for verification of tweaks. You might want to add those to your spreadsheet. It looks good though.

Nice job on the spreadsheet!

UMR - Thanks for taking a look at it.

I hadn't checked back in this thread for a few days and hadn't seen the updates to the process. I'll update the spreadsheet with the 1/29 edits from UMR and re-post it.

Good luck to all!

All,

I've updated the process spreadsheet to reflect the 1/29 process updates. Please feel free to use it if you are so inclined.

WXPERSON - Thank you for the compliment. It is only a reflection of UMR's hard work and expertise.

Regards

OK. I went back and reset the service menu last night. Good so far. I ended up returning UPIC and UBRT to their original values and then making adjustments for the S-video (Video 1) and Component (Video 4) inputs (DVD source for both) using UBOF and UPOF.

The reason I did this is because setting the UPIC and UBRT for the DVD player on Video 4 left the picture from the internal ATSC tuner set well below the ideal black level. Since I have no reference for setting brightness or picture on the ATSC tuner, I decided to leave the factory settings for the default, and then use the offsets for the other inputs.

I suspect that unless the local HDTV stations ever start broadcasting test signals during their off the air time, the only way to properly tweak the set for the ATSC tuner would be to obtain an HDTV signal generator. The factory preset picture and brightness appear to be reasonably close to ideal for HDTV from built in tuner. Sony KDF-70XBR950

Thanks again to UMR and everyone else.

Thanks J for the words of reason...

UMR,

You're the best :) I have one question I need to ask you in spite of all you've said so far though. For some reason, I'm the only HTPC over DVI that's getting horizontal line flicker even though the nokia test shows near 1:1 pixel mapping. I'm running 1328-746. This rez fills the entire screen with about 2 pixels of overscan which is mint. Question is, what the hell did I turn on, or off for that matter to make websites or the horizontal line test have that annoying flicker? Any help would be enormously appreciated since I've been trying to figure this out for over a week.

Thanks in advance,

JC.

Mad Chemist,

I'm not answering for UMR, but thought a question asked might benefit your question.

Did you change the overscan on the GWIII via its service menu? If not, then what's the net effect of having the TV overscan at whatever the factory setting is(lets say 5%) and then you adjusting your HTPC to only overscan by 2 pixels?? My point is that your HTPC is generating an image within the GWIIIs. 746 within GWIII's 788(not sure that the 788's been totally verified) If that's the case, wouldn't the GWIII be attempting to scale a non standard resolution, perhaps causing the flicker???

MadChemst,

I don't know what is causing what you are seeing. I would suggest some combination of PC and GWIII settings. JimP could be right.

Mad knows how to change the SM MID:4 to get to near 1:1 ...
and it would not get him near at all if he didn't change anything in the sm

so i guess we can assume that he did


Mad: have you tried turning off the noise reduction in the UM ?
that used to cause some flickering for me when i "had" a GWIII
(been 1.5 months now without it! :O )

Originally posted by JinMTVT
...Mad: have you tried turning off the noise reduction in the UM ?
that used to cause some flickering for me when i "had" a GWIII
(been 1.5 months now without it! :O )

That is true. You should follow the tweaks in the first post at a minimum.

I have seen some flickering on the WE version of these sets with 720p signals and tightly spaced horizontal lines of certain intensities. It might be that this is impossible to remove.

Hi Guys,

I have a Pioneer Elite DV59-AVi hooked up to my Sony XBR950 LCD Projection TV using an HDMI to DVI cable.

The player allows several different resolution options:

720 X 480 P
720 X 480 I
1280 X 720 P
1280 X 720 I
1920 X 1080 I

Until I have the time to test and evaluate each setting which of the previous setting would you recommend as a good starting point?

Thanks in advance!

-Brian

Originally posted by JimP
Mad Chemist,

I'm not answering for UMR, but thought a question asked might benefit your question.

Did you change the overscan on the GWIII via its service menu? If not, then what's the net effect of having the TV overscan at whatever the factory setting is(lets say 5%) and then you adjusting your HTPC to only overscan by 2 pixels?? My point is that your HTPC is generating an image within the GWIIIs. 746 within GWIII's 788(not sure that the 788's been totally verified) If that's the case, wouldn't the GWIII be attempting to scale a non standard resolution, perhaps causing the flicker???

No and the reason for this is that when this set is driven in its native resolution, you can no longer stretch the screen. It won't allow a slew of other changes either. When I use the nokia test, it is 1:1 in the vertical but not TOTALLY in the horizontal. The only reason is blurriness however. If you look carefully, you can see that the pixels aren't rectangular or being drawn incorrectly.

Thanks,

Josh.

The native resolution of the set if driven is inside the borders of the GWIII itself. Even if we could turn on all the pixels, it would be useless since some of the panel is beneath the screen bezel.

Guys, thanks for responding... all of you. Jin, the fact that your set isn't back yet is ridiculous. I feel for you. The issue I am having is confirmed by Datalux to not exist for him. I have turned noise reduction off long before reading your tweak page, UMR but your tweaks have greatly improved the image quality of my set. I thought it was perhaps something I did from your tweaks but in the end, after I set everything back to factory, the anomaly was still there. Perhaps it is a setting within powerstrip that I have tripped or untripped accidentally. I can't be sure which. At any rate, I'd love to know since I must have been living with this for quite some time thinking my HTPC image quality was near plasma. Boy was I wrong! :)

Thanks,

Josh.

Madchemist,

Are you getting the same flicker when using the THX sharpness pattern with a DVD player? I was getting some flicker in the right end of the frequency sweep.

This probably doesn't apply to you because of feeding a 720p signal directly to the set, but I'll offer it anyway, since it might be helpful to others.

After reentering the service menu, I found that my value of 15 set in SHF0 was not retained. It returned to 14 for the composite video input. Upon resetting it to 15 the flicker disappeared. (I haven't determined why the SHF0 values weren't retained. Could be that I forgot to 'mute-enter', but I'm pretty sure I did. Could be that it gets reset by resetting the service menu, or it could be something else. I've had two instances where these values were not retained for various inputs.)

I also know that not having the DRC palatte set to 1 and 1 can cause flicker in the frequency sweep.

UMR,

I'm pretty green on the tweak business. I've read thru the entire set you've posted here. There's a ton of steps of course and I'm not leery about the investment in time it takes. I am leery though about my ability to try them. I was wondering if there's perhaps a small subset of items to try that ain't too dangerous to get into if you know what I mean. Once the greenhorn is comfortable and notices a difference then I could move on to the more complicated.

tx, Opie

opuscat,

I would skip the gray scale if you are not clear about it. I guess you could also skip the UPIC, UBRT and UBOF adjustments if you don't care about being able have your settings not change. This would leave you with the enhancement and color tweaks.

UMR,

Do you have any suggestions from my previous post:

<<<<<
I have a Pioneer Elite DV59-AVi hooked up to my Sony XBR950 LCD Projection TV using an HDMI to DVI cable.

The player allows several different resolution options:

720 X 480 P
720 X 480 I
1280 X 720 P
1280 X 720 I
1920 X 1080 I

Until I have the time to test and evaluate each setting which of the previous setting would you recommend as a good starting point?
>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thanks!

-Brian

Originally posted by Bghead8che
UMR,

Do you have any suggestions from my previous post:

<<<<<
I have a Pioneer Elite DV59-AVi hooked up to my Sony XBR950 LCD Projection TV using an HDMI to DVI cable.

The player allows several different resolution options:

720 X 480 P
720 X 480 I
1280 X 720 P
1280 X 720 I
1920 X 1080 I

Until I have the time to test and evaluate each setting which of the previous setting would you recommend as a good starting point?
>>>>>>>>>>>>

Thanks!

-Brian

I would use 720x480p or 720x480i. The first post in this thread recommends feeding the set native. I really meant it.

Thanks for the reply.

With the display converting everything to 1386 x 788 there really is no way to send a signal natively. Unless I am mistaken?

Why would you recommend 720?

-Brian

That is native for the source. Double scaling hurts the signal. I was not referring to native for the display. As you correctly stated this cannot be done.

UBRT(7)

Sportsound,
I bet that you've got great blacks with your brightness at 7 ! I think you must have left a number out. 37 or 47 maybe?


Charles

UMR, I am feeding the set native right now, my friend :) Minus the pixels that are hidden behind my bezel. I'm running 1328-746 and I can run 1280-720 with a centimeter of underscan alll the way around the set.

1328-746 completely fills the screen and is as close to 1:1 as we've been able to get.

Thanks again,

Josh.

<<I would use 720x480p or 720x480i. The first post in this thread recommends feeding the set native. I really meant it.>>

When I change it to 720 X 480 and watch a 16 X 9 movie the movie plays in 4:3. The only way to change this is use "Full" mode but I believe this is just stretching the image.

However, when I change the mode to 1280 X 720 the movie plays in the 16 X 9 format as it should.

Any ideas why I'm getting 4:3 when using 480?

-Brian

Bghead8che,
The GWIII defaults to "full" when it detects either 1080i or 720p signal.
It does not necessarily default to full with 480p and you have to manually switch it. "Full" is the correct mode to watch widescreen/anamorphic DVD's
at 480p or 480i for that matter. Make sure the DVD player is set up correctly. When in "normal" on the TV, the picture from the DVD player should appear 4:3 but squeezed. That way in Full it will be correct.

Charles

Bghead8che,

(sarcasm on)
This is just one of the great features of the DVI input.
(sarcasm off)

I have seen this problem with many DVI devices on 480p. It is up to the source to format it properly. I do not believe the DVI input has the same flagging capability as the component input to force the TV to switch modes.

You might want to experiment with default modes on the TV to see if that helps you out.

I would forget the DVI input for DVD's and use a good analog player to avoid this along with other issues. I have said this before of course.

Thanks Charles and UMR. I spent an hour last night trying to get it to default to 16 X 9. If "Full" is the correct setting, as it appears to be, then I am good to go.

UMR is right. This DVI thing is a buggy mess currently. I, however, in my search for ultimate PQ want to compare the DVI of the 59ai to the component out of my Denon 2900. I think a few of us might be interested.

Here is the other problem I encountered last night. When using 720 X 480 and viewing the THX Logo w/ the drop shadow is bearly visible. For some reason the output appears to be limiting the range of blacks to whites??? Oddly, when I switch to another other resolution the drop shadow appears fine.

Anyone encountered something like this?

Last question, is the THX Optimizer by default a 4:3 or 16 X 9 format?

Once we get this thing set up I'll let you know how it compares to the PQ of the Denon 2900.

-Brian

Do the MID1 geometry changes affect all signals, or only the one you change it on? (that is 480p, vs 1080i vs 480i)

Originally posted by Bghead8che
...Here is the other problem I encountered last night. When using 720 X 480 and viewing the THX Logo w/ the drop shadow is bearly visible. For some reason the output appears to be limiting the range of blacks to whites??? Oddly, when I switch to another other resolution the drop shadow appears fine.

Anyone encountered something like this?
...

Yep I have seen these kind of things. (sarcasm on) It is just another benefit of DVI for DVD playback. (sarcasm off) You can use UBOF to try and correct it, but it may be shared with the component input. You do not want to see the drop shadow once it is calibrated correctly.

Would UBOF be tied to my input for SD Direct TV?

-Brian

I believe UBOF is input specific i.e. it changes with inputs and allows for adjustments to a specific input without changing others. UMR is certainly the guru on that, though.

As far as the THX drop shadow, the LG LST-3510a I have behaves exactly the same way across the DVI input to the GWIII. What's happening is it's not passing blacker-than-black or "pluge" as it's called. The instructions on the THX optimizer mention this I think. I don't think it effects the overall levels of black, it just makes it harder to adjust using patterns that require passage of pluge. I think THX optimizer says to look at the 7th box instead if you can't see the drop shadow. AVIA patterns do not require passing pluge for adjustment so you could try those as well.

I think THX optimizer is 4:3 except for the section on widescreen/amamorphic geometry. I personally have had problems using THX optimizer for geometry adjustment, though. The grid goes off the screen for me on the lower left. On AVIA, everything is perfect. I think I've heard others mention this as well.

Charles

edit: I just read through that post and it sounds like I'm sure thinking alot.
Didn't mean to sound so much like a politician.

Originally posted by cpcat
I believe UBOF is input specific i.e. it changes with inputs and allows for adjustments to a specific input without changing others. UMR is certainly the guru on that, though....

That is basically correct except it is type and resolution specific. That is why when you select an input in the service menu it may not show the exact one you are on. Instead it shows you the first of that type. When the parameter is input/resolution specific you are effecting all inputs of that type.

UMR (or others)

I'm preparing to venture into the SM and am considering starting with something simple like the resolution enhancements (MID5).

Can you tell me what I can expect to see after these changes?

Should making these changes by themselves be noticable? More noticable with SD content or HD content?

Thanks in advance for your time and advice.

Ugh.

jrenner, please... please... READ THE PRIOR POSTS FIRST! UMR has taken the time to prepare documentation suggesting that our sets aren't even worth watching without these tweaks. I have to agree. Isn't it enough that you just try it out? Why ask questions about the tweaks until you attempt them?

Josh.

I'm having an interesting problem here, with a KDF-70XBR950. After performing the tweaks, I have noticed that the picture on the S-video input (Video 1) is signifigantly softer than on the Component Video input (Video 4). I originally attributed this to just the difference between S-Video and Component.

While rechecking the service menu settings, and making some overscan adjustments, I have found that the picture on Video 1 is quite sharp (apparently equal to the Video 4 component input) while I'm in the service menu, but then goes back to being soft when I leave the service menu. I have checked this twice with the same results. In service menu=sharp picture on Video 1, out of service menu=soft picture on Video 1.

I have confirmed the following settings for all inputs and resolutions.

DCP-ADJ2 SHFO 15
MID5 MVLS 0
MID5 MHLC 1
DCP-USER USHP 0

Any suggestions?

Originally posted by KC-Technerd
...I have noticed that the picture on the S-video input (Video 1) is signifigantly softer than on the Component Video input (Video 4). I originally attributed this to just the difference between S-Video and Component.

While rechecking the service menu settings, and making some overscan adjustments, I have found that the picture on Video 1 is quite sharp (apparently equal to the Video 4 component input) while I'm in the service menu, but then goes back to being soft when I leave the service menu. I have checked this twice with the same results. In service menu=sharp picture on Video 1, out of service menu=soft picture on Video 1....

Any suggestions?

S-Video should be softer than component if the component signal is the highest quality. I am not sure why you are seeing what you are seeing, but you might try adjust SHOF for Video 1 if it needs it.

I have seen some behavior like this in the past between being in the service menu and out of it, but not on this set.

Originally posted by jrenner
UMR (or others)

I'm preparing to venture into the SM and am considering starting with something simple like the resolution enhancements (MID5).

Can you tell me what I can expect to see after these changes?

Should making these changes by themselves be noticable? More noticable with SD content or HD content?

Thanks in advance for your time and advice.

Based on the poll I conducted. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3254378&highlight=poll#post3254378

You have a 61% chance of seeing a sharper picture with better colors and contrast if you are willing to enter the service menu. You have a 19% chance of getting lost. A 5% chance of not noticing any change and a 3% chance of messing up your set. This assumes all of the posts were accurate.

Ugh Josh,

I'd thank you for your feedback, but I really didn't get any. I am prepared to make all the tweaks but, since I've never done SM tweaks, before I'm a little nervous. I wanted to dip my toes in and figured resolution enhancements would be a nice place to start.

FYI, I have read this entire thread and found little to no information on these tweaks by themselves. I was simply asking for an idea of what the visible effects will be for these tweaks by themselves.

No offense to the obvious great work that UMR has done, but your comment about this set "not being worth watching" without these is laughable. It may not meet your standards but it's far from unwatchable, in fact don't most people say that this is one of the best sets for OOTB PQ? Ultimately your post was a great example of a snobbish videophile attempting to make some point, what ever it may be, while completely discounting a very simple question.

Thanks for nothing.

UMR, thanks, I simply wanted to know if the resolution enhancements where noticable by themselves.

Originally posted by jrenner
UMR, thanks, I simply wanted to know if the resolution enhancements where noticable by themselves.

They are, but it is more complex than that. It depends on your source quality, user menu adjustments, service menu skills, test equipment and observation skills. That is why I quoted you probabilities. Since you seem to struggle with the spellcheck button on this forum I am not sure how well you will do.;)

UMR

Thanks for the feedback. I should specify the lack of sharpness is on black and white material. If I understand the difference between S-Video and Component correctly, the quality of the luminance portion of the signal should be the same (carried separately from the chrominance), resulting in the same level of sharpness. Color resolution and balance is what I believe would be different between the two types of input since the chrominance signal is handled differently.

The S-Video image looks very close to that of the component video in sharpness and detail while observing black and white images in the service menu.

I'll try to experiment with the SHOF value, but its going to be frustrating to have to leave the service menu to see the actual results of each value.

P.S. I want to make it very clear that I do not believe that what I am experiencing is a result of the tweaks I have made to the service menu. Rather it is something that pre-existed and became apparent while making other tweaks.

Thanks umr

I look forward to doing your tweaks once I get Avia or a THX branded dvd.

The service menu is not very user friendly :)

KC-Technerd,

You are correct the primary difference between component and S-Video is in the chroma (color) information. I have also seen problems caused by the comb filter in the source device and cabling. A comb filter should not be a factor from a DVD player assuming that is what you are comparing. However, those S-Video cables are tough to make compared to composite and component. You need to keep the cable run short and try and use high quality ones.

Originally posted by thomas997
...The service menu is not very user friendly :)

So very true.:(

UMR,

I am using S-Video and Component from the same DVD player for comparison. And again the sharpness appears similar while looking at both inputs in the service menu, but then there is a considerable difference when leaving the service menu.

The sharpness on the S-Video (service menu off) looks similar to setting SHFO to 13 rather than 15, although lower SHFO settings appear to smear the image more horizontally than vertically.

I have yet to try the SHOF settings, and I'm also going to try different inputs (Video 3, Video 4) to see if that makes a difference.

Originally posted by KC-Technerd
UMR,

I am using S-Video and Component from the same DVD player for comparison. And again the sharpness appears similar while looking at both inputs in the service menu, but then there is a considerable difference when leaving the service menu. ...

Are the component and S-Video both on interlaced when you are comparing? You might be seeing differences between the deinterlacer in the TV and DVD player if not. I would check your DRC settings. I found Cinemotion to be the best. The deinterlacer in this TV is not quite as good as the GWII.

Are the component and S-Video both on interlaced when you are comparing? You might be seeing differences between the deinterlacer in the TV and DVD player if not. I would check your DRC settings. I found Cinemotion to be the best. The deinterlacer in this TV is not quite as good as the GWII.

Yes. The Component and S-Video are both outputting 480i, and I have Cinemotion set for both inputs on the TV. I tried using the progressive mode with the DVD player on the component hook-up, but I found the progressive mode looked soft, similar to the results I am getting with the S-Video connection. I also found that the TV did not want to switch aspect ratios automatically when using progressive scanning from the DVD player.

UMR
I've just retweaked my grayscale using a 6500K light, 18% Kodak Gray card, Avia, BlueJean component cables, Denon 2900 DVD player on component 480p. Found that the Denon that I just got a couple of weeks ago to be closer to my other inputs than my older Toshiba 5109. (No Green scewing on the other inputs)

Really feel that my grayscale is extremely close based on these components and service level adjustments.

Although "0" Axis is very close, what would be the best approach to fine tune the non XBR GWIII to get even closer?? It's been said that the green filter included with AVIA isn't that precise. At the same time, Chuck's done some calibrations by turning off cuts and drives to only see one color at a time. Can't help but wonder if there is some interactions in the LCD panels that doesn't really allow that work as well either. Your thoughts??

Originally posted by JimP
UMR
I've just retweaked my grayscale using a 6500K light, 18% Kodak Gray card, Avia, BlueJean component cables, Denon 2900 DVD player on component 480p. Found that the Denon that I just got a couple of weeks ago to be closer to my other inputs than my older Toshiba 5109. (No Green scewing on the other inputs)

Really feel that my grayscale is extremely close based on these components and service level adjustments.

Although "0" Axis is very close, what would be the best approach to fine tune the non XBR GWIII to get even closer?? It's been said that the green filter included with AVIA isn't that precise. At the same time, Chuck's done some calibrations by turning off cuts and drives to only see one color at a time. Can't help but wonder if there is some interactions in the LCD panels that doesn't really allow that work as well either. Your thoughts??

I am glad you are happy with your gray scale.


I would use the red filter and blue filter from Avia to set the red and blue decoder. A Wratten #99 filter should do the job for green if the following suggestions do not satisfy you.

You can check the compliments that are leaking relative to white. Blue leaks on both Avia and DVE. You can check the level of green in cyan relative to white with this filter because the leaking blue will be the same in cyan and white. I would use the first special color bar pattern on Avia to do this test. It shows the vertical color bars over a horizontal white strip. This works perfectly for this test. I would assume the hue adjustment for green (GYR) is close enough and set GYB with that color bar. I believe this type of analysis is possible with the green supplied with Avia because it only leaks significant levels of blue.

You could also try Chuck's method of lowering the red and blue cuts and drives. I have used this technique with limited success on other sets, but I did not attempt it on a GWIII because the green looked good and the sets passed the prior analysis for cyan. When you look at the color bars through the Avia green filter after you lower the cuts and drives you should see little to no blue leakage. This will not work for yellow and green if you see significant leakage of blue.

As you found with the Toshiba you could just be compensating for errors in the Denon DVD player if you do this. I would not bother with it unless you are sure the green is off.

how can you access the bulb life from the SM? I got in the SM for the first time today, and it looked like old dos prompt....
:eek:

Originally posted by m_nieft
how can you access the bulb life from the SM? I got in the SM for the first time today, and it looked like old dos prompt....
:eek:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3272209#post3272209