CNET posted a review of the 50 inch model today. The found the following:

<< Out of the box, the color decoder exhibits significant red push, but thankfully that can be corrected with calibration by a qualified technician. If you don't opt for professional calibration, you should reduce the color control to get rid of any reddish cast in skin tones. >>

Does the 950 have significant "red push" out of the box? What disc and menu options should I use to correct/check for this?

I already did all of UMR's suggested tweaks.

-Brian

Originally posted by Bghead8che
CNET posted a review of the 50 inch model today. The found the following:

<< Out of the box, the color decoder exhibits significant red push, but thankfully that can be corrected with calibration by a qualified technician. If you don't opt for professional calibration, you should reduce the color control to get rid of any reddish cast in skin tones. >>

Does the 950 have significant "red push" out of the box? What disc and menu options should I use to correct/check for this?

I already did all of UMR's suggested tweaks.

-Brian

AXIS is what can eliminate red push. You can check with DVE or Avia using the color bars and the red filter.

While on the subject of the CNET review, their major gripe with this set is the lack of input-specific settings, so that differences between display devices can be individually corrected.

Not having spent any time in the service menu, but having read all of this thread, it seems like it MAY be possible to use the service menu to do this. People have described SM settings to compensate for differences between S-video and component signals, for example, which are on different inputs.

So....can this be done? Is it already included in the tweaks instructions by default, since they call for each input and type to be adjusted separately?

Thanks,

HDD

HardDrive,

Yes, look through the thread again and you will see that MID1-4 are the input specfic settings you can adjust.

Josh.

UMR, i sent an email to several ISF technicians..to get some quote...and this is what one of the tech's reply...i'm not sure if he's accurate....just food for thought for me and others...cause other ISF tech quoted me $400 to calibrate my GWIII. Btw, is that reasonable price?

Quote:
"There is only so much you can do with an LCD driven set. I am not sure
it would be money well
spent for a "professional" calibration. But if you want to spend the
money, you will need someone that
understands these sets in particular. I do not work on consumer
electronics, however.
Unfortunately nobody comes to mind that I could refer to you.
Also, if you DO have it calibrated, make sure you have ALL your sources
ready and hooked up.
Good luck"

Originally posted by MadChemst
HardDrive,

Yes, look through the thread again and you will see that MID1-4 are the input specfic settings you can adjust.

Josh.

Many of the adjustments are input specific. I believe they are looking for the user type not geometry. Those would be UBOF, UPOF, UCOF, UHOF and SHOF. Read the first post it talks about these.

Originally posted by akusnowo
UMR, i sent an email to several ISF technicians..to get some quote...and this is what one of the tech's reply...i'm not sure if he's accurate....just food for thought for me and others...cause other ISF tech quoted me $400 to calibrate my GWIII. Btw, is that reasonable price?

Quote:
"There is only so much you can do with an LCD driven set. I am not sure
it would be money well
spent for a "professional" calibration. But if you want to spend the
money, you will need someone that
understands these sets in particular. I do not work on consumer
electronics, however.
Unfortunately nobody comes to mind that I could refer to you.
Also, if you DO have it calibrated, make sure you have ALL your sources
ready and hooked up.
Good luck"

That is not an unusual price. I would not pay it unless you don't think you could master the first thread. You could buy a light meter and Avia for $200 and be able to do everything I suggested. You could also repeat it later if a new bulb has different gray scale.

His statement is accurate, but not very useful. There is only so much you can do with any TV and you would always want to have all of your devices hooked up.

where do i buy the light meter again? and from where? do they provide instruction on how to use such equipment?

thanks a lot

Originally posted by akusnowo
where do i buy the light meter again? and from where? do they provide instruction on how to use such equipment?

thanks a lot

Here is where I got mine.

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/AEMC/EnvironmentalTesters/ca811ca813.htm

They do not instruct you how to use it. The first thread talks about it along with other posts in this thread.

UMR, finally I dive myself into the SM and did exactly what you recommended on the settings. Thanks....

Couple questions though, when I use the THX optimizer, during the display of the bordered circle..the display is not centered..so I centered it using one of the service menu...is this correct move?

then somehow I'm still getting jiggy lines on the edge of the borders....do you know how to correct this?

Originally posted by akusnowo
UMR, finally I dive myself into the SM and did exactly what you recommended on the settings. Thanks....

Couple questions though, when I use the THX optimizer, during the display of the bordered circle..the display is not centered..so I centered it using one of the service menu...is this correct move?

then somehow I'm still getting jiggy lines on the edge of the borders....do you know how to correct this?

Centering the image with MID1 and THX Optimizer is fine.

When are you seeing jiggy lines and with what sources? This could be a deinterlacer problem or a scaling issue.

Have any 950 owners successfully calibrated their grayscale?

Care to provide instructions? I'm very interested in adjusting my grayscale but I don't know how to do so.

-Brian

"When are you seeing jiggy lines and with what sources? This could be a deinterlacer problem or a scaling issue"

UMR, i'm seeing jiggy/jaggy lines when I connected my dvd725p player on video 5 input. I tried turn on/off progressive mode (interlace,etc.)...and no difference..The vertical lines on the each border is not straight..like broken into several portion.

any clue?

UMR, finally I dive myself into the SM and did exactly what you recommended on the settings. Thanks.... Couple questions though, when I use the THX optimizer, during the display of the bordered circle..the display is not centered..so I centered it using one of the service menu...is this correct move?

akusnowo,
I've seen the same exact thing with THX Optimizer. The grid is down and left. On AVIA the geometry looked good for me. I think the THX Optimizer geometry is wrong. I'd check another source if I were you before making those changes.

The jagged edges you see around the circle in the middle are artifacts that I see as well. I only see them over DVI and I don't know how to fix it. I don't notice any problems with normal viewing though.

Charles

<<The jagged edges you see around the circle in the middle are artifacts that I see as well. I only see them over DVI and I don't know how to fix it. I don't notice any problems with normal viewing though.>>

Everyone will have jaggies on the circle to some extent, especially at the top and bottom.

I have tried two different players and they both exhibit jaggies on this. You can minimize the problem but there is no way to completely remove the jaggies.

-Brian

Originally posted by akusnowo
UMR, i sent an email to several ISF technicians..to get some quote...and this is what one of the tech's reply...i'm not sure if he's accurate....just food for thought for me and others...cause other ISF tech quoted me $400 to calibrate my GWIII. Btw, is that reasonable price?

Quote:
"There is only so much you can do with an LCD driven set. I am not sure
it would be money well
spent for a "professional" calibration. But if you want to spend the
money, you will need someone that
understands these sets in particular. I do not work on consumer
electronics, however.
Unfortunately nobody comes to mind that I could refer to you.
Also, if you DO have it calibrated, make sure you have ALL your sources
ready and hooked up.
Good luck"

The tech you quote says himself that he doesn't work on consumer electronics, so it's doubtful his opinion would be the best to go by.

In any case, I disagree with his advice. I've calibrated a few of the GWIII sets and the improvement is significant. You can do all sorts of adjustments with grayscale, color decoder correction, manage "image enhancement" etc.

$400 seems a little high for this set, primarily because the grayscale setting is global - you only need to do it once. I charge significantly less for additional scan rates over the base calibration on most Sony sets than I do for most other brands, due to this.

Originally posted by Bghead8che
<<The jagged edges you see around the circle in the middle are artifacts that I see as well. I only see them over DVI and I don't know how to fix it. I don't notice any problems with normal viewing though.>>

Everyone will have jaggies on the circle to some extent, especially at the top and bottom.

I have tried two different players and they both exhibit jaggies on this. You can minimize the problem but there is no way to completely remove the jaggies.

-Brian
I observe no visible jaggies on the circle or horizontal lines with the 16:9 pattern for THX Optimizer. However, I do see some raggedness or jaggies on the vertical lines. This appears to be in the source.

These observations apply to these devices:

- CinePlayer on my PC with a Radeon 7000 and Apple 17" LCD monitor
- LG LST-3510A on 720p and 480p with a Polaroid 17" LCD TV.
- Panasonic DVD-XP30 with Sony KF-50XBR800.

UMR - I am still waiting on my dish 811 box. Would you wait until I get the HDTV hooked up before I do the SM tweaks?

Originally posted by m_nieft
UMR - I am still waiting on my dish 811 box. Would you wait until I get the HDTV hooked up before I do the SM tweaks?

I would not wait, but you would need to repeat the tweaks for HD.

just got my gwIII (not XBR) and love it, but is there any way to turn down the greens.. would perfer not to go into the service menu, but if that is the only way, will do it.

bigbw

To get the best results, you're really are going to need to go into the service menu.

Where do you see the greens??

I don't have a problem going into the sm if necessary.. The greens I am referring to are the green parts of the picture.. They are just very bright, I tried the Hue control in the user menu, but it does not do much good.. You can really see it watching something like the golf on tv today.. The green grass almost looks neon..

If I have to go into sm, what exactly controls the green color..

bigbw

ps: does anybody know the remote code for a samsung sat receiver that works with the gwIII remote..

Originally posted by bigbw
... what exactly controls the green color..
...

The source material, source device, color decoder (GYR, GYB, AXIS...) and gray scale (cuts, drives) all can effect the color presentation.

Thanks.. Suspect I will just have it professionly done..

Originally posted by bigbw
Thanks.. Suspect I will just have it professionly done..

AXIS alone is likely to fix the problem. I would try that first along with the other SM tweaks if it was me.

Hello all,

This is my first post in the forum, so please excuse me if I didn't do it right. I've been reading it for almost a year though, and would like to thank everybody, and especially umr for the great contributions.

To make the long story short, I got the 60XBR800 back in August. I implemented umr's tweaks for GWII and was very happy with the results. However, the set had a problem with greenish tint in parts of the screen, especially noticable with B/W material. Sony was going to replace the "optical engine" (which I understand is everything from the base up), but it took few months to get the parts ordered, and then couple of appointments were canceled for various reasons (technician out sick, delay of parts delivery, etc.) On that ground I was able to negotiate an upgrade/replacement with the manager -- I was offered a no-charge 60WE610 replacement and an "upgrade-fee" 60XBR950. I opted for the XBR and after another two months, I finally received it 2 weeks ago.

Here are some observations/questions I have:

- burn-in -- my understanding is the LCD projection sets don't suffer from burn-ins, but I started seeing something that resembles exactly that. I first noticed it just 3-4 days after I got the set watching hockey on HD-Net. On a mostly white (ice) screen in 16:9 mode I can see difference (contrast/brightness?) on the sides in the areas where the black bars are in 4:3 mode. I've never watched the set in "torch mode", so I don't think it may be caused by continuous 4:3 viewing;

- screen-door effect. It looks to me it is much more noticeable on the GWIII, it never bothered me on my old GWII. I have picture/brightness properly set, but hate to see it ruining otherwise perfect picture, especially in HD. Is there something that can be done to improve it, or should I learn to live with it?

- interlaced vs. progressive DVD watching. As recommended in this thread, I would expect better performance feeding 480i signal to the set. However, while sharpness and color seem to be better in interlaced mode, I see a lot of jagged lines. Switching to progressive scan improves the jaggies, but makes the picture somewhat softer and washed out. I'm using component connections.

The label on the back of the set shows Jan 2004 as manufacturing date. I just checked the lamp hours in SM and 130 seems adequate number since I got it, maybe a bit high. I'd be happy to hear any comments and opinions on the above issues.

Thanks!

chicho,

Have you done the SM tweaks on your new set? If not I would suggest you do that first.

Burn In - Torch mode does not apply to LCD. It is possible to see temperature effects. The brighter (hotter) bulb in the GWIII XBR may have some issues here. These are reversible, but may take time to eliminate. You might also be seeing problems with uneven levels from the polarizer. This is also fairly common in LCD.

SDE - I have not noticed this being worse, but it may be more noticeable with the very bright image these sets have. Try watching it with higher levels of room lighting. HD on the GWIII XBR sets I have seen looked better than any GWII once the SM is tweaked .

480i/p - I currently recommend using a properly tweaked progressive input. I saw no reason for 480i to generally be better than 480p unless your player is flawed.

umr,

Thanks for the fast reply. Having the experience with your GWII tweaks I was convinced that it should be one of the first things I should do when I receive the new set. While waiting for it to arrive, I studied this thread carefully and was ready to implement the tweaks the first chance I get. I received it on Friday afternoon and dedicated Saturday on implementing the tweaks. Great results, thank you again!

It's comforting to hear there's no permanent damage/burn-in. I've been watching it since I first noticed the effect and it seems to have improved a bit, but still there. I hope it will go away one day, I will report it here as soon as it happens.

As for the SDE, I noticed the room lighting effect on it and I'm working on it. It also almost disappears couple of feet further from my normal viewing distance, so moving the couch may be another solution.

I'm also planning on trying different DVD players to see if it makes any difference. The last segment in THX/Avia resolution patterns flickers in 480i, so I am concerned it could be a problem with TV's de-interlacer...

Thanks again!

480i/p

I'm using a high end Sony RDR-GX7 DVD player with the GWIII and SM tweaks applied. I too find progressive to be softer in comparison to interlaced.

Originally posted by chicho
...I'm also planning on trying different DVD players to see if it makes any difference. The last segment in THX/Avia resolution patterns flickers in 480i, so I am concerned it could be a problem with TV's de-interlacer...

Thanks again!

I was not be able to totally eliminate the flicker on 480i and not loose resolution. A good 480p player is the best choice. I would use a Panasonic DVD-XP30 if you can find one at a reasonable price.

My first time here and I tried the SM tweak for my 60XBR-950. I was able to change all the values except for the "Axis" (Factory setting is 3) value. Umr, do you know why it wouldn't let me change the "Axis" value.

P.S.- after the tweaking, it does look better than before. I also notice that the black color is much better and some improvement on the grave scale.

Originally posted by intense1
My first time here and I tried the SM tweak for my 60XBR-950. I was able to change all the values except for the "Axis" (Factory setting is 3) value. Umr, do you know why it wouldn't let me change the "Axis" value.

...

I doubt it would not let you change it. I would bet you were doing something wrong. I would give it another try. The colors will be off if you don't.

UMR: It is obvious that you are the man to ask so here it is. By the way this is my first time getting into the discussion. I have recently applied umr's SM settings and used the THX Optimizer on the Star Wars 2 DVD. I see an improvement in my picture quality, especially with regards to face tones in film content, yet I do notice that content (more specifically text-content) appears to be blurry.

If it helps I am using:

KF-50WE610
Samsung HD931 at 720P~Video 7
Monster DVI cable

I took the plunge this weekend and applied the SM changes to my KF-42WE610. I definitely notice some difference in the picture. It was really difficult to get the sharpness right (and I'm still not sure if it is). I wound up just putting it in the middle range of numbers.

I also picked up a bias light from the hardware store (5000K) and hooked it onto the back of the set using some removable adhesive hooks. It worked out quite nicely for about 30 bucks. If you're interested, I can post a picture of the backside (of the tv, not my butt) so you can try the same setup on your TV.

UMR - thanks for the tips!

I've considered using a backlight of some sort. Please post a picture of your setup.

Charles

Originally posted by kyteag
...I see an improvement in my picture quality, especially with regards to face tones in film content, yet I do notice that content (more specifically text-content) appears to be blurry...

I would try setting your HD931 to 480p instead of 720p. I have found the double scaling to actually hurt more than help DVD quality.

After that I would double check my user menu settings and service menu settings.

The next thing I would try is increasing sharpness some.

Following that I would look at the frequency sweep on THX and see if it is rolling off at the end. I would look for player specific settings that could be effecting performance if the frequency sweep is not close to perfect. I would dump the Samsung player for a quality analog player if it is still not performing well. I prefer the Panasonic DVD-XP30, but Denon makes some nice players as well.

Originally posted by umr
AXIS alone is likely to fix the problem. I would try that first along with the other SM tweaks if it was me.

I went into the SM last night and AXIS was set to 0 for both DTV inputs. I asked my wife what she thought of the greens and she said they were fine. Maybe it's just me.. I tend to see a green tinge to things, especially things that are supposed to be white.. Could it be something else that needs setting ??

bigbw

bigbw

Check your color temperature in the user menu. Its probably set on cool as the default.

On new sets, you would get a more neutral white with color temp changed either to neutral or warm. (I've seen it go both ways)

My limited experience is that LCD sets tend to shift to the blue as they age. This can be compensated for within service menu settings. What I don't know is when the bulb is eventually replaced, if some of this blue goes away and everything color related has to be reset.

umr,

sorry to post a GWII question here, but i need your advice re: my dvd PQ. your tweaks have improved my overall PQ dramatically, and i wanted to thank you for improving my set. please take a look at the "umr does gwii" thread when you have a chance. just had a quick concern re: my dvd pq.

thanks again- imo, you are a true sony tweak expert.

bigbw,

Definately check your color temperature or gray scale or picture level. Off color whites is not a color decoder problem.

Is anyone here in Canada and running an ExpressVU 6000 IRD? If so, have you found your settings to be better setting the HDTV setting to 720P or to 1080i ? The menus are much smaller in 720P respectively.

Thanks,

Josh.

UMR-

Thanks for the tips. The blurry text may have a lot to do with the tv's sharpness settings. I looked through all my inputs as well as the cable connection and notice that it applied to all of them. I am assuming it is my lack of my skill in adjusting the sharpness in the UM with THX. I am not sure I understand what exactly the lines are supposed to look like... Any tips?

kyteag,

Here is a quote from THX:

"Adjust your Sharpness control until the lines in the multi-burst signal become "edgy", then reduce the setting until the lines are well defined, but not overly enhanced. Over adjusting can cause the picture to appear too "crisp", while under adjusting can make the picture appear to be "soft" or slightly out of focus. "

The multi-burst pattern should look smooth and evenly progress to tighter spaced lines. I prefer the sharpness pattern on Avia for this adjustment because it contain horizontal and vertical patterns along with crossing lines that should not have ghost images.

UMR-

Thanks, I think I'm going to take your advice and go buy the Avia disk.

Originally posted by umr
bigbw,

Definately check your color temperature or gray scale or picture level. Off color whites is not a color decoder problem.

the color temp was on Neutral and changing it to cool or warm seemed to help. The first few things in your tweeks appear to be for gray scale, is that correct ??

Originally posted by bigbw
the color temp was on Neutral and changing it to cool or warm seemed to help. The first few things in your tweeks appear to be for gray scale, is that correct ??

Around step 55 is where the gray scale adjustment is discussed. Unfortunately gray scale is not easily put into a step procedure.

UMR,

Thanks for the great tweaks. My set looks pretty good now, but there's one problem. On 'Standard' mode, I moved the POP setting from 59 to 58 and it made a huge difference in the sharpness. I also did this in 'Vivid' mode, but for some reason, even after saving changes, when I exit the service menu, the image has noticeably changed back to 59. I re-entered the service menu, and confirmed that it has indeed changed back to 59. I tried this a couple times. Why won't it allow me to change this setting to 58 in 'Vivid' mode??

Marc.

Madchemst,

On Expressvu, NBC, CBS, CITYTV-HD and PBS are all 1080i. The rest of the HD channels are 720P. I find by setting the Expressvu 6000 HDTV setting according to the channel, you achieve the best picture quality. For example, watching Alias on ABC, at 720P looks nice and sharp, but watching Alias on ABC with the reciever set to 1080i , it looks less sharp and a bit more 'fuzzy'

Marc.

Originally posted by Marc D Carra
UMR,

... On 'Standard' mode, I moved the POP setting from 59 to 58 and it made a huge difference in the sharpness. I also did this in 'Vivid' mode, but for some reason, even after saving changes, when I exit the service menu, the image has noticeably changed back to 59. I re-entered the service menu, and confirmed that it has indeed changed back to 59. I tried this a couple times. Why won't it allow me to change this setting to 58 in 'Vivid' mode??

Marc.

The POP settings in MID5 will not stick. I would try DCP-ADJ2 Item #16 MIDE. I believe this is where the POP value is stored although I have not verified this. You can also go in and edit the values under MID5 used with POP 58 by writing them down and manually changing POP 59 to equal POP 58.

I just checked and my current POP value is 79. MIDE is set to 52. Making changes to MIDE has no effect on POP.

Is there a write up anywhere on each of the registers for the SM?

Thanks,
Vidkidd

Originally posted by vidkidd
...Is there a write up anywhere on each of the registers for the SM?

Thanks,
Vidkidd

Not that I have access to.

Originally posted by vidkidd
I just checked and my current POP value is 79. MIDE is set to 52. Making changes to MIDE has no effect on POP.

...

To test this you would need to change the value of MIDE for a mode. Use VIVID for example. Change the value from 59 to 58 while in VIVID. Then write it to memory. Cycle to PRO and then back to VIVID. Now see if POP is set at 58 instead of 59. You have proved this will not work or work if you have done this.

Hey, thanks for that. I'm too lazy to switch back and forth however :) I guess I'll leave it on 720P.

Quick Question for UMR:

What are the differences between MID! - MID4. I have a spreadsheet of all the SM registers and wanted to document what MID1-4 are for. Mid5 Makes sense at this point..

Thx.
Vidkidd

I have not had enough time to determine what is happening with anything other than what is in the first post on MID1-4. I would look in the GWIII HTPC posts. The other adjustments are discussed there. They tend to deal with geometry for the ZOOM modes, 4:3 and 16:9 for various resolutions.

VidKidd,

You've recorded all your SM settings? Good stuff. I am still trying to determine what the hell is causing this thing horizontal line flicker. I have played with every single POP setting from 1-170 something and watching

www.gotwoot.com in the torrents section and still I get horizontal line flicker.

I also tried circumventing the pop setting altogether by simply zeroing every mid5 filter setting but all that did was give me sharper image quality with the opportunity cost of some text ghosting. How can we simply turn off all the "crap" that this TV is using for filtering. All I really want to do is use this set as a 1:1 pixel display. Zero filtering. All of this can be done on my PC. At any rate, I have replaced my DVI cable so it isn't that and I played a bit with my horizontal and vertical frequencies in powerstrip. (No Dice.) I still have great image quality with that one exception. There must be a way to put this set into direct-drive mode and circumvent all this "crap" for us HTPC users. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Josh.

UMR,

Do you know if any of these mid5 or sharpness adjustment settings would affect the line doubling or Digital Reality Creation? It seems I'm getting noticeable blurring on horizontal movement now, especially on HD material. Any ideas?

Marc.

Marc, I removed all the UMR GWIII settings to see if that was the issue. His settings were not at fault for my issue as they remained when I went back to factory SM state. This is something else.... I want to take my PC to the store and see if I can reproduce it and if so, that eliminates the TV. Did I mention my set had some trouble firing up a week ago? The lamp light went on too but it seems to have gone away.

This might be a dumb question, but I have to ask.

I have set Cinemotion and set Reality and Clarity both to 1 for the component input my DVD player is on. The Cinemotion, Reality and Clarity options are not available, however, for the 2 inputs my satellite receivers are on, 1 component, 1 s-video. Are they supposed to be there for all inputs and sources?

Thanks,
Joe

jscuderi

I think those advanced options are not available for progressive scan inputs. If you're using component cables and interlaced, then the options appear and are made available.

Jim is correct. If you have the DVD player on progressive, you lose the option for Cinemotion on the TV. If you leave the DVD player at interlaced, and let the TV do the conversion, you get your options back. See which way looks best for you.

Since the GWIII is a 720p set, should I set my Comcast 6200 to 720p vs the default of 1080i?

Originally posted by LarryJoe
Since the GWIII is a 720p set, should I set my Comcast 6200 to 720p vs the default of 1080i?

This is not a 720p set. Assuming the Comcast box outputs quality 720p & 1080i. I would choose 1080i for 1080i broadcasts and 720p for 720p broadcasts. I would choose 1080i as a compromise if you don't want to bother switching back and forth because more things are broadcast in 1080i than 720p.

What can I say? Thank you UMR!
I'll start by saying I had never gone into a SM before on any display. Did I mention the word NEVER? To say I was a bit nervous would've been an understatement. Following UMR's exact instructions number by number this process was relatively simple.
It is time consuming, but let me say it is 100% worth every minute!
After I had made the changes in the UM, specifically Reality & Clarity each to a setting of 1...I began to question these tweaks even more as the picture became a blurry mess. But I hung in there & low & behold after I made his recommended changes in the SM, among st all my inputs...I was ecstatic with the results in Pro mode. The overall black level & shadow detail is a HUGE improvement. Not having ever found this thread I would be one of those guys watching this display in Standard or maybe even Vivid modes.:eek: Easy to say Vivid will never be used again on my set.
Standard may come in use for some sporting events, but SD & HD will be Pro for sure.
Let me add I used component for all my inputs & the Avia disk. LOTR & AOTC DVD's as a reference.
I did however miss one change/tweak to the Item name UBOF under DCP category:( Can someone or UMR enlighten me if this is a major adjustment needed & what does it change. Otherwise thank you again UMR...my 60XBR950 is an EVEN BETTER display now.
-Brian S

Originally posted by umr
This is not a 720p set. Assuming the Comcast box outputs quality 720p & 1080i. I would choose 1080i for 1080i broadcasts and 720p for 720p broadcasts. I would choose 1080i as a compromise if you don't want to bother switching back and forth because more things are broadcast in 1080i than 720p.

I stand corrected, thanks. Expains why 1080i looks better than 720p from the 6200 on my TV.

Originally posted by LOTR_GUY
What can I say? Thank you UMR!
...
I did however miss one change/tweak to the Item name UBOF under DCP category:( Can someone or UMR enlighten me if this is a major adjustment needed & what does it change. Otherwise thank you again UMR...my 60XBR950 is an EVEN BETTER display now.
-Brian S

Thanks for the feedback.:)

UBOF is an input/resolution specific offset for Brightness. To set this accurately you need test material for each resolution (1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i) and input type (component, DVI, composite). Without that it is tricky to set accurately. You will need to watch dark shows and adjust it such that the darkest details are barely visible. UPOF (Picture offset) may also be necessary to compensate for differences in the maximum signal level to avoid color shifts at high percent signal levels.

These are useful if your HD is too dark or shifting to red at high IRE levels.

Following my first attempt at UMR`s tweaks

Thanx.

My results have been very good. I only have cable SD, so I`m sure I`m not getting the kind of picture some people have using your tweaks and HD. After performing all the picture related tweaks using DVE I played with the geometry somewhat. My overscan now is about 3% for both 16:9 and 4:3. I tightened up the 4:3 using the MID2 horz size and my PQ clarity improved considerably. Thanx again.

To position the 'Panel Window' I used

MID1

#12-DHPO
#14-DVPO

I assume they are Digital Horz Position Offset & DVertPOffset?

Anyone know for sure or have other comments?

What is needed to adjust geometry? I have AVIA, Sound and Vision, THX Optimizer etc.

Which pattern is best to use? And which menu settings? A brief intro to correcting geometry would be great!

-Brian

GWIII Service Menu tweaks to eliminate image loss in stretch modes.

Sorry can't post links yet.

Originally posted by SonyWE610Owner
Following my first attempt at UMR`s tweaks

To position the 'Panel Window' I used

MID1
#12-DHPO
#14-DVPO

I assume they are Digital Horz Position Offset & DVertPOffset?
Anyone know for sure or have other comments?
SonyWE610Owner,
Are you sure you used MID1, #12 and #14? The item # and names should be:

#9 MDHP - Horizontal Position
#10 MDVP - Vertical Position
#11 MDHS - Horizontal Size
#12 MDHO - Horizontal Offset
#13 MDVS - Vertical Size
#14 MDVO - Vertical offset

If I remember correctly, #9 and 10 are used to position the active 'Panel Window'. I seem to remember that #12, Horizontal Offset, only moves the right edge of the Window.

Originally posted by SonyWE610Owner
My overscan now is about 3% for both 16:9 and 4:3. I tightened up the 4:3 using the MID2 horz size and my PQ clarity improved considerably. Thanx again.


I'm pretty new to this, so how does changing the screen geometry improve PQ clarity?

Originally posted by bobby_t1
I'm pretty new to this, so how does changing the screen geometry improve PQ clarity?

It generally does not improve clarity. It can increase the amount of the image you are seeing. The GWIII sets I looked at have had about 3-5 percent overscan and have been reasonably well centered. Playing with these settings can cause some problems with the set synchronizing with other resolutions if you are not careful.

Thanx chiifac you're right, my #12 & 13 & names were incorrect. No reference when I was typing the post. Thanx for the clarification, this is what I thought they were for, and how I used them.

I used the #0 DHPH & #12 MDHO setting to position the 'panel window' horz during overscan positioning and sizing, and the #1DVPH & #14 MDVO setting to do the vert for the 16:9 full setting. Once that was done, I used the MID2 settings to 'tighten' up the horz overscan in the 4:3 normal window.

Thanx umr. I assumed that these settings would not change PQ, but wasn't sure. I would have to believe now that the MID2 settings caused my preceived PQ improvement.

bobby_t1, I didn't expect anything to happen on PQ either, and I do wear glasses, so...

I tried umr's tweaks last night and ended up going back to Vivid mode. The tweaks made my picture, especially letters on the screen, very blurry and fuzzy. Did I do something wrong? I was actually hoping these tweaks would fix a problem I have been seeing with red/purple edges on skin tones, etc. I went back to Vivid and checked many of the setting in the SM. To my surprise many of the setting in Vivid are already VERY close to umr's tweaks.

Any ideas as to why the guide adn letters on the screen became very blurry with these tweaks?

Also, any suggestions on how to correct my purple/red problem stated above?

Thanks, this is a great board!!!

UMR,

VidKidd and I can't seem to save our MID5 POP settings. We know how to write settings but still no dice. We hit MUTE then ENTER but the settings never take. Any ideas?

42 WE and Vid's is a 50, methinks.

Thanks,

Josh.

Originally posted by MadChemst
UMR,

VidKidd and I can't seem to save our MID5 POP settings. We know how to write settings but still no dice. We hit MUTE then ENTER but the settings never take. Any ideas?

42 WE and Vid's is a 50, methinks.

Thanks,

Josh.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3416142#post3416142

I recently received a set of the Kodak tricolor filters to make adjustments to the color decoder. They do vary from both the Avia and the DVE filters.

Color looked good the night before the bulb died. It did seem that my blacks were loosing detail, though, and I sure didn't need that bias light. Guess the picture was dimming. As I recall, even under axis "0" the TV still had some red push and green was actually under the target setting (what would you call this, pull?) Don't know how much of this had to do with a soon to fail bulb. It'll be interesting to see how many of my settings change with a new bulb.

My Apologies, Jim. Too bad we can't make it stick.

Josh.

UMR

New bulb arrived so I'm back at redoing grayscale and color decoder settings. (basically playing with the Kodak tricolor filters )

In the first post, you state
RYB (Red level for color decoder)
RYR (Red hue for color decoder)
GYB (Green level for color decoder)
GYR (Green hue for color decoder)

I'm a little confused, isn't "RYR and GRY" for levels and "RYB and GYB" for hue?

As a side note, the grayscale of a soon to fail Phillips bulb is different than with a new Osram bulb. The most significant difference is in the blue cut and the overall brightness had decreased a couple of weeks prior to bulb failure. It was hard to get a bright picture in a room predominately lit with daylight streaming through the windows. I guess the brightness and contrast controls can only do so much to adjust the picture when the bulb is starting to fail.

Also, its a good idea to keep a spare bulb on hand as the turn around time between a service call and actually receiving a bulb runs about 2 weeks. Replacing the bulb only takes about 5 minutes. Fortunately, I had ordered a replacement bulb as a spare a few days before the original one failed.

Originally posted by JimP
...I'm a little confused, isn't "RYR and GRY" for levels and "RYB and GYB" for hue?...

Obviously, I believe differently. It does not really matter if you can accurately adjust the decoder.

Sorry to be dense, guys but I can't seem to find the THX Optimiser patterns on the Star Wars II disks.
Can someone please enlighten me?
Thanks

Originally posted by whmills
Sorry to be dense, guys but I can't seem to find the THX Optimiser patterns on the Star Wars II disks.
Can someone please enlighten me?
Thanks

Run, do not walk, away from doing the service menu tweaks if you can't find the THX Optimizer test patterns on AOTC.

Originally posted by umr
Run, do not walk, away from doing the service menu tweaks if you can't find the THX Optimizer test patterns on AOTC.

hehehe ..sorry , but I'd take UMR's advice!


Otherwise...its an option found from right there in the main menu screen:rolleyes:

Originally posted by umr
Run, do not walk, away from doing the service menu tweaks if you can't find the THX Optimizer test patterns on AOTC.
I had difficulty finding them myself, and I consider myself technically competent, in spite of what anyone else might say :-)

The problem is that they hide the THX logo in the background, somewhat, and it's not obvious that it's a menu option. That is to say, it is not as prominent in the screen as the other menu selections are. Maybe it's just because it's the THX logo and I don't associate a THX logo on a DVD as being anything other than a THX logo.

naimis

Thanks for the civil reply. I too didn't even bother to look closely at the logo.

I too consider myself technically competent, as I have been into electronics for over 40 years, and have my general class Amateur Radio license. I have built literally dozens of computers, audio electronics and yes TV's, including the calibration of such.

umr is great in that he shares info like on this thread and I appreciate everything he's doing except his last comment.

Thanks again.

Originally posted by whmills
...umr is great in that he shares info like on this thread and I appreciate everything he's doing except his last comment.

Thanks again.

Sorry you took it personally. But, I would still suggest people not enter the service menu unless you are very familiar with how your equipment works. Maybe you are. I really have no idea.

However, several people have messed up their GWIII's by attempting to adjust the service menu and getting in over their heads. I really don't enjoy hearing from those who have gone down that path.

Please don't ask me for help if you have problems since you are obviously qualified to fix any problems you may encounter.

UMR, THANKS FOR DOING A GOOD JOB. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. HAVE YOU EVER GOT THE SERVICE MANUAL & OR MODIFIED ANY OF YOUR ORIGINAL TWEEKS ? I REMEMBER ONE TIME YOU AND A MEMBER WAS GOING OVER THE UBRT & UBOF SETTINGS. WHAT WAS THE FINAL INFO ON THAT. IF YOU COULD GIVE EVERYBODY SUGESTIONS ON SETTINGS IN THIS MENU. I NOTICED FOR EXAMPLE I THINK BLACK LEVEL ENHANCER WORKS GOOD IN LOW FOR THE BLACK LEVEL TESTS. OPEN TO ANYBODY ON SOME OF THE RESULTS THEY HAVE HAD. YES THE SERVICE MENU IN THIS SET IS UNREAL COMAIRED TO MY 9 YEAR OLD ZENITH SERVICE MENU. ALSO YOU DID A GOOD GRAY SCALE IN THE USER MENU . DID YOU EVER SET GRAY SCAL IN SERVICE MENUE FOR X.B.R. G.B.

Please take off the caps, its impolite.

umr - I have had a 60' Sony LCD (non XBR) since October and was hesitating putting time into calibrating it further than using VE because it failed to come on at times and I was thinking about exchanging it for a different brand. I received a replacement Phillips lamp in January and it has worked flawlessly since so now I am going to keep the GWIII. Did you ever do the tweaks for this TV or did you only do them for the XBR model? Are they similar? I haven't had a chance to go through the entire thread to check but are the tweaks the ones near the beginning of the thread and you have just edited them as needed? thanks for your assistance.

Troy,

Read the entire first post in this thread it addresses the WE and XBR versions of this TV. They are very similar.

G.B.,

I don't own the service manual for these sets, but I have looked through one. The first post in this thread contains all of the tweaks I am recommending. I do not plan on doing any more of these for free so I doubt I will have any new suggestions in the future. I would guess the black level enhancer is altering gamma. I did not see a need to modify gamma beyond what I recommend, but if you like it go for it.

Sorry for the caps. In radio & TV. broadcasting copy,we alway's lock into caps, it makes copy reading easier. If anybody has some suggestions on menu settings please post some examples. D. R. C. , wide mode , Also we have not had any suggestions on the expanded menu , has anybody have any ideas ? For example Cinema Black. Thanks, G. B.

UMR,

I have used the suggested settings for my 42" GWIII. I seem to still have that "red push" that is pretty common with these sets. Any suggestions?

TLS

UMR,

I have used the suggested settings for my 42" GWIII. I seem to still have that "red push" that is pretty common with these sets. Any suggestions?

TLS

umr:

Thanks for the tweaks, and your advice along the way- I have followed this thread pretty religiously, and instituted your recommended changes easily (except for the Gamma/Push things- those are above my level of expertise, and I know when to quit!)

Anyway, I have the 50", and by and large, it looks great. Good enough that even my wife noticed a difference. So thanks!

I have come upon a problem though that I am not sure is a result of your tweaks, or a result of overcompression in broadcasting. I think it may be a combination of the two. Thought I would post this, and see if you have any suggestions.

I am starting to see "banding" I guess- not sure if that is the correct term. Basically, when a BG is a fairly consistent color, I see bands of a color, then bands of the next, graduated color. I have attached a JPG image of the sort of thing I am seeing- this is exagerated, so hopefully you will know what I am talking about.

I have played a bit with sharpness, thinking that might take this out (or smooth it over) No Joy. I was hoping you might be able to point me toward where I might be able to adjust this out, or minimize it.

I usually notice this OTA in 1080i... a good place to notice it is over a network logo, or when a character stands in front of an evenly lit wall.

TIA!

Dave

carfac,

It could be caused by your calibration, STB or the broadcast itself. It is hard to say which is at fault. What STB are you using?

Originally posted by terrance_s
UMR,

I have used the suggested settings for my 42" GWIII. I seem to still have that "red push" that is pretty common with these sets. Any suggestions?

TLS

Many people incorrectly call something "red push". What are you seeing that you call "red push"?

umr:

Yeah, it is pretty hard to nail down the culprit, isn't it?

I use the Samsung 351 STB...

If you would like, I can test some with DVD's or other sources.

I just really saw it last night in a 1080i PBS show on whales.... the blue water had the bands in it (underwater). That station has one 1080i and two 480i substations, so there is some amount of compression on that station.

Thanks!

I have a Samsung T165 which I would rate a relatively poor compared to my LG 3410A. I don't have experience with the model you have, but the Sony and LG STB's look better to me.

That is not to say the station is not the cause of what you saw. Pixelation is very common on 1080i.

UMR,

My reds look a bit orange and bleed a bit as well.

TLS

Originally posted by terrance_s
UMR,

My reds look a bit orange and bleed a bit as well.

TLS

I would look at the color decoder settings RYR and RYB using Avia or DVE. You may throw the other inputs off adjusting for your DVD player if it is off though.

UMR.

I'll look into this this weekend.

Thanks

For anyone interested in the THX Optimizer mentioned in the UMR docs, you can get the Star Wars II DVD (which THX Optimizer included) for about $8 used on Amazon.com and on eBay as well for about the same or less.

Originally posted by buzzword
For anyone interested in the THX Optimizer mentioned in the UMR docs, you can get the Star Wars II DVD (which THX Optimizer included) for about $8 used on Amazon.com and on eBay as well for about the same or less.

I think it's also on Pirates of the Can o' beans.

umr:

For what it's worth, I think I found the problem (with my pixelization), or at least a way to mellow it.

According to one recomendation, I adjusted USHP (USRP?) in DCP-USER. Rather than set to a recomended number, I used a sharpness scale, and set it to what (I thought!) was the correct setting on my TV. I think it might have been a bit high.

I brought it down, and it seems to have helped.

As a reference we could all use, I used the shots of Dory and Marty after the pelican drops them in the water by the bouy after they fail to rescue Nemno in the Dentists office. The green water in the BG of these shots shows the pixilization well. Or it can.

Curious what others may have set this to. I ended up at 1.

Originally posted by carfac
umr:

For what it's worth, I think I found the problem (with my pixelization), or at least a way to mellow it.

According to one recomendation, I adjusted USHP (USRP?) in DCP-USER. Rather than set to a recomended number, I used a sharpness scale, and set it to what (I thought!) was the correct setting on my TV. I think it might have been a bit high.

I brought it down, and it seems to have helped.

...Curious what others may have set this to. I ended up at 1.

That is the value I recommend from the user menu.

This is my first Post! And an extreme newbie, so bear with me if I'm asking a redundant question. Just got my 60WE610. Applied UMR tweaks for 480p only to test.

After I made my changes to a category (ex: DCP-User (Category)

UPIC changed from 46 to 58 ) and I hit muting (Write appears in green) and then hit enter (back to Service).

Then I turn the TV off and then back on and then return back to the service menu to see if the changes took. The UPIC setting is still 46 and unchanged! Am I doing something wrong? Also does it matter if I'm in Wide, Wide- Zoom, Full, etc? If each picture ratio need it's own tweaking (like the inputs Video 1, Video 2?)

Your help in this is greatly appreciated!!

That is the value I recommend from the user menu.

I should have listened to the master! I was trying to make sure it (the settings) were right for me, and changing them based on my tests...

umr: 1
Dave: 0

GCFIEND,

You are not pressing enter fast enough. Write must turn red or the values are not being saved. How did you miss this in the tweaks. I put it in every time you need to save a change.

"Press Mute Enter (Write should appear in red for a few seconds if you do this correctly) to save this change. This is not reversible except by you manually changing the value back and saving it again so be sure."

Originally posted by carfac
I should have listened to the master! I was trying to make sure it (the settings) were right for me, and changing them based on my tests...

umr: 1
Dave: 0

Yep. The following is equivalent to what you did. 0 USHP in the service menu equals 1 in the user menu.

USHP changed from 36 to 0

UMR,

Thanks again for helping me out with that other thing. The boys and I in the DVI thread have been messing around and I think I've managed to bugger up my video 4 and 5 component hidef inputs. I haven't looked at them in a while but when I went to watch Enterprise tonight, all the channels seem to have some heavy "Aliasing" around the edges of things. Even the PBS 720P demo channel. I've checked my Hidef test videos with my DVI input in HTPC mode and no such damage exists. Any idea which setting I could have mistakenly changed? Heh, it'd be nice if I had the default settings for everything since I've backtracked all the settings I know I've changed and can't seem to get to the bottom of it.

Any idea what I did?

Josh.

Originally posted by MadChemst
UMR,

...Any idea what I did?

Josh.

Sorry, but no. This is why I said you could mess up your picture fiddling with the geometry settings. It is easy to change values that impact other resolutions differently. I have not had enough access to these sets to understand how the parameters in these work.

Pressing TV/Video to skip through inputs, I have disabled (set as SKIP) all inputs I don't use, however just before Video 1, I always have to go through an input that is a snowed out screen with the actual channel number on it. Any idea how I can disable that somewhere so I can just skip from my Video5 directly to Video3, rather than having to see this between each time?

Go to the Channel user menu. There is an option called 'Channel Fix'. Select 'Video 1' as your choice. It will then skip the RF input.

Oh well. I'll mess with it until I fix it. Vidkidd was kind enough to post all his default settings which hopefully will get me back to baseline. I must have botched something somewhere :)

Thanks,

Josh.

I would like to keep track of how many "miles" my KDF-70XBR950 has on it, if for no other reason than so I will know when it is "broken in" and safe to take her over 200 MPH (fully calibrate). I seem to remember someone here posting the "exact number of hours" his TV had been used and others referencing number of hours to wait before calibrating. Anyone know how to view the runtime statistics and other technical data on the KDF-70 XBR950 ?

Originally posted by Corvette6769
I would like to keep track of how many "miles" my KDF-70XBR950 has on it, if for no other reason than so I will know when it is "broken in" and safe to take her over 200 MPH (fully calibrate). I seem to remember someone here posting the "exact number of hours" his TV had been used and others referencing number of hours to wait before calibrating. Anyone know how to view the runtime statistics and other technical data on the KDF-70 XBR950 ?

You can see the lamp hours in the service menu. It is pretty obvious. Just scroll through the categories until you see Lamp and a large number to the right.

UMR,

I have a question regarding "convergence" or the digital equivelant. As you know, we've been able to attain 1:1 mapping in the horizontal but not in the vertical. I am beginning to wonder if it is because a panel is 1 pixel to the left or right. Even with near 1:1 settings, if you examine text on the screen, on most given letters, there will be a slight reddish bloom that bleeds from the left side of the text and on the right side, you can see ever so faintly, a "clear" duplicate of the letter just 1 pixel or so over and it will overlap most of the original letter. Here is a link to an image describing what I am talking about.

Take special note of the "l" in "pixel" on the right and the "b" in be on the left.


http://free.one.picturehost.co.uk/Picture%204.jpg


I know the quality isn't the best but I will email you the original if you like. We're all pulling our hair out with this.

Thanks again,

Josh.

MadChemst,

I have not played with an HTPC on an GWII or GWIII so I don't have firsthand experience with many of the issues you are facing. However, the photo looks like an Image Revision problem. The GWII offered a service menu adjustment that was useful for tweaking this. It is labeled V POS D. I have not seen this in the GWIII, but something like it may exist.

Is this happening in XBR and WE GWIII's?

UMR,

Mine is a 42WE610, Vidkidd's is an XBR950 60 inch so yes, both XBR and WE. I think this is an issue affecting anyone with a GW3. It is possible that this also affects GWII users as well but I have not been able to ask anyone with one. In addition to this issue but not to sidetrack too much... in the nokia test patterns, there is excessive noise that comes in equal length waves that run from the bottom left corner of the screen to the top right. They are evenly spaced and have what seems to be a constant velocity. It is slow enough that you can track it with your eyes. Also, I surmise that this is the root of the 1 pixel wide horizontal line flicker we are experiencing. I am curious as to whether the issues are somehow related. It's unfortunate that you aren't with us on this HTPC issue, there are some decent minds on it right now but you're the one person I've met that seems to have a relative understanding of how the service menu items are interrelated. Well... you and Vidkidd anyways. I'm just a beginner. If you have any hints on where we should be looking, please let us know.

With much appreciation as always,

Josh.

Here are some threads you might want to check out. I have not seen what you are seeing on my display with text. I also did not see it on the ones I calibrated with DVD and HD signals.

I find it odd that the XBR and WE versions are behaving the same way. The XBR sets performed significantly better on HD than the WE with 720p test patterns.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=189307

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=1515752&highlight=GWII+native#post1515752

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=208574&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

Here is an example of small text at 1080i on my GWII. This is from the channel guide on my LG LST-3410A.

Originally posted by MadChemst
...In addition to this issue but not to sidetrack too much... in the nokia test patterns, there is excessive noise that comes in equal length waves that run from the bottom left corner of the screen to the top right. They are evenly spaced and have what seems to be a constant velocity. It is slow enough that you can track it with your eyes. Also, I surmise that this is the root of the 1 pixel wide horizontal line flicker we are experiencing. ...

I have seen the horizontal line flicker on all of these sets including mine with 720p test patterns. I have not found a way to eliminate it. I only see it at the highest frequency and large amplitude sine wave signals. I have not found this to be an issue in real world text and images in HD or SD resolutions.

The waves could be caused by how the LCD's are refreshed and may not have a solution.

Hey UMR.

on a 60XB950, If I display a white screen and draw a black box, the right edge of the black box has a slight red bleed on the side of the image.

On a white background, the following boxes have these effects:
- Red has a shadow in the right.
- Yellow is clean
- Green has a shadow l/r
- Blue has a shadow l/r
- Magenta has a shadow r
- Cyan has a shadow l/r

I also created a test pattern: GWIII HTPC Block Test Pattern (http://www2.handheldgames.com\gwiii_dots.gif) that displays a series of white blocks on a black background. These blocks havd a different bleed color on different edges based on their on-screen location.

Upper Left - Clean white Box
Upper Middle - Red on Bottom
Upper Right - Red Left, Green RIght

Upper Left - Clean white Box
Middle Center - Red on Left
Middle Riddle Right - Red Left, Green RIght

Lower Left - Magenta Top, Orange Left, Bottom Green
Lower Middle- Magenta Top, Orange Left, Bottom Green
Lower Right- Magenta Top, Orange Left, Bottom Green

Any thoughts on this one??


Thanks,
Vidkidd

UMR, on my HDTV receiver, text looks rock solid, it also looks perfect in movies that have relatively small subtitle text. Bear in mind however, that size 8 and 10 text in windows is considerably smaller than anything that would exist in a guide system and so imperfections are more evident. If I use the service menu, I can blur the text and thicken it up to compensate but this ruins the overall image quality and sharpness. Thanks for the links but they're not what we're looking for.

Can someone with the ATI DVI to Component adapter try this out and see if you experience the same issues? I'm wondering if it's a DVI only issue. If so, I may eventually be persuaded to give up on my $200 DVI cable and buy the ATI HDTV component dongle. Sharpening the text and getting rid of that noise would make the image quality as good as a plasma. I don't notice ANY pixellation or noise in ANY of my 30 channels of hidef unless it's REALLY windy or raining like hell. This has something to do with either the way the set takes the DVI signal or the way the PC is throwing itout. I am sure that this is where our 1:1 vertical issue is coming from though. Wish I had an adapter to test the component 1:1 myself. Thanks for the help again, UMR.

Here are some more images of what I am describing. It seems that my settings look considerably worse than yours, Datalux. I wish I had a better camera to show you.

http://free.one.picturehost.co.uk/Picture%208.jpg
http://free.one.picturehost.co.uk/Picture%2010.jpg

Hope these are a bit more obvious.

Let me know what you think, guys.



Josh.

Vidkidd,

I would guess the non uniform behavior and much of the slight color bleed is related to lens aberrations. All RPTV's exhibit this behavior to some extent because optics that don't would add thousands of dollars to the cost of the TV. Here is an example of what I am talking about. However, the pattern you are seeing is pretty odd. It might also be related to other optical problems.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/CanonG5/Samples/Fringing/IMG_1776.jpg

I have seen some problems with Y/C delay on my LG LST-3410A over DVI. Have you looked for this? This causes color alignment problems if it exists. A test pattern like the one found on Avia should be relatively easy to duplicate.

MadChemst,

I would suspect some type of problem between the PC and the TV if your HD looks rock solid. The GW's were never intended to work with PC's.

The fact that you are not seeing pixelation in OTA HD is actually a bad sign. OTA HD is not perfect. 1080i is very difficult to compress and the bandwidth available OTA is insufficient to do it without blurring the image or pixelating.

I did not want to say this before, but someone at Sony told me the GWIII's are inferior to the GWII in component quality. He thought the GWIII was incapable of reaching the same performance level. This could make it difficult to match the GWII performance if it is true. I would assume he is right since he is at the factory where these are assembled.

Originally posted by umr
Vidkidd,

I would guess the non uniform behavior and much of the slight color bleed is related to lens aberrations. All RPTV's exhibit this behavior to some extent because optics that don't would add thousands of dollars to the cost of the TV. Here is an example of what I am talking about. However, the pattern you are seeing is pretty odd. It might also be related to other optical problems.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/CanonG5/Samples/Fringing/IMG_1776.jpg

I have seen some problems with Y/C delay on my LG LST-3410A over DVI. Have you looked for this? This causes color alignment problems if it exists. A test pattern like the one found on Avia should be relatively easy to duplicate.

Those are pretty bad chromatic abberations . Is it the Canon G5 thats creating them or making them worse ? It's very typical in P&S cameras around lights and such.

The biggest problem I'm seeing is still an unsharp picture.

My Samsung DLP , I was able to get very sharp ... (Enough for a 50" screen) If not for the Rainbows and poor blending in colors (clay face ?) off video sync , "mosquitos effect" and blooming .... It would have been fine :D

Maybe I'm asking too much out of these $3-4000 sets .

Has anyone managed to get their GWIII screen picture to look as sharp looking as a DLP ?

It seems to me that I am getting a very slight ghosting pattern (Left to right) .... while watching movies like "Pirates of the Caribbean" what I am seeing (And what can best be seen) is undefined edges around the characters facial outlines . Instead of a sharp cut off lets say around a nose and cheek bone ... I see the end of their face and then another fine dark line .

It give the impression of it being out of focus or fuzzy ... just slightly.

Any ideas ?

Petre

What's your signal source?

JimP

Hey Petre

I would be interested to hear how some SW tweaks I am running on my set compares to what you saw over on the SAMSUNG DLP. My 1080i OTA and DVD's are displaying more detail than I have been able to get out of the GWIII to date.

You can grab a spreadsheet here: GWIII SM Excel Worksheet (http://www2.handheldgames.com\gwiii.xls)

If you use this, make sure you insert a new column to track your current settings b4 tweaking.

The full discussion about getting the best HTPC picture for the GWIII, which does seem to effect the performance for DVD's and 1080i playback is here:GWIII / ATI / Powerstrip - Custom Resolution Timing Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=362324)

Thanks,
Vidkidd

Originally posted by JimP
Petre

What's your signal source?

JimP

Its happening on all signal inputs .. but the one it bothers me on the most is the DVD.

I'm using component connection 480p and 480i (have tried both)

The DLP I had was very sharp with 480p and not great with 480i (Though quite good)

The GWIII LCD RPTV I have now seems about equal on progressive or interlaced.

Originally posted by vidkidd
Hey Petre

I would be interested to hear how some SW tweaks I am running on my set compares to what you saw over on the SAMSUNG DLP. My 1080i OTA and DVD's are displaying more detail than I have been able to get out of the GWIII to date.

You can grab a spreadsheet here: GWIII SM Excel Worksheet (http://www2.handheldgames.com\gwiii.xls)

If you use this, make sure you insert a new column to track your current settings b4 tweaking.

The full discussion about getting the best HTPC picture for the GWIII, which does seem to effect the performance for DVD's and 1080i playback is here:GWIII / ATI / Powerstrip - Custom Resolution Timing Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=362324)

Thanks,
Vidkidd

Hey Thanks Vidkidd ... I'm going to try it.

Thus far the DLP had the sharper more detailed picture , but suffered from other abberations that made it not for me.

If I could get the GWIII close to the razor sharp pic I achieved with the Sammy DLP I'd be very happy as all else is very good.

Hey UMR,

Over a DVI connection, I could not hel but notice that the REDS on the GWIII are over saturated and almost glowing. Small items containing a large variance of RED would loose all the pixels with the lower values of red.

The only way I was able to get the image on the GWIII to match a LCD or VGA display was to alter these two settings:

DCP-USER RYB Current: 35
DCP-USER RYR Current :0

Any thoughts on this? When lowering those levels, the bleeding of RED seemed to vanish/

Thanks,
Vidkidd

Vidkidd

Funny that you should mention this.

What I'm finding is that axis "0" (unaltered)looks better for Hi Def
At the same time for standard def, using RYB at 18 and RYB at 31 seems to work better with whatever Green is on axis "0".

Two problems, my understanding is that the color decoders should be set differently for HD versus NTSC. You can accomplish this by setting up one of the other axis settings to use the second set of numbers. No problem here, provided you have some way of generating a HD signal that correctly represents what your stb is doing. good luck. I've asked Voom satellite to periodically broadcast these decoded test so that we could have some way of doing 1080i that includes all associated hardware. We'll see.

The other issue is when using Avia or DVE, to get the reds where they test out correctly, then they tend to be just a bit too under emphasized in fleshtone. My guess as someone who has a pretty good eye for color, but not sure how this all applies on the GWIII, something about the electronics that doesn't saturate these LCD panels correctly. Something like a color saturation is not linear to the contrast curve. Don't know, but after many hours of working with it, (yes, got the 0 RYR setting too) the test don't really seem to give you the most accurate readings. Check out the DVE red color decoder test between component 480p and svideo 480i. There is also a difference there, which baffles me even more as these should be the same.

One last thing, I can't seem to calibrate green. Using the avia filters, DVE filters and the kodak tricolor filters, there seems to be some color leaking through that make adjusting them very difficult. I wind up with some very high numbers that i don't think can be right, so I'm just using the default 0 axis green settings until I can further figure this out.

The whole color accuracy thing is very device dependent as well. Some devices do a good job and others do not. The GWIII's I looked at tracked colors well with just an AXIS adjustment. When your sources are off that can make the problem much more difficult. My Samsung SIR-T165 was a horrible compared to my LG LST-3410A when it came to this.

Trying to match an LCD or CRT display will not always be correct either. You need a calibrated source to really judge it.

Originally posted by umr
MadChemst,

I would suspect some type of problem between the PC and the TV if your HD looks rock solid. The GW's were never intended to work with PC's.

The fact that you are not seeing pixelation in OTA HD is actually a bad sign. OTA HD is not perfect. 1080i is very difficult to compress and the bandwidth available OTA is insufficient to do it without blurring the image or pixelating.

I did not want to say this before, but someone at Sony told me the GWIII's are inferior to the GWII in component quality. He thought the GWIII was incapable of reaching the same performance level. This could make it difficult to match the GWII performance if it is true. I would assume he is right since he is at the factory where these are assembled.

UMR,

It isn't a lens issue at all because menu items in 720P over component via my HDTV DBS is showing no signs of this behaviour whatsoever. Something is either misaligned or there is some filter enabled that is causing it. The abberations are uniform throughout the test and repeat per each character and not on a per character position basis. If you examine our pictures, you'll see that they in no way resemble the image you should us which simply illustrates bloom from a CRT based RPTV.

My father's GWII 60 inch has much lower image quality than my calibrated set even in hidef. In fact, his 480i and 480p is so pixellated it is almost impossible for me to watch. Try to keep in mind that I'm staring at a 42 and in comparison to a 60, the image quality will always look better because we're cramming the same pixels into a much smaller area at the same viewing distance.

It doesn't surprise me that the quality of the parts has decreased in the WE model of the GWIII and perhaps even the XBR. Consider how much the original 60 inch GWII was worth. It's obvious that to cut costs and make the sets affordable, there will be some cost cutting somewhere.

I know the sets weren't designed to reproduce PC signals but there's no reason that the set has to perform with this anomaly. The TV is doing something it shouldn't be doing and I have a funny feeling that if this setting is found and changed, not only text but movies will look much more clear. For those of us that are quality fanatics, (Like myself) I try to limit my viewing experiences to at least PAL DVD's if I can get my hands on them. HDTV content is what I wait for if the movie is good enough and with 30 channels, I don't waste my time watching anything else. Because of this, I don't mind sacrificing a little filtering to obtain perfect 1:1 pixel mapping on the PC end of things. To be frank, I'd rather just make this 42 into my only monitor and if it works out, buy a WE60 for my TV. Hell, if we can get the image quality nice enough, my desk is big enough to fit this TV on it :)

If we can only find the setting that's causing this... if it's even a setting that is.

Josh.

Try these at your own risk if you are in an experimental mood. These are guesses at Y/C delay compensation.


CCPM-1 YCDL
CCPS-1 YCDL
DCP-INT YCFS
MID1 DYCD
MID3 VYCD
MID4 DYCD
MID5 MYCO
MID5 MYCR
MID5 MYCL

These are guesses at frequency response limits:

CCPM-2 SYLP
CCPM-2 SYFI
CCPM-4 SYMD
CCPM-4 SYSC
CCPS-2 SYLP
CCPS-2 SYFI
CCPS-4 SYMD
CCPS-4 SYSC

UMR,

Thanks for the info. I tried each and every one of these. Most of which simply have an on or off setting. With the YCDL settings in the first list you have here, I was able to increase the effect of the shadowing but not reduce it. I don't know if we're any closer now than before but thanks for those settings. Maybe they'll come in handy if it's a combination of them that works. Be careful when adjusting some of these as some turn my set completely red and others move the red from left to right. None of the settings will line up the red the way we need it though.

Thanks,

Josh.

Hey MadChemst... I have tried the MID1-Mid5 Settings that UMR suggested as well. I'll agree in your observations that they do not effect our problem.

This and the and luminance map ghosting are two things im looking for solutions to. The Service Manual in all its undocumented form. At least it lets me know whether the section deals with video or not.

More reading to go...

Thx.
Vidkidd

I have a 42" gwIII. I hate the blurry pro mode. I love standard and vivid modes. Is there 1 or 2 settings I can change to make pro look as sharp as standard mode. Can you list what I have to change and what values to change to? I tried some of the tweaks mentioned in first page, but did not see a huge difference.

abarsami

You really should do all the tweaks before deciding. Several are interactive so you won't see the net effect without doing all of them. Also be sure to read the extra comments regarding sharpness that UMR provided.

Ensure you mild-mode is on for 480p on Pro and you should get added clarity. I find with mild mode off it is blurry. Mild mode doesn't do anything to 1080i fed stuff.

If I need brightness on 1080i input down by 2 from what it's at on 480p, can I just bring whatever UBOF is at down by 2?

How does this work, as my default UBOF is 35 on 1080i and 29 on 480p, but brightness on each is at around 40.

What is UBOF's relationship and how does it affect UBRT?

Joe

UBOF is an offset to the overall brightness setting set by the user menu. Its resolution and input specific(dependent).

You may find that the number of click to not be the same as if you adjusted it in the user menu.

While you're at it, they're also other offsets that may help you fine tune the picture for each input.

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
Ensure you mild-mode is on for 480p on Pro and you should get added clarity. I find with mild mode off it is blurry. Mild mode doesn't do anything to 1080i fed stuff.

I disagree with this unless you want to loose information in the original signal in exchange for sharper looking edges.

UMR,

Pro is way too blurry in 480p with Mild-Mode off. I'll recheck my service menu settings with mildmode off in case something didn't get set right, but I can see a drastic change when I turn it off/on.

With 1080i, the change is non-existent.

Originally posted by JimP
Joe

UBOF is an offset to the overall brightness setting set by the user menu. Its resolution and input specific(dependent).

You may find that the number of click to not be the same as if you adjusted it in the user menu.

While you're at it, they're also other offsets that may help you fine tune the picture for each input.


Do you find that on 1080i (component)vs 480p that you have to tune down brightness manually in the User Menu from what it was set at in 480p?

This is after applying UMR's service menu tweaks.

If I don't tune brightness down on 1080i (component), then I get a grey veil over everything (sort of like SDE).
I only have to tune it down 2 notches in the UM, so my question is how much do you think I need to bring down UBOF to match it, as I want to keep 480p brightness where it is.

Hi , I would try two steps down. If it's 35, make it 33.....I think UMR has it down to 31....G.B.

Originally posted by G.B.
Hi , I would try two steps down. If it's 35, make it 33.....I think UMR has it down to 31....G.B.

He's actually got it at 35...I'll try 33.

UMR,

I stand corrected about Mild Mode. Off is better, it only seemed worse because my SHF0 was set at 15.

SHF0 is recommended to be set to 15 for all inputs in your tweaks. I find that keeping (480p) at 13, or setting (1080i) SHF0 to 13 makes things crisper and less blurry in Pro mode..
This may also help the guy here that was asking how he can make Pro mode more clear and less blurry.

Any ramifications that you see at keeping SHF0 at 13 for both 1080i and 480p?

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
He's actually got it at 35...I'll try 33.

UMR,

I stand corrected about Mild Mode. Off is better, it only seemed worse because my SHF0 was set at 15.

SHF0 is recommended to be set to 15 for all inputs in your tweaks. I find that keeping (480p) at 13, or setting (1080i) SHF0 to 13 makes things crisper and less blurry in Pro mode..
This may also help the guy here that was asking how he can make Pro mode more clear and less blurry.

Any ramifications that you see at keeping SHF0 at 13 for both 1080i and 480p?

I don't agree with this advice either. Why don't you start a Joe F. thread?

You think you own this thread? Thought it was pretty open for anyone to discuss stuff in.

UMR,

Why don't you tell me why you don't agree with keeping SHF0 at 13?

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
UMR,

Why don't you tell me why you don't agree with keeping SHF0 at 13?

I have seen what values other than 15 do to HD and SD test patterns and it alters the signal.

I did start the thread to recommend settings. I don't think it makes much sense to argue about these things when I won't alter my position.

I don't want to alter your position. I simply want to share my experiences with tweaking this set and find out if others have had similar experiences.

Your settings made great improvements in the picture quality, however I personally have noticed improvements beyond that with some subtle changes such as the SHF0 to 13 change.

I want to know if others find that changing to SHF0 improves over your suggestion.

No offence intended.

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
I don't want to alter your position. I simply want to share my experiences with tweaking this set and find out if others have had similar experiences.

Your settings made great improvements in the picture quality, however I personally have noticed improvements beyond that with some subtle changes such as the SHF0 to 13 change.

I want to know if others find that changing to SHF0 improves over your suggestion.

No offence intended.

What test patterns and equipment are you using to make these judgements?

I implemented your tweaks using DVE, but I don't need any equipment to determine that SHF0 on my set is clearer when set to 13 vs 15 in Pro mode for all inputs.

The change between 13 and 15 especially in 480p is like putting on a better set of glasses to watch TV. The picture becomes slightly sharper and less soft. If you move SHF0 any lower than 13 (let's say to 9), then the outside lines of images get blurred.

UMR, you should try it just for kicks and describe to me what you see in image clarity (i.e. better or worse).

Joe

Excuse me for butting in, but what you are seeing with a SHFO of 13 is more horizontal edge enhancement. (Went back and double checked)
In simpler terms what it is doing is adding highlights to the right and left of objects.

As a test put up the Avia resolution test pattern. Look at the solid vertical lines as you adjust SHFO from 15 to 6. With the lower numbers the edge enhancement will really stick out. With a setting of 15, there is no horizontal edge enhancement.

Artist will often paint a thin white line around their subjects in order to create the illusion of sharpness. I suspect this edge enhancement is attempting to do the same. Main difference is that the TV software can't distinguish which lines to use enhancement and which ones not too, so when implemented, its applied to everything.

As to which is correct for a tweaks thread, I think we should respect the originator's opinion and if we find some other setting that we prefer then let that be your personal tweak.

"UMR does GWIII XBR & WE".

With respect, he owns the thread, along with my respect.

Josh.

I had some time to play with by 70" this weekend. UMR's settings as listed are just about perfect. As shipped 480p does show significant loss of resolution. After calibration with Avia resolution matched the 6.5mhz UMR was able to obtain. Out of the box the XBR's grey scale was noticeably better than my old 60" GWII. Overall this set is far more pleasing on HD and the additional size is dramatic at 14' distance.

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
I implemented your tweaks using DVE, but I don't need any equipment to determine that SHF0 on my set is clearer when set to 13 vs 15 in Pro mode for all inputs. ...

Like I thought.

Read JimP's comments they are dead on.

Yeah, Jim P is right. And he said it without being snarky either.

Joe,

With all due respect, why not try your settings against the tried and true methods: i.e. DVE/AVIA/THX/Nokia test patters like the rest of us before posting vacuuous and benign comments while wasting more space and time on this thread? Nobody is being "Snarky" with you. If I could draw a parallel, it's like a 1st year math student with limited skill trying to explain superstring theory to Einstein. At the risk of blowing smoke, try to trust in the notion that UMR is respected because he produces solid results again and again. If you want to butt heads with Einstein, at least test your theories before wasting the time it takes me to read them.

<insert snarkiness here>

Josh.

I trust and implemented UMR's tweaks and they greatly improved my PQ. Einstein has my full respect.
<insert sarcasm here>

I apologize for wasting everyone's time.

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
I trust and implemented UMR's tweaks and they greatly improved my PQ. Einstein has my full respect.
<insert sarcasm here>

I apologize for wasting everyone's time.

You don't have to agree. Many people like their images enhanced. It is just not what is intended by the broadcaster, director.....

Very true, and I don't want my picture enhanced, but I just find that when I adjust UBRT to the proper level using DVE (UPIC at 58), blacks in Pro mode look too gray and soft.
I now agree with you that SHF0 should be 15, but the only fix for the grey thing in Pro mode is to turn down UBRT below what it should be according to DVE, and to also set UADP to 1 for 1080i input only (480p UADP is still 0).

Joe Figueiredo,

I would suggest you try adjusting UGAM (gamma) along with UPIC and UBRT. Default gamma in Pro is at the low end of what is considered acceptable. This allows you to see black details better, but some people prefer higher contrast. I would try the UGAM setting for Standard followed by that used for Vivid. That should bracket it for you.

I'll give it a shot with UGAM. Do blacks get darker as you increase UGAM?

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
I'll give it a shot with UGAM. Do blacks get darker as you increase UGAM?

It changes the shape of the luminosity versus the input signal curve. The level of 0% black can only be reduced by inserting a filter in the light path. However, you can change the response curve with UGAM. This usually requires a recalibration of picture and brightness when you make a change.

Just setup bought my GWIII 50(refurb from sony), Comcast is bringing out my HD Cable Box tomorrow. Is there a specific cable box model I should be trying to get from them? Hopefully I can begin my tweaking soon and hopefully I can read this whole thread. My current DVD player is a Sony DVP-S300, its about 6 years old and isnt progressive scan. I need a new player, what is the most bang for the buck DVD player that looks good on this TV. I really would like to stay under $150. In UMR's tweaks should I go thru my whole DVE disk setup first in the user menu before going to the service menu, or the other way around.

Thanks in advance!
SMD

Originally posted by umr
It changes the shape of the luminosity versus the input signal curve. The level of 0% black can only be reduced by inserting a filter in the light path. However, you can change the response curve with UGAM. This usually requires a recalibration of picture and brightness when you make a change.

UMR, thanks for the useful info.
So I suppose you would suggest only adjusting the UGAM up and leaving UADP at zero?

Hey umr, reading the exchange with Joe F. on SHFO 13 or 15 and it made me realize the difference between your settings and my professional calibrators. If you recall, after my calibration I noted that his settings were *almost* identical to yours and you asked me which one was off. Either the DVD/component or the HD/DVI was still at 13, not both. I changed it to 15, that was the only change I made to his settings to mirror yours.

Originally posted by SuperMegaDope
Just setup bought my GWIII 50(refurb from sony), Comcast is bringing out my HD Cable Box tomorrow. Is there a specific cable box model I should be trying to get from them? SMD

Super...
If they have them in stock I would request the Motorola 6208 w/80gbyte DVR. I have this fairly new model & its pretty nice. Not sure if your DVI port will be working though, you'll have to ask your local Comcast installer.
Best,

Brian S

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
UMR, thanks for the useful info.
So I suppose you would suggest only adjusting the UGAM up and leaving UADP at zero?

I would leave UADP at zero. You really need a good light meter if you want play with gamma with any accuracy.

Originally posted by SuperMegaDope
...My current DVD player is a Sony DVP-S300, its about 6 years old and isnt progressive scan. I need a new player, what is the most bang for the buck DVD player that looks good on this TV. I really would like to stay under $150....

That was my first DVD player (am on my fourth).

I just replaced my Panasonic DVD-XP30 with a multi-region Denon DVD-3800. I can highly recommend this player. The deinterlacer is not quite as good, but most other things are better. Colors and signal levels are more accurate and the gray scale looks smoother. It is also multi-region capable with PAL to NTSC conversion. The resolution appears to be about the same with maybe a slight edge to the Denon. It does not fit your under $150 target.

Umr,

I just got my GWIII Friday. I am getting ready to calibrate following your directions. I have a couple of questions first:

1. TW provided a Pioneer 3510HD box. I currently have it connected via component cables. Should I set the STB to output only the GWIII native resoulution (720p) or should I set it to all the modes supported and let the GWIII convert?

2. Is it better to use component or DVI with the GWIII?

3. Is there any way to tell what the incomming signal being feed to the GWIII is?

Now the big question. In the step by step instruction you mention setting all the picture controls on the DVD to "neutral" position. There are a bunch of setting on my Pioneer DV-37 that I don't know what "neutral" is. Here are a list of the settings and there current values. If you could please let me know what is the correct setting prior to calibration I would appreciate it.

Prog. Motion: 50%
PureCinema: off
YNR: 50%
CNR: 50%
MNR: 0%
BNR: 0%
Sharp High: 50%
Sharp Mid: 50%
Detail: 75%
White Level: 50%
Black Level: 50%
Black Setup: 7.5IRE
Hue: 50%
Chroma Level: 50%
Chroma Delay: 50%

Thanks so much.

esterbenz,

I doubt I can answer all of your questions about how to setup your DVD player.

1. & 2. Read the recommended settings in the first post of this thread. It discusses this.

3. Read the first post in this thread. It discusses how the resolution is displayed in the service menu.

I would expect the settings in your DVD player are close to neutral. The 7.5 IRE black levels are correct for 480i, but 0 IRE should be used for 480p.

Originally posted by umr
I would leave UADP at zero. You really need a good light meter if you want play with gamma with any accuracy.

Yeah, I think I'm going to leave things the way they were (i.e. your tweaks). I can adjust brightness down enough that I may lose some detail in the blacks, but at least I don't get that "veil-look" over everything.

Question about DVD players: What do you think of the Panny RP-62, but without the Faroudja chip as compared to with it.

The place where I bought it from said Panasonic has assured them that there is no noticeable difference in picture quality between the two types of RP-62s.

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
...Question about DVD players: What do you think of the Panny RP-62, but without the Faroudja chip as compared to with it.

The place where I bought it from said Panasonic has assured them that there is no noticeable difference in picture quality between the two types of RP-62s.

I have not seen these two so I can't comment from personal experience. I would probably pass based on Secrets review. I would reject it for y/c delay problems. I can highly recommend a Denon DVD-3800 if you can pick one up used and get one with all the fixes installed. It is a very sweet player with few faults.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=6&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0#PanasonicDVD-RP62

Looks like a nice player, unfortunately I've already purchased (months ago) the Panny RP-62. Looks pretty good, but just haven't tried out another one like the one you are suggesting. Wondering if I should look at upgrading anyway within the year.

UMR,

I have a question. I calibrated my set this past weekend and on Monday morning, my bulb went out. Do i need to recalibrate the set when I get the new bulb from Sony?

Thanks for the help.

Originally posted by terrance_s
UMR,

I have a question. I calibrated my set this past weekend and on Monday morning, my bulb went out. Do i need to recalibrate the set when I get the new bulb from Sony?

Thanks for the help.

I would check the gray scale and color decoder calibration.

I got up close to my set last night and hit mode and noticed HUGE convergence issue! next to the white text to the right is blue and the left is green, a full pixel on each side. I could have sworn i saw a thread on this issue before but after searching this morning i can find it(only one saying the guys colors were messed up after getting his convergence fixed).
I thought I remembered seeing that this wasnt a fix that couldnt be done in your home.

Wife just called and said Comcast has installed the HD box but she didnt know which one so I will have to wait till I get home.


UMR: thanks for the tip on the DVD player, I wish I could get that but honestly Im not sure how I got the 50 inch GWIII past my wife, i know im not gonna be able to get a high end dvd player too. I was thinking about the bravo for the digital connection before when I was considering the HS-20 projector but I think ive read that the 1to1 digital input on the GWIII isnt great quality.

Thanks,
SMD

I need to sell my XP30 if anyone is interested PM me.

Originally posted by SuperMegaDope
I got up close to my set last night and hit mode and noticed HUGE convergence issue! next to the white text to the right is blue and the left is green, a full pixel on each side. I could have sworn i saw a thread on this issue before but after searching this morning i can find it(only one saying the guys colors were messed up after getting his convergence fixed).
I thought I remembered seeing that this wasnt a fix that couldnt be done in your home.

Wife just called and said Comcast has installed the HD box but she didnt know which one so I will have to wait till I get home.


UMR: thanks for the tip on the DVD player, I wish I could get that but honestly Im not sure how I got the 50 inch GWIII past my wife, i know im not gonna be able to get a high end dvd player too. I was thinking about the bravo for the digital connection before when I was considering the HS-20 projector but I think ive read that the 1to1 digital input on the GWIII isnt great quality.

Thanks,
SMD

That's where I'm heading with this ... :(

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=376812&pagenumber=2

The other "problem" I am having is a "grainy noise" in the picture. a lot of times i notices it in the background not the main focus point. I am hoping UMR's tweaks clear this up. The main problem I have with the convergence is from the experience on my pc monitors. when the convergence is off things are blurry and colors not as saturated du to them not being lined. I reeeally want to keep this set I have been drooling over it since they came out, but I also dont want to pay this kinda $ for a set that is not as good as the same set others have.

SMD

It sounds like your experiencing the same problems as me.

I spoke with a Service Tech in our area who claims the convergence cannot in any way be altered by a user otr tech , but rather it requires a light engine replacement.

Then he told me the light engine for the KF50WE610 is about $3500 which is more than I paid for the whole TV.

He said yep ... Sony does that on purpose.

I'm hoping he's wrong about the convergence not being at all adjustable.

In my search yesterday for similar problems to mine I looked at 5 KF50WE610's and 3 had bad convergence issues.

I first discovered this "test" when watching a DVD I'd brought to compare the picture to mine . I noticed a greenish hue arounf the facial outlines when against a bright back drop (The salesman all played dumb for a bit)

Since they were "having trouble" seeing it while moving .... I hit FREEZE .... which of course stopped the frame on the right while continuing to play on the left .....

There clearly was a green cast outline around the charachters nose and cheek bone .... but looking down I discovered something much more startling. A 2 pixel wide EDIT : "Purplish" cast down the same side of the white word FREEZE and an equally wide cast of red on the left side of FREEZE !

This , there was no mistaking in any way ... and the sales man immediately said boy your right that is way out of convergence! (He then claimed it could be fixed , to which I took with a grain of salt)

I next brought up the DISPLAY text and sure enough , the same green and red casts at opposite sides of the OSD white text on the top left and bottom left .

I then used this same test on 4 other TV's thinking ... hey maybe it's just something that's on all of them . This store had 1 other 50" and a 60 , 70 and 43 .

ALL displayed differently in this white text.

The other KF50WE610 was razor sharp , with absolutely no color bleeding into the white text word FREEZE ... however at the top of the screen in the input description it had a green cast to the left side of the text about 2 pixels wide.

The others too had issues in different corners . Only the 43 was perfect on all corners.

I then went to 3 other stores and did the same "test" and found only one other TV that was good at all corners .

My TV is showing just the green on the left side of text on the left side of my TV top and bottom Worst on the top . The bottom right is actually almost perfect.

This is where my blurry / out of focus picture is coming from.

Petre,

I use only HD signal and HTPC DVD playback but I can assure you of one thing. The problem you are experiencing exists on ALL GWIII units I have seen. Everyone working on the "ghosting" issue for HTPC is experiencing the same kind of bloom as you. I am unsure as to the degree of it for you but my menus are razor sharp. For us, Vidkidd came to the conclusion that is an issue of DVI implementation for ATI Radeons. The fact that you are experiencing this in a non-htpc environment makes me all the more curious. I have suggested numerous times that I thought it was a convergence issue. Perhaps there really is one. My HD and DVD playback are mint though. I've got a good eye too :)

Josh.

Originally posted by LOTR_GUY
Super...
I would request the Motorola 6208 w/80gbyte DVR. I have this fairly new model & its pretty nice.

They brought out the Motorola 6200 (no dvr:( ). I wasnt there for the cable guy my mother in law was. I called them yesterday morning around 7:00 am and requested the 6208 and left a note with my mil to give him requesting the 6208 and to hook it up thru DVI if possible. He told her he could only give me what he had in the truck , a 6200.
I looked at the motorla website and it says that is has DVI on the 6200 but I can seem to find it. Heres the rear pic http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/images/dct6200_back.jpg
and here is the info page for the 6200 Motorola 6200 (http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/products/DCT6200/default.asp)

Are GWIII users using the DVI for the cable input and find they atre getting a better picture?

Thanks,
SMD

DVI is primarily a copy protection issue. You could have the broadcast resolution dropped on the component outputs.

DVI may or may not be better than the component output depending on how the device handles DVI. I have no idea which is best with any individual cable box if analog and digital outputs are both enabled for HD. DVI outputs are not always enabled either at this point in time. Theoretically DVI should be the best connection type to use, but reality is sometimes different.

Originally posted by MadChemst
Petre,

I use only HD signal and HTPC DVD playback but I can assure you of one thing. The problem you are experiencing exists on ALL GWIII units I have seen. Everyone working on the "ghosting" issue for HTPC is experiencing the same kind of bloom as you. I am unsure as to the degree of it for you but my menus are razor sharp. For us, Vidkidd came to the conclusion that is an issue of DVI implementation for ATI Radeons. The fact that you are experiencing this in a non-htpc environment makes me all the more curious. I have suggested numerous times that I thought it was a convergence issue. Perhaps there really is one. My HD and DVD playback are mint though. I've got a good eye too :)

Josh.

At this point after looking at many different sets ... I'm sure it's a convergence issue.

The onscreen displays from the TV on not dependant on signal input whatsoever and that is where I am seeing the convergence problems in the white text.

Mine is actually razor sharp in one corner but misconverged on the other. Speaking with a Tech who will be at my home possibly today ... he said convergence is set at the factory and is unchangeable ... however , being just a service man I'm not sure how much he really knows about these sets.

One he said that he's seen that was particularly bad , he replaced the light engine on as there is no other fix.

Petre,

I hope your expectations are not too high. No RPTV is going to be perfect. Replacing the light engine can be a mixed bag. Here is a photo of my set compared to a CRT RPTV.

Originally posted by umr
DVI is primarily a copy protection issue. You could have the broadcast resolution dropped on the component outputs.

DVI may or may not be better than the component output depending on how the device handles DVI. I have no idea which is best with any individual cable box if analog and digital outputs are both enabled for HD. DVI outputs are not always enabled either at this point in time. Theoretically DVI should be the best connection type to use, but reality is sometimes different.

My 6200 has a DVI port but it is not enabled by Default and comcast says will not/can not. Called Motorola and was told software/bios udate would do it but they won't do it? Motorola Tech told me to request the 6208 HAS DVI out, said he personally has seen quite a few of them and advised me to to ask for one. Comcast is telling me they don't have the DVR recorder available ANYWHERE in comcast's areas! I was put on some priority list for future contact.;)

I have converged CRT'S & BIG SCREENS for years. We started in the center & worked our way out. you never could get it perfect to the ends of the screen , so you had to find a happy stopping point. Then we would & this is the most important step......back up to the normal viewing point......how does it look. If you could not see red ,blue ,green , at the edge of any line you got it......If you did you would tweak till you could not. we do not watch our t.v.'s with a magnified glass. I have found this the main reason I got L.C.D. The first one I got to see I could not see how they converged so good on a big screen.

Originally posted by G.B.
I have converged CRT'S & BIG SCREENS for years. We started in the center & worked our way out. you never could get it perfect to the ends of the screen , so you had to find a happy stopping point. Then we would & this is the most important step......back up to the normal viewing point......how does it look. If you could not see red ,blue ,green , at the edge of any line you got it......If you did you would tweak till you could not. we do not watch our t.v.'s with a magnified glass. I have found this the main reason I got L.C.D. The first one I got to see I could not see how they converged so good on a big screen.

One of the big advantages of LCD, DLP and LCoS is the ability to have all of the light going through a single lens. You avoid the problem of having off-axis light sources that must be brought to focus on a single plane. The light source may also be collimated.

Originally posted by umr
Petre,

I hope your expectations are not too high. No RPTV is going to be perfect. Replacing the light engine can be a mixed bag. Here is a photo of my set compared to a CRT RPTV.

Hard to tell from that pic on my monitor (It's running at 1800 x 1440 on 21") , but I do not see the misconvergence I am seeing on some of these sets.

It is a very distinct color on white text menus on the left and right sides of the text.

If you push "display" it brings up white text on the top left corner and bottom left and right corners.

A close look on many sets reveals a misconvergence of color bleeding into the text of one to two pixels. , ususally only left to right , but mine actually has a pixel of color bleeding in from the top as well. :(

Originally posted by umr
One of the big advantages of LCD, DLP and LCoS is the ability to have all of the light going through a single lens. You avoid the problem of having off-axis light sources that must be brought to focus on a single plane. The light source may also be collimated.

UMR do you know if this is correct .

The Service Tech I spoke with said the 3 panels are configured in a kind of "U" shape . and that they are fixed with no ability mechanically or digitally to converge these panels.

Do you think this is correct or do I have a shoemaker for a service tech ? :confused:

Originally posted by Petre
UMR do you know if this is correct .

The Service Tech I spoke with said the 3 panels are configured in a kind of "U" shape . and that they are fixed with no ability mechanically or digitally to converge these panels.

Do you think this is correct or do I have a shoemaker for a service tech ? :confused:

That is correct as far as I know.

Hey All....

I have a slight convergence Issue that is visible from 6" or less. Lower right corner of the screen has a green issue. Upper Left has a slight blue, etc. Center is dead on. However, I do not watch TV from a 6" viewing distance. My geometry is a not 100% perfect if I underscan the image. Ok - drawbacks of the technology and things I can live with.

Am I happy with the set? Yes. Is it a DLP? No. Can I expect a LCD to perform pixel per pixel the same as a DLP? No. Does the convergence ever drift llike on a CRT? No and Thank GOD!

If you think you have a problem and you have a tech in the area you trust - then go for it. I'm in the seattle area and have not found a LCD XBRworthy tech yet.

Thanks,
Vidkidd

Tom,

DLP sucks in the implementation you're thinking of. I have a friend with a Samsung DLP and to be frank the picture sucks. This is post AVIA/DVE calibration btw.

Also,

FFDshow settings: Turn post processing on and resize to your native rez. Some people have had better luck resizing to different resolutions so long as they are similar mutliples of the original source. You can add some blur and some noise to soften the image if you want to do that but I have left those settings alone. Postprocessing and resize is enough for me.

Josh.

Originally posted by MadChemst
Tom,

DLP sucks in the implementation you're thinking of. I have a friend with a Samsung DLP and to be frank the picture sucks. This is post AVIA/DVE calibration btw....

I believe it is possible to calibrate a Samsung DLP such that it performs very respectably with respect to resolution, color and gray scale. Doing it, however, is a nontrivial exercise. More than a simple Avia/DVE calibration of the user menu is required. You need to frequently adjust the wheel timing, gray scale, gamma, color decoder and A/D settings to get a decent picture. You will never eliminate rainbows or some of the dithering problems on these sets.

I know two people here in Sugar Land who have obtained excellent results with nothing short of herculean efforts.

UMR,

I finished your tweaks, thank you for taking the time to post them for us. My question is on the sharpness setting, the USHP. I incorporated these changes using the THX optimizer on Pirates of the Caribbean disk. I could not tell any difference from the highest level to the lowest level. I changed the setting from 36 to 0 so in the user menu it shows the lowest setting but even if I increase the setting in the UM I can't tell any difference.

The colors look great but a little soft and from what I read that is normal when going from using vivid and now a correctly calibrated Pro so I think I will get used to it. It does look much better but I was just wondering if I missed something when setting the sharpness.

Thanks,
Mel

THX Optimizer is not the best method to set sharpness. You should see some effect, but the new settings make it much more subtle. I prefer Avia or VE for setting sharpness, but a value of 0 should be correct for quality devices.

Thanks, the more I look at it the better the picture looks.

mwelicka,

What is your associated equipment?

60WE610

Panasonic DVD-F85 Progressive Scan DVD via component

SA 3250HD STB from Adelphia but only one HD channel so far :mad: via component

Onkyo TX-SR501 receiver via digital optical to the DVD and digital coaxial to the STB

Bose Acoustimass 6 Series III (no Bose bashing please)
old Sharp VCR

I am now researching a center channel, can you recommend one that is affordable?

Mel

Originally posted by mwelicka
...
I am now researching a center channel, can you recommend one that is affordable?

Mel

I am not sure what you would consider affordable. I would tend to look at used to get more bang for the buck. KEF (Q9c) & Mission make some nice speakers that aren't very expensive. Veritas is highly rated, but more expensive.

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/frame.html?http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/CentreSpeakers/Kef/KefQ9C.php

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/frame.html?http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/CentreSpeakers/Mission/Mission78C.php

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/frame.html?http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/SpeakerPackages/Energy/EnergyVeritas.php

I really like my Hales Design Group speakers. They are now defunct, but you can find them on Audiogon pretty frequently. The center is the hardest to find though.

I would also lean towards speakers that are will not rot with time. Speakers with foam isolated drives fall into this category.

Thought you guys might find this interesting from Kris D:

>>>>>>>>>>

And another thing, YOU SHOULD NEVER USE THE THX OPTIMIZERS FOR SETTING UP YOUR PICTURE!!!!!!!! THEY ARE DISC SPECIFIC!

Use DVE, it is a great package and has all the patterns one needs.

>>>>>>>>>>

-Brian

Originally posted by Bghead8che
Thought you guys might find this interesting from Kris D:

>>>>>>>>>>

And another thing, YOU SHOULD NEVER USE THE THX OPTIMIZERS FOR SETTING UP YOUR PICTURE!!!!!!!! THEY ARE DISC SPECIFIC!

Use DVE, it is a great package and has all the patterns one needs.

>>>>>>>>>>

-Brian

That is true, but they are only incorrect if there is a problem in the transfer process. That is why THX requires that they be included. When a disc is authored correctly there is no difference. He is more conservative than you need to be. Actually for LCD displays the THX pattern is the best around for testing contrast/picture level problems.

You can use whatever patterns you want. I have suggested the ones that I believe will render the best results for an LCD RPTV. I am sure Kris is giving general advice.

UMR: Please forgive me if this has already been answered in this thread. If someone gave you at least 1-week to tweak each model as much as you could to get the best picture and if you also had access to the world's BEST calibrating equipment and you calibrated every rear projection LCD currently on the market to the best of your ability and had them all side by side in a light environment that you thought was fair to comparison judge all of them: Which model do you think in your own honest opinion according to what your eyes see and nobody elses would have the BEST Picture Quality? I ask the question not to start a fight because I don't have an opinion and don't know and am curious and respect your opinion.

Is there a concensus opinion on what type of DVD signal to feed the Sony 60/70" XBR, 480P, upsampled 1366, or upsampled 1080i?

Also, is there a conensus opinion on which is capable of a superior picture the 60" or 70" XBR? Logic would suggest that the 60" would just beat out the 70" just because of the smaller screen dimensions. Or is the difference neglible?

Thanks,

Damon

Originally posted by Jet Champion
UMR: Please forgive me if this has already been answered in this thread. If someone gave you at least 1-week to tweak each model as much as you could to get the best picture and if you also had access to the world's BEST calibrating equipment and you calibrated every rear projection LCD currently on the market to the best of your ability and had them all side by side in a light environment that you thought was fair to comparison judge all of them: Which model do you think in your own honest opinion according to what your eyes see and nobody elses would have the BEST Picture Quality? I ask the question not to start a fight because I don't have an opinion and don't know and am curious and respect your opinion.

How could UMR, or anyone, possibly answer this question without having first done this exact comparrison? If I recall correctly (and I'm not going all the way back through this thread to check) UMR owns a GWII. This should give you a clue as to what he prefers. Better yet, if you are unable to form an opinion on pq on your own, then don't waste your money - buy the cheapest.

Actually this response reads harsher than I intended, so take it with a grain of salt, but I think these sorts of questions are time wasters since pq is so subjective.

I think the opposite is true. I think picture quality is objective. If it isn't, then why pay a calibrator? Your opinion would be as good as his. Actually I like calibrators opinions more than the average Joe's because they are trying to maximize the constituent parts that make up picture quality and so they have an idea of approximately how much a display measures up or is deficient. People do have different tastes and needs, but calibrators opinions help us to better define what our own needs and preferences are as we are better to judge the different variables which under casual viewing we probably wouldn't do.

As for comparing apples and oranges, children do it every day. Video consumers do it when they are weighing which technology to buy or when they're weighing quality vs. size. Yes apples vs oranges is subjective like light vs. dark beer--but it makes you answer the question how good a dark beer or how good a light beer. We may like different things, but comparison of unalike things sometimes helps us understand how true to its own class of things something is.

Looks great....Less rainbows

Sorry couldn't resist and dark beer all around for everyone...it's on me :)

Originally posted by DANewsome
Is there a concensus opinion on what type of DVD signal to feed the Sony 60/70" XBR, 480P, upsampled 1366, or upsampled 1080i?

Also, is there a conensus opinion on which is capable of a superior picture the 60" or 70" XBR? Logic would suggest that the 60" would just beat out the 70" just because of the smaller screen dimensions. Or is the difference neglible?

Thanks,

Damon


I think the conscensus opinion is that it will depend on how you choose to define "superior picture".

Some would say a larger picture that's slightly less sharp is superior, while others would say that the sharper small picture is superior.

As an aside, I was getting close to buying a front projector to supplement my 60" GWIII. What I saw at a friends home was a Sharp 10000, which to my understanding is one of the better front projectors. Althought the picture was much bigger, the sharpness hit was too much. So for me, at least, its a balancing act with how much larger I can go with a certain amount of sharpness and maybe sit a little closer.

Originally posted by Jet Champion
I think the opposite is true. I think picture quality is objective. If it isn't, then why pay a calibrator? Your opinion would be as good as his. Actually I like calibrators opinions more than the average Joe's because they are trying to maximize the constituent parts that make up picture quality and so they have an idea of approximately how much a display measures up or is deficient. People do have different tastes and needs, but calibrators opinions help us to better define what our own needs and preferences are as we are better to judge the different variables which under casual viewing we probably wouldn't do.

Some aspects of pq are objective but the overall effect is most definitely subjective, otherwise we would not have so many display choices.
And yes, calibrators absolutely have a trained eye and their input is valuable to us all. But, a calibrator brings more to the table than just an opinion. A calibrator is able to make adjustments that the ordinary consumer is unable to make and additionally has tools and instruments that are not feasible for the average owner to purchase for household use. But I think at the end of a calibration, the question the calibrator must ask is, "How does it look to you?" I think a good calibrator would not be satisfied unless the customer is satisfied.

Originally posted by Jet Champion
UMR: Please forgive me if this has already been answered in this thread. If someone gave you at least 1-week to tweak each model as much as you could to get the best picture and if you also had access to the world's BEST calibrating equipment and you calibrated every rear projection LCD currently on the market to the best of your ability and had them all side by side in a light environment that you thought was fair to comparison judge all of them: Which model do you think in your own honest opinion according to what your eyes see and nobody elses would have the BEST Picture Quality? I ask the question not to start a fight because I don't have an opinion and don't know and am curious and respect your opinion.

I really don't know. I tried to get access to the other brands, but I had no takers. From what I have seen in the store and read on various forums I would guess it would go Sony, Hitachi and Panny with Sony and Hitachi being pretty close. Without access though it is only a guess.

Originally posted by DANewsome
Is there a concensus opinion on what type of DVD signal to feed the Sony 60/70" XBR, 480P, upsampled 1366, or upsampled 1080i?

Also, is there a conensus opinion on which is capable of a superior picture the 60" or 70" XBR? Logic would suggest that the 60" would just beat out the 70" just because of the smaller screen dimensions. Or is the difference neglible?

Thanks,

Damon

I don't know about a consensus, but I would use 480p for DVDs.

The difference between the 60 & 70 has more to do with seating position than anything else.

Originally posted by saberry
How could UMR, or anyone, possibly answer this question without having first done this exact comparrison? If I recall correctly (and I'm not going all the way back through this thread to check) UMR owns a GWII. This should give you a clue as to what he prefers. Better yet, if you are unable to form an opinion on pq on your own, then don't waste your money - buy the cheapest.

Actually this response reads harsher than I intended, so take it with a grain of salt, but I think these sorts of questions are time wasters since pq is so subjective.

I was actually looking at purchasing a GWIII or one of the others for my bedroom. Because of this I spent a lot of time looking at these pretty objectively. I passed on all of them in the end because of space limitations with the WAF and high black levels.

I bought a Polaroid LCD which is much better than any Sony direct view LCD.

Everyone, should buy what they like in the end. Hopefully, they will be informed though before they do.

Originally posted by umr
The difference between the 60 & 70 has more to do with seating position than anything else. I agree w/this, understanding that the 60" and the 70" use exactly the same LCD panels. My assumption therefore would be that you'd have to sit-back a bit farther from the 70" to make it "look as good" as the 60.

I have the 60", sit back about 11', and have my moments when I think I'd like the 70", but I also believe and expect that I would DISLIKE the 70 for many of the "garbage-in" programs.

My original idea for my HT was to get a Cineza HS20 and project it onto an 80 or 90" screen, but now I'm glad I didn't do that. I'm sure I would have been unhappy with all of my laserdiscs, and most of my DVDs!

Thanks for the opinion UMR. It's hard to get an opinion of what's the best rear projection LCD. I originally liked the 42-inch the best because I thought it had less screen door effect, but the 60 and 70-inch XBRs seem to have gotten better when it comes to black level.

Originally posted by Jet Champion
Thanks for the opinion UMR. It's hard to get an opinion of what's the best rear projection LCD. I originally liked the 42-inch the best because I thought it had less screen door effect, but the 60 and 70-inch XBRs seem to have gotten better when it comes to black level.

Who are you and what have you done with Jet? ;)

i put in the THX optimizer but was having some problems.

1. I could only see one shade of white in the first screen

2. on the screen where you are supposed to see the drop shadow of the THX, I didn't even see the THX


I've gotten into the service menu and made the changes listed on page 1 and it helped overall picture, but what am I doing wrong?

I have a the 60inch Grand Wega


Thanks,

Jason

jase 700

Which DVD player are you using and how is it connected to your Sony?

I have the samsung DVD with the DVI output. on the setup menu, it was showing it as 1080i.

I was playing around with the user menus on my 60XBR950 just for the heck of it today and came back to the Cinema Black setting one more time. :p I noticed when I flipped it between off and on that the change was subtle, affected even bright areas (so they weren't quite as bright), and, unlike every other setting which is absolutely instant, appeared to be gradual over the span of about a half second. This got me thinking that perhaps this setting works by dimming the lamp slightly if enabled.

After throwing up a bunch of test patterns using my HTPC (these (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=2468127) are useful for quick checking ;)) I'm even more convinced this is what Cinema Black actually does, as I don't see it adding any black crush when enabled. All I see is the whole image becoming slightly dimmer and the white balance maybe changing ever-so-slightly (which would make sense to me as a possibility if the bulb is burning slightly dimmer). So for now, at least, I've got it enabled and I'll watch for a few days to see if I notice myself missing any shadow detail that I see with it off. However, I doubt this will be the case, because as I said, test patterns seem to indicate that enabling it has no effect on the amount of crush (meaning that on my set there's still basically none :D).

jase700

Is your DVD player the Samsung 931? If so, its known for crushing blacks and many here have returned them.

What you're describing in your earlier post sounds like contrast is too high or the player is also crushing whites (no variation in white panels of test screen) and the absence of the drop shadow sounds like the DVD player doesn't pass blacker than black. There is an alternative procedure for setting brightness having something to do with adjusting it until the 7th box is just visible.

Personally, I'd return the player. It's like having retreads on a Corvette.

Do you have another DVD player?

By the way, was it the XBR version or the non XBR version of the Sony that you have? Reason being is that the non XBR doesn't seem to keep the DVI signal digital throughout the circuit. So going to the trouble to get a DVI output DVD player may not be gaining you anything.

Originally posted by jase700
I have the samsung DVD with the DVI output. on the setup menu, it was showing it as 1080i.

Dump that player. It is setup for computer DVI levels not TV.

do you think i would get a better picture using the component outputs on the Samsung?

After I calibrate colour properly using DVE, the colour pattern, and the blue filter, I notice that when looking through the red filter, the magenta and red blocks (side by side in each colour row) are not the same shade of red. Likewise, when looking through the green filter, the yellow and green blocks (in each row) are not the same shade of green.

Is this normal? Or is my colour decoder slightly off?

If I lower RYR & RYB and GYR & GYB I get more uniform colour through the red and green filters, but I'm not sure if that is what it's supposed to look like. I have to take RYR/RYB down to 0 to make the magenta and red blocks uniform in their shade of red when looking through the red filter.

Originally posted by jase700
do you think i would get a better picture using the component outputs on the Samsung?

Probably, but I have not used that player. It is infamous.

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
After I calibrate colour properly using DVE, the colour pattern, and the blue filter, I notice that when looking through the red filter, the magenta and red blocks (side by side in each colour row) are not the same shade of red. Likewise, when looking through the green filter, the yellow and green blocks (in each row) are not the same shade of green.

Is this normal? Or is my colour decoder slightly off?

If I lower RYR & RYB and GYR & GYB I get more uniform colour through the red and green filters, but I'm not sure if that is what it's supposed to look like. I have to take RYR/RYB down to 0 to make the magenta and red blocks uniform in their shade of red when looking through the red filter.

If you are seeing different shades your filter is leaking. Judging the decoder with a leaking filter is a bad idea. You should be able to confirm this by noting which primary or primaries are not black that are a different color than the filter. This is true for the green filter with Avia and DVE.

Originally posted by JimP
...So going to the trouble to get a DVI output DVD player may not be gaining you anything.

Probably true for an XBR set as well. It is more likely to cause problems than help.

Originally posted by Googer
I was playing around with the user menus on my 60XBR950 just for the heck of it today and came back to the Cinema Black setting one more time. :p I noticed when I flipped it between off and on that the change was subtle, affected even bright areas (so they weren't quite as bright), and, unlike every other setting which is absolutely instant, appeared to be gradual over the span of about a half second. This got me thinking that perhaps this setting works by dimming the lamp slightly if enabled.

After throwing up a bunch of test patterns using my HTPC (these (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=2468127) are useful for quick checking ;)) I'm even more convinced this is what Cinema Black actually does, as I don't see it adding any black crush when enabled. All I see is the whole image becoming slightly dimmer and the white balance maybe changing ever-so-slightly (which would make sense to me as a possibility if the bulb is burning slightly dimmer). So for now, at least, I've got it enabled and I'll watch for a few days to see if I notice myself missing any shadow detail that I see with it off. However, I doubt this will be the case, because as I said, test patterns seem to indicate that enabling it has no effect on the amount of crush (meaning that on my set there's still basically none :D).

This should improve PQ in lower lighting and extend the bulb life. Cinema Black on Sony's front projector's reduces the light output exactly as you describe.

Originally posted by umr
If you are seeing different shades your filter is leaking. Judging the decoder with a leaking filter is a bad idea. You should be able to confirm this by noting which primary or primaries are not black that are a different color than the filter. This is true for the green filter with Avia and DVE.

Do you mean that if I hold up the green filter, any colour block that is not black is leaking?

Do you think the set is then defective and I should take it back under warranty?

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
Do you mean that if I hold up the green filter, any colour block that is not black is leaking?

Do you think the set is then defective and I should take it back under warranty?

Green Filter - Blue not black (blue is leaking)
Green Filter - Red not black (red is leaking)

Red Filter - Green not black (green leaking)
Red Filter - Blue not black (blue leaking)

This has nothing to do with the set. It is the filter that is flawed not the TV.

Got it...
But I'm getting blacks so it doesn't appear anything is leaking.

Maybe I should clarify what I'm experiencing when looking through the red filter:
The magenta and red blocks are not the same shade of red. The red block is slightly brighter/lighter, and the magenta block is slightly darker. This is especially true on Pro and Standard modes, however in Vivid, the difference becomes considerably less apparent.

It should also be noted that I have set up picture the same for Standard and Pro, but tuned down for Vivid, and colour/hue are both set up the same for all three modes (values of 30 in the SM for all modes and for both colour and hue).

JoeFigueiredo,

What you are describing is a decoder error. All colors that are visible should be the same intensity/shade.

You may have picture too high if the difference lessens in Vivid. The panels will saturate at some point. The best way to check this is with the THX Optimizer pattern using the color filters. When the panels start to merge together looking through the filter is when the level is too high.

Joe

One more sticky issue when working with the color decoder.

Your DVD player could very well be causing some of what you're seeing. The other night I took my Denon 2900 over to a friend's to compare to his Denon 5900. (Big mistake, 5900 now on order) Both DVD players were connected identically to a Sharp 10K projector and we had identical DVDs to make A/B comparisons easier. The 2900 was obviously redder than the 5900. We double check color temps, etc. and didn't find anything that would account for the difference other than it the DVD player.

My point is, when we use our DVD players to come up with a master "color decoder" setting, it could very well not be right for our other devices.

Something else I'd like to throw in. When I've used AVIA filters, DVE filters, and then the expensive Kodak Tricolor filters, I found that adjusting the color decoded to eliminate red push and green pull(?) the picture still didn't look right. Reds were too weak. I wound up leaving green at the Axis 0 setting and some kind of compromise setting for Red. Just my opinion, I don't believe these LCDs behave like CRTs when it comes to color decoder adjustments. Something non linear about the way color saturates in the panels.

JimP,

The odds of having level errors are higher with less expensive players than more expensive. This is one of the reasons I am suggesting people leave AXIS at 0. I would tweak a different AXIS setting if you are going to tweak GYR, GYB, RYR or RYB. I believe you can then use AXIS 0 for inputs that do not generate test patterns.

Why are you switching to a 5900?

Originally posted by umr
JimP,

Why are you switching to a 5900?


In comparison, the 5900 was sharper, color more neutral, didn't exhibit what looked like red push (red objects in pictures with an extra glow). I now feel that this had something to do with the difficulty I was having with color decoder adjustments. May just be that I have a 2900 that's out of adjustment. The user controls on the 2900 doesn't provide for decreases in individual colors.

In terms of magnitude, only around 7 percent better. For most people, not worth the 1K difference in price.

Bass management for SACD on the 2900 isn't balanced without making preamp adjustments. This was later corrected on the 2200 and the 5900.

As much as I think spending 2K on a DVD player borders on the insane, I'd rather get the 5900 and not be thinking in the back of my mind about sharpness, red push and SACD bass management on the 2900.

I have used my Cinema Black for quit some time. I have very low light like they do at the T V stations when they monitor the signal. I found that my eyes did not get as tired as with it off. It helps the black level as well. I have been in hopes some member would check out some of the extra user modes in this section. Using D V E , or Avia, & using the black correction section. I found putting black correction on low was the best. Looks like gamma in the med looks good. How about white correction ?I know perfectionist in calibration don't like automatic modes, I don't but some of the inputs we put in the TV's now as we see in this post cant all be the same standard. All we can do is try to get them close to standard. But look thats why we have different mode settings for different inputs.

Originally posted by umr
... When the panels start to merge together looking through the filter is when the level is too high...

Do you mean when looking at the white panels pattern in THX Optimizer used for setting picture through the colour filters, they will merge together if too high?

UMR,

I think I may have the answer to my earlier problems abotu the discrepancy between 1080i being too bright in Pro mode and 480p being perfect.

My DVD player (Panasonic RP-62) is set to the blacker mode. If I set it to the lighter mode, then I can tweak using DVE and 1080i in Pro mode should look less grey and washed out.

What do you think?

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
Do you mean when looking at the white panels pattern in THX Optimizer used for setting picture through the colour filters, they will merge together if too high?

Yes.

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
UMR,

I think I may have the answer to my earlier problems abotu the discrepancy between 1080i being too bright in Pro mode and 480p being perfect.

My DVD player (Panasonic RP-62) is set to the blacker mode. If I set it to the lighter mode, then I can tweak using DVE and 1080i in Pro mode should look less grey and washed out.

What do you think?

Using a DVD to adjust a HD signal is not usually correct. 1080i and 720p should have 0 IRE blacks. The darker black output on the Panasonic player should be equivalent to 0 IRE blacks. The brighter mode should be equivalent to 7.5 IRE blacks.

Adjusting a HD input properly requires a test signal that meets these standards. Without that you must use broacast material to try and adjust the picture and brightness levels.

How can I obtain an HD test signal? Is there a device that can be used or does a station like PBS periodically broadcast these signals? Even if I was able to set up Pro mode through such a signal, it would then throw 480p off.

I'll turn my DVD player back to the blacker mode and recalibrate using THX Optimizer and DVE, but I just cannot use Pro mode for HD. Standard and even Vivid modes just look much clearer. The difference is pronounced.

If I turn UAPD in DCP-User in Pro mode up from 0 to 1, then Pro mode becomes much more watchable for HD, but of course I lose some detail in the blacks (luckily this is an input specific setting). However, I don't lose as much detail as with Vivid and Standard, as those have UAPD turned up much higher than that.

JoeFigueiredo,

I don't think you are following what I am suggesting you should do. You should study the first post carefully if you want to try and make some progress with Pro. You may just disagree with what I am suggesting which is OK as well. Without test HD test patterns it is very difficult to judge what settings are better than others.

I use a LG LST-3410A with a JVC 30K and a 720p version of DVE on D-VHS to generate a test signal for my TV. You could drop the LG STB if you have a GWIII XBR set. I used to use a Samsung T165, but it is significantly worse than the LG.

You could possibly catch a test pattern OTA on HD, but they are not common. CBS here frequently will display a SMPTE color pattern when they switch to the local news for a few seconds. You would have to record it for it to be very useful.

I'll re-read the first post, but I implemented your tweaks step-by-step, and they work great for DVD material and have made improvements to SD and HD material, except for the washed out look on HD stuff that Pro mode brings. It's like HD needs some sort of black enhancement in order to bring out the "wow" factor (for lack of a better or term), or maybe call it just plain crispness in the picture.

I don't have that equipment, but will look into it for properly testing HD.

What is a JVC 30K?