Washed out is either incorrect brightness or you prefer a higher gamma. Adjust UGAM if you want to see what gamma does.

A JVC 30K is a D-VHS recorder/player.

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
I'll re-read the first post, but I implemented your tweaks step-by-step, and they work great for DVD material and have made improvements to SD and HD material, except for the washed out look on HD stuff that Pro mode brings. It's like HD needs some sort of black enhancement in order to bring out the "wow" factor (for lack of a better or term), or maybe call it just plain crispness in the picture.

I don't have that equipment, but will look into it for properly testing HD.

What is a JVC 30K?
Joe,
Trying to catch a 1080i test pattern is going to be extremely difficult. If you have a DVR, record some HD programming & use that as a visual adjustment reference for your 1080i & 720p.
If you are feeling that your HD material is better looking in Vivid(god forbid) or even standard....I believe you may be doing something incorrectly. Then again,,like UMR said ....you may just disagree with his settings. When I first implemented UMR's tweaks I was no doubt under what has become to be known as the" Torch Effect" impression. And this is the way I believed programming should look.I'd never look back now though. This issue has been covered many times & I think if you stick to his exact settings & use you DVE to calibrate your sharpness you'll have the best HD PQ available to you.
Just give it some time & see how you feel about it in a week or two :p
Hope I was some help,
-Brian

JoeFigueiredo,

What equipment are you using with your GWIII?

Originally posted by umr
Washed out is either incorrect brightness or you prefer a higher gamma. Adjust UGAM if you want to see what gamma does.

A JVC 30K is a D-VHS recorder/player.

What I mean by washed out is that blacks in Pro become gray, however detail becomes noticeable. This gray in all black areas of a picture makes colours not pop out as much. The problem with adjusting brightness down for Pro mode in 1080i content, is that it becomes too dark for 480p content. Vice versa, if I set it right for 480p, then 1080i is "washed out". Going to Standard or Vivid provides a crisper, colourful image, but I lose details in the blacks. However, if I adjust UAPD up for 1080i content in Pro, then I get less of the washed out look, but I lose some details in the blacks.
Adjusting UAPD from 0 to 1 is the only input specific setting to achieve what I want, but I know that I'm adding black enhancement.
My UGAM is set at 0 for Pro, and if I move it up then the picture gets even more washed out.

Originally posted by umr
JoeFigueiredo,

What equipment are you using with your GWIII?

I'm using a Bell Expressvu 6000 receiver (same as what Dishnet uses), with Monster ultra component cables.
Panasonic RP-62 DVD player with Monster ultra component cables.
These are connected directly from the devices to the GWIII.

Joe, I would check my settings again in the MID 5 & DCP- USER. Start at factory original, Then do update tweaks that look thew best. If one changes black level to a gray you found it. You might have done # 3 but thought you was on # 4 for example. Don't feel bad this has happen to the best of us. Keep in mind in this User Menu we have thousands of setting that we could get off one number & then try to find it. Thats why we always say log original so we can always go back.Thanks, G. B.

Originally posted by G.B.
Joe, I would check my settings again in the MID 5 & DCP- USER. Start at factory original, Then do update tweaks that look thew best. If one changes black level to a gray you found it. You might have done # 3 but thought you was on # 4 for example. Don't feel bad this has happen to the best of us. Keep in mind in this User Menu we have thousands of setting that we could get off one number & then try to find it. Thats why we always say log original so we can always go back.Thanks, G. B.

I will do this, but I want to highlight the point that this only occurs in 1080i. The difference is not as pronounced in 480p, so the setting changes would be the probably the ones that are input specific, such as UGAM, UDCT, UAPD, etc. and these I didn't touch. I'll also look at MID5

What is MVLS in 1080i for component by default? And, is MVLS mode and/or input specific?

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
What I mean by washed out is that blacks in Pro become gray, however detail becomes noticeable. This gray in all black areas of a picture makes colours not pop out as much. The problem with adjusting brightness down for Pro mode in 1080i content, is that it becomes too dark for 480p content. Vice versa, if I set it right for 480p, then 1080i is "washed out". Going to Standard or Vivid provides a crisper, colourful image, but I lose details in the blacks. However, if I adjust UAPD up for 1080i content in Pro, then I get less of the washed out look, but I lose some details in the blacks.
Adjusting UAPD from 0 to 1 is the only input specific setting to achieve what I want, but I know that I'm adding black enhancement.
My UGAM is set at 0 for Pro, and if I move it up then the picture gets even more washed out.

You need to visit UBOF for each input/resolution. This will resolve the differences in brightness per device.

UGAM cannot be adjusted alone. You must recalibrate picture and brightness. You may also which to use UPOF and UBOF for this as well.

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
I will do this, but I want to highlight the point that this only occurs in 1080i. The difference is not as pronounced in 480p, so the setting changes would be the probably the ones that are input specific, such as UGAM, UDCT, UAPD, etc. and these I didn't touch. I'll also look at MID5

What is MVLS in 1080i for component by default? And, is MVLS mode and/or input specific?

MVLS was 0 by default for 1080i component on the sets I looked at. It is mode and resolution specific.

Originally posted by umr
You need to visit UBOF for each input/resolution. This will resolve the differences in brightness per device.

UGAM cannot be adjusted alone. You must recalibrate picture and brightness. You may also which to use UPOF and UBOF for this as well.

UGAM for Pro is at 0 for 1080i and I haven't changed it (like I said, as I adjust it up it gets worse).

With UBOF, I have to lower significantly (to below 10) to get rid of the grey. Does that sound right? I believe the default setting is 35.

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
I'm using a Bell Expressvu 6000 receiver (same as what Dishnet uses), with Monster ultra component cables.
Panasonic RP-62 DVD player with Monster ultra component cables.
These are connected directly from the devices to the GWIII.

I can't comment on the 6000 receiver.

My Panasonic DVD player was way off of SMPTE standards with color. You might have great difficulty using the RP-62 to calibrate the other inputs. I would suggest a higher quality player would be more appropriate. Something like a Denon DVD-5900 would give better results. Use AXIS 0 for the other inputs and AXIS 1 for the DVD player if you are going to stick with the Panasonic.

UMR

I just heard that there is some kind of color test pattern on Cinemax HD West that comes on at 5:30 eastern.

Sounds like a high def color signal.

Have you heard anything about it?

Originally posted by JimP
UMR

I just heard that there is some kind of color test pattern on Cinemax HD West that comes on at 5:30 eastern.

Sounds like a high def color signal.

Have you heard anything about it?

No, but I only get HD OTA and with D-Theater. I am waiting for the HD cable/satellite/OTA DVR to stabilize.

It would be nice if true.

Originally posted by umr
I can't comment on the 6000 receiver.

My Panasonic DVD player was way off of SMPTE standards with color. You might have great difficulty using the RP-62 to calibrate the other inputs. I would suggest a higher quality player would be more appropriate. Something like a Denon DVD-5900 would give better results. Use AXIS 0 for the other inputs and AXIS 1 for the DVD player if you are going to stick with the Panasonic.

Yeah, unfortunately I can't justify spending $3000 CDN on a DVD player just to achieve a better picture. Maybe when I win the lottery.
I'll try the AXIS 1 for the player. Would this boost overall colour on it?

Joe,

What's the skiing like in Ontario??

I know someone who loves to ski and should have a 5900 in his grubby little hands in a few weeks. hint hint

Joe wrote:
" I'll try the AXIS 1 for the player. Would this boost overall colour on it?"

It depends on what your are comparing it too. The non xbr GWIII has four options for your color decoder. 0,1,2,3. Most of the inputs and resolution levels have 3 as their default. 0 comes closer to having your color levels even. If you've got Avia, go to the color decoder test and while viewing through the red filter, change the color decoder setting from 3 to the other settings. You should see the red bar change as you try different axis settings.

I read somewhere that the reason manufacturers have so much red push is that they're running their sets as high as 11,000 Kelvin to help them look brighter. The human eye perceives blue to be brighter than neutral white. So to make fleshtones look closer to normal (less blue) they had to punch up reds in the color decoder. I'm sure they're probably a dozen theories floating around to explain why manufacturers set these TVs with so much red push. I think we should all be grateful that Sony design this set where you can make these adjustments fairly easy. I've read on one of the other forums that this year's Mitsubishi's don't have decoder adjustments even within the service menu. That's tough.

Skiing is awesome. Lots of resorts about 1-2 hrs away from Toronto area. New York, however has the best skiing around here.

Originally posted by JimP
Joe,

What's the skiing like in Ontario??

I know someone who loves to ski and should have a 5900 in his grubby little hands in a few weeks. hint hint

Joe wrote:
" I'll try the AXIS 1 for the player. Would this boost overall colour on it?"

It depends on what your are comparing it too. The non xbr GWIII has four options for your color decoder. 0,1,2,3. Most of the inputs and resolution levels have 3 as their default. 0 comes closer to having your color levels even. If you've got Avia, go to the color decoder test and while viewing through the red filter, change the color decoder setting from 3 to the other settings. You should see the red bar change as you try different axis settings.

I read somewhere that the reason manufacturers have so much red push is that they're running their sets as high as 11,000 Kelvin to help them look brighter. The human eye perceives blue to be brighter than neutral white. So to make fleshtones look closer to normal (less blue) they had to punch up reds in the color decoder. I'm sure they're probably a dozen theories floating around to explain why manufacturers set these TVs with so much red push. I think we should all be grateful that Sony design this set where you can make these adjustments fairly easy. I've read on one of the other forums that this year's Mitsubishi's don't have decoder adjustments even within the service menu. That's tough.

So theoretically if I adjust my DVD player to AXIS 1, and leave my HD at AXIS 0, I should adjust UCOF down slightly on HD from what it is set at for the DVD player (due to the added colour enhancement).
Also, adjusting AXIS to 1 from 0 may eliminate the discrepancy I'm seeing between the two shades of red while looking through the red filter at the DVE colour pattern (after UMR's notes, I think this discrepancy is due to the fact I own a $200 player). The discrepancy is that the magenta block is darker than the red block.

Originally posted by umr
I can't comment on the 6000 receiver.

My Panasonic DVD player was way off of SMPTE standards with color. You might have great difficulty using the RP-62 to calibrate the other inputs. I would suggest a higher quality player would be more appropriate. Something like a Denon DVD-5900 would give better results. Use AXIS 0 for the other inputs and AXIS 1 for the DVD player if you are going to stick with the Panasonic.

I tried AXIS 1 and that makes the discrepancy using the red filter between the magenta and red blocks even greater. AXIS at 2 makes it the most even, so I should probably use that, correct?

I'm not sure if I should comment here or not about this but assuming the Test Pattern is public domain, you can very easily (using HTPC) of course over DVI, get a test pattern. I have LOADS of recorded HD content including LOTR 1, 2, Terminator 2 in 1080P, The Fifth Element in 720P, there is lots of HD material you can use to play with but also, the Nokia Monitor test will help you TONNES with greyscale if you don't have the equipment that UMR so expertly uses to tweak his sets. If you don't want to buy a DVHS, grab a cheap PC with a DVI video card and tweak your settings from there. You can use the PC to output 1080i, 720P, 1080P, and so on and so forth. You can then use the component adapter on the Radeon to tune your component hidef input. This is assuming of course you calibrate your PC's colors first which isn't very difficult. Just use something as a baseline like a DVD you know was well mastered. I use 5th Element in 720P to tune my own system. To be honest though, in the end, I didn't change much of anything UMR did, I played with some settings he didn't though which disable some high level filtering on the DVI input.

Josh.

MadChemist

I don't know if this is even a problem, so please take it as information that should be researched further. I've heard that the color decoder setting for high definition is different than the one for NTSC. Just because a signal is 1080i, does it also mean that it's carrying the HD color decoding. So when a DVD player takes a standard DVD (not a HD DVD) and upscales it to 1080i, does it carry the color decoder for NTSC or HD?? To carry this to the HTPC you mentioned, would it be NTSC or HD?? Logic would suggest that the only 1080I material that should be used for color decoding test would have to be mastered in 1080I along with the proper decoder for HD.
Clear as mud??

Joe
Read up on tint adjustments. There is one for each primary color. The blue one is in the user menu, the ones for green and red are in the service menu under the axis settings. When the two blocks mentioned don't match in brightness, I believe it has something to do with adjusting the RYB(tint adjustment for red to make it bluer or greener) setting.

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
I tried AXIS 1 and that makes the discrepancy using the red filter between the magenta and red blocks even greater. AXIS at 2 makes it the most even, so I should probably use that, correct?

You can use anything, but AXIS 0. What you should do is adjust RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB on AXIS 1,2 or 3 for the Panny player. This will retain AXIS 0 for other devices that are more accurate.

Jim, you can set the color matrix to output in the HD format using Powerstrip and FFDShow. When I write a custom driver for the Grand Wega III, there is a section in there that allows you to tell what color format you want to send to the device. There is a noticeable difference between RGB, HD, NTSC, and the other options available.

MadChemst

Good deal. May try that myself. Could you tell much difference in red push going from NTSC to HD on the DVI output???

Originally posted by umr
You can use anything, but AXIS 0. What you should do is adjust RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB on AXIS 1,2 or 3 for the Panny player. This will retain AXIS 0 for other devices that are more accurate.

Sounds like good advice, however I'll be setting Pro mode's colour for the DVD player AXIS. Won't this throw off colours for HD since I'll be using Pro for that? Or should I then adjust UCOF for HD to offset the difference AXIS makes in colour for DVD from HD?

Also, why do you recommend anything other than AXIS at 0. The reason I ask is that after looking at the difference through the red filter again, AXIS at 0 actually is the one that looks the most even.

To solve the gray problem I was having with Pro mode in HD I had to lower UBOF to 8 for Pro mode in HD. This lost me some gray scale, but it makes Pro mode much better and eliminates the "grey veil" and "washed out colour". I could then remove the UAPD at 1 setting I had temporarily.

Does anyone have any comments about keeping UBOF for HD at 8. The reason I ask is that it is a fairly significant change, as it was previously set at 35.

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
Sounds like good advice, however I'll be setting Pro mode's colour for the DVD player AXIS. Won't this throw off colours for HD since I'll be using Pro for that? Or should I then adjust UCOF for HD to offset the difference AXIS makes in colour for DVD from HD?

Also, why do you recommend anything other than AXIS at 0. The reason I ask is that after looking at the difference through the red filter again, AXIS at 0 actually is the one that looks the most even.

Each AXIS is a memory location for the color decoder settings (RYR...). I agree AXIS 0 is correct. If you need to tweak the decoder beyond going to AXIS 0 it is better to tweak a different AXIS memory location and retain AXIS 0 at its untweaked accurate values.

You will not throw off other inputs if you can use AXIS 0 for them.

You may want to ignore all of this complexity if it does not make sense to you. I seem to be struggling trying to communicate how to do this.

UMR,

No, I think you are doing a good job communicating this stuff to me anyways. And hopefully it helps other people out too.

So basically if AXIS at 0 on DVD looks the best for the red filter colour pattern thing on DVE, you would recommend leaving it at 0 then and not changing to anything but 0 as previously recommended due to my low-budget player?

I understand about AXIS as the memory setting now, and how if I change it to anything but 0 and can adjust RYB, etc. for that input and it won't affect others as long as I don't use that AXIS.

Jim,

Switch the color matrix to HD when writing the driver in PS, the red push disappears completely. In fact, with UMR's axis settings, my red push disappeared from everywhere. However, you will notice other colour inaccuracies with HTPC DVD/720P/1080P content if you don't switch it to whatever the source is supposed to be. To be honest, I'm lazy and have left it on HD since all my content looks REALLY good that way. I have watched Fifth Element via my DVD Player which is a Philips Q50 and the colours VERY close if I pause at the same scene and switch imputs back and forth between the 720P movie on my HD, and my Q50 with the DCDi.

Sorry if that was longwinded but it's been a longwinded day.

Josh.

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
...So basically if AXIS at 0 on DVD looks the best for the red filter colour pattern thing on DVE, you would recommend leaving it at 0 then and not changing to anything but 0 as previously recommended due to my low-budget player?

I understand about AXIS as the memory setting now, and how if I change it to anything but 0 and can adjust RYB, etc. for that input and it won't affect others as long as I don't use that AXIS.

Yes. You have got it. I described AXIS 0 tweak in the first post because people are more likely to make a mess than improve the color accuracy of their set by tweaking the color decoder directly. Many people will not have accurate color filters to properly tweak blue, green and red either.

It would impact the other input if it shares the same resolution and type. Like two 480p component inputs share the same AXIS setting.

So with the colour pattern in DVE and using the filters, when I calibrate blue correctly so that the correct blocks match the background colour, is are the red and green blocks supposed to also match the background colour when looking through those filters, or are the blocks only supposed to match each other.

I can get the red to match the background colour and each other by adjusting the colour decoder, however I can't seem to get green to match the background colour, as the background colour is almost a kind of bright green (white viewed through the green filter), and the two blocks are darker even if I push GYB and GYR way up to 150 or more. In green it never matches the background colour, only each other.

With red, by adjusting RYR and RYB, and can get the blocks to match as I move them down before getting the two blocks to match the back ground colour.

In summary, are the blocks supposed to match the background colours or just each other?

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
So with the colour pattern in DVE and using the filters, when I calibrate blue correctly so that the correct blocks match the background colour, is are the red and green blocks supposed to also match the background colour when looking through those filters, or are the blocks only supposed to match each other.

I can get the red to match the background colour and each other by adjusting the colour decoder, however I can't seem to get green to match the background colour, as the background colour is almost a kind of bright green (white viewed through the green filter), and the two blocks are darker even if I push GYB and GYR way up to 150 or more. In green it never matches the background colour, only each other.

With red, by adjusting RYR and RYB, and can get the blocks to match as I move them down before getting the two blocks to match the back ground colour.

In summary, are the blocks supposed to match the background colours or just each other?

The blocks should all blend together when you look through the filters using the DVE pattern. The green filter supplied with DVE leaks too much to do an accurate adjustment of green. I would set the green (GYR,GYB) to match the settings in AXIS 0. You can get a wratten #99 filter that will do the job if you want. Some people have also tried lowering the drives and cuts for the blue that is leaking. This can allow you to use the poor quality filter supplied with DVE.

With a green filter leaking blue cyan should match the background and green and yellow should match each other. Green and yellow should also be darker than cyan and white.

Sticking with AXIS 0 is so much easier. ;)

UMR,
Thanks very much for all the info. I'm finally at a point where I can be content that I've tweaked my SM and UM to the best it's going to look using my current devices.

The only things I really changed from your originally suggested settings was:
UBOF = 8 for 1080i
AXIS = 1 for 480p (with RYB at 0 and RYR at 50)

Now I can sit back and enjoy!

Originally posted by Joe Figueiredo
UMR,
Thanks very much for all the info. I'm finally at a point where I can be content that I've tweaked my SM and UM to the best it's going to look using my current devices.

The only things I really changed from your originally suggested settings was:
UBOF = 8 for 1080i
AXIS = 1 for 480p (with RYB at 0 and RYR at 50)

Now I can sit back and enjoy!

You're welcome.:)

You should be prepared for the next upgrade bug when it hits.

Can anyone point me in the right direction, or forum as to how to correct (if there is a way) green tint on about 60% of my screen when it is black with no input or during dark scenes? This is more noticeable at night during dark scenes and when there is just white text on the screen i.e. movie credits. I am about to call Sears service and would appreciate any info I could give them. It is becoming quite annoying and I have no prior service menu experience.

Originally posted by rotty2
Can anyone point me in the right direction, or forum as to how to correct (if there is a way) green tint on about 60% of my screen when it is black with no input or during dark scenes? This is more noticeable at night during dark scenes and when there is just white text on the screen i.e. movie credits. I am about to call Sears service and would appreciate any info I could give them. It is becoming quite annoying and I have no prior service menu experience.

I have not seen a service menu adjustment for this on the GWIII's. Either the light engine has to be replaced or the polarizers realigned.

Thanks UMR, I appreciate the reply

I just recently traded in my 50WE for a 60WE. I took your recommendation and bought the Avia DVD. I just sat down to go through your tweaks and was wondering a couple things. I have the Samsung 931 and I have both a DVI and Component cables. In your instructions you say to begin by setting up via Component cables at native resolution (420i). Correct? So should I just do the tweaks via the Component cables and also in regular Cable modes? Or should I at some point in addition unhook the Component cables and run the DVI cable and tweak the Video 7 settings? Also, I noticed that when I was running the Component cables I was unable to access 720p or 1080i settings, yet when I was running the DVI, I was. Am I doing something wrong, and if so, what?

Originally posted by umr
I have not seen a service menu adjustment for this on the GWIII's. Either the light engine has to be replaced or the polarizers realigned.
The 3D gamma service menu items that I know of are in the D9671-1 group - 3DGSW, 3DGOFFSET, 3DGNONL, and 3DGWEGT. Unfortunately they're very coarse settings (values only range from something like 0 to 3 on each of them) and further they did nothing for unevenness in dark scenes on my set. People with unevenness in light scenes may want to play with them though because they definitely had an effect there. If it wasn't for the whole void-the-warranty thing, I'd be perfectly willing to try out playing with the polarizers in my set. :p As it stands now, I have a very long-standing request to get a replacement set from CC (I convinced them to get me a replacement 60XBR950 back in December and I'm still waiting :eek: ).

Originally posted by kyteag
I just recently traded in my 50WE for a 60WE. I took your recommendation and bought the Avia DVD. I just sat down to go through your tweaks and was wondering a couple things. I have the Samsung 931 and I have both a DVI and Component cables. In your instructions you say to begin by setting up via Component cables at native resolution (420i). Correct? So should I just do the tweaks via the Component cables and also in regular Cable modes? Or should I at some point in addition unhook the Component cables and run the DVI cable and tweak the Video 7 settings? Also, I noticed that when I was running the Component cables I was unable to access 720p or 1080i settings, yet when I was running the DVI, I was. Am I doing something wrong, and if so, what?

You need to study the first post more carefully. I recommend tweaking all resolutions. I do not recommend DVI for DVD playback. I recommend 480p for DVD playback if you have a quality player.

I cannot comment on the operational aspects on the Samsung DVD player. It is generally considered to be a very poor player on these sets because it uses computer levels instead of video levels. I would get something different.

I know you say to make the tweaks to all imputs/resolutions. Also, I know you recommend using Component cables and running the DVD player at native resolution of 420p. So when I apply your tweaks, being in that I am currently only using one imput (for instance Video 6), once I complete all resolutions, should I unhook my DVD player and re-hook it to another imput (for instance Video 1-5, 7) and apply the tweaks there as well? Or since I am currently using only cable and 1 imput should the imput/resolution specific tweaks only be applied to the imputs in use?

Originally posted by kyteag
... Or since I am currently using only cable and 1 imput should the imput/resolution specific tweaks only be applied to the imputs in use?

That is up to you. I would not bother until I had another input I was going to use.

Googer,

I do have unevenness in light scenes however it's very specific to one area of the screen. I'm very comfortable going into the SM but curious as to how you determined the D9671-1 group - 3DGSW, 3DGOFFSET, 3DGNONL, and 3DGWEGT may be ideal to fix or tame this? Also, any suggested values to try?

Thanks

Originally posted by jav1
Googer,

I do have unevenness in light scenes however it's very specific to one area of the screen. I'm very comfortable going into the SM but curious as to how you determined the D9671-1 group - 3DGSW, 3DGOFFSET, 3DGNONL, and 3DGWEGT may be ideal to fix or tame this? Also, any suggested values to try?

Thanks

3DG stands for 3D Gamma which is the circuitry Sony uses to compensate for uneven LCD light transmission. The GWII has similar circuitry. You will probably just need to experiment and see if anything helps. The GWII only allows gross shifting of red and blue between about 1/4 vertical sections of the screen.

ok so I gave it a try, and I cant seem to get mute enter to save the data. Im not seeing the write pop up, and the values are not remaining when I toggle back through the inputs. Any suggestions? I have a kf60we610 and the remote has a mute button, but there is no button specifically labeled enter. Im assuming its the center button in the middle of the cursor keys?

Any help will be much appreciated!

You know, I swear I read this damn remote back and forth a million times looking for that stupid button. And I have NO idea how I missed that. I feel like a complete and total idiot. But I guess thats half the fun.

Thanks...

We are so in love with the TV and you know love is blind:)

UMR,

Thanks for the excellent explanation on 3DG.

umr

Do you recommend going DVI with a Sony SAT HD300 thru the GWIII??

Originally posted by Infliktor
umr

Do you recommend going DVI with a Sony SAT HD300 thru the GWIII??

I would.

umr.

Thanks for all the setup info. I have made your recommended changes and love the picture now. I have the 60" we610.

Then with the LG3510 would you recommend using component at 460P for DVD and DVI set to 1080i for HDTV? I can leave the analog audio connected to the DVI audio inputs on the TV as most of my TV watching is with internal speakers and I use the Onkyo receiver optical interface for DVD sound. This means switching outputs and resolutions everytime time we switch from DVD to TV put I will put up with that if it has to be.

thanks for all of your work.

Originally posted by tcxoman
umr.

Thanks for all the setup info. I have made your recommended changes and love the picture now. I have the 60" we610.

Then with the LG3510 would you recommend using component at 460P for DVD and DVI set to 1080i for HDTV? I can leave the analog audio connected to the DVI audio inputs on the TV as most of my TV watching is with internal speakers and I use the Onkyo receiver optical interface for DVD sound. This means switching outputs and resolutions everytime time we switch from DVD to TV put I will put up with that if it has to be.

thanks for all of your work.

That would drive me nuts unless you have a macro configured in your remote. You can do it with a Philips Pronto using the discrete codes for the LG STB. It is one of the nice features of the LG this STB. I own the 3510 and 3410A.

I would probably use 1080i over DVI as a compromise if you don't have the macro capability or get a Philips Pronto.

umr, First I want to say thanks for all of your input you donate here. If you ever come to New Orleans Ill buy you dinner!!

Sitting in my living room still in its box is my GWIII 50WE, a Denon DVD2200, and the Sony SAT HD300. I am installing it this Saturday

I asked previously about the hook up of my Sony SATHD300 via DVI or component. You said you would hook it up via DVI.

Would you please explain the pro's and cons of hooking up via DVI or component for the SATHD300.

The only thing I thought I had picked up on that concerned me about hooking up via DVI was that I might lose control of stretch modes. I heard everything got stretched automatically even 4:3 programming but I may have misunderstood. I would appreciate if you could help educate me here.

Thanks umr

Do you come to New Orleans to calibrate at all?

Originally posted by Infliktor
umr, First I want to say thanks for all of your input you donate here. If you ever come to New Orleans Ill buy you dinner!!

Sitting in my living room still in its box is my GWIII 50WE, a Denon DVD2200, and the Sony SAT HD300. I am installing it this Saturday

I asked previously about the hook up of my Sony SATHD300 via DVI or component. You said you would hook it up via DVI.

Would you please explain the pro's and cons of hooking up via DVI or component for the SATHD300.

The only thing I thought I had picked up on that concerned me about hooking up via DVI was that I might lose control of stretch modes. I heard everything got stretched automatically even 4:3 programming but I may have misunderstood. I would appreciate if you could help educate me here.

Thanks umr

Do you come to New Orleans to calibrate at all?

I have only been to New Orleans once where I stayed overnight. The odds of me returning soon are not good.

The pluses for using DVI are:
Your STB will not down resolution the signal if they are told to protect the HD content of a broadcast
It has the potential to be slightly or significantly better than component for HD depending on the PQ of your STB's analog outputs. (I believe your STB though is very good)

The minuses are:
DVI does not have error correction and has shorter length limits than component. It tends to have a few more problems than component when it comes to signal transmission, but it can be very good if everything is within specifications.
Stretch mode functionality will depend on your STB if you output 720p or 1080i for SD.

You can get around the strech mode problem by using the composite output for SD. You may also find this is the best PQ. Many people do.

It really depends on what you like in the end. The decision is more gray than black and white. I could live with component on my STB, but I would rather have a little better PQ and keep a component input free. I don't like stretching SD content so it is not an issue for me. My STB also has some pretty good stretch modes that work fine when I need them. I believe your STB has the same stretch modes as mine. You should be happy with it if yours scales as well as mine does.

umr Thanks for the quick reply.

"DVI does not have error correction and has shorter length limits than component. It tends to have a few more problems than component when it comes to signal transmission, but it can be very good if everything is within specifications".

What do you mean by "error correction"

I am assuming that the length limits you refer to are the length of the DVI cable?

I"t tends to have a few more problems than component when it comes to signal transmission, but it can be very good if everything is within specifications".

Would you please explain this a little further?

Thank's

Originally posted by Infliktor
umr Thanks for the quick reply.

"DVI does not have error correction and has shorter length limits than component. It tends to have a few more problems than component when it comes to signal transmission, but it can be very good if everything is within specifications".

What do you mean by "error correction"

I am assuming that the length limits you refer to are the length of the DVI cable?

I"t tends to have a few more problems than component when it comes to signal transmission, but it can be very good if everything is within specifications".

Would you please explain this a little further?

Thank's

Let's say you loose some bits on the way. Typically a digital connection will have some method to either correct that loss or force a retransmission of the information. DVI does none of these. The data rate is apparently too high and the consequences of loosing video data is so low it is not done. What you tend to get is random noise on the picture if the connection is not perfect. Because of this DVI will degrade until it does not work at all. People tend to assume that because it is DVI it will have a very low or zero error rate like Ethernet. That is not true if the signal timing and voltages are not within very tight tolerances. There have been some great posts on the AVS Forum showing how poor cables and cable length degrade the PQ.

The cable length limits for DVI are something like 15 feet without a repeater of some type. You can easily go 100 ft with excellent video cable on component.

Is this thread being updated on the first page at all for new tweaks or findings ?

Overall I have grown to love this set ... even the soft image with a few more tweaks of my own in the user menu . Just curious if any new SM changes have been found.

Originally posted by Petre
Is this thread being updated on the first page at all for new tweaks or findings ?

Overall I have grown to love this set ... even the soft image with a few more tweaks of my own in the user menu . Just curious if any new SM changes have been found.

The updates are listed at the end of the first post. No new ones have been posted for a while. I do not own a GWIII so I don't have the ability to experiment beyond what I have done at this point.

Thanks UMR for all the help in making this clear for me. Much Appreciated.

I will be connecting via DVI!!!

Ok I need some help

This morning as I installed my new tv, just to see if everything worked I hooked up my 50WE610 GWIII via component cables to my Sony SATHD300 satellete/ota receiver and standard audio cables.

All was well, so hooked up my VCR, new DVD player and changed the satellite connection to DVI. My home theatre system will be hooked up as soon as I sort through what I have.

I also wanted to change to the DVI connection per umr's advice.

When you do this there is a standard right and left audio to go along with the DVI connecection (Video7).

Using the same set of cables, i connected from the first audio outs on the SATHD300 which is where I had them to begin with and plugged these into the audio connections for Video 7 on the TV.

When I change the input to Video 7 I get a great picture but no sound. Am I missing something.?

Any advice?

Originally posted by Infliktor
....When I change the input to Video 7 I get a great picture but no sound. Am I missing something.?

Any advice?

Mute Off

Speaker Option On

Bad Cable

Connection Error

Bad Audio Input On TV

Satellite Box Bad Or Muting Output

Just wanted to post to thank umr for the tweaks I used on my new GWIII. The difference was immediate and incredible. It's like Sony ships these TV in Extreme Blur Mode and you removed it! I'm a long-time tweaker but with Sony's service menu -- one of the most complex and least friendly I've used -- I never would have been able to find these fantastic tweaks without instructions. :)

With tweaks applied, I believe this set has the best scaler of any video device I've owned. It even manages to make my TiVo output (480i, S-Video) look good!

I had some odd issues with quitting the service menu that I thought I should mention. When powering off/on, the input which I had selected lost its tweaked settings (became blurry again)! When I re-entered the service menu, the picture again became sharp. After this happened several times, I solved the problem by switching to the unused ANT input before exiting the service menu. Now all tweaks appear to be intact on all inputs. Weird.

On an unrelated note, I'm thinking about trying a neutral density filter on my set to improve black level. I noticed people talking about it briefly in earlier posts, but has anyone actually tried it?

Thanks again!!
Justin

umr, is the "speaker option" on....... a setting for each input i.e. Video1,2,3 etc or ist it universal?

Also "Your STB will not down resolution the signal if they are told to protect the HD content of a broadcast"

Is this happening now or is it something that is coming soon?

Originally posted by justinstreufert
...On an unrelated note, I'm thinking about trying a neutral density filter on my set to improve black level. I noticed people talking about it briefly in earlier posts, but has anyone actually tried it?

Thanks again!!
Justin

I believe Chuck Williams has tinkered with this. He is an ISF tech on the east coast.

Originally posted by Infliktor
umr, is the "speaker option" on....... a setting for each input i.e. Video1,2,3 etc or ist it universal?

Also "Your STB will not down resolution the signal if they are told to protect the HD content of a broadcast"

Is this happening now or is it something that is coming soon?

I believe the speaker option is universal, but it does not harm to check it out.

I don't know when the copy protection flags will begin being used. It is generally believed it will be limited to pay channels like HBO. No one really knows though until it happens. Many Hollywood studios are worried about loosing nearly master copies of their movies through piracy over the Internet.

Last week, Voom satellite downloaded new software that now causes the receiver through DVI to look for the handshake with the GWIII. It didn't use to do that. If you turn the receiver on before turning the TV on, you get some kind of error message about your tv not being HDCP compatable which by the way has some non HDCP compliant TV owner furious.

I suspect this may be one of the first implementations of the HDCP flag.

I also had heard that Voom had started setting the protection flag. It was only a matter of time. I'm glad I've held off on HDTV until these connections were in place.

I believe failing a hand shake with DVI has happened before. What I was talking about was a device not outputting 480p on component while outputting 1080i and 720p on DVI for an HD source. This has happened in some cases for DVD playback, but not HD that I have heard of. This is why I waited for a DVI with HDCP before I bought a HDTV.

I added a step to the procedure at the end recommending XBR owners explore using the Cinema Black option in the User Menu.

Ok I fixed my sound problems thru DVI. Later I will connect my Home theater system.

The two things I am a bit confused are now is the stretch modes for bot the TV and the Sony HD300.

Also thru DVI will the format (480i,480p,720p,1081i), be automatically selected on the SATHD300 for the optimum or do I need to select it

Originally posted by Infliktor
Ok I fixed my sound problems thru DVI. Later I will connect my Home theater system.

The two things I am a bit confused are now is the stretch modes for bot the TV and the Sony HD300.

Also thru DVI will the format (480i,480p,720p,1081i), be automatically selected on the SATHD300 for the optimum or do I need to select it

Read the first post in this thread.

UMR , I found using CINEMA BLACK was easier on the eyes after an evening with it on. I tried it after about 3 weeks of watching my set. For people that don't think the L. C. D. is pure enough or blacker than black I think it helps as well. If they lower the watts some It might give more hours on the bulb, but don't know how they do It.

Is there a equivalent setting to Cinema Black on the GWIII??

Originally posted by umr
I believe failing a hand shake with DVI has happened before. What I was talking about was a device not outputting 480p on component while outputting 1080i and 720p on DVI for an HD source. This has happened in some cases for DVD playback, but not HD that I have heard of. This is why I waited for a DVI with HDCP before I bought a HDTV.

UMR,

Is this to say that the DVI on the GWII is HDCP compliant? (Sorry for posting on the wrong thread)

niesman

Originally posted by niesman
UMR,

Is this to say that the DVI on the GWII is HDCP compliant? (Sorry for posting on the wrong thread)

niesman

Yes. It is.

Originally posted by JimP
Is there a equivalent setting to Cinema Black on the GWIII??

Cinema Black is only available on the Grand Wega XBR950 series.

Originally posted by umr
Cinema Black is only available on the Grand Wega XBR950 series. Bummer ... they don't make an XBR that fits my space.

I just wanted to post a note of thanks to UMR for taking the time to post all of these tweaks, and help us all through them. Im glad I let you convince me to do them! The whole process was not that difficult, and Im very happy with the end result. Thanks for helping me make a great TV even better. Now is there anything you can do to make my cable company release more channels in HD? :)

Originally posted by bigtv:)
I just wanted to post a note of thanks to UMR for taking the time to post all of these tweaks, and help us all through them. Im glad I let you convince me to do them! The whole process was not that difficult, and Im very happy with the end result. Thanks for helping me make a great TV even better. Now is there anything you can do to make my cable company release more channels in HD? :)

No problem.

I can fix your HD problem. Everyone send me all the money they have and I'll buy them out or install satellite at your house.:D

Originally posted by bigtv:)
... Now is there anything you can do to make my cable company release more channels in HD? :) Do you have a roof antenna? There are many ways to get DTV other than the cable company.

Originally posted by xortam
Do you have a roof antenna? There are many ways to get DTV other than the cable company.

Yep, I realize there are lots of other options. Problem is I cant put up an antenna or a dish here. I plan on trying an indoor antenna and a receiver to see if its worth investing in one. But thats not what this thread is about. So time to get back to tweaking :)

UMR,

Thank you for your time on this.
I was going to print this thread out and read the whole thing until I realized it was 280 pages!:D
So, I am wondering if there is anything else I need to know that is not already posted in your orignally post before attempting to tweak my GWIII?

Originally posted by Sebastian1
UMR,

...So, I am wondering if there is anything else I need to know that is not already posted in your orignally post before attempting to tweak my GWIII?

No. I try and keep that post updated with the information I believe you would need.

I finished your tweaks and the tv looks great. One issue I am having is that when I am in the THX Optimizer section regarding Geometery and Convergence for 16:9 I have a good looking circle, but the boxes around it are not right. By not right I mean that the outer-most box is shifted so the that the left edge of the box is slightly off the screen. Here is a picture of both the left and right sides of the boxes. What can I do to fix this and if I indeed fix it is there any negative repercussions (ie. loss of resolutin, etc.)?

I finished your tweaks and the TV looks great. One issue I am having is that when I am in the THX Optimizer section regarding Geometry and Convergence for 16:9 I have a good looking circle, but the boxes around it are not right. By not right I mean that the outer-most box is shifted so the that the left edge of the box is slightly off the screen. Here is a picture of both the left side and right sides of the boxes. What can I do to fix this and if I indeed fix it is there any negative repercussions (ie. loss of resolution, etc.)?

This post has the left side of the box.
The next post will have the right side of the box.

Here is the 2nd picture.

Geometry can get complex, but if you want to venture into this area. The MID1 adjustment listed in the first post of this thread will correct for this. The TV will loose sync if you go too far with this. The caveats are:

- MID1 will effect all inputs.

- It is possible that your DVD player is clipping pixels causing the geometry problem for that input alone.

- Other MID* category adjustments exist for individual input types, but you do not have enough information to know which to adjust.

These are few of the reasons I don't include this stuff in the procedure itself.

UMR hae you found any problesm with the GWIII and overscanning? I have a 42" and it seems to cut off a little bit of the picture i have noticed, don't like to squeeze it too much in screen options as it causes the "fat face". Where would you adjust the overscan in the service menu, it needs to come down from the top about 1/4 of an inch on some channels, but like on espn same setting would cut off the ticker. Do you have some recommended settings for the vertical size and/or center; I like to watch the 4:3 channel's on wide zoom with center on +7 and size on -1.

Originally posted by brewc
UMR hae you found any problesm with the GWIII and overscanning? I have a 42" and it seems to cut off a little bit of the picture i have noticed, don't like to squeeze it too much in screen options as it causes the "fat face". Where would you adjust the overscan in the service menu, it needs to come down from the top about 1/4 of an inch on some channels, but like on espn same setting would cut off the ticker. Do you have some recommended settings for the vertical size and/or center; I like to watch the 4:3 channel's on wide zoom with center on +7 and size on -1.

Check out these links for more info on geometry. Almost all sets can benefit, but the risk is higher than with the other tweaks. Be careful about other information in the spreadsheet it may not all be accurate.

http://www2.handheldgames.com/gwIII.xls

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=362324&perpage=20&highlight=mid4&pagenumber=1

Folks,

Well I just finished performing the tweaks. Looks pretty good. I'm only really dissapointed with the Laserdisc performace. I really struggled with the UPIC, UBRT, USHP settings though. I was having a terrible time telling any difference with the test patterns. I was wondering if there was anyone in the central Ohio area that has set one of these up spot on, that could render a second opinion. I have an XBR if it makes any difference.

Please email me.

Thanks,
Eric
ers@ersserv.tzo.com

Originally posted by esterbenz
Folks,

Well I just finished performing the tweaks. Looks pretty good. I'm only really dissapointed with the Laserdisc performace. I really struggled with the UPIC, UBRT, USHP settings though. I was having a terrible time telling any difference with the test patterns. I was wondering if there was anyone in the central Ohio area that has set one of these up spot on, that could render a second opinion. I have an XBR if it makes any difference.

Please email me.

Thanks,
Eric
ers@ersserv.tzo.com

You may need to use UBOF and UPOF to tweak the levels for your LD player.

umr, when the 1080 ouput DVD players get to be commonplace will companies like DVE and Avia create tuneup DVD disks that can be used to set up/tweak the DVI port?

Originally posted by Infliktor
umr, when the 1080 ouput DVD players get to be commonplace will companies like DVE and Avia create tuneup DVD disks that can be used to set up/tweak the DVI port?

DVI calibration for HD with a 1080i DVD player is more dependent on the player than the software. If the player conforms to HD standards you should be able to use it to calibrate picture, brightness, color, hue, gamma and the other color decoder settings. However, the few I have seen do not come very close. Calibration for the DVD player alone should be fine.

I read something in my sony hd300 box with the GWIII via DVI,about the possibility to set the format to Auto DVI. If I change to that format (AutoDVI) what will actually be happening? Is it preferablele to set it this way?

I had no luck with Auto DVI on my set, but you could try it. Usually it will attempt to match the sets requested resolution. I don't believe the Sony's play well with this. Read the first post for my recommendations on how to feed this set.

Originally posted by Infliktor
I read something in my sony hd300 box with the GWIII via DVI,about the possibility to set the format to Auto DVI. If I change to that format (AutoDVI) what will actually be happening? Is it preferablele to set it this way? I have the SA3250 box with AutoDVI enabled and going to a GWIII. What the STB box does is switch to the format of the channel your on and sends that signal to the GWIII. For example, if you tune to ABC-DT it will send 720P to your GWIII, NBC-DT - 1080I, FOX - 480P, etc. Since the GWIII will handle all these resolutions you should get the best results using this setting and your STB is not attempting to upscale or downscale the actual format. I use the AutoDVI all the time and find it the best method. It's also interesting that Adelphia Cable provides their music channels in 480P. I would have never know this without the AutoDVI enabled.

Thanks Kennio

umr, I have a Denon 2200

I want to adjust the user menu settings for contast, sharpness etc. for my SAT HD300 which is connected via DVI

Is there anyway to accomplish this without a DVI DVD player?

Originally posted by Infliktor
umr, I have a Denon 2200

I want to adjust the user menu settings for contast, sharpness etc. for my SAT HD300 which is connected via DVI

Is there anyway to accomplish this without a DVI DVD player?

A $$$ signal generator with a DVI output (ie. Sencore). A D-VHS deck using DVE connected firewire to HD STB (SIR T165 or LG LST-3410A) connected with DVI. I would not count on a DVI connected DVD player to provide an accurate HD calibration signal.

What about an HTPC connected via DVI to the GWIII?

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
What about an HTPC connected via DVI to the GWIII?

They tend to be expensive for what you get in my book.

Do you mean for just what an HTPC brings in terms of a DVD player?

I mean, an HTPC can be a full media centre with music, DVD, PVR, game system, all in one for just over $1000 (minimum).

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
Do you mean for just what an HTPC brings in terms of a DVD player?

I mean, an HTPC can be a full media centre with music, DVD, PVR, game system, all in one for just over $1000 (minimum).

I don't want to discuss HTPC in this thread. You can buy one if you want. I really don't care. I have been asked to help a manufacturer with their prototype though.

I only wanted to know if an HTPC would provide the ability to tweak a DVI connection by using DVE.

Originally posted by JoeFigueiredo
I only wanted to know if an HTPC would provide the ability to tweak a DVI connection by using DVE.

Of course you can use it to tweak the DVI input. Whether it is accurate is a function of your PC and how else you plan on using the DVI input. PC's are notoriously problematic and are of generally lesser quality compared to other high quality video sources. I have toyed around with a few DVI based DVD playback devices with no real satisfaction for HD calibration. I am sure some solution will or does exist for this, but I have not seen it. Without an HD reference most people are unaware of the problems in trying to do this.

I see. Thanks.

I'm really interested in trying UMR's tweaks, but when it comes to warranties, I'm terrified that one day something will go wrong with my TV and Sony will refuse to fix it because somehow they'd know the Service Menu was accessed.

Does anyone have any experience regarding the warranty and service menu? Would Sony even know if you accessed the SM?
Thanks!

Originally posted by Emissary
...Does anyone have any experience regarding the warranty and service menu? Would Sony even know if you accessed the SM?
Thanks!

I have seen no evidence that Sony is seeking to escape warranty coverage because of service menu access. You would probably hold the bag though if you caused them to service your set by messing up your set in the service menu. I am not aware of them being able to track service menu access with these sets.

I've had my 42" WE for about a week now and spent most of last night applying these settings, and a little more this morning. Also have read as much info as I can get my hands on over the board here and the 40+ pages of this thread. Still have questions that seem common but I couldn't quite grasp the answers.

I applied all suggested tweaks and saw an improvement no question. But there was one that I really wanted to set differently: brightness. I really prefer brightness set at 27 for DVD input (scrutinized many DVD's to arrive at this) and at 34 for the cable box (flipped through all channels several dozen times). I know the recommendation is 37, and I'm surprised I'm that far different. If I use 37, the cable channels are a little bright but acceptable. For DVD's, there is no blacks, just gray in the movies. 27 let black be close to black without losing any detail at all. Past about 31 or so, no more detail came out, I just changed black to gray and it looked terrible.

1) Any why I was so far off?

I figured I'd be "smart" and instead of changing this setting each time I changed inputs, that I'd apply the entire instruction list to the standard mode like I had done to pro. This way I could leave brightness at 34 default for standard and 27 for pro, and not have to change that when going from one source to the other. Overall I'm glad I did, standard mode definitely improved. I'm just hoping to go one step further.

I see a lot of difference between standard and pro besides brightness. I've set standard's gamma settings to the same as those for pro, so as far as I can tell *everything* is set the same except brightness. Even when brightness is set the same, there's still differences! I love my pro mode settings for watching DVD's on video 6, and I'm soooo impressed by this TV right now for that. But for television over the cable box, I'm hoping to change something... Watching HGTV as an example, when in pro mode: trees and bushes transform from light in the sun to dark in the shadowed sections very gradually and beautifully, and the detail was always there. In standard mode: the change from light to dark was very fast with almost no steps in between, and the dark areas had very little detail :(

2) I'm confused as to what, if any, setting is available to make standard more like pro in this way? I much prefer standard for the cable for a variety of reasons, but fixing this would be icing on the cake.

There is no absolute correct level setting for picture, brightness, color, hue.... These must be calibrated to match your inputs. That is why the step by step procedure says what it says. If you want to tweak individual brightness levels for individual devices adjust UBOF for those devices. UBOF, UPOF, SHOF, UCOF, UHOF are for those purposes. This would allow you to use Pro for all inputs if you would like. Read the first post again.

There may be another gamma adjustment (enhanced blacks...) at play on Standard. I don't own one of these sets. You will have to find it yourself if you want to explore further.

I get it now. UBRT for an overall default for a particular mode, then UBOF to tune an individual input beyond that. Ditto for the others. That's what I was missing the first time around.

I should be able to get it from here, thanks. Heh, it would be nice if I could get someone to broadcast the setup screens over the air, through the cable, on my HTPC, VCR, and so on to help tune the individual sources. I can get a couple by eye, but for hue and color I'm not good enough ;)

You can get a SMPTE test pattern at times on various sources, but it is not very commonly broadcast. A few devices can generate their own as well.

I've made the SM changes and was sure to press Mute-Enter to save every one. But the next day, when I went back into the Service Menu, some (but not all) of the changes seem to have reverted back to their initial settings....is this normal?

Originally posted by Emissary
I've made the SM changes and was sure to press Mute-Enter to save every one. But the next day, when I went back into the Service Menu, some (but not all) of the changes seem to have reverted back to their initial settings....is this normal?

No. You need to watch for Write to turn red.

UMR --

I have access to an AEMC CA813 light meter, AVIA colored filters and the gray ramp on THX Optimizer.

I have implemented your tweaks verbatim and I am now going back to adjust those items which require user interaction such as gray scale, brightness, etc.

Is there a simple way for someone not knowledgeable about gray scale adjustments to check your specific adjustments using the tools noted above? You provided the following ratios -- Blue is 6.84% of Green, Red is 61.8% of Green. Can I use these tools to check whether these percentages are achieved on my set (WE) using your specific SM settings or do I have to determine what these percentages SHOULD be on my set (and then calibrate accordingly)? I am also not sure how to use the light meter to determine these percentages.

I am very thankful for your terrific work on this thread. If any of this is too elementary for you to bother with, I would appreciate any links you could provide that might help. I have reviewed the gray scale links in your initial thread and will tackle them again if you tell me the answers are there.

Thanks in advance for your time and consideration.

Just to clarify -- I have reviewed the gray scale links in the first post of THIS thread. I see from an earlier post that you talked about gray scale methods being discussed in the FIRST thread. If by that you meant a thread prior to this one, I have not read that . . . (would appreciate a link if there is one).

dmac6522,

I was discussing this thread.

Originally posted by dmac6522
UMR --

I have access to an AEMC CA813 light meter, AVIA colored filters and the gray ramp on THX Optimizer.

I have implemented your tweaks verbatim and I am now going back to adjust those items which require user interaction such as gray scale, brightness, etc.

Is there a simple way for someone not knowledgeable about gray scale adjustments to check your specific adjustments using the tools noted above? You provided the following ratios -- Blue is 6.84% of Green, Red is 61.8% of Green. Can I use these tools to check whether these percentages are achieved on my set (WE) using your specific SM settings or do I have to determine what these percentages SHOULD be on my set (and then calibrate accordingly)? I am also not sure how to use the light meter to determine these percentages.

I am very thankful for your terrific work on this thread. If any of this is too elementary for you to bother with, I would appreciate any links you could provide that might help. I have reviewed the gray scale links in your initial thread and will tackle them again if you tell me the answers are there.

Thanks in advance for your time and consideration.

You should be able to use percentages close to the ones I posted. That is why I chose to post them. You can also verify them by comparing the color to a Kodak gray card using indirect natural lighting. Starting out with my SM settings is not a bad idea. I would use both gray scale ramps of THX and verify the results with the crossed horizontal ramp on Avia. Once you get it close small shifts in color temperature become pretty obvious. You can then smooth it out by eye with the AVIA crossed ramp.

To use the light meter place the color filter of choice over the sensor and on top of the gray patch while the filter is in contact with the screen. This needs to be done without room lighting. Record the reading for red, green and blue.

Blue % Ratio = 100*(Blue Reading)/(Green Reading)
Red % Ratio = 100*(Red Reading)/(Green Reading)

I would chose to work with the brightest gray patch along with the next to dimmest. Getting an accurate reading for blue can be difficult. The THX gray ramp is nice because the patches are small preventing you from having intensity changes by measuring a different region of the screen.

UMR --

Thanks so much for the reply. I am looking forward to attempting this soon. I have really enjoyed tweaking my set so far and appreciating the differences (although not all is perfect yet).

FYI -- just using your preset tweaks with no changes produced an amazing 1080i picture on my set -- watching Solaris on HBO HD last night (which is a dark, shadowy and moodily lit film) was a revelation. "Eye-popping" clarity is the only way to describe it!

Originally posted by dmac6522
UMR --

Thanks so much for the reply. I am looking forward to attempting this soon. I have really enjoyed tweaking my set so far and appreciating the differences (although not all is perfect yet).

FYI -- just using your preset tweaks with no changes produced an amazing 1080i picture on my set -- watching Solaris on HBO HD last night (which is a dark, shadowy and moodily lit film) was a revelation. "Eye-popping" clarity is the only way to describe it!

Glad you are having fun along with seeing positive results. You should see an XBR950 set with a great HD feed. They have even better resolution than your set or mine.

Perfection is something I have not seen in the video world, but I hope you can come close.

I apologize if this has been asked already but nothing came up when I did a search...

Can the video labels be customized? I already am aware that they can be changed in the menu but am wondering if customized descriptions can be created in the service menu.

Originally posted by sotie
I apologize if this has been asked already but nothing came up when I did a search...

Can the video labels be customized? I already am aware that they can be changed in the menu but am wondering if customized descriptions can be created in the service menu.

Not that I know of.

I'm having trouble setting the picture/contrast with the TXH Optimizer. The boxes never disappear--they only get brighter. How do I know when it has reached an ideal level?
Thanks!

The optimum is the maximum setting if the boxes do not disappear or shift color.

Sorry to keep bugging you, UMR, but I have a question about grayscale. I noticed that all the SM values are the same regardless of what colour temperature is selected in the user menu, so does that mean that these tweaks are designed to make the Warm setting ideal? I was on Neutral when I did the SM tweaks.
Thanks.

Originally posted by Emissary
Sorry to keep bugging you, UMR, but I have a question about grayscale. I noticed that all the SM values are the same regardless of what colour temperature is selected in the user menu, so does that mean that these tweaks are designed to make the Warm setting ideal? I was on Neutral when I did the SM tweaks.
Thanks.

I tweaked neutral because that is the default color temp when you hit reset. You can tweak any setting you choose. The settings I posted are not necessarily correct for every TV. Each one should be independently calibrated for gray scale.

what do steps :
7. Highlight Pro Mode.
8. Press reset on your remote.
actually do. I ask because in all my excitement I didnt do them last night when i did all of the SM tweaks, and i was still happy with the end result.
Can I go and do the reset now? Also after doing the reset do you have to go back and do all of your user menu setup again? I am guessing yes


also in the user menu on a 50WE I am having problem setting the white level ( i forget if its Picture or Brightness right now but i think Picture) using DVE, the screen it uses says its for CRT and that you wil see blooming of the white box when you. What % are people running this at after the UMR tweaks.


SMD

SuperMegaDope,

They reset your system to the default settings. You can do this now, but it might cause a few problems. If you tweaked your gray scale in warm or cool color temperature it will set it to neutral. You will need to manually change it from neutral. You will loose any settings in the user menu you did not save in the service menu. Several user menu changes require manual adjustment and are listed in the procedure. You may also find you need to revisit the service menu if you did not save the default user menu settings correctly.

DVE is not the best tool to set the white level for this technology. I recommend THX Optimizer. Values between 85 and 100% are typical for Picture.

Originally posted by umr
DVE is not the best tool to set the white level for this technology. I recommend THX Optimizer. Values between 85 and 100% are typical for Picture.

umr. do you recommend either DVE or Avia for any of the adjustments for following your SM tweaks, or are they unnecessary if you use just the THX Optimizer?

Conversely, if you do not go into the SM at all, how much improvement can one expect using just Avia or DVE?

Thanks -

Originally posted by JBaumgart
Conversely, if you do not go into the SM at all, how much improvement can one expect using just Avia or DVE?



Wouldn't this depend on how far off it is to start with? If you're comparing to the factory default settings, the difference is significant.

If you don't feel up to going into the service menu, then I'd highly recommend getting someone knowlegable to do it for you.

Originally posted by JBaumgart
umr. do you recommend either DVE or Avia for any of the adjustments for following your SM tweaks, or are they unnecessary if you use just the THX Optimizer?

Conversely, if you do not go into the SM at all, how much improvement can one expect using just Avia or DVE?

Thanks -

Avia or DVE is only necessary if you believe AXIS is insufficient to correct the color decoder. THX Optimizer is good enough to set my the parameters with. Avia is useful if you want to verify the settings I chose or check out other problems with you system like y/c delay.

Avia or DVE is more useful if you don't go into the service menu because you will need to make some compromise for not setting Axis. It depends on how well you adjust the UM with THX Optimizer as to whether Avia or DVE will do much on the other settings. These disks are over emphasized for the more casual person. People who want to examine every aspect of their equipment benefit much more.

Originally posted by umr
SuperMegaDope,

They reset your system to the default settings. You can do this now, but it might cause a few problems. If you tweaked your gray scale in warm or cool color temperature it will set it to neutral. You will need to manually change it from neutral. You will loose any settings in the user menu you did not save in the service menu. Several user menu changes require manual adjustment and are listed in the procedure. You may also find you need to revisit the service menu if you did not save the default user menu settings correctly.

DVE is not the best tool to set the white level for this technology. I recommend THX Optimizer. Values between 85 and 100% are typical for Picture.

Ok now im a little confused, are you saying that there are User Menu settings in the Service Menu? When I get home tonight I will do the reset of Pro mode then run thru the THX setup again and maybe DVE too just to double check.

The only changes I made were the ones I list below, and I used exactly your numbers, my plan was to use yours first and live with it for a week and if I feel anything needs help to revisit the service menu and see what may need further adjustments. I only did the service menu tweaks on my video 1 480I dvd player over svid cable. So far I am very happy, even my vertical banding has diminished some. I still would like to have better detail in the blacks(black crush) and I will work on that. But my big problem is something that no one else seems to be having and that scares me. It is when I do have my picture turned up to where it should be (85%-100%) in the center of my screen i get this weird effect in very bright colors or where
the picture at that part of the screen is white, it makes a super saturated effect. It makes a really weird effect almost like a grainy effect like its coming from the screens texture, or how a pc screen can look when it has oil on it from a finger smudge almost like its showing a bunch of different colors reflections. I have cleaned the scereen with the supplied cloth but no help. when I look at the screen up close in that area I dont see anything at all different from the rest of the screen. I have noticed when i pop in a dvd and initialy get a black screen for a second it looks a lot brighter in that area, tonight I am going to set my dvd player blank screen from blue to black so I can take a look at a black screen longer than 2 seconds and see how bad it is. If it is way to bright in that area can anything be done?

#######################################

DCP-User (Category)

UPIC changed from 46 to 58 (default picture level matches input signal level)
UBRT changed from 31 to 37 (default brightness level matches input signal level)
USHP changed from 36 to 0 (default sharpness 12/28/03)

DCP-ADJ1 (Category)

RDRV changed from 140 to 131 (gray scale adjustment for high level red signal WE version only 12/28/03)
GDRV no change 140 (gray scale adjustment for high level green signal WE version only 12/28/03)
BDRV changed from 140 to 102 (gray scale adjustment for high level blue signal WE version only 12/28/03)
RCUT no change 255 (gray scale adjustment for low level red signal WE version only 12/28/03)
GCUT changed from 255 to 242 (gray scale adjustment for low level green signal WE version only 12/28/03)
BCUT no change 255 (gray scale adjustment for low level blue signal WE version only 12/28/03)

DCP-ADJ2 (Category)

SHF0 changed from various values to 15 (reduces enhancement and improves frequency response 12/28/03)

480i (Composite, Component, S-Video)

MID5 (Category)

MVLS changed from a 1 to a 0 (improves resolution)
MHLC changed from a 3 to a 1 (improves resolution)
########################################


-SMD

SuperMegaDope,

Most of those settings are not meant to be used without test patterns. They are probably close to correct, but not likely to be absolutely correct. You should follow the procedure instead of just setting the values like you did. It is likely you will not get the best performance without following the procedure.

Problems with high picture levels could be an indication that Picture (UPIC) is too high. Many of the service menu values effect the user menu.

Originally posted by umr
SuperMegaDope,

You should follow the procedure instead of just setting the values like you did. It is likely you will not get the best performance without following the procedure.


I know, i got excited and totaly forgot about reading the step by step process when i originally saw this thread. When I got the the end of the section that you have all the tweaked values listed and I saw the step by step part I was like :eek: . It might have had something to do with once I got into the service menu my wife decided she was bored and wanted to talk :rolleyes: I may have to change my name to ServiceMenuDope :p


Originally posted by umr
Problems with high picture levels could be an indication that Picture (UPIC) is too high.


This problem was there even worse before I went into the SM, but since doing the tweaks I brought down Picture in the use menu to I think around 60% wich dramaticaly reduced that horrible effect in the middle 3rd of the screen but at a cost of lowering the rest of the screens picture level to below where it shoud be. The problem is really most notable in the center 3rd of the screen wich makes me think there is a light uniformity issue, maybe a lamp adjustment needs to be done. Below is where it affects my picture the most.
________________
|..............................|
|........... ###...........|
|...........####..........|
|..........####..........|
|..........####..........|
--------------------------


Originally posted by umr
Many of the service menu values effect the user menu.


Ok so now that I havent followed your step by step directions and jumped right in to tweaking the values before doing a reset of Pro un the UM do I need to go back into the SM and put the values back to the original values, then exit SM reset Pro in UM and then follow your step by step, or can i just go into UM and hit reset and then do my THX setup?

thanks for your time, its much appreciated!
SMD

SMD,

I see no reason why you cannot do the step by step procedure as written without returning to the old values. You can also do the THX setup in the UM. The SM might yield better results if you did not hit everything correctly.

oh, i forgot one other thing, I was planning on doing the SM tweaks on both my DVD input AND my cable HD suring the same session, but when I switched to my cable input which is input 6, in the SM in the upper right it said it was input 5?

and oh yeah....while im asking questions.. should I have my hd cable box outputting 1080 or 720, its set to 1080 now


--SMD

The service menu seems to be displaying the first input number for a given type instead of the actual input.

I would set your cable box to 1080i and 720p as described in the procedure.

sorry i wasnt clear, I know to do the SM tweaks with both, what i mean is whats the general consensus on which output from the hd cable box gives a better picture for viewing?

Originally posted by SuperMegaDope
sorry i wasnt clear, I know to do the SM tweaks with both, what i mean is whats the general consensus on which output from the hd cable box gives a better picture for viewing?

The one that matches the resolution of the broadcast. I would pick 1080i if you need to choose only one. I switch mine depending on the source.

ahhh... ok that brings me to my next question, how can i tell what the program is being broadcast in? My hd channels just say HD not hd720 or hd 1080 ...unless im not looking in the right place

Resolution is displayed in the upper right corner when you're in the service menu.

Some have a light for each type 1080 , 720,. Your service menu it will tell you if you use DVI input what its getting 1080 I , 720 P, 480 P, 480 I.

UMR excerpt:

"To use the light meter place the color filter of choice over the sensor and on top of the gray patch while the filter is in contact with the screen. This needs to be done without room lighting. Record the reading for red, green and blue.

Blue % Ratio = 100*(Blue Reading)/(Green Reading)
Red % Ratio = 100*(Red Reading)/(Green Reading)

I would chose to work with the brightest gray patch along with the next to dimmest."

UMR -- a few follow up questions if I may? After following the procedure above I find that my set on your initial settings for RDRV, etc. appears to be Blue at 9.37% of Green and Red at 55.72% of Green (with factory settings appears to be 10.10% and 56.56% respectively). These measurements were taken on the lightest grey patch on the THX screen (you had said "brightest" -- is there a difference? in any event the square furtherest right but one on the ramp -- the last square is white).

I've played with the settings some to measure the effect and have not made a lot of progress -- in part I am not clear on how the *DRV settings interact with the *CUT settings for each color.

Before I go any further is there an approach you can recommend for getting blue to come down and red to go up other than trial and error?

Also, when you say to also measure the "dimmest" grey (which I take to mean the darkest shade of grey versus light intensity, so the square leftmost on the screen but one it seems to me) am I supposed to get the same result in percentages ultimately? Or adjust settings so the readings for the different squares come closest to the desired percentage (understanding that they will never both be identical)?

Last question -- should I care what IRE my DVD player is set to for blacks in measuring these percentages?

A lot of questions -- sorry -- as always really appreciate the information and assistance.

Originally posted by dmac6522
...Before I go any further is there an approach you can recommend for getting blue to come down and red to go up other than trial and error?

Also, when you say to also measure the "dimmest" grey (which I take to mean the darkest shade of grey versus light intensity, so the square leftmost on the screen but one it seems to me) am I supposed to get the same result in percentages ultimately? Or adjust settings so the readings for the different squares come closest to the desired percentage (understanding that they will never both be identical)?

Last question -- should I care what IRE my DVD player is set to for blacks in measuring these percentages?
...

Drop blue on the bright gray patch by dropping the blue gain. Increase red on the bright patch by increasing the red gain. The bias applies to the darker patches. The bias and gain do interact some and you always need to be careful about saturating a panel and shifting the 100% white to some color.

Actually I said to measure the next the darkest patch. You want as close to the same percentages on each swatch of gray as you can.

The black level setting on your DVD player depends on how you are using it. Interlaced it should be set on the lighter mode and progressive should use the darker blacks. Any other settings will violate the standards.

I recently hook up my HD receiver to the second component connection, but when I try to tune up the setting for pro mode, I found that there is no "advance video setting" in the user menu.

It doesn't make sense to me that one componenet(with DVD) has it and the other doesn't. Has anyone aware of that? Thanks.

Originally posted by umr
Drop blue on the bright gray patch by dropping the blue gain. Increase red on the bright patch by increasing the red gain. The bias applies to the darker patches. The bias and gain do interact some and you always need to be careful about saturating a panel and shifting the 100% white to some color.



Thanks, UMR.

By increase red gain I assume you mean increase RDRV only and leave the RCUT alone unless there is a color shift in the white square? Same for blue (but going down not up).

If I increase red all the way and the percentage of green is still low should I lower the GRDV accordingly?

I take it from your comments that the *CUT settings affect bias and not gain?

This is the final step on my implementing your tweaks, after which I am going to use AVIA to measure the overall impact of the changes. On a completely biased personal point of view I am very pleased with the net effect of the changes. I think I am as close as I may get to the original source (with all its imperfections). HDTV when it is good is GREAT, but HDTV is not always good <grin>. I am very pleasantly surprised by the quality of many digital cable channels -- movies on these channels can often be quite good. DVD has been very good always and often GREAT.

Thanks to you, UMR -- you are the best!

Originally posted by mightihd
I recently hook up my HD receiver to the second component connection, but when I try to tune up the setting for pro mode, I found that there is no "advance video setting" in the user menu.

It doesn't make sense to me that one componenet(with DVD) has it and the other doesn't. Has anyone aware of that? Thanks.

Advanced is only available for 480i inputs. HD is normally 1080i or 720p so no "Advanced Video Settings" are available.

Originally posted by dmac6522
Thanks, UMR.

By increase red gain I assume you mean increase RDRV only and leave the RCUT alone unless there is a color shift in the white square? Same for blue (but going down not up).

If I increase red all the way and the percentage of green is still low should I lower the GRDV accordingly?

I take it from your comments that the *CUT settings affect bias and not gain?

This is the final step on my implementing your tweaks, after which I am going to use AVIA to measure the overall impact of the changes. On a completely biased personal point of view I am very pleased with the net effect of the changes. I think I am as close as I may get to the original source (with all its imperfections). HDTV when it is good is GREAT, but HDTV is not always good <grin>. I am very pleasantly surprised by the quality of many digital cable channels -- movies on these channels can often be quite good. DVD has been very good always and often GREAT.

Thanks to you, UMR -- you are the best!

Gain is equal to drive and cut is equal to bias. The terms are interchangeable.

It may be necessary to adjust green if you cannot adjust the others enough to reach the target color for gray. The goal is to run green as high as possible at 100 IRE to maximize the contrast ratio. This assumes that the green panel is limiting on your TV.

Originally posted by umr
Gain is equal to drive and cut is equal to bias. The terms are interchangeable.

It may be necessary to adjust green if you cannot adjust the others enough to reach the target color for gray. The goal is to run green as high as possible at 100 IRE to maximize the contrast ratio. This assumes that the green panel is limiting on your TV.

Interesting point about whether green is the limiting factor. Is there any reason to assume that it is on these sets? I believe I recall from my reading about grayscale on the suggested links that (in reference to LCD projectors I think) red was assumed to be the limiting factor.

If I measured each color with the other colors at zero and established their relative strengths I think mathematically I could determine which was the limiting color (understanding that I'm trying to reach your suggested percentages one way or the other).

Any thoughts on whether this is a worthwhile exercise if I find I need to lower green (or even if I do not have to lower green)?

Thanks as always

Folks,

I recently bought the Sony XBR 60'' TV. I am in a current dilemna. Got excited about component cables (Monster MV3CV) and was loving the experience. Now I thought well Monster M500 is one of the best cables and bought it at eBay (therefore no return!). As soon as I did that the picture is very sharp but most of DVDs seem to have issues for me since its too sharp! I see pixels on some, etc. Prob is somewhat DVDs and some that my DVD player is not progressive. Its a 2-yr old panasonic 5-dvd changer.

Now the two choices are sell cable back on ebay or upgrade DVD player to a progressive scan. I am thinking off trying out going the DVD player route and am undecided which DVD player to go for.

What suits my budget are Pioneer DV 563AS or Sony 725P since both are under $150. I need make this decision fast coz I love the TV but DVD watching is not that great anymore!

Someone suggested that UMRs tweaks will definitely help in the above for me. Although I believe that, I am a little apprehensive in doing those tweaks since

- I just bought the TV
- Am scared I might mess something up! How hard is it?
- Have heard/read that those tweaks might void your warranty. True?

thanks

The tweaks are really easy. Just read through the first post a couple of times until you're comfortable with it and then follow the step-by-step instructions. They couldn't be easier.

As for warranty, no one has been able to really answer that question. There most likely isn't a way for Sony to know if you have been in the SM unless you tell them, so don't tell them ;) . So you'll probably be fine as long as you don't cause any damage yourself through the SM (and if you stick to UMR's tweaks, there's nothing dangerous).

Originally posted by dmac6522
...
Any thoughts on whether this is a worthwhile exercise if I find I need to lower green (or even if I do not have to lower green)?

Thanks as always

Accurate gray scale is a worthwhile exercise. I would give it a shot. You can always revert to your original settings if you don't like it. The key is to try and maximize contrast ratio at the same time. This requires you identify the limiting panel and adjust the other panels to match it.

I'm seeing a lot of moire pattern artifacts especially in SD. For example while watching SD hockey I can see a rainbow pattern on the referee's jersey or around the lettering of a players name. Even saw this around their sticks at times. Also if i freeze frame an image with white text, the lettering if small is basically filled with colors. Is their any user menu or or service menu tweak that can help to reduce this? Also I'm curious, my set has mis-convergence about 1 pixel off, could this be the cause?

Thanks

jav1,

I know of no other adjustments that would help other than those in the first post of this thread. The default level of filtering helps reduce moire, but it reduces the resolution of the picture. This is the trade off from the default filtering and the recommended tweaks.

umr.

Thanks, any ideas what causes this? Seems to be different from set to set. On my friends GWIII I never see it. Only thing I notice different is that his convergence was less off around lettering.

Originally posted by umr
[B The default level of filtering helps reduce moire, but it reduces the resolution of the picture. This is the trade off from the default filtering and the recommended tweaks. [/B]

UMR

Which settings are you referring to?

Thanks,

Jim

JimP,

These settings all reduce the filtering/enhancement that can increase moire.

MID5 (Category)

MVLS changed from a 1 to a 0 (improves resolution)
MHLC changed from a 3 to a 1 (improves resolution)

DCP-ADJ2 (Category)

SHF0 changed from various values to 15 (reduces enhancement and improves frequency response 12/28/03)

A question for umr. I have the Sony 50" and just got my Dish 811. Want to get a DVI cable and would like to know what you think about cables. I did your tweaks and they helped so I thought you may just be the most knowledgable about this tv on the forum. I have the usual question regarding cables ie: should I buy the expensive stuff or is the cheaper stuff all I need? I am assuming that with all of your tweaking you may have played with different cables to see what the results would be. I have no problem spending the extra money if it is going to make a difference but on the other hand I don't want to throw my money away if it does no good. The way I see it after spending about 4K on everything it is stupid to ruin everything with cables that will not allow the tv to give me the best picture.
Before anyone tells me to do a search, I did. I have searched for cables, DVI, DVI cables, monster cable, with only very little results.

dsilinski,

I have not experimented with cables. I use a 6 ft. Belkin DVI cable that I purchased used off ebay for about $10. The shorter the cable you can use the less quality should matter. I would guess when you get to the longer lengths cable quality can become an issue, but I have not seen any posts showing measurements of cable attenuation and how it effects DVI performance.

I have seen a few posts showing how performance was impacted on longer runs with cheap cables and better quality cables fixed the problem. It is unclear to me when and what you should go with at any given length.

Originally posted by dsilinski
Before anyone tells me to do a search, I did. I have searched for cables, DVI, DVI cables, monster cable, with only very little results. I know you directed this question to umr, but I'm going to add my 2cents worth. RAM Connectivity Solutions a sponsor for this forum has a great DVI cable. They make 3 different grades of cable including a fiber optic version for real long runs. I'm very pleased with my cable and the price was right. You can click on the RAM logo at the top of this page if you would like to check them out.

umr, thanks for the response. Kenni_o I didn't mean to exclude anyone. I also appreciate your response and anyone who might take the time to respond. I just feel umr to be the goto guy for this tv and hoped he may have done some experimenting with cables.
I have read that with digital cables you don't have to spend the extra money since you only dealing with 0 and 1 but I have seen my computer monitor do some strange things due to interference. What I'm looking for from anyone is if they sat down with a few different cables in say cheap, mid, and high end and did some obective viewing with them. Something like umr did with his tweaks. On the few threads that I did find doing a search, most of the posts went something like I am using "x" cable and it is great. Hardly what I would call objective. As an example I found a DVI cable that I had lying around from a computer monitor I purchased awhile ago. I am using it and the picture is fine but that doesn't mean the picture couldn't be better with a better cable. I guess I will have to get off of my lazy backside and spend the money and do some comparison testing.

Originally posted by dsilinski
.... As an example I found a DVI cable that I had lying around from a computer monitor I purchased awhile ago. I am using it and the picture is fine but that doesn't mean the picture couldn't be better with a better cable. I guess I will have to get off of my lazy backside and spend the money and do some comparison testing.

I would not worry if you don't see any problems. All the reports I have seen and read indicated it is obvious when you have a problem. Some people have seen what I would call solarization or heavy pixelation while others see sparkling pixels.

UMR, I know that you (rightly) recommend that people do their own calibration instead of blindly following your numbers, but having no access to light meters etc., would it be safe to say that your numbers for the grayscale adjustment, though not perfect on every set, would still be closer to what it should be than the defaults for neutral or warm?

Originally posted by Emissary
UMR, I know that you (rightly) recommend that people do their own calibration instead of blindly following your numbers, but having no access to light meters etc., would it be safe to say that your numbers for the grayscale adjustment, though not perfect on every set, would still be closer to what it should be than the defaults for neutral or warm?

I do not have enough data to make that call. You could try it on your set and see for yourself.

Originally posted by umr
I do not have enough data to make that call. You could try it on your set and see for yourself.
What are some good reference points to look at with the naked eye in order to pass judgement?
Sorry if this is a really basic, silly question.

Originally posted by Emissary
What are some good reference points to look at with the naked eye in order to pass judgement?
Sorry if this is a really basic, silly question.

The gray squares on THX optimizer along with a reference like a Kodak gray card with indirect daylight lighting. I would use the crossed horizontal gray ramp on Avia if you have it.

umr,

I recently had cable installed in my home and i am less than pleased with the clarity of the picture on my 42" sony GWIII.

Any suggestions?

Originally posted by terrance_s
umr,

I recently had cable installed in my home and i am less than pleased with the clarity of the picture on my 42" sony GWIII.

Any suggestions?

Did you follow all of the suggestions in the first post of this thread?

I did perform all the service menu adjustments you suggested. Do you think the cable company needs to come back out and check their lines or something?

Originally posted by terrance_s
I did perform all the service menu adjustments you suggested. Do you think the cable company needs to come back out and check their lines or something?

I have no other suggestion than to do that. The first thread has all of my thoughts about how to optimize PQ on these sets. Be sure to read the suggestions of how to connect sources as well at the service menu tweaks.

I had posted this request earlier on a different thread but this is probably the better place for it. I am looking for someone to confirm two default values in the service menu for me. I'd need to know the default values for category A7001R item 0 RGAINA and A7001G item 0 GGAINA. These are toward the end of the service menu. I believe I may have saved values here unintentionally. I greatly appreciate anyone who can take a couple of minutes and check this out.

Hi guys, rare but yes a female member does exsist here. Prior to reading UMR's warning, I had previously pressed the sequence buttons on my remote for resetting ALL VALUES assumingly to the "factory default." After reading various posts I realize now that my service menu values are not the same. Please dont hate me guys for not writing down my values before I started to "self tweak" my set...I remember seeing original values posted from the earlier days of this thread, but its gotton so big since I last visited that I am lost. Will anyone guide me with a link or the original values. It is my understandig that the manual settings are not the same as "out of the box"

UMR,

Okay, you said grey scale was hard to do. Yep. I am back to the original settings now after attempting your recommended percentages. I was able to get within a percent or so for each color but there was a clear color shift in the white square. What I did not attempt was adjusting the RCUT, etc. settings to see if that would fix the color shift.

In the meanwhile I have acquired the recommended Kodak grey scale card. I am wondering if I should try a different approach using the card to set the grey scale. Is there a specific procedure you can recommend or suggest (FYI-- I have Avia, DVE and THX discs at my disposal). Or do you think I should approximate your percentages and pay around with the RCUT, etc. settings?

On another note, I have noticed a bright spot centered on my set (probably where the bulb is located) that creates a fuzzy blob about the size of my fist. I noticed it when I got the set -- it would come and go -- then it was not noticeable for quite a while and now seems to be back. I am wondering what might cause this. I imagine it is the bulb perhaps burning too brightly and saturating or somehow affecting the LCD panels. Any thoughts? Are there settings which might affect this? My brightness setting is 100% following the recommended procedure. BTW-- I have seen this effect in store models for this set as well.

Apart from these two problems I have been living with my adjusted set following your procedures and I am very pleased with the result. Most everything looks very good (a few broadcast channels are poor but then we watch the HDTV versions anyways) and certain cable channels, DVD and HDTV range from very good to awesome in terms of details, sharpness, etc.

So, thanks for all the guidance UMR, it has been very much appreciated!

Regarding whether you should adjust grayscale or not, this would depend on how well the current grayscale is tracking.

Using the DVE DVD, how does the gray ramp compare to the gray card?

dmac6522,

I would start out with my cut and drive settings and then manually tweak the cuts on something like a 30 IRE window to match the Kodak card. Once you do that calculate the percentages and apply them to a 70 IRE window.

You may have the picture level set too high if you are seeing some unevenness with very bright images. You can verify this with your light meter by measuring the light output at each IRE level. The light output should increase by a fixed ratio once you take the log of the readings.

JimP,
umr,

Thank you both for your replies.

JimP,

What is the process for comparing the gray ramp on DVE to the gray card? What am I looking for precisely?

umr,

By your cut and drive settings do you mean your actual numbers for RDRV, etc. or whatever settings get me to your recommended percentages? I am guessing the latter.

If I understand you correctly, when I adjust from your settings on 30 IRE to match the gray card I then translate those percentages to a 70 IRE window. If I then need to make changes to the 70 IRE window they will obviously change the 30 IRE window away from the gray card but I am guessing you consider that the correct percentages on the 70 IRE window are more important for overall grayscale.

dmac6522,

I was suggesting you use my actual cut and drive values to start with since the light meter values were off.

The gray scale adjustment is a little more complex. You must go back and forth between 30 and 70 IRE until the reading do not change. You then must check a gray scale ramp and ensure the gray scale is even across all levels. You should also check the THX Optimizer picture level pattern to see if you are saturating a panel. You must reduce the picture level if you see a color shift on this display. You should also determine which panel saturates first and adjust the other panels around it. This may sound complex, but I am not sure how to make it simpler.

I want to publicly thank umr for his help and expertise in his unwavering response and input to me and my ISF technician regarding the installation of a neutral density filter into my 60" GWIII XBR.

My very knowledgeable ISF technician came to my house today to remove his original neutral desnity filter that introduced rainbows to my picture. Baffled and beweildered, we both sent PMs to umr and he was able to guide us in the right direction.

Believe it or not, it all comes down to quality. My technican had used the same type of filter, same specs but umr said he never had any problems with his "Kodak" filters. Well, as usual, he was right. Amazing.

Absolutely gorgeous. If anyone has any doubts whatsoever about umr and his opinions and expertise, and whether a neutral density filters will enahnce their GWIIIs let me add my name to the list of truly satisfied customers.

THANK YOU UMR!

Dom

P.S. I will be posting some before and after pics tomorrow to show everyone the difference. Now I'm off to take some pics!

Dom,

I can't wait to see them. This is the one area I thought the GWIII was a little weak.

UMR,

I finally got the guts to do UMR's tweaks (except for the complicated grey scale ones) and am very happy with the results. I have to say that my dvd picture quality is really amazing and the cable is very good depending on the quality of the broadcast (I still prefer standard for sd broadcasts).

But I do have one question: my settings were somewhat different then yours especially for sharpness. I ended up with 30 for brightness instead of your 37 and 18 for sharpness instead of your 0. I used THX for brightness and AVIA for sharpness as you recommended.

Should I re-examine my settings?

BTW, I have a 50 inch WE...

Thanks so much for your help in this forum!

rob

Originally posted by Hoopnoop
.... my settings were somewhat different then yours especially for sharpness. I ended up with 30 for brightness instead of your 37 and 18 for sharpness instead of your 0. I used THX for brightness and AVIA for sharpness as you recommended.

Should I re-examine my settings?

...

It is never a bad idea to review your settings, but following the procedure is what is important not the actual settings. This of course is for the ones that require test patterns.

Dominus...I sent you a PM.
Thanks,
Brian S

Well, I decided to jump into the GWIII (non-XBR) service menu this evening. All went well, but I discovered something that was kind of strange.

If I was on a category such as DCP-ADJ1 and I changed resolutions through the DVI input (i.e. from 480p to 720p), then resolution specific parameters such as CBOF, SCON, etc. were updated to match the new resolution.

However...

If I was on the MID5 category, then the POP (and related) values were NOT updated as I changed resolutions. In other words, if I started out with 480i over DVI in the Standard mode, the POP value was 66 as expected. If I changed to any other resolution (720p, 1080i, etc.), the POP value remained at 66. The only way I could get it to update to its proper value was to exit the service menu and get back into it.

The MID5 behavior is very inconsistent with how other categories seem to work. Is this just a bug in the service menu? Or is there another explanation? Are there other categories / items that act the same way?

Thanks in advance for any responses! :cool:

This doesn't seem odd to me, but then again I think I've figured out how that part of the SM seems to work. :p

The first value in MID5 (POP) isn't a setting that gets saved when you make changes in the service menu; rather, changing it only changes the rest of the values in MID5 to various preset values. So, if your POP is currently 0 you'll see that the rest of your MID5 values are at some setting, and by changing POP to different values you should notice the rest of the MID5 menu's values will change. Further, if you leave your POP value alone and you make changes to the other values in MID5, when you save them, what you are doing is making changes to that 'set' of MID5 values. How do you tell all your different modes to use a given POP value since you can't actually save that setting? Simple (once you figure it out thanks to umr implying this is how it works :p), change the value for MIDE in DCP-ADJ2 for all your input / resolution combinations to the value of MID5:POP that you've been working on. If you want your SD and HD settings to be different from one another, this is also no problem - just use a different setting for MIDE / POP for the different resolutions. :)

So, in an attempt to make this clear for those that want a minimum of frustration, confusion, and work, what you should do is first find a value for MID5:POP that you like and don't touch it afterwards. Make changes in the rest of MID5 as you see fit and finally go back into DCP-ADJ2 and change MIDE for all inputs / resolutions you want affected by the changes you just did in MID5 to whatever value your MID5:POP is in order to make the TV use the settings you just worked so hard on once you leave the SM. [/runon] :D

That confirms what I was suspecting in regards to the relationship between the POP value and rest of the values in MID5. The service manual also implies this relationship. I had also read earlier about the relationship between MIDE and POP. However, after 40+ pages of posts, I'd lost track of that... :)

It still seems odd to me that the POP values of MID5 won't "refresh" and display the currently applicable POP value when the resolution changes. But, I suppose MIDE is the important parameter anyway.

Thanks for the explanation, Googer! :D That helped clarify things quite a bit.

My ColorFacts CF6500 Calibration System will be here tomorrow. I will post the results of my 70" XBR calibration by the weekend.

Googer and Chili Dog

So what you guys are saying is that in order to make changes to the values within the Mid 5 catagory for each input/resolution, you must save your setting for your last input/resolution selection, then change to your new input/res, exit and reenter the service menu and then do the process all over again.,

Otherwise, you're not really seeing the actual settings when you switch to other inputs and resolutions?


bberns22
It'll be interesting to see your results. I've had problems in the past trying to get the color decoder adjusted correctly using test patterns on Avia and DVE using the supplied filters and then the Kodak tricolor filters. This was on the non xbr version in the 60" size. It seems that the colors don't saturate the same at different brightness levels. I don't know how ColroFacts is suppose to work, but maybe it'll shed some light on the subject.

Originally posted by JimP
So what you guys are saying is that in order to make changes to the values within the Mid 5 catagory for each input/resolution, you must save your setting for your last input/resolution selection, then change to your new input/res, exit and reenter the service menu and then do the process all over again.,
You are correct that you must save your changes every time you're done making changes to the input / resolution you're currently working on since changes you make will otherwise be lost when you switch to a new one. However, you don't actually need to leave and re-enter the service menu; just remember to change DCP-ADJ2:MIDE on all the input / resolution combinations you want affected by your MID5 changes.

Basically, if you want all inputs tweaked the exact same way, you just want to tweak MID5:... once on one input, save the changes, then just go through all inputs and make DCP-ADJ2:MIDE the same on all of them (and equal to whatever MID5:POP is in your now-tweaked MID5 menu). Just remember you won't see anything happening when changing DCP-ADJ2:MIDE because that's setting the value of MID5:POP to use when you're not in the service menu - it won't change POP on-the-fly or even as you change inputs in the SM (as Chilli_Dog noted).

I forgot about this connection of the two settings. I always thought POP was a combination of the settings to get that reading... Please somebody please post what this reading should be. I have done the UMR step by step but was also wondering why pop was changing....So what readings should DCP- ADJ2 : MIDE be for each input.....? or each input resolution 1080 I for example. In MIDE 5 I have MVLC = 0, MHLC = 1 per UMR'S setting. Thanks....

As far as I can tell, POP is just a setting telling the TV which set of numbers to use for the rest of MID5 but the number itself doesn't mean anything - each possible value for POP seems to represent an entirely independent list of settings for the rest of MID5. I believe the easiest way to avoid utterly confusing oneself is to work with a single value of MIDE / POP for a given resolution and make it the same for all inputs at that resolution.

I did this by first starting with a value for POP that I thought looked pretty good on a given input and then finished tweaking it in the rest of the MID5 menu (ending up with settings close but not identical to what umr's suggested settings are). I saved these settings, made a note of what the POP value was that I was just working with, and then went back and changed MIDE for all input / resolutions that I wanted affected by these settings including the one I just worked on as I changed POP when working in the MID5 menu. In my case this was everything because I found the tweaked settings to work equally well for SD and HD (also note I found my HTPC to be tremendously helpful here as I don't happen to have an HD pattern generator or DVHS rig like umr has access to :p). Don't forget TwinView, the Firewire (if XBR) input, etc., as they all have their own setting memories as well. <speculative> Finally, lather, rinse, and repeat using a different POP / MIDE value for any resolutions /inputs that you want tweaked differently. </speculative>

Final (for now ;)) note: also remember that many of the inputs seem to share SM settings, so for example, I don't think it will be possible for you to uniquely set MIDE / POP on video 1 and video 3. I didn't really notice this on my 60XBR950 (mainly because I'm using so few inputs on it with virtually all switching being done externally), but when I ran through the SM on my brother's 50WE610 (on which he's using all inputs), I noted that many of the inputs were already tweaked when I got to them after I did the first couple.

Wait there's more! XBR Ownners... In the Pro Mode, the 4 settings for the detail enhancer allow you to have 4 different sets of values of Mid5(probably others as well but it's been a while). Allowing you to have different levels of sharpness based on the material you are watching. I have settings and edge enchancments for Photos, Games, Movies, etc.

Thx,
Vidkid

Vidkid, Can't find where you have it posted? I have watched your spreadsheet but no changes.....Note the last three threads on this post about keeping each MIDE 5 settings by using DCP-ADJ 2 : MIDE settings. If this is true your 4 settings could be recorded & could be changed at this point in service menu. UMR Please update us on this I forgot the two settings worked together but Googer reminded us. I cant find it on the thread when we found they interact . What should DCP-ADJ 2 be with what setting in MIDE 5.....? I know fact original was 56....

G.B.

I don't remember what POP settings looked the best. This is what you need to set DCP-ADJ2 properly.

I believe umr said that he liked either 84 or 88 the best before tweaking the rest of MID5. However, as I've previously stated (or at least implied :p), it shouldn't really matter because you can always tweak a given value for MIDE / POP in the rest of MID5 exactly as you see fit, so another way you could tweak this stuff would be ignore MIDE / POP altogether and just play with the rest of the settings in MID5. If you do it this way, however, you would still need to keep in mind that you couldn't be changing inputs in the service menu unless you still remembered to change the value of POP to the new input's MIDE value before working in MID5 (because as others have noted, the value for POP in the service menu doesn't change as you cycle through the different inputs, even if the inputs' MIDE values differ).

GB.... I've started the ardous process of updating the Spreadsheet. Now that I've picked up an 5900XT to play with, I've got a reason to be poking around in the service menu. This is my quandry. I have Vivid, Standard and Pro tweaked along with the 4 diffent settings in the Detail enhancer to record... So I've started the additions to the spreadsheet but it will take a while to reach the goal.

What I'm facing with redocumenting is Vivid, Standard and Pro allow for complete setting changes across non input specific areas of the SM, such as MID1 thru 5. (I have each dialed in) In Pro, you get the 4 variations of the MID5 settings to play with by turning mild mode on and switching between the detail enhancer settings. Too many numbers!

Thx,
Vidkidd

Vidkidd, Yes keep up the good work I will keep looking in your spreadsheet for any updates. Its hard to work with so many things in the service menu & how they can interact & react to each setting. In electronic theory & design they always say if you gain in one thing , you can lose something . This is true in this setup. We have more types of input now that we have never done before on television....Thanks G.B.

Vidkidd

If it would make it simplier, I'd leave out the "Mild Mode" on numbers.

UMR, After Googer reminding about a interaction with DCP- ADJ 2 : MIDE & MIDE 5 settings. I worked with SM over the week end & this is what Ifound. In 1080 I you enter service menu & POP is 56 this is what MIDE in DCP- ADJ 2 has to. You make your calibrations in 56 & they stay. But when you go to 480 P for DVD you still have 56 in POP. In DCP-ADJ 2 it will change to 52. If you enter the service menu in 480 P your POP reading will be 52 & 52 in MIDE 5. You can change both calibrations by changing 56 to 52 & make your calibrations on each without going in & out of service menu, but need to know what numbers for each input....so look in DCP ADJ 2 : MIDE & It will tell you your settings. Also VIVID, STANDARD, PRO, each have differant settings here. But with your settings we are only doing this in PRO. UMR , we had this in the thread before with people wondering why POP changed ,but I did not look to deep in It because I was calibrating one thing at a time for each input.

I agree UMR, I didnt want to do any double scaling first on the dvd player then in the tv to get it to the sony native resolution.......
But I ended up buying the Zenith DVB318 last Friday for $160 shipped and received it on Sat. My sony dvd player died last week and I needed to replace it now and I agree that I would want a high end 480p player and let the tv do the job but the high end players were out of my range and to me it looked like the Zenith DVB318 was about the best "bang for the buck" in the under $200 market.

On another subject...

A repairman came out 2 weeks ago to look at my 50we610 and sony is replacing the entire light block/engine this friday, so hopefully this will clear up my problems with the vertical banding and hotspot weird effect in the center of the screen, plus the green blob on the lower left. Is there anything I should know or lookout for when they put in the new engine?

Thanks again,
SMD

umr,

all i can say is you ROCK! i finally got to sit down and run the tweaks in the SM after receiving my denon 2200. i used a 18% Gray Card to try and eye the grey level and make the CUT's and DRV's to adjust the greyscale, until i can get a meter to do it.

The set looks way better than it did, i was beginning to get disappointed with some of the OOB settings, but it's awesome now. Thanks for your expertise!

My setting were very similar to yours but my greyscale changes (CUT/DRV) were a bit different on some and the same on others.

I did notice i got a better DVD 480P picture with the Denon 2200, setting the setup menu option of black level to "darker".

After reading through about 11 pages of this, all I want to know is how to get rid of excessive green I see in all low lwvel blacks on my 50we610. This has gotten VERY confusing over the last few pages and I was wondering if I could just get a simple set of instructions on how and what to do to adjust the overall low level green that I am seeing. Thanks!

Clem C,

What you need to do is adjust the gray scale. This happens to be the most difficult thing to do on this TV. I would suggest you get your hands on a Kodak Gray Card, AEMC light meter and a copy of DVE or Avia. With those you should be able to do a very credible job adjusting the cuts and drives on this set. You could also just take a swag at reducing the green cut and see if that alone is good enough for you. I would use a gray ramp like that found on THX Optimizer, Avia or DVE to help with this.

Clem

All the uncalibrated GWIIIs I've seen, seems to be off towards the blue, not the green.

Don't underestimate the value of using a Kodak Gray card and the gray ramp as UMR suggested as you can really get yourself twisted around adjusting the wrong colors.

After reading through about 11 pages of this, all I want to know is how to get rid of excessive green I see in all low lwvel blacks on my 50we610. This has gotten VERY confusing over the last few pages and I was wondering if I could just get a simple set of instructions on how and what to do to adjust the overall low level green that I am seeing. Thanks!

There are 2 other adjustments in DCP-ADJ1 that are rarely if ever mentioned. These are CROF and CBOF, the CB and CR gain offsets for the particular input and the particular mode (Vivid, Standard, Pro). These adjust the gain offsets to the color difference signals CB and CR. They will have no effect on the gray scale calibrations, and the gray scale values will have no effect on the CB and CR gain. By adjusting these you can tune out some of the differences that appear in colored objects as they go from middle density to low light density. If flesh tones go green in the shadows, up the values of both CBOF and CROF until the color of the shadow areas matches (approximately) the color of the lit areas of the same object. It takes some tweaking and tuning to get these right. Be careful that you don't confuse cyan (which requires red only adjustments) with green (which requires both red and blue).

These adjustments will only effect colored objects. If black and white stuff goes green in the lowlights, you need to track the gray scale using RCUT, GCUT, BCUT and RDRV, GDRV, BDRV in ADJ1. You can not fix gray scale problems with fixes to the chroma axes and vice versa.

Originally posted by zoundz
There are 2 other adjustments in DCP-ADJ1 that are rarely if ever mentioned. These are CROF and CBOF, the CB and CR gain offsets for the particular input and the particular mode (Vivid, Standard, Pro). These adjust the gain offsets to the color difference signals CB and CR. They will have no effect on the gray scale calibrations, and the gray scale values will have no effect on the CB and CR gain. By adjusting these you can tune out some of the differences that appear in colored objects as they go from middle density to low light density. If flesh tones go green in the shadows, up the values of both CBOF and CROF until the color of the shadow areas matches (approximately) the color of the lit areas of the same object. It takes some tweaking and tuning to get these right. Be careful that you don't confuse cyan (which requires red only adjustments) with green (which requires both red and blue).

These adjustments will only effect colored objects. If black and white stuff goes green in the lowlights, you need to track the gray scale using RCUT, GCUT, BCUT and RDRV, GDRV, BDRV in ADJ1. You can not fix gray scale problems with fixes to the chroma axes and vice versa.

I recommend using the color decoder adjustments instead of CROF and CBOF. These are:

RYB (Red level for color decoder)
RYR (Red hue for color decoder)
GYB (Green level for color decoder)
GYR (Green hue for color decoder)

Thanks so much for all your hard work pioneering these Grand Wega tweaks UMR! I have finally done the tweaks on my 42" GWIII today. AWESOME! I am amazed at how much better it looks, especially 480P. I wonder what I'm going to have do once I plug my Zenith 318 in tomorrow. I have a DVD-2900 being delivered, and it will be in my main HT. The zenith will be replacing a DVD-XP50. Thanks again UMR.

Patrick,

I'm glad you are pleased. I researched and posted this information to help others get the PQ that these sets are capable of delivering.

Your Zenith should perform very well. You may need to revisit the tweaks to get the levels correct.

Enjoy your set.

I recommend using the color decoder adjustments instead of CROF and CBOF. These are:

RYB (Red level for color decoder)
RYR (Red hue for color decoder)
GYB (Green level for color decoder)
GYR (Green hue for color decoder)


You are correct that these can also be used for this purpose, but they are not the same thing. These are the color matrix adjustments which can be used to color correct the entire picture. CBOF and CROF actually adjust the gain of the CB and CR signals which produces quite a different result. Not having the service manual, I can't be sure, but I believe that your interpretations of RYB, RYR, GYB, and GYR are probably not exactly correct. Perhaps someone with access to the manual can clarify. The concept of "Red Hue" and "Green Hue" are not too comprehensible to me, since the normal usage of "Hue" concerns the rotation of the entire color wheel around the axis.

Not trying to start an argument, BTW, just looking for as much information as possible.

Thanks for all the advice and help. This is a great resource. BTW I'm a professional photographer, so I am VERY sensitive to color shifts.
Thanks again all! I'll give it a try!

zoundz,

I am correct about RYB.... These are the color matrix adjustments for red and green. Blue uses color and hue.

The concept of hue for any color is that it adjusts the level of that color in the complements. Yellow/Cyan for green, Yellow/Magenta for red, Cyan/Magenta for blue. The color or level adjustment adjusts the level of that primary alone. These can all be used to correctly balance the primaries and complements relative to white. AXIS on this TV will generally be correct or nearly correct unless your device is not outputing the appropriate levels.

CB and CR bias and gain are totally different and much more difficult to use because you impact green with both inputs by the following relationship.

R'= Y' + 0.0000*Cb + 1.5701*Cr
G'= Y' - 0.1870*Cb - 0.4664*Cr
B'= Y' - 1.8556*Cb + 0.0000*Cr

You can make a real mess of things by tinkering with CB and CR gain and bias. These should be correct unless the A/D conversion is out of calibration or your source device levels are off.

Originally posted by zoundz
There are 2 other adjustments in DCP-ADJ1 that are rarely if ever mentioned. These are CROF and CBOF, the CB and CR gain offsets for the particular input and the particular mode (Vivid, Standard, Pro). These adjust the gain offsets to the color difference signals CB and CR. They will have no effect on the gray scale calibrations, and the gray scale values will have no effect on the CB and CR gain.....

This is a false statement CBOF and CROF do effect gray scale. I just verified this on my TV.

It may not be obvious if your gray scale is not close to D65.

Does anybody what to use to tweak the overscan ?

I have tried to use DHPH, DVPH, MDHS, MDVS, MDHO, MDVO, MDHP, MDVP they move the window around but down does not seem to change the overscan.

These will change the overscan as described on the first page.

MID1 (Category) BE CAREFUL WITH THESE THEY CAN RENDER YOUR SET USELESS

DHPH (Horizontal position)
DVPH (Veticle position)
MDHS (Horizontal size)
MDVS (Vertical size)

Be careful with MID1. It can cause havoc on ALL inputs. If you need to tweak overscan on a specific input, I recommend:
(standard you goof up disclaimer... its your fault its your set)

MID2 is input specific for 480i inputs
RHPL - Adjusts Horizontal display Position for 480i
RHSL - Adjusts Horizontal display size for 480i
replace H with V for vertical

MID4 is input specifc for 720P / 1080i devices
DHPL - Adjusts Horizontal display Position for 720p/1080i
DHSL - Adjusts Horizontal display Size for 720p/1080i
replace H with V for vertical

For a bit more definition:
MDHP - Horizontal Position of Display Area Window
MDHS - Horozontal Size of Display Area Window
MDHO - Horizontal Size Offest (1 click here = 10 clicks in MDHS)
Replace the H with V for vertical

Thx,
Vidkidd

Is there an overscan adjustment specific to 480p?

Hey Sonics2710.... I dont have my service manual or the set in front of me. From what I remember, MID2 probably adjusts 480P for the input you are working with.

Thx,
Vidkidd

Has anyone posted the custom timings for the Bravo D2 DVD player/Sony KDF60XBR950 yet? Searching did not provide any results for me. Thanks.

First of all: Thanks to umr for this guide. By doing your step-by-step procedure, I was able to get a lot more out of my already great (by my estimation) KF-50. The SD analogue cable looks tons better, and my DVDs and xbox images are quite a bit better as well. So thank you, Sir.

Now a question -- will changing anything in the user menu negate anything in the service menu? I ask because colors seem a bit stronger than I would like, and I want to lower the brightness a tad -- but only if I won't undo anything in the service menu by changing the user menu values.

Thanks again!

There are no problems with modifying the user menu values.

2 questions, i ran through UMR's great tweak guide last night, and i have to admit i didn't understand the Sharpness test on either Avia or the THX discs. I could see a difference in the THX one, but i didn't really see anything "coming into focus" more...i don't really know what i wanted to see out of that one. Can anyone better help me understand that test pattern? What is the setting on the 50" that you used?

Also the user settings (DCP-USER) are global for all inputs correct, or do i have to do all of those for each input?

Thanks again.

Chris

What you are trying to do is eliminate enhancement. Sharpness does not focus it is an enhancement circuit. The best things to look for are the white lines being too bright and ringing around vertical or horizontal lines.

Some of the DCP-USER settings are global others are not.

Folks: If there is anyone out there who has an extra copy of Avia with filters or wants to get rid of his...PM me. I would love to work on umr's tweaks.

UMR,

In the beginning of your post you wrote about all these edits:

*****
Edit - 12/29/03

Added more information on how to enter the service menu and make these changes.

Edit 12/30/03

Added step-by-step instructions.

Edit 12/31/03

Corrected error in instructions for SHF0. Removed warning about 480p players based on a comment from someone with a different player that had no problems. Added brightness level adjustment for inputs other than DVI to procedure. Added other service menu adjustments that people may find useful.

Edit - 1/2/04

Added some geometry adjustments for the more adventurous.

Edit - 1/5/04

Added reality and clarity settings for DRC to step-by-step procedure. Added reference to user manual.

Edit - 1/6/04

Added a section on GWIII best practices.

Edit - 1/29/04

Added more step at the end to press reset review settings.

Edit - 3/10/04

Removed comment about recommending Faroudja players and added Denon DVD-3800 to the recommended list. I currently prefer the 3800 to the XP30.

Edit - 3/28/04

Added a final step to explore the use of Cinema Black on the XBR version of these sets.

Edit - 5/20/04

Added some comments about PAL to best practices.
***

Where is the file with these changes? What are you referring to here? Thanks

RMMJ
The first post in his "Umr does GWIII XBR" is the updated file. That first post is the one that has been updated by him. Each poster has the ability to go back and update there post as opposed to adding another reply to the thread.

Bill

Whenever you see something like this:

Last edited by umr on 04-20-04 at 11:02 AM

at the very end of a post, it means that the author of that post edited that post. This is what UMR has done - he edits the first post and then notes in that post what the edits are so we can keep track.

Plus, If you learn something new It's good to know when & date the update. Then If you was on vacation or something you will notice the update or notice that you need to note If you made the update....

Absolute great stuff. Deserves to go bttt.

How long does it take to apply all of UMR's tweaks? I want to make sure I set enough time aside for them.

Thanks
Bill

Originally posted by Billnut
How long does it take to apply all of UMR's tweaks? I want to make sure I set enough time aside for them.

Thanks
Bill

30 minutes to several hours depending on the number of devices, the care you exercise and if you choose to tweak the gray scale.

UMR

When doing color decoder calibration, the yellow square is slightly lighter than red and other variations of red. This is when viewed with the red filter on Avia.

Seems like yellow should match as it contains red.

Is it suppose to be lighter?

Originally posted by JimP
UMR

When doing color decoder calibration, the yellow square is slightly lighter than red and other variations of red. This is when viewed with the red filter on Avia.

Seems like yellow should match as it contains red.

Is it suppose to be lighter?

No it should be the same intensity. I would use a different AXIS setting for the DVD player if you are going to deviate from the default RYR/RYB settings for AXIS 0.

Originally posted by umr
No it should be the same intensity. I would use a different AXIS setting for the DVD player if you are going to deviate from the default RYR/RYB settings for AXIS 0.

For some reason, all of the original axis settings exhibit some degree of red push. So I've been calibrating using filters, a Denon 5900 and avia for standard definition and DVE 1080i on a JVC 30K player for HD.

Just thought if the lighter yellow was an indication of one of the setting being amiss, I could work with it.

JimP,

I personally use different decoder settings for each device. You can do this if necessary with different AXIS settings followed by custom decoder adjustments. Green is the most difficult to adjust. You can try temporarily dropping the red and blue cuts and drives along with using the filter.

I use test patterns from each device including my Dish 501 to do this. This is the most accurate way to calibrate the decoder.

Most people lack HD test patterns and have devices that are not of the best quality. It is best just to set AXIS to 0 in that case. The odds of throwing other devices further off target is greater when you do not have access to accurate test patterns or test patterns from each device.

I'll try reducing blue and green cuts and drives to see how the yellow then compares.

Thanks for responding

Originally posted by umr
JimP,

I personally use different decoder settings for each device. You can do this if necessary with different AXIS settings followed by custom decoder adjustments. Green is the most difficult to adjust. You can try temporarily dropping the red and blue cuts and drives along with using the filter.

I use test patterns from each device including my Dish 501 to do this. This is the most accurate way to calibrate the decoder.

Most people lack HD test patterns and have devices that are not of the best quality. It is best just to set AXIS to 0 in that case. The odds of throwing other devices further off target is greater when you do not have access to accurate test patterns or test patterns from each device.

I have a GWIII 60" and Dish 811. That being said, I have a couple statements that maybe you or others might want to address.

1. DN still has not added the software upgrade for the 811 to lighten the
dark picture, was told it would be out at end of June.

2. Cabling, DVI, Component, SV etc. can make a very large difference on
final results obtained. (or changing cabling later)

3. DVD player etc and wether you have them direct or going through a
processor also plays a part in final obtained PQ.

4. We all see different and have different ambient light conditions.
I do not believe no two members who use your great tweaks will end
up with same settings.

For me I think waiting for the DN software and getting my cabling
squared away first, should come first.

Originally posted by samandbrady
I have a GWIII 60" and Dish 811. That being said, I have a couple statements that maybe you or others might want to address.

1. DN still has not added the software upgrade for the 811 to lighten the
dark picture, was told it would be out at end of June.

2. Cabling, DVI, Component, SV etc. can make a very large difference on
final results obtained. (or changing cabling later)

3. DVD player etc and wether you have them direct or going through a
processor also plays a part in final obtained PQ.

4. We all see different and have different ambient light conditions.
I do not believe no two members who use your great tweaks will end
up with same settings.

For me I think waiting for the DN software and getting my cabling
squared away first, should come first.

1. I am not up on the 811. The tweaks do not depend on a given devices software levels. They are what they are. A flawed device may not be correctable with service menu adjustments.

2. Cabling will not alter the tweaks. The output type will determine your settings. Read the recommendations for connections if you want to know what is usually the best.

3. Not sure why I care. My recommendations stay the same.

4. This is why I recommend using test patterns for your devices. (assuming you did not intend the meaning of your double negative sentence). I do not recommend setting device levels (picture/brightness) to fixed values.

I would calibrate the 811 as it is and revisit it later, but you can choose to wait if you like.

UMR

I've finished redoing grayscale and the color decoders for HD and SD via component inputs. From what I can tell, transferring those decoder settings to DVI seems to look pretty good.

I know that as these bulbs age they shift in color and grayscale will shift as well. As long as I can return to a good grayscale, will the color decoder settings ever need to be readjusted.(without the obvious exceptions of having repair work done on the TV, changing source devices,etc.)

As to brightness on the DVI input(which I normally use for satellite), would I do better using the brightness offset that I came up with using the JVC 30K(a component out device) or use the Denon 5900 on DVI to output a 1080I signal? I know these won't be the same as a signal from the sat receiver, but which would likely be closer?

JimP,

You should not need to change the color decoder settings unless you get different equipment.

Assuming the Denon outputs accurate levels I would use those settings for picture and brightness if they differ from the JVC. However, I would use the JVC for the HD color decoder settings. You can also check them if you get HDNet. I believe they output test patterns sometime in the morning.

umr

Found that using DVE on the Denon 5900, 1080 DVI out was about 9 units lighter on the brightness offset than the JVC on 1080i component. It looks much more accurate, just like you said. ;-)

For anyone who is interested in grayscale calibration, you might find it interesting to know that I had gotten an additional 6500K bulb to use for calibration while the other one I had was behind the set as a bias light. Noticed that they were not the same color. Using a color meter, the new bulb measured 7500K. Double check the package. It says 6500K on it. The original still measures 6500K. Both were purchased from the same online vendor that sells these for this purpose. Then there is the issue of gray cards. The latest iteration from kodak includes a steps scale (which would seem like the thing to do) Opening it, I noticed that it was a little pink. Check it out on a reflection densitometer, and sure enough it's a couple of units pink. Thought maybe it was the correct one and the other kodak card that I have was the one that was wrong. I go through all this to make the point that unless you have some way of verifying that the gray card and bulb is accurate, you may find yourself going to a lot of trouble to do a grayscale calibration and find that the results don't look quite right.

Hey I did all your tweaks except gray scale and have notice that now when I watch programing such as adult swim when the white letters come up on the black background the black like streaks into the white. I have only noticed this on some programing and am wondering if it is related to the broadcast or maybe my direct tivo since it is the only device that I notice this on. I can take some pictures if you would like to see what I am talking about.

Originally posted by LinkerX
Hey I did all your tweaks except gray scale and have notice that now when I watch programing such as adult swim when the white letters come up on the black background the black like streaks into the white. I have only noticed this on some programing and am wondering if it is related to the broadcast or maybe my direct tivo since it is the only device that I notice this on. I can take some pictures if you would like to see what I am talking about.

Sounds like the source. I have not seen this myself.

Originally posted by LinkerX
Hey I did all your tweaks except gray scale and have notice that now when I watch programing such as adult swim when the white letters come up on the black background the black like streaks into the white. I have only noticed this on some programing and am wondering if it is related to the broadcast or maybe my direct tivo since it is the only device that I notice this on. I can take some pictures if you would like to see what I am talking about.

It's the source -- happens on a few of my channels, too. The only difference I have to report is that I've noticed it on all my sets, though.

Ya I had a toshiba HDTV before and never had it happen on that one

JimP,

I am a little surprised a Kodak card was off. Do you think it had aged?

Accurate D65 bulbs are expensive. I have seen these Sol Source lamps and they look very good.

http://www.chromix.com/colorgear/shop/productdetail.cxsa?toolid=369

Here is another way to check gray scale that is a little pricey, but good.

http://www.avstandards.com/page2.html

UMR

The odd thing about the cards is that the 15 year old one is the one that measured correctly. It was the new step scale card that was off.

The TVS Pro looks like it would be worth while. As obsessive as I am about color and grayscale, I really need to find some ways to make it easier on myself.

Would these tweaks help reduce the vertical streaking?

Originally posted by brooster
Would these tweaks help reduce the vertical streaking?

It is not likely. There are other threads where that has been discussed.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3367897#post3367897

UMR,

In the Advanced Video section you state that Reality and Clarity should be set to one for a slight improvement in resolution.

I just received my 42" WEIII, June 04 build date. Setting both of those to one on my set has the opposite effect. The closer the numbers are to 1, the softer the picture.

Did you mean Reality 100, Clarity 1?

Thanks

RMMJ,

No I meant 1 and 1, but that only applies if you do all of the service menu tweaks. None of these adjustments are meant to be done alone.

Hi,

Does 8 + Enter in SM reset it to Factory Default Setting?

Originally posted by kbusam
Hi,

Does 8 + Enter in SM reset it to Factory Default Setting?

That is what it says. I would not do it unless someone has verified it does not cause problems.