kbusam,

By any chance, have you already done this?

UMR,

I did the step by step instructions on my new GWIII 60" set and when I turned the power off then on again so I could "sit back and rest because I earned it" the set went right back to the original fuzzy dull pro look. What did I do wrong?

King Nine,

I am not sure. Review the settings and see if they stuck.

Originally posted by King Nine
UMR,

I did the step by step instructions on my new GWIII 60" set and when I turned the power off then on again so I could "sit back and rest because I earned it" the set went right back to the original fuzzy dull pro look. What did I do wrong?

Any chance you skipped Step 81?

81. Press reset on your remote.

Not trying to insult anyone's intelligence, but this was a key step that many people were missing earlier on in this thread. Also, since you do this after you turn it back on (after exiting the SM), I interpreted your statement above as implying that you may not have done this.

This step makes all of your tweaks the new default settings. They don't just automatically apply even though you applied them in the SM.

Rich

JimP,

I hit 8 then the SM on top right said "RESET"

and then I hit Enter..all the lights turned Red ...i paniced and turned the tv off..( I should have let it take its time)

when i turned the TV on again..the TV went to "Initial Setup" and then I didnt have time to check the values in pro mode after the reset.. i will do today..

i was trying to reset as the PQ in Vivid has become very grainy after the tweaks. Pro looks good but still looks little dim..( may be i have to apply correctly)

Patriot ..looked very grainy in Vivid but T2 looked just fine still little contrasty and grainy..

does anyone have all values for Vivid mode for 480I?

Also...Contrast setting..in THX i cant get one big white box..at UPIC 63 i can still see the all the 8 boxes....but i can get one big white box when i turn my UBRT to 63 also but is that what i am supposded to do..

for USHP i cant tell any major difference..in both THX and Avia patterns..

Originally posted by kbusam
JimP,

I hit 8 then the SM on top right said "RESET"

and then I hit Enter..all the lights turned Red ...i paniced and turned the tv off..( I should have let it take its time)

when i turned the TV on again..the TV went to "Initial Setup" and then I didnt have time to check the values in pro mode after the reset.. i will do today..

i was trying to reset as the PQ in Vivid has become very grainy after the tweaks. Pro looks good but still looks little dim..( may be i have to apply correctly)

Patriot ..looked very grainy in Vivid but T2 looked just fine still little contrasty and grainy..

does anyone have all values for Vivid mode for 480I?

Also...Contrast setting..in THX i cant get one big white box..at UPIC 63 i can still see the all the 8 boxes....but i can get one big white box when i turn my UBRT to 63 also but is that what i am supposded to do..

for USHP i cant tell any major difference..in both THX and Avia patterns..

Using RESET is a bad idea. Turning the TV off while it is writing the values is even a worse idea.

You want to see all 8 boxes on THX optimizer when adjusting UPIC. UBRT is for setting the low level UPIC is for high picture level.

USHP is fairly subtle once your set is tweaked.

kbusam

Hey, we've all done stuff like this. Some just won't admit it. By the way, why wouldn't you expect it to return the set to the original factory settings. Perfectly logical.

As to all eight boxes showing up on the contrast test, do you have picture offset for each input? I've got the non xbr version so I'm not sure some of the adjustments transfer. What this offset does is allow you to further adjust color, hue, brightness and pic for each input individually. Its possible that with the overall contrast setting maxed out you still have leadway in the picture offset adjustment for that input. Also be sure that your brightness setting isn't too low as contrast(picture) and brightness are interactive.

I apologize if this has already been asked, but I have not had time to read all 9,873 pages of this thread. ;) Why apply the tweaks to Pro and not Vivid mode? I just received my 42" WEIII on Saturday, and OOTB, Vivid has the most detailed, 'watchable' picture. Pro was pretty bad. (SD and DVD)

RMMJ,

Pro mode in Sony TV's is setup to be the most accurate of the modes. Tweaking the others would require more work. You may prefer an enhanced picture instead of an accurate one. That is one of the reason the other modes exist. You can apply the tweaks to the other modes if you like it just will not be as accurate in the end.

Originally posted by samandnoah
Any chance you skipped Step 81?

81. Press reset on your remote.

Not trying to insult anyone's intelligence, but this was a key step that many people were missing earlier on in this thread. Also, since you do this after you turn it back on (after exiting the SM), I interpreted your statement above as implying that you may not have done this.

This step makes all of your tweaks the new default settings. They don't just automatically apply even though you applied them in the SM.

Rich

I did not skip it because I did not make it that far. I thought after step 59 told me to take a break I would see the differences. I'll definately do this. Also, do I understand that this has to be done in every video mode? Setting this on video 4 will not affect video 7?

I am going to do the tweaks on my 42" GWIII on Friday. I have AVIA but it sounds as though I need the THX patterns from Monsters, Inc. or Star Wars II also. Does anyone know if these patterns are on the rental DVDs from places like Blockbuster? After spending almost $40 on AVIA (and component cables, and audio cables, and a surge protector, and...) I would prefer not to buy anything else.

Originally posted by RMMJ
I am going to do the tweaks on my 42" GWIII on Friday. I have AVIA but it sounds as though I need the THX patterns from Monsters, Inc. or Star Wars II also. Does anyone know if these patterns are on the rental DVDs from places like Blockbuster? After spending almost $40 on AVIA (and component cables, and audio cables, and a surge protector, and...) I would prefer not to buy anything else.

The rental copies should be exactly the same as the copy you can buy. Also, the THX Optimizer is only used for the easily accessible Contrast and Brightness test patterns - AVIA should have the same type of test patterns, though they may not be as easy to access quickly. UMR can correct me if I am wrong, but I am guessing that he mentioned the THX Optimizer specifically because more people have a DVD with some variation of this Video optimizer than have AVIA/DVE.

Dolfo

I think it has to do with Avia's pattern for contrast is based on a CRT's blooming, which doesn't happen on the GWIII. The contrast(and brightness)adjustments for me is a lot easier with the THX optimizer.

I recommend THX Optimizer because I find it to be superior for these displays and because it is easily accessible. AVIA can work, but I prefer THX for setting contrast/picture levels.

Hey guys, was I correct in that the tweaks need to be done to every video input. i.e. doing the tweaks while in video 4 will not affect pro mode in video 7???

Before I start the tweaking tomorrow, I was wondering how much does it impact sharpness and crispness of the image compared to the image in Vivid mode? DVDs played on Vivid mode are fairly sharp, but I would still like a better rendering of detail and a crisper image. Should I expect much of a change?

Originally posted by King Nine
Hey guys, was I correct in that the tweaks need to be done to every video input. i.e. doing the tweaks while in video 4 will not affect pro mode in video 7???

That is what the procedure has you do. You must do each input type to get the full effect.

Originally posted by RMMJ
Before I start the tweaking tomorrow, I was wondering how much does it impact sharpness and crispness of the image compared to the image in Vivid mode? DVDs played on Vivid mode are fairly sharp, but I would still like a better rendering of detail and a crisper image. Should I expect much of a change?

Yes if you have a quality source.

Ok, I finished the tweaks and to me the picture is darker and fuzzier than Vivid mode (to be expected) and also standard mode. Is this what it was supposed to look like? It looks out of focus to me. I've switched back to standard mode. I like a crisp image but don't like dithering. I really don't know what I'm doing yet but I've turned the DNR to high and Mild mode on. It seems to give a good clean image with a touch of softness. I'm definately not supper happy with anything just yet.

Also, I noticed while watching rugrats with my children the picture would be crisp but when the shot would pan the kids faces would get blurry until the panning stoped. Is this just in that cartoon? Is there a setting for it? It was driving me nuts. It is how I came up with my settings above. They didn't solve it but made it seem not as bad because the image was a little softer when the panning stopped anyway.

King Nine,

Sounds like you like enhanced images. Enjoy.

Images loose detail while panning. It is the source that causes this.

I noticed last night in my new TV (70" XBR950 which replaced my 60") that certain of the Advanced picture adjustments, including the DRC settings, are blanked out. I was there to set Reality and Clarity to "1" per umr's recommendations. I also could not find Cinemotion. I had no problem accessing these in my original 60" set.

Is this a function of the newer build XBR's or is something amiss here?

Originally posted by umr
King Nine,

Sounds like you like enhanced images. Enjoy.

I do like crisp images if that is what it means. Is you tweaks supposed to make it look like I described? I'll live with my flaw since it makes my eyes happy. Is there any way to deepen the blacks with your tweeks and keep the crisp picture?

Images loose detail while panning. It is the source that causes this.

[COLOR=crimson]Is this the case on the other technology sets as well?

King Nine,

The instructions in this thread discuss how to accurately adjust your television. About 10% of people appear to take a path that is more personal. You can deviate from accurate if you wish, but it is very difficult to advise someone once they go down the path of personal preference. I have no way to discern what is correct for you beyond video standards.

The only way to deepen the blacks (change their level) on this TV is to add a neutral density filter to the light path. This involves taking the set apart. You can effect the gamma in the service menu by adjusting UGAM. This is the relationship between the input signal and the relative (percent) light output. Cinema Black on the GWIII XBR's does a similar thing by lowering the light output of the lamp.

Detail is generally lost to some extent while panning. The better resolution your display has the more obvious this becomes. The quality of the deinterlacer for video sources and the quality of the inverse telecine for film also plays a role.

King Nine,

You might also find better quality sources would improve your satisfaction. The Panasonic RP-62 shown in your profile is an OK player. Be sure you are using it as described in this link.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=&manufacturer=6&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0#PanasonicDVD-RP62

You might be more satisfied with a Denon DVD-3800 that has all the factory patches. You also need to carefully adjust each device in the service menu based on test patterns from it. I use broadcast test patterns from local channels on Dish to calibrate UBOF, UPOF, UCOF, UHOF and the color decoder for that device.

Adjusting the gamma is probably exactly what I'll need. I'm worried I didn't do the tweaks correctly because everything just looks out of focus to me now in pro mode. I'm still confused as to doing the tweaks to all inputs. It seems to affect promode accross the board. If you tweak video 7 will it or will it not affect pro mode in video 4 or any other input?

Also, I now have a momitsu DVD player. I hooked up the panasonic via componet inputs in progressive mode for fun last night. I didn't notice any real difference between it and the momitsu via DVI in 720P. The panasonic and Toshiba TV in my profile have now been moved to the other den in my house.

Originally posted by JBaumgart
I noticed last night in my new TV (70" XBR950 which replaced my 60") that certain of the Advanced picture adjustments, including the DRC settings, are blanked out. I was there to set Reality and Clarity to "1" per umr's recommendations. I also could not find Cinemotion. I had no problem accessing these in my original 60" set.

Is this a function of the newer build XBR's or is something amiss here?

I have no idea why but my 60" GWIII does that everyonce in a while. I hit reset on the remote and they popped back up as an option again. Does anyone know why they disappear? Also... UMR, can you describe what the reality and clarity on that grid does?

I noticed last night in my new TV (70" XBR950 which replaced my 60") that certain of the Advanced picture adjustments, including the DRC settings, are blanked out. I was there to set Reality and Clarity to "1" per umr's recommendations. I also could not find Cinemotion. I had no problem accessing these in my original 60" set.

Is this a function of the newer build XBR's or is something amiss here?

These settings are only available when viewing a 480i source. They will be blanked out when viewing any progressive material, or 1080i material.

Originally posted by King Nine
.... UMR, can you describe what the reality and clarity on that grid does?

Put an Avia sharpness or resolution pattern on your DVD player and see for yourself. You can also use the search function to find out more info.

For UMR or any member to answer....................

I have a 2 week old KF-60WE610, no UMR tweaks yet.

Just want to be sure set is OK. I am using (Standard) picture mode for all inputs currently. If I change brightness, contrast etc. on Video 7, it also changes all other inputs to same brightness, cont. etc.

On page 69 of OM it states the following" You can alter the Video menu settings (Picture, Brightness, color etc) for each MODE.

If I am reading correctly, it means if you use just one MODE on all inputs, any changes for one input affects all???

Originally posted by KC-Technerd
These settings are only available when viewing a 480i source. They will be blanked out when viewing any progressive material, or 1080i material.

Thanks for the tip. Assume then that once adjusted these settings only affect 480i sources, otherwise they would be available when watching digital signals via an OTA antenna, or DVD output to 480P via component(?)

Originally posted by KC-Technerd
These settings are only available when viewing a 480i source. They will be blanked out when viewing any progressive material, or 1080i material.

Thanks, I was watching a DVD with some friends tonight and it wasn't there again. I wanted to scream ( I didn't so as to not frighten my guest of course). Now it makes sense. Thanks again.

Originally posted by samandbrady
For UMR or any member to answer....................

I have a 2 week old KF-60WE610, no UMR tweaks yet.

Just want to be sure set is OK. I am using (Standard) picture mode for all inputs currently. If I change brightness, contrast etc. on Video 7, it also changes all other inputs to same brightness, cont. etc.

On page 69 of OM it states the following" You can alter the Video menu settings (Picture, Brightness, color etc) for each MODE.

If I am reading correctly, it means if you use just one MODE on all inputs, any changes for one input affects all???

I've been asking similar questions for a few days now and haven't got an answer. It seems to go across the board to me as well so I don't understand why all the inputs have to be calibrated too when doing the tweaks.

Originally posted by King Nine
I've been asking similar questions for a few days now and haven't got an answer. It seems to go across the board to me as well so I don't understand why all the inputs have to be calibrated too when doing the tweaks.

Because the SM works differently than the UM. Values are stored in a matrix that is a function of input type, format and mode. Just do it if you don't get it.

Thanks for the tip. Assume then that once adjusted these settings only affect 480i sources, otherwise they would be available when watching digital signals via an OTA antenna, or DVD output to 480P via component(?)

Thats correct. DRC only applies to 480-interlaced sources. DRC does not do anything for progressive or high definition sources.

for fun, i've tried messing with the pro settings to see how good the picture would get, but i've found, despite the fact that i use the mute-enter after each entry (and it says 'write at the top right of the screen), that once the tv is turned off, or changed to a different video source, that the settings are lossed. i guess i don't get it... but it won't save them....

Does it say "WRITE" in red and/or green?

yes, it says write in green top right of the screen

It has to go red to write the value. Green is only indicating that it is ready to write. Press "mute" followed by "enter" to save the value.

Also, after exiting SM (turn TV off and then back on), don't you have to highlight PRO mode in the UM and hit reset again for the SM tweaks to be implemented?

Originally posted by Dolfo
Also, after exiting SM (turn TV off and then back on), don't you have to highlight PRO mode in the UM and hit reset again for the SM tweaks to be implemented?

No. That only verifies the default settings for the UM (UPIC, UBRT...).

regardless of whether it's in Vivid, Neutral, or Pro, would you recommend changing the Axis from 2 to 0? are there any tweaks you would recommend for all of the settings?

I would recommend all of the SM tweaks for whatever picture mode you like the best. Take your pick of the ones you like or don't. AXIS 0 should give you the best colors short of a more complex color decoder calibration.

All, I just got my KDF-70xbr950 and things are fine. However, I notice that the Vivid setting provides the best blacks but at the sacrifice of lack of dark detail (can't see buttons or creases in a black shirt or jacket). I'm otherwise happy with the colors. Is there specific adjustments for this issue? Also, I notice the blacks "glow". This is probably just a problem with this technology, correct?

wisty,

Try using Cinema Black to reduce blacks glow. The high gamma of Vivid is incosistent with seeing dark details.

Thanks umr,

This feature is only available in PRO mode correct. If so, can PRO mode be setup to view like VIVID mode or are there inherently different settings that won't allow this.

PRO mode gamma should look like VIVID if you set UGAM to the same value for PRO that it has for VIVID. Changing gamma requires recalibration of picture and brightness levels for all inputs.

I have just discovered the GWIII XBR is not all digital for DVI. Take my word for this it is true. Strange that they claim otherwise in their literature.

Originally posted by umr
It has to go red to write the value. Green is only indicating that it is ready to write. Press "mute" followed by "enter" to save the value.

Your kidding right? I don't rember pressing enter after the mute button. I could swear when I went back into the SM the setttings were still there though. Maybe this is why I said my picture was still too dark and out of focus. The settings never took.

Originally posted by King Nine
Your kidding right? I don't rember pressing enter after the mute button. I could swear when I went back into the SM the setttings were still there though. Maybe this is why I said my picture was still too dark and out of focus. The settings never took.

Did you read the procedure? It says it should turn red as well. This is not a joke.

You might want to try SpellCheck as well.

UMR

Given your findings about the DVI input on the XBR, is there any reason to believe that the DVI input would look any better than the component inputs on the non xbr GWIII for HD? All other things being equal.

Originally posted by JimP
UMR

Given your findings about the DVI input on the XBR, is there any reason to believe that the DVI input would look any better than the component inputs on the non xbr GWIII for HD? All other things being equal.

Not that I know of, but generally ALL other things are not equal.

Originally posted by umr
I have just discovered the GWIII XBR is not all digital for DVI. Take my word for this it is true. Strange that they claim otherwise in their literature.

Does this apply to non XBR GWIII also?

Originally posted by wookatok
Does this apply to non XBR GWIII also?

It always did. Sony sales literature indicated the XBR was an exception, but the technical documentation indicates otherwise.

Maybe they are too lazy (or lack of resources) in changing their technical documentation. but there is no way of knowing it!

I have copies of the Sony technician training manual for all of the GWIII's along with detailed electrical schematics for all of these models. Which would you believe the engineers or the sales team?

Engineers, sales people will always give you the (oh yes it has that, its this years model). UMR, Does the manual have any Service menu updates or recalls ?

Originally posted by G.B.
Engineers, sales people will always give you the (oh yes it has that, its this years model). UMR, Does the manual have any Service menu updates or recalls ?

I am not sure what you are asking. There are all sorts of technical updates available from Sony. The lamp problem of course is an area of discussion.

UMR, This is the only sony update I have. http://ciscdb.sel.sony.com/cgi-bin/select-news.pl Mabe you have some other sights..I think one of the Sony reps gave me this.

UMR based on my readings color temp needs to be modified when using cinema black. In this mode the color temp increases about 600K. Did you notice this in your testing?

bberns22,

I did not do any testing with cinema black. I would not be surprised to find that it could shift gray scale. I prefer to see the shift in delta E. Degrees K is not as informative. Do you have accurate x and y readings to be able to calculated dE? Does the TV allow you to save different settings for cinema black?

I did most of the tweaks yesterday (nothing with gray scale). They definitely made a nice improvement. One area though where I'm still not satisfied: detail in dark scenes/objects. Dark shirts, etc. are still more of a featureless blob than detailed images. Is there an adjustment that would help with this specific aspect?

Thanks!

skvinson,

The things that impact this are:

- Accurate brightness level adjustment (this is critical).
- Gamma (UGAM) can strongly impact the detail visible in dark scenes. Low contrast ratio requires a lower gamma to avoid black crush. I would suggest targeting a gamma of 2.2.
- Source quality. You need to be sure the sources you are using do not crush blacks. Inexpensive or up-converting players frequently have these issues.

I was calibrating a flat panel LCD for a friend today with your very problem. She was using a Sony DAV as her source. The player/LCD combination had very poor black level performance with the player in interlaced mode. However, progressive was acceptable.

umr,

Just went through and changed the gamma. One thing - the adjustments go from 1-15 in whole number increments. I changed it from 0 to 2 (vs. 2.2). Was that the right thing to do?

Also, my dvd player does much better on interlaced. The brightness levels between the two modes is extreme. On progressive, I can't see the drop shadow behind the THX letters. Raising the brightness to maximum just begins to make it visible. Interlaced shows it clearly and allows me to adjust so it is just invisible.

BTW, it is a Pioneer DV-563A. I went with something cheap until the next generation comes out. I know you often recommend Denon's but they lack a key feature we use a lot: disc memory when you press stop (i.e., you can take out a disc, play others, put the first back in and it will resume from the spot you stopped at). If it meant a huge improvement, I would be willing to live without that feature, but I'm hoping something in the Fall will have great PQ and that feature.

Thanks again for your help!!

Originally posted by skvinson
umr,

Just went through and changed the gamma. One thing - the adjustments go from 1-15 in whole number increments. I changed it from 0 to 2 (vs. 2.2). Was that the right thing to do?...

You need a light meter, test disk and calculator to set gamma accurately. Going from 0 to 2 will increase gamma. I have not taken measurements, but 0 looked close to 2.2 to me. The difference between 0 and 2 should not be excessive. Vivid is 10 to 6, Standard ranges from 8 to 3 and Pro is 0 for all inputs.

You might be surprised how much better a Denon DVD-3800 can look than the Pioneer, but it does lack the disc memory feature. I prefer the great PQ myself, but it is a loss compared to my old Panasonic XP30. Look for a Silicon Image chip in your next generation player. I prefer them to Faroudja for film.

I am having a similar problem. I applied all the tweaks as listed, but my gamma while checking in Avias test pattern is much closer to 1.8 than 2.2 UMR could this be an issue with Avia or perhaps my DVD player (a cheap 150 dollar sony p scan).

I am currently ordering a denon 2900 so should I wait to see if this player fixes the problem?

Another question as of right now my contrast is set to 58 as suggested. Would it be wiser to lower my contrast to 48, which corrects the gamma problem, or will the contrast lower have a more negative effect on picture quality than incorrect gamma?

Another note I have tried adjusting UGAM in the SM, but it is set at 0 and raising only further increases my already to bright gamma setting.

Any suggestions on what to do?

umr,

So, are you saying the XP30 does an even better job than the 3800?

Originally posted by skvinson
umr,

So, are you saying the XP30 does an even better job than the 3800?

No. I am saying the XP30 had the feature you are talking about. It was nice to have, but I would not trade the PQ of the 3800 for it. I had both DVD players in my house for a while and it was really no comparison.

Originally posted by jflaa1
I am having a similar problem. I applied all the tweaks as listed, but my gamma while checking in Avias test pattern is much closer to 1.8 than 2.2 UMR could this be an issue with Avia or perhaps my DVD player (a cheap 150 dollar sony p scan).

I am currently ordering a denon 2900 so should I wait to see if this player fixes the problem?

Another question as of right now my contrast is set to 58 as suggested. Would it be wiser to lower my contrast to 48, which corrects the gamma problem, or will the contrast lower have a more negative effect on picture quality than incorrect gamma?

Another note I have tried adjusting UGAM in the SM, but it is set at 0 and raising only further increases my already to bright gamma setting.

Any suggestions on what to do?

The Avia pattern is not very accurate. You must use some type of measurement device to plot the illumination curve versus the input. I doubt your DVD player is having gamma problems. It is more likely to have level problems.

You cannot increase UGAM without recalibrating picture and brightness. The parameters are interactive. A gamma of 1.8 will look washed out if your set is operating with that low of gamma. Picture and brightness need to be set as described in the procedure.

I would experiment with the Sony DVD player in interlaced and progressive.

UMR

Can you either tell us how to calulate gamma or direct us to a link that does.

Thanks

Originally posted by JimP
UMR

Can you either tell us how to calulate gamma or direct us to a link that does.

Thanks

Here is my answer the last time you asked this.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3113766#post3113766

Thanks for jogging my memory.

Unfortunately, the math is over my head.

Originally posted by JimP
Thanks for jogging my memory.

Unfortunately, the math is over my head.

Oh. Here is a spreadsheet I just wrote that you might find more useful.

umr,

Do you have any firsthand experience with the Denon 2900? I'm looking around for the 3800. There are refurbished models listed at a few places, but they all say "Call" about whether they are in stock or not. The 2900 is easier to find. (I'm ready to give up the convenience of the disc memory feature for the ultimate PQ!)

skvinson,

I have no experience with that player, but it is similar. Look at the Shootout reviews for both. The 3800 with the patches will have fewer problems and a different frequency response. The issue with the 2900 is the 3:2 alternating flag issue. However, SACD support is nice.Here is a quote:

Unfortunately, the chip doesn't handle the 3-2 alternating progressive flag issue properly, and alternates every other frame between interlaced and progressive upsampling. This actually looks worse than just staying in interlaced mode (though only by a little) because of the constant flicker as the upsampling mode changes. Several scenes in Monster's Inc show this problem clearly, and since all recent Disney releases have the problem, we imagine there are many more movies that will not look their best in this area. Denon has looked into this issue and apparently they don't believe a firmware fix is possible for it. Still, we are glad that Denon took the time to fix the problem for a wide range of movies. Toy Story looks great on this player, as does Moulin Rouge and many other films that show the chroma bug clearly on other players.


http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all&type=DVD+Player&manufacturer=15&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0#DenonDVD-2900

I have a 2900. Given the proper source material its presentation on a GWIII can rival an off the air HDTV source.

However, Denon has announced a line of scaling players with DVI outputs. They will be released in the next few weeks and its clearly best to wait.

I just bought a Denon 2200 I didnt care to wait and I am glade I made the purchase. It looks light years better in PQ then my 3 yo toshiba cinima series dvd player did. I would save the DVI for a true HD-DVD format forget upconversion. Not to mention you cant pass up the price the 2200 is going for now it has pretty much everything the 2900 has at about half the cost.

As I understand it, the new players will use the Faroudja chip, because the Silicon Image chip doesn't upsample. I know some prefer the way the SI chip handles film material. There is also question how much difference a DVI player makes on the xbrs, and, since I use DVI from my satellite feed, I would have to buy a switcher. So many things to consider...

OK guys, please straighten me out. I'm trying to figure out what I am missing. I spent yesterday afternoon running through the basic Avia adjustments with the TV in the Pro mode (Brightness, Picture/Contrast, Color, Hue, & Sharpness). As per UMR's recommendations I set the Mild Mode off, the DRC palette to Reality & Clarity = 1. When I was all done, overall the picture looked really soft. So I started comparing various program material such as SD cable, SD satellite, & over-the-air HD, and then varying the various picture modes from Pro to Standard to Vivid. In order, the Vivid setting appeared to be the sharpest/most detailed, albeit way to bright, the Standard setting next, and last was the Pro setting. I then started tweaking the picture in the Vivid mode by significantly reducing the default picture/contrast setting, changing the color temp to neutral, reducing the color level somewhat, and also reducing the sharpness level, and voila, great looking picture with signficantly more apparent detail. The tweaked Pro mode setting now looks really bad in comparison. My only complaint is the blacks are now almost too black, and I'm sure are hiding some detail. (Is this what is referred to as black crush?) From everything I've been reading, from an overall picture accuracy aspect, this is probably nowhere close to where this TV should be set and nowhere close to even showing off this TV's capability. However, to me it looks a lot better than the extremely soft picture of the Pro mode on all three types of program material. I'm not trying to be a rebel, but I figure I must be really missing the boat on something.

Thanks for any feedback or comments.
Steve

StevieB,

What you are seeing is generally explained by two scenarios.

1. You like some level of enhancement.

2. You did the tweaks incorrectly.

You can verify the tweaks by going through the procedure a second time to make sure you really saved them. I have provided a method to obtain a picture that should represent the source accurately assuming you follow it.
About 10% seem to prefer an enhanced picture. You are free to setup your TV anyway you like.

Don't forget to hit the reset on the remote after you come back out of the service menu....?

After doing the tweaks, I did another "tweak" - I bought a used Denon 3800. It makes quite a difference over my Pioneer 563. The detail level in dark scenes/black objects is finally at a point where I am happy. This TV definitely deserves a quality dvd player.

Umr: Have you ever considered creating a PDF document from the first post where you mention all the tweaks? I would love to have this wealth of information in a pdf file due to the convenience of being in a file, printing, etc.

mallu2u,

Not really. I don't own this TV personally and posted these tweaks because people wanted them. The GWII has a pdf, but that is because one of the other forum members helped me put it together initially. It was not worth the time for me since I knew how to tweak my TV.

In that case, I shall put it in a pdf file, if you do not mind. I just need to figure out the software to do this. Is the first post updated for me to take it and make a pdf out of it?

A fellow forum member just sent me a pdf of the tweaks for the GWIII.

Thanks! And this is the most updated version, right? Now I shall print this out and get used to the SM for my XBR.

This is from the JVC D-ILA thread.

Originally posted by jacksonian
umr,
I want a digital set because I want the large screen size without the cabinet size of a CRT. I don't particularly care for DLP because I'm rainbow/eye strain sensitive. What do you like about the Grand Wegas? Are there any noticeable improvements coming on the GWIVs next month? How is the response time? I don't want motion blur with sports, I hate that about my LCD projector. Any help appreciated.

I have the same requirements. Sony LCD RPTV's are very fast, but they do filter the heck out of the signal in their default settings. You must go in the service menu to eliminate this and see what the panels can really do. JVC's D-ILA RPTV is a pixelated mess at this point in time. You do get a little image smearing on the Grand Wegas, but most of what you are seeing is in the source. I have a D-VHS deck that uses a higher bit rate. I see little to not blurring with 720p on it that is not in the source. Cinemotion can also blur the image for interlaced sources and must be turned off to get the best video performance. All of this is in the tweaks I have provided.

umr,
Is the service menu something I can access in the store? What would I adjust? Do I need to read the pdf you guys mentioned above?

Does anyone have any info on any improvements with the GWIVs?

Originally posted by jacksonian
umr,
Is the service menu something I can access in the store? What would I adjust? Do I need to read the pdf you guys mentioned above?

Does anyone have any info on any improvements with the GWIVs?

They may let you access the service menu, but I doubt you would have enough time to do everything necessary. Most stores will not let you do this though.

Read the pdf above or the first post in this thread. They are the same thing. It explains what must be done to get the best PQ with these TV's. Many people were suggesting I do this with the JVC as well, but I do not believe its performance justified the effort. I will revisit JVC when they have a 1080p version available.

There is no reliable information about how the GWIV's will compare to the GWIII's yet.

Whoa, that's a heavy first post. Thanks for all the tips.

I was reviewing my SM settings this weekend as I now have an HD PVR STB (1080I) connected with component cables.

I used the DVE test patterns with my DVD player (Sony NS725) which is also connected using component cables(480I), and eye balled various recorded HD material.

I like to keep both UPIC and UBRT set low (44-46 range). Using the PLUGE, with UBOF set at 31, I saw no above blacks. I boosted the UBOF to 63 on both inputs, voila dark details emerge. Any comments.

Also, one question is UBOF input/signal specific or just input specific?

UBOF is input type and signal specific.

I am going to go ahead and make a quick prediction.

I predict that the GW IV will in fact offer a small but noticable improvement over the GW III. My reasoning?

I have 2 reasons for my opinion:

(1) The GW IV will have a thinner lenticular screen. This must have been done for a reason and I believe that Sony has made some tweaks to this screen and made thinner which results in a slightly better contrast ratio and better blacks.

(2) I also note the mention of DCP in the GW IV spec sheet. This is referred to as a "digital component processor" which "fine tunes the signal to improve overall contrast and sharpness before the image is displayed.


So, I may be foolish but I honeslty believe those two changes are going to offer some improvements over the GW III. They surely won't be huge changes but I think they'll be noticable.

I like to keep both UPIC and UBRT set low (44-46 range). Using the PLUGE, with UBOF set at 31, I saw no above blacks. I boosted the UBOF to 63 on both inputs, voila dark details emerge. Any comments.

Dark details are what I'm primarily interested in on this set, so I'm going to try your settings and see how they compare. One question, what is "the PLUGE"? Is that on Avia? I'm borrowing a friend's disc, but am not totally familiar with it.

Thanks

Pluge is a below black level signal. It is useful for setting the brightness control. Pluge should not be visible. Unfortunately, all DVD players do not support pluge.

Is there a separate test pattern for pluge on discs like Avia, or are you referring to the normal test pattern used to set brightness? (For brightness, I have been using the THX dropshadow pattern in the THX Optimizers.)

Also, I assume from the screen-name that SonyWE610Owner, you did your UBOF and UPIC/UBRT settings on a non-xbr set. Is that the case? And if so, does anyone (umr?) have any thoughts on what effect the settings would have on an xbr set?

I've had a KF-50WE610, Jan 04 build since early Feb and have been blissfully ignorant of this TV's abilities until I found this forum. I thought I was done adjusting when I got through Avia. We settled on standard mode because Pro looked too cloudy and vivid looked to fake.

After reading through the entire tweak post, I wondered just how much better the display could get ? I nervously entered the service menu, but the step by step instructions made it easy once I started changing things.

WOW ! It's like we just got a new and improved TV. I wish I had a second none tweaked one so I could compare them side by side.

UMR, the tweaks have really improved this TV's display. Thanks for your effort and knowledge.

Originally posted by skvinson
Is there a separate test pattern for pluge on discs like Avia, or are you referring to the normal test pattern used to set brightness? (For brightness, I have been using the THX dropshadow pattern in the THX Optimizers.)

Also, I assume from the screen-name that SonyWE610Owner, you did your UBOF and UPIC/UBRT settings on a non-xbr set. Is that the case? And if so, does anyone (umr?) have any thoughts on what effect the settings would have on an xbr set?

The drop shadow on THX is a pluge test.

The first post in this thread describes what UPIC, UBRT and UBOF do. They do the same thing in an XBR and WE version of the Grand Wega. I would suggest you do the service menu tweaks if you want the best PQ from your XBR set.

Originally posted by number9
...
UMR, the tweaks have really improved this TV's display. Thanks for your effort and knowledge.

Your welcome.

It is a shame more people don't take advantage of these improvements.

umr, why doesn't Sony just set the Pro mode correctly at the factory? They could leave Standard as is for those who like that better, and Vivid for store owners who want the brightest possible display to sell more TV's.

So far I've been reluctant to enter the service menu, for fear of really messing things up permanently. I got a quote from someone locally who looks good on paper (judging just from his credentials as stated on his own web site). He would follow the tweaks and calibrate for $475, which to me is kind of outrageous as I have a fairly simple system as far as the number of components goes - just two antenna inputs and a DVD player. In any case I am waiting until I decide if I am going to get one of the new Denon DVD players, maybe the 3910. To me the audio is just as important as the video, and just going from what I've been reading this model should do a good job at both.

umr, your comments on these issues would be appreciated.

Sorry if this has been covered before but I've searched through this and other threads about this problem.

I applied UMR's tweaks when I got my 50" GWIII in June and things looked great (thanks again to UMR). I recently purchased an LG 7832 which is the Canadian equivalent of the Zenith 318 so of course I had to re-do the tweaks.

My only problem is with the picture/contrast. That's the test pattern with the 8 white squares. It appears as one large white square and no matter what I do, the 8 shades never appear.

I know that there is suppose to be no difference or very little between component and DVI connections but I'm using the DVI and have the player set to 1080i.

Despite the problem, I watched the superbit version of Resident Evil last night and the picture was great. Somehow though, I expected to be blown away with the PQ given the combination of the GWIII and the DVD player outputting a superbit source at 1080i over DVI. But that's another topic.

Any suggestions on what could be causing the picture/contrast problem?

Thanks...

It's possible that the Zenith DVD player is causing "white crush". Thats why you are not seeing the different shades of white. All the shades of white are crushed in one tone of white and thats it.

Are you using a DVI to HDMI conversion cable?

Originally posted by Dynot
...Any suggestions on what could be causing the picture/contrast problem?

Thanks...

As the previous post said. It is your DVI player. Most of these players are pretty horrible. I own an LG LST-3510A. The only reason I have it is that it was free and it saves space. It is not a great DVD player. I use a Denon DVD-3800 which is a great DVD player even though it is an analog player.

Originally posted by JBaumgart
umr, why doesn't Sony just set the Pro mode correctly at the factory? They could leave Standard as is for those who like that better, and Vivid for store owners who want the brightest possible display to sell more TV's.

So far I've been reluctant to enter the service menu, for fear of really messing things up permanently. I got a quote from someone locally who looks good on paper (judging just from his credentials as stated on his own web site). He would follow the tweaks and calibrate for $475, which to me is kind of outrageous as I have a fairly simple system as far as the number of components goes - just two antenna inputs and a DVD player. In any case I am waiting until I decide if I am going to get one of the new Denon DVD players, maybe the 3910. To me the audio is just as important as the video, and just going from what I've been reading this model should do a good job at both.

umr, your comments on these issues would be appreciated.

I would guess Sony sets these TV's up to appeal to the average consumer. Most people are not used to seeing unenhanced video. They like cartoon colors and the edgy look.

It is up to you if you enter the service menu, but it is difficult to mess things up very bad. If you can program a VCR you should be able to follow my instructions. However, the choice and risk are yours.

Originally posted by Tigerriot
Are you using a DVI to HDMI conversion cable?

I'm using the DVI cable that came with the player. The only thing the manual says is that it is "HDCP compliant". Would I not get a picture at all if it wasn't HDMI?

I will be trying the component cables tonight to see if that fixes the problem. I assume I have to re-do the tweaks.

Thanks

It's the DVD player man. I'd just stick with a good ol' component player. Either buy a good DVD player like the Denon 910 or Denon 2200 and use component cables or wait for a better DVI/HDMI player to come along. There is much speculation that the upcoming Panasonic S97 player will be the best upconverting player when it is released in the next couple months.

Tigerriot hit it on the nose. remember upscaling is done in your Sony t.v. Later we will have they say a new format for 1080 I. In UMR'S tweaks this has already been covered

Originally posted by Tigerriot
It's possible that the Zenith DVD player is causing "white crush". Thats why you are not seeing the different shades of white. All the shades of white are crushed in one tone of white and thats it.

Are you using a DVI to HDMI conversion cable?

I don't agree that the problem is with the DVD player (at least entirely). I see the same problem using my DVD player (Samsung HD931 via DVI), yet this problem was nonexistent using the same DVD player (and same DVI cable) when I had the Philips Cineos LCoS set (in other words, the contrast and brightness test patterns on the Cineos displayed just as they should). A lot of the white (and black) crush seems to be coming from the DVI input of the GWIII itself - the other inputs may or may not have the same problem.

Originally posted by Dolfo
I don't agree that the problem is with the DVD player (at least entirely). I see the same problem using my DVD player (Samsung HD931 via DVI), yet this problem was nonexistent using the same DVD player (and same DVI cable) when I had the Philips Cineos LCoS set (in other words, the contrast and brightness test patterns on the Cineos displayed just as they should). A lot of the white (and black) crush seems to be coming from the DVI input of the GWIII itself - the other inputs may or may not have the same problem.

Dolfo, I have the same problem with my GWIII (42"). It's not the DVD player since my Denon produced no white crush on my old Toshiba CRT HDTV. I'm using component out from the Denon to the GWIII. When the THX white blocks or the Avia contrast pattern is displayed on the GWIII, I see no distinction in the white areas no matter what settings I use for contrast in the UM. At some point I may brave the SM to see if I can fix this, but I'm not sure whether it's fixable or a flaw in my particular TV.

See my post here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3906998&highlight=Avia%2FTHX+no+help+for+white+level+adjustment#post 3906998) for background.

I'm curious - on lower quality SD material, do you ever see a greenish hue to white or light areas (blond hair, etc.)? I'm wondering if this is another symptom of the same problem with white crush.

Thanks,
Sean

I just want to add my thanks to umr. I recently purchased a KF-50WE610, hooked it up to a Bravo D2 using DVI and was not at all happy with the results. Dark scenes looked terrible. I finally got around to trying the umr tweaks and it is vastly improved. I was able to watch Underworld which is last night with absolutely no complaints. Good work umr!

Jarg

I have tried playing with some of the SM settings that UMR mentions in his tweaks (I am too afraid to touch any other areas of the SM because I don't know what any of the abbreviations stand for and what they might do) and the white/black crush problem does not go away.

I do also see some coloration in solid white areas of some SD broadcasts, but I attribute this more to DirecTV's compression than I do to the GWIII itself. I don't see this at all with OTA SD or HD (that's why I don't attribute this to crush problem).

Originally posted by Dolfo
I have tried playing with some of the SM settings that UMR mentions in his tweaks (I am too afraid to touch any other areas of the SM because I don't know what any of the abbreviations stand for and what they might do) and the white/black crush problem does not go away.

I do also see some coloration in solid white areas of some SD broadcasts, but I attribute this more to DirecTV's compression than I do to the GWIII itself. I don't see this at all with OTA SD or HD (that's why I don't attribute this to crush problem).

Interesting. That's actually disappointing - that implies your TV and mine are inherently flawed, as opposed to simply miscalibrated. (I forgot to mention that I also can't see any contrast distinction on the HDNet test pattern on my HDTivo over DVI, so it's definitely the TV and not just the component connections.)

I was however able to see some distinction on the white boxes when I connected my DVD player via S-Video and cranked the brightness way down. I wonder if there's some SM flag that needs to be flipped to fix this on component/DVI that is not set on our TV's for some reason?

-Sean

It is important to note that, although I see this problem with calibration disks via the DVI input, I still thoroughly enjoy everything I watch on this set - dark/white scenes lose some detail sometimes, but not enough for me to not be able to enjoy what I am watching. I am not sure if DLP has similar problems, but they have enough other problems for me to still consider this the best option for now.

I am going to give these tweaks a shot tonight on my 42WE610. I am a little scared that I will screw something up, but after reading comments of those who have tweaked their sets, it sounds like it is worth the risk. I do have a couple of questions that I would like to have cleared up before I start though...

1) I am a little confused about how many times I need to repeat different parts of the procedure for different settings (i.e. steps 22, 34, etc.). Do I need to repeat the setting changes for each input (dvd, cable, etc.), or do you assign the settings to all inputs with a certain resolution (i.e. 480p, 720p, etc)? I will have a hd cable box, a dvd player (just a cheap one...I don't even think it is progressive scan--connected with s-video cable), and an xbox (connected with component cables). Which setting changes will I need to repeat?

2) Step 55 (adjusting the gray scale) refers to information above-- I assume this is the information listed on the 5th and 6th pages of the pdf file? (i.e. I would change the RDRV value from 140 to 131 for my WE?)

I hope that makes sense. Thanks in advance for the help... and thanks umr for the tweaks. I can't wait to try them.

-chief

As long as you leave the cable box and the XBOX at the currently configured output resolution (720p or 1080i) you should only NEED to do the tweaks once per input. I did mine a couple of times for the HD inputs (once for PRO mode and then again for VIVID mode) so I could decide which of the modes I prefer. I ended up being one of "those people" who prefer the VIVID mode over the more accurate PRO mode.

If I allow the cable box to output all signal types (480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i) and let the television to do the scaling, then I would have to change the values for all signal types on the cable box input? It is better to let the television do the scaling, right?

Do you know th answer to the second question in my original post?

thanks.

Originally posted by chief17
If I allow the cable box to output all signal types (480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i) and let the television to do the scaling, then I would have to change the values for all signal types on the cable box input? It is better to let the television do the scaling, right?

Do you know th answer to the second question in my original post?

thanks.

Yes. You want the TV to do the scaling as described in the tweaks.

Your question about gray scale is incorrect. It is more complex than entering my drive and cut values. You should use a light meter and color filters. A Kodak gray card is also handy for comparison purposes. It is difficult to provide a simple step by step procedure to properly adjust gray scale.

Thanks umr. It sounds like from what you say in step 55 that using the cut and drive values you list is an option.

55. You can use a light meter to adjust your gray scale like I described above or you can try the user menu values I came up with for the XBR set or the service menu values for the WE. Be sure to record your original values before doing this. Your goal is to have an even color of gray at all levels. Sorry, but this is too complex to make an easy procedure for.

If I did use the drive and cut values you listed, would I see and improvement over my factory settings or would I be better off skipping the gray scale section all together? I want the best picture possible, but I don't want to mess with light meters and color filters. :D

Originally posted by chief17
Thanks umr. It sounds like from what you say in step 55 that using the cut and drive values you list is an option.

If I did use the drive and cut values you listed, would I see and improvement over my factory settings or would I be better off skipping the gray scale section all together? I want the best picture possible, but I don't want to mess with light meters and color filters. :D

You can always try using my values, but there are no guarantees it will be better. The best possible picture definitely includes gray scale. Skipping it is always an option.

This is all on a Sony KF-50WE610

Alright... I have a goofy problem I'm having here.

I finally got all my equipment, my DirecTV HD tuner, OTA antenna, etc... For a few days I was using my RF connection to view everything.. which wasn't a true HD signal. Last night, I picked up a DVI cable so I could finally get the OTA HD picture and watch a bit of the olympics. Hooked it up to my TV, flipped to the correct input and all I see are blotchy colors and pixelation. The best explanation I have seen to explain it is it's like a Van Gogh painting... or an interlacing problem.. something just isn't right.

I thought it might have been a HD problem, even though I was getting a 100% signal from WOWT, and flipped over a non-HD DirecTV channel... The same thing was happening. Blotchy colors, pixelation, etc...

I tried snapping a few pics and it gives some indication into what I'm seeing... Mind you, the blotchyness is a lot more noticeable when looking right at it, the picture doesn't show much... but I posted them on my website, so have a look and tell me what you think.

http://www.mazda6club.com/absolut/discoloration.jpg
http://www.mazda6club.com/absolut/discoloration1.jpg
http://www.mazda6club.com/absolut/discoloration2.jpg

I've been through all my picture settings with an AVIA DVD and still no change. Is it a bad DVI cable? It's a Monster DVI400.

Is there a setting I am missing here? Has anyone else had this problem?

I have not tried a component cable just yet... I will probably have to try it tonight after nothaving good luck with the DVI one.

That looks nothing like an interlace problem. I would guess it is a source problem.

Originally posted by umr
It always did. Sony sales literature indicated the XBR was an exception, but the technical documentation indicates otherwise.

Hi umr,

First of all, thanks for all of the helpful info and advice. I have been shipping for an HDTV for the past 3 months, including browsing on this forum, and it is in no small part because of all of your tweaks and info that I am going with the GWIII. :)

One question that I still have - if you recommend connecting both the DVD player and HDTV STB via component instead of DVI because of the quality of the components used (no pun intended), what do you recommend actually connecting via DVI?

Also, under you best practices, you recommend using composite rather than S-Video because of Sony's excellent comb filters. Are you referring to primarily the cases for someone who is connecting their satellite or cable box for SD, and not HD?

Thanks!

basselope,

I do not believe I recommended an input type for HD. It would be DVI if it is available. This assumes you have a DVI output available.

I would try composite for all SD sources be they satellite or cable boxes because SD is a composite source that requires the device to have a comb filter to output S-Video or component. The Sony is very likely to have a superior comb filter. I would experiment with this if it was me to see which is best though.

Thanks! And in the event that I put off my purchase for the GWIV's (which seems unlikely at this point given what I have read about them thus far) - are you also planning to do a tweaks guide for that as well? :)

basselope,
What have you "read" about the GWIVs? I havent heard much on them yet

Originally posted by mcwait
basselope,
What have you "read" about the GWIVs? I havent heard much on them yet

A good starting point would be here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=424771&highlight=gwiv

Also, you can simply do a forum search for "GWIV". :)

Originally posted by umr
basselope,

I do not believe I recommended an input type for HD. It would be DVI if it is available. This assumes you have a DVI output available.

I would try composite for all SD sources be they satellite or cable boxes because SD is a composite source that requires the device to have a comb filter to output S-Video or component. The Sony is very likely to have a superior comb filter. I would experiment with this if it was me to see which is best though.

i hate to disagree with umr (i'm on dangerous ground here i know) but digital satellite and digital cable both use mpeg-2 variants and are component (well 4:2:0), and so the set-top boxes start with component and create composite. The only reason composite might look better on your tv would be because the filtering to/from composite could remove some high frequency compression artifacts.

(If any of the sources were originally composite, the filtering to component prior to compression is done in the headend, not in your STB)

Of course, that's the theory, in the end you should do whatever you think looks best :)

--kim

I have tried both way's s-video & composite . For satellite in H D, DVI is best . S - video worked best for another S D satellite & then I go to a Super or standard S-VHS vcr . This vcr also is D-VHS & I use the i-link for that.. bottom line is after you get used to your set, try them both.
This T.V. does have the best comb filter I have ever worked with. S-video & composite are very close. In HD the same a little better in DVI but almost as good if you use R.G.B. cables.

Originally posted by freshtoast
i hate to disagree with umr (i'm on dangerous ground here i know) but digital satellite and digital cable both use mpeg-2 variants and are component (well 4:2:0), and so the set-top boxes start with component and create composite. The only reason composite might look better on your tv would be because the filtering to/from composite could remove some high frequency compression artifacts.

(If any of the sources were originally composite, the filtering to component prior to compression is done in the headend, not in your STB)

Of course, that's the theory, in the end you should do whatever you think looks best :)

--kim

What you said is true. The composite sources are transcoded to component when MPEG compression is involved. I always try all input types and pick the best myself. Many people skip over composite for S-Video which is generally a mistake on most low cost sources. Component, DVI and/or RGB if available are usually the best.

My comments as always apply to a fully tweaked set. Failure to do that will result in a substantial reduction in the performance of composite and S-Video inputs.

Originally posted by basselope
Thanks! And in the event that I put off my purchase for the GWIV's (which seems unlikely at this point given what I have read about them thus far) - are you also planning to do a tweaks guide for that as well? :)

I would wait for the new models. The XS model looks like a nice set to me.

I might do a tweaks guide if I get a chance to spend some time with them. Sony Style here in Houston is going to give me a call to come by when they get them in. I helped the New York Sony Style store set their GWII a while back.

Originally posted by umr
I would wait for the new models. The XS model looks like a nice set to me.

I might do a tweaks guide if I get a chance to spend some time with them. Sony Style here in Houston is going to give me a call to come by when they get them in. I helped the New York Sony Style store set their GWII a while back.

I'm glad you're thinking about continuing the good work that you've started. I must say it's really a great service to those that own the sets and those that are considering entering Wega World.

That said, I've seen your comments in the previous thread about why you think waiting for the GWIV is a good thing, and I'll take it into consideration. I really dislike the all-silver aesthetics of the WE/WF GWIV's that I've seen so far. I much prefer the look of the current models, and the 60" XS that I was considering appears it will be too wide for my media nook. It is about 64" wide, and from what I understand the XS will be 67" (!) wide.

But in the GWIV's favor is the built-in tuner, the different bulb settings, configurable settings for each input mode (finally), and the LCI for the XS models.

Decisions, decisions. :)

Originally posted by basselope

I really dislike the all-silver aesthetics of the WE/WF GWIV's that I've seen so far. I much prefer the look of the current models, and the 60" XS that I was considering appears it will be too wide for my media nook. It is about 64" wide, and from what I understand the XS will be 67" (!) wide.

Decisions, decisions. :)

FYI, it is only the WE that is all silver. The WF has an entirely different look to it. Mostly black front with some silver on the base from the pictures I've seen.

Basselope,
Past posts have indicated that their will be a 55" XS. According to the spec sheet it should be 62" wide. That is the one I am waiting for.

jeadams - I saw that also. I really am set on getting a 60" RPTV, however - especially with the price that I will be paying, I want to be certain that in a few years I will not be wishing I had opted for the larger screen.

...


Who am I kidding, I'll probably still end up wishing I had sprung for the 70" XBR. ;)

Originally posted by barnabas
FYI, it is only the WE that is all silver. The WF has an entirely different look to it. Mostly black front with some silver on the base from the pictures I've seen.

Do you have a link to the pictures? The ones I've seen so far on CNet have been all silver units. I suppose it's hard to tell for certain given that the WF picture is so small.

Maybe I'll wait a few weeks until the WF comes in to be sure.

The hunt continues...


:)

Originally posted by basselope
Do you have a link to the pictures? The ones I've seen so far on CNet have been all silver units. I suppose it's hard to tell for certain given that the WF picture is so small.

Maybe I'll wait a few weeks until the WF comes in to be sure.

The hunt continues...


:)

Here it is:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?postid=4126075&fullpage=1

Here's another picture.

I'm also waiting for the 60. I have one on "Special Order" (what-Ever!) at U.E. and they say about 4 wks till delivery. I hope,I hope.

cheers
Jeff

Wow - that looks MUCH better than the all-silver models. I'm going to wait to see it in person before I decide. Thanks for the pictures.

I have a 60WE610 and a white line about 1.5 pixels tall is displayed at the top and bottom of any letterbox formatted signal. Anyone have any ideas what is causing this and how to correct it?

Originally posted by weold
I have a 60WE610 and a white line about 1.5 pixels tall is displayed at the top and bottom of any letterbox formatted signal. Anyone have any ideas what is causing this and how to correct it?

I would try adjusting the overscan. It is an optical problem if that does not correct it.

thanks umr, I appreciate the insight. I am a n00b. Is this only available to adjust through the SM? If so, do you know which parameters should be tweaked?

I would first go into the user menu under the screen section. You can shift the image in zoom or wide zoom mode. SM overscan adjustment will probably not work if that does nothing other than move the image around.

The first post in this thread documents the MID parameters that can be used in the service menu to center your image. You should use test patterns to do this properly. THX Optimizer is the most commonly available one.

umr,

I'm not technically savvy enough to fully understand all your tweaks. I have one simple question;

I saw the Grand Wega WE620 today and was disappointed by the black levels produces (the blacks were various tones of gray, almost washed-out).

If I sit down and study your tweaks and implement them, how better would you say a GW4 would become in producing better black?

The reason why I ask this is that I am just about to leave it out of contention for a purchase (considering the Samsung dlp) and I want to make sure I know what this TV can do.

While we're all it, tweaked out Sony GW4 WE620 vs tweaked out Samsung HLP4663W ? Which one would be better in your opinion?

I thank you for your time,

François

François,

They will not impact the black levels at all on the WE620. I don't believe the 620 is a GWIV. You could add a neutral density filter that is not discussed in my tweaks that would reduce the black level. I ruled out one of these sets for my bedroom because I disliked the screen and the black levels.

I tend to dislike most DLP RPTV's that I have spent much time with. I also tend to dislike Samsung products in general. Rainbows and dithering drive me nuts. Whether the new HLP4663W would have these problems is unknown to me. I have not spent any time with the new models DLP RPTV's, but I would consider other brands over Samsung if it was me.

umr,

There is a 50inch XBR Grand Wega III on special right now.

This would be much better than a WE620 I gather?

Since you have so much experience with TV's, which one(s) would you recommend? It's obvious you like the GWIII, what about other models in the 42/26/50 inch range?

I'm almost thinking RPTV CRT is a safer option. Right now the opinions are so extremely polarized (this is the best! this is crap!) that I find early adopting a bit too much for my dad.

Thanks,

François

François,

If you want the best black levels the only choice is CRT at this time. I doubt you would be satisfied with any lamp based set unless you are willing to add a neutral density filter to lower the black levels. I believe almost all of them are setup with too much light output so they show well in the bright lighting conditions of showrooms.

The big problem with CRT's is you need to be careful about burn-in, have space and the ability to reduce the room lighting. To take advantage of low black levels you need to be able to have the room nearly dark. I would own one myself, but I have problems with burn-in (wife), space (wife) and room lighting (wife again).

I don't generally recommend any set because you need to choose what you like not what I like.

I do like the KDF-60XBR950, but that is larger than you want. The Hitachi CRT RPTV is nice at that size. I would also look at the new Mitsubishi DLP's. I have not seen one, but the comments appear to be favorable. I would also look at Mitsubishi CRT RPTV's who seems to be improving. All of these TV's will require some level of calibration to perform at their optimum.

I would avoid JVC D-ILA at this time, Samsung anything and Sony CRT RPTV's.

This is way off topic. You should PM me if you have more questions about these issues.

Originally posted by François L.
umr,

There is a 50inch XBR Grand Wega III on special right now.

This would be much better than a WE620 I gather?


Francois, did you mean a 60inch? I wasn't aware the 50inch came in XBR.

Originally posted by umr in GWIII Owners thread
Art,

You might want to try tweaking gamma on Pro mode if you want a punchier picture. A brown haze sounds like a gray scale problem. You could try improving the gray scale either by selecting a different color temperature or by adjusting the cuts and drives.

Thanks for the tip UMR, I've actually been in contact with SethS about doing an ISF calibration. I already bumped the gamma to 1, it's 3 for Standard mode. I must say that overall your tweaks definitely upped the sharpness and detail, it's just that brown haze that's got me down. First, I need to get a new DVD player though, since my current one isn't up to the task of feeding my new screen (see http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=440771). :(

Umr: As you already know, when XBR sees a HD signal (720p and 1080i), it sets the mode at 'full mode' and locks the option to change the modes...is there a way to not have the TV lock the mode? Can that lock be disabled in SM somehow?

Put your DVD to outpout signal for a 4:3 television, not a 16:9.

This way it will be unlocked for the screen size, the only drawback is that you will lost the anamorphic convertion.

I don't believe the TV has the capability of scaling anything other than a 480i or 480p signal. I believe you can scale a 480i/p widescreen input even if the DVD player is setup for 16:9. A DVD player that scales the output to 1080i or 720p would not offer this option.

Originally posted by Art_in_SJC
Francois, did you mean a 60inch? I wasn't aware the 50inch came in XBR.

Art

you know what, I may have been mistaken. Definitely a 50 inch but not an xbr I think, thanks for the heads-up.

François

Originally posted by umr
I don't believe the TV has the capability of scaling anything other than a 480i or 480p signal. I believe you can scale a 480i/p widescreen input even if the DVD player is setup for 16:9. A DVD player that scales the output to 1080i or 720p would not offer this option.

not sure what u mean...reason I want to unlock is some DVD Players that upscale, do not correctly upscale a 4:3 DVDs and as a result send 16:9 (at 720p or 1080i) for them as well, which is incorrect. I wanted to see if TV can then be used to manually override that and be correctly set at 4:3.

Originally posted by wmn
Put your DVD to outpout signal for a 4:3 television, not a 16:9.

This way it will be unlocked for the screen size, the only drawback is that you will lost the anamorphic convertion.

U cannot do that for upscaling players I guess since when they upscale, some incorrectly send the picture in 16:9 form which the TV shall correctly recognize as 16:9 and show accordingly.

Just curious if anybody has tried them on the 42/50WE620 (or WE655 equivalent). I know the WE655 has more features but I think the main "engine" should be the same.

I'm a bit nervous about trying them out given the model change.

My 50WE620 has a slight geometry problem that is most noteable when playing 2.35:1 DVDs. The black bar across the top is about 1/4" wider on the left hand side. The bottom bar is okay. Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

I have not tried them on a WE620, but the values in the service manual appear to be the same as the WE610. Your geometry problem is optical and would require a service call to attempt a fix.

Thanks umr.

Do you feel that amount of variation is uncommon for these type of sets? I checked out the display unit at the store (using the DVE test pattern) and it is arched in the middle so not sure exchanging for that one is an improvement.

BTW: Just to echo others, thanks so much for sharing both your knowledge and time contibuting on this site!!

The problem does appear to be fairly common. Whether an exchange is a good idea is your call.

UMR

In DCP-ADJ1, is CBOF and CROF color offsets to grayscale that are input and resolution dependant.

If so, then this gets around the global grayscale adjustments.

Originally posted by JimP
UMR

In DCP-ADJ1, is CBOF and CROF color offsets to grayscale that are input and resolution dependant.

If so, then this gets around the global grayscale adjustments.

Those are not gray scale offsets. They are offsets for the CB and CR signals. All of the signals in the TV are converted to YCbCr. I would not touch those settings because they will be very interactive with the color presentation of the TV and should be setup to properly convert to that signal type.

UMR

Thanks for your response.

Do you know of any menu offset items to adjust grayscale based on input and resolution?

Or as an alternative, a way to redefine what constitutes the color temperature settings in the user menu by changes in the service menu.

When I have grayscale adjusted correctly in 1080i on component input, 480i looks green on svideo and DVI and 1080i on DVI is a little blue.

Just trying to find a workaround to have a way to correct for these differences.

UMR,

Once again I've had bulb related service on my GWIII. The service rep said he changed the Lamp engine and the lamp.

Any way this type of service could affect the PQ?

Viewing HD shows via my component connected SA8000HD STB, I now find that the set appears grainy.

Should I consider a tweak walkthru or am I confused?

Eyesight issues aside any thoughts, insights or comments?

Thanx.

SonyWE610Owner,

Changing the lamp engine is a big deal. I would walk through the tweaks again.

I have an 8000HD as well. Try and record HDNet's test patterns to help you calibrate your TV. These patterns are not adequate to set the brightness correctly. You will need to base that on broadcasts as well.

Thanx UMR,

Unfortunately, I'm in Canada no HDNET.
I'll use DVE, various sources and personal taste.

Originally posted by SonyWE610Owner
Thanx UMR,

Unfortunately, I'm in Canada no HDNET.
I'll use DVE, various sources and personal taste.

That is likely to be a problem. Mine deviates significantly from the video standard levels.

Yeah, there's quite a variance between my DVD player , the 8000HD HD channels and the SD channels.

As we do not have passthru yet, I'll do what I can for now comparing DVD 480i DVE and 480i from the 8000HD.

Once passthru is enabled I'll have an easier time checking 1080i and 720P from the 8000HD. In any case at this point a UMR tweaked GWIII has excellent PQ.

After nearly 12 months and no problems with my KF50WE610, this weekend it suddenly began exhibiting sever ghosting, flickering and color shifting in 720P mode. I almost looks like some sort of electronic interference as there is a faint zig-zag pattern on 1/3 of the screen that "jiggles". (excuse my tech-speak) :)

This is ONLY present via DVI @ 720P (component looks fine) To make sure it was not the HTPC which is connected to the DVI port, I swapped video cards (ATI vs. Nvidia) and it displayed the same behaviour. I then plugged my Zenith SAT520 into the DVI port and switched over the HD ESPN which is 720P, same behavior. Locking the SAT520 in 720P mode and moving thru all stations has the same result. Any signal that is 480I/P or 1080I does NOT exhibit this behavior.

Before I have a sevice tech look at this, 1.) Does anyone have any thoughts or experience with this problem 2.) Should I reset the service menu to its defaults (I applied most, if not all of UMR's tweaks) and how to do it?

Thanks in advance for any assistance....

I'll admit it - I'm not brave enough to be the first to try it. I'm not even sure I'd be brave enough to ever try it, but I'm curious....

Has anyone tried any filter tweaks on a GWIII to improve black level?

Originally posted by jscuderi
...Has anyone tried any filter tweaks on a GWIII to improve black level?

Several people have installed Kodak neutral density filters successfully in these sets.

Does anyone have any sort of guide to installing a ND filter on these sets? I would love to give this a try at some point but really need a guide so I don't totally screw things up!

Thanks,

HDD

Originally posted by HardDrive
Does anyone have any sort of guide to installing a ND filter on these sets? I would love to give this a try at some point but really need a guide so I don't totally screw things up!

Thanks,

HDD

Not that I have seen. People have removed the top off the set and inserted the filter. Some have taped it in place others have put it in a cardboard frame.

I just purchased a KF42WE620 here in Canada. I tried out the UMR tweaks, and seemed to get an improvement in picture quality, but the blacks were still quite distracting. There was a sharp dropoff into shadows, with rapid loss of detail, and with the darkest areas appearing inky and very unnatural.

I lived with that for a few days, and then thought I'd should try some more testing. One setting UBOF, under DCPUser, seemed to be mentioned a few times in the forum (mostly with DVI connection, which I don't have). When I cranked the setting up from 35 to its maximum of 63, I found a massive improvement in black detail.

I later ran the THX logo test from Attack of the Clones, and dropped my brightness down a few notches to nail the test.

The whites currently are very bright, but scenes with bright lights appear natural (like staring into a flashlight).

I experimented a bit with UPOF as well, raising it 10 points, but I couldn't see a significant difference. I dropped the Picture setting a bit, to dull the whites a bit. Overall though, I was very impressed with the overall result.

I am curious as to why UBOF in particular did this. I think some posts referred to lowering this setting, but I set if very high. The main test I did was the Amidala sleeping scene in Attack of the Clones. There was one scene where I could barely recognize a face until I turned UBOF right up

candureactor,

You probably have a DVD player that is outputting levels that are below 0 IRE.

candureactor

UPOF and UBOF are input and resolution specific offsets to the user picture and brightness settings. Whereas picture and brightness in the user menu are global for that picture mode.

In other words, if in the user menu you have brightness set too low, then compensate by raising UBOF in the service menu, you're back to where you started for that input and resolution. Unfortunately, you're likely to have your other inputs/resolution too dark until you adjust those too.

It would be better to return your offset to their original position, make your initial adjustments in the user menu, then tweak your other inputs through the offsets in the service menu to match the one that you setup your brightness and picture.

Be sure that when you exit your service menu to go to the mode in the user menu (highlighting pro,standard or vivid depending on which mode you're adjusting)and then press the reset button on the remote control so that you can see what the net effect of your adjustments are.

Brighness can vary depending on if your DVD player running the test DVD is outputting 0 or 7.5 for its black level. In some cases, you can adjust this in your DVD player. So its possible to use the DVD player at one brightness level and other inputs such as cable or satellite to be off.

Even considering this, you really should adjust the picture to your likeing.

I think I'm getting a better sense of brightness and picture. I was going to go back to customize each output for UBOF, but I was quite surprised at how the same settings improved things across all inputs. Both DVD (Sony DVP-NC675P) and cable box (SA 8000HD) were improved. I checked the black level change option on the DVD player, but I would have to lose progressive output, and I found progressive clearly better when I tried the changes.

Basically, I did the UMR changes originally and they seemed to do well on the KF42WE620 set. The brightness and picture settings were left at their defaults, which were really bad. I set them higher, based on some recommendations I read in this thread, but I could not get rid of the severe distracting factor of murky, inky, indistinct blacks and heavy shadows on several sources. It was ony during the THX and Attack of the Clones test where I hit upon UBOF and UPOF as making clear improvements.

Still I was a bit puzzled-- if I set UBOF at max (63), and I reset Pro setting after saving the changes, the Brightness setting is back close to the middle. Is there a 1:1 relationship, or is it scaled or skewed somewhat? I thought I did push the Brightness up quite high in the User menu early on in tesing, but I'm quite sure I didn't get the same effects as when I made the changes in the service menu.

In any case, I retested a number of sources and found most of the distractions in blacks were gone (and in fact, the picture overall seemed vastly better in some cases). The anamorphic version of The English Patient I noticed was vastly improved in the dark cave, night, and train scenes. I just rented Man on Fire on DVD, and I found a lot of shadows and dark scenes-- so maybe that's the source or the way it's supposed to be. In any case, I'm much happier now, except that I think the calibration process is a necessary burden-- and I'm a little alarmed at how difficult this might be for the average purchaser.

UBOF does not have the same scale adjustment than the brightness setting in the user menu.

It seem to be a subset of the brightness level. If you put the brightness level to low you will not be able to put back the correct level only with the UBOF setting.

The GWIII does not allow setting for each input in the user menu, but UBOF is independent for each input type and that would have allowed black level for the equipment connected to different inputs to be equalized.

Spent some time last night in the Service Menu for the new GWIV KF-50WE620. Applied the UMR tweaks. They do seem to improve the PQ in pro mode. But I still found Standard mode to be better. Specifically it was sharper. before the UMR tweaks the pro mode was blurry and colours muted. The tweaks improved teh colours and blacks, but it still remined blurry compared to standard.

I will will be viewing mostly in standard mode anyways. I like the fact that I can adjust the default video settings for picture, brightness, hue, colour and sharpness. I also shifted the image a few point in the vertical and horizontal to center the image. Didn't play with the horizonal or vertical size to fix the overscan because I didn't want to muck up the aspect ratio. I also noticed that the screen has a bit of a tilt on it. If anyone know how I can fix this, let me know. It's not noticable unless you have a grid test pattern on.

Overall it is easy to adjust the Brightness, colour and Hue (with blue filter). I usually find it difficult to adjust Contrast and Sharpness. Any recommendations would be appreciated. I have the THX calibration on some DVD's as well as The Ultimate DVD that has some calibration test.

I found with the umr's tweak that the SHF0 setting should be left at deffault for all input/resolution:

13 for tv/video/component 480p inputs, 14 for component 480i and 15 for hd 1080i/720p.

That give a better deep 3d picture, very visible on still frame, even if a test pattern seems to have an higher resolution response.

To improve sharpness in pro mode, set the SHOF setting to the same value than the standard mode.

For SHF0 and SHOF different memory configuration can, or exist, for the normal & wide mode and also Mild On/Off.

SHOF and SHF0 settings are in the service menu DCP-ADJ2, item 0 and 1.

I've appeared to have misplaced my saved std. values :(

ne1 have the GWIII defaults for standard SHFO,MVLS and MHLC for
all modes (480i/480p/720p/1080i) handy?

Hi UMR-

I just got a 42WE655 and I plan on trying the GWIII tweaks soon. I've been playing with the user settings constantly the last few days and I think I have adjusted the "standard" mode the best possible. Question is will the standard mode change at all if I do the UM tweaks...assuming I am sure to have the mode set to Pro for each input and resolution. From reading your instructions it sounds like the SM settings apply only to the mode/input/resolution that is in use at the time I make and save the changes.

Also, any suggestion on what resolution to feed my SD cable channels in? I have the Moto 6200 and I can set it to output SD channels as 480i, 480p, or 1080i/720p (depending on which one I use for HD content). I'm currently running HD at 720P and SD at 480i.

Has anyone come up with a good method for setting the color decoder, either by shutting down the individual RGB colors, or by using grayscale settings and filters to accomplish the same thing?

I have been able to get a good setting on red using filters alone, which has dramatically improved color quality, but I believe I'm getting alot of blue bleed through my green filters, even after stacking several filters together, and I get some movie scenes that seem to emphasize green too much.

TH3_FRB,

A few of the adjustments apply accross all picture modes. These would include geometry and gray scale. You should be OK with your Standard mode for the most part. I use 480i on my 8000HD for SD cable and pass-through for HD.

Thanks for the quick reply! I don't plan to touch geometry or gray scale...just the resolution, brightness, picture, and color items. I'm not completely satisfied with my standard mode but I'd like to be able to compare it to the tweaked pro mode.

The SD on this set is very nice (480i over component). Although it also shows the varying quality of different channels. Clean analog SD channels look great, poor SD channels are marginal...mostly lots of noise. I wish the Moto box would pass HD native...I have to pick 1080i or 720p and it's several stept to switch back and forth so I'll just select one and stick with it.

I kmow this is the GWIII thread, but the GWIV seems to be very similar so I thought I'd post here since there is so much experience to draw from. I decided to run through the THX optimizer tonight to see what kind of improvements I can get. I just have't been able to set aside enough time to do UMR's tweaks yet. I've been playing with the user settings every night since I got the set last Friday and arrived at some settings that seem fairly good using standard mode. After going through the tests I ended up with essentially the same settings that I had from trial and error:

Standard mode
Picture - max
brightness - 30
color - 45
Hue - 0
sharpness - 45
temp - warm

The settings on the GWIV range from min/0 to 62 with the final notch being "max". I guess I am a little surprised at these settings. No matter how high I cranked the picture setting, the 4 shades of white were still visible...I'd estimate I could go another 5-10 notches above the "max" before they would merge into one solid block. For color, I couldn't really pick out a single point where the red started to "bleed" so I used a relatively high setting that made the colors fairly vibrant and saturated. I guess I have this idea in my head that adjusting the settings towards the high end of the range is wrong for some reason...but it's what I get from following the tests. I really never saw the lines on the sharpness test become overly enhanced either but again, it just didn't seem right to leave it set at the max...this may have something to do with the relatively soft picture to begin with.

On the 16-9 aspect ratio set-up screen the outter-most box is centered with about 1/2 inch space from the edge of the screen top to bottom, but is about 1/2" off-center to the left. The left edge of the box is right at the edge of the screen leaving 1/2-3/4" space on the right side. I assume I can tweak this in the SM.

I'm fairly happy with the colors and overall brightness of the set but my two main complaints haven't changed...the picture is still too soft and the blacks aren't dark enough. Next step is to do UMR's tweaks and see if that doesn't help. As for the picture/contrast...is it possible to push the max even higher in the SM since it looks like I still have room? I'd say I'll be looking into a neutral density filter too since the bright blacks are kind of driving me crazy.

I want to tweak my 60" XBR950 but I need some encouragement. I'm pretty good with computers and electronics, so I think I could do it, but I currently don't have a progressive scan DVD player. So I'm not even sure I should do it yet.

Can I just go and make all the adjustments exactly as UMR detailed and end up with a better quality picture? I don't have D-VHS or Avia or any of that stuff. I do have a THX Optimizer DVD that I could use on my non-progressive scan DVD player, but I don't know if that's enough. But I do have HD cable and watch HDTV, and I play a lot of Xbox, which outputs a progressive signal for most games.

Any other newbies out there who were once in my position who did the tweaks? Should I go for it or just be happy with the OOTB picture?

I want to tweak my 60" XBR950 but I need some encouragement. I'm pretty good with computers and electronics, so I think I could do it, but I currently don't have a progressive scan DVD player. So I'm not even sure I should do it yet. You live in Hollywood, California.... you bought a 60" XRB..... and you DON'T have a progressive scan DVD player? :)

When I got my 50"WE, I had never heard of a service menu and I had been playing with computers since the Commodore 64. UMR made the process about as painless as baking cookies with his instructions. Just follow the directions on the PDF file and record your defaults and you will do fine. Oh, did I mention you should RECORD your defaults before changing them??

Originally posted by Datalux
You live in Hollywood, California.... you bought a 60" XRB..... and you DON'T have a progressive scan DVD player? :)

When I got my 50"WE, I had never heard of a service menu and I had been playing with computers since the Commodore 64. UMR made the process about as painless as baking cookies with his instructions. Just follow the directions on the PDF file and record your defaults and you will do fine. Oh, did I mention you should RECORD your defaults before changing them??

Did I mention that I work on the movies as well? How pathetic is that? I really need to get one of those nice Denon DVD players, but I've spent so much on my TV, my speakers, and receiver that I had to take a step back and breathe. Plus, I'm reluctant to spend too much on a DVD player now when HD-DVD will make it all obsolete in a couple years.

The good news is that I actually did the tweaks last night and they turned out really well. It was much easier than I thought it would be, thanks to UMR's step-by-step instructions. I noticed a nice increase in picture quality, and I can now watch Pro mode without the picture being so dang soft. I watched some scenes from DVD's and it makes my old Pioneer DVD player look pretty darn good.

umr....question for you, since I know you still check in on this thread, and I didn't find it feasible to start a new thread just for this...

from your knowlege of these sets, do you find it worth the extra $$ (in my case about $1,100) to go with the KDF XBR 60" over the 60" GWIII? I can get a killer price right now on the latter, but want to be very satisfied w/my choice of course. I'm talking more in terms of pic quality rather than other features like inputs and internal tuners.

Thanks.

domer67,

I would not purchase a WE610 so an XBR950 Grand Wega is worth it in my book. I would, however, give the latest Panasonic and Mistubishi DLP's a careful look. I have not had a chance to run them through my tests yet, but they look to be very credible offerings.

thanks for the input umr....can you PM me and tell me specifics why you would steer clear of the WE610?

UMR-

I notice you've suggested the Mits and Panny DLP's being worth a look several times...any particular reason you leave Toshiba out? I've been more impressed with the Tosh myself.

Sony GW content - is it normal, in your experience, for the picture and color settings to be rather high (or maxed out) after running through one of the calibration discs? I listed my calibrated settings a few posts up...I think I even have more room to push the picture setting higher if it were possible in the SM.

Originally posted by umr
domer67,

I would not purchase a WE610 so an XBR950 Grand Wega is worth it in my book. I would, however, give the latest Panasonic and Mistubishi DLP's a careful look. I have not had a chance to run them through my tests yet, but they look to be very credible offerings.

Originally posted by domer67
thanks for the input umr....can you PM me and tell me specifics why you would steer clear of the WE610?

I don't like the screen material. It generates an annoying shimmering effect that the XBR avoids. I also do not like the anti-reflection coating on the WE610's. Others of course may disagree.

Originally posted by TH3_FRB
UMR-

I notice you've suggested the Mits and Panny DLP's being worth a look several times...any particular reason you leave Toshiba out? I've been more impressed with the Tosh myself.

Sony GW content - is it normal, in your experience, for the picture and color settings to be rather high (or maxed out) after running through one of the calibration discs? I listed my calibrated settings a few posts up...I think I even have more room to push the picture setting higher if it were possible in the SM.

I have not seen the Tosh. I don'd comment I what I have not seen.

Picture is normally maxed out on the GW. Pushing it in the SM can be useful.

Color is normally near the middle.

Thanks UMR-

I was just curious if there was something about the Tosh that you didn't like...but you haven't seen it yet...fair enough.

So does UPIC in the SM provide a wider range of adjustment then the UM? I'm guessing that I need to extend the picture setting to what would be about 70-75 in the UM (max is 63).

Originally posted by umr
I have not seen the Tosh. I don'd comment I what I have not seen.

Picture is normally maxed out on the GW. Pushing it in the SM can be useful.

Color is normally near the middle.

Gamma adjustments would also help get more contrast...if this is what you are looking for TH3_FRB. Someone on one of the thread was trying to get all the white to bloom or white crush. This is hard to do on L.C.D. TV , but it is a good thing that makes L.C.D. a good undistorted picture. CRT'S on old or picture tubes, this is easy to do by the way they biased them. But set that high is to high & out of adjustment....

Yeah...I need more contrast...according to the THX optimizer tests. I have the picture setting maxed out and can still clearly make out all the shades of white...not even close to blending together.

Originally posted by G.B.
Gamma adjustments would also help get more contrast...if this is what you are looking for TH3_FRB. Someone on one of the thread was trying to get all the white to bloom or white crush. This is hard to do on L.C.D. TV , but it is a good thing that makes L.C.D. a good undistorted picture. CRT'S on old or picture tubes, this is easy to do by the way they biased them. But set that high is to high & out of adjustment....

UBOF should be able to do the job. UPIC is the same as the user menu setting.

UMR

I've been thinking about getting my Denon 5900 SDI modified and getting a SDI modified DIVO HD+ to feed my GWIII the set's native resolution of 788. (in case you're wondering why, its to get rid of the occassional macroblocking problem with the 5900)

Would the GWIII be able to accept a 788p resolution input? (or whatever the native resolution )

JimP,

There is a fellow on the DVD Player forum who claims to have done this with his Momitsu. I would contact him for more guidance on feeding the set 788p.

I would suggest you try 480p over component out of the HD+ that really should be best assuming you have tweaked the service menu. All Grand Wegas convert DVI to analog component and the conversion of component to RGB DVI is lossy. I also doubt the scaler in the HD+ will be significantly better than that in your TV.

UMR - I seem to remember you posting about the new service manual you have for the GWIV and stating that tweaking the new sets might not be possible as we know it. Looks like you are right.

I'm sad to report that UMR's tweaks can not be applied to the new GWIV. I just sat down to apply the tweaks and found the service menu to be completely different. Full details in the GWIV owner's thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4424126#post4424126). Basically, all categories are different and all (with one exception) items are different.

:mad:

Originally posted by TH3_FRB
UMR - I seem to remember you posting about the new service manual you have for the GWIV and stating that tweaking the new sets might not be possible as we know it. Looks like you are right.

I'm sad to report that UMR's tweaks can not be applied to the new GWIV. I just sat down to apply the tweaks and found the service menu to be completely different. Full details in the GWIV owner's thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4424126#post4424126). Basically, all categories are different and all (with one exception) items are different.

:mad:

I guess we should boycott the GWIV unless Sony releases info on how to tweak them.

Already too late for me. But I don't plan on keeping it more then 3-4 month anyway...never did.

Originally posted by umr
I guess we should boycott the GWIV unless Sony releases info on how to tweak them.

Originally posted by vidkidd
Be careful with MID1. It can cause havoc on ALL inputs. If you need to tweak overscan on a specific input, I recommend:
(standard you goof up disclaimer... its your fault its your set)

MID2 is input specific for 480i inputs
RHPL - Adjusts Horizontal display Position for 480i
RHSL - Adjusts Horizontal display size for 480i
replace H with V for vertical

MID4 is input specifc for 720P / 1080i devices
DHPL - Adjusts Horizontal display Position for 720p/1080i
DHSL - Adjusts Horizontal display Size for 720p/1080i
replace H with V for vertical

For a bit more definition:
MDHP - Horizontal Position of Display Area Window
MDHS - Horozontal Size of Display Area Window
MDHO - Horizontal Size Offest (1 click here = 10 clicks in MDHS)
Replace the H with V for vertical

Thx,
Vidkidd


This is very useful info.
BTW, is there Memory Stick Viewer specific geometry adj parameter(s) ?
The parameter names in MID7 looks related to, but not so sure.
thanks

Is someone know what the Service Menu DCP-INT (RFRM) (item 42) do the the picture ?

I found that the overall brightness is higher, this way it is possible to reduce the brightness setting more on the lower side, giving more range for adjusting.

It seem that it affect only the brightness of the image, not the gamma or picture level.

The setting have only 0 or 1 as a choice. Deffault is 1.

thanks.

Originally posted by TH3_FRB
Already too late for me. But I don't plan on keeping it more then 3-4 month anyway...never did.

Why not?

umr,

Just wanted to thank you for the tweaks that you have provided here. The Pro mode on my 50" WE610 looks so much better now. Star Wars never looked so good to me. :D

You mentioned sometime ago that the Standard setting should be fine as it is without any SM tweaks. Does that still hold true, or have you done any SM tweaks for Standard and Vivid?

Thanks again!

I had never planned to get an LCD RP set. I've always had my eye on DLP but decided it was out of my proce range last year and bought a 40XBR800 instead. That tube went bad and I eventually convinced Sony to replace rather then fix it. I asked for a 34XBR960 to avoid the common color impurity problems with the 40". When the 34 showed up damaged and they were out of stock Sony offered me the 42WE655 at no additional cost to make up for the 6-month ordeal I went through. I'm happy enough with the GWIV for now but 1) I really want a 50-55" set 2) the blacks aren't very good 3) I think it should be a bit sharper. So my plan is to sell it fairly cheap in another couple months once the Toshiba DLP I want is available.

Originally posted by Art_in_SJC
Why not?

Originally posted by TH3_FRB
I had never planned to get an LCD RP set. I've always had my eye on DLP but decided it was out of my proce range last year and bought a 40XBR800 instead. That tube went bad and I eventually convinced Sony to replace rather then fix it. I asked for a 34XBR960 to avoid the common color impurity problems with the 40". When the 34 showed up damaged and they were out of stock Sony offered me the 42WE655 at no additional cost to make up for the 6-month ordeal I went through. I'm happy enough with the GWIV for now but 1) I really want a 50-55" set 2) the blacks aren't very good 3) I think it should be a bit sharper. So my plan is to sell it fairly cheap in another couple months once the Toshiba DLP I want is available.

Ah. Yes that makes sense. And here I was thinking you had shelled out a wad of cash on something you just wanted to play around with. :)

Originally posted by TH3_FRB

I really never saw the lines on the sharpness test become overly enhanced either but again, it just didn't seem right to leave it set at the max...this may have something to do with the relatively soft picture to begin with.




I noticed this when I initially did the THX on my 55WF at 10ft away. Then i got right up on the screen, and that was when I was able to see the sharpness setting taking affect with the lines for the sharpness test pattern.

Yeah...this is the 4th set I've had this year (40XBR800 went bad, 34XBR960 arrived damaged, 32" Sanyo from WalMart to hold me over till the Sony problem got resolved...now in the bedroom, and the 42WE655) and my friends think I'm crazy when I say I want to sell in next month and buy a different one :D But in reality I only spent $1900 for the 42WE655 since that's what I paid for the 40" last year...of course it's been 6 months of my time on the phone with Sony trying to get it all worked out.

Originally posted by Art_in_SJC
Ah. Yes that makes sense. And here I was thinking you had shelled out a wad of cash on something you just wanted to play around with. :)

Thanks to everyone for this thread and big thanks to umr. My question and please dont bash me I just want to be careful and sure I am reading umr's tweaks correctly. It states that you should not push the 3 button or the 6 button in the service menu but in step 20 it states to press the 3 button until the value is 15 and line 32 it tells you to push the 6 button until the value is zero. I guess my question is are you in the service menu when you push these buttons and is it o.k. to push these buttons if I follow the instructions exactly as they are written. I do not want to mess anything up and have been reading this thread from start to finish but have not come across anyone asking this question. It just states do not push these buttons in the service menu but the instructions tell you to push them. Thanks and please do not beat me up for this question. I also did spell check this, so I can use the spell check.Thanks again.

leegina,

BE CAREFUL NOT TO PUSH THE 3 OR 6 BUTTON BY MISTAKE WHILE IN THE SERVICE MENU

This is a warning to only push the 3 and 6 button when you intend to. You must use these to change the values when it is necessary.

umr: Can one use service menu to find out the resolution at which an input is sending the signal- geared towards HD signals from OTA and DVD Player (If I want to make sure I am getting 720p or 1080i from DVD Player). Just curious.

Originally posted by mallu2u
umr: Can one use service menu to find out the resolution at which an input is sending the signal- geared towards HD signals from OTA and DVD Player (If I want to make sure I am getting 720p or 1080i from DVD Player). Just curious.

You sure can.

I thought you could get this information with the "Info" key on the remote as well. I haven't used the actual GWIII remote in a while, but I thought this key brought up a little info overlay with the AV input resolution.

Edit - As it turns out, I must have been thinking about a previous TV - this remote doesn't have an "Info" key. Sorry.

Thanks for the reply!! leegina

Originally posted by umr
You sure can.

Good. Which section in your SM Tweaks allows me to get that info? Can you point me to that? Thanks.

The service menu is arranged as follows:

Category.....................Item No. ..............Data.............Menu Mode
Item Name........................................................ .........Input Signal

The following are the service menu commands (multiple button pushes are
separated with a dash). NO COMMANDS REQUIRE BUTTONS TO BE PUSHED AT THE SAME TIME:

To Enter Service Menu Press {Display - 5 - Vol+ - Power (While off)} If you do this quickly after you turn off the set the lamp will not shutdown. You have about 3 seconds to avoid a lamp restart.
To Save Settings Press {Mute - Enter}

To Navigate Service Menu

Up Item Press {1}
Down Item Press {4}
Up Category Press {2}


The "Input Signal" usually shows the input type on the display. If it is showing something else just hit the 2 button on the remote until it does.

Thanks a ton. I shall try that tonite.

OK im very new at home theater and I just got my 60WE610

Im not sure if i should do these tweaks or not. I only watch SD tv and DVDs and play Xbox.

Also, I know Xbox can play games at lots of different resolutions but how can I switch between them and tweak the TV at each resolution?

Do I have to tweak the TV at each input resolution there is? I dont know if i have sources for all of them.

Is it possible - implementing umr's tweaks - to significantly reduce any screen door effect?...or is that just something you have to live with?

Have not seen umr around here lately....hope he will be back before long.

Originally posted by domer67
Is it possible - implementing umr's tweaks - to significantly reduce any screen door effect?...or is that just something you have to live with?

I can think of two ways to reduce the screen door effect for digital projectors:

1) Make sure you're not sitting closer than the minimum recommended viewing distance for your TV's size. Personally, I think Sony's recommended distance is about too close. For my 60" XBR950, I have the viewing position for the front row of seating at 9' from the front of the screen. This effectively makes the screen door effect disappear for most viewers. I can sometimes see it on static solid bright backgrounds (with 20-20 vision).

2) Slightly defocus your image. Wait! Before you call me a heretic, hear me out. Basically what you can try to do is blur out the little black boxes that make up the screen door effect. You'll soften the picture (making it a little fuzzy), but you'll also be softening the screen door effect.

Although, I personally don't recommend softening the image. Watching a fuzzy image can be tiring on your eyes since they'll be constantly trying to sharpen the focus. Even though the screen door effect reduces the smoothness of the image, it can give your eyes something sharp to focus on and thus actually allow a more relaxed viewing experience.

//Robert

Originally posted by domer67
Is it possible - implementing umr's tweaks - to significantly reduce any screen door effect?...or is that just something you have to live with?

The tweaks do not address defocussing the image as Robert suggested. I do not recommend this. The image quality degrades rapidly with a loss of focus.

A better approach is to sit a little further from the screen.

You may also be confusing SDE (screen door effect) with FPN (fixed pattern noise). SDE is actually pretty tough to see, but FPN is pretty common. FPN can be caused the source, screen and/or LCD panels. There are some adjustments for the panels if you have the alternating line problem. Other forms of FPN are best addressed at the source or by choosing a display with a better screen technology.

In normal viewing I do not notice the screen door effect at anything less than 5 or 6 feet, so if anything I would like to sharpen the image a bit. When I was looking at sets earlier this year I noticed that the screen door effect was much more pronounced on the non-XBR GWIII's, which is one reason why I paid extra for the XBR. The trade off is the XBR can have more glare, but I am able to control the lighting in my room so this is not an issue either. But in a brightly lit room where glare is a constant problem, the WE series would have been a better choice.

Originally posted by JBaumgart
... When I was looking at sets earlier this year I noticed that the screen door effect was much more pronounced on the non-XBR GWIII's, which is one reason why I paid extra for the XBR. The trade off is the XBR can have more glare, but I am able to control the lighting in my room so this is not an issue either. But in a brightly lit room where glare is a constant problem, the WE series would have been a better choice.

You are describing FPN not SDE. The panels in these sets are the same. The BIG difference is the XBR has a superior screen and electronics resulting in much reduced FPN.

How would I impliment these tweaks for an Xbox? It uses resolutions from 480 and up. Would I need to put in a game at each resolution to tweak it for each resolution?

Originally posted by umr
You may also be confusing SDE (screen door effect) with FPN (fixed pattern noise). SDE is actually pretty tough to see, but FPN is pretty common. FPN can be caused the source, screen and/or LCD panels.

What I see might well be FPN. It's blatant to me when the TV displays bright/light backgrounds. I don't think it's a source thing. Screen or LCD panels sounds more like it I guess. I do have vision like a hawk, so maybe I'm screwed with all LCD's. I don't really see it on the DLP's, although on some of those (Mits being the exception), I do see other kinds of pic defects.

Wasn't sure if there was any SM tweaks to fix or help. I thought not, but thought I'd check with the experts here. Now to determine whether to keep my 55WF or not.

My GWIII has a problem with the geometry of the picture. In 4:3 mode the picture is wider on the bottom of the picture than on the top of the picture by about 3/4 inch on each side. I also get the same problem when I put my laptop's DVI signal into the set. Is there a way to adjust the geometry so the picture width on the bottom is the same as on top? Thanks.

Philippe.

Originally posted by ppersaud
... Is there a way to adjust the geometry so the picture width on the bottom is the same as on top? Thanks.

Philippe.

You must change the optical alignment to effect this change. I would either shim the optical engine or mirror if you can't get it exchanged for a different one.

Thanks UMR. Appreciate your help. When I entered the service menu on my GWIII to tweek it, I could not find the DCP-ADJ2 menu. I was wondering if I had an older Operating System/ROM. If I do have an older Operating System/ROM, can I upgrade? Thanks again,

Philippe.

Originally posted by ppersaud
Thanks UMR. Appreciate your help. When I entered the service menu on my GWIII to tweek it, I could not find the DCP-ADJ2 menu. I was wondering if I had an older Operating System/ROM. If I do have an older Operating System/ROM, can I upgrade? Thanks again,

Philippe.

I doubt that is the issue. Are you sure you have a GWIII?

The model number I have is KF50XBR800. I have been thinking this is a GWIII. Am I correct? Thanks.

Originally posted by ppersaud
The model number I have is KF50XBR800. I have been thinking this is a GWIII. Am I correct? Thanks.


I believe that's a GWII.

Originally posted by ppersaud
The model number I have is KF50XBR800. I have been thinking this is a GWIII. Am I correct? Thanks.

Radioflyer is correct that is a GWII.

Here are the tweaks for that model set. This is what I happen to own as well.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3770895#post3770895

Thanks much UMR. You Da Man!

Philippe

These last few posts beg the question... what models are considered GWII and which are GWIII (or IV)?

These terms get thrown around alot here on the forums, and I don't think I've ever found a concise explanation of what they are.

Chris

GWII: KF-xxXBR800
GWIII: KF-xxWE610, KF-xxWE620, KDF-xxXBR950
GWIV: KDF-xxWE655, KDF-xxWF655, KDF-xxXS955

GW == Grand Wega

xx == Diagonal Screen Size In Inches

The roman numeral corresponds to the year they were released and the version in the sequence of the Grand Wega LCD TV's.

Originally posted by umr
GWII: KF-xxXBR800
GWIII: KF-xxWE610, KF-xxWE620, KDF-xxXBR950
GWIV: KDF-xxWE655, KDF-xxWF655, KDF-xxXS955

GW == Grand Wega

xx == Diagonal Screen Size In Inches

The roman numeral corresponds to the year they were released and the version in the sequence of the Grand Wega LCD TV's.

Thanks for the info. So this entire thread seems to be about tweaking the GWIII (and the differences between it and the GWII). But having been to stores recently, mostly what I've found in stock are GWIV's. That's good to know.

Chris

Originally posted by tanzbodeli
Thanks for the info. So this entire thread seems to be about tweaking the GWIII (and the differences between it and the GWII). But having been to stores recently, mostly what I've found in stock are GWIV's. That's good to know.

Chris

That is true. This thread is intended to help people setup GWIII sets. Some of the information here cany be applied to the GWIV series, but not all of it. It will be up to others on the forum to develop specific tweaks for the GWIV series. I have little interest in any LCD RPTV at this point. I am interested in the new 1080p LCoS sets from JVC and Sony that are due to hit the market in 2005.

umr: I am going to try calibrating the TV using the Avia Disk...with my new Panny S97 player. Never done calibration before. Was planning to use the Prof mode to start working on the calibration. Have Qs for you. What should I be setting for Color Temp, NR, Mild Mode, etc before I should start the calibration. Also, any tips? I plan to set the DVD Player settings to default before starting off. Your advice shall be appreciated since this is my first time with calibrating TV using Avia.

I have problem with my Wega III horizontal position for 480i & 480p only for all sources. It is shift to the right ~ 1inch. 720p & 1080i is centered.

I try MID1-DHPH, but to me it looks like will change position for all 4 resolution. I just found another tweak pdf document for XBR-800, it indicated MID1 is for 16:9 & MID2 is for 4:3.

I am at work right now, so I will try it when I get home. Question is MID2-DRHP adjust horizontal postition for 480i & 480p only, & leave 720p & 1080i position unchange?

Duskie,

The overscan adjustment for 480i source is in category MID2 and the items are:

0 RHPL - Horizontal Position
1 RHSL - Horizontal Size
2 RVPL - Vertical Position
3 RVSL - Vertical Size

The settings are stored separately for 480i/component and 480i/composite. It is also stored separately for Normal, Full, Widezoom, and Zoom size.

For 1080i/720p/480p source, the adjustment is in category MID4: DHPL, DHSL, DVPL, and DVSL. The settings in MID4 are stored separately for different input format, i.e., component/1080i, 720p, 480p, DVI/1080i, 720p, and 480p.

chiifac,

Thanks very much.

I see now. So, I have HD-Tivo with DVI input, which I switch between 480i/720p/1080i. I also have DVD player with component input with 480p. So I should only use MID4 for adjustment, right?

Duskie,

Good question about DVI/480i. I don't have the service manual with me now, so I am not sure. My guess is that it should still be in MID2. But it should be easy for you to try it out.

MID2 work for DVI/480i!:p

But I still have another problem. Is there any way to shift the side panels horizontally, when I have 4:3 source in 480i or 480p with Normal mode?

Right now, if I use Normal mode in 480i/480p with 4:3 source from DVD player, MID2/MID4 can only adjust picture horizontally inside both panel, it will not shift the panel. I need help to reduce left panel & increase right panel. This is not a problem with HD-DVR, since I only use full mode with HD-DVR, it was set to send 16:9 picture all the time.

How does overscan adjustment work in GWIII?

There are actually three knobs to change the position and two knobs to change the size of the display image. First, there is the relative position of the (projected) LCD panel to the tv screen. By design, the panel image should overlap the tv screen by some margin (overscan). The SM items for changing the position of the panel is in MID1. Item #0, DHPH is for horizontal position and item #1, DVPH is for vertical position. Since the panel size is fixed (1386x788 pixels), there are no adjustments for changing the size of the panel.

Now, within the display panel, there is this area called active Window. Only the image within this Window is displayed on the tv screen. Any pixels outside of this Window will be turned off and therefore show up on the screen as black. The position and size of this Window is defined in MID1. Item #9, MDHP is for horizontal position, #10, MDVP for vertical position. Item #11, MDHS is for horizontal size, and #13, MDVS for vertical size. There are only two window sizes that are of interest to us- the 4:3 and 16:9 windows. With a 4:3 source, one should try to adjust the vertical size to be slightly larger than the height of the tv screen. The horizontal size is then adjusted to give a precise 4:3 window for minimizing image distortion. The position knobs are used to center the Window. For the 16:9 source, I believe the default settings result in a window size that is about 2.5% larger than the tv screen. So by tweaking (decreasing) the size settings, one should be able to get within 3% of overscan. Note that the position and size settings are stored separately for 4:3 and 16:9 windows.

Lastly, there is this knob that defines the relative size/position of the Window to the source image. Again by design, the Window size is about 2.5% smaller than the source image size. One would need to increase the window size to reduce the oversan. The SM items for 480i source is stored in MID2- RHPL (item 0), RHSL (item 1), RVPL (item 2), and RVSL (item3). For 480p/720p/1080i source, the items are in MID4- DHPL (item 0), DHSL (item 1), DVPL (item 2), and DVSL (item 3). Note that the settings for different input format (480p. 720p, or 1080i) are stored separately. For the 480p source, there are separate settings for 4:3 and 16:9 images.

chiifac,

Thanks again for your help.

I was able to use MID1-MDHP to adjust equal panels on both side for 480i/480p source from DVD.:p

I have a slight horizontal curve on the bottom of Wega III screen. This is on all resolution. When with an horizontal line across on the bottom of screen, using HDNET test pattern from D* HD-Tivo or DVD test pattern, both left & right end is 1/2 inch higher than middle of the line. This is only at the bottom of the screen, it is fairly straight on the top of screen. Vertical lines are all straight without any problem.

I try all setting on MID1 without any luck in 1080i, without save any setting of course. I decide I probably should stop trying before I did some damage.:confused:

Duskie,

This is an optical alignment problem that is common in the GWIII units. If you get close enough to the screen to follow the lines of individual pixels, you'll be able to see this.

I don't believe there is any good fix of this short of shimming the optical unit. I've learned to live with it, as it is minor, and really has much less distortion than any type of CRT. Of course with what we've spent, we'd all like our units to be absolutely perfect (I know I would) but so far I don't think anyone makes a perfect video display. There are certainly other aspects of the Sony Grand Wega's that keep them from being as perfect as they could be, but I don't think anyone else has done as well with displays this large.