Download a pdf version here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=4152421

It appears most of the adjustments for these two sets are nearly the same.

I finally have some useful information to post. This afternoon/evening I spent about 4 hours tweaking bigscreentv's KF-60XBR950. I was able to improve the resolution, gray scale and color decoder in his set. Generally, I would say the GWIII XBR can look very close to a fully tweaked GWII XBR. The bright 60" XBR screen is very sweet though.

The main difference is that it is much brighter. His 60" is 44% brighter (56 ftL) than my untweaked 50" (39ftL). The contrast ratio though is about the same. His measured at 390:1 while mine is 400:1 with a color correction filter. It appears to me that Sony has tweaked the panels on this set such that they are much closer to D65 at 0% signal level than the GWII without a filter. I prefer the lower black level of my set, but if you want to watch it in a bright setting the GWIII would look better. You could achieve the same effect with a neutral density filter in the GWIII XBR.

The color and gray scale on both sets can be very accurate. I did not notice a big difference between the two here.

Resolution on the GWIII was much worse without going into the service menu for HD. The DVE-HD (D-VHS over fire-wire) resolution patterns were very soft without SM adjustments. The HD color decoder had a strong red push without the SM adjustments as well.

I was not able to test a 480p input, but I would not be surprised if it turned out to need similar adjustments as the 480i input.

I did not have a chance to play with gamma, but the inputs I looked at looked correct in PRO mode. The XBR set had quite a few user adjustments that looked like they would alter gamma.

I also did not adjust the geometry on his set. It had about 5% overscan and looked to be generally well centered. It was a little less straight than my GWII, but it was not noticeable without test patterns..

I was not able to get the 480i input to look quite as good as my Panny XP30 on my GWII in either 480i or 480p. I only had 4 hours to do the whole enchilada so more improvements might be possible. I thought the 720p looked a little better on the GWIII XBR after tweaking than my tweaked GWII, but the difference is pretty subtle. The GWII looks a little sharper, but the GWIII XBR has a little better resolution. I would guess this is the improvement in electronics for the all digital path showing up.

GWIII Best Practices (1/6/04):

The following are general rules I would follow to get the best picture quality from these sets before or after tweaking.

- Feed all signals in at their native resolution (480p at 480p, 720p at 720p, 1080i at 1080i). Scaling the source twice is a bad idea. The only exception to this are PAL sources. They should be fed at 720p if possible because the TV does not support PAL directly.
- Assume that the comb filter in the Sony TV is better than the one in any other video source unless you prove otherwise. This means use composite inputs instead of S-Video unless you prove S-Video is better.
- Use a quality DVD player that includes decks like the Denon DVD-3800, Panasonic DVD-XP30 or the Denon 1600. PAL would benifit from a player that scales the signal to 720p.
- Use component inputs for component sources like DVD players.
- Stop worrying about DVI inputs for DVD players. Component is just as good and frequently better quality deinterlacers are available with component outputs.
- Pay careful attention to room lighting and screen placement. Minimize reflections. Do not sit too close or too far. Do not sit too high or too low. Do not sit to far off to the side. Do not view the TV with too little or too much light.


USE THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION AT YOUR OWN RISK!!!!

Here is what I changed from the default PRO mode settings. Press the reset button on the remote to go back to default settings while in the user menu with PRO highlighted.

ENTERING THE SERVICE MENU COULD VOID YOUR WARRANTY AND RENDER YOUR TV USELESS!!!

THE FOLLOWING CHANGES ARE INTENDED FOR PRO MODE ONLY. CHANGE THE PICTURE MODE ON ALL SOURCES TO PRO AND RESET THE SETTINGS TO DEFAULT BEFORE STARTING TO DO THESE CHANGES.

ALWAYS RECORD THE CATEGORY, ITEM NO., DATA, PICTURE MODE,
ITEM NAME & INPUT SIGNAL BEFORE CHANGING ANYTHING!!!!

The service menu is arranged as follows:

Category.....................Item No. ..............Data.............Menu Mode
Item Name........................................................ .........Input Signal

The following are the service menu commands (multiple button pushes are
separated with a dash). NO COMMANDS REQUIRE BUTTONS TO BE PUSHED AT THE SAME TIME:

To Enter Service Menu Press {Display - 5 - Vol+ - Power (While off)} If you do this quickly after you turn off the set the lamp will not shutdown. You have about 3 seconds to avoid a lamp restart.
To Save Settings Press {Mute - Enter}

To Navigate Service Menu

Up Item Press {1}
Down Item Press {4}
Up Category Press {2}
Down Category Press {5}
Increment Data Press {3}
Decrement Data Press {6}

To erase changes that have not been saved unplug TV after cooling down.
To exit the Service Menu turn off the TV and immediately turn it back with the power button again after turning it off (very quickly). You have about 3 seconds to avoid a lamp restart.

To change a data item for an input you must press [TV/Video] on the remote to select that input while you are on the data item if you are not on that input and in the proper mode [PRO, VIVID...] without an image from that device on the screen it will not allow you to make the change. Once you have changed the proper data item you must save it before proceeding to the next input or mode or the change will be lost. Note: Sometimes an input will change its signal type (720p to 480i) from a device without your asking it to so make sure your changes took. The following list is only a small subset of the values in the service menu. Go to the correct category first and then move up to the correct item name to change a value. All of these values can be tested correctly without saving them. Only store a value when you are sure of the change because going back requires you to enter the original value manually.

Several of the following items should be tuned to your set with test patterns. These include brightness, picture and gray scale. Gray scale is very difficult to adjust without test equipment and should be avoided unless you have some test equipment.

I would use the THX Optimizer patterns to set picture and brightness. These can be found on Monsters Inc. and Star Wars II along with many other of the newer THX certified DVD's. Increase UPIC only as high as the color of gray remains constant. Adjust UBRT per the instructions on THX Optimizer. These settings will need to be revisited if you adjust the gray scale.

The method I used to adjust gray scale is only going to be valid on these sets because I used red, green and blue ratios based on my set which uses very similar devices. I also did the final cleanup by eye balling it based on my experience of looking at D65. Unless we can figure out how to turn off the panels in these sets it will be very difficult to accurately adjust the gray scale.

I used an AEMC CA813 light meter, AVIA colored filters and the gray ramp on THX Optimizer. I adjusted the drives and cuts until the brightest square on the right and the next to dimmest square on the right measured in the following ratios. Blue is 6.84% of Green, Red is 61.8% of Green. I then tweaked the red drive a little after looking at some gray ramps on DVE on D-VHS. This resulted in a very nice looking gray instead of the too blue neutral or too red warm we started with.

Link To More Info On Gray Scale Calibration (http://www.smartavtweaks.com/Intro_new.html)

I would use a resolution pattern if you want to see what the sharpness and enhancement changes are doing. The color decoder changes should be viewed with color bars. THX Optimizer includes a resolution pattern along with color bars on the same display. A resolution pattern with closely spaced vertical and horizontal lines would be better. AVIA's 200 TVL pattern is a very good resolution pattern. DVE has one with color and b&w information that is also useful.

The user sharpness setting (USHP) is interactive with several other service menu values (SHF0, MVLS, MHLC). The set will appear too soft if you use a 0 value for USHP without changing the other service menu values to the values listed. You may also prefer more enhancement than a value 0 for USHP offers after all of the other values are changed.

User Menu:

Mild - Off (improves resolution)
Advanced Video - Cinemotion, Reality (1), Clarity (1) (slight improvement in resolution)
White Balance - Increase blue bias to ~75%, Decrease blue gain to ~60% (improves gray scale XBR version only)


Service Menu:

All Resolutions & Inputs (Composite, Component, DVI, 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i)

DCP-User (Category)

UPIC changed from 46 to 58 (default picture level matches input signal level)
UBRT changed from 31 to 37 (default brightness level matches input signal level)
USHP changed from 36 to 0 (default sharpness 12/28/03)

DCP-ADJ1 (Category)

RDRV changed from 140 to 131 (gray scale adjustment for high level red signal WE version only 12/28/03)
GDRV no change 140 (gray scale adjustment for high level green signal WE version only 12/28/03)
BDRV changed from 140 to 102 (gray scale adjustment for high level blue signal WE version only 12/28/03)
RCUT no change 255 (gray scale adjustment for low level red signal WE version only 12/28/03)
GCUT changed from 255 to 242 (gray scale adjustment for low level green signal WE version only 12/28/03)
BCUT no change 255 (gray scale adjustment for low level blue signal WE version only 12/28/03)

DCP-ADJ2 (Category)

SHF0 changed from various values to 15 (reduces enhancement and improves frequency response 12/28/03)

480i (Composite, Component, S-Video)

MID5 (Category)

MVLS changed from a 1 to a 0 (improves resolution)
MHLC changed from a 3 to a 1 (improves resolution)

480p (Component)

MID5 (Category)

MVLS changed from a 1 to a 0 (improves resolution)
MHLC changed from a 3 to a 1 (improves resolution)

1080i/720p (DVI)

MID5 (Category)

MHLC changed from a 3 to a 1 (improves resolution)

DCP-User (Category)

UBOF changed from 35 to 30 (corrects black level error between SD and HD)
AXIS changed from 2 to 0 (corrects color decoder red push)

1080i/720p (Component)

DCP-User (Category)

AXIS changed from 2 to 0 (corrects color decoder red push 12/28/03)

MID5 (Category)

MHLC changed from a 2 to a 1 (improves resolution12/28/03)

Other Service Menu Adjustments That May Be Useful But Are Not Normally Necessary (12/31/03):

DCP-ADJ1 (Category)

SPIC (Sub Picture, can be used to increase overall picture brightness)

DCP-ADJ2 (Category)

SHOF (Input specific sharpness offset. This can be used to tweak an individual inputs sharpness)

DCP-User (Category)

UCOL (User Menu Default Color. This can be used to set default color level in user menu)
UHUE (User Menu Default Hue. This can be used to set default hue level in user menu)
UPOF (Input specific picture offset. This can be used to tweak an individual inputs picture level)
UCOF (Input specific color offset. This can be used to tweak an individual inputs color level)
UHOF (Input specific hue offset. This can be used to tweak an individual inputs hue level)
UGAM (User gamma adjustment)
RYB (Red level for color decoder)
RYR (Red hue for color decoder)
GYB (Green level for color decoder)
GYR (Green hue for color decoder)

MID1 (Category) BE CAREFUL WITH THESE THEY CAN RENDER YOUR SET USELESS

DHPH (Horizontal position)
DVPH (Veticle position)
MDHS (Horizontal size)
MDVS (Vertical size)




Step-By-Step Procedure To Implement GWIII Tweaks (AT YOUR OWN RISK. I WAS NOT ABLE TO TEST THIS, BUT I BELIEVE IT TO BE CORRECT):

Preparation: All devices (HD, DVD...) must be on and hooked to the TV. You will need some type of setup disk. I prefer THX Optimizer like that found on Star Wars II and Avia and will refer to them exclusively. You will need something to record the original settings. Allow plenty of time (hours) to do this. Rushing this is a bad idea. I also prefer to do this in the evening when you can control lighting and reflections. Review how your set looks currently using the THX Optimizer Video setup. You may even want to attempt to adjust the user menu to see what the various settings do before starting this. I would review several scenes in the Star Wars II movie for future reference. Note the sabotage scene and the dying woman?s clothing, the scene where we first see Yoda and note the detail in peoples hair and clothing, the bounty hunter scene where she shoots the rifle in the dark and note the detail in her vehicle, and the scene where OB1 is falling with the city streets below him note the detail of the streets and buildings.

BE CAREFUL NOT TO PUSH THE 3 OR 6 BUTTON BY MISTAKE WHILE IN THE SERVICE MENU

REMEMBER TO SWITCH YOUR DVD PLAYER IN AND OUT OF PROGRESSIVE TO TWEAK BOTH 480I & 480P MODES ON EACH SERVICE MENU PARAMETER

KF-XXWE610 OWNERS READ PAGES 68, 69, 70 AND 71 IN YOUR USER MANUAL.

KDF-XXXBR950 OWNERS READ PAGES 87, 88, 89, 90 AND 91 IN YOUR USER MANUAL.

1. Press the TV/Video button on your remote to select an input.
2. Press the Menu button.
3. In the Video menu select the Pro mode.
4. Press the Menu button.
5. Repeat step 1 to 4 for each input on your TV and make certain they are all set to Pro mode.
6. Press the Menu button.
7. Highlight Pro Mode.
8. Press reset on your remote.
9. Select the DVD player with TV/Video button.
10. Turn all of your sources (HD, DVD...) on and set the DVD player output to interlaced using component cables, turn all enhancements off and set all picture controls to their neutral position on the DVD player.
11. Press the Menu button and make sure you are in Pro mode.
12. Turn Mild Off.
13. Go to the Advanced Video Settings, select Cinemotion, set Reality to 1 and Clarity to 1.
14. Power the set off and execute the next step in 3 seconds or less.
15. Press Display 5 Vol+ Power on the remote to enter the service menu.
16. Select the DVD player with TV/Video button (it must be on) with the THX Optimizer setup display showing the frequency ramp and color bars on the screen.
17. Press 2 until you see DCP-ADJ2 in the upper left corner.
18. Press 1 or 4 until you see SHF0 below DCP-ADJ2 in the upper left corner.
19. Record all of the information on the screen for this input and parameter.
20. Make sure you are on the correct parameter and then press 3 until the value (the second number from the left on the top line) is 15.
21. Press Mute Enter (Write should appear in red for a few seconds if you do this correctly) to save this change. This is not reversible except by you manually changing the value back and saving it again so be sure.
22. Press TV/Video or change the devices output resolution (720p to 1080i) to move to the next device/resolution. Go to step 19 if the value for SHF0 is not 15 (Do this for all of your devices).
23. Press TV/Video to select your next 480i or 480p device (DVD, Cable...)
24. Press 2 until you see MID5 in the upper left corner.
25. Press 1 or 4 until you see MVLS below MID5 in the upper left corner.
26. Record all of the information on the screen for this input and parameter.
27. Make sure you are on the correct parameter and then press 6 until the value (the second number from the left on the top line) is zero.
28. Press Mute Enter (Write should appear in red for a few seconds if you do this correctly) to save this change.
29. Press TV/Video to select the next 480i or 480p device. Go to step 26 if the value for MVLS is not 0 (Do this for all of your 480i or 480p devices).
30. Press 1 or 4 until you see MHLC below MID5 in the upper left corner.
31. Record all of the information on the screen for this input and parameter.
32. Make sure you are on the correct parameter and then press 6 until the value (the second number from the left on the top line) is 1.
33. Press Mute Enter (Write should appear in red for a few seconds if you do this correctly) to save this change.
34. Press TV/Video or change the devices output resolution (720p to 1080i) to move to the next device/resolution. Go to step 31 if the value for MHLC is not 1 (Do this for all of your devices).
35. Press TV/Video until you are on the DVD input.
36. Press 2 until you see DCP-USER in the upper left corner of the screen.
37. Press 1 or 4 until you see UPIC below DCP-USER in the upper left corner of the screen.
38. Record all of the information on the screen for this input and parameter.
39. Display the contrast/picture setup display from THX Optimizer.
40. Adjust UPIC (user menu picture) by pressing the 3 button until the color shifts or some of the squares disappear. Press the 6 button until the color is even and all squares are visible if you saw the color shift or squares disappear.
41. Press Mute Enter (Write should appear in red for a few seconds if you do this correctly) to save this change.
42. Press 1 or 4 until you see UBRT below DCP-USER.
43. Record all of the information on the screen for this input and parameter.
44. Display the brightness (next) setup display from THX Optimizer.
45. Adjust UBRT (user menu brightness) by pressing the 3 button until the drop shadow appears behind THX. Press the 6 button until the drop shadow disappears or the last square is barely visible (This is best done in normal lighting for watching movies).
46. Press Mute Enter (Write should appear in red for a few seconds if you do this correctly) to save this change.
47. Go back to step 37 and to verify the picture setting until nothing changes in UPIC and UBRT.
48. Press 1 or 4 until you see USHP below DCP-USER.
49. Record all of the information on the screen for this input and parameter.
50. Display the sharpness color bar (next) setup display from THX Optimizer. I prefer Avia's sharpness pattern for this if you have it.
51. Adjust USHP (user menu sharpness) by pressing the 3 button until the sweep pattern looks enhanced or uneven. Press the 6 button until the sweep pattern looks sharp, but without enhancement. Do the same thing with Avia, but note the thickness of the crossing lines. The optimal sharpness on Avia is when the corresponding vertical and horizontal lines are the same thickness. No ringing (shadows) should be present on the vertical or horizontal lines either.
52. Press Mute Enter (Write should appear in red for a few seconds if you do this correctly) to save this change.
53. Display the THX Optimizer sharpness setup screen or Avia horizontal crossed gray ramp. This screen contains a gray scale ramp. Note the color of the gray squares in the ramp. They should be the same color of gray. D65 should not have a color in it. It should look gray with no tinge of color. An overcast day is what it tends to look like. Any shift off D65 will tend to have a tint to it.
54. Skip to step 57 if you want to avoid complex changes to the gray scale.
55. You can use a light meter to adjust your gray scale like I described above or you can try the user menu values I came up with for the XBR set or the service menu values for the WE. Be sure to record your original values before doing this. Your goal is to have an even color of gray at all levels. Sorry, but this is too complex to make an easy procedure for.
56. Go back to step 37 if you changed anything on gray scale.
57. If you skipped the complex color temperature adjustment go to the user menu and pick the color temperature that makes the gray ramp look as close to gray as possible (warm is usually the best). Go back to step 37 if you changed anything on gray scale.
58 Quickly power the TV off and on to exit the service menu.
59. Take a break. You deserve it.
60. Spend some time reviewing the recommended scenes from Star Wars II. You should see improved resolution and possibly colors if you adjusted the gray scale. You may also want to tweak the color and tint a little if you have color filters and color bars. My experience with these sets is it that they are very close on DVD's without it though. I would also do some comparisons with the DVD player in progressive and interlaced mode to see which looks best.
61. Reverse these changes if you don't like them or continue with tweaking the HD or other inputs if you do.
62. Power the set off and execute the next step in 3 seconds or less.
63. Press Display 5 Vol+ Power on the remote to enter the service menu.
64. Select the HD input with TV/Video button (it must be on).
65. Press 2 until you see DCP-USER in the upper left corner.
66. Press 1 or 4 until you see AXIS below DCP-USER in the upper left corner.
67. Record all of the information on the screen for this input and parameter.
68. Make sure you are on the correct parameter and then press 6 until the value (the second number from the left on the top line) is zero.
69. Press Mute Enter (Write should appear in red for a few seconds if you do this correctly) to save this change.
70. Press TV/Video or change the devices output resolution (720p to 1080i) to move to the next device/resolution. Go to step 67 if the value for AXIS is not 0 (Do this for all of your devices).
71. Jump to step 78 if you have no DVI input or other input with brightness level problems.
72. Select the DVI input or input with brightness level problems with the TV/Video button (it must be on).
73. Press 1 or 4 until you see UBOF below DCP-USER in the upper left corner.
74. Record all of the information on the screen for this input and parameter.
75. Make sure you are on the correct parameter and then press 3 or 6 until the blacks look correct. This is best done with dark scenes or test material like DVE on D-VHS.
76. Go back to step 73 to adjust UBOF for the other inputs. Make sure it does not interfere with the setting you are changing does not change your reference source (DVD player) by verifying the brightness level on it after you finish the other input.
77. Press Mute Enter (Write should appear in red for a few seconds if you do this correctly) to save this change.
78. Quickly power the TV off and on to exit the service menu.
79. Press the Menu button.
80. Highlight Pro Mode.
81. Press reset on your remote.
82. Select the DVD player with TV/Video button.
83. Press the Menu button and make sure you are in Pro mode.
84. Turn Mild Off.
85. Go to the Advanced Video Settings, select Cinemotion, set Reality to 1 and Clarity to 1.
86. Verify that your set is properly adjusted by reviewing the THX Optimizer calibration screens.
87. You may find it useful to experiment with Cinema Black in the User Menu if you own the XBR version of this TV. You may prefer this on in low light situations. It may also extend the life of blub when on.

You should be finished calibrating your set. You can always revisit different settings in the service menu later. Your set is now setup so that when you hit reset on the remote in the user menu with Pro highlighted it will return to all of these values except for Mild Off, Cinemotion and Warm color temperature if you chose to use warm. I would compare the DVD player's performance in progressive and interlaced. Some player's will perform better than others in different output modes.


Edit (12/28/03):

Today I spent about 6 hours working on raah's 50" GWIII WE set. This set had a Dish 501 PVR, Panasonic progressive DVD player and a D-VHS deck.

I was not able to bring the 480p input up to being close to the 480i quality. It had terrible enhancement on closely spaced horizontal lines. I would not recommend using a 480p (progressive) DVD player at this time. This might be different with a DVI input, but I doubt it. (Update: This appears to be a problem with a specific player and not a general problem with the TV).

I was able to make significant improvements in the video quality of 480i and HD inputs. The 480i inputs benefited from the above tweaks and looked as good as my GWII in the end. The HD inputs once tweaked looked just like my GWII and worse than the GWIII XBR.

We did tweak the gray scale using a system similar to the SMART system, but based on measurements from my GWII. The results were excellent. The gray scale while not perfectly even was better than my set.

The gamma looked good so I left it alone.

The contrast ratio on this set measured 360:1. A little short of a filter tweaked GWII, but still better than an untweaked GWII. This set is very bright and needs significant room lighting to offset the high black level.

Edit - 12/29/03

Added more information on how to enter the service menu and make these changes.

Edit 12/30/03

Added step-by-step instructions.

Edit 12/31/03

Corrected error in instructions for SHF0. Removed warning about 480p players based on a comment from someone with a different player that had no problems. Added brightness level adjustment for inputs other than DVI to procedure. Added other service menu adjustments that people may find useful.

Edit - 1/2/04

Added some geometry adjustments for the more adventurous.

Edit - 1/5/04

Added reality and clarity settings for DRC to step-by-step procedure. Added reference to user manual.

Edit - 1/6/04

Added a section on GWIII best practices.

Edit - 1/29/04

Added more step at the end to press reset review settings.

Edit - 3/10/04

Removed comment about recommending Faroudja players and added Denon DVD-3800 to the recommended list. I currently prefer the 3800 to the XP30.

Edit - 3/28/04

Added a final step to explore the use of Cinema Black on the XBR version of these sets.

Edit - 5/20/04

Added some comments about PAL to best practices.

Edit - 8/4/04

Added link to pdf version

Got sick of retirement? :)

Thank you very much! Any idea if you are going to put together another tweaks PDF for the GWIII?

Thanks for the info.

I'm a newby, and have been trying to adjust me GWIII. I've been learned some stuff on my own, and I have purchased the Sony service manual for the KF-XXWE610 Series. I thought it would be more discriptive, I can't make anything out of it. Its yours if you want it. Email me your address kbergler@worldnet.att.net. If you don't want the manual, thats cool, it should make good kindling.

I used the DVE DVD to adjust the service menu. It really helped out on my colors. I still have no idea where my green is however. As you pointed out before, that filter doesn't seem to work.

Thanks for coming back, I hope we see more of you.

kbergler,

I would be interested if someone locally would like me to tweak a non-XBR GWIII. Otherwise, I would have no use for it.

Originally posted by junior_jam
Thank you very much! Any idea if you are going to put together another tweaks PDF for the GWIII?

What you see is what you get.:D

I don't know if these will work for a non-XBR GWIII either.

Originally posted by kbergler
...I used the DVE DVD to adjust the service menu. It really helped out on my colors. I still have no idea where my green is however. As you pointed out before, that filter doesn't seem to work....

Stick with only changing AXIS and I think you'll be OK.

I don't want to derail the thread, but...
Welcome Back!

Now I feel like I could buy this TV and have it look its best.

Thanks for taking a first dip for all of us umr! And special thanks to bigscreentv for providing the equipment! I just got my 60XBR up here in Flower Mound and it looks pretty good OOTB but definitely needs some improvement.

Two quick questions:

- What settings (in the SM or UM) appear to you to be on a per-mode and/or a per-input/per-input-type basis? At first blush it appears that all settings only apply to the mode and all you can do on a per-input basis is set the mode. You give some specific settings for input types, however (480i vs. 1080i) so I am wondering if things are a bit more flexible under the covers?

- The "mild mode" setting appears to me to keep flipping back to the "on" position in Pro Mode. I haven't played with things enough to be sure, but I could swear I have turned in off for say, Video 1, and then come back later (perhaps after an on/off cycle) and find that it is on again. Any thoughts on this?

Originally posted by BTDT
...- What settings (in the SM or UM) appear to you to be on a per-mode and/or a per-input/per-input-type basis? ...

- The "mild mode" setting appears to me to keep flipping back to the "on" position in Pro Mode. ...

I have no comments about the per input type basis other than those I posted.

We noticed the same problem with "mild" mode. I have no idea what is happening here.

My contact with these sets is limited to the four hour session and the observations I posted. I do believe the tweaks I posted are worth doing if you want to achieve a high quality picture. The resolution on 480i will be poor, 720p/1080i resolution will be really poor and the colors will be off on HD if you choose not to correct these problems in the service menu.

Originally posted by BTDT
Thanks for taking a first dip for all of us umr! And special thanks to bigscreentv for providing the equipment! I just got my 60XBR up here in Flower Mound and it looks pretty good OOTB but definitely needs some improvement.

Two quick questions:

- What settings (in the SM or UM) appear to you to be on a per-mode and/or a per-input/per-input-type basis? At first blush it appears that all settings only apply to the mode and all you can do on a per-input basis is set the mode. You give some specific settings for input types, however (480i vs. 1080i) so I am wondering if things are a bit more flexible under the covers?

- The "mild mode" setting appears to me to keep flipping back to the "on" position in Pro Mode. I haven't played with things enough to be sure, but I could swear I have turned in off for say, Video 1, and then come back later (perhaps after an on/off cycle) and find that it is on again. Any thoughts on this?

See http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=317563&pagenumber=1

There is some talk about input dependent settings (around page 3 or 4 of the thread IIRC)

Doug

Hello UMR, I'm very happy to see you post. Thanks for the great contribution.

I will try applying these settings tonight on my 42in WE. I'd be happy to guinnea-pig if there are any settings you'd like me to try and report on.

Originally posted by videoguru
...I will try applying these settings tonight on my 42in WE. I'd be happy to guinnea-pig if there are any settings you'd like me to try and report on.

I have no idea if these are the same in the WE series. I don't have any I would suggest you try at this time other than my footnote about POP and MIDE if you want to give that a shot AT YOUR OWN RISK of course.

Originally posted by BTDT
- The "mild mode" setting appears to me to keep flipping back to the "on" position in Pro Mode. I haven't played with things enough to be sure, but I could swear I have turned in off for say, Video 1, and then come back later (perhaps after an on/off cycle) and find that it is on again. Any thoughts on this?

This has been happening to me too.
At least, until last night. I left Video 5 on Pro mode with Mild Mode off, and the next day, when I went back to it, Mild Mode staid off. Yet it's on when I switch to Pro on the UHF input. But intil today, even the Video 5 one always switched back. But this was the first time I powered down leaving it on Pro mode.

Well I took a quick run-through of the service menu on my 60XBR950 and noticed that my settings already are set to or very close to what umr is saying they should be (most notably all the settings that umr says affect resolution are already set exactly as recommended), so I made no changes. Note that I've only gone through on 480i so far, as my HTPC is currently down as I RMA its power supply. :p I could do 720p with Soul Calibur 2 in my Xbox but that doesn't exactly let me throw up test patterns to see exactly what any changes would be doing (as the extent of the test patterns I can currently look at are Avia's via the crappy DVD playback of my PS2). :D

sorry to post a dumb question, but how to get in the xbr950's service menu
?

BTW - Thanks UMR!

Originally posted by Elbert
sorry to post a dumb question, but how to get in the xbr950's service menu
?

BTW - Thanks UMR!

Navigating the service menu is not entirely straight forward. You would be well advised to obtain a copy of the service manual from Sony if you don't know how it works.

If you really want to tempt fate or find out how to order the manual look at this web site:

General Sony Adjustments All Of These Do Not Apply To The GWIII (http://209.145.176.7/~090/awh/sonyadj.html)

Originally posted by Googer
Well I took a quick run-through of the service menu on my 60XBR950 and noticed that my settings already are set to or very close to what umr is saying they should be (most notably all the settings that umr says affect resolution are already set exactly as recommended), so I made no changes...

This is odd. Were you using a 480i component input in Pro mode?

Yes, with Pro mode I was using Avia on my PS2 hooked in via component on video 5. The main thing I noticed that you implied shouldn't be the case was that I still have a ~15% red push even though AXIS is set to 0 (though I didn't touch my set's grayscale yet either, so I suppose it's possible any color push I see should be taken with a grain of salt :p).

Hold the phone here! It seems user menu adjustments I'd previously made affected the service menu settings?!? I hadn't hit the reset button on my Pro mode settings before I started initially (I still can't find a reset button on my XBR950 remote, fortunately my KV-40XBR800's remote works and has one :p); after doing that, now my default service menu items matched what umr says for the mostpart. Anyway, umr, seeing as I can't throw up a test pattern at the moment to really see what's going on, why don't you want to put MID5:MHLC to a value of 0? In watching Soul Calibur 2 (720p), it appears to be a horizontal low-pass filter of some sort that looks like it gets turned off entirely at a value of 0; don't you want this? I'll note that my default value for this is still definitely 1, not 3 though. :p

Edit: I just noticed where the reset button on the XBR950 remote is. I guess I'm just blind. ;)

Originally posted by Googer
.... Anyway, umr, seeing as I can't throw up a test pattern at the moment to really see what's going on, why don't you want to put MID5:MHLC to a value of 0? In watching Soul Calibur 2 (720p), it appears to be a horizontal low-pass filter of some sort that looks like it gets turned off entirely at a value of 0; don't you want this? I'll note that my default value for this is still definitely 1, not 3 though. :p...

I agree that it probably is a horizontal filter. The 720p test patterns looked very good with a value of 1. A small amount of filtering is sometimes useful. Go ahead and use any value you like. It is your TV after all.

Originally posted by Googer
Yes, with Pro mode I was using Avia on my PS2 hooked in via component on video 5. The main thing I noticed that you implied shouldn't be the case was that I still have a ~15% red push even though AXIS is set to 0 (though I didn't touch my set's grayscale yet either, so I suppose it's possible any color push I see should be taken with a grain of salt :p).

Judging red push with an Avia red filter is not going to be accurate. The DVE red filter is much better and showed no red push with an AXIS value of zero. I have had great success with just setting AXIS on several other Sony sets. I would trust setting AXIS to zero over the red and green avia filters. The blue Avia filter is fine though. However, it is possible that your PS2 is not accurate and requires the TV calibration to be shifted. I would be careful about doing this if you use other devices with the same input type and resolution.

Originally posted by umr
I agree that it probably is a horizontal filter. The 720p test patterns looked very good with a value of 1. A small amount of filtering is sometimes useful. Go ahead and use any value you like. It is your TV after all. Yes of course I can use whatever setting I like; I was just wondering if you saw something gross happen with a setting of 0 that I didn't notice watching a "live" 720p feed rather than a test pattern. :p I agree that a small amount of filtering can sometims be useful for less than perfect sources but this filter idea sounds like a bad idea to me in general - it's part of what the bulk of the people here at AVS try to avoid; isn't it better to have no filters at all than to have one that filters out the highest-resolution detail and then try to artificially add it back in with sharpness filters? :)

Originally posted by umr
Judging red push with an Avia red filter is not going to be accurate. The DVE red filter is much better and showed no red push with an AXIS value of zero. I have had great success with just setting AXIS on several other Sony sets. I would trust setting AXIS to zero over the red and green avia filters. The blue Avia filter is fine though. However, it is possible that your PS2 is not accurate and requires the TV calibration to be shifted. I would be careful about doing this if you use other devices with the same input type and resolution. I agree that using Avia's filters isn't optimal nor is using my PS2 to view the test patterns (which are the main reasons I haven't actually made any 480i color decoder adjustments yet), but I swear that watching DirecTV via s-vid on input one that everyone looks a bit sunburnt. :p Not horribly unwatchably bad or anything but it's there. :) I'll note that in 720p my AXIS was 2 and that reds did get noticably brought more under control when I changed it to 0 so I did make and save that change. Maybe I'll play around with the color decoder settings manually (RYR, RYB, GYR, GYB) myself when turning the individual LCD panels on and off rather than relying on the filters and see what I come up with. :)

Originally posted by Googer
... isn't it better to have no filters at all than to have one that filters out the highest-resolution detail and then try to artificially add it back in with sharpness filters? :)

I did not see a setting of 1 negatively effect the highest resolution signals on DVE (HD version). I suspect it will only filter out higher frequency noise. The difference between zero and one on high frequency test patterns was VERY small.

OK, I'll probably go with 0 then as something that I'm trying to get on this set is perfect 1:1 pixel mapping for my HTPC. People (myself included) have gotten just about there as detailed in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=321968) (easily missed since it's in the HTPC forum instead of here), but one can tell that it's not quite perfect upon close inspection. Hopefully I'll get a working PSU back before too long so I can play with this some more. :)

Aww come on, there has got to be someone in umr's neighborhood with a non-XBR GWIII willing to allow umr to try some tweaking. The GWIII owners here would be eternally grateful, I know I would.

My 60WE610 is totally untweaked at this point and I'm still in awe of HD on this TV, but would love to make it the best it can be.

BTW, welcome back umr!!!!!

Googer,

I read through the thread you linked to. You guys need to take a more balanced approach between the TV and the PC.

I would pick some PC settings that I liked and then use the Nokia Monitor test patterns to tweak the GWIII. The POP setting in MID5 offers a huge number of combinations of filter settings. I would suggest you start there to find the best combination of MID5 settings. First write down all the values in MID5 then start changing POP. Once I found a POP setting I liked I would compare the settings in MID5 with the default ones and note the differences. You then can go in and modify the default settings or try changing MIDE to the value of POP you liked. I would then try and tweak the geometry in MID? to hone in on the 1:1 pixel mapping.

There might be service/user menu settings other than MID5 in the GWIII that filter the signal that prevent you from achieving 1:1 pixel mapping. Examining crossing horizontal and vertical one pixel lines is a very good way to judge if you have achieved your goal. This is one of the patterns I use on Jim Taylor's "DVD Demystified" to check how a DVD player is performing.

The amount of overscan or underscan you end up with will depend on the resolution you choose from the PC and the optical overscan on the GWIII.

Good Luck!!!

bump just to keep this thread alive(:

I've been playing around in the service menu for a while now. Primarily adjusting values for Vivid and Standard modes. The most significant tweaks for me have been in component (1080i) setting DCP_USER AXIS to 0 (as noted in other posts), DCP_ADJ2 SHFO to 13 (reduces soft PQ adds a bit of edge enhancement) and in USR_NR setting RNRP to 1. I found this last tweak to significantly reduce background noise from my cable signal without reducing PQ. This setting seems to work best with noise reduction set to low in the user menu.

You actually wanted to add edge enhancement to Vivid and Standard? At least on my set with 1080i both of these modes seem to overenhance the edges. Of course I haven't done any of the basic calibrations yet, so I may just be overdoing it on white level.

Maybe it's just my set, but I felt PQ tended to be on the soft side. This value is actually default for several other modes, for example DVI 480I, 480P and component 480p.

nyrjoe,

I agree the set is "soft" OOTB. Have you tried adjusting some of the values I suggested in MID5. The MID circuit is where Sony does a large amount of filtering. Reducing or eliminating filtering is usually better than adding enhancement.

umr,

I went to change MHLC in MID5 for 1080i component and it was already set to 1. I should note that I have the 50we610.

Originally posted by nyrjoe
umr,

I went to change MHLC in MID5 for 1080i component and it was already set to 1. I should note that I have the 50we610.

Was that in PRO mode? I find it strange that Sony would use different settings on different sets. The one I adjusted was apparently one of the first to hit Houston. I wonder if Sony fixed an early mistake and most of those out have this corrected.

Originally posted by Egan
Aww come on, there has got to be someone in umr's neighborhood with a non-XBR GWIII willing to allow umr to try some tweaking. The GWIII owners here would be eternally grateful, I know I would.

My 60WE610 is totally untweaked at this point and I'm still in awe of HD on this TV, but would love to make it the best it can be.

BTW, welcome back umr!!!!!

I am surprised as well. There has to be someone close to umr. I remember when someone offered to fly him to the person's house, but that must have have happened. umr, if you ever get really lost, my TV is still waiting for you in ND. :D

umr,

That was in Vivid, interestingly according to the service manual the default value for component 1080i for both Vivid and Pro is 2. Not sure how mine was set to 1? My POP value was 0. I'll check actual PRO value later tonight. By the way, have any idea what Pro+ represents in the attachment? All other pages in the service manual explicitly state Pro, Mild off or on.

Originally posted by nyrjoe
umr,

That was in Vivid, interestingly according to the service manual the default value for component 1080i for both Vivid and Pro is 2. Not sure how mine was set to 1? My POP value was 0. I'll check actual PRO value later tonight. By the way, have any idea what Pro+ represents in the attachment? All other pages in the service manual explicitly state Pro, Mild off or on.

I am not sure. I would guess Mild on/off, but I do not know. Look up the MIDE value and see which setting matches POP in MID5. That should tell you what is setting what.

The values shown in the manuals frequently do not match what is actually in the sets. That is why you must record the original values even if you have the manual.

POP was 48 for 480i component. I believe POP was 4 for 720p (firewire), but I did not record that one. I liked a POP value of 88 in general. You might want to try that out.

Originally posted by nyrjoe
umr,

That was in Vivid, interestingly according to the service manual the default value for component 1080i for both Vivid and Pro is 2. Not sure how mine was set to 1? My POP value was 0. I'll check actual PRO value later tonight. By the way, have any idea what Pro+ represents in the attachment? All other pages in the service manual explicitly state Pro, Mild off or on.


Please rescan in higher "readable" quality and link again!
would be interested in this page

do you also have the utility and meaning of each service menu setting
in the service manual ?
it would be nice if you could make a small .xls file with all the service menu and their use! :)


hey! welcome back UMR and thanks for the help on setting this display :)
i can't wait to start playing with it more! :)

Originally posted by JinMTVT
...welcome back UMR and thanks for the help on setting this display :)
i can't wait to start playing with it more! :)

This is about all I'll be able to offer since I don't have one here to spend a 100 or more hours on trying to figure out every last service menu item. I did not even get to test all of the inputs, but it is a start. I spent quite a bit of time just looking at the PQ with movies, test material and filters before I did any adjustments. I was trying to get a good idea about what needed to be fixed before I started tweaking.

Hopefully, you guys can expand on what I have done. 720P over firewire looked nearly perfect except for geometry with the tweaks I provided. SD is where there is more room for improvement. My set still looks a little better on SD than what I was able to achieve on the GWIII. I would think you should be able to at least equal the performance of a tweaked GWII.

All of these comments about 480i being better than 480p makes me very suspicious of 480p. It should definitely be better than what I saw on 480i. 480i untweaked was soft. I was also not extreemly impressed with the deinterlacer. My GWII looks cleaner on 480i than what I saw.

Originally posted by compfan
bump just to keep this thread alive(:

No need to bump, I have added this topic to the Sony section of the "Popular Threads" stuck to the top of the forum page.

I am sure it will be an active thread.

WB UMR!

I picked up a 50WE610 (that is to say, non-xbr - I didn't think it'd be worth the extra cash for the XBR) on the big shopping day. I'm still tweaking and learning. I'd be more than happy to let UMR tweak the thing, but I suspect the distance is still far too great (about three hours from Houston area to Austin area). It doesn't help much that I only have a non-PS DVD player, and that' s my only source for test patterns.

Anyway, I've captured *some* of the settings mentioned in the gwii tweak guide, so if anyone else is looking here are the factory values and categories (first number is item number for quick navigation, 2nd number is the actual *factory* value).

DCP-ADJ1
3 RDRV 140
4 GDRV 140
5 BDRV 140
6 RCUT 255
7 GCUT 255
8 BCUT 255
10 SPIC 63
11 SCOL 170

DCP-USER
16 RYB 24
17 RYR 91
18 GYB 91
19 GYR 127

The scale of these values really makes me wish the gwii guide had listed the factory settings as well. UMR's post about the XBR GWIII does have the factory settings listed, and they're the same for the non-XBR. Right now the color on my set is pretty bad, so I won't bother with pictures at this point. The reds (red, magenta color bars) are way overdone, and through the DVE green filter, I see white, yellow, sky blue, yellow, blue, maroon, blue.

Anyone find where the panel switch control is hidden in the SM?

naimis,

Sorry Austin is too far. The values you posted appear to have finer granularity than most of the adjustments in the GWII. The range on the values you posted is either 0-63 or 0-15 in the GWII.

My 50 inch WE610 has been on order for a couple weeks. Thank you, UMR, for the starting point. Have DVE on order also (have an HS10 also, so I'll get some good use out of it). Will see how the DVE tweaking goes, and continue to follow this thread before thinking about more elaborate calibration, for either set. Thanks to everyone for all the contributions to the knowledge base about these sets.
- Mike

UMR,
I have a lot of red wine in my wine closet. If you're visiting Napa Valley, please stop on by....

I have to say that UMR is a really cool guy. Anybody who invites him over will really like him.

He is trully an expert on TV's and sure taught me a bunch in just a few hours.

Give him a week with a TV and he'll tweak it to perfection.

About now, I am really enjoying my set.

If only I had more time to let him tweak my set, but it is looking much better already and I've summoned up enough courage to start tweaking it a bit myself.

Enjoy your TVs and Merry Christmas to you all.

Hi bigscreentv,
What are your UM settings after umr tweaked it? I already adjusted the SM settings according to the first post. I currently use the Pro mode with temp on Warm and no Mild or NR.

Can you please post your....
Picture -
Brigntness -
Color -
Hue -
Sharpness -

Thanks!!

Tough to post the settings, as the new xbr does not have numbers for each of the user settings. Don't know why sony did that.

N3W81E,

It is easy to get the settings. Just reset your settings in PRO mode by pressing the default button. I did my tweaks from that point so it would be easy for anyone to duplicate what I did.

UMR,
OIC, so u didn't calibrate again after doing the reset on Pro. U just left everything as is, and then modified the SM settings. That's what I tried but.....

My problem is this...
I'm using a HTPC w/ATI 9700 thru DVI @ 1304x734 which shows up as 720P. The "color" setting still looks too high, very high red push. Also the white areas when I play a DVD are REALLY bright, and the blacks lose alot of detail. Is this because of the white/black crush I read about when using DVI (somewhere in one of threads)?

Thanks for all your help! :)

N3W81E,

I did not leave everything untouched. The values I posted above were the only changes I made though.

I would try tweaking the color, picture and brightness levels in the PC. I believe some of the folks at Secret's did some testing of HTPC's and had significant problems with levels on all or nearly all that they tested. I am not sure if they posted these results, but I would not be surprised that this would be the case. You really need to look at some test patterns when you examine these things. I tend to use Avia, VE, THX Optimizer, DVE (D-VHS) and Jim Taylor's "DVD Demystified".

My testing with the GWII and a Bravo DVD player in the past showed that double scaling is a bad idea. I would feed any signal native to avoid this problem. DVD's should be fed either 480p or 480i to avoid double scaling.

UMR,

Thanks for all of your help with the DIY calibration. I have a couple of questions for you:

1. You stated that your "testing with the GWII and a Bravo DVD Player is the past showed that double scaling is a bad idea.". My question is that I thought that the Bravo DVD has a costume setting for fixed pixel displays to match their native resolution? Is this not true?

2. I have now had my GWIII 70 XBR for about a month and I am really starting to see what I would call "digitizing of the PQ". I saw it really bad when I was watching a cartoon. It looks like the image is not smooth at all. Have you seen any this on your GWII or the GWIII that you have seen? Can this be fixed?

Sorry if these are stupid questions, but I starting to think I might have made a bad purchase.

Thank for your or anyone’s help on these questions.

Originally posted by kodyklindt
2. I have now had my GWIII 70 XBR for about a month and I am really starting to see what I would call "digitizing of the PQ". I saw it really bad when I was watching a cartoon. It looks like the image is not smooth at all. Have you seen any this on your GWII or the GWIII that you have seen? Can this be fixed?
kodyklindt:

Please describe what you are seeing in more detail? Did you see this before or is this something that has only recently started to occur? Have you made any recent changes to your settings, especially DRC? What is your picture source: DirecTV, OTA, etc.?

The Sony sets have a lot of video processing, enhancements, corrections, etc. that can be turned on and in many cases these will make the PQ worse rather than better.

There is also a chance that you are just seeing an over-compressed satellitte feed (if that is the case). These things are not constant and will change based on where the provider is prioritizing the bandwidth. For example, during Sunday football a lot of channels will go from "okay" to "really suck" due to the increased bandwidth consumption of the Sunday Ticket channels.

Note that I can see some "digitizing" in the form of jaggies, etc. on some channels at certain times, but have pretty much pinned it down to source resolution. I purposely turned off most all enhancements so that my good channels (and DVD/HD) look pristine while accepting some suckiness to channels that started out bad in the first place.

Very odd to see this on cartoons, which generally require a lot less bandwidth to bring them across, but I will note that it is common to see some bad mpeg artifacting even here, like in cases where a character's face will be badly pixelated for a moment and then will refresh with a clean looking image. In that case it is the source, not the TV.

Originally posted by kodyklindt
...1. You stated that your "testing with the GWII and a Bravo DVD Player is the past showed that double scaling is a bad idea.". My question is that I thought that the Bravo DVD has a costume setting for fixed pixel displays to match their native resolution? Is this not true?

2. I have now had my GWIII 70 XBR for about a month and I am really starting to see what I would call "digitizing of the PQ". I saw it really bad when I was watching a cartoon. It looks like the image is not smooth at all. Have you seen any this on your GWII or the GWIII that you have seen? Can this be fixed?
...

With respect to the Bravo it does have the ability to set custom resolutions, but I am unaware of them being recognized by the GWII or GWIII. Without that you will need to output 480p because 1080i and 720p look worse. I really disliked the Bravo I saw mostly because of the user interface and lack of significant PQ improvement.

I would listen to what BTDT said about the digitized look. Normally it is the source, but it can be enhancement from the TV. I saw some jaggy lines on the GWIII XBR that I don't on my GWII when it converted a 480i signal. The deinterlacer on the GWIII looked worse than a tweaked GWII to me. The scaler on both sets look very good. I doubt an external scaler of any use with these TV's. An external deinterlacer (480i to 480p) on the GWIII might have some value though.

umr,
I have been folowing this forum for about 2 months now and purchased the 50we thanks to all of you guys, thanks guys for all the info, should arrive this week.
I see from all the reading that your opinion is highly valued. In a post above you listed the "tweekng" discs that you use. I purchased the SOUND & VISION HOME THEATER TUNE UP DISC for my in home newbie cal. I didn't see it in your user list. What do you think of it?
BTW, if your ever in the ft worth area you are more than welcome to "tweek" away on my 50we. Thanks guys!

Wow, great thread! I never thought I'd actually miss living in Houston again! My 42" GW III needs some tweaks.

Originally posted by vinnyvin_m
...I purchased the SOUND & VISION HOME THEATER TUNE UP DISC for my in home newbie cal. I didn't see it in your user list. What do you think of it?..

I own that one as well, but I don't use it. I believe it is a simplified Avia and does not include the green and red filters. I would not choose it over the others, but it should be sufficient for user menu adjustments. I tend to do a pretty thorough examination of other PQ items that other disks do a better job of.

Well I printed out the initial post in this thread and went to tweak my set today.

In Pro Mode I reset my settings as instructed.

I couldn't change the DRC items listed under User menu. I am unable to change the first 3 items of the advanced menu as they are greyed out. Any idea why? Is it because I am using the DVI Input? What input were you using the day you did these tweaks?

Also, I notice that the picture is not centered vertically on my screen and I was hoping to adjust that in the service menu but saw no VPOS setting anywhere. Any idea what I need to tweak to center my picture? The overscan test in DVE shows that I have horizontal centering issues as well and I'd like to fix both but was unwilling to take any guesses while in the service menu.

The SM items for adjusting the anamorphic (16:9) picture size and position are in the ‘MID1” category:

#1 DHPH – Horizontal Position
#2 DVPH – Vertical Position
#11 MDHS – Horizontal Size
#13 MDVS – Vertical Size

Please note that sometimes the horizontal centering issue may be caused by the DVD player (Panny RP-91, for example), not necessarily the tv.

Thanks for the info Chiifac.

I have a Denon 5900 as my DVD player. It has a limited ability to help center the picture in the player itself so I'll tweak the TV and see how it comes out. I don't really have any sources from my Sony HD300 DirecTV box that can help me align the picture so I'll use the DVD and then check out the Sat feed and see if anything looks amiss.

I'll be sure to write down all values before I change them in case I need to undo it.

Originally posted by kodyklindt
UMR,

I have now had my GWIII 70 XBR for about a month and I am really starting to see what I would call "digitizing of the PQ". I saw it really bad when I was watching a cartoon. It looks like the image is not smooth at all. Have you seen any this on your GWII or the GWIII that you have seen? Can this be fixed?


Just last night when watching The Justice League (Cartoon) on my GWII there were horizontal lines going through the image during fast movements. After fiddling around I noticed that when I turned off the DRC it was no longer there. Are you seeing the same? This does not occur when watching a DVD or an HD image only SD and this is the first time I have seen it.

Steve, were you getting the signal via DirectTV? I noticed some digitization of the picture on my regular analog tv during Justice League: it might not be the set.

When adjusting picture size in the SM (MDVS and MDHS), how are you folks quantifying the resulting change in image size? For example, if I reduce MDVS by 5, is there any way to determine how many pixels (in the vertical) are now being used? Is there a way to determine this with DVE??

I won't be getting my XBR until later this week, hence my questions. I will be trying out an HD Leeza and would like to get 1:1 mapping if at all possible. The closest resolutions supported by the HD Leeza are 1280x720 and 1366x768. I believe I can get 1:1 mapping if I know how much to alter MDHS and MDVS. TIA

EB

XBRSteve:

I get those horizontal artifacts during a quick scene change on my 50"GWII XBR on normal cable channels if 'Cinemotion' is ON. I turn it OFF for normal TV sources and ON for DVD movies.

Seems to work flawlessly that way.

Originally posted by exLabDriver
XBRSteve:

I get those horizontal artifacts during a quick scene change on my 50"GWII XBR on normal cable channels if 'Cinemotion' is ON. I turn it OFF for normal TV sources and ON for DVD movies.

Seems to work flawlessly that way.

I agree with exLabDriver. I this happens to me as well. I've even seen it on DVD when viewing the bonus features. But never on the actual movie or a HD signal.

Originally posted by Philosofy
Steve, were you getting the signal via DirectTV? I noticed some digitization of the picture on my regular analog tv during Justice League: it might not be the set.

It was a directTV feed but it rarely occurs, as a matter of fact this was the first time I have noticed it. But once the DRC was off it was smooth sailing.

N3W81E,

I had the same problem as you. I had my set calibrated by
an ISF technician and color over my DVD player was wonderful--
but crushed blacks, blown-out highlights, and overly red on
my HTPC. This is due to the PC outputting a colorspace that
represents 0-255 for RGB values instead of 16-236 which is
what is used for video.

To fix the problem I used TheaterTek with FFDShow. I use
the scoped settings--(I think 8 for brightness, 105 for contrast,
86 for gamma--in the video menu of TheaterTek. To fix the
colorspace issue, go into FFDShow and check the Levels box.
Then change the slider on output so that it's 16-236. Input
remains at its default 0-255.

Gowry

Would love to see UMR tweaked settings for a non-XBR GWIII. I would volunteer my set for UMR to tweak, but I'm rather far in WA state :)

Just got this set and am very happy but it definately needs some tweeks to rid it of crushed blacks on my DVD DVI in. Not sure where to start on this is there a document posted somewhere?

If you have a Samsung 931 then no amount of tweaks will eliminate the "black crush". Try the same player with component in and you will see a major difference. As I understand it, the problem is that Samsung is using a PC-based range while Sony expects the one defined for televisions. This is not really a black level problem in the Sony but an incompatibility with the player.

Also note that the Pro mode has the best shadow detail due to the elimination of black enhancements that are turned on in Vivid and Standard modes. I have a 60XBR950 and the best picture is through a tweaked Pro mode with no enhancements/corrections.

Just FYI: the sammy TS160 Driectv HD receiver also seems to experience the black crush when using the DVI connector...the component ouputs provide much better black level detail. BTW, The atsc tuner seems to do a pretty good job and also provides much better black levels than the TS160...so if you're a Directv owner looking to do HD *via DVI* and are *really* concerned about black levels, stay away from the TS160.

Doug

Well I had my first xbr replaced because:
a) the screen was crooked/not level
b) there were finder print type smears on the inside
c) misconvergence

Well my new set is fine with regards to a,b,c , but I got a pretty decent size grouping of darkend pixels (maybe 8-10 of them, need to really count) about 3 inches down from the top and maybe 10-12" in from the right. It is clearly visible on a light/white background from 10' away. Is this "normal"/within tolerance? The pixels aren't actually stuck just darkened and don't appear visible on darker scenes/colors, but put a white/light background and it look like a smudge you vis what to wipe off. I know all/most sets will have this, but a grouping this close together is not what I expected.

BTW, my old xbr had them as well, but only a grouping the size of 3 pixels.

Doug

frottage:

Are you sure it isn't actually a smudge, rather than questionable pixels?

first off, sorry to drift OT, I thought I was in the xbr users thread--I'll blame Mozilla and tab browsing :)

This is not a smudge...they are darkend pixels...almost as if the "brighness" had been turned down on them.

Originally posted by frottage
Just FYI: the sammy TS160 Driectv HD receiver also seems to experience the black crush when using the DVI connector...the component ouputs provide much better black level detail. BTW, The atsc tuner seems to do a pretty good job and also provides much better black levels than the TS160...so if you're a Directv owner looking to do HD *via DVI* and are *really* concerned about black levels, stay away from the TS160.

Doug

The black crush you are seeing with the DVI input is likely the difference in brightness and picture level settings required for DVI versus component. Don't ask me to explain this, but both my GWII and the GWIII XBR I tweaked required service menu biases to adjust for this. These are shown in the first post of this thread.

Received my 70XBR950 yesterday...right off the bat noticed that convergence is off in the upper right corner, however, this is only visible when I'm right up at the set, and even then the convergence is only one-pixel width - the upper left, and lower left corner convergence is also off but but not as bad as the upper right. Viewing the set from my seating (16 feet away), the convergence issue is not visible.

The big stickler is geometry - its off in several places. First of all the image seems to have a tilt - on avia's overscan test pattern, looking at the right and left side of the image, the top part of the image has less horizontal overscan than the bottom part of the image (I hope that made sense - the other way to think of this is that the image looks like its framed in a trapezoid).

Also the top part of the image bows - again looking at the top part of the image on avia's overscan pattern, if I set overscan at 5% at the corner, the top middle part bows down and has overscan of about 3%.

All of these flaws are not visible when watching normal DVDs, TV etc., and hence are not necessarily an issue except for the bowing flaw - any DVD with an AR of higher than 1.85:1 will have black bars on the top that bow in the middle...and this is obvious no matter where I sit - 16 feet away or 2 feet away...

Any way to fix this? I already went through quite a battle with Sony to get this set after I asked them to replace my 65XBR2...it seems that I'm stuck with another poor quality product that cost alot...

I have the same issues as Haroon. My geometry is mostly ok except for the bow at the top. And on test patterns, my convergence is marginal at best. I'm wondering if there are any solutions to fix either problem.

Replacing the set is probably just asking for a different set of problems, ie. stuck pixels. Since I have no visible stuck pixels, I'm inclined to live with it. Any suggestions?

Does anyone have the Item #s for Service Menu (GWIII)

Category MID5:

items MVLS and MHLC?

Thanks

Newbie with KF-50WE610 delivered Dec. 19, build December 2003 LA2, SN 9110202, "assembled in USA", no buzz, 4 green flashes then ON

Picture seem to have "ghosting " on text that kind of looks like EE. Used DVE, had to reduce sharpness to 1 to eliminate "ghosting", but now picture looks soft.

Have been following forum for awhile, and went into the service menu to make tweaks. AAARRRRGGGHHH!! The categories in the service menu do not match what I've seen in the posts. The categories are CCPM-1 thru CCPM-10 plus CH-SET. The firmware appears to be LCD PJ Engine Ver.10.00B 03/06/30 662F. I ordered the service manual today.

I would appreciate any information the members might have.

P.S. UMR, I live north of I-10 Katy Freeway near Beltway 8 & Clay Road if you're interested in tweaking a 50WE610.

you have to cycle thru a number of categories, but they are in alphabetic order. Now, can you answer my question when you get your SM?.....thanks.

Originally posted by raah
Newbie with KF-50WE610 delivered Dec. 19, build December 2003 LA2, SN 9110202, "assembled in USA", no buzz, 4 green flashes then ON

Picture seem to have "ghosting " on text that kind of looks like EE. Used DVE, had to reduce sharpness to 1 to eliminate "ghosting", but now picture looks soft.

Have been following forum for awhile, and went into the service menu to make tweaks. AAARRRRGGGHHH!! The categories in the service menu do not match what I've seen in the posts. The categories are CCPM-1 thru CCPM-10 plus CH-SET. The firmware appears to be LCD PJ Engine Ver.10.00B 03/06/30 662F. I ordered the service manual today.

I would appreciate any information the members might have.

P.S. UMR, I live north of I-10 Katy Freeway near Beltway 8 & Clay Road if you're interested in tweaking a 50WE610.

Oh lord, please let UMR take you up on this offer. I would love a "UMR's guide to tweaking the GWIII"!

There are 28 items in MID5:

POP : #0
MHFM : #1
MVFM : #2
MVLS : #3
MHLC : #4
MVLC : #5
....

I just PM'd raah. We'll see what we can work out.

Don't forget this thread was started for the XBR GWIII's not the WE sets.

Originally posted by umr
I just PM'd raah. We'll see what we can work out.

Don't forget this thread was started for the XBR GWIII's not the WE sets.

i can keep my fingers crossed and slowly manipulate this thread into a "UMR does the GWIII *WE*"...LOL!

Originally posted by umr
I have no comments about the per input type basis other than those I posted.

We noticed the same problem with "mild" mode. I have no idea what is happening here.

My contact with these sets is limited to the four hour session and the observations I posted. I do believe the tweaks I posted are worth doing if you want to achieve a high quality picture. The resolution on 480i will be poor, 720p/1080i resolution will be really poor and the colors will be off on HD if you choose not to correct these problems in the service menu.

How does one get to the SM? Do I need to buy a manual?

Thanks
Dom

In case it helps anyone, I put together a list of my SM settings a while ago to help me navigate through categories and item numbers. There are more settings that follow this list, but it contains all the information necessary to get through UMR's suggested setting changes. I don't know if your factory settings are the same or not, and although I tried very hard not to make typos, I don't know if there are any mistakes. Anyways, here it is. Hopefully it helps.

Originally posted by chiifac
There are 28 items in MID5:

POP : #0
MHFM : #1
MVFM : #2
MVLS : #3
MHLC : #4
MVLC : #5
....
Thanks Chiifac (and Junior Jam), much appreciated.

UMR, the fact that you help out the many Sony owners here "is" the main reason I bought a Grand Wega III. Thank you for being here......Everyone have a merry xmas.

Originally posted by junior_jam
In case it helps anyone, I put together a list of my SM settings a while ago to help me navigate through categories and item numbers. There are more settings that follow this list, but it contains all the information necessary to get through UMR's suggested setting changes. I don't know if your factory settings are the same or not, and although I tried very hard not to make typos, I don't know if there are any mistakes. Anyways, here it is. Hopefully it helps.

Thanks for the info.

It looks like you can turn the individual panels off. I would try GON, RON, BON in DCP-INT if you are adventurous.

Originally posted by junior_jam
In case it helps anyone, I put together a list of my SM settings a while ago to help me navigate through categories and item numbers. There are more settings that follow this list, but it contains all the information necessary to get through UMR's suggested setting changes. I don't know if your factory settings are the same or not, and although I tried very hard not to make typos, I don't know if there are any mistakes. Anyways, here it is. Hopefully it helps.

So is it generally agreed that UMR's GWII SM settings work well for the the GWIII?

His link shows GWIII XBR.

Are you referring to the XBR or non XBR model?

Does it matter?

I'm referring to the Non-XBR. I want to know if I use junior_jam's list of tweaks they will be optimal for the GWIII. AFAIK, they are just a direct translation of UMR's GWII tweaks.

Originally posted by bobby_t1
I'm referring to the Non-XBR. I want to know if I use junior_jam's list of tweaks they will be optimal for the GWIII. AFAIK, they are just a direct translation of UMR's GWII tweaks.

All I saw junior_jam post was a list of service menu items not how to tweak them.

UMR
You mentioned shutting off each gun... What would that allow you to tweak? The color decoder?

Originally posted by buddster
UMR
You mentioned shutting off each gun... What would that allow you to tweak? The color decoder?

That is useful for the color decoder and gray scale.

With the blue gun off and a gray screen the screen should look lemon yellow. You can tweak the green and red levels to set their mix in gray. Turn on the blue to tweak the screen to a gray.

Operating with only one gun allows you to set the level of that color and its level in its complements when you display color bars. Setting the gray scale should be done first.

Originally posted by umr
Thanks for the info.

It looks like you can turn the individual panels off. I would try GON, RON, BON in DCP-INT if you are adventurous.

I'm not entirely sure what I *should* see if the individual panels are disabled, but I didn't see what i was expecting. What I would expect to see when changing those settings from 1 to 0 (the only two values that are available) is an immediate change in the picture that very much looks like a CRT with a gun off. Like, turning off the red panel, I'd expect to see a picture that was mostly green. I didn't see any noticable change in the picture when changing these settings, so I'm guessing that they don't disable the panels :-(

Am I just not understanding what I *should* be seeing? Is there maybe something you have to do to make the change actually take effect? Anyone? :-) This is on a 50WE610, BTW.

Originally posted by naimis
I'm not entirely sure what I *should* see if the individual panels are disabled, but I didn't see what i was expecting. What I would expect to see when changing those settings from 1 to 0 (the only two values that are available) is an immediate change in the picture that very much looks like a CRT with a gun off. Like, turning off the red panel, I'd expect to see a picture that was mostly green. I didn't see any noticable change in the picture when changing these settings, so I'm guessing that they don't disable the panels :-(

Am I just not understanding what I *should* be seeing? Is there maybe something you have to do to make the change actually take effect? Anyone? :-) This is on a 50WE610, BTW.

I'm with you on this. I started a thread on a possible color decoder problem because I was having weird results with Green while using DVE color filter card. (UMR, I was out of town until this evening so that's why I didn't respond in that thread. Since color decoding seems to be a common question maybe we can talk about it in here?) I'd love to know how to check and set green/red without using DVE. It's not clear to me that the DVE filters are "compatible" with these Sony LCD tv's and therefore using them for reference will cause erroneous results. (and possible insanity of their users) :)

- Peter

I just tried the RON... settings on a WE GWIII and it did not work. Just set AXIS to 0 with color and tint at 50% (default values) and all should be well. I have done this on a WE and XBR GWIII and it looked fine on 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i.

Today I spent about 6 hours working on a 50" GWIII WE set. This set had a Dish 501 PVR, Panasonic progressive DVD player and a D-VHS deck.

I was not able to bring the 480p input up to being close to the 480i quality. It had terrible enhancement on it. I would not recommend using a 480p (progressive) DVD player at this time. This might be different with a DVI input, but I doubt it.

I was able to make significant improvements in the video quality of 480i and HD inputs. The 480i inputs benefited from the tweaks shown in the first post of this thread and looked as good as my GWII in the end. The HD inputs once tweaked looked just like my GWII and worse than the GWIII XBR.

We did tweak the gray scale using a system similar the the SMART system, but based on measurements from my GWII. The results were excellent. The gray scale while not perfectly even was better than my set.

The gamma looked good so I left it alone.

The contrast ratio on this set measured 360:1. A little short of a filter tweaked GWII (400:1), but still better than an untweaked GWII (300:1). This set is very bright and needs significant room lighting to offset the high black level. A neutral density filter could be used to allow lower room lighting.

Hi UMR,

A few quick questions:

1. The picture looked better w/ the lights on? I thought that LCD projectors look best in a dark environment?

2. You mentioned the 480i input looked better. Is this due to superior processing in the Sony or crappy progressive processing in the player?
I have a Denon 2900 would you recommend using progressive or interlaced?

My TV is on order so I can't try it out yet. BTW, is anyone using the 5900 DVI with their Sony?

-Brian

Originally posted by Bghead8che
Hi UMR,

A few quick questions:

1. The picture looked better w/ the lights on? I thought that LCD projectors look best in a dark environment?

2. You mentioned the 480i input looked better. Is this due to superior processing in the Sony or crappy progressive processing in the player?
I have a Denon 2900 would you recommend using progressive or interlaced?

My TV is on order so I can't try it out yet. BTW, is anyone using the 5900 DVI with their Sony?

-Brian

No. LCD RPTV's tend to have bright blacks. Significant room lighting is necessary to offset this.

It is not the progressive processing in the TV or the player it is some kind of enhancement in the TV that dramatically effected resolution. I would use 480i instead of 480p until an adjustment can be found to fix this problem.

The deinterlacing in the TV is not as good as my XP30, but that pales in comparison to the enhancement problem. We were able to make the 480i input look very good. I doubt many people would notice its short comings.

Weird. I wonder if it is a setting or the TV hardware itself? Does adjusting the sharpness setting or DNR help?

-Brian

Originally posted by Bghead8che
Weird. I wonder if it is a setting or the TV hardware itself? Does adjusting the sharpness setting or DNR help?

-Brian

Nope. I believe it is a setting somewhere in the service menu maze. I could not figure out why so many people were preferring interlaced. Now I see why. 480p is a wreck on the set I looked at.

One more question while I have your attention.

How would you rate the "out of the box" performance of the 60XBR950?

I don't have an ISF tech in my area so I will only be able to use the Avia tune up disc. In your opinion, can you get decent performance as is?

-Brian

Originally posted by Bghead8che
One more question while I have your attention.

How would you rate the "out of the box" performance of the 60XBR950?

I don't have an ISF tech in my area so I will only be able to use the Avia tune up disc. In your opinion, can you get decent performance as is?

-Brian

Read the first post in this thread. I think it captures my views.

I would not be happy with OTB performance, but I guess some would. You can get decent preformance if you are willing to go in the service menu.

UMR, i would extremely like to konw how exactly you adjust the greyscale.
Do you have specific tools ?

and what kind of measuring tools would you recommend?

I may want to invest a little on good tools to be able to tweak the displays of my familly and friends , could charge them just a little so at the ends it pays the tools :P

Also, does the grayscale need to be adjsuted seperatly for HD and for NTSC? cause after seeing the color scales, the scales seems to be different by alot!

neway, if you have some thread or some info to point me to, it would be wonderfull!

and if you could list some of the SM item you used to get the good results out of this TV.

JinMTVT,

The method I used is only going to be valid on these sets because I used red, green and blue ratios based on my set which uses very similar devices. I also did the final cleanup by eye balling it based on my experience of looking at D65 for a while. Unless we can figure out how to turn off the panels in these sets it will be very difficult to accurately adjust the gray scale.

I used an AEMC CA813 light meter, AVIA colored filters and the gray ramp on THX Optimizer. I adjusted the drives and cuts until the brightest square on the right and the next to dimmest square on the right measured in the following ratios. Blue is 6.84% of Green, Red is 61.8% of Green. I then tweaked the red drive a little after looking at some gray ramps on DVE on D-VHS. This resulted in a very nice looking gray instead of the too blue neutral or too red warm we started with. I doubt many on the forum would have success with this based on what I have seen here to date.

I added the service menu items to the first post in this thread.

Here is a link to the SMART system which is similar to what I did.

http://www.smartavtweaks.com/Intro_new.html

Originally posted by JinMTVT
...does the grayscale need to be adjsuted seperatly for HD and for NTSC? cause after seeing the color scales, the scales seems to be different by alot!....

No. They should be the same.

where is the latest guide on how to use and nav the service menu? Now that UMR has confirmed the tweaks work well for the WE (non-XBR) I am going to venture into the SM for the first time and apply the listed settings in the first post.

UMR

Couldn't find it in your first post in this thread.

Did you find using "cool", "neutral" or "warm" a better starting place to make your grayscale adjustments from?

Originally posted by JimP
UMR

Couldn't find it in your first post in this thread.

Did you find using "cool", "neutral" or "warm" a better starting place to make your grayscale adjustments from?

I started with neutral only because when you hit reset that is what the default color temperature is. I prefer to set everything off of reset so you can return to the tweaked values with minimum effort. I was not able to find where to set a few of the user menu defaults in the service menu so changes in those are listed in the tweaks. When you hit reset after tweaking the set you must go in and modify those settings (Mild Off, Cinemotion).

UMR

Regarding the problems with the enhancements in 480P, is it more likely an issue of the DVD player or the TV?

Originally posted by JimP
UMR

Regarding the problems with the enhancements in 480P, is it more likely an issue of the DVD player or the TV?

I believe it is the TV. I have never seen a DVD player from Panasonic look like that. I have seen the GWII and GWIII do what I saw. I was able to get around the problem in the GWII, but not the GWIII so far.

Originally posted by bobby_t1
where is the latest guide on how to use and nav the service menu? Now that UMR has confirmed the tweaks work well for the WE (non-XBR) I am going to venture into the SM for the first time and apply the listed settings in the first post.

I just updated the first post in this thread with more info on how to do these tweaks. I would not do them unless you clearly understand what I am talking about.

Originally posted by bobby_t1
where is the latest guide on how to use and nav the service menu? Now that UMR has confirmed the tweaks work well for the WE (non-XBR) I am going to venture into the SM for the first time and apply the listed settings in the first post.

Bobby;

How does one get to the SM to implement umr's tweaks?

Please send PM if need be.

Thanks
Dom

Originally posted by Dominus
Bobby;

How does one get to the SM to implement umr's tweaks?

Please send PM if need be.

Thanks
Dom

READ THE FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD!

UMR

I also live in Sugar Land (Greatwood, actually) and am having a GWIII 42" delivered soon. I'm willinig to play guinea pig.

Originally posted by jcnuke
UMR

I also live in Sugar Land (Greatwood, actually) and am having a GWIII 42" delivered soon. I'm willinig to play guinea pig.

Man are you close. I already had all the guinea pigs I need at this point. Sorry.

Originally posted by umr
READ THE FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD!

Thanks umr.

I have been reading these threads from the get-go but these instructions were not there orignally. They must have been added at a later date to which I apologize for not checking back.

UMR,
Any reason you start with the PRO mode? Sony's manual recommends PRO for low-quality source, so I thought PRO mode would have more filtering and "picture improvement" enabled by default, compared to STANDARD. Am I wrong?

Originally posted by IlyaV
UMR,
Any reason you start with the PRO mode? Sony's manual recommends PRO for low-quality source, so I thought PRO mode would have more filtering and "picture improvement" enabled by default, compared to STANDARD. Am I wrong?

I don't agree with Sony on this. PRO is usually the mode with the least enhancement. It also appears to have the gamma setting closest to 2.2.

Do these modes differ in SM settings only, or do they have some internal differences that cannot be changed even through the SM? What's your current understanding?
In other words, is this just a question of a starting point, or is it something deeper than that?

Originally posted by IlyaV
Do these modes differ in SM settings only, or do they have some internal differences that cannot be changed even through the SM? What's your current understanding?
In other words, is this just a question of a starting point, or is it something deeper than that?

I believe it is only service mode and user mode settings, but it can be complex to find everything that is effected.

I updated the info on the first post to include the original values and the tweaked values for the WE set.

umr -

I'm so confused...I held my breath this evening and went into my 60WE610 GWIII's SM to implement your tweaks in Pro mode, and now that I've made ALL your recommended changes, I still find the Pro mode to be way too soft and "dim." My wife even confirmed my thoughts when she said she still prefers the old Vivid and Std. modes as well. I know it saved the changes (it displayed the red "write" in the upper right-hand corner when I saved the settings for DVI (HD-200 satellite/OTA receiver input) and Video 5 (DVD currently set to 480i). The only strange thing I noticed is that the SM listed the DVI as Video 6 and the DVD as Video 1, but both were displaying images from their respective inputs when I made my changes in the SM (and I've turned the other inputs off, so it goes from Ch.3 to DVD (Video 5) to Satellite (DVI-Video 7)).

Did I miss something or is that just what other people prefer (a softer, less bright picture for darker room viewing)? Currently (on my GWIII), the other modes (Vivid and Std.) still show much more detail and are much sharper and brighter. Please advise. :confused: Thank you.

bsgoren

Same thing here on my 60" set. Felt that it was too soft and returned SM to factory defaults except for axis(used 0) and returned user menu to where I had it only changing DMC to cinemotion and adjusted one of the DMC palate. Still a nice improvement. I played around in the grayscale just to see how it works on this set. Interesting, when the grayscale is corrected then some of my cable channels when from too cool to about right while others went from looking good to off color(thanks to NTSC). Same thing on Voom satellite.

bsgoren,

Did you calibrate the picture and brightness settings with test patterns? My values should not be used directly.

Did you look at a sharpness pattern while adjusting the enhancement values?

You should be able to see a big difference between resolution patterns on your calibrated Pro mode and the others. The gamma for the other modes is higher. You should be able to tweak the gamma in Pro mode if you want to change it.

I saw nothing soft in the final picture we ended up with. The details were much greater than before on SD, HD and DVD. The untweaked set limited out at about 4.5 Mhz while the new settings go up to 6.75 Mhz.

Originally posted by umr
bsgoren,

Did you calibrate the picture and brightness settings with test patterns? My values should not be used directly.

Did you look at a sharpness pattern while adjusting the enhancement values?

You should be able to see a big difference between resolution patterns on your calibrated Pro mode and the others. The gamma for the other modes is higher. You should be able to tweak the gamma in Pro mode if you want to change it.

I saw nothing soft in the final picture we ended up with. The details were much greater than before on SD, HD and DVD. The untweaked set limited out at about 4.5 Mhz while the new settings go up to 6.75 Mhz.

I haven't re-tweaked the UM in Pro mode yet after I did the changes in SM...was I suppose to do that before making the changes? I believe I was suppose to bring the default settings back to the Pro mode and then change the SM settings, right? I will tweak the UM settings tomorrow, but I did modify the UM settings a bit tonight and the picture still seems much too soft and dim. I think I currently have my Contrast up to about 80%, Brightness to about 55% and Sharpness at about 52% (all rough estimates). I'm sure the black levels are better with the changes, but the Vivid and Std modes still seem much sharper and brighter. I'll let you know tomorrow after I recalibrate with the test patterns and make sure my changes were saved. Thank you.

bsgoren,

This is a direct quote from my post. USHP is the user mode setting for sharpness. You must adjust it to what YOU like while you are in the service menu.

The user sharpness setting (USHP) is interactive with several other service menu values (SHF0, MVLS, MHLC). The set will appear too soft if you use a 0 value for USHP without changing the other service menu values to the values listed. You may also prefer more enhancement than a value 0 for USHP offers after all of the other values are changed.

Here is another quote. In other words don't use my values directly for UPIC and UBRT. These are the user mode settings for Picture and Brightness. YOU MUST SET THESE BASED ON TEST PATTERNS WHILE YOU ARE IN THE SERVICE MENU!

Several of the following items should be tuned to your set with test patterns. These include brightness, picture and gray scale. Gray scale is very difficult to adjust without test equipment and should be avoided unless you have some test equipment.

I would use the THX Optimizer patterns to set picture and brightness. These can be found on Monsters Inc. and Star Wars II along with many other of the newer THX certified DVD's. Increase UPIC only as high as the color of gray remains constant. Adjust UBRT per the instructions on THX Optimizer. These settings will need to be revisited if you adjust the gray scale.

The picture level on the WE set was 92 % in the end and brightness was 73%, but set yours based on test patterns.

I have a Momitsu V880 with a 60" XBR950. The picture is phenomenal through DVI. UMR mentioned that this set would look best at 480p, rather than being scaled to 720p or 1080i. I left it at 480p for a while, then decided to do some testing to see which mode looked best. It turns out that 720p looks slightly cleaner than 480p. It's not a huge difference, but it's noticeable. I used several dvd's, but the difference was most noticeable on The Matrix Reloaded. I applied UMR's tweaks to my set - much thanks to UMR. If you're going to use a D1 or V880 with the XBR, try all three modes, but I think you'll find 720p to be your best bet.

buddster,

Actually, I am recommending not to use 480p on this set. It has problems I have not been able to fix. I would use 480i, but I don't believe that is supported on the DVI input. 720p on DVI is probably going to be the best on that input, but I believe a tweaked 480i input will be the best for DVDs until we can fix the problem with 480p.

I was not able to bring the 480p input up to being close to the 480i quality. It had terrible enhancement on closely spaced horizontal lines. I would not recommend using a 480p (progressive) DVD player at this time. This might be different with a DVI input, but I doubt it.

Originally posted by umr
bsgoren,

This is a direct quote from my post. USHP is the user mode setting for sharpness. You must adjust it to what YOU like while you are in the service menu.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The user sharpness setting (USHP) is interactive with several other service menu values (SHF0, MVLS, MHLC). The set will appear too soft if you use a 0 value for USHP without changing the other service menu values to the values listed. You may also prefer more enhancement than a value 0 for USHP offers after all of the other values are changed.

Here is another quote. In other words don't use my values directly for UPIC and UBRT. These are the user mode settings for Picture and Brightness. YOU MUST SET THESE BASED ON TEST PATTERNS WHILE YOU ARE IN THE SERVICE MENU!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Several of the following items should be tuned to your set with test patterns. These include brightness, picture and gray scale. Gray scale is very difficult to adjust without test equipment and should be avoided unless you have some test equipment.

I would use the THX Optimizer patterns to set picture and brightness. These can be found on Monsters Inc. and Star Wars II along with many other of the newer THX certified DVD's. Increase UPIC only as high as the color of gray remains constant. Adjust UBRT per the instructions on THX Optimizer. These settings will need to be revisited if you adjust the gray scale.


The picture level on the WE set was 92 % in the end and brightness was 73%, but set yours based on test patterns.

umr -

This may be a dumb question, so forgive my naivty, but how would I adjust these SM settings (USHP, UPIC, & UBRT) for HD (e.g. - my HD-200 sat/ota receiver connected via DVI) while looking at the THX Optimizer test patterns on DVD (Video 5)? :confused:

Also, I know I changed the other SM values as well (SHF0, MLVS, and MHLC along with changing USHP from 36 to 0). So, if I prefer a sharper picture, which way do I go for more enhancement than a value 0 (default = 36) for USHP? Thank you.

Originally posted by bsgoren
umr -

This may be a dumb question, so forgive my naivty, but how would I adjust these SM settings (USHP, UPIC, & UBRT) for HD (e.g. - my HD-200 sat/ota receiver connected via DVI) while looking at the THX Optimizer test patterns on DVD (Video 5)? :confused:

Also, I know I changed the other SM values as well (SHF0, MLVS, and MHLC along with changing USHP from 36 to 0). So, if I prefer a sharper picture, which way do I go for more enhancement than a value 0 (default = 36) for USHP? Thank you.

HD on DVI needs to have UBOF adjusted to correct for a brightness problem on DVI. Unless you have DVE on D-VHS you will not be able to use a test pattern on HD. I would suggest you start with the UBOF value I listed and adjust from there based on some dark shows.


USHP, UPIC, & UBRT should be set for the DVD input only. These settings are not unique for each input. These are the default user menu values.

USHP should be increased to increase the sharpness. USHP has a range of 0 to 63. I would not alter SHF0, MVLS or MHLC from the values shown in the tweaks.

Originally posted by umr
HD on DVI needs to have UBOF adjusted to correct for a brightness problem on DVI. Unless you have DVE on D-VHS you will not be able to use a test pattern on HD. I would suggest you start with the UBOF value I listed and adjust from there based on some dark shows.


USHP, UPIC, & UBRT should be set for the DVD input only. These settings are not unique for each input. These are the default user menu values.

USHP should be increased to increase the sharpness. USHP has a range of 0 to 63. I would not alter SHF0, MVLS or MHLC from the values shown in the tweaks.

umr -

I will try your suggestions and let you know later. Thank you very much for your help and Happy New Year! :)

This is my first post to the forum. I just picked up a 50" GWIII last week, and this place has been an invaluable resource for me. umr, I've implemented your tweaks with great success. DVDs look fantastic now, with excellent shadow detail and reasonable blacks. One thing I've noticed, both with the SM tweaks and UM settings, is that my Brightness settings are nowhere near what others seem to be using. Maybe my eyes are just more sensitive to light and color (I do CGI for a living), or maybe my TV is abnormally bright, but I have my UBRT set to 24 after calibration with the THX Optimizer. Weird. I must say that I'm quite disappointed that the 480p mode has issues. Now that the TV is tweaked, 480i does look great, but it's rather disconcerting that 480p can't be brought to even an equal level of performance. I hope someone figures this one out sooner than later, as I look forward to another echelon of fidelity that a well-tuned 480p signal should theoretically provide.

Anyway, just wanted to praise the virtues of this community. Great stuff, fellas, keep it coming.

Has anyone noticed a slight greenish tinge in the lower right corner of their GWIII? It is only noticeable on a dark scene or totally dark screen. It's not bad but it's a bit annoying. I had the same (but worse) problem on a Sony KLW9000 LCD set about 4 years back and hoped Sony had fixed this problem. It doesn't look like the case though :( I'm also noticing (again on a dark scene) an area at the top of the screen (about 4 or 5 inches) that is brighter than the rest of the screen. It runs the whole length of the picture at the top. I have the 60inch non XBR GWIII.

Marc.

I just updated the tweaks to include a procedure to help those who are struggling. I have not tested it so it could be flawed. Be careful it might have some mistakes.

Originally posted by Marc D Carra
Has anyone noticed a slight greenish tinge in the lower right corner of their GWIII? It is only noticeable on a dark scene or totally dark screen. It's not bad but it's a bit annoying. I had the same (but worse) problem on a Sony KLW9000 LCD set about 4 years back and hoped Sony had fixed this problem. It doesn't look like the case though :( I'm also noticing (again on a dark scene) an area at the top of the screen (about 4 or 5 inches) that is brighter than the rest of the screen. It runs the whole length of the picture at the top. I have the 60inch non XBR GWIII.

Marc.

Marc,
You actually owned the first generation of these sets. Very cool.:cool: As you know these are actually the fourth generation technology. They just changed the name after the KWL series. Unfortunately, what you are seeing is common on LCD RPTV's. Uneven display color is a feature/flaw of this technology. They all have it to some degree or another at this point. The GWIII's seem to have it less than most I have seen though.

Yup, UMR, I actually had two KLW9000's. They were waaaaayyy ahead of their time. I boought mine from Medical Video Systems. At the time it was an amazing price for a set of that quality.

So the green fog thing is just something I should live with then? It is nowhere near as bad as it used to be on the 9000. The 9000 fog actually tinted the color of the picture to green. The GWIII fog doesn't seem to affect anything but an unlit area of the screen. I guess I should count myself lucky that I have no dead or stuck pixels!

Marc.

UMR:

as you might already know, some of use HTPC user are still trying to achieve 1:1 mapping with the GWIII sets ..

this has not been yet achieved on the horiztontal, but the vertical was taken care of.

Would you happen to know of any SM settings that would alter the total processed pixel lines ( horizontally ) or help us scale the horizontal resolution in a lower increment

CIE: right now the best we can do is set powerstrip to shoot out something in between 1304-1360 ( multiples of 8 restricted by the video cards:( )
and then use the MID:4 settings to scaled down up to the closest to perfect horiztoncal mapping, but i am afraid that the incremental adjustments limits us to non matching resolutions wich end in less than perfect mapping.

I am unaware of the function of all the MID:4 settings
( used only form MID4: 0 to 3 ) it may reside in there

also i seen that there are adjustements on the total resolution in the PJ ENGINE section .. wasn't able to get any results when i tried it though

what would you suggest?
thanks :)

Originally posted by Marc D Carra
Yup, UMR, I actually had two KLW9000's. They were waaaaayyy ahead of their time. I boought mine from Medical Video Systems. At the time it was an amazing price for a set of that quality.

So the green fog thing is just something I should live with then? It is nowhere near as bad as it used to be on the 9000. The 9000 fog actually tinted the color of the picture to green. The GWIII fog doesn't seem to affect anything but an unlit area of the screen.

Marc.

You could shift the color of the whole screen by adding a color correction filter to the light path. I would increase the background light level. This will reduce the apparent intensity of black and reduce your sensitivity to it color. A neutral density filter is another option that would be similar to room lighting if you don't want to go that route. Adding a filter would require dissembling the TV though.

JinMTVT,

I have seen some of the posts on modifying geometry. They make sense to me. I don't want to discuss those here because they do have a better chance of rendering a set useless than the other adjustments I have listed for little benefit. I don't think I can offer much more though than what you guys have already tried. I would suggest you implement the tweaks in the first post on this thread. These should improve the resolution on your HTPC's considerably.

Originally posted by Daez Nutz
This is my first post to the forum. I just picked up a 50" GWIII last week, and this place has been an invaluable resource for me. umr, I've implemented your tweaks with great success. DVDs look fantastic now, with excellent shadow detail and reasonable blacks. One thing I've noticed, both with the SM tweaks and UM settings, is that my Brightness settings are nowhere near what others seem to be using. Maybe my eyes are just more sensitive to light and color (I do CGI for a living), or maybe my TV is abnormally bright, but I have my UBRT set to 24 after calibration with the THX Optimizer. Weird. I must say that I'm quite disappointed that the 480p mode has issues. Now that the TV is tweaked, 480i does look great, but it's rather disconcerting that 480p can't be brought to even an equal level of performance. I hope someone figures this one out sooner than later, as I look forward to another echelon of fidelity that a well-tuned 480p signal should theoretically provide.

Anyway, just wanted to praise the virtues of this community. Great stuff, fellas, keep it coming.

Thanks for the feedback. Nice to see someone has benefited from this thread. It is a shame about 480p.

umr or anyone else - when you're doing your set calibration, do you ever have the reference material running through any kind of switch (component or DVI)? I currently use a receiver that doesn't have component switching built in, but I've been thinking about upgrading. I'm concerned about the potential for signal loss, since component is (I believe) an analog signal.

If you don't run the reference signal through a switch when calibrating, what about afterward? I really miss the convenience I had with my old set of only having to change one device instead of having to switch the audio device on the receiver and the video device on the TV. Add to that the fact that I have three component video devices and the 50WE610 only has two inputs, and you end up with a really inconvenient set up.

My apologies if this question has been addressed elsewhere. I'm still trying to make it through the hundreds of messages on the GWIII owners thread.

naimis,

I personally avoid switches, but high quality ones along with cable should be fine. People have had some trouble with DVI switches. DVI does not have error correction so it can have significant problems.

Originally posted by umr

HD on DVI needs to have UBOF adjusted to correct for a brightness problem on DVI. Unless you have DVE on D-VHS you will not be able to use a test pattern on HD. I would suggest you start with the UBOF value I listed and adjust from there based on some dark shows.


USHP, UPIC, & UBRT should be set for the DVD input only. These settings are not unique for each input. These are the default user menu values.

USHP should be increased to increase the sharpness. USHP has a range of 0 to 63. I would not alter SHF0, MVLS or MHLC from the values shown in the tweaks.

Originally posted by bsgoren
umr -

I will try your suggestions and let you know later. Thank you very much for your help and Happy New Year! :)

umr -

OK...so I re-did your UM tweaks according to your newly posted step-by-step instructions and saved evrything (again). Funny, because most of my previous changes were in fact saved, but there were some which didn't save before, so that could explain the "soft" picture I complained about after my first go at it.

Anyhow, yes, the PQ looks better and it's fairly sharp now; interesting, because your Pro mode SM tweaks seems to help the black-level and black crush issues, and although the picture isn't nearly as soft as it was, the Vivid mode still seems to "pop" a bit more because of the higher contrast and enhanced edges and outlines. I set the USHP for dvd to 55 (instead of 0) according to my tastes on the sharpness test patternand all the others I set according your suggested new values. BTW - in the original GWIII tweaks, you suggested the SHFO be changed to 15, while in your new step-by-step instructions, you mention it be changed to 0...I tested this and 0 was way too blurry...it moved the vertical lines way out, so I changed it back to 15 as I'm guessing this was just a typo since you probably spent a long time looking the your pc monitor while typing this stuff in so many times and just made a typo :D .

So, in the end for me, the new Pro mode (with your suggested SM tweaks) is much better than the old default Pro mode and does fix or improve on several issues with the GWIII. I may end up alternating between the Pro mode and Vivid depending on how the material looks. The new Pro mode seems to have more of a movie-like quality with corrected tones, colors, highlights, and blacks, while the Vivid seems to accent the outlines and edges more and have a higher contrast so things tend to "pop" more. I wonder if you could try tweaking the Vivid mode one day...just for fun of course :D It's quite obvious you've spent a lot of time helping others with this and other rptv sets, and your efforts are much appreciated. Thank you again for all your help and Happy New Year. :)

umr,

Thanks for the settings for the WE. They have made a nice improvement in the picture quality.

My results for 480i vs. 480p are different than you describe. I have the 50" WE 610, and a Sony DVP-NS425P DVD player connected using component cables. When playing a normal DVD, I cannot see any difference between using 480i from the DVD player and having the GWIII set for CineMotion and using 480p from the DVD player. When using a DVE test pattern with several sets of horizontal lines, each set having a different line spacing and line width, I get just the reverse of what you got. With the DVD player set to 480i, the set with the narrowest width and spacing is not resolved, but sort of flickers (tried all three of the DRC modes with this, and saw no differences). With the DVD player set to 480p, the narrow lines were steady and resolved. When your settings for 480i were applied to 480p, the lines were even sharper.

Not sure what this means, but it is what I have seen.

Thanks again for all of your info.

Originally posted by umr
HD on DVI needs to have UBOF adjusted to correct for a brightness problem on DVI. Unless you have DVE on D-VHS you will not be able to use a test pattern on HD. I would suggest you start with the UBOF value I listed and adjust from there based on some dark shows.




UMR

Would the brightness pattern used with a DVD player that had DVI and can scale to 1080i, 720p (LG LST-3510A) work well enough to make the HD adjustments?

I performed the gray scale adjustments this morning with a 480i input with fairly good results. Still need some fine tuning. Are skin tones closer to a cut or a drive?

Thanks for all your help.

bsgoren,

Thanks for finding the typo on SHF0. I just fixed it in the tweaks. I doubt I will tweak Vivid, but you could if you want to.

Originally posted by gschroeder
umr,

Thanks for the settings for the WE. They have made a nice improvement in the picture quality.

My results for 480i vs. 480p are different than you describe. I have the 50" WE 610, and a Sony DVP-NS425P DVD player connected using component cables. When playing a normal DVD, I cannot see any difference between using 480i from the DVD player and having the GWIII set for CineMotion and using 480p from the DVD player. When using a DVE test pattern with several sets of horizontal lines, each set having a different line spacing and line width, I get just the reverse of what you got. With the DVD player set to 480i, the set with the narrowest width and spacing is not resolved, but sort of flickers (tried all three of the DRC modes with this, and saw no differences). With the DVD player set to 480p, the narrow lines were steady and resolved. When your settings for 480i were applied to 480p, the lines were even sharper.

Not sure what this means, but it is what I have seen.

Thanks again for all of your info.

That is interesting. Maybe it was the player. 480i does not resolve as well as 480p can, but 480p on the set I was tweaking flickered.

Originally posted by JimP
UMR

Would the brightness pattern used with a DVD player that had DVI and can scale to 1080i, 720p (LG LST-3510A) work well enough to make the HD adjustments?

I performed the gray scale adjustments this morning with a 480i input with fairly good results. Still need some fine tuning. Are skin tones closer to a cut or a drive?

Thanks for all your help.

It did not work on my Samsung T165, but it might on yours. You could try it and see how it looks.

Originally posted by umr
bsgoren,

Thanks for finding the typo on SHF0. I just fixed it in the tweaks. I doubt I will tweak Vivid, but you could if you want to.

No thanks, not that brave. But, I was thinking about it and wondered if you knew of a SM "edge enhancement" adjustment that could be made to the Pro mode? I think if that could be done to clean up the edges (outlines), then it would be as close to perfect as possible. Is there such an adjustment in the SM for Pro mode? :) Thank you.

Originally posted by bsgoren
No thanks, not that brave. But, I was thinking about it and wondered if you knew of a SM "edge enhancement" adjustment that could be made to the Pro mode? I think if that could be done to clean up the edges (outlines), then it would be as close to perfect as possible. Is there such an adjustment in the SM for Pro mode? :) Thank you.

The edges looked clean to me the way they are. I would play with USHP, SHF0, MVLS and MHLC if want an "enhanced" look.

Would anyone be willing to put up a pic or two of the soft 480p versus 480i, or the greyscale ramp of a tweaked set? I am curious what they are looking like to you.

Thanks,

Originally posted by bsgoren
No thanks, not that brave. But, I was thinking about it and wondered if you knew of a SM "edge enhancement" adjustment that could be made to the Pro mode? I think if that could be done to clean up the edges (outlines), then it would be as close to perfect as possible. Is there such an adjustment in the SM for Pro mode? :) Thank you.

bsgoren:
I've been thinking along the same lines. You know, all someone would have to do is toggle between "pro" and "vivid" to find the service menu items whose values are different and experiment changing the vivid number to the pro number and observe any effects on the enhancements. Only problem is that they're so many service menu items in so many catagories.

umr,

I have been tweaking my 70XBR950 for a number of days now thanks to your excellent posts. My settings are almost the same as your recommendations (I settled on USHP=16).

Regarding your 480I/480P comparisions - my findings concur with those of gschroeder. Using two DVD players: Sony DVP-S7000 (excellent interlaced), and a Panasonic XP-30 (excellent progressive) it looks to me that the resolution of progressive is better than that of interlaced. Furthermore, on interlaced (on both Sony and Panasonic), I also see some flickering on the DVE horizontal resolution paterrns. The flickering gets worse as you switch to standard, and in turn, to vivid. Progressive is rock steady.

blazeby,

I have owned both of those players. Excellent choice in players. I have already updated the tweaks on the first post in this thread. It must have been the player. We also saw a small amount of noise on 480i, but 480p on his player was really bad. You could see the text flickering on the menus in Avia. It sounds like you guys are seeing what I thought you should with 480p before I looked at raah's setup.

Originally posted by umr
It must have been the player. We also saw a small amount of noise on 480i, but 480p on his player was really bad. You could see the text flickering on the menus in Avia. It sounds like you guys are seeing what I thought you should with 480p before I looked at raah's setup.

I'm not sure. I can definitely see a difference between 480i and 480p with your settings, I'm just not certain which is more "correct". Unfortunately I don't have a progressive player (was going to get a DVI player but with all the talk of problems with the current players and now the talk of issues with progressive scan on this set, I'm not sure anymore). The only source I have that will do both progressive and interlaced is my gamecube :-).

As I said, there's a definite difference between 480p and 480i here. I do *not* see any flickering of text in 480i. I will say that 480p definitely looks fuzzier than 480i. Unfortunately I don't have any sharpness test patterns I can use. The most obvious difference was looking at F-Zero, where the engine glow was somewhat striped in the interlaced mode, but it was a fuzzy blob in progressive. I'm not sure which is more correct any more than I'm sure which I like better, though :D. SSX 3 has its own set of test patterns, but I used your settings and the THX optimizer on the DVD player which results in too bright an image (by the SSX3 test patterns at least) for the gamecube (my DVD player and gamecube share a component input, hence the earlier post on switching and the desire for a DVI DVD player :-). Not really surprising, I guess, and it does make for a pretty good argument against using a switch (single input = unified settings).

I've tried taking pictures of the screen with the strange artifacts I described on F-Zero, but I'm not accustomed to taking direct pictures of light sources, so the pictures thus far have been over-exposed (to the point that the CCD over saturates the precise areas that I most want detail on :-P)

Hi there,

I would like to tweak my GWIII but there is so much info about it I am not sure what tweaks I should/shouldn't do. Please read my story located here and let me know what you guys think:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=344912

Thanks a bunch,
Tim

Originally posted by TheRipper
Hi there,

I would like to tweak my GWIII but there is so much info about it I am not sure what tweaks I should/shouldn't do. Please read my story located here and let me know what you guys think:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=344912

Thanks a bunch,
Tim Follow the step by step procedure it will walk you through the changes to make. I would do everything, but it is up to you what you want to do.

Added some more info to the tweaks that people might find useful.

Originally posted by umr
Added some more info to the tweaks that people might find useful.
UMR,
you are a saint. Thank you for contributing to this board. You are one of a kind.

Originally posted by umr
Added some more info to the tweaks that people might find useful.

umr - What specifically did you add?

Also, re:

Originally posted by bsgoren
No thanks, not that brave. But, I was thinking about it and wondered if you knew of a SM "edge enhancement" adjustment that could be made to the Pro mode? I think if that could be done to clean up the edges (outlines), then it would be as close to perfect as possible. Is there such an adjustment in the SM for Pro mode? Thank you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[QUOTE]Originally posted by umr
The edges looked clean to me the way they are. I would play with USHP, SHF0, MVLS and MHLC if want an "enhanced" look.

umr - I changed the USHP to 63 (from 0 and then 55) and MHLC to 0 (from 1) and that seemed to sharpen the edges a bit more (although still not quite as sharp as Vivid mode); I tried leaving MHLC at 1 but it was fuzzy. I left SHF0 at 15 and MVLS at 0. Somehow, these settings are bit better to me. This is all kind of strange :rolleyes: Anyhow, thank you again! :)

Originally posted by bsgoren
umr - What specifically did you add?

...umr - I changed the USHP to 63 (from 0 and then 55) and MHLC to 0 (from 1) and that seemed to sharpen the edges a bit more (although still not quite as sharp as Vivid mode); I tried leaving MHLC at 1 but it was fuzzy. I left SHF0 at 15 and MVLS at 0. Somehow, these settings are bit better to me. This is all kind of strange :rolleyes: Anyhow, thank you again! :)

Go look at the first post. I noted the changes at the bottom and dated it in the post.

I am glad you are happy with the results.

You really should take a look at something like the Avia sharpness pattern or some of the DVE frequency sweeps or some very high quality DVD's like AOTC or The Fifth Element Superbit. You might be surprised at what you are doing to the image. Most sets are setup with excess enhancement so we are conditioned to like it that way. The problem is that when you enhance the image you end up hiding the more subtle details that are in the source.

Originally posted by umr
Go look at the first post. I noted the changes at the bottom and dated it in the post.

I am glad you are happy with the results.

You really should take a look at something like the Avia sharpness pattern or some of the DVE frequency sweeps or some very high quality DVD's like AOTC or The Fifth Element Superbit. You might be surprised at what you are doing to the image. Most sets are setup with excess enhancement so we are conditioned to like it that way. The problem is that when you enhance the image you end up hiding the more subtle details that are in the source.

I totally understand what you're saying, but when going from watching HD (on D*TV and OTA DT) on a 57" CRT RPTV with sharpness and convergence problems to watching the same on a new GWIII (60WE610), the razor sharpness, brightness, and vivid colors of the LCD GWIII are what blew me away in the first place. With that said, I would be disappointed watching HD on my new GWIII that wasn't as sharp and bright as possible...that's why I liked the Vivid mode at first, even before I tweaked the UM. I suppose we are conditioned to like it that way, but when we have the possibility to watch movies and network shows in our own home (without spending more than $5k-$6k or so for an entire HT setup) that look better than in the movie theater, then why not tweak it to look as good as possible for our own eyes and stay in your own HT. :D

Originally posted by JimP
... Are skin tones closer to a cut or a drive?

Thanks for all your help.

Do not adjust cuts or drives based on anything other than gray. Colors are adjusted with the color decoder. These are things like Color, Hue, AXIS, RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB.

Originally posted by umr
Do not adjust cuts or drives based on anything other than gray. Colors are adjusted with the color decoder. These are things like Color, Hue, AXIS, RYR, RYB, GYR and GYB.

O.K., I know what RYR and RYB deal with red and blue push, but what does GYR and GYB do?

Originally posted by JimP
O.K., I know what RYR and RYB deal with red and blue push, but what does GYR and GYB do?

Read the first post in this thread. I define what they are there. These are the equivalent of color and hue for red and green. Color and hue are for blue.

Originally posted by umr
Read the first post in this thread. I define what they are there. These are the equivalent of color and hue for red and green. Color and hue are for blue.

Have you adjusted either of the GY/RY in the GWIII sets you've adjusted so far? I find that the color test pattern in DVE never even remotely matches what the disc says it should look like (three black boxes on the bottom left and upper right, next to three green boxes). Color decoder error?

I don't yet have any equipment for fixing the color decoder settings beyond the old "mk.I eyeball". Haven't yet decided whether to buy the equipment and do it myself or try and get one of the local ISF techs to do it for me. (Made a few calls, most places didn't want to do it, the other two didn't return my call after some initial enthusiasm :-/

Originally posted by naimis
I find that the color test pattern in DVE never even remotely matches what the disc says it should look like (three black boxes on the bottom left and upper right, next to three green boxes). Color decoder error?

Or maybe it's (at least in part) the filter that comes with the DVE that's the problem. I can see blues through the green filter.

Originally posted by naimis
Or maybe it's (at least in part) the filter that comes with the DVE that's the problem. I can see blues through the green filter.

You got it. The green filter leaks. I would stick with AXIS 0. My experience on other Sony sets that have AXIS and its cousin AXPL is that is all you need to tweak. The GWII lacked these so it was more difficult to get it right. The GWII also had some color errors on HD that required additional adjustment for that input. Unfortunately, it was not as simple as setting AXIS to 0.

You may have gray scale problems or source (DVD player) problems if the colors still look wrong.

Step-By-Step Procedure To Implement GWIII Tweaks (AT YOUR OWN RISK. I WAS NOT ABLE TO TEST THIS, BUT I BELIEVE IT TO BE CORRECT):

UMR: thank you for this step-by-step list for folks like me. I was gettting overwhelmed reading all these posts and other threads to figure out the correct sequence of how to do things. This will help immensely.

Out of curiosity, I noticed you mention to record all the initial values before changing any of them. Is there not a master list of the default values that exists?

Originally posted by bobby_t1
UMR: thank you for this step-by-step list for folks like me. I was gettting overwhelmed reading all these posts and other threads to figure out the correct sequence of how to do things. This will help immensely.

Out of curiosity, I noticed you mention to record all the initial values before changing any of them. Is there not a master list of the default values that exists?

About the list, Thanks.

I want you to record the initial values because Sony could change them at any time and you might want to return to your original value and not someone elses. Recording the values also has a chance of you catching a mistake before you make it. You might also be able to reverse a mistake if you were on the wrong value. Lets say I told you to change SHF0 and you chose SHOF. They look similar and adjacent to each other. You might catch it if you wrote it down and could go back even if you caught it later, but wrote it down correctly.

Originally posted by naimis
Or maybe it's (at least in part) the filter that comes with the DVE that's the problem. I can see blues through the green filter.

If you really want to know you could go out and buy a Wratten #99 filter or try dropping the cuts and drives for red and blue while you use the green filter. One of those will do the job.

UMR,

Is there some place that could tell us what all of the service menu descriptions are? For example: what does SHF0 mean?

If I posted a document with all of them listed could you tell us?

Thanks for any help.

Originally posted by umr
If you really want to know you could go out and buy a Wratten #99 filter or try dropping the cuts and drives for red and blue while you use the green filter. One of those will do the job.

Wow, even with RCUT=RDRV=BCUT=BDRV=0 there's still a noticable redness in the test pattern. on the bottom pattern, the second and third block from the left are slightly red and slightly less red, respectively. That would be the red and magenta colors.

It definitely helped, however, to turn them all down. I ended up with GYB=110 and GYR=162 on my set (not far off from what I'd ended up with before turning down the red and blue, which I find vaguely reassuring). I've left the RYR/RYB settings at the factory values for the time being.

So... whoever figures out which SM item disables the individual panels in the GWIII gets a gold star... :D

Originally posted by umr
I want you to record the initial values because Sony could change them at any time and you might want to return to your original value and not someone elses. Recording the values also has a chance of you catching a mistake before you make it. You might also be able to reverse a mistake if you were on the wrong value. Lets say I told you to change SHF0 and you chose SHOF. They look similar and adjacent to each other. You might catch it if you wrote it down and could go back even if you caught it later, but wrote it down correctly.

thanks for clarification. Anyone have tips on the fastest way of recording the values? I was thinking of just taking pictures of each SM page with my digicam :)

but i've never seen the SM yet so not sure if this would even be possible.

Ok, I'm being paranoid, but what was aforementioned typo with SHF0? I went back to the original post and couldn't tell what was different since I didn't have a copy of the post before it was corrected.
It still appears that I am to change SHF0 to 15, which is what my notes say I did. I was tripping out thinking maybe I changed the wrong setting last night. Thanks for clarifying for a novice tweaker.
I am not good at finding what looks best, but after applying your suggestions I definately notice the difference. It was especially evident in the daily show on my tivo. Before the color was all washed out looking, but I thought it was just the source since I really didn't notice other broadcasts looking particular bad. Now all the colors seem to be much more pronounced.

Great info on here...thanks UMR
I am in the process of deciding between the 50" XBR800 and the WE610. I know that the GWIII has more pixels and 3rd generation engine, but from everything I have read on here the GWII has just as good pq once tweaked out. From what UMR stated, the GWIII has a brighter picture. Reading some of the other threads, it seems that the GWII XBR was made a little more "solid" than the GWIII WE610 models. I guess what I am asking is does it just come down to personal choice or is there distinct advantages of one model over the next...... Thanks for any feedback

Originally posted by lynns_rich
Great info on here...thanks UMR
I am in the process of deciding between the 50" XBR800 and the WE610. I know that the GWIII has more pixels and 3rd generation engine, but from everything I have read on here the GWII has just as good pq once tweaked out. From what UMR stated, the GWIII has a brighter picture. Reading some of the other threads, it seems that the GWII XBR was made a little more "solid" than the GWIII WE610 models. I guess what I am asking is does it just come down to personal choice or is there distinct advantages of one model over the next...... Thanks for any feedback

I can help clarify this because of spending so much time and taking measurements of both sets:

Things I would not worry about between the two:

Circuitry Performance - I see no difference between these sets on how they handle the inputs. The chip sets are different, but the circuits seem to perform the same. They both seem to have the same strengths and weaknesses on the electronics side.

Color Accuracy - Both sets can have fabulous colors once they are properly adjusted.

Screen Door - I see no difference in the screen door between these two sets.

XBR800 Pluses:

Reliability - This is the big point in favor of this set at this time. This may drop out of the picture in time, but today the WE has had more problems.

Controls - The remote is better, the controls on the TV are better and the location of the remote sensor on the TV is better.

Build Quality - I would give the edge to the XBR800. Almost everything about it looks to be made better. Hint: I would not trade my XBR800 for a WE610 at this point in time.

XBR800 Minuses:

Contrast Ratio - Lower than WE version unless you add a color correction filter. Not an issue if you do.

Complexity Of Tweaking - This set is more difficult to tweak than the WE. It requires adding a color filter to get the gray scale close at 0 to 10 IRE levels. It also requires a more complex adjustment of the service menu to get equal the WE versions performance.

WE610 Pluses:

Contrast Ratio - Out of the box contrast ratio is better than the XBR800 untweaked and about equal to a tweaked set.

Brightness - This set is much brighter.

Color Uniforimity - I believe the new sets tend to have better uniformity of color across the screen. This is normally not visible, but once you tweak the set to D65 slight color errors become more apparent.

WE610 Minuses:

Black Level - The bright image also raises the black level. The untweaked WE had about 2 times brighter blacks than my XBR800 untweaked and 4 times brighter than my tweaked set. This could be improved with a filter, but I don't know how hard it would be to add. This was fairly easy in the XBR800 to do mechanically.

WE610 & XBR800 Personal Taste Issues:

Appearance - Some people like one over the other. I am not sure which I prefer.

The Screen - I prefer the XBR800 some prefer the WE610. It depends on your lighting scenario and preference.

Originally posted by JonnyCAPSLOCK
Ok, I'm being paranoid, but what was aforementioned typo with SHF0? ....

The error. which was pointed out in a previous post, was that the step-by-step instructions said to set it to 0 instead of 15. I had 15 in the list, but typed 0 in the instructions.

This a reason you want to be looking at test patterns when you are making these adjustments. Zero would look really bad.

umr,

Thanks for the comparisons, I have been going back and forth between these two and need to just make a decision. :p Will be ordering in the next week and right now am leaning very strongly toward the XBR800. Reliability being a major factor and I just like the looks better. Was really pumped about the WE's until reading some of the problems posted on here...buzzing, powering up, bulb sets and such. According to the specs, the GWIII's have about 43,000 more pixel's than the GWII's but if the pq is about the same that is a non-issue. Thanks again and Happy New Year! :cool:

I've gotten my 60" GWIII (non XBR) gray scale very neutral. Even used a 18% gray card in afternoon indirect light to help calibrate grayscale.

I'm finding that my screen is not uniform in color. The left side has a touch more blue than the right side. Its more obvious on a black and white movie, but I can also see it on a color movie if I look for it. Its very slight, but its still there. I suspect this to be the nature of LCD rear projectors as I saw something similar to this but much more severe on a Panny LCD rear projector.

On UMRs tweaks, I use most of his grayscale settings, except that I found that I had to adjust BCUT to take out blue in the lower levels and GCUT didn't need as much reduction. I mention that as I don't know if its of any significance.

Has anyone else found their screen not uniform after performing grayscale calibrations??

P.S. Something I found very kewl was to use the dual picture mode while adjusting gray scale. You can have you grayscale from a DVD player in one window and either your satellite or cable TV in the other. That way, you can tell in real time what your adjustments are doing to a live picture. Reduces the going back and forth to a live picture.:)

Originally posted by JimP
....Has anyone else found their screen not uniform after performing grayscale calibrations??

P.S. Something I found very kewl was to use the dual picture mode while adjusting gray scale. You can have you grayscale from a DVD player in one window and either your satellite or cable TV in the other. That way, you can tell in real time what your adjustments are doing to a live picture. Reduces the going back and forth to a live picture.:)

You have found the dark side of gray scale calibration. Once you are close to D65 a color shift across the screen is much easier to see.

Dual picture mode is a cool idea, but be careful not to adjust the gray scale based on the color image. That is the color decoder's job.

Originally posted by umr
Controls - The remote is better, the controls on the TV are better and the location of the remote sensor on the TV is better.

Where exactly is the remote sensor placed on the XBR? I've never thought of the sensor on the WE as being in a bad place. In fact, I thought that having it on the top side of the set was great since I'm far more likely to have things blocking the bottom front (and I do - the center channel and at the moment the gamecube).

How are the remotes different? The WE remote is very similar to the sony CD changer remote I have.

I'd thought about swapping the WE for the XBR, but I think I'd rather have easy grayscale adjustments than better black levels :-). Plus, since I didn't have *any* bad pixels, nor do I have a (serious) problem with the start-up buzz; I didn't want to take a chance on getting a set with these problems.

Originally posted by naimis
Where exactly is the remote sensor placed on the XBR? ...
How are the remotes different? ...
I'd thought about swapping the WE for the XBR, but I think I'd rather have easy grayscale adjustments than better black levels :-)...

The sensor is in the middle down low. I always have trouble with WE sets when I am close to the screen getting the darn thing to respond. Sony even put out a technical bulletin on this.

The remote on the XBR is metal and very solid. Totally different feel than the WE remote.

I am not suggesting people swap their sets for the XBR800. The gray scale is easier to adjust on the XBR800 than the WE because I know how to turn off the blue panel on the XBR. This allows you to use a different procedure that avoids light meters or color analyzers. Adding the filter is a piece of cake. Getting one is the trick.

Originally posted by kodyklindt
UMR,

Is there some place that could tell us what all of the service menu descriptions are? For example: what does SHF0 mean?

If I posted a document with all of them listed could you tell us?

Thanks for any help.

I don't know what they all are. I do know what some are for. You might want to do a search on the chip set used in the GWIII to see what it means. Unless you are into this stuff most of it will be greek.

I have attached an example from a Sony Technical document on a similar sharpness circuit for example purposes.

Originally posted by kodyklindt
UMR,

.... For example: what does SHF0 mean?

...

I believe SHF0 is the sharpness bandpass filter center frequency. When you change the value I believe you are changing the center frequency of the bandpass filter. I do not know the f0 frequency when SHF0 is 15. You might be able to find out if you know the model number of the chip. I have attached a typical Sony sharpness circuit for example.

The purpose of the bandpass filter is to eliminate noise before the signal is enhanced by the sharpness circuit. You run into problems when the signal is filtered too much before it is sharpened. The details that are filtered out can not be recovered.

Originally posted by umr
Read the first post in this thread. I define what they are there. These are the equivalent of color and hue for red and green. Color and hue are for blue.

In the first post of the thread, is saturation and hue reversed??:confused:

Originally posted by JimP
In the first post of the thread, is saturation and hue reversed??:confused:

I don't believe so, but it really does not matter. AXIS is all you really need to adjust.

UMR, i've just tweaked quickly the hitachi RPTV 51F500 set that the store lended me in the time they get me new GWIII 50" since mine was obvioulsy dead :p

I've used DVE and the filter that they provide with it.

I then rewatched the part on decoder and greyscale tunning.

What exactly can be done to tune the greyscale ?
and wich temp should we be looking for?
D65 ?? or a more neutral grey ?

Why does my computer monitor indicates a 9300k color temp and it seems to be pretty neutral ?

then what tools can we used to measure this, and is it adjustable on most set? ( i didn't go into the hitachi SM and i am not plannig to, but i was able to make a good choice between the provided color temps of high mid and low in the advanced settings )

What interests me here is not the results and the tweaks you did on the GWIII ( well it does but not at this point since i don't even have the set)
but rather the theory and the works of it.

Could you also point me to a few source of info on how all that works and what exactly we are striving for??


Then, i have always think that setting a set to as near perfect NTSC reproduction as possible is a good thing, but after we need to bring the settings to where we personally enjoy it better and think that it looks good
and or more lifelike, i am also interested in the "window" effect or so called,
and i would really like to be able to tweak my GW to get a plasma like effect of a window on reality...
is that ok to think ? should i be aiming for that?
and what should i do to get to this goal

i understand that my experience is very limited so far, and i ask you this beein as humble as possible :p
thanks :)

JinMTVT,

This is a bit off topic and a bunch of questions, but I'll take a shot at what I can.


What exactly can be done to tune the greyscale ?

I don't own this set, but I downloaded the owners manual. To take a look. Under the advanced settings you can set the color temperature to High, Medium and Standard. I would guess Standard is closest to D65 OTB. You can always go in the service menu and tweak it like the GWIII as well. There are different concerns with a CRT set though.

and wich temp should we be looking for?
D65 ?? or a more neutral grey ?

I would consider D65 to be neutral gray.

Why does my computer monitor indicates a 9300k color temp and it seems to be pretty neutral ?

It could be wrong or you could be wrong. Many people struggle with detecting the correct color. Without a test pattern and a measurement device it is difficult.

then what tools can we used to measure this, and is it adjustable on most set?

A color analyzer and a signal generator would work very well. Philips and Accupel make some nice ones if you have an extra $7,000 to spend on this. Actually measuring color is an expensive endeavor. You would be better off using an ISF Optical Comparator if you want to do a comparison relatively accurately on the cheap (~$400). Hometheaterspot.com has a paid section that could tell you all you want to know about calibrating these sets. Here is a post in AVS about tweaking these sets as well http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2368643#post2368643 .

Could you also point me to a few source of info on how all that works and what exactly we are striving for??

I am not sure exactly what "all that" is, but here are some links on how to adjust your TV.

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/isf/michaeltlv/isf_m-tlv_calibrationreport_michaeltlv.html

http://www.videouniversity.com/tvbars2.htm

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/experttips/michaeltlv/michaeltlv_tips.html

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/experttips/guykuo/avia/avia_a2z.html



Then, i have always think that setting a set to as near perfect NTSC reproduction as possible is a good thing, but after we need to bring the settings to where we personally enjoy it better and think that it looks good
and or more lifelike, i am also interested in the "window" effect or so called,
and i would really like to be able to tweak my GW to get a plasma like effect of a window on reality...
is that ok to think ? should i be aiming for that?
and what should i do to get to this goal

I am not a big believer in adjusting the set to taste. You should be able to get plasma like performance from a set that is well calibrated to the standards unless the Plasma is not calibrated to the standard. I believe you should be trying to reproduce what is in the source material. Usually if you calibrate the TV correctly this will be the case. I get out the window type of performance on my set and it is not tweaked to my taste, but is setup for accurate reproduction.

However, many devices deviate from the standard in their outputs. Usually this is level related. That is why you may need to tweak levels differently between sources. More tweaking per device than fixing its limitations is beyond where I would go. I am not the Dictator of TV adjustment so do what you want. I have found that when I am not happy with what I see that it is either a flawed source or some problem in the TV I have not fixed yet.

many thanks UMR for this quick and good reply :)

I would very like to talk to you in person, too bad i am too far up north :p

I have a last question for you right now,
from your current experience, does tweaking the set to the standard correct colors provide a like "window" effect, or does the window effect deviates that much from the "correct" calibration ?

what i mean is, from all the sets you have worked on, and from your experience, when calibrating correctly and attaining a certain level of correctness on the settings, does it provides the real life effect i am looking for, or does it go to more film like "dull" effect ( i know that this is completly relative to the source and how it was treated and filmed, but let's say that we are watching a news show that tries to stay in the correct like like colors and all ) ??


thanks for this brief excursion out of the bonds of this topic :)
i will read all the info you have pointed :)

JinMTVT,

I would say the only shows that give you the "window" type of effect are of the "highest" quality and fairly rare. I would say only HD qualifies.

Here in Houston one of the stations regularly broadcasts with a strong green tint. They never look all that great when they do that. PBS, however, regularly looks fabulous. HD is a mixed bag some broadcasts are wonderful and some are horrid and some are mediocre. The Rose Parade today was in the wonderful category like it was last year. The lighting was not as good this year, but it was overcast so it was not their fault.

Many SD broadcasts look "dull' because they are poor. When the station is sloppy and does not use the full contrast ratio available you get a pretty dull looking picture. When you set the gamma very high poorly produced shows will look punchy, but you will loose black details on shows that are properly produced. You can make the picture look vibrant, but they are not being sent to you that way. Basically, once you calibrate your set to be accurate you start noticing all the garbage that is being broadcast very easily.

Some DVD's look fabulous and some are good and some are junk. The story with DVD's is the same as SD and HD. Garbage into the TV and garbage on the picture. Well mastered movies like AOTC and Superbit Fifth Element are a real treat. While below average ones become painful to watch.

I see these problems no matter what technology it is.

Thank you UMR...

VIBRANT is the word i was looking for in my mind :p

BTW, where could i get a good gray visual copmarator?
i guess that a paper version can't be that expensive right ?

i do not wish to invest 4-500$ or more only on equipment for now :(
and thanks for the link on the hitachi..i'll make good use of it! :)

Sat down last night to perform UMR's tweaks to my 60WE610 and to my astonishment I discovered that my set was already calibrated close to all your settings. I only changed one value; SHF0 from 14 to 15 using the THX optimizer.

I was wondering if my December built TV was better calibrated out of the factory due to improved process and quality control? I need to look at the lamp hours to be sure it really is a new set, just in case :)

JinMTVT,

I would invest in a Kodak Gray Card. Just use indirect natural lighting and you should be able to skip the D65 source. Here is a link to what you should get if you want to do this on the cheap.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=27715&is=REG

Originally posted by grumpy
Sat down last night to perform UMR's tweaks to my 60WE610 and to my astonishment I discovered that my set was already calibrated close to all your settings. I only changed one value; SHF0 from 14 to 15 using the THX optimizer.

I was wondering if my December built TV was better calibrated out of the factory due to improved process and quality control? I need to look at the lamp hours to be sure it really is a new set, just in case :)

I know people at the factory have read these posts in the past and modified the current version based on last years tweaks. I was told this by a fellow from the factory in Pittsburgh. I was also contacted in the past by the Sony Style folks about how to calibrate their sets in the New York City store.

They might have gone in and done the same with this years model at the factory. I get the impression they want the best PQ, but they may miss a few details in the process of getting the production going.

Had they tweaked the gray scale as well?

Originally posted by umr
Here is a link to what you should get if you want to do this on the cheap.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=27715&is=REG

I have been looking for where to buy this. Thanks!

Thanks umr for all of your information. I actually gave your settings a try after you first posted them. The sm scared me a bit, but I'm a little more comfortable with it now. Especially now that I know you can move down a category at a time! It seems to me that you only have to save your changes if you are going to change the input. The first time I was using component from the cable box and so just left the input alone and went through and made the changes and saved at the end. When I went back later to check all of the changes had been saved.

One thing I noticed, that I don't understand, is that the sm menu is stating that cable box (mot 5100) is outputting 720p no matter what the channel. If I change to the DVD player it correctly picks up 480i. Any suggestions?


I see now that I had turn off the 480i override in the motorola 5100

I have not yet performed umr's tweaks, because I still have cold feet going into the service menu and am dreading the amount of time it will take to do all that for each input/resolution combination.

But I have used an Avia disc to just follow their instructions for basic calibration. I found that my gamma setting (on Pro mode) is not even on the scale! For me, even the 1.6 appears brighter than the background, which means I'm somewhere way too low. Can anyone verify that they saw this as well before doing some tweaks? The last thing I want is to go crazy trying to set my levels properly only to find that my set is not performing properly in the first place.

kcamera,

I would not trust the Avia gamma test. Does your picture look washed out when the levels are set correctly? Don't worry about it if they don't.

Originally posted by umr
I would not trust the Avia gamma test. Does your picture look washed out when the levels are set correctly? Don't worry about it if they don't.
No, the picture is not very washed out -- it's pretty clean. Although I was surprised that I have my contrast user menu setting all the way up, and I still pass the bars and spikes tests. I really expected to lose my white levels with it up that high (I do on my LCD computer monitor), which I why I was generally unsettled. I thought I remember you having really bad gamma with your GWII from the factory (if I remember your old thread correctly) and it really improved with your tweaks...

What, then, is the best way to measure the current gamma level? Is there a way for mere mortals like me to do it?

Originally posted by kcamera
No, the picture is not very washed out -- it's pretty clean. Although I was surprised that I have my contrast user menu setting all the way up, and I still pass the bars and spikes tests. I really expected to lose my white levels with it up that high (I do on my LCD computer monitor), which I why I was generally unsettled. I thought I remember you having really bad gamma with your GWII from the factory (if I remember your old thread correctly) and it really improved with your tweaks...

What, then, is the best way to measure the current gamma level? Is there a way for mere mortals like me to do it?

The GWII had errors in how the gamma was configured. I did not see it on any GWIII so far. This should not be something that varies from set to set.

You can do it if you have a light meter and test patterns. This post shows you how to calculate it. I would not worry about it if it was me.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3113766#post3113766

umr
the latest version of the tweaks (today) says that there are geometry adjustments for the adventurous, however, I don't see them anywhere. am I missing something. where can they be found?
thanks!

buddster,

The geometry settings are further down umr's post in the MID1 category. You are looking for items DHPH, DVPH, MDHS, and MDVS.

I had to change DVPH to center the image vertically, but you should be careful in this area.

Originally posted by blazeby
buddster,

The geometry settings are further down umr's post in the MID1 category. You are looking for items DHPH, DVPH, MDHS, and MDVS.

I had to change DVPH to center the image vertically, but you should be careful in this area.


It would probably be a good idea to check the user menu first to be sure that the picture hasn't been adjusted there. When you bring up "menu", there's an icon that shows the screen with arrows. Since this feature only applies to the stretch modes, it could engaged at some times and not others.

I was wondering if the tweaks are noticable to the normal human not videophiles. I was going to do the tweaks but so much step and time consuming so i wonder if its worth it?

Originally posted by be4r
I was wondering if the tweaks are noticable to the normal human not videophiles. I was going to do the tweaks but so much step and time consuming so i wonder if its worth it?

Sarcasm ON:

No. I spent this effort for the upper 2% of the population who would notice. A good indication of this is if you can use the SpellCheck feature of this forum.

Sarcasm OFF:

be4r

It might be hard to find a normal human on this forum and not a videophile to answer your question.

If I can relate photography print quality to the tele, most people would never notice if it was a little off unless they had a better print/TV next to it to compare to. However, at some point, the difference is obvious even to the casual observer.

I think a good test is to do the following(which may doom you to tweaking for the rest of your life) Do the whites look white or are they pink or blue. Do flesh tones look natural which usually means a gradation of tones without overemphasis in any color. Do shadows look neutral, not warm, cool etc. Keep in mind that you should look at a variety of programming as one channel on satellite or cable might actually be yellowish and another greenish without fault of the TV. A good test of grayscale is to view a black and white movie. Just how neutral is it in the highlights, midtones, darker shadows and blacks.

If you see the above and don't feel comfortable making the adjustments yourself, you may prefer contracting with a professional especially trained in TV calibration.

Edited for spellcheck.. UMR ;)

UMR

I decided to find some free time and to apply the tweaks anyways since everyone has been saying good things about it. And since its free thanks to UMR. Just one question when the the procedure says to do this to all your video input. Do i save first and press TV/video or should i press TV/video and save after I'm done changing those values?

Originally posted by be4r
...Do i save first and press TV/video or should i press TV/video and save after I'm done changing those values?

The procedure says to save before you change inputs. Why? You will loose your changes if you change the input before saving them. Just follow the procedure exactly unless you see something wrong or get confused. Then exit out without saving and power down the TV to clear any changes that have not been saved.

You might not want to do these tweaks if you can't follow the procedure.

umr,

The greyscale was excellent OOTB. I don't remember the details (don't have my notes with me), but the THX optimizer showed them to be very good. I'm sure I could have adjusted them a little, but it was my first time in the SM and I figured for now to leave them be. I will go back in and tweak some more later and update you on what I find.

On a side note I did watch an old western in black and white and was amazed by the accuracy of the grey scale. The movie looked much better than I remember on my 32" Sony Tube (of course being 60" helped a little ;) ).

I figured out the geometry and adjusted the overscan - no problem. Now, on to the color decoder. I'm going to use the color decoder test pattern in AVIA with both AVIA and DVE filters, matching the outer color with the middle square which represents "0". What is the difference between Red Hue and Red Level? I'm not quite sure which one should be adjusted in order to match the squares (maybe both?). BTW, like others have reported, the red and blue are close, but the green is waaay off.

buddster,

That is the wrong pattern to use. Use the color bars. I prefer the special one that is white on the bottom on Avia.

Red Level adjusts the level of red overall. Red Hue adjusts the level of red in yellow between magenta.

You do not have a filter that will work for green.

I would leave all of these alone. You are more likely to make a mess of things than help it. AXIS 0 looks correct to me.

If I use the listed tweaks, what does that do to my warranty? I got a five yr warranty for my 60we610 and wanted to know if I use the tweaks and then have to have it serviced, because it is doomed to buzz, not start, get the bsod, or some bulb problem, will my warranty be void because I went into the service menu? I haven't had any problems with mine(Nov build, 9011561) since i got it on Nov 28th. I just wanted to know where I stand before I use the tweaks and then get the dreaded buzz. thanks for the info

marvincbr,

It is not totally clear cut.

I would count on being out of luck if you mess up the TV. Sony might give you a hard time if they find out you have been in the service menu even if you did not cause the problem. I would not tell them.

I took the plunge and entered the SM for the first time today. I have a GWIII60xbr model, did the User Menu items first, then navigated my way through the SM Categories and Tweaked.

So here's a few questions for those in the know. I used DVE for my reference test patterns. Mostly the "overs-can" pattern and adjusted the Geometry. I seem to have a problem with the Resolution. I can't seem to get as sharp of picture in the Pro Mode as I can in the Standard and Vivid. Matter of fact, after tweaking USHP/MVLS/MHLC many times, I ended with this combo. USHP-50 , and MVLS/MHLC at UMRs suggested settings of 0 and 1. I also set SHOF at mid range.The strange thing is after exiting the SM and adjusting color-brightness-hue etc, using DVE, I find that adjusting the Sharpness level doesn't seem to really do anything.

Anyway, something I may have to live with until I get this unit ISF'd. Does anyone have any setting tips for the rest of the items located in Advance Program. As in, what settings for BN Smoother-Clear White-Detail Enhancer-Color Enhancer, etc....

I suppose this may be way out there, but has anyone had their unit ISF'd, and what might be some of the values of the various categories? I guess these settings may vary from unit to unit depending on Hours of Bulb usage.

Any help on this Sharpness condition is appreciated,

thanks

nc2

Originally posted by notcat2
...I guess these settings may vary from unit to unit depending on Hours of Bulb usage.
...

thanks

nc2

Bulb usage will not effect resolution.

Changing SHOF may have been a mistake. I would try returning it to its original value. That is a sharpness bias and is input dependent.

Are you not seeing the entire frequency sweep clearly?

UMR please forgive me if this has already been asked, but how much difference do your tweaks make..10%, 2o%, more? I haven't ever seen an LCD that was tweaked to the max. Does it look alot better? Do you think manufacturers could improve their future sets if they would listen to serious tweakers like yourself? Do any of them listen? I sure hope that they do because it sounds to me like you know what you're doing--thanks for all your info!

Originally posted by Jet Champion
UMR please forgive me if this has already been asked, but how much difference do your tweaks make..10%, 2o%, more? I haven't ever seen an LCD that was tweaked to the max. Does it look alot better? Do you think manufacturers could improve their future sets if they would listen to serious tweakers like yourself? Do any of them listen? I sure hope that they do because it sounds to me like you know what you're doing--thanks for all your info!

How much better is a tweaked GWIII versus an untweaked set? That is a tough question to answer. It depends on the source, your expectations and the area of performance you are looking at. I would return these sets for poor performance without them if it was me. That is why I post these tweaks here.

Resolution is one of the key areas I focus on. With the best quality sources you will see these improvements with the worst you will see no improvement. The sets I have looked at on DVD's rolled off at about 4.5 MHz out of a 6.75 MHz range on luma. The percentage change in chroma was about the same. I guess you could say the resolution improvement was about 50% on those sets. I would estimate the resolution on HD based on DVE test patterns was about 25% improved on component and 67% over firewire on the XBR set.

Color accuracy on HD was significantly off. I would guess about 10 to 20% if you looked at the Avia color decoder graphic. The colors on other inputs was fine without service menu tweaks.

Gray scale is hard to estimate without expensive equipment, but the sets I looked at were not very close with the preset color temperatures. I would guess a dE of between 5 and 20 (one dE is a color error that is barely detectable). The sets are probably capable of tracking within a dE of less than 5 from 20 to 100 IRE. You could call this a zero to four fold improvement in gray scale accuracy depending on where you are in the luminance range and what color temperature you chose.

I believe manufacturers are more interested in selling sets than anything. As you can see in a few of the responses many people prefer to see sharp edges on their video pictures. This frequently results in lost information from the original picture. Like I said above I have talked to a few folks at Sony and they are considering some of these things. How much they choose to implement in the sets they sell is probably more a function of how it would sell versus how accurate the sets will be.

UMR,

I would love to see a screen shot of your GWII. Have you posted a pic before?

mnc,

Look at my gallery.

UMR,

Nice picture! This is kinda off subject, but since you are so knowledgable, what do look for when adjusting gamma? How do you know when it is set right? Thanks.

Originally posted by mnc
UMR,

Nice picture! This is kinda off subject, but since you are so knowledgable, what do look for when adjusting gamma? How do you know when it is set right? Thanks.

I look at how contrasty the picture is. I have a good feel for what some movies look like. You can get the same feel by looking at them on a well setup computer display.

I can also measure it with a light meter and calculated the gamma if I think it needs adjustment.

UMR,

I am having a hard time watching dark scenes on my 32" XBR (I know, wrong forum, but you have a lot of experience with Sony). In chapter 16 of the Hulk, I can barely see what is going on. The black levels have been set according to VE, but everything is so black! I have a SM Gamma adjustment of 0-15, it is currently at 7. Unfortunately, I have no idea what the factory default is, the set is eight years old and I can't find where I wrote down the original settings from when it was ISF'd. How much of a change should there be from the darkest to second darkest bar on the 16 step pattern? Mine appears the be much brighter. I would really appreciate any help.

mnc,

I will PM you on this.

Thanks!

Originally posted by notcat2
I took the plunge and entered the SM for the first time today. I have a GWIII60xbr model, did the User Menu items first, then navigated my way through the SM Categories and Tweaked.

So here's a few questions for those in the know. I used DVE for my reference test patterns. Mostly the "overs-can" pattern and adjusted the Geometry. I seem to have a problem with the Resolution. I can't seem to get as sharp of picture in the Pro Mode as I can in the Standard and Vivid. Matter of fact, after tweaking USHP/MVLS/MHLC many times, I ended with this combo. USHP-50 , and MVLS/MHLC at UMRs suggested settings of 0 and 1. I also set SHOF at mid range.The strange thing is after exiting the SM and adjusting color-brightness-hue etc, using DVE, I find that adjusting the Sharpness level doesn't seem to really do anything.

Anyway, something I may have to live with until I get this unit ISF'd. Does anyone have any setting tips for the rest of the items located in Advance Program. As in, what settings for BN Smoother-Clear White-Detail Enhancer-Color Enhancer, etc....

I suppose this may be way out there, but has anyone had their unit ISF'd, and what might be some of the values of the various categories? I guess these settings may vary from unit to unit depending on Hours of Bulb usage.

Any help on this Sharpness condition is appreciated,

thanks

nc2

notcat2 -

I did all of umr's tweaks on my 60WE610 and found it to be a little too soft for my taste although the black levels, detail, and color were in fact much better, so below is what I had posted (with my slight SM variations to sharpen it up a bit) a few days ago regarding umr's SM tweaks with some more help from umr...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by umr
Added some more info to the tweaks that people might find useful.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

umr - What specifically did you add?

Also, re:

Originally posted by bsgoren
No thanks, not that brave. But, I was thinking about it and wondered if you knew of a SM "edge enhancement" adjustment that could be made to the Pro mode? I think if that could be done to clean up the edges (outlines), then it would be as close to perfect as possible. Is there such an adjustment in the SM for Pro mode? Thank you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[QUOTE]Originally posted by umr
The edges looked clean to me the way they are. I would play with USHP, SHF0, MVLS and MHLC if want an "enhanced" look.

umr - I changed the USHP to 63 (from 0 and then 55) and MHLC to 0 (from 1) and that seemed to sharpen the edges a bit more (although still not quite as sharp as Vivid mode); I tried leaving MHLC at 1 but it was fuzzy. I left SHF0 at 15 and MVLS at 0. Somehow, these settings are bit better to me. This is all kind of strange Anyhow, thank you again!

bsgoren,

I dated the changes in the first post and include a list at the bottom of the post. Here is the current list of changes.

Edit - 12/29/03

Added more information on how to enter the service menu and make these changes.

Edit 12/30/03

Added step-by-step instructions.

Edit 12/31/03

Corrected error in instructions for SHF0. Removed warning about 480p players based on a comment from someone with a different player that had no problems. Added brightness level adjustment for inputs other than DVI to procedure. Added other service menu adjustments that people may find useful.

Edit - 1/2/04

Added some geometry adjustments for the more adventurous.

Enjoy your tweaked GWIII.:)

Umr, is the GWIII able to be used as a PC monitor? I know it has a DVI port on the back and that the instruction manual says is compliant with EIA-867 standard for HD-TV but not for use with a PC any idea why?
Am I correct in guessing I would have to use the RGB or S-video inputs on the TV from my PC's video card to use it as a monitor?

Originally posted by umr
bsgoren,

I dated the changes in the first post and include a list at the bottom of the post. Here is the current list of changes.

Enjoy your tweaked GWIII.:)

Yes, umr, I know about your changes in your first post. Thank you. I just thought notcat2 might be seeing the same thing I saw after I first tweaked my GWIII...i.e. a much improved picture that was still a bit too fuzzy, so I thought I'd share my experience and the settings I used (your tweaks with a couple of small changes) to improve the sharpness. I think I now have the PQ I was looking for! :) Thanks again.

Originally posted by brewc
... Am I correct in guessing I would have to use the RGB or S-video inputs on the TV from my PC's video card to use it as a monitor?

That is not correct. I have not played with this myself, but here is a thread on the subject.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=321968&highlight=gwiii

Originally posted by bsgoren
... thought I'd share my experience and the settings I used (your tweaks with a couple of small changes) to improve the sharpness. I think I now have the PQ I was looking for! :) Thanks again.

I'm glad. I don't agree that it is an improvement, but heck as long as your happy that is what matters.

UMR

Any thoughts on how well the human eye resolves at normal viewing distances and when edge enhancements give the illusion of a sharper picture?

Originally posted by JimP
UMR

Any thoughts on how well the human eye resolves at normal viewing distances and when edge enhancements give the illusion of a sharper picture?

The eye's resolving power and edge enhancements are different topics to me. Edge enhancement adds artificial edges to an image that distort the picture. Your ability to see details varies with the acuity of your vision and the distance from the source. I would test my ability to see details at a distance independently from the edge enhancement of a display.

So I was going to tweak again and use some of bsgoren's tips. This time using a Sound&Vision/Ovation Software dvd test pattern. It was an Anamorphic Wide screen Test pattern that was used. I basically had the pattern on screen, TV in Pro mode, and decided to hit "reset" on the remote. Bam! Things cleared up dramatically, I scrolled through the User Menu to compare what settings had changed and found it was really only one that mattered. It's the DRC Mode, now it was in the default of High Dens., I selected Cinemotion and immediately noticed the difference of clarity. So I guess it's not for everybody (UMR's setting of Cinemotion).

I went ahead into the Service Menu and returned SHOF setting to original 20, also tried bsgoren's suggestion of USHP to 63, MHLC to 0. I did notice best resolution is MHLC at 1 or 0, anything higher I start to see distortion on the Sharpness test pattern.

My wife was impressed at all the things I was doing to our set, she wanted to know how much more "tweaking" would an ISF Calibrator do. I told her I would find out from the Tweakers at AVS forum, So just how much more does the ISF job entail?

One last mention, special thanks for the Geometry categories, my set was overscanned (almost 5%), now it's much better. For reference only, here were my findings on that issue:

DHPH (Horizontal position) - old setting 103 - new setting 116
DVPH (Vertical position) - old setting 13 - new setting 33
MDHS (Horizontal size) - old setting 224 - new setting 202
MDVS (Vertical size) - old setting 128 - new setting 106

Someone let me know just what ISF entails, previous postings appear that a technician will connect a laptop computer and perform calibrations.

I'll get it done sometime within the next few months, most likely after I get a DVI capable DVD player. I'll then post some of the adjustments made.

thanks guys,

nc2

Unless umr or bsgoren are planning a trip to the Bay Area soon when I receive my back-ordered 60WE610, Ill need a referral. This stuff is way over my head.

How do I go about finding a qualified tech. to tweak my set when it arrives?

I live in Marin County, just 25 minutes north of San Francisco.

Thanks!!!

China

How do I go about finding a qualified tech. to tweak my set when it arrives?

Try here
http://www.imagingscience.com/isf-trained.cfm

notcat2,

An ISF calibration might do little to improve your picture or quite a bit. It depends on how good a job you did.

A good calibrator should have test equipment available to set the user menu levels on devices other than the DVD input. This will make more of a difference if your player does not output near the desired level. Your other devices also need to output near the desired level for this to work.

The technician should also have some method for measuring gray scale. The change in PQ will depend on how good a job you did at setting gray scale.

An ISF calibration on your set may be a waste of time or it might help considerably. It depends on your skill. There is little that he/she will do on these sets beyond what is described in this thread. Some may not even do as much. I know one person who paid $400 for someone to do nothing more than use Avia on his DVD player and set the user menu settings. You need to determine what will be done and decide if it has a chance of bringing you any value.

notcat2,

The High Density setting is an abomination.

Originally posted by umr
notcat2,

The High Density setting is an abomination. Why? I haven't implemented your settings yet, but without SM changes I've found High Density to be the best setting for SD. Cinemotion is way too blurry with the DRC Palette (1, 100) I've been using, and most of the SD stuff I watch doesn't require 3:2 pulldown.

DLiquid,

I have not looked at every combination of settings, but High Density looked very poor on those I did look at.

Originally posted by DLiquid
Why? I haven't implemented your settings yet, but without SM changes I've found High Density to be the best setting for SD. Cinemotion is way too blurry with the DRC Palette (1, 100) I've been using, and most of the SD stuff I watch doesn't require 3:2 pulldown.

DLiquid -

Try leaving it at Cinemotion and changing DRC R/C to 50/50 or 1/1 (as umr suggested) or even at 50/1. I've found that sliding the Clarity setting too much without adjusting the Reality setting accordingly will make the picture way too fuzzy, and it will be its fuzziest at the setting you suggested (1/100). Also, for a sharper picture, Mild Mode should be off. Even before I did umr's SM tweaks, I tried your suggested DRC settings and found them to be much too soft for my taste, so I played around a bit more until I found a much crisper PQ with Cinemotion and R/C.

I know you know what you're doing (as I've read your first posts about UM Tweaking of your GWIII), but I think you'll notice a MAJOR difference and a much improved PQ with all umr's SM changes and other tweaks we've discussed here in the past few weeks. UMR's SM tweaks WILL improve your GWIII's black level detail (it will significantly reduce the black crush), improve the tones (especially flesh tones), calibrate the colors, reduce the red push, and with a little playing around with some of the SM settings described in umr's first post in this thread, you'll see what we all see now. I for one, had my previous Sony CRT RPTV set ISF calibrated (which btw didn't help much), and did more to my new GWIII to improve the PQ (with very successful results with umr's help of course) than the ISF calibrator did and it cost me nothing but a couple hours of my time! :D

umr's tweaks have worked wonders on my set (insert stereotypical ad grin here)! :)

I agree that setting your DRC to 1,100 is like saying to your set, "Please make everything as blurry as possible". It is likely your High Density Mode setting is just offsetting your DRC. umr's settings tend to make everything "look as bad as it really is", which I find to personally be the best settings. I would rather have a kick a** HD and DVD picture and have SD look a bit big-pixelled and overly compressed. Smoothing out those big pixels gives me a picture that I just don't care for.

I recently received my DVE disk and plan to make another whole pass at tweaks sometime soon. The set looks very very good right now, but can always be better :).

I have a Panasonic DVD-S35 DVD player and in the setup there is a black level setting. It's only 2 choices are "lighter" and "darker". Which one to choose? The manual says very little about this option. anyone familiar? I was hoping for a "disabled" setting to disable any enhancements the DVD player is doing.

Also, I notice that even if I enable or disable the "progressive" setting on the DVD player, the SM reports it is 480i. It is hooked up to my TV via component cables. Any ideas?

Originally posted by bobby_t1
I have a Panasonic DVD-S35 DVD player and in the setup there is a black level setting. It's only 2 choices are "lighter" and "darker". Which one to choose? The manual says very little about this option. anyone familiar? I was hoping for a "disabled" setting to disable any enhancements the DVD player is doing.

Also, I notice that even if I enable or disable the "progressive" setting on the DVD player, the SM reports it is 480i. It is hooked up to my TV via component cables. Any ideas?

I would get a different player. I like the XP30 myself, but you will need to buy it used off Ebay. I believe this is the one that gave me poor results on progressive.

I set the black level to "lighter". You need to press display and switch the player to 480p to enable progressive. It is a little tricky you must press display about 3 times till you get to a picture that you can select. You must then scroll through the choices until you see 480i. Once you see 480i you must scroll to it and select 480p.

Originally posted by umr
I would get a different player. I like the XP30 myself, but you will need to buy it used off Ebay. I believe this is the one that gave me poor results on progressive.


Since you have said the 480p out of the XP30 is poor, then it must be the 480i performance you are talking about. Is the 480i performance of it going to be that much better over my S35? My S35 was $60, while the XP30 off ebay is $300.

I was really hoping to get a DVI player this year as ppl say many manufacturers are releasing them in 2004, but I'm not sure if this is a pipe dream or not.

Originally posted by bobby_t1
Since you have said the 480p out of the XP30 is poor, then it must be the 480i performance you are talking about. Is the 480i performance of it going to be that much better over my S35? My S35 was $60, while the XP30 off ebay is $300.

I was really hoping to get a DVI player this year as ppl say many manufacturers are releasing them in 2004, but I'm not sure if this is a pipe dream or not.

I guess I was not clear it was the S35 that was poor on 480p. The XP30 is excellent on 480p and OK on 480i.

I do not believe the DVI players are the best idea. I would get the XP30.

Originally posted by BTDT
I agree that setting your DRC to 1,100 is like saying to your set, "Please make everything as blurry as possible". It is likely your High Density Mode setting is just offsetting your DRC. umr's settings tend to make everything "look as bad as it really is", which I find to personally be the best settings.I'll definitely be trying umr's tweaks as soon as I have some time and my current jet lag has dissipated. The only reason I started with DRC 1,100 is because (I think) umr's GWII PDF recommended those settings. Since they looked good with High Dens, and not blurry, I stuck with them. But what you're saying about my High Dens and DRC Palette settings offsetting each other makes sense.

Originally posted by BTDT
I would rather have a kick a** HD and DVD picture and have SD look a bit big-pixelled and overly compressed.I'm not sure about the XBR, but on the WE the DRC stuff only applies to 480i sources. So for me HD and DVD are not affected by my DRC settings.

Originally posted by DLiquid
I'll definitely be trying umr's tweaks as soon as I have some time and my current jet lag has dissipated. The only reason I started with DRC 1,100 is because (I think) umr's GWII PDF recommended those settings. ...

DRC is interactive with other settings. Version 5.0 and earlier of the GWII Tweaks recommended (1,100). Version 5.1 recommended (1,1) after I found an input frequency bandwidth parameter that changed it.

DRC in these sets do not behave like the GWII. I do not know why, but they don't. I was surprised with what I saw on test patterns with different settings.