The Ultimate Rainbow Discussion Thread

Please post all of your R A I N B O W thoughts and questions related to DLP projectors in this thread and this thread ONLY!

All new threads discussing R A I N B O W S will be deleted so please post all of your questions and opinions here and here only!

The regular rules (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=282243) of the forum apply, any post that breaks the rules will be deleted.

For some great information right off the bat you can try this X1 Rainbow Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=324164)

Thanks for cooperating and don't forget to keep it clean. :)

Kysersose

I just did a search in this group for the word "rainbow." Only one other thread in the first page of search results, besides this new one, had the word rainbow in the title. (There were plenty of X1 threads though.)

Giving rainbows it's own official thread blows out of proportion a very minor annoyance for most people. I just hope it isn't a sticky thread because I would hate to see the word "rainbow" everytime I opened the under $3500 group.

In the interest of fairness I hope we have a dedicated sticky thread related specifically to premature LCD panel failure.

You don't get to see how many threads we delete and close on a daily basis. I own an LT240K and have no problems with rainbows.
IMHO "Rainbows" are blown WAY out of proportion in this forum.
I've still yet to meet ONE person who can see them that is NOT a member of this forum.

Just look at it this way... this is the only place to talk about rainbows from now on. If you don't want to read about rainbows then this should be the only thread that you have to avoid. We're not picking on DLP, we're just trying to avoid multiple rainbow threads day after day.

EDIT: It won't be a "sticky" forever.
Just until the point gets across.

I can see what simmike is saying but when I first saw this sticky I felt it was a good idea. I own an X1 and see most movies without ever seeing a rainbow. On the rare occasion I see one it is nothing. I have not had anyone mention seeing one who has viewed my set up. None of them read AVSFORUM. I can make my self see a rainbow effect if the visual circumstances are right in a projected image. I just don't do that. And I don't react if I do see one. The reaction and the searching bring them forth. It's like an audiophile listening for that one bad (and rare) slight audible imperfect sound in an otherwise perfect sound system.
Sometimes you've got to look through the screen to see the movie.
My PJ has improved a lot since I first got it. Some of the improvements were in the hardware and software. Some weren't.

Yes, this has been ARGUED about too much. For people that don't see it, it's overblown. For people that see it, it's not. It's a personal experience. There is nothing to argue and get upset about. Just ignore the posts and it will drop out of sight even before the mods can spot and delete them.

There are also many posts that discuss possible remedies. Just do a search. Try different setups. Don't throw in the towel the moment you see rainbows for the first time.

We MAY see more LCD panel failures in one or two years. Or we may not. We don't know. The nature of the two 'issues' are quite different. Don't make this DLP vs LCD. Someone has already pointed out a $80 part replacement solution (or hopefully a $200-$300 service solution). So if we're lucky that our bulb last at least 2000 hours, we can save some money and get a qualified technician to change the part. And whoever manages to change the panel polarizer himself and not screw up his/her pj will definitely get saluted by fellow forum members.

Enough of my ranting. NEXT!

i went to an electronics show with a couple of friends and we were watching "blackhawk down" (i think) on a dlp projector. after a minute i thought to myself---hey not too shabby. my friends had sour faces because they saw rainbows and i said "what do you mean" the explained it to me and suddenly i saw it everywhere. if you know how to look==you will see them. the thing i'm not sure about is if you just give it time--will you eventually "teach yourself how to see them?" sadly i'll never know.
can anyone shed some light on this? (no pun intended)

Originally posted by simmike
I just did a search in this group for the word "rainbow." Only one other thread in the first page of search results, besides this new one, had the word rainbow in the title. (There were plenty of X1 threads though.)

Giving rainbows it's own official thread blows out of proportion a very minor annoyance for most people. I just hope it isn't a sticky thread because I would hate to see the word "rainbow" everytime I opened the under $3500 group.

In the interest of fairness I hope we have a dedicated sticky thread related specifically to premature LCD panel failure.


Wow, does someone have an inferiority complex!
I will deal with the LCD panel failure when and if it comes. I can deal with the slightly less contrast my Z2 provides over a great DLP.
What I cannot and will not accept is rainbows CONSTANTLY ruining my viewing experience.
I have seen rainbows from the first second I laid my eyes on a (good) DLP projector (the Dwin Transvision back a few years ago at AVS in Rochester).
I was really hoping that that would be my first projector. Sadly I could not live with rainbows. They are VERY real to me. My wife could not see them, but they bothered me too much to accept them. I will admit my eyes dart around when I watch movies. That's how I use my eyes all the time. Because of this life time habit (that contributes to my great eye sight btw,) I cannot just stop my eyes from moving around, nor do I want to.
Maybe soon we'll have a 8x speed color wheel that will finally let me enjoy an otherwise great picture. Until then my new not too bad looking Z2 will do.
Zed

I had an X1 demo at my house over Thanksgiving, as I wanted to see if I had any trouble with rainbows before purchasing one. I did not see rainbows, even when I tried. More than 20 people saw different movies over the long weekend (Shrek, TTT, North by Northwest), and none said anything about seeing rainbows. (I did not ask if anyone saw them, but I have the kind of family that would say "what the $&#* are all those flashes/colors/lightspots", etc. if they saw something that looked wierd.) Mostly comments about how god the image was for under a grand.

I have to agree that the rainbow issue is one that is VERY case by case, and anyone contemplating an X1 or any other DLP get a demo to see what, if any, effect it has on you.

IMHO "Rainbows" are blown WAY out of proportion in this forum.
I've still yet to meet ONE person who can see them that is NOT a member of this forum.

I just leapt out of my chair and gave you a standing ovation. Here, here!
This is the best post I have read on this forum in a month.

Let it be known that I own two DLP based displays and no one gets sick, starts vomiting, head spins or anything else looking at these devices.
I BELIEVE people ARE distracted by them, the FEW that DO see them but I am starting to think there is some Anti-DLP stuff going on to scare people away from these displays.
Let it also be known that there is a number of people that ALMOST passed on DLP displays because of lack of information. THE ONLY WAY TO BE SURE is to try out a display for YOURSELVES.

Some displays have slower color wheels and seeing the individual colors is more likely than a faster color wheel. I own teo diferent speed color wheel displays and see no rainbows. My guests don't see them, my family doesn't see them.

I REALIZE some of you have seen them so I don't want to be flamed.

There's also the factor that people that DID see colors initially STOPPED seeing them after a couple weeks. Try it and give it some time.

Hopefully TI will introduce their SCR wheel sometime in the near future. Then maybe we won't have to have any threads about rainbows.

Does any one know if TI is close to bringing it to reality or did it get thrown on the back burner?

Originally posted by Dean Martin

Let it be known that I own two DLP based displays and no one gets sick, starts vomiting, head spins...

Man, I hate it when that happens! :D

Folks, as has been said before, buy one with a good return policy, get a loaner, go to a friends house or whatever but don't rule out the X1 or any other DLP-based device based upon RFE (rainbow fear effect). RFE, yep that one could catch on. ;)

JayW
A Happy X1 Owner with no vomiting, head-spinning, rainbow-seeing friends or family...

I for one am glad there are rainbow discussions here. If I had not known about them, I would not have been "forewarned" about them when I demo'ed an X1 recently. Since I did see flashes and distracting colors while viewing the picture, and especially when I turned my head to talk to the salesman, I was glad to know what I was experiencing. If I had not known about the effect, and bought the projector thinking I just had tired eyes that day, it would have been a mistake because YES, the DLP 2x images do tire my eyes and distract me.

LCD has more screen door problems, imo, but is still the choice for me because the rainbow effect drives me bonkers.


IMO - the X1 is a great projector with many happy owners, but do yourself a favor and make sure you do a live demo or buy from a place with a liberal return policy just in case you do find the rainbows bothersome.

Since I did see flashes and distracting colors while viewing the picture, and especially when I turned my head to talk to the salesman, I was glad to know what I was experiencing.
To those who may be interested in a DLP PJ: Watch an entire movie without reacting to or looking for these rainbows. I saw them, too, in a hi-end A/V store.
We have used our X1 since July and have logged 400 hours. No one who has viewed it has mentioned rainbows. When I have pointed them out I am aware that the person really didn't need to be alerted to looking for distracting visuals on the screen. They see more after that. If I persist they may even eventually become a videophile :) but I stop short of that. Better they just remain unaware of technical concerns and watch the movie.
It's good to get real intense about creating an excellent HT but then it's good to just be in the audience.

Rainbows go away and their fleeting and rare reminders are nothing to me now. But when I purchased my X1 the store manager had to sign my receipt asserting that there would be no restocking fee. I was sure the X1 would be returned. It wasn't :D

OK. I'll say it here. Rainbows don't bother me but they are there if that is what you are looking for. They may go away when you watch the movie instead. That is the problem with the demo.

It is true that some are more bothered by them and at different times you will see more of them and that screen size and settings matter and that some films seem to have more of them. The other night I watched "Castaway" with Tom Hanks and they were all over the place. Not a clue why - everything else was the same - except that it was me being sensitive to them - no one else said a word about them, and maybe didn't even see them, but I haven't sent my guests to this forum yet. They just ask me which projector they should buy and I tell them to get the X1.

Also. sometimes I "think" I see a quick rainbow at the CineMax or when watching TV now. What is that about? And Darin said he went from DLP to LCD and then saw them when he went back to DLP. What is that?

I agree that this topic is way overblown, and don't pass up on the X1 because of it, but there is something there and I have often learned something new and interesting from the different RB threads. We ought to pull up some of the old ones where we had opthomologists and vision engineers arguing/informing/sharing. It is an interesting topic.

Thanks everyone for your informative info. I think it may have been me who got this sticky thread started as I asked the question a few days ago. Some good responses in that thread and some a bit rude but the replies were as expected in a large public forum such as this one.

I brought home an X1 from Best Buy today and watched Matrix Reloaded on a 75" wall. I saw quite a bit of rainbows in the first 45 minutes and decided this was not to be my first PJ I own.

I'm glad that rainbows are discussed because I would have thought it was the DVD or something having to do with ALL projectors, as I've never owned one before and without this forum, I may have been turned away for good. My wife didn't see any rainbows though, even though I told her what to look for. I guess it really does just come down to some people being able to notice this stuff and other not. My wife is surprised can I read a book in the car because she gets sick when she tries. Guess we all have different sensitivity levels for this stuff. I really thank all of the knowledgable discussion in this forum.

Back to my original question in the thread earlier this week. If I see rainbows on the X1, which I did, what's the next step up PJ to rid them? Is it the NEC 240K? That's within my budget. But if people say it has to be at least an HT1000, I'll have to heavily lean towards LCD for my budget of staying less than $3K at all cost.

I saw the Sharp PG-A10X which competes in the price range of the X1 and liked it quite a bit. It may just be the fact that it's the first PJ I've watched in my house. I'm glad there are some choices in the $1K range.

Thanks all for making me a PJ junkie now,
Alan

Nice one Psych1.

I also think is more of a mental thing. I saw the X1 (actually the 4800), the other day, with my wife, in a high-end dealer, and the only thing I was loocking for were for those nasty things.
In a demo such as this, we always want to see the worst things we can probably buy (specially if you spend a lot of time in this forums :) ), and don't really see the film, or the really cool image it can provide.

The wife loved it. Of course I didn't mentioned the rainbow. I slightly start to explain her... but then I realized how ridiculous I was being. And she didn't even care. Her opinion (sometimes) matters most than others. Not only because she's my wife, but because she is a 'tech' free mind. She will only see what she's liking. In opposition of my way of seeing things. Is very important this kind of input.
And it isn't entirely passive:
For example: she remind me, out of the blue, how great the image was, even better than the projector we used to watch, at my brother's.
He have a Panasonic AE300! And she were right! And add this 'it hasn't the same resolution, but overall is better'. 'Resolution'... What were you smoking? Are you reading the same stuff I am!?

In conclusion, I agree this is more of a non-issue, or a issue for us guys that over study this problems, always seeking the best, and for that piking and exaggerating with the worst. Even when you probably didn't notice them, if you were never told about!;)

AB

But since we'll probably wont change, I think it would be nice that, in this thread, we talk about all the tweaks to minimize them.
I can always see threads talking about 'I can see them' or 'I can't', but few that talk how to get rive of them.
I'm going to buy the X1. I have no doubt about it now. But, as everything, I would like it to give me the better image I can provide.
How does the 'rainbow effect' is affected with this factors:

Bigger/smaller image versus seating distance;
Ambient light;
Screen - white v gray;
filters;
contrast/brightness/color...;
others

AB

The problem of rainbow-thread-clutter had already been adressed when the old threads had been merged together into one "official x1-rainbow thread."

When you deleted that thread to start agian from scratch, you threw away dozens of useful rainbow-reduction tips.

no kidding, I was hoping this thread would include remedies for rainbow, not just "I see it" or "i don't see it".

Originally posted by JeffStickney
The problem of rainbow-thread-clutter had already been adressed when the old threads had been merged together into one "official x1-rainbow thread."

When you deleted that thread to start agian from scratch, you threw away dozens of useful rainbow-reduction tips. I do like the idea of having this more generic rainbow thread instead of one that is specific to the X1, since rainbows are not specific to the X1.

The old "Official" X1 thread still exists here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=324164

But I agree this new thread added some confusion. Perhaps it would make sense to merge these threads rather than have TWO Official threads?

I do like the idea of having this more generic rainbow thread instead of one that is specific to the X1, since rainbows are not specific to the X1.

Exactly!

I will add a link to the X1 thread in the opening post but I don't think I'll merge them just yet.

Originally posted by simmike

Giving rainbows it's own official thread blows out of proportion a very minor annoyance for most people. I just hope it isn't a sticky thread because I would hate to see the word "rainbow" everytime I opened the under $3500 group.


I think that having a thread where folks who don't see / are not bothered by rainbows (I assume you don't have a problem with them) can post is a great idea.

Some see 'em. Most don't. Having this thread will keep rainbows from becoming a distraction (pun intended) in other threads.

Our official home statistics during X1 demo: 3 didn't. 1 did. 1 got a headache but no idea why - could also be from watching a bright screen in an otherwise dark room.

I think this thread is a good idea

IMHO "Rainbows" are blown WAY out of proportion in this forum.
I've still yet to meet ONE person who can see them that is NOT a member of this forum.

that is like saying doctors make people sick since all the people at his office are sick :)

people that don't come here do see them, they just don't know to call them rainbows

people that don't come here do see them, they just don't know to call them rainbows
I've had family, friends, co-workers & guests that total over 50 people now. All of them have watched numerous movies (and sporting events) in my HT, not one of them have ever seen a rainbow or even begun to understand what one is when asked. Whenever I have AVS members over... there's always a couple of them who see them. Might it be that they read about them on this forum and instinctively look for them? Maybe.

I do know that some people can spot them without even knowing about them, It's just that I've yet to meet such a person.

For what it's worth... when I bought my first DLP a few years back I had a lot of trouble finding rainbows. But with a little help from this forum... :) I figured out how to find them. Then I went back to watching the movie (not looking for rainbows) and they went away in a heartbeat.

I'm still waiting for a non AVS'er to walk in my house and say... "what the hell was that!?" If it turns out to be 1 in a hundred... I can live with that. ;)

I have non AVS' members come over and all have been shell shocked in terms of how good the picture is on the X1. All of them are in disbelief that you can have such a huge/great picture for so little money. I invite two AVS members over who of course run the "flying fingures in your face method" and see them immediately. They both own LCD projectors and need to justify it in their own minds......

Kysersose, I think you may be right. If a person doesn't know it's there, he won't notice it but once he learns what to look for, it's real noticeable.

This may be like those funky squiggly prints at malls a decade ago with the 3D image hidden in it. You only saw it when you defocused the picture and looked past it. It took me awhile to notice it but then when I learned how to see the picture, it became real easy. Same can be said about those guide wires in Trinitron CRTs. Before someone pointed them out to me, I never noticed but now I always see them.

Not sure if one has to be trained to see these rainbows. After explaining to my wife what to look for, she still hasn't seen a single rainbow after viewing a few movies. She thinks the X1 I brought home produces an awesome picture. She agrees that the Sony HS20 produces a better picture but it's not 3x better so, why isn't the Sony $1500? I don't know how to argue against that.


Alan

Originally posted by Kysersose
I'm still waiting for a non AVS'er to walk in my house and say... "what the hell was that!?" If it turns out to be 1 in a hundred... I can live with that. ;) I know I haven't been to your house :) , but I am one of the people that happened to. Long before I became a member here and before I had ever heard of a DLP television I was walking by the TV display area at my local Fry's. I took a quick look at one of the sets on display and literally said to my friends "What the hell was that?" I had seen a rainbow. My friends didn't see it and of course thought I was nuts, and even I wasn't sure as I didn't see any more while I was looking at the set. It took me finding my way here to figure out what it was I had seen.

I went to see an X1 demo this weekend, in about 30 minutes, TRYING to see rainbows, I saw none...

My concern about the prominent placement of this DLP rainbow thread relates back to an earlier era when debates were raging about the audibility of mysterious distortions in High end Audio Systems. In the end this was won by a group of "Golden Ears" who insisted they could hear things as insignificant as the gage of wall plug wire used. This led to a generation of Audiophiles who gladly pay for pointy speaker feet, 1/2" thick power wires and outrageously expensive low powered tube amps dispite measurable proof that these make no significant difference to the final sound.


People tend to see (or hear) what they expect and focusing on the rainbow "defect" while ignoring other display problems may tend to exagerate this situation. I don't doubt that rainbows are a significant problem to a minority of people but screen-door effect and banding in LCD tecnologies are visible to all. I hope we don't get into the situation where we awaiting the 124X speed wheel or 3 panel displays to solve what turns out to be a relativley minor DLP artifact.

I question what can be accomplished here that hasn't already been discussed spontaneously in other threads.

I question what can be accomplished here that hasn't already been discussed spontaneously in other threads.

That's easy. One continuous thread on rainbows with all the information anyone will need. If you don't want to read about rainbows, you will only have to avoid this thread. And... no more "do you see rainbows?" threads popping up day after day.
Trust me, they were getting deleted more than you think.

I'm one of those rare birds who can wiggle my eyes at about 10Hz at will. I tried this recently with an NEC 240k, with which I had been seeing rainbows sporadically without the eye wiggle. When I wiggled my eyes, the rainbows leaped out at me, which got me to thinking. For those who have a high level of saccades - those small but continuous eye movements, the rainbows will be visible, but for those with lower levels of saccades, the rainbows will be less apparent. When the frequency of saccades, or a harmonic of same, approaches that of the wheel rotation speed, then the saccades will be more apparent.

Just a thought
bp

Oops, I meant the rainbows will be more apparent, not the saccades.

bp

Originally posted by Grandarf
I went to see an X1 demo this weekend, in about 30 minutes, TRYING to see rainbows, I saw none...

That was my experience as well. Darn near gave myself a whiplash injury trying to see what all this was about! Not sure if I saw any or not . . . maybe.

What floored me was that a PJ this inexpensive gave about what I had 8 years ago with a Runco 750T priced more than three times as much.

I would never intentionally look for shortcomings in a PJ technology. Doesn't it sound stupid to wiggle fingers in front of your eyes when watching a film, looking for something you won't see otherwise?

For me, rainbow was really apparent on a $1K DLP. Now my choices are move up the food chain or deal for possible shortcomings of other technology at the same price point.

Floman, you saw rainbows on the 240K? What a bummer. I was trying to figure out how much money I'd need to spend on a PJ and it keeps going up. I've just been using BBs and Frys liberal return policy to test at home.

Yelnats, regarding screendoor, do people who want to sit close to the screen opt for DLP? This hasn't been an issue with any of the 3 PJs I've watched at home, X1, PG-A10X, HS20. Largest screen width I've used is 90" which was variable due to throw distance of each model and I sit 14' back. I had no SDE with any of these. I'd see it if I walked within 6' of the screen but that's just not normal for my situation.


Alan

If you realy look for them you can see them. I see them less often with any progressive signal..

I have seen rainbows on a LT-150 at work before I joined AVS, I just didn't know exactly what they were back then. I have also seen rainbows on pj's before knowing they were DLP. I have one eye a lot more prominent than the other, so I don't know if that's it. I also don't do the head bob, dance the "Funky Chicken", or whatever else you have to see them. I would like to know if DLP sufferers have no problem with the newer higher speed colorwheels. I tried watching a movie with the same LT-150 and even though the rainbows weren't that visible, both my wife and I got eye fatigue and slight headaches in about an hour. The movie was "Batman Forever" (quite dark)

If anyone thinks I'm biased towards LCD because of my purchase, my answer is that I don't have any pj yet, so I'm coming in neutral. I WANT to love DLP, but am afraid my choice is limited to LCD, unless I can find a local retailer willing to give me a newer DLP "test drive".

Krillin, I had feelings about PJ technology opposite to yours. I used to HATE!!! LCDS. I was so excited about DLP technology when it came out, I drove 250miles just to see one in action and maybe purchase.
I was totally heartbroken when rainbows appeared out of nowhere. I have been seeing them whenever I watch DLPs.
Ironically now I own an LCD projector. I would have never believed if someone said "one day you'll own an LCD projector". I woudl have thought they were nuts or something.

I'm one of those rare birds who can wiggle my eyes at about 10Hz at will.

That is so cool!

FWIW, after reading about rainbows, but not really remembering to look for them, I saw a nice expensive Sharp DLP in a showroom, and didn't see rainbows.

I'm starting to think that if the choice is between rainbows and FPN, I'll go with the rainbows. FPN stands out every time there's a pan. It's very distracting.

I would like to second the question about faster colour wheels. Would a 5x matterhorn resolve this issue for many? If 2x rainbows is 1% of the population, could we assume something like 5x rainbows is 0.1% of the population?

Martin.

simmike

I think it is valid to mention rainbows.

We talk about vertical banding, dithering, pixel noise etc. Why can a rainbow effect not be the same as any of these things issues or flaws in system that only a few people can see, including me?

To me DLP has a better picture( contract, sharpness, black levels, etc.) than LCD but when I blink my eyes I see noticeable rainbows. To me this is worse than other artifacts in the image. The fortunate thing for most people, only a select few can see the rainbows.

Luckily we have other choices besides DLP, so let it go and hopefully manufacturers keep making better projectors.

It seem the only reason is why LCD keeps improving is DLP has taken a piece of their market share, otherwise no need to improve a product if there is no competition.So DLP will keep getting better.

If we customers except all of there flaws without criticizing or complaining, no improvement would ever be made by the manufacturer.

Competition can be a good thing.


Ross

Everyone seems to want to defend whatever they spent money on. This is natural, of course, but it starts to sound like a Ford vs. Chevy argument.

DLPs work because of a trick of the visual system that integrates sequential color over time. Different individuals have very significant differences in how their eyes/brains receive and interpret colors. What you see is not what everyone else sees. I've noticed that there is some overlap between people who can't stand unballasted flourescent lights, need 80Hz CRT monitors, and see rainbows. It's a persistence of vision thing. If you can't see them, then you're lucky, but don't presume that it's not an issue. DLPs (at least at 2x) are the only video system that some percentage of the population can't watch at all. That sucks, a lot.

For the record, I own a DLP. It has a 5x RGBRGB wheel, and I still see rainbows. I'm not looking for them, nor moving my eyes or head about strangely. They're infrequent enough that I can live with them, in exchange for the benefits of better contrast and perfect convergence.

For me, 2x DLPs are like an acid trip. I'm glad that most people don't see what I see. But don't presume to know what other people can see.

One note...the comparison was made to audiophiles with "golden ears." Of course, while there are those who swear by ultra-low oxygen copper cabling, massive aftermarket power cables, and other hokum, every double blind test of cables has come up negative. The high-end cable industry is founded on the placebo effect..."if it's expensive, it must sound good!" However, most of us can immediately recognize whether a projector is DLP or LCD, and plenty of those could identify 2x vs. 5x color wheels.

I agree with Scoby. Rainbows on a 2x dlp are everywhere for me. I have to concentrate on keeping my eyes very still just to tolerate watching a movie. I also get very motion sick in cars and boats and anything below 85 hz on a monitor gives me a headache in about 2 minutes. I'm sure there's a correlation there as Scoby theorized.

I don't think this thread is good or bad, but it is not inappropriate.

"Everyone seems to want to defend whatever they spent money on. This is natural, of course, but it starts to sound like a Ford vs. Chevy argument."

Well I have DLP, but I'm not defending it. I see rainbows all the time, but I'll tolerate it till my next projector. The next one will be 16x9 and faster colour wheel.

I bought an X1 - unseen. When I first turned it on it was "Rainbow City" for me. I felt like Cyclops from the X-Men, only in reverse. I couldn't believe that I had just dropped over $1250.00 on something that was so incredibly annoying that I couldn't even concentrate on the content itself. I couldn't bring myself to tell my wife that they were driving me crazy, since she was hesitant about the whole projector thing in the first place.

My only hope was that the effect might diminish for me over time, as other owners had posted. And guess what, it did. After a couple of days/weeks I wasn't noticing them anywhere near as often. Nine months and over 750 X1 hours later, I might see one or two over the course of a movie, and almost never when playing an Xbox game.

If I had a chance to auditioned the X-1 before buying it, I never would have purchased it. The restocking fee forced me into giving it a fairly long evaluation period, and I'm thankful for that.

One trick that may or may not have worked for me was really forcing myself to see rainbows and sort of overdose on them. When I'd first notice them, I'd start to dart my eyes back and forth and in circles, increasing the effect. It seemed that the more I would do it, the less perceptive I was to the effect. Or, maybe I just looked goofy, but rainbows are not an issue for me anymore.

By the way, my wife also noticed them, but they were never that distracting for her and have decreased over time also. She loves the X-1 too

Scott

We have an LT150 and a progressive scan DVD player and all 5 of us (even the 4 year old) see rainbows every time we watch the Muppet Movie.

Outside of that, in almost 2 years of viewing (over 1600 lamp hours) no-one has ever mentioned a thing about them. Here's hoping my eyesight never gets that "good"!

Maybe this question should be a new thread but,

Will it soon be possible to reasonably and cheaply modify older DLP projectors so that they operate as the newer models - i.e. newer and faster color wheels - or will it just make more sense to get a new one?

Originally posted by Psych1
Will it soon be possible to reasonably and cheaply modify older DLP projectors so that they operate as the newer models - i.e. newer and faster color wheels - or will it just make more sense to get a new one? Easy question to answer. It will never make sense to try to modify an older DLP to increase the color wheel speed. It would require major hardware and software changes. Your only realistic option is to sell your old projector and get a newer one.

Let me start out by saying I have just started looking for a PJ and have been researching them for a little over a month now.

Seeing the strengths of DLP I was pretty certain this was the type of PJ I wanted. I had seen a couple is HT stores and the pictures were incredible; of course they should be on $12,000 units.

A friend had an X1 which was one of the PJs on my short list. After borrowing it last night I have two points: It has an excellent picture and rainbows, rainbows and more rainbows.

I didn’t notice any for the first hour, wasn’t looking for them either. I was just in awe of the picture, watching The Patriot (Superbit). Well after scanning through it I decided to toss in Tombstone (Vista Series). I had the PJ sitting on the table next to me and the Tombstone DVD was on a chair on the other side of the table. I reached over and grabbed the DVD, as I was pulling my arm back it passed quickly in front of the projector. On my arm I saw the colors green and red very briefly. At the time I did not really think anything about but that was the trigger. I started watching Tombstone and damnit, rainbows. Every time something white moved quickly across the screen; rainbows, rainbows. The collar of their shirts would generate the most rainbows, especially in darker scenes.

I also had eye fatigue and a slight headache. I don’t know if it was from the PJ or the huge increase in the size of the image over my direct view, most likely the latter.

With that said, I loved the picture and the potential picture when calibrated and used with a screen instead of a brown wall. If you are lucky enough not to be bothered by DLPs this is a great projector for $1000 but based on this experience I may have to reevaluate my choices to include LCDs or scratch PJs altogether. I will not disqualify DLPs because of this, even though rainbows were at times very annoying.

Unfortunately he is only let me to borrow it for one night. I wanted to see, after a full day, if I would still see rainbows and to verify that the fatigue and headache were generated by the screen size increase.

What store, BB, CC, etc., has the best return policy in case I decide to give the X1 a longer demo?

I have owned an LCD projector for about a year now. I have been considering an upgrade to a higher resolution PJ (less SDE) that will also have more contrast than my XGA Panasonic 75u. So I took Mitsubishi up on their "Be our Guest offer" For a week I auditioned a Mitsubishi XD350u. this is a 2X wheel PJ. Well, rainbows were everywhere. I saw them continually in any scene where there was a white next to black image. I never got eye strain or headaches, but I did find them very distracting. Interestingly my wife never saw them, even when I kept saying, "there, look theres is another one." In the course of my one week trial I watched about 15-20 hours on this PJ and the rainbows never ceased.

So my question is, since I was greatly bothered by the rainbows on this 2X color wheel projector, should I eliminate all DLPs from my future upgrade list, or can I expect to see a vast reduction in the rainbow effect on a 4X or 5X color wheel? I think I would really like an NEC HT1000, but I have no way to audition one here in Maui before buying it.

Tom

TCroly,
You might want to check this thread out. It's about another XGA LCD ( Sharp PG-A10X - approx. $1000) which seems to have very little SDE. The very enthusiastic new owner might have some answers for you.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=336796

BTW, I saw rainbows at first (I must put this statement into a macro key or something ;) ), but several months later I see virtually none and when I do they are nothing to me. But one man's ceiling . . .

I'm keeping up with this thread and reading all the new posts - and, I'm seeing more rainbow!! If it wasn't for the good dialog, and great info like Technut's response, I'd give it up and go back to watching movies.

Originally posted by Psych1
I'm keeping up with this thread and reading all the new posts - and, I'm seeing more rainbow!! If it wasn't for the good dialog, and great info like Technut's response, I'd give it up and go back to watching movies.
Uhh . . . Give it up and go back to watching movies? The more you look for R's (the very word seems to make them appear for some - a bit of mass hysteria or group hypnosis is occurring, I think.) the more they will appear.
Perhaps you were speaking in jest. If not, an LCD is what you need.

Note to Red: I bought my X1 at BB and had the manager sign the receipt stating there would be no "restocking fee" if I returned the X1. I was sure rainbows would ruin the deal for me. I am very particular about my Video and Audio systems. Makes my wife crazy. (me too, probably ;) )
For me the R factor is about zero now. I'll keep the rare split-second peek at a tiny slice of color if I could have the blacks a little blacker. But even that is not much of a problem.
400 hours of viewing later I can still say: The X1 rocks; and no one who has seen our HT setup has mention R's. But, they just watch the movie. Watching in a show room was where I saw more R's.

But then, if you're troubled do an LCD like the one I mentioned two posts ago. It's all about watching films.

Originally posted by floman
I'm one of those rare birds who can wiggle my eyes at about 10Hz at will. I tried this recently with an NEC 240k, with which I had been seeing rainbows sporadically without the eye wiggle. When I wiggled my eyes, the rainbows leaped out at me, which got me to thinking. For those who have a high level of saccades - those small but continuous eye movements, the rainbows will be visible, but for those with lower levels of saccades, the rainbows will be less apparent. When the frequency of saccades, or a harmonic of same, approaches that of the wheel rotation speed, then the saccades will be more apparent.

Just a thought
bp

This agrees with my own theory of rainbows: that sensitivity to them is a function of how one uses one's eyes while watching. I have an LT240K and love its picture. I can see rainbows at will on much program material by quickly shifting my attention from one part of the screen to another. My guess is some people have less tendency to dart their eyes while watching.

The other major factor is program material. Any scene with high contrast black/white can be a source, like the THX logo image.

Probably the third most important factor is the model of DLP. I have not auditioned an HT1000, but my guess is I would still see rainbows even with the RGBRGB wheel. It would probably be reduced, but I'm guessing I would still see them.

The bottom line is, though, I still enjoy the projector. Also, I'm not going to spoil it for anyone else by telling them to try to look for rainbows, especially my wife. She still says "WOW" when we fire up a DVD to watch, and I want to keep it that way.

GREAT! I'm now seeing rainbows on my laptop display. Here's a screenshot:











































http://www.cs.arizona.edu/camera/album/jpg/rainbow.jpg


wait...It's supposed to be there :D

Without having read ALL the posts in this thread, I'd like to offer my opinion.

I bought an X1 5 months ago, when I first bought it I saw Rs. Did it bother me? No. Why? Because I got a 110" screen for $1000 bucks. Were they rampant? No. They showed up in specific situations (dark backgrounds with bright lightbulbs for example). Was I aware this maybe the case before I bought the X1? Yes.

5 months later do I still see Rs? Yes. Do I see them as often? No. I've tweaked the settings to suit my room and I truly believe that my brain has adapted to them.

For those out there that want a decent projector for <1000 bucks, don't be thrown off by the demo at the AV store, or the 1 week demo unit you get. Give the X1 and your brain some time to co-habitate.

Just wanted to vote...yes I see them a little bit on my X1 BUT they do not bother or distract us one bit...and no one (so far) has complained.

I do think some folks could see/be bothered but I would not think its 20%..maybe 5 or something like that.

When I first got my X1 I saw no rainbows at all! After about a month I noticed one and I can't stop seeing them since. I find them moderately annoying but tolerable.

I noticed a definite correlation between my tiredness level and the rate at which I can see them. The more tired I am, the more rainbows.

I especially see them when I turn my view off of the screen, not so much when I am directly looking at it.

Originally posted by scoby
I've noticed that there is some overlap between people who can't stand unballasted flourescent lights, need 80Hz CRT monitors, and see rainbows. It's a persistence of vision thing. If you can't see them, then you're lucky, but don't presume that it's not an issue. I'm not looking for them, nor moving my eyes or head about strangely. They're infrequent enough that I can live with them, in exchange for the benefits of better contrast and perfect convergence.

For me, 2x DLPs are like an acid trip. I'm glad that most people don't see what I see. But don't presume to know what other people can see.

You hit it right on the dot for me there. Due to some congenital squint or other combination of factors, my eyes are very sensitive to unballasted fluorescent lights. And I really do set any monitor I come across, to 75Hz or higher, and try to educate everyone about it. Some people could not tell the difference between 60 and 75Hz screen refresh, but after spending some time using the 75/85Hz monitor refresh rate, they invariable report longer attention spans at the terminal, and lower levels of eye fatigue.

So I guess the rainbow effect is possibly similar, in that people may not notice it but it strains their eyes unconsciously. Or maybe some people just have a high tolerance to such artifacts. As CRomiT the Frog once sang:


Why are there so many
posts about rainbows
And what's on the colour wheel
Rainbow's are visions
Distracting illusions
And rainbows have nothing to hide
So we've been told and some chose not to see it
But I know they're wrong wait and see

Someday we'll find it
The Rainbow Connection
The LCDs, the DLPs and me

Who said that every wish
Would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that
And someone believed it
And look what it's done so far
What's so amazing
That keeps us screen gazing
What do we think we might see?

Someday we'll find it
That Rainbow Connection
The LCDs the DLPs and me

Have you been half asleep?
Seen the three-chip versions?
I've heard them calling my name
Are these the sweet sights that beckon my eyes
I think they're one and the same
I've seen it too many times to ignore it
There's something that I'm supposed to see

Someday we'll find it
The Rainbow Connection
The CRTs, the DLPs and me

Something I'd like to see the answer for:

If rainbows are such a big problem, howcome I've never seen a shot from a screen with a rainbow in it?

DLP Rs are not something you can capture in a still screen shot.

because they don't last long enough? As in much faster than the exposure time required by the camera?

Rainbows are only seen in conjunction with eye movent while watching certain scenes on DLP projected images IF in fact you see them at all.
But generally they are associated with moving your eyes around the screen.

start waiving your cameras

I don't think it's possible for a camera to capture a rainbow. If you moved it really fast it would just cause a blurry smeared picture. You might be able to capture a frame of one color, red, blue, or green, if the shutter speed were very fast. It would be interesting to try, but I don't have a digital camera.

I think way more than 5% of 2x DLP owners can see rainbows, but the majority or them don't even know what it is they are seeing. If you never come to this board you probably haven't heard of the "rainbow effect". The percentage of people bothered by them is likely small, but I think most people can see them if they know what to look for.

David777, I think you're right. I bet most people who see rainbows who haven't heard what rainbows are don't know what they're seeing. Without reading on this forum, I would have thought all PJs were this way and that it's not good enough to be mainstream technology for the home yet. Thank goodness I've read enough here to know that there are alternatives albeit with other deficiencies which I'd buy.

Not sure if I'd say most people could see rainbows if they were told what to look for. I told my wife what was causing rainbows for me and through 2 movies, she never saw one but for me, they were all over the place. My own belief after reading on this forum is that probably around 30% see them?

http://www.twentysix.net/HLM507W/artifacts/index.html

Here you are, someone "caught" the rainbow phenomena on camera.
Although I use the term "caught" loosely ...

But this gives you probably the best I could see on film. But there are plenty of great sample mpegs generated out there.

On a side note ...
and to try and be somewhat productive to the thread in general.
Here are some ideas to reduce the opportunity to see rainbows.
1. Grey screen
2. Some ambient lighting
3. Smaller projected image
4. Sit farther from the screen
5. Darker walls and ceiling

More specifically, whatever changes were made to the X1 to turn it into the GOO projector. While at Infocomm, I saw little to no rainbows on their display model. However, I typically see them all over the place on the X1 here.

My own belief after reading on this forum is that probably around 30% see them?

I disagree. I won't put a number on it but I would guess much much lower.

Out of the couple of dozen people who've seen my HT no one has mentioned R's. And when questioned they seem to think nothing of them when I find a good screen moment of them and display them. Of course you can just swish your head right to left, several times real fast and see them anytime. But why?

In normal viewing they are not an issue. Around here anyway :) .

Here is a better example of capturing rainbows on camera. Go about halfway down the page. He includes the same shot off of a CRT set for comparison.

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,1153392,00.asp

I am still laughing hysterically at the movie clip that he recorded in hopes of "reproducing" the rainbow effect! :D

It hasn't been mentioned here so far, and I believe it is extremely important to understand (if we are ever going to get to the bottom of the whole rainbow phenomenon) that you do NOT need to ...

1. shake your head violently
2. wiggle fingers in front of your eyes
3. blink your eyes rapidly
4. Throw your $2000 camera around recklessly

... to see rainbows on some DLP projectors.

Some people (some, IMO being a minority) can see them just with normal viewing of a movie in normal envorinments.
Me, for example, can see them on the LT240 without moving any part of my body at all. They just appear on the outside edges on any light-colored object.

replying to a much earlier post, of course, no one posting in this forum seeing rainbows, is NOT in the forum.

I was seeing them back in the Sharp everyone was pushing 2 years ago. They still bothered me in the new high buck Runco with the Mustang 2 chip this summer.

More to the point, the picture also bothered my wife. She did not know that she was "seeing rainbows." However, in less than 10 minutes of watching the movie, she was nauseaus. (She also dislikes IMAX theaters.) And this was in an immaculately setup room in the areas premier ht/audiophile shop.

I'll keep my CRT, but I still like a nice bright LCD. Maybe when they come out with the 12x 8 segment wheel.....

For those who want to see rainbows there are ways.

. . . And if you hold your breath and have someone squeeze you real hard you can pass out. The possibilities of how one can mistreat the human body are just as interesting as they are varied.
But I don't recommend any of them.

Most of manufactures do say whether it is X1 or X2. How can I find it out? More specifically I am looking at the BenQ Dx650 and BenQ PB8120 now because of my limited budget. Any recommendations are appreciated.

Thank you.


Ken

Here's a direct link to the rainbow clip:

ftp://ftp.extremetech.com/pub/extremetech/displays/SamsungHLN4365WRainbowClip.wmv

I don't think anyone is too upset about rainbows as such -- no big deal. However, they are symptomatic of a problem that affects a number of people: eyestrain/discomfort/headaches from trying to resolve/ignore the temporal dithering. It's a lot like the audio world where certain combinations of components are "fatiguing." You can't really put your finger on anything wrong with the sound but you find yourself choosing not to listen for extended periods.

If catapult is referring to the X1 in the preceding statement I have not found it to be fatiguing to watch our X1 for extended periods. Nor have any of the people who have watched films with us mentioned any problem.

LOTR 1 and 2 EE versions showed no eyestrain problems or fatigue. This sounds more like theoretical extrapolation than actual user experience. But a lot of that is going on here.

Try LCD's and DLP's - make sure you can return the product w/o penalty. Judge for yourself.

So far with the New X1 I've only seen rainbows when I was really tired and still watching. Then I started seeing them. I said, "Woah... what was that?" Then I saw it again and said, "Ahhh, that must be the mysterious rainbow I kept hearing about." So then I tried looking for them and didn't see them again for the rest of the time I was awake.

They don't bother me though when I do see them and they are very faint so far in my experience. No major screen effects. Just minor ones here and there. Easiest to see when something white flies across an all black screen such as during Adult Swim commerical breaks.

My advice is to watch your X1 when you're awake and to not focus on them if you do manage to see them.

- Bry

Oh yeah, don't tell anyone else about the rainbows and they may never see them. No one else over here that has watched the projector has seen them ever.

If catapult is referring to the X1 in the preceding statement Huh? I don't think I mentioned any particular PJ.This sounds more like theoretical extrapolation than actual user experience. But a lot of that is going on here. Apparently so, you are extrapolating my experience. As it happens, I get eyestrain watching DLP. I've tried several models for brief sessions. The more expensive ones in the $10K range were better but still unsatisfactory (to me.) FWIW, I'm also quite sensitive to computer monitors with low refresh rates. I could probably train myself to live with DLP with minimal discomfort, as others say they have done, but I don't care to bother with it. Shrug.

If catapult is referring to the X1 in the preceding statement. Huh? I don't think I mentioned any particular PJ. That's why I said "If".
This sounds more like theoretical extrapolation than actual user experience. But a lot of that is going on here. Apparently so, you are extrapolating my experience.
I stand corrected - you tried and it didn't work for you. One moves on.

Originally posted by catapult
I could probably train myself to live with DLP with minimal discomfort, as others say they have done, but I don't care to bother with it. Shrug.

Everybody is different. No training required with anyone I know. But if it causes discomfort, don't do it. Good move. LCD's work for a lot of people and many say they are great. I wouldn't know I've only lived with a DLP. It works really well. I like it. But when the next plateau in technology is reached I will check that out. (If the price is right. ;) )

I went to two different HT store in my area and both of them, some 15 miles apart, only had Knoll projector in their demo rooms. I spent a total of an hour viewing the Knoll HD110. It looked like an Infocus. It had a 4x color wheel, or as they quote it, "Unique six segment, 4-speed color wheel." I'm guessing 2x RGBRGB. The information sheet they gave me also said it was SVGA and rated at 1000 lumens with a contract of 600:1. It was projected onto a Firehawk.

Like I said I spent an hour with it and still saw rainbows. But unlike the X1, they were very minimal. I did get a slight headache at both stores but none of the nausea I felt with the X1.

This really is upsetting. I love the picture of the DLPs but until they speed up the color wheel or introduce a 12 segment wheel I’ll be hanging with the LCD PJs, which according to one of the salesmen is going away because it is "OLD" technology.:rolleyes:

For those of you whom rainbows are a non issue, congratulations, they throw a great image.

That movie that someone made trying to catch rainbows is priceless. I guess we can rule out jumping on trampolines whilst watching movies on our X1's. Why is that that most of us haven't even met someone who is bothered by rainbows? Oh, well. If you see 'em, don't buy it or take it back! Meanwhile we're enjoying our X1 to no end.

165 hours and rainbow free!
Merry Christmas,

JayW

Originally posted by jayw
Why is that that most of us haven't even met someone who is bothered by rainbows? I don't know. Could it be that "denial" is not just a river in Egypt?

Originally posted by smitty in reference to someone never having met anyone bothered by Rainbows
Could it be that "denial" is not just a river in Egypt?

Well, if the operative word is bothered then I am a member of that party too.

Are you bothered?

Originally posted by jayw
Why is that that most of us haven't even met someone who is bothered by rainbows?

How many people have you met that have/had/tried a dlp pj and you actually asked if they are bothered by rainbows?

I'm batting zero right now.

I ask those who visit my HT eventually whether or not they noticed rainbows. No one has yet.

I am obliged to step in. Anyone who remembers me will know my viewpoint about rainbows.

I still find it funny that people get overly defensive and deny the existence of the colour separation artifacts. There is a reason TI keep increasing colour wheel speed. They are not doing it just for the fun of it.

There is likely a lot of physiological issues involved, much like sensitivity to the 60 hz flicker on monitors.

I think it is much better that people know in advance about them, because unlike screendoor effect, it is not something you will notice instantly, and may never notice. But if you do, and you weren't looking for it, it could be a real problem.

For those of you who do not notice them, or are not bothered by them, I am envious of you because there are alot of great DLP's out there. However, do not instantly negate or discount the opinions of those who do see them, simply because you are not bothered by them. Clearly, there is a great deal of subjectivity here. You do not see a screen door sticky thread because it is something that, exists all the time, and is really a matter of your visual acquity at a given distance. Rainbows are not.

I do not advise going hunting for them. But sometimes, it is inevitable. The first time I saw a DLP, which was years ago, it was nearly instantaneous, likely due to the way I watch movies. I like the screen big. I like to have to move my eyes around the screen, as it makes me feel immersed. This type of viewing habit combined with single chip DLP's are not compatible.

Furthemore, for all those who say the "why haven't we met someone who is bothered by them?" , you must realize that you are dealing with such a small number of people in general that to ask that question seems odd. Unless your entire community is made up of home theatre enthusiasts, you won't know what to expect.

Furthermore, I am sure alot of people see it, but dont' know what it is, and so do not comment. Obviously, once you tell them what it is, it screws up any testing because they will then be on the lookout for it.

I agree David. People who are unaware of rainbows rarely see them and if they do, they seem to think nothing of them. That is my experience with people in my life. In life here on AVSforum there are more knowledgeable people who do look actively for R's. And if you look for them they will come.
I guess you are right in that: one cannot deny that they exist. Sit someone down in front of the THX optimizer test screen that uses a circle to test for AR and they will see rainbows!

I see the occasional Rainbow. It is nothing to me. It bothered me at first because I thought it was an sign of worse to come. I also move my eyes all around the screen. However, one thing I do like about the smaller Cinema image at home is that I can see most of the Film's image in one overall look. It's like looking at Art in a museum. Sometimes one looks at the details and sometimes one want to see the image as a Whole. IYKWIM
Well, Eventually the image won me over and I am not bothered by rainbows. Nor is anyone I know in my everyday life.

I do think there are those whose eye movements will exaggerate and exacerbate rainbows. But, they are the exception not the rule. I am sorry for them. But I am sure LCD technology has something for them.

Do not discount the experience of those who see rainbows but are not bothered by them. They are much less bothersome to me than my old RPTV's very slight misconvergences.

Hopefully the next advance in HT gear will address this rainbow problem some people have. I do notice that the preshow at our local Regal Cinema uses a large DLP. The only objection I have to it is that there is a slight yellowish tint to it. I haven't noticed any problem with the audiences reaction to it yet. Of course, it might a three chipper or very fast color wheel.

I really love my X1. And still have not heard negatives from my many guests. And show a lot of old B&W and everything with subtitles. And I see them but not a lot. Still, I may "upgrade" when a DLP with zero RB comes along. Why? This forum - I caught the "bug."

Now THAT'S funny!
That movie that someone made trying to catch rainbows is priceless. I guess we can rule out jumping on trampolines whilst watching movies on our X1's.

now THATS comedy!! :D

Another problem though is if you're having a seizure... Then you'll see rainbow galore... Or if you sneeze... Crap you might see them then.... Or if you fall down or something.... Man, I hope there's still time to cancel my X1 purchase!! :(

Damnit.. Had I known I would not have ordered... And does that mean that I'll see rainbows while watching my Sepultura concert DVD and doing my headbanging?! :eek: Someone plz tell me this isn't happening!!

Also can someone confirm that if I wave my arms in front of my face while watching a movie I'll see rainbows?! That would really suck... Who dosen't wave his arms in front of his face during his favourite movie?! :(

:p

I have an X1. Rainbows really bothered me at first. However, once I mounted my projector, the rainbows were really reduced. I guess it is because of the angle of the PJ hitting the HCCV screen.

I still see them every now and then but nothing like it used to be.

I personally am sickened by DLP color wheel artifacts to the point that I am physically unable to watch one for more than an hour. It is particularly annoying to sit in a boardroom with a DLP projected image... I have to close my eyes constantly to handle the strain. I wish I wasn't and would be glad to chuck my Z2 in favor of the superior DLP PQ.

I have to wonder why some have to poo-poo the notion that others cannot tolerate DLP images. As someone mentioned earlier, I guess some need to justify their purchases.

Someone else mentioned that the GooX1 removed the X1 rainbows. In my experience, the GooX1 minimizes the rainbows to a very tolerable level, but did not removed them completely. The biggest reason was the drop in brightness in the Goo.

Seeing a X1, GooX1 and LT260 back to back made me realize that rainbows are correlated with projector brightness. The LT260 is a rainbow fest with it's bright output. Even working hard to minimize rainbow visibility (keeping my head and eyes as still as possible )... they were still highly noticable while blinking (to me, that is).

As a result, it is possible that the increase in complaints about DLP rainbows is correlated to brighter DLP projectors being available. I could not readily see rainbows on a 5 year old Infocus SVGA projector that could not have been outputing more than 250 lumen.

I'd recommend to a newbie that they not do stupid things to try to see rainbows. If you don't see them while viewing normally, then be happy and buy a DLP. Otherwise, you are going to have to deal with the noticable negatives of LCD, specifically FPN and lower black levels. Either that or you will have to wait for LCOS to drop in price.

Originally posted by David Mendicino
I am obliged to step in. Anyone who remembers me will know my viewpoint about rainbows.

I still find it funny that people get overly defensive and deny the existence of the colour separation artifacts. There is a reason TI keep increasing colour wheel speed. They are not doing it just for the fun of it.

There is likely a lot of physiological issues involved, much like sensitivity to the 60 hz flicker on monitors.

I think it is much better that people know in advance about them, because unlike screendoor effect, it is not something you will notice instantly, and may never notice. But if you do, and you weren't looking for it, it could be a real problem.

For those of you who do not notice them, or are not bothered by them, I am envious of you because there are alot of great DLP's out there. However, do not instantly negate or discount the opinions of those who do see them, simply because you are not bothered by them. Clearly, there is a great deal of subjectivity here. You do not see a screen door sticky thread because it is something that, exists all the time, and is really a matter of your visual acquity at a given distance. Rainbows are not.

I do not advise going hunting for them. But sometimes, it is inevitable. The first time I saw a DLP, which was years ago, it was nearly instantaneous, likely due to the way I watch movies. I like the screen big. I like to have to move my eyes around the screen, as it makes me feel immersed. This type of viewing habit combined with single chip DLP's are not compatible.

Furthemore, for all those who say the "why haven't we met someone who is bothered by them?" , you must realize that you are dealing with such a small number of people in general that to ask that question seems odd. Unless your entire community is made up of home theatre enthusiasts, you won't know what to expect.

Furthermore, I am sure alot of people see it, but dont' know what it is, and so do not comment. Obviously, once you tell them what it is, it screws up any testing because they will then be on the lookout for it.

Great post David. I am one of the guys that actually went to Kysersoze's place and saw his LT240K in action. Unfortunately I saw raibows everywhere when watching Gladiator. The same for the X1 we tried. And I am sad I saw them. I would love to have a rainbow free DLP with such great CR on my basement, replacing my LCD. The funny thing is on Dinosaur for example I did not see rainbows at all. Also when I went to a store in Kanata and saw another DLP (I do not remember the brand but it was Italian I think and had a $15,000 price tag) I could not see any rainbows at all. As we know this is different from movie to movie and from projector to projector.
I do agree we cannot simply 'hide' the fact that DLPs do have rainbow issues. The same for LCDs screendoor. As techies that most of the time will form opinions on many other readers I feel obliged to let them know about all the issues each technology has. I always tell my friends that ask about my setup they must see/try each technology to see which one will be the right one for them. A PJ for me is like a tailor made suit. The one made for me will not fit you. A DLP may be the best PJ for someone but it is the most terrible thing for me, ruining my viewing experience and giving me real headaches (I may be over sensitive to rainbows, who knows).
And Mike (Kysersoze) I saw rainbows before I knew what they were. After coming to this forum years ago I learned why/where they were coming from, as I learned many other things about PJs.
Again, what I do think is we should let everyone know the PROs and CONs on all technologies, not hiding or making it not sound that bad anything. As I said, what is ok for some people may be the show stopper for others. That is why everyone should learn/be aware about all PJs strenghts/weaknesses. This is the only real way to help people that usually have no clue about PJs and what to expect from them.

Cheers,

Originally posted by JPinTO
I have to wonder why some have to poo-poo the notion that others cannot tolerate DLP images. As someone mentioned earlier, I guess some need to justify their purchases.
That's true. It is rude and intolerant to think that anyone who is different is wrong.
I'm not sure about the justification of purchase. I quess the normal human desire to have everyone approve of what we find valuable might come in play.

I think you are misunderstanding the point I made. It's not that R's aren't real, they are. But IMHO they are blown out of proportion. Many of us have shown our projectors to 20+ people with nobody complaining of rainbows. So are they real? Yes. Is it *likely* that they will ruin your viewing experience if you don't know to look for them? NO. Not very likely. I only said that the video of the guy MADLY and violently shaking his camera seemed to make the point--R's are rare and difficult to see for MOST people, but not all. Let's everyone mellow out here. :) I mean did you rainbow experiencers actually watch that video?

Originally posted by jayw
I think you are misunderstanding the point I made. It's not that R's aren't real, they are. But IMHO they are blown out of proportion. Many of us have shown our projectors to 20+ people with nobody complaining of rainbows. So are they real? Yes. Is it *likely* that they will ruin your viewing experience if you don't know to look for them? NO. Not very likely. I only said that the video of the guy MADLY and violently shaking his camera seemed to make the point--R's are rare and difficult to see for MOST people, but not all. Let's everyone mellow out here. :) I mean did you rainbow experiencers actually watch that video? I would surmise, which is another way of saying I have no scientific evidence but only anecdotal evidence, that, if you show a single-chip DLP projector to 20 people, that it would be a very rare occurrence that NONE of them could see rainbows after a significant time of exposure (i.e., more than 15-20 minutes.) Some might not know what they are when they see them. I did not at first. I thought it was a minor glitch on the DVD. It was only after I saw another two or three that my mind drifted back to the things I had read on this forum about "rainbows." I then concluded (correctly) that this is what I was seeing. Had I not previously read posts on this forum about the phenomenon, I would never have known what I was seeing. I think that some in our hypothetical group of 20 might see them if you merely pointed out what they were, but as David M. notes, this skews the test.

Also, I suspect some don't see rainbows until after a significant amount of exposure. I watched the single chip DLP I owned for about three hours + before I saw the first one, then I saw them a few times for the next hour of exposure, then I began to see them with increasing frequency. So casual viewers might also not see them, but might see them with more experience with the DLP in question.

I also believe that you are probably correct that "MOST" people will not see rainbows if the phenomenon is not pointed out to them -- if by the word "MOST" you mean more than 50% (and if we are talking about the casual viewer). But I disagree somewhat when you say rainbows are overblown. They are overblown if they don't bother you, or if you find them easy to live with. They are not overblown if they bother you. And while they do get a lot of "press" on this forum, this forum is populated by people who have spent or are looking to spend thousands of dollars to try to duplicate a movie experience in their home. For many of us, it is not "overblowing" an issue to point out the problem of "rainbows," anymore than it would be to tell people that if they buy a certain type of projector, there is a 10% chance (or whatever the right figure is) that every few minutes during the movie they will hear a high pitched noise that no one else will hear (this is an indication of how much rainbows bother me when I'm trying to enjoy a movie), I'd certainly like to know those odds, or at least know about the issue, before I plunk down my money. :)

Smitty,
I remember having this conversation, with you in line with my thoughts, a few years ago! You went from what, seleco, to a DILA, or something like that?

Two things I would say, and agree with what others have said.

For those who say it is blown out of proportion, you are speaking from your own viewpoint. To anyone who is bothered by them, it can be VERY proportional indeed.

Secondly, there is CLEARLY a link between brightness/contrast and rainbows.

I was at a store watching a Sim2 a year or so ago. It had a 4x or 5x colour wheel. When ambient light was on, in the background and sides of me, (not hitting the screen directly), I saw very few rainbows. I was watching Gladiator on an 80" screen.

However, when the guy turned off the lights completely, there they were, as bright and noticeable as ever. I am not certain if it is contrast, or brightness that is doing it, but I would warn everyone that if you are considering a DLP, make sure you test it in similar environments that you will be in your own home. My room is completely light controlled. It is a cave, and based on my experience, I know this would have an affect on rainbow visibility.

All in all, lets keep this simple. Those of you who own a DLP and don't see rainbows. You are fortunate. However, there is no need to claim that somethign is out of proportion, because it does not affect you, or yoru 20 friends. This thread is just to keep everyone informed about the phenomenon. Clearly, we dont' have one for screen door effect of FPN, or whatnot, because these are readily visible to everyone who has good eyesight. Rainbows, on the other hand, involve so much more than just your visual acquity.

I am certain that the thread creator had no intention to put anyone on the defensive, or make you justify your purchase. Indeed, if you don't see rainbows, you shouldn't need to justify anything in the first place.

Originally posted by David Mendicino
Smitty,
I remember having this conversation, with you in line with my thoughts, a few years ago! You went from what, seleco, to a DILA, or something like that?
I had the first generation Dwin DLP, and then I went to a Sanyo PLV-60 (too much screen door), and then to a DILA. I follow the threads and articles on the new DLP's very closely, though. It sounds like the new DLP's have better contrast and black levels than my DILA, but still have the rainbow issue, albeit a significantly reduced one. I am waiting to see if the rainbow issue is eventually eliminated or if the 3-chippers come in at a reasonable price.

Indeed. However, I think they may be an ironic trend, in that if the colour wheel stays at 5x, increases in brightness/contrast may actually make the rainbow worse. Hard to say, as no one ahs really tested, and it seems the higher contrast DLP's produced with low brightness, which may be what is causing the reduced rainbows.

Originally posted by smitty
I am waiting to see if the rainbow issue is eventually eliminated or if the 3-chippers come in at a reasonable price.

How many years has TI been producing DLP chips already? What's the hold up in producing 3-chip DLP?

I am from the sixties and back then, I spend half my fortune and brains to see these wonderful rainbows. Who could ever dream that one day they would come as a surprice with the glorieus pics of the magnificent X1. :cool:

The "none of my guests has complained" argument is bogus. Is anyone in the habit of going to someone's house and complaining about a minor headache? I think not -- we'd sound like girly-men. :D We just suck it up and think our sinuses are probably plugged or something. It would never occur to a video newbie that the screen could be causing his minor discomfort. Certainly it's nothing worth mentioning to the host who is so proud of his new toy.

Just got back from Christmas eve service. Interestingly enough the sermon was:

Are Rainbows a metaphorical message from God?

Or

Is humor an antidote to extremism?

Are Rainbows a metaphorical message from God?

Or

Is humor an antidote to extremism?

An acid trip or flash back from the 70's !

No, there really isn't rainbows its just a few percent who imagine them.
Kinda like when we think we see pixelization, SDE, dithering etc. because these things are not distracting like rainbows!!!!

Merry Christmas to All

Ross

Sorry if I seemed to make light of something that does distract some people. They aren't an issue for me but if their frequency were greater I'm sure they would become one.

It's the last hour of Christmas day so I say:
And To all a Good Night.

Mike

good night Mike ( even though on the east coast it is tomorrow :) )

Doesn't everyone see rainbows watching that WMV file in page 4?

I have seen a Dt200 at a local retailer. I didn't see R's watching Matrix Reloaded, but I do think I had a slight headache after 15 minutes. Is that symptomatic of a R problem? Does that go away after you've watched your DLP projector for a while? I am trying to convince myself that a DLP would be ok, am I fooling myself?

Try the free Infocus 10 day inhome trial and see. After 400+ hours no one who has viewed our X1 HT has had a problem. Seeing is believing, and for us, enjoying.

Good luck

Originally posted by Cyrano


Are Rainbows a metaphorical message from God?

Or

Is humor an antidote to extremism?

Laughing my bum off here ...
That sounds too much like the ending to an old Rocky and Bullwinkle cartoon!!! I can even hear the voice ...

"Next weeks episode is .... Are Rainbows a metaphorical message from God? -OR- Is humor an antidote to extremism? ... stay tuned to find out!"

Cyrano,

No apologies needed, but rainbows for me are an issue( even though I wish it wasn't). I once owned a DLP but couldn't handle the rainbows any more.

We all perceive things different that was my point.
You are lucky if you don't see them. We are all sensitive or perceive video differently. Some people see dithering, over saturated colors, etc, some don't, just like rainbows. But when you blink your eyes and see stretches of color all over the screen, its a problem.

It would be nice if we did not have these issues at all.

Ross

A few years ago, my cousin bought a big rear projection. As I was watching it I noticed a green flash whenever I turned away or moved my eyes quickly away to talk to someone. I turned to the guy next to me and asked him if he saw the same. He told me it was the rum. So a few years later I bought good rear projection and same thing. I am in the market for a front projector but have no experience with them. Is there a good chance I am suseptable to the dlp rainbows. I don't have any nearby to test. Thanks.

Sid

I see rainbows all the time with my RPTV. I also see them more often on DLP tv's, so if you are like me you will probably also see them on a DLP front projector.

AHHHHH!!! I saw rainbows! I owned an X1 for 4 months never saw one rainbow, then I hooked up my new Dell 3200 to a progressive scan DVD and boom! They were everywhere. Then I hooked up my HTPC to the Dell, same DVD no rainbows, very odd.

Something else that is strange, after nobody had mentioned they had seen anything wrong with the picture, I asked if anybody had seen any werid raindowish moving artifacts. One of my friends said yeah, and I was glad that is was the projector and not him going crazy. I then adjusted the gamma settings, turned down the green and turned up the blue and red and no more rainbows. These rainbows are a very interesting creature.

Chris

I see rainbows on some CRT's as well. I belive it is either due to the green decaying at a slower rate than blue and red, or slight misconvergence.

Im not sure David,
I saw rainbows on my panasonic rptv since day one, and a relative just bought a 51'' toshiba and I saw them there as well. As with dlp it is usually on dark screens with thin bright areas, and I see them as I look left to right.

The only other weird phenomenon I have seen is in lord of the rings the two towers. In the scene where the riders of rohan kill the orcs from horseback, I see flashing red all over the place. Its not rainbows but I dont know what it is.

The newness doesn't mean anything.
It is because it seems the green phosphor's on CRT's don't turn dim as fast as the other two colours. Basically, so when you move your eyes, you still see the bit of green. HOw it appears to you, however, can vary. I do see it on the same scenes as with DLPs, it is with high contrast areas.
The red flashing, now that I can't answer, but I don't doubt you see them.

I just got my Infocus Screenplay 4800 (which I guess is the X1) and so far I have been thrilled with it. I was really worried about all the fuss about the rainbow effects and everything. When I finally noticed it I had to start laughing. Was this the big disaster deal breaking flaw that would make me hate a DLP pj? Not.

Man this rainbow effect is really blown out of proportion. For the most part you cant even detect them unless you shake your head back and forth like a lunatic. The only time I can really notice them is when the scene is really dark and a thin white type object is darting around. I noticed them in the fight sequence in "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" when Max fights Blaster in the dome. The rainbow effect was quite noticeable there and it sort of sucked. However, that has been the only time that I was bothered by the effect. For the other 95% of the time I was in video heaven. My children are trying to dominate my viewing pleasure with "Finding Nemo" and "Monsters, Inc". Trust me, pop in good old "Shrek" into the SP4800 /X1 and you will be too busy picking your gawking jaw up off the floor to look for any flaws or artifacts.

The folks here who are going nuts over rainbows need to simply plop $40,000 on a high end CRT projector because that is the only way you will be happy. If they buy a DLP they see rainbows, if they buy a LCD they see screendoors.

The fact is I just bought a Movie theatre experience for $1000. If you are one of those people like myself who were nervous about all the stuff you read on DLP rainbow effects fear not. This was the best $1000 dollars I ever spent.

As an avid PC gamer I was hesitant on the native 800 X 600 display because I didnt know how good it would look upscaling my video games to 1024 X768. The Screenplay4800 looks and performs amazingly at 1024 X 768 infact I think it looks better than it does in 800 mode. I dont know if this has anything to do with the PJ operating at 75Hz when in 1024 or not. Simply incredible. 10 ft of gaming goodness via high res PC cannot be beaten by any console games. Battlefield 1942 on a 10 ft screen will give you vertigo. I feel like I am on a ride at Universal Studios. I could go on and on but I really wanted to address the whole rainblow issue. Yes, I can see them occasionaly in certain scenes but man the other 95% of the time I am just so overwhelmed in video movie gaming goodness to even notice or care. Would I spend an extra $1500 to get a better PJ with a faster 6X color wheel to reduce rainbows? Helllllzzzzz no! You must be outside your mind.

If I had to pick on something to knock on my pj it would be that it isnt bright enough for daytime viewing ( I have lots of windows). Then again, I have it projecting on a light green wall.

Originally posted by IThanos
I just got my Infocus Screenplay 4800 (which I guess is the X1) and so far I have been thrilled with it. I was really worried about all the fuss about the rainbow effects and everything. When I finally noticed it I had to start laughing. Was this the big disaster deal breaking flaw that would make me hate a DLP pj? Not.

Man this rainbow effect is really blown out of proportion. For the most part you cant even detect them unless you shake your head back and forth like a lunatic.
. . . .

Would I spend an extra $1500 to get a better PJ with a faster 6X color wheel to reduce rainbows? Helllllzzzzz no! You must be outside your mind.
. . . .

Thanks for setting this issue straight. Some people think that this issue is a matter of perception, preferences, and value judgments, when it is not. There is only one right answer and you in your infinite wisdom have found it. Thank you for sharing it and saving us and the world from ignorance. :p

Originally posted by IThanos
Man this rainbow effect is really blown out of proportion.
Hey IThanos: Trust me on this one....
I have one word for you: Duck!!!
:p

Originally posted by IThanos
...

Man this rainbow effect is really blown out of proportion. For the most part you cant even detect them unless you shake your head back and forth like a lunatic.



Just a quick typo correction ...

Man this rainbow effect is really blown out of proportion. For the most part I cant even detect them unless I shake my head back and forth like a lunatic.

The rest of your post looks perfect. Well said.
There are people out there that see rainbows during regular natural DLP viewing. There are people out there that get headaches of varying intensity while viewing DLP. There are people out there who become nausious/vomit while viewing DLP.
If there is something blown out of proportion, it is probably the quantity of people who suffer these symptoms. But they do exist ... if even in a highly minority.

So, those ARE rainbows I'm seeing on my 55" RPTV as well. I see them mostly on things like pin striped suits on the TV and it's so infrequent, it's not a big deal.

I saw rainbows all over the place with Matrix Reloaded on the X1 but not at all on my RPTV. Is it due to size of the projected image or just the technology itself?

Originally posted by Ericbres
If there is something blown out of proportion, it is probably the quantity of people who suffer these symptoms. I'm not sure there is really any basis for this statement, at least it if is confined to the rainbow issue. I have not seen anything but very unreliable anecdotal evidence about what percentage of the population could see them under the appropriate conditions or what percentage will be bothered by them.

Moreover, limiting the issue to rainbows for the moment, you rarely see anyone who sees rainbows putting forth any numbers on what percentage actually see rainbows. They generally speak in terms of their OWN experience with the problem, and their comments tend to be factual in nature. On the other hand, some who own DLP projectors and don't see rainbows or claim not to be bothered by them tend to address this issue with comments like "20 people have viewed my projector and nobody has seen rainbows," or like to make other conclusory statments about how the whole issue is "overblown." This suggests to me that there is tendency on the part of those who don't see rainbows to be defensive on this issue, as if the fact that a certain type of projector they own exhibits certain artifacts is a critical comment on whether they made the right projector choice for them. (It is not.)

In short, I would submit that whether rainbows and other DLP artifacts bother you and to what extent is an individual matter of perception and judgment. Furthermore, it appears to me that we really don't know how many people (in terms of percentages) will see them under various conditions or to what extent they will bother people. Finally, the fact that they bother some to the point where they do not wish to own a DLP does NOT mean (a) there is something wrong with you if you don't see them or are not bothered by them, (b) DLP projectors are not as good as other projectors, (c) you are a fool for owning a DLP projetor. :)

IThanos, man do I wish I perceived the picture from the X1 like you do. Watching the screen in normal viewing mode, it was totally unwatchable for me. I watched Matrix Reloaded which gave me a headache and I had to stop it in 20 minutes. I tried Braveheart and it was bad too, just not as bad as Matrix Reloaded.

My wife had no problem at all viewing the X1. I'm just glad there are alternatives in this price range. Watching a A10X was wonderful for me, as well as an HS20, albeit much pricier.

I wouldn't mind seeing an HT1000 to see if the rainbows bother me with that one but on the $3500+ forum, people talk about rainbows with higher end DLPs as well.

SDE wasn't an issue on any of the PJs I watched on a white wall in my home. I was sitting 15-16' back and had to get up to around 4-5' to see SDE. The X1 has this as well as the LCDs.

After my wife and I watched these PJs, we'd definitely recommend people to see the PJ they're interested in before purchasing. Also glad to have this forum to educate us because if the X1 was the only PJ I tried out, I would have ruled out all PJs, thinking they're not ready for prime time. Wouldn't have know what to call the rainbows and thought all PJs must be this way. I'm glad this isn't the case, as I'm still hunting for the right one for me.

"Man this rainbow effect is really blown out of proportion. For the most part you cant even detect them unless you shake your head back and forth like a lunatic. "

Hahahaha...I can't help but laugh at this statement. You yourself just answered why it is such a big deal for some people. Some of us do not have to shake our heads like a lunatic. Even watching "normally", we see them. Take what you see, make it happen about every fewseconds to a minute in any scene with contrasting edges, and you can then understand how it is NOT at all out of proportion.

The reason I think we should stop this discussion is because of the subjective nature of the perception of rainbows, and the immature and ignorant statements like the above quoted one, which really lead to no helpful answer at all.

I will stand by my nearly constant message. You may argue there are symantics involved, but they are not.

I say rainbows COULD bother you to the point of being a problem. They may not, but they could.

Statements like the above suggest they WON'T bother you at all.

Given the subjectivity of the issue, I think my version is a more useful comment.

Furthermore, I think I would go so far as to suggest that those who do not find a problem with rainbows do not post about it in this thread. We can assume, in general, most people aren't bothered by them. I think it is important to find people who are, to varying degrees, as THEY are the ones potential buyers will wan't to hear from.

It's like buying a car, with resepct to reliability. Sure, knowing that there are alot of people without problems is a good thing. But I mainly want to hear about the negative aspects with respect to reliability, so I know what to expect. A million people saying they have no problems doesn't help when you are the one of the thousand who has a problem. I know when I buy a honda or toyota, there shoudl be no real issues, but there are occasional issues that a number of people experience, and I want to be prepared for that if I bought one of their cars.

I know this may seem harsh, but for years now I have hear over and over those who keep saying "it is blown out of proportion, it is not a problem, etc..etc.." and then I see users posting how they bought a DLP and are displeased because they are able to perceive rainbows. The joke is, most of us probably would be MUCH HAPPIER if we did not seem them, as there are alot of really cheap, but good PQ DLP projectors out there. Hopefully, this will dispell the feelings by some DLP owners to get defensive about their products, as if those of us who say we see rainbows are in some way diminishing their enjoyment of their product.

It is odd. I mean, I expect most of us have enough reason and rationality to address this issue in a meaningful way for future projector purchasers. And I will state again and again, there IS A REASON why Texas Instraments kept increasing the colour wheel speed. It wasn't for fun. It likely cost them money, and they did it to address the very issue people are claiming is being blown out of proportion.

We don't see such strange arguements about screendoor, or lack of blacks on certain projectors. I mean, we all know the screen door is their, whether you see it or not. The pixels are not 100% fill factor. Furthermore, we know that no digital projector can produce complete blackness. These are subjective things as well. Some people say they see screen door, others say they don't. Yet, we do not have the majority of LCD owners claiming that those who say SDE is a problem for them are blowing the issue out of proportion. Or that those who claim the black levels are not good enough are blowing it out of proportion. So why do we have such discussion with colour separation artifacts? (Yes, it has a technical name too, which further implies that it is not some ludicrous exageration by a few people, but something that is recognized as an issue inherent in the deisgn of single chip DLP's).

Be warned as well, ambient lighting and source material can have a drastic effect on the perception of rainbows. If you are considering a single chip DLP, and are concerened about your perception of them, keep this in mind.

P.S CRT rainbows: This effect is NOT what rainbows on a DLP look like, as it is usally only a green/yellow colour you see. DLP rainbows, you see several colours, and sometimes they appear on the periphery of the screen image, and not just within the image.

Well for some it is terrible I am sorry to see. I haven't met anyone for whom it is but I'm sure I will judging by the size of the argument.

For me it is much ado about nothing - okay, almost nothing. I haven't seen one in a couple of movies now but I will see some eventually. I saw 6 in The HULK. A couple because I was trying to keep count, probably. But they were a split second event in a very small spot on a very large screen. I really am sorry it is something that plagues some people.

Are there people out there who have found that rainbows are not a negative thing after watching a movie and forgetting about the "curse"? I am NOT making light of this phenomenon. It just has so little effect on me or anyone I know (in my everyday life) that I wish everyone could see the beauty w/o the sporadic ugly.

Some technological answer will arise, I'm sure.

I guess you've convinced me to stop posting. But I'll take one last shot at trying to explain the subtelty of this. We non-R people are NOT SAYING that for those who suffer ill effects from R's it is overblown. For some of you it seems to be very bad indeed. We were just saying that the NUMBER OF R-sufferers is overblown. Yes, I think it actually is pretty significant that many of us have had 20-50 people sit down, watch a movie without getting headaches, vomiting etc., and then come back to watch another movie later. Yes, it's not a scientific poll. But, if the numbers of sufferers were anywhere approaching 10% let alone the 30% I have heard sometimes claimed, then we should have found at least some folks who see R's. I don't need to justify my purchase at all. I have only urged folks to not rule out DLPs because of fears of R's. I'm going to go out and get flamed again, but the number of R-sensitive people is a very small percentage. For those that suffer, it can be really bad. But if you are in the market for a projector check it out for yourself. The more people that buy X1's the cheaper bulbs will get. ;)

Before I go though, isn't it equally pointless for all the pro-R people to post "Yeah I see them and they're really bad." as the non-R people to write "I don't see them and my guests don't see them."? After the gazillionth post I guess there really isn't much more that could be said on the subject.

JayW

Good stuff.

The only issue is, I don't recall an arguement that there were large number of people who see colour separation artifacts. I am not saying there are a lot of people who see it. On the contrary, it probably is very little, or at least a little amount who see them AND are bothered by them to the point that the projector they own is not useful.

As for your last point, I thought I had appropriately predicted and addressed it with my car reliability analogy.

Lets say only one percent of people actually see rainbows to the point of being distracting (which is obviously not the case, see my arguement about TI changing the colour wheel speed). As a purchaser of the product, I would very much like to know any potential negatives, even if it is a slim chance, because I may very well be within that one percent. And 2000+ dollars later, it is not something I want to learn about after the fact. The same would go for side effects of a drug, or risks in a medical procedure. It's all the same really. We know that most do not see it. And 99 percent of the people claiming they do not see rainbows does not help that 1 percent who does in any way.

Hopefully, that clarifies my viewpoint a bit. If the matter was really a one percent thing, I dont' think you would be having threads like this. It is clearly more than one percent. Furthermore, it seems that people do see them, but aren't bothered by them, or do not see them frequently.

"I have only urged folks to not rule out DLPs because of fears of R's"

This is a great point, as people may not be bothered by them, and will miss out on a great projector if they don't even bother looking at them. What I warn is that even if you don't see them initially, you might very well see them at home, on different material, in a different environment. It is this vagueness about colour separation artifact that makes it such a difficult issue to address. That, and the fact that tow people watching the same movie in the same place can have two totally different perceptions of rainbows.

It is truely subjective. My point about one person saying they don't see them does not really help relates to this fact. We know most don't. It is those who do that we are looking for, so we know that a particular projector has not eliminated the issue. All it takes is one person to see them to put everyone else on notice that the issue may be a problem for you, and that is valuable information. Much more so than people saying they, personally, do not see them, because this is the expected outcome anyways.

For those with the X1, I have to say that the Hoya ND2 filter does wonders, at least for me. I was seriously concerned when I saw the rainbows right from the start ( I just didn't want to give back the machine) and was even considering the Z2 but... with the filter the contrast is even better and the rainbows have all but disappeared.

Best $30 I've spent. I LOVE this projector!

Originally posted by jayw
Yes, I think it actually is pretty significant that many of us have had 20-50 people sit down, watch a movie without getting headaches, vomiting etc., and then come back to watch another movie later. Yes, it's not a scientific poll. But, if the numbers of sufferers were anywhere approaching 10% let alone the 30% I have heard sometimes claimed, then we should have found at least some folks who see R's.
Again, for the reasons discussed above, and limiting the issue to rainbows and putting aside vomiting for a moment, the fact that 20 - 50 people who are guests in your home don't volunteer that they saw some type of artifact on your projector (which they probably have not seen before and are not able to identify in any event) means doodly squat, in terms of the percentage of the population that might be able to see them. Many people own dogs. Sometimes houses with dogs have a certain "dog" smell to them. Yet it is a rare occurrence that someone who comes into a house who smells the dog will be so rude as to say to you: "Your house smells." If the dog owner were to ask a close friend if the house had such a smell, however, they might get a different answer.

Moreover, others have had contrary experiences that might suggest the numbers are high. When I first saw rainbows and was not sure if I was seeing something that others could not see, I asked my 10 of my neighbors and friends to come over to my house and I asked them if they could see what I saw and everyone but one could see rainbows without moving their head, etc., in high contast scenes (such as the scene in Gladiator with the candlelit background). Should I conclude from this that ninety percent of the population can see rainbows?

I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that if you take 20 people at random and play a high contrast scene on a single chip DLP with the slower color wheel, there is no way the result will be that none can see see rainbows once they know what the phenomenon is. I suspect the number will be closer to 50% or more. That doesn't mean that they will find the rainbows at all bothersome. And it doesn't mean they would have commented on the phenomenon if they did not know what to look for. The problem is that, once you know what to look for, or even if you don't and you eventually see them as you use the projector over a period of time, you might see them, and see them regularly, and find them bothersome. This is why it is best to have several hours with your projector before you are committed finally to the purchasing decision.

Originally posted by smitty
Yet it is a rare occurrence that someone who comes into a house who smells the dog will be so rude as to say to you: "Your house smells." If the dog owner were to ask a close friend if the house had such a smell, however, they might get a different answer.

True. But if you pay attention to a person's expression and other "tells" you'll know if others smell your stinky dog. (And one probably knows if one has a stinky dog anyway ;) )

When I first saw rainbows and was not sure if I was seeing something that others could not see, I asked my 10 of my neighbors and friends to come over to my house and I asked them if they could see what I saw and everyone but one could see rainbows without moving their head, etc., in high contast scenes (such as the scene in Gladiator with the candlelit background). Should I conclude from this that ninety percent of the population can see rainbows?

You might conclude that you're a mighty persuasive fellow, or that your neighbors didn't want to be rude and disagree with you. (your argument turned on itself)
I see a few rainbows in that shot as well. It doesn't matter to me. No harm - no foul. (I know - IMHO)

I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that if you take 20 people at random and play a high contrast scene on a single chip DLP with the slower color wheel, there is no way the result will be that none can see see rainbows once they know what the phenomenon is.
Once they've been told what to look for they will see them.
I suspect the number will be closer to 50% or more. That doesn't mean that they will find the rainbows at all bothersome. And it doesn't mean they would have commented on the phenomenon if they did not know what to look for. The problem is that, once you know what to look for, or even if you don't and you eventually see them as you use the projector over a period of time, you might see them, and see them regularly, and find them bothersome.
The opposite has been my experience. When I see them now they are so fleeting and rare as to be nothing. At first I saw them mostly because I looked for them.
This is why it is best to have several hours with your projector before you are committed finally to the purchasing decision.

I agree. Always audition a PJ for at least a week in your own home before buying one. It is possible to do so if one wants to badly enough. Someone has a return policy that will allow this. LCD, DLP, LCoS, CRT: your eyes - your choice. Your friends and neighbors will be wowed - have no fear. And don't allow anyone here to plant a fear, but caveats are always helpful. Just notice the vitriol and the over enthusiasm and somewhere in the middle is where the truth probably lies.

That being said: 500 hours and counting and we are loving our X1 HT.

Mike

:)

The reason the ND filters worked is because you reduced the brightness of the projector.

If you turned on alot of ambient lighting, and with some hitting the screen, you would likely have the same result.

That is what happened when I watched a Sim2. At first, no rainbows, then the sales person turned off the lights, and there the rainbows were.

Brightness has alot to do with rainbows.

Can anyone, 9mileskid or David M., comment further on the ND2 filter helping with rainbows? What are the cons?

The con is your image is not as bright as it would be. ND filter reduces the light output of the projector, if I remember correctly.

It apperas that rainbows are most visible when there are lines of high contrast (i.e. bright object beside a dark object), such as credit rolls, flame in the night, etc..etc. Therefore, the brighter you make the light side, the more apparent the contrast likely becomes, and so the rainbows are more prevelant.

Thanks, David. But, alas, more questions:
Roughly how much would the filter reduce the light output?
Does the ND filter reduce contrast significantly, in a bad way?
And are you saying that, in general, reducing the overall brightness would help reduce rainbows, whether it's by filter or by ambient light? What about adjusting the brightness settings?

I do not know completely, but yes, I would venture a reasonable assumption that doing anything that causes you to perceive an image that is less bright (less intense), then what it was before would likely result in you seeing less rainbows.

ND filters come in varying numbers, and can reduce brightness by a little, or alot. I do not know enough about ND filters and their use to give you any type of advice I would feel confident in. However, oddly, I believe people are using ND filters to increase contrast, but that may be only with regard to colour specific, and not ND filters.

You will have to do more research with respect to filters. I do not know the total effect of what they will do to your perception of rainbows, unfortunately. It is just to subjective to say for sure. Can I assume that you are seeing rainbows on your current PJ to the point that they are becoming bothersome?

Thanks, David. I will research some more.
No PJ yet. Saw slight rainbows on someone else's. And we watch movies with numerous friends, so I had ruled out low-end DLP because I (and especially my wife) didn't want to risk it being a problem. Then I saw 9mileskid's post about having serious rainbow issues, and then resolving them with a Hoya ND2. Wow. I did a couple of searches to try to find out if this had been mentioned before and came up empty.

Brightness has nothing to do with rainbows. People who are susceptible will problem be more susceptible as lights are turned down because the picture is more intense and focus is more directed. The brightness factor is incidental to everyone else.

Again, for the reasons discussed above, and limiting the issue to rainbows and putting aside vomiting for a moment, the fact that 20 - 50 people who are guests in your home don't volunteer that they saw some type of artifact on your projector (which they probably have not seen before and are not able to identify in any event) means doodly squat,

Ridiculous.
If you see them, you see them. if they make you sick, they make you sick. All rainbow sufferers have reported this. Now guests don't know what they are seeing and don't talk about it at all??? Absolutely preposterous! I have specifically asked guests after watching and explained to them what some people have seen and no one sees any of this nor leaves my house looking for a vomit bag.
The other thing that is never addressed is how many rainbow watchers STOP seeing rainbows after a few viewings. ANYONE that is new to an X1 or a projector is going to spend more time darting their eyes around the screen admiring the picture. Once you settle in and just WATCH a movie it MIGHT not be an issue but most of the people who ran from the screen screaming will never find that out.

happy new year:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Dean Martin
ANYONE that is new to an X1 or a projector is going to spend more time darting their eyes around the screen admiring the picture. Once you settle in and just WATCH a movie it MIGHT not be an issue but most of the people who ran from the screen screaming will never find that out.

happy new year:rolleyes:

Well said, Dean.
I think there are many who are missing out who needn't.
Happy New Year All!

"Brightness has nothing to do with rainbows. People who are susceptible will problem be more susceptible as lights are turned down because the picture is more intense and focus is more directed. The brightness factor is incidental to everyone else."

Okay Dean, when you speak of intensity, does that not refer specifically to brightness? This is where I am getting confused with your statement. And I would make a a big assumption that brightness is a factor when it comes to rainbows. How else do you explain the comment that ND filters reduced rainbows? The bigger the difference between the bright and dark contrast line that causes you to see rainbows, the more likely you can see them. And what is this about focus? What focus are you talking about? Are you suggesting that when the lights are on, I am not focusing on the screen?

jimnc:

Do note, that because this is subjective, what worked for someone else may not work for you. Just keep this in mind.

Originally posted by Cyrano

Always[/i] audition a PJ for at least a week in your own home before buying one. It is possible to do so if one wants to badly enough.
Mike

:) [/B]

Mike:

You sure can't just go off making statement like that.

Not everyone lives near a big city. Not everyone lives in America either!

You can NOT, to my knowledge at least, audition a PJ in your home for a week from any dealer hereabouts.

In fact, there are PRECIOUS few places where you can even SEE a PJ in action at all!

That said, I DID manage to see an X1, and well set up too, at a local dealer. I WAS impressed. I did NOT see rainbows although I came close to giving myself a whiplash injury trying to do so!

I asked about seeing a Z2. He was prepared to bring one in for me but that "would cost you money." Read my drift here! The dealer was NOT going to get a Z2 in the store for me to see without my paying for the privilege! He sure in Hades was not about to order me one, allow me to take it home for a week and try it out at no cost!

THIS is reality for many people in the marketplace.

While I was very favourably impressed with the X1, I had a few more shekels lying about and figured the higher res of the Z2 might be a good idea.

So I bought one, sight unseen from a large NYC photo discounter.

And, I am happy.

Rainbows? Well, I dunn'o. I sure did not choose the Z2 over the X1 on that basis. I can not help but figure that there are just folks that like to find fault. Maybe rainbows ARE a problem. They sure weren't for me when I auditioned the X1.

And I wonder . . .

David,

What I am saying is that Brightness has nothing to do with rainbows in GENERAL. It may increase or decrease how well they are seen for the people that are susceptible to them but brightness is not the cause nor solution to the problem. It may work for some people which is ok but your statement makes it appear as though there is a direct relationship with brightness and rainbows when in truth it is the human eye and the technology of this particular form of dlp that is responsilbe for rainbows, not brightness.

Mike:

You sure can't just go off making statement like that.

Not everyone lives near a big city. Not everyone lives in America either!

You can NOT, to my knowledge at least, audition a PJ in your home for a week from any dealer hereabouts.

Why can't he? It's not anyone's fault if someone wants to buy something and you live in some remote area. The point is, you should demo it before accepting the fact you may see a rainbow. In fact that is the point to this entire thread. Whether you live on the moon or in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, demo-ing a PJ is good advice.
If I told you to test drive a car would you yell at me because there are no dealerships in your area?

Dean,
Basically, I was wondering if a brightness adjustment could lesson the rainbow problem. The poster that caught my attention stated that he initially had a problem with rainbows that went away after installing a Hoya ND2 filter. Even if it isn't a total remedy, if it can lesson the problem for someone for $30, it's interesting to me.
But my questions to you are(and anyone else):
Why would the ND2 filter help with rainbows?
Any idea what it is about the human eye this is responsible for rainbows?

Well Dawziecat,

In 1996 my wife and I moved from a mountain community (40 miles from Bakersfield) to a very rural area in the Olympic peninsula. Our nearest store was 30 miles away when we first got here (still is). Our nearest Electronics store was in Tacoma, about 70 miles away. Now there is a Best Buy in that city which is 30 miles away . Before that we went to Tacoma for any major purchase.
Since we live beyond any delivery service we had to buy, load and move all of our appliances into the house we built ( one nail at a time - until 6 months later the house was done) on 5 acres. Back in '96 our nearest neighbor was 2 miles away. Now we have other neighbors on adjacent 5 acre lots.

When I bought the X1 from BB in July I had the store manager sign the receipt stating that there would be no restocking fee in the event of a return within 14 days.

BTW, I was only speaking for America as it is all I know. (And of course I only know a small portion of it - mostly rural in the last decade or so.)

But I am about as rural as one can get. Find the Toandos (or Coyle) Peninsula on a map of the Puget sound (between the Kitsap and Olympic Peninsula) area. It looks like Italy. Right in the middle of this large land mass is where My wife and I live.

Of course one has to narrow down one's choices by research and driving great distances to see for oneself. But I still repeat:
Always audition a PJ for at least a week in your own home before buying (plunking down money you can't get back) one. It is possible to do so if one wants to badly enough. I do concede that there may be some PJ's you won't be able to do this with. Find a hungry dealer. A well known "Cost Conscious" warehouse store now has several PJ's available and their return policy is very liberal. And they are online and in Canada. Also, X1 has a free 10 day in-home demo deal. Where there's a will . . .

I sought out all the PJ's I could find in Seattle and Tacoma and Silverdale. Infocus DLP's looked the best to me so I got one.

But I do see some people on this forum who hopscotch around buying different PJ's - being disappointed in some aspect of it and getting another PJ within a couple of weeks. I think all PJ's have their pluses and minuses. One just works with what one has (at least for a while) and accentuates the positives and eliminates the negatives - as much as possible.

That is affirmative.
:)
Mike

Originally posted by Dean Martin
Now guests don't know what they are seeing and don't talk about it at all??? Absolutely preposterous! I have specifically asked guests after watching and explained to them what some people have seen and no one sees any of this nor leaves my house looking for a vomit bag.

Yet many others on this forum have reported that once they identified rainbows for some of their guests, they saw them. I think some weight has to be given to the fact that many viewers might not be as sophisticated as people on this forum and might not know what they are seeing (or are not seeing) when they first view a projector.
Originally posted by Dean Martin
The other thing that is never addressed is how many rainbow watchers STOP seeing rainbows after a few viewings. ANYONE that is new to an X1 or a projector is going to spend more time darting their eyes around the screen admiring the picture. Once you settle in and just WATCH a movie it MIGHT not be an issue but most of the people who ran from the screen screaming will never find that out.
Yes people can get used to rainbows. But many also find it bothersome and continue to see them. And I don't think it is fair to suggest that people who see rainbows see them once and then "they run from the screen screaming. " This could be interpreted to be belittling to some people.

"Dean,
Basically, I was wondering if a brightness adjustment could lesson the rainbow problem. The poster that caught my attention stated that he initially had a problem with rainbows that went away after installing a Hoya ND2 filter. Even if it isn't a total remedy, if it can lesson the problem for someone for $30, it's interesting to me.
But my questions to you are(and anyone else):
Why would the ND2 filter help with rainbows?
Any idea what it is about the human eye this is responsible for rainbows?"

The reason ND filters would help is for the exact reason I said. Dean has misinterpreted what I said. I did not say rainbows are caused by brightness. No, they are casued by a spinning colour wheel flashing multiple coloured images at a rate which may not be fast enough to be perceived as one full colour image. What I did say was that brightness has an effect on the perceptability of rainbows. THAT is why the ND filters helped that poster. You will also notice that I said rainbows are subjective, and what may have worked for someone may not work for another. That is why I warned you, by saying:

" I do not know the total effect of what they will do to your perception of rainbows, unfortunately. It is just to subjective to say for sure"

I hope this quote, which must've been missed, negates this comment:
"It may work for some people which is ok but your statement makes it appear as though there is a direct relationship with brightness and rainbows when in truth it is the human eye and the technology of this particular form of dlp that is responsilbe for rainbows, not brightness."

See my above comments with respect to what I said about brightness. However,to say brightness has no effect on perception of rainbows would, in my honest, and humble opinion, be incorrect. In fact, the ND filter example is a perfect example of why this is so. There IS a relationship between brightness and rainbow perception. Not everyone may be as affected by differences in brightness, but surely it is a factor.

I haven't tried an ND filter yet. I do notice that I always go looking for my clear glasses when I'm going to watch our X1 as I want the colors and brightness to be exactly as I set them. Sounds a bit fussy, but it really does look good. And better is always better.

But I was wondering if anyone has tried a Polarizer filter? I know it has helped me in Still and Video photography. Of course, since its effect is somewhat like what a red filter does to B/W photography, perhaps it would tend to increase contrast.
But maybe the polarizing effect would be somewhat neutralizing to R's.

Give ME a break Smitty.

I NEVER insinuated anyone was lying and I don't appreciate you making that accusation now. My experience with MY guests is my own, or are you insinuationg I am the one that's lying?:rolleyes:

As far as lack of maturity? Look at your entire post & the way you responded to me. Learn some posting manners and attack the argument and not the members of this forum otherwie you can go post at a board that tolerates that sort of attack. You may not like my comment but I attacked no one personally as you just did.
I acknowledge the existence of rainbows. I don't expect everyone to find my comments funny but it was meant to be. Not the way you said it to be.
I just don't want people to not even try DLP because they are mislead by uneducated posts as I almost was.
You can make remarks about the argument but as far as my posting history, most of my time is spent trying to HELP people on this forum. Maybe I shouldn't waste my time...

David,

I understand what you meant, I was just being clear for the reader who may have seen that quote and thought brightness was directly related to the problem. It was meant to be more informative than anything.

Oh and another thing about me or other people LYING. My remark, which you took out of context, was a direct response to someone saying that guests were purposely not admitting to seeing rainblows becAUSe they were polite or not knowledgeable to what they are seeing.
It really pisses me off that someone would try to make it appear that I am trying to say other members here are liars and you sir, owe me an apology.

Since this whole thread has turned into nothing but an argument about who sees what I think it should be shut down. It seems to me there are those who are very bitter because they see rainbows and are angry towards those who don't.

David,
Thanks again for putting the corn down where I can get it.
Cyrano,
That's an interesting idea, hope someone tries it.

I may not be well-informed enough on this issue, but the PJ has a lens and the human eye is a lens. So when I read posts about filters helping with rainbows(for at least one person), I wonder if rainbows could be lessoned by somehow altering the light transferred between these two lenses.

Getting back to the brightness issue, If you do find the effect lessens with brightness, could you just turn the brightness of the projector down? Does that help? Since I don't see rainbows I can't really test it.
Also, I think you said that room lighting was a factor. I tend to watch mine wit a bit of light. I don't really like total darkness. I think the X1 is a really good projector even with the lights on.
I also watch my Samsung DLP in normal lighting. I have seen some colors if I dart my eyes away from the set which I think is similar to rainbows. Since the set it only 42" I think it's normal to look away at something in the immediate area.
Personally I think if you should really try to demo a PJ or TV if you can to rule out rainbow issues but more important than that, if you can try one in your home, that is where the real test is going to be.

Smitty & Dean, try and keep the discussion going without any personal attacks. Most of this thread is filled with good advice and discussion, I will not delete the thread because of a few bad eggs.
But I will delete certain posts if they continue to get out of hand.

BTW, if this topic was not being discussed in this thread it would just pop up in another one.

Keep it clean,

Thanks,
Kysersose

"Also, I think you said that room lighting was a factor. I tend to watch mine wit a bit of light. I don't really like total darkness. I think the X1 is a really good projector even with the lights on."

Dean, glad we cleared that up. What I meant with room lighting, is that when lights are on and are hitting the screen, this affects the perceived brightness of the image (it is getting "washed out"). It could also affect such things as pupil dilation, etc...which would increase the intensity of the image when the lights are off.

Dean, In the interest of not letting emotions divert this thread, I hereby apologize for my comments, and I have edited my previous post. I do think, however, that if you go back and read the post you made that I was reacting to, you will see how I (and others) could be offended and might not take it to be funny. Also, I recall reading posts from you in the past on this issue that containded a similar tone and style. (It's not easy to forget a name like Dean Martin.) I will take you at your word though, and will assume that you were trying to be funny and that I misunderstood your intentions. :)

Hmmm, pupil dialation with regards to the brightness of the light. You may be convincing me on how strong of a brightness connection there really is. :D

It's not easy to forget a name like Dean Martin.)
I know, that's why I use it.:D
Apology accepted. I honestly didn't think my comment was insulting but I guess if you have had severe rainbow sensitivity I guess I will have to take it into account. I have no rainbow sensitivity which probably causes me to have little sensitivity on the subject.
I want to stress that early on there were many many posts that made it appear to me that rainbows were a problem that most people would encounter and almost caused me to miss the boat on something I really enjoy which is why I tend to be sarcastic about this problem. I now have two DLP displays and had I not taken a chance, I don't know what I would be using. But it angered myself, and some other members here to the point that we tend to be a bit more harsh when it comes to educating others.

THE WORST POSTS:

Just an example of a post that bugs me that I may read here or at the Home Theater forum.
A couple of times a week I will read either an X1 DLP thread or a Samsung DLP thread where someone will be asking if they should buy DLP.
Almost every time someone will come in and say "Yeah, but it has rainbows". These to me are the worst kinds of threads because we all need to remember that there are people reading, they may not even post, but looking for similar advice. I'm not saying people have to explain the phenomenon every time but at least be accurate. That's all I'm asking.

In this thread someone mentioned subtitles. If you watch material while reading subtitles, does this make rainbows much more noticeable? Where I now live, the locals like to have (English) subtitles turned on for (English language) DVD movies, to make it easier for them to understand, so would this make DLP a questionable choice?

SAM seeks female companion who is beautiful, intelligent, and insensitive to rainbows. (SAM = Single Advanced Member)

Referring back to the poster who used a Hoya ND2 filter to reduce rainbows-
Are rainbows a result of the combination of sequential color and pulsating brightness? So if you reduce the intensity of the pulsating brightness, you may reduce the intensity of the rainbows?

Originally posted by Dean Martin
I want to stress that early on there were many many posts that made it appear to me that rainbows were a problem that most people would encounter and almost caused me to miss the boat on something I really enjoy which is why I tend to be sarcastic about this problem.

It is unfortunate you almost missed the boat on something you enjoy because of the talk about rainbows. It is unfortunate I ended up buying a DLP I had to return because there was not enough talk about rainbows (at least at the time.) Perhaps this thread has generated enough pro and con discussion so people will know that they must make their own judgment based on what THEY see. Some will undoubtedly say: "What is all this baloney about rainbows. I don't see a thing." Others will say: "Man, I can't even watch this thing. I am glad I read all that stuff about rainbows and made sure that I bought this from a dealer with a good return policy."

Maybe it's like Day Of The Triffids and we DLPer's will soon . . .
No. I don't even want to go there.

:cool:

It is unfortunate you almost missed the boat on something you enjoy because of the talk about rainbows. It is unfortunate I ended up buying a DLP I had to return because there was not enough talk about rainbows (at least at the time.)

Hmmm, I see how we are at such opposite ends of the spectrum. Thanks for putting it in perspective.

I am glad everything is starting to come together now.

We can all agree that it is a very subjective thing, and that it could be a non-issue, or a deal breaker, depending on the person. Note, that when I say this, I mean there are people who may very well see rainbows, but not be bothered by them. Or, there may be people who see them once and a while, and find that enough to warrant a change of projector.

We can also agree that several factors are occuring which can increase or decrease a persons perception of rainbows, but this too is subjective and its effect can vary from person to person.

Lesson to be learned by everyone out there?

1) Don't shy away from DLP's just because you have HEARD about rainbows.
2) DO audition a DLP, preferably for as long as you can, to determine if you actually see rainbows. If you do not see them after extended viewings on different types of materials, you COULD be good to go.
3) Understand that you may be able to see them as time goes on OR you may see them less and less as time goes on.
4) Also understand that source material, ambient lighting, colour wheel speed, etc..etc...can have an affect on your perception of rainbows. When testing, vary the source material, and change the lighing conditions to match more appropriately what you will be watching in.
5) I would suggest goign to see, even for 15 minutes or so, as many DLP's as possible so you can determine how sensitive you are to seeing rainbows.

Hopefully that covers most of the bases, and I am sure this type of points are what forum users are really looking for. Dean, and others, the reason Smitty and I may seem a bit extreme is that as people who can see rainbows, we would hate for someone to purchase a projector sight unseen only to discover that they, personally, cannot stand the rainbows they see. Therefore, when you see a thread where someone says a particular projector has rainbows, users should NOT take this to mean you will see rainbows personally, BUT they should take it as a notice that someone sees rainbows on that projector, which may mean you might as well.

subtitles can increase problems with rainbows for the simple reason that they force you to move your eyes more. When your eye is moving along on the picture there is a greater chance that it will miss some of the information and the part that should be white looks tinted.

I think brightness (or lack there of) might help with rainbows the same way defocusing helps with screen door. Basically loosing some information is good some times :)

Anthony P, Yes, a small loss for large gain can be very good.
And it seems that the degree of the saccadic eye movement may contribute to seeing rainbows. I'm no expert, but I don't think the viewer actually perceives this eye movement.
Anyway, can't really control human eye movement, which is why I'm curious about brightness control, whether it be filters, screen gain, ambient light, etc.

Hello All,

I'm a FP Newbie who just purchased an InFocus X1 yesterday sight unseen. I've been reading these forums for the past 3 months and have learned an awesome amount of knowledge concerning FP, so I kinda knew what to expect and what not to expect from my new DLP PJ.

I set everything up in my totally light-controlled basement; the walls are painted blue(only the ceiling is white), and its a very long room. Only thing is, I didnt have enough dough left over for a screen, so right now I'm projecting onto a 70" X 70" SHOWER CURTAIN, crinkles and all.

Ok, 1st DVD I put in (using Xbox thru Svideo, not da best I know) was Matrix Reloaded. I skipped to the "burly brawl" sequence, and man o man, all I saw were rainbows! They didn't give me headaches or anything, but they were bothersome....at first.

2nd DVD I popped in was Gladiator. I didn't notice rainbows here as much as in Matrix Reloaded; also, I was still setting things up while Gladiator was playing. I could still easily see rainbows, but I was trying to train my eyes to the DLP image in hopes of not seeing them anymore.

Wife gets home, and I pop in 3rd DVD, LOTR:FOTR EE. We watch it the entire first disc and already I'm seeing SIGNIFICANTLY less rainbows. She says she only sees them when she "flutters" her eyes or strains to look for them.

Next up, I put in Toy Story 2. No rainbows AT ALL. Something about animation makes the image look 3D, even on my ghetto shower-curtain screen.

Then I put in an Xbox game, Splinter Cell, which looks abosolutely magnificent. Again, NO RAINBOWS here at all. And I was trying to look for them. Playing a video game on a 5 ft image was quite the experience, let me tell you...

Lastly, we hook up the Gamecube (with a crappy composite connection), and the wife plays her new game, Zelda the Wind Waker.
The game looks amazing and not even a hint of rainbows.

A lot of posts in the forums said that video games make the rainbow effect worse, but I don't see them at all; only during film-based material.

In closing, I'd recommend demoing a DLP PJ before buying; I was highly succeptible to rainbows at first, but somehow (Thank God) my eyes got used to them. Just keep on watching, and hopefully you're eyes will adjust like mine. Rainbows also seem HIGHLY dependent on source material; once I get my HTPC and new screen set up in my basement, I probably won't see rainbows much at all.

When i first demoed the X1, i saw minimal rainbows. As the demo period led to an end, i saw a bit more...

We purchased the X1, and when we recieved it, i saw MORE rainbows..

Its now about 2 weeks after i've gotten it, and I can truly say that I see VERY LITTLE (if any) rainbows at all when i watch movies. Only occasionally with credits, and captions/subs.

I've even played video games where its just colored lines on a black background and I do not see them (REZ to be exact).

So yes, im also in the camp where as time goes on, I adjusted to the rainbows where I dont see them (or at least just dont notice them)

So yes, im also in the camp where as time goes on, I adjusted to the rainbows where I dont see them
This was something I tried to mention in an earlier post. That after a few sittings you may not see them anymore.

Paradigm, Where in the world can you buy a 70"x70" Shower curtain? That seems Huge to me. Anyway, it's possible that the curtain is too reflective and eventually if you switch to a matte screen it will lessen the effect for you.

For those who want to TRY to see rainbows, to evaluate how distracting they are to them personally, find a dark DVD scene that has bright objects (preferably white vertical lines). Why vertical? I think the eyes move further, quicker, and easier from horizontally than they do vertically. Therefore, vertical white lines will more easily show the trails of red, green, and blue as you move your eyes across them. If this worst case scenario is OK for you, rainbows won't be an issue. I see rainbows for scenes like that, but most scenes I don't see them, no matter how hard I try (especially brightly and uniformly lit scenes).

I have a Samsung HLN5065.

Hey Paradigm_Shift23, you might want to look over at the Screens forum AVS Forum > Display Devices > Screens. Plenty of very low $ DIY screen ideas. Painting your wall white would likely give you a much better picture than that shower curtain. There are also $10-15 solutions involving a trip to Home Depot. Lots of info over there and you'll be happier with the results. Welcome to the time-sucking world of Home Theater. :)

JayW

Let's say it is possible to lesson rainbows by reducing contrast and brightness. Obviously, those are two reasons to buy a DLP PJ. Thus a catch-22.

However, if a Z1 has 700 lumens and 800:1 CR and an X1 has 1100 lumens and 2000:1 CR, perhaps there is room to do this on the X1 and still enjoy better CR than an LCD. Just a thought.

In reality, though, the X1 is something like 1000:1 contrast and 450 lumens in video mode. Of course, the real contrast of the Z1 is something like 400:1...

Right, scoby. I was simply using the published specs to illustrate the general percentage difference, which seems to be the same with your CR numbers.

"Paradigm, Where in the world can you buy a 70"x70" Shower curtain?"

$6 at Lowes...I think they're all that big, aren't they?


I re-watched the "burly brawl" sequence in Matrix Reloaded once I got everything set up & focused, and I still see lots of rainbows. Its the worst(for me) in this particular DVD. Its probably all those black Agent Smith suits moving quickly.

But, during scenes where CGI is used heavily, I see no rainbows at all.

Also, I watched it after a very long and stressful day at work, so my eyes were extremely tired; tired eyes also make rainbows a lot worse.

Anyway, making a DIY screen tomorrow...I'll make a detailed rainbow report after I get it setup.

I re-watched the "burly brawl" sequence in Matrix Reloaded once I got everything set up & focused, and I still see lots of rainbows. Its the worst(for me) in this particular DVD. Its probably all those black Agent Smith suits moving quickly.

But, during scenes where CGI is used heavily, I see no rainbows at all.

Hmmm.... I thought that the CGI in the "Burly brawl" scene WAS used heavily. IMHO

Originally posted by Kysersose
I've still yet to meet ONE person who can see them that is NOT a member of this forum.

When I first decided to go fpj, I took my wife to our local HT store and they were showing Gladiator on a Firehawk with a IF110 (4x wheel). I had never told her anything about pj technology. After about 15 seconds, she leans over and says, "What are all those flashes of color?" I told her I'd tell her later. After about 5 minutes of watching, she said, "My eyes are tired."

I'm not going to rehash the whole debate, but it boils down to this:

If you see them and they bother you, it's a problem.

If you don't see them or see them and don't care, then great for you.

I am the former so I bought LCD. But I do think it's an issue worth discussing, just like CR and SDE with LCDs. Everything is a trade off. What's a good trade for you is a bad trade for me.

I don't like milky blacks, but I like them a lot better than I like rainbows, but that's just me.

I'm actually considering trying one of the new HD2 machines with a faster wheel to see if it's any better for me. If I don't see them, you can bet I'll buy one. It doesn't have to be a DLP/LCD war.

I saw rainbows in the A/V showroom too. My wife didn't see them. We took a chance (I could return the unit with no charge, however) and now I still occasionally see a rainbow but it's not a concern and it's very rare.
I'm glad I got one home and checked it out at my leisure.

The X1 has spawned one more X1 HT to my next door neighbor and last night another couple watched and wondered how I got such a large HDTV plasma display. ( Looks better than that :) - at least the Plasmas I've seen have too much Pixel structure.) I pointed out the X1 behind us on the ceiling and they were surprised.

jacksonian,
Your points are right on, especially about trade offs (with low-priced LCDs you get more SDE and lower CR; with DLP you may get rainbows).

So instead of people missing out on what may have been the best PJ for them, or engaging in futile(sometimes hostile) debates, I like to ponder/discuss ways of diminishing the problems. (inexpensive ways)

Cyrano, can I assume that if you see rainbows in a scene, and then re-watch the scene you will see them again? If so, have you tried to decrease the contrast and/or brightness and then re-watched the rainbow scene? I'd be curious to know if you can lesson the rainbows and still maintain a higher CR than a low-priced LCD PJ.

Regarding DLP wheel speed:

For what it's worth 2 out of 5 in this family were bothered by rainbows on the X1 (2X speed wheel) when I say bothered I mean we couldn't make it through a movie without feeling that funny feeling you get when you are about to be seasick.

0 out of 5 are bothered by rainbows on our Sharp Z90U (5X speed wheel). The 2 of us that were bothered before can still see them occaisionally even with the 5X wheel but it doesn't give us headaches and we are not sending this projector back.

jimnc,

The rainbows I see are of such a split-second duration that I am not bothered. I don't see any need to lower the lumens output as it appears to be just about perfect as-is. I wouldn't want it to be any lower.
If I were considering the X1 I would take advantage of Infocus' 10 day free in-home trial. It can be located by searching threads.

I got mine at BB with a 14 day "no restocking fee" guarantee. (receipt signed by Store Manager ;) )

jacksonian has the right idea: get what works for you. Both DLPs and LCDs have their good points and bad points.

Good luck

Whenever a newbie brings up a "projector suggestions" thread, I always chime in to tell them that they need to see/audition at least one of each LCD and DLP pjs. I find that people fall into one camp or the other pretty quickly.

This is the best example of rainbows I've seen on the net. It's the first download on this page (page is in French). This is exactly what happened to me with an X1 and was the reason I had to go for an LCD eventually. Most people don't see it this badly, I wish I was one of them, I love DLP :(

http://franckhc.free.fr/comparoDownload.htm

I hope the site owner doesn't mind me posting this!

That's what I saw except it seemed more in my face in real life, more intrusive.

My God man, now I can see why people who seem them are so bitter.
If that is anything close to what you see, that's terrible.

I think the folks who don't see them will say that clip is a gross exaggeration. However, being one of those people who is sensitive to them, for me, it's worse than that example. They're right in your face. That's what I see.

The French simulation that Diarmuid links to is actually pretty similar to what I was seeing with Attack of the Clones and an X1 in some scenes for frequency and annoyance of rainbows. It was during the 10 day free test, and obviously I didn't buy the projector (Z2 is on order...). I could watch animated stuff with no problems though.

As for a can-you-see-it-or-not comparison, we just bought a high-end 2x DLP business projector at work (incl. DCDI deinterlacer...). At a recent meeting one engineer (out of about 10 in the room) walked out early muttering about flashing lights causing a headache. Presumably a few others saw them, but not badly enough to be bothered. Last day before XMas the guys fired up a DVD and only the one guy was bothered by the rainbows enough to work instead of watch the movie. Nobody was waving hands in front of their eyes trying to see rainbows -- none of them knew what "rainbows" were at the time.

As mentioned over and over, either you see them or you don't and if you do, it can vary from minimal to overwhelming impact. People who pretend they don't exist are like people in Hawaii who would claim that there is no such thing as snow in winter because they don't get any--good for them, but it doesn't refute the existence of either snow or DLP rainbows.

I wish I could see that clip but at 26400 speed on our antiquated copper phone lines it takes too long to download. (No optional higher speeds for us in these boonies)

I'm not bothered by R's although I'm sure B/W foreign films with subtitles would look better to me if they didn't exist. That is where I notice them the most. An earlier poster mentioned a higher speed colorwheel as being the cure for his family's Rainbow problems. Is that the consensus? Would higher speed colorwheels greatly reduce their effects?

they should but more in a matter of degrees. some of the people that are bothered by a slower machine might not be bothered by the faster machines.

I'm fairly new here and thought I would tell you my experience with rainbows.

I purchased my x1 about 3 weeks ago. Before I purchased my PJ, I had done some research about them and had found some info on rainbows. By the time I was ready to watch my first movie I had forgotten about rainbows. Pirates of the Carribean is the first movie I saw on my X1. I noticed the rainbows right away and was pretty disappointed. The picture quality is superb, but these rainbows seemed like a hassle. I didnt' want to give up on this projector just yet. I watched Pirates movie, and found myself constantly distracted by the rainbows to the point that I wasn't able to concentrate on the plot. I even found myself purposefully moving my eyes back and forth quickly to see them.

The next movie I watched, I made a conscious effort not to concentrate on the rainbows. Anytime I would see one, I'd redirect myself to what's going on in the movie.

Long story short, the rainbows are far less bothersome now that I have decided to not let them bother me.


For those who are reading this and are considering buying a DLP projectorI have some advice (most of which has already been mentioned).

Definitely SEE FOR YOURSELF! Don't get discouraged about rainbows before you see for yourself. As with any kind of topic, there are so many opinions that you couldn't possibly make a decision based upon them. Seeing is believing. It is known that a very small percentage of people SEE the rainbows to begin with. If you are lucky enough to be part of the majority then you have nothing to worry about. The ones that see them, some of them experience being physically sick, some get headaches. If you are like me, you will notice them, but be less bothered by them ovetime.

It's definitely worth at least trying out a DLP. I mean, how else are you going to get a huge tv for under $1000?? That in itself is worth trying out a PJ. For some people, it's not for them. There are people that try PJ and sell them and buy a plasma tv at a ridiculously high price. IMO, a plasma has better quality image than any PJ could produce. In reality, you can't expect the same quality picture that you get on a small tv or plasma tv with a PJ. The best thing to do is not to compare them side by side. I was at a local audio/video store where they had the top of the line Infocus Screenplay projector set up and in the same room there was a samsung tv. I looked back and forth between the 2 units ans was thorougly disappointed with the PJ. The color, contrast was so much better on the tv.

In conclusion, try out a PJ for yourself. Don't make a comparision to a regular tv. Most improtantly, remind yourself at how much money you saved to get such a wonderful picture. (you may also laugh at the people that buy big screen tvs, if you'd like)

The blabbing has ended. :p

I am also new in these boards and am very interested in front projectors.

By x1, is everyone talking about Infocus x1?

Deleted: This type of question is against forum policy
Kysersose

And how about the screen? Does screen quality or lack there of make a huge difference?

stewart screen vs. regular screen vs. plain wall.

thanking you in advance,

Rammix

The X1 is selling regularly for $999, so $1150 is a bit high...

Rammix, this isn't the appropriate thread for your question.

Thanks, I think I found the "appropriate" thread. There was a link from this thread to that one.

sorry to bother

When I first got the X1 I did see rainbows quite often, didn't bother me I just saw them. Now after 3 months I don't see them any more, my eyes/brain seem to have adjusted. So glad I kept this unit, the contrast is simply super compared to the low end LCD unit's I looked at.

I'm going to remove the "sticky".
Anyone wishing to discuss rainbows should continue to do so in this thread and this thread only. All new rainbow threads will be deleted and any member creating one will be directed to this thread.

Thanks,
Kysersose

OK

After owning my X1 for over 3 months now and being very happy with it I decided to think about tweaking it. I had used it since I took it out of the box on the factory default settings and "thought" it looked great.

Initially I did not see rainbows. About a month after getting the projector they were becoming noticeable and they continued to become more and more obvious.

I found out that using the PJ at default settings means that you are in presentation mode. As another user on this forum mentioned it is all but impossible to achieve an excellent image in presentation mode. I did not know this so I immediately switched to film mode as recommended by many X1 users. Well I tried the THX optimizer on Star Wars AOTC, starting in film mode. This made a great improvement to the picture quality, much to my surprise and delight.

Over the last week since doing this I noticed that the rainbows were gone! I was barely seeing any at all. The only possible time I could still see them was when a bright white object was surrounded by darker areas. Overall they are about 95% gone!

I am not sure why this is but it definitely worked for me. Just for kicks during a movie tonight I put the pj in presentation mode to see just how different it was from the default settings. Unreal difference! In the scene I tried this on it was a close up of someones face. On default settings you could barely see the outline of their face, it was dark otherwise. On my saved optimized settings the face was totally detailed and much sharper too.

Based on my dramatic improvements in picture quality and rainbow reduction I would highly recommend all X1 users take the time to set up their projectors properly.

3 months without any calibration! Wow, you must have been really happy when you switched to film mode.

I agree with you 100%. A calibration should always be done before watching anything seriously. At the very least adjust contrast/brightness with the THX optimode (or Avia/DVE) and set the color temperature to your liking. Digital projectors clip whites very quickly when set even a little to high.

I forgot to mention I have the color temperature set to the middle setting, I can't remember what it's called now. It was far too red on the default temperature setting in film mode.

The dimmer the projector the less likely you are to see rainbows (as I understand it).

I have heard that too but the interesting part is that I do not perceive any lack of brightness with the new calibrated settings on film mode.

I'm sure this has already been posted but I just came across it. I am also one that doesn't see rainbows, at least on the X1 and the Samsung rear projectors.

www.dietforum.net/balagee/projected/rainbow.html

Yep, and the brighter whites the more rainbows, all presentation mode does is up the whites.

There's a clear segment of the color wheel that is only used in presentation mode. Using film or video modes turns off the clear section, reducing rainbows, and allowing for more accurate color reproduction.

Louse76 and ssj2, you are not kidding. This has SOLVED my rainbow problem.

Originally posted by docprego
As another user on this forum mentioned it is all but impossible to achieve an excellent image in presentation mode.

Yahoo! I think you're refering to one of my posts. Anyway, I wonder how many other folks have been 'rainbowed' by presentation mode? Hmmm. BTW: I give this thread about another two hours until it's killed. But hopefully kyersose with merge it with the "Ultimate Rainbow Thread". This might help some folks.

JayW

Edited for typo. Cool, this thread has been merged! Way to go Kyersose.

Merged "I got rid of my rainbows! (unintentionally)" with this one.
Please post all new rainbow threads here or they will be deleted.

Hi there, Got my PJ set up Sat nite, watched APOLLO 13 Sunday night & saw rainbows (a LOT) but don't see any with NEMO or SHREK or LOTR. Have it in FILM mode but haven't calibrated yet, so i'll try the THX calibration and see.
Bud

I'm surprised you didn't see them in LOTR. If you saw them in Apollo 13 you are obviously susceptible to them, so it's odd to not see them in LOTR.

At least I have read about a lot of people reporting rainbows in LOTR. Come to think of it I did not see any in LOTR either (back when I was in presentation mode and not calibrated).

Bump!

The dimmer the projector the less likely you are to see rainbows (as I understand it).

Not necessarily, I had the Piano HE-3100 (for two years) w/a relatively low lumens rating of 450 and could see rainbows. As I was an "early" adopter - I thought it was my eyeglasses as I was wondering why I'd had headaches after watching movies (not everytime though). But my wife has never been affected (even in the LOTR outdoor scenes where I thought it would have been obvious - so she's not susceptible)

So I sold it ... and jumped at upgrading to an Epson TW100 (new edition) (LCD) on clearout. Made a world of difference to me - but in all fairness is another level of projector too.

For my next upgrade - I'd only consider looking at a 3 chip DLP not a single chip, where I've heard the chance for rainbows is mitigated/eliminated.

I have been sitting on the fence and reading this board for over a
year now. I have finally decided to buy a PJ and am down to either
an X1 or a A10X. This weekend I have a couple of hours to myself(rare thing)
so I went to a high end home theater store to demo a PJ.
I was able to demo an Infocus DLP. Unfortunately I do not know what model
I viewed. The salesperson said it was brand new and we could not
see the model number on it. It was ceiling mounted so I got a pretty good
look at the top. Anyway I was able to watch Discovery HD for amount 15
minutes. The picture quality to my untrained eye was superb. The show I
watched was about the Egyptian pyramids. The issues I had with the image
was when I watched scenes with bright lights against dark backgrounds.

The lights seemed to shimmer toward purple (rainbows I guess). The effect
was short in duration but noticeable. There were some scenes when water
was poured from a vase against a dark background when the shimmer was
more apparent. When I watched this show I was totally concentrating on
the image quality rather than just watching the show. The worst part of the show
was during a ceremony reenactment when two people were holding torches
in a dark cave. The torch flames themselves looked
just terrible to me. You would be hard pressed to believe they were actually
torches it looked so bad. I tried to catch the same scene on a plasma
tv but could not. Overall I thought the picture was great but I guess I am
susceptible to rainbows. My biggest complaint was the poor looking torchlights.

Thanks

How's that for an eye catcher?
Take a look at the attached photograph of a BenQ PE8700 projecting just a white image from a computer thru the DVI port.

Yes, clearly this is not *THE* DLP rainbow ... but it is a rainbow, on a white image contrasting to black, from a DLP projector.

So, I pose this question ...

When people say they have seen DLP rainbow, are they really seeing the rainbow artifact from the color wheel?
Or are they seeing a defect in the projector as I have captured on film?

p.s. Yes, this projector is being returned to BenQ as defective. There is (apparently) a crack in one of the lens further along the optical path past the DMD.

The very few rainbows I see now on my X1 don't look anything like that photo. So I'm assuming (based on your theory) that I'm seeing the limitation of a 2x colour wheel, not a problem with my source.

Scott: he is aware its not a DLP rainbow: Yes, clearly this is not *THE* DLP rainbow ... but it is a rainbow, on a white image contrasting to black, from a DLP projector.

Yes, in general my question was ... (just throwing out round wild numbers)
If 20 people see rainbows but can't describe them simply ... are all 20 really seeing DLP rainbow or are 15 seeing DLP rainbow and 5 seeing some form of abnormality on a lens?

The acute, almost kaleidoscopic flashes of light (known as rainbows) aren't so bad... It's just like an LSD trip that never quite goes away!

Well, colour separation artifcats are very different in appearance from that picture, so I dont' know what to say about what peopel think. However, would that thing you took a picture of not be there all the time, if it is a lense defect?

I was wondering from my explanation above if I experienced rainbows or
was it something else.

Here is a snippet:

The lights seemed to shimmer toward purple (rainbows I guess). The effect
was short in duration but noticeable. There were some scenes when water
was poured from a vase against a dark background when the shimmer was
more apparent. When I watched this show I was totally concentrating on
the image quality rather than just watching the show. The worst part of the show
was during a ceremony reenactment when two people were holding torches
in a dark cave. The torch flames themselves looked
just terrible to me. You would be hard pressed to believe they were actually
torches it looked so bad. I tried to catch the same scene on a plasma
tv but could not. Overall I thought the picture was great but I guess I am
susceptible to rainbows. My biggest complaint was the poor looking torchlights.

I get Eye Strain Headaches. I've gotten them before reading this forum. I've gotten them before DLP's were invented. I get them at night (when driving), I get them during the day (glare). I get them at work (glare off the computer), I get them at home (glare off the TV). Most of these situations I can control by changing the source of the glare (curtains, sunglasses, etc).

So, along comes the introduction of digital projectors at work. We start with the big LCD -- low light, but if you turn off the overhead lights, you can see the picture really well, and no glare (or headache). Along come those cute little DLP's (infocus, etc) that put out a comparatively massive amount of light, so we can now keep the overhead lights on during meetings.

HEADACHE! I'm at the point now that I can't look at the screen during a presentation at work without getting a mild headache. Around this time I start looking around the internet for home theater advice, and come across this wonderful forum. And I learn about rainbows. At work, I notice rainbows on the DLP's. So, is it glare, or something else?

I borrow one of the small DLP's to take home and watch a movie at night. No external light source. Yes, I see rainbows. I don't get a headache, but I do notice eyestrain. Is it from the rainbow, or something else? The picture is very bright -- can I be getting eye strain from the primary light source?

Probably.

Hedglin, maybe you're running it in Presentation mode. That would give me a headache. :) What type of DLP is it?

I see rainbows on my X1 but they are getting less frequent and do not distract from the picture. I have had the projector for 2 weeks and saw them more initially but less and less as the days have gone by. No one else in my family has noticed them. I was concerned about buying the X1 because of this but went ahead anyway and picked one up from CC since they give you 2 weeks to return it. It did not go back yesterday and we are enjoying it very much.

hedglin,
I saw rainbows and had eyestrain on anything with a 4x or slower color wheel.

Monday I went by and looked at the InFocus 5700 with a 6 segment 5x wheel. I did not see the rainbows now, but I did have almost immediate eye strain. It's a weird sensation where it just feels like something's wrong, my eyes hurt and I kept blinking repeatedly.

So for me the rainbows were annoying, but it's the eyestrain that's the killer.

Well, for what it's worth... I DO have an X1 AND I DO see rainbows but am taking steps to reduce them, (painting the ceiling, walls, better cables, component hook up,etc) BUT, while watching PIRATES OF THE CARRIBEAN on my TV, I noticed rainbows! The scene there the Gov & daughter leave the mansion...the white building caused them. So...maybe other people don't see them to this extent but my point is they are THERE, even on TV so I LOVE my X!....wouldn't trade it if you offered me a SONY CRT ( I recently saw a CRT in action, it was OK, I've seen better (Tower of London Crown Jewels projectors! WOW!))! Rainbows are things some people see, some don't. It's the BETA/VHS debate all over again. The advice here is sound, TRY before you BUY! If they bother you...DON'T BUY IT! Don't get on here and WHINE about it.
Bud

Bud,
Thanks for your input. But I don't think most people here are whining about it. This is a community where people ask for and give advice about HT. If rainbows and eye strain weren't an issue with these pjs, then no one would be talking about it. Just like if blacks and screendoor weren't an issue then no one would be talking about those either.

This is not a BETA/VHS debate. Both of these technologies are going strong and making great improvements each year and they can and should coexist for some time to come.

I'm very rainbow sensitive, but I've never seen one on a CRT television. If you have, then perhaps you're not quite seeing the same thing we are. Painting your room and getting better cables is not going to improve rainbows. Speeding up that color wheel and adding more segments will.

I just got a BenQ 8220 projector and have a couple more days to decide whether to keep it or swap it out. While I did not see any rainbows when I demoed DVDs of Shreck, SW II: The Clone Wars, or The Thin Man, I did see a number of them when I demoed a DVD of HBO's From the Earth to the Moon. So I don't know if I will keep the projector or not. I keep hearing that you stop seeing them after a while, and I only seem to see them on some things. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

By the way, I have read a lot on this thread about using a film mode rather than a presentation mode. If your projector does not have a film mode, what should you do to reduce rainbows? Reduce the contrast, reduce the color temperature or color? Etc. I'd like to try it to see if it makes any difference.

I ran AVIA and did not find that I had to change much from the default settings on my BenQ. But it has a very high contrast level and I could probably set it lower.

I have an X1 that I will be taking back soon. I hoped that turning down contrast, brightness, etc would help, but to no avail. I demo'ed a very expensive Marantz DLP projector for a couple of minutes with a 6-segment, 9000 RPM wheel (5x) and couldn't see any trace of a rainbow. On Samsung DLP RPTVs I can see it now that I know how to look, but I have to try very hard.

Tweaking the projector did little for me (beyond dimming the rainbows with the image). Just my input.

The eyestrain may be coming from the DLP, but at a level that you cannot consciously perceive. It may not be rainbows, but likely the phenomenon that causes them. You see, unlike normal 3 chip designs and TV, where sequential FULL COLOUR images are repeated over and over, DLP is repeating three images of completely different colour (and even a white segment), over and over. The strain may be from trying to keep these images together. This may cause strain. Can I assume the 60hz flickers on CRT computer monitors drive you crazy?


Originally posted by hedglin

I borrow one of the small DLP's to take home and watch a movie at night. No external light source. Yes, I see rainbows. I don't get a headache, but I do notice eyestrain. Is it from the rainbow, or something else? The picture is very bright -- can I be getting eye strain from the primary light source?

Probably. [/B]

I've hadmy Xd300u Mitsu (2x 4segment 2000 lumens) for a few weeks now. This is my first DLP but had used an lcd pj for 2 yrs so know what a good picture should look like. I was able to identify rainbows right away on rolling white credits on a black background and especially on the in-between chapter screens on Law and Order where the big bold white words fly onto the black background -- Dung Dung!! First time I'd seen a DLP so it was at least interesting to see what people were talking about. Despite some of the hyperbole I've read, rainbows do not jump off the screen and slap you across the face. They're simply a visual artifact that is noticeable in certain situations. Now, after a few weeks and a hundred hours or so (it's my main tv) I don't notice them at all. Definitely no eye strain which I'm prone to with crt monitors. I'm definitely in the DLP fanclub now that I've determined rainbows are a non-issue for me. The picture is outstanding.

I think the whole crux of why there's so much rainbow discussion lies in that we (HT consumers) are asked to plunk down several thousand dollars on something we can't usually even demo! I say to the DLP pj manufacturers/distributors follow the X1's example of offering trial periods. Put down a deposit, charge a percentage of MSRP eg. $100.00 for a week's demo of a $1500 pj, and offer say a $50.00 rebate for purchase of the model demo'ed. My two cents.

Well I know this has been beaten to death already, but I thought I'd post my personal experience anyway. This IS the rainbow thread afterall...

I decided to buy an X1 just to see how far a 1k projector could go. I was expecting great things based on reviews I had read. I just got it TODAY. I can say without question, I am going to return it tomorrow. This thing is unwatchable to me (again, I know I'm in the minority here). I see rainbows every few seconds, WITHOUT having to dart my eyes around the screen. I see them every time there is a fast camera pan. Watching the X1 also gives me a nasty headache. My wife, who is FAR from a videophile, easily saw the rainbows too without me having to point it out. SHE is the one that said "we can't keep it". This was not something that had to sink in, or a "minor" issue, it isn't subtle at all to me. I really can't watch it without a lot of irritation. I now laugh at the posts from people saying it is something that has been blown out of proportion. I believe that certain people are more irritated by it than others and to the majority that don't seem to be bothered, more power to you, I think that's great for you.

But I find it hard to believe that you will never have people over that are like me (not good for a superbowl party). I will probably end up buying an LCD model such as the new Sanyo Z2 or Panasonic L500 -- both of which have problems of their own from what I've read here (vertical banding) as well as the usual deficiencies of LCD (black levels, contrast, brightness) when compared to DLP. But to me, ANY projector has to be better than this X1.

I have no idea if I would have the same problem with other DLP projectors, I suspect not but I'd have to demo them to be sure.

But I find it hard to believe that you will never have people over that are like me (not good for a superbowl party).
I've had plenty of Super Bowl parties and I've yet to run into someone like you. :) Sometimes the setup can have something to do with it.
(Or I've been REALLY lucky)
I've also had a LOTR's Marathon as well. No casualties.
And yes, every DLP PJ is different. IMHO

I too see rainbows on my CRT TV. Same experience as BudBrey above. Not a lot but sometimes. They look exactly like what I occasionally see on My X1. I don't understand it but they are there. Any good explanations?

Originally posted by Kriilin
I think the whole crux of why there's so much rainbow discussion lies in that we (HT consumers) are asked to plunk down several thousand dollars on something we can't usually even demo! I say to the DLP pj manufacturers/distributors follow the X1's example of offering trial periods. Put down a deposit, charge a percentage of MSRP eg. $100.00 for a week's demo of a $1500 pj, and offer say a $50.00 rebate for purchase of the model demo'ed. My two cents.

Because you would have 2000+ red-blooded Americans RENTING projectors from you at $100 for the week of the Superbowl.

And then where would you be? Thousands of projectors you could no longer sell as new ...
If you notice, the companies who have "demo" periods are the same companies who have the "warranty exchange" programs and the mass sales of "Refurbished" projectors (Infocus, Mitsubishi and NEC). That way it compensates for the used inventory.

The best anyone can do is have a respectible return policy.

And to touch on (or add to) what Kysersose mentioned ...
Yes, you do run a risk of having someone over that may be effected by rainbows. But you cannot honestly say you don't run the same risk of having someone over that is bothered by your heat in the house ... and the odds (IMO) DOUBLE that they would be bothered by your pet dander over rainbows of a projector.
Are you going to NOT have a cat or dog just because Bob from the softball team might be bothered by allergies when he comes over once a year?

Sounds silly to me ... buy for you and your family. If others can enjoy your new toy too ... all the better.
By the way ... I think my invite to Kysersose's Superbowl party got lost in the mail?
:D

(edit was to complete a thought on the rental projectors)

Originally posted by Kysersose
I've had plenty of Super Bowl parties and I've yet to run into someone like you. :) Sometimes the setup can have something to do with it.
(Or I've been REALLY lucky)
I've also had a LOTR's Marathon as well. No casualties.
And yes, every DLP PJ is different. IMHO

How many Super Bowl parties have you had with an X1? Did you actually ask your friends if any of them had a headache after the game? Maybe your friends are courteous. When a friend comes over with a brand new car and is beaming about his purchase how many times do you point out all the negatives? If you're like most people, you would compliment the nice features only. Same applies to a home theater.

But you guys are totally right about buying for your own family. If it didn't bother me, I would definitely keep the X1 I bought. You can't make a decision based on what some vistor might think and I wouldn't expect you to.

Has anyone seen a list of 1 chip dlp units arranged by their color wheel speeds? Many of the latest HD2 models feature 5x speeds, but I am looking for a complete, or at least near-complete list of current production models that are, say, 3x or 4x minimum, each listed with it's wheel speed. If nobody has seen such a list, would someone be able to reply and write one out - I think it may be useful to others, as well.

I had a buddy and a couple guys he works with over to my house on Tuesday night. My buddy had done a little research on projectors and the other two guys were looking to buy either a large RPTV or plasma units. None of them had seen a X1 demo and so I obliged.

After watching a few different clips from DVD's, my friend mentioned rainbows. He said he hadn't seen a single one, and neither had either of his co-workers. Having had my X1 for a couple months I was seeing them all the time during the demo's.

I tried explaining it to them, but they still couldn't see them. In the past I noticed if I held something close to the projector lens I could see a rainbow pattern. So I took the tip end of a fishing pole and whipped it back and forth in front of the lens (don't worry, I was about a foot away and it was going up and down, not towards the PJ).

They all saw the rainbow pattern in the air where the fishing pole was whipping back and forth. Then they watched a few more demo's and suddenly they started saying, "there, do you see that?" and "I saw it again".

These are the same three guys who for the first half hour didn't see a single rainbow. Not until it was shown to them did they notice it. Now I'm worried that they may not consider a DLP PJ because of the rainbows.

I'm not too happy with the rainbows on my unit. I wish I didn't know about them in the first place, because now I can't help but notice them. I try very hard to ignore them because I love my X1.

So if you're in the "I've never seen them" camp, you could try the same thing I did to illustrate it to these guys. Be warned though, once you've seen them, you may not be able to ignore them.

How many Super Bowl parties have you had with an X1? Did you actually ask your friends if any of them had a headache after the game? Maybe your friends are courteous. When a friend comes over with a brand new car and is beaming about his purchase how many times do you point out all the negatives? If you're like most people, you would compliment the nice features only. Same applies to a home theater.
First off, I don't own the X1. I use to own the LT150 and now the LT240K.
Secondly, do you know how long a Super Bowl party is? (Pre-game included) It's not like disliking a car. The car you don't like doesn't bother you. If you have a problem with rainbows you'll get a headache. (So I've been told) I'm sure I would have heard about it after 4 or 5 plus hours of Super Bowl activities. :)
And yes, I have asked a few guests. I stopped asking a long time ago though. Too many strange looks. :)

Originally posted by Kysersose
I don't own the X1.

Didn't think so.

Despite some of the hyperbole I've read, rainbows do not jump off the screen and slap you across the face.

:D They do slap some of us in the face. Consider yourself lucky.:D

I'm still sold on the DLP technology over LCD, I just need a faster color wheel. 5x wheels on the Samsung DLP and the Marantz projector I saw were fast enough that I didn't see any rainbows (although now that I have seen them one the X1 I can barely make myself see them on the Samsung 61" DLP).

I'm still wavering between picking up the Optoma H30 or the new Infocus 4805 - I think 4x will be a speedy enough wheel for me. I think the RGBW is the killer for me - I only see big smears of rainbows when white/black are involved. All colors without white I see nothing but beautful picture.

Well, if you had me over to your Super Bowl party, even if you had an IF5700, I'd have to leave after about 5 minutes with a splitting headache. I guess you guys (or your friends) are lucky that no one has been bothered by eye strain and headaches. It's just really hard to believe that since my wife and I both have this problem, that somehow we turned out to be the 1% of people that are bothered while you guys have 100's of people over and say that no one is bothered.

I'm more of the theory that people either a) aren't going to associate the eye strain or headache with the projector or b) they aren't going to tell you because they don't want to hurt your feelings.

Even a lot of you guys that own DLP admit to seeing rainbows. Do you really think your guests don't just because they don't volunteer it?

As for the pet dander issue being more bothersome: My friends know I have dogs and if they're allergic, they don't come over. But they don't know if they're going to get a headache and eye strain until they get here.

Please! I'm certainly going to complain of a headache if I have one. Besides, you can see rainbows and still walk away unharmed. I used to see them all the time when I first got my LT150. Of course I was trying damn hard! (Thanks AVS ;))
I don't see them anymore. Some it it may be related to fine tuning the PJ, some of it may be adaptable, and some of it may be that I finally stopped looking for them.

I'm sorry that you have a problem with Rainbows. You ARE in the minority.

I've had some AVS members over for HT meetings, some of them complain of rainbows. But none of my family, co-workers or guests ever have.
Strange but true.

Sorry, but I'm not going to worry about the minority.

Oh - drmoss asked for a summary of current models - AVS member Ifunk had this summary in his post a few days ago:



Quoted from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3280560&highlight=optoma+h30#post3280560

Revised summary:

1) Sharp DT200: SVGA 600*800, 600 ANSI, 1200:1, 100" from 12'3, DLP .55", 2500 HRS lamp life, 29 DB, DVI input, 1 yrs warr., ?x RGBRGB wheel.

2) Optoma H30: SVGA 600*800 (max 1280*1024), 800 ANSI, 2000:1, 100" from 14'2, DLP .6", 2000 HRS lamp life, 32 DB, no DVI, 2 yrs warr., 4x wheel RGBRGB.

3) Infocus X1: SVGA 600*800 (max 1280*1024), 1100 ANSI, 2000:1, 100" from 15'2, DLP .6", 2000 HRS lamp life, 37 DB, no DVI, 2 yrs warr., ?x wheel.

4) BenQ 6100: SVGA 600*800 (max 1280*1024), 1500 ANSI, 2000:1, 100" from 16'6, DLP .6", 3000 HRS lamp life, 34 DB, no DVI, 3 yrs warr., 3x wheel RGBW, $100 rebate.

5) BenQ 6200: XGA 1024*768 (max 1280*1024), 1700 ANSI, 2000:1, 100" from 16'6, DLP .7", 3000 HRS lamp life, 34 DB, no DVI, 3 yrs warr., 3x wheel RGBW, free bulb.

6) Optoma EzPro 737: XGA 1024*768 (max 1280*1024), 1500 ANSI, 1800:1, 100" from 16', DLP .7", 2000 HRS lamp life, 32+ DB, (DVI) MI-DA (P&D), 3 yrs warr., 3x wheel, $2200 + range.


For the couple of question marks:
We know the X1 is a 2x, the Sharp DT200 is a 4x, isn't it? I thought this was a very useful summary. Also the Optoma H30 @ 4x RGBRGB needs to be added to the list.

Omzig... Now that's really funny man...you had to resort to a fishing pole to coerce your friends into seeing rainbows. Haha, that's really taking it to the limit dude. In fact... I'm seeing rainbows just re-reading your post...hahaha.

Quote:
tried explaining it to them, but they still couldn't see them. In the past I noticed if I held something close to the projector lens I could see a rainbow pattern. So I took the tip end of a fishing pole and whipped it back and forth in front of the lens (don't worry, I was about a foot away and it was going up and down, not towards the PJ).


Sorry man, I find this hilarious. Don't get me wrong , I see the occasional rainbow and I do believe a small minority are really bothered by them... but to go to this extreme really illustrates the point of how minor a problem it is. BTW, how long did you have to stand there waving your pole before your friends finally said they they saw them just to get you to stop? Hahaha

In fact, since I haven't heard of a single class action suit against the manufacturers of DLP I truly find it difficult to believe the problem is as great as it is portrayed on this forum. It just amazes me that with the relatively small percentage of the DLP viewing population that actually sees rainbows that almost every rainbow viewer that posts here has a wife that sees the same thing...statistically impossible when you think about it. Yet that is what is posted....ood that.

Sorry Omzig, I apologize in advance for sounding impertinent. But, you really gave me a laugh with the visuals I conjured with your post. No offense really meant and I do believe you are bothered by rainbows and have every right to express your concerns.

Originally posted by Kysersose
Please! I'm certainly going to complain of a headache if I have one. Besides, you can see rainbows and still walk away unharmed.

I'm sorry that you have a problem with Rainbows. You ARE in the minority.

Sorry, but I'm not going to worry about the minority.

It's not the rainbows that are the problem, it's the eyestrain and headache.

Obviously people that are bothered by DLP are in the minority, but that doesn't mean that your family or friends won't be in that minority.

I just have one question:

Why are you DLP guys who aren't bothered by them so insensitive to other people? What if your best friend turns out to be someone who gets a migraine headache any time he sees flashing lights? You're gonna put your strobe light out for the party every time he comes over because you're not going to worry about the minority?

It's as if because you aren't bothered by it that it therefore must not be real and that you just don't care what other people experience.

Enough people on this forum report back that they are bothered by this that you must know this is a problem for a lot of people. I'm happy for you if you're not, but I don't understand the attitude that goes with it. It's a stupid 1st grade star bellied sneeches attitude.

I should say in all fairness that I kept the X1 for another day. Last night I watched maybe 3 hours straight including a dvd. I did NOT get any headache whatsoever, so the headaches I had from day 1 were probably due to a different cause. That said, I still see rainbows on nearly every fast moving object or scene without trying to look for them -- it is particularly bad when there is a white background I think. And obviously I see rainbows every time I turn my head which is annoying but not a big deal as I don't normally turn my head much when viewing. I am still planning on exchanging it for an LCD (having 1280x768 is most important to me).

After owning the SP4800 for a couple of weeks (returned it waiting on the SP4805) let me add a few comments

The picture quality was absolutely astounding. I have only been bothered by rainbows in occasional scenes. In League of Extrod. Gentlemen it was a burden to have to deal with all the rainbow artifacts. The fight scene in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome (in the cage) was unbearable. It usually manifests itself in dark scenes with fast moving light or torches running by.

However in Pirates of the Carribean I barely noticed any at all again maybe because it just wasnt one of those movies that arent DLP unfriendly. There are definately those movies that don't like they way DLP works particularly I guess on a 2x colorwheel.

That said. The other 90 percent of the movies and sports events I watched were simply incredible. Finding Nemo would never look as good on an LCD as it did on the SP4800. OMG I can't even describe how awesome Seabiscuit looked or Monsters Inc. I didn't even notice any rainbows in The Mummy Returns series.

Comparing DLP rainbows to that of a Strobe light is stretching it a little far dont you think? Lets be realistic a little.

Headaches? Eyestrain? Maybe I had some initially but that was because I went from a 32 inch TV to a 120 inch TV. That would give anyone eyestrain till you got used to the size, which I did. Headaches? I think I had one but that might have been from shaking my head wildly back and forth trying to see rainbows.

The plus is that while LCD owners are plagued by vertical banding and poor contrasts on all their movies i was only plagued by 2 scenes in 2 different movies by rainbows. The rest were flawless. LOTR ext edition looked breathtaking.

I can't wait for the SP4800 with its new 4x 6 segment colorwheel Im almost assured a perfect picture considering the very few annoying rainbows that I did see.

Originally posted by IThanos
Finding Nemo would never look as good on an LCD as it did on the SP4800.

Comparing DLP rainbows to that of a Strobe light is stretching it a little far dont you think? Lets be realistic a little.

Headaches? Eyestrain? Maybe I had some initially but that was because I went from a 32 inch TV to a 120 inch TV. That would give anyone eyestrain till you got used to the size, which I did.

The plus is that while LCD owners are plagued by vertical banding and poor contrasts on all their movies i was only plagued by 2 scenes in 2 different movies by rainbows. The rest were flawless.

LOTR ext edition looked breathtaking.


1) Why is that?
2) I wasn't comparing DLP to a strobe light. He said he didn't worry about the minority. I was simply asking him if his disregard for other people's experience extended to other parts of his life.
3) I have been watching a 106" screen for a year now, the last DLP I watched was on a 90" Firehawk, so it wasn't eyestrain due to size.
4) I may be "plagued" by poor contrast on all my movies, but I've never had any part of any movie that was unbearable or a burden as you described 2 of your movies.

Why can't DLP owners/lovers just admit that this is a real problem for some people and that it would be fair to at least acknowledge that fact. I have no problems acknowledging LCDs issues with blacks/contrast/VB, and in fact even though I think it's nothing, I make sure to point it out to people before they rush out and buy a pj like mine, just so they know everything up front, even if they can't see it. And why do DLP owners/lovers have to constantly get nasty about it and say that either a) it's not real or b) I don't care if anyone else gets a headache, I don't care about them.

I would love to be able to have DLP. I went and looked at them again this year before I upgraded my LCD because I had hoped that I could tolerate it. Maybe an $8k BenQ 8710 WOULD be perfect for me (but not at 4x the cost of my LCD). I would LOVE to have darker blacks and no VB. But it's a fact that rainbows/headache/eyestrain is a problem for some people. Why not just admit that and say, "Yes, for some people it's an issue, but it's not for me and I prefer the DLP image, I sure hope none of my guests are bothered by it, but that's a chance I'm willing to take. I'll ask my guests if they're bothered by the image at all, and if enough of them are that it takes the fun out of having people over, then I just won't have people over anymore."

I guess I just don't get the defensiveness. It sure seems like insecurity to me. I know LCD has lots of drawbacks, so does CRT, so does DLP, so does plasma, etc...