The unit was manufactured in April of 2004.
Here's the firmware information:

SW MP1.15
H/W 10.4
DB 4.15
Guide 7.1.20
251 4/6/2004

I have offered to show the folks the issues, and do a side--by--side comparison with another unit.

Rumour has it that I will hear back from them sometime this coming week.
That was before I encountered a 2nd unit (at work) with same symptoms, and also before yesterday's testing... which narrows the location of the issue considerably...

P.S. Advanced Member from Mount Prospect:
Would you like to see it firsthand? I'm near Dempster & Crawford...

I think April 2004 was when LG switched to the 451-serial-numbered 2004 model, so evidently the timing problem has not been dealt with.

I had two recurring problems with the 2003 units (including the refurb which had the 1.15 update and other data exactly as you quote above):
(1) loss of guide data requiring rescan and overnight wait
(2) partial lockup, usually with "Invalid channel" message, requiring brief unplug to reset. My 2004 units don't have these issues, and seem to be working well, so I concluded that the model change involved something beyond what the 1.15 update addresses.

The chattering issue occurred tonight while recording NBC TV at 7:15 PM EST. Had to shut it off. After immediate turn on, everything worked fine.
wish there were other units to choose from that do the same thing with an RGBHV output.

Originally posted by kucharsk
Do you honestly think LG would fix this at this point? Why wouldn't/shouldn't they? I honestly believe that this is a problem on Jan's unit...not every 3410. I will verify mine doesn't display the problem soon.

Just to chime in on the subject...

First off, I have read every post in this thread.

I have two 3410s that I've been running since mid-October, both 451s from April '04 FW1.15. I have OTA only. Due to shelf placement, I call them "top" and "bottom."

My bottom unit is set to record off analog (Letterman nightly, Ebert weekly). I haven't tested my unit rigorously, but the image is not great, probably the Y/C problem you're talking about, Jan. I always just figured the analog tuner in the unit wasn't great (I had a Sammy T-165 for a short while that was awful on analog). Reading your posts over the last couple months I became concerned that I would have a problem if I ever wanted to record VHS to the 3410 (some old tapes I'd like to edit). I still haven't had time to try it. But perhaps it is only a tuner issue as you have recently determined.

My top unit, set to record only digital broadcasts works pretty much glich-free, except for the occassional loss of picture when it gets hot. My Sony stand affords little space for air circulation. But powering off and back on fixes the problem ( I know I could add a fan, but the problem is not big enough...at least not now).

It's the bottom unit that acts quirky more often:

- It tends to bog down some point after 30+ programs on the drive. Start-up for scheduled recordings takes too long and the unit shuts off without recording the program. Also, "smart skip" ceases to function. I've learned that I just need to dump stuff from the drive so it doesn't pile up. ( I know I could just leave the unit on.) This is annoying, since the drive has plenty of remaining recording space, but it's obviously a software problem.

- The past 2 weeks, weekly scheduled "Ebert" does not stop recording. I stop it manually, and then TV Guide won't come up. If I power down and power up again I get the ever-popular "Invalid channel for AV1, AV2...etc." warning, but unplugging for 5 seconds puts it right. This used to occur more frequently in my "early days" with the drives for some reason.

So, where a model change had apparently solved UncD2000's "Invalid channel..." problem experienced with 351s, my 451s show no improvement there.

BTW, even with all the issues with the 3410, I love having them. I got 2 so I could watch one HD show and record another at the same time, and I got a deal that was too good to pass up. How else could I watch, timeshift and record HD? It still beats the pants off the best DVD players I've tested!

Jan, I'm really close to you if you ever want to run comparisons.

-Neal

Is there any way of sending email addresses withou having it be public?
I would like to show you and see if you see what I see. etc...

Jan

If you are a member of www.dslreports.com, I can send you an IM via that..... ???

Originally posted by nealgrof


... Also, "smart skip" ceases to function. I've learned that I just need to dump stuff from the drive so it doesn't pile up.


Your comment about "smart skip" rings a bell...my unit seemed to work right after I got the unit last month, but now the skip seems worthless and I just use the fast forward....maybe I should empty the drive and see what happens!!!

Based in part on what I've heard in this thread (and on my experience with a Samsung 165), I purchased it last month with a 3-year warranty as part of the package...

I think it's time I tried some of the features I haven't used yet, like tranferring saved programs to the JVC 30k I have. (I bought that, along with my Samsung 165 in 2003 so I could recorded HD programs for later viewing...)

Anybody know if the 3410 will play programs that I record with the Samsung165/JVC30k combo?

Thanks - Tony

Originally posted by avnstf
Your comment about "smart skip" rings a bell...my unit seemed to work right after I got the unit last month, but now the skip seems worthless and I just use the fast forward....maybe I should empty the drive and see what happens!!!
Sorry, but I didn't mean to get your hopes up. "Smart Skip" is not so smart, even when it's working properly. I use it with mixed results. When the drive had more than 30 programs (maybe it was ~35) it stopped working entirely. When I pushed the Smart Skip up-arrow, nothing happened at all.

Good luck.:)

Originally posted by Jan J
Is there any way of sending email addresses withou having it be public?
I would like to show you and see if you see what I see. etc...

Jan

If you are a member of www.dslreports.com, I can send you an IM via that..... ??? Just use the PM (Private Message) function here.

Thanks... PM was staring me right in the face!!! (Kinda like video input! :) )

Originally posted by nealgrof
Just to chime in on the subject...

First off, I have read every post in this thread.

I have two 3410s that I've been running since mid-October, both 451s from April '04 FW1.15. I have OTA only. Due to shelf placement, I call them "top" and "bottom."

My bottom unit is set to record off analog (Letterman nightly, Ebert weekly). I haven't tested my unit rigorously, but the image is not great, probably the Y/C problem you're talking about, Jan. I always just figured the analog tuner in the unit wasn't great (I had a Sammy T-165 for a short while that was awful on analog). Reading your posts over the last couple months I became concerned that I would have a problem if I ever wanted to record VHS to the 3410 (some old tapes I'd like to edit). I still haven't had time to try it. But perhaps it is only a tuner issue as you have recently determined.

My top unit, set to record only digital broadcasts works pretty much glich-free, except for the occassional loss of picture when it gets hot. My Sony stand affords little space for air circulation. But powering off and back on fixes the problem ( I know I could add a fan, but the problem is not big enough...at least not now).

It's the bottom unit that acts quirky more often:

- It tends to bog down some point after 30+ programs on the drive. Start-up for scheduled recordings takes too long and the unit shuts off without recording the program. Also, "smart skip" ceases to function. I've learned that I just need to dump stuff from the drive so it doesn't pile up. ( I know I could just leave the unit on.) This is annoying, since the drive has plenty of remaining recording space, but it's obviously a software problem.

- The past 2 weeks, weekly scheduled "Ebert" does not stop recording. I stop it manually, and then TV Guide won't come up. If I power down and power up again I get the ever-popular "Invalid channel for AV1, AV2...etc." warning, but unplugging for 5 seconds puts it right. This used to occur more frequently in my "early days" with the drives for some reason.

So, where a model change had apparently solved UncD2000's "Invalid channel..." problem experienced with 351s, my 451s show no improvement there.

BTW, even with all the issues with the 3410, I love having them. I got 2 so I could watch one HD show and record another at the same time, and I got a deal that was too good to pass up. How else could I watch, timeshift and record HD? It still beats the pants off the best DVD players I've tested!

Jan, I'm really close to you if you ever want to run comparisons.

-Neal

You have a temperature problem, plain and simple. Cool it down adequately and it will work perfectly. As far as recording analog programming, if you put **** in you get it out the other end. The analog signal must be attenuated if you live in a strong signal area. I have had as much experience and as many hedaches as anyone in here so listen to what I say. Ventilate nd it will reciprocate your love with a fine picture and glitch free performance.

Originally posted by Jan J
Do you Honestly think that a Luminance/Chromanince timing error is acceptable?

If you answer Yes, How about uncontrollable vertical roll?

How about Hum in the audio?

Don't be silly!!! This is a BASIC FLAW!!! If you can put up with it, be my guest to sit back and accept a sub-standard product!!!!
The 3410 was engineered at least two years ago now, and if it's a design flaw they're not going to reengineer it at this point.

If it's something that can be fixed in firmware, sure, otherwise it won't be fixed until the next generation of HD DVRs is released; to believe otherwise is to be ignorant of the cost realities of consumer electronics products.

This doesn't mean that LG isn't a good company and doesn't have good products, just that they're not going to engineer and release a fix for a two year-old product to fix a Y/C timing error that 99% of purchasers will never notice.

A good comparison is the MPEG bug found on DVD players a few years back; most newer players have the issue fixed, but it's not like companies offered fixes for the bug in the players that were on the shelf at the time...

<A good comparison is the MPEG bug found on DVD players>

I bought one of those $1,500.00 DVD players from Pioneer, DV-09, that will not play DVD-R or Rw's or anything but prerecorded DVD's and Cd's. Even CD-R's and RW's will not play. Pisses me off. Buyer beware!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by MrHifi
<A good comparison is the MPEG bug found on DVD players>

I bought one of those $1,500.00 DVD players from Pioneer, DV-09, that will not play DVD-R or Rw's or anything but prerecorded DVD's and Cd's. Even CD-R's and RW's will not play. Pisses me off. Buyer beware!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, the dangers of being an early adopter.

The only time most companies will update a product is just after it is released while the engineering team is still together. The one exception seems to be higher end companies (like Denon and Meridian) who sometimes will update even old DVD players if they won't play a particular title. This is, of course, a firmware upgrade not a new laser assembly replacement. Anyway, I'm going way off subject (sorry)...

I now have a 2nd unit here.. It's the unit I tested at work, (salesman doesn't know of the posts I made... He says it's my replacement....
I'm going to try to be very fair in this test.
Firmware is same.
Serial number is 504 units earlier than mine.

My origional unit is using DVI (Native) to Mits HDMI in .
Replacement unit is using YUV (Native) to Mits YUV in.

Therefore Origional unit is upconverting 480i to 480P, and
Replacement unit is outputing 480i.

I'm going to borrow a DVI/HDMI from salesguy Thurs soas to try both on DVI.
I'm also going to connect origional unit to YUV to try both on YUV.

Made the following recordings on both 3410a's.....

A composite (AV1 input) recording of Y/C timing pattern off DVD (Because it was composite the High Frequencies were all rolled off. EE & playback of recordings looks good! Does not show any timing errors, on either unit. That's good.

A composite (AV1 input) recording of Leitch Generator 1T2T12T test signal. EE & playback of recordings on both units look good.

A composite (AV1 input) recording of video output of Mitsubishi 62525 receiving QVC in 480i. There was a group of ladies modeling clothes with Character Generators up for long periods of time. The background was in a contrasting color compared to the suits the ladies were wearing.
I would say the recordings on both units looked good. Still no Lum/Chromanance timing errors.

Then I switched each 3410a to receive channel 20-0 (Where 480i QVC resides on our cable system), and went into record on both units. The same ladies were still modeling the same suits. During this recording, the EE image on the Mits screen showed color fringing. For example, the blue suits they were wearing had blue showing on the left side, off the suit image, mixing with the background screen (a orange color wash on the sweep of the set).... On the right side of the suits, there was orange color from the background of the set on the dark part of the suit.
Examination of the large white Character Generator boxes revealed much the same thing: On the right side, there was an orange fringing from the orange background on top of the White Character Generated box, and on the left side there was a vertical grey area where the (non-color) of the White CG Box was applied to the orange background. This was repeated on other color areas, most easily seen on vertical transitions.
You've in the past heard me harping on Y/C (Luminance/Chromanance) timing errors... I'm claiming I'm seeing the Chromanance occurring to the LEFT of the Luminance.. and therefore the color fringing on the vertical transitions of dis-simelar colors.
The bigger the display, the easier it is to see this... I'm staring at a 62" DLP, and can display other sources (including a SVHS deck) that doesn't have this problem.

Now I have two 3410a's: (my origional, and the 'replacement'), and I'm seeing the same thing on both of them!

Since the 480i video I feed into this unit does not appear to show this problem, I'm therefore saying that the problem exists at the output of the tuner, prior to recording on the hard drive.

Since I use DVI output, any 480i recording gets up-converted to 480P for output in Native.
Since I used YUV output on 'replacement' unit, any 480i recording remains 480i for output in Native.
Based upon these two statements, it is NOT the up-converter for DVI, and since it is NOT appearing on 480i video input recordings, and it is doing the same thing on 2 units (I'm hoping to test another later this week), I'm suggesting that there is something wrong with the 480i tuner output.
It still appears to me to be a Luminance/Chromanance timing error.. (how Luma and chroma could get out of time at the tuner output is beyond me, but that's what I'm seeing!

DAMN!!! Really!! You don't know how much I wanted this replacement machine to look good!!

Hi...I posted a question elsewhere ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5180848#post5180848) regarding how the TV Guide info worked for programs, like "lost" tomorrow on ABC, that end 1 minute AFTER 9:00 PM, or like Alias which follows and runs from 9:01 to 10:02. As noted in that post, if you try to record these 2 programs on the 3410A by pushing the record button in the TV Guide info, the 3410A breaks before the end of Lost and misses the end of Alias, apparently because the Guide info has these programs beginning and ending right on the hour.

Why is this info wrong??? Other sources of info, like our local newspaper, have the times right, and Titan-tv has the end line shifted to indicate that these programs run past the hour...

How to cope with it...I know we can do things manually, but that has other problems...

Thanks -Tony

Originally posted by MrHifi
<A good comparison is the MPEG bug found on DVD players>

I bought one of those $1,500.00 DVD players from Pioneer, DV-09, that will not play DVD-R or Rw's or anything but prerecorded DVD's and Cd's. Even CD-R's and RW's will not play. Pisses me off. Buyer beware!!!!!!!!!!! Well, first of all, the DV-09 was never advertised as being able to read those formats; in fact nothing but prerecorded discs existed when the DV-09 was released.

However, I too own a DV-09 and though I haven't tried a CD-R, it reads DVD-Rs and DVD+Rs just fine for me, but I understand that its ability to so may vary from unit to unit...

Tony--if you have both Lost and Alias set to record once individually (or weekly) through the basic TV Guide on the 3410A, the very end of Lost will show up occasionally on the beginning of Alias and occasionally the end of Alias gets clipped. It's happened to me, too. Last week's Alias via the LG was clipped. Tonight's Lost is showing up in the LG guide as 8:00-9:05 and Alias as 9:05-10:00. Just to be safe I'd set Alias to end a few minutes late. To make the most direct comparison, Tivo did not clip the end of last week's Alias ep--Tivo caught last week's Alias at 1:01 beginning at 9:01PM. I'm not sure why there is this discrepancy between the data. It probably has to do with how the LG loads its data, I wouldn't be surprised if it is more rudimentary and once its loaded I bet its not updated--meaning the LG fills guide data forward only.

But, I think it should be stressed that at least with the 3410A, unlike Tivo, we do have the option, should we be so motivated, to ignore the guide and set manual record start and end times precisely to the minute via the VCR Plus+ button--I have never tried using actual VCR Plus+ codes, but just entering date/time/channel manually has been trouble-free for me. Have you tried entering codes for VCR Plus with the LG? I wonder if they'd work for you and "catch" the timing of these two shows correctly when the on-screen guide data might not, and might not have been updated?

I'm lucky to get good stable guide data and don't seem to have a finicky 3410A--so setting manual recordings works flawlessly for me, and that's how I do Lost. (I also did Alias that way for a few eps, but I think Alias jumped the shark a long time ago, which I realize is a subject for another forum.) If this is happening to you, and you want to get all of Lost AND Alias on the LG and/or more-easily-archive (dub) perfect HD copies of either show to DVHS with the commercials edited out, I'm afraid your best protection is to do them individually and manually--or record the 2+ hours straight through manually, edit the commercials out, then start/stop the dub to DVHS at the right times.

This "manual-to-the-minute-start-and-finish" is one of the good things the LG allows you to do that a standalone Tivo does not, beside the whole being able to record HD thing of course.

With a standalone Series 2 Tivo, with supposedly vastly superior software and user interface, you have two main options recording a show: 1) you can set it to start recording a specific program that appears in the guide 1 to 5 mins early (so, say, Lost at 7:58) but NOT to start later (say at 8:02) and you can "pad" this recording to end 1, 2 or 5 mins longer (at 9:02 say) but not earlier (8:59)...the 3410A allows this very same thing--start early and/or end late...OR...2) you can manually "record by time/channel" instead with the Tivo, which the LG can also do, BUT, with the Tivo you can only adjust these start/end times in 5 min increments, a source of much chagrin in the Tivo user community. Tivo, I believe, has always picked up both Alias and Lost as individual season passes just fine and just to be safe, a Tivo user who wanted both Lost and Alias could set a Season Pass of Lost/Alias as one long repeating 2:05 manual recording. But you're screwed with a Tivo if, after prioritizing it to record Lost running to 9:01 or 9:02 one week, you tried to set it to record a 9PM show on another channel instead of Alias--say West Wing or American Idol--that would get kicked out as a conflict and the best you can do is set it to begin a manual at 9:05--clipping the beginning of that show. Once Lost, or any show, runs past 9:00 to 9:01, there's no way to select a Tivo to begin a new recording at that point, say at 9:01 or 9:02. ABC knows this. This is a limitation of Tivo software and though we LG 3410A owners could set a manual recording to begin at 9:01, it's still a source of frustration for us LG owners--but the proximate cause of our frustration is really ABC.

I blame networks completely for this, it's manipulative, a controlling stunt, and I vent no frustration toward the various guide data services or the hardware manufacturers. But at least the LG puts more flexibility in our hands, we can begin and end a recording down to the minute, either way.

What puzzles me about this is: I think that when I just use the bottons on the guide data to record Lost and Alias sequentially that the recording turns off and on at 9:00 precisely and ENDS close to 10:00...(The LG seems to start a minute early and end a minute after the last scheduled time.) This means the Guide data has these programs as, for example, 9:00 - 10:00 for Alias. Yet my newspaper has the time (apparently CORRECTLY) as 9:01 to 10:02. Granted ABC is the ULTIMATE cause of this discrepancy, but the Guide data or the LG is the PROXIMATE cause of the problem...so you think the Guide data may not be updated?

DOes that make sense to others? In any case, I believe that since Alias moved to Wednesday, and since the beginning of Lost, the times have been unchanged, with ABC doing its strongarm bit ever since then. So the Guide data in the LG should be correct if it was EVER correct in the guide data transmitted from our local station...

Make sense?

Even if the guide start and end times for ABC were correct, ABC tacks the shows together without break. Desperate Housewives credits end, and Boston Legal begins immediately. I once recorded Raymond and 2.5 Men using the Guide; The end of Raymond was tacked onto the beginning of "Men," but the first few seconds of the Raymond tag were chopped off. No, I was not happy.

This is why I just set times manually--just give me the full hour for the 2 CBS shows, or 2 hours for Housewives and Boston Legal. I camp happily.

A friend of mine who Tivos gave up Lost because he was p***ed at ABC for their antics.:p

I can confirm Jan's observations of Y/C delay from the analog tuner.

I recorded Letterman off 2-0 Tuesday night at Best quality. Sure enough,
the kid scientists had a yellow ball that threw a yellow glow to the
left, and a red sweatshirt that threw a red glow to the left. Well,
really more like to the northwest of the image. I have a 50" screen and
the "glow" seems almost an inch wide. Pretty bad.

That is not Y/C timing. Probably ghosting caused lags. Try a source like a DVD player feeding a Ch.3 output signal. That will confirm or negate the Y/C issue. I do not see it on mine.

I would love to find out it is due to anything other than the 3410a, but it isn't...

I can take the cable feed, and go directly into the Mitsubishi 62525, and it doesn't see the problem. I can go directly into the JVC SVHS decks we have, without a problem... I can go directly into a $50.00 Sam's club VHS deck, and it doesn't see the problem.

But, I go into either of the 3410a's I presently have, and the problem is instantly visable...

Furthermore..... I can take the composite video output of the Mitsubishi 62525, and feed that into the video input of EITHER 3410a......

And the recording it makes is flawless....
But!! Record the same channel that the Mitsubishi just decoded fine off the 3410a's tuner's....
It looks pretty poor!!! Both EE & recordings BOTH OF THEM. With same (Current) firmware, MFG in June of 2004.... within 504 serial numbers of each other!

I've been calling the contacts at LG 3 times today, and 2 days ago I invited them over to see the problem.... They are not returning my calls.

This is a serious problem.... Doesn't make sense why a Y/C timing error should be evident at tuner output, but it is....

I'm open for suggestions.... At this point I'm waiting for LG for direction!

first of all, it is not a "serious' problem. this is TV not cancer. The LG's front end is very sensitive. I needed attenuators or it would saturate and look awful. I suspect some of the problem may be due to that over sensitive front end. Besides, why aren't you watching digital feeds? That is what it was designed for. Analog is an afterthought I'll bet. I rarely watch any NTSC programs. When I do, it is on recordings off my 3 SVHS decks. The LG is used to record HD when available the SD Digital programming. The only analog recording has been from my Motorola 922 receiving analog first generation Austin City Limit broadcasts. They looked superb. These are now in HD so I do not record any SD any more.

Originally posted by Jan J
I've been calling the contacts at LG 3 times today, and 2 days ago I invited them over to see the problem.... They are not returning my calls.

This is a serious problem.... Doesn't make sense why a Y/C timing error should be evident at tuner output, but it is....

I'm open for suggestions.... At this point I'm waiting for LG for direction!

My experience with LG is that the person you talk to on the phone is required to attempt to solve the problem. That sounds great, but the implementation can be lousy. If the person is consciencious and knowledgible they will talk to the right people in LG and get back to you with an answer.

The bad side to that is there almost seems to be a penalty for transfering a call or directing a caller/complainer to another person. So, if you get the wrong person the result is that you don't hear back. I think this is why email worked better since the email can be easily forwarded. This is, of course, just my theory.

Mr. HiFi is correct in that most of us don't consider this a serious issue because it is coming in on the analog inputs. I can't even timer record from the analog inputs so they have been useless to me since I got the LG LST-3410a. Yes, it is a flaw but for my use it isn't an issue.

As far as hearing back from LG, once again I say, "good luck". Suggest you try someone else at LG. BTW, emailing the CEO didn't work for me with LG but you might try some of the PR people - they are usual receptive to customer complaints if explained well and rationally.

Originally posted by MrHifi
first of all, it is not a "serious' problem. this is TV not cancer. The LG's front end is very sensitive. I needed attenuators or it would saturate and look awful. I suspect some of the problem may be due to that over sensitive front end. Besides, why aren't you watching digital feeds? That is what it was designed for. Analog is an afterthought I'll bet. I rarely watch any NTSC programs. When I do, it is on recordings off my 3 SVHS decks. The LG is used to record HD when available the SD Digital programming. The only analog recording has been from my Motorola 922 receiving analog first generation Austin City Limit broadcasts. They looked superb. These are now in HD so I do not record any SD any more.

IT IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM!! That's what I've been saying all along!!!

I'm recording SD Feeds because that is what is WANTED to be recorded!!

YOU'RE POST SOUNDS LIKE A COP OUT!!!

This is a serious problem, and it makes that portion of the unit un-useable, and needs to be addressed!

I agree with you, the HD portion is pretty flawless, but the SD portion should have been flawless from the GET-GO! And ISN'T!

Calls to LG yesterday went un-answered....

I need direction from the company on a repair....

By the way, I've been in verbal contact with LG managers.

Jan J,

Many of us in this discussion have battled with LG over serious issues. Issues like total failure, smoke, HD failure and the ever present guide issues. Measured against these kinds of problems, your difficulties seem small.

JanJ,
Why don't you just get a refund if you aren't happy?

Dave

Can the 1034 display PSIP info and time? I have not been able to get it to do this.

It is being looked at in their lab.

If you believe that they are spending time on this in their lab, all I have to ask is if you would like to buy a beautiful tract of swampland i have for sale. This lab business is what they used to say when they wanted to get rid of me. Their "lab" is in Korea. I don' think so....

You may not have contacts, but I do!

I discussed this with an engineer in their lab today... That's why I posted it...

He thinks it is a mis-timing in a digital matrix, since the video input is not affected.

He's also checking into one other senerio that he brought up...

It isn't scheduled to hit the bench till next week, as the company has next monday off as a holiday...

Originally posted by Jan J
You may not have contacts, but I do!

...

Jan, this is indeed good news. Since you have an LG contact, could you also please ask why AV1 and AV2 are not available for timer recordings? Technically this would seem to be straightforward and not violate any specs. So, could you please ask? Also, if you could find out whether any future firmware updates are planned would also be appreciated!

Thanks!

Would you also find out if they are going to address the chattering issue and the occasional rquirement for a total reboot?

First & foremost -- Picture quality...
Once that is determined.... If he asks for other comments, I'll pass them along...

BUT.. Picture Quality comes first!

If you will post clear and concise symptoms, including repetitiveness of re-occurance, hopefully with examples, once my issue is settled, if he is receptive, I'll pass them along...

I'm not expected to hear from him till (I'm guessing) end of next week.

I don't know about you, but we keep a log of problems and dates, with notes on what was being done just prior to the issue that was logged. This way, we have a record of things that is easy to refer to in the future.

Has anyone seen this problem?

I was changing channels when the unit froze and would not let me change the channel. It would not let me do anything else either, including turning it off--I had to unplug it from the AC. After it was plugged back in, the TV guide is now completely empty. This is the first time I have seen anything like this. Although it would occassionally freeze, I have never lost the entire contents of the TV guide before.

Also, I now cannot set the time and date. The menu comes up but I cannot enter the setting menu to change anything.

TIA for any info.

kkoenning,

Unplug the unit for about an hour. If that doesn't do it, unplug it overnight.

How long have you had this unit? This can be a one-time glitch, or maybe once every few months, and you'll be OK. But some 3410A's were so bad and this happened so often that they had to be exchanged.

Jan J,

I'm sure you were not looking for a list of other people's troubles to dump on your LG contact. (The list could get VERY long.) But, just in case :D --- check out this weirdness regarding recording and playback of cable to D-VHS:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4185996#post4185996

I've settled for this because my unit (the 2nd) is 98% reliable in every other respect.

Wish I knew how you got to an actual engineer. Back when I was in the midst of troubles with my first 3410A, I spent many an hour on the phone with LG customer service. Although some folks were more helpful than others and I managed to work my way up the chain a bit, NEVER could I talk with a real manager or engineer. Requests to do so were met with flat refusals, even though I had detailed documentation of every problem and every useless CSR conversation that should have justified reaching an upper level.

Heck, I recently reached the very highest level of Microsoft support regarding a Windows XP flaw. But LG? No!

PhillyC,

I unplugged it for a longer period--maybe 20 minutes and the guide came back.

I have had this unit for a little more than a year. It has been necessary to unplug it (frozen) many times--varying from once a month to twice a day--lately something like once or twice a week. There doesn't seem to be any specific pattern.

Just wish another manufacturer made a product like this.

My current problem is that they have had my returned 2nd unit for over 2 weeks. They promised to send a new 2004 unit back, but so far not even a tentative shipping date. I'm a bit tired of allowing another "7 to 10 business days." Fortunately my #1 unit is functioning perfectly, and my DVD recorder is working overtime until #2 unit gets back.

Guess we shouldn't expect too much from an outfit called Luckey Goldstar.

Originally posted by kkoenning
PhillyC,

I unplugged it for a longer period--maybe 20 minutes and the guide came back.

I have had this unit for a little more than a year. It has been necessary to unplug it (frozen) many times--varying from once a month to twice a day--lately something like once or twice a week. There doesn't seem to be any specific pattern.

Just wish another manufacturer made a product like this.

That sounds like my first unit. It was pretty good most of the time at first, then progressively got worse until I had to exchange it. I know you don't want to play "LG roulette", but you might be better off exchanging it. It's probably no longer under warranty, but maybe you can twist some arms at LG by pointing out the 3410A's long and storied history. They ARE aware of this thread, BTW.

They have been known to extend a warranty. They added 6 months to mine.

Philly,

This chattering problem is getting a lot worse. What is the largest HD I can install?

I don't know if it is the biggest, but I do know that you can stick on two 300 gigabyte Maxtors. Just hitch a computer ribbon center tap to the motherboard and attach a 300 gigg 5400 rpm MAxtor on each end. The power supply from the board can be switched to whichever maxtor youwant to use(while off I suggest). Just use a double pole double throw on the color coded wires from the motherboard and switch these supplies to either maxtor. The black wires being grounds can remain attached. Although they will both fit inside, I think one should be outside toprevent overheating.

Originally posted by Bill Shenefelt
I don't know if it is the biggest, but I do know that you can stick on two 300 gigabyte Maxtors. Just hitch a computer ribbon center tap to the motherboard and attach a 300 gigg 5400 rpm MAxtor on each end. The power supply from the board can be switched to whichever maxtor youwant to use(while off I suggest). Just use a double pole double throw on the color coded wires from the motherboard and switch these supplies to either maxtor. The black wires being grounds can remain attached. Although they will both fit inside, I think one should be outside toprevent overheating.

Could you post a detailed step-by-step process for your installation method and component placement? Also if you have part numbers and a recommend source please let me know, I am interested in this setup.

Thanks,
James

Originally posted by MrHifi
Philly,

This chattering problem is getting a lot worse. What is the largest HD I can install?

For a drive to drive swap, I know a 300MB will work. My limitation with a 250MB has been the number of programs that can be recorded (60) rather than drive space. I'm using a 7200 rpm drive and don't have any heat issues.

I could see how a faster transfer time *might* increase the number of programs that can be recorded since the number of program available is a function of booting within the timeout timer limits. If the hard drive isn't initalized within the factory spec time, then no recording takes place. The more items on the hard drive, the longer it takes to boot.

S0 Alk what hard drive do you recommend.?

MrHiFi,

alk3997 said it all about boot times.

My 300GB Maxtor QuikView 5400 RPM is still flawless and quiet. Others are using faster drives, but why take a chance with these sensitive units?

Originally posted by MrHifi
S0 Alk what hard drive do you recommend.?

I'm using a Western Digital in the LST3410a. However I'm also using a Seagate 300GB in a different receiver. Both have been running fine. I haven't tried a Maxtor in PVR-type box but others have reported good response times.

The bottom line for me is that I don't have a large enough sample of hard drives to be able to give you a firm recommendation. About the only thing I can say is that neither the 250GB WD or the 300G Seagate have been a problem.

I ordered the Maxtor 300 GB QV. Thanks guys. This chattering has cost me half a dozen shows. Let's hope it will work well now.

When I installed my Maxtor I first tried it just electrically attached, not mounted. I did have to slip the lid onto the LG to cut out interference, but holding it in my hand with the ribbon under the lid, I could not even feel it, much less hear it running. If you had a balance problem, my maxtor sure does not. I have read problems with ehat buildup somaybe you ought to see what air circulation you have available and possibly add a boxer fan outside the chassis to help a bit.

Bill,

The chattering is occurring on the original HD. I have not replaced the original drive. I've ordered the Maxtor QV 3 times and each time I receive a notice that it is out of stock. Are you able to take advantage of all 300 GB's?

Guys,

I can not find the 300 GB Maxtor QV. I called Maxtor and they said there is a difference between the QV and non QV version but frankly it was a Tech and he wanted to show me how much he knew. I'm not sure whether they are different or not. If anyone sees a Maxtor 5400 QV 30 GB ATA 133 please let me know ASASp.

Art,

http://www.pcconnection.com/ProductDetail?sku=5192208&SourceID=k15506

try this link, they have it available. I got mine from Random Source for about $20 cheaper but now they only are showing a 20 pack of them, you may want to check them out too in case I missed the single units.
I've had mine in for over 2 months and recording about 12 hours a week with no problems. This is so much easier on the 3410a than dumping to the JVC 30K and trying to keep all the timeshifted stuff in sequence. Good luck
joe

I just received the following...

It was a pleasure making your acquaintance on the phone last Friday. I have been able to duplicate what you are seeing, which is essentially, the luminance delayed from the chrome when you are input analog/SD OFF-Air or cable. In actuality, the Chrome is leading the luma on the SD composites input as well, but it is marginally acceptable. At least on the unit which I have.

Thus, given these circumstances, it is most likely that the saw filter in the tuner is optimized for a flatter response which is required when receiving digital signals and thus results in a great delay between Luma and Chroma in the analog domain. I will forward these findings to our engineering staff, but unfortunately there are no quick fixes here. Your unit may be an extreme case and I would be glad to look at it if you would like. At this point am unsure of the cure.

I Will keep you posted as to engineerings findings.

my answer:

Thank you very much for your assistance... and confirmation as to the location of the problem... As you know, I've received, (And returned) a replacement unit, as it had the same identical problem. I've also been communicating with another user in Chicago, who has two of these units, and is encountering the same thing, on both of his units. I'm sorry that there is no fix for this, as it makes a great product a little less great, but it is a comforting that you see the same thing I do...

It is unfortunate that the tuner in a $50.00 VHS deck from WallMart can out-preform the tuner in a 3410a, but I am thankful that you explained the problem to me, and also to the engineers that develop the product.

I am hoping that as, if, and when a revised product is developed, that this problem will be solved, this error will be taken into consideration, and fixed. No one likes to see a flaw, no matter how insignificant. The fewer flaws, the fewer complaints!

Thank you for your assistance!!

Thanks for your diligence, Jan. I have been following your reports. A fix would be great, but I know better than to get my hopes up.

Actually, this isn't a bad thing... We've got them to admidt a problem...

By doing that, they now understand that us 'consumers' aren't apt to accept substandard products.

If we make them realize a flaw, and rub their nose in it.... They will FIX that problem in order to have us go away!!!

"The fewer flaws, the fewer complaints!"

I didn't even approach them on the digital audio timing of SD recordings!
(Digital audio is out of sync with SD video compared to analog audio).

I saw a problem I recognized, and complained about it.... and pushed the issue.... until it got to the lab. If they didn't find the location of the problem in this product, do you think it would have made it to the NEXT product?

It takes People who BITCH (Like me) to force the "Standard" of a product, upwards... Face it... If the next generation of product is head and shoulders above this generation of product..... It will be a better product!!!

Yeah, I'm a pain in their side.... I will go away with "perfection".
Like I said....

"The fewer flaws, the fewer complaints!"

Congratulations Jan!!!!!!!!!
I believe the most significant thing in the note to you is that

"...the saw filter in the tuner is optimized for a flatter response which is required when receiving digital signals and thus results in a great delay between Luma and Chroma in the analog domain..."

Whether you got to the "lab" or not I don't know. Sounds like a good PR guy knew what to say and how to treat a customer. I commend you for your diligence but the idea of "rubbing a manufacturers nose in it" is something you may believe but I do not. I do believe LG has been very responsive to all of us in the face of a product release that was premature and fraught with problems. They have helped us for the most part and as a result the knowledgeable people in here feel good about LG products and would buy anothe PVR when available.

BTW...
Compromises of this kind are not uncommon and since this is primarily an HD PVR, I'm glad they chose to make this compromise because the HD picture is second to none.

Hey Art; Turn on your private messaages. I have been sending you info on the MAaxtor to no avail apparently

Bill,

I've been trying to turn them on for some time. Please give me some direction.

I Agree with you 100% MrHifi!!
(on the video input signal) I was unable to find a visable Y/C error on the 62" display here, but I did not scope the output with modulated 12T signal.
The HD picture and image is pretty damn great!

Granted, compromises are made in every product, but if a flaw is visable, it is but a matter of time till someone points it out, and rubs their nose in it..

I'm guessing that a dual IF path would be necessary.... One for HD IF bandwidth (SAW filters, which Zenith developed years ago, are used in IF paths, in between tuner, and video/audio detector) and another for SD IF.

Yeah, I'm a chronic complainer about quality... but I was correct in what I saw, and maybe it will be fixed in next generation product!!!

No, I got to the lab... I guarantee you!

Follow up to my response:

Thanks Jan,

I will see your response falls into the appropriate hands! Please note, my findings are based on a few quick tests and in the end may not be the absolute cause. I will let the product engineers be the judges following their investigation. They have a more intimate working knowledge of the product.

I hope to have a resolution for you in the not to distant future, and would like to thank you for bringing this problem to our attention. It is our goal to bring the best possible product to market and meet our customers expectations and specifications in every way possible!

Will be in touch!

MrHiFi,

If you are interested, it appears that eCost has the 250 Gig version of the Maxtor QV drive available. Here:

http://www.ecost.com/ecost/shop/detail.asp?dpno=455395&store=ecost&source=ECOSTDEAL&adcampaign=email,ECOSTDEAL

Art, not sure how you do that, but here is what I sent to you. I bought a maxtor, 300 gig "non QV" drive from Buy.com. After I ordered it I learned of the QV suffix. I cancelled(I thought) the order and ordered the one with the QV suffix. I then found that the "non QV drive was a closeout and I could not cancell. I called Maxtor to see if the "non QV" would work since it seemed the specs were the same. The rep told me that they were but the "QV" was marketed for video drives and either actually worked. The drives arrived. One in a box with no QV and the other with the QV suffix. Inside BOTH drives were marked o the drive as QV. I thought about returning the "QV drive since it was not a "closeout" but decided to just keep them both. Go to the buy.com site. Search for Maxtor. Go to the bottom of the page and it shows the "non QV" drive as a closeout. I sent the message as personalsince I gave the price on buy.com and this forum is not to be used that way, but I think it is ok for private messages. I think if you go to your profile you can change it to accept private messages.

I installed a WD 2500JB drive. It works great; amazingly quiet. The only problem is that if you have too many programs recorded it takes maybe 2 minutes to initialize the drive when powering up. When this happens, the recorder can miss recordings since it typically starts up 1 minute before program start and will not be ready in time. In my experience, more than about 50 recordings will start causing problems.

Hardtimes,

I am concerned with what you report. I am interested in filling the Hard Drive sometimes with HD material and some SD material sent via the Digital channels. I suspect in a week i might record a many as 28 separate programs, most of which would be HD. This might eat up 100+ hours of HD space. Bill and Philly report perfect operation with their Maxtor 30 GB QV drives. These are made specifically to use in PVR's. From their comments I assume they have no problems of any kind using the QV drives. Is your drivespecifically intended for this type of use? The Maxtor tech I spoke to was quite emphatic about the fact that only QV drives are acceptable for use in PVR's and XBox's because of heat and access issues. They also mentioned that the QV units run quiter than the non QV versions. Somebody must have decided that this type of drive is appropriate because I have been unable to locate a QV drive anywhere.

Art,

The QV is great, but there is always the limitation of bootup time. I don't know for sure if the boot time is affected by the number of programs or the amount of disk space used or a combination of both.

When I filled up (almost) the 300 GB HDD for test purposes, it looked like I'd get just about 40 hours total. This was with all HD programs of varying resolution, most of which were one hour each. If I recall correctly, I had 37 programs/39 hours/1 hour remaining. At that time, the boot process took 45-50 seconds, just short enough to come in under the timer recording start time.

Thannks Philly,

Just ordered a QV 300. They claim that I'm #2 on the waiting list and they have 3 coming in on 3/1/05. $230.71 at Ecost. Let's hope they're telling the truth.

I have not more than half filled my 300 gig maxtor and so far have not missed any recordings due to the initialization. I doubt that this is a problem if you LEAVE IT ON. If you turn it off it must find and start the drive looking at the space available etc. If left on, it did this when turned on and will go right into recording.
Now as for QV versus non QV, I have a "non QV labeled box with a QV drive inside as packed by Maxtor. It seems it is the same drive, just changed what it is advertised for as to use. Maxtor told me that and when I got mine it still had a QV on it. Now whether or not they have a different drive they sometimes pack in the "non QV" box, I cannot say. Both have the same specs though. I bought one of each and there is no difference in drive size or label on the drive. SAME DRIVE! 5400 rpm, 300 gig ATA 133 with 2 meg memory.

Originally posted by MrHifi
Thannks Philly,

Just ordered a QV 300. They claim that I'm #2 on the waiting list and they have 3 coming in on 3/1/05. $230.71 at Ecost. Let's hope they're telling the truth.

Mr. HiFi, I placed an order for a QV 300 and I'm #3 on the back order list. I'll let you know when it arrives since we are in the same DC metropolitan area.

-James

I'll do the same.

Hi all... Just bought a 3410A about a week ago, and everything is working fine so far. This thread answered most all my questions (yes, I read all 117 pages of it!)

Only questions I have:

1) Is it neccesary to open up the unit and move the power cable away from the voltage regulator on the motherboad? Has this been ruled out as a source of the problems with this unit?

2) What is the latest thinking on heat? Should I install a fan? Has heat been ruled out as a major issue (vs. the guide data and general SW issues)? My unit is in an open cabinet, with plenty of space around it.

3 Has anyone compared PQ on DVI vs. RGB?

Originally posted by Dreamin
Hi all... Just bought a 3410A about a week ago, and everything is working fine so far. This thread answered most all my questions (yes, I read all 117 pages of it!)

Only questions I have:

1) Is it neccesary to open up the unit and move the power cable away from the voltage regulator on the motherboad? Has this been ruled out as a source of the problems with this unit?

2) What is the latest thinking on heat? Should I install a fan? Has heat been ruled out as a major issue (vs. the guide data and general SW issues)? My unit is in an open cabinet, with plenty of space around it.

3 Has anyone compared PQ on DVI vs. RGB?

I can only give you my observations (obviously). I'm sure you will get more opinions from other people...

1) No, the only way I'd recommend opening the case is if you were replacing the hard disk drive. At that point, moving and securing the cable takes about 30 seconds.

2) I've attached a fan. However, it very rarely starts. Every few months I check to make sure the thermal sensor is still good and it is. The LST-3410s just doesn't get hot enough to use it - particularly since I gave it its own shelf with plenty of air flow. To answer your question, I'd say unless you are noticing unusual behavior a fan is not necessary. If you do notice something unusual then a fan could be one troubleshooting step.

3) Sorry, I don't have a way to do this presently.

I agree with Alk. My third unit is a charm. I intended to install a fan but never did. It has not exhibited the temperature related phenomena present in the first two models I owned. I am curious to see how the larger HD works. I may move the regulator cable while I am in there.

Originally posted by Dreamin
3 Has anyone compared PQ on DVI vs. RGB?

I've compared DVI with component cables, and found the DVI to be noticeably poorer....a darker cast and - I would say - less color depth. This came as quite a shock to me, and I still don't understand it.

I noticed this when I got my 3410a unit, which I immediately hooked up to the DVI input on my Sony (CRT) HD tv. The result looked noticeably worse than what I was getting from my Samsung 165, connected with component cables. Si I took the component cables and connected those, too, to my new 3410a, and then simply switched the 3410a back and forth between the component and DVI outputs. I found with that setup also that the DVI was poorer. (I also then switched both cables to the samsung 165, and confirmed this was true there, too, as far as I could tell.

In one of the threads on this board, someone said that DVI is only 10 bit color...that would explain a lot of what I'm seeing, as far as color depth is concerned. 10 bit is pretty poor. On the other hand, it doesn't explain why there is, overall, a darker cast to the picture.

Tony

avnstf,
In the setup menu, there is a setting for lighter and darker. Have you checked that setting?

Dave

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
avnstf,
In the setup menu, there is a setting for lighter and darker. Have you checked that setting?

Dave

If you mean the color setting that comes up if you're using DVI...yes, I've tried that. Putting it on the supposedly higher quality setting made it worse....

I'm not sure if it is a color setting, but a brightness setting of lighter or darker.

Dave

yes...I should have been more precise....the standard setting was what I started with, and when I changed to the other setting, it got darker yet...wrong direction!

I believe you need to understand how most TV's operate. There are separate setup memories for diferent frequency and resolutions. Your Sony TV may be set up to accept the DVI output of a Sony piece of equipment. I have a Sony KDL-32XBR950 that has DVI inputs and component inputs. Sony makes a media center that interfaces with the screen. It looks great. if you try to output the LG directly to the screen it is dark and frankly looks terrible. I run the component input to the media box because it looks better. The DVI should not look better. I do not understand why some people believe that keeping the signal in digital will provide a better picture. My 120" image from a DWIN 3 gun Front Projector outperforms everything. I prefer to watch it always. I use the 3410A's RGBHV output and it is outstanding. i believe RGBHV always provides a more consistant signal.

Originally posted by MrHifi
I believe you need to understand how most TV's operate. There are separate setup memories for diferent frequency and resolutions. Your Sony TV may be set up to accept the DVI output of a Sony piece of equipment. I have a Sony KDL-32XBR950 that has DVI inputs and component inputs. Sony makes a media center that interfaces with the screen. It looks great. if you try to output the LG directly to the screen it is dark and frankly looks terrible. I run the component input to the media box because it looks better. The DVI should not look better. I do not understand why some people believe that keeping the signal in digital will provide a better picture. My 120" image from a DWIN 3 gun Front Projector outperforms everything. I prefer to watch it always. I use the 3410A's RGBHV output and it is outstanding. i believe RGBHV always provides a more consistant signal.

Well, here's why "some people believe that keeping the signal in digital will provide a better picture." As long as the information is kept in digital format, it should retain the information that originally went into the digital signal. Period.

In this respect, it OUGHT to be like a jpeg file from a digital camera...I can email the file to somebody, that person can transfer it with a diskette to somebody else, who can email it to a friend, etc...and if somebody in that chain sends what they have back to me, and I look at in my computer, it will look EXACTLY like my original jpeg file looked in my computer, because the file will in fact be identical.

At the point where the TV picture is rendered into a digital signal - such as the HD data from a high-definition TV camera - as long as the signal is processed from one set of digital data to another (such as the signal that is OTA) - it ought to retain the same picture and quality. Thus if your receiver decodes the signal, and outputs it as a DVI signal WITHOUT ANY INTERMEDIATE ANALOG PROCESSING, the picture ought to be the same. Of course, when it ultimately gets to the TV, THAT has to produce analog info for the picture tube, unless of course you have an intrinsically digital screen. But avoiding doing digital processing in the receiver IN PRINCIPLE ought to be better. Then the only analog devices are the camera that took the original picture (still or TV) and the device that displays it. The point of digital transmission is signal integrity, which is of course important if you have a high definition signal in which you are trying to maintain the original picture and quality.

Anyway, this is why in principle maintaining the info in digital form between the camera and the display can (and many of us think OUGHT to) be better. Of course, individual devices can screw this up in one way or another, but to me it means there is something wrong with the device. In any case it is simpler to maintain precise quality of information in a digital form than it is in analog form. So that's why I (and others) tend to be surprised when we don't find this is the case.

If in fact Sony is expecting a DVI signal that has undergone analog processing in the receiver, or elsewhere, that doesn't take advantage of this simplicity. And I would be very surprised if that were the case. But, of course, I am in fact surprised at what happens in my system when I use the DVI signal from my receiver(s). So go figure!

(By the way, Mr HIFI, I have no doubt that the way you have your system set up you get a good result...but if DVI straight to the TV doesn't give the best result, then it still seems that somebody must be doing something wrong - and I don't mean you or me - as explained above!)

Cheers - Tony

PS I am still hoping that someone butts in here who really understands DVI, HDMI, etc, as well as what receivers actually DO with the info that's going to go out the DVI output!

avnstf,

The point I tried to make which you either chose to ignore or failed to comprehend is that just because the signal is encoded and moved around via a digital bitstream vis a vis analog amplitude or frequency modulated signals does not guarantee a better picture. Go to a Wallmart and compare the $700.00 Sanyo HD TV to any Digital set that costs twice and sometimes even 3 times as much and you will see what I mean. Consumr reports recently affirmed the fact that CRT TV's deliver better picture quality.

In theory and in reality for the most part, digital transmission of video and audio provides a ghost and noise free signal when compared to FM modulated analog broadcasts. However, at the stage where the broadcast digital signal is either converted to analog or sent digitally to an LCD or plasma panel
much work needs to be done. Currently, picture quality is better in analog. My LCD Sony is superb at 1280x720 but all of us prefer the analog delivered signal of my crt front projector.

Originally posted by MrHifi
avnstf,

The point I tried to make which you either chose to ignore or failed to comprehend is that just because the signal is encoded and moved around via a digital bitstream vis a vis analog amplitude or frequency modulated signals does not guarantee a better picture. Go to a Wallmart and compare the $700.00 Sanyo HD TV to any Digital set that costs twice and sometimes even 3 times as much and you will see what I mean. Consumr reports recently affirmed the fact that CRT TV's deliver better picture quality.

In theory and in reality for the most part, digital transmission of video and audio provides a ghost and noise free signal when compared to FM modulated analog broadcasts. However, at the stage where the broadcast digital signal is either converted to analog or sent digitally to an LCD or plasma panel
much work needs to be done. Currently, picture quality is better in analog. My LCD Sony is superb at 1280x720 but all of us prefer the analog delivered signal of my crt front projector.

I agree entirely that picture quality is better in a CRT display, which is what I have.

However, I believe that a major advantage SHOULD be had by maintaining the signal in digital form BETWEEN the camera and the display device, simply because the digital info can be conveyed in EXACT form, something that an analog signal cannot do. That was my point....I am not ignoring the current advantage of a CRT display....but I still cannot understand HOW a DVI connection can be inferior to an analog connection. That's what I would like to understand, and - as I said - I'm hoping someone here can address that point.

Although I have tended to assume that the problem is in the receivers, it is of course POSSIBLE that my Sony CRT tv does a lousy job of converting the digital signal for use in the display, as compared with the conversion the RECEIVERS do to produce a signal for the ANALOG connections. Incredible if true...

I understand your point about the quality of displays...I hope you understand mine about the advantage to information in digital format...

Tony

i understand your point but disagree that just because it is in digital it is better. My LCD KDL-32XBR950 reconstructs the analog channels in such a way that my wife can not distinguish between the zoomed 16x9 image of a PBS HD program broadcast over the digital non HD feed and the same program broadcast over the HD feed. Try watching West Wing both ways. on my set you can hardly tell the difference. Given that this does occur, the differences between analog and digital transmission are somewhat obscured for me.

Do not get me wrong. When watching the same picture from an analog vs a digital source from my C-Band dish, I prefer the digital. Why???? Less noise in the background. however i have seen original Ku analog feeds that blow away everything else. The chances of this occurring are low unfortunately and so we must settle for 10 bit video at a low transfer rate.. If people could see what I receive on my C band dish on the HD, digital or eeven the analog, they would throw away their LSD's in disgust. Pizza dishes deliver terrible quallity pictures and they are all digital. Anyway, i digress.

LSD's?????

(sorry Art, I couldn't resist :-)

Originally posted by MrHifi
i understand your point but disagree that just because it is in digital it is better. My LCD KDL-32XBR950 reconstructs the analog channels in such a way that my wife can not distinguish between the zoomed 16x9 image of a PBS HD program broadcast over the digital non HD feed and the same program broadcast over the HD feed. Try watching West Wing both ways. on my set you can hardly tell the difference. Given that this does occur, the differences between analog and digital transmission are somewhat obscured for me.

...


hmmm....I've watched West Wing 3 ways, too, on my Sony CRT, and the analog-transmitted analog version is no comparison with the HD (the latter through either component cables or DVI), either in resolution or color. The digitally transmitted non-HD is also no comparison, although it has - as expected - no noise and its color is more faithfully transmitted than in the analog broadcast.

....this doesn't seem at all like your experience, or at all what I would have expected....do ALL of your pictures look like high-quality photographs? Or is it possible that your HD is not up to par...?

Of course, I remind you that ALL of what I am talking about is OTA....my understanding is that cable, and maybe sattelite, offer variable quality on either analog or digital signals. But with OTA digital (including HD), you either receive exactly what the station is broadcasting, or you don't get anything....

Tony

Hi Art;
I have the C band 4dtv/hdd200 also and the HD, when a good starting material is used is great. BUT some of the PBS HD over the air broadcasts are quite competative with the C band HD, at least on my 62" DLP Toshiba. As for the small dishes, what do you expect from a free dish and receiver? Ya gets what ya pays for. I have not gotten any KU HD stuff or KU program material though so I can't judge them. With a good UHF antenna, a decent signal and good starting material, OTA is quite good and should beat cable hands down. I have not seen a lot of small dish type HD programming but what I have seen does not compete with my OTA HD.

Bill, we are in complete agreement. OTA HD from PBS and the football feeds are comparable in quality to the Discovery HD delivered on my C Band dish. Yes, HD on C Band blows everything else away but some HD OTA feeds come very close and are often just as good. I do have to laugh at those who consider the Little silly dish, LSD, some kind of panacea. It is not because of all the compression that occurs. Even our local PBS limits the bandwidth of their HD feed in order to be able to put up 3 other signals with varying programs. To wrap this up and get back on track, let me say that the LG delivers an OTA picture that is second to none via its RGBHV output.

I'm using the Y, Pb, Pr jacks. The output goes either to my toshiba 62 inch 720p or my infocus X1 800 by 450 format projector. The projector has a nice big screen, about 96 wide) and is lower in light level and resolution than the Toshiba but a bit more soothing to the eye at night. The Toshiba is more detailed, but kind of harsh at night in a dark room, less like a real movie that way. Would love to see what a real high def projector, a bit brighter would look like, but not till the prices come down a bit. Spent too much already to do any more outlay for a couple of years.
Have you looked at the 169time HDD-200/AVX computer mod? A bit slow to start recording, but seems to do a nice job. With the 4dtv guide and a timer recording set, the 3410A goes into record mode but just waits and does not use hard drive space till a signal comes on and then starts recording from the setup. Probably takes about 5 minutes of fussing to get video flowing thru the computer, but then I can turn off the 4dtv receiver and just allow it to sit till the timer turns it on for the program to be recorded. ONly the show and headers and trailers are extra onto the LG hard drive that way. Then you can clip record the movie and transfer the recording to a tape deck like the Mitsubishi 2000U. Have transferred a few shows and have a few just waiting for me tohave some time(and tape) to do a few more I have recorded. Just about the only way to get movies onto high definitiion tape. I want to have some when I get a HD projector some day.

Just as a point of reference..... I'm agree that CRT's have the edge for now, excpet DLP's are probably the wave of the future....

Just look at a dark image on CRT, Plasma, LCD, and DLP... The "quiet-ness" of a DLP willl blow the others away!!!

My vote is for DLP! and when it comes to the 3410a, Using NATIVE connection from 3410a to a DLP gives a picture improvement over YUV that is visually obvious.. (My preference is the Mitsubishi 62525).

On a different subject... I have given the LG Lab enough time to contact the Product support staff with the findings of the Y/C timing error that is occurring on SD signals in the IF stage of the 3410a....
I'm now politely asking for what can be done to eliminate them....

Can't leave well enough alone... I'm pushing Mitsubishi on the resolution of a bug there, too!!!

Bill,

I am not interested in recording HD to archive. I very rarely watch a movie twice. The's so much new stuff every day that recording is just not worth it. having said that please understand that you are hearing it from a guy who has over 300 R to R tapes I recorded, over 500 SVHS tapes and so many cassettes that I can't give an accurate number. Yes saving is nice but with HD the newer stuff always looks better.

My sentiments as well. I archived a lot of video 1979-2001, but after four years with HD, I wouldn't care to watch very much of it even if I had the time. There's just too much new HD material coming in every day. I have rented and copied my favorite episodes of a select few TV series to DVD in the hope that I'll watch them again sometime. I also have about 5000 music tracks that don't get much use because the satellite/cable music channels are more convenient.

I'm not much interested in archiving myself. The way DVDs appear so quickly after a show airs on TV or after a movie leaves the theater, there is little need.

There are a few things that might be nice to archive, however. The Red Sox amazing World Series and the Super Bowl are easy choices. However, there are very good DVDs for these shows, so archiving isn't as important. The Patriots have been producing a series of videos called 'Three Games to Glory' that have been surprisingly successful. The first one (2001) is not great (it came out of VHS tape), but the second one (2003 season) is an anamazingly good DVD. The current one (called Three Games to Glory III) is coming out in a couple of monthsand will include every play of the Patriots play-off games along with a lof of extras.

I'm mentioning this because they have been so successful that I expect a lot of other sports events will do it as well. If this happens, it will almost completely eliminate the need to archive. The only thing you need to archive are those rare, mostly black and white movies that are not out on DVD, and may never be. In this case, a nice sharp archive is worth having.

My vids of my family spanning almost 25 years are the only thing I value.

I usually record some of the 9 to 11 pm network shows since usually networks put their best shows in competition. That way I can fast forward thru commercials on an alternate show when nothing I like is on. As for archiving, maybe a few movies, but I agree, few are ever watched a second time and it is a waste of tape to record them. Nice to time swap though.

I just installed the QV Maxtor 300 GB into my LG 3410a and now have 31:55 of record time. It went in with out a problem and is very quite.

Also when I had the unit apart I did note that the cables do not run any where near the heat sinks in this unit. The cable placement look to be different then the first units out. No need to use zip ties to move then away from the heat sinks.

Mike

Originally posted by Jan J
Just as a point of reference..... I'm agree that CRT's have the edge for now, excpet DLP's are probably the wave of the future....

Just look at a dark image on CRT, Plasma, LCD, and DLP... The "quiet-ness" of a DLP willl blow the others away!!! On what planet?

DLP cannot do shadows and blacks. Watch anything with lots of dark scenes with shadow detail; it will resolve fine on CRT and plasma but turn into nothing but light grey goo on DLP.

This problem exists even on commercial units; if you've ever seen a film projected commercially using DLP projectors you know the precise definition of the term "crushed blacks"...

Kuschark,

Agree 100%. The main reason CRT projectors have gone out of favor is because they are expensive and time consuming to install. A dealer can make much more money with less hedaches with the DLP and LCD projectors. NO CONVERGENCE

Originally posted by MrHifi
The main reason CRT projectors have gone out of favor is because they are expensive and time consuming to install. ...and bulky

Originally posted by mstanl
I just installed the QV Maxtor 300 GB into my LG 3410a and now have 31:55 of record time. It went in with out a problem and is very quite.
Mike

Did you have to do a unix format on it, like tivo? Is there room for two drives? JR

Originally posted by jerrich
Did you have to do a unix format on it, like tivo? Is there room for two drives? JR

The LG does what little formatting it needs. There is only room for one drive and a second one doesn't appear to work even it it were outside of the case. I believe a few people have made "extensions" that allow for drive swaps.

Originally posted by jerrich
Did you have to do a unix format on it, like tivo? Is there room for two drives? JR

All I did was remove the old 120GB drive and installed the 300GB then I just went to the LG main menu for HD format and it did the format
for me. I did leave the jumper to master. No problems at all. There is no setup in the LG for two drives.
There are some people that put in two drives but can only run one drive at a time. They need a power switch and cable switch.

I have recorded two shows a 30 minute and a 1 hour show and still have 31:00 hours of record time on disk.

Mike

Actually you need only a power swithc. Use a 3 connector ribbon like for 2 drives in a computer and connect the center to the board and one drive to each end. Only the drive with power thru the 4 wire(2 of which are gouunds) requires switchying so a double pole double throw switch will do the job.

BIG D-VHS problems!
I have had my unit for a while and have no issues exept for DVI not working properly with my Toshiba HD plasma.I have been saving a lot of short clips from all kinds of HD programs that i want to keep.I also bought a 250GB Maxtor for an upgrade.So my thinking was to get a D-VHS deck,save my clips and put them back when the new Maxtor was installed.So i bought a brand new Mitsubishi HS-HD1100U.I have never had D-VHS before so i don't know what general problems is associated with this format but when trying to output my clips that plays flawlessly on the LG's hard drive to D-VHS i get tons of pixellation and audio dropouts.It turns out it only happens with HD programs recorded from cable(95% of my recordings)but the few clips recorded OTA copies perfectly to D-VHS.So i tried to record directly to D-VHS from cable and it works flawlessly!What i don't understand is how can a program play so perfectly off the hard drive but when copying the bitstream to tape so much information is lost that the program becomes unwatchable.And how do i save my precious recordings?Is there a way of "ghosting" the original hard drive with everything on it to the Maxtor?

Idon'tknow for sure, but since the diles are mpeg, maybe you could use a computer by putting both drives in as storage drives, not boot drives, and do a copy? Thing is, I don't know what the format of the drive is for video recorders so the computer may not recognize anything to do a copy. "Other than that , maybe just keep them on the old drive and save it using the new drive as your 3410 drive. I do know that you can use a computer cable to attach both drives to the 3410(ribbon center plug to the motherboard and ends to the drive, switch only the power supply to change drives. Even then only the colored wires on the power supply require connect/disconnect as the two black are ground and can remain attached to both drives as can the ribbon.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by alaindelon
[B]BIG D-VHS problems!

Alain,

Check out this thread on D-VHS recording and variable bit rates.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=515936

Originally posted by Bill Shenefelt
maybe you could use a computer by putting both drives in as storage drives, not boot drives, and do a copy? Thing is, I don't know what the format of the drive is for video recorders so the computer may not recognize anything to do a copy.

This isn't possible. The LG drive will show up as unpartitioned/unformatted since it doesn't contain a partition table. I have a theory on how to retrieve the data and hope to have time to test it this weekend.

Chris

Does anyone have discrete on/off remote codes for the 3410? I have this unit along with the LG LST-4200 in my stack and both share the power toggle. I'm using a JP1 capable remote. LG in their infinite wisdom allows the recorder to be powered down during a recording...life's good indeed!!...:rolleyes:

Originally posted by alaindelon
BIG D-VHS problems!

You have run into the same problem I discovered several months ago here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4185996#post4185996

I have not found a way around this. No one at LG admits any knowledge about it.

bnaegele's link at first seemed to present a logical cause --- the changing bit rate of some cable feeds. Upon reflection, however, I note that I can make good D-VHS copies on my Mits 2000U using the Comcast 6412 cable box (cable>HDD>D-VHS). If the bit rate variation causes the problem, then why doesn't the problem occur using the Comcast box?

Originally posted by pretzelkid
Does anyone have discrete on/off remote codes for the 3410? I have this unit along with the LG LST-4200 in my stack and both share the power toggle. I'm using a JP1 capable remote. LG in their infinite wisdom allows the recorder to be powered down during a recording...life's good indeed!!...:rolleyes:

remotecentral.com

Thank you,PhillyC.Your original post describes the problem exactly,specially note 2d.I have taken the process 2 steps further-recording cable directly from the 3410 to D-VHS,then back again on the 3410 hardrive,then back out to D-VHS one more time without a problem!I also did a simultaneous recording of 24 to both the 3410 and D-VHS with the exact same results described earlier.It is a truly strange phenomenon and i'm surprised more posters don't seem to be bothered by this.I have very strong signal strength on my cable but i can get a perfect recording with even the weakest OTA so i don't think that has any bearing.Reading about the variable bit-rate does not apply either as far as i can see.One thing i wonder is can it have anything to do with error-correction?I don't know all the technical specs of HDTV but there must be some sort of error-correction built into the ATSC standard if you lose some bytes in the mpeg stream along the way.

Alain,

I believe that one or two other posters noted this behavior, but we seem to be the only ones outraged by it. This flaw makes the firewire useless. (Well, in my case, I do use it to play back D-VHS made from my Comcast box, but that's a different story.)

Where are you located and what cable company do you have? Maybe these play a part, but it would seem that the flaw is in the 3410A. Talking to LG is just an aggravating ordeal. They keep repeating that they'll exchange the unit, as if that's the answer to an inherent flaw. And the units they now have in their inventory must be the worst of the worst. Of course, it's been months since I gave up and I haven't talked to them recently.

Is there anyone here who is able to archive cable programs from the 3410A HDD to D-VHS successfully, i.e. with glitch free D-VHS playback? I'd like to know if most or some or none can do this.

Originally posted by PhillyC
They keep repeating that they'll exchange the unit, as if that's the answer to an inherent flaw. And the units they now have in their inventory must be the worst of the worst. This is exactly the impression I've been getting. They seem to be taking returned units with serious problems, doing nothing except installing the 1.15 FW, and puting them back in the "swap program" inventory. I have one flawless 451-series 2004 model and one 351-series from the swap program that is the worst of four units that I've had. I'm giving up on having a 2nd 3410A at this point because all they seem to have to swap are defective 351-series 2003 units.

Even though it's several months old, I plan to start by trying to return it to BB. Probably failing in that, I will see if the credit card issuer will return my purchase price and tell me what to do with the unit.

Any news on when the replacement for the 3410A is due?

They are building them into certain of their new high profile TVs, but I haven't heard anything about a new standalone model. Maybe there's too much competition on the horizon, with Sony's new models "coming soon," DirecTV's HMC, and the possibility of just renting a DVR from your cable company for $10/month.

I would like to report on my experience with 3410a. I bought a refurbished
unit in Dec. It was a 351 series. I could not get it to work. It would start to record and not stop when it was to stop. The unit was locking up all the time. I returned it for another unit. The second unit was a 351 series and I had the same problems . It was worthless as a recorder. The place I purchased it from was honest and easy to deal with . They sent me a refund for the second unit in a timely manner. I then purchase a new unit
that is a 451 series with a build date of June 2004. That unit is working perfectly for a month now and has never locked up yet. So from my experience if anyone plans on buying a 3410a make sure it is a 451 series.

Originally posted by UncD2000
They are building them into certain of their new high profile TVs

Can you imagine having to deal with 3410A-type problems built into your high-end TV? Sounds like big fun.

FWIW,

There are no Maxtor QV drives anywhere. Ecost now hopes to get a couple on may 25th. i cancelled my order.

I ordered a Maxtor 300 GB 5400 rpm retail kit from Staples this last week. The kit p/n is K01J300. The drive inside was a 5A300J0 which I believe is the model many on this tread have used sucessfully as an upgrade. The drive has no indication of being a CV model but the specs appeared to be the same as the 5A300J0 CV as far as I could find.

The specific Quick View models referred to online at Maxtor.com could not be found when doing a search of either their website or via one of the web search engines I typically use.

I plan on using this "non CV" labelled drive. I just hope it is as quiet as the 120 GB drive currently in place. If it proves to be too noisy or has any recording problems I'll update this thread. ( and use the drive in a PC)

P.S. This is my second 3410A unit and it appears to be working as "designed". I don't have a D-VHS deck for archiving so it's only used for time delayed viewing of recorded shows. The only real shortcoming of this unit is the inability to record a new show and watch a previously recorded show. I will still likely get a Sony unit if/when they ever see the light of day just for the reported ability to record a new show while viewing a previously recorded one.

The QV drive is on Maxtors web site under the consumer electronics header. It does not show up when you search for part number 5a300j0qv. You have to go to the consumer electronics tab and manually search. They say it's more for streaming video and it's a quieter drive but the specs otherwise are identical. I put in a regular maxtor 300gb drive and it works just fine. It might be just a bit noisier than the original 120 in the unit but IMO it's really not a deal breaker and the normal drive is 40 bucks cheaper. Bought it at newegg for 199 + 3 for shipping. When i say it's noisier it's not a constant chatter , it's as quiet as the 120 during record or playback, when it starts up it clicks a little louder and when it shuts off it clicks

prezelkid;

is you maxtor the 5200 rpm unit with the same model number except the QV suffiz? Mine came thru with qv on the drive itself whether or not I bought a "QV" dirve.

It was the 5400 rpm drive 2mb cache. It was an OEM unit which means it has no consumer packaging like the box, cables or software disc. I saw your post earlier about receiving a QV drive when you purchased a non QV retail kit. Mine has no QV designation on it anywhere that I could see...:)

Hi - I'd like to ask if anyone knows how to find out what station in a local area broadcasts the TV Guide info, and where it gets that information...I seem to recall reference being made to a particular service or company, but can't recall what it was.

My reason for asking is that in the guide info that I am getting for the San Francisco area does NOT include the information for the high-definition broadcasts of the local PBS station (KQED 9-1). Increasingly this is having more high-quality broadcasts, but - because I now tend to rely mostly on the TV Guide provided by the 3410A - I am usually not aware of when such programs are on...

Anyway, any info on the service, or how to find out who's broadcasting it would be appreciated...I would then inquire of the station why that info is not being included...

Thanks - Tony

Originally posted by DiCecco
. . . a 451 series with a build date of June 2004. That unit is working perfectly for a month now and has never locked up yet. So from my experience if anyone plans on buying a 3410a make sure it is a 451 series. My experience is almost identical to yours. Additionally, I have noticed that the 451 tuner is more selective and deals with multiple music sub-channels much better than the 351 tuner.

I recently moved my entertainment center. I stacked all my components on glass shelves under the plasma.

The 3410 sits on the HD SAT520 which is never used or turned on. On the shelf below is the stereo reciever.

Today, 1 week after moving it (it was never moved once since I bought it a year plus back when), the channels don't always change right away either when pressed on the unit's front channel button or the remote, everything seems to happen in slow motion.

Afterit does do a delayed channel change, after a few second delay, the sound take 3-5 seconds or so to come on often. It did not ever do this before.

I tried clicking on the channel button on the unit itself, and I was shocked to see it also delay or not change channels often without repeated clicking most of the time.

Anyone seen this before? Seems an odd way to start dying if thats what its doing.

I never got the firmware upgrade, its one of the early units, but never had issues before now.

Anyone>>??

Yes, I have run into this with 351 units. I always found that unplugging the unit for just a second or two will restore operation.

Originally posted by avnstf
Hi - I'd like to ask if anyone knows how to find out what station in a local area broadcasts the TV Guide info, and where it gets that information...I seem to recall reference being made to a particular service or company, but can't recall what it was.

My reason for asking is that in the guide info that I am getting for the San Francisco area does NOT include the information for the high-definition broadcasts of the local PBS station (KQED 9-1). Increasingly this is having more high-quality broadcasts, but - because I now tend to rely mostly on the TV Guide provided by the 3410A - I am usually not aware of when such programs are on...

Anyway, any info on the service, or how to find out who's broadcasting it would be appreciated...I would then inquire of the station why that info is not being included...

Thanks - Tony

If you search TV Guide or Gemstar in this thread you'll get a bunch of posts on the subject. The PBS station here is 21-1 (HD content) and 21-2 (SD content) and the tvguide only shows info on 21-2. TitanTV does show both channels content info so give that a try

:)

<Anyone seen this before? Seems an odd way to start dying if thats what its doing.>

This has happened twice on my 451 unit. I believe it occurs due to a glitch in the downloaded info. No event that I have wtnessed causes the slow motion. The problem has manifested itself after an overnight download when I first turned the unit on following the download.

A more difficult issue for me is why it stays on after recording. Since the HD keeps spinning, I have to believe it is experiencing wear. It does not happpen every recording session but about 80% of the time.

"A more difficult issue for me is why it stays on after recording. Since the HD keeps spinning, I have to believe it is experiencing wear. It does not happpen every recording session but about 80"% of the time"

This happens to me a lot, too, and I have the same concern about wear....I have to do some tests to determine when it happens....

Originally posted by pretzelkid
If you search TV Guide or Gemstar in this thread you'll get a bunch of posts on the subject. The PBS station here is 21-1 (HD content) and 21-2 (SD content) and the tvguide only shows info on 21-2. TitanTV does show both channels content info so give that a try

:)

Hmmm....interesting that you have the same problem with PBS HD....

And...Yes, I've read many of those posts, some of which discuss ATTEMPTS to determine who is broadcasting the info, or ATTEMPTS to get info from Gemstar....but I'm hoping to find someone who has SUCCEEDED in getting this info and perhaps even in finding out why the PBS HD info is not being included.

Anyone had any success (not counting the fellow who happened to know an engineer at the station that broadcast the data)? Thanks - Tony

(And I'm aware that Titan has the info, but the convenience of onscreen info and one-button recording is what I'm looking for, so that PBS is as convenient to watch as the other stations!)

I contacted the fellow in the LG Lab this week.

He has not heard from the product specialists regarding the Y/C delay on all SD recordings via the tuner yet...

He did confirm that he will contact them again next week.

JanJ,

The reason you have not been contacted is because there is no Y/C delay. I compared the 3410A's performance to my DV-09 DVD player's. It has adjustable Y/C timing. The 3410A does not have a problem. I believe you are looking for problems. I still do not understand why you use the tuner for analog broadcasts. If you are seeing problems recording Digital SD feeds, there is something wrong in your setup. I record several shows a week that are digital SD. I do not see a problem that even approaches what I can simulate using the DVD player's Y/C adjustment range.

Originally posted by UncD2000
Yes, I have run into this with 351 units. I always found that unplugging the unit for just a second or two will restore operation.

A sincere thank you for the suggestion, it did indeed fix the problem. A momentary unplugging did not, but unpluuing it for 20 minutes or so seemed to fix it.

The clock was off but it did not loose any of the scheduled recording times I set and after about 3 hours the clock reset itself to the correct time, though it had no guide data yet.

Originally posted by MrHifi
I still do not understand why you use the tuner for analog broadcasts. I haven't tried the analog OTA tuner, but I've been using the analog cable tuner to record SG-1 & BSG on Fridays with good results (and I don't see any Y/C delay). This yields better PQ than viewing those two programs live on D*.

Unc...

That is as it shhould be. Most cable systems are using the gorgeous C-Band G5-18 feed to send to their customers uncompressed. Direct also uses that feed but downloads it using a large C-Band dish like I have and the cable companies use, compresses the signal and then feeds it to the satellite at 101 degrees. It then gets transmitted to the LSD's (little silly dishes) where viewers think they are getting the best picture possible. The truth is that next to C-Band/Ku/4DTV Voom provides the next best PQ then cable. The LSD quality is a lot poorer. BTW, I record my C-Band feed of BSG on my 3410A via the AV-1 input also.

MrHifi and avnstf,

The biggest problem I have with the unit staying on after recording is that it will not download fresh Program Guide information. That's especially a problem if I've gone on an extended trip of several weeks. I've an old unit (purchased Feb. 2004), but I've not had this problem since upgrading to 1.15 firmware. This leads me to think the problem is with Gemstar, since the 1.15 upgrade was, I believe, aimed primarily at fixing download problems. BTW, I'm receiving entirely OTA (non-sattelite)

I also have no Gemstar data for either the PBS HD or the SD digital channel. This happened following lightning damage to the Detoit area PBS station tower, and hasn't changed since repair. There is guide data for the non-digital broadcast, but none for either HD or digital (same content as analogue). Before the damage, there was data for the HD channel. According to a technical person at the station, Gemstar will only put out data for one broadcast channel, so analogue was chosen. No explanation for the fact that data were previously sent for both HD and analogue, nor the fact that channel 56 isn't the same physical channel as either 43-1 or -2.

"According to a technical person at the station, Gemstar will only put out data for one broadcast channel, so analogue was chosen."

hmmm...well, for the other networks, my TV Guide shows data for both the analog and digital stations...of course, for the commercial networks, these show the same programs, except that the digital is the HD version when that is available. (The only exception was during that last Olympics, when NBC (?) had different programming on the broadcast stations (as well as its cable stations)...

Maybe that's why the PBS HD programming isn't available....Tony

(I checked carefully last night, and my 3410a turned off after each recording, provided I didn't already have it turned on before the recording began...maybe all the times I found it on in the AM was after a recording the previous night that had started when I already had the u(nit on...)

Here in DC the PBS HD feed is listed separately with all the information provided. There is no info for their other 2 feeds. The same is true with the Annapolis, MD feeds of PBS. Details are provided for SD and HD feeds.

My unit arbitrarily stays on or goes off even when it starts from being off. I normally program it early in the day and then shut it off. I too have a 4.15 with firmware 1.15.

At 11:00 PM I check to see if it is off. Usually it is on at 11:05. At least it stays off. During the night i often record PBS HD feeds that are repeated all during the night. I normally capture about 6 hours/day. Wish i could find a Maxtor 300 QV.

Originally posted by MrHifi
JanJ,

The reason you have not been contacted is because there is no Y/C delay. I compared the 3410A's performance to my DV-09 DVD player's. It has adjustable Y/C timing. The 3410A does not have a problem. I believe you are looking for problems. I still do not understand why you use the tuner for analog broadcasts. If you are seeing problems recording Digital SD feeds, there is something wrong in your setup. I record several shows a week that are digital SD. I do not see a problem that even approaches what I can simulate using the DVD player's Y/C adjustment range.

No, you are VERY WRONG: There is a Y/C problem on SD receptions. It is due to the SAW IF Filter being so wide (to accomodate the bandwidth needed for HD signals in the IF Section). When the narrow SD IF signals hit that wide IF, they bounce from side to side... and Y & C get out of time with one another.
It's the same thing that happens in a large zoom lensz, and if you are familliar with video (black) Flare circuitry used to compensate for this (somewhat) simelar effect, it should be clear to you that is what is going on... (I even posted here that I couldn't see how a Line + of delay could occur in a detector, and that was because it happended BEFORE the detector).

With name removed, this is the report I received from the person at the Lab:

"Hello Jan,

It was a pleasure making your acquaintance on the phone last Friday. I have been able to duplicate what you are seeing, which is essentially, the luminance delayed from the chrome when you are input analog/SD OFF-Air or cable. In actuality, the Chrome is leading the luma on the SD composites input as well, but it is marginally acceptable. At least on the unit which I have.

Thus, given these circumstances, it is most likely that the saw filter in the tuner is optimized for a flatter response which is required when receiving digital signals and thus results in a great delay between Luma and Chroma in the analog domain. I will forward these findings to our engineering staff, but unfortunately there are no quick fixes here. Your unit may be an extreme case and I would be glad to look at it if you would like. At this point am unsure of the cure.

I Will keep you posted as to engineerings findings."

Now if you still feel that there is no Y/C timing errors, go right ahead and think that. So far, I've physically seen 5 units with it, and have corresponded with 4 other people who have confirmned the problem, and a couple of those people have multiple units.
The Lab has confirmed that the problem exists, and has forwarded the complaint up the food chain.....

My main complaint is that the tuner demod and video ouput of a $50.00 VHS deck from Sam's Club decodes a better video image, with less Y/C timing errors than does the 3410a.
Seeing that the technique of decoding and timing video in the Standard Definition Television Channels has been done for years and years.......
Finding a device that somehow someone forgot to look closely at prior to making thousands of them, then dismissing the problem once brought up,
is a real TECHNICAL EMBARRASSMENT!

(Sorry for ranting, you caught me off guard... I just upgraded the firmware in my Mitsubishi WD-62525. They wrote code to fix a problem that I discovered months back, and they fixed with their new V4.05 firmware, and I was feeling pretty good until I stumbled onto your post!)
Jan

Hi Jan;
I see where some could get frustrated, but with OTA in the HD stations even on standard definition programs the 3410A is great by my poor eyes. Also on my Toshiba, the guide that works just fine on the LG unit is a nightmare at Toshiba. You guys deserve some credit for what the 3410A does for HD, good reception, great picture and a recorder for it to match. Soo bad so many cable companies seem to not want to give subscribers more HD stations. Between my antenna and my C band satellite I get all I can watch in the digital format so I never saw any problems.

Ok, dont' shoot me if I missed this in a seach of this huge thread.

I have a 451 build 3410A and I have a unique situation while recording ONLY FOXDT-HD (not SD) over QAM only. The live feed is fine, however, the recorded version has audio dropouts. This is only on the QAM / FOX HD combo, no other QAM channel has this issue.

I have a very stable signal 3/4 into the GOOD range.

I have confirmed that there is no issue with OTA from 2 different Fox stations (LA11 & SD6), it is only via QAM from Cox cable.

I have seen the posts about problems going from HDD to DVHS and overall reception, but not this one.

OB

Originally posted by obrenter
Ok, dont' shoot me if I missed this in a seach of this huge thread.

I have a 451 build 3410A and I have a unique situation while recording ONLY FOXDT-HD (not SD) over QAM only. The live feed is fine, however, the recorded version has audio dropouts. This is only on the QAM / FOX HD combo, no other QAM channel has this issue.

I have a very stable signal 3/4 into the GOOD range.

I have confirmed that there is no issue with OTA from 2 different Fox stations (LA11 & SD6), it is only via QAM from Cox cable.

I have seen the posts about problems going from HDD to DVHS and overall reception, but not this one.

OB

I am having a similar issue with QAM but on direct viewing I also have audio drops. I noticed watching the signal strength meter that the signal drops to 0 every 10 seconds or so... then back to full strength, usually it happens fast enough for there to be no audio drop... but not always. Anyone else have this problem?

Originally posted by obrenter
I have a very stable signal 3/4 into the GOOD range.

OB Have you tried a variable attenuator? The 3410A tuner circuitry is quite sensitive to weak signals, but sometimes it doesn't handle very strong ones too well. I was having a different type of strong signal problem, but a 4-way splitter following a 2-way further up the line (both Regal models) resulted in at least 10.5 dB cut before the cable signal gets to the 3410A. My signal readings are at the lower end of Normal on the weaker QAM channels, but there are no dropouts in audio or video.

I have tried many different combos, but none successful. I have to dump from the 6412 to DVHS first then DVHS to LG for editing (not worth it in most cases). You cannot go directly from the 6412 to the LG (LG will show that it is an unsupported device).

I have 2 3410As. One I use for over the air, and the other I get the local HD off comcast. I have no problem with the guide via OTA but I never get it from the comcast hookup despite unpluging and resetting. Only twice over a period of 4 months. I have scanned all the analog and Digital channels. Comcast just put the local WB affiliate HD feed on line this year, I cant seem to pick it up on my 3410A. I am getting all the other OTA locals fine via the comcast hookup. Another problem that happens sometimes with the fox comcast HD feed is that the 3410A at times drops the picture and puts a 'SCRAMBLED" message in blue. When this happens I just switch to another channel and switch back immediately and the signal is fine again. Anyone else have some of these issues? Thanks.

I have some issues with Comcast as well. They keep working on our system and channels appear and re-appear. I only subscribe to expanded basic cable because I won't watch any of the digital channels. To get their full HD package, you need to subscribe to the digital basic plan (extra $9.99 per month and then $5.00 for the box). I'm too cheap to pay $14.99 extra (would put cable bill at $60 + taxes + High Speed Internet)....way too much money!

Dave

I believe that in most Comcast systems the local HD stations that are carried are not encrypted or trapped out. Thus, the 3410A QAM tuner will receive them regardless of what you subscribe to. Even subscribing only to internet service or Comcast digital phone service is usually sufficient to make the local HD channels available if you have your own QAM tuner.

Comcast in Atlanta broadcasts a block of Music Choice digital audio channels in the clear which my LST-3410A can receive quite well. The video portion of the signal on each sub-channel consists of a slide with the song/artists listings and some additional info. This is a 480p picture which seems to be updated once every 5 seconds or so.

If you try to record one of these music channels on the 3410A, it seems to record just fine until you go back and try to replay the program. When you do this, all you get is a frozen screen saying program end. The file size when you get details on the program recorded shows it is very small (ie, 70MB for 30min.).

Has anyone else had success recording a Music Choice (or other digital audio) channel with this format (normal Dolby Digital audio+480p video still frame refreshed at a slow rate) with the 3410A?

Something doesn't make sense with this whole Y/C delay thing. It is my understanding that a SAW ("S"urface "A"coustic "W"ave) filter is a device used in NTSC decoders to separate the luminance and chrominance information. It is NOT used to receive an RF signal and would therefore not play a role in ATSC (as I understand it.) Now, maybe the design is such that the same signal path is used to save some $$$ but I would still wonder why the ATSC signal would be touched at all by the NTSC stuff. Which brings me to the point: Optimized for digital reception and thereby damaging the analog reception; I question this excuse.

Really, though, if you want to record analog stuff isn't this box kind of overkill. I have one and I only use it for the digital stuff. I can hardly stand to watch low-def anyway:)

I'm pretty sure Jan's problem is not with the ATSC tuning in the box, but rather the NTSC tuning.

<Has anyone else had success recording a Music Choice (or other digital audio) channel with this format (normal Dolby Digital audio+480p video still frame refreshed at a slow rate) with the 3410A?>

Please email me privately if you wish to dicuss this. This is a matter of extreme sensitivity that should not be discussed here. Please let's drop this issue as a favor to me. I'll communicate privately with erichklein if he emails me.

I have to agree Marc. The NTSC tuner must be his problem because SD coming through the digital path is perfect.

The SAW filter is in the IF... not decoder...

The problem seems to be the relatively narrow NTSC IF bouncing within the very Wide IF of the SAW, designed for HDTV bandwidth...

In this case, bigger is not necessairly better!

It's a shame they didn't use two IF's, and two detectors, cause if they had, all these posts would be un-necessary... and we'd be posting on other bugs, Like Mr. HIFI's occasional recording that doesn't turn off after recording.

My wife has mentioned this a couple times. One time she left it on to see what would happen on the next record.
The next record happened as programmed. 2 min before, it changed channel, 1 min before, it went into record.

She uses the 3410a every day, for playback and recording, that has seen this maybe 8-10 times in the past 6 months.

Originally posted by Jan J
It's a shame they didn't use two IF's, and two detectors, cause if they had, all these posts would be un-necessary... and we'd be posting on other bugs Most of us ARE posting about other things ;). To be truthful, I think you are the only one that this issue is truly an issue for.

It's still fun to discuss nonetheless.:cool:

Maybe I'm just Picky! :)

Or others just don't care... Dunno!!!!

Jan J,

Mine stays on after it finishes recording a timer controlled event or a manually controlled recording event all the time now. Unless I shut it off manually it will stay on indeinitely.

Originally posted by MrHifi
Jan J,

Mine stays on after it finishes recording a timer controlled event or a manually controlled recording event all the time now. Unless I shut it off manually it will stay on indeinitely.

I have to believe that there is (at least) one firmware bug left in the 3410a that is causing this. The first thing I would do is to check that there were no obvious problem recordings on the hard drive. Then, you might try watching the 3410a when it is supposed to turn off. If it starts counting down to turning off (message on the TV) but doesn't turn off that would eliminate a Guide issue. If you never see a message than you might try re-adding your timer recording reservations. I have seen timer reservations cause this issue once on mine.

As you know, the somewhat brute force method is to do a reset with the demo pin. You might try the unplug for two hours method, but I have a feeling that won't work in this case.

The funny thing is that I usually only see this when the hard disk is full and then once I clear the enough space the problem goes away. As I said before the only other time I tracked it to the timer reservation.

Andy

Originally posted by erichklein
Really, though, if you want to record analog stuff isn't this box kind of overkill. In the last week I've recorded SG-1, BSG, & The Shield from analog cable on the 3410A because this yields noticeably better PQ than my other alternatives. In addition, I can employ the 3410A's Spectacle mode on playback of 4:3 material if I wish (my HDTV doesn't have a "progressive stretch" mode).

Here is what I have found out from my 3410A. I have had it since the beginning of September, and other than the 1080i component output looking like crap for the first 20 minutes that the unit is powered on, it looks great. I have gone around that problem and use the DVI output, and that looks great with no problems.

Now, to the problems that others have...ie, never shutting off after a recording, guide data problems, and the lockup bug. I had experienced all three problmes and have narrowed it down to one thing. Remapping channels in the channel guide! Anytime I remapped channels, I ran into all of these problems. I would then reboot (unplug) the unit and start all over again. After the 5th time of doing this (in November), I said screw it and left all of the channel's in their original space. Since November, I have not had ONE problem at all. No lockups, my recorder stops after every recording, and I get the guide data like I am supposed to.

Just my $.02.

Dave

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn

Now, to the problems that others have...ie, never shutting off after a recording, guide data problems, and the lockup bug. I had experienced all three problmes and have narrowed it down to one thing. Remapping channels in the channel guide! Anytime I remapped channels, I ran into all of these problems. I would then reboot (unplug) the unit and start all over again. After the 5th time of doing this (in November), I said screw it and left all of the channel's in their original space. Since November, I have not had ONE problem at all. No lockups, my recorder stops after every recording, and I get the guide data like I am supposed to.

Just my $.02.

Dave

By re-mapping you mean changing channel positions in the guide? Moving Discovery up the pecking order and C-Span down or off? Or do you mean changing the channel number to match a logo. I've done both...added Showtime channels and changed the channel numbers to match each of the Showtime flavors just recently with the preview weekend and I've never had a problem afterward. I also haven't had problems with it not shutting off after recordings if it was off to begin with. I have had the TV Guide burp a couple times and had to start from scratch (wish you could sort those channels initially by channel number and not alphabetically). The box is a 451 with 1.15 and I've modified it with a 300gb hdd and it's very robust...at least for me.

Oh and one other thing...I tried Jan J's scenario...set the box to native using YUV output(component) to my Panny 47" RPTV(no DVI) which is a 1080i/480p/480i set and tuned analog cable QVC(480i) and I just don't see what he sees...just crappy analog cable but not fringing as he describes. I also tried variable 2 (1080i/720p->1080i and 480p/480i->480p) with the same result. I'm not saying he's seeing things but just providing another data point. The fact that LG sees it now is kinda baffling to me....:)

pretzelkid, I tried the analog OTA tuner in addition to what you tried. I see no fringing on a 96" wide screen.

Originally posted by MrHifi
pretzelkid, I tried the analog OTA tuner in addition to what you tried. I see no fringing on a 96" wide screen.

I thought of doing that also but Jan's scenario used QVC (and I didn't want to mess with changing all my settings ). The only thing that's different in my scenario is I switch that component output through a Yamaha receiver but I have to think it's a passive switch..

pretzelkid,

How did you go about setting up the Showtime channels for the preview weekend?

My guide displays the showtime channel #s as the comcast #s (560's IIRC).
Did a re-scan of the cable channels lock the temporarily unscrambled showtime channels so you could "channel up- channel down" through them and they would lock? Did you find ShowtimeHD?

One last dumb question. Is there an easy and non time consuming way to find out about previews before they are half over?

tia

Lew

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
I have narrowed it down to one thing. Remapping channels in the channel guide! Anytime I remapped channels, I ran into all of these problems. I would then reboot (unplug) the unit and start all over again. After the 5th time of doing this (in November), I said screw it and left all of the channel's in their original space. Since November, I have not had ONE problem at all. No lockups, my recorder stops after every recording, and I get the guide data like I am supposed to.I am going to give this a try to the extent of going back to the original channel order, but I do have to change the channel numbers on the HD locals to actual QAM channels (the guide comes in with the virtual channel numbers that Comcast assigns to these for their digital boxes). I will report back if this change helps.

FWIW,

I never remaped mine and mine stays on after every recording session.

It's been so long, I have forgotten how to remap a QAM HDTV channel to an ATSC OTA one (in my case FOX-DT in L.A.).

How do I remap from 766 to 11.1?

Originally posted by lewlew
pretzelkid,

How did you go about setting up the Showtime channels for the preview weekend?

My guide displays the showtime channel #s as the comcast #s (560's IIRC).
Did a re-scan of the cable channels lock the temporarily unscrambled showtime channels so you could "channel up- channel down" through them and they would lock? Did you find ShowtimeHD?

One last dumb question. Is there an easy and non time consuming way to find out about previews before they are half over?

tia

Lew

The Showtime channels showed up on channel 103-1 to 103-9. I went into the TVGuide and went into Setup then Change channel display. Once in there you can move channels up or down if the left side is highlighted or turn channels on or off and change the channel number if you've highlighted the right side. Drilled down to where the Showtime logos were...highlighted the right side...turned them on then changed the channel to 103-1 or whatever and jumped out. The Showtime channels showed up with no listing till the next day and it was done. The preview on Charter cable did not include the HD channel but i read here that some cableco's did have it.

I noticed the preview before it started when watching the weather channel they had a crawl announcing it...otherwise I would have noticed through this forum or a couple other forums I go to. :)

Originally posted by mkerdman
It's been so long, I have forgotten how to remap a QAM HDTV channel to an ATSC OTA one (in my case FOX-DT in L.A.).

How do I remap from 766 to 11.1?

It's the same as I have described in my previous post...I do the same for one QAM HD local I receive...and I move channels all over the place cuz they put all the HD channels on the bottom so I move them all to the top and I like all my cable channels in numerical order not alphabetical. I like things the way I like things....:p

Thanks pretzelkid-
You didn't say however how you found the 103.1-103.9 were the showtime channel numbers. Did you re-scan or trial and error until you found them or did they just show up when surfing?

BTW, we had showtimeHD here along with the rest of the pack.

Murry,
pretzelkid's directions sound pretty good but I don't think you'll be able to assign 11.1 to Fox HD unless your cable co is sending it at 11.1. You will probable have to assign the number like 76.3 that the cable co is actually sending it on.

Originally posted by lewlew
Thanks pretzelkid-
You didn't say however how you found the 103.1-103.9 were the showtime channel numbers. Did you re-scan or trial and error until you found them or did they just show up when surfing?

BTW, we had showtimeHD here along with the rest of the pack.

Murry,
pretzelkid's directions sound pretty good but I don't think you'll be able to assign 11.1 to Fox HD unless your cable co is sending it at 11.1. You will probable have to assign the number like 76.3 that the cable co is actually sending it on.

I did a rescan on the day Showtime was to be available....

and if Murrays Fox OTA is 11.1 then he'll pick up Fox OTA. I have a weird situation with Fox here also. Fox47 (Madison WI.) didn't show up in the logos for me but Fox 6 (Milwaukee) did show up. I have my antenna pointed to Madison cuz Madison Fox 47 actually broadcasts HD with good signal strength and Fox 6 Milwaukee signal is non-existent even though I'm 10 miles closer to it. I've assigned the Fox 6 logo to pick up 47-1 instead and for the primetime shows and football it's all the same so it works for me. During the day the schedule doesn't match but I don't care as long as the primetime is accurate. for recording and stuff....
:)

I've re-mapped the channels here, and do it the following way...

In TV Guide,
Select Menu,
Select Setup,
Change Channel Display
scroll up & down to get to LOGO you want to change, or turn off/on,
Turn off or on, with color'd keys,
Enter the new channel number ....
and then you can drag it up and down the list...

For example, We've selected the channels we want and moved them to the top of the list, by the channel numbers we wish to use.. We'll select the HD or SD channels depending on what we want displayed...
If ABC is on channel 7-0, you've selcected the SD ABC program. If ABC is on 7-1, you've selected the HD ABC Program.

Another problem we've encountered, and been relatively quiet on.. (Imagine... Me being Quiet!!).... There are INSUFFICIENT Channel LOGO's for what we need here in Chicagoland..
There are multiple channels that cannot be programmed into the TV Guide, because there are in-sufficinet Logos to do so. This problem exists on Terristerial as well as Cable channels.
For example.. We receive Oxygen! channel on cable, and there is no way to program it in TV Guide.
There are 2 WB channels, only One Logo.
Multiple NBC channels, but one less Logos in TV Guide than the amount of NBC stations.
Multiple ABC channels, but one less Logos in TV Guide than the amount of
ABC stations.
Same for PBS, and other channels.

Jan,
Why would you want to wathc the O? :wink:

Dave

Since I know this has been posted alot and the answer may keep changin, whats the current status of the firmware for the 3410a. Mine is more than 1 year old, I probably should send it in for the firmware upgrade.

I need address and phone # info.

Also will they charge and what version of firmware are they at right now?

anyone ?

4.15

Originally posted by MrHifi
4.15

4.15 what?

The version menu in mine has the following info:



s/w : mp1.12

h/w : 10.4

db : 4.5

Guide: 7.1.2.0

Date Feb 03, 2004

Originally posted by ZZtop
4.15 what? I'm sure he meant 1.15

ZZtop, if your 1.12 model is doing OK, I would advise against sending it in to LG. Rather than receiving your original unit back, you would probably get a refurb 2003 unit from the "swap program." These units have 1.15 installed, but most are defective and have many of the issues so often discussed in this thread.

ZZtop,

I sent in my Feb. 2004 unit for upgrade from 1.12 to 1.15 a few months ago. I taped a note to it (including s/n) requesting that they upgrade this one and not send a replacement. That's exactly what they did. Programs stored on the Hard Drive were still there when it was returned, and the unit exhibits hardly any problems since the upgrade.

Originally posted by Dan Kolton
ZZtop,

I sent in my Feb. 2004 unit for upgrade from 1.12 to 1.15 a few months ago. I taped a note to it (including s/n) requesting that they upgrade this one and not send a replacement. That's exactly what they did. Programs stored on the Hard Drive were still there when it was returned, and the unit exhibits hardly any problems since the upgrade.

I had the same experience - taped a note on my 3410a that said to only replace the firmware and not to exchange. I received the same 3410a back.

The key is to make sure that whatever tech is performing the "repair" that they understand you want the same unit back.

The latest firmware that I'm aware of is version 1.15.

That's very good advice. I didn't do that because they had promised, and noted on my account, that they would send a 2004 unit (451-series) as a replacement. (On my #1 unit, they had in fact sent a brand new 2004 model, which has been doing fine.) Unfortunately, they say that the 2004 units were gone as of about a month ago, and since the 3410A has been discontinued, all that remain are the 2003 refurbs. I am in the process of getting one more of these (my 3rd), and if it disappoints I plan to give up on having two units, and see if the credit card issuer can get my money back.

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
Jan,
Why would you want to wathc the O? :wink:

Dave

Not me, wife... and un-fortunately, that logo has not appeared on my set...
The 2nd one I had here a month or so ago, when I programmed it for my zip code and waited overnight, it DID load 2 WB logos, but no Oxygen! Logo.

I'm guessing that if I ever get the box away from wife again for a few days, I'll re-program it with another Zip Code, then back to our Zip Code, and let it sit overnight again, and maybe the 2nd WB Logo would show up, but that's a lot of goofing around for a 'maybe'.

It's unfortunate that they don't supply a few blank Logos, so a new network could be added, and let the progams become 1/2 hour blocks.....

There I go again! Making suggestions!!!

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
I'm sure he meant 1.15

"He" did mean 1.15. My apologies. I feel that we owners of the 3410A have formed a brotherhood. Adversity has its rewards I guess. Over at the 4DTV Forum to which I also subscribe, C-Band owners have a similar affection for one another, that one based on fear of survival.

Unfortunately, I have a QAM tuner problem with my unit. I have the latest firmware 1.15. Had the unit for almost a year. I'm getting pixelation and video/sound drop off on most of the HD channels off the QAM tuner. It only affects the HD channels, CADTV SD channels have no issues as well as OTA channels. Since it wasn't all the channels having problems, I always thought it was a cable/signal issue. Tried using amplifiers and antennuaters. I borrowed a friends Samsung T451 QAM tuner (which was crap, compared to the LG) but was able to tune to these problematic channels with no issues. It's definitley not a heat issue, it's not next to other components with plenty of breathing room. Now that I am over the 90 day labor warranty, I have to send my unit + $90 to LG to investigate. Anybody have similar issues or suggestions on what I might try before sending this out? I think I'll open the unit up and hopefully find something obvious.

Thanks in advance,
Aud

I would verify that the Cable company has not set any flags that might affect the HD feeds. I am assuming that the cable's HD feeds are not digitized. If they are, the 3410A will not get then. Does the problem occur while watching or when you try to record? Have you checked OTA HD reception? If it works, I would call the cable provider and ask if there is anything special about their signal.

Art- "In the clear QAM" IS a DIGITAL signal.

Aud- What other "digital" signals(other than in the clear QAM HD) are you receiving from your cc? Are these some of the digital simulcast channels that are appearing? and where(what channel #s) are you finding them?

I have found the QAM tuner in my 3410a to be fairly particular about how much and how good a signal I feed it. What were the results or your trials with attenuators and amplifiers? If an attenuator just made it worse you might need to have the cc cleanup and amplify the signal before it comes inside. If a small amount of amplification doesn't seem to help it might suggest the same problem.

Lew

Mr Hifi,
OTA, cable SD, and cable QAM SD have no problems. Problems are only on some QAM HD channels. All digital music channels are intermittant as well, but who cares. I dont believe flags are the issue since one of the problematic ones is NBC. Also, I'm talking about live tv, not recorded.

lewlew,
I am able to recieve a few digital SD off the QAM tuner with no issues. I bought both amplifier and attenuator from Radio Shack. I turned the dial from low to high on both and saw no change in signal or picture quality. Pixelation problems still apparent no matter what I dialed into.

Here are my problem channels that have pixelation and audio drops:

INHD 105-1 = Intermittant, mostly during sport events
INHD2 105-2 = Intermittant at different times
Discovery HD 115-1 = Constant problems
NBCHD 116-1 = Intermittant only during primetime
ESPNHD 116-2 = Constant problems

Also tried the new Samsung QAM tuner and had no pixelation problems at all.

Interesting you get INHD1&2, DiscoveryHD and ESPNHD for free at all. Not with comcast.

I still think your problems are with signal strength and quality. An amplifier placed at the entrance to your building may make a difference. Have the cable people come out and measure your signal at the 3410a.

Again I ask what channels are you getting SD of the QAM tuner? I'm very curious.

Audball

i know you do not believe it is heat related but based on my experience with three of these, i would find a big room fan, blow the hell ou of it and see if your pixelization goes away.

Lewlew,
I can get Nickolodeon kids, NBA TV promo , History Channel, E!, Chinese channel, and one that has TV reruns. There maybe more but I'm away from the TV. What signal level should I be getting from Comcast?

Mr. Hifi,
It's worth a try.....

I'm getting good results with signal at the N in "Normal." With a 2-way and a 4-way splitter ahead of it (-10.5 dB loss), the 3410A is getting 1/8 of the incoming cable signal. LG tuners are quite sensitive and do fine with low signal levels. They are prone to overload with very high levels.

What are the symptoms when the LG recieves high level signals?

I have experienced severe dropouts with signal readings dropping from the top of the graph to zero and back up again.

Audball,
Try the Motorolla signal booster that sells at CC. I have that and the pixilization, while still there, is improved by 90% most of the time. Comcast is doing something with their signals that is weird the last couple of weeks.

Dave

Originally posted by UncD2000
I have experienced severe dropouts with signal readings dropping from the top of the graph to zero and back up again.

I am experiencing exactly the same behavior with mine. I have Comcast Cable. We have two HD channels on 90-1,2 and one on 91-3. 90-2 also has issues resulting in a switch to 90-1.. VERY annoying. I have played around with STD and IRC modes on the reciever (they are supposed to be the same) but I noticed IRC seems to be more stable... have you tried that?

I haven't tried that one yet. I will give that a try!

Thanks for the tip.l

Dave

I just wish the LG would have allowed timer recording through the AV1 and AV2 inputs.

Well...the IRC had worse results with pixelation.

Dave

Originally posted by MrHifi
I just wish the LG would have allowed timer recording through the AV1 and AV2 inputs. Me too. Also, it's incredible they didn't put an S-video input on one of the AVs.

You wouldn't think that STD, IRC, HRC would have any effect on the digital cable channels. Those are analog cable tuning modes and the QAM tuner should be independent of the setting. OTOH, there are several things on the 3410A that don't work like they're supposed to.

My experience with high signal levels:

OTA- Too much signal (or too much dirty signal) resulted in random, but frequent drop-outs and pixelization.

QAM- Too much signal resulted in extremely slow channel lock, as much as 5-6 seconds even having the "no signal" coming on screen first. My picture however did not break-up or pixelate at this level. This left me thinking for almost a year that the QAM tuner was just very, very slow to lock QAM channels. After attenuating the signal the lock time is just about the same speed as OTA. duh!

It would seem "more" is only better to a point when it comes to HD signals.

more.....more.....more......that's enough!

Lew

Does anyone have a part number for a variable attenuator from RS? Their -10dB one is too strong...I think I only need about -2dB

Dave

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
Does anyone have a part number for a variable attenuator from RS? Their -10dB one is too strong...I think I only need about -2dB

Dave

I was attenuated to the point that the analog cable channels look terrible... then started removing attenuation. Both ends... little signal, and lotsa signal, I have QAM receiver issues. On an unrelated issue I called LG (Guide menu would not come up) I asked about the QAM audio drop and pixelation... and the are now sending me a shipping label.... Appearently they have a problem with the QAM portion of the receiver. I'm not sure if I dare send it back. Any suggestions?

MKasper,

We have aall experienced what you are seeing. One needs to receive properly the station that is carrying the guide. If you can, try receiving OTA. I'm not sure why anyone would want to use the tuner to receive QAM non HD signals. Unless you are one of the few who can receive unscrambled HD via the cable, I'd try to get some OTA HD. If you can receive unscrambled HD, try to ask what station the guide comes dwn on and program it in even if it is an OTA station.

I would be afraid to send my unit in, if I couldn't get my identical unit back after it was worked on! I can live with the dropouts since I hardly, if ever, watch those channels. If I wanted them that bad, I would pay the $5 a month to comcast to get them without the pixelations!

Dave

Originally posted by MrHifi
MKasper,

We have aall experienced what you are seeing. One needs to receive properly the station that is carrying the guide. If you can, try receiving OTA. I'm not sure why anyone would want to use the tuner to receive QAM non HD signals. Unless you are one of the few who can receive unscrambled HD via the cable, I'd try to get some OTA HD. If you can receive unscrambled HD, try to ask what station the guide comes dwn on and program it in even if it is an OTA station.

My problem was not that my guide was empty... it was that the guide would not come up at all (to view pre sched. programs, configure, anything) I couldn't even change the zip code. They had no suggestions other than a "reset". The neat thing is that a "short" power cycle (5 seconds of the plug out of the wall) resulted in a reset that allowed me to get into the guide again, AND it kept the guide info & sched. record settings. Strange behavior.

As for the QAM issue... Audball's problems are nearly exactly the problems I am having... total Loss of Signal on the signal meter, more often than not audio drops in and out, video pixalates enough to be annoying but not totally unviewable. My original assumption was that it was a Comcast issue since no one else had detail the issue until now.

Thanks for your help! I will keep pondering the thought on sending the unit in... for now I think I'll hang on to it.

Originally posted by mkasper
... and they are now sending me a shipping label.... Appearently they have a problem with the QAM portion of the receiver. I'm not sure if I dare send it back. Any suggestions? I would give their "swap program" a shot, considering all the problems you are having. Hopefully you will get lucky and get a good one. (On my #2 unit, I am currently awaiting the shipment of my 3rd refurb.) You might attach a note to your returned unit asking that they send a 2004 unit in exchange. I don't think they have any more of them (451-serial numbers), but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Dave,

As I've said in earlier posts, I returned mine (purchased Feb. 2004) for firmware upgrade from 1.12 to 1.15 with a note taped to the cover requesting that they return the same unit (included Serial # on note). It came back with the recordings on the hard drive undisturbed, and the unit has been much more docile since the upgrade. You might try the same thing.

I may give that a try before 1 year is up. I may have to pay for shipping, but I don't want to lose my HD ability until after the NBA season is over :-)

Dave

In case this helps anyone looking for another unit, I saw a new-in-box LG 3410A in the White Marsh, MD Best Buy yesterday. #451 serial number, no blue sticker.

Originally posted by UncD2000
On my #2 unit, I am currently awaiting the shipment of my 3rd refurb. It arrived today, and the third time was the charm. LG finally made good on their promise to send a 2004 unit!! This one is a refurb with June 2004 mfg. date and 1.17FW. I have no idea what problems the 1.17 version addresses, but it's doing fine so far. We'll see how it behaves when the guide appears tomorrow. I now have two 2004 units (451-serial numbers), one with 1.15FW and one with 1.17. I'll see if I can detect anything different with 1.17 and will report back later.

FW 1.17? Interesting....

Please try to schedule a recording from the AV inputs.

I just received my backup 3410a from B&H for about $700. It was from the 451* serial number units. I think hey have a few more because when I place my order I temporarily entered a quantity of 3 just to see what would happen and they said they had 3 in stock. I have no idea what firmware version it has.

Marc,
The AV input issue was my first thought too. i wonder what prompted 1.17? Perhaps the "not shutting off". Mine rarely shuts off after recording. Dropouts have been getting worse.

We've come up with an interesting fix for some of the problems...
We'll first power cycle unit, then, remove all scheduled recordings, then power cycle again, then re-schedule the recordings we just removed....

That seems to fix the "not shutting off"

For how long?

I wonder if this 1.17 FW fixes the QAM tuner pixelation problems. Anyone know exactly what this new firmware fixes?

Audball,
I was wondering the same thing. I was going to give LG a call this week to see what is being fixed. I already have a problem with my component output at 1080i with the unit (horizontile bands in the picture). I ended up using the DVI output because of this but would like to have it fixed for peace of mind. I was thinking of getting the Comcast box for $5 per month to keep HD until my 3410a returned from them!

Dave

Both of my LGs occasionally produce red horizontal bands (via component)on the lower half of the screen, so 1.17 doesn't cure this. It only happens on one QAM channel, which carries 54 Music Choice subchannels with info cards describing the selections, artists, etc. This could be a problem with my TV (RCA F38310) rather than the LGs.

Mine look like interference...they go away after the unit has been on for 20 or so minutes...I think it is a poor solder somewhere along the way (just a theory).

Dave

Originally posted by wilsonsoohoo
I have no idea what firmware version it has. To find out, go to Setup/Troubleshooting/Version Info. Of the 3 varieties I have had, all the data was identical except the following entries:

S/W: MP 1.12 Date: 2/3/04
1.15 Date: 4/6/04
1.17 Date 7/23/04

Sorry, Marc, but my unit with 1.17 version won't do timer recordings of AV1 or AV2. The "Invalid Entry" message appears, but it seems to accept the data and the green "reserved" light remains on. It comes on two minutes before the scheduled time but never switches to AV, and after about a minute the green light goes out and the unit shuts off.

No telling what 1.17 addressed, since it's over 8 months old. I think LG ended the production run shortly after 1.17 was finalized, because BB started closing the 3410A out in late August I think. I bought one in September (later adjusted to $549), and then an "open box" unit for $499 in November. Both of these were 2003 351 models. They had the usual problems we have discussed here, and LG sent me a brand new 2004 451-unit to replace #1. For the #2 unit, after 2 bad 351 refurbs with 1.15FW, they finally sent the 451 refurb with 1.17 which arrived this week. I hope these two hold up in service, because having the QAM tuning is very convenient. Even if I have a D* HMC a year from now, it won't have QAM tuning, and maybe not
even analog cable tuning.

Originally posted by UncD2000
To find out, go to Setup/Troubleshooting/Version Info.

Thanks for the help, but the real reason I don't know the firmware version is that before I opened the box, I loaned it to a friend so he could see if he likes it or not. The benefit to me is that he will be able to tell me if it's DOA. Putting it in place of the current LG would be a pain in the but because of space issues, so HE is doing ME the favor in my opinion :-)

I posted this a while back but it is valuable info for those wanting a bigger drive. YOu can use a computer ribbon, plug the center into the motherboard and each end into a hard drive. Also get a double pole double throw switch to provide power to one or the other hard drive(use only the red and yellow wires, the two black can be connected to both drives as they are grounds. Then you can just turn the 3410 off, throw the switch, turn it back on and you are on the second drive. I did not put the 2nd drive inside the chassis due to heat considerations(just flow restrictions since only one drive would be running at any given time) as well as some space limitation and outside(the switch and ribbon wiring fits out easily) you can switch out that drive without messing around with opening the lg chassis. If you need any details just contact me directly by email with my "personal info"

Originally posted by MrHifi
For how long?

It happened a little over a week ago, and we tried Power cycle only, but that didn't fix anything. Then we tried a power cycle, and delete the Scheduled recordings, and then just to make sure the system saw nothing, did a power cycle with nothing scheduled, then re-eneterd the scheduled recordings. Note that during this time, there were 4-6 recordings (SD & HD) on the drive....

Been fine since. If it acts up, she'll tell me.....

Jan J-

I have used the 'delete the Scheduled recordings' you describe successfully several times over the past year. It lasts (IMHO) until 'bad data'in the broadcast guide info confuses GemStar, which seems to me to be about once every 3-4 months. Although I've had less problems now than I used to.

The last time I had to do it because of a guide problem was because all of my OTA HD stations got very confused. Instead of station 5-1 or 7-1, I was seeing 511 or 711 in the guide. The guide would have the program information for 5-1, but was trying to tune in 511. Something in the broadcast info must have been screwey and it caused all sorts of trouble.

Whenever I've any problem with the guide, the first thing I do is delete the Scheduled recordings and power down for a few minutes. Most problems seem to be cleared up by this procedure.

I agree that corrupted incoming guide data is probably the source of most of the intermittent problems that we experience. The 451 models seem more resistant to these malfunctions. OTOH, satellite receivers made by LG are remarkably stable, so maybe there's an inherent problem in the Gemstar system.

Given that you need to send your unit back to LG for a firmware upgrade, and I haven't had any issues, I'm prone to just leave mine at 1.15 unless there's something absolutely Earth-shattering that 1.17 addresses...

I haven't been able to detect any difference so far between my two units, one with 1.15 and one with 1.17. In fact, last night they both failed to turn off as scheduled at 10PM(CDT). Neither had ever done this before, perhaps validating my theory that corrupt incoming guide data makes these things misbehave. The "purity" of the Gemstar signal from the local provider may be more important than anything LG has done with their succession of firmware updates.

Originally posted by UncD2000
I haven't been able to detect any difference so far between my two units, one with 1.15 and one with 1.17. In fact, last night they both failed to turn off as scheduled at 10PM(CDT). Neither had ever done this before, perhaps validating my theory that corrupt incoming guide data makes these things misbehave. The "purity" of the Gemstar signal from the local provider may be more important than anything LG has done with their succession of firmware updates.

UncD2000, could you please check and see if 1.17 allows AV1 or AV2 to be used for timer recording?

No, all three versions I have experienced behave pretty much the same. Even though the "Invalid Channel" message appears, it seems to accept the scheduling of AV1 or AV2, and two minutes before the scheduled time, the unit does turn on. The display never switches to AV, however, and within a minute the green "reserved" light turns off and the unit shuts off.

Originally posted by UncD2000
The "purity" of the Gemstar signal from the local provider may be more important than anything LG has done with their succession of firmware updates.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I've followed this thread since I bought my 3410a over a year ago (firmware v1.12), and that's the only valid conclusion I can make. My unit will go for months with no trouble, and then I will have to reboot it weekly to get it back on track (it seems like Sunday night/Monday morning is a good time to get back on track). Now that they're up to firmware v1.17, I've contemplated sending mine in for an update, but I'm not convinced it will really matter.

Wife just pointed out a problem that happened tonight, but she thinks happened once before...

Two Back to Back scheduled recordings (8P-9P, followed by 9P-10P on the same HD channel). During these scheduled recordings she was watching a tape.

8-9P recorded. 9-10P didn't, but when she looked at DVR panel at 10:45P it said it was recording. She told it to stop, and continued watching her tape.

When she switched over to DVR, 8-9P recording was there, 9-10P wasn't, and the record that she 'stopped' at 10:45 wasn't there, either.

She remembers something very simelar to this happening before. I don't.

This sound familiar? Suggestions?

On possibly two of the 2003 (351) units that I returned to LG, recordings that were definitely completed would occasionally disappear. About 50% of the time they would pop up when I tried to access another recorded program. Both (one hour) programs would be stored under one title, with only one hour running time shown.

I have had six different 3410A units overall, and every one displayed this problem occasionally: a partial lockup at initial turnon, with no access to the guide or VCR+ screen. The green "reserved" light will be lit although nothing is scheduled. Sometimes the "Invalid Channel" message appears, but usually not. Usually manual recording and playback are available and channel can be changed, but sometimes the only button that functions is On/Off. A brief unplug will restore normal operation. My current theory is that corrupted incoming guide data causes these lockups.

Unc,

That has happened twice to me with my current 451 unit. BTW, I still am looking for a 300GB Maxtor QV.

Go to
http://www.etech4sale.com/storage/partinfo-id-117479.html
The drive is the same as the QV. I got one of these and a QV from buy.com and they are both marked QV. MAxitor rep also confirmed theyare the same drive. Just set it up as a master and you are in business.

Hi all ,
I have been following this thread for a few days and picked up a 3410 (open box unit) at Good Guys Thursday. got a good price (<600).

Main reason is my previous receivers (2 pshd105 (proscan version of the DTC 100)) and a toshiba 3000 set top have problems with Multipath.

So far it's working well. I have comcast basic and am also receiving the QAM HDTV stations locally , as well as InHD and some on demand stuff without problems. Picture is good...and OTA is much more sensitive...I can now lock all but the local NBC station OTA. I never did get the other set tops to lock that, as well as the PBS and Fox were very iffy..

so gain two OTA.

by the way I find that the OTA signals look cleaner than the cable signals.
More pixelation on cable. Maybe because the signal is TOO high?

but the inability to record AV1 and 2 via timer is something that may be a deal breaker.
FW is 1.15. 451 model with a DEC 04 build date if I'm reading the label correctly.

Anyway, is it definite that this is NOT going to be implemented.? I haven't registered the product yet since I may return the unit. Has anyone talked to LG about this? (sorry I haven't read the ENTIRE thread)

My main reasons (beside the multipath) were the ability to record HD to the drive ( which I hope to transport to a PC using the vividlogic application and then burn to DVD) and the other equipment I have.

4DTV with HDD 200, connected to Mit 65907 component input as main TV.
Since the picture quality of the 4DTV is so good I usually watch it and just watch cable when I'm not paying attention to the picture (movie channels on 4D are clearer and the HDD200 gives me all of the HD movie channels)
currently I record to a Pansonic DMRE80H via svideo (except HD).

I also have the proscan version of the RCA MM36100, which requires a SVGA input. The DTC was hooked to it. I have hooked the LG to it and get a reasonable picture (although I will have to do some service menu stuff to get the video centered horizontally). But it looks feasible.

My thought was to use the LG as the settop for the main house and buy a LST 4200 for the MM36100. Move the panasonic to the 36100.
But if the unit won't timer record the AV1 or 2 then I can't move the panasonic...OR i have to get the HDD200 169time modded to record it. More money than I want to invest.

Also , speaking of that has anyone used the LG to record firewire source on a timer?
sorry, I know that has probably been asked and answered.

Scott Miller

Originally posted by Scott Miller


My thought was to use the LG as the settop for the main house and buy a LST 4200 for the MM36100. Move the panasonic to the 36100.
But if the unit won't timer record the AV1 or 2 then I can't move the panasonic...OR i have to get the HDD200 169time modded to record it. More money than I want to invest.

Also , speaking of that has anyone used the LG to record firewire source on a timer?
sorry, I know that has probably been asked and answered.

Scott Miller

It's a long thread, I know.

If you get your HDD-200 modified by the 169time guy, you can use the timer on the 4DTV unit. You would get the 3410a to lock on the firewire signal from the HDD-200. You would know you have a lock, because you would be able to view hi-def programs from the 4DTV unit using the 3410a. Then you program your timer for th 4DTV and turn the 4DTV off and leave the HDD-200 on. Then you use the LG remote to hit the record button on the virtual on-screen firewire controller. The HDD-200 will keep the firewire connection open, but the LG will not record anything to the hard drive until it sees programming coming through the firewire port. This only happens when the 4DTV wakes up, and sends a signal to the HDD-200, which decodes the HD signal and then sends a signal via firewire to the 3410a.

It's a lot easier than I just made it sound.

I have my standard def 4DTV programming hooked up to AV1 on the LG for recording; however, I do not know if one can do something similar with delayed standard def programming with the LG DVR. If it's a program I really want to keep, I would just pass the AV signal through the LG to my DVD recorder anyway to avoid the second digital to analog conversion. If I did that, I would just use the timer on my DVD recorder for delayed recording.

What kind of hard drive replacements are most successful--- quick view, other 5400rpm,7200rpm, 400gb etc. ???

I've been trying to find a MAXTOR 300GB QV unsucessfully for 2 months. OUT OF STOCK!!!!!!!!!

Hi Art,

I ordered mine from PC Connection shortly after you and I communicated about them some time ago. The last update I got was that they were expected in on April 7. I suspect your vendor gets them from the same supplier, so maybe they'll show up soon.

If you haven't ordered one yet, or if your vendor doesn't come through, PC Connection may have some extras to sell. When they informed me of the delay a couple of weeks after I placed my order, I had just ordered my backup 3410a, so I asked if I could increase my order to two drives, and they increased the order without flinching.

Can anyone tell me if the larger drive generates significantly more heat than the smaller one? I'm debating whether to install a fan while I've got the 3410a apart.

did you get a Maxtor QV delivered to you?

Bah! Humbug! I went to the "Where's my stuff?" area at PC Connection and found out they are still listed as back ordered. I sent an inquiry to my cust service agent and will pass along the update.

Originally posted by phitz
What kind of hard drive replacements are most successful--- quick view, other 5400rpm,7200rpm, 400gb etc. ???

I have been using the MAXTOR 300GB 5400rpm QV for over 2 months now, 35 hours of record time and works great.

Mike

I've seen a lot of comments on how this is a real short coming of the 3410A, and I must admit it has me puzzled. The AV inputs are composite and any recording you would make will be of low quality. I stopped recording from composite sources 10 years ago and have never missed the ability. Perhaps it is just me, but the PQ of what I've seen via the 3410A's AV inputs is nothing to write home about. Or maybe it is projecting them on a 96" screen.

The real issue is that there are no S-Video inputs - but we all knew this before we bought.

I bought a JVC D-VHS deck so I could (among other things) record D* or other inputs via S-Video. When used this way, the D-VHS deck makes much better looking recordings then I could ever get from the AV inputs and provides a method for long term timeshifting of HD material. The DVHS deck is connected to the 3410A via a firewire connection, so you can watch whatever you've taped via the 3410A. Interesting to note that you cannot copy analog tapes to the 3410A, though.

Originally posted by Hyrax
[B]Perhaps it is just me, but the PQ of what I've seen via the 3410A's AV inputs is nothing to write home about./B] I agree. I get noticeably better results by recording external sources to DVD via S-video (and DVD recorders do permit timer recording from external inputs).

I agree with everything Hyrax and UncD2000 said above. I chose the route I did partially because I would have better luck recording a 3-3 1/2 hour football game, something I would most likely dump once I watched it anyway. It made more sense to put it on a hard drive rather than use a tape or use a recordable DVD with the quality setting set down to accomodate the length of the game. I figure for the relatively infrequent times I would want to go straight to a DVD I could live with the lesser quality of a video cable.

The composite cable going through the LG looks way better than s-video going throught the HDD-200, but I'm sure we agree that that is more of a statement about the HDD-200's scaler than the LG's.

Originally posted by Scott Miller
[Also , speaking of that has anyone used the LG to record firewire source on a timer?
[/B]

Scott -
I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I have the feeling that you cannot. I believe all timer recording on the 3410A has to come in via the antenna or cable inputs.

Is it possible to connect two LS-3410As via firewire and copy material from one hard drive to the other?

-James

Originally posted by wilsonsoohoo
I chose the route I did partially because I would have better luck recording a 3-3 1/2 hour football game, something I would most likely dump once I watched it anyway. It made more sense to put it on a hard drive rather than use a tape or use a recordable DVD with the quality setting set down to accomodate the length of the game.Good point. It reminded me that the Timeshift function works on the 3410A AV inputs, and most DVD recorders lack this ability.