ART: I don't have proof, but if you've got 3 of them, and none are getting TVG data, I'm betting that the station that was you V7 TVG feed has stopped transmitting that data...

Art, send me an note with your city and ZIP and station/channel where you used to get TVG data (If you know it).

I'll see if I can find out...

[QUOTE=Jan J]I don't have proof, but if you've got 3 of them, and none are getting TVG data, I'm betting that the station that was you V7 TVG feed has stopped transmitting that data...

Maybe I wasn't clear. The TVG data is and always has been sporadic. My problem is that the HD signal itself is getting significantly weaker. I only have one LST3410A, but my TV has a built in HD tuner, and I have a standalone Sylvania HD tuner box. Both of them have trouble getting a signal as well.

wlellis: Something a Tech once told me about getting TVG data on 3410a: Turn on Closed Captioning on the LG3410a, on the TV Channel you receive TVG data on...... SD channel, not HD.

Short transgression into tech-speak: V7 TVG data is transmitted on line 15 and line 278 (Line 15 F1/F2) of SD transmissions only. The LG3410a does not have the capability to decode off HDTV transmissions. For those with a scope and the inclination, it will look somewhat like Closed Captioning (On Line 21 on both F1/F2), but higher in frequency... I'll try and get a picture of what it looks like and post it someday....

If the SD picture is good, and closed captioning has no random odd characters, you will probably get clean TVG data.
If the Closed Captioning (CC) data has random odd characters/many mis-spelling of words, then the TVG data will also be corrupt.

In that case, (Poor CC receiptions on your TVG data Channel) your only option is to increase the signal strength of the TVG channel (antenna/preamp/less ghosting)

Hi Art,
That's quite a system you've got there. Does it also butter your toast? Anyway I did diagnostics twice on the 3410 and I get HostCh 0x0 which I'll assume means channel 0 which translates to no local station transmitting TVGOS info, or at least no V7. The guide has "No Listing." Unless anyone here can hack this machine or we can get newer versions of TVGOS firmware installed (yeah right), my 3410 will just be a 1394 to component/DVI converter for my DVHS machine.

I've also had mixed success with manually tuning the 3410 to my TVG channel (in my case 28-0) before I turn it off.

wlellis: Something a Tech once told me about getting TVG data on 3410a: Turn on Closed Captioning on the LG3410a, on the TV Channel you receive TVG data on...... SD channel, not HD.

In that case, (Poor CC receiptions on your TVG data Channel) your only option is to increase the signal strength of the TVG channel (antenna/preamp/less ghosting)

Makes perfect sense Jan. Although that's not the be all and end all advice since, in many cases, CC looked perfect while the box decided it didn't want to lock up on the guide data.

I'm still convinced, based on your extensive research, and my not so extensive research, that stations and/or Gemstar just don't always send the data properly. I've haven't spoken with my Gemstar tech rep lately, but we know that there were issues with bad guide data being sent by at least one station in Chicago. When Gemstar shut them off (don't know if they've been turned back on yet) my guide data problems pretty much disappeared. I've been locked to your station for months now without issue. Periodically, when the box locked to my station, there weren't any issues either. But locking up to the other station (that got shut off), especially via a cable connection, caused regular problems.

Until I get around to posting a picture of TVG data:

More Tech-speak:
On Line 15 and 278 (Line 15 of Field 1 and Field 2), after sync and color burst, there will be 6 cycles with an amplitude of 80 IRE lasting about 1/3 of the horizontal line width, followed by three stationary 80IRE pulses equally spaced, each about 2-3us (micro seconds) in length that fill out the remainder of the horizontal line of video.

In between the three stationary pulses will be two packets of TVG Data, (also at 80 IRE)that vary in frequency and rate. I've been told the 6 cycles lock an oscillator, the three pulses are start and end indicators, and the stuff in between the 3 is the TVG Data.

Now all I have to do is scan this picture and post it.... Hopefully tomorrow....

Who got bumped? :)!

Jan et al,

Miracle....After several months without either station listings or Program listings both machines listed all the cable SD and HD stations. This is not what had happened in the past but hell, I'll take it. The next night, on machine brought down the local Digital OTA stations but the other machine, with the 1.15 software, did not. The first machine last night downloaded dprogram listings. I am shocked. The second machine has not. Maybe tomorrow.

BTW, in answer to your request Jan, I am at ZIP 21035, I am in Davidsonville, MD. I receive OTA from Washington, DC and Baltimore stations and from Comcast Cable, Annapolis.

My third unit is at my father's in Kensington, MD. He does not use the guide.

Before I forget to do it, here is what line 15 should look like.

The spaces in between the 3 pulses after the sine wave are where the data would go. This pic shows line 15 without data.

Art, can you tell me which stations you believe are sending TVG V7? I just want to have all info before calling.

Jan et al,
Miracle....After several months without either station listings or Program listings both machines listed all the cable SD and HD stations. This is not what had happened in the past but hell, I'll take it. ... I am shocked.
Well all of a sudden I'm getting 'No Listing'. Comcast has definitely been doing something with their broadcasts locally. I can tell because stations that once had accidentally been clear QAM are now encrypted. Specifically, Starz-HD is now encrypted (not much of a loss because in all the years I was getting it I don't remember watching a single movie). I mention this because when they started encrypting the channels coincides with when I lost the guide listings.

I wonder if they changed the guide channel? Can anyone remind me how I find the guide channel and how I tell the 3410A to clear it? I wrote it down, but lost the paper.

Thanks.

I believe the info is coming from PBS WETA CH 6 on analog cable, 26 OTA and 26.1HD and 123.1 HD on the 3410A.

BTW, I find that if i am in the Guide moving around fast, the machine will lock up. FWIW

Does anyone think that this might have something to do with the major broadcast networks fall to spring seasons ended as I myself have experienced the same problems since then that others are reporting?

Powerful,

NO!!!!!!! But I am sorry about your problem.

Powerful, I agree with Art. My guide problems started around the first of June when my local Comcast made some significant changes to how their lineup. This was well after the season finales.

Hyrax,

Now I have one box working perfectly, the one with 1.15. The 1.17 box gets no listings but it did get the stations sort of...... By that i mean it listed the cable station numbers. Never happened before but there it is. The other box downloaded the normal cable and next night the local OTA. This is so wierd.

BTW, I also lost some of the free PPV stations. "TEN" is gone also.

Art-
I too am getting stations, but the time slots all say something like "No listing". I think that maybe there is a disconnect between the 3410A station numbers and those used by Comcast. I'm going to try to clear everything and scan again.

Tim

Isn't it rather risky to put a phone number here on the forum? I believe that is what a PM is for, right?

Thanks for looking out for me POWERFUL. I deleted it. Let me say though that Hyrax and I had a great conversation about our mutual problems with the 3410. There is another forum I participate in that deals with TVRO. We have a barbecue every summer to celebrate the hobby.

This group should consider a similar event....Perhaps a book burning where LG's promises in the Warranty book are put to rest. Just kidding of course but looking back, we sure have been plagued with a multitude of issues from day 1.

Hyrax et al,

After our talk, I checked to make sure local cabl channels 6 and 7, PBS 26 and ABC 7, were listed on both machines. The offending machine had loaded the wrong number the last time it scanned. I believe you said you had to reset also. I set it correctly and this morning I was given a 10 option choice. I selected the appropriate one and VOILA, I had program listings for the analog stations on the previously offending PVR. Tomorrow I expect the local OTA digital statins will come down and I will reset them to the corresponding cable stations the way i normally do. WOW after 3 months without anything, I am up again. Our conversation was very helpful HYRAX. Thanks.

Art-
Great news! You've got to watch those wascally wabbits at Comcast; they'll try to give you the wrong numbers again in a few weeks.

My "No Listing" problem continues, although I have hope that they'll soon be over... I just look at the Guide Setup and noticed that somehow my zip code had been changed to some random number.

I tried Jan J's suggestion of turning on Closed Captioning to remedy the Guide problems & it seems to have worked. Or, it could have been my rescanning of channels or eliminating a few channels in Channel Edit. Either way, Guide info is good to go. Until next time...

Hyrax,

Can't wait till morning to see if I get the local OTA digitals. With that, I will be back in business and 2 of my 3 units will be working perfectly. My third unit is at my father's and he does not use the guide or the recorder.

Hyrax, Try doing the reset I suggested. When you are done, rescan to include the PBS and ABC analog locals on cable. Use the cable number for the analogs. Maybe it will work. Comcast has done something again. Maybe we can get another month out of them. I look forward to the Fall season when on any given night i have 3 3410's, 1 MyHD130 card, 2 JVC SVHS recorders with TBC and an LG LST-4200 running. Addd to that my C Band satellite and I record enough every night during the week that I don't have to get up from my chair from Saturday at 6:00 AM to Sunday night at 11:00PM. Now, if I can just figure out how to deposit my waste products without leaving the comfort of my easy chair. Oh Yeah....I have to eat damn it. While eating, I watch SVHS tapes on my 15" Sony KV-1500 from 1971. It still produces a gorgeous NTSC picture. Good luck my friend.

Again, as I've stated before most problems are caused by the hard drives. Replace with something no larger than 160 to 180 gigs. Make sure all your wire connections are secure and your problems may just go away.

raneil,

Please elaborate on why you believe large hard drives are the cause of most problems. That does not agree with my experience. I have 3 machines. Two have the original drives and the third has a 300GB drive of the type required. All of my machines misbehave in the same way. It is not heat so please don't go there.

I would agree that many of the problems are caused by aging drives, as I made some go away by replacing them; however, I've got 300 GB and 400 GB drives in all my 3410a's and they work fine. I think most of the problem Art has now and the guys in Chicagoland used to have are guide transmission related.

Wilson,

I you are absolutely correct. My problems appear to be guide connected. I just don't understand why after a few days of trouble free operation, I get the list with 10 choices of different lineups to choose from. That starts the whole cycle od downloading and resetting. Also, almost daily, I have to unplug/replug or the machines lock up. Not just one, but all three act the same way. Go Figure.

I believe that when the drive is not working optimally, it begins to drive more power thereby causing system failure. Smaller 7200 rpm drives with their faster start up not will lead to recording failure. A larger drive dose not allow the DVR enough time to turn on and setup for record ( approximately 18 or more H.D. recording hours) unless you keep the DVR on 24/7. Other than heat buildup and burning your hard drive and chips, you can not download new programming. I believe larger drives also tax the DVR operating system by drawing more power and system failure.

raneil,

You may be correct but I have no evidence that a 3010 equipped with a 300GB Quickview drive performs differently than one equipped with the original 120 GB Quickview. As I said, both of my machines require resetting almost daily and sometimes several times a day. It all seems to be tied to the GUIDE downloads.

I have almost filled the 300GB HD without any adverse effects in the past. One point you make seems to have some basis in fact. My machines appear to be getting more susceptible to failure the older they become. I run mine every day between 4-8 hours. Times 3-4 years. Wow, I am amazed they stiil work.

I know not everyone has money to buy every little thing someone recommends and I know that returning a hard drive to a seller is almost impossible unless you have membership to someone like Costco. But if you can afford a small 160gb W.D. caviar EIDE hard drive I believe, you will be happy with the results. I think if you do elect to do so, I would advise you to get extensioners and get the H.D. out of the box into a cooler enviroment. I say this because I have had multiple drive failures which I believe were caused by heat inside the enclosure.

Like I saidd, I don't believe the HD is the problem in my units. You must have gotten one of the two units I returne to LG that failed due to heat.

I've been laying low since the post on the WD 250Gb drive "resetting the 3410a". Whereas the new drive worked fine, the symptoms of the drive resetting the box to the "Hello" message didn't sit well with me, but it appeared to be the fix......

Back on the Seagate 120Gb drive ran well for a week or two, then it started acting up the same way... Booting to the "Hello" message from within a record or playback. Not Good!

Seemed to follow disk access... I eventually started seeing "Boot Loops" when just sitting there...

Looking at the schematics, the CPU and Reset circuitry are on the 3.3V supply. The 3.3V supply is fed by 3.8V supply, which isn't much headroom for power supply bumps, no matter what regulator you have. Then I remembered with John T. said: "Less problems on battery backup UPS system" (I had bought one about a year ago, and confirmed less resets needed when on UPS system). Hmmm! Maybe resets and lockups were power bumps?

So I re-capped the power supply...... (Didn't have enought for all supplies, and to be fair, didn't see any caps that were marginal with the ESR meter.....
That was about a week ago (Still on 120Gb drive), and wife hasn't had an issue since.

Late last week my boss brought in a Zenith 230 (Predecessor of the 3410a) and it would not boot. I don't have schematics on this one (ANYONE ELSE HAVE THEM??) but the power supply is somewhat simelar to the 3410a.... The caps on the 3.8V & 3.3V supply (and Others) WERE SHOWING MARGINAL on an ESR meter, and so I re-capped that supply with as many replacements as I could find.

(on both the one I have at home, and my boss's, the smaller 100uf and 330uf caps on the output of supply were changed to 1000uf on the 3.3v, 5v, ,9v, 12v).

Boss's Zenith 230 booted right up then, and appears fine now!!!

SO.... It appears that our beloved boxes can have issues with the power supplies BEFORE the caps will show to be marginal on an ESR meter!!! This would indicate (to me) that the amount of power filtering may not be sufficient.... (supported further by John T's and my findings that a UPS system will reduce the number of resets a 3410a will need.)..

I have more caps on order (To finish the re-capping job), and will run this for a few weeks before returning the 250Gb WD drive (which arrived yesterday) to the 3410a...

Wow, Jan, that's excellent information!

For those of us (read: me) who are electronically challenged, can you post pictures and procedures on what to do and how to do it?

Jan,

I wonder if the fact that I have so many devices on the same circuit is causing my problems with the 2 machines. Perhaps turning on the ADCOM 5802 could be dropping the voltage enough to cause a glitch with the Guide Info. My 2 correct with an unplug/replug 90% of the time. Then there's the other 10%. These take days to recover. Still love it though. It tis the best source I own next to the BluRay and C Band satellite 922 and HDD200

Dang Jan,

I'm calling you before I call LG if I ever have a problem . . .

Can one use a basic multimeter to check caps?

Not unless they are Electrolytics nd even then all you will see is if they have shorted. You need a capacitance meter to provide the kind of results Jan is describing. I "borrowed" one from the old National Bureau of Standards, my first employer. Hopefully, after 40 years, they have given up trying to find it.

ESR is Equivalent Series Resistance. With regard to electrolytic caps, it measures how efficient the electrolyte is in the cap. A dried out electolytic cap will not filter a power supply well, nor couple a signal to the next stage.
Nice thing about this device is it measures the cap IN CIRCUIT!!!! No de-soldering unless you are going to replace it!
I'm suspecting that the caps dry out somewhat, and since this is a switching supply the switching noise is not filtered as well, and then 'rides' on the DC of the supply and causes havoc in the circuitry. In my boss's case, it wouldn't boot. Of the two systems, my unit's caps measured nearly perfect on the ESR meter, but my boss's measured marginal.... which was my reason for posting above that maybe (Maybe) the filtering on the supply is a bit marginal, as when the caps begin to dry out (High ESR) strange problems appear... (I'm posting a hunch!)

Actually, I think it may be a blessing in disguise that I stumbled onto 2 of simelar devices showing the same issues: My 2nd unit randomly rebooting, and my boss's which wouldn't even boot!!! (It was a pain to try and determine which cap belonged to which supply on the predecessor to the 3410a, using a schematic for the 3410a suppply, though!!!) :)!

In order to measure ESR, you need a special device.... I did a search on the internet and found this.... I haven't used this unit, I have a slightly different circuit that I built...
(By the way, I am in no way associated with this link.... I posted it for informational purposes)

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

Also, the caps I used for replacement were all 105Deg C caps, that are made for switching supplies, and can deal with high ripple currents. I'm known for over-designing things when I build, so I always replace a 10V cap with 16v, 16v with 25v, etc., and always use high Temperature caps. Costs more, though....

SO.... It appears that our beloved boxes can have issues with the power supplies BEFORE the caps will show to be marginal on an ESR meter!!! This would indicate (to me) that the amount of power filtering may not be sufficient.... (supported further by John T's and my findings that a UPS system will reduce the number of resets a 3410a will need.)..

I have more caps on order (To finish the re-capping job), and will run this for a few weeks before returning the 250Gb WD drive (which arrived yesterday) to the 3410a...

While not brand new, these units aren't all that old either. I'm really surprised that caps are/could be failing already. Your replacement of the caps seems to indicate that they are, but it seems to me that, unless LG used really chintzy caps, they shouldn't be failing this early in their product life.

Interesting...

I wonder if the fact that I have so many devices on the same circuit is causing my problems with the 2 machines. Perhaps turning on the ADCOM 5802 could be dropping the voltage enough to cause a glitch with the Guide Info. My 2 correct with an unplug/replug 90% of the time. Then there's the other 10%. These take days to recover. Still love it though. It tis the best source I own next to the BluRay and C Band satellite 922 and HDD200

I doubt that having many devices on one circuit would cause a voltage drop (unless you have really lousy wiring). However, all of these modern electronic devices use switching power supplies that can throw harmonics back into the power line. Each device, no doubt, "switches" at a different frequency which could be throwing all sorts of harmonics onto your AC power. The harmonics could be interfering, so to speak, with the standard 60 Hz AC signal which could, in effect, cause mini-brown outs and/or other types of voltage problems.

These are issues that huge data centers (or broadcast facilities) need to deal with. We're throwing all sorts of AC technology (special PDUs and transformers) that are good at eliminating these harmonics so that they don't affect other equipment. Generally house wiring isn't designed to handle large loads like this. Good quality UPS systems can help with this as well as deal with voltage brown-outs or outright failure.

John.... Kal's Zenith HR 230 Power supply caps DID show marginal on the ESR meter, though caps from my unit didn't. I'm not extremely surprised, as large value (1000uf or +) caps can check good on an ESR meter, when they are just starting to dry out, which is exactly what I encountered.
On both the HR 230 and 3410a supplies, I found that the caps nearest the switching transformer were 105 Deg Caps, but the caps fruther from the transformer were 85 deg caps... I replaced ALL caps with 105 Degree, High Ripple caps.

Time will tell, but Kal's unit worked the rest of the day after the power supply rebuild.... and wife spent entire evening viewing her recordings off 'DVR2', and she reported absolutely no problems.

As an aside, during the problem with reboots, there was no problems with Gemstar data on our DVR2. I can't speak for my boss's unit as the menu structure is far different.

John.... Kal's Zenith HR 530 Power supply caps DID show marginal on the ESR meter, though caps from my unit didn't. I'm not extremely surprised, as large value (1000uf or +) caps can check good on an ESR meter, when they are just starting to dry out, which is exactly what I encountered.
On both the HR 530 and 3410a supplies, I found that the caps nearest the switching transformer were 105 Deg Caps, but the caps fruther from the transformer were 85 deg caps... I replaced ALL caps with 105 Degree, High Ripple caps.

Time will tell, but Kal's unit worked the rest of the day after the power supply rebuild.... and wife spent entire evening viewing her recordings off 'DVR2', and she reported absolutely no problems.

As an aside, during the problem with reboots, there was no problems with Gemstar data on our DVR2. I can't speak for my boss's unit as the menu structure is far different.

Well, I guess it's not surprising that Kal's older unit is starting to show its age. Didn't those Zenith units come out 2 or 3 years before their cousins came out? Still, I'm surprised that the LG units are showing problems already. They either used lower quality caps or undersized them which is stressing causing early failure.

Jan,

While I bow to your intimate knowledge and familiarity with these machines, I find it hard to believe that capacitors are failing after only 3 years of use. I have several components that date back to 1971 that work perfectly including a television and an FM tuner. My problem is definitely associated with bad or missing guide info. not voltage spikes. Last night I subjected the system to a torture test. With both house AC units running and every piece of hiFi and video gear including a 300 watt bulb in the projector, on the same circuit, I switched on the ADCOM 5802 300W/ Ch while the LG's were running. While other components of my system blinked or reset themselves, both LG's ran beautifully without a glitch. They were in record mode. I have 200 amp service in my home which is what most folks have today. It looks like I have 15 Amp Breakers with 12 Gauge Romex feeding the juice to my 9 room 400 sq ft house. BTW, besides the 2 AC units that each pull about 7 Amps, the water heater was demanding electricity during my test and the 600 watt Velodyne 18" sub was on. I really tried to elicit a power related failure. The units that reset were a Zektrn 4 in 1 out component switcher and my Sony EP9ES PrePro.

Jan,

While I bow to your intimate knowledge and familiarity with these machines, I find it hard to believe that capacitors are failing after only 3 years of use. I have several components that date back to 1971 that work perfectly including a television and an FM tuner.I can believe it. Like you, I have some old electronic devices that just keep working. But I've also seen electrolytic caps go slowly bad in much less time. Where I used to work we had a 40x40 video/audio router that apparently had been made with a bad batch of a certain value and brand of capacitor. There were 4 of these caps on each video output board, and 40 boards. We learned to recognize the symptoms of one or more of these caps going bad (high ripple in the video) and we always found at least one cap with high ESR. At first we just replaced the bad ones, but soon learned to replace all 4. And maybe the caps on other output boards if we had the time. If they werent bad yet, they soon would be. We never had a problem with the replacement caps, the other, different-valued caps on the board or elsewhere in the router, even some made by the same company.

I got my Digi-Key cap order yesterday, and replacement drive earlier in the week, but I'm just cooling my heals for the time being... Letting the Wife exercising 'DVR2' and she says it's still solid. I broke it to her last night that not all the caps were changed (I ran out), and when I swap drive, I'll finish re-capping the supply. Yesterday at work I needed to test a HD component to HDSDI converter, so I pulled my boss's re-capped unit out and used component output to test the HD converter.

OK... After my wife watched the last two shows on DVR2, I pulled it and Re-Capped the rest of secondary side of the power supply tonight, and also went back to a 250Gb WD drive. It was quite warm in there, and I had previously put 3/8" spacers on all feet to increase cooling.
Based on this.....
Pulled a couple small variable speed fans from a drive cooler from old computer, and taped the temperature sensor on top of the WD drive, along with one fan blowing out the top, and the other one out the rear where vents for a fan are stamped into the metalwork.
Set it for an 8:30 - 9:00PM recording, and it worked fine...
Let's hope I don't need to go into it again! :)!

P.S. It's my opinion that the heat of the heat sinks are drying out the caps adjacent to them... The 3.3V & 3.8V supply caps are wedged in between two sets of heat sinks, so they are getting dried out from heat on both sides...
This is the unit I bought used over a year ago, and previous owner had sent it back to LG once for repair and firmware upgrade, so I don't really know HOW OLD it is.

Hi Jan,

Mine have been working "perfectly" for several weeks. For my 2 units, this means that recordings occur as planned using both timer and Guide scheduling. It also means that if I do not observe a white guide light sometime during afternoon daylight hours (yes redundant, sorry), I will unplug/replug, turn on and off. This turns on the guide light and resets the clock to the absolute correct time.

In terms of audio settings for your machine, which do you use, PCM or Dolby Digital? If I use PCM my receiver will decode the HD soundtrack as DPLIIx and the soundstage collapses, whereas Dolby Digital will be the same as any regular HD broadcast. SD programming with the Dolby Digital setting will be decoded as PLIIx which is fine. Does anyone use PCM and get the full 5.1 soundtrack?

I use DD via an optical line to my Zektor 4 in 1 out switch. The out of the switch goes to input 4 on my Sony ESP9ES Pre/Pro DD decoder. The path from switcher to PrePro is via coax (SPDIF).

You did not ask but to be complete...the video from both units travels to my Optoma VXD 3000 scaler/switcher via a DVI to HDMI cable. The video from the LG LST 4200 digital tuner travels via component (YPrPb) to the VXD3000. I only have 3 HDMI inputs on the VXD 3000 and one is used for the BluRay player. The component input is indistinguishable from the HDMI on my 96" wide screen. The Optoma HD81 upscales everything to 1080p. With the BluRay I watch everything HD in 1080p 24 fps.

Thanks for the info MrHiFi. I meant for the question to be a general one for all members of the thread but I worded it wrong. My mistake. Nevertheless it sounds like you have a great video system. Someday I will also have 1080p/24...

... If I use PCM my receiver will decode the HD soundtrack as DPLIIx and the soundstage collapses...
I'm not sure what you mean. Can you explain this a bit more, please?

I've an old receiver that doesn't support DPLIIx, just good old Dolby ProLogic...which is stereo. I thought that when you select PCM OUT then the source does the decoding, whereas when you select Bitstream OUT then the receiver does the decoding. But I could be wrong.

Hyrax,

You got it my friend. Some of the HD DVD and BluRay machines send a downgraded version of the PCM down the optical or coaxial line but it is definitely not as good as the uncompressedd PCM. Like you, I have DD and DTS but I look foeward to the new NAD175 I have on order.

Art, I thought I was the only one on this forum who's A/V gear was built in the last millennium! Like yourself, I'm in the market for an update. The Arcam AVR-350 looks like the one I'll be getting, although I'm waiting for reviews on the new Onkyo/Intergra DTC-9.8 Pre Pro before buying the Arcam. Althought I've read all the arguments why you do not need HDMI 1.3, it seems crazy not to buy something that supports it.

A couple things.... I went back and edited my recent posts to change the model number..... I did another of my famous "Typo's, and I'm sorry for any confusion it may have caused....

References to the "Earlier" DVR from Zenith is referring to the Zenith HR230, NOT what I had posted....

Any reference to a 530 is incorrect, I meant HR 230, which is the predecessor to the 3410a.

(Oh, and yes, I did scrounge up a manual).

Both units that were re-capped are working flawlessly...

This is the unit I bought used over a year ago, and previous owner had sent it back to LG once for repair and firmware upgrade, so I don't really know HOW OLD it is.Most ICs have a date code, and if most of the different ones on a board are of about the same age, it's a fair bet that the board was made not too long after that. For example, in my 3410A, IC116-119 are dated 0337, meaning they were made in the 37th week of 2003. IC132 is 0335 and IC129 is 0346. That's mid November. There might be later ones; I didn't check thoroughly, but my guess is that it was made in late 2003 or early 2004. I bought it new in April 2004.

To ebo, an interesting thing to note. Now we can all see how "old" our machines are.
To Hyrax, the way I understood using uncompressed PCM was that it's used to get lossless sound from digital sources like our 3410's & DVD players & that receivers & preamp/processors would still decode the soundtrack. Instead of compressed formats like DD & DTS we'd still get multichannel surround sound which would be "CD quality" or something close(r) to it. Maybe I have to manually choose which surround format to use. MrHiFi explains it well.
To MrHiFi & Hyrax, I still have a laserdisc player from 1997. :D

Good Point, ebo! Next time I'm in there, I'll check!

To Hyrax, the way I understood using uncompressed PCM was that it's used to get lossless sound from digital sources like our 3410's & DVD players & that receivers & preamp/processors would still decode the soundtrack. Instead of compressed formats like DD & DTS we'd still get multichannel surround sound which would be "CD quality" or something close(r) to it. Maybe I have to manually choose which surround format to use.

Well that is where I get a bit lost with what you were asking. The broadcast coming to the 3410A is either DD or Stereo. There is no 'uncompressed' audio track in the broadcast signal, just DD. So when you say send the audio out via PCM, the source (the 3410A) has to take the DD track and recode it into something. What it gets recoded into in your case is something like Dolby Prologic IIx. And then your receiver says 'Ah. DPLIIx, I can decode that' and goes ahead and does so. At least that is my understanding.

and, if you still use your laserdisk, does that mean you've got a collection of every possible released version of T2 and Star Wars (Han Solo shot first!)? :o) If so, I'm jealous...

Art, I thought I was the only one on this forum who's A/V gear was built in the last millennium! Like yourself, I'm in the market for an update. The Arcam AVR-350 looks like the one I'll be getting, although I'm waiting for reviews on the new Onkyo/Intergra DTC-9.8 Pre Pro before buying the Arcam. Althought I've read all the arguments why you do not need HDMI 1.3, it seems crazy not to buy something that supports it.

I keep kicking the Pre/Pro thing around. Integra has a lousy reputation in the C Band satellite market. Also, our Korean experience has not been whatI would call stellar. Please help me to find a prepro that will strip off the sound stuff period.

Hyrax,

when I thought about it it's obvious that there's no uncompressed PCM bitstream coming from any broadcaster. It should be a simple idea that with all the video data being passed through the cable system (no FiOS out here yet) uncompressed PCM shouldn't even begin to enter one's mind. As for the laserdiscs, I only have Star Wars original THX, The Definitive Collection and 1997 Special Edition box sets. Too bad I couldn't put the HD broadcasts of the Episodes 3-6 Star Wars films on my 3410 (easy to cue up & watch if desired). But then there wouldn't be much room left for other awesome HD programs.

Any reaction to the new TIVO HD announced recently? From what I can see, it has ATSC antenna capability as well as cable card and ethernet.

Any reaction to the new TIVO HD announced recently? From what I can see, it has ATSC antenna capability as well as cable card and ethernet.

If you sill have to pay TIVO a monthly fee to get a program guide then it's missing one of the best features of the LG

That's why I bought the LG. No monthly fees to TiVo and, at the time, high definition recording.

Yes, but does the LG's guide update daily such that it tracks changes in showings and lengths?

To me, that's the biggest value of TiVO; if the show is "supersized" and is 65 minutes this week, or if it's preempted due to a local sporting event and pushed to 3:00 AM Friday, TiVO just does the right thing. No need to record reruns either; TiVO knows when the show is new because of the program guide.

I don't know if the LG can use the TVG listings that way.

When it works (and it doesn't lately, for me) the LG's guide is updated whenever the data are fed, which is at least daily. But that doesn't mean it's up-to-date. I've seen instances when it and the newspaper's weekly guide were wrong, while the newspaper's daily guide was right. But it's more likely to be right than the printed guides.

Start and end times are nominal. It always cut off the end of Lost and Alias, which consistently ran long. And it thinks Leno and Letterman start at 11:35 and end at 12:35. They really run from 11:34 to 12:37.

It won't find shows that run at other than the normal time, and it won't select shows that are new or "new to me" (i.e. not previously recorded). The guide helps you to set a record timer, but after that it just knows to record a certain channel at a certain time for a certain duration.

My guide is operational as long as I unplug replug if the guide light is off

I lost my guide data ... again. It seems to happen whenever there is a problem with the power. Whenever the lights flicker, I need to set the time on my microwave and reset 3410A.

The Tivo is appealing to me for many reasons, but I hate the thought of paying their monthly fee. I just bought a HDHomeRun, which has 2 ATSC tuners that can I can use for either (or both) OTA or Clear QAM recording. I've long used BeyondTV for recording analog stations, and it works well with the HDHR. A one hour HD TV show fits nicely onto a DVD -R and two hours fit on a DL disk. I'm burning them so they'll play as HD in my HD DVD player. If I get tired of burning the shows, I may get a cheap media player. So I'm going to see how well I can use this to augment the 3410A before jumping onto the Tivo bandwagon.

Hyrax,

It does not become HD just because it gets upscaled in the
DVD player

Art, I'm not upscaling...I'm recording .ts files, converting to MPEG, and writing these 1080i and 720p files in a HD DVD format to a normal DVD. They play fine in my HD DVD player.

Tim

Tim,

That sounds exciting. Would you be kind enough to private me some details or send me to a place where I could learn to do this.

Will you keep it public? I'm interested as well.

Tim,

I don't think this is appropriate for "public" consumption. I am sure Hyrax would be willing to copy you.

It doesn't sound like anything he is doing is a "no-no", so I don't see why it wouldn't be for public consumption... but, if it needs to go private, that's OK.

lol, it is a thread on AVS ... a long, long thread calle 'The official AVS Guide to HD DVD Authoring' :)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146&goto=newpost

The discussion of HDHomeRun is
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=731457&goto=newpost

If you've a question about something that confuses you with the process, let me know.

good places to start. thanks!

First... Just returned from a week's motorcycle vacation.... Both 3410a's preformed flawlessly!!!
I've been powering the units off a BBU system for a long while now, and I've got to hand it to John T. for his suggestion about using a BBU.

Hey, Jan - I have a question for you:

Do you get ads on your guide? And if not now, have you ever gotten them?

Jan,

What BBU are you using?

Ram.... I've never had any ads on the guide....
MrHifi.... The BBU was on sale at Sam's Club.... I think it is an 800-900W unit. Only negative I have about it is that when power fails, it BEEPS, and I've not been able to figure out how to disable the BEEP, without going in and cutting the lead to the noisemaker.... Maybe after the warranty is over....

Ram.... I've never had any ads on the guide....OK. Thanks.

I'm sure the answer is in here, so I apologize, but I've been searching and searching and haven't found it.

I have the LG going to the TV via the DVI port. Recently I've also connected the LG to a Panny DVD recorder via the Svideo port.

No matter what I try I can't get video from the LG to the Panny. I AM getting audio to the Panny from the LG.

Do I have to physically unplug the DVI cable to get video out via Svideo?

It is really difficult to reach the back of my equipment in my rack, that is why I am posting instead of simply trying it :p

Thanks!

Only one format is output from the LG at a time... You said you were using DVI output, probably at 720P or 1080i. Switch the LG to 480i "Video" output, and the SVideo output should light up. Unfortunately, the DVI output will then extinguish...
From the occasional dubs I've made for the wife, I can tell you the composite output and SVideo outputs both are active on 480i output at the same time..

While we're speaking about Video out...has anyone found codes for a remote control that allows you to change output?

While we're talking about DVI... is it worth switching from component to DVI? I just bought a new receiver that allows HDMI switching, so I assume I'll be able to use a DVI->HDMI to my receiver and a HDMI cable from my receiver to my PJ. However, if this doesn't improve the picture, I may as well keep on using the component output.

Only one format is output from the LG at a time... You said you were using DVI output, probably at 720P or 1080i. Switch the LG to 480i "Video" output, and the SVideo output should light up. Unfortunately, the DVI output will then extinguish...
From the occasional dubs I've made for the wife, I can tell you the composite output and SVideo outputs both are active on 480i output at the same time..

Okay, I see, only one at a time. Yup this should be okay, since I don't have to physically unplug the cable, just the video output settings. Getting video to the DVD recorder now. Thanks!

While we're speaking about Video out...has anyone found codes for a remote control that allows you to change output?


That's what I've been looking for also. My Harmony 880 loaded discretes from the database for 480i - 480p -720p -1080i etc., but what is missing is ypbbr/video/dvi etc. It would be great to have discrete output ports for macros.

Art, I'm not upscaling...I'm recording .ts files, converting to MPEG, and writing these 1080i and 720p files in a HD DVD format to a normal DVD. They play fine in my HD DVD player.

Tim
What bitrate are these HD programs at that you can get an hour on an SL disc?

I put HDV camcorder footage on SL discs that play in my HD DVD Player, but the material is at 25Mb/s and I get 24 minutes max on an SL disc.

What bitrate are these HD programs at that you can get an hour on an SL disc? I put HDV camcorder footage on SL discs that play in my HD DVD Player, but the material is at 25Mb/s and I get 24 minutes max on an SL disc.
24 min max is about right. Most of the things I record are 720P, and an hour long TV show is only 40-42 minutes long without the commercials. TV shows are broadcast at much lower bit rates than you're using, and I believe they may be variable. When I look at the first header it says 25MB/s, but I'm sure it is much closer to 18 MB/s (or even 12 MB/s for live sports) on average. Broadcast HDTV is usually referred to as 'HDTV lite' for a reason.

My main 3410 started missing scheduled recordings, not loading TVGuide, and other issues....

I thought, what the heck, so I re-capped the power supply.

In circuit the caps checked good with ESR meter. Probably so because of close electrical connection to other caps (separated by coils, resistors). Out of circuit, they tested relatively good for ESR, but just the slightest indication that they were drying out.

It's back together again (with upgraded valuses) and it just started a scheduled recording (first it has successfully done in 4 days)......

So at least I watied until it started successful recording before posting.... Ask me in a couple weeks if it helped!! :)!

Wife says it did worked flawlessly last night.
Took caps to work, and some of them (on the 3.5V & 3.3V supplies) were approaching marginal.

Jan,

What an optimist. You know it always works after an unplug/replug and a turn on then off. I watch for a white guide light during the afternoon. No light means it needs a replug. All three 3410A's need replugs once a day or every other day. Everything works perfectly, guide, recording and scheduling. I use at least 2 machines an average of 4 t 5 hours a day in summer. I have innputs from cable, OTA and a C Band satellite that pulls in digital and analog. Between midnight and 5 AM I get the PBS shows and some things on satellite that wwould conflict during prime time. Love my 3410's. And for those who are thinking that we owners are crazy to love these things, let me just emphasize the fact that I just installed an OPTOMa HD81-LV, a DLP FP whose MSRP is $14,000. My main input is the 3410A's and an LG LST 4200 tuner. The PQ is as good as I have seen.

I'm having problems with DVI->HDMI. The 3410A shows a moment of video, then blanks the screen and puts up a 'DVI Blocked' message (that looks like a 'No Signal' message except it is blue). Then a moment of video... on and on. Does this sound like a HDCP issue to you? Is there a way to get around it? I sure would like to get it working. I'm using my new receiver (a Denon 4308CI) as a video switcher, and I have more HDMI inputs than component inputs.

Check for something in your display manual about "HDMI Consortium".. Display manufacturer's a couple years ago joined forces to 'standardize' the HDMI Standard....

In this "Consortium" is an agreement for some sort of 'copy protection' .....

You could be running afowl of that. It could be that since the display doesn't know or can't interpret the MFG of the product (3410a), it therefore thinks it is running afoul of copy protection rules, and therefore blocks it.... So as to follow rules set forth in the "HDMI Consortium".

Do a search on "HDMI Consortium"

I do not have this problem with my Mitsubishi 62525 DLP at home (~3 years old) and 3410a, but I did run into something simelar with a newer set of Mitsubishi DLP's at work.
There we were feeding HDSDI Video from a unit that puts multiple pictures on one HD feed, and we fed it to a converter product that changes HDSDIVideo (not component, serial HD digital) to DVI signal. From that it was simple: DVI to HDMI cable into DLP. On older Mitsubishi's (here at home) it worked, on newer ones, at work, I got a solid blue screen. I called Mitsubishi, and they told me it wasn't supported, and were not going to help. I called the HDVideo to DVI converter people (AJA) and they told me about a software switch for a "Compatability Mode" that was made to 'get around' issues such as this. This mode (switch not labeled by the way) does something to the converted signals such that the Mitsubishi displays the image fine!!!
Note that The SAME hardware (Signal generator, HDVideo to DVI converter, and DVI to HDMI cable) into a SAMSUNG DLP works fine (without any use of the 'compatability' switch!!!

"HDMI Consortium" ===== Thanks alot Manufacturer's!!!

In three short days I've grown to hate the HDMI Consortium. Because of them I cannot switch away from my HD DVD player without it stopping. I discovered this while trying to compare the quality of HDMI output with the quality of component output on my HD DVD player. Because of HDMI 'rules' I have to go through a very irritating hand shaking routine every time I fast forward on my D-VHS deck. And because of them I cannot use the DVI out on my 3410A. They have screwed up every single video source on my rack except a 10 year old VCR and a $30 DVD player that was too cheap to include HDMI.

How in the world have we let them get away with this?

In three short days I've grown to hate the HDMI Consortium. Because of them I cannot switch away from my HD DVD player without it stopping. I discovered this while trying to compare the quality of HDMI output with the quality of component output on my HD DVD player. Because of HDMI 'rules' I have to go through a very irritating hand shaking routine every time I fast forward on my D-VHS deck. And because of them I cannot use the DVI out on my 3410A. They have screwed up every single video source on my rack except a 10 year old VCR and a $30 DVD player that was too cheap to include HDMI.

How in the world have we let them get away with this?
Sounds like most of your complaints are regarding HDCP rather than HDMI.

Currently I convert 2 3410A's and a 4200 from DVI to HDMI, run them into my VXC3000 scaler/switcher, which is part of the Optoma HD81-LV front projector, without any problem. I use a Sony EP9ES PrePro to process DD and a Millenium silver for DTS. I also use a BluRay Sony BDPS300 also connected via HDMI.

I am contemplating the purchase of one of 2 about to be released PrePro's that have HDMI switching. The Integra DTC9.8 or the NAD T-175 are my two choices to replace the Sony and help me to move into the world of HDMI and the new audio codecs available on HD discs. I do not want to lose compatibility with my 3410's and 4200. Is there any way to check ahead of time for compatibility?.

Well, Art..... I'd suggest not to purchase any new equipment that doesn't have a money back guarantee, due to the above mentioned problems!

Sounds like most of your complaints are regarding HDCP rather than HDMI.
True, but how do you use HDMI cables and avoid running into HDCP? They've screwed up what would be a welcome improvement by heaping on HDCP.

Art- I'm fairly positive you'll run into the same issue I did. One thing to do is to try to download the manuals for the pre-pros. Look for any mention of HDCP and try to figure out if it will be trouble or not. Also, user reports on the Onkyo 905 may give you an idea of what the Integra will do. I'm using the component connection into my receiver, and sending it out via HDMI. It works well.

11-13-04 09:48 PM

mkerdman
AVS Special Member

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Calabasas
Posts: 2600

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Hardtimes
I wish I could get those files off my 3410A's hard drive. I really want to keep them, need the space, and refuse to buy a DVHS - that would defeat the purpose of buying the LG for me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



To archive your LG 3410 recordings, you should modify your 3410 to house it's hard drive(s) in an external enclosure with interchangeable slide-out trays like this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...371#post3973371


__________________
Murray Kerdman

Murray,

I found your qoute above in an archived forum on AVS for the 3410a.
I am interested in getting files off the HDD, into my PC, and burning them to DVD.
I have never even burned a DVD on my laptop before, so I am very new to this.
Can you tell me what type of files these are stored as on the HDD?
I have an Icy Dock MB123ARCK with two trays that I have been using to swap HDD's.
I am thinking that I can get the "Koutech IO-UIC120 USB2.0 to IDE Converter - Retail" off of neoegg to get files from the HDD into my laptop.
I would probably have to get another rack (and tray) in order to have the right outputs on the back of the tray to interface with the IDE cable and power (b/c the tray has a 64 DIN connector while the rack has IDE and molex).
I think at the stage I am at now this is the right forum to post in.
As I learn more about what is stored, how to transfer it, and what to do with it afterwards, I may be posting in another forum.
If Murray, or anyone, has any advice, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Timmer

Timmer-
An easier method might be (if you don't own a Mac) to sucker a friend who owns a Mac computer over and down load the files to the Mac via Firewire (using Apple's Virtual DVHS software).

This article sort of tells you how to do it: http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2349&p=3

I've got a friend coming over to try this next week. I want to replace the hard drive in my 3410A, but need to get the recordings off it first.

Timmer-
An easier method might be (if you don't own a Mac) to sucker a friend who owns a Mac computer over and down load the files to the Mac via Firewire (using Apple's Virtual DVHS software).

This article sort of tells you how to do it: http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2349&p=3

I've got a friend coming over to try this next week. I want to replace the hard drive in my 3410A, but need to get the recordings off it first.
Thanks Hyrax,
Yep, I think I've read that people with Macs, which I'm not one of, basically can just plug-n-play using firewire with no problem. Must be nice.
I tend to be a bit of a putzer, like to make things more difficult than they need to be, and usually learn something along the way.
Thanks for the advice, if things don't work out with the PC I may have to go the way of the Mac.

Timmer

Timmer-
I've read that the Mac approach works well. Or you could get a compatible D-VHS recorder, dump to that, then from D-VHS to a PC. There are several programs to do that. Unfortunately the 3410A's 1394 I/O is designed to work only with a short list of D-VHS recorders and, IIRC, one camcorder. The Mac connection looks like one of those D-VHS units.

I think mkerdman was suggesting keeping recordings on multiple removeable hard drives formatted for the 3410A, without connecting them to a computer. A long time ago in this or a related thread, someone reported on his examination of the 3410A's hard drive format. It's nothing a PC with Windows or Linux can read directly, and I doubt a Mac could either. I suppose a program could be written to extract the files, but I haven't heard of one.

ebo,

Thanks, I think you may be right, that Murray was referring to multiple hard drives to store what could be an endless amount of programs. Dangit!!
I will have to look back through this monstrous thread for the format of the hard drive.
I just want to put some "Caillou" on DVD for the kiddo.
The search continues...

Timmer

Timmer-
The easiest way, by far, to get material off the 3410A and onto a DVD is to plug it's S-Video out into a DVD Recorder.

ebo, found it:

[Post 4036]
Author : the_tom
Date : 09-02-06 08:39 AM

Anyone ever figure out a way to get the recordings off the HD and onto a PC (without dumping to DVHS)?

One way you "can't" do it is by removing the drive and connecting it to a PC. I spent a fair amount of time looking into this about a year ago, using a series of little programs I wrote to access the disk in raw mode on Win2K. [I had a lot of very nice 2004 Olympics in HD on the 3410 that I REALLY wanted to save but which would not archive to the JVC 30K DVHS deck (too high a data rate I guess?). ]

One thing I did was to use two disks, the second a byte-for-byte copy of the first, put the second back in the 3410, record a single 1-minute program, take it back out, then do a byte-for-byte compare of the whole disk, saving all sectors with any differences into a file on the PC. From this kind of thing I could eventually follow the disk layout well enough to locate program data (the 3410 uses a non-standard partition stamp layout that looks like a corrupted disk to Windows, and a hacked-up version of a FAT32 file system with really big blocks). The transport stream headers are plain to see if you are used to looking at them (I was then, but it's been a while). So the "obvious" thing was to extract the program data into a PC file, call it a transport stream, and try to play it. But it would not play - and TSReader could make no sense of the stream.

So then I tried simultaneous recording of the same program (an HD channel that the cable op gets OTA, so it was not originally encrypted on the cable) on the 3410, and on my PC over firewire from the cable box, and on a JVC 30K DVHS. I was able to line up all three sets of data using the transport stream headers. The a/v data contents were the same, byte for byte and packet for packet, between the PC and DVHS versions, but the 3410 version was completely different data inside the TS packets. By comparing in detail and studying up a bit on crypto tech I was able to conclude to my own satisfaction that the 3410 is in fact encrypting all the content data on the disk, with a 128-bit block chaining cipher applied on a per-packet basis; something like AES/Rijndael. At that point (i.e. once I was convinced it was encrypted and not just encoded somehow) I stopped working on it.

I will not engage in any discussion that has anything to do with cracking the crypto - I don't know how to, I haven't tried to, I don't intend to, and I won't help anybody that wants to. BUT IMO LG have neither any obligation nor any right to encrypt this material, which they do not own and which their device recieves IN THE CLEAR over the cable! I wrote to them to say so and asked them to give me the info needed to decrypt the data, but they never wrote back.

I did note that in principle one could have written a backup/restore utility that could save the program info and the encrypted transport stream off of a 3410 disk, and then restore it later. (I don't know if it could then playback on a different unit.) But there was a lot that was still murky to me about their file system even after grimbling with it in binary form for days and days, and I had firewire to PC recording going anyway, so I just didn't see it as worthwhile - I guessed it would be a 300 to 500 hour project, and the results would always be vulnerable to sudden total loss, being tied to a closed, discontinued, single box.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Timmer

Hyrax,

Thanks again for another alternate avenue to get this stuff on DVD!

Timmer

Well, I've done it the other way... show recorded in HD on the 3410A -> D-VHS deck -> PC -> transcode to SD via software -> write to DVD. It is a pain, and transcoding a HD show to SD takes about 4 hours per hour of source. And you need to do the first transcoding several times because the settings always need tweaking. I believe it took me over 100 hours to get my first good SD recording. I had my first recording in 12 hours (the source was 3 hours long), the rest of the time was devoted to getting smooth video and removing lip sync problems (my audio and video would get out of sync every time there was a digital glitch in the recording).

The funny thing was that the S-Video out recording looked better than even my best transcoded efforts. But I did learn valuable lessons [don't do that again].

Since the power supply re-cap, control of unit is much better, but there still was some TVG lockups, so, last Friday I changed the zipcode to something entirely bogus, and then shut it off for 2-3 hours, then, powered up and put my correct zipcode in setup, then powered down overnight.
That was enough to force a channel lineup, and once correctly selected, and channel numbers re-edited to where I wanted them, all has been fine.

Symptoms were missed recordings, TVG Lockup (not calling up after power up), Recordings that didn't log afterward.

One technique I've used to get a file into the computer is this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/printthread.php?s=&threadid=403695

I used it exactly one time before giving up on it, but it does work. The only problem is the program has to be playing on the 3410 and it's transferred in real time. This means a 2 hour movie takes 2 hours to transfer. I guess you could set it up over night and just go to bed, but I was too impatient.

Anything that is playing in the 3410 can be recorded. So live TV or stored files can be transfered.

I havent played with it for years and I dont remember all the details of getting it working so I cant really answer questions, but I remember the isntructions being not very precise and having to guess at a lot of steps not included.

-dickm

dicko2 --- I tried the link, but couldn't get there...
Are you copying to a PC or MAC?

I just clicked on it in my posting and it worked fine for me. I have a PC.

I wonder if the ellipsis in the middle that the forum adds is screwing things up.

Here it is again without the "http://www". Maybe I can fool the forum into thinking its plain text.

avsforum.com/avs-vb/printthread.php?s=&threadid=403695

Thanks for the heads-up dicko2.
BTW, the link worked fine for me on a PC.
Happy Recording ( :D

Tim

One technique I've used to get a file into the computer is this:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/printthread.php?s=&threadid=403695

I used it exactly one time before giving up on it, but it does work. The only problem is the program has to be playing on the 3410 and it's transferred in real time. This means a 2 hour movie takes 2 hours to transfer. I guess you could set it up over night and just go to bed, but I was too impatient.

Anything that is playing in the 3410 can be recorded. So live TV or stored files can be transfered.

I havent played with it for years and I dont remember all the details of getting it working so I cant really answer questions, but I remember the isntructions being not very precise and having to guess at a lot of steps not included.

-dickm

Hi dickm,

I've used this process a while back with the LG-3410a and was only able to record the live OTA signal. I have a PC running windows XP. I was not able to record anything from the hard drive. Even when playing the hard drive only the OTA signal is recorded using this method.

However I was able to record unencrypted recordings from the hard drive of the Mitsubushi 3XXX, and 64XX cable boxes provided by my cable company, Comcast, using this method.

-James

If anyone determines how to get files off-of or on-to the 3410a, please wake me up!!!

A Tivo HD followed me home last night... I've never owned any Tivo stuff before ("$15 a month for a TV Guide! Jamais!"). But this really may be a keeper.

My first impression is that the software and hardware is really well designed. I read the instructions briefly, and just started using it. One of the first things I noticed is that it actually has guide data for all sub-channels. Now I can easily set up recordings for those stations. I setup a recording of a Football game, and it asked me if I wanted to add extra time to the 'live event' in case it took longer than expected. I selected two shows to record, and they both got recorded...while I watched another show I'd recorded. I setup a recording conflict, told it which show was the higher priority, and it did the right thing.

That is all good. The main down side I've seen so far with the Tivo is that it doesn't have a VGA output. I have a small display monitor(RPTV) in my TV room to watch poorer quality material like early DVDs, SD broadcasts, or the local news. They just look too fuzzy when I watch them on a big screen. This is an old monitor that came out before Component output was an option, so it only has S-Video and VGA inputs. I need to get a Component->VGA transcoder if I want to watch Tivo HD on my old display monitor.

However, on the positive side, I did notice that it has both the HDMI and S-Video outputs active at once. This makes it very simple to watch HD on a large screen or SD digital broadcasts on my display monitor. No more getting up from the couch when I want to change the output, like I did so often with the 3410A. Also, it seems to have an excellent HD->SD->S-Video converter. So I might just get used to watching the news that way.

The one area that I need to investigate more closely is PQ. I have yet to do any A/B comparisons, but I just have a feeling the Tivo may have a slightly softer image than the LST-3410A. Right now I'm connecting the HDMI from the Tivo to the HDMI in my Denon receiver, and then from my receiver to the projector. The 3410A connects directly to my projector I have the Tivo scaling everything to 720P because other settings cause HDMI handshaking (and my projector is 720P). I'll do some testing with display modes (Native and 1080i) on the Tivo, as well as directly connecting it to my projector.

Oh, and I should mention that my 3410A lost its Guide data over the week. I need to coax it back...again.

Hyrax,

TRAITOR....You have ventured into the devil's camp and been lured to believing his gospel. As one of the founding fathers and original members of this forum, I feel you should have given us some warning so we could retire you formally. Anyway, I am jealous. Please let us know how it works. Specially the PQ. As you know by now I keep 3 running on my 1080p FP system because of f the unmatche PQ. I look forward to your updates my friend.

Art! I've not gotten rid of the 3410A, I'm just augmenting it. Anyway, LG orphaned us in the first place! Where the heck is their next generation STB?

BTW, I am now looking at putting a 750GB hard drive in the Tivo. It looks really simple. There is talk of being able to use a RAID server if I want to add more than 2.2TB. So there may be some benefits to the Tivo other than the guide.

Every time I talk with the fellow who has 'contacts' at LG, he keeps telling me how the newer DVR's are inside LG Displays.... And how I'd really like the LG display...

And I keep telling him that I DON'T WANT an LG display, I have a display already!!

I keep hounding him to tell LG that the best beta testers are right here.....

If they really want to find out the bugs in a new set.... Let US play with it!!

He laughs, and that is usually the end of the conversation......

My 3410A finally seems kaput. The infamous green reserved light is on and I cannot get it to go out. I’ve tried all solutions I know.

1. soft reset (5 sec. unplug/replug)
2. unplugged all inputs
3. unplug power for 24 hrs.
4. factory reset (select/left arrow - #10)
5. booting with hd unplugged
6. use of demo/shorting pin
7. flashed rom mp1.12 > mp1.15 successfully (thank you Jan J.)
8. deleted all channels I can get to in Menu
9. turned blocking on for AV/1 & AV/2

Of course I cannot access the TVGuide menu or VCR+ menu to delete the offending data, nor will it let me set the clock/date via Menu.
Menu > Setup > Troubleshooting complains that an ‘invalid channel has been memorized’. I guess I will leave it unplugged for 30 days and try one more time.

With hd unplugged it boots fine, but gives same green reserved light right away which indicates this is a memory issue. I can’t believe a clean firmware upgrade did not wipe memory, but apparently not. I wish I had a fresh Gemstar riser board to test in it. Does anyone know if it will boot without the riser?

I’ve had mine since Nov. 2004. Mine has had its share of quirks, but has always come back after using #1 soft reset. Does anyone have any further suggestions?

Try this....
Go into Setup and change settings....
Tell it you have Cable but no box, and your Zipcode is 60076 (Mine, I know this works)
Once it says it is waiting for data, turn it off overnight.

Next Day, Go back into Setup and change the settings back to YOUR settings. Save them and turn back off...
Wait a day or two and it should be fine.

Try this....
Go into Setup and change settings....
Tell it you have Cable but no box, and your Zipcode is 60076 (Mine, I know this works)
Once it says it is waiting for data, turn it off overnight.

That is my Catch-22. I cannot get to Setup in the Guide Menu. I can only access Menu.

Menu > Setup > Easy Scan complains 'you should complete TV Guide On Screen System Settings and run EZ Scan'.

Guide button on front panel yields nada. :(

Your problem sounds vaguely familiar.

Try replacing the hard drive with one known to work.

I agree with wison. I'll bet your HD is dead

I think it is not the HD, as I was still able to select and view some old recorded material prior to the factory reset #10 and formatting. I can still access prog list menu, there is just nothing there now. The green reseverved light comes on immediately whether the HD is powered or not and that is preventing me from getting in to the Guide Menu.

When mine fails, albeit not like yours, several factory resets and guide resets eventually get it working. Over the years many of us have discoveredd that bad update data can wreck these things. I have been out for weeks on 2 machines and then it starts working. If you can get the white Guide light on, let it sit over night. I would check those HD drive connections and the swith settings. If you have the green reserved light on, there must be something reserved on that HD. Sorry, that is all I have. I believe it mifght work again but only when it wants to. These things have a certain mystical quality. They make us pay for that gorgeous picture. As I have said various times on here. The picture these things deliver is the finest I have coming from 7 input sources. I run DVI to HDMI to an HD81-LV projector that converts everything to 1080p. I adore my 3 units.

I thought I'd update you all on my TivoHD experience. In technical terms … It is wonderful!

My main concern before I bought the Tivo box was picture quality. The 3410A does an excellent job in that regard and I didn’t want to give it up. While I'm not 100% convinced that the TivoHD’s PQ is exactly the same as that of the 3410A, I really cannot find a specific scene where it is worse. The TivoHD seems a little bit soft to me at times, but every time I do an A/B comparison they seem identical.

One issue that makes comparison a little difficult is that I cannot use the DVI output on the 3410A to connect to receiver's HDMI input. So I'm comparing the HDMI output of the TivoHD to the Component output of the 3410A. They both do an excellent job with most TV shows.

One area where the TivoHD definitely does a better job is with dropouts. My 3410A has a slight dropout problem with HD recordings that show up as a very brief glitch in the picture. It seems to happen 2-3 times an hour and was distracting at first, but I’ve gotten use to it. The Tivo has yet to do this.

The ability to record two shows at once and watch a previously recorded show is pure bliss. Never having a problem with the guide data is worth the price of admission ($8.33 a month if you sign up for 3 years).

Anyway, I suggest you check out both the TivoHD and the Tivo S3. This seems to be a particularly good time to buy a S3 - Circuit City seems to be selling the S3 at $599, and there is a $200 rebate from Tivo.

Well after about 2 years of flawless performance my 3410A unit is now showing the AV1/AV2 invalid channel selected for recording screen. Sometimes when I power up it does not go to the TV Guide screen directley like is used to. Also when it is acting up like that and you try to change channels, they change only after a lengthy delay followed by an audio delay. By unplugging it for several seconds to reset it I can get it to record the next nights scheduled recordings. I am having to do this on an almost daily basis. Sometimes I will have the white TV Guide light and sometimes not. What is the general feeling about what causes the units to start acting like this? I have read back through past posts and there seems to be different ideas about what the problem is. Chasie

Chasie,
Coincidence, mine did the same thing tonight and the only thing I can think of that might have started it was a series of quick key strokes trying to bring up the guide. In any event was able to reset by the same method you did, quick unplug and reboot. Seems to be working oK now.
Mike

Chasie-
I've always felt it was corrupted guide data that causes the problem. Unfortunately, the 3410A keeps a couple weeks of data, so you could keep on having the problem for a few weeks. At least, I seem get the problem in bunches, but then they go away again. I assume that the bad data has finally been replaced.

Mine's snafu as well. No guide since last night. Although I haven't tried to reset it yet.

OK, so thats 3 of us that this happened to within a few days. Coincidence or corrupt TV Guide data? Anyone else having this problem? Chasie

One thought on the "bad data" problem. I've read in this thread that there are at least two versions of Gemstar data being broadcast: 7 and 8. The LG uses v7 and the Sony DVR uses v8. Maybe they're similar enough that the LG recognizes v8 data as Gemstar info, but it can't actually use it.

My guide reception comes and goes. I just got new data today after a cold restart and redoing the setup, following a couple of weeks of no data. Currently the LG will lock to either of two stations, the CBS and PBS affiliates. But it never gets good data from the PBS station, so if it drops the CBS station and locks onto the other, it won't get anything. I usually don't notice until the guide comes up empty.

But I have only one "logo" for the CBS station (several for PBS), and if I reassign it from analog to digital, the LG will drop it as the host channel. So I have to leave it as analog and remember to schedule any CBS recordings manually.

Oh, well, we won't have to put up with this much longer; after the analog shutdown none of our guides will work.

Too bad this unit wasn't designed like an old fashioned VCR where you could just program and record certain times and days without being dependent on TV Guide data. Chasie

I thought it was pretty easy to program it like a VCR. Cannot you not also use those numbers they publish in the Newspaper's guide to make it even easier?

One thought on the "bad data" problem. I've read in this thread that there are at least two versions of Gemstar data being broadcast: 7 and 8. The LG uses v7 and the Sony DVR uses v8. Maybe they're similar enough that the LG recognizes v8 data as Gemstar info, but it can't actually use it.I have two recorders with the 7th gen. guide (Sony, Panny), and they get their info from a different channel than my one recorder (Sony DVR) and one TV (Pioneer) with the 8th gen. guide does.

My Panny EH75V gets it's 9th gen. info from the same channel as the 8th gen. guides.

There are many older TV's and VCR's with "TV Guide Plus", and they have even older gen. guides, and can still get data, though I have no idea from which channel - possibly the same one as the v7.

YMMV.

I just added a Comcast Cablecard PVR ( the latest unit) tomy system. The Picture quality from that unit is as good as my 3 LG3410A's. It has 2 tuners so you can record 2 shows at once or watch and record. You can either watch input or watch previously recorded material. Man this is living. If I did not have to pay $12.00 a month for it, it would be perfect. Best of all though, I will now be able to rcord 5 HD shows in the same time slot. Now, if I can just get enough time to watch everytthing and I remember to keep unplugging and replugging the LG's, I will be fine.

Art-
Good move, and just in time for the new TV season (and The War). But you've fallen to the darkness. Come to the light; get a Tivo and dump Comcast. ;)

Honestly, though, I've heard many tales of the Comcast boxes failing to record stuff, so make sure you record stuff you really want on more than one box until it proves reliable. Hopefully the new boxes are better than the old ones.

I'm in the same position as you - too many recorders, even though I'm now 100% OTA. 3 HD tuners on my PC, one tuner 3410A, and two on the TivoHD. It is wonderful, but how am I going to find time to watch all this stuff?

Has anyone successfully installed and used a 750GB Hard Drive in an LG LST-3410A?

If so, which brand and model number.

Has anyone successfully installed and used a 1TB Hard Drive in an LG LST-3410A?

If so, which brand and model number.

If FiOS is completely digital and our machines receive TVGOS data through analog signals, doesn't that render our machines obsolete before the analog TV cutoff, now being delayed again? I ask because Comcast seems to be upgrading our area's transmission lines (finally!) so we can receive VOD and more HD. Is anyone here on a FiOS system? I searched the thread and found only 2 mentions of it.

The only thing rendered inoperative is the guide if you subscribe to an all digital system. I have the upgraded Comcast and my guide works if I unplug/replug every day..

I'm still comparing my Tivo to my 3410A, so I went overboard this afternoon. I decided to record the Pats game this afternoon on my Tivo and 3410A from my antenna and on my computer from both Comcast and OTA. I've a HDHR tuner for my computer and use BeyondTV to record, so this is fairly easy to do.

The Tivo and 3410A once again seem identical, but there was a surprise on the computer recordings. My Comcast recording was 4.5 hours long and the file size was 26.01 GB. My OTA recording was 4 hours long and the file size was 34.66 GB. That's a fairly significant bitrate difference, and it really shows up in the quality of the broadcast.

Hyrax,

I compared the Redskins-Giants game using the 3410A and my new Comast DCH 3416 Box. I could not see any difference with my 1080p projector but it is hard to remember when you A/B because there is delay of over 10 sec while everything resyncs. Your results are very interesting however I have to wonder what else might be embedded in that OTA file that is not directly related to the program. I spoke with the installer who connected my HD DVR and who was a comcast employee, not a contractor. He is an engineering student and semed quite knowledgeable. He said that the local Comcast sends the HD signals out without any recompression. I did learn something else though that I found interesting. Apparently, HBO, Showtime, etc... broadcast the original signal at a bit rate compatible with the needs of the cable systems so they will not have to do any additional processing. That means that the pristeen feeds I used to get on analog C Band years ago are a thing of the past and all we can hope t get off a broadcast signal is a downgraded version of what we wil see on BluRay or HDDVD.

Art-
Was that Redskins-Giants game broadcast on Fox? I didn't see that game, but I was amazed at how fuzzy the Fox OTA broadcast looked this week-end. I'm really beginning to be bothered at the low quality of high definition football broadcasts, and other sports. For some reason ESPN and ABC seem to be doing a better job than others.

It makes sense that local Comcasts would not mess with the signal by lowering the bitrate. It must cost real money to be able to transcode in real time and makes no sense for every office to do it. It makes more sense to do the processing at the recording source. I do wonder if it is possible that the networks send a lower bitrate signal to Comcast (by contract?).

You raised a good point about what else is being sent OTA (could it be guide data, or secret messages to buy more Ovaltine?). Heck, for all I know, it could be that the ads are the difference between the two sources. I did notice that the local OTA broadcast of Sunday Night Football was sending weather on an extra stream.

I'm going to process the files I recorded to contain just a single audio and video stream, remove the adverts, and see how Comcast and OTA broadcasts compare in PQ. Fortunately, I can easily put both files on my computer screen at the same time. I can also do a real comparison of their bitrates by dividing the same recording time by the file size of the actual football broadcast.

The Redskin's game was on Fox. At first, I thought it was fuzzier than the CBS feed but it did not bother me as much as the yellow and maroon Redskins uniform. Ughhhhh!!!

I have always thought the Fox and ABC 720P brodcasts looked worse than the CBS and dNBC feeds at 1080i. Since I got my Optoma HD81-LV 1080p projector that translates everything to 1080p, the difference is harder to see but it is there.

So, I guess I agree with you....The game this Sunday on fox was noticeably fuzzier but not bad.

You'll never know for sure, unless you were at the station, but it could be that they received the game in SD, and UpConvertered it to HD

Well, I compared the OTA broadcast of the Patriots game on CBS to the Comcast broadcast. The first half of football only (ads cut out) was 14.2 MBps on Comcast and 18.0 MBps OTA. I made sure that each file only contained a single video and a single audio stream.

It makes sense on my system that the Comcast broadcast would be lower than OTA... there are 3 channels (ABC, CBS, & NBC) on a single QAM frequency.

I seem to recall that Fox Football is somehow presented in conjunction with DirecTV. It may be that both the OTA and the Comcast broadcast both have exactly the same, and very low bitrate, feed.

My local ABC station just went full HD and their College Football and their pre-season NFL broadcasts have been excellent. The last time I measured its bitrate, it was over 19.0 MBps.

...The last time I measured its bitrate, it was over 19.0 MBps.
Sorry if this is a noob question, but how do you measure the bitrate? Thanks!

Sorry if this is a noob question, but how do you measure the bitrate? Thanks!

I've been told that you calculate the average bitrate of the video stream:
Bitrate = (file size of stream in GB * 8192) / (run time in minutes * 60)
For a 8.03 GB file with a run time of 60.5 minutes, you get
(8.03 * 8192)/3630 or 18.12

However, the program I use to edit MPEG files tells me the actual bitrate of my output.

Thanks, Hydrax. But, I think the question was... how do you get the bitrate of a video stream from the LG?

lol, I split the signal and send it to my computer.

lol, I split the signal and send it to my computer.

If you're not sending it to a Mac, how are you sending to a computer? is it using the stuff discussed in the HowTO record via 1394/Firewire to WindowsXP (or something like that) thread?

lol, I split the signal and send it to my computer.

LOL. That's funny. Never considered that! :p

OK, I see I've confused people. My journey with the 3410A has been convoluted.

For years I've been using Fusion5 tuner on my PC to record football games in HD. How ever, in my computer's room, I only have a Comcast connection, so I was only able to get the HD broadcasts from the clear QAM Comcast stations. 18 months ago I got a HD DVD player and have been burning these football games to disks so I can watch them on my 100" screen. When I started doing this, I noticed that the PQ of many of the games I'd recorded on my PC looked worse than those I'd recorded on the 3410A. I just assumed that the 3410A had a better tuner, scaler, or whatever.

A few months I got a new antenna and an antenna amp. When the guy installed them, I had him run an antenna cable to my computer in another room. So, for the first time I had an antenna and a Comcast signal in my office. I then bought a device called a HDHomeRun which is tiny little box that has dual tuners in it (www.silicondust.com) and connects to your home network. It allows you to record from two sources at one time, so I connected both my antenna cable and Comcast cable to it. Last week-end I record the same football broadcast from both Comcast and the OTA signals (and on my LST-3410A via OTA).

I watched the game (timeshifted) on the 3410A and it looked pretty good. Afterwards, I took a look at what I'd recorded on my PC and found that the file created from the Comcast signal was a lot smaller than the one the OTA signal.

That is when I edited the files to remove anything that was not recorded during the game. That is when I discovered that the bitrate was over 3.5 MBps lower for the Comcast version of the game.

My conclusion is I'm going to keep the 3410A (they're still a great source of HD material!) and that anyone who cares about picture quality should stay away from Comcast whenever possible and go OTA. I've only got Comcast basic cable, and I'm dropping it at the end of the month.

In fairness, I am very biased against Comcast - to the point that I bought a TivoHD rather than deal with them. My conclusion may simply be a justification of that purchase :).

OK! That clears things up quite a bit.

I do not have cable, but, I am not surprised you found the quality to be lower than the OTA signal. Many (all?) cable companies muck with the feeds they get. Whether it's on purpose to expand their bandwidth or because of crappy transmission equipment, I don't know. For broadcast TV, I only have OTA reception, no cable, no satellite. Sure, I miss some HD programming, but, I'll get what I want on DVD eventually.

I'm interested in the antenna amplifier you have. We had a storm this winter which knocked down my antenna. I lost a good portion of it as well as about 10' of pole. So, my OTA signal I'm receiving isn't as strong as it used to be. I'd like to add an amplifier, but haven't been able to find one for regular broadcast HD.

The amp is actually a pre-amp that attaches to the end of the antenna. It appears very simple to setup. The model I got installed is a Winegard AP 8780 Chromstar 2000 Series Pre Amplifier and it provides 28 dB of gain for UHF. The installer charged me $58 for it, it lists for about $100.

My Fox reception was terrible (the middle to low end of poor) before I got the pre-amp, and now it is on the high end of normal. However, pre-amps can cause as many problems as they solve - I'd talk to an installer and see what he believes you need.

"Installer. I don't need no stinking installer!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Thanks for the info. I appreciate it. I'll go by the HiFi shop tonight and see if they have anything or what they might recommend. I'm searching through the forums and found the thread on Antennas, rotators, boosters in the HDTV Receptions Hardware forum. There is quite a bit of information there. Is your preamp A/C powered?

One caution with Preamps at the antenna:

They need power to run, which is on the center conductor of the coax.

The RF energy is coupled from that center conductor, and DC power Blocked at the bottom of the feed, where the DC Power supply resides.

Put a Note on the Coax: "DC Voltage on Center Conductor" on that coax, so you don't in-advertantly connect something else to it, and harm the device due to the DC Power on that center conductor...

Make sure it is a good unit; One that is less suceptable to RF Overloading... So that local Broadcast, CB, or Ham transmissions do not overload the unit.

One caution with Preamps at the antenna:
Put a Note on the Coax: "DC Voltage on Center Conductor" on that coax, so you don't in-advertantly connect something else to it, and harm the device due to the DC Power on that center conductor...

Good advice! I put a big red tag on the end of mine after reading this...

I haven't posted in this thread in awhile as my 3410 has been humming right along, but I just developed the "dvr initializing" error that won't go away. I did a bit of research and looks like I need to replace the drive.

If I put a new drive in do I need to format it first. Or does the 3410 take care of anything and I just can put the drive in right out of the box (with the jumper set to master)?

jcg

I love my 3410, but I'm getting really tired of it not recording shows when I forget to unplug/replug it.

Are there any other HDTV OTA DVR's out there which don't require a subscription, such as a Tivo? I don't connect to cable or SAT, just use an over-the-air antenna.

Tim-
I never thought I'd pay for a subscription, but the TivoHD is such a nice recorder that it is worth considering. The subscription costs me $8.33 a month (prepaying 3 years). When you consider total cost of ownership of the TivoHD vs the 3410A, the Tivo only costs me more after 7 years. And I get to take advantage of the real benefits of the Tivo. You can buy one and try it for 30 days...give it a shot!

TivoHD is a lot cheaper than cable (Comcast wanted an additional $65 a month to give me HD and a HD DVR), supports OTA recording, and can be easily be upgraded to a large hard drive (took me less than an hour to setup and install a 500GB hard drive).

Oh, and there is nothing else currently available for OTA recording that I know about (although you can probably get discontinued the Sony DVR on Ebay).

I love my 3410, but I'm getting really tired of it not recording shows when I forget to unplug/replug it.

Are there any other HDTV OTA DVR's out there which don't require a subscription, such as a Tivo? I don't connect to cable or SAT, just use an over-the-air antenna.

Nothing new. There's the old Sony's. I've given up on a STB solution and just settled in to the pain and suffering of using a ATSC capture card in a HTPC.

I prefer to unplug/replug and sometimes reset.

I am confused Hyrax. I pay a total of $80.47 a month from Comcast for High speed Intenet and premium service which includes HBOHD and Showtime HD and every other HD on my cable 30+ in all. I thought the TIVO box did not provide subscription services to programming. Please correct me if I am wrong that your $8.00 a month only provides the listings and box activation.

I haven't posted in this thread in awhile as my 3410 has been humming right along, but I just developed the "dvr initializing" error that won't go away. I did a bit of research and looks like I need to replace the drive.

If I put a new drive in do I need to format it first. Or does the 3410 take care of anything and I just can put the drive in right out of the box (with the jumper set to master)?

jcg

The LG will ask you for permission to format the disk when you try to set up the DVR for the first time after installing the new hard drive. I forgot how I jumpered mine, but the drive I removed was a regular consumer electronics Seagate with a jumper diagram, so I would just jumper the new drive the same way the old one was jumpered.

Tim-
I never thought I'd pay for a subscription, but the TivoHD is such a nice recorder that it is worth considering. The subscription costs me $8.33 a month (prepaying 3 years). When you consider total cost of ownership of the TivoHD vs the 3410A, the Tivo only costs me more after 7 years. And I get to take advantage of the real benefits of the Tivo. You can buy one and try it for 30 days...give it a shot!

TivoHD is a lot cheaper than cable (Comcast wanted an additional $65 a month to give me HD and a HD DVR), supports OTA recording, and can be easily be upgraded to a large hard drive (took me less than an hour to setup and install a 500GB hard drive).

Oh, and there is nothing else currently available for OTA recording that I know about (although you can probably get discontinued the Sony DVR on Ebay).

Thanks, Hydrax. Perhaps I'll look for the Sony DVR on eBay and compare to the LG. :( Even at $8, I don't know. I already own the LG and it's not costing me anything. So, to BUY the TivoHD only for OTA and then have to pay on top of that purchase price a monthly subscription just for the listing service? What a racket. :mad:

OK. I've looked over the info on the TivoHD and the Sony HD DVRs. Doesn't look like the Sony's are a "steal". With a 3year prepaid subscription, the TivoHD is $600 retail. Not horrible for a 2 tuner DVR and the HD seems easy enough to replace.

So, what's the going price on a 3410? Maybe I'll sell mine and go the Tivo HD route. (I can't believe I'm thinking that) "you don't understand the power of the dark side"

Leave it as a Master Drive, and plug it in... It will automatically initialize it without asking. Yes, It will take longer than a normal bootup..

OK, thanks for the replies. I plugged in the drive, plugged the 3410 back in and after a bit longer boot than normal everything is working fine again.

jcg

Well, I made the switch to the dark side. I ordered my TivoHD. Once I get it and am comfortable with how it works, I'll be selling my LST-3410A. It's a sad, sad day.

Tim,

i am so disappointed that you chose to not keep up the good fight. Recently, I gave up using my 12 ft. C/Ku band dish that I had used since 1987 to receive the most glorious picture you can imagine in SD and HD. The cable digital feed is so good and their price is now competitive with C band satellite. More HD at a lower price made me switch. I feel your pain for switching but hate to see the die-hard 3410A folks giving up. Mine now requires several plugs a day and has become unreliable. I did get the Motorola advanced DVR from Comcast that records two programs at once and it works superbly. I record all 4 networks every night and catch HBO and Showtimes as well as PBS in HD. Life is good.

Tim,

i am so disappointed that you chose to not keep up the god fight. Recently, I gave up using my 12 ft. C/Ku band dish that I had used since 1987 to receive the most glorious picture you can imagine in SD and HD. The cable digital feed is so good and their price is now competitive with C band satellite. More HD at a lower price made me switch. I feel your pain for switching but hate to see the diehard d3410A folks giving up. Mine now requires several plugs a day and has become unreliable. I did get the moyorola DVR from comcast and it works superbly.

Yeah, I hate it. I've only ORDERED the Tivo and I feel like I've betrayed my best friend. :( But, my family have missed too many recordings to continue. I'm at the point where I have to remember to unplug/replug before I goto bed otherwise I'm worried about what will happen the entire next day. As long as I do that, all is well. But, it's no longer "worth" it. I need something that "just works". Hell, I was just about to put in a 400GB hard drive into the 3410A. It's still sitting here in the box. Unfortunately, I've had it too long to return it, so I guess I'll just include it when I sell the LST. :(

Tim
Believe it or not, there are times when you want to record a 3rd show. Think about keeping the 3410A for those rare occasions - that's why I'm keeping mine.

I thought about that, but I don't have the ability to record 2 shows right now! So, seems kinda crazy to keep the LG to be able to record 3!

Tim-
Yeah, I thought the same at first, but Tivo is really evil and finds all sorts of interesting things to record. What really got me was the beginning of the new season shows, Football, and Ken Burns 'The War' being shown almost every night. It was just easier for me to record Sunday Night & Monday Night football on the 3410A. Now the Red Sox's are in the play-offs and there are too many things to record again.

Yeah, I ran into a problem last week wanting to record The War and other season premiers which conflicted. Fortunately I found out my local PBS station aired The War overnight so I was able to record it that way. Having the 2 tuners in the TivoHD will help significantly. At this point, I really can't imagine wanting to record more than 2 things at the same time.

If anyone comes across a dead 3410a, I'm looking for one as a parts unit....
Jan

If anyone comes across a dead 3410a, I'm looking for one as a parts unit....
Jan

well, mine's not dead, but I also went the tivo route...I had the 3410a upstairs in the family room, but I wanted to be able to record 2 things at once, and more importantly, Multi-room-viewing is coming for tivohd and the series 3 (which I have in the home theater) so that was a good incentive too...

Anyway, if you don't find a 3410a elsewhere, mine's not doing anything anymore, so we could talk...

Ron... Check your mail... You have Paypal.

email me pls.

email me pls.
There are two for sale in the marketplace. I'd jump on one of them; however, my stockpile is adequate for the time being :D

I actually saw Tims and almost bought it, then i read about having to unplug it a lot and only being able to record one show at a time kills me. I'm ordering a Tivo HD as well.

Anyone with multiple 3410's do any restrictions on the IR pickup on unit or remote to limit the amount of "inadvertant multiple machine controlling" by the remote?

I've done some electrical tape on receiver with mixed results.... Thinking of putting a tube on the front of the remote's IR transmitter to see if limiting the IR transmission "spead" helps any.....

Anyone do any tests along that idea?

Anyone with multiple 3410's do any restrictions on the IR pickup on unit or remote to limit the amount of "inadvertant multiple machine controlling" by the remote?

I've done some electrical tape on receiver with mixed results.... Thinking of putting a tube on the front of the remote's IR transmitter to see if limiting the IR transmission "spead" helps any.....

Anyone do any tests along that idea?

Not sure if you saw my pm, Jan...but what about leaving one on at all times? Then when you press the power button (don't use discrete, obviously) it switches which one is on and therefore receiving ir commands.

Hmmm...I'm trying to remember if it had to be off to download, though...if that was the case maybe you could set up a timer macro (like with a pronto remote) to turn it off (with discrete) at night...but...then how do you turn on just one...manually, I guess?

I actually saw Tims and almost bought it, then i read about having to unplug it a lot and only being able to record one show at a time kills me. I'm ordering a Tivo HD as well.

I knew I was going to knock myself out of selling this thing. ;)

I run 3 within 4 ft. of each other organized at the points of a triangle. By careful alignment and with years of experience I can make them respond individually 80% of the time.

Anyone with multiple 3410's do any restrictions on the IR pickup on unit or remote to limit the amount of "inadvertant multiple machine controlling" by the remote?

I've done some electrical tape on receiver with mixed results.... Thinking of putting a tube on the front of the remote's IR transmitter to see if limiting the IR transmission "spead" helps any.....

Anyone do any tests along that idea?

Never tried this myself, but would polarizing lenses help? You could put a polarizer on the remote, and then others on the two machines. You would have to rotate the lenses on the machines 90 degrees with respect to each other. That way, when one machine is getting an IR signal, the other won't, depending on how you are holding the remote. The only bugaboo is that you would have to remember which way to orient the remote for each receiver.

Now that I've got 3 units, and they all sit within 6' of one another (One Above, One Below, and one to the right of [and almost in the middle vertically between the first two]) of a 62" DLP, Remote control of these units (Because they are so close together) becomes a pain.

I've tried 2 approaches, and it appears that one of them is much beter than the other, so I share this information.

First approach: Use Black electrician's tape to block off the sensor on the 3410A (More or less over the "Record" button [See manual]).
After one evening of moving tape around, I'm pretty confidant that I haven't achieved anything other than desensitizing the receiver... Get it to the point where they hardly react to the remote, and you end up not being able to control the unit when you want to...
End test one.. Results: Successful, but inconclusive. Cannot achieve repeatable results...

Second approach: Do something to narrow the transmitter, as desensitization of the receivers causes intermittant results....

Since I have multiple remotes now, I took one and experimented with various rubber washers and tape. I took a deep tapered rubber washer with an inner diameter of ~1/3" outer diameter of 5/8", about 1/2" long (Some sort of plumbing sealing washer) and taped it to the front of the remote.
It blocks the transmitter, making the transmitted IR beam narrow.. at least that is the approach.........
Results seem very promising!!

More later!

P.S: My Wife is a Video Junky!!!

Chicagoland 3410A Users! (Something I infirred a week ago, and am still waiting for confirmation on, but haven't received...)

Someone from this forum alerted me to this a couple months ago, but I didn't check it out, until I got my 3rd unit, and after upgrading the firmware, and upgrading the power supply caps, and putting it in service, I confirmed it on all three units.....

It appears that WLS-TV Channel 7 (that's x07 for you TVG Diagnostic snoopers!)
is now the TVG V7 Primary station in Chicagoland!

I've got calls into people who can confirm, but haven't received a callback yet.
Once I do will re-post.

All 3 of my 3410a's now report x07 as host channel for Chicagoland!
(PS: I'm a tech support Engineer at WLS-TV, and one of my jobs was to install and troubleshoot the Gemstar TVG V7 system! OK! It's out of the bag!!! I'm very proud to have improved the system!)

Jan,

I'm not sure why you ar unable to control the three units. I am 20 ft away and have no problem selecting units separately. Try using older batteries. The beam width decreases with battery age

No trouble trying to control the units....
Problem is: Trying to control, without Controlling MULTIPLE Units!

Trying to Decrease transmit contol, without decreasing receiver sensitivity!

We're about 12' away from the units, and a POWER ON/OFF command can control all Three units!

sorry Tim, I was honestly a click a way from purchasing it. Then i read this post
honestly i don't mind the unplugging/plugging problem im sure i could fix that. its just that it only has one tuner and for the price i want 2. I'm sure someone will snag it. FYI I saw 2 sell on ebay for $400 in under 2 hours

His unit might work perfectly well for someone in a different market, as the problem could stem from the host channel or the provider's end (as it does more often than not).

For individual control I use two X10 universal modules/X10 IR receiver to gate Xantech IR emitters: selected via Pronto remote macros. Works well.

sorry Tim, I was honestly a click a way from purchasing it. Then i read this post
honestly i don't mind the unplugging/plugging problem im sure i could fix that. its just that it only has one tuner and for the price i want 2. I'm sure someone will snag it. FYI I saw 2 sell on ebay for $400 in under 2 hours

:) I figure I'll give it a couple more days before I put it up on eBay. I'm not in a rush and would much prefer to sell to an AVSer.

His unit might work perfectly well for someone in a different market, as the problem could stem from the host channel or the provider's end (as it does more often than not).

Ah, good point Rammitinski. The guide is most often the problem. The LG is very susceptible to bad guide data, causing the lockups most people have... thus the unplug/plug requirement to reset the guide data. If my OTA guide data is correct more often than in other markets, it would make sense my unit requires the reset more often. Although, I don't know if "more often" is accurate, as I've read of others that unplug theirs daily to eliminate problems while some only have to once a week or so. So frustrating.

Of course, that won't change the fact that it only has a single tuner. ;)

OK, heard from the TVG folks...
A change was made such that both WLS and WFLD share the same TV Guide Priority. It used to be that one channel was the primary TVG station, and other the Secondary TVG Station. Now they both share primary status.

Because the 3410a's, when the start looking for a TVG station, count up from 2, they will encounter the lower channel first.
Here in Chicagoland, WLS is on Channel 7 on OTA and Cable. WFLD is on Channel 32 OTA and 12 Cable.

That's why all 3 of my units locked to WLS instead of WFLD: It encountered TVG on CH7 before TVG on Channel 12 or 32.

The same thing would apply in your area.

Of course, that won't change the fact that it only has a single tuner. ;)Well, if you have the appropriate tuners in the TV, you could always split the signal to watch the TV while recording other channels with the LG.

If you have cable, and you're still getting the extended basic analog channels on your line, you can watch those on the TV while recording others on the LG.

I know it's not the perfect solution, but at least it's something. If you don't do a lot of recording while watching other things, it may not be too much of a bother. You'll still be able to watch all the new season's first-run major network programs in digital HD or SD on the TV if it has a QAM tuner.

I've split our Cable and OTA feeds quite successfully.
Cable: After amp and x3 splitter (which still passes whatever it needs to the cable box), the following is done:
One if three feeds is terminated at splitter. This allows me to do a signal strength reading without disconnecting anything.
Second of three feeds goes to cable box.
Third of three feeds goes to a CHannel 4 insterter, Antenna input.
(Cable box composite output and stereo audio feeds a Channel 4 modulator. YUV ouputs and stereo audio feeds HD Display)
Channel 4 RF feed from modulator feeds CH4 input on Inserter. Inserter filters out Channel 4 from Cable, mixes in CH4 from Modulator, and outputs Cable + Ch4.
That Cable +4 feeds an amp & Splitter, that drives HD Display Cable in, all DVR Cable in's, SVHS RF in, and a feed to basement where another amp and splitter feeds the rest of the house.
Whatever is dialed up on the cable box is then on Channel 4.
Should the need arise, I can do the same thing on Channel 3, but the RF balancing would be a bit of a pain.

I did same thing with OTA signals: Antenna, Amp, Splitter feeding DVR's and Display Antenna inputs.

Total outlay for this ~$80.00. Has been working like a charm for years!

Jan,
That sounds like an great setup. Could you post the make and model numbers of your splitters, modulator and CH4 inserter?

Modulator is one I never heard of: Sterem 203-101 (Got it off Ebay) Switchable CH3/CH4 output.
Motorola Broadband Drop Amps Models BDA-100*1 and BDA-100*4 (One and Four outputs)
Truspec SC4 (ch4) SC3 (ch3) http://www.hometech.com/video/combiner.html (More info on them-- I bought elsewhere)
the splitters were whatever I had, and some I got from Menards... Nothing highpriced.

Hope that helps.

Wife reports that after about a week of testing, she is happy with the rubber plumbing thing that I put on the 3410a remote. It has narrowed the remote control beam without desensitizing the receiver.

It's a tapered rubber washer about 1/2-3/4" in diameter, 3/8-1/2" thick, with a 3/8" hole it.

Wife is happy with it.... That's all that counts!!!

After a month of getting the dreaded AV1, AV2 invalid channel message and having to unplug and reset everynight to get the white Guide light to come on and download, the unit is suddenley working correctly again. Its got to have something to do with bad tv guide data. I am in the Seattle area and the guide data comes from PBS channel 9 KCTS. Wish these units weren't so touchy. Its definetly a love/hate relationship with these things! Chasie

Chasieb,

While I wish it were so, you're troubles are not over. I have 3 and they require daily re-plugs. Often, the channel will not record or it will jump from one channel in a subset to another. When compared against the latest Motorola DVR that Comcast provides for $12.00/mo., these things are beginning to look a little bit long in the tooth. I wish I knew why they stopped working. Jan I am sure has studied these much more than I have but I now believe that failures occur because of a combination of poor design, cheap components and lousy firmware that did not keep up with a rapidly changing digital broadcasting methodology. Remember, these came out 4 years ago and probably were designed 6 to 7 years ago when HD and ATS/QAM was in its infancy. I am getting tired of replugging but the picture is first rate so I will continue to use them until I can afford a change.

Art, while I am sure you are right about having more troubles in the future with my unit, I am glad that for now it is picking up the TV Guide data on its own without a daily replug. Will probably end up getting a Sony HDD 250 on ebay sometime soon. Chasie

It seems as though my TivoHD is rapidly making it so I no longer need to use my 3410A. I'e used my 3410A once in the last month, and suspect that I'll be using it even less in the future. Last week they (Tivo) enabled the use of eSATA drives for external storage. This is heavily DRM laden, but is still an easy way to add a TB or more of archive space. I already replaced the 160 GB internal drive with a 1 TB drive, so the total storage potential is pretty amazing.

Yesterday, they (Tivo) enabled TivoToGo, and overnight I moved ~100GB of high def shows from my Tivo to my computer. The downside is that it uses 100 Mbps Ethernet instead of 1000 Mbps Ethernet, so it takes about 1 - 1.75 times the playing time to move something (depending on the bitrate of the show).

The good news is that I can apparently remove all DRM with ease (I've yet to really test this out, but my first tests seem positive).

The unfortunate news that the only thing you can count on copying to your PC are OTA broadcasts - most HD and digital cable stations are marked as do not copy.

Hyrax,

You and I go back to the beginning of this thread. It will be a sad day when the last unplug/replug is done and no one comes here any longer to comment on the joy these machines provided.

It seems as though my TivoHD is rapidly making it so I no longer need to use my 3410A. I'e used my 3410A once in the last month, and suspect that I'll be using it even less in the future. Last week they (Tivo) enabled the use of eSATA drives for external storage. This is heavily DRM laden, but is still an easy way to add a TB or more of archive space. I already replaced the 160 GB internal drive with a 1 TB drive, so the total storage potential is pretty amazing.

Yesterday, they (Tivo) enabled TivoToGo, and overnight I moved ~100GB of high def shows from my Tivo to my computer. The downside is that it uses 100 Mbps Ethernet instead of 1000 Mbps Ethernet, so it takes about 1 - 1.75 times the playing time to move something (depending on the bitrate of the show).

The good news is that I can apparently remove all DRM with ease (I've yet to really test this out, but my first tests seem positive).

The unfortunate news that the only thing you can count on copying to your PC are OTA broadcasts - most HD and digital cable stations are marked as do not copy.

I did the internal 1TB upgrade on my TiVo HD last night. Quite amazing to see the 144 hours of HD recording available! :eek: I also got the 9.2 update which supports eSATA, though I don't see a reason to go that way with the internal 1TB. Thanks for the heads up on the TTG upgrade. Going to check that out now.

We haven't used the 3410A at all in 2 weeks, so, it is now permanently removed from the equipment rack. Sadly, it's still for sale. :(

My recent experience with our beloved 3410a is the required daily unplug/replug, in which the Guide light would be on for say, 1/2 hr then goes out until I unplug/replug again. Yesterday I did that 3x. The Guide had "No Listing" for all channels in all fields, except for Spike TV. PQ is this machine's saving grace. Gotta love it.

I've been lurking here soaking up the info since the threads inception and it's been great.

I live in an area with little to no OTA reception and I have an insatiable DVR addiction. Partner the LST-3410a with a basic cable subscription (less than $15.00 per month) and I experienced HD-DVR nirvana through its QAM tuner for the past several years.

At one point I owned 3 of these machines - all upgraded with 300 gig hard drives. The guide problems have killed my joy however, and I sold the last of my 3410's about a week ago. I replaced it with an LG 50" plasma with built-in DVR (great deal at Vann's).

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, especially Hyrax, Jan J and MrHiFi, for all of your advice, knowledge and kind words of encouragement...

juancmjr, have you ever Reset the TV Guide? It will (For about 30 min) render the TV Guide senseless, but I've found that a reset sometimes gets rid problems...

It's the TVG Messages thing, then 653214741 If it took, you'll see TV Guide blank, then come back pretty dumb.... Leave it off for a couple hours, and then all the data should have returned....

Hi Jan. I've done TVG reset many times, just not with this last Guide problem. I recorded a show yesterday evening and Guide light didn't come on after finishing the recording, so I thought here we go again. This morning the Guide light is on so hopefully, Guide info is downloading. I'll leave it alone so the machine can get as much as it can.

I've been lurking here soaking up the info since the threads inception and it's been great.

I live in an area with little to no OTA reception and I have an insatiable DVR addiction. Partner the LST-3410a with a basic cable subscription (less than $15.00 per month) and I experienced HD-DVR nirvana through its QAM tuner for the past several years.

At one point I owned 3 of these machines - all upgraded with 300 gig hard drives. The guide problems have killed my joy however, and I sold the last of my 3410's about a week ago. I replaced it with an LG 50" plasma with built-in DVR (great deal at Vann's).

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, especially Hyrax, Jan J and MrHiFi, for all of your advice, knowledge and kind words of encouragement...


Well, BigFella... I'm with you. I've had a nice long ride with my 3410A (fixing it twice through LG, come to learn through this forum the problem was probably just a bad hard drive and I could have done it myself, doh! :eek: )

I've finally sold my 3410A. Thanks to all, best wishes and I'll see you in another thread. ;)

Chicagoland 3410A Users! (Something I infirred a week ago, and am still waiting for confirmation on, but haven't received...)

It appears that WLS-TV Channel 7 (that's x07 for you TVG Diagnostic snoopers!)
is now the TVG V7 Primary station in Chicagoland!

Hi Jan J,
I am reading your post with great interest as a loyal follower of this thread and avid 3410a user. "TVG V7" is the channel which pushes the Guide? Is this the digital or analog station (i.e. 7.0 or 7.1 or 7.?)?

This is and has been one of my concerns for the future as my belief was/is that when the analog stations are shut off in the future we will no longer get a Guide :(. This will truely make the 3410a and machines from that era obsolete (boat anchors).

Sincerely,
Martin

[QUOTE=Tim Winders;11941897]Ah, good point Rammitinski. The guide is most often the problem. The LG is very susceptible to bad guide data, causing the lockups most people have... thus the unplug/plug requirement to reset the guide data.QUOTE]

Hi Guys,
I'm in the Chicago area. I program my 3410a to record 3-4 times per week, some regularly some one time from OTA nearly all HD. "Lockups" or the "Guide not filling" for me only occur when the scheduled program is cancelled or moved to another time or day.
This has only happened six (6) times in three years. I have used one or all the solutions offered here to remedy the problem. Unfortunately :( several times I had to re-initialize the hard drive loosing all the Soundstage, NOVA, Frontline and Wideangle programs I was saving.

I need more drives and a way to manage them.

Sincerely,
Martin

Martin,
I asked a similar question about the 3410a and analog/digital cable systems a while ago and was told that the Guide for the 3410a would be inoperable after the analog cutoff/switch to FiOS since Guide info was transmitted via analog stations. I take it to mean that the 3410a would still receive signals and we'd be able to record them. However, since there's no Guide to preset recordings, we might actually have to be at home to turn on the machine, press record and set the recording length manually. Not very convenient when we're out living life, which is one reason why we have these machines. As for them becoming boat anchors, in my system I also have a Mitsubishi DVHS VCR which records and plays back HD programming through Firewire(1394). The only way to watch those recordings is to connect the VCR through the 3410a via 1394 and out to my RPTV. If I had a Mitsubishi TV with 1394 in the TV itself I wouldn't have to do that. I see you also use the QAM tuner to record. Hopefully these machines could see use as QAM tuners connected to 1394 equipped HDDVDR/BDR machines but, that remains to be seen. The 3410a might have life in it after the analog cutoff, just not as a fully functional DVR.

Martin,
As for them becoming boat anchors, in my system I also have a Mitsubishi DVHS VCR which records and plays back HD programming through Firewire(1394).

Hi juancmjr,
Thanks for the information. Funny that you should bring up the Mitsubishi DVHS as I bought one some years ago for my father-in-law (Mitsubishi TV w/Firewire). He could not see the value in it at the time and I sold it on Ebay for him (large profit). I was aware of archiving HD content to the DVHS, timing was wrong for the 3410a (mine).

As you said; the beauty in these machines is the Guide and being able to program a week in advance and watch whenever. I have explored some of the other options as a replacement trying to minimize equipment obsolescence and to get a more reliable Guide.

Tivo is certainly an option but I am resistant to subscription costs. Home Theater Computers just don't seem to work (for me). Seems the tuners reception is problematic, standby recovery is not smooth meaning you have to leave the PC on forever. Both offer Internet Guide updates so you'd think they would be perfect at providing scheduling but no! The providers of the Guide(s) don't put in all the channels (I'm in Chicago).

Sincerely,
Martin

WFLD & WLS 32.0 and 7.0 are both transmitting TVG V7.

I know, I installed it at 7.0.

WFLD & WLS 32.0 and 7.0 are both transmitting TVG V7.

I know, I installed it at 7.0.

Oh this is not a good sign. Is Gemstar looking forward to the analog end date (January 1, 2009) so they can stop supporting the Guide? I was hoping this would be the continuing story.

We need an experiement to see if the 3410a can download the Guide from a digital channel.

Sincerely,
Martin

Hi guys,

I continue using two LG 3410A's and now use a Motorola/Comast 3416 HD DVR. After the hell we have lived through, the 3416 is a wonder to behold. In its busiest mode, it records two programs at once and allows you to watch a recorded program at the same time. I did that last night with 3 HD programs. It is amazing how fast the operating system must be to process so much information at one time. That is 3 separate streams being processed at the same time....AMAZING!!!! The PQ is every bit as good as the 3410A which I still consider superb.

Martin,
I asked a similar question about the 3410a and analog/digital cable systems a while ago and was told that the Guide for the 3410a would be inoperable after the analog cutoff/switch to FiOS since Guide info was transmitted via analog stations. I take it to mean that the 3410a would still receive signals and we'd be able to record them. However, since there's no Guide to preset recordings, we might actually have to be at home to turn on the machine, press record and set the recording length manually.

I don't think it is that bad. I urge you to explore the VCR+ button on your remote.

It seems like my guide is "always" screwed up; I am unplugging/replugging to reset it nearly every day. Worse yet, if it screws up again before starting a recording, it doesn't record.

I have not done this enough to be completely sure, but it seems more reliably just letting the guide be empty and using the timed mode (via VCR+ button). In this mode, you can either enter the VCR+ code from another TV guide, OR enter start/stop date/time and channel info. I do that latter, and it hasn't missed a recording yet, (after pissing me off several times after resetting and filling the guide). After analog shutoff, we may have to set the clock manually too (I don't know if the time also comes from the guide channel), but timed recordings seem pretty functional.

I have to wonder if the TV Guide folks realize that machines with the older TV Guide firmware get screwed up so badly every day by the new software (if indeed that is what is doing it). My experience using the timer rather than the Guide to record did not make any difference. Once the machine screws up in one of several ways, like losing the guide completely (no guide graphics), no program info., no time update, channel numbers go awry, one must unplug/replug.

Now, to contradict myself.... A 3410A at my father's home (he is 93) is never recorded on nor is the guide used. He just watches the stations. It always works.

Mine has screwed up twice using the time/channel setting. Both times I had the guide, but wanted to record from 56-2 (the digital, non-HD PBS channel) for which there is never any guide information.

I never thought of using VCR+ with this machine because it didn't occur to me to do so, and it's not a VCR but it performs the same function. Wouldn't using VCR+ still require some sort of guide information? How exactly does the machine know what to record without program listings? A VCR+ programming code should correspond to information transmitted over the cable system right? Otherwise programming in a date and time should be pretty straight foward. By the way, my TVGOS is currently functioning properly and has been used to record several programs in the last 2 days. Go figure.

Is Gemstar looking forward to the analog end date (January 1, 2009) so they can stop supporting the Guide?Tha cable companies have to keep the lifeline basic analog tier 'till at least 2012, so cable can still send it on analog if they choose to.

I believe that Gemstar intends to support it on analog as long as they can.

The problem with these units is even if you schedule your recordings manually like a vcr, which is how I use it, corrupted TV Guide will still mess things up. You will still get invalid AV1 or AV2 pop up and the programs will not record.

I never thought of using VCR+ with this machine because it didn't occur to me to do so, and it's not a VCR but it performs the same function. Wouldn't using VCR+ still require some sort of guide information? How exactly does the machine know what to record without program listings? A VCR+ programming code should correspond to information transmitted over the cable system right? Otherwise programming in a date and time should be pretty straight foward. By the way, my TVGOS is currently functioning properly and has been used to record several programs in the last 2 days. Go figure.

The VCR+ page gives you two options:
*You can fill in a little form with date, start time, stop time, channel
*or, at bottom of form, you can enter VCR+ code

I don't know the VCR+ code algorithm, but it somehow encodes the date/time/channel info in a small number of digits. I just enter date/time/channel directly as I know it for my favorite programs vs looking up the code, which is a nuisance, and more than offsets entering fewer digits.

I began using it Sundays to pad CBS because of football overruns; now I use it all the time.

As to other remarks above, yes, the guide can still screw up. If the guide is just empty, it still records via VCR+. If neither the guide nor VCR+ page will even load when you push the button, you have to unplug/replug.

I'm not sure on AV1 error. I have had it recording via guide, but so far I haven't via VCR+ (timed, not really VCR+ code).

Mostly, I program it in the afternoon to record some evening shows while I watch others, and usually watch the recordings the next day. Recently I was away for a long weekend, and time-programmed several recordings. Although the guide was empty when I got home, it had recorded everything. That wouldn't have happened (given my current batting average) with guide-based recording.

You can generate your own VCR+ codes with these somewhat limited applets:
http://home.blarg.net/~doyle/vcrplus.html
http://www.gginc.biz/java/vcr1.html
There is also some C code floating around the internet if your so inclined to write your own.

Or
You can go to the TV Guide web page and lookup the codes in their online TV guide:
http://www.tvguide.com/

I think it is too early to write off what may happen after Feb 2009.
Cable companies still may want feeds from stations for people who don't upgrade.
Except for transmitter, The equipment for the -0 channel could be re-purposed for the -2 channel.
It would be quite easy to add a downconverter set for center cut, and use existing -1 feed to feed cable companies as a legacy -0 feed... for the 'legacy' users. TVG V7 could easily tag onto those feeds, and the existing firmware would re-scan to find another source of data. Somehow I don't think the Gemstar folks are ready to retire yet...

We'll never know till we get there.

The problem with these units is even if you schedule your recordings manually like a vcr, which is how I use it, corrupted TV Guide will still mess things up. You will still get invalid AV1 or AV2 pop up and the programs will not record.

I do OTA only and give the 3410s an invalid zip as well as tell them I have cable (I don't)--I get no guide data so no problems requiring unplug, etc.

I do OTA only and give the 3410s an invalid zip as well as tell them I have cable (I don't)--I get no guide data so no problems requiring unplug,etc. Good tip! I will have to try that if my unit starts acting up again. Chasie

I think it is too early to write off what may happen after Feb 2009.
Cable companies still may want feeds from stations for people who don't upgrade.
. . . TVG V7 could easily tag onto those feeds, and the existing firmware would re-scan to find another source of data. Somehow I don't think the Gemstar folks are ready to retire yet...I doubt that Gemstar will work too hard to keep their analog guides working after the shutdown, especially if they have developed a digital version, but if they do I think it would make sense for them to put it on the analog TV Guide Channel most cable companies carry.

How many receivers use Gemstar analog guide data? Are new ones coming out that use it? The only ones I know of are the LG and Sony DVRs and an ATI All-In-Wonder I used years ago (the guide was unreliable on that as well, even though it came from the Internet).

How many receivers use Gemstar analog guide data? Are new ones coming out that use it? The only ones I know of are the LG and Sony DVRs and an ATI All-In-Wonder I used years ago (the guide was unreliable on that as well, even though it came from the Internet).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TVGOS.

There have been countless TV's, VCR's, and HDD/DVD or DVD recorders that have included different versions of it over the years.

My motorola 3416 uses it too.

Tha cable companies have to keep the lifeline basic analog tier 'till at least 2012, so cable can still send it on analog if they choose to.

I believe that Gemstar intends to support it on analog as long as they can.

Hi Rammitinski,
That is great information! Having never used the 3410a with cable (OTA only) I have not struggled with that side of the machine.

Sincerely,
Martin

It seems that no one has posted here in a while because most of the postings on this thread seem to revolve around TVGOS is malfunctioning in some way or, this machine is not the focus of your system. Since my last post on 10/30 it's been performing perfectly and many programs recorded using Guide. On 2 occasions after a recording the machine didn't turn itself off but I turned it off manually and still receive Guide data. A-bloody-mazing. Well, have a good Thanksgiving all.

I believe a lot of people have moved on to Tivo units so they don't use their 3410's as much if at all. Even with all its flaws I still love and use mine everyday mainly because of the flawless picture quality and because there is no subcription fee involved. Chasie

I finally broke down and purchased two Series 3 TiVo units, which are connected via my Ethernet LAN. This gives me the ability to view the recorded programs from each other's unit and view pictures and play music from my computer (if your into that). Most importantly, the fast forward feature has this incredible software which skips through commericials without the need to back up several imes to resume playback. It also has the ability to download HD content to a PC and then archive to HD DVD or Blue Ray disk. I have not tried this yet but I have downloaded to my Touch iPod, which is very cool.

I still love my LG for its excellent guide interface which makes it very easy to verify and schedule recordings. And its ability to archive to DVHS. If TiVo had these feature, it would be the perfect DVR.

Since my last post on 10/30 it's been performing perfectly and many programs recorded using Guide.

No such luck here. I gave up and told it I was on cable.

Wife is still using our 3410a's. Agreed, it has been pretty 'quiet' here for a while.... Could be it's because there have been few transmitted TVG data errors.

Quiet is good!!!

I got a new Core 2 Duo MacBook and using VirtualDVHS am again getting great transfers from the 3410a to computer. I had tried using older Macs (an old G4 400 with add-in card and a G4 867 Powerbook) and had been getting flawed transfers. At least I think the transfers are good - I haven't looked at them start to finish yet. But the parts that hiccuped on the other machines don't seem to be a problem any more.

I believe a lot of people have moved on to Tivo units so they don't use their 3410's as much if at all.And us folks with our Sony DVR's are still rolling along, not paying any fees. :p

(At least until Feb. '07, anyway - for those of us like myself who use it for OTA only. With cable it *might* still be fully functionable.)

If anyone's still looking for the TiVoHD for a real good price, check out www.hideflifestyle.com. (Amazon gives the merchant a high rating.)

My beef with the Sony is the very slow response from the remote control and lack of archiving capability. Otherwise, it is very reliable.

I doubt that Gemstar will work too hard to keep their analog guides working after the shutdown, especially if they have developed a digital version, but if they do I think it would make sense for them to put it on the analog TV Guide Channel most cable companies carry.

How many receivers use Gemstar analog guide data? Are new ones coming out that use it? The only ones I know of are the LG and Sony DVRs and an ATI All-In-Wonder I used years ago (the guide was unreliable on that as well, even though it came from the Internet).

To the contrary, I recently spent the better part of a day working with our Gemstar tech rep getting digital TV Guide equipment (the Norpak TES-8 for you techies) installed on our ATSC feeds. We chatted a bit about the loss of analog data and how it may affect devices like the 3410A. While OTA analog is definitely going away, it's not going away for quite awhile on cable. Most TV stations will continue to provide standard definition signals to cable after February 2009. Gemstar is in the process of installing equipment at cable company headends to make sure that legacy TV Guide data remains available well past the analog OTA cutoff date. Therefore, if you have your 3410A hooked up to cable, you should be good to go. If not, your 3410A should continue to work just fine - it just won't get guide data. While the guide data is nice to have, it's not essential to the operation of your unit. You'll have to program it manually using the VCR+ function.

Too bad this unit wasn't designed like an old fashioned VCR where you could just program and record certain times and days without being dependent on TV Guide data. Chasie

You can. Use the "VCR+" function. You can either enter a VCR+ code (if you have one) or just enter the time, date and channel manually. I do it all of the time and it works perfectly.

Nice to hear that, John! I was kind of expecting that type of response from them!

You can. Use the "VCR+" function. You can either enter a VCR+ code (if you have one) or just enter the time, date and channel manually. I do it all of the time and it works perfectly.

I use the VCR+ button function, but then enter a timed recording.

I finally decided to try the VCR+ code, and it balked. The VCR+ codes in my paper's tv guide are the analog channel only, and it gives me a message the channel is not in my channel lineup (I've removed them, except the PBS station that sends TVGOS). I've looked on the Internet and tvguide.com and vcrpkus.com don't seem to offer vcr+ coes for the digital channel either (or I don't know what I'm doing).

Timed recording works fine, but if you have a solution, I'd like to try the VCR+ code.

To the contrary, I recently spent the better part of a day working with our Gemstar tech rep getting digital TV Guide equipment (the Norpak TES-8 for you techies) installed on our ATSC feeds. We chatted a bit about the loss of analog data and how it may affect devices like the 3410A. While OTA analog is definitely going away, it's not going away for quite awhile on cable. Most TV stations will continue to provide standard definition signals to cable after February 2009. Gemstar is in the process of installing equipment at cable company headends to make sure that legacy TV Guide data remains available well past the analog OTA cutoff date. Therefore, if you have your 3410A hooked up to cable, you should be good to go. If not, your 3410A should continue to work just fine - it just won't get guide data. While the guide data is nice to have, it's not essential to the operation of your unit. You'll have to program it manually using the VCR+ function.

JR, did you have any discussions about converter boxes intercepting the digital guide, translating to analog, and then being able to feed that to the 3410?
Also, doesn't VCR+ depend on some kind of signal to help translate the code into all the necessary info?
Enquiring minds want to know :)
FYI, I have had a 3410, SN 451..., working flawlessly here in Minneapolis for a couple of years. I have an Icy Dock MB123 external hard drive enclosure with a couple of racks with a 320 GB (5a320j0), 250 GB (5a250j0) and the original 120 GB hard drive. With 2 kids under 3, it's nice to be able to keep shows for months before getting around to watching them. I just wish the two 5a's were quieter.
Also also, this may have been said earlier, but I never saw it, if you press Pause, the 3410 will start timeshifting and pause right there. So you really can pause live TV.
Hope everyone is having a great turkey day, gobble gobble!

Timmer

Timmer,

This is not on point but feel I needd to comment. If you need to store TV programs in order to keep your children occupied, be prepared for serious educatiol and motivation issues in their future. Children under the age of 6 should never spend more than an hour a day in front of a TV alone. They need to be creating something...playing with a toy or a pair of spoons if that is what you have. TV destroys creativity. Please Timmer, force them to use their imagination. You may think I am crazy but what I am saying is true. I've seen the consequences of TV parenting. In a few years you will ask "why is Susie or Johnny acting this way?". The answer will be that they do not know anything else. Ask the men in here. I'll bet we all played with electric trains, built models and read. Many probably play an instrument. TV at 2-6 is a recipe for disaster.

For those of you in the market for a "new" 3410a, Contemporary Research has one of its version on you-know-where, item # 190164053032

This is significant, because usually the end user cannot buy one directly - he/she has to go through one of CR's installers; and CR does not even have these any more.

I've got a new Quickview 250g HDD here that I'd like to either add to my 3410A or replace the old 120g HDD. It would be nice to have them both, but if I have to pull the 120g I'll find a way to replay thru a computer or maybe HD-DVD or Blu-ray.

Someplace on the forum a contributor explained how he did it, just in case it's not obvious. Maybe that was 2 yrs ago, though and I can't find it now.

Can anyone point me to the details on upgrading the HDD?

Just find a HD like the original HD that does not try to correct every problem. Just unplug and replug the wires and Voila, all done. It reboots perfectly and works like it was the OE drive. BTW, I could not get the OE HD to work in my computer as a spare drive. The computer failed to recognize the drive I took out of the 3410A.

Isn't this the group that bought the remaining Motherboards from LG when LG decided to bail on the 3410a?