I agree with Art and avnstf. Tone down your input with an attenuator. Retail price should be about the $ of a decent splitter.

You said you had a rotor. Another way to attenuate is to turn your antenna away from the signal. Turn 90 or even 180 degrees from the source towers and do a re-scan. Try that first.

of course, it doesn't explain why the analog channels are snowy(?)Bad connection somewhere, maybe?

I didn't realize he was that close and open - he didn't say initially.

Well, I just did Jans Power supply cap mod to my 3410. Unit is now off and downloading ( I hope). The guide has been so sporadic for the last six months it has been mostly "no info". Also multiple lock ups and changing to AV1 and 2 inputs on its own (even though they are supposed to be blocked). The 5 second unplug gets rid of that, but without the guide I have to check my dishnet receiver to see whats on. I did factory inits several times last week , and only got guide data (other than channel info ) once. So, I really hope it results in an improvement.
I was going to swap the Hard drive too, but when I stuck in my 500 GB seagate it initialised okay (Its even quieter than the original 120)...and came up with 53 hours HD time. But the demo is not available...I kind of want to keep it.

'Does anyone know if ghosting the drive in a PC will retain the demo?

Update, After two days no guide info....I did a new check for guide data XXXXX14741 and the system reported 0xA (channel 10 PBS) as the second (HOST) and third line down in messages 653159845. So I locked the channel while ON channel 10. After that I rechecked and the HOST channel was blank while the third line was still 0xA. After two power offs the Guide light is on. Tomorrow we'll see...

Update: Again no joy. Did complete factory reset and started over again. Reset Zip and Download appears to be going okay (Guide light on). Current channel lineup has been set and Download started. (note : although Host channel is identified as 10 ( 0xA) using codes to search for host channel , LOCKING that channel consistently results in no guide info after the channel lineup is set (1st day download) on this unit.

Note that I have both OTA ATSC and cable channels into this unit. I have always allowed it to find all of them and then deleted those I didn't want in the guide. Most consistently it found the cable feeds for HD and put them in the guide , not listing the OTA feeds. After this last reset it marked the OTA HD channels as the priority feeds in the guide. The cable HD feeds ( for the big 5) were not even shown in the guide.

Hopefully this is good.

On a side note....the system has NOT locked UP or needed an unplug/ replug since the Cap mod. If I could just get guide info it would be perfect.

Hi - I indicated a week or two ago the continuing confusion about the "DTVPal vs TR-40" question. Now the DTVPal is actually becoming available, though so far not in quantities to meet the pent-up demand, so it's worth indicating what we MIGHT know about how it works...this is based largely on the pages in the users manual relevant to setting up the DTVPal for use with ANALOG TVGOS devices; these pages were posted at the very END of the review at http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/138485-first-look-dish-networks-dtvpal-digital-converter.html
and I do mean END, because it is below the various screenshots that were appended below the text of the review.

1. Anyway, from the manual pages, it is apparent that the DTVPal passes TVGOS data in some way to the analog device (e.g., a VCR or DVD recorder that uses TVGOS)...I say "in some way", because it is not explicit exactly what it passes, but I think it is likely to be the full set of broadcast TVGOS data that will be coming over CBS, but which would have a set of data for a "fake" zip code in each metropolitan area, specifically to enable analog TVGOS devices to continue to work. (Something I read, but that I can't find right now, indicated that the DTVPal would remain on at night to scan channels looking for the TVGOS data...)

2. Aside from setting up the DTVPal to serve the TVGOS device in terms of program data, the manual talks about setting up the TVGOS device itself to use the DTVPal as though it were a cable box that is controlled via g-link from the TVGOS device (and it says to select Scientific Atlantic as the brand of cable box).

3. The other thing it is says to do in the TVGOS device is to set up the TVGOS to receive data for the fake zip code for the particular met area (e.g., 00005 for the San Francisco area), instead of the actual zip code for one's residence...the program data then received will then be attributed to a bunch of made-up channel numbers, instead of the actual digital channels - which the analog device wouldn't know how to deal with.

Then, if you - or the analog TVGOS device - wants to tune to one of those channel numbers (whether to watch or record, I suppose), this info is sent to the DTVPal, which then interprets this as the proper digital channel and tunes to that, sending the analog result to the TVGOS device...

I THINK that for OUR purposes, i.e., for a TVGOS device that DOES know about digital channels, even though it will only GET the TVGOS data from an analog channel, it may be only paragraph 1 that is relevant, because if OUR TVGOS device is receiving the TVGOS data on the DTVPal output (an apparent analog channel), that's all we need, provided we are also getting digital channels from the antenna, which would be accomplished by a splitter/joiner arrangement.

I should add that ONE of the people reading the manual pages interpreted it to mean that the DTVPal was making up the set of data for the fake zip code mentioned above and passing ONLY that to its output, which of course wouldn't help us...I kind of doubt that's how it would work, but who knows?

Finally, in speaking with one retailer today I was told that that the "Echostar" wouldn't be available until the end of July, but when I asked her about the DTVPal, she said she would be getting some next week...so SHE at least though they were two different devices...

the saga continues...

(so I think that next week at least 2 of those who frequent this thread - Rammi and myself - will have one of these devices in hand..)

Interesting information...
Yesterday I went through ordering procedure at dtvpal.com and when I hit send, it didn't work... called number indicated, and because I wasn't a dish subscriber, no one knew if order went through or not... Absolutely Wonderful...

If anyone gets one, if you have a scope, look at line 15 of either field of the output, and tell me what you see.

Jan J,

What is a "scope"?
Point me in the right direction and I would like to read up on it more.

Thanks!

so, Jan - did you ever contact your friend again to see about the distinction between the DTVPal and the TR-40?

yeah, I saw that other people were having trouble ordering from Dish; I think Rammi ordered his from Solid Signal, which is charging considerably more...

I'm trying locally, we'll see next week if I succeed

PS I have had an oscilloscope (if that's what you mean) since I stopped doing experimental physics...but I don't know what that would have to do with finding a "line" (in the vbi data maybe???)

Jan,

You can check the status of your coupon here (https://www.dtv2009.gov/CheckStatus.aspx).

Jan, et al,

I just (successfully, I think) ordered a couple of these boxes from dtvpal. Will try to scope Line 15 when they come (7-10 business days, per the web site). This assumes, of course, that the Wash, DC CBS station, WUSA, is passing the TVGOS data. If anyone knows, I'd appreciate the confirmation.

Thanks to all for the data and links.

Hi All,

Tried to order 2 Pals thru the dtvpal site today and it kept changing the city I from Saint to St. then stated there is an error with my city name on submit. Ended up calling in to place the order. The person taking the order goes thru a sales routine, not too painful.

I was really peeved the site did not work.

- rgs001

Well, after finally connecting to just OTA and not configuring the cable last night, the guide populated with full info. So far three days, (today, tomorrow and Next Saturday (8th day).

Apparently Comcast is somehow stripping the program info from the stream, although the Channel lineup info IS coming through. :(:mad:

One thing that is kind of strange about the cable setup....whenever I have changed zip code or reset the unit (factory) the lineup always mentions the TVguide channel is on channel xx, or not available, etc. The funny thing is that that channel IS available (on ch 4) , but none of the lineup options offered ever have that channel as an option. A search for the Host channel always finds the PBS station

It would seem to me that the guide data stream would be most likely to be ON that channel, since it would be in TVGOS best interests to include it.

But then again...its on comcasts feed!

I may try that, but if it doesn't work I will sell this unit. I have never had any FW recorders so I don't have the huge investments some of you have in that tech. I tried to get a link to a PC (what was that program that (sort of)worked for that...and did move some stuff to a PC but it was way too buggy). so I beleive the FW is ok also.

Anyone want to make an offer? Original box and manual, remote included. No scratches or other on the unit...looks brand new.
Shipping will be from Portland, OR. I'd like around $200, but make an offer.

I finally got my order through DTVPAL.com
I ordered one, in case the changes don't work with 3410a...
I'll hold off on 2nd coupon for the time being....

Will be watching for other user's comments.

Oh yes, will others who ordered from DTVPAL kindly indicate the time from order to delivery when you get it, so I can have an idea when...... ??? Thanks!

I finally got my order through DTVPAL.com
I ordered one, in case the changes don't work with 3410a...
I'll hold off on 2nd coupon for the time being....

Will be watching for other user's comments.From some of your earlier posts I infer that you have or have access to a waveform monitor or at least an oscilloscope. As a start, can you tell us if the DTVPal has data on line 15 or any line other than 21, the Closed Caption line? That would be an indication that our LG DVRs might have a chance to keep getting guides.

Using TSReader Lite with an OnAir GT, I see that my local CBS digital station has a couple of PIDs identified as TVG1 and TVG2. Would these be guides for different areas or v7/v8 or digital/analog versions the way captions can be fed: one to be converted for analog receivers and one with more capabilities for digital?

I'll do a delayed sweep and count the lines from vertical. As you say, TVG will have to go on Line 15 F1/F2. 3410a will only decode from SD on line 15, and the pids your talking about are in the HD serial stream, so that doesn't help us, we can only decode from SD. What I was told will happen is that TVG will be decoded from digital, and we'll be able to use it... I was not able to get into specifics, however, which is what is bothering me.

Questions that I would have like to have asked were:

1. Let's say Digital TVG is on Channel 2-1. Does this box put TVG on ALL channels even when 2-1 is not selected? I could leave it on 2-1 if necessary.
2. Is there SD RF leaving this box on CH3 or 4, modulated with channel selected by box, and TVG from Digital TVG sender?
3. Is there SD video with TVG output if no RF? (That means I need to put it on CH3 or CH4 with a modulator)

4. Does DTVPAL box have same TVG features as the Echostar TR40?

Inquireing minds want to know!!

With regard to what data is converted from a digital signal to a converted analog, there has just been discussion of this in one of the DTVPal threads, with specific reference to testing of the RCA unit by the TVGOS people, e.g., in this post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14206289#post14206289
However, they keep referring to line 21, which may be what CC is on.

I have seen this RCA testing cited before, maybe in the Sony 250/500 thread, but can those who know more than I do interpret what they say about line 21 for the rest of us? (There are about 4 posts in a row about this...)

Thanks - Tony

I agree with Art and avnstf. Tone down your input with an attenuator. Retail price should be about the $ of a decent splitter.

You said you had a rotor. Another way to attenuate is to turn your antenna away from the signal. Turn 90 or even 180 degrees from the source towers and do a re-scan. Try that first.

Rotating away from the main signal may not solve the problem because if there are any amplifiers in the signal path the high gain will just send noise down the cable. This will result in a "No Signal" situation also. The attenuator will work even if the analog channels are full of "snow".

Bad/Good news. I have continued to fool with the 3410.

The ONLY way I get data in the guide is to use OTA antenna ONLY. Once cable is hooked up and configured I get CHANNEL information (which channel is ABC etc) but no program information on any channels in the guide.

One item is interesting. The guide DATA for the antenna input is not found on PBS (ch10), but rather FOX (ch 12). I have to assume that this is correct since there IS data downloaded for both channels and program info. If a search for Host is done on channel 10 no host is found. channel 12 is reported as host channel.

Once Cable is configured, the analog channels are not able to be selected from the antenna, just digital. When I then try to get the Host channel information it sometimes reports Channel 10 (PBS), and appears to not find the Host about 2 out of three times. Again I never get program information.

So, it appears that the guide data for program information is stripped by comcast, although they send channel lineup info on channel 10.

I have been toying with the idea of putting a VCR tuned to channel 12 on the antenna , then modulating the output to a cable channel and combining it with the cable feed. I currently do this with my BUD satellite and my pizza dish feeds. Bud is on 123, and pizza on 125. Comcast pretty much ties up everything below that. Perhaps the VBI data will come through. The idea was stimulated by the discussion about the DtvPal.

On the other hand I might just buy an HDtivo

UPDATED INFO TO CORRECT ERROR IN MY FIRST POST
Line 21 contains Closed Captioning. Field 1 contains caption 1, caption 2, text 1, text 2, and Field 2 contains caption 3, caption 4, Text 3, and text 4..

Someone must be either counting from the first broad pulse, or confusing CC with TVG. They do look simelar, but TVG has more data than CC.

TVG will Always be in line 15 of both fields (That is, according to SD transmission V7 & V8 TVG specs).

After reading the posts there, I think I'll stay here and discuss what we find here.

Edit was to change incorrect CC information.

I finally got my order through DTVPAL.com
I ordered one, in case the changes don't work with 3410a...
I'll hold off on 2nd coupon for the time being....

Will be watching for other user's comments.

Oh yes, will others who ordered from DTVPAL kindly indicate the time from order to delivery when you get it, so I can have an idea when...... ??? Thanks!

Hi Jan,

I ordered two DTVPAL via the website on Sunday June 29 (my coupons were expiring the next day), the boxes arrived today in the original box, no addition packaging. I haven't hooked them up yet to try them out.

-James

Hi - stimulated by some discussion - here and on the DTVPal threads - of TVGOS and DTVPal, as well as the possibility that the RCA and other cecb units might convert TVGOS data, I did a test on a Digital Stream 9950, discussed here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14239368#post14239368.

As seen there, I think the test of TVGOS conversion is inconclusive - because I couldn't get rid of the analog PBS signal completely - but what I did see seems to indicate the odd result that the DS9950's pass-through feature acts (at least with my setup) like it just switches a high-pass filter in and out.

That is, what I got from the 9950 without pass-through was, not only an analog version of our local CBS digital station, but ALL the actual digital stations, as well...very odd.

...And as far as TVGOS is concerned, my 3410a still either got no data (one night) or (on the next night) got partial data, apparently from the very weak analog PBS station that came through the cable from the 9950...

Got my DTVPal today. Probably won't get around to hooking it up and fooling around with it 'till late tonight, though.

OH CRAP!!!
I received my DTV Pal today, and borrowed a piece of equipment and am watching the video output right now.. IT IS NOT, NOT, Passing TVG on line 15 on DTV channels transmitting Digital TV Guide!!!

The first line it is passing is line 20 on both field 1 and 2.

It IS passing Line 21, which of course is Closed Captioning!

CRAP! There will be a phone call tomorrow!

The RF output (When Demodulated) is limited to Line 20 also. Darn! (No, I was thinking something else!) :(

There's a setting somewhere to make it work with a Guide Plus/G-Link-enabled device, which limits its normal CECB functions. Try that and see if it outputs data on Line 15.

yes, Jan - VERY curious to know what mode you have the DTVPal in...normal or TVGOS mode, which is designed to just turn the DTVPal into a front end for analog TV Guide devices, but which some of us guess means it must be passing TVGOS data, at least in this mode.

After reading your post, I got everything back out, and I just tried the TVGOS setup without doing the g-link interconnect..

Page23 of manual...

and (After Reboot) the first active line is still line 20. I'm only looking at composite video, not decoded CH3 RF.

Jan - I relayed your question to the DTVPal and TVGOS thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14249549#post14249549) which has more activity about TVGOS...

I notice above that Rammi has gotten a DTVPal...maybe he can do the test frank70 did with the Sony 250/500...that's what I would do now...if I had a DTVPal in my hands

I'm also more interested now in the claim made by somebody at Gemstar that they had tested the RCA unit and found it DID pass TVGOS...I know we can't trust 3rd hand info, but now we can get a box and TEST it!

More info......

I just learned the following, and the music from "Outer Limits" should play in the background as you read this.......

In Chicagoland, the "Proper" TVG data for boxes will not be transmitted until end of August, on CBS Digital (2-1) in Chicagoland. I was told that at that time (with this 'new' TVG Data) TVG data will suddenly "Appear" in vertical interval, possibly on the TVG option within the box (DTV PAL Page 23 as mentioned above).

I was further warned that when this happens, the TVG data MAY NOT end up on line 15, but the 3410a TVG board WILL FIND IT.....

The August date is in Chicagoland area.... Don't know about other cities.

Ok... fade out "Outer Limits" Music.....


Oh yes, I was also told that the DTVPAL box is essentially the Echostar TR40 (For our 3410a use) :)!

I'm wondering if the setup I saw on line 20 is a placeholder for the TVG Data to be inserted later? Is this spooky or what?

I feel better now, but this is a bit 'black magic' now, isn't it???

More info......

Is this spooky or what?

I feel better now, but this is a bit 'black magic' now, isn't it???

Jan,
If you get this all figured out I'm going to personally go out and find a 69 year old Indian willing to sell his motorcycle to you! :D

That would explain why I didn't get anything when I set the DTVPal up with my Panasonic E85H to download the digital TVGOS overnight.

Thanks for that info (I relayed it to the guys over in the DVD Recorders forum - I know there are a lot of Chicago people over there, too, who would be interested).

By the way, for anyone who cares - the DTVPal has pretty soft PQ. If PQ is a high priority for you, get the Channel Master or Zenith box instead. The Tivax is supposed to be good, too, though I've never seen that one for myself.

PQ= Picture Quality?

If it does what I'll need (provide TVG data to LG3410a) It will never be seen...as it's function will be purely TVG data. I was looking at output on an 8" color monitor last PM through a scope, and I thought the same thing. My plan is to boot to the TVGOS mode, and check the scope every couple days, looking for TVG Data. Once it rears it's head here, I'll holler, and then the fun starts in earnest!!!

If it does what I'll need (provide TVG data to LG3410a).I just thought I'd mention that in case anyone here was looking at it as a possible choice for a tuner for one of their TV's come analog cutoff, or were planning on using it with other recorders besides the LG or Sony's.

It does have a nice guide and manual timer setting, though, so even without the TVGOS thing it has it's merits.

Problem I had with the E85H was, it didn't have a code to change the channels on the box. I'm gonna try my Sony RDR-HX900 next. I also have a Panny EH75, but I don't really plan on using it with that - unless I ever drop my Dish SD pack.

I appreciate all you're doing and I'll be keeping close tabs on your experiments. Even if it does turn out that we don't need these for any of our digital-tunered units, it sure would be nice to keep all of our old analog TVGOS recorders working, also.

In Chicagoland, the "Proper" TVG data for boxes will not be transmitted until end of August, on CBS Digital (2-1) in Chicagoland. I was told that at that time (with this 'new' TVG Data) TVG data will suddenly "Appear" in vertical interval, possibly on the TVG option within the box (DTV PAL Page 23 as mentioned above).

I was further warned that when this happens, the TVG data MAY NOT end up on line 15, but the 3410a TVG board WILL FIND IT.....That explains what I had seen long ago and just verified with my old Telequipment scope (I was pleased to find it still works after all these years). My 3410A will pick either the CBS or PBS station on cable as the guide channel, but I never get good data from the PBS one so I locked it to CBS and have had good data ever since. But there is nothing at all on line 15. Lines 16 and 20-22 have data and lines 17-19 have test signals. The PBS station has data on 13-16, 21 and 22.

A knowledgeable tech, probably the CE, at the CBS station is active on the local forum. He said they've been transmitting digital TVGOS for several months. He didn't say anything about a special version for analog-only boxes.

I waited as long as I could but finally used my last coupon on a second Zenith. Excellent tuner, but it doesn't put out anything in the VBI except on line 21. If someone finds that the TVPal or the rumored $40 version will do what we want I'll pay full price.

In Chicagoland, the "Proper" TVG data for boxes will not be transmitted until end of August, on CBS Digital (2-1) in Chicagoland. I was told that at that time (with this 'new' TVG Data) TVG data will suddenly "Appear" in vertical interval, possibly on the TVG option within the box (DTV PAL Page 23 as mentioned above).

I was further warned that when this happens, the TVG data MAY NOT end up on line 15, but the 3410a TVG board WILL FIND IT.....

The August date is in Chicagoland area.... Don't know about other cities.

Oh yes, I was also told that the DTVPAL box is essentially the Echostar TR40 (For our 3410a use) :)!

I'm wondering if the setup I saw on line 20 is a placeholder for the TVG Data to be inserted later? Is this spooky or what?


Jan - I'm a little puzzled about the words used above..

first, when you say "proper" TVGOS data for boxes, what do you mean? What boxes - the cecbs, or our TV Guide devices? The data the DTVPal needs? or ANY TVGOS data over digital? or data specific to the 3410a? OR the data with fake zip codes that the DTVPal wants for analog only TVGOS devices?

I know...a lot of questions, but see where I'm confused? And I wonder whether your source had it straight about what the DTVPal is for, because IT seems designed primarily for analog-only TV Guide devices...

coming at it from another angle, is CBS digital ALREADY broadcasting ordinary TVGOS data in Chicagoland, as opposed to "proper" data?

I note that he DID say somethings specific, that the 3410a could find the TVGOS data on lines other than 15...so I guess he definitely knows YOU are talking about the 3410a..

can you help straighten out at least some of my confusion?

In the mean time, I'm tempted to get an RCA box (much as I hate to go to Walmart) and then use my Sony 250 (as described in that thread) to see if it IS converting TVGOS data from our San Francisco digital station to vbi.

"Proper" wasn't my wording, it was his...
Aparantly they (CBS 2-1) are transmitting Data, but it is not compatable with our (HD Converter)boxes, such as DTVPAL. Something will happen in August (turn last bit on? -- Switch to new code?--???) and when they do that, THEN the TVG data should be seen in the TVGOS mode (where menus are locked out I assume--see page 23 in DTVPAL manual)....

"And when this data does appear in VBI, it may not be on line 15" Again, that's the wording I heard....

Actually, I was being kind of short with him when the conversation started, because I had the scope information, and TVG Data simply wasn't there. He put me on hold to get some data, and when he came back he said that "In Chicago, the 'Proper' data was not yet being sent, and until it is, there will be no TVG data seen in VBI"...
(VBI=Vertical Blanking Interval).

John T.... Are you watching me tread water on this subject?? Can you shed any information on this? I'd love to hear what you know!!!

Jan, thanks for clarification...I still hope that the "Proper" data he is talking about ISN'T the special TVGOS data set (labeled by a substitute zip code) that enables an ANALOG TV Guide device to continue to use its TV Guide and to control - using non-digital numbering - what digital channel the DTVPal tunes to!

That's what the appendix beginning on page 23 described...

Onward and...some direction! Tony

I still hope that the "Proper" data he is talking about ISN'T the special TVGOS data set (labeled by a substitute zip code) that enables an ANALOG TV Guide device to continue to use its TV Guide and to control - using non-digital numbering - what digital channel the DTVPal tunes to!
Would that really be a problem? Suppose I have an OTA channel 10-3 that the data set says is on channel 0103 or 1003 or whatever a strictly analog TVGOS-enabled device can output via G-Link and the DTVPal can respond to, to set the correct channel . On the 3410A I'd just edit that in channel setup to say I get it on 10-3. The DTVPal wouldn't have to understand that; I wouldn't be using it to tune the channel.

Would that really be a problem? Suppose I have an OTA channel 10-3 that the data set says is on channel 0103 or 1003 or whatever a strictly analog TVGOS-enabled device can output via G-Link and the DTVPal can respond to, to set the correct channel . On the 3410A I'd just edit that in channel setup to say I get it on 10-3. The DTVPal wouldn't have to understand that; I wouldn't be using it to tune the channel.

right now the standard TVGOS data set, as I understand it, goes by REAL zip code, so that users like us get data appropriate for our zip code, which includes not only OTA channels, but cable, for which listings vary by area more that the OTA channels do...I assume the CBS digital stations would be broadcasting the same complete data...and am pretty confident that 3410a and Sony 250 users are going to want that data to continue...or maybe I have this wrong, being only an OTA user myself

I guess it is true that those of us who are only OTA could make do with the data that are designed for analog TV Guide devices...but actually, my guess has been that the DTVPal would pass both the normal TVGOS data and that little added (fake zip code) set for the analog TV Guide devices...

I guess we'll eventually see whether the DTVPal works with TVGOS and for whom...mine is supposed to arrive next week, but it sounds like we won't be able to check how it works for TVGOS for some time...and even that may depend on when this addition to the TVGOS broadcast is implemented (assuming I'm describing it right)

"Proper" wasn't my wording, it was his...
Aparantly they (CBS 2-1) are transmitting Data, but it is not compatable with our (HD Converter)boxes, such as DTVPAL. Something will happen in August (turn last bit on? -- Switch to new code?--???) and when they do that, THEN the TVG data should be seen in the TVGOS mode (where menus are locked out I assume--see page 23 in DTVPAL manual)....

"And when this data does appear in VBI, it may not be on line 15" Again, that's the wording I heard....

Actually, I was being kind of short with him when the conversation started, because I had the scope information, and TVG Data simply wasn't there. He put me on hold to get some data, and when he came back he said that "In Chicago, the 'Proper' data was not yet being sent, and until it is, there will be no TVG data seen in VBI"...
(VBI=Vertical Blanking Interval).

John T.... Are you watching me tread water on this subject?? Can you shed any information on this? I'd love to hear what you know!!!
So let me pose a pure hypothetical and see how it stacks up against the multiple statements from the various sources.

Is it possible there will actually be 2 forms of TVGOS data streams that will be present going forward?

Let's suppose the first version is the "digital" TVGOS that is on ATSC CBS currently that some digital-capable TVGOS recorders are using. Let's say this is a new revised version of TVGOS that has the ability to be improved and expanded over time.

Let's suppose the 2nd version is a legacy TVGOS also to be transmitted on the ATSC channel, but this version is limited to what the legacy equipment can handle. This legacy TVGOS is transmitted using the DVS706 (VBI in MPG) standard that Gemstar referred to in their FCC filings. This form of TVGOS is intended to be used by older equipment that can only get TVGOS data via analog inputs. It is expected the user will have some CECB capable of reading DVS706 data in the ATSC channel and reinserting into the analog output of the CECB box (to be eventually consumed by legacy TVGOS analog equipment)

Now *if* (and that is a big if) that was the case, then it would seem the "proper" data being mentioned is actually DVS706-based TVGOS data. That would also mean we can't really tell whether a CECB box supports TVGOS VBI reinsertion unless we can first verify that the DVS706 data is present in the stream and properly set up to be reinserted. Under these assumptions, the mere presence of "digital" TVGOS would not be enough for the box to perform TVGOS VBI reinsertion. It would need the DVS706 "VBI in MPG" data to perform that function.

Now regarding the "fake" zip codes you guys are talking about. I was under the impression the fake zip code was being used to provide a normalized channel numbering scheme (ie without subchannels) to control tuner boxes that have decided they want to go through the extra effort of being controllable (via IR) by a legacy TVGOS equipment which doesn't understand subchannels. So instead of using 5.1, the guide data would refer to 0051 and the CECB would tune to 5.1 when it encountered 0051 coming in from IR. That was why I was guessing DTVPAL goes into a complete personality change when you choose the TVGOS option, namely so it can be properly controlled by legacy TVGOS equipment's IR and channel numbering.

The only thing is that the DTVPal numbers it's channels like **-***, so unless the recorder can put out a dash, I don't fully understand how it can change channels on the Pal.

Another thing that worries me is that I get channels from three markets OTA, and my analog TVGOS shows and gets data for all of them. But with this new, digital VBI data and "fake zipcode", will any or all of these channels still be covered?

The only thing is that the DTVPal numbers it's channels like **-***, so unless the recorder can put out a dash, I don't fully understand how it can change channels on the Pal.

Another thing that worries me is that I get channels from three markets OTA, and my analog TVGOS shows and gets data for all of them. But with this new, digital VBI data and "fake zipcode", will any or all of these channels still be covered?

Rammi...I'm not sure which comment above you are responding to, but if the digital TVGOS transmissions are eventually just the digital form of the TVGOS data we get already, augmented by this data set with a fake zip code, and all this is put into vbi by a device like the DTVPal, then 1) a device like the 3410a will pick out data for the same zip code that it does now, and work normally, but 2)an ANALOG TV Guide device would be set up with the fake zip code (00003 for Chicagoland), so it picks out the data set with analog numbers substituted for the digital OTA channels.

As to which channels for which market THAT data set would include, I don't know...it seems to me that it could include channels from adjacent markets, provided the channel numbers didn't conflict...is that what the TVGOS data does now for a given real zip code? I think so, because my TV Guide can give me daata from Sacramento, 90 miles away). But it couldn't have detailed data for cable channels from all those markets, nor indeed all the zip codes for the Chicago market (for example), because they vary by zip code within the market?

As far as the question of the DTVPal dealing with non-digital channel numbers coming from the ANALOG TV Guide device:

The TV Guide device will have a set of data (according to the appendix in the DTVPal manual) that - on the TV Guide screen - shows a channel like 0051, in stead of 5.1 (which it CAN'T show), as having certain programs at certain times, and so on . If a recording is set for one of them, at the appropriate time the analog device puts out the instruction to change to that channel via the blaster, and - IN THE TVGOS MODE - the DTVPAL interprets that as 5-1 and tunes to that channel. This is the only way that the description of what happens in that mode makes sense. Agreed that the TUNER only numbers channels like 5-1, but whatever is receiving the number from the blaster in the TVGOS mode has to do the shift from 0051 to 5-1 in front of the tuner! Make sense?

I don't see any other way of interpreting what the appendix describes, because the ANALOG TV Guide device for which this approach is designed CAN'T make this translation, yet the DTVPal has to respond to the command based on this number.

I have to say, I am intrigued enough by the flat-out statement made earlier by the Gemstar guy that they had ALREADY tested the RCA cecb and found it DID successfully convert the TVGOS data that I might just go get one of the RCA boxes and test IT with my Sony 250 in the manner described in that thread. But then I would have TWO devices in my house that are claimed to handle this conversion! And I only need one...

I have to say, I am intrigued enough by the flat-out statement made earlier by the Gemstar guy that they had ALREADY tested the RCA cecb and found it DID successfully convert the TVGOS data that I might just go get one of the RCA boxes and test IT with my Sony 250 in the manner described in that thread. But then I would have TWO devices in my house that are claimed to handle this conversion! And I only need one...
Do you have any insight by what was meant by the person who told Jan about the "proper" data? Is it possible that they were talking about DVS706-based TVGOS data that I was hypothesizing about? If that was the case, does CBS (or some other channel) in the Bay Area send the "proper" data for VBI reinsertion yet? If the "proper" data isn't there (I wish these tidbits we are getting would use more detailed descriptions) then it wouldn't be useful to test right now.

That's why I needled John T, as he works there, and I was hoping he'd explain more. They are going to move from one building to another in August/Sept.
So it could be that the new code won't be ready till August, or maybe code won't be inserted/implemented until the move in Aug/Sept ??? I don't know...

I'm not sure which comment above you are responding to.... but an ANALOG TV Guide device would be set up with the fake zip code (00003 for Chicagoland), so it picks out the data set with analog numbers substituted for the digital.Yeah, I was referring to my older, analog-tunered recorders.

Hello guys,

I wasn't able to make my 3410a work for two weeks. :( I am not ready to let this unit go. I love it! There is nothing out there like this.

It no longer shows front display and has no video output. I have tried unplugging it for a couple of days. I even tried disconnecting the power plugs inside to get rid of any voltage remaining in the circuit board hoping for a sucessful restart. All it does do is light up all 5 leds on the motherboard and spins the harddrive forever until I turn the unit off.


I wonder if anyone had a problem like this! Could this be a power supply problem? What should I look for?


I had this DVR for two years which I brought off from ebay with 90 day warranty.

I'm assumeing you have it un-plugged from the wall outlet now.
If not do so, and wait 5 minutes.
Plug it in, before hitting any power button, peek inside and tell me if you see any leds glowing...
Tell me what location they are, and what color.
Also, tell me if ANYTHING is glowing on the front panel.

Next. Hit the power button, and tell me what you see on the front panel.
If it does not power up, un-plug from wall, and post results.

Also, tell me about the unit recently...
Have you encountered any abrupt reboots, or while shuttling through TVG any lockups, or any reboots that you didn't ask for?

Do you have any insight by what was meant by the person who told Jan about the "proper" data? Is it possible that they were talking about DVS706-based TVGOS data that I was hypothesizing about? If that was the case, does CBS (or some other channel) in the Bay Area send the "proper" data for VBI reinsertion yet? If the "proper" data isn't there (I wish these tidbits we are getting would use more detailed descriptions) then it wouldn't be useful to test right now.

In principle anything is possible, and I'm just guessing about what "proper" data might be...

Another thing that I haven't really taken account of is the different varieties of TVGOS data, aside from this set associated with the "fake" zip codes for the use of analog only TV Guide devices...

There must be AT LEAST 4, and probably more, generations of TV Guide devices that are now getting TVGOS data, and up to 9 or 10 if you pay attention to the different TV Guide versions (version 7 for the 3410a)...

Do these different versions each have their own set of TVGOS data being broadcast? Presumably at least the active ones up through 9 are getting their data (mainly) from the PBS analog stations through vbi. So are there 4 or more independent sets of data, or is it one set of data, and the units with different versions simply pick out the data appropriate for their version AND the channels selected for display in the TV Guide in that unit.

I think someone, perhaps Jan J, made a remark somewhere that implied that v7 and v8 are separate, but both on "line 15" of vbi currently. If so, that probably means there are at least 2 other versions (and probably more) out there, still having corresponding independent sets of data being broadcast.

If they are independent, then version 8 and 9 have no conversion worries, at least for digital units like the Sony 250, because they have digital tuners. But are there analog devices that use version 8 (or 7) data? I don't even know that...I know I have seen TVGOS analog devices for sale in stores as recently as, say, 3 years ago, which would mean them are contemporary with or even more recent than the Sony 250...

See where I'm going? I don't really know beans about the different versions and how they correspond to TVGOS data sets OR to different TV Guide devices.

Can someone who knows more tell us something about the last issue, hpw do TVGOS version correspond to broadcast data set and to different types of TV Guide devices???

Thanks - Tony

The only thing is that the DTVPal numbers it's channels like **-***, so unless the recorder can put out a dash, I don't fully understand how it can change channels on the Pal.

Rammitinski, when it is in TVGOS mode, my DTVPal interprets channel numbers without any dashes just fine. My VCR sends data over the G-link and changes the channels on the Pal. For instance, I enter 0030 on my VCR's remote, and the Pal changes to 9-3. 00191 makes it turn to 9-1, 00192 is 9-2, and 00193 is also 9-3.

I am not getting TVGOS from the Pal to the VCR but I can use the VCR to manually change channels on the Pal. BTW, this is a 1999-vintage VCR with no idea about digital channel numbering.

I'm assumeing you have it un-plugged from the wall outlet now.
If not do so, and wait 5 minutes.
Plug it in, before hitting any power button, peek inside and tell me if you see any leds glowing...
Tell me what location they are, and what color.
Also, tell me if ANYTHING is glowing on the front panel.

Next. Hit the power button, and tell me what you see on the front panel.
If it does not power up, un-plug from wall, and post results.

Also, tell me about the unit recently...
Have you encountered any abrupt reboots, or while shuttling through TVG any lockups, or any reboots that you didn't ask for?



Thanks for responding!

It was already unplugged.

When I plugged it again without pressing the power button, there were only two red leds glowing. One was located on the little circuit board that connects to the G-link socket.(LED100) The other one was on the main board on the right side. It is near the silver metal boxes which are for the cable input. (LED102)

When powered up, no light on the front panel display. It was completely dead.

I didn't have any of those problems (encountered any abrupt reboots, or while shuttling through TVG any lockups, or any reboots). I did notice that the hard drive was getting slower at starting up. The hard drive was nearly full. I thought the slowness in starting up was due to this. I didn't have this problem before when it was that full.

I don't use this unit everyday and might have missed any other problems that must have occurred before this.

Hopefully it is something simple!

Probably not...

Unless you have a power supply issue (Preventing boot), you've a boot issue.
Are you good with a Digital Voltmeter? As I'm thinking that's the next step.

I tried repairing a low level boot issue.... And after about 2 months I threw in the towel.

There was nothing on that unit's display either, and the drive spun up and locked..... But nothing...

If you're good with a DVM, I'd say you should measure all the pins on the power supply, except for the AC input of course.... Take two sets of readings, one with on/off switch in Off position (yes, power supply partially works then, too!) and another set of readings with power switch on.... Your DVM should be able to read 1/100's of a volt.
When you post, if you say 5V it won't be accurate enough. If you say it measures 5.13V then you are talking accuracy! There is a little connector going to the front panel... You would want to measure that, too.

In all honesty you want it to be a power supply.... If you have a scope measure the noise level on the 3.3 and 3.9 volt supplies, as they are very critical.

AND OH YES........ BE CAREFUL!!! SWITCHING SUPPLIES HAVE RAW AC VOLTAGE ON THEM!!! GROUND YOUR SCOPE OR DVM TO METAL CHASSIS GROUND--NOT WHAT LOOKS LIKE GROUND ON THE POWER SUPPLY, AS IT MAY VERY WELL BE RAW AC VOLTAGE, which can be "Exciting"!!!!

I PM'd Jan J with the gory details, but I verified that I've been getting reliable guide data from a station that transmits it only on line 16. That shows that it doesn't have to be on line 15.

Probably not...

Unless you have a power supply issue (Preventing boot), you've a boot issue.
Are you good with a Digital Voltmeter? As I'm thinking that's the next step.

I tried repairing a low level boot issue.... And after about 2 months I threw in the towel.

There was nothing on that unit's display either, and the drive spun up and locked..... But nothing...

If you're good with a DVM, I'd say you should measure all the pins on the power supply, except for the AC input of course.... Take two sets of readings, one with on/off switch in Off position (yes, power supply partially works then, too!) and another set of readings with power switch on.... Your DVM should be able to read 1/100's of a volt.
When you post, if you say 5V it won't be accurate enough. If you say it measures 5.13V then you are talking accuracy! There is a little connector going to the front panel... You would want to measure that, too.

In all honesty you want it to be a power supply.... If you have a scope measure the noise level on the 3.3 and 3.9 volt supplies, as they are very critical.

AND OH YES........ BE CAREFUL!!! SWITCHING SUPPLIES HAVE RAW AC VOLTAGE ON THEM!!! GROUND YOUR SCOPE OR DVM TO METAL CHASSIS GROUND--NOT WHAT LOOKS LIKE GROUND ON THE POWER SUPPLY, AS IT MAY VERY WELL BE RAW AC VOLTAGE, which can be "Exciting"!!!!



I brushed dust off from my old DMV from college.


I measured all the pins and here are they.


33 va OFF 30.95 ON 30.95
5.5 va OFF 5.45 ON 5.45
3.3 v OFF .006 ON 3.27
3.3 v OFF .0057 ON 3.269
3.3 v OFF .0057 ON 3.269
5.0 v OFF .0041 ON 5.02
5.0 v OFF .0041 ON 5.02
9.0 v OFF .0039 ON 8.98
3.8 v OFF 3.96 ON 3.845

HD voltage

5.0 v OFF .0036 ON 5.03
12.0 v OFF .0008 ON 11.93

Display voltage
FD (+) OFF 28.56 ON 30.10
FD (-) OFF 28.6 ON 30.96
29 va OFF 30.96 ON 33.82


Last three voltage readings for the ON position for display moves up and down due to pulsing voltage for the display.

It seems that the power supply is working. I don't have an oscilloscope to measure the noise levels. I have inspected the power board. There does not seem to be any dark area due to heat. All the resistors look good. No hairline cracks in them. All transistors and capacitors look ok from visual inspection.

The two big chips on the main board do feel really warm when in on position. I am assuming that is normal!

I am guessing it is a software problem or some failure on the main board.

I stand corrected... (Location of TVG). I stated 15 cause that's where I put it.
It's apparent that it can go elsewhere!

So, I wonder if different guide versions are being sent on different lines, and that's how the units know where to look for their data.

[QUOTE=mjklm;14276608]I brushed dust off from my old DMV from college.


I measured all the pins and here are they.


33 va OFF 30.95 ON 30.95 bit low, but ok
5.5 va OFF 5.45 ON 5.45 ok
3.3 v OFF .006 ON 3.27 ok This is 3.3 supply #2
3.3 v OFF .0057 ON 3.269 ok This is 3.3 supply #1
3.3 v OFF .0057 ON 3.269 ok This is 3.3 supply #1 (connected to above pin)
5.0 v OFF .0041 ON 5.02 ok
5.0 v OFF .0041 ON 5.02 ok (connected to above pin)
9.0 v OFF .0039 ON 8.98 ok
3.8 v OFF 3.96 ON 3.845 ok (Note: this is the feed to both 3.3 supplies, and feeds 3.3 supply #3 on the motherboard)

HD voltage

5.0 v OFF .0036 ON 5.03 OK
12.0 v OFF .0008 ON 11.93 OK

Display voltage
FD (+) OFF 28.56 ON 30.10 NG (I think you mean -30.10 VOLTAGE WRONG! Should be ~-20.68)
FD (-) OFF 28.6 ON 30.96 NG (I think you mean -30.96 VOLTAGE WRONG! Should be ~-24.74
29 va OFF 30.96 ON 33.82 NG (I think you mean -33.82 VOLTAGE WRONG! Should be ~-28.81)


Last QUOTE]


No!!! part of your power supply is not working right!!
I had a simelar one (exact symptoms) recently... and the symptom was no display! Yes! it would not boot!

You need to get a Power Supply Schematic.
FD (+) wants to be -20.68 or so on
FD (-) wants to be -24.74 volts or so on
29va wants to be -28.81v or so on

I'm wracking my brain on exactly where the problem was, BECAUSE IT WAS A SIMPLE FIX!! It was either a cracked trace or bad solder connection. I found it by doing a continuity test from component to component, and I think it had to do with either Transformer pin 18 & D128 or Transformer pin 17 and some other componenet. I may have mentioned it here, but I can't remember...
There's a Zener Diode that puts a 3v difference between 29va and FD(-) and that voltage difference is still there in your measurements, and since you have nearly the same wrong voltage on FD (+) and FD (-), I'm thinking your failure might be identical to the one I fixed, cause Pin 18 on the switching transformer drives FD (+) supply, and Pin 17 of the switching transformer drives the FD (-) supply, and with no load of FD+ & FD- on the 29va supply, all will float more negative...

Also... look around the base of C125, C126, C122. If you see any brown stain on the board, the cap is leaking... (Noise in 3.3 or 5v supply)
Find a post I made a while back regarding capacitor changes, part numbers from Digi-Key.


Let's continue this topic via PM

I'm wracking my brain on exactly where the problem was, BECAUSE IT WAS A SIMPLE FIX!! It was either a cracked trace or bad solder connection. I found it by doing a continuity test from component to component, and I think it had to do with either Transformer pin 18 & D128 or Transformer pin 17 and some other componenet. I may have mentioned it here, but I can't remember...


After putting time in my 3410a, finally the display glows up and the hello message came up!

Holy smokes, you are right that the problem was around pin 17 and 18 of the transformer. I did continuity test from pin 17 and along the trace. There was no resistance between pin 17 to components on that trace. I was puzzled since the soldering looked really good and couldn't find any cracks. I pressed the transformer down, pin 17 and pin 18 lifted the copper plate off the board on the bottom. I am guessing that with heating up and cooling down, the transformer expands and shrinks causing micro cracks on copper plate.


You brought it back alive! Thanks Jan!


This is a wonderful forum on LST-3410A. I hope this forum will be around for a long time!

Glad I was able to assist!

On the unit where I first saw this, I just soldered a resistor lead from transformer to component.

Here's a picture for you!

Great Picture Jan. I'll see what I can find in the vbi here in the DC area.

glad to see you posted that picture, Jan! I look forward to seeing something with converted data in it!

turns out I goofed up my DTVPal order, so it's been delayed...when I finally get it, I'm going to play around with my Sony 250 to see what its diagnostics see on the currrent PBS analog station , the CBS digital channel,and the CONVERTED CBS digital channel!

If I could get my hands on an RCA unit, I'd do the same thing with it...

avnstf:
The only problem I've seen since I applied the lock is that the box may freeze if I allow a playback to stop on its own rather than manually stopping it, a problem it's had for a couple of years now.

I've always observed this characteristic on the 3410a regrdless of channel lock/no lock (had this problem from the first time I allowed a recorded program to play out). My solution is to either stop the program (before credits) or hit the jump to end button.

Sincerely,
Leg One

I've always observed this characteristic on the 3410a regrdless of channel lock/no lock (had this problem from the first time I allowed a recorded program to play out). My solution is to either stop the program (before credits) or hit the jump to end button.

Sincerely,
Leg One

Us too, on all 3. V1.17 in each

I just thought I'd mention that in case anyone here was looking at it as a possible choice for a tuner...

When the US Gov. provided us (yea you too) with the DTV coupon I did cheer (this was a year ago). Then I read the specifications for the DTV box and my heart sunk. The DTV box would be limited to 480i and stereo out, no digital sound output. There went my opportunity to update my 46" HD-Ready tv for free. Guess I'm just another victim of moderization and obsolescence (NTSC to ATSC).

Sincerely,
Martin

When the US Gov. provided us (yea you too) with the DTV coupon I did cheer (this was a year ago). Then I read the specifications for the DTV box and my heart sunk. The DTV box would be limited to 480i and stereo out, no digital sound output. There went my opportunity to update my 46" HD-Ready tv for free. Guess I'm just another victim of moderization and obsolescence (NTSC to ATSC).

Sincerely,
Martin

(1) I sure didn't. Paying out millions of dollars in tax money just so people can watch TV? Alex Hamilton is spinning in his grave.

(2) I thought you had a 3410a?

(2) I thought you had a 3410a?

I do have a 3410a, its in our home theater on our projector (what a source it is in HD :)).

Sincerely,
Leg One

Chicagoland
Turned on DTVPal today (Boots in TVG mode)
Still only line 21 Closed captioning... HOWEVER.....
Last time I looked at VBI, Line 20 had setup, Today
it is blanked... I betcha that's where they will put TVG....

Entered 7/21/08
Chicagoland
Subtle change has been seen on line 20 of DTVPAL ouput (in TVG mode)

Line 20 now blanked a bit different than last post indicated.
I'm seeing a bit of setup, then blanking on "Front Porch" of line 20,
then at "Back Porch" of line 20 line is un-blanked for an instant.
We're talking the lenght of the setup seen on front and back porches is much less than a microsecond, with the greater part being seen at the back porch, and lesser part on the front porch...
NO DOUBT ABOUT IT..... Something is being blanked on line 20!!!!

Have lost all guide information from Comcast Annapolis on 2 3410's. I was locked on to the station sending the info. but when I lost it for several weeks, I factory reset the 2. No listings 2 days out.

Hi Art,

I am surprised that COMCAST was ever passing the TVGOS data. COMCAST MOCO apparently strips it out completely. I have tried the cable versions of all of the stations that might carry it and all are no-go. I seem to remember that JJ said COMCAST was also stripping it out in his area. Perhaps that is what has happened to you on the Annapolis stations.

Wish we could convince them to leave it alone.

These 2 and even a third have recived TVGOS for 4 years successfully from Comcast. One of my 2 active units got the Comcast data last night. Perfect. The other got nothing not even the lineup data. No Green screen. Tonight I reset that one to see if it would pick up OTA

(1) I sure didn't. Paying out millions of dollars in tax money just so people can watch TV? Alex Hamilton is spinning in his grave.


My understanding is that the government is getting MUCH MUCH more from resale of the frequencies that are freed up than they are paying out....

The Comcast boxes are stripping TVG (all vertical interval signals to line 21, CC, that's why I'm unable to use "Cable + Box" on 3410a), but Comcast is passing CH7, 11, 32's BVI on analog...

Called friend at CBS (TVG on 2-1 in Chicago). Their planned move (Studios moving across town here in Chicago) has nothing to do with the mentioned "Change in TVG Data-- for Proper-- Data" that TVG folks mentioned to me a couple weeks ago... He there (as I do here) has little to do with the TVG origionation box, it is all done by remote connection.

That knocks out one more variable

In the DTVPal technical/TVGOS thread, Francie Bauer, manager of communications at Dish/Echostar, is quoted extensively (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14351734#post14351734) as explaining that - when they get things straightened out - the DTVPal in its normal mode will pick up its clock time (e.g., for EPG and timer purposes) by searching for the local digital station that is broadcasting the TVGOS data and using that station's clock time.

Considering the DTVPal's design with a special (TVGOS) mode to serve analog recorders that use TV Guide, I thought it interesting that, even in its normal mode, the DTVPal will search for a digital station with the TVGOS data to set its clock (presumably by the station's PSIP time) ...(http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14353314#post14353314)

My understanding is that the government is getting MUCH MUCH more from resale of the frequencies that are freed up than they are paying out....

Be that as it may, I don't believe the constitutional amendment declaring an inalienable right to free TV ever got the required 2/3 majority.

I hope when they phase out DVDs the government'll give me a coupon for a Blu Ray player ....

Because of interest in the DTVPal technical/TVGOS thread in this question, I started a post there that lists known cases of digital stations carrying TVGOS data (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14362176#post14362176).

There are now 7 in this list, based on demonstration using the Sony DHG or on statement by a station engineer...

Jan J - I'm curious...I assume that your TVGOS contact(s) can confirm that the Chicago station is carrying data, but can they tell you FOR WHAT VERSIONS of the TV Guide they are broadcasting data???

Thanks - Tony

This adds very little to our knowledge of TVGOS, but I discovered an apparently unpublished support page one can still use to create an account. The 'answers tab' seems to be old by about a year. But it does have a 'questions tab' for those who might wish to open a new case or make contact? Here is the url: http://tvgos.custhelp.com

Again, no new knowledge. Nothing of digital transition or dtv converter boxes. Very stale stuff indeed.

This adds very little to our knowledge of TVGOS, but I discovered an apparently unpublished support page one can still use to create an account. The 'answers tab' seems to be old by about a year. But it does have a 'questions tab' for those who might wish to open a new case or make contact? Here is the url: http://tvgos.custhelp.com

Again, no new knowledge. Nothing of digital transition or dtv converter boxes. Very stale stuff indeed.
thanks, in any case, for posting this...I hadn't seen this support page.

As an experiment, I sent them 2 questions- one about whether digital stations will be transmitting the v7 data and whether they recommended any particular cecb for conversion, and the other about whether the Sony 250 would switch over to using digital broadcasts without any upgrade, aside from what downloads from the stations now broadcasting the v8 data.

thanks, in any case, for posting this...I hadn't seen this support page.

As an experiment, I sent them 2 questions- one about whether digital stations will be transmitting the v7 data and whether they recommended any particular cecb for conversion, and the other about whether the Sony 250 would switch over to using digital broadcasts without any upgrade, aside from what downloads from the stations now broadcasting the v8 data.

avnstf,
I'll give you one guess for the CECB they recommend, see this page, near the bottom:
http://www.tvgos.com/support/

avnstf,
I'll give you one guess for the CECB they recommend, see this page, near the bottom:
http://www.tvgos.com/support/
you know, I think I saw that a month or 2 ago, before the DTVPal was available, which made it a joke

Ironically, I'm getting my DTVPal delivered tomorrow by UPS...but so far, no one's been able to get one to function in the TVGOS mode!

So my question to them about whether v7 data is being transmitted digitally still has merit!

Wife was asking me why I had a scope in the living room by TV. I explained how I'm waiting for TVG out of the DTVPAL, Yada, Yada, Yada...... and then I explained how the little white light on the 3410a was an indication of when TVG data was being received.....
So she thinks a minute, and says.... "When you saw no data, was there data being received on the 3410a?

Bless her!!! I'm waiting for one of the 3410a's to show TVG Data, and then I'll examine the DTVPAL and see....... Yada, Yada, Yada.... I just know it... I'm gong to get eye strain!!

EDIT!!! It was a good idea she had, but unfortunately, it didn't work... Checking DTVPAL output when 3410a gets data did not result in anything, no matter where I looked... OK, back to waiting for 'Sometime in August' End of Edit

Should I be receiving guide data if all my analog channels are off?
I am, and they are!
My Host Channel is listed as 0x1D, 29, a local My Network affiliate.
Who ever heard of a My Network affiliate providing TVGOS data?
I am in Minneapolis, where the local CBS is supposedly one of the few known stations to be broadcasting the digital version of TVGOS.
When I go into the 753... menu, I don't see packets increasing when tuned to the CBS digital channel, but I do see packets increasing when tuned to the analog My Network channel.
Am I receiving guide data digitally since I have all my analog's off?
Hmmm...

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, there must be someone in the Chicago area who can capture a sample of the CBS digital station onto a Windows computer and run TSReader Lite (free from www.coolstf.com/tsreader/) on it to see what TVG streams they're sending out and at what bitrates. Some tuners can be operated directly by TSRL, such as those that use BDA drivers, so it's not necessary to save a sample.

In Albany NY the CBS station is sending two streams labeled TVG1 and TVG2. When I checked, TVG1 had a bitrate of 26.66 Kbps, while TVG2's was 1.47 Kbps. I suspect TVG2 carries an analog version of TVGOS. It would have to have a low bitrate to match what a VBI line can handle. If Chicago's station doesn't have a TVG stream with that low bitrate, it could explain why Jan isn't getting anything on his DTVPal.

anyhoo What line is the TVG information coming out of the converter?
Which converter?

anyhoo What line is the TVG information coming out of the converter?
Which converter?
No converter!
All my analog channels are off, and I have been receiving guide data for two days now!
Hmmm...

No converter!
All my analog channels are off, and I have been receiving guide data for two days now!
Hmmm...If your unit is showing an analog host channel, then it's getting it's data from that analog host channel.

No converter!
All my analog channels are off, and I have been receiving guide data for two days now!
Hmmm...

I tried to play around like that, too, but I found that - even if all my analog stations were turned off - my 3410a still got data from and identified my usual station (analog PBS) as the host channel...(Actually, I was testing to see whether a DS9950 converter box, set on CBS digital, with the converted output on channel 3 had TVGOS data...so I had analog channel 3 on, and it was in these circumstances that my unit still found data from analog channel 9 - PBS, though it was turned off, BOTH in the channel setup AND in the TV Guide setup)

so I'm a bit skeptical about where you're getting your data, since you indicated above that your host channel was still identified as analog AND, as I say, my unit persists in getting the data from PBS, if it's getting any data at all

(I say the latter, because LATELY I don't get data on most days...I think something has been wrong with the PBS TVGOS broadcast)

and you DO realize that you're in the 3410a thread, not the Sony 250? (given that it's the Sony that has the capability of getting data from a digital station...)

If your unit is showing an analog host channel, then it's getting it's data from that analog host channel.
Yes, it is showing 0x1D, local 29, a My Network affiliate.
But I thought for sure then that the analog channel had to be on in the channel setup menu in order to receive listings?!
29-0 is off both in channel setup and in TVGOS setup.
anyhoo, has anyone ever heard of a My Network affiliate sending TVGOS listings?

and you DO realize that you're in the 3410a thread, not the Sony 250? (given that it's the Sony that has the capability of getting data from a digital station...)

Yep, I know, I want to be in the 3410a thread.
I thought that I might have been onto something that hasn't been reported before for our V7 units. :)
anyhoo, what happened recently was that I started losing listings.
So I checked my Host Ch via 753..., and it was listed as 0x1D.
I then turned 29-0 on in the channel setup menu, but left my local PBS and ABC analog's on for a day or two, just in case. Voila, I started getting listings again. So that seems to point to the fact that the analog channel has to be on in order to receive listings. Then I turned off PBS and ABC, and I still received listings. So I decided to get greedy and I turned off 29-0, my last analog channel.
And here I am today, still receiving listings, with no analog channel.
Hmmm...

What firmware versions is loaded in your 3410a?
I'm interested in them all.

But I thought for sure then that the analog channel had to be on in the channel setup menu in order to receive listings?!Apparently not. Maybe something in an update they sent changed that.

It's never had to be on with the Sony DVR's.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, there must be someone in the Chicago area who can capture a sample of the CBS digital station onto a Windows computer and run TSReader Lite (free from www.coolstf.com/tsreader/) on it to see what TVG streams they're sending out and at what bitrates. Some tuners can be operated directly by TSRL, such as those that use BDA drivers, so it's not necessary to save a sample.

In Albany NY the CBS station is sending two streams labeled TVG1 and TVG2. When I checked, TVG1 had a bitrate of 26.66 Kbps, while TVG2's was 1.47 Kbps. I suspect TVG2 carries an analog version of TVGOS. It would have to have a low bitrate to match what a VBI line can handle. If Chicago's station doesn't have a TVG stream with that low bitrate, it could explain why Jan isn't getting anything on his DTVPal.

Hi...the data on the bit rate is interesting, though I don't know enough about the structure of the TVGOS data of different versions and how they're transmitted to comment on your interpretation.

As for getting someone around Chicago (or any other area) to do what you've done, I wanted to suggest that this question be posed in a thread that has to do with use of PCs for HDTV...you might be more familiar with those than most of us and be able to judge whether we could get others to do us the favor of checking for TVG data streams on CBS stations in other areas...what do you think?

What firmware versions is loaded in your 3410a?
I'm interested in them all.

1.15, is that what you are looking for?
I am not sure about versionS

Yes, it is showing 0x1D, local 29, a My Network affiliate.
But I thought for sure then that the analog channel had to be on in the channel setup menu in order to receive listings?!
29-0 is off both in channel setup and in TVGOS setup.
anyhoo, has anyone ever heard of a My Network affiliate sending TVGOS listings?

You are sure 0x1D is Host Chan. Not VBI Chan.? I ask because I've made that mistake before. VBI Chan will always be whatever the currently tuned channel is (displayed in the top left pane). If the currently tuned channel is also the host channel, then yes you will see incrementing slicing data on page 2.

I too had been under the impression that at minimum the host channel must be turned on. But I've never tried turning it off. Can't say I've ever heard of a non PBS station providing analog guide data, but who knows now?

anyhoo,

where do you have your analog channels turned off? In the 3410a's Channel Edit or the TVGOS lineup edit or both?

What firmware versions is loaded in your 3410a?
I'm interested in them all.

Jan J,
Now that I'm at home, I think I see what you mean.
Here it is:
S/W : MP1.15
H/W : 10.4
DB : 4.15
Guide : 7.1.20

Date :
02:51PM Apr.06,2004

As for getting someone around Chicago (or any other area) to do what you've done, I wanted to suggest that this question be posed in a thread that has to do with use of PCs for HDTV...you might be more familiar with those than most of us and be able to judge whether we could get others to do us the favor of checking for TVG data streams on CBS stations in other areas...what do you think?Perhaps. I don't read the threads on using HD tuners with computers (too many of them) except for the specific tuners I have: MyHD cards and the AutumnWave line of USB tuners. I could also browse the Chicago thread(s) looking for someone talking about HTPCs.

Although I'd like feedback from any area, I'm particularly interested in the situation in Chicago, because that's where Jan J is trying to get his DTVPal to output TVGOS, he's familiar with the technical side of analog TV signals and has the hardware to examine them, but he's had no success. He suggested that perhaps his CBS digital station wasn't yet broadcasting the "analog" stream, and I'd like to nail that down if possible. I was hoping that someone with a 3410A in the Chicago area would also have a computer-based HD tuner.

You are sure 0x1D is Host Chan. Not VBI Chan.? I ask because I've made that mistake before. VBI Chan will always be whatever the currently tuned channel is (displayed in the top left pane). If the currently tuned channel is also the host channel, then yes you will see incrementing slicing data on page 2.

I too had been under the impression that at minimum the host channel must be turned on. But I've never tried turning it off. Can't say I've ever heard of a non PBS station providing analog guide data, but who knows now?

Yep, Host Chan is 0x1D, 29, and I have this analog channel OFF in the Ch. Edit screen.
And you can check out Spiff's DHG-HDD page, particularly
http://www.spiffspace.com/sonydvr.html#Section215
which lists who hosts TVGOS, definitely some ABC's, Fox's, CBS' and NBC's, but no MyNet's (UPN's?).

anyhoo,

where do you have your analog channels turned off? In the 3410a's Channel Edit or the TVGOS lineup edit or both?

Both!
I've never kept my TVGOS analog host channel on in the Guide, never had a problem.
But I've always kept the analog station on, until now :)

Both!
I've never kept my TVGOS analog host channel on in the Guide, never had a problem.
But I've always kept the analog station on, until now :)

as I noted above, my 3410a picked up TVGOS data from the local PBS analog station even though I had turned it off in both places, too

Can't say I've ever heard of a non PBS station providing analog guide data, but who knows now?In all my days, between V7, V8 & V9, I've gotten it here (Chicago) from 2 different PBS channels, ABC, FOX and CBS.

Can't say I've ever heard of a non PBS station providing analog guide data, but who knows now?

In the Boston area, guide data has always been carried by the local analog FOX affiliate and never by any of the local PBS stations.

In Chicago, Fox (WFLD 32-0) and ABC (WLS 7-0) transmit V7 TVG. PBS (WTTW 11-0) transmits V8 TVG. And CBS (WBBM 2-1) transmits TVG V? on 2-1 digital

In Chicago, Fox (WFLD 32-0) and ABC (WLS 7-0) transmit V7 TVG. PBS (WTTW 11-0) transmits V8 TVG. And CBS (WBBM 2-1) transmits TVG V? on 2-1 digital
Jan - if you add a note to your post that you know WBBM transmits TVGOS data based on info from someone at the station, I can add this to my list of digital stations transmitting the TVGOS data! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14362176#post14362176)
Tony

Tony, WBBM has been transmitting TVGOS on 2-1 for many months now...
I've been told that it is being controlled via an internet connection.

I have not decoded anything with my DTVPAL yet.... I'm waiting...

I finally got my DTVpal 2 days ago, and thought I would mention a couple of things

I checked the output of the Pal - when set to convert our local CBS station KPIX 5.1 - using the "G* test available on the Sony 250. This test DOES show "vbi packets" from analog PBS 9, and also from the direct 5.1 broadcast (in which case it is thought the test is specifically for TVGOS packets). When I checked the converted output from the DTVPal (coming via channel 3), the G test showed NO vbi packets. Aside from the negative test itself, I found this very puzzling, because - when I set my Sony to see closed captions on the channel 3 output - I DID see closed captions. Since these come via vbi on analog channels, the output clearly IS carrying SOME vbi data. So it isn't clear exactly what this test means for this converted output.

Despite this failure (and Jan's seeing no TVGOS data on the converted output on this scope), I set up my 3410a with just the output of the DTVPal as a source. I again tested to make sure the closed caption data was being seen by the 3410a from the converter AND that the analog channel 9 was barely leaking through (white screen mostly, occasional vague black image visible, garble for sound) and that no CC data was coming through on that channel. I turned it off and left it overnight. The next day I found that there was no new TV Guide data AND the host channel in the TV Guide service menu showed 0, whereas it normally showed 9. So the test, like others was a failure. (By the way, as in the case when I tested a different converter box this way, virtually all the digital channels came through the box clearly...It's like these boxes act like a high-pass filter even when they're not set for analog pass-through.)

(By the way, on the previous night I tested my Sony's ability to get the v8 data from CBS 5.1, using the technique previously seen there of doing the G test on the channel and then not touching the unit, leaving it on overnight (having previously disabled the auto-shutoff). My machinations had previously cleared the entire 8 days of guide listings inadvertently, and the next morning, I turned on the TV, pushed the guide button on the Sony (which of course was still on) and found I had gotten 8 DAYS OF LISTINGS overnight (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14394815#post14394815)
(cf. earlier posts there for how my testing had led to no listing for the full 8 days, e.g.,http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14388833#post14388833)

By the way: updated list of digital stations carrying TVGOS data http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14362176#post14362176

How weird is this?
For some reason, my LG has decided I want to see listings for EWTN, Eternal Worship Television Network.
I just noticed this channel appeared at the bottom of my listings, with listings for Wed, Thur, Fri and next Wednesday.
Maybe someone is trying to tell us something ;)
I'm afraid to turn this listing off now :eek:

This adds very little to our knowledge of TVGOS, but I discovered an apparently unpublished support page one can still use to create an account. The 'answers tab' seems to be old by about a year. But it does have a 'questions tab' for those who might wish to open a new case or make contact? Here is the url: http://tvgos.custhelp.com


As mentioned earlier, I asked a couple of questions on this site, so here is the interaction:

1. Will version 7 data be included in the TVGOS data now starting to be broadcast over CBS digital stations? Can you recommend a particular digital-to-analog converter unit that will convert the data for use in my 3410a?

2. I understand that the Sony DHG 250 CAN receive the version 8 TVGOS data from digital broadcasts. Will this occur without an upgrade of my unit, aside from the TV Guide setup data downloaded from the station broadcasting the TVGOS data?

Answer (to both) from Jay Navarro: To answer your questions, first we have not officially switched to our digital CBS feed, when we do, we will be trying to pass data to all of our older version of the guide. Currently the only converter box that has been approved to pass our data is the EchoStar TR40. Lastly we do not upgrade units (we will work with manufactures to provide upgrades of our product in there units per there request) for any upgrade information you would need to speak to the manufacturer.

I responded with a further question:

3. Hi - the response ... states that the only converter box now approved to pass TVGOS data is the EchoStar TR40. By this do you mean what is now called the DTVPal? Or, if you mean a box that is to become available later, do you know when it will be available?

Answer from Nick Ferrelli: The DTV Pal is the say as the EchoStar TR-40. You can order it at http://www.dtvpal.com and it should be available now.
Please let us know if you have any more questions.

I liked 2 things about these answers (though who can guess their reliability)...the explicit statement that they will "try" to pass data for all older guide versions and the statement that the DTVPal/TR-40 have been "approved to pass our data." Otherwise I wonder if they fully understood my questions, especially the one about the Sony with v8, which I stated perhaps a little too succinctly to have complete clarity.

Nick was my CSR when I had an open case. We spoke by phone and used email extensively. I found him to be quite knowledgeable and helpful. He is apple pie I assure you.

I would like to think that his statement puts the DTVPal/TR-40 question to rest. We'll see. I don't have one, but I noticed in the manual on page 17 the DTVPal lists Model ID as TR-40. :D

Chicagoland.
Did my weekly examination of the DTVPAL in TVG mode..
Looks like they changed the setup blanking on line 20. Still blanked, but the timing of the blanking of line 20 changed a bit...

I hear when it 'happens' we'll see 4 lines of TVG code, but nothing to do with Line 20.....

14-17 is best bet

I locked the 3 DVR's to CH7 here in Chicagoland about 3-5 months ago...
Had first lockup since then. My DVR1 would not go to TVG, and on power dn, up, reported timed recording on video input 1 or 2.

Pulled power, waited 10 seconds, powered up. and delected all scheduled recordings, then put them back in again.

Since I locked all 3 units on the same day, it will be interesting to see if the other 2 DVR's do same thing shortly. All 3 are on a UPS.

This is the first lockup in about 3-5 months.....

Jan,

I wonder: My unit locked up yesterday for the first time since I reported the lock code. Went all crazy. Got the invalid channel; lock up and do nothing; pull power and come back with partial guide data; etc. Did reset and another lock. Waiting now to see if I get data back.

I wonder if we all got some messed up data which caused it. Will be interesting to see if others have similar failures during the next week.

BTW: I thought you could not set the clock with a recording scheduled. It just let me do it for the second time.

After reading your post.... I had my wife check all three units. I "locked" all 3 on the same day months ago... All are locked to same channel...
Wife reports all 3 fine today, so only 1 of 3 acted up.... But we'll be monitoring...
Jan

Fred...

Last night, DVR2 decided to have me re-select the cable list. After doing so, and re-directing the channels to where I wanted them, I checked DVR1 (one that acted up last week) and DVR3. Nothing unusual....
Checked this morning and all are OK.

Wierd that 3 units with same firmware, selected for the same locked channel on the same day, months later would do 3 different things....

EDIT--- And all 3 are on same UPS, off same antenna & Cable feeds...

Wierd, eh?

Hi JaN,

Certainly is weird. I assume all 3 of yours are locked to the same TVGOS source. I have only one source, at least until the CBS fix for digital. It is my PBS local over the air analog.

Thought it might be a corrupt data issue, but according to your data, it is probably not.

Thanks for the info,

Jan,

I have been running 3 units for years and get different results from each of them. Either the algorithms are so poor that they are affected by small differences in signal strength or, the layout of these units is so different that they react differently. Currently I get no TVGOS data on any 3410. The motorola 3416's both work perfectly.

Nothing new on the TR-40 TVG Data situation....
Nor 8/30/08

Jan,

Do you think the Chicago market is in any way different with respect to TVGOS than other major metropolitan markets? In other words, do you suspect that "proper" TVGOS data is being broadcast in other markets now? I have to wonder about Wilmington, NC. They make their transition next week. Any 3410a owners from Wilmington on board?

I've got listings with my LG in the NYC market DLing it the old fashioned way. So I can confirm that it's still being broadcast here.

Jan,

Do you think the Chicago market is in any way different with respect to TVGOS than other major metropolitan markets? In other words, do you suspect that "proper" TVGOS data is being broadcast in other markets now?Not one single person anywhere so far has gotten their DTVPal to convert any kind of digital data, "proper" or otherwise, to a form usable by any analog TVGOS recorder, so you can make of that what you will.

Not one single person anywhere so far has gotten their DTVPal to convert any kind of digital data, "proper" or otherwise, to a form usable by any analog TVGOS recorder, so you can make of that what you will.
I think Jan mentioned at one point in August that the Gemstar people were still working on the code for this data - presumably until that's finished NO market will have use of it...

Do you think the Chicago market is in any way different with respect to TVGOS than other major metropolitan markets? In other words, do you suspect that "proper" TVGOS data is being broadcast in other markets now? I have to wonder about Wilmington, NC. They make their transition next week. Any 3410a owners from Wilmington on board?There is definitely no TVGOS VBI data present yet in Philadelphia (KYW-DT 3.1, 131 on the DTVPal/TR-40 in TVGOS mode). If I were in a pilot transition city, I'd give Gemstar a call and ask them when they're going to get on the ball!!! I'm sure Echostar Technologies didn't include those 8 pages (out of 37) in their manual just for fun; the implication is "do this and it will work", not "do this and it will work starting on 17 Feb 2009".

My DVR1 would not go to TVG, and on power dn, up, reported timed recording on video input 1 or 2...delected all scheduled recordings, then put them back in again.

This is the first lockup in about 3-5 months.....

Hi Jan,
When the Olympics started I anticipated trouble free unattended recording in HD and playback at a later time in HD. I have had very few problems with the 3410a. After the opening ceremonies I started scolling through the Guide and it was not re-populating (No Listing). I had the dreaded AV1/AV2 fault (both are shut off) :confused:.
Needless to say at that time after plug-unplug I could not get the Guide to re-populate so no HD recording on the 3410a. Went to on-line viewing for things of interest.
Yesterday (9/06/08) we had a power hick-up and I checked it out again (resetting the clock manually). This morning half a weeks Guide is there (this does take time):).
Hey Jan, are there any CMOS batteries in these models? When expended what is lost?

Is there any hope for the 3410a as we progress to the Digital only era (Analog shut-off)? Will the Guide problems only become more frequent (until)? There were some notes above about Digital Guide data but I don't understand, Is that going to work with the 3410a? My machine is operating like this:
S/W : MP1.15
H/W : 10.4
DB : 4.15
Guide : 7.1.20

Sincerely,
Leg One
P.S. I'm in NW Chicago suburbs

I live in Skokie, North of you.

I've found if I lock the TVG to the station of my choice (I use Channel 7)
it's far less problamatical..... I've locked my 3 LG's to 7 months ago, and only one has burped since.. But burped same way as you...

In Annapolis, MD Comcast and OTA, the guide rarely works now. It is the 3410A's because I have 2 Mot 3416's on the same line that populate perfectly

The plan from the Echostar folks (makers of DTVPAL, AKA: Echostar TR40) is to boot the TR40 into a 2nd mode, where it just downconverts the TVGOS Host channel 24/7/365. In the VBI (Vertical Blanking Interval--- The black bar you see when vertical unlocks) there will be 8 versions of TVGOS being placed in the Vertical Blanking Interval.

The output of the TR40 can be either channel 3 or channel 4.

My paticular plan is to notch out channel 3 on my cable feed, and insert this channel 3 in it's place (I'm already notching out Channel 4 and replacing it with a local channel 4 of my own making, so I'll be using channel 3 for my post February 2009 TVG useage.

Anyway, that's my plan....

HOWEVER...... As of this time, the software needed by the TR40 is running behind schedule. Until the TVG on VBI is output from the TR40, there is no reason to hook the TR40 to any LG 3410a.

How do I know it's not being sent? Because I have an Oscilliscope hooked to the video output of the TR40, and every other day or so.... (He pauses typing while he turns it on to check..... Nope, still not working yet... Only seeing Closed Captioning on line 21. When it is being sent, I'm expecting to see other Vertical Blanking lines (Maybe up to 4 more lines of data) show a signal somewhat simelar to Closed Captioning, except that it will be TVG.)
Once or twice before I posted a picture of what TVG would look like...

Anyway, there is NO REASON to hook a TR40 up to a LG3410a and try and use the TR40 for TVG data, UNTIL it starts outputting TVG on the VBI area.... NO REASON... (Because if you do, you'll just frustrate yourself!)

Also, I see no reason (Since the encoder boxes at the Station are Un-manned, to call the folks at the TV Station, as they are totally in the dark as to what's going on in the encoder box.) to tie up a 3410a until I see that TVG Data on a scope, for a day or so.... AT THIS POINT THE SOFTWARE IS NOT TURNING ON THE VBI AREA OTHER THAN LINE 21 ON BOTH FIELDS (Closed Captioning), AND AN OCCASIONAL BLANKING CHANGE ON LINE 20 ON BOTH FIELDS.

Now once I DO Start seeing TVG Data, I'll post that I'm seeing it in Chicagoland, and I will feed that CH3 RF feed to one of my 3 LG3410a DVRs.
This way, the other 2 will be getting data from Channel 7 off cable, and the 3rd 3410a will be getting it from the TR40. After I 'force' the experimental 3410a (#3) to the TR40, I'll post that, and then daily compare the TVG on both types (I have all 3 3410a's connected to OTA and Cable, with 3410a set for Cable Yes, Box No on the cable input, and I re-direct TVG HDTV Channels from cable numbers to OTA numbers so as to record Local HDTV channels off the OTA feed on antenna 1 of the 3410a.

Once this works (Obviously during the first part of this 'test' I will not be able to record analog cable channels on the #3 Test 3410a, because it's getting a CH3 feed ONLY from the TR40), then I'll move on to the next part of the test... There is a method to my madness.

While this is being tested, I'll see if I can cleanly install a "CH3 Insterter" into the cable feed that feeds the other two 3410a DVR's (And SVideo VHS, and Cable intput to Mits DLP, and feeds to rest of house)... Once I verify that I can block out Channel 3 from the cable feed without damaging Channel 2 or channel 4, 5 and above (Remember, I'm already inserting a local channel 4 feed). Once I get that done cleanly.... I'll sit back and take a breather.....

In the meantime, remember, I'm still testing the TR40's CH3 output into DVR #3's cable feed, as the TVG test... Once I'm comfortable that TVG is working correctly with DVR3 (By comparing the TVG Data against our 3410a #1 and #2)... When I'm comfortable with that....
I'll move the CH3 feed from the TR40 from 3410a #3 to the channel 3 inserter Ch 3 input and adjust the RF output such that CH2, CH3, CH4, and CH5 (For anyone keeping track, that's CH2 from Cable, CH3 from TR40, CH4 from the Cablebox modulated onto CH4, and CH5 and above from Cable.), and re-connect the "Cable +3, +4" feed back to 3410a #3..
Again, 3410a #1 and #2 are still 'Locked' to Cable CH7, and 3410a #3 is locked to Ch3 (TR40, now mixed into 'cable +3, +4' feed).. Let some time go by, and again verify that no-body is overloading anyone else.... and that TVG on DVR#3 is working fine..... THEN I'll re-lock 3410a #1 and #2 to CH3 (TR40, now mixed into 'cable +3, +4 feed).

Oh, by the way.... None of the changes has ANY EFFECT on the Cablebox "On Demand".... That still works perfectly.... The Cable feed to the cablebox is far 'upstream' of all my notching and inserting...

So, No, I don't have a plan on extending the life of the LG 3410a's that we own!!!! :D! :D!

...and I re-direct HDTV Channels from cable numbers to OTA numbers so as to record Local HDTV channels off the OTA feed on antenna 1 of the 3410a.You'll have to do this with the guide delivered by Gemstar via the TR-40 too, since it will initially be downloaded with those 100+10C+S channel numbers meant to be sent to the TR-40 via G-Link.

That is, if it really all works (i.e. "running behind schedule" doesn't turn into "gave up"!)

Jan, I bow to your planning. I had thought about the notch-and-insert trick, and I think I will be fortunate since our locals (4, 5, 7, and 9) are moved to 24, 25, 27, and 29, leaving 3 & 4 available to play with.

If the TR-40 is outputting on channel 3, will it have a (dummy) picture with the VBI appropriately inserted? If not, it may cause havoc with the DVR. For example, I have found that a lot of my problems were caused by ghosting on the local TVGOS host channel. Oh well, we wait to see...

I'm not holding my breath for the new software though.

If the TR-40 is outputting on channel 3, will it have a (dummy) picture with the VBI appropriately inserted? If not, it may cause havoc with the DVR. For example, I have found that a lot of my problems were caused by ghosting on the local TVGOS host channel.The TR-40 outputs the actual picture from the CBS digital channel you've tuned it to; no chance of ghosting since the picture has been reconstructed from the digital data, as will (hopefully someday) the TVGOS VBI. The CC VBI is already present and can be decoded from the channel 3/4 output with no problem.

What frank70 said! :)! I'll bet it works, once software is fixed!!

What frank70 said! :)! I'll bet it works, once software is fixed!!

so, Jan... do you think that, for each guide version, the station will only broadcast a set of data associated with the fake zip code specified for each metro region in the DTVPal's appendix? Or do you think it will also have the full normal guide PLUS the data associated with the fake zip code?

From what I heard the plan is...... Once we feed the 3410a the RF feed with TVG on it,
the 3410a should, based on zipcode entered into the 3410a, decode the required data, and it should ask the same series of questions regarding cable channels it does now with OTA TVG signals and your zipcode.

There is no zipcode to enter on the TR40 in TVG mode... it just boots to TVG mode, and that is it. No control, no zipcode, no nothing.

I hear that up to 8 different versions of TVG will be put out from the TR40.

I learned that when told that WTTW in Chicagoland was outputting both V7 and V8 TVG data.

Once I see more than CC on Line 21, then it will become "Interesting".

I get guide data now from three different OTA markets. It'd sure be nice if I could keep that going.

From what I heard the plan is...... Once we feed the 3410a the RF feed with TVG on it,
the 3410a should, based on zipcode entered into the 3410a, decode the required data, and it should ask the same series of questions regarding cable channels it does now with OTA TVG signals and your zipcode.I have a little bit different take on this... I think that perhaps the existing digital guide data arrives too fast to be put onto VBI (thus the reason that nothing is being passed through yet*) I suspect this new "TR-40 targeted" guide data is going to be sent out throttled down so that it's slow enough to encode into the VBI (which can't support a particularly high bit rate.) I can't imagine them throttling down all the guide data for other (non-TR-40) versions too. Nope, I'm betting on getting just the data for the TR-40 zip codes (and probably not for any zip codes that are out of the CBS stations's coverage area either.) It should still work, but you'll have to manually re-map the channels from 100+10*C+S format to C.S format after the lineup has been established.

*The reason I suspect the higher data rate on current digital TVGOS is that on analog, one only gets 4 days worth of listings in a 3-hour period. I'm pretty sure I've observed 8 days worth of listings populating in less time than that via the digital host. Thus my (possibly flawed) conclusion.

Somebody here with a brand new Sony LCD with TVGOS that says they're getting guide info from an OTA digital channel is only getting two days worth. Don't know if it's just that particular model or a digital TVGOS thing in general.

Thanks Frank & Jan. I'll be waiting for some data here in the DC Area.

Somebody here with a brand new Sony LCD with TVGOS that says they're getting guide info from an OTA digital channel is only getting two days worth. Don't know if it's just that particular model or a digital TVGOS thing in general.I get 8 days off of digital. Does his grid extend out 8 days, with the last 6 days marked as "No Listing"; or is his grid only 2 days long? If the latter, maybe it's just a Sony imposed limitation on that model (since it's a TV and not a recording device, having an 8-day advance guide would seem not terribly useful; i.e. why would you want your TV to turn on five days from now at 8:00PM?) Another rationale would be that the listings for today and tomorrow are more accurate than those further out.

I think that perhaps the existing digital guide data arrives too fast to be put onto VBI (thus the reason that nothing is being passed through yet) I suspect this new "TR-40 targeted" guide data is going to be sent out throttled down so that it's slow enough to encode into the VBI (which can't support a particularly high bit rate.)My CBS digital channel has 2 PIDs labeled TVG1 and TVG2. I've seen data on TVG1; it uses about 26.5 Kbps when active and 1.5 Kbps when inactive. I thought I once saw TVG2 with active data at about 1.4 Kbps but I may have been mistaken. It's about 1.4 Kbps inactive.

Just a guess, but they could use TVG1 for the receivers that can take the high speed digital feed directly and TVG2 for the slower analog feed.

Does his grid extend out 8 days, with the last 6 days marked as "No Listing"; or is his grid only 2 days long?That I don't know - I'll have to ask him.

My CBS digital channel has 2 PIDs labeled TVG1 and TVG2. I've seen data on TVG1; it uses about 26.5 Kbps when active and 1.5 Kbps when inactive. I thought I once saw TVG2 with active data at about 1.4 Kbps but I may have been mistaken. It's about 1.4 Kbps inactive.

Just a guess, but they could use TVG1 for the receivers that can take the high speed digital feed directly and TVG2 for the slower analog feed.May be... 1.4Kbps seems about the max VBI could reliably handle on a single line. I'm not familiar with the CC specs, but even with CC at whatever bitrate they use, you'll see lots of errors in the text if reception is poor.

Rammitinski,

Does the LST 3410-A have a way to hook up a IR Blaster? If so, where is the jack, and what is a good one to buy?

Thanks

Can someone help me here? I have the Directv HD DVR HR21, and the LG Lst 3410A. I want to know if there is a way to record HD content from the HR21 DVR to my 3410A . I'm not a techie, So could you help in simple terms , if there a way to do this. Thanks, Cjes.

If the other DVR has an ASTC RF output, maybe, but I doubt it has...

Or if you don't mind SD recording, you could take SD Composite video ouput and feed it into 3410a and record it that way, but that won't be HD.

There were some attempts of file transfer via Firewire, but I think it only worked on a MAC.

Another way would be to transfer to dVHS via firewire then to the 3410a.

If you have a Mac with firewire there are some free apps that will do the transfer just fine, provided the original file was glitch free, but dVHS I think is more reliable, especially if the file isn't perfect. There's a thread on this in the Mac section of this forum.

If you don't have either a dVHS deck or a Mac, it would probably be easier to borrow a Mac than a dVHS deck.

No data yet, but I've successfully added the CH3 notch and add box to my cable feed, without affecting CH2 (Cable) Ch4 (Local inserter) or Ch5 & above (Cable).

All I need now is TVG data to the scope first, then connect the CH3 TVG RF to the CH3 inserter....... I'll try that later this week.....

Hey Jan,

What are you using for the CH3 notch filter? I see lots for channels 75 and above, but not much for the low VHF.

Thanks

Hey Jan,

What are you using for the CH3 notch filter? I see lots for channels 75 and above, but not much for the low VHF.

ThanksHere is one (with its channel 4 brother):
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=40-SC3A
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=40-SC4A

That looks like the one's I've got!!!

SC-3 and SC-4

Let Me REVISE That last post!

The one's I have are not amplified. They are Passive... Same model numbers
I do follow it up with an amp, though...

I'll find a link to the exact units I'm using!

Here they are! And the price is RIGHT!!!
http://www.summitsource.com/channel-4-signal-combiner-eagle-aspen-sc4-ch4-signal-combiner-6-stage-bandpass-bandstop-filter-and-adjustable-attenuator-part-sc4-p-5884.html
http://www.summitsource.com/channel-4-signal-combiner-eagle-aspen-sc4-ch4-signal-combiner-6-stage-bandpass-bandstop-filter-and-adjustable-attenuator-part-sc4-p-5884.html

Thanks Frank & Jan,

Gettin' ready...

Last night I successfully took the CH3 output of the DTVPAL TR-40 (In TVG mode) and combined it back into the cable feed. I suspect the TR-40 may be on Terristrial Channel 3, not Cable channel 3, as I had a bit of problems with CH3 video beating against CH2 Cable (Cable channels are +.5Mc higher than terristrail RF Channels, if I remember correctly).
Trimming up RF levels minimized interferrance.

I still have the scope hooked up to video output of TR-40, and as of last night, still no TVG Data
All three LG3410a's remain Locked to VBI of Channel 7 (I'm in Chicagoland) as they have been for a long while now.

Once TVG Data is seen in VBI of TR-40, will switch one of three LG3410a's to lock to VBI on Channel 3, and then the fun begins!!!! :)!

Now I sit back and wait!!!

Now I sit back and wait!!!Jan, has tech@echostar.com been of any assistance in pinning down a date when this might happen? Nobody seems to be reporting any TVGOS info from them, but they appear to be responsive to other TR-40 issues. I will bug them if nobody else has.

I suspect the TR-40 may be on Terristrial Channel 3, not Cable channel 3, as I had a bit of problems with CH3 video beating against CH2 Cable (Cable channels are +.5Mc higher than terristrail RF Channels, if I remember correctly).According to my favorite TV frequency listing, http://www.cabl.com/restaurant/freq.html the frequency for CATV channel 3 in both Standard and IRC formats is the same as broadcast. In HRC it's 1.25 MHz lower. However, I've heard that some broadcasters are required to adjust their frequencies a bit to reduce interference with distant transmissions on the same or adjacent channels; maybe cable does the same.

Here's an interesting thing I learned by accident on the TR-40:

If you are in the TVG mode, the audio level is un-adjustable.
If you go back into the Non-TVG mode, and then set the audio level in this mode..... That audio level will be the audio level that gets applied when you switch back to TVG mode...

Different.

Here's an interesting thing I learned by accident on the TR-40:

If you are in the TVG mode, the audio level is un-adjustable.
If you go back into the Non-TVG mode, and then set the audio level in this mode..... That audio level will be the audio level that gets applied when you switch back to TVG mode...

Different.The audio level capability of all CECB's is rather redundant, as the TV or monitor that ultimately displays the programming will have its own. Primarily it's a convenience feature to avoid having to switch remotes to lower the volume, but it's best left all the way up for normal use.

In TVGOS mode, the DTVPal appears to respond ONLY to the number buttons; for example (Scientific Atlanta) channel-up and channel-down don't change the channel, so I think it's reasonable to expect the volume controls wouldn't work either (if a Scientific Atlanta box even supports volume control - my remote doesn't seem to think so.)

GBA 9 OTA DTVPal TVGOS Stations

My question to them:
I understand that currently CBS owned and operated affiliates are to
be carrying the EPG info digitally and the PBS has carried the
information for analogue.
In my market area (Toledo and Detroit) WTOL, and WWJ should be
carrying it. When will these station be providing this feed?

Their Response 09/22/2008 10:50 AM
This system is not live yet. The DTV Pal picks up the digital CBS station and converts it back to analog. Your DVD recorder will always receive it's listings via analog. WWJ already has a digital inserter but this feature is not live. We will turn this feature on some time closer to the analog shut down. To receive listings now setup your DVD recorder to antenna only.

Best Regards,
(Peter)
CE Technical Support
TV Guide on Screen

Their Response 09/22/2008 10:50 AM
This system is not live yet. The DTV Pal picks up the digital CBS station and converts it back to analog. Your DVD recorder will always receive it's listings via analog. WWJ already has a digital inserter but this feature is not live. We will turn this feature on some time closer to the analog shut down. To receive listings now setup your DVD recorder to antenna only.I wonder how the folks with TVGOS receivers in Wilmington NC feel about that. They switched to all-digital on 9/8.

About all we can do is prepare for it, and keep testing to see if it's there.

FORTUNATELY, I have access to a long term loan on the scope. Every couple of days I turn it on, and it's already set for vertical interval sweep.
Once I start seeing data on lines other than line 21 (Closed Captioning on line 21, fields 1 and 2), I'll post which lines I see it on...

Rumour has it that there will probably be 4 lines of data inserted.

Once I see more than one line of data (CC), I'll then do a line select and determine which lines the TVG data is being output on.

I've already mixed the DTVPAL back into cable on CH3, and any TV in house (Or any 3410a) can display Closed Captioning off this signal with ease. That should mean that decoding TVG data should be flawless off this signal as welll.

My plan once I get data: Change one 3410a from Locked on CH7, to Locked on CH3, and once it gets data I'll be able to do a side-by-side TVG Data comparison, between the 2 x 3410a's set for cable channel 7 (ABC in Chicago) to one 3410a set for my mixed in channel 3 (fed from DTVPAL).

I'm presently just sitting back, cooling my heels, awaiting TVG Data! (It's nice to be "Ahead of the Game" for a change, instead of fighting to 'keep up'! :)!

..I'll be able to do a side-by-side TVG Data comparison, between the 2 x 3410a's set for cable channel 7 (ABC in Chicago) to one 3410a set for my mixed in channel 3 (fed from DTVPAL).So, are you saying that you have two 3410a's set up to receive it from cable, and one OTA? Or all three cable?

No... All 3 of my 3410a's are setup as:

Cable Yes
Cablebox No

That means that it's looking for TVG off the Cable feed.
I mixed my local channel 3 and channel 4 feeds into an isolated cable feed, and feed this resultant (Cable 3+4) feed to the whole house.

I'm presently locked to Cable Channel 7 (ABC) for TVG on all 3410a's.
Plan is, (once I start seeing data on video from DTVPAL), to switch one 3410a from locked on Cable channel 7, to locked on Cable channel 3, and see how that works.

Assuming that data is received by the DTVPAL, I'm thinking that this won't be too complicated....

If Analog cable goes away entirely.... I'll just have 2 signals on the cable feed. The DTVPAL on Channel 3, and the Cablebox video/audio output modulated on channel 4.

That means that it's looking for TVG off the Cable feed.Ah - because the cable situation is different from the OTA one. Well, at least as far as my situation is concerned, since I don't have cable.

It *might* tell us if the Pal can convert it, but it doesn't help as far as when or if I'll be receiving it OTA.

Oh, well.

I'm selecting that so I get the TVG logos for Cable channels and local channels both(with cable #'s).
That's why I re-direct the Local OTA channel logos--- to OTA Channel numbers.

Works very nicely

So, Jan...didn't realize (or recognize) that you were looking for TVGOS via cable...I therefore assume that's how you are presently getting TVGOS from a local analog station.

Someone else (as I recall, in Albany) has noted the 2 different TVGOS parts coming from their CBS digital station, with "TVG1" now having a much greater bandwidth than TVG2. I assume that is consistent with what you are presently seeing on your CBS digital station???

If so, I'll remain confident that when the TVG2 feed appears, you'll see it. My guess would also be that the TVG2 feed would also appear at roughly the same time from other CBS digital stations around the country that are already broadcasting TVGOS.

I, like many others, use the LG only for OTA...so I'm asking these questions just to clarify what kind of feed you're looking at and what we should expect...

Thanks - Tony

I believe thats the only way you can get Cable listings.

Cable is the input I'm using... I'm thinking that once data is sent, on an OTA only 3410a, you could change to
Cable Yes
Cablebox No

and hook RF output of DTVPAL to cable input of 3410a, and it should work...... That is once the data is received....

I'm looking at VBI of the TVG video signal off the DTVPAL.

Once they start sending it---I'll find it.

Hi guys - I was wondering where to post this, and this seems to most active- and relevant-- thread.

I have a kinda rare unit-- the LG 42-inch LCD tv that LG built with an LG DVR *inside* it. TV+DVR combined. I still love it.

As far as I can guess, LG simply stripped down their own DVR, slammed it inside, and hooked it up to the tuner. 120GB hard drive, TVGOS.

From what it's sounding like, this DVR (3410a, and the one "inside" my LG tv) will only get TVGOS data from an "analog" signal - and it sounds like you're all playing with your dtvpals and seeing if the uplink works, or..?

I had an interesting conversation with an LG rep, who claimed that a (not ready yet) software upgrade for my "dvr" will allow me to get TVGOS off of the digital signal (presumably CBS). Is this bunk? Do I have to depend on a converter box? (just got my 2 DTVPAL's yesterday).

I am of the opinion that the 3410a has been "Orphaned" by LG. I have no knowledge about Combo units.
I think that the LCD/DVR combo unit han V8 TVG in it. Our 3410a's have V7 TVG in it.

Hopefully we'll know in the next month how good it will work with the DTVPAL in TVG boot mode.

As far as I can guess, LG simply stripped down their own DVR, slammed it inside, and hooked it up to the tuner. 120GB hard drive, TVGOS.

I'd be curious if you could actually check to verify which TVGOS version your unit uses, 1 or 2...thanks

The version I have, according to the diagnostic screen is Version 8. See screenshot:

I'd be curious if you could actually check to verify which TVGOS version your unit uses, 1 or 2...thanks

I'm only familiar with the firmware version checking- V7,V8,V9... How do I determine if it's a "1 or 2" ? (I presume you're asking for hardware rev?)

I'm only familiar with the firmware version checking- V7,V8,V9... How do I determine if it's a "1 or 2" ? (I presume you're asking for hardware rev?)
no - just confirmation of Jan's suspicion that you have version 8 - which means that your unit CAN in principle get TVGOS from a digital station...

There's been a lot of experimenting with getting TVGOS from digital stations described in the Sony DHG 250/500 thread, which is a lot like the 3410a, without some of its difficulties but with some of its own....however, it IS version 8 and various people (including yours truly) have gotten TVGOS downloads from local digital stations, whereas that ain't possible with the 3410a by itself, though we hope the DTVPal will be an adequate intervention.

In fact, since you have version 8, the TVGOS diagnostics described in that thread (see especially the link to Spiffy's site in the FIRST POST of that thread) will probably be more useful for your purposes than the more limited aids in this thread (which doesn't have he equivalent of Spiffy's manual and site, in any case).

OK, thanks muchfor the info- and yeah, I'll mosey back to that thread. One of those- the sony one, was something like 380 pages worth. *gah*.

Very interesting-- almost a year ago when I first brought this up, someone said that only the *v9* could do digital tvgos-- and that the V8 folks were out in the cold.

Looks like the answer was correct-- but only in that it applies to V7, not V8 or 9.

However, it looks like the DTVPAL provides a decent workaround for everyone else. I'm amazed that I purchased the correct unit (dtvpal) for my CECB's. As soon as I heard about the echostar unit(s) out of CES 08, I *knew* that was the one to get. The "TVGOS mode" of those things is a bonus I did not expect. Nice comfy to have as my backup- just in case.......................

Very interesting-- almost a year ago when I first brought this up, someone said that only the *v9* could do digital tvgos-- and that the V8 folks were out in the cold.That might have been me, because that's what I'd been hearing up 'till that time, and I was relating that a lot around here whenever people brought the subject up. I had heard it a few, seemingly legitimate places, and that was before anyone else here knew anything otherwise.

Ah! OK, thanks. Offhand, where IS the uh, "official" information with regards to TVGOS and Digital EPG data, or is there??

Ah! OK, thanks. Offhand, where IS the uh, "official" information with regards to TVGOS and Digital EPG data, or is there??
the second paragraph im my response to you above summarizes the situation,

except that...

Gemstar has said that they will be supporting ALL versions of TVGOS, and the thought is that - in addition to the straight digital TVGOS for more recent versions (8 and up) - they will be broadcasting data set(s) that the DTVPal can convert (along with the AVS) to analog form, so that versions 7 and lower can get data, as needed, from an analog channel...

But apparently they haven't finished up the code for this, though they HAD planned to have it on the airwaves a month or so ago...

OK Folks, another weirdness... We have discussed that COMCAST (In my case Montgomery County, Maryland) blocks the TVGOS data from the VBI. I have confirmed this and my 3410a has run weeks without any guide data. Now, all of a sudden, I have good data for today and tomorrow and a couple of days in the next week. I don't remember the download sequence, but I think that is what I am seeing. My question: has anyone else had their missing COMCAST data come back??

Comcast blocks VBI on analog outputs coming out of their boxes here, but the analog cable RF channels are not blocked (in the VBI).
Comcast Skokie here.

I just had a weird thing happen...3 days ago, I initialized the guide to original state after increasing problems getting guide info, beginning in May until recently it became basically useless. I figured that since - with the beginning of the fall program schedule - I was having to set more and more recordings manually, I might as well start the guide from scratch to see what happened.

After I did that and left it overnight, the guide screen came up with no listings and a message saying that it had been unable to find data and that I should check my cable and so on...this despite the fact that the front-panel guide light was often on.

After playing around a bit and verifying that PBS channel 9 was turned on AND that the picture and sound were good, I left it overnight again, and the next day the guide screen simply said something like "no data for this screen" - I took this to be a better message than before, but STILL no channel setup, let alone listings!

So I left it overnight AGAIN - this morning the guide came up again with the unable to find data message. Again, I checked things, and I happened to leave it tuned to channel 9 (i.e., analog) before I turned it off, with little hope of any change.

This evening I checked it again, and I had - not only a channel lineup - but listings for days 1,2,3, and 8!

I don't know what's been going on OR whether leaving it tuned to PBS had any effect. Earlier in the summer, after comparing notes with another 3410a owner in the SF area, I became convinced that there was something going wrong with the version 7 data. (My Sony 250 has had no problem getting data during this several month period AND, until I did the TV Guide reset, the guide service screen continued to show 9 as the host channel - though, of course, it didn't after I reset the guide.)

It is entirely possible that KQED (or I should say, the Gemstar input) somehow fatally screwed up (or omitted) the v7 data, and it just happened to get un-screwed-up today.

Is it possible, by the way, that the guide light would activate if the unit simply SAW that there was TVGOS data, even if the data didn't work for the unit?

Whatever problem it was, I sure hope it's resolved, because it has been a real pain since May, and especially recently.

Just out of curiosity..... did you just try to get data on it's own, or did you try and "lock" the VBI data by parking on the channel and entering in the codes?

Just out of curiosity..... did you just try to get data on it's own, or did you try and "lock" the VBI data by parking on the channel and entering in the codes?
I just let it do its own thing...I was a bit leery of trying the lock, considering all the warnings that went along with that...

any thought about whether the guide light would show up, even if v7 data was defective or not even there?

Earlier this evening I was watching a manually set recording, after which I turned off the machine and left for a while. The Guide light came on after having not been on. For the past few days I had been unplug/replugging and getting some Guide data. Light would be on for a long while but then off for a longer time. Not sure if there are any differences between the LG and Sony machines' TVGOS firmware but it's amazing that the Sony would receive data but not the LG. Considering that Comcast has done some shuffling around of channels, both SD and HD, it's surprising that any channels would appear on the 3410. Of course I had to manually change the lineup in TVGOS to reflect the channel shuffling that Comcast has done. I too am wary of trying the lock.

Still can't get complete Fox HD recordings because of our local Fox affiliate's SD subchannel which will randomly interfere with HD programming. :mad:

Jan, I have not been using a box with the 3410a. It has always been directly off the cable. You are saying that I should be getting the TVGOS data under that hookup? I thought it was blocked at the head-end, not by the box. At any rate, when I lock to the cable version of the PBS station that carries the OTA analog data, I get nothing.

Here I do the following: Cable feeds a bi-directional amp, and then is split 3 ways.
One goes to Cable box. The component video, composite video outputs of the cable box have their VBI Blanked to line 21, by the Motorola box Comcast supplies. Won't get any TVG data off the box video feeds, no matter which channel it's set to.

2nd output of the cable RF spitter feeds the analog cable channels to the "Cable input" of the 3410a. (for now we'll forget about the local CH3 and CH4 mixers). I'm decoding TVG data off the Analog Cable feeds. Those are NOT being blanked by Comcast. I'm thinking that if they decoded the RF to baseband video, and re-modulated it, Then they could blank VBI... But that would cost $$$.
The Antenna 1 feeds here is coming from a U/V TV antenna split and fed to the 3410a's.

Is that clearer?

Hi Jan, Thanks for the info, but I do not get ANY TVGOS data off of the "naked" cable feed. That is where our setups are different. I have let the 3410a search the entire cable feed many times, both by resetting the TVGOS, and by changing the ZIP, and neither gets me any data. Also, I have locked it to the cable station that I get the OTA data from, and that does not work either. Oh well, I am currently getting good OTA data, and that will have to do.

If your not getting any data off Cable feeds, either your 3410a isn't working, or the stations that are on cable aren't supplying it, or each channel is being stripped of VBI data.

The easyiest way of determining it would be to feed composite ouput of a cheapie VCR to a scope and observe VBI of the channels...

The easyiest way of determining it would be to feed composite ouput of a cheapie VCR to a scope and observe VBI of the channels...

Before you go out and buy/borrow a scope, if you can get the station that is carrying the data on rabbit ears plug the antenna in and see if you get some data. If guide shows up then it's the cable feed. If doesn't show up over the air then either the station data is messed up or your 3410A is kaput.

Before you go out and buy/borrow a scope, if you can get the station that is carrying the data on rabbit ears plug the antenna in and see if you get some data. If guide shows up then it's the cable feed. If doesn't show up over the air then either the station data is messed up or your 3410A is kaput.
Thanks mdput, I have a good scope - - - time is the problem!!!

Will get it done though, before the digital complication.

My weekly follow up...
Nothing new on the DTVPAL in TVG mode....
Still only CC in VBI.......

Darn!

My weekly follow up...
Nothing new on the DTVPAL in TVG mode....
Still only CC in VBI.......

Darn!Just to let you all know... I sent an email to tech@echostar.com two weeks ago asking them if they had any info on when the TVGOS mode of their boxes would start working. ABSOLUTELY no reply whatever, neither with information or to say they had no information. Sigh...

At this point, I'm all set to go... Just patiently awaiting data.
Last email I sent to the contact I've been 'typing to' did not get answered, either.

Last thing I heard was a push back from early Sept. to late Oct..

I'l turn on the scope and examine VBI every few days.... Once I see something other than CC on line 21, I'll post what and where I'm finding.... I'm thinking that I'll wait and watch it a couple of days before attempting to lock it to a 3410a.... We're not there, yet, though... so that is speculation.... Going back to sleep...

In plain English what does all this mean? What is VBI and why should we care? I have had a 3410 for a few years and basically use it as my tuner. I've used it for OTA in the past but now just for connection to cable. I assume this is all about the digital switch and whether or not the guide data will be available OTA on this machine after Feb 09?
Thanks
Mike

Just to let you all know... I sent an email to tech@echostar.com two weeks ago asking them if they had any info on when the TVGOS mode of their boxes would start working. ABSOLUTELY no reply whatever, neither with information or to say they had no information. Sigh...Maybe you should email TVGOS.

In plain English what does all this mean? What is VBI and why should we care? I have had a 3410 for a few years and basically use it as my tuner. I've used it for OTA in the past but now just for connection to cable. I assume this is all about the digital switch and whether or not the guide data will be available OTA on this machine after Feb 09?
Thanks
MikeVBI=Vertical Blanking Interval. In NTSC video (the kind we've been using since television began) it's a number of scan lines which aren't part of the picture. If you're old enough to remember TVs with vertical hold controls (or maybe still use one) you could roll the picture and see the VBI as a wide horizontal black bar.

Some of the lines can contain test signals or digital data. Closed Caption (CC) information is there, on Line 21. Sometimes you can see it at the top of the screen as moving short white lines. Gemstar's TV Guide On Screen (TVGOS) information may be carried on another line by stations that have an agreement with Gemstar to do so, and the LG DVR and some other receivers scan the analog channels looking for it. That's how they get their program guides.

Gemstar has a version of their guides for digital broadcast and they have an agreement with CBS affiliates to transmit it. Newer TVGOS-equipped digital receivers can use it directly but the 3410A cannot. Even though it's a digital receiver, it needs the proper format of data on an analog channel to update the guide, and most analog broadcast channels will soon shut down. It is hoped that Gemstar will eventually supply an analog-compatible version of the guide on CBS digital stations and that the Echostar DTVPal/TR-40 will take that data from the digital bitstream and put it on a suitable line of the VBI of its NTSC output for older receivers to use.

Although some cable companies will convert local digital channels to analog, at least for a while, it's unlikely that they will go out of their way to provide analog TVGOS data on any of them.

what ebo said

Thanks EBO, I now understand a little better. The 3410 will not be able to understand the ATSC guide data and there is hope that someone will continue to xmit NTSC guide data so our systems can see the guides, does that about sum it up?

Yes... The V7 TVG in the 3410a can only detect VBI of NTSC transmissions.
The Echostar TR40, booted into the TVG mode (not default operations)
is supposed to (eventually) put out multiple TVG versions in the VBI, (Up to 4 other lines) so that all of the older TVG systems continue past next February.

Rumour has it, though, that implementation of the code do do this (not boot mode in the TR40, but software codes sent to it) are running late...

A few of us are waiting to test this.... For example, I've a scope hooked up to the video out of the TR40, and once I see more signals that CC (Line 21) in the VBI, we'll know the fun has begun!

Hello to everyone. I've been reading through all the previous posts and I've found this thread to be a wealth of useful information. Thanks to all who have been contributing.

Regarding the use of a TR-40 to get the TVGOS data after Feb '09:
I want to buy one of the converter boxes in anticipation that once they've got the software up and running, I'll still be able to use the guide on my 3410a. I've got one question that I hope someone will be able to answer. I see that there are 3 different versions of Dish Networks DTVPal. There is the TR-40 CRA (the lowest cost at $40), the DTVPal (same features? but priced at $59.99), and the DTVPal Plus (better reception in weak signal areas for $69.99.) So will all 3 of these boxes have the special TVG boot mode? Has anyone got any additional information about the differences?

The only difference is that the "Plus" model is supposed to have a more sensitive tuner, although the others are very sensitive as it is. Might just be slightly amped.

Otherwise, they are all exactly the same. They all have the "TVGOS conversion" feature, even though nobody's ever gotten it to work yet. Get the TR-40CRA(P), since it'll only cost you tax.

I say "CRA{P}" because, other than the guide and the sensitivity, it's not a very good tuner. If the TVGOS ever does work on it, that's really the only good reason for TVGOS users like us to get it. There are much less buggy, better all-around boxes out there that have much better picture quality. There are also other models that can be controlled by IR blasters, which the LG and most other HDD/DVD recorders out there have (and of those tuners, at least the Channel Master has a pretty decent guide), and one other model with event timers which, unlike the DTVPal's, actually work (the Zinwell).

You may not notice the picture quality if your TV is no larger than 13". People that are saying it looks good to them are either coming from snowy, ghosty analog, or are watching on tiny TV sets. If you're coming from digital television using something like the LG, you will notice. It's so overly soft that it gives you a headache to watch.

The timers generally don't work, the box turns itself off anytime it feels like it, and sometimes it won't turn on from the remote - you have to unplug and reboot the damned thing first. Mine also gets extremely hot after being on awhile (absolutely no ventilation), and starts behaving erratically in other ways, too.

And to top it all off, Dish/Echostar's attitude about the whole thing is "So what?".

That's why I say get the TR-40 - you'll feel less ripped off the less you actually have to pay for it.

Regarding the use of a TR-40 to get the TVGOS data after Feb '09:
I want to buy one of the converter boxes in anticipation that once they've got the software up and running, I'll still be able to use the guide on my 3410a.In addition to Rammitinski's response, I'm leery of the ability of the TR-40/DTVPal/Plus's ability to do what we hope it will, considering the number of serious firmware issues that have already been discovered, some of which, like the timer issues, were worked out years ago on VCRs and should be no-brainers now. I have little faith in their programmers; their best bet would be to make their code open-source and let the hackers have at it.

Even if it does put analog TVGOS on its output I'm not sure it will work with the 3410A due to some unreasonable requirements in that firmware. Consider: I get guide data from WRGB, the local CBS affiliate, on analog channel 6. To do that I must enable that channel in Ch. Edit (fair enough) and also assign it to a station listing (a.k.. logo) in the TV Guide "Setup/Change channel display" (shouldn't be necessary, but OK). However, I've found I can't just assign any unused logo to 6-0; it has to be the one for WRGB or I won't get the guide. I don't know how it knows the difference, but it does. Since I have only one logo for WRGB, I can't assign it to 6-1, which means that if I forget and schedule a recording from WRGB I'll get the analog channel.

Now, what's going to happen when I try to get a guide from 3-0 (the output of the DTVPal tuned to my digital guide channel, which happens to be 6-1)? Do I have to tell the 3410A that my one and only source of CBS programming is 3-0? Will the DVR even accept it as the "right" channel to get guide data from? I'll just have to wait and see.

As for what to buy, I'd agree with Rammitinski to get the cheap one if you have a coupon expiring soon or you learn that the TR-40 is about to be discontinued. Otherwise I'd say not to buy in anticipation but to wait until the pioneers (the ones with the arrows in their backs) report that it works or doesn't and never will. Otherwise you could miss out on a firmware upgrade that makes it work or fixes some other useful feature.

so the short answer is that Gemstar says the DtvPal is the one that will do the conversion you want...so you can wait until later to get a unit that has less chance of having a bug.

If you have a coupon, then buy one now...it's anybody's guess which model has a greater chance of working, given the possibility of bugs, but most of us on this thread are hoping the DtvPal we already have will work, once Gemstar gets the code for the required conversion working...

Thanks for all the responses. I do have a coupon, but it doesn't expire until Dec 29th. So I will probably wait a little longer before I place an order.

BTW, does anyone know if the end user can upgrade the firmware on the DTVPal?

BTW, does anyone know if the end user can upgrade the firmware on the DTVPal?No, you can't. That's what really sucks.

Since May, I've had continuing problems getting guide data. Since mid September, this means that I only get data about 60% of the time, even though when it fails, I do a 7-second unplug, which has about a 50% chance of successfully resetting the unit so I get guide data overnight.

As noted in an earlier post, I did a complete TV Guide reset a couple of weeks ago, and it took about 3 days for me to start getting guide data. After that, I got data got 3 or 4 straight days, but then it settled back to roughly the 60% mark, which is a real pain, because I only get that if I check every day, and often do the unplug reset. I wish I could figure out how to get back to the way it worked before the summer...

I had a funny thing happen today. Last night, because I hadn't gotten data the previous night, I did the 7-sec reset. This morning, I found I had gotten PARTIAL data, in a way I had never seen before. That is, I found I had new data for next Thursday (day 8), but I STILL had no data for tomorrow, Friday (day 2). So I turned the unit off (without a reset) and - when I checked again at 5 PM - I actually had data for tomorrow.

Previously, I had thought that the data didn't "take" unless you got the full download for days 1,2, and 8 - guess I was wrong.

Still doesn't solve my chronic problem, of course.

I've also found lately that SOME of the manual recordings I have set to get a program without having the TV Guide data for that day don't work - the unit turns ON, but the recording doesn't start. This has happened a couple of times while I've been watching a program on another unit - e.g., my Sony 250 - and I've missed part of the program the LG was supposed to be recording, as a result...very irritating.

avnstf:
While this sounds a lot like the bad capacitor problem that Jan J found on several units, there is another possibility. Have you locked your guide channel? If not, check what channel the LG has chosen when you're getting good data and again when you aren't. If they're different you could try locking to the good one.

In many areas there are two stations that broadcast guides. In my case it's the CBS and PBS stations. I've never gotten usable data from the PBS station. After a reset the LG would choose the CBS station and ask me to pick a lineup. After that I might get listings for a day or two, then nothing. I'd find it had switched to the PBS station. I was about ready to try a cap replacement when I read how to force the LG to use a particular guide channel. I tried that and have gotten good data ever since.

I haven't felt the need to lock the host channel, because it's always stayed on PBS 9, whenever I checked (which I did again this AM, after I found no new listings downloaded overnight)...

I keep wondering whether the TVGOS broadcast is somehow screwing something up...but you think this can also be a symptom of capacitor problems...can this be fixed if I still have a warranty from CC (which I do)?

I keep wondering whether the TVGOS broadcast is somehow screwing something up...but you think this can also be a symptom of capacitor problems...can this be fixed if I still have a warranty from CC (which I do)?Good luck with that. I don't know if LG is still "fixing" these, but when they were they were playing "Mad Hatter's Tea Party" with them, and what you'd get back was not your box fixed but someone else's problem box, maybe with a firmware update. They're certainly not going to bother with component-level repairs.

What I referred to was replacing certain electrolytic capacitors myself, as Jan J has done to several units and reported in detail here. A thread search for his posts with "capacitor" in them should turn them up. But don't even consider trying this yourself if you're not skilled at such repairs; you'll do more harm than good.

Someone over in the Sony DVR forum found this link: http://www.macrovision.com/dtv/10053.htm that explicitly names the DTVPal in the upper right cell. This implies that the plan is still in the works (I had thought maybe they just gave up on the whole idea.) And like Jan, I'm just watching to see when it happens.

Someone over in the Sony DVR forum found this link: http://www.macrovision.com/dtv/10053.htm that explicitly names the DTVPal in the upper right cell. This implies that the plan is still in the works (I had thought maybe they just gave up on the whole idea.) And like Jan, I'm just watching to see when it happens.

Thanks, I should have posted that link here also. I wonder how soon the broadcast channels will start displaying a countdown clock? Yet I understand that sales have dropped for digital TV. We live in interesting times.

Of course they also say, "TV Guide is ready for the Digital TV Transition" when clearly they are not, or they'd be feeding the data already.

They do let you check your cable company by zip code to see if it plans to continue to feed analog data. Mine says it will, but I wouldn't be surprised to find that they only agreed not to strip the data out of the digital feed and I still need a converter.

I've recently come across a strange issue in selecting resolution with my LG unit. Once you get past selecting, 'Native', 1080i or 720p, there are three variables that lock you into a specific resolution. In DVI mode, I'm locked into 720p, or 'variable 3' and I can't get out of it. Any suggestions on how to get the unit to unlock so that I can restore 1080i to my DVI ouput?


Thanks in advance for any help.

Mpls Mike:
I have that problem too, but I avoid taking the steps that cause it (once I got the resolution I wanted I left it alone).

To get out, try selecting RGB on the front panel. YPBPR might work too. See if that lets you step through the resolutions. If so, set the one you want and save it. Then change to DVI; it should be on the same resolution.

I've found my best video quality is by setting DVI or YUV for Native.
However, my DLP is a 720P unit.
I did experiment with the variable settings, but returned to Native.
From memory, I changed to output I wanted (Video, YUV, RGBHV, DVI) then format options.
When I create a DVD of a show for wife, I change it back to video, 480i, and when done back to either DVI, Native, or YUV, Native.

Might toss it to video, 480i to get it's attention (only composite, SVideo outputs work), then convert it back to the mode you want....

Ebo, Jan--

I fooled around with it last night and bounced between component and RGB. It unlocked and I'm back on 1080i. I'll probably set it back to Native and leave it at that.


--Mike

Seeing that all my 3410a's have no issues, and the DTVPAL TVG hasn't started yet..... I'm considering a "Winter Project".... While I evaluate the feasibility of this, I thought I'd bring it up here as a side issue, to get your knowledge of the feasability of this..


I've been given an older XP computer, and I'm thinking of home-brewing a DVR. However, I'm out of my league on this sort of thing....

It's an old Gateway 2.2Ghz P4 with 1Gb Ram, free PCI slots, and USBV2 so I think that's a good CPU starting point.
I've a spare USB V2 enclosure with cooling fan (with a 7200rpm 250GB Sata II/16mb cache drive) so that should be OK.

I'm thinking the last two issues are a OTA/Cable tuner card, and DVR software.

I've never researched this before.... But I hear it can be done...

Can tuners decode Cable Analog and the non-encrypted HD channels?

Now the 'extra's' I'm hoping to encorporate in this 'winter project':

I'm thinking whatever tuner I end up with should want to have Video/audio output jacks (I'm hoping a card that downconverts HD to SD), so I can modulate it to a channel for distribution to the whole house... This way we could watch at computer or other locations.

DVR software for XP? Anyone have any firsthand experiences? I woudn't mind purchasing the software....

Thanks to all... I'm a total novice in this....

Jan

Hi Jan,

I use a Dell GEN 5 equipped with the MD130 card to receive and if necessary record cable and OTA delivered material. The Dell GEN 5 is a 2 GB machine operating at 3.2 GHz. It has a dual core processor but I run XP. I get a gorgeous picture on my new Dell 30" display operating at 1900x1600. The MD130 does come with a dongle that I believe puts out Composite Video and Line L& R Audio. The software came with it.

BTW, 2 of my 3 3410's require repeated reboots daily and must be watched to record for an evening. No Guide information any more. I never changed the caps

The MyHD cards (I've got a 120) do the decoding, so they can be put in a relatively underpowered machine. Mine worked fine in a 2.4 GHz machine. Also, the daughtercard had a DVI output and optical digital audio output. I think the main card has a coax digital audio output.

The MD130 does come with a dongle that I believe puts out Composite Video and Line L& R Audio.The 130 has a multi-pin connector and a breakout cable for I/O. The cable provides for composite, S-Video and L/R audio in but not out. There's SPDIF audio out on the backplate and a connector on the card for analog audio to the computer's sound card. There is no way to get NTSC from this card short of adding a VGA to NTSC converter. Video output is via a 15-pin VGA connector on the cable that can be set in software for RGB (VGA-compatible) or component (requires a separate breakout cable for the 3 component connections). An optional daughterboard adds DVI and optical audio. Also, although you can feed NTSC in and record it, there's no hardware encoder and most people would be unhappy with the result.

It has two RF inputs and either can be set for OTA or cable, so you could connect antenna and cable or two antennas. It receives ATSC, QAM and analog. It's old technology and will not be upgraded, but it's great for an older, slower computer. 800 MHz is plenty. It has problems with Vista, multithreading, dual-core, etc. but there are workarounds.

The best feature is its hardware MPEG-2 decoder, with an output entirely independent of the computer's video system. Second best is its ability to play segmented transport stream files (e.g. Filename.0001.ts, Filename.0002.ts, etc.) without going to black or even glitching at the transitions. I don't know of any other hardware or software playback system that can do that. There's excellent 3rd party scheduling software (CW_EPG) that also works with Fusion and HDHomeRun tuners. CW_EPG is free; guide info for it is $20/yr and well worth it.

I think an ideal setup for an older computer would be a MyHD MDP-130 and an HDHomeRun (a separate box with dual tuners, networked), using the MyHD for all playback. I don't have an HDHR yet, but I'm tempted.

Jan J:
Computer-based digital tuners offer much more versatility than a standalone DVR such as the 3410A, but they also require more work. Many can decode QAM as well as 8VSB (ATSC), but some can't so you have to look for that. I expect all can record to the computer's hard drive since that's pretty easy; they just record the bits as they come in, optionally selecting just the streams associated with the subchannel of interest (it's also possible to record the full stream of a physical channel and select the subchannel on playback). Tuners can be on plug-in cards or separate boxes connected via USB or Ethernet. Many also tune analog and accept NTSC input, but most do not have hardware encoders; they expect the computer to handle that in software. An exception is the AutumnWave OnAir Creator, a USB-connected box; I recommend it if you plan to do a lot with analog. I have their OnAir GT, a smaller unit w/o the encoder that's ideal for use with my laptop. I like it fine, but I don't try to record analog with it.

Most such tuners record a standard ATSC transport stream that can be played by many programs. A few change the format slightly; you don't want that so do some homework. Free or low-cost programs are available to edit out commercials or other unwanted material. Tuners that are BDA-compliant and some others can be used with TSReader (the Lite version is free) to see technical details about the digital broadcasts; that's how I know that my local CBS station is sending streams called TVG1 and TVG2. To see what info you can get, go to www.rabbitears.info and find a station for which TSReader output is available.

You'll want a big hard drive in the computer, but plan on connecting others. USB, Firewire, eSATA and network drives are all possibilities.

Don't plan on using Windows MCE with this; it doesn't handle QAM well, apparently by design. Most tuners come with their own software, some of which is clunky and/or unstable; again, do your homework. Also consider the Linux-based MythTV software, which is free but limits your choice of tuners.

This is all really OT for this thread, so PM me for more details or point me to a more appropriate thread.

Jan...if I were doing something like this, I'd start with a computer that could handle a blu-ray writer! I gather you're more concerned about being able to distribute SD, which makes sense, but how about also having the high-end capability (and one you CAN'T get in a commercial unit in the U.S.)?

Fellow from across town called me. 3410a Randomly re-booting.... every 3-5 minutes.
I think I found it, and it's going to sound familiar....

On bottom of power supply, Pin 18 of main transformer was cold soldered...
I swapped power supplies with him, and it followed the supply...

From now on, any 3410 supply I work on, will also receive a small jumper wire, from Pin 18 to Diode (only place it's connected to).


This is the 3rd or 4th one I've seen! Symptoms ranged from won't turn on, to reboots randomly, to reboots when tapped.

bump

We've been out of town for a week. On return--Still no VBI data on TR40.
Did I miss anything???? :)!

No messages from guy I swapped supplies with... That's a good thing...

Jan,

New info for WASH, DC area:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15056299#post15056299

Have not had a chance to check out the digital TVGOS. Maybe it is here!

Unit resetting it self.... "Hello"
Power Supplies OK.
Does so with or without drive connected. Resets just 'sitting' there.

By IC102 -------> C129 10/16v. Page 3-41

When I cut it out (cut cap parallel to board, near base of cap cutting 'can' of cap), and used dental pick to work off remains of cap and plastic base, found dried residue from leaking cap under it on PCB traces....
This cleaned off with toothbrush and "Flux-Off" (Could have used Isopropol Alcohol sparengly instead).

Time will tell.

More on TVGOS Version 7 for Washington, DC.

I e-mailed the engineering staff at WUSA (Ch 9), CBS in DC, and asked about the Version 7 data from TV Guide. Here is the answer:

--

We asked TV Guide this very question and they responded back that as of now, they are not sending version 7 on the HD feeds. They are on the Analog feeds but we only carry the TV Guide Data on HD here.

The next release is being bench tested and they hope to implement early in Q1 2009.

Best Regards, Richard

Richard Gorbutt
Manager of Technology

--

Sounds like the CBS stations are inserting raw data from TV Guide. Whatever they provide
the station transmits.

Thus the true poop for DC. We wait...

Some may recognize me from the 6416 thread. I've been waiting for this thread for a while now. Seems like many of you now have 7216's. Please feel free to fire questions at me and I'll try my best to find the answers for you.

What is a 6416?

I've got a 3410a that's sat unused in my basement for probably 2 years. Is there anything I can/should do to verify it's still working? :)

I've got a 3410a that's sat unused in my basement for probably 2 years. Is there anything I can/should do to verify it's still working? :)
hook it up and see (unless you're planning to just let it keep sitting in the basement)

Heh, no.. probably going to sell it if there's still a market for them. I just need to make sure it works. Is there a way to reset it to stock so I can run through a fresh setup? I barely remember how it works!

Heh, no.. probably going to sell it if there's still a market for them. I just need to make sure it works. Is there a way to reset it to stock so I can run through a fresh setup? I barely remember how it works!
there is, but I don't remember and would have to go to the manual

why don't you just connect it and see what happens, just as a start...?

you may have a little trouble selling it until after the digital changeover late Feb, because we won't know for sure how it's working until then...

I think the big thing now is the waiting game we're playing waiting for the TR40 to start spitting out TVG data in VBI.

I hear it's postphoned --- Again

If this ever comes about.... then the 3410a will have life after analog transmission death.

This would be with the following cavaet's: In locations where Analog cable still exists AND where TV Stations put their cable analog feeds through the Norpak encoders... or where there is CBS Digital transmissions in conjunction with TR-40's in TVG Mode, and the end user makes this signal availble to her/his 3410a in some fashion.

I have been archiving OTA HDTV programs from the 3410A via fireware to a Mitsu DTR for the past few years, but storage and access are a bit cumbersome. It seems to me that it should be possible, at least in theory, to dump programs from the 3410A to a computer with a firewire port and then burn it to a Blu-Ray disc. Has anyone had any experience with this or knows of a software program that will accomplish this?

I've heard rumours that Mac's can do this with 3410a..
There were a couple programs that were talking about Windows access (Can't remember their names, and I don't recall hearing much about them recently)....

I'd love to be able to do this.... I'll take it to a higher level....

I'd PAY to be able to achive programs on and off the 3410a to a Windows box, as well as convert other programs to a format that could be played on the 3410a.

Of course I posted something simelar about 2 years ago...

If you find a program that does so (for Windows) please inform! :)!

I've managed to dump to HD-DVD using a Mac. It takes forever, and unless you re-encode everything, you end up with all sorts of hiccups and sync problems. I haven't come across a situation since then that I considered the operation worth the trouble.

I have been archiving OTA HDTV programs from the 3410A via fireware to a Mitsu DTR for the past few years, but storage and access are a bit cumbersome. It seems to me that it should be possible, at least in theory, to dump programs from the 3410A to a computer with a firewire port and then burn it to a Blu-Ray disc. Has anyone had any experience with this or knows of a software program that will accomplish this?

You can record to a Mac over firewire. There is a whole thread on how to do this in the Mac HTPC forum. It's pretty painless. The bad news is that it's difficult (at least for me) to convert the files to HD-DVD or Blu-Ray format using Mac software, so I wind up storing the files "as-is" as mpeg2 files. If you had an Intel Mac, you could use the Mac OS side to get the program to a hard disc and then use the Windows side for the transcoding, etc.

If I want to archive something, I usually go from the 3410a to dVHS.

f I want to archive something, I usually go from the 3410a to dVHS.

Same here. And I have a Mac. I forget the Mac program but it's easy to get. The PC program is CapDVHS. PM me if interested as I discovered I have a copy.

Since last May, I've had to carefully tend my 3410a to get listings, checking it each AM and, if it failed, doing a 7-second unplug to try resetting the TVGOS deal; even then I only had about 50% success, so that I did another reset in the evening, and for all my trouble I ended up getting listings for only about 5 days out of 7 on the average. People in this thread said it was probably the old capacitor problem, but who could tell...And I strongly suspected, based on the coordination of failures with someone else during the summer, that it was a broadcast screwup of some sort.

10 or 12 days ago, TVGOS (v8) for my Sony 250 started failing, and it was happening all over the country, judging from the Sony thread...Gemstar ended up saying it had something other to do with the data ending up in the wrong vbi place and screwing something up. By the weekend, the problem seemed to have been taken care of...

The funny thing is that since then, the listings on my 3410a have ALSO been working fine - I guess that, if they continue, I'll have to conclude that whatever they fixed for the Sony also fixed (perhaps unknowingly) a six-month-old problem for the 3410a. What a pain this has been! But I hope that's it, because I REALLY want my 3410 a to keep going...

I lost the guide in seattle 2 weeks ago or so I was told. It's was connected to Cable only and not currently to ota. The unplug, guide reset and vbi search don't seem to work. As of today the clock was set manually, not sure if it will change. Have yet to check if it's a Cable problem. I'll have to check it out when I get back there. Maybe plug an antenna to see what's up.

EDIT:
I was just told that the video picture just went all noisy. But the guide/menu's look fine. This unit kaput? I owned it since first released as well as the previous Zenith DVR... now if there was only a replacement dvr with ota/qam.

dhg:
There are a number of programs that will transfer D-VHS recordings to a PC so you could do it as a two-step process. Time consuming, but worth it if you don't have a lot to save. For future recordings it might be more practical to get a digital tuner for the PC.

Can't help you on Blu-ray conversion; I haven't taken that plunge yet (and won't until my local library has a collection of discs to loan).

I rarely use my 3410A anymore, I still love the thing, it sits in the rack where it's been for 4-5 years and occasionally I'll record something with it as backup insurance. But mostly it collects dust, mainly because I have 4 other QAM/ATSC tuners attached to various Macs around our house and I'm also lucky that I have a Comcast SA3250 with an active firewire port--which means not only can I record the network stuff but also things like Universal HD, ESPN-HD, USA-HD etc. and even most Comcast HD On Demand, like 'Sons of Anarchy' and 'Mad Men' in HD.

Like many fellow 3410A owners, I initially offloaded from the HDD to a DVHS deck, but always found that tedious. Once I experimented by bringing a Mac into the process, and could get high def onto hard drives, moving it around over gigabit to other Macs or simply leaving archived content on external drives, all unencumbered, I knew that was the way to go for me.

It seems to me that it should be possible, at least in theory, to dump programs from the 3410A to a computer with a firewire port

It's fairly easy to a Mac--you use the same capture software with the LG3410A that you'd use to capture from an STB--though the LG has a quirk built-in that it likes to be the only firewire device attached, rather than one of several devices daisychained (as Mac users typically do.)

I've heard rumours that Mac's can do this with 3410a...

Fact, not rumor, for years now.

There were a couple programs that were talking about Windows access (Can't remember their names, and I don't recall hearing much about them recently)...I'd love to be able to do this.... I'll take it to a higher level...I'd PAY to be able to achive programs on and off the 3410a to a Windows box...Of course I posted something simelar about 2 years ago...

When you posted this 2 years ago Jan, the advice you probably got then still applies: it's MUCH easier to do this with a Mac. What should also be mentioned is that the Mac you use to archive/offload doesn't have to be a new expensive Intel Mac--many older and very inexpensive Macs can capture over firewire perfectly. I use an old dual G4 MDD tower that I picked up for $250, with firewire 800, gigabit and 4 old PATA hard drives inside. (Older, even less expensive models work, too.) Once you capture the stream, you can then move the file anywhere you want over your network, even to a PC.

Playback is what takes the power--capture over firewire is pretty effortless.

You can record to a Mac over firewire...The bad news is that it's difficult (at least for me) to convert the files to HD-DVD or Blu-Ray format using Mac software, so I wind up storing the files "as-is" as mpeg2 files. If you had an Intel Mac, you could use the Mac OS side to get the program to a hard disc and then use the Windows side for the transcoding, etc.

I found it difficult, too, and originally just kept what I archived off the 3410A as-is and played them back with VLC. And I'll just repeat that PPC, rather than just Intel Macs, can get the program to a hard disk--which means if you're a 3410A owner more comfortable as a Windows user, odds are you can get your hands on a dirt cheap old Mac to capture/archive, then use Windows software to edit and transcode like wilsonsoohoo advises.

Originally Posted by wilsonsoohoo
If I want to archive something, I usually go from the 3410a to dVHS.

Same here. And I have a Mac. I forget the Mac program but it's easy to get.

VirtualDVHS in the FireWireSDK and FireRecord are two that I've used--and I've been using FireRecord exclusively for a while now. Since I haven't actually used my 3410A in quite a while, after reading the last page of this thread I just tested this using a Macbook w/ Leopard--connected the LG over firewire, turned the LG on, tuned to CBS-HD, opened FireRecord, recorded the live stream, which I then played back easily with VLC.

I've managed to dump to HD-DVD using a Mac. It takes forever, and unless you re-encode everything, you end up with all sorts of hiccups and sync problems. I haven't come across a situation since then that I considered the operation worth the trouble.

I reached sort of the same conclusion--after fiddling around and experimenting--what I do now is use Handbrake to transcode to 1280 x 720 H.264 (if it's something I really want to keep) or for the Apple TV.

There are a number of programs that will transfer D-VHS recordings to a PC so you could do it as a two-step process.

This is also why I originally wanted to get away from D-VHS altogether, each step of the process--record to LG HDD, transfer to D-VHS--was in real time so twice as long. Then once you got it on a computer, several hours more to transcode. I found it much nicer if you just get it on the computer to begin with.

For future recordings it might be more practical to get a digital tuner for the PC.

Agreed, even though I haven't yet parted with my sometimes-clunky, sometimes prickly LG3410, once El Gato added QAM support to their EyeTV ATSC-only tuner model, back in January 2005, I knew the handwriting was on the wall.

With the mods done to the 3 3410a's we have: (Locking the Channel, Power supply, firmware, Editing of the TVG List, powered by UPS), I rarely have any issues any more.... How I wish I had this information when I first got it!!

Checked the scope again today.... Still nothing in VBI except CC (Closed Captioning).

It's unfortunate that a simple, easy efficient way of file transfer was never developed for the PC.... I guess it's part of the Hollywood paranoia.

Version 7 or V9?? :confused:

I currently have two devices that show V8.

I've heard that there are some V8 DVR's, but these were built in units inside LCD displays....

But I've Never heard of any 3410a's that had anything other than V7 TVG, or any other LG DVR with greater than V7 in them.

If you've got one, it's unique!

Post a pic if you've got one!

The Sony's DVR's have V8.

Mit's DLP's have V8 also.

Then this V7 is the previous version that was never updated.

Yes, the 3410A had the same V7 guide all through it's production.

Lots of other TV's and recorders have had the V8 and V9 guides, and many recorders have had mostly the V7 and V8, but a few even had V9 before they stopped making them with TVGOS. I've had or have at least 6 displays and recorders with one of the 3 versions. The newer Sony LCD's with V9 even receive the digital signal.

Hi Ram,

The digital signal from where? (OTA?)

Both OTA and cable, I believe. jjeff over in the DVD Recorders forum (active right now as we speak actually, if you want to ask him about it) has one of the newer Sony's, and he's getting it digitally OTA (only 24 hrs. worth at a time, though).

What version do the new Mit's have?

If they're new, it should be the 9th. As far as I know, that's still the newest.