I thought participants in this thread would be interested that, in the Sony thread, Ken H has said that the TVGOS developers he is in touch with say that devices that have both analog and digital tuners that presently get their data from analog stations will - with the software that TVGOS is working on - be able to get their data from digital TVGOS broadcasts:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15263587&postcount=13237

This claim (as well as others) greatly surprised me, so I asked him for clarification on his statement(s):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15265031&postcount=13240

You can see his overall response here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15265927&postcount=13242

Among other things he says, in response to what I said about the 3410a,
"Any previous TVGOS device that has both a digital and analog tuner will be able to see the TVGOS data from the digital CBS channel in their area. These units will function just like they were designed to when the TVGOS signal was only available from analog PBS (or other analog) channels."

I am skeptical that this generalization applies to the 3410a, but would be happy of course to learn that all our previous concerns (and, I might add, efforts) about this issue turn out to have been unnecessary.

I'm curious, of course, to hear what others make of this claim...

(I went on to indicate how his less specific claim that "Again, and again, and again; the fix will make the existing analog station dependent TVGOS devices work as they were designed to and as they did previously. No other device or hardware is needed" led to substantial confusion.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15266550&postcount=13247)

Tony

By the way, my 3410a has now gotten something like 12 days of listings continuously, with no intervention, i.e., ever since they locally cleared up the v8 screwup that began a few days before Thanksgiving! I hope THAT behavior continues, too!

I can tell you I'm looking at a scope showing the VBI of a TR40 in TVG mode right now.... as I type this...

At present, I see CC on Line 21, and all there other VBI lines are at 0IRE.

Come on, guys!! Throw the switch!!!!

Brief (well sort of) description of my situation- BTW I’m in Ft. Myers FLA market and OTA only.
Went away for 11/18 – 12/6. Arrived home to find NO LISTINGS all days.
Did unplug/ plug back in (5 Min). Now it set me to 11/22 listings!!??
I set correct time manually and recorded OK manually. Still does.
Mine is one Jan rebuilt and its been perfect. I did 1st birthday and let it hunt - got no channel lineup (and of couse no listings). EZ-scan worked fine.
I was getting TVGOS data from ABC channel 26. Host channel remains 0:0 through all of this since my return.

Then it occurred to me my unit’s OK but TVGOS data gone??!! Looked at Ft. Myers (FLA) broadcast thread and found no discussion of TVGOS data issues.

So I decided to see if TVGOS data had been switched to our Digital CBS station- Physical 9 displays 11 (VHF). BTW my Sony ran fine through my absence and currently still gets TVGOS updates. AND I did NOTHING to switch it to receive data from a digital channel.

Ran 753159852 test on my Sony HDD250, and got the following (not inclusive):
1st screen
"08.01.42/08.06.44/" followed by some 0's (I assume this is the TVGOS version info)

2nd screen (among many other lines of data)
HOST STATE 0X80
forgot to writedown 0X57
HOST CHANNEL 0:0-11
VBI CHANNEL 0:11-1
DOES THIS MEAN MY SONY DATA IS COMING FROM 11-1? (mY cbs STATION)

I guess it could be V8 and yet no v7!?
THEN pulled out my DTVPal (SW version F101tcgh) and followed it's instructions
AND the LG manual, too. Used the pseudo zip for my market.
IR blaster/ emitter connected to 3410 and aimed at DTVPal for all tests
(DTVPal green light blinking -tells me the LG is trying)
Attempt 1 - coax from DTVPal connected to ANT IN port of 3410
Attempt2 - antenna to 3410 ANT IN port (got my digital stations back) and
DTVPal coax to cable in port.
No success.
Haven't tried AV1 jack though manual says TVGOS can get in that way?!
Haven't tried Jan's recommendation awhile back to use "channel inserter" - don't have one but I'll do whatever to get the convenience of TVGOS back.

Thank goodness I can set the clock and still record "manually".
I've read where some folks units wouldn't even allow that!

Greatly appreciate any suggestions as to a next step. Also a source to find out FOR SURE if the TVGOS data was terminated on my analog source and commenced on a digital source???

FWIW,

I have again lost the listings for my 3 units. It has been almost 3 weeks since I saw a listing. My two Motorola 3416's continue to operate perfectly.

Hi Fred!!!

If you know where your VBI is coming from, why don't you force TVG to find it there?

This way, You'll know in 5 minutes if there is VBI there or not....

I'm at work, and don't have the textfile of procedure, but it is here somwhere...

At least you'll find out in 5 min or so if VBI info is there.

4. To force host channel if known: (courtesy albertso)
“The code 963214785 (Force Host Channel) will lock the Host channel to the channel in use when activated? There is some danger in using it though. Getting away from this selected channel requires a COMPLETE hardware reset, at least it did in my case. Here is the procedure:
1). Tune to the station, either OTA or Cable that you want to set as host.
2). Go to GUIDE and use the same process that you do to get the diag screen (753...).
3). Enter 963214785. If accepted the message box below will change to "Searching Current VBI Channel." The screen should go away by itself after 5 minutes or so. Wait for it...
4). Turn off overnight and see if the guide info downloads. The 753159852 diag screen should now show the channel you set (right or wrong!!!) when you check it. If you got it right and the channel is carrying the data, the guide should start to fill.”

I know that there is SOMEWHERE a brief summary of these procedures for the 3410a...they AREN'T all the same as for the Sony (which, for example, as a procedure called the G* test), and I was wanting to check something, but put it off because of not knowing where this info was

Anyway, could we persuade the powers that be to add a link to that summary in the first post of the thread or something like that???

Thanks - Tony

PS: I see no one has had a reaction as yet to the claim that all TVGOS units that have both analog and digiital tuners will make the digital transition on their own!

OK...now I'm spooked - I just checked my host channel, and it's given as 0x5, 5 being the local CBS station.

I realize I'm not certain how to read the "5", because - and this is what's spooky - of the conjunction of 2 things (both of which I mentioned above in this thread):

1 - two weeks ago, I started getting solid TVGOS listings, no omission and no need for resets, etc; and

2 - yesterday, as indicated in a long post above, I learned that Ken H had been told by reliable sources at Gemstar that units with both analog and digital tuners would transition without intervention by us or use of an external device.

I didn't believe that, thinking somebody just wasn't thinking about the 3410a when they said that.

But now here I am (I THINK) getting my listings from CBS, but WHICH CBS-analog or digital???

Any thoughts?

thanks - Tony

PS: As I ALSO mentioned above, my 3410a listings have been solid beginning at the same time that problems my Sony 250 had been having for a week or so got resolved, and I thought maybe when someone fixed THAT problem, they also fixed whatever was messing up listings for my 3410a.

At that time, I DID check the Sony host channel, and it was still 0x9, 9 being our PBS station...it never occurred to me then to check what host my 3410a was using...next time I go downstairs, I guess I'll check the Sony again, to see if anything has changed there.

(On the Sony thread there have recently been a host of problems (pun intended) in numerous cities, with people not getting listings, or people suddenly getting listings back, but the diagnostic screen not showing ANY host channel...very screwy stuff.)

PPS: I did check my Sony, and it still shows 9 (PBS) as the host channel...

Tony,
Here is a short list (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13453320&postcount=5019) I put together back on page 168. It would be nice to get a sticky or put a faq together. Remember host channels on the 3410a are always given in hex and must be converted to decimal. In your case 0x5 does equal channel 5. However, you must know who is using that frequency now and in what manner (analog/digital). And whether or not there will be frequency re-assignments after the cut-off date. The VHF/UHF spectrum will be re-ordered again for some stations in many markets post cut-off date.

I'm not holding my breath, but would welcome a miracle provided by gemstar. :)

Get consensus & put together what you want the first post to look like, PM me when it's done, and I can take care of it.

I cannot take credit for 1, 2, or 3. This is stuff I got from the LG help line, years ago...
I will take credit for the Power supply upgrade, though...
John T. from CBS should get credit for the UPS idea, and
Albertso gets credit for the Lock channel info...
Power supply upgrade:
Replace C128 & C129 with 2200/25v 105 Degree Low ESR
Replace C125 & C126 with 2200/25v 105 Degree Low ESR
Replace C122 & C124 with 2200/25v 105 Degree Low ESR
Replace C127 with 3300/16v 105 Degree Low ESR
Add additional wire: From Transformer T101 pin 18 to D128 Anode. (this adds a short across existing trace--improves a potential intermittant connection, does not change circuit design)

Tony,
Here is a short list (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=13453320&postcount=5019) I put together back on page 168. It would be nice to get a sticky or put a faq together. Remember host channels on the 3410a are always given in hex and must be converted to decimal. In your case 0x5 does equal channel 5. However, you must know who is using that frequency now and in what manner (analog/digital). And whether or not there will be frequency re-assignments after the cut-off date. The VHF/UHF spectrum will be re-ordered again for some stations in many markets post cut-off date.

I'm not holding my breath, but would welcome a miracle provided by gemstar. :)
with respect to the channel numbers on the host (or vbi) channel, does the LG show any in the form (for example) 5.1? I'm pretty sure the Sony DOES, but it occurs to me that the LG may not...the way you frame your comment suggests to me that the LG does NOT use .1

When I get a chance, I'm going to print out the CURRENT channel assignments for our area (that's kept up-to-date by a guy who is on our local general OTA thread)...

As for how to get the info in your post up front, I'd be happy if a note is put at the top of the first post in the thread that says something like:

Note: Some undocumented features and tips (as well as some that are documented) are listed in the following post - POINTER to your post

You would then be able to edit is as needed.

Tony,
Remember host channels on the 3410a are always given in hex and must be converted to decimal. In your case 0x5 does equal channel 5. However, you must know who is using that frequency now and in what manner (analog/digital).
I realize I'm puzzled, because it seems to me that for the Sony the host channel and vbi channel report the virtual channel number, e.g., 5 or 5.1, etc, and I think that the 3410a must do the same, although - given the fact that it apparently pays attention only to analog channels for host channel purposes, I don't know what it would do with the number 5.1 in the event that Gemstar did mange to get this unit to get data from a digital channel...

I think I'm going to ask this question via TVGOS support - not that it's clear at all that they can answer a question about a specific unit OR what's happening with TVGOS in a specific metro area...
Tony

The TVGOS information transmitted by Boston-area Fox affiliate analog WFXT-TV has been unavailable since Monday. My 3410A is not detecting any other source for this info. According to another AVS thread, their transmitter died completely within the past few days and, given the short period between now and the analog shutdown in February, will not be repaired and is off the air for good. I don't know if the loss of TVGOS info occurred before their analog transmitter died completely or as a direct result of same.

In any event, does anyone know if another Boston station has assumed the broadcast of TVGOS info during the interregnum between now and the analog shutdown in February? In most markets, the local PBS affiliate will broadcast TVGOS info after the shutdown, but given WGBH's poor technology track record and the fact that they never carried TVGOS on their analog signal, one can't assume that will happen in the Boston market.

In most markets, the local PBS affiliate will broadcast TVGOS info after the shutdown, but given WGBH's poor technology track record and the fact that they never carried TVGOS on their analog signal, one can't assume that will happen in the Boston market.
I assume you mean before, since it's CBS digital that will have TVGOS AFTER the shutdown...

I am getting 0x0 for a host and PWR Failed. I guess Comcast Annapolis as stopped transmitting anything. I have my antenna pointing towards DC but you can not get analog 26 at the same time as cable channels. Have to get analog via re-transmit on the cable channels. I have the PBS and CBS Analog cable Channels on 13 and 22. Mo cigar. Sad.

Regarding my unit's puzzling switch to CBS San Francisco...playing with looking at the diagnostic menu for host and vbi channel when on 5 versus 5.1, it's clear that the host channel is 5 analog AND that this unit represents 5.1 as 1401, but why 1401??? The Sony represents this as 5.1...

I don't get it, but it seems clear that 5 gives me better listings (solid for the last 2 weeks) than PBS did (screwing up since May). And someone in the north bay area who I've been in touch with now has the host channel as 0X0 and is getting only partial listings, but I know from his last post that he has cable, though I don't know if that's exclusively..

Still puzzled...

Tony,
I must admit I do not understand the way the 3410a maps virtual channel numbers, but there is apparently something taking place. My virtual channels are 4.1, 5.1, 9.1, 13.1 and 25.1. When tuned to them and looking at vbi channel data they are given as 1001, 1401, 2401, 3401, and 6401 respectively. These numbers when converted from hex yields decimal numbers with the first two digits being significant and pointing to the correct virtual channel. Not the actual channel number currently tuned (which is what I was expecting). It does seem strange. Significant or not? I certainly don't know.

I would take it as a good sign that your local CBS is tooling up their gemstar data system in advance.

Tony,

I would take it as a good sign that your local CBS is tooling up their gemstar data system in advance.
What is strange is that this is CBS ANALOG that I'm now getting the data from.

I've know for a long time that CBS 5.1 has been broadcasting the digital TVGOS data, because some months ago, as an experiment, I followed a procedure with my Sony that forced a download of ALL 8 DAYS of TVGOS data overnight with the unit still powered up. (With the Sony, doing this does not change the host channel, which remained - and still is - PBS 9 analog.)

I am surprised that CBS had done anything at all with respect to ANALOG transmission of the data (at least of the v7 data).

Wow, SOMETHING is going on... In past 3 days I've had MULTIPLE Prompts where I had to RE-Select the channel lists here.... On ALL 3 DVR's....

Just to make sure, I've Re-Locked all 3 DVR's to 7-0 here in Chicago...

Looking at the scope hanging on the TR 40, no TVG Data on 2-1 in TVG mode....
But I've never had Multiple DVR's request that I re-select Cable Channel lists on multiple days before...

Something is going on.... Time to ask what....

Jan,

Up until 2 weeks ago, I was getting that request almost daily for a week here in Annapolis, MD. Now, it appears Comcast has blocked or dropped the TVGOS 7 data because both of my 3410's have had No Listing showing for weeks. I've been having to set the time manually for about the same time period. The two MOT 3416's continue to display TVGOS data perfectly. I may disconnect the 3410's from the cable and use them exclusively for OTA but every time the wind blows or the rain pours, ghosting destrys my digital signal. Can't win for losing.

Art,

COMCAST MOCO had dropped the data a while back. I went to OTA on analog 26. Still get solid listings on my 3410. Absolutely unable to get anything on the CBS affiliate, but as I mentioned above, they do not think the data is coming in on their feed yet.

Albertso,

Do you set it up for Cable and no box? Then after waiting for digital OTA to download, do you tell it to use 26? I am trying to find out how you get the cable listings from OTA 26.

Hi Art,

No, I use "No Cable". COMCAST strips the VBI TVGOS info from the cable signal. I use OTA channel 26 to get it.

I lock to Channel 26 by being tuned to it and inputting 963214785 at the "Messages" menu.

2 of my 3 3410a's requested cable channel list confirmation again tonight..

SOMETHING is going on.... I've NEVER seen this type of activity before....

No extra VBI on TVG boot of the TR-40 though...

2 of my 3 3410a's requested cable channel list confirmation again tonight..

SOMETHING is going on.... I've NEVER seen this type of activity before....

No extra VBI on TVG boot of the TR-40 though...


Jan,

In case I did not mention it earlier. I had multiple cble channel list confirmation requests, 6 or 7, for a week before I completely lost program info. Now, my Guide (white light) stays on continuously. I prefer to get the cable channels to the TVGOS data. I record using the timer now. Quite a lot more predictable this way.

I'm getting data, LOTS OF DATA!!! it just keeps asking me to select a Cable list... There are 7 lists now that I have to select from....
There's never been that many selections!! That's why I'm saying "Something" is going on!!!!

Each time, the frist day I get cable channel logos, the 2nd day I get OTA Logos...
So I have to wait for the 2nd day, and then edit the lists... to re-direct to OTA channels on the 2nd OTA Logos!!!
I've never seen this much Calble list data before... Something is going on...

Thank Goodness for the wife to be so forgiving to allow the scope to be in the living room.... So I can monitor the TR-40!

Art, I'd suggest you trying to LOCK the TVG Channel if you know where it is!!!

I'm getting data, LOTS OF DATA!!! it just keeps asking me to select a Cable list... There are 7 lists now that I have to select from....So select one already! :)

Done that, for the past few days! SOMETHING is going on... Don't kow what, but I'm getting data.. I'm trying to find out what is going on.. Hope it has something to do with the TR-40 data on 2-1. If it ever starts there, I'm ready to test it!!!

I think I have an idea why I was getting so many Cable channel Lists..
In the past, when I got a Cable channel list, when I selected the list that matches our area, I'd instantly get the cable channel Icons. The Next Day, I'd get a second group of Icons, which were the Local Cable HD channels.
It was these logos the 2nd day group, that I would edit to 're-direct' to OTA HD channels. For example WLS-DT1 was re-directed from channel 189 to 7-1. This changed it from WLS-DT1 from Cable to WLS-DT1 from OTA.

I believe the changes in the Cable lists were channel changes, Changing the channel numbers from Cable Channel numbers to OTA Channel numbers, and the first couple times they sent them, they were not 100% correct. I noticed not all were OTA numbers yet, so I'm guessing that they sent so many because of the errors in the list.

In the past 2 days, all 3 of my 3410a's have automatically given me proper OTA channel numbers, without my re-directing them... All I had to do was re-organize them to the top of the TVG list...

Now all they have to do is turn on the TVG Data on the TR-40 Boxes...............

This was the first evening in about 5 days where a 3410 wasn't waiting to prompt me to select a cable channel list.... It seems to have quieted down....
and all is solid...... I checked scope (TR-40), nothing other than CC on Line 21.

Sunday PM 12-21-08 Still solid..

My LG 3410A can't utilize the available CBS channel's digital source. Of all the TVGOS devices only the Sony HDD500's advanced TVGOS still works.

---

In many ways the 3410A is now a more stable machine. Since it no longer accesses guide data, TVGOS is no longer a flakey option and the dreaded RESERVE light no longer comes on to create Catch 22 style problems. The clock can now easily be reset manually, and I leave the 3410A on 24/7 as a tuner and manual recorder.

The only quirk the 3410A still exhibits is that when it's tuned to the PBS hi-def channel it often, usually only during primetime, switches the actual channel being received to ABC's hi-def channel, which is another subchannel of the same channel number. This always occurs exactly on the hour and when it occurs the 3410A still displays the PBS subchannel info. Any channel changing resets the PBS channel for at least an hour.

Joe,

That is excatly what I am doing. I use them as overflow devices.

The only quirk the 3410A still exhibits is that when it's tuned to the PBS hi-def channel it often, usually only during primetime, switches the actual channel being received to ABC's hi-def channel, which is another subchannel of the same channel number. This always occurs exactly on the hour and when it occurs the 3410A still displays the PBS subchannel info. Any channel changing resets the PBS channel for at least an hour.

Mine does pretty much the same thing. My Fox affiliate has an SD subchannel that the 3410 will switch to several times during recording :mad:.

The only quirk the 3410A still exhibits is that when it's tuned to the PBS hi-def channel it often, usually only during primetime, switches the actual channel being received to ABC's hi-def channel, which is another subchannel of the same channel number. This always occurs exactly on the hour and when it occurs the 3410A still displays the PBS subchannel info. Any channel changing resets the PBS channel for at least an hour.Let me guess: this happens exactly when the local PBS station IDs itself. Mine used to run PBS-HD continuously except for a local ID between programs. At the time they were unable to generate 1080i locally, even to upconvert a 480i source (they can now) so they actually switched from 1080i to 480i and back again. My 3410A didn't like that at all. It didn't change subchannels (I was watching OTA, not cable) but it would blank out for a few seconds an often came up on the wrong aspect ratio.

I think I've seen spontaneous subchannel changes on cable a couple of times on legitimate channels, but I saw it a lot when surfing the VOD channels before they encrypted them. Those channels come and go, and if I was watching one when another started on the same RF channel the LG might switch to the new one.

The TVGOS information transmitted by Boston-area Fox affiliate analog WFXT-TV has been unavailable since Monday. My 3410A is not detecting any other source for this info. According to another AVS thread, their transmitter died completely within the past few days and, given the short period between now and the analog shutdown in February, will not be repaired and is off the air for good. I don't know if the loss of TVGOS info occurred before their analog transmitter died completely or as a direct result of same.

Correcton to above: the WFXT analog was briefly off the air, but is currently back on with greatly reduced power. In any event, I can't receive it OTA, but only through Comcast. I contacted Comcast and, after fighting my way through several levels of tech support, learned that several weeks ago they dropped WFXT's analog feed (which perhaps was no longer available to them, given the above information) from which I was getting my TVGOS, and substituted the feed from WFXT digital, which does not have TVGOS information, running it through a DA converter, and sending it out through their analog cable system. FWIIW, there doesn't seem to be much improvement in PQ over the previous analog source, which is no great surprise.

Also, they informed me that, between now and the February analog shutdown, they are one at a time dropping the analog stations and substituting the digital station with DA conversion for their analog cable customers. So it is not a matter of stripping TVGOS subcarrier information, as some posters have speculated, but rather substituting DA-converted digital feeds on an staggered basis.

In any event, does anyone know if another Boston station has assumed the broadcast of TVGOS info during the interregnum between now and the analog shutdown in February? In most markets, the local CBS affiliate will broadcast TVGOS info after the shutdown.

OK, here is an update to my original question. Although historically I haven't had much luck getting useful info from the engineering departments of our local broadcasters, I did in fact write our local CBS affiliate WBZ yesterday and, much to my amazement, got an immediate reply back from the director of broadcast operations informing me that they are indeed currently broadcasting TVGOS information on their digital program stream.

Unfortunately, my LG 3410A doesn't recognize this info, either directly from the WBZ OTA HD stream or indirectly from the QAM digital cable stream from Comcast. However, in a follow-up exchange from WBZ's engineering chief, he confirmed my hope that the DTV TR-40 will indeed convert and pass through TVGOS info from their digital feed through its analog output. So if he knows what he is talking about and this really works, the TR-40 can possibly be used as a front end for the LG 3410A and give it a new lease on life. I would prefer this solution to using the new TR-50 DVR, which has no external archiving capability. Stay tuned [ahem] for further developments.

The information about CBS DTV and the TR-40 is correct.... (Also, be advised that 3410a's cannot retrieve TVG off DTV signals).
I'm presently monitoring the situation here in Chicago.... I've mixed the CH3 output of TR40 into my cable feed, and once I detect TVG Data in VBI of video output of TR-40 (I have a dedicated scope on it, that I turn on now and then to check for data in VBI)
THEN, ONCE I RECEIVE TVG DATA, then I'll lock one of the 3410a's to CH3 (TR-40) and post results........

However, be advised that though the software was supposed to be ready be Mid August, it has been repeatedly delayed..... Once they "TURN IT ON" then we'll know pretty soon.... as there are a few of us watching and waiting for it...

P.S. From what I've heard, when they 'turn it on' that will happen nationwide....

P.P.S. The repeated Cable list sendings that I encountered a couple weeks ago has ceased, and may have had something to do with this, as the OTA channels (Whch show up a day after cable channels via TVG) now report OTA channels, not Cable Box Channels...

The information about CBS DTV and the TR-40 is correct.... (Also, be advised that 3410a's cannot retrieve TVG off DTV signals).
I'm presently monitoring the situation here in Chicago.... I've mixed the CH3 output of TR40 into my cable feed, and once I detect TVG Data in VBI of video output of TR-40 (I have a dedicated scope on it, that I turn on now and then to check for data in VBI)
THEN, ONCE I RECEIVE TVG DATA, then I'll lock one of the 3410a's to CH3 (TR-40) and post results........

However, be advised that though the software was supposed to be ready be Mid August, it has been repeatedly delayed..... Once they "TURN IT ON" then we'll know pretty soon.... as there are a few of us watching and waiting for it...

P.S. From what I've heard, when they 'turn it on' that will happen nationwide....

P.P.S. The repeated Cable list sendings that I encountered a couple weeks ago has ceased, and may have had something to do with this, as the OTA channels (Whch show up a day after cable channels via TVG) now report OTA channels, not Cable Box Channels...

Hi Jan,

FWIW, my 3 always showed OTA channels 2 days after the original overnight download. Still is happening. You will recall I am on Comcast cable, Annapolis and dhave an outdoor OTA whichh of late has been havinga lot of trouble with local digitals. Not sur whether I am overloading the front end of fthe 3410A's but i have the same amount of padding that i have always used.

On Comcast cable here, too, Art...

Here's a Note on LG3100 SD/HD Tuner....

Just given one that is stuck in "Hello" mode....

It ended up being Power supply caps...
I don't have a schematic on the 3100, and the supply is simelar but not as big as the 3410a, but I did the same thing I've successfully done with 3410a power supplies:
All First and second caps on every supply on secondary of switching supplies were changed.... Some measured quite 'dry' on the ESR meter. Also changed one on primary side, a 47uf cap, showing signs of drying out.. In each, used 105 degree caps, and went one or two voltage ranges above what was in there... 10v caps received 25v caps. 16v caps received 35v caps, etc...
Powered right up and has been working fine all morning long.....

Some measured quite 'dry' on the ESR meter."Dry"?? Explain.

ESR Means Equivalent Series Resistance.
It is a function of the condition of the electrolyte within an electrolytic capacitor.
As the Electrolyte dries out, the overall efficiency of the capacitor decreases.
Take the case in point that I mentioned above:

A 1000uf capacitor when new acts like a 1000uf capacitor... which is pretty obvious...
However, when the electrolytic dries out, it looses efficiency and acts like less than 1000uf of capacitance.
I've seen it vary to as low as 20uf, which means it is acting like a far smaller cap, and therefore doesn't do it's job.
When dry, the capacitor will heat up more as well, and that's why caps can swell and leak, as they warm up.

Obviously, either of these actions are detremental to the operation of the circuitry...
Hope that's clear.

The information about CBS DTV and the TR-40 is correct.... (Also, be advised that 3410a's cannot retrieve TVG off DTV signals).
I'm presently monitoring the situation here in Chicago.... I've mixed the CH3 output of TR40 into my cable feed, and once I detect TVG Data in VBI of video output of TR-40 (I have a dedicated scope on it, that I turn on now and then to check for data in VBI)
THEN, ONCE I RECEIVE TVG DATA, then I'll lock one of the 3410a's to CH3 (TR-40) and post results........

However, be advised that though the software was supposed to be ready be Mid August, it has been repeatedly delayed..... Once they "TURN IT ON" then we'll know pretty soon.... as there are a few of us watching and waiting for it...

P.S. From what I've heard, when they 'turn it on' that will happen nationwide....

P.P.S. The repeated Cable list sendings that I encountered a couple weeks ago has ceased, and may have had something to do with this, as the OTA channels (Whch show up a day after cable channels via TVG) now report OTA channels, not Cable Box Channels...


I will anxiously await your experience. I have been working back and forth between the LG 3410A manual and the TR-40 manual, trying to figure out how the latter provides TVGOS info to the former. I may have run into a connectivity problem, however. What I would like to do, ideally, is keep my OTA digital antenna connected to the 3410A antenna input, my analog + digital cable connected to the cable input, and the TR-40 composite video plus stereo outputs connected to AV1 on the LG. According to the LG manual, TVGOS pass-through only works with the AV1 input and not with AV2. However, if you activate AV1 in the LG menus, it apparently deactivites the RF cable input -- it is an either/or situation. So if I want to use the TR-40 as a front end to provide TVGOS, I will lose the ability to use my cable feed, since the TR-40 has no cable capability. I am hoping there is a way around this; perhaps mixing the Channel 3 RF output of the TR-40 (which presumably carries TVGOS info) with the analog/digital cable source, as you have proposed, and not using the AV1 inputs will solve this problem.

Jan J; I just never heard the term 'dry' used when measuring a cap.

Happy Ner Year to ALL.

Jan/3/2009.. Nothing but CC in VBI of the DTV PAL (TR-40) booted in TVG Mode.

Eieio

Right after Thanksgiving, I was pleased to discover that listings had come back solid after months of trouble and partial listings. I subsequently noticed that my host station had switched to our local CBS station, which I found puzzling.

A week or 10 days before Christmas, things started getting patchy again, still with the CBS host, and by the weekend before Christmas, I had gotten no listings for days. I did a short unplug-replug just before going away for a couple of weeks.

When I got back last night, the guide wouldn't even come up, so I did an unplug-replug. I then got the guide, but with no listings for any of the 8 days. AND the host channel had switched back to PBS. I did another unplug-replug, just for good measure, and left it overnight. This AM, I had listings for days 1,2,3,8. Host channel is still PBS.

Are others having patchy listings along with host channel switches like this???

(FYI, my Sony 250, has been fairly solid through this period, except for obvious lapses around Thanksgiving, and maybe a couple of days lost before Christmas, but with a full 8 days on my return, and despite the switches on my 3410a, the Sony has continued to get its listings from PBS...)

No listings in DC/Baltimore area for months

Art,

Still getting listings OTA from WETA 26. Not on COMCAST though.

Still getting listings OTA from WYCC 20 in Chicago for my v7 guide on my Panasonic E85H. Don't have Comcast, though.

So that proves that somebody's still sending the v7 data out in the Chicago market OTA.

I am certain that Comcast has stopped broadcasting the V7 data. Frankly, the 3410A is much more reliable using the timers.

If I may ask to break away from the TVGOS questions, I was orginally considering purchasing one of these, but after a reading through some of the early posts, namely the 'chroma delay' issue with analog channels, that made it a deal breaker for me since analog still accounts for the majority of what I record (though less now than a couple of years ago). So, can I assume the 'analog chroma delay' issue was not resolved? Starting here (thanks to Jan J's keen eyes);
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=5143498&postcount=2224

One other major issue was excessive heat buildup apparently causing lockups (which shouldn't of been hard to correct with better ventilation).
Other than the above, has anyone been able to confirm TVGOS working with digital channels?

I put 3/8" extentions on the feet, and never encountered any heat issues.
I put a fan in one for grins, but when bearing went on fan, removed it.

I think the heat issues were power supply issues. I've done maybe 10-12 power supply upgrades, on 3410a's and maybe 6-8 on other LG products of the same vintage, and never had one fail afterward..

Then the downsides of this unit are;
1. No CC slot,
2. The previousely mentioned 'analog chroma delay' problem,
3. Questionable TVGOS compatability with a digital channel source.

Then the downsides of this unit are;
1. No CC slot,
2. The previousely mentioned 'analog chroma delay' problem,
3. Questionable TVGOS compatability with a digital channel source.

4. Earlier generation ATSC receiver - particularly persnickety about signal overloads
5. DVI handshake problems with certain newer AV receivers
6. General rampant flakiness

Upsides:
1. Particularly gorgeous ATSC pictures
2. Firewire out, with the ability to archive to DVHS or a software-based equivalent
3. Upgradeable hard drive

This thing isn't for everybody. You have to decide if it's for you. Please note that any problem you you may have with 'analog chroma delay' will be just about moot in about a month. (Or, um, whenever ...)

Please note that any problem you you may have with 'analog chroma delay' will be just about moot in about a month.Not if your programming is also from analog cable. :rolleyes:
Guess no one records analog OTA or cable channels with this.

Yes, the last two entries are the main selling points without a doubt. I'm sure the "gorgeous ATSC pictures" are just as "gorgeous" as with any other HD DVR.

Not if your programming is also from analog cable. :rolleyes:
Guess no one records analog OTA or cable channels with this.

Yes, the last two entries are the main selling points without a doubt. I'm sure the "gorgeous ATSC pictures" are just as "gorgeous" as with any other HD DVR.

Cable is going 100% digital as fast as they can get the equipment installed. I stand by my statement.

And yes, there is a significant difference in picture quality among ATSC decoders, especially those of this vintage. This unit is among the best.

Actually, We use this for both analog recording off cable, and Digital recording OTA.

Analog recording has the YC delay issue, yes. Digital OTA recording is no different than watching Digital on the display.

The issue is TVG.... Once that is settled, I'll STILL use it for Analog cable recordings, as I've taken the HD cable box NTSC output, which downconverts HD programs as well, and modulated that on CH4, and mixed it back into the cable feed (After the box).

Looking at the TVG menu, I have a bunch of cable logo's set for Channel 4, all co-existing perfecly....

So even after February (or whenever.....) I'll still be using it for analog recordings!

Found out I can even record different cablebox channels back to back... Motorola cablebox has timed channel change feature in box.... So I can watch channel 131 from 3A-4A and program it to change channels to 205 at 4A.... and it works fine...
And the 3410a records two back to back channels off channel 4!

Cable is going 100% digital as fast as they can get the equipment installed.Maybe in the larger, upscale markets, but it will be some time before analog is gone completely, especially in this economic climate. I will stand by my statement.

When cable does go full digital most of those channels will be encrypted and the LG won't decode them, so if you want to use it to record them you'll have to use a cable box to convert to NTSC and you're still recording analog.

Yes, the last two entries are the main selling points without a doubt. I'm sure the "gorgeous ATSC pictures" are just as "gorgeous" as with any other HD DVR.

I don't know exactly why,but this LG has a particularly razor sharp picture.I have a fairly new Samsung 52A650 TV and the 3410 has an even better PQ than the build in tuner on the Samsung.I also have 2 Sony 500 DVR's and the LG has better PQ than those also(over DVI/HDMI only).

Upsides:
1. Particularly gorgeous ATSC pictures
2. Firewire out, with the ability to archive to DVHS or a software-based equivalent
3. Upgradeable hard driveDon't forget:

4. Manual clock setting

;)

Don't forget:

4. Manual clock setting

;)

And even more important,
5) Manual record setup (date, time, channel)

I'm hoping when the guide is gone, mine will be less flakey.

I didn't know it didn't record analog well. In over three years, I've never done that. Then again, why would I.

ebo; Thank you. Just another reason decent analog record ability is important in spite of other opinions. That is about as bad as saying the device can't record B&W programming correctly (for some reason or another).
I'm not a analog fan mind you, but this issue should of been addressed and I find it hard to believe there was only one member here that noticed it.

As bad as all the Mits TV owners that don't or can't see the "cropped analog issue" and the four members that told me there wasn't a issue anymore. :mad:

I can't believe someone hasn't been able to 'unlock' the Sony DVR so as to allow adding and/or replacing the HDD.

If it can be 'locked', it can be 'unlocked'.

Bruce Sony's always been propriety. Beta, MiniDisc, 250/500 HD DVR, the list goes on and on.

I understand this, but the previous post still applies. They aren't the only company that uses propritery technology. LG uses Zenith's propritery 8VSB decoder, but they allow HDD changes and the ability to use an external drive. ;)

Propritery is not the problem. Pure greed and control is. :mad:

And even more important,
5) Manual record setup (date, time, channel)I wouldn't say more important, You can't have 5) without 4). ;)

5) was just assumed. That was the reason I mentioned 4) - so you had that as a fallback to losing the guide (or as a chosen option).

It was meant partially as a comparison to the Sony DVR, which doesn't have that, and you're SOL without a time signal.

Parts request....

If anyone has an un-wanted 3410a, I've encountered someone with a bad main board....
The unit I have "for parts" has a bad main board, too, so I can't help him...

FYI - Ft. Myers FLA OTA only
Still nothing to report as to getting TVGOS to my 3410A but after much fiddling here’s how I think it works (tell me if I'm wrong). I’m now awaiting the arrival of digital TVGOS in my area and for someone to successfully jam it into our 3410A’s somehow. Prefer the DTVPal way because I’ve got one.

Step 1 - Analog TVGOS goes away (early in my case & others)
Step2 - The 3410A sees NO DATA, apparently it considers this a bigger issue than
NO LISTINGS perhaps because NOW it doesn't even have a channel lineup!
Step 3 - So one does a First Birthday (or other restart procedure)
Step 4 - 3410A comes up with NO CHANNELs, no data and of course no listings because there is no TVGOS out there to receive any more
Step5 - NOW we try to use it as VCR (set Time manually = OK, set timer record manually = OK)
Step6 - BUT when we power it off at night, as we used to, it blocks ALL ACCESS to TVGOS
(because it thinks IF there are NO stations then there can be no recording -
IE ALL recording is tied to TVGOS function)

AFTER many plug unplug cycles and a couple first b'days I now leave it ON ALL THE TIME so it can't "realize" that there are no stations.
BTW the tuner side of the unit still remembers all available stations which is why (I guess) we CAN use the tuner and do manual recording (JUST DON'T Turn it off and give it a chance to realize there are NO STATIONS! )

The only real question I have is, By NEVER turning the power off am I setting myself up for some other sort of problem?

Fred,

I imagine the hard drive, which runs continuously when it is "on", may die prematurely.

Fred... I wouldn't worry about the power supply, as you've got one of the upgraded power supplies of mine....

I wouldn't lose faith on some sort of TVG fix in the future....

Kind of sad after several years of daily postings the era of the 3410 is almost over. Hopefully we can still get these to work after the digital changeover by whatever means.

Kind of sad after several years of daily postings the era of the 3410 is almost over. Hopefully we can still get these to work after the digital changeover by whatever means.

Program it like a VCR, just like us old-timers used to do back in the dinosaur era. :)

It's not over yet....
Here's a few idea's to ponder.....

1. Looks like digital switchover is being delayed to June.
2. Cable companies will carry SD transmissions for another 3 years
3. Hopefully, the firmware fix will take place, and TVG will start Spitting out of the TR-40

But, if you decide to give up, by all means donate your system, working or non-working to others here, so we can keep them going!!

Hi Jan et al,

I'm in the DC area and can get no listings via the air from WETA 26 or from Comcast in Annapolis, MD. My 3 units operate but are not reliable. I use them for overflow time shifting.

Jan, perhaps a short set of instructions of how to keep these things working after 2/17 might be appropriate.

I intend to continue using mine without TVGOS. Seems to me that all one needs to do is run a scan for existing channels and then use the 3410A like a VCR. What is the big problem?

Hey Jan, What the cost to fix my firewire ports? One of them only works if it's loosely connected in the port and the other doesn't work at all.

I gave up using the 3410 and use Series 3 TiVo HD exclusively. It's worth the monthly subscription fee to have a stable system. I save HD programming after editing out the commercials with VideReDo software in .tivo format, and if I want to burn it to blu-ray, I save the file as a .mpg file. DVHS is no longer practicle now that you can burn HD to disc.

I gave up using the 3410 and use Series 3 TiVo HD exclusively. It's worth the monthly subscription fee to have a stable system. I save HD programming after editing out the commercials with VideReDo software in .tivo format, and if I want to burn it to blu-ray, I save the file as a .mpg file. DVHS is no longer practicle now that you can burn HD to disc.
I'd say that until there's a blu-ray recording unit (and I don't mean a computer that I have to fiddle with), a DVHS unit is the only HD recorder...

In fact I have to look around for some more DVHS tapes (for the rare occasions when I DO want to save something, in which case I record it on my 3410a, rather than my Sony 250)...

If anyone is interested, I have one of these (without a remote) that's in working order that I'm not using anymore. I have no idea what it's worth, so contact me via PM if interested.

And even more important,
5) Manual record setup (date, time, channel)

I'm hoping when the guide is gone, mine will be less flakey.

I can vouch for that one: since Verizon killed their analog cable feed, I haven't had a single "lock up" do to the TVGOS (since there isn't one)! Using this thing as a "dumb" VCR has extended it's life for years since you can define WHAT format (480p/720p/1080i) you want to send that great picture to your TV/projector/whatever in.

I imagine the hard drive, which runs continuously when it is "on", may die prematurely.

I don't know about you, but my 3410 isn't "on" but for a couple of hours a week (mainly to record FOX shows that overlap with my main DVR). I'm not even sure the HD is running when not recording, because it doesn't constantly cached data (live TV) like a regular DVR unless you hit "time shift".

Could not believe my eyes today. After 2 months without the guide working on the 3410A's, (I get signal via Roof ftop and Cable), I reset 1 of my 3 3410a"s to OTA only. It found WETA 26 ( Analog PBS in Wash DC), and received listings the next day. I am thrilled because in my $100K+ system, these offer the best overall signal to the downstream devices. I also own several 3416 MOT DVR's whose PQ can not compare to the LG's. Keeping these alive is really important I feel. We owners have developed a certain love-hate relationship with these things born out of early major QC issues in '03and '04. Later firmware almost made the units reliable when asked to perform advertised taks, Today, those of us lucky enough to own operating units can thank the early adopters who demanded resolution to failure modes. Also w nee to thank Jan for being out go to guy when all else fails. I hope to use mine until they change standards again.

For Powerful:

I've got a dead motherboard from my parts unit (Came from Florida) that I could remove the connections for the firewire ports for you if you want.... Assumeing that it is just the connections, and not the circuitry....

Would cost you only postage...

Thanks Jan. PM me with the details

I'll bring the motherboard to work tomorrow (Have better solder equipment there) where I can remove the Firewire mount from board during lunch....

I'm guessing $.75 should cover the postage.....
PM me where you want it shipped...

Jan

As long as I'm gonna be removing things, is anyone else interested in anything on the motherboard? I'm keeping the TVG board, and removing the Firewire ports for Powerful.
This motherboard had a liquid spilled by IC33, and crystals grew out of the liquid, shorting things....

I'll check the thread tomorrow before lunch....
Jan

I may have another mothreboard to strip in a couple weeks....

Still haven't seen anything in VBI from TR-40 in TVG mode.
Called a number I have from work, and was told it's still going to be implemented....
I asked if they are waiting for the switchover date, or hoping for June extention, or ______ ? and he answered 'neither, something else'.

As someone who has no inside knowledge concerning TVGOS or the TR-40, let me guess that "something else" can be translated as "it doesn't work, and we don't know how to fix it."

Lets be optimistic, something else means "We're conducting extensive software and hardware testing to make analog TVGOS the most reliable channel guide available." By the way, I just bought a new Sony flat screen TV. It has the newest digital version of TVGOS which after two weeks of use has been very stable, It's is a good thing too, since there is no way to do a "first birthday reset" on the TV to fix any glitches.

By the way, I just bought a new Sony flat screen TV. It has the newest digital version of TVGOS which after two weeks of use has been very stable...Only one or two days worth of guide info, I've heard from some people though, right?

Only one or two days worth of guide info, I've heard from some people though, right?

No, that is true only if the local CBS digital affiliate does not (yet) carry digital TVGOS, in which case the unit takes its guide information from PSIP. The unit is also smart enough to use TVGOS for any given station if available and interlace PSIP info for stations for which the TVGOS is not available, e.g., in another market. For stations with TVGOS, you get the full eight days of guide info, for stations with PSIP you get only a day or two.

Well I've heard from 2 different contacts in two months saying that it is close, so I'll put my bets on that.. Wife is getting used to the scope in the living room.... It's been there for what.... 5 months?

Don't know if this should be posted on this thread or not?
Anyhow, Heres whats been happening at my house (Cape Coral/FT MYERS FL, OTA only).
Bought a DTVPal DVR. It has its own set of problems but I find it usable. Just don't watch and record at the same time!

THIS note is about TVGOS Digital. The Pal DVR picked up the full 8 days right away (W/ TV guide logo on the screen).

Does this mean I'm receiving the Digital TVGOS?
One peculiarity is that of my 6 stations, ONE doesn't get the full 8 days and believe it or not - its the CBS affiliate (which I thought was the source for the entire TVGOS datastream).
That channel only gets 3 days of data which suspiciously sounds like PSIP data. Could this be?

Any how back to the 3410, I tried using my DTVPal tuner (not the DVR) as a TVGOS comverter and it didn't work.
I SET the 3410 analog channel list to 3 ONLY : set the DTVPal tuner to CBS digital only (11.1 here actual channel 9).
Plugged the coax out from PALtuner into the antenna in on the 3410. let it run for 48 hours and nothing nada zip.
Am I doing this right ? Do I need that "inserter" device Jan discussed awhile back?
The Pal DVR doesn't seem to have an access method to find the host channel.

Fred... There is only 3 ways you can determine if a DTVPAL is outputting TVGOS Data that our LG3410a's can use...

Let me preface this by saying..... If you can change channels on your DTVPAL, you are NOT, NOT in the TVGOS Mode!
This is accessed via the setup mode, and when you switch to it, it reboots, and then ONLY receives CBS DTV! Any touch of the remote will then prompt you if you want to change back to the regular mode!!!.

So, if you can only watch CBS, and anytime you touch the remote it asks you if you want to swtich to another mode...... THEN, and ONLY THEN, are you in the TVGOS mode!

Now, let's review how you can try and monitor for TVGOS Data.
You tried one: Hook it up and try to lock to it... Takes a long time, and is problamatical....

Best approach is to take a Scope and Examine the Vertical Interval (Not Horizontal Interval, Vertical interval) of the video..... (The broad area in between video)... If you can center this on the scope, look for some high amplitude data JUST BEFORE the video starts on the RIGHT SIDE of the broad area) THIS IS CLOSED CAPTIONING... and resides on Line 21... Line 22 starts active video. Get used to recognizing CC data... TVGOS will look very simelar to this but will be to the LEFT of the CC data.
From what I was told, when TVGOS is turned on.... There will be as many as 4 MORE lines of data that will look like CC data, but will reside to the LEFT of where CC data is Now! So become familiar with looking for CC data....

Now for those of you without a scope, here's how you can monitor for TVGOS Data on your DTVPAL's.... In TVGOS Mode only, of course!!!

Get an old TV (B&W, Color, it doesn't matter) with a Vertical Hold adjustment.... connect the RF or Video to that old TV, and select it....
Now adjust your vertical hold one way or the other until it rolls as slowely as possible.. and observe the dark area in between the video.....
Let's say you have done this.... and there is a black bar in the center of your screen.... THE BOTTOM OF THAT BLACK BAR Should have white dashes and dots going from right to left on one Line.... THIS IS CC DATA!
Again, get used to observing CC Data!!!

Now.... Look for up to 4 more lines that will look simelar to CC Data ABOVE where CC DATA Is presently.... If you only see ONE LINE OF DATA...... Then where you are at, TVGOS HAS NOT BEEN TURNED ON YET!!!

Once you see MORE THAN One line of what looks like CC data in the Vertical Interval..... THEN, and ONLY THEN, can you try to lock your 3410a to it!!

I hope this is clear.... I'll take a picture of a scope showing TR-40 Vertical Interval with CC Data (No TVGOS yet, or this post would not be necessary).

Hope this is clear...

OK... Here are some scope shots... Not the best focus, but I believe it gets the point across...

Both are shots of video of a TR-40/DTVPAL in TVGOS mode.

One of them shows two video fields, and other shows an expanded sweep of just the Vertical Blanking Interval (VBI)
The Closed Captioning is indicated by the RED ARROW....
Where the TVGOS Data will appear, when it does, is indicated by the yellow area...

See how there is only ONE line of Data present? That's CC data. When there is More than one line of data.... That's when we can start getting excited....

Nice to see I'm not the only one who hasn't removed their stickers from the DVR.

Rumor has it that Some (I don't know which) TVG devices may be getting data off CBS DT now.... but that does not include DTVPAL -- yet.

[QUOTE=Jan J;15761603]OK... Here are some scope shots... Not the best focus, but I believe it gets the point across...

Jan:

I'm a lurker and someone basically incompetent on the subject but I thought I'd risk freaking people out and let you know I think I'm getting converted TVGOS data through my DTVPal today. Following your great instructions I hooked up my scope to my DTVPal in TVGOS mode and I am seeing data on what I believe are VBI lines 13-16 when it's tuned to our local CBS station here in Houston, TX. I see this on both 11-1 and 11-2 but not PBS or ABC. See attached pic. This is OTA and no, I'm not using the analog passthrough. I have a Panasonic DMR-EH50 DVD recorder that uses v7 of TVGOS and, for the first time since buying the DTVPal it was able to set its clock through the PAL. It has also downloaded a TVGOS serial number which it wouldn't do before and is reporting both a correct Host channel and VBI channel of 211 (0xD3). Note that I had locked it to only search this channel. I'm also seeing type A and B slicing data for the 1st time. No listings yet but I'm probably in between times when I should be receiving them. I hope this isn't premature but if you haven't checked your scope today you may want to take a look.

Phil

WOW!!! That DOES Look Promising....

I am NOT getting that here off my DTVPal in TVGOS mode... CBS 2-1 (WBBM) in Chicago... Even rebooted the DTVPal 'in case'....

can you look at a single horizontal line in that area, and take a picture of it?

can you look at a single horizontal line in that area, and take a picture of it?

I'd love to but I'm afraid that's where the incompetent part comes in. You have some simple instructions you could give me on how to do that?

Phil

If your scope doesn't have a video line select option.... it would be VERY Hard to do!

The Scope I have does have line select, by field, and when it turns on here, I'll post pictures of what each line looks like.
From what I remember, TVG looks like CC, except that the sine wave on the left side of that line's video has more cycles, and there are data separators within the line.....

Actually, Phill, you have a leg up on the rest of us.... Please see what you can get with it.

From what I was told months ago, there will be multiple versions (8?)of TVG being sent and that's why multiple lines are involved....

I'll be awaiting your results, and your post has already been sent to multiple people, along with a: "When will Chicago be turned on" request...

Good going! Keep up the good work!!!

More data: CC Closed Captioning... usually has Language 1 on field 1, and language 2 on field 2. Therefore, 8 different TVG versions could be sent on 4 lines!

Rumor has it that Some (I don't know which) TVG devices may be getting data off CBS DT now.... but that does not include DTVPAL -- yet.
Jan - by this do you mean TVG devices that require ANALOG data?

(Because for a long time people with devices that are able to get TVGOS data from digital broadcasts have been doing so...e.g., my v8 Sony 250; and the Pal DVR is definitely getting TVGOS data in a lot of areas)

Anyway, my fingers have been VERY crossed that data that the Pal can convert for our 3410a (as well as purely analog devices) would appear momentarily....

In the SF area, both my Sony and 3410a failed to get data Friday from our local PBS stations, and - when I inquired on the Sony thread - someone who has been getting data from digital CBS locally checked and found that data was missing for (next Friday)...so Gemstar was definitely screwing around - or perhaps just screwing UP - somehow on Friday in the SF area!

If your scope doesn't have a video line select option.... it would be VERY Hard to do!

I'm afraid my cheap scope has no such option. I've attached two pictures that might help you a little. "vert_scope.jpg" is still triggering on the vertical refresh but I'm zoomed in on the region of interest as much as my scope would let me. "horiz_scope.jpg" is triggering at the horizontal rate. During this "quiescent picture" moment you can see little bursts of data at the top which are at the same voltage level as lines 13-16 of the VBI as seen in the 1st picture I uploaded. Note that lines 13-15 are always dancing around like mad. Line 16 just sits there except there is a brief (< 1second) burst of data every 15 seconds. About every 4th or 5th burst it's longer, lasting at least a second. It's very hard to tell but it doesn't appear 13-15 contain the same data. (Hopefully I have them numbered right!).

This might be something we want to pursue via email if my flailings with an oscilloscope aren't of general interest to the LG LTS-3410A group. I apologize to anyone I'm annoying.

Phil

Ok... I just went through my DTVPal and verified that my Zipcode and time is correct, and booted it out, and back into TVGOS... Still nothing but CC here in Chicagoland.

Phil, you're "The Man on the Hotseat" Now!! :)!

Anyone else seeing anything?

Here is two pics of line 21, which is CC and are displayed at a Horizontal rate. It is simelar to your horizontal picture, but it is just field one, of line, line 20, .

The Pix "STATIC" is what line 21 looks like when NO DATA is sent... The Sine wave locks the receiver to the signal, and then data (Which goes from right to left) is received.
This data can look like any sequence of long or short pulses.... and will look to "Bounce Around" quite a bit....

Pix "DATA" is an example of what it could look like....

TVG looks like this, for the most part....

Phil... It is interesting to note that when I look at Line 20 (The line to the Left of CC)
I'm seeing the same subtle setup on line 20 compared to line 21 or others... and also the little "tit" on the far right side of line 20.... I'm seeing that here, too!

But, unfortunately, no TVGOS here in Chicagoland.....


P.S. Phil You have PM!!

I left the DTVPal in TVGOS mode overnight and it looks like it did, indeed, create analog TVGOS listings somehow for the 1st time since I've owned it. See the attached screen shot. Don't laugh at the lousy photo or even lousier TV. I originally had the VBI search locked to channel 211 but the DVR locked up so I switched to 31. Both are valid for the local CBS affiliate 11-1. This lockup may have been something specific to my non-LG DVD recorder so I wont discuss it here. Summarizing:

Houston, TX
TVGOS zip code = 00010
OTA
TVGOS device = Panasonic DMR-EH50 DVD recorder (v7 device like the LG)
Host channel 0x1f (31)
TVGOS version 7.01.32/7.06.12

I really want to thank Jan J. for all his hard work on this over the last several months. If it hadn't been for his regular updates I might have given up on the DTVPal by now.

Phil

Sorry to post some basic questions about the 3410A, no time to read the entire thread.
I recently purchased this unit on EBay, it seemed to work OK, but then started spontaneously re-booting. It seemed to have something to do with the signal strength on my digital cable/QAM line, which is also hooked up to several other recorders, including an LG LST-3510A HD receiver. I managed to record a few shows using manual timers, but the 3410A began re-booting while the timer was on, thus cancelling the recording. This happened even with manual recordings, and became very frustrating.
I contacted LG customer service, who suggested sending the unit in for repair.
Before deciding to do this, I tried re-arranging the incoming cable line, putting the 3410 first, and it seemed to help. However, when trying to record prime-time shows in HD, such as CBS, the unit stops recording and re-boots. The signal strength meter is just into the "good" zone, and it seems during prime time hours, the digital cable signal varies quite a bit in intensity. The kicker is, my LG 42in plasma TV and 3510A receiver have essentially the same tuners, and have no problem maintaining a picture. I tried using a booster amp, but it doesn't help.
The TVGOS shows no data, of course, I've tried different configurations to no avail.
I live in the NYC area, and have Time Warner Cable.
My question is, has anyone else had a similar problem with the 3410A ? Is my unit actually defective, or does the cable signal strength play a large part of being able to record programming ? Watching the display while trying to record, it will momentarily
blink "No Signal", show the "Hello" screen, dispay a picture briefly, and repeat the boot process...... I've tried leaving the unit on for half an hour prior to recording, seems to have a steady picture, then while recording it just stops and re-boots. Very frustrating....

The sucker can be flaky, but I can't imagine anything from the cable signal could possibly be causing it to reboot.

Since I'm a menace with a soldering iron, I'd send it in if it were me, but I know some of the more technically-minded denizens of this neighborhood will have other suggestions.

philcstuart:
Just for fun, could you pick a time when you see active data on theTVGOS lines with the DTVPal in TVGOS mode, then switch to normal mode and see if they're still there? I understand that TVGOS mode is necessary for a TVGOS-enabled device to control the DTVPal for recordings, but I see no reason the data couldn't be output whenever it's available, in either mode.

FWIW, no active data yet from WRGB-DT (CBS, Albany NY area) at a time when their analog side is feeding data on line 16 and my 3410A is seeing it. The other TVGOS source, WMHT (PBS) has data on lines 13-16, both fields. Some are active, some aren't and there's a difference between the fields, supporting Jan J's information that they'll be feeding 8 formats. I don't have a DTVPal (used my coupons on a couple of Zeniths) but I recorded a short segment of the analog TVGOS PID (0x0112) using an HDHomeRun and TSReader Lite and examined it with ListXP.

Joe... Try this....
Go into TVG and scan forward and backward in time.... Will it reboot easier if you scan TVG than not?

Second test.. Do nothing... just let it receive an image... does it reboot all on its own?

Either way.... from past experience---its components.

If it reboots easily during a scan of TVG screens.... it's most likely the caps in the power supply.. There is a post a while back (Gee--I wish we could have Sticky's!) indicating what caps to change and what values to replace with....
More info: I believe it was 5 to 8 caps that definately get changed, and a couple others to check... If you have drawings, you're doing the: +12v, +5v, +3.9v, and both +3.3v supplies on the secondary side.
C128, C129, C130 (128 becomes a 2200/25v, c129 becomes 1000/52v, C130 changed to 470/25v
C122, C124 Both become 2200/25v
C125, C126, become 2200/25 C127 becomes 3300/16
On primary side check C107 & C108 and replace with identical parts if dry (high ESR)
Also solder a resistor lead between transformer pin 18 and D128 (There is already a trace there--adding a second jumper eliminates a cold solder intermittant)

If it reboots just sitting there..... a certain cap leaked on the main board, and had the exact same symptoms... It was my 2nd unit... and since that repair, unit has been flawless.
Here's detailed info on it:

Unit resetting it self.... "Hello"
Power Supplies OK.
Does so with or without drive connected. Resets just 'sitting' there.

By IC102 -------> C129 10/16v. Page 3-41

When I cut it out (cut cap parallel to board, near base of cap cutting 'can' of cap), and used dental pick to work off remains of cap and plastic base, found dried residue from leaking cap under it on PCB traces....
This cleaned off with toothbrush and "Flux-Off" (Could have used Isopropol Alcohol sparengly instead).

Replaced with a 10/50v cap



Either way, I hope your good with soldering!!!

That's my best guess.... Jan

I left the DTVPal in TVGOS mode overnight and it looks like it did, indeed, create analog TVGOS listings somehow for the 1st time since I've owned it. See the attached screen shot. Don't laugh at the lousy photo or even lousier TV. I originally had the VBI search locked to channel 211 but the DVR locked up so I switched to 31. Both are valid for the local CBS affiliate 11-1. This lockup may have been something specific to my non-LG DVD recorder so I wont discuss it here.
...
Phil
I don't see a screen shot - presumably of analog TV listing from your TVGOS unit??? I'd LIKE to see them, but maybe you could just say what days they are for, i.e., 1,2,3,8 or whatever? Thanks!

I don't see a screen shot - presumably of analog TV listing from your TVGOS unit??? I'd LIKE to see them, but maybe you could just say what days they are for, i.e., 1,2,3,8 or whatever? Thanks!

My mistake. I went back and modified the original message to now (hopefully) include the attachment. As for which data I received last night... I had data for this morning (Monday), for Wed from 4:00 PM until 12:30 AM Thu and from midnight until 9:00 AM next Monday.

It does not appear I received any more data during the day today so now today is all "No listing" but the other days are still there. I still see data on the VBI lines, though. This morning I changed my VBI search station from 31 back to 211 which possibly caused this. It may also be that the new data isn't quite ready for prime time yet.

Phil

philcstuart:
Just for fun, could you pick a time when you see active data on theTVGOS lines with the DTVPal in TVGOS mode, then switch to normal mode and see if they're still there?


I did that. With the DTVPal in TVGOS mode the scope showed that TVGOS data was present in the VBI for my CBS station (on both subchannel 11-1 and 11-2). I then rebooted the DTVPal to its normal mode. The scope did not show TVGOS data on any subchannel including CBS. There was only CC data. I switched back to TVGOS mode and the data was there again on CBS.

My mistake. I went back and modified the original message to now (hopefully) include the attachment. As for which data I received last night... I had data for this morning (Monday), for Wed from 4:00 PM until 12:30 AM Thu and from midnight until 9:00 AM next Monday.

It does not appear I received any more data during the day today so now today is all "No listing" but the other days are still there. I still see data on the VBI lines, though. This morning I changed my VBI search station from 31 back to 211 which possibly caused this. It may also be that the new data isn't quite ready for prime time yet.

Phil
hmmm...thanks for the photo...it has the TV Guide logo, so it must be TVGOS...so this is the screen from your Panasonic recorder?

I'm a bit puzzled about the 211 vs 31 "vbi search station" - is that a term used in the Panasonic, and are these numbers the "fake" channel numbers being supplied to your Panasonic with the TVGOS data?

just trying to parse what you're seeing...I guess I should go back and read the DTVPal appendix on this mode - haven't looked at it since the summer, which was the last time I hooked up the Pal in front of my 3410a

which reminds me - after I saw your post last night, I put a post referring to it in the Sony 250/500 thread, and a guy there from Houston said he would try the Pal with his Sony this week...the SOny has a little better diagnostics than the 3410a...I have both, so when/if Gemstar brings this deal to the San Francisco area, I'll be trying both these units on the data (though I may want to wait for a slack period in programs I'm interested in, because I wouldn't want to lose my current listings for these units, which I am getting more or less satisfactorily from PBS analog..)

hmmm...thanks for the photo...it has the TV Guide logo, so it must be TVGOS...so this is the screen from your Panasonic recorder?

I'm a bit puzzled about the 211 vs 31 "vbi search station" - is that a term used in the Panasonic, and are these numbers the "fake" channel numbers being supplied to your Panasonic with the TVGOS data?


Yes, the screen shot is the TVGOS screen from the DVD recorder. As for the "vbi search station" I may have the name slightly wrong, I can't remember what the recorder calls it. Basically TVGOS searches through all the channels looking for TVGOS data. You can force it to not search and instead use a specific channel. It's that channel I'm talking about. Only CBS carries the digital TVGOS data so there's no point in searching the other channels so I locked it to CBS. 211 is the fake channel number the DTVPal expects to give you subchannel 11-1. You can also get the same subchannel here by sending it 31. For a while I thought having it set to 211 might have caused a lockup on the DVD recorder that occurred so I switched to 31. I really don't think it mattered.

Phil

I posted a rehash of my DTVPal/TVGOS experiences last night over on the DTVPal group. That might be a better place to ask me questions about the subject since I don't even own an LG LST-3410a.

Phil

Jan J..... thanks for the helpful info, I'm not at all good with a soldering iron, I wouldn't even think of attempting what you've suggested......
It has no effect on re-booting by scanning TVGuide back & forth.... it's very random.
Last nite I set two timers using the TVGuide, the first one worked, the second one
did not, the machine re-booted as the second program was about to start.
Yes, sometimes the machine will re-boot while just 'sitting there'.

So according to your opinion, this machine is defective and should be sent back to
LG for repairs ? I certainly don't mind paying a repair charge as long as it works
properly when I get it back......

Just leave it on... no timers... not in playback, and see if it reboots just sitting there, receiving a station.

If so, that could point to the reset circuitry, the single cap mentioned above.

If LG no longer repairs it, you might try a TV Repair shop, and ask him/her if they do component level surface mount repair. It's only one cap... and a good possibility that's it.

Hi All,

4310a/DTVPal hookup is working perfectly now in DC. Connected to the AV-1 input of the 3410A. Picked up a day of guide listings for the DTV stations here (or at least 5 of them - the ones I have turned on) and posted them to the Guide page. After editing the channel numbers (The 'Pal posted them as 151, 171, 181, 191, and 361), I can tune them just as I would have before.

Host Channel shows 0x18000022, or 34 (the UHF equivalent of 9.1, CBS). Don't know what the 180000 refers to though...

HD Picture quality is still amazing. :) :) :)

I'll keep you all posted as to the listing of additional days and anything else of interest.

Bottom line: Works as advertised.

Great news, Albertso!
Nothing here in Chicago, yet, but here's an email:

Jan,

Tests with our data are still being ran in your area. We hope to have it up and running soon.

4310a/DTVPal hookup is working perfectly now in DC.

1 - Connected to the AV-1 input of the 3410A.

2 - Picked up a day of guide listings for the DTV stations here (or at least 5 of them - the ones I have turned on) and posted them to the Guide page.

3 - After editing the channel numbers (The 'Pal posted them as 151, 171, 181, 191, and 361), I can tune them just as I would have before.

Bottom line: Works as advertised.
Hi, Albertso - questions regarding the statements above from your post:

1 - doesn't the converted analog output of the Pal just go in where the antenna would have before? apparently not, from what you say

2 - what do you mean you "posted" the listings to the guide page? Shouldn't they just APPEAR on the guide page the way they would have before???

3 - if you edit the channel numbers on the guide page, will listings from succeeding day's downloads go into the right place?

(Maybe my last question is answered in the Pal appendix for TVGOS mode - I guess I'm going to have to go back and read it...I forgotten the details since summer)

Here in SF area we're still getting the straight analog listings from PBS, since those stations in our area are going to continue broadcasting until June, with the new transition date...I have to rethink how the whole setup will work for my 3410a, since we'll still have those analog stations coming through on the antenna...maybe it doesn't matter...

Congratulations Albertso,

Split the antenna feed, one leg to the DTVPAL, the other to the OTA antenna input. The video out of the DTV Pal goes into AV1. Is that it?

Jan, can I use a couple of old ATSC tuners, an RCA DTC100 and an LG 4200 to do this? I would set them to 480i out and plug that into the AV1. Any reason that will not work?

3410a/DTVPal hookup is working perfectly now in DC.Are you getting it from OTA or cable?

I think everyone that's getting it is getting it OTA right now, if I'm not mistaken. Which means this might not necessarily apply to anyone trying to get it from cable yet.

Are you getting it from OTA or cable?

I think everyone that's getting it is getting it OTA right now, if I'm not mistaken. Which means this might not necessarily apply to anyone trying to get it from cable yet.
? does the DTVPal have anything to do with cable? (I realize I haven't been thinking about this much lately, since my Pal has been sitting in its box in the corner of the room, untouched since August...)

Art, if you mean can you decode TVGOS off an ATSC tuner, No.
You'd have to be receiving CBS DT station, and have an Echostar TR40 (AKA "DTVPal") and boot it into a special mode where it only receives CBS... Then the video (& RF) out of the DTVPal (When turned on by Macrovision/Norpak/_________) would have up to 8 different versions of TVGOS in the VBI... And it's the V7 TVGOS in the VBI that our 3410a's want to see!

Once it gets turned on here in Chicago, I plan on 'Forcing' the 3410 to switch to Channel 3 (where I've added the DTVPal in TVGOS mode in my cable feed) from Channel 7 (ABC off cable) on just one of my 3410a's, and this way I can compare the TVGOS reception off of ABC on cable, compared to DTVPal on cable (That I inserted).

I'm thinking those using a 3410 OTA (only) would have it easier: Add the RF Output of DTVPAL to cable input, then go into setup and select Cable YES, Cablebox NO, and let it find the only channel (The DTVPal) connected to the Cable input.

Great news, Albertso!
Nothing here in Chicago, yet, but here's an email:

Jan,

Tests with our data are still being ran in your area. We hope to have it up and running soon.
Jan J. - it has re-booted in the past while 'just sitting' there..... which seems dependent on the incoming signal level. I moved my 3410A to another room where the signal is stronger, it seems to have helped. Last nite the machine recorded two of three timers, only failing on the third when changing channels. Briefly the display showed " No Signal" and the timer went off. Why it does that, I'd sure like to know !
LG still does repair work on this unit, so I guess my best bet is to send it in and see what happens from there. My only other HD TV recording option would be to get the
Sony DHG-HDD250 or 500 on EBay, both which are highly overpriced machines.

You'd have to be receiving CBS DT station, and have an Echostar TR40 (AKA "DTVPal") and boot it into a special mode where it only receives CBS... Then the video (& RF) out of the DTVPal (When turned on by Macrovision/Norpak/_________) would have up to 8 different versions of TVGOS in the VBI... And it's the V7 TVGOS in the VBI that our 3410a's want to see!


Just to review here, to make sure I have it right, the DTV Pal (in the proper mode) will output TVGOS data on its TV SET OUT (RF) and its VIDEO (composite) output and the 3410A would be able to recognize the V7 TVGOS data on either its CABLE IN (RF input) or its A/V IN 1 (composite video input).

Just to review here, to make sure I have it right, the DTV Pal (in the proper mode) will output TVGOS data on its TV SET OUT (RF) and its VIDEO (composite) output and the 3410A would be able to recognize the V7 TVGOS data on either its CABLE IN (RF input) or its A/V IN 1 (composite video input).


You got it. I must decide now whether I realy need the TVGOS data. I get the schedule from many sources. As long as i do not loose the channel lineup, I should be OK.

You got it. I must decide now whether I realy need the TVGOS data. I get the schedule from many sources. As long as i do not loose the channel lineup, I should be OK.
? are you talking about the TVGOS channel lineup OR the channels your unit finds on scanning? I don't understand what good the TVGOS channel lineup does you if you're not getting program data for that lineup...

On another topic:
I'm now wondering whether I should try the DTVPal again for the San Francisco data...I'd rather not lose the full 8 days of data I have right in the middle of the heaviest programming period of the year...

Is there a way to forve the unit to analog channel 3 (i.e., to the converted output from the DTVPal) without losing the data I already have?

I think that when the first folks with DTVPal and 3410a start seeing data, and testing, it will be far clearer....
Quite frankly, for past few months I offered to test the data for them and report back on my findings... Way back when we first hear about the delay's...

Once data is sent, I plan on breaking away one 3410a from CH7 and force it to CH3, and I believe a lot of questions will then become clear.... cause you know me.... I'll post my findings....

OK, About a dozen questions, not quite as many answers:

First, it is OTA only. I have split the input from my outside antenna to the Pal and the 3410A. I have the output of the Pal connected to AV1. The 3410A is set for cable box and that is what the front panel shows for AV1.

When I said "posted", I meant "provided as usual".

After editing the channel numbers... is a good question, because the data did not show up for today. I checked and the Host Channel remains as it was, correct for the CBS HD channel. So, either, the data stream went down, or changing the channel numbers, as mentioned in the Pal instructions messed things up.

avsntf, I lost a couple of days of data gained the old way, but I think you will lose it all since you have to change the "ZIP" for the 3410A to the "pseudo-ZIP" defined in the Pal instructions. That resets the whole guide.

I am going to leave it the way it is for now and see if the listings come back. If not, I'll restart and see what happens.

[QUOTE=avnstf;15798141]? are you talking about the TVGOS channel lineup OR the channels your unit finds on scanning? I don't understand what good the TVGOS channel lineup does you if you're not getting program data for that lineup...

Answer: I have a complete set of a TVGOS channel lineup now for OTA. I use the LG's when I want to watch a program with exceptional fidelity. They still provide a picture far superior to the 2 MOT 3416A HD DVR's and even an LG 4200 tuner. I get the program schedules via the 3416's. I use the 3410A's like one would use a VCR. Because I have to rotate the antenna in order to receive every channel because of multipath, programming OTA is not possible. I used to program and record unscrambled cable but I can no longer get the TVGOS data via Comcast. Currently I can record 2 shows each on the (2) 3416's, 1 show each on the (2) 3410a's, and 1 on my computer via a MyHD130. I'm not sure I need to receive the TVGOS data but if I decide to, it is good to know the DTVPAL will do the trick. The 3410A has an almost cult following now. Six years ago it was all we could do to keep them working as advertised. It is a credit to the designers and to those folks who revised the firmware that 6 years later we can still use them to record shows, save to other media and that they are QAM 256, ATSC, NTSC and composite video compatible.

I don't know if this is correct, but when it "Happens" I'm going to do this.

Prior to DTVPal:
Set for Cable yes, Cablebox no.
Locked to channel 7 (Where I know that TVG is coming from)...
3410a set for 60076 (My Zipcode)

After DTVPal:
DTVPal set for 60076, Central Time Zone with DST
3410a:
Set for Cable yes, Cablebox no.
Locked to channel 3 (Where DTVPal is transmitting)...
3410a set for 60076 (My Zipcode)

I'm going to treat the DTVPal as if it was a new TVG transmitter in Chicago.

Again... I don't know that this is correct.... and I don't have any advance information on this.... but it seems logical that the data should be the same..... If I'm wrong... I'm wrong....


EDIT: On another altogether different subject:

I've one 3410a Motherboard that won't boot. Won't even get to "Hello"
If Anyone is interested in it for testing or ............... Contact me....
It's available..... For the cost of shipping.... Motherboard only
The Firewire ports have been removed, but the rest of the hardware is there.

Host Channel shows 0x18000022, or 34 (the UHF equivalent of 9.1, CBS). Don't know what the 180000 refers to though...


Does anyone know what F06 means? That's the current number indicated as Host Channel on LST-3410A and several Philips and Panasonic DVD recorders with analog tuners.

LST-3410's TVGOS has become functional again during the past week after it was reset using factory default option. I assume it's using an analog source which will end in June.

Analog PBS here is Ch. 9; analog CBS is Ch. 7; analog ABC is Ch. 4. In the past Ch. (0x?)4 has been indicated as an analog host.

Digital CBS is (Cable) Ch. 110.2 which Sony DDR-DHG500 appears now to be using reliably.

I'm pickled tink about learning to easily reset the clock on 3410 by going into factory default mode, thus getting the recorder out of LG's Catch 22. Even without TVGOS 3410 is an excellent back-up recorder and the only digital TV recorder with real analog line inputs!

My DVR has worked flawlessly for over two years. Lately though my guide data has been spotty in the listings. Sometimes when I'm in the guide and try to exit out the screen goes dark. Other times when I hit the guide button...nothing happens. I've rebooted (unplugged) the box and the guide seems to work for a couple days and then the problem with partial guide data starts all over. I did a search of this thread and saw many mentions of factory resets but not exactly how to do it. Can someone point me in the right direction please? I bought an extended warranty from Circuit City. Yeah, I know....good luck!

If you can access TVGOS you don't need a factory reset. Just re-enter your info on the Change System Settings under SETUP even if it's correct.

To reset to factory defaults, first select video out to display 480i on composite or S-Video. Next press 'left arrow' and 'enter' simultaneously on the front of DVR (not on the remote). Then you can use the remote if you wish. Scroll down 10 times (or up once) to 'reset to factory defaults' on the bottom of the 10 item list which appears and then 'select' and the DVR will reset. Then using Menu you can reset the clock and edit the channels received.

If Ch. Edit doesn't allow access to digital or cable channels (OTA is default), back out of Menu, enter a channel number from the category you want directly, and re-enter Ch. Edit to select channels in that category.

After resetting factory defaults and setting the clock you may not be able to access TVGOS right away, but hopefully within a relatively short time the dreaded RESERVED light will clear.

Good luck! Dealing with 3410A is unique, as much an art as science!

Jan,

I think you will have to set your Pal to ZIP=00003 (Chicago) for it to work off of the digital signal. My real ZIP is 20895, but I have to set the Pal to 00007 to get the local listings off of your local CBS HD channel. Also, the 3410A will have to be set to Cablebox to send channel change instructions out the g-link so that the 3410A can change the channels to search for the TVGOS info.

After editing the channel numbers... is a good question, because the data did not show up for today. I checked and the Host Channel remains as it was, correct for the CBS HD channel. So, either, the data stream went down, or changing the channel numbers, as mentioned in the Pal instructions messed things up.

albertso, I've been meaning to ask you again about the numbering/editing of channels...how is it working now, and how do you have the channels numbers? with the (for example) 171 format, which I guess would refer to channel 7.1?

or what? and have you had more data filling in with however you have the channels numbered?

Thanks - I still haven't had the nerve to try to start getting data via the Pal, since I'm getting it via the normal route (though it's a pain, because I have to reset the unit every night before I go to bed, if I expect to get the next set of listings overnight...I didn't have to do this for the 3-4 weeks from Thanksgiving weekend to about Dec 20, during which period my unit decided to use CBS-analog as the host channel)

Fred,

Can you not just set the Pal's host channel? I don't understand why it would need control from the 3410 if the host channel is known. The Pal should never need to change channels was my thinking.

I've never used the g-link. I'm still hoping I never have to. :confused:

Albertso, I changed the Pal Zip from 60076 to 00003... No difference in VBI, still only CC.
Since you re-boot to get into TVG+ I'm not entirely sold on this... But I'm willing to test it!!!

Albertso, I changed the Pal Zip from 60076 to 00003... No difference in VBI, still only CC.
Since you re-boot to get into TVG+ I'm not entirely sold on this... But I'm willing to test it!!!

Jan:

For what it's worth, my Pal is still set to my regular zip code (77573), only my DVD recorder TVGOS setup is using the fake zip code (00010) and I'm still getting the TVGOS data here in Houston. Thus once you have the Pal it TVG+ mode I don't think it uses the zip that is loaded into the Pal at all.

I have a stupid question. Since you are setting your 3410a up with "cablebox=no" you can't be using the g-link. Thus how are you setting your Pal to the TVGOS host channel? You could use a universal remote set up for a Scientific Atlanta cable box. Is that what you are doing?

Phil

I'm using Cable Yes, cablebox no. That's why I'm mixing the RF from DTVPal into the cable.... So Ch 3 has the TVGOS.

I'm guessing that I could use video into input 1 of the 3410a, from DTVPal video out, but then I'd have an issue with 3 different units trying to control the cablebox via the IR control. Eventually they'd be bound to fight over the box. That's why Analog cable works -- Wife can have 3 different analog cable channels recorded simultaneously if necessary... Try that with IR control!

As it turns out, wife has Hallmark channel on pretty much all the time on the box. This way, she can get her Hallmark 'fix' at any time 24/7.... So a bunch of 3410a's fighting over one cablebox just doesn't work.

So I use cable yes, cablebox no, and therefore have to mix in the DTVPal RF on ch 3 into the cable rf in order to exist....

This has seemed to be the best 'bang for the buck': ia the Wife gets the cable box at all times, Analog Cable or OTA RF both can be recorded at any time on any DVR; and we still can record any Cablebox channel via NTSC Ch 4 at our discression, via Channel 4 (I've modulated cablebox output into CH4 and fed it to whole house. and cablebox can still be seen at any time, as long as it isn't already being recorded as a CH4 recording.

Up till now (DTVPal) I've not been able to use cable yes, cablebox yes, cause the same TVG Video (DTVPal) going into video one was supposed to also be cablebox video, and up to DTVPal, this wasn't possible, cause the Motorola Box strippped TVG data.

I'm rambling, I know... hope this is clear....... Jan

I'm using Cable Yes, cablebox no. That's why I'm mixing the RF from DTVPal into the cable.... So Ch 3 has the TVGOS.


I guess I'm still a bit hazy. What channel do you have the DTVPal set to when you are watching the VBI for TVGOS data? I think I see how your RF out from the DTVPal is mixing into the cable as channel 3 but the DTVPal still has to be told what channel to pass out it's RF output unless you are using the pass-thru. You'll only get TVGOS on channel 3 of the 3410a if the DTVPal is set to the station that is sending TVGOS wont you? I don't really need to know, I'm just curious.

Phil

When I boot into TVGOS mode (It's a separate Boot mode) it only receives CBS-DT.
If you hit any key on the remote, the DTVPal asks you if you want to leave this mode....
So there is no channel change, and volume Up or Dn will be interpreted as a request to leave this mode... My plan is just use this as a device to transport TVG via the VBI of that signal, across the RF coax to the multiple 3410a's......

So other than the TVG, channel 3 here is a throw-away channel, as channel 2 is the same thing.... via cable.

When I boot into TVGOS mode (It's a separate Boot mode) it only receives CBS-DT.
If you hit any key on the remote, the DTVPal asks you if you want to leave this mode....
So there is no channel change, and volume Up or Dn will be interpreted as a request to leave this mode... My plan is just use this as a device to transport TVG via the VBI of that signal, across the RF coax to the multiple 3410a's......

So other than the TVG, channel 3 here is a throw-away channel, as channel 2 is the same thing.... via cable.

Jan:

That isn't the way my DTVPal works. I agree that when you boot into TVGOS mode you can't use the DTVPal remote but it doesn't at that point receive only CBS-DT. It is still a tuner and it converts whatever DT channel it is tuned to into analog. Unless you change the Pal to CBS via the g-link you'll be receiving whatever channel it booted to which, most likely, isn't CBS. If you don't want to use glink you can still change channels on the Pal manually but you'll have to use a universal remote set to send codes for a Scientific Atlanta cable box Such a universal remote is basically what the glink emulates.

Phil

I'm not connecting g-link... Just want to use VBI.

I'm not connecting g-link... Just want to use VBI.

The problem is, the VBI you want to use only comes out of the Pal if the Pal is booted into TVGOS mode AND the Pal is tuned to CBS. If the Pal is on any other station, PBS for instance, all you'll get is CC. I've verified that with my scope using your instructions. The only way to tune the Pal to CBS when booted into TVGOS mode is through the g-link.

Phil

When I boot to TVGOS with no G-Link attached, the ONLY channel it receives is CBS.
Once Chicago turns VBI on the DTVPal, things should be clearer...

When I boot to TVGOS with no G-Link attached, the ONLY channel it receives is CBS.
Once Chicago turns VBI on the DTVPal, things should be clearer...

Again, that's not how my DTVPal works. When I boot it into TVGOS with the g-link nowhere near it, it boots up into whatever channel it was on before in non TVGOS mode. If I had it on PBS in non-TVGOS mode and boot to TVGOS mode it comes up tuned to PBS. Do you have yours tuned to CBS before you boot into TVGOS mode?

Phil & Jan, When I booted up the Pal configuration with the glink, the 3410A cycled through many channels before finding the CBS feed. I was watching on a scope and saw it scanning the channels. You might get lucky and catch the TVGOS feed, but that is a long shot.

Rf, you can not tune the Pal when it is in TVGOS mode. As Phil says, ANY button will bring up the reboot warning. If you activate, you will come out of TVGOS mode and that's that.

avnstf, I am still having problems with the renamed channels, but I do not know if it is me or them. I am working back through the steps, Guide Reset, etc, to try to figure it out. The 3410 summary page shows that the Guide channel is correct (here 34, for CBS), but I have lost the guide data since I renumbered the channels.

Will keep you all posted.

Fred,

First questions:

What happens if you disconnect the g-link after initial setup?

What happens after a power interruption? Do the devices maintain knowledge of each other, or does it require another initial setup?

ok, I'm having a hard time keeping things straight here...if I understand correctly, there are only 2 people in this thread who have actually reported getting TVGOS data via a DTVPal...albertso for a 3410a and philcstuart for a DVD recorder.

I'm particularly interested in albertso's experience, because I have a 3410a (which I haven't recently tried on the DTVPal because I'm still getting pretty complete listings from PBS analog)...but as I understand it, albertso, you haven't been getting listing since you renumbered the channels...right?

philcstuart...have you been getting daily additions to the listings in your DVD recorder, and do you have it set up in accordance with the Pal instructions?

Anybody else viewing this thread who is getting TVGOS via a Pal, esp. for the 3410a?

I know that people have noted in other threads that they have started getting listing, but I haven't kept track of whether any have 3410a's OTA...

Maybe I should use this post as a continuing summary of experience? I'd be glad to do so for a while, until things are clearer!

Thanks - Tony

philcstuart...have you been getting daily additions to the listings in your DVD recorder, and do you have it set up in accordance with the Pal instructions?


Yes, the updates have been filling in every day so I've maintained a full 8 days worth most of the time except for an occasional hole in the data here and there. I still only have listings for the 6 largest stations, though. I've been doing scheduled recordings etc. and it seems to work fine.

I have the unit set up as-per the DTVPal instructions with one exception. I haven't been letting it scan for the host channel and have instead locked it to only "scan" my CBS station. I did that fearing it might have to scan the three digit channels as well and that might take forever. Summarizing my setup:

Houston, Texas
DTVPal software version F101TCGH-N
DTVPal bootstrap version 1812TCGH
DTVPal booted into TVGOS mode
TVGOS device: Panasonic DMR-EH50 DVD recorder
TVGOS version 7 (7.01.32/7.06.12)
Antenna hooked to RF input on the DTVPal
RF output of the DTVPal connected to RF in on the DVD recorder
g-link plugged into the DVD recorder and set up in front of the DTVPal
TVGOS setup on the DVD recorder:
zip code 00010 (my actual zip is 77573)
have cable
have cable box
DVD recorder receives data from the "cable box" on ch 3

Phil

Phil & Jan, When I booted up the Pal configuration with the glink, the 3410A cycled through many channels before finding the CBS feed. I was watching on a scope and saw it scanning the channels. You might get lucky and catch the TVGOS feed, but that is a long shot.

I was afraid the cycling might take a long time and thus locked mine to only scan CBS.

Rf, you can not tune the Pal when it is in TVGOS mode. As Phil says, ANY button will bring up the reboot warning. If you activate, you will come out of TVGOS mode and that's that.

Actually you can, and have to tune the Pal, you just have to do it through the g-link. Basically it understands its native IR codes as well as the codes for a Scientific Atlanta cable box (only the digits as far as I can tell). If it's in its normal mode it only understands its native codes. If it's in TVGOS mode the native codes cause it to want to reboot, the Scientific Atlanta digits cause it to change channels. Technically you can change channels w/o using a g-link by setting a universal remote for the appropriate Scientific Atlanta cable box. You can then change channels on the Pal with the number buttons.

What happens if you disconnect the g-link after initial setup?

I hope you don't mind me hopping in here. The g-link is really just an IR LED on the end of a wire that plugs into your 3410a. The 3410a uses it just like a remote control to change channels on the DTVPal. Unhooking it has the same effect as putting your remote control in a drawer somewhere and not using it. Without it the 3410a wont be able to change channels on the Pal so the Pal will just sit there merrily converting whatever channel it was left on.

What happens after a power interruption? Do the devices maintain knowledge of each other, or does it require another initial setup?

The devices don't really have much knowledge of each other. All communication is one way, from 3410a to DTVPal over the g-link. Booting the DTVPal into TVGOS mode basically just tells it to only respond to Scientific Atlanta cable box codes and to convert the digital TVGOS it receives and stick it into the VBI of its analog output. If it loses power it may come back up in TVGOS mode, I haven't tried it. If it doesn't you just need to go back into the setup and pick TVGOS mode again. There's no special setting to tell it you have a 3410a.

The TVGOS settings on the 3410a probably survive a power cycle. I know my DVD recorder has never lost those settings across a power failure in the several years I've owned it.

Phil

Not at all. Thank you Phil for helping me understand better. I'm still waiting for a coupon so I can order a Pal. Guess I should have started sooner, but was wanting to first verify the Pal will indeed provide TVGOS data to legacy devices. Can't say I'm too thrilled with our government's handling of this entire fiasco.

Just want to make sure I understand the concept correctly. :confused:

DTVPal is an OTA ATSC converter which can supply digital TVGOS data when in a special CBS digital host mode and tuned to an OTA CBS digital channel. :)

At this time then is there no available option whatsowever for digitally supplied TVGOS if a CBS digital host channel is only available from a cable source? :(

Phil,

Thanks for answering rf's question. I did not have the answers as I have not disconnected the glink or reset the power. You are correct, the cgannels can be adjusted in TVGOS mode. In fact, I ran into a problem there. I have some very weak channels here and one of them dropped out during the scan for TVGOS data. The scan hung and just sat there until I discovered it. Do you lock to CBS by deleting all others??

SixPack: One word is incorrect in your sentence about the DTVPal: DTVPal is an OTA ATSC converter which can supply ANALOG TVGOS data when in a special [CBS] digital host mode and tuned to an OTA CBS digital channel.

I think I am back in business again. Cleaned out the channel list and reset the 3410A. Guide light is back on now, for the first time in a couple of days. Will check tomorrow for new listings.

Do you lock to CBS by deleting all others??


No, there is a hidden option in the TVGOS menus that you can use to limit its search for TVGOS VBI data to a single channel. Unfortunately the procedure is slightly different for different TVGOS capable devices. It involves tuning your 3410a to the channel you want to limit the search to then entering 963214785 on the remote while on a certain screen in the TVGOS section. Someone that owns a 3410a will have to give you the exact procedure. It's probably already in this forum somewhere.

Phil

No, there is a hidden option in the TVGOS menus that you can use to limit its search for TVGOS VBI data to a single channel. Unfortunately the procedure is slightly different for different TVGOS capable devices. It involves tuning your 3410a to the channel you want to limit the search to then entering 963214785 on the remote while on a certain screen in the TVGOS section. Someone that owns a 3410a will have to give you the exact procedure. It's probably already in this forum somewhere.

Phil
yes, that sounds familiar - I think it's in a brief summary of such things from some time ago in this thread, and that I have a printout of it (along with TVGOS stuff for my Sony 250) sitting on top of my TV...I'll check it when I go downstairs next time, though I think albertso knows about the summary I am referring to...

I may in any case be forced soon to do the Pal thing with my 3410a..I noticed earlier today that I didn't get listings overnight - despite carefully resetting my unit last night (as I have to do each night) - so I don't have listing for either Saturday or Sunday...

suspicious as I am, I checked the TV Guide on my Sony and found that IT, TOO, is missing listings for those 2 days!!!

So it appears Gemstar is playing games again OR, since February 17 is rather near, it COULD be that PBS analog locally is squelching the TVGOS broadcast (even though it, like most stations in the SF area, is continuing analog broadcasts until the NEW transition date)

In either case, I may HAVE to start using the Pal (and my Sony may have to make its digital transition) sooner, rather than later!

good luck to us all - Tony

...
Do you lock to CBS by deleting all others??
....
I think I am back in business again. Cleaned out the channel list and reset the 3410A. Guide light is back on now, for the first time in a couple of days. Will check tomorrow for new listings.
Albertso, I went and found my printout with the "forcing" procedure, which is from last March (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13453320#post13453320) and is a procedure credited to YOU!!!

I personally am loath to try it because it says that if it doesn't work, the only way to get OUT of it is with a complete hardware reset, which I don't want to risk because under no circumstances do I want to lose my recordings!

So when I try the Pal again for TVGOS data, I will just let the 3410a search through the Pal...

But I'm still not sure I want to do all this unless I am FORCED to OR (at a minimum) I KNOW that the data the Pal needs is actually being broadcast here in the SF area...

so are there still no others who have succeeded in getting data through the Pal??? and none in the SF area?

albertso - let us know what your unit is up to tomorrow!

I personally am loath to try it because it says that if it doesn't work, the only way to get OUT of it is with a complete hardware reset, which I don't want to risk because under no circumstances do I want to lose my recordings!


I don't think it will hurt stuff you've already recorded. At least that's never happened after a hardware reset on my DVD recorder but it's not a 3410a so don't risk it if you're not comfortable with it.

There is another way you might be able to force it. With the 3410a turned on, change the Pal to CBS using the g-link. Then hide the g-link so the Pal can't see it. When you shut off the 3410a it will try to change channels on the Pal to do the search but, since the Pal can't see the command it will just sit there on CBS passing the TVGOS data in the VBI if it's available in your area. The 3410a will surely report the wrong VBI channel in its service menu but I don't know that you care. Of course if it works you will end up with listings for different channels than the analog ones in your schedule right now. I don't know what that will do to your scheduled recordings. Again, you may not want to try it if you are really worried about losing something.

Phil

Note regarding Locking to current VBI channel with a 3410a. 963214785
I have tried locking from one channel to another, and did not encounter a problem doing so.... When data finally gets to Chicago, my plans are to take a locked to ch7 3410a, and change channel to 3-0 (Where DTVPal Resides) and lock it to that VBI.

In fact, last night one of my 3410a's stopped receiving data off ch7, and I re-locked it to CH7 again, and after it locked, and was power cycled, it started receiving data again.

OK Folks, I was the one who posted the lock channel process for the 3410 A a while ago, but that is not what I really wanted to do. What I want is to lock the DTVPal to channel x. It seems to get confused and scan channels that it thinks are local to me that are not. I am having no trouble with the 3410A finding and setting the correct TVGOS channel. I am having trouble with the data populating the guide.

I have started over with a First Birthday reset (Thanks Jan!), and I'll see how that works.

SixPack: One word is incorrect in your sentence about the DTVPal: DTVPal is an OTA ATSC converter which can supply ANALOG TVGOS data when in a special [CBS] digital host mode and tuned to an OTA CBS digital channel.


Gotcha! Thanks. So I'm SOL if not able to receive an OTA CBS digital host.

Other than CBS in the USA is/are there any other digital host(s)? OTA reception here is limited to Bellingham WA and Vancouver BC, where I believe CBUT Ch. 2 (CBC) is an analog source of TVGOS data. CBUT-DT Ch. 58 has recently begun service but Canada's mandated digital cutover is almost 3 years away. There are currently only 2 other receivable Vancouver digital stations.
http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/tvpage.htm
http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm

I stopped using my 3410A over a year ago because I lost the guide data. However, I'm setting up another TV and I thought I'd try using it again. But I do not get any guide data at all. Note that our local Comcast has promised us to provide analog signals for basic service for 3 more years.

The local CBS station is WBZ, and when asked about it providing TVGOS data and some confusion caused by Comcast they said:
WBZ feeds Comcast with an analog feed, separate from the HD feed Comcast takes off-air. This feed will continue beyond the analog shutdown date in June. The signal you are receiving on virtual channel 97 should be identical to the one you get off-air. I have been in touch with the Comcast folks about this. They will look into the feed to see if they have done anything incorrectly when changing from WGBH [Edit: the local PBS station] to WBZ on the virtual channel 97.

According to my colleague, Comcast "has always included a channel map position (channel 97 or 98 in the lineup in the Boston DMA ) that pointed to WGBH ANALOG so older cable card equipped sets (those that couldn’t handle the newer embedded TVG1/2/TVGOS data streams) could find the data in the VBI [Vertical Blanking Interval]. The funny thing about cable card sets is that once you insert a cable card, they will only tune channels that are present in the map of ours that it loads. We also do not encode VBI lines other then 21 in our MPEG2 streams. So if we don’t do this, VBI dependent cable card sets with cable cards wouldn’t find Gemstar VBI."

My colleague tells me he will send this thread to Gemstar to see if there is an explanation of the behavior you are describing.

I've been away from the 3410A discussion for so long that I've no idea what this means, but it seems to imply that WBZ should be sending TVGOS data that I should be able to receive via Comcast or via something like the DTVpal. Is that true?

Is there a thread where the basics of what one needs to do to be able to use a TVGOS analog based system like the 3410a in the upcoming digital age?

I think we all have questions regarding this.... Which accounts for the in-advertant mis-communications here, based upon the existing conditions we each see, manuals of unknown accuracy, and proceedures learned outside of normal channels.....

I'll be so happy to test this, once the data is turned on.

As of this weekend I have "borrowed" a 3410a from the wife, that I can do tests on in the basement...

Once data arrives, I hope to test things multiple ways, and post a list of what does, and does not appear to work, with relations to: Zip Code (PAL & 3410a), Forcing channels back and forth (3410a), and other Issues as they show up.....

Data must arrive before this can start, and at present, I'm not seeing any data in the VBI of the Video (or RF) output of the PAL, booted into TVGOS Mode, and it's CBS output.
(Chicagoland)

Jan J, (Or anyone)
I have been having issues with the GUIDE locking up, but not he entire unit. I have replaced the Caps in the power supply (as suggested earlier, 2 were leaking), am wondering what the 3.3v and 5v power should look like as it hits the main board (ripple, noise, etc)

My unit appears to have ~ 500mv of ripple/noise on both 3.3 & 5v supplies @ the mainboard connection. (This would typically be "bad" I'm thinking...)

I never measured noise/ripple on supplies. Did you just replace caps with existing values?

There are 3 3.3v supplies... Two on the PS board, and one (Fed from 3.9v supply) on the motherboard, with not much decoupling on motherboard. That's why I upgraded the 1000uf cap (Going from memory here -- C127??) on PS to 3300uf. Check up a page or so, I posted the caps that I changed, and what vaues. I think I upped a 5v supply cap from 1000 to 2200 as well.

Explain more about the crashes.... Symptoms of insufficeient 3.3v (via 3.9v) was fast scroll through TVG screens would lock up TVG. Is that it?

How many and which caps did you change, and with what?

after no guide data downloads for Saturday and Sunday, when I checked this AM, no data for Monday AND the host channel has switched from PBS analog 9 to CBS analog 5.

In the meantime my Sony 250, which had ALSO gotten no guide data Sat or Sunday (also from PBS analog), DID get Monday data, sticking with PBS analog

fun and games from Gemstar...

I'm still thinking about whether to stick my DTV Pal in front of my 3410a...I just wish it would convert ANY Tvgos data on the digital station it is tuned to, regardless of whether it's in TVGOS mode - it would make life a lot simpler for the 3410a if it would just be sent the ordinary converted data from CBS digital!

My lockups tend to be "overnight" or during long "off" periods. I have even set the guide to a channel where no downloads will occur simply to use a "timer" record but it still hangs. Typically, when I power the unit on, it will be VERY slow to startup with a very long audio lag... then going to the guide will move the picture to the upper left but no guide... I haven't noticed it hanging while scrolling around the guide.

As for the CAPs, I followed your recommendations from a while ago... seemed to make sense @ the time, but I don't recall any caps on the main board.... was that in your list?

As for voltages... all measure .1v > labeled aka 3.3v is ~ 3.4v, 5.0v is ~5.1, etc everything seems normal, nothing below stated values.

All 3 of wife's units, and one I'm working on in basement lost there data today.... (Chicago)

3 of the 4 units went to host 0x0... Re-locked each to 7-0

The one that kept 0x7 had a multi-hour gap in middle of TVG List today & tonight, but data returns tomorrow.

Been a while since I've seen that...

Also, one of the 3 close to one-another's clock is running 30 seconds late, compared to the other two, which switch nearly simultaneously...

Wierd!

P.S. No data off Pal

Other than CBS in the USA is/are there any other digital host(s)? OTA reception here is limited to Bellingham WA and Vancouver BC, where I believe CBUT Ch. 2 (CBC) is an analog source of TVGOS data. CBUT-DT Ch. 58 has recently begun service but Canada's mandated digital cutover is almost 3 years away. There are currently only 2 other receivable Vancouver digital stations.
http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/tvpage.htm
http://members.shaw.ca/nwbroadcasters/digitaltv.htm

I see from http://www.RabbitEars.info that for the first time a non-CBS TVGOS digital host has just been listed in Canada; CFTO-TV, a CTV station in Toronto.
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos

Vancouver's CTV station is CIVT-TV Ch. 32 analog (Ch. 33 digital) which can be received here with an indoor UHF antenna. Hopefully it may only be a matter of time before DTVPal can be used for OTA TVGOS conversion from Vancouver!
http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20080114/bc_howtofindus_080114

Hopefully DTVPal+ will still be available. The DVR version is currently sold out!
http://www.dtvpal.com/

The DTV Pal+ can be found at many Kmarts these days - so hurry and get one now.

After reading two or three pages of posts here it is obvious that the 3410A has no shortage of guide data issues. Mine has worked flawlessly for three years but now I have to reboot (unplug) the device every two or three days to continue to receive and retain guide data. I use the box exclusively for OTA reception and recording. Rather than go back here and try to read 5600 posts I have a couple of basic questions for folks here. Do I have a hardware problem now or is this a software/firmware or configuration issue? Will connecting and rescanning for cable TV provide any benefit? I'm not entirely sure how and where the guide data comes from. I gather it is received offline from my local PBS station?? I'm basically looking for a starting block to troubleshoot and/or trying to decide if sending the box off for repair is necessary.

After reading two or three pages of posts here it is obvious that the 3410A has no shortage of guide data issues. Mine has worked flawlessly for three years but now I have to reboot (unplug) the device every two or three days to continue to receive and retain guide data. I use the box exclusively for OTA reception and recording. Rather than go back here and try to read 5600 posts I have a couple of basic questions for folks here. Do I have a hardware problem now or is this a software/firmware or configuration issue? Will connecting and rescanning for cable TV provide any benefit? I'm not entirely sure how and where the guide data comes from. I gather it is received offline from my local PBS station?? I'm basically looking for a starting block to troubleshoot and/or trying to decide if sending the box off for repair is necessary.

I think NOBODY has a completely reliable one (or that person has never looked here for help). There does not seem to be an obvious repair.

Jan J thinks capacitors in the power supply are a factor, which would suggest electrical transients are the cause. But even after he puts in new caps, I believe it is only more reliable, not perfectly reliable.

Others think it locks up if it receivers errors in the guide data, which make it overly dependent on the who and how of guide data streaming.

But they ALL throw occasional (actually pretty frequent) errors of "no listings" or worse yet AV1 errors which keep it from performing scheduled recordings.

I'm hoping analog shutoff and no guide data will make it function better with manual clock setting and VCR mode time-scheduled recordings. I generally have better luck with timed recordings than guide selected recordings.

Mine functions essentially as a perfect "Murphy's law" device. If I am there watching something else, it always starts scheduled recordings perfectly. If I have actually gone out and am counting on it, it always screws up. But if it bothers to record, it makes a great recording.

After reading two or three pages of posts here it is obvious that the 3410A has no shortage of guide data issues. Mine has worked flawlessly for three years but now I have to reboot (unplug) the device every two or three days to continue to receive and retain guide data. I use the box exclusively for OTA reception and recording. Rather than go back here and try to read 5600 posts I have a couple of basic questions for folks here. Do I have a hardware problem now or is this a software/firmware or configuration issue? Will connecting and rescanning for cable TV provide any benefit? I'm not entirely sure how and where the guide data comes from. I gather it is received offline from my local PBS station?? I'm basically looking for a starting block to troubleshoot and/or trying to decide if sending the box off for repair is necessary.
Mine has worked reasonably well (also OTA) unti last May, but then it started needing frequent unplugs except for a 3-week period in December, when it switched its host channel from PBS to CBS. But then it switched back, and the need to unplug to reset the TVGOS reception resumed.

So I am convinced this is some kind of problem with the data coming in, and I am planning to wait it out until I make a switch to using the DTVPal to get the special data that it can convert to analog for use by the 3410a (and other devices that require reception of analog TVGOS data)...this special data has just started to be broadcast by CBS digital stations, at least in some parts of the country. (Generally, these stations had already started broadcasting, mostly months ago, the ORDINARY digital TVGOS data, for units that can receive the digital data directly.)

I am working my way up to trying the DTVPal, but don't know whether the San Francisco CBS station (which I know is broadcasting the ordnary digital TVGOS data) ha started broadcasting the data that's needed for conversion by the DTVPal...

You might want to check this website to see if a local station is thought to be carrying the (ordinary) digital TVGOS data: http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos

If it is, then it OUGHT to be carrying the data needed by the DTVPal soon (if not already)....although the complete transition may have been delayed by the recent push-back of the transition date....

A lot of people looking at this thread are waiting to see when the Pal will start working as a front-end for the 3410a (as promised by the TVGOS people), and - as I noted above - hopeful signs have been seen recently.

That's what I am waiting for and, based on my experience in December, when this need for unplugging to reset things disappeared, I'm hoping cleaner data will solve my problem (and yours, too)...Tony

So I am convinced this is some kind of problem with the data coming in, and I am planning to wait it out until I make a switch to using the DTVPal to get the special data that it can convert to analog for use by the 3410a (and other devices that require reception of analog TVGOS data)...this special data has just started to be broadcast by CBS digital stations, at least in some parts of the country. (Generally, these stations had already started broadcasting, mostly months ago, the ORDINARY digital TVGOS data, for units that can receive the digital data directly.)

Yeah, I think I'm with you. My 3410A worked for three years and continues to work after rebooting. I'm thinking there is some anomaly or conflict with the incoming data now. Yesterday all of my listings for today were filled in. This morning they were all "no listing". Almost like something overriding and deleting them overnight. I've never used my DVR for analog broadcasts as all my local stations here have been broadcasting digitally for many years and digital UHF are the only channels I activated. Are you implying that I may have been receiving TVGOS data via analog PBS transmissions regardless of the digital programs? Also, what is DTVpal? I really don't have room for another box unless it is something I can hang onto the incoming antenna cable or something.

But they ALL throw occasional (actually pretty frequent) errors of "no listings" or worse yet AV1 errors which keep it from performing scheduled recordings. Yeah I started getting an AV1 error dialog box when I switch on the 3410A and over to its associated input on my TV. That started about the same time as my guide problems. What is that error and how are these related?

...I've never used my DVR for analog broadcasts as all my local stations here have been broadcasting digitally for many years and digital UHF are the only channels I activated. Are you implying that I may have been receiving TVGOS data via analog PBS transmissions regardless of the digital programs? Also, what is DTVpal? I really don't have room for another box unless it is something I can hang onto the incoming antenna cable or something.
Like you, I only watch or record digital broadcasts, which is what I got my unit for. But, also like me, there is no doubt that you have been receiving TVGOS data from an analog station, because - ironically - that is all the 3410a can get it from. The DTVPal is one of the many much-advertised-in-the-last-year digital-to-analog converter boxes, but unlike others, it has a special mode that just turns it into a front end for devices that need to get their TVGOS data in analog form, as indicated in my post above.

The thread for the DTVPal is in a forum for converter boxes, and here is probably the first post in that thread indicating some success with that mode, actually by a guy who first posted in THIS thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15781722#post15781722.

This thread is already as long as the 3410a thread, all since last summer, and there are a lot of EARLY posts about the fact that the TVGOS mode was NOT working, but mostly about the fact that the Pal was (and still is) working not so well for ordinary use - though that is not relevant for OUR use, since the problems involve a timer system which is only relevant for those putting it in front of things like an ordinary analog VCR (that can only see analog broadcast)...

I'm not sure exactly where you can get these units now; they are pretty widely available, and there are newer versions available than mine, which is the original DTVPal, which MANY people ordered from Dish (it's actually the Dish DTVPal)...

Most of us got it early with the government coupons, though that also means we paid more; it probably costs around 50 bucks now, not much for (hopefully) extending the life of the 3410a, though of course that can be used in a manual mode without the TVGOS listings...

Anyway, that other thread is probably good for finding out about GETTING a Pal (which, by the way, should not be confused with the DTVPal DVR, which recently appeared on the scene, and which still has a LOT of problems). This thread will be the right place to see how the Pal is working with the 3410a..

And by the way, albertso, or anyone else...any good word???

That's what I am waiting for and, based on my experience in December, when this need for unplugging to resent things disappeared...Freudian slip? ;)

Really, if I had the LG myself, I wouldn't dump it. As long as you can always set timer recordings, it'll always be worth keeping IMO. You won't find anything (HD) from now on with that kind of PQ, for one thing. Possibly not with clear-QAM, and definitely not with NTSC, either - other than TiVo (plus, for some reason, the old LG tuners have a tendency to pick up a lot more of the normally scrambled QAM channels than other, newer tuners. A lot of newer, standalone QAM tuners are actually the opposite - they often have trouble picking up all of the what should be available local digital channels).

Unfortunately, I have the Sony DVR, which doesn't have manual time setting, and it's still up in the air whether or not I'll have a brick on my hands, at least for unattended recording. I'd still be tempted to keep it around for it's stellar performance as a tuner, though (I know - it's an "older generation chip" - but it still works fine in my situation. I don't have any major multipath issues here). I've got a Samsung DTB-H260F, and IMO, the PQ doesn't even compare, and feature-wise, it doesn't come close, either (nor with build quality - not by a long shot).

Really, if I had the LG myself, I wouldn't dump it. As long as you can always set timer recordings, it'll always be worth keeping IMO. You won't find anything (HD) from now on with that kind of PQ, for one thing. ....
Yes, I would hold onto the 3410a regardless; in fact I just ordered some more digital VHS tapes for the rare REALLY good thing I want to KEEP via my D-VHS recorder...only way I know to do this now, while avoiding establishing a computer setup next to my high-def system...

But I am still planning on the DTVPal front end starting to work; in fact I just copied a San Francisco ballet production off my 3410a to D-VHS, in preparation for a possibly calamity of resetting things when I get to trying the Pal again...

The DTVPal is one of the many much-advertised-in-the-last-year digital-to-analog converter boxes, but unlike others, it has a special mode that just turns it into a front end for devices that need to get their TVGOS data in analog form, as indicated in my post above.The snag in all this, that I don't think some people realize, is that in order to use it this way, you may only be able to record through the Pal's tuner (aiyeeee :eek:), and not the recorder's. And that would only be for OTA.

I really don't think the Pal is meant to be used with cable - the cable company has to be sending some kind of analog TVGOS signal for the 3410A to work, and for you to be able to record using the 3410a's tuner.

I know that's what some people may not want to hear, but that's how I see it, anyway. Maybe, hopefully, I'll be wrong for your sake.

The snag in all this, that I don't think some people realize, is that in order to use it this way, you may only be able to record through the Pal's tuner (aiyeeee :eek:), and not the recorder's. And that would only be for OTA....

hmm - I sure hope not, because what's coming out of the Pal tuner system is ANALOG; conversely, the 3410a will presumably ONLY record something that is coming from ITS tuner system:confused:(the exception being the firewire connection...)maybe what I just said is wrong...as noted I'm:confused:

I have to admit, I've always assumed that, once one had the TVGOS listings, one would get actual reception (and recordings) via the 3410a tuner...

You may be right - it's just that I have never actually heard anything about it working that way.

As far as with all the older v7 SD recorders, it's supposed to work the way I described, and with the LG not being able to actually convert it within itself, I've always thought it might be the same.

Also, people with Comcast are starting to report that their cable companies that have gone digital and stripped the analog signal are beginning to place an analog channel in the 90's that is still carrying it. And the ones that had that all along (it was not a totally uncommon thing) are starting to report that instead of it being the usual PBS station in that slot, it's changing over to the CBS one. Now, this is mainly with Comcast, so I can't speak for other cable companies, but if they are starting to concentrate their efforts on getting the analog data working in there like that, is the Pal really expected to play any part in it as far as cable?

Like I said, I'm not certain about any of this, but it does give you some things to think about.

Ram,

I have the Pal hooked up to the AV1 input to the 3410A, This does not affect the OTA HD programming at all, whether the TVGOS data is valid or not.

The DTPal special TVGOS mode seems to work as advertised, though I am currently having trouble getting valid data. The output of the Pal is visible on the AV1 input and it is really NOT good quality, but when I switch the 3410A input to regular OTA, it works fine in the excellent OTA HD mode we know and love.

I believe that my data problem is the data stream from the CBS HD station, When it worked in populated the Guide Screen just fine.

The DTPal special TVGOS mode seems to work as advertised, though I am currently having trouble getting valid data. The output of the Pal is visible on the AV1 input and it is really NOT good quality, but when I switch the 3410A input to regular OTA, it works fine in the excellent OTA HD mode we know and love.

albertso - I think the real issue is whether the Pal requires that the converted TVGOS data be put into the TV Guide with channel number labels that are DIFFERENT from the real channel numbers and, if so, whether one can set recordings from the guide that switch the real channels (coming directly into the 3410), rather than just a Pal-converted channel!!! If it's the latter, it seems to me that doesn't help...or does it?

is my question clear?

Well my guide data problem has been overcome by events. As of yesterday both primary (PBS) and alternate (CW) local affiliates have ceased analog transmission of TVGOS data. I don't have to worry about inconsistent data now as I am getting none at all. I also lost my time hack so my DVR won't reset date and time of day automatically anymore. I guess I just need to get used to recording without the guide. Making matters more cumbersome now, my local newspaper stopped printing TV listings several months ago. Technology progress sucks! :(

Yeah I started getting an AV1 error dialog box when I switch on the 3410A and over to its associated input on my TV. That started about the same time as my guide problems. What is that error and how are these related?

Your 3410A has external inputs AV1, AV2 for satellite boxes, cable boxes, etc. These are somehow selected and cause the error (even if you lock them out in menu setup). When you have the error, you can't even see the guide form, use the VCR+ button and previously scheduled recordings won't get made.

In this VERY long thread, there are no cures, but you get fewer errors if you lock out these inputs in menu setup.

Well my guide data problem has been overcome by events. As of yesterday both primary (PBS) and alternate (CW) local affiliates have ceased analog transmission of TVGOS data. I don't have to worry about inconsistent data now as I am getting none at all. I also lost my time hack so my DVR won't reset date and time of day automatically anymore. I guess I just need to get used to recording without the guide. Making matters more cumbersome now, my local newspaper stopped printing TV listings several months ago. Technology progress sucks! :(

I use TitanTV and also Zap2It websites for listings. TV Guide also has a website. I usually plan a week at a time for any recordings, but I try NOT to program the 3410A until the day of the recording because of its unreliability (if I'm home, I try to wait until dinnertime to schedule a primetime program)

Many of us don't know whether to hope for the guide being shut off or to be glad there is a short delay. Those of use who still get intermittant, unreliable guide data that causes the 3410A to hang up and throw errors would love to hear your guide-free experiences over the next few weeks:
*How accurate is the clock without clock data? Do you have to reset it often?
*Any problems timer-scheduling recordings?
*Any channel lineup problems?

The saving grace of this unit is that you can manually schedule recordings; I have done this for a couple of years now (since it stopped receiving guide data) without a single failure. The best thing that could happen (from my perspective) is if the TVGOS never works again!

Yep. Everything's flawless until it decides to try and load the TVG data. Then pbbbbt.

The analog shut down highlights one of the LGs most annoying feature. You can continue to set a manual recording schedule but without the automatic date/time stamp the box will not allow you to set or adjust the clock without deleting your entire recording schedule. I get power flops on a regular basis so now I'll have an hour's worth of manual reprogramming this stupid thing every time that happens and I have to reset the clock. The internal clock does not seem to be very accurate either. I set mine two days ago and have already lost a minute.

I still haven't seen anybody who's reported complete success using the DTVPal in front of a high-def device that requires analog TVGOS, so I've placed a post about this in a thread about TVGOS and the digital transition...my post is here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15863132#post15863132
Tony

PS I sure hope I'm soon proved wrong about what this may portend

Tony, your question on channel labels is clear, but I don't yet have an answer.

Will let you know if I figure it out. Lots of trial & error (mostly) right now.

PS: Nice summary post.

ATTENTION LG3410a owners in Chicagoland with Comcast Cable!!!

Comcast has stripped the VBI of TVG (and all other VBI) Data off of WLS-TV 7-0.!!!

I just checked 7-0 OTA, and TVG data is there... Except with 3410 set for Cable Yes, Cablebox NO, 3410 expects to see TVG off Cable, not OTA channels.

If you have Comcast cable, and are presently having trouble getting reliable TVG Data....

Switch to FOX WFLD TV and lock your TVG onto that channel.....

Fox is 12-0 here in Skokie.... May be different where you live...

More later....

This is NOT a Joke!

So I have now experienced 3 switches of host channel this week, back and forth from PBS analog, the usual carrier of TVGOS data, to CBS analog, the host channel today. This started with my failure of downloads for Saturday, SUnday, and Monday...at which point it had switched to CBS. For Tuesday, there had been a successful overnight download, after which the host was again given as PBS. Then successful downloads for Wednesday and now for Thursday, but the host is back to CBS.

Have others experienced host-channel switches like this? Just wondering, though I'm sure it's all attributable to Gemstar shenanigans..

I hope everyone interested in OTA has done a recent scan/re-scan for both analog and digital channels with their devices and tv's. Many stations in many markets went forward on Tuesday with changes. For example my local CBS chose to end analog (real rf ch. 9) on original schedule. They then ended their DT transmission on virtual channel 9.1 (real rf ch. 39) and moved DT back to real rf ch. 9 in the VHF band. My ABC-DT will be doing a similar move now in June when it will migrate back to the VHF band. :eek:

One good thing is coming from the Comcast Fiasco in Chicago....

It IS POSSIBLE to Re-Direct a Lock (FORCE) from one channel, to another channel!!!

You do not have to reset the system....

Just point to the new channel.... (In my case, I went from a lock of 7-0 to 12-0) and lock it at the new channel....

One more piece of information....

One good thing is coming from the Comcast Fiasco in Chicago....

It IS POSSIBLE to Re-Direct a Lock from one channel, to another channel!!!

You do not have to reset the system....

Just point to the new channel.... (In my case, I went from a lock of 7-0 to 12-0) and lock it at the new channel....

One more piece of information....
Hi, Jan - If by "lock", you mean the "force" to a host channel previously discussed, that's good to know, and we might want to have this important fact added to that earlier summary of menu codes, etc. Thanks! Tony

Yes!!! FORCE, Lock,

I went back and forth last night, running diagnostic in between the switch, and verified the switch back and forth was fine....
Tonight I'll check them all and verify all have new data....



Hi, Jan - If by "lock", you mean the "force" to a host channel previously discussed, that's good to know, and we might want to have this important fact added to that earlier summary of menu codes, etc. Thanks! Tony

Have others experienced host-channel switches like this? Just wondering, though I'm sure it's all attributable to Gemstar shenanigans..How does one determine one's host channel? Isn't data received when the box is off?

Follow up on this... I examined Comcast feed in the Chicago Loop...
Feed there is ok.... It's outside the loop (I'm in NW suburbs) where 7-0 has been changed from 7-0 feed to downconvert 7-1, which blows away VBI data (except for CC data).




ATTENTION LG3410a owners in Chicagoland with Comcast Cable!!!

Comcast has stripped the VBI of TVG (and all other VBI) Data off of WLS-TV 7-0.!!!

I just checked 7-0 OTA, and TVG data is there... Except with 3410 set for Cable Yes, Cablebox NO, 3410 expects to see TVG off Cable, not OTA channels.

If you have Comcast cable, and are presently having trouble getting reliable TVG Data....

Switch to FOX WFLD TV and lock your TVG onto that channel.....

Fox is 12-0 here in Skokie.... May be different where you live...

More later....

This is NOT a Joke!

How does one determine one's host channel? Isn't data received when the box is off?
Yes, the box downloads data when off, but service menus maintain a lot of detailed info.

Item 2 in this post:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13453320#post13453320
explains how to get to the first diagnostic screen, where the host channel and other info (most of which I know nothing about) is given.

I also append the entire text below, indicating where a change needs to be made on another important item - i.e., in item 4, the comment about needing a complete hardware reset to get out of that channel should be modified, based on Jan J's finding that once he had "forced" one channel, he could still "force" some other channel from that state.

text of above post

In an effort to keep current and perhaps future owners of our quirky machines up to date I submit the following:

Jan J has discovered some technical issues related to capacitors in the power supply and other portions of our aging machines. His efforts and expertise have restored new life to mine. Thanks Jan . See his recent posts documenting these issues if you suspect the beginning of hardware failure. Also look for cold solder joints on the TVG Riser Board which he found on mine.

In addition I felt it would be helpful to have a single post of the common user ‘fixes’ and tweaks that we use to keep our finicky machines working. Please add any I’ve forgotten or am unaware.

First thing to try when the 3410A becomes unstable or frozen: 10-second unplug/replug. (Fixes most problems).

Undocumented Features & Tips:

1. Factory Reset: (courtesy Jan J) Beware all recorded material will be lost from HDD! (You should have a composite [yellow rca, or s-video] connection to your monitor to see the diagnostic menu below).
“How to issue a real Factory Reset (What I call a "First Birthday") to the 3410a:
The following is done from the front of the unit, NOT with remote:
Turn the 3410a off. Wait 10 Seconds, and turn it back on again...
After the Hard Drive space Icon shows up, Change the Display Format to "VIDEO"
On Front of 3410a, Press "Left" button and "Select" button Simultaneously.
You should see "DIAGMODE:TS" on the front panel display. If Not, Press "Left" and "Select" again (some machines do it on first press, others take twice).
Now Press the "Upper" Button (selects #10 Factory Mode Init)
Then Press the "Select" Button
Then Press the "Select" Button a 2nd time.
You should see "WAIT:TS" and after a while "GOOD:TS"
Done.”

2. To find current TVG host channel: (courtesy Jan J)
Enter TVG Menu. Arrow up and highlight Messages. Press Enter. Enter 753159852. Page 1 of 30 should now show onscreen. Host channel is 3 lines below Zipcode on page 1. It is given in hex and must be converted, i.e. 0xD = channel 13. Safe and no loss of recorded programs.

3. To force scan for a new host channel: (courtesy Jan J)
Enter TVG Menu. Arrow up and highlight Messages. Press Enter. Enter 653214741. Turn off and GUIDE light should come on. Safe and no loss of recorded programs.

4. To force host channel if known: (courtesy albertso)
“The code 963214785 (Force Host Channel) will lock the Host channel to the channel in use when activated? There is some danger in using it though. Getting away from this selected channel requires a COMPLETE hardware reset, at least it did in my case. Here is the procedure:
1). Tune to the station, either OTA or Cable that you want to set as host.
2). Go to GUIDE and use the same process that you do to get the diag screen (753...).
3). Enter 963214785. If accepted the message box below will change to "Searching Current VBI Channel." The screen should go away by itself after 5 minutes or so. Wait for it...
4). Turn off overnight and see if the guide info downloads. The 753159852 diag screen should now show the channel you set (right or wrong!!!) when you check it. If you got it right and the channel is carrying the data, the guide should start to fill.”

5. To reset TVG/Slicing Data:
Enter TVG Menu. Arrow up and highlight Messages. Press Enter. Enter 653274147. Wait for the menu to clear and come back. Afterward do a 30 second unplug/replug. Leave off overnight. Should clear all prior TVG data and make a fresh start.

6. Change Zipcode in TVG Setup: [TVG Menu > Setup > Change System Settings]. First try selecting another local zip in your provider’s coverage area. Turn off overnight and see what happens. It that doesn't work try selecting a foreign zip and leave off overnight again. Next day set back to local zip. (May require several tries and failures before TVG becomes stable if using the latter method).


Some Important Documented Features & Tips:

1. Make sure host channel is turned ON in TVG. Use TVG Channel Editor: [TVG Menu > Setup > Change Channel Display]. If host channel is unknown make sure local analog Big 5 are turned ON. (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS).

2. Make sure host channel is turned ON in LG Menu. [Menu > Setup > Ch. Edit] Again make sure local Big 5 are turned ON if host is unknown.

3. Use TVG Channel Editor: Select no more than 50 channels to be ON for optimal TVG performance (per LG).

4. Disable unused inputs such as AV1, AV2. [Menu > Lock > Aux. Block > ON].

5. Run EZ-Scan again. [Menu > Setup >EZ-Scan]. (LG Menu, not TVG Menu).

6. Format HDD. [Menu > DVR > HDD Format]. (LG Menu, not TVG Menu).

Beware, these hints and tips are to be used at your own risk!

Tony, I updated item 4 in the undocumented section to reflect Jan's new findings. I'll try to keep it fresh with any new developments.

Note to Chicagoland Comcast users.....

Comcast returned the Vertical Blanking Information to the 7-0 Channel....

Some day, over a beer............

In an effort to keep current and perhaps future owners of our quirky machines up to date I submit the following:

Thanks for taking the time to edit and post this vital information and consolidating several years of knowledge and experience. If the 3410A had its own forum this would be an important sticky.

Thanks for taking the time to edit and post this vital information and consolidating several years of knowledge and experience. If the 3410A had its own forum this would be an important sticky.
actually, the summary post is due to rfburns...

By the way, rfburns, we had some discussion months ago about updating your post and somehow putting it at the FRONT of this thread, and I think Ken H said he was agreeable to making that happen...should several of us have a look at the detail in your post and then ask him to do that for us? It'll be a lot easier to find or refer people to if it's the first post or something like that!

Cheers - Tony

Tony, I would encourage you or anyone to take my post and turn it into the beginning of a FAQ for this thread or something similar.

My original post has become outdated because of the beginning of the digital transition and (loss/or not) of analog TVGOS data using third party hardware. Maintaining use of TVGOS has become the hard part. :(

Thought I'd already posted something a little earlier about this, but anyway...

In the DTVPal thread someone with a Toshiba TV with version 8 TVGOS has been trying to get data via a Pal and seems to have succeeded in a mode that ought to work for us (and I intend to try before long). Instead of resetting anything on his TV (because he found that following the DTVPal instructions for analog devices turned his TV into an analog only device), he simply tuned the DTVPal to his local digital TVGOS station, put it into TVGOS mode, then fed the converted output to his TV in parallel with this antenna feed. He apparently successfully got listings into his TV, even though he had it set to OTA and with his real zip code. Cf. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15877675#post15877675 and following posts.

This is how I was originally hoping the Pal would work for those with digital-tuner devices, so I hope it's real! It has the obvious advantage of not changing the setup on our units and just treating the Pal's output as another channel that our units are receiving...

(I've left a message some posts after the one above to ascertain whether he confirmed that his host channel was analog 3, i.e., the output from the Pal.)

update - he confirmed that he checked the host channel and that it's coming from the Pal

2 of the 4 units that I forced from 7-0 to 12-0, and then back to 7-0 are working fine...
Other two have channel lists, but have yet to get any listings, though they are trying....

During the switch back I was given 6 different lists to choose from, and 3 were identical in their selections.... However... Though 1, 2, & 6 were the same. Selecting 1 gave one list (inaccurate for my cable system) and #2, though indicating the same, gave Correct Channel numbers.... This is on all 4 units....
Since List 2 gave correct channels, I never tried list 6.....

MY GOODNESS are they screwing up lately!!!

Seeing that I'm only waiting for the repaired unit to get TVG data so I can test it... (the rebooting issue was fixed with that cap on the reset circuit---Second time I've fixed one with this symptom)
I'll shortly be down to 3 units.... But it was interesting to see 4 units do the same thing simultaneously! Talk about a smoking gun!!!

P.S. avnstf: I'm happy to see that post regarding DTVPal and 3 TVGOS using Real Zipcode.... I was hoping that would work that way!

Just got a call from someone suggesting that WFLD (Also a TVG V7 supplier in Chicagoland) no longer has VBI on the Comcast analog FOX channel....
Using a scope, I just confirmed that.....


Oh Joy!

For those of you with a way of confirming this....

Start looking for TVG on your CBS analog feeds via cable.... It may soon start showing up there.

This may be nationwide.


On another issue... Neighbor letting me borrow a DTVPal, which I've set up with my Zipcode... and in TVGOS mode...
Both Pal's in TVGOS mode, one with gooney unit Zipcode 00003 and other with 60076... both show no data...
When it turns on, we'll know if Zipcode matters....


Are we having fun yet????

Yep, Jan, we're having fun :) In fact, my fun meter is pegged...

I think I was teased by my local CBS Station. I got good data for all of 2 days. Now, the channels set up fine, and I get a clock set after only 10 minutes or so, but constant "No Listings."

I think I have everything set up OK, but, with the Digital cutover date slipped, the pressure is off of the TVGOS folks to "get it right."

Still checking every day. Will let you know if anything changes here in the DC area.

Say, thanks a million for putting this summary together. It's really well written and very helpful.

Well, I am doing my DTVPal experiment here in the SF Bay area. I hooked up the Pal again yesterday and, after reacquainting myself with its behavior, I have set it up as the only input to my 3410a. The Pal is in the TVGOS mode, set on CBS 5.1, which is the local source for digital TVGOS (and from which I have successfully gotten TVGOS data with my Sony 250 set in a test mode).

In the TVGOS mode, I had found last summer that the Pal basically acts like a high-pass filter (at least with respect to analog stations) for the antenna signal. So the only analog station appearing clearly (at least among channels 9 and lower) is the channel 3 output from the Pal itself, which is of course the converted 5.1.

I'm trying various experiments....leaving the LG overnight overnight, I THINK set to one of the digital stations and off as usual, I got no TVGOS download for next Monday, even though for the past 5 days, I had consistently been getting data from CBS 5 analog - that, however, is almost completely suppressed from the signal getting through the Pal, and I assume that is why I got no listings. Furthermore, I don't think the LG will go searching on its own if it has only lost one day's listings. (Am I right about this?)

This morning, fairly early, I set the LG on channel 3 (analog), and left it, and when I checked it just after noon, the guide light was not on, whereas it normally WOULD have been at this time if I had not made these changes, since 12:30 PM is in one of the normal analog download periods (about which more below). So this time, I used the 653... code to force a scan for a new host channel. When I turned the unit off, the guide light went on and, perhaps more significant, it was still on when I checked an hour and a half later. (I don't consider the guide light going on initially to be particularly significant, even though in the past I did...i.e., when it was routinely connecting with a regular analog host channel. However, yesterday, after I put the Pal in front of the LG, I noticed that whenever I turned the unit off, the guide light came on...so I now conclude that the guide light is on whenever the unit is EITHER looking for a channel OR actually downloading data...)

Anyway, I am curious to find later whether it actually FOUND a new host channel, which of course would show by a change in the diagnostic page you get with 753... AND with the appearance of fresh listings.

However, I realize I have no idea of WHEN listings might download. We know of course what the schedule for downloads from analog stations is. However, the schedule for digital TVGOS broadcasts is different, and I'm wondering WHICH schedule listings might appear on, with my test setup. I'll keep you posted of any results (including if there ARE none)...

Any thoughts about my question question about schedule, or what I'm trying would be welcome...

In the meantime, I'm resisting checking the unit until maybe 5 PM to avoid interrupting any download that might be happening (fingers crossed!)

update - unfortunately, after almost 5 hours of trying in the afternoon, my unit did NOT find a host channel, though the guide light was on - as far as I could tell - the whole time...furthermore, I hadn't noticed it at first, but the clock was wrong all afternoon; finally, the host channel now reads 0x0...I think I'll leave everything with this setup overnight, just to see if anything happens...but the fact that it doesn't even find a clock setting is discouraging...

FROM AVNSTF: update - unfortunately, after almost 5 hours of trying in the afternoon, my unit did NOT find a host channel, though the guide light was on - as far as I could tell - the whole time...furthermore, I hadn't noticed it at first, but the clock was wrong all afternoon; finally, the host channel now reads 0x0...I think I'll leave everything with this setup overnight, just to see if anything happens...but the fact that it doesn't even find a clock setting is discouraging...
END OF AVNSTF QUOTE

One of the 4 units I switched from 7-0 to 12-0 and back to 7-0 is exhibiting simelar problems, including clock being off by ~10 seconds.... It keeps locking to 0xB, which is channel 11, which is V8 TVG. Gets data light, but 'no listings'. I've found if I Force it to 7-0, it enters 0x7 in VBI area of TVG Diags, but I get either 0x0 or 0xB in Host area.

Other three are fine.... took the force without an issue...

On the problem child, I've:

1. Forced it to 7-0 on 3 different days. Logs 0x0 or 0xB as host, 0x7 for VBI. TVG Data Light, but No listings
2. Gave command to drop Host and find it again on 2 different days.... Logs 0xB as Host, 0x7 for VBI. TVG Data Light, but no listings.
If nothing happens by tonight, I'm gonna First Birthday it, and start over....

Now why 3 of 4 units 'forced' from 7-0 to 12-0 and back again without issue, and this one didn't..... Is beyond me...

Well, I am doing my DTVPal experiment here in the SF Bay area. I hooked up the Pal again yesterday and, after reacquainting myself with its behavior, I have set it up as the only input to my 3410a. The Pal is in the TVGOS mode, set on CBS 5.1, which is the local source for digital TVGOS (and from which I have successfully gotten TVGOS data with my Sony 250 set in a test mode)....
Well, we had a power outage around 3 AM that lasted about an hour (I'm guessing) that contributed to confusion this morning, and is probably the reason that I lost all my guide program data. And SOMETIME this morning, my unit found the PBS analog station, which was sneaking through the Pal...bad picture and virtually no sound last night, but this AM the sound on reception of that channel was good, which is probably the criterion for getting vbi data, including TVGOS. So I ended up back on PBS 9, with only partial listing (not including day 8) early in the morning, but I got day 8 on a later download, i.e., after I switched the Pal OUT of TVGSO mode and left it on pass-through.

So I've given up on the current attempt, the failure of which could be due to a lack of data that the Pal can convert and/or the possibility that the setup I was trying won't work. In any case, the fact that channel 9 leaks through messes things up.

NOW I'm just trying to get it back onto the CBS analog TVGOS, because my unit was completely stable with those broadcasts, whereas with the PBS broadcast, I have to keep resetting the unit, and even then I can't be sure of getting the download...

But I'm also wondering...when I use the 653... code to find a new host channel, do I then exit from the TV Guide screen where I entered the code, OR do I turn the unit off while still in that mode? Maybe I was using that command incorrectly...

I don't *think* it should matter, but fwiw I've always hit the power button immediately following the 653... command.


But I'm also wondering...when I use the 653... code to find a new host channel, do I then exit from the TV Guide screen where I entered the code, OR do I turn the unit off while still in that mode? Maybe I was using that command incorrectly...

[QUOTE=Jan J;15899568]
One of the 4 units I switched from 7-0 to 12-0 and back to 7-0 is exhibiting simelar problems, including clock being off by ~10 seconds.... It keeps locking to 0xB, which is channel 11, which is V8 TVG. Gets data light, but 'no listings'. I've found if I Force it to 7-0, it enters 0x7 in VBI area of TVG Diags, but I get either 0x0 or 0xB in Host area.
I get no listings even with TVG Data light on...

Other three are fine.... QUOTE]


First Birthday fixed it!!!!

But I'm also wondering...when I use the 653... code to find a new host channel, do I then exit from the TV Guide screen where I entered the code, OR do I turn the unit off while still in that mode? Maybe I was using that command incorrectly...


When I use the code to drop the current Host, and get a new one, this is the proceedure I've followed...

I'll send the commands in the TVG/MESSAGES/Show TVG Serial screen...
Enter the codes.... and you'll know if they "Took" immediately, as the screen will de-interlace (go to 1/2 resolution).
Wait.... a couple seconds later, it will go black except for window in upper left corner...
Wait... a few secons later the remaining remants of the TVG Screen will go away, and the present tuner channel will re-appear....

I wait a couple more seconds, then I power it down...

When I use the code to drop the current Host, and get a new one, this is the proceedure I've followed...

I'll send the commands in the TVG/MESSAGES/Show TVG Serial screen...
Enter the codes.... and you'll know if they "Took" immediately, as the screen will de-interlace (go to 1/2 resolution).
Wait.... a couple seconds later, it will go black except for window in upper left corner...
Wait... a few secons later the remaining remants of the TVG Screen will go away, and the present tuner channel will re-appear....

I wait a couple more seconds, then I power it down...
hmm...I'm not sure about the de-interlace, but all the rest happens when I use the code, and I then turn off the unit. However, it fails to change the host channel: in my case, I'm trying to go from PBS analog (which gives me listings, but I have to keep resetting the unit, at least daily, to get the NEXT set of listings) TO CBS analog, which - when I get it - has then given me completely stable listings, until a weekend when there are no listings, in which case it tensd to switch back to PBS (if I WAS on CBS) or vice versa...

So I guess I'll just leave it on PBS through the weekend or two, and see if there's another shift...

Weird error last night. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this?

I was recording a show on the 3410A, while watching something else on the TV. It starts on time, but about 4 minutes, I notice the display is scrolling "no signal". I switch the TV to the 3410A's output; sure enough no signal.

I fiddle with the antenna, stop the recording to check other channels, nothing works. I turn it off and back on, it works perfectly. I manually record the rest of the program.

Now the kicker. When I go to watch the recorded program, I check the 4-5 minute segment recorded while it displayed "no signal." The recording is PERFECT, never a flicker. It is (slightly) better than the recording I made manually after fiddling (which had a couple of minor pixelizations).

So the display LIED to me, AND it sent a "no signal" picture to the TV while making a perfect recording. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

When I observe an occurrence that makes no sense, I assume that I have made an error in the interpretation of the facts.

When I observe an occurrence that makes no sense, I assume that I have made an error in the interpretation of the facts.

Then you're obviously not an LST-3410A owner. :D

If you go near the beginning of this thread, you will see my name. I own three. I fought battles with LG that have been lost in the history of this product. The work of the early adopters helped to create the device that we love.

My comment to you was not meant to put you down. It was a statement of fact. When all else is correct the error is usually a human one of interpretation.

If you go near the beginning of this thread, you will see my name. I own three. I fought battles with LG that have been lost in the history of this product. The work of the early adopters helped to create the device that we love.

My comment to you was not meant to put you down. It was a statement of fact. When all else is correct the error is usually a human one of interpretation.

No offense was taken or intended. Twas just a joke, hence the :D. (Your comment wasn't to me anyway.)

I'm wondering about others' experience when using the 653...code to search for another host channel, and also with the code for "forcing" the unit to a particular channel...

In particular, if your unit already HAS a host channel that is giving it data, but there is another channel that is providing data, does the 653...command actually switch to the other channel? In my case, I BELIEVE that there are 2 analog channels providing data, but I have tried to make my unit to switch from PBS to CBS - because I think the data from CBS is more stable - but using the 653... code does not cause a switch. Have any others had this experience?

Of course, it is POSSIBLE that CBS stopped broadcasting analog data around the time I was trying this. So my next question is what happens if I FORCE the unit to the CBS station, but they aren't broadcasting TVGOS data? Do I screw things up irretrievably, or do I just NOT have a host station and can I still push the unit back to the OTHER analog broadcaster?

I know that Jan J recently said that if you force the unit to one station, you can then force it to another...does this mean that from that point on, you will always have a "forced" station? The 653... code won't work any more?

My first question above is due to the fact that I am just trying to understand what happened when I tried to get my unit to fidn converted TVGOS data via the DTVPal...

But my second question has to do with the fact that later (without the DTVPal in place), I've been trying (and failing) to get my unit to return to the CBS analog station...

I've seen that a couple of times, usually after a EZ Scan.... and TVG setup...

Your symptoms don't exactly match this, I know, but try this... Won't Hurt...

First, Determine which channel your HD channel is transmitting on...

For example, 2-1 is Channel 3 in Chicago.

Now, armed with this information....Go to regular Menu, and Channel EDIT...
you'll see a channel grid with channels Highlighted....
Go to the channel you need to "Fix" (I'll use Channel 3 as example)... Put cursor over it, and DELETE it from the list by hitting Select..... Then, Select it again to ADD it..... Then Exit out of the menu....

Believe it or not, I've found that to fix random "No Signal" situations....

No, I haven't been drinking, but now that you mention it.............. :)

Am I the only cable-only person getting a TVGUIDE light but only PSIP data? I found my VCR's are now receiving XDS clock signals, but not two Toshiba DVR's. My Sony HDD-250 DVR says CSPAN has VBI packets. It has full listings from CSPAN analog from my cable company. My LST-3410A has correct channel numbers and the network logo, but zero listings. I've done many resets. Once it warms up outside I will try some OTA reception, but have slim hopes since my location is not good, and there are no CBS channels with VBI data anyhow.

But I am curious. Am I the only person with CSPAN as a Host/VBI data provider?

Weird error last night. I'm wondering if anyone else has seen this?

I was recording a show on the 3410A, while watching something else on the TV. It starts on time, but about 4 minutes, I notice the display is scrolling "no signal". I switch the TV to the 3410A's output; sure enough no signal.

I fiddle with the antenna, stop the recording to check other channels, nothing works. I turn it off and back on, it works perfectly. I manually record the rest of the program.

Now the kicker. When I go to watch the recorded program, I check the 4-5 minute segment recorded while it displayed "no signal." The recording is PERFECT, never a flicker. It is (slightly) better than the recording I made manually after fiddling (which had a couple of minor pixelizations).

So the display LIED to me, AND it sent a "no signal" picture to the TV while making a perfect recording. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

I just recently had a very similar issue, but even weirder.
I was recording Lost, but my guide has been giving me fits, so I checked the output. Well, what do I see on the TV, but American Idol!
But I'm recording Lost, hmmm.
So I stop the recording at about 20 minutes, thinking I have just recorded some portion of AI, but when I check the recording, it is solid Lost all the way to the end!?
The ultimate for the 3410, record one thing while watching another! Unfortunately, it was American Idiot : ( I haven't seen this happen before or since.
Anyhoo...

I've seen that a couple of times, usually after a EZ Scan.... and TVG setup...

Your symptoms don't exactly match this, I know, but try this... Won't Hurt...

First, Determine which channel your HD channel is transmitting on...

For example, 2-1 is Channel 3 in Chicago.

Now, armed with this information....Go to regular Menu, and Channel EDIT...
you'll see a channel grid with channels Highlighted....
Go to the channel you need to "Fix" (I'll use Channel 3 as example)... Put cursor over it, and DELETE it from the list by hitting Select..... Then, Select it again to ADD it..... Then Exit out of the menu....

Believe it or not, I've found that to fix random "No Signal" situations....

No, I haven't been drinking, but now that you mention it.............. :)


Thanks. I'll try that if it repeats. It recorded OK on the same channel last night, so I'd prefer to hope it is a one-time thing

I can tell you that in Chicagoland I am:
1. Seeing what I believe to be TVG data on Comcast Analog 2-0, on lines 13, 14, 15, and data clock and separators on line 16 of the analog cable feed from comcast on WBBM channel 2-0 off Comcast.

2. I am NOT seeing any TVG Data on either of the DTVPal's, with either 00003 Zipcode, or 60076 Zipcode...

That is alll

There's talk over on the TVGOS thread. Anyone on this thread know any attorneys who might want to give this a try? :mad:

Picked up a TR-40cra in anticipation of a solution to the digital TVGOS issue. Wondering if KCBS or affiliates here in Los Angeles are carrying the guide data yet. The site below indicates that they have since last June.

This link identifies the local carrier of digital TVGOS by market:
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos#

TVGOS data delivery guide with technical details for incorporating analog epg info in the digital signal:
http://laurenstephens.net/uploads/3d927cc0e5.pdf

Forums over at DSLreports are suggesting that customers might need to put pressure on the local broadcaster to implement the above - with all of the problems surrounding the digital transition, the TVGOS issue is not automatically given highest priority.

Thanks as always to Jan and the others who delve into solving the minute technical details that make this technology manageable.

Joe

btw: unable to pickup guide data on Host Channel 0x1C (KCET PBS 28) for the past 7 days, despite numerous resets. GUIDE light remains lit, but I still get HostChan assignments and show a current LastSrcMap.

Well, I tried again to get my unit to switch over to CBS analog using the force channel code, but all I got was wiped out program listings, and my unit still using analog PBS as host channel. That means I have to keep resetting the unit each night with a short plug-unplug, if I want to get the next download. So after 2 days, I now have listings for days 1,2,3,7,8...a continuing pain...Wish I could get it onto CBS analog, because when it has been there (on 2 temporary periods), I haven't had to deal with this hassle...

And I hadn't done this before, but I used the so-called G* test on my Sony 250 (which has been completely stable in getting the version 8 listings from PBS analog) and confirmed that CBS analog is indeed sending TVGOS packets - so is CBS digital, but I have not tried again to see if I can get data from CBS digital via the DTVPal...I just don't think that's going to work while my LG can find even a snowy PBS analog...

The TVGOS Setup Data for my Charter Cable Lineup in Long Beach (CA) displays the Lineup as 0x467.

Is there any reason I might want to enter that data into the TR-40 "zip code" to pull in guide data for my cable setup instead of just OTA data for my area? The decimal equivalent is 01127. I would be curious if anyone using OTA only for their 3410a has a Lineup number that matches the entry in the TR-40 substitute "zip code" table. If someone reading this post is setup for OTA only, but does not have a TR-40 or DTVpal, post your Lineup value so I can compare it to the manual.
OR - here is a link to the DTVpal manual - the zip code substitution pages are just before the Appendices, pages 28-30:
http://laurenstephens.net/uploads/3d927cc0e5.pdf

OR - here is a link to the DTVpal manual - the zip code substitution pages are just before the Appendices, pages 28-30:
http://laurenstephens.net/uploads/3d927cc0e5.pdf
? This is not a link to the DTVPal manual, but rather to a technical document on TV Guide data streams, inserters, etc...

Jan J...I meant to ask you whether YOU have looked at the document linked above...a pdf document that defines 3 TV Guide data streams...it looks like the TVG1 is the normal digital TVGOS stream, TVG2 is a placeholder for future use as yet undertermined, and all the legacy data is a different data stream...see the document for details, if you haven't seen it before...

I would be curious if anyone using OTA only for their 3410a has a Lineup number that matches the entry in the TR-40 substitute "zip code" table. I
The alternate zip code is just the metro area's DMA number...it won't match lineups from regular OTA reception, which vary depending on much smaller localities...of course, you're saying OTA only...but in any case the alternate zip code will match a lineup with all those fake channel numbers needed by the DTVPal for pure analog devices...

I just got back from nearly a week out of town...

Gimme a day to catch up on my other email, and time to get 'up to speed'

Jan

This link identifies the local carrier of digital TVGOS by market:
http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos#


Yeiks! this data base shows that here in San Diego a Tijuana station (XETV) broadcasts the TVGOS data, not the local CBS affiliate. Unfortunately, I can't get Mexican stations OTA. I can (usually) get the Los Angles CBS station (119 miles away). What would be the implications of using that station? Will I only get the LA channel lineup? Does anyone know if KCBS in LA has started broadcasting the TVGOS data?

Here's the update from here.... Chicagoland.

CBS Analog 2-0 on Comcast cable has 4 lines of TVG on it...
Once my wife gives me a DVR to play with (I'm down to 3)... I'll force it to 2-0 For VBI
to see what happens... (I'm presently using 7-0, ABC on Comcast for my 3410a's, because I've got in-depth information as to how it's beinig insterted at the station... :)! )

I have 2 DTVPal's (Echostar TR40) booted in TVG+ mode, receiving CBS-DT...
One using 60076 Zipcode
One using 00003 Zipcode (Gooney Units for Chicago)
And Neither are showing any TVG in VBI of their output...

Jan

OR - here is a link to the DTVpal manual - the zip code substitution pages are just before the Appendices, pages 28-30:
http://laurenstephens.net/uploads/3d927cc0e5.pdf

? This is not a link to the DTVPal manual, but rather to a technical document on TV Guide data streams, inserters, etc...

Jan J...I meant to ask you whether YOU have looked at the document linked above...a pdf document that defines 3 TV Guide data streams...it looks like the TVG1 is the normal digital TVGOS stream, TVG2 is a placeholder for future use as yet undertermined, and all the legacy data is a different data stream...see the document for details, if you haven't seen it before...Now, that's interesting. I had assumed that TVG2 (0x0112) was for the analog VBI version(s) of TVGOS, but that document clearly says otherwise: the VBI version will be on 0x0110. My CBS station is sending TVG1 (0x0111), sometimes with data, and TVG2, but there is no 0x0110 stream at all.

Perhaps the poster who said his DTVPal is producing data or someone in his area can examine that CBS station's stream and report. All it takes is a PC-based digital tuner that either works directly with the free TSReader Lite program or saves the stream to a file that TSRL can examine. Any takers?

Now, that's interesting. I had assumed that TVG2 (0x0112) was for the analog VBI version(s) of TVGOS, but that document clearly says otherwise: the VBI version will be on 0x0110. My CBS station is sending TVG1 (0x0111), sometimes with data, and TVG2, but there is no 0x0110 stream at all.

Perhaps the poster who said his DTVPal is producing data or someone in his area can examine that CBS station's stream and report. All it takes is a PC-based digital tuner that either works directly with the free TSReader Lite program or saves the stream to a file that TSRL can examine. Any takers?
Actually, I'm not sure anyone on this thread has successfully gotten the 3410a to work with the Pal, although I believe albertso reported he was getting data, but that he hadn't gotten things to really work...I'm really curious to know how far along he has gotten (or anyone else, for that matter!)

But there are definitely people on OTHER threads who have gotten the Pal to pass data in the TVGOS mode...

Yeiks! this data base shows that here in San Diego a Tijuana station (XETV) broadcasts the TVGOS data, not the local CBS affiliate. Unfortunately, I can't get Mexican stations OTA. I can (usually) get the Los Angles CBS station (119 miles away). What would be the implications of using that station? Will I only get the LA channel lineup? Does anyone know if KCBS in LA has started broadcasting the TVGOS data?
re: Los Angeles. The DTVpal (mine is a TR-40cra) is receiving the TVGOS data OTA - can't tell you if it comes from CBS, but according to the station database, they started broadcasting last summer. I don't believe these DTVpal boxes can receive analog data. Anyone who knows otherwise please correct me.

The digital guide downloads in less than ten seconds immediately after the box is configured, not on a 4 times per day schedule like the analog version. The instructions for TCGOS Guide Plus section of the DTVpal manual mentions that it may take 24 hours to begin receiving data, and up to 6 days to fill out the 8-day guide (just like it does on the analog OTA guide).

Perhaps the poster who said his DTVPal is producing data or someone in his area can examine that CBS station's stream and report. All it takes is a PC-based digital tuner that either works directly with the free TSReader Lite program or saves the stream to a file that TSRL can examine. Any takers?

I have an HDHomeRun box hooked up to an XP Media Center box on which I can review saved CBS streams. I will download the TSReader Lite application and install it on same, but I need some assistance in understanding what to look for and report on.

I have an HDHomeRun box hooked up to an XP Media Center box on which I can review saved CBS streams. I will download the TSReader Lite application and install it on same, but I need some assistance in understanding what to look for and report on.Recent versions of TSRL are directly compatible with the HDHR, so you can either use them together to examine a station or save a clip and examine that.

To change input sources, hold down the CTRL key while you start TSRL. That will bring up a window labeled "Select input source." To use the HDHR directly, select "HDHomeRun_8VSB.dll" for antenna or "HDHomeRun_QAM" for cable. Use antenna if possible for this; cable may strip things off. If you're examining a saved clip, select "File.dll."

Since the HDHR has 2 tuners you'll be asked which one to use. Pick an appropriate one.

Now you'll be at the main TSRL screen and can either scan for channels or enter the desired actual channel. KCBS in LA is currently on channel 60 so enter that or choose it after the scan. Note that KCBS will move to channel 43 later, probably in June.

You'll get a screen with lots of information including a list of "Active PIDs." PID 0x0031 is video, 0x0034 is English audio, 0x0035 is Spanish audio, and there are a bunch of others. Look for PIDs 0x0110, 0x0111 and 0x0112. The latter two are called TVG1 and TVG2 respectively. 0x0110 may not be there at all; it wasn't when the TSRL dump I'm working from was posted to RabbitEars.info (last update 6/3/2008). http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/ca-lax/9628-0_0.htm for those who want to follow along.

Report which of the PIDs 0x0110-0x0112 are being broadcast and what the bitrate is for each. You could also record a snippet of each PID and look at it with a hex editor, but that's asking a bit much for a first effort.

I think Albertso was reporting partial success from the CBS station in DC, so if anyone in that area has the hardware to do this, I'd like to know what's going on there as well. As of 12/29/08, WUSA was reported as having TVGOS but the TSRL dump does not show any of those PIDs.

Several features are disabled in the Lite version of TSReader, including the ability to change channels. To do that you have to exit the program and run it again.:mad: Oh, well; if they put everything in the free version nobody would buy it.

JJ, evo, and avnstf,

I had luck with the TVGOS data only one period of a couple of days. Pulled down and posted 3 days initially. Since then, the 3410a locks up to the Host channel just fine, gets time, and changes the channels to the "dummy" ones called for by the ZIP of 0007, but no data ever shows up in the guide. The lock to the host channel is flawless, and it remains there with no problem.

My Guide station is the CBS local station here in DC, channel 34.1 (9.1). I am going to try to record some data from that channel into a file and look at it.

Will let you know what I find - if anything.

Yeiks! this data base shows that here in San Diego a Tijuana station (XETV) broadcasts the TVGOS data, not the local CBS affiliate. Unfortunately, I can't get Mexican stations OTA. I can (usually) get the Los Angles CBS station (119 miles away). What would be the implications of using that station? Will I only get the LA channel lineup? Does anyone know if KCBS in LA has started broadcasting the TVGOS data?

Tsreader shows that XETV-DT TVGOS data is carried both OTA and by TWC. See my post here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15708197#post15708197

If you have TWC basic cable XETV-DT is available to you as clear QAM. As of today my DHG250 is receiving full TVGOS listings from KPBS analog via TWC. When KPBS shuts off their analog transmitter, TWC may or may not continue to carry KPBS analog. Will have to wait and see.