LG LST-3410A Review and Discussion [Text View] - Page 24

tarzan_nojane

03-08-09, 03:12 PM

Report which of the PIDs 0x0110-0x0112 are being broadcast and what the bitrate is for each. You could also record a snippet of each PID and look at it with a hex editor, but that's asking a bit much for a first effort.

I setup TSReaderLite and reviewed the signal of my ATSC hybrid tuner (OTA signal) tuned to LA KCBS-DT on channel 60 (60.1). During the MSU-Purdue BB game I got the info you requested - the Video Decode window confirmed that I was reading the desired stream.

Transport Stream ID: 289 (0x0121)
PMT PID 48 (0x0030) - Program 1 KCBS-DT
PID 0x0110 - not present
PID 0x0111 - bitrate 17.51 Kbps (0.09%)
PID 0x0112 - bitrate 01.50 Kbps (0.01%)

I chose "Sort by PID" to make sure I wasn't missing 0x0110, to make sure it is not there. What about the 4x per day analog TVGOS update strategy - is it possible that this stream is not active 24/7?

I have also recorded about 70k of each of the two active streams and have the .bin snippets saved. What am I looking for when using a Hex Editor? This is probably moot since the 0x0110 data is not present.

Joe
___________________________________
"Hey buddy, you left your little manstep down..."

tarzan_nojane

03-08-09, 03:37 PM

the TSRL dump I'm working from was posted to RabbitEars.info (last update 6/3/2008). http://www.rabbitears.info/screencaps/ca-lax/9628-0_0.htm for those who want to follow along.

I have uploaded a 3/8/2009 data to my DropBox Public folder here:
TSRL_dump (http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/606463/KCBS-DT_20090308.html)

Included EIT data for what it's worth.

Joe
___________________________________
"Hey buddy, you left your little manstep down..."

ebo

03-08-09, 10:36 PM

tarzan_nojane:
Your PID bitrates indicate that 0x0111 was transmitting data when you tested but 0x0112 was not (although I've never seen it with data so I'm not sure). Although not really a hex editor since it can't edit anything, I like ListXP, free from many sites. Here's one: http://www.freewarefiles.com/ListXP-V_program_5032.html

I usually drag and drop files onto the ListXP icon on the desktop to display them in text mode. Press 'h' to switch to hex mode. You won't see anything intelligible in the PID streams but if a stream is mostly ff bytes it doesn't contain data.

Good job; thank you!

mdputnam

03-09-09, 12:19 PM

If you have TWC basic cable XETV-DT is available to you as clear QAM. As of today my DHG250 is receiving full TVGOS listings from KPBS analog via TWC. When KPBS shuts off their analog transmitter, TWC may or may not continue to carry KPBS analog. Will have to wait and see.

Interesting, I haven't received updates for about a month from KPBS in San Diego and assumed that they quit broadcasting analog TVGOS, hence my half hearted attempts to get digital data from the TR40. I'm OTA only so TWC won't help. Looks like raising the tower 10 more feet and adding yet another antenna to the antenna farm to get XETV-DT might be a solution, the wife and neighbors are going to love that!

catmother

03-09-09, 01:23 PM

Interesting, I haven't received updates for about a month from KPBS in San Diego and assumed that they quit broadcasting analog TVGOS, hence my half hearted attempts to get digital data from the TR40. I'm OTA only so TWC won't help. Looks like raising the tower 10 more feet and adding yet another antenna to the antenna farm to get XETV-DT might be a solution, the wife and neighbors are going to love that!

Can you get XETV analog on VHF ch 6 ?. There should be TVG data there. If the TR40 fails you, TWC does furnish XETV analog and KPBS analog on basic cable. It is abt $12 a month. Extended cable is not needed.

Still, $12 pays for a subscription to TIVO. The TIVO HD does OTA and will record and display all the local DTV channels you receive now..

So many choices and tradeoffs !

Rammitinski

03-09-09, 02:54 PM

...and has two tuners.

Pre-pay, and you can bring that $12 a month down even more.

Jan J

03-09-09, 03:02 PM

Since I'm still not seeing anything off DTVPal's (Either Zipcode), and Wife freed up a 3410, so I locked it to CBS 2-0 in Chicago.... Off Comcast cable feed.
Other two units are locked to ABC 7-0 in Chicago... Off Comcast cable feed.

Time will tell....

MrHifi

03-09-09, 03:36 PM

Here, near Annapolis, MD., WETA 26 and MTPS 22 have stopped broadcasting Analog data I believe. I can't get listings at all. I am using my (3) 3410A's like VCR's. They have to be unplugged/replugged before use and watched when it comes time to record. Only good now for recording when (2) MOT 3416's are busy.

Jan J

03-09-09, 06:59 PM

mdputnam

03-10-09, 11:29 AM

Can you get XETV analog on VHF ch 6 ?. There should be TVG data there. If the TR40 fails you, TWC does furnish XETV analog and KPBS analog on basic cable. It is abt $12 a month. Extended cable is not needed.So many choices and tradeoffs !

I'm on the ocean side of Point Loma so I have about 150' of hill between me and XETV. I think I may just blow off San Diego broadcast TV all together and wait for KCBS to start up with TVGOS and just watch LA stations which isn't so bad I guess since LA has about 15 stations versus San Diego's 6. I'm too cheap to pay $144 a year just to watch TV :p

alk3997

03-11-09, 10:35 AM

Looking through the recent appends, it appears those of us who try and try to keep the 3410a still working are still here. I haven't had too much time lately to try to keep the 3410a working.

However, I went to use it today and realized no matter how many plug/unplug cycles I did, I couldn't get the current time to update. I then got curious and found that the selected TVGOS station for Houston is 0. Yep, 0.

Does explain a lot. I'm doing a rescan right now to see if I can pick up the TVGOS signal. All analog and digital channels in the area are coming in fine (we didn't loose any analogs on the non-transition date).

Got to love a system that self-destructs when data isn't available. This just may be the 3410A last stand...

narkspud

03-11-09, 10:43 AM

Did you try setting the time manually?

alk3997

03-11-09, 11:24 AM

Did you try setting the time manually?

Thanks...Yes, I had forgotten the old trick of deleting all the timer programs stored and then (and only then) can the clock be set manually. It has been many years since I've had to set the clock manually.

OK, so I now have a digital VCR - but at least it is set to the right time. Thanks again for the reminder.

avnstf

03-11-09, 03:05 PM

As explained in a post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16019073#post16019073) of mine in the Sony thread, my two units - which have essentially always gotten their listings from PBS analog 9 - did not get an update from 9 for Tuesday (also confirmed by others on the thread), and someone else whose unit has been getting listing from CBS 5.1 also had no listings.

It occurred to me that this might be an opportunity to search and GET my 3410a back onto CBS analog as a host, which I had tried unsuccessfully a couple of times last month. At first I figured that - no - that won't work, because presumably CBS analog TVGOS is down, too.

But I had started, as it turns out, on Monday to monitor multiple analog and digital channels here, with the Sony's G* test, to check vbi or ATSC packet rates, and yesterday CBS analog 5 was still showing vbi packets on the G*test (whereas analog PBS 9 was NOT).

So last night, I used the 653... code above to search overnight for a new host, and - guess what! - this time it worked! When I checked a while ago, the LG had new listings for Wednesday (which my Sony did NOT have) and the LG shows CBS analog as its new host channel! Success.

But now the question - apparently for Jan J - is where did this code - 653214741 - COME from? I can't find it in the document I printed out about the TVGOS codes for the Sony, though I've posed the question in that thread whether they are aware of this code...if so, I'd be tempted to use it on that unit, too, at this point.

(Thanks for any info you can provide, Jan!)

Jan J

03-12-09, 10:25 AM

Whereas my attempt to lock onto CBS Analog 2-0 for TVG was at first successful, for the past 2 days we received "No Listings"...... The other two units are getting data from 7-0 ABC successfully.
So late last night I went back to 7-0 (ABC). As of this morning, I got the lists, and have some data.... I'll check tonight and tomorrow morning for more data...

Chicagland...

To rfburns: I'll scope channel 69 tonight when I get home.... I wasn't aware of just looking at the last two hex numbers.... Thanks

avnstf

03-12-09, 02:57 PM

But now the question - apparently for Jan J - is where did this code - 653214741 - COME from? I can't find it in the document I printed out about the TVGOS codes for the Sony, though I've posed the question in that thread whether they are aware of this code...if so, I'd be tempted to use it on that unit, too, at this point.

(Thanks for any info you can provide, Jan!)
Hi, Jan..I hope you noticed from a post above that I have been trying to parse the TVGOS codes for the Sony and LG and, given that the Sony users don't have the 653214741 code on their short list, I wonder where you got this code (which I finally used successfully Monday night to switch my LG to CBS analog, since PBS analog has stopped broadcasting). My guess is you got it via an interaction with Gemstar support, or something like that. If so, I would pose the question for them whether it should also work for the Sony...

Thanks - Tony

albertso

03-12-09, 08:11 PM

Jan J

03-12-09, 09:42 PM

Jan J

03-12-09, 10:23 PM

In my travels through my manual, I've come across some notes that came from others that I never have seen posted before.... So here goes...

Way back when, when I received the V1.17 firmware, I asked what the difference was between V1.17 and V1.15..... Here's the note I just found, and I'm transcribing it exactly as I received it:

" Jan, Sorry for late delivery of update. Ver 1.17 has that
1. Improved speed of channel changing time.
2. Audio problem fixed: there was no audio problem with TNT HD before.
3. When a copies program from DVHS was played with double speed, picture was broken. It is fixed.
That's the difference between 1.15 and 1.17. Hope it would help.

Regards"
Jong

Jan J

03-12-09, 10:30 PM

Someone else found this, not me.... But since it hasn't been covered recently.....

For those of you with the service manual.... Go to page 3-11.

Typographical Error!!!

Change "Shift + D" to "Shift + T" All else remains the same...

Jan J

03-12-09, 10:33 PM

For those of you with Service Manual:
Add this to Page 3-9

Serial cable wiring from 9 Pin PC to 3410a:

PC END-------------3410a END
Pin 2----------------Pin 2
Pin 3----------------Pin 3
Pin 5----------------Pin 5

avnstf

03-12-09, 11:52 PM

Tony,
I found a complete list of codes in the Sony DVR thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10665565&highlight=797654141#post10665565
The 653214741 you ask about is included in the list, so it should work for the Sony TVGOS system.
Hope this helps.
albertso...people in the Sony thread called this list to my attention, but it is clear this list is unreliable, and I suggested that very strong warnings should be posted about that, because - for most of them - I think it is a complete shot in the dark what they might do.

The most obvious evidence is what the list shows for codes we KNOW:
653214741 - scan for a new host channel - is described in that list as "cold reset", which has little to do with scanning for a new host channel. (Ironically, for the first time, I had success with this code a couple of days ago in switching my host channel, after one day of not receiving listings on my earlier host channel);
963214785 - force specific host channel - is described as "VBI search current channel". Whatever that means, it certainly doesn't sound like forcing to a specific host channel;
653274147 - reset TVG/slicing data - is described as "system reset", which the guy who initially provided this to me in a list interpreted as a complete unit reset; this one is right if you read it as "TVGOS system reset".

When this list was posted yesterday on the Sony thread, one guy tried 2 of the codes he hadn't seen before - one brought him to a particular screen, but the other locked his system up, so he had to do a reset...

I have been trying to parse the codes PARTLY because people are making mistakes because of misinformation.

For example, the Sony thread FAQs cite described 653274147 as reset slicing data, to more easily see how the data was changing. I did that on my Sony months ago and found that it reset my TVGOS to ground zero...I was really irked. So anybody who used that code based on information in Spiffy's FAQs was probably as shocked as I was...

As the other example, I have been trying to figure out whether 653214741 code for searching for a new host would work on the Sony (which it probably would), but having that guy in the Sony thread show me a list that describes it as a "cold reset" was no help at all, though (fortunately) I knew better...but the other people in that thread don't..

Anyway, I was also curious where you found out about the 963214785 code - if I remember correctly, you said something about finding it on the Sony thread, and tried it on the 3410a...is that right?

Thanks - Tony

avnstf

03-13-09, 12:00 AM

Tony... I went through my notes, and I apparantly got that number from the LG 800 support phone number.... Many years ago I got two numbers from them..
One was the 'Diagnostic' number 753159852
And the other one was the 'Drop Host and find another Host': 653214741
Jan
Thanks, Jan...someone in the Sony thread asked if I could post the codes being used for the 3410a, so I copied the piece of rfburns' post that had those codes. But I wanted to edit what I said to include where the codes came from so that people had some idea of their reliability...

By the way, as I noticed yesterday or the day before, I finally succeeded in switching host channels using the 653... code - however, this was in the situation where my original host had stopped broadcasting TVGOS data.

In my earlier attempts to switch host, my current host was still broadcasting, and I had no success...have others succeeded in using this code to switch host when the original host was still broadcasting?

Thanks - Tony

(I imagine that, in most circumstances, one would not be interested in switching hosts, if the one you were on was still broadcasting data - in my case, it was because, based on prior experience, I knew that my unit was more stable with the other host channel, i.e., no nightly reboot required to reset things.)

Jan J

03-13-09, 08:54 AM

I just sent the following to my TVG contacts:

Hello…. Wanted to alert you to something….
I have 3 LG3410’s…. (I shortly will be given a 4th for testing)…. All with V7 TVG on it…
I’m using Comcast analog cable, so me 3410a settings are: Zipcode 60076, Cable Yes, Box No.

I have TWO DTVPal’s in TVG mode… One set for Zipcode 60076, one set for Zipcode 00003. Neither have shown any TVG data on any lines in VBI.

A couple weeks ago, CBS Analog cable (2-0) on Comcast started showing TVG Data on lines 13 – 16. I waited a week, and last Saturday I switched one 3410a to CBS 2-0 via the “Force to Current VBI” commands. I checked the next day, and I was locked to CBS 2-0, and I had multiple cable selection lists, However, that was a problem: Multiple lists contained the same identical selection questions! I reset a 2nd 3410a and encountered this on a second unit, so I know it wasn’t a fluke. I selected the lists one at a time, until I found the correct channel listings for my cable channels.
I did get data for a couple days, but then, the Dreaded “No Listings” crept into the lineup for the day in question. TVG Data Light DID LIGHT on power off, but no Data was received….
After a couple days of this, with me confirming the VBI data was locked to 2-0, I gave up, and returned to 7-0 Lock for TVG…. So at this point, TVG V7 does not seem to be correctly working off CBS 2-0 in Chicagoland.
I Do have a scope where I can view VBI lines, and there is actually a little less noise on the VBI lines of 2-0 than 7-0. Since 7-0 works, and 2-0 doesn’t, it would appear that Noise is not the issue..

Also, another note: About 3 months ago, for about a month or so, in Chicagoland your cable lists actually contained OTA channels that were correct for OTA Channels. Prior to this, you used Cable channel listings, which doesn’t make sense because the 3410a will not receive this except through analog channels (where these channels do not exist), or, If I select Cable Yes, Cablebox Yes (Which I didn’t – see above) then I receive this via composite inputs, and why would I do this, as it is HDTV!! ??
So I re-direct the cable channel numbers to OTA channel numbers, and everything works fine!!!

Now my question for you on this is: 3 months ago, for a month or so, you finally sent the correct OTA Channels for OTA Logos, Which was great…… And then you stopped, and put them back to Cable Channels, which is un-useable….. unless you want to watch a downconverted NTSC image….
WHY? This makes no sense whatsoever!

Also... As long as I’m asking…. When will DTVPAL be decoding TVG in TVGOS mode????

rfburns

03-13-09, 07:24 PM

Question.... One of my 3410a's switched VBI from 07 [On it's own] (07 is where I would expect it to be, since I locked it to channel 7 off cable) to....

You ready for this? 1C01 !!!!

I'm still getting data, so I'm laying low for now.... but it sure was a suprise to see this!!

Can you phantom a guess what the channel number may be?

(If I use a scientific calculator and set it for HEX... and enter 1C01 and then hit DECIMAL, I get 7169... Analog Cable here goes up to 73 or 74...

OK.... Someone Educate me!!!

This is NOT the one I just switched to 2-0... (That one just gave me a program list---and I just selected the list, re-directed channels as appropriate, and then turned it back off... and it's getting data still)...

Jan, I deleted my prior post with my theory of the hex to decimal conversion because I gave the wrong pair of significant numbers of the decimal after converting from hex. I should have said the first two numbers. And maybe only the first number in channels below 10. Here is why:

When tuned to my OTA digital channels then going into TVG menu to find current vbi channel I noted all hex values then converted to decimal and began to see a pattern. See the attachment for explanation.

Do you see how the first one or two numbers of the decimal values keep pointing back to the virtual channel numbers of the OTA stations? So could 7169 be pointing to your OTA virtual channel 7?

I must admit I don't understand the extra numbers or any relationship to the real broadcast channel. It could just be coincidental, but my instinct says there is more.

ebo

03-13-09, 07:38 PM

I notice that my local CBS station, WRGB-DT in Schenectady NY has added the 110 PID that the document at http://laurenstephens.net/uploads/3d927cc0e5.pdf says will be used for analog TVGOS data and that it may have data on it now. Nothing I can decipher, mostly ff, but there's a pattern. Here's a sample:

ff ff ff ff 00 00 01 bd 00 b2 84 00 24 ff ff ff ff . . .
ff ff ff ff 99
d6 05 ed 16 3a 2f 3b
d6 05 ee a6 09 e7 16
d6 05 ef 36 68 41 00
d6 05 f0 01 01 01 01
d6 05 cd a0 3f b2 86
d6 05 ce a6 96 46 16
d6 05 cf bf cf 16 14
d6 05 d0 b6 9e 83 c2
ff ff ff ff . . .

ff ff ff ff 00 00 01 bd 00 b2 84 00 24 ff ff ff ff . . .
ff ff ff ff ff 99
d6 05 ed ee 98 f5 f5
d6 05 ee 6e b7 ee 97
d6 05 ef 00 51 a6 00
d6 05 f0 01 01 01 01
d6 05 cd c0 80 01 8e
d6 05 ce a6 86 26 a6
d6 05 cf 7e e1 ef 89
d6 05 d0 cd 19 6e 43
ff ff ff ff . . .

ff ff ff ff 00 00 01 bd 00 b2 84 00 24 ff ff ff ff . . .
ff ff ff ff 99
d6 05 ed de 69 4f 91
d6 05 ee df 6a 2b 5f
d6 05 ef 00 b4 18 f0
d6 05 f0 01 01 01 01
d6 05 cd 86 d8 35 74
d6 05 ce 4e 60 30 a6
d6 05 cf c9 e2 cd 2f
d6 05 d0 ef a2 0b ba
ff ff ff ff . . .

I've added carriage returns where they seem to make sense. The lines beginning d6 05 have 5 more bytes; I suspect the 05 tells the decoder how many bytes to expect. The next byte starts at ed and increments to f0, then starts over at cd and increments to d0 for a total of 8 lines. My WAG is that these are for the 8 different lines in the VBI (13-16, odd and even fields) that will carry 8 versions of TVGOS analog data. The remaining 4 bytes contain the data for the line.

I suppose I'll have to spring for a couponless DTVPal to see if it's decoding anything.

albertso

03-13-09, 07:58 PM

HI Tony,

I did not mean to imply that the codes could be used without jeopardy. I have tried many, with no issues, but some do cause a lock-up. We all use care with things like this, right :D

I finally found my source: http://www.spiffspace.com/sonydvr.html#Section2

Look at paragraph 2. That is where the instructions I posted a year or so ago came from. I got a print copy from another source, but finally was able to Google it and found the original source.

Hope this helps your research program.

avnstf

03-13-09, 09:21 PM

I finally found my source: http://www.spiffspace.com/sonydvr.html#Section2

Look at paragraph 2. That is where the instructions I posted a year or so ago came from.
yes, thanks - I'm familiar with that document, and - from what you had said sometime earlier - I suspected that was where you had gotten the code for forcing to a specific host channel...

lgdavis

03-14-09, 02:45 PM

I believe there's a very simple reason that nobody is seeing the legacy TVGOS signal aired yet on 2-1 in Chicago.....

For the 3410 to get guide data from the DTVpal, you would need to combine it's normal OTA antenna feed with the RF out of the pal - using a 2-way splitter as a mixer into the antenna input of the 3410.

How could it possibly work as long as WBBM is transmitting digital on Channel 3?

The DTVpal passes it's converted TVGOS data via RF on Channel 3, the TVGOS from the 'pal would be obliterated by the OTA DTV signal of Ch 3. So this cannot possibly work in Chicago, until WBBM moves to Channel 12.

I believe this is why we're seeing posts of DTVpal success in other markets - but Jan's scope still shows nothing.

Rammitinski

03-14-09, 05:27 PM

I feel I should mention again that whether or not an OTA station is sending the signal might not necessarily have anything to do with whether a cable company has it inserted or not.

So anyone talking to someone at an OTA station about it is not necessarily going to be getting any information that will tell you if you'll get it from your cable company at the same time the OTA channel starts broadcasting it - unless the question/situation's clear to that engineer, and they have some specific, definite information on it (like direct from the cableco or Macrovision).

If you want to know if your cable company will be carrying it, you really should be talking with your cable company and/or Macrovision (Macrovision usually will deal with the cableco's on your behalf).

avnstf

03-14-09, 07:20 PM

How could it possibly work as long as WBBM is transmitting digital on Channel 3?

The DTVpal passes it's converted TVGOS data via RF on Channel 3, the TVGOS from the 'pal would be obliterated by the OTA DTV signal of Ch 3. So this cannot possibly work in Chicago, until WBBM moves to Channel 12.

? I believe that the DTVPal default output in on channel 3, but you can change that to 4 if you wish...

Jan J

03-15-09, 12:11 AM

I believe there's a very simple reason that nobody is seeing the legacy TVGOS signal aired yet on 2-1 in Chicago.....

My answer: That's because there isn't any TVG on TVGOS off the DTVPal yet!!! :(!

For the 3410 to get guide data from the DTVpal, you would need to combine it's normal OTA antenna feed with the RF out of the pal - using a 2-way splitter as a mixer into the antenna input of the 3410.

My Answer: Actually, I'm notching out Channel 3 of my Cable feed, and inserting the CH3 of the DTVPal into the cable feed, then distributing it through the house!!

How could it possibly work as long as WBBM is transmitting digital on Channel 3?

My Answer: The DTVPal is going to decode it off Channel 2-1
and output it on Channel 3 out of the DTVPal...

The DTVpal passes it's converted TVGOS data via RF on Channel 3, the TVGOS from the 'pal would be obliterated by the OTA DTV signal of Ch 3. So this cannot possibly work in Chicago, until WBBM moves to Channel 12.

My Answer: I'm doing it on cable.... If I was intent on doing that for an OTA signal, I'l Notch out Channel 3 and replace it with DTVPal's CH3.

I believe this is why we're seeing posts of DTVpal success in other markets - but Jan's scope still shows nothing.

My scope shows nothing because NOTHING is as yet being decoded by the DTVPal booted into TVGOS mode yet! The scope is looking at Demod'd Video off TV, and also the Video outupt of the DTVPal. If it ever starts being sent, I'll find it....

At present, I tried locking to the3410 off CBS 2-0 off Comcast, but after 3 days, the data became so corrupt I got nothing but "No Listings"
I'm hoping it will get cleaned up and I'll try it again, with a loaner unit I'm trying to borrow from a neighbor.... (The unit I tried to lock to 2-0, is now back on 7-0 and working fine...)

philcstuart

03-15-09, 01:43 AM

963214785 - force specific host channel - is described as "VBI search current channel". Whatever that means, it certainly doesn't sound like forcing to a specific host channel

I can guess where that odd wording comes from. Using my Panasonic DVR as an example, it normally searches channels 1-99 for TVGOS data in the VBI. It looks at a channel for 73 seconds and, if it doesn't see the data, changes to the next channel in the sequence and listens for another 73 seconds and so on. If, however, I tune to a specific channel then enter the 963... code it still does exactly the same thing except the list 1-99 is replaced by that single channel. So now it listens to that channel for 73 seconds. If it doesn't see TVGOS data it changes channels to the next in the list which is the same channel again. So basically it keeps "searching the current channel" for VBI data effectively forcing a specific host channel.

Phil

avnstf

03-15-09, 02:06 AM

I can guess where that odd wording comes from. Using my Panasonic DVR as an example, it normally searches channels 1-99 for TVGOS data in the VBI. It looks at a channel for 73 seconds and, if it doesn't see the data, changes to the next channel in the sequence and listens for another 73 seconds and so on. If, however, I tune to a specific channel then enter the 963... code it still does exactly the same thing except the list 1-99 is replaced by that single channel. So now it listens to that channel for 73 seconds. If it doesn't see TVGOS data it changes channels to the next in the list which is the same channel again. So basically it keeps "searching the current channel" for VBI data effectively forcing a specific host channel.

Phil
That's very interesting (and amusing)...just out of curiosity, how do you know that that unit scans 73 seconds per channel? (is there some readout you can see?) and once it goes through the 99 channels, does it stop or start over again?

Actually, in another thread I saw that someone with an analog unit had used either this code or the 653... code, and I wondered where he(she) had learned about the code...how about you? was the code mentioned in a manual or somewhere else (and described adequately?)

Cheers - Tony

JoeKustra

03-15-09, 08:26 AM

[cable only, no box, no OTA]

I feel I should mention again that whether or not an OTA station is sending the signal might not necessarily have anything to do with whether a cable company has it inserted or not.

So anyone talking to someone at an OTA station about it is not necessarily going to be getting any information that will tell you if you'll get it from your cable company at the same time the OTA channel starts broadcasting it - unless the question/situation's clear to that engineer, and they have some specific, definite information on it (like direct from the cableco or Macrovision).

If you want to know if your cable company will be carrying it, you really should be talking with your cable company and/or Macrovision (Macrovision usually will deal with the cableco's on your behalf).

I wish they would tell my cable company what to do, but the Macrovision web site states (for my zip code):

"
We have confirmed with your cable provider that you should receive TV Guide/Guide Plus+ listings after the digital transition. If you are not receiving listings or if your listings discontinue, please contact your cable provider for more information.
"

On my LST I have a clock, channels, but no listings from my cable provider since PBS stopped. My Sony DHD gets both from the same channel. That leads me to believe that my TVGOS channel (CSPAN) only sends data in a format that V8 can understand, not V7. But I could be wrong.

lgdavis

03-15-09, 10:03 AM

My scope shows nothing because NOTHING is as yet being decoded by the DTVPal booted into TVGOS mode yet!

The whole point I was trying to make is that (perhaps) the TVGOS people see no reason, at this time, to insert the V7 data into the 2-1 signal because:
1. It's still works from 2-0 and 7-0, here in Chicago.
2. With the 2-1 OTA signal still up, normal, average folks (other than us geeks), will have problems trying to use the 'pal for TVGOS resulting in confusion, returned boxes, etc.

I suspect that the V7 data will appear here right around June 12.
My 'pal will be ready....

philcstuart

03-15-09, 12:07 PM

That's very interesting (and amusing)...just out of curiosity, how do you know that that unit scans 73 seconds per channel? (is there some readout you can see?) and once it goes through the 99 channels, does it stop or start over again?

I measured the time watching my DTVPal back before there was any v7 TVGOS data to convert here in Houston. You could see the DVR sending the next channel to try to the Pal via the g-link because the LED on the Pal blinks as each digit is received. This would happen every 73 seconds. After it reaches the last channel it starts over from the bottom. I'm just guessing but maybe they chose 73 seconds because that's long enough to not miss data when you look at a channel and 99 channels then equals 2 hours. It seems to take my unit about 2:05 to do a full scan so the 1-99 range I quoted may be slightly wrong.

Actually, in another thread I saw that someone with an analog unit had used either this code or the 653... code, and I wondered where he(she) had learned about the code...how about you? was the code mentioned in a manual or somewhere else (and described adequately?)

I've never tried the 653... code so I'm afraid I can't give you any more info there. As for the 963... code, I just read about it from one of the many posts scattered about the internet. When I enter it my DVR displays the "VBI search current channel" message you mentioned.

Phil

avnstf

03-15-09, 06:22 PM

I measured the time watching my DTVPal back before there was any v7 TVGOS data to convert here in Houston. You could see the DVR sending the next channel to try to the Pal via the g-link because the LED on the Pal blinks as each digit is received....
Phil
Thanks for the info - it's interesting that you can use the Pal to infer how the DVR works! (Of course, I use my Sony to understand what's broadcasting TVGOS - because it has a test for packets - and that helps me understand what's happening with my 3410a...)

rockin robin

03-15-09, 08:13 PM

Hi all!!

I also own an LG LST3410a which had been operating exceptionally well until January. Since then I have spent countless hours searching every forum I could find to see why my TVGOS stopped working. I emailed both Macrovision and Comcast president Rick Germano (Mr. Germano emailed AND called me the very next business day!!!) as well as the engineers at CBS and PBS in my GBA(46) West Palm Beach, FL with limited success so far. Spattering of listings here and there but nothing reliable since mid-January 2009. Still trying to pinpoint the location of the data passage failure??

Anyway, I think I found a code which I believe corresponds to Sony's G* test. (I hope I am refering to the right test?) It was in a Mitsubishi TV Guide On Screen PDF manual along with some technical data about data passage, VBI lines and a comprehensive flow chart for diagnosing TVGOS issues among other things. (Forgot where I got it but I can try and find the link)

This test brings up a test screen with vertical rainbow stripes and what I believe is the "packet information" I have been reading about on other forums. I tried it on my 3410a as well as my Philips HDRW 720 and it worked for both! Both units have the same version 7 software showing on the diagnostics 753.. test.

Go to MESSAGES
Press SELECT
971397135

Shows Flash test
VBI test
ATSC test
GLink test
(one other test I don't remember right this second)
Also shows A Packets, B Packets, errors, etc.

Just thought I would pass this along. I don't think I have seen this code anywhere else. As I said I did try this on two different V7 DVRs with no complications.

Hope this helps someone. Here's hoping somebody gets to the bottom of this SOON!! I REALLY miss my TVGOS!

Robin
Jensen Beach, FL
GBA 46
Comcast extended basic-no box

avnstf

03-15-09, 11:38 PM

Anyway, I think I found a code which I believe corresponds to Sony's G* test.
...
Go to MESSAGES
Press SELECT
971397135

Shows Flash test
VBI test
ATSC test
GLink test
(one other test I don't remember right this second)
Also shows A Packets, B Packets, errors, etc.

Interesting...do you perform the test while you're tuned to a channel that you want to test for packets? And (assuming there are any packets on ANY channels), do you see the packet count starting at zero and then increasing at some rate, e.g., 1, 2, or 3 per second? (That's how the Sony G* test works..)

It would be interesting to know where you found this info, because - who knows? - there might be MORE interesting info along with it!!

Thanks - Tony

PS does your TV (or other TVGOS device) also have a digital tuner?

MrHifi

03-16-09, 05:50 AM

None of my 3 units gets any data now. I've tried a First Birthday" repeatedly. i've set it up as an ota only and a cable and ota without cable box. Nothing. I am in Davidsonvile, MD and until January sporadically received OTA from WETA and sometimes from the cable from WMPT. Both ar PBS.

Does anyone in the Washington/Baltimore area still receive TVGOS data?

wookatok

03-16-09, 10:39 AM

albertso

03-16-09, 08:24 PM

Hi Tony,

That code 971397135 is on the Chapter 2 listing I pointed to above as "Enter Factory Test Screen".

I have looked at it too, but never see any packets. I'm beginning to think, as lgdavis mentioned, that TVGOS codes are not yet being sent. I still think they were, for a short time, before the June slip occurred.

rockin robin

03-16-09, 09:47 PM

Hi avnstf!

Here is the post containing the PDF about the G* test. It took me awhile to find it again but, here ya go:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15152637&postcount=2035

Originally posted by myoda on 11-25-08 on the TVGOS-post your info here thread of the Rear Projection Units forum here on AVSforum. It does have some really helpful info inside. The PDF attachment in this post is the from Mistsubishi Electric Expander (A Mitsu publication?? not sure??) giving details about various things about TVGOS.

QUOTE: "This special edition of the Expander details the hardware and software functions of TVGuide On Screen...It includes a troubleshooting proceedure (flow chart) detailed enough to determine the cause of almost any malfunction"

Hope it helps someone.

As for me, the only two TVGOS units I own so far are the LG LST3410a and the Philips HDRW720/17. Both have Version 7 of TVGOS and from what I understand both are analog dependent. Whereas the 3410 has no dvd recorder, the Philips unit is equipped with a 120 gb hard drive as well as a dvd player/recorder and the ability to archive programs to disk. I saw some LG televisions about three years ago equipped with a hard drive and TVGOS at Bestbuy. I really wanted one of those!! But, unfortunately did not have the 2 grand at that time.

I got word from my local CBS broadcast engineers here in West Palm Beach, FL (GBA46) that both the analog and digital signal should be back on by next weekend. Comcast says their end is already fixed. Mine has been basically non-functioing since mid-January.

Someone here wished for a smiley for "keeping my fingers crossed." (Insert here!)

Robin
Jensen Beach, FL

avnstf

03-16-09, 11:19 PM

Hi avnstf!

Here is the post containing the PDF about the G* test. It took me awhile to find it again but, here ya go:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15152637&postcount=2035
...
Someone here wished for a smiley for "keeping my fingers crossed." (Insert here!)

well, good luck, and thanks for finding that...it's a brief but in many ways a much more detailed description and diagnosis for TVGOS than I have seen anywhere else, although I'm not sure about the admonition NOT to do the vbi test unless you KNOW the channel has good TVGOS data!?

But I think I'll print this out and then take it down to look at along with the diagnostic data directly from my 3410a..

Thanks again - Tony

albertso

03-17-09, 08:51 PM

Thanks, Robin, Nice find. Been playing with some of the codes. This may tell me more about what I am really seeing.

rockin robin

03-20-09, 10:55 AM

Hi to all!

Obviously, this is a very simplistic question but...

I set up my 3410a cables exactly as described in the manual. i.e.: Cable directly to back of unit from the wall (I have no cable box), Antenna (small indoor RCA rabbit ears) into ANT on back of unit. Red, Yellow, White RCA cables attached from back of unit to TV as pictured in Manual on page 12. TV is CRT analog RCA model. There are no other devices attached to 3410a or the TV.

Problem: Unless I use a 2 way splitter to the TV prior to attaching to the back of unit, TV does not work independent of the 3410a. Blue/Snow screen shows on TV with the unit off. Manual does not address this?? I have had my TV 3410a set up with the splitter since I first bought it over a year ago but Macrovision says I am not getting TVGOS data because I have a "cabling issue inside my home" so I took out the splitter. Then the TV wouldn't work.

Am I doing something wrong? Was there a misprint in the manual? Do I actually need a splitter to use the TV without the 3410a being turned on? I think I remember that I originally put the splitter in because I couldn't use the TV without the LG turned on.

Sorry so simplistic a question but...

Thanks for ALL you do!!
Robin

MrHifi

03-20-09, 02:45 PM

Hi Robin,

You have two issues I believe... No TV and no TVGOS.

First, you must use the splitter. No getting around that. Put it back.

Most of us no longer get TVGOS data. It is just not being broadcast in an easily accessed, reliable manner at this time.

Use your 3410A like a VCR.

rockin robin

03-21-09, 06:32 PM

Thanks Mr HiFi for the info.

Why do you suppose that the LG manual for the 3410a does not mention this?? Doesn't really matter. I hooked the splitter back up. Should I use an amplifier to boost the signal?

As far as the TVGOS goes, the attached document says that Macrovision is committed to keeping our analog devices operating during and after the eventual digital transition! Not sure if you have seen this yet. It also outlines the workaround process required to keep our analog devices receiving the Guide data. As you probably know, it is a VERY intricate system and all the pieces must fit together just right for the analog/digital signals to get transmitted properly.

I found this PDF here on AVS. Not sure on which forum or thread I first found it. I have seen it referred to several times in various AVS threads. (Search for "laurenstephens" for the posts that have referred to it.) Perhaps you, too, will find it useful??

Last Saturday, I personally emailed this PDF to the Broadcast Engineer at my local CBS station. CBS's Senior Broadcast Engineer emailed me back on a SUNDAY!! He had never seen it! According to Macrovision and the tech at Comcast, CBS and my local PBS station are supposed to be carrying my TVGOS data. Since I had his ear already, I asked him if he had any pull with Comcast. CBS's Senior Broadcast Engineer spoke to my tech at Comcast the next day! :cool:

It really pays to be persistent and NICE. As of Friday March 20, 2009, I think that maybe, just maybe, my local Comcast office, Macrovision and my local CBS and PBS stations are ALL finally talking to each other!!!!! At least that's what Comcast's tech tells me!! :D I should have data very soon!

Comcast reports that there have been many issues regarding the data transmission in my area lately. PBS has been off and on for at least a month and CBS has been having some data transmission problems as well. I managed to get the phone number of the tech at Comcast who is working on this issue after a complaint letter to the President of Consumer Relations at Comcast. I found it on Comcast's website. They called me the NEXT business day!! The tech called me soon after that! It has taken about a month but I thinks my TVGOS data should return soon. It pays to be persistent!

Anyway, don't give up. If Macrovision's website has said your service will continue, then perhaps an email to whoever is supposed to be carrying the data at your local station(s) would get the ball rolling. I looked on my local CBS stations' website and went to the contact list and found the Broadcast Engineer's email address. I also put in a trouble ticket at Macrovision AND sent my complaint letter to Comcast in an effort to get this fixed.

So far, it seems to be working for me. Maybe it could work for you as well!

Good Luck

Robin

MrHifi

03-22-09, 09:35 AM

Robin,

I appreciate your tenacity. Many of us have been fighting the 3410 wars for almost 6 years. These units are finicky. They are far too dependent on what is becoming an outdated mode of transmission. While workarounds should be possible, so far success appears to be spotty. Good luck my friend.

avnstf

03-23-09, 06:48 PM

I don't think I posted this excerpt earlier from a post in the Sony thread, though I had meant to:

"Response (George Piandes) - 03/19/2009 01:03 PM
Hello Collier,

As per our phone conversation, KPIX (CBS) has our new digital equipment installed, but we are still awaiting corporate CBS to allow us to turn on the SCTE 127 data. I am attaching a word document for collecting diagnostics. If you would like to follow the instructions to collect the diags and fill out the doc. and send it back, we would be interested to see what data your guide is seeing.
Thank you."
from http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16089700#post16089700

As noted in the data-stream document discussed above in this thread (that is MOSTLY, but - I think - not ONLY about cable), one of the streams (the SCTE 127 data) is for legacy devices (which are supposed to be supported by the DTVPal)...this email is consistent with the notion that that stream is not yet introduced into the broadcasts in most areas of the country...and in particular here in the SF area,

WHERE, by the way,neither my Sony nor my 3410a has been receiving downloads since Saturday or Sunday...AARGH!

But, for some reason the Macrovision guy who sent that email thought the SCTE 127 data was also necessary for the Sony, which - if true - must be in some complicated way - given that many in that thread have been getting downloads (albeit not in a stable way) from digital CBS digital stations without the presence of that data stream

who can figure all this out?

tasbro

03-24-09, 02:37 PM

Yikies - our Detroit PBS is going to turn off analog on April 16. Last time I checked, a couple months ago, my 3410 was still getting guide data from them (ch. 56). I am OTA only, and it has been very reliable.

http://www.dptv.org/dtv/index.shtml

I guess we'll see what happens when they turn off. I have my DTVpal ready to hook-up, if it'll do any good...I confess, the whole DTVpal discussion has been very confusing.

JohnS-MI

03-25-09, 08:11 AM

Yikies - our Detroit PBS is going to turn off analog on April 16. Last time I checked, a couple months ago, my 3410 was still getting guide data from them (ch. 56). I am OTA only, and it has been very reliable.

Same situation, but without the reliability. My unit throws a lot of "no listing" and AV1 errors.

I'm hoping it will be more reliable (in VCR mode) without the TVGOS. Remember we lose the clock too, and have to set manually

rockin robin

03-25-09, 03:20 PM

Hi all!!

Yesterday, under the PROMOTIONS tab on the TVGOS menu I saw an entry for "Guide system re-initialization." When I scroll down to this item, on the bottom left it reads (in the place where the ads would normally be) "Are you having trouble getting a lineup or listings?" When I pressed the INFO button (or left arrow) the screen instructs you to go to the SETUP menu and use the Zip 00000. Then turn unit off for 5 minutes and when you turn it back on again use your correct zip. It claims that listings should return within 24 hours.
I am pretty sure I have seen this reset method posted on other threads in this forum but this is the first time I had heard of it appearing on the PROMOTIONS menu within the TVGOS menus.

Worth a try!

Robin

avnstf

03-27-09, 05:51 PM

more doom and gloom..

My 3410a, which has been on host channel PBS 9 for most of this week has barely a dribble of listings for next week..say 10% on 3 of the days, and today at noon, when I checked the diag menu , was the FIRST time in a week that it had anything for LastDLEnd besides n/a (which I take to mean failure)...it actually had an end date/time (earlier today)....so I was hoping that it would start a download at 1:45 PM this afternoon, but it didn't (judging by the guide light)

With regard to stations showing "vbi" packets on the G*test of the Sony...only PBS 9, and CBS 5 and 5.1 see to have them...I might try to push my unit back to 5 overnight to see what happens...

my Sony hasn't been getting listing for next week, either, though I just noticed today that it DOES have listings for next Tuesday (although it didn't have them when I checked on Tuesday...very odd...the Sony has downloaded days 1,2,5,8 since last year some time, so the appearance of Tuesday today is a day 5, as though the unit did download day 5, but didn't get day 8...:confused:

avnstf

03-30-09, 01:06 AM

more doom and gloom..

update...now have listings only for 3 days (from PBS 9), just like my Sony...

Most of the postings in the Sony thread also report short-changes to varying degrees on our 8-day listings...guess TVGOS can't afford to send more ;)

Jan J

03-31-09, 08:32 AM

Anybody in Chicagoland successful in getting TVG into 3410a off 2-0 from comcast cable?

Thanks... (I'm embroiled in a computer project/problem, that's why I've been quiet..)

jcg

04-02-09, 02:04 PM

I've had a 3410 since they came out, but am thinking about moving to a Tivo HD. My cable provider Comcast just stopped broadcasting analog channels 38 and above, so I was forced to get a cable box so I opted for the Motorola DVR box. Prior to this I used a ReplayTV for analog recording and the 3410 for HD recording, and now I have a 3rd cable DVR. If I go with a Tivo HD and can reduce 3 boxes down to 1, and it is tempting?

I'm just wondering if anyone else that has a 3410 also has a Tivo HD and if the OTA tuner in the Tivo is as good or better than the 3410?

jcg

Rammitinski

04-02-09, 02:06 PM

It's considerably better because it's of a more recent generation.

More sensitive and better multipath handling.

wilsonsoohoo

04-02-09, 02:41 PM

The Tivo would simplify your setup quite a bit. You can still archive OTA network stuff using Tivo to Go over your ethernet network. If you are willing to pay Tivo's subscription fee, there are plenty of other perks as well. The user experience with a Tivo is in another universe compared to the Motorola DVR Comcast provides. The OTA receiver is plenty respectable.

If you go the Tivo route, get a TivoHD and not the Series 3 like I have. The Series 3 does not support the second tuner in an M-card and Comcast does not give out S-cards. What that means is that an Series 3 would need two M-cards and Comcast would charge for the second one. If you get a Tivo HD, you would only need one M-card and it will save the aggravation of dealing with the Comcast idiots to convince them that 1) you need 2, not 1 M-cards; and 2) you really have one DVR and TV, not two.

jcg

04-02-09, 03:08 PM

avnstf

04-02-09, 07:56 PM

One other question on my 3410. I can't change the clock anymore and wondering if anyone has any idea what could cause that? I've turned the unit off/on and if I go into menu/clock the date/time is just grayed out and I can arrow over to it????

jcg
have you unplugged the unit for 7 or 8 seconds (or maybe it's 15 for this purpose)...?....when it's gotten into a state with the wrong time and unable to reset, that's fixed it for me...

that's also what I've had to do each night, ever since May, to get overnight listings from PBS 9)

jcg

04-03-09, 01:00 AM

OK, I guess when I was unplugging it I didn't leave it unplugged long enough. This time I unplugged it for a couple minutes and then when it powered back up I could change the clock. Thanks.

jcg

have you unplugged the unit for 7 or 8 seconds (or maybe it's 15 for this purpose)...?....when it's gotten into a state with the wrong time and unable to reset, that's fixed it for me...

that's also what I've had to do each night, ever since May, to get overnight listings from PBS 9)

Jan J

04-04-09, 11:46 AM

Here's a sad update:
When I went on vacation over a month ago, I turned off both DTVPal/Echostar TR-40's I have set up for TVGOS (One set for my zipcode 60076, one set for 00003), because neither were getting the (promised) TVG in VBI on their outputs... and I figured that I shouldn't bother wasting electricity waiting for something that was "thought to be ready shortly" as of last August....

Emails to Gemstar, Macrovision, or whatever their name is this week have not been returned since last December..

Phone calls (yes, I have a couple) have got to voicemail that hasn't been returned...

Last night I turned both DTVPal/Echostar TR40's on, and examined them with a scope..
STILL NO TVG in TVGOS Boot mode!

Turned them back off again...

They deserve to be roundly slapped!

avnstf

04-04-09, 09:56 PM

...
They deserve to be roundly slapped!
I agree, and they've been screwing around with what DID work, to boot...

Since PBS 9 resumed TVGOS transmissions here, it's been touch and go to get data, but beginning a few days ago my unit has been fairly consistent at updating days 1,2,3 regularly...today I also found a day 8 - maybe they've momentarily gotten back to the good old days....we'll see how long it continues, and what happens the NEXT time they try to start rolling out the legacy data stream...I hope they they do a better job of it than they did in February (or was it early March?)

avnstf

04-06-09, 08:17 PM

Well, what do you know? For 3 days, I've gotten day 1,2,3,8 downloads! Two more and a full house. (And my host channel has switched back to CBS analog 5.)

(AND, although this morning early, all I had left on my Sony in the way of listings was day 2, NOW I have days 1,2,5,8, and once again NO host channel!?! Will wonders never cease?)

Does this mean they're working their way up to trying the legacy stream again? Or is this the way it's going to be until just before the new transition date? I guess I hope it's the first, despite the further screwups we may have to put up with...I'd rather get things screwed up while there's still a fall-back position, rather than when there's none...

Anybody else seen a change today? Tony

anyhoo

04-06-09, 10:39 PM

I could write a short book on my saga with my beloved 3410.

It first started months ago with the guide locking up and not receiving guide data at all.
So I decided to try to upload shows to my G4 Mac that I got for free from work.
I was successful with capturing both HD and SD material, but I was getting serious horizontal banding with HD material.
And it took HOURS to go from the 3410 to DVD.
For an hour show, real time transfer to Mac (1 hour), 3/4 hour to transfer from Mac to PC, editing time, and then burning time.
It would be worth it (amazingly) if not for the banding issues.
If anyone has any brilliant ideas on eliminating banding, I would love to hear them : )

But back to guide stuff.
I was experiencing the BSOD and freezing of the guide screen while scrolling, so I ordered every capacitor that Jan J mentioned in his various posts.
After changing out all the caps Jan suggested, crossing my fingers and plugging it in, it worked!
Thanks Jan!
Alas, this only lasted a day or two, and then I would just stop getting listings.
I didn't know it at the time, but this may have been when all the TVGOS shenanigans were going on within the past month.
Also during this time, the external case I was using to swap HDD's crapped out and actually wiped one of my drives.
I tried so many things to get guide data, including changing zip codes to a similar one to my actual zip and then back again, changing to 00000, trying out my DTV Pal with actual zip code, alternate zip code and every combination of both using combiners, and finally doing the "First Birthday" reset.
Looking back now, it was probably just coincidence with all the TVGOS issues but, after doing the "First Birthday" and then using my actual zip code, I started getting listings again.
However, I was only getting sporadic listings.
Some channels would have no listings, some would have listings for days other than 1, 2, or 8, but these were always programs that ran every day of the week, or movies or sports programs (i.e., shows that ran longer than an hour).
I was also not receiving day 8 listings, so I was thinking that things weren't looking too good because this would mean I would only have 2 or 3 days of
listings at the most.
But lo and behold, this last Saturday I got listings for the next Saturday, and right now I have listings for next Sunday and Monday, as well as today,
Tuesday and Wednesday, partial listings for Thursday and Friday.
I also saw where the listings would stop at 7:00 Central time, usually the broadcast stations.
I should mention I am in St Paul, MN using Comcast cable and my Host Chan is listed as the local CBS station (Ox16 is channel 22-0 analog).
So, I am VERY happy to have guide data back and working.
Thanks to all who post their experiences.

End of (short) book.

narkspud

04-07-09, 01:06 AM

I was successful with capturing both HD and SD material, but I was getting serious horizontal banding with HD material.
And it took HOURS to go from the 3410 to DVD.
For an hour show, real time transfer to Mac (1 hour), 3/4 hour to transfer from Mac to PC, editing time, and then burning time.
It would be worth it (amazingly) if not for the banding issues.
If anyone has any brilliant ideas on eliminating banding, I would love to hear them : )

Your banding might be due to improper deinterlacing of the 1080i picture. Get the free program MPEG Streamclip (http://www.squared5.com/) and export at SD resolution with interlaced scaling. That may fix it.

anyhoo

04-07-09, 03:04 PM

Your banding might be due to improper deinterlacing of the 1080i picture. Get the free program MPEG Streamclip (http://www.squared5.com/) and export at SD resolution with interlaced scaling. That may fix it.

Thanks for the tip, I will have to get back into the upload mode of things and give it a try!
My ultimate goal was to capture and burn in HD for my inevitable foray into BluRay, but baby steps might be in order.
The only thing I don't like about this is moving the 3410 down to where the Mac is, anyhoo...

JoeKustra

04-08-09, 05:44 PM

I have not had program listings since the end of January. I've done various resets, diagnostics and so far no luck. I do get a channel line up and a clock from the feed sent over my C-SPAN channel. I am cable only with no chance of OTA ability. I believe my cable source is Comcast. In eastern PA or NYC, is there a channel that sends listing now? I've checked my PBS station, both analog and the clear QAM channels. Only one channel has shown to have VBI packets (C-SPAN), and that is shown as my VBI channel. It passes the LG and TVGOS diagnostics too. Just no listings. I can live with this HD VCR operation, but would just feel better with a program listing. And yes, my TVGOS light comes on frequently. Thanks.

avnstf

04-08-09, 09:10 PM

Well, what do you know? For 3 days, I've gotten day 1,2,3,8 downloads! Two more and a full house. (And my host channel has switched back to CBS analog 5.)
...

Finally, I have a full 8 days of listings again!

(And my Sony does, too, in its case apparently from CBS 5.1 - though it really had its ups and downs over the last 3 days: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16227536#post16227536)

Tony

rChaz

04-09-09, 04:45 PM

Finally on Apr 7th my listings & channel grid were re-populated out of the blue, after being MIA for the last month or so. Host Channel is back to the local analog PBS station (NYC area), where it had been prior to "blanking".

Up until completely disappearing, all had been mostly reliable as long as I pulled the plug for 2 secs once each day before watching - which also avoided TVGOS /AV1/2 lockup issues.

Funny, hadn't pulled the plug in a while since it did no good & the LG hadn't locked anymore (time-shift viewing, etc.), even with plenty of vainly monkeying around with the TVGOS Menu system. 1st day w/TVG back in action & got the "no response except power-off" freeze.

POWERFUL

04-09-09, 08:25 PM

I noticed the TVGOS data coming in again too. Nice to know I wasn't alone.

WyvernSting

04-11-09, 06:21 PM

I wanted to chime in here. I own an LG 42LB* series TV (with a cablecard unit and a built in DVR). In early March 2009 I stopped receiving updates or my TVGOS.

I am in the Tri-Cities area of Washington and have Charter Communications as my local cable company. I have had a handful of technicians from the cable company come out to take a look at the issue but they are all left scratching their heads.

In the spirit of trying to help them diagnose the problem, I have contacted LG to get a second opinion on the issue. The LG technician had me run a few diagnostics to figure out what might be the problem... and it boils down to this: There is no Host Channel being broadcast in my area! (or at least, there is no channel (PBS or otherwise) which is delivering TVGOS data to my unit). I am hoping to hear more information from LG as they work directly with Gemstar (TVGOS) this next week.

I also want to confirm 2 codes that he had me run for diagnostics on my box.

753159852 -- used to access the information panel within my unit. This was done in the TV Guide screen, within the Setup menu, and highlighting "Change System Settings". (Don't go into the Change System Settings screens, just have the blue bar highlighted and type in the code). It would appear that this accesses a LARGE "map" of screens accessible by pressing the Left/Right/Up/Down arrows to navigate the map.

653274147 -- used to hard reset TVGOS completely! This code will power down the unit and appears to completely flush the TVGOS data (part of the diagnostic process to see if any channels filled in the data over the next 24 hours).

I hope that someone with the same problem, and an LG product, will find this post useful.

The LG technician confirmed that Gemstar/Macrovision/TVGOS has stopped passing Host Channel data to MANY geographic regions post-Feb19 and they have no estimate on when it will be back up and running. As I hear more from LG I will post it here.

frances50

04-14-09, 12:12 PM

JoeKustra

04-15-09, 03:10 PM

I'm trying to watch the VBI packets using the Gemstar test. I select the channel I know packets are coming in on (15), then use Select and "left arrow". The channel always changes to 19 and the tests all fail. Any help?

Jan J

04-15-09, 03:16 PM

That sounds like new infomation....

Could you please post more detail on what you are doing?
I'll check on a unit here in Chicago (locked to ABC 7-0) and see if I come up with anything different....

Are you doing this on a 3410a or something else?
Jan

WyvernSting

04-15-09, 08:06 PM

avnstf

04-15-09, 09:19 PM

Who do I talk to in order to find out which channel is supposed to be the Host Channel for my area?

Oh, and your comment about response is starting to look accurate. Charter Comm hasn't responded since last week. But I've got the guys business card, and know the Regional Director personally... so I suspect they'll be hearing more from me. ;)
I don't know what area you are in...you might want to add your location to your personal profile, so that it will show on your posts (check the side of mine)...

To my knowledge, we have no direct way of checking on the 3410a whether there is an local analog host.

I have another unit, the Sony 250, that DOES have a test for the presence (in a particular station's broadcast) of packets that MAY carry the TVGOS data. You may want to post a request in that thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=537711) to see if there is someone in your area who has a Sony who may know if there is an analog station still carrying the TVGOS data...it would probably be someone who is familiar with using the so-called G* test to count "vbi packets" on the station the unit is currently tuned to...

(I have the feeling those who have Sony's wouldn't be too happy if a LOT of 3410a owners made this request on their thread, but a few wouldn't be a big deal. Also, for your information, that thread has a LOT more activity than this one, probably because there are more of those units out there, but perhaps also because these units can IN PRINCIPLE get TVGOS data from digital broadcasts and owners have spent a lot of time during the last year trying that, as well as coping with the more recent on again/off again TVGOS broadcasts from both analog and digital stations....as a final note, there are indications that Sony is finally working on a firmware upgrade for their unit that would make digital stations their primary source of TVGOS data, rather than analog (as is the case with the present firmware)...

Cheers - Tony

(Finally, I should say that I don't know much about the issue of TVGOS via cable, since neither of my units have cable...)

tasbro

04-17-09, 02:18 PM

In the Detroit area, our PBS analog station turned off yesterday. Thus, I am no longer getting guide data.

What is the theoretical set-up to try to use a DTVPal tuner to convert the digital TVGOS data for the LG-3410 (for an OTA only set-up)?

Here's what I think I've read:

Antenna line is split in two (a & b):
"a" goes to the DTVPal antenna-in
"b" is then re-combined with the coaxial "TV Set Out" out from the DTVPal

This "re-combined" signal goes to the antenna-in of the LG-3410.

For the DTVPal, do a channel scan and then enable the TVGOS mode.

For the LG-3410, do one of the many un-plug/soft reset/change the zip code resets, but then enter the "substitute zip code" from the DTVPal manual for my area.
Then, I just wait for the guide to re-populate and enjoy my DVR as usual?

avnstf

04-17-09, 04:11 PM

...
Then, I just wait for the guide to re-populate and enjoy my DVR as usual?
Yeah, but if it's "as usual", you will be the first person in this thread to succeed!

JohnS-MI

04-18-09, 12:41 PM

In the Detroit area, our PBS analog station turned off yesterday. Thus, I am no longer getting guide data.

I was expecting no data after Noon on Thursday. However, my guide light has been on several times since then, and the guide has data. (I was afraid the guide light meant it had flaked out, as the guide has NOT been reliable).

I looked up the diagnostic code and ran the diagnostic screens. The host channel is now channel 2 (at least for version 7 TVGOS), and my unit is chock full of data. Edit: In Detroit area, channel 2 is the Fox affiliate, WJBK.

I'm not sure when the changeover was. Roughly two months ago, it was still 56. I noticed about a month ago that the guide was being more reliable, but I didn't check host channel until today.

I hope this means I have data until June 12.

Jan J

04-19-09, 10:05 AM

Status of TVG in Chicagoland: 4/19/09 (Verified this morning with a waveform monitor):

CBS (2-0 OTA & off Comcast Cable) TVG on 4 different video lines: 13, 14, 15, 16 -Both Fields of video. (Did not confirm 2-0 OTA) I don't know which version of TVG is on which line or field.

ABC (7-0 OTA and Comcast Cable) TVG V7 on Line 15. Both fields are V7 TVG.

WTTW (11-0 Cable) TVG on 4 different video lines: 14, 15, 17, &20 -both fields of video. (Did not confirm 11-0 OTA). I don't know which version of TVG is on which line or field.

WFLD removed their TVG V7 inserter from their program a few months ago.

Based upon that..... Took a 3410a and gave it a First Birthday, and after settting it up for Both OTA and Analog Cable feeds, and setting up form my Zipcode and cable settings: (Cable Yes, Cablebox No), and doing an EasyScan & set the clock, Then tuned in CBS 2-0, and issued the Lock to VBI command: 963214785
And we'll see how this works over the next few days..... (Last time I tried this a few months ago, it didn't work very well).....

JRTrautschold

04-19-09, 01:04 PM

Status of TVG in Chicagoland: 4/19/09 (Verified this morning with a waveform monitor):

CBS (2-0 off Comcast Cable) TVG on 4 different video lines: 13, 14, 15, 16 -Both Fields of video. (Did not confirm 2-0 OTA) I don't know which version of TVG is on which line or field.

ABC (7-0 OTA and Comcast Cable) TVG V7 on Line 15. Both fields are V7 TVG.

WTTW (11-0 Cable) TVG on 4 different video lines: 14, 15, 17, &20 -both fields of video. (Did not confirm 11-0 OTA). I don't know which version of TVG is on which line or field.

WFLD removed their TVG V7 inserter from their program a few months ago.

Based upon that..... Took a 3410a and gave it a First Birthday, and after settting it up for Both OTA and Analog Cable feeds, and setting up form my Zipcode and cable settings: (Cable Yes, Cablebox No), and doing an EasyScan & set the clock, Then tuned in CBS 2-0, and issued the Lock to VBI command: 963214785
And we'll see how this works over the next few days..... (Last time I tried this a few months ago, it didn't work very well).....

Jan - can't speak for the others but we should be transmitting identical data both OTA and via Comcast.

Jan J

04-20-09, 08:38 AM

Checked the 2-0 experiment this morning, and though the VBI on 2-0 stuck, there is no host channel yet, nor any TVG Data. Maybe tonight. Prior to the First Birthday and setup for 2-0, it was getting V7 Data from 7-0 fine.

Jan J

04-21-09, 08:34 AM

Checked the 2-0 experiment this morning 4/21/09, and am now receiving data... Will start re-directing, thinning out, organizing selections later tonight...

avnstf

04-21-09, 11:41 PM

I wonder if albertso has figured out anything more about the DTVPal and the legacy data stream that he had found in January or February...and if he hasn't figured it out, is the data stream still there?

I checked in the DTVPal thread and found that a couple of people there who got their Pals working (I think with analog TVGOS devices) are still getting converted analog TVGOS data...but no evidence of any further rollout...I think that's because Macrovision had its hands full with the mess they made when they turned off a lot of the analog TVGOS transmissions a month or 6 weeks ago, and they have to get the REGULAR digital data stream straightened out before they move forward with the legacy stream...

(There's a guy in the DTVPal thread from my area who has been looking at the CBS digital signal with - what is it? - TSReader Lite? - and 5.1 shows TVG1 and TVG2, but no ""Teletext/VBI PID 272 (0x0110)" - but I think the TVG1 stream is presently much like the TVG2 stream, i.e., empty for now!)

Jan J

04-22-09, 08:38 AM

I'm sidetracked again with a computer problem (all day Software program(s) unload and reload)...

albertso

04-22-09, 08:18 PM

Hi all,

The answer to Tony's question, is No. I have never gotten data from the Pal setup since the 3 days earlier this year. When I set it up, and clear the guide setup info, the 3410 finds the channel I expect it to (CBS OTA HD Channel) almost instantly, but guide data never gets populated. I suspect that the data stream is not "live", as Tony suggests. Unfortunately, I don't have a tuner that TSReader will work with.

Sorry the info is not more inclusive. Still monitoring every day, and will keep you posted.

Jan J

04-23-09, 01:11 PM

CBS 2-0 as TVG V7 in Chicagoland -- Update:

The past 2 days, it has prompted me to select which Cable channel rundown to use, and each time I selected same list.

Spent first day turning on or off channels by Logo's, and re-directing as necessary.
Yesterday, had to do same thing, as it asked me to select the list again, but after that was done, moved the Icons around so the list matches the list in our other units.

At this point, I'm getting more reliable Data than I did last month... That's a good thing.

Still no data off DTVPal, though, which would have been my preferred TVG delivery.....

AMMO

04-23-09, 04:54 PM

narkspud

04-23-09, 05:11 PM

I have the 3410 hooked up to Comcast only. Just using it for a tuner on cable plus as a recorder for some shows. Will I need to hook up one of the free digital converters to this box or will it be enough once we go all digital?

The converter boxes in the stores do not work with cable. You'll have to ask Comcast what their plans are.

AMMO

04-23-09, 11:31 PM

Narkspud,
Sorry, I should have stated that Comcast is offering free digital converters and those are what I was talking about.

ebo

04-24-09, 03:07 AM

AMMO:
It's unlikely that Comcast's converter will extract and output the analog version of TVGOS from whatever digital channel carries it, so you're probably SOL for the guide. You still should be able to receive any digital channels that Comcast doesn't encrypt without the converter and you can schedule recordings manually by channel, start and end time.

JoeKustra

04-24-09, 09:42 AM

When I go to look at the TVGOS packets using the diagnostic menu entered from the front panel, my channel always switches to 19. That's consistant. I start on my host channel (15) or I can start on a different channel. Channel 19 fails since my packets are comming in on 15. I have a clock and channel lineup, but no listings. I've done many resets, still the same outcome. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks.

avnstf

04-25-09, 03:28 AM

Other 3410a owners may be interested in an exchange I've just had with someone (gmucklow) who has an NTSC/ATSC TV that, like the 3410a , needs to get TVGOS data via analog. His Pal is working to convert the legacy data for him and in his setup the resulting TV Guide in his TV includes listings for the REAL OTA channel numbers, so that he can watch/record digital broadcasts using the TV Guide system...sounds hopeful!

Our exchange starts here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16334038#post16334038

frank70

04-26-09, 07:58 AM

His Pal is working to convert the legacy data for him and in his setup the resulting TV Guide in his TV includes listings for the REAL OTA channel numbers, so that he can watch/record digital broadcasts using the TV Guide system...sounds hopeful!I just tested my DTVPal here in Philly - yes, in TVGOS mode (but not in normal mode) you can tune to the 0 subchannel of the digital host. But regardless of whether I tune 3.1 or 3.0, nogo on any TVGOS VBI yet here :(

Jan J

04-26-09, 08:51 AM

Jan J

04-26-09, 09:08 AM

Addendum to the above post.. My unit is a DTVPal, Not Plus version. However... after more tests I'm noticing something that maybe bodes well for us with DTVPal's.
Just for grins, I went in and out of TVG mode on the Pal, and noticed that CC didn't show up until 5-7 seconds after video does, which might mean it is a separate process being started. If the VBI is a second process, it could be that the TVG software STILL isn't written yet! Maybe John can shake loose some new infromation, as, my source has dried up....

frank70

04-26-09, 09:23 AM

I just checked one of my DTVPal's in Chicagoland... In TVG mode... Was unable to get it to switch from an HDTV mode to 2-0, but on 2-1 in TVG Mode, still only CC in the VBI...
All other lines are blanked. It was a bit un-clear how you'd select 2-0 while in TVG Mode on the DTVPal..... If someone was able to do it, could you explain in detail?Just key in 120 on a remote set up for Scientific Atlanta (i.e. instead of 121, which would tune 2-1). The SA channel is related to the digital channel (C) and subchannel (S) thus: 100 + 10*C + S

Since you have your little scope thing going, perhaps you could tell us if there is any CC or otherwise VBI when tuned to 120 (screen will be blank).

Jan J

04-26-09, 09:58 AM

Frank.... Remote set up for Scientific Atlanta....

??????

Are you suggesting the DTVPal can emulate a Scientific Atlanta box?

Is this something only in the Plus or in DTVPal too?

I'm not clear on this, obviously!

I did try this... Took my Mitsubishi DLP remote, which can control a Scientific Atlanta cablebox (it has two SA emulation modes: 112 & 113, whatever that means)

Tried both emulations.... then booted into TVG mode. hit 120 on numberpad.... Green LED on DTVPal blinks, but doesn't do anything... Also tried channel up down... Again--Led Blinks, but doesn't do anything....
Tried 120 using DTVPal remote, and it went to channel 66-1..

???

frank70

04-26-09, 10:19 AM

Frank.... Remote set up for Scientific Atlanta....

??????

Are you suggesting the DTVPal can emulate a Scientific Atlanta box?

Is this something only in the Plus or in DTVPal too?

I'm not clear on this, obviously!Yes, I thought everybody knew this: when in TVGOS mode, the DTVPal/TR40CRA (and probably the plus too) emulates SA, but only responds to the remote keypad digits. This is how the TVGOS device is intended to scan for a host via the IR link. Just take a universal remote, program the cable button for SA, and when in TVGOS mode, enter 121 for 2-1 and 120 for 2-0. Or use the formula for any other channel.

Jan J

04-26-09, 10:39 AM

Thank you, Frank... for that information...
Now my results (Chicagoland):

On a Mitsubishi remote, the SA Emulation 112 was the correct setting to enter channels on DTVPal in TVG mode (Just like me to try it in Regular mode, isn't it? :)! )
However, on Both the DTVPal's (Zipcode 60076 and Zipcode 00003) Channel 120 shows a completely BLACK screen, NO audio, with INACTIVE but present Closed Captioning on line 21, and NO TVG on any line in VBI.

rfburns

04-26-09, 12:08 PM

Joe, I do not have an answer to your question, but I can confirm that mine does the same thing. From the Diagnostic Menu where #10 is Factory Mode Init I can choose #8 Gemstar Test and it always switches to channel 19. The test runs for a minute or so then fails and returns me back to the menu. Like you, I've never found a way to select another channel. :(

When I go to look at the TVGOS packets using the diagnostic menu entered from the front panel, my channel always switches to 19. That's consistant. I start on my host channel (15) or I can start on a different channel. Channel 19 fails since my packets are comming in on 15. I have a clock and channel lineup, but no listings. I've done many resets, still the same outcome. Any suggestions are welcome. Thanks.

philcstuart

04-26-09, 03:55 PM

However, on Both the DTVPal's (Zipcode 60076 and Zipcode 00003) Channel 120 shows a completely BLACK screen, NO audio, with INACTIVE but present Closed Captioning on line 21, and NO TVG on any line in VBI.

I'm basically digital illiterate but is 120 (2-0?) a valid digital channel number? I too get a black screen when I enter anything ending in "0" into the Pal. To get TVGOS data in the VBI from the Pal I have to enter 211 (11-1) or 212 (11-2). 210 (11-0) has a black screen and no TVGOS in the VBI.

frank70

04-26-09, 05:27 PM

I'm basically digital illiterate but is 120 (2-0?) a valid digital channel number? I too get a black screen when I enter anything ending in "0" into the Pal. To get TVGOS data in the VBI from the Pal I have to enter 211 (11-1) or 212 (11-2). 210 (11-0) has a black screen and no TVGOS in the VBI.I was just reacting to this post in which the poster said his TVGOS had locked on to a host channel number that ended in 0 (in his case 190 or 9-0)when using the DTVPal in TVGOS mode as the analog source: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16334038#post16334038 . What you are saying here is that you too are having success in your market in using the DTVPal to receive TVGOS VBI, but that yours needs to have a non-zero subchannel. Personally, I wouldn't care which way it worked, as long as it would start working here in the Philly area.

frank70

04-26-09, 05:33 PM

avnstf

04-26-09, 05:48 PM

I just tested my DTVPal here in Philly - yes, in TVGOS mode (but not in normal mode) you can tune to the 0 subchannel of the digital host. But regardless of whether I tune 3.1 or 3.0, nogo on any TVGOS VBI yet here :(
It's the digital station (presumably 3-1) that is of interest for the so-called vbi in mpeg (i.e., the legacy data stream)

what is the 0 subchannel, anyway? I thought .0 (if it was used at all) referred in most contexts to the ANALOG channel

philcstuart

04-26-09, 06:15 PM

So it's working in Arlington VA and wherever philcstuart is from, but nix in Chicago or Philadelphia. I guess the big cities just don't rate.

Sorry. I'm in Houston. I added that to my profile. kev4321 has created a list of places where it's reported to be working at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16317081#post16317081

avnstf

04-26-09, 06:17 PM

OK...now I'm really confused...first, I was not aware of a G* test on the 3410a, and what does it test, anyway?

secondly, when you talk about "tuning the DTVPal to a channel" while in TVGOS mode, exactly what do you mean? I am aware that when you use the Pal as the front end for a TVGOS unit, you are supposed to set that (TVGOS) unit up as though it's using a Sci At cable box (in this case really the Pal), so it can switch the channel the Pal is tuned to...

so I guess you're talking about using a remote that's set up FOR a Sci At cable box to switch the Pal. But what would a .0 channel be? The analog channel, or what?

I think the TVGOS unit (with the Pal in front) would see the host channel as, say, 1x.0, where x.1 is the digital TVGOS broadcast station, but here the .0 is because the TVGOS unit sees the host channel from the Pal AS AN ANALOG station...

Am I right so far? So what could you possible get feeding 1y.0 TO THE PAL (the faux-Sci At box) other than the ANALOG station, y? But the Pal doesn't SEE analog stations....hence the question on my earlier post...

frank70

04-26-09, 07:19 PM

secondly, when you talk about "tuning the DTVPal to a channel" while in TVGOS mode, exactly what do you mean? I am aware that when you use the Pal as the front end for a TVGOS unit, you are supposed to set that (TVGOS) unit up as though it's using a Sci At cable box (in this case really the Pal), so it can switch the channel the Pal is tuned to...

so I guess you're talking about using a remote that's set up FOR a Sci At cable box to switch the Pal. But what would a .0 channel be? The analog channel, or what?

I think the TVGOS unit (with the Pal in front) would see the host channel as, say, 1x.0, where x.1 is the digital TVGOS broadcast station, but here the .0 is because the TVGOS unit sees the host channel from the Pal AS AN ANALOG station.a) Yes, I'm using a remote programmed to control an SA cable box. 100 + 10*<channel number> + <subchannel number> works.

b) In non-TVGOS mode, if you try to enter, say, 3.0 into the Pal (using its normal remote), it switches automagically to 3.1. In TVGOS mode however, if you enter 3.0 into the PAL (by pressing 130 on the SA remote), you get a blank picture, no sound, but apparently CC VBI (containing what text? I have no idea.) The zero subchannel designation has NOTHING to do with the TVGOS device's use of a zero subchannel number (which means, to it, the channel number is the analog channel that carries all the digital subchannels.) We really don't know what it means to the DTVPal; it's just a curiosity that it accepts it and produces the blank screen in TVGOS mode - the first reference to a zero subchannel I've seen regarding the DTVPal was in that referenced post about it working in Arlington.

What IS clear is that whether it be 190, 191, 130, 131, etc., the channel number emitted by the TVGOS device (via IR) and accepted by the DTVPal (in TVGOS mode) is an analog number as far as the TVGOS device is concerned, and a pseudo analog channel number that maps to a digital channel number as far as the DTVPal is concerned.

Are we having enough fun yet?

avnstf

04-26-09, 07:45 PM

Are we having enough fun yet?
yes, we are

But...I would assume that in TVGOS mode that the Pal wouldn't really recognize ANYTHING that doesn't begin with a 1..?

So, I'm still wondering about the G* test...maybe its's in the manual...I should check...

albertso

04-26-09, 08:44 PM

Hi All,

Reading the posts about the G* test allowed me to look at WUSA (34/9) in DC. Sure enough, I have good packets coming in, but still no listings. Thanks Tony for the pointers.

That being the case, I wonder whether the G* actual program data (Version 7) is up yet. My understanding is that the reported Arlington, VA data is Version 8.

Encouraged, but still waiting.

frank70

04-26-09, 09:13 PM

yes, we are

But...I would assume that in TVGOS mode that the Pal wouldn't really recognize ANYTHING that doesn't begin with a 1..?It will accept channel numbers from 120 (channel 2 subchannel 0) through 799 (channel 69, subchannel 9.) The key here is that it be a 3-digit number. Remember that the DTVPal doesn't recognize any SA remote codes except for the number keys, so no ENTER. That is why 100 is added to everything, to make all the pseudo-analog-channel numbers 3-digits.

JoeKustra

04-27-09, 08:36 AM

Jan J

04-27-09, 09:39 AM

After my last post a storm came through and wiped out phone and DSL.
So I'm reading and posting from work. However, it is heartening to note that I'm not the only one confused.... If Norpak, TVG, Macrovision, ___________, would give us a sign, that would be wonderful!!!

Instructions, Directions would be even better!!! :)!

rockin robin

04-27-09, 12:08 PM

avnstf

04-27-09, 01:30 PM

For our units go to suspected Host Channel.
In the TVGOS Menu go to MESSAGES and click SELECT.
When the ID number shows here type 971 397 135. (No spaces)

G* TEST on host channel!!!

Hopefully, this will also test ANY analog channel to see whether it might have TVGOS packets..(I wonder what it will do on a digital channel?)

Someone else mentioned some way to do this from the front panel...

(With the Sony 250/500, there's a slightly more direct way by using the remote to get to the Sony service menu, which then has a TVGOS section that gives the option of selecting the G* test...)

Does the LG Manual itself say anything about this test?

rockin robin

04-27-09, 03:11 PM

Apparently, according to JoeKustra, here on the LG3410a forum, the front panel test always changes the channel to 19 regardless of the actual channel tuned to when tested.

I did not see this in the manual. I stumbled on it by accident.

This still may not be a reliable indicator of TVGOS data/listings passage. I was getting incremeting packet counts but still not getting listings.

However, on my unit I was able to get lineup selection choices and channel grids and software patches when packets were incrementing but not getting actual Listings.

I think they must still be having trouble with the analog data passage in my GBA?? I stopped getting any Packet Counts using the G* test since early last week!!

Robin

rfburns

04-27-09, 08:13 PM

Robin,
Thank you. That is excellent new info. It is in fact the same screen I see after moving through the front panel diag. menu, but now with an obvious way to change channel and test suspected numbers.

I've updated a prior post of mine (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13453320#post13453320) to reflect your discovery in the undocumented section. See item #6. I try to keep it up to date.

FWIW, my situation is analog has ceased, so all my tests fail. But now I will have a way to see packets using my dtvpal. If and when they ever implement it here.

Jan J

04-27-09, 10:11 PM

Now that I've replaced all my phone wiring.....

I concur!!! I saw it work on Both ABC 7-0 and CBS 2-0 in Chicagoland!

One note.... If there is no data being sent right now..... It will fail... Try again in a half hour...

avnstf

04-28-09, 01:50 AM

I haven't tried the G* test on this unit yet...when it comes time to try the Pal again, that'll be more convenient than having to switch the output to my Sony, which is what I did before...but I'm also curious to see whether they give the same results....

In contrast, I was really disappointed earlier today, when I tried to go to the TVGOS support site to use my previous account to send an email...as far as I can tell, they don't have that type of customer service any more (even though the page for signing UP is still there, if you still have the link)...but I couldn't find a page for actually SENDING them an email...

(On another page, there is an email address for their CORPORATE customers...I guess we don't count any more (OR they've had so much traffic in the last couple of months of shenanigans that they've give up trying to do it...))

JoeKustra

04-28-09, 07:27 PM

Hi Joe, rfburns, Jan J and fellow LG 3410a users!!

I discovered quite by accident the way to access the G* test on my LG unit. For other units the G* test is done at the Host Channel inside the TVGOS SETUP menu. I knew it was supposed to work but it took several attempts with each of the TVGOS menu selections but I finally figured it out!!

Here it is:

For our units go to suspected Host Channel.
In the TVGOS Menu go to MESSAGES and click SELECT.
When the ID number shows here type 971 397 135. (No spaces)

VOILA!! :cool:

G* TEST on host channel!!!

Hope it helps someone!! MAY also work for other Version 7 Devices? Works for my Philips HDRW720, too!

rockin robin
Still Hopeful in GBA 46
(West Palm Beach, FL)

You really should go to Las Vegas. Finding these number by accident is amazing. It works on my LG fine. I notice that the ATSC fails but passes on my Sony DHD. I've been searching, but still only have time and a lineup. No listings on the LG but 100% on the Sony (for basic cable, not digital channels). I'm cable only, as it shows to the left on my info. I'm going to try an antenna soon, but I live in the middle of nowhere. Thanks again.

rockin robin

04-29-09, 07:00 AM

Well, it wasn't actually "by accident." I had seen (on another thread) that code used under the "SETUP" menu to access VBI. I figured it was supposed to work on my unit, too so I just kept trying it under the other TVGOS Menu headers. I finally got it to work under the Messages heading. It works for both my V7 devices.
You are welcome!! Glad I could help.

Now if Comcast will just get its S&#@ together....

Robin

frank70

04-29-09, 07:44 AM

As of this morning, KYW-DT (3.1 in Philly) is including the TVGOS SCTE-127 data stream in addition to the TVGOS TVG1 data stream in their digital signal. In addition (since their analog programming is no-doubt derived by downconverting their digital programming to NTSC), KYW (analog 3 in Philly, still on the air until June) is transmitting analog TVGOS in its VBI.

Echostar/Dish DTVPal/TR40-CRA owners, read on...

Furthermore (!), the DTVPal/TR40-CRA now passes along the SCTE-127 data stream in its VBI when it is in TVGOS mode (but not when it is in normal mode) and has been tuned to 3.1 while in TVGOS mode. Note that one cannot simply tune to 3.1 in normal mode, then use the menus to go into TVGOS mode, and expect the TVGOS VBI to be present. Once in TVGOS mode, the DTVPal MUST receive the Scientific Atlanta IR keycodes 1-3-1 (the codes to tune to 3.1 even though it may already be tuned to that channel) before the TVGOS VBI starts appearing on the analog output.

I don't know whether this signals a CBS roll-out to other cities nationwide or not, but if you've been waiting for this, you'd be wise to check now (avnstf, Jan, you listening?)

rockin robin

04-29-09, 08:24 AM

Hi Frank!
What GBA are you in?
Just curious. Wondering if they may be coming out in GBA number-order???
Robin

frank70

04-29-09, 08:57 AM

Hi Frank!
What GBA are you in?
Just curious. Wondering if they may be coming out in GBA number-order???
Robin4, according to the DTVPal manual. That's pretty low, so I doubt the number-order theory. Rather, I think that CBS corporate has been the hold-up, and perhaps those flood-gates have now opened.

Jan J

04-29-09, 10:59 AM

Echostar/Dish DTVPal/TR40-CRA owners, read on...

Furthermore (!), the DTVPal/TR40-CRA now passes along the SCTE-127 data stream in its VBI when it is in TVGOS mode (but not when it is in normal mode) and has been tuned to 3.1 while in TVGOS mode. Note that one cannot simply tune to 3.1 in normal mode, then use the menus to go into TVGOS mode, and expect the TVGOS VBI to be present. Once in TVGOS mode, the DTVPal MUST receive the Scientific Atlanta IR keycodes 1-3-1 (the codes to tune to 3.1 even though it may already be tuned to that channel) before the TVGOS VBI starts appearing on the analog output.

I don't know whether this signals a CBS roll-out to other cities nationwide or not, but if you've been waiting for this, you'd be wise to check now (avnstf, Jan, you listening?)

I'll try it tonight on both DTVPal's..... I'll be happy to see it if it's there, but don't you'd think they would have put that in the instructions, if that were the case??? :)! (Cough!! Cough!! Snicker--Snicker!!)

rockin robin

04-29-09, 02:19 PM

4, according to the DTVPal manual. That's pretty low, so I doubt the number-order theory. Rather, I think that CBS corporate has been the hold-up, and perhaps those flood-gates have now opened.

I certainly hope you are right as I am in GBA 46 and it could take a LONG time to get to my area. I checked again early this afternoon and I still am not getting any VBI data on either of my units. I am Comcast expanded basic, no box.
Thanks for the update!
Robin

Rammitinski

04-29-09, 03:45 PM

Frank - I forget - are you strictly getting the digital guide data from OTA?

And is the Pal hooked up to your 3410A and passing the data to it?

Jan J

04-29-09, 06:16 PM

Sorry to report that in Chicagoland, on two different DTVPals, one set for zipcode 60076, and one set for 00003, NEITHER DTVPal's show any TVG in TVGOS mode, with channel 121 called up on it using a remote set for Scientific Atlanta codes. (121 equates to 2-1, CBS DTV in Chicagoland).
OR 120 (120 calls up a black channel, 121 calls up 2-1). Channels change, but no TVG.

Lines up to line 21 are blanked. Line 21 has CC.

I would have loved to post differently, but that's not the case....

frank70

04-29-09, 06:18 PM

Frank - I forget - are you strictly getting the digital guide data from OTA?

And is the Pal hooked up to your 3410A and passing the data to it?Yes, I'm strictly OTA. I don't own an LG, but the Pal is hooked up to my Sony DHG-HDD250 and IS DEFINITELY passing TVGOS data to it (if you follow the procedure, i.e.: tune to the host channel via the SA remote codes, as if it were being done by the TVGOS device via its IR link cable - something the Sony doesn't do). Since Sony issued a firmware upgrade a week or two ago, I don't need the Pal any more, but it WAS part of the backup plan. I plan on giving the Pal to a friend who does have an LG DVR.

frank70

04-29-09, 06:25 PM

Sorry to report that in Chicagoland, on two different DTVPals, one set for zipcode 60076, and one set for 00003, NEITHER DTVPal's show any TVG in TVGOS mode, with channel 121 called up on it (121 equates to 2-1, CBS DTV in Chicagoland).
OR 120 (120 calls up a black channel, 121 calls up 2-1).

Lines up to line 21 are blanked. Line 21 has CC.

I would have loved to post differently, but that's not the case....Too bad, Jan... looks like roll-out is on a station-by-station basis - how bizzare. Incidentally, I suspect if you just leave the DTVPal AND the TVGOS device set to your normal zipcode, everything will work; the strange Pal zipcodes just access special listings that have the Pal's SA channel numbers assigned.

I've confirmed that the "zero subchannel" option (even though DTVPal strangely accepts it and generates a blank screen) does NOT pass through TVGOS VBI, only the "main" subchannel (.1). So for you, I would expect 121 to eventually work, but 120 should not.

Call your CBS station's engineering department and tell them that Philly beat them and they should be embarrassed!

Jan J

04-29-09, 06:29 PM

Call your CBS station's engineering department and tell them that Philly beat them and they should be embarrassed!

John????

rfburns

04-29-09, 08:30 PM

Yes, I'm strictly OTA. I don't own an LG, but the Pal is hooked up to my Sony DHG-HDD250 and IS DEFINITELY passing TVGOS data to it (if you follow the procedure, i.e.: tune to the host channel via the SA remote codes, as if it were being done by the TVGOS device via its IR link cable - something the Sony doesn't do). Since Sony issued a firmware upgrade a week or two ago, I don't need the Pal any more, but it WAS part of the backup plan. I plan on giving the Pal to a friend who does have an LG DVR.

Frank,
I'm trying to get a handle on slaving the dtvpal like you have done. I understand your equation [100 + (C x 10) + S] for using an SA remote. It seems likely S will always be 1 for 3410a owners purposes. But my question is with C. Is C the 'real' broadcast channel number or the 'virtual' channel identifier number? They are not necessarily the same and will likely change again for many in June. I'm getting a headache again. :confused:

avnstf

04-29-09, 08:59 PM

As of this morning, KYW-DT (3.1 in Philly) is including the TVGOS SCTE-127 data stream in addition to the TVGOS TVG1 data stream in their digital signal. In addition (since their analog programming is no-doubt derived by downconverting their digital programming to NTSC), KYW (analog 3 in Philly, still on the air until June) is transmitting analog TVGOS in its VBI.

Echostar/Dish DTVPal/TR40-CRA owners, read on...

Furthermore (!), the DTVPal/TR40-CRA now passes along the SCTE-127 data stream in its VBI when it is in TVGOS mode (but not when it is in normal mode) and has been tuned to 3.1 while in TVGOS mode. Note that one cannot simply tune to 3.1 in normal mode, then use the menus to go into TVGOS mode, and expect the TVGOS VBI to be present. Once in TVGOS mode, the DTVPal MUST receive the Scientific Atlanta IR keycodes 1-3-1 (the codes to tune to 3.1 even though it may already be tuned to that channel) before the TVGOS VBI starts appearing on the analog output.

From what you say, it isn't clear whether or when you might be seeing in what form the TVGOS data from the Pal appears in the TV Guide screen of the 3410a...THAT is to me the big question, once the data stream starts to be broadcast!!!

So have you seen that data in the screen and (if so) does it permit receiving and recording DIGITAL channels?

PS somehow I though the Pal would be expecting 130 from the TVGOS device it is serving...?

Thanks - Tony

frank70

04-29-09, 09:17 PM

Frank,
I'm trying to get a handle on slaving the dtvpal like you have done. I understand your equation [100 + (C x 10) + S] for using an SA remote. It seems likely S will always be 1 for 3410a owners purposes. But my question is with C. Is C the 'real' broadcast channel number or the 'virtual' channel identifier number? They are not necessarily the same and will likely change again for many in June. I'm getting a headache again. :confused:C is the virtual (PSIP-mapped) channel number. In my case of 3.1, C=3. That digital signal is actually being broadcast on UHF 26, which is the physical number. The DTVPal doesn't accept physical numbers, only virtual numbers obtained during a prior scan; this is the case using either its own remote (00301) in normal mode, or the SA remote (131) in TVGOS mode.

frank70

04-29-09, 09:28 PM

From what you say, it isn't clear whether or when you might be seeing in what form the TVGOS data from the Pal appears in the TV Guide screen of the 3410a...THAT is to me the big question, once the data stream starts to be broadcast!!!

So have you seen that data in the screen and (if so) does it permit receiving and recording DIGITAL channels?

PS somehow I though the Pal would be expecting 130 from the TVGOS device it is serving...?

Thanks - TonyYou're right, I haven't actually received guide data that way, but I believe after the Pal converts it from SCTE-127 to analog VBI, it is the same data that KYW analog is now broadcasting (because their downconverter must also convert SCTE-127 to analog VBI.) And that data, I'm sure contains the same old digital channels (and still analog, but not for much longer) because my Sony locked onto that analog channel last night and this morning I have the usual day-8 listings. I suspect you only get the bogus channel numbers if you enter one of the odd zipcodes in your TVGOS device; that is, I believe the SCTE-127 stream (and thus the VBI stream) carries the special Pal Philadelphia zipcode data along with all the other Philadelphia zipcodes - it's just one more zipcode and can't bloat the data that much. In your case, your local CBS channel, when they get it in gear, will carry your local special Pal zipcode (SFO?), plus all your local zipcodes.

That's my take on the situation. It may or may not be true, but if it is, you need do nothing to your LG except connect the Pal to it (via a Channel 4 or Channel 3 combiner), put the Pal in TVGOS mode, send it the SA IR code for your digital host, make sure channel 3 or 4 is enabled, and wait for the LG to find it as the host (or run the now nearly infamous G* test.)

As far as the 131 vs. 130 goes, yeah I would have thought it would be the 130 too, but nope - no TVGOS VBI there until I give it 131.

Here's hoping your station gets on the ball soon!

avnstf

04-29-09, 11:07 PM

I believe the SCTE-127 stream (and thus the VBI stream) carries the special Pal Philadelphia zipcode data along with all the other Philadelphia zipcodes - it's just one more zipcode and can't bloat the data that much. In your case, your local CBS channel, when they get it in gear, will carry your local special Pal zipcode (SFO?), plus all your local zipcodes.

This is what I really hope is true...otherwise the 3410a would be toast as far as being able to set recordings from the TV Guide menu...which is what has made life so easy since I got the 3410a and the Sony 250...

JoeKustra

04-30-09, 08:29 AM

philcstuart

04-30-09, 09:37 PM

C is the virtual (PSIP-mapped) channel number. In my case of 3.1, C=3. That digital signal is actually being broadcast on UHF 26, which is the physical number. The DTVPal doesn't accept physical numbers, only virtual numbers obtained during a prior scan; this is the case using either its own remote (00301) in normal mode, or the SA remote (131) in TVGOS mode.

I'm seeing different behavior with my DTVPal. In TVGOS mode it will accept both the physical channel numbers as well as the virtual ones although sending it physical channel numbers results in it tuning the third subchannel for a handful of the stations. After a TVGOS reset, my DVD recorder will only search channels below 100 when searching for a station sending TVGOS data. In my case it will find the data in the VBI from channel 31, the physical channel of my local CBS station. The host channel shows up as 31. The recorder will download TVGOS data for a couple of days then the host channel will switch to 211 which is the modifed virtual channel number for the same station. The TVGOS data downloads continue uninterrupted across this switch.

frank70

04-30-09, 10:51 PM

I'm seeing different behavior with my DTVPal. In TVGOS mode it will accept both the physical channel numbers as well as the virtual ones although sending it physical channel numbers results in it tuning the third subchannel for a handful of the stations. After a TVGOS reset, my DVD recorder will only search channels below 100 when searching for a station sending TVGOS data. In my case it will find the data in the VBI from channel 31, the physical channel of my local CBS station. The host channel shows up as 31. The recorder will download TVGOS data for a couple of days then the host channel will switch to 211 which is the modifed virtual channel number for the same station. The TVGOS data downloads continue uninterrupted across this switch.Well, that might well be a quirk of the way they've set up the Scientific Atlanta channel numbering scheme (<100 analog, >100 digital), but if you're trying to tune the Pal by hand in TVGOS mode, just use the >100 digital host channel number per the formula and it works; the fact that it also may work with the equivalent <100 physical channel number seems like too much information.

Jan J

04-30-09, 10:53 PM

WELL!!! COUGH--COUGH--SNICKER--SNICKER!!!!

I'M LOOKING AT TVG DATA ON LINES 13, 14, 15, 16 OFF A DTVPal TUNED TO CBS 2-1 IN CHICAGO!!!

1. I DID HAVE TO CHANGE TO CHANNEL 121 USING A REMOTE SET FOR SCIENTIFIC ATLANTA CODES.

2. ON POWER UP IN TVG MODE, EVEN THOUGH CBS 2-1 DID COME UP, NO TVG WAS SENT IN VBI UNTIL I USED THE REMOTE SET FOR SCIENTIFIC ATLANTA CODES AND SENT CHANNEL 121

3. I'M SEEING IDENTICAL DATA ON BOTH CBS 2-0 OFF COMCAST, AS TVG DATA OFF DTVPal.

4. I HAVE NOT YET TRIED THE G* TEST WITH A 3410A, BUT SEEING THAT I DID TRY IT WITH CBS 2-0 OFF COMCAST EARLIER THIS WEEK, AND I AM PRESENTLY USING 2-0 OFF COMCAST AS TVG FOR A 3410a, I AM PRETTY CONFIDENT THAT IT WILL WORK.

5. I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO TEST THIS WITH A 3410a UNTIL SUNDAY... BUT I WILL TRY IT THEN.... (RATHER RE-DIRECT THE LOCK FROM 2-0 TO 3-0 (WHERE I WILL PUT THE DTVPal RF INTO CABLE SYSTEM HERE...) I'LL GIVE IT A FIRST BIRTHDAY, THEN LOCK IT TO 3-0 (DTVPal).... THIS WAY, I'LL KNOW IF IT GETS DATA OR NOT...

THANKS TO JOHN FOR THE UPDATE!!!

YIPPEE!

frank70

05-01-09, 07:52 AM

WELL!!! COUGH--COUGH--SNICKER--SNICKER!!!!
...
THANKS TO JOHN FOR THE UPDATE!!!
YIPPEE!John?

Glad to hear the news!

Jan J

05-01-09, 08:50 AM

More good news!!

This morning I turned on the DTVPal, (the one mixed into channel 3 of my cable system, not the one from last night)
and set it with SA codes. Verified on the scope that TVG was there, and then went to my "Test" 3410a (presently set for CBS 2-0 off cable), went into channel edit and turned on channel 3, then set for 3-0, and went into G* Test. Got data off VBI A and VBI B (OK--what's the difference between VBI A and VBI B??)....

Since it was stable through the cable system in the house, First Birthday'd then power cycled the 3410a, and then set it up for Zipcode 60076, cable yes, cablebox no, and then did an EZ-Scan, and set clock. That would be the 'normal' configuration.....

Next, went to 3-0 (where the DTVPal is) and did another G* Test. Successful again!!

Then, Locked TVG to 3-0. and after that finished.... turned it off.

Judging from the lock to 2-0 a couple weeks ago... I won't see channel list till Sunday!!!

Oh Yes, John is a guy from CBS, who sent me PM. Aparantly when I last checked for 121 and 120, it was the day before they added the TVG to the 2-1 stream.

But I would like to thank all the other poster's who have given such good information!

rockin robin

05-01-09, 09:08 AM

Hi Jan J!
Forgive my ignorance but I thought the DTVPal was for OTA only??
Robin

Jan J

05-01-09, 11:51 AM

Hi Jan J!
Forgive my ignorance but I thought the DTVPal was for OTA only??
Robin

Yes it is... I have an OTA feed going to it..
However, I have the DTVPal RF output set for channel 3, and I then mixed the DTVPal Channel 3 signal BACK INTO my cable feed (using a device that notches out Channel 3 from cable feed, then inserts Ch 3 from DTVPal, and then outputs the cable + Channel 3 to an amp that feeds entire house as "cable". This way, because I have this cable feed going to all 3410a's in the house, the infastructure for delivering TVG after June is in place (since August or September of last year) for delivering TVG to the 3410a's....

I then can check the scope hooked to video output of TV in one room, and using tuner in TV verify any Analog feed on the cable feed..... and see it in my workshop in the basement, where I have a test 3410a.... with OTA and "Cable + 3" (and +4, but that's another story).

So, yes, The DTVPal is receiving OTA 2-1, and downconverting it to NTSC -- and decoding TVG and putting it in the VBI of the downconverted video, which is then modulated on Channel 3, and mixed back into the cable feed as CH3.

No joke, I'm serious!

avnstf

05-01-09, 03:24 PM

Got data off VBI A and VBI B (OK--what's the difference between VBI A and VBI B??)....

They are two kinds of TVGOS packets...if you check through the diagnostic screens on the 3410a, you'll find one that shows the numbers of A and B packets received...

On the other hand, if I've got this straight in my memory, my Sony uses B and C packets!

So who was it above who alerted you to the presence of the legacy stream in Chicago (assuming, I've got that straight, too!)

Cheers - Tony (still looking for that data here in the SF area...)

By the way, you might be vaguely interested in an exchange I had in our SF area OTA thread about the legacy stream, data rates, etc; our interchange starts here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16376471#post16376471

rfburns

05-01-09, 05:32 PM

Question: Will my 3410a find the tvgos data when slaving a host dtvpal's composite output to the A/V-1 input (no coaxial connection). I seem to recall someone saying it should. Jan was that you?

I'm experimenting that way now. Something came through, because after I began playing I got the old green reserved light on again. Power cycled and found my zipcode had reverted to factory default. I've put my correct zip in again and will check it later.

AMMO

05-01-09, 06:41 PM

Will the 3410 be able to be used for channels >30 after the switch or will we be required to hook up a DTA to it? I do not use it for OTA but as a tuner connected to my comcast cable, will it work without one of the free DTA's or not? Appreciate any thoughts on this please.
Thanks
Mike

rfburns

05-01-09, 07:51 PM

Mike,
Since your source is cable only then you should be fine. The 3410a can tune up to analog cable channel 135. The catch now is how much longer will your cable co. keep supplying the "free/basic" analog service.

Jan J

05-02-09, 12:26 AM

checked the test 3410a late this evening (now fed from DTVPal RF Channel 3)
TVG Diagnostics indicate that VBI channel is CH 3, but no cable lists yet, but that's how it acted a couple weeks ago off CBS off cable (CH 2), so I turned it off to get more data.

Jan J

05-02-09, 09:20 AM

Informational post regarding CH3/CH4 RF Options on DTVPal:

Because I've made repeated posts about CH3 and my DTVPal, I'm not trying to say that CH3 is better than CH4 -- and so this post...

The DTVPal can output either CH3 or CH4 RF.

Obviously, you'd use whatever didn't interact with your local channel setup..

However, if you have a local CH2 or CH5, and no CH3 or CH4, your best bet would be to use CH4, not CH3.....

Reasoning: CH2 is Adjacent to CH3.... in RF Spectrum.
There is a large RF Gap between CH4 and CH5.

Therefore....CH3 would have a greater chance to interfere with CH2 than CH4 would have to either CH2 or CH5.

In my case, I had already had used CH4 for something else, and so my only inexpensive option was use CH3 inserter...

rfburns

05-02-09, 01:48 PM

I'm having limited success with my setup. Using the dtvpal in host mode and tuned to channel 13.1 using SA remote command. I've verified with the station engineer and am told they are now sending tvgos data. In my case the host station is same as it was before, PBS (not CBS). My dtvpal is connected to 3410a using the A/V1 input over composite cables. No coaxial connection, but I may try that if this doesn't work. Zipcode set to real. Cable yes, Box no.

Known facts so far:
Clock is now being set by host.
Host channel has been found.
Tvgos data of some kind is coming through from digital source. (see pics).
Still no guide data and I have not been asked to choose a lineup yet.

I've attached some screen caps to verify. Guide light remains on so I'll give it some more time.

Jan J

05-02-09, 03:08 PM

When I was experimenting with Forcing a VBI channel... 2 of the 3 3410a's had no problem with going from one 'forced' VBI channel to a 2nd forced VBI Channel.... 3rd one resisted as if it wasn't getting data....
I fixed this 3rd one with a First Birthday....

The unit in question is NOT the one I'm using for testing now, and the reason why I gave this 2nd unit a First Birthday was to confirm, without a doubt, that it was getting TVG and Cable channel lists -- which I'm still waiting for... Maybe tomorrow morning.
Jan

frank70

05-02-09, 06:41 PM

CH2 is Adjacent to CH3.... in RF Spectrum.
There is a large RF Gap between CH4 and CH5.Wow, in my 42+ years of engineering experience, I must admit I've never noticed that 4 MHz. gap in the VHF low band before! I always assumed they were contiguous. Wonder what service lives in there?

Jan J

05-02-09, 10:24 PM

Here's the info... Be prepared to be blown away!
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf

I got a cable channel list on my DTVPal/Experimental 3410a, and selected it... Awaiting some data before I start disabling channels, and moving them around...

I noticed on the 2-0 CBS and now DTVPal data, TVG will be a bit unstable (in the channel disable and move mode) until it gets some channel listings, so I'll let it alone till tomorrow...

frank70

05-02-09, 10:54 PM

Here's the info... Be prepared to be blown away!
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdfWOW!!! And I'd never noticed the missing channel 37 either - live and learn.

avnstf

05-02-09, 11:13 PM

WOW!!!
I'll second that!

I regret to announce that neither of my units below got day 8 listings today...what's MV up to THIS time!?:(

avnstf

05-03-09, 01:48 AM

By the way, some might be interested in some speculation (here:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16387307#post16387307) about A and B packets (used by the 3410a) vs B and C packets (used by the Sony) and the potential relationship with the structure (or not) of the broadcast of the different TVGOS versions. To my knowledge, there's been essentially no real info (or even speculation) about these issues, and I'd be curious if others have EITHER!

Cheers - Tony

JoeKustra

05-03-09, 08:32 AM

They are two kinds of TVGOS packets...if you check through the diagnostic screens on the 3410a, you'll find one that shows the numbers of A and B packets received...

On the other hand, if I've got this straight in my memory, my Sony uses B and C packets!

So who was it above who alerted you to the presence of the legacy stream in Chicago (assuming, I've got that straight, too!)

Cheers - Tony (still looking for that data here in the SF area...)

By the way, you might be vaguely interested in an exchange I had in our SF area OTA thread about the legacy stream, data rates, etc; our interchange starts here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16376471#post16376471

I have a DHD and an LST3410a. I checked and the Sony indicates zero A packets, millions of B packets, and hundred's of thousands of C packets. This is since an early March reset. I can also say that my LG has no listings but my Sony has full listings today. I'm not smart enough to make too much sense of this, but I never trust downloads after 5pm on any Friday and my LG needs an unplug daily since losing the listings. This week I lost listings on the Sony from next Friday at 8pm to the end of Saturday. They are back this Sunday morning. This was normal during all of April, but was ok last weekend. Packets are always being counted at the rate of over 200 per minute and both units have a perfect clock. I wonder if the person at Macrovision knows how many people are affected by what they do?

Jan J

05-03-09, 08:58 AM

Chicagoland.
Sunday AM. Just like off the recently tested CBS off cable, I had to wait 2 days for 3410a TVG off DTVPal to become stable enough for the TVG display to allow me to disable channels and re-compose the channel list. (Would lock up if I tried to disable many channels prior to waiting long enough -- This unit DID NOT do this on CH 7-0 TVG, but does do this on CBS 2-0 and DTVPal, both of which are sending more channel Icons-by the way). I'm Still not receiving channel programming data, but I disabled many channels... re-directed some to different channel numbers, and re-ordered the list...
Did another TVG Diagnostic, and it says VBI is off Chanel 3, which equates to where it is on my cable.

If you remember my commenting months ago about OTA channel list showing OTA channel numbers instead of cable numbers? (Recent CBS off cable TVG showed Cable channels for OTA channels) Well, Off the DTVPal, OTA channels now have OTA Channel numbers, along with more OTA channels from surrounding cities (Milwaukee I believe).

Turned it back off again, and it is getting data.
Checked agan at 4:15PM... Still no data "No Listings"... Turned off, and the TVG light went on...

Jan J

05-04-09, 07:48 AM

avnstf

05-04-09, 05:36 PM

Chicagoland CBS on 2-1 OTA
Monday 5/4/09 6AM
DTVPal in TVG mode/SA code "121" to 3410a
3410a locked to 3-0 (DTVPal TVG Channel)
Channel list received by 3410a 5/2/09 AM

Still no channel data "No Listings"
Well, Jan - I have my fingers crossed for you...

So how many people have reported success with the DTVPal and the 3410a? One!? Or is it two?

I'm not even trying again until somebody reports seeing the legacy stream in this area; I've already set up my Pal in parallel with the antenna feed going to my 3410a...

Yesterday, when I found I HAD gotten a download overnight on both my 3410a and my Sony 250 (both from PBS 9), I did the G* test on the 3410a, and it indicated both A and B packets on both PBS 9 and CBS 5...

I wish my unit had stayed with 5, because - during the three periods since Thanksgiving when it had 5 as a host channel - I got TVGOS downloads nightly without any intervention...whereas SINCE LAST MAY, to get downloads with PBS 9 as host channel, I had to do a reboot of the 3410a EVERY NIGHT before I went to sleep if I wanted a download by the next day...a pain in the butt for an entire YEAR except for the total of 2 months or so I have had CBS 5 as a host channel...

(Tonight I'm letting the reboot slide to see whether they've fixed whatever bug the PBS 9 broadcasts had that necessitated my rebooting nightly...)

So I've changed my signature below to reflect the current change of host for my LG...):rolleyes:

POWERFUL

05-04-09, 07:02 PM

So the Sony's get digital TVGOS?

avnstf

05-04-09, 07:22 PM

So the Sony's get digital TVGOS?
The Sony's CAN get digital, and mine HAS in the past, though the info is that - with the earlier Sony firmware - they couldn't survive in a purely digital-TVGOS environment, i.e., with any full TVGOS reset, wouldn't be able to get all the required TVGOS info.

So Sony recently provided upgraded firmware that is SUPPOSED to fix this problem, i.e., that included a base TVGOS firmware that meets the stated TVGOS requirement for being able to bootstrap itself back up to the current TVGOS firmware patch that is needed for making it with digital TVGOS only....

Whether it will work that way remains to be seen, since the unit still evidently PREFERS analog TVGOS, so I - for one -won't be able to tell until the analog TVGOS in my area evvaporates on June 12..

But, yes, we've known for a year or so that the Sony CAN receive digital TVGOS, but have inconclusive evidence with respect to a purely digital environment

Jan J

05-04-09, 08:04 PM

5/04/09 PM. Chicagoland.
I'm getting data into a 3410a from a DTVPal, and a programmed recording from TVG just started!

rfburns

05-04-09, 09:13 PM

That's great news Jan! I'm still getting new data, but no line-up or anything to edit yet. It's maddening. :mad:

Jan J

05-04-09, 09:19 PM

Try re-locking to the TVG signal.... That did it for me....

Here's my picture of the G* test:

Also, after you get Cable Channel list, and make a selection, Go easy on Channel editing.... TVG can lock up easier in this mode than before...
Do your editing of list a little bit at a time.... Instead of doing it all at once.... Don't know why, but it can lockup early on (until it gets finished).

POWERFUL

05-05-09, 01:22 AM

Well I'm still getting the TVGOS analog here in the NYC market, although it requires the 2 sec unplug occasionally. What do I need to get the digital TVGOS?

avnstf

05-05-09, 01:51 AM

Here's my picture of the G* test:

Well, I'm very happy to see that picture...have you sent it to Nick?

avnstf

05-05-09, 01:52 AM

Well I'm still getting the TVGOS analog here in the NYC market, although it requires the 2 sec unplug occasionally. What do I need to get the digital TVGOS?
assuming you have a 3410a, you'll need a DTVPal...

Jan J

05-05-09, 02:31 PM

Well, I'm very happy to see that picture...have you sent it to Nick?

Yes I did...

Late last night (after doing two recordings on DTVPal based system) I am trying a different approach... Took a second system (Presently locked to 7-0 ABC) and RF channel edited Cable Channel 3 to the list, and then set it to 3-0 and then forced it to 3-0 for VBI.

I'll watch this system to see if it continues to get channel data.... This approach would definately be easier than a First Birthday...

Jan J

05-05-09, 06:30 PM

I posted yesterday that OTA channels were sent from DTVPal, and they were.... But today -- one day later, it loaded Cable channel numbers over the OTA numbers it downloaded yesterday... Edited them back.... to OTA

rfburns

05-05-09, 07:20 PM

Nick? As in Ferrelli, CSR at tvgos support? I had an open case with him over a year ago.

avnstf

05-05-09, 08:20 PM

Nick? As in Ferrelli, CSR at tvgos support? I had an open case with him over a year ago.
yes, I had him around August, and I tried to reopen my inquiry from then with a more current and urgent question about 10 days ago about specifically how the DTVPal was supposed to work with the 3410a - but no response!

Related to that (indirectly, via Jan's recent interaction with him), I decided to do a side-by side comparison of packet counts from my 2 units, the LG and Sony, from the 2 local analog stations that are currently broadcasting TVGOS data in the SF Bay area...I did the testing over a roughly 15 minute period beginning about an hour ago, during the last third of the last 180 minute download, around 4:14 PM.

It's a little hard to keep track, switching between units AND switching stations, but the short answer seems to be that - the packet B rates on BOTH units were about 3 per second on BOTH analog channels (PBS 9 and CBS 5)...

I looked at both the G*tests on both units AND at the slicing screens in their diagnostic menus, and the results were consistent...I wasn't sure of this at first using the G* tests, because the Sony's G*test shows only a single vbi count rate, and it was about FOUR per second. But when I looked at the slicing screen, I saw that the Sony had a 3/s rate for B packets and about 1/s on C packets, which totals 4/s...so my guess is that the vbi count given on the Sony G*test is for TOTAL packets (i.e., B+C). When I looked at the Sony slicing screen, the rate for B seemed pretty close to 3/s.

Instead of C packets, the LG uses A packets, but when I was making these comparisons, the A count rate was probably a tenth or less of the B count rate, and in any case it was stated separately in both the G* test and the slicing screen of the LG.

And, as I said, the results for B packets (and A and C) seemed indistinguishable between channels 5 and 9, which is what is to be expected since they have essentially the same broadcast schedule, and presumably are sending the same TVGOS data, though of course the two units are picking out different packet types.

(Elsewhere, I speculated a couple of days ago about what this might mean in terms of the content of this different packets types, and also about the possible structure of the TVGOS broadcasts, in terms of things like channel, zip code, TVGOS version, etc...)

Anyway, thought it was interesting to check and compare what was being broadcast by the two stations and what was being picked out by these two units...

Jan J

05-06-09, 10:21 AM

I just received an email indicating that DTVPal is supposed to work with 3410a via G-Link connection, and because I'm using RF output of DTVPal (which isn't supposed to work, I've been told):

"At this time I can not continue to help you with this unsupported set up. If you ever choose to set this unit up correctly and still have difficultly we will be able to assist you with it."

I'm guessing that -- Like the Bumblebee (with regards to wing size and flight) --- The LG3410a doesn't know it's "not supposed to work" with RF out of DTVPal..... and therefore it works anyway....

I'd like to hear more about specifics of G-Link operation with 3410a and DTVPal.
Somehow I can't understand why subsitiuting one RF channel for another would not be a "Supported" setup....

First unit (First Birthday) still working fine with DTVPal RF, Second unit (ReLock) not receiveing listings yet.
Third unit (Another ReLock). converted over very early this AM.

frank70

05-06-09, 04:55 PM

I'd like to hear more about specifics of G-Link operation with 3410a and DTVPal.
Somehow I can't understand why subsitiuting one RF channel for another would not be a "Supported" setup....

First unit (First Birthday) still working fine with DTVPal RF, Second unit (ReLock) not receiveing listings yet.
Third unit (Another ReLock). converted over very early this AM.Well, I can't speak for the LG, but the Sony, because it can receive both clear QAM and encrypted cable via a cable card, has no implementation of the G-Link (other than some hokey way to control a VCR.) If the LG doesn't have a cable card, then perhaps it will work because it would need some way to change channels on a cable box, the same "feature" utilized by the DTVPal in TVGOS mode. Should be documented in the LG user's manual, I would think (i.e.: how to set it up for a specific manufacturers cable box.) I don't even think I could dredge up my Sony's G-Link cable - it probably got lost within days of realizing I had no use for it. Of course, it's kind of overkill to let the TVGOS unit search for a host this way, since you already know what the host channel is and can tune it with a programmable remote control and it will never need to change unless they decide to switch hosts on you.

The LG may not "work" with the RF connection if trying to use the G-Link because it wouldn't know what channel to tune internally first; but surely it will work with the RF connection if you tune the Pal by hand and leave it on, because that's how it works normally anyway.

avnstf

05-06-09, 07:12 PM

So Jan J and Frank 70...I think I've gotten somewhat different advice from the two of you on how to set up my 3410a with a DTVPal for OTA only WHEN the legacy stream appears around here...namely, I interpret Frank 70's advicce to mean just leaving the 3410a as is (real zip code/OTA only), whereas Jan's advice is to set it up involving cable ("Cable Yes, Cablebox No")...any thoughts on this discrepancy?

Jan...I find it difficult to believe what they (Nick?) sent you - either the csrs there are a bunch of ignorant jerks* OR the managers are (or both)...

*whereas last year the CSRs seemed at least vaguely helpful

Jan J

05-06-09, 09:36 PM

Let me preface this with the information that Macrovision says this is an Un-Supported procedure.... But it seems to work here.
I have two 3410a units working... One exactly as posted below.... The 2nd and 3rd units were existing 3410a's, getting data locked to 7-0 ABC in Chicago, and switched/locked that to 3-0 DTVPal feed, and one of them worked right off the bat.... the 3rd one (Set up last night) has yet to get data yet, but is VBI Locked to 3-0 according to TVG Diagnostics...

Note Again that Macrovision says this is an Un-Supported setup...

(And if anyone EVER finds any document indicating what IS the "Supported Setup", would you please make a copy of that document and send it to me, as I don't ever remember ever finding any document regarding how we are "Supposed" to connect the DTVPal in TVG mode?)

I just checked the experimental 3410a/DTVPal... It is doing another test recording..
Here is how it's configured, step by step, in it's entirety:

DTVPal:
Gets OTA feed, Set for CH3 output, Zipcode is 00003 (Chicago DTVPal Zipcode). DTV Pal set into TVG mode, and then a Remote set for Scientific Atlanta codes then changes the channel to 121, for Chicagoland CBS 2-1. (Note that when DTVPal Boots into TVG Mode, it does NOT display TVG, until the SA Codes for 2-1 -- 121 are sent).
RF output From DTVPal is mixed back into my cable feed (using a TRU-SPEC SC3 Inserter--Which notches out CH3 from Cable feed, inserts CH3 from DTVPal which then hits an RF AMP and Feeds entire house). I'm still receiving Analog cable, that's why I mixed DTVPal CH3 into the cable feed.
At this point if I tune in channel 3-0 on any TV or 3410a fed by cable in the house, the downconverted CBS-HD 2-1 feed (With TVG in VBI) is seen..

Preliminary TVG testing: LG3410a:
RF from "Cable + TVG3" amp is connected to Cable input of 3410a.
(added 3-0 to cable channel list on 3410a if it wasn't there), went into 3410a TVGuide/Setup/Messages and entered: 971397135 and verified that I was receiving TVG data on Channel 3-0. It was..... and this part of the testing is done. See the picture of TVG a few posts back, that's what I saw.

Convert 3410a to DTVPal use: Brute Force method:
I gave it a First Birthday, followed by Power cycle, then complete setup: (EZ-Scan, Set Zipcode (MY Zipcode 60076), Cable Yes, Cablebox No, Set Time. Set to Channel 3-0 and then "Locked" to Channel 3-0 (TVG/Setup/Messages on 3-0, entered: 963214785). When TVG display went away..... Turned it off, and awaited TVG Channel List, and then data, which took a couple days.

Because I'm set for Cable yes, Cablebox no: I have NO G-Link connected to the 3410a. ONLY Connection between DTVPal and 3410a's is via RF Channel 3 in the cable feed.

What I've noticed:
There is a LONGER time to wait for Cable channel lists via CBS off cable list that went active last month, AND ALSO Cable channel lists via DTVPal, compared to the past few years, getting the data off cable feeds. It has taken 2 days, where before it took one day, with OTA TV channels being received on the next day after cable channel lists were received.
ALSO: I'm betting that the amount of data being sent is more than before, as I've found TVG in the 3410a having "Lockup issues" if you try and do too much TVG configuring too soon. The thing to note is: Don't Over-Do-It!! TVG is more apt to Lock up using CBS or DTVPal connection, compared to prior cable channel feeds I've seen for past few years.
DON'T OVER EDIT your TVG Menus early on! Slowely but surely disable the channels you want to turn off, making sure you don't end up with TVG locking up, or you'll lose all your changes.... I , there is less memory available early on (or, I'm seeing more channel Icons)...

At present, I've got 2 of 3 units I've converted working with DTVPal/TVG. One unit is still awaiting data and/or channel lists. One last unit remains on CH7 as a control reference...

One Last warning.... Macrovision says this is an Un-Supported Setup...

(remember to send me Macrovision's "Supported" instructions when you find them...)

frank70

05-07-09, 08:59 AM

DTVPal:
Gets OTA feed, Set for CH3 output, Zipcode is 00003 (Chicago DTVPal Zipcode). DTV Pal set into TVG mode, and then a Remote set for Scientific Atlanta codes then changes the channel to 121, for Chicagoland CBS 2-1. (Note that when DTVPal Boots into TVG Mode, it does NOT display TVG, until the SA Codes for 2-1 -- 121 are sent).Jan and others - as far as I can figure, the zipcode you enter into the DTVPal is totally irrelevant - I mean, what would it use it for? In normal mode, it's guide (unlike the DTVPal DVR) is strictly PSIP driven, and that doesn't require a zipcode. In TVGOS mode, it is deaf, dumb, and blind to the TVGOS data - it just converts the VBI from digital (SCTE-127) to analog (NTSC vertical blanking lines) without any interpretation of the data. I think the DTVPal CECB zipcode entry is possibly for software compatibility with the DTVPal DVR (the former being a subset of the latter.) In my mind, it really doesn't matter what zipcode you enter there. Note that in the DTVPal manual, they tell you to put the substitute zipcode into your TVGOS device, not your DTVPal. But don't do that either...

The 00003 zipcode is one that was meant to be entered into your TVGOS device if it is one of the (majority of) TVGOS devices that haven't got a clue about digital reception or digital channel numbers. If you enter that zipcode into your TVGOS device, it will build a grid that lists your digital channels with substitute cable channel numbers. These cable numbers are meant to allow the TVGOS device to tune the DTVPal via the IR link. In the case of the LG and the Sony DVRs, they already know how to tune digital channels, so the substitute zipcodes have no use here.

Jan J

05-07-09, 11:03 AM

Frank: I agree with you on the DTVPal Zipcode issue. As Luck would have it, the unit I had hooked to the CH3 inserter was set for 00003.

As it turns out, Zipcode 00003 for DTVPal in Chicagoland, is what Macrovision wants us to use.... ???
But Macrovision also wants us to use the GLink connection between 3410a and DTVPal also, and I can't understand that at all. (When I told them the 3410a was ~100' of cable from the DTVPal, and I felt that 4x 3410a's fighting over one DTVPal would be counter-Productive......) They got 'irritated' with me, and told me my setup was "Un-Supported".

I replied that I've never seen ANYTHING about a "Supported" interconnect diagram or methodology that mentions LG3410a and DTVPal in the same document....

and with that ----- the Email door slammed shut..... !!!

The tone of the Email was such that I'm not sure if I'll ever hear from them ever again.....

frank70

05-07-09, 03:51 PM

As it turns out, Zipcode 00003 for DTVPal in Chicagoland, is what Macrovision wants us to use.... ???
But Macrovision also wants us to use the GLink connection between 3410a and DTVPal also, and I can't understand that at all. (When I told them the 3410a was ~100' of cable from the DTVPal, and I felt that 4x 3410a's fighting over one DTVPal would be counter-Productive......) They got 'irritated' with me, and told me my setup was "Un-Supported".Macrovision and Dish know absolutely nothing about a 3410a - they only know that the capability they've built into the DTVPal will make some 10 year old TV set that happens to have a TVGOS guide keep working when analog is gone. People with such a TV set, up until 12 June, bring up the guide, select the analog program they want to watch (now or future), and the TV tunes to that analog channel at that time. But if the owner of such a TV has cable, then he has a cable box and it's the G-Link cable that effects the tuning of a cable channel by sitting it's emitter in front of the cable box. Thus the G-Link cable and capability were provided to address a need. The G-Link cable wasn't necessary if the TV was receiving analog channels OTA, since it's tuner could select the OTA channel.

When analog channels OTA go away, and only digital OTA channels remain, not only is the (old) TV set unable to tune the digital channels, it is equally unable to tell a conventional CECB to tune to a digital channel via the G-Link because the format of the channel numbers (C.s, C-s, or in the annoying case of the DTVPal, 00C0s) is not something it can deal with - it only knows how to tune 1 to 3-digit cable channel numbers via the G-Link. Enter the DTVPal and Macrovision, which (Pal in TVGOS mode) perform 3 functions to trick the old TV back to life:

1) Convert the SCTE-127 VBI-in-MPEG data (from the digital channel tuned) to its analog outputs as normal NTSC VBI. This allows the TV to receive the guide, assuming the TV has some means to cause the Pal to tune to a TVGOS host (see 3 below.)

2) Provide (Macrovision) specially coded guide lineups for OTA (the odd zipcodes) as well as the regular OTA and cable lineups in the SCTE-127 data. These lineups substitute 3-digit cable channel numbers for the actual digital S-c channels seen in the regular lineups. The Pal becomes a fictional analog cable provider as far as the TV and TVGOS are concerned... quite possibly the ONLY cable provider that will NEVER do away with its analog channels.

3) Provide the means (G-Link) for the TV to send the 3-digit numbers to the Pal to cause it to change channels (both for purposes of tuning a desired program the user wants to watch, and for purposes of tuning to the digital host channel so the TV can receive guide data when the TV appears to be turned off.)

THIS ^^^^ THIS is the "approved" use of the DTVPal with a legacy device, and the only one that customer support personnel will ever understand. Your LG lies in the netherland of a TVGOS device that can tune digital channels just fine on its own, without any help from the DTVPal, yet needs the DTVPal to receive an analog guide, the only kind it can process. We have long hypothesized that the DTVPal could be used for exactly this, and you have effectively now proven that is true. No G-Link is required, though you must remember the rather non-trivial step involving the Scientific Atlanta IR transmission necessary to get the Pal going - no average consumer is going to understand that. This puts you smack dab into the "Unsupported" category - I doubt there's a CS rep who would have been intelligent enough to have dreamed up your (rather elegant) setup.

So there you go. You are simply being rejected for being too smart and for owning something a tad more sophisticated than a 10 year old TV set. :)

Jan J

05-07-09, 04:49 PM

Like the Bumblebee, who doesn't know that it's wing size cannot support its own body weight.... because it was never explained to him....
So because it doesn't know it's not supposted to be able to fly, it flys anyway!

That's kind-of how I feel right now!!!

Thanks for your post.... it fits with the analogy!

Jan J

05-07-09, 07:06 PM

Third unit now working fine.... Moved from ABC to DTVPal off CBS 2-1.

Unit #1 was first birthday'd and setup from Square One :)! Took 2 days instead of the normal 1 day.
Unit #2 and #3 were just re-locked from 7-0 ABC to 3-0 DTVPal. One worked immediately, the other took 3 days... and I was wondering if I would have to First Birthday it. Based upon this... I'm re-locking the 4th to DTVPal..

The BUMBLEBEE is FLYING!!! :)!

rfburns

05-07-09, 07:27 PM

I replied that I've never seen ANYTHING about a "Supported" interconnect diagram or methodology that mentions LG3410a and DTVPal in the same document....

And my guess is we never will. They state clearly "You only need to perform the following steps if you have a TV, DVD recorder, or VCR that includes TV Guide On Screen or Guide Plus." and the 3410a is clearly not one of those. Those are assumed to only have an ntsc tuner. When following the url to tvgos/support pages and being redirected to the new macrovision pages, there are only 3 products listed under the LG tab. I don't recognize them by the numbers, but no 3410a.

My situation must still be in flux. Still waiting for a guide. :(

frank70

05-07-09, 07:36 PM

Unit #1 was first birthday'd and setup from ground zero. Took 2 days instead of the normal 1 day.Jan, as my sage engineer-turned-English-major mentor from the 60s once reminded me, "ground zero" is where the bomb lands. Unless you want Unit #1 to blow up, you mean "square one". :)

avnstf

05-08-09, 12:38 AM

This part is (literally) HISTORY

So, although there is still no indication of the legacy stream locally, I decided last week to set up my DTVPal in readiness. So I joined the output from the Pal to the antenna signal going directly to my 3410a, and made sure that that was ready.

Then today, I got around to trying to set up my multifunction Sony remote to emulate a Scientific Atlantic remote, which was no big deal, since my remote's manual had the proper codes...at first I couldn't get the remote to work, even though the Pal was blinking when I punched in numbers with the remote set to Sci At. Then it occurred to me that maybe that only works when the Pal is in TVGOS mode (which it wasn't, because when the Pal powers up, it's in normal mode). So when I returned it to TVGOS mode, THEN my remote was able to change the channel.

(Subsequent to this post as originally written, the legacy stream appeared in the SF Bay area, and - with this setup - I see A and B packets to my 3410a at about the same rates as I see packets from PBS 9 and CBS 5, which broadcast TVGOS in our area...so far so good. However, although my unit rapidly acquired channel 3 as host, I did NOT get any listings for any of the zip code setups that I tried, despite getting channel lineups - this continued UNTIL I did the reset of CBS channel 5 ANALOG to channel 3, as discussed below...THEN I got listings (at least as of Sept. 11)!

So my current 3410a/DTVPal set up as of 9/11/2009) is:
(This also works for reinstating the clock/grid/lineup for the Sony 250, except for obvious differences in the diagnostic menus, AND the fact that you don't have to worry about changing the local TVGOS station in the lineup to channel 3/4, because you will probably be getting the program listings directly from the digital station.)

- LG3410a with normal setting, i.e., with TVGOS set to my real zip code and (in my case) for OTA only.

- The Pal set in TVGOS mode with output on channel 3 (though, depending on your area, you may need to have set the Pal output to channel 4), joined with the antenna feed going to the 3410a.

- Then, with my universal remote set with one of its slots now emulating a Sci At remote, I tune the Pal-already-in-TVGOS-mode to 151* (aka CBS 5.1, the TVGOS broadcast station in my area), after which the converted TVGOS data will show up in the output. (This step MUST be performed even if the Pal is already tuned to the TVGOS digital broadcast station, because it activates the TVGOS data conversion and insertion into the vbi of the Pal's output channel. As you press each number into the remote, you should see the front light of the Pal blink...)

- In the 3410a, you should do a channel scan with this setup, so that channel 3/4 appears (although this probably doesn't affect the unit's ability to initially find the Pal output on channel 3 as the host channel). If you then tune to channel 3/4 during an analog TVGOS download period, and then go into the diagnostic menu of the 3410a, you should be able to see packets A and B incrementing in the current channel column.

- My experience is that the unit will find channel 3/4 as its host channel pretty fast, and within a day (or at most 2) it will have a grid and a channel lineup. However, you won't get LISTINGS unless - as noted by rkg22 in the TVGOS thread - you go into the channel lineup editor in the TV Guide, find the CBS station broadcasting TVGOS data, turn it on if it isn't already, and change its channel to 3/4.

In the case of the 3410a, the channel lineup should have both analog and digital OTA channels (as well as lots of cable channels), though the analog channels would ordinarily be turned off for OTA. So in my case, the lineup had the CBS analog channel (KPIX 5) turned off, and the CBS digital channel (KPIX 5.1) turned on.

I therefore turned on KPIX 5 and changed its channel number to 3, and left the unit overnight. The next day I had the usual day 1,2,3,8 listings! (I was also able to set recordings from the guide, an amazing pleasure after doing without for months!)

NOTES:

*entering the channel into the SA simulating remote, you need to use the 3-digit number that is 100 + 10 times your digital broadcast channel. In my case, this is 100 + 10 X 5.1 = 151.

I have also found that - if I turnoff the power to the Pal (or there's an outage), when power returns, the Pal comes back on in TVGOS mode and STILL tuned to the channel it was one, but I still have to use the "SA" remote to reenter the channel number in order to once again activate the TVGOS conversion.

Some have said it MAY be necessary to make sure the Pal's picture mode is set to ZOOM before putting it into TVGOS mode, though this need is in doubt, as far as I can tell.

Jan J (here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16485886#post16485886)) has noted that if the Pal reboots due to power loss, it will come back in TVGOS mode, but it is necessary AGAIN to use the SA emulated remote to actively set the digital TVGOS channel again to activate conversion. I have found this to be the case.

Others have apparently experienced the Pal stopping its insertion of the converted TVGOS data into the vbi of the converted output on channel 3 or 4 after several days, so that one has to use the SA-emulating remote to change the to - or from and BACK to - 151 or whatever represents YOUR digital TVGGOS broadcast channel.(My own experienced is that this only happens if I have a loss of power.

I do, however, experience periodic - and perhaps persistent - problems with having to reboot my 3410a to continue getting listings...

frank70

05-08-09, 07:59 AM

- The Pal set in TVGOS mode with output on channel 3, joined with the antenna feed before going to the 3410a.Just make sure you've rescanned the 3410a to make sure it turns on and can display the new analog channel 3 (presumably it never had an analog 3 before).

avnstf

05-08-09, 01:18 PM

Just make sure you've rescanned the 3410a to make sure it turns on and can display the new analog channel 3 (presumably it never had an analog 3 before).
oh, yes, it's been set up for 3 ever since I got my DTVPal last summer, and it sees the Pal output fine (enough)...of course, I'll probably have to do a full rescan after June 12

avnstf

05-08-09, 06:02 PM

kev4321 announced that CBS 5.1 started broadcasting the legacy stream yesterday, so I just checked during this afternoon's analog download period and - after some diddling around with the Pal's picture mode before setting it to TVGOS mode - I saw packets at rates similar to what I was seeing from PBS 9 and CBS 5 analog!!! (setup described in yesterday's post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16421200#post16421200)

I'm not going to try to push the 3410a to 3 (the Pal output channel) as host channel at this time because I have no need to and because I don't really understand this apparent touchiness regarding picture mode - and furthermore, my 3410a just switched back to CBS 5 as host....and I have enough to puzzle about!

Anyway, good news so far...I might wait for a week or two before doing anything drastic, by which time most broadcast programs will have finished their seasons, and then...

JoeKustra

05-08-09, 07:22 PM

It's been several months since I've had any listings. I have a perfect clock and correct (if somewhat large) lineup. I've got my lineup down to 20 channels both in the LG setup menu and the TVGOS menu. I've done several resets (#10) and usually have to force the host channel or I get no lineup. As you can see, I'm cable only. My Sony DHD has listings. Any suggestions? I see the TVGuide white light sometimes, and always after a power cycle. It works ok as a VCR for recording, but I used to have listings before PBS shut down.

Jan J

05-09-09, 08:12 AM

I'm discovering that some of the commands we know and love may not be doing exactly as we think they are....

I'd like the help of others here to help confirm or deny this, PLEASE!!!

The TVG Diagnostics command in Messages: 753159852
What I though page 1 was doing:
Host ID (I'm not exactly sure---)
Host Channel Shows which channel you are getting TVG from...
VBI Channel Shows which channel you are locked to VBI from....

After the past couple days, and testing with 4 different 3410a's seem to confirm
What TVG Diagnostics are doing:
Host ID (I'm still not exactly sure..._
Host Channel I still beleive this shows which channel you are getting TVG Data from
VBI Channel (I now believe this is the last analog channel you ever tuned to!)

Also... Lock to current VBI Diagnostic 963214785
I not exactly certain this always changes the host channel number....

One of the 3410a's I had locked to DTVPal seems to have lost listings.
I always get TVG Data light when it turns off.
I still have a current channel list...
And after waiting till next morning, I still have No Listings when I go into TVG.

When I checked TVG Diagnostics (753159852) it reports Host Channel is now xB (PBS here in Chicago V8 TVG).... And VBI channel as x6 (??) I last watched something on 6-0 on analog tuner! So I exited Diags, set tuner for 3-0 and went back into Diags. Now VBI reports x3 (!!) Exited Diags, set tuner for 2-0 and back in Diags, VBI channel now reports x2

So I set tuner for 3-0 (DTVPal) and then Locked to VBI (963214785) and after it finishes, I go into Diagnostics, and now Host channel reports x0

Am I mis-interpreting something?

I'm wondering if there is one more command we have not yet discovered. where you can directly input a host channel number????

I'll watch this unit over time to see what channel eventually gets placed in Host channel location...

I'm beginning to think VBI channel in Diagnostics doesn't mean beans.

Jan J

05-09-09, 11:00 AM

3+ hours later.... TVG Diags Host channel now reports x3 (DTVPal) and there is some data....

So I'm answering some of my own questions!!

rfburns

05-09-09, 11:10 AM

Jan,
My understanding is vbi channel = currently tuned channel. (Or last tuned in your analogy, before entering a diagnostic menu). That has always been the case with mine. Such that tune to a channel (any channel i.e., analog, digital, av/1, av/2, etc.), and run the G* test and you are testing the currently tuned channel or input.

If you see packets incrementing then there is good chance that the channel/input is capable of supplying tvgos data. I have a theory however that the 'force host channel' procedure will fail if there is no usable data present when the command is given, in which case 'host channel' will revert to 0x0. Make sense?

ebo

05-09-09, 12:38 PM

Jan J

05-09-09, 01:02 PM

Thanks... That's info I'd not known before...

I know that this unit was locked (Host) to x3 a few days before.... Will have to watch it more often to try and determine when/why it changed....

Just goes to show you..... That by sharing info here -- we all benifit!

rfburns -- have you received any data yet?

Update: 6 hours later, I've got data to 10AM Tuesday! That's more than I would have expected...

rfburns

05-09-09, 02:26 PM

Jan, I'm receiving data again (I wasn't most last week), but still no lineup or listings.

ebo, thanks for enlightening us on the digital hex value formula. I was never able to decipher that on my own. Have you any thoughts on the value given when I'm tuned to A/V1? Notice vbi channel number in this attached pic. That's a really big number. :)

ebo

05-09-09, 03:50 PM

Have you any thoughts on the value given when I'm tuned to A/V1? Notice vbi channel number in this attached pic. That's a really big number. :)(VBI Chan 0x18000000) Nothing comes to mind. Maybe they arbitrarily picked a number much higher than any channel would yield. But it probably has more meaning than that. I wonder if it changes depending on whether A/V1 is set up as a cable box input or not (but I'm not going to disrupt my currently-working guide to try it).

I note that A/V2 is reported as 0x20000000. It's tempting to say that the 1 and 2 mean A/V1 and A/V2 respectively but they could just be bits controlling a gate to pass one or the other. 0x1 is 0001 in binary and 0x2 is 0010. 0x8 is 1000, so that could be a bit that enables TVGOS detection from A/V1 but not from A/V2. This is all pure speculation; I have nothing to back it up.

Jan J

05-09-09, 04:01 PM

I think you're both right!
Using Input button on remote, went to AV1 and then Diags.. VBI reports 0x18000000.
Then, went to AV2 and then Diags... VBI reports 0x2000000.

rfburns

05-09-09, 04:21 PM

Curious it is. My setup is cable yes, box no, and I have reliable OTA sources.

Question to those who answer cable yes during setup:

Using LG Menu>Setup>Ch. Edit, there are 4 tabs at the top.
TV | CATV | DTV | CADTV

My TV tab is grayed out, is yours? If I answer cable no, then after setup I have TV and DTV tabs available, but CATV & CADTV are grayed out.

I think it might be affecting how my 3410a gives preference to looking for tvgos input.

Jan J

05-09-09, 04:37 PM

Cable Yes, Cablebox No.
LG Menu/Setup/Ch Edit....
TV grayed out CATV, DTV, CADTV accessable.
Multiple units.

avnstf

05-09-09, 04:46 PM

Jan J:
As rfburns said, the VBI channel seems to be the channel tuned to when you do the test. If analog, it's just the channel number in hex. If digital, the last two digits are the subchannel and the two or three digits preceding them are the virtual channel (OTA) or real channel (cable) times 4.

whoa! ok, that removes my puzzlement about how the digital channels show up...5.1 showed as 1401, and I understood about the 01, but NOT the hex14, which equals 20. But yes, that is 4x5...now what I'm puzzled about is why the 4x!

and Jan et al...yes, I've been using the slicer screen (page 2 of the diagnostics menu) and the G* as equivalent in terms of A and B counts...

And since no one seems to confirm the bit about needing the Pal to be in zoom picture mode, I'm not going to worry about that.

Late last night, I spent a while just switching from 5 to 9 (our analog TVGOS sources) to 3 (from the Pal), then testing (with either the slicer screen of the G* test)....after a while I decided that channel 5 was giving me more A packets than 3 and 9...but then later, that seem to switch to 9....the trouble is the real rates actually change during a download period, and it's hard to make a firm comparison.

I don't want to do an actual force, but I may try the search for a new host command to push to 3, if I can find the page (of which I have a print copy somewhere) with that command...

Cheers - Tony

(As I mentioned in my setup description earlier, I've left my 3410a on OTA only and with my real zip code, so I'm hoping my unit picks up the same data from the Pal that I'm NOW getting via CBS 5...so far so good, but that'll be the real test for my purposes!)

Jan J

05-09-09, 05:10 PM

I came across reference to a BER Test.... in TVG posts.... ??
Usually that is a Reciever test for MPEG, Bit Error Test.

???

avnstf

05-09-09, 09:16 PM

...
I don't want to do an actual force, but I may try the search for a new host command to push to 3, if I can find the page (of which I have a print copy somewhere) with that command...
...

Well, I decided toward the end of the afternoon download to try the find a new host channel command, to see if it would latch onto the Pal's output channel 3...

Well, apparently it did a search and found that it still liked CBS 5...I'm pretty sure it went looking, because the total A and B counts in the first column of the slicer screen went from numbers in the HUNDREDS of thousands to about 3000, about the number it would have found during the 15 minutes or so that I left it alone...but the host is still 5! oh, well...guess I'll just wait until the analog TVGOS disappears...

(The only time I've ever gotten that command to work was one of the times PBS 9 stopped broadcasting TVGOS, and I knew - from doing the G* test with my Sony - that CBS 5 still had a vbi count... In that case, 5 was the host channel, and I had gotten an overnight download, the next time I checked...)

frank70

05-10-09, 07:44 AM

Host ID (I'm still not exactly sure..._
Host Channel I still beleive this shows which channel you are getting TVG Data from
VBI Channel (I now believe this is the last analog channel you ever tuned to!)

Also... Lock to current VBI Diagnostic 963214785
I not exactly certain this always changes the host channel number....It has always been so on the Sonys - VBI channel is the last channel you tuned to - 963214785 is a polite suggestion to the unit to use the current channel as the Host channel - it is quite often ignored by the Sony. I suspect the same for the LG.

Jan J

05-10-09, 10:36 AM

After a week of testing, I just sent the following to my two TVG contacts, as well as CE_Customer_Support@macrovision.com

You don't have to believe me, but you have a problem with the CBS to Comcast cable, as well as CBS 2-1 DTVPal feeds to LG3410a V7 TVG devices, that DON'T occur with WLS TV V7 TVG transmissions.

I have multiple V7 TVG devices (4)... All LG3410a's, and I'm seeing the following in Chicagoland:

If locked to WLS 7-0 off Comcast Cable: The LG3410a works fine. NO PROBLEMS getting TVG Channel Lists, or Listings.

If locked to CBS 2-0 off Comcast Cable: The LG3410a gets Cable Channel lists, and gets data, but in a couple days, stops receiving Listing data (As viewed by the TVG light on front panel of 3410a when powered off). TVG Diagnostics report Host channel is 0x2, which equates to 2-0 off Comcast Cable.
In order to get further listings, you must Power Cycle the 3410a, and then it will get data for another day or two, and then the same senerio repeats itself.
If I swap multiple 3410a's, and take units set for 7-0 and configure for 2-0, the problems swap between 3410a's, and this means the problem is coming from the Data Being Sent, Not a failure in a 3410a.

Furthermore: There is NO APPARENT DIFFERENCE between the data being sent via CBS 2-0 via Comcast, and Data being receved from a DTVPal in TVG Mode!!!
THIS IS IMPORTANT!!!
The SAME FAILURE that occurs with CBS 2-0 off Comcast, ALSO OCCURS with LG3410a's set to RF from a DTVPal in TVG Mode!!!

You are sending data in your V7 TVG stream off Comcast 2-0 AND DTVPal in TVG mode that will TURN OFF TVG reception on an LG3410a, and the only way to fix this is POWER CYCLE the LG3410a.

Since 4 LG3410a's work reliably off WLS 7-0 off Comcast Cable, and NOT on CBS 2-0 off Comcast Cable OR DTVPal in TVG mode (coming from CBS 2-1 in Chicagoland)... This rules out the 4 LG3410a's, Comcast Cable, and points directly at incorrect data being sent from CBS via 2-0 and also 2-1 (decoded by DTVPal in TVG mode).

Please contact me for more information if this is un-clear, or you wish further testing...

Jan Janowski

rfburns

05-10-09, 02:29 PM

This morning I noticed the white guide light had gone out. It was good news because I was finally asked to select a lineup! Now I'm turned off and waiting to collect guide data (white guide light back on).

This next part is where I have now become unsure of where my data is coming from and part of my question from yesterday. In all my years I have always selected cable yes and box no. I also have an antenna for OTA hooked up. In the past I used to receive tvgos data from OTA, and my cable service never passed tvgos on the cable feed from OTA source. I remember doing experiments trying to get it from cable by unhooking my antenna feed with never any luck. Naturally I never expected my cable service to change, especially since in Feb. my tvgos provider (PBS) turned off their analog transmitter.

Well yesterday for kicks I ran the G* test on my analog cable channel 13 (PBS) and saw packets incrementing. Hmmm. Interesting. I also have my dtvpal in tvgos mode tuned to OTA 13.1 and connected to my 3410a using AV/1 as input (no coaxial connection). I run the G* test on AV/1 input and see packets incrementing there as well.

My host channel reports 0xD = channel 13 as it should. But which channel 13? 13 from my cable channel 13 or 13 as pseudo NTSC mapped from AV/1 input?

Until yesterday I was convinced my dtvpal was providing the new data, but now I wonder if my cable has finally picked up the ball. Obviously I won't care as long as one or the other continues to work. It is likely I'm seeing a new roll-out here that may be affecting both of my sources.

If and when I start having reliable tvgos service again I can isolate one or the other to determine the source. For now I'm going to resist the temptation to experiment further.

I had thought yesterday about combining the rf output from the dtvpal to the antenna input on the 3410a. That led me to the dilemma that I had no way of 'turning on' channel 3 under the TV tab in Ch. Edit, because I always choose cable - yes. (The TV tab is grayed out). Apparently selecting cable makes it impossible to tune to any of the analog NTSC channels under the TV tab? I can tune to them if I select cable - no and doing a re-scan. I must be missing something obvious here?

It's got me excited again to see something happening!

avnstf

05-10-09, 05:06 PM

You are sending data in your V7 TVG stream off Comcast 2-0 AND DTVPal in TVG mode that will TURN OFF TVG reception on an LG3410a, and the only way to fix this is POWER CYCLE the LG3410a.

This is exactly the problem that I had beginning LAST May with the TVGOS data from PBS 9 here...I had to unplug-replug my unit every night before I went to bed, if I wanted to get data overnight...this behavior continued until Thanksgiving, when Gemstar was screwing around and both my units lost listings from 9, but my 3410a spontaneously switched to CBS 5, which did not exhibit the previous problem! After that, every time my unit went BACK to 9, the problem reappeared....I was REALLY sick of it after almost a YEAR (during which time, by the way, it was suggested on this thread that I should replace my capacitors...)

This didn't change until PBS 9 shut down its TVGOS broadcasts...and when they reappeared a month or so ago, they - either PBS 9 or Microvision - had somehow (perhaps inadvertently) FIXED that dam*** problem...FINALLY!

Jan J

05-11-09, 12:04 PM

I got a reply from a fellow... They've not received any notes indicating the need for a Power Cycle on 3410a's in order to continue receiving data...

So I've given them a link to this page.... If anyone is having problems with LG3410a needing to be power cycled every couple days to continue receiving TVG data... Please post here.... As I'm including a link to this page to my report....

P.S. Probably tomorrow I'll Re-configure my DTVPal fro 00003 to 60076. Rumour has it that 00003 might need GLink connection, and 60076 doesn't.

rockin robin

05-11-09, 07:08 PM

Hi Jan J!
So far I have not had to do the Power Cycle like you have described unless the TVGOS system locks up for some reason. However, in GBA46 here in S. Florida I have been unable to receive reliable TVGOS data via Comcast cable since the end of January. Perhaps your contact can respond to this? TVGOS techs keep insisting that it is my cable signal strength but Comcast came out over a week ago and all tested out perfectly!
Also, the TVGOS techs decided my trouble ticket was "Solved" last week even though data has not been forthcoming? I sent them another email right after I discovered their error but they haven't responded to any of my emails in over three weeks!
Someone on some thread reported that in GBA43 data was being transmitted. Maybe GBA46 is coming???
I can only hope! At least they may read our dilemmas and make an attempt to respond to our appeals. Tell them I am thinking TIVO may be my answer!

Thanks for all you and all the other AVS members do to help all of us befuddled but hopeful TVGOS fans!!
Robin
GBA 46 Jensen Beach, FL
Comcast Expanded Basic/analog
No set top box

Jan J

05-11-09, 09:12 PM

rfburns...
You tried composite video out of DTVPal in TVG Mode (Home Zipcode or Gooney Units?) to which input on 3410a?
I'm going to try it Tuesday (tomorrow) night (Locking to Video Input 1 or 2 with home Zipcode, based on your answer).
At least Noise on Decoded signal will be out of the equation!

rfburns

05-11-09, 09:45 PM

I got the mysterious "green light of death" tonight. Did the ritual and have guide back, but still no listings.

Jan, yes I'm using the rca output from the dtvpal > A/V1 input on the 3410a. Zipcode = real.

Jan J

05-11-09, 10:29 PM

AV1 input it is!

Scottxray

05-12-09, 02:39 AM

Jan,

I have my 3410 hooked up to Cable, no box. I also split the signal and ran the cable feed to the anntenna input, since the mitsubishi trouble shooting guide on TVGOS ( posted here a while back) for their tvs indicated to do so on their system.

Previous to trying this trick I have not received ANY guide data at all, including channel lineup for at least 8 months

Since I starting trying to use the device again, I can reliably get channel lineup on the first overnight off, after a first birthday. No actual schedule data is ever downloaded though. And without performing the 2 second, unplug replug trick, the guide lamp will never light after the channel lineup is selected. Althought the guide lamp lights after a power cycle, no schedule data is received.

Diagnostics show host as channel 10 (0A) (pbs) and I am receiving slicing data on that channel. G test looks the same as yours from a week or so ago. Analogs pass, and others fail.

I have locked the host to 10, with no apparent change.

I currently don't have a TVPal as I've been waiting to see if anything is going to work reasonably well as far as guide on the 3410.

rfburns

05-12-09, 07:55 PM

I guess I don't know so much. I've discovered some of my prior assumptions are incorrect. I did some more experimenting and discovered my cable co. must be responsible for my new found tvgos data. (I never expected this, because they never had before).

How do I know? I unplugged my dtvpal and ran the G* test on AV/1. It passed and showed incrementing packets??? I then ran the G* test on AV/2 and had incrementing packets (A/V2 is turned off in menu > setup and nothing plugged in). :confused:

I then ran G* test on cable ch. 13. It has packets and incrementing. G*test on OTA ch. 13.1 has no packets (of course). G* tests on other likely cable channels have no packets.

I had been assuming my dtvpal was converting the data from 13.1 and delivering it to my 3410a via AV/1 and being recognized as 0xD. wrong.

I'm confused even more now about the significance of cable ch. 13 and OTA ntsc tuner ch. 13. We know that we can't combine cable and OTA signals together.

Question: Which rf input would be correct to combine with since I already use both?

ebo

05-13-09, 11:46 AM

Question: Which rf input would be correct to combine with since I already use both?Jan J has already covered this pretty well in recent posts, but if you're using both antenna and cable, with the 3410A set for cable but no box, then it will look for TVGOS only on analog channels on the cable input. You'd have to insert the DTVPal's RF output (either ch. 3 or 4) into the cable feed to the 3410A using the appropriate combiner. These inexpensive (about $10) combiners aren't perfect, so they'll not only trap out the chosen cable channel, they'll also adversely affect adjacent channels. Jan suggests selecting ch. 4 because ch. 5 is not adjacent to it; they're separated by 4 MHz for OTA and standard cable. HRC and IRC separate them even more and insert a ch. 1 between them, so if you have a ch. 1 it would be affected by a ch. 4 combiner. See these CATV Frequency Charts (http://www.cabl.com/restaurant/freq.html) for details.

If you say you have cable and a cable box, you'd connect the composite output of the DTVPal to the A/V1 input of the LG; the LG would then try to control the DTVPal via G-Link. According to the manual you could still tune digital channels both OTA and unencrypted cable from their respected RF inputs, but I gather that you could not tune analog cable channels with this setup, just as you cannot tune analog OTA channels if you tell the LG you have cable. I haven't tried it.

rfburns

05-13-09, 07:13 PM

These inexpensive (about $10) combiners aren't perfect, so they'll not only trap out the chosen cable channel, they'll also adversely affect adjacent channels.

If you say you have cable and a cable box, you'd connect the composite output of the DTVPal to the A/V1 input of the LG; the LG would then try to control the DTVPal via G-Link. According to the manual you could still tune digital channels both OTA and unencrypted cable from their respected RF inputs, but I gather that you could not tune analog cable channels with this setup, just as you cannot tune analog OTA channels if you tell the LG you have cable. I haven't tried it.

ebo,
I'm beginning to understand better how the 3410a is programmed to 'look' for data. It is apparently strict in where it chooses to look based on choice given for cable yes/no. Thank you.

I am understanding what Jan is doing too. His setup is much more elaborate than mine. And I'm sure he is using more than a simple combiner. He spoke of a notch filter device and an inserter.

It seems a simple ch. 3/4 combiner device will not work with standard cable tv in that channel 2 and on up are already occupied and the combiner does not do any notching (reason for highlighting above). See here. (http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/apr99/articles/cplus/cplus.htm)

I suspect you are correct about loosing the ability to tune analog cable if I choose cable box = yes. :( I'll try that experiment another day.

albertso

05-13-09, 07:40 PM

avnstf

05-13-09, 09:18 PM

Jan & RF,

I am having some luck with the Pal feeding AV-1 input of the 3410a. G* test shows good packets and, after resetting the slicing data, I have collected 7100 A packets and 40000 B packets in 24 hours. Channel table has added the 191, 141 type channels in addition to the 9.1 and 4.1 type that were originally there. BUT, I have no program data. Any ideas, other than that the local CBS channel is sending "no data" data.

Thanks,
Albertso, I'm curious about a couple of things...I assume you mean "no listings" data, because from what you said, you must have a grid...yes?

How long has it been since you got the A and B packet data you cite...they seem to have about the same ratio as I get with my setup, i.e., number of A = 15% x number of B (more or less)...

my setup is still 3410a: real zip, NO cable (OTA only)
rf output of Pal joined with antenna cable going to 3410a

I haven't tried to force the 3410a to get output channel 3 as its host

But maybe I'll check in detail how much my CURRENT host (CBS 5) give me of A and B packets in 24 hour, just for comparison...

albertso

05-13-09, 09:59 PM

Hi av,

Yes, I have a grid, just no program data. I got the packets within the past 24 hours.

Setup is 3410a, Cable, Cable box, connected to AV-1, G-Link control. Box selected as Scientific Atlanta. G-Link verified as emitting data and changing Pal channels.

I did not force the channel. I was all automatic. G* test shows good packets, but only about every 3rd time I select it. It also changes the channel it is looking at during the test period,

The guide started with only my OTA channels manually entered. Now the grid has the "3-digit" equivalents also.

Will be interested in your findings about your incoming packets.

Hope this helps.

avnstf

05-13-09, 11:32 PM

But maybe I'll check in detail how much my CURRENT host (CBS 5) give me of A and B packets in 24 hour, just for comparison...
ok, I checked my unit at 7:15 PM, and it has gotten 138,000 A's and 662,000 B's since my last reset (this occurred when I tried to push my unit to channel 3), which was 4 days ago, during the afternoon 180-minute download on May 9, so let's say 4.15 days. That implies approximately 33,000 A's and 160,000 B's a day...or an overall total average of about 8000 packets per hour (or 2.2 packets/second) with 20% as many A's as there were B's.

This is about 4 times the rate you saw, Albertso, but remember I'm not measuring the same thing, exactly, because these are packets straight from analog host channel (assuming I'm done everything right - including my arithmetic).

I'll try to check tomorrow around the same time, just to see if the daily numbers are right...

The daily average total packets per second of 2.2 is somewhat higher than I expected, although not outrageously so...the other day,when I was switching my unit from channel 3 (Pal output) to PBS 9 and CBS 5 (both with analog TVGOS), I was getting 2 to 3 packets per second (total A and B) on all 3 channels, and according to the schedules I see from my Sony (which gives more detail), there must be about 20 hours of TVGOS transmissions per day (4x3 hours of program info + 4 x times for each of the other 3 types of data)...I'll have to check the total broadcast times to verify this...

For whatever it's worth - Tony

Jan J

05-14-09, 09:08 AM

Past few days I've been working long hours.... Which has turned into a blessing in disguise regarding TVG stuff with 3410a's...

The 4 3410a's are presently set up as:
One locked to CBS 2-0 off Comcast cable
Three locked to DTVPal RF CH3 (Which I mixed into cable feed with a cheapie CH3 inserter -- ComSpec SC3).
Here's a simelar unit: http://www.summitsource.com/pico-macom-tru-spec-sc3-signal-combiner-channel-3-106030-ch3-6-stage-bandpass-bandstop-filter-and-adjustable-attenuator-part-201030-p-8484.html

Anyway... I was getting simelar results on both: 2 or so days of data, then have to power cycle (No Listings)...
Was going to test AV1 but never got to it.

Also, just before the days of long hours, received an email from "Someone in the know" who said that you can only reliably receive TVG on channels where there is an Icon.
CH3 (Where I put it) doesn't have an ICON on Comcast cable). He went on to say that though I could lock the 3410a to a channel, after a couple days somehow the system (TVG, or 3410a or _____???) would 'know' that the channel I'm locked to did not have an Icon, and then would stop receiving data... That's what I sent him in the email I posted on last page....
Of course, he didn't comment on my findings that CBS off 2-0 ALSO had to be power cycled (and that DOES have an Icon) in order to continue to receive TVG data. Somehow he forgot to answer that question.
So his comments were that because I am locked to CH3, and I have no CH3 Icon in the TVG List for Comcast-Skokie ----- THAT's the reason why I have to power cycle the 3410a's every couple days -- in order to continue receiving TVG data. In other words, Since the only Icons that have TVG are 2-0 7-0 (He forgot to mention 11-0, but maybe that's because 11-0 is only TVG V8 ??) ---- I would have to modulate my TVG onto Ch 2-0 or 7-0 in order for it to work.
He also contradicted the previous email I got from his associate by saying I should set DTVPal up for my Real Zipcode 60076, not the Gooney Units Zipcode 00003 (I haven't got around to test that yet, but it IS working on 00003) ????

Anyway, I then had a few days of long hours.... Wife commented last night that she had to power cycle 'DVR2' (Locked to CBS 2-0 off Comcast) Tuesday due to No Listings.

This morning, I checked all 4 DVR's.... for TVG data, and for how long TVG data was in the list. DVR1, 3, 4 are locked to DTVPal (Zipcode 00003) CH3-mixed into cable feed, DVR2 locked to CBS 2-0 Comcast

DVR1..... Guide till Saturday then a gap, then intermittant listings till Sunday, where it goes No Listings.
DVR2..... Guide till Saturday then a gap, then intermittant listings till Sunday, where it goes No Listings.
DVR3..... Guide till Sunday... No Gap
DVR4..... Guide till Saturday then a gap, then intermiitant listings till Sunday, where it goes No Listings.

Surmations:
1. Doesn't seem to be much differences between CBS 2-0 off Comcast, or DTVPal 3-0.
2. Both seem to need power cycles now and then.

Maybe there is something about the "no Icon" for TVG Host channels, but I'm not seeing any direct relationship that follows a hard and fast rule...

DVR4 is my experimental one... I'll try the DTVPal set for CH4 and 60076 Zipcode hosed directly into Cable input on 3410a (CH4 DOES have an Icon (That's the Comcast TVPreview channel, and an Icon IS SENT). That should confirm or deny the "Host Needs an Icon to reliably work" senerio....

This will take a few days, and I won't be able to configure it till later tonight.

JoeKustra

05-14-09, 06:38 PM

I know my host channel makes sense (0xF).

But what does the Host ID of 0x3516 mean? Any pointers are appreciated.

Still have clock, lineup but no listings. Maybe I'll try an antenna. It sure can't hurt anything.

rfburns

05-14-09, 06:44 PM

rfburns

05-14-09, 07:07 PM

Jan & RF,

I am having some luck with the Pal feeding AV-1 input of the 3410a. G* test shows good packets and, after resetting the slicing data, I have collected 7100 A packets and 40000 B packets in 24 hours. Channel table has added the 191, 141 type channels in addition to the 9.1 and 4.1 type that were originally there. BUT, I have no program data. Any ideas, other than that the local CBS channel is sending "no data" data.

Thanks,

Fred,

I think you are properly set up and simply waiting like the rest of us. I will likely try an OTA only test with mine this weekend. From cable I now have a grid, but it never gets populated. I'm also having frequent lock-ups like the old days too. :(

FWIW, I think tvgos is still putting all the pieces in place and the entire market is still in flux.

frank70

05-14-09, 07:21 PM

jan & ebo,

Help me understand better these inexpensive signal combiners. I had read they were not for use on 'cable tv' systems. My cable tv already has channels 3 & 4 occupied. Do these devices really notch out the existing channel and insert the new one in its place? If so I'd be willing to fork over the $ and try one. I was under the impression the cheap ones did no notching.Unamplified: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=SPSC4

Amplified: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=40-SC4A

Both also available in a channel 3 version. They do what they are claimed to do and are indeed necessary if your cable channel 3 and 4 are occupied (in which case, you need to decide which one you are willing to give up.)

albertso

05-14-09, 07:55 PM

RF, Thanks for the confidence builder. That's how I feel too. Will keep you all posted if anything changes here in the Wash, DC area.

Jan J

05-14-09, 09:01 PM

Specs on the Channel inserter reveals about a 25db notch in the inserter. I'd rather see 40 or more db, but for $10.....
By antenuating the cable 10 or so db, that can remove an existing channel. Comcast's TVG screen is on CH 4 here, and I forgot what they have on CH3. I'm notching them both out, and replacing it with 2 insteters wired back to back... CH4 followed by CH3, followed by an amp, to get signals back where they should be....

I'm doing another test... As I said, Comcast's TVG is on CH4, So there is a Logo for that in LG3410a. I've another DTVPal, and set that for Zipcode 60076, and Channel 4. Set it back up for TVG, and issued the SA 121 code to it.... Took RF off DTVPal (Ch4 ONLY), and connected it to the Cable input on 3410a.

On 3410a, Channel Setup, CH4 was already there. In Icon Setup, found the Comcast TVG icon and Enabled it, and moved it to the top of my listings.

Went into TVG/Messages, and did G* test on 3410a. TVG Passes when set to 4-0.

Went back into TVG/Messages, and LOCKED to 4-0 (TVG).

At this point, it's just a test on one unit, as 2 others are still locked to another DTVPal on CH3, and one is locked to 2-0 off cable.

If this works, and works reliably, I switch the entire system from CH3 to CH4 (because I have an Icon for CH4 on Comcast)...

I'm feeding just DTVPal to Cable input, to verify that the 3410a won't find any other channel... (at least, that's the plan....)

We having fun, yet?

annonatx

05-14-09, 10:50 PM

frances50

05-15-09, 07:53 AM

Thanks to many of the AVS forums, my guide is back.

I have an LG HDTV with built in DVR and TVGOS. The guide disappeared when the local (Austin,TX) PBS station stopped analog broadcasts. I don't have cable so use only OTA HDTV.

Here are the steps I took to get the guide back:

1. Buy DTVPAL+, put into TVGOS mode.

2. Split my incoming antenna signal, side A going to the DTVPAL input, and side B going to side B of a second splitter.

3. Connect the output of the DTVPAL thru a 6-db attenuator to side A of the second splitter.

4. Connect the common of the second splitter to the TV's antenna input.

(The above steps send an weak channel 3 from the DTVPAL to my TV, along with the regular over the air signals).

5. Program my Phillips universal remote to control a Sci-Atlanta cable box (code 155).

6. While watching analog ch 3 on my TV (the DTVPAL output), I used the Phillips remote to tune the DTVPAL to local CBS 42-1 (entered 521 I think).

7. I went into the TVGOS setup menu of my TV and entered an Austin postal Zip code (78705) and selected antenna, no cable box, as the input.

8. Went to bed.

9. Next evening, my guide with that evenings programming was there.

A miracle.

MyTV is a 50PX4DR, with a base TVGOS version 8.1.44.
I'm assuming that LG never did respond to your queries about your version working with digital TVGOS. I'm very disappointed in LG in this area. My area still does not have a host channel but will in the next few weeks (PBS will be transmitting the TVGOS in South Carolina). I will probably not buy a DTV Pal. I already have a C-band satellite system that I use for FTA programming and many, many receivers hooked to the back of my television, plus a home theater system hooked into the mix. So, I guess the final answer is that any version less than 8.01.65 will not work with digital TVGOS. Thanks.

Frances

Jan J

05-15-09, 09:13 AM

Chicagoland Update:

2 3410a DVR's on DTVPal Zipcode 00003, CH3 RF Mixed back into cable. Still getting data, with power cycles needed (Haven't power cycled these 2-- in 2 days-- going to let it go to 'see what happens')

1 3410a DVR on CBS off cable CH2. Power cycled 2-3 days ago, because of "No Listings". This is supposed to be a "Supported" configuration.

1 3410a DVR on DTVPal set for Zipcode 60076, on Channel 4. On this DVR, Enabled CH4 Icon (Comcast TVGuide), and Locked to CH4. Prior to re-lock to CH4 from CH3, had TVG Data till Sunday. TVG Light is on DVR when off.... Awaiting new data.

Rammitinski

05-15-09, 03:30 PM

FWIW, I think tvgos is still putting all the pieces in place and the entire market is still in flux.According to Macrovision, the host channels and the TVGOS device manufacturers, it needs a special data stream to work - the Pal supposedly doesn't work with the standard digital TVGOS signal.

I would think that if it's not going to work the way it's described in the Pal manual (or anywhere else it might be detailed), then it's not going to work at all. If there's another way, I'm pretty sure they would/will release that information.

annonatx

05-15-09, 05:02 PM

I'm assuming that LG never did respond to your queries about your version working with digital TVGOS. I'm very disappointed in LG in this area.
Frances

I waited 3 weeks (they promised an answer in 1 week) and called LG again. A TVGOS 'expert' named Louis called me the next day to tell me that my set will not work with DTV and that I need to buy a DTVPAL or that other brand which I forget now.

I told him that I was disappointed with LG, as they knew when they sold the set that analog TV was going to disappear, and that they should at least buy a DTVPAL for me. The answer was no. I asked him for instructions on using the DTVPAL with my set and he did not have any. I asked why they could not upgrade the set to work with DTV, but he had no answer.

If it were not for this forum and the DTVPAL forum, a customer would be out of luck.

I think a class action suit would be in order here.

I will not buy another LG product.

Rammitinski

05-15-09, 05:56 PM

....I need to buy a DTVPAL or that other brand which I forget now.That would be the Artec T3APR-T.

avnstf

05-15-09, 06:59 PM

I would think that if it's not going to work the way it's described in the Pal manual (or anywhere else it might be detailed), then it's not going to work at all.
Ramm - It seems to me that the way it's described in the manual would turn the the 3410a into a very expensive standard-definition receiver-recorder. Or do you think the manual's setup (having the 3410a tune the Pal to a digital channel to record the converted analog signal) would do otherwise?

Tony

(except for this little point- which happens to be the most important one, as I see it - I agree with what you said)

Rammitinski

05-15-09, 07:53 PM

My point as far as the 3410a goes, though, is that if there was currently a known way to do it, don't you think they'd have come out with that information by now?

Why would they not be at all vague about how to set it up with other recorders except the LG and the Sony's (or any other kind of device with a digital tuner)?

And doesn't the fact that it doesn't work for the most part with legacy recorders everywhere else tell you that maybe that "other, proper data stream" just isn't available there yet - and that's really the main issue?

Some things to think about, anyway.

Jan J

05-15-09, 10:17 PM

And doesn't the fact that it doesn't work for the most part with legacy recorders everywhere else tell you that maybe that "other, proper data stream" just isn't available there yet - and that's really the main issue?

Some things to think about, anyway.

Not having any other TVG device, I wasn't aware that others were having 'issues' as well...

Jan J

05-16-09, 08:57 AM

The experimental unit that was locked to DTVPal Ch4, Zipcode 60076 connected directly to Cable input of 3410a..... Stopped receiving data altogether, even though G* Test off CH4 still passes. Listings have not increased since start of this test, and confirmation that Host channel was converted to 0x4.

So...

I've switched that test 3410a back to the DTVPal CH3 Zipcode 00003 mixed back into cable.... to see if it starts getting data there. Host shows 0x3

I'd like others to post... Which DTVPal Zipcode works best.... Your real one, or "Gooney Units" ?????

avnstf

05-16-09, 12:05 PM

I've switched that test 3410a back to the DTVPal CH3 Zipcode 00003 mixed back into cable.... to see if it starts getting data there. Host shows 0x3

I'd like others to post... Which DTVPal Zipcode works best.... Your real one, or "Gooney Units" ?????
where are you putting the 00003 zip code? In your Pal or in your 3410a TVGOS setup?...if in your Pal, it doesn't affect anything once you put it into TVGOS mode. (I ask, because the way you wrote it is ambiguous..)

cheers - Tony

rfburns

05-16-09, 12:15 PM

Jan & the group,

Let's be clear on the zipcode issue. I recognize the table that lists the alternative or 'gooney' zipcodes, but where are you using them?

I know the dtvpal has a place to enter a zipcode when you first set it up, but that is for 'normal' use and should be your real zipcode correct?

My understanding is the alternative zipcode is to only be used with the tvgos enabled device correct? (Our case 3410a). And only for those who need the 3410a to change channels for them (on the dtvpal) using the g-link while searching for a host, correct?

Do I have this straight in my head? Someone fill me in here if I'm wrong. FWIW, I have never tried an alternative zipcode and have never used the g-link.

Jan J

05-16-09, 01:05 PM

rkg22

05-16-09, 01:31 PM

Sorry for being confusing.... 00003 and 60076 refers to DTVPal Zipcode.
In emails with TVG folks, I've been told to use 00003 by one, and 60076 by another!

I always use 60076 on 3410a's....

By the way, The test change I posted above was because I couldn't get 60076 in the Pal to work with 3410a, so I went back to 00003 (switched to different Pal) to see if that would help... I'm still awaiting Listings.... Though it did report the change in Host from 0x4 to 0x3.

Getting contradictory information is confusing, ain't it?.
hi janj - my current test is dtvpal into panny dmr-e95 v7 tvgos ONLY ( to guarantee that the only TVGOS feed will be from the pal ) ... feeding OTA RF to the pal, and feeding panny with RF channel 4 input... panny is set to cable service with no cable box... in this config, using real zip ( 89052 ), the only thing i ever got was the panny getting time of day updates... no host ID, no host channel, no lineup... switched to goofy zip ( 00074 ) on panny... within a few hours, i got a host chan, host id, but no displayed lineup, even though there was a lineup number populated in the diag screen... i then went to setup mode, chose ' yes, but channel lineup incorrect '... this led me to the panny channel editor. an entire compliment of stations were displayed, with many turned on already... i then manually added a few more by assigning a channel and turning them on.... i then exited, went back to tvguide mode, and the lineup was displayed with ' no listings ' ... then waitied about 12 hours so far, and still have the lineup displayed in the grid, but with no listings... went back into diag mode and confirmed that hot id, host chan, lineup number were still there... they were, however, the lineup number assignment had changed from ' 4Cxx ( can't recall last 2 digits ), to ' 4C00 ' ... this was a change, probably due to my having done some manual updates to the channel lineup... after an hour or so, still no listings, but lineup remains static, along with host id, host chan, vbi chan, etc... all indicate correctly that the machine is listening to the PAL, which is expected since that's the ONLY source connected to the panny at this time ( wish i still had an o-scope to watch the VBI directly )... my sense is that i am, indeed, receiving everything the PAL has to offer at this point, but that the OTA signal is NOT feeding actual listing data yet... i'm concerned that i can only get to a host id and host chan by using the goofy zip. this may not be totally true, so after another 24 hours, i'll restart and use the local real zip to see if the panny picks up a host id and host chan using that.... it did NOT on the 1st go around, but i may not have waited long enough, or the panny might have been locked up on its own ( i had done a cold reset and goofy zip after the cold reset )... i'll advise further in 24 hours....rg

rfburns

05-16-09, 02:35 PM

avnstf

05-16-09, 02:47 PM

I'm still hoping that, when my analog channels disappear, my test DTVPal setup (link below) will then get picked up as host channel (3) in my 3410a. It definitely delivers vbi packets at rates comparable to my present host channel (CBS 5), but I haven't tried to force my unit to channel 3 as host while I'm still using it heavily for recordings. But in a week or so (after most network programs have ended their seasons), I may try.

[As noted in my setup post, my test setup has 3410a set normally (real zip code and OTA only), and the Pal is set in TVGOS mode (zip code in the Pal probably doesn't matter in this case), after which I turn the conversion mode ON by tuning the Pal to CBS 5.1 using the "151" channel code from my emulated Sci At remote, at which point the Pal starts delivering vbi packets to my 3410a...(The Pal output joins with the antenna cable going to my 3410a.)]

(The other reason I haven't tried to push my unit to the channel 3 input yet is that the leakage of existing analog broadcast channels through the Pal, although small, is still enough that when I initially tested in February the 3410a still locked onto PBS 9 as its host - in that test only the Pal output went to the 3410a, with NO direct antenna signal joined to it...)

Cheers - Tony :)

(Jan...I think people are confused here about what you say about the zip code issue, because the MANUAL indicates the fake zip code is to be used in the TVGOS unit the Pal is serving, which makes sense if it is serving a purely ANALOG device, since it will want to pick out the lineup with the fake channel numbers!)

Jan J

05-16-09, 11:36 PM

So Jan, If I'm reading what you say correctly, someone from tvgos told you to place the gooney zip in the dtvpal?

And you are saying that doing so influences the output of the dtvpal when placed back in tvgos mode? And that you have evidenced this to be true?

Sorry to be so full of questions today. This one is short circuiting my brain. :)

BTW, welcome aboard rkg22.

YES... Email from one fellow says to use 00003, and Email from another says use 60076.... No wonder I get confused at times...!!

avnstf

05-17-09, 02:13 AM

YES... Email from one fellow says to use 00003, and Email from another says use 60076.... No wonder I get confused at times...!!
Jan - it's easy to be confused, especially if BOTH of them are giving you a bum steer, since it probably doesn't MATTER what you put in the DTVPal if you're using it in TVGOS mode...what matters is what you put in the TVGOS unit! Tony

(By the way, in the TVGOS thread, bwall23 reports success using a Pal to convert data for his Mits TV with TVGOS...which I guess is version 8, based on the format for his host channel..he used his real zip code in the TV (NOT the substitute zip code), which I was glad to see...http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16474592#post16474592

frank70

05-17-09, 07:19 AM

Jan - it's easy to be confused, especially if BOTH of them are giving you a bum steer, since it probably doesn't MATTER what you put in the DTVPal if you're using it in TVGOS mode...what matters is what you put in the TVGOS unit! TonyThink about this for a minute: in either normal mode or TVGOS mode, for what possible reason would the DTVPal CECB ever need to know your zipcode? I believe the ability to enter a zipcode was put in strictly for software and operational compatibility with the DTVPal DVR, which does have a reason to know your zipcode (i.e.: because it does interpret digital TVGOS data to produce its guide.)

Jan J

05-17-09, 09:06 AM

Here's an interesting senerio I submit:
For the past 2 weeks, ever since I mentioned the 2-3 day power cycle needed for TVG to work with CBS 2-0 and DTVPal....... I've been testing, and here are the symptoms:
Chicagoland
4 LG DVR's... 1 locked to CBS 2-0, 3 Locked to DTVPal. All set for Cable Yes, Cablebox No.

I check One, go into TVG, and scroll to end of data... and it's filled for an entire week. !!!
WOW! I'm patting myself on the back! Success! I power off the first and check the next.... Same! 3 SAME!! 4 SAME!! All are the same!! TVG locks up next time unit is powered up.... Only work-around is pull AC Power for 10 seconds, and power up again.
So I repeat the entire senerio... and when they all fill to a week of TVG, check again..
After powering down the 4th, I decide to program a recording... So, power it back up again... "INVALID AV RECORDING" and TVG won't come up.... In other words, I have to pull the AC cable, and power cycle it, which I do, and all returns to normal after power cycle.
The unit in question was the one locked to CBS 2-0 off cable, my "Supported" unit.

On a hunch --- powered up a 2nd unit. SAME "INVALID AV RECORDING" message, and TVG is Locked up! You're Kidding Me!
Powered up 3rd unit.... SAME!
Powered up 4th unit.... SAME!

Spent about an hour trying to find a key combination that might reset TVG without removing AC Power from 3410a... Never found one.

After Power removal, after it reset clock, a power up acted perfectly normally.

I'm beginning to wonder if TVG, when it fills to the 1 week point, and still receives data, overwrites the Programmed Recording Memory, and corrupts the TVG OS, which shows the "INVALID..." Message and locks up TVG until it gets power cycled -- Power Plug removal....