It's been a while since I stopped in here. Good to see the digital transition is going so smoothly. :rolleyes: You guys are pretty amazing.

Jan wrote:
> CH4 followed by CH3, followed by an amp, to get signals back where they should be.... <

Assuming you've got the headroom, wouldn't putting the amp at the head of the chain give you better C/N? Just curious. If it's working to your satisfaction, it's probably not an issue.

- Tim

My results mirror rfburns's results...

Tried Real Zip in Pal, Real Zip in 3410a for 3 days... Locked to channel ok, TVGuide lit when off, but never got any channel listings....

So far, my only success has been with 'Gooney Units' Zip in Pal, 'Real' Zip in 3410a.

Also, since I'm relying on my DTVPal more and more.... I moved the wall wort that powers the Pal to the same UPS supply that powers 3 of 4 LG DVR's here.
Reasoning: On a power failure, it will remain operational. I've noticed on a Power cycle, it will go back into TVG mode, but not in the SA channel mode, so they'll be no TVG in VBI.
So, I moved it to a UPS.

I noticed at 5:00 my guide light had gone out. I turned it on and it went straight to a new grid of OTA only stations. The grid has all the stations I expected and numerous out of area ones I did not.

This time is unlike when I usually get asked to first pick a lineup when using cable.

Most stations have icons, the others are identified by call letters. Channel 3 has no icon or other descriptors.

I plan to leave it this way overnight.

I still have 'no listings' displayed in my grid.

Well, about 3 PM today, I decided to check whether I was still seeing A and B packets from the channel 3 output of my Pal.

Last night, around midnight, when I checked, I didn't see any at first, and checked analog 5 and 9, and then RESET my Pal to 151 (CBS 5.1), and then saw vbi counts from 3. I decided, however, that what had probably happened was that I did the test during an intervalbetween TVGOS broadcasts...

So I decided that I would check channel 3 once each day, just to make sure that there isn't something in the Pal that screws up if it doesn't experience any channel changes (due to searching for the legacy data stream, or whatever)...thinking of the problem Jan has been having.

Anyway, at 3 PM today, when I had tuned my 3410a to channel 3, and went to the diagnostic screens to look at the packet counts, on the opening screen I saw:
host channel 0x3
vbi channel 0x3
!!!!!
For some reason, the unit apparently decided to switch to 3 as host...maybe induced by what I did last night, I don't know. (And, by the way, I DID get a day 8 download sometime between midnight and 3 PM.)

BUT, when I checked again at 4 PM, my host channel was back to: 0x5

Go figure...Tony :confused:

I still have 'no listings' displayed in my grid.
I'd say the odds are you have program info tomorrow...:)

By the way, as indicated in my setup, I have ignored the substitute zip code, because it seemed silly to put it into my 3410a (as dictated by the Pal manual), and I never even considered putting it into the Pal (both because of the manual and because it made no sense to me in terms of what the Pal was doing when in TVGOS mode...)

I waited 3 weeks (they promised an answer in 1 week) and called LG again. A TVGOS 'expert' named Louis called me the next day to tell me that my set will not work with DTV and that I need to buy a DTVPAL or that other brand which I forget now.

I told him that I was disappointed with LG, as they knew when they sold the set that analog TV was going to disappear, and that they should at least buy a DTVPAL for me. The answer was no. I asked him for instructions on using the DTVPAL with my set and he did not have any. I asked why they could not upgrade the set to work with DTV, but he had no answer.

If it were not for this forum and the DTVPAL forum, a customer would be out of luck.

I think a class action suit would be in order here.

I will not buy another LG product.
If the DTV Pal works for your LG, it would probably work for mine. Since reading your post, I may purchase one next month when Columbia finally gets a digital TVGOS host. LG dropped the ball when they manufactured our televisions (a Macrovision engineer told me as much). Why they didn't spend the extra and add digital capabilities to their TVGOS systems for their digital televisions is beyond me. LG had to realize that at some point when analog went away, the TVGOS devices they were putting in their digital televisions would be crap. Poor planning. I used to believe in LG but I'm not sure I will buy another product from them.

Thanks for all the help.

Frances

If the DTV Pal works for your LG, it would probably work for mine. Since reading your post, I may purchase one next month when Columbia finally gets a digital TVGOS host. LG dropped the ball when they manufactured our televisions (a Macrovision engineer told me as much). Why they didn't spend the extra and add digital capabilities to their TVGOS systems for their digital televisions is beyond me. LG had to realize that at some point when analog went away, the TVGOS devices they were putting in their digital televisions would be crap. Poor planning. I used to believe in LG but I'm not sure I will buy another product from them.

Thanks for all the help.

Frances

LG should send us a PAL if they want happy customers. My wife wants a new fridge, and we are going to avoid the LG's.

I found my DTVPAL+ at Sears for $60, so with a Converter Box card, was $20.

The guide here is still working! I need to check what happens if I have a power failure; do I have to re-program the PAL?

LG should send us a PAL if they want happy customers. My wife wants a new fridge, and we are going to avoid the LG's.

I found my DTVPAL+ at Sears for $60, so with a Converter Box card, was $20.

The guide here is still working! I need to check what happens if I have a power failure; do I have to re-program the PAL?
I have a UPS hooked to my electronics. You can get one of those at Best Buy or some other electronics store for under $200.00. I also have a generac generator that kicks in after a minute of power loss (but I live in the country and don't want to freeze to death in a winter ice storm). It would be a bummer to have to re-program the DTV Pal in the case of a power failure. I am expecting my coupon in next week and then I will go to Sears and purchase the DTV Pal. I may e-mail you back if I have any problems setting it up.

I know what you mean about LG. I did buy their front loader washer/dryer combo and I've been happy with it but this deal about not supporting the digital TVGOS is really disturbing.

Frances

LG dropped the ball when they manufactured our televisions (a Macrovision engineer told me as much). Why they didn't spend the extra and add digital capabilities to their TVGOS systems for their digital televisions is beyond me. LG had to realize that at some point when analog went away, the TVGOS devices they were putting in their digital televisions would be crap. Poor planning. I used to believe in LG but I'm not sure I will buy another product from them.In fairness to LG, how much did they know about Gemstar's plans to move TVGOS to digital? How much did Gemstar (and later Macrovision) know about its own plans? They got SMPTE registration for TVG1 and TVG2 (http://www.smpte-ra.org/mpegreg/tvg1.html) on 8/7/2003. That's a bit late for LG to add support for it in their design of the 3410A. I doubt that Gemstar had all the details worked out even then. Especially since it's apparent that Macrovision still doesn't have its act together about data formats; they still occasionally send bad data that at best cause receivers to lose guide info and at worst make them act up in strange ways.

I can fault LG for many things--using low-quality capacitors, circuit designs that don't work if the voltages are off by a few tenths and the inability to upgrade firmware easily to name a few--but failure to support a future standard isn't one of them.

My wife wants a new fridge, and we are going to avoid the LG's.What? :eek: How can you tolerate a fridge that doesn't have a TV in the door??

frances50
You should be able to find a DTVPal cheaply... I'm not using the Plus version, but a early version of the DTVPal.

My concern is TVG related. I'm not certain if the problem's we are encountering are V7 TVG issues, as it was implemented in the board residing in the LG.
Anyone who has tried to troubleshoot it via the documentation in the manual has their hands full, I'm certain...

I believe the reason for it's demise was legal...... I think it made too good of a recording.....

It's a shame they can't come up with a TVG patch to get rid of the "Invalid AV Recording", which I believe is TVG overflowing the Listings area, into Programmed memory and OS, crashing TVG, and requiring a Power Reset. ---- However, if you've ever looked at the proceedure to upgrade TVG firmware..... You'll realize it is a REAL BEAR!!!! -- Far, Far, Far more complicated than firmware upgrade in the 3410a.

That's why rather then deal with a firmware upgrade, when I heard they were to stop making this DVR, I went out to the store and brought the latest model I could at B&H a few weeks later.

Fooey! Came home today and was hoping I might have some listings for my current test of OTA only input. First thing I noticed was all my clocks were blinking. Great, I lost power sometime today.

What I did find:
Guide light was off.
The 3410a had a clock, but it was exactly 1 hour behind. Turned it on and found I still had a grid/lineup, but 'no listings'. (I pretty much expected that).

Next I went to the main diagnostic screen and noticed it had lost host (0x0). I then went to the next page and notice all slicing data reset to 0. Also, not showing any incrementing packets.

I remembered what Jan said yesterday about a power cycle on the dtvpal, so I gave the pal the SA command again. Exited LG tvgos then went back in and saw brand new packets incrementing and slicing filling in. Sure 'nuff. This will be important for those who will use the dtvpal like this in the future. Host still 0x0, but I'll give it a while. Good thing I've got all the time in the world. :D

When I turned the machine off the clock instantly adjusted 1 hr. forward to the proper time.
Guide light is on.

update: confirmed host channel now 0x3. It found it quickly. I did not force anything. guide light on.

Fooey! Came home today and was hoping I might have some listings for my current test of OTA only input. First thing I noticed was all my clocks were blinking. Great, I lost power sometime today.
...
When I turned the machine off the clock instantly adjusted 1 hr. forward to the proper time.
Guide light is on.

update: confirmed host channel now 0x3. It found it quickly. I did not force anything. guide light on.
well, still looks like it's moving forward - so I revise my hope/estimate to...there's a fair chance you'll have listings tomorrow (yes...I know you know that might happen)

PS...it appears you guys in Stillwater need still power...:)

PPS although my unit is still using CBS 5 as its host, I had ANOTHER of those moments when I checked the diag screens and found it had 0x3 for the host channel, but - again - it didn't "stick" for long...I suspect that when it goes searching for the next download, if 5 hasn't started ITS download yet, the unit searches to see if ANOTHER channel has one starting...:confused:

In fairness to LG, how much did they know about Gemstar's plans to move TVGOS to digital? How much did Gemstar (and later Macrovision) know about its own plans? They got SMPTE registration for TVG1 and TVG2 (http://www.smpte-ra.org/mpegreg/tvg1.html) on 8/7/2003. That's a bit late for LG to add support for it in their design of the 3410A. I doubt that Gemstar had all the details worked out even then. Especially since it's apparent that Macrovision still doesn't have its act together about data formats; they still occasionally send bad data that at best cause receivers to lose guide info and at worst make them act up in strange ways.

I can fault LG for many things--using low-quality capacitors, circuit designs that don't work if the voltages are off by a few tenths and the inability to upgrade firmware easily to name a few--but failure to support a future standard isn't one of them.
A HDTV manufactured in 2005 with TVGOS (version 08.01.29) should have been able to carry the digital TVGOS as well as the analog. The technology was there. The engineer at Macrovision told me that LG had been informed at the time of the problem they would encounter in the future with the limited software they were installing in their HDTVs but chose to ignor the advice. So, now my two digital HDTV's won't pick up the digital TVGOS. Yeah, I'm a little bummed about that especially considering how much I paid for them. And the lack of a phone call from LG is really irritating. I'll bet they've gotten a lot of calls on this lately and unless pinned to the wall, won't give the definitive answer that our digital sets won't work with the digital TVGOS.

I can't speak for the 3410a. I don't own one of those.

Frances

A HDTV manufactured in 2005 with TVGOS (version 08.01.29) should have been able to carry the digital TVGOS as well as the analog. The technology was there. The engineer at Macrovision told me that LG had been informed at the time of the problem they would encounter in the future with the limited software they were installing in their HDTVs but chose to ignor the advice. So, now my two digital HDTV's won't pick up the digital TVGOS. Yeah, I'm a little bummed about that especially considering how much I paid for them. And the lack of a phone call from LG is really irritating. I'll bet they've gotten a lot of calls on this lately and unless pinned to the wall, won't give the definitive answer that our digital sets won't work with the digital TVGOS.

I can't speak for the 3410a. I don't own one of those.

Frances

i have to agree with frances50... the DTV transition stuff, as well as TVGOS, have been around for 10 years or so... while it is true that the technology to support this stuff was ( and still is ) emerging, these manufacturers don't make toasters, they make hi-tech electronics. i'm an electronics engineer with about 30 years of experience in RF, computer hardware and software design, etc... i'm certainly not an expert on tvgos, nor am i an expert on DTV. but i DO know that for a LONG time, TV tuners have been CHEAP ( like 10 bucks to make that component based upon technology that's at least 10 years old... and i DO know that electronic accessory hardware, eg, a TVGOS sub-system, falls into the same category. my software experience tells me that it's EASY, to implement a sub-system that can be EASILY updated in terms of its firmware. digital QAM tuners have been around for at least 10 years, so there is NO valid reason for my 2004 panasonic DMR-E95 to have NOT had a digital capable tuner sitting alongside its analog tuner in anticipation of an event as momentus as the DTV transition. and there is NO valid reason that my rev 7 TVGOS subsystem could not have been implemented with base firmware such that it could be updated to, say, rev 9, beyond anticipated RAM requirements. unanticipated ' feature sets ' notwithstanding, all of the manufacturers have done an extremely poor job of design planning. i am not in the industry, but even i could figure out that there would be major trouble in terms of design planning when i first heard of the transition. anyway, sorry to rant, but here i sit with a product that's less than 5 years old, purchased partially due to a feature ( TVGOS ) that, had i been aware as a consumer of the somersalts and backflips i'd have to do in order to keep it from being obsolete, i would never have purchased... IMO, the manufacturers in general have done a major disservice to its customers by setting us up to have failures ond obsolescence such as this... it's analogous to bill gates, who sold the consumer on the idea that a PC is just an ' easy to use toaster with a few more buttons ' ... obsolescence is certainly inevitable with any product, however, obsolescence in less than 5 years is, IMO, completely unethical... my 2 cents worth...

Still no listings for me via OTA. :( I can confirm my 3410a can get a clock and it finds the proper host channel from either my cableco or OTA (using a dtvpal). It goes so far as to get a grid/lineup with each, but I've never gotten listings yet either way.

I have to conclude that tvgos is present again, but not fully functional for my v7 device. It is encouraging to know I have 2 ways to get it if/when they can make it happen.

I'm curious if newer version devices in my GBA are getting complete data. Think I'll try posting in my local thread for an answer.

If you can, try this... Feed the Pal ouput to your cable input, and set up for Cable yes, cablebox no.

That's what I doing here, & it works like a champ!! I moved the last unit away from 2-0 off cable, and now all are running off the Pal off 3-0

If you want, I'll try OTA only.... on experimental unit... Tell me how you got TVG data in.... zipcode, etc.

Jan, you read my mind! That was going to be my next test. I ordered one of those ch. 3/4 inserter boxes and should have it by the weekend. So I kind of need to see the results of this next test before I begin using it.

So Jan J...are you still experiencing the lockup problems as earlier?

In the DTVPal thread, where at least some people are finding that their lineups only have the digital MAIN channels (.1's), I speculate (here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16498532#post16498532)) about whether this is because the v7 guide does not have the capacity to handle many channels, so they're not including the added digital channels in the lineup for the Pal's "substitute" zip codes....and I'm wondering whether this might contribute to lockup problems if the additional digital channels ARE contained in the legacy stream for the REAL zip codes...

However, I now realize I don't know whether you ARE getting digital subchannels with your Pal setup!?

...OR whether you've EVER seen digital channels is your 3410's TVGOS lineup...I assume not, since I haven't on my unit...(This has never been a big issue with me, since I essentially only watch or record high-def, and substituting the main .1 channels for the analog channels in the lineup has always worked for this, except for PBS...which until a year ago had different programming the high-def channel than on the analog channel...)

(questions, and more questions...) Tony

At various times, I've received Correct OTA channels for OTA listings, but mostly I'm still getting cable channel numbers that I have to Re-Direct...

Yes, I'm still getting lockups on average of once ever 2-3 days..... The Invalid AV recording... or TVG just refuses to load at all --- I have our units set to NOT display TVG on power on.

I did bring this to the attention of TVG/Macrovision.... and I suggested that the TVG data was over-writing the Listings area and possibly into the programmed recordings area, and OS causing TVG not to load.... and got this response:



"The issue at hand is with the LG DVR and not the TV Guide data. We have plenty of other units from LG and other manufactories working off of the TV Guide data in the Chicago area. I can’t say why the LG DVR LG3410a has the issues it has and LG is the only place where you can get the answers. Our engineers built the TV Guide software to LG’s specs and LG puts the finial touches on it. The only problem is that I think LG stop supporting this device. Unfortunately there is nothing else that I can do for your unsupported set up and the LG3410a. "

I have not had this issue of two day lockup prior to CBS 2-0 or DTVPal..... But I know that others have mentioned having to power cycle the unit to keep it working....

The unfortunate part is: I've NEVER had TVG listings as quick and full as with the DTVPal!!!!

I'm waiting for a shipment of a part, so that I can take 3 3410a's and "Try Something" as a work around..... and if it works, it will be an inexpensive solution that anyone could implement... No dis-assembly or soldering... for this problem...

If I mis-interpreted the wording: Main Channels .1 --- Educate me... At times I miss the point, and have to be hand-held.....

"The issue at hand is with the LG DVR and not the TV Guide data. We have plenty of other units from LG and other manufactories working off of the TV Guide data in the Chicago area. I can’t say why the LG DVR LG3410a has the issues it has and LG is the only place where you can get the answers. Our engineers built the TV Guide software to LG’s specs and LG puts the finial touches on it. The only problem is that I think LG stop supporting this device. Unfortunately there is nothing else that I can do for your unsupported set up and the LG3410a. "
...
The unfortunate part is: I've NEVER had TVG listings as quick and full as with the DTVPal!!!!
...
If I mis-interpreted the wording: Main Channels .1 --- Educate me... At times I miss the point, and have to be hand-held.....
I'm sorry/angry to hear about the MV/LG stuff...especially since I haven't seen anyone else in this thread who has really succeeded with use of the Pal!

by "main" I meant the high-def channel, e.g., CBS 5.1 or PBS 9.1, as opposed to - say - 9.2 and 9.3.

I was just checking because I wondered if any overwriting might be due to the inclusion of more channels, if they were including the additional subchannels...I kind of doubt they are, because I've noticed people in the DVTPal thread saying they aren't getting the subchannels...

anyway, curious to know whethr you've been getting subchannels in your OTA lineup...

Jan, others,
FIRST let me say that it is probably quite likely that there is NO V7 TVGOS out there in the Ft. Myers FLA market to be found !!??

Anyhow my setup is OTA only -
- My DTVPal is set to ONLY receive ONE channel (my local CBS - I've tried PBS also.) I LOST all TVGOS for V7 6 months ago, Lost V8 (SONY) on 2/17.
- My 3410 is set to cable=yes box=no with the only possible (IE - activated) cable channel being 3-0 (which is the signal from the Pal plugged into the cable RF port on 3410).
- The channel list for the ANT RF port of the 3410 only allows Digital channels.
- The Pal is put into TVGOS mode BUT no SA channel selection made.

RESULT = GUIDE light always on. Retains correct channel list. All recording must be manually programmed. Manual clock set. NO LISTINGS - ever.

RE: SA channel mode - I haven't done this step but I know my Pal IS in TVGOS mode. I don't recall any instruction in the Pal manual on this ???? ANYHOW is this a must to receive (ACTIVATE) converted TVGOS from the Pal? And if so what channel number do I key in to get 11-1 OTA (Physical 9)


excerpt From Jan's post 6001:
Reasoning: On a power failure, it will remain operational. I've noticed on a Power cycle, it will go back into TVG mode, but not in the SA channel mode, so they'll be no TVG in VBI.

At various times, I've received Correct OTA channels for OTA listings, but mostly I'm still getting cable channel numbers that I have to Re-Direct...

Yes, I'm still getting lockups on average of once ever 2-3 days..... The Invalid AV recording... or TVG just refuses to load at all --- I have our units set to NOT display TVG on power on.

I did bring this to the attention of TVG/Macrovision.... and I suggested that the TVG data was over-writing the Listings area and possibly into the programmed recordings area, and OS causing TVG not to load.... and got this response:



"The issue at hand is with the LG DVR and not the TV Guide data. We have plenty of other units from LG and other manufactories working off of the TV Guide data in the Chicago area. I can’t say why the LG DVR LG3410a has the issues it has and LG is the only place where you can get the answers. Our engineers built the TV Guide software to LG’s specs and LG puts the finial touches on it. The only problem is that I think LG stop supporting this device. Unfortunately there is nothing else that I can do for your unsupported set up and the LG3410a. "

I have not had this issue of two day lockup prior to CBS 2-0 or DTVPal..... But I know that others have mentioned having to power cycle the unit to keep it working....

The unfortunate part is: I've NEVER had TVG listings as quick and full as with the DTVPal!!!!

I'm waiting for a shipment of a part, so that I can take 3 3410a's and "Try Something" as a work around..... and if it works, it will be an inexpensive solution that anyone could implement... No dis-assembly or soldering... for this problem...

If I mis-interpreted the wording: Main Channels .1 --- Educate me... At times I miss the point, and have to be hand-held.....

avnstf & janj -

i hope i'm not covering already trampled ground here, but i had a revelation this morning about some things...

1 - i've tried, with little success, getting this stuff working using severl combinations... the farthest i've gotten is to get a partial lineup showing only digital OTA channels ( including PAL MAPPED channel assignments )...

then nothing more...

2 - i've used both gooney and real zip codes...

my config is to feed ONLY the PAL into my panny v7 DVR...

the only time i got thru to getting an actual partial lineup ( no listing time grid, though ) was to use config the panny for cable = yes, box = yes...

BUT, my intent is to use the panny's analog tuner, not the PAL.. and just get the listings from the PAL ( via channel 4 insertion to the main cable feed )...

Revelations -

1 - in its intended mode, the PAL expects SA channel commands, and expects to be cycled through an ' analog cable enabled channel range '

2 - lockups - i believe that the PAL does NOT actually lock up, but stops responding to SA commands for a LONG time, when it is commanded to a channel where there is no signal for its tuner to lock up on... when the tuner is unlocked, the PAL is so busy trying to lock onto the RF OTA frequency that it does NOT respond to SA commands while doing this.

my lack of patience when this occurs forces me to power cycle the PAL to get it to respond... in this mode, the PAL DOES respond to its OWN remote codes, threatening to return to regular mode... when i tell it NO, it reverts back to non-response TVGOS mode.... so it is NOT really locked up... it's just too busy to respond... ( this might be a bug issue, but i have a work-around )...

3 - REVELATION - the PAL MUST BE CYCLED through its channels BEFORE it will complete its process and feed a channel lineup ( whatever the lineup might be )....

after i got ' the search for data has failed ' after many hours of waiting, i MANUALLY forced the PAL to tune to the known OTA reception channels, and then returned to the known TVGOS stream channel...

the PAL immediately sent a HOST ID to the panny, and the panny populated its HOST ID and HOST CHANNEL....

the panny is now waiting for lineup info.... in my market, the next guide transmission for listing is scheduled about 2 or 3 hours from now...

if my theory is correct, i'll get some sort of lineup....

i think that the PAL will not convert / pass TVGOS lineup stuff until it actually has something ( albeit partial ) in its database to use for ' channel mapping '

again, if correct, bottom line is to give the PAL what it needs from a device in order to make it start working FULLY... eg, if you're NOT using cable=yes, box=yes, you need to ' emulate ' that mode by manually forcing the PAL to fill its mapping database with something.... eg, use an SA remote to cycle thru the known channels.... and then wait....

rg

RE: SA channel mode - I haven't done this step but I know my Pal IS in TVGOS mode. I don't recall any instruction in the Pal manual on this ???? ANYHOW is this a must to receive (ACTIVATE) converted TVGOS from the Pal? And if so what channel number do I key in to get 11-1 OTA (Physical 9)


Yes. It seems this is one caveat to using the dtvpal in tvgos mode. Scroll back a few pages and you will find where this has been discussed recently.

You will need a remote control that can emulate a Scientific Atlanta cable box. After entering tvgos mode you must give the SA 3 digit command for the channel you want to tune to (even if you are already tuned to it)!

A quick formula to convert is to drop the decimal and add 100. For you channel 11.1 > SA command = 211. (111 + 100 = 211)

It should be safe and harmless. Give it a try.

One nice thing about multiple units is you can begin to get a 'feel' on software bugs....when multiple units do the same thing... With the recent information from TVG folks, (In Effect, blaming LG for any current TVG issues)... And LG not willing to do anything to or for a product that 'no longer exists'... It's up to us to develope work-arounds for whatever problems we encounter.

I'm beginning to think that 3 differerent "things" that happen to our units may be interconnected, and are actually the same problem showing up as different symptoms, depending on where the software program is at, at that time.....

These are things that occurred before, (Before CBS Analog and DTVPal TVG) but seem more apt to happen since TVG off DTVPal....
"Thing 1": Power up unit, and are greeted with: "Invalid AV recording" or something like that...
"Thing 2": Power up unit, hit TVG and though Green LED on unit flashes, nothing happens....
"Thing 3": You've scheduled a recording, and it powers up, but never records. Afterwards, it may not power down.

I'm beginning to think these are all different symptoms of the same problem.

Once I get a shipment, I'm going to try something with 3 of the 4 units... If it works, the three should be fine, and the 4th should continue to do same problems... If it helps, I'll post my resultes... If it doesn't, I'll post what I tired, and what did and didn't work... and maybe someone else can come up with a solution

I'm maybe a week to 10 days away from a point where I can post any results...

My LGTV and Pal are still working, with all local channels and sub-channels showing up on the guide.

I too saw the slow response to SA cmds and thought I was not entering valid codes. The slow response explains what I saw. I will experiment with "power loss" this weekend.

My TVGOS has now downloaded a 'new' code version, with data as follows:

8.1.41 / 8.6.44
Host St = 0x82
Host ID = 0x41
Host Ch = 0:0-3
VBI Ch = 0:0-42

No ATSC slicing shown on that status screen.

This is Austin, Tx with Pal tuned to Ch 42-1, output Analog ch 3.
Over the air only, TV is LG 50PX4DR.

i have to agree with frances50... the DTV transition stuff, as well as TVGOS, have been around for 10 years or so... while it is true that the technology to support this stuff was ( and still is ) emerging, these manufacturers don't make toasters, they make hi-tech electronics. i'm an electronics engineer with about 30 years of experience in RF, computer hardware and software design, etc... i'm certainly not an expert on tvgos, nor am i an expert on DTV. but i DO know that for a LONG time, TV tuners have been CHEAP ( like 10 bucks to make that component based upon technology that's at least 10 years old... and i DO know that electronic accessory hardware, eg, a TVGOS sub-system, falls into the same category. my software experience tells me that it's EASY, to implement a sub-system that can be EASILY updated in terms of its firmware. digital QAM tuners have been around for at least 10 years, so there is NO valid reason for my 2004 panasonic DMR-E95 to have NOT had a digital capable tuner sitting alongside its analog tuner in anticipation of an event as momentus as the DTV transition. and there is NO valid reason that my rev 7 TVGOS subsystem could not have been implemented with base firmware such that it could be updated to, say, rev 9, beyond anticipated RAM requirements. unanticipated ' feature sets ' notwithstanding, all of the manufacturers have done an extremely poor job of design planning. i am not in the industry, but even i could figure out that there would be major trouble in terms of design planning when i first heard of the transition. anyway, sorry to rant, but here i sit with a product that's less than 5 years old, purchased partially due to a feature ( TVGOS ) that, had i been aware as a consumer of the somersalts and backflips i'd have to do in order to keep it from being obsolete, i would never have purchased... IMO, the manufacturers in general have done a major disservice to its customers by setting us up to have failures ond obsolescence such as this... it's analogous to bill gates, who sold the consumer on the idea that a PC is just an ' easy to use toaster with a few more buttons ' ... obsolescence is certainly inevitable with any product, however, obsolescence in less than 5 years is, IMO, completely unethical... my 2 cents worth...

It is baffling that this category (TV's A/V equipment in general) of consumer electronics has lagged so far behind behind computer software and others (such as MP3 players) in software/firmware update capability. There is a firmware update for the DMR-EH50 (Panasonic) but it's minor and about 3 years old. You download it, burn it to DVD put in the Panny. Oppo releases firmware updates for their DVD players the same way. Tivo allows internet updates, as does Roku and a couple of others. Maybe the manufacturers feel that most of their customers don't have broadband, wireless routers, and aren't going to get them any time soon?

I get that Gemstar didn't have all the details for transitioning to digital figured out when TVGOS v7 was first released. I'm more annoyed that they won't update it. It's not that I am unwilling to buy a new DVR with the latest TVGOS version. It's that there isn't one that can be bought with an ATSC tuner, DVD burner, and the latest TVGOS version. I'd even pay them, say $25 or so, for updated software and given how I hate to pay software subscription fees that's saying something.

My LGTV and Pal are still working, with all local channels and sub-channels showing up on the guide.

I too saw the slow response to SA cmds and thought I was not entering valid codes. The slow response explains what I saw. I will experiment with "power loss" this weekend.

My TVGOS has now downloaded a 'new' code version, with data as follows:

8.1.41 / 8.6.44
Host St = 0x82
Host ID = 0x41
Host Ch = 0:0-3
VBI Ch = 0:0-42

No ATSC slicing shown on that status screen.

This is Austin, Tx with Pal tuned to Ch 42-1, output Analog ch 3.
Over the air only, TV is LG 50PX4DR.
I am a bit puzzled...your unit is version 8, shows subchannels...iit's basically more like the Sony 250 that the 3410a...

I checked my test DTVPal setup about an hour ago, during the afternoon program download period, and found that - unlike my last check several days ago (I don't remember exactly when) - my 3410a found no vbi packets coming with the channel 3 Pal output, but it DID detect packets as usual on PBS 9 and CBS 5.

So I used my SA emulating remote to give the Pal "151" again, but this made no difference. So I hit the power button on the Pal remote, which yielded the screen asking if I DID want to change the mode, to which I responded "no". After I AGAIN entered 151 on the "SA" remote, I could again see A and B packets from the Pal.

This seems to confirm others' observations that the Pal stops functioning after some period of time if left alone, unless it is set up as in the manual for an analog device...if the TVGOS unit is not set up to control the Pal as if it were an SA cable box, the Pal seems to stop its TVGOS conversion after some number of days...

This seems to confirm others' observations that the Pal stops functioning after some period of time if left alone, unless it is set up as in the manual for an analog device...if the TVGOS unit is not set up to control the Pal as if it were an SA cable box, the Pal seems to stop its TVGOS conversion after some number of days...

These companys!!!

I switched mine over to a UPS on 5/17/09 which should remove some variables... I still have the scope set up in by the 'experimental' unit, and can watch any Analog channel the TV can tune. I'll keep an eye on CH 3-0 occasionally.

In preparation for my test, I documented the TVG data received.
Set for Cable Yes, Cablebox No... Locking to TVG off DTVPal off Ch 3 (which I mix back into cable feed)

DTVPal set for CH3 output (Because CH4 the preferred channel, is already in use)
The unit that mixes in CH3 and CH4 notch out the CH3 & CH4 feeds from cable, and re-insert local CH3 & CH4 signals into cable feed.

DTVPal set for:
"Gooney Units" (00003) Zipcode as opposed to Real Zipcode (60076)
Booted into TVG Mode. SA codes 121 sent to DTVPal (121 = 2.1 - where CBS is in Chicagoland)
At this point, TVG Data is visable in VBI of CH3 TVG signal, and 3410a Passes G* Test on CH3.

FOUR 3410a units in the test.... 3 powered via test, 1 plugged into wall.

On 3410a, G* Test gets data off CH3 on all 4 units.
All 4 locked to CH3 for Host.
On all 4, I get 143 icons, of which I select 33-35 to get data (ON), and I do re-direct the OTA channels to OTA Channel numbers (these are delivered as Cable channels...)

RESULTS WITH HOST BEING CBS 2-0 off Cable OR DTVPal: After 2-3 days, I get one of the followinng failures:
1. On Power up, "Invalid A/V Recording" and can't get into TVG (TVG Locked up).
2. On Power up, can't get into TVG (TVG Locked up).
Possible 3rd senerio: Schedule a recording, it powers up, doesn't do recording, and forgets to power down.
The only work around for these was un-plug the power, wait 10 seconds, and plug it back into AC again....
I am believing that the above 2 and possibly all 3 are caused by the same thing: TVG is locked up.... WHY?
(I SURMISE) that the data from CBS and DTVPal exceeds the data from prior OTA TVG Channels, which over-writes and corrupts channel recordings: "Invalid AV", and crashes the TVG OS.
Yes, I've had the above 3 problems with prior OTA TVG Channels, but not as often not as repetitive as since CBS 2-0 or DTVPal TVG (3-0) delivery, which Macrovision says is working fine with other TVG V7 products. I only have one TVG device, so I cannot dispute that, or they (Macrovision) haven't done their homework......... Macrovision says a CBS 2-0 TVG is a "Supported" setup, but DTVPal 3-0 is an "Un-Supported" setup, yet they both act the same here on 4 different units!
I have informed TVG/Macrovision, and they claim all is the same (data Delivery) and TVG works with other products fine. They claim it is LG's fault. And we all know what LG says right now... "No Longer a Product"...

So it is up to us to fix these things.... if we can....

More History that has been stareing us in the face for years:
Mr. Hifi (and others) for years has been saying that he's had to un-plug his 3410a in order to get data. I ignored him, because I wasn't seeing it as regularly as Art, and others who posted this.... and you know how it goes.... If it isn't a problem for you, you overlook it... I'm now wondering if this is the same thing I was seeing, a lockup of TVG????
Art and others found a way around it, but it is labor intensive. I've been doing same thing as he since locking to DTVPal TVG... Now it's becoming a pain.... Now that it is a problem for me, I'm looking into a way around it....

I'm Sorry for not putting 2 and 2 together before, Art.....

So, my test, which started at 6:31 AM today:
I bought a digital lamp timer that allows 23:59 minute maximum "On" time, 1 minute "OFF" time.... and put it on the UPS that feeds 3 of the 4 3410a's... and I got up this morning to verify it worked.... The 4th 3410a is plugged into the wall, as a 'control' unit... So it reboots 3 of 4 3410a's every day.... Just like Art has had to do....

I chose 6:31 AM as "On" time, 6:30 AM as "OFF" time (every day) because prior emails with 'people in the know' mentioned the primary time for TVG data transmission was overnight, till ~6AM, and Wife says she has never done any recording at this time... (Last thing I want to do is turn off her DVR's during a recording!! :)! :D! )
So for now, I'm hoping that 3 of the units do no lock up TVG any more, and keep working..... and the 4th continues to need a power cycle every 2-3 days...

I will be able to monitor the CH3 decoded TVG data on a scope, examining the VBI, to verify that TVG data remains available to all the 4 units....

Seeing that TVG/Macrovision claims there is no problem with TVG delivery, but TVG is locking up every 2-3 days, and LG has moved on to bigger and better appliances..... I'm guessing we are on our own to fix this.... I'll keep you informed how the test progresses. Wish me Luck!

I bought a digital lamp timer that allows 23:59 minute maximum "On" time, 1 minute "OFF" time.... and put it on the UPS that feeds 3 of the 4 3410a's... and I got up this morning to verify it worked.... The 4th 3410a is plugged into the wall, as a 'control' unit... So it reboots 3 of 4 3410a's every day.... Just like Art has had to do....


Jan,

Long ago I had thought of this idea too, but never got around to actually trying it. Seems like I was never able to find one to do as the one you describe. I wish you luck as it would be cheap and easy fix if it works.

Question: You said you put it on your UPS. If you break power to your UPS for 1 minute, won't it just do its job and keep supplying power to the 3410a's during that time?

I agree with your 3 scenarios that describe the condition where tvgos gets 'locked up'. I have seen them all and even a fourth where on power up I have no audio for several seconds and the machine is very sluggish to respond. This is usually followed by the 'green light of death' and eventually the only button that will work is the on/off. Like you I think they all manifestations of the single event that is tvgos has or is in the process of failing.

FWIW, my camp is more like Art's in that these lock ups were so frequent that I had given up trying to use tvgos for scheduling and had adopted manual entry for recordings using the VCR Plus+ method.

Since I've been trying again using the dtvpal I've been disappointed that I'm still seeing the old ugly issues just as before. I had been hopeful that this change of delivery would put an end to that. :(

I will keep trying until some point after this next transition date in June. I can get a clock and eventually a grid from either my cable or antenna input using the pal. I'm still waiting to see any listings.

Note: I did learn in my local thread that those in my GBA with the v8 (read sony HDD) devices are getting valid data and full listings.

The timer plugs into the UPS, and breaks the power to the 3410a's

Sorry. Dumb question. :o

Wonders never cease to amaze. This afternoon I checked it again and found I had listings! Haven't seen that in a long time.

The only thing I did differently today is go into channel editor this morning. I normally never do. I noticed PBS (my host) had no number assigned and was turned off. I assigned it channel 03 (fed from my dtvpal) and exited the menu. Turned off and later found listings.

Jan et al...I've mentioned this before, but I am one of those who, for essentially an entire year (i.e., beginning last May) had to nightly reboot my 3410a if I wanted to get a program download from PBS 9...

Two points on this:

1. beginning at Thanksgiving, when CBS 5 started carrying TVGOS, whenever my unit switched to 5, I found I no longer had to do the reboot...then when - due to more messing around by Microvision - when my unit switched BACK to 9, I had to resume the reboots. This continued until about 2 months ago, after PBS stopped carrying TVGOS. When - after a period when many aeas didn't have TVGOS anymore, and PBS 9 started broadcasting it again, viola! It came back without this problem, as far as I could tell..(However, for over a month now, my unit has stuck to CBS ....but anyway, my point is there is good TVGOS data and bad TVGOS data, sometimes under circumstances when they would probably claim the data was identical...

2. However, the reboot alone was not quite enough...I had to reboot, turn my unit on, go to the TV Guide screen, after which I could exit it and turn the unit off...if I simply rebooted it, I wouldn't get a download that night...

So from this point of view, I hope the problem you are experiencing is NOT exactly what I was...Generally, when I had this problem, I was NOT experiencing any kind of lockup...but SOMETIMES I was...that is, I couldn't get to the TV Guide screen...

Best of luck on your test - Tony

PS Just checked my 3410a again for reception of A and B packets, and I'm still getting them, 2 days after resetting my Pal to reactivate TVGOS data conversion...

janj et al -

based on my recent testing, and failures with the PAL, i decided to make some noise via e-mail at the dish folks about troubles... this may or may not be relavent to all situations, but i know its relavent to mine ( v7 panny dmr-e95 )... test condition = cable service yes, cable box yes... this is the intended PAL setup, but the problems i encountered may indeed apply to ' cable yes, box no, as well...

cable yes, box no has the TVGOS blaster control the PAL with SA channel control commands...

the PAL, in TVGOS mode, has a specific bug that i have uncovered and can repeat... when the TVGOS device ( or even an SA programmed remote ) tells the PAL to go to an ' unoccupied ' channel ( ie, no RF signal ), the PAL tuner goes out of lock... during the out of lock condition, the PAL STOPS responding to SA commands altogether. in some cases, the only recovery is to boot the PAL ( power cycle ). in other cases, it can take the PAL up to 10 minutes to recover on its own... in still other cases, the PAL skews commands from the TVGOS enabled device and mixes them together, netting a PAL channel that doesn't even exist...

the bottom line is that the 2 boxes get out of sync in terms of what the current channel is... eg, panny thinks channel X, and PAL thinks channel Y...

for times when the PAL DOES recover, programming continues normally, albeit flawed, and the panny thinks it's done... but things are not actually correct...

i have 3 PAL boxes; 2 TR40's purchased from dish, and a PAL+ purchased at a local Target store... ALL 3 of these devices exhibit the same exact symptoms....

armed with this info, i contacted dish folks via e-mail... they responded almost immediately, acknowledging the problem and advised that they were working on solving it... they requested tech info on all 3 boxes, eg software revisions and receiver ID ... i'm awaiting further response from them at this time...

so just be aware that you're probably dealing, at least in part, with a broken PAL, and may well be spinning your wheels until dish fixes the things...

best of luck...
rg

sorry . in above post, i said cable yes, box no has panny controlling using SA commands... mistake... cable yes box yes does this... cable yes box no, does not...
the bug is universal though... SA command to ' unoccupied channel ' = PAL tuner out of lock and NO response to SA commands...

rg

This seems to confirm others' observations that the Pal stops functioning after some period of time if left alone, unless it is set up as in the manual for an analog device...if the TVGOS unit is not set up to control the Pal as if it were an SA cable box, the Pal seems to stop its TVGOS conversion after some number of days...

I may have seen this anomaly today.

I was anxious to see if my listings had populated further after my recent success. They had not. I entered diag. menu and observed no packets counting. Left the menu then gave the SA channel command to the dtvpal. Went back to the menu and saw fresh packets counting again. I'm certain I've had no power failures or blinks in days.

The white guide light came on shortly after. I'll check it again later when the light goes out.

Hi guys,

I've been using 2 of my 3 3410A's daily for over 5 weeks successfully. This requires incredible diligence. I set recording preference for the evening after an unplug/replug. My white light is always on on one unit but not the other. It stays on a while, then goes off.

I have 4 of the 3410A's of which 2 are still working. Both are getting only antenna (OTA) signals locally including the local CBS, NBC, FOX and ABC as well as PBS. Hate to think what will happen on the 12th when analoggoes off the air. I have no "PAL or box" at all but for whatever reason I still get programming updates. It failed to say the races were on the FOX affiliate this afternoon and it still listed the standard wekday progrmming. My Toshiba 62HM94 TV has not gotten TVGOS listings or even identified stations for several weeks though. I depend on the 3410 A for program listings and recording. Have not used my 169time computer for C band HD recording for some time though. "Pain in the A double s" to set up a recording.

Good to know you still are going strong Bill. I use my C Band system exclusively to listen to 50's oldies. Sad how the 4DTV technology no longer produces state of the art video like it used to. I haven't received TVGOS since January. I use my Comcast HD DVR's for that.

- My 3410 is set to cable=yes box=no with the only possible (IE - activated) cable channel being 3-0 (which is the signal from the Pal plugged into the cable RF port on 3410).
- The channel list for the ANT RF port of the 3410 only allows Digital channels.
- The Pal is put into TVGOS mode BUT no SA channel selection made.

RESULT = GUIDE light always on. Retains correct channel list. All recording must be manually programmed. Manual clock set. NO LISTINGS - ever.

RE: SA channel mode - I haven't done this step but I know my Pal IS in TVGOS mode. I don't recall any instruction in the Pal manual on this ???? ANYHOW is this a must to receive (ACTIVATE) converted TVGOS from the Pal? And if so what channel number do I key in to get 11-1 OTA (Physical 9)

My CBS channel is 2.1 (Los Angeles). I found that when I set the DTVPal to this channel before booting into TVGOS mode, it was still on that channel when it booted back up. But the G-test failed. When I finally got a remote programmed for the famous Scientific Atlanta cable box, and entered "121" for channel 2.1, things blinked, channel 3 on the LG still showed CBS 2.1, but now the G-test showed some packets. So, yes, you gotta do the SA IR thing. I think 11.1 would be "211" (drop the decimal, add 100).

On another issue. Some report DTVPal stops sending TVGOS data. Well, it's expecting the IR blaster to send it the host channel number everytime the TVGOS enabled device is turned off, so I wonder if it would help to get one? It would uselessly change channels on the DTVPal when you change channels on the LG, but it shouldn't matter as long as the LG puts it back on the host channel when you turn the LG off.

Signed,

Long time reader, brand new member :D

My CBS channel is 2.1 (Los Angeles). I found that when I set the DTVPal to this channel before booting into TVGOS mode, it was still on that channel when it booted back up. But the G-test failed. When I finally got a remote programmed for the famous Scientific Atlanta cable box, and entered "121" for channel 2.1, things blinked, channel 3 on the LG still showed CBS 2.1, but now the G-test showed some packets. So, yes, you gotta do the SA IR thing. I think 11.1 would be "211" (drop the decimal, add 100).

On another issue. Some report DTVPal stops sending TVGOS data. Well, it's expecting the IR blaster to send it the host channel number everytime the TVGOS enabled device is turned off, so I wonder if it would help to get one? It would uselessly change channels on the DTVPal when you change channels on the LG, but it shouldn't matter as long as the LG puts it back on the host channel when you turn the LG off.

Signed,

Long time reader, brand new member :D

i believe that rob55c is correct, although i can't yet prove it... the PAL has to do work in order to do its tv guide thing, and while i would think this a bug, it's not unreasonable to think that the PAL does NOT just do things continuously forever, but needs to be kickstarted to do its thing through the receipt of an SA channel command to go to the hosted channel... to extrapolate, this would logically tell the PAL that the legacy device is cranked up and ready to receive whatever blind TVGOS data the PAL has to offer...

since the whole process is 1-way, and not a function of ' back and forth ' conversation between the 2 boxes, it would make sense that the PAL occasionally needs to know that its target recipient is ready to ' receive ' ...

just my opinion without any real evidentiary support...

all the best...

rg

It happened again today. I turned it on and found I have listings for days 1, 2, 5, & 6. None or partial for days 3, 4, & 7. Next I went to diag. menu and saw no packets counting again (same as yesterday). It's been approx. 30 hours since I last gave the SA command to the dtvpal.

I don't know if its the pal or the 3410a that gets lost. The 3410a is the only device I have to verify tvgos packets.

I gave the SA command and went back to see that I was getting fresh packets. I then had a lockup issue when I exited from the guide. :mad:

I'm sorry to report that a 1 minute off is too long, and all 3410a's lose their host channel memory's.... I've changed timer to manual, and I try shorter power cycles... When host is lost: Host= 0x0 Clock can display nearly anything....

The crazy thing is.... I've been getting data, accurate data quickly... and by verifying with a scope, I KNOW TVG in VBI IS THERE on the DTVPal....
It's just that it is corrupting the TVG of the 3410a.

I don't think the problem is DTVPal losing VBI.... I'm testing two DTVPal's right now.... one with Gooney Unit Zip, one with real Zip...
Gooney Pal has been working for over a week (since I put it on UPS)... and was working pre-UPS for a few weeks before that.
Real Zip Pal has been working for over 5 days now....
Seeing TVG in VBI on both..... on a waveform monitor (Scope). So the problem is the way the TVG Data is seen by LG.... Since it never or nearly never did this before..... and now is doing it within 2-3 days on MULTIPLE units....

I have told Macrovision multiple times that CBS off cable, and DTVPal are acting identically, and OTA from ABC doesn't get corrupted anywhere as fast or often as CBS does... But they either don't want to hear it, or don't (can't?) help....

Going back to ABC signal would be a short term solution... I'm attempting to find a long term solution....

It's a shame that someone at Macrovision doesn't have a 3410a...............

GRRRR!

still checking packets from my test DTVPal, and my 3410a is still seeing them 4 days after resetting the Pal...

Chicagoland at least.....

For those of you with scopes, check Line 14 Field 1 of DTVPal TVG... It is corrupted...

Seen on MULTIPLE DTVPal's.

CBS 2-0 and WLS 7-0 are Not Corrupt.

Sent the 3 folks at Macrovision email indicating that....

For those of you with scopes, check Line 14 Field 1 of DTVPal TVG... It is corrupted...

CBS 2-0 and WLS 7-0 are Not Corrupt.

Sent the 3 folks at Macrovision email indicating that....
Well, I'm curious to hear what nonsense they give you in response - Tony

In my test setup, my 3410a still sees A and B packets coming from my DTVPal (which I reset FIVE days ago, and have not disturbed since then), as well as from CBS 5 and PBS 9. Amusingly, the 3410a now reports the host channel as 0x3...it did this briefly a week or two ago (i.e., it had changed back to CBS 5 the next time I checked, which was probably the evening of the same day)...I'll see what it says tomorrow...:)

Aparantly the publish-able email address for TVG tech support is now:

CE_Customer_Support@macrovision.com

You know what to do................

We had a power outage due to storms yesterday. I finally noticed today the 3410 is completely dark. I unplug/plug it back in and, sadly, it remains unresponsive. No, it wasn't on a surge protector - but everything else in the house seems fine. I wasn't home at the time, so I don't know the exact circumstances.

Is there anything thing left to try to bring it back - or is it safe to assume it is done?

tasbro:
Unplug the 3410A and remove the cover. Near where the power cord plugs into the power supply board is a fuse in a clip. See if it's blown. You can probably tell by looking or you can use an ohmmeter if you have one. It's 1.6A/250V. If it's blown you can try replacing it, but don't buy just one. Also near the power cord connector is a varistor marked V101 (probably blue). It's across the power line after the fuse. Its job is to short very quickly if the voltage gets too high, blowing the fuse and (one hopes) protecting the rest of the circuitry. It could have been degraded by an overvoltage and may still be shorted, which would blow the replacement fuse.

If you have an ohmmeter you should check for shorts across the line after the fuse before you replace the fuse. If not you'll just have to try a new fuse and hope for the best. In addition to V101 there are several capacitors (C101, C102, C103, C110) and a diode bridge (BD101) that could blow the fuse if shorted.

Try this before diving into it...

Unplug it from power... Wait 2-3 hours... I've seen two units exactly like this....
Power off for a few hours fixes it....

My LGTV and Pal are still working, with all local channels and sub-channels showing up on the guide.

I too saw the slow response to SA cmds and thought I was not entering valid codes. The slow response explains what I saw. I will experiment with "power loss" this weekend.

My TVGOS has now downloaded a 'new' code version, with data as follows:

8.1.41 / 8.6.44
Host St = 0x82
Host ID = 0x41
Host Ch = 0:0-3
VBI Ch = 0:0-42

No ATSC slicing shown on that status screen.

This is Austin, Tx with Pal tuned to Ch 42-1, output Analog ch 3.
Over the air only, TV is LG 50PX4DR.
I got my DTV Pal+ and it's hooked up. I think I have the wrong splitters (Radio Shack ant/sat 16-2567 diplexer 40-2150 Mhz) though because I cannot get the Pal to work hooked up this way. I had to run the antenna directly through the Pal but to pick up my HD channels on the LG HDTV, I have to power the Pal off.

My question is how exactly do you put the Pal into TVGOS mode? It is interesting that you didn't get the G-link for your LG TV. My TVs did not come with a G-link device. I double checked the boxes I saved.

Anyway, I have the signal coming through strong. Our digital host channel for Columbia, S.C. is supposed to be SCETV. |Not sure if it's transmitting the TVGOS yet.

Any more input will be appreciated.

Frances
Sandy Run, S.C.

Update on my Line 14 Field 1 TVG Corruption on DTVPal...
On one unit.... I re-sent SA 121 commands (CBS DT is 2-1 in Chicagoland)...
That Fixed it!

OK.... I didn't do it on my main DTVPal.... the one feeding LG3410a's.... I'm leaving that alone.... I hear TVG has 8 EIGHT different versions sent on 4 different lines....
I want to see if I still get TVG data.... It could be for a different version TVG...

Again.... Resending SA codes fixed it

My question is how exactly do you put the Pal into TVGOS mode? It is interesting that you didn't get the G-link for your LG TV. My TVs did not come with a G-link device. I double checked the boxes I saved.
.
cf. my link below for how to ACTIVATE the TVGOS mode after you go through the setup screens on the Pal (as per the manual)...(but don't make any changes to your TV setup)..remember you can choose channel 3 or 4 Pal output BEFORE you put the Pal into TVGOS mode

Once you have the Pal in the right mode, you should see analog packets during a download period (e.g., 1:45 to 4:45 PM in my area) either via the G*test for your TV or by looking at its diagnostic menus...

Re packets from my test Pal: yesterday afternoon I checked (after six days from reset), and I was still getting packets from the DTVPal.

TODAY I just checked, and I was NOT seeing packets. But, after resetting my Pal, I am STILL not seeing packets from the Pal.

I should add that, when I first turned on my 3410a this afternoon, it came up with the AV1 etc message, and would not go to the TV Guide screen. As usual, after rebooting the unit, it WOULD go to the screen. Furthermore, I had received no day 8 program listings. I doubt that has anything to do with the lack of packets from the Pal, but thought I would mention it.

On another topic, yesterday I sent an email message to Microvision, outlining the problem that I had had with my 3410a, beginning in May of last year - i.e., that I had to reboot my unit (then turn it on and go to the TV Guide, then exit and turn the unit off) every night if I wanted to receive an overnight download from my host channel at that time, PBS 9 - and this problem continued until Thanksgiving, when my unit switched to CBS 5 as host, which did not give me that very tiresome and irritating problem, AND whenever it switched back to PBS 9, the problem reappeared. I used this as an example where Microvision would probably have said, oh, nobody else is having any problem with the TVGOS data from 9 so it must be your unit, but - as demonstrated with what happened when my unit started switching to 5 and back and forth to and from 9 - it is clear that PBS 9 had some defect in the data. (After the PBS TVGOS shutdown, when PBS 9 started sending the data again, the problem was gone...so they apparently fixed the problem, perhaps even without even knowing it had been there...)

So I think there is a good chance that MV has something screwed up in the Chicago market, but they just don't want to own up to it...and even if it is a problem with the PAL and MV doesn't want to help with it, they are really worthless...

(for what it's worth... Tony)

Try this before diving into it...

Unplug it from power... Wait 2-3 hours... I've seen two units exactly like this....
Power off for a few hours fixes it....

Thanks, Jan. Unfortunately, you were right - after leaving it unplugged for a bit it came right back.

The unfortunate part is I had the wife just about talked into to getting a Tivo HD. Now I have to figure out a new plan...

Woke up to 4 DVR's doing the exact same thing.......

Sent the following to: CE_Customer_Support@macrovision.com

You are obviously changing things....
Today I wake up and find all FOUR LG 3410a DVR's doing the same thing, but it's something that I've not seen before.....

No Listings today....
But.... They each have full listings TOMORROW
But the next day.... No Listings
And the next.... Full Listings....

Please Fix

Woke up to 4 DVR's doing the exact same thing.......
No Listings today....
But.... They each have full listings TOMORROW
But the next day.... No Listings
And the next.... Full Listings....

That IS weird...maybe they were trying to imitate the v8 pattern of getting days 1,2,5,and 8, but missed the first and the last...:)

Today all 4 showed "Invalid A/V/Recording" and TVG is locked up....
Only recourse is power cycling units....

Once power cycled, all 4 immediately started gettting TVG Data, as verified by G* Test.

Sent another email....

SUGGESTION.... Maybe they'll believe us if we each keep sending emails with out issues.

See email for Macrovision a few posts above this....

I'm going back to re-visit a prior test.... The Programmable lamp timer.... That failed with a 1 minute off time.
(1 minute off time made the 3410a lose it's host channel repeatedly on the 3 units I tested with the lamp timer).

I've perused 4-5 companies that make Timer Kits... and sent them this email:

Looking for a product...
I need to interrupt AC power for a period of 2-5 seconds every 24 hours... (It's a work-around for a firmware bug in a product.)
Basically I'm looking for a 200W "Lamp timer" but one with programmable OFF time in Seconds, not minutes..... 2-5 seconds off time, 23:59:55-58 "ON" Time....
If you have such an Item, I'd be interested in it's price and availablility.... Or, if you can suggest somewhere where I could get one, I'd appreciate that, too!

While I'm awaiting answers to these emails.... If anyone finds a programmable lamp timer with "OFF" time in Seconds, rather than minutes... Please point me to it..

And I'm also going to start this test on the 'experimental' DVR:
Every Day, when I get up, I'll Un-plug the 3410a for ~2 seconds, and plug it back in.
and we'll see how that works...

I'm still getting data off the DTVPal Host quite reliably.... Only problem is, it's locking up the 3410a every 2-3 days.

Fortunately, I am not having any programming problems, jusd dead problems. Two fo my 4 units are out of comission. Dead, that is no lights or anything. Not a fuse but I have not tried power supplys as I have no schematic. Are they worth fixing? Is there anything out there comperable yet? I would like a "new, trouble free unit" but so far have not seen anything that could record HD off its own tuner. Some are now digital but not hd. Anyone know of any new products that are worth while???
I am sort of stuck with ota.
Bill Shenefelt

Bill... You have PM

Bill You have more PM... Never mind, it was staring me in the face :)!

Jan J:
As long as you're knee-deep in testing, do you have access to an NTSC video proc amp that allows blanking of individual lines of the vertical interval? It's possible that the 3410A is getting confused by all of the different versions of TVGOS being presented to it, and limiting it to the correct line might help.

I suspect this because I have two analog stations with TVGOS on them: PBS and CBS. The PBS station has data on lines 13-16 while the CBS station has it just on line 16 (both fields in both cases). My LG will settle on the PBS station if I let it but I've never gotten listings there. I've had good listings ever since I locked it to the CBS station.

This isn't a practical solution for most people since they can't come up with such a proc amp and it would be an energy hog if they did (but I'll bet a lot of stations will have some sitting idle as they move closer to an all-digital operation). At least the test might reveal which line of which field is used for the version the LG wants.

Good point, but one I hope I never have to deal with....
I asked in an email which version TVG was on which line and field.... and never got an answer....
I hear there are 8 different TVG versions, so it is possible that 4 lines x 2 fields could support 8 different versions .....
And this is kind of verified when I posted that line 14 Field one was corrupt.... on one line, one field...

I do have a framesync that I could delete one or more lines..... but that would a REAL energy HOG! :)!
Problem is.... Which Line, on which field, is which version?

Seeing that they don't like my asking.... How about someone else ask Macrovision, and post here?

...
Looking for a product...
I need to interrupt AC power for a period of 2-5 seconds every 24 hours... (It's a work-around for a firmware bug in a product.)
Basically I'm looking for a 200W "Lamp timer" but one with programmable OFF time in Seconds, not minutes..... 2-5 seconds off time, 23:59:55-58 "ON" Time....


You might look into X10 switches. They can be computer controlled, so they might have resolution in seconds. Unfortunately, it would mean having a computer running to do the controlling.

You might look into X10 switches. They can be computer controlled, so they might have resolution in seconds. Unfortunately, it would mean having a computer running to do the controlling.I tried this with my standalone X10 controller (schedule programmed by computer, but then runs without computer and is battery backed) using some trickery - i.e. setting 2 off events followed by an on event at the same time. Each transmission seems to take a second and it can't send more than one out at once, thus the delay. It's an old controller (CP290). Dunno if a current generation stand-alone timer or stand-alone controller would accept this trick.

I have a sneaking suspicion that my 3410a hard drive has some bad sectors (I just recently had it about as full as I've ever had it, and I was getting some terrible macro-blocking and "smearing" on a couple of shows), so I thought I would perform the "HD format" function. Problem is, it only took about 2 seconds, so I'm pretty sure all it does is the equivalent of "del *.*" on the file list and not a real format. Do you have to remove the HD from the unit and attach to a PC to do a low level (or even normal) format to skip bad sectors? Problem is, what happens when you put a FAT32 formatted drive back into this machine (which is a different OS)? On the one hand I don't know when I'll ever fill it up enough again to hit the "bad" spots, but on the other hand I don't want to lose any programming someday because it gets worse.

I have a sneaking suspicion that my 3410a hard drive has some bad sectors (I just recently had it about as full as I've ever had it, and I was getting some terrible macro-blocking and "smearing" on a couple of shows), so I thought I would perform the "HD format" function.

You need to go back 5,000 or so posts and re-read the 180 posts on this subject. Just kidding...:rolleyes: First, these machines get temperamental when their drives are reaching maximum capacity, so don't do that. Second, you can take the drive out and reformat it on your computer and put it back in with no problem, at least with Windows XP.

Information:
Guy from work loaned a DTVPal Plus unit... No difference in TVG setup.

Here in the Bay area, apparently, CBS 5.1 stopped broadcasting digital TVGOS over the weekend. Apparently that accounts for the fact that I stopped seeing packets from the DTVPal in my 3410a on Saturday...but, as noted on that day, the Pal had continued to convert data for the 6 days ending on last Friday, at which time I was still seeing packets. (And, by the way, CBS 5 DID continue to send analog TVGOS on the weekend..., though I had NOT gotten a download Thursday night, which I attributed to whatever gave me the AV1 error and locked up the TV Guide...but, as I indicated, I DID see Pal packets on Friday afternoon.)

I did not check yesterday, but this afternoon I found that packets are coming from the Pal...

On another issue, I got no response from Nick at MV to my email last week concerning the year-long problem I had had with my 3410a due to apparently defective data from PBS 9, in contrast to good data I started getting from CBS 5 beginning - intermittently - just after Thanksgiving. I sent this to him to make the point that sometimes they broadcast data that was superficially ok, but that had some defect that caused some people - but not others - serious problems. no answer, so I guess he (or THEY) didn't want to hear that...

They need more data like this....

JanJ: DITTO!!!!!!!

avnstf, What email address are you using to contact Nick at MV?? My last several emails to Nick and the other techs at ce_customer_support@macrovision.com keep getting bounced back as undeliverable!!

Here in GBA46 (West Palm Beach, FL) MV claims that the SCTE127 data is being transmitted properly but either Comcast or CBS are still droppng the ball!
Still attempting to find out who??????

Thanks to all of you who are so persistent with MV techs in getting our analog-dependent devices back up and running.
Robin

Anyone interested in a used 3410a in perfect working condition? I'm getting rid of mine, and will put it on eBay if no interest here.

jcg

Jan,
I have a question about your 3410's. When they lock up and you have to power cycle are you losing the lineup info and your channel assignments, or just the guide info?
I don't have a PAL yet but my 3410 has been doing more or less the same thing in that it requires a power cycle every couple of days. Most of the time when that happens I lose any custom channel assignment (for instance if the cable channel for CBS HD is 702, and I have reassigned it to the correct QAM channel (80-63) in the 3410. After the power cycle it is back to 702 and I have to redo it and all the other channels again. The guide info is still not coming in but the channel list remains.)

I have held off getting a PAL because of these issues, and the fact that I have two Vista MCE pcs with QAM tuners, that do an excellent job, but are not as simple to use.

I still would like to get my 3410 working, as I have all digital TVs (except one) with QAM tuners, but comcast has turned off the analog feeds for most common channels and it takes a list next to each TV to figure out what channel to tune to. The 3410 does a great job of correcting that and it would make my wife VERY happy to just select a channel and watch it.

Jan,
I have a question about your 3410's. When they lock up and you have to power cycle are you losing the lineup info and your channel assignments, or just the guide info?

Jan Answers: I just lose TVG channel data, not channel listings, Or, Channel Re-Directions (Where an OTA channel Icon that has cable channel, gets re-directed to a true OTA channel number.... For Example: ABC-HD on Cable is 189, I re-direct that Icon to Channel 7-1.... All those remain....

Scottxray: I have held off getting a PAL because of these issues, and the fact that I have two Vista MCE pcs with QAM tuners, that do an excellent job, but are not as simple to use.

Jan Answers: I've found the DTVPal incredibly easy to work with 3410a... I don't bother with a reset, I just park it on the 'new' TVG (DTVPal) channel Channel 03 in my case.... and "Lock it", with TVG/Messages/963214785 and it locks to Channel 03 as a host!!!
IF ONLY IF, Macrovision would fix the (What I believe is a) memory overrun issue.... This would be a winner. I believe the TVG data -- when it finishes filling up the 1 week data, overruns the memory locations, and corrupts the TVG OS ram... Since TVG is then locked up (TVG runs 24/7/365, even when powered off)... You need to reboot it in order to restart the TVG program.
I have not had any problems locking to ABC in Chicago 7-0 for years..... There are two others at ABC that I know of with 3410a's.
One using OTA only, no cable, and receives TVG off ABC 7-0, and he's NEVER had issues since the fix a few years ago.
The other fellow has not used it recently, and he has 2 of them..... One 3410a, and one of the Older model, made by Zenith, that was the predicessor.
When he DID have it connected, it worked fine...

SO--- It CONTINUES to work off OTA from ABC! and will till next Friday.... Noon, when it gets turned off.

As luck would have it, I INSTALLED the TVG inserter in the program feed at ABC many years ago!
So I've always had a "Vested Interest" in getting it to work!!!
I can tell you thought that I had nearly NO info as to what was going on.... When they'd call me, I'd connect a program feed into a Monitor input, and they'd dial into the inserter, and then tell me later if it worked or not...
About 3-4 years ago, they called me saying there was a problem.... We went round and round, and they eventually determined there was an error in their software, and that stabilized TVG (for me), which is good because I found an error in the way the data was being inserted in Field 2... Once both were fixed, I had literally no problems until I tried the new feeds. (CBS & DTVPal)

I've found a 1-2 second un-plug once a day (I believe when TVG light is off--I'm not certain if that is important....) Resets TVG without dropping the host channel.

The 1 minute off lamp timer I tried had power off long enough that the TVG forgot the Host channel.... That wasn't helpful... Does look like 1-2 seconds works though...

.

Jan

Hard to believe after the foofaraw* of the last year that only one more week of waiting for the grand (or not so grand) event...

My DTVPal is still giving out vbi packets, after resetting it (perhaps unnecessarily) last weekend, when it turned out that CBS 5.1 wasn't broadcasting TVGOS, so I may have reset it unnecessarily...

So I think I'll just let my 3410a see if it finds the channel 3 output on its own, when channels 5 and 9 disappear (along with their TVGOS data)...if it doesn't within 3 or 4 days, I'll just try to force the issue...then I'll be curious to see, first, whether I get program listings, and, THEN, whether the problems Jan is encountering occur here, too.

(I'll also be very curious to see whether my Sony 250 works without any analog TVGOS around.)

Tony

*which I found I didn't know how to spell

With the known success of a 1-2 second power cycle.... I'm trying a couple other things.
On 3 units, in TVG, Turned "OFF" all analog channels, including 3 that I know are transmitting TVG.
Since I remember info that the TVG channel must be enabled to work, I'm hoping if I DISABLE the TVG channels I don't want, maybe that will help...
I did NOT turn off the CBS logo I've re-directed to Channel 3, the DTVPal channel.
Channel 3 was moved to top of TVG listings, and the removed analog channels were moved to the bottom of the list.

On one unit, I did all the above, but also went into channel edit, and removed the Analog channels, including the three TVG channels, from the channel edit list...... As if they were never there.....

And at this point, I'm ceasing to power cycle the units.... Let's see how this works...

Oh yes, in Chicagoland, two DT Channels, ABC and CBS are moving! ABC to Channel 7 and CBS I think (Correct me John if I'm wrong) to channel 12.

I'll try adding the new DTV Channels in Channel Edit on 3410a's, but on DTVPal, I'll assume I'll have to exit out of TVG mode, Rescan, and then Re-enter TVG mode and issue SA commands... (And at this point, I'm not sure if the SA commands will change from 121??)
Are we having Fun yet???

Addendum to Post at ~4PM: I've noticed that ALL 4 units are reporting TVG data (Light on control panel) More frequently since the other analog channels have been "Turned off"...

Hello 3410A users. A difference of opinion between myself and Rammitinski regarding the 3410A has developed on another thread. Here's the background:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16595402#post16595402

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16595484#post16595484

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16596090#post16596090

The core issue:

Without TVGOS data available 3410A has only manual start/stop recording (pop-up duration timer) functionality.

The 3410A does have easy manual clock setting when TVGOS isn't functional and 'factory reset' hassle-full manual clock setting when suffering its TVGOS blocking 'Reserved' glitch. The following posts cover 3410A's manual timer functionality:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...64#post6331364
After over a year of ownership, I just learned that...with no guide data, the screen states "No data available for this screen" and the Host Channel displays as 0 x 0. In this configuration, the VCR+ screen is useless as the scheduled recordings will not occur. Also, time settings will not hold, and 12:00 AM will be displayed, or may alternate with the correct time. Manual recordings will work, however, and the "popup timer" works as well.

If "No Listings" is displayed on the guide screen, timer recordings via the VCR+ screen will occur as entered, and the Host Channel will display properly.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...21#post6451321
...if the TV Guide screen displays "No data available for this screen," and the Host Channel shows 0 x 0 in the diagnostic menu, scheduled recordings will probably not occur and time settings entered manually will not hold. If "No Listings" is displayed, everything works fine...

BTW, the pop-up duration timer always seems to work properly, but of course you have to start it up manually when the program begins.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16597248#post16597248

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16597876#post16597876
____________________________________________________________ _____

So do I 'get it', have it all wrong, or maybe there's a path through the middle. Can someone clarify or enlighten?

fallingwater: "So do I 'get it', have it all wrong, or maybe there's a path through the middle. Can someone clarify or enlighten?"

I had difficulty following all of your post, but my own opinion is that - without any TV Guide - you can set the clock and set manual (timer) recordings, though I'm not absolutely sure I've done this (but I thought I had)

I can't post because I've always had multiple TVG hosts available...
BUT I can remember posts from others who had no TVG data or host that have commented that clock and VCR+ continued to work....

Hey!! Stick around! In a couple of weeks, we'll know for certain! :)!




On a subject of a different matter... Would someone please contact Macrovision and ask them which Line and Field of the DTVPal VBI is in fact V7? I'd like to know:)!

On a subject of a different matter... Would someone please contact Macrovision and ask them which Line and Field of the DTVPal VBI is in fact V7? I'd like to know:)!
I'm not sure MV is answering anybody any more...

I'm also not sure that the various version of TVGOS, i.e., 7, 8, plus lower numbers are separate...I made one try, for example, to keep track of the number of B packets seen by my Sony, as compared with the number of B packets seen by my 3410a...is they are the same, the odds are that they are literally identical packets and, if so, when a station is broadcasting BOTH (here I'm talking about analog) it is likely that they are LITERALLY - not just identical - but actually the SAME packets...why broadcast the same data twice. On the other hand, if the numbers are DIFFERENT, then I won't have demonstrated anything, because it could be that the packets are in the same stream, but the two units don't select the same B packets, because they have different lineups, or whatever...

I hope I get the energy to try this again before analog goes away...I guess I'd better do it soon!

I just thought it kind of odd that they would design the LG to work with manual timers and then turn around and still keep it dependent to some degree on a TVGOS (or time) signal to be able to do so (the Sony's are different in that they don't allow manual clock setting - plus, they have the v8 guide).

My two v7 HDD/DVD recorders have never missed a recording when using them with a satellite tuner and no antenna attached before (meaning no TVGOS signal whatsoever). Could be the LG really is designed more like the Sony, though. Maybe the TVGOS recorders with digital tuners were actually designed differently from the analog tunered-only ones.

I, also, thought I recalled a few people here stating that they were "going to continue using the LG like an expensive VCR", or were already doing so in the complete absence of any TVGOS signal, so I always assumed that it worked that way with no problems, and that they were completely sure of that themselves.

I mean, here I was, occasionally recommending this unit on this forum to people who were looking for an HD DVR with clear-QAM/ATSC/NTSC, and didn't mind setting timers with it like a VCR after the cutoff (in lieu of the DTV Pal ever working with it appropriately and dependably for everyone). I sure hope that if anybody took me up on that, they won't have any problems with it.

.
I need a couple of questions confirmed from what I've searched thru this thread....

1. You need to have some TV guide come thru to set the clock? Even to do a manaul correction? This could be a problem for me since I would have to rely on my digital cable [RCN-NY] due to bad reception in my 'hood and unsure if I could get it thru my cable provider...
And is there TVgos over OTA digital channels?

2. Maunual recordings: only possible thru the TVguide interface or can you choose your own day/time etc...

3.Can you watch something that was recorded while the unit records another channel? This is a biggie for me ... what happens when you are watching something does it just stop watching/recording does it give you a choice what to do.

Other than the TivoHD I can't think of any other DVR that can record HD, other than giving more money to the cable co. of course :(

.
I need a couple of questions confirmed from what I've searched thru this thread....

1. You need to have some TV guide come thru to set the clock? Even to do a manaul correction? This could be a problem for me since I would have to rely on my digital cable [RCN-NY] due to bad reception in my 'hood and unsure if I could get it thru my cable provider...
And is there TVgos over OTA digital channels?

2. Maunual recordings: only possible thru the TVguide interface or can you choose your own day/time etc...

3.Can you watch something that was recorded while the unit records another channel? This is a biggie for me ... what happens when you are watching something does it just stop watching/recording does it give you a choice what to do.

Other than the TivoHD I can't think of any other DVR that can record HD, other than giving more money to the cable co. of course :(

3) You absolutely can NOT.

2) You can program date, channel, start, and stop times on the VCR+ screen. It definitely works even when TVGOS is nothing but "no listing." It is not clear that it works in absence of auto clock set or TVGOS channel lineup. I guess we'll know next week.

1) This is what we are not sure of. There is a digital TVGOS, but the 3410 is not compatible with it. A lot of effort has been spent in the thread trying to get a DVR Pal to work; I don't think anyone has been successful.

I'm hopimg the manual VCR+ scheduling will continue to work, even with manual clock setting, but I don't know for sure.

If it doesn't work next week, mine will be "sailin' on the 'Bay" because I'm OTA only. If it does work, I might be looking for another for backup.

All, and Jan in particular.

I did the cap mod to my 3410 last year due to many lock ups of my DVR and loss of guide info. Since CBS in Portland is now transmitting guide data again I decided to try again and I purchased a DTV pal+ at Kmart Friday, and just ordered a CH4 inserter since trying to feed the pal output into the AV1 input has been unsuccessful ( once the guide is setup if I try to change back to cable yes, box no it switches to the cable input again and I lose the host channel). So far I have been unsuccessful at even getting a lineup, which I was getting before, although no program info). I am trying one more time now.

However, I have had the unit in storage for most of the last year and it appears that it has developed a hum in the video output. It is not prominent but it is enough to be annoying. Any suggestions on wher to look? I have been trying to search on the links to the LG schematic pages and service manuals that were posted here a while back, but I can't seem to find them ( I lost my Hard drive and those files with it.). In addition the unit is still locking up when I change the programming for the guide setup ( A LOT), and it could be there is another cap or power supply issue that is croppping up.
Can someone repost the links or make another suggestion?

Edit. Never mind the service manual link. I finally thought to search on "Service manual" and got it.!
Looks like the video output is using 5v and 9v supplies. I will scope the outputs and supply voltages for the hum. Could also be the 5 or 9v regulators.

3) You absolutely can NOT.

2) You can program date, channel, start, and stop times on the VCR+ screen. It definitely works even when TVGOS is nothing but "no listing." It is not clear that it works in absence of auto clock set or TVGOS channel lineup. I guess we'll know next week.

1) This is what we are not sure of. There is a digital TVGOS, but the 3410 is not compatible with it. A lot of effort has been spent in the thread trying to get a DVR Pal to work; I don't think anyone has been successful.

I'm hopimg the manual VCR+ scheduling will continue to work, even with manual clock setting, but I don't know for sure.

If it doesn't work next week, mine will be "sailin' on the 'Bay" because I'm OTA only. If it does work, I might be looking for another for backup.
Thanks for the reply John, I'd like to return full HD to my older 32"CRT "HDTVready" set in bedroom, the prices are to high on eBay especially if it lacks a simple DVR watch&record function like #3 ... I'll have to save my money & stick to CECB with timers [zat790a] for recording overflow to an old DVDrecorder, image is not too bad as long as the signal is good.

I'd like to return full HD to my older 32"CRT "HDTVready" set in bedroom, the prices are to high on eBay especially if it lacks a simple DVR watch&record function like #3. It's too bad the TV didn't have a digital tuner built-in, because then you could at least watch one thing and record another by splitting the signal.

Of course, if you were really intent on doing that, you could always just add a reasonably inexpensive (for an HD) tuner like the Centronics or Coby DTV-140 (available at Amazon), and use that for a 2nd HD tuner.

This: www.epvision.com/, has QAM, ATSC and NTSC, but is quite a bit more expensive.

I'd say check here after June 12 - you might get lucky and find someone selling their LG cheap (and hopefully the manual timing thing won't be an issue).

I, also, thought I recalled a few people here stating that they were "going to continue using the LG like an expensive VCR", or were already doing so in the complete absence of any TVGOS signal, so I always assumed that it worked that way with no problems, and that they were completely sure of that themselves.

I certainly planned on using mine that way. So I actually took a look at the manual and found this:

Page 32
Use the Clock Menu to set the clock in the HD DVR to the current time.
1 Press MENU to display the on-screen menu.
2 Select the OPTION menu using 3 / 4 then press (SELECT) or 2.
3 Use 3 / 4 to select the Clock option then press 2 or (SELECT) to move to the third level.
4 Use 3 / 4 to set Year, then press 2 to move to the next option.
5 Set the Date and Time using 3, 4, and 2 buttons then press (SELECT) to confirm your setting.
6 Press MENU or 1 to return to the previous menu or press EXIT on the remote control to return to TV viewing.
Note: You cannot change the clock time after it was set by TV Guide On Screen™ System.

Page 59
VCR Plus+ Recording
Schedule programs to be Watched or Recorded using the Schedule menu.
Notes
• You must first set up the TV Guide On Screen System before you can
schedule programs to be watched or recorded, see TV Guide On Screen
System Setup and Overview page.
• After setup: The HD DVR must be turned Off to receive TV Guide On
Screen System’s information updates. Your Cable Box (if you have one)
should be left On.
1 Press VCR Plus+.
A Record using date and time.
B Record programs using PlusCode program numbers. (With a program
highlighted on the Listings, pressing INFO shows the program’s
PlusCode programming number, if provided.)
2 Press TV GUIDE to return to TV viewing.
Notes
• If the TV Guide On Screen System is set to cable service (yes) and cable
box (yes), and you connected the cable box with G-LINK and AV1 connection,
you need to keep the cable box is turned on to receive program listings
data.
• VCR Plus+ recording is capable only for Antenna and Cable input source
and when the Cable Box is connected to A/V IN 1 jack on the HD DVR.

After reading this (a few times), it appears you can only set the time manually if the clock has not already been set by TVGOS. I have done this myself a few times after unplugging the 3410 and the time holds until reset by TVGOS. Then later on in the manual, the recording instructions indicate you can set the channel, start and stop times manually or enter VCR plus numbers, but only after the guide has been setup. So I take this to mean that as long as you complete the initial guide setup procedure (even if there is no guide data), everything can then be set manually. Wouldn't they need to have this functionality for areas without TVGOS?

Thanks for the reply John, I'd like to return full HD to my older 32"CRT "HDTVready" set in bedroom, the prices are to high on eBay especially if it lacks a simple DVR watch&record function like #3 ... I'll have to save my money & stick to CECB with timers [zat790a] for recording overflow to an old DVDrecorder, image is not too bad as long as the signal is good.
I know it has had problems, but they seem to be diminishing as the firmware is improved, so have you considered the DTVPal DVR? 250 bucks, dual tuner high-def, watch recording while it records 2 more...based on the problems it had when it first came out in December, I wouldn't consider it, but it has definitely been improving.

All, and Jan in particular.

I did the cap mod to my 3410 last year due to many lock ups of my DVR and loss of guide info. Since CBS in Portland is now transmitting guide data again I decided to try again and I purchased a DTV pal+ at Kmart Friday, and just ordered a CH4 inserter since trying to feed the pal output into the AV1 input has been unsuccessful ( once the guide is setup if I try to change back to cable yes, box no it switches to the cable input again and I lose the host channel). So far I have been unsuccessful at even getting a lineup, which I was getting before, although no program info). I am trying one more time now.

However, I have had the unit in storage for most of the last year and it appears that it has developed a hum in the video output. It is not prominent but it is enough to be annoying. Any suggestions on wher to look? I have been trying to search on the links to the LG schematic pages and service manuals that were posted here a while back, but I can't seem to find them ( I lost my Hard drive and those files with it.). In addition the unit is still locking up when I change the programming for the guide setup ( A LOT), and it could be there is another cap or power supply issue that is croppping up.
Can someone repost the links or make another suggestion?

Edit. Never mind the service manual link. I finally thought to search on "Service manual" and got it.!
Looks like the video output is using 5v and 9v supplies. I will scope the outputs and supply voltages for the hum. Could also be the 5 or 9v regulators.

The power supply is switchmode, not Analog supply, so 'hum' should be HF noise, not conventional 60 or 120 cps 'hum'..
When you re-capped supply, did you find any that were leaking?
The 9V supply is regulated from the +12V supply... If it is truely that, your +12v supply should be worse than the +9V.
All video outputs have hum?
other devices output to same display don't have hum?
Is there hum in audio? Audio off +8V which is fed from +9V, which is fed from +12V

I know it has had problems, but they seem to be diminishing as the firmware is improved, so have you considered the DTVPal DVR? 250 bucks, dual tuner high-def, watch recording while it records 2 more...based on the problems it had when it first came out in December, I wouldn't consider it, but it has definitely been improving.
I'm actually trying to get away from OTA and use QAM because the signal is too unreliable in my location within the building, I've heard of the DTVpalDVR but until I move somewhere with a more reliable signal I would'nt consider it with the $250 price...
\But that brought another question to me head:

4. When the LST-3410a does begin to record does the output change on the component/composite/S.video change to whats being recorded [ I'm assuming that when the unit is off the outputs are off as well] this could work for unattended recordings to DVD recorder from composite outputs..

5. Hard drive replacements/upgrades?: Easy to do, or does the drive need to be prepped with an OS like replay/TiVo drives and the like?

Hello 3410A users. A difference of opinion between myself and Rammitinski regarding the 3410A has developed on another thread. Here's the background:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16595402#post16595402

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16595484#post16595484

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16596090#post16596090

The core issue:

Without TVGOS data available 3410A has only manual start/stop recording (pop-up duration timer) functionality.

The 3410A does have easy manual clock setting when TVGOS isn't functional and 'factory reset' hassle-full manual clock setting when suffering its TVGOS blocking 'Reserved' glitch. The following posts cover 3410A's manual timer functionality:

Post 3111 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6331364#post6331364)
After over a year of ownership, I just learned that...with no guide data, the screen states "No data available for this screen" and the Host Channel displays as 0 x 0. In this configuration, the VCR+ screen is useless as the scheduled recordings will not occur. Also, time settings will not hold, and 12:00 AM will be displayed, or may alternate with the correct time. Manual recordings will work, however, and the "popup timer" works as well.

If "No Listings" is displayed on the guide screen, timer recordings via the VCR+ screen will occur as entered, and the Host Channel will display properly.

Post 3156 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6451321#post6451321)
...if the TV Guide screen displays "No data available for this screen," and the Host Channel shows 0 x 0 in the diagnostic menu, scheduled recordings will probably not occur and time settings entered manually will not hold. If "No Listings" is displayed, everything works fine...

BTW, the pop-up duration timer always seems to work properly, but of course you have to start it up manually when the program begins.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16597248#post16597248

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16597876#post16597876
____________________________________________________________ _____

So do I 'get it', have it all wrong, or maybe there's a path through the middle. Can someone clarify or enlighten?

fallingwater: "So do I 'get it', have it all wrong, or maybe there's a path through the middle. Can someone clarify or enlighten?"

I had difficulty following all of your post, but my own opinion is that - without any TV Guide - you can set the clock and set manual (timer) recordings, though I'm not absolutely sure I've done this (but I thought I had)

I can't post because I've always had multiple TVG hosts available...
BUT I can remember posts from others who had no TVG data or host that have commented that clock and VCR+ continued to work....

Hey!! Stick around! In a couple of weeks, we'll know for certain! :)!...

I just thought it kind of odd that they would design the LG to work with manual timers and then turn around and still keep it dependent to some degree on a TVGOS (or time) signal to be able to do so (the Sony's are different in that they don't allow manual clock setting - plus, they have the v8 guide).

My two v7 HDD/DVD recorders have never missed a recording when using them with a satellite tuner and no antenna attached before (meaning no TVGOS signal whatsoever). Could be the LG really is designed more like the Sony, though. Maybe the TVGOS recorders with digital tuners were actually designed differently from the analog tunered-only ones.

I, also, thought I recalled a few people here stating that they were "going to continue using the LG like an expensive VCR", or were already doing so in the complete absence of any TVGOS signal, so I always assumed that it worked that way with no problems, and that they were completely sure of that themselves.

I mean, here I was, occasionally recommending this unit on this forum to people who were looking for an HD DVR with clear-QAM/ATSC/NTSC, and didn't mind setting timers with it like a VCR after the cutoff (in lieu of the DTV Pal ever working with it appropriately and dependably for everyone). I sure hope that if anybody took me up on that, they won't have any problems with it.

I edited the first post's links which hopefully work now. If not, readers can go to the posts by number.

This morning I re-entered the local ZIP instead of 00000 and once again set-up TVGOS on 3410A. The time updated right away (the manual setting was a minute slow) and the GUIDE light is on. I'll leave the 3410A off until tomorrow and check results. I don't expect EPG info but hopefully will see 'no listings' rather than 'no data'.

FWIW, Philips HDRW 720 shows 'no listings' when 00000 is entered as the ZIP and manual recordings can be set-up from TVGOS using its remote's TIMER button.

Have posters been able to set manual recordings when 3410A's RESERVED light is on and TVGOS can't be accessed?

4. When the LST-3410a does begin to record does the output change on the component/composite/S.video change to whats being recorded [ I'm assuming that when the unit is off the outputs are off as well] this could work for unattended recordings to DVD recorder from composite outputs..Yes, the selected output shows what's being recorded. Just one output at a time (I'm pretty sure composite and S-Video count as one) so you'll have to make sure you have composite selected beforehand.

5. Hard drive replacements/upgrades?: Easy to do, or does the drive need to be prepped with an OS like replay/TiVo drives and the like?Couldn't be easier. A 5400 RPM drive optimized for DVR use is recommended, but any standard PATA drive will work and they're a lot cheaper and easier to find. Even a SATA drive would probably work with a suitable adapter. Physical replacement is obvious: remove cables and screws holding mounting tray to chassis, then screws holding drive to tray. The LG will format the drive automatically when it sees it's necessary. Takes seconds; obviously not a low-level reformat. The format used is nothing any common OS would recognize.

Have posters been able to set manual recordings when 3410A's RESERVED light is on and TVGOS can't be accessed?

There might be case where this is "legitimate" and you can. However, it is USUALLY a symptom of an AV1 error (you'll get that message when you turn it on) and the only solution is a quick unplug/plug back in (about 5 seconds) of the power plug.
Also, if an AV1 error has occurred, any scheduled recordings will not take place.

In the past, I've had numerous AV1 errors, but I haven't had any for nearly three months (we got a new TVGOS host channel). I am pretty sure they are caused in part by bad TVGOS data, probably made worse by non-robust (ie flimsy) error handling in the unit's software. I'm hopeful the end of analog means never seeing AV1 errors again.

I'm interested in Zipcode 0000 and VRC+ for LG3410a users...

I'm testing 'other' things... and am unable to test this now...
This way WE can cover more ground....

Please be through and honest in your postings

This morning I re-entered the local ZIP instead of 00000 and once again set-up TVGOS on 3410A. The time updated right away (the manual setting was a minute slow) and the GUIDE light is on. I'll leave the 3410A off until tomorrow and check results. I don't expect EPG info but hopefully will see 'no listings' rather than 'no data'.

FWIW, Philips HDRW 720 shows 'no listings' when 00000 is entered as the ZIP and manual recordings can be set-up from TVGOS using its remote's TIMER button.

Have posters been able to set manual recordings when 3410A's RESERVED light is on and TVGOS can't be accessed?

Apparently analog TVGOS is still alive and kicking. The 3410A has a full line-up of TVGOS listings this morning and manual timer functionality.

Host ID is 0xF06; Host Channel is 0xD; VBI channel is 0x1B802.

I turned the 3410A off and will check it every day this week. I also reset HDRW 720's ZIP to the correct one and turned it off as well. Something else to check every day!

Entering 00000 as the ZIP code is supposed to reset/disable TVGOS. Google's links:
http://www.google.com/search?rls=ig&hl=en&q=+TVGOS+reset+ZIP+code+00000&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Entering 00000 as the ZIP code is supposed to reset/disable TVGOS.Yeah, it should. Always has for me. That's strange.

I'm interested in Zipcode 0000 and VRC+ for LG3410a users...

I'm testing 'other' things... and am unable to test this now...
This way WE can cover more ground....
I've been in a "passive" mode lately, just occasionally checking to see if my 3410a is still seeing packets from my test DTVPal - which it is...seems to go for at least 6 days at a time (without needing a reset), and possibly longer...couldn't tell recently, because turns out CBS stopped sending ANY digital TVGOS, apparently including the legacy stream (and even stopped broadcasting for some period the other night), so I tried resetting the Pal, and got nothing - but the packets are coming in today...

just for info, I hope to REMEMBER tomorrow, to record the total number of A and B packets seen in the last month or so on my 3410a, and the number of B and C packets seen by my Sony, and then to look again 24 hours LATER, to be able to compare the number of B packets added by each unit, to see if they saw the same number in a 24-hour period...

beginning next week, when analog TVGOS is gone, I will be up for doing more experimenting...Tony

4 units here still acting the same... Get GREAT data for 2 days, then locks up TVG Board.
Does it with and without all Analog TVG channels enabled OR Disabled, in TVG, and also in Channel Edit. Symptoms are 100% repeatable.
Does this with CBS 2-0 or DTVPal 3-0 as host.

I've reported this to Macrovision, multiple times.

a 1-2 second power cycle per day or every 2 days fixes it, and appears to be a workable fix as well....
I've been unable to find a reasonably priced timer that has a 1-2 second power interruption per day or 2 day...

And now that I've posted that ...... Now all 4 have lost all data except Saturday and Sunday....


So.... I'm jumping to VCR+ mode... Notes...
Zipcode 00000 doesn't work here... I tried it, and VCR+ immediately takes you to a TVG setup screen..

Texting VCR+ with 60076 and it allowed me to set up a recording...

I guess testing now shifts there.... DAMN!

I guess after tomorrow I'll feel free to do all kinds of testing.

As of tonight, still have 8 days of listings...same with my Sony 250, which - amusingly - includes listings for all the ANALOG channels through next Thursday. :)

I just came back from participating in the turnoff of 7-0 Analog in Chicago.

Long live Digital!

Now if Macrovision would fix it's data........

I still show data for various dates in the future....

I'm in the process of converting to VCR+ to see how that works..

Jan et al,

I was born when analog TV began. I watched Howdy Doody every day on a 5" Dumont in 1948. For those of us who grew up optimizing TV reproduction, it is a sad day. The loss of analog means that reception becomes either black or white, i.e. you either have a good picture or no picture. Many older Americans will be without their TV lifeline tonight. Very sad.

When I started out in television, it was Tube Type, Image Orthicon pickups, and B&W..... I still remember I/O Alignment....

Image Focus
Orth Focus
Multifocus
G4
G5
then peaking of Preamps, to elimate streaking...

Oh the days of running camera with a Horizontal ouput tube in one shirt pocket, Horizontal damper tube in the other shirt pocket, and warm to the touch Carbon mike intercom headsets!!!!

Color, and Now... Hi Def!!!

Jan et al,

I was born when analog TV began. I watched Howdy Doody every day on a 5" Dumont in 1948. For those of us who grew up optimizing TV reproduction, it is a sad day. The loss of analog means that reception becomes either black or white, i.e. you either have a good picture or no picture. Many older Americans will be without their TV lifeline tonight. Very sad.

I watched Howdy Doody also, and met Captain Kangaroo back when video tape was 4" reel to reel. I also feel bad that many will lose their signals today. I think it was stupid to give $40 for a converter box. Give $40 credit for a new digital TV. Such an offer would have helped more people and save a lot of energy. But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

And I'm sure it's not related, but my TVGUIDE indicator has been on all day. No listings and no A packets now either. But I made 24 hours of cable signal VCR tape in case I lose my lineup. So far I still get B packets which seem to make my clock work. I had to do a 5 second reset today, and the clock was back in a few seconds.

Hi All,

While I'm not sad to see the DTV technology progressing, I too, am sad for the end of an era.

I visited the Howdy Doody show twice as a child, sitting in the Peanut Gallery. It was awesome! There was no tape at that time, Everything was either live or kinescope. Remember that one: Film projected into a TV Camera? First saw the Peacock in color standing outside a TV store in a shopping center, watching an early 50's World Series. RCA round screen about 12 inches. Those were the days.

We lived in Northwest Washington, DC, about a mile from the 4 original VHF transmitters. We had TERRIBLE ghosting, and the chief engineer from WTOP-TV (now WUSA), who was a friend of my Father's, came out to the house to look at the problem. The signal was so strong that he could draw a spark off of the 300 Ohm twin lead!

Fine memories...

And now back to the problem at hand. Our CBS station switched freqs today at noon and I just rescanned the Pro. Immediately got A & B packets. Waiting for listings or channel lineup changes. I'll keep you posted. Good luck to all.

For a few years, I ran videotape on Ampex 2" Quad Machine "X6", which was the serial number of the 6th VTR Ampex ever sold!!

As a kid in High School, I saw the color broadcast out of Chicago, where NBC (I think then WBKB ??) showed the bowl of fruit, where some comedian painted the Banana Purple as a joke! Anyone who knows colors knows this will cause you to try and change phase.... and get no-where... I seem to remember that made the newspapers at the time!

It's been 2 days since I turned off DTVPal, and disabled all Analog channels with TVG....
I still have some data... I would assume it should trickle out... No TVG light when powered down... Now, let's see if it crashes this weekend... If it doesn't, Next Week, Macrovision is going to get another nastygram from me... !!!

hm...I remember first seeing a TV at my uncle's house fairly close to Philadelphia...seems to me it was a fairly big box, with a screen of maybe 8 inches (10?)

The TV we got at home some years later was 17 inches diagonal, getting its quite snowy picture (on 3 channels), from a 50 foot tower with the antenna usually aimed toward Baltimore, about 100 miles to the west of our farm...The favorite show of my brother and me was Howdy Doody at the time...

As for this evening, I saw the guide light on my 3410a go out at midnight, when CBS 5 stopped broadcasting, then turned the unit on, used the code for search for a new host channel, and turned the unit off. After I did this, the unit immediately had the guide light on, but with the time showing 11:30. It reset to the correct time at 12:07.

A while later, I turned it on again, and checked the diag screens, which showed the host channel as 0x0, so just seeing the DTVPal's data briefly didn't convince the 3410a. Anyway, I turned the unit off, and am going to bed. I plan to rescan after I get up tomorrow, and - of course - check to see whether my unit found any program data from the Pal. If not, I'll use the search for new host channel code again...

My 3410A's GUIDE light went out sometime after 5:00p yesterday, possibly (probably?) never to return. Later today I'll turn the damned thing on and see how (SN)AFU'd it is.

The HDRW 720, which is far less fussy, had been getting the same host info and is now showing 0x0 and 'No Listings' with manual recordings still available from TVGOS.

Frankly I can live without TVGOS. The only really exceptional thing about it is extremely flexible manual channel mapping. I prefer to leave the HDRW 720 on 24/7 anyway, and the 3410A when left on without TVGOS provides 12 hour manual recordings with editing, much like Philips 3575/3576 DVD recorders.

I remember when CBS's color wheel system was briefly adapted in the early '50's and B & W sets displayed the same snow that NTSC sets do now when a color program aired. Then came those snazzy 15" color sets at NBC's Radio City!
http://www.tvhistory.tv/advertising3.htm

I am still getting analog guide data OTA. I was surprised to see that the clock reset correctly last night and I have new listings this morning. My host channel is now 32 (Hex 0x20). I haven't done anything to my 3410 other than unplug it and rescan to clear some odd behavior. It found the new host channel and the guide light was on last night. I do have a DTV pal but haven't tried it yet. Figured I would wait until the analogs went dark and the guide data disappeared. Looks like it will be another two weeks until the nightlight channel 32 goes dark (June 26).

My 3410A's GUIDE light went out sometime after 5:00p yesterday, possibly (probably?) never to return.

Same here. No Guide light on today. Will check it later.

Same here. No Guide light on today. Will check it later.
Hi, Juan...if I remember, you have cable...? So I can't give you any advice...

As for me, my unit has now switched host channel to 3, the output from my DTVPal...but it still didn't give me any listing for day 8 - actually the guide light has been on for the last 2 hours (the afternoon download), but I don't expect it to work, because I was checking the 3410as diag screens, and I think I turned the unit off right AFTER the afternoon download began, which is not good.

I'm hoping the overnight download didn't work because of some need to cycle through the data from the new host channel in some prescribed order...my fingers are for tonight!

FWIW, in Davidsonville, MD, my 2 active units have guide lights on, station lists but no listings. I am connected to Comcast cable and OTA. I have a plethora of digital channels which were not there 2 weeks ago. They are the digital SD and HD channels from the digital tier. I subscribe to this. I will return my 3416 for which I pay a lot each month. Amazing!!!

My 3410A's GUIDE light went out sometime after 5:00p yesterday, possibly (probably?) never to return. Later today I'll turn the damned thing on and see how (SN)AFU'd it is.

The HDRW 720, which is far less fussy, had been getting the same host info and is now showing 0x0 and 'No Listings' with manual recordings still available from TVGOS.

Late yesterday the HDRW 720 and 3410A parted company. Both asked for a line-up confirmation after being turned on and TVGOS selected. Both froze when the same line-up selection was made.

After rebooting the HDRW 720showed Host ID as 0xF06; Host Channel as 0xD as it and the 3410A had both indicated earlier. It displays a new channel line-up with many channel number errors but correct listing info. Manual recordings are available from the TIMER button.

After rebooting the 3410A doesn't do anything when either TVGOS or VCR+ is selected. Its clock is approx. 30 secs. slow. The GUIDE and RESERVED lights remain off.

Interesting.... 4-5 days after turning off any channel that was known to have TVG data on it....
Turning it "OFF" in the TVG listings, and deleting it from Channel Edit in Menu....

Two things stand out:
1. I'm still getting TVG data on all 4 units for Today only....
2. TVG has NOT Locked up, showed Invalid recording message... Since turning off DTVPal....

If you remember, all 4 units locked to the TVG Host off DTVPal would get a full weeks data, then lock up...... Forcing a power cycle...

It's NOT locking up.... Any of the 4, that used to lockup every 2 days with data off DTVPal....

Another reason to believe that the data coming off DTVPal in TVG mode is corrupted..

I'll send another email to Macrovision folks.... but I bet there won't be any responses....

I just sent this to 5 different TVG email accounts... (I just found out about two more people higher up!)

V7 TVG Data in Chicago, USED to be fine. I know, I helped to install it at ABC!
However... Since CBS analog and Digital install, You have had serious data issues with your V7 TVG data in Chicago!

Here are the Cliff notes:

with Multiple LG3410a's (I have 4), all with latest firmware, and V7 TVG, TVG would work Fine on Channel 7 (ABC) over the air, or, via Cable. I work at ABC, and installed the Norpak TVG inserter in the program path years ago -- by the way. Therefore I have a Vested Interest in making sure that TVG Data is pristine.

When You started sending V7 TVG on CBS 2-0 Over the air or via Cable, I would get a weeks worth of TVG Data, then the TVG board within the LG3410a would Lock up, and only recourse is a power cycle of the 3410a. It would again start getting data for 2 more days, then lockup again.
When you started transmitting data off CBS 2-1, with the SCTE 127 data, I tried multiple DTVPal or DTVPal+ units set for TVG mode, with proper Scientific Atlanta codes to Turn On TVG Data in the VBI (Lines 13--16 on both fields), and I started reporting that Both CBS 2-0 OTA and Cable, as well as SCTE 127 datat path via DTVPal was causing issues with Multiple LG3410a.

THEY USED TO BE FINE USING ABC OTA... BUT ANALOG HAS SHUT OFF.... And TVG Data Reception off CBS 2-0 off cable, or 3-0 (Where I put DTVPal in cable-- or DTVPal direct into 3410a bypassing cable altogether....) Both act the same way:
3410a works fine for 2 days receiving a week's worth of data..... Then it locks up, until you power cycle the unit...

IT DOES IT ON MULTIPLE 3401a UNITS.
IT DOES IT ON CBS OFF CABLE
IT DOES IT ON DTVPal OUTPUT IN TVG MODE

I can go into the G*Test in TVG Messages, and the data is flawless into all 3410's.
I can turn on Closed Captioning, and the CC displayed is NOT corrupted on 3410's or TV's.
The Image the 3410's or TV's receives is Flawless, no ghosting...
I have tried amplifying the signal, and also padding it down in 6Db steps, to 18Db, and signal strength doesn't change the problem...

I believe the data being sent is corrupt.

Data DOES COME IN. You'll get a week's worth of data in 2 days.... Then,
The next time you try and go into TVG you'll find out it will either:
1. Not go into TVG at all.
2. Display an "Invalid A/V Recording" message and not go into TVG at all.
3. Not receive any audio at all for 30 seconds, then display "Invalid A/V Recording" message, and then not go into TVG at all.
4. Start going into TVG, then freezing.

Only Solution is: Pull the Power from the LG3410a, and reset it. Then it works... For 2 more days, then the whole process repeats....

It's pretty obvious when 4 units to the exact same thing simultaneously.....

It is NOT 4 bad TVG boards!
Note than when Host TVG channels are disabled in TVG, and Channel edit of the 3410a, as if these channels do not exist.... And No TVG host is found: Host 0x0 Then TVG DOES NOT LOCK UP... Only when the host is CBS off Cable or off DTVPal does this 2 day lockup occur!

I think you are sending data that overwrites TVG Data Memory, and into TVG OS, corrupting, locking up TVG OS... Forcing a power cycle to 'clear' it...

This started last October, when you turned on CBS 2-0 TVG Data, and the SAME, EXACT SENERIO OCCURS WITH SCTE 127 DATA FROM DTVPal TVG VBI DATA.
What I'm informing you of is absolutely correct and has been documented multiple ways since last October, when I first saw this occurring.
I cannot revert back to Channel 7 OTA for V7 TVG Delivery, as that transmitter is no longer on the air...
SCTE 127 data delivery to my LG3410a's via DTVPal in TVG Mode would be the optimum way of receiving V7 TVG Data.
PLEASE LOOK INTO THIS.... I will be willing to help and assist in any way...

Jan Janowski

Well, no luck so far in getting listings via my DTVPal.

I'm still getting A and B packets from the Pal, but - as far as I can tell - my 3410a doesn't like them. So no listings so far for next Saturday and Sunday.

So at 1:30 PM, I decided to try what I had been doing most of last year to get listings, i.e., a 6-second unplug. When I plugged it back in, after a few seconds the time showed (still correct) and the guide light came on (which it hadn't done, as far as I can tell, for the previous 24 hours). I know it stayed on for a while, but unfortunately my attention wandered, and when I glanced up again, the time was 1:44, which was the time when the afternoon download had ordinarily been starting, but the guide light was no longer on. Maybe a minute later, the guide light came on, but only stayed on for a short time. Then it came on again, then off. And it did this a third time (during which I estimated the ON time to be about 10 seconds). It has since stayed off.

I don't know what this means, but it isn't good...maybe the data coming from the Pal is REALLY bad??? even though it is identified as A and B packets...?

Jan,



The problem lies in your LG DVRs. They have plenty of known issues; one issue is the DVR locking up over time. This is not due to the TVG data, but due to the unit itself. This is an LG product and they will have to deal with this issue. You also have an unsupported set up with putting the DTVPal signal on channel 3. There is nothing wrong with the V7 TVG data in your area; we have confirmation of others working. There is nothing more we can do here. Please contact LG for further support with this product.



Thank you,



nick ferrelli

There appears to be interconnection with vcr+ and TVG...
I'm now trying 2-0 off cable.

no joy today, either, in terms of getting program listings via the Pal (set up as indicated below) ...I even tried entering the substitute zip code in my unit this morning, which DID result in the guide light being on, but didn't yield any listings, and ALSO resulted in the diag screens showing 0x0 as the host channel...a step backwards, if anything

so I' checked to make sure the Pal is still delivering A and B packets (which it is), restored the normal zip code, and entered the code to search for a new host channel again, to see if anything good happens THIS time around. :confused:

OOPS: I just checked, and realized I entered the substitute zip code incorrectly...my bad:)

update well, at 5:30, I found that it had restored 3 as the host channel, and the unit had registered a significant number of host-channel packets...does this mean it actually likes the Pal output now? probably not, but we'll see tomorrow AM.

Tony, Jan, et al,

I have the same situation here in DC. Perfect A & B packets, time set correctly, but no listings populated. I changed from AV1 to channel 3, but since there is no Ch3 on the air here, and I only want OTA channels, I just combined the output of the PAL with the OTA antenna signal. Channel 3 is locked as the Host channel and all tests work fine. I have counted up 16000+ A and 57000+ B packets in the last 24 hours. Sure do not know what's up. I am going to switch back to real zip and see what haps.

Sure don't like Macrovision's answer to your e-mail. It seems tht we are between a rock and another rock!

Will let you know if anything comes of this test.

Tony, Jan, et al,
...
Sure don't like Macrovision's answer to your e-mail. It seems tht we are between a rock and another rock!

Will let you know if anything comes of this test.
best of luck (to all of us!) Tony

Tony, Jan, et al,

I have the same situation here in DC. Perfect A & B packets, time set correctly, but no listings populated. I changed from AV1 to channel 3, but since there is no Ch3 on the air here, and I only want OTA channels, I just combined the output of the PAL with the OTA antenna signal. Channel 3 is locked as the Host channel and all tests work fine. I have counted up 16000+ A and 57000+ B packets in the last 24 hours. Sure do not know what's up. I am going to switch back to real zip and see what haps.

Sure don't like Macrovision's answer to your e-mail. It seems tht we are between a rock and another rock!

Will let you know if anything comes of this test.

Albertso et al,

I continue to have a TVGOS populated by Antenna and cable stations. this continues to work normally even though I have no dtvPal unit, Also White Guide lights stay on on both units. They work perfectly for use as VCR's. N Listings from Cable or rooftop antenna. I am 8 miles west of Annapolis. Why do i still have correct station designations?

You are probably getting the guide data from a nightlight station like I am. The Chicago market has one analog, WFLD CH 32, which is transmitting the guide until it goes dark on June 26. You can verify the guide channel for your 3410 by entering a diagnostic code in the messages menu on the VCR plus screen. A list of nightlight channels is here:

http://www.fcc.gov/DA-09-1303A2.pdf (http://www.fcc.gov/DA-09-1303A2.pdf)

I would bet it's coming from WTTG, the FOX affiliate in your market that will continue broadcasting its analog signal until July 12.

The problem lies in your LG DVRs. They have plenty of known issues; one issue is the DVR locking up over time. This is not due to the TVG data, but due to the unit itself. This is an LG product and they will have to deal with this issue. You also have an unsupported set up with putting the DTVPal signal on channel 3. There is nothing wrong with the V7 TVG data in your area; we have confirmation of others working. There is nothing more we can do here. Please contact LG for further support with this product.

With that answer, it seems appropriate that we begin a letter writing campaign to LG, requesting that they revise the firmware to work with the DTVPal. This is the only way we will ever get the guide working on our DVRs. I recall the comment made previously that LG knew (or should have known) that the 3410's guide would no longer work once analog shutdown occurred, but for whatever reason they failed to design the product for this certainty. This decision resulted in the obsolescence of their product well before the end of its useful life. I've got to think that if enough of us write letters to upper management, they just might fix the firmware. I would even be willing to pay a reasonable amount for this update.

I'm in the Detroit area, OTA-only. Last night I set up my 3410a with the Pal, similar to avnstf's setup, using just regular cable splitters and combining back into the antenna-in of the 3410a.

Prior to this, I had no listings and my host channel was 0x0, and seemed like the guide light was on continuously. After the set-up, the guide light came on, the clock corrected itself. This morning I checked and the guide light was off, but I had started getting listings, and the host channel was 0x3 (which is what the Pal is set for). I still have the 3410a set for my regular zip code, and I didn't touch the zip code setting on the Pal.

So, it seems like its working for me, but I wonder if I'll run into the problems in the near future which some of you have had once you had intial success.

You are probably getting the guide data from a nightlight station like I am. The Chicago market has one analog, WFLD CH 32, which is transmitting the guide until it goes dark on June 26. You can verify the guide channel for your 3410 by entering a diagnostic code in the messages menu on the VCR plus screen. A list of nightlight channels is here:

http://www.fcc.gov/DA-09-1303A2.pdf

I would bet it's coming from WTTG, the FOX affiliate in your market that will continue broadcasting its analog signal until July 12.

Link doesn't work, but this one at least explains Nightlight Service.

http://www.fcc.gov/realaudio/presentations/2009/060309/gore.pdf

...we want to thank the ninety-nine stations that have volunteered thus far to provide “nightlight” service for up to 30 days after June 12th. The statutory nightlight was enacted last December in the Short-term Analog Flash and Emergency Readiness Act. The Act permits stations to keep their analog signal on for up to 30 days following the end of the transition solely for the purpose of providing emergency and DTV transition information. Stations operating in analog on channels 2 through 51 are eligible to participate in the program, provided they are not moving to their analog channel for digital service and would not cause harmful interference to other digital television signals. The Nightlight will provide critical information for any viewers who do not have or have not installed the necessary equipment to receive digital broadcasts by the transition deadline...

And here's the list!

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-291375A1.pdf

Nightlight Service probably explains where the analog data for TVGOS on HDRW 720 is coming from. Too bad 3410A apparently doesn't see it.

3410A's current state:
TVGOS and VCR+ are nonfuctional. No RESERVE or GUIDE lights. Clock can't be reset.

Well, I'm in the same boat most are. I got a PAL last week and have been trying various combinations to get guide data out of it. CH 4 Inserter combiner, locking the unit to ch 4, and setting the PAL for 6-1 as the guide station after going to guide mode. Supposedly 6-1 is the CBS HD feed and it is the supposed guide station off antenna. First birthday results in new lineup download but no Program info.

I do get channel lineup info ,also on cable 10-0 , but no listing info, however I was getting that before I bought the PAL. The nightlight station here is Ch6 (CBS) but if I hook up to cable I get guide info off PBS (10-0). Not sure where that is coming from or if comcast is moving it from one station to another some way. Guide light is erratic whether I'm looking at the cable channels or the Pal output.

The noise I mentioned earlier is coming from the 9V regulator chip, which I will replace if they ever get these things working again, otherwise I'm shelving the unit for the time being.

I also scoped the line 16 info and VBI packets are apparent on cable ch10, as well as it passing G test there, but still no program data. There also are data on lines 17, 18, 19 and 20.

Frustrating as all get out. I have never really used the 3410 as a recorder much, just as a cable guide. But it has been pretty useless for over a year here in Portland. Maybe after June 27 and the nightlight stations go off air the situation will change again. :confused:

I'm in the Detroit area, OTA-only. Last night I set up my 3410a with the Pal, similar to avnstf's setup, using just regular cable splitters and combining back into the antenna-in of the 3410a.

Prior to this, I had no listings and my host channel was 0x0, and seemed like the guide light was on continuously. After the set-up, the guide light came on, the clock corrected itself. This morning I checked and the guide light was off, but I had started getting listings, and the host channel was 0x3 (which is what the Pal is set for). I still have the 3410a set for my regular zip code, and I didn't touch the zip code setting on the Pal.

So, it seems like its working for me, but I wonder if I'll run into the problems in the near future which some of you have had once you had intial success.
I wish I had any success at all getting program listings...NOTHING since Friday, even though my 3410a finds channel 3 as host - it accepts a modest number of packets (according to the diag screens), but then stops...been around twice like that so far...

now I'm resorting to putting the substitute zip code in the 3410a setup, to see if THAT makes a difference, but I'm very doubtful :(

(PS - what vintage Pal do you have?...mine is from last summer's early batch...)

With that answer, it seems appropriate that we begin a letter writing campaign to LG, requesting that they revise the firmware to work with the DTVPal. This is the only way we will ever get the guide working on our DVRs. I recall the comment made previously that LG knew (or should have known) that the 3410's guide would no longer work once analog shutdown occurred, but for whatever reason they failed to design the product for this certainty. This decision resulted in the obsolescence of their product well before the end of its useful life. I've got to think that if enough of us write letters to upper management, they just might fix the firmware. I would even be willing to pay a reasonable amount for this update.

I wouldn't pay LG anything! When I last spoke to one of their engineers a few years ago about the issues with the 3410A, he made it very clear that as far as they are concerned this model has reached the end of its serviceable life. At one point I owned two of these units, but I did not hesitate for a second when the opportunity arose to give one of them away. I will never buy another LG product again. :mad:

As for Macrovision & TVGOS, suffice it to say that I have, in just the past 30 days alone, managed to offend just about everyone involved with that service. I'm not as patient as you guys are, and I don't think I should be "forced" to seek "workarounds" for problems manufacturers and service providers create when they introduce "upgrades" and "updates" to firmware/software which render (expensive) equipment practically useless. I realize they're in business to make money, but this is absolutely ridiculous. The latest TVGOS software could've been written to make it backwards-compatible with legacy devices. It's not like the latest version of TVGOS is brimming with new, improved features. In fact, they've stripped it down to nothing more than you could probably get from your daily newspaper...no options for reminders, recordings, etc. The PSIP EPG can do way better than what the latest TVGOS version offers, but most TV engineers I've spoken to go into cardiac distress whenever I mention "PSIP EPG" to them. I used to constantly "remind" them to make sure that the data (including the clock) was correct, and many I spoke to considered including program info was an unnecessary luxury. Things are no better now that the transition is over, and they will probably get worse in the future.

I was involved with a conference call with 3 people from the M*********N company today...
Their claim is:
1. I'm probably right about the CBS TVG data, or DTVPal TVG data over-running the TVG Memory and corrupting the TVG OS memory.
2. They are claiming the problem is LG's... (Lockups).
3. They are also claiming that the ONLY WAY that DTVPal will work is by using the "Cable Yes, Cablebox Yes, mode, and the use of SD Video (ONLY) recording, with NO OTA or CABLE RF interconnect whatsoever!!!


I will hook up one 3410a Exactly as I was told, to see if DTVPal will work that way.

In the meantime, I would like to enlist the help of the others here, to look at the drawings, and assist with a (Hopefully) Simple hardware mod that may become a 'work-around'....

I was involved with a conference call with 3 people from the M*********N company today...
Their claim is:
1. I'm probably right about the CBS TVG data, or DTVPal TVG data over-running the TVG Memory and corrupting the TVG OS memory.
2. They are claiming the problem is LG's... (Lockups).
3. They are also claiming that the ONLY WAY that DTVPal will work is by using the "Cable Yes, Cablebox Yes, mode, and the use of SD Video (ONLY) recording, with NO OTA or CABLE RF interconnect whatsoever!!!


I will hook up one 3410a Exactly as I was told, to see if DTVPal will work that way.

In the meantime, I would like to enlist the help of the others here, to look at the drawings, and assist with a (Hopefully) Simple hardware mod that may become a 'work-around'....
I've just hooked up mine that way, but WITH the usual direct antenna connection and WITHOUT setting up the link from the 3410a to the Pal, because IF I get TVGOS data, I will just change the channel numbers to the digital ones!

I don't see how the Pal will be able to tell the difference, and the LG DOES allow one to change analog channel numbers to digital ones...:)

(But will it still insert the program info...? )

I don't see how the Pal will be able to tell the difference, and the LG DOES allow one to change analog channel numbers to digital ones...:)

(But will it still insert the program info...? )


I agree with you, the Pal should not be able to tell the difference.

I'm going to set one LG up as per the phone conversation tonight, but in meantime.....

I'd like to enlist the folks here who can read schematics good... to assist me with something...
I am working on finding the reset circuitry on the TVG board., and I'd be much obliged if someone out there can examine the display panel schematic, and tell me how to decode the AM or PM indicator off the front panel display.

I'd prefer a low going AM indicator.

What I want to do: I'm examining a TVG board during lunch, to find a reset circuit... I'll hook up a button to it. Then I'll put it in a DVR, and set it for a DTVPal, and after it locks up 2-3 days after it gets data, and TVG is locked up, I'll hit the 'new' reset button... If TVG comes back to life (as I hope it will) the next thing would be to find something in the LG that repeats once a day.... I'm thinking the AM or PM indicator would be easiest...

Then, I'd hook the decoded (Low going) AM indicator (which goes on at midnight) to a integrator circuit, and feed that to the reset circuitry on the TVG board, providing a once-a-day reset for TVG, which will reset the TVG board if it is locked up, restarting the 2-3 day lockup, which never gets to lockup, because of the daily reset.
To prevent a recording that crosses Midnight from being stopped, a diode pullup from +5V (only goes on when powered up) will prevent the reset from happening when powered up (during a record).

I'm going to need some help decoding the AM/PM indicator. I'm thinking AM would be best, and the pins of the display itself would be easier to get at than the IC which has pins all around it REAL close together.

Because I got data easily of the Pal, and because a one second power cycle got it working again... Though I was hoping for an 'external fix' ---- I guess not..

Another camp heard from:

Jan,

How are you doing? Hope all is well. I really don't have much to bring to the party here. The last TVG product we made was several years ago and most of the engineering team has been disbanded to other projects. Regarding the 3410, as you are aware, there has been no supported for this product for quit a few years now and my only involvement here was operational testing and some basic trouble shooting.

Sorry I can't be of any further help.

I was involved with a conference call with 3 people from the M*********N company today...Did you (or if not, could you) ask them for as much detail as they're willing to give you about what they're sending for conversion to VBI? Is it a particular version of TVGOS for each line or a particular lineup or some combination of the two? If separate versions, what's on which line? Also, are TVGOS receivers typically backward-compatible, i.e. should a v.7 device work with v.6 and earlier data? Finally, what are the differences among versions?

I was involved with a conference call with 3 people from the M*********N company today...
Their claim is:
1. I'm probably right about the CBS TVG data, or DTVPal TVG data over-running the TVG Memory and corrupting the TVG OS memory.
2. They are claiming the problem is LG's... (Lockups).
3. They are also claiming that the ONLY WAY that DTVPal will work is by using the "Cable Yes, Cablebox Yes, mode, and the use of SD Video (ONLY) recording, with NO OTA or CABLE RF interconnect whatsoever!!!


I will hook up one 3410a Exactly as I was told, to see if DTVPal will work that way.

In the meantime, I would like to enlist the help of the others here, to look at the drawings, and assist with a (Hopefully) Simple hardware mod that may become a 'work-around'....
hi janj et al...

1st - what drawings are you talking about ?

2nd - i have a bit of theory i'd like to toss out here, for what it's worth...
this is only based on common sense and my own observations testing the thing with
a V7 TVGOS panasonic DMR-E95 as the target device...

1 - when the PAL is in TVGOS mode, it's supposed to grab TVGOS data from its digital environment, convert it to an analog stream, and insert it into the appropriate spot in the VBI for the analog device rto find.

2 - the device is not really a smart device. it's pretty dumb. HOWEVER, it HAS to perform some work with the incoming TVGOS stream, because it MUST modify the channel lineup with bogus analog compatible ( read legacy ) channel numbers that are presented to the legacy device to use ( tvgos mode, cable yes, box yes ), since legacy devices don't know anything about digital channel designations.

3 - the above having been said, there is presumably SOME intelligence going on inside the PAL before it passes data to the legacy device. since there is no 2-way communication between the PAL and the legacy device beyond SA channel commands, it is at least slightly logical to assume that the PAL is not doing a full time job for this conversion process, and MAY not even be doing the job continuously, but rather once or twice before discontinuing its work. this is because the PAL does not know if the legacy device is out there until the legacy device actually performs an SA channel command to start things. it is certainly within the realm of possibility that the PAL might work properly at first, and then seem to STOP working under these assumptions.
ie, the PAL, after performing its process once, may just sit idly until it receives the SA command to go to the host channel. this would be unfortunate, because it would make ' exotic ' configurations ( eg, cable yes, box no ) quite cumbersome to implement.
all one might hope for is that i'm wrong, and that the PAL will do its thing continuously if it's parked on a host channel ( my guess is that it does NOT do this )...

4 - i have 2 F103 TR-40's and 1 F106 PAL+. All of these boxes exhibit a tuner associated problem that screws up the SA remote command process whenever the tuner is in an ' unlocked ' condition... in an unlocked condition, the PAL either completely misses SA remote commands, truncates them, or combines them, yielding invalid channel commands. the box DOES recover from this condition most of the time, but sometimes takes a very long time to do so. meanwhile, the legacy device might be shoving out channel commands right and left that the PAL is ignoring. This has been acknowledged by the Dish folks as a known problem with the software, and they have said that they are working on a resolution, but nothing more...

with all of this having been said, my theory is that in order to work properly at all, the PAL must, as folks have said before, be set up with cable yes, box yes, if one is to obtain continuous TVGOS service presented to the legacy device. in addition, since there is a known tuner-sa remote response bug, the term ' working properly ' assumes that the PAL can sit there for longer than we might expect, in order to overcome the bug during the normal process. if the co-connected devices can tolerate the bug in order to complete all the listing and lineup stuff ( ie, get a host, get a lineup, etc ), then the legacy device would ultimately STOP sending SA commands that would command the PAL to an unused ( and therefore unlocked ) channel, thereby at least NOT exposing the tuner bug, and ultimately working continuously.

this, of course, does NOT address exotic implementations ( cable yes, box no, channel 3 insertion, etc ), because the PAL likely stalls out after one or two cycles, until it gets an SA command to the host channel in order to trigger it to come to life.

my theory on the funky zip codes is that the funky zip code represents a PAL host, along with its ' mapped legacy ' channels, in lieu of the regular market TVGOS data stream... using the regular zip code in the legacy device will make it search for a host in the data stream that represents the regular market, along with the regular market's channel designations ( which would be foreign to a legacy analog tvgos device, like a V7 analog device ). The result of this is not predictable, but, at best, would result in getting a lineup, but with all channels turned off, requiring a manual edit of the lineup once it has been received.

in closing, using the regular zip, along with cable yes, box no, SHOULD ultimately work, but MAY only work continuously through the use of a MANUAL SA command to the host channel every so sften ( like once every 24 hours or something )...

again, this is just based on my own observations and testing, with the exception of the tuner bug issue, which HAS been acknowledged to me by the Dish folks, and DOES cover TR-40, PAL, and PAL+ boxes...

best regards,
ron g

Did you (or if not, could you) ask them for as much detail as they're willing to give you about what they're sending for conversion to VBI? Is it a particular version of TVGOS for each line or a particular lineup or some combination of the two? If separate versions, what's on which line? Also, are TVGOS receivers typically backward-compatible, i.e. should a v.7 device work with v.6 and earlier data? Finally, what are the differences among versions?
I would also like to hear from the horse's mouth, just what data they are sending out over the legacy stream in terms of zip codes, i.e., for each TVGOS version, is it sending the same data that it USED to send via the analog stations, PLUS the data for the substitute zip codes? Specifically, does it send the data that it USED TO BROADCAST for the real zip codes, and is this (as well as the data for the substitute zip codes) converted to precisely the same format as the data used to have?

I think it is really ridiculous that we have to jump through hoops to find out really basic info, when we have in the PAST had bad experiences with the analog data when it had defects that prevented our units from getting program info properly, and those problems were never acknowledged...

2 - the device is not really a smart device. it's pretty dumb. HOWEVER, it HAS to perform some work with the incoming TVGOS stream, because it MUST modify the channel lineup with bogus analog compatible ( read legacy ) channel numbers that are presented to the legacy device to use ( tvgos mode, cable yes, box yes ), since legacy devices don't know anything about digital channel designions.
...
in closing, using the regular zip, along with cable yes, box no, SHOULD ultimately work, but MAY only work continuously through the use of a MANUAL SA command to the host channel every so sften ( like once every 24 hours or something )...

Hi - two major points on which I disagree with, or have a different experience than what you've said:

with respect to 1, I don't think the Pal is modifying anything about lineups or channel numbers in the data...the legacy stream, as I have been given to understand by a guy who knew a LOT of technical detail - in the San Francisco OTA thread - has the vbi-format data prepackaged in its stream, and the Pal simply takes these prepared packages and inserts them into the vertical blankng intervals of the Pal's analog output. Period. It doesn't translate anything or add anything. Once it identifies the channel carrying the legacy stream, it simply takes these data packages from that stream and inserts them into another (the analog) stream, vb interval by vb interval.

The data for the substitute zip codes, therefore, would be in the incoming stream already, having the analog-form channel numbers already...it wouldn't be up to the Pal to read the standard analog data, labeled by the real zip codes and channel numbers, and to internally translate these data...

With respect to your closing remarks, I have monitored the output of the Pal for several weeks with my 3410a, seeing A and B packets whenever I was supposed to....after I started being more careful about the WHENEVER (restricting it to known periods for TVGOS data) - I haven't had to reset the Pal for at least a week at a time, and I think whenever I did reset it, I wasn't seeing data because it was at the wrong time or - perhaps - I did have one power glitch...that's my experience....(of course, I am just talking about seeing the packets in diagnostic screens of the 3410a...since the transition, my unit has not actually gotten program data from the packets!)

This is partly why I wish we could get some clarification of WHAT data is actually in the legacy stream!

Cheers - Tony

OK...further news:

With the setup I put in this morning, I actually got the analog-type lineup, which is considerably shorter than the normal lineup.

I had originally tried the "standard" setup yesterday, except that I didn't have the link for the 3410a to control the Pal...00005 zip code, cable WITH box. But didn't appear to get anything...

Decided to simplify to cable NO box, since I either get the TVGOS data or don't...so, instead of rca from the Pal to AV1, as the cable box setup seemed to require, I just ran rg-? from the Pal to the cable input. (I'm completely unfamilliar with these cable setups, since I have never had cable to my units.)

Anyway, I didn't notice at first, but at one point this afternoon I noticed all the 3-digit numbers on the channels in the TV Guide AND the fact that the primary PBS station for the area (KQED 9.1) WASN"T IN THE GUIDE AT ALL.

(I has already checked forward, so I knew there were no listings added, so I now have 5 days of no listings. But it did replace or renumber the other main channels (i.e., other than KQED - it does have PBS KSCM...a college operation that doesn't even have HD, nor many of the main PBS programs).

So...I'll leave this for the rest of the day, and if the guide light activates at all this evening, I'll leave it overnight. (I say this because it seems to me that the guide activity, in terms of the light, seems to terminate downloads before it should, and then the only way to get later downloads is to reboot, after which it goes for about half a day....this seems to be the way it's acted ever since Saturday...)

The cable settings, avoiding joining the Pal output to the antenna signal and instead having the pal output go directly to the 3410a, definitely gives a cleaner picture, so maybe there WAS some problem with the signal getting to the the 3410a with the joiner...

Having now only listings as far as Friday, I will be very curious to see whether I get any new listings overnight (assuming the guide light even goes on)...

Cheers - Tony

Ah...forgot to mention that I renumbered two of the channels back to their real numbers, returning 151 to 5.1 and 211 to 11.1, just to see what happens IF new data comes in...:)

2nd addendum: and YES, I definitely DID have the antenna connected to this unit, but this new lineup still arrived. (Of course. Microvision might say that it is because I have the antenna connected that the guide light stops coming on...but exactly how would one cause the other? ...I ask)

I'm trying something different... At lunch at work, added a reset switch to a TVG board for 3410a... Installed it in experimental unit...

INTERESTING: About 1.5 years ago, I was given a dead 3410a (motherboard). Last night I pulled the TVG board out, and added switch... Installed it in Expermental unit tonight...

What do you know! Scheduled recordings OTA channels were STILL IN THE CARD! and the card hadn't been powered up in over a year!

I would never have believed it.... I'm wondering..... Is the ram on this board EE Prom? There is no battery on board.

Tuned the DTVPal on again (Had to re-scan due to Channel changes in Chicagoland for CBS DT)... Switched it back to TVG mode, and entered the SA commands (121)...
Locked the Exp unit to Channel 3.... and once it locks up in probably 3 days, I'll hit the reset button and "SEE WHAT HAPPENS"... That will be step 1.

Step 2 I'm going to need some help on.... I need to decode the AM light on the display... as a once-a-day reset signal....
Step 3 will be taking the AM reset, feeding it into an integrator, and connecting it to the reset of the TVG board (with the override from +5v mentioned above).

Yeah, it's truely 'experimental'


EDIT: P.S If you are reading this... don't bother TVG Reset is a serial data stream, not a logic reset... OOPS!!

Reset Ground: J200 Pin 6 on TVG board
Reset line: J200 Pin 11 on TVG board Page 3-102

I'll have to check the wiring... pull to ground isn't resetting TVG board. GRRR

Well my experience seems to bear out what's beeing discussed here. After having initial success getting listings with the Pal "blended" in with the antenna signal to the 3410a, it appears I am no longer getting any listings.

The 3410a hasn't locked up or given any errors, and still shows 0x3 as my host channel. But the guide isn't filling in beyond the intial day or so I received. last night i tried a quick unplug on the 3410a and re-entered 721 (62.1) into the Pal to seem if that would start anything again. A quick check this morning didn't seem show anything different in the listings.

I would also like to hear from the horse's mouth, just what data they are sending out over the legacy stream in terms of zip codes, i.e., for each TVGOS version, is it sending the same data that it USED to send via the analog stations, PLUS the data for the substitute zip codes? Specifically, does it send the data that it USED TO BROADCAST for the real zip codes, and is this (as well as the data for the substitute zip codes) converted to precisely the same format as the data used to have?

I think it is really ridiculous that we have to jump through hoops to find out really basic info, when we have in the PAST had bad experiences with the analog data when it had defects that prevented our units from getting program info properly, and those problems were never acknowledged...

In addition to wanting to know explicitly what info is being sent,
I'd like to know what the hard channel limit is for V7 as well. In the "answers" section on the TVGOS help site (now mostly defunct) it makes mention that V7 allows a limited number of channels and mostly has a "merged lineup", without any additional info.

I agree. It's ridiculous that's what has been figured out about the Pal and TVGOS transition over the last year has come out of people in the AVS forums time and effort, with no official info and updates. Just tell us what's going on!

having had limited success with the substitute-code configuration, with Pal output channel 3 going in via cable (no box), I've just changed back to my real zip code, leaving things the same otherwise.

A continuing problem is that the unit only seems to accept the data coming from the Pal for a brief period, regardless of which zip code I use, and in spite of the fact that the TV Guide accepts 3 as the host channel...

...On my other front, I split the Pal output and now have one branch joining with the antenna signal going into my Sony 250 (cf. here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16678071#post16678071)). That unit had gotten SOME listings after last Friday, but the amount seemed to have diminished over days - with the download record showing none for 2 full days - so I added in the Pal output.

Today I have COMPLETE listings for day 8, with the Sony now listing 3 as its host channel, and with NO digital downloads in its DL schedule (in the diagnostic screens)...amazing and a little disconcerting...but this is basically what the screens looked like just before Friday...a solid lock onto an analog channel despite the fact that it CAN get listings from digtal TVGOS...ironic, huh?

And remember that the Sony is v8...I wasn't even sure that the legacy data included v8...

I got no data off DTVPal either yesterday or today...

I'd contact them, but they'd say it's not Them (Macrovision).... Right!

Interesting.... I'm believing the Ram on the TVG board IS EEPROM....

I'm back on origional TVG board in Experimental unit... (And with it came channel settings and data!) Gonna try it back on ABC 7-0 (Off cable) to get it going again.... and try as main board reset to see if it clears the TVG lockup... (Main reset hopefully trips serial reset... I hope)....

I'm still looking for someone to try and decode the AM indicator light on display... soas to create a once a day signal to trip reset (as if, and when I get one).

Keeps me off the streets! :)!

Hi Jan,

I think you have a problem trying to pick up the AM indicator. From page 93 of the service manual it looks like the front panel (a DIGITRON HNV-12MM41T, which I can not find the pinout for) is matrixed. The clue is the "grid" and "anode" terminology. If this is true, the AM indicator is a combination of a grid line and an anode line. You could "and" the drive lines together, once you figure out which ones they are. You might be able to figure it out by grounding the lines one a a time through a resistor, and watching what segments of the display dim or go out. For goodness sake, use your test machine to do it! Once you determine the two that are on at the same time for AM, you are on your way.

One thing that may stop you is if it is scan multiplexed, so the lines are being scanned in sequence to light the segments. Picking up the pair for AM and getting the pulse when both lines are active, will be a timing issue which might require a counter chip to add to your adder. The data input to IC100 is serial, so you can't pick it up there either.

Sorry not to have any good news.

Albertso, I appreciate what your'e saying.... If the TVG Pull low reset had worked, that would have been a way to create a once-a-day reset from within the 3410a. However that would only be useful if I continued to receive TVG Data, Like I have up till this week...


I'm Not getting any data off DTVPal, CBS 2-0, or ABC 7-0 right now!
TVG Light is perpetually on... but no listing are being received... on all hosts... on multiple units...
Will be interesting to see if TVG locks up or not....
If it doesn't, VCR+ should continue to work....

And They're not changing anything........

Jan, What about just setting up a 24 hour timer and kicking out a reset pulse each day. Can be asynchronous with the real time, I would think.

I am getting packets by the hundred, but nothing goes into my listings. All data reports seem to indicate that all is well. Passes D* test and '852 screen shows incrementing data everywhere. Zip is correct; VBI channel is correct; All kinds of resets tried. I just don't know why nothing will propagate.

Frustration level = High!

Frustration level = High!
Albertso - the same for me...NO actual listings for my 3410a!

(So why is Jan getting listings, but we aren't...any idea what the difference is? I have tried this BOTH in my "test mode" (which, by the way WORKS for my Sony 250, which actually gets data via the Pal) AND in the mode where I have the Pal set up as per the manual...

I get different lineups for the two cases, because my test mode gives me the real channel numbers, whereas the manual lineup has the fake analog-style channel numbers, e.g., 151 for CBS 5.1. But, in either case, I get NO program listings into my 3410a...now a COMPLETELY empty grid!

Jan - any idea about the differences???

I WAS getting listings... Up till about 3 days ago.... Now I've got lots of TVG Data Lights, and no incoming data.... Presently I've got 2 on ABC 7-0, 1 on CBS 2-0, and 1 on DTVPal, and they ALL are doing same thing....

I Was getting listings.... Up till about 3 days ago.... Back when I posted...

"And They claim they're not changing anything........"

When TVG was locking up, it was preventing wife from using VCR+ on the 3410a....
So they are interconnected....

I just checked and I have no listings for Thursday and beyond. I have TWC Basic, cable yes, box no and the 3410A had been locked to 6 (WRGB, CBS). I found it had changed to 11 (WMHT, PBS). Both still have TVGOS in VBI on cable even though the analog broadcasts are gone. In the past 6 only had data on line 16, both fields, while 11 populated 13-16. Now 6 does the same. I've never gotten usable data from 11 and I suspect the multiple lines may be the problem.

I note two differences between the two stations' data. When I checked, several lines had framing pulses but no active data. Both feeds had the same inactive lines, but on opposite fields. Also, all of them look like SCTE 127 pulses on 6 but on 11 line 16 field 1 looks like closed caption pulses.

I reassigned a WMHT logo to 11. I'll leave the host channel on 11 for a day or two to see if I get anything. If not, I'll relock to 6 to see if that works better.

I wonder if sending TVGOS on the wrong field could confuse a receiver.

I wonder if sending TVGOS on the wrong field could confuse a receiver.

Yes, it would.... That was the problem in Chicago 3-4 years ago....
I know, I was involved in the repair!

Had a conversation with a MV manager....

Him stating that he's not heard from any other LG DVR user except me.

I requested they supply an email address.....

Jan;

check page 92 of the schematics at the top right.

there is a plug J116 ( Gemstar Interface connector) , that has a signal (pin 30) labeled G_RESET_M on the main circuit board .

Also there is another reference to it on page 96 ( Gemstar circuit). At the top right of the page is a note that says the G_RESET _M signal should be an open drain/ collector. At the bottom right is another connector, J101, which has the same pin 30 signal. I assume this is the other end of a 30 pin cable connecting the two plugs.

This appears to be Gemstar reset. Not sure if that is what you are really looking for though.

I had retired the 3410, but my 4200 went out last week ( powers up for about 1 second then dies) and I substituted the 3410 for it so that TV can still get digital cable (It has an ATSC tuner, not QAM). I have two tvs that don't have QAM digital tuners and that was one of the two. The 3410 has a channel lineup, but no program data. As long as I don't turn it off it never locks up with AV1 errors and the like. Not efficient but useable as a tuner, anyway, so for now it is always on.

Yes... That pin is the reset line I tried to pull low.... Doesn't do anything....
I'm assumeing that the reset is a serial command....

I've rebuilt a bunch of 4200 power supplies....Same Mod as 3410a applies....
Increase +3.3, and re-cap +5, and +12V

beware of leaky caps -- clean board if you find them.

I've been following the discussion about the TV guide for awhile now. I haven't really used my 3410A for over a year now. I actually have two of them. Haven't really had a set I wanted to use it with until this weekend

I bought & picked up my Panasonic Plasma TC-P54G10 Sunday from Best Buy.

Brought TV home Sunday and spent the day playing. Tried hooking up a LG 3410A through a DVI Hmdi combo but no dice. Had to use the components Red Blue Green wires, still a great picture. The Golf OPEN was stunning. Anyone else having trouble with DVI out to a HMDI?


I did have trouble sending the sound from the TV to my Onkyo receiver. The Cable sound went over the Optical-out fine, as did the LG3410A sound, but the BluRay DVD did not send any sound had to use the RCA red and white wires direct from DVD player to Onkyo. Still can't figure that one out.

But just love the Panasonic Plasma.

Reason I posted, I also am not getting any TV Guide at all.

Until someone figures out a solution, I guess I will just use this to watch local programing and if I record, will have to do it manually.

The time shifting is still working so will not have to suffer commercials at least.

Brought TV home Sunday and spent the day playing. Tried hooking up a LG 3410A through a DVI Hmdi combo but no dice. Had to use the components Red Blue Green wires, still a great picture. The Golf OPEN was stunning. Anyone else having trouble with DVI out to a HMDI?


But just love the Panasonic Plasma.

HDMI is famous for not liking conversions... If HDMI thinks you are stealing video from a Copy Protected Source, it is designed to shut down.
Some flash to black, some just stay black & Don't pass signal.

My Mitsubishi DLP (Early one) does pass DVI to HDMI..... But Later ones won't.

Do a search on "HDMI Consortium" for more information....

I'll bet you'll stay YUV!

Jan,

It appears that you are correct about the serial bus. the 3410 is using the following I2C controller:

http://www.nxp.com/pip/PCF8584_4.html

It is IC 111 on page 81.

However, from the Pdf at the above link it looks like you can reset the I2C controller on pin 19, which might reset the entire system.

RESET/STROBE 19 I/O Reset input (open-drain); this input forces the I2C-bus controller into a predefinedstate; all flags are reset, except PIN, which is set. Also functions as strobe output.

Pin 19 is connected to TP 119 on the main board. Open collector note still applies.

I'm not sure as the system is OFF when you want to do the reset...but maybe , since the Gemstar board must always be active in that state.

Note : Just after I decided that LG was a company that I wouldn't support anymore, I decided to get a blue ray player. Not wanting to spend a lot, I have tried:
the Panasonic Bd 605 (costco BD60) (doesn't upscale reg DVD (even unencrypted) over component, limited network apps (Viera link?) except You Tube, is the slowest to load or use but has great blue ray and average dvd video quality. Returned.
Samsung BD1600 Best Buy (has Netflix and Pandora link) nice picture, wouldn't set up net except manually , and completely died after 15 minutes (no video out , won't read any disk, but still SEEMs to respond to remote), Bonus ALSO doesn't upconvert unencrypted DVD. Never got to even try a disk.
Returned.
LG BD370....Has NetFlix , You Tube and other streaming apps, found and setup network automatically, Fastest to boot and load, Great picture in BD and DVD video, and, bonus, got at the lowest price( $>50 lower than the others). Upconverts unencrypted DVDs to 1080i over component, and beats my Toshiba A2 in quality of that video. Its a keeper. Guess I'll go buy the 2 year warranty though, due to the experience with support from LG, if its reasonable.

...
LG BD370....Has NetFlix , You Tube and other streaming apps, found and setup network automatically, Fastest to boot and load, Great picture in BD and DVD video, and, bonus, got at the lowest price( $>50 lower than the others). Upconverts unencrypted DVDs to 1080i over component, and beats my Toshiba A2 in quality of that video. Its a keeper. Guess I'll go buy the 2 year warranty though, due to the experience with support from LG, if its reasonable.
so do you have it set up so Blu-ray goes out hdmi and ordinary DVDs out on component, or what? I saw a review that said it didn't do very well on upconversion, so I had crossed it off my list...am I wrong? Tony

Hi, It's great to see Jan and you guys solving this problem!
PLEASE HELP! I'm a old reader of Jans posts & a 3410 Hit the power reset guy, mostly when I race through the TVGOS menu to fast.

I've tried a few set up things with a Artec T3ARP-T in tvguide mode, instead of the DVTPAL-- that I presume it's the same box without the DTV reciever, and NO LST 3410A MENU UPDATES from OTA or Cable.

Have noticed, your not talking much about using t the, g-link cable that the converter box instructions requests to be plugged in, ---I don't have one and can't find one for sale,--- SO I mirrored converter box led light to 3410a remote control receiver, --- "IF" I DO NEED IT, WOULD THIS WORK LIKE A G-LINK CABLE? I would rather the info/signal comes from OTA converter/channel than it's g-link cable.

My old set up was OTA and Comacst cable only,no box, their version of analog converted from digital without TVGOS support, they can rent more boxes that way,, they have scrambled most QUAM HD except for the big 4, that I get on OTA,
anyway
I would like to receive TVGOS and record what I did in the past, so your blocker for channel 3 and/or 4 makes good sense, do I need G-Link cable with the channel 3 block/add in of converter channel 3, plus I don't know which ones to buy and where, and would like to get a TVGOS signal before blocking channel 3 and 4 to receive the converter signal.

Triyed 1. OTA only with line of sight g-link, and cable set up with converter cable box on OTA on channel 3, box set up said something about channel 9 reception but can't choose that in guide set up,

I have tried/used the message 653214741 guide search several times and quick power interruption reset , no help there either!

Could you PLEASE OUTLINE a couple of tests or a fix/solution for me?

PS --I'M NOT A Smart PERSON THAT CAN CHECK OR USE, THE DATA OR OTHER PORTS OR LOOK WHERE PACKETS ARE COMING FROM OR GOING TO

PS Jan the TV Orange County Chopper guys had 2 real old Indians, used a few parts of them and have a contact/helper with a lot of knoledge about them, a old tv show.

thanks,
R Johnsen

Had a conversation with a MV manager....

Him stating that he's not heard from any other LG DVR user except me.

I requested they supply an email address.....

I think all of us here would gladly give that guy an earful if we could!! PM me and I will happily give you my email address to give him!! You have probably already referred him here to AVS forum!

THANKS for being so persistent with these guys. They keep insisting it is the fault of our units but mine was functioning just fine prior to the end of January when all this analog to digital shenanigans first started. They promised they had a solution to our lack of data way back in October 2008 (See attachment below!) but they have so far failed to come through for us.

I have reset both my LG 3410a and my Philips HDRW720 according to Nick's instructions multiple times to no avail! My LG sees what may or not be an adequate amount of incrementing A and B packets via the G* test, but neither unit has had consistent listings since January! I am too far from the local CBS digital TVGOS for OTA reception so I am forced to rely on Comcast. Of course if Comcast is not getting the right data then I cannot possibly expect to either!

I sure hope this gets resolved soon. I REALLY miss my DVRs and the functionality I used to have. :(

Robin

No...I don't have HDMI on my 65" Mitsu...only component (2000 model).

So it goes out component ALLWAYS, and does upscale my Archive DVD disks to 1080i (Copy protection removed). The other two did NOT upscale a DVD to 1080i over component at all. Only Blue ray comes out 1080i and DVDs upscale ONLY on HDMI.

I did plug the others into HDMI sets (bedroom) and the upscale was not as good as what I saw out of this one.

RE: the G-link cable. I still have mine....tried it when I had the PAL and it was unable to control the PAL. The test to change channels on the PAL failed to do anything at all on the PAL when setting up the guide in Cable yes/ Cable box yes . The code it selected was Scientific Atlanta (008) but it didn't work at all.

So I still ended up uisng a RS universal 6 in 1 remote...the same SA code (008) that the 3410 tried, worked to control the PAL on it. Probably some incompatibility on the 3410 (whaat....SURPRISE!). Anyway, I had no luck with or without the G-link, and with or without cable yes, box yes or box no.

I never tried just using OTA for the 3410...there are only 12 channels and they are on basic cable anyway.

Thanks Scottxray! I'll look into that.

Yes, I did want to do a reset while box is off... I'll check into which power supply drives that IC, and see what happens!
Wouldn't it be nice?????

Of course then I'd have to come up with a once a day logic line.....

Thanks again... !!

Jan,

It appears that you are correct about the serial bus. the 3410 is using the following I2C controller:

http://www.nxp.com/pip/PCF8584_4.html

It is IC 111 on page 81.

However, from the Pdf at the above link it looks like you can reset the I2C controller on pin 19, which might reset the entire system.

RESET/STROBE 19 I/O Reset input (open-drain); this input forces the I2C-bus controller into a predefinedstate; all flags are reset, except PIN, which is set. Also functions as strobe output.

Pin 19 is connected to TP 119 on the main board. Open collector note still applies.

I'm not sure as the system is OFF when you want to do the reset...but maybe , since the Gemstar board must always be active in that state.

.

DEAR JAN
TOPIC TVGOS UPDATING

Can you comment on my post 4 below #6164 , about Artec box, g-link & the Indian guy, if you have a ideas or need clarification?

What set up are you getting any guide info on???

+ thanks Scott for the g-link post.

Off topic - , FYI -you 3410A guys, I did what I think is a creative power supply assist, two years ago, which really helped my weak power supply/resetting problems. I added a external power supply, turned on buy the board power or on the lead of the drive wire power, equates to blue-power on supply for the new quiet power supply -for it to power up , then I had it's power lead, power my hard drive, it was using alot of juice.
The mod. really helped and didn't have to replace/solder those capicitors (yet), even with a 500 gig Seagate! Detail hook up/wiring upon reqest.

Thanks Richard - no TVGOS updates yet -


PS Other info-recent test
Detail (if wanted) Now I'm only giving 3410a the converter box-set to TVGUIDE support, box using OTA input, and outputing it as to LG as a cable box-per direction,

my box type set to .001, on Channel 3, the other choices woulden't work as box can't broadcast on channel 2, per 3410a search for proper box request on channel 2.

It did tune to Channel 9 and allow 9 on guide menu on 3410a, as they said it would.
I'm using no g-link, but line of sight to remote control input.

So I am AGAIN trying this experiment with the 3410a to see whether I get the same analog-type (3-digit) lineup AND the zero listings I have ever since June 12 (regardless of my setup). For several days, I've had the 3410a set to my real zip code/OTA-only, which is also how I previously had my Sony 250. In that experiment with the Sony, I got normal v8 days 1,2,5,8 overnight downloads with host channel 3, demonstrating that the data from the Pal WORKS for the Sony. I then removed the Pal output from the joiner with the antenna going to my Sony, and it has resumed getting pretty-much full listings, but with some oddities (described in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16708739#post16708739) post, which describes the present experiment from the point of view of the Sony).

But I decided I wanted to makes changes to BOTH units in parallel, with both getting the same DTVPal output feed, to see AGAIN what happens. So again I have set the 3410a to Zip code 00005, but with the Pal output still simply joined with the antenna input to the LG ( just as it is also joined to the antenna signal going to the Sony). Anyway, I want to see 1) if I get the analog-style lineup as before, 2) whether that has KQED 9.1 (our principal and only high-def PBS channel in the SF area), and 3) to see again whether the 3410a gets NO listings, while the Sony IS getting listings.

This business with NO listings is very frustrating, because everything I see in the 3410a diagnostic menus suggests that the unit is getting good data from the Pal with then unit set to my real zip code - host channel is 3, A and B packets are seen at normal analog rate (as far as I can judge), next DL and other things look normal. So I just want to change things up again, to see if that helps. And if it doesn't, I want simultaneous evidence that the data coming from the Pal is WORKING for my Sony. I anticipate that I will see the same thing I saw before...3-digit analog lineup (with NO KQED) and NO listings...

I will report what happens, again...but if ANYONE has any idea how this can be happening, I'd sure like to hear it.

Thanks - Tony :)

Last week I tried a simelar hookup....
DTVPal in TVG mode, IR conect between 3410a and DTVPal, video from DTVPAL into Input 2... Cable Yes, Cablebox Yes...

Didn't work, but that could be due to fact that I am not getting ANY DATA now, from any configuration...

I can't comment on power supply upgrade, other than to guess it's only a +12 and +5 for the hard drive? 3.3V (Three of them) drives the CPU's, and that 3.3V & 3.9V supplies were the ones that I've seen that were drying out. But if that supply got you going, more power to you!

I've heard that other converter boxes will support TVG..... It's unfortunate that it didn't work any better than DTVPal... I wish something would work..

DEAR JAN
TOPIC TVGOS UPDATING

Can you comment on my post 4 below #6164 , about Artec box, g-link & the Indian guy, if you have a ideas or need clarification?

What set up are you getting any guide info on???

+ thanks Scott for the g-link post.

Off topic - , FYI -you 3410A guys, I did what I think is a creative power supply assist, two years ago, which really helped my weak power supply/resetting problems. I added a external power supply, turned on buy the board power or on the lead of the drive wire power, equates to blue-power on supply for the new quiet power supply -for it to power up , then I had it's power lead, power my hard drive, it was using alot of juice.
The mod. really helped and didn't have to replace/solder those capicitors (yet), even with a 500 gig Seagate! Detail hook up/wiring upon reqest.

Thanks Richard - no TVGOS updates yet -


PS Other info-recent test
Detail (if wanted) Now I'm only giving 3410a the converter box-set to TVGUIDE support, box using OTA input, and outputing it as to LG as a cable box-per direction,

my box type set to .001, on Channel 3, the other choices woulden't work as box can't broadcast on channel 2, per 3410a search for proper box request on channel 2.

It did tune to Channel 9 and allow 9 on guide menu on 3410a, as they said it would.
I'm using no g-link, but line of sight to remote control input.

I've given up on trying to use DTVPal according to how Macrovision says it should be hooked up:
"OTA antenna connected to the DTVPal, DTVPal in TVG mode connect to LG video in, LG TVG set up to use cable box, GLink cable going form LG to DTVPal (so it can control it)"

So I'm trying something else...

OTA antenna to 3x splitter:
Output of splitter goes to Antenna Input of 3410a
Input 1 of splitter goes to OTA antenna feed
Input 2 of splitter goes to DTVPal antenna input
Input 3 of splitter goes to DTVPal Output

Mixes CH3 into OTA feed.

No Input to cable in.

Cable NO

We'll try this and see what happens....

(WHY?) Well, during one of my calls to Macrovision, they told me that one of the issues with LG is that it cannot handle all the Icons that TVG is sending...

(So WHY NOT REMOVE THE ODDBALL Games?)

So, in case this has some merit, but selecting only OTA, MAYBE this will prevent lockups...

Ask me in 5-6 days...

Last week I tried a simelar hookup....
DTVPal in TVG mode, IR conect between 3410a and DTVPal, video from DTVPAL into Input 2... Cable Yes, Cablebox Yes...

Didn't work, but that could be due to fact that I am not getting ANY DATA now, from any configuration...Probably just a typo, and I see in your next message that you've moved on anyway, but did you really mean Input 2? As in A/V IN 2? I wouldn't expect that to work. I think the LG in Cablebox Yes mode looks only at A/V IN 1.

I've heard that other converter boxes will support TVG.....Just one - the Artec T3APR-T.

[QUOTE=Jan J;16709486
So I'm trying something else...

OTA antenna to 3x splitter:
Output of splitter goes to Antenna Input of 3410a
Input 1 of splitter goes to OTA antenna feed
Input 2 of splitter goes to DTVPal antenna input
Input 3 of splitter goes to DTVPal Output

Mixes CH3 into OTA feed.

No Input to cable in.

Cable NO

We'll try this and see what happens....

(WHY?) Well, during one of my calls to Macrovision, they told me that one of the issues with LG is that it cannot handle all the Icons that TVG is sending...

[/QUOTE]
? Jan - I don't understand the way you have described this...is it basically like my "test" setup? That is, the antenna split with a branch going to the Pal, and the other branch joining with the Pal output before going to the 3410a antenna input? That's what I've been trying (with my REAL zip code) for a week, and - as noted in my posts - all the diag menus in the 3410a indicate A and B packets, clock, 3 as host channel, etc, but even though I have all that and a lineup, I GET NO LISTINGS!?! I hope you do better...of course, you were getting listings before, but was that with a unit that also had cable going to it? (In which case, I think there's no telling where the listings were coming from...)

(As noted In my LAST post, I'm again trying this same setup, but with the substitute zip code in the 3410a, to once again get the 3-digit analog lineup - to see again whether THAT attracts any listings - I'm going around in circles, nothing works, even though the same setup going to my SONY (set for real zip code) definitely gets everything...channel 3 host, lineup, and listings...all from the Pal, with a lineup that includes both digital and analog normal OTA channels...I assume it still has analog channels, because the legacy data is what CABLE companies use to produce the TVGOS to go with their OTA channels...)

Cheers - Tony

Jan & Tony, please, keep up the effort!

The T3APR-T dosen't have some functions of your Pal but acting as the same box.

I tried all of your tests, and read all your posts from mid last summer.

2AM-10AM - only been able to get a clock update,

from OTA-CBS-Hou.11-1 on Channel 3 out, using 3410a cable input, cable-yes, box-no, gooney zip.

Wonder, if we sent a good tech at LG our boxes and a 3410, if he needs one, he could fight it too, possibally have some stroke with MV?

PS: I have found timeshift can be saved if you copy/edit before stopping it, it's handyier than setting a manual record.

PSS: JanJ I ran a extension cord from batt. back up to 3410, with a switch buy my bed, found all good returns @ 1 sec., haven't had to use it alot since powered the hard drive, but guess I will when TVGOS over fills the memory.

The T3APR-T doesn't have some functions of your Pal but acting as the same box.Can it be controlled by an IR blaster? If so, using what code?

Does it have event timers? A decent guide? How's the picture quality? Better than the Pal's? (At least not any worse, I hope.) How about the sensitivity?

I've got one coupon left to use before July 6th, so that's why I'm inquiring.

You guys under stand this better,
but a channel menu isn't there, as just allows a channel change from remote
-classifying them as the digital equivalant of the OTA dtv channels,

don't know about ir codes or balsters, but would blast LG support.

It's like a stripped down version of the PAL, wouldn't waste money, just get another updated coupon after ya'll figure it out or they make e'm work with new filmware boxes,

i've have a coupon left for15 days and would use it on a PAL, if you guys get PAL working on our LG's,

Artec sells a version of this with TVGOS built in for $129, -40, but doubt it'll run our 3410a's, get one and please say it works!

PS: Would be really mad if I had LG-TVGOS TVs in all 4 beadrooms!

tks, RJ

3 of 4 DVR's now locked to host 0x0, and frankly I don't know why. All are set for Cable Yes, Cablebox No.
One was locked to 7-0 cable, another to 2-0 cable, another locked to 3-0 DTVPal #1
All unlocked themselves and are now reporting host of 0x0.


and on experimental unit DVR#4, it's the one locked to 3-0 DTVPal #2 and the 3-way RF Splitter... with the DVR set for: Cable No. Presently locked to host 0x3. I think it is getting data -- and if it is, it's the first listings I've seen on any of them in 2-3 weeks.

Jan,

My unit is unlocking too. Will not hold a VBI channel, no matter if A/V 1 or ch 3. BTW, do you know what the 753 screen shows for A/V 1? The test screen shows A/V 1, but the 753 screen is showing a long hex number starting with 18000.

Thanks

Yeah we looked at that a few pages back, I seem to recall numbers were 18000 and 20000 for av1 & 2

3 of 4 DVR's now locked to host 0x0, and frankly I don't know why. All are set for Cable Yes, Cablebox No.
One was locked to 7-0 cable, another to 2-0 cable, another locked to 3-0 DTVPal #1
All unlocked themselves and are now reporting host of 0x0.


Jan:

I still wonder if your problems, at least your attempts to lock to 3-0 using the DTVPal, are due to Chicago not having a channel 3. One reason I wonder is my DVR will initially only search 2 digit channels for TVGOS data. You can't even enter a 3 digit channel number with the remote. After a reset it first finds data on channel 11, my CBS affiliate. It starts getting listings but all the listed channels are 3 digits so 11 isn't amongst them. The DVR quickly drops 11 as the host channel and the next day will have found 211 which is in the listings. I'm wondering if the same thing is happening to you. The 3410a starts getting listings but there is no "3" amongst them. The TVGOS firmware in the 3410a now culls the list of valid host channels to include only those in your listings, sees that "3" isn't one of them and starts searching those in the list instead never to try "3" again. That may be an efficiency thing. Basically TVGOS says "don't search channels you don't have". You mentioned once that a TVG tech told you the signal would have to be inserted on certain channels such as 2 or 7. I don't think this is because TVGOS only works on certain channels, it's because it only works on channels in your area for instance 2 and 7 in Chicago. Even if you added a fake "3" to your channel lineup the TVGOS data wouldn't have any listings for it so I'm guessing it would still be ignored. Since you should get listings for 2 and 7 you could insert the DTVPal output on one of these channels and I'm guessing the 3410a would be happy and would quit dropping the host channel.

This may have been covered before so please forgive me if I'm rehashing an old idea. It's very hard for me to keep all the past testing straight.

Phil

You have a valid point, Phil.... But then, now that analog stations are off the air...
How does one get data if there are no TVG channels?

If DTVPal is a valid device.... And since TVG (Now Macrovision) was the ones who told me about TVG and DTVPal (Echostar TR40) nearly 2 years ago, and they knew it output on Ch3 or Ch4...... because they tested it, and knew that analog was going away.....

Then why not allow channel 3 and 4 to be valid TVG chanels?

Actually, at this point, what other choices do we have?

Do you want to delegate the 3410 to be an analog composite only recording device, when it contains an ATSC tuner?

I'm willing to give up TVG and fall back on VCR+ but this involves a TVG that doesn't lock up in 2-3 days...

A few days ago I flat our asked Macrovision if they had an LG3410 so that can see firsthand the 'handiwork' that they had developed, and they said "No".

I'm just trying to find a way to use the product.... and at this point, it USED to work... until about last September. Why they haven't received data for past 2-3 weeks is another wrinkle that I don't understand.... And it seems that I'm not alone with my concerns and issues....
The only thing that is unique in my instance is I have Multiple units ALL ACTING IDENTICALLY. It's hard to write off multiple units doing the same thing simultaneously....

Since resetting to zip code 00005 yesterday, my unit lost its host channel (which was 3), but today it regained it and the unit accepted some A and B packets, but hasn't changed the lineup yet (and, of course, still no listings)...we'll see what I have tomorrow...

(My Sony, to whose antenna input I joined the DTVPal output yesterday, is now solidly locked onto 3 as the host channel, and showing records of B and C packets accepted from this host...has solid listings,with no change in the lineup - as expected because I didn't change the TV Guide setup from real zip code, OTA only...)

I'm not really optimistic about getting listings in the 3410a, since it has consistently failed, regardless of the setup in the TV Guide...

Addendum re philcstuart's suggestion...I'm not sure what to make of it, but - although I'm trying to get the 3-digit lineup again right now - I have mainly tried my real zip code, and have the Pal output on channel 3, and the unit DOES lock onto 3 as host, and THERE IS A CHANNEL 3 in the listings I get this way, but it's from Sacramento, so I actually have NO signal from there. just from the Pal. And when I try this same setup with my SONY, as I've noted, the unit DOES lock onto channel 3 as host, with a normal lineup, and WITH listings...

No data yet

Clock update & Wiped my 90 channel line up I've had for years,

and MV only gave back - ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX - (Tony) listed with cable station #s-3-digit lineup,- and channel 3 shows up in listings as CBS.

-----------
Current set up - Artec T3APR-T, on OTA-CBS-Hou.11-1 on Channel 3 out, using LG3410a cable input, cable-yes, box-no, goofy zip code on LG.
----------

Any comment/help on this?
I'm pointing Artec led at LG face hoping it's communicating like a g-link, even if it does work, is it a one way link? Cable box set up in our TVGOS is asking us to use G-link cable too, do ya'll still dismiss the need of it?

FYI - (Tony & Jan)
My T3APR-T doesn't seem to auto seach for TVGOS station support or I think it broadcasts it on channel 9, which I can't recieve, unless I use cable box (yes/on) in set up, I had to tune to CBS then turn tv guide support on.
Could your PALs be doing the same?

----------
Wonder if the thousands of LG-TVs with internal HDDRs / TVGOS are updating?
Lotta of fun now, Rich

don't know about ir codes or blasters, but would blast LG support."IR blaster" is the same as "g-link".

Do you know if the LG's g-link controls the Artec - and what brand and type of device code it uses?

I, and others in the DVD Recorders sub-forum here, would be interested in knowing because our HDD/DVD recorders can use a "g-link/IR blaster" to control some external set-top boxes (just as the LG can).

Since we're not getting any TVGOS either, we can just change the channels on the box with the g-link/IR blaster by setting manual timers on the recorder.

It'd be a good choice for that purpose, because if the TVGOS conversion feature ever started working, that would be all the better. Possibly even better than the Pal, because some of our recorders don't change the channels on that correctly.

Don't mean to take this thread way off topic, but I figured I'd ask while I had your attention here, because there's no information on this model otherwise, anywhere else - it's too new, and hardly anybody has it yet. I'm just digging for information on it, partly for myself, and partly to add to the discussions over there (and also the CECB forum). If you want, we can take this particular side-discussion to one of those other two forums - preferably the DVD Recorders one, in one of the TVGOS-related threads. Any information you may have on this box would be greatly appreciated over there.

Tony and Jan please read my previous post. Rich

"IR blaster" is the same as "g-link".
Do you know if the LG's g-link controls the Artec - and what brand and type of device code it uses?
I, and others in the DVD Recorders sub-forum here, would be interested in knowing because our HDD/DVD recorders can use a "g-link/IR blaster" to control some external set-top boxes (just as the LG can).
Since we're not getting any TVGOS either, we can just change the channels on the box with the g-link/IR blaster by setting manual timers on the recorder.
It'd be a good choice for that purpose, because if the TVGOS conversion feature ever started working, that would be all the better. Possibly even better than the Pal, because some of our recorders don't change the channels on that correctly.

Don't mean to take this thread way off topic, .


Ramm: Yes think this should be moved to a different forum,

I really believe the Artec box is a bare bones version of the DVTPAL, the G link, is over my head, but think g-link only gives/gets the LG info for the tvguide, not programming/recording commands, they are cheap dedicated boxes with a very crummy menu, under circumstances we sould get any g-link info from the converter box channel broadcast anyway.

Artec sells a better version of this box with TVGOS, built in, for $129, -40, that may give you the command capabilitys. Email them or try to download a manual.

I don't think our Pals or Artecs will offer any control your looking for, but I may be wrong.
If someone else reads this, they may know more.

Please say what forum we can answer/move to, As we are trying to fix what's wrong with our TVGOS broadcast!

Do you know if the LG's g-link controls the Artec - and what brand and type of device code it uses?According to the Artec T3APR-T manual (selected from here (http://artectv.com/Service_e/nl/home/manuals.asp.htm)), page 19, it looks like a Hamlin/Regal cable box. I've never heard of that and don't know if the LG supports it (never had occasion to set it up as cable box: yes, and the LG manual doesn't list the options).

Okey-doke. Thanks.

Artec sells a better version of this box with TVGOS, built in, for $129, -40, that may give you the command capabilitys. Email them or try to download a manual.Yeah, I saw that one, too. I was wondering if it was legit, or some kind of mistake in the ad, because I only saw it at one site - Meritline. In fact, it's not even listed on the Artec site, which makes me wonder about it's validity.

I'm sure plenty of people would be interested in that if it turns out to be valid. Hopefully they'll come out with more models like that.

What's cool is that it's coupon-eligible.

What happens if you don't have the Artec box, and you just enter the Substitute Zip Code into your device's TVGOS setup screen?

I haven't been following this forum for awhile, sorry, but I was wondering if someone has information on how to get the old Zenith HDR 230 to show TVGOS info. I have used this unit for years for OTA HDTV:confused:, and it has been reliable, though never showing program information. Since I can set the clock manually and program for a particular time slot, I never bothered to try implementing the TV Guide feature. Now with the changeover, I'd like to activate it if someone knows how.

According to the Artec T3APR-T manual (selected from here (http://artectv.com/Service_e/nl/home/manuals.asp.htm)), page 19, it looks like a Hamlin/Regal cable box. I've never heard of that and don't know if the LG supports it (never had occasion to set it up as cable box: yes, and the LG manual doesn't list the options).

LG 3410a Shows a Hamlin, in cable box set up, if you scroll down in box choices/type, but didn't work for me, no glink, or others with glink.

What happens if you don't have the Artec box, and you just enter the Substitute Zip Code into your device's TVGOS setup screen?

It can't read digital, a few cable were supporting on anologe feed, but that may corrupt now as MV isn't sending the right tvgos for 3410a and some other recorders.

Read posts buy JanJ and Avnstf over the last 6 months, and Complain to Macro Vision!

Then why not allow channel 3 and 4 to be valid TVG chanels?

I'm quite sure any channel is a valid TVG channel including 3 and 4 because surely some CBS station is using those frequencies. It just appears to me that once a TVGOS device receives listings it will only look for TVGOS data on channels it has listings for. Since Chicago doesn't have a channel 3 in its listings it starts looking for a new host channel even though it sees TVGOS data on 3. So in that way, 3 isn't a "valid" channel for Chicago.

Do you want to delegate the 3410 to be an analog composite only recording device, when it contains an ATSC tuner?

Oh gosh no, not at all. I'd really like to see you get this working.

I'm just trying to find a way to use the product.... and at this point, it USED to work... until about last September.

If I remember correctly, back in September you were getting TVGOS from analog cable channel 7. I'm sure you had a listing for that channel which would be one difference between then and now.

You said your DVR #4 has finally started getting listings again locked to channel 3. I'm hoping it stays locked for you. But if it doesn't... Do you have a channel 4 in your listings? If so maybe you could flip things so your DTVPal is inserted on 4 and your cable box is inserted on 3. That would at least tell you if having the channel appear in the listings is a requirement.

Phil

No data yet
-----------
Current set up - Artec T3APR-T, on OTA-CBS-Hou.11-1 on Channel 3 out, using LG3410a cable input, cable-yes, box-no, goofy zip code on LG.
----------

Any comment/help on this?
I'm pointing Artec led at LG face hoping it's communicating like a g-link, even if it does work, is it a one way link? Cable box set up in our TVGOS is asking us to use G-link cable too, do ya'll still dismiss the need of it?

FYI - (Tony & Jan)
My T3APR-T doesn't seem to auto seach for TVGOS station support or I think it broadcasts it on channel 9, which I can't recieve, unless I use cable box (yes/on) in set up, I had to tune to CBS then turn tv guide support on.
Could your PALs be doing the same?

----------
Wonder if the thousands of LG-TVs with internal HDDRs / TVGOS are updating?
Lotta of fun now, Rich
Rich...honestly, I'm having trouble parsing which questions you are asking...

For myself, I have only tried the fake zip code in my 3410a to see IF I get any data in that mode...but I don't really WANT that mode, because I want a TV Guide where the channels are linked to local DIGITAL signals directly, because I don't really want to use the 3410a as an ANALOG recorder.

But I have been unable to get ANY listings, either in the analog mode OR when I use my real zip code in the 3410a, and simply put the Pal in TVGOS mode and then use my simulated SA remote to tune the Pal to CBS 5.1, which (not only yields an analog PICTURE but also) ACTIVATES the conversion of the legacy TVGOS data to vbi in the analog PAL output...

The g-link is ONLY for enabling the 3410a to CONTROL what channel the Pal is tuned to, either to search for the digital TVGOS station, or to tune it to a station in the TV Guide lineup (e.g., in the 3410a) that one wants to watch or record in analog....I don't WANT this functionality, so I am primarily setting the 3410a in ITS standard mode, but with the Pal output joined to the antenna signal going to the 3410a...

But neither mode is working for me, so it's a moot point...

I haven't been following this forum for awhile, sorry, but I was wondering if someone has information on how to get the old Zenith HDR 230 to show TVGOS info.It doesn't have TVGOS - only a PSIP guide.

It can't read digital, a few cable were supporting on anologe feed, but that may corrupt now as MV isn't sending the right tvgos for 3410a and some other recorders.

Read posts buy JanJ and Avnstf over the last 6 months, and Complain to Macro Vision!

Thanks.

I haven't posted much lately, because I wanted to make sure of what I am about to post things have changed -- again....

The three 3410a units set for Cable Yes, Cablebox No, and locked to: CBS off Cable 2-0, ABC off Cable 7-0, and DTVPal mixed into cable 3-0.
About 5 days ago, all switched to host 0x0. One occasionally displays TVG light when powered down, other two don't.
None have ANY Listings, on any day in their TVG. All changed to host 0x0.
Wife reports one of them (not displaying TVG light) locked up TVG. and she hit the 1 second reset power button, which did all three. So I'm not 100% ceretain about lockups ----- yet...

Just as a review-- I tried their "Suggested" connection: Cable Yes, Cablebox Yes, Composite Video & audio feeds from DTVPal to input of 3410a, IR connection between DTVPal and 3410a----------- DIDN'T WORK....

Just as a review----The experimental 3410a set for cable NO with a 2nd DTVPal mixed into OTA Antenna feed, and on first overnight, it locked to the remaining "DTV Searchlight" OTA Analog feed CH32 (Host 0x20) and overnight got new OTA icons, and 3.5 days of data! This tells me OTA TVG still works with the 3410a!
Unfortunately, the "DTV Searchlight" will go off the air shortly, So I locked it to CH3, DTVPal. And Waited to see what whould happen.....

I'm Getting Data again! Intermittant, in a wierd way, but I'm getting data.
Looking at TVG from this unit, over the past 5-6 days, each day I get the following:

Day 1 (Today) full days data
Day 2 (Tomorrow) full days data
Day 3 No Listings
Day 4 No Listings
Day 5 Half day Listings
Day 6 No Listings
Day 7 Occasionally get some listings

This sequence follows from day to day... However, Day 5's and occasional Day 7's listings never propagate to Day 4 or 6 tomorrow, but get replaced with new data, but day 1 and day 2 always receive data....


And finally --- It is really interesting that OTA Delivered TVG still works, and Cable Delivered TVG doesn't...... But DTVPal mixed into OTA does work!!!

Discuss.......

Late yesterday the HDRW 720 and 3410A parted company. Both asked for a line-up confirmation after being turned on and TVGOS selected. Both froze when the same line-up selection was made.

After rebooting the HDRW 720showed Host ID as 0xF06; Host Channel as 0xD as it and the 3410A had both indicated earlier. It displays a new channel line-up with many channel number errors but correct listing info. Manual recordings are available from the TIMER button.

After rebooting the 3410A doesn't do anything when either TVGOS or VCR+ is selected. Its clock is approx. 30 secs. slow. The GUIDE and RESERVED lights remain off.

To reset the clock, I rebooted the 3410A and went the First Birthday route again. Clock was reset about 1 min. fast (it appeared to be slowly falling behind) and all available channels, digital and analog, were manually scanned and entered. Timer recordings and TVGOS couldn't be accessed. I turned the 3410A off.

When turned back on again the damned RESERVED light came on. OK fine; don't care, would use as a tuner which could manually record! So I left the 3410A on, thinking that it was time to give up on TVGOS.

After several hours, lo and behold, the RESERVED light went out!!! I hit the TVGOS button and found completely garbled listings apparently based on East Coast Time. Didn't care, didn't try to reset TVGOS, and turned 3410A off. At first the clock went screwy, not exactly 3 hours off, but close, but after a short time the clock reset to the correct time and the GUIDE light came on. I left the 3410A off for a couple of days and the GUIDE light went through its typical on and off cycles.

Today I turned 3410A on, accessed TVGOS and was offered a choice of line-ups, which usually happens after TVGOS is reset. After selecting the correct line-up I checked host info and it's the same as for the 720, 0xF06 and 0xD. When exiting TVGOS it nags about re-running Easy-Scan and TVGOS, but I'm not going to. If TVGOS works, fine, if it doesn't, that's OK too. I have no idea where the TVGOS data is coming from. I get Comcast's analog cable feed from Seattle's OTA digital stations.

Jan thanks for news, will be waiting for any updates!
I often recieved strange days on schedual but at least YOU got some data!
I'll recheck your (mixed) set up in your earlier posts,
Wonder how you got a anologe feed 32 from OTA or PAL?

Tony, think broadcast comes to icon/station #s, If you get data for a anolog or cable channel, change the channel #, in channel set up to a digital-hd you recieve, and you'll still get the data + recieve/record HD. If your getting data please repost your set up.


experimental 3410a set for cable NO with a 2nd DTVPal mixed into OTA Antenna feed, and on first overnight, it locked to the remaining "DTV Searchlight" OTA Analog feed CH32 (Host 0x20) and overnight got new OTA icons, and 3.5 days of data! This tells me OTA TVG still works with the 3410a!
Unfortunately, the "DTV Searchlight" will go off the air shortly, So I locked it to CH3, DTVPal. And Waited to see what whould happen.....

I'm Getting Data again! Intermittant, in a wierd way, but I'm getting data.
Looking at TVG from this unit, over the past 5-6 days, each day I get the following:

Day 1 (Today) full days data
Day 2 (Tomorrow) full days data
Day 3 No Listings
Day 4 No Listings
Day 5 Half day Listings
Day 6 No Listings
Day 7 Occasionally get some listings

This sequence follows from day to day... However, Day 5's and occasional Day 7's listings never propagate to Day 4 or 6 tomorrow, but get replaced with new data, but day 1 and day 2 always receive data....


And finally --- It is really interesting that OTA Delivered TVG still works, and Cable Delivered TVG doesn't...... But DTVPal mixed into OTA does work!!!

Discuss

...
Just as a review----The experimental 3410a set for cable NO with a 2nd DTVPal mixed into OTA Antenna feed, and on first overnight, it locked to the remaining "DTV Searchlight" OTA Analog feed CH32 (Host 0x20) and overnight got new OTA icons, and 3.5 days of data! This tells me OTA TVG still works with the 3410a!
Unfortunately, the "DTV Searchlight" will go off the air shortly, So I locked it to CH3, DTVPal. And Waited to see what whould happen.....

I'm Getting Data again! Intermittant, in a wierd way, but I'm getting data.
Looking at TVG from this unit, over the past 5-6 days, each day I get the following:

Day 1 (Today) full days data
Day 2 (Tomorrow) full days data
Day 3 No Listings
Day 4 No Listings
Day 5 Half day Listings
Day 6 No Listings
Day 7 Occasionally get some listings

This sequence follows from day to day... However, Day 5's and occasional Day 7's listings never propagate to Day 4 or 6 tomorrow, but get replaced with new data, but day 1 and day 2 always receive data....

And finally --- It is really interesting that OTA Delivered TVG still works, and Cable Delivered TVG doesn't...... But DTVPal mixed into OTA does work!!!

Jan - what zip code is the 3410a set for, real or substitute?

And is the channel lineup real or the 3-digit analog equivalent?

Thanks - Tony

It doesn't seem to matter what zip code I put in any more...I see A and B packets (but the guide light does not remain on when it is supposed to), and I get no listings...

(My setup is back to the one discussed in the link below)

PS I won't be making any more changes in the next 12 days, since I'm going on a trip at the beginning of the week...

Jan - what zip code is the 3410a set for, real or substitute? Jan Answers: REAL Zipcode 60076

And is the channel lineup real or the 3-digit analog equivalent?
I received 2-1, 5-1, 7-1, 9-1,9-2, etc....
Am I to assume the 3 digit analog equivalent is the cable channel numbers?
Cable channels don't work in "Cable No"

Thanks - Tony

It doesn't seem to matter what zip code I put in any more...I see A and B packets (but the guide light does not remain on when it is supposed to), and I get no listings...

(My setup is back to the one discussed in the link below)

PS I won't be making any more changes in the next 12 days, since I'm going on a trip at the beginning of the week...


I'm waiting to see what happens too!

At this point, I'm using OTA and Cable on 3 DVR's: Cable Yes, Cablebox No. Zipcode 60076. DTVPal#1 in TVG mode is mixed into Channel 3 on Cable feeds.
Origonally locked to CBS on Cable 2-0 (Host 0x2) on one DVR, ABC on Cable 7-0 (0x7) on a second DVR, and DTVPal 3-0 (0x3)on third DVR. All 3 DVR's dropped those hosts, and are now at host 0x0. Occasional TVG light on one unit, NO LISTINGS AT ALL ON ANY OF THESE 3 DVR's. Wife Successfully using VCR+ on these units for OTA and Cable recordings... Just checked TVG... DVR2 locked up going to TVG, had to be power cycled. DVR1 & 3 went into TVG.

One DVR: Cable No. Zipcode 60076. DTVPal#2 in TVG mode
OTA antenna, DTVPal Input, DTVPal Output each going into ouput of 3 way splitter
Input to 3 way splitter going into 3410a OTA antenna Input.. (Nothing going into Cable input of 3410--Doesn't matter -- "Cable No" mode disables Cable feeds from Channel Edit and EZ Scan).
As of 9PM Saturday Listings for days 1,2,5,7. No listings for days 3,4,6. However, it locked up (Invalid A/V Recording) just now.. Power cycle got TVG & listings as posted.

NO LISTINGS AT ALL ON ANY OF THESE 3 DVR's. Wife Successfully using VCR+ on these units for OTA and Cable recordings...

Just to clarify, am I correct in interpreting your post to mean that TVGOS displays a grid showing 'no listings' for each channel and not the mostly black 'no data' screen and that 0x0 host channel is shown on the data screen?

Just to clarify, am I correct in interpreting your post to mean that TVGOS displays a grid showing 'no listings' for each channel and not the mostly black 'no data' screen and that 0x0 host channel is shown on the data screen?

I'm saying that the 3 DVR's were set for Cable Yes, Cablebox No, Had Both OTA and Cable feeds connected, and had one was locked for CBS 2-0 off cable, one was locked to ABC 7-0 off cable, and one was locked for DTVPal 3-0 off cable (DTVPal mixed into cable), and all three suddenly stopped receiving data, and on each of the 3 on their own, the Host swtiched from what it was locked to -- to Host 0x0, and when I hit TVG on the 3410a, all I see are NO LISTINGS on each of the day's TVG Listings.

AND I BLAME MACROVISION FOR THIS.... As it USED TO WORK..

P.S. VCR+ when programmed to record a show, WILL NOT DO SO, IF TVG LOCKS UP!!

THANKS, MACROVISION!!!

At this point, I'm using OTA and Cable on 3 DVR's: Cable Yes, Cablebox No. Zipcode 60076. DTVPal#1 in TVG mode is mixed into Channel 3 on Cable feeds.
Origonally locked to CBS on Cable 2-0 (Host 0x2) on one DVR, ABC on Cable 7-0 (0x7) on a second DVR, and DTVPal 3-0 (0x3)on third DVR. All 3 DVR's dropped those hosts, and are now at host 0x0. Occasional TVG light on one unit, NO LISTINGS AT ALL ON ANY OF THESE 3 DVR's. Wife Successfully using VCR+ on these units for OTA and Cable recordings... Just checked TVG... DVR2 locked up going to TVG, had to be power cycled. DVR1 & 3 went into TVG.

One DVR: Cable No. Zipcode 60076. DTVPal#2 in TVG mode
OTA antenna, DTVPal Input, DTVPal Output each going into ouput of 3 way splitter
Input to 3 way splitter going into 3410a OTA antenna Input.. (Nothing going into Cable input of 3410--Doesn't matter -- "Cable No" mode disables Cable feeds from Channel Edit and EZ Scan).
As of 9PM Saturday Listings for days 1,2,5,7. No listings for days 3,4,6. However, it locked up (Invalid A/V Recording) just now.. Power cycle got TVG & listings as posted.
well, I'm encouraged that you are getting some listings on your straight OTA unit...but the way things seem to vary so much among your units - and my own experience - indicate to me that Microvision has things screwed up with the legacy data (as well as other things), and they ae continuing to screw around.

It seems to me that your OTA only unit is set up the same as mine (real zip code/no cable), but mine has gotten NO listings since June 12.

On the other hand, when the DTVPal output is fed to my Sony 250 - which otherwise gets its listings from CBS 5.1 - it locks onto the Pal output (channel 3) almost immediately as host channel and gets rid of the digital DL schedule, substituting a purely analog DL schedule, AND gets listings...

except that after I attached the Pal output to the joiner going to my Sony on Wednesday, on Thursday I saw full listings over night, but on Friday I had NO day 8 listings added, and they returned on Saturday. It seems that the legacy data my Sony was getting was being turned on and off...more screwing around is how I interpret it.

But what I can't figure out is how it would happen that my Sony gets good analog TVGOS data via the Pal, but my 3410a doesn't. It seems to me that if the Pal is converting data properly for ONE unit, it would likely mean that it is converting ALL the vbi data properly. The only other sources of difference are my 2 units (but both of them worked fine on analog data up to June 12) and the data of the legacy stream itself.

So I think that's what we're back to...Microvision has screwed up and is continuing to screw around...

Refer to page 3-98 of service manual.

Based on info..... Tried the reset on IC148 (Pin 25 to ground). This is also IC 149 reset--- R625-C640 junction.

I did a test of this, and it DOES reset TVG, but it also resets the entire box!

Not what we're looking for.. We're looking to Reset TVG board only...

...when I hit TVG on the 3410a, all I see are NO LISTINGS on each of the day's TVG Listings.

AND I BLAME MACROVISION FOR THIS.... As it USED TO WORK..

P.S. VCR+ when programmed to record a show, WILL NOT DO SO, IF TVG LOCKS UP!!

THANKS, MACROVISION!!!

If there's a grid with NO LISTINGS, VCR+ for manual timers still works. If there's a largely black screen which states NO DATA, VCR+ probably won't work and I'm asking in order to verify whether timers can be set on 3410A with no TVGOS whatsoever. I don't believe so on the 3410A.

--

Re:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16731265#post16731265

I mapped 3410A's apparently functional TVGOS for all digital channels but when the GUIDE light didn't come on realized that analog hosts must be accessed so then mapped all simulcast digital OTA channels to Comcast's analog equivalents. I don't know the values that 0xF06 or OxD represent. Am waiting to see what or if anything happens now.

--

Regarding MACROVISION's TVGOS:

While TV's benefit from free guide data they generally remain on for only a fraction of a day. Current DVRs and DVD recorders no longer employ TVGOS for good reason. They're most useful when they remain on 24/7. TVGOS is intrinsically not the best guide system for DVR's and HDD recorders.

For me TVGOS' redeeming factor is manual QAM mapping. If it works, fine, but if not, that's OK too, as I stated earlier. I've compiled a list of all QAM equivalents so can enter QAM numbers directly if necessary. Interestingly 3410A requires actual QAM numbers for its older tuner while other DVRs use different PSIP generated virtual channel numbers.

Although I can watch 3410A directly through DVI for its superb picture quality, TVGOS only works with resolutions no higher than 480p. So I also supply 3410A's output via 480i Component to an HDRW 720 and then to an older ReplayTV 4532 set for Bypass On for no added time delay and use RTV's excellent EPG to check program data in realtime. Requires a bit of button pushing to select the proper formats but every set-up requires some compromises!

I'm finding with a host of 0x0 we CAN use VCR+ for programmed recordings. BUT...
If TVG Locks up, then the Scheduled VCR+ recording doesn't record.

These units worked up till last September, when they became Very Irratic.
DTVPal worked, but had the 2-3 day lockup.... Until 3-4 weeks ago, when they stopped working in unison.
The settings are the same..... I'm betting someone changed something at Macrovision end....

Macrovision has been informed --- Multiple times--- since last September, and also since the 3-4 week ago issue where all listings ceased...

They claim they haven't done anything, and all the problems are LG... I asked them to prove it, and all I got was a conference call where they stated their opinions, and I stated the fact that MULTIPLE UNITS changed Simultaneously.
I've offered to retrieve data for them at my house, and that was refused.
I even asked them for a code to disable TVG, so that we could continue with VCR+ They said there was none.

I'm continuing to test to find a way to use the LG without TVG altogether, or with TVG and reduced features....
At present, I still think the problem is Squarely in Macrovisions court.... It Used to work, and now Multiple DVR's fail the same way!

If there's a grid with NO LISTINGS, VCR+ for manual timers still works. If there's a largely black screen which states NO DATA, VCR+ probably won't work and I'm asking in order to verify whether timers can be set on 3410A with no TVGOS whatsoever. I don't believe so on the 3410A.!

JanJ sorry for my interupting your falling and tony post's, pleases keep us updated!

Fallingwaters: What converter box are you testing? A DVT-PAL or Artec T3APR-T?: - The 3410 timed recording works if set to recived channles, modified in channel set up, nothing to do with AUX DVR-clock/recordings, I'll/we'll give you info about programming your DVRs, that will work best if sch./data is filled in on 3410a, in the past,3410s clock could be be reset, if, there are no schedued recordings, but seems, maybe not now, wiith the new schedual locked in.

NOW, can we please pause, unless you guys have a working box/data reception with set up changes for a DVT-PAL or Artec T3APR-T,

How about

Let's get our TVGOS/DATA working
with info from JanJ & Avnstf,

or add a contribution concerning 3410a recieving TVGOS

Macrovision has been informed --- Multiple times--- since last September, and also since the 3-4 week ago issue where all listings ceased...

They claim they haven't done anything, and all the problems are LG... I asked them to prove it, and all I got was a conference call where they stated their opinions, and I stated the fact that MULTIPLE UNITS changed Simultaneously.

I'm continuing to test to find a way to use the LG without TVG

Should we complain? Now or Later? MVs' phone or Email?

I'm continuing to test to find a way to use the LG without TVG altogether, or with TVG and reduced features....

Without TVGOS LG's 3410A is an excellent QAM/ATSC/NTSC tuner which can record manually and can edit the recordings. With no TVGOS timer recordings apparently can't be scheduled.

Good luck in dealing with Macrovision/Gemstar; I doubt they have any incentive to resolve problems resulting from the analog to digital conversion short of a class action suit.

BUT WAIT! (a tribute to Billy Mays)

As reported earlier, I remapped OTA simulcast channels to their Comcast analog equivalents and the GUIDE light has come on again! Where is the guide info coming from? Has Macrovision/Gemstar made a deal with cable companies? Stay tuned!

Fallingwater: What converter box are you testing? A DVT-PAL or Artec T3APR-T?:

For me, perhaps temporarily, TVGOS has begun to work again without any kind of converter or STB box. The 3410A is connected to an OTA indoor antenna aimed toward Vancouver, BC and to a coax from Comcast Cable which provides Seattle OTA channels in both analog and digital formats. The current TVGOS display doesn't provide Vancouver OTA info but TVGOS is set for: cable, yes; STB no.

I've got a Sony DHG HDD500 using CIVT-DT Vancouver, BC OTA ch. 32 as a digital source for TVGOS data. The 3410A can receive 3 Vancouver digital stations but can't receive OTA analog from Canada when cable is connected.

- The 3410 timed recording works if set to received channels, modified in channel set up, nothing to do with AUX DVR-clock/recordings, I'll/we'll give you info about programming your DVRs, that will work best if sch./data is filled in on 3410a, in the past, 3410's clock could be reset, if, there are no schedued recordings, but seems, maybe not now, with the new schedule locked in.

I don't understand exactly what you mean, but 3410A's clock can always be reset by using the 'First Birthday' factory reset procedure, which also resets the 'RESERVED' recording glitch.

can always be reset by using the 'First Birthday' factory reset procedure, which also resets the 'RESERVED' recording glitch.

Thanks for your input, good for you,
it's great you are getting data, we're not, unless, from TVGOS converter boxes,
as stated some citys broadcast TVGOS from cable, or, a left working anolog channel, hope it's from cabale, as GOV. is selling all open channelss for 19 billion, if, you get any ota converter box, please post detailed set up,

if you need, or want to, buy a $25, tvgos data support box.,
or

Please let them figure our TVGOS problems out.

After we get data, I'll ask Tony about a b-day/format reset, no reply wanted from me.

MODERATOR, PLEASE HELP! FALLINGWATER & I TO MOVE, TO A DVR-RECORDER SITE, UNTIL HE/I GETS OR GIVES, DIGITAL BOX TVGOS INFORMATION, ABOUT HIS/MY 3410A, CONVERTER BOXES FOR RECORDING to other devices.

My 3410A just started getting data again. TVGOS was non-functional since around the time of the digital conversion and was flakey before that.

The question is where is the data coming from; will it last, and will other areas begin to see the return of analog based TVGOS?

If converter boxes can be useful, by all means, go for it! I bought a DTV Pal but haven't used it.

I'll post updates when anything appears to change for better or worse.

The question is where is the data coming from;

Reading your prior post I would say your cable channel 13.
0xD (hex) = 13 (decimal).

Selecting cable yes, it will only look on the cable input for a host.

Selecting cable no, it will only look on the antenna input for a host.

Selecting cable yes, box yes, it will look for input on A/V1.

They claim they haven't done anything, and all the problems are LG...

Jan:

You seem to know quite a few folks that loan you 3410a's on occasion. Do you know anyone with a non-LG TVGOS device that will loan it to you? It would be interesting to see if it has the same problem. If it did it would be hard for Macrovision to blame that on LG. If it didn't, that would be interesting too.

Jan:

You seem to know quite a few folks that loan you 3410a's on occasion. Do you know anyone with a non-LG TVGOS device that will loan it to you? It would be interesting to see if it has the same problem. If it did it would be hard for Macrovision to blame that on LG. If it didn't, that would be interesting too.


HE & TONY SEEM TO BE GETTING SOME DATA ON 3410as
Fyi - for now, read THEIR (old) posts

My 3410A just started getting data again. TVGOS was non-functional since around the time of the digital conversion and was flakey before that.

The question is where is the data coming from; will it last, and will other areas begin to see the return of analog based TVGOS?

If converter boxes can be useful, by all means, go for it! I bought a DTV Pal but haven't used it.
.

As stated
We/most readers, in our towns, aren't getting any OTA anolog support or Cable anolog, TVGOS support,

Hope you and all others, without problems, continue to get TVGOS, in your town, without any help from this forum!

It's all mixed up, remember the old hd-ready tvs, we bought a lot of these 3410s for them, and MacroVision can tell you where your signal is coming from.

We unlucky people have found that CBS-Digital is sending tvgos info to our tvgos decoder boxes


Can we proceed, with the smart guys, pal-artec OTA Digital broadcast TVGOS support conversations?

sorry - a DTVPal converter box set up

QUOTE
BY JANJ
Just as a review-- I tried their "Suggested" connection: Cable Yes, Cablebox Yes, Composite Video & audio feeds from DTVPal to input of 3410a, IR connection between DTVPal and 3410a----------- DIDN'T WORK....

Just as a review----The experimental 3410a set for cable NO with a 2nd DTVPal mixed into OTA Antenna feed, and on first overnight, it locked to the remaining "DTV Searchlight" OTA Analog feed CH32 (Host 0x20) and overnight got new OTA icons, and 3.5 days of data! This tells me OTA TVG still works with the 3410a!
Unfortunately, the "DTV Searchlight" will go off the air shortly, So I locked it to CH3, DTVPal. And Waited to see what whould happen.....

I'm Getting Data again! Intermittant, in a wierd way, but I'm getting data.
Looking at TVG from this unit, over the past 5-6 days,
END QUOTE

I'm trying this tomorrow, as my last 4 setups with Artec T3APR-T have not recived any data.

Update:
No new information -- Review:
3 units set for cable yes, cablebox no, still not getting host or listings, but TVG light remains on. I'm back to 1 second power interrupt every 3 days to allow VCR+ commands to work. Wife informs me this is successful for OTA HD or Cable Analog recordings.

One unit set for Cable NO, still locked to DTVPal host on CH 3-0 (mixed into OTA rf with 3x1 splitter as documented above a few posts). Still getting listings on Day1 (Today) Day2, Day 4, Sometimes day 5, Day 6. Tomorrow listings will be same days as today--in that day 3, sometimes 5 do not display {day6 does not propagate to day 5}.
TVG recordings still work, and lockups take place after 3 or so days (Still to 'new' a configuration to be precise on this yet).

Beginning of next week I'll forward this information to Macrovision again, to get my monthly rejection.

After we get data, I'll ask Tony about a b-day/format reset, no reply wanted from me.

If you don't know what a 'First Birthday' reset is you should learn before doing anything further regarding 3410A's TVGOS. Search this thread.

MODERATOR, PLEASE HELP! FALLINGWATER & I TO MOVE, TO A DVR-RECORDER SITE, UNTIL HE/I GETS OR GIVES, DIGITAL BOX TVGOS INFORMATION, ABOUT HIS/MY 3410A, CONVERTER BOXES FOR RECORDING to other devices.

Your above request is extroardinarily self-centered and discourteous to me. While a converter box may or may not enable 3410A's TVGOS functionality, depending on a user's location and other factors, it's certainly not the only way. These HDTV recorder threads are for all users of a recorder in the thread title and not just one subset of users.

The 3410A was probably the most quixotic hi-def recorder ever sold. It's an early digital transition product with serious flaws and a few exceptional virtues. It's worth using with or without TVGOS.

Reading your prior post I would say your cable channel 13.
0xD (hex) = 13 (decimal).

Selecting cable yes, it will only look on the cable input for a host.

Selecting cable no, it will only look on the antenna input for a host.

Selecting cable yes, box yes, it will look for input on A/V1.

Thanks; ch.13 is the local Fox affiliate. Fox used to be associated with Gemstar before Macrovision bought Gemstar in 2008. Wonder if there's a connection?

Analog hosting of TVGOS data used to be provided by CBUT-TV, OTA ch. 2 in Vancouver, BC, the local CBC affiliate, but I haven't been able to get analog TVGOS from CBUT since before the US's digital transition. CITV-DT, ch. 32-1, is supplying digital TVGOS, which is why I bought a DTV Pal+. Now that TVGOS has begun working again that project is on hold.

How do you think 0xF06 relates to hex?

Warning to all about First Birthday's..... (This is still in the 'assumption' stage, but if I'm right......)

In the past 2 months, I have not seen one channel list offered, even when I force to a new host channel.

Furthermore, When I made the radical change from Cable Yes, Cablebox No.... To Cable NO (OTA Only) data received into existing OTA Plus Cable Icon lists... No Channel Lists were downloaded to select from.

From this, I'm wondering if a First Birthday should be used only in extreme circumstances... Because if no Channel lists are downloaded to select from, how are you going to get Icons with which to get listings on?

I'm not 100% certain, but I have not seen a channel list for 3 or more months, which corresponds to the 2-3 month 'change' that I've griped about often...

IF ANYONE gets prompted for a channel list, Please post so.... I'm wondering if this is one of the 'wonderful' changes we've been given lately...

Since First Birthday erases all Icons, until we know it's possible to download a fresh list, I'd be a bit afraid to do a 'First Birthday', not knowing if I could get a chanel list afterward.....

How do you think 0xF06 relates to hex?

I assume that is the value of the HOST ID line right above Host Chan correct? If so I have never known of any significance placed to it.

VBI Chan value is always the 'currently tuned channel'.

Although I can watch 3410A directly through DVI for its superb picture quality, TVGOS only works with resolutions no higher than 480p.

I'm not following you here. I've always had full access to TVGOS in all resolutions up to 1080i. The difference is quite noticeable as you would expect.

However the low level diagnostic menu to perform 'first birthday' requires I use a composite (rca yellow or s-video) connection. I use the front panel 'display format' button and change to video.

If you don't know what a 'First Birthday' reset is you should learn before doing anything further regarding 3410A's TVGOS. Search this thread.

Your above request is extroardinarily self-centered and discourteous to me. While a converter box may or may not enable 3410A's TVGOS functionality, depending on a user's location and other factors, it's certainly not the only way. These HDTV recorder threads are for all users of a recorder in the thread title and not just one subset of users.

The 3410A was probably the most quixotic hi-def recorder ever sold. It's an early digital transition product with serious flaws and a few exceptional virtues. It's worth using with or without TVGOS.


I submit, that currently, I'm being very unsympathetic, about other functions/operations of 3410a's,

Very few people are getting TVGOS, like in your town, sorry to advocate for TVGOS help and being mean to you, I'm wasting fotum time with this trivia, I would, very much like to know, if/how to recieve TVGOS before I consider my LG3410a, a timer style HD recorder
FYI I can't time record as MV, not b-day, wiped out my old schedual and only listed the big 4 networks, to use in TVGOS recotding, so back to 3410As.


JanJ's current set up?
I think-I think, he's recieving TVGOS data on, a DVTPal, on OTA, outputing on channel 3, or it may be outputting tvgos on a different anolog channel, my Artec T3APR-T says channel 9.

Guessing he's inputing (mixed by combiner/splitter) with OTA broadcasted digital channels, that/because it no longer interfears, with non existing anolog channels.

Could be, he's using LG3410a anntena (OTA) input, cable-NO, box-NO,
(as he'll get OTA, anolog, channels, with cable off,
so, as not to, overide with the anolog/cable priority),

Maybe, he's using DVTPals recomended zip code, entered on his LG, or Pal, ???

I don't know, if he's using his G-link or not, for 2 way communication, on his tvgos recieving/working LG.

but, I think, Jan & Tony will keep us informed!

MODERATOR HELP! This 3410a forum, needs a TVGOS support/thread, as (a lot) of TOGOS questions, but we want/need to see JanJ & Tony's input,

Warning to all about First Birthday's..... (This is still in the 'assumption' stage, but if I'm right......)

In the past 2 months, I have not seen one channel list offered, even when I force to a new host channel.

Furthermore, When I made the radical change from Cable Yes, Cablebox No.... To Cable NO (OTA Only) data received into existing OTA Plus Cable Icon lists... No Channel Lists were downloaded to select from.

From this, I'm wondering if a First Birthday should be used only in extreme circumstances... Because if no Channel lists are downloaded to select from, how are you going to get Icons with which to get listings on?

I'm not 100% certain, but I have not seen a channel list for 3 or more months, which corresponds to the 2-3 month 'change' that I've griped about often...

IF ANYONE gets prompted for a channel list, Please post so.... I'm wondering if this is one of the 'wonderful' changes we've been given lately...

Since First Birthday erases all Icons, until we know it's possible to download a fresh list, I'd be a bit afraid to do a 'First Birthday', not knowing if I could get a chanel list afterward.....

Please explain what you mean by 'Icons'.

FYI, I used to routinely reboot and then perform a First Birthday reset to enable setting the clock accurately whenever the RESERVED light came on. I found the only way to get the GUIDE light to come on, enabling TVGOS set-up, was when the clock was accurate to within a minute. The GUIDE light would usually come on within an hour or two after resetting the clock, but the clock appeared to get a fine-tune reset within a minute or two after 3410A was turned off with a reset clock. I never attempted to force a host channel.

Before turning 3410A off I would manually enable all VHS band analog channels, where TVGOS data comes from; and 3 digital channels which can be received OTA. In order to enable the Ch. Edit Menu to access analog cable channels when 3410A was in its default (First Birthday) OTA mode I directly tuned to a digital cable channel and then an analog channel, which would then be a cable channel, before entering 3410A's Menu. I had already attempted to get analog OTA TVGOS data from CBUT ch. 2 on a Sony DVR without success so never set 3410A for OTA TVGOS.

When the GUIDE light came on I turned the 3410A on and went through TVGOS set-up for Cable, Yes; STB, No followed by Easy Scan and then turned 3410A off. Next day when turned on again TVGOS offered a choice of channel line-ups.

Soon after the USA's digital conversion on June 12 3410A would no longer access TVGOS. About a week ago TVGOS started functioning again.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16731265#post16731265

I assume (0xF06) is the value of the HOST ID line right above Host Chan correct? If so I have never known of any significance placed to it.

Thanks; that's what I wasn't sure of! :o

...TVGOS only works with resolutions no higher than 480p.

I'm not following you here. I've always had full access to TVGOS in all resolutions up to 1080i. The difference is quite noticeable as you would expect.

However the low level diagnostic menu to perform 'first birthday' requires I use a composite (rca yellow or s-video) connection. I use the front panel 'display format' button and change to video.

After resetting TVGOS I use the front panel 'Display Format' button to change 3410A's 'First Birthday' output from composite to either 480i Component when sending the output to a DVD recorder or to DVI when watching it directly. For me TVGOS doesn't display properly (it flickers at a high rate) when any resolution above 480p is selected.

I submit, that currently, I'm being very unsympathetic, about other functions/operations of 3410a's(.)

...sorry to advocate for TVGOS help and being mean to you, I'm wasting forum time with this trivia...
but, I think, Jan & Tony will keep us informed!

MODERATOR HELP! This 3410a forum, needs a TVGOS support/thread, as (a lot) of TOGOS questions, but we want/need to see JanJ & Tony's input(.)

IMHO, you are wasting Forum time by 'cheering' Jan & Tony on; they're doing their thing; let them be unless you have info to contribute.

But do your thing, guy; I never put a poster on 'Ignore'; self-censorship just isn't my style, regardless of any potential annoyance.

I'll let other posters and Forum Moderators decide the most appropriate course for this thread to follow.

After ~2 months of testing with 'Gooney Unit' Zipcode in DTVPal per Macrovision, I've switched to my real Zipcode in the DTVPal, Set it back up for TVG mode, with SA 121 commands to turn on TVG in VBI. This is the DTVPal that is mixed back into Cable, feeding 3 3410a DVR's in Cable Yes, Cablebox No mode...

Just to make the playing field level.... I also did the 1 second power cycle on the 3 DVR's in this configuration....

Time will Tell......... (Prior to this, DTVPal set for "Gooney Unit" Zipcode, and even when forced to CBS off Cable, ABC off Cable, or DTVPal, it would drop it's host..... and get NO LISTINGS. But still require a power cycle every 2-3 days).

Other 3410 DVR, Set for: Cable No, With 2nd DTVPal set for 60076 Zip, DTVPal set for Ch 3, mixed into OTA feed..... Is still getting listings... but still in the "Skip Days" mode... Some days have No Listings, some days have listings... and requires a power cycle occasionally due to TVG lockup... (Thought it appears a bit less frequent than the 2-3 day senerio)

Warning to all about First Birthday's..... (This is still in the 'assumption' stage, but if I'm right......)

...When I made the radical change from Cable Yes, Cablebox No.... To Cable NO (OTA Only) data received into existing OTA Plus Cable Icon lists... No Channel Lists were downloaded to select from.

From this, I'm wondering if a First Birthday should be used only in extreme circumstances... Because if no Channel lists are downloaded to select from, how are you going to get Icons with which to get listings on?

...Since First Birthday erases all Icons, until we know it's possible to download a fresh list, I'd be a bit afraid to do a 'First Birthday', not knowing if I could get a chanel list afterward.....

Please explain what you mean by 'Icons'.

After 'First Birthday' reset I can always access TVGOS set-up and re-enter source and ZIPcode info.

Again, what do you mean by 'Icons'? Does the term only apply when OTA is selected as the source for TVGOS data?

After 'First Birthday' reset I can always access TVGOS set-up and re-enter source and ZIPcode info.

Again, what do you mean by 'Icons'? Does the term only apply when OTA is selected as the source for TVGOS data?


After a First Birthday there is no Channel Lists, and therefore, no Icons in TVG. This has to be received (Channel Lists). Once received, you can manipulate it as you see fit, for your installation...

My concern is: If I haven't been receiving a channel list when I change TVG Setups, It concerns me that if you do a First Birthday, and get no channel lists, you won't be able to use TVG.... because there are no Icons to select.
I've seen the most often in the Cable Yes, Cablebox No, Mode of configuration.

In the past months, I've been Locking to VBI of selected host channels, but even though this used to give channel lists before, it doesn't do it now, and that fuels my concern about First Birthday use.

Get it?

I'm still unsure of exactly what you mean by 'Icons'.

My approach has been to attempt to use TVGOS normally after a First Birthday reset. At first, because First Birthday's default setting is OTA, I thought getting TVGOS to work from cable after First Birthday required connecting the cable coax to the ANT IN jack to fool the system into accessing data from the cable source. That worked but I eventually found that doing that is unnecessary when cable analog (at least ch.'s 2-13) channels are set-up manually from the Ch. Edit Menu before turning 3410A off.

Surprisingly I never had a problem tuning an analog cable channel directly, even when OTA was the default setting. I don't know why, but it appears that 3410A reverts to receiving channels it already has accessed regardless of the default setting. I'm not 100% sure if a digital cable channel had to be tuned to first to enable CADTV in the Ch. Edit Menu before Ch. Edit could access CATV, but it's likely.

TV and CATV can never be selected at the same time (unless, perhaps, if OTA is selected as the source for TVGOS, which I've never done) but both DTV and CADTV channels remain accessible from Ch. Edit after EZ Scan.

---

EDIT: Without using First Birthday how do you reset the clock? My 3410A won't allow resetting the clock manually, once it's been set through TVGOS. But without the clock being set accurately (to within a minute or so) the 3410A won't download TVGOS data.

I'm still unsure of exactly what you mean by 'Icons'.

I'm guessing by icons he means the station logos to the left of each line in the listings.

Of course since I don't have an LG 3410A I really shouldn't be speaking here. I was just looking in to see how things are going in TVGOS 7 land.

I have a Panasonic DMR-EH75V (DVD/HDD/VHS) with TVGOS 9 which doesn't have an ATSC tuner. I've been getting listings from my DTVPal Plus just fine in the San Francisco Bay Area since perhaps a week before the June 12th transition.

I feel bad for the TVGOS 7 users. The best I've heard is Panasonic DMR units with TVGOS 7 that get listings okay, but only for a few channels. The major networks, they say.

I don't think using the alternate zip is that useful. Because it can't pinpoint target your area it includes lots of channels you can't get. I talked about that in this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16706191&postcount=6389) message on 6/23/09 in the DTVPal thread.

Assuming you are getting listings by setting your real zip code in the TVGOS device (LG in this case) but are unhappy with the listings something I would try is the other zip codes that are nearby. I would try them in the order of whichever has the highest population of people. The idea being the more people there are the more likely Macrovision/Gemstar would have put effort in to getting things set correctly.

I've used the following: http://www.brainyzip.com/ to find my nearby zips.

But the following DMOZ category mentions some other zip code sites which might be better:
http://www.google.com/Top/Reference/Directories/Address_and_Phone_Numbers/Postal_Codes/

I've read someone else with a TVGOS 7 device having luck choosing an alternate zip from his own. This (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16448660&postcount=6161) 5/12/09 message in the DTVPal thread where I say "Great Find!-)". And related is this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16506662&postcount=6215) 5/21/09 message in the DTVPal thread where I recommended some try another zip in their TVGOS 7 device. I mention it because I had some other small tidbits of possibly useful info to say.

---------

I don't mean to muddy the waters. :) I realize LG-3410A has an ATSC tuner and its users want to still get higher resolution than the 480i that the DTVPal outputs. And hope to do this without using the IR Blaster but instead use a channel combiner and perhaps a notch filter.

Of course if nothing is working for you it is my opinion you should at least try to get the typical setup working first. Then you can move on to more exotic configurations.

And I realize someone on this thread at one point mentioned that the zip that is set in the DTVPal itself doesn't have an influence on the TVGOS listings, at least I think I recall seeing that. I've not specifically tested for this. So they could well be right. (one of my messages speculated it mattered).

Without using First Birthday how do you get rid of the RESERVED light which blocks all access to TVGOS?

I've always used the 5 second unplug/replug to clear the dreaded green light.

IMHO, you are wasting Forum time by 'cheering' Jan & Tony on; they're doing their thing; let them be unless you have info to contribute.

But do your thing, guy; I never put a poster on 'Ignore'; self-censorship just isn't my style, regardless of any potential annoyance.

I'll let other posters and Forum Moderators decide the most appropriate course for this thread to follow.

Your right, I'll just read posts and hope to get my TVGOS working again.

JanJ, thanks for your input and helping us, I'll be reading, do you think we need a G-link cable?

JanJ, thanks for your input and helping us, I'll be reading, do you think we need a G-link cable?

I've always used the 5 second unplug/replug to clear the dreaded green light.

OK, but after rebooting how do you set the clock? I misstated the question in the earlier post. :o

My 3410A won't allow the clock to be set from the menu unless I do a First Birthday. But without the clock being set (accurately to within a minute or so) 3410A won't download TVGOS data.

If you have scheduled recordings you will have to delete them in order to set the clock, but it should tell you that...

Regarding the Glink cable.... Macrovision says it should work that way (with Glink controlling the DTVPal), with all recordings being done from video input (I think it's input 2, but double check that).... Yes, they want you to use downconverted recordings!
I tried it for a week, and never got any data, like all the other tests I was doing at the time... and because of that & downconverted recordings, I 'lost interest' in that configuration real fast... I don't want to lose OTA HD recordings...
(I can't believe that they do (use it with downconverted SD video from DTVPal), but that's what they told me!)
But it doesn't matter, since their configuration didn't get any listings either!

If you have scheduled recordings you will have to delete them in order to set the clock, but it should tell you that...

If only it really worked that way. When I have no recordings scheduled I get the RESERVED light and can neither set the clock nor access TVGOS. That's 3410A's primary Catch-22 absurdity. Beyond that glitch (there are others) 3410A would be just another DVR with known issues!

If only it really worked that way. When I have no recordings scheduled I get the RESERVED light and can neither set the clock nor access TVGOS. That's 3410A's primary Catch-22 absurdity. Beyond that glitch (there are others) 3410A would be just another DVR with known issues!
I believe that in the past, when I couldn't set the clock, I got rid of scheduled recordings, then did a 5-sec unplug, and I'd be able to set the time - always got past the inability to set the clock, and I think that's how I did it...

I'm with Jan...got no listings with the fake zip code/cable box setup anyway (didn't bother hooking up the g-link, since if the FIRST step - getting the TVGOS data - doesn't work, no point to trying to USE the data to control the Pal)...so went to the standard setup with the 3410a (as per my test setup)...still got no listings, but the fact that I DO get listings to my v8 Sony 250 that way indicates that the Pal is converting data for real zip codes also (which it must do, since the legacy stream is the same one cable companies convert and insert to get analog TVGOS data to their subscribers...)

If only it really worked that way. When I have no recordings scheduled I get the RESERVED light and can neither set the clock nor access TVGOS. That's 3410A's primary Catch-22 absurdity. Beyond that glitch (there are others) 3410A would be just another DVR with known issues!
Have you deleted your schedualed favorites too?

FYI When I recieved, my 1st wonderful (4 channel Schedual) it reset my clock and now the 3410 has blocked me from changing my time, too., no reserve light on mine, Used too set the clock a little fast so could check that data was coming in by watching it reset time, but not now.

No data yet, hoping my cable splitter works as a combiner too

I believe that in the past, when I couldn't set the clock, I got rid of scheduled recordings, then did a 5-sec unplug, and I'd be able to set the time - always got past the inability to set the clock, and I think that's how I did it...

Do you think that different 3410A's and/or different user locations play a part in what each of us is experiencing?

With no scheduled recordings, I've NEVER been able to reset my 3410A's clock after a reboot without First Birthday. When rebooting, the clock shows ---- when the recorder is plugged back in but remains off. Then, when the recorder is turned back on from either the remote or front panel switch the RESERVED light always comes on.

---

With regard to TVGOS what do you think Jan means by 'Icons'?

Have you deleted your scheduled favorites too?

Yes. When attempting to re-enable TVGOS set-up I check, unless already locked out by the RESERVE light, that no recordings or favorites are scheduled.

I have other hi-def DVRs (Moxi & Sony) besides the 3410A so it doesn't get a heavy recording schedule. I mostly use it for the excellent tuner that it is along with its built in capability to switch between its tuner and standard-def inputs which are connected to a DVD player and VCR.

(Just for the record: I have a bunch of other A/V stuff, including an S3 TiVo and Toshiba TiVo DVD recorder in another room, plus a ReplayTV in each room!)

Do you think that different 3410A's and/or different user locations play a part in what each of us is experiencing?

{snip}
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With regard to TVGOS what do you think Jan means by 'Icons'?

My guess your situation is hardware related. What version of firmware does yours report? Go to:

LG Menu > Setup > Troubleshooting > Version Info

Mine was originally MP1.14. I have upgraded to the last known release MP1.17.

I think what Jan means by icons is the labels on the left side of the grid. NBC peacock, CBS eye, Mtv and etc.

Mine is running MP1.15.

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Other than for those couple of weeks after June 12 I've been able to get guide data, although before June 12 it sometimes was flakey.

Right now the guide data seems to be coming from Comcast's analog simulcast of ch. 13, Fox (OxD). In the past it has come from chs. 4, ABC; 7, CBS; and 9, PBS. The flakey periods always involved a switch in the data source.

Mine is running MP1.15.

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Other than for those couple of weeks after June 12 I've been able to get guide data, although before June 12 it sometimes was flakey.

Right now the guide data seems to be coming from Comcast's analog simulcast of ch. 13, Fox (OxD). In the past it has come from chs. 4, ABC; 7, CBS; and 9, PBS. The flakey periods always involved a switch in the data source.

MP1.15 should be good. I ran it for several years after doing a firmware upgrade myself. Jan put mine at MP1.17 when he was doing the power supply cap mod on it.

I'm stumped. Yours has 2 unusual conditions:
1. unable to display tvgos above 480p.
2. loss of clock with tvgos lockup/reserved light on.

Mine retains clock after a brief power cycle.

Update:
The 3 DVR's connected as Cable Yes, Cablebox No, with DTVPal mixed into cable as CH3.
TWO of the THREE changed from host 0x0 !!
One is now locked to the DTVPal (On it's own, without me locking it!) and has LISTINGS!
DTVPal set for 60076 Zipcode
Has day 1 (Today) has listings
Day 2 has listings
Day 3 has no listings
Day 4 has no listings
Day 5 has no listings
Day 6 has listings
Day 7 has listings

Second DVR is locked to 0x2 (CBS off Cable, on it's own, without me locking it) and has same identical Listings!!

Third DVR still at host 0x0 EDIT! Locked it to ABC 7-0 to see what happens...

Experimental DVR (Set for Cable NO), locked to CH3 (DTVPal) now has host of 0x0
and listings for day 1 and 3 only....

EDIT! Know why Experimental unit lost host.... Power hit at home day before yesterday wife tells me... only one DTVPal is on UPS (Experimental DVR not on UPS)
This verified on scope -- No TVG in VBI. Sent SA commands, TVG in VBI back on, Locked it to 3-0.....

Looks like something happened, as 3 of 4 units changed.