tj-
You may be able to solve your problem if you explain it to your cable company - your signal strength may not be up to their standards. I could understand my not being able to record the Cable HD if I was in your situation. But it seems odd to me that what I record is worse than what I watch. I do get exceptional analog recordings, but I would like to get HD recordings.

Tim

Originally posted by Hyrax
I wonder if anyone else is having problems recording HD from their cable. HD If I watch a show and record it at the same time, I find a number of 'digital problems' in the recorded video that I did not see when I watched the show live. The problem is that cable channels will look fine and sound fine when I watch them but the recorded show will have major video problems and frequent (very frequent) audio drop outs.

The signal strength is in the middle (Normal) range for my cable HD stations but is about 50% higher for my OTA stations. My OTA stations do not have the exact same problem. However, I have noticed even with a good OTA signal that if I see a small glitch (say on a rainy, windy day) in a live show, the same glitch is a lot more noticable in the recorded show. There was a Patriots football game on a very stormy night where this happened a lot.

Does this sound like a problem I should consider getting LG to try to fix?

Tim

No solution for you here. My cable to HDD recordings are perfect on playback. But, as previously noted, I get your results after copying to tape --- VERY frequent dropouts (on tape playback, only when the source was cable). My cable signal level is barely into the Normal range. On two channels, it's exactly between Normal and Bad.

I wonder if these problems are related. It's amazing how many variations of problems there are with the 3410A.

LG said they would exchange the unit, but no one could verify that the problem could actually be fixed. So I haven't sent it in. This unit is a dream compared to my first one, even though the 1394 is useless for copying from the HDD.

I do use the unit to playback D-VHS tapes recorded from my Comcast box.

I don't think anyone has mentioned it yet. Here is a website on TV Guide On Screen:

http://www.vgi.com/

Although the support section isn't too helpful, it's a start. The FAQ section at least answers a few of the many questions everyone has about this system.

PixelKing,
I just had my 3410A upgraded by LG to firmware version 1.15 ( all numbers match yours i.e. GUIDE 7.120, HW 10.4, DB 4.15. date Apr 06 2004) ) and now it turns itself on automatically every morning or during the night, same as yours. I used to have 1.12 and it never did this. Maybe there is something in the SF Bay area recent guide downloads that causes this and the 1.15 software is more sensitive to it? My HT is on a independent electrical circuit feeding through a Richard Grey power station. There are no other i r sources in the room that come on during the night. Everything else is great about the unit and I like it a lot. My unit is a 351 build upgraded to 1.15. I live in Los Altos Hills and I am sure we each are on separate PG&E feeds. Are there any other 3410A users that have started to experience this auto turn on?
Tony

Mine doesn't turn on at all over in Vacaville. BUT, for the past week and 1/2 I get no TV Guide data on downloads, which is fine with me! The guide messed up a couple of times and I lost recordings. Now I just record like a VCR tape and I haven't had a problem.

Dave

Tony,

Sorry to hear that your 3410A has developed insomnia just like mine. I find my unit powered up every morning without fail. Glad to hear that I'm not alone.

I have modified my morning routine to include shutting-down the 3410A after I have started my coffee maker. On the other hand, it probably does not hurt the 3410A to be ON all the time as long your unit is running cool.

PixelKing

Just a thought on one possibility...Did you try resetting the LST-3410a? I'm sure you already know but this is done by unplugging, putting the demo pin in, repowering, unplugging, removing the demo pin and then power up again.

Subject: Does a D-VCR and a 3410a go together... "like love & marriage" ?

I hear you fellas say over and over that a 3410a can archive to a D-VCR and I don't understand it . I'd think that a 3410a owner could add on HDD capacity almost ad infinitum (and cheaply too) and then the archives would be more accessible (*randomly-so, too!) than an old fashion tape cassette.

I have a new JVC DT-100 D-VHS VCR here, just arrived. It hasn't shown its chops since its ATSC tuner... the feature I'd hoped would bring me OTA HD and so permit my very first timeshift of HDTV (this seemed critically important to me, since any real-time HDTV is absolutely worthless to me: only timeshift will enable me to see HD) .

Well, I cannot for the present receive any stations OTA that provide digital TV, or so says the ATSC tuner in the D-VCR.

What, if any, benefit do you expect might be enjoyed by a D-VCR owner who is willing to add a 3410a to his rack? Do the two technologies complement eachother somehow, is it more a case of 'either the one or t'other?

(I haven't got CATV, but I do have C-band big dish with gorgeous HD programming there)

No "love and marriage" between the D-vhs vcrs and the 3410a. You can copy recorded content from the 3410a to D-vhs that you want to keep, which works for me, but you can't set up the 3410a to record TO d-vhs, as some would like.

Also, the 3410a will only record from certain 1394 units- which, I am guessing, your C-band gear isn't and probably doesn't have 1394 at all.

If you don't get OTA HD and don't have cable, the 3410a isn't much use to you. It's a good DVR, when the guide works. But if the tuner on the JVC isn't picking up local OTA, I wouldn't think the 3410 would do better for you- but I don't have any idea how good a tuner the JVC has.

Although I have not tried this yet, (but plan to soon), the 3410a will allow you to record d-vhs content, (that is not copy protected), to it's hard drive where you can edit it.

<What, if any, benefit do you expect might be enjoyed by a D-VCR owner who is willing to add a 3410a to his rack? Do the two technologies complement eachother somehow, is it more a case of 'either the one or t'other?

(I haven't got CATV, but I do have C-band big dish with gorgeous HD programming there)>

Maggot,

I too have a 4DTV/HDD200 on which I receive gorgeous HD. Tthe 3410A has an extremely sensitive tuner but if you have installed a roof mounted antenna and amplifiers and still can not lock the ATSC signal, forget the 3410A. My third unit works well but lately it has developed a loud chatter in the Hard drive every so often (it has happened 3 times). I missed the recording. Also, you do not get a positive indication when it fails to lock during a scheduled recording. I've lost several that way. Otherwise it works perfectly.

BTW, there is no way to timeshift te HDD200 output as I'm sure you have learned. Other than the absurdly expensive 169Time mod.

"BTW, there is no way to timeshift te HDD200"

Alas! Yup- it slowly sinks in, Art. Gees I do wonder how the ATSC tuner compare wrt sensitivity. The guys on the local (NYC) OTA thread are all excited abt new antenna and such on another skyscraper, and say there'll be lots more power, better array, etc.

But (Alas!) I have no interest in commercial broadcast programming. My closest and (in fact a high priority and a very dear hope ) my desire to receive PBS in HD and timeshift so as to watch nature and nova etc at my convenience. That is
my main interest in the local vhf/uhf ATSC world.

As my optimism for timeshifting C-band slowly sets in the west, I am *finally* hearing myself consider a very reluctant end to my 20 years romance with my 3m BUD. How I loved C-band, and I've paid for all I seen no gripes. From a hobbiest to the massmarket it's been a fun ride and educational too.

But the big boys are clearly determined to shut it down for pizza dish compression. Well well what do you do? Sic transit gloria mundi - and it won't be the last, no not by a long chalk. Damn shame too.

Has anyone else run into QAM tuner problems with channels having high numbers of subchannels? My local Comcast seems to be carrying two separate sets of audio-only music channels. Both are in-the-clear, but I can only occasionally tune Channel 103, which carries Music Choice on 54 subchannels, 103-1 thru 103-54.

I can pick these music subchannels up...it just takes the LG 15-30 secs sometimes to lock in. FW 1.15

Originally posted by protsch
FIREWIRE DOES WORK THROUGH MITS TV!!
Then I found the 1394 button. If you have a DVHS hooked up (Mine was the Mits HD-2000U hooked up through TV. KEEP IN MIND MANUAL SAYS NOT TO DAISY CHAIN THOUGH DVR ITSELF. ) , the button will show DVHS logo with the player name (the right one so 2000U is recognized)when selected. Then it has a little Device Menu just like NetCommand where you can turn on the DVHS and play the tape. (The picture will pop up from the DVHS and everything going through Firewire.) It also had Mits Projection TV on the 1394 Menu but then it says unsupported Device.

However, I selected the DVR 1394 Icon from Netcommand and this time up popped the picture from the LG Tuner. (Ha, it does work!!) The only thing is there are no menu or info graphics dislpayed through 1394. Analog picture is also not displayed and you cannot change the screen format either. YOU JUST GET RAW DIGITAL PICTURE. You can tell channel you are on by looking at the display on the box (CH 10-1 and the TIME for instance).

Paul

Paul,
I also have a Mits integrated set with 1394, Net Command 3.0 I believe. If I understand your post, you can watch digital TV from the 3410A just by selecting the 1394 input on your TV. So you can get away with one cable. The only downside is that you don't see any menu or graphics, so does this mean you can't see the guide? You have to use component or DVI to see the guide?

I also have a DVR10 which I use to record now, but is flakey. Sounds like the 3410A will see the DVR10 so I could move content between the two if I needed.
Bryan

I'm using a LST-3410A on a Mitsubishi WD-62525 DLP.
Going from DVI Connector (Native) to HDMI connector on Mitsubishi for video, and Via Optical connector (Through a Optical/Coaxial converter) to Digital input on my Bose Lifestyle 35 for audio.

I've a series of comments I'd like answers to.....

Because I'm in Native, the output of the box varies depending on what is being received and played back.

If I receive, record, or playback SD Cable (480i) feeds, it plays it back in 480P. 720P as 720P, and 1080i as 1080i. With that said, I am noticing the following....... and I'd like someone with like output connections to confirm.......

If I receive 1080i, as EE signal, or as a playback of a recording of such material, the Video is simply wonderful, and audio, both digital and analog, is in sync with video.

If I receive 720P, as EE signal, or as a playback of a recording of such material, the Video is simply wonderful, and the audio, both digital and analog, is in sync with video.

However, if I receive a 480i signal, as EE signal or as a playback of a recording of such material, the Chromanance is out of time with Luminance, both Vertically (above by 1-2 lines) and horizontally (to the left).
Also, the Digital audio is 3-4 frames BEHIND the video, though the Analog audio is in time with video.

I know it is not the Mitsubishi WD-62525, as when playing back a Cable SD recording (or in EE) the 480P of the playback is as mentioned above, but, when I call up the LST-3410A's Menus, the Menus are in crisp Lum/CH timing, but the playback is still out of time.

Would someone please confirm these statements, and post here?

I'm using April 6, 2004 firmware. V1.15

Don't get me wrong, I love the product, but just want confirmation of what I'm seeing from other users.

1.

Sorry, duplicate post...

Jan -
I don't have your setup, but will respond since no one else has.

First of all, what is EE?

I had problems with Native mode when I used my 3410A on analog stations via a RGB connection (I found that the problem was with my RGB input on my TV accepting a 480P signal, so I switched the 3410A to another TV). Try setting the output to 720P and see if the video problems go away. I always use 720P with my DLP projector and it works well.

If that doesn't work, try using the S-Video output. I've found that SD and even HD material looks quite good when sent out via S-Video. I've burnt a number of shows this way and find the quality pretty close to that of a commercial DVD.

Next the audio problem may be something in your receiver. Other people have had bugs in their receiver's AC3 decoding and have had to upgrade their receivers when they connect them to STBs. It could also be that the 3410A is having a problem converting the analog stereo to a digital audio signal, but I don't think so (mainly because I do not have any audio delay on my 480I material). Does the Mits allow you to input digital audio? If it does, connect the 3410A to your TV and test if the problem is with the Bose amp.

Hope these suggestions help.

Originally posted by Jan J

However, if I receive a 480i signal, as EE signal or as a playback of a recording of such material, the Chromanance is out of time with Luminance, both Vertically (above by 1-2 lines) and horizontally (to the left).
Also, the Digital audio is 3-4 frames BEHIND the video, though the Analog audio is in time with video.

I know it is not the Mitsubishi WD-62525, as when playing back a Cable SD recording (or in EE) the 480P of the playback is as mentioned above, but, when I call up the LST-3410A's Menus, the Menus are in crisp Lum/CH timing, but the playback is still out of time.



Jan, this is just a guess since we don't have any waveforms to work with, but could you have somehow be feeding multiple inputs to the TV at the same time? I've seen something similar where both the composite and s-video were being displayed at the same time (or perhaps the component and s-video). Try having only one input connected at a time into the TV and see if the problem goes away.

On the sound issue, I'd have to know how you are measuring the delay and how far away you are from the speakers to know what is going on. If you can, you might try a different receiver and see if the same problem occurs. If the problem is also heard with the other receiver this would make me start to question how the LST-3410a is decoding the signal (but that doesn't explain why the converted to analog audio is OK).

EE is Electronic to Electronic feeds... In other words, if I tune in Cable Channel 21, as opposed to a playback of a previously recorded Cable channel 21 signal... That is looking at EE.

Because I'm outputting via the DVI output, I can't force to certain HD ouputs. Per the manual, Native output takes the feed and outputs it directly via the DVI output. So, If I receive 1080i, then it outputs 1080i. Same with 720P. Any received 480i signals get transcoded to 480P.

The Luminance Chromanance error's I'm seeing are only on 480P, and occur in both EE and Playback conditions... IF, while in either EE or playback of a 480P program, I hit the Menu button, the luminance and chromanance timing of the Menu is perfect, while the EE or Playback of the 480P signal is displaced horizontally & Vertically.

The problem with the Audio is slightly different....

Audio, both Digital and Analog, is output to a Bose Lifestyle system.

I can force the Bose to listen to digital by feeding it to the Bose, it will auto select digital... I can remove power from the Optical/Coaxial Digital audio converter, and the Bose will switch to analog audio feeds.

It's while viewing either EE 480P or Playback of 480P (I.E. Cable 480i feeds that were recorded), that I find that the Digital Audio is 3-4 Video frames behind the video displayed on the screen. However, if I pull the power on the Optical/coaxial audio converter (to Force Bose to analog audio from DVR) Audio and video are in time (Lipsync). Plug in power for digital audio converter, (Bose switches to digital audio from DVR) and the audio is later than the video again.
Again, this happens only in 480P mode...... 720P and 1080i EE and Playbacks are in perfect Luminance/Chromanance timing, as is digital vs. Analog audio lipsync.

I would not even consider downgrading from DVI to SVideo output. That is not an option.

Is this clearer?

Jan,
Are you sure about the DVI only outputting Native? I use the DVI and have my output set to 1080i since that is the native resolution of my TV. I will check ESPNHD to see if my TV sees a 720P signal coming in.

Dave

I'm not saying that it only puts out Native.... But Native is one of the options.....

I'm using Native so I get the least amount of re-processing of the image, such that I introduce the minimum of artifacts from my output selection.

I'll be nosy to see what your findings are!

If your system were an FP CRT, you would welcome the "reprocessing". On mine, the 1080i looks visibly better than the native 720P that some stations broadcast in. This occurs because one must stretch the picture more horizontally to fill the screen in 720 than in 1080i. The reprocessing the 3410A does is outstanding and preferable in my case. i view on a 96" wide palate.

I agree with MrHifi on this as well. The internal scaler in the 3410A is better than my CRT TV (Hitachi 57SWX20B).

Dave

Jan -
IF, while in either EE or playback of a 480P program, I hit the Menu button, the luminance and chromanance timing of the Menu is perfect, while the EE or Playback of the 480P signal is displaced horizontally & Vertically.
I'm not sure that your assertion is correct that, 'because the playback of the menus is perfect the problem therefore originates in the 3410A'. Just because the station you've tuned into is broadcast at 480i, it does not appear to me that the menu is displayed at a 480 resolution. The problem could indeed be that the 3410A is screwing up, or it could be that there is something in the 480P signal that the Mits cannot handle properly when it tries to scale it to your screen's resolution.

You really should try output at either 720P or 1080i (I suggest 720P because I believe that is the resolution of your Mits) instead of using 'Native'.

Note that I was only suggesting S-Video for the 480i material. It really does look good this way if you've got a half decent TV.

DLP's don't display 480i information very well...neither the Mits or Samsung do well in this regard IMHO.

Dave

I looked at these answers, and checked last night, and I disagree with your asumptions....

I have a DVD Player that outputs 480P and that looks good on the 62525, with luminance and chromanance in perfect time as seen on the Mits.

I also have digital audio out of this DVD.... That, too is in time with video.

The RF Feeds are split, so that I can use the tuner's on each (DVD and 62525) and the problem follows the 3410A with the sources I have. Same signals into 3410A shows what I posted.

I'm hoping that someone here is using DVI output and can swtich to Native and check what I'm asking.... Just looking for confirmation or denyial...

If I could capture from inputs of 3410, or transfer via firewire, I could then inport something into 3410A and then output it, and at least that way, could verify if it is Input side or Output side related (LUM/CH or audio problems).

Jan

Jan -
Did you try switching out of Native? I am fairly sure that it will make your problem go away. On my setup, there were problems when I used Native and 480P output with NTSC broadcasts on some (not all) stations. The 720P, 1080i, and 480i (S-Video) output did not seem to have these problems. Which is what you wanted to know, right?

The fact that I was seeing problems not completely different than yours when viewing NTSC broadcasts while using the Native output, seems to indicate that the problem may not have anything to do with the DVI connection.

Are you saying that your DVD player is taking a NTSC broadcast and is outputting 480P properly over the same DVI connection to your TV? In addition, is the DVD player taking the broadcast analog stereo sound track, converting it to digital sound, and sending this to your Bose receiver without a problem? If that is indeed the case, it does indicate that the 3410A doesn't do well when convertng NTSC broadcasts to Native output. If this is not the case, then you've still not isolated the problem as originating from the 3410A.

Originally posted by Hyrax
Jan -
Did you try switching out of Native? I am fairly sure that it will make your problem go away. On my setup, there were problems when I used Native and 480P output with NTSC broadcasts on some (not all) stations. The 720P, 1080i, and 480i (S-Video) output did not seem to have these problems. Which is what you wanted to know, right?

I will check later today, and post...


The fact that I was seeing problems not completely different than yours when viewing NTSC broadcasts while using the Native output, seems to indicate that the problem may not have anything to do with the DVI connection.

Could you elaborate your findings please?


Are you saying that your DVD player is taking a NTSC broadcast and is outputting 480P properly over the same DVI connection to your TV?


No, The only DVI output I have is on DVR.

In addition, is the DVD player taking the broadcast analog stereo sound track, converting it to digital sound, and sending this to your Bose receiver without a problem?

No, just the DVD analog and Digital audio output... HOWEVER, the Mitsubishi can receive the same signal with it's digital and analog audio in time with the video..... Also, Digital audio out of other sources are in perfect lipsync with video.. Just Digital audio is out of time, not analog audio output....

If that is indeed the case, it does indicate that the 3410A doesn't do well when convertng NTSC broadcasts to Native output. If this is not the case, then you've still not isolated the problem as originating from the 3410A.

Then why does the menu appear in perfect time, luminance and Chromanance when at 480P???? I need to find someone to document the DVI output on 480P.

Jan -
As I said earlier, I do not believe the menu is being sent at 480P. The resolution of the station you're tuned to does not determine the resolution of the menu.

The point I'm trying to make is the facts that you see clear 3410A menus and have good DVD playback on your TV do not 'prove with 100% certainty' that the problems you've described all originate from the 3410A. I actually do believe that the problem probably is in the 3410A, but it is not limited to just the DVI output (although using DVI may contribute to the audio synch problem), and may go away if you stop using the Native output option.

I should mention that I never watch NTSC through my 3410A. I've got the 3410A connected to a DLP projector and NTSC at its very best looks absolutely terrible. Even SD material and material up-converted from SD to HD by networks looks pretty awful. DVDs and HDTV have spoiled me such that I only watch low quality stuff on a smaller TV.

When I play back a 480P (converted 480i) OR EE the signal through the 3410A, the 3410A says it is outputting 480P. The Mitsubishi also says it is receiving 480P

The signal at that time, has the mentioned Lum/Chroma timing errors.

When I then call up the Menu over the 480P playback, the 3410A still says it is outputting 480P, and the Mitsubishi still says it is receiveing 480P.

At this point in time, the Menu is crisp and in time, luma to chroma, yet the playback isn't in time....

How can you have both the menu video in time, and the playback out of time simultaneously without thinking that it isn't the source device?

Merthinks if we could view the block diagram of the 3410A we'd see the transcoding from 480i to 480P is happening before the image is recorded on the drive. Also, the drive (and input EE after transcoding) is before the output transcoding.

If I switch to a forced ouput (Manual isn't in front of me, but there was some formats that wouldn't playback other formats through the DVI connector... The manual seemed to suggest native format was preferred, if I recall). If I switch to a forced ouput, I'd be transcoding the image still another time, and I'd like to keep the amount of transcodings to a minimum, so as to reduce visable artifacts....
If it does work by forcing a certain output format, wouldn't that just prove that something is wrong inside???

I'll do some tests tonight, and post back....

I do appreciate your point of view, though!

480i will not be output over DVI...it can't. It is processed to 480P. I would try setting your output to the native rate of your display, 720P and see how that works.

Dave

Ok.... Did some testing......

First test DVI output.... Verified my postings for Lum/Chroma timing in Native format.... Cable Channel 22 (QVC--480i) selected because of all the color CG's on screen made verifying Lum/Ch timings easier....
Viewed the 480P and yes, there are Lum/Chroma mis-timings... Color CG's have a color fringing that appears to the left of the CG, and depending on surrounding backgrounds, above (and below) the CG as well.

Next, DVI output still, switched to Variable 3 (forces output to 720P)...
Channel 22 again... Lum/Chromanance timings still off as before. Called up Menu... Menu fine, EE of Channel 22 out of Y/C timing. Did not check audio sync. Mits set reported it was receiving 720P signal at all times, menu or not.

Next, Switched back to DVI-Native... Checked Ch22 again. Same results as before, including Menu. Menu fine, EE of Channel 22 out of Y/C timing. Mits set reported it was receiving 480P for CH22, and 720P-720P, 1080i-1080i, menu or not.


Next, Still on DVI output, Switched to 1080i. Checked EE Ch22 again. Same out-of-time lum/ch issues. Menu also fine in this mode. Mits set reported it was receiving 1080i signal at all times, menu or not.


So, then I grabbed some YUV cables thinking to switch the box over to YUV and try again.... Found the YUV cables I was using prior to using DVI cable still attached.... Thinking that maybe this would affect the prior tests, I removed the YUV cables from 3410a and did all the above tests again, with JUST the DVI connector attached... Same results as before.

So, disconnected the DVI cable, and ran YUV back to the YUV inputs on 62525... Surprise!!! SAME Y/C Timing Issues on 480P...

Just to make certain, grabbed a DVD (professional, and one I made) and went in YUV at 480P direct into 62525.... Fine... No Y/C Timing issues...

I'm back at DVI connector, in Native, automatic. That means that when I playback or view EE a 1080i signal, 3410a outputs 1080i, playback or view EE a 720P signal, 3410a outputs 720P, and playback or view a 480P signal, 3410a outputs 480P signal....

If someone can do a real critical viewing of 480i signals recording and EE through the 3410a, with the 3410a set for YUV or DVI output, I'd like to know if you see the same Y/C timing issues on 480P as I do...

Jan,
There is a Y/C delay with the 3410 that was mentioned very early in this thread. I do notice it mostly on regular cable, but nothing in Hi-Def.

Dave

Is there any way to adjust it?????

No...only through a firmware upgrade, which I don't think will be forthcoming from LG since the player is almost a year old now.

Dave

Jan -
Interesting. I'm going to go back and look at my analog stations again - need to add 'em to my channel line up. I know I'm not seeing this problem when I look at digital (both SD & HD) material, so it may just be impacting the analog stations.

I believe my comments, "Can it be adjusted" was a little tongue in cheek....

Of course it is a firmware problem....This should be brought up to them for a firmware upgrade.....

Excuse me... but do You mean you folks knew about this for nearly a year and did nothing to try and get it fixed?

Jan,

You must understand---most of the "issues" discussed with this machine in its infancy involved total failure. Y/C timing on analog was not a high priority.

HUH?????

Getting Luminance and Chromanance in time is a LOW PRIORITY?

Therefore, getting Digital Audio in time with Video is a Low Priority too?

If you were a Beta Tester on this, and didn't report it because you thought it was "Low Priority" You didn't do your job!

If you didn't report this problem, or didn't follow up with them on these problems: You didn't do your job!

These are basic video problems, not "Subtleties" or new features. Outputting Video in time with itself and audio in time with video isn't an "OPTION".... It isn't a "FEATURE", it isn't "SOMETHING SPECIAL".

IN TIME LUMINANCE AND CHROMANANCE, and AUDIO IN TIME WITH VIDEO (Lipsync) IS NOT AN OPTION, IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS "REQUIRED" FOR "ACCEPTABLE OPERATION".

Seeing that evey HD product I've ever encountered goes out of it's way to premote the higher picture quality that their product provides.....

How can out of time video and out os sync audio become a selling point??

If you have failed to report these problems..... Please post who I should contat at LG, so I can make them aware of this problem...

This isn't something special....This is Basic Operations.....

Originally posted by Jan J
HUH?????

Getting Luminance and Chromanance in time is a LOW PRIORITY?

Therefore, getting Digital Audio in time with Video is a Low Priority too?

If you were a Beta Tester on this, and didn't report it because you thought it was "Low Priority" You didn't do your job!

If you didn't report this problem, or didn't follow up with them on these problems: You didn't do your job!

...

If you have failed to report these problems..... Please post who I should contat at LG, so I can make them aware of this problem...

This isn't something special....This is Basic Operations.....

Jan,
Ha, ha, ha, ha (etc)... You must be kidding...

I hate to burst your bubble, but no one on this forum was a beta tester. We all paid actual (real) money to purchase the 3410a. For a while our biggest concern was actually finding someone at LG who knew about the 3410a. Finding someone who knew the technical end was extremely frustrating at times.

I personally spent a few hours on the phone and email talking with second level LG folks. I was never able to talk with the actual people (probably in Korea) who designed the 3410a.

The good part about that was we were able to find out about *some* of the changes for each rev of firmware. To the best of my knowledge LG has never released a full change list for any of the 3410a firmware updates.

That said, you should know that some of us believe that the 3410a production may have already been finished. Unless there is some type of Guide or PSIP update that keeps the 3410a from working (producing a picture) I would be very surprised if there is another firware update for the 3410a (but I have been wrong before). It has been almost a year from the 3410a's release, which likely means that product is over 1.5 years old from development.

I tried to get a firmware update so that timer recordings could be made using the AV1 and AV2 inputs for non-cable customers without any success.

Basically the bottom line with the 3410a is to keep the unit as it functions or return it. This was not always true since they did fix some bugs in its first few months of release (early 2004), but seems to be true now. BTW, this is much better than the way Samsung handles issues (see the various Samsung SIR-T165 threads on the HDTV Hardware forum for a painful lesson in how to make a situation worse).

You are (obviously) welcome to try to get this fixed. I was much more successful in finding knowledgible people via email than by phone. The email can be sent using the standard LG website. There is no single person to contact. Good luck! Please let us know if you have any success.

When you talk to the customer service people, you'll likely need to explain what every one of the terms you have written is (s-video, EE, YUV, etc). Until I made it one level up, I couldn't even find someone who knew what a UPS is (other than the delivery service). Have patience - you have much more knowledge than they do...

In the 3 weeks I've had this unit, I discovered them within the first week.
I only started posting here after informing LG support of these issues.
I approached them on this 2 weeks ago... They could neither confirm nor deny the issues I've mentioned.... So I started doing a search on this product via Google, and that's how I encountered this thread...

There are 2 other issues I'd like to address regarding TV Guide.

There are insufficient Logo's to fully program the TV Guide with the channels off cable or over the air here in Chicago.

There is only one WB Logo, which could be either SD or HD, but not both.In order to do HD I need 2.
CBS, NBC, ABC and PBS have 2 Logo's each, but NBC needs 3 and ABC 4 to account for the channels they presently transmit.
Another PBS station in Chicago, WYCC, has only one logo, and I need a 2nd for the HD WYCC Station... Reason for needing both is they do not always transmit the same program on both channels.
This lack of Icon problem is not limited to just terristerial transmissions, either...
On Cable we have The Oxygen Channel. Wife wants to record it daily, but there is no Icon in TV Guide with which to do so... I'll bet if I look further, there will be other channels on Cable or Terristerial that are needed, too.

I broght this up to LG Support, and they say it is a Gemstar Issue, and of course, Gemstar doesn't have a phone number that isn't a phone tree.

With all the bitching I've been doing on this product, I must say the premise for the product is good, just poorly implemented. I hear the box cannot be updated without a trip to the MFG.

I just upgraded the firmware in my TV last week... With as much of a complex box as the 3410a is, you'd think someone would have thought about making a simple bugfix possible.

I am sticking this thread at the top of the forum for convenience.

Thanks Andy,

You have to walk a mile in our shoes before putting us down for trying to salvage our purchases. It seems a long time ago now when we were fighting the LG wars. Thank God we persevered. I am very happy with my unit. I use it within strict expectation boundaries. It is the best method of timeshifting OTA HD that I have encountered.

Jan -
Any chance you can describe what you're seeing as your video problem? I did a quick check last night and looked at the local PBS station's analog signal on a 100" screen through the 3410A (using component cables and the digital audio cable) and the same station on a smaller screen via my VCR. I do not see much wrong with the 3410A's output - other than the differences in size and the differences in TVs. And I do not find an out of synch audio problem. I am using the 720P output.

I have one of the original shipments of 3410A's with the 1.12 firmware. I'll also see if there is anything else different I'm doing that may impact things.

Jan -
Are you saying that you are not tuning in those stations? Or are you saying that you have tuned them in and they do not show up in the guide?

The guide is the 3410A's blessing and it's curse. When the guide works it makes life very simple. When it messes up, it is a true pain. It usually works great for me but I appear to be lucky. For example, I've 5 OTA separate PBS (2, 10, 11, 44, 45) stations and 3 ABC stations (5, 8, & 9). Each of the PBS stations has a number of sub-staions (2-0, 2-1, 2-2). 2-0 and 2-1 appear in the guide, but 2-2 does not.

We are at Gemstar's mercy when it comes to the guide. Earlier in this thread there was mention that LG setup someone in their tech support to investigate Gemstar problems we were having. I don't know what was resolved, however.

The icons and all of the guide data comes from data downloaded from the Gemstar system. The 3410A implements this data in apparently the same way that all Gemstar devices do. More and more electronic devices are advertizing that they use the Gemstar guide, so I bet there will be some improvement in the system (or there will be an uproar).

This isn't much help, but one thing that you may want to try to do is change your zip code (and rescan all the stations in your area) to one that is closer to the stations that are not in your guide. This may allow your 3410A to interpret the data differently and add more station icons. When I give the 3410A a Boston zip code it comes up with 6 different cable company options and each of these options results in a different set of stations in my guide. BTW, I find (if I change zip codes) that it is best to remove all found stations before I rescan.

Originally posted by Jan J
There are insufficient Logo's to fully program the TV Guide The logos are not used to program the TV Guide. Single logos can be assigned to multiple channels since you get channels from multiple sources. Gemstar's information is what is used for the TV guide. I have channels in the guide with no logo. I have logos for channels that do not show up in the guide.

I am running FW 1.15

Originally posted by Jan J
I'm using Native so I get the least amount of re-processing of the image, such that I introduce the minimum of artifacts from my output selection. For the least amount of re-processing you should use the 720p out (the native rate of your display). The scalar in the LG surpasses that in the Mits from my observations.

(720p input to the Mits bypasses the Mits scalar, all other inputs are rescaled to 720p via AMVP2 scaling).

Want to thank all for the suggestions..... I know I came into this thread like a house-afire, but I've been living this box to it's fullest for the past three weeks..... and I'm a bit frustrated, as I assume you were earlier this year.
I will try and take a picture showing the Lum/Chroma offeset, hopefully a color CG beside the 3410a Menu, so as to show both simultaneously.... that will take a day or two... Is there a file size limit for uploaded pix files?

Regarding channels... I can receive the channels in question, but there is no Logo's or channel call signs to assign them to in the TV Guide.

Since most of the problem I have are for local channels, let's try this...
For example.... Has anyone been able to find an OXYGEN Logo?
None here, and I have that channel on cable that I would like add for that.

To re-iterate: I havemultipe channels that I can receive, but no Logo's to put it to... in the TV Guide.

On the off air side: WB in Chicago is WGN. They transmit one SD and two HD signals. I can receive them all, but I only get one WB logo in TV Guide.

I get 2 Logo's for CBS, and I have one for SD, other for HD.
I get 2 Logo's for NBC, but there are 3 NBC channels, one SD, 2 HD
I get 2 Logo's for ABC, but there are 4 ABC channels, one SD, 3 HD
I get 1 WYCC Logo, but there are 2 WYCC channels, one SD, 1 HD

Let me tell you, I know what it can be like to have a Gemstar/TV Guide problem.. I was greeted every day with a "STEP 5, Select your channels" menu that scrambled my channel selections every morning for over a week. It took me 20 min each day to re-program, until someone at LG support gave the code of my box to Gemstar.... It's been OK since Dec 21.
I've been told that it was something to do with my Zipcode (60076) having incorrect or scrambled data at the Gemstar end.

In an attempt to try and do a work around for the "missing Icons" problem, Once I used an un-available (For my cable system) Logo and turned it on in the list, and assigned WGNDT1 to it (9-1). Later that evening, we programmed in a record, even though it didn't have a listing... And the recording went off without a hitch (based upon time start--time stop)! The next day, however, the TV Guide information for the Logo was downloaded, and (of course) it didn't match the programming from channel 9-1 that I wanted.... So I know there is no way to 'fool the box'...... so it was removed.

I'll try the 720P idea in the next couple of days......

Originally posted by Jan J
...I only started posting here after informing LG support of these issues.
I approached them on this 2 weeks ago... They could neither confirm nor deny the issues I've mentioned....

...

There are insufficient Logo's to fully program the TV Guide with the channels off cable or over the air here in Chicago.
...
I broght this up to LG Support, and they say it is a Gemstar Issue, and of course, Gemstar doesn't have a phone number that isn't a phone tree.




LG Support - Based on my past experience, if you talked to LG support via telephone, they likely told you they will call back. Six months ago this was a very empty promise and never occurred for me. Using email I received responses. BTW, they could neither confirm nor deny it because they likely hadn't a clue of what you were talking about (IMHO).

Insufficient logos - Program the station using the VCR+ menu (hit the VCR+ button). This menu allows for the LG to be programmed like a VCR. Yes, this is likely a 3410a issue but as soon as you say "Guide" the response is usually to call Gemstar.

Gemstar Issue - Good luck...

Yes, this box has issues but there are no alternatives if you want a 1394 interface. Also keep in mind that LG has a corporate policy of not allowing owners to perform their own firmware updates. We argued with LG about that as well. But, they do pay for shipping to return the unit for a firmware update. Also there is no such thing as an easy software fix. Industry standards are approximately one new introduced bug for every 10 bugs that are fixed - and that is with companies that know what they are doing.

BTW, if you really want to see if the 3410a really has an HD problem, connect a 1394 cable to a JVC DVHS recorder (one of the two new DVHS decks for DVI/HDMI) and see if the same problems are still seen and heard during live broadcasts (not recorded on the hard drive / tape). If you still see/hear the problems through the JVC then the problems aren't with the 3410a. As I'm sure you know, the 1394 transmission is bit-for-bit what is being sent by the station.

I don't have an HDVTR, the 3410A was the reason for not going that route!!! Has anyone --- Is there any way to do a 1394 video/audio transfer to video editing software? Such as Premiere Pro? I've got that, and could do a screen capture via firewire cable.... or, maybe by moving the 3410a to the computer room....

Has anyone tried connecting it this way (PPRO?).



I'm fighting these issues from multiple directions.....

Originally posted by Jan J
I don't have an HDVTR, the 3410A was the reason for not going that route!!! Has anyone --- Is there any way to do a 1394 video/audio transfer to video editing software? Such as Premiere Pro? I've got that, and could do a screen capture via firewire cable.... or, maybe by moving the 3410a to the computer room....

Has anyone tried connecting it this way (PPRO?).



I'm fighting these issues from multiple directions.....

Actually you really aren't fighting these issues - maybe the other issues but not these...

First, in order to record to a computer (using DVHSTools or CapDVHS) you'll need a DVHS recorder. The 3410a was designed to archive to DVHS only to simplify the 1394 interface. Use this forum's search function for "CapDVHS and 3410a" or "DVHSTool and 3410a" for more information (may have to use LST-3410a or some combination in the searches). You may also want to look for threads on 5C copy protection to understand why all this is necessary.

Once you have the data on your computer then you can use programs like Premiere Pro or Sony Vegas to edit the files and create JPEG or TIFF screen capture files. There are also a number of shareware/freeware programs that are referenced in this forum that perform the same function. The transfers are done using MPEG2/5C protocols not DV protocols, which is why the built-in DV capture software won't work.

Keep in mind that the 3410a is on the consumer side of prosumer hardware. A new DVHS VCR (which is not a VTR since it has a tuner built-in) may have better specs and capabilities for what you are trying to do (image quality and image capture). Costs for one of the new JVC models range from around $400 to around $1000, if you shop around.

Jan -
The fact that you've an ABC channel without an ABC logo is a clear sign to me that there is still a problem at the Gemstar end. I am not 100% sure, but I do believe I also have an OXYGEN logo. I'm writing sticky notes to remind me to look for it when I get a chance tonight.

It looks to me that the 3410A does a slightly superior job with picture quality of analog stations when I switching back and forth between my 3410A and my VCR supplying the picture. Both of them look terrible on a 100" screen, it is just that the 3410A looks ever so slightly less terrible. There is no audio delay. I am getting my analog station signals from my local cable company.

I had a thought. What is the signal strength of your analog stations? Mine is about 3/4 of the maximum.

Does the Mits have a firewire connection? I thought it did. If it does, you may want to try it. There is a whole thread about connecting firewire devices to your PC. It was sticky and at the top of this forum.

Please keep me informed about the OXYGEN logo!!!!

The 62525 supports 1394, but apparantly it is machine control, not video interface..... I've used it with my camcorder, and unfortunately, I had to connect both audio and video as well as 1394.
I could connect the Mits's 1394 to the 3410a, heck why not!!!

I'll post back later!!!

As for copy protection schemes, I'm not into that sort of stuff..... I'm just trying to troubleshoot things.....

Surprise! Video and audio gets transferred via Firewire (Port 1) to 62525... Selection is OTHER or TUNER, and with either selection, it works same way.

HDTV feeds only (no transcode from 480i)
No Menus,
Audio is slightly out of sync (I'm guessing 2-3 frames) on 1394 audio vs Digital audio (both 62525 audio from 1394 and Bose (from Digital audio out of 3410a) gives you that 'echo' sound prooving they are out of sync.

Testing continued:
If I switch back to DVI connection, call up menu, and play back a HD recording off disc, then switch back to 1394 output, I see the received HD signal, not the disc playback.

Next, Picture quality: Received both 720P and 1080i signals on all three sources: Outside Antenna thru Mits TV tuner, same channel off 3410a tuner (DVI output to HDMI input of Mits) and then flipped Mits selector switch between TV receive, DVR/DVI/HDMI, and DVR/1394.
I can't say for certain I noticed a difference between TV via Mits, or 3410a DVI, but I could tell that the 1394 connection had lost a little HF detail.
Without test signals I couldn't say more, but both 720P and 1080i were slightly less quality than TV receive, or DVR/DVI to HDMI on same display.

Made no attempt to have Mits controller learn the 3410a controller.

Does this match what you'd discovered?

Jan,
If you are comparing the OTA feed into the Mits and the feed coming out of 1394 from the 3410A, there will be an ever so slight delay in that the 3410A is processing the information and sending it out via firewire which will take a little time (2 or 3 frames maybe :-))

Dave

I expected as much..... Makes sense!

But I did notice the 1394 output was a bit out of sync....

Any way of getting a playback out the 1394 output?

I don't have any 1394 equipment to test it with.

Dave

I wasn't clear.... Is there a way to get the Hard Drive playback to go out the 1394 ouput?

Originally posted by Jan J
I wasn't clear.... Is there a way to get the Hard Drive playback to go out the 1394 ouput?

Yes, go into the "Prog List" and move the cursor over the program you want to send out the 1394 port. Hit "Down Arrow" and then move down the menu until you see "DVHS out". Hit "Select" again and the rest should be self-explanatory.

A valid archiving device must be seen by the 3410a before the "DVHS Out" option will be activated. The "1394" indicator on the 3410a's front panel will light when a 1394 device is attached and communicating. This doesn't mean it is a valid device for archiving, just that the 3410a has recognized an attached 1394 device.

Thanks, Andy... I'll give it a try tomorrow...

dvd recorder. i know it is not hd but it does habe a 1394 ilink port. Would this work with this unit? I have the sony and the lg 3410a (just got it) and how long does it take to get the tv guide I left it off all night and I got nothing I am in the kansas city area I have it hooked up to air and cable inputs and am recieveing the cable stations through qam.

Originally posted by psblake
dvd recorder. i know it is not hd but it does habe a 1394 ilink port. Would this work with this unit? I have the sony and the lg 3410a (just got it) and how long does it take to get the tv guide I left it off all night and I got nothing I am in the kansas city area I have it hooked up to air and cable inputs and am recieveing the cable stations through qam.

OK, let's hit the tougher question first...The Guide should at least partially load after a night assuming that the station is transmitting. Therefore you should check that you are getting a good *analog* signal - VHF and UHF. In most cities the guide comes in through analog transmissions. It is very difficult to find out which station transmits the Guide in each city, so the best thing to do is to make sure the main stations are coming in clear. Also, do *not* delete *any* stations after setting up the 3410a. It could also mean that your cable company is not transmitting. Maybe one of the other 3410a owners has more info on the K.C. area.

DVD Recorder - Obviously HD won't work due to bitrate limitations on the DVD side. For SD, unfortunately I believe the 3410a is limited to DVHS recorders and some DV camcorders. I believe the interface purposely keeps the DVD recorders from working but I have never tried it. Since you have both, it doesn't hurt to try. But, don't expect much (sorry)...

i am going to check again tonight on the guide. I figured it wont work with the sony but I will give it a shot and If I get good results I will report back!

I'm about to purchase the LG 3410A.. Anyone think it's likely that a successor to the 3410A will be realeased at CES next week? Seems about due for an update..

Originally posted by spacecadet610
I'm about to purchase the LG 3410A.. Anyone think it's likely that a successor to the 3410A will be realeased at CES next week? Seems about due for an update..

The big question will be whether it would have a compatible 1394 port? Of course even it announces next week, it is likely months before there are any on the street.

I'd buy another if it were priced low enough. Also, I would like to be able to control at least 2 tuners.

I know this must have been discussed here before but can this unit recieve from the antenna input and the cable tv input at the same time?

I have a roof antenna hooked up to it and cable tv hooked in but when I tell the setup in the tv guide I have cable it seems to lose the analog roof antenna signals although it still displays the digital if I punch in the numbers. I still have gotten nothin in the guide other then the recognition of the channels found but no info.

Anyone help?

You cannot have both cable and antenna input for analog stations. In fact when you go to the guide setup it makes you make a choice. If you tell it you've got cable connected to the 3410A it will not attempt to locate the analog stations via the antenna.

I believe you need to get in touch with LG as to why your not getting any guide data. I only get guide data if I tell the 3410A that I've connected cable - I'm too far away from whichever station is broadcasting the guide data over air.

Hyrax,
That is false. I have an antenna connected as well as analoge cable with no problems. The only thing you can't do is remap the channels that you receive over analog cable and replace them with the Hi-Def channels that you receive OTA because you won't get the guide data. I have been using both for a few months without any issues. I get ESPN HD, HBOHD, SHOTIME HD and a NBC HD feed all for free over my basic cable, and then get abc, cbs, nbc, wb, upn, pbs and pax with my antenna.

Dave

I'm confused. How do you have both analog OTA and analog cable stations? When I tell the 3410A I've got a cable attached, analog Fox comes from the cable and is channel 3-0 while Digital Fox comes OTA and is 25-1. If I tell it I do not have cable, Channel 3-0 comes in faintly as an OTA NBC station from Rhode Isalnd, analog Fox is OTA and is channel 25-0 and Digital Fox comes in OTA and is 25-1. I cannot have both 25-0 and 3-0 active at the same time as a Fox network, which is what you seem to be saying you can do.

Ahh...OK...confusion on my part. I am receiving the Digital signals OTA...not the analog ones. My bad. You are right. Sorry for the confusion.

Dave

Originally posted by spacecadet610
I'm about to purchase the LG 3410A.. Anyone think it's likely that a successor to the 3410A will be realeased at CES next week? Seems about due for an update..

LG held their CES press conference this morning. A summary is one of the other forums at:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=491492

Bottom line for recording:

1) HDD will be *integrated* into some future LG TVs

2) No new STBs announced


So, I guess this means that the 3410a remains the "current" product. I wish we knew why Best Buy sent them out on clearance if the 3410a was remaining as a current model??

I believe that the number of complaints they had to deal with probably sunk the product. Best Buy does not like to deal with returns and returns were the buzzword when it came to this product.

did my channel scans then I truned the guide info to antenna and no cable left it off for the night and Poof i have a guide now it also filled in the cable stations as well. apparantly in KC the cable does not send out the guide stuff in its high def feed. But I still have to switch it back to cable to get my cable stations.

Dumb way to have to engineer this product it has 2 inputs and you should be able to access the OTA antenna analog when the cable is recieveing channels.

BTW is there an National geographic channel option in the guide?

bestbuy had these things on clearance!? i guess i missed the boat on that.
i haven't been reading this thread enough.
currently i have the relatively nonbuggy zenith OTA HD PVR,
which i'm not even sure is available any more. i wish my TV
had more HD inputs, and that i could timeshift HD
off of cable without renting the cable company's settop box. i'd like to try an
LG3410a, and some day might read all 70 pages of this thread to see which firmware rev i should strive for... a bigger rev # isn't always better!

the industry standard is one software bug introduced for every 10 bugfixes?!
HA! which industry is that, the donut-making industry? ok, it must be he consumer electronics industry, i suppose.
i'm clearly a lousy software engineer, because my personal newbug/bugfix ratio is considerably worse than 1 new bug for every 10 bugfixes!
side effects, side effects...
"you are in a maze of twisty passages, all alike."

Wonder what our chances are that someone, perhaps LG, will produce an HD DVD recorder that will copy from the 3410A via 1394? This would be nice, but no great tragedy if it doesn't happen.

BTW, I have two units at present, a 351-series with 1.12 FW and a 451-series with 1.15 FW, and I'm really not finding much performance difference between the two. The QAM tuner in the 451 is perhaps a bit more selective (it has less difficulty tuning the 54 music subchannels on Comcast Ch. 103). Since the (open box) 351 is still under full warranty, I'll be sending it in to LG for an update as soon as the mailing label arrives. I may wind up keeping just one 3410A, and putting the other up on e-Bay when D* brings out their UCentric system.

There are a few channels that do not show up in the guide can we create/edit a channel of your own. i realize the channel would have no listing info but it would be nice to have it as a selection in the guide. an example is our local pax station in kansas city has 4 digital channels they are running in their bandwidth. The guide only recognizes one of the channels with listing data althought the tuner picks up the others.

Can i take and label a blank guide channel and edit the channel just have it listed in the guide so i can choose it? i cant find any way to do this and I think I have gone through all the editing possibilities in the guide I can find.

I'm in Skokie, Illinois NW suburb of Chicago. Here I get 6 PAX Channels, and all 6 show up in the Guide.... BUT... There are many TV GUIDE issues that I'm seeing.
A couple instances where I receive 2 chanels (1 SD, 1 HD) but only One Logo in TV GUIDE to associate them with (WB -WGN & WGN-DT) and (PBS local WYCC-SD, WYCC-DT).
But it doesn't end there... On our Cable system (Comcast-Skokie) we get Oxygen, but No Logo whatsoever.
But it still doesn't end! We receive 3 NBC Channels (WMAQ-SD, WMAQ-DT1, WMAQ-DT2) but only have 2 NBC Logos.
There are 4 ABC Channels (WLS-SD, WLS-DT1, WLS-DT2, WLS-DT3) but only 2 ABC Logos...
I could go on, but I think you get my drift.....

I have called LG support, and approached it from 'other' directions as well.
The answer's I'm getting are that it is a GEMSTAR problem. and no one will give out a Gemstar "Human answering at the end of the phone" telephone number.... All you get are Phone Trees!!!!

If anyone can get a telephone number for Gemstar, PLEASE POST IT!

I did try associating an un-used Logo and programming the channel I want to receive it on... For example, an unused Logol was programmed to receive WGN-DT (9-1), and that evening it worked perfectly (No Listings, but by telling it to record two 1/2 blocks back to back. Worked Perfectly, UNTIL next morning where the schedules for that Logo were downloaded. Obviously, these schedules did not match WGN-DT's programming, so though it was successful, it was removed.

What they need to do is supply us with some Logos we can assign local terristrial or cable channels to, and record in multiples of 1/2 hour blocks.
They seem to have the cart before the horse... Logos should be based on channels, not channels based upon Logos!

There is no question in my mind that Gemstar is the villan here. They are hiding from us, and refuse to talk.

They need to OPEN UP and LISTEN ---- BIG TIME!!!!

I have some dumb questions since I do not own one of these.

I intend to use with AVX1.

1. Does it work like a TIVO where you can pause and come back later and just watch the rest, and pause again for a beer, several times, etc?

2. Where can you buy them for the best price?

Thanks if anyone has insight here.

that I have is the lack of ability in being able to modify the guide for these channels. It is a bummer!

Really this is an amazing peice of technology just wish there were better solutions to the guide problem!

Compromise -
There are limited Tivo timeshifting abilities. For example, I pressed timeshift then pause at the beginnig of the football game yesterday. Later I came back and pressed play. I was able to skip commercials and half-time and pause the palyback again while I ran to the kitchen for some chow. The end result is that I was able to watch 2 football games back-to-back in about 3 hours. I eventually caught up with real-time, so I pressed pause and let the timeshift get ahead.

I've yet to try to do anything more compliacted than this. I'm not sure what happens if you fill the HDD - I assume it chops half hour blocks off the beginning of the session. If you stop time shifting, only the most recent half hour remains on the HDD.

Jan -
One issue you may have is that there are too many stations available to you. This may be a LG issue, or it still could be a GemStar issue. You might try eliminating some of the extra PAX & NBC and such. You might also try removing unwatched cable stations. This may clear up space for the stations you are interested in.

I looked for an Oxygen logo, but could not find it. However, I am fairly sure I did see it once when I used a different zip code. I cannot remember which zip code I use to get it tho. My local calbe company doesn't have Oxygen.

I did notice an interesting thing. Off the Menu setup options there is a way of assigning logos with stations. This does not show all of the possible logos the 3410a can use in the Guide, however. I noticed that I have a logo for WE in my guide, where as there is no WE logo off the Menu setup option - at least on my 3410a.

Did going to 720P solve your analog station problems? I found that it is the only output option that works with one of my TVs.

is a bit smoother when watching football? I have a projector and 1080i looks the best but for football 720p seems to reneder a smoother look with fast movement and watching the ball during passes.

Originally posted by psblake
that I have is the lack of ability in being able to modify the guide for these channels. It is a bummer!

Really this is an amazing peice of technology just wish there were better solutions to the guide problem!

Don't forget the VCR+ display workaround. If isn't as slick as the Guide but it is a way to record the stations without a Guide entry.

You actually don't have to hit timeshift if you want to pause live TV. Just hit pause and it will automatically start the timeshift. Hit timeshift if you want to continue watching but want to be able to rewind.

Originally posted by Hyrax

I'm going to try and explain the answers to your post separately...
Jan -
One issue you may have is that there are too many stations available to you. This may be a LG issue, or it still could be a GemStar issue. You might try eliminating some of the extra PAX & NBC and such. You might also try removing unwatched cable stations. This may clear up space for the stations you are interested in.
ANSWER: I have gone into TVGUIDE/MENU/Edit Channels, to assign the correct channel numbers (the numbers TV Guide assigned didn't match what channels they were actually on.. Something to do with incorrect or wrong Zip Code related questions, LG support said. They finally forwarded my Box ID to Gemstar, and I selected manual configure and configured all the channels as necessary). The channels we're not interested in were turned 'off', but after a few weeks of this, there was no additional Logo Icons displayed, so, NO, Eliminating some channels does not help or allow for other channel Logos to be downloaded.

I looked for an Oxygen logo, but could not find it. However, I am fairly sure I did see it once when I used a different zip code. I cannot remember which zip code I use to get it tho. My local calbe company doesn't have Oxygen.
ANSWER: Still no Oxygen Logo.

I did notice an interesting thing. Off the Menu setup options there is a way of assigning logos with stations. This does not show all of the possible logos the 3410a can use in the Guide, however. I noticed that I have a logo for WE in my guide, where as there is no WE logo off the Menu setup option - at least on my 3410a.
ANSWER: WE or WB? I'll check tonight and post what I find in Menu/Setup/Options

Did going to 720P solve your analog station problems? I found that it is the only output option that works with one of my TVs.
ANSWER: NO.. I tried DVI, YUV outputs set for Native, 1080i or 720P , and playback of 480i material (Transcoded to 480P) shows that the Chromanance and Luminance are out of time with one another, on playback or EE. Easy way to check this out is look at QVC and watch closely the Character generators (Which are all over the screen) and look at how the background scene color overlaps on the right side of the CG character (Easiest when CG is white) and if the CG is color, look at the left and top of the CG, and see how the color is out of time with luminance (above and to left). You can spot this on other video, but you have to watch quickly, and looking at a CG is easiest cause you can quickly spot it on a non-moving image....
Now, once you can spot this.... Hit the menu button, and see how the color and luminance in the Menu is is perfect time, yet the EE or playback video is out of time... If Luminance and Chromanance is in time, there should be no color fringing on left or right of vertical edges, and no top & bottom color fringing on horizontal edges.

I only see this on transcoded 480P images. Fox here in Chicago used to transmit 480P, but recently changed to 720P, co I have no off the air access to direct 480P transmissions...

Someone posted awhile back that if you are using timeshift you can also hit the record button, then the end button, then the record button again and it will save everything that was in the buffer (vs just the last 30 minutes if you hit stop). A very nice feature and it's not documented anywhere, but I've used it a few times since learning about it. If you don't want the whole buffer just use the drag/arrow keys to move the cursor to the point you want to save to.

John

Originally posted by Hyrax
Compromise -
There are limited Tivo timeshifting abilities. For example, I pressed timeshift then pause at the beginnig of the football game yesterday. Later I came back and pressed play. I was able to skip commercials and half-time and pause the palyback again while I ran to the kitchen for some chow. The end result is that I was able to watch 2 football games back-to-back in about 3 hours. I eventually caught up with real-time, so I pressed pause and let the timeshift get ahead.

I've yet to try to do anything more compliacted than this. I'm not sure what happens if you fill the HDD - I assume it chops half hour blocks off the beginning of the session. If you stop time shifting, only the most recent half hour remains on the HDD.

Since no one here appears to be from the Denver area, has anyone else experienced this with their 3410a:

My 3410 has problems recording one station (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=493746)

Critical question -- can you do pause and/or time shift recording from an external firewire source such as a DVHS or an AVX1. Or, can you ONLY record/pause/timeshift from the internal tuner?

When you connect a DVHS player to the 3410A via firewire, the 3410A allows you to control it. Pop a HD tape into the DVHS player, press the 1394 button on your remote and you can FF, RW, pause, stop, and I believe record from the tape to the 3410A unless the tape is copy protected. I've never tried recording from a DVHS player, but the manual says you can.

This is nowhere near as convient as timeshifting, it is more like dubbing.

I've no idea what the 169Time will do when connected to the 3410A. I suggest you talk to them.

OK, I just mailed 169time. They do say timer initiated recording works with both but not pause and time shift. I will post the response.

Edit: the answer was NO to live pause. But yes to pause during playback for firewire recording. Too bad.

I am using the Motorola device and it will not let me see the guide on HDTV stations. IS there the same issue with this unit? What is the cheapest anyone has found this? I figure at $20 a month for the cable version, it would take me 2 years to pay it off.

DAryl

After doing LOTS of Google'ing for information on TiVo-like devices (including information about building my own), I've come to decide that I will be purchasing something soon but haven't decided what product exactly.

I have some questions about the LG LST-3410A. For reference, I am also looking at the Toshiba RS-TX20 (no HDTV) and a Elgato EyeTV500 + new Mac mini solution (no QAM) - the LG LST-3410A has HDTV + QAM + no monthly fee which is why I am looking into it.

First, some background information...

- I do not currently have a HD Monitor. I do own a 19inch LG CRT computer monitor that has VGA in (I use a DVI-to-VGA adapter from my computer).
- I am looking to purchase an LCD computer monitor with DVI in that at least supports 1280x720.

Now, the questions (mostly all "has anyone tried this")...

1. If I connected my computer monitor to the LG LST-3410A, would it display a picture? Specifically, would it display HD?
2. If I connected an LCD computer monitor to it, would it display HD or anything?
3. Can I upgrade the hard drive? Earlier posts seemed to say yes, but weren't clear. Has anyone successfully added a new hard drive? Larger than 200GB?
4. If I connect a Firewire external hard drive, would I be able to record to the external drive?
5. If I connect a Firewire external hard drive, would I be able to transfer recordings to it?
6. Can the recordings be watched on a computer (if anyone has successfully extracted one)?
7. Are the recordings saved as the direct transport stream?

In case you couldn't tell, I'd like to use the LG-3410A to record from ATSC, NTSC and QAM, archive it to an external drive, watch it on my computer, and edit-then-burn-to-DVD (I travel a lot, so would love to pass the time on airplanes watching my favorite shows)

I really appreciate the help! Thank you!

1. If your computer monitor uses the normal RGBHV input, the 3410A will output into it at either 480P, 720P or 1080i.

2. As long as the monitor uses RGBHV , RGB or DVI inputs---YES.

3. Seems like there is a limitation on size of the hard drive simply because of the time it takes to boot up.

4. As long as you select the specific devices mentioned in the manual.

5. Same as 4.

6. I'm not sure what you are asking.

7. Depends on how you transfer them. If you transfer recordings via the composite or S, they will be in whatever format you choose. Direct Transport Stream? If you transfer via firewire.

Dinfos-
Actually, the answer to 4 & 5 is no, you cannot connect an external hard drive to the 3410A via firewire. The 3410A looks for a DVHS device when it tries to write over firewire, so you would be able to write to an external hard drive if someone came up with firmware that made an external hard drive respond like a DVHS device. As far as I know, no one does and may never.

I believe you can connect a 3410A to your computer via firewire and play recorded shows directly using VLC media player. I know you can copy record shows (as transport streams) from the 3410A to the computer using CapDVHS. In order to do either of these things you've got to follow the directions in this thread exactly:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=403695

I've done this with mixed success. It strikes me as being a lot more trouble than it is worth. I ended up buying a DVHS recorder, which you can get reconditioned at ecost for a reasonable cost. It should be noted that the 3410A does not allow daisy chaining of firewire devices, so the only firewire device you can have connected to the computer is the 3410A.

And if you read my post above, it does not permit TIVO like pause functioning on external HD firewire sources like a cable box. I am not sure about its internal source.

MR. Hif posted that you cannot output composite 480i or svideo 1080i at the same time as high def. Here is my de-lima. On my SIR-ts-160 and my Motorola 6412(which I am trying to upgrade) I can output to 480i and push out to channel 4 through coax so my SD tv's can get nfl sunday ticket, OTA digital, etc... All while I am watching HIgh Def in another or connecting room. What is the solution? My next idea was to look into the mits 6000 mentioned in earlier posts that was supposed to be available in august last year.

I browsed through all the posts and believe that generally this device is now stable with the new firmware, if I can get the dual output working, then I can ditch my cable box. ITs problem is that I cannot see the menus on an analog tv.

Thank you for the information!

I am most interested in being able to extract the recordings. It looks like I can, which is great. It's a manual process, but that's fine with me. If it turns out to not work, I will probably get an actual DVHS device.

I was also looking at the new Sony DHG-HDD250, but the lack of 1394 ports makes the LG LST-3410A much better in my mind.

(Hoping I can get one before the Super Bowl)

Where can I buy the LG LST-3410A and how much should I pay? I am in the Chicago area. Best Buy in the area does not have any new ones left. The open box ones are quite beat up.

Thank you.

Do you have good guys in Chicago. They don't stock it in Sacramento area, but had some in their warehouse. No telling what firmware version it was until you get it. I think they were priced at 699.

Paul -
If the open box ones look beat up, perhaps you can talk them down several hundred dollars. In a dark room it will look just fine and you might get a great deal. Offer 'em $450 - $350 or so.

I am not getting one beasue of the 480p out issue that is not on the cox or sony box, so ebay has one for 599 right now. New in dec with 1.15.

This sounds like what I've been looking for. I'm tired of paying too much for cable and satellite.

My only hope is that a dual tuner version will be available at some point this year and replace my comcast Moto 6412.

I'd give them $500.00 if i was given the opportunity to see if tey work.

I have a 3410A and it writes just fine to y mits 2000U. Not sure what is wron on your side. I saw you had dropped a 180 gig drive(in error of course) into the LG. What kind (ATA, Ultra ATA etc. I juststuck up a post asasking about this realm thinking your review was just that and therre were no such "accidents" I am looking at adding a 240 gig unit to mine Dont want to mess it up though so would like some detail

In one of the posts here, someone had put in a 300Gb drive...
I'm waiting for warranty to be over prior to doing anything 'accidental' in that area...
So, I'm looking for more definate information on this subject as well!!!

Originally posted by paul_j_ghosh
Where can I buy the LG LST-3410A and how much should I pay? I am in the Chicago area. Best Buy in the area does not have any new ones left. The open box ones are quite beat up.

Thank you. I bought an open box unit (351-series, 1.12 FW) at BB in November for $499 with no remote. It had a few issues, so I sent it in to LG. They shipped back a brand new 451-series w/1.15 FW, complete with remote, cables, & manual.

BTW, two 3410-A units work fine in the same room with one remote as long as they are separated horizontally by 30 degrees or more. The remote IR sensor on the unit has a pretty narrow acceptance angle.

UncD2000 - what sort of issues did you encounter? Also, how do I tell FW version and series - the thread is quite lengthy now...

Figured out version - 1.12
Still curious to know what problems you had.

I have a 4DTV with HDD200 decoder(with 169time firewire connection) and AVX1. If I start the computer and then use the 4DTV guide to select future programs to record it works. I start the video flowing (takes a bit of messing around which I don't think any programmable remote could handle) and then turn off the 4DTV receiver. When a selected show starts, the 4dtv comes on and the LG hard drive records that show. When there is a gap before the next show, there is NO hard drive recording happening until the next timed show. I selected two movies between 5 am and 11 AM and turned off the AVX1 at about 2 pm. Got only the two movies. No dead time or waste of hard drive space. Total hard drive usage only the 4 hours for the two shows. Not even more than a few seconds of black screen between the movies(which were 2 hours apart)

paul_j_ghosh -

I went to Best Buy today to see if they had an LST-3410A. They did not have any, nor did the other 4 stores in the area (Houston). I forgot to ask about any open box returns, but I did notice that their computers were showing a price of $549, which is better than anything else I've seen online for new units.

If anyone knows of any stores in the Houston area that currently have a unit (new or returned) in stock, please post. Thanks!

JanJ,

QUOTE]Originally posted by PhillyC
Try the Maxtor 5A300J0-QV 300GB HDD. The QV stands for QuickView, which is the 5400 RPM Consumer Electronics drive for DVR's. I, like you, was worried about the higher speed drives putting too much strain on the 3410A over the long haul. So I waited for the CE model. I installed one last night. It was easy. So far, it's quiet and working like a champ. [/QUOTE]

I just installed the above mentioned harddrive about 3 weeks ago, and it has been working beautifully. I'm in timeshift heaven. I'm technically challenged so I was very hesitant to 'pop the lid and fiddle' but the 120gb just wasn't big enough, so I dove in and it really was just a 'unplug ( to the outlet and the original harddrive) and replug and play'. I didn't lose any guide infromation either. Good luck.
joe

My 300GB Maxtor QV is still working flawlessly after several months. You can't beat the nearly 40 hours of HD storage.

I just ordered one from buy.com. Had to be careful since there seem to be two different units going under the same number. One has ultraATA @7200 rpm but the same number designation. Strange!

Originally posted by paul_j_ghosh
Figured out version - 1.12
Still curious to know what problems you had. (1) Frequent loss of Guide info, requiring another setup and overnight wait. (2) Frequent lockup with the well-known "Invalid entry" message, requiring brief unplug to reset unit.

The replacement 451-series unit with 1.15 FW was quite satisfactory, so I decided to buy another 3410A from BB aroung Thanksgiving. Again, the 351 was all they had. This one had the same problems, although much less frequently. I got LG to send me a shipping label for this one as well, and I'm currently awaiting the replacement, which hopefully will be another new 451-series. (Paul, 351 & 451 are the first 3 digits of the serial number).

Obviously I like the 3410A, since I could have bought the HD Tivo for a bit less than the total of the two LGs. The features of the 3410A work out better for me, but when D* brings out the UCentric system in a year or so, I may wind up getting into that and putting one of the LGs up for sale.

Originally posted by dinfos
paul_j_ghosh -

I went to Best Buy today to see if they had an LST-3410A. They did not have any, nor did the other 4 stores in the area (Houston). I forgot to ask about any open box returns, but I did notice that their computers were showing a price of $549, which is better than anything else I've seen online for new units.

If anyone knows of any stores in the Houston area that currently have a unit (new or returned) in stock, please post. Thanks!

BB stopped selling the LST-3410A about 6 months ago and closed them out at $549. Most were floor demo PVSs that had old firmware. Some were open box returns.

-Robert

When changing out the hard drive, did it fit exactly in the same space as the original HD or did you modify the mounting hardware? Does the Available Time accurately reflect the additional HD capacity? What would happen if you used a 7200 RPM drive versus the 5400 RPM unit? Can you go even higher in capacity?

The Maxtor fits perfectly with no modifications. The time/space is shown accurately.

Someone said that the 7200 RPM might actually cause problems by being too fast. Maybe heat would be an issue. AFAIK, all current CE drives are 5400 RPM. There must be a reason, so I'd stick with that.

I have been told that the 7200 rpm drives draw more current which overloads the power supply, generated more heat form the power supply and the 7200 rpm drive itself runs hotter.

-Robert

Originally posted by DTV TiVo Dealer
I have been told that the 7200 rpm drives draw more current which overloads the power supply, generated more heat form the power supply and the 7200 rpm drive itself runs hotter.

-Robert

I use a WD 250GB 7200 rpm. No power supply issues. Any heat issue was addressed by adding fans on top of the unit. The fans only start when the heat passes a certain temp (don't remember the temp from memory). Except for the summer time (Houston summer) the fans very rarely start.

I haven't had any 3410a problems in almost a year. The only strange thing was that the Guide entry for Alias was changed from 8PM to 8:05PM start time. I'm guessing they used a new ID number for the 8:05PM start time, so my previous "record always" got wiped. Luckily I caught this the morning of the show, so the 8:05PM version was added in plenty of time.

I don't have my ordered 300 gig Maxtor QV drive yet, but I am having some trouble getting the 3410 to see the video via the AVX1. I am using the latest "E" version of software in the AVX1. When I first started to use it, it took a couple(2 or 3 maybe) of on off cycles of the firewire connection to get video flowing. Now it takes me about 15 minutes to get thigs going. I was previously able to record "off time" shows by simply scheduling them in the 4dtv guide. (only did it twice but it seemed to work) The 3410 would "wait" for a show to start via the guide, record it and actually wait to record the next scheduled show with no "black screen" in between shows an hour apart. I could schedule a few movies via the 4dtv guide, then start video flowing via the firewire connection then turn off the 4dtv. When the scheduled show was to start, the 4dtv would turn on and tune to the station and the firewire connection begin recording signal. This is why I was so anxious to get the bigger hard drive.

Now the problem. My 3410 is starting to lose contact with the video flow and fails to record even a total movie. Tried with the 4dtv just left on and no schedule, just straight out record. I am losing the signal within the hour, or at times within 2 hours, thus not one whole movie gets recorded. When I first started to use it, it took a couple (2 or 3 maybe) of "on off" cycles of the firewire connection to get video flowing. Now it takes me about 15 minutes to get thigs going. The firewire seection remote button also sometimes does not turn it on and off to do the cycles.
Anyone with this setup that has any ideas, I would be grateful. I am trying to record again(missed most of the "james bond weekend" on Encore HD but two are left and in recording now)(I hope) so I can't get to the 3410 serial number without maybe pulling a wire. I just got it this december so I don't know if it is the latest firmware version or not. As I understand it, the first digits of the new firmware are the start of the SN 4xxx. I can check it out once the unit records or fails to do so this evening. IF it is a 3410 problem, I hate to open it up and stick in the new drive Wednesday when it arrives if I might need warranty service.

I am happy to report that connecting mulitple D-VHS decks to the LG works just fine. The manual states that 1394 daisy-chaining is not supported (and it isn't). It also warns not to connect two of the same type of devices at the same time (hub&spoke). With version FW 1.15, two D-VHS decks connected simultaneously works nearly flawlessly.

I now have a JVC 30k and a Mits 2000 connected to the firewire ports on the LG. I am able to choose which deck to control when I hit the 1394 button on the remote. Also, when I want to dump from the hard drive to DVHS, it gives me the option to choose which deck to dump to. The only thing that doesn't work is 1394 repeating. Meaning, when I play from one DVHS I cannot record the stream on the other (the other still gets the stream from the LG's tuner). I have to directly connect the DVHS decks if I want to dub deck to deck.

The LG has been perfect for my needs. I'm still debating upgrading the hard drive (I actually got ripped of on ebay for a 300GB Maxtor a couple months ago). A friend of mine upgraded to a new 400GB and it is working fine so far (knock on wood).

Originally posted by Bill Shenefelt
I just got it this december so I don't know if it is the latest firmware version or not. As I understand it, the first digits of the new firmware are the start of the SN 4xxx. I can check it out once the unit records or fails to do so this evening. IF it is a 3410 problem, I hate to open it up and stick in the new drive Wednesday when it arrives if I might need warranty service. If you still have the original carton, you will find the serial number on the outside. Those beginning 351- have the old 1.12 FW, while the 451- models should have the 1.15 version.

I had originally planned to upgrade to a larger HDD, but instead bought a second 3410A for $499. More expensive than the upgrade, but there are a lot of things you can do with two independent units that are impossible with one. As I noted above, there's no problem operating two units in the same room as long as they're separated horizontally by 30 degrees or so. My total of 240 GB is plenty for my usage. The nominal HD capacity of 12:15 on a standard 3410A is really conservative considering that 61-62 minutes from a 1080i source consumes around 8 GB. It's even more conservative if you record anything from 720P sources like ABC or Fox, which seems to require less than 6 GB/hour.

I will be very interested to find out if the LG BH-6900 Blu-Ray recorder will be recognized by the 3410A as an approved 1394 device. Since the BH-6900 has its own 160 GB HDD, this would get me up to 400 GB total, plus the ability to record to disc if the devices will interface.

Mark -

Nice to hear that you can have two DVHS decks attached at once. I may look for a used Mits.

With your DVHS decks, are the recordings exactly the same as what you have on the 3410A? I'm trying to figure out if I've got a few bad tapes or if there is something else causing problems. I've got some recordings on my 3410A from marginal sources (signal is in the middle of the range). I see a lot of dropouts and smearing when I dump them to tape that I do not see when I play them directly on the 3410A. However, when I do play them on the 3410A (off the HDD), I do have a lot of bad sections with video breakups and audio dropouts. So there are problems with the recordings on the 3410A, it is just that the D-VHS recordings appear a fair amount worse than the recording on the 3410A.

The really odd thing about this is that there are no obvious audio or visual problems if I just view the show 'live' and do not record it (timeslipping also causes problems).

Maybe this is why Best Buy dropped the 3410a?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5008046#post5008046

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
I A friend of mine upgraded to a new 400GB and it is working fine so far (knock on wood).

Marc, which modle 400g drive did you friend use for the upgrade?

Thanks,

James

Can someone tell me what is better about the 3410a as compared to the DVR10?

Any way to improve the angle at which the remote works? The unit will quite frequently miss the Pronto remote signal unless pointed almost directly towards it.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Marc Alexander
I A friend of mine upgraded to a new 400GB and it is working fine so far (knock on wood).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by wookatok
Marc, which modle 400g drive did you friend use for the upgrade?

Thanks,

James Seagate BARRACUDA 7200.PLUS 400GB PATA 3.5LP 8MB 8.5MS 7200RPM

Originally posted by paul_j_ghosh
Any way to improve the angle at which the remote works? The unit will quite frequently miss the Pronto remote signal unless pointed almost directly towards it. Hmmm...I had similar angle problems with the supplied LG remote. I have no problems now with the Harmony 668. It even works if I point it at the ceiling or off the back wall.

Originally posted by Hyrax
With your DVHS decks, are the recordings exactly the same as what you have on the 3410A? For the most part yes, they are exactly the same. I have had occassions in which a pristine recording on the hard drive glitches on the DVHS (Pulp Fiction - #&%!!). I have since stopped recording with the JVC 30k and use the Mits primarily for recording now. I do believe that glitched recordings will have its problems amplified when dumped to DVHS and played back. This may be what you are experiencing. I don't dump glitched recordings to DVHS (unless the glitches are very minor and infrequent).

Marc-
I do believe that glitched recordings will have its problems amplified when dumped to DVHS and played back.

That seems to be exactly what I am seeing. I rarely get a 100% glitch free football game, but usually the problems are minor. It seems my problems are from material that is sent out with a marginal signal strength - and this is usually Cable HD stuff.

Thanks for the information.

Originally posted by Compromise
Can someone tell me what is better about the 3410a as compared to the DVR10?

I don't know too much about the DVR10, so I have a difficult time making a comparison. However, the 3410a can archive to DVHS via firewire, doesn't require an RCA-protocol firewire connection, starts with a 120GB HDD (upgradable) and has the TV Guide listings. As I said before, I really don't remember if the DVR10 has any of those features.

The DVR10 is just a digital recorder, it has no tuner to decode any cable, OTA or satellite programming. You can only connect to it via the fire-wire.

The LG LST-3410A is a HD ATSC OTA and HD cable Clear QAM tuner and HD digital recorder.

-Robert

Can someone take a multi-meter to your demo pin an let me know the pin out? I bought a refurb and it didn't come with the demo pin. Now my guide data is hosed and I've been unable to recover it. Hoping the demo pin trick will help.

Thanks,
Chris

The pin shorts the terminal inside.

You can access the Demo via the menus....

He does not wish to access the Demo, he wants to reboot the unit.

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
Hmmm...I had similar angle problems with the supplied LG remote. I have no problems now with the Harmony 668. It even works if I point it at the ceiling or off the back wall. The narrow acceptance angle works to your advantage if you are operating two 3410A units in the same room. With my pair about 30 degrees apart horizontally I can control either separately, or with the LG remote pointed halfway between, I can send a command to both if desired.

Originally posted by TempestII
Can someone take a multi-meter to your demo pin an let me know the pin out? I bought a refurb and it didn't come with the demo pin. Now my guide data is hosed and I've been unable to recover it. Hoping the demo pin trick will help.

Thanks,
Chris I was experiencing frequent loss of guide data with my actual Zipcode entered. I tried entering the Zip of a neighboring community with the same Comcast system, and for some reason this solved the problem.

Originally posted by kucharsk
Since no one here appears to be from the Denver area, has anyone else experienced this with their 3410a:

My 3410 has problems recording one station (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=493746)

Yes! I can watch, but can't record one station, WIFR-DT from Rockford, IL.
All my other stations (I'm all OTA here) record fine. Very frustrating! Here's my earlier posts on this problem:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4578271#post4578271

and

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4581987#post4581987

Apparently there's somthing bogus in their PSIP that the 3410 can't handle. I am hoping that the new PSIP compliance deadline of Feb 1 will force them to clean up their act - then maybe it will work.
You may have a similar problem, good luck!

Originally posted by MrHifi
The pin shorts the terminal inside.

Thanks.

I was experiencing frequent loss of guide data with my actual Zipcode entered. I tried entering the Zip of a neighboring community with the same Comcast system, and for some reason this solved the problem.

I'll try using another zip after I reset the unit.

What does anyone know about the "Diagnostic Mode"

I've entered it once, in an attempt to get TV Guide fixed, and it had 32 pages of data, most of it un-decipher-able.

Can anyone shed any light on this? Thanks!!!

Jan

Let me toss out another idea....

Is it possible to transfer (Via Firewire) HD material created on an edit system like Premiere Pro (once V1.51 comes out) into the 3410A?

It isn't copyrighted material (I created it) and just want to transfer it to the 3410A so as to play it back on the HD screen??????

Originally posted by Jan J
What does anyone know about the "Diagnostic Mode"

I've entered it once, in an attempt to get TV Guide fixed, and it had 32 pages of data, most of it un-decipher-able.

Can anyone shed any light on this? Thanks!!!

Jan


Jan, how did you get into Diagnostic Mode?

Thanks,

James

Is there a way to restore a deleted recording? I discovered clip edit works the other way around... keeps what you select!

I have a 169time modified HDD200, A Lg 3410A(latest firmware) and an AVX1(169time) with E software version. The 4dtv timer will turn on the 4dtv to "watch " a program when you select the program in the guide., and then turn off the 4dtv receiver. (Mine is the newer 4dtv and the screen shows the guide etc thru the hdd200 - just for reference) I got the firewire connection going and the" video flowing" then turned off the 4dtv(not the HDD200) and when the program(S) were scheduled to show, the 3410A recorded only those programs timer selected. GREAT. I had thought maybe it would record blank, using up hard drive space between selected movies, but it did not. Better yet! Now my problem. I cannot seem to keep my firewire connection live anymore. Seems to disconnect after less than 2 hours. I cannot record a whole movie even when the 4dtv is left on (not even using the timer function. I just bought a new 300 gig(not yet installed)hard drive for it and it won't be of much use if I cant even keep the system recording. Any thoughts??

The 920 and 922 4DTV receivers output video, audio and RF whenever the unit is plugged into AC. Do you have any dropouts on the 4DTV signal. I am sure you are aware of the Encore/Starz problem with certain 92*/HDD200 combinations. If you are getting any type of dropout in the data stream, the 3410A will shut off.

More information on TV Guide Diagnostics.... I'm not at home now, so can't post the info... it's at home.

I was having considerable problems with TV Guide, and they had me go into the Diagnostic mode... It was a series of number keystrokes off the remote keypad when in TV Guide...

It brought up 32 separate pages of text Black on Grey background.

Once I was in the diagnostics, the fellow said that by going into this mode, and doing nothing (times out after a while) Would force the TV Guide system to attempt to fix itself, and the next evening you may get no data.
I was unable to get any more information out of the fella, cause he didn't know anything more about it either...

I took digital photos of each page, and have them stored, and have looked at them, but, I can't make anything out of them...

Whatever this is, it is specifically for TV Guide.... not the DVR.

Anyone have any more detailed information????

Do you remember the specifc number sequence to get into diag mode?

John

Originally posted by Jan J
More information on TV Guide Diagnostics.... I'm not at home now, so can't post the info... it's at home.

I was having considerable problems with TV Guide, and they had me go into the Diagnostic mode... It was a series of number keystrokes off the remote keypad when in TV Guide...

It brought up 32 separate pages of text Black on Grey background.

Once I was in the diagnostics, the fellow said that by going into this mode, and doing nothing (times out after a while) Would force the TV Guide system to attempt to fix itself, and the next evening you may get no data.
I was unable to get any more information out of the fella, cause he didn't know anything more about it either...

I took digital photos of each page, and have them stored, and have looked at them, but, I can't make anything out of them...

Whatever this is, it is specifically for TV Guide.... not the DVR.

Anyone have any more detailed information????

Update on what LG calls the 3410A "swap program": In December I sent in my first 351-series unit and received back a brand new/sealed carton 451-series (1.15 FW) complete with remote, cables & manual. I sent in my other 351-series last week, and just received the replacement which is a refurbished 351 with 1.15 FW but no remote, etc. This is fine since I have 2 remotes (and just use 1 since both DVRs are in the same room). The refurb seems OK (after 24 hours it's doing fine with the guide data, and no "Invalid entry" messages so far). Like the two other 351s I have had, the QAM tuner has a problem with the 54 Music Choice channels on Comcast Ch. 103, and shows "no signal" for several seconds before locking in. The 451 has no problem with Ch. 103 and locks in immediately.

For anyone with Comcast in NW Chicagoland having problems with guide data vanishing, give 60004 Zip (Arlington Heights) a try. For some reason this solved the guide problems I was having using my own Zipcode.

I don't know what effects this causes! I can't explain this enough!!!

This is the information I was given.... In Total!!!

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS DOES, OTHER THAN TO DISPLAY 32 PAGES OF
TEXT...

I DON'T KNOW WHAT CAN OR CANNOT BE CHANGED ON THESE SCREENS.

I'VE HEARD THAT DOING THIS WILL CAUSE YOU DATA DOWNLOAD TONIGHT TO BE 'DIFFERENT' AND INCOMPLETE.

DO THIS ON YOUR OWN 'HOOK' DON'T BLAME ME!!!

"Still working on accessing GEMSTAR directly, I’ll also fwd. your case to our higher level techs as well for further assistance. Again I do apologize for the inconvenience. I provided the following options in the meantime for diagnostics on unit to make certain it isn’t the receiver itself encountering the issue. Thanks again for your patience.

- To run diagnostics, go to the messages menu and enter 753159852. The code is actually a pattern of going diagonally on the keypad both ways and then straight down the center of the keypad."

Hi - yesterday someone asked about the difference between the 3410A and the DVR10, and Robert responded that the latter is only a recorder, with no tuner etc. If I understand correctly, it is also a recorder that can only record directly from a firewire equipped TV, not from a tuner (at least that seems to be what the DVR10 manual says). However, amazon dot com states that it can record from digital receivers, which seems to contradict the maual.

So what is right about the DVR10?

And as for the 3410A, is there any other receiver/hard-drive combo that is presently available for OTA use? (I know the upcoming Sony was SUPPOSED to be available by now but isn't.)

Tony


Thanks - Tony

so... did anyone make any sense out of the TV Guide diagnostics?

I checked it out but I think you would need help from someone at LG to make any real sense out of it. I have never been able to get guide data on mine and just use VCR+ and timeshift for everything. With all the guide problems people report I don't know if it's a good thing or bad thing that I don't get the data. When I first got the unit I made a number of calls to LG to try and resolve the issue and no one ever brought up this diag menu, so maybe they are getting better at figuring out guide issues. Has anyone had tech support actually use any of this data to fix a problem yet?

John

Originally posted by Jan J
so... did anyone make any sense out of the TV Guide diagnostics?

Originally posted by avnstf
Hi - yesterday someone asked about the difference between the 3410A and the DVR10, and Robert responded that the latter is only a recorder, with no tuner etc. If I understand correctly, it is also a recorder that can only record directly from a firewire equipped TV, not from a tuner (at least that seems to be what the DVR10 manual says). However, amazon dot com states that it can record from digital receivers, which seems to contradict the maual.

So what is right about the DVR10?

And as for the 3410A, is there any other receiver/hard-drive combo that is presently available for OTA use? (I know the upcoming Sony was SUPPOSED to be available by now but isn't.)

Tony


Thanks - Tony

Tony,
I have a DVR10. I have it connected to my integrated Mits. I wrote a review of it. Search on DVR10 in the HDTV recorders forum. I do have a more stable version of firmware now.
I believe the DVR10 would work with a firewire equiped Digital receiver if the receiver supported the AVC that the DVR10 requires. Ironically you could connect the LG3410A to the DVR10 because the LG3410A supports AVC (I think this is the acronym, I did not pull out the manual) and DVHS decks.
I believe the LG is much better many more features, guide, trick play, if you can live with the not being able to watch a recorded show while you are recording a different one. That was the killer for us. Space is limited on the DVR10 to 80gig, 8hr51 minutes which is a big downer. And you can upgrade the LG disk drive and not the DVR10 and least I know no one who has even tried besides me. Price point on the LG is about double the DVR10 if you can find one still.

I would have been interested in the Sony, but delays and the price is just going to be too high. So I decided to roll my own as they say and build a HTPC HDTV PVR with MCE 2005. Price will be more, but we will also get more since we have many digital pictures and video of our girls not to mention 12gig of digital music.
Bryan

The problem I had was every day I had to reprogram all my TV Guide channels... Each Day I was met with "Step 5 -- Select the Channel alignments for your area"

I was told by just going into this diagnostics, that TV Guide would know that something is wrong, and possibly reset it.... That is why the data you may receive tonight won't display properly....

As luck would have it, the Re-program every day problem was approached by this, and another path simultaneously... (informed LG support, who forwarded it on to TV Guide people, the channels I use for my Zipcode, 60076. Both of the 'fixes' were done simultaneously, and the day after both diags and the information pass to TV Guide, Via LG Support)
This Fixed my TV Guide problems!!!
(I've still got others, all of which revolve around insufficient Logo's for the channels I have on Terristerial & Cable).

But at least I don't have to re-program the proper channels to the logo's every day!!!!

I hope it helps you...

I don't recall much mention of this in these 108 pages, but isn't it strange that LG didn't put an S-video input on AV1 or AV2? Thus, if I want to timeshift/pause an NFL Sunday Ticket game that isn't on my local Fox or CBS channel, I have to use composite video from my SAT-HD300 to the 3410A. For normal delayed viewing of D* programming, I actually get better results by recording to DVD via S-video (at the 1-hr bitrate) and playing back on my upconverting DVB318. The PQ difference vs the 3410A is more noticeable from a high quality source like HDNet. I'll often use the 3410A anyway for such applications because of the convenience.

OK, so I went out an hour ago and bought the 3410A...noticed a week ago that Cricuit City had a display unit, but none available for sale, but found last night they had three in stock, and decided today I'd better get one while available. I want the unit to supplement or replace my current receiver/recorder combo, the Samsung SIRT165 with a JVC 30000 digital VCR.

But since last night some questions regarding the guide used by the 3410A occurred to me...

1. I gather that if you manually schedule items you have to leave some time between them, like some number of minutes...is that right? But I also assume that using the guide you CAN select consecutive programs for recording, and that the system just switches without turning itself off and on. So no program parts whould be lost (assuming they start and stop at the scheduled time...)

(In this respect, it should be superior to my current system, since with the Samsung you can only schedule manually, i.e., by entering start and stop times, and you have to be careful with avoiding overlapping times....this can be aeither hard or impossible, because the unit gets its times from the digital station it is currently tuned to, and those times are often incorrect!)

2. I also gather that the 3410A gets guide info from a local analog PBS station....correct? Well, what happens when all stations are digital? No more guide info? Or will it switch?

I had another issue, but it slips my mind. However, item 2 reminds me of another question, i.e., when do various mandates regarding digital stations take effect? Somewhere in the avsforum, there was mention of something taking effect this Feb. 1...any idea what? And what about other deadlines?

Lots of questions, I know, but the 2 regarding the guide and its longevity are the main ones. Thanks!

I posted this before, but no one answered....

Is there any way of using the 3410A as a record source from firewire?

I'd like to connect it to my computer, and use it as a record deck (record to).... or a source deck (playback from).

It would not have to be a real time playback or record.... Just trying to determine if it had that capability for record and playback....

Thanks....

In the "list menu" where programs recorded may be selected, a dropdown menu allows you to "dub' I can tell you it recognizes a Mitsubishi 2000 DV recorder, but whether or not it would recognize a computer I cannot say. The output to the DV recorder is via firewire though. If it thinks the computer is a DV recording device and will recognize it it should work, but would have to be tried.

Ok, it might be able to playback...
Tell me this, Bill.... can you record on the 3410a from the Mits 2000DV?

CBS in chicago has SD transmitter on channel 2, and HD is transmited on channel 3 (actual transmissions)
My 3410a will only display channel 2-1 if I manually enter 3-1.

Sometimes 2-1 in TV Guide will respond with audio/video when programmed in as 2-1, sometimes "No Signal", and when this happens, only 3-1 will work.

However, if I set the CBS logo as 3-1, the active window in TV Guide Always displays 2-1 with audio/video window, but when a TV Guide initiated record takes place, it doesn't, and replies "No Signal".

I've tried a rescan, it will recognize 2-1 as 2-1 for a while, then give the dreaded "No Signal" response.

Go figure!

Originally posted by avnstf
...
1. I gather that if you manually schedule items you have to leave some time between them, like some number of minutes...is that right? But I also assume that using the guide you CAN select consecutive programs for recording, and that the system just switches without turning itself off and on. So no program parts whould be lost (assuming they start and stop at the scheduled time...)

(In this respect, it should be superior to my current system, since with the Samsung you can only schedule manually, i.e., by entering start and stop times, and you have to be careful with avoiding overlapping times....this can be aeither hard or impossible, because the unit gets its times from the digital station it is currently tuned to, and those times are often incorrect!)

2. I also gather that the 3410A gets guide info from a local analog PBS station....correct? Well, what happens when all stations are digital? No more guide info? Or will it switch?

I had another issue, but it slips my mind. However, item 2 reminds me of another question, i.e., when do various mandates regarding digital stations take effect? Somewhere in the avsforum, there was mention of something taking effect this Feb. 1...any idea what? And what about other deadlines?


1) Once you schedule a recording, you can use the VCR+ button to look at your current scheduled recording list. When you select a schedule program from the list, you'll see the start and stop times. If you then press "Enter" (or the 3410a equivalent) you'll bring up a start before/stop after screen where you can increase the length of the recording either at the beginning or end. I usually add a minute before and after.

If the additional time interferes with another recording you'll receive an error message. Timers can be setup with consecutive but not overlapping times. As you know the 3410a only has one tuner so double-recording is not available. When I record consecutive programs I usually just use the Guide - it is easier. I've never lost any parts of either program.

2) The Guide data does not come just from PBS stations. There have been reports that some markets use ABC stations. Someone also appended a while back that they were picking up the Guide from their digital station.

I have to believe that given the amount of DTVs with the Guide that have recently been released that TV Guide already has a way to send the information over the digital channels. In most markets the Guide data is still sent just over analog.

It would be nice if TV Guide were a little more interested in customer relations. They are as close-lipped as any organization when it comes to Guide information.

3) I don't know of any upcoming Digital TV mandates that should affect the 3410a. We've already passed the timeframe where many stations started sending out the Broadcast Flag. I think the upcoming mandate just says that all standard PSIP data must be correct or something like that.

Originally posted by Jan J
I posted this before, but no one answered....

Is there any way of using the 3410A as a record source from firewire?

I'd like to connect it to my computer, and use it as a record deck (record to).... or a source deck (playback from).

It would not have to be a real time playback or record.... Just trying to determine if it had that capability for record and playback....

Thanks....

Sorry Jan, thought I already answered this...

Not directly. You have to trick the 3410a into thinking the computer is a DVHS deck. There may be some drivers available to do this (check the other computer-related HD threads) but most people trying to do this just use a DVHS deck and then transfer the 1394 connection from the DVHS to the computer.

Jan J,

Have you checked your signal strength on the 3410a on 2-1 compared to channels with stable reception?

Are you using the required VHF antenna?

Superlow number VHF stations require a lot of luck.

Even channel 2 analog reception is crummy compared to 7 & 9 in the chicago suburbs. You may not be getting enough or clean enough signal to be stable.

Good luck

Lew

Hope someone can help! I've searched this thread with little luck. The reserved light is staying on but there is no guide information and no clock data. This would be ok with me as long as I can record but since the clock is not set I cannot record, and with the reserved light on I can't set the clock! :mad:

I have tried unplugging it for a couple days with no luck. Still comes on with the reserved light lit. I don't have a demo pin, but I tried sticking a small nail in the slot to see if it would work, no dice either.

Anyone have any ideas on how I can get this damn reserved light off so I can set the clock and record the Football games today? I have version 1.12 fw.

I've never had this particular problem, but have you tried using the VCR+ (or Guide) button to get to the Schedule menu of the Guide to see of there is anything "scheduled"? If there is, then move down and select anything that is scheduled and remove it. Once your schedule is clean. your reserved light should go out, and Setup options should allow you to set your clock. (Mine is on 1.15 fw for what it is worth)

Phil

The reserved light is staying on but there is no guide information and no clock data. This would be ok with me as long as I can record but since the clock is not set I cannot record, and with the reserved light on I can't set the clock!

I posted this question in a separate thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=499900), but can anyone here record from their Fox affiliate with their 3410a? If so, could you tell me who it is so perhaps I can tell my local station to contact them and see what they have set differently on their encoders?

I have the exact same symptoms as reported here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/printpost.php?postid=4578520)...

I have no problem recording HD from my Fox affiliate here in the San Francisco Bay area. The station is KTVU analog channel 2 (DTV ch 56).

can anyone here record from their Fox affiliate with their 3410a?

I've never had this particular problem, but have you tried using the VCR+ (or Guide) button to get to the Schedule menu of the Guide to see of there is anything "scheduled"?
Yea, I've tried. Nothing happens when you press either the Guide button or VCR+ button. :(

You have probably already tried this, but have powered it up with the G-Link cable inserted instead of a "nail" (or nothing) inserted? There has got to be a better way to "reset" this thing. :confused:

There was a previous post fronm Jan J describing how to put the guide in the "diagnostics" mode using the remote.


- To run diagnostics, go to the messages menu and enter 753159852. The code is actually a pattern of going diagonally on the keypad both ways and then straight down the center of the keypad.

...It brought up 32 separate pages of text Black on Grey background.

Once I was in the diagnostics, the fellow said that by going into this mode, and doing nothing (times out after a while) Would force the TV Guide system to attempt to fix itself, and the next evening you may get no data.

Client1 -
I've seen what you describe. You need to reset the 3410A. Turn off the 3410A. Unplug it. Wait 10-15 minutes (I've never waited less than an hour, so I'm not sure how long you need to wait). Put the demo pin in the demo pin slot. Turn on the 3410A. The guide button should work (but the guide will be empty). If the guide does work, go to the setup and re-setup from scratch. Wait over night and the guide should have data.

Good luck.

Originally posted by lewlew
Jan J,

Have you checked your signal strength on the 3410a on 2-1 compared to channels with stable reception?

Are you using the required VHF antenna?

Superlow number VHF stations require a lot of luck.

Even channel 2 analog reception is crummy compared to 7 & 9 in the chicago suburbs. You may not be getting enough or clean enough signal to be stable.

Good luck

Lew

Yes, Signal strength is 4/5 way to max on all channels. 2-1/3-1 same.
Using U/V antenna 40 feet up my tower, with visual opservance of both Hancock and Sears Towers, with no obstructions. Also using Drake HighPass filter in line (no difference in Sig Strength with/without).

Antenna feeds splitter, and other feed goes to Mitsubishi 626525, which doesn't have this problem, and yes, I flipped RF Feeds from splitter.

Originally posted by alk3997
Sorry Jan, thought I already answered this...

Not directly. You have to trick the 3410a into thinking the computer is a DVHS deck. There may be some drivers available to do this (check the other computer-related HD threads) but most people trying to do this just use a DVHS deck and then transfer the 1394 connection from the DVHS to the computer.

What I'm trying to do is connect it via firewire to Premiere Pro, and see if Premiere Pro can control it as if it were a VTR.

I'd try if either was near the other here, but it isn't...

I'd like to try it as a deck.... !!

Originally posted by Jan J
What I'm trying to do is connect it via firewire to Premiere Pro, and see if Premiere Pro can control it as if it were a VTR.

I'd try if either was near the other here, but it isn't...

I'd like to try it as a deck.... !!

I don't think it will work since Premiere Pro doesn't have the knowledge on how to control an HD deck - only a DV camcorder. All 1394 is not created equal - the i.link HD controls are different than what is used with a DV camcorder.

Jan J,

It would seem that your tuner doesn't want to lock on, at least not lock on quick enough to make a recording.

This may seem silly, but, have you tried attenuating your signal? You may be getting swamped out and/or interferred with especially with 2-0 wizzing right by you.

I'm trying one more thing prior to the antenuator idea (I've a couple 6db pads). Went into menu (without TV Guide) and deleted 2, then deleted 3, then re-added 3, which immediately renamed itself 2-1. TV Guide now finds 2-1 as Channel 2 Digital, and 2-0 as Chanel 2 analog.

I'll see what it does tomorrow...


Originally posted by lewlew
Jan J,

It would seem that your tuner doesn't want to lock on, at least not lock on quick enough to make a recording.

This may seem silly, but, have you tried attenuating your signal? You may be getting swamped out and/or interferred with especially with 2-0 wizzing right by you.

After a week my refurb 351-series w/1.15 FW was doing even worse than its predecessor with frequent (1) loss of all guide data (2) partial lockup with the "Invalid channel" message, requiring a brief unplug to reset. Looks like the 1.15 update does not address these two issues. OTOH, my 451-series unit (1.15 FW) has had no guide problems, and only displays "Invalid channel" about once a month.

LG says they will swap out the refurb 351 (this is the 2003 model, they say)for a 451 (2004 model, which apparently went into production around last April). I will report back on the replacement, probably a couple of weeks from now. At that point I will hopefully have two 2004 units, which should suffice until D* unveils the UCentric system next year.

I purchased a new in the box unit last week. Brought it home, plugged it in and tried going thru the basic setup as detailed in the quick start guide.
(451 series)

First problem I ran into was the unit would no turn on when using the power button. Had to use the remote to turn it on. The power button on the unit DID turn the unit off.

The next thing I noticed was the LED display was acting very strangely. The individual digits and other indicators would seem to randomly go on and off.

I was able to run the setup and get the guide downloaded via OTA and also later via the RF cable input. The tuner picked up the locals and displayed them very well, comparable to the built in tuner on the Sony display.

After about 5 days I lost the guide listings and decided that a $700 piece of equipment should at least power on when you push the power button.

Returned the unit today for another new in the box unit. Verified at the dealer that the unit did power up correctly. (this also a 451 series)

We'll see how this unit behaves. I'd really rather have a SONY unit with an HDMI interface (vs. the DVI), but so far I can't get any firm ship dates for the HDD250/500's.

It's hard to understand why the quality control on these units is so poor. I have purchased four LG STBs (two SAT-HD300 & two HTL-HD) and two DVB318 DVD players, and none has had the slightest problem.

Originally posted by UncD2000
It's hard to understand why the quality control on these units is so poor. I have purchased four LG STBs (two SAT-HD300 & two HTL-HD) and two DVB318 DVD players, and none has had the slightest problem.

It really isn't a QC issue, which implies manufacturering problems. Almost all of the issues can be traced to design (firmware) or the input signal to the unit (the Guide data). There were a few QC issues such as heating and issues with video output ports, but the archives suggest that most of the issues were related to receiving bad Guide or bad PSIP data. Should the LST-3410a have handled that bad data better? Probably, but again that goes back to design. At least LG provided a few software updates which helped (better than the Samsung T165 mess).

Overall the unit is good as long as the input data is good. We just had an example of that Friday night with the local UPN. Recovery was just to press the power buttun on the LST-3410a and then restart.

Originally posted by Jan J
so... did anyone make any sense out of the TV Guide diagnostics?
It may have answered one question I had: what channel is it getting data from? On Page 1, Host Chan 0xA. If I interpret that correctly, that means channel 10, which is the local ABC analog station.

Originally posted by kucharsk
I posted this question in a separate thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=499900), but can anyone here record from their Fox affiliate with their 3410a? If so, could you tell me who it is so perhaps I can tell my local station to contact them and see what they have set differently on their encoders?

I have the exact same symptoms as reported here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/printpost.php?postid=4578520)...

Very rarely, I get the chattering. I thought the Hard Drive was going bad. I could turn it off and start recording manually and everything was OK.

I don't get any listings for the TR165 guide. I live near Pittsburgh, Pa and have roof VHF and UHF antennas. Is there nostation near me that posts guide info that the TR165 uses?

On the T-165, I don't believe it has a guide. I believe it can display PSIP data, however.

As for recording Fox, I am pretty sure I have been able to get good recordings from WTTG Fox 5 in Washington DC. I've never noticed any chattering. I've recorded "House" regularly, and "Point Pleasant". I think they are both fox shows. (Isn't it terrible, now that I don't have to pay attention to the station number and can just select a show in the guide to record, I have gotten so lazy I am not even certain what channel I am recording...)

The 165 has a guide, just does not load my local programming. Not sure why. Maybe it wants some info that is not being sent out OTA by local stations. It lets you select shows to record, but only if it gives "information" which it ddoes not. No big deal since the LG does that just fine. Jsut trying to get every piece of equipment to do what it is suposed to do. As for Fox, mine comes in fine on WPGH pittsburgh. Even now "Cops" is coming in HD on Sat night at 8 pm.

Refer to my CBS 2-1/3-1 post above....

By deleting both channels and manually re-entering them, the problem with it saying "NO SIGNAL" has gone away...

I waited this long before posting to make sure......

Here's a general question to any and all-

How long does it take your 3410a to lock on to in the clear QAM signals?

After power-up I can change OTA channels almost instantly, however if I channel-up to or punch-in a QAM channel directly it takes anywhere from 5 to 10 seconds to lock and display.

QAM channels that I have already waited for to lock after this power-up can then be easily, and as quickly as OTA channels, re-accessed. Powering down causes this whole process to repeat requiring QAM recordings to be made leaving the box on, thus not updating the guide.

I am on a comcast system. Could this be a signal quality issue, or is this the way your box handles QAM? (1.15)

Any ideas or suggestions would be appreciated.

Lew

Originally posted by Judy Y
On the T-165, I don't believe it has a guide. I believe it can display PSIP data, however.

As for recording Fox, I am pretty sure I have been able to get good recordings from WTTG Fox 5 in Washington DC. I've never noticed any chattering. I've recorded "House" regularly, and "Point Pleasant". I think they are both fox shows. (Isn't it terrible, now that I don't have to pay attention to the station number and can just select a show in the guide to record, I have gotten so lazy I am not even certain what channel I am recording...)

I stiil have to use the VCR+ input to schedule WTTG in Washington. My Sony Digital tuner now gets WTTG at 5.1 but not the LGE. Haven't experienced the chattering for some time.

Originally posted by lewlew
How long does it take your 3410a to lock on to in the clear QAM signals?

After power-up I can change OTA channels almost instantly, however if I channel-up to or punch-in a QAM channel directly it takes anywhere from 5 to 10 seconds to lock and display.

I am on a comcast system. Could this be a signal quality issue, or is this the way your box handles QAM? (1.15)

Lew Three different 2003 units I have had exhibited such a tuning delay on Comcast Ch. 103 here, which has 54 Music Choice channels on this single QAM channel. There are no delays on other QAM channels. My 2004 451-series unit tunes Ch. 103 with no delays.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lewlew
[B]Here's a general question to any and all-

How long does it take your 3410a to lock on to in the clear QAM signals?

I get OTA from roof antenna just as fast with non digital and digital or HD. Sound has about half to one second delay benind picture (starting up, not with respect to ongoing show. )

My exprience also. When the unit goes into one of its "slow operation" modes, it can take as much as 10 sec to lock. If I shut it off, eventually it begins to work correctly.

Originally posted by alk3997
It really isn't a QC issue, which implies manufacturering problems. Almost all of the issues can be traced to design (firmware) or the input signal to the unit (the Guide data). There were a few QC issues such as heating and issues with video output ports, but the archives suggest that most of the issues were related to receiving bad Guide or bad PSIP data. Should the LST-3410a have handled that bad data better? Probably, but again that goes back to design. At least LG provided a few software updates which helped (better than the Samsung T165 mess).

Overall the unit is good as long as the input data is good. We just had an example of that Friday night with the local UPN. Recovery was just to press the power buttun on the LST-3410a and then restart.

Here are the problems that I am frequently encounter with an early (Feb 3, 2004 build) unit (LG has agreed to swap this - I am waiting for paperwork from them). I have to reboot the unit almost every time I use it:

1. When I turn it on, the only thing on the screen (in upper right) is the logo of the last station I was watching, no picture or sound. Only the Power button on remote does anything - all other buttons do nothing.

2. During scheduled recording, clock stops updating, recording appears to continue indefinitely. When I try to stop it, no effect. No remote buttons do anything. I have to reboot. After reboot, no sign of the recording in the program list. This has happened the last few times that I have scheduled recording. I am no longer even trying to schedule recording.

3. Pressing TV Guide button has no effect. (Could this be a Gemstar problem?)

4. Once, the picture was displayed in the size and position (small, upper left) as in the TV Guide display. The rest of the screen was blank (or maybe a solid color; I'm not recalling 100%).

5. Several times, when the clock was displaying the wrong time (off by hours, not just a few minutes), I could not correct it. I go into Options/Clock and the time display is read-only (no arrows that allow me to adjust the time/date). Could this be a Gemstar problem? Manual says that you cannot change the clock after it was set by TV Guide system.

These certainly sound like firmware issues, but it seems that these have gotten worse since I purchased the unit in October.

This would be a GREAT tuner if it were not for its quirks and frequent lockups. HDTV reception is excellent. I would really like to get a unit that works!

- Michael Bate

Some of that sounds like firmware and the issues point towards a bad unit. All of what you wrote should not be typical of normal use.

Exchanging the unit and verifying it has the latest firmware is your best recourse. The LG-3410a really works well when you have a good unit (and the Guide data is accurate).

Originally posted by alk3997
The LG-3410a really works well when you have a good unit (and the Guide data is accurate).

Well, I just got a unit 10 days ago from Circuit City, and it's been working fine EXCEPT that the signal using a DVI cable to my Sony 32HS500 has a dark cast compared with that which I get from my Samsung sirt165 via high-quality component cables.

I'm still working on this issue, but haven't gotten very far with it, and wonder if anyone else has experienced something like this. I can of course adjust the colors on the Sony to brighten things up, but the result is still inferior - it's as though the full color depth just isn't coming through that DVI cable, which is the one supplied with the 3410A. However, a dvi cable is a dvi cable, supposedly, so that the digital info should be getting through if it's working. SO the issue should be either with the output from the 3410A, or the conditioning of the signal once it's in the Sony. But it shouldn't be the latter, because the only color conditioning by the Sony to the dvi signal should be the same user-controlled conditioning that is applied to the signal via component...

by the way, we had some discussion of this in a thread on the samsung 165 last week:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5059053#post5059053

Any thoughts would be welcome - Tony

Tony,
Make sure that the DVI black level is set to "normal". Also, I am not sure about your Sony, but I know that my Hitachi has a different color parameter that is used for DVI compared to component. But it is in the service menu. Just my $.02.

Dave

Originally posted by alk3997
Some of that sounds like firmware and the issues point towards a bad unit. All of what you wrote should not be typical of normal use.

Exchanging the unit and verifying it has the latest firmware is your best recourse. The LG-3410a really works well when you have a good unit (and the Guide data is accurate). I would also recommend that you ask LG to send you a 2004 unit (451-series) in exchange. My experience has been that the 2003 units (351-series), even when updated with the 1.15 FW, still have residual issues which are not present in the 2004s.

Hi Everyone
Just got my 3410A this weekend and have read all 110 pages on this thead (really) which have been very helpful to a newbe.

However I have 3 question that perhaps some one can help with -

1) Does any one know what OTS station(s) in the LA area sends the TV Guide data. As I live in Ventura (appr. 60 from LA) I get the digital OTA LA stations and only the 14 - 82 analog. LA PBS is channel 28 but the machine does not find the download info. All other networks are 2 - 13. If PBS is not sending the TV Guide data I can stop wasting time trying.

2) Can the standard VCR Plus mapping be change so that the VCR code code for analog CBS 2 (whch I do not get) would triger the recording of digital CBS 2-1, analog 4 triger digital 4-1 and so on?

3) Is upgrading the HD to the Maxtor 300 or WD 250 HD? I changed HDs on my TiVos - that is I can unscrew hold downs and unplug wires change
HD unit and the replug and rescrew but that's about my limit.

As a point of reference I have Dish* - I need not tell any body about their PVRs problems.

Thanks again.

Originally posted by GrandpaJ


Hi Everyone
Just got my 3410A this weekend and have read all 110 pages on this thead (really) which have been very helpful to a newbe.

However I have 3 question that perhaps some one can help with -

1) Does any one know what OTS station(s) in the LA area sends the TV Guide data. As I live in Ventura (appr. 60 from LA) I get the digital OTA LA stations and only the 14 - 82 analog. LA PBS is channel 28 but the machine does not find the download info. All other networks are 2 - 13. If PBS is not sending the TV Guide data I can stop wasting time trying.

2) Can the standard VCR Plus mapping be change so that the VCR code code for analog CBS 2 (whch I do not get) would triger the recording of digital CBS 2-1, analog 4 triger digital 4-1 and so on?

3) Is upgrading the HD to the Maxtor 300 or WD 250 HD? I changed HDs on my TiVos - that is I can unscrew hold downs and unplug wires change
HD unit and the replug and rescrew but that's about my limit.

As a point of reference I have Dish* - I need not tell any body about their PVRs problems.

Thanks again.


My attempt at answering your questions:

1) The local PBS station does not send out the Guide data in many places. ABC has been mentioned often. However, it is difficult to find out what station sends the data. One thing I read in this long thread recently is that the diagnostic screen contains the station information. Look back about a page in this thread to find out more.

2) Likely when you get the Guide this may not be necessary. However, you can go into TV Guide setup (press the Guide button and then scan along the top menu items until you find "Setup"). Once you select the channel setup item you can scroll down to the channel number and type in the new number to replace the analog.

3) Easiest hard drive upgrade you'll ever do. Carefully remove the current drive (don't damage the wires) and then install the new drive. The LG LST-3410a will take care of the formatting. Keep in mind you are limited to 59 programs on the hard drive (I don't know why that is but it seems to be a hard limit on my setup). If you upgrade to a higher heat load unit (such as a 7200 RPM unit), you should make sure that there is adequate space on top and on the side of the LST-3410a for ventilation.

Hope that helps answer your questions.

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
Tony,
Make sure that the DVI black level is set to "normal". Also, I am not sure about your Sony, but I know that my Hitachi has a different color parameter that is used for DVI compared to component. But it is in the service menu. Just my $.02.

Dave

hmmm....there aren't any color settings on the Sony that are particular to DVI. There are, on the Sony, 4 different aggregate settings (called "normal", vivid, movie...) and whichever one you choose applies to all video inputs, though you can switch from one to another with a button.

For each of these settings, you can also alter about 5 different settings..."picture, brightness, hue, ..." When you highlight "brightness" it explains that this sets the black level (go figure)....

I can set up one of the aggregate settings (e.g., "movie") to be specific for DVI, adjusting it for the best result, and then selecting "movie" whenever I'm using DVI. But, as I mentioned, I've become convinced that the DVI simply isn't conveying as much color depth....or something like that...

But I'll keep working on it! Tony

I got two maxtors. One was supposed to be a "QV" and the other did not have the "QV suffix, but ohterwise had the same designation. Both units when unwrapped had the QV suffix on the drive. Stick with a 5400, and the Maxtor seems the one that does the trick for most people. .

Originally posted by ebo
It (the diagnostics menu) may have answered one question I had: what channel is it getting data from? On Page 1, Host Chan 0xA. If I interpret that correctly, that means channel 10, which is the local ABC analog station. Mine says Host Chan 0x7, which may mean local OTA Ch. 7 (ABC). How did you derive Ch. 10 from 0xA?

Originally posted by UncD2000
Mine says Host Chan 0x7, which may mean local OTA Ch. 7 (ABC). How did you derive Ch. 10 from 0xA?

When reading computer dumps (which the LST-3410a really is in some ways), a number preceeded by a 0x means that the number is in hexadecimal (base 16) rather than decimal (base 10). In the hexadecimal (usually just said as "hex") system the numbers are 0 through F. So, the number after 9 is A, followed by B, followed by C, etc. After 0F is 10.

So, if the channel number is 0A, then that converts to Channel 10 in the way we normally count.

Thanks, Andy.

Originally posted by avnstf
hmmm....there aren't any color settings on the Sony that are particular to DVI.
As Dave indicated, on most sets, these parameters are only accessible from the service menu which is not the same as the user menu you see. You would need to find out the "secret" code sequence to get into service mode. This can be highly dangerous if you mess with the wrong settings in this menu. People who do ISF calibrations usually work in this mode to tune the display for each input.

Regarding the post indicating that the channel where you get the TV GUIDE Data from could be determined from Page 1 of the TV Guide pages, I must disagree... I just checked the photo's I took of the TV Guide Diagnostics.. My page 1 says the Host is 0x506.

I've discovered that in Chicagoland, TV Guide data is being transmitted on WFLD channel 32 and WLS channel 7. This Host 0x506 doesn't decode to either of these channels......

Originally posted by avnstf
Well, I just got a unit 10 days ago from Circuit City, and it's been working fine EXCEPT that the signal using a DVI cable to my Sony 32HS500 has a dark cast compared with that which I get from my Samsung sirt165 via high-quality component cables.


I have the KV-30HS510 and no problems w/the quality of the DVI input from the LG. But the only thing I've compared it to is a Toshiba DVD on the components.

Chris

I didn't quite get that "hex" stuff. Could someone slowly translate 0x506 for me. It's not vital, I'm only curious.

On another topic, I figured out my slow locking problem after hearing the rest of you get virtually instant locks on QAM. Who would have thought you could get too much signal from comcast? A variable RS attenuator cranked all the way has given me virtually instant lock on 4 of 5 available channels.
The 5th still takes 4-5 seconds to lock, this is much faster than before, but it's a strange number: 90-60.
Further attenuation starts break-ups and pixelization.

Thanks all for the input.

Lew

Originally posted by TempestII
I have the KV-30HS510 and no problems w/the quality of the DVI input from the LG. But the only thing I've compared it to is a Toshiba DVD on the components.
So your color quality is similar from the two inputs? (I'm not worried about the sharpness, since that seems OK with my use of the DVI.) Tony

I confess I'm still curious about others' experiences comparing two HD inputs...

Originally posted by lewlew
I didn't quite get that "hex" stuff. Could someone slowly translate 0x506 for me. It's not vital, I'm only curious.Same here. Does 506 translate to 1286 (5 X 16 X 16) + (0 X 16) + (6 X 1)? What host channel could 506 be referring to?

Originally posted by Jan J
Regarding the post indicating that the channel where you get the TV GUIDE Data from could be determined from Page 1 of the TV Guide pages, I must disagree... I just checked the photo's I took of the TV Guide Diagnostics.. My page 1 says the Host is 0x506.

I've discovered that in Chicagoland, TV Guide data is being transmitted on WFLD channel 32 and WLS channel 7. This Host 0x506 doesn't decode to either of these channels......

How do you determine which channels are actually broadcasting the Guide information?

Re: TV Guide channels

I called the LA PBS (KCET 25) station and asked if they sent the info with there analog signal. Well the lady I spoke to did not seem to really know what I was refering to but nontheless said no they do not send TV Guide info. I guess I could a) try calling the other LA stations or b) call the PBS station again and ask for the engineering dept. Gee - you would think there was an easier way to find the station sending the info in your area.

bnaegele asked me: How do you determine which channels are actually broadcasting the Guide information?

The answer is I know the chief engineers at both stations, and have been in conversation with them starting a couple months ago... Somewhere I even have an email from one of them indicating which line of video the data is transferred on... Just checked, I didn't keep the email... I'll try and find out that again...

For those of you who have had problems recording your local Fox affiliate, the problem is fixable!!

My local Fox afflilate, KDVR-DT, was unrecordable earlier this month. My 3410a would make continual hard drive scratching noises when you attempted to record it, and the resulting recordings would either not play at all or would instantly break up and stutter.

I called my local affiliate last week and mentioned that the SF Bay area Fox affiliate, KTVU-DT, was recordable.

Whether it was that call or something else, earlier this week the digital signal was off the air for a day or two; when it returned my 3410a would record it perfectly, as with any other station I can receive.

Just in time for the "big game." :D

Intermittently, Fox has the chattering and station assignment issue. It must be a network issue vis a vis a local one, because the same thing occurred here in DC and now it is fixed. My Sony KDL-32XBR950's tuner had the same problem.

Fox's issues may have been fixed by the requirement that all broadcasters be on the same page psip wise by 2/1. Meeting this requirement fixed some issues here in Portland.

Originally posted by MrHifi
Intermittently, Fox has the chattering and station assignment issue. It must be a network issue vis a vis a local one, because the same thing occurred here in DC and now it is fixed. My Sony KDL-32XBR950's tuner had the same problem. Actually, it is a local issue; I had the chattering even with local content, from the local news to infomercials (I was checking to make sure it wasn't a Fox network or some type of strange broadcast flag issue...)

PSIPS are added locally to network transmission streams. It's local

PSIPS are added locally to network transmission streams. It's local

lewlew,

I think your reasoning is probably correct. The fact is that the same problem was observed in different parts of the country when folks were recording Fox programs. That implies a country wide action not just a local one. Whether it was caused by a local transmission or injected at the network level is immaterial, it was a Fox mistake that affected many viewers with these receivers.

Originally posted by avnstf

quote:Originally posted by Dave Vaughn
Make sure that the DVI black level is set to "normal".

hmmm....there aren't any color settings on the Sony that are particular to DVI. There are, on the Sony, 4 different aggregate settings (called "normal", vivid, movie...) and whichever one you choose applies to all video inputs, though you can switch from one to another with a button.



You can slightly change the appearance of the LG's DVI out by going to Menu|Option|DVI Level. Choices are Standard and Expand. I use Expand. It seems to have the greatest effect on black level and may also increase contrast a bit.

Originally posted by Jan J
Regarding the post indicating that the channel where you get the TV GUIDE Data from could be determined from Page 1 of the TV Guide pages, I must disagree... I just checked the photo's I took of the TV Guide Diagnostics.. My page 1 says the Host is 0x506.

I've discovered that in Chicagoland, TV Guide data is being transmitted on WFLD channel 32 and WLS channel 7. This Host 0x506 doesn't decode to either of these channels......
0x506 translates to 1286 decimal. Are you sure that's what it says for Host Chan, not Host ID? Channel 32 should be 0x20, channel 7 would of course be 0x7.

I'm sorry to have to post this, but.....

I'm looking at another 3410a connected via YUV cables to a Sony Vega 35" CRT, and when I receive SD broadcasts, I'm seeing the 1080i ouput (Vega will only accept 1080i inputs) of the decoded 480i receptions....

The Chromanance is out of time with the Luminance by about 1/2 what I see at home....

35" diagonal screen here.... 62" diagonal screen at home.

At home I'm outputting DVI to HDMI input in Native mode.

I've tried all forms of output at home, and the Chromanance is not in time with Luminance on the Upconverted 480i receptions (seen as 480P at home, and 1080i here.

Two different units, both with same problems? No, I think it is a poorly timed video design!!!


P.S. Regarding the post just ahead of this one....

Yes the decoded channels are not correct, according to page 1 of TV Guide diags! That's my point!

Jan, how much do you want to sell your unit for? I know a couple buyers.

I'm just peturbed that something so potentially good could have a design flaw in it that is so basic..

Luminance & Chrominance out of time with one-another? Are you Kidding, That's Acceptable?

Why didn't they make 720P & 1080i receptions out of time, too?

Or introduce 60 CPS Hum in the audio?

Jan,
If you are saying that the audio is out of sync with the video, it's not the 3410A. I've run mine into 480i, 1080i, and 720P via the RGBHV with no problems. Occsionally, the broadcaster gets the two out of sync but this is easily corrected at the time you are watching by shutting the 3410A off and turning it back on. If you are recording, you will be SOL.

If you want to sell it contact me immediately. I'm in Maryland and want a second unit.

I reread your post. Your problem is that SD material looks funny when watched via 1080i or 720P right? Sounds to me like your unit may be bad. Have you tried going through the RGB or RGBHV outputs? I have no problem here. i do it all the time on a front projector with a 120" diagonal image.

No, I'm Presently using DVI, but have also been using YUV. Both are bad (lum-chroma issues in the 480i upconvert to 480P.
As posted before a couple times, If I put up the menu over the 480P picture, the MENU is in phase, Lum to Chroma.

I saw the same thing at work on the Vega set today.

Go back in this forum far enough, and there are references to what I've posted, using different terminology....
Very upsetting.

I am looking at mine. No deley between the two. I know what it looks like because I own a Pioneer DV-09 DVD player that allows you to adjust the chrominance and luminance delay. There has been no delay in the three units that have passed through my hands.

Originally posted by MrHifi
I am looking at mine. No deley between the two. I know what it looks like because I own a Pioneer DV-09 DVD player that allows you to adjust the chrominance and luminance delay. There has been no delay in the three units that have passed through my hands.

So, if you go to, say, QVC, and look carefully at all the Character Generator type on the screen (Which is a good place to test for this, as the images stay there for long periods of time) and if you look carefully at background video and vertical edges of the characters with dissimelar colors, you don't see the color from one image be offset to the left onto the other image?

I'm seeing about a 3/8" displacement on a 62" diagnoal screen here, and saw half that on the 35" Vega at work.. Overall it makes it look out of focus, (3410a), compared to the same identical reception on the Mitsubishi. Until you can spot the issue, a quick glance of the screen would at first appear to be a general de-focus-ing of the image. Closer examination at vertical lines points to Luminance Chromanance timing issues.
On the bigger screen at home, I see the chroma looks to be one line above and to the right of (In other words, nearly one full line ahead of) Luminance.

This issue appears to be origionating in the up-conversion area, as it gets recorded to, and plays back from disk that way, but, if I call up the menu during SD<480P reception or HDD 480P Playback, the Menu Icons are in perfect YC timing, though the received image, HDD playback at 480P, ISN'T.

720P and 1080i are flawless Do not show this problem at all.

I've seen this on two different units....

One (here) was in output via DVI (or YUV) in Native, 720P, or 1080i to a Mitsubishi 62525 DLP.....

And the other was output via YUV at 1080i to a Sony Vega CRT (It was not mis-convergence on the Vega).

Saw the same type of thing on both units. Oh I hope you are correct when you say you haven't seen it... I'm hoping to check another one in a week or so...

480i SD signals often have bleed over. There is some of that on mine too.

I don't have a spare drive handy to try this, so...

I understand that installing a new hard drive is a no-brainer in these units! So much nicer than a TiVo!

I was wondering if you can install a drive, fill it up, remove it and install a new drive, and at a later time pull the newer drive to reinstall the OLD drive to view recordings; treating the drives like tape cassettes, if you catch my drift. If so, the cost per gig is is so low that it rivals tape media without requiring that overhead investment in VCR hardware.

Anybody doing this?

If I compare the same channel on a different receiver, the Lum/Chroma timing problem is not evident.

I'm not familiar with whatever 'Bleed Over' is, but I know I can decode the VITS from a SD receiver, even from a consumer VCR and display them on a scope with minimal degredation...
If an $89 VCR can do it, you'd expect a $700-$1000 device can.

So there must be a Luminance/Chromanance error in either the receiver, or the up-converstion step.... And that isn't correct!

Jan, I'll post the Y/C delay error pattern from AVIA run through the LG outputting 1080i when I get a chance.

Do you have the disc...maybe you can post pics as it may not be until weekend after next before I get around to it.

On my setup, 480i through the LG is much better than through my Mits display, DTC-100 or Dish 6000 receivers. It is comparable to 480i input into my Hitachi dispaly. I'll of course verify this with the test pattern as mentioned.

Originally posted by Mike Emery
I was wondering if you can install a drive, fill it up, remove it and install a new drive, and at a later time pull the newer drive to reinstall the OLD drive to view recordings; treating the drives like tape cassettes, if you catch my drift. If so, the cost per gig is is so low that it rivals tape media without requiring that overhead investment in VCR hardware.

Anybody doing this? Yes, I've done that; it works fine. I filled up the original drive with shows I wanted to keep and replaced it. Occasionally I put it back. The best situation would be a removeable drive case. I tried that but operation was too flaky (much pixelation on playback). I think others have reported more success earlier in this thread. I'm using a 7200 RPM drive, but some say 5400 RPM drives work better.

search for my post in the thread earlier on drive swapping.

A removable bay had lots of issues, and must be a compatibility issue. So I put an extra long IDE cable out of the case (with power) and some cases for the HD and works fine (even though a bit of a hassle to swap).

I saw from a place IDE to USB adapters. might be worth trying

For another reason (a dropped Laptop computer), I have been looking into external drive enclosures, into which hard drives of various sizes (2.5 to 5 inch) can be placed. (For my purpose - recovering data from a drive from a defunct laptop - I needed one for a 2.5 inch.) However, the enclosures I looked at are designed to go from IDE to a USB cable (or firewire), and that wouldn't work for the present purpose. In principle, though, one ought to be able to make an enclosure that simply has a pass-through to an IDE cable and power cable, so that it wouldn't be a lot of trouble to swap drives...

IDE to SATA is the way to go for easy drive swapping. Take a look here for the IDE to SATA adapter that goes into the LG box:
http://www.startech.com/ststore/itemdetail.cfm?ProductID=PATA2SATA&mt=p

and here for the SATA back to IDE drive tray:
http://www.sanmax.com/products/index.cgi?display=item&part=PMD-96I-SA

I've built three 3410s with these components and haven't had any problems. I can even interchange the drives among the three units. The only caveat is you will need either an IDE gender changer (good luck finding that, and no, a stake header will not work) or you need to desolder the 40 pin female connector and solder a 40 pin male connector to the Startech PATA-SATA adapter card.

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
Jan, I'll post the Y/C delay error pattern from AVIA run through the LG outputting 1080i when I get a chance.

Do you have the disc...maybe you can post pics as it may not be until weekend after next before I get around to it.

On my setup, 480i through the LG is much better than through my Mits display, DTC-100 or Dish 6000 receivers. It is comparable to 480i input into my Hitachi dispaly. I'll of course verify this with the test pattern as mentioned.

Marc. I'm interested in how you are getting the video signal INTO the 3410a....

I've considered inputting video test signals into the video input of a VHS Deck and connecting the RF OUT of the VHS Deck into 3410a, but I figured if I posted images derived like that, no one would listen....
I'm interested in how you'd get video INTO the 3410a....

If you can share that with me, I can then run some test signals into the box and post my findings.... I'd appreciate your help on this....
(Leitch NTSC composite test generator, and test sigs from DVD's available here)

Comparing SD Via outside antenna or cable reception on the Mits 62525 and 3410a, the Mits 62525 does not show any mistiming of Lum/Ch. Also, a $39 Sams Club DVD player set for 480P is sharp on the 62525 via YUV interconnect, whereas the 3410a via the same YUV cables and connection shows the above mentioned problems in native (480P) or 720P or 1080i.
The tipoff that it is occurring in the 3410a is that if I call up the 3410a menus over the EE or HDD Playback, the Menu is in perfect Y/C timing, but the decoded/upconverted image isn't!

Really looking forward to your information on inputting test signals into the 3410a.

Jan

Originally posted by Jan J
Marc. I'm interested in how you are getting the video signal INTO the 3410a.... There are two composite video inputs on the back of the unit. Just connect your TPG or DVD player to send 480i test patterns.

Originally posted by dahester
IDE to SATA is the way to go for easy drive swapping. Take a look here for the IDE to SATA adapter that goes into the LG box:
http://www.startech.com/ststore/itemdetail.cfm?ProductID=PATA2SATA&mt=p

and here for the SATA back to IDE drive tray:
http://www.sanmax.com/products/index.cgi?display=item&part=PMD-96I-SA

I've built three 3410s with these components and haven't had any problems. I can even interchange the drives among the three units. The only caveat is you will need either an IDE gender changer (good luck finding that, and no, a stake header will not work) or you need to desolder the 40 pin female connector and solder a 40 pin male connector to the Startech PATA-SATA adapter card.

Very interesting.

Could you post a detailed step-by-step on your installation method and component placement as well as your in-use power-up and power-down sequence.

BOY DO I FEEL STUPID....
(Yes, I never looked for SD inputs)

Sounds like a test for Sunday morning!!!!

I'm interested in the details of your easy drive swapping project also.

Looking forward to you post.

-James

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by dahester
IDE to SATA is the way to go for easy drive swapping. Take a look here for the IDE to SATA adapter that goes into the LG box:
http://www.startech.com/ststore/ite...=PATA2SATA&mt=p

and here for the SATA back to IDE drive tray:
http://www.sanmax.com/products/inde...part=PMD-96I-SA

I've built three 3410s with these components and haven't had any problems. I can even interchange the drives among the three units. The only caveat is you will need either an IDE gender changer (good luck finding that, and no, a stake header will not work) or you need to desolder the 40 pin female connector and solder a 40 pin male connector to the Startech PATA-SATA adapter card.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Very interesting.

Could you post a detailed step-by-step on your installation method and component placement as well as your in-use power-up and power-down sequence.


__________________
Murray Kerdman

I can safely tell you where the Luminance/Chromanance Timing Error Exists in the 3410a.

Using a Leitch CTG-210N Composite Test signal generator, I fed multiple test signals into the 3410a, and on playback I DID NOT notice any Luminance/Chromanance Timing errors on the up-converted 480P image as seen out the DVI to HDMI link into the Mitsubishi 62525...

REPEAT, DID NOT NOTICE ANY LUMINANCE/CHROMANANCE TIMING ERRORS IN THE 480P OUTPUT TO MY DISPLAY!!!

This is contrary to ALL the postings that I have made previously!!!

Based upon this input, I then tuned the Mitsubishi 62525 to QVC, the channel that I had commented on before that made this problem identify-able, buy the nature of the many Character Generatror displays that remaining on the screen for long times.

I then took the Comosite Video output from the Mitsubishi (Set for QVC)into the 3410a input, and did a recording.... Viewing this just-made recording reveals that there is very little, if any, timing issues as viewed on the 62 inch screen at the up-convered 480P rate.

I then switched the 3410a from video input back to QVC...

THE LUMINANCE/CHROMANANCE TIMING ERRORS WERE IMMEDIATELY VISABLE IN THE EE PICTURE! I confirmed that the menu Logo was in Perfect Luminance/Chromanance timing--It WAS.

I then made a recording on the 3410a of QVC, and the still had the same image on the screen.....

Then I compared the two (QVC) recordings..... The one from Video input (From Mits 62525 video output, looked great.... The one from 3410a Cable decoder had an OBVIOUS luminance/Chromanance Timing Error!!!!

THE PROBLEM IS IN THE RECEIVER FOR 480i SIGNALS, NOT THE UP-CONVERSION!!!!!

Jan

I have alerted LG Folks on this.

Do you honestly think LG would fix this at this point?

James.....

It's on it's way back to you!!

Jan

I am wondering if anyone can give me the answer to the two problems I had with this unit. The first problem is that when I set a program to record with the guide or by setting a time recording the unit does not stop at the stop time and continues to record till the drive is full , then it locks up and I have to unplug it. The other problem is that the unit locks up a lot. If I do not turn it on for a few days it will not turn on when I try to turn it on. I then have to unplug it and reset it. The two unit I had were refurbised units. I am thinking of trying a brand new unit or getting the the JVC dmt100 instead. I am weary of trying another 3410a and having the same problems as before. I have a JVC 40k and the timer works perfectly, so I have confidence that the JVC100 would not have any timer problems.

Originally posted by kucharsk
Do you honestly think LG would fix this at this point?

Do you Honestly think that a Luminance/Chromanince timing error is acceptable?

If you answer Yes, How about uncontrollable vertical roll?

How about Hum in the audio?

Don't be silly!!! This is a BASIC FLAW!!! If you can put up with it, be my guest to sit back and accept a sub-standard product!!!!

Now had they placed a warning sticker on the box..... "BEWARE!! Sub-Standard Product!!! SD Recordings will look soft and out of focus due to Luminance/Chromanince Timing Error".... Then you'd be correct, because I was warned before purchase!!

But that didn't happen..... And since my $80.00 VHS deck can manage to make a EE and playback image that is in proper Lum/Chroma timing, I just ASSUMED that the LG box would, too!!!!

Silly Me to think that!!!!

:D

Jan, do you have a 351-series (2003 model) or 451-series (2004 model)?
I went through three 2003 units (one a refurb with 1.15 FW) that had multiple issues. I finally managed to get a pair of 2004 units through the LG swap program, and as far as I can determine, they don't have the problems you describe, and both are performing flawlessly so far. (I am only able to use the YPbPr output with my HDTV). I was just wondering if LG might already have dealt with the timing errors, etc.