Originally posted by gambrelw
That is not an accurate statement. The hitachi allows for coarse, medium, and fine for all colors. The only way to get to coarse is by zeroing out geometry, but you can get there. You can always get to medium.


Right Bill, thanks, now I remember. The paradigm for the Hit is rather unique, with the 3x3 being the one where the entire correction base gets cleared - for starting completely over - which I'll call level 1 for simplicity here, plus 2 more advanced states.

However, the Coarse for Hits is a bit different from the Coarse on others. The Coarse on a Hit is either a rather simple vs. a more advanced point system, getting more and more advanced and concentrated with each level, but always being a point system nonetheless, with level 2 moving points that are 2 locations away from each other, and the level 3/Fine moving every point, as they all adjoin each other. Other Coarse systems are very different in that they use registers like Key for keystone correction, Pin for pincushion correction, etc. Hit has none of that.

Mit and Pio are very similar to each other on this, and Panny is somewhere between the two, with Coarse registers neither of the other 2 types of system have - like Line registers, which do an entire line of points in either the hor or vert directions; and Peri, for perimeter, which does just the outermost edge points. On those the Panny is virtually unique. It has parts that are more similar to the Hits, tho, in that it also has Easy2, for points that are more spread apart - 2 regular point locations away from each other - which is similar to the Hit's more overall/level 2 Coarse point locations, which are also 2 regular points away from each other.



I am not sure I understand your statement. Whether you use the internal crosshatch with a template or eyeball the AVIA circle crosshatch for convergence, you still have to go through the same memorization and reinitialization phase. I still think the template is the better option for geometry.

Bill


Yes, you and I will continue to disagree on what we like to use there - you the template and I the AVIA grid. Both ways can be used to totally tits out a Hit. Or any other CRT based system.

But the outcome is still improved in either case by doing several memorization passes rather than just letting one pass do it.

The Hits seem to be limited in how much they allow to be memorized during each pass, compared to other brands. Once a great convergence job has been done on a Hit and you go to mem it, the Hit changes things while doinig so, and you have to go in and then correct those changes inserted by the Hit during the mem process. The Hit mem process literally messes with your convergence job on every pass. But less and less as things progress, and your changes get smaller and smaller.

It takes several more passes to correct those changes that get made every time you do a mem process, on a Hit. If you just left the changes you initially make, the Hit mem process changes that quite a bit on first pass, from what you initially sent it. What was correct high precision is now sloppy, making you have to do it over again. Resulting in several passes being necessitated.

Eventually there are fewer and fewer changes to your corrections done by the Hit's mem system. Finally the Hit leaves your changes alone during memorization.


There's also the fact that on most convergence systems. internal grids make you align the points a certain way, which always turns out to be just a little different from where externally sent in patterns make you set the points, for highest image precision. On a Mit you can actually see the 2 different versions superimposed on each other - Mits's internal grid on top of an internally sent in AVIA criclehatch grid. The corrections for the one will NOT be the same as the corrections for the other, which will become quite apparent before you're thru, on MANY parts of the screen. You can actually see it, right there in front of you, in real time - both sets of corrections on the same screen.

All this is helped on the newer Hit versions, since you can elect to correct points on ONLY the externally sent-in pattern - either a grid or actual moving video material.

This allows for head and shoulders simpler working, on the Hit convergence system.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by Mr Bob
Whenever I do a cal, it is always the owner's option as to whether they want to wait the requisite 100 hours or not. I am glad to do it right outa the box, then come back after the 100 hours and redo it again for no charge. The only charge is an additional travelcharge, to cover my time on the road. What about grayscale? Do you recheck/redo it after the 100 hours?

Yes, grayscale can be rechecked also, but this is usually not where the 100 hours comes in. I am glad to reset that also as part of the original calibration, if found to be necessary during the second 100 hours, under the same understandings as with convergence.


Mr Bob

Another question regarding ISF calibration, specific to my Hitachi 57S500.

I did a few of the service menu tweaks on my previous 57S500 (Colorgo, APRTR, and the SHARP tweaks) and felt it did help the image (though maybe I was just assuming it did).

Anyhow, should I do the same on my new 57S500 or just wait until the ISF calibration? Do they do service menu tweaks with an ISF calibration? Is it better just to wait until then, does it matter, your thoughts?

I was pretty comfortable doing the tweaks though will admit I do get a little nervous.

Thanks very much.

Anyhow, should I do the same on my new 57S500 or just wait until the ISF calibration? Do they do service menu tweaks with an ISF calibration? Is it better just to wait until then, does it matter, your thoughts?

You can make the tweaks. Your ISF calibrator will do some service menu tweaks as it is required for grayscale. As far as the rest, it depends on how familiar the calibrator is with your set.

Bill

Thanks very much.

I know this information is on this forum and I've even reread it but would one of you professionals mind explaining in semi-PQ novice terms what those "standard" Hitachi 57S500 tweaks do to affect image quality?

And yes, I've read all the posts and understand WHAT to change them to I just don't understand the reason for the difference as much. Please don't get mad at me asking about these :)

The tweaks would be:

COLORGO
SHARP
APRTR
SRTGA
SUB-BRT
SUBCNT0

I never did the last two on my previous set but read that tweaking those two help prevent burn-in (well CNT specifically). Any elaboration would be welcome.

What should SUB-BRT and SUBCNT0 be set to? I never really found a definitive post on this.

Also, one person mentioned that on some settings when you change it, you can never go back to the default setting. Or perhaps it was if you change the setting drastically. Why is that?

Can these tweaks be done any time, ie you don't have to wait for your tv to reach certain hours of use. I know, dumb question.

And one last thing, why aren't some of these major fixes already altered in production?

Thanks very much for any help you can provide.

ColorG0 is a color decoder parameter for red and magenta if I remember from my testing. There is a slight variance when using the split 100 pattern between levels. COLORG0 to 01 is slightly more accurate after recalibrating R/B and RYs.

Sharp is sharpness. There is no difference between user menu and service menu sharpness controls.

APRTR (aperture) affects sharpness. Reducing to 0 slightly helps with ringing.

SRTGA is another aperture control. I don't usually touch it unless ringing is excessive. I have scene two hitachi's were the ringing was worse than normal.

Sub-BRT - sets minimum brightness for all input types.

SUBCNT0 - sets minumm contrast for all input types.

The subbrt adn subcnt have no additional benefits to using the user menu contrast and brightness. The only reason I use them is to center controls in the user menu to simplify things for the customer. You do not need to adjust subbrt or subcnt.


Also, one person mentioned that on some settings when you change it, you can never go back to the default setting. Or perhaps it was if you change the setting drastically. Why is that?

Not true. If you write down the values, you can get back.


And one last thing, why aren't some of these major fixes already altered in production?

Manufacturers set up displays to stand out in the show room. Edge Enhancement, contrast, grayscale, color are all part of the gimmick.

Bill

Good point on your last comment, didn't think about that.

I just hooked up a Dish 921 HD receiver and am comparing the SD output of this to the SD output of my existing Dish 501 receiver. The 921 is coming in through V4 and the 501 through V3 both with S video. I could also view the 921 SD channels up converted through V1 with component and they look ok but not great. However, in order to watch those 921 SD channels with other TVs in the house I have to switch to SD output 480i for the 921. The 921 has a noticeably worse in SD than the 501. Assuming both are coming in 480i is it possible the V3 and V4 are calibrated different? I know chasing this SD question has been going through this thread, but I have still not seen a good answer.

Originally posted by seadoo
I just hooked up a Dish 921 HD receiver and am comparing the SD output of this to the SD output of my existing Dish 501 receiver. The 921 is coming in through V4 and the 501 through V3 both with S video. I could also view the 921 SD channels up converted through V1 with component and they look ok but not great. However, in order to watch those 921 SD channels with other TVs in the house I have to switch to SD output 480i for the 921. The 921 has a noticeably worse in SD than the 501. Assuming both are coming in 480i is it possible the V3 and V4 are calibrated different? I know chasing this SD question has been going through this thread, but I have still not seen a good answer.

Can't you just switch them and see?

I've had my set for about 2 months now and everything appears to work fine, though I am waiting one more month to get it califbrated. However, whenever I turn on the set, I hear this high pitched whining noise, which remains as long as the set is on. My sound system pretty much overwhelms it, but was wondering whether this is normal or not. I've got the sears extended warranty so can call out the service guy is necessary but thought I would ask here first. Thanks in advance for any advise.

Everett

That's normal for the S700s. It's the fan in the HD tuner.

Thanks Bigrig.

Can anyone here confirm if DVD players with 1080i upscaler will be better, same or worse than the 'VirtualHD™ 1080p Digital Video Processor' upscaling found on the Hitachi 57S500? I don't own either yet but will be getting the Hitachi at the end of next month.

Most can't tell a difference between a interlaced, progressive, and scaling DVD player on the Hitachi. I use an old interlaced Panny with mine.

Aspect ratio and black bars:

I apologize if this has been answered before but I have a question that may be more specific to my situation. I don't have a lot of movies on DVD but have tried to get the "widescreen" versions in anticipation of the 65s500 which I just purchased - my first widescreen TV.

It's just recently that I've noticed that there are at least two versions of widescreen DVDs, some with 1.85:1 ratio and some with 2.35:1 ratio. The former DVDs play fine when the Hit is set to "16x9 standard". However, DVDs with the greater ratio have the black bars at the top and bottom.

From reading about burn-in, I assume that I should never leave those bars on the screen for the length of time that a movie takes. So, I tried the Hit's "16x9 zoom" mode and that works OK.

However, I did find that, when using the zoom button of my DVD player (Toshiba SD4800), I can leave the Hit in 16x9 standard mode, still get rid of the black bars, and actually leave a little bit more of the movie on the screen than it does with the Hit's 16x9 zoom mode.

Does this sound like the right thing to do or are there better approaches to this? I just want to see as much of the movie as possible without risking burn-in.

Thanks.

Your worry about burn in is not realistic. If you're running the contrast at or below 50 the black bars wont burn in. The ONLY way to watch any movie IMO is origonal aspect ratio(how it was presented in the theater). If I had to zoom to get rid of bars on 2.35:1 films I'd never have bought an rptv. Relax and enjoy your set. BTW dvds are coming in various aspect ratios with the most common being 4:3 (like regular tv screen and usually cropped unless it is a tv show...also called pan and scan) 1.85:1 widescreen (same as a widescreen tv and some theater screens) and 2.35:1 (like the widest theater screens). There are lesser used ratios as well.

Originally posted by Paul Clancy
Your worry about burn in is not realistic. If you're running the contrast at or below 50 the black bars wont burn in. The ONLY way to watch any movie IMO is origonal aspect ratio(how it was presented in the theater). If I had to zoom to get rid of bars on 2.35:1 films I'd never have bought an rptv. Relax and enjoy your set. BTW dvds are coming in various aspect ratios with the most common being 4:3 (like regular tv screen and usually cropped unless it is a tv show...also called pan and scan) 1.85:1 widescreen (same as a widescreen tv and some theater screens) and 2.35:1 (like the widest theater screens). There are lesser used ratios as well.

That's a relief because I, too, would rather watch a movie in it's original form, if possible. I haven't fiddled with the TV's settings yet other than to put it in "night" mode where it stays at all times. The default setting for contrast in night mode is 50%. I will probably adjust that slightly lower if I ever get around to tweaking all the basic settings - contrast, brightness, sharpness, color, etc.

Anyway, thanks for your reply.

Whenever I watch something that entails black bars, I turn the normally midpointed Contrast down a few more notches, and compensate with lowered room lighting. This may cause me to have to redo my Brightness to compensate also. For most 2.35:1 movies this does very well.

It also works pretty well if you are watching 4x3 material on your 16x9 RPTV.

16x9=1.7777777:1, BTW. They call it 1.78:1, and many find that and 1.85:1 virtually interchangeable.


Mr Bob

I need some help on a 65T500.. Turned on the TV yesterday and convergance was way off, hit magic focus and got STATIC MODE without having done anything to the set at all...... So I lined up the lines as best as possible and tried it again.. still bad!!

I got online and found instructions for doing the DCAM convergence and went through it about 10 times yesterday and I still have a problem. Using DVE the overscan pattern still shows the "center" is not correct to what I measured and marked, but it shows 5% overscan on both sides. Now the left side of the screen is squished and I can not make the horizontal lines straight on that edge of the screen. Now the right side appears to be perfect, is it possible that my entire image is somehow off to the right extremely pushing the left side to its limit??

Should I have just called in for a service call, or can I fix this myself?

I guess what I need to know is how to get the picture re-centered and set the overscan properly, then how to setup convergence. I have read about vellum overlays but I don't know where to get them and the service manual would be a great help. If anyone knows where I can download or purchase these from I would appreciate it. Also, Is there any way to make an overlay since I have a nice plotter at work I could print it there..

Any help is greatly appreciated before I give up and make a service call.

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=295607

PM gambrelw directly for printing out your own overlays with your plotter.

just got a 65s500 for my new home and im thrilled about the picture quality. I hooked it up to my hd tivo and got some trading spaces and the HD test pattern to see how well the magic focus works. I guess it did ok, but i still think i could do better. Ill wait a few months for an ISF calibration.

special thanks to all the members of this very very long, but very informative thread. I'd still be posting toshiba vs. hitachi threads if i didnt come across this thread. :D

Originally posted by ragedogg69
I hooked it up to my hd tivo and got some trading spaces and the HD test pattern to see how well the magic focus works. I guess it did ok, but i still think i could do better.

Yeah, I think the general consensus is that you can do a better manual focus over using the built-in Magic Focus. Magic Focus is a good starting point.

Regards..

Originally posted by Mr Bob

oxothuk -

When and if you do a splice, it would be very good to waterproof it. Caulking compound is messy, but very effective in keeping the rain from seeping in over the years. Tape will not be very good except in very very dry climates, for the same reason - unless you use scads of it, to really shelter the connection and make it impervious/impenetrable to the rain.


Mr Bob
Hey Bob
I personally would use 3/4" electrical tape ( preferably scotch super33) over the connections, extending past the connections at least 1/2 inch past the components, then use butyl wrap over that, extending that at least 1/2" PAST the electrical tape( it is important that the butyl go past the lower wrap of tape- that lower wrap is courtesy tape only, which allows you to take off the butyl wrap later if need be). Then run 3 layers of tape ( overlapping each wrap 1/2 the width of the tape) back and forth over each other and extending a little ways past the lower layer.
This method when done correctly can be submerged in a bucket of water and will not leak.
I have many years of antenna install experience( from CB and Ham radio work when I was 13- 25 yrs old), and 4 years of experience doing wireless telecom work as a job ( on broadcast and telecom towers).
I have wired/ weatherproofed many many times, and the method I described works very well.
The job I am doing right now requires my guys to cut these weatherseals off every day( thank god for the courtesy wrap), I have unwrapped connectors that have been exposed to the elements ( I live in the Northeast) for up to 10 yrs that look like new underneath using this method. I also see connectors that weren't done properly ( mostly the lower courtesy tape went past the butyl) that have leaked in less than 1 month.
Any and every connector will contribute to insertion loss, but if they are done correctly then most are acceptable( IF the system isn't already under par), I do system sweeps for a living( cables/antenna/amplifiers etc..), and I can see every connection point and anything else that is not part of the main feedline.
I would use RG-6 instead of RG59 whenever possible, especially on longer runs.

Sorry for the long winded reply( and the bit of OT), but I figured I would add something I am extremely familiar with, considering all the assistance you, bill, mark and many others have given to us with your experience.


muzz

I purchased the 57S500 a few days ago and I am very happy with the set. I got the 10% off at CC and another $150off for a BB match but did pay full price for the extended warranty. Very much on the fence between this set and the Sony LCD 60" Wega. In the past 20 years, Sony's are the only TV sets that I've purchased. IN fact I went back to the store today to compare the 57S500 with the Sony LCD's and both my set and the 57S500 in the store have a better picture overall than the Sony, and at this price I'll wait until Sony cranks their latest projection technology into their RPTV's. Maybe my set is a little unique, but the focus is near perfect and the convergence is tight all over the screen. Being used to super bright, clear and well converged Sony 19", 27" and 35" tv's I am very happy with the new HItachi. Also just got a Hsu 12" powered sub so my home theater experience is at an all time high. Thanks for this thread and this forum for making me an informed buyer and understanding all the trade-offs between brands and technologies. I'm running my Contrast and Brightness at 55/55 during the day and 50/50 at night. My room has 4, 6' high windows and the Hitachi cuts it very well for brightness. My main viewing position is 11' away and I watch 50% DVD's, 25% E* and 25% TW cable on this set. Next Friday I am having the E* HD 811 receiver installed.

Greg

Originally posted by PolkThug
Yeah, I think the general consensus is that you can do a better manual focus over using the built-in Magic Focus. Magic Focus is a good starting point.

Regards..


Magic Focus has nothing whatsoever to do with focusing your unit, either electrostatically or optically. (For optically, I definitely recommend the Cantilever Technique, which I wrote up after discovering it when my former Mit needed focusing on its green gun, and I decided I wanted to make it superfine quality, rather than just hit or missing it.)

It is one of 3 "xxxxx Focus" names, among the different brands, for auto-convergence of your 3 different colored images. I believe Sony's is called Flash Focus, Toshiba's is Touch Focus. Hitachi's is Magic Focus. All of them utilize sensors placed around the perimeter of your screenframe, which receive and respond to different colored lights sent out by your CRTs during the special program they run internally, which is the auto-converge process.

None of these do anything close to what an insightful, intuitive hands-on human job can do, with converging your picture.

After the 100 hour "drift period", whatever convergence precision the factory had installed in your unit - and programmed into your Magic Focus's memory - is long since gone.

After that, it is up to either you or one of us, to instill the dazzling, super high precision convergence your unit is capable of, now that major part of the drifting inherent in all new units has stopped.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by muzz
Hey Bob
I personally would use 3/4" electrical tape ( preferably scotch super33) over the connections, extending past the connections at least 1/2 inch past the components, then use butyl wrap over that, extending that at least 1/2" PAST the electrical tape( it is important that the butyl go past the lower wrap of tape- that lower wrap is courtesy tape only, which allows you to take off the butyl wrap later if need be). Then run 3 layers of tape ( overlapping each wrap 1/2 the width of the tape) back and forth over each other and extending a little ways past the lower layer.
This method when done correctly can be submerged in a bucket of water and will not leak.
I have many years of antenna install experience( from CB and Ham radio work when I was 13- 25 yrs old), and 4 years of experience doing wireless telecom work as a job ( on broadcast and telecom towers).
I have wired/ weatherproofed many many times, and the method I described works very well.
The job I am doing right now requires my guys to cut these weatherseals off every day( thank god for the courtesy wrap), I have unwrapped connectors that have been exposed to the elements ( I live in the Northeast) for up to 10 yrs that look like new underneath using this method. I also see connectors that weren't done properly ( mostly the lower courtesy tape went past the butyl) that have leaked in less than 1 month.
Any and every connector will contribute to insertion loss, but if they are done correctly then most are acceptable( IF the system isn't already under par), I do system sweeps for a living( cables/antenna/amplifiers etc..), and I can see every connection point and anything else that is not part of the main feedline.
I would use RG-6 instead of RG59 whenever possible, especially on longer runs.

Sorry for the long winded reply( and the bit of OT), but I figured I would add something I am extremely familiar with, considering all the assistance you, bill, mark and many others have given to us with your experience.


muzz

Thanks, Muzz. Glad to hear your experience of these things. I only installed outdoor antennas for about a year, myself, and it was in the very dry climate of Los Altos, CA.

But I did live in and around Portland Oregon for many many years when I was younger, and we'd need your techniques there! It rains or is cloudy 9 months of the year up there.





Mr Bob

Originally posted by gregjhonda
I purchased the 57S500 a few days ago and I am very happy with the set.

My main viewing position is 11' away and I watch 50% DVD's, 25% E* and 25% TW cable on this set. Next Friday I am having the E* HD 811 receiver installed.

Greg


Have me calibrate it and I'll have you watching it from 8' away - maybe even 7.5', as I watch my 65" Panny at 8' - and loving it even more.

The picture appears MUCH, much larger at 8' viewing distance than it does at 11', on a 57". The cover of my website, which shows my set, was photographed at 6' away. Check it out, then view yours at 8', see what you think.


Mr Bob

I've had a 57S500 since last July and now I learn from Bob that, after 100 hours, periodically doing a convergence with the Magic Focus button has been a waste of time. Why in the world would Hitachi build such an obsolescent feature into a $2,000 plus unit?

The reds on the baseball Cardinals' uniforms and the hockey Flames' uniforms, the blues on the Cubs' uniforms, and the greens on the Oakland A's uniforms all look extremely accurate on my set. Plus, for HD on my 57" set my best viewing distance is right at 7 '; and, on HDNet's test pattern, I can clearly read even the very last line that says " if you can read this line your set is better than mine." Finally, border graphics on all shows, particularly sports, to my remembrance seem to be right where they should be. Can somebody tell me that I don't need an ISF calibration just yet? Thanks.

No Thanks Bob, I get enough foul weather where I am now.;)

Originally posted by Bill Johnson
I've had a 57S500 since last July and now I learn from Bob that, after 100 hours, periodically doing a convergence with the Magic Focus button has been a waste of time. Why in the world would Hitachi build such an obsolescent feature into a $2,000 plus unit?

The reds on the baseball Cardinals' uniforms and the hockey Flames' uniforms, the blues on the Cubs' uniforms, and the greens on the Oakland A's uniforms all look extremely accurate on my set. Plus, for HD on my 57" set my best viewing distance is right at 7 '; and, on HDNet's test pattern, I can clearly read even the very last line that says " if you can read this line your set is better than mine." Finally, border graphics on all shows, particularly sports, to my remembrance seem to be right where they should be. Can somebody tell me that I don't need an ISF calibration just yet? Thanks.


I didn't say that doing Magic Focus was a waste of time. I said it won't hold a candle to what a talented human can do. And I believe that.

My procedures are for getting the nth degree of performance out of your set. If you are satisfied with your set's performance, no you don't need a calibration. There have been times when after putting a client's unit thru its paces, I have had to tell someone that the improvements I will make may be marginal, and do they want to proceed or not? They virtually always have said to go ahead. Once in awhile the before and after difference has been more marginal than subtantial. But the client has always said that even so, now he knows that he is getting ALL that can be gotten from his unit, in terms of its performance, and that that alone was worth it. This has been my experience, and extends across all brands, not just Hitachis.

I congratulate you on being able to sit 7' from your 57". But it is the owners who should answer you, not I. The owner to whom I was responding was sitting 11' back. Quite a different viewing experience.

My experience with Hitachi, never having owned one, is strictly from calibrating them. Your setup calibrationist at the factory may have been extremely gifted, and as such may not be a factory worker for long...

The feedback I have been reading about how often re-convergence is needed on Hit's has not matched up to your report. Again, I am not the one to ask, on that.

Good to see your stats! I'm happy for ya!


Mr Bob

Although I'm pleased with my PQ, I've heard so much about the need for an expert to calibrate one's set that I've been tempted to have it done. My big concern is that, after having it done, something will happen to knock out the finely tuned setup and there goes my money down the drain. Or someone could accidentally push aforesaid Magic Focus button. I guess one would need to get into the menu immediately following calibration and write down every last setting or ask the ISF calibrator for same. He wouldn't have a problem with that I should think as I hand him hundreds of dollars for the fine tuning.

Originally posted by Bill Johnson
Although I'm pleased with my PQ, I've heard so much about the need for an expert to calibrate one's set that I've been tempted to have it done. My big concern is that, after having it done, something will happen to knock out the finely tuned setup and there goes my money down the drain. Or someone could accidentally push aforesaid Magic Focus button. I guess one would need to get into the menu immediately following calibration and write down every last setting or ask the ISF calibrator for same. He wouldn't have a problem with that I should think as I hand him hundreds of dollars for the fine tuning.


Yours is a very common concern, and valid. Some say to give RPTVs 300 hours rather than 100, just to see if you are going to need warranty service for any reason at all, which could possibly totally dismember a perfect calibration. This is rare, but it does happen on occasion. I give discounts on a secondary calibration, when a redo like this has to happen.

The points are not something you need to write down.

However, on every calibration I do, I write - or have the owner help me speed things up by taking dictation - all settings in the SM before they are changed. Then after, also, with an arrow between the 2 at the top entry. This is very standard practice. All the calibrators I know make SURE to write down at least the OOB starting points of all such registers, and leave that history with the owner. Afters are not so important, because they will usually stay there unless and until changed, but I usually do both anyway.

The Magic Focus gets less and less offcenter at all its points with every memorization pass, and eventually stays where put, leaving it nonthreatening anymore. Several passes are required during convergence calibration, to finally make this happen. Each pass requires across the board convergence corrections, and is quite a comprehensive and time consuming process - but essential, IMHO, and included in all my cals. After that it stays OK when pressed, even when by a civilian... Or, as Jack Bauer said in 24 last week, "an innocent"...


Mr Bob

If anyone out there is on the fence about getting a 65S500, then now is the time to get off! Look up 65S500 at Sears.com and notice 1. a 10% off if you use your Sears card and 2. a $100 rebate. I won't mention the price because of the forum rules. But, lets just say (ignoring taxes and shipping) that if your budget was 2 grand, you would get some change back ;)

RBB

On my 57S500 I press the info button to see what signal is coming into the tv and it is just blank. Why is this the case?

Currenty using basic cable box(digital)?

Originally posted by Paul Clancy
Your worry about burn in is not realistic. If you're running the contrast at or below 50 the black bars wont burn in. The ONLY way to watch any movie IMO is original aspect ratio(how it was presented in the theater). If I had to zoom to get rid of bars on 2.35:1 films I'd never have bought an rptv. Relax and enjoy your set. BTW dvds are coming in various aspect ratios with the most common being 4:3 (like regular tv screen and usually cropped unless it is a tv show...also called pan and scan) 1.85:1 widescreen (same as a widescreen tv and some theater screens) and 2.35:1 (like the widest theater screens). There are lesser used ratios as well.


I agree that there is little reason to worry about watching 2.35:1 movies, unless one is watching them a LOT, like most of the time that your set is on.

However from what I hear from several, including some earlier posts in this thread, is that if you watch a lot of 4:3 in native mode, that you still run the risk of having burn-in. Many earlier posts recommended running in stretch mode, which drives me crazy. After all on a 57" set, it stretches a 37.3" wide image into a 49.7" wide image. This isn't a trivial distortion, it's a 33% increase across the horizontal axis.

I had been hopeful that "smart" gray bars, that approximated the same brightness of the screen image, would have signficantly reduced the risk of 4:3 burn-in, but apparently they don't.

Stretch modes have come a long way. I've found it totally acceptable in my 57s500. No more fish eye effect or people from a Dr. phil show on every channel. Even sports look natural in stretch. I guess I just don't get as oar religous about sd tv fare like I do with movies...unless it's an hd movie shown on tv. Stretch and burn in risk does bother some enough to look at lcd/dlp and I can understand that. The biggest drawback of stretching for me is that you're taking a low quality sd signal and blowing it up ...so you're losing more quality. Not a huge deal for the better sd channels but the bad ones look truely awful. Flipside is once you see hd on these big crts you forget about sd alltogether.

Originally posted by rdwalt
Can anyone here confirm if DVD players with 1080i upscaler will be better, same or worse than the 'VirtualHD™ 1080p Digital Video Processor' upscaling found on the Hitachi 57S500? I don't own either yet but will be getting the Hitachi at the end of next month.

I just added a Zenth DVB-318 1080i DVD player to my 57S700 system. I hooked it up via DVI and it is noticeably better than my old Pioneer component 480i player but not night-and-day better. All in all it is worth it at $160 (if just for the DVI). I am not very happy with the Zenith's 1080i component output though (green seriously undersaturates with my copy -- according to others YMMV). And the DVI output suffers from mild, but tolerable, white crush. Bottom line is the Hitachi 1080p video processor is very good and unless you want to use up your one DVI port or are unhappy with your currect DVD player, you may want to skip a new upscaling one. You could go from the frying pan into the fire.

I'm in a pinch and looking for somewhere I can purchase a service manual for immediate download (57S500). Anyone know where to get one? Servemanuals.net is 1-3 days.

BJN

Search this thread using the keyword "emule"

RBB

Originally posted by BJN2
I'm in a pinch and looking for somewhere I can purchase a service manual for immediate download (57S500). Anyone know where to get one? Servemanuals.net is 1-3 days.

BJN

Wrote Hitachi regardiing whether they considerer the fan whine a service issue:

************************************************
Thank you for visiting the Hitachi website and for your inquiry.

Your television contains a small fan to circulate air throughout the interior of the product. This air movement is essential to maintain optimum operating conditions and prolong the life of components. You will be able to hear this air movement under quiet conditions.

Unless you hear mechanical noise, i.e., vibration, grinding, rattling, etc., the fan is operating normally.

If you are hearing this type of noise, I recommend contacting an authorized service center for assistance.

If you purchased your product from Sears, please contact Sears for service.
************************************************

Seems to me they're trying to weasel out of this. Purse your lips and blow and air movement can cause a whistle, open your lips and the same volume of air would sound very different. Air movement doesn't have to sound like a high pitched whine. I love everything about the 57S700 with the exception of that noise. Maybe I'll get the Sears guy out and see what he has to say.

Thanks, although it does not appear to be one emule. I searched for 51S500, 57S500, and 65S500. Any idea what the part number is for the service manual?



Originally posted by owr084
Search this thread using the keyword "emule"

RBB

I don't think they are trying to weasel out of anything. Fan noise is fan noise - some better, some worse. Whether or not it is objectionable is really a judgment call, when all is said and done.

Listen to your fan on your computer. If the noise from your Hit is noticeably worse, there's probably a problem with it - it might be scraping against something in there, causing this whine. DVRs and PVRs can cause excessive noise just by being tilted the wrong way, and that is their hard drives talking.

I think having a warranty tech out is a good idea, but I would eyeball the fan first. This means going inside. Don't touch anything while you are in there that would tip off a tech that you've been in there, if you value your warranty. Just do a looksee and see if anything looks improper in there, around the fan blades.

Then close it back up, untampered with, and call him if you think it's necessary.

You might be able to replace it with a quieter whisper fan, if you know what you are doing.


Mr Bob

Thanks Bob for the advice. Do you do calibrations in Davis? Sometime this summer I should have enough hours on it. Been here since late March. BTW the sound of my computer fan is not as high pitched as the one in the TV, though the sound is actually louder (more like a buzzing noise). Your're right it is a judgement call.

Has anyone out there attempted to remove their fan to examine it? Is it anything like a computer fan? Two lead or 3 lead? 12 volt? 60, 80, 90mm or larger?

There are a lot of computer fans out there that have been developed for quiet operations. If a larger fan could be "stuffed" in the same location, it would turn slower and make less noise...

RBB

40mm, 5v, 3 lead.
Pictures & more in this thread.
Dissassembly instructions & more in another thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=341008

It's mounted inside a narrow mesh box.
You could not put a larger fan inside.
You might build a duct though.

An angle change fixed it for one owner, not for me though.

Originally posted by ebandman
Thanks Bob for the advice. Do you do calibrations in Davis? Sometime this summer I should have enough hours on it.


Yes, I have been flown as far away as New Jersey for one Mit 55905, and 3 ten day trips to Texas, among other places. I would be glad to come out there, it's not a bad drive at all from here.

Send me an email request at my regular email address, below, and I will send you out an emailout with all pertinent data. Then let's get you scheduled. You should be at 100 viewed hours long before midsummer, I would think -


Mr Bob

pix of my 65s500 setup ...

I've had my Hit for 3 weeks now and loving it, even without a lot of "tweaks". No problems with the set (wish I could say the same for the cable company!) I was a little worried that I would be overwhelmed with the size but at viewing distances between 12 and 15 feet in our family room, it looks just right. I'm totally comfortable with the size and glad that I didn't get the smaller 57.

BTW, I just posted some "before and after" pictures on the "Let's See Some Pic's!!" thread, if anyone is interested.

My 65" isn't a Hitachi, but I still prefer an 8' viewing distance, myself. Gets you up close and personal with your material. Best in HD, of course. As was said above, once hooked on HD it is VERY hard when you have to go back...

Good that you got that size. Many RPTV owners have become immediately disappointed with their 55-57" units once set up, and found them too small, esp. after calibration.

I would have gotten a 73" Mit, but $2K more for the increase of 8" in screen size is not my idea of a deal, esp. when the pic is not a whit clearer or brighter, even after calibration...

So I stuck with my 65" and have never looked back -


Mr Bob

Amen on the HD. The sooner that SD fades into oblivion the better.

Originally posted by Mr Bob
My 65" isn't a Hitachi, but I still prefer an 8' viewing distance, myself. Gets you up close and personal with your material. Best in HD, of course. As was said above, once hooked on HD it is VERY hard when you have to go back...

Good that you got that size. Many RPTV owners have become immediately disappointed with their 55-57" units once set up, and found them too small, esp. after calibration.

I would have gotten a 73" Mit, but $2K more for the increase of 8" in screen size is not my idea of a deal, esp. when the pic is not a whit clearer or brighter, even after calibration...

So I stuck with my 65" and have never looked back -


Mr Bob

Anybody been watching the NHL or NBA finals on ABC lately?

I have, and I was suffering with 2 channel sound, even though my receiver thought it was DD 5.1. I tried to figure out how to force my receiver to decode it with Pro Logic, but didn't have any luck.

Did a little reading through the manual today, and it looks like there's an option to have the tuner output a PCM signal, I think that's the trick to be able to use Pro Logic.

But I also saw something about an SRS setting we can turn on. Has anybody played around with this, does it make a difference? I'm curious if turning on SRS and using Pro Logic or DD 5.1 is comparable to having an actual Circle Surround enabled receiver.

They had to go and complicate things. :rolleyes:

Matt

It's in bloody Circle Surround. I can't stand it! :(

Circle surround, whatever. I don't care about that. My receiver can take any audio source(two channel stereo, dolby digital, dolby prolocic, etc...) and upmix it into full spectrum 6.1 surround that is amazing. Actually, whatever source that ABC is transmitting is coming into my receiver and going out to the speakers in amazing surround. Its awesome. So, I don't really care what format ABC uses, just that its a clear, strong signal. Their broadcast has dropped the audio especially in the begining of the games. Once they get it cleared up though, its really good.

Regardless, I still don't care for it.

Hello folks, i have a 57T500, i've had it for approx. 2 months and done some tweaks to it. I have the color looking very good and pleased with it, i've done a convergence on the set and everthing looks fine, i would like to open up the front and attempt a focus job on the lens. I have the service manual and have read up on it, but find it a little confusing, could someone give me a short note on how to go about doing it, so that i can compare that with the manual to let it sink in,
thanks

Vtb2, this should help -
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=353829

Matt

Thanks Matt, i believe that will help. (-:
cheers

I just ordered the 65S500 from CC for a great price. Does nyone know about taking this unit apart? Is it easy? Are both part eqaually heavy? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks alot.

anyone?

The instructions will be in a bag on the back side of the unit. IIRC, Fifteen screws to be unfastened and then you have top and bottom. Of course, the latter is heavier than the former.

This applies to the 57" and 65"

ok cool, thanks.

Originally posted by Vtb2
Hello folks, i have a 57T500, i've had it for approx. 2 months and done some tweaks to it. I have the color looking very good and pleased with it, i've done a convergence on the set and everthing looks fine, i would like to open up the front and attempt a focus job on the lens. I have the service manual and have read up on it, but find it a little confusing, could someone give me a short note on how to go about doing it, so that i can compare that with the manual to let it sink in,
thanks


Here's the Cantilever Technique, which I wrote a few years ago, in response to my needing to redo the green on my Mits at that time. After I bought my current 65" Panny, it looked fine for about the first year, before I began noticing that the edges were not as sharp as the middle, again on green. CT to the rescue again... It works for any brand and model of RPTV, and FPTVs also, under certain conditions.

This is reprinted from other boards, in a couple of different forms. Have fun, and delete whatever you don't want -


Mr Bob




CANTILEVER TECHNIQUE


The Cantilever Technique is where the mechanical focus of an individual gun is checked/doublechecked by moving the screen in and out, towards then away from the mirror/center of the TV, rather than checking focus by moving the lens itself. On an RPTV I use a couch pillow or a clean towel to do the pushing in of the plastic screen. It is best to have any glarescreen OFF the unit, but not impossible to do even with a glarescreen still on. Just a little more difficult.

This can also be done on a FPTV if the center of the screen is movable, such as with a motorized descending flexible screen, unless it is attached tightly or the backside is unavailable to your hands, in which case you may only be able to move the screen inward and not outward. You may not be able to check a stiffened flat screen this way at all, except in one direction only with a piece of white paper. In either case, DON'T USE YOUR FINGERS. We don't want fingergrease marks up there on your pristine, allwhite FP screen, nor on your translucent RP lenticular screen.

This allows for very minute amounts of alteration at the lenses IN BETWEEN the doublechecks.

With normal focusing techniques the lenses have to be moved quite a bit to see any change at all, at the fixed screen. In this scenario, the lenses STAY FIXED while the focus is being checked by moving the SCREEN instead. Then that lens moved as needed, then checked again.

Colors obviously need to be showing independently - isolated or separated - for these tests.

I find that the 50IRE AVIA Circlehatch grid has the finest lines to use for this purpose - literally - esp. when the vertical height has been widened temporarily, to stretch their scanlines even farther apart from each other.

Always mark the starting point on each lens - match both barrel and turret with the same fine, straight line - with a fine line from a Sharpie pen or white marker - like maybe White-out, aka Liquid Paper - before altering position. Start with 1/16" movements, winding up with super-tiny1/64" movements.


Observe which way you are rotating your lens barrel, each time. If the screen on an RPTV focusses better when you are pulling it OUT, then the barrel needs to come OUT just a little bit, usually by UNscrewing it, in a counterclockwise direction.

The OPPOSITE is true in FPTV scenarios. This is because OUT towards you is the opposite direction when there is a mirror involved and/or in a rear projection situation, vs. when there is not/when it is a front pj situation.

Bottom line, direction of movement of the lens towards or away FROM THE SCREEN determines which direction to go. When the focusing improves when pulling the screen AWAY from the lens, the lens should be brought farther away from the CRT face and thus closer to the screen.


The middle of your screen is perfectly focussed when moving the screen outward and inward causes the focus to go out exactly the same amount in each direction, coming back to perfect focus when at rest. When perfectly balanced while at rest in its regular viewing position, your optical focus can't get any tighter.

If the center is now in and yet one or another of the sides is still out, you'll have to look for and test for Scheimpflug error, which is also correctable. This is the actual angle of the CRT face vs. the screen itself, since none of these angles is EVER totally parallel, CRT face vs. viewscreen, on any kind of projection device.

Mr Bob



Here's something I just wrote as a thumbnail description at another board, just for some healthy redundancy:



The Cantilever Technique is about getting the out-of-focusness equivalent when you move the screen forward and back from the mirror, such that it is in perfect focus when at rest. On an RPTV it involves undoing the screen either at top or bottom, so that it can be moved outward; and then lightly pressing in with a pillow or something, to move the screen inward; and then tweaking the barrel in the turret till it precisely balances exactly where it goes out of focus in each direction, towards vs. away from the mirror - in vs. out.

When it is precisely balanced in its out-of-focusness, in vs. out, you know the throw distance is precisely, EXACTLY where it should be when at rest - balanced, at the midpoint between the 2 opposing ranges of out-of-focusness.

This can be done on any screen that is movable. Hanging FPTV screens, RPTVs, etc. The only screens it won't work very will with would be fixed screens. In that case you can really only do one direction - the forward direction - by taking a piece of white paper and replicating the action of moving the screen outward towards the pj.



One last redundancy:

I still like the Cantilever Technique, where you pivot the screen on the top, then pull out an inch or so at the bottom, and then press in in the center with a clean towel or pillow about 3/4", and observing to see that the perfect focus point is exactly balanced between the inner and the outer distances.

When the focus point is exactly balanced, you will start to lose focus about half an inch in, and then you will lose it again half an inch out, from the centerpoint where the screen will land when just sitting there being watched.

When those 2 distances where you start to lose focus are identical - the inner vs. the outer, the push vs. the pull - then you know your throw distance, which is the distance from lens to screen, is perfect.

Always amend that by looking at the edges and make sure that if you have any non equality between the right and the left sides vs. the middle in terms of mechanical focus, that you either play with the Scheimpflug - the angle at which your lens hits your CRT face - or equalize that error by averaging it out, across the screen.


Which can still be very telling, if the image goes to better focus as you move the paper away from the screen, towards the pj.


Mr Bob

A couple of opinions I would like to add to this thread regarding my Hitachi 51S500.

I have had my set 8 months now and I couldn't be MORE happier with it. I get compliments on the PQ all the time from friends on how good the PQ is even for standard cable.

I took the time to correct my badly off convergence with a grid taped to my tv and then went through the DVE disc and did all the adjustments. Those two things alone really made a difference. I am sure professional ISF could probably squeeze 10-20% better color tuning out of it, but for $400, I will take 80-90% and be happy knowing at that point I wouldn't probably notice difference anyways.

It amazed me how off the convergence was from the factory and recommend everyone with a Hitachi to take the time to manually fix it (DCAM). It really is easy but time consuming. If you are picky enough to be reading these forums to begin with, you owe it to yourself to get convergence right. It fixed my geometry (stock tickers were fisheying, widescreen moves had a concave top bar), and overscan along with getting the colors hitting each other (blue was bad) which appears to have made the picture more vibrant.

The color corrections on DVE really helped with the reds along with getting a good contrast/brightness setting. The ability to turn off individual color guns and the fine tuning of Color that Hitachi has given the ordinary user in their menus of the newer sets is hands down worth the price of Hitachi alone for us tweakers. If I had extra money to throw around, I would maybe get my set ISf'ed, but like I said earlier, for the 10-20% difference I might not even notice, I would rather get a new stereo or something. My set EASILY looks better than any of my friends or family's big TV's. And even better than my friends new Sammy DLP with NO tuning (the type who just doesn't care. The new tv is already better than what he had). The little effort I put into it has paid off.

And to the one who mentioned earlier that most cannot tell a difference in interlaced or progressive DVD, that is just not true. I have even blind tested my new Philips progressive to me old sony DVD using same dvd (concert CD) and it was night and day. ESPECIALLY in the red ligts. I can even tell a difference between my Faroudja chiped progressive and friends Best Buy Sony progressive.

Me, always thinking I can do better, may one day even go as far to do a manual focus of the lenses. I am not sure if it is worth it or not as I don't know how dramtic an effect off focus can cause along with not knowing if my lenses are even out of focus. My blue did look blurry while doing the convergence. But a manual focus would require a redue of the convergence and color adjustments I suppose. And I am a little leary of taking my TV apart. Maybe next time my wife leaves for the weekend...

Anyways, sorry for the carry on.

:)

And to the one who mentioned earlier that most cannot tell a difference in interlaced or progressive DVD, that is just not true. I have even blind tested my new Philips progressive to me old sony DVD using same dvd (concert CD) and it was night and day. ESPECIALLY in the red ligts. I can even tell a difference between my Faroudja chiped progressive and friends Best Buy Sony progressive

I concur with you 100%. It depends on the player. I have seen many attached to the Hitachi and I test to ensure the player is the proper mode during a calibration. The newer Sony's have a poor deinterlacer and should be set to 480i to the hitachi. My Panny CP-72 (with faroudja) is better when set to progressive.

I took the time to correct my badly off convergence with a grid taped to my tv and then went through the DVE disc and did all the adjustments. Those two things alone really made a difference. I am sure professional ISF could probably squeeze 10-20% better color tuning out of it, but for $400, I will take 80-90% and be happy knowing at that point I wouldn't probably notice difference anyways.

If you have done all the tweaks, then it is impossible to say how much improvement you will see with a calibration. This is due primarily to grayscale. If your grayscale is off by a lot, you will see a dramatic improvement. If it is close, you won't. The out of box grayscale varies from set to set. My typical out-of-box reading on the S500 shows the color temp (which doesn't account much for green) really high and most see an improvement in color.

Bill

Originally posted by 20Deep
I just ordered the 65S500 from CC for a great price. Does nyone know about taking this unit apart? Is it easy? Are both part eqaually heavy? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks alot.

I had to split my 65S700 in half in order to make a lefthand turn at the top of the stairs. It is not hard to do - just follow the instructions to the letter and you should have no problems. Just make sure you do it at the bottom of the stairs and not balancing on the top of the stairs :o ... If you are going to split it and move it more than 10 feet or the environment is dusty, then I would recommend getting some plastic wrap (the kind used to wrap pallets and is the width of the case) to apply over the lower half to protect the exposed CRTs.

The weight differences between the pieces is not important - but the upper half is more difficult to handle due to its bulk. Careful about touching the screen.

RBB

Scotin1,
I think you've really nailed the beauty of the hitachi s500....it's tweak friendliness. It really makes it worth the time to learn dcam, avia-dve, service menu tweaks etc. What is the noteable difference when using a progressive dvd player you're seeing? Just wondering because a well mastered dvd looks close to hd on my set using an older sony s360 interlaced player. I think the assumption was that a prog player still has some conversion done by the hitachis built in scaler (480p-540p) so there may be minimal benifit to progressive. 1080i upscaling players are a whole different ball game as they totally bypass the hitachi scaler. And different players(chipsets) handle scaling differently of course. I've always regarded the hitachis built in scaler as pretty decent.

Originally posted by Scottn1
A couple of opinions I would like to add to this thread regarding my Hitachi 51S500.
I took the time to correct my badly off convergence with a grid taped to my tv and then went through the DVE disc and did all the adjustments. Those two things alone really made a difference. I am sure professional ISF could probably squeeze 10-20% better color tuning out of it, but for $400, I will take 80-90% and be happy knowing at that point I wouldn't probably notice difference anyways.

It amazed me how off the convergence was from the factory and recommend everyone with a Hitachi to take the time to manually fix it (DCAM). It really is easy but time consuming. If you are picky enough to be reading these forums to begin with, you owe it to yourself to get convergence right. It fixed my geometry (stock tickers were fisheying, widescreen moves had a concave top bar), and overscan along with getting the colors hitting each other (blue was bad) which appears to have made the picture more vibrant.

Scott, could you be a little more specific about how you did the manual convergence? Is is different than what is described in the manual?

Is anyone using there s500 as a HTPC. If so, what resolution are you using? Are you using a transcoder and DVI or are you using component out on your PC? Can you surf the web using the 1080p fearture? How is the text resolution?

Should I skip on the s500 and go for a hdtv that supports PC-DVI and 720p resolution?

Any other problems/issues with using a s500 for a htpc?

Originally posted by twistedcain
Is anyone using there s500 as a HTPC. If so, what resolution are you using? Are you using a transcoder and DVI or are you using component out on your PC? Can you surf the web using the 1080p fearture? How is the text resolution?

Should I skip on the s500 and go for a hdtv that supports PC-DVI and 720p resolution?

Any other problems/issues with using a s500 for a htpc?

I tried it with the DVI out from my GeForce Ti4200. I couldn't get the custom resolutions in Powerstrip working to eliminate the overscan.

1280x720 looked good, but had a lot of overscan.

Matt

Greetings all,
I have been reading this forum for quite a while now and thought that I would post to say thanks. After reading about all of the happy Hitachi xxS500/700 owners I went ahead and got one myself!! I must say WOW!!! I recently got HD Cable and again WOW!!!
I have not yet used AVIA or DVE. Any thoughts on which is better or should I use both?
Also, is there a link that describes how to access the service mode to adjust gray scale etc...?
Are there any Hitachi 57S500 users out there with the Denon-2200? It seems to have scored nicely in Secrets and dont know if I can wait ( or should wait) for the new Denons. It seems that the upscaling players are full of bugs? Any thoughts or feedback??

Paul>
The difference I see in my Prog DVD player compared to regular or even cheaper Prog players are the little things that most people don't notice or look for. For example, I have a Live Concert DVD (Depeche Mode) that has a lot of red spotlight work. My Philips DVD Faradja chipped DVD player is clearly better in scaling than I have ever seen on that DVD. In the red spotlights for example (I wish I could take screenshots) dot crawl is so apparent on any other DVD player I have tested except my Philips. There are also so scenes where in the background far off into the crowd you can see some empty stadium seating. These look distorted and appear to "flash" when the camera moves. On my Philips they are completely clear with no motion artifacts.
I know it is a little outdated in terms of models and such, but http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/main.html really has alot of good information on what I am talking about (with pic examples) and the large differences in DVD players at all price ranges. I was skeptical at first that I would notice as well, but know that I do see it now. Like I said earlier it is minor stuff but clearly major when you KNOW it is there.

ebandman>
The convergence I am talking about is the Service Level convergence adjustment and is much more involving that the manual one the user manual points too. A service level adjustment involves accessing the hidden Convergence DCAM area and then rebuilding the grid/geometry to the specs in the service manual then readjusting the blue/red to this corrected geometry. It fixed my concave issue of the widescreen lines, my squishing of the stock tickers, and most importantly dialed in my overscan/centering. My overscan was not proportionant. 7% on one side, 4% on other with the top/bottom doing the same.


I still would like to tackle the focusing of my beams to get those tighter and then readjust the convergence once again. The green and blue beams seamed ore blurry than my red beams. I think with perfect focus, I will be able to get convergence even more spot on.

Boy my wife thinks I am nuts and she might be onto something...

Scott

Hi,

I have had the 57S500 for about 3 weeks now. A couple of days ago, after about 3 hours of use, the TV turned off and then back on again. Ever since, everything seems to be a bit blurry. Especially noticeable when white text is on the screen (such as a program guide).

Is this a Focus problem that can be fixed with a Manual Focus? Or is it a white Blooming issue? Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

DG

Originally posted by DaGurnz
Hi,

I have had the 57S500 for about 3 weeks now. A couple of days ago, after about 3 hours of use, the TV turned off and then back on again. Ever since, everything seems to be a bit blurry. Especially noticeable when white text is on the screen (such as a program guide).

Is this a Focus problem that can be fixed with a Manual Focus? Or is it a white Blooming issue? Any suggestions or help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

DG


Sounds like white blooming. When you set turned off, it may have set itself back to full user Contrast when it turned back on. Where were you running your contrast then, and where is it now?

See where your Contrast is set, and if this is remedied by turning contrast down. Then balance the Brightness to match, using a dark picture. I often use starfields to set Brightness, making sure they are neutral in density both on all-over dark pix, and with other pix that have a good amount of bright material in other parts of the screen also. It is a critical balance that sometimes has to be struck, esp. when factory levels of brightness get changed due to the grayscale op.

It's OK to let a tiny bit of "fill" light level into the darks of your starfield. Remember, even in the movie theaters, celluloid film does not FULLY impede the monstrous light level of an arc-welding lamp, which is what they use. It is not COMPLETELY black in the dark scenes even at the big theaters in the mall.

Last Hit I did, a few days ago, the 2 available colors' drives had to be goosed up quite a bit to finally run parallel with the unavailable color's drive, to achieve fully balanced D6500K in the brights, at the 80IRE level. This is not bad, but the cutoffs of the colors involved changed when their drives were changed - very common - and that had to be compensated for also. Then the subbrightness had to be rebalanced to match, afterwards. At 50% contrast, set looked phenomenal when I was thru with it. No blooming, and fully accurate D6500K.

Pick a spot on your contrast continuum where it looks best - no blooming and yet a pleasing amount of light level, no need for a dim picture on these sets - then rebalance the brightness if necessary, and see if this contrast/brightness balance stays and hopefully never happens again.

I have heard of this happening - a sudden off/on power shift, resulting in contrast levels defaulting - sometimes, on RPTVs. My Panny defaults to full contrast every time I leave SM or have a power outage, and I always have to go around to all the scanrates and change it back to midlevel. Whereas the Pios always default back to midlevel, as I believe also do the Mits and the Tosh's. Not sure what the Hit's do.

But if it was just a youthful new-set electronic quirk/hiccup and will never happen again on your set, you're OK.

Overall light level can also be reduced or increased in the SM, on a more permanent basis, once your set has completed its burn-in viewing time.


Mr Bob

Thanks for the reply Mr. Bob. I have been a reader of these forums for over a year now and I have always been impressed with your detailed responses!

I was running the TV with both Contrast and Brightness at 50%,which is where I liked the picture the best. The User Settings did default to the factory settings after the shutdown, but I turned them back down again. However, I now can't see a difference in the picture by adjusting contrast up and down. Could it be stuck at 100%?!? Has anyone ever heard of this happening?

I plan on getting the set professionally calibrated by Michael TLV (he is only about a 2 hours drive from me) when it is sufficiently broken in . I'm confident that he can tweak my system to perfection.

DG

Originally posted by DaGurnz
Thanks for the reply Mr. Bob. I have been a reader of these forums for over a year now and I have always been impressed with your detailed responses!

I was running the TV with both Contrast and Brightness at 50%,which is where I liked the picture the best. The User Settings did default to the factory settings after the shutdown, but I turned them back down again. However, I now can't see a difference in the picture by adjusting contrast up and down. Could it be stuck at 100%?!? Has anyone ever heard of this happening?

I plan on getting the set professionally calibrated by Michael TLV (he is only about a 2 hours drive from me) when it is sufficiently broken in . I'm confident that he can tweak my system to perfection.

DG


Thanks for your kind words!

Michael is a pro, and will take good care of you.

But you'd better implement your warranty first, and get this thing handled. This sounds like a repair problem, to me, if your user contrast is totally unresponsive to your commands. And no, I have not heard of this kind of thing, where the bargraph responds but the circuitry does not. Not good.


Mr Bob

Mr Bob,

My 57s500 color setting is at 30 after I calibrated with AVIA. Is it too low? What is causing it?

Contrast: 30
Brightness: 56

Thanks in advance,
plm.

Thanks Mr. Bob. I will get a call in for warranty service to get this thing fixed before I get it calibrated.

Thanks for your help.

DG

Originally posted by plm
Mr Bob,

My 57s500 color setting is at 30 after I calibrated with AVIA. Is it too low? What is causing it?

Contrast: 30
Brightness: 56

Thanks in advance,
plm.

Whether you use VE, AVIA, DVE or SVGHT, IF YOUR SET HAS RED PUSH YOU CANNOT TRUST THE BLUE ISOLATION TEST for setting color and tint. It will be great for blue, but blue will be imbalanced vs. red, and red vs. green and blue. The Color Bars test pattern was created as the industry standard for NTSC. That format is based on linear color decoding. Those brands which factory align red push into their color decoders are playing fast and loose with the industry's decades-old, tried and true format, used by video cameramen everywhere, every day before shooting - to make sure all cameras on a shoot are not only aligned with each other, but also aligned with those TV receivers which will receive their broadcast and recorded signals. Yours and mine.

The industry standard color bars test pattern was originally put onto the first consumer-available test disc, Joe Kane's A Video Standard, back in the laserdisc days in laserdisc format, for high end, completely linear color decoding systems. It was never meant to be used in redpushed formats.


The best you can do when you have red push is to shoot for the best balanced fleshtones you can get, because that's the one thing you just can't fudge. This has to be done by eye. There is no valid test pattern - or test - for aligning a red pushed color decoder. When you have set the color and tint for correct fleshtones, the greens and blues will suffer, and appear wilted and not vivid, when they should be. When the blues and greens are vivid like they should be, the reds are too strong, causing fleshtones to appear sunburned and ruddy, costing you your suspension of disbelief. Red push is an imbalance in favor of the red among the red, green and blue, whenever color is present.

This is the nature of red push, and is inherent to the redpushed scenario. And yes, it sucks.


Once you have realigned your color decoder for absolute linearity in your 3 colors, perfectly balanced with each other whenever color is present - and this has nothing whatsoever to do with grayscale, except that sometimes the grayscale and the color decoding are slightly interactive - then and only then can you trust your blue isolation test and the color bars patterns on the test discs.

Hitachi has the capacity for greatness, but is sent out with red push. Not as much as the Mits's are, but enough for the blue isolation test to be invalid.

Fortunately, the Hits can also be permanently realigned for perfect color decoding in the SM, without having to change ANY of the User color alterations from their mid/nullpoints ever again.


Mr Bob

After not being able to have a pro come to my area for a calibration I went with the guy from the dealer where I bought my 51s500. I'm not sure that was a good idea because I have a feeling he didn't have allot of experience.

So. Once he got done I had to make allot of adjustments in the menu to get it to look right. After he was done it looked like as the screen showed darker scenes it almost looked green. Also on black on black scenes like when at the beginning of the Lord of The Rings new one when the title fads in and then fads out you can see like a smear of where the title was. I was able to adjust this out by turning down everything. Actually now it looks pretty good sometimes. Maybe just kind of soft.

Right now the main issue is that on some things I get kind of a grainy look. Especially on darker scenes. Or sometimes brighter things in the background are very grainy and almost sparkle. Then at other times everything looks ok.

Is this the TV or after calibration is the TV more sensitive to a bad signal? I watched Deadwood on HBOHD and I thought it looked way better. But then I watch other things and it looks real bad. There was a program on Discovery hd about Niagara falls and on some shots of the falls where the water is going over it was almost sparkling and very grainy.

Is what I describe normal or is something way off. Thanks for the help.

Originally posted by Ledzep77
After not being able to have a pro come to my area for a calibration I went with the guy from the dealer where I bought my 51s500. I'm not sure that was a good idea because I have a feeling he didn't have allot of experience.

So. Once he got done I had to make allot of adjustments in the menu to get it to look right. After he was done it looked like as the screen showed darker scenes it almost looked green. Also on black on black scenes like when at the beginning of the Lord of The Rings new one when the title fads in and then fads out you can see like a smear of where the title was. I was able to adjust this out by turning down everything. Actually now it looks pretty good sometimes. Maybe just kind of soft.


There are 2 parts to a fullservice/fullspectrum calibration: the image structure and the colorations aspects. If the grayscale was changed - colorations aspects - hopefully it was an improvement. If not, change it back to where it was. It is a well established practice in the professional calibrator community to ALWAYS write down first any values you intend to change, in case you need to go back to them. This includes marking any mechanical changes beforehand also. The only exception is the point values, since there are far too many to write down.

Fly me out, either for just your set or as part of a calibration tour. I assure you that you will be happy afterwards.



Right now the main issue is that on some things I get kind of a grainy look. Especially on darker scenes. Or sometimes brighter things in the background are very grainy and almost sparkle. Then at other times everything looks ok.

Is this the TV or after calibration is the TV more sensitive to a bad signal? I watched Deadwood on HBOHD and I thought it looked way better. But then I watch other things and it looks real bad. There was a program on Discovery hd about Niagara falls and on some shots of the falls where the water is going over it was almost sparkling and very grainy.

Is what I describe normal or is something way off. Thanks for the help.


I would say that there is a very high likelyhood that you are now seeing a much better picture now, and as such all the flaws that didn't appear before are now coming to the fore.

That said, keep in mind that 1080i has a problem both with motion artifacts and with ultra brightness - as in flashbulbs, fires and explosions and such. It pixellizes like crazy under onstage pyro conditions at concerts.


Mr Bob

Thanks for the response. I was thinking that post calibration the better picture might expose some of the flaws in broadcast content or poor transfers of DVD. Overall the picture looks much better and the things I notice that bug me are not there all the time. That leads me to think it has more to do with the content of what I'm viewing versus the performance of the TV. My DVD player up converts to 1080i and some things look outstanding while others kinda look pretty bad.

I watched him the whole time he did the calibration and I don't think he recorded any of the settings before he changed them.

Originally posted by Ledzep77
Thanks for the response. I was thinking that post calibration the better picture might expose some of the flaws in broadcast content or poor transfers of DVD. Overall the picture looks much better and the things I notice that bug me are not there all the time. That leads me to think it has more to do with the content of what I'm viewing versus the performance of the TV.


You got it.


My DVD player up converts to 1080i and some things look outstanding while others kinda look pretty bad.

Which one do you use? I use the LiteOn, and love it.


I watched him the whole time he did the calibration and I don't think he recorded any of the settings before he changed them.


BAD technician! Bad, bad, bad!


:(

Mr Bob

Zenith DVB318. I picked that one because it upconverts to 1080i via component.

Does anyone think the s700's extra features justify the $300-500 price jump?

Originally posted by Ledzep77
Zenith DVB318. I picked that one because it upconverts to 1080i via component.


Is that one of the small cadre that use the Sigma 8500 chipset? Momitsu, Bravo, LiteOn, Denon... Didn't know about the Zenith. LiteOn no longer makes the one I have, and their newer ones don't do 1080i or 720p.

I got the LiteOn because it uses component OP also, rather than pay extra for the Momitsu, which has DVI and RGB both, with its DVI being switchable between digital and analog/RGB. My year 2000 Panny RPTV has nothing more advanced than component.

But that's not all bad. I've heard that on those systems, DVI is considered a superior pic mostly when the display unit is a fixed pixel device, where the transmission is exactly pixel for pixel.

On the most recent Hit CRT unit I calibrated, last week, the owner uses an HTPC system, and his DVDs are put out in 1080i also. And he has DVI and component, both on his HTPC and on his Hit.

The DVI did not look as good as his component OP, even after calibration. So we left it with component as his primary OP/IP.


Mr Bob

Mr Bob,

I have been reading your info about cantilever focus technique.
The concept of adjusting the lenses to give the sharpest image goes against the recommendations of the service manual.
When I adjust for maximum sharpness I cannot get acceptable color accuracy. In particular, the greens look too yellow and more like lime then green.

The service manual stresses the need to adjust focus so that correct color aberration is achieved.
From memory, if I adjust for maximum sharpness, the red beam looks to orange, the green beam to red and the blue beam to purple.
The end result is color that is way off and virtually imposable to correct fully with drive and cut adjustments.
If I adjust focus as recommended in the service manual, color is MUCH better and I can actually get green that looks like green.

When adjusting electrical focus for maximum sharpness I noticed how different the beam size is between the different colors, with the red showing a much smaller beam then green or blue. This would seem to guarantee color fringing on text etc and fine details so I have defocused the two sharpest beams to make them all the same.
The end result looks very good, with excellent gray scale after adjustment, and no color fringing on text etc, even when uses as a Windows PC monitor at 1920x1080.

Do you have any comment on this?
Should I have another attempt at getting maximum sharpness? And if so, how should I deal with the color problems that will result?

Regards,

Owen

I don't understand how the cantilever technique applies, when we can just focus the CRTs with the screen still in place. Isn't this the ideal situation?

Matt

Originally posted by Owen
[B]Mr Bob,

I have been reading your info about cantilever focus technique.
The concept of adjusting the lenses to give the sharpest image goes against the recommendations of the service manual.
When I adjust for maximum sharpness I cannot get acceptable color accuracy. In particular, the greens look too yellow and more like lime then green.

The service manual stresses the need to adjust focus so that correct color aberration is achieved.


My take on the service manual's directives is that they are for the purpose of exact focusing, the same way the CT is. I have never had any problems with grayscale or color decoding when using the CT. My end results always make RPTVs look stellar, no matter what the brand - once focusing, geometry, convergence, grayscale and color decoding have all been realigned correctly.

Since the ideal CRT bigscreen would be a HUGE 60-70" directview CRT - which is totally unrealistic, it would take a forklift to move it around - I believe getting the focusing as sharp as humanly possible is the key. Gets it completely out of the way.

Same for optics cleaning. The mirror and lenses were never supposed to be there, and are only there because of the need for spacial considerations: as in folded projection rather than true rear projection, which would take somewhere between 10-14' of depth with a very expensive FPTV projector, which is not in the range of most consumers. Therefore the optics truly need to be what Windex would call glass cleaned with their product: "so clean they seem to disappear".


From memory, if I adjust for maximum sharpness, the red beam looks to orange, the green beam to red and the blue beam to purple.
The end result is color that is way off and virtually imposable to correct fully with drive and cut adjustments.
If I adjust focus as recommended in the service manual, color is MUCH better and I can actually get green that looks like green.


I have never tried this. Could be that it worked in your particular RPTV's OOB status, and would not be true of somebody else's particular RPTV. The corrections I have done after the CT process have always delivered, and in spades. But I am but an egg, and willing to be taught, if this is truly true.

However, what I believe you are seeing is refraction from the lenses being out of focus. When out of focus, refraction sends the slewing of the colorations in one direction or the other on each color. This is what the service manual is talking about. I believe the least amount of refraction - and its resultant coloration error - is obtained when the focus is dead on.

If the drives and cuts are not sufficient to correctly align grayscale, the Screen controls have to be redone. After they are correctly centered, there is no problem achieving as correct a grayscale as your brand's RPTV is capable of, without having to slew colors in one direction or another via defocusing. But this can be tricky, and is one reason you want somebody doing your grayscale who is very experienced at it. Some brands have direct relationships between drive and cut, and others have inverse relationships between drive and cut.

This can very directly affect where the Screen controls need to be set.

I've had to employ these kinds of observations on countless sets.




When adjusting electrical focus for maximum sharpness I noticed how different the beam size is between the different colors, with the red showing a much smaller beam then green or blue. This would seem to guarantee color fringing on text etc and fine details so I have defocused the two sharpest beams to make them all the same.



This could be being caused by astigmatism aberration. Have you tested for that? Or Scheimpflug abberration?

I do not support defocussing all 3 beams to the same "dumbed down" level, in response to one or two being weaker than the others. As I said before, optical focusing of the lenses should never have been necessary in the first place. But it is a necessity, when projection of viewing material is involved.

Making sure all 3 are defocussed the same will indeed eliminate fringing and blooming, of one image over another, but will also guaranty that your spot size on all 3 guns is bigger than it should be. Yeah, they will all then be the same size. They'll ALL be mulchy!

This is NOT the path to high resolution viewing. It guarantees low resolution viewing. Fine if you are sitting 15' away from a 46-48" RPTV, simply wanting to be watching a bigger than normal screen from across the room. But it's really lame as soon as you want to sit up close and personal with your display device and have it take up most of your view - as if you're at the movies - and get the true home theater experience, from a razor-sharp picture. Sorry, but razor-sharp - as if projection had not been necessary in the first place - just ain't gonna be there!

Check out the cover of my website. The photo of William Peterson on my 65" set was taken on tripod at 6', and I watch my viewing at 8' and am in heaven. You can see every pore on his skin, every follicle of each eyebrow hair. This is the Cantilever Technique in action.

Sit 8' back from your 65", or a comparable proportionate distance back from whatever your set size is. Compare it to yours. Let me know.



I would find it very hard to believe that if we took a slide projector - or movie projector - and defocused the image, we'd get a better - sharper and more color correct - image than if we left it as sharp as humanly possible. Yet your comments would seem to support doing so.

This would of course apply not only on slide projected materials in the home, but on the big arclamp-driven 35mm film projectors in the mall theaters, which show all the first run movies we are constantly clamoring for, at $9.50 a pop. They use the same industry standard multi-element lensing projecting system as is used in RPTVs. What you are suggesting would thus have to apply there also. That they would look better slightly defocussed.

I don't think so.


Mr Bob

Mr Bob,

The reason I brought the subject up is because when I do the lens focus the way the manual stipulates it seems to work better. The amount of defocusing is very minor and does not seem to affect the overall sharpness of image noticeably.
The service manual strongly stresses the importance of paying close attention to color aberration during lens focus adjustment. Why does it do that?
I understand that the color inaccuracies produced by focusing for maximum sharpness on all lenses may be correctable, but I had a great deal of trouble with very yellow looking greens that I was not able to calibrate out.

As for electrical focus, I am struggling to understand how having different spot sizes for red, green, and blue will produce a good result.
It would seem that sharper focus is only obtained at the expense of color fringing.
The broadest beam (usually blue) will always show a fringe around the tightest beam.
I personally have a strong dislike for color fringes. It is probably THE major drawback of CRT based RPTV’s.
I should stress that the amount of defocusing is only minor, but the result is very clean white lines and text, without color fringes.
I have read quit a lot about CRT RPTV setup, but know one seems to pay much attention to this issue.

Your analogy to film projectors seems misplaced as they only have one lens for all colors.
The problem with CRT RPTV’s is that we have different focus or beam spot size for each color and that cannot be a good thing.

For your information, I have an Australian model Hitachi C57-WD5000 57” HD RPTV fed from my HTPC.
I view this from about 9’ and find the picture from PAL DVD’s upscaled to 1776x10000 (1080i timing) by my HTPC to be outstandingly good.
With true HD source, viewing distances can be easily reduced.
The results I am getting look easily as good as the screen shot on your web page, but it’s hard to tell with such a low resolution photo.
Have you got a high resolution photo I can look at?

I am not suggesting that you methods are wrong; I was just seeking more input on the subject.
It seems to me, from my experiments that the absolute sharpest image is not necessarily the best image.

Maybe someone else would like to comment on my observations.

Regards,

Owen

Originally posted by Owen
Mr Bob,


As for electrical focus, I am struggling to understand how having different spot sizes for red, green, and blue will produce a good result.

The problem with CRT RPTV’s is that we have different focus or beam spot size for each color and that cannot be a good thing.


I agree, except that we are not supposed to be having different beam spot sizes for each color.

CRTs are CRTs, the only difference is the color of phosphors used. Otherwise they are all 3 identical to each other inside, in each RPTV. Competely substitutable with each other. As such, they should all 3 be calibrated to have the smallest spot size possible for each, and all 3 should have identical spot size.

For older RPTVs, blue defocusing has a place, for more blue drive if necessary. Which is OK, because blue is more a fill color, while red and green are structure colors. If you have done blue defocusing and are not seeing blue fringing from your normal viewing distance, the blue defocusing is not too much. It inversely mimics blue drive, and extra blue is usually not considered necessary on the newer gen RPTVs.

But blue defocusing for the purpose of extra blue drive gain effect is not really part of this discussion.



Your analogy to film projectors seems misplaced as they only have one lens for all colors.

Lenses are lenses. Projected material is projected material.



Have you got a high resolution photo I can look at?

Send me an email to my regular email address and I might be able to send you a full size rendition using the high res setting on my digital cam.


I am not suggesting that you methods are wrong; I was just seeking more input on the subject.
It seems to me, from my experiments that the absolute sharpest image is not necessarily the best image.

Maybe someone else would like to comment on my observations.

Regards,

Owen


Moi aussie.


Mr Bob

I have owned two CRT RPTV’s. A 2000 model Toshiba and now a 2004 model Hitachi.
Both of these sets have different spot sizes for the three tubes when set for maximum mechanical and electrical focus. From what I understand, this is quite normal.
I should add that I do all my adjustments with contrast set to my normal viewing setting of about 35% of maximum. I do not see much point in adjusting at very high contrast settings as the manual recommends as I will never drive the tubes that hard. Obviously the spot size is much smaller at modest output levels.
On my Hitachi, blue and green spots are similar but red is quite a bit smaller (in fact it is amazingly small) so I am defocusing red to match the blue and green.

QUOTE Mr Bob
“I agree, except that we are not supposed to be having different beam spot sizes for each color.

CRTs are CRTs, the only difference is the color of phosphors used. Otherwise they are all 3 identical to each other inside, in each RPTV. Competely substitutable with each other. As such, they should all 3 be calibrated to have the smallest spot size possible for each, and all 3 should have identical spot size.”

Since my Hitachi does have dissimilar spot sizes, all I have done is bring it into line with you above comments.
To leave the red with a smaller spot size would seem illogical.

I am still curious why the service manual is so specific about adjusting lens focus to get correct color aberrations on each side of the beam. It states that the green focus is particularly important for quality.
The very small defocus that the manual is referring to does not noticeable change the spot size, but it definitely changes the color of the beam.
Since the service manual makes such a point of this adjustment, I find is odd that the topic has not been discussed on this forum.



Regards,

Owen

The service manual stresses the need to adjust focus so that correct color aberration is achieved.From memory, if I adjust for maximum sharpness, the red beam looks to orange, the green beam to red and the blue beam to purple.

You cannot change the device primaries by adjusting the focus. What you are seeing is exactly what Bob stated, which may be some type of refraction creating a hue around the edge (hence a perception of color change). I have measured device primaries after focus adjustments and they don't change.

The reason you see a color change in your picture is exactly what Bob stated. You are using more/less phosphur when adjusting focus, thereby altering light output of the CRT. This will alter your grayscale. So, the correct sequence is to focus and then use DRIVES and CUTS to get your grayscale correct.

Bill

Originally posted by gambrelw
Not possible. You cannot change the device primaries by adjusting the focus. What you are seeing is exactly what Bob stated, which may be some type of refraction creating a hue around the edge (hence a perception of color change). I have measured device primaries after focus adjustments and they don't change.

The reason you see a color change in your picture is exactly what Bob stated. You are using more/less phosphur when adjusting focus, thereby altering light output of the CRT. This will alter your grayscale. So, the correct sequence is to focus and then use DRIVES and CUTS to get your grayscale correct.

Bill


That’s fair enough. I have no problem accepting that.
So the service manual method of using color aberration to adjust lens focus is just another way of achieving the same result.?

Do you have any comment on correcting the deferent spot sizes?

Regards,

Owen

So the service manual method of using color aberration to adjust lens focus is just another way of achieving the same result.?

To tell you the truth, I have never tried the service manual method for focus. I just throw up a dothatch/crosshatch pattern and adjust.

Do you have any comment on correcting the deferent spot sizes?

I do know what you are refering to as the CRTs do vary in spot size from color to color and set to set. I have seen cases were green is larger than red and the other way around on the same brand and model. Blue is always the largest. I have adjsuted the magnets and it doesn't create an equal size, so there are CRT limitations on lower end displays.

But, to answer your question, I tighten red and green for the hitachi as much as possible and defocus blue to get rid of the purple edge hue around whites. On rare occasion, I do find a Hitachi that allows me to tightly focus blue. And as you stated before, a slight defocus is barely noticable. It isn't the optimal solution, but sometimes needed.

Bill

Thanks Bill,

I will have another go at adjusting focus and see if I can get a better compromise.
I can always go back to my current arrangement if I required.
I don’t mind playing around. :D



Regards,

Owen

The one thing I didn't mention is that electronic focus is the culprit that is affecting light output. Adjusting the mechanical focus does not. With mechanical focus, you are adjusting the spacing between the last two lenses. The amount of phosphur used remains unchanged as you are adjusting the beam spot size after the fact. The primary purpose for mechanical focus is optimizing the distance for the focal plane.

Bill

Originally posted by gambrelw
The one thing I didn't mention is that electronic focus is the culprit that is affecting light output. Adjusting the mechanical focus does not. With mechanical focus, you are adjusting the spacing between the last two lenses.

When Bill says "between the last 2 lenses", he means the end, bottommost lens of the multi-element lens barrel stack - which barrel, itself, is what we move against its fixed turret, up and back, when we optically focus - vs. the also fixed concave transparent coolant cover directly under it, which contains the optical grade transparent coolant and covers the actual CRT face with it, its curvature bending the light appropriately at that point in the light path, to match up with the rest of the light bendings, per individual lens in the multi-element lens stack.


The amount of phosphur used remains unchanged as you are adjusting the beam spot size after the fact.


As in, after the elecrostaic and/or magnetic focus, which would include the astigmatism realignment sometimes necessary at the bottommost sets of CRT ring neck magnets.


The primary purpose for mechanical focus is optimizing the distance for the focal plane.

Bill


And while this should be a relatiely simple thing, it is true that playing with this does cause what the service manual talks about.


Thanks, Bill, I hope you don' t mind my fleshing things out a little in your statements, for possible newbies at this.


Mr Bob

Thanks, Bill, I hope you don' t mind my fleshing things out a little in your statements, for possible newbies at this.

No problem Bob. ;) I usually try to keep things simple, sometimes too simple. Keeps me out of trouple most of the time. I just spent a lot of time researching testing all the variables that pop up. Some of the theory behind it can become confusing as most people, like myself, aren't physisist or optics experts.

Bill

Gotcha -

:)

Two questions: Will this set have any burn in issues with video games

and

Is this set suited for a mildly bright room?

ALL fixed images can produce screenburn on ALL CRT devices, be they directview, FPTV or RPTV. All safefuards need to be employed on ALL CRT driven devices.

That said, many games don't use static, fixed images. If the games you are contemplating do not, feel free to use them on these units. But borders, scoreboxes, gridlines, etc are all fixed images and can cause screenburn. As can blackbars and even graybars, either at the sides or at t/b.

If you want to see screenburn in action, go to your nearest arcade and find a bigscreen being used in that application. Every time there is a white screen, the screenburn will be obvious, and possibly obvious all the time.


Screenburn aside, these RPTV units have more than enough light throwing potential for a medium light level room. This could not be said about ANY FPTV application, aside from doublestacked pjs, where the light level from the pjs is doubled on the screen.

ALL RPTV applications, including rear pj'd ceiling mount apps with the screen size not too big, will perform LOADS better on black levels in medium light conditions than FPTV apps will. Throwing a pic onto any kind of even partially reflective screen - be it white, gray or beaded - under medium light level room conditions will compromise the blacks incredibly badly.

Since these are rear projection application devices - RPTVs - the above does not apply. They perform very well under medium light level room conditions.

Mr Bob

anyone have issues with a 65s500 turning off and turning back on by itself?

Thanks Mr Bob. I may have to go with a different technology because the game i play and most games in general have fixated health bars and what not (which im guessing might not be too much a problem actually), and my room is on the higher side of medium bright. Would you still recommend this set under such circumstances. I watch a mild amount of SD content as well.

Ragedogg....it's pretty common and seems to be a gun settle in issue. Most who've reported it say it is infrequent, nothing is defective and dissappears after 6mo or so. My 57s500 has done it a few times but coming up on a year of ownership and I haven't seen it since the new year.

great news. i was worried that it could be a long term problem.

My first post although I have been lurking for a while. I just ordered an HLP6163 (BTW - Samsung employee cost + 2%, $600 less than powerbuy from Nebraska Furniture Mart in KC) and I am having an entertainment center cstomer built to fit around it. What is the optimal viewing heigt for the base for regular seating (no-risor)? I am thinking 17-20 inches?

I think you should make a new topic for that JMP RULES or it won't get much attention, because this is a hitachi s500/s700 thread.

Originally posted by aboom
Thanks Mr Bob. I may have to go with a different technology because the game i play and most games in general have fixated health bars and what not (which im guessing might not be too much a problem actually), and my room is on the higher side of medium bright. Would you still recommend this set under such circumstances. I watch a mild amount of SD content as well.


Yeah, I think I would have to agree with you.

Any of the fixed pixel devices that use bulb driven technology will have an inherently brighter picture, even tho the resolution of those techs still can't approach the sizzling high res of properly calibrated CRT devices. The OVERALL lower light levels of CRTs are similar to the OVERALL higher light levels of fixed pixel devices, tho, when you do an average over all the lows and highs you see - the peaks and valleys of light level, per scene - in both cases. And so we CRT mavens compensate with lowered room lighting and after our eyes adjust - which only takes seconds, and stays that way for the rest of that particular viewing period - the relative perceived light level our eyes receive from the screen is exactly the same, whether it is a CRT or bulb driven device.

And so we're still OK. In fact with the higher resolution availabilities of CRT, we're fantastic! But bulb driven devices still hold the edge and can be cranked higher, and so would be more suited for matching up to the light levels you are talking about.

As far as the res goes, for the same up close and personal approach as I like in my viewing, all commonly available fixed pixel devices I have seen still exhibit screendoor effect. For me, this will not change my preference for CRT over fixed pixel until 1080i/p fixed pixel displays become commonplace and highly affordable, like CRTs are now.

But the bulbs used allow for brighter pictures being rear projected, and that is where your room lighting will be OK.

Stay away from plasma, tho, because it is phosphor based, just like CRTs are, and screenburn is still a heavy duty issue with them. And the phosphors have a definite and limited lifespan, which is much shorter than that of CRTs. And they are horrendously expensive to fix, if you ever have a problem with them.

If you go flat panel, be sure and make it LCD.


Mr Bob

Ok, I have been reading this thread for months...from my decision to buy a rptv, to the decision to buy a hitachi, to the delivery of my 65s500, and now hopefully my successful calibration of this set. Even though I've been reading this thread for months, I am yet to get conclusive answers to two questions:
1. After 100 break-in hours, what order should I perform calibration tweaks in? Basically, there's just so much I have no idea where to begin. One issue I've noticed is when performing manual calibration, my lines are slightly curved at some places (its bad around some parts of the edges).

2. What DVD player under 300 dollars works best with this set...an extension of this topic is should I use DVI to connect my dvd player? hd box? neither?

Thanks so much,
Ben

I'm in no way a professional but I wanted to take a stab at answering your questions just for my own enjoyment.

1. Order of calibration:
a) Manual Focus, b) Electrostatic Focus, c) Overscan, d) Geometry, e)Convergence, f) Grayscale. (of course you'd need professional equipment to do grayscale to get the best results)

2. The Zenith DVB318 is an excellent upscaling DVD player which can be found online for $160. Another good player will be the Samsung 941 (when it comes out). You should connect the DVB318 via component and your HD box via DVI.

Hopefully Bob or someone else with more knowledge/experience can correct me if I'm wrong. Everything I've written I've found here at AVS.

Ah, Thanks once again Bob, LCD might be a better choice for us, because space is kind of an issue as well. I might, however, take a set home, just to see if its not going to work out, because I had my heart set on this set :p

Originally posted by aboom
Ah, Thanks once again Bob, LCD might be a better choice for us, because space is kind of an issue as well. I might, however, take a set home, just to see if its not going to work out, because I had my heart set on this set :p


You've got it bad!

A man after my own heart...


;)


Mr Bob

I am in the process of doing my final research before buying the 57S500 for a great price at a local electronics store.

Couple of questions....

I am not technically inclined at all.... Do the service policies include calibration as needed? How often should this be done?


All who have owned one, does anyone wish they would of went for a RP LCD, the Panasonic and Hitachi LCD's are very competitively priced at this point?

I know of no warranty contracts, including ESPs, that include calibration.

That said, I have done 2 warranty calibrations - one for Mit and one for Hit - that both involved complete calibration on brand new factory warranteed sets, once 2 techs had been called out on each one, both of whom failed miserably at attempting to correct geometry and convergence problems observed OOB by the owners. The owners then demanded me of the manufacter, and they got me.

Unfortunately if you try that, you will be opening up your set to who knows what kinds of problems, at the hands of not just one, but TWO local yokels...


Mr Bob

sears had the 56s500 on sale...and then there was a 10% off all electronics...and then a $35 coupon. So in the end, this was delivered for under $1700.

HOWEVER...I wonder if the some of the more recent (and less expensive) releases from panasonic have newer technology and if they've caught up in terms of PQ? The hitachi premium seemed to be about $500 and I'm wondering if it was worth it.

OK. Got my 65S500 delivered yesterday and am somewhat happy with it. OOB it looked absolutely terrible, after adjusting a few of the settings (enhancements off, Contrast to ~30, standard color temp, etc), I noticed huge improvements. However, I still feel that the picture is somewhat out of focus. While watching DVDs it just isn't as clear as I thought that it would be. It seems that there is somewhat of a "ghosting" effect going on (converrgence maybe?). I was at the DVD root menu and some of the words were faintly duplicated next to each other. Are there any easy fixes to my problem, perhaps doing a manual convergence (how?). Now I plan on getting the AVIA disk but I don't know how long to wait before I set up the TV and I dont think that it will help with the problem I am having right now. Thanks in advance.

-Ben



edit:
also are there any sites that give walkthroughs on how to do these :
1. Order of calibration:
a) Manual Focus, b) Electrostatic Focus, c) Overscan, d) Geometry, e)Convergence
Seeing that the links in the Hitachi tweak thread are no longer valid?
Thanks again.

I own the Hitachi 57S700 and I am wanting to get a better OTA reception. Right now I am using rabbit ears which picks up a couple of chanels fair but don't pick up the others.

The TV has 4 antenna hook-ups one of them is for HDTV.

If I buy an antenna that is VHF UHF and HD which antenna hook up do I use?

Can I buy an antenna like that or is is best to buy seperate antennas.

Please advise me on what you would do. My Zip Code is 38851. I have several stations that I would like to pick up. An attic mount would be OK with me, but not an outdoor mount unless it is something not so big.

Thanks

Hey tv4u - check your private messages....

RBB

Originally posted by tv4u
I own the Hitachi 57S700 and I am wanting to get a better OTA reception. Right now I am using rabbit ears which picks up a couple of chanels fair but don't pick up the others.

The TV has 4 antenna hook-ups one of them is for HDTV.

If I buy an antenna that is VHF UHF and HD which antenna hook up do I use?

Can I buy an antenna like that or is is best to buy seperate antennas.

Please advise me on what you would do. My Zip Code is 38851. I have several stations that I would like to pick up. An attic mount would be OK with me, but not an outdoor mount unless it is something not so big.

Thanks

Originally posted by ragedogg69
anyone have issues with a 65s500 turning off and turning back on by itself?


Two nights ago, my three week old 57s500 turned off--then back on, by itself after several hours of use. There was a mild "pop/snap" sound at the same time, like a static discharge. The set's color is now heavily skewed towards red. In fact, this color bias flickers between close to normal and very much red.

DaGurnz, last week you posted a shut off/on problem with your set. You indicated a service call was needed. Has this happened yet?

I've noticed others reporting similar mysterious shut off / on issues with their Hitachi. Is this a known problem? Does Hitachi have a service fix for this?

I have a service call scheduled for next week on my set. I would hope that service fixes whatever caused this shut off/on problem, and not just addresses the now obvious color problem.

Any others have experience with this issue that has been addressed by service?

Thanks for help.

--Barry

imageQuest - please check your PMs. I sent one to you about 2 weeks ago but just noticed that you haven't been online in a month! I was hoping to hire you to calibrate my 65s500 before the summer is gone but don't know how to get in touch with you, other than this forum. If I can't make contact, I'll have to look for someone else in the Houston area -- or hope that Mr Bob has a trip scheduled for Houston some time soon!:)

wsm,

Scot has been having email problems. I just sent him a note.

Bill

Thanks, Bill.

Originally posted by gambrelw
wsm,

Scot has been having email problems. I just sent him a note.

Bill

Originally posted by BJHebert
Two nights ago, my three week old 57s500 turned off--then back on, by itself after several hours of use. There was a mild "pop/snap" sound at the same time, like a static discharge. The set's color is now heavily skewed towards red. In fact, this color bias flickers between close to normal and very much red.

DaGurnz, last week you posted a shut off/on problem with your set. You indicated a service call was needed. Has this happened yet?

I've noticed others reporting similar mysterious shut off / on issues with their Hitachi. Is this a known problem? Does Hitachi have a service fix for this?

I have a service call scheduled for next week on my set. I would hope that service fixes whatever caused this shut off/on problem, and not just addresses the now obvious color problem.

Any others have experience with this issue that has been addressed by service?

Thanks for help.

--Barry

I had the pop happen again tonight. but rather then turning off, the tv dimmed down and then came back to normal. I havnt noticed any sort of color change on my unit, but i havnt even calibrated it with AVIA yet.

I still hope this is just the breaking in adjustment that someone stated earlier in this thread.

Originally posted by 20Deep
OK. Got my 65S500 delivered yesterday and am somewhat happy with it. OOB it looked absolutely terrible, after adjusting a few of the settings (enhancements off, Contrast to ~30, standard color temp, etc), I noticed huge improvements. However, I still feel that the picture is somewhat out of focus. While watching DVDs it just isn't as clear as I thought that it would be. It seems that there is somewhat of a "ghosting" effect going on (converrgence maybe?). I was at the DVD root menu and some of the words were faintly duplicated next to each other. Are there any easy fixes to my problem, perhaps doing a manual convergence (how?). Now I plan on getting the AVIA disk but I don't know how long to wait before I set up the TV and I dont think that it will help with the problem I am having right now. Thanks in advance.

-Ben



edit:
also are there any sites that give walkthroughs on how to do these :
1. Order of calibration:
a) Manual Focus, b) Electrostatic Focus, c) Overscan, d) Geometry, e)Convergence
Seeing that the links in the Hitachi tweak thread are no longer valid?
Thanks again.
anyone? :(

You can access the links in the Hitachi tweaks by replacing the 'www' with either 'archive' or 'archive2'. Those instructions are probably the best information you can find on the internet. You should wait until your TV has 100 hours of use before you make any major adjustments.

Originally posted by ragedogg69
I had the pop happen again tonight. but rather then turning off, the tv dimmed down and then came back to normal. I havnt noticed any sort of color change on my unit, but i havnt even calibrated it with AVIA yet.

I still hope this is just the breaking in adjustment that someone stated earlier in this thread.


Actually, twice before my set "popped" and changed color, the set did a "pop and dim". The first time, I wasn't sure that it really happened. The second time it was obvious.

Also, since the "pop" that damaged the color three nights ago, I've had the TV twice turn itself back on, 5 to 10 seconds after I had turned it off.

Is no one aware of a definitive service statement from Hitachi on this?

--Barry

OK,

Like I said, I bit the bullet and purchased the 57S500 yesterday. Couple of quick questions...

1. What adjustments should I make when set is delivered next Thursday; room has virtually no natural light as it will be located in finished basement. HiDef is being installed one day later (Adelphia); should I wait until that is done before making adjustments? Should I adjust using HD or SD picture?

2. Should I hook up via component cables or something else?

3. Is there anything I can do to prevent the auto on/off that seems to be prevelant at beginning of many sets?

4. How long should I wait before doing the "additional adjustments" that many of you are talking about? What are the "additional" adjustments versus the "initial" adjustments.

Thanks in advance.

Dave

Originally posted by wsm
If I can't make contact, I'll have to look for someone else in the Houston area -- or hope that Mr Bob has a trip scheduled for Houston some time soon!:)


Just so y'all know, at this time I don't schedule trips in any given area, per se. I do respond to requests for trips, tho, and am glad to be called upon to go to any given area and perform a calibration tour for whoever's there. This requires an organizer at that end, and hopefully a bunch of like-minded individuals!

It also covers all types and most brands of display device, and of all ages also. Older RPTVs and FPTVs respond to the Image Perfection protocol even more brazenly and dynamically than brand new units. This allows interested parties who would like my services to find owners of older units in their area, to flesh out the numbers. It takes at least 3 units to really be called a calibration "tour", and around 10 days would usually be my maximum stay in any one area.

I would love to see Texas again! Have done 3 cal tours there already, 10 days each.

All that said about older units, brand new units do need the resizing that's necessary to defeat the everpresent overscan inherent in virtually all brands of RPTV, and all that that entails. Resizing out that overscan not only restores lost areas of picture to your view, but also increases your pixel density, delivering to you a lot higher-resolution picture. This is no longer necessary ever again, once it - and all that it implies - has been done once.

As such a discount can be given on calibrations where this has already been done professionally, either by me or by other calibrators. Or by individuals who have correctly mastered it. Or if you really don't care about the overscan issue in the first place, and just want me to trim up and supertweak your given geometry and convergence to super high precision performance.


Contact me at the info in my sigature below - better and more direct than by pm - if you'd like to fly me in, either just for your own set(s), or as part of a cal tour.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by rdwalt
You can access the links in the Hitachi tweaks by replacing the 'www' with either 'archive' or 'archive2'. Those instructions are probably the best information you can find on the internet. You should wait until your TV has 100 hours of use before you make any major adjustments.
ok, thanks. I have no idea what I'm doing and am going to totally screw up my new TV. Its gonna be fun. Gotta learn sometime I guess.

when I say that there is "ghosting", this is what I mean. Sorry for the bad quality picture but it was the best I could do. If you look just to the left of the B and the L there is kind of a ghost effect. I think this may be causing an image that is not very defined. Also, could I use the Avia disc on each input, by just switching the DVD player from input to input?

anyone have any input?

Originally posted by 20Deep
when I say that there is "ghosting", this is what I mean. Sorry for the bad quality picture but it was the best I could do. If you look just to the left of the B and the L there is kind of a ghost effect. I think this may be causing an image that is not very defined. Also, could I use the Avia disc on each input, by just switching the DVD player from input to input?


What you have pictured is not all that bad, compared to lots of very strong edge enhancement I have seen on RPTVs. It looks kinda like SVM in action.

SVM is designed into RPTVs for people who watch them from really far away. From a distance, it helps give you an exaggerated, "crisper" picture. When you get up close and personal with your display device, tho, you find that its exaggeration effects destroy fine line detail, and smush up the very high resolution we are looking for.

It's kinda like stage makeup. From a distance, you watch the play and everything seems just as it should. It is only when you go thru the reception line after the play is over that you see the exaggerated effects of stage makeup when viewed up close and personal. Up close and personal, it is garish and totally overblown.

Most RPTV videophiles disable the scan velocity modulation completely, to prevent excessive edge enhancement. Usually that is done by disconnecting the power leads that deliver voltage to the SVM board, where the bottommost coils that wrap the neck of the CRT come from, the coils that show their copper coated wire, farthest away from the face of the tube. This disables the board without disconnecting the coils themselves from the circuitry, which it is believed could affect other parts of other circuits. Keeping the coils connected keeps that circuit fully loaded even tho rendered dead by disco'ing the power going to the SMV circuitry.

The power leads of SVM circuitry are usually not shielded, since they do not contain signal, but just DC voltage. The signal leads that carry the SVM information will be shielded, and do not have to be disco'd.

Some simply disco the plugs delivering the SVM signal to the SVM coils, and it does not affect anything else. Each coil will have its own plug.

Some videophiles like NO edge enhancement, some like a little. I like just a little, and so does Runco. On most Mits's, VM is set to 1 rather than zero, where zero completely defeats it.


I'll let Hitachi owners take it from here, since I do not own a Hit.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by Mr Bob
What you have pictured is not all that bad, compared to lots of very strong edge enhancement I have seen on RPTVs. It looks kinda like SVM in action.

SVM is designed into RPTVs for people who watch them from really far away. From a distance, it helps give you an exaggerated, "crisper" picture. When you get up close and personal with your display device, tho, you find that its exaggeration effects destroy fine line detail, and smush up the very high resolution we are looking for.

It's kinda like stage makeup. From a distance, you watch the play and everything seems just as it should. It is only when you go thru the reception line after the play is over that you see the exaggerated effects of stage makeup when viewed up close and personal. Up close and personal, it is garish and totally overblown.

Most RPTV videophiles disable the scan velocity modulation completely, to prevent excessive edge enhancement. Usually that is done by disconnecting the power leads that deliver voltage to the SVM board, where the bottommost coils that wrap the neck of the CRT come from, the coils that show their copper coated wire, farthest away from the face of the tube. This disables the board without disconnecting the coils themselves from the circuitry, which it is believed could affect other parts of other circuits. Keeping the coils connected keeps that circuit fully loaded even tho rendered dead by disco'ing the power going to the SMV circuitry.

The power leads of SVM circuitry are usually not shielded, since they do not contain signal, but just DC voltage. The signal leads that carry the SVM information will be shielded. and do not have to be disco'd.

Some simply disco the plugs delivering the SVM signal to the SVM coils, and it does not affect anything else. Each coil will have its own plug.

Some videophiles like NO edge enhancement, some like a little. I like just a little, and so does Runco. On most Mits's, VM is set to 1 rather than zero, where zero completely defeats it.


I'll let Hitachi owners take it from here, since I do not own a Hit.


Mr Bob

Thanks alot Bob, I'm glad that this effect is supposed to be this way, I just thought that it was odd that when watching a DVD, the image wasn't as crisp as I thought it would be. I appreciate your input!

We've got an edge-enhancement option in the video menu. Did you have it turned off when you took that picture?

Matt

Check the Hitachi Q&A and Tweaks threads for info on taming ghosting/edge enhancement in the ISF menu.

The newer Hitachis do have variable edge-enhancement (OFF, LOW, MED, and HIGH), but some of the ISF options need to be tamed first.

Originally posted by bigrig
We've got an edge-enhancement option in the video menu. Did you have it turned off when you took that picture?

Matt
yea, i have that turned off. I think my best bet maybe to go into the ISF menu and try to get it sorted out in there. Also, it seems that the picture quality has gotten a little bit better recently. Do sets usually start to look better after they have been "broken in?" I've had my set a week and at the beginning, objects in the background were unclear, where as objects in the foreground were clear, now however it seems to have gotten a little bit better, is this normal?

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
Check the Hitachi Q&A and Tweaks threads for info on taming ghosting/edge enhancement in the ISF menu.

The newer Hitachis do have variable edge-enhancement (OFF, LOW, MED, and HIGH), but some of the ISF options need to be tamed first.
yea, i'll try that and see what I can do. Thanks. :)

I have a quick noob question regarding the horizontal line issue upon startup. I have a 57S500, 1 month old and the picture is outstanding. However, the horizontal static "issue" has just appeared within the last week. I have read previous posts wrt possible high voltage leaks in the green CRT lead and was wondering if this problem has occured frequently enough to warrant any type of standard fix by Hitachi. Does anyone have any info about this problem? I'd like to gather as much info as possible before I put in a service request. Thanks in advance. Great forum.

Originally posted by mm447
I have a quick noob question regarding the horizontal line issue upon startup. I have a 57S500, 1 month old and the picture is outstanding. However, the horizontal static "issue" has just appeared within the last week. I have read previous posts wrt possible high voltage leaks in the green CRT lead and was wondering if this problem has occured frequently enough to warrant any type of standard fix by Hitachi. Does anyone have any info about this problem? I'd like to gather as much info as possible before I put in a service request. Thanks in advance. Great forum.
what does this static look like? I think I may have the same thing but it only happens when there is a quick change of scene :mad:

I have heard some refer to the "Hitachi Q&A and Tweaks" thread, where is this located, I did a search and couldn't locate it?

Thanks,

Dave

20Deep,

It happens after power-up. White horizontal lines appear randomly and intermittently anywhere from a few seconds to a couple of minutes. After warm-up the picture is fine. The lines may appear later very briefly. BKC and others described the same problem in the following thread:
51S500: Static on screen when powered on (Sorry, the forum rules won't let me post the URL yet!)
which seemed to be caused by a faulty CRT lead. I don't know if their experiences are a one-off or, if common enough, perhaps Hitachi service reps have a standard fix available.

Hi all,

I've been lurking here a while now, and am finally ready to make my first post. I just bought a Hitachi 51S500. I have to say, I'm very dissapointed in the way that DVD's look. (HD stuff looks great)

I'm wondering if other S500/700 owners will share their thoughts on the following:

1) Are there any particular settings that I can adjust to make 480i/p DVDs look better?

2) Will have a ISF pro come out and do a calibration help make the PQ on DVD's?

3) Is there any other recommendations for making DVD's look better?

Thanks in advance to everyone who shares their thoughts.

--Matt

DVD can look awesome on these sets. For proper setup you need to dial in contrast and brightness (below 50%), learn and use dcam convergence/geometry and manual/electronic focus. Remember if this is your first large set you will see more of the flaws in dvds themselves ...some are soft, some have edge enhancement, some are dark, some are grainy. The "reference" titles are the ones to use to judge by ...not the poorly mastered ones.

just wanted to stop by and say that I am now a S500 owner (57S500 that is).

57" is...pretty goddam big, lol - looked smaller in CC ;)

i look forward to reading this thread!!

I noticed that when I play a dvd it shows on my 57s700 at 480p. One HDTV channel plays at 720p another channel plays at 480i.

Tell me is this something that I can set and change or is this determined by the source? Are some dvd's at 480p and some at something else?

Thanks
tv4u

WSM,

I just responded to your PM. Sorry for the delay.

Best regards,

Scot

Originally posted by tv4u
Tell me is this something that I can set and change or is this determined by the source? Are some dvd's at 480p and some at something else? SOURCE

All DVDs are 480i but will be outputted 480p if you have a progressive DVD player that outputs 480p.

More info about DVD, interlacing, and progressive scanning: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

Originally posted by mcomp72
I've been lurking here a while now, and am finally ready to make my first post. I just bought a Hitachi 51S500. I have to say, I'm very dissapointed in the way that DVD's look. (HD stuff looks great) What DVD player do you use and how do you have it connected?

Originally posted by DWPerrone
I have heard some refer to the "Hitachi Q&A and Tweaks" thread, where is this located, I did a search and couldn't locate it?

Thanks,

Dave **Popular Threads ** FAQ - Rules (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=323602)

Here are the links to the two main Hitachi tweaks threads:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=300466

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=273639

Originally posted by tv4u
I noticed that when I play a dvd it shows on my 57s700 at 480p. One HDTV channel plays at 720p another channel plays at 480i.

Tell me is this something that I can set and change or is this determined by the source? Are some dvd's at 480p and some at something else?

Thanks
tv4u


Your set will pick up automatically on which scanrate is being sent to it, and will lock on to that scanrate automatically. You can do nothing to change that.

You CAN, however, be in control of whether your DVDP is sending out 480i or 480p. Or in some cases, 1080i. I have not seen a progressive-capable set yet which did not allow for some kind of switching back and forth between the i and p of 480. Sometimes it is done within the user menu of the player, sometimes it is via a switch on the back.

Some, perhaps all, HD tuners - otherwise known as STB's, set top boxes - have switching to determine what gets sent out. On my Panny early edition HD STB, I can switch it from sending out JUST 480p, to exactly what it is receiving OTA. If it is receiving 480i that is what it will send out, because it cannot upconvert anything to 1080i if it did not start out that way. If it is being sent 720p, that is what gets sent out. Unless it is set - via its switch on the back - to where only 480p gets sent out, which downconverts to 480p anything above it. Which of course is a marked downgrade from either 720p or 1080i, but allows for any non-HDready set with at least progressive scanning capability to pick it up. There were some, in the short changeover era between 480i and 480p/HDreadiness.

I don't know if the newer STBs are doing that tho, and I am curious. Has anybody heard of HD STBs which upconvert EVERYTHING they receive - aside from 720p and 1080i, which need no upconversion - to 1080i if it started out as 480i? How do they do? I know of several DVDPs that use the Sigma 8500 chipset, which does a marvelous job of upconverting the 480i used in DVDs to 1080i. The new gen Elites can also upconvert 480 to 1080i. Is this also being done on HD STBs?


Mr Bob

Originally posted by mcomp72
[B]Hi all,

I've been lurking here a while now, and am finally ready to make my first post. I just bought a Hitachi 51S500. I have to say, I'm very dissapointed in the way that DVD's look. (HD stuff looks great)




Remember, each scanrate has its own individual set of registers, not only in the image structure part, but in the colorations aspects also.

You could have a calibrator in, limit him to working on just one of the scanrates, and have exactly the same problem.

Could be that the factory had a really gifted factory calibrator working on the HD, and a not so gifted one working on the SD. Wouldn't surprise me that they would be maintaining separation of sets of activities, on that kind of thing.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by Mr Bob
I don't know if the newer STBs are doing that tho, and I am curious. Has anybody heard of HD STBs which upconvert EVERYTHING they receive - aside from 720p and 1080i, which need no upconversion - to 1080i if it started out as 480i? How do they do? I know of several DVDPs that use the Sigma 8500 chipset, which does a marvelous job of upconverting the 480i used in DVDs to 1080i. The new gen Elites can also upconvert 480 to 1080i. Is this also being done on HD STBs?


Mr Bob

While not *quite* an STB, the HD TiVo converts everything to the resolution of your choice. This includes 480i digital OTA or 480i DirecTV channels. I don't have experience with other upconversions, but I think the HD TiVo does an admirable job of it.

-Andy

hi all...

I haven't messed with my hitachi much (at work now :() but i was wondering if i could put the link to my "s500" post here.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=417763

in short, i have some concerns about how some DVDs have a large amount of black bars on the top and bottom. the different aspect modes are confusing.

When watching gone in 60 seconds, i put it on "16:9 standard" and the amount of black bars is alot - which is rather surprising...i know there are different "widescreen" ratios 2.35:1, and 1.85:1 (i think?). If anyone has any thoughts, it is greatly appreciated!

Movies with a 2.35:1 ratio will have black bars if you view it on "16:9 standard". As long as you have adjusted contrast and brightness down from torch mode to 30-40 and limit 2.35:1 movies to 15% of your viewing, you shouldn't have to worry about burn in.

i figured as much - i just wish there was a standard - i was shocked to see THAT much blackbar on '60 seconds :-/

Thanks for the info rdwalt :)

Imagine how much bigger the bars would be on a 4:3 set.

I purchase some expensive component cables with a fiber optic audio cable to hook my dvd player to my Hitachi 57s700 and I can not tell any difference in them versus el cheapo RCA plug composite cables.

Am I doing something wrong or is that typical with this particular TV.

Thanks
tv4u

Originally posted by tv4u
I purchase some expensive component cables with a fiber optic audio cable to hook my dvd player to my Hitachi 57s700 and I can not tell any difference in them versus el cheapo RCA plug composite cables.

Am I doing something wrong or is that typical with this particular TV.

Thanks
tv4u What DVD player are you using?

If you have a test disc like AVIA, the moving zone plate pattern will make the difference between composite and component quite apparent.

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
What DVD player do you use and how do you have it connected?

I have an an RCA RC5220P, and it's connected via S-Video. It's not a progressive scan player, but I've read on this forum that it's better to input 480i from a DVD and let the Hitachi do the 3:2 pulldown. Is this not true?

--Matt

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
What DVD player are you using?

If you have a test disc like AVIA, the moving zone plate pattern will make the difference between composite and component quite apparent.

I have the Panasonic DMR-E80H. It is a DVD recorder.
I do have the AVIA disc but I have not used it yet I have watched some of it. The reason I have not used it yet is because I was waiting on the guy that is supposed to mount my speakers.

I could go ahead with the video part though. Tell me where to go on the disc and what to do if you would please. If I don't see a change I am definately going to take those cables back.

Thanks
tv4u

You don't have to have $$$$ top-of-the-line cables, but definitely use component video cables.

Matt

I have played with my new 57S500, AVIA has been ordered and it is on it's way. How long do i wait till i manually converge this thing?

a bit off topic (sorry)...

I have now noticed that virtually none of my DVDs are pure 16:9 a ton are 1.85:1 and a few are even 2.35:1 D'OH.

Now, I can't really get rid of the black bars. And my contrast is about 30 and brightness is about 35ish (night time). I can get rid of the bars by doing "16:9 zoom" but will the bars damage my new hitachi?

are the bars caused by movies or DVD player?

thanks for helping a noob :)

PS: I LOVE THIS SET

Originally posted by phenolite
I have played with my new 57S500, AVIA has been ordered and it is on it's way. How long do i wait till i manually converge this thing?


Converge to your heart's content. Just be aware that points drift a lot more during the first 100 hours than they will later.



I[ have now noticed that virtually none of my DVDs are pure 16:9 a ton are 1.85:1 and a few are even 2.35:1 D'OH.


Pure 16x9 is 1.7777777:1 (just do the math). It's very close to 1.85:1. So close as to be inconsequential.

Now, I can't really get rid of the black bars. And my contrast is about 30 and brightness is about 35ish (night time). I can get rid of the bars by doing "16:9 zoom" but will the bars damage my new hitachi?


All fixed images will eventually damage any CRT device, if left on too bright for too long. Black bars are definitely fixed images. It all comes down to premature aging of the phosphors at certain areas, vs. regular aging at other areas.



are the bars caused by movies or DVD player?


Both. Doesn't matter. Make sure you are running it at lowered light level whenever they are up there, if you are doing it more than 15% of the time.



thanks for helping a noob :)

PS: I LOVE THIS SET


You got it.


Mr Bob

wow...thanks so much :)

good point on 1.85:1 movies

the 2.35:1 movies are another story - though they do look cool on the tv :)

I may as well wait for AVIA to get here before i bother w/color, etc :)

thanks again!

Originally posted by mcomp72
I have an an RCA RC5220P, and it's connected via S-Video. It's not a progressive scan player, but I've read on this forum that it's better to input 480i from a DVD and let the Hitachi do the 3:2 pulldown. Is this not true?

--Matt

I was wondering this exact same thing. My new S500 arrives this morning, and I want to know if I have to upgrade my DVD player as well.
Also, if the DVD player is not progressive scan, is there any benefit to using component cables, or would s-video do just as well?

480i and using the Hitachi 3-2 pulldown (auto movie mode) works great. I've got an el-cheapo prog scan DVD player, so this is what I do. Top of the line players with the Faroudja chip, etc. might be a different story.

I use component cables, I'm not sure how much of an improvement over S-video they provide. Try 'em both, see what you think.

Matt

Bigrig,
Thanks for the advice. By the way, I am also a fan of Inward Singing. ;)

Sweet! :D

I've had my 51s700 for 6 months, and I love it. But, ever since I got Voom, (which I also like very much) my convergence is off everytime I turn on the TV. I have to adjust it everytime I turn on the TV. It's worse on the left side. A lay person wouldn't notice it, but when I use the program guide, it's really noticable.

I am using the DVI input (which I wasn't before. Why would the guns move so easily.

Has anyone had this problem? I'm new to this avsforum and would appreciate any help.

BTW, I don't think Voom has anything to do with it. But previously, I was using that input for my component, progressive scan DVD player.

My speakers are sheilded Bose, so I know that's not the problem.

Originally posted by mcomp72
I have an an RCA RC5220P, and it's connected via S-Video. It's not a progressive scan player, but I've read on this forum that it's better to input 480i from a DVD and let the Hitachi do the 3:2 pulldown. Is this not true?

--Matt You need to upgrade your player

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4000997#post4000997

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
With the Hitachi, progressive scan vs. interlaced does not really matter.

What does matter is the quality of the MPEG decoder and the electrical characteristics of the component output of your DVD player.

A player with good component output will look great on the Hitachi whether outputting interlaced or progressive. A player with a poor output, progressive scan or not will perform poorly.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi

What are you seeing that is indicating that your convergence is off?? I also have Voom and I do know that the whole picture is ofset to the left between an inch or two. If this is what you are seeing I would not worry about it. I also know that the Hitachi's have a "squish" on the left hand side especially on the lower corner, this will make text and video look like it's been compressed and roll off on that edge.

There are several other forums out there which are addressing these issues. The Voom receiver is supposed to be getting a software upgrade soon which should allow us to center the image properly. The Hitachi "squish" however seems to be a like it or lump it sort of issue as I have read elsewhere..

I have a 65T500 which I have fully redone geometry on with the overlay and centered the image using DVE and I am happy. I do have the left side issue and I can live with it as no body else notices it.

I'm referring to my convergence below -


"I've had my 51s700 for 6 months, and I love it. But, ever since I got Voom, (which I also like very much) my convergence is off everytime I turn on the TV. I have to adjust it everytime I turn on the TV. It's worse on the left side. A lay person wouldn't notice it, but when I use the program guide, it's really noticable.

I am using the DVI input (which I wasn't before. Why would the guns move so easily.

Has anyone had this problem? I'm new to this avsforum and would appreciate any help.

BTW, I don't think Voom has anything to do with it. But previously, I was using that input for my component, progressive scan DVD player.

My speakers are sheilded Bose, so I know that's not the problem."

Can you explain, or take a picture of the "problem". It's going to be hard to help you fix it without an example. Are you seeing a seperation of the colors( red, green, blue) next to text ot what??

Do you own a test disk, DVE, AVIA, ect..?? Do you see the same thing with the test patterns on these disks?

Also another though is how are you correcting the convergence? manual mode on magic focus menu, or through the DCAM mode?? I had a problem where the "magic focus" got F'ed up and I had it set to run everyday at power off and that screwed up the whole thing. This prompted me to do the full DCAM correction on the set and re-initialize the "magic focus", which fixed everything.

have you tried hitting "magic focus", is it giving you any errors??

I always do convergence manually.

I'm seeing separation of colors. It's really apparent when i'm looking at the program guide where there is sharp text, It seems to be the worst on the left side of the screen. When I go into manual convergence, you can see how the red and blue lines have gone askew. I re-align them every day, and every time the set come bcak on, the left side red and blue are off alignment. Why would it drift so fast?!

I've seen "DCAM" mode mentioned several times and have looked for something explaining it in threads. What is it? What do I use it for? How do I use it?

ANy help is most appreciated.

In general, CRTs shouldn't be converged until they're "warmed up" If you're expecting convergence from cold tubes your expectations may be out of line with physics.

man this is a long thread...

I have a 57S500 that I have had for about 2 days. AVIA is in the mail. Should I just wait until there are 100 or so hours on it before i even bother with anything?

When I do the EXIT + POWER thing to get into the service menu, the menu comes up, but when i highlight "service" and hit right on the joystick thingy, the screen goes blank except for (sometimes) a thin white line in the center. If i hit "exit" on the remote, it goes back to the original menu, but first, it showes the menu with a bit of color drifting to the left. does my tv have to go back already?

also, where do i tell the hitachi to do the 3:2 pulldown? (i'm a newbie with this tv, bigtime)

thanks so much!!

I've had my set for 6 months. The convergence shouldn't be off when I first turn it on.

Originally posted by FrankJo
I've had my set for 6 months. The convergence shouldn't be off when I first turn it on.


Sorry. Wrong. See response from mrmike above.

All RPTVs require warmup time for their convergence circuits to "settle in". I don't trust my Panny 65's convergence for the first 45 minutes.

There is a heavy duty time coefficient re. warmup of the ICs that do the convergence work. They run ungodly hot in there. We can optimize it for turn-on, or we can optimize it for after turn-on, after it is fully warmed up.

We can't do both.

See the reference to physics above -


Mr Bob

Originally posted by phenolite
also, where do i tell the hitachi to do the 3:2 pulldown? (i'm a newbie with this tv, bigtime)
It's called "Auto Movie Mode" on my set it is available with the S video and component inputs, just set it to ON.

FrankJo:
Try the component video cables and see if that gets rid of it.
Try waiting for a half hour before you fix the convergence, make sure your saving the settings, and after you do turn the set off and back on to see what the result is.. After that you may want to try to hit the "magic focus" and see what it does for you. If that still doesn't help you will probably want to setup a service call...

what about the service menu issue (see 2 posts above)

any ideas?

The "service" selection in the service menu has some special purposes described in the service manual on page 67. It has something to do with the DCU cutoff. It has something to do with the retrace lines... I'm not too sure what the usefulness of this adjustment is to us tweakers..


The main selection you need in the service menu is the "ISF mode" it contains the entries that should be modified to correct color decoding, sharpness and others. I do believe there is a thread dealing exclusively with these settings, but I can't seem to find it right now.

As always write down the initial value of anything you change just in case it has a negative impact and you want to put it back. And when you do change something you must click the joystick to save the setting.

Tweak with care!

cmslick, thanks a TON for the info - i thought my set was screwed, lol. kinda hard not to freak out when you think your new, expensive tv isn't working right, lol.

now, i did not find ISF mode. I will look again tonite, but I scrolled through everything and really didn't come across any "isf mode" there was an "eeprom" thing, and some other things. I'll look again though, like i said.

Thanks!!

cmslick3 - Thanks for the info, I'll be more patient.

Also, Can anyone explain this "DCAM" that I see so many of you refering to? The whats, hows, etc.

If it it adjusts settings, I promise not to do it before I have the set on for at least a 1/2 hr!

frank, i may just wait until the set warms up for about 100hrs..

it may be just me, but the set's picture is getting better day by day...only had it since monday and the godfather part 1 looked incredible!

DCAM is similar to the manual convergence, but it's saved into the TV to serve as the convergence template for the Magic Focus.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=273639

Get to readin! ;)

Matt

I will give you a link through a PM which contains detailed information on the DCAM mode and how it works. But I will warn you now that you should not attempt to do a full DCAM correction without an overlay grid, which is also available through the link I will send you.

The 100 hours is a break in period, in general the electronics inside need time to find their norm. During this time the parts will be put through their most punishment and should weed out major faults with them.

However, during and after the 100 hours of operation, you still should wait at least a half hour before making any adjustments to your set to allow the internal components to come up to operating temperature.
When components are cold they work differently than they do when they come up to operating temperature. Just like newer cars take about a minute after starting to find the correct idle. Have you ever noticed the high RMP right after start slowly coming down to normal? It's the same as the electronics in anything need a little bit of startup time to get into their grove.

Now some people would take this to the extreme and say: "well then leave the set on all the time with a blank screen". This is a big NO NO because it will cause excessive amounts of time at full temp, just like you wouldn't run you car all the time.

cmslick,
Can you post instructions exactly how you 'centered the image'? I'm guessing you adjusted the 'H Position' in the service menu.

You are correct the Hposi on the initial screen when you enter the SM is what is used to center the image. I used the overscan pattern from the DVE disk to determine the center of the image VS the measured center. That is assuming your geometry and overscan is correct. Oh and another thing I found is that different DVD players have different "centers" also.



My overscan was off from the begining it was almost 7% on the right and close to 10% on left. That's what prompted me to correct the geometry and overscan from scratch. To further add insult to injury the magic focus took a dump on me which left me with a nice looking raindow screen since I had it set to run at power off.

The things you will need to have to get this done are:
A word of caution you will need to open your TV, there is HIGH voltage in there and I'm sure if anything gets broken by you the warranty will be useless.

1. geometry overlay for your screen size(easy way), OR lots of string a metric ruler, tape, and the spacing measurements(this is the hard way).

2. The service manual for your model will be your best friend. It has detailed instructions on correcting overscan and geometry.

3. You will also need a small flat blade long shank insulated screwdriver, electrical tape over all the metal will work also, don't want to short anything or get a good jolt.

4. THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART: LOTS OF TIME! IT TOOK ME 4 HOURS TO GET IT STRAIGHT AND SETUP PROPERLY.

I will send you a PM with a like to a site with a good set of instructions and information. I've rambled on long enough.

FYI, the overscan pattern on DVE is correct horizontally...but shifted vertically. The AVIA pattern is correct.

interesting.. How far is it shifted in what direction??

I borrowed a Magnavox DVD player from a guy at work and it was shifted more than an inch to the right, where my Sony was dead centered. Is it possible that dvd players have centering problems? I would hope that they should be able to center an image at the factory... Oh well I guess I will just adjust the TV and quit whining..

57S500 Delivered today. I am watching the Orioles - Royals game in standard def. I must say it looks ok. Not as good as a regular TV but definately acceptable.

HiDef will be installed tomorrow. I'm assuming the cable channels broadcast digitally will be even better than standard and that the hidef will beat them all. I am not planning on hooking my "old" Toshiba (5 yo) up to this set but will probably get a new player.

My plan is to do very little to this set until HD is up and running and the 100 hour break in period that so many of you suggest is complete; just in time for football season.

Any other suggestions?

Originally posted by rdwalt
cmslick,
Can you post instructions exactly how you 'centered the image'? I'm guessing you adjusted the 'H Position' in the service menu.


When centering the image, the easiest way to find dead center is to tape 2 nonsagging strings from opposing corners so that they intersect in the middle of your screen. That's dead center.

I always use the AVIA Letterbox Enhanced Circlehatch Grid for my geometry, which includes recentering and resizing. I am not a fan of templates. I used one once and doubt if I ever will again. Gave me the wrong sizing and I had to do the whole thing over again anyway.

With the AVIA grid I mentioned, when the circles are all true circles - not ovals - and the squares are all the same size, and all corner and edge brackets are equidistant from your screenframe, you've got it. Using both circlehatch grids and internally generated squarehatch grids is good, to bounce back and forth between them. Each tells its own story.

Doublecheck your pattern edge with your screenframe edge for straightness using the edges of the AVIA Overscan pattern. Doublecheck for speedbumps with rolling credits, or for HD, with constantly panning travelogues, like on PBS HD.

4-4.5% overscan is what has been found to be the best, by calibrators, for RPTVs. Any less than that and they really can't handle it. More than that and you are losing valuable areas of your picture. Downsizing your pic from factory overscan to 4-4.5% also makes your pixelpack denser, giving you higher resolution.

But when you change your sizing, you hose everything, including your convergence. So don't do it unless you LOVE learning curves, have LOTS of time on your hands, and are emotionally ready for such a task. Once you have started redoing the points - green or otherwise - you will find you have passed the point of no return VERY early on.

We calibrators can get a resizing and high precision convergence done on a CRT based RPTV in just a few hours per scanrate. A totally inexperienced newbie could spend 2 to 4 times that amount of time, easily, and in some cases do it as well as one who is already experienced.

And sometimes not. Be careful out there.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by phenolite

When I do the EXIT + POWER thing to get into the service menu, the menu comes up, but when i highlight "service" and hit right on the joystick thingy, the screen goes blank except for (sometimes) a thin white line in the center. If i hit "exit" on the remote, it goes back to the original menu, but first, it showes the menu with a bit of color drifting to the left. does my tv have to go back already?


Don't know what the Service selection does. Gives me a light hor. line also.

To get to the ISF menu, scroll upwards rather than downwards. Upwards gets you to a different set of menus than downwards. Or at least the same menu but from a much more convenient direction -


Mr Bob

Just got my 57s500 recently. I'm using 4:3 expanded mode for regular 4x3 cable stations, but had a question pertaining to dvds.
What aspect should a movie purist be using on 1.85:1 dvds and 2.35:1 dvds, anamorphic and non-anamorphic? I don't have to fill the whole screen--just want to get the best quality picture without cutting off any of the image.

You don't zoom a non-anamorphic dvd do you? I tried that with Titanic and it got grainier and I think cuts off a little too. What are you other s500/700 users using? I know about the other threads, but each set calls these settings something slightly different.

i use 16:9 standard - keeps the ratio the intact and no image loss

another question, is there anyway to NOT make PS2 games look like crap on a HDTV or the 57S500 for that matter? I'm using sony's "component" crap for the outputs - but games look blurry and lacking detail - ideas?

When I do the EXIT + POWER thing to get into the service menu, the menu comes up, but when i highlight "service" and hit right on the joystick thingy, the screen goes blank except for (sometimes) a thin white line in the center. If i hit "exit" on the remote, it goes back to the original menu, but first, it showes the menu with a bit of color drifting to the left. does my tv have to go back already?

The service mode is used to set G2 voltage trimpots. I recommend not attempting this adjustment unless you have a color analyzer to allow you to correct via Drives and Cuts.

Bill

Originally posted by cmslick3
interesting.. How far is it shifted in what direction??

I borrowed a Magnavox DVD player from a guy at work and it was shifted more than an inch to the right, where my Sony was dead centered. Is it possible that dvd players have centering problems? I would hope that they should be able to center an image at the factory... Oh well I guess I will just adjust the TV and quit whining.. This is called pixel cropping on DVD players. My Denon 3800's image is not centered because of pixel cropping, so I had to recenter via my Mits' geometry adjustments.

Originally posted by phenolite
another question, is there anyway to NOT make PS2 games look like crap on a HDTV or the 57S500 for that matter? I'm using sony's "component" crap for the outputs - but games look blurry and lacking detail - ideas? Upgrade to Xbox...or just wait until PS3. I don't think PS2 games look that bad...in fact Gran Turismo 3 looks pretty damn good on the 57S500. Also, setting Edge Enhancement to at least LOW but most times MED makes PS2 games appear more detailed (you may even like HIGH). Give it a try

Originally posted by gambrelw
The service mode is used to set G2 voltage trimpots. I recommend not attempting this adjustment unless you have a color analyzer to allow you to correct via Drives and Cuts.

Bill

Bill, when I went into that mode, I had a red line that was at an angle to the horizontal line. Does this indicate the raster or something is off?

If I can still get everything converged in the DCAM, does it matter?

Thanks,

Matt

When my 57S500 was delivered on Thursday I hooked it up until the HD Box was installed by the cable company (Adelphia).

The SD pictures hooked from wall into TV looked pretty good.

However, today after they hooked up the Cable box, HD and digital channels look great but the SD chanells look worse.

Is it possible the box is making it look worse because the TV is enhancing poor signals when directly fed?

Should I hook up a splittler and use ANTA for the SD signals and Video1 (component is hooked up) for the digital and hidef channels? Would this split the signal too much?

Originally posted by DWPerrone
When my 57S500 was delivered on Thursday I hooked it up until the HD Box was installed by the cable company (Adelphia).

The SD pictures hooked from wall into TV looked pretty good.

However, today after they hooked up the Cable box, HD and digital channels look great but the SD chanells look worse.

Is it possible the box is making it look worse because the TV is enhancing poor signals when directly fed?

Should I hook up a splittler and use ANTA for the SD signals and Video1 (component is hooked up) for the digital and hidef channels? Would this split the signal too much?


I just had Comcast HU their standard issue Motorola HD box yesterday at my new location, and the guy demo'd how inferior its SD looked compared to the SD going straight in - straight from a splitter rather than thru a box. The box is phenomenal in HD, but makes SD worse when the box is in circuit.

Try with and without, see what you find. Using a splitter will not harm the signal's picture quality on HD as far as how good the pic looks - it's digital and either you'll get that signal perfectly or you won't. And when you don't, the pic's quality is not what will suffer, but its quantity. As in stuttering, or "panelling" - another word for pixellating.

The HD pic only needs a certain amount of signal for HD pic quality perfection - 65% and up has always worked from what I have seen - and it CAN be overmodulated if too strong, inserting herringbone. As in overmodulating with over 100%, which I have seen done with an OTA antenna that was working just a little bit too well. Inserting an attenuator - or simply adding a splitter - works to bring it back down to ideal levels.

Using a double splitter will attenuate each end run's signal by 3.5db. A triple will do the same as 2 doubles, one in series with the other: one end run - from the first one - will be down by 3.5cb, the other 2 - from the second one, whose input comes from the other side of the first one - will be down by 7db each.

I found that my RS half-price 10' roof antenna worked a little too well when feeding directly in to the HD - herringbone - but when I added a triple splitter, the attenuation made the signal go right into the ideal reception range. Herringbone that had been there when full tilt boogie, disappeared when split down properly.

That RS antenna is exceptional, and I highly recommend it. Only cost me $49.95 at half price. I have used and installed Channel Master for clients, but they work no better than that RS antenna. Its slanted panes also make it slightly more directional than straight panes design would.

All this can be enough to affect your SD. SD can have herringbone if too strong and it will be grainy if too weak. So the whole thing comes down to being an incredible balancing act!

Mr Bob

1) What do the rest of you use for non-anamorphic dvds; you don't zoom do you? I guess if you're very worried about burn-in some people zoom to cover the screen. I've read varying viewpoints, but the consensus seems to be use zoom on non-anamorphic 1.85:1 dvds. Don't zoom non-anamorphic 2.35.1 dvds.

2) Are most dvds labeled whether they are 1.85:1 or 2.35:1?

Personally I would not buy a DVD unless it is anamorphic and yes most but not all DVDs will have the aspect ratio on the back.

Originally posted by gambrelw
The service mode is used to set G2 voltage trimpots. I recommend not attempting this adjustment unless you have a color analyzer to allow you to correct via Drives and Cuts.

Bill


So the Service register does the same thing as the manual hardwired Service switch did, in the old days. Got it.

Thanks, Bill -


Mr Bob

Originally posted by dale001
[B]1) What do the rest of you use for non-anamorphic dvds; you don't zoom do you? I guess if you're very worried about burn-in some people zoom to cover the screen. I've read varying viewpoints, but the consensus seems to be use zoom on non-anamorphic 1.85:1 dvds. Don't zoom non-anamorphic 2.35.1 dvds.


Since 16x9 is 1.77777777:1, 1.85:1 usually fits the screen perfectly without any zoom, on 16x9 HDreadys.


Mr Bob

Bob,
Thanks for your detailed response. You always have great advice and tips and I appreciate the time you take to educate the inexperienced.

Physically finding the center of the TV is the easy part. My question is what is the easiest way to adjust the TV? The more I read the more I see that adjusting everything in the DCAM is the way to go.

When you said, "when you change your sizing, you hose everything" were you talking about adjusting the H Position in the SM? I'm guessing yes.

Another question.When the SM says that Raster Position Adjustment will move an entire color. does it mean it will move the entire grid as a whole for each color? That what it sounds like.

I think that's enough questions for now. :p

For the non anamorphic DVD's I just watch it. The black bars are not going to be on your screen long enough to cause any perminent damage from what I have read and heard from folks at work. UNLESS of course you have your contrast set to SOLAR mode (i.e. 50%+). I would rather see what the movies is supposed to look like instead of worrying about the TV.

Sometimes you just have to sit back and enjoy the movie!

Bill, when I went into that mode, I had a red line that was at an angle to the horizontal line. Does this indicate the raster or something is off? If I can still get everything converged in the DCAM, does it matter?



It has nothing to do with convergence. You can usually see all three lines. They don't line up perfectly on top of each other, especially at the ends.

Another question.When the SM says that Raster Position Adjustment will move an entire color. does it mean it will move the entire grid as a whole for each color? That what it sounds like.

There are two ways to adjust the raster postion. One is in the service menu with the H/V postion parameters, which you are already aware of. The second is in DCAM mode. You hit the "freeze" button with the desired color selected and use the joystick to shift the raster.

They are both the same thing. The only difference is that you are moving one color vs three colors at a time..

You can center the picture with AVIA overscan pattern and the H/V parameters. However, it may not be perfect due to line spacing in DCAM. To obtain perfect centering and geometry, you will need to correct geometry and I recommend a template.

Bill

Originally posted by gambrelw
...it may not be perfect due to line spacing in DCAM

Hi Bill,
Thanks for your reply. Again another source for a wealth of information. I understand adjusting geometry is the way to go to get things centered but can you elaborate on this some more?

Thanks,
Rob

The line spacing should be the same between horizontal lines and the same between vertical lines. This excludes the very edges and the 2nd line in from the top and bottom. If the line spacing isn't correct, your geometry will be incorrect even if all the lines are perfectly straight. This defect will look like a wave or speed bump during panning scenes.

Bill

Thanks for the replies; it can get confusing. Take this quote regarding the Hitachi sets:


"4:3 Zoom1=This mode is used for non-enhanced widescreen material, either from dvds or from the networks."


I, like others, am not paranoid about screen burn-in (my set's calibrated), so I don't feel compelled to fill every inch of my screen at the expense of quality or cutting off the image. So zooming doesn't make much sense to me unless I'm missing something here.

Thanks again.

morning!

TWC just came by and set me up with HDTV and some digital cable! HDTV looks...dear god...so awesome.

I do have a few concerns however, and this may be more suitable for the HDTV forum (in which case let me know)

The box goes to the 1080i comp. in. but some digital cable stuff is NOT 16:9 so there are black bars on the sides. now if i do 16:9 zoom, i can't see the guide. how do i get rid of these black bars for non-16:9 programming? :(

Gotta have the box output 480i or p to use the TV stretch modes.

Matt

but will I lose HD stuff? like 1080i? stuff - it is a scientific atlanta 3100HD

btw, Discovery HD is just unreal - beautiful

but I have noticed that the center of the screen is brighter than the corners - this a bad thing, or normal for S500/CRTs

yea, i have no idea how to output 480i/p w/this thing - tech just came and left - didn't seem knowledgable at all...sorta smelled like booze too, lol

My HDTV box has both component and S-Video connections. I use the Component connection for HDTV and S-Video for SDTV. Both are wired to my TV at the same time. I use a universal remote to switch between the two. The S-Video interface braodcasts a standard SD 4:3 picture on all the channels so the TV just inserts its usual gray bars on the sides - no black bars!

This box also butvhers my local cable channels so I run them direct to my TV also.

Greg

yea, as soon as i posted the question i figured it out, lol

thanks a ton greg - now I can save the component for only HDTV :)

Thanks Bob,

I hooked my SD to ANT A and HD Cable Box into Video1; Standard channels looked much better when separated from cable box.

I bought a new Sony DVD player and DVD's look good. However, I also have a DVD Recorder Philips DVDR75 hooked up to another TV. I recorded several football games last season onto VHS then transferred them to DVD. When I viewed these DVD's on the Hitachi the picture was horrific. The players when in motion were blurry and meshing together. I guess I'll have to reserve these DVD's too my regular TV unless someone has another recommendation.

One question... When should I have "auto movie mode" set to "on". For Standard Def, Hi Def, DVD or "all"?

Thanks,

Dave

i think the movie mode does the 3:2 pulldown correction.

I tried it "off" and the matrix main menu looked kinda crappy - then again, i'm STILL using a PS2 :( *smacks self in face*

Okay, after experimenting I discovered that, yes, non-anamorphic dvds appear squished if you keep them in 16x9 (full) mode. I haven't decided yet whether "4x3 zoom 1" or "4x3 expanded" is the best way to handle non-anamorphic dvds. Both do not cut off any part of the image.
Do most of you use 4x3 zoom1? 4x3 zoom2 fills the entire screen, but at a cost.

Originally posted by rdwalt
Bob,
Thanks for your detailed response. You always have great advice and tips and I appreciate the time you take to educate the inexperienced.


Thanks. Nice to be appreciated.

Just don't all be cowboys out there. Hire us calibrators. We don't get paid to be here on these boards. The only way to make these hours we spend here pay for themselves helping you guys out, is by enough of you guys out there hiring us for calibrations.



Physically finding the center of the TV is the easy part. My question is what is the easiest way to adjust the TV? The more I read the more I see that adjusting everything in the DCAM is the way to go.

No, adjusting with the measures Bill outlined is the way to go - using the Freeze button. If you do it all in DCAM, you will wind up stressing out your points, as they will all have to be shifted left or right or up and down. You want to keep your points as centered, zero'd and "nulled out" as you can.



When you said, "when you change your sizing, you hose everything" were you talking about adjusting the H Position in the SM? I'm guessing yes.


Not necessarily, if it is just a small correction.

Sizing is not the same as positioning. Positioning you can usually get away with without really hosing everything. Sizing is a different story.

When you resize RPTVs as much as is needed in most brands of RPTV, down to the much more reasonable 4-4.5% - recapturing lost areas of picture, and making your pixelpack much more dense, rendering much higher resolution - THAT is when everything gets really hosed.

Positioning you can usually get away with.


Another question.When the SM says that Raster Position Adjustment will move an entire color. does it mean it will move the entire grid as a whole for each color? That what it sounds like.


Yes.

I think that's enough questions for now. :p


Yes. For now... We'll be back...


:cool:


Mr bob

Originally posted by Mr Bob
No, adjusting with the measures Bill outlined is the way to go - using the Freeze button. If you do it all in DCAM, you will wind up stressing out your points, as they will all have to be shifted left or right or up and down. You want to keep your points as centered, zero'd and "nulled out" as you can. The freeze button is used in DCAM mode. Becuase DCAM/freeze only moves on color at a time, use H/V positioning adjustments to center the screen (as that moves all three colors together).

So, I've had my 57S500 for a week and I am incredibly happy with it.

PS2 games look like crap and I am gonna put my PS2 on my old TV when I get a new DVD player (soon!!).

HDTV is simply unreal - talk about bragging rights! I saw some HD fireworks tonite, just...spectacular

DVDs are pretty good (even on PS2)

I haven't tweaked it much because I am rather intimidated/don't know where to start, AND i wanna wait until breakin period is over.

I put in Saving Private Ryan today, and I did notice one thing...during the opening scene, when it is rather bright, the black bars on top/bottom also are a bit bright, even with brightness turned down - like the brightness sort of bleeds into the bars? i'm not sure if i'm explainin it right

other than that, i'm one happy tv owner - thanks hitachi!!!

Power to PS2 pheno! with each happy hitachi customer, i inch closer.

I don't recommend moving the DCAM grid as a whole (centering) to fix offcenter/overscan problems. Properly doing your geometry accurately to spec will fix them. After this is done, THEN any minor adjustments that might still be needed (not likely) can be done.

I used a translucent grid overlay and took my time on getting the GRN spot on (GRN is the 'base'). This fixed a dramatically off overscan along with a concave of the horizontal borders when watching widescreen DVD's and squishing of stock tickers.

<<I haven't decided yet whether "4x3 zoom 1" or "4x3 expanded" is the best way to handle non-anamorphic dvds. Both do not cut off any part of the image.
Do most of you use 4x3 zoom1? 4x3 zoom2 fills the entire screen, but at a cost.>>

Actually the best way to handle non-anamorphic dvds is to sell them. ;)

Originally posted by phenolite
I put in Saving Private Ryan today, and I did notice one thing...during the opening scene, when it is rather bright, the black bars on top/bottom also are a bit bright, even with brightness turned down - like the brightness sort of bleeds into the bars? i'm not sure if i'm explainin it right


wondering if anyone has any ideas on this?

Originally posted by phenolite
I put in Saving Private Ryan today, and I did notice one thing...during the opening scene, when it is rather bright, the black bars on top/bottom also are a bit bright, even with brightness turned down - like the brightness sort of bleeds into the bars? i'm not sure if i'm explainin it right This is due to the poor DC restoration on the Hitachi. Black level raises substantially with bright scenes. What is your contrast set to?

it ranges from 30 - 38

try 28.. and up the brightness a bit if needed.. I have been pleased with this on my set for the letterboxed movies.. Keeps the black BLACK

Originally posted by Marc Alexander

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by phenolite
I put in Saving Private Ryan today, and I did notice one thing...during the opening scene, when it is rather bright, the black bars on top/bottom also are a bit bright, even with brightness turned down - like the brightness sort of bleeds into the bars? i'm not sure if i'm explainin it right
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is due to the poor DC restoration on the Hitachi. Black level raises substantially with bright scenes. What is your contrast set to?Also, internal reflections will also cause/contribute to this effect. This can be reduced but not eliminated by lining the interior of the cabinet with Duvetyne.

yea, i read about this - just the thought of converging the set scares me, let alone lining the inside of it with fabric 0_o

Originally posted by Scottn1
I don't recommend moving the DCAM grid as a whole (centering) to fix offcenter/overscan problems. Properly doing your geometry accurately to spec will fix them. After this is done, THEN any minor adjustments that might still be needed (not likely) can be done.

I used a translucent grid overlay and took my time on getting the GRN spot on (GRN is the 'base'). This fixed a dramatically off overscan along with a concave of the horizontal borders when watching widescreen DVD's and squishing of stock tickers.


I don't know what "Properly doing your geometry accurately to spec" is, if not moving the entire grid as a whole when necessary. If you are saying that you did it all with your points, I don't agree with your methodology.

As I have said above, keeping your points nulled out as much as possible via other methods of overall movement - called Coarse geometry in other circles - is the best way to not stress your convergence system. One example is vertical pincushion, which is a concave of the horizontal borders.

If you are having your points doing all the work, you will have much more drift after awhile than if you do not, and are having them do as little of the work as possible.


Mr Bob

Bob,

What you are saying doesn't make any sense. Even adjusting a pinchusin type of adjustment makes changes to the registers for all points affected in the DCU. I just doesn't matter whether you do it one point at a time or mass correction. The DCU is still adjusting the points. The stress is the same.

Bill

I'm gonna have to agree with Bob on this one. While it may not be the case on Hitachi, it is generally the case on most sets that the fine adjustments have limited ranges. Therefore it is best to use the coarse adjustments first to adjust for screen positioning, overscan, and coarse geometry adjustments like pincunsion. Only then should you use the fine adjustments to perfect geometry.

Hitachis may be different as they don't display +/- register values for DCAM. However, in my experience some strange things happen to the grid when you try to adjust things use only the fine DCAM modes (I freaked out the first time the vertical DCAM grid suddenly curved drastically).

YMMV

I am aware that panasonic has quirks when it comes to convergence and geometry. But, you cannot apply a particular sets quirks to all sets. That would be like trying to apply the HermanTV maneuver to the 2002 hitachi to fix the grayscale hump. It ain't going to happen.

What I don't agree with is the concept that you stress the DCU by moving points finely. There may be limits, but I don't see how you are stressing the DCU. The only limits I have seen on the Hitachi occur when you have the size pots set incorrectly on the DCU. Outside of that, I haven't run into limit problems. Of course, I start with medium and work to fine. I will do coarse if I zero out convergence. I have done full geometry on at least 100 hitachis without problems.

Bill

I don't think DCU stress is necessarily the right term or that it even applies to the Hitachis.

I absolutely hate the analog size POTS on the Hitachi. Fully digital geometry/convergence system like Mits start to show convergence problems at the edges/corners when overscan is reduced to 4% or below. However, when you zero out the fine geometry and start from coarse, you can achieve between 3-4% and sometimes 2% on the Diamonds. This is what I believe Bob was referencing.

Unfortunately, less than 4% overscan on the Hitachi is really not achievable in my experience without some probelms at the edges/corners of the screen (not to mention Magic Focus not initializing).

Bob, what % overscan are you running on your Panny? I am at 3.5% on my Mits.

Bob,

You are correct. You cannot go very low on the horizontal overscan with the hitachi. That is why the template is spec'd to 5.5% on the sides. I actually have one that I created for 5% on the side. That is where the curving just begins on my 57".

Bill

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
Bob, what % overscan are you running on your Panny? I am at 3.5% on my Mits.


It's been awhile since I did it, but all RPTVs I calibrate are set to between 4-4.5%, referenced to AVIA. DVE seems to have roughly the same measurements, but I have not used DVE enough to really know. I'm sure I set mine the same.

You can go far lower in the ceiling mount FPTVs - like on a laptop, you can get the full circles on the AVIA circlehatch and then some.

Not so on the RPTVs. They are just not outfitted with enough memory for it. That's why we calibrators have discovered thru experience - doing them over and over and over again, brand after brand after brand - that 4-4.5% is best for RPTVs, factoring in the limitations and what happens whenever we try to go lower than that, like we can easily with the FPTV pjs.

RPTVs can be done down to AVIA's 3.5%, but at that point your side edges start to feather and blur quite noticeably. Even at 4%, some of my clients have complained about it, but I point out that that is the price of actually getting to see your lost areas of picture once overscan has been taken in to acceptable levels. I offer to redo it to restore the excessive overscan their unit started with, so they won't see that inescapable blurring, but nobody has taken me up on that. Once they have seen how much lost picture area I have successfully recaptured for them, turns out they are as happy as a lark after all, to let me leave it alone now...

On Mits's especially, you'll see that on many of the horizontal lines, on one side the red will go up while on the other side it will go down. I sometimes need to push both sides to their plus/minus 511 limits, just to get them to average out against each other.

Then the separations at the extremes are so intense that you have to sometimes go back and deconverge the next point in a bit, just to not have the extremes show quite as badly, what with the curl that happens at the extreme ends when you have maxed them out.

For my money, it is less distracting to just keep a 4% limit on Mits's, and not go below that.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by gambrelw
Bob,

What you are saying doesn't make any sense. Even adjusting a pinchusin type of adjustment makes changes to the registers for all points affected in the DCU. I just doesn't matter whether you do it one point at a time or mass correction. The DCU is still adjusting the points. The stress is the same.

Bill


Bill -

You know the Hitachis better than I do, so I may have to concur with you on this.

I have observed, tho, that the Hits don't have nearly as many selections per point as the Mits and Pios. The Mit has plus/minus 511 per point, per direction. That means 1022 selections per point horizontally, and the same vertically. That's over 2000 potential settings PER POINT.

The Hitachis, by comparison, have just a tiny fraction of that amount of selectivity, per point.

I know that the Hits don't have the Coarse settings that the Mits have, either. The Mits have the Coarse settings of side pincushion, keystone, width, etc, in each color, before you ever get to the points.

The Hits, on the other hand, like the Pannys, don't do it that way. They simply allow for more massive or less massive movement per point, depending on which level of movement you have ordered it to do - by hitting the appropriate button 5 times, setting it to the proper mode.

Hm...

So yes, I would have to concur with you on this, as far as the Hit's go. There are no coarse settings to save the stress on the points.

But wouldn't it be better to at least do the bigger movements with the more coarse point movement settings, than to do it all with the finer movement settings?

Or not? All the same either way? I guess if the DCU is ALL point settings anyway, it wouldn't make any difference...


Mr Bob

So, I hooked up my brand-spankin-new DVB318 to my also brand-new 57S500 and was very impressed. I hooked up DVI and Component (monster cable) and didn't see a difference. The DVD player is putting out 1080i - should i disable movie mode?

also, the main reason i am posting, is because I am noticing a bit of a grayish glow in the middle of the TV, towards the top of the screen when I turn the TV off...any ideas?

oh yea, and my cable box (SA3250HD) says that the hitachi isn't HDCP enabled...thought it was! - so i'm using component for both DVD and HDTV - anyone want a dvi cable? lol

Originally posted by phenolite
So, I hooked up my brand-spankin-new DVB318 to my also brand-new 57S500 and was very impressed. I hooked up DVI and Component (monster cable) and didn't see a difference. The DVD player is putting out 1080i - should i disable movie mode? Movie mode does not take effect with 1080i input (only 480i)...so it will make no difference. Most report the best performance from the 318 using component.

Originally posted by phenolite
oh yea, and my cable box (SA3250HD) says that the hitachi isn't HDCP enabled...thought it was! - so i'm using component for both DVD and HDTV - anyone want a dvi cable? lol I believe this is a problem with the cable box...check the HDTV Hardware Forum for more info.

will do, thanks alot Mark!

I have had my set for a couple of weeks now; was on vacation for several days.

After the first day or so my TV dimmed down quite a bit and now appears on the dark side, the picture is sharp; the black areas are too dark and appear to get lost in dark scenes.

When I got back from vacation and turned it on the TV was bright again but after about 1/2 hour it dimmed again. Using the contrast & brightness does make a difference but I don't want to set these well above 50.

Right now the Contrast is 35 and Brightness at 50; black enhancement is low and edge is off; color temp is medium; shart at 35.

Any thoughts? Those that had the dimming problem, did you get your issue corrected?

TURN BLACK ENHANCEMENT OFF PLEASE

Setup your controls using a test disc like AVIA or DVE