Dimming problem ? First I've heard of it. I'd make a call for service if you're outside the exchange window.

Originally posted by DWPerrone
I have had my set for a couple of weeks now; was on vacation for several days.

After the first day or so my TV dimmed down quite a bit and now appears on the dark side, the picture is sharp; the black areas are too dark and appear to get lost in dark scenes.

When I got back from vacation and turned it on the TV was bright again but after about 1/2 hour it dimmed again. Using the contrast & brightness does make a difference but I don't want to set these well above 50.

Right now the Contrast is 35 and Brightness at 50; black enhancement is low and edge is off; color temp is medium; shart at 35.

Any thoughts? Those that had the dimming problem, did you get your issue corrected?

Actually I think mine did this same thing after I got it....Now I have zero problems with it. I think it had something to do with the cable box doing it and not the actual set. Also I think it may have had to do with the black enhancement being on.....I no longer use that.

Mine woud dim, Then go back to normal, Then dim etc....Only after a couple of times it finally would stop at normal.

After about 5 months of having it I have had no problems.

Welp, I got tired of the halos around bright objects on dark backgrounds, and ordered some Duvetyne in hopes of reducing it.

Do you think it will do the trick, or are we dealing with lens flare internal to the CRTs?

Thanks,

Matt

PS - This thread has broken the 1000 post mark! :cool:

Duvetyne will help...but will not eliminate the problem.

Internal reflections occur with all RPTV displays (not just CRT).

Does anyone know where the X series CRT's are availble? I can't seem to find retailers anywhere. (I'm in the LA area, if that helps) Thanks!

Parker,

Thanks for the information; hopefully mine will self correct. The picture was bright and crisp with brightness @ 50 and Contrast at 30. After it dimmed, I needed to boost brightness up to 60 and contrast up to 35 to get the same bright level.

Hey guys.
I wanted to ask a question. I have a 57x500. I've basically done every kind of tweak possible to the TV including grayscale to the best of my knowledge. I was watching this week and I'm noticing my black levels are terrible. When watching tv, dark parts of scenes just seem to be black blotches. I've calibrated brightness with avia and ve but I get no detail in dark levels. I was watching a plasma in another place and I noticed how much better the black level was on that tv compared to mine. I was wondering whether grayscale has an effect on black levels while watching. Maybe I incorrectly set black level and this is causing the bad blacks. If that's not the case would any body know how to improve the black levels?

Thanks in advance,
Victor

Originally posted by bigrig
Welp, I got tired of the halos around bright objects on dark backgrounds, and ordered some Duvetyne in hopes of reducing it.

Do you think it will do the trick, or are we dealing with lens flare internal to the CRTs?

Thanks,

Matt

PS - This thread has broken the 1000 post mark! :cool:


How old is your unit?

CRT RPTVs need a clean, clear optical path, at every point along that path. There are many surfaces involved, and the only ones impervious to the high voltage trashing them with dust - turning everything around into powerful dust magnets - are mylar plastic mirrors and the sealed internal lenses in the lens barrel stack. Everything else along the light path - including the front surface glass mirrors used in Hitachis - will become coated with dust, soot and smoke over time, gradually but inexorably impeding crystal clear viewing.

It looks like the giant squid has let out his ink, when the optics are dirty. There is a hazy glow around bright objects, and when there is a doughnut hole of bright material surrounding a dark center, virtually no details are visible in the dark areas.

Professional grade optics cleaning is the only answer. I recommend that this be done every year without fail, and that the deeper optics - beneath the lenses, at the CRT coolant covers - be done whenever necessary.

You can see a writeup on this at my website.


Mr Bob

Call 1-800-hitachi for retailers list for the 57x500. Blacks or black crush ...search on hitachi gamma , the statg10 settings in service flex mode. Halos and internal reflections can be lessened with proper contrast/brightness/greyscale but not eliminated entirely. Gamma correction can help here as well. Auto black level must be off.

Bob, my unit is about 6 months old, I think this issue has been present from the beginning. Thanks for your advice.

Paul, thanks for the tip about the gamma setting, I'll give that a shot.

Matt

2weeks with my 57S500 - no regrets - great set

i do notice a bit of a gray/whitish glow in the center of the tv, a bit towards the top when the tv is off, and when there is some light to moderate ambient light. I am not sure if this is normal, or if it is just reflection from light/inside of tv...thoughts?

I see the same grey when the set is off. it's just external light going into the set and bouncing around... Not a big deal..

alrighty - i figured

thanks for the insight - i'll stop freakin out about it and staring at it =P

Yeah, we have had to pay attention to invading light when using color analyzers for grayscale. Any light hitting the screen from the outside will go in, bounce around, and come out again. With color analyzer pods, this external light will affect the readings. That's one reason why grayscales need to be done under very low lighting conditions.

If you want to try something, get it completely dark in your viewing area - like all lights off late at night - and with TV OFF press a flashlight onto your screen, from the front - almost touching it but not touching it enough to scratch it.

Watch what it does inside your cabinet, then watch what it does as you move it around. You'll see internal reflections blazing away, all over the place in there.


I can't take credit for this - I got this trick from Guy Kuo, when he was recommending adding an extra layer of transparent darkening material to the inner surface, to help with the black levels.

Unfortunately this also decreases your overall light output, and I was not willing to sacrifice any of that.


Mr Bob

oooh, sounds like Mr. Wizard type stuff

thanks Bob! :D

My hero!

Along with McGyver, Desmond Llewellen (Q), the slick black guy on the old Mission Impossible series (Barney?), and of course Scotty...

:D

Picture on my 57S500 still seems a little dark; I have bright set to 60 and contrast to 40; any other recommendations, I only have about 40 hours usage.

Also I have a Denon Audio system I am going to hook up. Should I hook all video through the Receiver.

I am thinking of getting D* in addition to my HD Cable. I'm thinking I can put up with the cost of both for a year and I can get benefits of both until one or the other gets a comprehensive set of HD channels. With D* I get ESPN HD, Discovery HD, and NFL ST, with Adelphia I get the locals (I'm too far away from city and don't want an outside roof antenna. Anyone else doing this with their Hitachi?

Paul clancy thanks for the reply. My brightness is set at about 28 right now and contrast at 28. These are the ideal settings for my tv via Avia and VE. The statg10 setting I'll give a shot later on today to see what it does. I just thought that one of the strong points of a crt was its black resolution and mine doesn't seem to have that. The tv is aobut 6 months old. I'm thinking the greyscale is what is causing the black crush but to my eyes the grayscale looks perfect through VE. It looks like a constant grey all the way up to 100 ire no extra red or green. I don't know. I didn't understand why you wanted me to call 1800 hitachi though. To get ideas from dealers? Those guys are aboout as clueless as anybody.

If anybody else had some thoughts I'd appreciate it.

Victor

Originally posted by Vidcan
[B]Paul clancy thanks for the reply. My brightness is set at about 28 right now and contrast at 28. These are the ideal settings for my tv via Avia and VE.


You may not have your brightness setting correct. I don't use AVIA for brightness setting, but VE's directives re. the standard pluge pattern are meant for much more expensive ceiling pjs, with much better black retention than most RPTVs are capable of.

The correct way to do it is to factor in the presence of the possibility of high light levels by going one pattern past the standard pluge pattern - where there is an allwhite piece filling up the entire right side instead of the boxes, with the stripes still where they were, on the left. On various brands of RPTV, these 2 patterns will make the stripes respond very differently, because of the presence of the high white level on one pattern but not the other.

When the high white presence makes you need to turn up the brightness to still be able to just barely make out the left 2 stripes of the 3 on the second pattern, you know you have to go with that setting instead, even tho when you backstep that one frame again to the original standard pluge pattern, it makes the standard pattern appear too light, and filled in. Where the second pattern says to put it, is where it needs to go.

This one came directly from ISF's Jim Doolittle, when we were chatting about such things at CES last year.

I have seen MANY RPTVs set way too low by using the directives on VE. This additional step MUST be performed, for you to be getting the brightness settings intended from VE's brightness patterns, on Hitachi RPTVs.



I'm thinking the greyscale is what is causing the black crush but to my eyes the grayscale looks perfect through VE. It looks like a constant grey all the way up to 100 ire no extra red or green.

Grayscale and brightness interact with each other, but one is not the other. Your grayscale can be dead on, but you could still be having problems with your brightness settings. One will not CAUSE problems with the other.

Your set's grayscale sounds emminently within acceptable parameters, and I don't believe it has anything to do with your problem.

I think your brightness settings are simply too low.


Mr Bob

Vidcan,
Brightness is set low at 28. Try around 50 and tweak from there. Yes room light will affect this as will dark program material so use of the day/night mode to compensate for either condition. This is one of the hitachi bonuses. Keeping black at black is difficult with any rptv. If you adjust your gamma setting you'll need to reset brightness but it should raise your detail in blacks. The difficult thing with brightness is different sources and program material will have quite different levels....all the way from washed looking to crushed blacks lacking detail and all points between. Remember the gamma setting is universal while the brightness is input specific so try not to adjust gamma just for 1 dark source or program/dvd or you'll find normal programming too washed out. As with any change in service mode RIGHT DOWN the factory setting before you change it.

One thing I've noticed since I've been watching HD Movies the past few days is that brigtness is OK on HD; still a bit dark on SD. However, I had the "pop" and turn off happen twice yesterday and the brigtness overall looks a little better.

In "surfing" around while trying to determine what looks good and what needs help, I've noticed that things that are white that are moving, e.g. sports teams players, golf balls, etc... appear particularly out of focus. Is this the "White blooming" I've seen referred too? My contrast is 35; brightness @ 55. Less than 50 total hours on TV so far.

Has anyone else had an issue with the Black Side panels on the 57" S5/700?
I set Black side panels to ON, and some channels are gray, some darker gray, and some are black (NBC/ABC/HDH- DTV).
I have checked and reset to black each time to no avail, I have also tried the internal tuner ( S700) which does the same thing as the cable box.

I can't stand the gray, so any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

m

Originally posted by Paul Clancy
Vidcan,
Brightness is set low at 28. Try around 50 and tweak from there. Yes room light will affect this as will dark program material so use of the day/night mode to compensate for either condition. This is one of the hitachi bonuses. Keeping black at black is difficult with any rptv. If you adjust your gamma setting you'll need to reset brightness but it should raise your detail in blacks. The difficult thing with brightness is different sources and program material will have quite different levels....all the way from washed looking to crushed blacks lacking detail and all points between. Remember the gamma setting is universal while the brightness is input specific so try not to adjust gamma just for 1 dark source or program/dvd or you'll find normal programming too washed out.


Yes. Very well put, Paul.

Gamma is a brightness curve, and a very linear straight-line 45 degree upward angle/slope is usually perfect. I once saw a very advanced DVDP which actually had that curve as changeable per disc played, and I found a straight upward slope of 45 degrees was optimal on that unit also - going from dark to bright, and everywhere in between. Changing the shape of the curve served no useful purpose that I could see.

I used the dark dragon's lair scenes from Shrek as my sample material, tho you can find test patterns to use for this purpose if you wish, also.


I have never had to change it/the gamma from factory settings on a Hit, nor basically on any calibration that I can readily remember, of any brand. Making sure the internal brightness is set optimally usually does the trick, while maintaining the factory gamma preset intact. And leaving "wiggle room" for different brightness levels per different source materials, some higher and some lower.

For instance, my HD settings are ideal for most HD program material, calibrated by my Accupel's test patterns, and I rarely need to change them. But I don't use the calibrated settings for HD on Leno every weeknight, that I use for virtually everything else on HD. On The Tonight Show I always run the color 5 clicks up, and the brightness 5 clicks down, from nullpoint/midpoint of 31 on my 65" Panny - of a total user value of 63 clicks max, in both cases.

For Super Bowl last year, I ran the color setting 10 clicks higher for the second half of the game than for the first half, where the sunshine drenched everything and in the second half we were under the stark stadium lights instead.

Work with your brightness settings. I have never seen a factory set Hit so out of whack that you had to reduce it to almost half of midpoint value to get it to work right.



As with any change in service mode RIGHT DOWN the factory setting before you change it.


I think Paul meant "WRITE DOWN". And yes, I couldn't agree more, on that one! I always ask my clients to take dictation and we whip them down onto paper upon first going in to service mode, just to get all of that out of the way up front.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by DWPerrone

In "surfing" around while trying to determine what looks good and what needs help, I've noticed that things that are white that are moving, e.g. sports teams players, golf balls, etc... appear particularly out of focus. Is this the "White blooming" I've seen referred too? My contrast is 35; brightness @ 55. Less than 50 total hours on TV so far.


Yes, that sounds like blooming. Try turning down your contrast some more and see if that phenom doesn't go away. Contrast setting at 35 certainly doesn't sound too high, in User. Your internal subcontrast setting may be set too high in service mode. Playing with it in User mode will most likely solve your problem, even if you come up with a user setting that on the face of it looks too low.

Whenever you change your contrast, you may have to readjust your brightness setting to compensate. They are always interactive with each other, and a critical balance always has to be struck, between them.

If this makes the overall light level too low, try controlling your room lighting more - taking it down some more. This may be challenging in the daytime in your particular viewing environment, which with sporting events may be why you are seeing this happening in the first place. Skylights are particularly difficult to control in the daytime.

You may have to live with it one way or the other - contrast lowered for anti-blooming on bright pieces/sections of video material, or contrast not lowered for nice, bright overall viewing. You may not get to have both.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by Mr Bob
Gamma is a brightness curve, and a very linear straight-line 45 degree upward angle/slope is usually perfect. I once saw a very advanced DVDP which actually had that curve as changeable per disc played, and I found a straight upward slope of 45 degrees was optimal on that unit also - going from dark to bright, and everywhere in between. Changing the shape of the curve served no useful purpose that I could see. I will have to disagree here. A linear straight-line 45 degree gamma curve is certainly not desirable. An upward curving slope between 2.2 and 2.4 is desirable.

http://www.srgb.com/hpsrgbprof/sld003.htm

The reason being is that just as programming is produced with a D6500 grayscale standard, it is also produced with the Gamma curve in mind. That is one of the problems with Digital displays like LCD and DLP. They naturally have a 45 degree gamma curve and must try to mimic a 2.2/2.4 curve. This is one of the reasons these technologies have poor shadow detail (in addition to poor black levels).

Do a google search on gamma curve for tons of info if you are interested (there have also been many threads here on AVS in the past, but I'm not sure if they will come up in the search since they were a while ago).

I agree with Marc. A linear grayscale will wash out the picture. A high gamma will create black crush.

Brightness is set low at 28. Try around 50 and tweak from there.

Brightness setting has many factors controlling it, therefore, a set value for one set will not work on another. Three primary factors are G2 voltage, Sub bright control and service menu CUTS. Black level is more variable than contrast setting. You should use the pluge to set black level. If gamma is incorrect, you should correct gamma or compensate via other means.

Bill

thank you all for your help.

I adjusted stgta10 to 6. It did help some with the black crush. The 5 setting seems to be almost the same as the factory setting of 00. As for the brightness the user menu setting of 28-30 is ideal for my tv because of the way my grayscale is set. I could go down on the DRVs and CUTs and then raise the usermenu brightness but I think it's the same thing. I set the user menu brightness to 50 and pulled up the VE black pluge and set the brightness via the SM. Is the stgta10 setting the only setting to adjust gamma on the Hit? I still have black crush. Playing the 5th element you cant make out people's clothing when it's a dark color like navy or black. They just look like black splotches. On SD news casts for example people with dark suits just cant be made out. Raising the brightness more, I can make out the details but then the black is glowing. Too bright. I will do a search for gamma on the forum and see what else I come up with. What is the G2 voltage by the way Bill? The overscan pot adjustments? I've already calibrated those to spec. Your convergence grid was a huge help by the way, thanks.

Victor

I adjusted stgta10 to 6. It did help some with the black crush. The 5 setting seems to be almost the same as the factory setting of 00. As for the brightness the user menu setting of 28-30 is ideal for my tv because of the way my grayscale is set. I could go down on the DRVs and CUTs and then raise the usermenu brightness but I think it's the same thing. I set the user menu brightness to 50 and pulled up the VE black pluge and set the brightness via the SM. Is the stgta10 setting the only setting to adjust gamma on the Hit? I still have black crush. Playing the 5th element you cant make out people's clothing when it's a dark color like navy or black. They just look like black splotches. On SD news casts for example people with dark suits just cant be made out. Raising the brightness more, I can make out the details but then the black is glowing. Too bright. I will do a search for gamma on the forum and see what else I come up with. What is the G2 voltage by the way Bill? The overscan pot adjustments? I've already calibrated those to spec. Your convergence grid was a huge help by the way, thanks.

I don't recommend altering the cuts just so you can increase the brightness. The luminance change for each color for cut is not the same during adjustment. So, increasing blue cut by 3 is not the same a increasing green cut by 3. You are correct that brightness and cuts are the same. Cuts are just for individual colors.

STATG10 isn't the only gamma adjustment, but it does have the most affect. You can alter STATG20, which has more of an affect on the upper portion of the gamma curve.

As far as not seeing all the details, that could be external factors (shoot lighting, camera, DVD authoring, etc). Did the director mean for you to see every crease. Not always. I wouldn't worry if you can't see every little thing. If you have set STATG10 to 06 or 07 and set brightness with the pluge, you have hit the ideal gamma and black level. Also, the hitachi gamma curve doesn't follow a perfect curve (most displays don't). I find that 20IRE is a little low and 50IRE is a little high. The average will put you between 2.2 and 2.4. You will need an external device with point gamma control to fix it.

G2 voltage is the physical way of adjusting CUTs. Those are the screen VR knobs above the focus knobs on the Focus block. There is a proper way to set them, but they vary from set to set based on the person in the factory adjusting them.

The overscan or size pots are the pots on the DCU that affect horizontal or vertical size. It is dangerous to play with those. I am aware of cases were random adjustment has damaged the DCU.

Bill

I was able to achieve a near perfect gamma curve (between 2.2 and 2.5) on my 43FWX20b by adjusting both STATG10 and STATG20. I had planned to do the same on a 57S500 before posting the results. I will try to do so soon complete with the resultant curves. (I can post the FWX curves if you'd like as a teaser).

Marc Alexander
Whay if any changes did you find the STATG20 option have on the gamma.
What setting did you leave it at by the way?
One more question. Does a grayscale ISF calibration include gamma adjustment or is that a separate option. Would you guys recommend somebody in the Southern California area that could set my grayscale and gamma correctly.

Victor

Victor,

I would say that gamma for the most part isn't touched by many calibrators (just white and black). I know a lot of calibrators that don't even know what it means, much less know how to calibrate it. There are a lot of displays that don't even have gamma controls and you have to compensate for the poor curve.

What part of Southern CA? I visit LA a lot.

Bill

STATG20 affects the upper IRE range of gamma, STATG10 the lower. I don't have the details here on this computer. I'll have to post those details tonight or tomorrow.

In all honesty, many PROs/ISFs do not understand Gamma and most don't consider it when calibrating. Bill G is the only Hitachi guy I know that knows Gamma. Maybe he knows some guys. Remember, ISF training does not make somebody a product specific expert (there is hardly any product specific training in the ISF training). For example, CraigM may be the best Mits guy out there and I don't think he has ever attended an ISF event.

If you can't find anybody locally, I will be in Southern Cali (Riverside) during the holidays. We could possibly arrange something then.

Originally posted by Marc Alexander
I will have to disagree here. A linear straight-line 45 degree gamma curve is certainly not desirable. An upward curving slope between 2.2 and 2.4 is desirable.

http://www.srgb.com/hpsrgbprof/sld003.htm




Thanks for bringing me up to speed. I stand gratefully corrected.

;)

Mr Bob

Originally posted by Vidcan
Marc Alexander

Would you guys recommend somebody in the Southern California area that could set my grayscale and gamma correctly.

Victor


I am just leaving via LAX on an 11:55am flight, here on Tuesday morning. If you would like to have me extend my stay and do some work for you, contact me immediately. PM me or call my number in my signature and leave contact info, as I will be checking my landline messages. I'll give you my cellphone number.

I am packing as we speak, tho, so this may not work...


Mr Bob

Originally posted by Mr Bob
Thanks for bringing me up to speed. I stand gratefully corrected.

;)

Mr Bob


Actually, as I think about it, that DVDP's adjustable gamma curve WAS curved rather than straight. Didn't notice at the time.

The options were to take defined sections of that curve and manipulate them. But the sections were set in stone, and you could only manipulate defined parts of the curve, in those particlular sections of the curve. You couldn't make the curve go back and forth as the light level of the graph increased, for instance - you could only make parts of it steeper, within other, greater parts of it.

Sony takes the cake on gamma. They actually allow changing of the gamma curve PER COLOR, rather than just on the overall brightness scale.


How often does one really need to manipulate a gamma curve, tho?

After my calibrations, it has never been raised as an issue by any of my clients, that I can remember. I studied it a long time ago with Paul Carleton - many years ago - on the x5 series, the year after the original-issue Mits x3 HDready series - using the AVIA gamma curve test pattern, where 2.2-2.4 was specified.

But after thorough professional-grade optics cleaning and high precision brightness setting within the service menu, using several types of regular starfield video material from Starship Troopers - my main brightness setting test material for many years - it has never been such an issue that it has been called to my attention, after calibration. Detail in dark areas has been splendiforous, pretty much every time, once calibration is completed. So I guess I just forgot about it.

Is it really an issue with the Hitachis? If so, I am all ears.


Mr Bob

How often does one really need to manipulate a gamma curve, tho?

There are a lot of sets out there with poor gamma that need correction. If you have calibrated any 2002/2003 hitachi without correcting gamma (perfect white and black), then your gamma will hover around 3.0. Many people complain the picture is too dark with proper black level set. You either have to set black level high or white level high to see the missed detail with you would get with a 2.2 gamma. Gamma is important, but often overlooked. Why only calibrate two points for luminance on the scale? There are 98 more to think about.

The XXX82 toshibas have a bad gamma. The Mits 613 has a higher than desired gamma with a dip below 20IRE. I can't name all the displays with poor gamma out of box. The AVIA test pattern is not a good reference. You have to use the calibration software to get a good assesment.

Bill

BTW, It is the DENON DVD players that allow full manipulation of the GAMMA curve. Others simply have Gamma presets.

BTW, It is the DENON DVD players that allow full manipulation of the GAMMA curve. Others simply have Gamma presets.

Yes they do, along with the Lumagen Video processors. I have both.

Bill

Originally posted by gambrelw
The AVIA test pattern is not a good reference. You have to use the calibration software to get a good assesment.

Bill


How do you do that? Use the 10 and 20 with the correct gamma pattern? If not Avia's, then what pattern do you use? Is there a link you can send me to, to bone up on it?


Yes, I was most impressed with what could be done with that Denon. Its adjustable graph was very comprehensive.


Mr Bob

Use the grayscale wizard of your colorfacts. It will measure in 11 points for grayscale and luminance. The luminance histogram will give you the gamma. Make sure you select best fit in properties.

Set black and white correctly before you measure to get the true gamma of the display.

Bill

Guys...I haven't forgot about the FWX Gamma graphs (from Sencore). I just spent all last night playing with my new LG HDTV DVR. I will do my best to post the graphs tonight so you can clearly see the effects of STATG10 and STATG20.

I may be able to access a S500 this weekend to see if the final results mimic the FWX (the factory defaults were different I believe). More to come...

Originally posted by gambrelw
Use the grayscale wizard of your colorfacts. It will measure in 11 points for grayscale and luminance. The luminance histogram will give you the gamma. Make sure you select best fit in properties.

Set black and white correctly before you measure to get the true gamma of the display.

Bill

Thanks, Bill. Will implement when I play with my Colorfacts next.


Mr Bob

Hi all!

I've been meaning to ask this question for a while, and excuse me for asking something that's been asked a million times. I'm the owner of a 57s500, and I'm very happy with it. There's one thing that is bothering me however.

It seems that white is "leaking" for lack of a better word. I don't believe it's contrast, and it only appears to happen on words. For example, credits, or tickers, etc. Many times, the right edges of the letters "leaK' or bleed forming spikey artifacts. I can't say this happens in HD mode or on DVDs (never noticed, but it's possible). I mostly watch regular cable on the set so that's where I've really noticed it. My connection is COX HD from a Motorola 6200 Box, into a TiVo (via COAX) and then S-Video into the TV. HD would be component out to the TV and DVD is component as well.

Hopefully I explained the situation well enough. I really haven't played around with the TV except a little AVIA about 2 months ago, and I just completed my second manual convergence. The set is about 6 months old now.

Thanks in advance
KARL

Where is your contrast set? Sounds like it is too high.

This is what happens when a set is overdriven, either on contrast or on color intensity. It gets worse with age, and weak filament temperature can also cause it.

One cure is rejuvenation of the CRTs, which burns off the corrosion and other contaminants that can gather on the metal surfaces after years and years of use.

Another is removing the buffering resistor on the way to the filaments, causing them to burn hotter. This is usually only done when a unit is very very old, and needs this to make the filaments burn as strongly as they were when they were new.


Mr Bob

I put my 51s500 against a DLP and he got mad..............Shame I think and he got mad about the detail and was willing to trade me.............A Samsung 50". Think I should go ahead and trade?

Originally posted by Mr Bob
Where is your contrast set? Sounds like it is too high.

This is what happens when a set is overdriven, either on contrast or on color intensity. It gets worse with age, and weak filament temperature can also cause it.

...

Mr Bob

Well, the settings I found to be best under AVIA were:

Contrast 23%
Brightness 45%
Color 48%
Tint is one step to the right
Color Temp is standard
Black Enhancement is off
Edge Enhancement is middle

I thought color might be a little high, but again, using the filters in AVIA that's the best setting.

Thanks for your help...
KARL

Here are the graphs which show the effects of STATG10 on my 43FWX20b. STATG10 and STATG20 are interactive and I had to adjust both to get a smooth gamma curve to my liking.

edit: this is with STATG20 = 0 which is the default for this model. STATG20 default = 3 on the S500.

Here are the results after playing with STATG10 and STATG20

STATG10 = 5
STATG20 = 3

(I did have to bump contast up a few ticks after adjusting STATG20 after I noticed the overall light output decreased)

I will be tweaking a 57S500 in a few weeks and will post the results.

Marc,

It looks like your gamma curve is what I usually see. 10 and 20IRE are a little low on luminance and 50IRE is a little high relative to the ideal curve for 2.29 in your case. It can't be corrected without a point correction system via an external source. Hitachi is much better than most displays after you set gamma via the service menu.

Bill

What optical instrument do you use to set the gamma? I have access to a Minolta LS110 light meter from work, so I presume that will help me calibrate my set after I buy it (except for the color).

Apparently no one here is having the problem with Black side panels that are grey (even when set to black/on) as I am.
Does ANYONE know what in the service menu controls the black side panels? I am going crazy trying to watch the Sox game on channel 4 ( DTV) while having to do 16x9 zoom ( loss of quality) to make up for the GREY side bars ( even though black is set to on in the user menu).
I haven't changed hardly anything in the service menu, except common things folks do here to rid themselves of the pitiful blue hue (which I honestly think is outright ridiculous).
So again does anyone know what in the service menu controls the black side panels, user menu and manual are useless, I have tried s-video, integrated tuner, Tuner A,B, and component(cable box- 6200) with absolutely no change at all.

Anyone that has ANY IDEA what this could be, would be helping me out immensely, and will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

m

Marc is using the Sencore CP-5000. I use the Milori CF-6000 (spectroradiometer) and CF-6000 (tristimulus). The software needs to be able to calibate gamma in order for the meter to be affective.

muzz, The service menu parameter for the bars luminance is FRMBRT0.

Bill

Originally posted by gambrelw

muzz, The service menu parameter for the bars luminance is FRMBRT0.

Bill

TYVM Bill

m

Well that didn't help any in my circumstance unfortunately.....
I had to dig to find it, as it is not in the isf menu.
I still appreciate the info bill.

m

It is in the flex menu. I should have mentioned that. If the bars are from an STB, this parameter won't do you any good. This is only good for the built in bars.

Bill

Bill I think thats where I found it, NP.

As I stated it doesn't matter whether I use the stb, or the integrated tuner the bars are still grey...
The funny thing is channel 4 ( DTV) is light grey, channel 5 ( DTV) is mid grey, and channel 7 (DTV) is black....

I have no clue what the deal is, I have tried EVERY input( all RF, and svideo/components) and the results do NOT change AT ALL....
The grey bars drive me crazy ( 16x9 zoom makes me almost as nuts), I would be pretty sure that something is set wrong somewhere, I just cant find it..

Thanks for your input.

m

Yup,

If you are refering to 4x3 material on an HD channel, then there is nothing you can do. The bars are actually part of the frame they send. You have no control over them.

Bill

Have you personally seen 4x3 on a DTV channel?
If so were the side panels black or grey?

EDIT- 6:05 pm EST: Why would you NOT be able to change the TV side panels from grey to black, shouldn't that be user selectable?

I mean these ARE DTV channels, and the video DOES look better than the SD channel counterparts ( although IMO NOT as good as they should).

BTW In the Virtual HD(on these channels) I can NOT change from 1080I, and I ONLY have the 16x9 or 16x9 Zoom modes....

Thanks

m

I would think that the reason I cannot select 540 is because it is sent in 720 or higher....
Not that it would really matter much.....

Have you personally seen 4x3 on a DTV channel?
If so were the side panels black or grey?

Yes, I have seen them and the luminance depends on where you live. CBS in one city may be black and CBS in another city may be gray.


Why would you NOT be able to change the TV side panels from grey to black, shouldn't that be user selectable?

Because they are controlled by the station, not the TV. All they are doing is adding black or gray pixels to the 4x3 material to create a 16x9 frame.

BTW In the Virtual HD(on these channels) I can NOT change from 1080I, and I ONLY have the 16x9 or 16x9 Zoom modes....

You are locked. If you input 540p, it will output 540p. If you input 1080i, it will output 1080i. You have no choice. The funny thing is that it will say 1080i with a 540p input, but it is still 540p out. I have not tested 720p to see if they output 540p or 1080i. It would actually be easier to output to 540p.

Bill

Thanks Bill, I appreciate your input regarding my issues..
I am VERY surprised I have NOT read about folks having this issue ( I did searches here and elsewhere with no luck).....

It is very surprising that I am not able to set black side panels, and even more surprising that I have seen NOONE complain about this issue ( even on other sets)...

I cannot watch these supposed DTV channels because of this IDIOCY, as the grey side panels are just too distracting, and I feel I should not have to make the black bars with cloth or some gardbage of that nature.

Heres to hoping that they finally get their s*** together and do the right thing....

Thanks again Bill, I really appreciate your input here, as I was digging for info everywhere, and checking all kinds of stuff in ISF figuring something had to be wrong.

m

By the way, I just did another check on outputs.

540p input will only output 540p
1080i input will only output 1080i
720p input can be toggled to 540p or 1080i.

Bill

Hmmmmm the last one ( 720- can be toggeld) is kind of odd, I have NOT checked this, I just kind of figured it could NOT be DOWN converted..

I will check to make sure my 700 can by using the info button per input res...
I somehow have a hard time believing the input of channel 4 was true HD (and I was stuck at 1080I), as while the pic was ok it was NOT world class by any means( Dvds look better), not matter which input I used ( int. tuner/ cable box etc...).

Thanks,

m

In most cases, the material on local stations aren't true HD. It is scaled with bars added to the sides or stretched in the case of WB. There are a handful of programs on each station that are true HD. They are typically the prime time shows and sporting events.

Bill

I'll tell ya what..

I have seen SOME SD material look better than some LABELED HD( thats pathetic), especially since you(I) have to zoom ( which is obviously NOT the same as stretch) because of the gray bars.......
Thats downright pathetic IMO.

My TV looks great with a VG SD signal, but crappy with a crappy one
(expected).......

Sad day when something in SUPPOSED HD is WORSE overall ( conditions) than an VG SD signal.....

IMO I have a very good display, and when it says DTV ( or HD) it should look mint...
It doesn't always unfortunately.

Muzz,
Are you assuming the DTV is the same as HDTV??? I can assure they are not. DTV simply refers to digital transmission of the TV signal this does not always mean it's going to be HD quality. I have been watching DTV channels here is Chicago and the black bars are a part of the picture that can not be removed. But they do show up black not grey like you are experiencing.

Originally posted by kirky99


I thought color might be a little high, but again, using the filters in AVIA that's the best setting.





What does your AVIA color decoder pattern tell you, and when implementing it are you using true color isolation, or filters? When using filters, which are only approximate, you can be up to 5-10% off, PER COLOR, from what it would read under total color isolation conditions, which is the true test.

Is it showing true linearity, or red push? Or some other kind of push?


If your decoder is not linear, you cannot trust the color bars blue isolation test on anybody's disc - AVIA, VE or DVE - for setting color and tint. You pretty much have to do it by eye. Under such conditions, I use Caucasian fleshtones to set it, and let the rest of the colors fall where they will.

The one thing you can't fudge on is the fleshtones. Everything else has to take secondary status - meaning that if you have red push, your greens and blues will wind up looking a bit wilted and washed out when your fleshtones are looking correct. It's either that or have your fleshtones be overaccentuated - like sunburned or ruddy-looking - if you want your greens and blues to look right.

With red push you can't have it both ways. With a fully aligned color decoder, on the other hand, your fleshtones will look great while your greens and blues will be fully vivid, as they were when they were filmed.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by cmslick3
Muzz,
Are you assuming the DTV is the same as HDTV??? I can assure they are not. DTV simply refers to digital transmission of the TV signal this does not always mean it's going to be HD quality. I have been watching DTV channels here is Chicago and the black bars are a part of the picture that can not be removed. But they do show up black not grey like you are experiencing.


Yes. On the newest versions of some brands, they actually have SOME limited things they can do with 1080i scaling now, but most still lock up whatever is arriving in 1080i at fullscreen 16x9. One of my pet peeves is commercials on HD OTA channels, and how that impacts screenburn on 16x9 HDreadys.

OTA true HD sends out their commercials in 4x3, meaning that every time the commercial is up there you will have unchangeable blackbars at the sides. If you are a newbie and are running your contrast up full, I believe you are risking screenburn. (Others would call that a crock, and say I am overworrying and that there is no way occasional commercials will cause screenburn. Unfortunately but luckily enough, I have not been privvy to how long it actually takes to achieve screenburn, on ANYBODY'S display device. Yet I have seen heartsinking examples of it out there in the field. I don't want to even start to take that chance, with MY display device!)

To avoid that, I use my RPTV's internal tuner to kick my Panny into the NTSC version of the OTA show at every commercial, where I can designate that it show up zoomed and with contrast and brightness totally minimized, giving me just a very dim, glowing picture, which totally fills the screen. I can still watch it to see when the commercial ends, and the sound can stay independent of such changes if I want it to - since the sound is digital audio thru my external amp, for full 5.1 surround, which is not changed by the TV in my system.

When the commercial is over I kick it back, where the contrast and brightness are already set to their optimum for HD, and instantly I am back into the thick of it, again watching the show in true HD.

Each of my scanrates retains where I have set its user controls during input switching. Not each of my inputs, unfortunately. On other brands it will be different - each actual input will retain its own user settings on some brands, like the Mits's. On mine it's the scanrate that determines that, rather than the actual input. Which in this case, of course, makes no difference anyway - I just set each scanrate once and leave them alone later, as I switch them. Which should be pretty much universally true on all brands of RPTV, for this little trick.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by cmslick3
Muzz,
Are you assuming the DTV is the same as HDTV??? I can assure they are not. DTV simply refers to digital transmission of the TV signal this does not always mean it's going to be HD quality. I have been watching DTV channels here is Chicago and the black bars are a part of the picture that can not be removed. But they do show up black not grey like you are experiencing.

No I am not assuming that at all.
Yes I am aware of the black bar issue, my problem is mine aren't even black ( some are some aren't).

MMM is it possible for you to check with other people in your area who may have a DTV receiver of some kind. Perhaps the stations are sending the sides bars as gray anyway.. I am sure they are doing it to try and even the wear on TV's but I'm not sure most people, like yourself, like that.

Like I said I have even tried the integrated tuner (bypassing the cable box), and the results are the same unfortunately....

Originally posted by Mr Bob
You'll need all of the above if you change the sizing any, by way of taking in the overscan. Doing so will mess up the geometry and convergence, which will all have to be redone.

If you just want to recenter and leave sizing alone, you can get away with just the H and V positioning registers in the SM. Door #2. If you then - or at any time - want to tighten up the convergence, you'll need Door #3.

Stay away from Door #1 - the H and V pots/overscan pots - unless you are ready for the full meal deal. If you are ready and then play with them, remember that setting them too tightly, such that there is not ENOUGH overscan - will make it so that your magic focus perimeter sensors will not be properly bombarded with the differing colored lights sent out to them from the auto program for MF, during the MF initialization process. Nor will the sensors receive the proper info during a normal MF alignment, in User/viewer mode.

A certain amount of overscan beyond what is visible on the screen is necessary for proper operation of the MF.


AND STAY AWAY FROM THE 3X3. On the Mits and Tosh's it is the Reset - E2 reset on the Mits's, and QA02 reset on the Tosh's. On the Philips/Marantz's stay away from anything that says Default.

On the Hitachi's, you will instantly vaporize all the factory's convergence work if you follow the protocol that activates the 3x3. You don't need to do that. Unless your coarse registers on the Mit are way off, or the points on any of these brands - including Mit - are way off center, working with convergence and geometry already close is much preferable to starting completely over.


Mr Bob

My picture has shifted to the right about 1". Did the response above refer to this issue? If so, what is door #1, #2 etc...? If this response does not deal with this shifting, any suggestions?

muzz,
I can't tell from the reading the Hitachi website whether this applies to your set. However, some of their models deliberately make the black bars gray in order to reduce screenburn. This feature can apparently be turned off in some menu or other

Check out this link out...it represents the sum total of my knowledge on this and I can only hope it applies to your problem since they don't specify which models it applies to:

http://www.hitachi.us/tv/discover/techadv/tech_ad_proj09.shtml

Go down to and play the quicktime movie entitle "Screen Modes for widescreen 16:9 TVs". Hope that helps.

Also, there is a specification somewhere on the Hitachi site stating that black bar modes should be restricted to less than 15% of the total viewing time so apparently they are taking screenburn very seriously.

Originally posted by The_smokester
Also, there is a specification somewhere on the Hitachi site stating that black bar modes should be restricted to less than 15% of the total viewing time so apparently they are taking screenburn very seriously.
The 15% part is in the manual to the TV.

Thanks Stereodude.

muzz,
I just downloaded the S700/S715 manual and it's all there. Page 68. Probably that's what's happening. You've been Hitachi'd.

I've been having a probably for a while now with my s500, and i've finally decided to ask about it.
Along the left edge of the screen the picture is compressed. It's as if the picture is a sheet of paper, and the last 2 inches or so along the left edge are curled. It's not a big problem, but when I see patterns or the camera pans along, I notice objects go into that range and scrunch up a little. I may be getting some actual HDTV soon and that may make it look a littlre more apparent.
Anyone know what might be causing this?

The way the sd side bars work in the s500/700 is you can change the setting in the user menu to black and it will be black, but when you power off and back on it reverts to grey. This is by design ...grey has less burn in risk. If you're seeing grey bars in hd programming (commercials or 4:3 upconverted programs on hd channels)it IS in the signal and the bars are put in by the station ...some use grey sometimes ..black othertimes....some stations only black. Not really a big deal to most of us which is why you haven't heard any rants about it.

My first post here, must say seems like a great forum.

Ok this is the longest thread i have seen, I managed 22 pages but cant keep going.....

My question for the masses of Hitachi S500 owners or any others...

When watching my 57S500 on poor SD material (i know) I can see a sort of digitization that hovers over the image. It looks like another image has been pasted onto the first image and kind of floats around. Especially noticably on flesh tones in low light situations, although I can see it with backgrounds which seem to float and move with no logical coherence.

Does anyone know or have seen what I am talking about? This is very hard to explain. I have noticed this problem to a lesser extent on a couple of older DVDs and poor transfer DVDs but mainly see the problem when watching standard cable...some channels are really bad (TBS) some are really good (A&E). Is there an easy fix in the service menu? Is this solarization that I read of? Doesnt really sound like it to me? Any help comments would be appreciated.

BTW, the S500 is a great tv.

Do you mean another of the SAME image? (Ghosting) On CBS last year for football games I could see 3 of each player when zoomed out (half of one, a whole one blended, and another half sticking out)

And what do you mean floating around? The 2nd image moves around?

It might just be what happens on nasty low-res stuff, where something moves across the screen and you can see the pixels seem to fade back what they were before the thing moved across, but they do it slowly. Kind of like a light moving across a black picture, and leaves a trail, only it's all pixely?

BTW people pls read my post a few posts up, I just cannot find a solution to that.

Vhagar

I have a T500 and I too HAD the squish on the left side after my convergance went whacko. I got a template and redid the geometry and convergance from scratch. This got rid of 98% of the effect BUT it took about 4 hours to do and made me kinda woozy looking at grid lines that long. Since then I have discovered something else that is mildly upsetting about the screen bezel.

The first vertical line is supposed to be 25.3mm from the edge of the screen as outlined in the SM. I assume this is on center of the line not one edge or the other. If you measure from the screen bezel I would be willing to be it's off, mine was even after using the template.. huh?? So I double checked the template and it's dead on. I put the template back on when I had extra time and discovered that the screen bezel is not correct at least on my set. The first time I used it I slipped it under the bezel and D'uh forgot to check the center. So I put it over the bezel and centered it horizontally and vertically. That's when I noticed the bezel sticks into the template about 1~2mm making the bezel an invalid reference point to measure from..

I corrected the geometry to conform to the template when installed over the bezel and centered properly and the left squish is a thing of the past.

If you don't have a template you can use tape and kite string to make a grid using the SM measurements. Just be sure you have a metric tape measure and find the H and V center of the screen.

I guess I rambled for something so simple but I am not in "to the point mode"

So I wonder if it's possible or advisable to "trim" the bezel edge if someone were so daring.

So basically the problem is the convergence is moved too far to the left edge? So, would I be able to just move the entire grid (using the function) to the right, to kind of give it a quick fix? Or maybe just move the left side points in a little? I've tried using the positions adjustments and moving it to the right, but it has no effect. Is changing the convergence different?

yeah, I said this is hard to describe...

no, nothing like ghosting or ringing.

The second image (poor description on my behalf) moves around like when a persons face turns to the left there is part of it that had to catch up with the first part. Kind of like a blurring effect of detail. Kind of like watching tv on acid. I notice this effect most strongly when the camera pans or a person moves around...again faces and skin tones are the worst, static images dont have the same effect. It is definately low resolution stuff, however, on TBS for example the commercials could be fine but then the movie would show this effect. Maybe a 3:2 pulldown error? I tried turning on/off this feature with no benefit.

Sorry if this has been addressed, but at 55 pages this forum is WAY to much to read everything. I just bought a 57S700. I can't get the TV to work as a center channel speaker. I have an Onkyo 787 amp with a center channel out. I don't know whether it's amplified or not but i assume its not. I'm also asumming the the TV would be looking for a Non-amplified input and use it's own amp...yes no?

Thanks,
Flyboy

i just got an idea - and it may be REALLY stupid..so bear with me...

For some reason, the idea of replacing the S500's speakers with really good speakers came to mind

1 - would this work?
2 - big performance gain?
3 - Void warranty? (i assume yes)
4 - has anyone ever tried this?

just a thought - i just finished my morning coffee and this is the first "real" thought I had, lol

Originally posted by Flyboy@39zero
...I just bought a 57S700. I can't get the TV to work as a center channel speaker. I have an Onkyo 787 amp with a center channel out. I don't know whether it's amplified or not but i assume its not. I'm also asumming the the TV would be looking for a Non-amplified input and use it's own amp...yes no?

As a new owner of a 57S700, I encountered the same situation. According to Hitachi tech support, connect the TV's Center Channel IN to your receiver's Center Channel Preamp OUT. The signal should not be amplified; it goes to the TV's internal amp. Using the TV's OSD, choose "Set as Center Channel" for the internal speakers. This works, but to me it seems inelegant because I have to use the TV's volume control for the center channel. On the other hand, it may be useful to be able to control the volume of the center channel speaker separately.

My post above concerning using the 57S700's internal speakers as the center channel was unclear. When I set the volume of the internal speakers using the TV's volume control, the receiver's volume control will override it. I have to use the TV volume control to initially "match" the volume of the external speakers.

Vhagar
The problem is that the geometry is off. Each line has to be a certain distance from the others. You can try to eyeball it if you want to move the left most lines over to the left. I wouldn't go too far and there is a limit to where you won't be able to move it anymore.

If you send me a Private message or email me at cmslick3 at sbcglobal dot net, I have some links that will give you a great description of what needs to be done to fully correct it.

Basicly what is happening is the image is being pulled too far into the visable area of the screen and it's causing distortion.

Flyboy, also make sure you change the setting on your Onkyo to use the Center out. I have a Denon AVR1802 am using my TV as the center channel and have the TV volume set to 30 and it works great.

Originally posted by RNAChemist
Kind of like a blurring effect of detail. Kind of like watching tv on acid.

Maybe you're having a flashback? Seriously, it sounds like maybe it's internal light reflections from the CRT's.

I'm seeing something that I haven't seen discussed here. It happens while watching satellite and during most scene changes. It is what looks like combing. Anyone have any ideas how to minimize this?

Also everyone who's complaining about the length of this thread - the Zenith DVB318 thread is 200 PAGES.

Originally posted by rdwalt
I'm seeing something that I haven't seen discussed here. It happens while watching satellite and during most scene changes. It is what looks like combing. Anyone have any ideas how to minimize this?

Turn off Auto-movie mode.

Matt

Thanks Bigrig. I'll try that when I get home. I just had another thought that maybe it's my dish PVR501 receiver. I'll post my findings tomorrow.

thx rdwalt, but it cant be reflections off the crts because most things look great. It is only when watching crappy channels i get this effect. The best solution is too get satelite, but here in Canada we dont have the same options as you US folks.

BTW what is combing?

Originally posted by The_smokester
Thanks Stereodude.

muzz,
I just downloaded the S700/S715 manual and it's all there. Page 68. Probably that's what's happening. You've been Hitachi'd.

I've been Hitachi'd?

I have the manual, I read everything...
I haven't seen anything that explains what is going on, that is why I am asking.....
I'm beginning to believe that the side panel setting is not able to be changed in DTV, but the manual is not really clear...
"In Standard Mode" (Page 68)- I am thinking they are referring to the ability to change to black in SD 4x3 only, which would make sense because my issues are in regards to the DTV equivalents of ABC/NBC/CBS..
I can always change the bars to black on SD broadcasts.
If this is true, it is one of the Fleas I refer to in my sig...
I should be able to set this any way I like IMO, and would like to find an ISF/Flex menu setting, or hardware mod to allow this ( edit#2- upon more thought it would seem there is nothing I can do)..

Edit: I somehow missed what Paul Clancy said, which is basically the conclusion I have arrived at.
Bill also seems to know this.

Thanks for the input folks, it is much appreciated.
m

Can anyone offer any suggestions for my screen on 57S500; the picture is off about 1" to the right. In other words, the first 1" on the left is just blank screen.

Is this something that requires a service call or can I recenter the picture myself?

Thanks,

Dave

DWPerrone very easy to fix yourself.

Get into the service menu, then scroll through to the ISF menu. Look for a parameter called HDPOSI (there are 4 of these, HDPOSI-3 , -4 etc) the first is for ANT A/B, the second is for 480i/p if you need the others PM me. Change the one that applies to you, probably the first one. Changing the value will shift the entire screen to the left or right depending if you increase or decrease the number.

Here is an example of combing. (from www.hometheaterhifi.com)
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/images/dvd-benchmark-part-5-comb_galaxy_quest_small.gif

And turning off auto-movie mode (while watching TV) made it go away.

Yeah, the article here will tell you all you want to know (and more!) - http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

Rdwalt, glad that fixed it for you. I thought it was supposed to be "auto" 3-2 pulldown, but it doesn't seem to work that way.

Matt

OK I have an issue I can't seem to find an answer for.

I have been seeing "shadows" on my screen lately. It happens when the image is generally light colors and a darker object crosses the egde of the screen, usually on the left side. The object seems to cast a "shadow" across the screen from left to right and as wide as the object is.

I have tweaked my set using DVE for color, contrast, brightness, sharpness, and the known color fixes for red and green. I have also done full H/V sizing and geometry correction. I haven't done anything I don't know how or what I am doing.

Has anyone else seen this?? Is this dust/dirt in the cabinet already at 5 months old? I know there are instructions for cleaning that should be followed but if anyone has links to them already I would appreciate them.

Originally posted by cmslick3
Is this dust/dirt in the cabinet already at 5 months old? I know there are instructions for cleaning that should be followed but if anyone has links to them already I would appreciate them.

Yeah, I'm going to be taking apart the TV for Duvetyne installation soon, I wouldn't mind seeing some tips on how to clean inside there.

Matt

thx guys for the links to combing.

Actually, that problem I was attempting to describe may be related to combing. It might be "vertical filtering" which upon moving objects would give the double type image I am seeing. Has anyone noticed this on their S500?

If thats the case though, then turning of auto movie mode should help. Unfortunately, I tried to disable the 3:2 pull-down mode but that doesn't seem to help. Is there a parameter in the service menu that would either reduce or disable the 3:2 pull-down?

Odd question, and maybe i'm just phrasing it wrong. I tried to dig through this thread for information (psst, someone edit the first post and paste some direct post links for common problems?).

Anyhow,

I've been trying to adjust the convergence on my 57S700 to get rid of an issue with a blue shadow effect. The colors seem converged, as the white pattern is white and clear, the only problem is it seems no matter what I do, I get a slight blue ghost/shadow along the right edge of the white pattern.

Any suggestions? I apologize in advance if this is a dumb question.

Originally posted by Jubal Harshaw Jr
As a new owner of a 57S700, I encountered the same situation. According to Hitachi tech support, connect the TV's Center Channel IN to your receiver's Center Channel Preamp OUT. The signal should not be amplified; it goes to the TV's internal amp. Using the TV's OSD, choose "Set as Center Channel" for the internal speakers. This works, but to me it seems inelegant because I have to use the TV's volume control for the center channel. On the other hand, it may be useful to be able to control the volume of the center channel speaker separately.

To me, that is pretty much unacceptable. Once you get your surround sound set up properly, changing volume levels is out of the question.
I guess my old (or a new one) center channel speaker stays.

:)

I came across a very interesting idea in the CRT Projector forums in using a Pantone Spyder and its supplied software to calibrate grey scale/colors on CRT TV's. With a laptop it could be a poor-mans cailbrator? I read up on the capabilities of the Spyder at various sites and it seems very capable, or at least capable to get VERY close to higher priced equipment at fraction of price. The limiting factors of course are having a laptop with DVI/Component output.

Funny thing is I already own a Spyder Pro. I got it to calibrate our monitors at work for the graphics professionals. And let me tell ya, it made a dramatic improvement in the look of their monitors afterwards.

But then again, 200 bucks more and you can start to get into price range of just having it professionally done.

Just a thought though.

Originally posted by Scottn1
I came across a very interesting idea in the CRT Projector forums in using a Pantone Spyder and its supplied software to calibrate grey scale/colors on CRT TV's. With a laptop it could be a poor-mans cailbrator? I read up on the capabilities of the Spyder at various sites and it seems very capable, or at least capable to get VERY close to higher priced equipment at fraction of price. The limiting factors of course are having a laptop with DVI/Component output.

Funny thing is I already own a Spyder Pro. I got it to calibrate our monitors at work for the graphics professionals. And let me tell ya, it made a dramatic improvement in the look of their monitors afterwards.

But then again, 200 bucks more and you can start to get into price range of just having it professionally done.

Just a thought though.

I used the Spyder Pro for my 57S700 and it worked like a champ (you need the colorimeter window in Optical -- Photocal won't cut it). Just needed to make sure that it dangled a few inches from the screen to get a good average reading. And I also learned not to expect perfect grayscale linearity from the TV either -- it's only going to give you +/- 300 from low to high IRE (40 IRE to 80 IRE). It took some work but it I ended up with great results.

Originally posted by cmslick3
OK I have an issue I can't seem to find an answer for.

I have been seeing "shadows" on my screen lately. It happens when the image is generally light colors and a darker object crosses the egde of the screen, usually on the left side. The object seems to cast a "shadow" across the screen from left to right and as wide as the object is.

I have tweaked my set using DVE for color, contrast, brightness, sharpness, and the known color fixes for red and green. I have also done full H/V sizing and geometry correction. I haven't done anything I don't know how or what I am doing.

Has anyone else seen this?? Is this dust/dirt in the cabinet already at 5 months old? I know there are instructions for cleaning that should be followed but if anyone has links to them already I would appreciate them.

Some Sony RPTV's suffer from this. On the Sony, there is a specific service menu item (PWM1) that people were adjusting to fix it. Basically, it was vertical blanking on the left side of the screen. Try to find the "left vertical blanking" control in the service menu and adjust it while watching material that shows the shadow and see if it helps.

Jim,

I don't understand your definition of the term "vertical blanking". Vertical blanking is the time in which the electron beam is shut off after the last line until it moves to the top left corner to start tracing the first line. The vertical blanking interval consist of the front porch, back porch and sync time. All of this is occuring outside of the picture.

Bill

Maybe this a little bit off topic and perhaps a newbie question but here goes. I have my HDTV comcast box hooked up to the video1 composite inputs and my progressive scan dvd player via composite on video2. I just got a tivo and hooked it up to input 3 via svideo and rca for audio. I remember reading something to the effect that you shouldnt use video3 when using the composite hookups. Is the way I have things setup now correct? Thanks in advance.

gambrelw, adjusting the left vertical blanking on my Sony causes the point at which the left side of the picture starts to be drawn on the CRT face to change. It doesn't shift the picture such as a geometry setting, but the left side of the picture starts to get removed and a blank/black vertical bar is in its place. On the HS10 series of Sony RPTV, people were getting the "horizontal banding" (a bright object on the screen would cause a horizontal smear across the entire screen to the right side of the object). Someone figured out that adjsting the PWM1 parameter in the PJE category of the service menu fixed this. To adjust, you'd run the value up until a vertical black bar was overlaying the left side of the image. You would then back it up enough that the picture went all the way to the left side of the screen. You'd then go a couple more clicks so as to not cause a Flash Focus sensor malfunction. The effect is very similar to what the screen looks like when adjusting the left side vertical blanking. Its worth a shot!

chmod, normally you'd use component cables (3 cables colored red,blue,green), NOT composite cables (1 cable, usually yellow), to hook up both a progressive scan DVD player and a HD cable box. Hopefully, you're using component already, and just wrote "composite" by mistake, yes?

Shadowimg,
your description sounds like the blue defocus issue. The blue gun on the hitachi (and all rpcrt sets)is purposly de-focussed from the factory. You can see this effect if you go into the video settings and cycle through to display only blue on the color settings screen. They do this for light output reasons and it generally doesnt effect pq negatively unless the defocus is extreme. You can tighten up electronic and manual focus easily on the s500/700 (front access for both) but be aware if you go too tight there will be a purple ringing effect...just back off untill that is gone. Also be very careful NOT to touch the screen pots as you will hose your greyscale. I'd be interested to know from the owners of the new sets if front access to manual lens focus is still possible and if the overscan pots are gone?

Originally posted by Jim Banville
chmod, normally you'd use component cables (3 cables colored red,blue,green), NOT composite cables (1 cable, usually yellow), to hook up both a progressive scan DVD player and a HD cable box. Hopefully, you're using component already, and just wrote "composite" by mistake, yes?

Yes, typo on my part.

Originally posted by DWPerrone
Can anyone offer any suggestions for my screen on 57S500; the picture is off about 1" to the right. In other words, the first 1" on the left is just blank screen.

Is this something that requires a service call or can I recenter the picture myself?

Thanks,

Dave
I am having a similiar problem, But mine seems to be with just when its showing 1080i. It seems that Discovery HD channel bug is cut off, The y on discovery is off the screen, and some of the D. Also does this on NBC when watching the tonight show in HD, Some of the NBC logo is to far right. But the thing is, The picture fills my whole screen....SO I am not sure its to far right.

When watching an SD in 480i stretched 4:3 it seems like everything fits perfect! DVD's are the same when watching in 480p they fill the whole screen perfectly.

This is driving me insane......Any suggestions?

Parker it sounds like there is too much overscan.

Originally posted by muzz
Parker it sounds like there is too much overscan.

Thats what I keep hearing, But I cant find anywhere with directions on how to adjust this. I tried a search and come up with no "directions" on how to correct the problem.

Originally posted by Parker Lewis
This is driving me insane......Any suggestions?

yeah go back a page or two....I put in a suggestion there that works.

I have used HDPOSI to fix a centering issue on my 480i component input. Note that the service manual says this parameter adjusts something other than horizontal position.

Originally posted by Parker Lewis
Thats what I keep hearing, But I cant find anywhere with directions on how to adjust this. I tried a search and come up with no "directions" on how to correct the problem.

I would look here, and concentrate on the brand/model you have.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=323602

Avia or DVE have overscan patterns on them to show how much you have.

Folks will be here to answer.

Be careful, and GL

Originally posted by Parker Lewis
Thats what I keep hearing, But I cant find anywhere with directions on how to adjust this. I tried a search and come up with no "directions" on how to correct the problem.

You go into the DCAM and pull the convergence lines in more. But you have to keep the spacing between the lines correct, or parts of the picture will be squished/stretched. A custom template would help out.

Matt

Originally posted by JayJervey
I used the Spyder Pro for my 57S700 and it worked like a champ (you need the colorimeter window in Optical -- Photocal won't cut it). Just needed to make sure that it dangled a few inches from the screen to get a good average reading. And I also learned not to expect perfect grayscale linearity from the TV either -- it's only going to give you +/- 300 from low to high IRE (40 IRE to 80 IRE). It took some work but it I ended up with great results.

Jay,
What information do you get from the colorimeter window in Optical that is not available in Photocal? I have been using photocal with mixed success for some time now to set grey scale just by using the x-y coordinates. Are you using the blue IR LCD filter to set grey scale? I have found that by not using the LCD filter it causes the image to turn out way to warm (red).

-Shawn

Originally posted by Paul Clancy
Shadowimg,
your description sounds like the blue defocus issue. The blue gun on the hitachi (and all rpcrt sets)is purposly de-focussed from the factory. You can see this effect if you go into the video settings and cycle through to display only blue on the color settings screen. They do this for light output reasons and it generally doesnt effect pq negatively unless the defocus is extreme. You can tighten up electronic and manual focus easily on the s500/700 (front access for both) but be aware if you go too tight there will be a purple ringing effect...just back off untill that is gone. Also be very careful NOT to touch the screen pots as you will hose your greyscale. I'd be interested to know from the owners of the new sets if front access to manual lens focus is still possible and if the overscan pots are gone?

Sounds like a winner. I'm at work, so to pre-emptively avoid this question later when I go look at it, where am I going to find these pots, and what will the identifiers for the different pots be? (Text label? color? just position on board?)

Originally posted by shadowimg
Sounds like a winner. I'm at work, so to pre-emptively avoid this question later when I go look at it, where am I going to find these pots, and what will the identifiers for the different pots be? (Text label? color? just position on board?)

Picture here -
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=179288

Referenced in the 51F500 Tweaks thread, all y'all newbies (no offense) go read it!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=273639

Matt

More pictures of the innards, and how to access the lenses for manual focus - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=353829

Sorry if this has been covered before but so far a search through the thread has not been very productive. Does anyone know what generation of Zenith's 8VSB chipsets the 51s700 uses? I know the 5th generation chips will be in products by Christmas and I would like to figure out how out of date I am. Thanks.

This thread has been quiet for a few days, so I would like to add my impressions of the 57S700, as a new (30 days) owner. The Cliffs Notes version: It's fantastic.

I bought the 700 rather than the 500 because it was the only one available. The most frequent 700-specific comment I've seen here is fan noise. Mine sits on a tile floor close to a brick wall, so this probably the worst-case scenario. I placed a large, rectangular acoustic ceiling tile against the brick wall directly behind the set. This seemed to lower the perceived noise level some, and it never bothers me. In fact, I usually don't notice it unless I make a conscious effort to listen. It would not stop me from buying another 57S700, if that situation ever arose.

What I do notice every time I turn it on is the incredible picture quality. Mine looked great out of the box. The brightness and contrast were both at 50, so all I did after setup was a Magic Focus.

In my opinion, the ONLY thing this set gives up to a plasma/LCD/whatever else is the inability to hang it on a wall (at least not my wall). When you consider bang for the picture-quality buck, nothing else comes close.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=436616&highlight=hitachi

More help for a 51S700

I have a 57S500 and have noticed a cracking/clicking noise on the digital and HD channels; does not happen on analog channels that I can hear. I called Adelphia, they can't come out until 9/17.

I'm thinking this is a problem with cable box; anyone think this could be TV related? I don't have any external audio equipment attached.

Originally posted by DWPerrone
I have a 57S500 and have noticed a cracking/clicking noise on the digital and HD channels; does not happen on analog channels that I can hear. I called Adelphia, they can't come out until 9/17.

I'm thinking this is a problem with cable box; anyone think this could be TV related? I don't have any external audio equipment attached.

Had same static problem. Lose wire on one of the tubes. Eventually got a replacement tube and then had to get a replacement TV. New one doing fine. Check out:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=357578&perpage=10&pagenumber=4

i have this too sometimes (clicking on HD channels)

this is what i did...

When I heard the clicking, I put the audio from the TV to the stereo and the clicking existed - so it is NOT my 57S500, <rant> but rather the goddam POS that TWC gave me known as the 3250HD - this box loves to reset the video settings to FIXED rather than UPCONVERT - thanks timewarner - communists

</rant>

to get rid of the clicking, i surf to an SD channel then back to an HD channel

Hello,

I have had my 51S500 for about a month now and love it. The dvd's and HDTV look great. The HDTV is amazing. However, the SD picture is terrible.

I have a Motorola HDTV box from Comcast and the HDTV pictures are very clear and sharp, but the regular cable stations are really bad. The higher number digital stations are a little better though, but still fuzzy. The regular cable stations are very fuzzy and unclear.

If the HDTV staions are great, could the SD ones be so bad? Is it the box or the tv?

I have the box conncected via component cables.

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Jim

Originally posted by jbrig
Any ideas?

Thanks,
Jim

Tweaks thread - know it, love it :D - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4211689#post4211689

Phenolite,

You hit the nail right on the head. I have Adelphia and the SA3250HD

It is not the TV because on ANT1 with a direct feed I get no clicking.

However, a couple of days ago I stumbled along the solution of surfing from a sd channel up through hd. It stopped.

Is your problem reoccuring? Any alternatives, is it inherent to all of these boxes or should I swap if it happens again?

it's recurring alright

and rather than hit the nail on the head, i'd rather hit a TWC rep right in the mouth

not sure if we should turn this into a HDTV harware thread ;)

basically, the SA3250HD - sucks

firmware could fix it, but it is up to your cable company

I was very relieved to find it wasn't my hitachi - whew!

It is sad the picture quality on this TV when using either the SA3250 or 8000HD. SD quality is fine when going through Antenna directly into TV.

I'm assuming this is the cable boxes and not the TV, any thoughts?

I've searched and searched but cannot find - How do you adjust the brightness of the convergence grid. I read here there is a setting in the service menu.

If you don't get an answer, PM "gambrelw" I'm sure he'd know.

Matt

I wish I could find the previous post. I think I have it printed out somewhere.

Found this in this thread - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4135847#post4135847

Not sure if it applies to the DCAM lines.

Matt

Originally posted by rdwalt
I've searched and searched but cannot find - How do you adjust the brightness of the convergence grid. I read here there is a setting in the service menu.

You adjust the DCUCNT0 parameter to turn down the brightness of the grid.

Thanks WitDaGrin! Matt, I'm not sure either but I know they are talking about the black side bars.

ImageQuest - please check you PMs. Thanks. Scott

I have a stupid question about my new 51S500. I have a cable box I am leasing from Comcast for my HDTV. If I add an OTA to receive ABC and a few other stations, do I hook the antenna to the HDTV cable box or the tv directly?

If it goes to the tv, do I need an external hdtv receiver? Or, am I able to automatically receive hdtv OTA via the antenna and connecting it to one of the ANT jacks?

Thanks,
Jim

S500 doesn't have a built-in HD tuner. So you'd have to connect the antenna to the cable box, if it will accept it.

Matt

Originally posted by jbrig
I have a stupid question about my new 51S500. I have a cable box I am leasing from Comcast for my HDTV. If I add an OTA to receive ABC and a few other stations, do I hook the antenna to the HDTV cable box or the tv directly?

If it goes to the tv, do I need an external hdtv receiver? Or, am I able to automatically receive hdtv OTA via the antenna and connecting it to one of the ANT jacks?

Thanks,
Jim


If yours is like my Comcast HD box, it is only for their own cable lineup. It is not like an HD-capable satellite box, which will do local OTA also.

Local OTA is direct competition for cable, always has been. They are not going to give away receiving it beside their own cable lineup. Definitely not with making their cable STBs capable of receiving it!

This goes for SD as well as HD, IMHO.


Mr Bob

Hi.. I purchased a 65s500 and have a couple of questions.

First, when I pull the menu down it's blue with yellow specs. Is this right? Also, I noticed when using my xbox (with hd av pack) the games are pretty grainy/blocky. I didn't use my AVIA dvd yet, but will tonight to set things up. My contrast was up to 100, which I turned down. Why would they turn it up so much?

I was looking into the TERK HDTVi indoor antennae with a HDTV Tuner. I heard mixed reviews on this. Has anyone have any experience with this?

I noticed on the CNN channel, that the words on the screen seem kinda statically. Also I read about 15 pages on here, just too much info. Is there anything I can do to perhaps get a better picture (heard of some people going into the TV and focusing the red/blue/green, etc..).

Hey Jmargel,
Welcome to the forum! Yes, the menu is blue with yellow specs. I cannot comment on the xbox but I'm wondering how far away you are sitting. You should be at least 8 to 10 feet back. Contrast is set to 100 so that the TV will look good on a bright showroom floor. I turned my contrast down to around 28 to 30. The AVIA will really help you make these kinds of adjustments.

I cannot comment on the TERK HDTV antenna but it depends on what HDTV Tuner you're using and how far away from the HDTV towers you are located.

If you're not currently receiving an High Definition signal, images will not be all that clear. Also I would not make any major adjustments until the TV is over 100 hours old, and after that there are many things one can do to make the picture look better. One of the best things is to hire a qualified ISF technician to come out and adjust it. If you're competent enough you can do a lot yourself: convergence; overscan; electrostatic and manual focus; service menu adjustments; etc... Details on all of these adjustments can be found here using the search function. Good luck, have fun and ask plenty of questions! :p

jmargel - There's a whole 'buncha adjustments you can do to get a better picture - Read up here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=273639&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

The red push fix should be one of your first, after turning down contrast. The "ghosting" settings made a big difference for SD material on mine. Good luck, have fun!

Matt

Originally posted by jmargel
Hi.. I purchased a 65s500 and have a couple of questions.

Also, I noticed when using my xbox (with hd av pack) the games are pretty grainy/blocky.

It really depends on the game...note that most XBox games aren't HD, so even with the HD pack, they are SD. Look on the box for each game, old ones have no HD markings, new ones will give the resolutions supported on the back (480P/720P/1080i).

Non-HD games are 'blocky', but 1080i games look incredible.

-Andy

Originally posted by jmargel
Hi.. I purchased a 65s500 and have a couple of questions.



I was looking into the TERK HDTVi indoor antennae with a HDTV Tuner. I heard mixed reviews on this. Has anyone have any experience with this?




Any oldfashioned antenna capable of regular old fullrange OTA VHF/UHF reception is going to be a fantastic digital-receiving antenna, which will include HD. Even rabbit ears and an aimable loop will work perfectly, if you are sufficiently close to the broadcasting tower.

I use the Radio Shack 10' roof antenna with the panes that slant towards each other - which I think all RS antennas do, making it more directional than antennas whose panes are parallel, without the panes being slanted - and am in heaven.

I live in the East Bay section of the SF Bay Area, about 25 miles away from Twin Peaks tower in SF - where 90% of the HD channels in the Bay Area come from - with straight line-of-sight to the tower, and actually need to have a 3 way splitter involved, or it will overmodulate my signal, causing herringbone. (Or I could use a variable attenuator, but I can use the splitting anyway, because of my VCR, TV and HD STB all needing the OTA signal. A 4 way would provide exactly the same attenuation should I need a 4th run, to a 4th instrument.)

It is more difficult if you have multipath worries, but usualy can be done if you know how to do it.

I don't know which Terk you are talking about. Unless you live very far away, you don't need to buy a high end, highly directional $400 Terk, tho I must say the one I saw in action made perfect HD reception from 125 miles away possible on one of my client's calibrations I performed. It is huge - my recollection (from 3-4 years ago, so allow me to be off a bit) is that is is 2-3' long, 6' thick with 1/4" tubes spiralling it, making it look like a giant laser! And it worked!

Of course in my application the overkill would totally decimate my picture!


Mr Bob

Originally posted by rdwalt
Hey Jmargel,
Welcome to the forum! Yes, the menu is blue with yellow specs. I cannot comment on the xbox but I'm wondering how far away you are sitting. You should be at least 8 to 10 feet back. Contrast is set to 100 so that the TV will look good on a bright showroom floor. I turned my contrast down to around 28 to 30. The AVIA will really help you make these kinds of adjustments.


One of the best things is to hire a qualified ISF technician to come out and adjust it. :p



Couldn't agree more.

I have calibrated many Hitachis, whose individual r, g and b images have always been some of the sharpest out there. I have watched them evolve into some of the most delicious pix available, once they started allowing the convergence to be done on the actual pic sent in, which I believe all current models do now.

And the decoder's registers allow the most linearity possible in a color decoder. It's smooth as silk, as is the picture structure also, once fully calibrated. Much better - finer and crisper - on HD than a 50" Samsung DLP, one of which I calibrated recently.

Look at the fully calibrated 65" Panny on my website, front cover and inside also, zoomed up even more. If you want your 65" pic to look like that, I am on it!

Mr Bob

Greetings folks, I just got a 57S700 last month. It was a floor model they were clearing out at Sears. I ended up buying a 3-year extended warranty as well just in case something went wrong. By the way, they offer free "maintenance" once every year under that plan which amounts to nothing more than a tech coming out and wiping the dust off your lenses. Big whoop. I was told they would also calibrate it, but that was a line of hooey. The guy barely knew what he was doing, so I probably won't have them come out again in the coming years.

That said, I love this set. I think if people come in with reasonable expectations they won't be disappointed. No, it won't make SD signals look any better (although the noise reduction definitely helps for grainy signals). Nothing is going to look really magical except HDTV, which still isn't common enough yet anyway. But this isn't a "should I get an HDTV thread" this is a "I'm going to get an HDTV, is such and such TV any good?" thread. And it is. It's REALLY good (the 57S700). Just playing games on it is a dream come true. Oddly enough, most of my GameCube games hooked up through S-video look awesome and in most cases better than my Xbox hooked up through component. Both are great though.

I removed the protective screen from the unit. Having done that, I do not recommend it for most folks unless you have serious issues with glare. I didn't, I just had my mind set that it would be a more "pure" picture and the removal of the "tinted" screen would make a difference. The difference in that regard is negligible. There is no reason to remove the screen other than glare issues. Read that line again, don't fall for the hype of people trying to flimsily justify what they did with any other rationalization. I actually regret it, although it doesn't really make anything worse. It was just a lot of trouble for nothing.

I'm getting Digital Video Essentials soon and hopefully can do any final calibrating (I do notice that big, bright red areas look a little bit screen-doory). We'll see how it goes...

Originally posted by eltis
There is no reason to remove the screen other than glare issues. Read that line again, don't fall for the hype of people trying to flimsily justify what they did with any other rationalization. I actually regret it, although it doesn't really make anything worse. It was just a lot of trouble for nothing.




You must always watch it at night, in darkness. Even relative darkness can cause those bleck-y reflections that so intervene when watching an otherwise good pic, when it is a low-light-level scene.

No, the glarescreen won't do much if it is not causing reflections, tho the bluish/purplish ones WILL dick with your grayscale.

The universal response I have had every time I do all it takes to remove one - and the customer finally gets to see a completely unimpeded picture on his RPTV - is that they are left breathless, and in shock and awe. I generally keep hearing about it from every new person who stumbles into the viewing room and sees the pic, for the whole next hour.


Mr Bob


PS - I echo your statements about the yearly "maintenance".

BTW, don't ever let anybody use any kind of "dry" cleaning technique on your optics - lenses or mirror(s). Lenses are usually plastic, and are very easily permanently scratched. Mirrors on HDreadys are front surface, where the aluminum is on the front, not the back, of the glass.

Hey MrBob, I looked at that pic on your site and it is NICE. Can you recomend an ISF calibrater in the Seattle area that can do that good of a job?

Tony

Originally posted by tandersn
Hey MrBob, I looked at that pic on your site and it is NICE. Can you recomend an ISF calibrater in the Seattle area that can do that good of a job?

Tony


Thank you.

At the time I bought it in 2001, there was no better RPTV HD image out there than Panasonic's, and I don't think that has changed any, from my experience of calibrating all types and brands since then.

That 65" of mine took well over 20 hours to complete, over weeks of spare time here and there, because not only did it have 480i/p and 1080i, but was the last CRT RPTV to faithfully play 720p native as well. Year 2000 model, none since. Along with the substantial overscan, the sloppy geometry and convergence and the horrendous OOB grayscales, it also took work on the color decoders of both the HD and the SD sections, to get it fully accurate. There was a long learning curve in discovering what does what to what, in the service menu, among the 4 major modalities - not counting that 480i S had different regs from 480i component! I took copious notes, because I had a LOT of testing and discovering to do before I could achieve proficiency.

But the proof is in the pudding, as you can see. Can't stay away from the damn thing - even plop myself down in front of it for awhile after travelling back home after a calibration that has ended up at 1 in the morning, an hour away! You'd be surprised what I have found on the pay channels that late at night...

Brand new, just purchased OOB Pannys need lots of work, even after the first 100 hours - which of course I could NOT wait for! But fully calibrated Pannys can't be beat - not by any other brand of CRT RPTV, nor any fixed pixel RPTV modality short of the new and still very expensive 1080p's. (Any fixed pixel, whether flat panel or projected, that is commonly available and affordable right now is still 720p.) They have absolutely the most stellar RPTV HD picture out there, and of course still have the perfect blacks that only CRTs are capable of.

You might want to check out the "About the Cover" link, once inside the website. That pic on the cover was taken with a Canon Photura 35mm film camera at 6' viewing distance, on about a 3 second time exposure from a freezeframed HD image. Had to use the timer function of the camera - hitting the snap button on the camera by hand would have caused camera shake and blurred the pic.

You can actually see a zoomed up version of that pic inside, in the Screenshots section. Just click on the pic, and it will give you the higher res, bigger version.


To answer your question, no. I have been flown to Seattle, Vancouver and Bill Gates's town - can't remember the name right now - in Washington, and as far up as Vancouver BC in Canada for calibrations, as far as the Pacific Northwest goes. (Along with Portland, my former home town, of course. I will be in Portland for Xmas from the 23 to the 29, if anybody wants a cal while I am there.) Very few of us around, and no I don't know anybody in Seattle. Lots of ISF trained calibration entities - who only do grayscales and recalibrate the user settings - but very few full spectrum/full service calibrators who can do everything needed. Which for a CRT RPTV is the image structural aspects - a vast uncharted territory for 99% of those who are simply "ISF Certified". The image structure on CRT RPTVs is WELL over half the battle!

Fly me up and I'll split the plane ticket with you. My brother lives there, has decided to buy a home there, and I would love to visit him in Seattle sometime soon.


Mr Bob

Hello all. I am new to this thread and hope that you may help me. I bought the Hitachi S500 57 inch from CC the other day. Lately, every morning that I turn the unit on, it has horizontal static lines in the picture! It lasts for about 5-10 minutes, then goes away? I have ruled out AV interference, so has anybody heard of this before?

Brentman - I know I've seen a thread by "injaneer" on that subject, and I think I referred someone else to it in this thread. Try searching for that. I believe the solution may have been replacing one of the guns?

Matt

Many apologies if this was covered already and I managed to overlook it. Seriously, I've been hunting for the answer for over an hour, but all searching on 'aspect' 'narrow' '480p' or any such combination either came up empty or needle in haystack.

Maybe someone can throw me a pointer.

I've got an HDTivo going througha 65S500. On 1080i, the Tivo pillarboxes the image. However, if I send 480p, then the TV seems to do the pillarbox with 4:3 standard.

My issue is that the TV seems to lose the right and left edge of the picture and use pillar boxes that are unnecessarily big. In other words, the pillars when the Tivo places them are narrower (thus a wider picture) than when I feed the TV with 480i or 480p and use the TV to set the zoom to 4:3 standard.

It's not that the picture is scrunched too narrow, the aspect looks correct, the edges just seem to be lopped off (I see detail through the TiVo that I don't see through the TV.

Anyway, does this have something to do with overscan and geometry, or some other factor. Is there any way to see the full content of the 480i/p signal when the TV does the pillarbox? Am I just clueless (I *am*a newbie here so I wouldn't be terribly surpried on that.

Craig, I'm not real sure what you're talking about, but lemme try to help.

I tell my HDtivo I have a 4:3 TV. What is yours set to? If I leave the output at 1080i, 16:9 HD will pass-through un-altered, and the tivo will add gray bars to the sides of the 4:3 picture. But I can switch to 480p for SD and have the TV stretch it with "4:3 Expanded".

Wait, I'm getting confused. Do you want gray bars on the side of the 4:3 image? Then you could just use the Tivo at 1080i. Do you want to stretch 4:3? Then you would lose part of the picture anyway. I think the solution is to only watch 16:9 HD, as God and the HDTivo intended. :p

This sounds like a question for the Tivo Community HD Tivo forum, maybe. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/

Sorry I'm no help. ;) I'll have to experiment at home and see if I can see what you're talking about.

Matt

I posted this in it's own thread but no one wants to help me. My tv is very similar to a f500 so I thought I'd post it here and maybe someone knows something. I have a Hitachi 51uwx20b and when the screen is totally dark I can see a little bit of light at the top of the screen. This light seems to be flashing or flickering. This problem went away as soon as I moved here away from my parents house but now after a year it's back. I recently added a battery backup for my new HD Tivo and I have tried moving the cables all around and it still flickers. I can even see it when the scenes are bright now! What is going on? Someone please help. (I don't think this is related to the flicker I can see sometimes when there's a solid pink on the screen.) I found out it's only at 1080i and the reason I'm seeing it again now is whenever I play something at 1080 and then go back to 480 it reverts VirtualHD to 1080. I finally got my HD Tivo! Why is everything flickering?

Originally posted by nothru22
I posted this in it's own thread but no one wants to help me. My tv is very similar to a f500 so I thought I'd post it here and maybe someone knows something. I have a Hitachi 51uwx20b and when the screen is totally dark I can see a little bit of light at the top of the screen. This light seems to be flashing or flickering. This problem went away as soon as I moved here away from my parents house but now after a year it's back. I recently added a battery backup for my new HD Tivo and I have tried moving the cables all around and it still flickers. I can even see it when the scenes are bright now! What is going on? Someone please help. (I don't think this is related to the flicker I can see sometimes when there's a solid pink on the screen.) I found out it's only at 1080i and the reason I'm seeing it again now is whenever I play something at 1080 and then go back to 480 it reverts VirtualHD to 1080. I finally got my HD Tivo! Why is everything flickering?

I would open up my set's optical cavity while this is happening and see if you can observe what is happening offscreen, which sounds like it seems to be wandering/floundering partially onto your screen to a certain degree. If it is something that you can block by putting some sort of black shield in there, it might become unnoticeable.

The more expensive ceiling pjs - and some RPTVs - have blanking circuits for such purposes.


Mr Bob

Do you mean take the screen off?

Originally posted by bigrig
Craig, I'm not real sure what you're talking about, but lemme try to help.

Thanks for trying-- I'll try to clarify...

I tell my HDtivo I have a 4:3 TV. What is yours set to? If I leave the output at 1080i, 16:9 HD will pass-through un-altered, and the tivo will add gray bars to the sides of the 4:3 picture. But I can switch to 480p for SD and have the TV stretch it with "4:3 Expanded".


I've had mine in this mode, but I've since gone with telling the Tivo I have a 16:9 and let the Tivo do all the boxing. You go to 480P and use 4:3 Expand-- I get the same effect by going to 480p, hitting the ratio from Panel to Full and then doing 4:3 Expand. But this isn't what I'm talking about.


Wait, I'm getting confused. Do you want gray bars on the side of the 4:3 image? Then you could just use the Tivo at 1080i. Do you want to stretch 4:3? Then you would lose part of the picture anyway. I think the solution is to only watch 16:9 HD, as God and the HDTivo intended. :p


I *like* the way the HDTivo puts pillars around SD content. It seems to do it right. The width of the sidebars seems exactly the same size as the sidebars on ESPN-HD when it is showing SD content.

The problem seems to be when I feed a 480i or 480p SD signal to my TV. In this case, the TV puts side pillars on in in 4:3 standard. *Those* side pillars seem too wide and seems to crop content that on the edges of the picture.


This sounds like a question for the Tivo Community HD Tivo forum, maybe. http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/


No, I'm pleased with the HDTivo-- it's the TV that seems to be doing the wrong thing with a 480i/480p signal in 4:3 standard.


Sorry I'm no help. ;) I'll have to experiment at home and see if I can see what you're talking about.

Matt

Thanks again for looking at it-- hopefully my clarifications will help you understand what I'm looking at.

Could anyone post directions on how to "center" my HD picture?

On discovery HD, The D and ther "ery" are off the right hand side of the screen.

I have heard someone say that this is called "overscan", Is there a way to fix this?

Also was curious if it is normal to have a little "noise" in the HD picture? Its only noticable the closer you get to the screen.

Thanks guys.

Yes that noise is normal. In fact, you'll be seeing more and more of it as D* keeps shrinking the signal.

Originally posted by nothru22
Do you mean take the screen off?

Yes.

Originally posted by Parker Lewis
Could anyone post directions on how to "center" my HD picture?

On discovery HD, The D and ther "ery" are off the right hand side of the screen.

I have heard someone say that this is called "overscan", Is there a way to fix this?


Thanks guys.


Overscan is very common on all CRT based RPTVs. Recentering probably won't be nearly enough help. If you test for it, you will probably find you are losing info an all sides, not just that corner.

Taking in the oversizing is emminently doable, but it totally hoses your entire picture, and your geometry and convergence have to be totally redone from scratch. The pincushioning, keystoning and misconverging on a pic that has to be resized to eliminate overscan as much as possible requires an hour or 2 of extra work even for an experienced calibrator like myself. This is aside from the regular work already needed OOB on straightening and high-precisioning factory geometry and convergence on new sets, and would obviously require much more time and energy from a newbie.

I recommend having a calibrator do it, along with all the other juicy things a calibrator can implement for you during a calibration of any CRT based RPTV. Hitachis these days can produce some of the finest HD imaging out there, totally in the top rung. But it takes talent to accomplish, and the patience of Job.

ei, a LONG learning curve!


Mr Bob

Originally posted by Mr Bob
Overscan is very common on all CRT based RPTVs. Recentering probably won't be nearly enough help. If you test for it, you will probably find you are losing info an all sides, not just that corner.

Taking in the oversizing is emminently doable, but it totally hoses your entire picture, and your geometry and convergence have to be totally redone from scratch. The pincushioning, keystoning and misconverging on a pic that has to be resized to eliminate overscan as much as possible requires an hour or 2 of extra work even for an experienced calibrator like myself. This is aside from the regular work already needed OOB on straightening and high-precisioning factory geometry and convergence on new sets, and would obviously require much more time and energy from a newbie.

I recommend having a calibrator do it, along with all the other juicy things a calibrator can implement for you during a calibration of any CRT based RPTV. Hitachis these days can produce some of the finest HD imaging out there, totally in the top rung. But it takes talent to accomplish, and the patience of Job.

ei, a LONG learning curve!


Mr Bob
O have heard from some people that you can adjust this in the "isf menu". Now I am having a problem with the left and right hand side of the screen are slightly cut off when watching a 16x9 dvd.

My questions is, Is there someway to adjust the "squish" to kind of squeeze the picture closer together so it fits my screen? I have been through the isf menu and ran into "vert" and "horz" adjustment, But no way to squeeze the picture.....That I can see. I dont know what half of the adjustments in the isf menu do, So maybe I am overlooking it?

Originally posted by Parker Lewis
O have heard from some people that you can adjust this in the "isf menu". Now I am having a problem with the left and right hand side of the screen are slightly cut off when watching a 16x9 dvd.

My questions is, Is there someway to adjust the "squish" to kind of squeeze the picture closer together so it fits my screen? I have been through the isf menu and ran into "vert" and "horz" adjustment, But no way to squeeze the picture.....That I can see. I dont know what half of the adjustments in the isf menu do, So maybe I am overlooking it?


I usually just use the 2 blue sizing pots inside the cutout down below, at the left edge of the mother board, left side.

However be careful, because if you take those pots in too much you'll have excellent overscan, but the Magic Focus sensors at the edges of your screen will no longer be hit by the internally sent-out marking signals, in red green and blue, during the MF process.

Thus from then on your Magic Focus will not work.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by Mr Bob
I usually just use the 2 blue sizing pots inside the cutout down below, at the left edge of the mother board, left side.

However be careful, because if you take those pots in too much you'll have excellent overscan, but the Magic Focus sensors at the edges of your screen will no longer be hit by the internally sent-out marking signals, in red green and blue, during the MF process.

Thus from then on your Magic Focus will not work.


Mr Bob

Okay, I made the adjustments. Adjusted the sizing pot on the right for horiz and adjusted the one o the left for vert, Now the picture is sorta warped near the left and right edges. Should I just adjust it back and deal with the overscan?

I closed it closer in so I could see the "tickers" on Fox and they look very warped now.

Do I need to go in and adjust the geometry now?

Also, When I go into "magic focus" auto mode, It just says "static" in giant letters with a big crosshatch in the middle of the screen. It was doing this before any adjustments were made to the pots.

Originally posted by Parker Lewis
Okay, I made the adjustments. Adjusted the sizing pot on the right for horiz and adjusted the one o the left for vert, Now the picture is sorta warped near the left and right edges. Should I just adjust it back and deal with the overscan?

I closed it closer in so I could see the "tickers" on Fox and they look very warped now.

Do I need to go in and adjust the geometry now?


Yes, redoing the sizing always totally hoses your picture, and you not only have to redo your convergence but your entire geometry paradigm. I thought you knew that! If you're not ready to take on that learning curve, bail out now by resizing back to where you started. All the warping will straighten itself out. I trust you took advice we have been giving DIYers from day one: always mark where you were before you change anything. And/or record your register values before changing anything.

If not, you'll just have to feel it out and do your best to get it right.

Doing everything necessary when resizing your pic to get rid of overscan is a massive job, taking even an experienced calibrator like myself an extra hour or 2 just to get back to normal. I believe I printed that in one of my posts above.



Also, When I go into "magic focus" auto mode, It just says "static" in giant letters with a big crosshatch in the middle of the screen. It was doing this before any adjustments were made to the pots.

Are you sure you don't mean a big "crosshair" in the middle of your screen?

If so, it's this kind of non-attention to detail the sways me to thinking you might want to have a pro do your overscan remedying.

Some people are just not cut out for this kind of stuff. They will do great damage to their images before they will call in qualified help. And then some of them will want some kind of discount just for being a member of this community, where in truth they should be offering more than normal to their calibrator because the pic they are presenting him with is much further off than factory condition usually is.

Please prove me wrong by not messing up your picture too much before you call in the cavalry.


Try unplugging your set for a few minutes and then plugging it back in again. This resetting of the circuitry should get your Magic Focus back, for you.

Truth be told, I like the Static mode. You can do just your full images, and if the rest of your convergence is good, the whole pic falls right into place after Static convergence.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by Mr Bob
Yes, redoing the sizing always totally hoses your picture, and you not only have to redo your convergence but your entire geometry paradigm. I thought you knew that! If you're not ready to take on that learning curve, bail out now by resizing back to where you started. All the warping will straighten itself out. I trust you took advice we have been giving DIYers from day one: always mark where you were before you change anything. And/or record your register values before changing anything.

If not, you'll just have to feel it out and do your best to get it right.

Doing everything necessary when resizing your pic to get rid of overscan is a massive job, taking even an experienced calibrator like myself an extra hour or 2 just to get back to normal. I believe I printed that in one of my posts above.

Oh, And also, I unplugged the set for about 30mins and the magic focus is still in "static" mode. Is there ANY way possible to get out of this??

Also, When I access the "service menu" the screen flickers and it displays a flatline in the middle of the screen. The "isf menu" works fine though.




Are you sure you don't mean a big "crosshair" in the middle of your screen?

If so, it's this kind of non-attention to detail the sways me to thinking you might want to have a pro do your overscan remedying.

Some people are just not cut out for this kind of stuff. They will do great damage to their images before they will call in qualified help. And then some of them will want some kind of discount just for being a member of this community, where in truth they should be offering more than normal to their calibrator because the pic they are presenting him with is much further off than factory condition usually is.

Please prove me wrong by not messing up your picture too much before you call in the cavalry.


Try unplugging your set for a few minutes and then plugging it back in again. This resetting of the circuitry should get your Magic Focus back, for you.

Truth be told, I like the Static mode. You can do just your full images, and if the rest of your convergence is good, the whole pic falls right into place after Static convergence.


Mr Bob

Well, I had to push the little blue button. When I did, I went in and totally redid the geometry. re aligned all the colors and redid the some minor settings. This set looks AWESOME now....Better then the day I bought it.

I could have been in there all day aligning the grid to get it "perfect", But I got it as good as my eyes can see. Actually was quite fun to do and see the results thereafter was a great feeling.

Thanks for all your help Bob. Looks like I will put off getting an isf tech for awhile anyways.:)

Originally posted by Parker Lewis


Oh, And also, I unplugged the set for about 30mins and the magic focus is still in "static" mode. Is there ANY way possible to get out of this??


If you have not reinitialized your Magic Focus with your new settings. this could account for why it won't go into MF now. It's a good idea to do that reinitialization in any case, as part of your recalibration.


Also, When I access the "service menu" the screen flickers and it displays a flatline in the middle of the screen. The "isf menu" works fine though.




The Service election always produces a horizontal line, just like it did in the old days on analog TVs. This was their quite antiquated way of doing grayscale. When the line looked white, they were done.



Well, I had to push the little blue button. When I did, I went in and totally redid the geometry. re aligned all the colors and redid the some minor settings. This set looks AWESOME now....Better then the day I bought it.

I could have been in there all day aligning the grid to get it "perfect", But I got it as good as my eyes can see. Actually was quite fun to do and see the results thereafter was a great feeling.

Thanks for all your help Bob. Looks like I will put off getting an isf tech for awhile anyways.:)


Great job! Feels good, don't it!!!


Mr Bob

Mr. Bob: forgive me if this question has already been answered but Picture Quality wise who rules...s700 or s715? Alot of Rear Projection CRTs have quietly been using less expensive and lower quality components...is this true with Hitachi? I guess what I'm really asking is given the choice of S700versusS714...which would you go with?

Originally posted by Artwood
Mr. Bob: forgive me if this question has already been answered but Picture Quality wise who rules...s700 or s715? Alot of Rear Projection CRTs have quietly been using less expensive and lower quality components...is this true with Hitachi? I guess what I'm really asking is given the choice of S700versusS714...which would you go with?


Sorry, can't tellya. Have not had the pleasure.

From my experience, as long as both have the capacity to converge a real-time image sent from outside the unit - as I believe all the new ones do, in the Hitachi lineup - you won't be able to tell the difference between the 2 when I'm thru with either one.

Hitachi took their place in the top rung of RPTVs when they started making convergence available on real time info rather than just their own too-thick and too-bright internally gen'd patterns, which is how it was for many years until recently, like in the last year or 2.

From then on it was then possible to really trick them out, as far as the image structure went.

And with their fully tweakable color decoder registers and highly linear grayscale they calibrate up superbly, no matter which model I have cal'd.


Mr Bob

Quick question guys... i game across this thread on google. A friend of mine paid 2200$ for his S500 about a year ago. He is now moving across the country and i offered to buy it. What do you think is a fair price? I've seen it only for around $1700 new, but i've also heard of people on forums paying 1300 or 1400 hundred for them new. I was thinking about offering 900 or 100? Is this to low? What to you guys think would be fair for both of us.

Mr. Bob: I have seen hitachi 57X500s at much lower prices than what they used to be. In your opinion do they offer any improvements over S500s/S700s? Most of them i've seen don't cost a whole lot more--is their picture any better?

Originally posted by Artwood
Mr. Bob: I have seen hitachi 57X500s at much lower prices than what they used to be. In your opinion do they offer any improvements over S500s/S700s? Most of them i've seen don't cost a whole lot more--is their picture any better?


I am not up on which models are better than others in any one particular product line, aside from how they work and what they actually do. Like what I said above re. convergence. One with convergence on incoming info can be made to look substantially better than one which requires use of internally gen'd grids, which are too bright and too thick.

Other than that, I am sure that all Hits of the same model year will have the same ISF menu inside, which allows for grayscale and color decoder alignment on all models.

My experience is in the home, where I can really trick out the one unit I am working on. Not on the sales floor, where I could compare this one to that one - on a sales floor none are calibrated, so how would I know?

I just don't ever have access to alternate models of the same brand name in one client's house, side by side, to be able to AB the 2.

As such, when I make one look superb one day, and another one look superb another day, there's no way to compare the 2. From my experience, after calibration I think the differences are going to be so slight that that is what it would take, to really know.


Sorry!


Mr Bob

PS - I actually believe that about all the major, most high-end CRT-based brands in the top rung. Take their IDing marks off by hiding all but the actual screen, get them all fully calibrated and on the same stage, and at the same ID brightness and contrast levels, and in a double-blind taste test I'm convinced you'd be VERY hard pressed to tell them apart.

Mr. Bob: do you think there's much difference in quality when it comes to calibrators? Is there one calibration job that you can remember that you did that seems to stand out above all others as your all time greatest?

Originally posted by Artwood
Mr. Bob: do you think there's much difference in quality when it comes to calibrators? Is there one calibration job that you can remember that you did that seems to stand out above all others as your all time greatest?


The calibrators I have met all retain one primary factor that keeps us apart from most regular people, DIYers or otherwise.

That is perfectionism. I have met one or 2 calibrators who have been lax about grammar and typos on these boards, and sometimes that extends to calling a CRT face a lens, and in other ways being just slightly misleading; but those were honest mistakes, simply details overlooked. Overall, most of the fellow calibrators I have met are simply guys who carry that perfectionism to incredibly great lengths in getting the best pic possible to their clients on location. We ALL get an incredibly perverse rush out of nailing our images!

As such, I think if you talk with your prospective calibrator and ask for fine points about what they in particular do and how they go about it, I think if you listen between the lines you'll find out real fast whether you're going to get a good job out of them or not. I think if someone has gained a rep on this board, or at the SPot, or at the HTF, you can probably trust them to do you a great job.


As far as cals go, probably my own set has been the most long-running challenge I have had yet, and has required the highest learning curve. But the proof is in the pudding, and I just can't stay away from sitting in front of it and drooling.

On one job down in Morgan Hill, I worked on an Electrohome Marquee ceiling pj, and that sucker was capable of taking 480i and making super-clean 1080p out of it! And all the info from his C band as well - everything but the HD, which is left alone on passthru, and also incredibly tweakable. Those huge 1080i and p images we finally came up with were without a doubt one of the high points!


Mr Bob

I haven't seen a Mr. Bob calibration, but Mr. Bob the poster rules! Thanks Mr. Bob!

To the post that was here before in this position while we were all celebrating New Year's, I would say this:

LCD and all the fixed pixel modalities will eventually take the place of CRT technology, and yes, will put ISF calibrators out of business - the business of correction and perfection of the image structure. But there will always be the grayscale and colorations aspects, which the non-ceiling pj manufacturers still show no sign of changing their universal manipulation of: away from industry standard and in favor of selling more sets of their particular brand. The expensive ceiling pjs have always refrained from such marketplace tactics, in favor of being and staying the leaders in the home cinema industry, in maintaining industry standards.

As such, who knows how long we will have to continue getting rid of the reddish and bluish whites that are continuously meant to result in making their sets "brighter" than the other guy's, in the Joe Sixpack market?

Agreed. Not having the image structure work to do on fixed pixel devices will indeed cut my work in half, when CRTs finally give up the ghost in favor of fixed pixel arrays. It will eventually put me out of business on doing that part of the work, but just that part of the work.

I would still take a finely calibrated 65" Hitachi CRT unit any day over any of the fixed pixel displays that are currently available and affordable as the evolution currently sits.

This is because the readily affordable ones are all at 720 resolution in today's marketplace.

When 1080i/p fixed pixel becomes commonplace and readily affordable, that is the time I will respect the pic as much as I currently do CRT. Till then, if I sat as close to today's fixed pixel displays as I sit to my current 65" Panny, I would see every pixel individually.

It would drive me crazy.

CRT for me, all the way.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by Artwood
I haven't seen a Mr. Bob calibration...


You can see my home 65" Panny as the front cover of my website, with a freezeframed HD pic on it, photo'd with a Canon 35mm analog camera. If you go inside the website, you can see an expanded version of it in the Screenshots section.

Just click on the Screenshots pic and it will zoom up for you, to show you greater detail. Feel free to explore all parts of it at your leisure.


Mr Bob

Hey Mr Bob,
I had to re-adjust my overscan to leave it at a little over 5%, Probably more like 6% now, Because it curved real bad at the lower left hand corner.

I am thinking about getting an overlay to adjust my geometry a little better, But I think I read earlier that you dont even bother using one? Since my overscan is about 6% and I think the overlay grids are set at 5% I was wondering if you think it may even be worth getting one.

Also was wondering if you usually adjust colors when you service a set, Since that would seem to be users preference.

Thanks again, I am learning alot here. Hopefully not screwing up my set to much messing with everything.;)

Originally posted by Parker Lewis
Hey Mr Bob,
I had to re-adjust my overscan to leave it at a little over 5%, Probably more like 6% now, Because it curved real bad at the lower left hand corner.

I am thinking about getting an overlay to adjust my geometry a little better, But I think I read earlier that you dont even bother using one? Since my overscan is about 6% and I think the overlay grids are set at 5% I was wondering if you think it may even be worth getting one.



No, you're right, I hate overlays - used one once years ago and immediately swore them off. You can have it cheap if you wish, it's the factory Philips for the 55" Marantz. I use strictly external info for sizing and placement, and external grids for convergence, unless I am forced to use internal ones. I use the internal ones for linearity settings at times, comparing the results to the outside material.

4-4.5% is the lowest overscan that RPTVs are usually capable of without massive, distracting fraying of the convergence at the edges. Even at 4-4.5% there is some fraying, but it is innocuous.

This is not so with ceiling pjs, but it is with RPTVs. If you have bowing/curving at 4-4.5%, you'll have to remedy that with the Hit convergence system, probably using the coarse settings rather than the fine ones, then go to the fine ones for trimup.


Also was wondering if you usually adjust colors when you service a set, Since that would seem to be users preference.


Oh, yes, colorations and grayscale are all a major part of the process. Fortunately, Hits are well equipped, and capable of perfectly linear color decoding on all scanrates.

What you do with your colorations after that is up to you, and in some cases you may not want to stick with calibrated color. Even tho my display is tits'd out on HD on all levels including colorations, and 99% of the HD I view never varies from that, on Leno I always goose the color intensity level up 5 clicks and the brightness down 5 clicks from the calibration standard. Then I set it back to normal again - midpoint on all user settings - after the show.

Thanks again, I am learning alot here. Hopefully not screwing up my set to much messing with everything.;)


Glad to help. Now hire me for your calibration, and I can afford to stay here plunking away at these keys for no pay!


Mr Bob

One more question for you Mr Bob,

Since I expanded my overscan, Now I am seeing "wave" like effect on the screen at times. Mainly when the camera will pan up slowly. Kind of like its the protective screen causing the effect.

Is this the protective screen, Or some other geometry problem?

Thanks.

Also am thinking about downsizing my overscan and trying to fix that corner in "coarse" mode like you said.:)

Wish I had the money to fly you in, But seeing as how I have 5 little mouths to feed it is kinda hard to afford.;)

Considering a local isf tech, His name is James K. Bell and he works for Video Troubleshooters, Inc. Have you ever heard of him??

I screwed up! I was trying to correct a slight geometry problem in the lower left corner by adjusting the green in DCAM. (I had the green CRT replaced a while back and the tech didn't do a great job of alignment.) Anyway, I over adjusted the green and just wanted to exit out of DCAM and start over. Somehow I saved the screwed up settings. Now when I press Magic Focus the screen displays STATIC MODE. How do I get out of this 'mode'? I found no way of saving the data. I searched this thread for answers but I still don't understand what this mode is for and how to get back to Magic Focus normal mode. I don't have a service manual either. Any help would be appreciated.

I wouldn't use the knobs on the circuit board to reduce overscan, just pull the lines in closer on the DCAM. You'll know when you hit the limit, as the lines will curve on the edges.

Use FREEZE to move the grid as a whole, or to move each line as a whole, so the lines are evenly spaced. Parker Lewis, your wave effect might be from the convergence lines not being parallel. I'm attaching a PDF file which shows the convergence jigs. You can tape string across the screen and converge to that. Of course, that will get you factory overscan.

WitDaGrin, I think you might need to start over in coarse 3x3 mode. See page 77 of the attached pdf.

Matt

Edit- Actually, WitDaGrin, I think you may just need to re-initialize the sensors. See step 11 on page 77.

http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB63&Number=639224
http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB63&Number=551276

Originally posted by Parker Lewis


Since I expanded my overscan, Now I am seeing "wave" like effect on the screen at times. Mainly when the camera will pan up slowly. Kind of like its the protective screen causing the effect.

Is this the protective screen, Or some other geometry problem?

Thanks.


Assuming that you are watching from dead square in front of your screen, sounds like what we call "speedbumps". Which is non-linearity of the point locations and/or grid sections - easy to do when you totally reform your original template, the green image of the center gun. No matter how well you do your convergence later, if you have not tits'd out the linearities of the green center image, you will have speedbumps on moving material, easiest to see on slowly moving credits at the ends of movies.

This is one reason I use circles whenever possible, as they show non-linearities of a type that is very valuable. But rectangle and square-box grids show other types of linearity/non-linearity that are also incredibly valuable, since all the rectangles or squares are supposed to be exactly the same size, all across the screen. Often we see that the top and/or bottom rows of boxes are taller than the ones adjoining them - same for the side columns of boxes - which is a definite non-linearity that needs to be corrected.

This is all very readily self-evident to me by eye, when watching circles - as in the AVIA Circlehatch Grid - or boxes all across the screen, as in the HD patterns from my Accupel HD pattern generator, and most internally generated patterns. But not everybody can see these things as readily as I do, after all the years I have been doing this.

I'd follow the great advice from Bigrig, above.


Wish I had the money to fly you in, But seeing as how I have 5 little mouths to feed it is kinda hard to afford.;)


Whoa! I don't have any kids - that I know of... - so I really can't even fathom what that must be like! But it you put a calibration tour together with me as the calibrator, your travel expenses get cut in half, then in thirds, etc, with each new person who joins up till they are no more expensive than the locals pay me to come over for their cals, around here in the Bay Area.

Considering a local isf tech, His name is James K. Bell and he works for Video Troubleshooters, Inc. Have you ever heard of him??


Sorry, haven't had the pleasure.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by bigrig
Use FREEZE to move the grid as a whole, or to move each line as a whole, so the lines are evenly spaced.


Correct me if I am wrong, but from my experience, the FREEZE command ONLY moves the entire pic around of the individual colors, NOT individual lines. It is for exactly pinpointing your centers on top of each other of each of the 3 images, which also tranlates into resetting your static crosshair user mode to perfect.

The Panasonic does have the capacity to move entire lines, but to my knowledge the Hitachi does not.

If there IS a way to do so, tho, with just the lines - which translates into moving rows/columns of points all at the same time - I am all ears!


Mr Bob

Originally posted by Mr Bob
Correct me if I am wrong, but from my experience, the FREEZE command ONLY moves the entire pic around of the individual colors, NOT individual lines. It is for exactly pinpointing your centers on top of each other of each of the 3 images, which also tranlates into resetting your static crosshair user mode to perfect.

The Panasonic does have the capacity to move entire lines, but to my knowledge the Hitachi does not.

If there IS a way to do so, tho, with just the lines - which translates into moving rows/columns of points all at the same time - I am all ears!


Yeah, when you first hit FREEZE and the cursor is in the center, you can move the entire grid. But then when you move the cursor to a different point, you can move the entire line up/down or left/right.

So to reduce overscan, I just selected each line and moved them inwards a couple clicks. And then a little fine tuning afterwards to correct linearity.

Matt

PS - and when I say "entire grid" and "entire line", this is one color at a time. So to move the entire line, you would have to shift the Green, Red, and Blue line.

Kewl!!! Can't wait to try this out!


Mr Bob

WOW, That is cool moving them one at a time like that. Wonder why I have never heard of being able to do this before??:confused:

Oh well, So I re-aligned the green to reduce the "wave" effect, And now I am just wondering how far apart these grids are supposed to be? I have no idea where to place them for the best pic.

Should I set them back to factory default and work from there?

Now the speed bump is MORE noticable then ever. I dont know what I am doing wrong!:(

Update: Okay, I broke out with the tape measure to evenly space the lines on the convergence grid. I am thinking this should work.....Wish me luck!:D

Still have a "sped bump". Now its just moved up toward the top of the screen.

Jeez this is annoying.:mad: Is there any way possible to reset the geometry back to factory specs? Maybe somewhere in the "service menu"?

Does anyone know what the measurements should be on the grid on a 51"?

Look in that attachment I posted, it has the measurements.

Originally posted by Parker Lewis
[B]Still have a "sped bump". Now its just moved up toward the top of the screen.

Try the AVIA 50IRE Letterbox Enhanced Circlehatch grid, after turning on the Repeat Pattern feature. Relative spacings are very apparent when using circles.


Jeez this is annoying.:mad: Is there any way possible to reset the geometry back to factory specs? Maybe somewhere in the "service menu"?

Sorry, don't think so.


Mr Bob

I am new to HDTV and am considering the Hitachi based on the good reviews I have seen in this forum. One of the local retailers in my small town (pop. 25,000) has the 57S500 and 57T500 in stock and occasionally have double coupon sales ($400 of MSRP). I pulled the spec sheets off of the Hitachi website to compare with the newer 57F510. One difference I noticed was the 57F510 has an HDMI connection while the other two have DVI connections.

I would have to travel 90 miles to a larger city to get the 57F510 and pay at least $200 more than I would for the 57T500 or 57S500.

I am a little more impressed with the features on the 57T500, but is it worth the extra money for the HDMI? Looking for a little advice.

thanks,
ag

Also consider the t500/s500 has a better lens system than the f510 (5 element vs 4 element). hdmi will matter if you have a device with hdmi outputs, it's just another connection method(meant to outdate previous equipment no doubt).

Anyone know what sm/isf menu tweaks might affect dvi in only (while not affecting the componentconnection on the same input) on the s500 series. I have a motorola 6208 hooked up to component and dvi and the detail is really lacking on dvi , component looks awesome...far more detail. This could be an issue with the component output stage on the mot box...unsure. I need to use the dvi in (jvc 40000 being added,,,uses component). Other options are a component switch, new receiver or dvi dvd player.

Originally posted by blacksmith_aggie
I am a little more impressed with the features on the 57T500, but is it worth the extra money for the HDMI? Looking for a little advice.

thanks,
ag

HDMI is just DVI combined with digital audio. I don't know about you, but I don't want to send the digital audio to my TV, I'm hooking it up to my receiver. If you have a device with HDMI you can get a HDMI-DVI adapter cable.

Matt

Originally posted by WitDaGrin
I screwed up! I was trying to correct a slight geometry problem in the lower left corner by adjusting the green in DCAM. (I had the green CRT replaced a while back and the tech didn't do a great job of alignment.) Anyway, I over adjusted the green and just wanted to exit out of DCAM and start over. Somehow I saved the screwed up settings. Now when I press Magic Focus the screen displays STATIC MODE. How do I get out of this 'mode'? I found no way of saving the data. I searched this thread for answers but I still don't understand what this mode is for and how to get back to Magic Focus normal mode. I don't have a service manual either. Any help would be appreciated.

I fixed the STATIC MODE problem. I just had to push the little blue button beside the size trim pots on the circuit board behind the front access board. I was then able to save the new parameters and then do the Magic Focus initialization.

Thanks bigrig!

Thanks bigrig!

You're welcome!! :D

Paul and Big,

Thanks for the replies. Had to work today and just now got to check for help on my post. I cannot seem to find any sales person that can answer my questions. One says the CRT's in the F510 are superior to those in the T500 and another said the HDMI is an absolute must. Hard to trust those guys!

ag

Oh, definitely. Never trust salespeople! Strange ones, at least. ;)

Originally posted by Paul Clancy
Anyone know what sm/isf menu tweaks might affect dvi in only (while not affecting the componentconnection on the same input) on the s500 series. I have a motorola 6208 hooked up to component and dvi and the detail is really lacking on dvi , component looks awesome...far more detail. This could be an issue with the component output stage on the mot box...unsure. I need to use the dvi in (jvc 40000 being added,,,uses component). Other options are a component switch, new receiver or dvi dvd player.


I also am curious about this. I just plunked out $1350 for the new DVI and remocon-equipped Accupel HDG 3000, just to have DVI for calibration purposes.

Anyone want to make me an offer on my non-DVI-D equipped Accupel HDG 2000? Mint condition, well treated, and incredibly valuable for any calibration not involving DVI. Has the BNC -> RCA adapters for component and RGB OP. Both component and RGB HD OPs are covered, on 720p and 1080i. Has all the patterns you'll ever need for grayscale, geometry/convergence, color/tint and pic sharpness, and is especially useful for getting rid of your red push by allowing full and complete realignment of your HD color decoder to absolutely linear!

Also has the specially built (by Gregg Loewen, an excellent East Coast calibrator who has the exclusive on the HTF) 5 button wired remote control box with 25' connecting cable, all in professional videophile/calibrator grade quality. It has served me well on every HD calibration I have done since I bought it new at Xmastime a couple of years ago. (It was the ONLY way short of the much more expensive Sencore stuff that I was going to have the patterns necessary for realignment of the color decoder on location, and has been responsible for making many Hitachi owners very very happy!) Designed by Greg Rogers, who writes for Widescreen Review and along with his partner in crime at Accupel (in Tualatin OR) spent 26 years at Tektronix - where I worked many years ago as well for a brief time - before going out on his own. Among other things - like the saying on the wall where I worked: "Epoxy can be cured!" - he had access to studying Tek's awesome chipmaking facilities - silkscreening, formatting, masking, clean rooms etc. They - Greg and his partner - designed and use their own proprietary ICs inside (monsters both of them, huge!). Has everything you'll need for HD.


I have now calibrated 3 sets that use DVI for their input, and even tho I have not calibrated that DVI input per se because I didn't have the new Accupel till THIS Xmas (the structure is not what DVI needs cal'd anyway, it's the grayscale and colorations aspects only) after viewing the structure of the DVI pic, it has universally struck both my client and myself on each and every occurrence that component is the better looking pic than the DVI pic, and in each case the DVI pic has been left behind. This allowed at least one client to return the $100 DVI cable he had bought.

In the case of a 34" DV Sony HDready in New Jersey, some scenes had deathly distracting graininess on the DVI input, and NOT on the component input. In those particular scenes - which occurred maybe every 10 or 20 minutes at times and not at all at other times - the graininess was incredible, and distracting as all get out!

These have been CRT sets, tho, so far, one of which was a current year Hitachi. Have not had the pleasure with calibrating a fixed pixel device yet, for comparison.

But for the purposes of this thread, I would say not to get heavily invested in the DVI signal input upgrade on CRT based devices. I think I will continue to keep finding that the component input will continue to outperform the DVI input for image structure, on CRT based devices. Since my year 2000 Panny CRT 65" has only component inputs for HD and still delivers 720p native, I still consider it toppest of the top flight, and am not seeking to replace it anytime soon, if ever. There is a depth perception possible on CRT devices that is unbelieveable still, when kept fully calibrated. And professionally cleaned once a year. And, of course, down to the CRT coolant covers beneath the lenses whenever necessary.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by Mr Bob
[B]
Anyone want to make me an offer on my non-DVI equipped Accupel HDG 2000?


Oh, and it will contain as well an adapter to allow the RGB circuits to go to any DVI analog - which is just dressed up RGB anyway.

The only HD it will not do is DVI digital.

I just corrected this in the post above.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by s4shawn
Anyone had some color issues? I've had my 57S700 for a few weeks now...I notice it most on hockey...the white rink I keep getting flashes of red. This happens on all inputs, inlcuding PS2 hockey. I also see it on some people's faces if the scene is light enough. Sears repair guy already came out and cleaned something from inside on the screen...adjusted the contrast a bit and problem 'seemed' to go away...but noticed it again last night. Any suggestions?

I'm having this same problem on my Hitachi 51s500 (which convieniently is 1 year and 3 months old so out of waranty). I'm wondering if it is a faulty crt, and if so, how much is that going to cost me to fix. Any ideas?

Originally posted by ntode
I'm having this same problem on my Hitachi 51s500 (which convieniently is 1 year and 3 months old so out of waranty). I'm wondering if it is a faulty crt, and if so, how much is that going to cost me to fix. Any ideas?

My set had the same problem when it was only 3 months old but with green flashes. .The solution was to replace the green CRT. Sometimes my set was also very green looking when the set was first turned on. The best way I was able to see the flashes was by turning off all the lights in the room and selecting an input on the set which had no connection. The display was supposed to be pure black but I could easily see it getting darker and lighter and changing in colour.

I did some research when I was having the problem and other people were saying that they had the CRT focus block replaced WITHOUT success. Their solution was also to replace the affected CRT.

Originally posted by WitDaGrin
My set had the same problem when it was only 3 months old but with green flashes. .The solution was to replace the green CRT. Sometimes my set was also very green looking when the set was first turned on. The best way I was able to see the flashes was by turning off all the lights in the room and selecting an input on the set which had no connection. The display was supposed to be pure black but I could easily see it getting darker and lighter and changing in colour.

I did some research when I was having the problem and other people were saying that they had the CRT focus block replaced WITHOUT success. Their solution was also to replace the affected CRT.


As a service repair tech, I have an instrument called the Beltron, which was designed many years ago to save CRTs with problems like this. Intermittent flashes like this CAN be caused by buildups on the inner metal parts, that eventually come too close together because of the buildup and cause arcs. This instrment goes in there and burns off all those deposits. You can sometimes actually see sparkles thru the glass of the CRT neck as they get vaporized.

I had a 35" Mit being flooded with green, and it shut completely down during the op. But I persisted, and after the op was completed it worked perfectly from then on. Never heard from that customer again, so I guess there were no further problems. Pic cleans up if it is an RPTV, flooding the screen with the weak color afterwards.

This unit is no longer made, and you'll have to ask around to see if any shops have it.

However, Sencore makes something that does the same thing, and you might ask around about that as well. Sencore, of course, is well known among calibrators and service repair techs alike as making some of the finest calibration and test equipment out there.


Mr Bob

Hi all... I posted this outside of this thread earlier today and wanted to get more visibility in here as well.....

I have a strange issue I am trying to troubleshoot. I currently own a Hitachi S500 and love the TV. There is one thing that has bugged me for a while, which I am trying to fix.

On any HD content, I get what I think is called a "Horizontal Streaking" effect from the left of the screen all the way to the right when any bright object comes into or out of the picture from the left. This horizontal streak is like a dark horizontal band that streaks from the left all the way to the right for just a few seconds and then is gone.

For example, yesterday watching the NFL Playoff games in HD, during the games when the bright orange yardage marker came into the picture from the left, I would get this "streak" all the way to the right of the screen for a few seconds and then it was fine. Same thing, as the camera pans to the side again, and now the yard marker is going off the left side of the pic, another quick streak.

Any thoughts? I have spent hours trying different cables (DVI and Component), different settings from my STB (Native, 1080i, 720P etc). and of course made sure that my User Settings etc. are all within reasonable levels (Contrast at 28, Brightness at 50).

I now almost think it might be due to internal reflections in the cabinet, but I just don't know.....

Any ideas?

Thanks
MK

No this is not internal reflections.

I had the same thing on my year 2000 65" Panny, and when I bought it a year old as a closeout they had already come up with a fix for it. It required replacing one cap on each CRT board with a replacement cap that had 100 times more capacitance to it. Same voltage, just more capacitance. Evidently what was showing was capacitance starvation. Similar to bit starvation on pixellization, I suppose.

Have no idea if Hitachi has any fix like that, or whether it would be the same cap in the circuit or another cap somewhere very far away.

But it is curable. I take it it is there only when these types of material are there, and does not linger afterwards? (If so, then we're back at square one, as mine was only there during that kind of material.) In The Mummy, it was the torches in the depths, against the ultra-black background of the caves.


Mr Bob

Hey Bob, thanks for the quick response. Yes, it is only present with material in HD that shows bright objects that come or go to the left side of the screen. Football is typically where I see it with either brightly colored helments or the yardage markers... I have even seen it with the goal posts as they pass in and out of the picture on the left.

I am glad that the internal reflections are ruled out. Unfortunatly when I had the Circuit City guy out last week, he was clueless... and it didn't help that for the 5 or so minutes that he was at the house, the problem never occured.

Even stranger, I don't see it on DVD or SD sources.

Originally posted by kruegs


Even stranger, I don't see it on DVD or SD sources.


So it is not what my RPTV had, because on mine it was there on everything.

The HD circuitry is completely different and separate from all other circuitry, so the problem must be in their design of that circuitry.

I would contact Hitachi on this - see if it is just your unit, or if it is a design flaw. If I had not heard about this thru a Panny email message board, I would have just put up with it. When I contacted Panny, I found that not only was there a bulletin out on this problem, but on an S video problem as well! Of course they should mail out any and all bulletins of this nature during the first year manufacturer's warranty period, just like cars get recalled. But that ain't gonna happen in this lifetime! You gotta fight for - and know/find out about - every scrap of coverage you're gonna get, from manufacturers.

One way or the other, things like that should not be happening on your HD.


Mr Bob

Originally posted by kruegs
Hey Bob, thanks for the quick response. Yes, it is only present with material in HD that shows bright objects that come or go to the left side of the screen. Football is typically where I see it with either brightly colored helments or the yardage markers... I have even seen it with the goal posts as they pass in and out of the picture on the left.

I am glad that the internal reflections are ruled out. Unfortunatly when I had the Circuit City guy out last week, he was clueless... and it didn't help that for the 5 or so minutes that he was at the house, the problem never occured.

Even stranger, I don't see it on DVD or SD sources.
One of MANY reasons I will never buy an extended warranty. Most of the time the customer knows more then the so called "tech" they send out.

Sad really.:(

Originally posted by Parker Lewis
One of MANY reasons I will never buy an extended warranty. Most of the time the customer knows more then the so called "tech" they send out.

Sad really.:(


I would not agree with the part about not ever going with ESPs. The techs they send out are usually very competent on repairs, tho I would not trust them as far as I could throw them on calibration aspects.

Just today I went on a calibration to find that my client's Toshiba is missing its Pr reds on HD and on 480p, but NOT on 480i! All of those scanrates are coming in via component at his RPTV, and when we toggle his Tosh DVDP between i and p on the same component IP of the RPTV, the reds disappear on 480p and reappear on 480i. Kinda rules out the Pr line being bad, on his component OPs, tho I had checked for that earlier anyway, and it was found to be good...

Poor guy's been suffering with this for a long time, thinking that was the best pic possible on the HD box he had bought, and went thru several of, thinking that was the problem. It wasn't till I toggled the i and p at the DVDP that we were sure it was even in the TV. The DVD component ins appeared to work fine, the HD not, all on both component IPs and on both component patchcords, all of which I swapped around between the DVDP and the STB. I was convinced it was the box that was at fault as well, as Wayne had assured me his DVDP was in 480p. Found out that the reason it had been providing all colors so faithfully via component was that indeed it was NOT in p, but in i!


His unit is 3 years old, and he still has extended warranty on it. So he's going to get it serviced on this repair problem, before we continue with any more calibration. For today, we just did the 480i for now.

Another client in Texas on one of my calibration tours there a few years ago had a problem with his Tosh - we spent 8 hours tweaking away at it, and it was beginning to look really beautiful. Then we took it out of service mode by turning it off, same way I have done on countless other Tosh's, and went to dinner. When we came back, we went to turn it on again, and it would not go on. We tried all night, and the next morning as well, but no go.

Since he had been planning on getting an extended service plan anyway, he paid me a partial sum - nowhere near what I had been supposed to make on that calibration, and it really didn't take care of the 8 hours I spent, but what can you do? - and signed up for the ESP. I went ahead with the other cals on that trip, and a few weeks later he had a tech over to look at it, and I never saw him or his TV again. When I heard from him again later, he said the problem had turned out to be really serious and it had taken months to finally get it fixed and have his home theater going again.

Not the first time I have heard such a horror story about a Tosh, BTW. If you have a Tosh go down, you might have to look forward to being without it for quite awhile.

(Have NOT heard such things about Hitachis!)


Mr Bob

Extended warranty is a good idea specifically because there are bad techs (not all but some). The mass produced quality of the sets are low with all brands. The techs have 3 chances to fix a set under most EWs then the EW company must replace the set (check the fine print before you buy an EW for this provision). An rptv is one of the only devices I'd recommend EW (notebook computers as well). BTW I don't sell these and there are certainly good and bad EWs...you need to read before you buy.

Originally posted by Mr Bob
Intermittent flashes like this CAN be caused by buildups on the inner metal parts, that eventually come too close together because of the buildup and cause arcs. This instrment goes in there and burns off all those deposits. You can sometimes actually see sparkles thru the glass of the CRT neck as they get vaporized.


Can you tell me what the Buildups are made up of? is it dust or something?

Not a clue. Think of tarnished silver, tho that would not be thick enough...

Originally posted by ntode
Can you tell me what the Buildups are made up of? is it dust or something?

The buildups from the arcs is like the buildup from the arcs in an air ionizer that has to be occasionally cleaned. So, basically dust particles move between the two conductors and arc, and the dust particle gets zapped. (I guess)

Found this thread and I just wanted to say how glad I am to find others out there who have the same line of TV.

Picked this TV up a while back for $1700.00 a Conns, love this thing...

Fan question. If you're not using the built-in HD tuner, can you just disconnect the fan, or will something overheat?

Thanks,
PolkThug

Originally posted by PolkThug
Fan question. If you're not using the built-in HD tuner, can you just disconnect the fan, or will something overheat?

Thanks,
PolkThug


Heh...I was just wondering about that the other day. That fan noise sure is annoying!! :mad:

Try it out and let us know what happens. :cool: The S500 doesn't have a fan, so I would think it would be okay if you don't use the tuner.

Matt

I haven't took it apart yet, but I'm curious if the tuner generates heat even when the input is not selected.

I've had my TV for a year and a half now, and it really hasn't bothered me that much, but lately I've been swapping out cables and playing around with room treatments and noticed that this is a little piece of the noise floor I want to get rid of.

Since I'm on Time Warner, all of the local HD is piped to me so I have no use for the tuner.

Regards,
PolkThug

Originally posted by PolkThug
I haven't took it apart yet, but I'm curious if the tuner generates heat even when the input is not selected.

I've had my TV for a year and a half now, and it really hasn't bothered me that much, but lately I've been swapping out cables and playing around with room treatments and noticed that this is a little piece of the noise floor I want to get rid of.

Since I'm on Time Warner, all of the local HD is piped to me so I have no use for the tuner.

Regards,
PolkThug

I would not assume the tuner is powered off whenever it is not being used. When you select it - every time to go to another input and come back to it - does it come on immediately or does it take a few seconds? If it comes on immediately, I would have to assume it stays on at all times, waiting to be selected up.

Tuners don't by nature create much heat, but they may have installed the fan in the tuner-equipped set just because having it added to the circuit pushed the power supply just enough more that it generated just a little more heat, pushing it over the edge of safe expectations, and they felt that they now needed a fan. Who knows how hot some of their customers will be keeping their viewing rooms, and in what parts of the country? They have to allow for all sorts of contingency factors when they design these things.

As the white preacher said to the black sheriff, Cleavon Little, in Blazing Saddles when all else had failed, in front of all the white townspeople - "Yer on yer own... " After which, of course, Mel Brooks came up with a rather "unique" solution for the black sheriff...

Disco'ing the tuner's power from the power supply would take that last little bit of load off the power supply section. But then they may have undersized that power supply compared to the other one just because they have a fan in it now, and as such don't need to worry as much heat dissapation from convection.

If you decide to disco the tuner and its fan, gee. Let us know what happens.

Quoting another famous movie character: "Do you feel lucky?"


Mr Bob

It's funny. I have been away from the board for at least 6 months.

I go to check the 51s700 thread to see if the fan issue is resolved. Thread is 1220 posts long.

By coincidence the last 4 posts are about the fan problem.

Unfortunately fan problem not resolved.

Damn, Damn, Damn.

I am like PolkThug I'd love to get rid of that last piece of the noise floor. I really noticed it again the other night. I had the sound turned all the way down. Then turned off the television. It was amazing how much more quiet the room was after turning off the set.

I wonder if there is a whisper-quiet version of that fan that could be installed instead. Same voltage, same size, same attachment leg/screw pinout, just quieter?...

Old discussion on the Fan Noise -
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3382664#post3382664
from this post to post #376. Apparently placing the fan vertical reduced the noise.

http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=341008
injaneer reports removing the brown/black wires kills the tuner, fan and speakers.

I need to look into this again. I've got some duvetyne I've been wanting to install, that would be a good opportunity.

Matt

A couple of alternative 40x40x10mm 5V fans:

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/a-p/40mm5vdcfan.html

http://www.buyextras.com/40mmdc5vfans.html

Here is a question for the group.

I am thinking of getting a Network Interface to get my MP3's to my home stereo. I have been looking at the Roku Photobridge. The photo bridge plays music and allows you to view your digital pictures on you television.

I'd like to have a scene like an "Aquarium" playing on the television while listening to music. The Hitachi has a multi card reader. I could upload my images to the media card and play the "Aquarium" on the television

Can we use the card reader device on the Hitachi to do this?

Are there HiDef images that we can download?

I would appreciate some advice from any of you knowledgeable folks; you really seem to know your tvs! I am torn between buying the Hit-46f500 @$1079 or the tosh-46h84 @$1049. An outside possibility would be the hit-51s500 @$1599. Thank you for any insights you would be willing to offer!

AV

Originally posted by alton britt
I would appreciate some advice from any of you knowledgeable folks; you really seem to know your tvs! I am torn between buying the Hit-46f500 @$1079 or the tosh-46h84 @$1049. An outside possibility would be the hit-51s500 @$1599. Thank you for any insights you would be willing to offer!

AV


For my money, Hitachi is the better set. I have calibrated many of both Tosh and Hit, and while the Hit takes more work, it also presents the better pic. It does better on the resolution patterns, indicating the abilbity to achieve higher frequencies successfully, resulting in its tighter horizontal scanning, and can be completely linearized as far as color decoder response.

The Tosh has no color decoder registers - has not had them since the Designer Mode, which was eliminated many years ago. Also, to do anything more than grayscale and image sturcture - g and c - it requires that your calibrator be equipped with the code to their deeper SM registers - like master color and tint for the various scanrates - which is very hard to come by. Of course, Tosh's are not usually equipped with red push from the factory, either, as the Hitachis are. But fully calibrated, colorations on the Hitachis just seem to be more vivid than on the Tosh's.


As far as size goes, bigger is better, as well. Many who have bought smaller have regretted it and stepped up to larger at their earliest opportunity.

Bigger is best when fully calibrated, of course. Means you can sit lots closer to it, and be able to see a bigger pic as a result.

Are you considering smaller because of room area, or because of how far away you will be sitting?

I sit 8' from my 65" Panny and am in heaven. For either of those units mentioned, I would want to be able to sit a lot closer and still be in heaven.


Mr Bob

Mr. Bob-Thanks for the reply! I'm restricted to a corner with a fireplace on one side and a picture window on the other. Also, I have to have either a table-model style set such as the 46" hitachi and toshiba so I can have it on a stand which will hold all my home theater components or a 51" set with a deep top such as the 51" hitachi where I can perhaps doublestack my components. There's quite abit of money difference in the 46s and the 51. My viewing range is from 9-14 ft in my den. Plus, if I go with either of the 46s, I can get an additional 10% off tomorrow only.

51 inches is usually the smallest size you can go in a rear projection CRT and get good lenses--they economize on smaller sizes. I think the Hitachi 51 would be your best bet but you might also consider a Mitsubishi 48515.

I would agree with Bob. I have calibrated all model CRT PRTVs within the last few years and the Hitachi has a great deal of control/flexibility, meaning you can dial in the color decoder and grayscale for multiple inputs very easily. You can do this for a couple inputs on a few displays, but that is it. Gamma is horrid on some, but can be dialed in nicely on the Hitachi. The F500 is very poor out of box, but can be dialed in nicely wiht equipment.

Bill

How difficult is it to calibrate a Hitachi 65S700??

Or better yet, should I have someone calibrate it?

Originally posted by Darren_E
How difficult is it to calibrate a Hitachi 65S700??

Or better yet, should I have someone calibrate it?
That all depends if you know what you're doing, if you have access to the appropriate tools, and if you have the patience.

Originally posted by Darren_E
How difficult is it to calibrate a Hitachi 65S700??

Or better yet, should I have someone calibrate it?

A good place to start is with the basics such as the Sound & Vision Home Theater Tune Up disc.

I'm considering getting the hitachi 51s500 set. If any of you have any experience or advice/opinions on this unit, I'd really be appreciatve of your response!

Thanks!!!

I think we're all pretty happy with our S500/S700s. Go for it!

Read the "Tweaks" thread for some good tips on how to improve the picture: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=273639

Matt

Get the 57!

Hello,

Thinking of removing the screen protector on my 51S700. I have completely read the F500 removal thread.

Before I get started where are the Magic Focus sensor located on the S700?

Also what should I use as a spacer for the fresnel?

Thanks

Walt

Originally posted by waltj2k
Hello,

Thinking of removing the screen protector on my 51S700. I have completely read the F500 removal thread.

Before I get started where are the Magic Focus sensor located on the S700?

Also what should I use as a spacer for the fresnel?

Thanks

Walt


On all sets that have such automated convergence circuitry that I have seen - Sony, Toshiba, Hitachi and Samsung - there are sensors at the middle of all 4 edges and at all 4 corners as well. They are hardwired around the screen edge, and ideally they - and whatever else is hardwired to the screen - will unplug from the rest of the set to allow complete removal of the screen.

The best spacer I know of for this purpose is to take a matchbook - not matchbox, matchBOOK - and remove the staple and the outer printed cardboard jacket of the matchbook, leaving just the matches. Then tear off all the matches, and use what is left - the stump from all the matches being torn off it. It'll be about half an inch wide and 1-2" long, with just the right thickness for this purpose.

This will usually fit just right, virtually without revealing its presence.


Mr Bob

Mr. Bob: How much brightness do you give up when going from a 51 to a 57 to a 65 inch Hitachi S700? I've always thought bigger was better but some people tell me that the 57 is a little bit brighter--which one would you recommend if you were going to calibrate either?

Originally posted by Artwood
Mr. Bob: How much brightness do you give up when going from a 51 to a 57 to a 65 inch Hitachi S700? I've always thought bigger was better but some people tell me that the 57 is a little bit brighter--which one would you recommend if you were going to calibrate either?


I would never make the relative brightness the determining factor.

Controlling room light level is the key to making CRT units the best they can be. Yes, if all 3 use 7" guns there will be minor differences in brightness - the difference between a 51" and a 57" would be about 6/57ths. The difference between a 57 and a 65 would be about 8/65ths. Or using the lower for the denominator rather than the upper, don't really know which to use.

But the differences are so minor as to be inconsequential.

Buy the biggest one you can possibly fit into your viewing space, and then get it superbly calibrated so you can sit as close as possible, to get that awe-inspiring fully tightly woven, fully color correct BIG picture. Isn't that what a bigscreen is all about?

As I have said many times, my website pic was shot at 6' and I sit 8' back from my 65" Panny for viewing and love it. I would not want to sit any farther back, tho there are formulas out there that say I should.

I say, "Why should I?"

If I can get it so good that I can sit that close comfortably and have it be so crisp and sharp and meticulously woven that I can can sit there and study the grain of the film they used to shoot an episode of CSI, or Alias, or The Agency - why on Earth would I want to sit any farther back???

Get the biggest one you can.


Mr Bob

I'm looking at a hit 51s700 new in box for $1529 plus tax. Would appreciate any and all opinions, advice, recommendations, etc.!

Originally posted by alton britt
I'm looking at a hit 51s700 new in box for $1529 plus tax. Would appreciate any and all opinions, advice, recommendations, etc.!

If you're gonna use an external tuner, I'd go with the S500. The 700 has a fan on the tuner, kinda makes an annoying noise.

Matt

I am getting ready to pull the trigger on either a tosh 51h94 or a hit 51s715.

While looking up prices, I ran across some new 51s700's and a couple of 51s710's.

I can buy the 51s710 new for $1549 with free shipping, which is a couple of hundred cheaper than the 715. But I can find no specs/details on the 51s710.

I am guessing it had a very short production run in between the s700 and the s715.

Can anyone fill me in on the s710? Particularly, the screen...I have compared the s715 in stores to many others and I think it's screen picks up less glare and reflections than other CRT's.

You sure it's S710? Check out the comparison chart on page 6 here -
http://www.hitachi.us/tv/resource/prod_bro/pdf/CRT_BROCHURE.pdf

Only S715, F710, F510 are listed.

Matt

Edit - See here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4101030#post4101030

What happened to the Gxxx and Txxx series? Did they do away with the anti-reflective screens?

Matt

I found the S710 at more than one online store.

One of them is BrandNamez.com.

I think it was a typo. I think they meant f710.

The 51F710 is the same as the 51S715 except for the following.
does not have the roll n click programable 6 device remote control
the audio system is 24 watts vs 40 watts for the s715
the 51S715 has a black bezel around the screen, the f710 is all silver
Thats the only three things i can see thats different.