CRMA/MM Superplex Formula [Text View]

MississippiMan

12-17-03, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by Richum
Please I have question about step D.

D. Minimum of 2 Sprayed Top Coats, using Goo CRT White or
equivalent. Forget any additional Grey of any type.

I take this to mean the top coats will be applied over the previous coats of SM and Grey Primer not the unpainted front of the acrylic sheet.

I have small sheet 2' x 2' of acrylic sheet, some left over SM, white, kilz2, spray equipment etc.. may give this a prototype test. Just want to be sure I have it right.

Thanks

Nope. You only apply Top Coat to Silver when using a Wall or solid board

Heres the order.

Sray at least two coats of SM on one side, then follow up with a coating of the closely matching Grey primer on top of the Silver metallic. This greatly assists the SM in doing it's job, and negates the need to use even more SM.

Reverse the sheet and apply the Top coat to the oppisite side.

There should be the Back coat of SM, a sandwich of Plexi, and a top coat on the , well...., the top.

Be sure to set you gun to max fluid release, and at as high a pressure as possible. (60Lbs max.) Both paints are very thick. If your gun has a filter inside the delivery tube, expect to have to stop and rinse it a couple times or so during each coating. And strain the paint to remove any coagulated clumps.

I personally would remove the filter if you strain the paints, at least for the first coat.

Lastly, if you don't have a separate Regulator/Water filter in line, I'd get & use one before attempting any large project. And drain the air tank, under pressure, via it's shuttlecock valve to purge any existing water and rust residue.

All precautions help when spraying. Leave the "Fish Eyes" to the ones on CMRA's posts.:D

fkong777

12-17-03, 10:36 AM

Like this?

TC=top coat
SM=Silver Metallic
GP=Grey Primer
>=Direction of light

PJ>>Light >> TC1>TC2>(>>1/8" Plexi<<)<SM1<SM2< GP

Trepidati0n

12-17-03, 10:46 AM

I have attached a figure of what I believe is the layering structure..is this correct. And feel free to add this figure to the document if it is correct. Picutres truely do say a thousand words...

-tReP

Joe Przybylski

12-17-03, 11:03 AM

Thanks to the help of some very resourceful forum members (fkong777) I found in inexpensive ($55) piece of acrylic glass in the size I needed.

Problem is, the thinnest size available is 3/16". MississippiMan or CMRA, do you think this will be a problem?

Thanks alot everyone, for your help...
Joe

CMRA

12-17-03, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by Joe Przybylski
Thanks to the help of some very resourceful forum members (fkong777) I found in inexpensive ($55) piece of acrylic glass in the size I needed.

Problem is, the thinnest size available is 3/16". MississippiMan or CMRA, do you think this will be a problem?

Thanks alot everyone, for your help...
Joe

Not at all. I have tested 3/16" also. For everyone's benefit please post the details ie, size, where to buy or order, etc. BTW, 3/32" also works well. 1/8" is not written in stone.

Joe Przybylski

12-17-03, 12:50 PM

Thanks, CMRA! I look forward to ordering and trying this out.

By the way, I have a Wagner PowerSprayer -- should I use this? Or should I just get myself a top-feed Gravity sprayer (I'm a little money-challenged right now, with the holidays). But if that's the way to go, I'd be willing to try... I want the best screen I can get.

One other question: this is the "M.U.P." or, the Mess-up Factor. Since, very rarely, do you get the perfect screen on the first try -- and since this plexiglass is kindof hard to come by, any tips for experimentation, before up-and-spraying this paint onto a $100 piece of material?

Also, MississippiMan has told me to attach the Plexiglass onto any "substrate" I think were the words, but attach with what? I'm sort-of confused with this.

I only want specific methods due to a problem I had "attaching" parkland plastics to drywall. It was alot harder than I thought and ended up costing me alot of money "making mistakes" until I found the right adhesion method.

Again, thanks for all your hard work and tests: this sounds truly amazing, and can't wait to try it.

Oh, and -- I have a Panasonic PT_L300U projector, which is 800 Lumens and 800 contrast ratio -- I think this projector should perform well with this screen since it's very comparable to your Z1! Yahoo!

Richum

12-17-03, 01:45 PM

Thanks to all who took the time to answer my question. It happens that I have done a bit of technical writing and believe me it is best to not assume any thing when detailing a process.

For example, when I paint my house the last coat is known as the the top coat I suppose the same as the last piece of clothing one puts on in the winter.

Gonna give it a shot. I would only add one thing to MM excellent advice on spraying the paint, stir very well then strain and stir again.

Omzig

12-17-03, 01:55 PM

Is there anything special about using the Goo topcoat instead of using the white mixture listed in the pdf document?

I'm asking because I have some various white paints laying around from other projects that could be inexpensively supplemented to create the white topcoat listed as an alternative.

CMRA

12-17-03, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by Joe Przybylski
Thanks, CMRA! I look forward to ordering and trying this out.

By the way, I have a Wagner PowerSprayer -- should I use this? Or should I just get myself a top-feed Gravity sprayer (I'm a little money-challenged right now, with the holidays). But if that's the way to go, I'd be willing to try... I want the best screen I can get.

Yahoo!

Not no, but hell no. Save that for painting the picket fence the neighborhood dog pisses on. Assuming you have a good air compressor, you can order a high quality gravity feed HVLP gun from Harbor Freight for around $40.00(on sale). HVLP have much lower over spray and some shoot latex too.

Trepidati0n

12-17-03, 02:28 PM

CMRA:

Is this (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=43430) the type of spray gun you are talking about.

-tReP

CMRA

12-17-03, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Trepidati0n
CMRA:

Is this (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=43430) the type of spray gun you are talking about.

-tReP

Yep. That or an even higher PSI one. I have MM and Tryg to thank for showing me the way on this one. I pushed that gun to 60 PSI without issues. Some are rated up tp 90 PSI.

bcortez

12-17-03, 02:54 PM

What about spray gun rentals? Or compressor rentals if you purchase the gun itself? Not sure I can budget the cost of a system I may never use for any other project.

Richum

12-17-03, 03:44 PM

CMRA did you use the standard 1.4 mm nozzle that is shipped with the Harbor Freight HVLP?

My compressor is only a 2HP and rated at 9.2 CFM which is below the minimum rated for the gun of 9.5 CFM. However, I can probably get by by increasing the pressure to 60 as recommended. May have wait some for the compressor to catch up. ;o)

Ray Cendroski

12-17-03, 04:25 PM

For larger screens, would it be possible to substitute something like a thick clear flexible vinyl? Can that type of material be sprayed upon, and flexed a little without damage? Pardon me if the question has been asked before.

It would appear that acrylic sheets larger than 4' x 10' are just not available, or not practical because of shipping and handling expenses.

I would like to get on with creating a large 2.35 scope screen 6' high and perhaps 13' to 14' wide. This would be in anticipation of some of the new software "blending" technologies that would permit placing two projectors side by side and making a seamless image. For the short term, I would just mask off the unused section . If the technology fizzles, no big deal. The point is, I would just like to make one screen one time and be done.

I thought it would be great to spray something like that in the garage, then transport it to the basement later.

Thanks,
Ray

peddagunnu

12-17-03, 05:09 PM

I have called a bunch of plastic suppliers here in Portland. There seem to be two types of acrylic sheets that are available. Extruded (referred to in industry parlance as FF) and clear cast (referred to a GP). The 4ft X 8ft, 1/8 inch extruded (FF) sheets seem to be inexpensive and can be had for around 40 bucks. 4ft x 10ft and 5ft x 8ft can be had too but I am interested in a 16:9 screen.

A small number of suppliers carry larger size GP sheets. However GP sheets are expensive, for instance a 5ft x 10ft x 1/8in is $128. I am currently projecting a 106in x 60in image on a white wall and am happy with the size of the image. I would not want to go lower if I can help it.

I would appreciate answers to the following questions

1. Were the CMRA/MM experiments conducted with extruded or clear cast acrylic sheets?

2. I was told that the optical characteristics of FF and GP are very similar. Is there anyone on this forum who can confirm if this really the case.

3. Is there a cheap source of larger sizes of acrylic sheets which are in the order of 5ft x 10ft.

4. Can the paint films that CMRA/MM are using be substituted by a screen printing process? A majority of plastic fabricators also do custom printing work inexpensively. So if this is possible then the CMRA/MM technique can be done in a bulk automated fashion thus bringing down material cost and labor.

MississippiMan

12-17-03, 05:39 PM

Ray,

Don't try the vinyl sheeting unless it is both ultra clear and the thickest mil available. I don't think the combination exists, but I could be wrong. If it's out there, it's probably a "Green House" supply item.

It will have to be stretch tight and perfectly straight to avoid waves from an uneven surface.

I'd avoid it, and if your stuck on the size screen you mentioned, I'd focus on doing it on some type of Hardboard, preferably Parkland, and just make it the best Top coat over SM base you can produce.

Richum,

Rent a 5 Hp/ 24 gallon compressor. Don't try to maintain enough pressure with a lessor capacity tank. It will only condemn you to a weak kneed stream of air unable to effectually push out the thick paints in quantities and an evenness you'll need.

Listen to bcotez, and do as he suggested/asked..........., rent if you have to to assure a great screen.

Omzig,

the same mix in a Goo format will cost you over $200.00. Theres the only real difference. The MM Topcoat is very similar (...don't want to say, "a copy" or "the same") and costs $80.00 at most to put together, including the Silver Metallic base.

Joe,

You could probably use the Porter Wagner for the first coat of SM. Why don't you. You can tell use of your disaster or success. It has been discounted as an option, but I don't think anyone has really even tried.

The first two coats of Silver (and the Primer coat behind) don't have to be perfect, just evenly coated and opaque enough to stop light and send out back.

The Top coat is another deal altogether. If you have ANY adverse spraying experience doing the back coats, switch to a good system for the Top Coat.

I have several methods you can employ to attach the Parkland or Plexi.

PM me, and then you can post my reply.

Trepidati0n,

Your my kinda Guy. You and fkong777 both, actually. If you Guys keep it up, you'll make CMRA's & my job so easy, Beer & Burritos will be all that left us.....while watching the movies on our SD/MM screens!

Richum

12-17-03, 06:42 PM

MM thanks for the suggestion. I was concerned about the capacity of my compressor for this purpose considering it will not keep up with most air tools. I have a neighbor who has a vertical tank top mounted compressor and I will see if he is willing to let me use it/help me. I may attempt my smaller 2' x 2' sheet with my equipment for training purposes.

MississippiMan

12-17-03, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by peddagunnu
I have called a bunch of plastic suppliers here in Portland. There seem to be two types of acrylic sheets that are available. Extruded (referred to in industry parlance as FF) and clear cast (referred to a GP). The 4ft X 8ft, 1/8 inch extruded (FF) sheets seem to be inexpensive and can be had for around 40 bucks. 4ft x 10ft and 5ft x 8ft can be had too but I am interested in a 16:9 screen.

<<<<<<Sometimes, a slight "give & take" is necessary to obtain optimum results. In the past, screen size was definitely a consideration in determining image quality as it related to cost outlay. Smaller was less expensive due to less extensive video processing gear being needed. Nowadays we have an image quality that's available to us that was undreamed of only 5 years ago..., at any price worth dreaming about. The point being, that if practical decisions are made by practical people, often, the practical becomes the optimum choice all around. Most design their Home Theaters, and their screens sizes around the "old school" of design. Fit it all inside a narrow rectangle with the screen at one end. That's the most lousy arrangement possible, and condemns one to exaggerate screen size to compensate for seating depth requirements.

With image quality vastly improved, and 'non eyestrain' light levels coming off the screen, minimum seating distance have move forward to 8'

This, along with HD programing Off air and on upcoming DVDs, allows for the same viewing aspect ratio from a 96" diagonal screen as one would get with a 110" diagonal. But a 96"er can be fit inside any 5'x10' area, or even 4'x8' if true 2.35:1 is aspired to. 16:9 would be limited to 102" diagonal on 5'x10' and 92"diagonal on 4'x8'

All of which are great sizes if the image quality allows closer viewing, and the resulting "Big Screen" feel. The SD/MM Plexiglas screen attenuates SDE for LCD PJ owners, and of course, just make DLP images more snappy and vibrant to the point of making one giddy.

Can budding or established PJ Heads accept such a premise? If they are starting from scratch on the whole HT, they better should! If they want something spectacular NOW, and can put aside old premises and mind-thinks, gather everyone a little closer, and enjoy more picture to room volume, then yes, the had better consider it strong like.

Being a system designer, I have strong opinions on this subject. Most Theaters I design are intended to blow 'em away...., with genteelness and class mixed with undeniably superior sound imaging and special effects. I've never had any problem selling Home Theaters on those "sound" ideals. Video has always been a different story. What a Client could justify price wise for audio was not commensurate to what they would have to spend to arrive at a Video presentation that did the sound justice.

Many of my systems therefore were comprised of RPTVs and Direct View TVs that were built in to mimic impossibly large Plasma TVs I got used to designing Theaters where the first row sitting 6' to 7' feet from a 73" Mitsubishi cranking out HD images was just about as good as you could hope for...., under the $15,000.00+ total cost category. Most of my Theaters came in under $10,000.00 complete, and a bunch under $6,00.00

Yet NEVER would I compromise on the Image/Sound match up, at any price level.

Todays 7 channel+ Receivers function best when the speaker set up is widest across the viewing axis. A 5:3 ratio is ideal, positioning the right & left front speakers as wide as possible with the center ideally situated in the, you know....center.

Right & Left Side(Rear) are optimally positioned to the side, or immediate rear corners, and the Right & Left Center Rears are where their names imply they should be, 1/3 of the way in toward the middle rear wall from the Right & Left Rears in the corners.

Acoustically speaking, things have changed, and many 'experts' are having a hard time of it disregarding old school habits, and accepted theorems on speaker placement.

All this means less distance from the seating to the screen, and subsequently, a smaller screen needed to achieve the "Theater" aspect.

New Home Theater systems revel in the 'short throw' world of todays PJs. Most of you with LCDs like the Z1 & Z2 and the Panny crowd, all have specific limitations on size, that have come handed down to you from the Mfg based on testing with image qualities not as good as we now enjoy. And a lot of you already have decided you can & MUST push the limits. Keep the screen size below max limits, and combine that with a killer screen application, and the overall experience will be much more satisfying for the effort and expenditure made. Biggest isn't always "Best" and often generates more problems than pleasure.

If you DO have to exceed these limits, and spend even $200.00 on a gawdawful big piece of Plexiglas, the SM/MM method of painting it, and getting it into place will see you results that far exceed the cost and 'pain in the ass' aspect of getting it all accomplished.

The rest of you; if you can live within reasonable boundaries, the SD/MM Plexi Screen can give you the same level of performance, and beyond, of screens costing up to 10 times as much your overall expenditure.

Making statements like that always raises the hackles of those already committed to the Mfg screen venue. But some DO see the sense of it all, and join us in the quest for not just more 'bang for the buck', but a screen that will make other Mfg screen owners envious to the point of tears, or at least curses. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

[QUOTE][B]
A small number of suppliers carry larger size GP sheets. However GP sheets are expensive, for instance a 5ft x 10ft x 1/8in is $128. I am currently projecting a 106in x 60in image on a white wall and am happy with the size of the image. I would not want to go lower if I can help it.

<<<<<See above plea for sanity. :D >>>>>>>>>>

I would appreciate answers to the following questions

1. Were the CMRA/MM experiments conducted with extruded or clear cast acrylic sheets?

<<<<<<They came from Home Depot. CMRA will have to confirm what they were exactly.>>>>>>>>>>>>

2. I was told that the optical characteristics of FF and GP are very similar. Is there anyone on this forum who can confirm if this really the case.

<<<<<< Is there? I don't know. But common sense tells me the difference is not important in this application, at least not enough to warrant any undue extra cost. 1/8" is pretty thin, and most optical Plexi is limited to thicker pieces, due to their being used as window replacements or for safety shielding.>>>>>>>>>>

3. Is there a cheap source of larger sizes of acrylic sheets which are in the order of 5ft x 10ft.

<<<<<<< fkong777 posted this only a few posts back.
http://www.rjsign.com/Merchant2/mer...ory_Code=SUBSTR
Sometimes, you have to do some extra searching yourself to make things work. Or accept what info others provide. The link above should get you started. Pick the brains of whomever you contact, and if you find out a killer supply, you better let us all know! We lake someone to do our legwork for us too! :P >>>>>>>>>>

4. Can the paint films that CMRA/MM are using be substituted by a screen printing process? A majority of plastic fabricators also do custom printing work inexpensively. So if this is possible then the CMRA/MM technique can be done in a bulk automated fashion thus bringing down material cost and labor.

The Silver has to be opaque, and the Top Coat translucent. I can envision a screen process laying down a nice thin membrane with just the right properties, and the rear surface could graduate into a semi gloss aluminum or silver w/gold mix.

Such research is being conducted as we speak, I believe. I can sense a disturbance in the force. Oh. never mind.
That was only the after effects of one of those Burritos.

The world of opportunity is wide open, and personally, I feel both proud and excited to have joined forces with CMRA, and several others prior, that help acclimate me to the DIY screen venue. With others joining in, and taking steps to actually get screen up on the walls, the movement toward making a definite impression on the Mfg. Screen industry's strangle hold seems to be gathering enough steam to move some rather large mountains of opinion.

CMRA

12-17-03, 10:35 PM

Just in case you want to know what MississippiMan is writing about, I'm posting a a couple of screen shots illustrating his point. No need to sift through countless threads.
Note the 3 plexiglass panels atop the grey screen.

Pix #1:

CMRA

12-17-03, 10:39 PM

You'll have to get past the vertical banding caused by the camera to appreciate this one. Otherwise, it's a go.

MississippiMan

12-17-03, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by Trepidati0n
CMRA:

Is this (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi//Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=43430) the type of spray gun you are talking about.

-tReP

Wow! What a price! With a new 5 HP - 24 gallon compressor ($129.00) and a Regulator/Water & Rust Filter ($19.95) and that $39.95 Spray Gun

....that's a total of only $185.90

Add $80.00 for Paint

$125.00 for the biggest Plexi you can get. (...why not?)

....and for a mere $390.90 you can still have the best screen for you time and money spent.

Or just by the paint Spray Rig and paint, and shoot it on the wall.

That works out to be only $265.90

Afterward, you can go around putting professional finishes on everything you own. Gotta get some mileage out of that damn Spray Outfit!

I know. You'll get into the Custom screen painting business, just like MM, and charge 'em $600.00 for $80.00 worth of paint, and $1,000,000.00 worth of experience and knowledge.

You'll be famous, and greatly beloved of all who cross your path.

Heady stuff.

Merry Christmas from "The Bottoms"

actonweber

12-18-03, 12:21 AM

OK, CMRA and MMan, you have finally convinced me. I have a friend with a compressor. I will buy the gun and filter (if he doesn't have it.) And find a place to buy the acrylic. Those pictures are just too gorgeous (and I DON'T mean the portraits!) I may even have enough SM leftover from the ME+ experiments to learn with! My New Year's project is decided - to be completed before the big HDTV Super Bowl party in February! You two deserve a medal or something. The smart investor wouldn't be buying stock in Stewart or DaLite right now!

John in NNY

BTW, I was checking out Acrylite websites and discovered that "ACRYLITE FF OPTICAL GRADE sheet is a new product designed to applications requiring a high level of optical purity, low birefringence and exact dimensional specifications. Uses include optical data storage, mirrors, lenses and light-management applications." The fact that it is FF means it is made by a cheaper manufacturing process so perhaps the price won't be too high! Go to http://www.sdplastics.com/acrylit1.html for contact info on the FF Optical.

OOPS, check that. The FF Optical Grade only comes in .049" thick (less than 1/16) and 48x96 sheets. Mighty thin to work with. But if enough people contact the manufacturer - it does say "Custom Sizes Quoted Upon Request" at http://www.americanacrylics.com/cyroffgp.htm

KingofOld

12-18-03, 12:26 AM

the plexi screen attenuates screen door?

CMRA

12-18-03, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by KingofOld
the plexi screen attenuates screen door?

There's no scientific verification, but it does seem the reflecting back light does in fact reduce its effect. It may be just an illusion, but a welcome one.
So far testing has been done only on one LCD projector, my Z1. It's too early to confirm, but both MM and I observed a clearer, cleaner image while testing.

Richum

12-18-03, 07:59 AM

actionweber,

Your post to FF optical grade makes me curious about the translucent white. Something like the drop panels in overhead light applications. Hmmm, perhaps only one side to paint.

ender611

12-18-03, 08:08 AM

DIY screen makers are being mistaken for Viagra users across the country!
I’m talking about the dance, not the other thing.

Guess I’m getting over the thalo green itch, but it sure had some interesting luminosity effect to make misty eve stand out over just lamp black alone. Too bad there wasn’t a thalo red out there. Maybe when CMRA goes for gold a green push will be needed.

What is it about silver that needs the red push. Does it reduce the red level in relation to the green and blue and thus make having thalo green on the top coat an absolute detriment being the opposite of red? And is red oxide ( I believe this was ddogs choice as well ) proven a better choice over other reds?

This sounds like it will be fantastic on any plexi no matter what the ‘optical purity’ is. Even on a white plexi, where is the light going to go? Is one trying to make, say a blue wavelength hit the silver and bounce back out the front at the point where it went in or are is one just trying to create a light saturated backdrop of all colors ( white )?

Congratulations on your discoveries and a big big thanks from a guilty couch potatoe.

………

And an off topic to MississippiMan.

I’m forced to project onto the last eight feet of a thirteen foot wall ( my door way occupies the other 5 feet ). Front speakers are a big problem ( I,m laying them down right now under my screen ). I read about the invisible speaker systems on your website and think maybe that’s an answer but even without the invisible system, if I put one speaker on the other side of the doorway, 5 feet to the side of my screen could I put the other speaker 3 feet in front of the screen along the side wall ( the side wall is only 5 inches from the side of my screen ). From your website pictures I see you’ve seen about every configuration under the sun.

Also with these invisible speakers have you placed the front center speaker right behind the painted screen meaning no more need for sound penetrable screen material to have this effect?

Trepidati0n

12-18-03, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by CMRA
There's no scientific verification, but it does seem the reflecting back light does in fact reduce its effect. It may be just an illusion, but a welcome one.
So far testing has been done only on one LCD projector, my Z1. It's too early to confirm, but both MM and I observed a clearer, cleaner image while testing.

There will always be some index of refraction whenever you change from one material to another. The best example of this is to stick a straw in a glass of water and look at it from the side (water has a very high index of refraction). Do to the Plexiglas thickness the amount of shift will cause the light to shift just ever so slightly which will in effect "blend" the screen door away. If the Plexiglas is to thin...the screen door will become more obvious...if the Plexiglas is to tick the image may look blurred do to excessive overlapping. Honestly, there is a guy who has 20/10 vision on this forum would probably be dying to get this screen since he has a LCD projector!

Trepidati0n

12-18-03, 08:52 AM

I have attached a PDF of a basic refraction calculation. Please remember that some light is reflected externally and some is internally reflected once it is in the Plexiglas (lots of other laws apply to light passing through a medium). Therefore you will get some blending in the center...but it will be more obvious around the edges of the screen. Enjoy

-tReP

peddagunnu

12-18-03, 10:57 AM

Thanks for your detailed reply MississippiMan. You and CMRA have indeed unleashed a qualitative improvement in front projection passive screens.

Originally posted by MississippiMan

<<<<<<They came from Home Depot. CMRA will have to confirm what they were exactly.>>>>>>>>>>>>

HD tells me they mostly carry extruded (cheaper and quicker to mfg)

<<<<<< Is there? I don't know. But common sense tells me the difference is not important in this application, at least not enough to warrant any undue extra cost. 1/8" is pretty thin, and most optical Plexi is limited to thicker pieces, due to their being used as window replacements or for safety shielding.>>>>>>>>>>

You are right. The refraction calculations posted by Trepidati0n recently confirm that. The refractive indices in both cases (extruded and cast) are very close (gleaned from manufacturers specifications). So 1/8" or thinner seems to be the way to go based on grid line thickness in current LCD projectors. I like the challenge of finding a cheap source of 5'x10'x1/8" extruded acrylic sheets. I will post my findings once I find one.

<<<<<<< fkong777 posted this only a few posts back.
http://www.rjsign.com/Merchant2/mer...ory_Code=SUBSTR
Sometimes, you have to do some extra searching yourself to make things work. Or accept what info others provide. The link above should get you started. Pick the brains of whomever you contact, and if you find out a killer supply, you better let us all know! We lake someone to do our legwork for us too! :P >>>>>>>>>>

I did look at that. I am going the route of locating manufacturers and finding a local distributor thereby avoiding shipping costs. GE Plastics distributors sound promising currently.

<<<<<<<<<The Silver has to be opaque, and the Top Coat translucent. I can envision a screen process laying down a nice thin membrane with just the right properties, and the rear surface could graduate into a semi gloss aluminum or silver w/gold mix.

Such research is being conducted as we speak, I believe. I can sense a disturbance in the force. Oh. never mind.
That was only the after effects of one of those Burritos.>>>>>>>

I am glad somebody is looking into it. I think investigating flexible surfaces that have similar optical properties to acrylic would be useful too. I am guessing if there is a breakthrough like the one you and CMRA brought about in this area (screen printed flexible plastic), then I am guessing a 110" diagonal 16:9 screen can be manfuactured for less than 20 bucks. Since the screens can be rolled, shipping would be much easier and cheaper too. Pair that with Intel entering the LCoS marker and you will have a true native HD home theater projector and screen for less than 1000 bucks by 2007. Exciting times indeed.

<<<<<<<The world of opportunity is wide open, and personally, I feel both proud and excited to have joined forces with CMRA, and several others prior, that help acclimate me to the DIY screen venue. With others joining in, and taking steps to actually get screen up on the walls, the movement toward making a definite impression on the Mfg. Screen industry's strangle hold seems to be gathering enough steam to move some rather large mountains of opinion>>>>>.

Keep up the good work and hopefully it will lead to a radical disruptive technological change for the better in the manufactured screen industry.

P.S: I went and bought all the paint and materials required at HD for about 70 bucks with a 10% off coupon. Now have to convince my father-in-law who owns a painting business in Port Townsend to come down and help me paint a screen after Christmas. I plan to collect samples of rigid 1/8" thick clear plastic that can be had in large sizes here in Portland and try them out in the mean time, or at least that is the plan (the needs of my one year old daughter do preempt a lot of plans though).

MississippiMan

12-18-03, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by ender611
DIY screen makers are being mistaken for Viagra users across the country!
I’m talking about the dance, not the other thing.

Guess I’m getting over the thalo green itch, but it sure had some interesting luminosity effect to make misty eve stand out over just lamp black alone. Too bad there wasn’t a thalo red out there. Maybe when CMRA goes for gold a green push will be needed.

The Thallo Greens' purpose was to enhance black levels without having to resort to a darker Grey. PJs such as CMRA's with only 700 lumens and a 600:1 contrast ratio need plenty of help, and the light grey w/green did exactly that.

What is it about silver that needs the red push. Does it reduce the red level in relation to the green and blue and thus make having thalo green on the top coat an absolute detriment being the opposite of red? And is red oxide ( I believe this was ddogs choice as well ) proven a better choice over other reds?

The SM enhances certain color wavelengths, as well as delivers enhanced detail and a smoother transition between specifically different hues of the same approximate color. It also reflects light back more directly due to a effect similar to a more precise mirror application.

These attributes come with a cost, a lessening of the enhanced black levels. Not enough to cry about, but when compared to perfect Blacks, the blacks do see more 'milky'. That is, barely off black toward grey.

This is only with such PJs as the Z1, and others with similar low Contrast levels. We are not talking about an effect that occurs with any PJ with a Contrast level over 900:1.

To add any pigment to the SM base that would offset the reflect-ability of the Silver Metallic would be self defeating. I wouldn't even consider it an option.

To add even a single 1/96 Oz. droplet of Thallo Green to the Top Coat along with the very low amount of Red Oxide present would risk the chance of creating a dull brown hue within what is supposed to be a white but translucent coating.

That might result in a true case of "Mud", and even if it did not, and blacks were slightly better, it would be at the expense at the perceived vibrancy and brilliance of the image. There is a case where making a test panel will pay off, but at present, the quality of the SD/MM results make such experimentations seem mightily redundant.

It's a tough call to make after everyone having fawned over the simplicity of ME. But good as it was, it still had distractions that were constantly being pointed out. One, it gobbled up light that was in short supply. Two, it skewed color correctness enough to require tweaking the Z1 enough that there could be no real consistency between varying DVDs. Three, for some eyes, the Thallo Green and Grey combined to produce a ever so slight 'blueish' tint to some colors and/or specific on-screen lighting conditions.

CMRA carefully analyzed the end results, (...as carefully as one can at 4:00 AM and while recovering from a state of Beer induced narcosis.) and both of us, critical as we were, determined that the ever so slight loss of Black level was only noticeable when compared directly against, and side to side to CMRA's old pure ME Screen. It could in no way offset the gains made across the board by the combination of Silver, translucence, and the clear plexi sandwich filling.

This sounds like it will be fantastic on any plexi no matter what the ‘optical purity’ is. Even on a white plexi, where is the light going to go? Is one trying to make, say a blue wavelength hit the silver and bounce back out the front at the point where it went in or are is one just trying to create a light saturated backdrop of all colors ( white )?

That's exactly what is being done. The straighter back the reflected light bounces, the more accuracy toward the original wavelength it maintains The Silver does enhance black levels over any "White application", but no so much as to attenuate light to the degree other High Contrast surfaces do. When I use a 2200 lumen 20-HD, I have oodles of headroom to play with darker screen combos. the 900:1 CR of the 20-HD is still low enough that when combined with that high a Lumen output, it too can deliver 'milky' blacks that benefit from a darker grey hue. But the higher lumens also can bring out vagrancies of color that would go unnoticed at lower lumens, so one has to be careful to maintain as neutral an approach as possible while still attempting to augment the desirable.

When attempting this application on a Hard Board surface, the object is to create a highly reflective surface, then overcoat it with a translucent coat that effectively mutes the undesirable aspects of TOO MUCH reflectivity, while at the same time allowing as direct a reflection as possible. That's why Thin is best as far as Top Coats go.

And as stated previously, the white and pearlescent aspects within the Top Coat work to keep both hot and cool colors vibrant and also maintain their color correctness as well.

Congratulations on your discoveries and a big big thanks from a guilty couch potato.

………

And an off topic to MississippiMan.

I’m forced to project onto the last eight feet of a thirteen foot wall ( my door way occupies the other 5 feet ). Front speakers are a big problem ( I'm laying them down right now under my screen ). I read about the invisible speaker systems on your website and think maybe that’s an answer but even without the invisible system, if I put one speaker on the other side of the doorway, 5 feet to the side of my screen could I put the other speaker 3 feet in front of the screen along the side wall ( the side wall is only 5 inches from the side of my screen ). From your website pictures I see you’ve seen about every configuration under the sun.

<<<<< That I have indeed! For your situation, with Transducers, if you have accessibility to the ceiling, that would probably get you the best results. Unlike conventional 'directional' speakers, Transducers produce 180 degrees of radial dispersion off a flat surface. (...think 1/2 a globe) Ceilings have never been the best choice, and even the worst choice for most "In -wall speakers". The same applies to Transducers, but not nearly as much due to their unique dispersion characteristics. And due to their "invisibility", they can be placed where they can do the most good, not where they must "look good".

Also with these invisible speakers have you placed the front center speaker right behind the painted screen meaning no more need for sound penetrable screen material to have this effect?

<<<You better believe it! That's one of the most beneficial aspects of all. I haven't painted a single screen excepting one where the Transducers were not making the screen surface produce the sound.

Not only are we way off topic here, but I'm skating dangerously close to 'self promotion'. Those who know me know I'm avidly against using the Forum for such purposes, and those who know the forum rules would surely frown if I was to go much further. If your interested, contact me via the phone number on the Website, or post me an email via the normal route, land I'll then take it from there. At least you now have an idea what, "Hearing is believing, but Seeing is out of the Question!" means. Now that Video is starting to play such a big part in my marketing and installations, I'm gonna have to change it around to read, "Seeing what your hearing is out of the Question, but Seeing what you do will Kick your A_ _ !" >>>>>>>.

Final note to Trepidati0n,

You Techno-Wizards slay me. Here I am, a poor, ignorant Hoosier boy living in a Barn down in the Bottoms of northern Missisippi, trying to make good despite it all, and in one PDF, you say what I've taken countless posts to try to describe. Where were you when my brain was being passed out? At the head of the line? Ya Hog! Gimme some back!

Trepidati0n

12-18-03, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by MississippiMan
Final note to Trepidati0n,

You Techno-Wizards slay me. Here I am, a poor, ignorant Hoosier boy living in a Barn down in the Bottoms of northern Missisippi, trying to make good despite it all, and in one PDF, you say what I've taken countless posts to try to describe. Where were you when my brain was being passed out? At the head of the line? Ya Hog! Gimme some back!

Heh...did you ever think brains isn't all that. I do not have the business sense, social skills, or the ability to think excessively outside of the box to do what you. I can crunch the math and implement ideas with the best of them..but god forbid I try to make a profit. I'll always remain middle class and never make those big bucks that excellent installers/salesmen make. But shrug, i'll live.

The blind instinctive experimentation that CMRA, MM, Scoob, and countless others is something I'm just plain jealous of. But 95% of todays "cool" things were accidents in an R&D department somewhere. It is funny, but true.

-tReP

Psst...you spelled Mississippi wrong :p

Richum

12-18-03, 02:34 PM

For those who may not be familiar with HVLP spray equipment (myself included) here is a link to a small PDF manual on the discription/use and trouble shooting HVLP sparyers. This is put out by Sherwin Williams.

http://www.spraytechsys.com/literature/wag_lit/wag_pdf/HVLP_training.pdf

MississippiMan

12-18-03, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by Trepidati0n

-tReP

Psst...you spelled Mississippi wrong :p

Oh, how hateful can ya'll git ! :mad: :p :D

If de rest cha ya'all bea needin a way to 'member hows ta spill it, (liken' I's do, 'parently... ) yars a way my 'ol Unc Cannybus tawt me. :rolleyes:

Mississippi,

Emmy, she comes a furst, den I come. Esse, she's a comin' twice, then I be comin' agin', Essie, she comes a two mor times, den IPP and I come agin'

Dats a help'da many a pur sole wit der spellin' of sucha long wurd.

Don't even try Indiana. :eek:

Kamel407

12-18-03, 02:45 PM

better than

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

Yes that is the correct spelling

BTW looks like I might be getting a Grawhawk screen (crossing fingers) for christmas so I'll be able to do direct comparisons with ME in february. (Still leaning toward the Z2)

MississippiMan

12-18-03, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Richum
For those who may not be familiar with HVLP spray equipment (myself included) here is a link to a small PDF manual on the discription/use and trouble shooting HVLP sparyers. This is put out by Sherwin Williams.

http://www.spraytechsys.com/literature/wag_lit/wag_pdf/HVLP_training.pdf

Richum, you da man 'o' de hour! That link is an excellent one, although Sherwin Williams paints are the crappiest paints there are. IMO

The instructions are comprehensive and detailed, yet 'laymenesque' enough to assure that the 'reading' challanged among us should get the basic drift.

You've saved CMRA & I countless posts describing Spray technique.

Take a bow, Dude!

MississippiMan

12-18-03, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by Kamel407
better than

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

Yes that is the correct spelling

<<<<seems awfully precocious to me.>>>>>>>>>>>

BTW looks like I might be getting a Grawhawk screen (crossing fingers) for Christmas so I'll be able to do direct comparisons with ME in February. (Still leaning toward the Z2)

Stop right there! DO NOT buy that screen. No way will it perform up to standards for you expense, and worse still, it was never designed for a low lumen PJ like the Z2. Yes it has a little more output than the Z1, but not enough to compensate for the loss of gain the Greyhawk will present.

Ye Gods, Man! Do I have to say it this bluntly?

Don't make such a ill starred and downright stupid mistake when that very subject has been the root of why CMRA & I have been trying to perfect a DIY screen that is ideal for PJs like the Z1 & Z2. Hell's Bells, good 'ole ME Lite w/red painted on the wall will outperform, in most EVERYBODYs' opinion, the results you'll get from a GreyHawk.

For about $20.00

Shoot, you all just buy me a Plane ticket ($250.00), put me up in a "Sleep Cheap" for 2 days, ($100.00) buy the SD/MM paints, ($90.00) pay me $300.00 for my invaluable talents :rolleyes: and you can sit back and when I'm done, you'll have a screen that will eat the GreyHawk alive!

For a total of less than $700.00.

So there.

BTW.

you misspelled GreyHawk (Grawhawk! :p )

Kamel407

12-18-03, 03:40 PM

Who said *I* was buying it? (evilgrin)

Besides, it will be good for DIY Screen comparisons in the future.

Richum

12-18-03, 03:44 PM

MM, I am glad you found the HVLP.pdf useful, then everyone else should as well since you probably know most/all of the facts already.

Like they say down my way "Even a blind hog will find an acorn now and again"

MississippiMan

12-18-03, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by Kamel407
Who said *I* was buying it? (evilgrin)

Besides, it will be good for DIY Screen comparisons in the future.

Oh, in that case, we can really pick it to death.

I see big plans in the Future for you, you Dromidary kinda Guy you.
Such one on one comparisons can only help to seperate the wheat from the chaff, or in otherwords, create a "Whoops, der it is!" that can brook no denial.

MississippiMan

12-18-03, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Richum
MM, I am glad you found the HVLP.pdf useful, then everyone else should as well since you probably know most/all of the facts already.

Like they say down my way "Even a blind hog will find an acorn now and again"

Lessin' I find him furst, den its Tripe frum den on.

That tutorial was, aside from the Sales speil, so comprehensive as to be considered a "Bible" of reference for the newbee.

It will be a valuable link for some time to come.

KingofOld

12-18-03, 06:42 PM

my home depot only carries up to size 3x6, will try my local glass supplier.

Kamel407

12-18-03, 09:01 PM

I see big plans in the Future for you, you Dromidary kinda Guy you.

Best part of your pun is you spelled dromedary wrong!

I almost *spit* when I saw that reply! It was cheerful funny.

Kamel407

12-19-03, 12:05 AM

Christmas gift or not, is the Grayhawk not a good choice? I thought it might be one of the better manufactured screens out there for the Z2 in a pitch black environment. Or should I just sit it out until I make my projector purchase.

MississippiMan

12-19-03, 05:14 AM

Originally posted by Kamel407
Christmas gift or not, is the Grayhawk not a good choice? I thought it might be one of the better manufactured screens out there for the Z2 in a pitch black environment. Or should I just sit it out until I make my projector purchase.

In all sincerity, (choke) The GreyHawk is a High Contrast screen that was designed for higher lumen PJs with low contrast ratios. When it came down the pike, few LCD PJs with over 1000 lumens had any better contrast ratios than the Z1 or Panny 300s. But the latter also had significantly less lumens as well.

The Grey screen will help your blacks, but it will also mute your colors and dull your whites. (...we call that 'crushing' around yar...) Yes, a totally dark room will help with the overall brightness somewhat, but any really light or bright color that hits the screen without significant lumens ti punch it onto the surface will be attenuated across it's wavelength more than it is accurately reflected.

The end result will be a dull picture that decries and belittles the vividness that the Z2 will bring in to the picture. (...I'm so clever...) Any "Very Light Flat Grey" painted wall or piece of Hardboard will do as well or better, if you were to use ANY one of the simple Misty Evening formulas.

Christmas is a wonderful time of the year, and surely it is better to receive an expensive gift than to give one......, that is to say, receive an expensive gift that doesn't satisfy. You at least have the ability to shrug off the disappointment easier than if you had spent the money yourself.

But take the other "Gift Giver's" feelings into consideration. Seriously. They get you what they think is a Killer present, your not happy so you don't use it, and they wonder why they ever went down that road or to that expense for your seemingly ungrateful hind end. At least that's the risk you take by not relating to your potential gift giver your latest education in advance so that they might switch over to another gift. The money saved on the GreyHawk can get a whole lot of other goodies, with plenty left to make a DIY screen of the umpteenth degree.

Many here on the Forum decry even spending over $30.00 for a Screen.
(Misty Evening applications are their best best.)

The best DIY screens you can create demand at least a $200.00 investment, with some potentially coming in at just over $350.00. But since those DIY screens can be custom formulated to your exact needs and the exact size best suited for your room and seating, they far outstrip what the Screen Mfgs have to offer. At $350.00, less than a third the price of a discounted GreyHawk, how can there be any other choice? Aw heck, at those savings, you can go out and get a $130.00 air Compressor, a $20.00 Regulator/Filter, a HVLP Gravity Feed Spray Gun ($50.00), all the Hoses and fittings,($40.00) the best paint combination we can recommend, and still, adding it all up, your only up to $590.00 ! And after it's all over, you own a fantastic Spray outfit that can keep you busy painting & touching up anything you want.

In fact, Your neighbors will be borrowing that rig all the time to create their own screens, (...or paint their fences..)leaving them open to all sorts of payback for you on other favors you need.

Man, you've got it made.

An Idea!
You can stock up on about 20 DVDs, buy the spray rig, and still have enough funds to create a incredible DIY screen option, take the significant other to Christmas Dinner out, and cruise into the New Year with the greatest of expectations, instead of the fears and doubt you are bound to start experiencing as we continually dun you about the tragedy your future presents. :(

One last note;

It's no fun discrediting any Mfgs' product. The Greyhawk would be a decent, if not ideal option for any PJ owner whose situation matched the properties of the screen in question. Simply put, your chosen PJ does not. Period. Going with the Greyhawk in your case would just be a case of 'compromise'. Especially since you have been warned. The recent advances in DIY screen building make it such a no brainer decision, only a total lack of desire to do the work involved could possibly derail the potential in performance and savings that await you.

Merry Christmas !

1Time

12-19-03, 05:37 AM

Please forgive me if this was already covered. Is it known how the superplex formula would perform if the painting was done with a foam roller? And, if so, how would the results of a foam rolled superplex compare to the actual superplex or other DIY solutions? I ask since I just got my projector last night and I want to make my screen today but I'm too reluctant to comit to spray painting. Thank you!

Kamel407

12-19-03, 06:42 AM

You never cease to amaze me. Your passion is amazing! I've decided to wait simply on your word alone. I'll put the gift money toward my pool resurfacing!

Kamel407

MississippiMan

12-19-03, 06:52 AM

Originally posted by 1Time
Please forgive me if this was already covered. Is it known how the superplex formula would perform if the painting was done with a foam roller? And, if so, how would the results of a foam rolled superplex compare to the actual superplex or other DIY solutions? I ask since I just got my projector last night and I want to make my screen today but I'm too reluctant to comit to spray painting. Thank you!

Well now, we better set you straight at once so you can get on with the fun part.

I'll say this only "1Time"
<chuckle>

Yes, you can roll the SP/MM formulas. But due to the thickness of the paint, I have found that laying down the first coat using a 'dry roller' works best.

Foam rollers can be tricky devils, and shed paint pretty quickly. I'd personally recommend using 3/8" nap imitation Lambs Wool rollers for the SM & Primer, and 1/4' ILW rollers for the Top Coat. be sure they say "Lint Free", and believe me, this is one case where buying the best pays off. If you can, buy the 1/4' nap rollers in the "Three Pack" and use a new roller for each layer of Top Coat

You didn't say if your using the SD/MM formula on a piece of Hardboard, or if your doing the dual sided Plexi application. Either way, the directions below apply equally to both methods.

To 'dry roll', you load the roller up with paint throughly, then roll out enough onto the tray ramp to reduce the roller's load by at least 1/2 Then, on a spare piece of material, (unfinished dry wall works best) make at least two passes with the roller. Now, try rolling the screen area with the roller, using slightly more pressure than normal. As you lay down the paint. overlap your strokes, and even press harder on areas where the paint goes on too thin, or where there might be a initial ridge of paint develop from any excess left on the rollers edge. Repeated passes over an area won't hurt you like it would if you were really applying the paint much thicker.
(One good thing about both applications; with the SM underlaying the Top Coat, small imperfections in the SM finish won't affect the quality of the image, or even be noticeable when the PJ is lighting up the screen. Only gross ridges or craters would ever be an issue. )

Stepping back, you should see a pretty even covering that because of it's thinness, will dry pretty quickly, especially if you apply copious amounts of heat to it. Just be sure to be patience enough to let it dry throughly.

This method is especially good on the Silver Metallic paint. Although you might have to apply at least 3 - 4 coats in this manner, you shouldn't be a 'slippin' n a 'slidin' around on the wall like you would trying to roll out a thicker coat.

Be sure to do the painting in this order.

Plexi......., Roll on your 2 -3 coats of SM, then follow with a coat of matching Grey Primer. Flip Plexi, and dry roll your first layer of Top Coat.
Apply another layer of Top Coat, "Lightly" wet sand the second coat until it feels very smooth, then using a 1/4" nap roller, apply the final coat as thinly as possible while still covering the area evenly.

Hardboard / Wall......, Fill in any depressions with quick dry mud on a wall surface, sand smooth. With hardboard, lightly rough up the surface with the "Medium" side of your Wet Sanding sponge. Apply Primer (1 gallon Kilz2 with Lamp Black added to match the Grey base of the SM) and lightly wet sand the first coat. Apply another coat and wet sand again. Apply the Silver Metallic in the same manner as described above, only wet sand the second coat lightly and the third coat "very lightly". Apply the first Top Coat and "very lightly" wet sand. Ditto with the second coat. Apply the final Top Coat and let dry.

Be sure every coat is dry before attempting either wet sanding or the application of the next coat.

Even with rolling, if you do this right, your finish should be almost a smooth as glass, and feel cool & wet to the touch even when dry. Expect the final finish to cure over about 1-2 weeks and just keep looking better and better with each passing day.

MississippiMan

12-19-03, 07:39 AM

Originally posted by Kamel407
You never cease to amaze me. Your passion is amazing! I've decided to wait simply on your word alone. I'll put the gift money toward my pool resurfacing!

Kamel407

May I suggest that you use Misty Evening Grey Waterproof Masonry to paint to paint your pool's sides? Talk about a "Pool Party!" Drain the pool down to about 1 1/2" deep, set up the Lawn Chairs, screen "Eyes Wide Shut" on the "Deep End" wall, and use up that supply of Viagra you've been hoarding.

Better still, use some of the money ($200.00) to buy the Spray Paint Outfit. Even if you don't need it afterwords, You could sell it to any number or people for 2/3rds of what you paid for it . You'd come out ahead no matter which way you turn. I cannot begin to tell you how many others would love to be in your shoes and even have that as a possible option.

Face it, you need to have that DIY screen up and ready for that PJ as soon as it arrives. I couldn't have it any other way!

KingofOld

12-19-03, 01:51 PM

Thanks MississippiMan for the detailed instructions on rolling the plexi. I just got off the phone with all my local rental places and it costs over $100 for a one night rental of a paint sprayer. Interestingly to rent a top of the line floor sander it costs $25, must be more demand for paint sprayers. Anyways I might give rolling a try. I'm going to be giving the plexi screen a shot. How likely is it that a relatively unexperienced painter (who can follow directions) can complete a plexi screen successfully by rolling rather than spraying? Which method would you say is more forgiving of inexperience? Do they both have their pitfalls?

KingofOld

12-19-03, 02:22 PM

does it make any difference what color the surface is that the plexi is attached to?

kpmnd85

12-19-03, 03:06 PM

I actually own a Spraytech 8100 HVLP sprayer (the one pictured in the background of the pdf). This is a system which does quite well applying furniture grade finishes.

Yesterday, I figured I would spray the SM on the plexiglass. I got all set up. I stuck the dip cup in the paint, pulled it out and looked at the clock. The dip cup has a hole in the bottom. For latex, it should be thinned so as to drain the cup in 30-35 seconds.

After 35 seconds it wasn't even half way empty. The SM paint says to only use one or two ounces of water for thinning. I knew this would not get the paint thin enough.

MM or CRMA - How much did you thin the SM before spraying?

CMRA

12-19-03, 04:20 PM

Kamel407

12-19-03, 04:24 PM

Now if I could only find financing for the Z2! I hope they are Waterproof!

I didn't realize Screens were such a "deep" subject.

MississippiMan

12-19-03, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by kpmnd85
I actually own a Spraytech 8100 HVLP sprayer (the one pictured in the background of the pdf). This is a system which does quite well applying furniture grade finishes.

Yesterday, I figured I would spray the SM on the plexiglass. I got all set up. I stuck the dip cup in the paint, pulled it out and looked at the clock. The dip cup has a hole in the bottom. For latex, it should be thinned so as to drain the cup in 30-35 seconds.

After 35 seconds it wasn't even half way empty. The SM paint says to only use one or two ounces of water for thinning. I knew this would not get the paint thin enough.

MM or CRMA - How much did you thin the SM before spraying?

MM here,

We thinned it wirh exactly 2 oz. of distilled water, and muxed it with a rotory mixer for a couple minutes.

It's going to defy standard practices. If your Gun can output over 11.5 gph and has a 'highest' pressure setting of 60 Lbs, you will be fine. Just section off 36" areas right to left and stay within those areas until evenly covered, then move to the next area and blend.

If the Gun has a filter that goes down into the Gravity supply tube, remove it if you can strain the paint...twice. Use a big 'ol Gallon size strainer or you will be waiting a spell. But strained twice, you should not get any 'splats' of coagulated paint. Leave it in, strained or not, and expect to stop every 5 minutes or so to rinse it off and replace it, or your paint supply will drindle down to nothing.

The trick with both the SM and Top Coat paints is to have plenty of reserve pressure in the tank, (120-140 lbs) the gauge on the Regulator/Water Filter should read at least 65-70 lbs, and the gauge on the Guns regulator (if it has one) set to 60 Lbs. You'll never see that much pressure at the nozzle, but the HVLP Gun will work best at those settings. You must determine where you must set the Fluid valve, but on our Gun, it was so wide open that it's 'almost' ready to pop out, (..in fact it did the first time I toyed with it!) The pressure Knob on the Gun was set to about 3/4 open.

CMRA, how is it I come home find a new post that's 1-1/2 hours old, and write a reply...and evey time you beat me to the punch?

Are you Pychedelic or sumthin'?

KingofOld

12-19-03, 04:29 PM

so to spray this stuff a compression system is neccessary? The only rentals I can find in town are for "airless" systems. I don't think these are those little wagner ones or whatever as they rent for over 100 dollars a night. I did find a friend who knows someone who works at a rental place and can get me an airless system for 35 dollars a night instead of its usual $110 price tag. Should I go for this? Or would this even be too weak? Its either this or rolling as I can't afford to buy my own equipment, and can't find anywhere that rents the compression systems.

MississippiMan

12-19-03, 04:37 PM

MississippiMan

12-19-03, 04:39 PM

Got there first on that last one.

ya got it all to yerself 'cause I'm headin' off the the wifey's Office Christmas party. At 5:00 PM no less.

MississippiMan

12-19-03, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by KingofOld
does it make any difference what color the surface is that the plexi is attached to?

Not if you have the Grey primer on with two coats behind the SM

CMRA

12-19-03, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by KingofOld
so to spray this stuff a compression system is neccessary? The only rentals I can find in town are for "airless" systems. I don't think these are those little wagner ones or whatever as they rent for over 100 dollars a night. I did find a friend who knows someone who works at a rental place and can get me an airless system for 35 dollars a night instead of its usual $110 price tag. Should I go for this? Or would this even be too weak? Its either this or rolling as I can't afford to buy my own equipment, and can't find anywhere that rents the compression systems.

I have sucessfully 'rolled' the undercoats. It can and will work. However, bonding becomes an issue. For some reason, latex under pressure, applied in multiple thin coats bonds well to plexi. If you go the rolling route take extreme care in handling your screen. Topcoat can go either way also, but spraying gives more control and done correctly gives that 'pro' factory like finish rather than a 'homemade' one. If your'e the type who enjoys showing off their masterpieces, spraying has no equal.
As always, you are getting into new territory. Just how many have sprayed latex on plexi before? A practice panel ($3 at HD) or two is recommended first. The last thing you want is a $100 plastic mistake collecting dust.

1Time

12-19-03, 05:23 PM

Thanks MM and CMRA. I'm off to buy a 4' x 8' x 1/8" plexiglass for $50 and the rest at HD. I'll be rolling me a superplex. :)

Kamel407

12-19-03, 05:25 PM

What's the biggest dimensions for plexi? 4' x 8' is nice, but I want bigger

KingofOld

12-19-03, 06:15 PM

I will be taking a few practice runs. What sorts of non correctable mistakes can a guy make spraying? I mean I realize that you gotta get it even, and nice thin coats etc but is there anything us relative newbies should look out for that isn't so obvious? Thanks for all the help. I'm going to try using this spray system at least for the top coat, but will fall back on rolling if need be.

CMRA

12-19-03, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by 1Time
Thanks MM and CMRA. I'm off to buy a 4' x 8' x 1/8" plexiglass for $50 and the rest at HD. I'll be rolling me a superplex. :)

Remember, practice makes perfect. Experiment on small panels first, and test also. Then go for the gold. Good luck.

1Time

12-19-03, 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Kamel407
What's the biggest dimensions for plexi? 4' x 8' is nice, but I want bigger

A couple of the places I talked to today told me they'd have to special order 5' x 10' since they don't carry it in stock. The prices I was quoted ranged from $48.16 out the door (what I paid) to over $150 for a 4' x 8' x 1/8" plexiglas. I bought mine from a place called GE PolymerShapes (General Electric) and it is described as Acrylic Sheet Plexiglas MCM, long clear extruded.

Richum

12-20-03, 07:20 AM

MM and/or CRMA,

If you used the Harbor Freight HVLP gun, did you use the standard nozzle that came with the gun? It is listed as shipping with a 1.4 mm (0546") and a 2mm (.0870") is available for $19.99. Seems to me that the larger nozzle might work better in this application.

Huh huh, what ya think?

CMRA

12-20-03, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by Richum
MM and/or CRMA,

If you used the Harbor Freight HVLP gun, did you use the standard nozzle that came with the gun? It is listed as shipping with a 1.4 mm (0546") and a 2mm (.0870") is available for $19.99. Seems to me that the larger nozzle might work better in this application.

Huh huh, what ya think?
Standard. Agreed, larger should be better. This stuff is HIGH viscosity for sure.

postman

12-20-03, 09:28 AM

Hey guys:

This plexiglass screen sounds very interesting, I'll try it out if I can locate a sheet of plexiglass. One question, why not paint the white front first, then shine a light on it and look at the (still unpainted) back to evaluate translucency and coat uniformity? The only part I'm not sure of is how translucent to make the white coat, it would be great to have a measurement. I'd guess that one might be able to lightly wet sand an overly thick coat to hit the desired thickness.
Thanks, and it's great to be able to benefit from the experiments of others!

Richum

12-20-03, 09:46 AM

Postman,

You have a good point. Perhaps we can scrape up enough brains in ths forum to make this a simple task even for me.

MM,

No matter which HVLP gun wind I up with I am definitely going to have the largest diameter nozzle that makes sense to use. Hopefully a good mix job and straining added to a minimum amount of thinning will result in a much more uniform coat.

CMRA

12-20-03, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by postman
Hey guys:

This plexiglass screen sounds very interesting, I'll try it out if I can locate a sheet of plexiglass. One question, why not paint the white front first, then shine a light on it and look at the (still unpainted) back to evaluate translucency and coat uniformity? The only part I'm not sure of is how translucent to make the white coat, it would be great to have a measurement. I'd guess that one might be able to lightly wet sand an overly thick coat to hit the desired thickness.
Thanks, and it's great to be able to benefit from the experiments of others!

Hence, the very reason for test panels. Since most equipment will differ from fabricator to fabricator, not to mention ambient conditions, practice on small panels first. Spraying the topcoat last is the preferred way because it gives you a visual guage against the SM back coat. You can always add more topcoat if too much 'silver' echos through. The topcoat must remain translucent enough to allow you to detect the presence of the silver back coat but not so much as to allow hot spotting or haloing to occur. Trial and error is the order of the day. Test between applications.

CMRA

12-20-03, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Richum
Postman,

You have a good point. Perhaps we can scrape up enough brains in ths forum to make this a simple task even for me.

MM,

No matter which HVLP gun wind I up with I am definitely going to have the largest diameter nozzle that makes sense to use. Hopefully a good mix job and straining added to a minimum amount of thinning will result in a much more uniform coat.

That's what this is all about. Nobody has perfected a universal technique yet. MM was fortunate to have equipment capable of dealing with his highly viscose formulations. Sounds to me as you have spray painting experience and your feed back pertaining to this is most welcome.

CMRA

12-20-03, 10:39 AM

Originally posted by 1Time
A couple of the places I talked to today told me they'd have to special order 5' x 10' since they don't carry it in stock. The prices I was quoted ranged from $48.16 out the door (what I paid) to over $150 for a 4' x 8' x 1/8" plexiglas. I bought mine from a place called GE PolymerShapes (General Electric) and it is described as Acrylic Sheet Plexiglas MCM, long clear extruded.

1Time.
This is indeed great news. About half the price we were expecting to pay. Who knows, you may be the first to have a full screen SD. Best Wishes. CMRA

1Time

12-20-03, 11:22 AM

I'll be rolling the flat latex combo for my top coat and was wondering what everyone else intends to do: Goo or its "equivalent", and spraying or rolling. Thank you all.

MississippiMan

12-20-03, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by 1Time
I'll be rolling the flat latex combo for my top coat and was wondering what everyone else intends to do: Goo or its "equivalent", and spraying or rolling. Thank you all.

1st Off, Spray if you can. The results are worth it, and it is actually a more easier and forgiving way to apply the thick, gooey paints involved. Rolling will require more steps, care, and time. You must decide what's best for you, 1Time, and don't look to others to convince you.

As for the other question..................,

Ya all bedder be usin da MississippiMud mix ur a gonna spend a 'dittionl $125.00.

Hey, Goo is a fine product, but between cost, and the amount of paint one receives, it isn't for the beginner OR the budget conscience. Which category do you fall under?

CMRA & I have been kickin' round idears about improving the contrast attributes of the SD/MM screen. And we love to agree to disagree on some of the finer points. That's the engine that drives both of ours' creativity.

Did you not say your going to use an X1?
If your using any PJ with a 900:1 or better CR, you needn't read further.

But if not....., lets all go back in time to a simpler day and age, when the intrepid Pioneer of Cheap DIY screens himself, CMRA first introduced ME

The combination of a lighter Grey than normally used for HC screens and Thallo Green created black levels that were excellent. Some were a trifle dissatisfied with the whites though, while others took umbrage with a purported 'oh so slight' "Blue" tint to whites and pastels. (It's rare, and there, but almost unnoticeable to all but the most discerning.)

No one with PJ as good as or better than a X1 EVER complained for these discrepancies manifested themselves with low lumen/low CR PJs only.

The Silver Metallic Undercoat delivers all the reflectivity needed by any PJ application, especially in accord with the use of the 1/8' Plexi.

The MM Top Coat, being very translucent, mutes the Silver Metallic's reflectivity just enough to allow everything reflected from the SM to combine with the light reflected from the white pigments in the MMTC for the image quality you have seen posted here.

Oh yeah, the contrast issue.

Now CMRA & I must continue our endeavors for perfection...........,

....and our "Tit for Tats" over our differing ideas on how to get that perfection perfected.

At least for his poor old, weak in the knees Z1. (...wish I had one! :D )

Truthfully, only by comparing the blacks derived from ME and those on the SD/MM application side by side can one discern the difference.

Wouldn't you know it!???!

I've decided that a very slight contrast boost with the use of 1/2 the amount of Thallo Green originally used in ME will suffice to enhance the blacks all that is needed. It will mix well with the MM Top Coat mix, and can be increased proportionally until the right blend is achieved.

Of course, this will probably mean that your neighbors will be even greener with envy when they see your 'off green' screen!

( Actually, with the Silver Metallic shining through, it won't ever be seen.)

This additional tweek is meant for Z1 & Z2 owners, and everyone else with Contrast Challenged PJs.

For those more fortunate, the MM Top Coat is the best overall choice to be considered.

For those with really powerful Light Cannons w/1500 lumens or greater, the addition of just a smidgen of Lamp Black in the MM mix will round thing out and keep hotspotting under control.

A good basic formula should be able to adapt to different and varying viewing conditions and performance values, and I truley think that the MM Top Coat fits that bill. Combined with the SM undercoat, or used by itself with any sunsequent tints added.

What was that original question presented by 1Time?

It seemed so long ago...................., oh, I remember now. :mad:

Goo or MM? Hey now, didn't I already say it 1Time before when I answered your first post? 1Time should have been enough!

For the LAST TIME, 1Time, unless this is the 1stTime I've really have your attention, if you want to do it right the 1stTime, and be gaur-en-teed that you only have to purchase your paint 1Time, and not spend 2Times the cash, stick with the MM Mix for your Top Coat.

That was 2Times 2Many.

Time2go

KingofOld

12-20-03, 01:53 PM

I'm going to guess that the L300 counts as a contrast challenged pj. I read a few posts ago that you thought that the green and red oxide would combine to make a dirty brown out of the whites. I planned on getting started today. I'm going to spray the SM and primer but now I'm unsure about the top coat.

KingofOld

12-20-03, 01:58 PM

Oh and I've also noticed that the L300 favors green a little. Would staying w/the original top coat remedy this somewhat. I wasn't looking forward to worsening my black levels but it looks like there is hope.

MississippiMan

12-20-03, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by KingofOld
Oh and I've also noticed that the L300 favors green a little. Would staying w/the original top coat remedy this somewhat. I wasn't looking forward to worsening my black levels but it looks like there is hope.

If contrast is King, then the use of Thallo Green must take precident over that of the Red Oxide. Adding any Grey would be self defeating and worse, redundant. The Silver already offers all the Grey needed, it's the vibrancy offered by the white in the Top Coat that needs tempering with a little 'contrasty inclined' hue.

Sic 'em.

KingofOld

12-20-03, 02:39 PM

so disregard the red oxide, or just have more thalo green than red oxide (confusion over the word precident). have you compared a screen with red oxide in the formula, vs thalo green in the formula side by side yet?

Richum

12-20-03, 03:24 PM

Since the viscosity/thickness of the SM is such an issue, how about placing the paint container in a hot tap water bath to soak a while and there by raise its temperature and lower its viscositiy? I would imagine a small styrofoam cooler with the lid on for 5 to 10 mins just prior to spraying might do the job. Then perhaps larger nozzle diameters would be unesscessay.

MM you willing to try this on your next attempt if you don't think it will degrade the SM in any way? The SM container says use product when the surface air temp is between 50 to 90 F...hey got to be less viscous at 90 than 50 I would think(use the T word again)

MississippiMan

12-20-03, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by KingofOld
so disregard the red oxide, or just have more thalo green than red oxide (confusion over the word precident). have you compared a screen with red oxide in the formula, vs thalo green in the formula side by side yet?

Oh, fer goodness sake! I slipped in a "i" where a "e" shoulda been. But used in the context it was, it should have bean prefectly cleer.

pre··dent
Pronunciation: pri-'sE-d&nt, 'pre-s&-d&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin praecedent-, praecedens, present participle of praecedere
Date: 15th century
: prior in time, order, arrangement, or significance

There now.

The MM mix is very neutral, and will accentuate any pigment added to the mix. It would not take much at all to adversely add too much color.

We / you cannot alter the properties of the Silver. The white oxides in the MM Top Coat appear to be muting Blacks a very little. Since Grey is renown for increasing contrast, and Thallo Green has proven to do like wise, and since the SM has all the Grey needed, the obvious selection is the Thallo.

Green & Red Makes Brown. As in Mud. I'd not venture to mix both in a neutral mix unless a brownish earth tone was my goal.

The CMRA-MM SD/MM Plexi test screen reposted below, in the upper right center, shows a SD/MM test panel containing the Red.

No, no side by side comparisons have been done between either/or.

It's not necessary for me to do so, the physics and materials involved tell me what results to expect. Too error on the side of cation would mean adding in too little to make a difference. The blacks without the Thallo Green are as good as any your ever likely to see, when accompanied by such color, clarity of detail, and perceived Gain levels.

But we all want nuthin' if not the best, right?

You cannot hurt yourself by doing as I recommend. You CAN help others by delving into the realm of 'being there first' and reporting you findings.

Or you can wait until either of us sort it out, time-wise, and make it irrefutable. That's a Chicken Arse way to go about it. Try the Thallo Green in the MM mix, report back, and perhaps you'll earn the respect and thanks of all those less ready, brave, or unwilling to risk even your small adventure.

And don't you ever bother me again over a little "i" or I'll sic da Ddogs on ya!

Gol Durn it all, fergot to post the pic. See it below, about two posts down.

MississippiMan

12-20-03, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by Richum
Since the viscosity/thickness of the SM is such an issue, how about placing the paint container in a hot tap water bath to soak a while and there by raise its temperature and lower its viscosity? I would imagine a small styrofoam cooler with the lid on for 5 to 10 just prior to spraying might do the job. Then perhaps larger nozzle diameters would be unnecessary.

MM you willing to try this on your next attempt if you don't think it will degrade the SM in any way? The SM container says use product when the surface air temp is between 50 to 90 F...hey got to be less viscous at 90 than 50 I would think(use the T word again)

Once again I say, It couldn't hurt. The physics make sense. In keeping with that line of reasoning, both an increase in nozzle diameter AND a raising of the temperature of 'water diluted' SM to 90 degrees would each together help make the paint flow more readily.You might even get by with slightly less pressure, though I doubt it.

It's easily tested, but Children, I own NO spray equipment. It was I convinced CMRA to ante up and go that route. In New Jersey last month, it was my Dealer who bit the bullet for that expense.

I'm at my best when telling others how best to spend their money. Prior to both instances, most who know me know I was at the least, ambivalent about the need to spray anything due to my own acquired Rolling and Wet Sanding skills. It was the advent of the Plexi solution, and the obvious need to facilitate a easy, even coat on same that brought spraying into the realm of consideration on my part.

I was fortunate enough to get to do it first on the 14' New Jersey Monster. Once you tackle something that big, and reap the successful rewards, everything else seems pretty easy. I was hooked, but still, the next two screens done were rolled.

Now, and I sincerely mean this, I'm going to get my own rig. I'll undoubtedly combine both Spraying and Rolling at times, and Spray exclusively at others. Smaller screens can readily be sprayed, but really big ones will benefit more from rolling paints on such as the SM. Top Coats stand the most to gain from spraying, and that's what we all must work together on.
(If you ever meet me, you'll find that in reality, I have always been adept at spraying. Bad lisp, don't cha know?)

MississippiMan

12-20-03, 03:48 PM

SD/MM .....In all it's Glory

Upper right center

<<< Screen Shot courtesy of CMRA >>>

1Time

12-20-03, 03:51 PM

MM, I am grateful for all your help and efforts. I'm truely hanging on your every word of experience and direction.

I was going to buy the Z2 but then I got a deal on an In Focus LP750 for $580 instead. It's an older LCD rated at 900 lumens with a 300:1 CR. So I'll see how well it does with my "superplex" and then trade up to the Z2 next year if needed.

I plan to buy buy the following for my top coat:
- 1 quart of Behr Deep Base (1300)
- 1 quart Behr Ultra Pure White Flat
- 1 quart Beir White Opal Perlescence
- Thalo Green (1/96th of an oz)

I wish I could swing spraying instead of rolling, but I just can't. I'm thinking I may thin the latex paints of the top coat with some distilled water to make rolling thin/even applications easier. And then I'll try out the screen and if needed apply a 3rd top coat if the 2 coats appear too translucent.

All comments and suggestions are appreciated.

1Time

12-20-03, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by MississippiMan
SD/MM .....In all it's Glory

Upper right center

<<< Screen Shot courtesy of CMRA >>>

The panels with her left eye and her mouth look excellent, and the panel with her right eye looks acceptable but not as good. Thanks for the pic.

MississippiMan

12-20-03, 04:13 PM

Originally posted by 1Time
MM, I am grateful for all your help and efforts. I'm truely hanging on your every word of experience and direction.

I was going to buy the Z2 but then I got a deal on an In Focus LP750 for $580 instead. It's an older LCD rated at 900 lumens with a 300:1 CR. So I'll see how well it does with my "superplex" and then trade up to the Z2 next year if needed.

Oh ouch. What a reduction in choice! I'd rather get a Z1 or X1 myself.
Good luck with that PJ, the 300:1 CR, and the SDE.
You have the higher Lumens though, so I strongly suggest that you DO add 1/96th Oz. of Lamp Black as well to slightly grey up the Top Coat and give the Thallo a little bit of extra help. It worked well with ME and the Top coat should still be A LOT lighter by far. If you mix in the Lamp Black and see almost no difference, try only one more droplet at most. Ditto with the Thallo

We gotta make up for that 300:1 CR business. Thats so weak as to be scary. But it does offer quite the challenge, doesn't it?

I plan to buy buy the following for my top coat:
- 1 quart of Behr Deep Base (1300)
- 1 quart Behr Ultra Pure White Flat
- 1 quart Beir White Opal Perlescence
- Thalo Green (1/96th of an oz)

I wish I could swing spraying instead of rolling, but I just can't. I'm thinking I may thin the latex paints of the top coat with some distilled water to make rolling thin/even applications easier. And then I'll try out the screen and if needed apply a 3rd top coat if the 2 coats appear too translucent.

All comments and suggestions are appreciated.

Keep to adding no more than 2 Oz filtered water per quart if your gonna try that, but be advised, the White Opal suggests such an action ONLY when spraying, and the other paints might becoame too slimey, making it difficult to roll on evenly in a different way than the mix affords otherwise. You'd be better off practicing the "Dry Roller" method on a board, (ya got plenty of Top Coat so don't fret about the amount used to acclimate yourself...) and sticking to the mix as is. It's a proven method and carries much less risk.

Iffin ya do water down the whiskey, then do so at the Depo where they can shake it up real good fer ya.

KingofOld

12-20-03, 04:25 PM

Oh, fer goodness sake! I slipped in a "i" where a "e" shoulda been. But used in the context it was, it should have bean prefectly cleer.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
when you said the word "precident" I wasn't sure if that meant more thalo green than red oxide or if thalo green replaces red oxide...its all cristal cleer now. but thanks for the definition anyway.

KingofOld

12-20-03, 04:26 PM

I'm having a hell of a time finding a piece of glass, a 1/8th inch 4x8 piece of acrylic ranges from $130 (in stock of course) to $50 (out of stock of course)

MississippiMan

12-20-03, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by KingofOld
I'm having a hell of a time finding a piece of glass, a 1/8th inch 4x8 piece of acrylic ranges from $130 (in stock of course) to $50 (out of stock of course)

Stick with it, it's worth the effort. The SD/MM method ain't goin' newhere .

Consider this...with the increase in quality, you can sit closer so a smaller screen can offer just as big a viewing aspect ratio as a larger screen does when sitting further back. That difference might well put you into a size Plexi more readily available, and give you room for another row of seating too boot! And the smaller the screen, the brighter the image. You can't lose!

Size doesn't always matter, it's the performance that counts

You can quote me on that!

1Time

12-20-03, 04:58 PM

Gotta go with your advise MM, so I'll skip mixing any water and add 1/96th oz. of the Lamp Black. Also, I'll practice the dry roller method on the smooth side of a spare piece of hardboard to get the technique down first. Yes, I wonder if this older pj will cut it, but if not I'll sell it on eBay and spring for the Z2, problem solved. Thanks again.

KingofOld

12-20-03, 05:26 PM

I have found a bunch of 3x6 pieces I'll give that a shot if I have to but, my local hardware store said they might get more 4x8's in. My screen right now is only 4x7 approximately right now, so it wouldn't be a total loss if I had to drop down to 3x6. How are you guys planning to mount this screen up. I figured on putting it right on top of my old screen...can you screw threw this? Is there a special type of glue?

1Time

12-20-03, 05:51 PM

KingofOld, I'm using a 4' x 8' x 1/8" hardboard for the backing and I'm framing with 1 1/2" x 1 1/2" x 8' strips of fir. I'm thinking I'll drill through the plexi and backing and into the frame as a countersink, then use washers on the front on the plexi and wood screw into the frame around the 4 sides of the screen. The frame will be about 4' x 8' around the edge with a 4' divider in the middle forming two 4' x 4' squares with the frame. I'm hoping the gray paint on the back of the plexi will bond with the hardboard backing. I guess I could use some glue on the hardboard backing to insure a good bond??? I'll then attach metal "L" braces on the sides of the frame and attach them to 2 shelving units suspending the screen between them.

MississippiMan

12-20-03, 09:00 PM

1tIME,

SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD tRIM pLAN.

Off to see LOTR TROTK agin, this time with the wife.

Who knows, might sneak a screen shot or two.

MM

KingofOld

12-20-03, 09:22 PM

nice plan 1time. Right now I have a frame made out of 2x2's with dazian matte white screen material streched around it. Its attached to the wall with L brackets...kind of like a shelf though because I had to get the screen out further because of a window (blocked off now). Anyways my screen is 4x7 and I don't have a border on the screen itself as the entire wall surroundign the screen is covered with duventyn cloth. So I would like to make a borderless plexi screen. Screwing threw the plexi probably would be noticeable around the edges. Is there any way I could glue the screen right over my old screen? If not I'll just screw the plexi screen in and put a 1" border all around. I hate to lose 2" of screen size but will if there isn't an alternative.

Have fun at ROTK again, I saw it Tuesday night and would love to go again.

1Time

12-21-03, 01:22 AM

Thanks for the encouragement MississippiMan.

KingofOld, with a duventyn cloth wall I can see why you'd want to use the full screen. I had considered how to do this but didn't come up with anything as workable and simple as using the screws and washers. Plus, at a viewing distance of about 11' I doubt I'll miss the 2" anyway. I'll use a black felt boarder to cover the washers and shape the length of the screen to size. Hope your screen works out for you.

1Time

KingofOld

12-21-03, 06:16 AM

yeah I probably wouldn't miss the 2" anyway either but I won't lose them unless I have to...I'm still trying to figure something out.

Kamel407

12-22-03, 07:57 AM

I'd love to see SuperPlex up against some of the big boys, maybe MM, CRMA, and Tryg can get something in the works for another shoot out.

CMRA

12-22-03, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by Kamel407
I'd love to see SuperPlex up against some of the big boys, maybe MM, CRMA, and Tryg can get something in the works for another shoot out.

It's in the works...in Canada, this Spring. Do you really want to wait that long? Contact MM for the details.

Kornbiz247

12-22-03, 10:28 AM

How many coats of the MM would I be spraying on? also if spraying its only 2oz distilled water per quart to dilute it.

CMRA

12-22-03, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by Kamel407
I said it before and I'll say it again.

Perfect your formula, and before you put it up against the big dogs, COPYRIGHT it. Miracle Screen or SilverPlex would be good names.

Perhaps good advice, it profit were a motivation. Can this not just be a gift from us to you and all like minded people? I'm in favor of just sharing the joy, free to all who want it. There's a tremendous satisfaction when you can build something on your own, also.

Trepidati0n

12-22-03, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by Kamel407
I said it before and I'll say it again.

Perfect your formula, and before you put it up against the big dogs, COPYRIGHT it. Miracle Screen or SilverPlex would be good names.

No reason to..why, they don't want one person/company to make a unique profit on it. Also, if anybody else "copyrights" or "patents" it, we got prior art here to put the whole thing in the poop-house if they decide to put on their "Cease and Desist" pants.

Making money on a "discovery" is cool and all, but unless you want to make it your life and get lots of lawyers whose only motivation is their pocket book, may god have mercy on your soul. Patents/Copyrights today are a joke because lawyers love to fight everything and put small companies into the drink. Lawyers have absolutely no loyalty to the company they work for, they only use the company they work for to make a $. The patent/copyright slide is very slippery...

-tReP

Kamel407

12-22-03, 10:56 AM

I said it before and I'll say it again.

Perfect your formula, and before you put it up against the big dogs, COPYRIGHT it. Miracle Screen or SilverPlex would be good names.

Richum

12-22-03, 11:32 AM

Stopping someone from copying your design is a difficult thing. If you patent, you must send your detailed plans to the copyright office and then they can be had by anyone for a fee. So you give your plans away.

Now a trademark is just as important and a lot easier to enforce. Try putting out a softdrink called Coca Cola and see what happens.

I am presently heating the Behr SM in a hot tap water bath, and as expected its viscosity has decreased. I am going to try and spray it using a regular touchup gun this afternoon, just to test its effect.

aces-n-eights

12-22-03, 01:45 PM

I have a friend that owns a glass shop -- auto, residential,... I asked him if he could get a sheet of plexi 5x10. He called back a few hours later and said he could get 4x10 or 6x10! I confirmed that his supplier jumped from 4x10 to 6x10, skipping 5x10. Yes. It's a bit spendy - $250 for the 6x10 with free freight if I just add it to one of his orders. He estimated that it would cost about $100 for freight if I ordered it myself. YMMV.

So bottom line... If you're looking for a BHPOP (Big Honkin' Piece of Plexi) you might want to check with your local glass shop. I can try to find out his supplier if anyone is interested...
w

aces-n-eights

12-22-03, 01:46 PM

Sorry to not add this to previous post... BHPOP is 3/16" thick
w

MississippiMan

12-22-03, 04:43 PM

Man o' mighty,

This thread is going places. It's a joy to see some comittment and action, unstead of repititios posts.

Now..., wait until ya all see what's in store and upcoming. BIG STUFF.

HAPPY NEW YEAR !!!!!!???????

You betcha !!

PS

Kornbiz247 asked;

How many coats of the MM would I be spraying on?

<<<<<<<< At least two even thin coats, and a 'duster' if needed to even out any weak areas.>>>>>>>

also if spraying its only 2oz distilled water per quart to dilute it.

<<<<<<That's right, but either power stir it to death, or have it shaken by Home Depot's machine. Twice.>>>>>>>

Kornbiz247

12-22-03, 07:26 PM

got it. thanks for all the help MM and CMRA! you guys are awsome

CMRA

12-23-03, 02:18 AM

Originally posted by Kornbiz247
got it. thanks for all the help MM and CMRA! you guys are awsome

Glad we could help. MM and I both appreciate the compliment.

ianken

12-23-03, 03:50 AM

So, what happens if I use one of these with my PLV70? Viewers eyes burst into flames? Sunburn? Light cannon blow a hole in the wall? :-)

Been wanting to try a DIY screen and this seems quite elaborate and appeals to my nerdy side.

Something to tinker with after the holidays.

rlundy

12-23-03, 09:07 AM

I've read this post with certain interest as I had been lloking to pair a Silverstar with my X1 once the home reconfiguration is done and I actually have a wall on which to mount a screen (I've been movng the X1 around the house using a portable screen made of Dazian Celtic Cloth). Since I already have the Air Compressor, I'll just need to buy the water separator and the HVLP gun from Harbor freight.

MM & CRMA-Some Qs:

1. What do you guys estimate the gain of this to be? My personal feeling is that the X1 needs some help when the white segment is off.
2. How is this solution at dealing with low level ambient light? Nothing will hit the screen directly, but I don't like watching in complete darkness, plus I watch more daytime sports than movies.
3. When spraying, do you guys spray "down" with the plex on the ground or "out" with the plex mounted on some sort of stand/easel?
4. is there any surface prep for the plex? I think I'm sort of amazed that latex will stick without some sort of scuffing of the surface. Do you at least wipe it down with acetone or mineral spirits before spraying?

Thanks again for all you guy's work. Its "illuminating"!

Robert

MississippiMan

12-23-03, 09:13 AM

here's a PLV 70 at work on ME, and adjusting the SD?MM mix to accomodate it will be a snap.

MississippiMan

12-23-03, 09:15 AM

...and another!

MississippiMan

12-23-03, 09:17 AM

Don't let me down.......Bruuuuce!

MississippiMan

12-23-03, 09:29 AM

Talk about fawning for the camera!

MississippiMan

12-23-03, 09:31 AM

Where all "keeper's belong!

MississippiMan

12-23-03, 09:32 AM

I wish he wasn't so sneaky acting

MississippiMan

12-23-03, 09:35 AM

This shot has 'teeth"!

Note the smoothly graduating color detail.

....and this screen is not complete. First coat.

MississippiMan

12-23-03, 09:41 AM

Here's a screen size reference shot.

9' 7" diagonal

You saw the wall the screen is painted on several post back in this series.

Now gasp in wonder when you read this.

The surface your seeing is nothing but straight ME, with additional tweaking of only the essential components to offest 2200 lumens!

This surface wil still be getting 2 coats of SM, and the MM top Coat, so you just know there will be more SSs' to come.

But for all your simple minded ME wannabees, this series should show that with high lumens, not a single deficit that ME has can not be easily accomodated for through adapting the mix. Even when there is a great disparity in PJs being used.

CMRA

12-23-03, 10:03 AM

Kamel407

12-23-03, 10:08 AM

115" 16:9 with a PLV-70 on straight ME?
Damn! Makes me excited with my huge wall and 20' distance for the couches.

CMRA

12-23-03, 12:31 PM

the latest Super Deluxe comparison shots are now posted on scoob5555's thread starting with post #472.

MississippiMan

12-23-03, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by rlundy
I've read this post with certain interest as I had been lloking to pair a Silverstar with my X1 once the home reconfiguration is done and I actually have a wall on which to mount a screen (I've been movng the X1 around the house using a portable screen made of Dazian Celtic Cloth). Since I already have the Air Compressor, I'll just need to buy the water separator and the HVLP gun from Harbor freight.

MM & CRMA-Some Qs:

1. What do you guys estimate the gain of this to be? My personal feeling is that the X1 needs some help when the white segment is off.

CMRA & I disagree on the following point. He's a conservative, cautious Guy, who doesn't own a Light meter to accurately make direct measurements, therefore, his statement should be considered as observational guesswork. Good gueswork, but guesswork nonetheless.

I can guess too. Through direct observation (..without a Meter as well. Gotta be fair,) by me over the last 8 screens I've done, including the SD/MM testing CMRA & I did together, and the 9' er I used at a recent Homeshow presented me with enough and varied input to say this. The IS a definite gain in Brightness at the screen surface. Gains in Contrast help offset what might be too much of a good thing. do I have any figures? No. But at this Springs' Screen Shootout, the whole genre will get analyzed to the max.

How does a "High Gain" screen make increases in 'off the screen" luminosity? By utilizing highly reflective materials, not white or grey.
(I wonder why they call it, "SilverStar"?) But trade offs occur. If a SilverStar or any other HG screen design can actually amplify light reflectivity to the + factor, then why make a statement like CMRA did? Obviously, light explodes from the SD/MM application, yet does so smoothly across the entire spectrum.

2. How is this solution at dealing with low level ambient light? Nothing will hit the screen directly, but I don't like watching in complete darkness, plus I watch more daytime sports than movies.

It's the PJ you choose more than the screen that needs to rule here. Start out too anemic in the Lumen dept. and you can always improve on, but not exceed a certain level of results. Use a Light Cannon with great CR values, and you can adapt these screen formulas to fit ANY situation. Anything over 1500 lumen's will do almost anything you want it to if you don't scrub of lumen's at the screen.

Your X1 has great contrast. You need only to be able to utilize every lumen available. Past Top Coats I've used that consisted of GOO CRT White worked to greatly enhance an X1's performance, primarily because of a few particular ingredients that augment the light reflectivity as well as work to adjust color. Sound familiar? It should. MM is nothing but my own adaptation of Goo, with more variable available that said stuff.

Cheaper too. But only for those of you who want savings combined with the extra steps required to achieve exemplary results. That means great screens that brighten scenes beyond your dreams (or so it seems)at prices that scream. "Cheap".

For an X1 installation where you want some ambient light, I suggest SD/MM on Plexi that is screw mounted on a backer of Hard Board, and for you to impart a 3 degree bend in the assembly. You'll get all the benefits of the X1's performance/price, an image that is as bright as it can be without creating additional resolution, contrast, or 'grainy" detail problems, and the slight curvature will reject ambient light far better than any flat application. You don't have to do much bending to improve the specs., not nearly as much as MFg's do with Ultra high gain products.

BUT. you cannot expect even a light cannon to offset direct or strong ambient light that wases across a screen's surface. You must at the least accommodate a "light absorbing" design into your rooms area surrounding the screen position on all sides (...excepting the front between you and the screen, you ninny!) You must prevent reflected light from bouncing from adjoining surfaces at angles that will wash the screen. It doesn't have to be black, in fact I have a Client painting his ceiling with a incredible paint that absorbs low level Ambient light, yet offers an attractive color and low sheen under normal light. What is this miracle finish?

ME. The same altered ME the latest screen shots I took were shot on.

I do believe the Plexi / Glass method combined with special tweaks will take you farther down the road toward excelling on a variety of performance fronts, and even in the extreme end of our madness, for less money than any MFG. screen can at this point in time remotely approach.

To close out this little dissenting number, let me offer this final assessment and potentially damning opinion.

There IS additional gain acheived with these exotic Plexi & Glass formulas. It isn't on the order of magnitude of dedicated Super High Gain screens, but it certainly compares with standards set by normal "High Gain" screens with respectable specifications. The cost difference, and total ability to customize everything from size, to position, to ambient light considerations, and of course, the cost difference, all make this a "MUST HAVE/DO" option for anyone who is remotely so inclined to attempt it.

That all the rest of the new, smarter, and cost conscience crowd is breathing down the Screen Mfg. industry's collective necks is what makes it all the more essential that CMRA STOP TELLING PEOPLE THAT THE SD/MM PLEXI SCREEN IN NEUTRAL IN GAIN. IT IS NOT, OR YOUR PUNY, LIGHT STARVED Z1 WOULD NOT MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE WE SEE/SAW TOGETHER. Don't make me come back there. :eek:

All this talk (typing) leads to two obvious ends. One, we DO need to include +/- light gain values to our repitour if we are to honestly evaluate and be able to recommend a specific course of action to posters such as.....who was tha....., oh; rlundy. Musn't forget him.

Second. I need a drink. Typing is dry, dusty work.

3. When spraying, do you guys spray "down" with the plex on the ground or "out" with the plex mounted on some sort of stand/easel?

ALWAYS spray on the vertical plane. And do so when Rolling as well. Paint depends often on gravity to evenly distribute it's mass, and cause clumps to run together into smooth texture. This occurs more readily on a vertical plane,, and celings are the hardest to accommodate, hence, you see most ceilings sprayed. You don't see many folks laying their wall flat to roll 'em so we will dispense with any discussion down those ends, save that roll technique depends on even pressure, something difficult to maintain while standing and pointing and extending a Roller extension rod.

4. is there any surface prep for the plex? I think I'm sort of amazed that latex will stick without some sort of scuffing of the surface. Do you at least wipe it down with acetone or mineral spirits before spraying?

Cleaning it IS essential since any oil or smudges shine affect the adeasen of the paint, and also show up through the finish.

Sand the raw, unpainted Plexi surface, and you've lost the clarity that helps Plexi work so well. Sanding 'in between' the rolled SM & Top Coat layers helps to both smooth out imperfections and further thin each layer than is possible when rolling coats.

Spraying Plexi or Glass, and getting thin coats becomes easy, dependable work with the right equipment. To the negative point , due to viscosity and variables in Gun settings and performance, you might find that the coats go on too thin, or with too restricted a fan pattern to cover a large area in a normal amount of time.

Keeping the gun pointing straight to the work, at the proper distance from the surface, and maintaining a proper "pass" speed, all determine how well you coats go on, and look without major touch up of weak areas being necessary on the next coat.

Good news for the "sanding challenged", a good spray job can usually omit sanding altogether.....unless you make a "Boo Boo".

Thanks again for all you guy's work. Its "illuminating"!

Robert

THATs what I'VE been saying all along, ever since taking a beating in October over my comment, "It looks a bright and clear as any HDTV Plasma." But I was right then with a much simpler and underacheiving procedure. This stuf is far superior, hence my excitement. For us all, and our futures. :cool:

rlundy

12-23-03, 02:10 PM

MM-

Thanks for the extensive commentary. It will be printed and handy when the spray hits the plex (maybe next week!).

Mandarax has spoken several times on his screen shootout thread and elsewhere that the Goo CRT white really does something for the X1. I've seen my X1 on a small matte white screen and on the Dazian Celtic cloth-the dazian-while great for portability-loses a bit of reflectivity to the matte white due to so much light getting thru it-but it does illuminate! Increasing this illumination is my goal. My ambient situation is not really that bad-as I said, its "around the corner light, light seeping in thru blinds (the sun is off the only window after 10:00AM), etc. I can use my X1 with the Dazian cloth screen with great results even when we turn on a light at the back of the room (about 90 watts worth).

And if the X1 isn't bright enough it can go back to being portable and I'll upgrade to an LT240K.

Thanks again.

CoryW

12-23-03, 04:50 PM

Well, this has been a reading adventure! I appreciate all the great experimentation.

I own an HS-10 with the CC40R filter...so the lumen output is pretty low. But I want better blacks as well. Would the infamous Superplex formula (with Thalo Green substituted for the Red Oxide in the top coat) be a good match for my HS-10? Or should I scrap the Superplex approach and stick to the simple ME formula? I have a friend who is a professional painter, so in utilizing his help, I want to choose one method or the other.

I'm currently using a matte white screen, so anything is an improvement at this point.

JimmyDaves

12-23-03, 05:35 PM

Cory:

I have the same setup: Sony HS10 and CC40R filter and I would be interested in knowing the same thing. Jimmy

ianken

12-23-03, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by MississippiMan
here's a PLV 70 at work on ME, and adjusting the SD?MM mix to accomodate it will be a snap.

I'm in TLA overload land.

ME == Misty Evening
SD == ?
MM == "mississippimud" mixture as per the PDF file.

Suggestions: some diagrams in the PDF that show what sides of the plexiglass the paint goes would be cool as well as a glossary of acronyms and abreviations.

CMRA

12-23-03, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by ianken
I'm in TLA overload land.

ME == Misty Evening
SD == ?
MM == "mississippimud" mixture as per the PDF file.

Suggestions: some diagrams in the PDF that show what sides of the plexiglass the paint goes would be cool as well as a glossary of acronyms and abreviations.

SD is Super Deluxe. SD/MM is Super Deluxe with MississippiMan's topcoat. I should know, he left enough of it here. Going 'overload'? Don't foget the silver formulations.

Richum

12-23-03, 08:21 PM

CMRA,

I was amazed at your mirror/mm topcoat screen shots in scoob's thread. When searching for a source of the acryllic sheet, I saw several places selling the acrylic mirrors as sheet stock. As I remember on even offered it in 5'x10' sheets. Of course you could not re-use it, but if one wanted a light weight alternative that does no shatter it could be the way to go. Of course it is a $100 + but still considering the cost of a store bought screen that would perform as good...

Just thinking again.

MississippiMan

12-23-03, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by Richum
CMRA,

I was amazed at your mirror/mm topcoat screen shots in scoob's thread. When searching for a source of the acryllic sheet, I saw several places selling the acrylic mirrors as sheet stock. As I remember on even offered it in 5'x10' sheets. Of course you could not re-use it, but if one wanted a light weight alternative that does no shatter it could be the way to go. Of course it is a $100 + but still considering the cost of a store bought screen that would perform as good...

Just thinking again.

Man, why is it people tell us these things, but don't include a Tel. number or link?

Think again Man, do we want a dry synopsis, or some meat to chew on?

Go Atkins on me, Baby!

Give it up! Who's are those sources. If I can collect enough of them geographically, there will be almost no reason anyone anywhere could have for not getting DIY SD/MM Screens underway.

CMRA

12-23-03, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by Richum
CMRA,

I was amazed at your mirror/mm topcoat screen shots in scoob's thread. When searching for a source of the acryllic sheet, I saw several places selling the acrylic mirrors as sheet stock. As I remember on even offered it in 5'x10' sheets. Of course you could not re-use it, but if one wanted a light weight alternative that does no shatter it could be the way to go. Of course it is a $100 + but still considering the cost of a store bought screen that would perform as good...

Just thinking again.
Well, don't be bashful. Tell all you know, ie, sizes, costs, where to order, shipping costs, etc. The whole purpose of that post was to expand the possibilities for DIYers. For instance, a member may be challenged to find an affordable sheet of plexi in his/her locale but at the same time have an old wardrobe door collecting dust in the basement. You get the idea.
So, for the benefit of all, please post your info. Thanks, CMRA

MississippiMan

12-23-03, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by CMRA
Well, don't be bashful. Tell all you know, ie, sizes, costs, where to order, shipping costs, etc. You get the idea.
So, for the benefit of all, please post your info. Thanks, CMRA

Hey, I said it first.

Go find your own poster to rag out on, He's mine!

Richum

12-23-03, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by MississippiMan
Hey, I said it first.

Go find your own poster to rag out on, He's mine!

Hey, I am doing the best I can. Tell you what put this in front of your HVLP and spray it.

http://www.delviesplastics.com/mirror%20acrylic.htm (Has Prices)

http://www.sdplastics.com/

http://www.americanacrylics.com/mirror.htm

http://www.sloanswoodshop.com/acrylic%20sheets.htm (1/4" x 12" x 24" for $9.00) Test purposes?

http://www.bunkerplastics.com/pas_mp_clear.html
|
|bunker plastics available sizes and thickness'
|
Clear Acrylic Mirror
.060" 4x8
.080" 4x8, 5x8, 6x8
.118" 4x8, 5x8, 6x8, 4x10, 5x10 <---------- Interesting sizes
.177" 4x8, 5x8, 6x8
.220" 4x8, 5x8, 6x8, 4x10, 5x10
.236" 4x8, 5x8, 6x8

Omzig

12-23-03, 10:27 PM

Hey MM and CMRA

What do you think about the concept of putting a nice white fabric over the acrylic with the silver painted on the back?

It seems that the silver is easy enough to paint on, but the white top coat can be a bit difficult. The cost of fabric would also be much less that the Goo or MM topcoat.

I'm assuming, if you stretched a nice light weight fabric over top of the acrylic you could possibly get the same effect without all the trouble. Albeit with out the fancy pearlescent feature of the MM topcoat.

You might get some hot spotting off the acrylic surface behind the fabric, but you could probably knock that down with some steel wool or 320 sand paper.

Just a thought for all us painting impaired cheapskates.

CMRA

12-23-03, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by MississippiMan
Hey, I said it first.

Go find your own poster to rag out on, He's mine!

Sure you did. But he asked me, specifically, by name.
Thank you Richum for your contribution. CMRA

1Time

12-23-03, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by Omzig
You might get some hot spotting off the acrylic surface behind the fabric, but you could probably knock that down with some steel wool or 320 sand paper.

I like the potential of this idea except for roughing up the plexi to deal with hot-spotting. Maybe painting ME on the fabric would handle it if translucent enough?

CMRA

12-23-03, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Omzig
Hey MM and CMRA

What do you think about the concept of putting a nice white fabric over the acrylic with the silver painted on the back?

Here's one even better for 'cheapskates' as you call 'em or prudent AVSers as I call 'em.
Find a nice flat wall. Tape some aluminum foil (same size as the plexi) on the wall. (use cello tape of course) Lay the plexi over the foil using mirror mounting hardware. Drape and stretch your white cloth atop the plexi.
Project and report your findings.
If it doesn't work out, no problem. You still have your sheet of plexi.
GO FOT IT. And, you can reuse the foil for all your holiday baking.

Omzig

12-23-03, 10:55 PM

I've got a small chunk of think acrylic and a sample board with the silver paint on it already. Dug up a nice white material sample from my wife's quilting supplies. Going to make a little sandwich and compare it to my blackout screen.

I'll let you know if it holds any promise.

CMRA

12-24-03, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by Richum
Hey, I am doing the best I can. Tell you what put this in front of your HVLP and spray it.

http://www.delviesplastics.com/mirror%20acrylic.htm (Has Prices)

http://www.sdplastics.com/

http://www.americanacrylics.com/mirror.htm

http://www.sloanswoodshop.com/acrylic%20sheets.htm (1/4" x 12" x 24" for $9.00) Test purposes?

http://www.bunkerplastics.com/pas_mp_clear.html
|
|bunker plastics available sizes and thickness'
|
Clear Acrylic Mirror
.060" 4x8
.080" 4x8, 5x8, 6x8
.118" 4x8, 5x8, 6x8, 4x10, 5x10 <---------- Interesting sizes
.177" 4x8, 5x8, 6x8
.220" 4x8, 5x8, 6x8, 4x10, 5x10
.236" 4x8, 5x8, 6x8

Interesting stuff. Not exactly 'off-the-shelf' material readily available at HD.
Another thing to inquire about. And I will. Thanks.

Richum

12-24-03, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by CMRA
Interesting stuff. Not exactly 'off-the-shelf' material readily available at HD.
Another thing to inquire about. And I will. Thanks.

I have looked at the Home Depot and Lowes in my area no luck. I have not tried local sign companies. I read that they laser cut this stuff to make 'fake metal letters' for signs. Might try one of those for scraps for testing.

There I go thinking again (very dangerous)

CMRA

12-24-03, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Richum
I have looked at the Home Depot and Lowes in my area no luck. I have not tried local sign companies. I read that they laser cut this stuff to make 'fake metal letters' for signs. Might try one of those for scraps for testing.

There I go thinking again (very dangerous)

From thinking minds come 'dangerously' exciting screen solutions. You never know until you stumble forward. Keep at it.

KingofOld

12-24-03, 11:20 AM

glass supply shops tend to carry the stuff or at least on order. I've had varying success finding the stuff for a good price w/out having to order like 5 sheets. Just call around. My HD only had up to 3x6 sizes.

Joe Przybylski

12-24-03, 12:14 PM

Hi CMRA and MississippiMan;

I'm wondering, have either of you (or anyone here on the forum) actually created a full-size screen of this formula yet? Or just small samples?

After reading about hotspotting, i'm wondering what the findings are. Also, has anyone been bothered by "sparklies" since we're using alot of pearlescent/metallic materials in this mixture, that may be a concern.

EDIT: I'm referring to the Silver/Plexi/topcoat method...

CMRA

12-24-03, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by Joe Przybylski
Hi CMRA and MississippiMan;

I'm wondering, have either of you (or anyone here on the forum) actually created a full-size screen of this formula yet? Or just small samples?

After reading about hotspotting, i'm wondering what the findings are. Also, has anyone been bothered by "sparklies" since we're using alot of pearlescent/metallic materials in this mixture, that may be a concern.

EDIT: I'm referring to the Silver/Plexi/topcoat method...

Not yet. And I don't recommend anybody go full size till they are good and ready. Make sure you master the samples first. This is new territory for everyone, you know. MM and I go round and round on this issue. Bless his soul, he keeps forgetting he has years of experience with screen fabrication. Many here have yet to even roll a screen one time. I'll accept no responsibility for anyone flubbing up.
Hot spots and sparklies are a 100% NON ISSUE. ZERO. NIL. NADA.

Richum

12-24-03, 02:39 PM

In conversation with a local Binswanger Glass outlet, I was assured they could order the clear acrylic mirror and deliver in two days at a cost of $150 for a 4' x 8' sheet. I didn't inquire about larger sizes, just didn't think to.

I asked why they didn't stock it, the answer, it scracthes too easy and we have lost too much to damage. Hmmmmm....I guess it may take gentle hands to play with this stuff. Soft clean surfaces during fabrication and careful handling would be the order of the day.

Might even require a rolled or sprayed protective coat of primer on the mirrored side.

CMRA

12-24-03, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by Richum
In conversation with a local Binswanger Glass outlet, I was assured they could order the clear acrylic mirror and deliver in two days at a cost of $150 for a 4' x 8' sheet. I didn't inquire about larger sizes, just didn't think to.

I asked why they didn't stock it, the answer, it scracthes too easy and we have lost too much to damage. Hmmmmm....I guess it may take gentle hands to play with this stuff. Soft clean surfaces during fabrication and careful handling would be the order of the day.

Might even require a rolled or sprayed protective coat of primer on the mirrored side.

Thanks for the input, Richum. I went to my local glass dealer today also. Closed on Christmas Eve.
This acrylic glass does sound exciting however.

Kornbiz247

12-24-03, 03:02 PM

would glass be the easier choice b/c you only have 1 side to paint? seeing the screenshots posted, I dont see any evidence of plexi being better than glass. what are others thoughts? Is it just a matter of finding the stuff and how much you want to pay for a cheap screen?

CMRA

12-24-03, 03:18 PM

CMRA

12-25-03, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Kornbiz247
would glass be the easier choice b/c you only have 1 side to paint? seeing the screenshots posted, I dont see any evidence of plexi being better than glass. what are others thoughts? Is it just a matter of finding the stuff and how much you want to pay for a cheap screen?

When you say glass, I assume you mean mirror, right? A clear glass pane would require a reflective backing just like the plexi.
The real reason the wardrobe mirror may work for some is because it is so easy to acquire and comes framed which means easier and safer handling. It also can be reused and even repainted.
The trade off is it is very rigid and heavy. It will work, especially for someone who just might have some 'hanging' around.

Kornbiz247

12-25-03, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by CMRA
When you say glass, I assume you mean mirror, right? A clear glass pane would require a reflective backing just like the plexi.
The real reason the wardrobe mirror may work for some is because it is so easy to acquire and comes framed which means easier and safer handling. It also can be reused and even repainted.
The trade off is it is very rigid and heavy. It will work, especially for someone who just might have some 'hanging' around.

Yes I meant a mirror. I really like the idea of starting over with a mirror in case I mess up (first time, just might). It all depends on which I can find the easiest and the compromise in price.

BTW as a side note, how many silver metallic bottles do I have to get to get two coats on the back. I looked around HD and saw smaller plastic canisters (the ones with the black screw lids) and was wondering if thats the right SM. I think it was #745 or something around that.

Also found a 72X36 sheet of 1/8 plexi for $25! I planned on an 83 diag image, and that makes it perfectly. If you need a bigger screen, the HD by my house did not carry anything larger.

I think I'm leaning toward the plexi, because its the exact size I need, just need to attach it to something slightly larger to border it and I should be good to go.

Sorry I must ask this again, but I need to make sure. On the instructions MM says a minimum of 2 sprayed coats of the mud mix. Does this mean I can put 3 on without worrying that not enough light is hitting the metallic behind it and thus would not be as bright as say only 2 coats? Does it work that way?

Thanks for the help guys :)

CMRA

12-25-03, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by Kornbiz247
Sorry I must ask this again, but I need to make sure. On the instructions MM says a minimum of 2 sprayed coats of the mud mix. Does this mean I can put 3 on without worrying that not enough light is hitting the metallic behind it and thus would not be as bright as say only 2 coats? Does it work that way?

Thanks for the help guys :)

That's an important question to ask. We found sparying two even coats did the trick. One coat, too much reflection, hence, you could see the reflected lamp of the PJ. Too much topcoat and you lose the benefit of the SM reflective backcoating. It's a too little-too much proposition.
Why, take a chance? For $3.00 you can buy a test size piece of plexi at HD.
One quart of SM will easily backcoat four 6x3 screens.

MississippiMan

12-25-03, 01:13 PM

Originally posted by Kornbiz247
Yes I meant a mirror. I really like the idea of starting over with a mirror in case I mess up (first time, just might). It all depends on which I can find the easiest and the compromise in price.

Ok, mirrors have some advantages, but more negative aspects than Plexi or even a Hardboard application. One disadvantage of mirrors is that the top coat is ALL you can mess with. Changing up base coats (Silver isn't the ONLY hue, but rather one designed to help 'under 1000 lumen PJs) to different shades of Grey mixed with Thallo Greens or Reds should not be overlooked. A mirror Application might not be ideal or even warranted depending on several factors. You need but just ask your questions to receive a overtly opinionated and pretentious reply. Hey! That what I'm here for anyway, to run you Life. Isn't it? ;)

BTW as a side note, how many silver metallic bottles do I have to get to get two coats on the back. I looked around HD and saw smaller plastic canisters (the ones with the black screw lids) and was wondering if thats the right SM. I think it was #745 or something around that.

If your spraying, 1 Quart (the one you were looking at...) will do it with some to spare.

Also found a 72X36 sheet of 1/8 plexi for $25! I planned on an 83 diag image, and that makes it perfectly. If you need a bigger screen, the HD by my house did not carry anything larger.

I like that kind of reasoning. This SD/MM Plexi application hold as much if not more promise in more modest size screen apps.

I think I'm leaning toward the plexi, because its the exact size I need, just need to attach it to something slightly larger to border it and I should be good to go.

That would be my choice, because it's the right choice. You will NOT screw up. You will have great success.

Sorry I must ask this again, but I need to make sure. On the instructions MM says a minimum of 2 sprayed coats of the mud mix. Does this mean I can put 3 on without worrying that not enough light is hitting the metallic behind it and thus would not be as bright as say only 2 coats? Does it work that way?

Thanks for the help guys :)

It works that way. Two evenly applied coats work well, but if you can see obvious flaws (lighter areas) you want to even it out. With Silver Metallic, we saw the need for a third coat to offset a pinpoint of light marking the PJs lens on the screen. One coat it was there, two it was gone. The resulting screen was the one with the writing in each bottom corner...the one that is the best.

I can only see the need for a thicker topcaot as being vital to offset the increased reflectivity of a mirror. And if higher lumen PJs are used, the top coat will HAVE to contain High Contrast elements like Greys and Greens

MississippiMan

12-25-03, 01:16 PM

I hate you CMRA.

I spent some time that got me "Wife Yelled at" to reply to Korny here, and sure enough, you lurked your way into an answer before me, that parelled mine so close it's scary. AND FRUSTRATING!

I'm goint to walk my Ddogs

Kornbiz247

12-25-03, 03:47 PM

HAHA, thanks for both of your responses. Sorry I got you in trouble with the wife there MM. I appreciate the long response to answer all my questions.

I will test out different techniques on a small plexi sheet before going for the gold. I think I'm all set! I should get my 2HD 1st week of January so ill have pics up around then of my screen and its success!

CMRA

12-25-03, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Kornbiz247
HAHA, thanks for both of your responses. Sorry I got you in trouble with the wife there MM. I appreciate the long response to answer all my questions.

I will test out different techniques on a small plexi sheet before going for the gold. I think I'm all set! I should get my 2HD 1st week of January so ill have pics up around then of my screen and its success!

It's been over 4 hours since MM posted anything. I guess it's safe to go back into the water now. Those long responses...what can I say?

The 2HD on a 6x3 should be absolutely stunning. Best wishes. Tonight I may even have treat for everyone...well maybe.

MississippiMan

12-25-03, 05:48 PM

I heard that.

doug goldberg

12-25-03, 06:18 PM

Note to MM and CRMA. Merry Xmas. Completed a plexi SM/MM screen. Decided to roll my own. Yes it is possible to roll all this goo and get good results. The SM was the worst. Projector is Sanyo Z2. Screen is 80" diag so I have what looks like a giant plasma. Very, very watchable in ambient light. Results are spectacular! Used 3 coats of MM (very thin 3rd coat). No hot spotting or other anomalies. Screen mounted to 1x2 frame. The HD crew got a real charge out of the making the custom MM mix after they learned what I was doing with it. They now refer to me as "Projector Man". Thanks guys you saved me a ton of dough and allowed me get "involved" in my HT project to a level beyond my expectations. Now I need to get my SMART system out and cal this bad boy. I have some pictures of the project along the way and once I'm cal'd I shoot so after shots.

1Time

12-25-03, 07:43 PM

doug goldberg, glad to hear your great results and Merry Christmas. I'm almost set up to roll my SM/MM superplex. I bought from HD yesterday and am preparing to roll SM soon. HD wouldn't mix the 3 quarts of MM together for me although they did mix in drops of Thalo Green and Lamp Black. Did HD mix the MM for you or did you hand mix? Thanks.

CMRA

12-25-03, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by CMRA
Tonight I may even have treat for everyone...well maybe.

Well, without too much fanfare...the first FULL SCREEN SUPER DELUXE screen shots ever posted,
For the record, let me assure everyone, my camera was NOT up to the task. They simply look so much better on the screen.
My apologies for being redundant, but you have to have like to compare.
Also, as a tribute to my friend and everybody's favorite poster, I elected to use the infamous "MississippiMud" topcoat rather than my own.

SOOOOO...#1

CMRA

12-25-03, 08:30 PM

four more coming.

CMRA

12-25-03, 08:32 PM

remember her? three more coming.

CMRA

12-25-03, 08:37 PM

another SD/MM moment. The camera could only capture so much.

CMRA

12-25-03, 08:39 PM

blacks, whites, make up and fleshtones. Just one more coming.

CMRA

12-25-03, 08:42 PM

A very Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

1Time

12-25-03, 08:51 PM

Thanks for the nice pics CMRA and Merry Christmas.

MississippiMan

12-25-03, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by 1Time
doug goldberg, glad to hear your great results and Merry Christmas. I'm almost set up to roll my SM/MM superplex. I bought from HD yesterday and am preparing to roll SM soon. HD wouldn't mix the 3 quarts of MM together for me although they did mix in drops of Thalo Green and Lamp Black. Did HD mix the MM for you or did you hand mix? Thanks.

You go back and tell' 'em that are a bunch of Jerks. If you buy the paints, and one of their empty cans, and show them the receipts from the cash register, they have NO reason not to mix it for you. Except that they are being Lazy Jerks. Get a Manager and ream 'em out.

The Jerks.

That really pisses me off. On Christmas Day too!

I do it so often now, My HD doesn't even worry, they know I'm going to pay for the Mix. Some HDs in various locals have requested that the paint be pre-paid, but NEVER has a Paint Dept refused to mix it outright.

What a Jerky way to be!!!!!!

Grrrr.....! They're recalcitrant attitude could jeopardize your results, or at the least require you to buy a Drill Mixer wand and spend 5 times as long yourself getting the Goopy stuff mixed throughly.

Please, go back, get a Manager in tow, and MAKE them give your entire Mix a good 'double' shakin'.

....and tell them for me to stop being such Jerks, will ya?

CMRA. Nice shots. I'm elated you rang in first with a full size SD/MM screen. It's only fitting. Now, let's see some fish, a Woody or Belle, and something we haven't seen before. Suprise us! Even more than you have delighted us.

Can you believe those JERKS in the Paint Dept. at 1Time's HD?

1Time

12-25-03, 10:26 PM

MM, thanks for the HD advise and Merry Christmas. Actually, the guy was otherwise very helpful and seemed experienced. Although, I did ask him twice if he could mix the MM in a gallon can, but he nicely explained "they don't do that". I was like, you mean I have to hand mix this stuff? Well, and thanks again MM, I will have fun tomorrow when I find a HD manager to set this guy straight and get my MM mixed. :)

I'm about to roll my 1st coat of SM, just a little more prep work first. I'm hoping to get the back side finished by tomorrow AM and then start rolling the top coat after my trip to HD.

MississippiMan

12-25-03, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by 1Time
MM, thanks for the HD advise and Merry Christmas. Actually, the guy was otherwise very helpful and seemed experienced. Although, I did ask him twice if he could mix the MM in a gallon can, but he nicely explained "they don't do that". I was like, you mean I have to hand mix this stuff? Well, and thanks again MM, I will have fun tomorrow when I find a HD manager to set this guy straight and get my MM mixed. :)

Go tear 'em up! You paid "in advance" at least $40.00 for 3 quarts of specialized paint, and you have every right to expect it to be mixed.
Nice or no, ignorance or a lack of common sense could cause ill will between the store & the Customer. We recommend a BUNCH of souls to HD, so they had better be both grateful AND helpful. Most are, anyway.

Smile, but go in guns ablazin'.

Kornbiz247

12-25-03, 10:59 PM

Man when i go to HD they better mix that Mud up real good or else! hehe im sure some other guy will gladly do it for you 1time.

CMRA

12-26-03, 01:43 AM

Originally posted by MississippiMan

CMRA. Nice shots. I'm elated you rang in first with a full size SD/MM screen. It's only fitting. Now, let's see some fish, a Woody or Belle, and something we haven't seen before. Suprise us! Even more than you have delighted us.

Methinks thats not good enough anymore. There's just no way my present camera captures what my eyes see on the screen. Once you guys fab your SD screens, you'll know what I mean.

CMRA

12-26-03, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by 1Time
Thanks for the nice pics CMRA and Merry Christmas.

Believe you me, these pix in NO WAY do this Super Deluxe screen justice. You guys holding back for whatever reasons are only hurting yourselves.

1Time

12-26-03, 02:35 AM

Originally posted by CMRA
Believe you me, these pix in NO WAY do this Super Deluxe screen justice. You guys holding back for whatever reasons are only hurting yourselves.

Oh I believe you CMRA... I still like your pics. So who's holding back? I just painted my 1st coat of SM. Can't say I did a great job but it's covered. Just waiting for paint to dry...

KingofOld

12-26-03, 06:35 AM

I would love to see some lord of the rings, or two towers screen shots for inspiration as I shall soon embark on this project.

CMRA

12-26-03, 06:58 AM

Originally posted by KingofOld
I would love to see some lord of the rings, or two towers screen shots for inspiration as I shall soon embark on this project.

Sorry to disappoint you. DVD not in library. I wonder if I should trouble myself with any more SD screen shots? They fail to display all the nuances that separates SD from other screen designs. Those familiar with video games understand the difference between 256 colors and 17 million colors. That about sums up the difference.

Richum

12-26-03, 07:27 AM

CMRA,

These screens shots are fantastic, awesome! Two questions.

1. Did you stick with the wardrobe mirror?
2. What projector do you have?

1Time,

I suppose I must be lucky, there is a man at my local HD who is very very knowledgeable about paint and painting in general since he was/is a professional painter. He has always been very cooperative on projects. Hence I only deal with him, if he is not there I come back when he is. I would be shocked if he refused to mix the paint in whatever method I ask.

CMRA

12-26-03, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by Richum
CMRA,

These screens shots are fantastic, awesome! Two questions.

1. Did you stick with the wardrobe mirror?
2. What projector do you have?

1Time,

I suppose I must be lucky, there is a man at my local HD who is very very knowledgeable about paint and painting in general since he was/is a professional painter. He has always been very cooperative on projects. Hence I only deal with him, if he is not there I come back when he is. I would be shocked if he refused to mix the paint in whatever method I ask.

No, the SD screen is fantastic, awesome! The screen shots are so-so.
This one is on safety glass. Shopping for 5'x10' substrate now which would rule out the wardrobe option. Plexi, glass, mirrors...they all work!
My very humble Z1.

Kamel407

12-26-03, 08:00 AM

Any way to "borrow" a better digital camera? Or perhaps we'll just have to wait until the spring shootout. By the way what is the scheduled date for that? I think the progress ya'll ( MM ) have made is phenomenal. Can't wait to see what improvements have been made by the time I actually get a projector.

Richum

12-26-03, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by CMRA
No, the SD screen is fantastic, awesome! The screen shots are so-so.
This one is on safety glass. Shopping for 5'x10' substrate now which would rule out the wardrobe option. Plexi, glass, mirrors...they all work!
My very humble Z1.

Well if you think your Z1 is humble, listen to this. I am using an Epson 710C which is a presentation projector shown onto a blackout cloth screen. It was bought to use as a presentation projector and that is what its primary function is...Power Point. I am in the market for a HT projector, and considering the Z2 at this time.

Having said that, I doubt I will build a full screen until after I have chosen my projector. MM has made it abundantly clear that their is no one best screen, that it should be tailor made for the projector and viewing conditions. Then again I may, seeing how it is a realtively inexpensive thing.

CMRA

12-26-03, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Kamel407
Can't wait to see what improvements have been made by the time I actually get a projector.

Don't hold your breath, Kamel. The 'what do I need to improve this light' hasn't lit up one time yet. If there was a 'shock and awe' lamp it would still be burning.

Jacket

12-26-03, 10:42 AM

Hey Guys,

I know that I'm still a relatively noobie as far as number of posts go, but believe me, I DO read this board everyday and will be trying my hand at making a screen real soon.

First of all, I'd like to thank CMRA, MississippiMan for bringing forth the multitude of DIY screen options available to us on this forum. Without you guys pushing us "sitting on the fence" guys, we prolly wouldn't gather up the courage to try new stuff.

Well, the reason I'm posting is to ask a question about HVLP sprayers. My wife TOTALLY surprised me for X-mas this year by getting me a Porter Cable HVLP Spray Gun (Model PSH1 (http://www.portercable.com/index.asp?e=547&p=2641)). I recently got a Sony HS20 and will be trying to make a "basic" ME screen next week and eventually try my hand at some "samples" of the CMRA/MM Superplex once I feel comfortable with spraying. Here are my question(s):

When spraying with a HVLP gun, how much overspray will there really be? I mean, I have a lot of my theater stuff already done (i.e., carpet, painted walls, trim, chairs, etc...), how much will I need to worry about overspray and "paint in the air" sticking to everything else in the room?

Ideally, I'd like to paint the screen in the room b/c it is upstairs and I don't like the idea of painting it downstairs in the garage then trying to get it upstairs in my room without messing it up. But if it can't be done in the room, then I'll do it that way.

I know that at the very least I will need to get all the electronic components out of the room and cover all the furniture, and put drop cloths in the direct vincinity of where I'll be painting, but I don't know if this will be enough.

Thanks again for all you guys' hard work and effort!

Jacket

P.S. After seeing CMRA's SS of his new SuperPlex screen, I'm feeling even more inspired now! :)

CMRA

12-26-03, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Jacket
Hey Guys,

I know that I'm still a relatively noobie as far as number of posts go, but believe me, I DO read this board everyday and will be trying my hand at making a screen real soon.

First of all, I'd like to thank CMRA, MississippiMan for bringing forth the multitude of DIY screen options available to us on this forum. Without you guys pushing us "sitting on the fence" guys, we prolly wouldn't gather up the courage to try new stuff.

Well, the reason I'm posting is to ask a question about HVLP sprayers. My wife TOTALLY surprised me for X-mas this year by getting me a Porter Cable HVLP Spray Gun (Model PSH1 (http://www.portercable.com/index.asp?e=547&p=2641)). I recently got a Sony HS20 and will be trying to make a "basic" ME screen next week and eventually try my hand at some "samples" of the CMRA/MM Superplex once I feel comfortable with spraying. Here are my question(s):

When spraying with a HVLP gun, how much overspray will there really be? I mean, I have a lot of my theater stuff already done (i.e., carpet, painted walls, trim, chairs, etc...), how much will I need to worry about overspray and "paint in the air" sticking to everything else in the room?

Ideally, I'd like to paint the screen in the room b/c it is upstairs and I don't like the idea of painting it downstairs in the garage then trying to get it upstairs in my room without messing it up. But if it can't be done in the room, then I'll do it that way.

I know that at the very least I will need to get all the electronic components out of the room and cover all the furniture, and put drop cloths in the direct vincinity of where I'll be painting, but I don't know if this will be enough.

Thanks again for all you guys' hard work and effort!

Jacket

P.S. After seeing CMRA's SS of his new SuperPlex screen, I'm feeling even more inspired now! :)

As excited as you are about breaking in your new sprayer, going the ME route only requires rolling. Clean rollers, a steady hand and a dropcloth should be all you need.
Later if you elect to spray, spray in the basement, garage, outside, elsewhere. Sure, you can cover everything, mask everything, tape everything but some how, some way overspray has a way of getting in. Even with HVLP guns.

Richum

12-26-03, 11:12 AM

CMRA,

One addition question if you would. I take it that the MMud is easier to spray (being thinner than the SMetallic). The question is, do you lower pressure or decrease the paint feed?

Since you stated that the projector set (nozzle assy) is the stock 1.4 mm that comes with the Harbor Freight gun, I still keep thinking that the larger diameter nozzle will be easier to work with when spraying the Silver Metallic.

The reason I ask is I am about to order or buy a gun locally. So, I want to get an additional nozzle at the same time.

1Time

12-26-03, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by Richum
Well if you think your Z1 is humble, listen to this. I am using an Epson 710C which is a presentation projector shown onto a blackout cloth screen. It was bought to use as a presentation projector and that is what its primary function is...Power Point. I am in the market for a HT projector, and considering the Z2 at this time.

Having said that, I doubt I will build a full screen until after I have chosen my projector. MM has made it abundantly clear that their is no one best screen, that it should be tailor made for the projector and viewing conditions. Then again I may, seeing how it is a realtively inexpensive thing.

Initially I had decided to buy a Z2 but then after determining I couldn't get a "higher quality" screen for under $300, I cheaped out and bought an InFocus LP-750, an older presentation projector. And although this pj will not perform up to the HT standard I want, it will give me something to play with until I later sell it and buy a Z2. The good news regarding this side step is thanks to CMRA and MississippiMan, I've now made my under $300 screen selection, the SM/MM SuperPlex. I'm waiting for my 3rd coat of SM to dry now.

For my MM top coat I chose to add 2 drops each of Thalo Green and Lamp Black per quart. The idea with this was to help out the very low CR (300:1) of my InFocus LP-750. And then after I buy the Z2 I may want to roll a thin 3rd top coat without additional coloring to lighten up the picture.

I'm fairly excited to see how this new screen will look. And for the most part I expect it's performance will help hasten my decision to buy a Z2.

Jacket

12-26-03, 11:40 AM

CMRA,

Thanks for the quick reply! Yeah, I had always planned on rolling my first ME screen, but I wasn't expecting to get my HVLP sprayer this quickly! This will force me to get my ME screen done sooner so that I can have something to enjoy/compare my first sprayed samples of the superplex.

As far as spraying goes, I guess I'll set up some kind of makeshift spray tent in my garage and use that to make my test panels.

Thanks again!

P.S. I also got a tripod for X-mas which will help me do some good screen shots with my Canon 10D. Once I get my ME screen done I'll post some SS over on that thread.

JimmyDaves

12-26-03, 11:55 AM

CMRA/MM:

My Sony HS10 seems to have a low CR as well.

I printed out all the instructions and the formula for the plexiglass DIY project, however, I don't see Thalo Green as part of the mix I printed, just the 1/48 particle of Red Oxide.

Should I be considering just Red Oxide or Red Oxide and Thalo Green or just Thalo green?

Also, was there anything added to the original formula that I need to know about before I go to HD?

Thanks. Jimmy

1Time

12-26-03, 12:35 PM

The Red Oxide is shown in the original formula. Thalo Green was later suggested by MississippiMan (MM) in place of Red Oxide. I'm not sure what the intent was with using the Red Oxide. Either Red Oxide or Thalo Green may be used but not both. I added the Lamp Black as suggested by MM to help the Thalo Green deal with the expected probelm with contrast with my InFocus LP-750. Your formula should be talored to your pj and so I suggest getting a recommendation from MM.

CMRA

12-26-03, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by JimmyDaves
CMRA/MM:

My Sony HS10 seems to have a low CR as well.

I printed out all the instructions and the formula for the plexiglass DIY project, however, I don't see Thalo Green as part of the mix I printed, just the 1/48 particle of Red Oxide.

Should I be considering just Red Oxide or Red Oxide and Thalo Green or just Thalo green?

Also, was there anything added to the original formula that I need to know about before I go to HD?

Thanks. Jimmy

That's definitely a question for MM. I used his stock topcoat without alterations to the color. MissMan, where are you?

CMRA

12-26-03, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by Richum
CMRA,

One addition question if you would. I take it that the MMud is easier to spray (being thinner than the SMetallic). The question is, do you lower pressure or decrease the paint feed?

Since you stated that the projector set (nozzle assy) is the stock 1.4 mm that comes with the Harbor Freight gun, I still keep thinking that the larger diameter nozzle will be easier to work with when spraying the Silver Metallic.

The reason I ask is I am about to order or buy a gun locally. So, I want to get an additional nozzle at the same time.

Says who? Why do you think it's called MUD? It's more like pudding. Getting a bigger nozzle sounds good to me. Needless to say, all gun controls were wide open and PSI was set at 60. Some thinning may be in order especially if employing lower PSI equipment. Consult your manual.

JimmyDaves

12-26-03, 01:35 PM

CRMA or anyone:

Instead of painting the plexiglass first with the SM, SM and Kilz, what if I painted it this way?

I already have my Parkland plastic on the wall so what if I paint that first with Kilz, then SM, SM, then put the plexiglass on top of that? That way, I could paint the Parkland stuff and the plexiglass separately and then just sandwich them together.

Let me know if there would be a problem with this method. I'm about to head out HD this evening, so would like to know this soon.

Thanks! Jimmy

CMRA

12-26-03, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by JimmyDaves
CRMA or anyone:

Instead of painting the plexiglass first with the SM, SM and Kilz, what if I painted it this way?

I already have my Parkland plastic on the wall so what if I paint that first with Kilz, then SM, SM, then put the plexiglass on top of that? That way, I could paint the Parkland stuff and the plexiglass separately and then just sandwich them together.

Let me know if there would be a problem with this method. I'm about to head out HD this evening, so would like to know this soon.

Thanks! Jimmy

I see no reason why it wouldn't. My big concern would be how well the SM bonds to the parkland. I'd do a test sample mock up first.

Richum

12-26-03, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by JimmyDaves
CRMA or anyone:

Instead of painting the plexiglass first with the SM, SM and Kilz, what if I painted it this way?

I already have my Parkland plastic on the wall so what if I paint that first with Kilz, then SM, SM, then put the plexiglass on top of that? That way, I could paint the Parkland stuff and the plexiglass separately and then just sandwich them together.

Let me know if there would be a problem with this method. I'm about to head out HD this evening, so would like to know this soon.

Thanks! Jimmy

Jimmy,

It seems to me that the idea could work. The question I have is are you sure that your Parkland and Plexi would be in intimate contact with no void or standoff between the two which might affect the optics. You may want to place the plexi against the Parkland and have look to see if that would be the case. Any void in your sandwich might be a problem.

Just my thoughts on it.

Richum

12-26-03, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by CMRA
Says who? Why do you think it's called MUD? It's more like pudding. Getting a bigger nozzle sounds good to me. Needless to say, all gun controls were wide open and PSI was set at 60. Some thinning may be in order especially if employing lower PSI equipment. Consult your manual.

That answers the question. I will definitely get the largest nozzles set they offer reasoning that I can always cut back on the paint or air as needed.

CMRA

12-26-03, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Richum
Jimmy,

It seems to me that the idea could work. The question I have is are you sure that your Parkland and Plexi would be in intimate contact with no void or standoff between the two which might affect the optics. You may want to place the plexi against the Parkland and have look to see if that would be the case. Any void in your sandwich might be a problem.

Just my thoughts on it.

But again, you are going into new territory. Reminder: Start small with test mock-ups first. Also make sure parkland is totally dry first.

Kornbiz247

12-26-03, 05:30 PM

well he will have the kilz primer on first, then the SM so wouldn't the SM stick to the primer good?

CMRA

12-26-03, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by Kornbiz247
well he will have the kilz primer on first, then the SM so wouldn't the SM stick to the primer good?

Paul,
I wish I had a definitive answer for you. Paints bonding to differing surfaces remains a mystery to me. I was almost certain oil and water base paints would be challenged on plexiglass. When sprayed, the bonding far exceeded my expectations. Both can even be rolled but won't bond as well.
A lot of trial and error and flat out getting lucky sums up screen designing.
Parkland is another animal altogether, however I read a post where a member rolled ME latex on it (no prepping) without issues. Best wishes. CMRA

1Time

12-26-03, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by MississippiMan
Go tear 'em up! You paid "in advance" at least $40.00 for 3 quarts of specialized paint, and you have every right to expect it to be mixed.
Nice or no, ignorance or a lack of common sense could cause ill will between the store & the Customer. We recommend a BUNCH of souls to HD, so they had better be both grateful AND helpful. Most are, anyway.

Smile, but go in guns ablazin'.

Shaken, not stirred...
So tonight 2 different guys were at the same HD paint department and they both told me they couldn't mix the 3 quarts of MM into a gallon can. After speaking with an assistant manager for a minute, these 2 HD "paint pros" were told to do as I had asked. One of them got so upset that he was told to do it, he just rudely walked away refusing to help me. Oh man, give me a break. What is the big deal!? Well anyway, the other guy mixed it so now I'm ready to start rolling my MM top coat.

CMRA

12-26-03, 10:06 PM

Originally posted by 1Time
Shaken, not stirred...
Well anyway, the other guy mixed it so now I'm ready to start rolling my MM top coat.

Roll On! This makes three. It's a brave new DIY world!

CMRA

12-26-03, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by doug goldberg
Note to MM and CRMA. Merry Xmas. Completed a plexi SM/MM screen. Decided to roll my own. Yes it is possible to roll all this goo and get good results. The SM was the worst. Projector is Sanyo Z2. Screen is 80" diag so I have what looks like a giant plasma. Very, very watchable in ambient light. Results are spectacular! Used 3 coats of MM (very thin 3rd coat). No hot spotting or other anomalies. Screen mounted to 1x2 frame. The HD crew got a real charge out of the making the custom MM mix after they learned what I was doing with it. They now refer to me as "Projector Man". Thanks guys you saved me a ton of dough and allowed me get "involved" in my HT project to a level beyond my expectations. Now I need to get my SMART system out and cal this bad boy. I have some pictures of the project along the way and once I'm cal'd I shoot so after shots.

I hope this isn't the last we hear of Doug. Do you suppose he can't be pulled away from his new screen?

Doug, give us an update, will ya? Or is that Mr. "Projector Man" now?

pixlar

12-26-03, 10:58 PM

Great Thread!! OK, all your informative and creative post have given me the courage to go for it. I decided to have some fun while I waaaaaait for my Z2; so I got my plexi (84" x 48" as big as I could go in my viewing area), got the Superplex paint cocktail, and rolled on my first coat of SM (rolling because the wife would be very unhappy if I sprayed inside and it's way too cold outside) and it rolled on very evenly. Now it dawns on me I'm supposed to "wet sand" before repainting. *****Dumb newbie questions **** What grit paper are you using 300, 600 or graduated grits? and Are you using a foam pad sanding backer like on drywall pole sanders or what?

Thanks,

Pixlar

1Time

12-26-03, 11:13 PM

Pixlar, I'll be lightly wet sanding the 2nd coat of MM top coat with 320 grit and a sanding block. No sanding is needed for the SM.

Kornbiz247

12-27-03, 02:51 AM

plz let us know how rolling went for the top coat of MM. I can spray but it would be easiest to roll if its do-able (no pun). what kind of rollers are you using?

1Time

12-27-03, 03:33 AM

Originally posted by Kornbiz247
plz let us know how rolling went for the top coat of MM. I can spray but it would be easiest to roll if its do-able (no pun). what kind of rollers are you using?

I'm using 1/4" imitation lamb's wool for the MM top coat. I finished the back side earlier using 3/8" imitation lamb's wool, just flipped the plexi and am getting ready to roll my 1st MM top coat so I'll post back when finished with it.

1Time

12-27-03, 05:34 AM

Okay that went well, much easier and better than the 1st coat of SM. I estimate I used 1 quart. Here's what I did with the dry roll method that worked well for me:

1. Load roller full and reduce in pan as much as possible, about 15 rolls in pan.
2. Roll back and forth in overlapping zig zag pattern and across a spare piece of drywall until the excess paint is left on the drywall, a distance of about 8' - 12'.
3. Roll all the way across the top of the plexi only going back and forth when the paint doesn't cover; it doesn't have to be perfect (yet).
4. Repeat the above for a 2nd pass below the 1st one.
5. Now load from the excess paint left on the drywall using the same zig zag pattern, a distance of about 6' - 10'.
6. Go over the 1st two passes evening it out by rolling back and forth; re-load from the drywall at or before the point the roller starts to get "sticky" (not enough paint).
7. Roll a 3rd pass below the 1st two.
8. Load from the excess paint from the drywall and even the 3rd pass to match the 2nd one; overlap the 2nd and 3rd pass.
9. Repeat the last two steps for remaining passes.

The 2 things that made this 1st coat of MM work well for me was keeping enough paint on the roller and reloading from the excess on the drywall. I've found using a spare piece of drywall for each coat to be invaluable. I used one piece of drywall for the SM and Kilz2 and I'm using another for each coat of the MM.

1Time

12-27-03, 05:43 AM

This 1st pic is looking through the plexi to the SM painted on the back. It reveals some unevenness/flaws? in my 1st coat of SM that I can't see when just looking at the plexi (perhaps since I'm working with low light). Also, the plexi I have is much more reflective than I thought it would be.

1Time

12-27-03, 05:49 AM

This one shows the off white color of the MM due to the Thalo Green and Lamp Black I had added to the mix. It looks kind of minty colored... yum.

1Time

12-27-03, 05:56 AM

This pic shows how it looks painted and compared to white paper and a white rag. It's mostly an off white, kind of a very light gray but mostly off white; I can't detect any green at all.

1Time

12-27-03, 06:04 AM

This last pic is of the completed 1st MM top coat. It shows a little unevenness that is evident when as I look at this 4' x 8' screen. Spraying no doubt should produce better results than I could by rolling. However, the question I still have is whether I will be able to discern any flaws in picture quality as a result of mediocre rolling skills. I'm hoping for the best.

JimmyDaves

12-27-03, 07:52 AM

1Time:

I will be following the same procedure as you this morning.

I went to HD and Lowes and have most of the items I need plus my friend who is a skilled painter is here for the weekend, so I hope to have the screen up and running in a short time.

The only thing I didn't get yet was the topcoat because the original formula mentions using the Red Oxide and you have Thalo Green and Lamp Black in your mix. I believe you are using that because of the low lumens your projector puts out right? My Sony HS10 is calibrated and also puts out some low lumens, so I think I might wait until I hear from you and then make the decision on which color to add to the topcoat.

Question for CMRA, Mississippi Man & others:

I also will be using my screen for video games where the added brightness and contrast would be very welcome. Any suggestions on which road to travel down with respect to adding Red Oxide to the topcoat or Thalo Green and Lamp Black.

Thanks! Jimmy

(oh, and remind me to tell you of my nightmarish experiences dealing with the folks at HD and Lowes yesterday. I thought I was in the Twilight Zone).

Richum

12-27-03, 08:07 AM

1Time,

Congrats for getting off of the starting blocks. Have applied the Kilz/grey primer over the SM on the back of the screen yet? Just wondering.

JimmyDaves

12-27-03, 11:06 AM

1Time:

I'm painting my primer on my Parkland first, then will put 2 coats of the SM on top of that (kind of in reverse of the formula). Then I will paint the plexiglass with the 2 topcoats.

However, I do want to wait and see what your results are using the Thalo green and lamp black before I commit to using the red oxide as stated in the original formula.

Jimmy

1Time

12-27-03, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Richum
1Time,

Congrats for getting off of the starting blocks. Have applied the Kilz/grey primer over the SM on the back of the screen yet? Just wondering.

Thanks Richum. Yes, I first rolled 3 coats of SM followed by 1 coat of Kilz2/grey, then flipped the plexi before rolling the MM top coat.

1Time

12-27-03, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by JimmyDaves
The only thing I didn't get yet was the topcoat because the original formula mentions using the Red Oxide and you have Thalo Green and Lamp Black in your mix. I believe you are using that because of the low lumens your projector puts out right? My Sony HS10 is calibrated and also puts out some low lumens, so I think I might wait until I hear from you and then make the decision on which color to add to the topcoat.

Question for CMRA, Mississippi Man & others:

I also will be using my screen for video games where the added brightness and contrast would be very welcome. Any suggestions on which road to travel down with respect to adding Red Oxide to the topcoat or Thalo Green and Lamp Black.

I used the Thalo Green and Lamp Black instead of Red Oxide as suggested by MississipiMan to address the low contrast resolution (CR) of my InFocus LP-750 which is 300:1. The lumens are okay at 900. Also, I reasoned when I upgrade my pj to the Z2, my selection of additional coloring would more likely help the picture quality than hurt.

The idea with the Thalo Green and Lamp Black is to help darken blacks and perhaps alleviate the screen door effect (SDE) of my current pj. Although I'm not sure what was intended by using the Red Oxide, I do believe these small additives are intended to "tweak", customize, and max out the picture quality of one's individual pj. That said, I doubt you could go "that far wrong" by using Red Oxide, or Thalo Green, or Thalo Green and Lamp Black, or even don't add any coloring at all. Of course I'd say MississippiMan's the one to recommend what would be best for your pj.

MississippiMan

12-27-03, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by 1Time
I used the Thalo Green and Lamp Black instead of Red Oxide as suggested by MississipiMan to address the low contrast resolution (CR) of my InFocus LP-750 which is 300:1. The lumens are okay at 900. Also, I reasoned when I upgrade my pj to the Z2, my selection of additional coloring would more likely help the picture quality than hurt.
]

1Time, (...and Jimmy)

Not much time at present.

1Time's PJ is a tough one to bring up to Theater specs. Only his Lumens seem to make the effort worthy of trying.

The Mix came out looking spectacularly green/grey in photos, but I suspect it's much lighter appearing in person.

[B]
The idea with the Thalo Green and Lamp Black is to help darken blacks and perhaps alleviate the screen door effect (SDE) of my current pj. Although I'm not sure what was intended by using the Red Oxide, I do believe these small additives are intended to "tweak", customize, and max out the picture quality of one's individual pj. That said, I doubt you could go "that far wrong" by using Red Oxide, or Thalo Green, or Thalo Green and Lamp Black, or even don't add any coloring at all. Of course I'd say MississippiMan's the one to recommend what would be best for your pj.

The red oxide is to offset LCD PJs tendencies to 'blue up' flesh tones. ME was less suited for Flesh tones than would have been desired, so by adding a little Red Oxide, one would hope to give such 'fire colors' a boost, without detracting from the contrast and detail attributes that ME, or for that matter, the MM Top Coat bring into the equation.

Gotta go sell a BIG 14 room system and Home Theater.

With a Super Deluxe / MM Mirror Screen, natch!

1Time

12-27-03, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by JimmyDaves
I'm painting my primer on my Parkland first, then will put 2 coats of the SM on top of that (kind of in reverse of the formula). Then I will paint the plexiglass with the 2 topcoats.

I'd have to think painting on the Parkland like you are will yield about the same picture quality as painting on the back side of the plexi. Of course, there's no way to know yet for sure. I'd just be concerned with not having any gaps between the last coat of SM and the plexi. I had considered doing this with my hardboard but then figured it'd be better not to risk it.

However, one benefit of doing it "your way" that comes to mind is the option of making sure you have a smooth and even coat of SM next to the plexi. Rolling that 1st coat of SM on the plexi was a bit challenging (see my Pic #1 above) and there's no improving it once applied. Who knows, we all may come to find "your way" as a preferred option.

JimmyDaves

12-27-03, 02:15 PM

1Time and MM:

I'm currently using the CC40R filter on my Sony HS10, so I don't know how that would affect my choice of Thalo green, lamp black or red oxide. After my HS10 was calibrated, I think my measured CR was around 400 something and lumens were in the 600's.

My current dilema:

I have a relatively small 39" x 69" projected image (this is the largest it can be from where it's positioned).

I've been checking out 4' x 8' Plexiglass (both 1/8th or 1/4th thicknesses) and of the few glass places that were open today, they all quoted me around $150 for the 4' x 8' 1/4th thickness.

At HD, they have 36" x 72" in 1/8th thickness for $42 and the same size in 1/4th thickness for $60.

Should I reduce my screen size down to 36" high or stay with my original picture size? That means I will end up with 36" x 65" for my picture size, but in the process of chopping off a couple of inches, I will save myself $100. I used to have my picture around 36" x 65" for a long time until I was able to move my seating back a couple of feet more and expand the image fully.

Any suggestions?

Thanks! Jimmy

CMRA

12-27-03, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by JimmyDaves
1Time and MM:

I'm currently using the CC40R filter on my Sony HS10, so I don't know how that would affect my choice of Thalo green, lamp black or red oxide. After my HS10 was calibrated, I think my measured CR was around 400 something and lumens were in the 600's.

My current dilema:

I have a relatively small 39" x 69" projected image (this is the largest it can be from where it's positioned).

I've been checking out 4' x 8' Plexiglass (both 1/8th or 1/4th thicknesses) and of the few glass places that were open today, they all quoted me around $150 for the 4' x 8' 1/4th thickness.

At HD, they have 36" x 72" in 1/8th thickness for $42 and the same size in 1/4th thickness for $60.

Should I reduce my screen size down to 36" high or stay with my original picture size? That means I will end up with 36" x 65" for my picture size, but in the process of chopping off a couple of inches, I will save myself $100. I used to have my picture around 36" x 65" for a long time until I was able to move my seating back a couple of feet more and expand the image fully.

Any suggestions?

Thanks! Jimmy

Jimmy,
Your situation is the best of all worlds. A high res PJ and smaller screen size. With such modest dimensions, all the options are open to you. My biggest concern with SD was accommodating the 5'x10' and above crowd.
Shop a little harder at HD and you'll find 3'x6' acrylic panels for $26.00. You are also in the 'Mirror' range. Lastly, don't overlook tempered and safety glass. Your dimensions are very doable.
None of us has tested 1/4 inch and denser substrates. Proceed with caution or stick with known values. As ALWAYS, start small with mock-up samples first. "Go for the Gold" when your'e ready.

MississippiMan

12-27-03, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by JimmyDaves
1Time:

I'm painting my primer on my Parkland first, then will put 2 coats of the SM on top of that (kind of in reverse of the formula). Then I will paint the plexiglass with the 2 topcoats.

However, I do want to wait and see what your results are using the Thalo green and lamp black before I commit to using the red oxide as stated in the original formula.

Jimmy

Jimmy!

I have a great idea! I want you to consider painting Silver Metallic directly onto the back of the Parkland (shiny side) At least two coats of SM, then a Back coat of matching grey Primer.

Then hit the Parkland with a PJ image. The Parkland should and will act like a translucent Plexi, with the SM/Primer reflecting back light otherwise lost out the back.

This should be tried first, even at the cost of a additional bottle of SM. It could represent another viable option from which to base decisions as to which SM/MM DIY screen app best suits your purpose.

Best of all, the original side you were going to use is still pristine, and wait should you opt to take it out further and try your original suggestion.

Plexi might not even be necessary in this case.

1Time

12-27-03, 04:11 PM

JimmyDaves,
I like MM's idea with the "SuperParkland". Then if you decide to go with the SuperPlex you can compare the two... and if possible post some screen shots??

JimmyDaves

12-27-03, 04:21 PM

CMRA and Mississippi Man:

I had had already painted the gray primer coat on the Parkland and just put a thin coat of SM on top of that. While I was waiting for it to dry some more, I read your two posts.

CMRA - I did find 3' x 6' acrylic panels at Lowes for $28 and almost bought that, but then I thought I remembered a post where Mississippi Man stated that the additional "clear" depth that a 1/4th thick plexiglass gives was much better. Did I get confused on this? That's when I went to HD and saw the 1/4th inch 3' x 6' panel for $60. I was tempted!

Mississippi Man - Your suggestion sounds good, especially since I wouldn't have to mess with my picture size. By the time I read your post, however, I had already painted a coat of primer and SM onto the Parkland. (I guess I could get another Parkland for $14 and put on top of the painted Parkland). Update: Just found a 2' x 4' piece of Parkland I had left over from cutting my Parkland Screen. I can put this in front of the screen I'm painting now and turn the projector on and compare!

I have to say that even with one very thin coat of SM, I turned the projector on and was amazed at the vividness that the SM brings to the table. It was easily watchable and my friend who painted it, said "why not just paint the topcoat onto the SM and skip the Plexi"? I told him it was too early to tell. I wanted to do a couple more coats of SM before I started making decisions - biggest of which is the size of the Plexi that I've been able to find that's reasonably affordable.

I looked at both the 1/8th and 1/4th inch Plexi's at HD and then I vaguely recalled a post where I thought you said that the 1/4th inch was defeinitely more impressive than the 1/8th. Can you clarify or correct me on this? My only concern with the 3' x 6' size is that I will have to make my picture smaller to fit the screen. Without the Plexi in the mix, I won't have this problem (small problem, but there nonetheless.)

My friend is about to paint another coat of SM in a little bit, but I will keep watch on the Forum to check out both of your comments.

Thank you both! Jimmy

JimmyDaves

12-27-03, 04:35 PM

1Time:

MM's "SuperParkland" theory sounds like a very good idea and tempting suggestion and a much more affordable way of getting a quality screen made without the added complexity/cost of Plexiglass.

I just found a 2' x 4' piece of Parkland that was left over from my Parkland Screen I'm painting now, so I would be able to get some idea of a projected image onto clear Parkland with the primer and SM behind it.

Stay tuned for the latest developments!

Jimmy

JimmyDaves

12-27-03, 05:09 PM

Ok, I've put on 2 coats of the SM, but it seems to be streaky. Can this be thinned out slightly with water to go on smoother and better?

Thanks! Jimmy

1Time

12-27-03, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by JimmyDaves
MM's "SuperParkland" theory sounds like a very good idea and tempting suggestion and a much more affordable way of getting a quality screen made without the added complexity/cost of Plexiglass.

My thoughts exactly.

1Time

12-27-03, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by JimmyDaves
Ok, I've put on 2 coats of the SM, but it seems to be streaky. Can this be thinned out slightly with water to go on smoother and better?

Water would make it worse. Sounds like you may have too much paint on the roller (or not enough?). I found subsequent coats of SM to be fairly easy to handle. By streaky you mean your not seeing an even coat? Maybe you could just lightly sand your 3rd coat to make it smooth and even? Although, my 3rd coat of SM looked pretty good so I doubt I would have sanded it had I been making a SuperParkland.

CMRA

12-27-03, 05:42 PM

Originally posted by 1Time
Water would make it worse. Sounds like you may have too much paint on the roller (or not enough?). I found subsequent coats of SM to be fairly easy to handle. By streaky you mean your not seeing an even coat? Maybe you could just lightly sand your 3rd coat to make it smooth and even? Although, my 3rd coat of SM looked pretty good so I doubt I would have sanded it had I been making a SuperParkland.

Multiple thin coats is the key. Recall MM's dry roller method? You are developing your technique on small test panels, ar'nt you? Three light thin coats of SM usually does the trick when rolling.

JimmyDaves

12-27-03, 06:13 PM

Well I put up my left-over scrap of white Parkland over half of the "silverized" Parkland. The white Parkland was a little too small to make true comparisions, but what I saw definite has "star" potential. I'm going to paint a third coat of SM, then go to Lowes and buy a full sized Parkland to make a true 50/50 comparison and report back those findings.

I still have the urge to try out the Plexi because I feel that it would really enhance the picture.... but in terms of cost, you simply can't go wrong with the "Super Parkland" method.

Also, earlier I had reduced the size of my picture down to 3' x 6' to see how watchable the picture would be at that size. When I was testing the white Parkland, it never dawned on me that I had changed the size because I was so caught up in comparing the silver side of the Parkland vs the white Parkland on top of it. Interesting.

Jimmy

Richum

12-27-03, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by JimmyDaves
Well I put up my left-over scrap of white Parkland over half of the "silverized" Parkland. The white Parkland was a little too small to make true comparisions, but what I saw definite has "star" potential. I'm going to paint a third coat of SM, then go to Lowes and buy a full sized Parkland to make a true 50/50 comparison and report back those findings.

I still have the urge to try out the Plexi because I feel that it would really enhance the picture.... but in terms of cost, you simply can't go wrong with the "Super Parkland" method.

Jimmy

Jimmy,

I found this in where can I get Parkland thread. Supposedly it is a parkland clone. Could be you are on to something!!!

I just experimented w/a piece of 4x8 Polywall and accidently fell upon something interesting. I took my new plain piece of Parkland Polywall and attached piece of "one-way-glass" silver mirror applique to the shiny side and nailed it flat to the wall (painted dark blue-black behind the screen). The effect w/a Z2 was an amazing 3D effect, w/bright whites, saturated colors and deep blacks. Even beat my ME screen--and so simple.

-Preston

CMRA

12-27-03, 08:33 PM

The creative juices are indeed starting to flow. It's amazing what a few DIYers and the internet can create!!!

Along these same lines, some of you may recall my SD mirror option mentioned earlier. Today, I made a trip to HD. It's very good news. I'm in a bum's rush, but in my next post I'll share the particulars. You should be pleasantly surprised.

JimmyDaves

12-27-03, 08:37 PM

I just painted my 4th coat of SM on the Parkland and I'm letting it dry. I just went to Lowes and got another white Parkland to put in front of the silver one and after it dries, I will do some viewing/testing tonight and report my findings.

Again, this "Sandwich Parkland" might be the easy/cheaper way to go for those who were interested in Plexi. (BTW, I'm still very interested in Plexi, so this may just be an experiment to keep me busy until I get the right size plexi).

Jimmy

(CMRA - looking forward as usual to your next post!)

Gary01

12-27-03, 11:27 PM

Jimmy, Just to clarify, you are painting the shiny side of the Parkland with SD, coating that with primer and then projecting the image through the Parkland (before the light hits the SD)? I believe that this is what Miss Man was suggesting. Using the translucent white parkland as a "top coat and plexi substitution". I look foward to your evaluation.

JimmyDaves

12-28-03, 12:02 AM

Gary:

Before I saw Mississippi Man's post, I had already painted the matte side of the Parkland Plastics; first with gray primer, then followed by 4 light coats of SM.

I then read Miss Man's suggestion regarding the Parkland and then went out and bought another identical Parkland Plastic ($15) and put it on top of the now "silverized" Parkland - shiny side towards me.

I've been watching some High Def and a couple of DVD's and I have to say that this is a downright winner considering the small expense and effort. Colors are so vibrant and richly saturated and I seem to have good contrast as well. Also, I've been able to lower my brightness, contrast and color a good deal than where it had been with just the plain Parkland (as well as setting the Sony HS10 back to "Cinema" mode instead of "high").

The only thing that I'm still watching out for is some possible warmspotting, but I can't be sure that's what I'm seeing. I feel that I'm seeing something at times, but it is so minor and not consistent that it's almost not worth mentioning (but I'm picky!). It's possible I'm seeing streaks from the SM paint or possibly the street light from outside reflecting off the screen (which it was at times), but regardless, the picture is simply fantastic. I don't say that often.

I still have much to view and tinker with and I'm still open to Plexi, but I can say this upfront - this is an awesome picture considering the time/effort/cost ratios involved and Mississippi Man was right on target with his theory and prediction. After reading his post, I spent the remainder of the evening proving his theory and he was right! (no surprise)

Will let you all know more very soon!

Jimmy

1Time

12-28-03, 12:21 AM

That's great to hear Jimmy; sounds very promising indeed. Thanks for working through this new DIY screen and sharing your results.

CMRA

12-28-03, 12:49 AM

I was downright surprised how affordable some wardrobe mirrors sell for at HD. And, as a bonus, they are much lighter in weight than their size suggests.

Here's a sampling: 59"x80" wardrobe mirrors go for $99.00. What that translates to is 2 30"x80" framed mirror panels and the associated hardware to enclose a closet. Actually, that works out to about $50.00 a panel.
But wait, they get bigger. Up to 8 feet (96"). Now we are talking Home Theater country! The price: $155.00 for TWO panels. That figures around $80.00 bucks each. A similar piece of plexi will run $100.00 and unless it attaches to a wall, and additional substrate will be required to support it.

More pluses. The silver backcoat is prefabicated. No need to purchase SM or go thru the trouble of applying it. It is also framed and rigid and will require no additional support. Lastly, it's reusable! Goof up or change to a newer and better formulation, no problem, just scrape. Remember only one side requires preparation.

The minuses. Must be bought in pairs. What do you do with the extra panel? They are heavier and will require help in set-up and transfer. Because they are rigid turning corners will be difficult. They will require more topcoats to counter the ultra shiny reflection of the mirror or you'll have 'halos'. Lastly they require care when handling, glass you know.

The offer: Anyone in the San Diego, Ca area looking to go this route, PM me
so we don't get stuck with extra panels.

fkong777

12-28-03, 02:37 AM

Originally posted by CMRA
I was downright surprised how affordable some wardrobe mirrors sell for at HD. And, as a bonus, they are much lighter in weight than their size suggests.

Here's a sampling: 59"x80" wardrobe mirrors go for $99.00. What that translates to is 2 30"x80" framed mirror panels and the associated hardware to enclose a closet. Actually, that works out to about $50.00 a panel.
But wait, they get bigger. Up to 8 feet (96"). Now we are talking Home Theater country! The price: $155.00 for TWO panels. That figures around $80.00 bucks each. A similar piece of plexi will run $100.00 and unless it attaches to a wall, and additional substrate will be required to support it.

More pluses. The silver backcoat is prefabicated. No need to purchase SM or go thru the trouble of applying it. It is also framed and rigid and will require no additional support. Lastly, it's reusable! Goof up or change to a newer and better formulation, no problem, just scrape. Remember only one side requires preparation.

The minuses. Must be bought in pairs. What do you do with the extra panel? They are heavier and will require help in set-up and transfer. Because they are rigid turning corners will be difficult. They will require more topcoats to counter the ultra shiny reflection of the mirror or you'll have 'halos'. Lastly they require care when handling, glass you know.

The offer: Anyone in the San Diego, Ca area looking to go this route, PM me
so we don't get stuck with extra panels.

interesting :::::

i've mentioned the price of mirror closet door on page1 post #10. I didn't think you(crma) or mm was interested with the mirror;s reflective properties.. love those screenshots of the mirror.

from my post on post #10.....

did an Old yellow page search for Plastic sheet.

called an local plastic supplier. 4x8 1/8" Plexiglass sheet is $50 apx
1/4" is $98.

BTW 4x8 sheet on some site is shipped via truck so expect hefty shipping charges on a single sheets.

Also a Mirror closet door is about $125 at HD. but MM advised against mirror if that what you are thinking.