Originally posted by jdhdiggs


As for not needing an anechoic flat sub down to <20Hz.. Sorry, wrong... Yes there is room gain BUT you also need to take into account your hearing ability and the fact that room gain is nowhere near the same slope as a typical subs decay below a -3db point. The lower a frequencey goes, the harder it is for any human to hear a particular volume. What this sounds like is a prefectly flat sub will sound like it is getting quieter and quiter as it goes lower.

While some people will say that this is ideal (which for music I can see the arguments) for HT, it's not a lot of fun. Establishing a good house curve is essential for having a really good HT experience (the whole "Wow" factor) My ideal setup would be solidly flat to ~30Hz, slight rise to 20Hz, and then a 5db/octive slope up until the sub runs out of gas. Other people have their own preffered sound but it is almost universally accepted that when you go really low (<25hz), you need to have some sort of increase in volume.


Ooops, excellent point about hearing sensitivity. I didn't think of that. I assume when you mention your ideal setup, you are referring to the room response. I like everything up to the point where you describe the slope below 20Hz, that seems to present some problems, although I guess they could be overcome with sufficient money. :-)

A 5db per octave slope below 20Hz is an interesting thought but it does present a few problems. Going that low we are talking a ported sub and below the port frequency Xmax increases rapidly, so at that slope I am not sure you (meaning myself or some one else designing a sub) will be able to get the kind of volume you really want at the more interesting frequencies above 20Hz without doing bad things to the sub bleow 20Hz. For that reason most decent subwoofer amplifiers have rumble filters that kick around 16Hz, some are adjustable, but typically they are a -12db per octave slope.

The sub I am planning I think will end up with a rise in the 20-30Hz range due to room gain because I am not rolling it off fast enough to compensate for room gain. -3db around 24Hz -5db around 20Hz tuned to ~18hz so the big rolloff won't start until then. Of course I will have to build it and put it in the room before I decide if that actually sounds good.

And, to contribute my mistake as a warning to others. I built a sub with -3db around 27Hz, it sounded ok at a certain level with music, but then needed more volume to rumble with movies, but had a sound that just wasn't right. it seemed like certain frequencies especially at the low end were much more overpowering than others. The pod race engines just didn't sound right. I decided the problem was it was tuned around 27Hz, and was rolling off way to much it modeled at -11db at 20Hz. So, same box longer port, I tuned it lower modeling at -3db at about 29Hz, but only -8db at 20Hz. It sounds much better now, and I can keep the amp at the same setting for both music and movies. The moral being -3db doesn't tell you everything.

A number of years ago, Bose showed up at the Minnesota State Fair with a trailer that demonstrated their AM5 speakers. The Bose people were dressed in suits that made them look cult like to me. They looked like they had just come out of the Biosphere or something. Way too much hype!

Considering the size of the cubes, I didn't think they sounded that bad. But for the price, I think there is better value available out there.

JMHO.

Bose = very clever and effective marketing

Their products are cheaply made with mediocre components, but at a premium retail cost. They basically advertise and sell concepts like "direct reflecting" speakers and B.S. like that. Those of us who have been in the audio industry are well aware of the Bose scam, whether it be in home audio, car stereo, or sound reinforcement.

oops

"No High's, No Low's....must be BOSE"

B..uy
O..ther
S..ound
E..quipment

Originally posted by goblues38
I was reading this thread hopinh someone would stick up for our home town name sake. My dad and good buddy are both emplyed at AB, and i will concur, that one of the best aspects of the beer is that it tastes the same here in St. Louis as it does anywhere in the world.

And yes, I agree that it is top notch, by the way, so does 40% of the worlds beer drinkers.

Well I just read this whole thread. Very interesting. Since I'm very new to the audio world, I'll not expound on the Bose issue - it seems to be well covered. I will point out though, that aesthetics are important to a lot of people - specifically my wife. If the Bose sats were the only speaker she'd tolerate, it would still be money well spend, as opposed to TV speakers. So Bose does have its place.

What really got me to respond was this comment about Bud's quality and 40% of the worlds beer drinkers. I'd wager that more than 40% of Americans could be classified as McDonalds eaters. Does that make McDonalds any good? No. It is total crap. So just because Bud markets and sells a consistent product cheaply doesn't make it good. I will accept that Bud uses some of the finest ingredients available. I have no reason to believe they don't have as stringent quality control as anybody. But none of these things make it a good beer.

I think budweiser is a very poor beer. I'm not a beer snob - I'll drink bud if it is the only thing available, or as some other guy said, if I'm barbequing on a hot summer's day. But as far as beer goes, I barely even consider Budweiser a beer. I think of it in the same category as those malt beverages that are so popular these days - the leamonades and the teas. Nice to drink cold - quench your thirst - give you a buzz - nut not really beer.

Here is two quotes from the members Ovation and bpape that rings so true that it needs to be repeated here. IMO this is why we are all here.
Originally posted by Ovation
While I acknowledge that aesthetics are a personal choice, the primary purpose for speakers is sound reproduction (in other words, I listen to my speakers, I don't look at them) and sonics should be a major criteria.
Originally posted by bpape
Well put Ovation.

If you want invisbility instead of sound quality, buy a boom box and put it in the closet when you aren't using it. ;)
Hope you don't mind me posting your quotes here guys.


peace

No kidding. Obviously sonics should be a major consideration when purchasing speakers. Let me say 'DUH'. But suppose you had a chose of TV speakers or the discreet (and overpriced) Bose system. The Bose sats are certainly inferior to a lot of things, but I haven't seen anybody step up and say they're inferior to the speakers in their TV.

I'm married. I can't make decisions like this on my own. Its my wife's house too, and she's got a lot to say about aesthetics and really doesn't care at all about audio. Since audio isn't a big priority to me, I'm picking my battles here. And I'm chosing not to battle her on this one. So I chose a system with small speakers and an acceptably sized sub. (it wasn't Bose, it was an Onkyo).

So, no, small inferrior speakers are not ideal. But they're better than nothing.

Where I am in Massachusetts, Bose is right down the street from where I work, and I drive by the corporate office on "The Mountain" every few days. Alot of people who live around here work for Bose, in fact my next door neighbor works for them.

There is a furniture store around here called Jordan's Furniture which has a very large store in Framingham, and it has a Bose store in it. I was somewhat considering getting the top Lifestyle system because I could have gotten it at a significant discount because of all the people I know who work there. They had one setup in a room with a ~60" RPTV showing Lion King. The only problem was that James Earl Jones's voice was appearing through both the little cube speaker at the center channel, and in the subwoofer at the same time. It made it very difficult to locate his voice.

The other item that they have is a theater room with a pretty good setup of speakers. These are inwall speakers with everything setup exactly for the room. The problem is that the bass is really muddy, they show a clip from LOTR and the explosions of the fireworks do not sound good at all. They are muddy and not clear at all. My Yamaha Subwoofer does a much better job handling the bass.

To go into those rooms is a rather interesting experience because even the demo rooms that are supposed to show off the perfection of their systems does not shine at all.

My 12 year old daughter even commented on how unclear the audio was compared to our system.

Reedl

Three beer execs from three different brewers attending an industry conference in London recess to a corner pub for a libation after.

The Coors exec orders a "Coors - ice-cold brewed with Rocky Mountain water";
The Anheuser Busch exec orders a "Budweiser - the King of beers";
The Guiness exec orders a Coke.
The Coors and AB execs look at the Guiness exec funny.
The Guiness exec says"well, if neither of you are going to have a real beer, neither will I." ;)

I guess the Bose answer is: for some, packaging is everything, and performance be sacrificed. It's a damn shame that tiny cute cubes can't produce sound comparable to much larger speakers, for WAF issues alone in non-dedicated spaces, but I guess that requires a suspension of the rules of physics and sound.

I'm married. I can't make decisions like this on my own. Its my wife's house too, and she's got a lot to say about aesthetics and really doesn't care at all about audio. Since audio isn't a big priority to me, I'm picking my battles here. And I'm chosing not to battle her on this one. So I chose a system with small speakers and an acceptably sized sub. (it wasn't Bose, it was an Onkyo).

If it's not imortant to you then why are you here?

either listen to the tv speakers and save a ton of money, or grow a pair....

Very nice answer. For his situation, sats/sub is a perfect solution

I just recently bought the Bose 3-2-1 system for the reason that is has the simulated surround, and I did not want to go through the hassel of rear speakers. It is very simple to set-up.

And the simulation is great. It does a wonderful job at simulating what a horrible surround system would sound like. Bose has taken my last dollar. Maybe someone will give me good money on eBAY.

My best friend used to work at Best Buy when they were still a commission based store and sold higher end stuff like Mission, etc.

"No highs, no lows. Must be Bose." was a very common phrase among the salesmen. He said there was a distinct reason they were told when selling a Bose system to always use a Bose Demo CD and never interchange those discs with another one.

The CDs were mixed to minimize the weaknesses of Acoustimass systems. Apparently, this was readily apparent on "real" systems, too.

I invite you Bose bashers to visit the photo gallery section of this BB - especially the Plasma area. You will see many of the high end sets with Bose systems.
If it works for the end user, then he/she is the only one who need be satisfied.

Originally posted by Jake Sm
If it's not imortant to you then why are you here?

either listen to the tv speakers and save a ton of money, or grow a pair....

Clearly you are an idiot. And most likely a single idiot. A relationship is all about compromises - if it isn't it will end soon. And why not compromise on something that isn't a priority? Your post is useless.

Oh, and if you think there is no middle ground between TV speakers and high end equipment, then you are also a narrow minded idiot.

I'm here because I like to make informed purchase, I like to know how to get the most out of my equipment and how things work together. Just because audio isn't a priority to me, doesn't mean I just buy the shinyest looking thing, plop it in my livingroom and hope it works. I appreciate the useful information I find here and am generally amused buy the rest of the posts, like yours.

Originally posted by Jake Sm
If it's not imortant to you then why are you here?

either listen to the tv speakers and save a ton of money, or grow a pair....

I don't know Jake, since he specifically stated that audio isn't a big priority for himself, why does it matter so much?

There are plenty of members who frequent this board that aren't that interested in sound. Lest we forget, the amount of posting that goes on in the HTPC section is more than double the speaker section. Just a thought. :-)

Here is two quotes from the members Ovation and bpape that rings so true that it needs to be repeated here. IMO this is why we are all here.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Ovation
While I acknowledge that aesthetics are a personal choice, the primary purpose for speakers is sound reproduction (in other words, I listen to my speakers, I don't look at them) and sonics should be a major criteria.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by bpape
Well put Ovation.

If you want invisbility instead of sound quality, buy a boom box and put it in the closet when you aren't using it.


I sincerely hope this belief is not widely held on this forum. If we are being honest, we must admit aesthetics does play a role in our AV purchases. Otherwise, all the snazzy brushed aluminum and stainless glitz with multi colored lighted control panels on our receivers and amps really wouldn't be available. There is enough about this hobby that has nothing to do with sound quality (whether we realize/admit this is a different story :p ), but rather appeals to our sense of what is "cool", "slick", or good looking whether it be flashing LED's, weighted knobs, or monolithic speakers in piano finishes.

A quick perusal in the members photo gallery shows that a majority of people prefer to show off their system, although putting most components behind closed armoire doors would not adversely affect sound quality.

Used equipment on Audiogon must be rated using a 1-10 scale, 10 being mint. Ratings from 3-10 relate to purely the cosmetic condition of the equipment, and while functionality is stated to be perfect. If nothing else, this should tell us that aesthetics plays a rather substantial role in AV equipment.

So if someone finds unobstrusiveness to be a factor in their decision making, its as valid as any other.:)

Originally posted by PeterMR
I invite you Bose bashers to visit the photo gallery section of this BB - especially the Plasma area. You will see many of the high end sets with Bose systems.
If it works for the end user, then he/she is the only one who need be satisfied.
Those people clearly have a lot of money to burn and have done very little research. Sure, the Bose tiny speakers make for a nice picture next to a plasma TV set. But that doesn't mean they sound great. Those guys wasted their money or are satisfied with mediocre sound. Most people in this (speakers) forum want to get the most bang for the buck. And on that scale, Bose ranks near the bottom, if not at the bottom.

"A fool and his/her money is soon parted"

Lest we forget, the amount of posting that goes on in the HTPC section is more than double the speaker section. Just a thought. :-)

but THIS isn't the HTPC section, nor is it the section for interior design.

I'm sorry, because I was and am A LITTLE HARSH ON THIS SUBJECT, but if you care about audio you make comprimises in asthetics , and if you like asthetics and are making compromises in audio, you ought to post this on the ENTERIOR DESIGNERS THREAD. Try getting a lot of courtesy on canyon racing sites when your canyon racing ride is a semi, cause your wife forces you to haul pigs ...not gonna make a lot of friends there.


.Used equipment on Audiogon must be rated using a 1-10 scale, 10 being mint. Ratings from 3-10 relate to purely the cosmetic condition of the equipment, and while functionality is stated to be perfect. If nothing else, this should tell us that aesthetics plays a rather substantial role in AV equipment.

As for the asthetic condition of equip. for sale, I think a lot of that may be based on the feeling that if it looks to be in better shape, it was probably treated better.

Originally posted by PeterMR
I invite you Bose bashers to visit the photo gallery section of this BB - especially the Plasma area. You will see many of the high end sets with Bose systems.
If it works for the end user, then he/she is the only one who need be satisfied.

For some reason something tells me these people went to Best Buy or CC and asked the sales guy to give them the best stuff that they sell. I'm sure these systems are fitted with Monster cables in and out.

Originally posted by Jake Sm
but THIS isn't the HTPC section, nor is it the section for interior design.

I'm sorry, because I was and am A LITTLE HARSH ON THIS SUBJECT, but if you care about audio you make comprimises in asthetics , and if you like asthetics and are making compromises in audio, you ought to post this on the ENTERIOR DESIGNERS THREAD. Try getting a lot of courtesy on canyon racing sites when your canyon racing ride is a semi, cause your wife forces you to haul pigs ...not gonna make a lot of friends there.


.

As for the asthetic condition of equip. for sale, I think a lot of that may be based on the feeling that if it looks to be in better shape, it was probably treated better.

Once again, you are narrow minded. Forget about courtesty; I'm not looking for it. What I am looking for is a reasonable discussion on the merits of verious speakers. That is why I'm on the "Speakers" board. If you cannot realize that different speakers are appropriate for different applications, then obviously you are wearing blinders.

As for the asthetic condition of equip. for sale, I think a lot of that may be based on the feeling that if it looks to be in better shape, it was probably treated better.

I agree with you on this, but only in part. I've had several transactions on Audiogon where the seller actually knocked off 10% of his original asking price, because he later found a scratch or chip on the REAR panel of an amplifier. I was only too happy to accept these changes, as such cosmetic flaws make little difference to me. So although there is an element of gauging technical condition from the cosmetic condition, I think a larger part in Audiogon's extremely weighted ratings is because a majority of its users value cosmetic perfection, along with reliable operation.

Again, this would suggest that aesthetics does play a role in AV equipment purchases.

As others have already mentioned, when choosing audio gear there are compromises and a wise decision should be based on the best compromise between aesthetics, audio quality and price...

Unfortunately for Bose, the asthetics factor weighs too much and the other two factors weighs too little. I mean, Bose speakers have spectacular cosmetic appearance, but their audio quality is ranked from very poor to mediocre, and of course they're pricey.

Anyone can weigh the decision at will... but the main purpose of a speakers setup is to provide a good, comfortable listening experience (great audio quality)... if this experience comes together with a great appearance, it is just a bonus...

So going Bose is not a wise decision when buying speakers is the subject. :)

I'm sorry, because I was and am A LITTLE HARSH ON THIS SUBJECT, but if you care about audio you make comprimises in asthetics , and if you like asthetics and are making compromises in audio, you ought to post this on the ENTERIOR DESIGNERS THREAD. Try getting a lot of courtesy on canyon racing sites when your canyon racing ride is a semi, cause your wife forces you to haul pigs ...not gonna make a lot of friends there.

I don't think the issue is as black and white as this. Or rather, I don't think that sound quality and aesthetics NECESSARILY conflict with each other. If you are of the persuasion that large, behemoth speakers do more to grace your living room than a Monet on the wall, you will have a much easier time finding a set of good sounding speakers and there is no conflict between aesthetics and sound quality for you. However, if you'd rather not have your speakers draw attention away from that Monet, you're going to have to work a little harder, and make some sacrifices in sound quality to get something that works for you.

Either approach is a preference, not a commandment.:p

I'd figure I'd chime in a bit here ( by no means am I a Bose advocate ).

If the Bose sound good to you, and they meet your requirements of getting a surround sound setup, and it makes your spouse happy, then by all means get them, it is your money and you can do with it as you wish. Just be open to looking at other brands as well (with the money you save, you could buy a nice piece of Jewelry, which will make slightly different speakers acceptable :) )

I have not read the whole thread, but it seems that aesthetics are very important in all of this discussion. Has anyone mentioned a nice set of in-wall speakers? If they can budget a lot for the Bose setups, they could easily get some good good in-wall / in-ceiling speakers.

Originally posted by Jake Sm
...if you like asthetics and are making compromises in audio, you ought to post this on the ENTERIOR DESIGNERS THREAD.

Hold your horses Jake. If this were true, every single thread on small speakers would belong in the "Enterior Designers" thread. And would it mean that if someone loves his/her kids but because they have to go to college he/she can spend a litte less on equipment and asks for advise on a mid-range product it belongs in the "Raising Kids" thread? The fact that you won't compromise on ANYTHING in audio is ok with me, just don't expect everyone else to be the same...

I don't think that sound quality and aesthetics NECESSARILY conflict with each other

Nor do I...but in the case of Bose they do.

The fact that you won't compromise on ANYTHING in audio is ok with me, just don't expect everyone else to be the same...

Yes, some compromise IS neccesary (I'm sorry if I implied otherwise), however, the Bose is doubtfully the least intrusive, nor the prettiest speaker system you could find for the money....there are countless better examples of asthetic and sonic balance than the Bose.

To recap the objective reasons why Bose speakers are inferior:

1. They use cheap materials. Plastic cabinets and $5 drivers.

2. Their bass modules are small, use drivers too small for the application, and are unpowered in the lower end of the line.

3. Their aesthetics are achieved by using incredibly small satellites and a small sub. The result is a weak sound, and a gigantic hole in the midrange which is critical for vocals and home theater.

4. They are ridiculously overpriced.

For example, here in Canada our local big-box retailer sells the Bose Acoustimass AMS-15 system for $1800. For that price, you get five tiny cube drivers with 4" midranges and 2" tweeters, and a 'bass module' that 'fits behind a curtain' and uses three 5 1/4" drivers. I can't read the specs, because they are unpublished.

Bose's strategy of using 3 5 1/4" drivers in their 'bass module' along with extensive tuning and porting in the cabinet is going to lead to ragged frequency response and a serious lack of 'punch'. It's not going to go as low as a traditional subwoofer with, say a 12" driver, which is what you would expect in speakers of this class.

Bose is simply not competitive in sound, which is why they refuse to publish specs and won't allow their speakers to be demo'd in the same room as all the other speakers. Instead, they build little demo kiosks in which the customer stands right inside a cluster of speakers located a few inches from his ears. In that environment, they'll sound pretty impressive. Then you get them home, put them in your normal sized room, and wonder why they didn't sound the way they sounded in the store.

Or maybe you get them home, set them up, and you're happy because they sound much better than the $500 all-in-one stereo you were using before. What you don't know is that if you took home almost any other speaker system in the same price range it would sound MUCH better.

For example, the same retailer sells the Polk RM6900 speaker system, which is similar in concept to the Bose and $400 cheaper. However, in this case the system comes with a powered 12" subwoofer and composite dome tweeters, and they're not afraid to publish specs.

And I wouldn't consider the Polk system to be the best value either. It's also a packaged 'surround system' with sub and smallish satellites. These are designed for people who want easy setup and don't know much about audio and how to select speakers. If you spend the time to do research, you can do much better.

From the same big box retailer, you could put together the following system:

Velodyne DSP-12B Subwoofer (12" driver, 200W amp): $499
JBL EC25 center channel (2 5 1/4" drivers, titanium tweeter): $299
JBL E20 Bookshelf speakers for front: $299/ea
JBL EB10K surrounds: $279 ea

Total system price: $1954.

Now, this isn't the system I would pick - it's just what I could come up with from the same retailer in the same price range. But I guarantee you that the system above will crush the Bose in every sonic characteristic you could come up with. Personally, I'd go and pick up something from Paradigm or B&W or a similar company, and blow both these systems out the water, but I'd probably have to spend a little more money. But that's where the bang for the buck is.

I'll paste what I said earlier today in another thread regarding this company. That being said, I certainly wouldn't consider BOSE at all for H/T use.

I would like to say something in a guarded defense about Bose's pscyho-acoustic techniques:

Many years ago, a particular british bassist was looking for an amplifier to use in the large stadiums and other venues that his band had found themselves in, on their 'way to the top'. This was back in the days when PA systems were crude, and musicians had to rely on brute power onstage- and a lot of it.

A rather creative and enterprising individual got to work on the situation, and came up with a design that was NOT voiced on the 'fundemental frequency' (or 'note') that the bassist would play. He focused on the harmonics instead, knowing the human brain would "fill in" the missing freq material.

It worked, and the first 350watt, all-tube bass amplifier was born. The bassist liked the result, & the rest is history.

The bassist: Bill Wyman of the Rolling Stones.

The Amplifier: the venerable AMPEG SVT, used by countless pros for many years therafter, and even still in use today.

I'm not a big Bose buff, but some of their products (some of the car-audio systems for example) are pretty good; while some other Bose products I'd have to say are ca-ca, IMHO.

Originally posted by dhanson
But I guarantee you that the system above will crush the Bose in every sonic characteristic you could come up with. Tell me more about your guarantee and how you would measure different peoples opinions on sonic characteristics and how you would factor in personal preferences.

Calling the amazing Randi...

Tell me more about your guarantee and how you would measure different peoples opinions on sonic characteristics and how you would factor in personal preferences.


Well, I'm talking about measurements. Frequency response, distortion, smoothness of the response curve, etc. I seem to recall that people have measured the acoustimass systems to have 10db peaks and valleys in the response curve, while most other systems are rated for +-2dB or 3dB with rolloffs at the high and low end.

But that's really all I have to say about this. There's more information out there for making an informed decision than you can shake a stick at, including measurements of Bose performance by 3rd parties which are very unflattering to the brand. In the end, if you've read all this and you're still stuck on Bose, enjoy it. Whatever floats your boat.

"Data gathered by S&V from an anechoic frequency sweep test of the Acoustimass-15 unit.... ...huge emphasis on 5 - 7kHz. There is also a frequency dip between 200 Hz - 300Hz within ±3dB. The deep bass rolls off prematurely at around 50Hz and is spiked with colorization at about 200Hz. The bass module and satellites don't even begin to harmonize until beyond -10dB. Remember the representation of accurate sound reproduction on the above graph would be a flat line across the ±0dB mark. Just look how miserably Bose stacks up in that regard...
..."

Having been a Bose owner for 14 years I guess I will add my experience. I don't proclaim to follow charts or curves. I really don't know any thing about sonics .

Up until 3 days ago I had 4 Bose 301's . A 3 way speaker with a 8" woofer and 2 paper tweeters. I used these as surrounds along with a pinnacle center with 4 drivers and a tweeter. Also for a time I used another pinnacle center with 2 drivers and tweeter as a rear center 6.1 .

I was satisfied with this set up but knew it was lacking . The more I read about sound reflections in a room being bad the more I became concerned. The Bose uses reflections in the design to enhance the sound field according to Bose.

I read a thread about some entry level Infinity book shelf speakers and decided to give them a try. These Primus 150's cost $59 each while the Bose cost $149.99 ea. In 1991 dollars mind you.

The little infinity's sound much cleaner more precise and almost faster or more accurate. Let alone having all of them voiced matched has greatly improved our HT experience.
I have these crossed over at 80 Hz and a SVS 20-39 PCI+ does all of the low end work.

I was concerned about changing until I had them mounted and heard them Wow what a change. I am not a Bose hater just an X user.

My system Denon AVR3803 , 6 Infinity Primus 150's , Infinity Primus C25 center, SVS 20-39 PCI+ sub 12ga Home Depot speaker wire.

Johnathan

Originally posted by dhanson
Well, I'm talking about measurements...
Originally posted by PolkThug
Data gathered by S&V... maybe some people like how they sound, that's all I'm saying. Originally posted by PolkThug
Remember the representation of accurate sound reproduction on the above graph would be a flat line across the ±0dB mark. Just look how miserably Bose stacks up in that regard...It would be interesting to see the exact same measurements of a couple of hundred other speakers and see how they fare against this metric. Then maybe someone can plot the sales figures against them, breaking it out by various demographic categories, including levels of audio knowledge and appreciation. Are there trends, do "audiophiles" prefer "flat"? The results could also be plotted against data from the various ratings and review sites.

It seems to me that if speaker quality (sound and structure) could be derived from the "data" and "measurements" then the "perfect" speaker characteristics would be well known. We should see fairly obvious sales trends map to speakers who reflect those perfect characteristics. We would see sales trend off as the data moved away from "perfect". Ratings and reviews should also be predictable. Naturally, price and (gasp) aesthetics would need to be factored in.

Anyone know of any such research?

We do know the 'perfect' speaker characteristics - a flat frequency response from 0hz to 48 khz. This would mean that the speaker would exactly reproduce any sound wave it received in the form of electrical impulses from the amplifier. There are no speakers that can do that, but good companies publish their data so we can see how close the speakers get.

If you prefer a sound that isn't 'true' to the original, the place to modify it is with the EQ in the amplifier, not by relying on flaws in the speaker design.

For example, the Paradigm Titan, which is a $299/pr bookshelf speaker, has a frequency response of 60hz to 22khz, with deviations from linear response no more than +-2 db. They also publish frequency response curves, so you can see where the non-linearity occurs in the speaker's spectrum. This allows the consumer to make an intelligent choice, and compare the speakers to others. Honest speaker manufacturers are not afraid to publish the full performance specifications for their speakers.

Originally posted by johnathan
Having been a Bose owner for 14 years I guess I will add my experience. I don't proclaim to follow charts or curves. I really don't know any thing about sonics .

Up until 3 days ago I had 4 Bose 301's . A 3 way speaker with a 8" woofer and 2 paper tweeters. I used these as surrounds along with a pinnacle center with 4 drivers and a tweeter. Also for a time I used another pinnacle center with 2 drivers and tweeter as a rear center 6.1 .

I was satisfied with this set up but knew it was lacking . The more I read about sound reflections in a room being bad the more I became concerned. The Bose uses reflections in the design to enhance the sound field according to Bose.

I read a thread about some entry level Infinity book shelf speakers and decided to give them a try. These Primus 150's cost $59 each while the Bose cost $149.99 ea. In 1991 dollars mind you.

The little infinity's sound much cleaner more precise and almost faster or more accurate. Let alone having all of them voiced matched has greatly improved our HT experience.
I have these crossed over at 80 Hz and a SVS 20-39 PCI+ does all of the low end work.

I was concerned about changing until I had them mounted and heard them Wow what a change. I am not a Bose hater just an X user.

My system Denon AVR3803 , 6 Infinity Primus 150's , Infinity Primus C25 center, SVS 20-39 PCI+ sub 12ga Home Depot speaker wire.

Johnathan
Congrats on weening yourself off Bose and finally getting a chance to hear highs and lows! :) Although I guess credit is due to Bose for having a speaker system that lasts 14 years.

Originally posted by hmronin
I sincerely hope this belief is not widely held on this forum. If we are being honest, we must admit aesthetics does play a role in our AV purchases. Otherwise, all the snazzy brushed aluminum and stainless glitz with multi colored lighted control panels on our receivers and amps really wouldn't be available. There is enough about this hobby that has nothing to do with sound quality (whether we realize/admit this is a different story :p ), but rather appeals to our sense of what is "cool", "slick", or good looking whether it be flashing LED's, weighted knobs, or monolithic speakers in piano finishes.

A quick perusal in the members photo gallery shows that a majority of people prefer to show off their system, although putting most components behind closed armoire doors would not adversely affect sound quality.

Used equipment on Audiogon must be rated using a 1-10 scale, 10 being mint. Ratings from 3-10 relate to purely the cosmetic condition of the equipment, and while functionality is stated to be perfect. If nothing else, this should tell us that aesthetics plays a rather substantial role in AV equipment.

So if someone finds unobstrusiveness to be a factor in their decision making, its as valid as any other.:)

great post hmronin

Beowulf7

I guess after spending the money I wanted to get all the use out of them I could stand ha ha. To the untrained ear they sounded great to most friends that heard them. Remember these were the 3 way speakers not small satlites.

Johnathan

Yes, some compromise IS neccesary (I'm sorry if I implied otherwise), however, the Bose is doubtfully the least intrusive, nor the prettiest speaker system you could find for the money....there are countless better examples of asthetic and sonic balance than the Bose.

Based on my listening experieces, I agree. There are alternatives to the Bose products that offer similar aesthetics and small size that sound more natural.

Folks-
Sort of tired of the bashing - no one, I repeat, no one, takes into account that a Bose system not only includes speakers and Base Module, but also, Media center that takes all inputs, a CD player, and in some cases, a progressive scan DVD player. All put together, an acceptable price for something that sounds okay, and also is aesthetically pleasing.
As far as car bashing is concerned, my Mercedes SL cost over 100K. It came standard with a Bose.
More than 23000 views of this thread. Way more than any other posting. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. To each his/her own.
My best wishes for a healthy and happy New Year.

bose car systems sound worse than their home products, regardless of how much the car cost

Originally posted by johnathan
Beowulf7

I guess after spending the money I wanted to get all the use out of them I could stand ha ha. To the untrained ear they sounded great to most friends that heard them. Remember these were the 3 way speakers not small satlites.

Johnathan
Yeah, I see what you mean. If you spent the big bucks, you might as well try to get the most out of them. What was the reason you decided to ditch them? Did they break or did you just get fed up w/ Bose and wanted better quality?

Originally posted by wmd
bose car systems sound worse than their home products, regardless of how much the car cost

I agree. Like the previous poster, my car (Acura) also came stock w/ a Bose sound system. It sucks. Fortunately, I bought a 10" powered subwoofer so that I can enjoy the lows. :cool: (The Bose "woofer" that came w/ my car was absolutely pathetic. I almost died of laughter when I took that PoS apart. :D)

Well, sucks can be quite subjective. And Bose has different systems contracted out by different auto mfg's.

I can tell you this- the BOSE sys in my wife's '01 Millenia S does NOT suck. As a pro musician, I can tell you that the sys is pretty flat, and when playing R&R sounds pretty accurate in it's presentation.

Is it as good as any 'aftermarket' auto sys I've owned? NO! Not even close.

But it's better than many of the other 'factory' systems by far....

Does it have lows that will shake the kidneys of traffic a half a mile away? No, but most of the drivers that DO have that kind of sys listen to (c)rap that I wouldn't call music, either...go figure...

Anybody expecting top-shelf 'state of the art compnents' in a stock, factory car stereo (in comparison to aftermarket gear) is out of their mind in the first place; but that doesn't mean the system will sound like crap.

Beowulf
I really wanted a rocket speaker package for the last couple of years. But with the airline industry being what it is today . I couldn't justify spending the $2000 I wanted to.

I read the post here in the speaker forum about the Infinity's being on clearance at CompUSA and had to give them a try.All 7 speakers were less than $480 after tax. Glad I did. Now I will sell the Bose at a good price to some one just starting out.

Believe me all the Bose bashing in the world couldnt have got me out of them. But reading more about room dynamics hear on the forum really got me interested in changing to a direct reflecting speaker. Johanthan

P.S. the first 2 pictures in my gallery show the new infinity's.

^damn that screen is up high, but NICE HT

Originally posted by David James
It would be interesting to see the exact same measurements of a couple of hundred other speakers and see how they fare against this metric. ...Anyone know of any such research?

Hey David,

S&V did measure a whole bunch of satellite/sub combos for that report. If you do a little digging you'll find them (don't have the link off the top of my head). Lots of them had some problems, but none as bad as the Bose. Especially noted was the void after 16khz on the Bose.

Regards,
PolkThug

Subwoofer
Over the years I have heard that a couple dozen times from those viewing the pictures. Never from anyone viewing a movie! Seated on the couch looking straight ahead you don't have to tilt your head at all.

The bottom of the screen is only about 6 inches above your straight line of sight. It is just one of the draw backs of a multi use room. But the plus is you get the most gain from the high power screen in this setting . Johnathan

Originally posted by Crunchyriff
Well, sucks can be quite subjective. And Bose has different systems contracted out by different auto mfg's.

I can tell you this- the BOSE sys in my wife's '01 Millenia S does NOT suck. As a pro musician, I can tell you that the sys is pretty flat, and when playing R&R sounds pretty accurate in it's presentation.

Is it as good as any 'aftermarket' auto sys I've owned? NO! Not even close.

But it's better than many of the other 'factory' systems by far....

Does it have lows that will shake the kidneys of traffic a half a mile away? No, but most of the drivers that DO have that kind of sys listen to (c)rap that I wouldn't call music, either...go figure...

Anybody expecting top-shelf 'state of the art compnents' in a stock, factory car stereo (in comparison to aftermarket gear) is out of their mind in the first place; but that doesn't mean the system will sound like crap.

I'm sure the Bose sound system on your wife's Millenia sounds decent. The stock Bose on some TLs and Maximas I've heard is not bad at all. But it's pretty crappy on my Acura RSX Type-S. I don't know what components are actual Bose. For example, the HU says "Bose" on it, yet others have said it's really made my Clarion. The HU (head unit) sucks. It has very little power and it does not even display the track time of a CD, which really ticks me off. :mad:

I know for sure the "woofer" in the hatch that the Bose audio engineers put in is Bose. And it's the "suckiest piece of suck to have ever sucked" (to quote someone, I think Homer Simpson). The bass is nonexistent. Thank goodness for my investment in the Infinity BassLink. :)

That's enough Bose bashing for me ... at least for today. :p

Originally posted by johnathan
Beowulf
I really wanted a rocket speaker package for the last couple of years. But with the airline industry being what it is today . I couldn't justify spending the $2000 I wanted to.

I read the post here in the speaker forum about the Infinity's being on clearance at CompUSA and had to give them a try.All 7 speakers were less than $480 after tax. Glad I did. Now I will sell the Bose at a good price to some one just starting out.

Believe me all the Bose bashing in the world couldnt have got me out of them. But reading more about room dynamics hear on the forum really got me interested in changing to a direct reflecting speaker. Johanthan

P.S. the first 2 pictures in my gallery show the new infinity's.

I see. As I mentioned in my previous post (although for a different topic), I like Infinity. Good choice. :) I agree with subwoofer that your TV (and speakers) are WAY up there. :eek: Good luck w/ selling your Bose and keeping your job in the airline industry.

pmc is one of the best hi-fi audio co in the world i have a pair of there fb1 powered by a pioneer elite 56 txi biamp they are the best pair of speakers i have ever had. for more info go to thare web site this is gust a list of some of the pairs of speakers i have had energy exl 28p B&W 604 and 703 i have ben on a quest to find the perfect pair of speakers and by far the fb1 is the best by far for what i could afford price $3000 and they still blow away even the $6000 B&W 803 you have to hear the pmc's

Hey, I noticed AVS Forum finally upgraded to VBulletin 3.x!! :D Anyway ...

pmc is one of the best hi-fi audio co in the world i have a pair of there fb1 powered by a pioneer elite 56 txi biamp they are the best pair of speakers i have ever had. for more info go to thare web site this is gust a list of some of the pairs of speakers i have had energy exl 28p B&W 604 and 703 i have ben on a quest to find the perfect pair of speakers and by far the fb1 is the best by far for what i could afford price $3000 and they still blow away even the $6000 B&W 803 you have to hear the pmc's
That's a hell of a first post to dig this old thread up. :eek: So what does PMC have to do with Bose? :confused:

i was giving the name of a co that dos not suck

Not this thread again

I completely understand why everyone bashes Bose. However, until recently they really did have a product that offered something that no other product did. There size! Pure and simple, size does matter! Some people have a lot of limitations on how big there speakers can be and where they can place them. Until recently Bose was the only brand that offered decent slimline center channel speakers and cube speakers in the retail stores. To some people this is very important. For example: the only place I could put my center channel was on the TV stand in front of my TV. This meant that I had to have a very short thin center channel. A couple of years ago when I bought my Bose center channel that was the only speaker that I could find at a retail store that would fit my space requirements. So it actually wasn’t such a bad choice then. However, now more and more companies are selling higher quality speakers that are almost the same dimensions. I just went to Best Buy and replaced my Bose Center Channel which just didn’t project any volume what so ever, for the Athena ws-60 which can be used as a slimline center channel. I couldn’t be happier with this speaker. It sounds great and it is as crystal clear as you are going to get with such a small speaker. My only problem is that the new Athena speaker is so good that I can’t hear my Bose mains. So I guess I have to replace those now. Originally I got the Bose speakers as a gift but now I have to replace them anyway.

I have bose systems in both my GMC Denali and the wife's Acura MDX. There is a difference. I think the one in my big rig is better than the one in the Acura. I had one in a Mercedes E350 several years ago and was very dissapointed so for stock stuff in cars even though its bose it can and will be different. The best stock system I ever had was in a 1996 Dodge Caravan with an Infinity in it. I would take that in a heart beat over any of the Bose's that I have had since then... Too bad the kids are all grown up now...

I hope to someday have regulars at my home theater. Maybe even groupies. :-)


Only way I'll have groupies in my HT is if I have daughters (no kids yet. Five years of marriage, no kids, and about to have 2 HT rooms!)

Until recently Bose was the only brand that offered decent slimline center channel speakers and cube speakers in the retail stores.
Heck, the Energy Take 5 system came out 10 yrs ago! They were very little bigger than the Bose.

m&k makes the k5 it is as small as the bose cubes and the sound is much better $250 pair

I have bose systems in both my GMC Denali and the wife's Acura MDX. There is a difference. I think the one in my big rig is better than the one in the Acura. I had one in a Mercedes E350 several years ago and was very dissapointed so for stock stuff in cars even though its bose it can and will be different. The best stock system I ever had was in a 1996 Dodge Caravan with an Infinity in it. I would take that in a heart beat over any of the Bose's that I have had since then... Too bad the kids are all grown up now...
I also have an Acura - RSX Type-S - and it came w/ a Bose sound system. The head unit looks good (I think it's by Clarion) but the "design" and speakers are Bose. And it sucks. The sound is underpowered (compared to many other cars' stock sound system) and there is very little bass - even w/ the "Bose Richbass Woofer" :rolleyes:. Well, that's enough Bose bashing for me ... for now. :D

Heck, the Energy Take 5 system came out 10 yrs ago! They were very little bigger than the Bose.

Can you run down to your local Best Buy or circuit city and pick those speakers? People who buy Bose probably want to be able to just go down to the local retailer and pick up everything at once. That is why people buy Bose. They are always in your face when you walk into a Best Buy.

...instead of just bashing Bose on forums like this, which is like preaching to the choir.

Go to Amazon.com, Epinions.com and Audioreview.com and post your own accounts, pseudo-accounts, etc. among all the shill pro-Bose reviews of Bose products.

Also on Amazon.com you can give "helpful" or "unhelpful" ratings to each published reviews---give the glowing 5-star reviews "unhelpful" ratings, and the 1-star reviews "helpful" ratings.

If every person who bashes Bose on threads like this on forums like this did it, we might arrive at some actual balance to all the shill glowing reviews that the Bose advertising department posts on such Internet sites which get eaten up by total noobs and other gullible folks.

FIGHT THE POW-AH! :p

ya you can good guys has all the energy stuff they are 50% off too

Heck, the Energy Take 5 system came out 10 yrs ago! They were very little bigger than the Bose.

Can you run down to your local Best Buy or circuit city and pick those speakers?

Not from BB or CC but from a local regional retalier. I picked up my Energy Take 5 from my local Good Guys 5-6 years ago for $250. They also carry Bose and Polk satellite systems. I believe Polk has been producing sub/sat systems for 15 years. They just don't advertise all over the place like Bose. But both the Polk and Energy systems were better than any Bose sub/sats I heard for FAR less money.

Every jar has a lid. I am a little put off by the uninformed opinions of people who have never heard Bose and yet mimic the opinions of others they have read on various forums. That is human nature, lots of sheep.

On the other hand, I had a Bose LS 12 system for 6 years. At that time in my life, I wanted a system for music and to play my movie sound tracks and it sounded pretty good to me when I went to the local AV emporium. I did not audition other systems and speakers; I just heard the canned Bose setup and took the bait. It was easy and painless and I was up and running in a day.

When I invested in a HD Monitor last year and started hearing friends HT setups that used components and really good quality speakers, my eyes were opened. There is a BIG difference between Bose LS systems and a good component system with quality speaks. The problem is, The Bose systems are pretty much plug and play. With the component approach, either it’s a lot of time spent learning and auditioning (becomes a hobby) or it is plug and pay someone to set it up for you. I now call Bose "audio for dummies" and I think this is accurate. However, the choices are much better today than they were 6 years ago, and with HD displays, there is a need for HD sound. I think that Component Audio is to Bose what HD is to Standard Def.

The thing is that there are plenty of HTIB's which have the same or better quality as Bose but at 1/4 th the price or less. Bose wouldn't piss me off so much if it wasn't for them selling $200 htib systems for $2000.

i have a friend that sells these "lifestyle" systems. they run upward of 4000. he hinted that there is a 100% markup. no wonder they push them so hard................

Every jar has a lid. I am a little put off by the uninformed opinions of people who have never heard Bose and yet mimic the opinions of others they have read on various forums. That is human nature, lots of sheep.

On the other hand, I had a Bose LS 12 system for 6 years. At that time in my life, I wanted a system for music and to play my movie sound tracks and it sounded pretty good to me when I went to the local AV emporium. I did not audition other systems and speakers; I just heard the canned Bose setup and took the bait. It was easy and painless and I was up and running in a day.

When I invested in a HD Monitor last year and started hearing friends HT setups that used components and really good quality speakers, my eyes were opened. There is a BIG difference between Bose LS systems and a good component system with quality speaks. The problem is, The Bose systems are pretty much plug and play. With the component approach, either it’s a lot of time spent learning and auditioning (becomes a hobby) or it is plug and pay someone to set it up for you. I now call Bose "audio for dummies" and I think this is accurate. However, the choices are much better today than they were 6 years ago, and with HD displays, there is a need for HD sound. I think that Component Audio is to Bose what HD is to Standard Def.

Very nice assessment. I've been using component systems since I was 12 years old, so setting one up is no big deal to me, but I think when a new purchaser looks at the back of a modern receiver it can be very intimidating.

There are a whole host of people who "just want to listen to the music", so a plug and play system is appealing. They either don't have the time or interest to assemble a system bit by bit. As for, in my opinion, the over-inflated price of the equipment, I don't demonize Bose for figuring out how to market stuff and make a healthy profit.

Back when records were popular, I once paid $250 in 1977 dollars for a Shure V15 phono cartridge on the belief that I'd hear all sorts of wonderful things that a $49 Audio Technica wouldn't deliver. It was my money, so whatever. These days, there are people who will swear that exotic, expensive interconnects sound head and shoulders above plain zip cord from Home Depot.

Bose has a market niche and they milk it very well. But I think your point is well taken: when you had a chance to compare the difference between Bose and other, possibly less expensive yet more capable systems, you could hear the audible difference. Some people honestly can't.

When I would talk to co-workers about my latest audio and video purchases, and tell them I have crammed 2 SVS subwoofers, a 55" HD RPTV, plus 7 Klipsch speakers into a 1100 cu.ft. living room, most would laugh and shake their heads. Spending $9000 on a home theater was, in their opinion, close to insanity.

Personally, if someone asks my opinion BEFORE buying a Bose, I will freely give it and try to steer them in a different direction. If they are proudly showing me their new Lifestyle system, I just look for ways to praise their new toy.

i have a friend that sells these "lifestyle" systems. they run upward of 4000. he hinted that there is a 100% markup. no wonder they push them so hard................

It is statements like these that always piss me off the most. Hey buddy, if your friend is making a 100% MU on lifestyle systems, it isn't Bose ripping people off, it is your friend. Nobody makes a retail formula based on 100% MU. And before you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and have to give you a lesson in retail math, I am in the business of selling whole sale product to retailers and know all the ins and outs of the business. If you think Bose has made a specific retail agreement to sell a unit that cost wholesale $1,333 for $4000 retail, you are out of your mind.

...instead of just bashing Bose on forums like this, which is like preaching to the choir.

Go to Amazon.com, Epinions.com and Audioreview.com and post your own accounts, pseudo-accounts, etc. among all the shill pro-Bose reviews of Bose products.

Also on Amazon.com you can give "helpful" or "unhelpful" ratings to each published reviews---give the glowing 5-star reviews "unhelpful" ratings, and the 1-star reviews "helpful" ratings.

If every person who bashes Bose on threads like this on forums like this did it, we might arrive at some actual balance to all the shill glowing reviews that the Bose advertising department posts on such Internet sites which get eaten up by total noobs and other gullible folks.

FIGHT THE POW-AH! :p

I agree.

This probably doesn't add value to this long ass thread that I don't feel like reading though, but here's my experience with BOSE products:

1) Back before I was relatively informed about A/V equipent, I bought the BOSE center channel speaker. I thought it sounded good at the time. Now I hate it and can't wait to change it.

2) I have a BOSE system in my car (Infinity G35) and I think it sound great up to 24 volume (max is 31). Above that and the mid/highs get louder while the bass stays put. If the bass could keep up with the rest above 24, I would be very hapy with it. I have heard high-end MB Quartz system that blow it away, but for my listening needs it is fine (and it's not like I had a chioce - I bought the car for reasons other than the stereo).

3) A friend/coworker bought the BOSE cube setup for the WAF factor, and he loves the way it sounds. But he is both informed and indifferent when it comes to audio.

Everyone has to remember - the people that post here and others that are 'into' A/V equipment make up a SMALL FRACTION of people that just need to hear music or HT. Since BOSE spends their R&D $$$ on marketing, they are constantly in the faces of all mid-fi buyers when they are out at BB and CC shopping around. If another company wants to take them on, they will have to spend $$$ on marketing, and their prices will rival BOSE when all is said and done, and a once great bang-for the buck stsyem would be not so much.

I do my best to inform friends BEFORE they buy to set them straight, but (like my coworker that got the BOSE cubes) I'm not about to tell someone they wasted their money as long as they are happy with what they have. Then I'll just come across like a pompous music snob (which I very well may be) =).

This probably doesn't add value to this long ass thread that I don't feel like reading though, but here's my experience with BOSE products:

1) Back before I was relatively informed about A/V equipent, I bought the BOSE center channel speaker. I thought it sounded good at the time. Now I hate it and can't wait to change it.

2) I have a BOSE system in my car (Infinity G35) and I think it sound great up to 24 volume (max is 31). Above that and the mid/highs get louder while the bass stays put. If the bass could keep up with the rest above 24, I would be very hapy with it. I have heard high-end MB Quartz system that blow it away, but for my listening needs it is fine (and it's not like I had a chioce - I bought the car for reasons other than the stereo).




Wow EMayhem I think I have had the exact same experience. I bought the Bose center channel about 2 years ago. I loved it because it was so small and it sounded ok. It wasn’t that expensive either about $170. Then I heard the new Athena center channel and I realized why all of my friends hated the Bose center channel. I also own a G35 Sedan with the Bose speakers. It is ok but I know I could put together a much better system for about $600 instead of the $1000+ Infiniti charges for the Bose. I had to get the Bose to get power memory seats so I had no choice. It isn’t that bad at normal listening levels so I can live with it. However, I have had one positive experience with Bose. My mother in Law just bought the IPod Bose speaker base combo thing. She absolutely loves it and I must say that it really did sound pretty good to me. It is easy to use and it really fills the whole house with music. What more could you ask for? I am not sure how much she paid for it but I think you would have to pry it out of her cold dead hands to get it away from her. Is that IPod speaker really that good? Is there anything else that is better than it in a similar package? Bose must be doing something right they pretty much rape everyone and they still walk out with a smile on their face.

Wow I checked and that Bose speaker was $300! That is pretty steep. Has anyone tried these other speakers for the Ipod. Do they fill the room like Bose does? What is it that makes Bose sound like it is a bigger system than it really is?

Bose Speaker at BB
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=6979246&type=product&id=1099387490094

All speaker system for the Ipod at BB.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?type=category&id=pcmcat33100050026

Wow EMayhem I think I have had the exact same experience. I bought the Bose center channel about 2 years ago. I loved it because it was so small and it sounded ok. It wasn’t that expensive either about $170. Then I heard the new Athena center channel and I realized why all of my friends hated the Bose center channel. I also own a G35 Sedan with the Bose speakers. It is ok but I know I could put together a much better system for about $600 instead of the $1000+ Infiniti charges for the Bose. I had to get the Bose to get power memory seats so I had no choice. It isn’t that bad at normal listening levels so I can live with it. However, I have had one positive experience with Bose. My mother in Law just bought the IPod Bose speaker base combo thing. She absolutely loves it and I must say that it really did sound pretty good to me. It is easy to use and it really fills the whole house with music. What more could you ask for? I am not sure how much she paid for it but I think you would have to pry it out of her cold dead hands to get it away from her. Is that IPod speaker really that good? Is there anything else that is better than it in a similar package? Bose must be doing something right they pretty much rape everyone and they still walk out with a smile on their face.

I don't know how much it is, but you can get this (http://www.klipsch.com/ifi/)

I don't know how much it is, but you can get this (http://www.klipsch.com/ifi/)

That is way too big. The point of most of the Bose products are that they are small, look good, and are easy to setup. That is part of the reason that people pay stupid sums of money for their product. The people that buy the product don’t want to learn how to set it up or to learn about how it works. They want someone to say this is the most expensive product on the market so it must be the best.

That is way too big. The point of most of the Bose products are that they are small, look good, and are easy to setup. That is part of the reason that people pay stupid sums of money for their product. The people that buy the product don’t want to learn how to set it up or to learn about how it works. They want someone to say this is the most expensive product on the market so it must be the best.



it is not the most expensive look at pmc they have a pair of speakers that are $75.000

That is way too big. The point of most of the Bose products are that they are small, look good, and are easy to setup. That is part of the reason that people pay stupid sums of money for their product. The people that buy the product don’t want to learn how to set it up or to learn about how it works. They want someone to say this is the most expensive product on the market so it must be the best.

I'm not advocating that you buy it, but I just happened to see the speakers yesterday and they are small. The sub looks like the Pro Media one which is also small. I agree that this is more difficult to set up than the Bose, but we are only talking about plugging the speakers into the dock.

I walked in to all the music stores and "Best Buy" stores I could find and gave a listen to all the systems they had.

I finally got the system I thought sounded best to me. I identified the systems by number and not name, and without looking at them.

I got a Bose system.

I didn't care about name or reputation. I only cared about what I heard when I was listening to the music.

I suppose I might buy a subwoofer for enhancing movie audio because my kids want (might need) a bit of a kick.

Datacomm you got the system that impressed you and you are happy so definitely you should enjoy your system.

To others and Bose bashers, give Bose and its supporters a break. I think you got to tip the hat to Bose for its marketing. It practically cornered the consumer market and car market. It's componets are not always bad, and if they were bad, then so are many others. Their only "sin" is that they charge a system $3000 when one can find a $1500 one that easily sound better, just as egonomical and good looking. The trick is most consumers don't know where to look or care to look. They go to Best Buy gets advice from people with no knowledge. They don't know what other brands to listen to. And if they do, the "Bose" name is often a powerful endorsement factor. Ask an average consumer if they know what Paradigm, Axiom, Athena, KEF is. Why would they trust those brands they have never heard of?

The value of things are what people are willing to pay for. Many things are overpriced in life. Bose is just one successful company in getting people happily pay $3000 for something they could easily have for $1500 if they look harder. People don't have time to look harder. I just listened to a pair of JMLab 926's for a "discount price" of Cdn$3500. There are a huge number of people who will say ALL high end audio are overpriced. I think they have a strong case.

Instead of buying Bose speakers, buy their stock! I bet they will be a lot safer than the stocks of the other brands! (Okay I have no knowledge in the stock market :) .

Ben

bose sucks ass thats the end of it

So you are saying that McDonalds is good food? Budweiser is good beer?




Uuummmmm.....Yes!

These are the same people who hate Microsoft, Intel, Starbucks and Walmart.

Bose are good business folks, not good speakers builders for the price. I can't tell you how many people I've 'Tried' to steer away from Bose that went with them anyway. Some very happy, others upgraded quickly once they were 'caught' by the HT bug. It's all personal preference, but some facts are facts. For those that just want a small system that sounds good...why not listen to a few others and pay 1/2 the price for another system that sounds as good if not better.

Another thing I don't like about Bose setups at stores is the close proximity of the speakers. They are all set up with the rears directly behind you. Of course you are going to feel immursed by this system when all the speakers are no further than 5 feet from your head. I guess if you want to set up your system in a closet, you should be fine.

Someone once told me..... "No Highs? No Lows? Must be Bose!"

But again, if you have Bose and are happy with them, it doesn't matter. I'd rather see someone with a set of Bose that love them than (like a good friend of mine) have (2) $2K receivers, $5K in speakers, a $7K 70" SONY HD and the picture looks horrible on the TV due to NO calibration and he's watching all his movies in 6 channel stereo so when someone talks, it comes alive in all 6 speakers. That irritates me more...someone that spends for high dollar things and gets no more out of it than a $2K setup for everything.

American beer tastes like shandy. Try a proper drink- Murphy's, Guiness, paint stripper etc ;-)

Mass market American beer tastes like shandy. The specialty breweries make absolutely world class product. Next time you are in the US get yourself some Victory Storm King Stout. It makes Guiness look like weak tea.

All opinion of your taste. People from Europe love Budweiser and Miller because they don't normally get it. This of course has nothing to do with Bose speakers.

Just remember that if you use one of those Bose cube-speaker setups to put the subwoofer behind the TV since it uses something like a 500 Hz crossover to compensate for those cubes not being able to play much mid-range... or at least that's what I read somewhere. (Of course, you should put it behind the TV since there's quite a bit of directionality above 100 Hz and you do want the voices to sound like they are coming from the screen.)

I have the Bose acoustamas 15 speakers and a Sony a/v receiver, and it sounds fantastic in my room. I constantly amaze people when i play things for them, i am super happy with them. The louder i make them, the better the system sounds. Clear, crisp sound and when i want the booming bass, i just hit the bass boost on the Sony. I think different rooms really make a difference, and as already said, the location of the speakers and sub-woofer, i guess i just got lucky and hit the right combination. Also, the surround-sound of dvd does sound much better than the stereo sound of a cd. If you hear the system playing a cd you could say its not the best, but with the 5.1 dvds its awesome.

I also have a Bose companion system in my computer room, and its hooked up to a small 7" Sony portable dvd player that has now just gotten hooked up to a 23" Samsung flat panel lcd tv, and you should hear how great this little Bose system sounds for only $250. Not surround sound, but for a small 10 x 10 computer room tv set-up, its wonderful.

I know its sometimes fashionable to knock Bose, and yes, the big Bose systems are expensive for what you get, but for me, they are worth the money.

Hey Beowolf7, one thing i will say is that my wife has a Bose system in her car (an Acura CL), and its disappointing, my car sounds much better with whatever the factory puts in as standard in an RSX (not the "S" model), but i know its not Bose.

just posted above, forgot to subscribe to the thread, was not sure if i could do that without posting again, so this is a wasted post, ignore me! :D

Haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if I missed it...but why haven't more people been mentioning the new ORB speakers from orbaudio.com as a Bose replacement for those looking for BOSE sized speakers.

Bose ... never liked 'em.
I did have Studiocraft speakers in college in the 70's and they were supposedly a Bose "house brand". Have no idea if that was true but the tweeters were identical to Bose and they were made in the same town. They were decent speakers of a conventional design.

Most recently went to Chili's with the wife and the music was so ear-piercing and distorted it was impossible to have a conversation. I looked up and they were Bose speakers. Luckily the bartender obliged and turned it down a bit so I didn't have to resort to stabbing the speaker with my dinner fork. Now before we get into a debate regarding the best stabbing implement, I must mention that these particular speakers were of the outdoor variety with metal mesh grilles. I think a butter knife would have been less effective than a fork in this case, but individual results may vary.

Budweiser ... never liked it.
One of the best pilsners available today in my opinion is Warsteiner. A great all-around beer along with Harp, Bass, Guiness, Spaten, Sprecher, Goose Island, Sam Adams, and nearly all microbrews.

With A/B's quality ingredients, process control and quality assurance, just imagine what they could do if they brewed a beer that actually followed the German Purity Law of 1516? And why did they suddenly go from "Beechwood aged" to assuring freshness?

you guys should not even be talking about bose they suck you can get the same stuff that even sounds better for 50% less they are a marketing co not a hi-fi speaker co yet they charge hi-fi money for crappie speakers that are made in mexico and people pay it because they don't know better and are cot up in the marketing well if people pay for it then i gees they deserve what they get for not educating themselves gust a little when your spending up to 1 2 3 4 or 5 grand on sound you should at least educate yourself on what your buying and most people don't and that's why boss is so successful because of ignorant ass people like most of you.



here is a list of speaker brands to research and go check out


1.energy

2.keff

3.B&W

4.m&k

5.tryad



this is a short list of some of the co that you can get speakers from that sound better then boss a lot better for 40 50 and 60% off the boss price and don't tell me its personal pref it is but not in the bose case gust trust me and go and check some of the speakers on the list and if you relay want to hear something amazing check out PMC if you live in cali go to reel tome sight and sound in dana point they have some PMC speakers that you can see hope this has ben helpful to all you want to be audiophiles.

its reel time sight and sound

why did this thread rise from the grave again?? :confused:

you guys should not even be talking about bose they suck you can get the same stuff that even sounds better for 50% less they are a marketing co not a hi-fi speaker co yet they charge hi-fi money for crappie speakers that are made in mexico and people pay it because they don't know better and are cot up in the marketing well if people pay for it then i gees they deserve what they get for not educating themselves gust a little when your spending up to 1 2 3 4 or 5 grand on sound you should at least educate yourself on what your buying and most people don't and that's why boss is so successful because of ignorant ass people like most of you.



here is a list of speaker brands to research and go check out


1.energy

2.keff

3.B&W

4.m&k

5.tryad



this is a short list of some of the co that you can get speakers from that sound better then boss a lot better for 40 50 and 60% off the boss price and don't tell me its personal pref it is but not in the bose case gust trust me and go and check some of the speakers on the list and if you relay want to hear something amazing check out PMC if you live in cali go to reel tome sight and sound in dana point they have some PMC speakers that you can see hope this has ben helpful to all you want to be audiophiles.

Wow, can you say run-on? :) Anyway, I agree with you that there are more speakers out there for a lower price. One of the major reasons for Bose being sold is their size since some people only want surround sound from speakers that are the size of your fist.

Wow, can you say run-on?

No kidding!.....can you imagine trying to say all that without taking a breath?!! :eek:
macfordgt... how about some punctuation, man? It really helps people to understand what the heck you're trying to say!

A number of years ago, Bose showed up at the Minnesota State Fair with a trailer that demonstrated their AM5 speakers. The Bose people were dressed in suits that made them look cult like to me. They looked like they had just come out of the Biosphere or something. Way too much hype!

Considering the size of the cubes, I didn't think they sounded that bad. But for the price, I think there is better value available out there.

JMHO.

I remember several years ago, Bose had this "Rolling Thunder" semi with their pro series speakers mounted on the outside corners (and bass modules mounted underneath); it wasn't impressive (imagine an oversized Lifestyle system).

I was interested more with the guy with the extented-cab truck with four Orion 15's.

I'm not particularly fond of Bose, but the article linked to here and referenced above a couple of times makes some major mistakes in its attack on Bose. I wouldn't trust it.

http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

In particular, he shows the frequency response of the "subwoofer" and satellite and then fails to add them properly when discussing the combined response. He drawas a horizontal line at -6 db and truncates both curves below that point, showing a gap. But you have to add the two responses, and two speakers each at -6 db at the same frequency add to -3 db. In other words, the gap is more like -3 db than -6 db, which is within the usually allowed tolerances (and according to this same article barely detectable.) OK, I'm not saying the response is great but I'm not sure I would cite or trust this article.

n short, bose is most successful company that I have encountered, but owes 100% of its success to its ingenious marking department. They have convinced virtually everyone who knows only a modest amount about electronics that their products are of highest quality and sound the absolute best. Nothing could be further from the truth, and only academic audiophile enthusiasts realize this fallacy simply because they have experience and knowledge that most don't. But you don't have to be an audiophile to understand that Bose is overpriced, cheap and lousy. You just have to do a little consumer research.



The fact is, one who pays for a system pays 80% for the bose name and the other 20% for the actual speaker system + oem manufacture markup + manufacture markup + retail market. The system's sound quality, build quality and reliability can be matched for less than 50% in most cases, and in some cases even only 25% !

Some people say "but its bose right?"

I say exactly.. stay away! Skim though these user reviews. You'll notice most of them are written by amateurs that either know little about audio. , and when you realize you can have better sound for less than 1/3 of this product, you'll feel silly for buying bose.

Good luck and I truly hope this helps some of you make a better choice.

someone earlier mentioned the larger bose designs that make it into larger venues. I worked in one of these venues, and they are just as bad. They distort early which is the worst and really need to be behind a limiter all of the time since they also.. don't tend to take pushing very well ---.... all in all, when the person on the other end is talkign quietly - everyone complains and there is nothing to do since you just can't give ne more.

no one should be talking about bose they suck ........................

could someone please help me. was all set to buy bose acoustimass until i fell across this forum. one reason for going for bose was the size of the speakers and the "supposed" superior sound quality.
could some one please suggest an alternative?

much appreciated.

check out the paradigm mini monitor series at paradigmaudio.com Look into getting two mini monitors, 1 cc370, 2 adp 370's and a sub. That combo will annihilate bose ;)

could someone please help me. was all set to buy bose acoustimass until i fell across this forum. one reason for going for bose was the size of the speakers and the "supposed" superior sound quality.
could some one please suggest an alternative?


Christ, even the Polk and Infinity HTIB packages would demolish that Bose junk.

You'd get much better sound quality out of small bookshelf speakers like the Ascend CBM-170s though.

What's your max budget?

Just remember that if you use one of those Bose cube-speaker setups to put the subwoofer behind the TV since it uses something like a 500 Hz crossover to compensate for those cubes not being able to play much mid-range... or at least that's what I read somewhere. (Of course, you should put it behind the TV since there's quite a bit of directionality above 100 Hz and you do want the voices to sound like they are coming from the screen.)

The voices still come out of the center. I have disconnected the center speaker on my AM-10. No dialog at all. Just some muffled sounds coming from the bass module, but I do agree that bass module is best in the front of the room.

It's been a while since I've shopped for speakers but here are some very highly regarded brands in the same price range as Bose, and highly regarded by people who conduct blind listening tests and don't just buy based on advertising:

Axiom
Swan
Rockets (type in AV123 in Google)

I have Athena Audition series speakers. They're in more of a budget class than the above, but for the money they're very good. If you don't have much $$$, check those out too.

For subwoofers, definitely check out SVS and Hsu. Both online dealers, amazing quality for the money. I have an SVS and have never looked back. Amazing, house shaking bass.

I have an SVS and have never looked back. Amazing, house shaking bass.

I'm curious, which model SVS? I have a hard time deciding between the PB10 and the Hsu STF-2, though I have the impression the Hsu is better for music and SVS better for HT.

The other day, this happened:

Was talking to a nice couple about a 42" Panasonic Plasma at my Best Buy. I had mentioned earlier the importance of audio in a proper Home Theater setup. Offhand, kind of smugly, the guy comments, "So, what about speakers? Bose is the best out there, right?"

I paused. You know these kinds of people. You have to be gentle, or they freak.

"Well, no." That's all I could muster.

"What do you mean?!" I could hear the shock in his voice.

I almost launched into a tirade about marketing strategies, flimsy paper cones, foam surrounds, and frequency response, when I remembered something important.

Our Best Buy had just gotten a new Magnolia Home Theater.

"I'll tell you what. I'll let you hear this $3,000 Bose System right here, and then we'll walk down to Magnolia and let you hear $3,000 worth of speakers there, okay? You can decide for yourself what you like."

We listened to the Bose. Their heads were nodding, toes tapping. But I didn't fear.

Five minutes later, the drum scene from "House of Flying Daggers" faded from a Definitive Technology powered tower setup. There was a second and a half pause.

Simultaneously, they said "Wow."

I left them with the Magnolia folks, and slipped out, knowing my work there was done.

Don't be fooled by Boses advertising strategy. They advertise in every Circuit City and Bost Buy ad. Bose also had their own stores in the malls. Consumer reports even gave them a low rating. People who think that Best Buy is a good place to shop for good AV equipment t are fooling themselves. When people drive 10-15 miles to shop at a Best Buy instead of going to their local high end audio shop are suckers. Best Buy sells junk for uneducated consumers. People should shop at specialty shops and buy Boston, B&W, Energy and Paradym. I avoid Best Buy at all costs. Best Buy is a waste of space.

Can I get an AMEN?! :)

When people drive 10-15 miles to shop at a Best Buy instead of going to their local high end audio shop are suckers. People should shop at specialty shops and buy Boston, B&W, Energy and Paradym.

I agree with everything you wrote except for the part about "local high end audio shop." Depends on the ones in your area, some of them can be just as bad as BB or CC, just in a different way (trying to push $100/ft. cables, etc.).

Don't be fooled by Boses advertising strategy. They advertise in every Circuit City and Bost Buy ad. Bose also had their own stores in the malls. Consumer reports even gave them a low rating. People who think that Best Buy is a good place to shop for good AV equipment t are fooling themselves. When people drive 10-15 miles to shop at a Best Buy instead of going to their local high end audio shop are suckers. Best Buy sells junk for uneducated consumers. People should shop at specialty shops and buy Boston, B&W, Energy and Paradym. I avoid Best Buy at all costs. Best Buy is a waste of space.

You're an idiot. Not everyone can afford those speakers, and not everyone could appreciate or desire them even if they could. If Best Buy was a waste of space, they'd close, because no one would shop there.

I can't stand snobs. You probably think nobody should buy a Chevy either, and should only drive Mercedes.

You're an idiot. Not everyone can afford those speakers, and not everyone could appreciate or desire them even if they could. If Best Buy was a waste of space, they'd close, because no one would shop there.

I can't stand snobs. You probably think nobody should buy a Chevy either, and should only drive Mercedes.

Paradigm, PSB, B&W, etc...

...ALL make entry level priced speakers.

Just because it's a BMW, Jaguar, etc...

...that doesn't mean that it costs $80k -$120k (or more).

They ALL make less expensive models...

...why spend $20k-$25k on a Mini Cooper when you can get a BMW for $30k-$35k?

Why spend $3k-4k on a Bose Lifestyle System when you piece together a nice system featuring a REAL A/V Receiver, a REAL DVD player, REAL speakers (5, 6, or 7), and a REAL subwoofer?

You're an idiot. Not everyone can afford those speakers, and not everyone could appreciate or desire them even if they could. If Best Buy was a waste of space, they'd close, because no one would shop there.

I can't stand snobs. You probably think nobody should buy a Chevy either, and should only drive Mercedes.

Actually if Bose speakers sold for maybe 1/4th of their retail prices, they wouldn't get half as much sh*t from audio folk as they do right now. But for the money you can get far better quality, EVEN if you have to choose from the pathetic selection of those big-box stores.

18

Why all the Bose Bashing?? Bose makes a fine product and the Acoutimas systems are an excellent choice for someone who enjoys decent clarity and likes to watch DVD's without shaking down the house. My Acoustimas 7 has served me well and I have listened to few systems even costing 1000's more be as good as the bose. One can get a Acoutimas 5, 7 or 10 on Ebay slightly used for 3-6 hundred dollars. You cant beat that.

18

Why all the Bose Bashing?? Bose makes a fine product and the Acoutimas systems are an excellent choice for someone who enjoys decent clarity and likes to watch DVD's without shaking down the house. My Acoustimas 7 has served me well and I have listened to few systems even costing 1000's more be as good as the bose. One can get a Acoutimas 5, 7 or 10 on Ebay slightly used for 3-6 hundred dollars. You cant beat that. Bose people are like Macintosh people We prefer simplicity, quality, and simply ignore those who bash Bose yet shop at Wally World for a $300 Happy meal and state " It sounds better than a Bose-

Bose people are like Macintosh people We prefer simplicity, quality, and simply ignore those who bash Bose yet shop at Wally World for a $300 Happy meal and state " It sounds better than a Bose-

Well that's the thing...my cousin has the Acoustimass 7 system, and my sister has a $300 Sony cube system. And guess what, they both sound equally bad.

The difference is that my cousin could've bought a much better system for the same money that he paid.

Like I said, if Bose was sold for 1/3 or 1/4 of its retail prices it would just be cheap junk instead of overpriced junk. :rolleyes:

And please, don't insult Macintosh! I am a PC user, but have used Macs before and they are actually of better quality though a little more expensive. Bose is lousy quality for a lot more money, that's what makes it such a SCAM.

Did I hear Boseman put the words "Bose" and "quality" in the same sentence? :D

Did I hear Boseman put the words "Bose" and "quality" in the same sentence? :D

x 2

I have Bose 501 for my front speakers. (No HT yet will be setting up in about 2 weeks) I have had them for about 8 years now and they have served me well. I got them while I was in Japan for $300 for the pair. I have gotten several positive comments over the years about the sound comming from those two speakers.They do have some help from an Infinity sub.

That being said I have not been impressed with the Bose "systems" I have heard. And they are everywhere.

18

I have listened to few systems even costing 1000's more be as good as the bose. You cant beat that.

Have you fell and bumped your head? :rolleyes:

Yes, you can.
With a name like Boseman, and your first couple of posts you are defending the common stance of educated A/V'ers you might get banished quickly. :p

"I have Bose 501 for my front speakers. I got them while I was in Japan for $300. "
Doesn't count. The 501's are real speakers with tweeters and 6.5" woofers and you got them for $300

In Canada the Bose Life Style 48 system is Can $5,000. Acoustimass module + the tiny cubes and the combo DVD player and receiver. I went to the Bose web site to get specs like Xover point, watts, size of speakers etc. There is nothing -- like zero info.

For $3,700 an AV shop (they do not carry Bose) is offering a Cambridge Audio HT receiver and DVD player, 5 Mordaunt Short speakers (floor standing fronts), a sub, and an Infocus projector and Screen.

The next most expensive Bose Life Style System the, 38 is CAN $4000.
For $2700 that same AV shop offers a Harmon Kardon HT receiver and HK DVD player, 5.1 ch Paradigm HT speaker setup with sub-woofer, an Optoma projector and screen.

For $1,000 less you get better sound and they throw in a projector and screen.

End of story - To bash Bose, just compare what you get, and more importantly compare what you hear for the same or less money.

Just one more vote AGAINST purchasing bose. I have been through dozens of speakers and when I think back, the bose were the most disappointing, especially after all the advertisement hype. Just want new buyers to read these posts and make their own decision.
If they were decent I would say so, I still have and don't use a center ch vcs 10. I hooked up an old door speaker from my car that sounded better. People should really be warned about the bose quality problem. Maybe they have sunk all their money into advertising instead of r and d, and with so much advertising they must be decent, to new buyers.

Ever notice in the specs (crutchfield) bose does not list freq. response?

This just came to mind while reading some of the above. I like to go to Hot Rod shows when they come around.It is obvious that some of the people spend big bucks on their cars for whatever reasons, but i don't hear them standing around bashing others. Just an observation.

I just sold my center speaker (Bose VCS-10) and my rear surrounds (Bose 6.2's) to a co-worker for $150. I paid for them $199 for the center and about $250 for the 6.2's. I thought they were really good until I got my Def-Tech system. Then I was justified for selling the old speakers that cheap. My co-worker thinks Bose is one of the best if not the best brand of speakers. He thinks he made the deal of his life. I let him be. Did I do bad?

I'm no expert on hot rods, but my guess would be is that there's no maker of hot rods that relies on advertising hype and consumer stupidity to dominate the market by selling $50K cars that perform about as well as $10K cars, publishes no specs on their cars, and sues any magazines that publish negative reviews of their products, including even Consumer Reports.

LOL, if I were a hot rod enthusiast I wouldn't be able to find anyone to bash either.

I just sold my center speaker (Bose VCS-10) and my rear surrounds (Bose 6.2's) to a co-worker for $150. I paid for them $199 for the center and about $250 for the 6.2's. I thought they were really good until I got my Def-Tech system. Then I was justified for selling the old speakers that cheap. My co-worker thinks Bose is one of the best if not the best brand of speakers. He thinks he made the deal of his life. I let him be. Did I do bad?

LOL not really, you gave him that stuff for $150 which is more than I would pay but you didn't screw him for say, $600. :D

I'm no expert on hot rods, but my guess would be is that there's no maker of hot rods that relies on advertising hype and consumer stupidity to dominate the market by selling $50K cars that perform about as well as $10K cars, publishes no specs on their cars, and sues any magazines that publish negative reviews of their products, including even Consumer Reports.

LOL, if I were a hot rod enthusiast I wouldn't be able to find anyone to bash either.
One thing about Bose, is that it does hold it's resale value. You can thank their PR dept for that.

"Named product of the year in 1983" Sonic Marvel, blah, blah, blah!! :p

One thing about Bose, is that it does hold it's resale value. You can thank their PR dept for that.

"Named product of the year in 1983" Sonic Marvel, blah, blah, blah!! :p

True.

Ditto for Sony, which is also mediocre but at least not so overpriced.

True.

Ditto for Sony, which is also mediocre but at least not so overpriced.
Sony's on my sh1tlist right now after the stunt they tried to pull w/ putting spyware and rootkit in their audio CDs (http://www.sysinternals.com/blog/2005/10/sony-rootkits-and-digital-rights.html). :mad:

Paradigm, PSB, B&W, etc...

...ALL make entry level priced speakers.

Just because it's a BMW, Jaguar, etc...

...that doesn't mean that it costs $80k -$120k (or more).

They ALL make less expensive models...

...why spend $20k-$25k on a Mini Cooper when you can get a BMW for $30k-$35k?

Why spend $3k-4k on a Bose Lifestyle System when you piece together a nice system featuring a REAL A/V Receiver, a REAL DVD player, REAL speakers (5, 6, or 7), and a REAL subwoofer?

I was not at all trying to indicate that I support Bose, haha! I was mainly lashing out at that rediculous bash of Best Buy and other Big Box retailers. I reread my post in context and it did come across differently from how I meant it. I completely agree...Bose is a rediculous ripoff.

I personally own Paradigm Studio 20's, so yes, I agree with your recommendation!

if some1 got so sick of their Bose LS38 ($3000) and would like to sell it for $1700, is this worth to buy???? to use??? to hang up on the wall???? please help me to make up my mind. thx!

if some1 got so sick of their Bose LS38 ($3000) and would like to sell it for $1700, is this worth to buy???? to use??? to hang up on the wall???? please help me to make up my mind. thx!
IMO, No, no, and no. If they GAVE it to you, sell it on eBay, take the money and buy something that actually SOUNDS good. You can buy a lot of great sound for $1700!! Spend some time on this forum and you'll find PLENTY of better uses for that money. :)

my signature says it all :mad:

IMO, No, no, and no. If they GAVE it to you, sell it on eBay, take the money and buy something that actually SOUNDS good. You can buy a lot of great sound for $1700!! Spend some time on this forum and you'll find PLENTY of better uses for that money. :)

Ditto.

In a (more) intellectual response, if it was me, no I wouldn't spend the money on the LS at $1700. However, it might be your cup of tea. For example, not everyone needs a receiver that can take millions of inputs. Not everyone needs to have the best sound quality (though that is 100% subjective, so it doesn't even matter to be honest), and not everyone cares enough or understands enough to make all different connections, etc.

For some, the LS is perfect, including those who don't want to deal with alot of hassle, those who can't stand the sight of too many components or larger speakers, and those who want the name of Bose (while this may mean nothing to people here, it means alot to people who aren't audiophiles or semi-audiophiles or audio enthusiasts).

If you fit any of the above, then maybe the LS is a good choice for you.

I've heard TONS of surround sound systems. Can you get better than the LS for the money? Yes. Is that what everyone should do? No. Does the lifestyle system sound absolutely horrible? No.

People here just harp on Bose because it's "the cool thing to do". I agree with alot of points that people make here, but not to the ridiculous degree that alot of members do.

Bose came out with a product, they marketed it the right way, it gives people surround sound, etc and keeps them happy.

If nothing else, the LS owners out there who don't know any better are happier than poor saps like us who are always trying to improve the weak link of our systems.

I'm SO sick of this discussion. (Yeah, I know, quit reading it, hehe.) The problem is, I hate seeing people get ripped off.

There are two types of people who defend Bose as a company:

1. Bose employees.
2. People whose egos are too huge to admit they made a huge mistake and got screwed after they find out what a horrible deal they got when they bought their Bose systems.

The Bose system might be perfect for you... If you're deaf and have a gun to your head forcing you to spend $1700 RIGHT NOW.

People do not bash Bose because it's the "thing to do." People bash Bose because they charge 5-10 times what their stuff is worth, and they use deceptive marketing practices. They're ROBBING people, and that's why they're somewhat unpopular. Pretty simple.

I am no Bose fan and don't own a single Bose product. But the fact is that their new Wave Music System and their Companion 3 multimedia system have won some good reviews. I have not auditioned either.

Review of Companion 3:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1633743,00.asp

Review of Wave Music System:
http://www.devhardware.com/c/a/PC-Speakers/Wave-Music-System-Review/

Both these reviewers have praised Bose. Are their observations wrong? Obviously, any system has pros and cons. Same with Bose or with any other manufacturer. I reiterate- I am NOT a Bose fan. Neither am I a Bose basher. I just seek your opinion regarding those systems and those reviews.

In a (more) intellectual response, if it was me, no I wouldn't spend the money on the LS at $1700. However, it might be your cup of tea. For example, not everyone needs a receiver that can take millions of inputs. Not everyone needs to have the best sound quality (though that is 100% subjective, so it doesn't even matter to be honest), and not everyone cares enough or understands enough to make all different connections, etc.

For some, the LS is perfect, including those who don't want to deal with alot of hassle, those who can't stand the sight of too many components or larger speakers, and those who want the name of Bose (while this may mean nothing to people here, it means alot to people who aren't audiophiles or semi-audiophiles or audio enthusiasts).

If you fit any of the above, then maybe the LS is a good choice for you.

I've heard TONS of surround sound systems. Can you get better than the LS for the money? Yes. Is that what everyone should do? No. Does the lifestyle system sound absolutely horrible? No.

People here just harp on Bose because it's "the cool thing to do". I agree with alot of points that people make here, but not to the ridiculous degree that alot of members do.

Bose came out with a product, they marketed it the right way, it gives people surround sound, etc and keeps them happy.

If nothing else, the LS owners out there who don't know any better are happier than poor saps like us who are always trying to improve the weak link of our systems.

Thanks Midfiman for being so kind and reasonable to explain the pros and cons of Bose LS38!!!!!
If I would like to spend around 2k, could you or any1 please help me w. some options of a better system. I use the system for 70% of Movie and 30% Music.
Some thing looks nice to please tha Wife. Thx again!!

I am no Bose fan and don't own a single Bose product. But the fact is that their new Wave Music System and their Companion 3 multimedia system have won some good reviews. I have not auditioned either.

Review of Companion 3:
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1633743,00.asp

Review of Wave Music System:
http://www.devhardware.com/c/a/PC-Speakers/Wave-Music-System-Review/

Both these reviewers have praised Bose. Are their observations wrong? Obviously, any system has pros and cons. Same with Bose or with any other manufacturer. I reiterate- I am NOT a Bose fan. Neither am I a Bose basher. I just seek your opinion regarding those systems and those reviews.
Bose once sued Consumer Reports for a mediocre review... and lost. Hence you'll not find a negative review of any Bose product. Get it? Do some searching, you'll find out.

I'm SO sick of this discussion. (Yeah, I know, quit reading it, hehe.) The problem is, I hate seeing people get ripped off.

Maybe it's not for some of them.

There are two types of people who defend Bose as a company:

1. Bose employees.
2. People whose egos are too huge to admit they made a huge mistake and got screwed after they find out what a horrible deal they got when they bought their Bose systems.

I'M NEITHER AND WHILE I HAVE MANY PROBLEMS WITH THEIR PRODUCT, IT FILLS A NICHE FOR MANY.


People do not bash Bose because it's the "thing to do." People bash Bose because they charge 5-10 times what their stuff is worth

People here were asked in a thread a while back to put together a system like their new lifestyle system (LS38?) THAT INCLUDED ALL THE FEATURES of that system, and it was harder than it seemed to do this in the same price area.


They're ROBBING people, and that's why they're somewhat unpopular. Pretty simple.

Are you kidding? People are waiting in line to volunteerily throw money at Bose!

Maybe it's not for some of them.

I'M NEITHER AND WHILE I HAVE MANY PROBLEMS WITH THEIR PRODUCT, IT FILLS A NICHE FOR MANY.

People here were asked in a thread a while back to put together a system like their new lifestyle system (LS38?) THAT INCLUDED ALL THE FEATURES of that system, and it was harder than it seemed to do this in the same price area.

Are you kidding? People are waiting in line to volunteerily throw money at Bose!
OK, I'll add a 3rd type: The ignorant, who just don't know any better, who believe the Bose marketing machine hype because they have no way of knowing the difference. People wait in line to voluntarily throw money at Bose just like people wait in line to throw money at countless other overpriced products that suck -- because of MARKETING. How can anyone here possibly not understand this incredibly obvious and simple concept?? I hear people say all the time, "Bose is the best, right"? Duh, of course it's not! They're the ignorant victims of amazing marketing!!

How many of those people for whom you think "Bose fills a niche" would still be so thrilled with their purchase if some kind soul enlightened them as to the incredibly low quality of the system they bought, compared to anything else in the same price range??? Are you actually so stupid that you think people enjoy being ripped off, enjoy throwing away thousands of hard-earned dollars on something worth a tiny fraction of that money?? C'mon man, that's just stupid.

If your main goal is to buy a nice looking little system that disappears into the room, is easy to use, but doesn't have to sound that great, buy ANY HTiB system for half the money and it'll pretty much outperform any Bose system. If on the other hand your goal is to get the best performing surround system available for a certain price range, it takes a bit more work and effort (and you might actually have to open an owner's manual or two, gasp), but I'm quite confident most people would rather know they got great quality for their money. For example, get the SVS 5.1 system for $1000, and that leaves you (in this case) $700 for a nice little receiver, a DVD player, speaker wires, interconnects and stands, and if you're thrifty you could still have $100 left over to pay someone, ANYone, to come hook it all up for you. Badda bing.

Don't know what other great "features" these magical systems are supposed to have that can't be purchased so easily in this price range, but what else do you need besides the above? Reminds me of AOL, who are now using their marketing machine to try and convince the ignorant general public that you NEED to spend $24/month to get the "protection" of AOL, "on top of your basic high speed connection," or you're screwed. They know they're losing customers to broadband and they're trying to survive so they throw in all these "exclusive features" that anyone with half a brain could figure out they can have cheaper buying them on their own or getting them free on the web.

Hah, AOL canceled broadband $50 in my area the week SBC started offering 3.0mbps DSL at $15/month.

Comcast still sells cable for $50/month... are they the equivalent of Bose customers?

Hah, AOL canceled broadband $50 in my area the week SBC started offering 3.0mbps DSL at $15/month.

Comcast still sells cable for $50/month... are they the equivalent of Bose customers?
Nah, not at all. Yeah I think Comcast cable is overpriced, no doubt, but cable is still (at least in my area) WAY faster than equivalent DSL. And I'm not sure what DSL pricing is like here in my area right now, haven't checked (maybe I should?), but last time I did check it was more expensive than cable. If in fact the broadband price wars light up and cable prices drop, I'll be thrilled of course. If DSL really is like $15/month (permanently, not just a 3-month promo price) and Comcast doesn't drop their prices? Well that's just stupid, because both companies advertise heavily and most people shopping for broadband have a clue that both options exist. Ya know?

The $15/month is a flat rate offered by SBC Yahoo! You still need a landline, so we're talking about closer to $25 a month.

Comcast gives you a nice $30/mo for 3 months before they unleash the full $50 on you.

There speakers are still amongst the smallest...not important for me , but essential for some.
Yes. they suck, but the tv sucks worse for sound.

I am still waiting for someone to reccomend a comporable system to their lifestyle system
here are the requirements:

VERY SMALL FORM FACTOR- both speakers and components

EASY REMOTE TO USE ALREADY PROGRAMMED TO WORK SYSTEM (RF SO AS TO FUNCTION FROM ZONE TWO)

HARD DRIVE MUSIC STORAGE SYSTEM

DVD PLAYER

MULTI ZONE CAPABILITY

---- OK, I've found set-ups that come close in every respect except component form factor (enough of a reason for WAF to put the kibosh on the alternatives)

Can anyone else assemble the same system, including wires and a simple set-up guide? Don't forget the programming costs.

This whole notion was posted twice on these forums by others, so it's not MY test, except that it comes up in my job all the time.

Wow, this thread has been revived from the dead in a big way!

One recommendation I'm still proud of is steering my parents (esp. my father) clear from Bose when they wanted to get a HTS for their living room. :cool:

IMO, a Bose HTS fills the niche for those who are brand snobs ("I got a Bose, what do you have?"), have lots of money to spend, don't want to do any research, want something that doesn't look dominating (e.g. no 15" subs and floorstanding speakers), and sounds a little better than the TV's stock speakers.

IMO, a Bose HTS fills the niche for those who are brand snobs ("I got a Bose, what do you have?"), have lots of money to spend, don't want to do any research, want something that doesn't look dominating (e.g. no 15" subs and floorstanding speakers), and sounds a little better than the TV's stock speakers.

Yep!

A.k.a. the Terminally Flaky. :rolleyes:

There speakers are still amongst the smallest...not important for me , but essential for some.
Yes. they suck, but the tv sucks worse for sound.

I am still waiting for someone to reccomend a comporable system to their lifestyle system
here are the requirements:

VERY SMALL FORM FACTOR- both speakers and components

EASY REMOTE TO USE ALREADY PROGRAMMED TO WORK SYSTEM (RF SO AS TO FUNCTION FROM ZONE TWO)

HARD DRIVE MUSIC STORAGE SYSTEM

DVD PLAYER

MULTI ZONE CAPABILITY

---- OK, I've found set-ups that come close in every respect except component form factor (enough of a reason for WAF to put the kibosh on the alternatives)

Can anyone else assemble the same system, including wires and a simple set-up guide? Don't forget the programming costs.

This whole notion was posted twice on these forums by others, so it's not MY test, except that it comes up in my job all the time.
Jake, almost every post I see of yours is argumentative, as if your hobby is coming in here and riling people up just to see if you can get a rise out of them.

I have some advice for you: Go buy a Bose system and enjoy it. :p

I think Bose has excellent marketing and ok speakers. They are fine for some people that don't care enough to find something better for the price. They are also fine for people that want something with a very small form factor. I personally will never buy Bose because I am not concerned with having satellites (I really hate satellites), and I know there are many other choices for the money. I don't hate Bose as a company, but it does bother me when friends or family become caught up in the hype.

There speakers are still amongst the smallest...not important for me , but essential for some.
Yes. they suck, but the tv sucks worse for sound.

I am still waiting for someone to reccomend a comporable system to their lifestyle system



Background music and the evening news is one thing, but put on something like War of the Worlds or Wellington's Victory and the limitations are obvious. The problem I have is that Bose tries to hide those limitations so that people don't realize the tradeoffs and end up spending money for a Lifestyle system thinking they are getting good sound. If what they really want is a Lifestyle system, fine. But Bose tries to make out that what they are getting is something with the lifestyle feature set plus great sound, and they aren't.

The problem I have is that Bose tries to hide those limitations so that people don't realize the tradeoffs and end up spending money for a Lifestyle system thinking they are getting good sound. If what they really want is a Lifestyle system, fine. But Bose tries to make out that what they are getting is something with the lifestyle feature set plus great sound, and they aren't.

Everyone who makes anything in audio claims it offers great sound. If people don't take the time to go out and comparatively audition, they either don't care, or as the saying goes "a fool and his money are soon parted".
Anyone who takes the time to find out if Blose "sounds" good in comparison to comporably priced gear, will find out the answer is NO. However, keeping in mind waf and the feature set (not the features we here believe important, but the ones many others do), I will ask again for people to assemble a system that has what I have listed ....They are a company offering a product, one which most of us here has little value in sound quality when compared to others, but with the general public , all those other features come into play, and purchasing without comparative demos (on-line...notice I'm not diferentiating between traditional or ID brands) is stupid even if taking the advice of the "enlightened".

Jake, almost every post I see of yours is argumentative

These are points for debate, I'm sorry if my perspective and opinions are differant from yours, but I believe I'm being polite and offering an alternative viewpoint for others.

AGAIN, bOSE SUCKS for sound Quality, better than your clock radio though.

Lets just sum this whole argument up by saying that yes bose speakers are good but not the best, and they are also very pricy for the quality you get. If you like the same type of sound I would go with something like a klipsch system which by the way are very cheap for the wattage and sound quality. (no i don't own only klipsch speakers, i own a set of bose, a set of klipsch, an old set of sonys, and some crappy altec lansing computer speakers). My best advice is if you have compared bose to many other speakers and you are prepared to shell out 1 or 2 thousand dollars to get yourself started (assuming you dont have a reciever or wires or A SURGE PROTECTOR).

There speakers are still amongst the smallest...not important for me , but essential for some.
Yes. they suck, but the tv sucks worse for sound.

I am still waiting for someone to reccomend a comporable system to their lifestyle system
here are the requirements:

VERY SMALL FORM FACTOR- both speakers and components

EASY REMOTE TO USE ALREADY PROGRAMMED TO WORK SYSTEM (RF SO AS TO FUNCTION FROM ZONE TWO)

HARD DRIVE MUSIC STORAGE SYSTEM

DVD PLAYER

MULTI ZONE CAPABILITY

---- OK, I've found set-ups that come close in every respect except component form factor (enough of a reason for WAF to put the kibosh on the alternatives)

Can anyone else assemble the same system, including wires and a simple set-up guide? Don't forget the programming costs.

This whole notion was posted twice on these forums by others, so it's not MY test, except that it comes up in my job all the time.


aaaaaaaaa best buy or a good audio store possibly radio shack to integrate it with the remote (yeah u need a remote with a screen)

Some people just want tiny speakers, thats all.

I'm so proud of myself. One of my friends just bought a 55" LCD HDTV and will get hi-def service in time for the Super Bowl. He told me about this today and I mentioned to him that he needs to get a 5.1 surround sound system to compliment the TV. So then he said, "That's true. How about a Bose system?" So then I let him have it. I think I convinced him to steer clear of Bose. :D So far, I recommended the SVS SBS-01 5.1 Set (http://www.svsound.com/products-sys-sbs.cfm) to him.

aaaaaaaaa best buy or a good audio store possibly radio shack to integrate it with the remote (yeah u need a remote with a screen)

I agree about the remote , but one with a screen , programmed, is @ $800 and what about the rest of the system?

So far, I recommended the SVS SBS-01 5.1 Set to him.

And , undoutedly a better sound he will get , but what if he were married, or gay, and the speakers had to be teenie and white?


a little
temporary safety ...

.....from your skyscraper falling, chemical weapons , or nukes....ok., you can look at the library books I've been checking out, and monitor my calls to Saudi Arabia.

Sorry, every time I see that quote, i cring thinking of a friend whose sister and her kids miss their father since 9/11

And , undoutedly a better sound he will get , but what if he were married, or gay, and the speakers had to be teenie and white?
Huh?? Gay people like teeny white speakers?? Wow that's news to me! :eek: I'm gay and unlike my men, I like my speakers large and black! LOL. :p

OK seriously, if I married someone then we got into buying speakers for our place and they insisted they be tiny and white and blend into the room, we'd have a problem on our hands. I don't mean to offend anyone here who loves to make his wife happy, but c'mon guys, it's your surround sound system! Put your foot down fer cryin out loud! Don't men have balls anymore?? It's all about compromise. Tell her ok we'll get something you want really badly that I don't care about, then I'm going to have REAL speakers to enjoy, because I want them and it's going to make me happy. My great friend and business partner (who's happily married for over 25 years and has B&W N802s in his living room along with DM604s for surrounds) has the right attitude (and apparently the right wife too). He makes sure the bills are paid and he tries to give his wife anything she wants (plus takes great care of his grandkids). Beyond that, he says if he can't spend his extra money on things he really wants like great speakers, what's the point of working! He says if he wants something he'll be damned if she's going to tell him he can't because she'd prefer not to have huge speakers in their living room. She has a great attitude too. She wants him to be happy and if he wants big speakers, she says whatever, it makes him happy. Simple.

Besides, everyone has their thing. If you're an audiophile or HT lover, why the hell did you marry someone who won't let you have speakers in your room??? :rolleyes:

And if you're the one who wants tiny speakers and that's your only goal -- for way less than Bose charges I'll make you some out of cardboard and Radio Shack drivers fer cryin out loud!!!! How much worse could they sound! (At least you had the good sense to come here and learn how utterly overpriced they are! Congratulations!) :D

Oh and almost forgot -- I have yet to meet a woman who actually LIKES the idea of spending WAY more money on something than it's worth, just so she can have eensy speakers to look at instead of bigger ones. Seriously, what kind of women are you guys dating?? Rich ones I guess. If she doesn't understand this -- "Honey, I'm buying speakers. Would you rather I spend $2000 or more on little nice looking junk that sound like crap, or how 'bout I save money and spend WAY less than that on really good sounding speakers that you can enjoy your favorite movies and music with, but they're going to be a little bigger and maybe not quite as pretty?" well then, you have my sympathies.

I'm SO sick of this discussion. (Yeah, I know, quit reading it, hehe.) The problem is, I hate seeing people get ripped off.

There are two types of people who defend Bose as a company:

1. Bose employees.
2. People whose egos are too huge to admit they made a huge mistake and got screwed after they find out what a horrible deal they got when they bought their Bose systems.

The Bose system might be perfect for you... If you're deaf and have a gun to your head forcing you to spend $1700 RIGHT NOW.

People do not bash Bose because it's the "thing to do." People bash Bose because they charge 5-10 times what their stuff is worth, and they use deceptive marketing practices. They're ROBBING people, and that's why they're somewhat unpopular. Pretty simple.

Well I'm neither of the 2 you mention above, so your theory fails already.

They're ROBBING people, and that's why they're somewhat unpopular. Pretty simple.

What world do you live in??? Are you completely clueless? How are they "somewhat unpopular"? They are loved by the general population. No, they aren't like by us because we are enthusiasts, or audiophiles or whatever.

But "they're somewhat unpopular"? Get a clue. Pretty simple.

Thanks Midfiman for being so kind and reasonable to explain the pros and cons of Bose LS38!!!!!
If I would like to spend around 2k, could you or any1 please help me w. some options of a better system. I use the system for 70% of Movie and 30% Music.
Some thing looks nice to please tha Wife. Thx again!!

Hi Tiger, glad to help. Again, I think alot depends on if you're constrained by limitations on equipment, size of speakers, lack of understanding of technical connections, specs, etc. Then I'd say the LS is good for you.

If you have no problem with putting together your own system, taking the time to shop for it, and don't mind having alot of equipment and larger speakers, the you can do better.

An example that would be a fine system would be pairing a receiver from Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, or Yamaha with speakers from Paradigm, B&W, Klipsch, Infinity, PSB, and various others. You can add a good sub for about $500.

Personally, I think if you spend like $400 - $500 on a receiver, $500 on a sub, that leaves you with about $800 - $900 for five speakers. The way I would do it would be to buy three good speakers first (center and fronts) and then spend money for surround when I have a few hundred more, but you can also get 5 speakers for $800 - $900 that I think will best the lifestyle cubes in sound quality.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Again, I'm not a fan of (or against) the LS systems, I just don't like people who bash them and can't respect that other people may like them for whatever reason it may be.

Good luck!

Oh and almost forgot -- I have yet to meet a woman who actually LIKES the idea of spending WAY more money on something than it's worth, just so she can have eensy speakers to look at instead of bigger ones. Seriously, what kind of women are you guys dating?? Rich ones I guess. If she doesn't understand this -- "Honey, I'm buying speakers. Would you rather I spend $2000 or more on little nice looking junk that sound like crap, or how 'bout I save money and spend WAY less than that on really good sounding speakers that you can enjoy your favorite movies and music with, but they're going to be a little bigger and maybe not quite as pretty?" well then, you have my sympathies.

You obviously don't have much experience with women.

OK, I'll add a 3rd type: The ignorant, who just don't know any better, who believe the Bose marketing machine hype because they have no way of knowing the difference. People wait in line to voluntarily throw money at Bose just like people wait in line to throw money at countless other overpriced products that suck -- because of MARKETING. How can anyone here possibly not understand this incredibly obvious and simple concept?? I hear people say all the time, "Bose is the best, right"? Duh, of course it's not! They're the ignorant victims of amazing marketing!!

How many of those people for whom you think "Bose fills a niche" would still be so thrilled with their purchase if some kind soul enlightened them as to the incredibly low quality of the system they bought, compared to anything else in the same price range??? Are you actually so stupid that you think people enjoy being ripped off, enjoy throwing away thousands of hard-earned dollars on something worth a tiny fraction of that money?? C'mon man, that's just stupid.

If your main goal is to buy a nice looking little system that disappears into the room, is easy to use, but doesn't have to sound that great, buy ANY HTiB system for half the money and it'll pretty much outperform any Bose system. If on the other hand your goal is to get the best performing surround system available for a certain price range, it takes a bit more work and effort (and you might actually have to open an owner's manual or two, gasp), but I'm quite confident most people would rather know they got great quality for their money. For example, get the SVS 5.1 system for $1000, and that leaves you (in this case) $700 for a nice little receiver, a DVD player, speaker wires, interconnects and stands, and if you're thrifty you could still have $100 left over to pay someone, ANYone, to come hook it all up for you. Badda bing.

Don't know what other great "features" these magical systems are supposed to have that can't be purchased so easily in this price range, but what else do you need besides the above? Reminds me of AOL, who are now using their marketing machine to try and convince the ignorant general public that you NEED to spend $24/month to get the "protection" of AOL, "on top of your basic high speed connection," or you're screwed. They know they're losing customers to broadband and they're trying to survive so they throw in all these "exclusive features" that anyone with half a brain could figure out they can have cheaper buying them on their own or getting them free on the web.

It really surprises me when I read something like this, I mean here you are calling all these people who buy Bose products ignorant, but you yourself are showing to be just as ignorant and with a healthy does of arrogance to go with it.
First off, Bose fills a niche very well for the non audiophile consumer. Audiophile consumers make up a very small part of the community that actually purchases audio equipment. Think about it. Go into most homes in middle America and tell me how many people own Paradigm speakers and Krell amps. Let's even take it a step down and look at a brand like Athena. Now you can find Athena speakers in a lot of big box stores, but I can't even think of one instance where I actually saw them in anyones home. What do I see? A variety of Polk (but not too often) JBL, White Van, and more times than not, Bose. Now as some of you know, I until recently (about 4 months) owned a Bose AM-10 system. Now I bought the system because I just didn't feel any of the other small speaker setups (which included a load of HTIAB) sounded as good. Also, I didn't feel $1000 for a 5.1 setup was a lot of money. Now, could I have bought a Dayton 12" sub and a set of Athena Micras for less money? Yes, I could have gone that route, but people don't want to build their own speakers really unless they have no choice. Also, with Bose there is a huge convince factor. It's very easy to find since they have it in a lot of stores like Target and Macys as well as Bose stores, it's easy to setup unlike my current system (it took me a good hour just to set up the sub), and really, it doesn't sound nearly as bad as what you are saying. You gave the SVS speaker system as an example. The SVS system comes with a PB-10 sub which is huge. The speakers when compared to the Bose arrays are also huge. A person who wants the small Bose look wouldn't buy such a system no matter how much better it sounds. You can't stick a PB-10 behind or under a couch as you can the Bose Bass module and the speakers are a lot more noticeable (and ugly). What you are failing to see is the convenience of getting all your audio needs in one package that is easy to use and hide, and focusing solely on the sound quality. And even as far as sound quality, it really is good. Not great, but good. I was thinking about my old Bose system as I watched Red Eye, last night, and I agree, my Def Tech system does sound better, but the speakers are much bigger also, so I can't really compare it to a Bose system. Now before I bought these speakers, I went to a high end store (where I bought the Def Techs) and a Mini Mag in a BB. I listened to all the sat systems. BA, Def Tech, Mirage, Paradigm, Polk, Athena, and some brands I never heard of in the high end store. After listening to them, I said to myself, "I better listen to some bigger speakers, because these sound a Hell of lot like my AM-10 system I already have." I came away thinking, "There is no magic bullet. Small speakers all sound a lot alike". I will say BA Micros were the best because they have a really good tweeter, but your statements are way off base. For you to say any HTIAB will out preform a Bose Lifestyle or AM system for half the money is just not true. There is no way they sound better. I don't even think the Paradigm speakers I heard sounded better (I actually thought they might even sound worse). And for you to even argue this in the way you have, why? Do you think you are doing us all some sort of service. Nobody who reads this forum does so to buy a Bose system. Rather the people who do buy Bose don't want to be bothered with research. They want to come home and turn on their system with it's one button, and not want to have an argument over where the tower should go because it sounds best here, but it looks best over there.

It really surprises me when I read something like this, I mean here you are calling all these people who buy Bose products ignorant, but you yourself are showing to be just as ignorant and with a healthy does of arrogance to go with it.
First off, Bose fills a niche very well for the non audiophile consumer. Audiophile consumers make up a very small part of the community that actually purchases audio equipment. Think about it. Go into most homes in middle America and tell me how many people own Paradigm speakers and Krell amps. Let's even take it a step down and look at a brand like Athena. Now you can find Athena speakers in a lot of big box stores, but I can't even think of one instance where I actually saw them in anyones home. What do I see? A variety of Polk (but not too often) JBL, White Van, and more times than not, Bose. Now as some of you know, I until recently (about 4 months) owned a Bose AM-10 system. Now I bought the system because I just didn't feel any of the other small speaker setups (which included a load of HTIAB) sounded as good. Also, I didn't feel $1000 for a 5.1 setup was a lot of money. Now, could I have bought a Dayton 12" sub and a set of Athena Micras for less money? Yes, I could have gone that route, but people don't want to build their own speakers really unless they have no choice. Also, with Bose there is a huge convince factor. It's very easy to find since they have it in a lot of stores like Target and Macys as well as Bose stores, it's easy to setup unlike my current system (it took me a good hour just to set up the sub), and really, it doesn't sound nearly as bad as what you are saying. You gave the SVS speaker system as an example. The SVS system comes with a PB-10 sub which is huge. The speakers when compared to the Bose arrays are also huge. A person who wants the small Bose look wouldn't buy such a system no matter how much better it sounds. You can't stick a PB-10 behind or under a couch as you can the Bose Bass module and the speakers are a lot more noticeable (and ugly). What you are failing to see is the convenience of getting all your audio needs in one package that is easy to use and hide, and focusing solely on the sound quality. And even as far as sound quality, it really is good. Not great, but good. I was thinking about my old Bose system as I watched Red Eye, last night, and I agree, my Def Tech system does sound better, but the speakers are much bigger also, so I can't really compare it to a Bose system. Now before I bought these speakers, I went to a high end store (where I bought the Def Techs) and a Mini Mag in a BB. I listened to all the sat systems. BA, Def Tech, Mirage, Paradigm, Polk, Athena, and some brands I never heard of in the high end store. After listening to them, I said to myself, "I better listen to some bigger speakers, because these sound a Hell of lot like my AM-10 system I already have." I came away thinking, "There is no magic bullet. Small speakers all sound a lot alike". I will say BA Micros were the best because they have a really good tweeter, but your statements are way off base. For you to say any HTIAB will out preform a Bose Lifestyle or AM system for half the money is just not true. There is no way they sound better. I don't even think the Paradigm speakers I heard sounded better (I actually thought they might even sound worse). And for you to even argue this in the way you have, why? Do you think you are doing us all some sort of service. Nobody who reads this forum does so to buy a Bose system. Rather the people who do buy Bose don't want to be bothered with research. They want to come home and turn on their system with it's one button, and not want to have an argument over where the tower should go because it sounds best here, but it looks best over there.

Those are mostly valid points but you overlook one very simple thing: bottom line is that most people who buy Bose are NOT aware that they are sacrificing sound quality for a compact form factor and ease of use.

I guess what rankles people like "einstenjb" and myself is the fact that most Bose consumers are, more or less, bamboozled by Bose's saturation marketing into believing that they are buying state of the art sound when in fact what they are getting is grossly overpriced mediocrity.

And I would have to disagree with you about cheaper HTIBs not sounding as good---I've heard under-$500 Onkyo, JBL and Sony HTIBs which sounded better than those Bose 3-2-1 and above HTIBs.

Those are mostly valid points but you overlook one very simple thing: bottom line is that most people who buy Bose are NOT aware that they are sacrificing sound quality for a compact form factor and ease of use.

I guess what rankles people like "einstenjb" and myself is the fact that most Bose consumers are, more or less, bamboozled by Bose's saturation marketing into believing that they are buying state of the art sound when in fact what they are getting is grossly overpriced mediocrity.

And I would have to disagree with you about cheaper HTIBs not sounding as good---I've heard under-$500 Onkyo, JBL and Sony HTIBs which sounded better than those Bose 3-2-1 and above HTIBs.

I think your points are also valid to an extent. I don't agree on the sound quality thing. I think most of the people who buy Bose are not looking for the be all , end all in sound quality, rather they are looking for something that fits into the home.
Also, you had me on the HTIB until you listed Sony.

Those are mostly valid points but you overlook one very simple thing: bottom line is that most people who buy Bose are NOT aware that they are sacrificing sound quality for a compact form factor and ease of use.

I guess what rankles people like "einstenjb" and myself is the fact that most Bose consumers are, more or less, bamboozled by Bose's saturation marketing into believing that they are buying state of the art sound when in fact what they are getting is grossly overpriced mediocrity.

And I would have to disagree with you about cheaper HTIBs not sounding as good---I've heard under-$500 Onkyo, JBL and Sony HTIBs which sounded better than those Bose 3-2-1 and above HTIBs.

First off, Lexa, really great post. Lots of good points IMO. Edster, I agree with you that the HTIB are better thn the 3-2-1s, no question in my mind. However, when I listen to an acoustimass 10 vs. other HTIBs, the HTIBs don't "Eh, blow the blose away", or "make the blose sound like the trash it is" or anything else ridiculous like what's been said on this site before.

The fact of the matter is, Bose is for the average consumer who wants surround sound in a simple setup. Because they are mainstream, they get picked on.

It's just so funny that people here have the audacity to repeatedly call Bose overpriced, etc, when there are dozens of speakers out there in excess of $10,000 that cost a fraction of that to make. I'm sorry, but people here call Bose speakers overpriced, ripoff, etc, yet there are people here who will spend $15,000 on a Krell amp.

Now tell me, let's say you can get the same performance as the Krell amp in a $5,000 Anthem Amp, using the "Bose is a ripoff theory", wouldn't the Krell amp in this case be considered a ripoff? (Just an example)

If anything, I commend Bose on it's "Bamboozle marketing campaign". They are not out to save the rain forests. They are out to turn a profit, and it's worked quite well for them for some time now.

They make speakers that non-audiophiles/enthusiasts are quite happy with, they provide excellent customer service, and it shows in repeated customer purchases. Just because people like us don't approve of the sound of their speakers doesn't make their business practice horrible.

So, since everyone picks on Bose, then:

Tiffany's must be evil because a diamond is just a commodity, so how dare they charge more for something you can get at countless other jewelers for much less? They make people believe you get more because of the blue box, and the quality. But guess what, you can get a GIA certified D-IF perfectly cut diamond countless other places for less if you look around.

Mercedes is evil, because for the price of their S500, you can get a better performing, better handling and more luxurious Audi A8, how dare they?!

Prada uses the same material as say, Kenneth Cole, but they can charge $500 a bag compared to $100 for the KC. Oh, the travesty!


People just have a tendency to pick on Bose, when in fact, you can find issues of companies ripping people off in Audio/Video right in your own home.

Let people enjoy their purchases, they are definately better off than us here, spending more time trying to perfect our system than actually enjoying them.

Also, you had me on the HTIB until you listed Sony.

ah you must not have heard their latest and greatest "DREAM" Systems! :D

Midifiman, you are so right on all counts. Well put.

A customer of mine just moved into a new house. While giving me the grand tour he showed off his new flat panel home theater with, you guessed it, a full blown Bose surround system. He also had multiple rooms done, as well as outdoor speakers. All this was controlled with a single remote, and I must admit, it all sounded pretty good. I didn't have the heart to tell him he could have done better with another brand, and what would be the point? He was thrilled with the sound, the speakers disappeared into his decor, and all he had to do was write a check. That's why Bose stays in business, to satisfy the casual, well heeled types, NOT to please audiophiles. Needless to say most here would not be pleased with his system, but we're not the target audience. And FWIW, I think Krell is way overpriced also, but very fine quality. But that's another story...

An example I like to use is from a friend of mine, He used to work in a certian field (which is not important) doing freelance stuff. After doing that for a few years and getting some big jobs occasionally he decided to bump up his asking price considerably (2-3x). He said after that he immediately got more work than he could handle. There is something about people automatically assuming more expensive is better. My friend is good at what he does but nothing changed except his rate.

First off, Lexa, really great post. Lots of good points IMO. Edster, I agree with you that the HTIB are better thn the 3-2-1s, no question in my mind. However, when I listen to an acoustimass 10 vs. other HTIBs, the HTIBs don't "Eh, blow the blose away", or "make the blose sound like the trash it is" or anything else ridiculous like what's been said on this site before.

The fact of the matter is, Bose is for the average consumer who wants surround sound in a simple setup. Because they are mainstream, they get picked on.

It's just so funny that people here have the audacity to repeatedly call Bose overpriced, etc, when there are dozens of speakers out there in excess of $10,000 that cost a fraction of that to make. I'm sorry, but people here call Bose speakers overpriced, ripoff, etc, yet there are people here who will spend $15,000 on a Krell amp.

Now tell me, let's say you can get the same performance as the Krell amp in a $5,000 Anthem Amp, using the "Bose is a ripoff theory", wouldn't the Krell amp in this case be considered a ripoff? (Just an example)

If anything, I commend Bose on it's "Bamboozle marketing campaign". They are not out to save the rain forests. They are out to turn a profit, and it's worked quite well for them for some time now.

They make speakers that non-audiophiles/enthusiasts are quite happy with, they provide excellent customer service, and it shows in repeated customer purchases. Just because people like us don't approve of the sound of their speakers doesn't make their business practice horrible.

So, since everyone picks on Bose, then:

Tiffany's must be evil because a diamond is just a commodity, so how dare they charge more for something you can get at countless other jewelers for much less? They make people believe you get more because of the blue box, and the quality. But guess what, you can get a GIA certified D-IF perfectly cut diamond countless other places for less if you look around.

Mercedes is evil, because for the price of their S500, you can get a better performing, better handling and more luxurious Audi A8, how dare they?!

Prada uses the same material as say, Kenneth Cole, but they can charge $500 a bag compared to $100 for the KC. Oh, the travesty!


People just have a tendency to pick on Bose, when in fact, you can find issues of companies ripping people off in Audio/Video right in your own home.

Let people enjoy their purchases, they are definately better off than us here, spending more time trying to perfect our system than actually enjoying them.

I agree there's been a lot of hyperbole flung around here, but most of that is probably just a reaction to the systematic hyperbole in all those Bose ads.

As for Krell, Mercedes, and those other high end brands you cited that also offer very dubious value for the money---they are all relatively tiny-niche products rather than industry-behemoths like Bose. Audio geeks love to bash Bose for the same reason that computer geeks like to bash Microsoft...because these are dubious-quality-for-the-price products that have come to dominate their respective industries, and because both companies have long histories of shady business practices.

BTW, pricewise Bose cannot be compared to Mercedes---if Bose were a car I'd call it a Ford Taurus that's marketed and priced as if it were a Lexus.

Before I started researching this hobby, I'll admit I too was originally looking into Bose or Bose-like speakers. After enough research and listening I realized I wanted larger speakers, something full-size bookshelf or towers. The wife requested something small that wasn't the large AR towers that I currently had.

The best thing I ever did to convince her of the importance of sound quality was to borrow a pair of cube speakers and hook them up to our stereo while my wife was watching Oprah. This was slightly deceptive as I didn't have a sub at the time and knew the speakers wouldn't play down low (they were spec'd down to 150Hz). She immediately saw how the sound quality would suffer as compared to full-range speakers.

Thus she let me decide in the end but requested bookshelf speakers rather than large towers. I found nice bookshelfs for me that worked with her furniture choices. The last couple of weeks I've been housing some Infinity Beta towers for a friend. She keeps asking when we can get rid of those huge things and is glad that she doesn't have to look at them for much longer. She fits into the heard, but not seen category.

I also have two brothers who do fit in some of these typical customer profiles that have been listed thus far. The first one bought Bose speakers probably 5 or 6 years ago, before I did my research. He heard they were supposed to be good. The wife wanted smaller speakers, he originally had some low end late 90's era Infinity towers. He bought the Bose AM-10 series and acknowledged they were good enough for him to enjoy the music and satisfy the wife. And it was a way to get into a surround system. He's been fairly happy with them since. He does realize there are better speakers for the money, but these still work and fit nicely into the decor. He's since heard better systems and knows you can do better for less money and get better sound with bigger speakers. He doesn't want to sacrifice the form for the function. When he does want to upgrade, I'll suggest smaller systems that still fit into his decor, but sound better. He is techy so a system built from separate components isn't an issue for him.

However, my other brother is not techy in the least bit. He bought the system as an upgrade in sound over his Bose 301's which he's been happy with. But most importantly he bought the Lifestyle 38 system out of convenience. Its easy for him to use and figure out, it looks nice and the sound is great. He hasn't listened to very many systems, so he did not have much to compare to. He heard the other brother's system and thought it sounded great. He was a previous owner of Bose and money wasn't an issue (best sound quality for the price). I listened to it after he got it setup and can see why he is happy with it. I did notice deficiencies as compared to my system, but did not point them out knowing that he is happy with his purchase and that my opinion would not change his mind about his purchase. He is what I would call the ideal customer Bose is looking for. He is also very representative of people who do not have an big interest in the hobby.

He has since learned of my large interest and asked me what components I have. When people ask me for suggestions I first try to get a feeling of what they are trying to achieve: convenience, sound quality, style, etc. I generally will steer them away noting that they can do better for the money and still keep their overall goals. However some are adamant about wanting Bose for reasons other than sound quality. I make them aware of the money issue and let them decide.

BTW, pricewise Bose cannot be compared to Mercedes---if Bose were a car I'd call it a Ford Taurus that's marketed and priced as if it were a Lexus.


Point definately, taken.

I guess what I was trying to say is, if you really want to, you can find many cases where the price the company charges vs. what the product gives back is not what it should be.

I just don't think Bose should be picked on as much as it is when there are so many people out there happy with their purchases.

BTW - you're correct about my examples being niche products, I guess I could have used a more mainstream example. The gentleman before me brought up microsoft, good example!

Those are mostly valid points but you overlook one very simple thing: bottom line is that most people who buy Bose are NOT aware that they are sacrificing sound quality for a compact form factor and ease of use.

Some do, some don't, some don't care.

I guess what rankles people like "einstenjb" and myself is the fact that most Bose consumers are, more or less, bamboozled by Bose's saturation marketing into believing that they are buying state of the art sound when in fact what they are getting is grossly overpriced mediocrity.

Why have sympathy for people who spend unwisely? People here buy without COMPARATIVELY auditioning all the time.

And I would have to disagree with you about cheaper HTIBs not sounding as good---I've heard under-$500 Onkyo, JBL and Sony HTIBs which sounded better than those Bose 3-2-1 and above HTIBs.

Frankly they are all pretty mediocre, and I doubt most of us take the time to establish much of a "pecking order" amongst that crap. Most Stand-alone satelitte speakers from other speaker companies are only a small step above that. They all sacrifice SQ for the visual asthetic.

No Highs, No Lows, Must be Bose. They have done a great job of marketing and price controls. Most customers I have dealt with, that like their Bose systems are not very knowledgeable about sound. Most people think they like that "soft" or "plush" sound not realizing they are losing frequencies to accomplish this. Bose just aims for that sweet spot and has no use for a full frequency speaker. If consumers know a little more about audio, they could get better sound at less or even the same money as Bose.

It's not always just about better sound. I used to drive a primer red "sleeper" '76 Chevy Vega with a 350 V-8 ALL JUICED UP, but aside from a modified hood (just a little bump) , it looked like a cr@ppy little car with big tires and a large differential, but it bitch slapped a whole lot of pimped-out rides making guys cry in front of their girlfriends.

I care about SQ first, but others have differant priorities, simplicity and design are their concern. I sell a lot of installs where the speaker is in the wallboard.

I think your points are also valid to an extent. I don't agree on the sound quality thing. I think most of the people who buy Bose are not looking for the be all , end all in sound quality, rather they are looking for something that fits into the home.
Also, you had me on the HTIB until you listed Sony.
Honestly, many people who think they're spending good money on a quality system and get Bose don't realize that there are alternatives in that price range (or even less) that look just as good and sound much better than Bose. For example, my father and my friend (whom I justmentioned last night a post ago) didn't know there were alternative to Bose for "high-end" speakers that are relatively small and attractive. (To them, spending $1k for speakers is considered high end, even though we know that one can spend tens of thousands of $ for truly high end.)

I agree w/ the Sony comment. LOL

if Bose were a car I'd call it a Ford Taurus that's marketed and priced as if it were a Lexus.

And here I thought a Lexus was a Taurus that's marketed as if it were a Mercedes.


Honestly, many people who think they're spending good money on a quality system and get Bose don't realize that there are alternatives in that price range (or even less) that look just as good and sound much better than Bose.

Do the right thing and protect them from their ignorance. For many, however, you can't pull the bull out of their eyes.

Well I'm neither of the 2 you mention above, so your theory fails already.
I probably should have mentioned that those in category 2 ("People whose egos are too huge to admit they made a huge mistake and got screwed after they find out what a horrible deal they got when they bought their Bose systems.") NEVER admit it... due to their aforementioned huge egos. :rolleyes:

What world do you live in??? Are you completely clueless? How are they "somewhat unpopular"? They are loved by the general population. No, they aren't like by us because we are enthusiasts, or audiophiles or whatever.

But "they're somewhat unpopular"? Get a clue. Pretty simple.
No no no, my rude and misguided little friend. You couldn't be more wrong on this one. First of all, my use of the term "somewhat unpopular" in this context is called "sarcasm" and "irony." (In other words, I was being facetious. Look it up.) When I said "around here," I meant on this forum -- where Bose products are generally despised (thus the irony).

Furthermore, Bose products are absolutely NOT "loved by the general population." Where ever did you get that silly idea?? The general population (i.e., people who do not own any Bose products) has been, as Edster so eloquently put it, bamboozled by Bose's extremely effective saturation marketing into THINKING Bose products are "the best." There's a BIG difference. Go spend hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising something, many times more than any of your competition, and I guarantee the general public will think your products are "the best" too, whether they are or not.

Then (I guess I ruffled your feathers?), you had the balls to post this abrasive and ridiculous comment:
You obviously don't have much experience with women.
That's not only incredibly rude, but also incredibly stupid. You obviously don't have much experience READING, as you apparently missed the part where I said I was GAY. Duh. :rolleyes: I know plenty of women, and although the majority of them could care less about quality sound and would prefer not to have big speakers in their living rooms, almost all of them LOVE saving money and HATE wasting it on something that's massively overpriced. Also, both the men and women I know who are in a HAPPY marriage actually enjoy making their partners happy when possible, which includes indulging their favorite hobbies. If a guy's passionate about audio, I would hope his wife would cut him a little slack and let him have the speakers he wants in at least one room of the house. If not, the man has my sympathies. (Besides, there are plenty of really nice looking and great sounding speaker options available for Bose prices or less that would blend nicely into any decor, if you look around enough.)

Bottom line is, you sir are a waste of my time and I'm done arguing with you since you're clearly not getting the point (and that's fine with me). Plus you stated that you have no problem with companies that employ deceptive marketing tactics and unsavory business practices, so I can't respect you and don't care what you think of me. I do have a problem with those kinds of companies.

As for those who continue harping over and over again that Bose customers aren't looking for the best sound quality, they're looking for small, easy to use speaker solutions, you're also missing an important point that several of us have tried to make over and over again -- that these people just don't know any better, and that many of these people would NOT choose Bose if they simply had the good luck to have someone enlighten them about the low quality/price ratio of the products, and the fact that there are plenty of other better value options out there. You like to act like these people have all the facts, that they know there are better values but they choose Bose because of the form factor, ease of use, etc... But that's just not true in the majority of cases. As has been stated repeatedly here, your "general public" thinks Bose is awesome and features state of the art sound quality, because of their mighty marketing machine -- and their high prices simply re-affirm that misconception in people's minds. Hey if it's expensive and I see it advertised all the time, it must be the best! :rolleyes:

I'm sure there are a very few educated people who know the facts yet choose Bose products anyway for whatever reasons, and that's fine. But there's no doubt, that's a very small minority of Bose customers, and for the rest, you're just making a lame rationalization, and I think it's sad.

Having said all that... If you happen to own Bose products, you know the facts, yet you enjoy your Bose system anyway -- then they're right for you, and that's absolutely fine. I'm not trying to insult anyone with my comments. I just want people to have the FACTS before they make a purchase they might later regret. Most of us are here to learn about audio, and I have great respect for the many good people here who take the time to share their knowledge with others and help newbies get good information so they can make informed purchases and spend their time enjoying their systems rather than getting headaches and wondering where they went wrong.

Of course there's always a few who just want to argue and be difficult. Luckily they seem to be a minority.

I probably should have mentioned that those in category 2 ("People whose egos are too huge to admit they made a huge mistake and got screwed after they find out what a horrible deal they got when they bought their Bose systems.") NEVER admit it... due to their aforementioned huge egos. :rolleyes:

Lol, fantastic defense, you don't have anything substantial to say, so you MUST know what I own and have owned in the past! Haha!


QUOTE=einsteinjb]
Furthermore, Bose products are absolutely NOT "loved by the general population." Where ever did you get that silly idea?? The general population (i.e., people who do not own any Bose products) has been, as Edster so eloquently put it, bamboozled by Bose's extremely effective saturation marketing into THINKING Bose products are "the best." There's a BIG difference. Go spend hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising something, many times more than any of your competition, and I guarantee the general public will think your products are "the best" too, whether they are or not. [/QUOTE]

Um, wrong again, the general population, i.e. meaning people who are into audio (I thought you were smart enough to figure that out, but obviously not), even just a little, consider Bose to be something to look up to. No one here does, but we are not a good sample of the "general population".




That's not only incredibly rude, but also incredibly stupid. You obviously don't have much experience READING, as you apparently missed the part where I said I was GAY.

Lol, I'll just leave this one alone.



Bottom line is, you sir are a waste of my time and I'm done arguing with you since you're clearly not getting the point (and that's fine with me). Plus you stated that you have no problem with companies that employ deceptive marketing tactics and unsavory business practices, so I can't respect you and don't care what you think of me.

Don't cry, get over it. It's business. You cared enough to respond, lol.

The funny part is you state the second group of people have such large egos, yet your ego is so big, that you can't respect people who bought their Bose systems and are happy with them.

People here don't try to educate others about not buying a Bose system, or at least looking at alternatives, they just have the "Bose sucks, don't buy it", etc rhetoric and shove it down other people's throats.

Honestly, many people who think they're spending good money on a quality system and get Bose don't realize that there are alternatives in that price range (or even less) that look just as good and sound much better than Bose.

I agree with the sound part, but what about the size/looks part? That's what I would imagine most people would get hung up on. The LS systems may not be high end, but I can imagine why someone would like them for their looks. I know that's not important to us here, but I'm not getting into that.

No Highs, No Lows, Must be Bose. They have done a great job of marketing and price controls. Most customers I have dealt with, that like their Bose systems are not very knowledgeable about sound. Most people think they like that "soft" or "plush" sound not realizing they are losing frequencies to accomplish this. Bose just aims for that sweet spot and has no use for a full frequency speaker. If consumers know a little more about audio, they could get better sound at less or even the same money as Bose.

After reading once again about the freq. hole that is apparent in Bose sat systems, I always wondered how a similar system such as HSU ventrilloquist gets around this and why nobody challenges them on it. I saw they claim that the center fills in the gap, but if there is a gap in the HSU sats, and it is only filled by the C, wouldn't that give you an uneven soundstage?

It's not always just about better sound. I used to drive a primer red "sleeper" '76 Chevy Vega with a 350 V-8 ALL JUICED UP, but aside from a modified hood (just a little bump) , it looked like a cr@ppy little car with big tires and a large differential, but it bitch slapped a whole lot of pimped-out rides making guys cry in front of their girlfriends.

wow I would've liked to see THAT. Back in the 70s my dad had a Vega in fact, so I still remember how unsightly it was but it certainly was not souped up like yours. Then a few years later he bought a fugly Plymouth Duster which made the Vega look beautiful, LOL.

[/QUOTE] I care about SQ first, but others have differant priorities, simplicity and design are their concern. I sell a lot of installs where the speaker is in the wallboard.[/QUOTE]

Still not sure that most Bose consumers KNOW they're getting a trade-off on SQ rather than simply being deluded into thinking they're getting the be-all end-all cutting-edge audio perfection claimed in all the Bose ads.

Would be interesting if someone (Gallup?) did a survey of Bose customers for us, that would finally settle this thread...

Honestly, many people who think they're spending good money on a quality system and get Bose don't realize that there are alternatives in that price range (or even less) that look just as good and sound much better than Bose. For example, my father and my friend (whom I justmentioned last night a post ago) didn't know there were alternative to Bose for "high-end" speakers that are relatively small and attractive. (To them, spending $1k for speakers is considered high end, even though we know that one can spend tens of thousands of $ for truly high end.)

I agree w/ the Sony comment. LOL

A very valid point. Athena Micras, BA Micros, Def Tech ProCinema, and to an extent, Mirage omnisats are all good alternitives to Bose (Omnisats would cost much more to do in a 5.1 system than Bose), but the thing is you need to do research to find these brands. I would guess a lot of Bose sales come from places where they don't carry such brands. Part of my point was, people who buy Bose don't have the time or care to research this hobby. They sound good enough.

After reading once again about the freq. hole that is apparent in Bose sat systems, I always wondered how a similar system such as HSU ventrilloquist gets around this and why nobody challenges them on it. I saw they claim that the center fills in the gap, but if there is a gap in the HSU sats, and it is only filled by the C, wouldn't that give you an uneven soundstage?

Haven't heard the Ventriloquist myself but usually read that it is very decent for a sat system and since people usually buy it packaged with a Hsu subwoofer we know it definitely has decent lows as compared to the ridiculous Bose "bass module" and it probably does have decent highs since most sat systems only do that ok. So right there I would expect it to be a significant improvement over the Bose though of course still no competition for bookshelves.

I personally don't find the Bose sats nearly as annoying to my ears as the Bose "bass module."

And here I thought a Lexus was a Taurus that's marketed as if it were a Mercedes.







Actually, it's a Toyota. But I will say, Lexus does make a nice car when you get to the high end part of the line.

And here I thought a Lexus was a Taurus that's marketed as if it were a Mercedes.




Do the right thing and protect them from their ignorance. For many, however, you can't pull the bull out of their eyes.


Actually if I had to choose between the two I'd buy a Lexus over a Mercedes any day.

Your second point is all too true though.

Haven't heard the Ventriloquist myself but usually read that it is very decent for a sat system and since people usually buy it packaged with a Hsu subwoofer we know it definitely has decent lows as compared to the ridiculous Bose "bass module" and it probably does have decent highs since most sat systems only do that ok. So right there I would expect it to be a significant improvement over the Bose though of course still no competition for bookshelves.

I personally don't find the Bose sats nearly as annoying to my ears as the Bose "bass module."

edster, I think you just hit it on the head. I went from a Bose bass module to a Def Tech Supercube II (please, spare me the inflated Def Tech specs comments). That is the biggest difference you will hear between a Bose system and a system that has a sub that does not roll off at 40 hz. Like I said before, I found little to no difference in Sat systems from BA, Def Tech, Paradigm, and Polk when compared to an Accostimass system with the small subs that they recommend for them.

that many of these people would NOT choose Bose if they simply had the good luck to have someone enlighten them about the low quality/price ratio of the products, and the fact that there are plenty of other better value options out there.

The huge complaint from people in the industry is that try as the saleman might (and believe me many try HARD) customers don't care though some would consider the sound quality aspect IF EVERYTHING ELSE WERE EQUAL which it usually isn't ,size particularly (but ease of hook-up and use on the systems). There usual feeling IS that it's good enough. Why deny that these people are the majority , not stupid, just concerned with differant priorities or they don't really care? Why insist that many of the other satelitte systems are seriously flawed as well? Why try to convince people here that , just because you and I don't have to tolerate petty and self-concerned women (you certainly not), that there aren't literally millions of them out there and many pussies are married to them? Why try to say there aren't gay interior designers that don't allow anything else?

You like to act like these people have all the facts, that they know there are better values but they choose Bose because of the form factor, ease of use, etc... But that's just not true in the majority of cases.

I think there are many reasons why they choose them, and while I have worked previously selling them, it turned my stomach , and I [I]always tried to feel out the customer to see if they were open to alternatives, but for the reasons we talked about, they often weren't.

Jake, the difference between you and other poster is, that while you're aware of people making a bad choice in some cases when going with Bose, you still respect it. Though, I bet you were still willing to offer your advice to people in a thoughtful, intelligent manner.

No decent salesman tells people they are idiots for buying something, You ask probing questions to see how receptive to alternatives they might be, and if there is anything that may fit their needs better. Believe me, top of the line sound is NOT as high a priority for many as other considerations.
To show another example, I have had customers in the past who bought very good speakers to place in multiple rooms with no good sources (such as XM or ESCIENT) or NO good control system such as Russound , Speakercraft, amx, or Crestron. The result is a great sounding system that the wife and kids don't appreciate because it isn't easy to use. The five discs in the cd changer get stale in two days and don't get replaced for two weeks , so everybody turns the volume control down in all the rooms. No one knows what radio station they're choosing without going into the main room so they turn it off. There are too many lousy discs in the 400 disc changer and you don't know what your getting. Too many lousy songs on the decent discs. All this means is that the wife is frustrated, the kids are apothetic, and the really nice speakers don't get used enough. The Bose at least is easy for many to use.

I agree with the sound part, but what about the size/looks part? That's what I would imagine most people would get hung up on. The LS systems may not be high end, but I can imagine why someone would like them for their looks. I know that's not important to us here, but I'm not getting into that.
When I first convinced my father to seek elsewhere besides Bose, he asked me, "like what?" He (I guess "we" when I used to live at home as a kid) had a 2.0 speaker system consisting of Technics floorstanding speakers. He thought the only alternatives were either other floorstanding speakers or the cute Bose satellites.

I did a little research and then told him of an Infinity sat+sub system (I don't remember the model # off the top of my head since it was a couple years ago). We then went to CC/BB to audition them and he was surprised at the number of choices that were available for cute satellite (+subwoofer) speaker systems.

So my siblings and I wound up getting him and my mother an Athena system for X-mas a couple years ago. Their Athena speakers consist of relativley large satellites (yet smaller than bookshelf speakers) that, I admit are larger than Bose cubes, but look just as attractive and sound much better. And the 10" sub is way more powerful than the Bass module. (Unfortunately, my parents aren't into bass, so they only keep the sub's volume halfway up. :( I of course crank it up whenever I visit them, much to their chagrin. :))

Also, lexa695 mentioned some other good satellite systems that look as good as Bose, or at least close to it. And I imagine sound quite a bit better than Bose.

A very valid point. Athena Micras, BA Micros, Def Tech ProCinema, and to an extent, Mirage omnisats are all good alternitives to Bose (Omnisats would cost much more to do in a 5.1 system than Bose), but the thing is you need to do research to find these brands. I would guess a lot of Bose sales come from places where they don't carry such brands. Part of my point was, people who buy Bose don't have the time or care to research this hobby. They sound good enough.
Thanks for mentioning some good alternative "cute" speaker systems.

Actually just heard this at a friend's beach-house yesterday and was surprised at how NOT TERRIBLE it sounded for a lousy $150:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009O5MWI/ref=dp_nav_0/103-3152032-3370267?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=172282&s=electronics&v=glance

In fact I would have to say that it definitely sounds better than the Bose 3-2-1 system, especially the tiny subwoofer.

Actually just heard this at a friend's beach-house yesterday and was surprised at how NOT TERRIBLE it sounded for a lousy $150:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009O5MWI/ref=dp_nav_0/103-3152032-3370267?%5Fencoding=UTF8&n=172282&s=electronics&v=glance

In fact I would have to say that it definitely sounds better than the Bose 3-2-1 system, especially the tiny subwoofer.


I don't think it's fair to compare a 3-2-1 system which is a 3.1 configuration to any 5.1 system, no matter who makes it or how much less it costs. Someone who buys this phillips system has different goals than someone who buys a 3-2-1, and niether customer (5.1 or 3.1) would look at the other comapritively since the 3-2-1- obviously does not care about surround speakers.

thing is....... Bose gives up all rights to be compared to anything not in the same catagory as their own product, by putting themselves in a price catagory they shouldnt be in.

thing is....... Bose gives up all rights to be compared to anything not in the same catagory as their own product, by putting themselves in a price catagory they shouldnt be in.

Not all together true really. Boston Micros are comparable in every way. They just don't really sound that much better because the sub they come with blows.

So I'm talking to the neighbor while walking around the block and he says "I heard you're putting together a home theater."

I replied "Yes, I am"

His immediate response was "Are you going to get Bose Speakers?"

For some reason I wasn't ready for this question and instead of politely saying no, I said "No way, Bose is junk! You can't even hear them in a store against competitive brands and they don't allow magazines to review them any more. They design their speakers based on the preference of human hearing, not accuracy." (which is true, BTW)

He got real quiet and I said "No offense intended if you own Bose."

Luckily for me, he didn't.

...BTW, pricewise Bose cannot be compared to Mercedes---if Bose were a car I'd call it a Ford Taurus that's marketed and priced as if it were a Lexus.

You mean, a Lincoln.

I don't know why you folks keep knocking Bose sound systems. Why just the other day I was able to sell my System 15 for a couple of twelve packs of beer! :cool:

And here I thought a Lexus was a Taurus that's marketed as if it were a Mercedes.

It's really amazing this thread won't just go away.

So I'm talking to the neighbor while walking around the block and he says "I heard you're putting together a home theater."

I replied "Yes, I am"

His immediate response was "Are you going to get Bose Speakers?"

For some reason I wasn't ready for this question and instead of politely saying no, I said "No way, Bose is junk! You can't even hear them in a store against competitive brands and they don't allow magazines to review them any more. They design their speakers based on the preference of human hearing, not accuracy." (which is true, BTW)

He got real quiet and I said "No offense intended if you own Bose."

Luckily for me, he didn't.

I can't tell you how many times I've done this. It's always met with, "Bose are the best aren't they?" When I explain why they are junk, people seem to just dismiss what you are saying. I just don't understand how Bose has deceived the public into thinking they are a high end speaker. Tweeter is the only place that I've ever seen that had the Bose in the same room with medium to higher end speakers. I always suggest that people go there to listen to them. It's an amazing eye opener when they are able to listen side by side with other brands costing 1/3 the price and the cheaper speakers just blow them away.

On a related note, I recently bought DJ-style headphones. I mentioned it to my friends. One of them asked, "Is it as good as Bose?" I simply said, "Bose's headphoens are not even in the same league as the headphones I got". :D

You mean, a Lincoln.

No, a Lexus. That's actually a very good car. A Lincoln pretends to be a good car too but it's just another Detroit POS, though of course better than a Taurus. I've known 3 Lincoln owners (2 Navigators, 1 Town Car) and they've had nothing but trouble with the darn things.

Well, since I'm fairly new to the forums, I guess I should chime in on Bose.

I know virtually nothing about speakers, other than that which sounds good to my ear. My parents bought me a pair of Bose speakers about 10 years ago (they said for about $200). I've gotta admit, they've sounded pretty good all this time. I can't really say how they would have compared to other $200/pair speakers, since I didn't get to pick them.

I did, on my own, buy the Companion 3 system for my PC. I went to Best Buy to listen to a few sets...but I didn't want the surround sound computer speakers for my research library. Occasionally I game in my office (rare), but mainly listen to some tunes while I work, grade papers, etc. I can't complain about them, sound great to me, have decent bass and, as far as I can tell, accurate sound with music. Many of the gaming speakers just didn't look too professional for the office, so I went with the Bose (BTW, before I read AVS).

In fact, I liked them so much, that I bought a set of Companion 2 speakers for my laptop. Figured they sounded decent, beat the hell out of my laptop tweeters (or whatever the hell these things are), and are easy to take along with me.

Long story short, I WILL NOT be purchasing Bose for my HT needs. Sounds like by going with Ascends (for my new HP6580n) I will get MUCH better sound and even more bang for the buck.

I can't bash Bose, as what I need them for, they sound good enough to me. But for serious HT needs, I will be steering clear of them.

JMHO

BTW - Bud does indeed suck. That is all.

It's really amazing this thread won't just go away.
Said that many times myself. Seems each time a "postive review search " (remember that one?) ends up here, it starts again!!

Why not bose...

Because I would never try to sell you a Kia Rio at a BMW M3s price/performance...and tell you it's the best thing you've ever driven.

That's why not Bose.

..but if you like Bose...I'll sell you the car to go along with it! ;) :p

Funny enough my $55k Audi S4 came with a Blows speaker system. 10 speakers and let me tell you, the pain is ten times as much. Stay away from Blows. And god help Audi for bring this pain to my otherwise awe-inspiring sports car. I heard that B&O is in the A8. What up with that Audi?

Funny enough my $55k Audi S4 came with a Blows speaker system. 10 speakers and let me tell you, the pain is ten times as much. Stay away from Blows. And god help Audi for bring this pain to my otherwise awe-inspiring sports car. I heard that B&O is in the A8. What up with that Audi?

Bose doesn't actually make the car equiptment. My Bose system in my Maxima had Clarion labels on every piece with exception of the amp and subpooper, I mean subwoofer:)

No, a Lexus. That's actually a very good car. A Lincoln pretends to be a good car too but it's just another Detroit POS, though of course better than a Taurus. I've known 3 Lincoln owners (2 Navigators, 1 Town Car) and they've had nothing but trouble with the darn things.

Tack on one Aviator owner :(

Tweeter is the only place that I've ever seen that had the Bose in the same room with medium to higher end speakers. I always suggest that people go there to listen to them. It's an amazing eye opener when they are able to listen side by side with other brands

When I worked there, we would do this from time to time until one of the corporate pigs would get a phone call from a Bose rep (or spy) and out they'd come again to their own little corner. It's an amazing eye opener when people are able to listen to ANY brands side by side with their respective compition.

Long story short, I WILL NOT be purchasing Bose for my HT needs. Sounds like by going with Ascends (for my new HP6580n) I will get MUCH better sound and even more bang for the buck

If you don't do some side by side comparisons with other comporable product, you are falling victim to marketing hype as much as Bose buyers are. I'm confident you would be better off with the ASCENDS, but you need to be sure they are the best of what is available to you, you owe it to yourself. There are many ways of doing this.

If you don't do some side by side comparisons with other comporable product, you are falling victim to marketing hype as much as Bose buyers are.

I've always found this difficult to do at a store. Their setups are so cluttered, speakers are different distances from you (affecting imaging, perceived efficiency) and the rooms are seldom acoustically treated.

My suggestion, though far more time consuming, is take two pairs of speakers home (or better yet, a dedicated showroom) at a time. Listen to them (after break in period) and declare a winner. Then get another pair and do the same.

Don't do A/B comparisons during soundtracks. Why? More efficient speakers are going to be louder (they are easier to drive) and will be perceived as sounding better (it is a sad fact, but the human brain perceives a louder sound as sounding better). To properly listen to a speaker, bring in an album and listen to at least 30 minutes on one speaker, than do the same with the other brand. Spending a lot of time is extremely important, that big deep bass (that is artificially designed into some speakers) may sound great for 5 to 15 minutes (just enough time to nail down the sale), but you will grow tired of it over extended listening periods.

I remember listening to a pair of Tannoy Definitions a couple years back and thought, that's a very laid back presentation - where as the Monitor Golds were far more in my face. At first I though those Monitors were the best, and maybe if 90% of my purpose was to just watch movies, they would be better, but I never tired of hearing those Tannoys carry a solo instrument or an entire hard rock album. (Of course I couldn't afford either speaker at the time, but my cousin who owned the place didn't mind me listening).

Whatever the final outcome - good luck and listen carefully.

--SimpleTheater

I've always found this difficult to do at a store. Their setups are so cluttered, speakers are different distances from you (affecting imaging, perceived efficiency) and the rooms are seldom acoustically treated.

Go to better stores, or demand that the other ones dedicate some time and effort into being able to provide their most valuable service for speakers, the opportunity to compare speakers in Decent rooms, that is, rooms that have no huge, troubling acoustic characteristics. If you're own room has such troubling characteristics , it may not be the best place to audition either and many don't go to the expense (initial outlay of time and money) to adequately set-up and compare multiple brands in their own home. I would add that the majority of people here know that the vast majority of people who audition in their own home are simply going to have nothing there for adequate comparison, and they likely will be convinced that their new speakers are "God's gift to music reproduction" (after all, sooo many others have said so).

My suggestion, though far more time consuming, is take two pairs of speakers home (or better yet, a dedicated showroom) at a time. Listen to them (after break in period) and declare a winner. Then get another pair and do the same.

If your room is decent, that's a good plan, and hope that more people take the time to do this, many times.

Funny enough my $55k Audi S4 came with a Blows speaker system. 10 speakers and let me tell you, the pain is ten times as much. Stay away from Blows. And god help Audi for bring this pain to my otherwise awe-inspiring sports car. I heard that B&O is in the A8. What up with that Audi?

FWIW, my 2005 Audi A8L has "Bose" logo on all its speakers.

lol I was in futureshop the otherday buying my E 30s. I was messing around with other speakers while I was waiting for someone to come give me service. (took 45 minutes) There was this tiny little bose centre channel with like 2 2.5" drivers I think it was, and they wanted like 350 bucks or something outragous for it. Then I looked at the bookshelves (301s i think) cause I read the specs and they had 8" drivers and often bookshelves dont have 8" I took the grill off ( I was quite surprised it even comes off, bose doesn't want people looking inside) there was a pretty sweet 8" paper cone in there. The thing looked like a toy. I don't see how anyone could wanna buy those, espcecially with better ( sound, and visually) speakers right there, I left the grill off so all could see the glory of bose as they passed by. I mean, you don't even need to listen to that speaker to know it's gonna suck. Come on, paper driver???? who does that?



wow, just looking at futureshop site now...
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0770HDS0010048984&catid=19701&logon=&langid=EN

Who in their right mind would pay this???? it's worth about $150. HOLY !!! :eek:

I have heard good sounding paper drivers. The 301's sound significantly better then the cubes. Still overpriced, but much better.

nothing compared to my jbls, which cost 150 less

They are a great example of people liking whatever they buy when they don't do extensive comparisons. This is a self replicating , insidious syndrome. People will like anything that sounds better than the last P.O.S. they had.

wow, just looking at futureshop site now...
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/proddetail.asp?sku_id=0770HDS0010048984&catid=19701&logon=&langid=EN

Who in their right mind would pay this???? it's worth about $150. HOLY !!! :eek:

Thanks so much for the laugh. I went to the site and read this interesting description:
"ADAPTiQ audio calibration system: Adjusts sound for your room's unique acoustics, speaker placement and listening locations so your Lifestyle system can deliver a quality Bose performance"

Now to the layman, he's thinking that's wonderful. To the trained lawyer, a "quality Bose performance" means they didn't actually say "a quality performance", but something different. And you can't sue them, because they NEVER said they'd give you a quality performance, but a BOSE quality performance.

Its subtle, but it makes it nice and legal.

--SimpleTheater

Funny enough my $55k Audi S4 came with a Blows speaker system. 10 speakers and let me tell you, the pain is ten times as much. Stay away from Blows. And god help Audi for bring this pain to my otherwise awe-inspiring sports car. I heard that B&O is in the A8. What up with that Audi?
My buddies 2000 NSX came with a stock Bose system. Junk.

I just replaced my 2 front speakers (which were orignally Bose speakers, no idea on the model, they have to be at LEAST 10-15 years old) I took off the grill, and it has 1 small speaker (mabye 4 or 5 1/4 inches) and 2 tubes, on the back the speaker comes to a point where the tubes come out. my orignal idea was to sawzall into this speaker (because it is mounted in the wall and place my new athena inside it, so I could simply place the grill on, and it would look clean.
well after sawing a hole in the front (whcih was sort of fun to saw through this pretty big bose speaker (about 22 inches by 12 inches, pretty damn big for a bose) well after this I can't get it to come out, so I go to the back, and take off the grill there are 8 MORE speakers (teh same eize as the front part) I was shocked, like, what the HELL is this, 8 speakers that face AWAY from you? and 1 speaker that faces you? I was pretty confuised, well I had to take the bose speakers out of the wall and need to built a "trim" for the athena. any idea what bose speakers they were? (just curious)

-Nick

901's?

901's?

If so he just created $500 speaker mounts. Well used 901s often sell for about $500.

FWIW, my 2005 Audi A8L has "Bose" logo on all its speakers.

I think that's because its in the 2006, I'm not sure though. The A8L 4.2 is a sweet car. How do you like it? Do you realize that your engine with slight modifications is what's in the S4? I have no idea how Audi did that. We have one hulkin beast under that hood.

well the one I sawzalled into was completly blown. (hence why I wasn't using them) but I actually had a pair of them, (the 2nd one I didn't touch and I BELIEVE it still works) any idea where I can find a picture of old bose equipment? and if I can find out if it's worth anything?

-Nick

If so he just created $500 speaker mounts. Well used 901s often sell for about $500.

There speakers are still amongst the smallest...not important for me , but essential for some.
Yes. they suck, but the tv sucks worse for sound.

I am still waiting for someone to reccomend a comporable system to their lifestyle system
here are the requirements:

VERY SMALL FORM FACTOR- both speakers and components

EASY REMOTE TO USE ALREADY PROGRAMMED TO WORK SYSTEM (RF SO AS TO FUNCTION FROM ZONE TWO)

HARD DRIVE MUSIC STORAGE SYSTEM

DVD PLAYER

MULTI ZONE CAPABILITY

---- OK, I've found set-ups that come close in every respect except component form factor (enough of a reason for WAF to put the kibosh on the alternatives)

Can anyone else assemble the same system, including wires and a simple set-up guide? Don't forget the programming costs.

This whole notion was posted twice on these forums by others, so it's not MY test, except that it comes up in my job all the time.


buy a PC with an audigy x-fi, an ATI all in wonder, dvd etc... You already have more features than that bose and you can get al that for under a grand. Or you can just buy an HTPC for aroudn the same price... I think windows media center is pretty easy to use for the newbies and its a whole lot better than bose.

next you need power + speakers. With 2k to left to spend you cant even look at me with a straight face and tell me this is going to be difficult. Thread over. Even my 250 dollar Klipsch Promedia 5.1 ultras sound better than the a lifestyle and yes I have compared the two systems in the same room off the same input source. It was embarrassing.

buy a PC with an audigy x-fi, an ATI all in wonder, dvd etc... You already have more features than that bose and you can get al that for under a grand. Or you can just buy an HTPC for aroudn the same price... I think windows media center is pretty easy to use for the newbies and its a whole lot better than bose.

next you need power + speakers. With 2k to left to spend you cant even look at me with a straight face and tell me this is going to be difficult. Thread over. Even my 250 dollar Klipsch Promedia 5.1 ultras sound better than the a lifestyle and yes I have compared the two systems in the same room off the same input source. It was embarrassing.

Now, what about attractive package (lifestyle center), easy to use , single remote, immediate turn on, no virus or start-up problems, no computer knowledge neccesary, damn few cables?

I already know about the sound quality part, that's a given, but try to get most people to put up with all the extra knowledge and cr@p to deal with and it ain't happening. Computer based systems are only gaining favor with a very small select group of people for many reasons.

The B&O system in Audi's (soon to grace the A6 as well) is a $7800 US option.

Now, what about attractive package (lifestyle center), easy to use , single remote, immediate turn on, no virus or start-up problems, no computer knowledge neccesary, damn few cables?

Its quite easy to have the PC automatically boot right into the application. I believe the ATI All-n-Wonder has a remote that can turn the computer on (I know it can turn the computer off). You can then use the remote for anything.

And if someone's worried about viruses, just don't plug the computer into the Internet. You're not plugging the Bose Lifestyle system into the Internet, so no difference there.

You get the single remote, no viruses, don't mess with the computer and you won't have start-up problems, you won't need computer knowlege either (just use a portion of the $2K to have someone set it up for you).

Of course the average consumer will see the $3k for the do-nothing Bose system as a bargain, but someone trying to sell you on a $2k do everything computer system will be seen as ripping you off.

--SimpleTheater

well the one I sawzalled into was completly blown. (hence why I wasn't using them) but I actually had a pair of them, (the 2nd one I didn't touch and I BELIEVE it still works) any idea where I can find a picture of old bose equipment? and if I can find out if it's worth anything?

-Nick

Do a search on ebay on Bose, and look at all the different speakers.

The B&O system in Audi's (soon to grace the A6 as well) is a $7800 US option.

I think I spent less on my entire HT, 50" plasma TV included

buy a PC with an audigy x-fi, an ATI all in wonder, dvd etc... You already have more features than that bose and you can get al that for under a grand. Or you can just buy an HTPC for aroudn the same price... I think windows media center is pretty easy to use for the newbies and its a whole lot better than bose.

next you need power + speakers. With 2k to left to spend you cant even look at me with a straight face and tell me this is going to be difficult. Thread over. Even my 250 dollar Klipsch Promedia 5.1 ultras sound better than the a lifestyle and yes I have compared the two systems in the same room off the same input source. It was embarrassing.

Its quite easy to have the PC automatically boot right into the application.
IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING when you set it up.

I believe the ATI All-n-Wonder has a remote that can turn the computer on (I know it can turn the computer off). You can then use the remote for anything.

You believe , and the remote still must control the receiver so it must be programmed if possible (plus the programming expense)

And if someone's worried about viruses, just don't plug the computer into the Internet. You're not plugging the Bose Lifestyle system into the Internet, so no difference there.

I thought it was connected for track ID (but I'm not sure about this)

You get the single remote, no viruses, don't mess with the computer and you won't have start-up problems, you won't need computer knowlege either (just use a portion of the $2K to have someone set it up for you).

ok., a portion of what $2k ? Between $2k for the audio system, a computer with the right kind of a/v output sound/video card and a universal remote ($1k seems VERY optimistic to me) and $2k for someone to hook it all up, then you have the horizontal (presumably) case, and an A/V receiver and all the wires between them , and a unit that will likely need some periodic support for $5k+.

Go ahead try it , make it look as pretty as possible and see how cheaply it can be done, then ask grandma to work every function. Also assume a satelitte receiver or cable box, zone 2 options, and single rf remote operation from elsewhere in the house (or through a cabinet).

Go ahead try it , make it look as pretty as possible and see how cheaply it can be done, then ask grandma to work every function. Also assume a satelitte receiver or cable box, zone 2 options, and single rf remote operation from elsewhere in the house (or through a cabinet).

What are you so uptight about? You're making assumptions about costs. There is a market for pre-fab'd media center PC's for about $1K. A decent computer technician can set the whole thing up for under a grand with a Universal Remote (about $500 more for a touch screen remote).

Grandma could use it, and since no additional software would have to be installed, there are no service calls and it will be extremely stable.

I'm not saying I'd go that route (computers suck power and make a lot of noise), but if people really want simplicity, a decent computer guy could have anyone up and running for a lot less than that Bose system (better sound and just as easy to use).

--SimpleTheater

What are you so uptight about?

I am not uptight, just trying to make a point.

My point was if you wanted BETTER sound than a Bose LifeStyle system, you could do it with a computer.

I think you meant better speakers (and maybe also a receiver) in conjunction with a computer, may give you better sound. I would conceed that you could perhaps do so.

If you want simplicity above all else, buy the following:

NAD T743 Receiver $700
NAD 514 DVD $300
Definitive BP6D Front Speakers $600
Definitive 2002 Center Channel $500
Definitive BP 1.2 Sides $350
Definitive Pro Sub 100L $450

That's everything that Bose offers, and the price is $2900. Not only cheaper than the Bose system, but in a league so far removed from the Bose you'd think you accidentally ordered the Bose clock/radio.

Still seperate pieces for dvd and receiver, still no rf remote, AND where's the hard drive music server? Not to mention the size of the speakers.

I'M LOOKING AT THE WHOLE PACKAGE, not just besting the $h!tty little speakers they give you (which I would say is easy, except all little speakers are $h!tty, IMO)

I'm not trying to defend their sound quality, just trying to express the appeal these systems have for many.

just did a search and found they are the 901's that I have. from what I can see they are 901 series III. I'm gonna hook it up when I get ym enw receiver and see if the one I haven't mangled still works. anyone interested ;-) just kidding, hehe

Well, they'd have fetched a bit on Ebay had you not butchered one.

well the one I sawzalled into was completly blown. (hence why I wasn't using them) but I actually had a pair of them, (the 2nd one I didn't touch and I BELIEVE it still works) any idea where I can find a picture of old bose equipment? and if I can find out if it's worth anything?

-Nick


Well, I don't think it was "completly" blown. It consists of 9 drivers and a crossover so just because sound stopped coming out doesn't mean all 9 drivers are shot.
901's still command a premium price...inexplicable, but then it falls under the same svengali like attraction anything with "Bose" written on it has.
In the 70's I built custom speakers. Big, bass reflex, huge box, my wife's gonna kill me speakers. But in those days, with little alternative in the way of smaller speakers, it was less of a WAF issue. If you had a "stereo", you had 2 sizeable speakers. You just put lamps and ash trays on them to make them more useful.
The 901's were the beginning of the end of designing loudspeakers for optimum sound rather than optimum looks.
I once took a pair in trade, gave $100 credit towards a custom pair I built and sold the Bose 901's the next day for $300 to a guy I never liked anyway.

They need a new Motto, like this:

" Bose .......the Wagner Power Painter of loudspeakers"

I'm not trying to defend their sound quality, just trying to express the appeal these systems have for many.
To me everything he offered in that setup far outweighs those values you mention however I cannot discount that for many people what Bose offers is more important to them. While I cannot imagine how I would justify spending what Bose wants for their product, I'm going to leave those people alone about it as long as I don't have to hear them blabbering about how great they think their Bose equipment sounds.

There aren't a lot of small speakers out there, I think Mirage and Gallo have some but how much do they cost and how do they sound (besides better than Bose, I'm sure). You still don't get that cute little control unit and the Bose name which matters to some.

I think the biggest problem with Bose isn't that what they make isn't very good (even though it isn't) but that it's horrendously overpriced.

If you had a "stereo", you had 2 sizeable speakers. You just put lamps and ash trays on them to make them more useful.
Reminds me of a pair of Technics speakers I used to have. 8" deep, a foot wide... I kept my inkjet printer on top of one of them.

I think the biggest problem with Bose isn't that what they make isn't very good (even though it isn't) but that it's horrendously overpriced.

Again, sonicly, I agree, but there is far more to consider for most people, and even for many here , a hard drive server is fairly cool (though there's isn't good, just simple to use).

Again, sonicly, I agree, but there is far more to consider for most people, and even for many here , a hard drive server is fairly cool (though there's isn't good, just simple to use).
That was the exact point of my post, believe it or not. Bose is a cheap, convenient product crammed in to a box with an expensive price tag. If I wanted a HD server there's plenty of other products on the market to choose from that are better sonically which to me is the most important thing.

The same argument creeps in to portable players in iPod vs creative/iRiver/Cowon (iAudio). The iPod isn't the best sounding, never was, but it is the most convenient and easy to use as well as a recognized piece of jewellery. I would still never choose the iPod if my intention was to listen to music and enjoy it as much as I could. Much the same I wouldn't choose Bose if my ears depended on it but some people aren't going to notice the loss of quality and they may value the things Bose can offer.

Ultimately we wouldn't have these discussions if Bose didn't market themselves as the audiophile's choice and if their prices were sane.

But I don't believe that their lifestyles system prices are insane anymore than I think it's insane to purchase a crappy sounding Ipud for $400 . I have a portable music device with 10gigs and NO , I would NEVER want to plug it into my main system, but sonic quality isn't why I bought it, it's just a means of getting portable content.

I have an Escient system at home and a fantastic remote, and my equipment is remotely located and can be operated from panels and simple to use remotes throughout my home, many of my speakers are in-wall/ceiling and certainly sound better than the Bose,
but this system came at a price, including what most would spend on installation and programming. Except for the SQ part, Bose is giving people a "taste" of this kind of ease of use , and conieniance , for a fraction of what I've spent.
but this convieniance

The same argument creeps in to portable players in iPod vs creative/iRiver/Cowon (iAudio). The iPod isn't the best sounding, never was, but it is the most convenient and easy to use as well as a recognized piece of jewellery.

a little off topic here, but I can't help asking: what in your opinion is the best-sounding MP3 player?

a little off topic here, but I can't help asking: what in your opinion is the best-sounding MP3 player?
I dont even want to go there because that's another war!

One's that allow FLAC RECORDING and have better headphones :)

But I don't believe that their lifestyles system prices are insane anymore than I think it's insane to purchase a crappy sounding Ipud for $400 . I have a portable music device with 10gigs and NO , I would NEVER want to plug it into my main system, but sonic quality isn't why I bought it, it's just a means of getting portable content.

I have an Escient system at home and a fantastic remote, and my equipment is remotely located and can be operated from panels and simple to use remotes throughout my home, many of my speakers are in-wall/ceiling and certainly sound better than the Bose,
but this system came at a price, including what most would spend on installation and programming. Except for the SQ part, Bose is giving people a "taste" of this kind of ease of use , and conieniance , for a fraction of what I've spent.
but this convieniance

convieniance???



the whole multimedia harddrive is hardly worth writing home about. Does it have nearly the options of a receiver? You think its convenient? Well, let me tell you something, I have had to suffer with a bose lifestyle system for a number of years and getting that freaking thing to sound remotely passable for movies was damn near impossible. I never even knew if Dolby digital was working correctly or it was just some bose 5.1 up mixer crap which I’m pretty sure ALWAYS was, and you can forget about DTS. The answer I got from the bose rep was “Bose did not want to wast resources inveting hardware into the DTS processor because we were skeptical about its future, and clearly we were right, DTS is a failed format” I KID YOU NOT, I GOT THAT ANSWER 3 YEARS AGO IN A BOSE STORE! It was the worst surround sound system I have had to endure and that is not even exaggerated. The power cords always feel out of the subwoofer and we were often troubleshooting what the heck went wrong with it. I swear it had a mind of its own when trying to switch input from CD to aux. I don't even understand why it failed 1/2 the time. Compared to my new denon, life has been much more trouble free. The denon is automatic. Provides hundreds of more features which are surprisingly less aggravating to use than anything I have ever attempt to get working on the bose lifestyle systems. Lets not even begin to talk about speaker quality. There are countless small speaker solutions from paradigm, energy, Klipsch orb audio, aperion, axiom, mirage, svs, onix, monitor audio, etc, etc, etc… that outgun thoes jewl cubes in literally all aspects. On top of that, you they are almost all cheaper.

a jewl cube retails for 200 dollars. Find me a speaker, large or small, that performs worse for that price.

We've already addressed the shortcomings in sound and features (though the majority in the world never use DTS) , WE DON'T NEED to keep bringing that up, it's a given and has been hammered to death, yes some other satelitte speakers suck less than Bose.

the whole multimedia harddrive is hardly worth writing home about

This Hard drive server , the multiroom rf remote, the attractive central control unit, the lack of sophistication (read ease of operation for less techie people) , etc. , are what we IN THE BUISNESS, need to overcome with products that ALSO SOUND BETTER AND OFFER MORE. While it can be done, it isn't going to be any real cost savings, given these priorities, no matter how little value vs sound quality WITHOUT THEM that you or I or most here would place on these factors.
For the record, in my mind there are plentyu of fools who blow WAY TOO LARGE a percentage of their budget on a SS Rcvr with every bell and whistle under the sun (like HDMI SWITCHING/ scaling/upconverting) only to spend $800 on a satelitte speaker system that sounds like ....well you know how they all sound.

well like I said, I "butchered" the front of the speaker, but not any of the drivers. are the drivers themselves worth anything? (also I still have on untouched speaker)

-nick