The cheapest Bose system is like $1400.

The Polks are $600...add in $170 for a good Oppo DVD player http://oppodigital.com/dv980h/default.asp and $380 for an Onkyo Receiver http://onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-SR505&class=Receiver&p=i and some BlueJeansCables ($100) and you have a system that is WORLDS better than any of the Bose systems and $150 cheaper than the cheapest Bose system.

And for those who can't be bothered to set it up, add in $20 to buy dinner for the high school kid on the street that will do it for you.
What happened to the $500 Bose-beating HTIBs you claimed were commonly available? No one's arguing that bigger speakers and separates provide better sound than smaller speakers and HTIBs.

Again, are you being purposely obtuse, or do you not understand my question as well as what you so confidently stated in the first place?

Regarding sound, a large chunk of the population doesn't listen to movies, TV, and music at 70-90dB, and has no desire to do so.

I don't think we all spend so much time on this forum because we are a part of that "large chunk of population." Isn't this forum a place for people who want to listen to movies at 70-90dB (or louder)? We come here to learn about bigger and better equipment. And by your own admission Bose won't satisfy us because of its limitations...not to mention all of the limitations you won't admit to...

I don't think it's fair to argue that most of the population would be okay with Bose within a forum that is made up of people who would not be satisfied by Bose. Do you criticize people on a Ferrari owner's forum if they say a Saturn isn't fast enough?

Of course, anyone is welcome on this forum, but it is more than obvious that we are here looking for bigger and better alternatives to a product with the limitations of Bose. As for a link to a better product please take a look at any Onkyo HTIB at many major retailers.

Troll for comments much?
Trolls like you don't like it when someone calls BS on them. I called. You ran away.

I don't think we all spend so much time on this forum because we are a part of that "large chunk of population." Isn't this forum a place for people who want to listen to movies at 70-90dB (or louder)? We come here to learn about bigger and better equipment. And by your own admission Bose won't satisfy us because of its limitations...not to mention all of the limitations you won't admit to...

I don't think it's fair to argue that most of the population would be okay with Bose within a forum that is made up of people who would not be satisfied by Bose. Do you criticize people on a Ferrari owner's forum if they say a Saturn isn't fast enough?

Of course, anyone is welcome on this forum, but it is more than obvious that we are here looking for bigger and better alternatives to a product with the limitations of Bose. As for a link to a better product please take a look at any Onkyo HTIB at many major retailers.
Well written, but you're missing the point. Big receiver, big speakers, separate DVD player, are not equivalent to the Bose experience.

Regarding why you all are here, isn't it to help one another? Or do you have to swear a vow that only certain types of systems are worthy of discussion (regardless of purchaser and application), while the rest are to be ridiculed, and their owners put-down?

Bose satisfies a very large niche and offers value to many, including (from what I see) some very knowledgeable posters here. It definitely has a place in this forum.

Your analogy is off as well. A proper comparison would be an auto forum where all types come together, but Hummer is universally ridiculed by Saturn and Ferrari owners alike. While there are no obvious competitors to Hummer, owners are constantly told to sell it and get a real vehicle. Hummer threads are attacked by trolls, etc. etc. Yes, I'd have a problem with that too, but I'm not that interested in cars to join one of those forums.

What happened to the $500 Bose-beating HTIBs you claimed were commonly available? No one's arguing that bigger speakers and separates provide better sound than smaller speakers and HTIBs.

Again, are you being purposely obtuse, or do you not understand my question as well as what you so confidently stated in the first place?

Again you must have missed the part where I meant a $500 speaker system...Anyone who buys an all in one system deserves what they get.

I gave a viable alternative to Bose that will be just as easy to set up, is cheaper and will perform much better in all respects.

My work here is done.

Even the $40.00 durabrand system has better mids and lows than the bose High's too.

What happened to the $500 Bose-beating HTIBs you claimed were commonly available? No one's arguing that bigger speakers and separates provide better sound than smaller speakers and HTIBs.

Again, are you being purposely obtuse, or do you not understand my question as well as what you so confidently stated in the first place?

I see, so you are agreeing that larger speakers sound better and your entire argument is the small size of the Bose satellites? That's interesting logic for an audio forum where generally the quality of the sound is placed as the highest criteria. Just because no other mfr has the balls to sell a set of 2 inch paper cones for $1000 doesn't automatically make them better than everyone else. IMHO almost any $300-$500 HTiB satellite system with the bass & treble tone controls bumped up to max are the equal of the Bose. You want links? OK:
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665061026

I happen to think that Sony system sounds like cr@p. I also think Bose sounds like cr@p. I wouldn't own either one of them, but I do think they have comparable sound quality.

Well written, but you're missing the point. Big receiver, big speakers, separate DVD player, are not equivalent to the Bose experience.

Regarding why you all are here, isn't it to help one another? Or do you have to swear a vow that only certain types of systems are worthy of discussion (regardless of purchaser and application), while the rest are to be ridiculed, and their owners put-down?

Bose satisfies a very large niche and offers value to many, including (from what I see) some very knowledgeable posters here. It definitely has a place in this forum.

Your analogy is off as well. A proper comparison would be an auto forum where all types come together, but Hummer is universally ridiculed by Saturn and Ferrari owners alike. While there are no obvious competitors to Hummer, owners are constantly told to sell it and get a real vehicle. Hummer threads are attacked by trolls, etc. etc. Yes, I'd have a problem with that too, but I'm not that interested in cars to join one of those forums.

I have to admit that I had no idea what the "Bose experience" is. And I don't mean that sarcastically. If that's what it means to you...then we're missing YOUR point. Sony has a system that meets your needs and more...it's smaller and cheaper. Look for the Sony DAV-IS10. Some of the new speaker surround bars would meet your needs as well.

I agree with you. We are here to help each other and I am constantly annoyed by posters who will only quip in with their favorite products and ignore budget requirements, etc. But are there people here who will be truly served by Bose? I can't recommend to any of my family or friends in good conscience to spend their money on Bose. I will help them find a less expensive solution come hell or high water...

I think your criticism of my analogy is telling…you don’t seem to think that Bose has competition. All types do come together here, but many don’t feel Bose has no competition…they feel that everything is competition to Bose.

First of all, you can't compare tiny square speakers like Bose to bookshelves or floor standers. I think that is where a lot of people here are going wrong. You can't even compare Bose to "tweeners" either.

Bose and those Sony speakers are what they are.....tiny speakers. They only can be compared in that league. While I hate Bose myself, I am not going to rant on them. No matter what technology you pack into those little squarers, they aren't going to sound like bigger speakers....period.

With that being said, Bose sounds decent for how small they really are. When I say decent, don't take that as meaning great. Are they overpriced? Heck yes, but they get away with it and have great marketing. You can't hate them for that....it's business. Just take them for what they are and don't overanalyze the situation.

Are they overpriced? Heck yes, but they get away with it and have great marketing. You can't hate them for that....it's business. Just take them for what they are and don't overanalyze the situation.

Heh, I would disagree. Just like with Monster Cable and their overzealous use of attorneys (not to mention the lack of value in their products), Bose offers ZERO value to their customers at the price point that they sell at.

Therefore I can say that their business practices are slimy at best and under no way, shape or form should they ever be recommended to someone as a home theater solution.

And I say that it isn't "just business" to sell a product at a premium just because you can get away with it. Anymore than it's "just business" when someone sells speaker wire at $7,000 a foot. And yes I lump Bose in with those companies. They abuse the pocketbooks of the uninformed.

That to me is not "good business" and should not be lauded, or awarded.

In fact I would even go so far as to say that if you choices are going with a Bose system or to just use the speakers in your TV, you are better off saving the money and just using your TV speakers.

You'll save yourself a lot of time, trouble and money and get about the same experience.

What happened to the $500 Bose-beating HTIBs you claimed were commonly available? No one's arguing that bigger speakers and separates provide better sound than smaller speakers and HTIBs.

Again, are you being purposely obtuse, or do you not understand my question as well as what you so confidently stated in the first place?

id take the onkyo str600 and str800 over bose any day. id also take the str908 for about a grand over anything bose. also any of the yamaha systems. there you want 500 dollar htib you got them. bose sounds like someone is talking into a metal trash can.

Thank you, ChicagoTC.
Has anyone heard the Sony and can compare it to a Bose? Very small speakers. Would anyone expect them to provide comparable or better sound than the Bose cubes and Acoustimass?

I have heard the Sony. A friend won the system in a casino. Bose sounds better and is much simpler to use.

Onkyo has some very good HTIB systems.

There's little old ladies sitting somewhere right now passionately arguing over the best brand of knitting needles...

In fact I would even go so far as to say that if you choices are going with a Bose system or to just use the speakers in your TV, you are better off saving the money and just using your TV speakers.

You'll save yourself a lot of time, trouble and money and get about the same experience.

What is in your system?

Heh, I would disagree. Just like with Monster Cable and their overzealous use of attorneys (not to mention the lack of value in their products), Bose offers ZERO value to their customers at the price point that they sell at.

Therefore I can say that their business practices are slimy at best and under no way, shape or form should they ever be recommended to someone as a home theater solution.

And I say that it isn't "just business" to sell a product at a premium just because you can get away with it. Anymore than it's "just business" when someone sells speaker wire at $7,000 a foot. And yes I lump Bose in with those companies. They abuse the pocketbooks of the uninformed.

That to me is not "good business" and should not be lauded, or awarded.

When did I ever say it was "good business"? How do you think early banking and oil moguls made their fortunes? You think it was conducting "good business"? It's a sad aspect of corporate America. Some companies like Monster and Bose conduct their business this way unfortunately. Do I think it's right? No.

My point is that marketing is highly used to push mediocre products out the door. I am in marketing, so I know this well. I don't think it's right, and thank God I am pushing a good, honest product.

If you wanna talk about something that doesn't deliver any goods at all, that would definitely be the 800 dollar Sony golf ball size speaker HTIB. That crappy system didn't even sound good with my head being only a foot away from it. Atleast with Bose you pay a ton of money and have a little something to show for it. That Sony system is a pure piece of sh!t.

That doesn't sound like a problem to me. Name me one major company that doesn't rely on marketing and distribution to make money. Heck, even most churches have marketing departments nowadays for God's sake. No pun intended.

Many members on this AVS Forum like to actually help people and consumers w/their consumer electronics purchases. When we see a fox in the hen house, we attempt to sound an alarm or warning. Granted, this warning can fall on deaf ears, and it's pretty tough to get away from a mega-million dollar marketing campaign, not to mention the specially trained seals at the Worst Buy/Big Box Zoo. For those that have drunk the koolaid, then I say good luck, adios. For those that are on here for help & to get the straight talk w/o the hidden agendas, then I say keep reading and researching. There are many audio threads on AVS, and there are other AV Forums as well as consumer sites scattered around the internet. Once you become an "informed" consumer, I do not think you will be putting Bose on your shopping list.

Bose has a product that no one else has they can set whatever price they want to for it.
I don't hate them for it. I won't buy it. But a lot of people will and they will be satisfied with it. Who are we to say it's not good enough for them? I do know it's a lot easier to operate than a lot of modern AVRs. For a lot of people that is enough to make it worth it. If anyone thinks any company is not getting every penny they can for the products they sell, your deluding yourself. They have spent millions on advertising to the masses and they have to make money somehow.
For anyone to say that you can get as good a performance out of TV speakers is rediculous.
You can blast away at anything I've said, but I'm done with this stupid argument.

Bose is fighting physics with their tiny cube speakers. There is a reason why woofers are 8, 10, 12, 15 inches in diameter. It takes that area to generate audible low frequencies. The same goes for midrange frequencies (drivers usually measured from 4-8 inches in diameter). Tweeters are generally 1/2-1 inch in diameter.

Granted there are manufacturers that try to make up the area required by using multiple drivers. One 4 inch driver has an area of 12.57 sq. inches. One 8 inch driver has an area of 50.27 sq. inches. It takes four 4 inch drivers to come close to one 8 inch driver.

Now tell me why Bose lacks lows, highs and is incomplete in the midrange. I've never opened up one of the Bose cubes but I'm guessing they have a single 2 inch driver in each? My friend's Acoustimass bass module has a 5 inch driver in it.

Don't fight the law of physics...


Its even sillier for a costomer to expect speakers with smaller drivers to provide the same full sound as larger drivers. this goes to other speaker manufacturers as well that put two "4" coaxial drivers in 3 foot tall ported cabinets and sell them for $$$$$$$

Well written, but you're missing the point. Big receiver, big speakers, separate DVD player, are not equivalent to the Bose experience.

Regarding why you all are here, isn't it to help one another? Or do you have to swear a vow that only certain types of systems are worthy of discussion (regardless of purchaser and application), while the rest are to be ridiculed, and their owners put-down?

Bose satisfies a very large niche and offers value to many, including (from what I see) some very knowledgeable posters here. It definitely has a place in this forum.

Your analogy is off as well. A proper comparison would be an auto forum where all types come together, but Hummer is universally ridiculed by Saturn and Ferrari owners alike. While there are no obvious competitors to Hummer, owners are constantly told to sell it and get a real vehicle. Hummer threads are attacked by trolls, etc. etc. Yes, I'd have a problem with that too, but I'm not that interested in cars to join one of those forums.

Hi Wilson. Very interesting turn in this thread. Thank you for your contribution. I understand what you are saying. Obviously BOSE has a market segment they are serving. Their profits indicate they are serving their target market well.

What I don't understand is....

Why they heck would you come to an enthusiasts' forum where (obviously) the membership enjoys researching and comparing products (VERY few of us here are convenience shoppers, but instead are more performance buyers) and try to help us understand why BOSE is good for people outside this community?

Instead of broadening our minds, it seems like you're just trying to pick a fight. What do you expect to solve here? Or prove?

Just as BOSE considers its audience when it markets its product, maybe you should consider the audience here in this forum when you're trying to sell an idea.

Your mention of cars is appropriate. What you're doing here seems a bit like like going into a drag racing enthusiast forum and arguing that Hyundai makes a fine automobile, that we should stop telling Hyundai jokes, and that Hyundai must be a fine car because their sales have increased. I just don't understand what you're trying to accomplish other than playing intellectual tag. Seems pointless to me.

Well written, but you're missing the point. Big receiver, big speakers, separate DVD player, are not equivalent to the Bose experience.

What exactly is this "Bose Experience" I keep hearing about? Is there also an Onkyo experience or Polk experience? Or do you you have to purchase Bose to
get this?

I see, so you are agreeing that larger speakers sound better and your entire argument is the small size of the Bose satellites? That's interesting logic for an audio forum where generally the quality of the sound is placed as the highest criteria. Just because no other mfr has the balls to sell a set of 2 inch paper cones for $1000 doesn't automatically make them better than everyone else. IMHO almost any $300-$500 HTiB satellite system with the bass & treble tone controls bumped up to max are the equal of the Bose. You want links? OK:
http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665061026

I happen to think that Sony system sounds like cr@p. I also think Bose sounds like cr@p. I wouldn't own either one of them, but I do think they have comparable sound quality.
Ah, it's a reading comprehension problem that you have. That's not a link to a comparable system. There's no DVD player and the receiver is HUGE compared to the Bose control unit.

It's funny how bashing Bose is OK, but now that someone is calling BS on the bashers, all of a sudden, it's no longer acceptable to talk about Bose?

What exactly is this "Bose Experience" I keep hearing about? Is there also an Onkyo experience or Polk experience? Or do you you have to purchase Bose to
get this?
As I noted in my OP, it's a combination of ergonomic design, aesthetic appeal, convenience of purchase, and ease of setup and use.

As I noted in my OP, it's a combination of ergonomic design, aesthetic appeal, convenience of purchase, and ease of setup and use.

so sound quality is not part of the "Bose experience"?

Hi Wilson. Very interesting turn in this thread. Thank you for your contribution. I understand what you are saying. Obviously BOSE has a market segment they are serving. Their profits indicate they are serving their target market well.

What I don't understand is....

Why they heck would you come to an enthusiasts' forum where (obviously) the membership enjoys researching and comparing products (VERY few of us here are convenience shoppers, but instead are more performance buyers) and try to help us understand why BOSE is good for people outside this community?

Instead of broadening our minds, it seems like you're just trying to pick a fight. What do you expect to solve here? Or prove?

Just as BOSE considers its audience when it markets its product, maybe you should consider the audience here in this forum when you're trying to sell an idea.

Your mention of cars is appropriate. What you're doing here seems a bit like like going into a drag racing enthusiast forum and arguing that Hyundai makes a fine automobile, that we should stop telling Hyundai jokes, and that Hyundai must be a fine car because their sales have increased. I just don't understand what you're trying to accomplish other than playing intellectual tag. Seems pointless to me.
Again, I didn't start the Bose threads or bashing, just pointing out the BS that's getting spewed here, and providing an opinion that others have not. So yes, I believe that I am adding greatly to the discussion - just look at all the responses with folks adding new positive comments. Conversely, I see the bashers repeating the same tired memes I noted in my OP, or (now that they're getting beat with logic and facts) saying that Bose doesn't belong here, in an effort to stifle discussion.

So, are you saying that Bose threads are OK as long as only bashing takes place? Hmm, don't think that's how it works.

it's a combination of ergonomic design, aesthetic appeal, convenience of purchase, and ease of setup and use.

This is spot on. I don't know why people feel so threatened by the fact that Bose exists. It doesn't take anything away from another setup. But mention Bose and people start screaming that "oh what a horrible company they take advantage of people who don't know any better". Well my thought is, people don't care. They want an easy to set up
unit that is easy to operate and is very discreet. How large is your stack of A/V gear?
I know I have a receiver, a hd-dvd player, sat box, and a large amp. Most wives just won't tolerate that kind of equipment in their living room. I got lucky and found a tech savvy wife.
And the issue that no one seems to address. Why don't any of the other great manufacturers try to educate consumers about quality audio? I mean if it's that obvious to anyone who hears it, it would be an easy thing to demonstrate right? They don't do it because it's a moot point, those who want a Bose system are already sold on the fact that they want a Bose system.

I used to sell audio equipment, I worked for two different stores while I was in college. The first sold Bose. That's partially why I quit and went to work at a better place that didn't sell Bose.

Aside from all of the stories about how bad they sound, we've heard enough, I'll tell you why I don't like them from a salesman point of view. First, they fix their prices. That's why you never see sales anywhere, unless Bose lifts the restrictions on a certain model (usually because they want to clear stock because they're about to come out with something new), then everyone has sales. IMHO, price fixing is immoral and should be illegal. I don't know why retailers stand for it. Second, Bose wants to control their prices so tightly, they won't even allow the store to sell customer returns or demo units at discounts (unless again, it's a discontinued model). If a customer returned a set of Bose because...(they didn't like them, wife said no, didn't need them, second thoughts about spending all of that money, etc...), we couldn't turn around and sell it to a customer at a discount. Third, Bose required to be set up seperate from other brands of speakers, so you couldn't do AB comparisons and really get customers the right speakers for their listening habits. Fourth, people come in brainwashed from all of the advertising. Some sales people like this, as it provides for quick, easy, commission-boosting sales. However, I couldn't handle selling people crap without at least attempting to show something different (I would try to step customers down in price to something better, and sometimes they wouldn't have it!!!). Fifth, they're poorly built, many customer returns and hassles over blown speakers, etc. Sixth, I'd always have to handle tons of phone calls after selling a set of Bose ("why doesn't my system sound as good as in the store?" "Can you help me verify I have everything situated/hooked up correctly?") An after sales nightmare. After awhile, I basically refused to sell Bose speakers. Maybe I was being unreasonable for a salesman, but I'd had it with their crappy products and all of the headaches that occured after the sales. I flat out refused to ring one customer up on a set of acoustimass speakers. They complained to my manager, he wrote me up, I went out and applied to a real store, and the rest is history.

One other note...people keep citing "WAF" and "ease of setup" and "convenient all in one system" as reasons for buying Bose. Sorry, but in my humble opinion, that's a bunch of BS to justify having already thrown your money away on garbage. Bose was the first company to take the satellite/sub concept and run mainstream with it, so they get that recognition (again, great marketing on their part, but that's about it). Over the last 7 years or so, several companies have made just as small, convenient, good looking systems for comparable prices to the lifestyle systems that sound MUCH better. People buy Bose for one of two reasons: 1, for the same reason they buy clothes with designer names printed all freaking over them, like Tommy Jeans or what not. It's all about having that big brand name in the house that says "I'm not cheap, I paid for the best." Nothing more. Either that, or they are so brainwashed and closed minded that they absolutely refuse to even consider anything else. After all, if Mr. (sellout) Paul Harvey says they are the best, then it must be. No two bit college student wearing a cheap polo shirt is going to tell me otherwise.

Sorry if I insulted anyone, but that's my honest opinion. If you buy Bose, it's because you fall into one of those two categories.

Here's a flashback for ya.

Also, I think SOhp101 deserves some credit for searching rather than just starting a duplicate thread.

BTW for anyone who wants a pretty good write up on Bose (specifically their AM-15 system), check out this thread (http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html). I don't remember if it was already mentioned on a previous page, but I recently read it from another thread's link.

If you don't want to read that essay, then at least check out the author's (Rich Wang's) conclusion:

:D

Edit: Fixed a link.

Here's a great link for those that want to know some facts.

While I do think Bose are overpriced and their success is mainly due to their marketing, they do offer a product that people want and like and I can't fault them for that. To me it's no different than someone who wants the greatest & fastest computer for gaming, then they go on the Dell website and pay $3,000 for one of their gaming models when they could've built it themselves for roughly half the price. If someone is able to take it home, plug it in, and then be happy with it... I'm fine with that. The couple people that I've known that had Bose systems were extremely happy with them. We could argue that they were stupid, brainwashed, didn't know any better, etc... but to me if they're happy with it, more power to 'em.


I build my own computers and I'm building my own HT system.

While I do think Bose are overpriced and their success is mainly due to their marketing, they do offer a product that people want and like and I can't fault them for that. To me it's no different than someone who wants the greatest & fastest computer for gaming, then they go on the Dell website and pay $3,000 for one of their gaming models when they could've built it themselves for roughly half the price. If someone is able to take it home, plug it in, and then be happy with it... I'm fine with that. The couple people that I've known that had Bose systems were extremely happy with them. We could argue that they were stupid, brainwashed, didn't know any better, etc... but to me if they're happy with it, more power to 'em.


I build my own computers and I'm building my own HT system.

"Friends don't let friends buy Bose!" :D

Consumer education and an informed public is what I'm stressing. Your friends may be happy with their Bose, but I have to wonder just how happy they would be if they had later done a little research (ie. the link in my above post) and discovered that they had been conned & fleeced for the tune of a few $grand?? Not any people that I personally know would be "happy" with that thought. Maybe your friends are different, but I doubt it.

While I do think Bose are overpriced and their success is mainly due to their marketing, they do offer a product that people want and like and I can't fault them for that. To me it's no different than someone who wants the greatest & fastest computer for gaming, then they go on the Dell website and pay $3,000 for one of their gaming models when they could've built it themselves for roughly half the price. If someone is able to take it home, plug it in, and then be happy with it... I'm fine with that. The couple people that I've known that had Bose systems were extremely happy with them. We could argue that they were stupid, brainwashed, didn't know any better, etc... but to me if they're happy with it, more power to 'em.


I build my own computers and I'm building my own HT system.

No, buying Bose is more like spending $3000 on a gaming computer with a nice looking case and ending up with a single core Celeron processor, integrated graphics, 1GB of RAM and tons of the bloatware that comes pre installed on Dell computers ;). Sure, those specs might be fine for granny, but if you're expecting to be able to play games, you won't get much further than Solitaire...

Anyway, I'm not a Bose hater either, but there's no way I'll recommend Bose to anyone. If someone really wants Bose, they can feel free to buy it, but I won't personally be responsible for perpetuating the success of low quality audio equipment at high prices.

I don't understand why we have to insult people who buy themselves a sound system no matter the brand on the box, If they enjoy it then they enjoy it.

You also have to take in the account that some people don't do serious listening they use music as something to dance to, or as background music when multitasking as for movies all people really want is something loud that goes snap-crackle-and boom.

I really don't think anyone is An Idiot to purchase anything from Bose, B&O and B&W which fit into the same category A sound system is just a sound system and there are other priorites in life to worry about than who has the biggest and best sound system.

Some of these people have families and spouses that simply won't allow them to bring home the Biggest stereo surround setup in fear that

-There may be too many wires to trip on

-difficulty in setup

-The speakers may be too heavy and may fall on the little ones who pull on everything

-the room is simply too small to stuff 3 foot tall-1 foot deep floor speakers everywhere

-they live in an apartment and want to be a good neighbor

Again, I didn't start the Bose threads or bashing, just pointing out the BS that's getting spewed here, and providing an opinion that others have not. So yes, I believe that I am adding greatly to the discussion - just look at all the responses with folks adding new positive comments. Conversely, I see the bashers repeating the same tired memes I noted in my OP, or (now that they're getting beat with logic and facts) saying that Bose doesn't belong here, in an effort to stifle discussion.

So, are you saying that Bose threads are OK as long as only bashing takes place? Hmm, don't think that's how it works.

Nope. I'm simply trying to suggest that it's foolish to come into an audio forum heavily populated by people who purchase products based on audio performance (not convenience), and then express surprise when the prevailing opinion is opposed to Bose. LOL.

While I admitted there is a market for Bose products, it is NOT with audio enthusiasts who value sound quality. And that's the audience here.

So, either you are trying to pick a fight or you are as obtuse as the elitists you accuse. Since I don't think you're obtuse, I just think you're being purposely confrontational. Some folks get off on that I suppose.

Nope. I'm simply trying to suggest that it's foolish to come into an audio forum heavily populated by people who purchase products based on audio performance (not convenience), and then express surprise when the prevailing opinion is opposed to Bose. LOL.

While I admitted there is a market for Bose products, it is NOT with audio enthusiasts who value sound quality. And that's the audience here.

So, either you are trying to pick a fight or you are as obtuse as the elitists you accuse. Since I don't think you're obtuse, I just think you're being purposely confrontational. Some folks get off on that I suppose.
LOL back at ya. Again, I didn't start the thread - others did. Looks like there wasn't a problem until people started pointing out the misinformation perpetuated by the bashers.

Bose is a legitimate player in the industry and has many viable AV applications to novices and enthusiasts alike. Asserting otherwise is pure folly.

Of course, you have no effective counterargument, so you're trying to exclude competing points of view.

Oh, by the way, speaking of "getting off", have fun in your Bose-haters circle-jerk. Thanks for helping me prove my OP.

I guess if someone wants to BASH a product that others enjoy then I would say lets see what else that person owns so I can BASH it. Then they know how others feel, BASHING is simply WRONG but people get away with it online because they are hidden.

I have posted pics on everything I do and own. Im not hidding behind anything others bash but I havent seen a pic of what they own? Lets see how great the things they own are, lets pick apart their crappy cars, crappy rooms and so on. Its stupid isnt it but they want to BASH then I guess its fair game!?

Yes, my biggest pet peeve is bashing what someone owns!!!

That sounds on the money to me.

LOL back at ya. Again, I didn't start the thread - others did. Looks like there wasn't a problem until people started pointing out the misinformation perpetuated by the bashers.

Bose is a legitimate player in the industry and has many viable AV applications to novices and enthusiasts alike. Asserting otherwise is pure folly.

Of course, you have no effective counterargument, so you're trying to exclude competing points of view.

Oh, by the way, speaking of "getting off", have fun in your Bose-haters circle-jerk. Thanks for helping me prove my OP.

To hell w/a circle jerk! Let's just have an ole fashioned Bose Bash Party w/sledge hammers & pick axes!:D Yeah, that's the ticket!!

A question for ya....Do you work for Bose? Do you sell Bose? I ask because you act like a spokesman for this POS Company. Go back and tell your pards at Bose, Inc. to stop treating us consumers like Rubes. We are sick & tired of being conned & fleeced!

While I have owned Bose in the past, and while I prefer my Paradigm speakers over Bose (although my Paradigm speakers are currently for sale so I can build some Statements (http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/Statements.html)), I will admit the amount of bashing that goes on is probably a little carried away. I myself have made statements against Bose, however when I rethink it, it's just not right to criticize other HT setup's. While I won't recommend Bose, I will try to be more open minded that people who own Bose are happy with their purchase. Like it was stated, if they don't like it, they can return it...

So, either you are trying to pick a fight or you are as obtuse as the elitists you accuse. Since I don't think you're obtuse, I just think you're being purposely confrontational. Some folks get off on that I suppose.

The insulting nature of his posts negates any credibility he might have received. He's just enjoying himself.

He's one of the reasons this thread is so entertaining. :D

stop treating us consumers like Rubes. We are sick & tired of being conned & fleeced!
How were you conned or fleeced? If you don't buy it, neither thing happened to you. If you did, then how did they convince you that it was so great if you actually listened to it? If you bought it without listening to it then you deserve to have paid too much for a mediocre product. I've never been in a store that sells bose without seeing a bose demo area.
I still say they are a company doing what companies do(make money) and people love to hate the top dog. They aren't the best but the are one of the most profitable and that just drives people crazy for some reason.

stop treating us consumers like Rubes. We are sick & tired of being conned & fleeced!
How were you conned or fleeced? If you don't buy it, neither thing happened to you. If you did, then how did they convince you that it was so great if you actually listened to it? If you bought it without listening to it then you deserve to have paid too much for a mediocre product. I've never been in a store that sells bose without seeing a bose demo area.
I still say they are a company doing what companies do(make money) and people love to hate the top dog. They aren't the best but the are one of the most profitable and that just drives people crazy for some reason.

Exactly. They are out to make money! This is why all their comercials are aimed at old folks. Cmon, youve seen the wave radio spots. Old folks are dumb and have alot of extra cash. And to all those about to attack me for calling old folks dumb ask yourself how many of your grandparents could ever program their vcrs, set the clocks on the microwaves, or goodness gracious turn on a computer and make it do something! Bose goes after these people like flees on a dog! Its a simple product with 2 buttons and my god, it must sound good cause all those other old bastards are smiling so big I can see the denture cream! Dont be mad at bose. Be mad at GRANDMA!!! :D

but seriously, bose sucks, why? cause i said so. thats why.

Well I'm happy I found these forums because I was about to buy a Bose sound system... But now I changed my mind.

wilson_jay, I am looking forward to your "why Bose?" thread. I would love to post all the reasons for buying Bose and who the product is perfect for.

Exactly. They are out to make money! This is why all their comercials are aimed at old folks. Cmon, youve seen the wave radio spots. Old folks are dumb and have alot of extra cash. And to all those about to attack me for calling old folks dumb ask yourself how many of your grandparents could ever program their vcrs, set the clocks on the microwaves, or goodness gracious turn on a computer and make it do something! Bose goes after these people like flees on a dog! Its a simple product with 2 buttons and my god, it must sound good cause all those other old bastards are smiling so big I can see the denture cream! Dont be mad at bose. Be mad at GRANDMA!!! :D

but seriously, bose sucks, why? cause i said so. thats why.
Thanks for making it clear why the phrase "special member" is under your name.

The insulting nature of his posts negates any credibility he might have received. He's just enjoying himself.

He's one of the reasons this thread is so entertaining. :D
If "insulting nature" negates credibility, then there are very few credible posts bashing Bose, and way more credible posts extolling Bose's benefits.

To hell w/a circle jerk! Let's just have an ole fashioned Bose Bash Party w/sledge hammers & pick axes!:D Yeah, that's the ticket!!

A question for ya....Do you work for Bose? Do you sell Bose? I ask because you act like a spokesman for this POS Company. Go back and tell your pards at Bose, Inc. to stop treating us consumers like Rubes. We are sick & tired of being conned & fleeced!
Nope, no affiliation ever with Bose or any entity that sells Bose. It really doesn't require any esoteric knowledge to duel the Bose bashing "brain trust" around here - just common sense and a sense of fair play.

It really doesn't require any esoteric knowledge to duel the Bose bashing "brain trust" around here - just common sense and a sense of fair play.

And conveniently forgetting that the most important thing when buying speakers is how they SOUND.

Oh and please stop misusing the term ergonomics when it comes to consumer electronics. Ease of use and ergonomics are not the same thing.

You could talk about the ergonomics of the dashboard controls of a car, but ergonomics does NOT come in to play when you are talking about setting up or using consumer electronics, except for say the ergonomics of a remote or game controller.

And conveniently forgetting that the most important thing when buying speakers is how they SOUND.

Oh and please stop misusing the term ergonomics when it comes to consumer electronics. Ease of use and ergonomics are not the same thing.

You could talk about the ergonomics of the dashboard controls of a car, but ergonomics does NOT come in to play when you are talking about setting up or using consumer electronics, except for say the ergonomics of a remote or game controller.
I thought you said were "done" getting abused by me. You even lie when you're being a quitter.

Of course there are ergonomics to the head unit and the remote. Once again, for the vast majority of audio purchases, sound is not the ONLY consideration.

Funny, Bose products have been purchased and enjoyed by hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people. It seems that the bashers (and/or their friends) are the only ones who lack the intelligence to follow the simple tasks on the color picture cards to set up a Bose system so it sounds good.

I guess that's why they get defensive and angry at the manufacturer, the retail stores, and the people that are smarter than them who can follow the pictures and get enjoyable sound and performance from a Bose product.

Ah, it's a reading comprehension problem that you have. That's not a link to a comparable system. There's no DVD player and the receiver is HUGE compared to the Bose control unit.

It's funny how bashing Bose is OK, but now that someone is calling BS on the bashers, all of a sudden, it's no longer acceptable to talk about Bose?

It's a writing clarity problem that you have. Let's check your previous spew:

What happened to the $500 Bose-beating HTIBs you claimed were commonly available? No one's arguing that bigger speakers and separates provide better sound than smaller speakers and HTIBs.

Again, are you being purposely obtuse, or do you not understand my question as well as what you so confidently stated in the first place?

The rules of the game are changing with each of your posts - first it was the size of the speakers, and now it appears that the inclusion of a DVD player is the feature which makes the Bose systems your gold standard. OK, just to at least keep up the appearance of attempting to play by your rules:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-ZkfyAkG2BX3/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?i=158DAVIS10
Granted, it's a bit over the $500 budget, but still, it's got to be a Bose-killer - it has much smaller speakers, a DVD player AND a 6.75" subwoofer with a whopping 150w. Sony has managed to 1-up Bose in every one of your prime requirement categories (including sounding even worse than Bose) and they did it for 1/3 the price! You must be ecstatic.

Here's a novel idea for the typical Bose customer - instead of spending $2000 on a Bose system in order to get "convenience", spend $1500 on a system capable of actually producing decent sound quality, then pay the Geek Squad $500 to install it.

Tag, you're it...

I thought you said were "done" getting abused by me.

How old are you, really? I don't see you "abusing" anyone. Maybe you meant "amusing"...that's my feeling after reading your posts.

Ease of use? Ergonomics? Enjoyable sound? You must have spent thousands on multiple Bose systems and are just here to justify your purchase.

It seems to me your argument is "well, I don't know anything about speakers but since this Bose system I just dropped a few thousand on was easy to install, looks good and sounds better than my television speakers, it's a good purchase." That is ridiculous. When it comes to home theater and speakers in general, shouldn't sound quality trump everything?

Bose cashes in on it's name and the fact that many people remain uninformed. I'd be interested to see the percentage of people that, once informed, would still be willing to pay the extreme premium for Bose despite such extreme inferiority in sound quality.

I will now wait for wilson_jay to "pwn" and "abuse" me. :rolleyes:

Nope, no affiliation ever with Bose or any entity that sells Bose. It really doesn't require any esoteric knowledge to duel the Bose bashing "brain trust" around here - just common sense and a sense of fair play.

Here's some great reading for you to exercise some of that self-proclaimed common sense:

http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

That, is a poorly written site filled with a substantial amount of misinformation. How many can you spot?

Exactly. They are out to make money! This is why all their comercials are aimed at old folks. Cmon, youve seen the wave radio spots. Old folks are dumb and have alot of extra cash. And to all those about to attack me for calling old folks dumb ask yourself how many of your grandparents could ever program their vcrs, set the clocks on the microwaves, or goodness gracious turn on a computer and make it do something! Bose goes after these people like flees on a dog! Its a simple product with 2 buttons and my god, it must sound good cause all those other old bastards are smiling so big I can see the denture cream! Dont be mad at bose. Be mad at GRANDMA!!! :D

but seriously, bose sucks, why? cause i said so. thats why.

I will ignore the old people part. It isn't worth commenting on. There is an industry problem that Bose is exploiting and I don't blame them one bit. There is plenty of opportunity to take them head on and there are a lot of companies that could. There should be many more quality choices in the HTIB game that emphasize ease of use and SQ. It needs plenty of consumer education (advertising / store merchandising) to make it happen. There are very few obvious alternatives to the average consumer. Most will look at the back of a typical entry level receiver and then run over to Bose rather than deal with that. It isn't stupidity that leads to that choice.

I have one of those 3-2-1 systems in a workout room. It works great for that application. It doesn't sound that great compared to my well treated listening / HT room, but so what. It doesn't sound like absolute crap either and I could appreciate the simplicity of the thing.

That, is a poorly written site filled with a substantial amount of misinformation. How many can you spot?

What part of that review is misinformation? Was it the el cheapo manilla paper speakers Bose uses, or the flimsy thin plastic speaker housing? Or the fact that Bose is eliminating over 30% of the recorded sound? Or maybe it was the part about Bose using the absolute lowest grade of particle board in their so-called "sub woofer"?? I could go on & on, buy it would be easier if you would take the time and actually read it. Instead of attacking the messenger, how about commenting on the facts? Please let everyone know exactly what you thought was not right.

That, is a poorly written site filled with a substantial amount of misinformation. How many can you spot?

I agree. While there are some valid points, the author hurts his credibility by talking about subwoofer woofer size in relation to "speed" (let's not get started...) and by claiming that only ~66% of a recording is reproduced in a system with 40hz-13.5khz response (as opposed to a 20hz-20khz response). Yes, in raw frequencies, I suppose that's true, but you're only really missing about 1 1/2 octaves, not 1/3 of the entire spectrum. Obviously that's still not ideal, but his "information" is misleading. I can understand the guy's frustration with Bose, and I am not in the least bit impressed with the "measurements", but I think he's misrepresented the results in a way that hurts his credibility tremendously. I'm sure there are more things than those I mentioned, but those just jumped out at me.

How old are you, really? I don't see you "abusing" anyone. Maybe you meant "amusing"...that's my feeling after reading your posts.

I will now wait for wilson_jay to "pwn" and "abuse" me. :rolleyes:
By your ridiculous name and worthlessness of your posts it looks as though you already abuse yourself. No need for me to pile on.

By your ridiculous name and worthlessness of your posts it looks as though you already abuse yourself. No need for me to pile on.

This thread really does suit you down to the ground. Like Bose your all talk and no substance.

It's a writing clarity problem that you have. Let's check your previous spew:

The rules of the game are changing with each of your posts - first it was the size of the speakers, and now it appears that the inclusion of a DVD player is the feature which makes the Bose systems your gold standard. OK, just to at least keep up the appearance of attempting to play by your rules:
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-ZkfyAkG2BX3/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?i=158DAVIS10
Granted, it's a bit over the $500 budget, but still, it's got to be a Bose-killer - it has much smaller speakers, a DVD player AND a 6.75" subwoofer with a whopping 150w. Sony has managed to 1-up Bose in every one of your prime requirement categories (including sounding even worse than Bose) and they did it for 1/3 the price! You must be ecstatic.

Here's a novel idea for the typical Bose customer - instead of spending $2000 on a Bose system in order to get "convenience", spend $1500 on a system capable of actually producing decent sound quality, then pay the Geek Squad $500 to install it.

Tag, you're it...
Reaching for straws aren't ya? That Sony system was posted a few pages back. I asked for comments on anyone who may have heard it and I don't recall any positive responses to confirm it's a Bose killer. How can it be better if the speakers are smaller? Wow, wish you bashers would be consistent. Looks like the logo is the issue for just about all of you. How dumb is that? (... he said to the people who call others "dumb" for buying a system that meets their needs, just because it has a Bose logo on it.)

Again, I'm not making the rules, just asking folks to back up their ridiculous assertions (like any $500 HTIB will be better than Bose). So far, no takers.

So, in billybob world, it looks like you have special powers to tell how a system sounds JUST BY LOOKING AT IT! I wonder what kind of drugs you have to take to do that!

In the real world, you can see a product's form-factor, by looking at it. Guess what? Form factor matters to a lot of people, and they can tell the difference between a small head unit and a full size receiver like the other system that was supposed to be a killer but didn't have the same functionality.

Or are you saying that other systems can provide fewer features for less money? Isn't that a given? No one's arguing that.

This thread really does suit you down to the ground. Like Bose your all talk and no substance.
It's not fun being talked down to is it? Glad I could give the bashers a look in the mirror.

Maybe the bashers should be nicer to the folks that come here looking for help with Bose instead of hurling insults and flippant, juvenile responses.

At least I provide substance to educate and add to the discussion, whereas they only spout the same circle-jerk phrases I noted in my OP.

The article does ramble on a bit but its not hard to find fault with Bose equipment. The very size and construction quality of the cubes and bass module will always mean heavy compromises to sound quality.

It's not fun being talked down to is it? Glad I could give the bashers a look in the mirror.

Maybe the bashers should be nicer to the folks that come here looking for help with Bose instead of hurling insults and flippant, juvenile responses

I don't think you talked down to anyone. You just threw some personal insults around which tends to lower your standing in the eye's of onlookers. Trying to defend bose on technical grounds is a lost cause - they're heavily flawed. Its hard not to bash them, they shouldn't be on the market for the price they are and with the claims they carry. We're enthusiasts on here after all so we expect more than the average person looking for little speakers that make sound and can be hid away.

But keep up the good fight. Don't forget about global warming and third world poverty.