Before you guys start pounding, I must confess to being a total speaker newbie.

Bose appears to be almost universally NOT recommended on this board.

For a product that is so popular in the mainstream, with what appears to be a decent range of products (cost wise)... Why does everyone dismiss them?

Where did you get the idea that they are decent? Who told you that? Cost wise they are a rip off, and offer low sound, poor components.

Search for Bose.. on most audio forums I think they will all say the same- overpriced, hyped up my advertising, poor sound, low quality components.

I am also a newbie here and have not yet decided on what speakers to get, although it won't be Bose. From what I have read, you can get Bose quality sound for much less $$, or far superior sound for the same amount you would spend for Bose.

Good luck,
Jerry

For a product that is so popular in the mainstream, with what appears to be a decent range of products (cost wise)... Why does everyone dismiss them?

So you are saying that McDonalds is good food? Budweiser is good beer?

Here is what you do.

Go to a store that sells Bose along with other audio equipment and actually compare the sound of Bose speakers to others that are in your budget and decide for yourself!

Nearly any $200-300 HTiB will match if not out perform the Blose Acoustimess systems that run in the thousands of dollars. There is a reason that Bose has their separate display-so you can't compare.

The gripe is that they've managed to convince so many that the are the best and what they charge for something that is likely under $100 to produce. If they were under $500 and advertising their size instead of performance no one would care.

"Go to a store that sells Bose along with other audio equipment and actually compare the sound of Bose speakers to others that are in your budget and decide for yourself!"

That's tricky to find. Most Bose diplays are set far away fom other speakers so people can't make the comparison. Another Bose marketing scam. So you won't be able to tell how unnatural and unrealistic Bose really sounds.

Why not bose...

Because I would never try to sell you a Kia Rio at a BMW M3s price/performance...and tell you it's the best thing you've ever driven.

That's why not Bose.

..but if you like Bose...I'll sell you the car to go along with it! ;) :p

Originally posted by Brian Shannon
Budweiser is good beer?


Brian,

I sincerely hope that you are not insinuating anything negative regarding Budweiser?

American beer tastes like shandy. Try a proper drink- Murphy's, Guiness, paint stripper etc ;-)

I convinced a couple a few weeks ago at a local Costco to go with a Pioneer system over a Bose system. They said that their friends had just gotten a Bose system and hadn't put it together and they were thinking about getting one too. I finally convinced them to get the Pioneer system and they went away skeptical, but happy.

I ran into them last weekend and they started thanking me. I had no idea who they were at first, but then they explained that they got their system together and were much more pleased with how their system sounded for less money than their friend's Bose system, which they said sounded terrible.

I'm going to have to agree with everyone here. I can't tell you the amount of times people have told me that they either purchased a Bose system or were going to. I always say, "what made you decide on Bose". Everyone states, "because they are the best". Poke a little bit further and you will find that they have never even listened to them or bothered to listen to other speakers. I think Bose makes a good product for what it is, but for what you pay for them you could have an absolutely incredible sounding system.

A local HiFi shop in my area, Surround Sounds, doesn't sell Bose but they did purchase their top-of-the-line Acoustimass system to allow customers to do direct comparisons. I thought it was a neat idea. Customers can compare similarly priced systems at the flick of a switch and hear for themselves why Bose is so bad.

Bose, at the time of their inception actually made decent speakers for the money. They've since changed their focus towards perfecting the HTIB system and their marketing department. They stress that through investing heavily in R&D they're able to acheive superior sound through their tiny little devices. I'd bet the spend twice as much on marketing as they do on any R&D.

To the person that doesn't know any better, nor cares to know any better, Bose is a "name" they can "depend" on. Sure it'll sound better (slightly) than the two little speakers plopped into most TV's and they have a high WAF but anyone that claims to buy them because of their sound quality has simply become another victim of their marketing campaign.

When I first got into HiFi about 8 years ago I was looking at the Bose 201 for my first real set of speakers. The best advice I was ever given was that a pair of Paradigm Titans would blow them away. That dealer was right.

It's not just on this board, it's any audio board out there that you'll find numerous reasons NOT to buy Bose. They're overpriced and unflexible systems that can be trounced by buying seperates for the same $$.

Listen for yourself with your own music and you'll hear the difference.

Bill

Originally posted by fatbottom
American beer tastes like shandy. Try a proper drink- Murphy's, Guiness, paint stripper etc ;-)

Hah the last time I went to the UK, all the young people were drinking Bud :P

I was drinking Samuel Smiths of course, but ....

You guy's have to remember that not everybody is an audiophile. Bose is a great idea for people who want a fairly good (okay that is a stretch) sounding setup that is high on the WAF, is a complete setup so they don't have to get confused with what reciever or amp or dvd or whatever they need. They buy one unit and it works.

It's a brilliant idea and marketing plan. I think most HiFi stores don't mind having them in the market place because it takes care of those customers that really have no idea what they are doing and don't really care.

I have some friends that have a bose acoustimass setup and they can't tell the difference between their setup and a 10k setup. They really can't and they don't care. Those are bose customers, doesn't make them a bad person, they might be a brain surgeon that doesn't have time for all of "this" that we do here and just wants a small setup that sounds good to him.

most computer speakers [ the pricier ones] with their built in BASH amps will outperform bose.
http://www.intellexual.net/boseframes.html

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=265328&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=340462

Also, the store listening rooms, for Bose speaker setups, are usually well insulated and have some pretty nice acoustics. This will more than likely not be the case at the customers house. In comparison, the other speaker setups at the stores are more than likely in rooms which are not configured in the same way as the Bose room... So, guess what? At the store, the Bose speakers sound pretty good... But in such situations one is clearly not comparing apples to apples, it is more like a peanuts to apples comparison.

One thing that I must say Bose has going for them is the fact that their speakers are tiny and attractive looking. You can pretty much place them anywhere without being too obvious. It is sad, but some folks prefer good looks over sound quality. This is probably true of the average customer who does not care nor has the time to research a good set of speakers. And then, there is also the wife factor...

Hobbieman

I currently have a Bose Lifestyle 35 System.

I thought I had the best system untill I heard a friends Klipsch system. It litteraly blew me away. Appearently I bought advertising.

Needless to say, I am now in the process of selling my Bose to someone else who wants the best that advertising has to offer. I kick myself for spending the same money on the Bose that I could have on an M&K THX750 system (That's what I'm replacing it with.)

The Bose system is nice provided the following: You are looking for an all-in one system. Decent sound from such small speaker package. Form over function. You have a small room with hard surfaces. Bragging rights to others/friends that you have Bose and most importantly...cost is your least concern.

I, for one, am getting sick and tired of all the negative things people continue to say about Bose. My experience has been completely satisfactory.

For example, their little enclosures are first class and I have found them exactly the right size to prop up the bent leg on my Christmas tree stand. My tree has never been so vertical and stable.

For another, I got a Bose Wave Radio and found that it, in fact, does very well in waves. My kids use it as a float at the beach. What other speaker line can make this claim?

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA
Hah the last time I went to the UK, all the young people were drinking Bud :P

I was drinking Samuel Smiths of course, but ....

That's because Bud outside of the US is really not that bad...... the reason: it is made by other breweries and it tastes virtually nothing like Budweiser here in the US!!.... I can actually drink a Bud when I am at home in the Maritimes on vacation... it's certainly not my first choice, but it is stomachable.... but I vomit after even *trying* to drink the same thing here in the US... vile dreck it is...

as for Bose... I think we're all a little envious of the fact that they can get away with making 1000% profit on a piece of junk that people honestly believe sounds good.... I know I'd love to be able to markup the speakers I build for friends that much !! :)

I will tell you why I was considering Bose.

Without knowing alot about audio, I figured Bose was a safe bet to get a decent sounding system without doing much research. Its very intimidating when there are so many choices. I think that's why people buy Bose. They feel its safe, sounds good enough, and they don't have to listen to a sales person explain differences that may or may not hear.

But I get it now. Basically, not worth the money Bose charges.

What is a good alternative? $500 - $1000 for a 5 or 6 speaker system that sounds great but is not huge. Looks good but sounds great. My guess is that might be hard to answer.

Originally posted by blkwrxwgn
You guy's have to remember that not everybody is an audiophile. Bose is a great idea for people who want a fairly good (okay that is a stretch) sounding setup that is high on the WAF, is a complete setup so they don't have to get confused with what reciever or amp or dvd or whatever they need. They buy one unit and it works.

It's a brilliant idea and marketing plan. I think most HiFi stores don't mind having them in the market place because it takes care of those customers that really have no idea what they are doing and don't really care.

I have some friends that have a bose acoustimass setup and they can't tell the difference between their setup and a 10k setup. They really can't and they don't care. Those are bose customers, doesn't make them a bad person, they might be a brain surgeon that doesn't have time for all of "this" that we do here and just wants a small setup that sounds good to him.

The is similar to making an argument that the emperor is not a fashion model, he likes his new clothes, so that's all that should matter.

Bose is almost universally despised among audiophiles *nowadays*. However it's interesting that decades ago (before Bose became a popular household name) how many of those golden-eared audiophiles loved the 901.

That said, here are a some interesting non-Bose options for 5.1 speaker systems around $1k (or slightly above):

Axiom M2i/VP100/QS4, combined with a Hsu STF-2 subwoofer. See http://www.axiomaudio.com/epicmidi.html and www.hsuresearch.com. Pro: tremendous value for the money, great sound. Con: mail order only (can't live audition), speakers larger than the micro type.

5 Mirage Omnisat Micros, combined with Hsu STF-2 sub. See http://www.miragespeakers.com/omnistat_mic.shtml. Pro: looks very cool, pretty good sound, very small package. Con: sound possibly not as good as Axiom (but still better than Bose).

Panasonic SC-HT900 home theater in a box. See http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId=11251&catalogId=11005&itemId=64104&catGroupId=11136&modelNo=SC-HT900&surfModel=SC-HT900. Pro: looks cool, includes DVD player. Good user reviews. Con: sound probably not as good as 1st two (but hey, it's only 500 bucks).

There are many options that compare to Bose in the Micro category. Here are just a few companies. If you do some shopping you will easily put together a nice system under 1k. If you like Bose by all means buy them. It is whatever makes you happy.

Speakers

Tannoy FX5.1
Atlantic Technology T70
Harman Kardon HTKS 12
Energy Take 5.2
Infinity Entra or primus
Polk audio
JBL
NHT

Receivers

Panasonic
JVC
Harmon Kardon
Yamaha
Kenwood
Etc.

Hope this helps

Bob

My roommate a few years back had Bose 301's. He thought they rocked. I picked up some Wharfedale Valdus 400's for about $200 less for a pair that simply made him want to cry. He said it made him sick, that he wasted all that money on a set of speakers that he cannot even listen to anymore without getting FURIOUS. To say the difference was night and day is a GROSS understatement. Even worse, another friend has Bose 901's and my little Wharfedale Valdus 400's put them to shame. Until you hear the difference in person, what I'm saying won't be too convincing, so you really have to try them out for yeurself, pereferably in your own home as the Circuit City (or any electronics mega-store) showroom is a poor environment for demonstrating anything as most of their equipment is simply hooked up incorrectly to begin with....

Some of the Bose Acoustimass home systems aren't bad sounding, but not for the price. If you have a relative with a lot of money and you don't want to spend a week over there helping them set the thing up, tell them to drop $2999 on the high-end Bose home theater boxed system. If you are buying for yourself, part it out, save $1000 and get a MUCH better system.

Bose, at the time of their inception actually made decent speakers for the money. They've since changed their focus towards perfecting the HTIB system and their marketing department. They stress that through investing heavily in R&D they're able to acheive superior sound through their tiny little devices. I'd bet the spend twice as much on marketing as they do on any R&D.
They never made anything good. Their speakers of yesterday were gimmick laiden. Audio enthusiasist always knew the kind of stuff they made. It is only when they went to HTIB that the the HT crowd started to find out that they are a scame.

FYI, Bose is not even on all those audio enthusiasist's radar screen anymore.

Bose is almost universally despised among audiophiles *nowadays*. However it's interesting that decades ago (before Bose became a popular household name) how many of those golden-eared audiophiles loved the 901.

Who loved the 901? Not JGH of Stereophile when he first reviewed it back in the early 70's. Anyone else that praised it were lead ear reviewers.

http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/425/index.html

Excerpt:
If we were to judge the 901 in terms of the best sound available, then, we would say that it produces a more realistic semblance of natural ambience than any other speaker system, but we would characterize it as unexceptional in all other respects. It is ideal for rock enthusiasts to whom sheer sonic impact is of paramount importance, and for classical listeners who want the next best thing to ambient stereo without the cost and the bother of rear-channel add-ons. However, we doubt that the 901 will appeal to perfectionists who have developed a taste for subtleties of detail and timbre.

This is an entertaining thread. :D I agree that Bose is overpriced for what amounts to mediocre speakers. Let me add a few Bose stories as well.

My college roommate from several years ago used to brag about how his uncle's multi-thousand $ Bose HTS sounded so good. Well, when compared to TV speakers they sound incredible! :rolleyes: I told him his uncle wasted his money. I even listened to them, and while they sounded pretty good, I had nothing to compare them w/ (except w/ stock TV speakers).

Recently, another friend's father bought a Bose Lifestyle system. I went to his house to check it out. Again, it sounds very good when compared to TV speakers or their old PoS bookshelf speakers they used to have. Even a $200 Costco/Wal-mart HTIB speaker set will sound much better than TV speakers. When my friend played the "Star Wars" DVD (pod racing scene), the bass was so feeble! What a waste of $. His father only bought it b/c he got 30% off the price (store going out of business sale). I say he still got ripped off by 50%.

My car was marketed as having a "premium Bose sound system". Although I really like my car, I don't like the audio at all. The head unit is vastly underpowered (although Bose probably didn't make that, I'm not sure). But the speakers aren't great and the bass, even w/ the stock Bose "woofer" in the trunk, is weak and pathetic. The best thing I did w/ its sound system was to spend another $250 and get a powered 10" Infinity sub (BassLink).

To sum it up, it's no coincidence that "Bose" rhymes w/ "blows". Bose blows! :mad:

Originally posted by PewterTA
Why not bose...

..but if you like Bose...I'll sell you the car to go along with it! ;) :p

Many carcompanies already do that with "high end" Bose systems.... :D

Originally posted by lwang
[B]....Who loved the 901? Not JGH of Stereophile when he first reviewed it back in the early 70's. Anyone else that praised it were lead ear reviewers....http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/425/index.html
"...I must say that I have never heard a speaker system in my own home which could surpass, or even equal, the Bose 901 for overall realism of sound." -Julian Hirsch, Stereo Review

Actually your quoted reference is typical of reviews in that period. It speaks quite favorably of certain aspects of the 901, which differs greatly from the near-universal condemnation today -- that was my point.

Julian Hirsch was also the guy who said that all electronics sounded identical as long as they were not clipping, etc. Not to start a war about that topic, but it is hardly an 'audiophile' viewpoint, and never was. Julian Hirsch revews were good for specs (testing power output vs. advertised, etc). I never put much stock in his listening.

enigma

The thing I don't like about bose is that in almost all of their displays the speakers are right on top of you, and usually cranked up to a very high level. This gives the consumer the idea that speakers are full and and have a good soundstage, when it's just the opposite. Almost any speaker will sound good, in a crouded store, when the speakers are right on top of you and cranked up so loud they are distorted.

I will say Bose is good if you are looking at them from a cosmetic stand-point. They blend in well to your living room decor. That is why you see so many families buying them. They aren't really interested in high-fidelity audiophile sound, so long as the sound is loud, and the speakers blend into their living room.

I don't want to bash bose, and I realize that my speakers, which are Polk towers, are not exactly what you would call high end speakers either, but atleast I didn't spend over 2k for them either.

Originally posted by ssangste
That's because Bud outside of the US is really not that bad...... the reason: it is made by other breweries and it tastes virtually nothing like Budweiser here in the US!!.... I can actually drink a Bud when I am at home in the Maritimes on vacation... it's certainly not my first choice, but it is stomachable.... but I vomit after even *trying* to drink the same thing here in the US... vile dreck it is...

Easy there, trigger, you're about to put a burr under my saddle. I happen to work for the company that brews what you refer to as "vile dreck". FYI, Budweiser is brewed identical at all breweries throughout the United States and at their contract brewing partners throughout the world. The only difference being water source. I really don't take too kindly to you badmouthing such an established product in the beer industry. Budweiser here in the states has a very crisp, clean, refreshing taste to it, and while it may not meet everybody's taste preferences (similar to speakers), it doesn't deserve the criticism you just gave it. Budweiser is brewed under some of the tightest quality controls in manufacturing (brewing), and use some of the finest ingredients you'll find at any price point. You have no idea of the amount of quality that goes into every serving of Budweiser.

I do not mean to hijack this thread, but at the same time I can't stand around and do nothing.

Is this Bose Anonymous?

Hello, everyone. My name is Larry, and there is a Bose-owner in my family. (All: "Hello, Larry!") Here is my story:

It all started last summer, when my sister, after watching a couple of movies here, decided she was ready to take the HT plunge. Naturally, she asked my advice. Since she lives within two hours' drive away, I offered to visit her the next weekend and escort her to a couple of good HT stores around her home.

Then, two days later, it happened; I got the dreaded phone call:

"Larry, I was at the mall today, and I saw the system I want! It's so cute, and the salesman offered me a great discount!"

"Let me guess: Bose?" I gasped.

"Yes, how did you know? Anyway, it's just what I want. They look cool, and they sound so good!"

"Jody, I'm coming down in three days; just wait for me."

"No, I have to get them tomorrow; the guy said it's a $3100 system, but he'll sell it to me for $1700 if I get the money by tomorrow. What a deal!"

I responded, "It's not even a $1700 system. Please wait for me!"

I went on to explain how they build a room around the speakers, and it won't sound anything like that in her room, etc., but it was no use; she was determined. *Heavy sigh!*

I went ahead with my visit that weekend, and endured a hot attic to install them in her family room, three along one wall (L, C, & R), and the other two on the opposire wall (LR & RR). Then ran the wires to the "bass" module, and then to the (the B&O wannabe) receiver.

"Okay, Sis, it's time to move the TV out of the corner."

"What do you mean, 'move the TV'? I like it in the corner." *Heavy sigh #2*

I tried, I really tried, but to no avail. She wouldn't let me move the TV to the space below the center speaker! So, it stays in the corner. The TV is left of the left speaker!

Okay, time to turn it on. Power on, adjust a thing or two, and stand back and listen. What do I hear next?

"Why doesn't it sound like yours?"

I cried!

I need a group hug!

Budweiser here in the states has a very crisp, clean, refreshing taste to it

Oh my lord, when I hear that I can't help but laugh.......I hear Chef Boy-Ar-Dee makes great pasta. Budweiser is shameful representation of what real beer is. They are the only company I know that can take the four natural beer ingredients added with rice and tannins(A/B's claim), and screw it up. Congrats on the marketing success though, to an uneducated public. Let em drink it, more good stuff for the people who know!

You have no idea of the amount of quality that goes into every serving of Budweiser.
And neither does your drinkers cause they could care less...........

I'm gonna go enjoy a Czechvar, you know, the REAL Budweiser, before A/B's lawyers stole the name?

Sorry this thread is goin off.......I can't help myself either

DJ_JonnyV wrote:

I really don't take too kindly to you badmouthing such an established product in the beer industry.

While I personally can't stand Bose, do you suppose there might be someone out there who makes a living selling them or who just spent major money on "such an established product in the" speaker industry? Criticism is part and parcel of forum discussions. Call off the (Clydesdale) horses! :)

The target Bose customer isn't trying to get the beswt sound for the money, or even trying to get a certain quality for the lowest price possible. They are merely trying to get this "surround sound" they have heard of in the easiest manner possible with the least visible intrusion on their room.

Most of them are willing to settle for almost any sound that betters what comes out of their TV set. Heck we even have some friends who had their Bose front and back speakers reversed and didn't even realize it until we pointed it out.

The other point folks need to recognize is that in the Bose factory stores the customer experiences about as pleasant an experience as I have ever encountered in many years of buying audio gear. None of the typical high-end BS like "what are your goals", no trashing of your current components, just a lot of enthusiastiac sales reps eager to show off something they truley believe in. I have a Bose store on my way to Monterey and stop in several times a year just to see what's up. Except for the sound it has always been enjoyable.

As an alternative the Rocket ELT system sells for only $900 and includes 5 speakers plus a subwoofer. Sounds better than any system anywhere near the price I've ever heard. And paired with a cheap Denon reciever it sounds way better than a $3,500 Bose system. With a 30 day money back deal from AV123 it's hard to go wrong.

You know what, I started typing up a reply laying it on the line, but this forum is about audio/video gear, and I'm really not looking to get into a pissing contest with somebody because of their ignorance here.

My father was more than eager to spend $1200 or so on a Bose 5.1 speaker set earlier this year, but I convinced him to hold off. And now he's having a hard time justifying spending $600-1000 for a non-Bose 5.1/6.1 speaker set. Go figure. :rolleyes:

He, like so many others, equate Bose as the Lexus of speakers. Sometimes, price is not proportional to quality, which the mass market fails to understand. :(

Originally posted by jdm1
"...I must say that I have never heard a speaker system in my own home which could surpass, or even equal, the Bose 901 for overall realism of sound." -Julian Hirsch, Stereo Review

Actually your quoted reference is typical of reviews in that period. It speaks quite favorably of certain aspects of the 901, which differs greatly from the near-universal condemnation today -- that was my point.

Your quoted reference from lead ears proves my point.

JGH review specifies it is good for non-audiophiles:

The 901's veiling tendency will not appeal much to audio perfectionists with amplifiers that don't add hardness to the sound, and who can feed these clean, quiet program material. But it will be a definite boon to most hi-fi buffs, for it makes the speakers unusually tolerant of the hardness of typical solid-state electronica and the distortion from imperfectly tracked discs.

Originally posted by Larry Fine
Is this Bose Anonymous?

Hello, everyone. My name is Larry, and there is a Bose-owner in my family. (All: "Hello, Larry!") Here is my story:

It all started last summer, when my sister, after watching a couple of movies here, decided she was ready to take the HT plunge. Naturally, she asked my advice. Since she lives within two hours' drive away, I offered to visit her the next weekend and escort her to a couple of good HT stores around her home.

Then, two days later, it happened; I got the dreaded phone call:

"Larry, I was at the mall today, and I saw the system I want! It's so cute, and the salesman offered me a great discount!"

"Let me guess: Bose?" I gasped.

"Yes, how did you know? Anyway, it's just what I want. They look cool, and they sound so good!"

"Jody, I'm coming down in three days; just wait for me."

"No, I have to get them tomorrow; the guy said it's a $3100 system, but he'll sell it to me for $1700 if I get the money by tomorrow. What a deal!"

I responded, "It's not even a $1700 system. Please wait for me!"

I went on to explain how they build a room around the speakers, and it won't sound anything like that in her room, etc., but it was no use; she was determined. *Heavy sigh!*

I went ahead with my visit that weekend, and endured a hot attic to install them in her family room, three along one wall (L, C, & R), and the other two on the opposire wall (LR & RR). Then ran the wires to the "bass" module, and then to the (the B&O wannabe) receiver.

"Okay, Sis, it's time to move the TV out of the corner."

"What do you mean, 'move the TV'? I like it in the corner." *Heavy sigh #2*

I tried, I really tried, but to no avail. She wouldn't let me move the TV to the space below the center speaker! So, it stays in the corner. The TV is left of the left speaker!

Okay, time to turn it on. Power on, adjust a thing or two, and stand back and listen. What do I hear next?

"Why doesn't it sound like yours?"

I cried!

I need a group hug!

im angry after hearin larrys story, somthin needs 2 be done about boze

Originally posted by im timmy
im angry after hearin larrys story, somthin needs 2 be done about boze
Good luck trying to organize a Bose boycott. :eek:

Using the standard way of assessing quality and customer satisfaction such as JD Powers etc, Bose is ranked extremely high. If many of these people bought Bose due to marketing Hype, they cannot be happy with it forever. Looking at the top 100 innovations as reported by Popular science ( I think) , Bose's wave radio technology ranks pretty good. Bose's professional (auditoria) sound systems are exceptional. Look here (http://www.bose.com/controller;jsessionid=1yEcsGv9XR16ftlvuMKrmgCZvFum23VmYXJS0J k8lonlPz7oLT7L!-1306527806?event=VIEW_STATIC_PAGE_EVENT&url=/automotive/vehicles/index.jsp&pageName=/automotive/bose_difference/index.jsp) for all the top of the line automobiles that use Bose. Their noice cancelling headphones seem to be the industry leader.

Hence, we must conclude that Bose is not bad because it is Bose as some people may want to picture. Many prefer Bose for their own reasons. For the life of me I cannot figure out why many prefer a certain brand of automobiles over others, even if numbers based logic shows otherwise.

Many bash Bose because it is the "norm" the "thing to do" in a forum like this. For many, the title "audiophile" does not fit unless you bash Bose.

Bose is overpriced and has a lot of market hype may be, but just plain bashing without logic is not corerct.

I bought a Bose pair 12 years ago, and I still use it. I have since joined forums such as this and learned alot and to look for specifics when buying HT stuff. I find better value with Brands such as Acoustic research etc and buy them instead of a Bose. If I'm able to get a pair of Bose 901 for a good deal, I'll stiil consider it in my choice.

peace!
:)

I have to admit, as much as I detest my old pair of 901s, that in-headrest speaker thing seems pretty damn cool.

That said, does anyone else find it ironic that they have an explanation of psychoacoustics on their webpage?

Originally posted by shankar
...Many bash Bose because it is the "norm" the "thing to do" in a forum like this. For many, the title "audiophile" does not fit unless you bash Bose...
:) Excellent points. You often see audiophiles complaining Bose is overpriced, over hyped, a marketing scam, that they charge $1000s for something that costs vastly less to make, etc, etc, etc.

It's ironic some of those same audiophiles strongly believe in ultra-quality, hugely expensive speaker cables. There's a stronger case that *those* are overpriced, over hyped, a marketing scam, etc, than for Bose. To those audiophiles directing potential Bose purchasers to more cost effective alternatives, I say follow your own advice and ditch your fancy speaker cables for 12 gauge zip wire :)

shankar,

I see what you mean, but I do think most of the evidence you cited are just symptoms of the hype. (E.g., people who are convinced Bose is best.)

JD Powers, for example, is a survey. If someone thinks there Bose is great-- and it doesn't BREAK-- then it will get high marks on JD Powers.

Car companies choose Bose not because of how the system sounds, but because it is a brand people recognize as high quality.. again, due to hype.

I think the definition of a "con" has something to do with the people who are being ripped off NEVER EVEN KNOWING that they have been ripped off. Someone who has been successfully conned, therefore, is in some sense a satisfied customer.

Aaron

I don't sell Bose. I don't own Bose. I've never recommended Bose. However...

I do respect Bose. They absolutely do have some damned intelligent engineers over there. They were the first to do a lot of different things in the speaker world. Things like making one stupid driver work in all kinds of configurations and uses (1st the 4", then the 2"). Making that same one stupid driver insanely reliable. Utilizing the efficiency of vented enclosures to the absolute maximum. Geez, who (outside of us speaker builders) even "heard" of "bandpass" subwoofers till that crappy little acoustimass thing showed up? Then all of a sudden, Bandpasses were everywhere. In the electronics side of things, they're not quite as successful, but still very competent. That dumb wave radio for example, that's absolutely no big deal acoustically speaking, but nobody was making a radio that sounded worth a crap, so Bose said, "why not?", and built a decent labrinth enclosure for a measely little speaker that costs about 50 cents. Presto! Bass! Stick a little real power behind it and it becomes fairly "strong" bass. And there you have it - instant sales and world wide recognition that they're the smartest damn company on the planet. Their remote control on their lifestyle systems works flawlessly (for what it is) too. People really like that because they sure can't figure their stupid remotes out for anything else they own. So, yes, Bose is waaaaayyyyyyyyyyyy over priced for what you get compared to others, but they earned it, folks.

Why not bose?

Here's my $1592.00 system (including shipping):

HK AVR525
JBL S412PII mains
JBL S38II surrounds
JBL S38II back surrounds
JBL ScenterII center

Shop around. Maybe not Upper Crust to some but they suit me just fine, especially for the price.

Happy New Year to ALL!!!

"No highs, no lows, gotta be BOSE" any more questions?

Try the Logitech Z-680's in my humble opinion they smash anything Bose has to offer. I got mine for $260.00 off the internet. 500 watts with a "Real Sub" and similar in size as Bose.
Understand these will still not due for true audiophiles, but as a second system in the living room were the wife has more decorating control these fit nicely.

Review
http://gear.ign.com/articles/375/375816p1.html

I'm just speaking from experience and I'll say it again that the Bose "Richbass Woofer" in my car absolutely blows. Bose should be ashame that they put their name on that speaker. I took that woofer apart and almost fell over laughing when I saw the joke of an amp and the cheap tiny paper speaker that were hiding behind the speaker case.

My friend's parents' Bose Lifestyle sounds good b/c of the surround set up. But where was the bass? You still have to buy another subwoofer on top of that Bass Module/amp that comes w/ the package. What a pity. :mad:

But I agree that Bose was the first to come up w/ an attractive sub + sat speaker package. Then again, RCA was one of the first to come up w/ a television set and they no longer rank in the upper echelon of TV brand names. Will Bose's reputation follow the same downward spiral? :confused: Time will tell.

I was given a Bose AM10 as a hand-me-down. It was a step up from the crappy speakers that my old Sony HTIB was. I could hear a much improved sound on HT and an improvement on music as well. However, I now have a Denon 3803 that I purchased due to all the praise I've seen on this board. I currently don't have the capital to invest in a new speaker system. My girlfriend is moving in with me in about six months and she has a nice 15 inch JBL sub to add to the system. Since the Bose are not truely 5.1 can I simply add the JBL to the sub output and expect to still have decent timbre matching? Or does timbre matching not matter much in the lower frequencies? Is there anything I could do to the Acoustimass module to eek out more bass - like stuffing the enclosure behind the speaker with foam? I guess what I'm asking is are there any mods I can do with the system to try to improve it until I can save up the funds to purchase the Paradigms that I really want? I already shortened the 10 miles of speaker cable that came with the system and used MC banana plugs into the 3803.

BTW - I've used the Avia disc to check the frequency response and the biggest hole occurs at about 200Hz. By increasing the bass on the 3803 I was able to get the volume back up at about 120Hz and down to about 35 then the sound output dimishes quickly. I don't have a SPL meter yet and was hoping to get one for Christmas but my girlfriend got me a 9800 ATI video card instead. Bless her heart. Once I get it I will take some measurements before and after adding the sub and I will post the results.

Thanks for your patience with yet another newbie.

Danho, you've got one cool g/f! :D She got a 15" sub? Damn, so size is indeed everything as far as women's desires go. :o

Anyway, I don't think you should have a problem to mix-and-match a non-Bose subwoofer (your g/f's JBL) w/ your Bose "5.05" system. Bass is non-directional, esp. at that low frequency (below a couple hundred hertz), so as long as you have the JBL hooked up to the subwoofer part of the receiver, you should be good to go. Just make sure you set your crossover freq. on the JBL to be pretty low, so that the Bose sub can do some work. Or maybe you'd be better off trying to bypass the Acoustimass module altogether (and set the crossover pretty high, like above 100 Hz). LOL!

I don't know where she got the big sub. I think her ex talked her into it. He must of been compensating for something ! LOL! She's got that sub plugged into her Sony receiver (I hate Sony) with some big ass no name brand towers that sound horrible. I think they were bought out of the back of a van in a dark alley.

Would it work okay to hook the Bose speakers up directly to the receiver instead of going through the module? I thought I read somewhere that was not a good idea.

When I do get my hands on her sub (uh, no pun intended!) do I use the crossover on the sub or on the 3803? Which crossover is usually better? Is a steep curve better than a shallow one for HT? I am new to home audio but I used to be a car audio guy over 10 years ago when it was still pretty new. Did lots of installs and tweaking then with a RTA. I knew about bandpass enclosures in that environment a long time ago. I never thought about using it in home audio though. At that time I used my Hitachi 8-track home stereo to hook up my mono Electrohome VCR. I thought that rocked! HA!

Originally posted by AGE
shankar,

I see what you mean, but I do think most of the evidence you cited are just symptoms of the hype. (E.g., people who are convinced Bose is best.)

JD Powers, for example, is a survey. If someone thinks there Bose is great-- and it doesn't BREAK-- then it will get high marks on JD Powers.

Car companies choose Bose not because of how the system sounds, but because it is a brand people recognize as high quality.. again, due to hype.


Aaron, I tend to agree with you here. Many rate Japanese vehicles "higher" than American vehicles, even though they get more for the money with the big 3. The reason is exactly what you said. They feel they made a good purchase and the vehicles are reliable. Same could apply to Bose. Highly innovative, looks cool and works forever. What else does an average consumer want? That is not just pure hype. Hype can only let you survive for a small time. Hype sells the made for TV infomercial items such as exercise machines and the pasta cooker, while they are the only ones in the market . On a highly priced item, hype can not be the only reason.


I think the definition of a "con" has something to do with the people who are being ripped off NEVER EVEN KNOWING that they have been ripped off. Someone who has been successfully conned, therefore, is in some sense a satisfied customer.

Again, agreed. However, I wonder, how many of the Klipsch, Axiom, SVS, Monster users would fall into this category??

Originally posted by Danho
I don't know where she got the big sub. I think her ex talked her into it. He must of been compensating for something ! LOL! She's got that sub plugged into her Sony receiver (I hate Sony) with some big ass no name brand towers that sound horrible. I think they were bought out of the back of a van in a dark alley.

Would it work okay to hook the Bose speakers up directly to the receiver instead of going through the module? I thought I read somewhere that was not a good idea.

When I do get my hands on her sub (uh, no pun intended!) do I use the crossover on the sub or on the 3803? Which crossover is usually better? Is a steep curve better than a shallow one for HT? I am new to home audio but I used to be a car audio guy over 10 years ago when it was still pretty new. Did lots of installs and tweaking then with a RTA. I knew about bandpass enclosures in that environment a long time ago. I never thought about using it in home audio though. At that time I used my Hitachi 8-track home stereo to hook up my mono Electrohome VCR. I thought that rocked! HA!

It wasn't a White Van was it? Ha ha.

From what I've been told do not hook up bose speakers directly to the amp because you then remove the crossover from the sytem and they will sound like crap. I don't know but that's what I've been told when I said go for it! hee hee.

Definitely use the crossover on the amp instead of the sub, if the sub has a switch to bypass the crossover, do it.

Looking for Bose alternatives. The Secrets of Home Theatre and HIFI reviews have a HTIB roudup and comparison. Any of these would be better than Bose for less money

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_4/htib-roundup-intro-12-2003.html

Look at the first system. Onkyo DD ES, DTS EX 6.1 receiver 100 wpc x 6 with DVD player, 6 speakers and sub $800. Each speaker has 2 x 5.25 inch drivers and 1 x 1 inch tweeter.

Actually most of the "Bose" car systems aren't Bose at all. My 2002 Nissan Maxima had a "Bose" system. Upon replacing the horrid sounding thing, I noticed that "Clarion" was the manufacturer of the radio andall of the speakers with exception of the "Bose" subwoofer which just sounded awefull.

Originally posted by virus
Actually most of the "Bose" car systems aren't Bose at all. My 2002 Nissan Maxima had a "Bose" system. Upon replacing the horrid sounding thing, I noticed that "Clarion" was the manufacturer of the radio andall of the speakers with exception of the "Bose" subwoofer which just sounded awefull.
I've been informed by members in my car club that my alleged Bose head unit is also Clarion. But I know for sure that my car's stock "woofer' (or should I call it a "wimper"?) is Bose. And it blows. :mad:

The Clarion/Bose head unit, while it looks nice and integrates nicely w/ the rest of the dash, is extremely underpowered. And although it has an in-dash 6-disc CD changer, which is convenient, the friggin thing doesn't even display track time of a CD! :rolleyes:

Clarion and Delco make stock car stereos and small amps. Rockford Fosgate outsources some of their stuff to Delco. The electronics produced by both of these companies are durable and satisfactory, but the speakers are not as good as what the aftermarket offers. The Lexus system is an exception.

I've got a new Mustang GT and it has the Mach 460 in it. I think it is made by Alpine. It sounds pretty good for a stocker. Actually it is the best sounding stock stereo I've ever heard, and that includes my boss's exotic cars (M-B, Jag, etc.). The only downfall the Mach has is that the upper frequencies are kind of weak. I want to replace the fronts with a better separate set; I'm considering Focals as I really like their sound. I might add a small sub and that is about it. I don't want to dump too much into the car as I am saving for new home speakers!

True, Alpine still makes some head units for stock setups. Have you tried Parts Express for raw drivers? You could match some Scan-Speak tweets and some Dynavox mids and get their crossover network, add a Eminence sub and a Lanzar amp, or dual amps (HP/LP). They also have stiffening caps for cheap.

Thanks for the tip. I'll definately check them out when the time comes to do the upgrade. Maybe in early spring before the g/f moves in and watches what I spend my money on. ;)

Originally posted by hometheaterguy
Clarion and Delco make stock car stereos and small amps. Rockford Fosgate outsources some of their stuff to Delco. The electronics produced by both of these companies are durable and satisfactory, but the speakers are not as good as what the aftermarket offers.

Rockford Fosgate now OEM's quite a few radios for Nissan vehicles. But the majority of OEM radios are Delco and Clarion.

The Lexus system is an exception.


Volvo's with factory Dynaudio systems are also an exception.

I lost respect for Bose during the time I owned my 2002 Acura TL. It is a Bose system with a weak-assed bass module. It was way too bright, and low frequencies were muddy. When I recently looked at speakers, I had sense to stay away from Bose. After auditioning for 3 months, I instead bought Onix Rocket ELTs and am impressed with this sub-$1k system.

Danho, I read on Edmunds that the Mach 460 stereo system that comes w/ some Mustangs got rated as top 5 of all stock car systems. :)

Rockford Fosgate now OEM's quite a few radios for Nissan vehicles. But the majority of OEM radios are Delco and Clarion.

Take out a RF radio, it says Delco on it. Delco makes Rockford decks. How do I know? I worked for Rockford Corp. for years.

I will tell you now that I just made a Bose recommendation......

Here's the scoop. My uncle is getting close to being "hard of hearing"...(as the rest of us, sitting with our SPL meters, scratch our heads). His main concern was being able to hear the dialog. I suppose when you don't hear much; bullet jackets dropping to the right rear is not that important.

After a little input from my aunt...small speakers were a must. I think the quote was "you can hear 'em if you need to, but them things better not get in my way".

Anyways....after taking him to several B&M high-fi, and the "nation wides"; He thought the Bose sounded best to him.....I couldn't disagree.

So I got him an Accoustimass 5.1, a Panasonic xr-45 receiver, and a Panasonic s55s DVD player. He already had a Panasonic VCR and Panasonic 32" tv...so the remote was extremely easy to set up and operate.

The best thing I can say about the system is that my uncle liked it. I think it was good enough for movies...and the dialog was very clear.

I tried setting the system up with an RC spl meter and my test tones, but it was hopeless. I eventually set the system to where he could hear his favorite movie "The Outlaw, Josse Wales" the way he wanted to.

I tried to listen to some music through the system; it made me want to hear my Paradigms......

I will say that my uncle is VERY satisfied. He can hear dialog well, the speakers are small enough to keep my aunt from getting "fired-up", and "Paul Harvey is alway talking about them".

Other than that, I have no experience with Bose

Originally posted by coach
The best thing I can say about the system is that my uncle liked it. I think it was good enough for movies...and the dialog was very clear.

I will say that my uncle is VERY satisfied. He can hear dialog well, the speakers are small enough to keep my aunt from getting "fired-up", and "Paul Harvey is alway talking about them".

And if that's what makes your aunt and uncle happy, what's wrong with that?

I've seen so many "audio-phools" buy oodles of impressive brand names and connector jewelry and wacky cable gizmos so they can pound their own chests. No bearing on whether it really sounded good or not, just a collection of the best they can buy for ownership's sake.

Even semi-serious types usually buy something they feel good about, then stuff it into a room where the simple physics of acoustics cannot be overcome. Then brag about it how awesome it is.

I've had opportunity to listen to music in mastering studios, under well controlled conditions and know what it is supposed to sound like. Many "audiophiles" systems are the aural equivalent of over-sharpened, over-color-temped, red-pushed video displays. Yet to a man, they'll brag of "accuracy" and "detail" when presenting NOTHING of the sort. But that's what makes them happy, so be it.

Consider the Lowther and S.E.T. crowd. They spend WAY more than any Bose system for about 6 watts of power and single full range horn-loaded driver. Completely inferior by any measure, but admittedly it can be a seductive listening experience. Again, if that's what makes you happy, so be it!

In reality, it just doesn't matter. Get what makes you happy and fits your lifestyle and be happy with it.

Originally posted by Larry Fine
Is this Bose Anonymous?

Hello, everyone. My name is Larry, and there is a Bose-owner in my family. (All: "Hello, Larry!") Here is my story:

It all started last summer, when my sister, after watching a couple of movies here, decided she was ready to take the HT plunge. Naturally, she asked my advice. Since she lives within two hours' drive away, I offered to visit her the next weekend and escort her to a couple of good HT stores around her home.

Then, two days later, it happened; I got the dreaded phone call:

"Larry, I was at the mall today, and I saw the system I want! It's so cute, and the salesman offered me a great discount!"

"Let me guess: Bose?" I gasped.

"Yes, how did you know? Anyway, it's just what I want. They look cool, and they sound so good!"

"Jody, I'm coming down in three days; just wait for me."

"No, I have to get them tomorrow; the guy said it's a $3100 system, but he'll sell it to me for $1700 if I get the money by tomorrow. What a deal!"

I responded, "It's not even a $1700 system. Please wait for me!"

I went on to explain how they build a room around the speakers, and it won't sound anything like that in her room, etc., but it was no use; she was determined. *Heavy sigh!*

I went ahead with my visit that weekend, and endured a hot attic to install them in her family room, three along one wall (L, C, & R), and the other two on the opposire wall (LR & RR). Then ran the wires to the "bass" module, and then to the (the B&O wannabe) receiver.

"Okay, Sis, it's time to move the TV out of the corner."

"What do you mean, 'move the TV'? I like it in the corner." *Heavy sigh #2*

I tried, I really tried, but to no avail. She wouldn't let me move the TV to the space below the center speaker! So, it stays in the corner. The TV is left of the left speaker!

Okay, time to turn it on. Power on, adjust a thing or two, and stand back and listen. What do I hear next?

"Why doesn't it sound like yours?"

I cried!

I need a group hug!


Too Funny!!!

Originally posted by coach
I will tell you now that I just made a Bose recommendation......

Here's the scoop. My uncle is getting close to being "hard of hearing"...


A very interesting point. I was starting to think along the same lines during a conversation with my visiting, 69-year old dad.

After about a week of movies and music on our budget, mid-level HT system, I asked him what he thought about it. Of course he liked it but he said was probably missing much of the sound system's benefit due to his heavy reliance on hearing aids. It occurred to me that his situation would fit very will with a low-end audio solution.

I imagine one could find some decent bargains on Bose speakers, buying from people who have developed an ear for good sound. That could a guilt-free resell solution for those of use with Bose components hidden in our closets.

coach, did you have your uncle to try listen to some lower end HTS speakers that might also have a good enough center to hear dialog? Something like Polk 6700, Infinity Entra Point 5, etc., which would be a lot cheaper than Bose and might sound "good enough" as well.

Originally posted by coach
My uncle is getting close to being "hard of hearing"...

I will say that my uncle is VERY satisfied.

This about says it all!

(No offense, by the way, I'm glad your uncle likes his system. But you have to admit there's a bit of irony here that this is Bose's only real positive testimonial in this thread...)

Originally posted by AGE
This about says it all!

(

I read it as Bose is the only speaker system that worked well for a person with a hearing disability??

Originally posted by shankar
I read it as Bose is the only speaker system that worked well for a person with a hearing disability??

You're right, and I know that was the point of the story, and there IS something to be said for that-- I just thought it was mildly ironic that the closest thing to a personal testimonial on Bose's behalf came from someone who was hard of hearing. I am pretty sure all the other pro-Bose arguments in this thread never go beyond the theoretical level into the actual "I like the way they sound" level.

It reminds me of a friend's Volvo testimonial: "While she was driving her Volvo, my great aunt had a stroke because she had a brain tumor, and went off the road and crashed into a building-- and she was fine, came out without a scratch!"

Except, of course, for the cancer and the stroke...

Does the fact that I find this amusing make me a horrible person? (I don't find her illnesses amusing, just that this story was used a s a testimonial for how safe Volvo's are...)

Originally posted by neuronbob
I lost respect for Bose during the time I owned my 2002 Acura TL. It is a Bose system with a weak-assed bass module. It was way too bright, and low frequencies were muddy. When I recently looked at speakers, I had sense to stay away from Bose. After auditioning for 3 months, I instead bought Onix Rocket ELTs and am impressed with this sub-$1k system.

The Bose setup in the Acura was almost identical to the 2k2/2k3 Maxima's. It was a Clarion system with a Bose sub module.

Might as well post this link.

http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

The guy also offers a decent list of alternatives for the $$.

For my money, and if you are keeping a car stereo stock the Monsoon sound system put into Pontiac GrandAm GTs, Grand Prixs, and Firebird/Trans Ams were the best sounding stock radios I've heard. They destroyed the Infinity & Bose & others that I've heard in just about any car. I should know, I've got both a 2001 GAGT and 2002 TransAm.

The New Blaupunkt system in the new GTOs is unbelieveable...it's super clear and very accurate, I was highly impressed, even turning it up very loud it never missed a beat and still sounded very good. Course I was having more fun test driving the thing.

Just my $.02

Long time lurker recent poster. Just offering my $0.02. I have to start by saying that I am more informed on computers and the visual side. About 4 yrs ago I bought the low end bose acoustimass cube system....just single cubes with a passive subwoofer. I have heard high end stuff before but always in some store or professional HT setup. I have to say that I love the way the bose sound. They are clear. Imaging is good. And the bass is very pronounced without fluttering. I am SURE there are much better speakers out there if I were to piecmeal everything together and if I were to try performance tests and whatever. If the cats cant tell if the sound is from a speaker while in DTS then in my opinion they are as close to life as you can get.

For my use they shake the windows just fine. Now when I have my IMAX installed I may think about other options but for now with my MEASLY 50" HDTV I think Bose does a fine job. And I bought the system for $500. This same system is still available sub 500. Again all IMHO. Thanks
Rob

RobBug, no one will argue with your preferences. What matters to you is yours alone to answer. If you've found your sonic Nirvana, more power to ya. We just want people to make the choices that are right for them and not regret them later. Sounds like you are there.

What irks most of us is that beginners could easliy get mid-level 5.1 performance ("IMAX-quality" in your book, "very good to excellent" in my book) for less than a full Bose system price.

Originally posted by nuke
Consider the Lowther and S.E.T. crowd. They spend WAY more than any Bose system for about 6 watts of power and single full range horn-loaded driver. Completely inferior by any measure, ...


WRONG

Unless your sole measure of quality is dangerous SPL.

My biggest gripe with the acustimess system is the lack of bass management and the inability to set delay and levels of the individual speakers. Anyone who has invested $49 on a SPL meter and the time to setup their system knows what I'm talking about. Maybe this is possible with lifestyle system I've messed with it.

Originally posted by jdm1
5 Mirage Omnisat Micros, combined with Hsu STF-2 sub. See http://www.miragespeakers.com/omnistat_mic.shtml. Pro: looks very cool, pretty good sound, very small package. Con: sound possibly not as good as Axiom (but still better than Bose).


Interesting, I'd never heard of these but they look interesting. There is a dealer in my area, I'll check them out.

This thread has brought out an amazing amount of Bose bashing. It may be well deserved, but, I think the initial thought behind this thread was, 'how can I get a good sounding HT system that doesn't impose astetically on my room' (at least that's my concern, so, maybe I read the original post through glasses of that tint).

Anyway, what do the audio experts here think of in-wall or in-ceiling systems? Are the Klipsch RCW-5 / RCR-5 plus a sub and center channel a reasonable solution? Are there other "invisible" speaker solutions you'd suggest?

There are many excellet in wall speakers made by excellent manufacturers like Klipsch. The only two speakers that I would not put in a wall are the center channel and a subwoofer. Subwoofes can be hidden in some situations. Just don't ask a band pass bass module to do the work of a real subwoofer.

Bill

I have to share my Bose story.

I grew up with my dad's HT, which consisted of a 27" TV, a Kenwood stereo amp, and a pair of Bose 301's. Few years ago he decided it was time to step up to a 5.1 system. My friend has a Lifestyle system and I thought it sounded pretty good (compared to our stereo setup anyway...and BTW he had a 15" Cerwin Vega sub along with his "Bass unit"). So me and my dad went to Circuit City to check out some systems. We were looking at a Bose Lifestyle system (which for some reason was not in the speaker room, but in the main aisle, with the rear speakers cantelievered over your head above the aisle...you know the display I'm talking about), and we though it was pretty good. Then one of the salesmen walks up to us and says "Sounds pretty good huh?"

"yeah...its pretty good...my friend has on of these systems and it sounds cool" I responded. Then the salesman did something that probbably would have made Bose's marketing team sh** a brick if they saw it. He said "watch this", and took the Bose brochure that was next to the display, and used it to cover the port hole on the bass unit. Suddenly all the sound disappeared, and all we heard was nasty tinny garbage sound. :eek:

Needless to say, we ended up "building" our own system.

BTW...the "Bose Annonymous" story made me LOL :D

-Scot

Good one, Scot. :D Glad you built your own system ... better sound for less $. :)

All this talk about in-car Bose systems has been a refreshing change of pace. I find it interesting how everybody thinks the factory Bose units have no bass. The Acura 3.2CL Type-S uses a 6 speaker Bose with no separate sub. It has way, way, too much bass. It is absolutely awful sounding bass...... muddy with no definition, but there's is so much of it! It's overbearing and is the only thing you can hear in the music. I'll admit the separation is quite good for a car system, and the primary vocals off the tweeters somehow manage to cut through the mud-sea of bass. At the lowest volume setting all you can hear is "bbbboooonnnnggggggg" sounds coming from the back of the car though......... :)

I think one of the biggest reasons audiophiles don't respect Bose is because they (Bose) doesn't care AT ALL about sound quality or accurate music reproduction. Period. Profits first, quality second.

I used to sell audio equipment, I worked for two different stores while I was in college. The first sold Bose. That's partially why I quit and went to work at a better place that didn't sell Bose.

Aside from all of the stories about how bad they sound, we've heard enough, I'll tell you why I don't like them from a salesman point of view. First, they fix their prices. That's why you never see sales anywhere, unless Bose lifts the restrictions on a certain model (usually because they want to clear stock because they're about to come out with something new), then everyone has sales. IMHO, price fixing is immoral and should be illegal. I don't know why retailers stand for it. Second, Bose wants to control their prices so tightly, they won't even allow the store to sell customer returns or demo units at discounts (unless again, it's a discontinued model). If a customer returned a set of Bose because...(they didn't like them, wife said no, didn't need them, second thoughts about spending all of that money, etc...), we couldn't turn around and sell it to a customer at a discount. Third, Bose required to be set up seperate from other brands of speakers, so you couldn't do AB comparisons and really get customers the right speakers for their listening habits. Fourth, people come in brainwashed from all of the advertising. Some sales people like this, as it provides for quick, easy, commission-boosting sales. However, I couldn't handle selling people crap without at least attempting to show something different (I would try to step customers down in price to something better, and sometimes they wouldn't have it!!!). Fifth, they're poorly built, many customer returns and hassles over blown speakers, etc. Sixth, I'd always have to handle tons of phone calls after selling a set of Bose ("why doesn't my system sound as good as in the store?" "Can you help me verify I have everything situated/hooked up correctly?") An after sales nightmare. After awhile, I basically refused to sell Bose speakers. Maybe I was being unreasonable for a salesman, but I'd had it with their crappy products and all of the headaches that occured after the sales. I flat out refused to ring one customer up on a set of acoustimass speakers. They complained to my manager, he wrote me up, I went out and applied to a real store, and the rest is history.

One other note...people keep citing "WAF" and "ease of setup" and "convenient all in one system" as reasons for buying Bose. Sorry, but in my humble opinion, that's a bunch of BS to justify having already thrown your money away on garbage. Bose was the first company to take the satellite/sub concept and run mainstream with it, so they get that recognition (again, great marketing on their part, but that's about it). Over the last 7 years or so, several companies have made just as small, convenient, good looking systems for comparable prices to the lifestyle systems that sound MUCH better. People buy Bose for one of two reasons: 1, for the same reason they buy clothes with designer names printed all freaking over them, like Tommy Jeans or what not. It's all about having that big brand name in the house that says "I'm not cheap, I paid for the best." Nothing more. Either that, or they are so brainwashed and closed minded that they absolutely refuse to even consider anything else. After all, if Mr. (sellout) Paul Harvey says they are the best, then it must be. No two bit college student wearing a cheap polo shirt is going to tell me otherwise.

Sorry if I insulted anyone, but that's my honest opinion. If you buy Bose, it's because you fall into one of those two categories.

My most recent Bose observation.......

I just got back from a business trip to Dallas. One night, my associates and I went to a new 'gentleman's club' called Baby Doll's. Anyone who has been to such places in Dallas knows the high end club competition is fierce.
One of the 'dancers' extolling on the virtues of the new club exclaimed...."look at our sound system...it cost over a half million dollars!"

I look up and all I see is Bose after Bose after Bose. I mean dozens of 901s, inwall units, sonic tubes that must have been 20 feet long and all kinds of other specialty speakers I've never seen before.

Bottom line, a half million dollars and the sound still sucked. Even the bass was terrible. Go figure.

Originally posted by DJ_JonnyV
Budweiser here in the states has a very crisp, clean, refreshing taste to it,


I think you just described water, not beer, which is the problem with Budweiser.

Beer is supposed to have body, full flavor, and a certain degree of bitterness derived from hops. None of these attributes can be described as you just described a Budweiser, merely underscoring the point.

Whcih also serves to further the comparison of Budweiser to Bose. Budweiser has marketed its "attributes" as positives to the masses, convincing many that it is a good beer - when in fact it cannot be compared in any way to real beer. This is very similiar, to the way that Bose has marketed its Acoustimass system, highlighting aspects seem appealing to the masses, when the attributes which really matter to good sound are entirely absent.

Originally posted by Danho
I've got a new Mustang GT and it has the Mach 460 in it. I think it is made by Alpine. It sounds pretty good for a stocker. Actually it is the best sounding stock stereo I've ever heard, and that includes my boss's exotic cars (M-B, Jag, etc.). The only downfall the Mach has is that the upper frequencies are kind of weak. I want to replace the fronts with a better separate set; I'm considering Focals as I really like their sound. I might add a small sub and that is about it. I don't want to dump too much into the car as I am saving for new home speakers!

Thsi system does sound nice. It is not made by Alpine, but by an OEM manufacturer for Ford. You cannot, however, just change the speakers, as the amplifiers in this system are not compatible with normal 4 Ohm car stereo speakers. I think the car uses 2 Ohm speakers, which means that to replace the speakers, you need to replace the amps, which means you need to replace the head unit. This is an all or nothing system, unfortunately, so enjoy it the way it is!

I've personally never understood the whole "ease of set up" . How is a bose accustomess any easier to set up than any other system? There's a wire for each speaker to be plugged into the "bass" unit and then a cable for each channel from the "bass" unit to your reciever. Not to mention the wires are a predetermined length. If you cut them and need more length it probably costs $1200 for a new set from bose.

Why does Bose sound bad? Because each speaker uses a single 2.5" driver. Simple physics dictates that such a driver can neither replicate high frequencies nor lower mid frequencies well. It can only do upper mid frequencies correctly.

Just about every other speaker on the planet uses multiple drivers. A very small tweeter for reproducing high frequencies and a larger (3-6") driver for midrange to bass. Can't anyone else figure out how to do it like Bose? No, because Bose can't either. It cannot be done at this price point. So Bose has to compensate with equalizers, stressing the inferior drivers even more, and further degrading the sound.

This why a cheaper alternative with a dual driver system and a proper crossover can defeat the Bose with ease. A point source might be theoretically ideal, but in the real world it just cannot reproduce the full range of frerquencies required, and Bose does not.

Further, mid range must be moved to the "sub" module, which cannot then concentrate on lower base as it should.

Originally posted by capecodguy
... Dallas. ... 'gentleman's club' called Baby Doll's. ...

Ummm. Baby Dolls!

Fine pneumatic babes. Nasty sound. :rolleyes:


My favorite club in Texas is The Lady, near downtown Austin. Nice babes (and most actually have brains). Killer sound and killer mix. Ever hear a serious acid/techno mix in a dance club? Amazing. Leads the ladies to actually dance. Not just pose.

Originally posted by ScotWithOne_t
I have to share my Bose story.

"yeah...its pretty good...my friend has on of these systems and it sounds cool" I responded. Then the salesman did something that probbably would have made Bose's marketing team sh** a brick if they saw it. He said "watch this", and took the Bose brochure that was next to the display, and used it to cover the port hole on the bass unit. Suddenly all the sound disappeared, and all we heard was nasty tinny garbage sound. :eek:

-Scot


When I was younger my Dad and I went into a Bose Outlet at an outlet mall in Georgia and the official Bose sales dude did the same exact thing (covered the bass module port). So apparently it is a Bose approved demonstration technique. The difference is somewhat impressive until you realize what it means about how they produce their sounds.

Todd

Bose disgust me, anytime I see a Bose logo, I vomit! :D

I've been lucky to be blessed with a dad whos a musician, and I myself one to. And parents that don't fall for BS, my dad would have never plopped down the money for anything with the Bose name on it, but all my parents friends sure did.

The worst part about having friends that own Bose speakers, is that IMO I can't even tell them how much they screwed up, I find it extremely hard because who the hell am I, but I want to tell them none the less. But I just sit there and nod when they show me how awsome there sound is.

Now Bose has gotten into the MM PC speaker market with there Bose MediaMate, they are the most god awful sounding speakers in the world. For 40 bucks you can buy PC speakers that absolutly kill these POS.
Then you have the Bose Tri-Port headphones, that sound like crap, for the same price you can order a set Sennheiser HD580 headphones that absolutly sound a million times better than those.

There is also a ritzy yuppie mall down here in Tampa by the airport called the International Mall, theres a Bose store in there, I swear to god I want to in there and just tell the salespeople how much of a ripoff your speakers are, but I've only been to the mall 2 times, and I don't want to go back. Theres also a Mac store in there, I think the only one in Florida, if that tells you anything, consumers who buy Macs, well there the same consumers that buy Bose. Macs have there purpose, and that the pro AV digital eiditng arena. They are however a waste of money if you are just an average joe consumer.

Edit: They have now 6 Apple Stores here in Florida.

This thread is tempting to to go to the Blows store in the Mall of America here in Minneapolis, and ask one of the salesmen what the frequency response is on the cube speakers. :D

-Scot

good luck finding any published specifications

Originally posted by DMF
Ummm. Baby Dolls!

Fine pneumatic babes. Nasty sound. :rolleyes:


My favorite club in Texas is The Lady, near downtown Austin. Nice babes (and most actually have brains). Killer sound and killer mix. Ever hear a serious acid/techno mix in a dance club? Amazing. Leads the ladies to actually dance. Not just pose.

LOL

I lived behind The Lady from '89-92. Man did I hear some nasty cat fights between 3-5am and had to pick up beer and liquor bottles out of the backyard daily. The worst was the "recyclers" in their dumpster starting at 6am throwing bottles one by one into their pickup. My girlfriend(now wife) really laid into them one morning when she had a terrific hangover. She must have really scared them because they didn't come back for over a month.

Originally posted by jehrico76
I used to sell audio equipment, I worked for two different stores while I was in college. The first sold Bose. That's partially why I quit and went to work at a better place that didn't sell Bose.

...

Sorry if I insulted anyone, but that's my honest opinion. If you buy Bose, it's because you fall into one of those two categories.

Thanks for sharing w/ us - very entertaining! If you're native Korean, I have to compliment on your written English. And even if you're an American that's just living in Korea for whatever reason, your English is good. :D

Anyway, my biggest victory against Blose was to convince my father to spend his money elsewhere. We got Athena satellite + sub speakers, which sound great - much better than Blose. And we got a highly touted receiver (at least in this forum) that just happened to be defective - but it'll be replaced soon enough. (I'm referring to the Panasonic SA-XR45S.)

I even "upgraded" my Bose sound in my Acura by buying a separate subwoofer to throw in the hatch. Bass sounds at least 10 times better w/ that Infinity BassLink. :D

Originally posted by ScotWithOne_t
This thread is tempting to to go to the Blows store in the Mall of America here in Minneapolis, and ask one of the salesmen what the frequency response is on the cube speakers. :D

-Scot

The problem with that particular spec is that it's easy to manipulate. Ever see some speakers that claim to go down to a certain freq, but then it says something like +-3dB, while other brands will state +1 -3 dB or +-1dB or whatever? I wouldn't doubt that Bose might actually be able to prove that they can go 40Hz to 20kHz, but it wouldn't be a particularly honest (i.e. flat) rating, it probably wouldn't even be close.

One more post on this thread...

I saw one of the saddest things the other day...I walked into this bar, and behind the bar, they had this stack of McIntosh power amps powering all of the speakers in the bar. Now, I'm fairly impressed, it's not everyday you see something of that caliber in a bar of all places. Then, I looked up on the walls, and saw a ton of Bose speakers. What a waste. I tried to buy the amps from the bar, told them I would replace them with something where they wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but they wouldn't bite. Those amps deserve a better home.

What a bunch of dorks.

My first pair of Magnepans had nothing close to 20-20K response. Big deal, they sounded great and I enjoyed them greatly.

Audio has sucked in general since it has become a playground for status seeking wankers to show off their "equipmentism."

Originally posted by capecodguy
My most recent Bose observation.......

I just got back from a business trip to Dallas. One night, my associates and I went to a new 'gentleman's club' called Baby Doll's. Anyone who has been to such places in Dallas knows the high end club competition is fierce.
One of the 'dancers' extolling on the virtues of the new club exclaimed...."look at our sound system...it cost over a half million dollars!"

I look up and all I see is Bose after Bose after Bose. I mean dozens of 901s, inwall units, sonic tubes that must have been 20 feet long and all kinds of other specialty speakers I've never seen before.

Bottom line, a half million dollars and the sound still sucked. Even the bass was terrible. Go figure.

Damn it!!!! WHYYYYYYYY????? Now I gotta find another titty bar to go to :(

Originally posted by jehrico76
One more post on this thread...

I saw one of the saddest things the other day...I walked into this bar, and behind the bar, they had this stack of McIntosh power amps powering all of the speakers in the bar. Now, I'm fairly impressed, it's not everyday you see something of that caliber in a bar of all places. Then, I looked up on the walls, and saw a ton of Bose speakers. What a waste. I tried to buy the amps from the bar, told them I would replace them with something where they wouldn't be able to tell the difference, but they wouldn't bite. Those amps deserve a better home.

Hey jehrico76,

Just load up on the Soju and you won't care about the Bose anymore. :D

I'm betting the PX at Camp Hovey is a little lacking in the audio department. But they probably hock some Bose, huh? Soldiers love the Bose.

Todd

Originally posted by Nhan
Damn it!!!! WHYYYYYYYY????? Now I gotta find another titty bar to go to :(


What? Like there's a shortage in Dallas?

:eek:

Originally posted by JohnR_IN_LA
Hah the last time I went to the UK, all the young people were drinking Bud :P

I was drinking Samuel Smiths of course, but ....

How funny!! The last time I was in Dublin, one of the most popular drinks at the Temple Bar was Miller Genuine Draft!!! I about puked!! Of course I was drinking Guiness, Murphy's, and Harp.

All highs, no lows, must be Blose!! Proof is in the demo/comparison!

J

MGD really isn't bad.

But when you got Guiness you don't need anything else. Including dinner.

Originally posted by tsnigg
Hey jehrico76,

Just load up on the Soju and you won't care about the Bose anymore. :D

I'm betting the PX at Camp Hovey is a little lacking in the audio department. But they probably hock some Bose, huh? Soldiers love the Bose.

Todd

Ahh, I bet you've suffered through a few soju-induced hangovers yourself, from the sound of it. Then you know that a soju-hangover is the worst type of hangover known to man. No thanks, I stay away from that stuff.

Actually, the PX on Hovey is nothing more than a little shopette. No speakers at all. The main PX is down the street on Cp Casey. The PX selection of audio is absolutely pathetic. If you know how much I hate Bose, then you know how frustrating it is for me to say that Bose are the best speakers they carry here. They used to have JBL, Klipsch and a couple of other good brands. Now it's just Yamaha speakers, Sony, Kenwood, and Bose. Soldiers only buy Bose for two reasons: They're small, making them ideal for soldiers who move every couple of years and live in small rooms in the barracks, and they're the only brand that's there that is marketed as premium. The bose rep in the PX hates me. I make a point of telling any soldier I see considering buying them that Bose sucks, and that they should go down to the electronics market in Seoul and audition some alternatives. I've cost that guy a ton of sales :D (and saved a few joes from wasting their hard earned paychecks).

I also see that you're from Augusta...I was stationed at Gordon before I came here. I hope my house in Martinez that I'm renting out right now is still in one piece....:confused:

If a club is not using Telex EV speakers, then they shouldn't even brag about the speakers they use. :p

Originally posted by beowulf7
My car was marketed as having a "premium Bose sound system". Although I really like my car, I don't like the audio at all. The head unit is vastly underpowered (although Bose probably didn't make that, I'm not sure). But the speakers aren't great and the bass, even w/ the stock Bose "woofer" in the trunk, is weak and pathetic. The best thing I did w/ its sound system was to spend another $250 and get a powered 10" Infinity sub (BassLink).

To sum it up, it's no coincidence that "Bose" rhymes w/ "blows". Bose blows! :mad:

Ack, you got an RSX as well? Clarion makes the head unit.

Originally posted by coldfusion
Ack, you got an RSX as well? Clarion makes the head unit.
Yeah, how'd you know? :D I guess you have one, too. :cool: What year and trim?

While I agree that Bose generally makes overpriced, mediocre-sounding stuff, I must say that as someone who flys 80k miles a year my Bose noise-cancelling headphones are a Godsend. I love 'em.

-Paul

To top it off:

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, Ohio uses Bose speakers exclusively. Needless to say, the sound is the Bose tone. I was not impressed durring my visit a few years ago.

Hi DJ_JonnyV,

Is there a big differnence between Bush and Bud and how it is brewed?

Thanks bob

>The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, <
We all know how bad the small HT speakers from BOSE are. I was recently at a play and the live audio was wuite good. when I looked the large comercial speakers were Bose. Does Bose have a differnet name in the comercial line?

Thanks Bob

My friend is a full blown bose-ite. The bose article on intellexual.net didn't convince him. Should I stage an intervention?

Nah. He's hopeless. Get a new friend.

Originally posted by DMF
Nah. He's hopeless. Get a new friend.
LOL! :D

Originally posted by beowulf7
Yeah, how'd you know? :D I guess you have one, too. :cool: What year and trim?

It was easy to spot once you mentioned the "in trunk" subwoofer :) You either got an RSX-S or RSX with the "premium" sound package.

I've got an '03 Black RSX with leather. Wanted a RSX-S, but with all the stop-and-go traffic i'm in it'd suck having to shift every 5 seconds.

The worst thing about the car is the sound system...heck, the sound system in my old Hyundai was better and more powerful. A month after i got the car i ripped out the head unit and replaced it with the Clarion DXZ835MP. With all the interior lights being red, it'd stand out like a sore thumb if I had gotten an Alpine. But the Clarion has an adjustable color LED and sounds decent...now to replace those terrible speakers... :)

The funny thing is if Bose did make a good sounding speaker, all of the audiophiles would think it is crap because they have already made up their mind before they take a chance to listen to them. Even if said audiophile had an open mind and gave the speakers a chance and found he/she actually liked the speaker it would never be admitted for fear of being stripped of their golden-ear status.
The most ironic thing is how many people here call Bose overpriced garbage, but then drool over the extra-ordinary speaker designs with horrible lab measurements such as the $20000+ monstrosities from Wilson audio.
Well there goes my chance at ever being able to join the golden-ear club...

Originally posted by coldfusion
It was easy to spot once you mentioned the "in trunk" subwoofer :) You either got an RSX-S or RSX with the "premium" sound package.

I've got an '03 Black RSX with leather. Wanted a RSX-S, but with all the stop-and-go traffic i'm in it'd suck having to shift every 5 seconds.

The worst thing about the car is the sound system...heck, the sound system in my old Hyundai was better and more powerful. A month after i got the car i ripped out the head unit and replaced it with the Clarion DXZ835MP. With all the interior lights being red, it'd stand out like a sore thumb if I had gotten an Alpine. But the Clarion has an adjustable color LED and sounds decent...now to replace those terrible speakers... :)
Cool. I guess if you have a lot of traffic, driving M/T can be a PITA. While I've never driven SS that you have, you can still have a little fun by using the "auto shifter".

Mine's a 2002 DSM Type-S.

The Bose "premium" sound is totally not worth it. Buying the Infinity BassLink subwoofer was one of my best mods I've done in my car. I haven't upgraded the HU b/c I like the fact that I have an in-dash 6 CD changer, even though I admit the HU is severly underpowered. (And it pisses me off that it doesn't display track time when playing a CD. :rolleyes: )

Are you in a car club? If not, check out Club RSX (forums.clubrsx.com). :cool:

In all honesty, Bose speakers are not THAT bad. The produce "decent" sound, but this is obviously not enough for the autophile. Sure they cost a lot, sure their sound isn't that great, but if people are happy buying them and thinking they have good sound, let them be.

Of course, if they ask for your opinion, then tell them what you think of them, but don't think it's going to be easy to convert them away from Bose sound systems. I have a friend that is adamant about the goodness of Bose systems. No matter what i say/do he never accepts the fact that they are just plain mediocre bordering poor.

It just makes me laugh every single time i hear someone say "wow, I got Bose speakers!" :D It makes me laugh even more when people defend their reasons for getting a Bose system.

Oh yeah, during a sermon, my pastor was talking about radios as an illustration and you can guess which radio he used as his "best radio" example... that's right, the Bose radio. I just wanted to laugh out loud so hard.

If you're going to resurrect a gratefully dead thread - especially *this* one - don fireproof underwear and prepare to get flamed, n00b!

;)


BTW, welcome.

Originally posted by DMF
If you're going to resurrect a gratefully dead thread - especially *this* one - don fireproof underwear and prepare to get flamed, n00b!

;)


BTW, welcome.

Then, again, if one resurrects a thread, rather than starting a new one, at least most of the flames are already in it!

SOhp101, I second the welcome.

Originally posted by E Jackson
Then, again, if one resurrects a thread, rather than starting a new one, at least most of the flames are already in it!

SOhp101, I second the welcome.
Also, I think SOhp101 deserves some credit for searching rather than just starting a duplicate thread.

BTW for anyone who wants a pretty good write up on Bose (specifically their AM-15 system), check out this thread (http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html). I don't remember if it was already mentioned on a previous page, but I recently read it from another thread's link.

If you don't want to read that essay, then at least check out the author's (Rich Wang's) conclusion:

This six-speaker unit costs $1299.99 USD MSRP. From dissecting it, I can tell you it costs $100, no more than $150 tops, to assemble. It performs similarly to a $500 Optimus-Radio Shack surround sound system and is very easily outperformed by a $350 Cambridge Soundworks system. For $1300, there are at least three dozen other configurations from companies such as KEF, PSB, NHT, Mission, Tannoy, Diva, Polk, B&W, Energy, Paradigm, M&K, Infinity, Mirage, Monitor, Jamo, Axiom, nOrh, Anthony Gallo, Dahlquist, Sound Dynamics, Acoustic Research, Phase Technology, Definitive Technology, Wharfdale, Boston Acoustics, and Klipsch that easily outperform all Bose speakers from the 151s to the 901s. If you are in the market for such a surround sound system, I have compiled an extensive list of speaker systems for you to peruse. Just click here (http://www.intellexual.net/speaker5.html).

Bose equipment, even the flagship LifeStyle 50, resembles the sonic performance of the 11-year-old Aiwa minisystem in my garage. For $500, the Wave Radio is an overpriced alarm clock. If you're impressed by it, have a listen to a Henry Kloss radio for a fraction of the price! For $1000, the Bose 3-2-1 can not be described as anything less than a crime against sound reproduction. The message I want everyone to take from this lengthy review is that Bose, like Bang & Olufsen and Nakamichi, sell lifestyle and designer products whose prices are very heavily saturated by image and appeal. They are by no means, no means at all performance products. They have no cost-effectiveness, no bang-for-the-buck value, and draw no respect from any true audio enthusiests. If your goal is to appeal to and impress housewives, then this system gets the job done, but if your goal is high fidelity, high performance, high endurance, upgradeability, and fair market value pricing then I would very highly suggest you look elsewhere.

:D

Edit: Fixed a link.

Ow!

Originally posted by beowulf7
BTW for anyone who wants a pretty good write up on Bose (specifically their AM-15 system), check out this thread (http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html). I don't remember if it was already mentioned on a previous page, but I recently read it from another thread's link.

If you don't want to read that essay, then at least check out the author's (Rich Wang's) conclusion:

:D

Edit: Fixed a link.

That review is truely dreadful, some of the crap he comes up with are timeless classics, like

Still, this leaves a frequency gap between the satellites and bass module of about 80 Hz! That is 80 hertz of sound that is completely erased within the system's internal crossovers! I wonder how Bose figured out which 80 hertz matters least in the audible spectrum?

I guess he can't even read his own graphs. :rolleyes:

I'm not defending Bose, by the way, I don't rate their products either.

Originally posted by ssangste
That's because Bud outside of the US is really not that bad...... the reason: it is made by other breweries and it tastes virtually nothing like Budweiser here in the US!!.... I can actually drink a Bud when I am at home in the Maritimes on vacation... it's certainly not my first choice, but it is stomachable.... but I vomit after even *trying* to drink the same thing here in the US... vile dreck it is...

as for Bose... I think we're all a little envious of the fact that they can get away with making 1000% profit on a piece of junk that people honestly believe sounds good.... I know I'd love to be able to markup the speakers I build for friends that much !! :) that and the fact that US bud doesn't use Nitrous like most of england.

Originally posted by Skibbi9
that and the fact that US bud doesn't use Nitrous like most of england.

I was going to stay out of the Budweiser debate, but this is more misinformation than I can take. First off, nobody in England uses "nitrous" (N2O) in their beer, it's nitrogen (N2). Second, most English beers use what is commonly called "Guinness gas," which is a mixture of CO2 and N2, not straight N2. The nitrogen produces much finer bubbles, and is responsible for the impossibly creamy head of Guinness.

As for Bud, I used to work at a law firm who handled much of A-B's work, and I can tell you two things. First, A-B is unsurpassed at quality control. They are maniacs about freshness, and will pull a distributor or a store if they find that they are not keeping up with A-B's freshness standards. And I know for a fact that August Busch IV used to personally go out to stores and distributors on a regular basis (very often, actually) and do spot checks. Impressive for a multi-gazillionaire, eh?

Second, A-B's brewers are second to none. Say what you want about the taste (I personally do not like any of A-B's products myself), but these guys are at the top of their game. Ask a home brewer to try and brew a Bud, and you will find that it's damn near impossible. It is very difficult to consistently (consistently!) brew a light beer like Bud that tastes the same each and every time. It's MUCH easier to make a fuller flavored beer like Sierra Nevada or Sam Adams, because a bunch of hops and crystal malt go a long way in covering up any inconsistencies. Bud is just out there, naked, and you can't hide the flaws.

So I'll say it again, in case you missed it the first time, I personally do not like Bud, but I admire the effort that goes into making sure it is sold fresh, and the skill of the brewers there. It may not be your flavor, but it's unfair to compare it to Bose. Bose does their damndest to make a cheaply made product (ie. Old Milwaukee) seem like it's the best thing out there (Samuel Smith's).

Originally posted by Skibbi9
that and the fact that US bud...<snip>

Oh, yeah...the Bud debate, buried predominately in the center of the Bose debate. I guess there was a reason to not resurrect this particular thread...

For your top of the line you should put PBR (I don't believe any other beer has won the blue ribbon, do you?)

:)

Thanks for the welcome guys. :D

The only reason why I "resurrected" the tread instead of making a new one is because I've noticed that there are a lot of re-posts... something that i really loathe... That way, the same arguments aren't made over and over again.

And the discussion about Budweiser, though off topic, was still amusing. :P

Originally posted by M3 Pete
I was going to stay out of the Budweiser debate, but this is more misinformation than I can take. First off, nobody in England uses "nitrous" (N2O) in their beer, it's nitrogen (N2). Second, most English beers use what is commonly called "Guinness gas," which is a mixture of CO2 and N2, not straight N2. The nitrogen produces much finer bubbles, and is responsible for the impossibly creamy head of Guinness.

As for Bud, I used to work at a law firm who handled much of A-B's work, and I can tell you two things. First, A-B is unsurpassed at quality control. They are maniacs about freshness, and will pull a distributor or a store if they find that they are not keeping up with A-B's freshness standards. And I know for a fact that August Busch IV used to personally go out to stores and distributors on a regular basis (very often, actually) and do spot checks. Impressive for a multi-gazillionaire, eh?

Second, A-B's brewers are second to none. Say what you want about the taste (I personally do not like any of A-B's products myself), but these guys are at the top of their game. Ask a home brewer to try and brew a Bud, and you will find that it's damn near impossible. It is very difficult to consistently (consistently!) brew a light beer like Bud that tastes the same each and every time. It's MUCH easier to make a fuller flavored beer like Sierra Nevada or Sam Adams, because a bunch of hops and crystal malt go a long way in covering up any inconsistencies. Bud is just out there, naked, and you can't hide the flaws.

So I'll say it again, in case you missed it the first time, I personally do not like Bud, but I admire the effort that goes into making sure it is sold fresh, and the skill of the brewers there. It may not be your flavor, but it's unfair to compare it to Bose. Bose does their damndest to make a cheaply made product (ie. Old Milwaukee) seem like it's the best thing out there (Samuel Smith's).

You beat me to it. I was going to say damn near the exact same thing, even the thing about the guinness gas (for anyone thats curious, its usually about 75/25 N2/CO2).

Anyway, I was an intern at one of the AB breweries in college and was intimately involved in the brewing process. I've homebrewed many a beer myself and have had hundreds, if not 1000+, of comercially available beers from all over the world, Budweiser isn't one of my favorites, but I sure can respect what they do (and I actually do like it from time to time, its my favorite 'American' beer). The quality of ingredients, process control and quality assurance is staggering. You may not like the taste (i.e. you may be a beer snob:D ) but unless you have seen the care and work that goes into it you shouldn't knock it.

Hmmm, did I forget something????


oh yeah....Bose sucks!!:p

Bose is a basically a speaker marketing company.

They cater to WAF, & the unknowing.

I will give them some respect, they sell bad speakers, for a high cost, & have done so for quite some time. Most companies that sell such a bad product, usually don't last too long.

If you cut their prices down by oh...75 percent or so on average, then everything would be a lot more forgiveable because that would be a far more accurate representation.

I easily know some HTIB's that blow $1000+ Bose speakers out of the water. One easy example: Fire up the Onkyo 760 sometime and listen to how good that sounds vs. that AM-15 Bose system that they'll try and shove down your throat.

:p

"The quality of ingredients, process control and quality assurance is staggering."

Unfortunately the end product isn't. lol

One thing that always cracks me up is when someones favorite beer is budwieser but when someone hands them a busch they're like "eeeww how can you drink that stuff?" When your comparing two crappy flavorless beers how can one be you favorite and the other suck? I mean were not comparing sierra nevada to milwaukees best here. The way i see it all the yellow domestic "pee beer" is good for one thing... getting a cheap buzz on a hot thirsty summer day whilst barbequing. It must be chugged and not savored. I repeat chugged not savored.

Tube-

How dare you insult The King of Beers! BTW, all of my beer is chugged AND savored...Sierra Nevada or Coors Light...BBQ or no BBQ...hot summer day or no hot summer day...cheap buzz or...yeah, just cheap buzz!

LOL,

Jason

GUINNESS STOUT!

It's not just for dinner any more.

Whoopy!

Tell you what, I got a pair of Bose in-walls for rear surrounds and guess what, they work fine. I drank a bud last night too. Not my favorite, but it worked fine as well.

Most of this debate is posturing and ego-driven hot air and nothing more.

I wouldn't mind a set of Bose aviation headsets either. They are DAMN nice, just more than I want to pay, so I'm flying with the David Clarkes still.

Yeah, Hoorah for beer...and speakers too...whichever brand you like!

Much Love,

Jason

BOSE is crap. It doesn't switch video, it is over priced.

"Bose" rhymes with "blows". What a coincident, eh? :p

Originally posted by beowulf7
"Bose" rhymes with "blows". What a coincident, eh? :p

Coincidentally, Bose also rhymes with Stroh's. Hmmmm...where's your Jamaican psychic now?

J.

Originally posted by RevelMN
It doesn't switch video.

Bryston doesn't either.

Originally posted by JeffY
Bryston doesn't either.


But if it doesn't switch video it MUST SUCK! And they only have a 20 year warranty? Whats with that BS?

You can purchase the apv1 video switcher. Bryston doesn't believe in the combining of audio and video in the same box.

http://www.bryston.ca/spv1cov.html

Did you know on the Bose lifestyle system the component output uses the S-Video and composite video outputs. with a mickey mouse y cable adapter.

Mmmm beer. This Eliot Ness tastes as good as it smells...over priced, but for good reason. How yummy. I'm frolicking in the land of hops... Oh my, where the hell has this thread gone? What were we talking about ? And where is the hell is my car? Dude where's my car? Dude are we out of beer?

I never heard of Bryston before. :o But I just checked the specs on one of their amps (14B SST). They claim 600 WpC (into 8 ohms)!! :eek: Holy hot diggity!

They don't sell any all-in-one receivers? Everything seems to be pre/pro/amp. I know I'll get sticker shock, but I'll ask anyway. How much $ do one of their products go for?

Originally posted by tubenewbee
Mmmm beer. This Eliot Ness tastes as good as it smells...over priced, but for good reason. How yummy. I'm frolicking in the land of hops... Oh my, where the hell has this thread gone? What were we talking about ? And where is the hell is my car? Dude where's my car? Dude are we out of beer?

Seriously...we're so off topic. I'd like to get back to what the thread was originally about. Enough of the funny banter and joking. I'm tired of the antics and tangents. I want to get back to business. Let's take care of this issue for once and for all...I just need to find my keys...Where did I leave my keys...which way is the garage...who's dog is this?...here's the door...DUDE, WHERE'S MY CAR? (And the most tragic of all...) OH MY GOD...YES, WE'RE OUT OF BEER!:mad:

Tube, you kill me. We definitely need to get together for some Great Lakes!

Jason

Originally posted by beowulf7
I never heard of Bryston before. :o But I just checked the specs on one of their amps (14B SST). They claim 600 WpC (into 8 ohms)!! :eek: Holy hot diggity!

They don't sell any all-in-one receivers? Everything seems to be pre/pro/amp. I know I'll get sticker shock, but I'll ask anyway. How much $ do one of their products go for?

From here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=397428

FYI, MSRPs since 01 Jan 2004 are as follows:
4B-SST is US$3095
6B-SST is US$4995
7B-SST is US$3295
9B-SST is US$4895
14B-SST is US$5995

Their 'claim to fame', besides sounding freaking outstanding, is their 'full 20 Year transferable warranty, parts and labour'. Not a bad deal, eh?

Originally posted by JasonColeman

Tube, you kill me. We definitely need to get together for some Great Lakes!

Jason

sounds good!

Oh by the way, I found my car. Apparently it was right where i left it. Go figure... I couldn't for the life of me understand why anyone would steal a cavalier. Especially one that was stuck in a ditch.

Now back to the topic at hand. So, are Bose speakers really that bad? :D

Yep.

Originally posted by jjdche
From here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=397428



Their 'claim to fame', besides sounding freaking outstanding, is their 'full 20 Year transferable warranty, parts and labour'. Not a bad deal, eh?

Holy shiznit, $6k for that Bryston 14B SST "receiver"! :eek: Whether it's a 20-year or 100-year warranty and no matter how good the sound is, it's a bad deal for anyone whose income bracket falls in the lower 98% of everyone who earns money.

But for millionaires who are "financially free" and want the absolute best, I guess this would be a nice toy. If I had an obscene amount of money, I'd definitely spend it on high end HTS equipment like this instead of boring paintings and sculptures. :)

Ahhh, priorities! :p

The general thrust of this thread is laughable. The self-anointed "golden ears" posting are probably the same guys who pay hundreds of dollars for "special" speaker leads, which by the way are useless. MSEE speaking here.

I can buy any audio system made without a second thought. In fact, for my latest HT I included Bose center and L/R teamed with Radio Shack rears. Why? They fit the space available and looked nice in situ. They go nicely with the NEC 50 plasma. How do they sound? Fine.

I am not listening to the Boston Philharmonic...I'm watching TV! Basketball playoffs, the Sopranos, World Poker Tour or CSI-Miami. Pots and pans rattle in the kitchen; the cat vocalizes his boredom; a guest is talking on her cell phone.

If you haven't made the effort and expense to optimize your room acoustics, you probably have (example follows) a bass boost of 12db at 80 hertz, a huge dip at 300 hertz and a strong unexpected peak at 8Khz. Phase distortion is well into the double digits...and all due to room interaction.

Did you implement proper room geometry, optimize interior finishes and acoustical materials placement?

And you are lecturing about your speaker quality?

Some people actually take the time to treat modal peaks and nulls, apply proper absorption to combat early reflection and comb filtering effects, and in some cases have constructed rooms with dimensions that avoid excessive modal stacking.

Oh... and some of us do listen to music played by the Boston Philharmonic. :rolleyes:

While I also believe the room is the primary factor in good sound (after some minimal level of equipment quality), speakers do play a rather large role and come in a not so distant second. In some cases addressing room problems is not an option, and looking for quality speakers is the best route to improving overall acoustics. While you are complaining about modal peaks and nulls or phase distortion (which has highly questionable audibility, btw) in your room, we can equally complain about the two hundred hertz hole in the response of your Bose speakers, or the double digit harmonic distortion.

And btw, if you took the time to look around the forum a bit more, you'd find that there are several EE's, ME's, and knowledgeable people of all types here. Cable's are snake oil, but a different attitude might serve you better in the future.

Welcome to AVS.

Pleasantly acerbic response, as expected. But you overlooked the main point. I'll listen respectfully to anyone enjoying the (fill in the blank with your favorite) Philharmonic in an acoustically compensated room without distraction.

If you're watching The Matrix DVD in your living room HT, I am not interested in your speaker soliloquy.

The MSEE comment was a parody of the tech credentials occasionally used by posters to legitimize their post. Sorry you missed it.

Originally posted by Donnernv
I can buy any audio system made without a second thought. In fact, for my latest HT I included Bose center and L/R teamed with Radio Shack rears. Why? They fit the space available and looked nice in situ. They go nicely with the NEC 50 plasma. How do they sound? Fine.
Quelle courage! Bravo!

It's not many people who would brag about being deaf! :eek: You have our sympathies, sir or madam.



Welcome, btw.

LOL :D

Poor guy, getting hammered for being proud of his B(l)ose. :p

Now can we also talk about the BOSE automotive stereo "systems"...

Anyone done any measurements and dissections of the car speakers/amps?

The Corvette Forum is definitely finding the VERY EXPENSIVE BOSE "upgrade" not to be worth the price of admission. Better off paying nothing for the stock radio, and upgrading the head unit, amps, speakers to your liking.

I've linked this thread on the Corvette Forum Here (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=955584&highlight=BOSE)

or

Here (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=908365&highlight=BOSE)

Cheers!
Doc

PS: More beer! ;)

I just don't get why a large company such as Bose would make poor speakers. Doesn't make much sense to me, so maybe they are really good speakers. I've heard them before and they do a good job

Originally posted by docrings
Now can we also talk about the BOSE automotive stereo "systems"...

Anyone done any measurements and dissections of the car speakers/amps?

The Corvette Forum is definitely finding the VERY EXPENSIVE BOSE "upgrade" not to be worth the price of admission. Better off paying nothing for the stock radio, and upgrading the head unit, amps, speakers to your liking.

I've linked this thread on the Corvette Forum Here (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=955584&highlight=BOSE)

or

Here (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=908365&highlight=BOSE)

Cheers!
Doc

PS: More beer! ;)
In general, I would not recommend paying an obscene price to get an "upgraded/premium" stereo system from the factory - especially if you had to pay all that extra $ for Bose. One can get a lot better stereo system by using the extra money himself to get custom speakers, amp, and head unit (HU).

Of course, not everyone's into modding and like having a warranty from the dealership, so they're willing to pay more for a slightly better than mediocre stereo system. :confused:

I agree. Bose offers systems for $1999 just so you can have a receiver, 6.1 sound and thats it. A tad overpriced. But I wouldn't go as far as saying their a mediocre stereo system.

What exactly is a head unit (HU)? I feel like I know what it is but just don't know of that term.

Originally posted by subwoofer
I agree. Bose offers systems for $1999 just so you can have a receiver, 6.1 sound and thats it. A tad overpriced. But I wouldn't go as far as saying their a mediocre stereo system.

What exactly is a head unit (HU)? I feel like I know what it is but just don't know of that term.

HU = radio

Originally posted by subwoofer
I just don't get why a large company such as Bose would make poor speakers. Doesn't make much sense to me, so maybe they are really good speakers. I've heard them before and they do a good job

Because they can!

A company is out to make money. Therefore if they can produce a item that costs as little money as possible, and sell for the highest possible price- the marketing department are doing a good job. A huge advertisting capaign to fool the public thinking that Bose are the best speakers in the world helps, and also helps to keep the price high (expensive=good and brand name=good) But in reality they're use cheap components, cheap build quality, don't sound very good, and are incredibly overpriced.

Sounds like the advertising campaign has got to you as well. I've heard Bose going, I would rate the "top of the range" system similar in sound quality to my £150 5.1 PC speakers.

I bet you guys think AMD makes better cpu chips than Intel? and that Cyrix was a great company 10 years ago and should have lasted :)

I guess I'm not a hater of Bose. But I didn't want to pony up the cash for something I could get better from Polk for satellites

Originally posted by subwoofer
I just don't get why a large company such as Bose would make poor speakers. Doesn't make much sense to me, so maybe they are really good speakers. I've heard them before and they do a good job

Bose cornered a niche market which has become mainstream and they benefitted from it....

When they put out their Acoustimass systems small speakers were a rarity and generally expensive.....

facts are most people want small and unobtrusive, even if it means a sacrifice in sound quality which is why we now see so many other makers moving into the small sat/sub systems (Look at Athena's new Micra, Canton's Movie series, Mirage Omnisats...etc)

Bose makes "poor" speakers for people in groups like this because their sound is not as good as larger speakers and or other sub sat systems which are harder to find and generally more expensive but people here are willing to make those sacrifices in the name of sound quality wheras joe blow is not, they want instant gratification from a well branded product.

Plus it doesn't hurt bose that they supposedly have very very good customer service.

I think subwoofers comment hits home with me a bit as I am also a techno nerd where 3DFX was the bose of the video card world and NVIDIA was the underdog....(tough to compare in speaker terms though as there are so many underdogs in terms of sales)....NVIDIA ended up overthrowing the king 3DFX and now face the same criticisms that 3DFX did in the past (lackluster product performance, high to over pricing, etc).....AMD is in the same boat when compared to Intel and I am sure should AMD overthrow Intel they will be criticised harshly....much as Polks mainstream offerings are now regarded as Trash and on par with Bose in terms of sound/build quality.

Originally posted by Mathew J
much as Polks mainstream offerings are now regarded as Trash and on par with Bose in terms of sound/build quality.

I've yet to have a customer pick Bose over Polk's low-end Monitor line in an A/B test.

Regards,
PolkThug

^thats due to name-recognition. I haven't been to a store that has Bose Acoustimass speakers and Polks RM series speakers together. Thats what I was mentioning about, the sat/sub comparison with Polk and Bose

The fact that more and more people want sat/sub systems is because they produce what you want and need for a DVD movie and digital cable tv. People don't want their ear-drums blown out or their neighbors complaining.

I wonder if there was a sat/sub that produced the exact same results as large speakers, I wonder if anyone here would approve of them? I doubt it even if they were identical. People in this place just want the large speakers for what they are worth. Interesting :)

" I wonder if there was a sat/sub that produced the exact same results as large speakers, I wonder if anyone here would approve of them? I doubt it even if they were identical. People in this place just want the large speakers for what they are worth. Interesting "

this is one of the stupidist comments I have ever read, and IMO couldnt be further from the truth.

I was just being thinking "what if". Thats all. No need to be rude about it. Typical forum poster, I'm sure you would say the exact same words to me if we were face to face.

I didnt mean it to be rude. I think the comment was totally unappropriate, and very disrespectful to the many knowledgable people who post in these forums. Your comment implies that the audio experts on this site like certain speakers simply because they are a certain size, and anybody can see that that couldnt be further from the truth.
Would I say that to your face? Youre darn straight I would.

Originally posted by biglyle
I didnt mean it to be rude. I think the comment was totally unappropriate, and very disrespectful to the many knowledgable people who post in these forums. Your comment implies that the audio experts on this site like certain speakers simply because they are a certain size, and anybody can see that that couldnt be further from the truth.
Would I say that to your face? Youre darn straight I would.

Lyle, in Sub's defense I have seen more than a few posts were contributors are very adamant in their belief that a small speaker can NEVER produce the same sound that a 5 1/4" driver can produce....and personally I feel that even if the technology came about these people would still hold fast to this argument.

I also feel that certain members tend to prefer larger speakers but there are other factors in play as well.

Sub, you're not alone and the numbers are growing in favor of those who prefer smaller speaker setups...I myself cannot fathom having a system where the components are much larger than the size of small sats.

Originally posted by biglyle
I didnt mean it to be rude. I think the comment was totally unappropriate, and very disrespectful to the many knowledgable people who post in these forums. Your comment implies that the audio experts on this site like certain speakers simply because they are a certain size, and anybody can see that that couldnt be further from the truth.
Would I say that to your face? Youre darn straight I would.

Well I didn't mean to be rude either, as others have noticed. I was just being hypothetical about a situation in a lab were they tested all ranges of speakers and all types of brands and sizes. And what if, I repeat...what if, they all had the same output. I feel that most people here would still pick up the larger speakers. As I was seeing last night at Tweeter, I noticed that the SLP model of Velodyne's subwoofer was tiny and produced similar bass to a larger sub from Mirage or Polk or Boston.

Mathew J, thank you for backing me up on this one. I agree that I don't want speakers that dwarf my tv (even when the tv is 50"). Thats what I saw last night with the SF. I would go as large as bookshelf speakers, but thats it.

I really dont think you will ever see a sattalite speaker that can rival a large one, not because I like large speakers, but because of simple physics.
I am not one who chooses products because of cosmetics. I have had a polk RM6700 sat system, and it didnt sound anything near as good as the system I have now, and the speakers I have now are not huge, only descent sized bookshelves. I would like smaller speakers as they would give me a lot more flexability in my room, however I am not willing to make the sacrafice in sound.
Speakers IMO are all about physics, and that dicates what a speaker of a certain size can realistically produce.
As for the BOSE sats, my father in law has a bose set up he paid $2400 canadian for, and it sounds like crap. That I know for sure.

Originally posted by subwoofer
Well I didn't mean to be rude either, as others have noticed.


Wait, you registered in Sept. of 04' and got the name subwoofer? Gosh, I'm surprised. Maybe nobody has a licence plate that says "Jesus" in the state of Kansas... I should go check...

Originally posted by biglyle
I really dont think you will ever see a sattalite speaker that can rival a large one, not because I like large speakers, but because of simple physics.
I am not one who chooses products because of cosmetics. I have had a polk RM6700 sat system, and it didnt sound anything near as good as the system I have now, and the speakers I have now are not huge, only descent sized bookshelves. I would like smaller speakers as they would give me a lot more flexability in my room, however I am not willing to make the sacrafice in sound.
Speakers IMO are all about physics, and that dicates what a speaker of a certain size can realistically produce.
As for the BOSE sats, my father in law has a bose set up he paid $2400 canadian for, and it sounds like crap. That I know for sure.

I know, trust me. I've had plenty of physics and EE classes in college to know that it may never happen. But I don't have a Ph.D and you never know, there might be speakers that can handle anything and could be the size of a quarter. People laughed at many ideas in the past and the usually come true.

What kind of Polk speakers do you have now and what did you do with your RM6700? Funny cause thats the exact same model I have now and I love it. What exactly are you hearing now that you didn't before or what is better about your new bookshelf speakers?

chirpie, guess I got a good name.

I'm just coming across this thread and haven't read every post, but subwoofer I'm really not sure that you do understand the physics of speakers if you're convinced that speakers as small as Bose cubes (combined with their underpowered, undersized "bass modules") are capable of accurate sound reproduction. It's true that you never know what the future holds, but for now the laws of physics seem to be obtaining quite firmly.

This looks to me to be a clear case of wanting to like something in the face of a mountain of contradictory evidence.

And I agree with lyle: if I could buy fist-sized (or even better, quarter-sized) speakers that would sound as good as (and probably cost less than) my bookshelves and towers, trust me, I'd be all over, it, as would most people here, I'm sure.

By the way, I do have a Ph.D. (though not in physics), but it doesn't take one to realize the Bose design is intrinsically and fatally flawed.

Please everyone, read what I typed. I'm just thinking out there and saying "what if".....and anything is possible if life. But I am aware that right now they cannot produce the same. However, for movies I'm barely noticing much difference when you use a great subwoofer and satellites.

Timmu, thats great that you have a Ph.D (in Policy Analyst), but I've studied physics and know a lot in that field, but not as much as someone who majored in it or has a degree in that. I decided to go with engineering instead. Remember, I'm JUST SAYING, anything is possible. Physics or no physics.

"What kind of Polk speakers do you have now and what did you do with your RM6700? Funny cause thats the exact same model I have now and I love it. What exactly are you hearing now that you didn't before or what is better about your new bookshelf speakers?"

I no longer have Polks at all now. I have Athena's all the way around. B2 fronts, C1 center, R1 sides, B1 rears

As for the Rm6700's. They forced me to set my crossover at 150 hz thanks to the stupid interal crossover they have thats set at 130hz (low pass filter as they call it), which caused a huge loss in directionality during movies. This can be confirmed by looking at my posts in the club polk forums, and the reply I recieved from the polk rep. They also sounded a lot brighter than the Athena's. I hated they way they sounded for music, and they werent much better for movies. My new speakers have a much smoother sound to them, allow me a crossover setting of 80 hz (i could go as low as 60hz with these) and just sound better in general. All the regulars to my theater have agreed.

Originally posted by biglyle
All the regulars to my theater have agreed.

I hope to someday have regulars at my home theater. Maybe even groupies. :-)

I have F1 fronts, C1 centre, B2 sides, and B1 rears. They're not the cat's a$$ but for the pittance they cost, I think they're great. And they, along with my SVS subwoofer, were a good lesson for me in the physics of loudspeakers: to produce certain frequencies you have to move a certain amount of air; there's no getting around it. That's why the B1s are such a steal - they're only entry level bookshelves but they're built like tanks and can reach down to 60 Hz and below. Unless you've got satellites that can get near that range, no matter how good your sub is, your theatre's sound is going to suffer.

Originally posted by biglyle
As for the Rm6700's. They forced me to set my crossover at 150 hz thanks to the stupid interal crossover they have thats set at 130hz (low pass filter as they call it), which caused a huge loss in directionality during movies. This can be confirmed by looking at my posts in the club polk forums, and the reply I recieved from the polk rep. They also sounded a lot brighter than the Athena's. I hated they way they sounded for music, and they werent much better for movies. My new speakers have a much smoother sound to them, allow me a crossover setting of 80 hz (i could go as low as 60hz with these) and just sound better in general. All the regulars to my theater have agreed.

Cool, glad you like your new speakers. My sub isn't anything to write home about and I set it to about 130hz or 160hz. This puts out great bass in my opinion w/o being obnoxious or having the bass control the movie. I too agree that music thru satellites are not the best. I tried listening to a CD and it was just OK, nothing wonderful.

cool, and I apologize if I sounded like an ass. It wasnt personal, I just thought you post was a jab at some of people here.

I have a set of 301's that actually sound pretty good to me. They are the oldest series of 301's made, and I use them as satellites for my HT setup. I have sony's in front that sound really good too.

You know why else they sound good? They were $10. And the sony's were $5. So...

Originally posted by subwoofer
Cool, glad you like your new speakers. My sub isn't anything to write home about and I set it to about 130hz or 160hz. This puts out great bass in my opinion w/o being obnoxious or having the bass control the movie. I too agree that music thru satellites are not the best. I tried listening to a CD and it was just OK, nothing wonderful.
With a username of "subwoofer", your subwoofer should be something to write home about. :p :D

Subwoofer, just curious, what sub are you using? Also, when you say you set it to 130 hz or 160 hz, what do you mean by that?

Originally posted by beowulf7
With a username of "subwoofer", your subwoofer should be something to write home about. :p :D

hahaha, give me some time. I only have an average Polk 303 speaker that was practically free when I got my polk speakers. I'm now in the market for a sweet subwoofer but in my 12x13x15 (W x L x H), it seems to been extremely loud as it is.

Originally posted by Timmu
Subwoofer, just curious, what sub are you using? Also, when you say you set it to 130 hz or 160 hz, what do you mean by that?

See above post, and thats the crossover

Very funny thread.

I came in to work this morning to find an excited co-worker itching to tell me about the fantastic deal he'd gotten on his "Top of the Line" Bose Home Theater system.

Regular $3000 for $1500 -- fell off the truck.

I tried to explain to him that he could have paid full retail for a host of other speakers and gotten better sound. He doesn't get it though. Thinks I'm being a snob.

I remember when I was first looking to get into home theater and I was smitten by the Bose mystique. I went into the store where I have since made all my major HT purchases. I told the guy that I was comparing with Bose. He showed me basically intro PSB Alpha AV speakers paired with a Marrantz SR480 receiver that blew away the Bose for a fraction of the price.

It's funny though all the posts about the Bose 901's. I remember when I was a young man thinking that those speakers were just the cat's ass. What was it...8 4" woofers driven seperately in a package not much bigger than a bread box. I remember a friend of mine's father had a pair of them in the front of his room suspended from the ceiling by chains and I thought that was just the ultimate. My best friend though swore by his Cerwin Vega D-9's...exactly the opposite to the Bose...Huge Box with a 15" Woofer and a couple of 4 " mid ranges plus a tweeter. I wonder if either of them were actually any good.

Darren

I assume you mean that you've set the high-pass filter on your sub to 130 or 160 hz. What is the low-pass filter set to?

^no, the two dials on the sub are volume and crossover. I set the volume to about 50% and the crossover at around 130 hz. I'm not sure where you set the high pass or low pass filter

Timmu

The polk RM6700 sats cannot go down lower than 130 hz.
So I am guessing his subs crossover is set at 130 hz, if at 160 he would be missing any sounds in 130-160 hz range.

^I never know what anyone means by missing sound. Do you mean voices or noises in the song or movie or just bass of certain things on screen?

Also, if I get another sub or speakers, would I be able to set the high and low pass filters? I need some explaination on this one

This has probably been covered in this long thread already, but the reason many people are so critical of Bose speakers is that many of them do not and *cannot* produce certain frequencies. Sound is nothing more than vibrations in the air, at certain frequencies. Most humans only hear from about 20 Hz to 20,000 Hz or so. That's why you see so many speakers claiming that they are capable of reproducing frequencies in that range. If a speaker is not physically capable of reproducing frequencies in a certain range - say for example below 130 Hz - then when the program material to which you are listening, be it a CD, a DVD, the radio, etc., has sounds in it in that range, you simply will not hear them (i.e. you won't hear the deep rumble of an explosion in a movie).

Therefore, with your Polk speakers, for example, if you are using them with nothing else (with no subwoofer, for example), you simply will not hear any sound (bass) below 130 Hz. Since most of the LFE (Low Frequency Effects, or the .1 in 5.1 or 7.1) are in the 20 - 80 Hz range (and many newer movies contain bass information that actually goes down to the 15 and 10 Hz range), you're actually not hearing *anything at all* if you don't have speakers that can play down to that range.

What all of this means, and what is germane to the discussion over the last couple of days in this thread, is that if a speaker is inherently unable to play certain large ranges of frequencies (like several Bose products), it is *by definition* inferior.

Then there is the whole other discussion of subwoofers (which you'll find in several forums here and other places, like HT Spot). One might *think* one has a decent subwoofer and feel pleased with its sound, but it may not even be playing a whole, vital range of frequencies necessary to a true theatre experience - typically frequencies in the 15 - 40 Hz range, as most cheaper subs are lucky if they can even get down to below 40 Hz. On top of that, if your satellites can only play to about 130 Hz, you are getting *very* poor integration with your subwoofer, since any frequencies above 80 Hz are localizable (you can tell the sounds are coming from the sub and not the satellites, therefore making the listening experience artificial and more contrived). There are several threads on this too, which you can find with a search.

I'm not trying to belittle your system or your ears, but while you may feel you are getting "great bass" and good sound in general from your system, if your satellites only play down to 130 Hz, and if your subwoofer is quite inexpensive (and therefore probably cannot play below 40 Hz), you're not hearing the program material as it was meant to be heard, and at the very least you're not getting "great bass." I'm also not trying to belittle you, but I would have thought an engineer would have known most of this. (Maybe your engineering degree is in a much different field?)

One other thing I've noticed in the posts above: subwoofer it seems that you're conflating volume with sound quality. You don't need large speakers to reproduce high volumes in your theatre; similarly, just because speakers are large doesn't mean they're going to "blast your neighbours away" or "burst your eardrums," or however you put it above. In fact, in addition to the inherent limitations of your system noted above, if you simply "set the volume to 50%" on your subwoofer, and didn't properly adjust your other speaker levels (as I'm guessing you didn't), then there's really no basis at all to make any substantial claims about your system's inherent performance or sound.

You might want to do a search here and on other forms on "calibration"; calibrating your system's levels is a must if you're trying to achieve accurate (and pleasing) sound. Of course if you don't care about high fidelity, then ignore all of this.

Thanks for posting all of this. I have read all of this before from somewhere, either here or another website about speaker reviews. I'm not offended by your comments and you put it very nicely. Thank you. However I was not pleased by your comment about me know this since I'm an engineer. But I'm not offended by that either. I work on computers and programming. My degree delt nothing with speakers. I learned about frequencies in the air and water in physics but I mostly slept thru that stuff.

Anyway, I see what you mean by losing frequency. My sub now can go down to 35hz. What I plan on doing is "maybe" getting a new sub so I'm going to head over to Tweeter with my sub and compare it to a $1200 one of theirs that goes down to 20hz. I'm not sure if I"m really missing that much in that 15hz range. As for feeling great bass, I sure am and its wild in movies, but I wish digital cable was a little better. That seems to be a problem with Comcast since its analog signal for certain channels. As for the other end of the frequency that I may be missing, from about 70-130hz, this I feel is being picked up from subwoofer. I see what you mean by certain sounds around there being localized, but I'm not sure if I see this as a major problem and losing any sound. When testing larger speakers at stores in closed rooms, I cannot feel or hear a difference with localization of bass to each speaker. Maybe I'll listen to a certain scene of a movie on my speakers and try it out on theirs (maybe). What first worried me with this talk was that there were background noises in movies that I was not hearing at all, which is not the case. I've read though in a few articles that having a great subwoofer is needed for satellite speakers. The point is, if you only use satellites and nothing else, they are practically worthless. This is a reason I may need a better sub.

I see what you mean by having localizing of bass in different speakers and small speakers don't handle that. In the near future, I plan on upgrading my 5.1 system to a 7.1 system by getting larger speakers up front (moving my L and R ones to the rear). Would this remove the localization problem?

Thanks for your input everyone but I'm still sold on sat/sub combo. I plan on getting a nice 50" DLP tv and I can sit the speakers on the end of a very wide table, whereas with larger speakers I cannot. I guess you could say I like both size of speakers.

Originally posted by Timmu
One other thing I've noticed in the posts above: subwoofer it seems that you're conflating volume with sound quality. You don't need large speakers to reproduce high volumes in your theatre; similarly, just because speakers are large doesn't mean they're going to "blast your neighbours away" or "burst your eardrums," or however you put it above. In fact, in addition to the inherent limitations of your system noted above, if you simply "set the volume to 50%" on your subwoofer, and didn't properly adjust your other speaker levels (as I'm guessing you didn't), then there's really no basis at all to make any substantial claims about your system's inherent performance or sound.

Well I put down larger speakers from time to time cause of their size. Plus with larger bass from them, you will be blasting your neighbors away. And I have set up my speakers correctly, thank you very much. Both myself, my friend whose an acoustic engineer, and the trusty YPAO system in my Yamaha. I'm doing just fine with my speakers.

"Would this remove the localization problem"

not really, because any localized sounds meant for your surrounds or center channel in the 80 to 130 HZ would still be going to your sub. Your sats are a far bigger problem at this point than your sub.

I also put down satellite speakers because of their very limited bass handling ability, and being unable to reproduce lower mid-bass (because of each speakers higher set crossover). You've also got the problem with the subwoofers own crossover; it has to be set higher therefore more probable of bass localization.

Speakers with a LF of 120hz or higher just sound unbearingly lacking.

I personally cannot listen to even high quality satellites, especially when it comes to CD's with minimal bass management/direction to the subwoofer.

Bigger speakers does not mean "more bassy" as you think of it, it'll just mean a high quality set reproduce mid-range far better than small drive units.

Go and listen to some standmount speakers, then compare against your sat/sub, it does sound like want to put down (better) speakers that just happen to be bigger (which you dislike)

I don't disagree with you. I think you can get great performance from sub/sat systems, with one caveat: you'll probably have to pay a lot more to get that great performance in a sub/sat system than you would in a sub and bookshelf system, for example. One of the keys is getting sats that play down to 80 Hz or so - that way you'll be able to smoothly integrate them with your sub. But it will cost you.

Subwoofer, I believe you that you calibrated, but just because speakers are larger doesn't mean their "bass" will dominate everything else. Unless of course you have massive tower speakers combined in a system with tiny satellites that can't produce the same frequencies the towers are producing. That's a different story.

I disagree slightly with lyle on the larger-speakers-up-front-and-sats-as-surrounds issue. You'll still get localization, but it shouldn't be as noticeable since less bass information is typically sent to surround speakers in movies (music's a different story of course), and therefore you won't notice it as much. Ideally you have speakers of whatever size all over your theatre that are: a) all the same model, b) can play down to at least 80 Hz, and of course c) sound good.

If you're thinking of upgrading, I'd look at some of the cheap but stellar-performing, mainly Internet-direct subs out there, like Hsu (e.g. STF-2 or VTF-2) and SVS (e.g. PB10-ISD) (I've also heard good things about Dayton). As lyle said though, good satellites are important too.

Again this is not meant in any way to be offensive, but until you've really experienced 20 Hz and sub-20 Hz bass during a movie at reference levels (i.e. 105 dB), you really don't know what you're missing. I thought I had a good subwoofer (Athena AS-P400) until I got my SVS. The Athena was good at $400 USD, but the SVS is in a completely different universe. If you really want the movie experience, first save up and buy a very good sub, and then later on buy small bookshelves or satellites (if that's what you prefer) that play down to 80 Hz or below. If you ended up with a system like this: SVS PB10-ISD and Athena AS-B1s all around, or Axiom M2i's all around, you would have MORE than a respectable, awesome sounding home theatre, and it wouldn't break the bank.

I have and I'm liking both. I feel like I'm getting great sound of our my sats/sub. I guess we just have our differences

"I feel like I'm getting great sound of our my sats/sub."

Great, no one is knocking that. All we are saying is that if you heard a better system in your home in a side by side test with yours, you would no doubt see a differance. I know I did.
If looking for a sub, you can also try Velodyne, they make a pretty solid unit at a fair price.

Thats the one I checked out at Tweeter, very cool. Check out my thread for "DO I need more Bass?" I talk about it there.

I wouldn't mind having a side by side test in my HT but I don't know how I'm going to set that one up. I just can't borrow the speakers from stores. I've done the A-B test at the store and (as I have said earlier), I do notice a difference but not that big of one to spare the space for larger speakers. Right now I blew my money on a big couch, and soon a big DLP tv. Thats why sat/sub was perfect for me.

Originally posted by DJ_JonnyV
Easy there, trigger, you're about to put a burr under my saddle. I happen to work for the company that brews what you refer to as "vile dreck". FYI, Budweiser is brewed identical at all breweries throughout the United States and at their contract brewing partners throughout the world. The only difference being water source. I really don't take too kindly to you badmouthing such an established product in the beer industry. Budweiser here in the states has a very crisp, clean, refreshing taste to it, and while it may not meet everybody's taste preferences (similar to speakers), it doesn't deserve the criticism you just gave it. Budweiser is brewed under some of the tightest quality controls in manufacturing (brewing), and use some of the finest ingredients you'll find at any price point. You have no idea of the amount of quality that goes into every serving of Budweiser.

I do not mean to hijack this thread, but at the same time I can't stand around and do nothing.

I was reading this thread hopinh someone would stick up for our home town name sake. My dad and good buddy are both emplyed at AB, and i will concur, that one of the best aspects of the beer is that it tastes the same here in St. Louis as it does anywhere in the world.

And yes, I agree that it is top notch, by the way, so does 40% of the worlds beer drinkers.

that one of the best aspects of the beer is that it tastes the same here in St. Louis as it does anywhere in the world

not to knock Bud ,BUT ....There is a town I've been to called Budviesen (sp?) , as well as another called Mikelob (again sp?) where the beer recipe is very similar to the recipes used by the american versions of similar names (both pilsners , after Pilsen ,another town in Check repub) ...the differance in taste however, is HUGE and unmistakable due to several elements...first PASTUERIZATION, second ADDITIVES, third POOR INGREDIANTS......not A-B's fault , just impossible to "hand select" 450 metric tons of Hops and Grain ...alas, I sit hear with a Belvedere Martini and I digress ...back to the thread

Originally posted by subwoofer
hahaha, give me some time. I only have an average Polk 303 speaker that was practically free when I got my polk speakers. I'm now in the market for a sweet subwoofer but in my 12x13x15 (W x L x H), it seems to been extremely loud as it is.
What is the woofer size and what is the wattage rating of that Polk 303? (I'm being lazy by not searching for it on the 'net. :o.) If you think it's loud enough and are happy w/ its quality, than all the merrier. :)

Without bothering to read the previous 10+ pages....

Just go listen. Compare them to a recommended speaker, and you judge....If you're happy, that's All that counts. I would be amazed if you chose Bose over another brand. You should feel comfortable with your choice. If, for whatever reason, you choose Bose, you should have your reasons....and I'd love to hear them.

Originally posted by beowulf7
What is the woofer size and what is the wattage rating of that Polk 303? (I'm being lazy by not searching for it on the 'net. :o.) If you think it's loud enough and are happy w/ its quality, than all the merrier. :)

Eh, I'm lazy too :) Here's the specs: http://www.polkaudio.com/home/specs.php?category=7&speaker=319

I know I can do better, I'm not saying this is a wonderful subwoofer. But right now, it seems to be doing the trick. If I need a better one too, I need to see if the low pass filter on it will go as high as 120 or 130hz since I have satellites

"I need to see if the low pass filter on it will go as high as 120 or 130hz since I have satellites"

this is what the crossover is for.

Originally posted by biglyle
"I need to see if the low pass filter on it will go as high as 120 or 130hz since I have satellites"

this is what the crossover is for.

Hmmmm, now I need help. So what is the difference with crossover and low pass filter? and what should they be set at?

http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

"Hmmmm, now I need help. So what is the difference with crossover and low pass filter? and what should they be set at?"

DO you use the crossover setting on your reciever?

If so, in your case it needs to be set to 130 hz, your reciever most likely wont allow this so you will need to set it at 150hz, as most go up in 50hz increments.
Then set your subs crossover to the highest setting, turn the knob all the way up.
Set the volume at about 12-1 o'clock, and adjuxt the sub control on your reciever until the volume of the sub blends with the other speakers.

Originally posted by subwoofer
Eh, I'm lazy too :) Here's the specs: http://www.polkaudio.com/home/specs.php?category=7&speaker=319

I know I can do better, I'm not saying this is a wonderful subwoofer. But right now, it seems to be doing the trick. If I need a better one too, I need to see if the low pass filter on it will go as high as 120 or 130hz since I have satellites
That's not a bad little sub. 8", 28 Hz low, and 100 W continuous is a good apt. sub, but I'm sure if cranked too high, it'll upset the neighbors. :D

I currently have a 6" sub that actually came w/ my computer speakers that I'm using out in the living room in my ghetto home theater system. :o Even that thing can crank and shake the walls. :eek:

Actually, the specs for that sub are 28 Hz as the low end of the "overall frequency response." Polk lists the -3 db limit as 35 Hz, although it doesn't specify if that rating is anechoic. What it *actually* can do is another story; you'd need valid test results to know that; the few reviews I found of the entire system did not have any actual measurements for the sub's response. But even if it did play to 35 Hz within a +/- 3 db window, that means that anyone who owns it is getting much less than a flat response (if *any* response) from 35 Hz and below (almost an entire octave in the audible range!), which again, as stated above, is the crucial range in the LFE channel in many recent DVDs; you're missing entire sound effects in whatever you're watching even if you're not aware of it. Any claims or evaluations about this sub's "great bass" must therefore be taken with that grain of salt.

Of course one person's idea of great bass might be completely different from another's. With that said, there's little question this is an entry level system that cannot begin to compete with good bookshelf/full range systems and true subwoofers.

Originally posted by Timmu
Actually, the specs for that sub are 28 Hz as the low end of the "overall frequency response." Polk lists the -3 db limit as 35 Hz, although it doesn't specify if that rating is anechoic. What it *actually* can do is another story; you'd need valid test results to know that; the few reviews I found of the entire system did not have any actual measurements for the sub's response. But even if it did play to 35 Hz within a +/- 3 db window, that means that anyone who owns it is getting much less than a flat response (if *any* response) from 35 Hz and below (almost an entire octave in the audible range!), which again, as stated above, is the crucial range in the LFE channel in many recent DVDs; you're missing entire sound effects in whatever you're watching even if you're not aware of it. Any claims or evaluations about this sub's "great bass" must therefore be taken with that grain of salt.

Of course one person's idea of great bass might be completely different from another's. With that said, there's little question this is an entry level system that cannot begin to compete with good bookshelf/full range systems and true subwoofers.

I guess so. That can be stated as an opinion though cause its all a matter of what you compare yourself to. Some of my friends thought I was crazy to get these speakers cause of their high price. But then again, these are people that get the Sony or Yamaha home theater system at Best Buy cause they just don't care as much as we do. I don't see that much of a sound difference (with movies) when comparing 4 foot high speakers to satellites. But as I stated above, its all a matter of opinion and perception. Heck, I know some people who barely notice or care about tv speakers compared to a 7.1 sound system.

I never said my sub was anything to write home about, so please don't knock it. As my other thread has mentioned, I need to bring my sub down to Tweeter and compare it against some of their bigger and more powerful subs and ones that go down to 20hz and lower. What I really need to do is know of a scene in a movie that uses those frequencies so that i can hear the difference and see if its worth upgrading

Originally posted by subwoofer
I need to bring my sub down to Tweeter and compare it against some of their bigger and more powerful subs and ones that go down to 20hz and lower. What I really need to do is know of a scene in a movie that uses those frequencies so that i can hear the difference and see if its worth upgrading

You won't be able to hear a better subwoofer going lower (esp sub 20hz), in fact it'll probably disappear and seem to be less audible, as cheaper subs boom, parp and distort. So cheapest subs appear like they're there but in actual fact just hearing midbass boom.

I can't actually hear my SVS when the rest of the system is on, even if it's set much louder than the rest. I can tell there's a really low end, but I don't hear parping bass and think "yeah that sound is coming from my sub"

btw my floorstanders are 5' high, 30Kg each and sound fab. They're a class above any satellite speakers, anyone who listens to high quality sound (and is not deaf) should notice the difference between decent towers & satellite & standmounts straight away.

"Some of my friends thought I was crazy to get these speakers cause of their high price. But then again, these are people that get the Sony or Yamaha home theater system at Best Buy cause they just don't care as much as we do."

I hate to say this, but some of those yamaha and sony HTIB's have sats that actually go much lower than those polks. SOme of the Yammy HTIBs sound better all around.

"I don't see that much of a sound difference (with movies) when comparing 4 foot high speakers to satellites. But as I stated above, its all a matter of opinion and perception."

Then you must be partly deaf, or have never actually heard a good system. It is not a matter of opinion, perception maybe, but definately not opinion.

"What I really need to do is know of a scene in a movie that uses those frequencies so that i can hear the difference and see if its worth upgrading"

Most any action movie made in the last 3 years will LFE that goes below 25 hz.

Again I say, upgrading your sub is not near as important as upgrading your speakers. Hell a set of athena sats would be better, as they go down 80hz at least, cost half as much as the polks and actually sound better. (I have had both so I know from experience)
You will not see much differance from a new sub, at least not nearly as much as you will from better speakers. Buying a high quality sub in your case would be like buying high performance tires for a Ford Escort.

What fatbottom wrote about "not hearing your sub" is true, in my experience and the reported experiences of others: clean, low, and accurate bass is often less noticeable than bloated midbass produced by bass modules; however, when a really good LFE scene hits, there's really nothing like it.

If you're thinking of upgrading, there are plenty of threads on good subwoofer test DVDs, but here are some of the best:

Titan A.E. (Ice fields scene)
Toy Story 2 (Intro. scene)
Blackhawk Down (F'ing Irene scene)
Fight Club (various)
Saving Private Ryan (Beach scene and last battle scene)
Finding Nemo (Sub sliding and glass tap scenes)

Only a true subwoofer will even reproduce some of these low frequency effects. For example, the Blackhawk Down scene has been measured to have bass content in the 10 Hz range. 10 Hz! My PB12-ISD/2 ($899 USD) barely reaches down that far in its lowest tune of 16 Hz (let alone with authority), and several $2000 USD subs cannot even get close. Most effects hover more in the 20 Hz to 40 Hz range, but sub-20 Hz content is becoming increasingly common in more and more DVDs.

Not trying to knock your equipment subwoofer, just restating that there is indeed a difference between 8" 100 watt subs and 2x12" 600 watt subs, even if you don't hear it (as there is also a diff. between $500, 130-20,0000 Hz satellites and $2000, 25-23,0000 Hz towers).

Of course many of us can't afford $2000 towers (myself included); but *that doesn't mean you can't get full range, great quality sound for much less*; as lyle stated, you can get great sound (including clean, tight bass down to 20 Hz or so) for under $1000 USD.

Titan A.E. (Ice fields scene)
Toy Story 2 (Intro. scene)
Finding Nemo (Sub sliding and glass tap scenes)

I would be careful with those demo scenes with a budget sub ...you don't want the cone to shoot across the room! :-D

Well I guess you could do it...you've got a reason to upgrade your blown sub!

Just for the record lyle, I have 20/20 vision and perfect hearing. Lets also mention that I'm only 23 and am doing very well with a great sound system. How old are you guys anyway? :)

I just don't get how you guys think that Polk or Bose puts out a terrible sound. I HAVE listened to both and spending $500 on sats or $2000 on just large fronts is not worth the extra frequency.

Ever wonder why people in the audio threads are hateful while the people in video threads are helpful and caring and appreciate each and everyones systems?

Originally posted by subwoofer


Ever wonder why people in the audio threads are hateful while the people in video threads are helpful and caring and appreciate each and everyones systems?

Bose=nonOAR ;)


oops, hope that wasn't a thread killer

I haven't read this entire thread but I haven't seen anyone being hateful in the last 4 pages of it, at the very least.

What I think you're seeing is a reaction to uninformed statements like "there's nothing wrong with Bose" and "my $600 satellites and 8 inch sub are awesome. There's no difference between them and expensive towers + a good 12" sub." I'm paraphrasing here, of course. Even saying in your last post that a speaker is "not worth the extra frequency" demonstrates that you completely misunderstand what you're talking about. There are no "extra frequencies"; if it is good sound that is desired (and your posts indicate you do desire it), then only someone completely ignorant of the principles of audio would start off with speakers that miss part of the audio spectrum and yet still claim they're getting "great sound."

I've seen threads like this before: threads in which people can't understand why they're being challenged and then react badly to it. The reason is simple: everyone can have an opinion, but when you make your opinion public and it's not based upon sound knowledge or even personal experience (i.e. you've never even heard clean, sub-35 Hz bass) you'd better expect to be taken to task.

Subwoofer, I don't think anyone here, including lyle and myself, begrudge you or your system. We're happy you're happy with it. That's what really matters. But personally, one of my biggest irks, and what prompted my interest here, is ignorance - people waxing on and on about things which they know little about. If you keep insisting upon claiming that your inherently limited speakers (as well as Bose' inherently flawed speakers) sound as good as much bigger, more expensive, and irrefutably more capable and better designed speakers, you're flying in the face of decades of research and personal experience by very knowledgeable people (I don't include myself here, BTW), and quite simply, you're wrong. Are you really surprised that you were challenged on that?

If you don't want to be challenged like this the next time you decide to share your opinion, find out what a low pass filter is, or experience 20 Hz LFE for yourself before you come on here and claim that everyone's inherently biased against Bose, or that no one is open to future developments in the physics of sound. That's called credibility.

For the record I'm 33, and I can't say I was surprised to hear your age. Also, I have nothing against Polk; I've owned 2 sets of their bookshelves in the past and they were great. Again you've missed the point: it's not about the brand, it's about the capabilities of the model in question.

Great reply Timmu.

I agree 100%. I dont understand how you can call any of our comments hateful.

I for one have no desire to belittle you or your system, but if you ask a question, dont get upset when you dislike the answer.

I have ownder the Polk speakers you have now, and for a while I too thought they sounded great. It isnt until you hear something better that you realize what you are missing.
I was a fan of polk prior to my purchase of the 6700's. My father owned polks and they always sounded great. My problem is that Polk mis advertises the 6700 sats, much the same way Bose marketing uses deceptive methods. Polk talks about the frequency responce of this system, but they always include the sub in the spec. They say the 6700's go from 30hz to 20,000 hz, they never clearly give you the actual range of the sats themselves. They do this because they know that the numbers are not very good.

You are talking about replacing your sub, you were givin options and info galore.

I mentioned upgrading the speakers first because in this case it would give you the best results. If that is hateful, then I am clearly missing something.

You came talking big talk about being an engineer, yet seem to have very little technical knowledge or the willingness to want to learn about the subject you first brought up. This does not seem to me like someone with a very open mind on the quest for knowledge.

I am 34, successfully self employed for 8 years, and am only trying to offer what knowledge I have obtained (be it very limited) over the last few years of reading this great forum. So if that comes accross as hateful, then I will no longer reply to your questions and respectfully say, ask someone else.

I'm going to be brief again.....with your paragraph about me not getting what research and personal experience have in comparing floorstanding vs sat/sub system and frequency holes is completely science related. I'm not knocking that since I've probably had more science classes here than most. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to know that you can produce more bass and crisper sound with larger speakers. The same goes for comparing a Porsche Boxster to a high-end Honda. The Porsche may be ranked better and sound better and go slightly faster, but the average joe isn't going to feel, see, or notice the difference. Thats all I'm saying guys, I don't mean to offend anyone or tick anyone off. If I did, I'm very sorry. I'm just simply saying that most people, including myself, don't notice a big difference with floorstanding and sats/sub systems. I have done the comparision and I notice a very slight difference in movies (once again, let me say that, moooovies), whereas there is a huge difference with music. I have decided that one day when I get a bigger condo or house, I will upgrade to bookshelves or a 7.1 system so I can have my satellites as the surrounds.

And I can't say that I am also surprised at your age. So we're even :)

"...since I've probably had more science classes here than most..."

that's just funny.

Originally posted by biglyle
You came talking big talk about being an engineer, yet seem to have very little technical knowledge or the willingness to want to learn about the subject you first brought up. This does not seem to me like someone with a very open mind on the quest for knowledge.

I am 34, successfully self employed for 8 years, and am only trying to offer what knowledge I have obtained (be it very limited) over the last few years of reading this great forum. So if that comes accross as hateful, then I will no longer reply to your questions and respectfully say, ask someone else.

Well thats not very nice of you. I might have come in here saying I was intelligent, but I never said I'm the smartest guy when it comes to acoustics. I know my way around them though and know alot more than most.

And congrats to you and I agree that this is a great forum for knowledge. I have been open to many ideas and will probably upgrade sometime soon (or in a few years). Never know. I was just stating that I'm happy with what I got now and its perfect for most people. I guess I just don't care to blow more money on speakers when you say I'm losing frequency when I can't notice. Thanks for your help.

Originally posted by devinjc
"...since I've probably had more science classes here than most..."

that's just funny.

haha, I know. I was joking around anyway. Its just a joke :)

"Back off man, I'm a scientist" - Bill Murray

""...since I've probably had more science classes here than most...""

comments like this won't win you very many friends around here.

"The same goes for comparing a Porsche Boxster to a high-end Honda. The Porsche may be ranked better and sound better and go slightly faster, but the average joe isn't going to feel, see, or notice the difference."

LOL, the average joe wouldnt notice a differance? Now I have heard it all.

Originally posted by Carl Brinkman


The other point folks need to recognize is that in the Bose factory stores the customer experiences about as pleasant an experience as I have ever encountered in many years of buying audio gear. None of the typical high-end BS like "what are your goals", no trashing of your current components, just a lot of enthusiastiac sales reps eager to show off something they truley believe in.


LOL I have never set foot in a Blose store but sounds like the only thing they are missing is a table covered with little dixie cups full of their "koolaid."

put on these sweatpants son, and have a seat in the comfy chair.......

For some reason I get arrested for just wearing white pants whilst outside. Dunno why, as that's what you Americans wear, yet you don't get arrested!

:-D

Originally posted by biglyle
I really dont think you will ever see a sattalite speaker that can rival a large one, not because I like large speakers, but because of simple physics.
I am not one who chooses products because of cosmetics. I have had a polk RM6700 sat system, and it didnt sound anything near as good as the system I have now, and the speakers I have now are not huge, only descent sized bookshelves. I would like smaller speakers as they would give me a lot more flexability in my room, however I am not willing to make the sacrafice in sound.
Speakers IMO are all about physics, and that dicates what a speaker of a certain size can realistically produce.
As for the BOSE sats, my father in law has a bose set up he paid $2400 canadian for, and it sounds like crap. That I know for sure.

And this is where members of AVS and other boards are unable to put their personal opinions aside and understand that others have different wants/needs/priorities....

Opposite of you I cannot chose a product solely on sound ignoring aesthetics....I will not settle for having a monstrosity of a speaker system in my house no matter what the quality. While I agree a Sub/Sat system will not reproduce sound nearly as efficiently nor as cheaply as bookshelves or larger I also feel more than a few of them come damn close, or at least close enough where I will not care about any lost translation.

You yourself even admit that you would enjoy smaller speakers but because of the sound quality you are willing to sacrifice realestate and get something larger and more cumbersome....I am willing to take the hit in sound in order to have the flexible system which is also aesthetically pleasing.

With regards to the Bose, again it depends on who is listening...while it may sound like crap to you, to someone else it may sound just fine....I myself have heard numerous sub/sat combos along with floorstanders and bookshelves...the larger speakers do sound "fuller" but in every instance they are considerably larger than the sub sat combos, and some of the sats sound darn nice....nice enough where I would easily chose one over something even as small as bookshelves.

Mathew

I agree with you.
However for the money (or much less) there are much much better sat/sub combos than the ones Bose and Polk offer.

The point was, even though these systems can sound very very good, they will never be as good as many full size set ups. Again however, this is choice we all have to make. Sound versus aesthetics. Many sat/sub combos such as the gallo line are a great balance of the two IMO.

I was at a birthday party for one of my son's friends. One of the fathers there that is loaded is building a entertainment room and is adding air hockey, foosball and for HT is installing a 60+ plasma and a HD2+ DLP projector. He didnt know the brands as he is having someone doing all the work. When I asked him what audio system they were putting in, he told me they were putting in a Bose system. I figured that since this guy was probably spending a fortune on everything else that he should at least get a decent audio system or at least one that matches the level of his video. I told him that I would help him choose another system if he needed my help as Bose wasnt well regarded in the audio world, but that he should at the very least tell his guy to not buy the Bose (assuming it wasnt too late) Unfortunately one of the mothers there overheard me and told me she had some Bose speaker and that she loved them. I of course had to backtrack on my tirade on Bose speakers but it eventually ended when she realized we were talking about a surround sound system and not her pair of stereo speakers

Its funny its all about hype. This guy probably spent a bundle on plasma because thats all he has heard of not realizing that you can get DLP or Dila RPTV. Its the same with Bose, if you probably did a survey of the one speaker brand people know, Bose would probably be it. Thats a great accomplishment for Bose and no one should take that away from them. On the other hand, a local morning talk show host was bragging about how she had the newest lastest and greatet RPTV and it was the new in tech beating out plasma. I knew she was talking about DLP rptv but she thought it was the coolest because her salesman told her so

This thread is becoming pretty entertaining. :D

One of my best anti-Bose moves has been convincing my father that Bose was not the way to go for his HTS. We wound up buying Athena speakers. :)

Also, my car came w/ a Bose sound system featuring a wimpy "woofer" in the hatch. I dutifully augmented that with a more capable (aftermarket) sub. :D

Originally posted by biglyle
Mathew

I agree with you.
However for the money (or much less) there are much much better sat/sub combos than the ones Bose and Polk offer.

The point was, even though these systems can sound very very good, they will never be as good as many full size set ups. Again however, this is choice we all have to make. Sound versus aesthetics. Many sat/sub combos such as the gallo line are a great balance of the two IMO.

Lyle, please don't misinterpret my intentions :) I am not here to champion Bose the company nor their product, I was simply stating as you also noted that there are different strokes for different folks.....


My beef is when someone comes to these boards, not knowing of the brands...but pretty set on what they want from an aesthetic standpoint ...when they ask recommendations they get many responses telling them that sub/sats are a waste and bookshelf or bigger is the "only" way to go.

Also those who try to compare bookshelf or larger in sound quality to sub sat systems and then also factor in price, maybe I am the one who is off the wall but personally I realise that the smaller system will cost more and will also not sound as full automatically due to its physical size limitations, but I also assume that anyone willing to consider a smaller system is also willing to take these limitations along with the choice and knows full well (or at least has some idea) of what they are getting into beforehand without knowing the technical specifications.

With price though I think we might be at a disagreement again depending on what you are talking about....

If you are talking about the straight lower end Acoustimass systems (6, and 10) and the Polk RM6700? (not sure of the model) then I have yet to really see any other decent sub/sat systems that cost considerably less...if anthing from a price standpoint they are all about on par (About $600-$1100)...however when you start looking at the Bose Lifestyle systems and their integrated components, well that is when things get silly.

The only really "affordable" and good Sub sat systems I have personally seen are the Rocket Tykes (not too keen on their visuals though and the price isn't rock bottom) and the HSU setup....but even that is still upwards of $600 with the Sub.

I myself am looking at either the Canton Movie 6 or the Movie 10 package and neither of those are much more or less than the Acoustimass 6 or 10 however they are far more difficult to find.

Look at the Athena poinr 5 or micra 6, both are great values.

MICRA 6 (http://www.athenaspeakers.com/micra6SystemSpeakers.htm)

POINT 5 (http://www.athenaspeakers.com/micra6SystemSpeakers.htm)

both but the BOSE lifestyle and POLK sats to shame

cheers

Ok, ive seen this thread going back and forth, usually from people who like music but are new HiFi, or surround sound. Ill give bose a bit of credit, they where one of the first companies to promote a separate unit to handle base frequencies (I.E. Sub) which is cool, it allows us all to have some rockin Left and Rights! Also ill give Bose an A+ on marketing. Besides that i loath Bose. I work for a High End A/V Store, i encounter people coming in all the Time, "what about bose". Its getting harder and harder not to sigh in there face. What I truly hate about bose, They take all the romance out of this wonderful field! People have listed many systems that sound better than bose, and they are right. What bose does is take advantage of people that want surround sound, but have no knowledge of this industry, instead of taking an individual, and teaching them, Stereo Imaging, THX or DTS Surround formats, and what it is truly suppose to happen. Its absolutly amazing, ill sit with a new client, and teach them about HiFi, show them what to listen for, point out a truly supurb Stereo setup, then just watch there eyes open and smile pop on there face. Thats the romance of HiFi, not crappy satelites in a box. Another post mentioned how bose was a solution, "it has everything someone needs" BS, Me as a consumer, i would much rather someone sit down and show me my options, let me know what im spending my money on, why this is better. Its fun spending money on A/V gear, i think we all will agree on that, and 90 percent of the public enjoys it as well!

anyway just some thoughts, flame or praise, i still wish bose a horrible and miserable bankruptcy :P

Ok., I'll admit it , I worked for Bose MANY, MANY, MOONS AGO, and I used to train guys in the Bose stores and Big Box retailers (as well as direct marketers) how to do the "dog & pony" show......the fact is that in abscense of comparison most well conducted demos will blow most people away......I VENTURE TO SAY THAT WITH A WELL SET-UP "BLIND" DEMO THERE ARE MANY EVEN HERE ON THIS FORUM (not you of course) WHO MIGHT BE SURPRISED AT WHAT THEY HEARD. I have stated before that I like my Ipod and mediocre car stereo just fine but having BEEN EXPOSED TO FINE AUDIO GEAR for years, I have come to know the differance.

There are many here who are satisfied with mediocre bookshelves and a bloated , slow , albiet high output, low reaching sub who "poo-poo" the satelitte speakers of others , while saying that floorstanders are unneccesary, I disagree with these people as well...it's just that we all have our own threshholds for what we consider acceptable. As we move up and up in higher end equipment we often stop at a place where the differances seem to be to small to warrant (ussually, whether we admit it or not, it's price related) the upgrade....exposure to better items seems to be the key...I have never heard a person who had more money than God comment that he enjoyed driving his honda as much as his ferrari....Start listening to gear WELL over your preice threshold and start working your way down...you will probably understand it then......I like macdonalds, but given the choice would rather dine at Ruths Chris......

I just wanted to expand on the frequency response issue with subwoofers (not the poster name but the speaker). An important question is whether the -3db point of the polk is 35Hz anechoic (outdoors or special room) or in a room. If it is anechoic then in an small room with few openings the actual response will not be nearly as bad as the spec suggests. As the room amplifies frequencies whose wavelength are larger than the room. Even if it is in a room should your room be smaller than the one polk used you will again get some boost from what the spec says.

At first I figured anechoic, but then I thought that would probably be a bad idea for a mass market sub. Then, the question is what 28Hz overall response means? Is that -10db? When the speakers Xmax (throw) is exceeded at 100W?

My point is that in a small room -3db at 35Hz could actually go a bit lower depending on how the sub rolls off from that point. So, subwoofer (the user) could be getting response down into the 28Hz or below area depending on the room.

To help subwoofer (the user) with selecting a new subwoofer (the speaker), flat anechoic repsonse down to 20Hz is not what you want in a subwoofer in a typical room. The in room response will have a hump in the 30-20Hz area. depending on the room size. You want the sub to start rolling off around 30-25Hz (depending on room size) so that when combined with the room response you get as flat a response as possible (excluding room modes which is a different effect).

My link above explains exactly "why not Bose?"

Originally posted by Dastardly
My point is that in a small room -3db at 35Hz could actually go a bit lower depending on how the sub rolls off from that point. So, subwoofer (the user) could be getting response down into the 28Hz or below area depending on the room.

To help subwoofer (the user) with selecting a new subwoofer (the speaker), flat anechoic repsonse down to 20Hz is not what you want in a subwoofer in a typical room. The in room response will have a hump in the 30-20Hz area. depending on the room size. You want the sub to start rolling off around 30-25Hz (depending on room size) so that when combined with the room response you get as flat a response as possible (excluding room modes which is a different effect).

Hahaha, this is a funny post but very helpful. Thank you. I guess I could get a meter and check out to see how low my sub goes, but I'm not sure if I want to waste money on that. I just got done watching Return of the King: EE and damn that was great. The bass when the Orcs were using the battering ram was amazing! Its scenes like that I wonder how low the bass is.

My question is: What do I set the crossover to on the receiver and what do I set the low pass filter on the sub? How do those two relate?

Originally posted by TheGizzard
Before you guys start pounding, I must confess to being a total speaker newbie.

Bose appears to be almost universally NOT recommended on this board.

For a product that is so popular in the mainstream, with what appears to be a decent range of products (cost wise)... Why does everyone dismiss them?

Why not two tin cans and a string? ;)

i feel so sad that when i buy a mercedes it comes with a blose instead of a mark levinson =(

Why would Bose speakers in a car be that bad as compared to other brands?

Originally posted by subwoofer
Hahaha, this is a funny post but very helpful. Thank you. I guess I could get a meter and check out to see how low my sub goes, but I'm not sure if I want to waste money on that. I just got done watching Return of the King: EE and damn that was great. The bass when the Orcs were using the battering ram was amazing! Its scenes like that I wonder how low the bass is.

My question is: What do I set the crossover to on the receiver and what do I set the low pass filter on the sub? How do those two relate?

Providing some basic info, not saying your stupid, but just adding it so there is no confusion:

Set youre reciever x-over filter >130Hz (Low pass filters pass the signal below the stated frequency, in this case, all sounds below 130Hz will be sent to the sub, above that (high pass filter) will go to the sats)

On your sub, set the X-over as high as possible. This is a low pass filter so frequencies above the cutoff are filtered out. The reason you don't want the low pass reciever setting and the sub filter matching is that you will double the slope of the filter causing a gap in the sound field.

As for not needing an anechoic flat sub down to <20Hz.. Sorry, wrong... Yes there is room gain BUT you also need to take into account your hearing ability and the fact that room gain is nowhere near the same slope as a typical subs decay below a -3db point. The lower a frequencey goes, the harder it is for any human to hear a particular volume. What this sounds like is a prefectly flat sub will sound like it is getting quieter and quiter as it goes lower.

While some people will say that this is ideal (which for music I can see the arguments) for HT, it's not a lot of fun. Establishing a good house curve is essential for having a really good HT experience (the whole "Wow" factor) My ideal setup would be solidly flat to ~30Hz, slight rise to 20Hz, and then a 5db/octive slope up until the sub runs out of gas. Other people have their own preffered sound but it is almost universally accepted that when you go really low (<25hz), you need to have some sort of increase in volume.

Another thought, those demo seens are protected by another high pass filter at the bottom so people using subs like that won't ever know that they aren't missing.

To quote someone else: "Those who don't know, don't know that they don't know" :D

Originally posted by TheGizzard
Why does everyone dismiss them? I attribute it to a combination of elitism and groupspeak. A bonding of people through rebellion against populist ideas. The concept that appreciation and enjoyment of a speakers sound is subjective, consequently, a "good" speaker is in the ear of the beholder, is unfathomable. Their popularity must be through the marketing by Bose or the ignorance of the consumer.

Originally posted by David James
Their popularity must be through the marketing by Bose or the ignorance of the consumer.

Its both. When I do an A/B test for customers, they are always stunned at how poorly the Bose cubes sound, especially if they are fresh from the Bose store. The problem is that Bose makes it very difficult for consumers to hear Bose cubes in an A/B test. My store isn't really set up for it but I go out of my way to demonstrate it for them.

Regards,
PolkThug

Originally posted by David James
I attribute it to a combination of elitism and groupspeak. A bonding of people through rebellion against populist ideas. The concept that appreciation and enjoyment of a speakers sound is subjective, consequently, a "good" speaker is in the ear of the beholder, is unfathomable. Their popularity must be through the marketing by Bose or the ignorance of the consumer.

David I have to agree with your first two points wholeheartedly....I have met far too many in the various enthusiast circles I have been involved in who had no first hand knowledge, experience or anything about some products but bashed because it was all the rage within the group because said product was popular with the masses and more pricey than the competition....

their success was always, and I mean ALWAYS attributed to marketing and not much more...and even if the comany had better than most customer service this mattered little as the products were overpriced, appreciated by the noobs or "uneducated" and not as technically advanced/refined as the lesser known other offerings.