Phloyd,

Tell us more about this company, their products, and what was shown at CES 2004.

Thanks,

Chris

Hi all,

At CES we were happy to demonstrate our new 1920x1080 panels. It seemed that we generated some interest there and were happy overall with the response at the show.

As I find time I will post information about the panels and more specifically the set up that we showed at CES.

For a start, feel free to check out our website here. (http://www.elcos.com/)

I include again a link to the Kolin press release here. (http://www.china-tft.com/news_info/Shtml/20040112_3555.htm)

Thanks for your interest - more as I find the time.

Cheers!
DAve.

__________________

Disclaimer: These comments are all my opinion and do not represent any official stance from eLCOS. I am just an engineer - sometimes I think that the marketing guys would prefer it if I didn't talk to anyone...! :)

The 1080p solution that we demonstrated at CES uses our 0.7 inch LCoS imagers. It is a three panel system with a controller for each channel. The controller board accepts standard DVI and maps one to one on each panel for each colour. So the controller board must be fed 1920 x 1080 progressively over DVI. We have operated two modes - one being 60 (or 59.94) fps one to one and the second was 24 fps displayed at 72 fps. We were using 59.94 fps at CES.

The three panels are slightly different and are tuned to give the best response to the red, green or blue wavelength. The pixels on each panel are approx. 8.1 microns square. We are using a digital modulation to generate the grey scale as opposed to driving an analogue level, so in that sense we are kinda like DLP. However we do get some averaging effect / filtering as we switch faster than the response time of the liquid crystal. This allows us to use relatively low voltage silicon to keep the cost down. Our goal is not so much to compete with Sony SXRD and JVC D-ILA in the $20k+ projector market, more to offer 1080p resolutions at the $5k level for RPTV - so we are aiming for material that is relatively easy and cheap to make in mass quantities.

There are other advantages to using digital modulations with respect to taking care of non-linearity in the LC response. These things can be taken care of in the digital domain.

Feel free to ask questions. I will answer as I find time - assuming it is not sensitive information :)

Cheers!
DAve.

__________________

Disclaimer: These comments are all my opinion and do not represent any official stance from eLCOS. I am just an engineer - sometimes I think that the marketing guys would prefer it if I didn't talk to anyone...! :)

Originally posted by Phloyd
... The controller board accepts standard DVI and maps one to one on each panel for each colour. So the controller board must be fed 1920 x 1080 progressively over DVI.

Am I understanding correctly that the Kolin HDTV will accept 1080p input through DVI?

Originally posted by htwaits
Am I understanding correctly that the Kolin HDTV will accept 1080p input through DVI?

That will actually largely be up to Kolin. They will add a front end board with all of the inputs and they will feed our controller board 1080p.

There is definitely an issue with 1080p 60 fps input at the front end board. Mature scaling technology for the most part is limited to 75 MPixels at the input so that will handle 1080i or 720p (or 1080p up to 30 fps). For 1080p at 60 fps you need 148.5 MPixels per second - too much for the input to the scaler.

But, you say, who needs to scale it if it is 1080p already??? The scaler is typically where the On Screen Display and such is added. So bypassing it for 1080p is not likely to be offered.

All that said, the next gen scalers will all handle 150 MPixel per sec or even higher and also offer better HD deinterlacing and so on... so 1080p input will be a reality at some stage.

Cheers!
DAve.
__________________

Disclaimer: These comments are all my opinion and do not represent any official stance from eLCOS. I am just an engineer - sometimes I think that the marketing guys would prefer it if I didn't talk to anyone...! :)

Originally posted by Phloyd
That will actually largely be up to Kolin.
Thanks. Things have sure changed since I got my Captain Midnight Secret Decoder Ring (http://home.teleport.com/~jrolsen/premiums/ovaltine.html) from a can of Ovaltine. In fact they now make it in China and charge 25 times as much. :rolleyes:

This is making me nervous. Low-voltage, low-cost silicon for the chips?
Hasn't the Hitachi nightmare taught us anything?
"Cheap" chips fail prematurely.
The Toshiba 1080p 3-chip LCoS has already come and gone.
This eLCoS project is definitely not breaking new ground.
Toshiba gave us 6.2 million pixels at around a $6k street price
and is now stuck eating the cost of that failure.
The sets worked GREAT... for 8 months. Then some large percentage
of them failed catastrophically due to chip deterioration.
These chips need to be robust. Being adjacent to a projector bulb is a
pretty harsh environment.

Originally posted by zvogt

"Cheap" chips fail prematurely.
The Toshiba 1080p 3-chip LCoS has already come and gone.
This eLCoS project is definitely not breaking new ground.


I guess cheap was an unfortunate choice of words - think inexpensive.

It is unfortunate that Hitachi and Toshiba were unable to produce reliable product. That said, comments like this are unwarranted.

It is our ground breaking technology that allows low voltage designs and the low voltage designs that allow for low cost and very reliable silicon wafers.

Cheers!
DAve.
__________________

Disclaimer: These comments are all my opinion and do not represent any official stance from eLCOS. I am just an engineer - sometimes I think that the marketing guys would prefer it if I didn't talk to anyone...! :)

Originally posted by Phloyd
comments like this are unwarranted.

Agreed. I will certainly apologize for the tone.
Upon re-reading my post from yesterday, I can certainly
see how it could come across as harsh.
That wasn't really my intent.
And there may have been some frustration over the
whole state of this market in general that was leaking through.
It wasn't directed toward you or your company.
It's just that so many LCoS projects have failed to date,
and 1920x1080 fixed-pixel displays have been shown
for years and years at trade shows, yet still manage to
have essentially zero consumer availability.

If it's any consolation, if eLCoS does deliver a 6.2 million pixel set,
and hits their target price and more importantly their vague availability date,
it's possible (and in fact LIKELY) that I will be quite keen to give eLCoS my $$$.

Phloyd: Isn't the plan to have OEMs sell these sets, not eLCOS?

I was asked in the Intel thread to post about the difference between analogue and digital LCoS.

The analogue side is what JVC and others have been doing for some time and there is good information out there about this technology.

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200302/03-008E/image/0219e_b.gif

This image comes from the Sony press release about SXRD, and does a good job of showing how an LCoS cell is layered.

Those technical amongst you will recognise the architecture - it looks a lot like a DRAM cell! And it works along the same lines.

Essentially a voltage is written to the pixel and stored on the capacitor - this in turn causes the LC to align according to the voltage.

However, the voltage on the capacitor will decrease over time, so they need to understand three things - the voltage they want to write, the rate of decay and the time between pixel refresh. So they need to write a higher voltage so that the average voltage on the LC gives the grey scale level that they desire.

So, the faster they update the screen, the better off they are. The slower that they write, the higher the drive voltage needs to be in order to be the correct average voltage.

Ok, now let's imagine for a second that white is represented by voltage Vw and that the higher the voltage, the whiter the LC will get (this is not always the case, but it is easier to think of it this way).

So, for argument, a full white can be achieved by Vw = 4.5 volts or greater across the LC. So for an analogue system to write a white pixel, they need to write say 5.5 volts to the pixel so that as the voltage decays, the average is going to be 4.5 volts. Remember this part when we start talking about the digital system...

Cheers!
DAve.
__________________

Disclaimer: These comments are all my opinion and do not represent any official stance from eLCOS. I am just an engineer - sometimes I think that the marketing guys would prefer it if I didn't talk to anyone...! :)

In a digital LCoS system, pulse width modulation is used to achieve the grey levels instead of trying to drive an analogue voltage. So we have some similarities to DLP in that sense.

The basic lay up of our cell is much like the analogue cell except that our cell only knows how to drive to black or white - no analogue levels between are possible. It uses an SRAM type cell so that the 0 or 1 will stick and stay until it is written again. For white, the drive will be to white over the whole frame period and for black, it will be black for the whole frame period. As a first approximation, half black and half white gives you a mid grey. I am sure that there are many places that you can find out about PWM if you want to know more about it.

One essential advantage comes where we talk about white and black. As we noted above, the analogue system will need to overdrive white to get white as the average. In the digital system, the drive level for white is the actual white level voltage (in our example, 4.5v) - so we can get away with lower voltage silicon.

The second essential advantage is flexibility when all things are not equal. With a digital modulation we can tailor our PWM to take care of nonlinearities in the LC response and other systems. We can do things in inexpensive digital ways.

The third advantage is that we only have to have two analogue levels set accurately - those being Vblack and Vwhite. Everything else is generated in the modulation. Analogue systems need to track the exact response of the panel across voltage ranges and accurately drive the correct analogue voltage so that the average drive to the LC is the correct level - this is obviously considerably more variables to deal with.

Lastly the digital system is probably easier to scale. As we use less voltage to drive, the transistors can get smaller. Digital will no doubt lead analogue in pixel density. We are currently more dense than the Sony SXRD - they have 9 um pixels, ours are 8.1 um on the 1080p panel.

So... I hope this helps explain the differences... and I hope it doesn't raise more questions than it answers.... :)

Cheers!
DAve.
__________________

Disclaimer: These comments are all my opinion and do not represent any official stance from eLCOS. I am just an engineer - sometimes I think that the marketing guys would prefer it if I didn't talk to anyone...! :)

Originally posted by zvogt
Agreed. I will certainly apologize for the tone.
Upon re-reading my post from yesterday, I can certainly
see how it could come across as harsh.


Not to worry - I later saw elsewhere that you had one of the Toshiba sets and I am sure it was sad to have to return it.

I think LCoS has a lot of potential and it is exciting that Intel seem to be following a strategy that is very close to ours - to me that is a sign that we are on the right track and I hope that we can remain ahead of Intel in the race to a real product.

Rogo: yes - currently we have no plans to make TV's - our customers will make TV's. It is possible that we will create a reference design for our not so technical customers - in this case I will try to ensure that there are a good range of digital inputs to take advantage of a fully digital system.

Cheers!
DAve.
__________________

Disclaimer: These comments are all my opinion and do not represent any official stance from eLCOS. I am just an engineer - sometimes I think that the marketing guys would prefer it if I didn't talk to anyone...! :)

Ok, one last thing and then I will shut up for a while :)

The unit we demonstrated at CES was a three panel engine in a 60" RPTV case. The whole system was essentially the same as the 720p system that we also had on show, except that we used the 1080p imagers instead. Obviously there was some difference in the control files but the optics engine and controller are both compatible with the new imagers.

We were running source that we licenced through CES. I wish that we had the writes to some more interesting material, but those are the breaks I guess. The source was provided on DVHS and was all 1080i. We played back from a JVC 30000U via component output into a KDS Leeza which scaled to 1080p. I tried to get a directly digital conenction using 1394 to PC or STB but there were either motion effects (I think due to incorrect field order) or DVI sync problems, so the best result was to use component. We definitely lost some sharpness and colour depth with the analogue step. KDS provided excellent support (it helped that they were just up the hall :) ) in getting the best picture with the equipment available.

Other than the analogue video step, the other major thing for us to contend with was a large amount of ambient light and reflections on the screen. It is hard to show decent contrast in such an environment.

Still, overall we were pretty happy to be there with such a tight schedule to get a decent image on our set. Thanks to those who came by to see us.

Cheers!
DAve.

Phloyd:

Thanks for the information. I've got a couple of questions for you.

First of all, according to your website, the lcos imager has a contrast ratio of 400:1. This seems quite low compared to TI's claim of 3000:1 for the HD2+. I guess my question is am I correct in assuming we can make a direct comparison between the CRs of 2 different technologies, or is it like comparing apples to oranges? How will the final CRs that viewers see coming out of their TVs compare the CRs of the imagers?

Secondly, in one of the earlier posts, you mentioned that the liquid crystal response time wasn't fast enough to keep up with the switching time of the digital modulation. Does that mean that we can not expect 256 distinct levels of gray from a 60 fps source?

Sorry, one more question.

You mentioned that your low-cost solution resembles SRAM in that it holds a charge, as opposed to the high-cost competion which more closely resembles DRAM.

Admitedly, it's been a long time since my electronics courses at university, but I seem to remember that SRAM was quite a bit more complex (and costly) then DRAM, and required 5 times as many transistors. Is this no longer the case?

Hi padlock,

I don't know too much about the contrast ratio comparisons. If you ask Runco about it, they quote three different CR's based on how they were actually measured. It seems that the CR of a chip and the CR of a system based on the chip can differ greatly. I think that the 400:1 you saw is most likely a system CR, where there DLP may be the chip contrast ratio. In any case, I think that our true contrast performance is in the same ball park as the current DLP RTPV's from Samsung, just based on looking at them...

The LC response is slower that the modulation, but that results in it acting as a smoothing filter, partially holding an average value based on the modulation. We can achieve similar or better colour performance to other technologies - in fact I think that colour fidelity is one of our strong points.

SRAM is more complex than DRAM, but there is still plenty of room under each pixel for our pixel cell. The overall cost is largely based on the materials and process used as well as the size of the final wafer. Our cost savings come from the wafer being relatively small (0.7") and the process being a fairly standard silicon that is easy to fab - it is not the bleeding edge of silicon geometry by any means...

__________________
Disclaimer: These comments are all my opinion and do not represent any official stance from eLCOS. I am just an engineer - sometimes I think that the marketing guys would prefer it if I didn't talk to anyone...! :)

Dave,

Welcome to AVS and the RPTV forum. I am sure this will be a popular thread. I am one of the people that has great hopes for the LCoS technology, though so far its been struggling. Maybe your twist on the chip will make it successful.


Question for Phloyd and the more I think about it it should be for the light engine maker, but maybe you can give it a shot.
How will the alignment/convergence of the 3 panels be handled? Some 3 panel fixed pixel display have had issues in this area.

And on a related note, why don't people make the resolution 1080/1100P, and then if the three LCOS panels are out of alignment, you can shift the image on the panels around to align it via "software". You only have to use 1080, the extra 20 are just around the edges for image shifting.

Originally posted by Barrybud

Welcome to AVS and the RPTV forum.

Thanks. I enjoy talking about the technology.

That said, we are still at a phase where many things need to be kept under wraps, so I may not offer much detail in certain areas.

You may notice that I have added a disclaimer to my posts - this is just to emphasise that I am not posting as an official source of information from our company. I am just trying increase peoples' awareness and help them be better informed about the LCoS technology.

The short answer to your question is that the images are combined optically in the light engine, so we are somewhat at the mercy of the light engine guys.

And to answer Axel's question, people do this. :)

Cheers!
DAve.

Wow so much great information!

In case any of you did not see it in my post in the Cineos thread here is the link to the pictures I took at the eLCoS booth at CES while talking to Dave (there are Cineos pictures in there as well). http://www.aecustom.com/ces04/lcos.html

Dave I just want to thank you for spending so much time discussing this technology. You are amongst a group of people who want to see your product be a success so bad we can taste it (and imagine it after what we saw with Toshiba).

Hopefully this is the beginning of good things to come and I can tell you from the short time I have spent on AVS your involvement and feedback with the community that will be using your products is the most invaluable research you will ever get!

Good Luck to eLCoS...this is going to be fun!

Phloyd, this is a lot of good information. Thank you for sharing it with us.

Because of overscan a panel does not have to be bigger than 1080x1920
to correct for alignment errors .. these will be very small, and will
be covered up by the bezel if they move the images around.

Doug

Doug: None the less our panels are slightly bigger than 1920x1080.

TetsujinWave: No problem - it is good to get the information out there.

Peter: Thanks for adding the link to the pictures. I like the basketball picture.

We have some pix that were taken at the show too - if I can track them down I may post one or two. I don't want to be seen as advertising, so let me know if you think it would be a bad idea to post pictures.

I guess you picked up on my enthusiasm for what we are doing - we are definitely excited about what can be achieved. We definitely understand the benefits of being able to talk about all this stuff in a nice, relaxed and informal discussion.

Anyways, I have presented about everything I can think of so if you guys have any questions or want clarification about anything, feel free to ask. I will offer what information I can.

Cheers!
DAve.

Because of overscan a panel does not have to be bigger than 1080x1920
to correct for alignment errors .. these will be very small, and will
be covered up by the bezel if they move the images around.

Please do not encourage overscan. Overscan is more of an abomination on mankind than interlace.

Every pixel is designed to be seen -- from (0,0) to (1079,1919).

I currently have one of the Toshiba LCOS sets. Sadly, it is going to be shipped back to Toshiba sometime over the next couple of weeks.

I absolutely loved the picture...smooth and film like. It kills me to return the set.

The big problem appears to be longevity of the LCOS panels. After about 6 months of use, my set started to develop a tendency to temporarily retain static images. For example, I like to watch baseball and usually there is a static score board on the screen. If after watching for a while, I switch channels, you could see a sort of ghostly afterimage of the scoreboard. A similar behavior would happen if I was watching a 4:3 SD show for some period of time then changed to a 16:9 HD channel. The 4:3 area in the center of the screen had a decidedly redder appearence. Eventually this would fade then no problem. As time went on, the afterimages became more pronounced and it took longer to fade.

Another common problem fellow Toshiba LCOS owners encountered were the dreaded "blue flares" at the bottom of the set. I first started to see these after about 7.5 months. They changed from day to day, sometimes there, sometimes not. I also experienced large irregularly shaped blue "blobs" on the left side of the screen. They were not as intense as the blue flares but were more like blue discolorations, that changed shape and size over time.

Hence the return of a non-fixable set (no parts!)

My question is: have these new panels gone through long-term use testing? Any signs of degredation? Over 6-months of use?

(I'd be happy to be a beta tester of a prototype)

One thing to remember about LCOS longevity is that many of the JVC projectors have been in use for 4 years or so. They are used in the simulation market quite extensively and are popular there. There is no way they are suffering the same maladies as the Toshiba RPTV has, or else they'd have long since been ripped out.

Mark

Feel free to ask questions. I will answer as I find time - assuming it is not sensitive information

Dave,

I figure this you can answer one of the questions that has been bugging a lot of on AVS for some time - assuming it isn't top secret or anything.

lie-cose?

el-cose?

el-cos?

el-sea-oh-ess?

He he ...

We tend to say el-see-oh-ess, el-cose or el-cos.

Also some people say our name with an extra "e" and some don't - e-el-cos or el-cos.

Nobody I know of says lie-cos(e).

The largest vote I think goes with el-cos...

Cheers!
DAve.

Originally posted by kwolfman

After about 6 months of use, my set started to develop a tendency to temporarily retain static images.

Another common problem fellow Toshiba LCOS owners encountered were the dreaded "blue flares" at the bottom of the set.

My question is: have these new panels gone through long-term use testing? Any signs of degredation? Over 6-months of use?

The image retension issue is seen in LCoS when a DC bias is allowed into the control drive. In normal operation the LC should only ever see an AC signal and so image retention is typically not a problem.

I am really interested to hear more, or particularly see pictures of the racetrack and blue issues. It seems very odd to me that issues can show up in blue but not red and green.

Naturally we will be doing extensive reliability testing on our parts. As Rogo notes, JVC have had LCoS in the field for quite some time, and from the friendly chat I had with them at CES it seems that they are very pleased with how the LC's have aged. So I don't think it is necessarily an issue with LCoS itself, but just something to do with how Hitachi and Toshiba built their systems and panels.

Of course, unless someone gives us some hard information, this is all speculation.

Cheers!
DAve.

I had a forum admin change the thread title to reflect something I learned here first, that eLCOS will not be producing LCOS TV sets. Thus "HDTV" was removed from the title and replaced with "technology".

Thanks David!

Chris

Here's an example of blue flares I found in the Toshiba LCOS owner's thread. It's from bhench. I hope he doesn't mind me reposting it.

My blue flares were mainly in the lower left and lower right corners.

Why they are always blue implies to me that maybe it has something more to do with the lens system rather than the LCOS panels. How would a lens system degrade? Why always on the bottom? (although I had some blue problems higher up on the left side).

It looks to me like the border of the panel (ie, outside of the normal image area) is going superbright and that this is causing a lens flare effect.

Of course, I have no explanation as to why this might occur, nor why it should only be blue.

Cheers!
DAve.

From DigiTimes:

"eLCOS Microdisplay Technology, a California-based IC design company, is producing a high-definition (HD) microdisplay chip at Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (TSMC), according to the companies.

Pilot runs of the eHD70, which the company believes to be the world’s first microdisplay chip supporting a 1920x1080 solution, has begun with a 0.25-micron CMOS process at TSMC’s Fab 5, according to eLCOS chairman and CEO Warren Shih. Ummm, says Rogo, surely they know that JVC is shipping one of these for Mitsubishi, so it's obviously not the first.

About five to ten home appliance and display manufacturers have expressed an interest in the new chip, while international companies like Toshiba and Mitsubishi have also been in contact with eLCOS for potential cooperation, Shih said. Emphasis added by me; intriguing.

Volume production of HD LCOS TVs using the eHD70 chip is expected to start by year-end. An initial offering of the HD TVs should feature a 50-inch display panel and be priced at about US$3,000. A LCOS TV requires three microdisplay chips, which together are quoted at about US$500, according to Shih." So if this microdisplay is inhrently as good as the more-than-two-year-old one from Hitachi; then in theory a set comparable to the late Toshiba could be built.

Mark

Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
Please do not encourage overscan. Overscan is more of an abomination on mankind than interlace.

Every pixel is designed to be seen -- from (0,0) to (1079,1919). \

Overscan is definitely something that gets discussed a lot. Some here like the idea of using the TV's as monitors and want no overscan but for video sources this would give windowboxed images, sometimes with poorly aligned edges, which is not acceptable for a TV. This is definitely the case for many SD sources.

One option is to zoom the video so that video sources are effectively overscanned and leave others alone.

Overscan also allows for easier alignment - no overscan means that you have to hit the screen perfectly with no distortion of any kind - this all adds cost to the final design.

I am interested in peoples' thoughts about how to have a TV that works well as a monitor also... I suspect the final answer will be separate products that are best tuned for one application or the other...

Cheers!
DAve.

Overscan is definitely something that gets discussed a lot. Some here like the idea of using the TV's as monitors and want no overscan but for video sources this would give windowboxed images, sometimes with poorly aligned edges, which is not acceptable for a TV. This is definitely the case for many SD sources.

Overscan is particularly nasty when using the display for a computer desktop. I am extra sensitive on this issue because my Pioneer Elite RPTV has really bad overscan.

But on the subject of SD sources, I feel strongly that the user should have the option of displaying sources in a size appropriate for their resolution. A SD picture should be about half or less the size of an HD picture. The alternative is to have motorized seats so one can zoom away from the screen when watching SD programming.

People are always complaining about how bad SD looks on their big screen and it is often simply that the SD image is too big.

Originally posted by Phloyd
It looks to me like the border of the panel (ie, outside of the normal image area) is going superbright and that this is causing a lens flare effect.

Of course, I have no explanation as to why this might occur, nor why it should only be blue.

Cheers!
DAve.

It is definitely not lens flare. Last night using a DVD I displayed a solid black picture. The blue flares and discoloration were plain to see. I'm really having a hard time coming up with an idea about what could be causing them. Where in the light path this could be coming from is hard to figure out. If it was LCOS panel related, why always the blue one on everyone's set?

One of life's little mysteries.

Originally posted by kwolfman
It is definitely not lens flare. Last night using a DVD I displayed a solid black picture. The blue flares and discoloration were plain to see. I'm really having a hard time coming up with an idea about what could be causing them. Where in the light path this could be coming from is hard to figure out. If it was LCOS panel related, why always the blue one on everyone's set?

One of life's little mysteries.

Indeed. The "blue only" thing really strange.

The only time that I have seen this kind of thing on our sets is when the border pixels are really high.

Basically, our panel is larger than 1920x1080 (as previously hinted) and what happens outside of the active pixels is not controlled by incoming video stream. The border is typcally controlled by other circuitry.

In any case, if for some reason the border pixels are not controlled properly and go hot, they will glow brightly - however you can't see them directly since they are outside of the viewable area.

That said, the projection lens can flare from the hot border, causing the kinds of flaring that you describe and the pictures show.

This is just a theory on my part... I can't think of any other mechanism that would cause such a thing...

As for the discoloration issues - I haven't seen a picture of this yet, but there are many reasons that cause non-uniformity in LC so it could be any number of things...

Cheers!
DAve.

Dave,
We really appreciate having a good engineer talk about the technology. Thanks for posting the image that shows LCOS layering. What path does light actually take in an LCOS system. It obviously goes through the glass substrate. I was assuming that it goes through the liquid crystal (and reflects off the bottom of this layer when the grains are aligned and scatters when the grains are not aligned. Is that right? How does the scattered light get captured so that it doesn't affect the contrast ratio?

Hi there,

The light that is incident on the liquid crystal is polarised.

The liquid crystal changes the angle of polarisation depending on the orientation of each pixel.

Then a polarising filter effectively blocks some angles more than others which results in a grey scale.

In some cases, driving the LC will make it twist towards black and in others is starts black and twists towards white.

Cheers!
DAve.

It is very interesting to know the details of how LCOS works.

Ignoring the concentrators and lenses in an LCOS system, it sounds like some light goes through the first polarized filter, has the angle of polarization changed by the LCOS and then proceeds through a second polarized filter on its way to the screen. The first polarized filter must reduce the light output somewhat. So, it would seem that with this architecture, LCOS is at a disadvantage to DLP with respect to light efficiency. So, to get the same brightness a bulb with higher light output is needed. Is that right?

Is the light that is trapped by the second polarizing filter reused or discarded?

Obviously, this is a design curiosity and not a problem for the consumer of the RPTV.

Hmmm... DLP automatically discards 2/3 of the light from the lamp when a color-wheel is used (all single-chip designs)... In fact, due to spoke time, it's actually worse than this.

Somehow, DLPs can be bright enough anyway. LCOS has its own set of light challenges, but it starts out with an advantage vis a vis DLP when 3-chip designs are used, even acknowleding the dichroics, polarizers, etc.

Low CR places eLCOS out of the HDTV market. Achieve 2500:1 or above CR and then you have a product to successfully market. GOOD LUCK!!!

Rogo is correct in that the loss of light due to the colour wheel approach puts three chip LCoS on a par with DLP for brightness.

Philips is doing something funky with the colours to avoid this issue.

I have heard that there is research into new methods for the initial polariser that should allow much better efficiencies for LCoS light engines.

Cheers!
DAve.

"Philips is doing something funky with the colours to avoid this issue."

What they are doing is rotating a prism instead of a color wheel. The nice thing about the prism is that all three colors are on screen at once. But each primary only hits one third of the screen at a time. I'm thinking it's more light efficient that the wheel....

Interesting...do you guys conjecture that most of the LCOS solutions (at least the ones that will get compared to the DLP RPTVs) next year will be 3 chip LCOS solutions or do you think that most designs will just include a brighter lamp?

The technology that we are presenting today is all three panel. The cost advantages that we have over DLP should allow us to be very competitive with their single panel solutions.

That said, with Intel coming in with potential cost down systems with one panel, we do not intend to ignore the single panel solution in the future.

Cheers!
DAve.

And, to echo Phloyd. I'm fairly sure Intel's OEMs will be primarily one-chip seekers. Alas.

I have posted this document on LCoS RPTV's. It is currently in draft form. I welcome all comments, including inaccuracies and suggestions. Thanks.

http://www.digiupdate.com/106_LCoS_RPTV.html

Speaking of Intel:

Inquirer Article - 50" Intel LCOS $1,800 at end of 2004 (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=14169)

They are pointing again to the gauntlet they've thrown down. We'll probably see more about this in tomorrow's news.

Is there actually anything in the gauntlet? Well, we'll see. Man, I crack myself up. The threat alone could push down prices, so ye bargain hunters, rejoice. Is Intel bluffing or full of false confidence? Possibly, but they seem even more confident now than just a month ago...

Hey, at least it keeps things interesting!

-RandomDave

Why is that article comparing LCoS to plasma? Am I missing something here?

No, it's not a good article.

And who, exactly, is going to release this TV for that much in just 10 months?

Yeah, I noticed the article seemed a bit strange, but you take the bad with the good with the Inquirer.

Indulging in a little conspiracy thinking, the interview with Michael Dell in PC Magazine perhaps provides the answer to who will make them (or, more specifically, whatever Far East OEM'r makes them). I'm not betting the bank on that, but it at least makes some sense to me. Maybe they have the OEM partners lined up, but lack a 'brand' name. I'm guessing we will get more answers to that in the late summer/early fall timeframe --- assuming this isn't all vaporware.

-RandomDave

It will be interesting to see is what the moving pictures look like from Intel.

They are driving towards single chip digital which is a space that we have not explored beyond concept. Knowing that they use similar digital schemes to our system, the tricky part is getting a good "moving picture" - a good still image is much simpler. I think that going single chip will add a whole extra level of complexity.

So once they actually are willing to show everyone what they have been doing, it could be very interesting.

But seeing as they don't seem to be ready to show it off, I also think that 10 months to product on the shelf is... aggressive :)

Cheers!
DAve.

Originally posted by PeterShipp
Why is that article comparing LCoS to plasma? Am I missing something here?

I re-read the article... It seems that they showed off how great LCoS is ... using a plasma display for the demo...??? :rolleyes:

I think that we would rather "no show" than demo our technology on some-one else's box... :)

Cheers!
DAve.

The Inquirer article is trash. They "showed off a large 50-inch plasma screen which demonstrated just how LCOS looks", huh? Silly.

Thinking about eLCOS technology more...it would seem that there is better heat management for LCOS than transmissive LCD. You could put a heatsink on the backside of an LCOS panel to cool the device as compared to LCD which would be harder to cool. So the torture test that TI did to LCD (and DLP) doesn't translate to LCOS at all.

Too bad that theory is wrong. TI's "test" also trashed an LCOS projector.

Also, TI's test in both cases did the damage by whacking the polarizers, not the imager itself.

Also, TI's test is a joke. There is no fundamental problem with LCD or LCOS here. There are bad implementations of either that are possible, but so what.

I seem to remember from previous threads that Disney was running LCOS (DILA) projectors all day long in the old Tomorrow Land theater in the round. They also ran the bulbs way past the rated hours (low number of strikes per day). So I don't think LCOS has any problem running for extreme durations.

Nor do I Mark Hoy.

A round-up story from Intel Developer's Forum:

http://www.reed-electronics.com/electronicnews/index.asp?layout=document&doc_id=131193&spacedesc=news

"On the client side, Intel used the Barrett keynote to demonstrate prototypes of the company's "Entertainment PC" concept and its liquid crystal on silicon (LCOS) displays for big projection televisions, both introduced for the first time at the Consumer Electronics Show last month. The segment included a demonstration of how consumers in the home will be able to wirelessly transmit files from the Entertainment PC to the traditional PC in the home office using USB over ultra-wideband technology."

A German story on the LCoS demo (translated by Google):

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.tecchannel.de/news/hardware/14529/&prev=/search%3Fq%3DIntel%2BDeveloper%2BForum%2BLCoS%26hl%3Den%26lr %3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8

I have yet to see a LCos that made as good a picture as DLP for the same price or less....

Wonder if this will ever change?

Things are pretty quiet on the "news" front ... so I was wondering if y'all would be interested in seeing some pictures.

I am not sure where to post them but I have permission to take some and post them somewhere if there is interest.

If you have any particular scenes from the Discovery Channel promo loop or the CBS loop that we showed at CES, I can try to do that.

Cheers!
DAve.

Originally posted by Phloyd
Things are pretty quiet on the "news" front ... so I was wondering if y'all would be interested in seeing some pictures. Well, I'm sure interested, so post away!

I second that request! I would love to see them!

Thanks,
Robbie

Ok, I will take some pix and post them over the next couple of days. :)

Thanks for your interest.

Cheers!
DAve.

I'll third the request. Do you have any white papers or other pertinent information?

We are being encouraged to write some white papers but that is a ways off.

I am not sure what aspects of our technology is under wraps so I have not said much more than digital PWM LCoS three panel...

You could look at our website http://www.elcos.com/ - there may be some information there of interest.

Cheers!
DAve.

Sorry chaps - I took some pictures but I didn't like them. I am out of town until next week, so I will do something then. I haven't forgotten - promise!

Cheers!
DAve.

I have posted an image here (http://www.rhobot.com/IMG_0202.jpg).

It is quite large.

The pictures that I took were on a 6Mpixel Canon with the settings on manual for everything. The exposure time is 1/15 of a second, so on some pictures there is motion blur from things moving in frame.

In this particular shot there is very little motion so it is quite clean.

These wide shots look a little dark to me but I think it gives a good example of how the 1080 displays offer a lot of detail.

Cheers!
DAve.

Originally posted by PeterShipp
Wow so much great information!

In case any of you did not see it in my post in the Cineos thread here is the link to the pictures I took at the eLCoS booth at CES while talking to Dave (there are Cineos pictures in there as well). http://www.aecustom.com/ces04/lcos.html

Dave I just want to thank you for spending so much time discussing this technology. You are amongst a group of people who want to see your product be a success so bad we can taste it (and imagine it after what we saw with Toshiba).

Hopefully this is the beginning of good things to come and I can tell you from the short time I have spent on AVS your involvement and feedback with the community that will be using your products is the most invaluable research you will ever get!

Good Luck to eLCoS...this is going to be fun!

Wow the color difference really leaps out at you on those pictures, of course that could be mainly do to the lighting vairable in the different areas. Still...

Looks good. More, please! :)

Originally posted by Griffon
Wow the color difference really leaps out at you on those pictures, of course that could be mainly do to the lighting vairable in the different areas. Still...

It is interesting to see the difference between the pictures Peter took and the ones I took.

I think I am a little under-exposed still - they could probably use a little level shifting.

In any case, I have emailed 4 new images to Peter and he will be posting them (and will no doubt annouce their arrival :) ).

The difference in colour should be clear from the basketball pictures, where both Peter's picture and mine are from the same tape.

Cheers!
DAve.

Ok just got them up, here you go!

http://www.aecustom.com/elcos/LCoS.html

Thanks for your help Peter.

Hope y'all enjoy :)

Cheers!
DAve.

Originally posted by Mark Hoy
I seem to remember from previous threads that Disney was running LCOS (DILA) projectors all day long in the old Tomorrow Land theater in the round. They also ran the bulbs way past the rated hours (low number of strikes per day). So I don't think LCOS has any problem running for extreme durations.

We run DILA PJs in many of our attractions, and have never seen the kind of degradation TI's study talks about in those units.

We HAVE seen it in LCDs, but never at 3000 hours. Almost always it begins at about double that or more. And it varies by projector model and brand.

BB

Phloyd,
Appreciate the time you've taken to comment on the new LCoS technology. It's all fascinating.

On photos, are there any images that might demonstrate advantages of 'all-digital' eLCoS versus a partially digital path (same display, DVI vs. YPbPr)? If on-screen resolution can be better with digital-only eLCoS, perhaps some zoomed-in areas of resolution wedges or multibursts, both B&W and color patterns? Perhaps the differences might be akin to those in this pdf-format whitepaper (http://www.etconsult.com/papers/Technical%20Issues%20in%20Cinema%20Resolution.pdf) contrasting 2k vs. 4k telecine scans (zoomed photos showing fabric textures, etc.) -- John

P.S. Thought I'd seen JVC's DILA FP longevity attributed to something related to 'organic' vs. 'inorganic'. What's that about and does it relate to eLCoS? Thanks.

The pics from the prototype, is that a 3 chip unit?

Originally posted by Barrybud
The pics from the prototype, is that a 3 chip unit?
Yes.

Hi guys,

On DVI vs YPbPr - the pictures here, sadly enough, are actually from a YPbPr path.

I have tried to get an all digital path from the JVC using a Samsung STB with DVI out - sadly our scaler doesn't sync with the Samsung well at 1080i, so the current path is YPbPr to the scaler and 1080p DVI to the TV.

It is possible to display the TS streams directly off a PC - downside is that the PC is a crappy deinterlacer and the motion looks awful. That said, for pictures it would probably be fine. So if I get some time I might set that up and take more pictures.

I talked to JVC guys at CES and they said that they have had D-ILA's running almost constantly at customer sites for many years now. They intimated that the panels were not the weak link - they wouldn't elaborate on what was :)

For the inorganic/organic side of things - I am no LC guy but I believe that this relates to the alignment layer (the layer that makes the Liquid Crystal line up when it is not driven). Our underlying drive backplane can be used with many types of LC formulations so at this stage I can't comment on whether products based on our chips will have organic or inorganic alignment layers.

Here is another thing to ponder - how much UV would you expect to see in red filtered light? Or green - or even blue? How much UV would you expect the panels to be exposed to in normal operation?

Lastly, I have a theory on the race track on the Toshiba 1080 sets - noting that this is pure speculation! If you see an effect that comes in from the outside edge, it is probably some kind of contamination of the LC which effects the response. Remember, I am not an LC guy so this could be way off base...

Cheers!
DAve.

so when can i buy these sets and from whom?

It is unclear what US products will be available and when - however it is expected that the first 1080p products will be available from our Chinese and Taiwanese manufacturing partners late 2004.

Sorry to be so non-specific - I can't really offer anything more concrete in this forum.

I am sure that more details will be publicly available closer to launch.

Cheers!
DAve.

Originally posted by Phloyd
It is unclear what US products will be available and when - however it is expected that the first 1080p products will be available from our Chinese and Taiwanese manufacturing partners late 2004.

Sorry to be so non-specific - I can't really offer anything more concrete in this forum.

I am sure that more details will be publicly available closer to launch.

Cheers!
DAve.

3 chip 1080p? That would be worth the wait for sure.

Hi Dave, can you talk about the possible causes of various digital artifacts.... More in general LCoS terms than from eLCoS, if possible. And if there are different issues in 720p vs. 1080p, in 1-panel and 3-panel systems, spelling those out would be extremely helpful.

Much appreciated,
-Salim

Please be more specific about the "various digital artifacts" you are interested in. The term "digital artifacts" makes me think of MPEG artifacts, but I don't think this is what you mean.

Going from 720 to 1080 is a doubling in bandwidth. Going from 3 to 1 chip is a 3x in bandwidth, and a timing issue with the colour sequential filters. These are the big differences from my perspective (drive electronics) - there may be other issues with respect to the LC itself, due to pixel geometries and LC thickness.

It is easier to control the flatness with respect to thickness on a thicker LC. Single panel systems require thinner LC's to improve the response time, and so the flatness may become a yield issue for single panel.

That is what comes to mind. I will post more if clarify what artifacts you would like to have explained. :)

lorenzow - I am certainly waiting in eager anticipation for my personal TV based on our 1080 panels - for now I just have to watch the ones here at work. :)

Cheers!
DAve.

DAve, your post implies that, in some ways, it is actually more difficult to make a single panel than a 3 panel display. That certainly gives hope to those of us that are waiting patiently (?) for the 'ultimate' RPTV.

Cheers!

Larry

Dave,

I just picked up this thread today and it is very informative. In a very early post of yours, you mentioned that the elcos being digital. It uses modulation similar to DLP in a sense that the elcos "flashes" to create different shades of grey. Will that make the elcos subject to the "rainbow" artifact some people found on DLP? Thanks.

Victor

Lorenzow, single panel and three panel have their own challenges for sure - and a single panel system does require everything to go faster.

In any case, I expect that there will be both single and three panel systems on the market - the good news is that the three panel systems should be affordable, even if the signle panels are less expensive than the three...

Victor, the rainbows are caused by the colour sequential nature of single panel DLP (and also the single panel LCoS from Philips). It is due to the frame being shown red, green, blue in turn.

This problem is not evident in three panel systems which show red, green and blue all of the time - both LCoS and DLP. But three panel DLP is (apparently) prohibitively expensive. I assume this since the "flagship" Runco that they used at the CES gathering was still a single chip machine. It was very nice and bright and big - so it had really BIG rainbows :) I would have thought for the price you could put three panels in there and not increase the system price by much...??? It seems that for the most part TI and DLP developers don't think rainbows are a big deal...

In any case, I believe that three panel 1080p LCoS Tv's should be available at an affordable price point late this year or early next year... (read the disclaimer)

Cheers!
DAve.

<<In any case, I believe that three panel 1080p LCoS Tv's should be available at an affordable price point late this year or early next year... (read the disclaimer)>>

can we expect significant improvement on contrast / black levels by then?

Phloyd, as always your info is much appreciated. But I have to ask you why you haven't posted your adress yet. I mean, how can we come over to watch your 1080p if you don't give us your address. Jeesshh.

Originally posted by IAmCanadian
Phloyd, as always your info is much appreciated. But I have to ask you why you haven't posted your adress yet. I mean, how can we come over to watch your 1080p if you don't give us your address. Jeesshh.
Just go to Mountain View California and ask any AVS member you run into where Phloyd is. No problem. :)

The expectation of significant improvement in black level would depend on what your current expectations are... eLCOS@CES? Cineos?

Needless to say, we are always aiming to get better contrast.

As far as dropping by, if you want to come down from Canada, the least I could do is let you watch the TV for a while ;) We have a comfy couch and all...

Cheers!
DAve.

Originally posted by Phloyd

As far as dropping by, if you want to come down from Canada, the least I could do is let you watch the TV for a while ;) We have a comfy couch and all...

Cheers!
DAve.

Stock the fridge, we're on our way! :D

Originally posted by Phloyd
... But three panel DLP is (apparently) prohibitively expensive. ...I know where one can buy a demo model 3-chip Runco DLP FP for only $60K!

In any case, I believe that three panel 1080p LCoS Tv's should be available at an affordable price point late this year or early next year... (read the disclaimer) Late this year would be great but next year is too late for me ... HDTV in '04 in my house.

bump... is this thread still alive?

:)

Well... yes!

Still happy to answer any questions as they arise.

Nothing much new at my end that I can talk about. We have had interesting meetings of late, but it will be some time before any information becomes public on those.

Otherwise we are just working away to ensure that we meet our goals :)

Cheers!
DAve.

Dave, have you folks performed any brightness and contrast measurements you can share with us (i.e., ANSI contrast, on/off contrast, etc.)?

Hi Bob,

I can't really offer contrast ratio numbers for a couple of reasons.

First is that the CR is a function of the light engine and this will vary by manufacturer.

The second is that we are continually working to improve the panels as well as the control mechanisms.

When there is a product launch I am sure that there will be numbers available.

All that said, generally speaking people seem happy with the contrast on the display. However, like pretty much all lamp based systems, a darker black state would be nice :)

Cheers!
DAve.

I agree on the contrast ratio issue - look at the set, not the published figures. Reminds me of the horsepower rating statements by auto manufacturers during the fifties...
I predict that Lcos will supplant DLP and RPLCD technologies, and perhaps
plasma as well. The potential advantages of Lcos are enormous.

LCOS is great, but I can't see how any projection TV supplants the flat-panel market.

I think that at certain screen sizes the limitations of the flat panels make them bad value for money. For example, the 24" 1920x1200 LCD monitor I use for DVI signal integrity reference is way too slow to be a TV. And that is only a 24" - I believe that the problem is worse on bigger LCD's (and even on LCD projectors I saw at NAB).

1920x1080 Plasmas are just huge (as evidenced at CES).

I guess it all depends on _why_ you but flat panel. I think it would be a nightmare to try to mount one of those 60" - 70" plasma TV's at CES on a wall :)

RPTV would seem to be the best solution for a 1920x1080 in a reasonable size... or a front projector.

Cheers!
DAve.

PS. Someone mentioned wanting to see DVI vs component analogue on the 1080 screen. I now have DVI direct working pretty nicely and could show this comparison is there is still interest.

Dave. I would be VERY interested in seeing comparison photos showing the differences between DVI and component analogue on your 1080p screen. This sounds like a very exciting technology!

Ok - I will see what I can do to post some examples of DVI vs. YPbPr in a few days time.

Cheers!
DAve.

Dave, fwiw, it appears that the biggest LCD panels are also getting the fastest response time as well. Obviously, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

And I don't know about mounting a 70" plasma, but the 60s are easily mounted with readily available kits. I suspect you'll see them go to 1920 x 1080 next year or in 2006... With none of the LCOS stuff really shipping, they ought to reach the market around the same time.

We could argue which 70" fits better in someone's house, but I'll actually take, well, neither..... Once you go that big, you really are generally best off with an FP. And for those, my overwhelming preference -- personally -- is LCOS. :)

Mark

With regard to wall mounting, I am not so concerned about kits, just the idea of mounting such a heavy and expensive device on the wall...! :) You would want to be sure that you mounted it securely.

Especially in California ;) ;)

At CES, all of the Plasmas (if I recall correctly) right up to the 76" LG and 80" Samsung were wall mounted...

Interesting about the LCD speed issue - I was told the opposite, but I am sure you are closer to the pulse on that one. I was a bit disappointed at the 1080 Sanyo front projector at NAB with respect to response time, but I bet that their people know and are working to improve on it.

It is an exciting time in Digital displays...

Cheers!
DAve.

Hi Dave,

Anything new to report? Big announcements coming our way? We haven't heard from you for a while.

Larry

There is nothing new that I can report right now, though there are exciting things afoot.

I will talk about them if/when they become public or at least are no longer "top secret". :)

WRT the pictures I was going to take regarding 1080 vs 720 and DVI vs analogue - I am sure I will get to it eventually... :) We are back to a situation where such pictures are not straightforward to take...

Cheers!
DAve.

Phloyd, the comments from JVC Dila TV states the following:
10. ILA element characteristics Do not project still pictures or pictures that have still segments for a long period of time. The still parts of the picture may remain on the screen. This is a characteristic of ILA elements and not a malfunction. The picture will disappear over time.

Is this true of all LCOS based TV's or is the eLCOS different in that regards?

This thread has been added to the "popular Threads" Post.

It is possible to "burn in" an image with LCoS. I am not an LC guy, but as I understand it, this occurs when the impurities in the LC go to one or other plate and stay there.

This should NOT happen if the LC is correctly modulated, thereby keeping any impurity that may exist mobile. Also, in cases where the modulation ceases and burn in occurs, it has "cured itself" over time as the impurities become mobile again.

That said, if your modulation ceases, you are likely to not be getting a picture either! So, burn in is the least of your concerns.
;)

I guess that it is possible that if the modulation works differently from ours, that this burn in could occur.

We have NO concern about burn in with our TVs. We leave them running for days at a time with PC sources that do not change. We don't see any sign of burn in at all.

I think that if an LCoS TV has burn in, it is poorly designed. It could just be that JVC are covering their legal bases. Or it could be something more sinister... I really don't know. Someone will have to buy one and let us know :)

Cheers!
DAve.

PS. Thanks BarryBud.

Haven't been keeping up on the forum in the last few months and wanted to see how my 1080p set was coming. It seems Phloyd's response to my timeline got deleted. :rolleyes:

Who's going to have a usable 61" 1080p display available this year? Is it just too early to try for 1080p this year and I should settle for the best next thing for awhile? Who know's when I'll be in the market again for a large HDTV?!

Originally posted by xortam
Who's going to have a usable 61" 1080p display available this year?
http://www.theinq.com/?article=17864
Well, from the looks of this, it's not going to be Intel. They weren't going to anyway this year (I'm assuming "1 Mpixel" is what they are calling 1280x720 [0.9216 Mpixels] panels), but it looks like they are skipping that and going for "2 Mpixel" (1920x1080 is 2.0736 Mpixel) panels next year.

Who is posting Intel stuff in my thread...! ;)

We are still planning to have a small number of 1080p sets by the end of the year - I doubt the US will see any (except at my house of course) at this stage.

With respect to the US market, we are courting a new customer (won't say who until it is public) that would firmly target the US market, so if that comes together we should have US product from a brand you know in 2005. I think that 2005 will be the year 1080 hits the market in the US.

My lack of participation of late has been largely due to our focus on these things... my apologies!

Cheers!
DAve.

Thanks for the update Phloyd and I can't say I'm surprised. I'm having lots of fun already with my 19x12 23" WUXGA LCD panel so I'm not in such a rush for the big screen. I hope somebody in the industry can deliver a good 1080p product by year-end. The first one out is sure going to apply some pressure to force the other's hands.

When these 1080P sets hit the streets are we going to have to wait for the networks and the programming to catch up since they are now broadcasting in 720P or 1080i, or is it a simple modification they make?

Haha far from simple. Don't plan on seeing 1080p broadcasts for a long time, each network would have to buy all new encoders at the least. I would expect (or at least hope) to see HD-DVD (or Blu-Ray) in 1080p as well as WMV9. At least up converting from 1080i or 720p is not going to look as bad as from 480i.

In other news, did anyone see this? http://www.twice.com/article/CA445340.html?display=breaking+news

Dave, are you guys still looking at the same time frame? Any idea what's going on with Intel?

As far as broadcasting goes, we may never see 1080p 60 fps broadcasts. However, 1080p 24 fps (for movies) is one of the ATSC standards. Conceptually, any box that claims to cover all of the ATSC standards should manage 1080p 24 fps. HBO and Sho MPEG streams are encoded 24p for broadcast these days, with flags to allow 24p to 30i conversion.

Also, it is possible to use a PC as a source at 1080p 60 fps. And it would not surprise me if Playstation 3, etc., allow this kind of framerate. On PC's, you can watch the WMVHD 1080p 24 fps sources.

Lastly, it is rumoured that prerecorded Bluray discs (and probably HD-DVD too) will have 1080p 24 fps output as an option...

Cheers!
DAve.

Oh yeah, you can always use a scaler to deinterlace 1080i to 1080p. There are a few around and their performance will only get better. This is the mode that we run in today...

Peter, we are not tied to Intel in any way so their decisions don't affect us (except when people start 'LCos is Dead' threads ;) ). I have always thought that their timeline was very aggressive, and also that the real opportunity for LCoS lies in 1080p since that is where we are on the bleeding edge of things. To compete in the 720p marketplace is really only a $$$ thing and it would be difficult to get any manufacturer to change their current relationships for just $$$...

Other than that I have no insight into Intel... I have never even seen their demo.

Cheers!
DAve.

To all, does this thread concern Intel's LCOS tech in general?

No, this thread specifically discusses the eLCOS microdisplays.

eLCOS is a startup working in digital LCoS - for comparison, we are most similar to the JVC digital technology.

In other news, we are still here and we are making improvements, though nothing I can talk about in public at this stage.

For us, Intel's decision is not exceptionally harmful in that Sony and JVC are still working with LCoS, and it was clear that Intel were stepping outside of their area of expertise to do LCoS. For us, a number of our team have been working on microdisplays for years before eLCOS even started.

I will post here again when I have more time and when we have something I can talk about... :)

Cheers!
DAve.

Keep at it Dave. I am still rooting for the little guys like you to succeed here where giants have stumbled.

I should know in a couple of weeks if we will have very exciting news. especially for the US market.

Of course, I don't know when I would be able to make such exciting news public (you can see why I haven't been saying much - we are working hard towards goals but can't make those goals public).

Anyways, time will tell...

Cheers!
DAve.

Phloyd:

OK- a couple of weeks have passed. Any news, or estimate for when/if you might have some news? Some of us are holding off on the JVC D-ILA sets since they cancelled the 61Z795, their 61" ATSC tuner equipped version of LCoS.

Sorry - no new news. Still working hard at getting those key customers that would launch in the US market...

Cheers!
DAve.

I'd be really interested to see one of these sets when one hits the east cost. I'd really love to see how one of these sets compares to Sony's high acclaimed Qualia 006 trickling onto the market in January. Especially since the price point sounds like it would be much lower. That would really help with the WAF factor.

Sony definitely seem to be aiming for the high end of the market...! :)

Though that is typical of Sony.

I will be interested to see how the Sony unit performs...

Cheers!
DAve.

Assuming you (or any similar company) lands that big manufacturing customer, how long then does it take them to design their product around yours, then QA it, then get it manufactured and into a sales channel? I have worked for a few manufactures (I was writing software at the time) and it seemes like this process can take many months...

So even if you had the exciting news for the US market today, is there any hypothetical possibility of seeing an actual monitor before summer?

That is hard to say - it depends a lot on compatibility and how much would need to be changed in their current systems.

But I would expect it to take a number of months...

Cheers!

It's almost a year later. I'd imagining you guys are a little disappointed there is nothing to say at this point. I'd argue this has been both the best year ever and the worst year ever for LCOS. I hope 2005 brings you some good news.

Too bad the Sony XRD/XDR whatever version of LCOS will be 60" +. I guess Sony doesn't want mass market appeal with these sets, at least not right away. So for now, seems JVC will own this segment.

Nothing wrong with 60+ sets. If you build them... they will come.

Nothing wrong with 60"+, no, but there is something wrong with nothing *smaller* then 60"+ sets.

I think that, at least initially, there will not be much in the way of 1080 at less than 60 inches.

Personally I think that the 60 inch set is a pretty good size :)

Cheers!
DAve.

I really don't think one would see the enhancements afforded by 1080p at anything less than 60".

Unless you sat really, really close.

phloyd,
is elcos going to show anything at CES2005?

I don't recall seeing them on the exhibitor list.

I am not sure of the exact plans since I am on vacation in Fiji, but I believe that we will have a suite this year.

We will also have some of our customers showing our panels.

I will be at the show.

If the suite is "public", I will post about it - if it is "invitational", people who want to come see can PM me and we can work something out I am sure...

Cheers!
DAve.

Too bad I won't be there this year.
Let us know, when you can, who these customers are- I'd like to consider such a product for purchase. Since JVC canceled the 61Z795, I'm not sure I want to move up to 70" - and 52" may be too small.

I will post the locations of each of the customers when I know, which will likely be after Jan 3.

I will also answer PM's at that time...

Now in New Zealand, land of the Rings :) Home for Christmas! All the best to y'all for the season ... more in the new year...

Cheers!
DAve.

Originally posted by Phloyd
Now in New Zealand, land of the Rings :)
... and the land of contemporary theology and whale riding. Merry Christmas. :)

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/041221/sftu057_1.html
Didn't see this mentioned in this thread. Looks like they will be at CES.

Rack- Is there something wrong with your link? Or has it been taken down? All I get is 404.

Originally posted by navychop
Rack- Is there something wrong with your link? Or has it been taken down? All I get is 404.
I guess vbulletin didn't like the long URL. I linked to another site with the same story and a shorter URL.

THANK YOU for the link. This is good news. Hopefully products will roll first quarter, and near the 60" size- and with ATSC tuners, of course.

Those are some seriously impressive specs. Can't wait to hear about products. This is the most interesting CES-related news that I have heard...

Hi all,

At this stage it looks like there will be eLCOS panels showing at two booths in the show - Kolin and Thintek.

As noted we will have suites by invitation, and while it would be nice it seems that we won't have much time (if any) for casual visits there.

I will be in Vegas tomorrow and will post booth locations once I know them.

I am not sure what I will be up to at the show (aside from supporting our installations) but hopefully I will have time to meet up with some of you during the show... :)

Cheers!
DAve.

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20050103005131&newsLang=en
Hmm... I'm not sure what to make of this, but they do mention the eLCoS 1080p 3-panel engine.

The Kolin link at the bottom of that page agrees well with Dave

What about Syntax?

"Also previewing at CES is a 61-inch LCOS (Liquid Crystal On Silicon) TV featuring an eLCOS 1080p three-panel engine architecture that achieves brighter, smoother cinema home entertainment pictures with contract ratios greater than 1500:1 and brightness level higher than 1000 nits. "

I hope they announce all these sets can be seen somewhere in northern VA.

I just picked up on your threads and was impressed with the level of information. Does anyone know anything about the JVC HD52Z585 TV sets which uses the 3 chip DILA (my understanding it is their wording for Lcos).

I am thinking of purchasing the set but without a lot of information and the references to the toshiba failure I am leary.

The other set I was comparing against was the Toshiba 52HM84 DLP set.

Any information you can share would be great and much appreciated.

Be careful about the Toshiba's screen. Some Toshibas have very reflective screens, and the glare may drive you crazy. Other than that, they have a good rep, considering they are a DLP. I assume you are aware of the rainbow problem and color wheels eventually wearing out. These are considerations, not deal killers.

The Z585 also has a good rep. Skimming thru the threads should give you plenty of reading on these units. Some published reviews praise them. Some don't, but these tend to be older reviews or where they admitted to having pre-production or defective units (which they reviewed anyway). The recent PC Magazine review (which I think originated with Extreme Tech) was, as I have said before, pathetic. They stated the unit had a cablecard slot- it does not. They couldn't even get basic facts straight. The rest of the review was miserable, as well.

There were some production problems with some of the earlier units produced. Those produced since Sep or Oct do not seem to have those problems (inconsistent color across the screen, chromatic aberration). The picture, properly adjusted, is beautiful. IMO this is the best set, outside of a CRT, for watching SD material. But of course, it really shines with HD.

I think you'll find the JVC appears more "film like" and the Toshiba more "video like." New JVC versions with ATSC tuners and cablecards are now shipping (I hear) and the model number is 52Z795. There is also the Z575, very much like the Z585, but with a black and silver case, and a few other minor differences.

You'll find people to bad mouth both sets. I have come to prefer the JVC (after first preferring Samsung DLP). But there is no wrong answer. I'm sure you'll be happy with either.

Originally posted by rogo
What about Syntax?


It sounds like Syntax is somehow related to Kolin - I will find out what the deal is and post here. It does sound like the booth may be under "Syntax" as opposed to "Kolin"... in any case I should know more soon...

To date I have only heard about Kolin...

Cheers!
DAve.

Thanks, Dave, for chiming in. If you learn any more detail, I'm sure you'll share it.

It indeed appears that Syntax will be the US branding for Kolin TVs.

We are expecting to have two TVs at the Syntax / Kolin booth with eLCOS panels but different internal optics.

Cheers!

Originally posted by Phloyd
We are expecting to have two TVs at the Syntax / Kolin booth with eLCOS panels but different internal optics.
So ... which internal optics are better? ;)

Any word on where such TVs will be sold?

Syntax has pretty broad distribution at places like Target, Costco, etc.

Thank you- I never looked at TVs at Target. And since I have a Sam's card, and a BJs card, I'm kinda reluctant to get Costco, too. For various reasons, both the current cards must stay.

Anyway, sounds like they'll be reasonably priced. But with the new JVC release, I'm pretty well sold on their upcoming products.

The booth is listed as:

Syntax Groups-Taiwan Kolin LVCC SO 2/25757

As for which optical engine is best - I have only seen one so far so I can't say ;)

That said, I am scheduled to be at the booth from noon onwards today, so feel free to drop by and say hello.

WRT the JVC, the only comment I have to make is: Beware if you want to use the TV as a computer monitor. If the 720 is anything to go by, it does not work well (and the manual actually says not to do it).

Cheers!
DAve.

Yes on the JVC - computer link. But the new ones have a PC connection, so I have hopes that failing has been corrected. Given how small a percent of their market plans to connect a computer, I'm grateful they did it.

But I look forward to seeing all LCoS sets. At least, those significantly south of $10,000!

dave,
I visited the syntax booth today and saw both the LCOs Tv's there, I must say I was very dissapointed with the performance. The smaller set which was sitting on the perimeter of the booth looked like its gamma was completely wrong, the blacks were very crushed and it looked like it was not outputting more than 100 lumens, looked very dark.
The bigger 61" 1080p had a very washed out image, the contrast could not have been more than 200:1.
Why such poor performance?
Salman

The bright lighting in the South Hall is definitely washing the images out somewhat.

None the less you probably missed the best engine which is around the back of the booth - it is notable by the SYNTAX logo being clearly taped over the logo from the Chinese brand.

I haven't looked much at the ones that you likely saw.

I am not sure that the small one has our panels at all - or it may be TN as opposed to VAN. I'll take a longer look at those two tomorrow...

The larger one has a different engine from our usual systems and my colleagues didn't get much time to work on it.

The TV around the back, between the two LCD flat panels is the best one to check out. It is also a bit washed out looking compared to our suite demo, even though the TV's look almost identical in the same environment.

I should be at the booth tomorrow (Fri) until 10am and then again after 2pm or so... and I will be around the back (closest to the Swensen Ave entrance). At any time if you talk to eLCOS staff, you are looking at the better of the TV's since that is where we hang out :)

Cheers!
DAve.

DAve ducks Rogo by showing up just after Rogo leaves Thursday. :)

DAve's colleague, though, gave Rogo a nice rundown of the big Syntax.

Rogo thinks that he is talking to himself in the 3rd person and needs help. :D

Oh, the TV is promising.

As "The Who" said, "... won't get fooled again."

But 2005, shaping us as Last Chance of Superchip could be the year that LCOS actually becomes real. eLCOS, Spatialight, JVC, Sony.... Ooooh....

DAve's colleague informed DAve of the visit :)

I think promising is a good description. It is also good for USA besed members interested in these TV's that Kolin has Syntax for US distribution.

Also, I asked the Syntax guys about the other TV's and it seems that the 50 inch TV's (I think there are three) are JVC panels. Only the two 60+ inch TV's are eLCOS panels.

Cheers!
DAve.

Originally posted by Phloyd
DAve's colleague informed DAve of the visit :)

DAve's colleague should have called the cops -- I'm sure there was felony lurking going on. :rolleyes:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1750401,00.asp
They have a little bit about the eLCoS display, but more importantly, a picture, too!

Thanks for posting the link.

That one is our prototype 60" from the suite, which few got to see since it was off site and by invitation.

I like how the pictures come out with a picture - I wonder if the same would be true of DLP RPTV's...??? ;)

Cheers!
DAve.

Here is an article from EE Times (http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=159902122)

It is not overly revealing but it does echo that fact that we are still here ;)

Cheers!
DAve.

Originally posted by Phloyd
It is not overly revealing but it does echo that fact that we are still here ;)
We missed you! ;)

Whoever wrote that article does not understand resolutions. They quoted the 1920x1080 chips as being interlaced, when they are actually progressive. Big difference!

Yeah, I saw that. Interlaced flat panels... I guess it is possible but I can't see why anyone would do it...

Well, it could save on bandwidth I guess.

Cheers!

New Digitimes article. Interview with our VP of sales.

Let me know if there are any lies ;)

Digitimes article Part 1 (http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20050401PR201.html)

Digitimes Article Part 2 (http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/Article.asp?datePublish=2005/4/4&pages=PR&seq=200)

Cheers!
DAve.

From the last question, first part of that article:

Q: What is driving that level of growth?

A: One factor is the availability of high resolution content. About 80% of the satellite-TV channels available in the US, for example, are now providing content at 1080i resolution.

I want to know what satellite company he's subscribing to.

LCOS 1080 TV units, at 60 inches, can be made available for US$3,000

So how long do I have to wait for my 60" 1080p LCOS set? I have a feeling "can" doesn't necessarily mean "will".

Q: And once we have our 1080p resolution, what would we need to look for, in terms of quality?

A: We would need to look for high brightness, high contrast and excellent color performance, These would be the three criteria if price is not to be considered. JVC TVs can look very good, according to these criteria

Interesting that he leaves out black level performance on this list, since this really is the greatest PQ weakness for these types of TVs. Maybe high contrast is meant to imply good blacks, but high brightness contributes to contrast too, and he still singles brightness out. Disappointing, since black levels and artifacts are the two issues that concern me most with LCOS sets. I would hope LCOS manufacturers would address these shortcomings, rather than touting the things that LCOS already does well, like brightness, as the epitome of PQ.

Yeah, well I said he is a sales guy.

I agree that 'can' won't necessarily mean will. Part of the advantage that LCOS can offer is that it competes very well already on price, so there is lots of room to move when the price wars start. But I can't imagine any major company coming in a lot lower than competitors for no good reason...

The sat thing is clearly wrong - I'll beat him up about it next time I see him. He is located in Taiwan, so I guess he is not so well informed... :)

Cheers!
DAve.

He probably meant as a percentage of all HDTV transmissions, not all transmissions.

navychop - I think you are on to something, since ABC, ESPN and Fox are the ~20% at 720... Good catch.

Cheers!
DAve.

He probably meant as a percentage of all HDTV transmissions, not all transmissions.

That makes sense.

I'll beat him up about it next time I see him

I didn't realize you knew him. Instead of beating him up, can you ask him what can be, or is being, done to improve black levels on LCOS sets? It was an interesting article overall, and I think LCOS has a good chance to become the best RPTV technology (until and unless TI switches to 3-chip DLP and does away with rainbows for good). I'm looking forward to the day when LCOS can compete with CRT and Plasma PQ (some say it's already here with the Qualia, but not at current Qualia prices). If LCOS wants to become the dominant RPTV technology, they have to stop competing with DLP and LCD, and start competing with CRT and Plasma.

No need to compete with CRT- it's dying out. CRT RPTVs are already uncommon, and the direct view CRTs are expected to go in a very few years as improved LCDs approach them in price.

And we'll see if plasma can continue price reductions like LCDs.

Better black levels essentially require better optics and better LC formulations. These things are being worked on and will continue to be the focus of LCOS and optical engine manufacturers.

I have another article featuring an LCOS manufacturer. It is a pdf file.

UMO President JJ Lee on LCOS for RPTV (http://www.umo-lcos.com/aboutumo/pdf/20050316.pdf)

I am not sure if it offers more insight or not...

Cheers!
DAve.

Just a little news:

JDSU had their new LCOS engine on display at SID.

One of these engines contained eLCOS 1920x1080 parts. This is one of the best optical engines I have ever seen and with the new BCE compensation parts they have measured 4600:1 on an uncalibrated system.

As well as awesome on/off contrast ratio performance, the ANSI contrast in their engine is exceptionally good - it is one of the best images that I have ever seen. Focus is also very sharp and alignment is excellent.

It will certainly be interesting to see how they go with the commercialisation of this engine.

I will post more as it becomes known, but it will likely be some time before this engine is seen in a real product.

But I will say this - it is the engine that I want in my lounge room!

Cheers!
DAve.

Thank you for keeping us updated.

Phloyd,

Interesting post, but I'm somewhat at a loss.
Who is JDSU and what is SID?

JDSU is JDS Uniphase. They are an optics company who have worked on optical engines for DLP and now also LCOS.

SID is the Society For Information Display (http://www.sid.org) - their conference was this week in Boston.

Cheers!
DAve.

Still think it would be nice to see some comparisons of all-digital LCoS fidelity versus analog final-stage LCoS fidelity. Maybe HD resolution wedges, with the optical engines, etc. as close to each other as possible, and with zoomed photos. -- John

Phloyd-
Everyone seems to be getting excited about the new 1080p models coming out.
Any new news on eLCOS front? I think you have a lot of people hoping for success.

There is nothing that I can really talk about right now.

Do keep an eye out for an article in Widescreen Review in the November edition. There was recently an LCOS shootout and the resulting article and review is expected to be in that edition of WSR.

Of course I will try to keep updates here if there is any news that is made public.

Be assured that we are still here and have some exciting developments for sure...

Cheers!
DAve.

Will that shootout be about products that are out at that time or products to come?

Most of the products in the shoot out are prototypes or product demonstators as far as I know.

The eLCOS / JDSU / Silicon Optix product demonstrator will be shown at HDTV Forum next week.

You can see a press release here (http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=93471) and a discussion about said press release here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=571508)

Cheers!
DAve.

Most of the products in the shoot out are prototypes or product demonstators as far as I know.

The eLCOS / JDSU / Silicon Optix product demonstrator will be shown at HDTV Forum next week.

You can see a press release here (http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=93471) and a discussion about said press release here. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=571508)

Cheers!
DAve.
There is a certain someone who could learn from your balanced approach.

Every time your thread pops up I know it will be for "good" reason.

Do keep an eye out for an article in Widescreen Review in the November edition. There was recently an LCOS shootout and the resulting article and review is expected to be in that edition of WSR.

They have a teaser on the Widescreen Review website of the shootout now, just the first page, in their Flash sample of issue 102.

Do keep an eye out for an article in Widescreen Review in the November edition. There was recently an LCOS shootout and the resulting article and review is expected to be in that edition of WSR.

Recall summarizing it recently in a post. Unfortunately, it's a three-parter, with only general panel info in the Nov. issue, some measured results in Dec, and final, perhaps resolution results the following month. I listed the models, which includes one demonstrator, several 720ps, and other 1080p models. -- John

As I understand it the part III has yet to complete. Overall it should make a very interesting read.

Cheers!
DAve.

- What's the light efficiency of the LCOS panel only, excluding the optical engine?

- How many % of the polarized light get loss just due to the liquid crystal material only?

I've read the DILA that JVC uses is 93% reflective. LCoS as a technology will be much higher than LCD, since LCD circuitry must surround the active material.

- What's the light efficiency of the LCOS panel only, excluding the optical engine?
Others may have more detailed data, but from the Nov. WSReview's Table 2:

PANEL PANEL CONTRAST RATIO
Brillian >6000
eLCoS >6000
JVC Consumer >5000
JVC Pro >5000
Sony Qualia >3000
Sony XBR >5000
Spatial Light >3500

--John (Hmm. Cols. aligned before sending post)

The reflectivity of the aluminum material used it around 93%.

Once you factor in fill factor and other losses associated with Liquid Crystal assembly the resulting reflectivity is typically around 85%.

Cheers!
DAve.

reflectivity 0.93(93%), fill factor 0.90(90%) and light efficiency ?%
Therefore, overall light efficiency is 0.93x0.90x?=0.85 (your claim) that's impossible due to the fact that 0.93x0.90=0.84 assuming there's no loss of light thru the liquid crystal, so light efficiency of liquid crystal is 100%
So is there a light loss due to only the liquid crystal?

85% was a rough number... For more detail you will need to talk to someone closer to the LCA process.

85% was a rough number... For more detail you will need to talk to someone closer to the LCA process.
Thank you, Phloyd.
What's LCA stand for? Liquid Crystal A..... ?
Do you know of anybody that I could e-mail concerning the light loss due to the liquid crystal ONLY?

LCA is liquid crystal assembly

Hi All,

Long time no talk - been kinda busy. Nothing I can talk about sadly.

We will be at CES this year in a couple of customer booths and suites.

Konka will be in the South Hall and is probably the only 'publically' available demo. The is one other but I am not sure about it yet so I will add here if/when I find out more.

I have not seen the Konka TV's but I gather they will have 50 through to 70 inch screens on display.

Have fun!

Cheers!

Just an update...

Probably the best example of eLCOS is with the JDSU demonstrator at Dai Nippon.

Their booth can be found at the back of the South Hall on the ground floor.

Enjoy!

Cheers!
DAve.

PS. I saw Mr Bott! :)

I went by there and it was an extremely nice RPTV (even though it is a prototype). I like the new screen material very much and the eLcos light engine looks beautiful. It does not sound as if anyone is going to have a TV by the end of the year however and I don't know that I can wait that long.

I saw the Komka set and thought it looked pretty good.

I saw the Komka set and thought it looked pretty good.
I saw it too (I thought it was Konka), but I thought the screen looked better on DNP prototype. It did not have the SSE that some other screens has. The DNP guy said that they have Mitsu, JVC and Samsung as a customer and that they could carry the new screen as soon as March if they decide to.

The 70" was at Konka.

The new DNP screen is indeed very nice. The optical engine in that unit is also a higher performance architecture compared to the Konka so it looked very nice indeed.

This thread in the LCOS Front Projector forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=627322) is about an eLCOS based front projector that was demonstrated in a private suite for those interested in other eLCOS news...

Cheers!

Hello Phloyd,

Apologies to the moderators and users of this site, because I have posted this question elsewhere - but i think i might now have found the man to answer it.

I have recently read an informative article by Dr. Raymond Soneira about LCoS technologies (‘LCoS Display Technology Shoot-Out’ )
I have just one question from the article on an area which I am not sure about.

Dr.Soneira states; “The physical process that controls the brightness of each pixel is actually analog for LCoS and all other Liquid Crystal based technologies”, and adds of LCoS Digital Width Modulation; “The end result is still an analog response of the Liquid Crystal”.

In relation to this I have found a passage by Shigeo Shimizu, Yutaka Ochi, Atsushi Nakano (of JVC stating), “In digital driving, LC is driven by pulses so the LC molecule is always moving and the output light intensity is also changing”

My question is, therefore – when Dr. Soneira states that of DWM LCoS systems ‘The end result is still an analog response of the Liquid Crystal’, does this mean that the light levels output (i.e. the greyscale) still results from analog modulation…or given that the “LC molecule is always moving and the output light intensity is also changing” is the greyscale produced by similar means to the DLP (i.e. digital / binary pulses of light)?

I very much hope someone here could shed some light (old puns are the best) on this issue for me.

(unfortunatly I can't provide the URLs for these articles as this is my first post - but they are easy to Google with the quotes I have given)

The statements are all correct (though I can see why it would be difficult to follow what is going on).

The drive is like the drive for DLP - on/off pulse width modulation. However it is important to note that the liquid crystal does not respond instantly to the drive (DLP doesn't either but it is so fast that it is almost instantaneous).

As Ray stated, the LC determines light output in an analogue sense. The molecule 'twist' in an analogue system (like the SXRD) is driven by an analogue voltage.

In a digital PWM the twist is driven by a digital high or low signal. In that sense, the LC is always trying to twist to max (white) or min (black) twist - hence is always moving (per JVC statement). However due to the slower resonse time of LC compared to the modulation, if you are showing a grey level the twist never reaches the maximum - the opposite drive is applied and the twist now start to move towards the 'new goal'.

So it is fair to say that there is a constantly changing twist on the LC and that the LC effectively filters or averages the PWM drive waveform somewhat. So the LC actually has a twist that is analogue, though always moving towards the white or black drive.

This LC filtering is actually advantageous over DLP (where there is next to no filtering in the system - it is all in your head) for helping to filter the digital modulation to a true grey level.

For example, typically if you take a picture of an LCOS display, digital or analogue, the picture will be very close to the image on the screen - you will not see much if any distortion due to 'freezing the modulation pattern'.

Cheers!
DAve.

The statements are all correct (though I can see why it would be difficult to follow what is going on).

The drive is like the drive for DLP - on/off pulse width modulation. However it is important to note that the liquid crystal does not respond instantly to the drive (DLP doesn't either but it is so fast that it is almost instantaneous).

As Ray stated, the LC determines light output in an analogue sense. The molecule 'twist' in an analogue system (like the SXRD) is driven by an analogue voltage.

In a digital PWM the twist is driven by a digital high or low signal. In that sense, the LC is always trying to twist to max (white) or min (black) twist - hence is always moving (per JVC statement). However due to the slower resonse time of LC compared to the modulation, if you are showing a grey level the twist never reaches the maximum - the opposite drive is applied and the twist now start to move towards the 'new goal'.

So it is fair to say that there is a constantly changing twist on the LC and that the LC effectively filters or averages the PWM drive waveform somewhat. So the LC actually has a twist that is analogue, though always moving towards the white or black drive.

This LC filtering is actually advantageous over DLP (where there is next to no filtering in the system - it is all in your head) for helping to filter the digital modulation to a true grey level.

For example, typically if you take a picture of an LCOS display, digital or analogue, the picture will be very close to the image on the screen - you will not see much if any distortion due to 'freezing the modulation pattern'.

Cheers!
DAve.

After all, digital signals are just a special case of analog and is digital in the way it is interpreted.

BTW Phloyd, anything new on the eLos front. I said the prototype in the DNP booth at CES- quite impressive. The DNP screen is impressive too and looks to improve any RPTV.

I can't really talk about many of our current activities. We are kind of in stealth mode on many fronts.

The DNP screens and the JDSU optical engine with our panels at CES were indeed a nice combination.

I also read a press release from Cinetron saying that they are aiming to release their front projector in September. I personally am looking forward to that...! :)

Cheers!
DAve.

After all, digital signals are just a special case of analog and is digital in the way it is interpreted.

This is indeed true.

Though a key reason to go digital PWM is that you go from accurately controlling a wide range of voltages in the analogue system to accurately controlling time in the digital to achieve the same goals.

Of course, controlling time in a digital system is relatively a simpler task.

Cheers!
DAve.

Phloyd (DAve), many thanks for your reply - I defo think I get it now.

If anybody else is interested in the difference between PWM LCD ad DLP (which is inherently PWM), moments after I read Phloyds answer I got this from Rod Sterlng (chief engineer at JVC) - essentially saying the same thing...

"JVC has 2 basic devices, an analog backplane and digital backplane. In the analog backplane, all signals are digital up to the final driver and it is a DAC that converts to 10 bit to analog conversion to the LC.

In the digital backplane, as noted in Shimizu paper, the LC is driven with a PWM of multiple pulses per pixel, the LC does integrate this over the frame time (actually less, about 6 msec) and smoothes out the pluses, so in effect you still get an analog effect, verse DLP, were your eye does the integration, this gives a smoother (temporally) image and no prone to headaches."

Now this is all cleared up in my mind I can actually get on with my life - phew!

I saw some pictures posted that were taken at Spatialight's suite at CES that show a drive board for Spatialight's new .55-inch panels that looks suspiciously similar to an ELCOS drive board.

Take a look the picture from Spatialight’s CES suite:

http://picasaweb.google.com/Mag48ANCR/CES2007/photo#5019613169568581362

And compare this to the TMP controller board on the ELCOS page pointed to below:

http://www.elcos.com/products/productshowcase.php

While the boards are not identical, they do look to be very much alike, so much so that it looks like the board in the Spatialight’s suite is a next generation of the an ELCOS board.

It makes me wonder if Spatialight is really showing ELCOS panels and if so, what is Spatialight really making? It also makes me wonder why ELCOS would be letting Spatialight use their panels and electronics.

I applaud you observation. :)

I really cannot say anything more than that at this time.

Cheers!

I really cannot say anything more than that at this time.

Cheers! :)

Sorry that we have not been very forthcoming with information of late.

Also sorry that the website is so out of date.

We will work to update the website and I hope to bring further information about what we have been up to.

I also hope to update the Cinetron front projector thread since there are some incorrect assertions there.

But for now I need to wait until I know what can be publicised and what must remain in stealth mode.

Cheers!

Any followup info on what has become of eLCOS?

Well, eLCOS is still there :D I guess that is an achievement in itself really, since others have died off...

RPTV is probably never going to happen unless it is 'resurrected' as a thin chassis laser based system. With curved mirrors and other tricks they can get to 7 inches thick for a 70 inch screen. That sort of thing is probably a ways off though.

In front projection we are still working with Cinetron and they have a small number of units going into retail, though I think mainly in Europe.

We do have ongoing developments though can't really talk about those. One longer term project will be extremely interesting I think, assuming all goes well.

What a shame. I love my LCoS unit and I think RPTVs give the best bang for the buck.

I have to agree with you navychop. I have a LCOS as well for over a year and it still stuns me occasionally. RPTVs just are not "sexy" like some of the other technologies and like lemmings...

Yeah the decisions to exit RPTV are pretty much due to marketing / market share issues.

People want the flat panels.

Even DLP is going to see a diminishing market share, and they are fighting back with novel ideas like 3D to try and maintain an edge.

Perhaps it is a good time to pick up an SXRD on clearance :D

Hmmm- I'd rather not take my chances with the green blob. Had hopes for fresh faces and new players to advance the technology.

Dave, any word about Foreal led1080lcos mini projector
http://www.forealspectrum.com/idx_md_led.html

Now there's a toy I'd like to buy!

I have not heard anything about that one.

There certainly are people pushing for tiny projectors using LEDs or Lasers.

Cost vs 'value' will be a problem for a while I think.

Phloyd,
Believe both eLCoS, plasmas, and DLPs use pulse width modulation (PWM) to light subpixels. Surprised to come across a few threads (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=991844) from plasma owners complaining about PWM "noise" that seems to "dirty" images.

Can different methods of PWM avoid such noise? Also, can display designers reconcile using pixel-by-pixel deinterlacing chips to form a 1080p signal, then depend on dividing the screen into blocks or areas--seemingly akin to earlier, cruder adaptive deinterlacing--that some descriptions of PWM imply for display? (That seems to negate the benefits of pixel-by-pixel deinterlacing.). Thanks. --

When you pulse width modulate a LCOS display how do you differentiate the low black levels. Doesn't the slower response times of LCOS compared to dlp give you problems in the Low IRE regions?

'PWM noise' is not really much of an issue for us.

The response time of DLP is exceptionally fast, so they reveal the 'PWM noise' the most in that you conceptually can see every on and off switch and your eyes or brain effectively does all the filtering to give you levels of grey.

For LCoS the slower response time actually helps filter the PWM inherently so that what is presented is an already somewhat filtered version of the PWM waveform.

Plasma I imagine also filters to some extent - perhaps less than LCoS.

Alternatively they may be presented with issues in switching frequency with Plasma that does not apply to us. I don't know why plasmas would appear to be noisy.

Personally the biggest issue I have seen of late with plasma relates to differential time response in the colours resulting in rainbow effects not too unlike a single chip DLP system. I don't know what is the root cause of this issue.

mlang - we have a couple of advantages over DLP for shadow detail - one is the filtering mentioned above due to the response time and the other is that the response curve of LCoS to voltage is more like a gamma curve below 50% where DLP is linear and to DLP therefore needs a lot of resolution in order to map to a standard gamma with any accuracy in the shadow area.

Phloyd,

Have you measured the MTF of the LCOS chip directly say with a polarization microscope or doing a scan at the other end of the polarizer after one to one imaging.

what I am curious about is the contrast of the chip at high spatial frequencies. Obviously LCOS with the Wiregrid polarizers has a great on /off performance as demonstrated by the 30,000:1 contrast ratios for the entire array but what is the contrast ratio for two pixels One completely turned on and one completely turned off.

Liquid crystals rotate their molecules in response to the electric field. given the packing density is there leakage across adjacent pixels? does the electric field from one pixel effect the electric field of the adjacent field next to it.

also How are the polarizers oriented. With the electric field fully on is that when the brightness is at its highest level?

Are the polarizers a primary source of light scatter and do you get diffraction effects when at high transmittance?

what is your opinion about using a fourth pixel array to increase higher spatial frequency contrast?