San Francisco, CA - Comcast [Text View] - Page 27

keenan

05-20-05, 04:28 PM

It really doesn't have much to do with Comcast, but so what...:p

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Online piracy, cable threaten DVD rentals

David Lazarus
San Francisco Chronicle
Friday, May 20, 2005

That heavy breathing you hear isn't the sound of Netflix investors hyperventilating over the company's let's-be-friends truce with Wal-Mart on Thursday.

It's Darth Vader, illustrating why Netflix could be in for a nasty light sabering as digital downloads increasingly define how people get their home entertainment.

While Netflix and Wal-Mart were announcing their peace pact, pirated copies of "Star Wars: Episode III -- Revenge of the Sith" were already being passed around online, just hours after the film opened in theaters.

By midday Thursday, thousands of people had downloaded the movie, according to sites that track such things.

As online piracy proliferates, and as corporate heavyweights like Comcast, DirectTV and SBC eye video on demand as a digital cash cow, is there a place in this new era of couch potato-ism for the likes of Netflix and Internet movie rentals?

Not if you ask Jim Keenan, a Santa Rosa house painter who takes his TV viewing very, very seriously. He has a 73-inch high-definition television, a DVD player, a digital video recorder and a fat Comcast cable package.

Keenan, 50, is also a Netflix member and says he enjoys being able to rent DVDs by mail. But as soon as Comcast gets around to providing a comparable video-on-demand service, he knows what he'll do.

"If their movie library and their prices are as good as Netflix, I'd go with Comcast," Keenan told me. "I'd even pay two or three dollars more per month to avoid the hassle of putting discs back in the envelope and sending them back."

At first blush, the terms of Netflix's accord with Wal-Mart look like a win for all concerned. Wal-Mart will abandon the online DVD-rental business and will add its relative handful of subscribers to Netflix's 3-million-strong membership base.

In return, Netflix will steer its subscribers to Wal-Mart's DVD sales. Wal-Mart is already the country's largest DVD retailer.

Investors saw the deal as a clear victory for Netflix. The Los Gatos company's stock soared 17 percent after the news broke, although it ended the day just 4 percent higher. Wal-Mart's shares shed 7 cents.

Give this thing a moment's thought, however, and it's hard not to see Wal- Mart as the smart one. The company invested millions of dollars getting an online movie rental service off the ground and never made much of a dent in Netflix's business.

So it's cutting its losses and walking away from the experiment. Yet Wal- Mart isn't leaving empty-handed. It's having its DVD sales promoted to Netflix's customers, which can only lead to increased revenue.

Netflix reported a quarterly loss last month of $8.8 million. For the full year, the company is projecting a loss of as much as $15 million as rival Blockbuster keeps trying to eat its lunch.

Responding to Netflix's détente with Wal-Mart, Blockbuster said it'll give members of either service two free months of movies and a free DVD if they switch over.

Amazon.com, meanwhile, is expected to get into the online movie rental game in a big way anytime. (It's already trying it out in Britain.)

Reed Hastings, Netflix's chief exec, is a smart guy. He pioneered the online rental business and is working with TiVo for some sort of broadband video-on-demand service. (The details are still fuzzy.)

But Hastings' plans for global domination still center on the notion that nobody will come up with a better way to watch movies at home than DVDs.

"DVDs will be the dominant medium for movies for perhaps as long as the gasoline engine," he told an interviewer in autumn, no doubt meaning that the format will remain a ubiquitous part of our lives and not that it'll cost a fortune to keep running.

But you have to wonder. Just as TiVo and other digital video recorders have reinvented the way many people watch TV, rapid advances in video-on- demand technology could have just as big an impact on movies.

People have been saying this for years, of course, but it looks like all those pie-in-the-sky promises are finally coming to fruition.

Comcast, for example, is all but betting the farm on video on demand. As part of these efforts, the company contributed $300 million to the Sony-led acquisition of MGM's huge library of 4,000 movie titles and more than 10,000 TV episodes.

"When we first launched video on demand last year, we had about 2,000 hours of programming available," said Andrew Johnson, a Comcast spokesman. "Now, we have 3,000 going on 4,000. By next year, we're looking at 10,000 hours."

Does Comcast see itself eventually offering the same breadth of choice as a corner video store, basically having just about anything you'd want to watch when you want to watch it?

"That's something we can see happening in the foreseeable future," Johnson replied.

Telecom giant SBC has similar aspirations. The company is investing heavily in broadband technology and hopes to begin providing video service to 18 million homes nationwide by 2008.

"We want a robust video-on-demand offering," said John Britton, an SBC spokesman. "It's going to grow and grow and grow."

And it's a fair bet that rental prices from cable, satellite and telecom providers will be competitive with the $17.99 a month now charged by Netflix.

This isn't to say that DVDs are about to disappear. But it does suggest that Wal-Mart was the least of Netflix's problems.

What the company should be worried about is the thousands of people who downloaded ripped-off copies of "Star Wars" on Thursday and the ease with which this happens.

What it should be really worried about is Jim Keenan up in Santa Rosa, sitting by his 73-inch HDTV set and patiently waiting for Comcast to get its act together.

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Hey, Comcast, notice Mr. Keenan is patiently waiting for Comcast to get its act together. :D

davisdog

05-20-05, 04:36 PM

Here's the same Article 15 years from now
:D

Not if you ask Jim Keenan, a RETIRED house painter who takes his TV viewing very, very seriously. He has a ****105-inch high-definition television****, a DVD player, a digital video recorder and a "GIGANTIC" Comcast cable package.

Keenan, 65, is also a Netflix member and says he enjoys being able to rent DVDs by mail...

.........but the hardest part is pushing his wheelchair out to the mailbox everyday and he is looking forward to when Comcast gets around to providing a comparable video-on-demand service

According to Comcast, that should happen anyday now.

keenan

05-20-05, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by davisdog
Here's the same Article 15 years from now
:D

Not if you ask Jim Keenan, a RETIRED house painter who takes his TV viewing very, very seriously. He has a ****105-inch high-definition television****, a DVD player, a digital video recorder and a "GIGANTIC" Comcast cable package.

Keenan, 65, is also a Netflix member and says he enjoys being able to rent DVDs by mail...

.........but the hardest part is pushing his wheelchair out to the mailbox everyday and he is looking forward to when Comcast gets around to providing a comparable video-on-demand service

According to Comcast, that should happen anyday now.

http://www.emotipad.com/newemoticons/Crowd-Grin.gif

That is f'ing funny....:p

My gravestone will have a cable feed going into the ground for me while I rest in peace waiting for Comcast to get their act together, should be any day now Comcast told the cemetary manager...:D

drignoll

05-20-05, 04:51 PM

Originally posted by keenan
I haven't read it, the reporter just called me yesterday, I had no idea it would be out so soon...so, did I sound like an idiot..?? :p :D

So, are you the reporter's go-to source on all things HDTV?

keenan

05-20-05, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by drignoll
So, are you the reporter's go-to source on all things HDTV?

Not really, he got my name from Todd Wallack, a fellow reporter with The Chronicle, who got it from Mikef5, I think...although I have emailed Wallack about things pertaining to Comcast in the past..

Would be nice to have that sort of influence though....:p

who_the

05-21-05, 01:29 PM

Got a message on my 6412 in S.F. today "announcing" On-Demand on Channel 1 and adding that some PPV channels (802-813 I think; I deleted the message:() would no longer function after June 12.

gtree10

05-21-05, 08:16 PM

Anyone getting the A's/Giants game in HD?

IndigoBlu

05-21-05, 08:24 PM

yup!

gtree10

05-21-05, 08:31 PM

I'm in the Sac area, just got off the phone with a csr who said the game isn't available in either the Sac or Bay Area market.

edmc

05-21-05, 08:56 PM

Your SAC CSR is wrong - it's on FSN-BA HD which is preempting InHD2 (105.2 by frequency, 720 by channel number here in Pleasanton, CA).

Sorry you can't get it in SAC...

Oh, and these games are the very best example of the deficiency of the MPEG-2 decoder in the 6412 box. The decoder in my Sharp 45" LCD yields a far crisper picture.

gtree10

05-21-05, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by edmc
Your SAC CSR is wrong - it's on FSN-BA HD which is preempting InHD2 (105.2 by frequency, 720 by channel number here in Pleasanton, CA).

Sorry you can't get it in SAC...

Oh, and these games are the very best example of the deficiency of the MPEG-2 decoder in the 6412 box. The decoder in my Sharp 45" LCD yields a far crisper picture.
Yeah, I wanted to verify the Bay Area was getting the game, so I could call them back and complain about the lies being told every time I call.

who_the

05-21-05, 09:38 PM

Yeah, HD on KTVU/Cable 702 here in S.F... Is this the first Giants game ever in HD on KTVU? Certainly this season.

Game is also on FSBA (Ch. 720) with the A's broadcasters (including former Giants' voice Hank Greenwald).

PQ looks much better on FSBA. Anybody know if KTVU is using 720 or 1080? My guess would be 720, since it's a Fox affiliate.

I hope this is the first of more Giants HD on KTVU.

wco81

05-21-05, 09:50 PM

Hmm, not sure if FSBA is better. They're using different cameras at different times. FSBA is breaking up.

wco81

05-21-05, 09:52 PM

Hey but does that mean there are at least two HDTV production trucks in the Bay Area?

Why wouldn't they just simulcast with different announcers and different logos?

davisdog

05-21-05, 10:11 PM

KTVU is 720p
InHD is 1080i

sfhub

05-21-05, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by edmc
Oh, and these games are the very best example of the deficiency of the MPEG-2 decoder in the 6412 box. The decoder in my Sharp 45" LCD yields a far crisper picture.
Is that using component or DVI/HDMI? I agree Sharp 45" LCD using
internal QAM tuner produces very crisp HD. I'm wondering if the
6412 "deficiency" is mpg decoder, interconnect to TV, or combo of both.

shortstop

05-21-05, 11:57 PM

Is this the first Giants game ever in HD on KTVU?

According to the Giants website:

http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/sf/schedule/broadcast.jsp

Today was the first of ten games to be carried by KTVU-HD. Next game is Thurs.
vs. the Dodgers.

tranle

05-23-05, 12:40 AM

sfhub

05-23-05, 06:09 AM

I'm also in same area. Seeing the same breakup problems also, except I don't have breakup on 707/ABC, that channel is perfect (as is KQED which shares the same RF frequency). I see massive breakup on 702/FOX and 705/KPIX (which share the same RF frequency) and minor audio breakup/clicks/pops on INHD1/2 and ESPNHD.

This all started about 11 days ago (Fri 13th) when the channels all went out and then came back later. I used to have perfect 0 errors on all my HD channels, but after they came back between Sat and Mon, I started receiving tons of errors. Some were correctable errors, but inevitably uncorrectable errors started showing up, which result in pixelation and audio click/pop/breakups.

You can see the errors on a particular channel by tuning to that channel, then pressing "power (off)", then pressing "Ok" to get the service menu. Then select option "D04 inband status" At the bottom of the page, you will see 2 entries, one for uncorrectable errors and one for correctable errors. On 707/KGO I have zero for both error categories and the channel comes in perfect on both Motorola DCT-5100 and Sharp Aquos internal QAM tuner. For 705/KPIX/CBSHD I get between 250-3000 correctable errors and 0-32 uncorrectable errors. Prior to Fri 13th (yeah, I know the the irony) I was getting zero errors for all my HD channels.

I know it is something on Comcast side because I got rid of all splitters and bypassed my electroline drop amp so I had connection straight from drop point to my DCT-5100 using RG6 cabling and I was still getting errors. The errors were slightly less and most of the time they were correctable, but there were still occasional breakups, so the problem was still there but slightly masked. In any event, that should not be relevant to the problem, as I used to get zero errors on these channels prior to Fri 13th and my existing setup worked fine for 10 months prior to that. Something clearly changed for the worse and they should fix it.

I think you should call and complain. I don't think it is a known problem or they would have fixed it by now. 2-3 days I can understand they could still be trying to fix, but after 1+ week, I assume they don't know about it. When I called they said there were no known problems in this area.

It is quite possible many folks are getting the errors, but since they have simple connections direct to their cable box, the errors are falling in the "correctable" category, thereby masking the problem. I think folks with more complicated setups are seeing the effects of the increase in errors.

My Sharp Aquos is especially sensitive to the errors. If the "recoverable" errors on my DCT-5100 go above 50, the Sharp Aquos starts to have pixelation and audio breakups. The DCT-5100 seems to be more robust at handling the errors as it can work oblivious to the errors even with correctable errors around 500-700. Once it reaches 800-3000 correctable errors, that translates to some amount of uncorrectable errors and even the DCT-5100 starts to breakup audio/video.

keenan

05-23-05, 08:50 PM

Not really the bay area, but interesting none the less. It would have been nice if the reporter had more detailed info.
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From the Calaveras Enterprise

Comcast picks Calaveras to try new technology

By Vanessa Turner
Sunday, May 22, 2005 5:55 PM CDT

Calaveras County Comcast Cable customers will soon be the first group in the country to experience the cable company's new all-digital technology.

Comcast will be contacting its "expanded basic" and "digital service" customers in Wallace, San Andreas, Valley Springs and Mokelumne Hill to schedule a visit to come out and install a new box, which houses the new technology.

Basic cable customers will not be affected.

The new box is about the size of a cigar box and brings new services, which include Comcast On Demand, a video on demand service with a new children's network and improved parental controls, according to Comcast representative Susan Gonzales. Eighty percent of the content is free.

Gonzales is working on getting the word out about the trial. There are 7,100 customers in the county, of which 2,000 will be affected.

But also, Comcast digital customers in Calaveras County that are outside the trial area will be given Comcast On Demand by the end of summer.

"Every customer is getting some new service," Farrell Moseley, Comcast Central Valley manager, said.

Trial implementation is set to begin on or after July 5 and will be complete by fall 2005.

Calaveras County was selected by the company for a test run because of its demographics, according to Moseley.

"Calaveras beat out Half Moon Bay," Moseley said. "Calaveras has a good cross section of the nation. Also, there's a large interest in advanced services."

Moseley also said that Calaveras has strong leadership in its county supervisors and citizens.

Comcast laid the groundwork for carrying the new technology back in 2003 after taking over AT&T's cable operations in 2002. It upgraded the cable system to a larger bandwidth to accommodate the additional services it wanted to bring into the area.

Those services, aside from Comcast on Demand, are high definition television (HDTV) and digital video recording, which will be available for customers in the trial area for $9.95.

What this means for customers in the affected areas, is they need the new technology to continue receiving Comcast Cable, Gonzales said. There's no additional charge but customers need to convert or they will be watching "snow."

"Expanded basic" and "digital service" customers in the affected areas will receive up to three boxes for free. Beyond that, there would be a $1.99 per month charge.

Once the new technology is installed, Comcast will conduct customer surveys to rate their satisfaction. The company will then determine the best way to offer its expanded services to other customers in Calaveras.

A demonstration van will be touring Valley Springs June 2 displaying the Comcast on Demand service.

http://www.calaverasenterprise.com/articles/2005/05/23/news/news01.txt
The Calaveras Enterprise

sfhub

05-23-05, 10:14 PM

Depending on how you look at it, this could be great news or very crappy news.

Sounds like they plan on dropping analog completely, rendering many VCRs useless, and adding complexity to TiVo and ReplayTV users.

The 3 "free" boxes are just not enough for many folks. For some folks it will be plenty, but I think lots of people have grown used to being able to record one channel on their VCR and watching another channel on their TV.

Personally I wouldn't be happy unless they gave me as many boxes as I needed and replaced my recording devices with PVR set top boxes. Otherwise I will just switch to satellite. Analog (and no need to use STB for my recording devices) is the only reason I'm sticking with cable. I don't give a crap about their enhanced services and based on various figures of how many people have migrated to digital cable, many other folks feel the same way. Even then, I won't be happy because each of these STBs uses about 25-30 watts of power whether they are turned on or not, so my electric bill will go up as if I left a 100 watt bulb running 24/7. Not very environmentally friendly for CA where we have some of the highest electricity prices in the nation due to past folly.

On the other hand if you are on a 550Mhz system with no hope of being upgraded and you just want more HDTV channels, this could be very good news.

As an aside, it is interesting they are packaging this as an "upgrade" to Calaveras systems. It is actually a significant downgrade. They are completely dropping analog service, not because users want it, but because Comcast needs the extra bandwidth for more money making services that the users may not even want.

I haven't seen what an "all digital" system will look like, but based on past experience with their "digital" channels, the picture in many cases will be *worse* quality than analog because they are using 525x480 or 480x480 frame buffer instead of 704x480, because the former uses less bandwidth. When the smaller frames are stretched to fit 16:9 display devices, the picture looks soft and blurry, significantly worse than stretching the analog signals. I've seen the unpublished "digital" versions of OLN, GOLF, and TVLANDP and they look like crap compared to the analog versions (which weren't great to start with)

> What this means for customers in the affected areas, is they need the new
> technology to continue receiving Comcast Cable, Gonzales said. There's no
> additional charge but customers need to convert or they will be watching "snow."

This is a pretty arrogant statement to make. If they try to pull the same thing in the bay area, I won't be watching snow, I will be watching DirecTVs new satellites.

IMO what they should really do is simulcast analog and digital for a relatively long transition period to ween people off analog rather than going cold turkey. That is what I thought they were planning to do in the bay area with this QAM256 conversion thing. I hope that is what they are still planning on doing instead of turning to the Calaveras cold turkey solution. As to how long the transition period will run, IMO it will be until there is a critical mass of CableCard recording devices and displays. Despite what the cable companies think, people just don't like dealing with STBs and that is a significant reason why people stick with cable instead of moving to satellite.

On the plus side, at least they are doing it in a test area to get feedback rather than unilaterally making the change in all regions.

davisdog

05-23-05, 10:20 PM

that's exactly what I'd like to see them do in the 550Mhz areas (short of upgrading the bandwidth of course)....That will reclaim tons of bandwidth for them to provide HD, VOD etc ...The locals remain on analog and the extended basic channels move over to digital channel to free up bandwidth but they provide customers a little digital box for free...In addition comcasts gets the box in all these homes so they can entice them with all sorts of other stuff via the digital box (with the prospect of customers ordering additional services after this)

sfhub

05-23-05, 10:28 PM

Woops, I guess I missed the point they were leaving analog locals on the transmission. It sounded like they were dropping all analog. I don't mind if they move the vast majority of expanded basic channels I could care less about onto digital only, but leave the more popular expanded basic channels like MTV, FX, TNT, CNN, etc. on analog/digital simulcast and I certainly don't mind if they just do this for our 550Mhz brethren who are suffering, but I don't want to suffer if I'm in an 750/860Mhz area.

keenan

05-23-05, 10:45 PM

Sort of makes you wonder about the quality of a box that Comcast is willing to provide up to 3 of them for free...the current Motorola STB's aren't the cat's meow themselves...

neoufo51

05-24-05, 05:56 AM

Hi,
I am getting image breakup and sound dropout for all of the local HD channels for more than a week:
702 (KTVUD), 703 (DKNTV), 705 (KPIXD), 707 (KGOHD)

I am in Mountain View, CA, and just wanting to know if it was a general known problem or should I call Comcast and complain.
According to a new message I'm seeing on my box, there will be a "digital picture quality upgrade" on the 25th. I'm in redwood city, so this will probably apply to you also. Check your box to see if you got the message, and anybody else reading this...check your boxes for the message and watch your tv on the 25th (LOST!) to see if picture quality has indeed been improved.

davisdog

05-24-05, 10:11 AM

According to a new message I'm seeing on my box, there will be a "digital picture quality upgrade" on the 25th. I'm in redwood city, so this will probably apply to you also. Check your box to see if you got the message, and anybody else reading this...check your boxes for the message and watch your tv on the 25th (LOST!) to see if picture quality has indeed been improved.

I wouldnt expect the changes they are making starting on the 25th to fix that problem.

They will start converting the digital channels from QAM64 to QAM256 to recover some bandwidth (and then start digital Simulcast)...the conversion isnt instantaneous..it will be ongoing for several months and it should not affect picture quality for the existing digital channels

kevini

05-24-05, 11:23 AM

I wouldnt expect the changes they are making starting on the 25th to fix that problem.

They will start converting the digital channels from QAM64 to QAM256 to recover some bandwidth (and then start digital Simulcast)...the conversion isnt instantaneous..it will be ongoing for several months and it should not affect picture quality for the existing digital channels

Yes as Bmark said the east and south bay conversion to 256QAM is starting on the 25th. I got the message in Fremont too.

I think they just put up the message so when you loose some channels because of poor SNR you call in. 256QAM needs at least 30db SNR whereas 64QAM only needs 24db SNR.

sfhub

05-24-05, 12:12 PM

According to a new message I'm seeing on my box, there will be a "digital picture quality upgrade" on the 25th. I'm in redwood city, so this will probably apply to you also. Check your box to see if you got the message, and anybody else reading this...check your boxes for the message and watch your tv on the 25th (LOST!) to see if picture quality has indeed been improved.
If anything, this may actually delay the diagnosis and repair of the problem in MtView because all the network techs are busy with the QAM64->QAM256 upgrade.

The HD channels are already QAM256 so they are not being upgraded. Given it has been 10 days now of high error counts, pixelation, audio click/pops, it is unlikely Comcast is even aware of the problem. If you attenuate the signal 10db you can get the error count lower, like 150-300 instead of 300-3000, which has the effect of making most of them correctable. Problem is, your return path for HSI and onDemand may likely get screwed by the attenuation so that is just a temporary diagnosis tool.

sfhub

05-24-05, 01:12 PM

I think they just put up the message so when you loose some channels because of poor SNR you call in. 256QAM needs at least 30db SNR whereas 64QAM only needs 24db SNR.
BTW my box was reporting 34-36db SNR for the HD channels (256QAM) which were having pixelation and audio drops problems. I'm thinking during this QAM64->QAM256 transition period there may be some problems because QAM64 was more tolerant.

greeno

05-24-05, 02:07 PM

cavaniws

05-24-05, 02:59 PM

Last night, just for grins, I switched my set over to the 6200 s-video feed (I usually on use the 6200 for the HD feed) to see how the analog stations looked after processing by the 6200.

To my surprise, all the stations looked really good (analog: 2-82, digital: all others) on this input. I have expanded basic plus the digital tier.

Has the Livermore HE been upgraded to digital simulcast so that my STB doesn't have to do any processing? Somethings clearly changed for the better, but I'm not sure what it is.

Thanks,
jeff

I'm in Novato and last night when I got home, there were 3 Comcast bucket trucks on my street. I thought on no the cable’s out and I’m going to miss the conclusion of 24. Needless to say, as soon as I got in the house, I turned on my TV.

To my relief, the cable was still working. My TV happened to be on channel 7, the local ABC-TV affiliate, and the picture was absolutely the best I had ever seen on an analog channel. I tried some of the other analog channels using "both" tuners, and most of them were just as good. The digital channels looked as good as always.

My first thought was that Comcast must have converted the analog channels to digital because they looked so good. But when I checked them on the diagnostic menu, they were still analog. Next, I checked some of the digital channels, and they were still QAM 64. Unfortunately, by the time I went outside to ask the Comcast techs what they had done, they were already gone. So I don’t know what they did, but I’m sure glad they did it.

I guess the analog tuner in the DCT6412 isn’t as bad as everyone thinks it is. And maybe it's the "quality" of the signal Comcast is sending into our homes that is the "real" cause of poor analog picture quality.

cavaniws

kevini

05-24-05, 03:45 PM

I guess the analog tuner in the DCT6412 isn’t as bad as everyone thinks it is. And maybe it's the "quality" of the signal Comcast is sending into our homes that is the "real" cause of poor analog picture quality.

cavaniws

I agree, the you do some mpeg noise introduced by the encoder but in general if I leave the output as 480i the analog tuner is not too bad. Setting it to 480p or 1080i leaves me with a terrible analog picture.

That said the analog picture at my current house is much better than my last house. It really depends on the distance between you and the node with analog.

Kevin

sfhub

05-24-05, 05:44 PM

My understanding is the *deinterlacer/scaler* in the Motorola boxes is not that good. It was so bad they needed to add a feature to the firmware to pass through 480i instead of converting to native output resolutions of 720p/1080i. The 480i pass through looks fine to me, comparable to using internal tuner of TV.

You will clearly know if they switched you to digital locals/expanded. There will be no "noise" in the picture. On top of that, the picture can look from great to crappy depending on the frame size they use and compression ratio. 4:3 sets will look decent with most any digital signal, but 16:9 displays configured to stretch 4:3 content will look like crap unless the frame size is 704x480i.

Analog cable can look from great to crap also depending on signal strength and signal quality. My particular area has pretty good analog. It looks much better than the 525x480 digital SD though there is noticeable noise.

tranle

05-24-05, 09:47 PM

I wouldnt expect the changes they are making starting on the 25th to fix that problem.

They will start converting the digital channels from QAM64 to QAM256 to recover some bandwidth (and then start digital Simulcast)...the conversion isnt instantaneous..it will be ongoing for several months and it should not affect picture quality for the existing digital channels

You are right I don't know if the QAM64 => QM256 will help anything in my case, as all the problems that I am seeing are on HD channels that are already on the QAM256 modulation.

I had called the support and they did not know anything (no message from above) and the only thing they could do was to send a reset to my box. As I did not have a problem with all the channels, they did suggested that it could be a problem with the broadcasters.

John Mace

05-24-05, 10:33 PM

sfhub

05-24-05, 10:55 PM

As I did not have a problem with all the channels, they did suggested that it could be a problem with the broadcasters.
The errors I'm seeing are definitely from Comcast. I have ATSC tuner that has no problems with KTVU/FOXHD and KPIX/CBSHD when viewed simultaneously with Comcast HD equivalents. The correctable and uncorrectable errors are on Comcast's signal. The question is whether it is at headend or somewhere in between. It definitely wasn't anything in my home because the tech tested the signal at the curb and the errors were still there.

MikeSM

05-24-05, 11:23 PM

I'm in Novato and last night when I got home, there were 3 Comcast bucket trucks on my street. I thought on no the cable’s out and I’m going to miss the conclusion of 24. Needless to say, as soon as I got in the house, I turned on my TV.

To my relief, the cable was still working. My TV happened to be on channel 7, the local ABC-TV affiliate, and the picture was absolutely the best I had ever seen on an analog channel. I tried some of the other analog channels using "both" tuners, and most of them were just as good. The digital channels looked as good as always.

My first thought was that Comcast must have converted the analog channels to digital because they looked so good. But when I checked them on the diagnostic menu, they were still analog. Next, I checked some of the digital channels, and they were still QAM 64. Unfortunately, by the time I went outside to ask the Comcast techs what they had done, they were already gone. So I don’t know what they did, but I’m sure glad they did it.

I guess the analog tuner in the DCT6412 isn’t as bad as everyone thinks it is. And maybe it's the "quality" of the signal Comcast is sending into our homes that is the "real" cause of poor analog picture quality.

cavaniws

A good analog signal can be awfully good. I live one drop off a fiber node and find the analog picture very good in general. Of course, if you are at the end of a long set of amps, you aren't going to be as happy. Digital holds up better through transport systems in general, but that doesn't mean you can't see good quality analog.

Thanks,
Mike

fender4645

05-25-05, 02:17 AM

And done! Whew!! After being out of the country for 2 months w/o access to AVS (or my HDTV) , it's not the easiest thing in world to read ~30 pages of posts! Looks like I didn't miss much. QAM conversion though -- that's pretty big. Hopefully they'll take care you 550 guys first.

Is Sonoma still MIA????? Looks like Keenan is handling the group just fine though ;)

neoufo51

05-25-05, 04:16 AM

Wow, May 25th just happens to be the the season finale of "Lost". If Comcast screws up the signal during that show, all hell will break lose. Why oh why wouldn't that pick a day AFTER all the big season finale shows are over???
If LOST cuts out during its incredible 2 hour season finale...I will kill everybody within a 3 block radius...

Well, ok...maybe not, but I will be pissed.

By the way..Evangeline Lilly is on HD Conan right now and she looks really really hot, talking about a guy who stole her panties while Chris Rock makes her laugh.

Mikef5

05-25-05, 12:37 PM

Ok, I just received an email from Mr. Johnson about the 256 QAM conversion that is happening starting today. I have his permission to post it here so I will in it's entirety.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In order to optimize bandwidth and provide new services such as HDTV and VOD, Comcast will be converting all digital channels from a 64 QAM to a 256 QAM protocol.

The first of five phases to achieve this conversion to 256QAM will begin today and conclude on August 17th.

This migration is the first step in the process to put in place the "All Digital Simulcast" project which is being engineered now.

The All Digital Simulcast Project will result in all of the signals, (from both local and national broadcasters) distributed from our set-top boxes will be 100% digital.

The primary goal is to improve the customers signal quality compared to what they are currently receiving.

What is Happening: On 05/25/2005, we will begin this migration with 16 digital channels. We will then move onto other areas and channels until all digital channels (including Music Choice and PPV) are upgraded to 256QAM.

Why is this Happening: Converting all digital channels to 256QAM will gain us additional bandwidth. Currently, only High Definition and On Demand services are offered via 256QAM. Eventually, all channels will be delivered via 256QAM.

Customer Impact:

· As we migrate the digital channels to 256QAM most customers won't notice a thing. However it is important to note that moving from a 64QAM to 256QAM network could cause an increase in service problems for some customers.

· The 256QAM network is more sensitive to "noise" in the plant meaning signal problems hiding under the surface on a 64QAM network may be exposed on a 256QAM network.

· Customers that are having troubles from this conversion will most likely call in to report tiling or "One Moment Please" issues for a group of digital channels

· Oftentimes, tightening a loose connector on the back of the DCT or at the outlet will be enough to correct the problem. If tightening connections do not correct, most likely a truck roll will be required to fix.

The specific channels for the 05/25 conversion are as follows:

Display Channel Programming
164 Shop NBC
182 Fine Living
400 Comcast Sports Net
413 Fox Sports Network Atlantic
414 Fox Sports Central
415 Fox Sports Pacific
482 Black Family Channel
484 Great American Country
486 The Word
517 Encore East
533 Starz East
550 HBO East
556 HBO Family East
562 Cinemax East
575 Showtime East
579 Showtime Showcase East

Important Information:

The DCT 1000 model boxes are incompatible with a 256QAM delivery and will no longer function once this conversion is made.

We estimate that several hundred of these boxes remain in customer's home despite our efforts to contact each of them and swap out the boxes.

Each area is working on a strategy to remove this type of converter out of the home prior to the completion of the conversion.

If a customer calls in and is reporting no service on their DCT1000 (see list below for model types), please ask them to take the box into their Customer Service Center or book an Service and Repair Order to have the box replaced free of charge.

These boxes can be identified by the following method: The first 4 numbers on the bottom of the receiver after DCT are 1134.

Customers that only have Basic or Standard Cable but do not have equipment will not be affected.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is what Comcast plans to do and the reasons for doing it. I hope this helps in dispelling any concerns that people may have with this change over to all digital.

Laters,
Mikef5

kevini

05-25-05, 12:45 PM

Thanks MikeF5. It is great to find out exactly what they are doing. It sounds like they are converting 2 x 6MHz carriers today

I bet they may see some issues in the south easy bay with converting these particialar channels. ShopNBC etc is at 603Mhz which is the same frequency as KICU-36. If there are any ingress problems in the plant they are definitely going to get one moment please.

I had massive ingress problems on my 256QAM channels before they fixed it.

Mikef5

05-25-05, 02:26 PM

Ok, an update to the conversion schedule.
I posted the first phase channels that are going to be changed. Here are the next 2 phases of channel changes that will occur.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

* Phase 2 - June 1st & June 15th

Display Channel Programming

122 Toon Disney
126 Nick Toons
128 Bloomberg News
135 MTV 2
137 Trio
138 Wisdom
183 E! Style
215 Nick GAS
222 FIT TV
230 Trinity Broadcast Network
231 Inspirational Life
275 A&E Biography Channel
276 A&E History Channel International
406 Outdoor Channel
418 CSTV
476 Fuse
504 Lifetime Movies
506 Fox Movies
558 HBO Latino
600 Utilisima
601 Discovery en Espanol
602 Fox Sports World Espan
603 Telemundo Inter
604 Cinelatino
605 VH1 en Espanol
606 MTV Espanol
608 CNN en Espanol
609 Toon Disney en Espanol
610 HTV Musica
851 Spice
941 Musica Latina
942 Salsa Y Merengue
943 Rock en Espanol
944 Latin Love Songs
945 Mexicana

* Phase 3 - June 22 and July 6

Display Channel Programming

125 Newsworld International
136 G4 Media Channel
178 TWC Weatherstation
181 Bravo
203 HGTV
216 NICK TOO
228 BYU
229 Eternal Word -EWTN
277 HISTORY WEST
407 ESPN Classic Sports
407 ESPN CLASSIC
472 MTV Hits
474 VH-1 Soul
481 BET on Jazz
505 Sundance West
518 Encore West
520 Encore Love Stories West
522 Encore Mystery West
524 Encore Westerns West
528 Encore True Stories West
530 Encore Action West
534 Starz West
536 Starz Edge
537 STARZ IN BLACK
551 HBO West
553 HBO (2) Plus West
555 HBO Signature West
557 HBO Family West
561 Cinemax West
565 MoreMax West
576 Showtime West
578 Showtime Too West
580 Showtime Showcase West
582 Showtime Extreme West
591 The Movie Channel West
593 The Movie Channel Xtra West
852 Spice 2
904 AMERICANA (MC unencrytped)
905 BLUEGRASS
906 R&B AND HIP HOP (MC unencrytped)
908 SMOOTH R&B
909 RAP
913 CLASSIC ROCK (MC unencrytped)
915 ELECTRONICA
917 PROG. ADULT CONTEMP. (MC unencrytped)
924 SOLID GOLD OLDIES (MC unencrytped)
929 JAZZ
930 BLUES
933 CLASSICAL MASTERPIECES
935 LIGHT CLASSICAL (MC unencrytped)
938 GOSPEL

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's nice to see this is really starting to happen and sooner than I thought it would :)
Thanks Mr. J for the info and updates.

Laters,
Mikef5

sfhub

05-25-05, 04:04 PM

· As we migrate the digital channels to 256QAM most customers won't notice a thing. However it is important to note that moving from a 64QAM to 256QAM network could cause an increase in service problems for some customers.
Well looks like they started the migration in South Bay. I've just lost all my analog and digital channels within the last hour. Hope it comes back in time for the finales tonight.

EDIT: looks like it's back now. About 30-60mins of downtime. Still getting uncorrectable errors on QAM256 HDTV channels like 702FOX/705CBS, just like before (not that I was expecting any change since I believe it is separate problem)

keenan

05-25-05, 04:11 PM

Is Sonoma still MIA????? ;)

Yes he is, there are only two things I can think of that might keep him away and neither of them is good, but hopefully everything is good with him.

Looks like Keenan is handling the group just fine though

Nope, not me, I'm just the head griper... :D

keenan

05-25-05, 04:14 PM

In order to optimize bandwidth and provide new services such as HDTV and VOD, Comcast will be converting all digital channels from a 64 QAM to a 256 QAM protocol.

The first of five phases to achieve this conversion to 256QAM will begin today and conclude on August 17th.

Laters,
Mikef5

This is a good thing....mmm...August 17th, right about the same time DirecTV is probably going to light up a load of new HD channels.... :p

Mikef5

05-25-05, 04:16 PM

Well looks like they started the migration in South Bay. I've just lost all my analog and digital channels within the last hour. Hope it comes back in time for the finales tonight.

That shouldn't of happened, only the channels in the 1st phase should be affected. Did you lose them completely, no channel will be available in a moment or such message ??? If I were you I'd give Comcast a call, you should not of lost all your channels and analog isn't even part of this first phase transition.

Laters,
Mikef5

sfhub

05-25-05, 04:22 PM

That shouldn't of happened, only the channels in the 1st phase should be affected. Did you lose them completely, no channel will be available in a moment or such message ??? If I were you I'd give Comcast a call, you should not of lost all your channels and analog isn't even part of this first phase transition.
I edited my original post. It is back now. I had about 30-60 minute outage of all analog, digital SD and digital HD. They are all back now. It affected various folks on my block but I'm not sure how widespread.

keenan

05-25-05, 06:25 PM

bobby94928

05-25-05, 06:57 PM

It might be associated. The 256QAM is much more sensitive to noise. It's not supposed to affect the the already 256 channels, but you never know.

sfhub

05-25-05, 07:13 PM

I'm getting a bunch of blocking and loss of picture on Discovery-HD and HBO-HD. Getting occasional uncorrectable error counts in the high 3 digits, even low 4 digits. SNR and AGC are bad as well. The other channels seem to be fine although their SNR and AGC numbers are not as good as they used to be.

None of this should be connected to the 64-256QAM conversion should it?
This is what I've been complaining about for 11 days now, way before the QAM256 conversion officially started. Besides, the HD channels have always been QAM256 and they worked fine for over half a year. Comcast made some change recently that is causing the trouble. The SD channel QAM64->QAM256 conversion shouldn't have any direct effect, but it may have had an indirect effect if they broke something along the way. Either that, or this is a totally separate problem.

Mikef5

05-25-05, 07:30 PM

I'm getting a bunch of blocking and loss of picture on Discovery-HD and HBO-HD. Getting occasional uncorrectable error counts in the high 3 digits, even low 4 digits. SNR and AGC are bad as well. The other channels seem to be fine although their SNR and AGC numbers are not as good as they used to be.

None of this should be connected to the 64-256QAM conversion should it?

It should not affect channels that are already 256 QAM, like HBO-HD and Discovery-HD, if they were working before they should still be working. Only the channels listed in the first 3 phases should be affected but then again that would be in a perfect world and nothing is perfect. I don't expect to see problems until the 3rd phase, that's when the most channels for the SaraMilGatos area gets converted so I'll have to hold my breath til then... ;)

Laters,
Mikef5

keenan

05-25-05, 07:33 PM

This is what I've been complaining about for 11 days now, way before the QAM256 conversion officially started. Besides, the HD channels have always been QAM256 and they worked fine for over half a year. Comcast made some change recently that is causing the trouble. The SD channel QAM64->QAM256 conversion shouldn't have any direct effect, but it may have had an indirect effect if they broke something along the way. Either that, or this is a totally separate problem.

I'm only getting it on those two channels, but the rest of the HD channels appear to be on the cusp of getting bad judging by the SNR and AGC numbers they have.

In fact, on the few occasions in the last few months that I have checked those numbers they seem to be, on average, much worse than when I checked them 6-7 mos ago.

I agree that the conversion should not affect already 256QAM channels, unless they are pairing them up with newly converted channels, maybe putting 5-6 digitals with one HD.

I have a tech coming out tomorrow to resolve a CableCARD issue so I'll see what happens then.

<5:00 PM> It seems to be fine now....

kevini

05-25-05, 08:55 PM

sfhub

05-25-05, 08:55 PM

I'm only getting it on those two channels, but the rest of the HD channels appear to be on the cusp of getting bad judging by the SNR and AGC numbers they have.

In fact, on the few occasions in the last few months that I have checked those numbers they seem to be, on average, much worse than when I checked them 6-7 mos ago.

I agree that the conversion should not affect already 256QAM channels, unless they are pairing them up with newly converted channels, maybe putting 5-6 digitals with one HD.

I have a tech coming out tomorrow to resolve a CableCARD issue so I'll see what happens then.

<5:00 PM> It seems to be fine now....
I'm jealous yours is fixed now.

The pairings haven't changed in a long time. There are no SD "digital cable" channels paired with the HD channels. The only SD channels paired with the HD channels are the local SD channels which are the same as the OTA ones.

All my problems started on May 12th. When I checked May 9th, all my HD channels had *zero* uncorrectable and correctable errors as reported by Motorola DCT-5100.

Between May 12th and May 13th I started seeing pixelation and audio drops on 702/KTVU/FOXHD and 705/KPIX/CBSHD. The correctable error rates had skyrocketed to 150-3000. Once the correctable reaches around 1000, you start seeing uncorrectable errors.

By attenuating my signal 10db, I can get the correctable errors down to about 150-300, but the problem is I also have a TV with builtin QAM tuner. It is more sensitive to errors and will start pixelating with audio drops at around 30-50 correctable errors (as reported by DCT-5100) I'm unable to get the error rates back to what they were prior to May 12th. The other problem with attenuating is this makes onDemand and HSI less reliable.

This television had worked perfectly for about 2 months prior to the May 12th problems. It works perfect on 707/KGO/ABCHD and 709/KQED/PBSHD, which happen to be modded on the same RF channel and have *zero* errors, both before and after May 12th.

So basically my internal QAM tuner is rendered virtually useless (as would a CableCard install in my location)

sfhub

05-25-05, 09:01 PM

Keenan if your plant overhead or underground? The overhead plants especially loose gain when the temperature rises. The underground plants do too but not as badly since the cable is in the cool earth. On a day like today my signal level goes down by 3-5db's. When it cools down in the evening the signal comes back up.

My signal is strong enough so I don't get any tiling but if I split it one more time it suffers during the day. From your previous post that installing a splitter caused tiling I would say your signal is right on the edge.

Comcast are going to have to get your signal strength higher tomorrow so you are not so close to the edge! At least they come out during the day so they can see the problems at their worst :)
This is actually the opposite issue I have. My signal strength is +8db at the cable box, which I've been told is quite hot. When the signal strength to the Motorola boxes is too high (as well as too low), they start getting errors. I can reduce the errors by *attenuating* the signal 10db. The problem with reducing the signal strength is it does it across the board and my analog PQ suffers as well as problems with HSI and onDemand.

The cable lines in my area are underground.

fender4645

05-25-05, 09:33 PM

They're obviously converting the least-watched channels first so any glitches they find can be ironed out with minimal customer complaints. The real test is when they start doing the analog channels....

kevini

05-25-05, 09:47 PM

This is actually the opposite issue I have. My signal strength is +8db at the cable box, which I've been told is quite hot. When the signal strength to the Motorola boxes is too high (as well as too low), they start getting errors. I can reduce the errors by *attenuating* the signal 10db. The problem with reducing the signal strength is it does it across the board and my analog PQ suffers as well as problems with HSI and onDemand.

The cable lines in my area are underground.

That is pretty hot but within spec. The DCT can normally handle up to +15 fine. You probably find the ramp on one of the nearby amps is off and it is making the upper frequencies too hot.

When you attenutate you are getting the high frequencies within spec but making the low frequencies too weak for analog, HSI return etc.

Comcast uses ramped amps to make up for loss at the higher frequencies. Sometimes if you are a number of amps from the node or if one of them is having a problem you can end up with what you have.

I'm only one amp from the node and that amp had a ramp problem. It was making the lower channels way too hot. They replaced the "guts" and now most of the channels are equal.

My last house was connected to an underground plant. They are generally more relable since they don't have the squirrel chew and weather elements but a bad amp can cause a lot of grief!

keenan

05-25-05, 10:12 PM

Keenan if your plant overhead or underground? The overhead plants especially loose gain when the temperature rises. The underground plants do too but not as badly since the cable is in the cool earth. On a day like today my signal level goes down by 3-5db's. When it cools down in the evening the signal comes back up.

My signal is strong enough so I don't get any tiling but if I split it one more time it suffers during the day. From your previous post that installing a splitter caused tiling I would say your signal is right on the edge.

Comcast are going to have to get your signal strength higher tomorrow so you are not so close to the edge! At least they come out during the day so they can see the problems at their worst :)

Kevin

Not sure what you mean by plant, but the black boxes on the telephone pole are what my cable is connected to. It does seem as if it got better when it started to cool down and I don't remember having this problem during the cooler rainy periods.

The AGC is still working too hard, posting numbers in the 70% range and more "fair's" than "good's" as far as quality. Also getting correctable error numbers in the 300-400 range on tuner 2.

The tuner in my TV is not having any problem with this and it's equidistant from the split as the STB is.

So I guess I'll see what happens tomorrow, as long as I get Lost recorded tonight I'll be okay.... :D

keenan

05-25-05, 10:14 PM

I'm jealous yours is fixed now.

I'm not convinced it's fixed yet, so don't feel like you are alone... :p

bobby94928

05-25-05, 10:42 PM

Keenan, "plant" relates to how your signal arrives at your home. You state that the "drop" to your home comes off of a telephone pole (utility pole). That means that you have aerial plant. My drop comes from underground, therefore I am served by underground plant. Of course not all plant is entirely underground or aerial, it just depends on the total design from the head end.

Xaque

05-25-05, 10:42 PM

I live in oakland and it's almost 8pm and no change. All the channels listed in phase 1 are still 64qam. Just curious when you think it'll actually all go down.

sfhub

05-25-05, 10:55 PM

That is pretty hot but within spec. The DCT can normally handle up to +15 fine. You probably find the ramp on one of the nearby amps is off and it is making the upper frequencies too hot.

When you attenutate you are getting the high frequencies within spec but making the low frequencies too weak for analog, HSI return etc.

Comcast uses ramped amps to make up for loss at the higher frequencies. Sometimes if you are a number of amps from the node or if one of them is having a problem you can end up with what you have.

This is all good theory, but I do not believe that is what I'm experiencing.

The reason I say so is because ESPN-HD and KGO-HD are very close in RF frequency (116.3 and 117.1) so even if the amp was off, these two channels should see roughly the same effect. Attenuation is different at different frequencies, but these are so close it should be pretty similar. Both are at +8db but ESPN-HD is seeing around 50-150 correctable errors, while KGO-HD is seeing zero errors.
723 116.3 ESPN-HD ESPN HD
7.1 707 117.1 KGO-HD ABC HD

What I've been told is the DCT-5100 can handle +15db for QAM64, but for QAM256 they were seeing problems around +5-8db range. I don't know if I totally buy this because my 117.1 KGO-HD is at +8db with zero errors while 116.3 is also at +8db but with errors. I do know that the errors were reduced by attenuating 10db, but they weren't eliminated (and they were zero before) so I don't think signal strength is the only issue, rather some amps are exacerbating an underlying issue.

kevini

05-25-05, 11:13 PM

Xaque

05-25-05, 11:28 PM

Looks like they have only converted half of what they were aiming for today. 603 MHz (SHOPNBC, BFC, GAC etc) is converted to 256QAM but 639MHz (Encore, Fine living etc) is still at 64QAM. I guess they are still work in progress.

Not here for me in oakland, still nothing. I'm such a nerd waiting for my channels to switch from qam64 to 256

keenan

05-26-05, 03:16 AM

keenan

05-26-05, 03:18 AM

I'm such a nerd waiting for my channels to switch from qam64 to 256

:D :D :D :p :p :p

We're certainly an odd bunch aren't we...?! :o

Xaque

05-26-05, 03:48 AM

:D :D :D :p :p :p

We're certainly an odd bunch aren't we...?! :o

yuuuup.

I'm now getting I think 1/2 of them in 256. The quality difference is definately noticalble. I've been wishing they'd do this ever since I noticed how good the NFL network looks.

mooneydriver

05-26-05, 11:32 AM

I recently got a CableCard-capable HDTV. I also got a 6412 DVR (after a week, I'm already on the second DVR box but that's another story). Anyway, in the process of getting the DVR, I upgraded from expanded analog to Digital Silver with HBO (6 month promo at an additional $15/mo above analog). The DVR is another $9.95/mo.

I called today to order a CableCard. I do like the flexibility of having another tuner that can decode encrypted channels, and that might come in handy next time the DVR is on the fritz (it appears to be as reliable as a Yugo - thank goodness I don't own it). The CSR says that's going to be a $15.99 install fee (OK with me) and an additional $6.95 a month. I say that's nonsense. He says the CableCard is free but I need to pay for the HDTV feed for every piece of equipment that is capable of receiving HD. So I say no and hang up.

So, is the CableCard free or not? Does anyone have authoritative information on this?

wco81

05-26-05, 11:58 AM

sfhub

05-26-05, 12:16 PM

The CSR says that's going to be a $15.99 install fee (OK with me) and an additional $6.95 a month. I say that's nonsense. He says the CableCard is free but I need to pay for the HDTV feed for every piece of equipment that is capable of receiving HD. So I say no and hang up.

So, is the CableCard free or not? Does anyone have authoritative information on this?
That's total BS. You are right, the whole point of CableCard is so the user can buy their own equipment. Tell them Dish and DirecTV are giving you 4 drops to switch.

sfhub

05-26-05, 01:15 PM

kevini

05-26-05, 02:35 PM

This is what they have converted in South Bay.

I'm now seeing about 30-80 errors on these channels with QAM256 and the new frequencies vs QAM64 and the old frequencies.
QAM256
x 164 Shop NBC
182 Fine Living
400 Comcast Sports Net
x 413 Fox Sports Network Atlantic
x 414 Fox Sports Central
x 415 Fox Sports Pacific
x 482 Black Family Channel
x 484 Great American Country
x 486 The Word
517 Encore East
533 Starz East
550 HBO East
556 HBO Family East
562 Cinemax East
575 Showtime East
579 Showtime Showcase East

Exactly the same here in Fremont. All the channels at 603Mhz. No errors on mine.

As I posted above that frequency can get errors due to ingress from KICU-36 broadcasting at 4Megawatts. Ingress can be tough for Comcast to find but they can fix it....

I wonder what cause the delay in converting the other group of channels. I guess I will have to check again tonight.

sfhub

05-26-05, 03:05 PM

As I posted above that frequency can get errors due to ingress from KICU-36 broadcasting at 4Megawatts. Ingress can be tough for Comcast to find but they can fix it....
It's possible 603Mhz is seeing ingress, but the error count is roughly the same on ESPN-HD at 747Mhz. The error count on 707/ABC at 753Mhz is zero. The error count is highest on 702FOX/705CBS at 555Mhz. I personally think this is something Comcast introduced themselves at the headend due to the timing of the problems. My area had zero problems with all QAM256 and HD channels for the 12 months since they started HD service. Starting May 12th when I started seeing some postings about the upcoming QAM64/QAM256 upgrade, I lost all HD channels. When the HD channels started returning around May 14/15, then I started seeing errors on the QAM256 HD channels. Those errors have now continued on to the QAM256 SD channels. I'm going to guess the same problem causing the errors on my QAM256 HD channels is causing the problems on the QAM256 SD channels, vs 2 separate problems, ingress for QAM256 at 603Mhz and some other problem for QAM256 at 555Mhz and 747Mhz.

As to the delay, I'm sure it is just them being cautious moving channels most people don't care about first, then getting feedback, before moving channels people care about. This matches their overall schedule where the majority of channels people care about are in the last phase.

greeno

05-26-05, 03:26 PM

You got correct info, eventhough I agree that it's B.S. Your first HD box (STB or DVR) is included in your package cost. When you get a second box, or in your case a cable card, they tack on $6.95. I have to 6200's and I pay $6.95 for the second box. I've also called and complained, but to no avail. The $6.95 fee is for each additional box/card beyond the first one.

Best,
jeff

I called today to order a CableCard. I do like the flexibility of having another tuner that can decode encrypted channels, and that might come in handy next time the DVR is on the fritz (it appears to be as reliable as a Yugo - thank goodness I don't own it). The CSR says that's going to be a $15.99 install fee (OK with me) and an additional $6.95 a month. I say that's nonsense. He says the CableCard is free but I need to pay for the HDTV feed for every piece of equipment that is capable of receiving HD. So I say no and hang up.

So, is the CableCard free or not? Does anyone have authoritative information on this?

sfhub

05-26-05, 03:44 PM

I'm getting a bunch of blocking and loss of picture on Discovery-HD and HBO-HD. Getting occasional uncorrectable error counts in the high 3 digits, even low 4 digits. SNR and AGC are bad as well. The other channels seem to be fine although their SNR and AGC numbers are not as good as they used to be.

I think I figured out why you are seeing this only on DISC and HBO, or at least have a theory. DISC-HD and HBO-HD are encrypted channels. I suspect you may be (or were, past tense) getting "errors" on other channels also, but the receiver was correcting them, however with encrypted channels, the receiver is less tolerant of errors due to need to decrypt. That is one explanation for why you were only seeing visible/audible errors on DISC-HD and HBO-HD. I see errors to varying degree on DISC-HD, HBO-HD, and all the other HD channels, except 707/ABC-HD and 709/KQED-HD. Some channels it is just occasional audio breakup and the picture is fine. Some channels it is bad enough for video and audio breakup.

sfhub

05-26-05, 03:52 PM

You got correct info, eventhough I agree that it's B.S. Your first HD box (STB or DVR) is included in your package cost. When you get a second box, or in your case a cable card, they tack on $6.95. I have to 6200's and I pay $6.95 for the second box. I've also called and complained, but to no avail. The $6.95 fee is for each additional box/card beyond the first one.
Yeah Comcast is a business and they can do anything they want, but I just don't understand the justification for this. At least with the cablebox, they are giving you a piece of equipment which costs $200-$400 so there is some justification for the added fee. The CableCard can't cost them more than $20-$40, probably less in bulk. This is on top of the fact that this goes complete opposite for the reason to come up with CableCard in the first place.

How would you feel if Comcast charged you for every VCR and TV you have attached to your cable. For that matter, why the hell would anybody use a CableCard when it costs the same as STB with DVI, which has channel guide, is able to do onDemand/PPV, has correct channel mappings, etc.

You've already paid extra for the QAM/CableCard tuner in your TV, and now you are forced to pay the same as somebody who didn't buy the QAM/CableCard equipment and instead rented the equipment from Comcast. I should just demand my TV does not include CableCard so I don't get double charged.

keenan

05-26-05, 05:18 PM

You got correct info, eventhough I agree that it's B.S. Your first HD box (STB or DVR) is included in your package cost. When you get a second box, or in your case a cable card, they tack on $6.95. I have to 6200's and I pay $6.95 for the second box. I've also called and complained, but to no avail. The $6.95 fee is for each additional box/card beyond the first one.

Best,
jeff

This doesn't jive with what shows on my bill. You're saying that the first DVR or STB is included in the package price? Meaning one who gets, say, Digital Platinum, the STB is included, at no extra charge? That is not the case here in Santa Rosa, I have a separate charge of 9.95 listed as "DVR service with HDTV" for the one and only STB I have. I believe that amount includes the 5.00 "HDTV equipment fee" and a remote and I don't know how they add it all up to 9.95 as the last mandated price list I have does not list a separate charge for a DVR. They do list the amount charged if the DVR is not returned.

I just had a CableCARD installed(doesn't work right BTW) and what I understand you to say is, when I get a new bill, it should only show one hardware charge, meaning that the initial STB is included in the package price. Doesn't sound right to me. Or, at least in my experience that's not the case.

keenan

05-26-05, 05:28 PM

For that matter, why the hell would anybody use a CableCard when it costs the same as STB with DVI, which has channel guide, is able to do onDemand/PPV, has correct channel mappings, etc.

Well, in my case, if the display does not have enough inputs. This is one thing that I disliked about the new TV I got, by having a CableCARD slot, I lost an additional component input.

One thing that did just occur to me though was that I do have IEEE1394 inputs on the TV and these STBs will work with that input, without a PG though, which CableCARD doesn't have either.

If the tech coming out today cannot get the CableCARD to work, I think I will tell him to keep it and give me a 6200 instead.

sfhub

05-26-05, 07:09 PM

This doesn't jive with what shows on my bill. You're saying that the first DVR or STB is included in the package price? Meaning one who gets, say, Digital Platinum, the STB is included, at no extra charge? That is not the case here in Santa Rosa, I have a separate charge of 9.95 listed as "DVR service with HDTV" for the one and only STB I have. I believe that amount includes the 5.00 "HDTV equipment fee" and a remote and I don't know how they add it all up to 9.95 as the last mandated price list I have does not list a separate charge for a DVR. They do list the amount charged if the DVR is not returned.

I just had a CableCARD installed(doesn't work right BTW) and what I understand you to say is, when I get a new bill, it should only show one hardware charge, meaning that the initial STB is included in the package price. Doesn't sound right to me. Or, at least in my experience that's not the case.
Whether it works as described or works slightly different, I do not know. You get different answers depending on who you speak with.

What I think he is saying is you get one regular set top box free with your digital package. You chose to forego this "free" set top box and get DVR box, which you do not get for free, and thus pay $9.95. Now that you are interested in 6200, you would be better off getting the 6200 for free (as part of your digital package) then paying the $9.95 for your 6412 (which is what you are paying now)

They should offer you a credit for the DVR because you are not using plain STB that is supposed to be free, but I guess they do not do that.

I have also been told on occasion that the $9.95 DVR fee is *in addition to* $6.95 box rental fee, making your 2nd DVR $16.90.

I start getting confused whenever this area is discussed because I think the CSRs are confused and give you different answers.

keenan

05-26-05, 07:54 PM

Whether it works as described or works slightly different, I do not know. You get different answers depending on who you speak with.

What I think he is saying is you get one regular set top box free with your digital package. You chose to forego this "free" set top box and get DVR box, which you do not get for free, and thus pay $9.95. Now that you are interested in 6200, you would be better off getting the 6200 for free (as part of your digital package) then paying the $9.95 for your 6412 (which is what you are paying now)

They should offer you a credit for the DVR because you are not using plain STB that is supposed to be free, but I guess they do not do that.

I have also been told on occasion that the $9.95 DVR fee is *in addition to* $6.95 box rental fee, making your 2nd DVR $16.90.

I start getting confused whenever this area is discussed because I think the CSRs are confused and give you different answers.

This is what I was just told by the tech and his observer, who both showed up here.

If you want HD then there is a charge for equipment(STB-DVR) unless you feed the cable to a cable-ready DTV which in my case will give me all the HD minus the premium movie channels, but includes Discovery-HD and ESPN-HD, (which is probably what I am going to do and give back the CableCARD and save the 6.95 charge.)

So the first HD-capable device Comcast provides is not free, it's 5.00 for the 5100-6200 and 9.95 for the 6412. If you want just digital cable with no HD then the converter is included. The CableCard is a 6.95 fee but it would be charged as a digital access programming fee. Each additional digital outlet is a 6.95 charge.

It's ridiculous all the little charges they have, OTOH, I don't think Comcast is actually charging everyone according to their price list, meaning, some of this stuff is not being charged for.

Besides getting the CableCARD to work, the best thing I found out was that I could drop the Expanded Basic, which will save me 27.86 per month which is great for me since I never watch any of those channels anyway.

sfhub

05-26-05, 08:34 PM

If you want HD then there is a charge for equipment(STB-DVR) unless you feed the cable to a cable-ready DTV which in my case will give me all the HD minus the premium movie channels, but includes Discovery-HD and ESPN-HD, (which is probably what I am going to do and give back the CableCARD and save the 6.95 charge.)
You might want to reverify with a 2nd source what they told you as Discovery-HD is currently encrypted in many areas so I don't see how you would able to receive that channel using the internal QAM tuner in your TV *unless* you used CableCard.

walk

05-26-05, 08:37 PM

sfhub

05-26-05, 09:05 PM

Why would anyone use CableCard at all? I'm serious, I don't get it.

Many reasons.

What if you want your new TiVo series 3 to record movies from HBO-HD?

What if you want a convenient simple system where you just turn on your TV and start watching TV?

In my experience with my display, I get the best picture quality using the internal QAM/CableCard tuner vs using external STB and interconnect cables.

With my television, I have far more zoom and stetching options using the internal QAM/CableCard tuner than when using STB. With the latter, I'm often stuck with whatever picture is being broadcast. This is an issue for me when the network upconverts the NTSC transmission onto the HD channel. I don't like to see the black pillarboxes, but have no choice when it comes through the STB because I can't stretch or zoom the picture.

Now if the question was why would someone use CableCard only to pay the same $6.95 fee, then that is a very good question. It was not the intention of CableCard to cause the consumer to pay the same rental fee. The intention was so the consumer could purchase their own equipment and *not* pay the equipment rental fee. If Comcast just renames the rental fee as a "HDTV service fee" they are just playing name games.

kevini

05-26-05, 09:56 PM

Now if the question was why would someone use CableCard only to pay the same $6.95 fee, then that is a very good question. It was not the intention of CableCard to cause the consumer to pay the same rental fee. The intention was so the consumer could purchase their own equipment and *not* pay the equipment rental fee. If Comcast just renames the rental fee as a "HDTV service fee" they are just playing name games.

Remember the cablecard is only $6.95 if you have it as your "second outlet" you can not take the digital converter as part of the $9.95 Digital classic and then they will not charge you the extra.

Where the whole $5 HDTV gets really stupid is when you add the DVR.

Without the DVR if you get a DCT-6200 you pay $5 more. Regradless if you have digital classic or not. You basically loose out on the free converter. Having a clable card makes sense in this case since you don't have to play the $5 for HD.

If you have the DVR then is you don't have digital classic they make you pay $9.95 for the DVR and $5 for the HD. If you have digital classic they charge you $9.95 for the digitial classic and $9.95 for the DVR and remove the $5 HD fee. Of course now you have a converter so the cable card will be a "second outlet"

Why they make it do different with and without the DVR I have no idea.

Kevin

sfhub

05-26-05, 10:11 PM

Remember the cablecard is only $6.95 if you have it as your "second outlet" you can not take the digital converter as part of the $9.95 Digital classic and then they will not charge you the extra.

I agree with everything you said except this part. I mean it is nice to use CableCard as your "free" converter and all that CableCard enables, but...

The purpose of CableCard was so you could purchase your own equipment and not pay rental fee. It wasn't so you could purchase just one device and pay rental fee (renamed as a service fee) for all other devices.

mooneydriver

05-26-05, 10:52 PM

Why would anyone use CableCard at all? I'm serious, I don't get it.

You don't get the interactive guide, you don't get DVR, and if it breaks, or they upgrade the system and/or some new techology comes out, you're fookered. By leasing the box, you just call em up and they cart off the old junk and give you a new one... I figured once you'd need to lease the box for about 5 years before you would have saved money by buying a TV with cablecard/qam tuner instead of one without (they are about $500-600 more, at least for the size TV I was interested in). 5 years is a loooong time.... 5 years ago we didn't even have digital cable here (or just barely) let alone Hi-Def...

Well, since I was the one who started this subthread ...

1) The 6412 DVR is as flaky as a Yugo. I dared check the signal level on the diagnostic menu of the first one and promptly lost one of the tuners. Comcast voodoo (CSR "hitting" the box) did not fix it. I lost a couple of recordings because of the dead tuner. So, day 8 and I'm already on box #2. It still mutes the sound everytime it's power cycled, and it occasionally time-travels and records some show back in 1989. I'd rather not depend on this "work in progress" for all my HDTV viewing.

2) My wife is a techno-avert! It would be much simpler to give her one remote and say ... here, just use this one. And I'd rather let her use the TV for tuning purposes because her favorite channel (the Weather Channel - don't laugh, please) looks better through the excellent tuner of the Pioneer plasma compared to the DVR connected via DVI->HDMI.

3) I'd understand paying $6.95 for a second HD tuner. However, in this case, I am providing the QAM 256 tuner myself (which is where most of the value is). All I'm asking for is a pathetic CableCard the sole purpose of which is to unencrypt the few encrytped digital channels (HBO, INHD, DISC, ESPN) that I *ALREADY PAID FOR* by subscribing to the Digital Silver thing. It's not the money; it's the principle of not wanting to pay for the same thing twice. I'd take them to small claims court if I had infinite time. Alas, I don't.

I'd move to satellite in an instant if I knew picture quality would be equivalent. Unfortunately, I am quite satisfied with the cable picture quality and I'd rather not mess with something that works. Aaargh. Can't wait for fiber-to-the-curb to arrive and kick Comcast in the shin.

sfhub

05-26-05, 11:13 PM

I'd move to satellite in an instant if I knew picture quality would be equivalent. Unfortunately, I am quite satisfied with the cable picture quality and I'd rather not mess with something that works. Aaargh. Can't wait for fiber-to-the-curb to arrive and kick Comcast in the shin.
Just wait you'll have your reason to switch soon enough, they are planning on replacing your perfectly fine analog cable with overcompressed small frame SD digital and dropping your analog :) :) I'm teasing a little bit because I don't know for sure the digital simulcast of extended basic will look like existing crappy SD digital or whether they will use 704x480 frames.

sfhub

05-26-05, 11:16 PM

I think Comcast should be renamed "The Nickel and Dime Corporation".

keenan

05-27-05, 01:23 AM

You might want to reverify with a 2nd source what they told you as Discovery-HD is currently encrypted in many areas so I don't see how you would able to receive that channel using the internal QAM tuner in your TV *unless* you used CableCard.

You're are probably right, I would have to pull the card back and check. But I do remember that ESPN-HD is in the clear, in fact I think I posted what I was getting without the card earlier.

In any case I need to really pare down my cable bill as it's over $125 a month now and that's just freaking ridiculous.

walk

05-27-05, 01:53 PM

Ok... my head is spinning from all that.

The CableCard itself is property of Comcast, correct? I mean, you lease that little piece of plastic/silicon from the cableco right? Or do you buy one and they program it with the proper auth code/signal that unlocks the channels which you subscribe to?

On another note, I watched the Giants game on KTVU-HD for the first time. It looked pretty bad compared to the FSN-HD broadcasts, didn't it? It was wierd, some shots looked great, then all of a sudden it's like someone smeared vasoline on the lense.. it got all blurry.

I know KTVU/FOX broadcasts in 720p vs FSN in 1080, but ESPN does 720 also and the games there look better than what I saw on KTVU last nite. (On EPSN and all the 720 channels, ie MNF on ABC, the picture itself is virtually indistinguishable from 1080, though the graphic overlays are noticeably blurry-er).

(I have a 1080i RPTV... for grins I switched the cable box to 720 output, it didn't really look any better, so I don't think it's a converter problem)

fitprod

05-27-05, 02:14 PM

It's very possibile that some of the cameras used in KTVU's braodacast were 16 X 9, 480I or 480P (SD); and not true HD.

fitprod

sfhub

05-27-05, 03:06 PM

The CableCard itself is property of Comcast, correct? I mean, you lease that little piece of plastic/silicon from the cableco right? Or do you buy one and they program it with the proper auth code/signal that unlocks the channels which you subscribe to?

The CableCard is a PCMCIA card with some electronics on there to authorize and enable your TV to decrypt premium channels. The tuner, mpg decoder, sound processing, deinterlacer, etc. (ie the expensive parts) are all part of your "CableCard-capable" TV which you own and purchased.

I'm going to guess the CableCard costs Comcast around $20-$30. It seems out of whack with reality to "lease" a $30 card for $6.95/month. It's like leasing a wireless network card for your laptop at $30/month.

That's really besides the point, since the whole purpose of the CableCard slot is so the cable company could retain control over their programming while the consumer could be allowed to purchase their own equipment instead of leasing.

This isn't the first time this stuff has come up. The reason your cable-ready VCR can record simply by plugging into the cable outlet is because it comes with cable-ready tuner. The cable companies were urged to allow consumers to purchase their own equipment and to itemize everything you pay for on your bill in return for less strict regulation.

keenan

05-27-05, 03:54 PM

On another note, I watched the Giants game on KTVU-HD for the first time. It looked pretty bad compared to the FSN-HD broadcasts, didn't it? It was wierd, some shots looked great, then all of a sudden it's like someone smeared vasoline on the lense.. it got all blurry.

I know KTVU/FOX broadcasts in 720p vs FSN in 1080, but ESPN does 720 also and the games there look better than what I saw on KTVU last nite. (On EPSN and all the 720 channels, ie MNF on ABC, the picture itself is virtually indistinguishable from 1080, though the graphic overlays are noticeably blurry-er).

(I have a 1080i RPTV... for grins I switched the cable box to 720 output, it didn't really look any better, so I don't think it's a converter problem)
I noticed this on replays, not really anywhere else, so maybe their replay equipment is SD up-convert. Vaseline on the lens is exactly what it looks like..

What I thought was interesting was they had an HD camera way out on some pier taking a shot of the stadium, seems like a waste of a camera.

keenan

05-27-05, 04:05 PM

The only "digital" channels which map to 2-11 are the local HD channels,
which have PSIP data.

5.1 705 79.1 KPIX-DT CBS HD
2.1 702 79.2 KTVU-DT FOX HD

11.1 703 116.1 KNTV-DT NBC HD
11.2 186 116.2 KNTV-W NBC Weather
723 116.3 ESPN-HD ESPN HD

7.1 707 117.1 KGO-HD ABC HD
9.3 190 117.2 KQED-W KQED World
9.2 189 117.3 KQED-E KQED Encore
9.1 709 117.4 KQED-DT KQED HD
9.5 192 117.5 KQED-K KQED Kids
7.2 194 117.6 KGO-DT ABC DT
9.4 191 117.7 KQED-L KQED Life

The above is from an earlier post of yours. Is your display's tuner receiving all the above channels from a straight cable feed? If so, I am going to pull the CableCARD and re-check mine as when I originally checked I could only receive about half of those stations. If I could get what you are showing here then I would tell Comcast to keep the $7 mo CableCARD.

sfhub

05-27-05, 04:25 PM

The only ones you can depend on getting are the locals (FOX, NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS). Everything else comes and goes depending on what they are experimenting with that month. In particular ESPN-HD bounces back and forth with encryption. If all you care about are the locals, return the CableCard. Otherwise I would suggest keeping it rather than depending on temporary configurations and paying another install fee later on.

keenan

05-27-05, 04:38 PM

The only ones you can depend on getting are the locals (FOX, NBC, CBS, ABC, PBS).

These are the only ones I really care about having as I never record sports and rarely anything on the movie channels so I would still have the ability to record 2 programs and watch a third.

Is there any reason you can think of why I would not get the following with the internal tuner?

5.1 705 79.1 KPIX-DT CBS HD
2.1 702 79.2 KTVU-DT FOX HD

sfhub

05-27-05, 05:13 PM

There could be a couple of reasons.

Your local headend is having problems and they are not being broadcast.

Your area uses different RF frequencies for those channels.

The error rates on those 2 channels are too high so your TV will not tune them.

Those 2 channels in particular (which is expected since they are on the same underlying RF frequency, 79/555Mhz) are the ones where I see the highest error rates, 600-3000.

There could be some local disturbance in a specific frequency range.

mooneydriver

05-27-05, 05:51 PM

I'm going to guess the CableCard costs Comcast around $20-$30. It seems out of whack with reality to "lease" a $30 card for $6.95/month. It's like leasing a wireless network card for your laptop at $30/month.

That's really besides the point, since the whole purpose of the CableCard slot is so the cable company could retain control over their programming while the consumer could be allowed to purchase their own equipment instead of leasing.

I hate frivolous lawsuits as much as anyone else, but this one really deserves a class action lawsuit -- or at least a complaint to the FCC. What a sleazy way to force people to use Comcast equipment instead of what they already paid for.

keenan

05-27-05, 06:06 PM

Okay, re-scanned and I now get the following with straight cable, no CableCARD,

KTVU-HD....2.1
KPIX-HD.....5.1
KGO-HD.....7.1
KQED-HD...9.1
KNTV-HD...11.1
DISC-HD...76.4
ESPN-HD...Don't know what channel number this is, it shows up between the last Music Choice-99.20, and analog channel 2.

Evidently Discovery-HD in not encrypted here in Santa Rosa, might be a give-away for having a low bandwidth system.

Plus the KQED,KGO and KNTV sub-channels, along with all the regular stuff. I think you're right about a better picture, I'll have to do more comparison with the HD stuff but the SD digital channels definitely look better than they do with the STB.

davisdog

05-27-05, 07:09 PM

I hate frivolous lawsuits as much as anyone else, but this one really deserves a class action lawsuit -- or at least a complaint to the FCC. What a sleazy way to force people to use Comcast equipment instead of what they already paid for.

Not to justify the cost (its just milking ever $ they can)...but I think the charge is not for lease of the equipment but its a per outlet charge to receive the programming...You get to watch Comcast on 1 TV with your standard Fee and if you want to use additional TV's then you pay an additional $6.95 per TV...Analog Technology doesnt let them keep track, but with digital they can.

Tivo does (or did) the same thing I think...Even if you owned the Hardware you still had to pay an individual programming fee for every Tivo you have?

and isnt it the same with Satellite providers...you also have a per outlet fee even if you own the hardware?

keenan

05-27-05, 08:16 PM

Not to justify the cost (its just milking ever $ they can)...but I think the charge is not for lease of the equipment but its a per outlet charge to receive the programming...You get to watch Comcast on 1 TV with your standard Fee and if you want to use additional TV's then you pay an additional $6.95 per TV...Analog Technology doesnt let them keep track, but with digital they can.

Tivo does (or did) the same thing I think...Even if you owned the Hardware you still had to pay an individual programming fee for every Tivo you have?

and isnt it the same with Satellite providers...you also have a per outlet fee even if you own the hardware?

That's sort of the way it was explained to me, it's a charge for an additional digital hookup. If you had no STB and just a CableCARD then it would be a $5 HD equipment fee only.

And you're right about charging for outlets, I remember in the old days cablecos would charge for every hookup, this was in the analog days. Obviously they could not keep track of how many hookups were being used so the practice died out, but with digital they can because of the encryption used on the digital channels. Basic subs can still hoohup as many as they want.

And yes, satellite(DirecTV) charges $5 per additional receiver.

mechou

05-27-05, 08:52 PM

Yeah, this is really what puzzles me. Basically the cableCARD is an "inter-operable" signal anti-theft device. This should be regarded as "cost of doing business" to the cable co. Why does every legitimate subscriber have to bear this additional cost?

If you get an "integrated" STB from the cable co, are you still paying this cost? I realize that the FCC recently granted a deferral on the ban of integrated STBs, but when 3rd party STBs become prevalent, even if we lease a STB from the cable co, we are still obligated to pay this additional cost of CableCARD?

<snip>

That's really besides the point, since the whole purpose of the CableCard slot is so the cable company could retain control over their programming while the consumer could be allowed to purchase their own equipment instead of leasing.

This isn't the first time this stuff has come up. The reason your cable-ready VCR can record simply by plugging into the cable outlet is because it comes with cable-ready tuner. The cable companies were urged to allow consumers to purchase their own equipment and to itemize everything you pay for on your bill in return for less strict regulation.

tranle

05-27-05, 09:12 PM

...
The error rates on those 2 channels are too high so your TV will not tune them.

Those 2 channels in particular (which is expected since they are on the same underlying RF frequency, 79/555Mhz) are the ones where I see the highest error rates, 600-3000.

...

I did try something last night: I put a 2 way splitter in path that pulls down the level by around 3dB and it seems that the cable box (6200) seems to handle better the correctable errors.

Maybe Comcast has been boosting too much the signal level and our cable box cannot handle it. I will buy tomorrow a real 6dB RF attenuator and see if it helps more.

sfhub

05-27-05, 10:15 PM

I did try something last night: I put a 2 way splitter in path that pulls down the level by around 3dB and it seems that the cable box (6200) seems to handle better the correctable errors.

Maybe Comcast has been boosting too much the signal level and our cable box cannot handle it. I will buy tomorrow a real 6dB RF attenuator and see if it helps more.
Apparently everybody north of Central Expressway is seeing the same problem. It has been reported many times (to Comcast)

As I mentioned in an earlier post, when I attenuate the signal 10db the error rates go down to about 150-300 (from 600-3000) most of which are correctable by the Motorola box. The issue for me is the error rates used to be zero and more importantly my TV with QAM tuner is not as robust as the Motorola box and it will pixelate and drop audio starting at around 30-50 errors. This basically makes my QAM tuner useless. With CableCard it is even more sensitive to errors than w/o. This goes back to my system having zero errors prior to May 12th. They made some change and things broke. I suspect either it is at the head end or the fiber system in between.

The are other issues with attenuating the signal. The analog channels start seeing poor analog signal artifacts like more noise and some lines cycling through the picture. onDemand and HSI (2-way communications) start becoming less reliable. So IMO attenuating the signal is just a temporary solution even if you are using Motorola box. They should really figure out what they changed that caused the breakage rather than puting band-aids around the problem.

sfhub

05-27-05, 10:29 PM

That's sort of the way it was explained to me, it's a charge for an additional digital hookup. If you had no STB and just a CableCARD then it would be a $5 HD equipment fee only.

And you're right about charging for outlets, I remember in the old days cablecos would charge for every hookup, this was in the analog days. Obviously they could not keep track of how many hookups were being used so the practice died out, but with digital they can because of the encryption used on the digital channels. Basic subs can still hoohup as many as they want.

And yes, satellite(DirecTV) charges $5 per additional receiver.
Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not bashing on you personally, just the information that was relayed to you from Comcast.

DirecTV gives you 4 STBs for free when you sign up for their package.

From my understanding they are charging us $6.95 "digital hookup" fee to use CableCard and $6.95 "equipment" fee w/ free "digital hookup" if you use their STB. To me that sounds like playing name games. Maybe my understanding is incorrect. This is all based on assumption we are talking about the "2nd" device as the primary device is sometimes included in the package.

kevini

05-27-05, 11:19 PM

DirecTV gives you 4 STBs for free when you sign up for their package.

For this you have to be a new customer and unless they have changed their policies you still have to pay $5 per reciever for any additional recievers.

sfhub

05-28-05, 12:16 AM

For this you have to be a new customer and unless they have changed their policies you still have to pay $5 per reciever for any additional recievers.
New DirecTV customer, that's exactly what this thread is pushing me to investigate. If Comcast wants to offer me 4 STBs/CableCards for free then charge me $6.95 for each additional, I'll call it even, otherwise it makes no sense for anyone to point out DirecTV charges $5 per outlet too. I suspect it is very easy to get DirecTV to waive the multiple outlet fee, up to 4, even if you are existing customer. I suspect the "coupon" code for existing DirecTV customers to get 4 outlets free is spelled "C O M C A S T"

I'm not trying to turn this into a DirecTV vs Comcast discussion.

My main point is that Comcast has basically made CableCard and customer owned equipment a useless concept and technology due to their billing practices.

You realize of course there is a *mandate* by FCC that cable industry support CableCard to foster competition in the DVR market and to allow consumers to buy their own equipment vs being forced to lease equipment from a monopoly service provider.

How can any DVR penetrate the cable market when Comcast just artificially adds charges to using your own equipment that essentially make it financially unviable? We will be stuck with buggy Motorola 6412 for the foreseeable future because TiVo, Sony, Panasonic, etc. cannot put together digital video recorders that work with cable systems and make them financially viable to the consumer.

Have you ever wished Comcast would come out with DVR that included Faroudja scaler for 480i sources? You'll never see that from Comcast, because it just doesn't make financial sense for them. PPV, onDemand, these all make sense for Comcast, regardless of whether it makes sense to you as a consumer, because it brings them more revenue. Better 480i picture quality doesn't bring them more revenue so they'll never do it. Panasonic, on the other hand might put it in one of their devices because they are competing against other products and need to differentiate themselves.

Think about it, how many of you "lease" your analog VCR for $6.95 a month from Comcast? Isn't that a foreigh concept? However we seem to have no problems accepting that situation when it comes to "digital" channels. How many of you would balk if you were forced to pay $6.95/month to use the VCR/PVR you just purchased (in addition to any monthly fees your VCR/PVR charges)?

If anyone is interested in the CableCard issue here are some articles. Personally I have issue (and I think others have issue too) with the implication of some comments (in this thread) that Comcast is completely entitled to charge a user $6.95 for a CableCard (because it is labelled as "digital outlet fee"), given the purpose CableCards were created for and the reasoning why they were *imposed* on the cable industry. I have no major issue if Comcast wants to charge me $6.95 per box, because in that case, I'm really leasing some equipment from them. I'd also have no problem if Comcast just charged me $20-$30 as a one time fee to cover their cost for CableCard (assuming I get to keep the card)

Really, if a $300 set top box costs me $6.95/month to lease, why shouldn't a $30 CableCard cost my $0.695/month to lease? In fact it should even cost less because CableCards being simple PCMCIA cards are much less likely to break and require far less maintenance than a cable box that has complicated electronics.

Wouldn't you one day like to see DVRs as cheap as VCRs are today? $75 for a 2 tuner DVR, buy a used CableCard off eBay for $10, plug the thing in, go to a website and type in your account # + cablecard ID info, and start recording CSI and Desperate Housewives in HD? We will never see that if the only recording device that you can use with digital cable is provided by Comcast and there is no competition from the big names in Consumer Electronics.

http://ga1.org/ctrw/notice-description.tcl?newsletter_id=1358109
http://thomashawk.com/2005/01/tivos-letter-to-fcc-and-will-microsoft.html
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsformats/CableCARDprimer.php

This quote from TiVo regarding CableCard makes it very clear the difficulties they are running into. Unlike most public statements that have a lot of marketing spin, I think this is a very fair statement TiVo is making given the current state of CableCard.
"In a good faith show of support for CableCARD, at last week’s Consumer Electronics Show, TiVo announced its intention to build such a device, but TiVo has little confidence that such a product would be supported adequately by cable operators or find acceptance among cable subscribers. It would be an expensive and unwieldy device with increased hardware costs, increased customer costs resulting from the need to lease two CableCARDs, and a host of complexities resulting from the fact that dual tuner functionality was not designed to be provided by two CableCARDs."

davisdog

05-28-05, 12:44 AM

For this you have to be a new customer and unless they have changed their policies you still have to pay $5 per reciever for any additional recievers.

Correct...

The Directv "4 Rooms for Free offer" is only that they give you the hardware (basic stb) for 4 rooms at no cost (well they do charge $20 for shipping)...

from their website

"Add $4.99/mo. for separate programming on second and each additional TV"

So compare that to the cablecard that you get for free and comcast charges $6.95/mth as a programming fee on the second and each additional TV

so how about we call end to the debate...switch to D* if you want to save $1.94/mth on the fee (but use a stb vice cablecard) :D

sfhub

05-28-05, 12:50 AM

so how about we call end to the debate...switch to D* if you want to save $1.94/mth on the fee (but use a stb vice cablecard) :D
My point is not the fee difference between D* and Comcast.

My point is Comcast is doing an end-around to the purpose of CableCard and it is hurting the consumer both in terms of the price you pay, the diversity of products you are offered, and the quality of the picture you watch.

This is a philosophical debate, not a $1.96/month debate.

I just want to be able to buy my dual-tuner CableCard TiVo for $300-$600 (with lifetime), plug it into my digital cable system, and have it work, basically just like I do with existing TiVo.

I don't want to pay additional $13.90 ($6.95 * 2) for 2 CableCards on top of what I paid for the TiVo. I think that $13.90 is way out of whack with reality considering all the expensive technology is already in my TiVo and paid for.

I have 6 tuners recording right now (6 ReplayTVs) and 3 display devices. If I want to have the same setup with digital cable, I will need to pay $55.60/month ((9-1free) * $6.95) *just for the CableCards* to get this setup working with Comcast, that's not even counting the fee for Programming which will probably run around $50-$60. This is on top of all the money I already paid for this new fangled CableCard PVR hardware with big harddrives, mpg decoders, QAM tuners, networking, etc.

Further I'm very disappointed I will likely never see a dual-tuner CableCard TiVo because of the way Comcast is handling CableCard. TiVo is finding it unviable to create a CableCard product due to those billing practices, so I'm stuck with Motorola 6412.

I'd like to reiterate, if you still feel this debate is about $1.96/month the point is being missed.

nightowl

05-28-05, 01:33 AM

Further I'm very disappointed I will likely never see a dual-tuner CableCard TiVo because of the way Comcast is handling CableCard. TiVo is finding it unviable to create a CableCard product due to those billing practices, so I'm stuck with Motorola 6412.

I'd like to reiterate, if you still feel this debate is about $1.96/month the point is being missed.

The point of your argument is valid and well taken - if the numbers you quote are correct for Comcast, they are actually making more money off of the little card than off a full STB per month. The idea of the cableCARD was to make digital cable as "easy" as analog cable for most customers.

As to the Tivo comment, look for a Comcast HDTivo either very late this year or most likely first half of next year, which should use the 6412 hardware with Tivo software.

sfhub

05-28-05, 02:02 AM

As to the Tivo comment, look for a Comcast HDTivo either very late this year or most likely first half of next year, which should use the 6412 hardware with Tivo software.
That is a little bit of positive news in that maybe we will finally see a more advanced PVR. The negative side I presume is TiVo gave up on the dual-tuner CableCard PVR because they just couldn't make it financially viable. That does not spell good news for any competition and choice for digital cable devices. The unfortunately side effect is Comcast HDTivo will be limited by the hardware that is in 6412. ie hard drive sizes, networking features, tuner quality, etc. This is something CableCard was supposed to solve.

The problem of lease vs buy is still there though. If I have 120hrs of recordings on the Comcast HDTiVo and I move to Time Warner country, what happens to my recordings.

What if I want to buy the TiVo box so that I will have some residual value I can recover on eBay to purchase newer technology? If I'm forced to lease, there is zero residual value.

These are more issues CableCard was intended to solve.

keenan

05-28-05, 02:37 AM

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not bashing on you personally, just the information that was relayed to you from Comcast.

DirecTV gives you 4 STBs for free when you sign up for their package.

From my understanding they are charging us $6.95 "digital hookup" fee to use CableCard and $6.95 "equipment" fee w/ free "digital hookup" if you use their STB. To me that sounds like playing name games. Maybe my understanding is incorrect. This is all based on assumption we are talking about the "2nd" device as the primary device is sometimes included in the package.

The way it's written in their handout is as follows,

Digital Programming Access Fee (Each Additional Outlet)*--------------------$6.95

Digital Video Recorder Service Fee (Primary and Additional Outlets)--------$9.95

Digital Video Recorder Digital Access Fee (Each Additional Outlet)----------$6.95

*Required for access to digital programming for each applicable Digital and Non-Digital Premium. Fee includes one DCT and remote

But. on the other side of the handout it lists Equipment Rental fees, including a HDTV Equipment Fee(Required for each outlet) at $5.00.

So the primary connection would be a $5 fee for a HD-STB/CableCARD and the second outlet would be $6.95 which includes the HD-STB/CableCARD. A DVR would be $9.95 per every outlet. I'm not sure what the heck the Digital Video Recorder Digital Access Fee is as the only DVR that works is the one they provide. That's how I understand it anyway...

And I agree with you on the whole CableCARD issue, the cablecos will continue to put roadblocks in it's adoption for as long as they can as it doesn't suit their propective business needs and wants.

sfhub

05-28-05, 03:29 AM

The way it's written in their handout is as follows,

Digital Programming Access Fee (Each Additional Outlet)*--------------------$6.95

Digital Video Recorder Service Fee (Primary and Additional Outlets)--------$9.95

Digital Video Recorder Digital Access Fee (Each Additional Outlet)----------$6.95

*Required for access to digital programming for each applicable Digital and Non-Digital Premium. Fee includes one DCT and remote

But. on the other side of the handout it lists Equipment Rental fees, including a HDTV Equipment Fee(Required for each outlet) at $5.00.

So the primary connection would be a $5 fee for a HD-STB/CableCARD and the second outlet would be $6.95 which includes the HD-STB/CableCARD. A DVR would be $9.95 per every outlet. I'm not sure what the heck the Digital Video Recorder Digital Access Fee is as the only DVR that works is the one they provide. That's how I understand it anyway...
As usual with Comcast pricing I'm confused. I don't know if it is them or me.

The way I read their language:
"Service Fee" is Comcast lingo for "every outlet (including primary) fee"
"Access Fee" is Comcast lingo for "every additional outlet (not including primary) fee"

"Service" and "Access" have no relation to the traditional English interpretations. They could have just as easily called them STB1234 fee and STB234 fee.

So my 1st and 2nd DVR would cost me what?

DVR Service Fee $9.95
DVR Access Fee $6.95
HDTV Equipment Fee $5.00

I *think* primary DVR $9.95 = $0.00 + $9.95
I *think* secondary DVR $16.90 = $6.95 + $9.95

Although based on the wording they could easily tack on additional $5 to either primary or secondary DVR for the HDTV equipment fee, which is per outlet.

and for primary HD-STB and secondary HD-STB
Digital Programming Access Fee $6.95
HDTV Equipment Fee $5.00

I *think* primary HD-STB $5.00 = $0.00 + $5.00
I *think* secondary HD-STB $11.95 = $6.95 + $5.00

and for primary STB and secondary STB

I *think* primary STB $0.00 = $0.00
I *think* secondary STB $6.95 = $6.95

This is different interpretation from what you gave which was

primary HD-STB $5.00
secondary HD-STB $6.95

and the reason for the difference is to resolve the ambiguity of STB + HD-STB household. If it worked according to the interpretation you gave, you would pay different prices depending on whether you "declared" your primary STB to be STB or HD-STB.

primary STB $0.00
secondary HD-STB $6.95

primary HD-STB $5.00
secondary STB $6.95

The ambiguity doesn't make sense. Why should I have to pay $6.95 or $11.95 for the same equipment, just depending on which I declare as primary. My interpretation gets rid of the ambiguity so you always pay $11.95 (but I have no real way of knowing which interpretation is correct, I just know which one makes more sense to my simplistic mind)

primary STB $0.00
secondary HD-STB $11.95

primary HD-STB $5.00
secondary STB $6.95

Now if "HDTV Equipment Fee(Required for each outlet)" was renamed to "Arbitrary primary HDTV equipment tack on fee" then your interpretation is clearly correct, but the ambiguity is still there.

sfhub

05-28-05, 04:04 AM

And I agree with you on the whole CableCARD issue, the cablecos will continue to put roadblocks in it's adoption for as long as they can as it doesn't suit their propective business needs and wants.
Something I find appalling is the arbitrariness of the whole affair.

FCC mandates "Broadcast Flag" which helps studios and hurts consumers. All the equipment vendors scramble and work their butt off to implement "Broadcast Flag" or their equipment cannot be sold in US.

FCC mandates "CableCARD" which helps consumers and forces cable companies to level playing field. Cable companies simply thumb their nose and drag their feet, creating a fee structure that nullifies and renders useless the whole concept of CableCARD.

How about equal footing for CableCard. ie if cable companies do not implement CableCARD as it was intended, they can no longer charge for service. That's about the same as equipment w/o broadcast flag being unsellable.

I'm sure with the new "Broadcast Flag" ruling, we will again see "selective" treatment of the FCC mandates. "Broadcast Flag" will get pushed through congress so it explicitly gives FCC authority to impose "Broadcast Flag"

However there will be no similar push for "CableCARD", which opens the door for cable companies to claim, based on the "Broadcast Flag" ruling, FCC has no right to impose "CableCARD", thereby completely killing CableCARD.

I don't like "Broadcast Flag" but I'm willing to live with it if "CableCARD" gets equal footing, but it looks like if consumers do not have their own lobbying group, they will get screwed as things convert to digital.

kevini

05-28-05, 12:47 PM

sfhub

05-28-05, 02:19 PM

I think the whole $6.95 charge sucks too especially for cable card but I'm pretty sure I know why they do it.

With Analog cable you are either connected to the cable plant or not. If you don't pay you get disconnected. If you have basic they install a trap. There is theft and illegal hookups but generally it works.
I did not know Comcast had nationwide addressing. That's a good piece of info to file away.

I understand what you are saying, but I have to think this is more of a secondary concern and the primary concern for $6.95 is recovering cost of STB and increasing revenue.

The reason I say that is even if they charge me $6.95 per outlet, what's to stop me from reselling the box to my friend for $15/month. Basically what's stopping me is the same thing that would stop me if it was $0/month, I just don't feel it is right (besides it being illegal theft)

I don't know exactly how the CableCARD registration works but I was under the impression there was some registration using unique device specific info. That may or may not restrict movement of CableCARD, but you would think if this was the major concern, it could be designed into CableCARD protocol something to limit CableCARD use to the device it was installed with or at least report device specific info for after the fact audits. They can even do it procedurally and limit each household to 2 CableCARDs so one person can't just widely distribute these things.

After all it doesn't make sense for one person to continuously request CableCARDs for the same unique device ID, so at the minimum you'd think they would need some actual devices to install the CableCARD into, and that costs money. If someone requests a CableCARD for a unique device ID that is already assigned a CableCARD, I think that would be a huge red flag they may be doing what you suggest. Given that obtaining a CableCARD device so you have unique IDs to order CableCARDs is going to cost you minimum $700 to buy the device, I think it is actually more deterrant to the behavior mentioned than the same behavior with cable STBs, which cost me nothing to order (other than $6.95) and I can just hand them out to friends and share the costs.

I still think the major reason for the $6.95 charge for CableCARD is just to deter usage and bypass the intent of CableCARD. Every CableCARD deployed means lost potential PPV and onDemand revenue. Every CableCARD deployed means Comcast loses control over the user experience. TiVo could start directing you to TiVo/Netflix onDemand instead of Comcast onDemand.

walk

05-28-05, 02:32 PM

I think it's very simple actually.

- Customer with STB pays $6.95/mo, and can order PPV ($$$$)

- Customer with Cablecard *theroetically* wouldn't pay the $6.95, and can never order PPV.

They surely don't want to lose the $6.95, and even if it's for leasing a $20 card instead of $200 STB, that extra charge could easily be justified by the fact that you'll never buy a PPV movie or event.

You may not like it, but you are always free to vote with your pocketbook.

I like the *idea* of CableCard, just not the way it's being implemented. From the sounds of it, I'm not alone.

sfhub

05-28-05, 02:42 PM

You may not like it, but you are always free to vote with your pocketbook.

I like the *idea* of CableCard, just not the way it's being implemented. From the sounds of it, I'm not alone.
Actually there are no other analog cable providers in my (and most areas) because cable companies and Comcast have been granted monopoly status.

Therefore I do not have real choice if I want to maintain analog. It is not deregulated like the phone system where I can choose any LD carrier and the change is seamless.

In exchange for monopoly status, cable companies agree to some regulation.

FCC mandated CableCARD specifically to foster PVR competition and to allow consumers to buy their own equipment vs leasing.

Now if my cable lines were open to TWC, Comcast, SBC and whomever else to compete and one provider charged for CableCARD and the other did not and I could switch my service with a phone call, then I call that real choice, and certainly I can vote with my pocketbook.

The implementation of CableCARD as it was intended from FCC perspective is fine. Obviously there could be improvements and maybe if CableCARD survives, v2.0 will address them. The problem right now is there are active efforts to bypass FCC mandate and render CableCARD useless. This is not what the FCC intended. This is Comcast's end-around.

mooneydriver

05-28-05, 05:31 PM

The problem right now is there are active efforts to bypass FCC mandate and render CableCARD useless. This is not what the FCC intended. This is Comcast's end-around.
It's obvious that the cable monopolies are trying to demonstrate to the FCC that nobody wants the CableCard, and they are making sure that nobody would want the CableCard by charging ridiculous access fees. Kind of like manipulating an election by intimidating voters into staying at home.

If we do not stand up and raise our collective voice as consumers, CableCard will be a failed experiment. Perhaps it's time to write a letter to the FCC Chairman (Kevin Martin?) with as many signatures as possible. We could also cc the SF Chronicle and the Merc plus Consumer Reports.

sfhub, since you appear to have researched this topic quite a bit, perhaps you'd like to take the lead in writing the letter? I will be happy to support it. I have no idea how to collect physical signatures from a multitude of netizens, but perhaps just names and cities would suffice.

keenan

05-28-05, 06:45 PM

I

I don't know exactly how the CableCARD registration works but I was under the impression there was some registration using unique device specific info. That may or may not restrict movement of CableCARD, but you would think if this was the major concern, it could be designed into CableCARD protocol something to limit CableCARD use to the device it was installed with or at least report device specific info for after the fact audits. They can even do it procedurally and limit each household to 2 CableCARDs so one person can't just widely distribute these things.

Yes, the CableCARD is linked to a specific device through some sort of IP addressing with the device and the cable system. If I were to take this card and try and use it on another CableCARD equipped set , it will not work, until the cable head end re-addresses or "talks" to the new device and this requires some human interaction. The CabelCARD is basically just a digital cable anti-theft device.

Mine's going back since I can get everything except the movie channels without it and I'll save the 6.95. If it was 2 way and would allow the use of a third party DVR then it would be worth the 6.95, but in it's current configuration it's a rip-off.

You would think the cableco would be happy with just eliminating the possibility of digital cable theft, but no, Comcast is going to charge you for the "privilege" of not being able to steal from them. :rolleyes:

BTW, I had started a thread about CableCARD about a month ago and I just added the links you posted earlier to it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5687142#post5687142
CableCARD, DOA? - AVS Forum

kevini

05-28-05, 07:23 PM

Yes, the CableCARD is linked to a specific device through some sort of IP addressing with the device and the cable system. If I were to take this card and try and use it on another CableCARD equipped set , it will not work, until the cable head end re-addresses or "talks" to the new device and this requires some human interaction. The CabelCARD is basically just a digital cable anti-theft device.

Good to know that it is linked to the device. I have not had any personal experience with one yet.

Of course if the cable card is in the STB then the whole STB can be "moved".

keenan

05-28-05, 08:40 PM

Good to know that it is linked to the device. I have not had any personal experience with one yet.

Of course if the cable card is in the STB then the whole STB can be "moved".
Yes, and that is probably yet another reason why the cablecos are less than thrilled about the whole CableCARD equipped DVR issue.

sfhub

05-28-05, 09:35 PM

Of course if the cable card is in the STB then the whole STB can be "moved".
Yes, and that is probably yet another reason why the cablecos are less than thrilled about the whole CableCARD equipped DVR issue.
I don't see how that is any different than Motorola 6412, which can just as easily be moved as 3rd-party CableCARD equipped DVR.

A Motorola 6412 is essentially a DVR provided by Comcast which has integrated dual-tuner CableCARD. All the theft issues you can come up with for 3rd party DVRs will be the same for 6412.

My understanding of CableCARD mandate is not only do the cable companies need to provide CableCARD support, their *own equipment* must use the same CableCARD technology thus giving incentive for the cable companies to develop CableCARD functionality to the point 3rd party can have the same fully functional cable devices (ie onDemand, guide service, ppv, etc.)

If the mandated date was actually met, the Motorola 6412 would need to be implemented as a CableCARD device with external CableCARD, not integrated decryption. Thus any CableCARD issues are the same whether you are talking about Comcast provide STB/PVR or 3rd party PVR. I'd basically call issues of STBs being transferred to another location a wash and not relevant when discussing pros and cons of CableCARD.

It is relevant when discussing theft of cable services, but that is a different discussion and applies to both CableCARD STB/PVRs and integrated decryption STB/PVRs, equally.

kevini

05-29-05, 12:49 AM

I don't see how that is any different than Motorola 6412, which can just as easily be moved as 3rd-party CableCARD equipped DVR.

A Motorola 6412 is essentially a DVR provided by Comcast which has integrated dual-tuner CableCARD. All the theft issues you can come up with for 3rd party DVRs will be the same for 6412.

Well the Motorola 6412 is a two way device so if it reports back from the wrong headend they could tell it is moved, simlar to the satellite companies recommending the phone line hookup to tell if the box has moved.

Of course with cablecard 2.0 Bi-dir is possible so it will avert this concern at least.

I know Comcast and Motorola definitely don't want Cablecard to become popular for may reasons and one is definitely theft. Think of all the smartcard hell the DBS providers have gone through. Now with a common encryption system like cablecard the hacking chance goes up.....

I wish there was a good way to provide an open secure system since theft make it worse for us paying customers but so far there has not been one. The closed nature of the cable system one of the factors that has kept the hackers until now.

Kevin

fender4645

05-29-05, 03:19 AM

Of course with cablecard 2.0 Bi-dir is possible so it will avert this concern at least.

Is this a fact now? I remember hearing a few months ago "at some point" cable cards would be able to handle 2-way communication but I got the feeling it wouldn't be any time soon.

sfhub

05-29-05, 04:17 AM

Well the Motorola 6412 is a two way device so if it reports back from the wrong headend they could tell it is moved, simlar to the satellite companies recommending the phone line hookup to tell if the box has moved.

There's no reason why CableCARD 1.0 protocol cannot tie unique ID of device and head-end identification information. From what we have been discussing, it already does the former. In this way, a one-way system can be tied to a headend, same as a 2-way system that is being suggested. I have no idea if it does tie in headend info.

Even if it didn't do that, a headend serves a large area, so theft of 2-way device is just as possible.

I do agree that theft is a concern, but it is complete separate topic that applies regardless of whether CableCARD is in the picture.

Hacking is a whole separate issue. If someone can clone a CableCARD which has been authorized already, I don't see how $6.95/month is going to have any effect on whether someone is going to do that. If the sophistication is there to clone CableCARD I'd have to believe people could similarly reprogram your cable box to mimic an already authorized cable box.

sfhub

05-29-05, 04:27 AM

Is this a fact now? I remember hearing a few months ago "at some point" cable cards would be able to handle 2-way communication but I got the feeling it wouldn't be any time soon.
There is a feeling we may never see CableCARD 2.0 because of the way CableCARD 1.0 is being handled by the cable companies. Regulatory agencies are being given the impression there is little demand for CableCARDs. Consumers don't know what they are losing out on because the battles are going on behind the scenes and the innovative products that could potentially use CableCARD are not out, and may never come out because they cannot be made financially viable for the consumer.

rshaw

05-31-05, 02:02 AM

I can't believe that the Indy 500 wasn't in high definition. ABC has the equipment, why didn't they use it? The bigest race of the year and we have to watch it in SD. Fox does a good job with NASCAR in high def, so it can be done.

wco81

05-31-05, 09:29 AM

Which gets better ratings, NBA playoffs or Indy?

They showed the playoffs in prime time so it's probably the latter?

Barovelli

05-31-05, 10:30 AM

Is this a fact now? I remember hearing a few months ago "at some point" cable cards would be able to handle 2-way communication but I got the feeling it wouldn't be any time soon.

What's needed now is the hardware. I don't know who is stalling - the TV manufacturers that want to keep the price down or the cable keymasters that are paranoid of crackers defeating the system.

Then we need a cable card for dual tuner hardware (yes, in the works), and ultimately no hardware at all - a code download.

sfhub

05-31-05, 11:38 AM

What's needed now is the hardware. I don't know who is stalling - the TV manufacturers that want to keep the price down
This makes no sense. There is no requirement TV manufacturers include CableCARD (only ATSC tuners) at all so the super simple way to keep the price down is just not include CableCARD. TV manufacturers are lobbying *for* CableCARD to get equal footing because they want to build plug/play TVs and crack the PVR market for digital cable.

edmc

05-31-05, 02:42 PM

So, my question is, anybody know the plans for Sci-Fi in HD in the Bay Area?

keenan

05-31-05, 03:03 PM

SciFi channel is not in HD as far as I know. For BG, I just waited until it came to UniversalHD.

sfhub

05-31-05, 04:17 PM

SciFi isn't even one of the better SD channels. I think the next HD channel for Bay Area will be TNT-HD since other Comcast areas already have it.

thatdude90210

05-31-05, 06:54 PM

So TNT HD is likely next, as we've been hearing. Anybody hear anything about UPN-hd or WB-hd? There probably won't be much HD stuff on UPN once Enterprise ends, but WB has lots of HD programming.

keenan

05-31-05, 08:23 PM

Won't be much on TNT-HD after the NBA semis either... :D

Since they didn't get it on before the NBA playoffs, I would just as soon see them add something else, like Uni-HD or HDNet.

heyjjjaded

06-01-05, 01:16 PM

Hi - I'm new here & I searched through 40+ pages of this impressive 200+ page thread, but I still have a question that's been bugging me for almost 2 months now. I have Comcast HD in Solano County and get Giants & A's high-definition games on channel 720. When the games come through, the picture is beautiful. The problem though is that many times, channel 720 does not "switch away" from INHD2 programming when a game is supposed to be on FSN HD. I have the FSN HD schedule from the FSN Bay Area website. According to that schedule, channel 720 missed the 1st 2 games this season all together. Since then and after several calls to Comcast, we did start getting the HD games on channel 720. However, once or twice per week still, channel 720 fails to "switch away" from INHD2 and will miss the start (or the end) of a Giants or A's game.

When there is a problem, it is usually at the start of a game (not switching over from INHD2 in time). I always call Comcast ... sometimes they are able to help immediately & sometimes it takes 3 or 4 innings before the HD broadcast comes through. One thing I have never received is a straight answer as to why we so frequently have this problem. Occasionally, the problem is at the end of the games. We have watched a couple of HD games on channel 720 that have run past the 3-hour mark and have been cut away from. For example, a broadcast that started at 7:00 and ran long will cut away from FSN HD and back to INHD2 at 10:00. This has happened a couple of times, but is rare.

I know that this problem does not exist everywhere, because my friend in Richmond does not have these same issues with channel 720. But I would really like to know why this problem exists in Solano County? Is it Comcast's fault or FSN's fault? Who should I be calling when there is a problem (I am so tired of trying to explain this on the phone to Comcast support)? Most importantly, what can be done to correct the problem? Thanks very much!

Brian Conrad

06-01-05, 02:44 PM

I would rather see UniversalHD too. BattleStar Gallactica is available there:
http://www.universalhd.com/Series/

garypen

06-01-05, 04:41 PM

The Voom Originals would be nice, after they add Universal HD.

sfhub

06-01-05, 04:44 PM

Apparently everybody north of Central Expressway is seeing the same problem. It has been reported many times (to Comcast)

As I mentioned in an earlier post, when I attenuate the signal 10db the error rates go down to about 150-300 (from 600-3000) most of which are correctable by the Motorola box. The issue for me is the error rates used to be zero and more importantly my TV with QAM tuner is not as robust as the Motorola box and it will pixelate and drop audio starting at around 30-50 errors. This basically makes my QAM tuner useless. With CableCard it is even more sensitive to errors than w/o. This goes back to my system having zero errors prior to May 12th. They made some change and things broke. I suspect either it is at the head end or the fiber system in between.

The are other issues with attenuating the signal. The analog channels start seeing poor analog signal artifacts like more noise and some lines cycling through the picture. onDemand and HSI (2-way communications) start becoming less reliable. So IMO attenuating the signal is just a temporary solution even if you are using Motorola box. They should really figure out what they changed that caused the breakage rather than puting band-aids around the problem.I've heard they tracked down this problem to the headend and they are working on getting it repaired.

ricknish

06-02-05, 11:36 AM

Hi,

Looking for some help. I am on my second 6412 box from Comcast and continue to have problems with the DVI out connection from 6412 to my HDMI input on Tosh DLP. Using a Monster DVI-HDMI cable. HDMI inputs on TV was checked out by TV service tech and both ok. Cable checks out ok as well.

I can only get the connection to work intermittently and to do so I need to keep switching the TV inputs back and forth to something other than my HDMI input and then back again to HDMI. I have read in the Tosh manual about the HDMI reset sequence, but when I follow that it does not work as well. Once the connection is on, it works fine.

Info from Comcast say not supported. Just checking to see if anyone had similar issues. Having a service call tomorrow afternoon, but was looking to get as much info prior to their visit.

Thanks

sfhub

06-02-05, 12:26 PM

HDMI connections do some negotiation when they are first connected. I think it is a combo of HDCP negotiation and connection settings. There is likely something a little off and negotiation is not taking place all the time since you say it works when you switch to a different input and back. That forces a renegotiation.

You might just want program into your remote to switch to different input and back when selecting the 6412, as a workaround.

The DVI on my DCT-5100 works fine with the DVI connection on my Sharp LCD, but that is pretty far off from the equipment you are using.

rshaw

06-02-05, 02:18 PM

I've noticed something interesting: when I turn on my DVD player (Sammy 941 using HDMI) and then switch my TV to the HDMI input, it often doesn't connect. I have to turn the DVD player off, then back on and I get the signal.

This probably explains it: if the DVD player was already on, the TV missed the negotiation process and didn't sense the signal properly, hence having to turn off/on the DVD player.

walk

06-02-05, 08:02 PM

Re: FSN games in HD, that sounds terrible. No problems here other than that they seemed to cancel some games that were listed earlier in the year. Make sure you check the latest schedule on their web site.

http://www.fsnbayarea.com/giants/skeds/giantshdsked.php
(that's the Giants sched. Click on the A's logo to see theirs.)

keenan

06-02-05, 11:50 PM

keenan

06-03-05, 12:07 AM

Also from Cable Digital News

http://www.cabledigitalnews.com/
Cable Digital News

Comcast Signs New Set-Top Pact with Pace

Comcast will buy more digital cable set-top boxes from Pace Micro Technology, under a deal that the two companies struck late last month. The three-year pact, valued at $375 million to $550 million based on the type of boxes that Comcast orders, supersedes an earlier agreement between the two firms.

Notably, the agreement covers Pace's new Tahoe HD DVR set-tops. Comcast also gains the right to sublicense Pace's EngineWare software and specified set-top designs for the North American cable market. Finally, Comcast and Pace will jointly fund the latter's development of next-generation set-tops and related technologies.
http://www.pacemicro.com/americas/products/prodinfo.asp?PID=TDC775HDDVR

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/keenanj/TDC775_Tahoe.gif

Barovelli

06-03-05, 12:32 AM

Buzzword to remember.

Will bring an end to the proprietary set top box.

Like the way DOCSIS modems are procured - the set top box market opens and is no longer held by one vendor.

Another Buzz word is M Card - the dual tuner cable card that may make it to market before the downloaded CA (scroll down and see my mention of that, it was no joke)

sfhub

06-03-05, 05:04 AM

RE: CableCARD.

From this thread on CableCARD, the following are from the full article.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5707338#post5707338
CableCARD, DOA? - AVS Forum

Two-way CableCARD solutions are in the works. But cable operators would prefer to dump the whole technology, which was developed some seven years ago, in favor of more elegant downloadable CA solutions.

"No matter your constituency... downloadable security is better than the solution we've had in the past," said Mark Coblitz, senior vice president of strategic planning for Comcast Corp. "There isn't anybody who looks at it who wouldn't say it's a better solution."

Specifically, Coblitz, Hayashi and other experts contended that a software-based system would be far simpler and cheaper for cable operators to install and manage because it would require no inventory or customer involvement in set-up. Even though computer hackers have not yet cracked the industry's security systems, MSO executives say a downloadable system would be more secure than even a card-based system because there would be no physical device to compromise.

"If the system's hacked, it's now renewable," Coblitz said. "We don't have to mail you a new smart card."

Cable operators are particularly eager to avoid the expense of CableCARD solutions. MSOs complain that the cards, which cost an estimated $75 apiece right now, are pricier than the entire projected cost of the stripped-down all-digital set-tops that they hope to deploy in the future.
Yes, yes, more delays. It is clear from the article the main thing MSOs care about is driving down the prices they need to pay Motorola and SA for the STBs so they can have better bottom line, reducing the cost they pay for equipment, while maintaining the $7/box they charge you to lease. Secondary motivation being they may need to suck it up and give you free STBs in the future because you will be very upset when they convert to all digital and drop the analog equivalents, crippling many of your old TVs and VCRs.

From a 3rd party manufacturer's perspective like TiVo or Sony (putting aside for the moment TiVo already gave up and is developing on 6412 h/w platform w/ Comcast's blessing) it seems the situation is worse than with CableCARD. At least they could design for CableCARD spec and then the device would work with all MSOs. Now it seems each MSO licenses some downloadable CA technology and the equipment vendor must take additional step to license from the MSO some technology to work with their system. MSO of course having a conflict of interest in promoting their own equipment, which allows them to have control over your visual experience and funnel you to purchase more onDemand from them, vs some other party controlling your experience (basically the same as the battle of what shows up on Windows desktop and who gets to control that)

The only announcement that have made is a license to Pace technology and contract for Comcast to purchase boxes from them, putting pressure on Motorola and SA. No mention of simultaneous licensing to Panasonic, Sharp, Sony, Pioneer, etc., not even a token 3rd party consumer oriented electronic company just for show. I doubt you will be seeing Pace technology boxes at CC for $49 = $99 - $25 instant rebate - $25 mail-in rebate, rather you will be paying $6.95 per box as you've always done.

BTW I feel their quoted "estimated" price of $75 for CableCARD is a little disingenuous, especially when they compare to their "estimated" deployment cost for stripped down all-digital STB.

First, I think they can't stand CableCARD for a variety of reasons, so they will quote the highest price they can get away with w/o someone calling BS because they want CableCARD to look as bad as possible.

Second, of course the price of CableCARD will be higher when they are talking about such low volumes with a total of only 40,000 CableCARDs deployed among all MSOs. At $75 a pop, we are talking about $3m, spread among all the MSOs.

Now if the "cost" of CableCARD is so much, why don't they just offer to sell me the card and drop the $6.95/month charge? The answer is the $75 figure is just a red herring to disguise the plethora of business reasons they don't want CableCARD.

Now, when comparing with the stripped down digital STB, they are talking 10's of millions of units. Of course the stripped down digital STB contract is going to garner extreme competitive bids from vendors for such high volume, unlike CableCARD contracts where it is hardly worth the effort to produce at such low volumes (which could be higher volumes if MSOs really wanted to promote CableCARDs rather than handicap at every opportunity) Look at the announced contract with Pace. Comcast alone is looking to buy $375-$550 *million* dollars of equipment and that is not even considering any of the other MSOs.

I'm certainly not claiming CableCARD is wonderful technology with no faults. However it has one huge advantage, it is available right now and can be used right away. Basically it is your only option if you want to unchain yourself from the STB, otherwise you will need to wait an indeterminate # of years.

The article mentioned CableCARD is 7-year old technology. Yeah, right ... and they have only become available in Consumer Electronics equipment this past year, 6 years after the technology was first introduced. Given past experience, then, we can expect OCAP and downloadable CA to start showing up in PVRs and TVs in 2012 and there is a strong possibility the downloadable CA equipment will only work with specific MSOs as each MSO controls licenses for the downloadable CA that works with their infrastructure, at least that is what the article says.

I'm probably exaggerating a little with the 2012 date, but I fully expect it to be 2+ years *after MSO deploys their own downloadable CA*, before any CE equipment from 3rd party comes out that will use this technology. Big *if* Comcast comes out with some Pace technology STB using downloadable CA in 2007, don't expect 3rd party TVs and PVRs until 2009.

gtree10

06-03-05, 10:23 PM

Is the A's game on in HD right now? It's not in the Sacramento area.

thatdude90210

06-03-05, 10:46 PM

Is the A's game on in HD right now? It's not in the Sacramento area.
Yes, in SF.

IndigoBlu

06-03-05, 10:47 PM

Yes, on FSN INHD2.

gtree10

06-03-05, 11:09 PM

Thanks, just wanted to make sure. Whenever we have problems in the Sac area, Comcast's first response is that FSN isn't providing the feed, to neither Sac or the Bay Area. I just want to be able to tell them that the game is currently being shown in the Bay Area with no problems.

The game came on for us at 7:30.

walk

06-04-05, 04:04 PM

Giants game is on Fox-HD (702) right now and I gotta say, this is hands-down the WORST looking Hi-Def I've ever seen. I swear some of the cameras look like low-def upconverted.

Worse than the olympics! 8^0

mooneydriver

06-04-05, 04:49 PM

Ah ... yeah. It's in "Fox High Resolution" ;) (that's what they used to call their 480p feed before they started broadcasting HD)

heyjjjaded

06-04-05, 08:40 PM

Giants game is on Fox-HD (702) right now and I gotta say, this is hands-down the WORST looking Hi-Def I've ever seen.

I don't remember where, but I read somewhere that the regional Fox Saturday "Game of the Week" broadcasts will be in widescreen, but not in high definition. I believe the article stated that Fox would begin to show baseball in HD later in the season ... at least by the play-offs.

pedroluis26

06-08-05, 01:05 AM

chitchatjf

06-08-05, 01:12 AM

Somebody please help! I am new to HD. I live in North Oakland and would like to know whether Comcast is sending the local HD channels on the clear over my regular cable. My neighbor has the Comcast box, but I have the Samsung TXP-2675WH with the built-in tuner. I get some channels OTA, but nothing with cable. Please, email me or post something here. I will be eternally thankful.
-Pedro

Comcast uses QAM for digital. what you probobly have is an ATSC tuner.

By law they are required to send local HD channels in the clear (and I believe include them as part of limited basic.

NO QAM tuner,you still need their box.

davisdog

06-08-05, 01:14 AM

yep...that samsung has a ATSC Tuner...(and maybe a QAM tuner but the documentation isnt clear)

it may not be compatible with the Comcast Digital/HD channels...Your TV would need a built in QAM compatible tuner to support it

pedroluis26

06-08-05, 01:15 AM

Those Samsung people!!! Thank you for your reply chitchatf! I appreciate it.
When I run the auto-tune up on my TV, it asks me whether my cable provider uses QAM, I say yes and it starts scanning. Maybe I need update or replacement of QAM tuner? I don't want to pay extra for something that's being sent in the clear. ARGH! Samsung!!

pedroluis26

06-08-05, 01:18 AM

davisdog

06-08-05, 01:31 AM

Hello, davis dog!
Hey, I did my research on the TV and it advertised it had "NTSC/ATSC/QAM built-in tuners." So, that's why I was wondering. This is really frustrating. Thank you all, though! This does not look like the thread to talk about TVs though and tuners, so, I'll leave you. Thanks, though!

btw, I just doublechecked and it does mention QAM in some older documentation but then I read something about it needed a firmware upgrade (and somebody was getting the run around from Samsung support). Good luck..Comcast definetly does send Fox, NBC, ABC, PBS and CBS HD feeds in the clear with QAM256 if you can get your tuner to work

TPeterson

06-08-05, 01:32 AM

Pedro, if your TV has a QAM tuner, which it seems to have, you may still need to have the cable signal level adjusted to receive DTV. One clue would be if your analog cable reception isn't very clear.

keenan

06-08-05, 01:33 AM

Comcast definetly does send Fox, NBC, ABC, PBS and CBS HD feeds in the clear with QAM256 if you can get your tuner to work
Plus, ESPN-HD and Discovery-HD, up here in Santa Rosa.

pedroluis26

06-08-05, 01:45 AM

btw, I just doublechecked and it does mention QAM in some older documentation but then I read something about it needed a firmware upgrade (and somebody was getting the run around from Samsung support). Good luck..Comcast definetly does send Fox, NBC, ABC, PBS and CBS HD feeds in the clear with QAM256 if you can get your tuner to work

Thank you, davisdog. I knew I was not dreaming about it! Oh, I am calling Samsung tomorrow and telling them about it. My analog signals come as clear as they get; in fact, some have a DVD-quality kind of picture.
So, if I have the tuner, I just need a firmware and not necessarily a brand-new QAM tuner, right? I can't believe you can even get DiscHD and ESPN-HD for FREE!!! I am really happy with the KQED-multiplex, but my reception does suck OTA so that's why I am ranting about my TV not being able to work as it should. :mad: :D

keenan

06-08-05, 01:51 AM

I can't believe you can even get DiscHD and ESPN-HD for FREE!!!
Hold your horses, that's in Santa Rosa, I have no idea if they are in the clear where you're located. :)

pedroluis26

06-08-05, 01:55 AM

North Oakland, 94609. Oakland-Berkeley border.

keenan

06-08-05, 02:03 AM

North Oakland, 94609. Oakland-Berkeley border.
You'll need someone in your area to chime in as to what is available there.

heyjjjaded

06-08-05, 11:10 AM

Did anyone watch the Giants & Royals last night (Tuesday) on FSN HD? I got quite a few "audio drops" & "pixel freezes" out here. Anyone else?

millerwill

06-08-05, 11:28 AM

Too painful to watch the Giants!

plumeria

06-08-05, 02:22 PM

keenan

06-08-05, 03:18 PM

I wish I had just any baseball in HD...

sfhub

06-08-05, 03:23 PM

heyjjjaded

06-08-05, 05:17 PM

I was really looking forward to watching the U2 Rattle and Hum concert in HD and surround sound on INHD2

That concert is being shown on INHD2 a lot this month. Keep checking ... you'll see it.

plumeria

06-08-05, 05:36 PM

That concert is being shown on INHD2 a lot this month. Keep checking ... you'll see it.

Thanks! I just checked with titantv. I have got to find a time when I am at home (not during the day except the weekend), and it is not the middle of the night and a Giants game is not on.

Is there a Giants game next Thursday 16th? The concert is showing again at 10pm which would be fine. Showng again at the rather later time of 11pm on the 21st.. Hopefully if there is a game it would be over by then ;'-)

Peter

keenan

06-08-05, 06:03 PM

Finally after 3 weeks they fixed this problem.
Congratulations, now you can wait for the next anomaly to show up... :D

gtree10

06-08-05, 06:45 PM

Thanks! I just checked with titantv. I have got to find a time when I am at home (not during the day except the weekend), and it is not the middle of the night and a Giants game is not on.

Is there a Giants game next Thursday 16th? The concert is showing again at 10pm which would be fine. Showng again at the rather later time of 11pm on the 21st.. Hopefully if there is a game it would be over by then ;'-)

Peter
Here are the schedules for both the Giants and the A's:

http://www.fsnbayarea.com/hd/

No games are the the 16th.

davisdog

06-08-05, 07:00 PM

Congratulations, now you can wait for the next anomaly to show up... :D

one benefit of being on a 550Mhz system...less channels for them to screw up

:D

keenan

06-08-05, 07:04 PM

Yes, quite true... :p

BTW, has anyone paid any attention to what if any channels have been converted to 256QAM in their areas? I haven't even checked myself, but I was curious how that was going...

walk

06-08-05, 07:52 PM

I was really looking forward to watching the U2 Rattle and Hum concert in HD and surround sound on INHD2 last night at 7pm. It had been plugged by INHD all week - then to my great disappintment I ended up with a baseball game instead.. Yes, painful indeed.

At the same time, there was baseball on INHD1 (San Diego) and baseball on ESPN-HD - why so much ***** baseball? ;-( Is there no other HD content to show for those of us who are not baseball fans?

Peter
Well look at it this way. Your shows will be re-run (and re-run and re-run and...) You'll get another chance to watch it again. If you have the DVR (Tivo) it's even easier, even if it's run at 3am...

The games are LIVE, and will almost certainly not be rerun.

The Giants are indeed painful to watch. I ended up watching it in lo-def in the den so I could get some work done on the computer (and turn the game off after the 3rd Inn.. :(

walk

06-08-05, 07:55 PM

Yes, quite true... :p

BTW, has anyone paid any attention to what if any channels have been converted to 256QAM in their areas? I haven't even checked myself, but I was curious how that was going...
I checked last week a bit, I didn't see any that were 256, all still 64...

sfhub

06-08-05, 09:10 PM

one benefit of being on a 550Mhz system...less channels for them to screw up
Well it turns out HSI (cable modem) runs on QAM256 in my area. I think if it wasn't for the HSI users complaining I'd still be here watching pixelating channels and audio pops every 3 seconds. HD users seem to be pretty low on the totem pole.

kevini

06-08-05, 11:09 PM

BTW, has anyone paid any attention to what if any channels have been converted to 256QAM in their areas? I haven't even checked myself, but I was curious how that was going...

Still no new channels in Fremont. Only the one carrier has been converted. Nothing changed on June 1st. From MikeF5's email I would guess the next changes will be on the 14th.

I guess the 1st is for some parts of the bay area for the next change and the 14th is for the rest. They are also stopping most of the INDemand PPV view on the 14th. Here in Fremont those channels are in the FM range, 99Mhz etc.

IndigoBlu

06-08-05, 11:17 PM

QAM tuner is showing discoveryHD back in the clear (after about a month of encrypted), over here at least.

ShopNBC is still the only channel I have that's now 256QAM.

Barovelli

06-09-05, 01:44 AM

Monterey / Salinas gets iGuide on 2000s & 2500s June 09, as they have been switched to DAC.

DVRs coming soon. Real soon.

We now return you to your local station.

sfhub

06-09-05, 12:52 PM

No change in South Bay either, as reported before, they've changed the channels at 603MHz. 639Mhz has not been changed.

Freq QAM256
603 x 164 Shop NBC
639 182 Fine Living
639 400 Comcast Sports Net
603 x 413 Fox Sports Network Atlantic
603 x 414 Fox Sports Central
603 x 415 Fox Sports Pacific
603 x 482 Black Family Channel
603 x 484 Great American Country
603 x 486 The Word
639 517 Encore East
639 533 Starz East
639 550 HBO East
639 556 HBO Family East
639 562 Cinemax East
639 575 Showtime East
639 579 Showtime Showcase East

greeno

06-09-05, 02:14 PM

In the programming HDTV forum, I've seen that comcast is carrying TNT-HD on the east coast. Any word from local CSR's about when we'll see it out here?

Best,
jeff

bobby94928

06-09-05, 02:44 PM

I just checked and here in Rohnert Park all of Phase 1 and Phase 2 have gone to 256 QAM. Phase 3 is still 64 QAM, but that's not supposed to happen until June 22nd or so.

sfhub

06-09-05, 02:44 PM

Yes, I spoke to this guy Murphy, he said he has some law named after him. He told me just about the time you switch to DirecTV, Comcast will have TNT-HD available.

Seriously, I haven't heard anything from Comcast, but personally I suspect after the QAM256 conversions, you might see some new programming.

sfhub

06-09-05, 03:00 PM

I just checked and here in Rohnert Park all of Phase 1 and Phase 2 have gone to 256 QAM. Phase 3 is still 64 QAM, but that's not supposed to happen until June 22nd or so.
In the last 2 hours, for South Bay, we just lost all digital channels QAM64 and QAM256 and analog channels 66, 72, and 75 and above. I assume this is related to the remainder phase1 and phase2 switch to QAM256, but it seems to be taking a long time.

EDIT: around 12:10pm, all channels just came back.

keenan

06-09-05, 03:44 PM

In the last 2 hours, for South Bay, we just lost all digital channels QAM64 and QAM256 and analog channels 66, 72, and 75 and above. I assume this is related to the remainder phase1 and phase2 switch to QAM256, but it seems to be taking a long time.

EDIT: around 12:10pm, all channels just came back.
See? It only took a day for the next anomaly to show up!! :p :D

sfhub

06-09-05, 04:05 PM

See? It only took a day for the next anomaly to show up!! :p :D
You were right on. :) Do you do sports book prediction too? Pistons or Spurs? :)

Anyway, I think I just got a preview of things to come. The analog channels I lost correspond pretty closely to the new digital channels which are showing up in phase3. Specifically I lost 62analog "History Channel" which is scheduled to show up as 277digital "History Channel" and 75analog "Home & Garden TV" which is scheduled to show up as 203digital "Home & Garden TV"

I suspect they will free up these 2 analog channels, moving them to newly opened up space from the QAM256 conversion.

The other channels OLN(81analog) and GOLF(82analog) already exist as digital channels, so perhaps their frequency will be liberated also.

So this is totally unsubstantiated, but if you care about HIST, HGTV, OLN, or GOLF you should pay close attention, as they *might* end up disappearing soon. This is total conjecture on my part. They might not be disappearing from analog at all. They are after all supposed to be working on "simulcasting", not all digital conversion, but stranger things have happened.

Oh, and BTW, after my service returned I did not have any new QAM256 channels other than the partial ones from the Phase1, reported above. In particular all phase2/3 and part of phase1 were still QAM64.

kevini

06-09-05, 04:21 PM

You were right on. :) Do you do sports book prediction too? Pistons or Spurs? :)

Anyway, I think I just got a preview of things to come. The analog channels I lost correspond pretty closely to the new digital channels which are showing up in phase3. Specifically I lost 62analog "History Channel" which is scheduled to show up as 277digital "History Channel" and 75analog "Home & Garden TV" which is scheduled to show up as 203digital "Home & Garden TV"

I suspect they will free up these 2 analog channels, moving them to newly opened up space from the QAM256 conversion.

The other channels OLN(81analog) and GOLF(82analog) already exist as digital channels, so perhaps their frequency will be liberated also.

So this is totally unsubstantiated, but if you care about HIST, HGTV, OLN, or GOLF you should pay close attention, as they *might* end up disappearing soon. This is total conjecture on my part. They might not be disappearing from analog at all. They are after all supposed to be working on "simulcasting", not all digital conversion, but stranger things have happened.

Oh, and BTW, after my service returned I did not have any new QAM256 channels other than the partial ones from the Phase1, reported above. In particular all phase2/3 and part of phase1 were still QAM64.

Since Mikef5 posted the list only the 550Mhz areas maybe loosing the analog HIST, HGTV. Looking at the Milpitas list they don't get GOLF and OLN today on analog anyway since they are on channel 81 and 82 and 550MHz systems only go up to channel 78. They have them digital today.

Also comcast is moving GOLF to analog all over the rest of the country since they own it. We don't have Golf on digital 405 here in fremont.

On the 750/860Mhz systems we have quite a few channels that were not covered by the upgrade list.

What you saw today maybe the start of DS. Of course I'm just speculating too :)

sfhub

06-09-05, 04:55 PM

Since Mikef5 posted the list only the 550Mhz areas maybe loosing the analog HIST, HGTV. Looking at the Milpitas list they don't get GOLF and OLN today on analog anyway since they are on channel 81 and 82 and 550MHz systems only go up to channel 78. They have them digital today.

Also comcast is moving GOLF to analog all over the rest of the country since they own it. We don't have Golf on digital 405 here in fremont.

On the 750/860Mhz systems we have quite a few channels that were not covered by the upgrade list.

What you saw today maybe the start of DS. Of course I'm just speculating too :)
Hmm, this thread is so long I must have missed the post where Mikef5 mentioned 550Mhz systems might be losing HIST and HGTV. I was just blindly guessing that might happen based on my outage today. If you remember which post, could you point me to it. I'm a little search impaired and I feel like I'm missing a chunk of the big picture.

EDIT: Oh, I see what you are saying. You are theorizing these channels might only be lost for 550Mhz systems because Mikef5 might be getting Milpitas specific information.

Anyway, I'm on a 860Mhz system here and they cut HIST and HGTV analog for me during the test. This could just be for testing or something longer term, but I guess you mentioned it might just be longer term for 550Mhz systems. I'm pretty sure I'm on 860Mhz because I've received test HD channels at RF119/765Mhz before, which is clearly above 750Mhz and I get a bunch of spanish channels at RF118/759Mhz.

Didn't even know 550Mhz systems didn't get OLN and GOLF. I had thought all of bay area had them. That explains why OLN, TVLAND, and GOLF have been digitally simulcast for quite a while now on my 860Mhz system, but they don't show up on Comcast's virtual channel mapping. I only noticed them because I also have QAM tuner.

I suspect you actually do have digital OLN, GOLF, and TVLAND on your system, just they doesn't show up on your box because Comast chose not to map them for systems which have those channels on analog.

What I saw was probably "pre" testing ahead of digital simulcast. I didn't actually see the start of digital simulcast, because HIST and HGTV haven't shown up as digital. I just lost the analog channels 550Mhz systems are rumored to be losing and lost all digital channels. Not even a single extra QAM256 conversion.

kevini

06-09-05, 06:52 PM

Anyway, I'm on a 860Mhz system here and they cut HIST and HGTV analog for me during the test. This could just be for testing or something longer term, but I guess you mentioned it might just be longer term for 550Mhz systems. I'm pretty sure I'm on 860Mhz because I've received test HD channels at RF119/765Mhz before, which is clearly above 750Mhz and I get a bunch of spanish channels at RF118/759Mhz.

Didn't even know 550Mhz systems didn't get OLN and GOLF. I had thought all of bay area had them. That explains why OLN, TVLAND, and GOLF have been digitally simulcast for quite a while now on my 860Mhz system, but they don't show up on Comcast's virtual channel mapping. I only noticed them because I also have QAM tuner.

I suspect you actually do have digital OLN, GOLF, and TVLAND on your system, just they doesn't show up on your box because Comast chose not to map them for systems which have those channels on analog.

What I saw was probably "pre" testing ahead of digital simulcast. I didn't actually see the start of digital simulcast, because HIST and HGTV haven't shown up as digital. I just lost the analog channels 550Mhz systems are rumored to be losing and lost all digital channels. Not even a single extra QAM256 conversion.

Yep you are definitely on 860Mhz. None of my channels go above 753Mhz. I need to get my hands on a QAM tuner to check if they have started the digital version of GOLF, TVLAND and OLN.

I checked again today and also no more 256QAM. My bet will be we will see a lot more on the 14th. They are definitely doing the bay in 2 week staggared phases.

Kevin

keenan

06-09-05, 08:17 PM

You were right on. :) Do you do sports book prediction too? Pistons or Spurs? :)

Spurs in 6... :D

Mikef5

06-09-05, 09:59 PM

Hmm, this thread is so long I must have missed the post where Mikef5 mentioned 550Mhz systems might be losing HIST and HGTV. I was just blindly guessing that might happen based on my outage today. If you remember which post, could you point me to it. I'm a little search impaired and I feel like I'm missing a chunk of the big picture.

EDIT: Oh, I see what you are saying. You are theorizing these channels might only be lost for 550Mhz systems because Mikef5 might be getting Milpitas specific information.

Anyway, I'm on a 860Mhz system here and they cut HIST and HGTV analog for me during the test. This could just be for testing or something longer term, but I guess you mentioned it might just be longer term for 550Mhz systems. I'm pretty sure I'm on 860Mhz because I've received test HD channels at RF119/765Mhz before, which is clearly above 750Mhz and I get a bunch of spanish channels at RF118/759Mhz.

Didn't even know 550Mhz systems didn't get OLN and GOLF. I had thought all of bay area had them. That explains why OLN, TVLAND, and GOLF have been digitally simulcast for quite a while now on my 860Mhz system, but they don't show up on Comcast's virtual channel mapping. I only noticed them because I also have QAM tuner.

I suspect you actually do have digital OLN, GOLF, and TVLAND on your system, just they doesn't show up on your box because Comast chose not to map them for systems which have those channels on analog.

What I saw was probably "pre" testing ahead of digital simulcast. I didn't actually see the start of digital simulcast, because HIST and HGTV haven't shown up as digital. I just lost the analog channels 550Mhz systems are rumored to be losing and lost all digital channels. Not even a single extra QAM256 conversion.

I've never said anyone was losing anything ( as far as channels, I've been losing my mind for a long time :) ) and the post that I made with the schedule of the changeover to 256 QAM came directly from Mr. Johnson ( Vice Pres of Comcast Communications ) and is not specific to any area. The Milpitas, Saratoga, Los Gatos area will not see any changes until phase 3 which is June 22 through July 6 and you can bet your sweet bippy I'll be watching to insure that it happens ;)

Laters,
Mikef5

keenan

06-09-05, 11:13 PM

Anyone getting frozen screens and blocked images on KGO-HD for the NBA game?

bender2929

06-09-05, 11:26 PM

Anyone getting frozen screens and blocked images on KGO-HD for the NBA game?

Me, here in Sunnyvale. It was good early on, but it's gotten really bad later in the game. Of maybe that's just network censorship to shield us from the horrible offense :p

IndigoBlu

06-09-05, 11:27 PM

getting sporadic pauses maybe once each minute. not noticing any blocking though, just some camera blur every now and then. the beginning was pretty flawless for me.

pedroluis26

06-10-05, 12:23 AM

Hey Keenan!
YES! I am using the LG LST-3510A box to get unscrambled HDTV and tonight I was (still am!!) getting pauses in the middle of the game. Then, KQED was coming on and going off the air.
Okay, I just checked and there is no ABC-HDTV or KQED-HDTV!
Anyone else having this problem?
North Oakland, 94609

wco81

06-10-05, 12:26 AM

OK, was the KGO broadcast of the NBA game tonight really bad?

It kept breaking up all night.

keenan

06-10-05, 12:30 AM

OK, was the KGO broadcast of the NBA game tonight really bad?

It kept breaking up all night.
Yes, it was, and it appears it was a local issue, I posted a message to Larry Kenney over at Yahoo SF group, maybe he can find out something....whatever it was, I don't see it since the game has been over...

who_the

06-10-05, 03:16 AM

I watched a perfect 4th quarter in HD on KGO OTA in San Francisco. Might this be a Comcast issue?

pedroluis26

06-10-05, 11:31 PM

sfhub

06-11-05, 12:34 AM

Question:
Does anyone know why after 8PM both KGOHD and KQEDHD (both multiplexes) go offline? I am using a QAM tuner (LG LST-3510A), not the Comcast HDBox. I get them for five minutes and then, poof! they disappear. Then, they come back in the morning, except that there is no KQED r KGO HD in the morning.
Thanks!
P.S.: How do I know whether I am on 750 or whatever Mhz?
I remember reading LG has a problem dealing with how the KQED multicast switches from 4 SD channels to 1 HD and 1 SD channel. KQED and KGO share the same underlying channel so that's probably why they are both affected.

If you search on LG you'll probably get to read more about the bug.

I think if you have inHD then you are on 750Mhz or higher.

plumeria

06-11-05, 03:41 PM

Question:
Does anyone know why after 8PM both KGOHD and KQEDHD (both multiplexes) go offline? I am using a QAM tuner (LG LST-3510A), not the Comcast HDBox. I get them for five minutes and then, poof! they disappear. Then, they come back in the morning, except that there is no KQED r KGO HD in the morning.
Thanks!
P.S.: How do I know whether I am on 750 or whatever Mhz?

You are not the first one on the Bay Area to have this problem - there are many of us...

Search under my user name for many postings on this topic - related to the 4200A, both in this group and also the "Hardware" section.

peter
p.s I solved the problem by installing an antenna :-( Uisng cable you can continue to watch these shows after 8pm but can't tune back to them from another channel - e.g. 116 or 115 etc.

keenan

06-11-05, 05:23 PM

Possibly one of the reasons why there is no TNT-HD out here,

Comcast has a Limited Distribution License for TNT-HD in Select Areas. At this Time PA is NOT one of them. Due to the response from Comcast subscribers, Comcast will be adding areas to this contract in the fall of 2005, so it is possible that TNT-HD will be made available to Comcast systems that have room on there systems by end of year!

From scanpa's post in the TNT-HD thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5745112#post5745112
TNT-HD on Comcast! - AVS Forum

pedroluis26

06-11-05, 09:44 PM

You are not the first one on the Bay Area to have this problem - there are many of us...

Search under my user name for many postings on this topic - related to the 4200A, both in this group and also the "Hardware" section.

peter
p.s I solved the problem by installing an antenna :-( Uisng cable you can continue to watch these shows after 8pm but can't tune back to them from another channel - e.g. 116 or 115 etc.

Thanks, Plumeria. Before getting the LG box I had an antenna, so yes, I am forced to watch KQEDHD OTA, but that's okay. I am gonna go read the rest of the postings on this topic. I was glad to know I wasn't the only one having this problem; it seems to me that DTv in Europe is less complicated, but alas, we're in the US.

TPeterson

06-12-05, 12:55 AM

Sheesh.

Tonight I attempted to record "Fearless" at 6 p.m. on INHD2. Evidently, Comcast switched over to the Giants game about 35 minutes later. Yes, it's being shown again at midnight tonight (I hope with no baseball-game asides) but the manner of the switchover couldn't have been more mysterious: Not only was there no announcement, AFAICT, beforehand, but they also exchanged(!) the video and audio PIDs at the switchover, so that my recorded show simply ceased abruptly to a blank screen! If I hadn't happen to turn on INHD2 again before the game had ended, I likely never would have figured out what happened!!

Sheesh. :mad:

plumeria

06-12-05, 04:21 AM

Baseball clearly gets priority over all other programming ;(

peter

slickrock

06-12-05, 06:21 AM

I recently purchased a Fusion HDTV5 card and I'm in the process of troubleshooting QAM reception. So far I can receive OTA HD with no problems, but I'm unable so far to receive any HD QAM channels while performing a scan operation while connected to Comcast cable in the Half Moon Bay area. I'm new the fusion card as well as any available QAM channels in my area, so I'm not sure if its card, the reception, channel encrytion, frequency range, modulation , etc.

For starters, I'm looking for a list of non-encrypted channels (and respective channel numbers /frequency etc.) that people are receiving from Comcast in the S.F. and San Mateo. I'd like to manually enter these numbers in Fusion and test the results. Ideally I'm looking for posters who use HTPC tuner cards and are successfully getting these channels in the clear.

Thanks,
sl

TPeterson

06-12-05, 11:02 AM

Baseball clearly gets priority over all other programming ;(

peterMy complaint is only partially about priorities. It's mainly that the switchover was so Micky Mouse. (No announcement and PID disruption--even going to a screwy video PID number > audio PID number setup) Sheesh.

TPeterson

06-12-05, 11:04 AM

sl--

Look at channels 79, 105, 115, 116, and 117 for 256QAM HD streams (and don't be surprised when those all change).

Brian Conrad

06-12-05, 03:49 PM

Yeah, I've been annoyed more than once when my scheduled recording came up with a baseball game instead of a movie I wanted. I suppose Comcast believes they will sell more subscriptions with sports than movies but I am a movie fan and could care less about sports (there's too much of it in this country anyway).

keenan

06-12-05, 03:55 PM

Speaking of sports, I hope the KGO-HD feed tonight doesn't have the same problems it had last Thursday for the NBA final.

keenan

06-12-05, 11:09 PM

Guess not, starting at around 8pm it's doing the same crap it was doing last Thursday... :rolleyes:

wco81

06-12-05, 11:15 PM

Not only that, it dropped to SD for awhile and it was still stuttering.

ABC must have gotten the bad HDTV truck while ESPN gets the good ones for baseball?

This is the NBA championships and they can't get their act together. It was alright last year.

wco81

06-12-05, 11:24 PM

OK, I'm not seeing it happen in the Direct TV feed at all. This is KABC in LA.

So KGO seems to be where the problem is.

web

06-12-05, 11:36 PM

Guess not, starting at around 8pm it's doing the same crap it was doing last Thursday... :rolleyes:

There was no problem during the first half. I wonder what changed during the second half to cause this problem. Same thing during Thursday's game. No problem during the first half, PQ problems during the second half.

web

keenan

06-13-05, 01:33 AM

Not only that, it dropped to SD for awhile and it was still stuttering.
There was no problem during the first half. I wonder what changed during the second half to cause this problem. Same thing during Thursday's game. No problem during the first half, PQ problems during the second half.

web

Yeah, I saw that too, that's when I switched to KABC and it was fine. So it is definitely a KGO issue. I don't remember exactly when it started last Thursday but I'm pretty sure it was the second half, which would have been around 8 PM, which is exactly when it started tonight as well. Some thing must be happening at KGO around 8. The sad part is I guess it's going to continue unless we can get someone at KGO to look into it. Watching a BB game this way is annoying as hell. Any of you guys capable of getting screen shots that can be sent to KGO?

P.S. As far as I remember. the breakups only occur during the live action, never during breaks, unless some of you noticed that it happens during the breaks as well.

sfhub

06-13-05, 10:27 AM

thatdude90210

06-13-05, 11:46 AM

I kind of lost track, was this a problem with KGO over Comcast only, or was it KGO OTA also?
I only watched the 4th quarter. I tried KGO both on Comcast and OTA. Both had bad video breakups.

walk

06-13-05, 02:04 PM

I looked again over the weekend and about 1/4 of the channels I checked were 256QAM. It doesn't seem to make much sense either. One channel is 256, but the one right next to it is 64. HBO-E and I think HBO-W are 256, the rest of them are 64... MTV-J is 256, but MTV2 is 64, etc.... SCIFI is still 64 :(

Also I said this last page but... Everyone has different tastes of course, if your movie gets preempted by sports I'm sorry for you but the sports is LIVE while the movies/etc are not, and will probably be re-run about 400 times in the next few weeks/months/etc... If you have DVR then it's even more simple. Just try to set it to record the shows on late night/etc.. when games aren't usually on.

keenan

06-13-05, 02:14 PM

I kind of lost track, was this a problem with KGO over Comcast only, or was it KGO OTA also?

If it was Comcast only, then it might have something to do with KQED switch from 4xSD to 1xHD+1xSD at 8pm.

If it was Comcast and OTA, then it is probably something at KGO.

I saw the problems on KGO/Comcast, but didn't have my OTA setup available to check KGO/OTA.

You are right, it is real annoying to watch a game like that. I had the same "symptoms" plus audio clicks and pops for 3 weeks, but I'm sure the cause of that was different from the KGO problem as it was a Comcast problem specific to a few nodes.
I can only speak about the Comcast feed, although when I first brought it up others had mentioned it was OTA as well. Although even others with OTA said they have not seen it.

In any case, it is a real problem, last night while it was happening I had two friends on the phone and the breakups happened on their displays at the exact same times.

After I posted last night the KQED going HD at 8PM also occurred to me as that's the only thing I can think of that would have changed from before 8PM when everything is fine(other than the focus issues).

I seem to recall on the Yahoo SF HDTV board something about a problem that involved KGO and KQED but I haven't searched for it yet and I don't remember what it was.

While these breakups were happening, I checked the channel status on the STB and nothing there gave any indication that there was anything wrong, good SNR and AGC and no error counts, so that seems to indicate that the problem is with KGO and not Comcast.

I emailed Larry Kenney to see if he could investigate it for us at KGO.

I wonder if a change in venue(Detroit) will make a difference, I guess I can only hope at this point as it is absolutely annoying when watching BB, if it was watching grass grow I wouldn't have a problem with it, but seeing a player at the 3 point line and then seeing him under the basket in the next instant is ridiculous. :p