San Francisco, CA - Comcast [Text View] - Page 42

Mikef5

05-23-06, 12:48 PM

There won't be any gain in space, the UPN channel will become CW and the WB channel will become an independent, but it will still be a local channel so it has to be carried anyway.
I'm going to have to look up what exactly this new network is going to broadcast, digital only or analog and digital signals , but it would only be one channel instead of the two that they are now, so at least one analog channel will be freed up. Either way this would be a new network and Comcast would have to negotiate a new contract with the new network CW and we've seen the negotiating power of Comcast with their on going talks with ABC and trying to get ESPN2- HD :rolleyes:
I don't think WB is going to be an independent, what I had heard is that they would be combined into one network and their programing would be cherry picked for the best programs from both old networks, I could be wrong, I'll have to find the article again.

Laters,
Mikef5

Mikef5

05-23-06, 01:15 PM

Keenan,
Just saw this link about 2-wire and their new HD box http://www.hdbeat.com/2006/05/23/atandts-new-hi-def-homezone-box/
This thing seems alot like the VIP 622 with some new features. I know you were getting a Dish setup and thought you'd give this a look and see what you think of it. I know there was a rumor of Dish coming out with a new box and this might be what they were talking about.

Laters,
Mikef5

keenan

05-23-06, 01:44 PM

I'm going to have to look up what exactly this new network is going to broadcast, digital only or analog and digital signals , but it would only be one channel instead of the two that they are now, so at least one analog channel will be freed up. Either way this would be a new network and Comcast would have to negotiate a new contract with the new network CW and we've seen the negotiating power of Comcast with their on going talks with ABC and trying to get ESPN2- HD :rolleyes:
I don't think WB is going to be an independent, what I had heard is that they would be combined into one network and their programing would be cherry picked for the best programs from both old networks, I could be wrong, I'll have to find the article again.

Laters,
Mikef5
The station that used to be WB, KBWB, will still be around though and I'm sure they'll have some sort of programing although it will probably be local or syndicated stuff. But since it's still a local station Comcast is required to carry it.

I think a bigger issue is KRON-HD and KBHK-HD which both will have a lot of HD programming, see the schedule CPanther95 created.
I converted it to PDF format for him.

Mikef5

05-23-06, 02:09 PM

The station that used to be WB, KBWB, will still be around though and I'm sure they'll have some sort of programing although it will probably be local or syndicated stuff. But since it's still a local station Comcast is required to carry it.

I think a bigger issue is KRON-HD and KBHK-HD which both will have a lot of HD programming, see the schedule CPanther95 created.
I converted it to PDF format for him.
The KRON stuff seems to be mostly Soap's, not very compelling for me :p and the CW stuff is alot of old stuff and 7th Heaven rising from the grave with a new life :)
Man, programing is going down hill fast.....

Laters,
Mikef5

nikeykid

05-23-06, 02:15 PM

keenan

05-23-06, 02:21 PM

The KRON stuff seems to be mostly Soap's, not very compelling for me :p and the CW stuff is alot of old stuff and 7th Heaven rising from the grave with a new life :)
Man, programing is going down hill fast.....

Laters,
Mikef5
I think they're officially called "telenovelas", spanish for primetime soap, only in this case they're in english. :p Not my cup of tea either.

In the case of CW, I think you'll find those shows have quite a few viewers, 7th Heaven, Gilmore Girls, Smallville and Supernatural have quite a bit of a following on this board, and Veronica Mars is one of my favorites as well as being highly acclaimed by the TV critics, great acting and storylines. I would probably watch Smallville if I could get it in HD but I don't know anything about the others.

keenan

05-23-06, 02:24 PM

will comcast carry CW-HD? with more HD programming it seems like a very important addition! i'm kinda excited KRON will actually have some HD programming that isn't about harry's garden or whatever. its like getting a new HD channel for fall. now whether the network will be watchable is quite another issue.
I think Comcast should and needs to carry KBHK in HD as it will be the only "major" network station that they don't carry, although, in many 550 systems KRON-HD isn't carried either, personally I could care less about KRON but KBHK would be a worthy addition in my opinion.

Mikef5

05-23-06, 02:30 PM

I think they're officially called "telenovelas", spanish for primetime soap, only in this case they're in english. :p Not my cup of tea either.

In the case of CW, I think you'll find those shows have quite a few viewers, 7th Heaven, Gilmore Girls, Smallville and Supernatural have quite a bit of a following on this board, and Veronica Mars is one of my favorites as well as being highly acclaimed by the TV critics, great acting and storylines. I would probably watch Smallville if I could get it in HD but I don't know anything about the others.
You will be able to get CW in HD, maybe not with Comcast but Dish will be carrying it and they don't care that you live in a 550 MHz area :D

Laters,
Mikef5

keenan

05-23-06, 03:20 PM

I just got my Comcast bill today and I gotta tell ya, I feel like shooting somebody, along with the bill is a really nice flyer that lists the A's and Giant's HD schedules and on one of the pages it says in nice big letters "See the A's and Giants in amazing HD! Only from Comcast and FSN Bay Area".

You know, I can deal with the lack of bandwidth and whatever other problems Comcast claims are the reasons for the lack of channels, but to send this sort of **** to subs who cannot get the channel in the first place is just too much, it's annoying, rude, lazy and inconsiderate, Comcast can go F themselves...oh yeah, on the bill it mentions that Jewelry TV is now available on Ch 410...I'm think I'm going to scream.

Whew, I feel better now...even though I still can't see my local teams in HD!! :mad: :p

Being a footnote as in "available in most areas" or "not available everywhere" or "check your local office" may make Comcast feel all warm and fuzzy about themselves but we're getting tired of being that little exclusion all the time, especially when we're paying the same GD price!!!

MANNAXMAN

05-23-06, 03:35 PM

I'm not saying anyone should be held back but if I'm paying the same rates for cable as the greater than 550 MHz are then I should receive the same programing that they are. Right now my cable bill is $135 a month. I have the top tier and have only 2 phase 3 boxes but I only get 1 HD movie channel ( HBO-HD ), we have no VOD, we don't have the lame KRON-HD, that's it. We do get INHD1 and 2, ESPN-HD and the local HD channels. So why am I paying the same as the rest of the area and getting less ??? Should Comcast correct this inequity ??? You bet they should. Why haven't they even started doing something about it ??? Not cost effective is why. Should they do it at the expense of other areas ?? No, they don't have to, they can do both, one is not dependent on the other. Most of what Comcast or any other business does or doesn't do is based on the bottom line and unfortunately the 550 MHz areas are at the bottom of that bottom line.
Boy, I haven't been on the soap box in a long time :D

Laters,
Mikef5
Not all 550MHz systems are alike. Here in Sunnyvale, we DON'T get the INHD channels. So we're getting even MORE hosed!!!

nikeykid

05-23-06, 04:34 PM

contact a local news station... someone... please. you guys are all getting cheated.

nikeykid

05-23-06, 04:35 PM

oh and while ur at it.... maybe we can also expose d*'s hdlite..... we need to keep these companies in check with what they offer to us :) nothing they like more than some bad press.

mds54

05-23-06, 07:09 PM

contact a local news station... someone... please. you guys are all getting cheated.

We've done that before....and it actually worked -- in the case of the addition of FOX-HD (KTVU) in time for the 2004 Superbowl, and the release of the new DVRs in the Bay Area. I know I spoke with at least 3-4 media folks myself, along with several others here. But I think this bandwidth disparity issue goes far deeper, and there's no quick fix. These 550Mhz guys have been fighting for months to no avail, right? I sure wish that Comcast would at least issue an *honest* statement regarding their intentions for the Bay Area. If they have NO plans to add any new HD channels anytime in the near future - for any system - then come right out and say it, so we can go elsewhere!

keenan

05-23-06, 07:29 PM

These 550Mhz guys have been fighting for months to no avail, right?
Years would be more accurate.

Mikef5

05-23-06, 10:29 PM

oh and while ur at it.... maybe we can also expose d*'s hdlite..... we need to keep these companies in check with what they offer to us :) nothing they like more than some bad press.
I've been doing this since the dvr fiasco, I went to several newspapers and for a while things got better but as time goes on things have gone backwards. For those that want to contact the press here's a good contact, TWallack@sfchronicle.com . That is Todd Wallack of the SF Chronicle, I'm sure he'll be more than happy to talk to some more people about your concerns about what Comcast is doing or not doing, I know he's always looking for a good story. I'm sure Keenan remembers Todd :D
OOPS, Bonds is up -- back to the game.

Laters,
Mikef5

DeaneG

05-24-06, 05:10 PM

For those lucky few who are in an area with Analog-Digital Simulcast fully operational, are all your analog channels' equivalents available in clear QAM? Or are they encrypted, so that you need to install a Comcast digital box or cablecard to decode them?

I'm wondering how Comcast will separate "basic" from "standard" (extended) ex-analog legacy customers, once they drop analog transmission. It has to be either with a frequency-band filter (as it is now for analog extended), or encryption. Either one means some hardware installed at each non-premium customer, even if the customer has all digital-ready TVs.

TPeterson

05-24-06, 05:26 PM

They all seem to be clear QAM right now...but as to what will happen as the roll out proceeds to completion...who knows? Barovelli...you reading this? Will any of the ADS QAM stuff stay in the clear when the analogs go dark?

Mikef5

05-24-06, 06:11 PM

An update to the on going problems with KTVU. This is from Mr. J. who has allowed me to post it to the forum.
____________________________________________________________ ___________

According to Bob Hofert, Broadcast Engineer for KTVU, and as recent postings by Forum members have outlined in great detail, KTVU is experiencing difficulties with their HD signal.
As some of you know, Comcast monitors carefully the signal strength and quality we receive from the local broadcasters and national cables networks at various times throughout the day and immediately pass on any problems we encounter. In some cases, the problem does originate in the Comcast network and we dispatch a crew promptly to troubleshoot the problem.
KTVU has advised us they are "getting new equipment" to address the HD picture quality issues.
In addition, they are investigating whether or not they are having a problem with their network feed.
Again, as Forum members have pointed out, over the last few weeks during the 8PM - 10PM viewing hours (when FOX HD broadcasts the network feed) there has been occasional tiling in the picture.
With the final episode of "American Idol" on tonight from 8PM to 10PM Mr. Hofert will be at their studio personally "babysitting" their feed.

We have asked him to keep us informed on their progress in resolving these issues.

____________________________________________________________ ____________

So it seems that Comcast and KTVU are aware of this on going problem and are trying to get it resolved , plus they are reading this forum. So if you have concerns be advised that they do read this forum and will eventually try and get things staighted out. Personally, I could care less about American Idol, now 24 or House is a different story entirely ... :p

Laters,
Mikef5

mds54

05-24-06, 06:45 PM

Thanks for the update!
(I'm not interested in "American Idol" either, and "24" is over for the season,
but HD NASCAR on FOX is still happening!)

So.....is this related to the same problem that surfaced over three weeks ago when they stated that they were waiting for parts?

PaulGo

05-24-06, 07:54 PM

In Montgomery County, MD all the ADS channels are encrypted, even the local broadcast channels. The only unencrypted channels are the HD local broadcast channels (as required by law).

mterzich

05-25-06, 12:47 AM

Anyone have a problem with the cable network around 9 pm today? I'm on the Fremont network and my 6412 got completely hosed up causing me to remove the power cord to correct the problem. I Lost the sound, got messages indicating that they couldn't delete the current program, and extremely slow to change channels. This occurred for over a half an hour until I finally decided to pull the plug.

fender4645

05-25-06, 02:16 AM

golfster84

05-25-06, 03:07 AM

rsra13

05-25-06, 09:35 AM

are you watching an SD channel?? :O

;)

nikeykid

05-25-06, 12:19 PM

are you watching an SD channel?? :O

;)
are you talking about an SD channel on an HD forum?? **snobby hmph** might as well go back to the stone age. lol. j/k... no problems at end of suns game here.

russwong

05-25-06, 08:06 PM

Mikef5

05-25-06, 10:10 PM

So I thought I pretty much had it all figured out and accepted that cbs in San Francisco Comcast via the firewire was protected for some reason. I've been able to record Fox, ABC, NBC, and PBS. CBS always failed, so I would use my 2 other HD cards to record CBS. Well, last night for some reason the Lost season finale failed recording and gave me the same error in Media Center. Something about the content provider restricting it. I've been able to record Lost in the past via this method.

Anyone know if ABC or Comcast made any changes to the ability to record ABC off of firewire? Lucky I decided to actually watch the show live and I had my other HD card record it as well, but would like to figure this out.

Russ
I don't think that Comcast or Channel 7 have done anything to prevent you from recording. You said you have 2 HD cards, one failed to record and the other WAS able to record the show, to me that says the signal was fine but you have a problem with one of your cards otherwise both would've failed to record the show.

Laters,
Mikef5

fender4645

05-25-06, 10:31 PM

So I thought I pretty much had it all figured out and accepted that cbs in San Francisco Comcast via the firewire was protected for some reason. I've been able to record Fox, ABC, NBC, and PBS. CBS always failed, so I would use my 2 other HD cards to record CBS. Well, last night for some reason the Lost season finale failed recording and gave me the same error in Media Center. Something about the content provider restricting it. I've been able to record Lost in the past via this method.

Anyone know if ABC or Comcast made any changes to the ability to record ABC off of firewire? Lucky I decided to actually watch the show live and I had my other HD card record it as well, but would like to figure this out.

Russ

Did you ever check the status through the Moto box's diagnostics menu to see if the channels were actually 5c protected? That could help narrow down the problem.

russwong

05-26-06, 11:45 AM

I suspect what fender4645 said is the true answer. I actually have 3 HD tuners, 2 are via cards that don't recognize the 5C flag, so they record, while the other is via the comcast firewire recording. That's the tuner that failed.

My question was more towards: Did ABC/Comcast/etc just decide to enable 5C protection on the Lost season finale, because I've been able to record it in the past with out a problem and I could record other shows on ABC.

I'll have to check the diagnostics to see if 5C has now been enabled on ABC shows too as well as CBS. Just wondering if that was a recent known change or did they just enable it on the season finale show for Lost, because they didn't do it for Desperate Housewives of Invasion...

I don't think that Comcast or Channel 7 have done anything to prevent you from recording. You said you have 2 HD cards, one failed to record and the other WAS able to record the show, to me that says the signal was fine but you have a problem with one of your cards otherwise both would've failed to record the show.

Laters,
Mikef5

Mikef5

05-26-06, 12:51 PM

I suspect what fender4645 said is the true answer. I actually have 3 HD tuners, 2 are via cards that don't recognize the 5C flag, so they record, while the other is via the comcast firewire recording. That's the tuner that failed.

My question was more towards: Did ABC/Comcast/etc just decide to enable 5C protection on the Lost season finale, because I've been able to record it in the past with out a problem and I could record other shows on ABC.

I'll have to check the diagnostics to see if 5C has now been enabled on ABC shows too as well as CBS. Just wondering if that was a recent known change or did they just enable it on the season finale show for Lost, because they didn't do it for Desperate Housewives of Invasion...
My bad, I read your question wrong. I thought the failure was on one of your HD cards not the Moto box. The box does honor the 5c flag but I don't think Comcast inserts that code into the signal, that is done by the network or the people providing the content for broadcast but that's not to say that Comcast couldn't do it I just don't see why Comcast would or even care unless the network told them to do it. I did check the diagnostics menu and 5c is 0 on all the local HD stations at least here is the slums of SaraMilgatos.

Laters,
Mikef5

walk

05-26-06, 01:58 PM

I've been watching the NBA on TNT for the past couple of weeks, and have been noticing the picture will freeze intermittently. It can get pretty annoying especially while trying to watch an NBA game. Anyone else have this problem?If you have a digital cable box it's because of the new ADS there are still bugs in this obviously mine freezes up quite a lot especially for the first couple of minutes after changing channels.. If you're watching on analog cable then .. I don't know.

By the way anyone know the time frame for when they plan to discontinue analog? There was an article in the Merc about them keeping FSN+ on channel 77 (or whatever) until late June so that people could watch Giants games and Bonds home run chase :)
Anyway they better work out all the bugs before that because then it won't be just a few of us "early adopters" complaining about glitches and freezes it will be EVERYONE...

sfhub

05-26-06, 03:38 PM

By the way anyone know the time frame for when they plan to discontinue analog? There was an article in the Merc about them keeping FSN+ on channel 77 (or whatever) until late June so that people could watch Giants games and Bonds home run chase :)
I doubt it is anytime in the next year. It is called All Digital Simulcast for a reason. They might get rid of some less popular analog channels, but the majority should be around. They couldn't just drop analog completely without a lot of preparation work because despite what folks on this forum use, many people still use analog to their VCRs, TiVo's, etc. even if they have a digital cable box and many don't even have a box so they are 100% analog.

When you start seeing DCT-700's being delivered to everyones' houses, then you know analog is on the way out, but even then, the locals will probably still be in analog, at least until the OTA cutoff date.

That's my opinion, I don't have any inside info from Comcast.

fender4645

05-26-06, 03:48 PM

The box does honor the 5c flag but I don't think Comcast inserts that code into the signal, that is done by the network or the people providing the content for broadcast but that's not to say that Comcast couldn't do it I just don't see why Comcast would or even care unless the network told them to do it.

I think Comcast does have to do something in order for the 5c flag to be enabled. If it was something the network was doing then all of us would have ABC and CBS protected since all of our boxes support the 5c flag. I was under the impression that a network will request to have something protected and it's up the provider to enable it on their system. This is just my impression though...

keenan

05-26-06, 05:51 PM

I doubt it is anytime in the next year. It is called All Digital Simulcast for a reason. They might get rid of some less popular analog channels, but the majority should be around. They couldn't just drop analog completely without a lot of preparation work because despite what folks on this forum use, many people still use analog to their VCRs, TiVo's, etc. even if they have a digital cable box and many don't even have a box so they are 100% analog.

When you start seeing DCT-700's being delivered to everyones' houses, then you know analog is on the way out, but even then, the locals will probably still be in analog, at least until the OTA cutoff date.

That's my opinion, I don't have any inside info from Comcast.
Well, here's some inside info. :p

It's a post by PaulGo about an email discussion with the CTO of Comcast about ADS/Analog plans.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7726767#post7726767
Comcast New Technology Test - AVS Forum

(BTW, it doesn't appear there will be much relief for 550 systems anytime soon based on what is said by the CTO regarding retention of analog channels.)

Mikef5

05-26-06, 06:39 PM

Well, here's some inside info. :p

It's a post by PaulGo about an email discussion with the CTO of Comcast about ADS/Analog plans.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7726767#post7726767
Comcast New Technology Test - AVS Forum

(BTW, it doesn't appear there will be much relief for 550 systems anytime soon based on what is said by the CTO regarding retention of analog channels.)
The problem with his statement is they are going to keep some analog stations after the 2009 analog shutoff... Where is he going to get an analog signal, they are shut off. Are they going to take the digital signal ( which will be the only signal broadcasted after 2009 ) and then convert it to analog. I don't think so, even Comcast isn't that stupid.... or are they... :eek:
But from the sound of his statements the 550 MHz areas are screwed for a long time to come. I guess that just about does it for me, after baseball season I am definately gone.

Laters,
Mikef5

keenan

05-26-06, 06:58 PM

hiker

05-26-06, 07:18 PM

Stations Oppose HDTV Downconversion
Info about that in the post right above the one in the link you posted.

PaulGo

05-26-06, 07:19 PM

I also posted this:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7726721&&#post7726721

sfhub

05-26-06, 07:49 PM

Stations Oppose HDTV Downconversion
Info about that in the post right above the one in the link you posted.
I think you are confusing the context.

Stations don't have a problem with MSO converting HDTV to analog (which is the natural response to Mikef5's question about where are they getting the analog signal)

They have a problem with MSO converting HDTV to DTV.

hiker

05-26-06, 07:57 PM

I wasn't confusing anything. I just referred to the news article that PaulGo posted. Link in the post right above yours, the same I referred to.

Mikef5

05-26-06, 08:11 PM

I wasn't confusing anything. I just referred to the news article that PaulGo posted. Link in the post right above yours, the same I referred to.
You're right and it's not confusing to me, the stations don't want the cable companies to down-res the HD signals but they are fine with the conversion of digital signals for the analog people. So the 550 MHz areas are in for a long wait before anything gets done here, other than my temper going through the ceiling :mad:
Man, after being with cable for over 15 years, they treat the 550 MHz like second class customers..........time to cool off for a while while I get my ducks in a row.

Laters,
Mikef5

fender4645

05-26-06, 08:14 PM

Another key point is that the "2009 rule" only applies to the "must carry" stations -- i.e. broadcast stations. Cable companies are free to carry analog versions of ESPN, Discovery, Food Network, etc. until their heart's content.

keenan

05-26-06, 09:14 PM

I also posted this:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7726721&&#post7726721
That's it, right above the other one, nothing like being brain-dead.... :p :D

Chandu1

05-26-06, 09:30 PM

Apparently they can and will provide analog after the shutoff, I just read an article today about legislation regarding exactly that. The same legislation was being molded to make sure that cablecos would not be allowed to down-rez HD signals. Seems as if they couldn't do both but it was explained in the article, I have to try and find it, I looked before I posted this but couldn't find it. I think it was a Multichannel News article.

..and yeah, if they are going to keep 30-60 analog channels after the shutoff, 550 systems are in a real hurt. We don't want Comcast to have to buy 20 million or so converters do we..? Cheaper and easier just to screw us out of the bandwidth. We pay the same anyway, what does Comcast care..?

What I'm not understanding is, there are newer players like Verizon FiOS starting to emerge on the horizon. (Rhyming pun intended.) They will have the advantage of being all digital by virtue of not carrying any older baggage. Already, the big DBS guys have squeezed Comcast's margins like crazy.

I'm a prime example. I went down from digital cable to expanded basic and then to bare bone basic. I moved to DISH with ViP 622 HD Gold at the same time. With a QAM tuner, even with the lowest basic tier, I get all FCC mandated digital channels, including local HD from Comcast. I just don't need to keep paying Comcrap for all their other crap.

How relevant can Comcast stay with their backward compatible goal for kitchen TVs (even smaller and smaller sets are expected to come with builtin ATSC+QAM tuners BTW) wasting bandwidth, when competitors like Verizon can sweep them away? This is not even considering the stupid things like 550 MHz area lockins. It seems like some bigwigs at Comcast sure have their head buried in the sand.

fender4645

05-26-06, 09:36 PM

Mikef5

05-26-06, 09:39 PM

It seems like some bigwigs at Comcast sure have their head buried in the sand.
That's not where I would've said their heads are buried.... :rolleyes:
But good points and I guess it's time to seriously go with Dish.

Laters,
Mikef5

PaulGo

05-26-06, 10:04 PM

Mikef5

05-26-06, 10:45 PM

If Comcast goes to say 20 to 30 analog channels from 75 that allows over 100 HD additional channels. If they used switched technology with mpeg-4 for half of this spectrum they could have over several hundred HD channels. However they saying goes "when I see it I will believe it".
Well, if Comcast had done the right thing in the first place, by upgrading ALL AREAS to the same level, this would all be a mute point and I've heard all the pie in the sky promises and so far we're still at the same point, 550 MHz and no relief in sight.

Laters,
Mikef5

keenan

05-26-06, 11:01 PM

Part of the problem is that the HD viewer is just not a big enough force to be reckoned with yet. In Santa Rosa there's about 66,000 or so subs and I'd be surprised if there was more than 500 of them actually using HD signals. In fact, that number may even be high. HD is just not making Comcast any money, they're going to take care of that other 65,000 or so first as that's where their bread and butter is.

sfhub

05-26-06, 11:20 PM

How relevant can Comcast stay with their backward compatible goal for kitchen TVs (even smaller and smaller sets are expected to come with builtin ATSC+QAM tuners BTW) wasting bandwidth, when competitors like Verizon can sweep them away? This is not even considering the stupid things like 550 MHz area lockins. It seems like some bigwigs at Comcast sure have their head buried in the sand.
They can stay very relevant and also have a competetive advantage FIOS and satellite cannot match.

Despite what you may have in your home, the vast majority of customers have some form of analog they continue to use in their home, even if they have HDTV.

By being the only analog solution out there, Comcast retains a large portion of their customers who are analog only or are mixed analog/digital.

Beyond that, every analog station they eliminate gives them 2 HD channels. I'm sure you can go through your 1-80 channels and find 10 channels which can be scrapped or moved to digital (except for licensing deals which may have been signed before forcing analog) That gives you 20 more HD channels. That's more than enough to give most folks a decent selection of HD (and I don't mean jewelry channel in HD)

Mikef5

05-27-06, 01:10 AM

They can stay very relevant and also have a competetive advantage FIOS and satellite cannot match.

Despite what you may have in your home, the vast majority of customers have some form of analog they continue to use in their home, even if they have HDTV.

By being the only analog solution out there, Comcast retains a large portion of their customers who are analog only or are mixed analog/digital.

Beyond that, every analog station they eliminate gives them 2 HD channels. I'm sure you can go through your 1-80 channels and find 10 channels which can be scrapped or moved to digital (except for licensing deals which may have been signed before forcing analog) That gives you 20 more HD channels. That's more than enough to give most folks a decent selection of HD (and I don't mean jewelry channel in HD)
You know I bet they went through the same bitching and moaning when they switched from B&W to color. Look at all the b&w sets that will be useless, why should I be forced to buy a new set, my b&w is just fine ... etc. etc. etcetera It's called progress, let's just get out of the Analog Age and get into the Digital Age. I bet everyone here has a computer and probably it has a digital monitor and you're probably not using a VGA or SVGA graphics card so why the fixation with analog tv ?? The boxes for digital to analog conversion ( for people that want analog sets ) are sitting in a warehouse in the South Bay, so why don't they use them ?? Comcast needs to get off their keesters and get things done. Comcast doesn't think it has competition ?? Well, IBM and Silicon Graphics didn't think they had competition at one time too and were are they now ..... just also rans. Well, I'm off the soapbox for now and remember this is not directed at anyone but Comcast because they are the only ones that can fix this mess.

Laters,
Mikef5

bwalters316

05-27-06, 02:37 PM

davisdog

05-28-06, 01:27 AM

Does anybody have any info on when Comcast is going to add FSN-HD (i.e., INHD/INHD2) in Sunnyvale?

I would be ecstatic to have the lineup of Saratoga, Milpitas, or Los Gatos; then I could at least watch the Giants, Warriors, and Sharks in HD. I moved from Santa Clara to Sunnyvale last year and cable-wise, it was like going from the penthouse to the outhouse.

Any info anyone has is greatly appreciated! If I can find out for sure that Comcast has no plans to add it for a long time (like until 2009), I'll cancel immediately.

- Brandon

Brandon,

Dont hold your breath, Comcast hasnt made any changes in your area of Sunnyvale in a couple years and they havent given any indications that anything is planned...I would look elsewhere if I were you...FSN-HD is about the only advantage Comcast has...and you dont get it...you can get Dish or DTV with many more HD channels for the same or less.

Mikef5

05-28-06, 11:59 AM

Brandon,

Dont hold your breath, Comcast hasnt made any changes in your area of Sunnyvale in a couple years and they havent given any indications that anything is planned...I would look elsewhere if I were you...FSN-HD is about the only advantage Comcast has...and you dont get it...you can get Dish or DTV with many more HD channels for the same or less.
I'm afraid that Davisdog is probably right about your situation but it's not any better here in the other 550 MHz areas. I just read a link provided by PaulGo and it's not looking good for any of the 550 MHz areas read it here....

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6337395.html

This is the part that really bothers me...

Comcast Corp. chairman and CEO Brian Roberts also backed off on an all-digital initiative at the nation’s largest cable operator, adding that digital simulcast -- currently available in about 80% of Comcast’s markets -- may be the more prudent way to go.

Asked if Comcast would ever get rid of the analog tier altogether or if in the future, the cable operator would always have some form of an analog tier, Roberts said that internally, company executives have debated that 20-40 analog channels would remain until at least 2011.

“It would be better if we don’t have to make the hard decisions like that,” Roberts said. “Let the consumer drive it. If we have to make a big bet and we get it wrong … ouch.”

While Roberts added that several technologies have great potential, for the meantime, the focus will be on rolling out Comcast’s’ digital-phone product.
“I would be surprised if we don’t improve our phone results every quarter this year,” he said. “That’s the kind of goals we have set for ourselves.”

For me Mr. Roberts you have already made the wrong choice, dragging your feet is not going to cut it. Especially when I only get one HD movie channel, some local HD which I can get for free over the air and one good sports channel FSN-HD and you still charge me the same if not more for this as you do for the rest of the Bay Area. Consumer friendly ???? I guess it depends on your definetion of friendly.... not for the 550 MHz areas you're not.

Laters,
Mikef5

Mikef5

05-28-06, 05:33 PM

715 At home and in HD :D

Laters,
Mikef5

mterzich

05-28-06, 05:45 PM

I'm afraid that Davisdog is probably right about your situation but it's not any better here in the other 550 MHz areas. I just read a link provided by PaulGo and it's not looking good for any of the 550 MHz areas read it here....

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6337395.html

This is the part that really bothers me...

Comcast Corp. chairman and CEO Brian Roberts also backed off on an all-digital initiative at the nation’s largest cable operator, adding that digital simulcast -- currently available in about 80% of Comcast’s markets -- may be the more prudent way to go.

Asked if Comcast would ever get rid of the analog tier altogether or if in the future, the cable operator would always have some form of an analog tier, Roberts said that internally, company executives have debated that 20-40 analog channels would remain until at least 2011.

“It would be better if we don’t have to make the hard decisions like that,” Roberts said. “Let the consumer drive it. If we have to make a big bet and we get it wrong … ouch.”

While Roberts added that several technologies have great potential, for the meantime, the focus will be on rolling out Comcast’s’ digital-phone product.
“I would be surprised if we don’t improve our phone results every quarter this year,” he said. “That’s the kind of goals we have set for ourselves.”

For me Mr. Roberts you have already made the wrong choice, dragging your feet is not going to cut it. Especially when I only get one HD movie channel, some local HD which I can get for free over the air and one good sports channel FSN-HD and you still charge me the same if not more for this as you do for the rest of the Bay Area. Consumer friendly ???? I guess it depends on your definetion of friendly.... not for the 550 MHz areas you're not.

Laters,
Mikef5
I think the most important thing that was not said was the time frame for getting all Comcast Network Systems down to 20-40 analog channels. Although this isn't ideal, this would be a big step in freeing up space on the network (especially 550 MHz systems). If only 20 analog channels were freed up, there would be enough space to add at least another 40 HD channels.

Mikef5

05-28-06, 06:17 PM

I think the most important thing that was not said was the time frame for getting all Comcast Network Systems down to 20-40 analog channels. Although this isn't ideal, this would be a big step in freeing up space on the network (especially 550 MHz systems). If only 20 analog channels were freed up, there would be enough space to add at least another 40 HD channels.
You're right it would be a step in the right direction IF they would've given a time frame. They did say that they were going to keep analog channels pass the 2009 time frame when the networks have to drop the analog signals. That's when I think they will drop down to the 20-40 analog channels they want to keep and not anytime sooner than that. If I'm wrong then fine but I've been trying to get the 550 MHz areas upgraded since 2004, I've heard all the pie in the sky promises and we are still at almost the same place as when I started 2 years ago. How much longer should we wait ??? Another 3 years ??? I don't think so.... :rolleyes: and how disingenuous is Mr. Roberts in saying they want to keep the analog channels to be customer friendly,well, not in the case of the 550 MHz areas he's not. It's a marketing strategy to say, Look we can offer you analog signals for your old analog sets and no one else can do that for you. Well, you have digital to analog converters sitting in the warehouse that will do the same thing right now, so why not do that right now ??? Not very consumer friendly if you ask me. Well, enough for now, I'm missing the game.... :)

Laters,
Mikef5

keenan

05-28-06, 06:38 PM

Mikef5

05-28-06, 07:01 PM

It's consumer friendly to the consumers that provide the bulk of Comcast's income, sadly, HDTV customers are nowhere near the top when it comes to Comcast's revenue creating services, and now Comcast is going into providing business telephony..?

For the next 2-3 years Comcast will remain at the bottom as far as HD programming as both satcos already surpass Comcast with their HD offerings, and they are on the way to providing even more. Naturally, 550 systems will remain especially crippled when it comes to HD.

715 what? We don't even get to see the Giants in HD up here, saw a great Yankees/Royals game today in HD though. :D
You know when I wrote that 715, I thought about you and Santa Rosa and thought about saying something but couldn't do it, it's just to sad that Comcast has to treat some areas worse than others. Wish you could've seen it, it wasn't a cheapy homerun either, center field and no one caught it..... dropped into the concession area below the center field stands. Some one buying a hot dog got a very expensive ball :D

Laters,
Mikef5

fender4645

05-28-06, 07:42 PM

From a post from JWhip on a different thread (he usually has accurate info):

Look for an announcement of a new master contract between Disney and Comcast. Once that is announced, ESPN2HD should be rolled out in a number of markets with the bandwidth available shortly thereafter. I have not been advised that the master contract is finished. Should I hear more, I will post it. I know that ESPN2HD will be the next HD channel added. HDNet? I would be Shocked to see that but who knows? Comcast has been getting a lot of requests for it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7735059#post7735059

nikeykid

05-28-06, 08:00 PM

so the million dollar question is whether 550ers will have bandwidth for it or will comcast continue to give us 750ers more and the 550ers less or skip us completely.

fitprod

05-28-06, 08:01 PM

715 At home and in HD

Good thing ESPN cut into their regular programing, otherwise I couldn't have seen it live in HD...

fitprod
Bay Point, CA - Serviced by Ghettocast... I mean Comcast

millerwill

05-28-06, 08:09 PM

NickDG

05-28-06, 08:16 PM

Getting rid of the analog channels on the 550 Mhz systems will open up a TON of bandwidth. I wish Comcast would send all their analog customers a simple digital STB so we can get rid of the damn analog channels. Like someone stated before, 20 analog stations are potentially 40 HD stations.

I have had cable in the bay area for a long time, and Comcast has defineatly done a much better job than the companies in the past, but they really need to go all digital to unlock the true potential on that black coax cable we all love.

sfhub

05-29-06, 12:57 AM

You know I bet they went through the same bitching and moaning when they switched from B&W to color. Look at all the b&w sets that will be useless, why should I be forced to buy a new set, my b&w is just fine ... etc. etc. etcetera
...
The boxes for digital to analog conversion ( for people that want analog sets ) are sitting in a warehouse in the South Bay, so why don't they use them ??
Huh? Color transmission was purposely designed so it *would* be backward compatible, so why would B&W sets be useless? I'm sure there are B&W sets still in use today, probably not a whole lot, but there should be some out there. I'm sure I can dig out an old portable B&W TV I used to use for tailgaters and it will work with OTA.

Notice Luma and Chroma are purposely sent as separate data. Black and white TVs can continue to use Luma and ignore Chroma even after broadcasts switched to color. This wasn't by accident.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#Color_encoding

IMO B&W to color is competely different story than dropping analog in favor of digital. Actually it is much more akin to ADS, where older sets keep backward compatibility and newer sets get digital signal.

Using a box is a PITA for many people. You have a second device to control, 2 remotes, worry about whether your remote knows how to control the box (or the box's remote can control the TV), your VCR may not be able to control the STB, same for your TiVo or ReplayTV. Extra STBs use more power, multiplied by 2-4 boxes per home, lots of extra electricity when we have a power crunch already.

Personally I'm not against identifying a few analog channels to drop in favor of HD channels, but only as the HD channels become available and not if existing bandwidth is available.

The reality for 750/860 systems is there is enough bandwidth for at least 4 more HD channels without making any changes. Why Comcast isn't using it for TNT-HD is beyond me, and ESPN2-HD we already saw was because of contract negotiations.

550 systems is a complete different story. You guys are really out of bandwidth. I think for your systems they should just get rid of 3 analog channels immediately and give you the HD channels the rest of us have.

Something that might not be clear, is dropping analog != adding more HD. Adding more HD has many components. Bandwidth is one of them. Contract negotiations is the other. Cable/Broacast politics is a third. Many in the Bay Area have the bandwidth for more HD but we aren't getting it.

For all areas except 550, analog is unjustly the scapegoat for why we don't have more HD. The reason we don't have more HD is because Comcast hasn't gotten around to providing it to us.

As a business, I don't think Comcast should think about completely dropping analog until at least 50% of their customers are digital only homes. Comcast, should consider dropping a few analog channels in 550 areas to get them to parity with the rest of bay area though.

That's just my opinion and I'm not directing at anybody in particular either.

Mikef5

05-29-06, 01:42 AM

Huh? Color transmission was purposely designed so it *would* be backward compatible, so why would B&W sets be useless? I'm sure there are B&W sets still in use today, probably not a whole lot, but there should be some out there. I'm sure I can dig out an old portable B&W TV I used to use for tailgaters and it will work with OTA.

Notice Luma and Chroma are purposely sent as separate data. Black and white TVs can continue to use Luma and ignore Chroma even after broadcasts switched to color. This wasn't by accident.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#Color_encoding

IMO B&W to color is competely different story than dropping analog in favor of digital. Actually it is much more akin to ADS, where older sets keep backward compatibility and newer sets get digital signal.

Using a box is a PITA for many people. You have a second device to control, 2 remotes, worry about whether your remote knows how to control the box (or the box's remote can control the TV), your VCR may not be able to control the STB, same for your TiVo or ReplayTV. Extra STBs use more power, multiplied by 2-4 boxes per home, lots of extra electricity when we have a power crunch already.

Personally I'm not against identifying a few analog channels to drop in favor of HD channels, but only as the HD channels become available and not if existing bandwidth is available.

The reality for 750/860 systems is there is enough bandwidth for at least 4 more HD channels without making any changes. Why Comcast isn't using it for TNT-HD is beyond me, and ESPN2-HD we already saw was because of contract negotiations.

550 systems is a complete different story. You guys are really out of bandwidth. I think for your systems they should just get rid of 3 analog channels immediately and give you the HD channels the rest of us have.

Something that might not be clear, is dropping analog != adding more HD. Adding more HD has many components. Bandwidth is one of them. Contract negotiations is the other. Cable/Broacast politics is a third. Many in the Bay Area have the bandwidth for more HD but we aren't getting it.

For all areas except 550, analog is unjustly the scapegoat for why we don't have more HD. The reason we don't have more HD is because Comcast hasn't gotten around to providing it to us.

As a business, I don't think Comcast should think about completely dropping analog until at least 50% of their customers are digital only homes. Comcast, should consider dropping a few analog channels in 550 areas to get them to parity with the rest of bay area though.

That's just my opinion and I'm not directing at anybody in particular either.

I understand what you are saying but the fact is I remember B&W tv's and the switch to color and the networks were saying why do color when most of the sets out there are b&w, let's wait until there are more color sets sold. The customers were saying why buy a color set there isn't enough color programs and my b&w set is fine for me. So it's a catch 22 situation. So if they had their way the adaption of color tv's would have taken much longer than it did, it took good programing ( Like Bonanza ) to get people to take notice of the new technology and start buying new sets to take advantage of it. The same is happening with the switch from analog to digital. Once they see the difference in picture quality they will never go back to analog.

I'm sitting in a 550 MHz area and so are alot of people in the south bay ( and Santa Rosa ) that are being over charged for what they are recieving as compared to other areas in the Bay Area. Why is Comcast not doing anything to fix this problem ?? All they have to do is issue the digital to analog boxes to the 550 MHz areas and drop some analog channels to free up some bandwidth to get us up to the level as the rest of the bay area. It's just not that hard to do. The question is will they do it and when 3-4 years from now ???
Well, we could discuss this until the cows come home but Comcast has to step up and do the right thing and I'm not going to hold my breath.

Here's my prediction.. ESPN2 HD will be added to the rest of the Bay Area and the 550 MHz areas with get a new shop at home channel and of course our cable bill will go up just the same as the rest of the bay area. Any takers ??? :rolleyes:

Laters,
Mikef5

fender4645

05-29-06, 03:24 AM

I'm sitting in a 550 MHz area and so are alot of people in the south bay ( and Santa Rosa ) that are being over charged for what they are recieving as compared to other areas in the Bay Area. Why is Comcast not doing anything to fix this problem ?? All they have to do is issue the digital to analog boxes to the 550 MHz areas and drop some analog channels to free up some bandwidth to get us up to the level as the rest of the bay area. It's just not that hard to do. The question is will they do it and when 3-4 years from now ???
Well, we could discuss this until the cows come home but Comcast has to step up and do the right thing and I'm not going to hold my breath.

A lot of this has to do with the current state of affairs with cable TV and how Franchise Agreements are put in to place. The fact is there is absolutely no competition for Comcast. You can say that D* or Dish are competitors but the truth is they really aren't. I've been monitoring this thread for a few years now and many people have made the threats of moving to satellite and/or cancelling their Comcast subscription all together. But I would bet the majority of the people haven't because it's just too much of a hassle. Dealing with dishes, re-cabling, boxes on every TV/device...it's, for the most part, not worth the effort. Sure a few of you have switched...but I'll bet most of you haven't and probably won't. And even if you do, you still only represent a very small fraction of 550MHz population. In fact, most of your neighbors probably have no idea that they're being charged the same as other people who are getting more. Ignorance is truly bliss in this case.

I hope I'm not coming off as harsh and I'm definitely not criticizing anybody. I commend people like Keenan and Mikef5 for fighting the good battle. However when it comes down to it, Comcast is a business and we represent a very small fraction of their customer base. If it's between spending tens of millions of dollars on upgrades and equipment vs. losing a few customers, they're going to go with the latter. It's the same way for any business. Now if a competitor comes along and does a big marketing push to let the masses know what they're missing then you might see some movement from Comcast. But until the issues with Cable Franchise Agreements are reformed, I just don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

keenan

05-29-06, 05:01 AM

It's all about the money, or the lack thereof when it comes to HD programming. Since Comcast does not charge for an HD tier the argument can be made that 550 systems are not paying more than 750-860 systems, it's just that those systems are getting more HD programming "free".

Cable companies are struggling with exactly how to market HD programming, do they charge nothing above the current rate as they are now, do they charge per channel or do they charge using a tier like structure per sets of channels. There's a good article at the following link about HD and the bandwidth crunch. A few excepts are below.

http://www.cedmagazine.com/article/CA6319823.html
The Big Squeeze - 4/1/2006 - CED - CA6319823

"The business decision is either carry less HD or drop analog channels. The key is new technology and the different options like switched broadcast, new encoding, rate shaping and [node] splits, with upgrades not being an option. Now, there's no separating the business from the technology issues," Kashore maintains.

The HD business model's most important component, however, is revenue, and is an integral part of any operator-vendor discussion. "Operators are struggling with how to make money with HD programming. It takes up more room, but there's no way to monetize the bandwidth expansion tier. The idea is for a big HD tier and change the pricing. But so far, we haven't seen a revenue model," says Jeff Fryling, vice president of corporate development for Vyyo Inc.

Support, however, must come in the form of a working business model as well. Adds Morrow: "The challenge is to provide a 'demand-mapped investment' and provide capacity to enable operators to earn on capital. So, our focus is on offering complete advanced coding, closed loop encoding and other platforms."

The whole article is a good read.

fender4645

05-29-06, 03:52 PM

That is a great article...some really good points are made. It's interesting that Comcast isn't even mentioned in the article yet they are the biggest MSO in the US. While they don't go into specifics, they do say that all MSO's are feeling the bandwidth crunch and are employing a number of different "short term" strategies to squeeze out as much bandwidth as possible. They conclude that the only viable long-term solution is better compression codecs and to move away from MPEG-2 as quickly as possible. They do talk about switched broadcasting too. Does anyone know if Comcast has talked about using this technology?

keenan

05-29-06, 04:26 PM

They do talk about switched broadcasting too. Does anyone know if Comcast has talked about using this technology?
They probably have although I don't recall ever reading about Comcast specifically. One thing I think was noted in the article is that switched broadcast works better, or needs, small node numbers, around 300-500 I think, anyway, Santa Rosa has about 1500 homes per node so I'm not sure SB would work here.

masoo

05-29-06, 10:38 PM

Here's my prediction.. ESPN2 HD will be added to the rest of the Bay Area

And I'll add: it won't happen until after the World Cup, and they won't do the Olympic thing where they add ESPN2 HD for the month of the event.

keenan

05-29-06, 11:13 PM

Anybody watch the Pistons/Heat game and see a blurring/focus problem? It happens when the sideline camera moves to the half-court, it was doing it last year as well which is depressing because it means nobody's been paying attention at KGO.

Mikef5

05-29-06, 11:19 PM

heyjjjaded

05-30-06, 12:17 AM

Did anybody get the A's game on FSN HD tonight (Monday night)? I'm in Solano/Sacramento area and Comcast didn't switch away from INHD2 here.

fender4645

05-30-06, 01:19 AM

Did anybody get the A's game on FSN HD tonight (Monday night)? I'm in Solano/Sacramento area and Comcast didn't switch away from INHD2 here.

The game (if that's what you can call it) was in HD here in Moraga.

Mikef5

05-30-06, 12:17 PM

Omen of things to come ???

I was just on the Comcast web site to check on pricing for Digital Classic and noticed that the "Video on Demand coming to the South Bay soon" is no longer there and is not in the available services section of the web site. So is it never coming to the South Bay ( SaraMilGatos areas ) or is it coming ?? My take is they removed it because it is not ever coming to the 550 MHz areas and they removed it so people would not notice that they are missing a major service that the rest of the Bay Area already gets and that they advertise heavily. Nice to be treated again like a red headed step child. :(

Laters,
Mikef5

russwong

05-30-06, 12:55 PM

I have a number of reasons I like analog.

My Tivo's and Media center dvrs can tune analog easier for recording purposes.
I still have analog tv's because there isn't a digital tv that I like better then my Sony XBR WEGA CRT at this point for HD content. (I'm hoping SED comes sooner then later.)
I don't like all these remotes and when my parents want to watch tv and don't understand that the cable box has to be on and the tv has to be on, it's qiute a pain. (Yes, I explain that the All On button turns both of them on, but sometimes it just doesn't work right.)
Analog tunes much faster when you are just channel surfing.
Most importantly, I pay for basic cable, but because all these other channels are on analog, I get them still...

So I'm all for getting rid of useless channels to make more room, but I'd also like to keep analog, because it's just not worth an extra $50 a month to go to digital classic for more stations I don't watch.

All of this is kind of ironic, since I also have a media center which records 3 unencrypted QAM HD feeds at a time.

keenan

05-30-06, 01:11 PM

Mikef5

05-30-06, 01:21 PM

They need the room for more Jewelry TV-like channels or some other channel Comcast probably owns a piece of or gets paid to carry.
What they put in it's place is an ad for The International Channels, which are already on my cable in Milpitas but I looked at the bottom of the web page and this disclaimer was there...... These channels are currently not available in Los Gatos, Monte Sereno, Saratoga and Sunnyvale. Limited program offerings are available in Milpitas. Call 1-800-COMCAST for more information.
It just keeps getting better all the time :rolleyes:

Laters,
Mikef5

Mikef5

05-30-06, 02:18 PM

Russ,
Let me address your concerns individually,

My Tivo's and Media center dvrs can tune analog easier for recording purposes.How can you judge digital tuning to analog tuning you said you don't have an HD set ?? I do and I can tell you there is no difference and if you have a difference it's a problem with the set or tuner and not because the signal is digital.
I still have analog tv's because there isn't a digital tv that I like better then my Sony XBR WEGA CRT at this point for HD content. (I'm hoping SED comes sooner then later.)When was the last time you looked at digital sets ?? Sony makes a great digital set at a reasonable price, I know one of my HD's is a Sony. If you are waiting for SED to become available, I bet Comcast will upgrade the 550 MHz areas before you see SED sets. That's not to say the technology is bad it's just way in the future.
I don't like all these remotes and when my parents want to watch tv and don't understand that the cable box has to be on and the tv has to be on, it's qiute a pain. (Yes, I explain that the All On button turns both of them on, but sometimes it just doesn't work right.) I don't know what to tell you some people find simple things hard to understand, my mother has the same problem with the remotes, but with a good remote you can get everything to be on a single remote
Analog tunes much faster when you are just channel surfing.No it doesn't , it depends again on your tuner or tv set and you can't compare what you don't have and your computer set up doesn't count because they have to many things going on other than displaying tv signals which affect their ablility to do tv effectively.
Most importantly, I pay for basic cable, but because all these other channels are on analog, I get them still...
That's what bothered me the most. Do you know that if they go all digital you will still get all the same channels you now get by analog with no increase in price ??? The basic tier will remain the same it will just be digital rather than analog. The only thing you will need a box for are the premium channels or those that are now encrypted.

I hope you understand that most of your concerns are unfounded or are not fixable no matter if the signal is digital or not, like your remote problem.

Laters,
Mikef5

nikeykid

05-30-06, 02:40 PM

mike is right. there is no upside to keeping analog. the only caveat are all these old tvs need cheap qam tuners.

Mikef5

05-30-06, 04:11 PM

Anyone not getting 705, CBS ??? Picture just freezes ......

Laters,
Mikef5

greeno

05-30-06, 04:16 PM

I have an issue not covered above in the analog versus digital posts above. I have a PII box (6412) and the digital channels look bad contrary to the posts that say pq has improved dramatically in some areas. I tried to watch amc last night on digital (and I've tried some other channels also recently) and it was soft, had false contouring and macroblocking in dark scenes. (my display is a properly calibrated (geometry, color and grayscale) mits crt-based rptv). I even noticed some odd fixed vertical stripes 1/4in apart pretty much covering the entire screen. These show up in the analog broadcast also.

the analog broadcast was better, but showed pixelation during explosions that I have never seen before on an analog broadcast. this is what bit-starved digital broadcasts do.

My concerns are, IMO, what really matters - the pq. HD looks good generally, but on nbc, I'm seeing artifacts from their adaptive muxing (I think that's the correct term - they change the bitrate based on demands of the image). It looks to be about half a second too slow to up the bit rate.

Do I need to grab a PIII box because it deals with the digital broadcast better? Is my display just too big to give decent pq (it's a 73'' 16:9)?
Best,
jeff

Mikef5

05-30-06, 04:18 PM

Mikef5

05-30-06, 04:29 PM

Greeno,
About your problem. How are you hooked up ?? HDMI, component ??? Is Livermore doing digital simulcasting ?? If so, you aren't seeing analog channels, it is probably switching to the digital channel. Digital simulcasting presses the bandwidth requirements even in 750 MHz and above systems, so you are seeing macro blocking due to bandwidth limits being hit, sort of like what happens in the slums of the 550 MHz areas. You might try a new box, some are better than others but I'm pretty sure it's a bandwidth problem.

Laters,
Mikef5

sfhub

05-30-06, 05:44 PM

the analog broadcast was better, but showed pixelation during explosions that I have never seen before on an analog broadcast. this is what bit-starved digital broadcasts do.
...
Do I need to grab a PIII box because it deals with the digital broadcast better? Is my display just too big to give decent pq (it's a 73'' 16:9)?
I would get a PIII box because it deals with analog much better. The 6412 internally converts analog to mpg before displaying. It's just how it is designed. They improved the encoder in the PIII box. There are 2 classes of SD digital on Comcast now, the original digital cable channels, and the digital simulcast channels. The digital simulcast channels are in general better than the digital cable channels because they use a decent bit rate and pixel frame. Many of the digital cable channels look soft and pixelate quite a bit. In my experience, the digital simulcast looks comparable to the analog channels, just with less noise (that's using an internal QAM tuner) I would still give the edge to analog if you have a decent analog signal coming in. If you analog signal is crap, then the digital simulcast will blow it away.

As you implied, your display is large enough that you will be more sensitive to artifacts than others with smaller screens so it may be that you will just have to live with the artifacts on the non-HD channels.

greeno

05-30-06, 06:01 PM

I'm hooked up via component (that's all my display's got :-().
I'm not sure if livermore's simulcasting. That's sort of what I was also wondering since I'd heard that people in areas where they were simulcasting thought the pq had improved considerable.

when I was a/b'ing I would tune to box to the appropriate analog channel (47 in the above e.g.) then tune the NTSC tuner (in the display) to 47 and switch back and forth. box 47 stinks and ntsc 47 is better and looks the same as it always has. (except on ntsc 47 I noted pixelation that I've *never* seen on an ntsc broadcast before - only on a digital one featuring lots of fast action or bright explosions).

Anyone know if livermore is DS (digital simulcasting) yet? It might not hurt to just get the PIII box. Anyone know if the PIII also have the slow/sluggish remote response issue like the PII's have?

Best,
jeff

Mikef5

05-30-06, 06:23 PM

fender4645

05-30-06, 06:25 PM

If DS is available in your area then you may only be able to get a 3412. In my area (which is on the Martinez head end) they don't offer any more 6412's...only 3412's.

Mikef5

05-30-06, 06:42 PM

If DS is available in your area then you may only be able to get a 3412. In my area (which is on the Martinez head end) they don't offer any more 6412's...only 3412's.
So in digital simulcasting you have both analog and digital channels and digital channels that mirror the analog channels. The 3412 has no analog tuner, so why have analog signals for that area ?? For people that have analog sets ??? They can't get anything but basic cable without a box, but there is no analog tuner in the 3412's. You see the delima ?? The 3412's should be used in an all digital system unless you can get a box that will get the simulcasted analog signal like the 6412. You might be fine with a 3412 but what about people that need an analog tuner box that will allow them to get premium channels ??? If they can't get a 6412 they're out of luck. So how does that work in your area ??

Laters,
Mikef5

nikeykid

05-30-06, 06:45 PM

Mikef5

05-30-06, 06:51 PM

a poster in programming forum in oregon is reporting that his area will be getting half a dozen HD channels within a month. wow imagine that here. well ok fantasy over. but maybe its good news this was reported on the west coast.
Nikeykid,
Would you provide a link ??? If you are talking about Walter L. from Oregon, he's talking about Dish adding more HD. Just wondering... :)

Laters,
Mikef5

nikeykid

05-30-06, 06:56 PM

almost gave me a heart attack, its comcast

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=682919

fender4645

05-30-06, 06:57 PM

So in digital simulcasting you have both analog and digital channels and digital channels that mirror the analog channels. The 3412 has no analog tuner, so why have analog signals for that area ?? For people that have analog sets ??? They can't get anything but basic cable without a box, but there is no analog tuner in the 3412's. You see the delima ?? The 3412's should be used in an all digital system unless you can get a box that will get the simulcasted analog signal like the 6412. You might be fine with a 3412 but what about people that need an analog tuner box that will allow them to get premium channels ??? If they can't get a 6412 they're out of luck. So how does that work in your area ??

Laters,
Mikef5

I'm not sure if I understand your statement/dilema? Yes, they still have to support those who have analog sets/devices who do not rent an STB. Comcast for a while has been trying to get people to switch over to digital, hence the reason why they moved all premium channels and PPV (which is now essentially OnDemand) to digital only. Are you saying there are still premium channels (i.e. HBO, Showtime, etc.) on the analog spectrum in your area? Or when you say "premium", do you mean the "Expanded Basic" lineup?

Mikef5

05-30-06, 06:58 PM

NikeyKid,
I found the posters message and all I can say is it's just a tech telling him. I've gone to the Comcast office here and they keep telling me that the 550 MHz areas are going to be upgraded any time now and we all know that's not going to happen. But if it does then that's good news for the rest of the Bay Area but blows big bubbles for the 550 MHz areas.

Laters,
Mikef5

nikeykid

05-30-06, 07:00 PM

well the tech was pretty specific about OLN..... as i pointed out, if comcast were to add any HD channel, it would be OLN first. i can't believe i'd be happy if i got OLN anything.

Mikef5

05-30-06, 07:07 PM

I'm not sure if I understand your statement/dilema? Yes, they still have to support those who have analog sets/devices who do not rent an STB. Comcast for a while has been trying to get people to switch over to digital, hence the reason why they moved all premium channels and PPV (which is now essentially OnDemand) to digital only. Are you saying there are still premium channels (i.e. HBO, Showtime, etc.) on the analog spectrum in your area? Or when you say "premium", do you mean the "Expanded Basic" lineup?
What I'm getting at is that they are keeping the analog for what ?? People that have basic cable and don't what to upgrade to digital? Basic cable is what 15 dollars a month ?? Are there that many people that are analog only and don't want to upgrade to digital to keep analog ?? To get anything else you need a box, if you need a box then go all digital like with the 3412. There can't be that many people that are analog only. The big seller is the premium channels, video on demand, etc. not $15 a month customers. Do you sense my frustration ??? :)

Laters,
Mikef5

keenan

05-30-06, 07:16 PM

There can't be that many people that are analog only. T

Laters,
Mikef5
More than any other type of sub. Basic cable subs make up around 50%, maybe more, of Comcast's total subscriber counts.

fender4645

05-30-06, 07:22 PM

What I'm getting at is that they are keeping the analog of what ?? People that have basic cable and don't what to upgrade to digital? Basic cable is what 15 dollars a month ?? Are there that many people that are analog only and don't want to upgrade to digital to keep analog ?? To get anything else you need a box, if you need a box then go all digital like with the 3412. There can't be that many people that are analog only. The big seller is the premium channels, video on demand, etc. not $15 a month customers. Do you sense my frustration ??? :)

Laters,
Mikef5

I absolutely hear you and agree 100%. I would love nothing more then for them to clean house and get rid of all analog channels. However, my guess is there would be a huge backlash if all of a sudden Comcast made everyone get STB's. People like us knowingly and willingly rent the STB from Comcast to serve our specific purposes (DVR, OnDemand, PPV, etc.). However there are still a good number of people who all they want to do is sit back and watch My Three Sons on Nickelodeon. I don't know the exact number by I know a number of people who don't subscribe to digital plans. Plus there's the cost. Comcast could either charge everyone the rental fee (which would be a HUGE mistake) or foot the bill for giving everyone STB's. This is probably why Comcast plans on keeping around some of the analog channels even after the switchover date.

nikeykid

05-30-06, 07:23 PM

More than any other type of sub. Basic cable subs make up around 50%, maybe more, of Comcast's total subscriber counts.

i myself used to think paying more than 30 bucks a month for cable would be sacrilegious. sigh those were the days. there are still many people that would be really really angry if they were "coerced" upgrade to a digital package. what comcast should do is lower the price of the lowest digital package... significantly!

Mikef5

05-30-06, 07:24 PM

More than any other type of sub. Basic cable subs make up around 50%, maybe more, of Comcast's total subscriber counts.
So why go digital at all, let's just stay analog. God, I just heard a Comcast commerical just now extolling how great their digital cable is, talk about timing..... :) Now I just have to wait for the commercial about video on demand and my day will be complete. :rolleyes:

Laters.
Mikef5

nikeykid

05-30-06, 07:27 PM

So why go digital at all, let's just stay analog. God, I just heard a Comcast commerical just now extolling how great their digital cable is, talk about timing..... :) Now I just have to wait for the commercial about video on demand and my day will be complete. :rolleyes:

Laters.
Mikef5

mike, don't you like the SLOWSKY tortoise commercials?? man that makes me want to spend twice as much for cable internet as opposed to at&t dsl.

Mikef5

05-30-06, 07:34 PM

I absolutely hear you and agree 100%. I would love nothing more then for them to clean house and get rid of all analog channels. However, my guess is there would be a huge backlash if all of a sudden Comcast made everyone get STB's. People like us knowingly and willingly rent the STB from Comcast to serve our specific purposes (DVR, OnDemand, PPV, etc.). However there are still a good number of people who all they want to do is sit back and watch My Three Sons on Nickelodeon. I don't know the exact number by I know a number of people who don't subscribe to digital plans. Plus there's the cost. Comcast could either charge everyone the rental fee (which would be a HUGE mistake) or foot the bill for giving everyone STB's. This is probably why Comcast plans on keeping around some of the analog channels even after the switchover date.
Fender,
My rant is to Comcast, you have good points but I'm sitting in a 550 MHz area and being limited by these bandwidth wasting analog channels and paying $136 dollars a month for what, to keep analog channels which means we'll never get any additional programing because they don't want to pi** off some poor analog subscriber. I'm sorry that's poor business sense to lose customers that pay alot more than just for basic service. It's good that Bonds hit those home runs so I can schedule my Dish install earlier that I had planned on.

Laters,
Mikef5

Mikef5

05-30-06, 08:01 PM

mike, don't you like the SLOWSKY tortoise commercials?? man that makes me want to spend twice as much for cable internet as opposed to at&t dsl.
I have this great urge for turtle soup right now..... :D

Laters,
Mikef5

jgiants

05-30-06, 08:24 PM

Fender,
My rant is to Comcast, you have good points but I'm sitting in a 550 MHz area and being limited by these bandwidth wasting analog channels and paying $136 dollars a month for what, to keep analog channels which means we'll never get any additional programing because they don't want to pi** off some poor analog subscriber. I'm sorry that's poor business sense to lose customers that pay alot more than just for basic service. It's good that Bonds hit those home runs so I can schedule my Dish install earlier that I had planned on.

Laters,
Mikef5

They could easily tinker with a few analog stations in our 550mhz areas and fit a few more important HD chans in.

Its just that I bet the number of customers who care is small.

If a knew antioch was going to be on a antique system when I moved here I would have got a house in brentwood instead maybe lol.

Around a mile or so away from me they are all living the 860mhz life(or maybe its 750 there not sure)

BTW how much bandwith is needed for VOD anyways?

keenan

05-30-06, 08:28 PM

So why go digital at all, let's just stay analog.
Mikef5
They are staying analog, at least 20-30 channels will be around for a long time. :p

You have to look at the cost. Comcast stated that they would need around 20 million STBs to provide to analog only customers, customers that are only generating about $20 a month in fees. They have to balance that cost with the cost of HD, which currently isn't really making them a dime. It sucks but it's a business and I'm certainly not happy about it, but there isn't really a lot that can be done.

How's this for getting the blood pressure up...from a poster in Illinois in the 6412 thread,

Yep, same here. There are no additional $5 fees on my bill. My total bill is $26. $16 for basic service + $10 DVR fee.

fender4645

05-30-06, 08:28 PM

Fender,
My rant is to Comcast, you have good points but I'm sitting in a 550 MHz area and being limited by these bandwidth wasting analog channels and paying $136 dollars a month for what, to keep analog channels which means we'll never get any additional programing because they don't want to pi** off some poor analog subscriber. I'm sorry that's poor business sense to lose customers that pay alot more than just for basic service. It's good that Bonds hit those home runs so I can schedule my Dish install earlier that I had planned on.

Laters,
Mikef5

No need to explain...I can only imagine where you and the other 550ers are coming from. My frustrations (and posts) would be right up there with yours if I was in the same position. Hopefully Comcast can come up with something for the bandwidth-starved areas soon...we'll sure miss your posts here. :D

keenan

05-30-06, 08:40 PM

No need to explain...I can only imagine where you and the other 550ers are coming from. My frustrations (and posts) would be right up there with yours if I was in the same position. Hopefully Comcast can come up with something for the bandwidth-starved areas soon...we'll sure miss your posts here. :D
Dropping the excessive programming requirement to have the DVR is one thing they could do, of course that will never happen, here in the bay area anyway, they do have lower requirements elsewhere, but of course we're wealthy here so they stick it to us.

If the below gets passed, HD PQ will turn to crap anyway due to MC/MC so I'm starting to care less and less what Comcast does and starting to look forward to TV on HD-DVD and BD.

From the HOTP thread

Washington Notebook
FCC’s Martin Preparing Must-Carry Push

New Republican Majority Boosts Agency Chief's Clout
By Doug Halonen TVWeek.com May 30, 2006

Cable TV operators would be required to carry all of the programming streams from digital broadcast TV channels under a new proposal that is being circulated at the agency by Federal Communications Commission Chairman Kevin Martin, FCC and industry officials said Tuesday.

In addition, Mr. Martin has told his fellow commissioners that he plans to launch a separate proceeding soon to determine whether to further relax agency media ownership rules, the sources said.

Last year the FCC, under then-Chairman Michael Powell, rejected a proposal that would have forced cable providers to carry the multiple broadcast programming streams. But Mr. Martin, who cast the sole dissenting vote at the time, told reporters earlier this year that he would try to overturn the Powell-era decision if he thought he could win the support of a majority of the agency's commissioners.

Two of the commissioners who voted against the rule during Powell's chairmanship-Democrats Michael Copps and Jonathan Adelstein-are still at the agency.

Since the 2005 vote, one new commissioner, Republican Deborah Taylor Tate, has joined the agency. Robert McDowell, another Republican, received Senate confirmation for a third Republican seat late last week and is expected to officially join the agency as soon as this week. The new lineup offers Mr. Martin the possibility of a 3-2 majority.

With a Republican FCC majority coming into line, Mr. Martin is also planning to launch proceedings as soon as next month to determine how the agency should respond to a 2004 decision by the U.S. Court of Appeals in Philadelphia that threw out a Powell-era effort by the FCC's Republicans to loosen rules that bar owners of daily newspapers from buying broadcast stations in their markets and limit how many stations a company can own in an area.

Mr. Martin tried to get the ball rolling against the media ownership restrictions last year but dropped the effort because he couldn't reach a consensus at the agency-deadlocked politically with two Republicans and two Democrats-on how to proceed.

http://www.tvweek.com/news.cms?newsId=10094

Mikef5

05-30-06, 08:52 PM

fender4645

05-30-06, 08:58 PM

Mikef5

05-30-06, 09:06 PM

keenan

05-30-06, 09:22 PM

Keenan,
You made my day, they can't put those must carrys on our system, there's no room :p Unless they, heaven forbid, get rid of some analog channels.... :D
Well, back to watching the Giants losing in SD.... losing is so much better when it's in HD :)

Laters,
Mikef5
Sure they can, that 6Mhz that holds two 19mbps HD channels will also hold 2 or more reduced bandwidth HD channels and all of of stations sub-channels. Comcast can only carry what the station gives them and if the station is using it's 19Mbps for one main HD channel and a couple of SD sub-channels that's what Comcast will have to carry all squeezed in to 3Mhz/19Mbps 256QAM slot.

Theoretically, a station could provide cable with higher quality signals because cable is not governed by the ATSC OTA standards but I really don't see that happening.

keenan

05-30-06, 09:25 PM

I just don't get it. Why force this? It almost seems like the FCC needs to do something drastic like this to justify their existence. In a perfect world, I would love to see non-broadcast channels carry good enough quality television where I won't have to deal with broadcast TV and the FCC tyranny that comes with it (by quality I mean content, not picture). It's definitely gotten better over the years with channels like HBO and FX coming out with some really good shows. Let's hope that continues.
Yes it has, cable-only channels have been gaining on OTA broadcasters for years now. The big ad dollars are still with OTA but cable-only is gaining.

Why force it? Because Congress and the FCC screwed up years back by not setting limits and rules on how that 6Mhz of digital spectrum could be used. Now that the broadcasters have discovered their new toy, sub-channels, they want to use them and make cable carry them. If nobody watches them(not carried by cable) then they're not worth anything as OTA viewership numbers do not pay the bills.

Mikef5

05-30-06, 09:29 PM

Sure they can, that 6Mhz that holds two 19mbps HD channels will also hold 2 or more reduced bandwidth HD channels and all of of stations sub-channels. Comcast can only carry what the station gives them and if the station is using it's 19Mbps for one main HD channel and a couple of SD sub-channels that's what Comcast will have to carry all squeezed in to 3Mhz/19Mbps 256QAM slot.

Theoretically, a station could provide cable with higher quality signals because cable is not governed by the ATSC OTA standards but I really don't see that happening.
Darn, I forgot to put the sarcasm note in that last message. I was being facetious. I know Comcast will cram them in if at all possible. :)

Laters,
Mikef5

mterzich

05-30-06, 09:54 PM

ercp1

05-30-06, 10:04 PM

nikeykid

05-30-06, 10:22 PM

I just switched to comcast from DTV because, thanks to this great forum, I learned all about the evils of DTV's HD lite. I love the PQ of HD on comcast but the PQ on SD has been abominable. It's so bad that I'm considering swallowing my pride and going back to DTV, paying the $250 premium for the HD Tivo.

I'm using the Moto 3412 DVR (which, after using Ultimate TV for 3 years, seems like going back to the stone age) into my new Vizio 37 LCD with composite cables. Any advice greatly appreciated!

advice i can think of:

- stop watching analog, at least on ur 3412. i only watch analog on my old tvs, and only watch SD programs on digital channels where available... (410 opposed to 77, 702 opposed to 2)...

- relief should be coming very soon with ADS... you'll be able to watch ur analog channels in a digital form

-d* (not dtv) is abominable. really abominable. hdlite makes me want to scream everytime i see it at a local retailer trying to show off hdtv. luckily the local frys here uses comcast :)

sfhub

05-30-06, 10:33 PM

sfhub

05-30-06, 10:37 PM

Fender,
My rant is to Comcast, you have good points but I'm sitting in a 550 MHz area and being limited by these bandwidth wasting analog channels and paying $136 dollars a month for what, to keep analog channels which means we'll never get any additional programing because they don't want to pi** off some poor analog subscriber. I'm sorry that's poor business sense to lose customers that pay alot more than just for basic service.
My strong suspicion (in the short term) is if Comcast dumped analog completely and forced every analog user to use an STB there would be *more* customer losses to Dish and D* than if they did the simulcast thing and slowly phased in more digital by selectively pruning analog.

Ironically, I think as long as people are voicing their displeasure with 550 on this thread, Comcast (in their mind) has struck the right balance between analog and digital from a business perspective, because people who complain, most likley haven't left. If they made no improvement and people stopped complaining, then they would have to worry, because people who leave Comcast tend to stop complaining about Comcast.

Mikef5

05-30-06, 10:57 PM

Mikef5,

Have you ever approached your city council about the 550 MHz issue? Maybe there is someway that the city can apply preasure on Comcast to either upgrade the cable system to 750 MHz or at least quickly reduce the number of analog channels to free up space for some HD channels.
Yep, been there, done that. The franchise board is more interested in getting the new government access studio that Comcast helped them set up, up and running. As a matter of fact one of the Franchise Board memebers is also a member of this forum but has been missing in action for a while so I don't hold out much hope for that.

Laters,
Mikef5

Mikef5

05-30-06, 11:12 PM

Basic cable is something like $15, but Expanded Basic, also analog, is around $50. Probably the bulk of subscribers are still in the Expanded Basic service tier. Even as a digital subscriber, you are technically an expanded basic customer paying $10+ for your digital package on top of expanded basic.

Basically almost every TiVo user is an analog user. Many people with digital or HD digital capabilities have secondary TVs which use analog. Analog is simply much larger than you would think, especially if you've already been all digital in your home for a long time.
Well, if that's true then they are getting screwed. Here's what I just did. I unplugged the cable to the box, I connected the cable to my NTSC tuner and I get all the channels from 2 through 74. There is nothing stopping me from doing that, they don't use line filters any more, the box talks to the computer at Comcast to see what channels you are authorized to get. With no box and just an analog tuner you get the basic cable and expanded to channel 74, all for $13 a month. Try it.

Laters,
Mikef5

sfhub

05-30-06, 11:24 PM

Well, if that's true then they are getting screwed. Here's what I just did. I unplugged the cable to the box, I connected the cable to my NTSC tuner and I get all the channels from 2 through 74. There is nothing stopping me from doing that, they don't use line filters any more, the box talks to the computer at Comcast to see what channels you are authorized to get. With no box and just an analog tuner you get the basic cable and expanded to channel 74, all for $13 a month. Try it.
They actually do use filters. They've been using them for a long time and still do. If a particular home pays $13/month and doesn't have one installed it is a mistake on Comcast's part and the beneficiary should count their blessings, and you are right, it is a great price :)

There are basically 2 analog tiers, limited basic and expanded basic. Expanded basic get filters in their install, limited basic does not. Digital tier gets the channel authorization from Comcast over the coax.

I don't think your home is a good example though, as you are in the > $100 tier and you are paying for expanded basic (see your bill)

sfhub

05-30-06, 11:42 PM

BTW how much bandwith is needed for VOD anyways?
My area allocates 4 x 6MHz channels for VOD usage.

Move the shopping channels HSN and QVC to digital and combine WB and UPN into CW and 550 folks should have their missing HD channels.

Move government access to digital and 550 will have their VOD also.

fender4645

05-30-06, 11:53 PM

Move the shopping channels HSN and QVC to digital and combine WB and UPN into CW and 550 folks should have their missing HD channels.

I have absolutely no evidence to back this up but I would bet the same people that watch/use QVC and HSN are the same people who do NOT pay for digital cable.

kevini

05-30-06, 11:58 PM

Combine WB and UPN into CW

The networks are combining but the Broadcast channel TV20 (KBWB) is not shutting down. Must carry means that Comcast have to carry it regardless of the network.

We definitely won't be loosing that channel.....

Kevin

sfhub

05-31-06, 12:04 AM

I have absolutely no evidence to back this up but I would bet the same people that watch/use QVC and HSN are the same people who do NOT pay for digital cable.
So send the QVC/HSN folks a DCT-700 or pick another analog channel to prune :)

Mikef5

05-31-06, 12:05 AM

My area allocates 4 x 6MHz channels for VOD usage.

Move the shopping channels HSN and QVC to digital and combine WB and UPN into CW and 550 folks should have their missing HD channels.

Move government access to digital and 550 will have their VOD also.
Please tell me you work for Comcast in upper management. I've been trying for years to get them to shuffle some analog channels to digital to free up bandwidth and I keep getting " No can do ".
I'll check for filters, my brother worked for TCI and AT&T as an installer and QA, heck, I'll just have him look for them. :)

Laters,
Mikef5

Mikef5

05-31-06, 12:08 AM

I have absolutely no evidence to back this up but I would bet the same people that watch/use QVC and HSN are the same people who do NOT pay for digital cable.
So they put the new Jewlery TV on channel 410, which is digital, they can do it for the rest if they wanted to, but I'm sure the excuse will be, can't do it because of contract agreement.

Laters,
Mikef5

keenan

05-31-06, 12:32 AM

My area allocates 4 x 6MHz channels for VOD usage.

Cripes, such extravagant waste, room for 8 HD channels, man, life is good at the top eh? :p

fender4645

05-31-06, 12:35 AM

So they put the new Jewlery TV on channel 410, which is digital, they can do it for the rest if they wanted to, but I'm sure the excuse will be, can't do it because of contract agreement.

Laters,
Mikef5

That's a good point. I wonder if that could be Comcast's short-term plans...to move as much as they can to the digital tier. They could do it when a carriage agreement is up for renewal. It would make sense that they couldn't speak publicly about this since it involves contracts. Because Comcast pays networks on a per-user basis, the network would stand to lose money if their channel was moved to a digital tier. This, of course, could save Comcast money and bandwidth.

keenan

05-31-06, 12:43 AM

I'll check for filters, my brother worked for TCI and AT&T as an installer and QA, heck, I'll just have him look for them. :)

Laters,
Mikef5
I must be missing your point. The reason you're getting those 2-74 is because you're paying for them. If you canceled everything but Basic you wouldn't get all those 2-74, you would likely get about 30 channels, or whatever is in your Basic package channel lineup, and there would be a filter on your line. When I went from Basic to a digital package I watched the tech take the filter off the line.

Mikef5

05-31-06, 12:55 AM

I must be missing your point. The reason you're getting those 2-74 is because you're paying for them. If you canceled everything but Basic you wouldn't get all those 2-74, you would likely get about 30 channels, or whatever is in your Basic package channel lineup, and there would be a filter on your line. When I went from Basic to a digital package I watched the tech take the filter off the line.
Well, you might be right. I've been with cable since the TCI days and the only thing that's been changed was the drop line to the house. I asked about filters and he told me they don't use them any more not that they weren't on my line but he could have been wrong. We'll find out when I down grade my cable package and see if they come out or not.

Laters,
Mikef5

fender4645

05-31-06, 01:19 AM

Well, you might be right. I've been with cable since the TCI days and the only thing that's been changed was the drop line to the house. I asked about filters and he told me they don't use them any more not that they weren't on my line but he could have been wrong. We'll find out when I down grade my cable package and see if they come out or not.

Laters,
Mikef5

If I remember correctly, AT&T and Comcast started taking off the filters because they were causing major degradation in signal strength. When I lived in a condo 3 years ago, a Comcast tech came out and removed all the filters in the complex.

jgiants

05-31-06, 01:20 AM

My area allocates 4 x 6MHz channels for VOD usage.

Move the shopping channels HSN and QVC to digital and combine WB and UPN into CW and 550 folks should have their missing HD channels.

Move government access to digital and 550 will have their VOD also.

Heck here in antioch just droping or moving the sacramento locals would free up bandwith. Comcast here has about 4 or 5 analog sacramento stations here and of course has all the sf ones also.

Basicly the ones who would like to see vod and more hd are I guess not enough people for them to even go outa their way to bother making some analog changes anytime soon.

garypen

05-31-06, 02:31 AM

Some general Bay Area Comcast questions:
1. When is ADS gonna arrive? I'm sick of the crappy PQ on the analog channels.
2. My 6412 PII is acting up. I plan on swapping it for a new one. Should I shoot for a PIII, or stick with a PII?
3. Is there a new 160GB DVR (6416) available or soon-to-be available in SJ? Or, is it a FIOS-only model?

fender4645

05-31-06, 02:50 AM

1. When is ADS gonna arrive? I'm sick of the crappy PQ on the analog channels.
It all depends on the area you live in. If possible, go by or call a local Comcast store and see if you can get a 3412. If you can then your area has ADS.

2. My 6412 PII is acting up. I plan on swapping it for a new one. Should I shoot for a PIII, or stick with a PII?
If you can't get a 3412 then go for the Phase III 6412...they are supposed to have better analog tuners.

3. Is there a new 160GB DVR (6416) available or soon-to-be available in SJ? Or, is it a FIOS-only model?
A few Comcast areas have 6416's but none of them are in the Bay Area.

sfhub

05-31-06, 09:24 AM

Because Comcast pays networks on a per-user basis, the network would stand to lose money if their channel was moved to a digital tier. This, of course, could save Comcast money and bandwidth.
Not a response to your post, more of a comment on extrapolating whether analog users are a significant customer base.

If the assertion that analog cable users are very few and far between is true, then networks shouldn't care that much whether they are analog, digital, or both.

However, if there are still significant #s of analog cable users then the network would care.

All I've heard has pointed to the latter.

sfhub

05-31-06, 09:50 AM

I've been trying for years to get them to shuffle some analog channels to digital to free up bandwidth and I keep getting " No can do ".
Speaking of parity between 550 and 750/860, I was just looking over SaraMilGatos(550) and it seems they have nicer analog lineup than some of the rest of us in 750/860. In particular SciFi and Bravo are on analog where many other areas have these moved to digital tier. I think some 750/860 still have them on analog so it isn't 100%.

So if Comcast just shifted the "extra" analog channels the SaraMilGatos folks are getting to digital then they could add 4 of the HD channels they are missing:

704 KRON-(IND)
719 INHD - 1
720 INHD - 2
732 Cinemax - HD
734 Starz! - HD
736 Showtime - HD

Personally I think KRON is useless after the first week, so really you guys are only missing 5 channels.

If the assertion that analog isn't a big deal is true, few people in 550 should complain, and clearly Comcast is able to move those 2 channels to digital in other areas, so some contract should be possible that allows for them to move to digital.

keenan

05-31-06, 10:26 AM

Personally I think KRON is useless after the first week, so really you guys are only missing 5 channels.

I do too and I don't miss it at all but come Sept KRON will have more value for some due to it's MyNetwork affiliation. Of course it remains to be seen if the MyNetwork programming will be on KRON's HD channel. My understanding is that MyNetwork programming is 100% HD though so it seems likely.

Regarding analog customers, I haven't seen the sub numbers lately, but I'm 99% certain that analog only subs are still over 50% of Comcast sub base, so analog is very important to Comcast.

ercp1

05-31-06, 10:51 AM

advice i can think of:

- stop watching analog, at least on ur 3412. i only watch analog on my old tvs, and only watch SD programs on digital channels where available... (410 opposed to 77, 702 opposed to 2)...

- relief should be coming very soon with ADS... you'll be able to watch ur analog channels in a digital form

-d* (not dtv) is abominable. really abominable. hdlite makes me want to scream everytime i see it at a local retailer trying to show off hdtv. luckily the local frys here uses comcast :)

Thanks for the advice. Do you think using HDMI from the Moto 3412 instead of composite will help?

RBurks

05-31-06, 11:13 AM

garypen

05-31-06, 12:39 PM

garypen

05-31-06, 12:45 PM

It all depends on the area you live in. If possible, go by or call a local Comcast store and see if you can get a 3412. If you can then your area has ADS.

If you can't get a 3412 then go for the Phase III 6412...they are supposed to have better analog tuners.

A few Comcast areas have 6416's but none of them are in the Bay Area.

Thanks for the info. I'm not familiar with the 3412. Does it have the same features as the 6412? (Judging by the "12", I assume it has the same tiny hdd.) All other DVR features the same?

Is the 3412 the only model able to receive ADS? I would think that the other digital receivers would receive the ADS channels, if they were there.

Is the 3412 digital-only? No analog tuner?

bobby94928

05-31-06, 01:31 PM

The 3412 is digital only. The 6412 will receive ADS just fine.

mds54

05-31-06, 02:10 PM

So if Comcast MIGHT actually listen if we all call in, what HD channels would you like to see added?
I would like ESPN2, Universal HD, and TNT (Basketball contract). Others?

Keep in mind that here in the SF Bay Area, we are being excluded from
receiving any new HD channels that Comcast has been adding Nationally.

keenan

05-31-06, 02:11 PM

Are you Analog only or not ???

Ok, here's one way to find out how many are analog customers and use analog only
I know this won't be very accurate but should show a possible percentage of people that are analog only. If anyone knows how to do a message for polls, like I've seen in other parts of the forum and can make it just for the Bay Area, it might make it easier to tabulate and get a feeling of a percentage that is analog only. I have no clue on how to do this :), so if you know how your help would be appreciated. I plan on giving this data to Comcast so be honest.

Laters,
Mikef5
As noted, I don't think such a poll will be very accurate. I used to have a subscription to the following e-publication where I'd get monthly reports about all things cable and satellite. Anyway, the below is a table showing subs by company by year. As you can see, Comcast has far more analog only subs than they do digital subs, not even 50% of their sub base is digital yet.

The obscured title reads,

How About Basic Cable Subscribers?
Cable Operator Subscriber Statistics
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v637/keenanj/cablesubsANN.gif

The site has quite a bit of free info,

http://www.mbc-thebridge.com/viewbridge.cfm?instance_id=7
The BRIDGE - Because no media's an island®

sfhub

05-31-06, 03:46 PM

As noted, I don't think such a poll will be very accurate. I used to have a subscription to the following e-publication where I'd get monthly reports about all things cable and satellite. Anyway, the below is a table showing subs by company by year. As you can see, Comcast has far more analog only subs than they do digital subs, not even 50% of their sub base is digital yet.
It seems based on those #s, even if we extrapolate for 06, Comcast is likely to have more than 50% analog as you mentioned. That doesn't even include the digital folks who still use analog on some of the devices in their home, 2nd TV, TiVo, etc. HD customers are probably a much smaller percentage of the digital customers, and truly it is the HD digital customers complaining more than the SD digital customers. So it seems the smallest percentage of customers are the ones that are the most upset. I would be too if I were in 550, but I'd need to factor in how big a voice my segment really was to get an idea whether my voice would be heard.

keenan

05-31-06, 03:51 PM

I think HD customers might account for 10% of Comcast's total sub base. So yes, we're not really a force to be reckoned with, not to mention, that we really don't "pay" for the HD channels. Sure, the cost of HD is rolled into the overall sub price, but I'll bet it's a very small amount currently, certainly not enough to justify targeting equipment upgrades just to get that HD dollar.

Mikef5

05-31-06, 04:04 PM

The site has quite a bit of free info,

http://www.mbc-thebridge.com/viewbr...m?instance_id=7
The BRIDGE - Because no media's an island®Keenan,
Thanks for the link, this will keep me busy for days and take my mind off this analog stuff. But I think I've had enough, Comcast can keep all the analog they want, too bad they have some good people that I've worked with in the last couple of years but I just can't stay in a second rate system with no relief in sight for the near future.

Laters,
Mikef5

greeno

05-31-06, 05:42 PM

lmsyl

05-31-06, 06:32 PM

I am in Fremont. My 6412 III still does not get the ADS channels, although they are on channel 80+. Is that because Comcast has not enabled it in Fremont?

sfhub

05-31-06, 07:18 PM

I am in Fremont. My 6412 III still does not get the ADS channels, although they are on channel 80+. Is that because Comcast has not enabled it in Fremont?
Most areas have ADS on the wire. However it hasn't been enabled in the guide. 3412 is digital only so ADS is the only way it can pick up 2-80 so that is why it picks up ADS. Also if you use QAM tuner it will pick up ADS.

xlurkr

05-31-06, 08:03 PM

Mikef5:

Here's a data point for ya...

Last night I downgraded to Basic. My wife tells me a guy came out today and installed a filter inside the lockbox in my condo complex. We now get nothing but fuzz above channel 34.

Also, add me to the ambivalent roster. I have one room with an HDTV, good sound system, and an HD cable box, and two rooms with analog DVR's and small TV's.

I too was appalled by the PQ of many of Comcast's analog channels. It looked like they were compressed down to about 0.5 Mb/s, then expanded and transmitted in analog form. Jaggies, macroblocking, and bad color gradients galore.

The lower numbered channels, mostly broadcast channels, don't have those problems, but have lots of mosquito noise when tuned by the cable box. They look much better when tuned by the TV.

-Tom

fender4645

05-31-06, 08:57 PM

Well I swapped my 6412 for a 3412, as that's all they have at the local Livermore office.

hopefully it'll work better than the 6412.

does this also mean that Livermore is on digital simulcast (that 2-82 are digitally encoded now)?

Best,
jeff

If they gave you a 3412 and you can recieve channels 1-82, then yes, you have ADS (almost sound like a disease :D )

One thing to note, even if you are in an ADS area, chances are your 6412 will still receive the analog channels. You have to introduce a 3412 into your house in order to deam your house as "digital ready". I have a 3412 and 6412 in my house and after about a week of having the 3412, the 6412 began using the digital version of the "analog" channels.

fender4645

05-31-06, 09:00 PM

Philip Klein

05-31-06, 09:10 PM

Did anyone get a message on their STB today saying that "Starz E ch 533 will be removed from Premium service and Encore E ch 517will be removed from Digital Plus"? Does this mean these channels are being taken off the system completely? Or are they going to be available to all digital customers?

I received the message and I suspect that the east versions of the Starz and Encore are being completely removed but that is just my opinion uncorrupted by anything Comcast or its CSR's have said.

- Phil

fender4645

05-31-06, 09:15 PM

I received the message and I suspect that the east versions of the Starz and Encore are being completely removed but that is just my opinion uncorrupted by anything Comcast or its CSR's have said.

- Phil

You're probably right. The message said that they're adding Indieplex and Retroplex (has anyone heard of these????) to the Digital Plus lineup. Are we that bandwidth starved that we can't even add 2 additional SD digital channels? Or are these being taken off everywhere?

RBurks

05-31-06, 10:49 PM

Keep in mind that here in the SF Bay Area, we are being excluded from
receiving any new HD channels that Comcast has been adding Nationally.

Sorry to be such a Nob, but I didn't know we were being excluded here in the bay area. Can you shed more light specifically to what this means, exactly?

nikeykid

05-31-06, 11:06 PM

Sorry to be such a Nob, but I didn't know we were being excluded here in the bay area. Can you shed more light specifically to what this means, exactly?

he's talking about TNT-HD not being added, among other things. i bet it has more to do with the inequalities of the systems rather them trying to screw us as a whole... ironically however.................

sfhub

05-31-06, 11:53 PM

I too was appalled by the PQ of many of Comcast's analog channels. It looked like they were compressed down to about 0.5 Mb/s, then expanded and transmitted in analog form. Jaggies, macroblocking, and bad color gradients galore.
These are properties normally associated with digital transmissions, not analog.

Analog, you'll see noise, degrades transitions, scrolling lines, etc. etc.

I think it depends on the area though. In my area, analog looks quite decent. I actually prefer analog to the standard digital SD channels. ADS digital SD and movie channels look decent though. I'm not using an STB with a crappy encoder like 6412 P1/P2 though.

sfhub

05-31-06, 11:58 PM

One thing to note, even if you are in an ADS area, chances are your 6412 will still receive the analog channels. You have to introduce a 3412 into your house in order to deam your house as "digital ready". I have a 3412 and 6412 in my house and after about a week of having the 3412, the 6412 began using the digital version of the "analog" channels.
Sounds like they make a change to your account and it applies to all STBs associated with your account. It's possible the process could have been sped up by pulling the plug on the 6412 and letting it get authorization and guide data again.

keenan

05-31-06, 11:59 PM

Now that the blood is bubbling, here's another one to keep it boiling. From the HOTP thread. The underlined portion should give you an idea where Comcast is putting their marbles, and it ain't HD.

The Business of Cable TV
Burke: Non-Video Subs to Take Lead

By Gary Arlen Multichannel.com 5/31/2006

Carlsbad, Calif. -- Comcast Corp. will have “more non-video customers than video subscribers” within the next five years, chief operating officer Steve Burke said Wednesday.

The nation’s largest cable-system operator expects to have 25 million Internet and voice accounts, significantly larger than its current base of 21.5 million video subscribers, Burke said.

For instance, the number of Comcast high-speed-Internet customers is growing 15% annually, compared with 1% growth industrywide of multichannel-video customers, Burke said at the “D: All Things Digital” conference here hosted by The Wall Street Journal. Burke was substituting for Comcast CEO Brian Roberts.

Burke also predicted that Comcast’s number of HDTV customers could double within the next 18 months, although he cautioned that growth will depend on more networks delivering programs in HD.

He added that Internet TV is part of cable’s future, with Comcast seeking “to make our portal more compelling than the competition,” referring to telephone companies’ Internet services.

Burke said, “It is a good thing” to put more shows on the Internet. He suggested that content suppliers should consider “slicing and dicing shows” and making these segments available online -- even before they run on cable networks.

Such an approach should be useful to producers that are exploring new schedules for releasing new programs, he added.

Done right, the use of the Internet should not threaten existing revenue, Burke said, adding, “Fear of Internet bypass is not a realistic fear for us.”

This below is especially rich given that of the big three providers, D*, E* and Comcast, Comcast has the least HD. There's plenty out there now that Comcast doesn't carry. That statement should read, "he cautioned that growth will depend on Comcast's ability to actually carry the additional programming".

Burke also predicted that Comcast’s number of HDTV customers could double within the next 18 months, although he cautioned that growth will depend on more networks delivering programs in HD.

fender4645

06-01-06, 12:18 AM

Sounds like they make a change to your account and it applies to all STBs associated with your account. It's possible the process could have been sped up by pulling the plug on the 6412 and letting it get authorization and guide data again.

Possibly, but I remember Barovelli saying something about when a 34xx shows up on your account, it basically tells the head-end that this customer has the ability to have ADS. Seems kind of archaic though...

russwong

06-01-06, 01:05 AM

Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough...

Let me see if I can elaborate and you can correct me if I'm wrong again, which is very possible.

digital tuning vs analog tuning - I'm comparing tuning via a cable box vs tuning directly with the tv. I know some tv's have digital tuners, but my Tivo and MCE do not, so I would have to tune via a box. Correct?

Digital sets - I've been looking for a new TV for 5 years and I'm always looking to see what's out there. As a matter of fact, I was at Magnolia last weekend and still didn't find anything I really liked. I've also seen the HD sets that my friends have and even they find my CRT to be better then their plasmas. Yes, I also have a feeling that SED might be a while, so I'm looking at the 2006 SXRDs as a possible stop gap, but I don't think the picture will be as good as my CRT tvs, either because of black level, viewing angle, or just clarity (one crt is HD capable and the other is not, but both give a pretty damn good picture when fed HD content)

Tuning speed - I'm comparing tuning via a cable box vs tuning directly via the TV.

Analog vs digital channels - I currently get less channels via the cable box then I do when connected directly to the TV. So I would have to say that your statement about what I would get on digital would be the same as analog is incorrect. Now that might be because comcast is doing something wrong, but I'm not complaining.

So if I'm still wrong, let me know.

Russ

Russ,
Let me address your concerns individually,

How can you judge digital tuning to analog tuning you said you don't have an HD set ?? I do and I can tell you there is no difference and if you have a difference it's a problem with the set or tuner and not because the signal is digital.
When was the last time you looked at digital sets ?? Sony makes a great digital set at a reasonable price, I know one of my HD's is a Sony. If you are waiting for SED to become available, I bet Comcast will upgrade the 550 MHz areas before you see SED sets. That's not to say the technology is bad it's just way in the future.
I don't know what to tell you some people find simple things hard to understand, my mother has the same problem with the remotes, but with a good remote you can get everything to be on a single remote
No it doesn't , it depends again on your tuner or tv set and you can't compare what you don't have and your computer set up doesn't count because they have to many things going on other than displaying tv signals which affect their ablility to do tv effectively.
That's what bothered me the most. Do you know that if they go all digital you will still get all the same channels you now get by analog with no increase in price ??? The basic tier will remain the same it will just be digital rather than analog. The only thing you will need a box for are the premium channels or those that are now encrypted.

I hope you understand that most of your concerns are unfounded or are not fixable no matter if the signal is digital or not, like your remote problem.

Laters,
Mikef5

russwong

06-01-06, 01:18 AM

What I'm getting at is that they are keeping the analog for what ?? People that have basic cable and don't what to upgrade to digital? Basic cable is what 15 dollars a month ?? Are there that many people that are analog only and don't want to upgrade to digital to keep analog ?? To get anything else you need a box, if you need a box then go all digital like with the 3412. There can't be that many people that are analog only. The big seller is the premium channels, video on demand, etc. not $15 a month customers. Do you sense my frustration ??? :)

Laters,
Mikef5

Everyone I know subscribes to either basic cable or expanded cable with HD, not digital cable. It's just too damn expensive. $15 for basic or $50 for expanded or $60 for digital... that's a huge gap, then add the $5 for HD + $7 for another TV and what do you get for it? More channels we don't watch. And all these people are 20-30 year old people, not old foggies. We are tech savy people who watch HD, have multiple media centers. I have 2 HD cards and record via firewire on 1 of my 2 Media centers. I also have 2 Tivos as well, but all I watch is broadcast HD and that's unencrypted and when I'm really bored, I watch Food TV, MTV, and E out of the 80 channels.

Then you take into account the people who aren't tech savy or are just plain old. My bet is, more then 50% of people out there are only using basic or expanded basic and a large portions of the ones that have higher were probably up sold something they don't even use and never bothered changing back when the special period was over and just don't realize it.

xlurkr

06-01-06, 01:39 AM

These are properties normally associated with digital transmissions, not analog.

Analog, you'll see noise, degrades transitions, scrolling lines, etc. etc.

I think it depends on the area though. In my area, analog looks quite decent. I actually prefer analog to the standard digital SD channels. ADS digital SD and movie channels look decent though. I'm not using an STB with a crappy encoder like 6412 P1/P2 though.

Well, I am using a model with the crappy encoder, but I saw the artifacts I'm talking about when I used the analog tuner on my TV set. My only explanation is that they encode these channels, maybe to save space or bandwidth somewhere on their infrastructure, then decode them and transmit them in analog form.

Also, I only saw those artifacts on the higher channels. The lower broadcast channels look quite decent, as you say. Most of the time.

sfhub

06-01-06, 02:07 AM

How can you judge digital tuning to analog tuning you said you don't have an HD set ?? I do and I can tell you there is no difference and if you have a difference it's a problem with the set or tuner and not because the signal is digital.
...
I don't know what to tell you some people find simple things hard to understand, my mother has the same problem with the remotes, but with a good remote you can get everything to be on a single remote
...
I hope you understand that most of your concerns are unfounded or are not fixable no matter if the signal is digital or not, like your remote problem.

Mike, it is just a different view point. You happen to use Comcast provided equipment so you aren't exposed to the issues. For your usage, dropping analog has no detrimental effect. It isn't true for others.

It isn't that analog tuning is "easier" than digital tuning. Recording with the TiVo, ReplayTV, MCE, etc. internal tuner (which happens to be analog) is much easier, simpler, and less prone to error than using the IR blaster to control the cable box. If you go the IR blaster route, you are exposed to somebody turning of the cable box by accident, someone changing the channel while recording because they don't realize the channel is being recorded, IR blaster not having the IR codes to control the newer STB.

Programming a universal remote is beyond the capabilities of a large portion of Comcast customers. For them, going all digital means using 2 remote controls. We can't project our own experiences onto others, unless we are willing to go door to door and program peoples' remotes for them.

Actually Russ's main concern is directly related to dropping analog.

I have a 1920x1080 panel, 5 PVRs, Toshiba HD-DVD player, HD tuner from Comcast, MyHD MDP-130 QAM HD recorder for my PC, advanced JP1 programmable remote, and I happen to agree with Russ's points. I also have various analog TVs scattered around the house and I have no desire to add an STB to the mix even though I can easily program my remotes to handle them seamlessly. I just don't want the extra 30watts per STB running 24/7 vs my 1 watt standby for my TVs which I use far less often than my main TV.

It's not a matter of hanging on to the old. I have access to HD content, it just isn't the most important thing for me. Convenient access to my content with commercial skip, unlimited storage space, avoiding the times I miss a show because the cable box got turned off or channel got changed, etc. are more important to me than viewing something in HD.

If I'm watching something and the HD version is available, I watch it, but I'm not going crazy if I have to watch the analog version.

It's just like my HD-DVD player. I have access to HD movies with zero macroblocking and very good picture detail. I watch it if it is available, but many times I just go back and watch stuff on my Oppo upconverting DVD player, because the player is so much faster and plays PAL as well as NTSC and the content base for DVDs is much greater than HD-DVD. The Oppo is just a more convenient player than the Toshiba. And again, it's not because I don't see the improved PQ on the Toshiba, I do, especially with a 1920x1080 panel, but I just don't prioritize PQ above convenience, whereas some people feel the opposite and PQ is paramount. I don't think anyone is right or wrong, these are just different opinions.

sfhub

06-01-06, 02:10 AM

Well, I am using a model with the crappy encoder, but I saw the artifacts I'm talking about when I used the analog tuner on my TV set. My only explanation is that they encode these channels, maybe to save space or bandwidth somewhere on their infrastructure, then decode them and transmit them in analog form.

Also, I only saw those artifacts on the higher channels. The lower broadcast channels look quite decent, as you say. Most of the time.
It's certainly possible your area has a different setup than mine. All my channels 2-80 have roughly the same PQ. Some channels are worse, but usually it is the source content and at other broadcast times it looks better, but I've never seen macroblocking on a 2-80 channel, in my area.

fender4645

06-01-06, 02:48 AM

Well, I am using a model with the crappy encoder, but I saw the artifacts I'm talking about when I used the analog tuner on my TV set. My only explanation is that they encode these channels, maybe to save space or bandwidth somewhere on their infrastructure, then decode them and transmit them in analog form.

Also, I only saw those artifacts on the higher channels. The lower broadcast channels look quite decent, as you say. Most of the time.

Tune to a channel that has the issue then go to the STB's diagnostics menu (press Power on the box and then immediately press Setup) and go down to In Bound Status. Look at the AGC and signal quality. This will tell you if it's a signal degradation problem. If you have a very low dB level and/or the signal is Fair to Poor then the problem exists before your cable box. It is also possible your getting too high of a gain which can also cause problem. This would be the effect of having a very high dB level.

walk

06-01-06, 12:31 PM

When I got the DVR box (3412) I moved the old one (6200) to the bedroom. I forget when exactly I checked it first, might have been a week or so, but now that box also uses ADS. That is, all channels show up as QAM/digital in the service menu.

The digital picture is "mostly" better. Sometimes though, it's pretty badly compressed, not sure why.. On G4 they are showing "Star Trek 2.0" which is the old Star Trek show shrunk down a bit and framed with some small text, trivia about the show etc... Well, sometimes the text is nice and clear, but other times it's very badly compressed - very blurry, and barely readable..

murraymcleod

06-01-06, 12:46 PM

Looking at options to Comcast, I've read here and other places that the DirecTV HD is not very good ("HDLite"), but what about Dish Network satellite? How is its quality vs. Comcast and DTV?

murraymcleod

06-01-06, 12:55 PM

On another topic, I had a strange problem last week with my 6412 PIII. I have the Tonight Show set as a manual recording (to avoid recording the repeats at 2AM), and it's specified to only save three recordings. I just happened to be watching the third oldest recorded show at 11:35 when the new show would have started recording (making four recordings...). At that time, an error flashed on the screen saying something to the effect that a show couldn't be deleted with error code "UB###" or something (probably referring to the recorded show I was watching). But later going into the list of recorded shows, I found the new show wasn't recorded (as I might expect), but both other recorded occurrences of the Tonight had been deleted (which I didn't expect)! Another great piece of software coding?

greeno

06-01-06, 01:28 PM

I got the 3412 setup last night. Livermore is not in an ADS area since I get nothing on 2-82 with the box. The rep at the LIvermore Comcast office said that that is all they now have to give out. Odd that they're doing this since the box doesn't receive 2-82. I didn't quiz her more because she was basically clueless about what the differences are between the boxes (6412 and 3412).

pq does seem better with this boxfor the digital channels. I agree with the comments above that the digital tier is basically worthless to me. We too watch mostly network HD shows, MTV, E!, HGTV and news channels. I only bought it ($10 I think) because I didn't want to loose EPSN-HD.

Best,
jeff

hiker

06-01-06, 01:40 PM

What? How can they give out a 3412 in an area that doesn't have ADS? Comcast is more screwed up than I thought.

greeno

06-01-06, 02:11 PM

I may be dreaming, but I could have sworn I wasn't getting anything on 2-82 with the 3412. Comcast claims (just called them) that ADS is turned on in Livermore. I'll double check it when I get home tonight and post. But I'm pretty sure I tried and got nothing through the box on 2-82. I apologize in advance if I'm posting bad info...

Until tonight...

jeff

fender4645

06-01-06, 03:29 PM

walk

06-01-06, 03:52 PM

Give it a few hours. When you first plug the box in it won't tune in the "analog" channels (nothing below about 120). After a while it figures itself out.

sfhub

06-01-06, 04:18 PM

The digital picture is "mostly" better. Sometimes though, it's pretty badly compressed, not sure why.. On G4 they are showing "Star Trek 2.0" which is the old Star Trek show shrunk down a bit and framed with some small text, trivia about the show etc... Well, sometimes the text is nice and clear, but other times it's very badly compressed - very blurry, and barely readable..
Is G4 an ADS digital channel in your area? In my area, G4 is a regular digital cable channel. The difference being for the ADS channels, they are usually 704x480i with decent bitrate. The regular digital cable channels vary in quality, with HBO and the pay channels usually being the the best and some of the channels being smaller frame size, which looks blurry when stretched to 16x9.

greeno

06-01-06, 04:34 PM

I think there's nothing special about my area. From what I can tell all of us in town have the same features.

thanks for the info, walk, that the box might have just been confused when I checked.

jeff

garypen

06-01-06, 05:27 PM

The 3412 is digital only. The 6412 will receive ADS just fine.Well...my 6412 wasn't receiving ADS. It was quite easy to tell from the PQ. Yet, today, when I brought in my 6412 to swap for a new one, they gave me a 3412, which means that ADS is indeed alive and well in SJ. If so, why didn't my 6412 receive it? (because of it being a phase II maybe?)

I'm looking forward to getting home and hooking that bad boy up, and enjoying decent PQ on the formerly analog channels. OTOH, I hope it doesn't look like the overcompressed garbage I used to get with Dish.

fender4645

06-01-06, 09:07 PM

If so, why didn't my 6412 receive it? (because of it being a phase II maybe?)

See one of my posts from yesterday. Just because ADS is available doesn't mean you'll automatically get it. For some reason you have to first introduce a 3412 in order for the digital channels to start coming through. All "phases" of the 6xxx series of boxes are ADS capable.

greeno

06-01-06, 10:37 PM

My bad... ADS is in Livermore. the 3412 decodes 2-82 just fine. pq is not bad. I see a bit of oddness in shades of colors, not horrific color banding/contouring like the 6412 PII, but still visible.

Also, 5-6 hours after hooking it up, my guide had mostly downloaded, but in a wierd way. There were holes in the guides at odd times on seemly random channels. BBC america was the one channel I really wanted to set some recordings up (addicted to Footballer's wives) and those showed "to be announced". wierd.

Also, with virtually no trying trying, this box decided to stop responding to remote commands. Can't moto get this right. It is so annoying to have a box just freeze up when you're trying to get it to work. Oh I just remembered. i casually brought up the lock-up feature with the CSR in the livermore office. Her fix was to leave the box on all the time. doesn't she know that that's what causes it to begin to lock up (the 6412 PII, at least). now the 3412 seems to do it just randomly...

disappointed again with comcast, and $120/month poorer ;-(
jeff

fender4645

06-01-06, 11:51 PM

keenan

06-02-06, 12:14 AM

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/06/01/MNGC0J5SD65.DTL

This still has to go through the state senate but if this goes through, this could be a major step in the right direction for consumers. Because the franchise agreement would be on the state level, potential providers such as AT&T and Verizon don't have to get authorization at the city level. This, of course, allows for multiple providers to operate within the same city.
We'll have to see how they handle red-lining in the bill. I would think that it would be a significant issue that would have been outlined in the bill. Has anyone seen a copy of the actual bill?

keenan

06-02-06, 12:18 AM

Looking at options to Comcast, I've read here and other places that the DirecTV HD is not very good ("HDLite"), but what about Dish Network satellite? How is its quality vs. Comcast and DTV?
By tomorrow afternoon I should have local HD from Dish and I'll let you know. I'm not expecting it to be the same quality as Comcast, but I will say Dish's national HD is quite good, sometimes indistinguishable from Comcast. DirecTV is a whole different story.

fender4645

06-02-06, 12:49 AM

We'll have to see how they handle red-lining in the bill. I would think that it would be a significant issue that would have been outlined in the bill. Has anyone seen a copy of the actual bill?

Here's the latest version of the bill:

http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_2951-3000/ab_2987_bill_20060531_amended_asm.pdf

Haven't had a chance to read it yet.

fender4645

06-02-06, 01:13 AM

I scanned through the bill and it seems fair to me. It looks like local government still gets franchise revenue, although it's based upon the "incumbents" current fee. So if the city of Santa Rosa gets 4% of Comcast's gross revenue for their city, then any other provider that wants to provide video service in Santa Rosa cannot be charged over 4%. In the event there isn't an "incumbent" then the franchise fee cannot exceed 5%. If a provider's franchise application is accepted then the local city/county MUST allow that provider to build appropriate infrastructure and provide video service to their residents.

Opponents of the bill say that it can encourage other providers to only build infrastructure in wealthy areas, or areas where they're going to make the most money. For example, if Verizon wants to enter the Bay Area market, they're more inclined to build up areas like Orinda, Lafayette, and Moraga since those residents are more likely to pay more for video service then those in areas such as Oakland or Richmond. I'm not quite sure how that differs from today since franchises go from city to city and they build up whatever area they like.

All in all, this should be good for us in the long run as it will promote competition. It will also prevent "rouge" cities such as Walnut Creek and prevent them from trying to fleece any incoming provider.

RAPP81

06-02-06, 03:04 AM

All in all, this should be good for us in the long run as it will promote competition. It will also prevent "rouge" cities such as Walnut Creek and prevent them from trying to fleece any incoming provider.

Walnut Creek got too cocky when Astound came into the picture, essentially doing whatever it took to make the city happy, building a hybrid fiber network from the ground up, when then TCI couldn't with an upgrade.

keenan

06-02-06, 05:14 AM

walk

06-03-06, 12:58 AM

I know some of you reading this can help. I'm setting up my old PC with a large HD to make back ups of my 3412 DVR (capturing by Firewire, right?). Any pointers in the right direction would be great.

fender4645

06-03-06, 01:08 AM

I know some of you reading this can help. I'm setting up my old PC with a large HD to make back ups of my 3412 DVR (capturing by Firewire, right?). Any pointers in the right direction would be great.

Best step-by-step: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=403695

walk

06-03-06, 01:22 AM

Bookmarked, thanks. I should have all the parts I need next week :)

wareagle

06-03-06, 10:20 AM

Bookmarked, thanks. I should have all the parts I need next week :)

Be sure to check to see that your old PC will support the firewire transfer (OS and speed). You might have to consider using a newer one for the transfer, then store the data on the old drive.

walk

06-03-06, 02:30 PM

Grandude

06-03-06, 02:36 PM

By tomorrow afternoon I should have local HD from Dish and I'll let you know. I'm not expecting it to be the same quality as Comcast, but I will say Dish's national HD is quite good, sometimes indistinguishable from Comcast. DirecTV is a whole different story.
I signed up for DishHD a week or so ago and so far I am slightly disappointed. Two major problems still exist on the SF HD locals.
KNTV channel 11 has 'smearing' or mouse trails in the HD broadcasts making watching it very annoying.
KGO/ABC channel 7 has lipsync problems which also is very annoying.
Emails to Dish bring the response that they 'think' they have fixed part of the problem but so far, I am still not too happy.

I encourage you to email dishquality@echostar.com if you see the same or other problems.

I believe that they will eventually fix the problems.

I also have the same channels on Comcast here in the far north end of Santa Rosa, on the Healdsburg leg, and consider the quality of the picture better by a small degree on the cable hookup.

Almost forgot to mention this is with a VIP622 DVR. Is this what you are getting?

keenan

06-03-06, 03:19 PM

I signed up for DishHD a week or so ago and so far I am slightly disappointed. Two major problems still exist on the SF HD locals.
KNTV channel 11 has 'smearing' or mouse trails in the HD broadcasts making watching it very annoying.
KGO/ABC channel 7 has lipsync problems which also is very annoying.
Emails to Dish bring the response that they 'think' they have fixed part of the problem but so far, I am still not too happy.

I encourage you to email dishquality@echostar.com if you see the same or other problems.

I believe that they will eventually fix the problems.

I also have the same channels on Comcast here in the far north end of Santa Rosa, on the Healdsburg leg, and consider the quality of the picture better by a small degree on the cable hookup.

Almost forgot to mention this is with a VIP622 DVR. Is this what you are getting?

Yes, it was installed yesterday. So far I have only glanced at the HD locals and recorded a few KPIX HD programs last night but haven't viewed them yet. I had the installer put up two additional dishes, one for 129 and the other for 148 as I have tree issues. I will say the HBO and SHO off of 148 is outstanding, no difference from the Comcast version. Never seen the Voom stuff before but much of it looks very good. The HD James Bond marathon on FILMF is great. :)

BTW, in case Comcast is reading, I set the guide to filter for just HD and there's 33 different HD channels. :p

davisdog

06-03-06, 04:38 PM

Yes, it was installed yesterday. So far I have only glanced at the HD locals and recorded a few KPIX HD programs last night but haven't viewed them yet. I had the installer put up two additional dishes, one for 129 and the other for 148 as I have tree issues. I will say the HBO and SHO off of 148 is outstanding, no difference from the Comcast version. Never seen the Voom stuff before but much of it looks very good. The HD James Bond marathon on FILMF is great. :)

BTW, in case Comcast is reading, I set the guide to filter for just HD and there's 33 different HD channels. :p

Keep us updated on how the VIP622 works and what the HD Channels are like...

I'm looking to dump Comcast..enough of this 550Mhz crap..my bill is outrageous for what I get...If I can get more with Dish or D* its time for me to take the leap...and dump my $45/mth Internet service with it...ATT/SBC is a much better deal for that @ $13-$28/mth depending on how fast you want.

I hope its good since I'd love to see a defection of customers, its the only way Mr.Johnson & company will do anything if we talk with our wallets.

fender4645

06-03-06, 05:56 PM

Heh, it's a P4 2.8ghz with 1gb ram and an Nvidia 6800GT - not exactly "old" but I figure it's worth more to me this way than trying to sell it on Ebay. I did have to buy a new HDD since I kept that for the new pc, and only had like some old 30-40 gig drives laying around. Got a 250g drive for $75, not bad huh.... I remember buying my first 1gb drive ... = $1,100.

Anyway the FW1394 should be enabled on the box right? In the service menu it says 1394=INST, but data/output = none/0.. I assume that's only because I have nothing connected to the port yet?

Oh it will also be networked to my main pc which also has a 250g drive and a DVD burner, so I should be ok space-wise for a while :)

Yes, FW it should be enabled on the box although you may may need to reboot it with the cable attached to your computer. Once you get the drivers installed, CapDVHS should see it as a "recordable" device. Remember though, when you record the output, it will be saved as a Transport Stream (.ts file). Very few players will play this natively (VideoLAN is probably the best one). There are ways to convert the files to straight-up MPEG-2 (or any other format) but it requires a little bit of effort.

TPeterson

06-03-06, 06:20 PM

"Very few players"??? That's not my experience. Even WMP will play TS if you have the correct codecs installed. My fave (aside from MyHD and FusionHDTV, which are bundled with hardware) is Media Player Classic, which is free and easier to set up than VideoLAN, IMO. 'Course, PowerDVD, WinDVD, and TheatreTek are also great for playing TS....

fender4645

06-03-06, 06:26 PM

"Very few players"??? That's not my experience. Even WMP will play TS if you have the correct codecs installed.

Hence, the reason why I said "natively". Almost everything can play everything if you have the right codec installed. However sometimes finding the right codec isn't the easiest thing to do. I like VLC mainly because it's open source and has native support for almost every video type out there.

TPeterson

06-03-06, 06:46 PM

keenan

06-03-06, 06:48 PM

Keep us updated on how the VIP622 works and what the HD Channels are like...

I'm looking to dump Comcast..enough of this 550Mhz crap..my bill is outrageous for what I get...If I can get more with Dish or D* its time for me to take the leap...and dump my $45/mth Internet service with it...ATT/SBC is a much better deal for that @ $13-$28/mth depending on how fast you want.

I hope its good since I'd love to see a defection of customers, its the only way Mr.Johnson & company will do anything if we talk with our wallets.
Will do. So far the 622 operates as it should, never had a problem with the 942 either. Right now I'm watching a Tori Amos concert on the Voom Rave channel and it looks and sounds spectacular. Next week I will get some of the local HD recorded and see how that looks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Went down to the local Comcast office today to try and get Expanded Basic removed from my subscription and everything was going fine until she saw that I had the DVR service. No go, if you have the DVR you have to have both Limited and Expanded. Which sucks, especially when I know for a fact it is not a nationwide Comcast policy. It essentially puts the DVR cost at not $9.95 per month, but at $27.86(Expanded Basic) + $9.95(DVR) for a total of $37.81 a month which is insane. That's $453.72 per year, just for the privelidge of using Comcast's DVR. That amount makes going with a satco that much more compelling when you consider a $10(about $45 total per month) more expensive programming package and the initial outlay of $100 to $200 for the sat HD-DVR plus the $5 or so a month for DVR service/lease fee puts you ahead of the game in the first year of service!. Oh yeah, if it breaks the satco replaces it free of charge, just like Comcast.

What really burns my ass is that in other Comcast areas only Limited Basic and Digital Classic is required for the DVR, and in some, like Boston, all you need is Limited Basic to get the DVR. In fact, the current price lists from Comcast(a federal requirement) indicate that you can get Digital Classic with just Limited Basic, but, NOTHING about what's required to get the DVR. I asked at the office for something in writing about the requirement for Standard and she couldn't produce anything, she said a supervisor would call me on Monday.

We are being gouged by Comcast here in the SF bay area!!

Mikef5, if possible I would love to get Mr. J's thoughts on this, and "just because" ain't going to cut it, I stopped accepting that answer when I was about 10 yrs old. The argument, "just cancel Comcast", is not the point either, the point is why is the SF area treated more harshly financially-wise than other Comcast areas, areas that have a full slate of HD channels, bandwidth and services!

fender4645

06-03-06, 07:03 PM

The implication of your original statement to many would be that one must convert TS to some other form to play them. I wanted to make sure that walk and other readers here understand that such is not the case. Even garden-variety DVD-player sw nowadays handles TS straight from the box.

I did specifically mention that VideoLAN supports playing transport stream files, however I apologize if my statement was at all confusing. I only brought up converting to a different format because if you want to burn files to play on your stand-alone DVD player, you'll need to convert to either a straight-up MPEG-2 or whatever format your DVD player will recognize (i.e. Divx, Xvid, etc.). I don't know of any stand-alone DVD player that will play .ts files but if there is , by all means let us know.

TPeterson

06-03-06, 07:25 PM

keenan

06-03-06, 07:34 PM

You guys with lots of computer horsepower might want to give the following post a look. It plays on my computer(1.5Ghz) but it stutters. It is some of the most amazing looking HD I've ever seen.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7675419&&#post7675419
MPEG-2 on a BD-25... what will be the results?? - AVS Forum

fender4645

06-03-06, 08:10 PM

There are several STB DVD players that handle TS, including IO-DATA's AVLP2, Zensonic's Z500, and Snazzio-something (see it advertised here in the Forum). There are also STB media servers that can hold TS or other formats of media on internal HDD for display on an HDTV, including DViCo's M5000 TViX and Pixel Magic's box. All of these, with or without DVD drives, will also play TS on your HDTV over a LAN from your PC's HDD. Transport Stream is far from a marginal format. ;)

PS: All of these widgets have dedicated threads here on the AVS Forum. Read and learn.

Interesting -- I didn't know these existed. But the devices you listed above are far from your "standard" DVD players (the Zensonic isn't even available in the US yet). I personally ain't going to shell out $300+ dollars for a DVD player when my $49 Philips plays MPEG-2, Divx, and Xvid DVDs just fine. However, in the spirit of this conversation, if you're going to be burning a bunch of .ts files for later viewing then, yes, purchasing one of these would probably be worth it. I would much rather spend the money on resurrecting an old PC and using it as a straight up Media Center...no need to burn anything (which is exactly what I did :) )

walk

06-04-06, 12:30 AM

Well I'll either play the .TS file directly, hopefully, like if it was recorded from INHD/etc without commercials, or edit it into a MPG file using Vdub or whatever works.

There are some standard-def programs that I wouldn't mind recording to MP2 / DVD disc. But then there are some HD programs that I will probably just keep on the HDD for the forseeable future. It just seems like a waste to delete stuff like the 2 Kurosawa films I have on the DVR - or even Toy Story which is being recorded from ABC-HD as I type this :)

I have a LCD-DVD combo player in the bedroom that does play some Divx/Xvid discs (but not HD formats) but the Zenith 318 which I have in the main home-theater does not... so I'll just have to settle for playback from the PC.

ZachAJ

06-04-06, 11:52 AM

Hey folks

I am moving to Berkeley from Gainesville, FL and had a few questions about the HD service with Comcast....I had crappy Cox in Gainesville and it blew - no on-demand, very few HD stations (no ABC or FOX!!!!!), etc. We also had SA boxes, not your Motos.

1. What are the differences between the Moto HD set top boxes (3412, 6412 PII, 6412 PIII, 6200, etc.)? Which of your Moto set-tops is the best to try to get (i.e. has HDMI, firewire transfer to PC, best PQ, best sound quality, etc.)? And which am I most likely to get in the Berkeley area?

2. Do any of the HD set tops work correctly yet with HDCP passthrough through a receiver? (I'll probably be hooking up to a Denon AVR-4306 -> Westinghouse 42" 1080p)

3. Are there any areas with better or worse content/features in the Berkeley area that I should watch out for?

4. How many channels are 5C encrypted?

Thanks in advance guys and gals. Looking forward to finally having on-demand and some decent channels (although I'm sad to see there's no TNT-HD...)

nikeykid

06-04-06, 12:12 PM

whoohoo! today there are two baseball games in HD on fsnba, back to back. it doesn't happen often so i'm excited as hell. anyway welcome to the bay area, i had a friend in berk who had on demand so i assume berk is 750mhz, similar to pa so you will get the same offerings i do. (FOX NBC KRON aka mynetworkTV CBS ABC PBS INHD1 2 DISC ESPN HBO CINEMAX STARZ SHO) the first 6 are in the clear and not 5ced. now that bball conference finals are over, very little use for tnt hd. i am more concerned about espn2hd atm.

i have moto 6412III which works fine as long as you keep cleaning up your recordings, 120gb is actually not enough to keep things around for a month, a week sometimes. you can get a 3412 if your area has gone all digital, so your analog channels will look a lot better. so i would go 3412 if available, then 6412. anyway can't answer all ur questions hope it at least is a start.

sfhub

06-04-06, 12:25 PM

Went down to the local Comcast office today to try and get Expanded Basic removed from my subscription and everything was going fine until she saw that I had the DVR service. No go, if you have the DVR you have to have both Limited and Expanded. Which sucks, especially when I know for a fact it is not a nationwide Comcast policy. It essentially puts the DVR cost at not $9.95 per month, but at $27.86(Expanded Basic) + $9.95(DVR) for a total of $37.81 a month which is insane. That's $453.72 per year, just for the privelidge of using Comcast's DVR. That amount makes going with a satco that much more compelling when you consider a $10(about $45 total per month) more expensive programming package and the initial outlay of $100 to $200 for the sat HD-DVR plus the $5 or so a month for DVR service/lease fee puts you ahead of the game in the first year of service!. Oh yeah, if it breaks the satco replaces it free of charge, just like Comcast.

What really burns my ass is that in other Comcast areas only Limited Basic and Digital Classic is required for the DVR, and in some, like Boston, all you need is Limited Basic to get the DVR. In fact, the current price lists from Comcast(a federal requirement) indicate that you can get Digital Classic with just Limited Basic, but, NOTHING about what's required to get the DVR. I asked at the office for something in writing about the requirement for Standard and she couldn't produce anything, she said a supervisor would call me on Monday.

We are being gouged by Comcast here in the SF bay area!!

This is one of the main reasons proponents argue that having Comcast/MSOs use CableCARD (or whatever open cable solution) on their own equipment is so important. Also the same argument for why CableCARD should not be killed by pricing policies.

Most people think the DVR only costs $10 more, but if you look at the hidden cost, it can be a lot more, considering the packages you need to get. Also STB costs add up over time, when you could have the feature integrated into your TV for $100. vs $6.95/month.

The same $450 you pay to Comcast could be used to purchase a yet to be released TiVo S3, leaving you with a significantly more advanced DVR that you own and can bring with you if you move or sell if you want something better.

However, it seems that MSO policies, whether directly or indirectly have essentially killed CableCARD, as newer displays are dropping CableCARD support and the only independent CableCARD cable PVR (Sony) is being discontinued.

w/o choice, innovation will be determined by Comcast's priorities, which may not match consumers' priorities. w/o choice, price will be higher because of lack of competition. w/o an external encryption system (CableCARD being the only thing that has been released and is viable) there will be no choice.

fender4645

06-04-06, 12:53 PM

I'll expand on Nikeykid's answers a bit:

1. What are the differences between the Moto HD set top boxes (3412, 6412 PII, 6412 PIII, 6200, etc.)? Which of your Moto set-tops is the best to try to get (i.e. has HDMI, firewire transfer to PC, best PQ, best sound quality, etc.)? And which am I most likely to get in the Berkeley area?
6200 = non-DVR HD STB (I'm not sure if this had DVI -- I think so)
6412 PII = 2nd incarnation of the 64xx DVR's; 120 GB HD; DVI output
6412 PIII = 3rd incarnation of the 64xx DVR's; 120 GB HD; HDMI output; some say better responsiveness
3412 = all-digital DVR; smaller then the 6412's; 120GB HD; DVI and HDMI; only available in ADS areas

2. Do any of the HD set tops work correctly yet with HDCP passthrough through a receiver? (I'll probably be hooking up to a Denon AVR-4306 -> Westinghouse 42" 1080p)
I'm not sure as I don't use my receiver for video switching but I do remember hearing that there were problems with this. Maybe someone else can give more info.

3. Are there any areas with better or worse content/features in the Berkeley area that I should watch out for?
As Nikeykid said, it appears berkeley is a 750MHz are so you get as much as you can in regards to HD and VOD.

4. How many channels are 5C encrypted?
Right now, none. However there have been sporadic reports of people having some/all of their channels 5c flagged (remember, 5c is NOT an encryption type -- it's just a flag stuck on a transmission). This seems to be a "glitch" but I don't think anyone's been able to resolve it.

Mikef5

06-04-06, 01:09 PM

Well, I'm back again, had some things to take care of but it's all good now.

Anyway, looks like I have a lot of reading to catch up with and I do have another bone to pick with Comcast ( you knew that I would :) )
But before I do that please look at this link http://www.tvforall.org/ , it's Comcast's response to the assembly bill that was passed the other day, assembly bill 2987, which passed with a 70-0 vote. Democrats and Republicans voting together..... unanimously ??? The world is going to end..... :p But Comcasts response to this is just totally amazing but read it your self, especially the people in the 550 MHz areas. I'll leave it at that for now until more people read this response and I look forward to what you think Comcast is really trying to do.

Oh, yeah, I did sign up with Dish and I'm waiting for my install date.... a month away :confused:

Laters,
Mikef5

keenan

06-04-06, 02:02 PM

Where exactly on that site is the response you mentioned?

Mikef5

06-04-06, 02:29 PM

Where exactly on that site is the response you mentioned?
Here's my beef with that site.

Texan's at Enron and lights going out ??? Give me a break and if I were a Texan I'd be pi**d to be equated with Enron.

The possibility that AT&T will go for the wealthy people and ignore the poorer areas, like red lining ??? Comcast doesn't DO THAT ALREADY ??? Comcast has already said that the 550 MHz areas will not be upgraded because they are not cost effective enough to do so and they don't exclude just areas in a city but whole cities at a time like Santa Rosa, Saratoga, Los Gatos, Milpitas, some parts of Sunnyvale and I'm sure that there are more in the 550 MHz areas.

Give up the store to monopolies that want to raise the phone rates to pay for this entry to the video market ??? If you read the bill it specifically prohibits this and it prohibits red lining.

No where in this site does it mention Comcast at all but it is sponsored by the cable industry, to which I believe Comcast is a member and is shown in today's commercials on tv in small print at the bottom of the ad.

This bill does do away with the local franchise boards and sets up a state wide franchise board, good or bad, there's arguments on both sides, but what it does is make it easier for competition to offer services on a level playing field and expedites the implementation of these new services. Competition is good.... raise my rates, Comcast does it quite regularly but doesn't raise my service to be equal to the rest of the Bay Area.

I now pause for a commercial break about Tv for All

Laters,
Mikef5

fender4645

06-04-06, 02:29 PM

On the flip side, here's a "supporting" page for 2987: http://www.wewantchoice.com/ca

Mikef5

06-04-06, 02:35 PM

On the flip side, here's a "supporting" page for 2987: http://www.wewantchoice.com/ca
Wow, they've updated the web site, thanks for the link, I forgot to bookmark it the first time.

Laters,
Mikef5

Mikef5

06-04-06, 04:47 PM

We are being gouged by Comcast here in the SF bay area!!

Mikef5, if possible I would love to get Mr. J's thoughts on this, and "just because" ain't going to cut it, I stopped accepting that answer when I was about 10 yrs old. The argument, "just cancel Comcast", is not the point either, the point is why is the SF area treated more harshly financially-wise than other Comcast areas, areas that have a full slate of HD channels, bandwidth and services!

Well, to be really honest with you, I don't think the he can give you a reason or a reason that will sit well with you or me but I can ask. For what it's worth, the last time I heard from Mr. J. was when I posted the last message from him on the 24th and I've not heard from him since. I did ask again about the 550 MHz areas and the status of what is happening with them. So I guess no answer is, nothing is being done about them or it might be he's just to busy right now to give a response but I'll shoot out another email and ask just the same.

Laters,
Mikef5

keenan

06-04-06, 05:57 PM

Thanks, I suspect that you'll get a non-answer sort of response because he's certainly not going to say "we charge that much and how because we can". Reminds me of gasoline prices, they'll charge whatever they can get away with until the market starts to balk at it, and we're a long ways from enough people getting upset about our particular issues. :)

I am particularly interested in why I have to have Expanded Basic along with Limited Basic to have Digital Classic when the regs say that tiered packages must be available separately. For example, you should be able to get HBO with just Limited Basic, in fact it says as much on Comcast's price sheet.

And to extrapolate from that, why do I have to have all 3(Limited, Expanded and Classic just to get a DVR.

If I could get Limited Basic and a DVR, even adding Digital Classic, I would be a very happy camper.

walk

06-04-06, 06:06 PM

Anyone know how to reset a crashed 3412? Is there a reboot switch or something? Or do I just have to pull the power cord (and lose all the guide data...)

The tuner works normally but it won't play any of the recordings on the DVR. If I try to play anything, it just keeps showing whatever was on the tuner, and if I try to change channels, the screen goes blank... There is a blank recording in the list too... no name, dated 1989 or so.. I don't know where that came from, but could be related? I can't delete it either.

mterzich

06-04-06, 06:35 PM

Anyone else having problems with the network in the Fremont area today. My 6412 has been working very well for the past several weeks and then today at 1pm (when I first powered it on) and then again at 3pm it lost the sound (wasn't changing channels or anything) and after the sound was lost, it would take about 10 minutes to change channels. Both times I had to pull the power plug on the 6412 to resolve the problems.

I checked my 6200 on my other HDTV and that is OK. I suspect that I'm getting corrupted TV Guide packets and the 6412 is not handling them very well.

Mikef5

06-04-06, 06:52 PM

keenan

06-04-06, 07:02 PM

fender4645 had asked me if there is a way to update the first post of this thread as SonomaSearcher is no longer posting on the forum. I PM'ed Ken H and he said to create a post with all the changes and he would update the first post.

So...if you're interested, look over the first post and quote the sections that need to be changed and or any relevant info that needs to be added and we can have Ken H update.

I haven't looked at that post in a long time but I've been seeing a lot of new members posting in the thread and it would certainly be beneficial to them.

(My first suggestion is to re-title the thread "Comcast Sucks"...just kidding.. :p :D )

(just looked briefly at the first post and there really is a lot of info that needs to added or corrected)

Mikef5

06-04-06, 07:09 PM

keenan

06-04-06, 07:42 PM

Mikef5

06-04-06, 07:58 PM

You know, the idea of a separate thread for 550 areas has crossed my mind, it would also alleviate having everyone having to read our bitching and whining as well as being more specific to our issues, the Walnut Creek guys made their own thread, maybe we should give it a try..maybe...maybe not...
Gosh, you mean there are people that don't like to hear our bitching..... I'm crushed ;)
I'm sure if it wasn't us bitching there would be something else to take it's place, at least now they know that things are not peachy kean in the Merry old land of OZ and the same thing could happen to their area too.

Laters,
Mikef5

sfhub

06-04-06, 09:37 PM

Well I commend you folks for switching (or partially switching) to dish/d*. That's one of the only effective ways to get change. Make sure you tell Comcast why you are changing.

Brian Conrad

06-04-06, 11:14 PM

And for those contemplating a switch make sure you can see the satellites that are carrying what you want. That may not always be the case.

brentley

06-05-06, 12:48 AM

fender4645

06-05-06, 12:55 AM

I am moving to the oakland hills in a couple of weeks and wanted to know what was available from Comcast? I am a current directtv customer with an HDTivo and am considering switching to comcast. Anyone with feedback etc?

regards
Brentley

I have a friend who lives close to your area (off of Shephard Canyon) and he had mixed results with OTA. He had to bounce the Sutro signals off the canyon which provided spotty reception. He finally gave up and moved to Comcast. I believe you're in a 750MHz area so you'll get all the Bay Area has to offer.

Mikef5

06-05-06, 12:07 PM

Good read in the Fredfa forum Hot off the Press
Here's the link to the original article http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2006-06-04-cable-hdtv_x.htm
Shows most of what's available in HD so you can see what the rest of the country is getting and the Bay Area is not. It also gives the problems faced by cable and the satellite companys and what needs to be done.

Laters,
Mikef5

keenan

06-05-06, 12:21 PM

Yes, it's a good read, Paulgo posted it first in the Comcast Technology thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7774848#post7774848
Comcast New Technology Test - AVS Forum

One of my favorite lines from the article,

Some cable operators, trying to come up with a solution to their bandwidth pinch, have asked other networks "to please wait on launching new (HD channels) until 2007," Pali Capital's Richard Greenfield writes.

Unbelievable. What a self-centered, petty attitude, we don't have the room so nobody else should get to carry the channel(s) either.

Mikef5

06-05-06, 12:33 PM

Yes, it's a good read, Paulgo posted it first in the Comcast Technology thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7774848#post7774848
Comcast New Technology Test - AVS Forum

One of my favorite lines from the article,

Unbelievable. What a self-centered, petty attitude, we don't have the room so nobody else should get to carry the channel(s) either.
You know I saw that also and I had to bite my tongue and try not saying anything, didn't want to sound like I was bitching :D but it does show you that it's not just the 550 MHz areas that are left out but most of the Bay Area is also. I can't believe that almost all the HD channels that were mentioned in that article is available on Dish right now.... and I have to wait another month for the install :)

Laters,
Mikef5

brentley

06-05-06, 02:42 PM

I have a friend who lives close to your area (off of Shephard Canyon) and he had mixed results with OTA. He had to bounce the Sutro signals off the canyon which provided spotty reception. He finally gave up and moved to Comcast. I believe you're in a 750MHz area so you'll get all the Bay Area has to offer.

Hmmm.
I am a bit more north and lower than shepard canyon, right at 13 and Boradway terrace.

What does comcast have to offer these days? I am currently with directtv and have an hdtivo. I am beginning to get the feeling that moving that service is the best choice from a cost and possible performance perspective.

Issue is that the house is not wired for Sat at all and I would be crawling around under the house making the wiring work.

nikeykid

06-05-06, 02:44 PM

i don't mind the bitching, businesses are here to serve our needs and if they can't deliver then damnit lets be loud about it. good article, i understand cable's co's situation a little better now. still doesn't mean we should be passive about it. lets keep the pressure on when we can.

millerwill

06-05-06, 03:19 PM

keenan

06-05-06, 04:03 PM

I can't believe that almost all the HD channels that were mentioned in that article is available on Dish right now.... and I have to wait another month for the install :)

Laters,
Mikef5
And the scuttlebutt is that three of the ones mentioned below are due very soon, sometime in June was what I read over at satelliteguys.

But that wait seems to be over. In the past few months, HGTV, the Food Network, National Geographic and A&E unveiled HD plans.

BTW, it's 1pm and still no call from Comcast...

keenan

06-05-06, 04:08 PM

I think a lot of us have been willing to put up with Comcast because, so far, the HD PQ via cable is significantly better than that from satellite. But if that were to change, I think a lot of us would be out of here.
Yes, basically the local HD. The non-broadcast network stuff on Dish is perfectly fine, much of it even stunning, I'm very happy with it. The local HD from Dish seems to have a few problems but I really haven't spent much time with it yet. I have not seen DirecTV's local HD yet so I have no idea what it's like.

greeno

06-05-06, 06:09 PM

sfhub

06-05-06, 07:28 PM

regarding pq, I still see odd artifacts during a scene change for a split second. last night, e.g., during ocean's eleven, nearly everytime there's a change of scene, cutting from one to new one, you see pixelation pretty much everywhere for a split second and then the picture sharpens up. this was on fox, but I've also seen it to a lesser extent on abc and less still on cbs.

Anyone else see this?
I'm sure it is there for everyone, but depending on display, perception, and viewing distance, people may or may not notice it.

If it really bothers you, you'll want to look forward to HD-DVD or BluRay. I know personally that HD-DVD titles don't have those artifacts in transition/motion scenes. Higher bitrate and VC1 encoding.

keenan

06-05-06, 09:06 PM

If it really bothers you, you'll want to look forward to HD-DVD or BluRay. I know personally that HD-DVD titles don't have those artifacts in transition/motion scenes. Higher bitrate and VC1 encoding.
Indeed, broadcast/cable/sat PQ is now officially in second place behind HD-DVD and no doubt BD, the pendulum has swung back to optical media and I don't see it ever swinging back.

brentley

06-05-06, 09:20 PM

I think a lot of us have been willing to put up with Comcast because, so far, the HD PQ via cable is significantly better than that from satellite. But if that were to change, I think a lot of us would be out of here.

How is the DVR? Is it at least acceptable? I am pretty attached to Tivo (user since 2000). PQ is acceptable for locals? Do they have a full channel line up?

RBurks

06-06-06, 12:01 PM

How is the DVR? Is it at least acceptable? I am pretty attached to Tivo (user since 2000). PQ is acceptable for locals? Do they have a full channel line up?

DVR PQ is equal to broadcast PQ. BUT...it is NO Tivo. I miss my Tivo, but put up with the 6412PIII because I want HD recordings. User Interface is not good, but rumors still of Tivo SW by late this year.

The DVR can record all channels (analog and digital)

On overall PQ my take is artifacts are very channel dependent. I have a Sony SXRD that has a great processor (no artifiacts from Panny 480p DVD - remarkable image really). But certain HD channels, even certain broadcasts, show more pixelation, etc than others. Channels like 720 (INDH2) show ZERO artifacts on most Giants games, while other broadcasts on same channel will show a great deal.

Just some random observations...