San Francisco, CA - Comcast [Text View] - Page 56

Dbower

11-22-06, 01:15 AM

Today I received an e-mail from Motorola that reads as follows:

"Thank you for choosing Motorola! I apologize for any inconvenience you
are having and I will be happy to help you.

This firmware on the DCT3412 should work with HDMI switching. I don't
see any problems with that. The DCT 3412 will give a Copy Protection
error when the firmware has not been updated to 12.35 for later.

You can visit our web site at xxx to access your
user's guide and frequently asked questions about your product. Thank
you for choosing Motorola.

Sincerely,

Angela Dawley
Motorola Email Support"

Any comments? Does it work? It would be a real downer to spend a $1000 on a Denon and the HDMI switching won't work.

Thanks in advance for any honest feedback.

The new software does seem to support HDMI (from Mot to Denon 3806 to Pioneer). But I have found a different issue with the Mot box that I haven't heard of here.

If the TV is turned off before the Denon, the loss of HDMI handshake between the TV and the Denon is carried by the Denon to the STB. Which is all fine and good except that on subsequent power up of the Denon, the STB assumes this is a new HDMI connection and promptly reverts to the default HDMI settings (1080i and 4:3 override). Of course this requires that I power down the STB, hit menu, and set it up again (and again). This is REALLY dumb.

I have somewhat mitigated this by setting the power off macro to shut off the Denon first. But if the Pioneer ever gets turned off first, the defaults come back.

It appears I'm back to component out to the Denon. Doesn't make a diff in PQ that I can tell, but this is really bad form! What's the point of HDMI if the software is so paranoid about protecting Hollywood's paranoia that the whole thing become useless?

-Dave

GameGod

11-22-06, 02:23 AM

Anybody else recording the episode of House tonight using firewire output have any issues? My scheduled recording failed, but checking the channel now shows CCI to be 0x00. I am wondering if they turned it on for the duration of the show.

Thanks.

stanj

11-22-06, 02:43 AM

jondoms

11-22-06, 04:22 AM

It's been a long time that I checked back this forum. Is anybody know if Comcast HDTV is available in North San Jose (95133) area?

Thanks

Heh with my QAM Tuner the only thing I see is KRON4HD.
I think my signal to the upstairs is week.

Anyone know if Comcast would come out and boost my signal?

Also anyone else in the 95133 San Jose area code get any other HD channels besides KRON? Thanks.

keenan

11-22-06, 05:46 AM

Guess it never ends.....

----------------------------------------------------------------
Comcast to hike rates 5.9%
By Sarah Jane Tribble
Mercury News
"More than a million Bay Area Comcast customers will watch their monthly cable bills jump nearly 6 percent in January, adding an average of $3.30 a month to their standard cable packages.

Comcast, the area's dominant cable provider, has announced a rate increase annually the past three years, company spokesman Andrew Johnson said today.

``We're continuing to reinvest in our network,'' Johnson said, adding that the company has made a $200 million investment to improve product offerings and services.

Comcast's standard cable package rates will increase 5.9 percent, or 11 cents a day, for 2007. Rates increased 6.9 percent in 2006 and 5.7 percent in 2005."

Of course not, gotta pay for all those HD channels the non-550 areas get. I'm still literally flabbergasted at the disparity in what 550 areas get for that $9.95 per month for Digital Classic compared to non-550 areas, it's ridiculous.

dr1394

11-22-06, 08:03 AM

Didn't try tonight's episode, but I haven't been able to record House via Firewire for several weeks now. I think KTVU implements the CCI flag for certain shows (probably all the network HD shows), but doesn't leave it on all the time like KPIX.
The only flag available for DTV stations is the "Broadcast Flag" or redistribution control descriptor. Since the Broadcast Flag was repealed, DTV stations shouldn't be using it and cable STB's shouldn't be honoring it.

The Broadcast Flag is sent in PSIP. Note that the two DTV stations in question, KTVU and KPIX, have PSIP remapping on Comcast.

I'll take a look at some KTVU-DT and KPIX-DT bitstreams tomorrow and see if they contain Broadcast Flags.

What I believe is going on here is that although the Broadcast Flag was repealed at the last minute, everyone (PSIP vendors and STB manufacturers) had their implemention ready to go. It was just never taken out or disabled after the repeal.

Ron

GameGod

11-22-06, 10:23 AM

The only flag available for DTV stations is the "Broadcast Flag" or redistribution control descriptor. Since the Broadcast Flag was repealed, DTV stations shouldn't be using it and cable STB's shouldn't be honoring it.

The Broadcast Flag is sent in PSIP. Note that the two DTV stations in question, KTVU and KPIX, have PSIP remapping on Comcast.

I'll take a look at some KTVU-DT and KPIX-DT bitstreams tomorrow and see if they contain Broadcast Flags.

What I believe is going on here is that although the Broadcast Flag was repealed at the last minute, everyone (PSIP vendors and STB manufacturers) had their implemention ready to go. It was just never taken out or disabled after the repeal.

Ron

I know for a fact that KPIX-HD (705) has CCI set to 0x02 all the time. So if they aren't supposed to be doing this, but they are, what recourse do we have to make them not do it? I've emailed KPIX and talked to Comcast and havent seen anything change at all.

Also, I recorded some stuff off of KTVU-HD (702) after House and that recorded fine, so I'm pretty sure only House had the CCI set.

Thanks.

D-Real

11-22-06, 12:56 PM

Of course not, gotta pay for all those HD channels the non-550 areas get. I'm still literally flabbergasted at the disparity in what 550 areas get for that $9.95 per month for Digital Classic compared to non-550 areas, it's ridiculous.

What strikes me as unbelievable is that Comcast is quoted saying they are continuing to reinvest in the network. What network is this? I think it is time that Comcast starts shedding some light about their plans for the 550 areas. If they are going to hike up the prices, we need to demand that we get more insight into their plans. I'm tired of Comcast redlining my area and I want some real answers.

GameGod

11-22-06, 05:47 PM

I just talked to a couple of guys at the engineering division at KTVU and KPIX. The interesting thing was that both claimed that they weren't setting the CCI information at the local level and that it was being sent down that way. They've both promised to look into it and I will call them back on Mon/Tue to follow up. So, the question is, if this a network issue and not local, other people besides the us in the Bay Area should be seeing this particular problem, right?

Thanks.

mterzich

11-22-06, 06:23 PM

btwyx

11-22-06, 06:24 PM

I have it also on channel 727 in Rohnert Park, and have the same not authorized message.Having just caught up with this thread after several weeks of not getting new post notifications, I've got UHD on 727 in Mountan View, its coming through nicely. My S3 doesn't have guide data for it though so I just poked TiVo's line up people.

UHD was one of the few things I was going to miss moving from DirecTV. (That and decent service, and SD quality.)

ayewbf

11-22-06, 07:10 PM

Having just caught up with this thread after several weeks of not getting new post notifications, I've got UHD on 727 in Mountan View, its coming through nicely. My S3 doesn't have guide data for it though so I just poked TiVo's line up people.Thanks for doing that. I wonder why it's been taking so long for the guide data for this to get corrected given that this is tivo's own home viewing area. Don't they watch TV?UHD was one of the few things I was going to miss moving from DirecTV. (That and decent service, and SD quality.)Did you get comcast to enable receipt of digital simulcast on your cablecards so that you're not recording analog SD? I haven't noticed a difference in quality between comcast SD and directv SD up here.

keenan

11-22-06, 08:08 PM

From the Sonoma County Press Democrat.

Comcast raising rates - again

By Nathan Halverson
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT

Comcast Corp. announced Tuesday it will raise cable TV rates in Sonoma County for the sixth time in as many years, continuing a run-up that has outpaced inflation and angered customers.

See story below

The rate increase, which averages 5.86 percent across the Bay Area and takes effect Jan. 1, is the latest in a series of rate hikes that have led to a 45 percent jump in cable TV rates since 2001.

Comcast said it is raising rates to reflect the increased value of its services. The Philadelphia-based cable company will spend $200 million next year to upgrade its cable network in the Bay Area, roll out advanced services and improve customer service, said Andrew Johnson, vice president of communications for Comcast.

The price of Comcast's most popular TV package, its 66-channel Standard Cable service, will increase about 11 cents a day, or about $3 more a month, Johnson said. Comcast will not increase rates for its high-speed Internet or Digital Voice services.

But many Sonoma County residents have grown weary of the rate hikes, which have soared more than four times faster than inflation since 2000.

"The whole thing is ludicrous," said Comcast subscriber Betty Pannell, 80, who lives off Social Security in a low-income senior center in Windsor. The rate hikes mean cutting back on expenditures such as driving and food, she said.

"As seniors, we are down to where we can't do much in life, and this is one of our few enjoyments," Pannell said.

Comcast cable rates have climbed 45 percent in the past six years, from an average $34.40 in Santa Rosa in 2001 to a projected $50.01 in 2007. By comparison, inflation has increased 10 percent since 2000.

For people in Santa Rosa, the six-year string of rate increases has not resulted in an upgrade to the local network, which is one of the oldest in the Bay Area. The older network means people in Santa Rosa do not have video-on-demand service, and get fewer channels while paying similar rates to subscribers in cities such as Healdsburg and Petaluma.

Johnson declined to say if Santa Rosa's cable network would be upgraded next year.

"But we are aware of the situation in Santa Rosa," he said.

Eric McHenry, the chief technology officer for Santa Rosa, said Comcast has been talking with the city about an upgrade, but nothing is decided.

Meanwhile, a new competitor to Comcast is planning to enter the Santa Rosa market next year.

AT&T intends to start building a fiber optic network in Santa Rosa that would allow it to provide TV service in addition to its traditional phone and Internet products.

AT&T has begun submitting permit requests to install the network, which is expected to take several years to complete. Video service to some parts of the city could begin next year. The company has not disclosed the cost of its new U-verse service.

For now, satellite provides the only TVservice alternative to Comcast. The Dish Network offers 60 channels for $29.99 and DirectTV offers 155 channels for $44.99 a month, but consumers must purchase or lease additional equipment such as receivers.

To minimize the pain of the pending rate hike, Comcast consumers can downgrade their cable services to basic cable, which currently costs $16.79 in Santa Rosa and would increase 98 cents a month.

Pannell said she was sticking with her standard cable package for now.

"That's my companionship. Having that TV on is my company," said Pannell, who was widowed more than a decade ago.

http://www1.pressdemocrat.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061122/NEWS/611220306/1033/NEWS01
Comcast raising rates - again | Santa Rosa Press Democrat // News for California's North Bay and Redwood Empire

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm glad they're aware of the situation in Santa Rosa, that and a few bucks will get you a burger at McDonalds.

Love the part about easing the pain of the increase by just getting a lower price/less channel subscription. :rolleyes:

keenan

11-22-06, 09:32 PM

What strikes me as unbelievable is that Comcast is quoted saying they are continuing to reinvest in the network. What network is this? I think it is time that Comcast starts shedding some light about their plans for the 550 areas. If they are going to hike up the prices, we need to demand that we get more insight into their plans. I'm tired of Comcast redlining my area and I want some real answers.
The only thing to do is to complain loudly and often to your local franchise authority. What Comcast is doing is not really a secret. In many of these areas where the agreements are due for renewal, or have past renewal and the city and Comcast have not come to an agreement, Comcast is playing a waiting game until such point that don't have to deal the local franchise authority anymore. Sort of like putting off a purchase until it goes on sale, or you can buy it wholesale.

Santa Rosa is the 5th or 6th largest city in the bay area, with over 66,000 Comcast subs and we are only a half-step above the worst system in the bay are(don't recall which city it is). That system and Santa Rosa are among the worst Comcast systems in the country as far as channels, services, etc.

btwyx

11-22-06, 09:36 PM

Did you get comcast to enable receipt of digital simulcast on your cablecards so that you're not recording analog SD? I haven't noticed a difference in quality between comcast SD and directv SD up here.I managed to get ADS turned on (thanks to people here), but SD looks worse on Comcast to me than D*.

fender4645

11-22-06, 10:51 PM

AT&T intends to start building a fiber optic network in Santa Rosa that would allow it to provide TV service in addition to its traditional phone and Internet products.

AT&T has begun submitting permit requests to install the network, which is expected to take several years to complete. Video service to some parts of the city could begin next year. The company has not disclosed the cost of its new U-verse service.

That's good news for you Santa Rosaeans about AT&T. Although if Comcast uses it as an excuse not to build out (i.e. they'll just "give" the area to AT&T), it could end up being worse due to the way U-verse works (only 4 simultaneous channels, 1 HD).

dr1394

11-23-06, 02:00 AM

I know for a fact that KPIX-HD (705) has CCI set to 0x02 all the time. So if they aren't supposed to be doing this, but they are, what recourse do we have to make them not do it? I've emailed KPIX and talked to Comcast and havent seen anything change at all.

Also, I recorded some stuff off of KTVU-HD (702) after House and that recorded fine, so I'm pretty sure only House had the CCI set.

Thanks.
I took a look at some bitstreams tonight. There are "Broadcast Flags" in KTVU-DT, KPIX-DT and KGO-DT bitstreams.

For KTVU, the Broadcast Flag goes away after they switch from network to local. This would agree with your statement that "House" was not recordable, but you could record after "House".

KTVU during the movie (9:37pm) :

program descriptor = 0x0c, 0x04, 0x80, 0xb4, 0x81, 0x68
program descriptor = 0x0e, 0x03, 0xc0, 0xa2, 0x92
program descriptor = 0x05, 0x04, 0x47, 0x41, 0x39, 0x34
program descriptor = 0x10, 0x06, 0xc0, 0xa2, 0x92, 0xc0, 0x08, 0x00
program descriptor = 0x05, 0x04, 0x43, 0x55, 0x45, 0x49
program descriptor = 0xaa, 0x00 <---------------------- Broadcast Flag !!!!!!!
Video PID = 49 <0x0031>, type = 0x02
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x02, 0x03, 0x22, 0x85, 0x5f
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x52, 0x01, 0x07
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x0e, 0x03, 0xc0, 0x96, 0x1a
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x02
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x86, 0x07, 0xe1, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0xc1, 0x3f, 0xff
Audio PID = 52 <0x0034>, type = 0x81
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x05, 0x04, 0x41, 0x43, 0x2d, 0x33
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x81, 0x03, 0x08, 0x3c, 0x05
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x0a, 0x04, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x52, 0x01, 0x91
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x0e, 0x03, 0xc0, 0x04, 0xeb

KTVU after the movie (10:21pm) :

program descriptor = 0x05, 0x04, 0x47, 0x41, 0x39, 0x34
Video PID = 49 <0x0031>, type = 0x02
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x11, 0x01, 0xff
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x10, 0x06, 0xc0, 0xbd, 0x62, 0xc0, 0x08, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x02
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x86, 0x07, 0xe1, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0xc1, 0x3f, 0xff
Audio PID = 52 <0x0034>, type = 0x81
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x05, 0x04, 0x41, 0x43, 0x2d, 0x33
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x81, 0x08, 0x08, 0x38, 0x05, 0xff, 0x1f, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x0a, 0x04, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0x00

Note that the Broadcast Flag isn't present during the local feed.

In order for all the data points to line up, I would expect KGO-DT is also not recordable. Is this the case? If not, then something else is going on. The next step would be to capture the streams with a QAM capture card and dump the CCI for these stations. Anyone reading this thread capable of recording the entire 38 Mbps QAM stream?

KGO-DT (10:51 pm) :

program descriptor = 0x05, 0x04, 0x47, 0x41, 0x39, 0x34
program descriptor = 0x10, 0x06, 0xc0, 0xaf, 0xc8, 0xc0, 0x02, 0x00
program descriptor = 0xa3, 0x10, 0x01, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00, 0x08, 0x6b, 0x67, 0x6f, 0x20, 0x68, 0x64, 0x74, 0x76
program descriptor = 0xaa, 0x01, 0xff <---------------------- Broadcast Flag !!!!!!!
Video PID = 49 <0x0031>, type = 0x02
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x02, 0x03, 0x3a, 0x44, 0x5f
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x02
Audio PID = 52 <0x0034>, type = 0x81
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x05, 0x04, 0x41, 0x43, 0x2d, 0x33
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x81, 0x06, 0x08, 0x38, 0x05, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x0a, 0x04, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x01

There are no descriptors in the KNTV-DT bitstream. I would expect KNTV-DT is always recordable. KQED has the ATSC descriptor, but no others. Should also be recordable.

Ron

GameGod

11-23-06, 02:19 AM

I took a look at some bitstreams tonight. There are "Broadcast Flags" in KTVU-DT, KPIX-DT and KGO-DT bitstreams.

For KTVU, the Broadcast Flag goes away after they switch from network to local. This would agree with your statement that "House" was not recordable, but you could record after "House".

KTVU during the movie (9:37pm) :

program descriptor = 0x0c, 0x04, 0x80, 0xb4, 0x81, 0x68
program descriptor = 0x0e, 0x03, 0xc0, 0xa2, 0x92
program descriptor = 0x05, 0x04, 0x47, 0x41, 0x39, 0x34
program descriptor = 0x10, 0x06, 0xc0, 0xa2, 0x92, 0xc0, 0x08, 0x00
program descriptor = 0x05, 0x04, 0x43, 0x55, 0x45, 0x49
program descriptor = 0xaa, 0x00 <---------------------- Broadcast Flag !!!!!!!
Video PID = 49 <0x0031>, type = 0x02
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x02, 0x03, 0x22, 0x85, 0x5f
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x52, 0x01, 0x07
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x0e, 0x03, 0xc0, 0x96, 0x1a
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x02
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x86, 0x07, 0xe1, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0xc1, 0x3f, 0xff
Audio PID = 52 <0x0034>, type = 0x81
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x05, 0x04, 0x41, 0x43, 0x2d, 0x33
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x81, 0x03, 0x08, 0x3c, 0x05
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x0a, 0x04, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x52, 0x01, 0x91
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x0e, 0x03, 0xc0, 0x04, 0xeb

KTVU after the movie (10:21pm) :

program descriptor = 0x05, 0x04, 0x47, 0x41, 0x39, 0x34
Video PID = 49 <0x0031>, type = 0x02
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x11, 0x01, 0xff
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x10, 0x06, 0xc0, 0xbd, 0x62, 0xc0, 0x08, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x02
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x86, 0x07, 0xe1, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0xc1, 0x3f, 0xff
Audio PID = 52 <0x0034>, type = 0x81
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x05, 0x04, 0x41, 0x43, 0x2d, 0x33
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x81, 0x08, 0x08, 0x38, 0x05, 0xff, 0x1f, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x0a, 0x04, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0x00

Note that the Broadcast Flag isn't present during the local feed.

In order for all the data points to line up, I would expect KGO-DT is also not recordable. Is this the case? If not, then something else is going on. The next step would be to capture the streams with a QAM capture card and dump the CCI for these stations. Anyone reading this thread capable of recording the entire 38 Mbps QAM stream?

KGO-DT (10:51 pm) :

program descriptor = 0x05, 0x04, 0x47, 0x41, 0x39, 0x34
program descriptor = 0x10, 0x06, 0xc0, 0xaf, 0xc8, 0xc0, 0x02, 0x00
program descriptor = 0xa3, 0x10, 0x01, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00, 0x08, 0x6b, 0x67, 0x6f, 0x20, 0x68, 0x64, 0x74, 0x76
program descriptor = 0xaa, 0x01, 0xff <---------------------- Broadcast Flag !!!!!!!
Video PID = 49 <0x0031>, type = 0x02
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x02, 0x03, 0x3a, 0x44, 0x5f
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x02
Audio PID = 52 <0x0034>, type = 0x81
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x05, 0x04, 0x41, 0x43, 0x2d, 0x33
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x81, 0x06, 0x08, 0x38, 0x05, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x0a, 0x04, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x01

There are no descriptors in the KNTV-DT bitstream. I would expect KNTV-DT is always recordable. KQED has the ATSC descriptor, but no others. Should also be recordable.

Ron

Thanks for the detailed analysis. I was able to record "DayBreak" on KGO-DT thru firewire, that was broadcast between 21:00 and 22:00 tonight. Perhaps they didn't turn it on for that show? I checked the diagnostic menu for KTVU during the Steve Martin movie and indeed CCI was set to 0x02 during it and reset to 0x00 afterwards.

I have a Fusion card that can record QAM, so if you can tell me what I need to do, I will try and get whatever data you need.

TPeterson

11-23-06, 03:03 AM

I have a Fusion card that can record QAM, so if you can tell me what I need to do, I will try and get whatever data you need.You need to use the DViCo utility TSBrowser2 from their ftp site to capture the full 38 Mbps TS on QAM because the FusionHDTV app will only capture the tuned program.

Use TSBrowser2 to capture a minute or two of the streams of interest during times when you can and cannot record from Firewire and then use TSReader to analyze them and post the HTML exported summaries as attachments here and we'll be able to see the Broadcast flag statuses.

walk

11-23-06, 03:12 AM

Can you check the CCI status on page 6 (Current Channel Status) in the service/diagnostics menu after you've tuned to 705 on the box and see if its set to 0x02. If it is, then you're seeing the same CCI issue affecting the rest of us.
Yes CCI=0x02 on ch 705.

From my experience, keep in mind I'm using a windows xp computer to do the recording, not a DVHS, the channels fall into 3 categories..

1. recordable all the time (Cartoon ch 54, record stuff from here all the time, never once seen it fail to work).
2. recordable never (CBS-HD, INHD, HBO, etc..)
3. recordable sometimes, other times not (ABC-HD).

Good news though, at least right now... all the new channels, TNT-HD, MHD, and UHD all seem to be recordable most of the time. I snagged Three Kings (love that movie) off TNT-HD, even edited with commercials... some real nice quality visuals, and U-571 from UHD (unedited? no commercials either..) Have not tried Battlestar Galactica yet...

dr1394

11-23-06, 03:40 AM

Thanks for the detailed analysis. I was able to record "DayBreak" on KGO-DT thru firewire, that was broadcast between 21:00 and 22:00 tonight.
Well, that blows my theory. KGO-DT was sending a Broadcast Flag during that program.

KGO-DT (21:24)

program descriptor = 0x05, 0x04, 0x47, 0x41, 0x39, 0x34
program descriptor = 0x10, 0x06, 0xc0, 0xaf, 0xc8, 0xc0, 0x02, 0x00
program descriptor = 0xa3, 0x10, 0x01, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00, 0x08, 0x6b, 0x67, 0x6f, 0x20, 0x68, 0x64, 0x74, 0x76
program descriptor = 0xaa, 0x01, 0xff <-------------------- Broadcast Flag!!!
Video PID = 49 <0x0031>, type = 0x02
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x02, 0x03, 0x3a, 0x44, 0x5f
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x02
Audio PID = 52 <0x0034>, type = 0x81
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x05, 0x04, 0x41, 0x43, 0x2d, 0x33
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x81, 0x06, 0x08, 0x38, 0x05, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x0a, 0x04, 0x65, 0x6e, 0x67, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x01

If the Broadcast Flag had actually been implemented by broadcasters, it must also appear in the PSIP entries for each program. The flag in just the PMT (like above) is not enough. I've not seen any bitstream with the Broadcast Flag in the EIT.

So the plot thickens. The QAM captures will contain the actual CCI descriptor, so it should be interesting. Thanx to TPeterson for the Fusion details.

Ron

ed94080

11-23-06, 03:43 AM

I just called Comcast to add a 3rd HD DVR for a bedroom TV ( I currently have one HD DVR and one just HD box which alone without the DVR is another $11.95 for some reason) and they want to charge me another $16.95 a month. I think that's crazy. Strange that the first one is only $9.95, you would think I would get a volume discount per box rather than the opposite and also given that I have the Digital Silver package and high speed Internet, etc. Is there an alternative?

I won't be able to get a dish where I live, but my building does have RCN I believe. I priced it out on their website and with 3 HD DVRS, more movie channels,, and 10MBps high speed Internet AND Unlimited monthly phone services with 5 features it's still $40 a month cheaper than Comcast...

Thinking about making the switch... any of you out there use RCN in the SF Bay Area? What do you think? The one thing I will say about Comcast is that my service never goes out (both cable and Internet), however...

thanks for any and all insights...

Barovelli

11-23-06, 03:58 AM

I won't be able to get a dish where I live, but my building does have RCN I believe. I priced it out on their website and with 3 HD DVRS, more movie channels,, and 10MBps high speed Internet AND Unlimited monthly phone services with 5 features it's still $40 a month cheaper than Comcast...

RCN is looking to sell, I read. Might turn into Verizon. Might turn into Comcast. Might roll on.

http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6393311.html

GameGod

11-23-06, 11:20 AM

You need to use the DViCo utility TSBrowser2 from their ftp site to capture the full 38 Mbps TS on QAM because the FusionHDTV app will only capture the tuned program.

Use TSBrowser2 to capture a minute or two of the streams of interest during times when you can and cannot record from Firewire and then use TSReader to analyze them and post the HTML exported summaries as attachments here and we'll be able to see the Broadcast flag statuses.
Thanks TPeterson. I found the app by searching on the forums but the post with the details on using it is archived and I am unable to access it.

Can you tell me what needs to be done? I tried scanning, but it only seem to list channels about 100? I tried tuning the Fusion to the channel and then starting up the TSBrowser2 app, but that still doesn't seem to pick up the KPIX channel? :confused:

Edit:
TSBrower2 version 1.01 Build 3410.

TPeterson

11-23-06, 12:00 PM

GameGod

11-23-06, 01:19 PM

The most important thing is to put the TSBrowser2.exe into the FusionHDTV Program Files folder (but it sounds as though you got that far). Although you can scan for channels, you don't need to since you already have the list from FusionHDTV to tell you the rf channel numbers of interest (probably 79, 111, 116, and 117). Then you set the various parameters in TSB2 for correct Fusion card model, US standards, 256QAM, and full-TS capture. You can ignore most of the settings, since you're just recording and not trying to play the content. Finally, define a capture file name & path, tune one of the relevant rf channels, and click on the Record button.

Great info. Didn't realize that "channel" was actually the RF number. D'uh!
Okay, does "Single TS file" option make a difference? Also I've download TSReader Lite. So what do I do next? What is the relevant info that is needed?

Thanks.

Edit:
Never mind. I think I got it. Here's the report from TSReader on RF 79. Interestingly it has KPIX and KTVU on the same frequency and those are the only two channels that seem to be having this "issue" at this time.

SI Parsing by TSReader 2.7.45bProgram Association Table
PAT Version Number: 18
Transport Stream ID: 10365 (0x287d)

PMT PID 49 (0x0031) - Program 1 KPIX DT
PMT PID 48 (0x0030) - Program 2 KTVUHD

Program Map Table(s)
Program Number: 1 KPIX DT
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x47413934 (GA94)
Descriptor: Smoothing Buffer Descriptor
SB Leak Rate: 45000 SB Size: 512
Descriptor: ATSC Component Name Descriptor
Component Name: KPIX-DT
Descriptor: ATSC Redistribution Control Descriptor
ff .

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 2112 (0x0840)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 38.810 Mbps Resolution 1920 x 1080i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0
Descriptor: Video Stream Descriptor
Multiple frame rate flag: False
Frame rate: 29.97¼
MPEG-1 only flag: False
Constrained paramter flag: True
Still picture flag: False
Descriptor: Data Stream Alignment Descriptor
Alignment type: video access unit

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 2113 (0x0841)
AC3: Bitrate 384 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 3/2 5 L, C, R, SL, SR
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x41432d33 (AC-3)
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined
Descriptor: Data Stream Alignment Descriptor
Alignment type: slice, or video access unit

Program Number: 2 KTVUHD
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x47413934 (GA94)

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 2048 (0x0800)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 38.810 Mbps Resolution 1280 x 720p
MPEG Video: Framerate 59.94 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0
Descriptor: STD Descriptor
Leak Valid Flag: 1
Descriptor: Smoothing Buffer Descriptor
SB Leak Rate: 48482 SB Size: 2048
Descriptor: Data Stream Alignment Descriptor
Alignment type: video access unit
Descriptor: ATSC Caption Service Descriptor
ATSC Caption Service Descriptor:
Language: eng Format: Captions service 1

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 2049 (0x0801)
AC3: Bitrate 384 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 3/2 5 L, C, R, SL, SR
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x41432d33 (AC-3)
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined

Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table
Channel 1
Service Name: KPIX DT
TSID: 10365 (0x287d)
Channel Number: 5.1
Carrier Frequency: 624000000
Modulation Mode: SCTE_mode_2
Source ID: 36

Channel 2
Service Name: KTVUHD
TSID: 10365 (0x287d)
Channel Number: 2.1
Carrier Frequency: 624000000
Modulation Mode: SCTE_mode_2
Source ID: 38

Event Information Table
MPEG-2 Statistics
TableSections ProcessedCRC Errors
PAT6380
CAT00
PMT50
ETT00
PSIP1.6k0
EIT00

Continuity errors: 0
TEI errors: 0
Calculated multiplex rate: 38847265 bps

General Information
Source: Transport Stream File
Tuner: n/a
Signal: n/a
Network Type: ATSC
Run Time: 000:00:55

PID Usage Chart
0x0000 (0.02% ~ 0.01 Mbps)

0x0000 MPEG-2 Program Assocation Table
0x0030 (0.05% ~ 0.02 Mbps)

0x0030 MPEG-2 PMT for program 2
0x0031 (0.08% ~ 0.03 Mbps)

0x0031 MPEG-2 PMT for program 1
0x0800 (22.51% - 8.74 Mbps)

0x0800 MPEG-2 Video for program 2
0x0801 (1.02% ~ 0.40 Mbps)

0x0801 AC-3 Audio for program 2
0x0840 (40.93% - 15.90 Mbps)

0x0840 MPEG-2 Video for program 1
0x0841 (1.09% ~ 0.42 Mbps)

0x0841 AC-3 Audio for program 1
0x1800 (0.02% ~ 0.01 Mbps)

0x1800 ATSC EIT-0
0x1801 (0.00% ~ 0.00 Mbps)

0x1801 ATSC EIT-1
0x1802 (0.00% ~ 0.00 Mbps)

0x1802 ATSC EIT-2
0x1803 (0.00% ~ 0.00 Mbps)

0x1803 ATSC EIT-3
0x1ffb (0.04% ~ 0.02 Mbps)

0x1ffb ATSC Base PID (TVCT, MGT, RT, STT)
0x1fff (34.25% ~ 13.30 Mbps)

0x1fff MPEG-2 NULL Packet

TPeterson

11-23-06, 01:30 PM

On the version I have, it says "Single TS" meaning that it deletes all but one program from recordings. Don't check that box, because the whole point of this exercise is to inspect the whole of the PSIP, which would be stripped off in a "Single TS" recording.

IIRC, TSReader comes in an installer package to create a Program Files folder and copy the executables. But if that's not right, create one yourself and unzip the TSRL files to it. Once you've installed it, you just run it, configure it for playing .tp files, and point it to one of your clips. After it's played through the clip, you select from the Export menu to Export all to an HTM file. Then you'll have to zip it (or rename it ".txt") to attach it to this thread. (You need to restart TSRL for each file you process)

TPeterson

11-23-06, 01:36 PM

I see that you got it while I was typing....

Ron, it appears to me that only KPIX has a BF (at least right now) associated with it and that KTVU has none. Am I missing it?

GameGod

11-23-06, 01:45 PM

I see that you got it while I was typing....

Ron, it appears to me that only KPIX has a BF (at least right now) associated with it and that KTVU has none. Am I missing it?
Thanks :)

From what I see, is this what you're talking about?
Constrained paramter flag: True

That would make sense, since only KPIX is CCI 0x02 all the time, and KTVU turns it on during primetime.

raghu1111

11-23-06, 03:26 PM

jwpottberg

11-23-06, 03:53 PM

Anybody in Sunnyvale seeing any problems w/pixellation, breakups in digital picture and sound last night and today? It appears to me that the problem I saw last month (post 13292) has returned, including the matching sporadic white horiz lines on analog channels. (These problems cleared up for me as of 10/25 and things were fine until last night.) Looking to see if it's another widespread problem...

Jim in Sunnyvale

sfhub

11-23-06, 05:44 PM

Thanks :)

From what I see, is this what you're talking about?
Constrained paramter flag: True

I believe this is what they are referring to:

Descriptor: ATSC Redistribution Control Descriptor
ff .

TPeterson

11-23-06, 06:13 PM

What hub said.

GameGod

11-23-06, 06:59 PM

I believe this is what they are referring to:

Descriptor: ATSC Redistribution Control Descriptor
ff .

Ah, thank you. Googling for that term turned up the original BPDG report on eff.org and made for some interesting, though chilling reading.

Anyways, what are the next steps? So, since the broadcast flag was repealed, this shouldn't be set in the stream, correct? So what can we do to make KPIX/KTVU fix this problem?

Thanks.

dr1394

11-23-06, 09:20 PM

Anyways, what are the next steps? So, since the broadcast flag was repealed, this shouldn't be set in the stream, correct? So what can we do to make KPIX/KTVU fix this problem?

Thanks.
The next step is to verify that the ATSC Redistribution Control Descriptor is actually controlling the STB 1394 output. From last night, it seems that KGO-DT had the descriptor in the OTA bitstream, but was still recordable. To verify, QAM captures of KGO-DT while it is recordable and not recordable on 1394 would be good to try.

I was also hoping that TSReader would show the DTCP descriptor in the streams. At work, I've been developing a new product for cable head-ends. The customer has sent me some 54 Mbps Transport Streams captured from a network satellite downlink, and each program has a DTCP descriptor in the PMT. I was under the impression that this descriptor was passed on by the cable head-end, but to be honest, I am not an expert on exactly how things work at head-ends (although I'm learning stuff on this project).

Just to make sure TSReader is not overlooking the DTCP descriptor (it's not part of ATSC), I'd like to look at the QAM streams with my tools. GameGod, I'll PM you with my e-mail address (but I won't be able to look at them until tomorrow).

Ron

GameGod

11-23-06, 10:16 PM

The next step is to verify that the ATSC Redistribution Control Descriptor is actually controlling the STB 1394 output. From last night, it seems that KGO-DT had the descriptor in the OTA bitstream, but was still recordable. To verify, QAM captures of KGO-DT while it is recordable and not recordable on 1394 would be good to try.

Okay, I'll capture some streams today during prime time and see if CCI is turned on. So far, I haven't had any problems with KGO, though.

<snip>Just to make sure TSReader is not overlooking the DTCP descriptor (it's not part of ATSC), I'd like to look at the QAM streams with my tools. GameGod, I'll PM you with my e-mail address (but I won't be able to look at them until tomorrow).

Ron

That's cool. Hopefully you'll be able to determine what exactly is causing the STB to not send the output to the firewire ports.

Thanks.

GameGod

11-23-06, 10:31 PM

Just for grins, I recorded the entire KGO-DT stream and generated the report using TSRL. To my untrained eye, it looks like these stations don't have the broadcast flag being sent. If that's true, then it would explain why I can capture KGO without issues and your original hypothesis would still be true.

Here's the report:

SI Parsing by TSReader 2.7.45bProgram Association Table
PAT Version Number: 12
Transport Stream ID: 10361 (0x2879)

PMT PID 51 (0x0033) - Program 1 KGO-DT
PMT PID 53 (0x0035) - Program 2 KQED-HD
PMT PID 54 (0x0036) - Program 3 ENCORE
PMT PID 55 (0x0037) - Program 4
PMT PID 48 (0x0030) - Program 5
PMT PID 49 (0x0031) - Program 6
PMT PID 50 (0x0032) - Program 7 KGO-DT
PMT PID 52 (0x0034) - Program 8 KGO DT

Program Map Table(s)
Program Number: 1 KGO-DT

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 2240 (0x08c0)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 38.810 Mbps Resolution 1280 x 720p
MPEG Video: Framerate 59.94 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 2241 (0x08c1)
AC3: Bitrate 384 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 3/2 5 L, C, R, SL, SR
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined

Program Number: 2 KQED-HD

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 2368 (0x0940)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 38.810 Mbps Resolution 1920 x 1080i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 2369 (0x0941)
AC3: Bitrate 384 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 2370 (0x0942)
AC3: Bitrate 192 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: fra
Audio type: undefined

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 2371 (0x0943)
AC3: Bitrate 192 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: esl
Audio type: undefined

Program Number: 3 ENCORE

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 2432 (0x0980)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 15.000 Mbps Resolution 704 x 480i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 4:3 Chroma Format 4:2:0

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 2433 (0x0981)
AC3: Bitrate 192 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 2434 (0x0982)
AC3: Bitrate 192 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: fra
Audio type: undefined

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 2435 (0x0983)
AC3: Bitrate 192 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: esl
Audio type: undefined

Reserved DescriptorDescriptor: ISO/IEC 13818-1 Reserved Descriptor: 0x32
33 a0 01 00 00 00 00 00 32 91 85 20 00 00 00 00 3.......2.. ....
00 00 00 01 0a 00 01 01 03 00 01 20 01 01 03 00 ........... ....
01 20 c0 01 00 0c ce b2 be ff ff ff ff ff ff ff . ..............
ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ................
ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ................
ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ................
ff ff ff 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
00 00 00 00 00 1a 00 1a 00 cf 01 0c 02 00 32 00 ..............2.

Reserved DescriptorDescriptor: User Private Descriptor: 0xff
ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ................
ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ................
ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ................
ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ................
ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ................
ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ................
ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ................
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
00 00 56 00 1a 00 e5 01 0c 02 20 ce 22 00 2d 07 ..V....... .".-.
0a b1 00 00 00 00 39 00 00 00 0f 00 00 00 00 00 ......9.........
00 00 00 00 00 40 06 00 00 00 00 00 00 40 06 00 .....@.......@..
00 00 00 00 00 40 fe ff ff ff 00 00 00 40 fe ff .....@.......@..
ff ff 00 00 f0 00 00 00 30 00 1e ff 20 1f 00 00 ........0... ...
9c 7b 71 80 0e 00 50 00 50 00 50 00 50 00 50 00 .{q...P.P.P.P.P.
50 00 50 00 50 00 50 00 50 00 50 00 50 00 50 P.P.P.P.P.P.P.P

Reserved DescriptorDescriptor: ISO/IEC 13818-1 Reserved Descriptor: 0x33
01 00 00 00 00 00 32 91 85 20 00 00 00 00 00 00 ......2.. ......
00 01 0a 00 01 01 03 00 01 20 01 01 03 00 01 20 ......... .....
c0 01 00 7c 32 b7 ef ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ...|2...........
ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ................
ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ................
ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ................
ff 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................
00 00 00 1a 00 1a 00 3b 00 08 02 68 ca 22 00 48 .......;...h.".H
93 22 00 00 00 00 00 02 00 80 84 00 00 00 00 04 ."..............

Program Number: 7 KGO-DT

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 2176 (0x0880)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 15.000 Mbps Resolution 704 x 480i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 4:3 Chroma Format 4:2:0

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 2177 (0x0881)
AC3: Bitrate 192 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined

Program Number: 8 KGO DT

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 2304 (0x0900)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 15.000 Mbps Resolution 720 x 480i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 4:3 Chroma Format 4:2:0

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 2305 (0x0901)
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language:
Audio type: undefined

Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table
Channel 1
Service Name: KGO-DT
TSID: 10361 (0x2879)
Channel Number: 7.1
Carrier Frequency: 624000000
Modulation Mode: SCTE_mode_2
Source ID: 37

Channel 2
Service Name: KQED-HD
TSID: 10361 (0x2879)
Channel Number: 9.1
Carrier Frequency: 624000000
Modulation Mode: SCTE_mode_2
Source ID: 39

Channel 3
Service Name: ENCORE
TSID: 10361 (0x2879)
Channel Number: 9.2
Carrier Frequency: 624000000
Modulation Mode: SCTE_mode_2
Source ID: 42

Channel 7
Service Name: KGO-DT
TSID: 10361 (0x2879)
Channel Number: 7.2
Carrier Frequency: 624000000
Modulation Mode: SCTE_mode_2
Source ID: 45

Channel 8
Service Name: KGO DT
TSID: 10361 (0x2879)
Channel Number: 7.3
Carrier Frequency: 624000000
Modulation Mode: SCTE_mode_2
Source ID: 73

Event Information Table
MPEG-2 Statistics
TableSections ProcessedCRC Errors
PAT870
CAT00
PMT191
ETT00
PSIP2270
EIT00

Continuity errors: 0
TEI errors: 0
Calculated multiplex rate: 38847264 bps

General Information
Source: Transport Stream File
Tuner: n/a
Signal: n/a
Network Type: ATSC
Run Time: 000:00:28

PID Usage Chart
0x0000 (0.02% ~ 0.01 Mbps)

0x0000 MPEG-2 Program Assocation Table
0x0030 (0.04% ~ 0.02 Mbps)

0x0030 MPEG-2 PMT for program 5
0x0031 (0.03% ~ 0.01 Mbps)

0x0031 MPEG-2 PMT for program 6
0x0032 (0.04% ~ 0.01 Mbps)

0x0032 MPEG-2 PMT for program 7
0x0033 (0.04% ~ 0.02 Mbps)

0x0033 MPEG-2 PMT for program 1
0x0034 (0.04% ~ 0.02 Mbps)

0x0034 MPEG-2 PMT for program 8
0x0035 (0.04% ~ 0.02 Mbps)

0x0035 MPEG-2 PMT for program 2
0x0036 (0.04% ~ 0.02 Mbps)

0x0036 MPEG-2 PMT for program 3
0x0037 (0.04% ~ 0.01 Mbps)

0x0037 MPEG-2 PMT for program 4
0x0880 (8.64% - 3.36 Mbps)

0x0880 MPEG-2 Video for program 7
0x0881 (0.61% ~ 0.24 Mbps)

0x0881 AC-3 Audio for program 7
0x08c0 (32.20% - 12.51 Mbps)

0x08c0 MPEG-2 Video for program 1
0x08c1 (1.09% ~ 0.42 Mbps)

0x08c1 AC-3 Audio for program 1
0x0900 (4.13% - 1.61 Mbps)

0x0900 MPEG-2 Video for program 8
0x0901 (0.60% ~ 0.23 Mbps)

0x0901 AC-3 Audio for program 8
0x0940 (35.88% - 13.93 Mbps)

0x0940 MPEG-2 Video for program 2
0x0941 (1.09% ~ 0.42 Mbps)

0x0941 AC-3 Audio for program 2
0x0942 (0.61% ~ 0.24 Mbps)

0x0942 AC-3 Audio for program 2
0x0943 (0.60% ~ 0.23 Mbps)

0x0943 AC-3 Audio for program 2
0x0980 (7.31% - 2.85 Mbps)

0x0980 MPEG-2 Video for program 3
0x0981 (0.60% ~ 0.23 Mbps)

0x0981 AC-3 Audio for program 3
0x0982 (0.60% ~ 0.23 Mbps)

0x0982 AC-3 Audio for program 3
0x0983 (0.60% ~ 0.23 Mbps)

0x0983 AC-3 Audio for program 3
0x1800 (0.04% ~ 0.01 Mbps)

0x1800 ATSC EIT-0
0x1801 (0.01% ~ 0.00 Mbps)

0x1801 ATSC EIT-1
0x1802 (0.00% ~ 0.00 Mbps)

0x1802 ATSC EIT-2
0x1803 (0.00% ~ 0.00 Mbps)

0x1803 ATSC EIT-3
0x1ffb (0.04% ~ 0.01 Mbps)

0x1ffb ATSC Base PID (TVCT, MGT, RT, STT)
0x1fff (5.01% ~ 1.95 Mbps)

0x1fff MPEG-2 NULL Packet

GameGod

11-23-06, 11:09 PM

It sure looks like the "ATSC Redistribution Control Descriptor" is what is changing CCI to 0x02 on the STB. I just captured RF 79 again, which has KPIX and KTVU. Now, CCI is 0x02 on KTVU and TSRL's report indicates that the broadcast flag is active on KTVU as well.

Here are relevant parts from the report:

SI Parsing by TSReader 2.7.45bProgram Association Table
PAT Version Number: 18
Transport Stream ID: 10365 (0x287d)

PMT PID 49 (0x0031) - Program 1 KPIX DT
PMT PID 48 (0x0030) - Program 2 KTVUHD

Program Map Table(s)
Program Number: 1 KPIX DT
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x47413934 (GA94)
Descriptor: Smoothing Buffer Descriptor
SB Leak Rate: 45000 SB Size: 512
Descriptor: ATSC Component Name Descriptor
Component Name: KPIX-DT
Descriptor: ATSC Redistribution Control Descriptor
ff .

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 2112 (0x0840)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 38.810 Mbps Resolution 1920 x 1080i
MPEG Video: Framerate 29.97 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0
Descriptor: Video Stream Descriptor
Multiple frame rate flag: False
Frame rate: 29.97¼
MPEG-1 only flag: False
Constrained paramter flag: True
Still picture flag: False
Descriptor: Data Stream Alignment Descriptor
Alignment type: video access unit

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 2113 (0x0841)
AC3: Bitrate 384 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x41432d33 (AC-3)
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined
Descriptor: Data Stream Alignment Descriptor
Alignment type: slice, or video access unit

Program Number: 2 KTVUHD
Descriptor: Multiplex Buffer Utilization Descriptor
Bound Valid Flag: 1
LTW Offset Lower: 180 Upper: 180
Descriptor: Maximum Bitrate Descriptor
Maximum bitrate: 2080900 bytes per second
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x47413934 (GA94)
Descriptor: Smoothing Buffer Descriptor
SB Leak Rate: 41618 SB Size: 2048
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x43554549 (CUEI)
Descriptor: ATSC Redistribution Control Descriptor

Stream Type: 0x02 MPEG-2 Video PID 2048 (0x0800)
MPEG Video: Bitrate 38.810 Mbps Resolution 1280 x 720p
MPEG Video: Framerate 59.94 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0
Descriptor: Video Stream Descriptor
Multiple frame rate flag: False
Frame rate: 29.97¼
MPEG-1 only flag: False
Constrained paramter flag: True
Still picture flag: False
Descriptor: Stream Indentifier Descriptor
07 .
Descriptor: Maximum Bitrate Descriptor
Maximum bitrate: 1921300 bytes per second
Descriptor: Data Stream Alignment Descriptor
Alignment type: video access unit
Descriptor: ATSC Caption Service Descriptor
ATSC Caption Service Descriptor:
Language: eng Format: Captions service 1

Stream Type: 0x81 AC-3 Audio PID 2049 (0x0801)
AC3: Bitrate 448 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 3/2 5 L, C, R, SL, SR
Descriptor: Registration Descriptor
Format identifier: 0x41432d33 (AC-3)
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor
Language: eng
Audio type: undefined
Descriptor: Stream Indentifier Descriptor
91 .
Descriptor: Maximum Bitrate Descriptor
Maximum bitrate: 62950 bytes per second

Terrestrial Virtual Channel Table
Channel 1
Service Name: KPIX DT
TSID: 10365 (0x287d)
Channel Number: 5.1
Carrier Frequency: 624000000
Modulation Mode: SCTE_mode_2
Source ID: 36

Channel 2
Service Name: KTVUHD
TSID: 10365 (0x287d)
Channel Number: 2.1
Carrier Frequency: 624000000
Modulation Mode: SCTE_mode_2
Source ID: 38

dr1394

11-24-06, 04:59 AM

zalusky

11-24-06, 11:43 AM

Anybody have the latest schedule on when KGO is supposed to upgrade their news to go HD

walk

11-24-06, 03:54 PM

With the new firmware we get some new items in the service menu, like the more descriptive "ports" page, detailing HDMI settings, more verbose 1394 info (like "copy control").

I ran thru all the HD channels last night. Not one appeared to have any 1394 restrictions - they all said "5c = no" and "copy control = copy free". So it looks like the restrictions are coming from the CCI flag whatever that is. All the channels that were not recordable had CCI = 0x02 (Fox at the time showing Spiderman 2, ABC showing Grey's Anatomy(or is that CBS)? and of course INHD, Discovery and ESPN(1).

Though, the duplicate feed of INHD showing on 725 (all day yesterday, before and after the football game) was recordable, as is ESPN2 (but not ESPN1.. huh?)

Also: Anyone else notice the game on NFL-HD had massive sound-sync issues, even the commercials.. It looked pretty good though, not too bad compression, just some grain here and there.

garypen

11-24-06, 07:54 PM

I don't know when they actually sent down the new FW to SJ. I only noticed it a few days ago. But, I'm wondering if anything has changed in additon to the the following items that I've noticed:
-Favorites seems to have been expanded. I haven't had time to sit down and figure it out. But, it does seem like an imporvement.
-VOD has added a single "choice" at the beginning called "Tier 3", which must be chosen before proceding to the tradional VOD screen. Also, there appear to be more choices, making it a bit cluttered and confusing-looking. Definetely a step backwards.
-DVR button no longer takes you directly to the recordings screen. Instead, it takes you to the main DVR function screen, where you must choose "My Recordings" to get to the screen that used to only take one key press. Also a step backwards.
-Menu screen seems to have less choices, but still too many. Still missing basic HW setup functions in the menu. We should not have to power off to make changes to CC or resolution. That is just ridiculous.

Did I miss anything? Are there other changes with this newest FW?

walk

11-24-06, 10:49 PM

Favorites now supports multiple favorite lists.

If you bring up the Guide and hit Favorites it now shows ONLY the channels on the current Favorites list (instead of scrolling to the next Favorite channel). Seems better, but different. It's taking some getting used to...

The VOD thing is strange, that shouldn't be happening. Try power cycling your box.

DVR is 1 more press to get to your recorded shows - yes. On the other hand, it's a lot faster to get to Scheduled recordings and/or Create a recording, so.... 6 of one vs half a dozen of the other...

garypen

11-25-06, 01:05 AM

Favorites is now a usable feature. What was the point of just scanning through 50 or so channels, like the uselass old Favorites function did before? Now, it's a true Favorites function, being able to create custom guides without all of the unsubbed or unwatched channels cluttering things up.

Being able to go directly to recorded shows is much more convenient than going to the main DVR screen first, since "My Recordings" is where I go 90+% of the time, when going to "DVR", as I would imagine most people do.

I thought I did power cycle since the update came down, when it was acting funny. But, I'll try it again. Thanks for the tip!

walk

11-25-06, 03:48 AM

Oh the new favorites is better, I said that. It's just when you are used to something - I had TCI digital cable here in 1999 and the AT&T/Comcast TV-Guide system since 2002? - it just takes a while to adapt when you have been used to the old system for 4-5 years.

sfhub

11-25-06, 10:57 AM

I ran thru all the HD channels last night. Not one appeared to have any 1394 restrictions - they all said "5c = no" and "copy control = copy free".
I was under the impression the calls from UEI coming down the road are in part to address the "copy control = copy free" issue :(

garypen

11-25-06, 12:16 PM

I was just amazed to find out anybody actually used it in its original form. ;-)

stanj

11-25-06, 10:44 PM

If set output to 1080i, when there is a 4:3 program on a channel that is transmitted in 720p (FOX-HD, ABC-HD etc), I get some picture noise at the top of the picture (as if the whole frame was slided down a bit). This does not go away even if I adjust screen position in cable box menu. But if the output is set to 720p I don't see this on either 720p channels or 1080i channels. Has anyone seen this? This is the main reason I have set this to 720p.

I had something like that on one of my LCD sets, only I was getting it all the time not just for 4:3 programs. I talked to tech support of the TV manufacturer and they told me that the set downconverts the 1080i stream to 720p and it was this process that caused the noise.

Just a thought, but have you tried changing the 4:3 override settings?

stanj

11-25-06, 10:52 PM

Yes, it looks that way. I wonder why all the descriptors are stripped from the KGO-DT stream?

You could try to get KPIX-DT to remove their RC descriptor (although CBS was a big proponent of the Broadcast Flag). KTVU-DT would be much more difficult, since the RC descriptor is really from the FOX network feed (which KTVU has no control over).

Of course, the KGO-DT example shows that the cable head-end can also fix the problem (by stripping the descriptor).

It was fun doing the detective work. Trying to convince anyone to delete the RC descriptor probably won't be any fun at all.

Ron

Thanks to all of you guys for your work on this. I basically have had the same experience as GameGod as far as FW recroding from the box--KPIX never records, KTVU records local programs only, and so far no problems recording from KGO or KNTV.

Wish there was a way to get this fixed.

GameGod, if you have names, numbers, email addresses of people you've contacted at KTVU and KPIX, I'd be happy to contact them also. Not sure if it will do any good, but maybe if enough of us complain they might listen.

rjana

11-25-06, 11:23 PM

Since this is illegal i.e cable-box enabling any kind of encryption on unencrypted OTA signal is not allowed per FCC mandate, may be we should file complaint with FCC?

Any thoughts?

-Jana

sfhub

11-26-06, 02:29 AM

Since this is illegal i.e cable-box enabling any kind of encryption on unencrypted OTA signal is not allowed per FCC mandate, may be we should file complaint with FCC?
I think the FCC only cares about broadcasts (which aren't encrypted in this case) and not about recording, unless they are convinced to add stuff like Broadcast Flag by lobbyists which actually restrict recording rather than enabling it.

GameGod

11-26-06, 10:37 AM

I think the FCC only cares about broadcasts (which aren't encrypted in this case) and not about recording, unless they are convinced to add stuff like Broadcast Flag by lobbyists which actually restrict recording rather than enabling it.
That makes me wonder if the RC Descriptor is being inserted into the OTA broadcast as well. I don't think Comcast is inserting the token which means that the only reason its working for OTA at the moment is because the software that records off of OTA (like Sage etc.) don't care about the token. If so, wouldn't Jana's point be valid?

nikeykid

11-26-06, 01:03 PM

someone tell ktvu to flip on the switch!! niners game is in SD!

Derek87

11-26-06, 01:05 PM

someone tell ktvu to flip on the switch!! niners game is in SD!
ugh ugh ugh. who do we call? i have a friend here to see the game and HD and it's in SD as nikeykid notes!

[and of course they proudly said something about the HD presentation right at the start of the broadcast...] (guide info also shows the HD symbol too!)

brimorga

11-26-06, 01:11 PM

ugh ugh ugh. who do we call? i have a friend here to see the game and HD and it's in SD and nikeykid notes!

[and of course they proudly said something about the HD presentation right at the start of the broadcast...]

Yes, this blows. How can we get this fixed?

pappy97

11-26-06, 01:13 PM

someone tell ktvu to flip on the switch!! niners game is in SD!

This is ridiculous! I can't believe how inept KTVU is.

Flip the switch KTVU!!!!

brimorga

11-26-06, 01:21 PM

This is ridiculous! I can't believe how inept KTVU is.

Flip the switch KTVU!!!!

Definately a local problem, from someone in Reno:

"It's in HD in the Reno area, so it must be a Bay Area problem. How about having the Bachelor, Jesse Palmer doing the color? Talk about bottom of the barrel."

pappy97

11-26-06, 01:27 PM

The switch has been flipped. Yay

nikeykid

11-26-06, 01:28 PM

finally. the pregame show wasn't in HD either.

Derek87

11-26-06, 01:29 PM

thank you to whoever got this finally working!

DemonLos

11-26-06, 01:33 PM

called comcast. They said it was on Foxs end and couldn't do anything about it. Minutes later it switches to proper HD feed. Go figure.

stanj

11-26-06, 05:03 PM

That makes me wonder if the RC Descriptor is being inserted into the OTA broadcast as well. I don't think Comcast is inserting the token which means that the only reason its working for OTA at the moment is because the software that records off of OTA (like Sage etc.) don't care about the token. If so, wouldn't Jana's point be valid?

Found a similar discussion going on over at the TiVo (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=326444&page=1&pp=30) community.

According to one of the posters over there, CBS sent this email to it's affiliates:

This is from an e-mail that CBS sent to Affiliates:

---
Broadcast Flag

In an effort to avoid the problems the music industry has had with proliferation of illegal copies of their content on the Internet, we have been taking a proactive role to mark our High Definition content with a Flag. The purpose of the “Broadcast Flag” is to send a signal to the consumer’s equipment that indicates “this content shall not be redistributed on the Internet”. The appearance of the Viidoo web site that allows anyone with a video capture / tuner card in their PC to post a TV program on the internet, underscores the importance of Broadcast Flag. Many of our content partners and providers are requiring that we agree in our program contracts to encode the Broadcast Flag on the studio master tape and pass the signal all the way through the broadcast chain ( i.e., network Broadcast Center, satellite, affiliate and to the home).

btwyx

11-26-06, 07:00 PM

I don't watch much on CBS, but I've occasionally looked over there to see if I can see any evidence of the broadcast flag, and I can't see anything my TiVo (Serires 3) is telling me which would indicate that its set. I think there's something in the diagnostics which tells you what the CCI byte is and I've heard people report the TiVo will put up red flags and delete the recording after 90min.

I'm in mountain view and I get KPIX on cable 705 and OTA 5-1 (and KTVU 702/2-1). Could anyone suggest a program I should try to record where they expect to have broadcast flag problems?

In other words, I'm not seeing any problems, what should I be seeing?

TPeterson

11-26-06, 07:23 PM

It seems that the recording restrictions are appearing only for those people who are using firewire out of the Comcast Moto STB, is that not correct?

btwyx

11-26-06, 07:39 PM

I thought I'd read the CCI was being set to 2, I think I should be able to see that. It doesn't affect the TiVo though, there's no where I can copy the content (CCI is copy never right?)

People with firewire seem to be having problems, but I was thinking I should be able to see some indicator that there's a problem.

keenan

11-26-06, 08:18 PM

On the TiVo box in the diagnostic menu there's a lot of info there, but nothing that looks like a flag setting.

garypen

11-26-06, 08:31 PM

The VOD thing is strange, that shouldn't be happening. Try power cycling your box.I did a hard reboot, and VOD still goes to a screen with a single button labelled "Tier 3" first.

11-26-06, 08:42 PM

On the TiVo box in the diagnostic menu there's a lot of info there, but nothing that looks like a flag setting.

It's on the CableCard conditional access menu. I have not experienced any recording poblem with my S3. Limited basic in Mountain View.

btwyx

11-26-06, 08:53 PM

It's on the CableCard conditional access menu.The CCI byte is there. Is this any different from "the Broadcast flag"? Sometimes the discussion makes it sound like these are different things, sometimes the same. I haven't seen anything about flags.

keenan

11-26-06, 09:11 PM

I see that, for 702, 703, 705 and 707, they all read "CCI:0x00"

There's also a listing for "Copy Protection Key:Disabled" on all the above channels.

On one of the screens for one of the cards there's an entry for "Encryption:DES" but it's not on both cards. I'm not sure which channels are for which cards so I can't tell if it relates to a particular channel or not.

I'm not having any problems recording though.

walk

11-26-06, 09:15 PM

btwyx

11-26-06, 09:35 PM

eduardoj

11-26-06, 10:15 PM

sfhub

11-26-06, 10:35 PM

That makes me wonder if the RC Descriptor is being inserted into the OTA broadcast as well. I don't think Comcast is inserting the token which means that the only reason its working for OTA at the moment is because the software that records off of OTA (like Sage etc.) don't care about the token. If so, wouldn't Jana's point be valid?
I should have worded my post differently. I don't think the FCC cares about broadcast flag problems. When they did care they were pushing *for* it (support of it) to be mandatory. Broadcast Flag isn't against any rules. What the courts determined was the FCC didn't have the authority to force everyone to use Broadcast Flag, so the lobbying went to Congress to have them pass legislation.

So if you complain to the FCC about broadcast flag problems they'll either say we support it but don't have the authority to enforce it or we've been told we have no authority in this area so it isn't our problem.

If you instead complained that OTA is being *encrypted* and people don't have access to it, then they would care, but that isn't what is happening here.

sfhub

11-26-06, 10:39 PM

The CCI byte is there. Is this any different from "the Broadcast flag"? Sometimes the discussion makes it sound like these are different things, sometimes the same. I haven't seen anything about flags.
dr1394 can say for sure.

I could be wrong here but I'm under the impression Broadcast Flag is an ATSC thing and CCI is a DTCP thing. They accomplish the same purpose but are embedded in different areas. It is possible some equipment is programmed to set CCI based on Broadcast Flag, making them essentially the same. Again I could be wrong, and maybe they are exactly the same thing, but I think they are mechanisms to accomplish the same purpose but are implemented in different areas.

sushinut

11-26-06, 10:55 PM

I'm going to order the Comcast DVR tomorrow since I can't get closed captioning on my panny 9uk from my series2 tivo (for the wife). Are there any issues with the 6412 displaying CC for SD? From another avs thread it seems CC is fine for HD but only shows CC for SD when at 480p.

tskrainar

11-26-06, 11:03 PM

So when the CSR told me I should be able to get ESPN2 in HD in Sunnyvale (I'm fairly sure it's part of the 550 slum), and that I needed to exchange my STB to do so since I can't get it at present, she was wrong? I mean, I know I'm needlessly paying for On Demand and all, but give me my sports..

Also, I'm not sure if I'm crazy or if the latest update to 74.53-3321/16.20 completely broke the HDTV display listings - for me, it only shows the current shows STARTING in HD for that block of time, and it doesn't even get all of them (i.e. The Amazing Race is a no show in the HDTV listings but it's there in the normal guide). Other than that, few problems so far, though every once in awhile the audio starts popping quickly every once in awhile.

Oi.. it makes me want to move, or just get rid of Comcast.

#1, never ever ever believe anything a CSR tells you ;)
#2, all of the sudden the bandwidth available to my cable modem (here in N. Sunnyvale) just went through the roof. I benched it at http://www.speakeasy.net/speedtest using the SF server, and the average download rate was 9445kbps, peaking at over 11000! Previously, this had measured time after time at around 1500-3000, so this is definitely a boost -- perhaps (oh, please God) this is a leading indicator that a headend upgrade has occurred (but the new channels haven't been rolled out yet -- I reset my CableCARD and rescanned, same channels).

raghu1111

11-26-06, 11:28 PM

I had something like that on one of my LCD sets, only I was getting it all the time not just for 4:3 programs. I talked to tech support of the TV manufacturer and they told me that the set downconverts the 1080i stream to 720p and it was this process that caused the noise.
Just a thought, but have you tried changing the 4:3 override settings?

In my case I don't think it the TV. When I watch the same channel on TV (clear QAM), 1080i and 720p both look fine. This is certainly some that DTC 6200 does for 720p stream when it converts it to 1080i.

Raghu.

fender4645

11-27-06, 12:04 AM

#1, never ever ever believe anything a CSR tells you ;)
#2, all of the sudden the bandwidth available to my cable modem (here in N. Sunnyvale) just went through the roof. I benched it at http://www.speakeasy.net/speedtest using the SF server, and the average download rate was 9445kbps, peaking at over 11000! Previously, this had measured time after time at around 1500-3000, so this is definitely a boost -- perhaps (oh, please God) this is a leading indicator that a headend upgrade has occurred (but the new channels haven't been rolled out yet -- I reset my CableCARD and rescanned, same channels).

You would most likely know if your area was being upgraded. The difference you're seeing in your cable modem is really not that much in relation to your entire spectrum...it's not even enough for 1 HD channel. Maybe Comcast had some bandwidth in reserve and thought customers would be happier with a 3x download increase as opposed to 1 new HD channel...

tskrainar

11-27-06, 12:35 AM

You would most likely know if your area was being upgraded.

So... how would I know?

The difference you're seeing in your cable modem is really not that much in relation to your entire spectrum...it's not even enough for 1 HD channel. Maybe Comcast had some bandwidth in reserve and thought customers would be happier with a 3x download increase as opposed to 1 new HD channel...

My understanding is that my 550 system was completely and utterly maxed. Furthermore, the download speed I'm seeing lines right up with what someone I know in Santa Clara gets.

rjana

11-27-06, 02:11 AM

I should have worded my post differently. I don't think the FCC cares about broadcast flag problems. When they did care they were pushing *for* it (support of it) to be mandatory. Broadcast Flag isn't against any rules. What the courts determined was the FCC didn't have the authority to force everyone to use Broadcast Flag, so the lobbying went to Congress to have them pass legislation.

So if you complain to the FCC about broadcast flag problems they'll either say we support it but don't have the authority to enforce it or we've been told we have no authority in this area so it isn't our problem.

If you instead complained that OTA is being *encrypted* and people don't have access to it, then they would care, but that isn't what is happening here.

I was not talking about "broadcast flag" a.k.a RC(Redistribution Descriptor). I was talking about CCI flag which is honored by any set-top box which does DTCP. But FCC mandates that any "unecrypted broadcast televesion" should not be encoded by any "multichannel video programming provider" so as to limit recording/copying of the content.

What's happening currently is that some channels like KPIX has set CCI to 0x2(Copy Once) and hence cable set-top boxes with firewire output starts encrupting them according to DTCP rules. What I am saying is that since Comcast is retransmitting some content already available unencrypted OTA, they have no right to encode them. This from what I understood from electronid code of federal regulations.

You can read more from this URL:
hxxp://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=5feebe03dc75434cbb09eebb8662a235;rgn=div6;vie w=text;node=47%3A4.0.1.1.4.23;idno=47;cc=ecfr

web

11-27-06, 02:23 AM

The problem only happens when trying to record via Moto box's 1394 with a non-approved device (i.e. PC with DVHS emulator).

Tivo is an approved device (not to mention, isn't using 1394) so I don't think the same thing applies.
I think that is the case based on some experiments I did a couple of months ago with my Motorola 6412. To confirm, I repeated those experiments tonight (a tad more methodical) and here are my results.

Comcast (Mountain View) using a Motorola DTC3416, firewire connection to a PC (XP Pro), CAPDVHS to record.

"Realtime" Broadcasts:

KTVU (702) 11pm News, CCI=0x00, record and playback ok
KNTV (703) Dateline NBC, CCI=0x00, record and playback ok
KPIX (705) Sunday night movie, CCI=0x02, appears to record, no playback
KGO (707) Boston Legal, CCI=0x00, record and playback ok
TNT-HD (726) Titanic, CCI=0x00, record and playback ok
UHD (727) Firefly, CCI=0x00, record and playback ok

DVR Recordings:

KTVU (702) Standoff, appears to record, no playback
KTVU (702) House, appears to record, no playback
KNTV (703) Heroes, record and playback ok
KPIX (705) The Unit, appears to record, no playback
KGO (707) Daybreak, record and playback ok

PowerDVD 6 works great with playback of .ts files and displays the video and audio bit rates, as well as the type of audio (5.1, 2.0). In the case of "appears to record, no playback", the recording files were created with non-zero size, but PowerDVD generated an error when attempting to playback. Also, when recording CAPDVHS did not display any information in the "Data Info" tab other that the timer 'countdown'.

I believe that KTVU (702) will display 'CCI=0x02' and appear to record with no playback, identical to KPIX (705), when a network broadcast such as "House" is on, which would explain the results of the "House" and "Standoff" experiments above. Will try to check that tomorrow when Prison Break is broadcast, depending on my schedule.

Hope this info helps.

web

fender4645

11-27-06, 02:45 AM

So... how would I know?
I believe upgrading from a 550MHz are requires some ground work so you would see a bunch of Comcast trucks in area (IIRC, the Antioch/Pittsburgh area received flyers in the mail about their upgrades).

My understanding is that my 550 system was completely and utterly maxed. Furthermore, the download speed I'm seeing lines right up with what someone I know in Santa Clara gets.
I doubt it's "completely and utterly maxed". Because bandwidth allocation will fluctuate depending on usage, they have to have some minimum overheard to handle potential spikes. Remember, the Internet pipe on a per-household basis is only a fraction of the total bandwidth.

keenan

11-27-06, 04:02 AM

I know the situations are different, but I was thinking I should be able to see the tag which is causing people problems. I don't, so either I'm not looking in the right place, or its not turned on in Mountain View.

I don't want to find out I do have a problem in the unlikely event I ever want to watch a CBS program. I've had no problem with "House" which is the other program which has been mentioned.
That's all I was doing too, looking at what the setting is. Odd that some have different settings, I wonder if the setting is different per type of output. For example, if the eSATA port was active on the S3 would it show some of these programs/channels having a NoCopy setting while showing a "copy okay" setting for use internally.

I've got a HDHomeRun unit on the way and it will be interesting to see if those settings are listed and if they're different from the S3.

dr1394

11-27-06, 06:09 AM

I was not talking about "broadcast flag" a.k.a RC(Redistribution Descriptor). I was talking about CCI flag which is honored by any set-top box which does DTCP. But FCC mandates that any "unecrypted broadcast televesion" should not be encoded by any "multichannel video programming provider" so as to limit recording/copying of the content.

What's happening currently is that some channels like KPIX has set CCI to 0x2(Copy Once) and hence cable set-top boxes with firewire output starts encrupting them according to DTCP rules. What I am saying is that since Comcast is retransmitting some content already available unencrypted OTA, they have no right to encode them. This from what I understood from electronid code of federal regulations.

That's not correct. KPIX is not sending CCI information. The cable STB is fabricating it's own CCI based on the presence of the RC descriptor.

Ron

dr1394

11-27-06, 06:27 AM

In the case of "appears to record, no playback", the recording files were created with non-zero size, but PowerDVD generated an error when attempting to playback. Also, when recording CAPDVHS did not display any information in the "Data Info" tab other that the timer 'countdown'.

web
You've recorded an encrypted stream. It's a big misconception that 5C enabled boxes won't send a bitstream to a non-5C box like a PC. Since it's encrypted, there's no reason not to send it. In other words, there's no added protection by not sending the bitstream since it would be just as easy for a PC to "snoop" on a stream being sent from the cable box to a 5C enabled box like D-VHS.

Ron

dr1394

11-27-06, 06:41 AM

The CCI byte is there. Is this any different from "the Broadcast flag"? Sometimes the discussion makes it sound like these are different things, sometimes the same. I haven't seen anything about flags.
The Conditional Access CCI is different than the RC descriptor. The CA CCI gets relayed to the DTCP CCI in the 1394 output stream. The CA CCI may also get relayed to the analog video output in the form of CGMS-A.

If you look at a QAM Transport Stream with encrypted channels, you'll see a CA descriptor in the PMT of encrypted programs. The CA descriptor contains a PID that points to a private stream. The private stream most likely contains the CCI.

How one copy control system affects other copy control systems is entirely dependent on the software/firmware in the box. The addition of the ATSC RC descriptor being relayed to the 1394 DTCP descriptor appears be Motorola STB specific.

Ron

sfhub

11-27-06, 10:24 AM

But FCC mandates that any "unecrypted broadcast televesion" should not be encoded by any "multichannel video programming provider" so as to limit recording/copying of the content.

What's happening currently is that some channels like KPIX has set CCI to 0x2(Copy Once) and hence cable set-top boxes with firewire output starts encrupting them according to DTCP rules. What I am saying is that since Comcast is retransmitting some content already available unencrypted OTA, they have no right to encode them. This from what I understood from electronid code of federal regulations.

You can read more from this URL:
hxxp://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr;sid=5feebe03dc75434cbb09eebb8662a235;rgn=div6;vie w=text;node=47%3A4.0.1.1.4.23;idno=47;cc=ecfr
As dr1394 pointed out KPIX is not setting CCI in this example.

The URL you referenced is massive. Would you mind pointing out the specific section where FCC mandates unencrypted broadcast cannot be encrypted to limit recording/copying of the content.

That is completely at odds with the FCCs support of the Broadcast Flag which they deemed necessary to protect content rights. The courts didn't strike down the Broadcast Flag. They just said FCC didn't have the authority to mandate it. The reason I mention Broadcast Flag here is not because I don't understand you are talking about CCI. It is because conceptually the purpose of Broadcast Flag and CCI is the same, to protect content producers' distribution. I don't see why the courts saying FCC has no authority in this area would change their position on whether BF or CCI is necessary (which they appear to feel is necessary) Not having the authority to mandate something doesn't mean the STB makers and broadcasters can't go ahead and implement it. It just means if someone wants to ignore BF like PC recording devices, they are perfectly ok doing that. CCI is a different story because if someone wants to put a 1394 port on these STBs they need to be a DTCP approved design.

There are provisions (at least in the analog world, I don't know if they translated to digital yet) where the MSOs aren't allowed to encrypt broadcast channels for redistribution and as I understood it this was intended to protect the broadcasters and the public by preventing the MSOs from charging in a premium tier for content that was available to the public for free.

Assuming those rules translated into digital world, that isn't what is happening here because you can clearly view the channels without CableCARD. Encryption during distribution to your STBs I think is different than encryption once it reaches your STB and you want to pull it off the 1394 port, especially since this content distribution protection is being requested by the broadcaster themselves.

Brian Conrad

11-27-06, 02:42 PM

I was at my sister's place in Castro Valley which is one of the old system being that it was an early test system for fiber. The last time I had checked there was no OnDemand. This time on their SD box I got OnDemand but no show if you selected one. The fun part was showing them the upper left hand corner of an HD channel. :)

Zappcatt

11-27-06, 04:03 PM

QAM accessible channels in Santa Clara.

What channels are you able to get on your QAM equiped PC or TV in Santa Clara(Homestead and San Tomas area)?

I get:

KTVU HD has PSID so shows 2-1 KTVUHD
KPIX HD has PSID so shows 5-1 KPIX DT
KRON HD on 111.8
KNTV HD on 116-1
KGO HD on 117-1
KQED HD on 117-2

I believe those are the only ones we are supossed to get, but I thought some/many people were getting some of the other HD channels in the clear.

Thanks for any info.

MANNAXMAN

11-27-06, 04:14 PM

Santa Rosa is the 5th or 6th largest city in the bay area, with over 66,000 Comcast subs and we are only a half-step above the worst system in the bay are (don't recall which city it is). That system and Santa Rosa are among the worst Comcast systems in the country as far as channels, services, etc.

I believe that city/system that you're referring to is Sunnyvale. We have a total of 8 available HD channels - 702, 703, 705, 707, 709, 722, 723, & 730. You have to subscribe to HBO to get all 8 HD channels.

sfhub

11-27-06, 06:02 PM

walk

11-27-06, 06:22 PM

You've recorded an encrypted stream. It's a big misconception that 5C enabled boxes won't send a bitstream to a non-5C box like a PC. Since it's encrypted, there's no reason not to send it. In other words, there's no added protection by not sending the bitstream since it would be just as easy for a PC to "snoop" on a stream being sent from the cable box to a 5C enabled box like D-VHS.

Ron
Yeah, in other words, it generates large files, but they don't play back. In CapDVHS if you don't see the frame size, bitrate, and etc information fill in the boxes when you click Record, it's not recording. Or rather, it's encrypted and won't be playable.

I believe the FCC says you can't prevent Firewire recording *WITH AN APPROVED DEVICE*. But the PC is not yet an approved device (and won't be until Microsoft figures out a way to make money from the deal...)

I know when I posted in that sticky thread in the HD Recorders area about the KPIX problem, about 6 months ago, they shot me down really fast, saying the PC doesn't count or something.... /shrug

tritonx

11-27-06, 07:20 PM

I've had a Sammy HL-S5687W for about 3 months and subscribe to Comcast in Foster City (digital service, no DVR). Since 11/17, the HDMI connection has been showing static, with the picture flickering in about once every two seconds. I tried replacing the STB which appeared to correct the problem for a few minutes until it downloaded something from Comcast, and then the issue re-appeared.

The CSR that stopped by claimed it was a Motorola issue and that a fix is potentially not going to be available until January! Have any of you encountered a similar problem?

Thanks,
Tritonx

sfhub

11-27-06, 07:42 PM

I believe the FCC says you can't prevent Firewire recording *WITH AN APPROVED DEVICE*. But the PC is not yet an approved device (and won't be until Microsoft figures out a way to make money from the deal...)

I know when I posted in that sticky thread in the HD Recorders area about the KPIX problem, about 6 months ago, they shot me down really fast, saying the PC doesn't count or something.... /shrug
Yes, that I can believe quite easily, the added "WITH AN APPROVED DEVICE" makes a world of difference to the interpretation of what FCC has mandated.

"Approved device" basically means implements DTCP and has been certified.

The PC recording does not implement DTCP nor has it been certified thus you are on your own trying to get things changed. Don't depend on the FCC stepping in.

That is completely consistent with FCC's past positions supporting flags to protect content distribution rights.

tennis

11-27-06, 08:29 PM

Hi,

Is there any way to escalate a problem with Comcast other than waiting for hours on the phone? I've had 2 techs out to my house. The second one was supposed to finish the work of the first. The second group didn't know anything about it and didn't even have ID when they arrived!

Anyone have any contact #s at Comcast?

Thanks,
-T :mad:

fender4645

11-27-06, 08:48 PM

keenan

11-27-06, 08:51 PM

I believe that city/system that you're referring to is Sunnyvale. We have a total of 8 available HD channels - 702, 703, 705, 707, 709, 722, 723, & 730. You have to subscribe to HBO to get all 8 HD channels.
Yes, your area has only HBO for a premium. But I thought you got INHD/FSNBA-HD? Maybe a different south bay system?

rjana

11-27-06, 08:52 PM

The URL you referenced is massive. Would you mind pointing out the specific section where FCC mandates unencrypted broadcast cannot be encrypted to limit recording/copying of the content.

Here is the excerpt. To me this tells that it is against the electronic code of federal regulations what the cable provider is doing

"Title 47: Telecommunication
PART 76—MULTICHANNEL VIDEO AND CABLE TELEVISION SERVICE
Subpart W—Encoding Rules

Browse Previous | Browse Next
§ 76.1904 Encoding rules for defined business models.

(a) Commercial audiovisual content delivered as unencrypted broadcast television shall not be encoded so as to prevent or limit copying thereof by covered products or, to constrain the resolution of the image when output from a covered product."

As for the definitions of different terms:

* Commercial audiovisual content shall mean works that consist of a series of related images which are intrinsically intended to be shown by the use of machines, or devices such as projectors, viewers, or electronic equipment, together with accompanying sounds, if any, regardless of the nature of the material objects, such as films or tapes, in which the works are embodied, transmitted by a covered entity and that are:

(1) Not created by the user of a covered product, and

(2) Offered for transmission, either generally or on demand, to subscribers or purchasers or the public at large or otherwise for commercial purposes, not uniquely to an individual or a small, private group.

* Covered product shall mean a device used by consumers to access commercial audiovisual content offered by a covered entity (excluding delivery via cable modem or the Internet); and any device to which commercial audiovisual content so delivered from such covered product may be passed, directly or indirectly.

* Covered entity shall mean any entity that is subject to this subpart.

* Unencrypted broadcast television means the retransmission by a covered entity of any service, program, or schedule or group of programs originally broadcast in the clear without use of a commercially-adopted access control method by a terrestrial television broadcast station regardless of whether such covered entity employs an access control method as a part of its retransmission.

jasanity

11-27-06, 09:31 PM

I am a little confused, some people say they get TNTHD in Cupertino, some don't. I called Comcast and they said Cupertino doesn't get TNTHD. I live on the side next to Saratoga and West San Jose. Does anyone get TNTHD there??

dipen

11-27-06, 10:09 PM

Sorry but this is a noob q... how do I browse the digital channels faster? MY TV has a QAM tuner but I don't know where all of the HD channels are! I found FOX HD and KGO HD and few others. I can't find ESPN HD. I've read postings where ppl were able to see ESPNHD in the clear. I have expanded basic cable. I'm in the east San jose area.

tskrainar

11-27-06, 10:28 PM

Yes, your area has only HBO for a premium. But I thought you got INHD/FSNBA-HD? Maybe a different south bay system?

You're thinking of Saratoga. Sunnyvale does not get FSNBA/INHD (much to my Sharks-lovin dismay).

dr1394

11-27-06, 11:04 PM

Yes, that I can believe quite easily, the added "WITH AN APPROVED DEVICE" makes a world of difference to the interpretation of what FCC has mandated.

"Approved device" basically means implements DTCP and has been certified.

The PC recording does not implement DTCP nor has it been certified thus you are on your own trying to get things changed. Don't depend on the FCC stepping in.

That is completely consistent with FCC's past positions supporting flags to protect content distribution rights.
I think the EFF would love to hear about this resurrection of the Broadcast Flag. Maybe an e-mail to them at action@eff.org would be useful. They are essentially a bunch of lawyers, so they can sort out who's to blame.

Ron

tennis

11-27-06, 11:12 PM

Why don't you tell us the problem...maybe someone here can help.

I need the outside cabling redone. We're getting a poor SNR reading on the incoming line. The last tech figured it out, but couldn't get the cable rerun since it was so late. So, he requested another visit by another tech. They showed up (hours late) without a clue and were definitely not interested in doing any cabling.

sfhub

11-27-06, 11:22 PM

These are the 2 areas you will have problems with:
1) and any device to which commercial audiovisual content so delivered from such covered product may be passed, directly or indirectly.
The firewire port on the STB is only spec'd to transfer all content to DTCP capable recording devices. It may transfer some content to non-DTCP capable recording devices. The argument will be you are not using a properly licensed device for your recordings. If you found that your DTCP-capable recording device wasn't able to record, then you would have a case.

2) in the clear without use of a commercially-adopted access control method
In this case the content does have commecially-adopted access control method, which means these rules are not meant to override the commercially adopted access control method, but to apply in cases when they are not in use.

Here is the excerpt. To me this tells that it is against the electronic code of federal regulations what the cable provider is doing

"Title 47: Telecommunication
PART 76—MULTICHANNEL VIDEO AND CABLE TELEVISION SERVICE
Subpart W—Encoding Rules

Browse Previous | Browse Next
§ 76.1904 Encoding rules for defined business models.

(a) Commercial audiovisual content delivered as unencrypted broadcast television shall not be encoded so as to prevent or limit copying thereof by covered products or, to constrain the resolution of the image when output from a covered product."

As for the definitions of different terms:

* Commercial audiovisual content shall mean works that consist of a series of related images which are intrinsically intended to be shown by the use of machines, or devices such as projectors, viewers, or electronic equipment, together with accompanying sounds, if any, regardless of the nature of the material objects, such as films or tapes, in which the works are embodied, transmitted by a covered entity and that are:

(1) Not created by the user of a covered product, and

(2) Offered for transmission, either generally or on demand, to subscribers or purchasers or the public at large or otherwise for commercial purposes, not uniquely to an individual or a small, private group.

* Covered product shall mean a device used by consumers to access commercial audiovisual content offered by a covered entity (excluding delivery via cable modem or the Internet); and any device to which commercial audiovisual content so delivered from such covered product may be passed, directly or indirectly.

* Covered entity shall mean any entity that is subject to this subpart.

* Unencrypted broadcast television means the retransmission by a covered entity of any service, program, or schedule or group of programs originally broadcast in the clear without use of a commercially-adopted access control method by a terrestrial television broadcast station regardless of whether such covered entity employs an access control method as a part of its retransmission.

sfhub

11-27-06, 11:42 PM

I think the EFF would love to hear about this resurrection of the Broadcast Flag. Maybe an e-mail to them at action@eff.org would be useful. They are essentially a bunch of lawyers, so they can sort out who's to blame.

Ron
I'm not happy with the Broadcast Flag and CCI either and think they should be banned.

However I'm not understanding what contacting EFF would accomplish unless BF/CCI was banned by some legislation. I'm not aware of anything that says BF and/or CCI cannot be used by broadcasters if they choose to do so. I'm only aware that the courts have ruled FCC does not have the authority to force all manufacturers to implement BF and force the implementation of the whole infrastructure.

In this case Motorola implemented support on their own and CBS is sending BF on their own. MyHD and Fusion cards are not being blackballed or sued out of existence for ignoring the broadcast flag. So what would be the issue EFF would bring up?

If I'm wrong and there is some rule or legislation that bans the use of BF and CCI then I'd be overjoyed if someone showed me where because I'm not happy with BF and CCI either.

I would love it if consumers knew enough about BF and CCI to lobby their elected officials to ban its usage, but I haven't seen that happen.

So bottom line, AFAIK the Broadcast Flag *mandate* was struck down. That does not mean the remnants of the Broadcast Flag infrastructure were deemed illegal.

I think it is silly for CBS and others to use the BF (and indirectly CCI) because there are plenty of devices which can ignore BF and thus the purpose of BF is easily circumvented. All they are creating is an inconvenience for their users. However I don't see how what they are doing is banned or not allowed under any current legislation.

This is from EFF website:
http://www.eff.org/IP/broadcastflag/

Responding to pressure from Hollywood, the FCC had originally mandated the flag, but thanks to our court challenge, ALA v. FCC, it was thrown out. But that doesn't mean the danger is behind us. Hollywood has headed to Congress to ask for the flag again.

The FCC's Broadcast Flag Proceedings
The FCC's November 2003 Broadcast Flag ruling left several issues open and solicited additional comments. EFF in response urged the FCC to (1) exclude software-defined tuners (like GNU Radio) from the broadcast flag mandate, (2) keep broadcast television unscrambled when retransmitted on cable basic tier, and (3) avoid unifying the procedures for approving broadcast flag and plug and play content protection technologies.

Tom Koegel

11-27-06, 11:44 PM

Got a message from Comcast over the weekend asking that I call in to give them some information necessary to upgrade their system to Cablecard 2.0. I dutifully (and foolishly, as it turned out) called in, waited on hold 15 minutes, and gave them the information. As soon as they loaded it into the system and I hung up, I noticed that my set had dropped back to basic access. I get channels 2-34, the 96 variant on KQED, and the local HD channels. None of the other HD, none of the digital tier, etc. I called the Cablecard CSR back, and he ran me through a few things, including rebooting the Cablecard. Nothing worked. He then said "gee, I'm really just a data entry clerk" (I kid you not) and said I needed to call the main number. The main CSR guy (after waiting 30 minutes!) had me eject the Cablecard, but to no good effect. I now have a service visit scheduled but not until Wednesday afternoon. Fortunately, this is the second set so it's not a huge deal. But you have to love Comcast's incompetence.

BTW, I tried to grill the "data entry clerk" about the purpose of the upgrade. Ironically, he told me it was to help make sure that their customers didn't have problems receiving higher tiers of service that were authorized. I didn't get that problem until after they input my data!

sfhub

11-27-06, 11:47 PM

Tom Koegel

11-27-06, 11:57 PM

sfhub,

Thanks for the tip--I remembered reading the post, but couldn't find it. Searching for UEI, I could.

This is indeed the UEI call. What a crock of hooey. Here is the representation from Comcast printed in mikef5's post:

· Their technical expertise in cable video troubleshooting and repair support. Should subscribers require additional repair support, UEI will troubleshoot and resolve the problem, or schedule a repair appointment if necessary.

They are completely incapable of doing repairs other than "hitting" the cablecard with some kind of reset, and they left ME To schedule the appointment.

Tom

P.S. The data entry clerk blurted out, when I called him back, that they hadn't had many problems before, but now that they are in working in a new area (I presume geographic area) they are finding more problems with the cards.

fender4645

11-28-06, 12:34 AM

However I'm not understanding what contacting EFF would accomplish unless BF/CCI was banned by some legislation.

The EFF has a whole section devoted to the broadcast flag: http://www.eff.org/IP/broadcastflag/

web

11-28-06, 12:38 AM

...I believe that KTVU (702) will display 'CCI=0x02' and appear to record with no playback, identical to KPIX (705), when a network broadcast such as "House" is on, which would explain the results of the "House" and "Standoff" experiments above. Will try to check that tomorrow when Prison Break is broadcast, depending on my schedule.
Tonight I checked both Prison Break and House on KTVU (702) and CCI was set to '0x02' rather than '0x00' as it was Sunday for the local news. And as expected, CAPDVHS recorded an encrypted file, during those two broadcasts, which of course, would not playback. It would appear the somewhere in the broadcast chain for KTVU, the CCI value is set to either '0x00' or '0x02', dependent upon what is broadcast. I apologize if that information was stated definitively in an earlier post, but it appeared there was still speculation concerning the issue.

web

ayewbf

11-28-06, 02:09 AM

Are these the UEI calls that were mentioned earlier?

You would think they would have tested this stuff out before subjecting their users to more headaches after the recent Motorola upgrade.UEI called me last week to ask me for my cablecard unit addresses. If I hadn't read on tivocommunity that this was coming I would have been very skeptical about the cold-call, but since I was expecting it, things went smoothly. (Coincidently this was a few days after I tried to give that info to the local office; they didn't know what I was talking about and weren't interested). Anyways, my (1.0) cablecards still work fine decrypting digital channels&premium channels after I gave them the info. I wonder if this will fix the 30 day bug.

keenan

11-28-06, 02:37 AM

You're thinking of Saratoga. Sunnyvale does not get FSNBA/INHD (much to my Sharks-lovin dismay).
Thanks, I thought it was somewhere down there. :)

san_mateo_mike

11-28-06, 03:42 AM

dlou99

11-28-06, 04:10 AM

dr1394

11-28-06, 04:57 AM

Whoa, Doc. We're talking DTCP here, right? First stage of DTCP is auth key exchange and AKE requires exchanging DTLA signed certs. Failing signature verification should halt the entire process. Besides, DTCP uses the M6 cipher while DES is what comes out of the cablecard (assuming EMI is not set to passthrough) so the key sizes won't match.
Nope. Bitstream transmission and AKE (Authentication and Key Exchange) are two entirely separate processes.

The unplayable file that "walk" captured is encrypted with the M6 cipher. Only one cipher can be applied per transmission path. If the channel he had been trying to capture was an encrypted QAM channel, the stream is first DES decrypted and sent to the 1394 chip in the clear (but hopefully over an inaccessible path on the circuit board). The 1394 chip then encrypts the in the clear stream with the M6 cipher for transmission over 1394.

BTW, I'm the implementor of 5C/DTCP on the late model JVC D-VHS decks (40K, 5U and 100U).

Ron

sfhub

11-28-06, 10:45 AM

The EFF has a whole section devoted to the broadcast flag: http://www.eff.org/IP/broadcastflag/
Yes, I realize, please see post above yours.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9008849&&#post9008849

fender4645

11-28-06, 12:17 PM

Yes, I realize, please see post above yours.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9008849&&#post9008849

Sorry, didn't read through the whole post. :p

fender4645

11-28-06, 12:20 PM

Hey all,

I'm in the san mateo area, and all of a sudden I've lost channels 2-99. I've got the 3416 so I need the ADS. When I use the bedroom tv, I get the analogue versions of 2-99 just fine. But on the dvr, it's as if 2-99 don't exist, they aren't even in the guide! What gives?

This seems to be a common problem when you attach a 34xx for the first time. I'm guessing though you've had it working before and then all of a sudden they went away. Not sure why it happened but a "quick" call to a CSR rep and a hit to your box should fix the problem. I don't think unplugging will do it but you can try.

web

11-28-06, 12:53 PM

This seems to be a common problem when you attach a 34xx for the first time. I'm guessing though you've had it working before and then all of a sudden they went away. Not sure why it happened but a "quick" call to a CSR rep and a hit to your box should fix the problem. I don't think unplugging will do it but you can try.
Unplugging with probably not do anything. I experienced the same thing when adding a 3416. Selecting a specific channel using the guide would display an different channel and 2-99 were not accessible or displayed on the guide. While at the same time the 6412 in another room continued to work without either of those issues.

It took two CSR calls to resolve the 3416 issues. The first call resulted in a 'reset' by the CSR, which resolved selecting a channel from the guide and having a different channel displayed. Channels 2-99 were still not displayed and the CSR did not have a clue about ADS, so I waited to call again and hopefully get another CSR.

The second call resulted in a 'clued in' CSR who was aware of ADS and 'flipped the switch'. Initially, it did not appear to worked since channels 2-99 were not displayed on the guide and could not be accessed. Both the CSR and I were baffled and thought the 3416 was defective. After hanging up and checking the unit again a few minutes later, channels 2-99 were displayed in the guide and accessible. It appears there is a lag after ADS is enabled before the unit displays and allows access to channels 2-99.

web

san_mateo_mike

11-28-06, 12:54 PM

*sigh*, interesting. I did try unplugging it, no dice. Even though it's risky I'm doing the factory reset and redownload that they talk about on the wikibooks, I just don't want to have to waste an evening calling CSR

ssmobin

11-28-06, 01:22 PM

Yeah I had to call in when I got my 3416. After I plugged it in, channel 2 was displaying ESPN2HD lol

After she hit the box and it reset, everything was fine.

ssmobin

11-28-06, 01:23 PM

it took me about 15-20 minutes total, including the wait time to get a CSR on the phone.
*sigh*, interesting. I did try unplugging it, no dice. Even though it's risky I'm doing the factory reset and redownload that they talk about on the wikibooks, I just don't want to have to waste an evening calling CSR

walk

11-28-06, 01:48 PM

0x02 is "copy once" ?

You should be able to record that (once, anyway) to a real DVHS.

If not then you probably have some issue with the FCC. Otherwise, if you're trying to record to a PC or other non-approved device, I don't think there's anything the EFF can do for us.

I don't know how MyHD or Fusion create their files, but I assume they are encrypted and protected from being re-copied somehow. ?

The MPEG (.ts) files that come out of CapDVHS are completely un-protected, and can be converted to DVD or Divx/etc formats and uploaded to the interwebbertrons. That's exactly what BC is supposed to prevent, and frankly I don't blame Hollywood for trying to stop that.

walk

11-28-06, 01:52 PM

TPeterson

11-28-06, 01:58 PM

I don't know how MyHD or Fusion create their files, but I assume they are encrypted and protected from being re-copied somehow. ?Nope. They're just like the .ts files that you get with CapDVHS (except that they totally ignore the BF status--just as do all the non-Moto boxes, AFAIK).

sushinut

11-28-06, 02:04 PM

My question one more time, a fairly simple one :). Still pondering about getting the Comcast DVR, does it display closed captioning well for both SD and HD? Better through component? Or HDMI?

RBurks

11-28-06, 02:16 PM

It's been a week or so and this is my experience with new firmare on 6412:

1) Box is just as slow as before changing channels
2) Almost every button but channel Up/Down seems to require 2 pushes. Even though the little remote command lights up on the front display, and I wait for a minute or so, nothing happens on first push.
3) Still have the green screen problem if I shut off TV on SD channel (HDMI handshake issue - btw I leave the 6412 on all the time)
4) I have same response as before with On Demand
5) I have same response as before with 30sec skip macros (not slow like others)
6) Still get commands backing up, then executing all at once (frequency about same as before)
7) Unhappy with useless second level menu to get to my DVR recordings
8) Haven't used new Favorites capability yet
9) Seems ADS was enabled in concert with the firmware download, as now most channels show Dolby Digital in info line.
10) At least I am not impacted by HDMI interface problem (Sony SXRD)

All and all really hard to appreciate any improvements, and the need to push the remote button twice to execute a command is getting annoying quickly.

greeno

11-28-06, 02:44 PM

I've not had the command backup issue with the new firmware.

I have still had some issues with "jerky" viewing of HD content. pausing for 10-15 sec, then playing usually clears it. Sometime later I can skip back to real time and it seems ok.

The confirm recording dialog box had been very slow to appear when setting up a future recording, when the firmware first came out. That seems to have gotten much better due to some subsequent improvement?

I wonder if you have a remote issue RBurks that's causing the 2 button presses. i use a OFA universal and have no issues getting remote commands to take.

One thing I do see that's an improvement, but it's not with the box, abc and cbs all seem, during primetime, to have the volume levels on the commercials below that of the program. This is good. It had been the case that the commercials were way louder compared to the program...

Best,
jeff

fender4645

11-28-06, 03:09 PM

New subject: :)

With the new firmware, in the service menu there's a whole section devoted to "connected home". Any idea when/if this feature will be enabled? I assume this is some kind of home-network router type deal that lets you i.e. watch your DVR recordings from any other comcast box in the house?

I assume it will use your home's existing cable coax for transmission? Do these boxes have the upload bandwidth for HDTV?

I think there are other MSO's/areas who use the Moto DVR that do use a "connected home" type feature (doesn't Verizon use Moto boxes for FiOS??). So it wouldn't surprise me if there are firmware changes that don't apply to Comcast. I remember hearing something about Comcast maybe offering this in the future but I haven't heard anything in a while.

gaderson

11-28-06, 07:42 PM

It's been a week or so and this is my experience with new firmare on 6412:

1) Box is just as slow as before changing channels
I don't use the up/down channel since it also switches inputs on my component switch, I usually use pull up the mini-guide.

2) Almost every button but channel Up/Down seems to require 2 pushes. Even though the little remote command lights up on the front display, and I wait for a minute or so, nothing happens on first push.
Yes, the remote seems to have become even more unresponsive, as if that were possible.

3) Still have the green screen problem if I shut off TV on SD channel (HDMI handshake issue - btw I leave the 6412 on all the time) no HDMI so, don't notice.

4) I have same response as before with On Demand
I've noticed that when going through the menus, and even in MyDVR, that the video in the upper-right corner is really jerky--not a great problem but annoying.

5) I have same response as before with 30sec skip macros (not slow like others)
As mentioned above, this is now a real chore, as I seem to jam the buttons down for them to work, or hit a few times, though it doesn't seem to stick as with other button presses.

6) Still get commands backing up, then executing all at once (frequency about same as before)
Yep, you'd figure after months and months of this problem they'd fix it. Need to save up for a TiVo, or wait for the new Panny boxes.

7) Unhappy with useless second level menu to get to my DVR recordings
This is a bit annoying, but, I do find myself going to the 'My Scheduled' more often which is handy. But, yeah, no more sitting down, hit 'MyDVR' hit the show then select play.

8) Haven't used new Favorites capability yet
I did use them pre-update where hitting the 'favs' button would jump through the guides to your favorite channel. Now is nice, but the annoying thing is that while watching, I hit select/enter, then cursor right (open mini guide), and then when I hit 'favs' it sends me up to my first channel (1: On Demand) so then I have to scroll down back to where I was--more one step forward, two back.

9) Seems ADS was enabled in concert with the firmware download, as now most channels show Dolby Digital in info line.
Hmm, don't watch much SD, so haven't noticed.

All and all really hard to appreciate any improvements, and the need to push the remote button twice to execute a command is getting annoying quickly.
Yep, one step...

Andy321

11-28-06, 08:23 PM

The new software does seem to support HDMI (from Mot to Denon 3806 to Pioneer). But I have found a different issue with the Mot box that I haven't heard of here.

(snip)

It appears I'm back to component out to the Denon. Doesn't make a diff in PQ that I can tell, but this is really bad form! What's the point of HDMI if the software is so paranoid about protecting Hollywood's paranoia that the whole thing become useless?

-Dave

So I'm talking to this sales rep about getting a Denon and he's telling me to hold off, of all things. Said that 2 HDMI inputs isn't going to cut it soon. Said I probably would want to get an Apple iTV box so I need another HDMI input. Said that by the time the iTV comes out (Q2 2007), the blu rays will be below $500. Said that the iTV will wake up Comcast and I ought to reassess everything mid-2007 and then go for the best setup for my needs, probably cable, blu ray DVD, and iTV.

I have a headache. Too much esoteric stuff.

fender4645

11-28-06, 08:50 PM

Regarding the remote responsiveness (or lack there of) with the new software/firmware, I've actually noticed a huge difference. It's happened a few time since the update but it's only lasted a few seconds...nothing like the 30-60 seconds I used to see. I hope I didn't just jinx myself but so far so good.

walk

11-28-06, 10:04 PM

That's funny, now that you mention it. I thought my remote was running low on battery or something, because I have definitely noticed sometimes buttons are just... ignored.

This is different than the old "I pushed the button and now the box has it queued up and will do what I told it some time later in the future" bug. It's more like "I pushed the button and NOTHING F'ING HAPPENED AT ALL NOT EVEN THE LIGHT ON THE FRONT LIT UP WTF#$@%"

I might be going insane though.

efball

11-28-06, 11:01 PM

That's funny, now that you mention it. I thought my remote was running low on battery or something, because I have definitely noticed sometimes buttons are just... ignored.

I'm seeing the same problem. Button pushes used to always be executed, sometimes it just took a long time, now it frequently just ignores them, and there are still delays. The delays are more frequent, but not as long.

Once it just locked up on me when I hit the 15 second rewind button. I let it sit for 15 minutes, then yanked the power cord. I'm not the only one this has happened to either. Overall more of a sideways move than an improvement.

And now the analog channels usually (almost always) have a bright blue line down the right edge of the picture. My 4:3 override is set to off and the format is set to 1080i (but it does the same thing at 480p, my TV doesn't sync at 720p). I have to switch to the s-video output to get rid of it. I have heard of one other person who has seen this, but apparently it's not common. I'll trade boxes when I get around to it, maybe I can get a 6416.

On the plus side my three phantom 1989 recordings are finally gone. I had tried every technique suggested to get rid of them, but no joy.

I hear the Tivo (TM) firmware for these boxes has been delayed until late spring. I'm curious to see what they can do with the Motorola box, I just hope it's cheaper than they are charging for their own boxes, the new rates are getting outrageous, but if they put Motorola to shame it might be worth it.

cgould

11-28-06, 11:45 PM

My question one more time, a fairly simple one :). Still pondering about getting the Comcast DVR, does it display closed captioning well for both SD and HD? Better through component? Or HDMI?

I don't have a perfect reply , but no others yet so here goes...

CC is OK, sometimes isn't perfect, but my Tivo sometimes misses stuff on some shows eg Smallville. One bummer is that the FFwd on the 6412 is too fast, it breaks up/garbles the CC, whereas on the Tivo (regular and HD-S3) it's slow/smooth enough to show the CC still (speed thru boring shows :) )
It should work for both HD and SD shows (digital SD at least); can't recall perfectly about analog SD, since I tended to watch SD from my old Tivo , rather than via the 6412's poor SD upscaling.

This is from watching on component; since it's added to the video stream, I'd _assume_ it's on the HDMI output also, but since I don't have HDMI I couldn't say. (I'm lucky in that my old Mits RP-CRT only has component, so no HDCP/HDMI negotiation bug hassles. Sometimes analog is better...)

On SD (I mean S-video output), I don't think it outputs the CC... but I mostly used the Svideo out for HD programs, and due to the single-resolution text overlay, it won't show the UI graphics either. It might work for an SD program showing on SVideo port, not sure. (I returned my 6412 for Tivo, can't test it now.)

GBruno

11-29-06, 02:16 PM

I am also having the "blue line" issue since the upgrade. I have 4:3 on override for the best PQ so I dont want to change that. Is it the box going bad? Any other solutions?

Thanks, Greg

RBurks

11-29-06, 07:34 PM

I forgot one other 6412 "feature" I got with the firmware update...

Occasionally while changing channels using the channel up/down buttons the TV display goes blank. Then nothing responds. I can mash buttons, or input channel numbers and the box blinks half heartedly but displays nothing - not even the clock or current channel. Its like it goes into a suspended netherworld state.

The only thing that brings it back is turning the power off (yes the remote works to power it off/on), and it comes back up fine. Many times if I hit channel up/down again it repeats this. It never corrects itself, it always takes a power cycle. Then at some point it works again without problems after a power cycle.

walk

11-29-06, 09:41 PM

Locking up during DVR shuttle operations is quite common. Seems to get worse if you use the 1394 output. I always power-cycle my box on Sunday mornings before football so that the DVR shuttle controls actually work right.

Since the update, BOTH of my boxes (3412 & 6200) have just completely rebooted on me while I was messing around in the menu. Forget exactly what I was doing.. but the box turned off, then the display read 88:88 for a second, then the running dash (-) bit. As if I had unplugged it. Lost all guide data too of course.

I don't have "blue line" issue though I use 1080i & 4:3 Override = off. But my HDTV overscans quite a bit (46" RPTV) so much that sometimes network bugs are cut off a little bit.

dlou99

11-30-06, 03:53 AM

Nope. Bitstream transmission and AKE (Authentication and Key Exchange) are two entirely separate processes.

Oh yeah, I forgot Firewire has separate async and isoch channels (with the exchange key computed in the async domain and the content key in the isoch domain).

WillKoo

11-30-06, 03:44 PM

I just bought a Sceptre X32GV-Komodo LCD/HDTV with built in QAM. I have Comcast basic. I was able to get some (5) digital channels and some 40 or so radio channels. But no HDTV. Should the local HDTV be in the open? Do I need Comcast's HD box($5)?

Any help would be appreciated.

karlw2000

11-30-06, 04:15 PM

WillKoo

11-30-06, 05:21 PM

Did you change the Sceptre setting to 'Cable'? I have the same set and got lots of HD channels.

Yea. Set to Cable, Auto, and then scan. I did pick up 4 for 5 digital stations. 83-1, 83-2, or something like that. Just nothing under HDTV. I even manually put in 2-1, 3-1, 4-1 and so on. Nothing.

I was wondering if it was a Fremont Comcast thing. Does the scramber/filter for the Comcast Basic Extended prevent it from coming through?

Poochie

11-30-06, 09:40 PM

I know I won't be finding a HD feed of the NFL Network Thurs night games in my 550MHz system, but am I correct in my assessment that we don't even get the SD channel for NFL Network?

Seems like yet another symptom of the low-bandwidth blues - perhaps a good way to raise awareness/gripe by writing the Merc sports section about how and why some cities miss out on some NFL games but pay the same as others.

Or am I just misinterpreting things, and Comcast actually piggybacks the games (in glorious SD, no doubt) onto some other channel during the game? My Tivo's guide (S3 w/CableCards), Yahoo, and TV Guide didn't provide me any evidence of such an event, but I've seen them play similar games with FSN in the past...

fender4645

11-30-06, 10:55 PM

SD version should be on channel 180.

gfbuchanan

11-30-06, 11:12 PM

wco81

11-30-06, 11:15 PM

Yeah channel 725, the post game is in SD with ugly gray bars on the side.

WAs it HD during the game?

nikeykid

11-30-06, 11:27 PM

Yeah channel 725, the post game is in SD with ugly gray bars on the side.

WAs it HD during the game?

yes. it was OK pq. some macroblocking.

jasanity

11-30-06, 11:30 PM

fender4645

12-01-06, 12:11 AM

Anyone have any experience with this?

Do you get other channels like MHD, UHD, and ESPN2HD? If not then you're most likely in a 550MHz area and won't get these, including TNTHD.

nikeykid

12-01-06, 03:13 AM

Anyone have any experience with this?

do you have at least digital classic? if not, its encrypted.

keenan

12-01-06, 03:58 AM

For those of you having problems using a computer to record from the 6412 firewire port;

Have you considered purchasing a USB QAM tuner card and hooking that up to your cable and computer? I am using the OnAir Creator to record any non-encrypted station on my Comcast loop. No problems with the Broadcast flag. And the device is fairly easy to use.

It is true that you cannot record (or view) the premium channels, since they are encrypted. But at least you can record ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, PBS and any other in-the-clear stations. And you can record in a "standard" transport stream, so that the file can be played by many other players.

So check out the OnAir GT and/or Creator. It will allow you to record your favorite broadcast shows, irregardless of the Broadcast Flag.

Greg
I haven't had any BF recording problems, haven't used firewire in years, but I've been using the HDHomeRun for about a week and it works great for QAM with Comcast. I've got some video issues, using SageTV, but the HDHomeRun works just like it's supposed to. A dual-tuner QAM/ATSC device that connects by ethernet for $170.

http://www.silicondust.com/zxc/content/view/5/26/
Silicondust Engineering - HDHomeRun

Poochie

12-01-06, 12:27 PM

SD version should be on channel 180.

Not in my lineup. So it looks like we're SOL on getting the Thurs/Sat NFL games this year in Sunnyvale. Yay.

I even later had a chat conversation with a rep at Comcast, she confirmed it's not in my lineup no matter what level of service I subscribe to, but alluded to the fact that they're "upgrading services in [my] area at the moment" and "this may be one of the channels that they will be adding to your area". No time frame was given for this, even when asked. I guess I'll believe it when I see it... oh well.

fender4645

12-01-06, 01:15 PM

Not in my lineup. So it looks like we're SOL on getting the Thurs/Sat NFL games this year in Sunnyvale. Yay.

I even later had a chat conversation with a rep at Comcast, she confirmed it's not in my lineup no matter what level of service I subscribe to, but alluded to the fact that they're "upgrading services in [my] area at the moment" and "this may be one of the channels that they will be adding to your area". No time frame was given for this, even when asked. I guess I'll believe it when I see it... oh well.

That's odd. I didn't realize they were neglecting the 550ers on SD channels as well...I thought it was just HD and VOD.

hiker

12-01-06, 02:13 PM

On my lineup, chan 180 NFL Network is part of Digital Plus tier $14.95/mo. I only have Digital Classic so I can't view chan 180 but I do see the Thursday night NFL Network games on chan 725 in HD.

walk

12-01-06, 03:54 PM

On my lineup, chan 180 NFL Network is part of Digital Plus tier $14.95/mo. I only have Digital Classic so I can't view chan 180 but I do see the Thursday night NFL Network games on chan 725 in HD.Same deal here. I assume that is because the HD feed is sponsored by INHD, which we do get.

If you can't find NFL on 180 it's also in the 400s somewhere (417?), but you do need Digital "Plus" or something like that, "Classic" doesn't get NFL.

Regarding QAM tuner cards, yes I've looked at them, but until they make ones with CableCard(s) that can Tivo encrypted channels, I'm not really interested.

TPeterson

12-01-06, 04:27 PM

Then I think that you can expect to stay "not really interested" for a long time. ;)

BTW, in case there's any doubt out there among readers of this thread, none of the PC-based tuners has any issues with Broadcast Flag. (And you can set up a very sophisticated HD PVR for the clear-QAM channels using MyHD or FusionHDTV with AllenDB's Record_This or the Cliff Watson EPG addon for MyHD [and soon Fusion, later other cards]--see the threads in the HTPC forum)

Catt99

12-01-06, 04:48 PM

I am in San Carlos. I am a HDTV / Digital Silver package subscriber (basically full package plus one premium channel) - no DVR. I am installing a bedroom set. I stopped by my local office to pick up another comcast box for the bedroom. They want $6.95 per month for the box, plus $5.00 per month for the HDTV signal. (I obiviously already pay for the HDTV signal to my family room).

That's basically $12.00 per month to get the same viewing options in another room that I already have in the next room over - and for which I pay $84.20 per month. Does that sound right? It sounds outrageous to me. I guess my other option is to not use a box, and forego getting OnDemand, my HBO channels, and whatever HD channels are encrypted (prob all but local)? Something just feels not right. Any insights on this (i.e., confirmation of this state of affairs or suggesstions)? Thanks.

fender4645

12-01-06, 05:06 PM

Then I think that you can expect to stay "not really interested" for a long time. ;)

I'm in the same boat as walk. Much of my "tv watching" time is used on encrypted channels and I have no desire to have some sort of a "hybrid" setup to watch 2 different types of channels. I do have an HTPC setup with M$ Media Center but I use that solely for watching downloaded programs and DVDs I've ripped.

On the same subject, there was news earlier this week about Vista and its support for CableCARDs. Apparently you won't be able to stream HD content from CableLABS's certified PC to another PC -- only officially supported Media Extenders (which right now means XBox 360) http://www.cepro.com/news/editorial/16442.html This doesn't surprise me too much considering CableLABS denied Tivo's request to include the home media option on the S3's. Tivo did say that eventually they would be able to do this so I'm hoping the same holds true for HTPC's that have CableCARD support.

fender4645

12-01-06, 05:16 PM

12-01-06, 05:56 PM

They want $6.95 per month for the box, plus $5.00 per month for the HDTV signal. (I obiviously already pay for the HDTV signal to my family room).

$5 is for HD set top box rental, not HDTV service. If you get a SD box, you pay $6.95 for the additional outlet. If you want a HD box, add $5. If you want a DVR instead of the HD box, add $10 instead of $5.

Zappcatt

12-01-06, 06:54 PM

fender4645

12-01-06, 07:10 PM

That is the same here in Santa Clara. I also think it sucks..

If you need to purchase an HDTV service for each room, why don't you have to repurchase the basic cable also?

I thought my only increase in cost would be the "rental" of the box.

Due to other changes in the house(getting rid of 2 analog sets), Satelite is starting to look a lot better.

As C3 pointed out, the $5 surcharge is for the box, not the service so technically your increase in cost was only for the "rental".

walk

12-01-06, 08:12 PM

"Additional outlet" charges work like this:

Each additional "outlet" - aka BOX, is $6.95. For this you get the basic black (non-HD) Comcast digital cable box (& remote).
+ To upgrade to a silver HD box (non-DVR) = +$5.00, aka "HDTV service fee" ($11.95 total)
+ To upgrade to a silver HD-DVR box = +$9.95, aka "DVR service fee" ($16.90 total)

Catt99

12-01-06, 09:06 PM

fender4645

12-01-06, 10:31 PM

Thanks guys. I understand how it works a little better now. But I still think it's ridiculous. Using a TV with tuner, the only things the box is required for are (1) OnDemand, and (2) decoding channels that I've already paid for. So, I can forego various channels I pay for (and lose OnDemand), or I can pay $150 p/year for the channels I already pay $1000 p/year for (and get OnDemand as a byproduct) - BTW, I never really considered that I'm paying ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS PER YEAR for television services - yikes! :eek: . I'd gladly lose OnDemand for $12 bucks a month; I don't think I want to lose OnDemand, 8 HBO channels, 1 HBO HD channel; and 5 or 6 HD channels that are encrypted -- but only decrypted at the outlet instead of the junction box.

You can see now why alternate forms of decryption are necessary for the consumer. Whether it be CableCARD, OCAP, or whatever, consumers need a *choice* as to how they get their TV. For me, paying $17/month for a DVR isn't the end of the world especially for not having to pay any up-front equipment fee. But having to pay $10/month just to watch a certain channel in an additional room is just plain wrong.

maxBR

12-02-06, 01:14 AM

I really hate Comcast. I had no idea about this section of the forum, or any of the software updates they rolled out on nov 17th. All i knew is that between 2 and 3 weeks ago I lost HD service out of my dct6412. One service call, two live service chats, and my third new cable box later I finally come here. Not one of the people I talked to at Comcast mentioned the service menu. All I had to do was change the output resolution back to 1080i after the update set it to 480p. Why are these settings even hidden in this menu? Why didn't the techs have me try this? The solution is so obvious once you know about it but Comcast is totally incompetent. If I had any other high speed internet options available at my address I would drop them right now, but the highest DSL speed here is 1.5mbps. (Although if I had faster DSL available I'd have never signed up for Comcast in the first place.) Crummy service aside, they are a plain rip off. I hate them.

Ok thank you for letting me vent. :)

garypen

12-02-06, 02:43 AM

My question one more time, a fairly simple one :). Still pondering about getting the Comcast DVR, does it display closed captioning well for both SD and HD? Better through component? Or HDMI?CC works fine on both SD and HD, and with both HDMI and Component outputs. You can even customize CC appearance using the service menu.

jraisner

12-02-06, 11:35 AM

I just received a (brand new) 3416 in San Mateo, and as expected I just lost channels 2-99. A call to a CSR resulted in the following:

The insistence that they cannot do anything if I don't provide my account number (never mind they had all of my info on their screen at the time).

A long hold time after I asked to be transferred.

Not getting transferred, instead being asked the serial number on the box.

The CSR said that she sent a signal to the box, but nothing happened on the box.

She then had me pull the plug from the back and wait.

I checked again and still did not have channels 2-99.

Finally she told me I'd need to exchange my box.

I find it extremely unlikely that my box is defective. More likely the CSR was defective. I'm still without 2-99 - I suppose I need to wait and hope to speak with someone else.

This is frustrating.

nikeykid

12-02-06, 12:43 PM

is anyone else having issues with ESPN2HD and TNTHD? I get a "this channel will be available shortly" on only those two channels. is it just my headend?

Catt99

12-02-06, 12:50 PM

is anyone else having issues with ESPN2HD and TNTHD? I get a "this channel will be available shortly" on only those two channels. is it just my headend?

Fine in San Carlos.

walk

12-02-06, 01:17 PM

But having to pay $10/month just to watch a certain channel in an additional room is just plain wrong.
You can rent a CableCard for $6.95 (I think) if your TV supports it. You would lose VOD though.

walk

12-02-06, 01:19 PM

I just received a (brand new) 3416 in San Mateo, and as expected I just lost channels 2-99. This is completely normal when you first plug it in. Just wait a few hours and the box will sync.
In the meantime you can probably watch HBO/Showtime/etc for free... :rolleyes:

fender4645

12-02-06, 01:34 PM

You can rent a CableCard for $6.95 (I think) if your TV supports it. You would lose VOD though.

For the most part, only higher-end TV's have CC support. In my findings, many more TV's don't have CableCARD support than those that do. Of course if the government would get off its butt and actually followed through with a law they passed 10 years ago, we'd be fine. Okay, maybe not fine...but better than we are now.

Mikef5

12-02-06, 01:46 PM

For the most part, only higher-end TV's have CC support. In my findings, many more TV's don't have CableCARD support than those that do. Of course if the government would get off its butt and actually followed through with a law they passed 10 years ago, we'd be fine. Okay, maybe not fine...but better than we are now.
LG is coming out with a 42" plasma with OCAP built into it and will have a multi-stream cable card in it also. Here's the link..... http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/11/29/lgs-ocap-equipped-42pc1dn-hd-plasma-on-the-way/

Looks like multi-stream cable cards are finally going to show up, a lot sooner than I thought they would ;) .
I wonder when or if Comcast is going to support this ???

Laters,
Mikef5

jasanity

12-02-06, 02:13 PM

maxBR

12-02-06, 02:40 PM

My new box started with the blue line on the right hand side of SD content thismorning. Is there an easy way to get rid of it?

fender4645

12-02-06, 03:35 PM

LG is coming out with a 42" plasma with OCAP built into it and will have a multi-stream cable card in it also. Here's the link..... http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/11/29/lgs-ocap-equipped-42pc1dn-hd-plasma-on-the-way/

Looks like multi-stream cable cards are finally going to show up, a lot sooner than I thought they would ;) .
I wonder when or if Comcast is going to support this ???

Laters,
Mikef5

Very nice. I wonder what the price point will be on this. I'm not sure about the multi-stream CableCARD but I remember hearing that Comcast will begin upgrading their head-ends early next year to be OCAP compatible and will take 1 to 2 years for all systems to get the upgrades. So if the past holds any precedent, the Bay Area should be able to use this TV in about 3 years.

fender4645

12-02-06, 03:43 PM

ok, so I pulled the trigger and got comcast digital with the HD PVR (extra $20 a month! what a rip-off!). Anyways, the picture on a lot of stations is blocky, or has blocks randomly appear on the screen. What's going on here? I thought this was only a problem with satellite?

I suggest you read this (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/How_to_use_a_Motorola_DVR/Configuration), specifically the section on Incoming Signal Strength and see if you have problems with your line.

wco81

12-02-06, 04:53 PM

jraisner

12-02-06, 05:11 PM

keenan

12-02-06, 06:44 PM

OK, on the D* feed of KGO HD, the UCLA-USC game gets smearing as the action moves too fast. But when you go to the KABC feed (in MPEG2 vs. MPEG4), it doesn't have this problem.

IIRC, the problkem is at KGO's end, not Comcast or Direct TV.
It is a KGO problem. That smearing, or out of focus to in focus problem has been with KGO for at least 2 years that I can recall. They obviously don't know how, or can't due to equipment, be able to fix it. It gets really bad with basketball. I hate watching sports on ABC/KGO because of this problem. When it's at it's worst, the image looks like an SD upconvert.

As you've noted, KABC-LA doesn't have the problem and neither does WXYZ from Detroit.

wco81

12-02-06, 07:22 PM

Geez, is KGO too cheap to get a new encoder?

They're not doing their news in HD yet are they? KABC is and so is KTVU.

keenan

12-02-06, 09:01 PM

Geez, is KGO too cheap to get a new encoder?

They're not doing their news in HD yet are they? KABC is and so is KTVU.
I don't know what the problem is but I noticed some really bad cases of the focus problem while watching KGO just since my last post. There's no way they could be monitoring their HD signal properly and not see these problems.

PerkyNot

12-02-06, 09:35 PM

Three more tries to resolve the missing channels 2-99 has resulted in the same assurance by CSRs that the box is defective.

I checked, and yes I do have free hbo etc, so I'll just ride it out and see when the problem corrects itself.

Just my luck there's nothing but chick flicks on right now.

I changed out my 6412 III about a month and 1/2 ago for a 3412 which I picked up at the store. When I first installed it I had all channels including the premium channel which I normally don't get and all channels 2-99 were digital. The next morning I had no channels 2 - 99. I called Comcast and the CSR knew there was a problem and tried to reset my box. She couldn't get it to work so she spoke to her Supervisor. What was interesting was that somehow my box was homed to 2 different headends (San Mateo and Redwood City). Her Supervisor did something and cleared out that issue. I was moved to the Redwood City headend. She reset my box again and all channels 2 - 99 came back and were digital. I don't know if you have the same issue but I would demand that they let you speak to a supervisor. I don't believe it will just fix itself.

Good luck

John

amdspitfire

12-02-06, 11:23 PM

no digital sport pack available in Los Gatos! They said upgrades should be complete in approximately 1 year!

This must be a joke.

davisdog

12-02-06, 11:26 PM

no digital sport pack available in Los Gatos! They said upgrades should be complete in approximately 1 year!

This must be a joke.

It's not a joke...

It's been "in approxiamately 1 year" for the last 2+ years and they havent done anything yet (dont want to spend money to upgrade the area) so it will be at least a year again...

That's why I got DishHD now in Saratoga (and enjoying every minute of it)

keenan

12-03-06, 04:18 AM

...trust me...the check's in the mail...I'm from the federal government and I'm here to help you...the area will be upgraded in approxiamately 1 year...

bareyb

12-03-06, 04:28 PM

Hi Gang. New to all this. I am thinking of switching to Comcast Cable and their HDTV pkg. Any problems getting major network (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC) programming, SHO, HBO, Etc. from Comcast around here? Any major problems I should be aware of? Thanks in advance for the advice! :)

jraisner

12-03-06, 05:35 PM

I changed out my 6412 III about a month and 1/2 ago for a 3412 which I picked up at the store. When I first installed it I had all channels including the premium channel which I normally don't get and all channels 2-99 were digital. The next morning I had no channels 2 - 99. I called Comcast and the CSR knew there was a problem and tried to reset my box. She couldn't get it to work so she spoke to her Supervisor. What was interesting was that somehow my box was homed to 2 different headends (San Mateo and Redwood City). Her Supervisor did something and cleared out that issue. I was moved to the Redwood City headend. She reset my box again and all channels 2 - 99 came back and were digital. I don't know if you have the same issue but I would demand that they let you speak to a supervisor. I don't believe it will just fix itself.

Good luck

John
More efforts to resolve my loss of channels 2-99 have resulted in the same suggestion to wait and see or else exchange the box. They are pretty stubborn about call escalation.

I would exhange the box at this point except that I feel like I'd end up with the same issue.

Is is a good assumption that the disappearance of 2-99 (while receiving free premium channels) something other than a hardware glitch?

I'm going to try sending an email and see if I get better results. I can only spend so much time with the CSRs per day before tearing my hair out.

eduardoj

12-03-06, 06:20 PM

nikeykid

12-04-06, 12:40 PM

They insisted I didn't get ESPN2HD because my STB was defective and that I needed to replace it and/or have a service call. No, actually, I just live in Sunnyvale where we don't get it (or On Demand, or TNT HD, or ..). Point is, don't believe anything they say, because that's the only answer they have to give.

They were downright RUDE when I started asking about firmware and software updates - ones I knew would fix some of my problems. Good luck.

i couldn't see ESPN2HD and TNTHD for two days, i placed a call to them insisting something is wrong at my local headend, and they instead made an appointment for me! well what do you know, those two channels reappeared today so i'm going to call them to cancel that bogus appointment and tell them how stupid they are for assuming my STB had issues.

ethune

12-04-06, 01:17 PM

It's not a joke...

It's been "in approxiamately 1 year" for the last 2+ years and they havent done anything yet (dont want to spend money to upgrade the area) so it will be at least a year again...

That's why I got DishHD now in Saratoga (and enjoying every minute of it)

I think I have finally reached the breaking point with comcast. I'll be headed to DISH as well shortly. Did you get the 622? I take it you are liking it...

Eric

walk

12-04-06, 01:41 PM

Is is a good assumption that the disappearance of 2-99 (while receiving free premium channels) something other than a hardware glitch?It's what happens when you first plug in a new box and before it downloads your subscription data. It shouldn't take more than a day, at most, though.

I guess the thing to do depends on if you want to continue to get the pay channels for free..... I mean your TV has an analog tuner right? You can always get a splitter and tune in 2-99 (or about 82 actually) with that.

ScottUrman

12-04-06, 06:52 PM

bobby94928

12-04-06, 07:03 PM

Comcast does not offer CW in HD anywhere in the Bay Area. They, of course, have it in SD. I'd go back to Comcast. It's available if they want to add it. It's probably a bandwidth issue.

jraisner

12-04-06, 07:08 PM

It's what happens when you first plug in a new box and before it downloads your subscription data. It shouldn't take more than a day, at most, though.

I guess the thing to do depends on if you want to continue to get the pay channels for free..... I mean your TV has an analog tuner right? You can always get a splitter and tune in 2-99 (or about 82 actually) with that.
I agree, I may have to dust off the ol' VCR, but there are only a couple of things I watch on the low channels anyway. I gave it one more shot with the online support. If it doesn't work, I'll just sit back and enjoy my HBO.

Transcript of the "Live Chat" for anyone who is interested:

JR > Please check my set up at the headend - channels 2-99 are not appearing on my 3416 box.
JR > This is my 5th contact with Comcast on this issue, so I apologize if I'm a little terse.
Steve > Justin My pleasure to help with your issue are you getting an error message on the box when you try these channels?
JR > No, there is no error message. They do not appear in the Iguide
JR > From what I've seen on the internet, this is a fairly common occurance when a new 3416 is installed
Steve > If the channels appear with a diirect connection to your tv this indicates that your equipment may have lost part of its programming signal from the network, I will attempt to send a reprogramming signal from here to rectify the issue.
Steve > Thanks, this is not a headend issue if so you would not get channels with a direct connection to the tv as you stated, however I do see that a previous signal was sent your equipment alread, since this did not correct the issue we can schedule a service call to have this investigated but in the mean time, I would first suggest that you power the box down, then unplug it and wait for a few minutes, then plug it back up again to allow it to reprogram for about 10-15 minutes and test after that. This would prompt the box to download new programming.

JasonQG

12-05-06, 01:09 AM

nikeykid

12-05-06, 01:39 AM

Mikef5

12-05-06, 02:20 AM

keenan!! merry christmas??
Wow, if true, could this be a harbinger of things to come ???? Maybe there is hope for the rest of the 550 MHz areas..... of course only time will tell ;)

Laters,
Mikef5

keenan

12-05-06, 03:46 AM

keenan!! merry christmas??
Indeed. Even better, I'm getting it with just a Limited Basic subscription. Probably not for long though. :p

While it doesn't appear to be in the guide, NBA-TV is showing up on QAM channel 6-1. I noticed it when scanning for channels with the HDHomeRun unit.

keenan

12-05-06, 03:52 AM

Wow, if true, could this be a harbinger of things to come ???? Maybe there is hope for the rest of the 550 MHz areas..... of course only time will tell ;)

Laters,
Mikef5
Hopefully, of course since we lost a local access station to add it I wouldn't expect too much more, maybe one more HD channel, as I doubt the city is going to cut loose with anymore of them.

As I noted above, it looks like FSNBA-HD is sharing the QAM 6 channel with NBA-TV so they could probably add one more HD channel in that slot. Is the NBA-TV channel on other systems in the bay area?

sfhub

12-05-06, 11:23 AM

Hopefully, of course since we lost a local access station to add it I wouldn't expect too much more, maybe one more HD channel, as I doubt the city is going to cut loose with anymore of them.

As I noted above, it looks like FSNBA-HD is sharing the QAM 6 channel with NBA-TV so they could probably add one more HD channel in that slot. Is the NBA-TV channel on other systems in the bay area?
Now that there is precedent, you can lobby for SoapTV to move to digital tier just like it is in the other Bay Area communities.

That would be 2 more HD channels for you!

Hamel

12-05-06, 11:33 AM

Hello all,
Apologies if this information can be found elsewhere, I tried to search but must have used the wrong keywords. We just got 2 cablecards for our new Tivo Series3 and got the hidef service from Comcast, but the CW is not available in hidef. I called Comcast, and they said to complain to CW, not them. Does anybody know who exactly I could complain to? Thanks.

In the Bay Area you can get CW-HD over-the-air on 44.1 (?) broadcasting from Sutro Tower in San Francisco. Depending on your situation, a small indoor antenna could (i.e., will probably) suffice. And your TiVo S3 will simultaneously and intelligently accomodate both cable and antenna input.

I have this very setup at my place in San Francisco. FYI, I am using a Terk HDTVi antenna that I got from Amazon for about $23. I also figure that my antenna setup serves as a backup for many (HD) channels in case the cable ever goes out.

ScottUrman

12-05-06, 12:59 PM

In the Bay Area you can get CW-HD over-the-air on 44.1 (?) broadcasting from Sutro Tower in San Francisco. Depending on your situation, a small indoor antenna could (i.e., will probably) suffice. And your TiVo S3 will simultaneously and intelligently accomodate both cable and antenna input.

I have this very setup at my place in San Francisco. FYI, I am using a Terk HDTVi antenna that I got from Amazon for about $23. I also figure that my antenna setup serves as a backup for many (HD) channels in case the cable ever goes out.

I tried an antenna when we first installed the Tivo (with the hope of not needing the cablecards), but couldn't get a clear signal. Maybe I should revisit that again. Thanks for the advice.

keenan

12-05-06, 02:11 PM

Now that there is precedent, you can lobby for SoapTV to move to digital tier just like it is in the other Bay Area communities.

That would be 2 more HD channels for you!
Yes, I guess it might be time to start banging on doors again, I'd pretty much just said the hell with it awhile back, but your right, there's doesn't seem to be any reason why they couldn't move SoapTV now that they've actually done something major for the first time in 3 years. Got a whole new group of politicians in the city council now after Nov's election--time for some more classes on cable TV in Santa Rosa. :p

dcs

12-05-06, 04:24 PM

Minimum Package to Receive All Non-Premium HD?
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Can someone let me know what the minimum Comcast package you have been able to purchase is that will get you all non-premium HD channels.

In my area (Campbell, CA) I want:

702 KTVU (Fox)
703 KNTV (NBC)
704 KRON (IND)
705 KPIX (CBS)
707 KGO (ABC)
709 KQED (PBS)
719 INHD - 1
720 FSNBA (Check Local Listings for times)
722 Discovery-HD
723 ESPN - HD
724 ESPN2 HD
725 NFL Network HD
725 HD Special Events
726 TNT HD
727 Universal HD
728 MHD

I currently have the HD DVR (6412 I think) and some initial bundle they gave me with one of the digital packages plus HBO and high speed internet. It was around $100 a month, but now that the trial period is over it's up over $140.

So I'm looking to cut down my package to the minimum price that can get me the above HD channels with HD DVR box and high speed internet. Any advice would be great.

Will basic suffice?

-dcs

BTW, is it possible to get another bundle with a new trial price for another period as an existing customer? Note, I will not consider adding digital voice (phone service).

nikeykid

12-05-06, 04:31 PM

hiker

12-05-06, 04:41 PM

Minimum Package to Receive All Non-Premium HD?
-
You should be able to get all non-premium HD with Limited Basic + Digital Classic, like I do for $33/mo. However like nikeykid mentioned, those two packages will not allow you to also get a Comcast DVR (Standard Cable required) so I have a TiVo Series3 DVR with two cablecards ($1.50/mo) plus cost of TiVo subscription.

dcs

12-05-06, 04:46 PM

Thanks for the quick responses.

You should be able to get all non-premium HD with Limited Basic + Digital Classic, like I do for $33/mo. However like nikeykid mentioned, those two packages will not allow you to also get a Comcast DVR (Standard Cable required)...

So what will happen if I opt for "Limited Basic + Digital Classic"? Will they come over and take my current HD DVR box?

Their service contract stipulations and contingencies are getting worse than cell phone providers...geesh.

Also, any insight on getting back to my "trial" pricing as an existing customer?

-dcs

walk

12-05-06, 05:31 PM

Call them and say you are cancelling because of the price increase you read about in the newspaper and are going to get satellite instead.

Digital "Classic" is the min. you need to get all those channels.

madkiwi

12-05-06, 05:59 PM

Can anyone point me to a list of the Comcast digital channels in QAM format for San Francisco/Daly City? With the Comcast channel equivalent next to each one?

I have a new LCD tv that has a built in QAM tuner, and tried just plugging in our basic extended cable feed and ran a scan. It found and memorized a bunch of both digital and analog stations, but it does not map the digital channels to an understandable number. So it shows KTVU-DT as 87-1 for example. And my set does not allow me to re-number them manually (an innovative feature that even my 13 year old Sony hi-fi vcr has).

I did search this thread, and could not find the info (at least not using the search terms I tried).

Thanks.

TPeterson

12-05-06, 08:30 PM

They may not be understandable, but your TV is telling you the actual locations of the channels on the cable feed. The numbers that Comcast uses for convenience are mapped to those locations by programming from the head end, which changes whenever Comcast feels like it. That's why the answer to your first question is, "no."

keenan

12-05-06, 09:51 PM

I just noticed FSN-HD is up in Santa Rosa! Whoa! When did that happen? I noticed a few days ago that channel 6 (public access) was gone, and I was hoping they'd do something useful with that bandwidth.
..and then there were none...it's gone as of 6:50pm...NBA-TV on 6 is gone as well....must be moving things around to get us another 10-20 HD channels. :p :D

Catt99

12-05-06, 10:13 PM

I agree, I may have to dust off the ol' VCR, but there are only a couple of things I watch on the low channels anyway. I gave it one more shot with the online support. If it doesn't work, I'll just sit back and enjoy my HBO.

Transcript of the "Live Chat" for anyone who is interested:

JR > Please check my set up at the headend - channels 2-99 are not appearing on my 3416 box.
JR > This is my 5th contact with Comcast on this issue, so I apologize if I'm a little terse.
Steve > Justin My pleasure to help with your issue are you getting an error message on the box when you try these channels?
JR > No, there is no error message. They do not appear in the Iguide
JR > From what I've seen on the internet, this is a fairly common occurance when a new 3416 is installed
Steve > If the channels appear with a diirect connection to your tv this indicates that your equipment may have lost part of its programming signal from the network, I will attempt to send a reprogramming signal from here to rectify the issue.
Steve > Thanks, this is not a headend issue if so you would not get channels with a direct connection to the tv as you stated, however I do see that a previous signal was sent your equipment alread, since this did not correct the issue we can schedule a service call to have this investigated but in the mean time, I would first suggest that you power the box down, then unplug it and wait for a few minutes, then plug it back up again to allow it to reprogram for about 10-15 minutes and test after that. This would prompt the box to download new programming.

This may be a really stupid suggestion / question, but I'm a reasonably long-time Comcast box user and recently installed a second box (bitching about cost further up in thread :p ) and because I was so familiar with how the box worked, never read any instructions, etc. What I failed to recall was that there are user preferences regarding the remote control inputs -- specifically, the channel numbers. The default setting on my new box was that any channel less than three digits (i.e., 2 - 99) required me to input the channel number AND the "OK / Select" button instead of just inputting the channel (the way my family-room box is set-up). End result is I could "get" anything over channel 100, but the box "wouldn't" switch to channel 12 for example -- I was also getting a variety of free premium channels as you describe (though my box is the non-DVR DCT6200). I noticed last night that using ChanUp from 999 brought me signals in channels 2+, as did ChanDown from 119 (went to 96) but the box "wouldn't" switch to channels 2-99; and when I lost my free premiums without getting access to 2-99 I was annoyed. It took me until today to remember that there are various remote configuration options (other than output resolutions which I set upon first powering it on), and to try pressing 12 + Select -- Voila -- switch to analog channels. Now I just have to go through the set-up to get consistent remote behavior box-to-box.

I hope you've not gone through all these headaches because someone from Comcast failed to suggest the channel switching requirements of the default set-up.

jraisner

12-05-06, 10:56 PM

Sticman

12-06-06, 12:02 PM

I cannot find the answer to this in here so...

I have a Panasonic plasma w/ATSC. I plug that directly into my Comcast coax (not via the cable box) and I can view local HD channels.
I just got a Sylvania LCD w/ATSC. I plug that into the same coax (no splitter) and after it scans, it finds no digital or HD channels.
Is there something wrong with the Sylvania's ATSC, or maybe this HD tuner isn't as sensative?
I'm in a 550 area in the Bay Area.
I'm very frustrated and appreciative of any advice.
Thanks alot.

fender4645

12-06-06, 12:07 PM

nikeykid

12-06-06, 12:17 PM

Sticman

12-06-06, 12:29 PM

Are you sure the Sylvania TV has a QAM tuner and not just an OTA ATSC tuner? What model TV is it?
Thanks alot.
Its a Sylvania 6626LCT.

fender4645

12-06-06, 12:32 PM

Thanks alot.
Its a Sylvania 6626LCT.

According to the Sylvania web site (http://www.sylvaniaconsumerelectronics.com/products/lcd/specPage%5C6626LCT.html) it's only NTSC/ATSC -- no QAM. Bummer.

Sticman

12-06-06, 12:33 PM

your panasonic has a QAM, your sylvania doesn't. ATSC will get you digital channels off an antenna, which both TVs have. QAM tuner will get you unencrypted digital cable channels.
Thanks very much nikeykid.
OK, so now I know...all ATSC tuners are not the same.
If I want to be able to view HD w/o a box, I need to make sure the TV has QAM.
That's REALLY helpful!

walk

12-06-06, 01:04 PM

Thanks for the suggestion - I tried that, but it seems to be something else. I did discover that On Demand is not working for me either.

I give up. If Comcast is going to give me free HBO, MAX, and SHO in exchange for what amounts to South Park and Battlestar Gallactica, I'll take the trade and watch my two shows live.
Do you have HD? BSG is on Universal-HD now (UHD/ch 727 I think).
No clue if they are showing them in the right order though. I watched the one last week, and then this week they had one of those "last time on ...." but showed scenes of stuff I've never seen...

South Park you can tune with any analog tuner (ch 63 right?)...

sfhub

12-06-06, 01:17 PM

According to the Sylvania web site (http://www.sylvaniaconsumerelectronics.com/products/lcd/specPage%5C6626LCT.html) it's only NTSC/ATSC -- no QAM. Bummer.
The Sylvania website is probably correct.

However I've noticed a few cases with Panasonic TVs where they didn't list QAM tuner, but it actually had one.

nikeykid

12-06-06, 01:33 PM

QAM tuner is the first thing i look for in a new TV, especially as a comcast customer :)

mterzich

12-06-06, 01:42 PM