...Using an LOS calculator one can find that given the heights involved, we could have been as much as 137 miles apart before the "average earth" gets in the way... So never accept the "it can't be done" answer until you try it.This test by quarque is fascinating and kind of supports my rantings about stomping CW to smithereens when it comes to OTA reception. I believe AntennaWeb.org does more harm than good; and as a related extension I believe attic antenna solutions based on my experience can be easily achieved by many and if doable are much more preferable to big structures of outside metal.

one more question, if everyone will indulge me. the terrain is relatively flat in both directions to receive the OTA signals. my question is how much will the height of the antenna matter? i know there are those who think "higher is better" but my concern is this: i want the easiest possible access to the antenna in case i have to find one that works if the first one doesn't or adjust it or things of that nature. if it's closer to the roof it will obviously be easier. also the antenna will be going directly on top of the roof as i live in an underground house.

thanks again everyone.

my question is how much will the height of the antenna matter?My philosophy is this: If my attic 4228 had not worked out so numbingly successful for astronomical distances, I was ready to start at the roof's ridge vent and go in stages as high as needed to get good OTA digital reception. I had warily eyed those longer metal TV mast sections at Lowe's & wondered where they would have had to be stopped and a tower would have had to be the option. The sky was the limit but then I'm an HD nut.

...I believe AntennaWeb.org does more harm than good; and as a related extension I believe attic antenna solutions based on my experience can be easily achieved by many and if doable are much more preferable to big structures of outside metal.

Antenna Web accurately depicts the angles between the transmitters, and with that information, I can sometimes select an antenna with a beam width or even a side lobe pattern that gives a residential antenna installation the best possible chance of being rotorless. Beyond that, Antenna Web is nearly useless.

One other thing that has been observed here many times but needs to be repeated every few days for the benefit of any newbies is, multi-bay bowties tend to work better than do Yagis when installed inside attics, whereas the Yagi will usually match or exceed the performance of the multi-bay bowtie when used outdoors and generally puts less wind load on the antenna mast.

...multi-bay bowties tend to work better than do Yagis when installed inside attics, whereas the Yagi will usually match or exceed the performance of the multi-bay bowtie when used outdoors and generally puts less wind load on the antenna mast.I can say a double Amen! at least to the first part of this statement. After I replaced my attic RS 15-2160 with a 4228, my UHF digital reception improved dramatically. And it makes me wonder whether these Forum musings that attics block signals 30, 60 or higher percent -- and made by knowledgeable members but always causing me to cry out that that's far my experience -- but whether these attic signal blockage musings may be based on the most absolute worst case scenarios. My experience is that, with signals coming in almost exactly perpendicular to my house from great distances, shingle and plywood do little blockage. Now an incoming real oblique angle might raise roofing nails, etc. questions.

One other point, with the horrible winds I get at this elevation, I've always been concerned about putting any antenna on the roof. Forum members seem to say not just generally, but absolutely Yagis put less wind load on masts. But since I never tried any on the roof, I'm wondering if under certain conditions a 4228 for example could be as accepting of winds as for example one of those longer 100 inch or so Yagis (an XG91 for example).

This test by quarque is fascinating and kind of supports my rantings about stomping CW to smithereens when it comes to OTA reception.

Bill, I know you think common wisdom is all bunk, but this test seems to validate, rather than nullify, CW. In the future, if you think CW is wrong in a particular case, it would be helpful if you would list the piece of CW that you believe has been disproved.

In this case, three pieces of common wisdom have been verified by my count:

1) Antenna height (both receiving and transmitting) matters.
2) Transmitting power is secondary to transmitter antenna height.
3) Line-of-sight makes for very easy reception, and just about any antenna will do.

The "60-mile" rule was not disproved in this case, because that rule has the following condition: "under average terrain and antenna height."

The only thing that shocked me out of their test was a failure to get reliable reception from the 47kw station. That's plenty with LOS, so there must have been some sort of interference, either co-channel or cross-channel, impacting that signal.

And it makes me wonder whether these Forum musings that attics block signals 30, 60 or higher percent -- and made by knowledgeable members but always causing me to cry out that that's far my experience -- but whether these attic signal blockage musings may be based on the most absolute worst case scenarios. My experience is that, with signals coming in almost exactly perpendicular to my house from great distances, shingle and plywood do little blockage.

Forum members seem to say not just generally, but absolutely Yagis put less wind load on masts. But since I never tried any on the roof, I'm wondering if under certain conditions a 4228 for example could be as accepting of winds as for example one of those longer 100 inch or so Yagis (an XG91 for example).

Bill, when did you use a dB meter to determine how much signal your attic is blocking? If you haven't, then you have no idea how much signal your attic is actually blocking. Most "signal strength" meters in HD tuners report error rates, not dB strength. The fact that you're getting a signal doesn't mean that the attic *isn't* blocking 50%, 60% or more of the incoming signal. All it means is that what is getting through is still clean enough for your tuner to make sense of it. Tuners can accept very weak signals, and still show a "perfect" digital image.

Multi-bay antennas probably work better in attics because they employ the #1 solution to multipath - stacking. An 8-bay antenna is essentially a vertical and horizontal stack.

There is no doubt that under some conditions, the 4228 would have less wind load than a yagi. That condition is when the wind is blowing parallel to the reflector screen. If you're always keeping an eye on prevailing wind conditions and rotating your antenna, then wind load won't be a problem. However, just as a sail catches the wind and exerts tremendous force on it, a 4228 hit "full on" by wind is going to cause some serious problems. Add to that the fact that the 4228 weighs double the 91XG, and you've got some serious issues to deal with.

I had a Winegard HD8200P on my tower (about 16' long) and I could watch the whole tower sway in a breeze. Yet my installer told me that it had far less wind load than a 4228. In fact, they refuse to install 4228s on towers because they blow over all the time. So if the largest VHF/UHF combo has less wind load than the 4228, you can bet the 91XG is even better.

I'm sure there is less windload with a Winegard 8-bay bowtie than there is with a Channelmaster, because the Winegard doesn't have the dense reflector screen, but the Winegard 4400's and 8800's front-to-back rejection factors aren't as good as those of the corresponding the Channelmaster 4128 and 4228.

Sometimes that doesn't matter. Sometimes, the high gain of the Winegard 8-bay bowtie and its relatively narrow beam are all you need, but sometimes you need the greater front-to-back ratio as well

Sometimes that doesn't matter. Sometimes, the high gain of the Winegard 8-bay bowtie and its relatively narrow beam are all you need, but sometimes you need the greater front-to-back ratio as well

As an interesting side note, someone here did a side-by-side comparison of the 4228 to the 91XG and found that the 91XG was better on the lower channels, while the 4228 was better on the higher - exactly the opposite of what we'd expect. Turns out the 91XG has a great reflector screen, even though it is relatively light.

As an interesting side note, someone here did a side-by-side comparison of the 4228 to the 91XG and found that the 91XG was better on the lower channels, while the 4228 was better on the higher - exactly the opposite of what we'd expect. Turns out the 91XG has a great reflector screen, even though it is relatively light.

JimC705 in Morristown, TN swears by this. It would suggest that maybe the 91XG is better on the lower channels than other comparable yagi/corner reflectors. This tempts me into my next project which may be putting up a stack of 91XG's. I've already got so many antennas I don't know what to do with them and my wife thinks I'm obsessed (maybe I am). :o

Does anyone have information on a Winegard SS 3000 indoor antenna. I'm using a Silver Sensor and it does a fantastic job on calm days (I'm within 5 or 6 miles of local broadcast towers), but HD is completely unwatchable when there is even a little breeze. I'm surrounded by trees that I could never get over with a tower. i'm hoping for some solution.

Here are press releases and spec sheet re Winegard SS3000 Sharpshooter "indoor" antenna (aka Terk HDTVIp):
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/SharpShooter_%20SS-3000_%20Press_%20Release.pdf
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/Winegard_ProBrand_Alliance_Release.pdf
http://www.winegard.com/offair/sharpshooter/pdf/SharpShooter_12-08.pdf
Note that it has a very low (1 db) Noise Figure preamp, (which could cause overload problems if you are close to a transmitter site).
The antenna section only has 0 dB gain in UHF band, -5 dB loss in hi-VHF band and -15 dB loss in lo-VHF band.

The brocure shows it being conveniently mounted on top of a plasma panel,
but that may or may not be the optimum direction for reception in your living room.
It is much more likely that you will need to rotate the antenna for best reception,
especially given the very narrow beamwidths that will be useful against multipath.
Placing it directly in the hot air exhaust of a plama panel also can cause performance and reliability problems.

I saw the SharpShooter at CES2005 in January, however the various on-line antenna sources
say that it is not yet available as a Winegard product, but BestBuy has the Terk HDTVIp for a fairly pricey $139.

Will SharpShooter help you? The higher directionality may help against multipath.
But the preamp will no doubt be overloaded.
Maybe you can let us know after you try it...and perhaps return it the next day...

Maybe you can let us know after you try it...and perhaps return it the next day...[/QUOTE]

Many thanks for the useful reply. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for my report since, at that price and with the amp. as a drawback, I'm very unlikely to try it.

Bare with me, this could get complex.

I'm 35-40 miles away from the desired tower site.

I just moved "up the hill" from my last place where I was able to pick up MOST of the HD off-air coming out of Philadelphia (Roxborough antenna farm) with a Terk urban antenna (identical to Wingard SS1000) and got even better reception with the biggest VHF/UHF/FM yagi that Radio Slack sells. I would get occasional signal drop-out from FOX29.

Where I've moved I'm now 50-75' higher in elevation and a mile closer to Phila. although I have a ton more tree cover South-Southeast of me where the antenna would aim to get to Philadelphia. I have yet to be able to receive a signal using an SS2000 from the roof top and I've tried the existing setup of the Terk with a pre-amp; Although I am able to receive WNEP-16 in Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, PA area which is of equal distance away but a clear shot (no obstructions), in the opposite direction. Unfortunately the yagi got wrecked in the move to perform any testing.

Does anyone think it would be worth it for me to buy a Channel Master Crossfire 3671 for reception through densly populated forest? If the SS2000 doesn't see jack, would the 3671?

Thanks all ahead of time!

Jeff

Does anyone think it would be worth it for me to buy a Channel Master Crossfire 3671 for reception through densly populated forest? If the SS2000 doesn't see jack, would the 3671?

If you don't need analog reception, I'd get a UHF-only antenna like the AntennasDirect 91XG. But yes, a larger antenna has a better chance of getting a good signal than a smaller one, even an amplified smaller antenna.

Ironically, your amplifier may be causing problems now - the signal might be too strong, or the reflections (which trees produce in spades) might be boosted enough to confuse the receiver. If you can, try to disable to amplifier. If you can't, a good non-amplified antenna is a good first choice.

What do analog UHF stations look like from Philly using the SS2000? Compare them to these: http://www.geocities.com/figbert/8vsb.html

Will a UHF antenna pick up any VHF signals? I have tried 3 different antennas with no luck of pulling in my local ABC digital signal which is on VHF (channel 8.1). I've tried a phillips, radio shack, and zenith silver sensor and not one would pull in this station. I'm thinking about trying a antennas direct DB4, that is if you guys think this will pull in the signal. If not, I won't even bother ordering it. All of the towers are within 13 miles from where I live. What do you guys think? Should I give the DB4 a shot, or is there any other recommendations? Thanks in advance!

I am finally getting to HDTV with a new SA LAR5668 coming soon. Currently running CRT TV's. I have one antenna (combined UHF/VHF) coax coming in. I will still have a least 1 VHF/UHF CRT set with the 5668. Can I get one antenna that will be good for all broadcast types and shared on one coax to both TV's?

I am about 50 miles from my local station antennas and about 80-100 miles from SF stations, which I get today but sometimes drop out and are certainly not reference quality compared to the locals.

How would the RS 15-2154 work? Any others that come to mind?

BTW my antenna is mounted in the attic its pointed out a gable with a window. I am at 1000' and the antennas are about 2000 feet ASL and are unobstructed. Biggest problem is that a few of the distant antennas arc is too big to pull in everything at once so maybe I will also have to invest in a motor unit to swing it.

UMCanes5: Antennaweb says that KTUL-DT (virtual CH8.1) is actually on UHF channel 10.

Earlier I posted a link to Kerry Cozad's actual on-air antenna measurements:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/3476.html?1118216319
You can see that the typical RCA (loop+rabbit ears), Zenith Silver Sensor and Terk HDTVi
all had about the same 0 dBd gain (same as a simple dipole) for UHF channel 10.
None of these have a particulary good antenna pattern to suppress multipath,
such as is claimed by the new Terk HDTVIp (aka Winegard SS3000) discussed above.

The NEC simulations found at www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
show the CM4221 (a 4-bay similiar to DB-4) with a gain of only -10 dBd.
So the 4-bay probably has much less gain at VHF.....which shouldn't be problem at only 13 miles away.
The 4-bay provides significant reduction of multipath due to the improved antenna pattern.
Click on each antenna name to see antenna patterns.

Since you are only 13 miles away, you probably have a multipath problem, rather than a signal strength problem.
So the HDTVIp might be worth a try, if there is enough indoor signal attenuation to avoid overloading it's built in preamp.

You still might want to try the inexpensive DB-4, CM4221 or Winegard PR4400 4-Bay (the latter is less "visual" indoors).
Unfortunately there is no information available re VHF antenna patterns for these antennas to assess performance against multipath.

Only the CM4228 8-bay antenna provided ample gain in the upper VHF band.

Has anyone tried the pf7 picture frame antenna from Antennas Direct? I'm curious how well this works. It seems like a great idea, unless I have to have it facing the wall or sitting sideways in order to get reception. Any comments?

Ross

I've seen pictures of a Zenith/Gemini/Philips Silver Sensor mounted from the ceiling. They're relatively small and could be hung with 2 or 3 pieces of fishing line or other string. The tabletop stand can be removed. The silver sensor can be painted to match the ceiling color.

If all your stations are UHF, relatively strong power and roughly in the same direction, this would probably work. All bets are off though, if your house/building exterior has metal siding or foil-backed wall or ceiling insulation or foil radiant barrier roof decking.

in case anyone else wondered about this, i tried this and it works great! mounted the silver sensor on the 2nd floor ceiling and I get all the channels in Indy! you guys are great!

UMCanes5 - The Antennas Direct XG91 will recieve high VHF channels (7-13) quite well. I have found that it will even get low VHF channels, although not as well.

I recently bought the HDTIVO from Directv and OTA is working well. It's interesting that a silver sensor in the atic is working better for me than the roof mounted winegard the directv installer put up. With the silver sensor I have no problems receiving all the major networks which I think share the same tower about 18 miles SE of me. With the winegard I get what apparently is some multipath interference which causes FOX to occassionally drop.

The only station I don't get which would be nice is PBS which is on a tower 24 miles due west of me. I can get it if I rotate the silver sensor, but then obviously I don't get the ones that are south east.

I have 2 questions.

1) I thought VHF channels are 2-13 and UHF are 14-83. But, my OTA PBS station is channel 4.1 and CBS is channel 5.1 and I get them using a UHF antenna. I know their frequencies are listed as 59 and 53 respectivly. So, are channels and frequencies sometimes used interchangeably?

2) If I got a new antenna, say a CM 4228, can I use some kind of joiner, like the CM JOIN-TENNA and point the 4228 at the SE tower and the silver sensor at W tower and get everything? Or, is there something else I can use besides a rotor? If a rotor is the only answer I can just skip getting PBSHD.

Thanks in advance,
Doug

1) I thought VHF channels are 2-13 and UHF are 14-83. But, my OTA PBS station is channel 4.1 and CBS is channel 5.1 and I get them using a UHF antenna. I know their frequencies are listed as 59 and 53 respectivly. So, are channels and frequencies sometimes used interchangeably?

2) If I got a new antenna, say a CM 4228, can I use some kind of joiner, like the CM JOIN-TENNA and point the 4228 at the SE tower and the silver sensor at W tower and get everything? Or, is there something else I can use besides a rotor? If a rotor is the only answer I can just skip getting PBSHD.


1) Digital broadcasters include a "virtual" channel number that is identical to their analog assignment. So if you knew a particular channel as "Channel 5" in all the ads, their digital channel will show up in your receiver as "5-1" or "5.1" even though it is actually broadcasting on a completely different channel.

2) Yes, a Jointenna should work. Keep in mind you must get one tuned for the one channel that is in the "wrong" direction. The Jointenna isn't perfect - it has some bleed two channels below and two above, so if you have a couple of stations close to each other (say, 33 and 35) a Jointenna may not work for you.

2) Yes, a Jointenna should work. Keep in mind you must get one tuned for the one channel that is in the "wrong" direction. The Jointenna isn't perfect - it has some bleed two channels below and two above, so if you have a couple of stations close to each other (say, 33 and 35) a Jointenna may not work for you.

Thanks for the education. PBS is on 59 and WB is on 57. So, it's probably not worth the expense for me to try.

Thanks for the education. PBS is on 59 and WB is on 57. So, it's probably not worth the expense for me to try.

Radio Shack makes a remote-controlled A/B switch that you could use, as well...

i would like to avoid as much cost as possible, so if all of my HD stations will be within a few degrees of each other, do i need a rotator? or is it better to be safe and put one up there anyway?

i would like to avoid as much cost as possible, so if all of my HD stations will be within a few degrees of each other, do i need a rotator? or is it better to be safe and put one up there anyway?

A few degress, but how many miles? If they are a reasonable distance away you shouldn't need a rotator (cost and extra complexity/hassle). Try without and see what happens.

peter
p.s. I use two antennas facing opposite directions to get 4 transmitting locations (2 per antenna) and they are a few degrees apart, with no problem. The distances are 30 miles and 10 miles.

Thanks for the education. PBS is on 59 and WB is on 57. So, it's probably not worth the expense for me to try.

You can also use a cheap $3.95 cable splitter/combiner and see what happens. I use one on my 2 antenna setup, with a 6db atennuator (from Radio Shack where you can also buy the variable one) on the CM4228 signal and a straight connection from my Radio Shack antenna to the splitter. Works great for me.. but as usual YMMV (your mileage may vary)

peter

i would like to avoid as much cost as possible, so if all of my HD stations will be within a few degrees of each other, do i need a rotator? or is it better to be safe and put one up there anyway?

Depending on your distance and the gain of your antenna, you shouldn't have any problems with just one antenna. Even the most directional antennas cover a 5-degree range out to 50 miles or so. The 4-bay bowties cover a 60 degree range very well, but if multipath is a problem, it may not be directional enough.

i am looking at getting a 91XG from anntenas direct and pointing towards shreveport since that has the most digital stations. according to antenna web, the variance of degrees is around 2-4 degrees and i am looking at around 50 miles out. and this will only be for one tv if that makes any difference.

I am in McAllen, TX and planning to get 4 digital OTA channels. Info from antennaweb suggests that I am 25 miles from the tower and compass orientation ranging from 89 - 97. Three are UHF and one (ABC) is VHF with freq 13. No major obstruction in the path. to towers. After reading through these forums I am thinking of getting CM 4228. Will this be a good choice in my situation??? Are there other low cost - less hassel (indoor type) antennas that will work for me???

I am in McAllen, TX and planning to get 4 digital OTA channels. Info from antennaweb suggests that I am 25 miles from the tower and compass orientation ranging from 89 - 97. Three are UHF and one (ABC) is VHF with freq 13. No major obstruction in the path. to towers. After reading through these forums I am thinking of getting CM 4228. Will this be a good choice in my situation??? Are there other low cost - less hassel (indoor type) antennas that will work for me???

A CM 4221 outdoors should be fine. If you wanted to go in the attic, you might need the CM 4228. You could try an indoor antenna such as the RS amplified loop/rabbit ear model but I think you're pushing it at 25 miles.

What about using the RS 15-624? FWIH its the best indoor one and guess what it's now back in stock.

i am looking at getting a 91XG from anntenas direct and pointing towards shreveport since that has the most digital stations. according to antenna web, the variance of degrees is around 2-4 degrees and i am looking at around 50 miles out. and this will only be for one tv if that makes any difference.

At 50 miles, my 91XG has about a 10 degree coverage angle. Only at 75 miles do I see a significant difference at 2-4 degrees.

hey guys, i live close to russellville, al (blue dot in attachment). I was wondering what kind of antenna i would need to receive the station shown (a cross on the attachment), or if that is even possible. Thanks for your help.

Is it possible? Yes. Likely? No. You are well outside their predicted range, and it looks like you may have mountains blocking you as well.

Does this mean you shouldn't try? Can't say. If you want to give it a shot, just to see if it can be done, you'll need about the best rig you can afford. An AntennasDirect 91XG is my personal choice for long-distance reception. Couple that to a Channel Master 7777 preamplifier. Mount it as high as you can go. Then hope.

You should also check with the station to make sure they're even on the air, as the FCC has them listed as having construction permits only, meaning the FCC has no records of them actually broadcasting digitally at this time.

Actually, WTJP does have an STA, but it's at very low power - 8.2 kW. However, the FCC info indicates the station applied for a full license in May which, when granted, would increase its power to 150 kW, still not much.

I'm in a situation where I have several strong locals that I receive off a side lobe (null at 30 degrees) on a CM4228, and the long distance sites (about 60-85 miles) that come in with drop-outs with the CM4228 aimed directly at them.

I'm looking at a pre-amp (originally the CM775) but have ordered the Winegard AP-4700 because it has some overload protection and slightly less gain (about 17 dB vs 26 dB).

1. Has anybody used the AP-4700?

2. What is the effect of overload?

The noise figures of the 2 pre-amps are not that different. My cable run is exactly 50' of RG-6.

Do you think the 160" Long Dual Boom, 57 Element Antenna from RadioShack would do any good? It's on the radioshack website (i'd paste the url but its disabled right now)

The 160" antenna from Radio Shack is a VHF/UHF combo antenna. They never perform as well as the UHF-only antennas do. Most of that length is "wasted" on VHF elements - which doesn't do you any good for a UHF station. Add to that the problems the Radio Shacks have with durability, and you'd be better off buying the 91XG. AntennasDirect has an excellent return policy.

I'm in a situation where I have several strong locals that I receive off a side lobe (null at 30 degrees) on a CM4228, and the long distance sites (about 60-85 miles) that come in with drop-outs with the CM4228 aimed directly at them.

A preamplifier may or may not help you - and it may cause problems with those strong locals.

Overload causes your signal strength to drop. It can render a signal completely useless for digital reception.

Those range claims are theorectical for line of sight transmission. They don't include niggling real world details such as the earth being spherical.

Those range claims are theorectical for line of sight transmission. They don't include niggling real world details such as the earth being spherical. How could antenna dealers get away with such deception? Many products that I can think of have to carry "real world" ratings and we do have an FTC in the Fed. Govt. that I'm sure Radio Shack has no interest in being investigated by.

So I'm convinced that 100 miles and more is solidly achievable in many cases. It was for me even with a 75 mile RS antenna and even more so now with a 4228. Count me as one beyond a doubt skeptic of the 60 mile CW limit which I believe is often a disservice to new seekers of digital fringe reception.

Sure many products have "real world" ratings. Many don't. The Radio Shack outdoor antenna line used to be named after the mileage rating. I have a VU-160 myself. It sure won't do 160mi. Thier biggest now used to be called a VU-190 but they used to make a 210. I have a 6 channel amp that claims 110W per channel. It's power consumption sticker says its uses 430W. Inputting 430W and outputting 600W is a pretty good trick too. How about diet pills? The FTC doesn't have the staff or funding to handle every case of false advertising.

How could antenna dealers get away with such deception? Many products that I can think of have to carry "real world" ratings and we do have an FTC in the Fed. Govt. that I'm sure Radio Shack has no interest in being investigated by.

So I'm convinced that 100 miles and more is solidly achievable in many cases.

How do they get away with it? Because nobody really understands UHF signal propogation. But there's no denying that the 100-mile example won't hold up under normal conditions.

Now, I could take a bowtie (single, no reflector) from Radio Shack and place it 100 miles from Mount Wilson, California at a location with line-of-sight, and I'd get a dandy signal with it. But most cities aren't served by antennas located nearly 1000 meters above the average terrain.

The only numbers that really mean anything for comparing antennas is gain and front-to-back ratio. And on those numbers, the Radio Shack lineup is far inferior to many other brands.

I've got what I think is a fairly extreme setup - AntennasDirect 91XG mounted on a 54' tower with a 28db preamplifier, RG-11 cabling to a single outlet, and I can't get reliable reception from 75 miles away for UHF signals. That isn't to say that there aren't people in my city that can, but they're up on hills far taller than my tower. And the 91XG is the best antenna I've found so far, out of five different antennas. So either I should believe Bill Johnson when he says that 100 miles is possible, rip down my 16.7db gain, 28db F/B antenna and my 54' tower and replace it with a Radio Shack model on my roof (or even better, in my attic), or I should take their 100 mile "boast" and throw it in the garbage heap.

I'd say do the latter. :)

I've got what I think is a fairly extreme setup - AntennasDirect 91XG mounted on a 54' tower with a 28db preamplifier, RG-11 cabling to a single outlet, and I can't get reliable reception from 75 miles away for UHF signals. That isn't to say that there aren't people in my city that can, but they're up on hills far taller than my tower. And the 91XG is the best antenna I've found so far, out of five different antennas. So either I should believe Bill Johnson when he says that 100 miles is possible, rip down my 16.7db gain, 28db F/B antenna and my 54' tower and replace it with a Radio Shack model on my roof (or even better, in my attic), or I should take their 100 mile "boast" and throw it in the garbage heap.

My experience: take Radio Shack's reception distance number, in miles, on any of their antennas, and divide it by 2. Assuming relatively flat terrain, that is
much more realistic. And if you really want long range reception, I'd only
consider two antennas: the ChannelMaster 4228, which I have, and the
AntennasDirect XG-91. If your distant stations are all between channels 14-32,
grab the XG. If they're mostly higher than that, grab the 4228.

Sregener: If you don't have a red flashing beacon at the top of your tower to keep airplanes from crashing into it, it ain't extreme. :D

A preamplifier may or may not help you - and it may cause problems with those strong locals.

Overload causes your signal strength to drop. It can render a signal completely useless for digital reception.

If you try an amplifier, make sure you can return it. I would say try it with an attenuator from Radio Shack. You can adjust the gain as necessary if
you are overloading.

And if you really want long range reception, I'd only
consider two antennas: the ChannelMaster 4228, which I have, and the
AntennasDirect XG-91. If your distant stations are all between channels 14-32,
grab the XG. If they're mostly higher than that, grab the 4228.:D

I probably wouldn't narrow it down quite *that* much.

If you try an amplifier, make sure you can return it. I would say try it with an attenuator from Radio Shack. You can adjust the gain as necessary if
you are overloading.:D

This will only prevent amplifier overload if you use the attenuator at the antenna before the input of the preamp. If you attenuate before the receiver, it can help with receiver overload (much less common) and also can help attenuate multipath in some situations.

I'm in a situation where I have several strong locals that I receive off a side lobe (null at 30 degrees) on a CM4228, and the long distance sites (about 60-85 miles) that come in with drop-outs with the CM4228 aimed directly at them.

I'm looking at a pre-amp (originally the CM775) but have ordered the Winegard AP-4700 because it has some overload protection and slightly less gain (about 17 dB vs 26 dB).

1. Has anybody used the AP-4700?

2. What is the effect of overload?

The noise figures of the 2 pre-amps are not that different. My cable run is exactly 50' of RG-6.

It depends on how close those locals are. The lower gain model is a better choice I'd say though with the relatively short run of cable. You could also try the CM 3041 model at Lowe's (returnable, 300 ohm input obviates need for balun).

Overload can cause drop outs or complete loss of digital signals (as was said). You can also see distortion even earlier in the analogs.

Sregener: If you don't have a red flashing beacon at the top of your tower to keep airplanes from crashing into it, it ain't extreme. :D

I'm sure the FAA would deny my permit request, as would the city I live in. As it is, I'm right on a major traffic pattern for aircraft, which caused all manner of problems with my less directional antennas. But most people won't spend $1000 for "free" TV.

So either I should believe Bill Johnson when he says that 100 miles is possible, rip down my 16.7db gain, 28db F/B antenna and my 54' tower and replace it with a Radio Shack model on my roof (or even better, in my attic), or I should take their 100 mile "boast" and throw it in the garbage heap.I tend to agree with sebenste that 54 ft. may not be that extreme ;) especially when my single story house goes up nearly 25 ft. at the top and a 3-story one could easily go 40 ft. or more. But wouldn't it be something if reg indeed followed my hackneyed mantra everybody makes fun of, and tried an attic 4228 unamped single straight shot and got outstanding reception. None of us would blame him if he kept such a result to himself and in our fraternity we would be truly happy for him! True HD addicts crave OTA success for everybody!

Which reminds me: Despite CW, could RG-11 cabling conceivably be too much volume-wise on a long run and, notwithstanding the preamp, somehow help to spread out and degrade, rather than concentrating, the signals? Just a thought from a non-expert.

P.S. One final thought, we all make fun of RS, but, their return policy no questions asked, make them good starting points for digital newcomers.

But wouldn't it be something if reg indeed followed my hackneyed mantra everybody makes fun of, and tried an attic 4228 unamped single straight shot and got outstanding reception. None of us would blame him if he kept such a result to himself and in our fraternity we would be truly happy for him! True HD addicts crave OTA success for everybody!

Which reminds me: Despite CW, could RG-11 cabling conceivably be too much volume-wise on a long run and, notwithstanding the preamp, somehow help to spread out and degrade, rather than concentrating, the signals? Just a thought from a non-expert.

P.S. One final thought, we all make fun of RS, but, their return policy no questions asked, make them good starting points for digital newcomers.

I have a paypal account, if you want to pay for the shipping and return shipping on this useless exercise. PM me if you're interested. I have the time and energy to stick an antenna up there, but I'm not going to waste $20 just to prove you wrong. If you're right, I'll give you double the money you put up for shipping.

The signals are so weak - at roof level, outdoors - that they aren't going to magically appear once I put an antenna behind shingles and plywood. If you want to see how "bad" my analog reception is, check this out: http://www.geocities.com/figbert/8vsb.html I can assure you that neither KSTC or WHLA were coming in with a color picture from my rooftop, with any antenna I tried.

Wires conduct electrical charges. The thicker the wire, the better the conduction. That's why you use heavier gauges over longer distances. Otherwise, the power company is wasting billions on those thick, heavy cables. Tests of line loss have demonstrated that RG-11 is superior to RG-6, not inferior to it. Any EE will verify why this would be so.

I agree that Radio Shack's return policy makes them a good starting point for people who are just playing around. My first antenna at this location was the Radio Shack U120 - based on recommendations on this forum from people who said it worked great. (Note: Radio Shack claims it has a 120 mile range.) The problems with Radio Shack antennas relate primarily to advertising and durability. They just don't perform as well as the Shack claims (note, they never claim to give right answers to your questions, just 'You've got questions, we've got answers') and they break down in the elements rather quickly. Some have reported broken elements after a crow sat on it. Others have reported rapid rust deterioration. If it's going in your attic, RS's products are fine, probably a hair below Channel Master and Winegard products of similar design and length. A good rule is to take their mileage numbers and divide by 2. That's been pretty close to accurate, in my experience.

I, too, want people to have success. I have a number of "notches" on my belt from people in this and other forums who have followed my advice and gotten excellent results. CW has served them and me very well. The ones who chose not to follow my advice usually come back shaking their heads and saying they made a mistake. Of course, every now and then someone like yourself is going to get lucky and get a signal when CW says you shouldn't. The problem is that you then believe your experience is typical, and start spouting it all over the Internet how easy this is and how the "experts" don't really know anything. Then people follow your advice, try things that are highly unlikely to work, and either get frustrated with the money they've wasted or buy cable and say "OTA just plain doesn't work." Personally, I'd rather people do things with the best chance of success the first time (within reason) rather than do experiment after experiment, which gets expensive in time, money, or both. Sure, anybody can try an antenna in their attic, but the odds are stacked against them. It just doesn't mean the house always wins.

i too can ring in the radioshack models,since,i have tried all from the VU-90 to the VU-190!
at no point was i able to pull in our local channel 46 on analog,and antenna web says that i should ( rough distance 20 miles ) local channel 26,30 and 20 were extremely bad and they're listed between 16.9 and 18.5 miles away. i experimented with and without pre/power amp. i have since put up an old winegard UHF only antenna and using the radioshack 30db pre and power amp.

with this setup,i can receive channel 29 ( fox west palm beach, channel 4 cbs ( miami ) channel 5 nbc west palm beach,channel 42 pbs wpb and quite a few more and i am between 99 and 149 miles from these stations. granted 4,5, and 42 are not viewable at all times,but 29 and 29.1 ( the tube ) are stable almost 24 hours a day. none of the rs models can compare to this probably 15 to 20 year old winegard

i stand down from my soap box now :o)

with this setup,i can receive channel 29 ( fox west palm beach, channel 4 cbs ( miami ) channel 5 nbc west palm beach,channel 42 pbs wpb and quite a few more and i am between 99 and 149 miles from these stations. granted 4,5, and 42 are not viewable at all times,but 29 and 29.1 ( the tube ) are stable almost 24 hours a day. none of the rs models can compare to this probably 15 to 20 year old winegard

Florida has a lot of water ducting, as well as some of the most active troposheric ducting on the planet. Plus, the state is pretty flat. All this adds up to some of the best long-distance reception in the world.

...with this setup,i can receive channel 29 ( fox west palm beach, channel 4 cbs ( miami ) channel 5 nbc west palm beach,channel 42 pbs wpb and quite a few more and i am between 99 and 149 miles from these stations.OK, CW 60 mile limit people, explain pack5's phenomenal reception. S. Florida is flat as a board and elevation surely can't be in play as it may be somewhat with my 125 mile 24/7 digital reception. And geographically speaking, over water doesn't seem to be a factor either unless there's some bouncing off Lake Okeechobee. :D :D

This reinforces my advice: Initially ignore CW and see what you can get!

daMan has reg and me tripping all over ourselves concerning his reception. Tropo and water ducting is too variable to be giving daMan such reception.

i forgot to mention that my antenna is only about 25ft in the air and it's not on a tower just a channel master channel scoping mast ( total height 30ft ). i had it to 30 ft 1 time so far and didn't have the guy wires yet and the wind we had bent the mast,so, i had to lower it back and will re extend it after we get some good enough weather for me to do so and add the guy wires. my exact location is lehigh acres,fl. ( lee county ) which is 99 miles from wpb and 149 miles from miami

I have two antennas, a UHF and VHF, pointed in different directions. Both are 300ohm feed so I have a cheap balun on each and a VHF/UHF passive combiner. I'm getting a fair amount of signal loss through the baluns and combiner.

I was wondering if a preamp such as the Channel Master 0264 with separate UHF and VHF 300 ohm inputs would be a good idea here. The preamp just has two baluns, a combiner then the amp I don't see how it would help all that much. If it has two preamps, one on each input then the combiner I think it would be a big help. Any body have any idea whats inside these? Any other preamp that would do what I want?

Thanks,

John S.

Hello,
We ordered and are are anxiously waiting for a new 50" plasma, speakers and new components. I did some research on the forum when shopping for the plasma and speakers ... so my husband sent me back to ask you guys about an antenna ;)

We currently have Dish network and my husband just called them and upgraded our PVRs. We are west of Boston/ Rt.95/128, I guess 10-15 miles from Needham ( I believe that is were the signals originate?). Live in an area of single family homes, no known obstacles in area. Peak of attic is at 35-40 ft off the ground.

What would you recommend for an attic antenna? Will an attic antenna be enough? Any other information would be great. Thanks

(I posted this on the Boston OTA area but was just ignored :confused: )

How about a Zip Code so we can look at antennaweb and see what DTV you can potentially receive? Based on that, I'm sure someone here can make an attic antenna recommendation.

Hey guys I ordered an antenna off of eBay and I guess according to the reviews it works good but it's made cheaply and I don't want to put it up on the roof in fear of it dying in the winter due to icing. I am thinking about putting it in the attic instead. How much will this detract from the signal strength?

Attic Loss, including on-air measurements by Bob Chase, was discussed in 30Mar2005 post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5410432
Using same antenna in different attic locations, the loss was between 10-15 dB, except
for some measurements as high as 25 dB.
In earlier 28Mar2005 post, he provided outdoor vs indoor measurements for six antennas:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5399471
And here's his 24Sep2005 (outdoor only) comparison of eight antennas:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6245872

Fol. report by Gary Sgrignoli summarizes many U.S. on-air test results, which
includes measurement of the difference between outdoor vs indoor signal strengths:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F30%2 F17220%2F00793638.pdf&authDecision=-203
Median Indoor Loss (half are more, half are less) is generally in the range of 10-15 dB.

I have also seen measurements made in other countries (e.g. Brazil),which are consistent
with the above numbers. But since I have not (yet) visited those countries I don't know
how to relate their measurements to typical house construction techniques.

So in my calculations I assume 13 dB +/- 7 dB for attic or indoor attenuation.
Of course if you have a good shot out a window, the value should be lower.
On the other hand, if you have aluminum foil insulation, foil thermal wrap or
stucco wire mesh walls the loss value will be higher. And worst case is metal roof.

These actual signal strength numbers do NOT include the additional degradation
that will be experienced due to multipath reflections from nearby objects. This
could cause several more dB of performance degradation and is highly dependent
on how well your ATSC receiver handles various multipath conditions, esp. short
delay multipath that is roughly the same strength as the primary signal. The
early ATSC receivers had a particulary difficult time handling this common condition.

Hello,
We ordered and are are anxiously waiting for a new 50" plasma, speakers and new components. I did some research on the forum when shopping for the plasma and speakers ... so my husband sent me back to ask you guys about an antenna ;)

We currently have Dish network and my husband just called them and upgraded our PVRs. We are west of Boston/ Rt.95/128, I guess 10-15 miles from Needham ( I believe that is were the signals originate?). Live in an area of single family homes, no known obstacles in area. Peak of attic is at 35-40 ft off the ground.

What would you recommend for an attic antenna? Will an attic antenna be enough? Any other information would be great. Thanks

(I posted this on the Boston OTA area but was just ignored :confused: )

All the Boston digitals are UHF. Assuming you don't need the analogs, a CM 4221 in the attic would be my first choice. You shouldn't need a preamp.

I'm trying to find an indoor antenna that works for me. I live 3 miles away from the towers in washington, dc and a little over 30 miles from the towers in baltimore. I'm on the 10th floor of a 17 story building and am next to another building about the same size which is in the same direction of the washington dc towers.

Now, I tried the Terk HDTVi antenna and when I aim it towards the DC towers I can't pick up the stations eventhough I'm only 3 miles away, however it picks up the Balitmore stations which are over 30 miles away. Is there something about being too close or are the buildings blocking my reception. What's strange is when the antenna is aimed towards dc it picks up the baltimore stations.

So next I tried the Jensen amplified TV920 antenna, and basically didn't pick anything up.

For now I'm sticking with the Terk antenna, but want to know if anyone would have an indoor antenna suggestion which would help me get the stations which are just down the road from me.

Thanks.

I live 3 miles away from the towers in washington, dc and a little over 30 miles from the towers in baltimore. I'm on the 10th floor of a 17 story building and am next to another building about the same size which is in the same direction of the washington dc towers.

That other building is blocking your local signals, meaning you'll have to catch a reflection from somewhere else if you're going to get anything at all. You also will likely have multipath. You could try a variable attenuator from Radio Shack, but I doubt it will make a difference. Count yourself lucky to get the Baltimore stations and enjoy watching HD from there.

Anything with an amplifier is a bad idea in your situation.

I'm trying to find an indoor antenna that works for me. I live 3 miles away from the towers in washington, dc and a little over 30 miles from the towers in baltimore. I'm on the 10th floor of a 17 story building and am next to another building about the same size which is in the same direction of the washington dc towers.

Does your building have a master antenna system for reception of 4, 5, 7, 9, 20 and 26 in addition to cable TV? If they do, send me a PM and I will add them to my mailing list for adding HDTV to their master antenna system. I've done several large buildings in Arlington. Some get Baltimore in addition to DC but some don't.

Does your building have a master antenna system for reception of 4, 5, 7, 9, 20 and 26 in addition to cable TV? If they do, send me a PM and I will add them to my mailing list for adding HDTV to their master antenna system. I've done several large buildings in Arlington. Some get Baltimore in addition to DC but some don't.

I don't believe so. I know they have a setup with Star Power and Comcast. You can always send them a letter, 8200 Wisconsin Ave, Bethesda, MD 20814 or call them at 301-654-8200.

hi everyone,

i have a quick and probably naive question about OTA HDTV antennas and cable tv. my new tv will arrive this friday. in anticipation, i just bought a zenith silver sensor antenna. my cable provider does not broadcast in HD, and i cannot get satellite due to building restrictions. so my plan was to watch standard def cable, and use the indoor antenna for local HD broadcasts. my new tv has a built in HD tuner. do i need to physically switch the incoming coaxial cable between the OTA antenna and my cable, each time i want to switch between broadcasts? or will the antenna/HD tuner be able to switch? if i need to switch manually, are there any other indoor antennas that does that automatically?

thanks for any info

-c

pup73: What brand & model number HDTV? You should download manual from manufacturer's website.

Most HDTV's have two (or more) inputs: one for on-air antenna and another for cable.

Have a friend that is trying to find the Silver Sensor locally, but all he finds is the Terk version.

Is this model Terk any good or is it still c***?

thanks for the reply...

its a samsung 6168. i have downloaded the owners manual...i'll check it out .

thanks

-c

OK, I tried searching for Indoor Antennas and I see the Zenith Silver Sensor is the general consensus for UHF reception but is their a VHF/UHF equivalent or do you need a rooftop antenna for low band VHF reception?

I hope this is the right thread...

Having issues receiving HD through Dish Network. They way the dish is setup now we have a 3LNB dish and are getting Sats A&C @ 86% Can't get Sat B. Move the dish a bit and we can get SAT B but not A&C. Is there a bigger dish we can get to make this work? According to the crappy tech support we have to be able to get all 3 sats....is that true. After many calls to dish I made sure they actually had the HD channels on our account (first thing I could think of is that it wasn't authroized on our card) I really don't see how its possible to get all three sats to hit the dish without a bigger one.

Location is Anderson Island Wa.

Thanks in advance and any help ois greatly appreciated!

Have seen, on these forums, that the Silver Sensor is far better.

I'm new to HDTV (just got my plasma TV) and wonder if someone can help with a few questions.

I bought a CM 4221 antenna and am ready to install it in my attic. I live about 20 miles from the TV transmitter. It seems RG6 cable comes in 25, 50 and 100 ft. lengths. I need about 30 ft in one spot, or 60 ft. if I mount it in another area. I'll have to drill some holes and drop through my walls, but before I do . . .

Questions:

1. Assuming I have a "pretty good" signal to start with, will the cable length (going to 50 or 100 ft.) make a significant difference in signal strength?

2. Should I try and optimize by cutting cable to 30 (or 60) ft?

3. Should I automatically use a preamp with the longer lengths, or not bother until I hook it up and see what I get on TV?

4. I assume RG 6 is the right cable thickness. As far as quality goes, is there a specific quality cable I should be buying (an extra 10 bucks or so doesn't matter), or is RG6 all I need to know?

Thanks.

Questions:

1. Assuming I have a "pretty good" signal to start with, will the cable length (going to 50 or 100 ft.) make a significant difference in signal strength?

2. Should I try and optimize by cutting cable to 30 (or 60) ft?

3. Should I automatically use a preamp with the longer lengths, or not bother until I hook it up and see what I get on TV?

4. I assume RG 6 is the right cable thickness. As far as quality goes, is there a specific quality cable I should be buying (an extra 10 bucks or so doesn't matter), or is RG6 all I need to know?

Thanks.

1. There will be a slight difference between 50 or 100 ft. Try to keep to the smallest length possible.

2. Is the cable pre-made with connectors? If yes, then try to get a proper length. If no connectors, then make as long as you need.

3. Don't try a pre-amp unless you need it. At 20 mi., I doub't if you need one.

4. RG-6 is the right cable.

1. Assuming I have a "pretty good" signal to start with, will the cable length (going to 50 or 100 ft.) make a significant difference in signal strength?

2. Should I try and optimize by cutting cable to 30 (or 60) ft?

3. Should I automatically use a preamp with the longer lengths, or not bother until I hook it up and see what I get on TV?

4. I assume RG 6 is the right cable thickness. As far as quality goes, is there a specific quality cable I should be buying (an extra 10 bucks or so doesn't matter), or is RG6 all I need to know?


1. At 20 miles, you should be fine, even at 100'. Loss is only around 6db over that length on channel 51, and you should have a lot more that that.

2. Optimize if you're putting on your own ends. Otherwise, don't sweat it.

3. No preamp should be used at 20 miles, unless you're physically blocked.

4. Look for quad-shielded RG-6 if you want some extra protection, but regular RG-6 should be fine.

cpcat & holl_ands

Before I had to go out of town (late June) we were having a discussion about antenna combining. My minimum loss pads were destroyed on the trip or I would have some preliminary data as to why I 'dissed' hoizontal stacking with a power combiner.

I'm breaking in a new Trilithic rep (what's a minimum loss pad?) or they would have been waiting for me when I got back. After they get here I will run a sweep of some cheap splitters in split/combine mode and pass them on. If 'the force' is with me, some combined antennas too.

Bob Chase
KHWB

PS Please keep up the excellent work you two do guiding the innocent to the light...

I can't seem to get any HD channels when I do the scan in my Voom box. I am in 92630. Strange thing is this is a UHF only antenna and when I plug it in directly to my TV, I get VHF channels perfectly, no UHF channels. Any ideas?

antennaweb.org says you should receive numerous UHF stations (i.e. light-green).

Since UHF doesn't work for either your "new" VOOM OTA receiver or the TV,
perhaps the antenna/coax system has a bad connection somewhere.....

And since VHF is so strong and tends to leak into everything,
it could be coming in good despite whether the coax is good or bad.

Not to overlook the obvious, the smaller end of the U-75R should point towards compass heading 318 degrees,
which is about 332 degrees true north, or about 30 degrees to the LEFT of NORTH on a map.
[Hey....not everyone is an antenna expert. Someone actually admitted to pointing the other way....]

Does anyone have any info on my post?

Does anyone know what thread or maybe a diffeent website to contact?

Thanks again!

Below is my antennaweb search for zip 77665

What do I need for the Houston stations?

Thanks!

DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
blue - uhf KAZH 57 AZA BAYTOWN TX 230° 61.6 57
blue - uhf KRIV 26 FOX HOUSTON TX 252° 67.4 26
blue - vhf KBMT 12 ABC BEAUMONT TX 47° 40.2 12
blue - uhf KTBU 55 IND CONROE TX 300° 51.3 55
blue - uhf KLTJ 22 DAY GALVESTON TX 230° 61.6 22
blue - uhf KITU 34 REL BEAUMONT TX 47° 38.7 34
violet - uhf KETH 14 TBN HOUSTON TX 251° 68.2 14
violet - vhf KBTV 4 NBC PORT ARTHUR TX 44° 34.1 4
violet - vhf KPRC 2 NBC HOUSTON TX 251° 67.9 2
violet - uhf KPXB 49 PAX CONROE TX 297° 58.7 49
violet - vhf KHOU 11 CBS HOUSTON TX 251° 68.1 11
violet - uhf KFTH 67 TFA ALVIN TX 251° 67.9 67
violet - uhf KHWB 39 WB HOUSTON TX 251° 67.9 39
violet - vhf KFDM 6 CBS BEAUMONT TX 45° 33.7 6
* violet - uhf KFDM-DT 6.1 CBS BEAUMONT TX 45° 33.7 21
violet - uhf KBPX-LP 33 PAX HOUSTON TX 252° 68.4 33
violet - vhf K09VO 9 HTN BEAUMONT TX 53° 22.5 9
violet - vhf KUHT 8 PBS HOUSTON TX 252° 67.4 8
violet - uhf KNWS 51 IND KATY TX 251° 68.1 51
violet - uhf KTMD 48 TEL GALVESTON TX 240° 54.8 48
violet - vhf KTRK 13 ABC HOUSTON TX 252° 67.4 13
violet - uhf KXLN 45 UNI ROSENBERG TX 251° 68.5 45
violet - uhf KZJL 61 SAH NASHVILLE TN 251° 68.2 61
violet - uhf KTXH 20 UPN HOUSTON TX 252° 68.4 20
violet - uhf KVHP 29 FOX LAKE CHARLES LA 53° 59.2 29

Does anyone have any info on my post?

Does anyone know what thread or maybe a diffeent website to contact?

If you have a triple-LNB dish, it should be able to get all three satellites. You may not be aiming it properly - see if there's two spots where you get A&C but not B, and then go in between the two.

The non-HD satellite forum might have more help for you.

Below is my antennaweb search for zip 77665

What do I need for the Houston stations?

They only list one digital, and it's violet. But based on what I know of the Houston area and its topography, I'd guess that you can get more than that. If you also want analogs, a good VHF/UHF combo antenna like the Winegard HD7084P or Channel Master 3678 should work well. I'd avoid putting a preamplifier on the system until you've verified that you're having problems with weak signals (looks like snow on analogs) instead of multipath (looks like ghosts on analog.) If all you want is UHF channels, the AntennasDirect 43XG, 91XG, DB4 or Channel Master 4221 would all be good places to start.

On the AVS Forum official guide which is 2nd sticky to this forum it shows7 stations sending HD signals in Houston and there is 1 in Beaumont. In CEA it shows distance from me on some of them around 67 miles.

Would the DB8 multidirectional antenna fit my bill? It says 70 miles or more and covers 14-69.

Could this possibly be put in attic or would it need exterior install due to distance?

Also, would I need another antenna for channel 2, 8, 11, 13 in Houston and 6 in Beaumont?

Thanks!

Would the DB8 multidirectional antenna fit my bill? It says 70 miles or more and covers 14-69.

Could this possibly be put in attic or would it need exterior install due to distance?

Also, would I need another antenna for channel 2, 8, 11, 13 in Houston and 6 in Beaumont?

Oh, dear. 67 miles! That's pushing things - don't know what I was reading this morning. I'd say the DB8 is a good choice for that distance. And get a strong preamplifier, like the Channel Master 7777. The 91XG is a much better choice if you're trying for stations in more than one direction (say, more than 30 degrees apart) as the multi-bowties are murder on rotors. And the DB8 isn't really "multidirectional." That's a mistake on the AntennasDirect website.

Yes, you would need a VHF antenna for channels 2-6 definitely, and probably for 7-13 as well. The Winegard HD4053 would be a good choice.

mrtbg,

Here are the Houston stations you might get, if the weather is kind to you:

Station Offerings: (last update 5/6/05)
Call Sign (Network, Network HD Standard) - Analog Channel, Digital channel
Sub-channel details

KPRC (NBC, 1080i) - Analog: 2, Digital: 35
2-1 - HDTV (1080i)
2-2 - SDTV simulcast (480i) <-- Frequently shows a weather forecast with audio overlay from main channel
2-3 - Weather radar (480i)

KUHT (PBS, 1080i) - Analog: 8, Digital: 9 (VHF, 8.7kW)
8-1 - HDTV (1080i)
8-2 - SDTV simulcast (480i)

KHOU (CBS, 1080i) - Analog: 11, Digital: 31
11-1 - HDTV (1080i)
11-2 - SDTV simulcast (480i)
11-3 - Weather radar (480i)

KTRK (ABC O&O, 720p) - Analog: 13, Digital: 32
Contact: Chuck Primrose (AVS UserID: CAPHouston) - Charles.A.Primrose@abc.com
13-1 - HDTV (720p)
13-2 - News/Special Interest (480i)
13-3 - Weather radar (480i)

KETH (TBN, ???) - Analog: 14, Digital: 24
14-1 - SDTV (480i) simulcast of Trinity Broadcasting from analog channel
14-2 - SDTV (480i) The Church Channel
14-3 - SDTV (480i) JCTV
14-4 - SDTV (480i) TBN Enlace USA

KTXH (UPN, ???) - Analog: 20, Digital: 19
20-1 - HDTV (1080i)

KLTJ (Daystar, ???) - Analog: 22, Digital: 23 (Galveston) DT License: Construction Permit

KRIV (FOX O&O, 720p) - Analog: 26, Digital: 27
26-1 - HDTV (720p)

KHWB (WB O&O, 1080i) - Analog: 39, Digital: 38
Contact: Bob Chase (AVS UserID: bobchase) - bchase@tribune.com
39-1 - HDTV (1080i)
39-2 - HDTV (1080i) - Virtual channel [PSIP]

KXLN (Univision O&O, ???) - Analog: 45, Digital: 46
45-1 - SDTV (480i)

KTMD (Telemundo O&O, ???) - Analog: 47, Digital: 48
47-2 - EDTV (480p)

KPXB (PAX, ???) - Analog: 49, Digital: 5 (Low VHF, 9.5kW)
49-1 - ??? (???)
49-2 - ??? (???)
49-3 - ??? (???)
49-4 - ??? (???)

KNWS (Independent, n/a) - Analog: 51, Digital: 52

KTBU (Independent, n/a) - Analog: 55, Digital: 42
55-1 - ???? (????)

KAZH (Azteca, ???) - Analog: 57, Digital: 41
57-1 - SDTV (480i)

KZJL (Independent, n/a) - Analog: 61, Digital: 44
61-1 - SDTV (480i)

KFTH (Telefutura, ??) - Analog: 67, Digital: 36
67-1 - SDTV (480i)(???)

Usra handles the Houston thread and does a fine job. You can find the thread here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5911467#newpost
Go to page #1 to see the above list.

I say 'might get' becuse Trinity Bay will be your big picture killer, not so much the distance. Down here in flat-earth the signal goes forever over land. Changes in the water content of the air causes the beam to lift (or sink). At the optical horizon (which is where you are) when the beam lifts, it is above you, but you still get some signal. When it sinks, it plows into the earth - except for your area. When it sinks to the east, it hits Trinity Bay and reflects back up, going right over your house. It's dew-point dependent. (There are other factors but the dew-point overwhelms the rest.)

The other gotcha is that most Houston stations are optimized north and west, leaving the east side to the bay, the refineries, and the rice fields. If you lived in Anahuac, you'd have a better shot (at least one Beaumont cable system and one Port Arthur cable system has their remote head-end there.) Out in the rice paddies, folks need big antennas and tall towers to consistently get Houston.

Think in terms of a Channel Master 3671 on a rotor, with an upper thrust bearing, and just as high as you can get it. http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm

Expensive but it's the very best antenna for your location that I have actually used. (There a quite a few antennas that I have not used.) Take a drive and look around Winnie and/or Stowell and see what antennas are pointed west.

If you can wait a couple of weeks, I could take a ride over on a weekend and put a few antennas up on a 20' portable mast I have. I get some grade B contour readings of our station and you get to see if there are any pictures out there to be found in the 'ether'.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV
Director of Engineering for Houstons' WB

A couple days ago I put in a coax balun instead of the cheap $1.79 unit and my signal reception is much better now. I guess the 1.79 unit really did have a significant insertion loss. The signal is now stable all the time (it used to go in and out as airplanes went over head, which is a major pain since we're under the flight path for three airports). Everything is now great all the local stations come in rock solid all the time.

John S.

Could this possibly be put in attic or would it need exterior install due to distance?Years ago our family doctor, who has since passed away, practiced a reliable medical approach I believe is applicable to OTA reception & mrt's situation. If you went to him with an extremely painful toe, as a ridiculous hypothetical example I'm using to make a point, at the outset he wouldn't prescribe the most powerful pain deadening drug he could find in his medical arsenal . Rather, he would say take two tylenol and if it's not better by this evening, call me at home and and I'll prescribe some tylenol tablets embedded with codeine.

Sure enough that evening the toe still hurt and I picked up the tylenol/codeine tablets. By the next morning, the toe was better but still painful. A call to the doctor elicited the advice to continue the codeine, but call him by evening if no marked improvement. That evening with no further improvement he prescribed a powerful addictive pain deadening narcotic with horrendous side effects. Within hours the toe totally stopped hurting, but I was awake all night sick as a dog. The next day I knew the toe was no longer a problem, but mild nausea continued for days.

So I say to mrt, get a 4228 for $40 from Warren online, (a DB8 is $100], put it in the attic, run a straight shot QS RG 6 to the TV and see what digital stations you can pick up. By the way, is anybody on this board with options actually interested in analog (ugh :( )??

....

So I say to mrt, get a 4228 for $40 from Warren online, (a DB8 is $100], put it in the attic, run a straight shot QS RG 6 to the TV and see what digital stations you can pick up. By the way, is anybody on this board with options actually interested in analog (ugh :( )??
the person you are telling to out and get a 4228 is, for one, because he specified them in his post.

Besides the 4228 won't get the PBS Digital station he is asking for either, even if he does forego analog reception.

Then there is the little problem a 15dB attenuator in the signal path called an attic....

Bob Chase

the person you are telling to out and get a 4228 is, for one, because he specified them in his post.It seemed like mrt is kind of looking for general help rather than framing specific questions; and, if his only options are vhf analog, than of course he should go for it. But my attic 4228 pulls in Ch. 7 and 9 at a distance of 125 miles and Ch. 8 at 100 miles all analog and rock solid so he shouldn't write off a 4228 under any circumstance IMHO.

Besides the 4228 won't get the PBS Digital station he is asking for either, even if he does forego analog reception.At 8.7 kW and 70 miles, is there any antenna that would?

Then there is the little problem a 15dB attenuator in the signal path called an attic....With all due regard and not being smart alecky, I think we should always be leery of CW. My experience tells me to always advise newcomers to be skeptical of claims that attics reduce signals by 30, 60, or almost 100%. That signal, as I've posted before, just made a Herculean effort to travel a huge distance through all kinds of unimaginable clutter in the air. And why should I believe that 1/16 inch of shingles and an inch of plywood is gonna stop it pretty much dead in its tracks! Fortunately, I didn't listen to such CW even with my huge distances; and no, not all will have my success, but before one puts up a 60 ft. tower -- hey we HD addicts all are willing to go to extremes and I'm not downing necessary towers -- but before extremes are tried, I like to preach basics.

Significant indoor/attic loss (about 13 dB +/- 6 dB or more) is not just conventional wisdom.
After a "little" research, I found that it's backed up by mountains of measurements.

If you reread my post on 7/17/05, you'll see summary results for numerous on-air test programs
that included measurement of the difference between outdoor and indoor signal levels.
Plus Bob Chase's actual measurements in his attic.
Plus several other studies with literally thousands of measurements not cited here.

NIST did some in-lab measurements of attenuation of simple wood and brick "panels"
and found numbers that were much less than the actual house measurements
(uhhh....but wouldn't the signal leak around the panels???)
And a real house would have electrical wires, foil backed insulation, appliances...
http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build97/art123.html

So NTIA went out and built a "simulated" house structure, put it on a flat
bed and towed it all around Boulder, CO. The difference between the outdoor
and indoor signal levels were all over the place, depending a lot on which
way the windows were oriented. I calculated the average to be 12.7 dB.
Obviously, if it were a real, full-sized house or enclosed attic, the loss would be higher.
http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/pub/ntia-rpt/03-405/

A couple days ago I put in a coax balun instead of the cheap $1.79 unit and my signal reception is much better now. I guess the 1.79 unit really did have a significant insertion loss. The signal is now stable all the time (it used to go in and out as airplanes went over head, which is a major pain since we're under the flight path for three airports). Everything is now great all the local stations come in rock solid all the time.

John S.

I've tried this as well (compared to the CM 0089) and couldn't really tell a difference. YMMV. They're not easy to make, either.

Years ago our family doctor, who has since passed away, practiced a reliable medical approach I believe is applicable to OTA reception & mrt's situation. If you went to him with an extremely painful toe, as a ridiculous hypothetical example I'm using to make a point, at the outset he wouldn't prescribe the most powerful pain deadening drug he could find in his medical arsenal . Rather, he would say take two tylenol and if it's not better by this evening, call me at home and and I'll prescribe some tylenol tablets embedded with codeine.

Sure enough that evening the toe still hurt and I picked up the tylenol/codeine tablets. By the next morning, the toe was better but still painful. A call to the doctor elicited the advice to continue the codeine, but call him by evening if no marked improvement. That evening with no further improvement he prescribed a powerful addictive pain deadening narcotic with horrendous side effects. Within hours the toe totally stopped hurting, but I was awake all night sick as a dog. The next day I knew the toe was no longer a problem, but mild nausea continued for days.

So I say to mrt, get a 4228 for $40 from Warren online, (a DB8 is $100], put it in the attic, run a straight shot QS RG 6 to the TV and see what digital stations you can pick up. By the way, is anybody on this board with options actually interested in analog (ugh :( )??

An *actual* principle of medicine is that you don't waste time with treatments that don't work. Patients don't like it and it may even provide the condition with an opportunity to get worse (very bad medicine).

If people at fringe/deep fringe distance want to waste time in their hot attic for no good reason, let them make that decision on their own. Don't actually try to steer them in that direction. This is supposed to be a board where people can count on sound advice. For the umpteenth time, your reception is very atypical or even an aberration. You have no basis for making these recommendations.

With all due regard and not being smart alecky, I think we should always be leery of CW.

With all due regard and not being smart alecky, it might be wise to listen to a station engineer whose job it is to help people actually receive his station, and probably has more education and real-world experience than all of us amateur "experts" put together.

If I were mrtbig, I'd take Mr. Chase up on his generous offer.

With all due regard and not being smart alecky, it might be wise to listen to a station engineer whose job it is to help people actually receive his station, and probably has more education and real-world experience than all of us amateur "experts" put together.reg and others are probably speaking sound wisdom here, myself being a person that may have just "lucked out" on OTA reception. Nevertheless, concerning CW, I still remember a Charlottesville, Virginia station's chief engineer thinking no way would I get his station's digital signal even when it went from a kW or two to 1,000 kW. But I get it and it knocks my signal meter off the scale.

One final note he weakly croaks defensively, feeling under stress but still somewhat determined: We've just spent probably thousands of dollars for HDTV, so what would 40 more dollars hurt and what would a couple of more days be, to make sure we haven't prematurely & preemptively ruled out the safety of the attic with all its tremendous advantages. :) :)

I calculated the average to be 12.7 dB.

And since dB is a logarithmic scale, with every 3dB representing a doubling (or is this case halving,) about 1/16th of the signal, on average, makes it through.

The "little signal that could" story about how a little plywood and asphalt shingles aren't going to stop a signal in its tracks, while inspiring, flies in the face of real-world testing.

We've just spent probably thousands of dollars for HDTV, so what would 40 more dollars hurt and what would a couple of more days be, to make sure we haven't prematurely & preemptively ruled out the safety of the attic with all its tremendous advantages. :) :)

Most people assume that rich people aren't careful with their money. As the book, "The Millionaire Next Door" set out to show, rich people are often rich because they are the most careful with their money.

I don't think an attic offers any real safety or other advantages, beyond ease of installation.

I don't think an attic offers any real safety or other advantages, beyond ease of installation.Definitely the words of a 60 ft tower man! But here again are some attic advantages that I'm happy about (and in no particular order):

1. No wind
2. No lightning
3. No falling to the ground and breaking one's neck or leg
4. "Ease of installation"
5. No deterioration due to weather
6. Adjustments made in any weather
7. No HOA or neighbor problems
8. No wife problems
9. Shorter cable run

I don't think an attic offers any real safety or other advantages, beyond ease of installation.

From my standpoint, the attic has lots of safety and convenience advantages:

1. No danger of falling if I go into my attic rather than up on the roof.
2. No danger of getting a big mast into power lines in my attic.
3. No concern about wind damage in the attic.
4. No aesthetic issues about an antenna hidden in the attic.
5. I really can do it myself in the attic. If I go out on the roof, I'm calling a pro. What's more, if I want to change an angle or add an antenna facing another direction, I can do that.

That's why I tried an attic installation. Unfortunately, the signal loss was all too real, and so I ended up calling the pros. Even so, I left the cable in place and it recently helped me to get a signal from a different direction with a separate antenna, now integrated into my system with a Join-Tenna.

I would agree that attics can be dangerous places, and that those comfortable with working on the roof can easily do antenna installations. And yes, my wife now sees our tall mast and huge antenna as "part of the landscape." And, I understand why pro installers don't want to fiddle around with an attic installation.

But if I could get good reception from an attic antenna, I'd far prefer it. And I don't regret trying the attic first.

But here again are some attic advantages that I'm happy about (and in no particular order):

1. No wind
2. No lightning
3. No falling to the ground and breaking one's neck or leg
4. "Ease of installation"
5. No deterioration due to weather
6. Adjustments made in any weather
7. No HOA or neighbor problems
8. No wife problems
9. Shorter cable run

1. A properly installed antenna should not pose any problems until the roof itself would also fail. My improperly installed antenna on my roof survived 80mph winds that felled large trees.

2. A properly grounded antenna is less attractive to lightning than the roof, the driveway, or the idiot standing out in his front yard watching the storm clouds.

3. 4, 5. Points.

6. Who needs to adjust an outdoor antenna? Fix it and forget it. Attic antennas end up needing far more adjustments.

7. HOAs can go perform unnatural acts to themselves, with the FCC's blessing.

8. I would think most wives would prefer not to suffer dropouts during "Desperate Housewives" than have a little bit of metal showing on their house. In spite of my 54' tower, few people who visit, even those who know about it, notice it. My parents visited for an entire week and never saw it.

9. Now this one is ironic! You think a few inches of plywood and shingles won't kill a signal (real world test suggest 13dB signal loss) but a few extra feet of cable (real world test suggest 3dB/100ft) would?!? :-)

2. No danger of getting a big mast into power lines in my attic.

...I would agree that attics can be dangerous places, and that those comfortable with working on the roof can easily do antenna installations.

You should never install an antenna near power lines! Period. If you can't avoid them, don't do an install!

I'm a very nervous person with heights. I'm also not a handy person. But I managed to do an install on my roof (and tested many different antennas) without problems. I find cleaning out the gutters to be far more dangerous, as it involves leaning over the edge of the roof, while I could hug the chimney during the antenna install.

Not to belabor an issue some of us clearly have differences of opinion on, but as I was leisurely mowing my 5 acres around the house a thought occurred to me for the first time. Would there be any good effect on attic, or external roof for that matter, signal reception by the bare metal ridge vent running the length of my house nearly perpendicular to the incoming signals? And would the chimney with all its metal configurations extending only several feet from my attic antenna also serve as some type of big signal collector to enhance my long distance reception?

Knife-edge diffraction, permanent tropo ducting, bouncing signals off of and through mountain peaks & valleys, etc. etc. just don't seem to account for my reception which I think more people could somewhat duplicate if they tried.

Just a thought from a non-expert as I can clearly geographically hear the perhaps deserved snickering all the way from Bridgewater a few miles away to Corbin, KY and to SE Minn. :p :p :p

1. A properly installed antenna should not pose any problems until the roof itself would also fail. My improperly installed antenna on my roof survived 80mph winds that felled large trees.

2. A properly grounded antenna is less attractive to lightning than the roof, the driveway, or the idiot standing out in his front yard watching the storm clouds.

3. 4, 5. Points.

6. Who needs to adjust an outdoor antenna? Fix it and forget it. Attic antennas end up needing far more adjustments.

7. HOAs can go perform unnatural acts to themselves, with the FCC's blessing.

8. I would think most wives would prefer not to suffer dropouts during "Desperate Housewives" than have a little bit of metal showing on their house. In spite of my 54' tower, few people who visit, even those who know about it, notice it. My parents visited for an entire week and never saw it.

9. Now this one is ironic! You think a few inches of plywood and shingles won't kill a signal (real world test suggest 13dB signal loss) but a few extra feet of cable (real world test suggest 3dB/100ft) would?!? :-)

I just have to wade in on this one.

1. You were lucky your antenna survived that wind. Wind storms in my area rip antennas off cars at ground level. They also rip shingles, vents, and flashing off of roofs. Insurance companies won't give better than a $1K deductable here because of all the wind damage claims. If you are in an area like mine, a outdoor antenna is not a good, long-term option.

2. A properly grounded antenna is less attractive to lighting than an ungrounded antenna. As my university physics professor told the class eons ago, they don't know exactly why, but lightning favors any object that breaks an even plane. Thus, if your antenna rises more than a foot or two above a relatively flat roof, you'd better have some tall trees next to the house or your antenna is target number one. My state is in the top five for ground lightning strikes and I think is tops in fatality rate due to lightning.

3. I'm 58, well almost 59, and I don't have much problem negotiating the small hatch into my attic or walking across the trusses. But, I'm not as frisky about climbing over 20 feet into the air and moving around on a slanted roof. I do it, but my wife is much less distressed when I'm in the attic than when I'm on the roof. I've been in the facility safety business in an extremely hazardous work environment (chemical, radiological, nuclear) and I can tell you that, besides back strain, the most common lost time accidents are from falls off ladders.

4. Half an hours at most versus at least a day when including grounding, etc.

5. Weather deterioration in Colorado is a given, with UV, wind, snow loads.

6. Guys on the Denver OTA forum with outdoor antennas are always going out to confirm their antenna adjustments after every wind storm or major snow fall. Now if I lived in Hawaii...

7. My HOA is puny, but my neighbors evaluate everything everyone does in deciding if they are going to talk to one another. Right now, they don't like it that my wife has established a bird-friendly area in our yard (food, water, shelter, trees).

8. My wife is perfectly happy watching whatever E* provides. She is pleased when I point out the stellar look of "American Idol" in HD, but she wouldn't miss it that much. I had to take regular TNT off the Favorites list to get her to use the TNT-HD simulcast. She hates outdoor antennas. Something to do with being poor during her youth.

9. Actually, for me, an outdoor coax run would be shorter and would be a lot less work than what it took for me to string coax through the walls from the attic to the basement and up the the first floor family room. This isn't really an issue.

So, I say, unless you absolutely know something won't work, try the cheapest and easiest possible solution first. Rule of thumb for engineers, mechanical at least, not medical doctors. From my attic I get 7 of 8 locals available to me at ranges from 10 to 37 miles. The seventh, at 10 miles, is a real bugger that few in my area get indoors or out. OTOH, if I turn my attic antenna around, I can lock a low power DTV station 100 miles away. It all just depends on your situation.

1. You were lucky your antenna survived that wind.

2. A properly grounded antenna is less attractive to lighting than an ungrounded antenna. As my university physics professor told the class eons ago, they don't know exactly why, but lightning favors any object that breaks an even plane.

6. Guys on the Denver OTA forum with outdoor antennas are always going out to confirm their antenna adjustments after every wind storm or major snow fall.

8. She hates outdoor antennas. Something to do with being poor during her youth.

So, I say, unless you absolutely know something won't work, try the cheapest and easiest possible solution first.

1. Lucky? Not really. We get winds around here all the time, and some of them can get downright circular in nature. And while I've heard of many antennas breaking down over time, my Winegard was pretty sturdy.

2. Actually, from what we know of lightning strikes, it has to do with an electrical potential difference between the cloud and the ground. By properly grounding the antenna, it has the same electrical potential as the ground itself, and thus is no more attractive to lightning than the ground. However, houses, trees and other objects are not grounded, and are thus more attractive to lightning. Not to say you can't get a lightning strike on an antenna, just that it's far less likely than people make it out to be. (Note: This doesn't apply to transmitting antennas, which have a lot of electrical juices flowing through them normally.)

6. Most people with outdoor antennas have rotors. I strongly recommend them to anyone, even if you think you won't get anything from another area. That way, you don't have to "confirm" your aim after a wind storm.

8. I understand about the being poor thing, sort of. Cable isn't that old, though, so she might be hypersensitive about this. And today, an antenna on your roof should be the new status symbol - it shows you probably have HDTV. :-)

Hey, I'm all for trying things out. But I also think that you should try things that have a reasonable chance of success. In the case of this guy 67 miles from Houston, going against the directional bias of the transmitters, he's going to have to have some luck just to get a signal, if he does everything "right." Cutting his signal down to 1/16th its outside strength dramatically lowers his odds of success. Worse, antenna reception varies with things like the weather and he may try his attic antenna, have it work the day he tests it, and he does a permanent install, goes downstairs and enjoys his reception until the next day, when the wind shifts or the humidity drops or whatever, and suddenly he has nothing. Of course, there's no law that says you can't or shouldn't experiment. And sometimes, people get lucky. But people who ask for advice on forums like this usually aren't looking for the one-in-a-million shot; they're looking for advice on what gives them the best odds for success.

The general rules still apply, even though some exceptions exist for particular people in particular circumstances. Outside is better than inside. Higher is better than lower. Higher gain will receive more distant signals than lower gain. A larger antenna beats a smaller one of similar design. Properly aiming the antenna is better than just pointing it wherever you want. Amplification can help with weak signals, but is murder on multipath.

Would there be any good effect on attic, or external roof for that matter, signal reception by the bare metal ridge vent running the length of my house nearly perpendicular to the incoming signals? And would the chimney with all its metal configurations extending only several feet from my attic antenna also serve as some type of big signal collector to enhance my long distance reception?


The metal ridge vent can only act as a reflector as it is longer than one wavelength. It may reflect some signal back, but not any better than a normal reflector screen, such as the one on your antenna. The chimney metal is unlikely to improve your reception, unless it has precisely cut and arranged sections similar to those in a yagi antenna. It is possible that some signal is bouncing off the chimney towards your antenna, and that may increase gain slightly, but it is rather improbable.

Knife-edge diffraction is a very stable phenomena. There's no reason to think it isn't the cause of your reception. Your mountains may also be protecting you from co-channel interference, a big-time problem for long-distance reception for large parts of the country.

Two more cents:
If you read the NIST study of attenuation for common building materials, you'll find that
the attenuation went up considerably after spraying the pristine panels with water.

Wood shingle roofs will absorb a lot more water than the test panels, so expect to see
additional signal loss when it rains.
And after a snow storm when you are stuck indoors and want to watch DTV.....

Thankfully here in Southern California, neither of these is much of a problem!!!!

This is supposed to be a board where people can count on sound advice. For the umpteenth time, your reception is very atypical or even an aberration. You have no basis for making these recommendations.This is a pretty rigid rule cp is setting forth, but ideally it has merit. The only thing is with all the unknowns about OTA reception, how can anyone resolutely claim to have "sound advice." And I don't think it would be really good to have a forum rule that no posting unless you're offering "sound advice" that doesn't go against CW.

I try a method that goes against all CW and it's a total success. So I say "here's my wonderful experience and I heartily urge everyone before building a 60 ft. tower to try it. It's not dangerous, pretty cheap, pretty simple to do, doesn't antagonize anyone, and I'm ecstatic with the results." Sounds like "sound advice" to this biased person; and I can sleep well at night, confident I've helped some while not being detrimental at all to the purposes this board serves so well (see below quote by the AVS Forum about the purpose of the Local HDTV Info and Reception Thread.


This area is for the chat about the local HDTV stations. Also includes talk on antenna type and reception including HD Cable.

I try a method that goes against all CW and it's a total success. So I say "here's my wonderful experience and I heartily urge everyone before building a 60 ft. tower to try it.

I agree with you, within reason. The problem I have with the way you usually present it is that you say something like, "Here's what I did, and I think it will work for a lot of people, and these other guys don't know what they're talking about."

When I called the professionals, they told me I needed a tower. I didn't listen and they refused to install the antenna on my roof, saying, "You won't be happy." I also didn't want to shell out the bucks for a tower. So I bought a Radio Shack U120 for $20, a mast for $10, a few cables for $20, put it up on my roof and got almost nothing. A few months later, I resigned myself to analog and bought a Winegard HD7084P and a 28db preamp for about $250. I got a little more, but after 18 months of that, I'd had enough and put up the tower. Only when I followed the advice of the pros did I get the results I wanted, within reason. I still don't get everything I want, but at least now I can rest happy that I've done everything I could. Still, I wasted $400 (counting other antennas that didn't work out) and 18 months with bad reception because I didn't want to spend $1000.

I would advise anyone who is thinking about a major expense like a tower to be sure that's what they need. Get a good antenna. Walk around on your roof with it looking for hot spots. Try the attic if you want. You might get lucky and save hundreds of dollars. But don't think you can always beat the pros - there's a reason why they're professionals. And if a station engineer talks, LISTEN. Only when you know the odds are against you should you try an attic install - but be prepared to go outside if it doesn't pan out. If you start with flase hopes that the attic is going to work and it doesn't, what then?

2. Actually, from what we know of lightning strikes, it has to do with an electrical potential difference between the cloud and the ground. By properly grounding the antenna, it has the same electrical potential as the ground itself, and thus is no more attractive to lightning than the ground. However, houses, trees and other objects are not grounded, and are thus more attractive to lightning. Not to say you can't get a lightning strike on an antenna, just that it's far less likely than people make it out to be. (Note: This doesn't apply to transmitting antennas, which have a lot of electrical juices flowing through them normally.)


I disagree. Lightning takes the path of least resistance. It is possible for a high water content tree to be next to a rooftop antenna not connected to anything (electrically floating antenna). The tree will be more attractive to lightning, because the water in the tree is conductive, unlike the dry wood used in home construction. The problem arises once you connect the antenna to a receiver and reduce the antenna’s resistance to ground. The a grounding line does not reduce an antennas chance of getting hit by lightning (does not raise the resistance), but rather makes the strike safer. The grounding line provides a path for the current to travel more attractive than through your home.

CEB II,

On July 11, you started a new thread to the HDTV Hardware forum regarding your ability to lock KMGH, the one channel you can't get indoors, by temporarily mounting an antenna outside on your chimney. In that thread, it was quite clear, at least to me (since I posted to it), that the sole reason for not mounting an outside antenna was spousal disapproval. You never once mentioned the various reasons you have posted on this thread that you perceive as negatives to outdoor antennas. I'm not saying some of your points are not valid (other than I have a $500 deductible on my house insurance - Liberty Mutual) but it makes me wonder why you didn't mention any of these negatives on the thread you started. And since you didn't, you received feedback from others regarding sending your spouse to a spa in return for the outside mount, etc. So my question is do you really feel very strongly against outside antenna mounts or is it really a spousal issue? I'd also be interested in the low power channel you receive (apparently from the north) from 100 miles away. The only DT station I'm aware of north of us is KGWN. It's barely 100 miles away from me and I live 25 miles south of you, I do receive it, and it's hardly low power at 95.5 ERP even though it's still on an STA.

Definitely the words of a 60 ft tower man! But here again are some attic advantages that I'm happy about (and in no particular order):

1. No wind
2. No lightning
3. No falling to the ground and breaking one's neck or leg
4. "Ease of installation"
5. No deterioration due to weather
6. Adjustments made in any weather
7. No HOA or neighbor problems
8. No wife problems
9. Shorter cable run

I'd take issue with both 3 and 4. I've personally seen people who've fallen through the rafters in their attic (don't worry, I'll admit to seeing falls from roofs as well). It's typically poorly lighted, cramped, hot, potential for wasps, etc, i.e. no picnic. Many have never even seen the inside of their own attic. I'll take a good ladder, firm footing on a dry roof, and a cool breeze any day. Of course, I *do* have a particular disdain for insects that fly and sting as well.

By the way I can add another one to your list for the *vast* majority of people at greater than 40-50 miles out:

10. No signal :)

Hi,
Does anybody in a apartment in Willimantic Connecticut have a indoor Antenna that can pick up all the HD Channels in Connecticut,Boston and Providence? If so what kind of indoor Antenna do you use? This is what antennaweb said the map is below.

DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
violet - uhf WVIT 30 NBC NEW BRITAIN CT 284° 31.8 30
violet - uhf WWLP 22 NBC SPRINGFIELD MA 331° 36.2 22
violet - vhf WPRI 12 CBS PROVIDENCE RI 90° 49.5 12
violet - uhf WPXQ 69 PAX PROVIDENCE RI 137° 26.7 69
violet - vhf WLNE 6 ABC NEW BEDFORD MA 112° 53.6 6
violet - uhf WTIC 61 FOX HARTFORD CT 284° 31.8 61
violet - uhf WHPX 26 PAX NEW LONDON CT 192° 19.9 26
violet - uhf WGGB 40 ABC SPRINGFIELD MA 344° 43.2 40
violet - uhf WUVN 18 UNI HARTFORD CT 294° 30.5 18
violet - uhf WEDH 24 PBS HARTFORD CT 293° 30.7 24
violet - uhf WEDN 53 PBS NORWICH CT 183° 13.0 53
violet - vhf WJAR 10 NBC PROVIDENCE RI 91° 49.1 10
violet - vhf WFSB 3 CBS HARTFORD CT 294° 30.8

CEB II,
On July 11, you started a new thread to the HDTV Hardware forum regarding your ability to lock KMGH, the one channel you can't get indoors, by temporarily mounting an antenna outside on your chimney. In that thread, it was quite clear, at least to me (since I posted to it), that the sole reason for not mounting an outside antenna was spousal disapproval.

That is correct, that is my personal situation.

You never once mentioned the various reasons you have posted on this thread that you perceive as negatives to outdoor antennas. I'm not saying some of your points are not valid (other than I have a $500 deductible on my house insurance - Liberty Mutual) but it makes me wonder why you didn't mention any of these negatives on the thread you started.

Just because I preceive them as negatives doesn't mean that I'm not willing to risk them to get what I want, if it is the only option. That is why, I've been toiling in the attic for a year and a half to see if I can achieve my objectives. Working from the attic I've managed to lock all of the channels everyone else north of I-70 gets and get good analog reception for the various NTSC tuners available in my hardware. I've been frustrated by not getting one channel that is generally regarded as not available in my area. Before investing any more time and money in trying, I went outside to see if that channel could be locked under the most optimal conditions. I found out it could. I'm not sure I can ever lock it from in the attic, but because the wife says no to the roof antenna, I'm going to try.

I offered the defense of Bill Johnson's points because he is correct. If I can get channel 17 from the attic, I'll never think about an outside antenna again because the issues Bill raised are correct.

I live in Arvada. After a particularly nasty storm in the mid-'90s, where over half of my sub-division got a new roof from their insurance company, the minimum deductibles were raised. I'm w/ USAA and have been since 1967. If one of the top rated insurers won't give their long-term customers under a $1K deductible, I don't think many others will for my area. I just paid $1K out of my pocket this spring to replace 50 feet of cedar fence knocked down during the late December wind storm.

So my question is do you really feel very strongly against outside antenna mounts or is it really a spousal issue?

I'd prefer to not have to deal with an outside antenna, but I will if that is what it takes to get what I want. However, the wife doesn't value channel 17 HDTV as highly as I do (maybe not at all) and says no way.

I'd also be interested in the low power channel you receive (apparently from the north) from 100 miles away. The only DT station I'm aware of north of us is KGWN. It's barely 100 miles away from me and I live 25 miles south of you, I do receive it, and it's hardly low power at 95.5 ERP even though it's still on an STA.

Okay, so it is only 88.59 miles away according to w.2150.com, and yes it is channel 30 KGWN. I get a steady 49, no lock, on it through the back screen pickup of a Yagi corner reflector pointed SW. During one of my experiments last year, I mounted a Winegard PR-9018 w/ pre-amp in my attic facing north. Couldn't get much else that way, but locked channel 30. Don't care about channel 30 and combining the signal caused a lot of new problems, so I took it down.

95.5 ERP may not be low power compared to our puny downtown broadcasters, but it is far less than our, not at full power, local channels 32 (223 kw) and 34 (450 kw), and no where near the full power license for KGWN at 630 kw. So, I don't think my previous post was deceptive or highly inaccurate as you seem to be implying.

MGT & I are going to hook up in a week or so after some replacement test equipment arrives. (I busted my minimum loss pads up in Phili a couple of weeks back.) If he is as much a a gentlemen, as I think he is, I'll get a chance to fly the 3671, 4228, 91x, and the 7120. It's summer in Houston, I don't think I'll have to the energy to get the rest of the fleet up the mast.

By the way, sane Texans don't go into the attic until 'winter' anyway. (We only have two seasons - damn hot & damn cold.) So even if he has an attic, we won't be trying it out. This winter I have a few more attics scheduled for testing. As always, I will share the data no matter which way the dB crumbles.

Bob Chase

At 8.7 kW and 70 miles, is there any antenna that would?

.

I have a PBS that has an official STA of 5kw (the station told me via email they're actually only about 1kw) that I can get fairly consistently at 65 miles. My antenna can take a little credit I suppose but the most important factor is that the transmitter is up around 4000ft ASL. Power can help but transmitter height and line of sight is probably more important.

By the way I can add another one to your list for the *vast* majority of people at greater than 40-50 miles out:

10. No signalNow this is the way it should be! Even in strongly arguing some point, cp brings humor into the mix and makes us all laugh! After all, this is only television we're talking about and when it comes to our faith, family, friends, and failings (or successes) in life, TV doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

The problem I have with the way you usually present it is that you say something like, "Here's what I did, and I think it will work for a lot of people, and these other guys don't know what they're talking about."Putting down forum members is certainly not my intention and, going over past posts, I think I've at least tried not to. However, there may be kind of a dogmatic way in my posting language and I feel bad they're perceived as putting anyone down.

Unfortunately, perception is reality and I guarantee HENCEFORTH no one will be able to fairly level a putting down forum members charge against me. :o :o

I just have to wade in on this one.



So, I say, unless you absolutely know something won't work, try the cheapest and easiest possible solution first. Rule of thumb for engineers, mechanical at least, not medical doctors. From my attic I get 7 of 8 locals available to me at ranges from 10 to 37 miles. The seventh, at 10 miles, is a real bugger that few in my area get indoors or out. OTOH, if I turn my attic antenna around, I can lock a low power DTV station 100 miles away. It all just depends on your situation.

Mrtbig is 67 miles out. That's what we're talking about here. No one is saying don't try the attic if you're relatively close in (as you are). For Mrtbig it's a waste of time and effort and telling him to "just try it, it works for me" is just bad advice plain and simple.

It is possible for a high water content tree to be next to a rooftop antenna not connected to anything (electrically floating antenna). The tree will be more attractive to lightning, because the water in the tree is conductive, unlike the dry wood used in home construction. The problem arises once you connect the antenna to a receiver and reduce the antenna’s resistance to ground. The a grounding line does not reduce an antennas chance of getting hit by lightning (does not raise the resistance), but rather makes the strike safer. The grounding line provides a path for the current to travel more attractive than through your home.

This has been dealt with ad nauseum in other forums. Antennas are not a single metal component, but two - the active element and the directors/reflectors. Most people ground the coax and ignore mast/inactive elements. As wind passes by metal objects, static electricity forms on the metal. Enough of that charge, and suddenly, you're attracting lightning! That's the principle behind lightning rods, which have pretty much been discredited as not helping with lightning strikes.

Anyone who has had a lightning strike even *near* their home will tell you that grounding to protect the equipment in your home in the event of a strike is a useless gesture - everything electrical in your home will be fried, grounded or not.

I have a PBS that has an official STA of 5kw (the station told me via email they're actually only about 1kw) that I can get fairly consistently at 65 miles. My antenna can take a little credit I suppose but the most important factor is that the transmitter is up around 4000ft ASL. Power can help but transmitter height and line of sight is probably more important.

Perhaps missed in all this is that the 8.7kw ERP station is hi-VHF, which is dramatically more effective than 8.7kw ERP in UHF.

Perhaps missed in all this is that the 8.7kw ERP station is hi-VHF, which is dramatically more effective than 8.7kw ERP in UHF.

Yep. Missed that entirely.

Mine is channel 41 BTW. I have another PBS at 65 miles (ch. 17, 100kw) but I'm blocked by Jellico MTN to the south and I've yet to get stable reception even with the Band A's.

Of course, the fact that I can tune the Soap Channnel (cable 68, roughly the same freq as uhf 17) when my antenna is pointing toward the cable amp on the utility pole on my street may have something to do with that as well. :(

Outdoor/Rooftop is best.

There is no 'equivalent' to the SvS for VHF. Plain old 'rabbit ears' work for VHF.

OTOH... refer to the post above.

Mrtbig is 67 miles out. That's what we're talking about here. No one is saying don't try the attic if you're relatively close in (as you are). For Mrtbig it's a waste of time and effort and telling him to "just try it, it works for me" is just bad advice plain and simple.

The world would be more backward place and with far fewer rags to riches stories if everyone who was told someone wouldn't work that actually hadn't be tried, simply threw in the towel.

I agree with the earlier post that there are some basic principles for antennas that generally will improve the probability of success (e.g., higher rather than lower, outdoors rather than indoors, more metal in the air versus less, narrow beamwidth versus wide, etc.). But, until someone has actually put a large, pre-amp'd antenna in Mrtbig's attic and found out what is receivable and what isn't, no one can say he won't receive a given channel in his area.

Yes, his probability of doing so is raised by going outside. But, maybe for the multitude of reasons cited, he doesn't really want his antenna outside. Why tell him it won't work when you don't know if it will. BTW the 37 mile distance channel I get is only 7 kw, in the upper half of the UHF band (46), with no LOS, and with only a medium size, wide beamwidth antenna. It happens!

Finally, the only reason I posted was my irritation at the all-out, personal assault on Bill Johnson for making what I believe to be reasonable suggestions. As a result the pack came after me with the equal vigor. There obviously isn't any room in this thread for anything but dogma, so this will be my last post in this thread. I'm sure that will make some very happy.

But, until someone has actually put a large, pre-amp'd antenna in Mrtbig's attic and found out what is receivable and what isn't, no one can say he won't receive a given channel in his area.

Why tell him it won't work when you don't know if it will.

Finally, the only reason I posted was my irritation at the all-out, personal assault on Bill Johnson for making what I believe to be reasonable suggestions. As a result the pack came after me with the equal vigor. There obviously isn't any room in this thread for anything but dogma, so this will be my last post in this thread. I'm sure that will make some very happy.

You are absolutely right that no one can tell him for sure what he will or won't get. But we can say what the odds are, and frankly, they're not good for a multitude of reasons. Having a station engineer in his market rate his chances of success as low with an outdoor antenna makes it even more likely that an attic antenna is not a good idea for him. The problem I've had since the beginning is those who present the odds as better than they are for attic antennas, or those who think that it's worth trying every half-baked idea before doing what common sense, conventional wisdom, sound physics, and expert advice all agree is the thing to do.

I can't find anything that was an all-out assault on you in the thread. I never intended to attack you personally, or treat your advice as worthless. I, for one, will miss your input if you choose to leave this thread, even if I don't always agree with it. From a multitude of counselors, wisdom comes.

The world would be more backward place and with far fewer rags to riches stories if everyone who was told someone wouldn't work that actually hadn't be tried, simply threw in the towel.

I agree with the earlier post that there are some basic principles for antennas that generally will improve the probability of success (e.g., higher rather than lower, outdoors rather than indoors, more metal in the air versus less, narrow beamwidth versus wide, etc.). But, until someone has actually put a large, pre-amp'd antenna in Mrtbig's attic and found out what is receivable and what isn't, no one can say he won't receive a given channel in his area.

Yes, his probability of doing so is raised by going outside. But, maybe for the multitude of reasons cited, he doesn't really want his antenna outside. Why tell him it won't work when you don't know if it will. BTW the 37 mile distance channel I get is only 7 kw, in the upper half of the UHF band (46), with no LOS, and with only a medium size, wide beamwidth antenna. It happens!

Finally, the only reason I posted was my irritation at the all-out, personal assault on Bill Johnson for making what I believe to be reasonable suggestions. As a result the pack came after me with the equal vigor. There obviously isn't any room in this thread for anything but dogma, so this will be my last post in this thread. I'm sure that will make some very happy.

I think there are probably two mindsets at work here. There's the person who wants advice on how to get something done with the least fuss possible and then there's the person who obviously needs it to work but also enjoys the quest and the hobbyist side of it. Most who ask for advice for the first time are of the former group and many who give the advice (like maybe you and me) are of the latter.

Conventional wisdom has to be the most beneficial advice for the former although certainly speculative experimentation must be allowed it's place(and is even part of the fun for many in the latter group).

As wind passes by metal objects, static electricity forms on the metal. Enough of that charge, and suddenly, you're attracting lightning!

In many Yagi antennas, there is no easy way to ground the director elements because the are connected to the boom with an isolator. Are you saying that type of Yagi is especially dangerous? If so, why don’t all antenna manufacturers connect the director elements to the boom with a conductor?

Finally, the only reason I posted was my irritation at the all-out, personal assault on Bill Johnson for making what I believe to be reasonable suggestions. As a result the pack came after me with the equal vigor. There obviously isn't any room in this thread for anything but dogma, so this will be my last post in this thread. I'm sure that will make some very happy.I'm thankful for CEB's show of support (bless you) and with that I too will officially sign out with my last post in this thread.

I have a basic question now that I am interested in using an antenna in my HT. I recently bought a LG 4200A, it seems to be a nice unit. I want to play with antenna placement and I see that people are talking about signal strength. What sort of device measures signal strength? Is it something that sits between the antenna & the tuner's antenna input? Is this something that can be picked up at Radio Shack?

Also, I live in an area between 2 metropolitan areas - can I mount two different antennas to the same mast & have a combiner of some sort to share the same cable coming into the house?

Thanks!
Bets

I have a basic question now that I am interested in using an antenna in my HT. I recently bought a LG 4200A, it seems to be a nice unit. I want to play with antenna placement and I see that people are talking about signal strength. What sort of device measures signal strength? Is it something that sits between the antenna & the tuner's antenna input? Is this something that can be picked up at Radio Shack?

Also, I live in an area between 2 metropolitan areas - can I mount two different antennas to the same mast & have a combiner of some sort to share the same cable coming into the house?

Thanks!
Bets

Signal strength is measured through the receiver. Some have a meter that quantifies it to a number while others (like your LG) will just have a meter which indicates "weak, medium, strong" or something to that effect.

It's sounds like your best option will be a rotator for access to both markets. The other option would be to run two separate downleads into an indoor A/B switch.

Combining like you refer to is prone to creating signal killing multipath unless you diplex the two antennas. If one is vhf and the other is uhf that's easy to diplex, but if you're talking multiple channels on both vhf and uhf in both directions it's very difficult/expensive or even impossible.

Signal strength is measured through the receiver. Some have a meter that quantifies it to a number while others (like your LG) will just have a meter which indicates "weak, medium, strong" or something to that effect.

It's sounds like your best option will be a rotator for access to both markets. The other option would be to run two separate downleads into an indoor A/B switch.

Combining like you refer to is prone to creating signal killing multipath unless you diplex the two antennas. If one is vhf and the other is uhf that's easy to diplex, but if you're talking multiple channels on both vhf and uhf in both directions it's very difficult/expensive or even impossible.

On my LG Plasma, the signal strength indicator appears really to be a signal quality indicator -- BAD -- NORMAL -- GOOD. When it hits the BAD/NORMAL boundary, it drops to zero. I believe the signal really doesn't drop to zero but drops down to a level where the quality isn't good for decoding. I sort of proved this by adding a Winegard AP-4700 pre-amp which boosted the levels a few percentage points and reduced the signal quality dropping to zero on some channels. This pre-amp is excellent for overload protection, since my external CM4228 picks up both locals (in the order of 10-12 miles) and and distant channels (60 to 90 miles).

Although there may be at least one HDTV/STB that actually provides a signal strength display,
for the most part what is displayed is NOT signal strength, but a percentage measurement based on the detected MPEG2 data error rate.

Hence you could have a very strong signal with lots of multipath that has a very low % display and vice versa.

Hey gang,

I'm 60 miles west of Chicago, and one thing I have noticed is that I saw the
dreaded drop of signal from my attic antenna in early May from the leaves
growing on all of the trees. Some roughly 100' north of where my townhouse is.

Having said that...since then the reception has slowly gotten better...to the point
where it used to be in winter! Now, the drop in reception was about 10%, or
more accurately, the MPEG2 error rate on my Zenith DVR420 went up by that
amount. Since then, gradually, over the last two months, it has come back to my
winter signal levels, pretty much.

I put forth the theory that while leaves do absorb rf...I would argue that it may be
more of a function of the *water/sap content* in the leaves that does it.
Today, we had wind speeds here over 20 MPH. In May, the signal levels would
be going up and down, as one would expect from trees being nearby. Now,
that effect is barely noticeable...and it WAS unexpectedly breezy here, with
100 degree temps and southwest winds with gusts to 30 MPH!

Based on these observations, I want to throw this out to the engineers on the
list, and the advanced members who have either seen it or know about it.

What do you think?

I put forth the theory that while leaves do absorb rf...I would argue that it may be more of a function of the *water/sap content* in the leaves that does it.

Based on these observations, I want to throw this out to the engineers on the
list, and the advanced members who have either seen it or know about it.


Water content in the leaves definitely makes a difference. And if your weather has been anything like it has been here in Minnesota lately, your leaves would be very dry.

For background, I live pretty close to the major towers, about 5 miles. We are surrounded by many trees, however there are no major structural obstacles between us and the towers. Originally, we had rabbit ears for our TV, reception was alright, but some stations were a bit snowy. After reading some comments here, we bought a Silver Sensor & that made a bit of difference. The SS was mounted on top of our TV.

Over the last year, I've been building a HT in our basement, it became functional a month ago. The room has a projector, since I wanted to receive HD OTA, I bought a LG 4200A tuner. I also wired the house so I could take an antenna signal and distribute it anywhere in the house. I then tried the following (over a month):

1. I put the SS in the basement - the 4200 only picked up a few stations, and those poorly.

2. I then moved the SS to the attic and positioned it (based on the antennaweb orientation information). The reception improved significantly, although things were far from perfect. I'd get drop-outs on occasion & sometimes a channel couldn't be tuned.

3. I purchased a 4-bay antenna (antennasdirect.com DB4) and mounted that in the attic. I played some with placement, but probably could have spent more time (however it is an oven up there). Anyhow, my reception improved somewhat, although dropouts were still present. Doing an auto scan with the 4200 produced 20 stations.

4. We have an old antenna on our house, I had tried it earlier without good results. I went up on the roof recently and found the problem was the cable was poorly connected. I replaced some cabling (using the old, directional antenna) and hooked it into my system. The results were on par with the 4 bay, 20 stations & a few drop outs.

5. Lastly, I took my 4 bay from the attic and attached it to my existing antenna mast. It was a simple process, it sits slightly below the existing antenna. Here things improved pretty significantly. When I scan now, I pick up 6 new stations and so far the majors are better, no drop outs. Having the additional stations aren't the big deal, I'm just assuming that all signals are stronger - at least that's what I'm experiencing.

I haven't done anything else to the signal, it isn't amplified, etc. So in my experience, in my situation, outside placement made a big difference. When I say big, maybe less that a 20% improvement, but when it comes to a digital signal, it made big difference in my case.

Of course, YMMV - if I were to move, I'd try the same thing over again as I know of people to are satisfied with their attic install.

Bob

Of course, YMMV - if I were to move, I'd try the same thing over again as I know of people to are satisfied with their attic install.

Basically, you're confirming what we've been saying - an outdoor install gives you the best chance for success. Not that it can't work indoors or in an attic, just that it is less likely. You're only 5 miles from your targets, so your problem was probably attic-induced multipath. An amplifier is practically guaranteed to ruin what good reception you get - inddors or out.

Hey gang,

I'm 60 miles west of Chicago, and one thing I have noticed is that I saw the
dreaded drop of signal from my attic antenna in early May from the leaves
growing on all of the trees. Some roughly 100' north of where my townhouse is.

Having said that...since then the reception has slowly gotten better...to the point
where it used to be in winter! Now, the drop in reception was about 10%, or
more accurately, the MPEG2 error rate on my Zenith DVR420 went up by that
amount. Since then, gradually, over the last two months, it has come back to my
winter signal levels, pretty much.

I put forth the theory that while leaves do absorb rf...I would argue that it may be
more of a function of the *water/sap content* in the leaves that does it.
Today, we had wind speeds here over 20 MPH. In May, the signal levels would
be going up and down, as one would expect from trees being nearby. Now,
that effect is barely noticeable...and it WAS unexpectedly breezy here, with
100 degree temps and southwest winds with gusts to 30 MPH!

Based on these observations, I want to throw this out to the engineers on the
list, and the advanced members who have either seen it or know about it.

What do you think?
You are on the right track with your thinking but you need to factor in something else. Yes, foliage does attenuate the signal somewhat, with long needle conifers (pine , fir, etc.) being particularly harmful to UHF reception. (Doug Lung, of TV Technology fame, often kids me about the -30 dB pine trees up in the northeast Houston area.) I don't think that we would see gross variations of signal strength due to the winds blowing and causing all of the leaves to line up one moment and pass the signal, then block the signal the next.

The factor most people don't consider with TV reception is the moisture content of the air. They will think of raining vs. not raining but most people ignore the importance of humidity. Relative humidity (RH) will change as the temperature changes even when the moisture content stays the same. So Meteorologists, and engineers who study propagation, often use Dew Point (DP) as a determinate of moisture content of the air. (DP is directly proportional to vapor pressure (VP) and is much much easier to get data on and to work with.)

If we measured your dew point temperature in the winter, it would be very low compared to the air temperature. Your trees were also bare.

If we measured your dew point in the summer, the air temperature and the dew point would be very close, perhaps only a few degrees apart. In the mornings, a car left outside often has dew on the windows because the air temperature went below the dew point and condensed on the cool glass & metal. The air in the summer is often still with no breeze until late afternoon, if then.

In the spring, the north winds often fight the south winds causing large variation in the water content of the air. The north wind brings in dry air; the south wind brings moist air. There is mixing of the two winds right over your house and all the way over the to the transmitter. Pockets of air develop with high moisture content, perhaps moving through the viewing area. Meanwhile, you see the spring breezes blow the branches around.

So how does moisture content affect radio propagation? Radio waves only travel in a straight line when they are in a vacuum. Our air (the lower atmosphere) causes the radio wave to slow down and to bend by refraction. While there are many factors that cause the bending, moisture content is the biggest factor, swamping out all the other factors combined.

We refer to this as the K-factor in our calculations. K-factor is the radius of the earth for the the TV signal as opposed to the actual radius of the earth. The greater the K-factor, the 'flatter' the earth becomes allowing reception at greater and greater distances. (Bending a wave around the earth has the same affect as flattening out the earth.)

The increased K-factor allows over the horizon reception of TV signals by folks who live further than the FCC stations service area, as you often see posted here on the forum. It also causes the signal strength of a station to increase or decrease for folks who live within the stations service area. I think you may be seeing moisture moving through the viewing area.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

Thanks for the explanation, Bob - we newbies are always looking for such info.

Yes, thanks Bob. Finally an educated explanation for the observations I have made the last three years, from about 70 miles from the Memphis towers. Over the years some of the self proclaimed "experts" on this forum have called me crazy for believing that I would get better reception during the summer than in winter, even citing water content in the atmosphere as a reason summer reception should be worse. But your clear explanation of the effects of dew point on reception coincides exactly with what I have observed.

I'm sorry if these question has been asked but I didn't find any information searching this thread. Now the question....

What would be the general affect on signal reception when there is a water tower directly inline with the transmission towers? The water tower is approximately 1/4 mile away and the transmission towers are 14-15 miles from my home.

The tower looks like this one: http://www.ci.wixom.mi.us/YourCommunity/photoalbum/watertower/watertower.jpg

Thanks,

Alan

[edited to add photo link]

I'm sorry if these question has been asked but I didn't find any information searching this thread. Now the question....

What would be the general affect on signal reception when there is a water tower directly inline with the transmission towers? The water tower is approximately 1/4 mile away and the transmission towers are 14-15 miles from my home.

The tower looks like this one: http://www.ci.wixom.mi.us/YourCommunity/photoalbum/watertower/watertower.jpg

Thanks,

Alan

[edited to add photo link]

If it blocks line of sight the result could be multipath. If you're analogs are from the same towers and are ghost free you're likely o.k.

Yes, thanks Bob. Finally an educated explanation for the observations I have made the last three years, from about 70 miles from the Memphis towers. Over the years some of the self proclaimed "experts" on this forum have called me crazy for believing that I would get better reception during the summer than in winter, even citing water content in the atmosphere as a reason summer reception should be worse. But your clear explanation of the effects of dew point on reception coincides exactly with what I have observed.


The problem with summer are that things are so much more unpredictable (at least for me). This is likely due to intermittent tropospheric ducting and interference from other markets (analogs mostly). I'm hoping this will clear up after analog goes away.

If it blocks line of sight the result could be multipath. If you're analogs are from the same towers and are ghost free you're likely o.k.

Thanks for the reply. The analogs are from the same towers and they are not ghost free. The antenna that I am playing with is a Zenith Silver Sensor. I am assuming a directional antenna may be better for me.

Alan

Your Silver Sensor is highly directional - but it's basically an indoor antenna, although some have used it with success outdoors.

What you may need is a directional outdoor antenna - and more than likely, since you have ghosting on your analog channels, orient the antenna for strong reflected signals.

Gary

Thanks for the reply. The analogs are from the same towers and they are not ghost free. The antenna that I am playing with is a Zenith Silver Sensor. I am assuming a directional antenna may be better for me.

Alan

I'd agree. I'm assuming you've tried moving the silver sensor around. You could also try it in the attic. Another thing to try would be the variable attenuator from RS. This can decrease ghosting/mulitipath and you could use the analogs as a guide. The CM 4221 in your attic/outside might be the next option. Even safer would be the CM 4228 outside/ in the attic. You shouldn't need a preamp and this would typically make multipath worse, anyway.

While there are many factors that cause the bending, moisture content is the biggest factor, swamping out all the other factors combined.

Really? I'd put tropospheric ducting at the top of the list.

Here in Minnesota, we get extremes of moisture content in the air. Dewpoints in the winter have actually been below zero, and in the summer as high as 86. While generally speaking, reception in the winter is better than in the summer, nothing beats a good tropospheric event to stretch the radio horizon. I've gotten UHF signals from over 250 miles away, clear as a bell, during tropospheric events which usually seem to happen on calm, hot and humid summer evenings more than any other time of year. But kick up a little breeze and the signals, even from relatively close stations over the radio horizon, break up like ice in 100 degree heat.

If it blocks line of sight the result could be multipath. If you're analogs are from the same towers and are ghost free you're likely o.k.

The ghosts in this case will be too close together to “see”.

Alan,
The fairly large distance from the water tower will be helpful. Even better, if you were a mile from the tower. Think of it like an island in the ocean. The farther you get from the island, the less if effect the ocean waves. As you probably know you will need a bigger antenna than you would if you did not have the water tower.

I've been moving the Silver Sensor around including the attic while playing. I've known I have needed a larger one for sometime now. My biggest question is which one to start with; bay style like the CM4228 or a yagi style like the 42XG?

Thanks for all the replys,

Alan

I've been moving the Silver Sensor around including the attic while playing. I've known I have needed a larger one for sometime now. My biggest question is which one to start with; bay style like the CM4228 or a yagi style like the 42XG?

Bowtie-styles seem to work better in attics. Yagis work better outdoors.

The ghosts in this case will be too close together to “see”.



Hmmm. I guess that'd make them true "ghosts" alright. :)

I understand what you're getting at. If the reflections are arriving very close together the tuner would see them simultaneously. But that'd be a good signal wouldn't it?

Anyhow, Alan did reply that his analogs "were not ghost free".

I've been moving the Silver Sensor around including the attic while playing. I've known I have needed a larger one for sometime now. My biggest question is which one to start with; bay style like the CM4228 or a yagi style like the 42XG?

Thanks for all the replys,

Alan

The more "fair" comparison would be between the 4228 and the 91xg, and they should both be more directional and perform better for multipath than the 42xg. If you're definitely going to stay in the attic, I'd say toss a coin (or I guess you could put that coin in your pocket since the 4228 is half the price). If you think you might go outside on a rotator at some point, the 91xg is lighter and less wind load.

Hmmm. I guess that'd make them true "ghosts" alright. :)

I understand what you're getting at. If the reflections are arriving very close together the tuner would see them simultaneously. But that'd be a good signal wouldn't it?

Anyhow, Alan did reply that his analogs "were not ghost free".


If the wave bending around the right side of the water tower hits the antenna at its peak at the same time the wave bending around the left side hits the antenna at its trough, the two will cancel each other out. This is the potential problem with short distance multi-path.

My guess is the ghosts are caused by something other than the water tower. You could calculate out what the time it takes light to travel 20-30 feet translates into in inches on the TV screen. I’m feeling too lazy to do this myself.

If the wave bending around the right side of the water tower hits the antenna at its peak at the same time the wave bending around the left side hits the antenna at its trough, the two will cancel each other out. This is the potential problem with short distance multi-path.

My guess is the ghosts are caused by something other than the water tower. You could calculate out what the time it takes light to travel 20-30 feet translates into in inches on the TV screen. I’m feeling too lazy to do this myself.

The ghosts are likely caused by reflections through the back or to the sides of the antenna. This is common when line of sight is lost whether due to buildings, mountains, etc. This is why narrower beamwidth and higher front to back ratio is so important in mulitpath prone areas and why omnidirectional antennas don't work. In most cases it's still possible to receive the direct signal at an acceptable level if you can narrow the beamwidth/increase FB ratio enough. Sometimes not, however, and it's necessary to try non-intuitive aiming and try to catch a reflection which is strong enough to tune.

If the water tower is the only obstruction to LOS, then either that's the cause or the receiving antenna is just too omnidirectional to begin with. Either way, the remedy at the antenna is the same=narrower beamwidth, higher FB ratio.

Two signals in perfectly opposite phase nulls the signal. This would not produce multipath but rather attenuation of the direct signal. It's hard to imagine one signal refracting so much differently around a water tower as to alter the relative phase by 180 degrees since the signal is emanating from the same point, but I'll not argue it's possibility. More importantly, the direct signal is simply blocked (reflected elsewhere or absorbed) by the obstruction and so the tuner sees proportionately more reflected signal.

Nulling can be used to advantage if stacking antennas to cancel unwanted interference.
See http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint1.html

The ghosts are likely caused by reflections...

I think I see what you are saying the water tower is not the cause of the ghosts, but rather allows ghosts caused by something else (ie. a hill) to be seen. Because the water tower makes the more direct signal much weaker, the difference between the multiple-paths (around water tower vs bounce off hill) is not as great. This makes sense.

The only think I would like to add is if Alan was closer to the water tower, a less directional antenna might be helpful to pickup signal curving around each side simultaneously.

I agree completely with "bear". But even then, you would have to be really unlucky to have that tower directly on the line of your transmission path. If it is, it would seem to me that if you bought a 500 foot spool of RG-56 and held a test antenna 500 feet to the left or right of where your antenna is located now, you'd get much improved reception because the RF shadow of the tower is no wider than the tower, and, with the penumbra, it is even narrower than that.

Or it might be easier to do something like that with an A/C inverter and a portable test rig, if you are in an urban situation where you can't string a long coax to a distant reception antenna.

Scrounge up a copy of Satellite, Off-Air SMATV by Dr. Frank Baylin, probably published in the late 1980s (my cover and first few pages are missing, so I can't find the copyright date). On page 93, it has the formulas for determining phase cancellation distances between horizontally stacked antennas. One way that cable companies cancel the effects of interfering signals is by having two horizontally stacked antennas pointed at the main signal path, but spaced so that the reflected signal gets to one antenna exactly 180 degrees out of phase with when it reaches the other and thus, those signal components, which are visuallly equal in magnitude, cancel each other out. Unfortunately, spacing is unique for each channel, so this technique can only reliably clean up one channel with each antenna pair.

On page 195 of my edition is a useful table that lets you use the distance between the main analog image and the ghost to determine how much further the reflected signal is traveling.. Figure 9-1 there has "Ghost Displacement versus Reflection Distance" plots for different size TV screens. For example, if a ghost image is one inch to the right of the main image on a 15" diagonal TV screen, then the multipath signal has traveled about 5000 feet further than the direct one, whereas that one inch of image displacement looks like about 2,700 feet of extra travel distance on a 25" TV.

On the same page is Figure 9-4, which demonstrates that an ellipse is the locus of all points of the same distance differential between the direct path and multipath signals. You can stick pins on a map that has both the transmitting and receiving sites on it and connect them with a thread that is equal in length to the multipath distance and use that thread to guide a pencil in developing your own plot of that ellipse on the map, and then you can find something big on that ellipse and that is what your signals are bouncing off. For all the good it does you.

It did me a lot of good several years ago. I was trying to mitigate really harsh analog ghost images at a campground in College Park, Maryland, and I knew, roughly, the direction that the multipath signals were coming from, because I identified secondary antenna peaking in that direction that exceeded what a sidelobe would develop at that azimuth, but I couldn't tell how far away the reflecting object was because of the treeline. So I knew I had to move my antenna, but I needed a more informed basis to speculate where else on the property to put it. Otherwise. I'd have to walk around the property with light, 25 foot pole with a tiny UHF antenna on it and then try to make sense of my haphazard collection of prospective relocation analyses.

I drew the ellipse, using the thread and pencil, and bingo, it went right through Byrd Stadium at the University of Maryland. Armed with that knowledge, it was much easier to certify the efficacy of the new antenna location than it would have been if I hadn't known how far away the reflection was coming from. I set up two new antennas, about 500 feet closer to the transmitters, and they almost totally eliminated the ghosts. Obviously, I had a little bigger budget to work with than most of you do. The campground serves 400 sites and I did this before DirecTV made local TV available in that market.

Some of you can surely figure out how to generate such an ellipse with a computer. I can't. About forty years ago, I arrived at a fateful, erroneous conclusion that I now regret. I attended a science exposition at which a behemoth called the IBM 360 was the center of attraction. Computer technology was to be the wave of the future, and someday, we'd all be using these things. That's what they told us.

Well, I could do anything that I saw them try to programing it to do in less time than it took them to program it, using the punch cards that they did, and the only thing it could tie me at was tic-tac-toe. It couldn't even play chess.

I concluded that computers were a fad and that, rather than get in on the ground floor, I'd let them pass by, like the hula hop did, and catch the next fad. Fool on me!

Well, I didn't expect this much discussion from my original question but I've enjoyed it. To add a little more information to the equation I'm on the backside of a hill. If the cheap mapping software I have for my GPS receiver is close then the elevation of the tower is at 1036 ft. and I'm at 1029 ft. To further muddy the water, if antennaweb.org's distance and bearing are fairly accurrate then the antenna farms elevation would be around 500 ft.

Right now I'm going to get a CM 4228 and try it out.

Thanks again,

Alan

About forty years ago, I arrived at a fateful, erroneous conclusion that I now regret. I attended a science exposition at which a behemoth called the IBM 360 was the center of attraction. Computer technology was to be the wave of the future, and someday, we'd all be using these things. That's what they told us.

Well, I could do anything that I saw them try to programing it to do in less time than it took them to program it, using the punch cards that they did, and the only thing it could tie me at was tic-tac-toe. It couldn't even play chess.

I concluded that computers were a fad and that, rather than get in on the ground floor, I'd let them pass by, like the hula hop did, and catch the next fad. Fool on me!

15 years ago I took a job working with the descendant of the IBM 360. Since then, I'm glad I stayed on the mainframe. If not, I'd probably be of a job right now.

Alan

Scrounge up a copy of Satellite, Off-Air SMATV by Dr. Frank Baylin, probably published in the late 1980s (my cover and first few pages are missing, so I can't find the copyright date). On page 93, it has the formulas for determining phase cancellation distances between horizontally stacked antennas.

This info is also here: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint1.html
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint2.html

I've tried it with some success (not as much as I had hoped) to try to null an analog 34 which interferes with a digital 34 here. The problem as I remember was that the 1/2 wavelength spacing which is supposed to work best decreased the overall performance of the stack.

This info is also here: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint1.html
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint2.html

I tr(ied) to null an analog 34 which interferes with a digital 34 here. The problem as I remember was that the 1/2 wavelength spacing which is supposed to work best decreased the overall performance of the stack.

What is the angle between the towers. How far away are each?

You might try pointing an antenna at the source of the offending signal, and coupling it 180 degrees out of phase with the main antenna. It is tough to do but doable. it is often done to get rid of unwanted harmonics of FM signals that develop in the VHF high band.

Microwave Filter makes a phase shifter that you can use to continuously shift the phase up to 180 degrees, so that, coupled with a variable attenuator, would allow you to tweak until the problem is minimized. The retail price of it is about $700. I have a couple, but unfortunately, mine are VHF lowband and highband

What is the angle between the towers. How far away are each?

You might try pointing an antenna at the source of the offending signal, and coupling it 180 degrees out of phase with the main antenna. It is tough to do but doable. it is often done to get rid of unwanted harmonics of FM signals that develop in the VHF high band.

Microwave Filter makes a phase shifter that you can use to continuously shift the phase up to 180 degrees, so that, coupled with a variable attenuator, would allow you to tweak until the problem is minimized. The retail price of it is about $700. I have a couple, but unfortunately, mine are VHF lowband and highband

WBKI analog 34 Campbellsville KY bearing 303.5 at 84 miles
WTNZ DT 34 Knoxville bearing 176.1 at 65 miles
Angle between 127.4
My spacing calculation for nulling assuming ch. 34 centered at 593 mhz:
12.53 inches for .5 wavelength
37.6 inches for 1.5
62.7 for 2.5

I do have a couple of Band A antennas down right now to play with, but all of my uhf antennas have PCB baluns. Would turning one upside down flip the phase? I'd also expect this to have the potential of creating unwanted multipath for other channels unless I used a 34 jointenna or something similar on the out of phase antenna.

I'd say the 700 dollar option is pretty much out.

In many Yagi antennas, there is no easy way to ground the director elements because the are connected to the boom with an isolator. A gas filled lightning discharge unit instead of a grounding block handles the job. If there is a static buildup to the degree specified on the unit, the gas ionizes and the charge goes to ground.

A gas filled lightning discharge unit instead of a grounding block handles the job. If there is a static buildup to the degree specified on the unit, the gas ionizes and the charge goes to ground.

I was more expecting someone to respond with,
“The TOTAL charge is not very high, because of the small volume.”

Hey gang,

Just saw this now, but...

Stark Electronics, which has a good reputation among antenna buyers, put the
ChannelMaster 4228 UHF antenna on sale for $39 this week. Just caught it.
If you were thinking of getting one, grab it before the end of the week;


http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm

The funny thing is, I hate the website (WAY too long of a list), but love their
service. A good compromise. ;-) Full disclaimer: I don't know anyone from
them; they came recommended to me last year and I bought some of my
stuff for my antenna install through them, and they got me the stuff I needed
quickly. (Read; satisfied customer, nothing more!)

Edit: Well, well...price war!!!

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm

I am also a satisfied customer with them. I would be even more satisfied
if they dropped the price even lower! :-)

So I knew I had to move my antenna, but I needed a more informed basis to speculate where else on the property to put it. Otherwise. I'd have to walk around the property with light, 25 foot pole with a tiny UHF antenna on it and then try to make sense of my haphazard collection of prospective relocation analyses.Imagine walking around with a 30' pole trying to find the best location for a wind turbine. Knowing Rayleigh wind distribution helps here, but they usually have to measure (over time) chosen spots @ least about 30 feet.

...I hate the website...


I like it. I don't have time to develop a price schedule, so when I am drawing up a materials list for a big job, I just go to their site and factor some multiple of their prices.

Really? I'd put tropospheric ducting at the top of the list.

Here in Minnesota, we get extremes of moisture content in the air. Dewpoints in the winter have actually been below zero, and in the summer as high as 86. While generally speaking, reception in the winter is better than in the summer, nothing beats a good tropospheric event to stretch the radio horizon. I've gotten UHF signals from over 250 miles away, clear as a bell, during tropospheric events which usually seem to happen on calm, hot and humid summer evenings more than any other time of year. But kick up a little breeze and the signals, even from relatively close stations over the radio horizon, break up like ice in 100 degree heat.
srenger,
I was not ignoring tropoducting. The person who I responded to is 60 mi from the xmitter, probably very close to end (or just beyond) the stations Grade B coverage area. From 60ish miles out to 100 miles is an area that I call the 'deep fringe' area. (Mainly because you see that listed on antenna charts and consumers can relate to it.) In the deep fringe, the signal is typically from the station or a reflection of the station from a tall object, like a mountain. While there is no hard rule to tropoducting, it tends to be further out and more sporadic. Your 250 mile example is a classic case. It's very far and sporadic. It would be rare, but not impossible, for a signal to get all the way up to the troposphere and get back down to a receive antenna within a 60 mile radius of the transmitter.

I was explaining a completely different scenario where the signal gets better or worse with the seasons or with weather fronts within the stations normal viewing area. This is true at 30 miles out, especially with an indoor antenna.

Most people don't realize how thin a UHF television beam is. Folks see the receive antenna charts and think that the transmit antenna is similar. The transmit beam is closer in shape to a frisbee than to those charts. If it's a directional antenna, then it's a frisbee the dog chewed on. At 60 miles, a 1/4 of a degree change in beam tilt can make a huge difference in signal strength.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

I was explaining a completely different scenario where the signal gets better or worse with the seasons or with weather fronts within the stations normal viewing area. This is true at 30 miles out, especially with an indoor antenna.


Ah, understood. I'm kind of in this situation, with stations just over 75 miles distant and no line-of-sight. Winter is better than summer, but evenings in summer can still kick the pants off the best days in winter. I've been attributing it to tropospheric ducting, but I'm not an engineer and I don't play one on TV.

For instance, WCCO-DT (32) comes in nearly 24x7, 365 days a year for me. I'm shocked if I don't get it. KSTP-DT (50), supposedly on the same tower, at about the same height and power, is an elusive catch year round. The atmosphere has to be "helping" me a lot to get it, day or night, summer or winter. In the winter, on a "good" night, the signal meter will list KSTP-DT in the middle of the "Normal" range. In the summer, on a "good" night with no wind and high humidity, I've seen the signal peg high on the "Good" range on my meter. Now, KSTP's engineers insist that the problem is that KSTP drew a "bad card" with channel 50, and lower channels aren't as fussy about multipath, and they may be right. I find it ironic, though, that KSTC-DT, on channel 44 and about 1/5th the power, comes in far more regularly and reliably not just for me, but for just about everyone in their viewing area. In any event, I'm a good 15 miles from all these station's coverage patterns, so I have no business expecting them to come in, especially with my "below average grade" location.

At 60 miles, a 1/4 of a degree change in beam tilt can make a huge difference in signal strength.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

I've played around with tilt +/- 7 degrees or so and I've never been able to convince myself that it makes much of a difference. The problem is that conditions with my reception seem to vary enough constantly any time of the year that something that makes it a little worse or a little better is just really hard to confirm (or maybe there's just no significant difference at my location).

I think that a 1/4 degree difference in beam tilt might make a little difference in transmision at that distance, but I can't imagine it ever having any measurable effect on reception.

I think that a 1/4 degree difference in beam tilt might make a little difference in transmision at that distance, but I can't imagine it ever having any measurable effect on reception.

It was my understanding that he was referring to transmitter beam tilt, not receiving antenna beam tilt.

I like it. I don't have time to develop a price schedule, so when I am drawing up a materials list for a big job, I just go to their site and factor some multiple of their prices.
Mike,

Let me clarify. I do like the fact that they give all the prices, and their selection.
I just wish it were more organized, like warrenelectronics.com is. Having to slide down more than 1 page is a general design no-no in the Web world. And again, their products are great and their service to me has been great. It would make life easier to find stuff that I want if they, for example, had different sections for each category: different pages for Winegard antennas and boosters, etc.
I just want to find what I want quickly.

Gilbert

Gentlemen,

Attached is a chart of a typical UHF transmit antenna and a mid-gain log-periodic antenna. (An 8 dB yagi would have a similar pattern.) The Y-Scale is degrees from horizontal. Negative numbers are to our customers, positive numbers go out into space or, occasionally, getting into a tropoduct. :) The X-Scale is gain with 1.0 being maximum signal.

You can see why we have to tilt our beam down to 'see' you from 2000'. You can also see why tilting a consumer antenna does not usually do much good.

By the way, this is not the KHWB antenna. I built this chart by transposing data from a report to excel. It wasn't until I saw the null-fill area on the chart that I realized that it was another stations' antenna. Still, their antenna is more typical of a UHF antenna for a VHF-NTSC station than our antenna would be.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

You can see why we have to tilt our beam down to 'see' you from 2000'. You can also see why tilting a consumer antenna does not usually do much good.

Interesting picture. But it seems to assume a perfect world, and we all know the world isn't perfect. There are things that "scatter" that nice, straight, narrow beam all over the place. Most people who advocate tilters say that tilting only becomes useful when you're over the horizon. It allows you to maximize the gain of the antenna by turning it parallel to the incoming signal - since it is probably "dropping from the sky" rather than coming in nice and straight.

The people who often lose out with reception due to beam angle are those who are "right under" the antenna, say a mile or two away. They often can't get reception with a typical 8db gain antenna (or any of the larger antennas) but they can get rock solid reception from small, indoor antennas like the DB2. I don't know if they're just picking up a reflection, but I've tried to help several people who can't get a blip because they're under the tower's shadow.

Well after following these threads for 80 odd pages, I can say I'm presently confused on a much higher level than I was before I started. Which is a good thing, I guess.

I'm putting in an HD set (finally) and want an OTA antenna to go along with my DirectTV (which I'll up to HD also).

Per www.antennaweb.org, the stations in the general direction I'm aiming are:

yellow PBS TRENTON NJ 295 3.7 43
violet FOX PHILADELPHIA PA 259 35.9 42
green ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 257 36.5 64
green CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 257 36.5 26
ltgrn WB PHILADELPHIA PA 257 36.3 54
red PBS PHILADELPHIA PA 257 36.3 34
red UPN PHILADELPHIA PA 257 36.3 32
blu PAX WILMINGTON DE 257 36.3 31
violet NBC PHILADELPHIA PA 257 36.3 67
violet PBS WILMINGTON DE 257 36.4 55
violet UNI VINELAND NJ 210 38.8 66

I strictly care about all the Philly stations (and not at all about the others)

The one local guy in the Princeton area installs the Winegard 9095 and AP4800 pre-amp; if I want I can buy and he will install anything else.

The antenna will go on the roof of a two story house with a 10' mast.

If I buy the antenna and pre-amp, the installer would be happy to install my choices.

I've been looking at a DB4 or DB8 with a channelmaster 7777 pre-amp.

Can anyone provide me with a pro/con on my choice over the installers?

Cost isn't a consideration ($100 +/- either way doesn't matter here) , I just want rock solid reception without any fuss/muss or rotators.


Thanks in advance.


Andrew

I can't help with the installer question.

I don't think the preamp is needed unless you're running a really long cable or splitting it to multi-sets. I'm 43 miles from Philly, and when I tried a preamp with the CM4228 I lost WHYY.

Is PBS/Trenton up to full power? If not, then when it goes to full powr it might overload a high gain preamp.

Can you get at the amp yourself? If so, then try without the preamp first, but if you think you need one, then you should try a Winegard medium gain preamp (18dB).

Trenton is 30 degrees off your main azimuth, so at UHF frequencies, that should knock it down by a good 20dB. If you had a VHF station that close, then you'd be in trouble.

Philly will have at least two stations going back to VHF highnband, I'm sure. Don't they have a 10 and 12? You'll eventually need to accommodate those somehow, but now is probably not the time to worry about that.

I strictly care about all the Philly stations (and not at all about the others)

The one local guy in the Princeton area installs the Winegard 9095 and AP4800 pre-amp; if I want I can buy and he will install anything else.

The antenna will go on the roof of a two story house with a 10' mast.

If I buy the antenna and pre-amp, the installer would be happy to install my choices.

I've been looking at a DB4 or DB8 with a channelmaster 7777 pre-amp.


Thanks in advance.


Andrew

Hi Andrew,

I can't help with installers either, but my recommendation to you is simple.
At that range, on a 10' mast, assuming no hills between you and the towers,
you don't need a preamp; in fact, as Mike et al have pointed out, it may
overload your signals. BUT, there is one exception: check to see if your
UPN, PAX and WB stations are at full power. The "big 4" stations will be; everybody else doesn't have to be at full until July 1, 2006. Generally, PBS stations will always be at a respectable digital power, so you probably won't have to worry there. Furthermore, I recommend you get the ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay
UHF antenna. It also does a decent job of picking up channels 7-13, so when
a few stations go back to the VHF dial after analog shutdown, you probably
won't have to worry about it. The DB8 from Antennas Direct doesn't pick up VHF
channels 7-13 well at all, and the DB4 is even worse.

I am getting 5 out of 6 digital OTA channels on a dollars store 99 cent antenna v/s 4 out of 6 from 40+ dollars zenith silver sensor. I am 25 miles from broadcasting tower and out of 6 -- 4 yellow zone, 1 green zone and 1 red zone channels. Zenith SS is going back to sears....

The one local guy in the Princeton area installs the Winegard 9095 and AP4800 pre-amp; if I want I can buy and he will install anything else.

I've been looking at a DB4 or DB8 with a channelmaster 7777 pre-amp.


I, like others, would skip the preamp if you're trying for stations 35 or so miles away. All three antennas you've listed are murder on rotors - the 9095 because all the weight would go on one side - it mounts by the back end to the mast, the DB8 and DB4 because of wind load - bowties really pick up the wind when it blows just right (think wind sail.) But since you won't need a rotor at that distance, it's not really an issue.

In tests I've seen, the Channel Master 4221 and 4228 outperform the AntennasDirect models by a fair bit - especially on high VHF, where the split screen on the DB8 costs it some gain.

WHYY is reverting to channel 12. WCAU is not going to channel 10 because it would conflict with WHTM-DT in Harrisburg. WPVI and KYW are unknowns at this point because their digitals are "out of core" and their analogs are lo-VHF, so neither made a round one election.

If your installer is familiar with the 9095, I'd just go with that. It's more than enough antenna at your distance, and you shouldn't experience any problems with it. (Unless, of course, a station is running at very low power, in which case, you might have trouble with any antenna.) The exotic antennas some of us love are really only necessary for people in difficult/problematic locations, and from what I know of New Jersey topography, your situation wouldn't qualify.

I'm putting in an HD set (finally) and want an OTA antenna to go along with my DirectTV (which I'll up to HD also).



You mean "up to HD-Lite also".....DirectTV doesn't have HD anymore.

Interesting picture. ....
The people who often lose out with reception due to beam angle are those who are "right under" the antenna, say a mile or two away. They often can't get reception with a typical 8db gain antenna (or any of the larger antennas) but they can get rock solid reception from small, indoor antennas like the DB2. I don't know if they're just picking up a reflection, but I've tried to help several people who can't get a blip because they're under the tower's shadow.
sregener,

The folks close in to a site have a triple whammy coming at them. 1st, gain in that direction is extremely low because the transmitters' energy is focused at the radio horizon. So their tuner or STB is struggling just to make the required S/N (Signal to Noise ratio) to receive a signal. The theoretical limit is 15.2 dB S/N. Anything lower than that and there is no DTV tonight.

2nd, the beam falls apart. The attached PDF is from KHWB's MK-II DTV antenna. (The MK-I died an ugly death.) The beam starts falling apart at 5 deg down angle which is just over 4 miles from the tower. At 7 degrees down (2 miles out) the beam has devolved into a complete mess. (In color, you could see this better.) This phenomenon is called differential gain error because the antenna has different gain on different frequencies within the channel. Every antenna has it, some worse than others. It is hard for a DTV tuner to put this back together because there is not enough equalization available to reassemble the ATSC data. If we were looking at a spectrum analyzer the signal would have huge notches in it like the worst multi-path you ever saw.

3rd, some antennas exhibit deep notches in the signal and sometime the notches will go right down to zero. Take a look at the PDF I sent before showing atypical transmit/receive antenna pair. On the upper side of the antenna those notches exist. That antenna uses specially placed elements called "Null Fill" to make the lower side (customers side) smooth, well, smoother anyway. The amount of 'null fill' used subtracks from the antenna gain, so it is always a trade-off of how much energy to divert to get a decent signal in-close vs. the cost of doing so.

So the folks close in have a tough time getting TV. One of my employees lives right in a another stations null. He can't receive that station unless they are on their auxiliary antenna. This fall we are going to test his attic and his front yard and I'll share the data. My bet is your are quite correct in that low gain antennas will out perform the high gain ones.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

9. Now this one is ironic! You think a few inches of plywood and shingles won't kill a signal (real world test suggest 13dB signal loss) but a few extra feet of cable (real world test suggest 3dB/100ft) would?!? :-)

I was worried about this, and an extra layer of shingles on my roof might have actually helped me get better reception. I'm not sure yet. I live in the Phoenix area in Arizona, and all the TV stations here put their antennas on top of the same mountain about 11 miles from where I live. I have a Samsung 360 receiver where the OTA meter is pretty useless, and a channelmaster antenna in the attic. I was having trouble losing a couple of stations once in awhile during the last year. They wouldn't always stay locked. Usually during the week during the day. I think it was due to multipath, usually on weekdays when there is more traffic. Just a guess on my part though.

I recently added another layer of shingles on my roof since it was getting old, and I was worried it would cause worse reception. It turns out my reception has been better since adding an additional layer of shingles. It's only been a month since having my roof redone, but I haven't lost a signal yet in that time OTA. I'm wondering if the extra layer of shingles helped block out the weaker multipath signals while the main signal which is stronger still gets through giving me a stronger signal lock? Just guessing and theory on my part which could be wrong, but I hope that's the case. It would make life nicer while waiting for D*TV to get the local HDTV stations up and running in my market which isn't in the top 12. :) With my luck though it's probably just coincidence and I'll start losing that signal lock once football season starts.

So in short, if you want to stop multipath problems, try spending $4000 to have an extra layer of shingles installed and see if that helps. :p

Can't overlook the obvious. Close in to the transmitter site also can have very high signal
levels either from direct signals or backscatter from nearby buildings and/or terrain. Which can overload the HDTV's tuner.

Which would explain why a low gain indoor antenna can sometimes provide better results
than a medium gain outdoor antenna.

Anyone close to a transmitter site should try lowering the signal level by inserting a variable RF Attenuator prior to their HDTV.

Guys I seem to have a problem im about 30 miles from transmittors. I had a small antenna and i started to lose signals from 7 and 10 in miami.. I bout a medium radio shack roof top antenna and things got a bit better but still started to get all over the place readings with 7 and 10.... The thing is right about 200 yards out theres 2 huge palm trees and i have my antenna pointed right in the middle sort of like a fiel goal.. Well I tried placing my antenna real high and it seems that my best signal comes from it being real low.... Well everythign was fine and dandy but today it is a humid really humid night and channel 7 is about 18 decibals lower from normal.... Do you think a signal booster will help me with my up and down readings... I sort fo get the basketball signal readings at times...

im now using the radio shack vu 190.. there biggest antenna.. I have it 3 feet higher than the roof.. I get good readings through out but sometimes like 7 or 10 will get real low .. like for instance on a normal day i get in between 85-89 on these channels but today my channel 7 is from 70-74..... sometimes with dips into 69... Now my run is about 50-70 feet and i have it going into a direct tv multi switch in order to split it to my whole house..... Do you think a signal amp will make a diff and if so which one.. Also the guy from radio shack said that i can put the signal booster to where the cable meets the receiver and plug the power source at the wall...

Well everythign was fine and dandy but today it is a humid really humid night and channel 7 is about 18 decibals lower from normal.... Do you think a signal booster will help me with my up and down readings... I sort fo get the basketball signal readings at times...

If your signal strength is varying wildly, the problem is rarely a weak signal - usually this is a sign of multipath. And with VHF, 30 miles is nothing, so you've got more than enough antenna. I'd guess that a signal booster would either make things worse or make no change in your situation.

Two things you can try. One is to bypass the multiswitch and see if that helps at all. Try a direct line to one tuner and see if that makes a difference. Multiswitches are notorious for messing up antenna reception, and they often impact only a small range of channels. I'm not saying it can't work, but if you're trying to troubleshoot, that's something to test for. The other you can try is a variable attenuator from Radio Shack. When the signal is bouncing around, try dialing up the attenuation and see if that helps - an attenuator can knock reflected signals (i.e. multipath) below the tuner's threshold and possibly make things better.

All of this, of course, assumes that you're trying to troubleshoot a problem with your *picture*, not your meter. If the picture is rock solid and breakup-free, don't mess with it no matter what the meter says.

I was very excited when received my SS-3000 last Friday. I had high hopes for this antenna. Afterall, it's a Winegard and it's their "Newest & Best"!

Well, I was thoroughly disappointed.

Appearance
The construction of the antenna base is made of plastic. The "reflector grid" is then attached to it via 4 plastic arms. This "reflector grid" is nothing more than a thin (1/32"), flat, piece of see-thru plastic with a pasted-on grid. This whole thing is made of cheap plastic! My unit was new, but it had scratches everywhere, so it looked like a beat-up, home made antenna.

Assembly
Assembly was quite simple. You just need to fasten two screws to attach the reflector grid to the base unit. The thing is, the pre-drilled holes on the reflector grid was BIGGER than the screw head so if you screw it tight, the reflector grid would just pop off. DUH! I added a washer to each of the screws to remedy this.

Reception
When I opened the box, I found a power adaptor inside. I didn't know this unit is powered so I was pleasantly surprised. But that pleasantry didn't last very long. I disconnected my Silver Sensor and anxiously connected the SS-3000. I was sure the SS-3000 would solve all my bad reception woes. No more skipping frames (or so I hoped)!

But sadly, the SS-3000 performed no better than the Silver Sensor!! I flipped through the channels, some had solid signals, but some still showed skipped frames. I carefully adjusted the SS-3000 trying to point it to the perfect spot... but no matter how/where I pointed it, it performed no better than the Silver Sensor!

Well, that's my account of the SS-3000. Good luck to you if you decide to get one. I live near Fremont, CA (Bay Area).

Cheers,
Kevin

I carefully adjusted the SS-3000 trying to point it to the perfect spot... but no matter how/where I pointed it, it performed no better than the Silver Sensor!

Actually, that's pretty high praise for the SS-3000. I would have expected this made-for-Terk product to perform far worse than the Silver Sensor.

Kevin, I also live in Fremont, my experience here is that there is a strong multipath issue with the San Francisco stations, you get a strong direct signal from Sutro tower and a not very much weaker signal bouncing off the Hayward hills. I had to go with a fairly highly directional UHF yagi to clean it all up nicely. Except for KNTV which is in the Santa Cruz hills, I had to build a separate antenna just for them.

Everybody in my neighborhhod that is getting good solid reception is using an outdoor yagi of some sort, they don't have to be high, just pretty directional. The indoor or atic reception here is terrible, primarily because the houses are all stuco which does a very good job of blocking the signal. If you are not in a stuco house you might get away with a pretty directional antenna inside, OR a stuco house with the antenna carefully placed and oriented to make use of the stuco as part of the directional characteristics of the antenna. For example I could put a low directional antenna in the middle of the kitchen and it worked well because the kitchen window was pointed at the hayward bounce, the walls screened out the direct signal. Of course my wife didn't particularly want an antenna in the middle of the kitchen so a directional one went outside!

John S.

I tried searching for CM antenna reception maps with no luck. I saw on the Winegard web site they plot their reception for their antennas but CM does not. Does anyone know if I can find these?

Since there is 82 pages of antenna talk on here, and i do not read this topic much, i thought it is interesting that walmart now sells an amplified silver sensor now with vhf dipoles

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?dest=9999999997&product_id=3904686&sourceid=1500000000000001827170

Since there is 82 pages of antenna talk on here, and i do not read this topic much, i thought it is interesting that walmart now sells an amplified silver sensor now with vhf dipoles

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?dest=9999999997&product_id=3904686&sourceid=1500000000000001827170

Philips may be calling this a "silver sensor", but it's not.

Maybe it will work though.

OK, if not a map maybe an answer: Most of my stations come from 285 degrees and 25 miles away. I get those with no problems. There's a PBS station at 297 degrees and 37 miles that I used to receive intermittently but no longer. Also, I have another PBS station at 57 degrees that's only 5 miles away that I receive very sketchy.

I'm using an RCA-3036 antenna with a CM7777 preamp and rotor. No matter where I point the rotor I'm not getting the 37 mile PBS station. I can tune in the 5 mile station with no problems but then I lose all my main stations from the Empire State Building.

I'm thinking of adding a Channel Master UHF only antenna to the preamps UHF input and keeping the RCA for the VHF side.

My question is will the CM 4248 UHF Yagi be less directional than the 4228 bowtie? I'm hoping to aim in between the 285/297 stations and pick up the 57 degree station from the side. If I'm sort of receiving it with the RCA I figure the higher gain CM would pull it in but I'm not sure if it's TOO directional to do this.

SYLVANIA 6900DTE with DTA-5000 SMART ANTENNA:

First On-Air Test of the First EIA/CEA-909 interface in an STB and Smart Antenna
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5979741#post5979741

THE GOOD NEWS:
For the past two weeks, I compared the On-Air DTV performance of the DTA-5000 Smart Antenna
to a 4-Bay Vertical Zig-Zag for two indoor and two outdoor locations chosen primarily for WAF.

The Smart Antenna consistently brought in the more difficult channels when the 4-Bay
was suffering from varying degrees of signal dropout.
I was impressed the presumably low-gain, compact DTA-5000 outperformed a medium gain 4-Bay Antenna.

AND THE BAD NEWS:
For both the first and the replacement STB from Amazon.com, both the Optical and Coax
Dolby Digital Audio interfaces were not operating correctly. Now I need to get it fixed.

I tried this on a cable TV forum with no luck - maybe someone here can answer this as this really is also an OTA question.

I just ran cable from my HDTV up to my attic and will eventually hook up an antenna. The run was right at 75' so I opted to use a 25' cable connected via a pass through male to male connector to a 50' cable rather than run 1 100' cable. My hope is that this will have less signal loss due to the shorter length (RG6 the whole way).

My question is - what is the loss through such a connector? If it measurable? I'm assuming it to be in the 1 dB range but have no basis for this. Thanks.

I just installed a Channel Master 4221 (CM4221) UHF antenna in my attic. The antenna is split to feed two separate diplexers (diplexed from a 4X8 multiswitch) that feed to two DirecTV H10-250 TIVO HD receivers in two different rooms. The number of OTA channels that I receive with the H10-250 virtually doubled as compared to an old RadioShack VHF/UHF antenna also mounted in the attic. Most of the broadcast towers are located 140 to 145 degrees from my house except for the Washington DC PBS tower which is located at 172 degrees from my house. By aiming the CM4221 antenna at about 160 degrees I am able to get good reception of all these channels (75 to 95% as measured by the H10-250 receiver). However I would really like to receive the PBS channels broadcast from Annapolis Maryland which is 102 degrees from my house (~30% as measured by the H10-250 receiver). This PBS station has a better slection of HD and SD programs than does the Washington DC PBS station. I am not able to position the CM4221 to receive all the above channels reliably (I can get the Annapolis PBS station if I rotate the antenna to 102 degrees but then I loose the other channels). Note that I chose the CM4221 over the CM4228 because the CM 4221 is less directional than the CM4228 and I am less than 10 miles from the towers (except for the Annapolis tower which is 31 miles away).

Is it possible to stack and combine two CM4221 antennas that are pointed in two different directions (one at ~160 degrees and the other at ~102 degrees) so that I can receive all these channels? The Annapolis PBS is broadcast with a frequency assignment of 42 whereas the othe channels that I receive range between 27 to 51. I have read that if I stack them about 2 feet apart and connect the two anttenas with 12 gauge wire that I could use a standard splitter/combiner to combine them into one downlead. It is not clear to me from what I read whether this will work and what the issues might be.

Comments and suggestions?

MPT DTV is in channel 42. You can couple a dedicated channel 42 antenna into your main antenna feed using a Channel Master Jointenna. If using the channel 42 Jointenna interferes with the reception of ABC-DTV 39, then try a channel 43 Jointenna instead. I think these can be bought from Stark or maybe Warren for about $40 each.

Ignore what you have read about stacking. That information was to enable someone to develop a tuned antenna array such that both antennas are receiving intended signals from the same transmitters. That is not your application

As all of my former Potomac Maryland residential customers had houses of 10,000 square feet or larger, I will assume that member aprest lives in a very large house and may find it most cost effective to buy a channel 42 Jointenna and a channel 43 model, so that he can compare them side-by-side, to see which one works better. He also should consider using a 4228 8-bay for Annapolis WMPT-PBS 42

Thanks AntAltMike,
I am going to try both since I do get both UHF frequencies 39 and 43. I am willing to give up 43 to get 42. Can I mount the 2nd CM4221 or CM4228 on the same mast? If so, how far apart? I might have a problem with the CM4228 because the attic access opening only has a maximum 37 inch (diagonally) opening. According to the ChannelMaster homepage the CM4228 is 39.5 inches wide by 36 inches high. Do you happen to know if the 4228 screen can be easily removed from the bow ties so that I could take the screen up sideways (the 36 inch height)? I had to remove the screen from the CM4221 to straighten it out from damage in shipping and it was easy to remove by bending a few metal tabs.

Don't use the same mast. That way, it will be easier to find a "sweet spot" for each antenna.

The screen comes off the 4228 by bending the tabs that hold it on, or, more accurately, hold them on. There are two screens, so each will be about 18" wide and will pass readily through your ceiling hatch.

You won't be "giving up 43 to get 42". The Jointenna combines a primitive bandpass filter with a primitive band reject filter. The band reject filter rejects the channel you want it to, plus two or three channels above and below it, so the band reject filter in a channel 42 Jointenna might degrade channel 39 on your main antenna downlead a little more than you'd like it to.

Similarly, the bandpass path of a channel 42 Jointenna pretty cleanly passes the channel above and the one below, so if the Channel 42 jointenna mucks up 39, the channel 43 jointenna will probably pass channel 42 just fine through its single channel input, but will do less band-reject damage to 39.

I tried this on a cable TV forum with no luck - maybe someone here can answer this as this really is also an OTA question.

I just ran cable from my HDTV up to my attic and will eventually hook up an antenna. The run was right at 75' so I opted to use a 25' cable connected via a pass through male to male connector to a 50' cable rather than run 1 100' cable. My hope is that this will have less signal loss due to the shorter length (RG6 the whole way).

My question is - what is the loss through such a connector? If it measurable? I'm assuming it to be in the 1 dB range but have no basis for this. Thanks.
The connector loss is minimal provided you tighten the connectors lightly with a 7/16" wrench.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

I just installed a Channel Master 4221 (CM4221) UHF antenna in my attic. The antenna is split to feed two separate diplexers (diplexed from a 4X8 multiswitch) that feed to two DirecTV H10-250 TIVO HD receivers in two different rooms. The number of OTA channels that I receive with the H10-250 virtually doubled as compared to an old RadioShack VHF/UHF antenna also mounted in the attic. Most of the broadcast towers are located 140 to 145 degrees from my house except for the Washington DC PBS tower which is located at 172 degrees from my house. By aiming the CM4221 antenna at about 160 degrees I am able to get good reception of all these channels (75 to 95% as measured by the H10-250 receiver). However I would really like to receive the PBS channels broadcast from Annapolis Maryland which is 102 degrees from my house (~30% as measured by the H10-250 receiver). This PBS station has a better slection of HD and SD programs than does the Washington DC PBS station. I am not able to position the CM4221 to receive all the above channels reliably (I can get the Annapolis PBS station if I rotate the antenna to 102 degrees but then I loose the other channels). Note that I chose the CM4221 over the CM4228 because the CM 4221 is less directional than the CM4228 and I am less than 10 miles from the towers (except for the Annapolis tower which is 31 miles away).

Is it possible to stack and combine two CM4221 antennas that are pointed in two different directions (one at ~160 degrees and the other at ~102 degrees) so that I can receive all these channels? The Annapolis PBS is broadcast with a frequency assignment of 42 whereas the othe channels that I receive range between 27 to 51. I have read that if I stack them about 2 feet apart and connect the two anttenas with 12 gauge wire that I could use a standard splitter/combiner to combine them into one downlead. It is not clear to me from what I read whether this will work and what the issues might be.

Comments and suggestions?

Don't forget your other options (in addition to the Jointenna) are to get a rotator or run two separate downleads into an A/B switch.

He also should consider using a 4228 8-bay for Annapolis WMPT-PBS 42

Why not the 4221? After all, he says if he aims his current one in that direction, he gets great reception of WMPT-DT. Why spend the extra $$$ on a bigger antenna?

I've had "iffy" reception of WMPT in several Potomac installations. In fact, if you look at where the transmitters are, you might be surprise to learn that channel 50/51 is commonly much weaker, in absolute signal strength, than are 34, 36 and 39, even though it is only maybe two miles further away and probably on about the same reception azimuth. It is more a matter of terrain than distance, and he is putting his antenna in the attic, so for an extra few dollars he might want to maximize the Annapolis signal quality.

Why not the 4221? After all, he says if he aims his current one in that direction, he gets great reception of WMPT-DT. Why spend the extra $$$ on a bigger antenna?

I found that the reception of WMPT-DT is iffy with the 4221. Interestingly, this morning with the 4221 pointed at ~160 degrees I was receiving channel 42 until the sun came out and then I lost it. I also think that I want the higher directionality of the 4228 in addition to the better gain. For ~ $15 more why not?

I found that the reception of WMPT-DT is iffy with the 4221.

Well, that seals the deal. Before, you had reported that you got WMPT-DT with your 4221. I always hesitate to tell people to buy a different antenna when the one they're using works. If you were having problems, though, the 4228 is the way to go.

I have two HD sets. For one TV I have a CM4228 mounted in a storage space/attic behind one tv. The cable run for this is less than 10ft. Most of the time the 4228 works great. Down stairs I have a radio shack antenna (don't recall the model) and it works just OK. I have tried the silver sensor and it didn't work all that great for downstairs. What I would like to do is run about 100ft of cable from the CM4228 to a multiswitch then diplex the signal for the downstairs tv. My question is when I tried a test just going into the grounding block the downstairs TV could pick up anything. I think the cable run was too long. It is 100 ft to the grounding block plus however long the cable is through the house to the TV. I am going to install a multiswitch this week when I get my HD tivo. Will the multiswitch since it is powered help with my problem or do I need a pre amp. My concern is a pre amp might make things worse since I am only 11 miles from the towers. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

My concern is a pre amp might make things worse since I am only 11 miles from the towers. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

At 11 miles, you don't need a preamp, even for a 100'+ run. You should troubleshoot other problems, like potentially a bad grounding block, bad cable, bad connectors, etc. If you're using RG-59 cable, you should replace it with shielded RG-6.

Anyone in the Westminster, MD area (Carroll county) have luck with any particular attic mount antennas? Just looking for digital channels to complement satellite service. I'm just under 25 miles from the antenna farm in Baltimore and I'm in a residential neighborhood (2 story townhome). I want to avoid roof mounting. Any make/model suggestions appreciated. Thanks!

Anyone in the Westminster, MD area (Carroll county) have luck with any particular attic mount antennas?

You'd have better luck finding locals in the Baltimore thread.

Generically, the Channel Master 4228 is either the best, or near the best, for attic antennas. Buy one from a place you can return it to if it doesn't work out, try it, and see.

Anyone in the Westminster, MD area (Carroll county) have luck with any particular attic mount antennas? Just looking for digital channels to complement satellite service. I'm just under 25 miles from the antenna farm in Baltimore and I'm in a residential neighborhood (2 story townhome). I want to avoid roof mounting. Any make/model suggestions appreciated. Thanks!

Not to take the thread off topic but I live near Sykesville and just ordered a Channel Master 3016 which I will install in my attic in the next few weeks. Post a follow up in the DC/Baltimore thread in a few weeks and I'll let you know how it works.

You'd have better luck finding locals in the Baltimore thread.

Generically, the Channel Master 4228 is either the best, or near the best, for attic antennas. Buy one from a place you can return it to if it doesn't work out, try it, and see.
Not to take the thread off topic but I live near Sykesville and just ordered a Channel Master 3016 which I will install in my attic in the next few weeks. Post a follow up in the DC/Baltimore thread in a few weeks and I'll let you know how it works.
I posted in the Baltimore/DC thread ealier and didn't get a lot of response. Thanks for the Channel Master recoomendation.

August, please do post your results. I'll look for your post in the DC/Balt thread. Good luck!

I’m having a house built and the contractor doing the structured wiring has plans of dropping the off air antenna directly to the HT TV. I think it would be better to run this to the distribution box so I could send that signal to any TV.

What do you think?

Here's my setup, so those of you in my area can know what works:

Location:

Porter Ranch, CA 91326
Near Northridge and Chatsworth


House Construction:

Two story
Wood on concrete foundation
Stucco exterior (with chicken wire)
Concrete tile roof


Antenna:

Channel Master 3016 located in attic
I used the included matching transformer to connect to an RG-6 cable run down to my TV box on the side of the house. The RG-6 run is about 100 feet from the box to the antenna
The antenna lead connects to a 3x8 multiswitch that Directv installed with my dish
I break the antenna signal off my satellite cable at the satellite box using the diplexer listed below.


Diplexer:

Zenith brand


Where purchased:

Channel Master 3016 antenna ($35) from Lowes
Zenith diplexer ($13) from Lowes
Attic mount for antenna ($5) from Lowes
Mast for antenna ($8) from Lowes


Install Notes:

We purchased our home new and had the builder run six RG-6 leads into the attic for satellite stuff. Two of these are used by our satellite dish, and now one more for the antenna.
Antenna install time was about 2 hours. Most of the time was negotiating myself into/out of the attic to get tools.
Do the install on a cool day. I didn't and I think I lost about 10 pounds, all sweat.
The antenna is a tight fit. Our house happens to face the transmission towers, so the length of the antenna wasn't an issue. However, the width of the antenna caused the four longest elements to interfere with the veritcal 2x4s in attic.
The antenna points out one end of the house, thru a stucco wall, more-or-less directly at the transmission towers 28 miles away, line of sight. Other than the stucco wall, it's a straight, unobstructed shot. On a clear day with binoculars I can see the transmission cluster on Mt. Wilson.


Signal Quality:

I was previously using a whip antenna (one rabbit ear) on top of my entertainment center. I was getting decent signal:
2.1=86, 4.1=82, 7.1=47, 9.1=80, 11.1=54, 13.1=0
The analog channels were worthless.
New reception is not any better, but the weak or missing channels have been filled in. Futher, I now get the analog channels as good as those from Directv.
2.1=75, 4.1=79, 7.1=78, 9.1=81, 11.1=79, 13.1=79
This reception is without any antenna aiming. I just ballparked the direction based on antennaweb. I plan on fine tuning the aim on a future weekend once I have my HDTivo installed.

Wow, I'm surprised you get anything at all through the chicken wire. That stuff will cut your reception way down. I'm sure you've heard it before... get it outside and higher is usually better. I'm not discouraging attic mounts, I have mine set up that way. The only difference is that I'm shooting through a wood and asphalt shingle roof and I'm about 22 miles from the broadcast towers.

Good luck with your fine tuning.

Wow, I'm surprised you get anything at all through the chicken wire. That stuff will cut your reception way down.

In my bedroom I have a silver sensor in the closet and it picks up a digital station 30 miles away shooting through a stucco wall. I think windows leak a lot of signal into the house. The thing I found that has the most problems with stucco is my old 27 Mhz cordless phone.

I put a 'coat hanger' (homemade antenna (http://home.columbus.rr.com/jonesd/homemade.png) ) in my attic to feed my living room though. The signal gets split a couple times so I needed the extra gain. The non-UHF stations are no more than 6 miles away.

the direct tv guy was out today hooking up hd with the ota antenae? I thought you needed to run the hd direct tv and the ota antenae seperate and he stated that he connected the two (3lnb dish and ota antenae) on the roof and that is why only 1 line was running into my building and that my HD receiver will seperate the cable from the local channels .......
does this sound right??? ---he will be back tomorrow to finish the install???

I thought you needed to run the hd direct tv and the ota antenae seperate and he stated that he connected the two (3lnb dish and ota antenae) on the roof and that is why only 1 line was running into my building and that my HD receiver will seperate the cable from the local channels .......
does this sound right??? ---he will be back tomorrow to finish the install???

He's using a multiplexer. They work fine for many people, but if you have reception problems with OTA, the first thing to try is to bypass the multiplexer. They often introduce noise at certain frequencies (varies by local conditions) that can destroy one channel while letting everything else through. When it works, it does so because DirecTV uses different frequencies for the satellite info than broadcast OTA does.

A low-loss SAT/TV "Diplexer" can be used to combine the OTA signals (54-806 MHz) with the SAT signals (960-1450 MHz) on the same downlead.
Then another "Diplexer" is used to split out the signals feeding the SAT receiver input and OTA input(s).
Some Multiswitches have an OTA input, which means they employ an internal "Diplexer".
And some newer Dishes have the Multiswitch built in and may require an external Diplexer(s).

A Diplexer may look like a standard cable RF splitter, but it works quite differently, using bandpass filters to separate the SAT and OTA signals.
A "DC PASS" port must be used when connecting the Dish to the SAT Receiver, because the receiver provides power and control signals to the LNB's.
And you want to make sure that DC Power is BLOCKED going to the OTA receiver input(s).

i have gotten my new antenna to install tomorrow and am wondering something. at the current time, the only HD stations are in one direction so i don't think that i need a rotator. is it particularly difficult to install one later? i don't want to get one right now because i am already over what i wanted to spend so i am trying to cut costs in the now if possible.

thanks.

Running the rotator wire is the biggest issue. Installing the rotator itself is just a matter of getting up there to do it and getting another short piece of mast.

If you really think you'll add a rotator later, run the rotator wire now. The CM model uses a 3-conductor wire. It wouldn't hurt to run 5 or even 6 conductor wire in case you want a heavy-duty rotator at some point.

Hello,

I've got a Winegard Sensar III mounted outdoors and I'm less than a mile from all the antennas according to antennaweb. I get a handful of signals and I'm not sure if I switch to the Terk HDTVs outdoor amplified antenna will help or not. Also wondering if moving the antenna to a higher point would help. I talked to a local electronics store and they pretty much said that the towers around me will make it impossible to get any signals due to mulit-path / null phenomena. Please advise... maybe it's time I switch to cable.

Thanks,
R

When you are that close, you obviously have TOO much signal strength.
The last thing you want to do is use an amplified antenna, like the Sensar III.

So if you intend using an outdoor antenna (which should minimize multipath), then it must be unamplified.
Even then you'll probably still have TOO much signal strength and may need to insert
a $10 Variable RF Attenuator (Radio Shack 15-678) prior to the antenna input on your TV.

Leakage into the long downlead cable can also result in multipath interference.
Double or Quad shielded cable can help reduce this problem.

Instead of outdoors, you may want to try using an indoor antenna (thereby eliminating the long downlead),
but you may still need the Variable RF Attenuator to reduce the signal strength.

You might want to try the Terk HDTVi (with rabbit ears for VHF) or the Silver Sensor (without),
since they are directional and can provide significant multipath reduction.
You might also want to try a cheap clipon bowtie or loop/rabbit ear type antenna,
esp if you just happen to have one in the house. Just make sure it's unamplified.

Plus, that close to the towers, most of their signal is going over your head. Likely what you are picking up is a reflection. Try aiming your antenna in different directions away from the tower and see if you can pick up a reflected signal that will work better for you than the direct signal. There is a good chance that a reflection will give you a better signal.

Hello, I'm recently trying to figure all this antenna stuff out. I live in Chico, CA, zip code 95926. My first buy was a Terk TV44 antenna. It actually worked a lot better than I thought. It picked up everything locally in digital. My only problem was that ABC was out of Redding, about 72 miles away and that's the only channel in my area in HD. I could get that channel most of the time, usually 60%70% strength. So then I went to Solid Signal because I figured I needed something that was a step up. They recommended the Winegard SS-2000. I got that and it was a piece of crap. First my installation instructions from them were wrong and Winegard says I probably blew the amp. Solid Signal has been helpful and they are taking it back. So my question is what will really work best for me? I'm in an apartment but I can put something on the roof, just nothing crazy. I've been thinking about the Terk TV55 or the Channel Master 3000. The other thing is that with the Terk TV44 I got channels out of Sacramento in analog. So like I said, the TV44 was pretty decent. I just want a little extra boost so the ABC signal stays constant. Can anyone help me out?

Thanks.

Running the rotator wire is the biggest issue. Installing the rotator itself is just a matter of getting up there to do it and getting another short piece of mast.

If you really think you'll add a rotator later, run the rotator wire now. The CM model uses a 3-conductor wire. It wouldn't hurt to run 5 or even 6 conductor wire in case you want a heavy-duty rotator at some point.


Did Winegard ever produce the rotor that ran off the coax cable, that it claimed it was about to introduce a year or two ago?

I just want a little extra boost so the ABC signal stays constant. Can anyone help me out?

72 miles is pushing things for most people, but KRCR has a very tall antenna tower (or they're on a really big mountain) so you're within range. I'd look into either the Channel Master 4228 or 4221, depending on which one you think the apartment complex will approve. Either of those on your roof should beat your Terk.

[QUOTE=ericdwong]
http://home.comcast.net/~ewong61/antenna/antenna1.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~ewong61/antenna/antenna2.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~ewong61/antenna/antenna3.JPG

Ive posted this before but sometime next month I will pull the trigger on this project, it is hot as blazes out and I have too many other projects to worry about so here is my final planning. I'm told that my antennas are too close to one another, which they most likely are. The setup you see is a Channel Master VHF only at the bottom (forgot the model), the Channel Master 8 foot parabolic. I didnt put up a preamp last time and am regretting it for UHF.

So Im thinking of changing the setup. Rather then 3 seperate antennas that are too close together, one that is too low, and some that are not facing the same direction, 2 of them run thru a lossy UHF/VHF combiner, I'm thinking of using one giant antenna, such as Winegards' HD8200P. I like that unit because it has a 75 ohm output, so I wont have to use lossy transformers. Then I would use something like a Channel Master 7777 preamp, to boost the signal as it will be split a few times. That antenna is 15 feet long, but I would be able to get that single antenna as high as possible, rather then one up high, one middle and one low, and not have to worry about antennas interfering with one another.

What do you all think? I know that channel master parabolic one which isn't made anymore is one of the highest gain UHF ones available, but I'd like to try something new. Apparently its front/back ratio isnt that good for Digital TV reception. Not only that, you can see how one of the pictures, the "focus" of the parabolic part does not line up with the elements. One giant antenna would seem to alleviate alot of these concerns. I'll also most likely try to elevate the antenna even higher and then double up on the guy wire.

A zip code would help.

Chances are, your parabolic UHF is no longer outperformiong large Yagis because of the physical deterioration of its reflector.

If you don't need analog, then you won't need an antenna for channels 2-6, since Baltimore 2 and Washington 4 and 5 will not be in the lowband after the transition is over. You would be best served by some comnination of a large UHF and VHF highband, or possibly by fixing two VHFs pointed at two markets and having just the UHF on the rotor. It really depends on your exact reception situation.

A zip code would help.

Chances are, your parabolic UHF is no longer outperformiong large Yagis because of the physical deterioration of its reflector.

If you don't need analog, then you won't need an antenna for channels 2-6, since Baltimore 2 and Washington 4 and 5 will not be in the lowband after the transition is over. You would be best served by some comnination of a large UHF and VHF highband, or possibly by fixing two VHFs pointed at two markets and having just the UHF on the rotor. It really depends on your exact reception situation.


21047 is the zipcode. I primarily get the Baltimore stations but I would like to reel in DC and also Philadelphia. I would be using DTV, as well as analog UHF and VHF as well as FM radio. So, I would like to get as much off of analog and digital as possible (Im a nut). I liked the idea of using one large yagi, like the a-forementioned Winegard, cause it will be cheaper in the end, with less transformers and wires, and I can get "the whole package" up high rather then one at the top and then others down below. I thought about multiple fixed antennas as well, but I'd prefer the rotator method.

I should mention I am behind a hill, so that complicates things.

I have a Mit. WS5571. I am using a standard old antenna to obtain OTA HD signal. I get all of the HD channel and the pictures look great. However, the top and botton portions of the picture are cut off - the picture does not fit - vertically - in the TV screen. I called for TV repair service thinking that the Mit. needs some type of vertical adjustment to squeeze the picture down in order to fit in TV screen. The repair person told me not to waste a service call because the problem is with the antenna. He said I should probably get a new HD antenna. This did not sound right to me. I thought that I either "get" HD reception, which I do - or I "don't get" the reception. I did not realize the an antenna could determine the size of the picture I am receiving. Can some clarify this for me.


Thank you.

Art

When you are that close, you obviously have TOO much signal strength.
The last thing you want to do is use an amplified antenna, like the Sensar III.

So if you intend using an outdoor antenna (which should minimize multipath), then it must be unamplified.
Even then you'll probably still have TOO much signal strength and may need to insert
a $10 Variable RF Attenuator (Radio Shack 15-678) prior to the antenna input on your TV.

Leakage into the long downlead cable can also result in multipath interference.
Double or Quad shielded cable can help reduce this problem.

Instead of outdoors, you may want to try using an indoor antenna (thereby eliminating the long downlead),
but you may still need the Variable RF Attenuator to reduce the signal strength.

You might want to try the Terk HDTVi (with rabbit ears for VHF) or the Silver Sensor (without),
since they are directional and can provide significant multipath reduction.
You might also want to try a cheap clipon bowtie or loop/rabbit ear type antenna,
esp if you just happen to have one in the house. Just make sure it's unamplified.


So the Terk HDTVs amplified outdoor antenna would be too much? From the specs it says that this antenna is great to catch reflections so one would think this would work well.... confused... I've tried an indoor bowtie antenna and get nothing. Thanks again for your replies!

R

I liked the idea of using one large yagi, like the a-forementioned Winegard, cause it will be cheaper in the end, with less transformers and wires, and I can get "the whole package" up high rather then one at the top and then others down below. I thought about multiple fixed antennas as well, but I'd prefer the rotator method.

Well, there is no magic device. The 8200P does have a 75-Ohm download, but that's because the balun is built-in to begin with. And it combines the VHF and UHF signals in that little box, as well. You do gain the lack of connector loss, but that's minimal and probably not worth worrying about.

So, a Channel Master 7777 with separate inputs isn't costing you anything, two baluns won't be any different, and the last item, height, isn't as much of a factor for VHF - you could drop it by 6' and still be on the same wavelength for a lot of it.

The bulkiest part of the 8200P is the lo-VHF section (and it's reflector) which you don't need. Other than a neat "all-in-one" package, you aren't getting much. I had the 8200P and replaced it with an AntennasDirect 91XG and I can tell you the 91XG is significantly better for UHF.

I have a Mit. WS5571. I am using a standard old antenna to obtain OTA HD signal. I get all of the HD channel and the pictures look great. However, the top and botton portions of the picture are cut off - the picture does not fit - vertically - in the TV screen. I called for TV repair service thinking that the Mit. needs some type of vertical adjustment to squeeze the picture down in order to fit in TV screen. The repair person told me not to waste a service call because the problem is with the antenna. He said I should probably get a new HD antenna. This did not sound right to me. I thought that I either "get" HD reception, which I do - or I "don't get" the reception. I did not realize the an antenna could determine the size of the picture I am receiving. Can some clarify this for me.


Thank you.

Art
The repair person is full of it. Are you sure the TV display mode (or your HDTV set-top box) is set correctly (on my Toshiba for full-screen HDTV I set the TV's aspect ratio to "natural" - also, I set my STB to "native," which sends the video through at the resolution in which it was broadcast (1080i or 720p)). Another possibility could be the TV's overscanning, or the vertical/horizontal need adjusting.

My TV is set correctly. The HD tuner is built into the TV. I cannot change the screen format on the "ANT-DTV" input. When I try to change it - a message comes on the screen indicating that the HD format cannot be changed.

Art,
Sure looks like you TV is set to zoom a 4x3 picture to fill the 16x9 screen, thus cutting off the top and bottom of the picture. Very likely the channels you are viewing are not showing HDTV at the time. They are probably showing SD digital, and your TV should be set to display SD pillar boxed, so you won't loose any of the picture.

Still, the antenna has absolutely no effect on the way your TV displays different aspect ratio material.

So the Terk HDTVs amplified outdoor antenna would be too much? From the specs it says that this antenna is great to catch reflections so one would think this would work well.... confused... I've tried an indoor bowtie antenna and get nothing. Thanks again for your replies!

R
R
The folks who were talking to you about signal nulls weren't too far off the mark. If it is just one tower and you are about a mile away, typically there is not much signal there. If there is any, it tends to be clustered in rings around the tower as you move outward from the base. You good be in a ring that has too much signal, as one poster said, and could easily overdrive an amplified antenna. On the other hand, you could be in an area with no signal (a null) and really be fighting for any signal what so ever. One of my guys lives four miles from our tower and is in the null of a couple of the local stations.

Unless your TV stations' tower was built right in a city, broadcasters don't tend to put much signal downward. For instance, most of the Houston towers sere put up in the early 80's out in an area that used to be rice fields. No one lived anywhere near the towers, so most stations ignored the null fill option (downward signal) so that they could put more power out at the horizon. Twenty years later developments surround the tower farm on two sides, with a third growing in towards us daily. Many home owners here are exactly in your situation.

When folks on this forum talk about an indoor bowtie, they tent to mean something like the attached picture. For this to work, you may need to get it near a window and play around a little, like pointing it upwards besides back & forth. Drag the TV over for antenna playtime if you have too because you need to figure out how to get a signal before you can figure out where to place an antenna permanently (and then run the antenna cable over to where you want the Tv to live).

A better antenna would be a 4-bay like a CM4221 and play with it the same way (but hopefully outside). If you do have too much signal with the 4221, you can always use the attic for an attenuator. Use the analog signals while you still can. Too much signal strength tends to put diagonal bars running through the picture and/or a buzz in the sound. Too little signal and you get a snowy picture or no picture at all.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

21047 is the zipcode. I primarily get the Baltimore stations but I would like to reel in DC and also Philadelphia. I would be using DTV, as well as analog UHF and VHF as well as FM radio. So, I would like to get as much off of analog and digital as possible (Im a nut). I liked the idea of using one large yagi, like the a-forementioned Winegard, cause it will be cheaper in the end, with less transformers and wires, and I can get "the whole package" up high rather then one at the top and then others down below. I thought about multiple fixed antennas as well, but I'd prefer the rotator method.

I should mention I am behind a hill, so that complicates things.
Eric

I think the Winegard 8200 antenna comes from the old Winegard 2000 series antenna line. The 2000 series type of baluns tended to get noisy over time due to corrosion of the clips and flexing of the connection in winds. If this antenna is available locally, you might want to check if the balun clips on to a pair of large wires that run parallel to the boom. (Rather than being built like on a Winegard HD7210 or having an external balun like the Channel Master 0089.) If the 8200 is not available locally, you will also have to pay truck freight charges because UPS cannot handle the size of the boom.

An alternate would be the CM 3671. It definitely breaks down for UPS shipping and has an external balun.

I wish we still had our CM parabolic antenna here. It was the only antenna that ever worked well at our transmitter site. We lost it one day in one of those windy rainstorms that folks attach names to.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

What is the best Antenna for an attic? I would like an antenna that will pick-up UHF/VHF/FM. My home is covered in stucco as well. I would like something with around 100 mile range if possible.

~Josh

However, the top and botton portions of the picture are cut off - the picture does not fit - vertically - in the TV screen. I called for TV repair service thinking that the Mit. needs some type of vertical adjustment to squeeze the picture down in order to fit in TV screen. The repair person told me not to waste a service call because the problem is with the antenna. He said I should probably get a new HD antenna. This did not sound right to me.

The repair person doesn't know what they're talking about.

Assuming you're talking about HD programming (i.e. 16:9) and the top and bottom of the screen are cut off, it's probably a poor setting for overscan. Normally, this can only be corrected in the service menus. I don't recommend you mess with service menu settings unless you A) know what you're doing or B) are willing to pay somebody to fix what you mess up. It is possible to do permanent damage to your television in the service menus (which may explain why they are not in the 'user menus.')

Either find a more qualified repair service, or look into having your set calibrated by an ISF certified technician. If you haven't used a DVD like Video Essentials to calibrate your set, the ISF call will be well worth the money - they can optimize your set far better than how it came out of the box. Colors will be truer, the picture might be sharper and clearer, and they can certainly fix overscan issues correctly.

What is the best Antenna for an attic? I would like an antenna that will pick-up UHF/VHF/FM. My home is covered in stucco as well. I would like something with around 100 mile range if possible.

For UHF, the best attic antenna is the Channel Master 4228. It doesn't have a 100 mile range, though, as no UHF signal has that kind of range under "normal" conditions. For transmitters that are very high, though, that kind of reach is possible, but you need line-of-sight and few people have line-of-sight for 100 miles.

For VHF, the biggest antenna you can fit in your attic is the best one. These can reach 100 miles (or more) but it can be hard to predict.

Regardless, the stucco in your house will block any signals (UHF or VHF) and that will make things hard. Depending on your roofing materials, you'll lose a lot of signal before it ever gets near your antenna.

As always, you can try an attic install, but they are never "recommended" and success is more of a dice roll than a certainty. Outdoor installs, and higher rather than lower, have a much higher rate of success.

If this antenna is available locally, you might want to check if the balun clips on to a pair of large wires that run parallel to the boom.

This is how my HD7084 worked - but the entire thing was enclosed in a plastic box that looked weather tight, which may have eliminated the corrosion issue.

The Winegard 70XX antennas use the 75 ohm cartridges that are perfectly weatherproof.

The Winegard Prostar antennas are 300 ohm antennas that use industry-standard, 10-32 screw terminals to attach the balun. I've never known them to get noisy over time, but then, I don't think I've ever had the means to tell if their performance had deteriorated by some small increment.

The PR series antennas typically cost maybe $20 to $40 less than do physically comparable, Chromstar 70XX antennas. As long as you use an "outdoor" balun, which costs about $.50 to $1.00 more than does an indoor balun but which is usually shipped free with the antenna, you might be happier saving the $20 to $40. You can even put a tiny blob of "coax seal" where the two wires go into the plastic housing, or you can smother it in electrical tape.

Well, there is no magic device. The 8200P does have a 75-Ohm download, but that's because the balun is built-in to begin with. And it combines the VHF and UHF signals in that little box, as well. You do gain the lack of connector loss, but that's minimal and probably not worth worrying about.

So, a Channel Master 7777 with separate inputs isn't costing you anything, two baluns won't be any different, and the last item, height, isn't as much of a factor for VHF - you could drop it by 6' and still be on the same wavelength for a lot of it.

The bulkiest part of the 8200P is the lo-VHF section (and it's reflector) which you don't need. Other than a neat "all-in-one" package, you aren't getting much. I had the 8200P and replaced it with an AntennasDirect 91XG and I can tell you the 91XG is significantly better for UHF.


Interesting. Now that you mention it, I may actually keep the setup I have. As it is right now I get usually high 80-90% reception (as indicated on my Dish 811 HDTV receiver) on the Baltimore DTV stations and thats with no preamp.


I will rent a cherry picker so I can service the stack. I need to weld 2 of the poles together because the slip joint slips in the wind, the whole stack moves. I will also put on the CM 7777 preamp/amp to help drive the signal better. Also need to realign the antennas since the VHF is slight misaligned when we put the stack up (using the drag it on the roof method). And realign the parabolic one since the center element is slightly off center.

My other goal is to get the antennas spaced further apart. Id like to put another 5 foot section on to raise up the FM unit and space out the UHF from the VHF. Hope it can take the load.

I wonder if there is any sort of rehash kit for the CM parabolic, replacing its reflectors etc. I may also try the "wire mesh" mod to increase the front/back ratio.


Eric

I think the Winegard 8200 antenna comes from the old Winegard 2000 series antenna line. The 2000 series type of baluns tended to get noisy over time due to corrosion of the clips and flexing of the connection in winds. If this antenna is available locally, you might want to check if the balun clips on to a pair of large wires that run parallel to the boom. (Rather than being built like on a Winegard HD7210 or having an external balun like the Channel Master 0089.) If the 8200 is not available locally, you will also have to pay truck freight charges because UPS cannot handle the size of the boom.

An alternate would be the CM 3671. It definitely breaks down for UPS shipping and has an external balun.

I wish we still had our CM parabolic antenna here. It was the only antenna that ever worked well at our transmitter site. We lost it one day in one of those windy rainstorms that folks attach names to.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

I didnt realize the parabolics were still in demand from enthusiasts. It is sure ugly, but I guess it work well. I heard CM discontinued it because they tossed the tool to make it.

Thank for the suggestion. Is possible for some programs to fit within the screen, on a vertical basis, while others do not. For example I was watching Fox's NFL football last night and there was no top/bottom cutoff. I have noticed that with ABC sporting programs in HD that I get the cutoff.

Thank for the suggestion. Is possible for some programs to fit within the screen, on a vertical basis, while others do not. For example I was watching Fox's NFL football last night and there was no top/bottom cutoff. I have noticed that with ABC sporting programs in HD that I get the cutoff.

I think this is the TV. My Mits DLP, for example, has about 8 or so "zoom" type modes for SD signals but only 2 for HD viewing ("standard" and "wide expand"). I'm guessing that you have your zoom mode set "properly" for your SD signals but your HD viewing is set with some kind of zoom.

Can you bring your signal in via a different input? On the DLP I do not use the DTV input but rather the coax ANT inputs ANT-1 for cable and ANT-2 for OTA. I assume your Mits is a CRT and it may be different than my Mits DLP in this respect.

How is the gain on the XG91 for Hi VHF? I am pleased with my XG91 for UHF, but after the analog shut off.....whenever that really may be......2 of my stations will revert back to their analog assignments. Namely ch. 12 and ch. 10. Will this antenna suffice?

I have a RS vu190xr vhf/uhf antenna with CM7777 that is ok for UHF from two locations 30 degrees apart. One is 47 miles and the other 23 miles. By careful pointing (seasonal because of trees) most are acceptable except a PBS on ch 3 (47 miles).
Question 1 - would a dedicated low VHF(antennasdirect V4) be better than the RS combo for ch 3?
Question 2 - If I do the low VHF for ch3 what would be a good UHF antenna to replace the RS combo antenna and span the 30 degree spread (without a rotor). I would run both into the cm7777.
Question 3 - One of the UHF channels will revert to ch 13 which I hope a UHF antenna will be able to pick up?
The number of variables make the decision difficult - any guidance would be appreciated.
Bernieoc

72 miles is pushing things for most people, but KRCR has a very tall antenna tower (or they're on a really big mountain) so you're within range. I'd look into either the Channel Master 4228 or 4221, depending on which one you think the apartment complex will approve. Either of those on your roof should beat your Terk.


Thanks for the reply on this. I wasn't quite ready to go with one of those because those are fairly big and noticeable. When I bought my Terk TV44 the guy at Solid Signal told me those are basically just a pair of rabbit ears on the roof. With that I got Digital NBC, CBS, and Fox all above 80%, and ABC above 60%, but it went out sometimes. I got all of these in Analog and also got CBS and ABC out of Sacramento in Analog. After that I bought the SS-2000 and it only got two stations in digital and the signal was 49% so it really didn't get them because I never saw a picture. Also didn't get the Analog out of Sacramento. So today I went to Sears and bought the Terk TV55 because Sears has a 30 day money back guarantee. I've installed that up on my roof and now that is doing the same thing as the SS-2000. If the Terk TV44 is just a set of rabbit ears on the roof why is it beating everything else by far. I have no obstructions anywhere around me. I feel like I've pointed that thing every direction. Before I take this back on Monday does anyone have any ideas on anything I can do to make this work. Why doesn't anything work better than the Terk TV44? This is really frustrating. Even the guy at Winegard told me it made no sense with my SS-2000. Solid Signal is taking that back because the Winegard guy says it must be defective. My next step is to buy the Channel Master recommended to me on here, but I'd like to hold off. Once again, zip is 95926. Please help me! Thanks.

I have a sloped roof (not extreme)...I wanted to mount my 4228 with a wall mount instead but the eaves on my house are >12" (that's all Ratshack had was 12" and I don't want to buy online unless I have to)...I want to mount it near the edge of one roof (best reception there) and don't know what kind of mount to use...I don't have a chimney so that's out too...what works for a sloped roof?

How is the gain on the XG91 for Hi VHF? I am pleased with my XG91 for UHF, but after the analog shut off.....whenever that really may be......2 of my stations will revert back to their analog assignments. Namely ch. 12 and ch. 10. Will this antenna suffice?

Um... why don't you try tuning to channels 10 and 12 with an analog tuner and see how the picture looks? That should give you a good idea how clean the signal is.

I get very good results with the 91XG for a channel 10 within 30 miles of me, but the best results are "off-axis" meaning I have to aim the antenna a little to the right or left (like 35-60 degrees) to get the best reception.

Before I take this back on Monday does anyone have any ideas on anything I can do to make this work. Why doesn't anything work better than the Terk TV44? This is really frustrating.

Of those antennas, the Terk TV44 is the closest to a "normal" antenna design, which is probably why it works the best. The Winegard SS2000 is really designed for urban locations - reception inside of 20-30 miles. For long distance, it's not very good. The TV55 is a "gimmick" antenna - they rarely work well for anybody.

You could try something like the DB2 from AntennasDirect. It's fairly small (about the size of the SS2000) and performs very well for its size.

Your frustration comes from trying to do everything "wrong" and not getting great results. You probably need a standard designed, fairly large antenna to get many of the stations you're after. You're trying to make do with something much smaller, and when it comes to reception size does matter. The 4221 isn't very big - 2' x 4', and the 4228 is only 4'x4', which is small compared to the 15' long (by 10' wide) antenna I used to have on top of my 54' tower. But when you're trying to hide something on your roof, any of these antennas may be too big.