Is this possible? I'd like to do the same exact thing so that I can receive about 6 more HD signals from the opposite direction.


I'm no expert at this, but my guess would be that this would result in a multipath nightmare. (snow and ghosting.)

I did not realize this thread was so long. I read the first 10 pages then skipped through. Great information so far but I have a coupse questions also.

I would like to know about combining antennas to get better signal. 2 antenna's (roof antenna and indoor powered antenna) into 1 hd tuner box. I figure it wouldn't hurt to try but someone might no the specifics of why it would or would not work.

here is my next question. I am in southern California (LA area) and I can see the antenna's that broadcast almost every hd station I would ever need. I am in a 1 story apartment with only trees separating me from the towers. I am 6.4 miles away from the towers according to antennaweb and they suggested a indoor non powered antenna to pull in every channel. I have tried rabit ears, roof antenna (my neighbors), and a powered antenna. I can easily get channels 2,5,7,9 but the channel I really want is 11. All three antenna's have about 50% signal strength no matter what i do (pre amp, line amplifyer, etc) Is there any way (or a better antenna I can try) that can specifically pull in certain channels? the current antenna I am using is the Terk5 but it still wont get more than 50% signal for anything. Please help me out I really would like the rest of the channels. Thank you.


You would think that being close to Mt Wilson would make it easy, wouldn't you???
Unfortunately, there are a bunch of problems being too close to the towers.

First of all, you probably have TOO much signal which is overloading your HDTV.
Powered antenna and Preamps are not helping this situation.
You also might be getting signal leakage into either the coax or even the HDTV.

To check for signal leakage into the HDTV, fabricate a coax "shorting" plug,
attach it to your HDTV's antenna input and make sure that the HDTV is only seeing weak signals.....if at all.
Then reconnect the coax downlead and connect the "shorting" plug onto the antenna end of the cable and see if the coax is leaking.
(You might need an RF Splitter to adapt the connectors).

You can take an old junker coax cable and chop off the last few inches including the connector and simply twist the inner wire to the shield wires.
Or solder a center wire to the outside sleeve on a Type-F coax connector.

Second thing is to try reducing the signal strength going into your HDTV by inserting a R-S 15-678 Variable RF Attenuator and see if tweaking it will help:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062022&cp=&kw=attenuator&parentPage=search

Next culprit to check is multipath.
You are probably below the narrow beam put out by the transmitters, meaning that strong signals may be bouncing off of further away buildings and into your antenna.

Antenna placement is very critical to reduce multipath, but different stations will be affected differently....so hunt around for the best signal.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html

A more directional, outdoor antenna will help to minimize multipath, but keep that attenuator in the line.
If you have to use an indoor antenna, you might want to try the highly acclaimed Silver Sensor or Terk HDTVi equivalent which adds Rabbit Ears for VHF.
Note you might need to order something else for free shipping:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/103-4629645-2759835?url=index%3Dblended&field-keywords=silver+sensor&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go

Other antennas to consider for either outdoor or indoor use are the Antennas Direct DB-2, DB-4, the WG PR4400 and CM-4221 (in increasing order of desirability).
These are bigger and uglier, but maybe you can hide them behind a chair or in a closet.

When you combine two or more antennas pointed in different directions, there are several issues that need to be addressed:

1. Loss in the RF Combiner (RF Splitter in reverse) will reduce sensitivity by 4 dB, if this is an issue for you.
Some people reduce this to 0.2 dB by using the $100 Lindsay Stripline coupler.

2. Signal from antenna in desired direction will be combined with (amplified) multipath signals coming from the other antenna.

If only one channel is in the odd-ball direction, then a $40 JoinTenna can be used to minimize the multipath coupling between antennas.

For more than one channel, highly directional antennas may (or may not) help to reduce multipath.

You can eliminate the above problems by using an RF Switch (manual or R/C) to select between antennas.
R-S makes one with Remote Control capability:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049643&cp=&kw=remote+switch&parentPage=search


Some examples:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2780.html#POST16044
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2780.html#POST16670

Would how close the tree at the back of the house is to the mast have a terribly adverse effect considering the tree rises about 10 feet or so above the height of the mast, and would it help to install a new mast closer to the front of the house about 10 feet further from that tree?

I don't think 10' will make much difference one way or the other. A hundred feet, maybe...

For those inquiring about the Terk HDTVa earlier:

At a distance of 6 miles from the HDTV towers, I recieve hundred percent signal strength on every single channel available to me (16 of them, all UHF) with db measurements in-between 26db and 33db (not sure what exactly that means or what level is normally acceptable for db signal strength, but it was next to signal strength percentage so though there may interest in the info). I don't have any VHF channels to test against.

I'm hoping someone can help. I have searched this thread, but still don't see a solution. I live approximately 15 miles from my towns transmitters. They are all located on the same antenna farm. I have a CM 4228 in the attic. 3/4 of the time I have great reception. Signal quality = Good on my meter. The other 1/4 of the time I have drop outs and problems with one channel. The quality will drop to below normal, strength will go almost to 0. On the other tuner it says errors and the strength drops. This station is on channel 25. At the same time, I get some quality issues on a station that is on channel 46, not near as bad tho. All my other staions are fine. They are on channels 9, 45, and 21. This can happen at any time of day and in any weather. It effects one tuner more than the other. I assume this is because of a better tuner on the TV over the one in the DVR. The analog staions in the area show no signs of interference when this is happening, but they are all VHF.

Can anyone think of where I can go next?

Thanks!

When you combine two or more antennas pointed in different directions, there are several issues that need to be addressed:


For more than one channel, highly directional antennas may (or may not) help to reduce multipath.


Thanks for the advice. Of course not what I wanted to hear but then again if using multiple antennas were possible more would do and eliminate the need for a rotor which is not an option for me because I record too much on Tivo.

Antennasdirect labels the DB8 as a multidirectional antenna but they are wrong. Its beamwidth is about the same as the 4228. If you could figure out a way to mount all 8 bays vertically then it would have a wider horizontal and narrower vertical beamwidth than a CM-4228 but as shown they will be about the same. I can't think of a reason to get the more expensive dB8.

Looking back through some old post.....Has anyone successfully mounted two 4221's vertically to obtain a wider beam?

As you can tell from my previous post I'm trying to figure out a way to receive signals (~6 from each direction) without the use of a rotor. I've successfully picked up New Orleans, Biloxi and Mobile with one 4221 but a couple of the signals are weak.

Thanks for the advice. Of course not what I wanted to hear but then again if using multiple antennas were possible more would do and eliminate the need for a rotor which is not an option for me because I record too much on Tivo.

I'm almost the same situation. I just ordered a UHF antenna to compliment my vhf/uhf antenna. I'm basically going to use it to get the ABC/PBS channels. As I understand it, the existing uhf antenna could interfere with new uhf antenna even though I'm going to use a vhf-uhf combiner. I guess I'll see what happens this weekend. I could probably solve the problem if I put the antenna on the roof instead of the attic but I do not want to do any cold weather roof climbing yet.

I set an antenna up at my mothers house about 6 months ago, it was a CM 3671 with a CM lowes spartan preamp. Well my brother somehow lost the indoor power supply to the preamp messing with wires and just hooked it up directly to the box. So now there is no indoor power supply to the preamp and she cannot pick channels up above 13. Can I use a radio shack indoor power supply to the CM mounted preamp and not mess the outdoor preamp up? I just happened to still have the radio shack power supply from a few years ago. Any help would be appreciated.

I set an antenna up at my mothers house about 6 months ago, it was a CM 3671 with a CM lowes spartan preamp. Well my brother somehow lost the indoor power supply to the preamp messing with wires and just hooked it up directly to the box. So now there is no indoor power supply to the preamp and she cannot pick channels up above 13. Can I use a radio shack indoor power supply to the CM mounted preamp and not mess the outdoor preamp up? I just happened to still have the radio shack power supply from a few years ago. Any help would be appreciated.The reason she is getting only channels 13 and below is that the preamp passes VHF through regardless and when there is no power to the preamp, it blocks ALL UHF.

If you don't replace it with the right voltage, amperage and polarity power supply, you could blow the preamp and have to totally replace it anyway.

See if Channel master can replace the injector, for a small monitary remuneration, of course.

I've been trying to use a 4228 in the attic and have had limited success. I plan on moving it outdoors. I have a 2 story house and was thinking about getting a 40 ft. telescopic mast and mount it at ground level on the gable end of the house. I would add a clamp at the gable which is approx. 20 ft. high (can't attach it directly at the top of the gable because the mast would divide a window on the second floor).

I can not use guy wires due to the location. Therefore, I was thinking of getting the 40 ft. model and leaving the last section unused except for the 2 ft. or so to mount the antenna. This should provide more strength to the unsupported mast above the roof line / bracket. How much mast can be above the last support bracket? I won't be using a rotor. This should make the top of the antenna about 32 ft. off the ground (12 ft. from the wall bracket).

Should I go with a 50ft. mast and only use a few feet of the last 2 masts? Again about 12 ft. above the wall bracket but with 2 pieces of pipe extending 2 ft. above the 30 and the 30ft ft. section would be 3 separate tubes.

What is the best way to do this? Also, I read here that Lowe's sells 30 ft. masts. Where can one find a 40ft. or 50ft? Are the masts 5 ft. sections or 10 ft. sections.

Thanks

I use a paperclip.. works great.

channelmaster 3020 VS DB8?
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/3020.htm

40 miles from towers with neighbors house in way....my channels and signals are:

26 90s (always solid)
32 mid 70s ( always solid )
42 20s (If i only aim for this channel, 60 is best signal then others are bad)
54 50s-60 (very unreliable)
64 low 80s (dips to mid 70s)
67 low 80s (dips to mid 70s)

64 and 67 only came in strong with my DB8 literally touching the inside of my roof ridge in the attic. It's Impossible to go 1 millimeter higher. 6 inches made the difference between unreliable readings (70ish with dropouts to 50s) and I just made that adjustment yesterday.

The 13 ft long CM3020 (locally 100 bucks so returnable) would take up the whole length of my attic but it's in a part i dont care about. Also note it would be about 3-4 feet lower than my DB8 is now to accomodate the 13 ft length because my roof is 'facing the wrong way' if you know what i mean. I'm also hoping the rear vertical portion of the antenna wouldn't make me have to lower it too much more.

so my question is: given the signal problems I've noted above, will the 3020 help me if i keep it inside? Or should I just pay for someone to mount the DB8 on the roof? It seems real fun to put together if it's just in a 5ft box now. Will it help get channel 42 in so it's watchable and will it make the other signals even better?

thank you for your input


edit not sure it matters but 64 is going back to 6vhf in 2009 but i'm not sure i should worry about that now

For those inquiring about the Terk HDTVa earlier:

At a distance of 6 miles from the HDTV towers, I recieve hundred percent signal strength on every single channel available to me (16 of them, all UHF) with db measurements in-between 26db and 33db (not sure what exactly that means or what level is normally acceptable for db signal strength, but it was next to signal strength percentage so though there may interest in the info). I don't have any VHF channels to test against.
The dB numbers are probably SNR (Signal-To-Noise Ratio) as determined by the ATSC Decoder.
The minimum SNR for ATSC would be about 15 dB (with infrequent errors).
The maximum SNR will be determined by the granularity of the A/D Converter and other processes in the ATSC Decoder,
which probably won't be much more than your 33 dB number.
The excess above 15 dB is the Fade Margin, or the amount of protection you have against signal fading,
antenna pointing errors (esp in the wind), airplane induced signal flutter, seasonal signal level variations and whatever....

I set an antenna up at my mothers house about 6 months ago, it was a CM 3671 with a CM lowes spartan preamp. Well my brother somehow lost the indoor power supply to the preamp messing with wires and just hooked it up directly to the box. So now there is no indoor power supply to the preamp and she cannot pick channels up above 13. Can I use a radio shack indoor power supply to the CM mounted preamp and not mess the outdoor preamp up? I just happened to still have the radio shack power supply from a few years ago. Any help would be appreciated.
The CM Spartan requires 100ma current draw of +18 VDC (that's 1.8 watts).

If the R-S Power Module puts out anything from about +16 to +20 VDC, it should work just fine.

Thank you both for your help!!

I looked on the radio shack box and it says 120vac 60hz 3 watt max. Do you think that will be ok?

According to antennaweb, all the DTV channels (all are UHFs) that I need are at 344-345 degree and about 27 miles from my single story home. My neighbor two-story home is in the way. I would like to mount the antenna in my attic. What antenna should I get? Thanks.

According to antennaweb, all the DTV channels (all are UHFs) that I need are at 344-345 degree and about 27 miles from my single story home. My neighbor two-story home is in the way. I would like to mount the antenna in my attic. What antenna should I get? Thanks.

I think you will need to get your antenna above your neighbor’s roof.

I looked on the radio shack box and it says 120vac 60hz 3 watt max. Do you think that will be ok?
1.8 watts is less than 3 watts max.

Hi All. Here is my situation:

I just got a 37" Syntax LCD with ATSC Input. I live in an apartment in Dunwoody/Atlanta GA, and I am trying to get OTA HD channels. antennaweb says most are 183 degrees south of me, 13 miles away. Unfortunately, that direction puts the rest of the apt. building between me and the HD transmitting stations. Originally, I couldn't get anything on a rabbit ears antenna (not surprising). So, I purchased a Winegard PR4400 antenna, and am able to receive about 15 or 20 digital channels, including all of the networks HD signals (Yeah). The problem: Only one channel... CBS in Atlanta... comes in without interruption. All of the other channels will glitch. Some glitch once every couple of minutes, others every 20 seconds. They all look beautifull... when they are not glitching! There is about 35 feet of cable between the antenna and the receiver. I'd really like to pull in these channels. Will any of these options help? Which one should I try first:

1) a second antenna. Yeah, yeah, I might should have gone with an 8 bay bowtie in the beginning. But the four-bay winegard I purchased *almost does the trick* , so maybe a second combined with this will bring everything in perfectly?

2) a preamp. Preamps don't add what isn't there... would my current situation be helped by a preamp?

3) both.

Thoughts?

channelmaster 3020 VS DB8?

The DB8 is a far superior UHF antenna. I'd go to the roof and hope for the best.

The dB numbers are probably SNR (Signal-To-Noise Ratio) as determined by the ATSC Decoder.
The minimum SNR for ATSC would be about 15 dB (with infrequent errors).
The maximum SNR will be determined by the granularity of the A/D Converter and other processes in the ATSC Decoder,
which probably won't be much more than your 33 dB number.
The excess above 15 dB is the Fade Margin, or the amount of protection you have against signal fading,
antenna pointing errors (esp in the wind), airplane induced signal flutter, seasonal signal level variations and whatever....

Thanks for the info! Glad to see I have a little padding, but at only 5.9 miles from the antennas I didn't really expect trouble. Now I'm sure I'll be back with more questions why I get around to mounting an antenna on a buddies roof :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fat2020
According to antennaweb, all the DTV channels (all are UHFs) that I need are at 344-345 degree and about 27 miles from my single story home. My neighbor two-story home is in the way. I would like to mount the antenna in my attic. What antenna should I get? Thanks.

I think you will need to get your antenna above your neighbor’s roof.
Thank you for your suggestion. There is a small portion in the front of my house that might have a clear view to the tower. Mounting the antenna in the front of the house might not look good. That's why I will try the attic first. Still what kind of antenna should I get?

I've been trying to use a 4228 in the attic and have had limited success. I plan on moving it outdoors. I have a 2 story house and was thinking about getting a 40 ft. telescopic mast and mount it at ground level on the gable end of the house. I would add a clamp at the gable which is approx. 20 ft. high (can't attach it directly at the top of the gable because the mast would divide a window on the second floor).

I can not use guy wires due to the location. Therefore, I was thinking of getting the 40 ft. model and leaving the last section unused except for the 2 ft. or so to mount the antenna. This should provide more strength to the unsupported mast above the roof line / bracket. How much mast can be above the last support bracket? I won't be using a rotor. This should make the top of the antenna about 32 ft. off the ground (12 ft. from the wall bracket).

Should I go with a 50ft. mast and only use a few feet of the last 2 masts? Again about 12 ft. above the wall bracket but with 2 pieces of pipe extending 2 ft. above the 30 and the 30ft ft. section would be 3 separate tubes.

What is the best way to do this? Also, I read here that Lowe's sells 30 ft. masts. Where can one find a 40ft. or 50ft? Are the masts 5 ft. sections or 10 ft. sections.

Thanks

Channel Master recc.'s no more than 15 feet above roofline without guying. This assumes a sturdy ground mount strapped to the house on the way up.
The 4228 is a pretty large wind load, so you might keep it to 10 feet or less.

I installed mine with the mast upside down so the thickest part is at the top.

See http://www.channelmaster.com/pdf/AntInstallGuide.pdf

Still what kind of antenna should I get?

Analyze this page: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Bowtie designs work better in attics than yagis.

Unless you have serious blockage issues, almost any antenna listed on that page will work. I'd try the Channel Master 4221, personally.

But there are no guarantees, as there are more factors involved in reception than the average person can guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fat2020
According to antennaweb, all the DTV channels (all are UHFs) that I need are at 344-345 degree and about 27 miles from my single story home. My neighbor two-story home is in the way. I would like to mount the antenna in my attic. What antenna should I get? Thanks.


Thank you for your suggestion. There is a small portion in the front of my house that might have a clear view to the tower. Mounting the antenna in the front of the house might not look good. That's why I will try the attic first. Still what kind of antenna should I get?

Hi Fat2020 -- try a Channel Master 4228 first. Mount it inside your attic with a piece of PVC pipe that is attached to the highest peak under the roof where the trussus's meet. Use a quality RG-6 coax cable and be sure to ground it. Use your receiver signal strength meter to align and to the transmitter tower. Tilt it a little as well such as 5 to 10 degrees. If you do not receive the signal well, try a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. Warren Electronics has all of this stuff in stock.

First of all, you probably have TOO much signal which is overloading your HDTV.
Powered antenna and Preamps are not helping this situation.

I thought this might be the case too. But when i tested last night I noticed that 3 of the 5 channels I do get come in ~30% better with the powered antenna over the roof antenna or the rabbit ears.

Then reconnect the coax downlead and connect the "shorting" plug onto the antenna end of the cable and see if the coax is leaking.
(You might need an RF Splitter to adapt the connectors).

I understood everything you said except this above portion. I just don't follow how I am supposed to hook it up. What indications will show me that the coax is leaking?

Second thing is to try reducing the signal strength going into your HDTV by inserting a R-S 15-678 Variable RF Attenuator and see if tweaking it will help:

I will try this out this weekend.

If you have to use an indoor antenna, you might want to try the highly acclaimed Silver Sensor or Terk HDTVi equivalent which adds Rabbit Ears for VHF.
Note you might need to order something else for free shipping:

Unfortunatly I have already bought and tried the Terk HDTVi antenna with the same results as everything else.
Other antennas to consider for either outdoor or indoor use are the Antennas Direct DB-2, DB-4, the WG PR4400 and CM-4221 (in increasing order of desirability).
These are bigger and uglier, but maybe you can hide them behind a chair or in a closet.
I may have to look into these. I do not have the option for a roof antenna because of cost and our roof really doesn't have much that can hold it.
I will try out the things that I understood this weekend and post my results later.
Thank you for your help so far. I hope your suggestions work.

Hi Fat2020 -- try a Channel Master 4228 first. Mount it inside your attic with a piece of PVC pipe that is attached to the highest peak under the roof where the trussus's meet. Use a quality RG-6 coax cable and be sure to ground it. Use your receiver signal strength meter to align and to the transmitter tower. Tilt it a little as well such as 5 to 10 degrees. If you do not receive the signal well, try a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. Warren Electronics has all of this stuff in stock.

Thank you - bt-rtp and sregener. I will try 4228. Since the 4228 comes pre-assembled, how do I get it thru the small opening to the attic?

Thank you - bt-rtp and sregener. I will try 4228. Since the 4228 comes pre-assembled, how do I get it thru the small opening to the attic?

fat2020 -- it will very likely fit through the opening in the ceiling diagonally, assuming it is the standard 24" by 24" size. Also the antenna is very flexible and can be easily disassembled and re-assembled to get it up in the attic. Not a big deal.

Hi All. Here is my situation:

I just got a 37" Syntax LCD with ATSC Input. I live in an apartment in Dunwoody/Atlanta GA, and I am trying to get OTA HD channels. antennaweb says most are 183 degrees south of me, 13 miles away. Unfortunately, that direction puts the rest of the apt. building between me and the HD transmitting stations. Originally, I couldn't get anything on a rabbit ears antenna (not surprising). So, I purchased a Winegard PR4400 antenna, and am able to receive about 15 or 20 digital channels, including all of the networks HD signals (Yeah). The problem: Only one channel... CBS in Atlanta... comes in without interruption. All of the other channels will glitch. Some glitch once every couple of minutes, others every 20 seconds. They all look beautifull... when they are not glitching! There is about 35 feet of cable between the antenna and the receiver. I'd really like to pull in these channels. Will any of these options help? Which one should I try first:

1) a second antenna. Yeah, yeah, I might should have gone with an 8 bay bowtie in the beginning. But the four-bay winegard I purchased *almost does the trick* , so maybe a second combined with this will bring everything in perfectly?

2) a preamp. Preamps don't add what isn't there... would my current situation be helped by a preamp?

3) both.

Thoughts?

Just curious, where are you mounting this antenna at?

I understood everything you said except the shorting plug leakage test portion. I just don't follow how I am supposed to hook it up. What indications will show me that the coax is leaking?

I show two ways to build a shorting plug and perform leakage tests in the picture below:

1. Type F plug with a center wire soldered to sleeve.
Shown shorting out HDTV/STB/Receiver antenna input.

2. Short piece of junk coax with the shield simply wrapped around the center wire.
Shown shorting out antenna end of coax downlead cable.

The purpose of shorting out the input to the HDTV is to see if the strong TV signals are inadvertently leaking into the tuner.
If they are, a service technician may need to address this problem (highly unlikely, but could happen).
Ideally you shouldn't see any picture, esp for digital channels.
However, it is not a problem if you see some weak, snowy analog stations.
One or more watchable channels indicates excessive leakage.

The purpose of shorting out the downlead coax (as close to the antenna as is feasible)
is to see if there is inadvertent leakage via the coax and associated connections.
This is not all that uncommon a problem within several miles of the transmitter
and is one test that will tell you if you need (double or quad) shielded cable.
The HDTV/STB/Receiver (connected to the other end of the coax) should have same indications as first test.

CAUTION: If you are using a Power Insertion Module to supply power to a Preamp,
unplug the AC power to the Power Insertion Module so that it doesn't send voltage up to the short on the coax.
The Preamp should not be in the segment of coax under test.

PS: If you simply want to buy a test plug, R-S makes (P/N ???) a 75-ohm coax terminator plug that will do the job,
similiar to the fol. inexpensive RCA VH134 found at many home improvement stores:
http://www.summitsource.com/product_info.php?ref=1&products_id=5645
These are commonly used to "cap-off" unused coax inputs/outputs, such as on SAT Multiswitches and
Distribution Amplifiers to prevent undesirable signals from leaking in (and the desired signal from leaking out).

Just curious, where are you mounting this antenna at?



LOL. I'm in a tough spot. Here goes: I am in a first floor apartment of a 3 story building. My windows face the opposite direction from the HD transmission. My best reception is in a closet along a wall that faces the outside. The building faces N/S almost exactly, and my station is at 183/184 degrees.... so my shot is through the building. That said, I was able to watch three stations lastnight with only a handful of dropouts.

I hooked up to analog UHF last night. While there are a couple stations with ghosting, most are ghost-free but still glitch... just like in the digital domain. So I have a mostly signal and very slight ghosting problem? An 8 bay bowtie should help both signal and ghosting. It's kind of beside the point. I really want to purchase a MyHD mdp-130. I have analog cable which *should* have the HD stations in QAM. I just wanted to be sure that I had at least one HD source before getting the mdp-130.

LOL. I'm in a tough spot. Here goes: I am in a first floor apartment of a 3 story building. My windows face the opposite direction from the HD transmission. My best reception is in a closet along a wall that faces the outside. The building faces N/S almost exactly, and my station is at 183/184 degrees.... so my shot is through the building. That said, I was able to watch three stations lastnight with only a handful of dropouts.

I hooked up to analog UHF last night. While there are a couple stations with ghosting, most are ghost-free but still glitch... just like in the digital domain. So I have a mostly signal and very slight ghosting problem? An 8 bay bowtie should help both signal and ghosting. It's kind of beside the point. I really want to purchase a MyHD mdp-130. I have analog cable which *should* have the HD stations in QAM. I just wanted to be sure that I had at least one HD source before getting the mdp-130.

You know, for people who live in apartments and condos, it would be nice if the owners of these apartment buildings would (or allow renters to) put up antennas on their buildings so everyone would have access to local OTA tv signals. You shouldn't have to put an antenna in your closet. :D

You know, for people who live in apartments and condos, it would be nice if the owners of these apartment buildings would (or allow renters to) put up antennas on their buildings so everyone would have access to local OTA tv signals. You shouldn't have to put an antenna in your closet. :D
Most buildings have only one signal distribution system, with distribution amplifiers
and multiple output splitters ensuring that every unit gets a reasonable signal.

The owner(s) can decide to pump OTA, CATV or DVB down that existing system.
If you don't like their choice, you'll be looking at trying to get them to either:

1. Change signal sources to OTA (you'll never get your neighbors to give up CATV/DVB).

2. Agree to pay for installion of a second signal distribution system throughout the entire complex (HA!!!!)

3. Pay for your own roof-mounted antenna and coax run to your unit
Could happen, but then several of your neighbors would want to also do the same thing
and over time the roof would look like it was in the '60's.
So rather than let the camel's nose into the tent, you're stuck with an indoor OTA antenna,
or if you're lucky, a DBS dish pointed out a window or on your balcony.

What is my best chance for getting OTA HD if I live on the 2nd floor of a 6-floor building in downtown State College, Pennsylvania (which has lots of mountains around)? The nearest tower (ABC) is about 30 miles away. I have no options for an outdoor antenna. I am restricted to an indoor antenna. Do I have any chance?

I haven't checked out this thread in a while, but after going through the last few pages I've noticed that there have been quite a few people asking about which were the better indoor, set-top type antennas. From my own experiences and others around here in general, along with the Silver Sensor, probably the best results have come from the Radio Shack 15-1880 (which has VHF rabbit ears - it has been discontinued but can still be found in some stores), and also the Radio Shack $15.00 double bowtie (I forget the model no. offhand, but there's only one). Stay away from all those Walmart type RCA's and Philip's - they don't work at all for most people. And that includes the newer, encased Philips Silver Sensor - they're all pretty much junk. Many people have also improved their results with the RS 15-1880 by turning the bowties horizontal rather than vertical.

Thanks for the pics, that's what I have. I assume its performance should be equal to the 3075, so I'm going to reinstall it and see what becomes of the signal of my worst, (PBS), channel.

Well, reinstalled the balun that came with my CM4228, and A VAST IMPROVEMENT in signal. :)

My PBS station went from unwatchable at a signal strength of 14.5 to 16.5 db, ave of 15.3db, to a steady range of 85 to 90db. No other changes other than swapping baluns.

I found the Phillips balun had some rust in it, even with the weather boot, so I wrapped it all in electrical tape after pulling boot over the CM balun/RG6 cable connection as tight as I could.

I've concluded that my HD signal is much worse through my D* HR10-250 than directly to my hp 5880n HD DLP set.

I'm using a CM 4221 antenna with a RS amp then to a two splitter. After that one line goest to my HR10 and the other directly to my TV. Watching the same channel on the Tivo is impossible b/c of signal loss versus' the same channel on the antenna input on the TV. Is this possible? What could I do to fix the Tivo side?

I've concluded that my HD signal is much worse through my D* HR10-250 than directly to my hp 5880n HD DLP set.

I'm using a CM 4221 antenna with a RS amp then to a two splitter. After that one line goest to my HR10 and the other directly to my TV. Watching the same channel on the Tivo is impossible b/c of signal loss versus' the same channel on the antenna input on the TV. Is this possible? What could I do to fix the Tivo side?

Couple of things come to mind. First are the cable lengths to each about the same overall length? If so try reversing the leads at the splitter. You might also try eliminating the splitter all together and hooking the cable directly to the HR10-250 just to test if its a cable loss problem. Also is the RS amp a preamp of just a line amp. Many line amps actualy cause more problems do to high signal to noise figures. Some tunners are more sensative to overdrive than others. The tuner in the TV is most likely a newer generation tuner that handles weak singals or multipath better too.

Couple of things come to mind. First are the cable lengths to each about the same overall length? If so try reversing the leads at the splitter. You might also try eliminating the splitter all together and hooking the cable directly to the HR10-250 just to test if its a cable loss problem. Also is the RS amp a preamp of just a line amp. Many line amps actualy cause more problems do to high signal to noise figures. Some tunners are more sensative to overdrive than others. The tuner in the TV is most likely a newer generation tuner that handles weak singals or multipath better too.

Antenna to signal amplifier is 50' of RG6 then to splitter. Equal lengths (~3') to both HR10 and TV using same RG6 cable from splitter.

I have gone directly to the HR10 from the indoor amp unit and got the same results.

I'm using the Radio Shack signal amplifier 15-2507 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103094&cp=2032057.2032187.2032188.2032195&allCount=24&fbn=Type%2FAmplifiers&f=PAD%2FProduct+Type%2FAmplifiers&fbc=1&parentPage=family)

Antenna to signal amplifier is 50' of RG6 then to splitter. Equal lengths (~3') to both HR10 and TV using same RG6 cable from splitter.

I have gone directly to the HR10 from the indoor amp unit and got the same results.

I'm using the Radio Shack signal amplifier 15-2507 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103094&cp=2032057.2032187.2032188.2032195&allCount=24&fbn=Type%2FAmplifiers&f=PAD%2FProduct+Type%2FAmplifiers&fbc=1&parentPage=family)

Have you tried eliminating the amp all together. My guess is that ratshack amp is doing you more harm than good. If you need to boost your signal because its too week then especialy with digital signals you need to do it at the antenna with a good quality pre-amp. The 4221 antenna is a fairly good moderate to fringe antenna and you should not need a booster amp for one 2 way splitter unless you are using either a long cable from the antenna which you said is only 50ft long or you are using poor grade cable. Most recommend good quad shielded RG-6 coax.
I dont see any mention as to how far you are from your signals nor whether you are using an outdoor installation or an attic installation. Attic mounting is not recomended for fringe reception areas.

Have you tried eliminating the amp all together. My guess is that ratshack amp is doing you more harm than good. If you need to boost your signal because its too week then especialy with digital signals you need to do it at the antenna with a good quality pre-amp. The 4221 antenna is a fairly good moderate to fringe antenna and you should not need a booster amp for one 2 way splitter unless you are using either a long cable from the antenna which you said is only 50ft long or you are using poor grade cable. Most recommend good quad shielded RG-6 coax.
I dont see any mention as to how far you are from your signals nor whether you are using an outdoor installation or an attic installation. Attic mounting is not recomended for fringe reception areas.

Was attic mount until yesterday when I put it up on a 25' mast outside. I haven't eliminated the RS amp but can tomorrow and see what happens. The channel I'm having the most problem with is 58 miles away in New Orleans. I'm on the Gulf Coast and its pretty free of obstructions since it's over water mainly. But, remember, I get the channel fine directly to the TV its just a problem going through the Tivo receiver.

I've concluded that my HD signal is much worse through my D* HR10-250 than directly to my hp 5880n HD DLP set.

I'm using a CM 4221 antenna with a RS amp then to a two splitter. After that one line goest to my HR10 and the other directly to my TV. Watching the same channel on the Tivo is impossible b/c of signal loss versus' the same channel on the antenna input on the TV. Is this possible? What could I do to fix the Tivo side?

could be a bad tuner. I tried just this thing recently. I couldn't get in 2 'bad' stations with either HDtivo or my hitachi. but could get the same ones on both machines.

So if your HDtivo is much worse, even using the same exact cable, then it's probably the hdtivo.

Watching the same channel on the Tivo is impossible b/c of signal loss versus' the same channel on the antenna input on the TV. Is this possible? What could I do to fix the Tivo side?

The HDTivo has a lot of problems with "hot" signals - it overloads more readily than other tuners. Since the station you're after is probably weak, that means the HDTivo is being overloaded by other signals. You could try a Channel Master Jointenna for channel 58 - it would mean switching wires (I use a TV/Game swith in my setup) for everything else, but it might work.

I'd try removing the amplifier first. Radio Shack amps aren't doing you any favors.

I think I know the answer but I'll just put the question out there ....

what is the best solution to a bad multipath problem?

(Terrain: hilly, forest nearby, townhouses; antenna: SilverSensor; preamp: channelmaster 7777; tuner: Dish 811)
a directional antenna or a circular polarized directional antenna would even be better.

Some of you have assisted me in my latest problem with trying to figure out why my D*HR10 seems to receive a weak signal while a direct connection from my antenna gives me a better signal in post #3800 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6875924&&#post6875924) above.

Now here is my real underlying problem....trying to pickup numerous stations from 131 degrees apart. I believe that if I can solve this then maybe I won't notice the poor quality signal from the Tivo unit.

Current setup:
Local zip: 39560 with low terrain and many pine trees
New Orleans zip: 70458 for me line of sight is mainly over water and good.
CM 4221 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=3&CAT=&PROD=SCM4221A) I went with this because of reports that the 4228 had a narrower field.
Outside mount on a 25' mast
Radio Shack 15-2507 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103094&cp=2032057.2032187.2032188.2032195&allCount=24&fbn=Type%2FAmplifiers&f=PAD%2FProduct+Type%2FAmplifiers&fbc=1&parentPage=family) I have the outside amp mounted 12" below 4221 and of course the inside amp installed just before a two-way splitter.
RG6 cable all the way. Equal lengths (~3') from splitter to HR10 and TV and only 12" from inside amp to splitter. Removing the splitter makes no difference in signal quality.

Looking at the attached image you'll see that I currently have the antenna pointed at about 290 degrees. In this position I can pickup all the channels from both directions (all of UHF) however I get signal drop pretty frequently that makes it impossible to watch at times. If I turn the attenna to the direction I need I get perfect signals (85%+) versus the 55-60% I get in the "half-way" point from both directions.

There are 4 signals from New Orleans (with more on the way) and three from the local area. I could just aim for New Orleans and leave it but then I lose my local station which I need for local news and weather. If I aim only for local area then I only get ABC, PBS, and a poor FOX affliate that I could care less about.

What would you recommend for my situation? Is there another antenna that I could try to use that would accomplish getting all the available signals from this wide range? Or do aim for New Orleans where the majority of the signals are (or will be) and then use something else to aim for my one local station that I need?

Thank you.

http://www.bowellville.com/images/antenna.jpg

What would you recommend for my situation? Is there another antenna that I could try to use that would accomplish getting all the available signals from this wide range? Or do aim for New Orleans where the majority of the signals are (or will be) and then use something else to aim for my one local station that I need?

It sounds like you have one local signal you want, and the rest are distant and in the same direction. No good antenna is going to cover 130 degrees, so you're either looking at a rotor or a combination of antennas.

Channel Master makes a product called a Jointenna that would be perfect for your situation. They have one channel-specific input (get it for the channel you want) and another, "everything else" input. Then get a second antenna to aim at the local station (brand and type are unimportant as long as they receive the station you want.) Hook it all up and you're done.

Now, if you want to get even fancier, you could run a second line of coax down to your "head end" and insert the local channel (using the Jointenna) *after* the amplifer's indoor unit does its thing. Then you don't boost the local signal too high, but get the amplification of the more distant signals. Or, if you want a true A/B solution, Radio Shack makes a remote-controlled switch (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049643&cp=&kw=remote+ab&parentPage=search) that would let you select between the two coaxial inputs. The A/B solution would be great if you wanted more than one station from your local market, even if it isn't perfect for recording.

It sounds like you have one local signal you want, and the rest are distant and in the same direction. No good antenna is going to cover 130 degrees, so you're either looking at a rotor or a combination of antennas.

Channel Master makes a product called a Jointenna that would be perfect for your situation.

Rotor is out. I record too much on various channels.

So if I go with the jointenna I'll need another antenna. Would I be better off getting the longer range CM 4228 and point towards New Orleans since it is further and I know the 4221 will pick it up. Then use my existing 4221 with a jointenna and point towards my local stations which are less than 30 miles away. Heck the 4221 has a better signal to my local ABC laying flat on the ground than it does in the air! Weird.

Also, do I pick the jointenna that is specific for the HD frequency? WLOX is channel 13 but has a HD frequency of 39 which is 13-1. That would be a 0585-2 from CM which covers UHF 30-49.

Speaking of multiple directions, does anyone have any first hand experience with the Sylvania "Smart Antenna"? At various distances, perhaps? It is a promising concept, but there is very little to be found on the net about it in the way of reviews.

I'm looking into UHF/VHF antennas for OTA HD, and according to antennaweb, for my particular location, I'll need a medium outdoor rooftop directional antenna. However, these things are banned by our neighborhood association.

Therefore I'm wondering about the feasibility of putting such an antenna in my attic crawlspace (this is a 2-story house, BTW). WILL THIS WORK? :confused: I'm quite handy with tools, so I'm confident I can get the actual work done... but I'm clueless about TV reception. Do these outdoor antennas need free open air? Or will it still receive signals through the roof joists? (Note: we don't have thermal insulation.) I do realize that I'll have to remove/shorten the mast.

:confused:

No experience with it. Electronically directable antennas have been around for a long time. This is the first one I know of for consumer TV use that uses a microprocessor to make the decisions on how to tune it. One downside is that you have to use a STB that is designed to work with such antennas. The STB decides whether the signal is as good as it can get and sends commands to the smart antenna to optimize it if not. The other downside is that this particular one is an indoor antenna AFAIK.

The DX DTA-5000 Smart Antenna is intended for outdoor use.
It is an evolution of the earlier models intended for RV and boat use.

Here is my definitive review, where it was about as effective as a 4-Bay antenna:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5979741&highlight=6900DTE#post5979741

Note that I found that the Dolby Digital (Optical/Coax) output on the Sylvania 6900DTE OTA STB
was somehow incompatible with my Sony STR-DE835 Surround Receiver.
It works okay with my new Pioneer Receiver after they "fixed" it.

1) However, these things are banned by our neighborhood association.

2) Therefore I'm wondering about the feasibility of putting such an antenna in my attic crawlspace (this is a 2-story house, BTW). WILL THIS WORK?

1. Unless you live in a historical area, that ban is illegal, unenforcable, and a violation of your constitutional rights as interpretted by the courts and the FCC. See here: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

2. Maybe. Attics are not good, costing you an average of 88% of the signal you'd get if you didn't have a roof in the way. However, in strong signal areas, or if your roof is more "transparent" to radio signals than most, it might work just fine.

Rather than ruffle feathers, I'd buy an antenna you can fit in your attic and try it. But if it doesn't work, print out a copy of that web page and show it to anyone who complains about your shiny new rooftop antenna.

I'm looking into UHF/VHF antennas for OTA HD, and according to antennaweb, for my particular location, I'll need a medium outdoor rooftop directional antenna. However, these things are banned by our neighborhood association.

Therefore I'm wondering about the feasibility of putting such an antenna in my attic crawlspace (this is a 2-story house, BTW). WILL THIS WORK? :confused: I'm quite handy with tools, so I'm confident I can get the actual work done... but I'm clueless about TV reception. Do these outdoor antennas need free open air? Or will it still receive signals through the roof joists? (Note: we don't have thermal insulation.) I do realize that I'll have to remove/shorten the mast.

:confused:
Many people hide their antennas in the attic, since the higher you go the better the signal.
At various locations in the U.S., attic loss has been measured at about 13 dB +/- 7 dB,
so it's significant and varies a lot with location within the attic.
Hawaii is no doubt at the bottom of this scale.
You also get more multipath problems in the attic than roof-mounted.

Only way to know if it will work at your location is to do a trial run...

=========================================
BTW: There are legal guidelines for what a homeowner assoc can and can not do to restrict outdoor antenna placement.
You can erect a (short) ugly antenna as long as it is on property that either you own or you control access to (balcony, patio) for condos and apts:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

IT'S THE LAW...

You can erect a (short) ugly antenna as long as it is on property that either you own or you control access to (balcony, patio) for condos and apts:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

IT'S THE LAW...

There is no restriction on the size of the antenna you can install for terrestrial reception such as from OTA television broadcasts. Generally speaking, though, you should keep it within 12' of the peak of your roof.

Now here is my real underlying problem....trying to pickup numerous stations from 131 degrees apart. I believe that if I can solve this then maybe I won't notice the poor quality signal from the Tivo unit.

There are 4 signals from New Orleans (with more on the way) and three from the local area. I could just aim for New Orleans and leave it but then I lose my local station which I need for local news and weather. If I aim only for local area then I only get ABC, PBS, and a poor FOX affliate that I could care less about.

What would you recommend for my situation?


I'd try an all channel antenna such as a Chanel Master 3019 aimed at New Orleans and reaim your existing antenna at WXXV-DT, WLOX-DT and WMAH-DT. Next I'd buy three jointennas tuned to channels 16, 39, and 48 plus a three way splitter. Split the local stations to three jointennas (Two if you don't really care about FOX, WXXV-DT) and add those signals to the New Orleans antenna. If you need a preamp for New Orleans, put it before the jointennas. No rotator needed!

Jointennas cost $29.35 at: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm

Note that the all channel antenna is needed to get WYES-DT on channel 11. If you don't want WYES, two UHF antennas would work. This is designed to receive the three local digital stations plus most of the New Orleans digital and analog signals.

I'd try an all channel antenna such as a Chanel Master 3019 aimed at New Orleans and reaim your existing antenna at WXXV-DT, WLOX-DT and WMAH-DT. Next I'd buy three jointennas tuned to channels 16, 39, and 48 plus a three way splitter. Split the local stations to three jointennas (Two if you don't really care about FOX, WXXV-DT) and add those signals to the New Orleans antenna. If you need a preamp for New Orleans, put it before the jointennas. No rotator needed!

Jointennas cost $29.35 at: http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm

Note that the all channel antenna is needed to get WYES-DT on channel 11. If you don't want WYES, two UHF antennas would work. This is designed to receive the three local digital stations plus most of the New Orleans digital and analog signals.

Thanks for the input. WYES is not important so I wouldn't need the 3019 so I would probably go for the 4228 instead for distance just in case. I understand most of what you said except for "and add those signals to the New Orleans antenna. " How do I "add" these?

Thanks for the input. WYES is not important so I wouldn't need the 3019 so I would probably go for the 4228 instead for distance just in case. I understand most of what you said except for "and add those signals to the New Orleans antenna. " How do I "add" these?

Here's a picture of two Jointennas posted by "TotallyPreWired" several days ago. In your case the 4 and 9 antennas would be your 4221 and a splitter. The all channel antenna would be the New Orleans 4228. I'd put your preamp on the 4228 before the Jointennas. I have my Jointenna in the attic, out of the weather.

http://www.panelcrafters.net/join-tenna-3.jpg

You could put up the 4228 and try to add the two antennas together in a splitter used backwards before you buy the Jointennas.

Here's a picture of two Jointennas posted by "TotallyPreWired" several days ago. In your case the 4 and 9 antennas would be your 4221 and a splitter. The all channel antenna would be the New Orleans 4228. I'd put your preamp on the 4228 before the Jointennas. I have my Jointenna in the attic, out of the weather.

http://www.panelcrafters.net/join-tenna-3.jpg

You could put up the 4228 and try to add the two antennas together in a splitter used backwards before you buy the Jointennas.

Gotcha. I might just try the reversed splitter first and see what happens since it is a 2 week wait for a jointenna right now according to Warren Elect.

Just a good quality splitter will do?

Gotcha. I might just try the reversed splitter first and see what happens since it is a 2 week wait for a jointenna right now according to Warren Elect.

Just a good quality splitter will do?

Yes. A splitter used this way will have some loss, but it's worth a try. You may not need the preamp because of the extra gain of the 4228, or the preamp can go after the splitter (adder).

If you put the preamp on the 4228 before the splitter, it may amplify the multipath on your local channels because the 4228 is aimed away from your locals. The function of the jointenna is to eliminate that multipath because it will filter out the local channels from the New Orleans antenna.

There is no restriction on the size of the antenna you can install for terrestrial reception such as from OTA television broadcasts. Generally speaking, though, you should keep it within 12' of the peak of your roof.
Yep, no size restriction. You could even put this up:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/del937.htm

There is an antenna size restriction, but it seems to only apply to satellite dish size:

"The rule applies to video antennas including direct-to-home satellite dishes
that are less than one meter (39.37") in diameter (or of any size in Alaska),
TV antennas, and wireless cable antennas."

So it does not seem to apply to C-Band BUD (Big Useful Dish).

=======================================
While we are on the subject, can someone explain what the fol quote from the FCC OTARD website
(see above) is supposed to mean:

"Q: I want a conventional "stick" antenna to receive a distant over-the air television signal. Does the rule apply to me?
A: No. The rule does not apply to television antennas used to receive a distant signal."

Seems to say that the FCC rule does not apply to tall (how tall??) antenna stalks used for DISTANT signals.
(I think the key word here is DISTANT, cuz TV signals are presumably only intended for local DMA.)

So if I were a Condo owner, could I install a concrete based, free standing,
50-foot roll-up tower in my enclosed patio/garden area???

======================================
PS: The OTARD allows antennas taller than 12-feet above roof-line,
although it allows a homeowner assoc to have a permitting process
to ensure that it is installed safely....and they must make a good faith effort to approve that permit.

While we are on the subject, can someone explain what the fol quote from the FCC OTARD website
(see above) is supposed to mean:

"Q: I want a conventional "stick" antenna to receive a distant over-the air television signal. Does the rule apply to me?
A: No. The rule does not apply to television antennas used to receive a distant signal."

Seems to say that the FCC rule does not apply to tall (how tall??) antenna stalks used for DISTANT signals.
(I think the key word here is DISTANT, cuz TV signals are presumably only intended for local DMA.)
What a can-o-worms.
#1 How does anybody but the user know if it's being used for 'distant' signals? All, but 1 receivable station(repeater at that), is 50+ miles distant to me.
#2 If 'distant' signals are bad, how can they base their 'Significantly Viewed' ruling on those very same 'distant' signals?

If I were restricted to my DMA for OTA, I'd have 1 analog channel to view(and a whole lot of noise - But, a very good selection of that!).

So if I were a Condo owner, could I install a concrete based, free standing,
50-foot roll-up tower in my enclosed patio/garden area???
As long as no one can claim the space above that patio(think 2nd floor condo), and they can't prove that you are watching a station based in Hong Kong, I don't see why not! :eek:
....jc

Do you have a UPS on your amp/preamp? I was just thinking about this today because someone is coming out within a week to move the DB8 up on the roof since the attic has too much signal blocked for reliable channels on 2 of 6 that I want.

Then I got to thinking, If the power goes out, all my electronics except for the antenna are on a ups! So if i'm recording OTA, i'm SOL. I may even have to buy a smaller ups and stick it in the attic...but then again, are they meant for unheated attics? I doubt it. This poses a problem for me now because I dont know how things will be wired after the install.

Therefore, I was going to just have him do a barrel connection where the antenna drops to the ground because in the future I'll be very likely drilling thru my crawlspace (or wire somehow thru my attic) instead of putting the wire around the entire house outside/in breezeway (where no ups is now anyways). But a real pain to do that in winter. (long story)

Do you have a UPS on your amp/preamp?
Nope. Computer stuff only.
Then I got to thinking, If the power goes out, all my electronics except for the antenna are on a ups! So if i'm recording OTA, i'm SOL. I may even have to buy a smaller ups and stick it in the attic...but then again, are they meant for unheated attics? I doubt it. This poses a problem for me now because I dont know how things will be wired after the install.
Where is your power 'injector' for the preamp? Usually it's quite some distance from the antenna, inside the house. Since mine is in the 'computer room', I could easily put it on my UPS. But, I don't have my widescreen on one, so it's not an issue for me! :p

"Q: I want a conventional "stick" antenna to receive a distant over-the air television signal. Does the rule apply to me?
A: No. The rule does not apply to television antennas used to receive a distant signal."

So if I were a Condo owner, could I install a concrete based, free standing,
50-foot roll-up tower in my enclosed patio/garden area???


The rule states that you can only install an antenna large enough to receive your local market stations. The theory goes that you have a constitutional right to watch NBC, but not the constitutional right to pick which affiliate you watch. Now, there is nothing in the rules that say you can't use your antenna for distant signals, only that any justification of the size of the antenna must be for local signals only. So, unless you go to your HOA and say, "I need a bigger antenna so I can watch station XXXX in the next market over," you can pretty much do what you want.

Your condo roofline (indoor, if you're not on the top level) defines your space. You can't exceed that because you are then in a common area.

As for the significantly viewed rule, I'm baffled about it myself. My county (Olmsted, MN) lists a station as significantly viewed - KTTC. But that station is actually *in market* so who cares? Stations I can receive with my antenna but are out of market are not considered significantly viewed. so satellite can't offer them to me. But cable offers some of them (with blackouts of national programming.) Somebody explain that to me.

I may even have to buy a smaller ups and stick it in the attic...but then again, are they meant for unheated attics? I doubt it.

Spot checking an APC for operating temps, it is only designed for 32-104F. That would be trouble for both winter and summer in an attic.

Spot checking an APC for operating temps, it is only designed for 32-104F. That would be trouble for both winter and summer in an attic.

shucks...summer no biggie..attic fan turns on when i adjust the temp down and i could dea....but winter is colder than 32

Nope. Computer stuff only.

Where is your power 'injector' for the preamp? Usually it's quite some distance from the antenna, inside the house. Since mine is in the 'computer room', I could easily put it on my UPS. But, I don't have my widescreen on one, so it's not an issue for me! :p

it's just a leviton amp...sitting in the attic now right under the antenna..and with tivo on UPS, i can get hours of recording w/o the tv on.

As for the significantly viewed rule, I'm baffled about it myself. My county (Olmsted, MN) lists a station as significantly viewed - KTTC. But that station is actually *in market* so who cares? Stations I can receive with my antenna but are out of market are not considered significantly viewed. so satellite can't offer them to me. But cable offers some of them (with blackouts of national programming.) Somebody explain that to me.
sregener,
Significantly viewed is a Nielsen term. It deals with what stations are most watched by the Nielsen families, typically when there are two or more choices for a network on a cable system. Trinity county, a county that no Houston station can reach OTA, was switched to the Houston DMA (Designated Market Area) by Nielsen because the Houston stations were more significantly viewed than the TV stations in the market that they were formerly attached to. The FCC often uses Nielsen's DMAs for rule making that involves consumers.

Bob Chase

sregener,
Significantly viewed is a Nielsen term. It deals with what stations are most watched by the Nielsen families, typically when there are two or more choices for a network on a cable system. Trinity county, a county that no Houston station can reach OTA, was switched to the Houston DMA (Designated Market Area) by Nielsen because the Houston stations were more significantly viewed than the TV stations in the market that they were formerly attached to. The FCC often uses Nielsen's DMAs for rule making that involves consumers.
While Niesen may gather the statistics, I was talking about SHREVA's definition:
Under our rules in effect on April 15, 1976, network affiliates demonstrate significantly viewed status by showing they have at least three percent share of viewing hours in television homes in the community and a net weekly circulation share of at least 25 percent; independent stations must show at least two percent viewing hours and a net weekly circulation of at least five percent.

It is this definition that allows Cable companies & Satellite providers to supply out of DMA stations to a DMA. I stand to receive 3 additional stations when D* implements SV. They are all Denver stations, and I live in the Colorado Springs DMA.
....jc

I am currently using a Samsung SIR-T451 to receive OTA channels. But I still have no luck with channel 11 and the box has very limited adjustments that can be made. Do you think that if i got a different set top box or even a hd capture card that my probrlem may be fixed with certain channels. I imagine that other boxes offer more options or maybe even have better processors for OTA signal. Please let me know if I should buy something else to try out and what you would recommend. I have been looking at the FusionHDTV5 gold card.

Rothgar, I can't offer much advice but I'm so glad to see that someone else is having problems with this receiver and channel 11. Where I'm at, Kennesaw, GA (30152) channel 11 is the only VHF channel. I only have a CM 4221 but every other channel comes in strong. I'm almost convenced that it's the receiver that's the problem. I can get channel 11 at times at 100% and then like clock-work at around 9:30pm the singal drops completely off. I typically turn the receiver on at 8:00pm. I've posted about this issue on here several times but no one ever responds. If been tempted to contact Samsung but have a feeling they are not going to be very cooperative.

I'm in Albany, NY, purchasing my first Plasma, and need to get an antenna for my local HDs. I will be using a Directv HD-DVR receiver, not sure which one yet. According to Antennaweb, I am 11.2 miles from all of my signals, and all of them are at 274 except one which is at 271. Two of the channels are VHF, the rest UHF. I was planning on putting the antenna in my attic. (I am renting a house). It's a two story house. The attic is a full 3rd story with nine foot ceilings. The house faces west. In the attic, there is a window that faces west (the front of the house). That give me a clear line of sight to the signals.

What antenna should I get? Do certain ones only do UHF or do they all do both? Since I have a window am I going to experience signal loss, or should I be okay? The Directv guy is coming next week, should I just try to mount the antenna when he does the dish and run the coax with that? The channel that is at 271 is 11.2 miles away, the others at 274 ar 11.1. Will I be okay or will there be some loss? Also, where can I get a signal strentgh meter, Rat Shack? This forum is great and I appreciate all the responses.

Rothgar, I can't offer much advice but I'm so glad to see that someone else is having problems with this receiver and channel 11. Where I'm at, Kennesaw, GA (30152) channel 11 is the only VHF channel. I only have a CM 4221 but every other channel comes in strong. I'm almost convenced that it's the receiver that's the problem. I can get channel 11 at times at 100% and then like clock-work at around 9:30pm the singal drops completely off. I typically turn the receiver on at 8:00pm. I've posted about this issue on here several times but no one ever responds. If been tempted to contact Samsung but have a feeling they are not going to be very cooperative.

I know it is not everywhere. At the house I used to live (covina, ca) channel 11 was crystal clear. Heck every channel I could think of came in great with not a problem. because you cannot mannually add channels I found myself scanning channels in covina and then bringing the box to my new place in Arcadia, ca. This at least allowed me to check signal on channel 11. I have never been able to receive it OTA in arcadia though.

I think I am going to go ahead and try out the FusionHDTV5 gold lite card and hope that all my sorrows will go away. I need to get this to work before Sunday though because 24 comes back on. Wish me luck and I will post back with my results.

Due to Katrina I have two places to live at now with my HDTV's at one and analog at the other (this one I just get to visit, but it is our new home). I have a VHF/UHF combo antenna and a CM 4228 in the attic for my local stations. Channels 4 & 6 are getting a lot of interference from something. Channel 4 is the worse and sometimes it is unwatchable and then it will clear up for no reason that I can find. I have checked the RF cables to make sure they are not touching any of the electrical wiring. It goes diagonal and from very fast to not moving at all.

Now this morning # 4 was OK, until I turned on the kitchen light. This caused some interference, but it was not the same as the other. I have 2 TV/s connected to my antenna and both of them is affected. One of them has a amp, but the other one does not.

Any ideas????

I'm in Albany, NY, purchasing my first Plasma, and need to get an antenna for my local HDs. I will be using a Directv HD-DVR receiver, not sure which one yet. .

at this moment there is only the HDtivo. Next quarter is supposed to be HD DVR...we shall see

Gang,

Can I use the amp that came with the Squareshooter (SS-2000) with the Channelmaster 4221? If I need a different one I have no problem buying one, but I would hate to be buying the same thing. Thanks!

Gang,

Can I use the amp that came with the Squareshooter (SS-2000) with the Channelmaster 4221? If I need a different one I have no problem buying one, but I would hate to be buying the same thing. Thanks!


That is a bad idea because it will amplify undesirable RF noise with the desired RF signals. This will result in a poor S/N ratio to the receiver and the tuner will struggle.

You need to use a pre-amp mounted near the 4221 antenna to reduce the potential RF noise from being amplified. It is just the right way to do it.

Cool - I will order a CM 7777 from a site sponsor then.

Due to Katrina I have two places to live at now with my HDTV's at one and analog at the other (this one I just get to visit, but it is our new home). I have a VHF/UHF combo antenna and a CM 4228 in the attic for my local stations. Channels 4 & 6 are getting a lot of interference from something. Channel 4 is the worse and sometimes it is unwatchable and then it will clear up for no reason that I can find. I have checked the RF cables to make sure they are not touching any of the electrical wiring. It goes diagonal and from very fast to not moving at all.

Now this morning # 4 was OK, until I turned on the kitchen light. This caused some interference, but it was not the same as the other. I have 2 TV/s connected to my antenna and both of them is affected. One of them has a amp, but the other one does not.

Any ideas????

Wow, it looks like you survived a direct hit!

Diagonal lines indicate interference. It's hard to diagnose without being there. One insidious problem that I have seen is a preamp that is oscillating. The oscillation is coupled from one antenna to another and may even bother the neighbors TV. The only way to be sure, is to watch one TV while you unplug the power supply for the preamp from the AC wall socket.

Other tips on locating interference can be found in an old book issued by the FCC. It can still be found at:
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/interference/tvibook.html

Can I use the amp that came with the Squareshooter (SS-2000) with the Channelmaster 4221? If I need a different one I have no problem buying one, but I would hate to be buying the same thing. Thanks!

No. The amplifier in the SquareShooter is actually in two parts, and one is built into the antenna itself. The indoor unit alone won't do you any good.

As others have suggested, a Channel Master 7777 is a good choice, provided you actually need an amplifier (most people don't!)

Cool - I will order a CM 7777 from a site sponsor then.
The two most important things about a quality pre-amp are that it is low noise and that it has the right gain (low quality pre-amps can do nasty things like oscillate). Channelmaster's 7777 is a very good (low noise) high gain amp. For medium or low gain pre-amps Weingard has some good choices. Your total signal level from all nearby stations determines how much gain is best: Many strong (or one very strong) stations means no pre-amp, a couple of medium strong stations means less gain (10-20dB). No nearby stations means high gain (30dB) can be used. Nearby FM stations need to be included but the amps have FM traps that can help prevent them from being overloaded by radio stations. Note that once you use enough gain to overcome the lead in loss and make the receiver's noise neglegible any more gain will have no positive effect. This is often true with about 20dB of gain.
So my rough guess at pre-amp suggestions would be:

Urban:
No pre-amp

Suburban:
Weingard HDP-269 (combined UHF/VHF) or No pre-amp

Far Suburban:
Weingard AP-8700 (combined UHF/VHF)
or Weingard AP-2870 (separate UHF/VHF)
or Weingard AP-4700 (UHF only) (VHF pass through)

Rural:
Channelmaster CM-7777 (combined or separate UHF/VHF)

Note that you should only need a pre-amp if you are trying to get distant stations

Will an attic mount provide better reception than an indoor?

I setup a Terk HDTVi indoor antenna yesterday and am able to receive every digital channel than I’m interested in (channels listed on antennaweb_dot_org as requiring antenna types yellow-blue). The non-digital channels have a lot of static, but I’m not really concerned as everything I want is in digital. While the channels look great when they are tuned in, I don’t like having this ugly antenna next to my beautiful TV and I find that the antenna is somewhat sensitive. By sensitive I mean that the channels fade in and out if I’m walking in certain parts of the room. I can’t switch to a roof mount because I live in a condo and the association prohibits them. I could mount one in a bucket of cement and place it on my 2nd floor patio, but my wife won’t allow it and it would require a fairly long run of cable (75’). My condo is multi-level and I have a crawlspace/attic. While I’m technically not allowed to put anything up there, I’m sure I can get away with it. I think that I’d prefer to go this route rather than battle with the association and wave the FCC Fact Sheet on Placement of Antennas in their face.

I understand that placing an antenna in the attic results in a 30%-50% drop in signal strength. The good this is that the max run of the cable will be 25’ since I only need it brought to one jack which is in my upstairs. Will the attic mount result is a signal that is worse than my $39 indoor Terk? I was considering an antenna like the DB4 HDTV from Antennas direct. Does anyone have a better suggestion for receiving channels only 31 miles away and all in the same compass orientation? I will also need to hire someone to install the antenna. Are there any suggestions on finding someone who is experienced with antenna mounting and knows how to point it in the correct direction?

Thanks in advance!

I know it is not everywhere. At the house I used to live (covina, ca) channel 11 was crystal clear. Heck every channel I could think of came in great with not a problem. because you cannot mannually add channels I found myself scanning channels in covina and then bringing the box to my new place in Arcadia, ca. This at least allowed me to check signal on channel 11. I have never been able to receive it OTA in arcadia though.

I think I am going to go ahead and try out the FusionHDTV5 gold lite card and hope that all my sorrows will go away. I need to get this to work before Sunday though because 24 comes back on. Wish me luck and I will post back with my results.

You can manually add channels with the SIR-T451.

Hey guys,

I went looking through the forums and stickys to try to find an answer. The antennae sticky was 127 pages alone!!!

anyways, my question is... i am picking up an LCD LT26HVX today for my room. The main use will be XBOX360 and DVD. Will a HDTV antenna work on this TV or will it not because it doesn't have a built in ATSC tuner.... do I need a TV with an ATSC to do this? (should I wait for the Norcent 26" LCD that will have both tuners built in?)

Thanks!!!

Will an attic mount provide better reception than an indoor?

I understand that placing an antenna in the attic results in a 30%-50% drop in signal strength. Will the attic mount result is a signal that is worse than my $39 indoor Terk? I was considering an antenna like the DB4 HDTV from Antennas direct. Does anyone have a better suggestion for receiving channels only 31 miles away and all in the same compass orientation? I will also need to hire someone to install the antenna. Are there any suggestions on finding someone who is experienced with antenna mounting and knows how to point it in the correct direction?

Okay... First of all, an attic install will usually be better than a TV-top install, because the antenna will be higher and mobile sources of multipath (this includes you walking around the house) are further away. The exception to this is if you have a window that is letting signal through, and your attic has metal between your antenna and the outside world (foil-faced insulation, steel roof, etc) But the 30%-50% loss rule (it's actually much higher) applies to your living room, not just your attic.

So you're getting perfect reception with the Terk in your living room... why not put it in your attic? You don't need more antenna, right? And you already know how to aim it or you wouldn't be getting good reception where it is. To "mount" it, just tie it in place with rope (don't use wire) or place it on a surface where you feel confident it won't move. The only thing you might need a pro for would be to run the cable, and any handyman can do that.

Will a HDTV antenna work on this TV or will it not because it doesn't have a built in ATSC tuner.... do I need a TV with an ATSC to do this? (should I wait for the Norcent 26" LCD that will have both tuners built in?)

For an HD-Ready set like yours, you'd need an external tuner box (STB) to receive HD through an antenna. See the HDTV Hardware forum for lots of tips and advice about which to buy. Used ones can be had for $100 or so.

Hey guys,

I went looking through the forums and stickys to try to find an answer. The antennae sticky was 127 pages alone!!!

anyways, my question is... i am picking up an LCD LT26HVX today for my room. The main use will be XBOX360 and DVD. Will a HDTV antenna work on this TV or will it not because it doesn't have a built in ATSC tuner.... do I need a TV with an ATSC to do this? (should I wait for the Norcent 26" LCD that will have both tuners built in?)

Thanks!!!
You are correct, the ($700-800) Olevia LT26HVX only receives analog NTSC stations, since it does not have an ATSC Decoder:
http://secure.syntaxgroups.com/news/pdf/sales_sheet_26hvx.pdf
To receive ATSC, you would have to buy an external OTA STB, such as the $90 R-S HTS-6000 (good luck trying to locate one)
or one of several others available in the $200 range.

Since this small size has not yet met the ATSC tuner mandate, only a few have an integrated ATSC tuner, such as the following:
SAMSUNG LNR269D ($1200)
Sharp AQUOS LC-26D4U ($1200) also CableCARD ready
Sharp AQUOS LC-26D6U ($1200) also CableCARD ready

Yes, if you wait, LCD prices are said to be headed downward...

I've been experiencing some major headaches tuning in channels with my Radio Shack 15-1880 (connected to a home-built Windows MCE 2005 box I'm using as the receiver). The antenna is on the windowsill of my 2nd floor apartment in New York's East Village, which faces NE onto an airshaft. I point the antenna NW toward the Empire State Building (from which most local stations broadcast in HD via the "combiner") to draw in stations, and I can usually get WCBS, WNBC, WABC, WWOR and WPIX...but the thing is, I can never get them all at the same time. If I move the antenna around into a position where it picks up WNBC, I lose WPIX and WWOR. One day, WPIX may be coming in fine, but the next, I have to move the antenna around again (either scooting it side to side or rotating it) to bring the station back in. I'd love to be able to find a spot where I can get everything and leave the antenna alone and have it *just work*.

Two questions:
1) Could height be a bigger help, reception-wise, than proximity to the window? The windowsill is about 4' off the ground, but I could easily put the antenna on top of a 7' cabinet that is next to the window, though the antenna would no longer be right by it.

2) The antenna's gain is turned up to the max, because it's been difficult to get WNBC otherwise. I've heard that sometimes a lower gain can be better because there can sometimes be conflicts between high gain and a strong signal. Would lower gain + a better position help where WNBC is concerned?

This is a real pain because I want to be able to record programs on different channels while I'm out, but now have to choose between one or the other (ie between Smallville and The Office tonight) because of not being able to recieve everything at the same time. Any tips on how to handle the situation would be greatly appreciated.

Okay... First of all, an attic install will usually be better than a TV-top install, because the antenna will be higher and mobile sources of multipath (this includes you walking around the house) are further away. The exception to this is if you have a window that is letting signal through, and your attic has metal between your antenna and the outside world (foil-faced insulation, steel roof, etc) But the 30%-50% loss rule (it's actually much higher) applies to your living room, not just your attic.

So you're getting perfect reception with the Terk in your living room... why not put it in your attic? You don't need more antenna, right? And you already know how to aim it or you wouldn't be getting good reception where it is. To "mount" it, just tie it in place with rope (don't use wire) or place it on a surface where you feel confident it won't move. The only thing you might need a pro for would be to run the cable, and any handyman can do that.

The TV and antenna are currently on the second floor. The antenna is facing toward the opposite wall which has two standard sized windows. The attic is really just a crawl space with the insulation on the floor of the attic and nothing on the roof but wood and roofing. I guess I could just use the existing terk up there but I was thinking that a full fledged antenna would be better. What about something simple like the Model: U-75R at Radio Shack? I could still return the Terk and pocket the difference.

The last thing I'd want to have to do is go up there and adjust it. I just have this fear of putting my foot through the ceiling of my bedroom.

I've been experiencing some major headaches tuning in channels with my Radio Shack 15-1880 (connected to a home-built Windows MCE 2005 box I'm using as the receiver).

Hmmm. Awful antenna. Having major headaches. Shocker.

Take it back, get your money back, and get a "real" antenna like the Zenith Silver Sensor. It will likely solve a lot of your problems.

I guess I could just use the existing terk up there but I was thinking that a full fledged antenna would be better. What about something simple like the Model: U-75R at Radio Shack? I could still return the Terk and pocket the difference.

Well, given that the Terk works so well, I'd guess you won't have too much trouble with just about any conventional antenna design, like the Radio Shack U75. If you're intent on replacing your current antenna, I'd lean towards the bowtie models, though, because they do much better in attics than yagis (which is what the U75 is.) The Channel Master 4221 (4-bay bowtie) is an excellent choice.

stacking 4228 help

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The way I am going to try it is two equal lengths of coax coming off each baulms into two 7777 amps, run two coax cables "RG6' into the house, then into the power supplies, than combine them at that point, then from there into the TV. What were the best results you have had on spacing each antennas? I have them with each bow tie at equal lengths. I had to over lap the screens to do this. what do you think. How important is the spacing of each antennas?
Thank You
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stacking 4228 help

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...
What were the best results you have had on spacing each antennas? I have them with each bow tie at equal lengths. I had to over lap the screens to do this. what do you think. How important is the spacing of each antennas?
Thank You
__________________
Horizontal stacking adds nulls to the beampattern including ones in each side of the mainlobe which narrows it. The more widely spaced the stack the closer to the peak the nulls move so wider stacks have narrower mainlobes and higher first sidelobes. Too close of stacking can do other things because if the bowties get too close they affect each other. A typical stack of two 4228 would be with their screens just touching but I would think the spacing you have would be a good wideband choice with reasonably low first side lobes. I would need to model the stack with NEC to be certain though. If one nearby station is causing problems and you only need to point the stack in a single direction it can be helpful to be able to adjust the stack spacing to optimize the nulling of the problem path.

Hopefully I got the forum right this time...

OK--first post, Bear with me on this. Just upgraded from SD to HD via DirecTV so I have the 5LNB dish. Yes, I now have HD locals via the dish giving me CBS, NBC, ABC and FOX.

However, one of the things the Mrs. has been carping about since we switched from cable to DirecTV a two years ago was that the Weather Channel no longer recognizes us as being Chicago area for their local segments, meaning we get the whole country's forecast (I swear she could watch that channel all day just to see the radar and forecasts).

So one of the things I thought I'd be getting with my upgrade to HD would be the multicast locals--the stuff like 5.1, 5.2, 5.whatever that people have said would provide 24 hour local weather. I don't get that with my current configuration.

So my question for you all is this: Will I get what I'm looking for by dropping the 50 bucks or so to get an indoor OTA in terms of the locals (hey, I'll get WGN-TV as well for HD Sox games and the Mrs loves their 9PM news)?

Secondarily, I'm looking for a couple of recommendations on antennae. I took a look at this one at Radio Shack yesterday and it looked really sleek--I'm looking for something that will be able to be seen in the room as opposed to mounted in the attic: Radio Shack model 15-1892 (looks like the radar jammer on top of a stealth plane or something).

Has anyone any experience with the above one?

Thanks for taking a moment to look at my mess of questions.

Noots

You can manually add channels with the SIR-T451.

I have been unable to find how to manually add channels in the manual and online. Please do explain. I am able to delete channels once they are autotuned and am also able to add them back if they have previously been deleted. But a channel that does not auto-tune I cannot find how/where to add it.

I know I can add, for example 7-0, but I cannot add 7-1, 7-2, 7-3 etc. because the box only tunes to the *-0 channel when you punch in the channel number manually.

Hopefully I got the forum right this time...

OK--first post, Bear with me on this. Just upgraded from SD to HD via DirecTV so I have the 5LNB dish. Yes, I now have HD locals via the dish giving me CBS, NBC, ABC and FOX.

However, one of the things the Mrs. has been carping about since we switched from cable to DirecTV a two years ago was that the Weather Channel no longer recognizes us as being Chicago area for their local segments, meaning we get the whole country's forecast (I swear she could watch that channel all day just to see the radar and forecasts).

So one of the things I thought I'd be getting with my upgrade to HD would be the multicast locals--the stuff like 5.1, 5.2, 5.whatever that people have said would provide 24 hour local weather. I don't get that with my current configuration.

So my question for you all is this: Will I get what I'm looking for by dropping the 50 bucks or so to get an indoor OTA in terms of the locals (hey, I'll get WGN-TV as well for HD Sox games and the Mrs loves their 9PM news)?

Secondarily, I'm looking for a couple of recommendations on antennae. I took a look at this one at Radio Shack yesterday and it looked really sleek--I'm looking for something that will be able to be seen in the room as opposed to mounted in the attic: Radio Shack model 15-1892 (looks like the radar jammer on top of a stealth plane or something).

Has anyone any experience with the above one?

Thanks for taking a moment to look at my mess of questions.

Noots

Let us know how far from the local transmitter towers you are and someone can give you a recommendation on a antenna. Also, to answer one of your questions, Directv doesn't broadcast the multicast stations like .2, .3, just the main station. If you local stations broadcast multicast stations then you will get them via antenna. Me personally I don't like multicast. It takes away from picture quality. I don't mind it as much on 720p stations as bad as 1080i because 720p is a little more tolerant of lower bandwidth. NBC from one of the DMA's I pick up broadcast "The Tube" which I'm glad they do.

I have been unable to find how to manually add channels in the manual and online. Please do explain. I am able to delete channels once they are autotuned and am also able to add them back if they have previously been deleted. But a channel that does not auto-tune I cannot find how/where to add it.

I know I can add, for example 7-0, but I cannot add 7-1, 7-2, 7-3 etc. because the box only tunes to the *-0 channel when you punch in the channel number manually.

Right, if the receiver doesn't pick up the broadcast you can't add it.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

I'm in the Western suburbs and am 20 miles to Sears Tower and John Hancock, where the signals come from.

What's the effect of fog on OTA? I'm 40 miles out with a DB8 and 125 ft run. Paid someone to put the antenna 10 ft up on the chimney this morning. Fox is 2 degrees off but all other stations are the same direction. However it appeared even though it was on the roof, I couldn't get in ch 64 and 67 in the high 80s like i did in the attic. My guess is the chimney was 5 ft to the right of the original spot inside and i guess that made the difference. But i didnt' want the hassle of a tripod.

Anyway, after over 1 hour of struggling aiming the antenna 1 millimeter at a time, and trying a pre amp from the guy (turns out my regular amp was better anyways), I've now gotten fox to be solid mid 60s and channel 67 and 64 seem to be solid 68ish or 72 ish. If everything stays as is, i'll be thrilled as I can record solid 60 signals. But I was wondering if the dense fog helped or hurt the aiming this morning? If all the channels die tonight after the fog is gone, i'll scream lol.

Not the fog per se, but the radiational temperature inversion the helped produce the fog might have some effect.

I found that it is best to do antenna installs in the mid-afternoon, which usually provides the "worst case" conditions.

FYI - The Television DX'ing is great the past two days. Do a channel surf and you will find many new channels.

By the way, does anyone have the website address which identifies when the DX'ing is good? I know the link was on this website, but I do not recall where.

Thanks....

Not the fog per se, but the radiational temperature inversion the helped produce the fog might have some effect.

I found that it is best to do antenna installs in the mid-afternoon, which usually provides the "worst case" conditions.

wow those are big words...does that mean the conditions were bad in all that dense fog or good?

"Could be either good or bad," he said cryptically. :)

*Generally*, inversions tend to improve distant reception as they allow the signal to skip along the ground ... "Locals" can go either way

By the way, does anyone have the website address which identifies when the DX'ing is good? I know the link was on this website, but I do not recall where.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~dxinfo/tropo.html

Update on my attempt (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6880778&&#post6880778) at using both a CM 4221 and 4228 to receive channels from two different directions.

It really doesn't work.

I have the new 4228 mounted on a 25' mast outside and a use a RS15-2507 amplifier (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103094&cp=2032057.2032187.2032188.2032195&allCount=24&fbn=Type%2FAmplifiers&f=PAD%2FProduct+Type%2FAmplifiers&fbc=1&parentPage=family) and it is aimed at the furtherest location which is New Orleans and I receive those channels great. I'm using splitter in reverse and I do lose some db but not that much.

The 4221 is in the attic and pointed to my local stations. The signal jumps from high to low continueously. If I remove the amplifier from the 4228 the 4221 signal stays steady but the distance channels on the 4228 are barely visable. So I have to have the amp to pick them up.

So in the end I guess my problem is multipath and I'll just have to use a jointenna to accoomplish what I need. No great $ loss since it only cost me a $6 splitter.

Hmmm. Awful antenna. Having major headaches. Shocker.

Take it back, get your money back, and get a "real" antenna like the Zenith Silver Sensor. It will likely solve a lot of your problems.

I used to own a Silver Sensor, but returned it to Amazon because I was having similar problems. This was in the summer of 1994, before the "combiner" transmitter at the Empire State Building went online. I'd hoped that with the combiner in place, the antenna wouldn't make much difference...and I searched this thread and found quite a few endorsements of the 15-1880 here (another factor is that it isn't as "deep" and therefore is easier to stick on the windowsill.

I'm less than 3km as the crow flies from the ESB, where all the local HD channels (except PBS and Fox) originate. Since they're all coming from the same place, I'm confused as to why I can't (for example) get NBC and the WB at the same time.

In any event, it's too late to return the antenna to Radio Shack, since I bought it back in October.

I used to own a Silver Sensor, but returned it to Amazon because I was having similar problems. This was in the summer of 1994, before the "combiner" transmitter at the Empire State Building went online. I'd hoped that with the combiner in place, the antenna wouldn't make much difference...and I searched this thread and found quite a few endorsements of the 15-1880 here (another factor is that it isn't as "deep" and therefore is easier to stick on the windowsill.

I'm less than 3km as the crow flies from the ESB, where all the local HD channels (except PBS and Fox) originate. Since they're all coming from the same place, I'm confused as to why I can't (for example) get NBC and the WB at the same time.

In any event, it's too late to return the antenna to Radio Shack, since I bought it back in October. Have you tried rotating the inner bowties to a horizontal position rather that at the vertical position in which they usually come? It made 100% difference for me and has worked for some others here, too.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

I'm in the Western suburbs and am 20 miles to Sears Tower and John Hancock, where the signals come from. 20 miles is not far at all if you have a clear line of sight towards the towers and preferably some height to your antenna placement. Not sure what antenna that is, but if it's the one shaped like a bullet with both ends pointed, I've never really heard much about it. The Silver Sensor, Radio Shack 15-1880 and the Radio Shack $15.00 double bowtie have all gotten decent results across the board. Just a thought - if the thing you are mainly interested in is the local weather, but you have no luck receiving the TV stations, there's always one of those cheap weather radios like they sell at stores like Radio Shack that run the continually updated National Weather Service area broadcasts 24/7. Or better yet get yourself a radio scanner, as they receive those also. (It can be pretty fun and interesting knowing what's going on "behind the scenes" in your neighborhood!)

wow those are big words...does that mean the conditions were bad in all that dense fog or good?

Actually, the best DX'ing is in the fog. It is like putting the signal thru a pipe. I have witnessed incredible television reception during these events!

Update on my attempt (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6880778&&#post6880778) at using both a CM 4221 and 4228 to receive channels from two different directions.

It really doesn't work.

I have the new 4228 mounted on a 25' mast outside and a use a RS15-2507 amplifier (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103094&cp=2032057.2032187.2032188.2032195&allCount=24&fbn=Type%2FAmplifiers&f=PAD%2FProduct+Type%2FAmplifiers&fbc=1&parentPage=family) and it is aimed at the furtherest location which is New Orleans and I receive those channels great. I'm using splitter in reverse and I do lose some db but not that much.

The 4221 is in the attic and pointed to my local stations. The signal jumps from high to low continueously. If I remove the amplifier from the 4228 the 4221 signal stays steady but the distance channels on the 4228 are barely visable. So I have to have the amp to pick them up.

So in the end I guess my problem is multipath and I'll just have to use a jointenna to accoomplish what I need. No great $ loss since it only cost me a $6 splitter.

I just realize something....if using two antennas and trying to pickup one station causes problems then how is the jointenna going to help? Since the jointenna is made to the frequency I need then wouldn't the problem continue? Maybe I'm just putting to much into this and should just do it.

I just realize something....if using two antennas and trying to pickup one station causes problems then how is the jointenna going to help? Since the jointenna is made to the frequency I need then wouldn't the problem continue? Maybe I'm just putting to much into this and should just do it.

The Jointenna sucks out the ghosty signal from the antenna that is aimed in the wrong direction and replaces it with the clear signal from the antenna that is aimed in the correct direction.

Update on my attempt (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6880778&&#post6880778) at using both a CM 4221 and 4228 to receive channels from two different directions.

It really doesn't work.

The 4221 is in the attic and pointed to my local stations. The signal jumps from high to low continueously. If I remove the amplifier from the 4228 the 4221 signal stays steady but the distance channels on the 4228 are barely visable. So I have to have the amp to pick them up.

So in the end I guess my problem is multipath and I'll just have to use a jointenna to accoomplish what I need. No great $ loss since it only cost me a $6 splitter.

By installing the 4221 in the attic, you have attenuated the signal of the local channels. That makes the ghosty signal from the amplified 4228 even stronger than the clean signal of the 4221. It might work with the 4221 on top of the house instead of in the attic.

I just realize something....if using two antennas and trying to pickup one station causes problems then how is the jointenna going to help? Since the jointenna is made to the frequency I need then wouldn't the problem continue? Maybe I'm just putting to much into this and should just do it.

Each input of the Jointenna has a set of filters on it. On one input, the filter permits (in theory) only one channel, and filters out everything else. (In practice, the filter isn't that precise, so it lets in a few channels on either side of the desired channel, too.) The other input filters out the frequency permitted by the other input and allows everything else.

If it were a computer program, it would look like this:

INPUT1 - IF channel=x THEN passthru ELSE block
INPUT2 - IF channel=x THEN block ELSE passthru

x = the channel the Jointenna is tuned to.

By installing the 4221 in the attic, you have attenuated the signal of the local channels. That makes the ghosty signal from the amplified 4228 even stronger than the clean signal of the 4221. It might work with the 4221 on top of the house instead of in the attic.

I'll second the roof as well. Just mounted the DB8 on a 10ft pole on the chimney. In the attic i was getting high 80s signals (and did fluctuate downward 10 sometimes) for upper uhf but never got in channel 42, which was important to me. Now on the roof, since channel 42 is 2 degrees off, i still had to make a compromise, but the upper uhfs are still recording fine at a signal in the 60s and i now have a signal in the 60s for channel 42 also. I'm pretty sure it's because it's a stable signal due to the roof mounting. If i made the same adjustment in the attic, no way would there be a steady signal.

So it's true that a 'clean' low steady signal is better than a 'multipath ridden' higher signal, at least in my case.

I had to open my mouth and curse myself. It all went to heck this afternoon.

Note I want WB/UPN so waiting for the HDdvr doesn't help me right now.

local installer ($60 per hour) that I hired to put the DB8 that I previously bought on the chimney won't be back in the office until Monday so I wanted my options before then. I had it in the attic but couldn't get in fox (uhf 42) because it was 2 degrees off. I figured if I got 75-90 in the attic on the other nets, (except 54), that on the chimney would be a good compromise to get in fox because in theory the signal is stronger outside right?

Well after much fiddling, we got it to where ch 42/54/64/67 were all pretty solid 60-70. Thing is, even when he was fiddling outside, i never got 64/67 to as good a signal as I had in the attic. I guess this was more of a big deal than I thought at the time. Does it sound reasonable that because the chimney was actually 6-8 ft away from the site in my attic, that it may be the reason I never got in a good signal outside? I'm assuming the antenna is perfectly plumb but of course I have no way of telling. He did seem to take great care when he did the chimney mount.

So overnight we had a very bad thunder storm. however this morning all the channels were the same as yesterday. Then this afternoon the winds and rains kicked up and the channels were all unwatchable during the storm (going from zero up to 70 wildly). Even now that it's calmed down, i can't get back in ch 67 but the others are relatively ok. I'm assuming this means the antenna moved. I didn't think up high on a 10 ft pole was very stable but he assured me it was rock solid. Obviously this isn't true.

So i have to think of my options and it's frustrating

1. tell him the antenna moved and make them somehow shore it up. I'd assume they would have to do this free/reduced cost since it obviously moved. However the problem I have this this option is even at the time of install, i only got low 70s for a high signal when inside i was getting 80s. So this may be foolish to try and solidify an antenna in this relatively poor position.

2. maybe lower the antenna on the 10ft pole down a few feet to make it more stable? Or is this pointless given my 'weak' signals of 60-70?

3. I'm assuming you can do a tripod mount on the peak of any roof. (didn't ask him but i'd assume they can do that). I could have him stand near the spot where I had the good signals inside and try to find a good signal and I'd assume they should be the same/stronger on the roof at that point. Then we can determine how ch 42 will come in at that point. I'd assume they would do this as they are the pros and i dont see how else you could tell a good signal. Also if they can't get in all 6 networks, I may as well put the antenna back inside away from the elements.

4. try to lower the antenna for more stability and just aim for channel 42 then put another antenna back in the attic and get another antenna (though I know it's a 2 week wait for a jointenna unless I can do something like a reverse splitter? Of course then there's the cost for another antenna plus 30 for the jointenna. And now i'm really paranoid about outside mounts not being stable.

5. ask them what antenna they have for my area (I know the like wineguard) and ask him to do a test of it on the chimney mount.


I already spent 200 on friday. I dont know how much more I want to put into this. I definitely have to have him back here, even if just to take the antenna down, as I dont climb on roofs. My gut says have him use a tripod and at least try to move the antenna to a point where the signal is at least as strong as inside and get the antenna as low to the roof as possible to minimize wind problems. I guess the 6 ft to the one side made a big difference.

I know it is not everywhere. At the house I used to live (covina, ca) channel 11 was crystal clear. Heck every channel I could think of came in great with not a problem. because you cannot mannually add channels I found myself scanning channels in covina and then bringing the box to my new place in Arcadia, ca. This at least allowed me to check signal on channel 11. I have never been able to receive it OTA in arcadia though.

I think I am going to go ahead and try out the FusionHDTV5 gold lite card and hope that all my sorrows will go away. I need to get this to work before Sunday though because 24 comes back on. Wish me luck and I will post back with my results.

Well I bought the FusionHDTV5 gold plus card and I am still working with it but at the very least this card get amazing reception with QAM channels. I have any channel I could want through QAM. I could not get fox OTA yet but my antenna is not in it's usual spot. I will try a couple of things and post back.

At the very least though, this card is much more reliable than the SIR-T451 and I can use multiple peices of software to try the OTA. Mediaportal seems to keep crashing and the fusion software is ok. I am going to try Got All Media and a couple others to see if that changes anything.

Well guys....guess what? I did something unusual today. Went to a local salvage store that had a water damaged Radio Shack stock. Found one of the same antenna amp that I had previously purchased and am using on the CH 4228. For 40% off $60 I said to myself what the heck let me give it a try on the weird acting 4221 that I've been using for my locals.

Got home, hooked it up and all my channels from both antennas are performing flawlessly! I'm so happy and it didn't set me back too much money. I'm getting New Orleans to the SW and my locals to the NNE all with a 80-95% signal. Now don't get me wrong the weather is very clear and calm tonight so who knows if this stroke of luck will last. I only hope it does.

Once New Orleans gets all of its HD channels back online this year I could potentially have 8 HD networks from 10 HD channels.

I hope that I didn't just curse myself.

So I've proven that a reversed splitter does work for bring in two antennas. Will it last? We'll see.

Thanks to all that provided great advice and support.

I had it in the attic but couldn't get in fox (uhf 42) because it was 2 degrees off.
You seem fixated on 2 degrees in multiple posts as if it makes a major difference in signal strength. I don't think it does. Here is a plot of DB8 performance:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html

According to that graph you can be +/- 7.5 degrees before losing even 1 dB of signal. But that's a computer simulation so who knows how well it matches reality. There are other antenna hints on that site.

I don't think 2 degrees makes much of a difference on any TV antenna you can buy. But that's just theory, so YMMV.

You seem fixated on 2 degrees in multiple posts as if it makes a major difference in signal strength. I don't think it does. Here is a plot of DB8 performance:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB8.html

According to that graph you can be +/- 7.5 degrees before losing even 1 dB of signal. But that's a computer simulation so who knows how well it matches reality. There are other antenna hints on that site.

I don't think 2 degrees makes much of a difference on any TV antenna you can buy. But that's just theory, so YMMV.

I guess maybe overall it's probably that the tower is only 161 high and 305 power vs 350 height and 500 power on the other stations.

Also, in the attic, aiming for ch42 brought that up to signal in the 60s, but did kill the other channels (notably 54 64 67). So i assumed it was the 2 degrees thats the problem. But i guess with a low tower, it's really a power thing

the more i think about this, the chimney is a bad idea. IF he couldn't get the high 80s signal that i got inside, while it was on the chimney, i should have realized something is wrong and made him do something else like a tripod further over on the roof above where it was inside the attic. I think i have a tunnel i'm shooting through the more i think about it. if he can't find the 80s signal on the roof, i'll just have to move it inside and give up fox

Also i've been told a jointenna wont even help me in this situation since it's only 2 degrees apart.

I see nothing in newposter's post to indicate that the installer did anything less than a competent job. I have installed a thousand broadcast antennas and I have never checked to see that they are perfectly plumb, and I don't even use any kind of a compass to see where they are pointed. Broadcast TV antennas do not have the same tight, uniform reception characteristics as do parabolic satellite antennas, and frequently, in harsh multipath situations, an antenna will perform better on certain stations when aimed slightly off-target.

A customer who furnishes his own antenna is not a valuable customer, because the installer makes less money on that job than on one in which he also sells the antenna. Don't be surprised of this installer declines to return, since he may be concerned that a dissatisfied customer might not want to pay for the return visit.

Google brought this up on the 4257.Likely a precursor to the 4248 with similar specs.

Edit: Upon closer scrutiny of that pic of the 4257,it has 5 or 6 more director bays than the 4248.This was the largest corner reflector made by Channel Master.It probably has a little more gain on the upper channels (60 and above) which may have been needed years ago.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:oXZRqacvCu0J:www.weisd.com/store2/CM%25204257.html+channelmaster+4257&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Provided everything with this 15 yr old install is working as good as it did when new,I doubt it will help that much to change to a different UHF antenna-unless you go all-out(see below post).However,with 15 yrs on the twinlead and connection points,there's a chance it's not performing as well as it did when new.Also,if the coax from the preamp is that old,it may need to be changed out too.

You didn't mention reception on ch20 and 50.I suspect local DT-19 and DT-49 are bleeding over snow on these channels.
I have the gain and curve charts for both the ch.master 4250 6ft parabolic and the 4251 7 ft parabolic. if anyone needs a copy faxed or needs the info e-mail me at :rwantsat@verizon. B.T.W. we are currenty redesigning the channel master 6 ft antenna to bring back into production. I suspect that we will sell many of these as i've seen nothing in my 25 years in the antenna business that can compare to a parabolic for directivity, fto b ratio or overall gain!

I see nothing in newposter's post to indicate that the installer did anything less than a competent job. I have installed a thousand broadcast antennas and I have never checked to see that they are perfectly plumb, and I don't even use any kind of a compass to see where they are pointed. Broadcast TV antennas do not have the same tight, uniform reception characteristics as do parabolic satellite antennas, and frequently, in harsh multipath situations, an antenna will perform better on certain stations when aimed slightly off-target.

A customer who furnishes his own antenna is not a valuable customer, because the installer makes less money on that job than on one in which he also sells the antenna. Don't be surprised of this installer declines to return, since he may be concerned that a dissatisfied customer might not want to pay for the return visit.

HURRAY HURRAY: i am an installer as well and having 25 years or better at antennas sort of makes me an expert. 2 degres isnt going to make jack of difference. Now if you were using a uhf parabolic as i do you can see some nulls at a 2 degree difference,but no way with a db-8. they're beamwidth is to wide to begin with. wondering if you had an open view (no trees) when in attic but when raised you ran into some obstruction in the path. that would be more likley. or possibly a poor piece of coax? Also dont forget that anything but a FSM is just a relative reading Meters on STB's are not much only for reference. Here in Wny if the cust has an antenna and no rotor we take our fsm and try to max it out on the channels wanted. This does not always take into consideration Multipath problems. Its always best to consult with a EXPERIENCED antenna installer who knows your area. I can tell a person what they need just by asking them where they live. In some cases a multibay works best ,but many times we'll use a winegard yagi and get netter results.
Rich Wertman\
R.W. antenna svce Inc

I have the gain and curve charts for both the ch.master 4250 6ft parabolic and the 4251 7 ft parabolic. if anyone needs a copy faxed or needs the info e-mail me at :rwantsat@verizon. B.T.W. we are currenty redesigning the channel master 6 ft antenna to bring back into production. I suspect that we will sell many of these as i've seen nothing in my 25 years in the antenna business that can compare to a parabolic for directivity, fto b ratio or overall gain!

It is good to here the positive feedback about the CM parabolics. As a owner of both the 4251 and the 4257 Diamond Quantum, I feel that these are the best UHF antennas made!

To briefly focus on the 4257, the constuction of this antenna is flawless. I have had this erected for 15 years and cannot say anything negative. The gain of this antenna is the "best" around for a yagi. This is 115" in length and has a gain of 13.8dB at Channel 60. These "older" CM antennas are bulit very well.

Here are the 4257 specs.

Ch F/B ratio (db)

14 20
19 19
27 20
35 18
44 20
52 17
60 15
69 11

For example, in reviewing the Antenna's Direct 91XG, we have rated this as an "underperformer." The construction of the antenna is POOR. The unit which we observed had a rear deflector that was already showing small area of rust. (brand new out of the box) The balun is located in such a poor area, that you have to perform a 180 degree turn on the cable to "run" it along the bottom of the antenna. This is not only an eyesore, but degrades the antennas GAIN, as blocking the signal.

In comparison to the 4257, the elements are stainless steel construction and the entire boom is one long piece, whereas the 91XG is 4 seperate pieces. The 4257 antenna has prooven itself in the field, whereas the 91XG, is a newbie to this market. On another note, the 4257, has a compartment on the rear of the antenna which houses the balun in a weatherproof housing.

After fully revewing the 91XG, it was decided NOT to use it due the exterior rusting on the black reflector, poor assembly & reflector design, and lastly the placement of the balun.

At this point, we decided to upgrade the CM00264 - 300ohm dual input amplier to the CM7777. This in turn required the replacment of the "old" 300 ohm cable from the antennas to the amplifier.

I would recommend replacing the amplifier every 15 years, as new techynology is better. Switching from the Spartan to the Titan was well worth the $60.00.

On the VHF note, I am using the CM 3610. This is the baby to have for the serious DXer's. With a length of 147" and a gain of 11.6dB on channel 13, I have not been able to find another antenna on the market that is bulit as well, or that can perform like this.

In conclusion, you just cannot beat the older CM products! These newer yagi antenna's do NOT have the reliability and contruction of these. I was going to replace both of the CM antennas with new ones, however, I was unable to find something that was better in performance or construction.

Many people are swearing by the 91XG, 4228, etc... however, when you have a 3610 & a 4257 funneled into a Titan 7777 pre-amp at 62 feet in the air, I am viewing stations up to 110 miles in digital. Analog signals are ranging from 115 - 140 miles that can be watched 24/7. Again, this is line of sight, and this is where the gain and amplifier are needed.

[about the Samsung SIR-T451]

I have been unable to find how to manually add channels in the manual and online.

While you're not in any of the menus, and none of the on-screen displays is visible (just a blank screen or a picture from another station) enter the channel number that the desired station actually broadcasts its digital signal on, not the channel number that the station is usually known by. For example, my "channel 7" actually broadcasts its digital signal on channel 53, so if I needed to add that station manually I would have to enter 53 not 7. If the receiver manages to lock onto the signal, it picks up the PSIP data, and the little on-screen display then changes from "53-0" to "7-1" plus the callsign. From that point on I can tune it as channel 7. But the first time I try to tune it, it has to be 53.

After you've entered the digital channel number, if the receiver doesn't lock onto the signal, you can call up the signal strength meter in the menus to see if you're getting anything at all, and use the meter to guide you as you move the antenna around to try to improve things.

...i've seen nothing in my 25 years in the antenna business that can compare to a parabolic for directivity, fto b ratio or overall gain!

Just out of curiosity, what is the front-to-back ratio of the CM parabolics? I haven't been able to find the published specs anywhere.

I need some help! I appreciate any info anyone can give. I am able to get all channels OTA except NBC (very important) and PBS (can deal with this in SD although it would be nice). I believe that I currently have The Winegard PR-8800 8-Bay antenna. Below is my antennaweb information. Please let me know if you have any suggestions. Thank you.

DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
* yellow - uhf WNUV-DT 54.1 WB BALTIMORE MD 357° 17.4 40
* yellow - uhf WJZ-DT 13.1 CBS BALTIMORE MD 357° 17.3 38
* yellow - uhf WMAR-DT 2.1 ABC BALTIMORE MD 357° 17.3 52
* yellow - uhf WMPT-DT 22.1 PBS ANNAPOLIS MD 209° 5.8 42
* yellow - uhf WBAL-DT 11.1 NBC BALTIMORE MD 357° 17.3 59
* yellow - uhf WBFF-DT 45.1 FOX BALTIMORE MD 357° 17.4 46

I need some help! I appreciate any info anyone can give. I am able to get all channels OTA except NBC (very important) and PBS (can deal with this in SD although it would be nice).

The PBS station is probably giving you problems because it is so radically in a different direction from the others.

The stacked bowties don't do well above channel 50, especially the Winegard. That said, at 17 miles it should do the job. Have you made sure the aim is precise? With increased frequency, precise aiming becomes much more important. I'd fiddle with the aim, but if that doesn't work, you might have better luck with a yagi like the PR9022.

The PBS station is probably giving you problems because it is so radically in a different direction from the others.

The stacked bowties don't do well above channel 50, especially the Winegard. That said, at 17 miles it should do the job. Have you made sure the aim is precise? With increased frequency, precise aiming becomes much more important. I'd fiddle with the aim, but if that doesn't work, you might have better luck with a yagi like the PR9022.


Thank you for your quick response! Are there any tools to help with aiming the antenna (i.e. signal strength meters, etc.)? If so any suggestions? Also, would a amp/preamp help or hurt my situation (or any other tools)?

I need some help! I appreciate any info anyone can give. I am able to get all channels OTA except NBC (very important) and PBS (can deal with this in SD although it would be nice). I believe that I currently have The Winegard PR-8800 8-Bay antenna. Please let me know if you have any suggestions. Thank you.


Is the antenna on the roof? (If not, consider moving it there.)
Did you aim the antenna while looking at the signal strength for NBC? (If not, do so. Your TV or set top box should have a built in display.)
There's no terrain in the way toward Earleigh Heights.
Are there buildings in the way? (If so, try relocating the antenna to miss them.)
To get PBS you'll need a rotator or another antenna aimed there and a way to add it to your other antenna. The best way is an antenna adder called a Jointenna. You'll need one tuned to channel 42.

Rotors are a hastle as they take time and won't interoperate well with a DVR.

Is the antenna on the roof? (If not, consider moving it there.)
Did you aim the antenna while looking at the signal strength for NBC? (If not, do so. Your TV or set top box should have a built in display.)
There's no terrain in the way toward Earleigh Heights.
Are there buildings in the way? (If so, try relocating the antenna to miss them.)
To get PBS you'll need a rotator or another antenna aimed there and a way to add it to your other antenna. The best way is an antenna adder called a Jointenna. You'll need one tuned to channel 42.

Rotors are a hastle as they take time and won't interoperate well with a DVR.

Thank you for your help again. My antenna is attached to my D* dish on the roof. As far as I know there are no buildings in the way (residential neighborhood). I did not install the antenna, a D* installer did this work. I (obviously) am not knowledgable in this area so I am a little hesitant to try to move the antenna, but I may have to when it gets a little warmer. I was hoping maybe a pre-amp or amp might help (I could easily install this on my own). I tried a FM trap and that did not help.

I was hoping maybe a pre-amp or amp might help (I could easily install this on my own). I tried a FM trap and that did not help.

Preamps and amps are going to cause you serious problems - you're too close, and the signals are too strong. You'll just overload the amp, ruining reception.

Without knowing more about your problem, the only thing I can suggest is a variable attenuator from Radio Shack. It probably won't work, but it has a chance, and you can easily return it if it doesn't help.

wondering if you had an open view (no trees) when in attic but when raised you ran into some obstruction in the path. that would be more likley. or possibly a poor piece of coax? Also dont forget that anything but a FSM is just a relative reading Meters on STB's are not much only for reference. Here in Wny if the cust has an antenna and no rotor we take our fsm and try to max it out on the channels wanted. This does not always take into consideration Multipath problems. Its always best to consult with a EXPERIENCED antenna installer who knows your area. I can tell a person what they need just by asking them where they live. In some cases a multibay works best ,but many times we'll use a winegard yagi and get netter results.
Rich Wertman\
R.W. antenna svce Inc

You hit the nail on the head. 6 ft made the difference inside, so DUH...why didn't i think it made a difference outside? This would have saved me trouble. Though it's my fault for telling him to blindly put it on the chimney, I was now thinking if he knew I had 80s on the inside, he in theory should have been trying to get the same 80s signal outside at least at some point in the rotation. But i'm not worried about blame now

I'm convinced I have a tunnel between the neighbors house and an unknown thing not in sight. (he said he saw nothing). So he simply must walk along the whole roof to find the best signal, I dont think there is another way to do it.

Also i did ask him what they use and he said he uses 8 bay winegards. Looks pretty much like the DB8 if i'm thinking right. His shop is on the other side of the county, even further from philly, so i'm pretty sure they are used to distance problems.

And as far as supplying my own antenna, i had it for months in the attic but now that i want fox, it has to go outside. heck i dont care how he does it, what he uses, as long as it works. period. Only requirement is no rotor.

A customer who furnishes his own antenna is not a valuable customer, because the installer makes less money on that job than on one in which he also sells the antenna. Don't be surprised of this installer declines to return, since he may be concerned that a dissatisfied customer might not want to pay for the return visit.

just for the record, he can do anything he wants (except mounting a 50ft tower lol) including put up his own antenna, i dont care

i just want the signals perfect! I'm not cheap but i expect the job done right. So next time i'll be sure to fully inform him of all the parameters i want. :)

What splitter/combiner provides very good performance and is of high quality ?

Are the Pico Macom's pretty good ? Are there any others that have tested well ?

I'm not interested in the $100 Lindsay unit -- yet :)

- bt-rtp

Big time newbie to this and I appreciate the responses I got from the couple of posts I put up here the other day.

I finally put the stealth bomber looking thing up last night. 20 miles from downtown, in the western chicago suburbs. It's on the main floor of my home, around 6 ft off the ground. Plenty of houses and trees between us and the city (I can't see the Chicago skyline from there, but between the antenna and the outside of my house is a huge set of sliding glass doors leading out to the deck/back yard. Stucco ceiling, however, which I hear can cause problems for some antennae. This thing has 10 or 12 antenna direction settings and 3 gain settings (maybe I'll figure out how to use them, LOL). I attached the coax from the antenna out of the 15-1892 to the antenna in of my D**TV receiver, go through the online menus in D**TV and voila! Loads of additional channels, dropped right into my program guide. I never even messed with the direction of the antenna or anything.

I'm extremely new to this, and know I can go back and check each individual channel to see the signal strength and tinker to optimize each per the antenna directional settings. As is, most of them came in crystal clear and well over 80, in fact, channel 9 WGN-TV which is important for me (Sox, Cubs, Bulls) was in the middle 90s. I must have missed the place to program in my zip code, which is probably why the program guide incorporated the channels where they belong but only says something like "regular program" or something next to the D**TV stuff...is that right, or is that all it's gonna say there?

Now, the Mrs sees it, and thinks we're being invaded. So I did a little test. I shoved it into the top shelf of the entertainment unit, which has a partially clear, partially frosted glass door on it...it still delivers crystal clear picture. I feel like the dad from Christmas Story when he gets his "major award."

Tonight I'm going to monkey around with different antenna direction settings and gain settings. I had it on only 1 for the gain last night. This thing also has presets, so I should be able to save the antenna settings for each channel, if it turns out I need to do that. However, seeing as how I'm really only going after either the John Hancock Bldg or Sears Tower, their location from me is in the same general direction and I'm figuring this is not likely to make much of a difference with each setting. We shall see...

Thanks again for all the help guys.

Noots
PS (figures, now that I have this set up, the Bears season is over)

these changing readings will drive me nuts :)

ch power
26 92
32 92
42 71-76
54 65-70
64 89-92
67 89-92

Maybe the wind 'knocked' it in place after all. Hopefully it storms more so I can see if it's stable

Noots - that's good news to hear. Remember - the Winter Olympics are right around the corner! And then, I'm guessing that they'll be showing some of the World Baseball Classic tournament (with the Major Leaguers) in HD - then, it's on to hopefully another great White Sox season!

I came across this wonderful document. Is a list of TV stations, their current digital and analog channels and the channel they have chosen to use for their digital broadcast when analog is turned off.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2649A2.pdf

link corrected

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_publi...-05-2649A2.pdf

Your link got truncated. Should be: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2649A2.pdf

(In case that doesn't work...
edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2649A2.pdf is the end of it.

Noots - that's good news to hear. Remember - the Winter Olympics are right around the corner! And then, I'm guessing that they'll be showing some of the World Baseball Classic tournament (with the Major Leaguers) in HD - then, it's on to hopefully another great White Sox season!

Thanks. So I came home tonight connected up the antenna after putting it in the top cabinet of the ent. center and it's all g-to-g. The only thing I've really missed out on is the off air WBBM, because I cannot extend the antennae whilst it's in the ent. ctr. But that's not biggie, since it's only the one VHF channel, and D**TV delivers that one in HD just fine anyway.

So I went back into my menus and resolved the other questions I had in terms of
A. entering my zip code so I can have my program guide updated. Done.
B. reprogrammed my D**TV remote because the installation guy didn't bother to pgm the channel input so I could change from video 6 to whatever (less reliant on my actual tv remote)
C. Tinkered with my signal strengths vs gain and antenna direction. I believe it's set on channel 3, direction 7, gain 2 (no, I have no idea what it means, only that it works!). I'm extremely pleased with the results and the SS. I'm getting a SS of between 90 and 100 on all of the important chicago locals. I think the only one that's in the 80s is one of those odd channels like 20 or something like that.

Regarding the Olympics, someone told me that there might be some off air broadcasts that differ from the standard broadcasts, perhaps different events that you can only pick up via he antenna?

Noots

Haven't heard anything on that yet. That would be nice. The channel you're probably getting the lower signal on, I'll bet, is 26. I get all the channels at 40 miles out (indoor antenna!) at about 85 - 90%, except that one (3, actually) at a little under 70%. But it's steady.

Regarding the Olympics, someone told me that there might be some off air broadcasts that differ from the standard broadcasts, perhaps different events that you can only pick up via the antenna?

Noots
Here is NBC Press Release that says NBC-HD will be simulcast of analog NBC:
http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/5083321/detail.html
Some programs will not be in HD, even though they are on an HD channel...not enough HD Cameras to go around....

Here is the detailed event-by-event Olympic schedule, including which channel they are on:
http://www.nbccableinfo.com/insidenbccable/pdf/olympics/programs/schedule.pdf

and enter your zipcode into the NBC Olympic website for local channel info:
http://www.nbcolympics.com/index.html

On 1Feb, Dish plans to activate ESPN2-HD and UNIV-HD....which may also be activation date for many cable systems...
So you're gonna need sat or cable and at LEAST one HD-DVR to keep up....
And replacement eyeballs...

After reading and asking some questions about what antenna to get, I thought I would first try an indoor antenna before I get the Channel Master 4228. I got the silver sensor and was very happy that I got all the local DTV channels and more. I have the following questions:

1. A few channels has white speck the size of a pixel spread about 1 inch apart in the bottom half of the screen. What is the cause and how do I fix it?

2. Currently the RG6 cable from the silver sensor goes directly to my TV, but I also want the cable connected to my PC. Should I split the signal or should I get another silver sensor?

3. It seems I get all the channels that I need from the silver sensor except a few channels with white speck as I said above, do I still need the CM 4228? What other benefits will I get with CM4228?

Thanks in advance.

After reading and asking some questions about what antenna to get, I thought I would first try an indoor antenna before I get the Channel Master 4228. I got the silver sensor and was very happy that I got all the local DTV channels and more. I have the following questions:

1. A few channels has white speck the size of a pixel spread about 1 inch apart in the bottom half of the screen. What is the cause and how do I fix it?

2. Currently the RG6 cable from the silver sensor goes directly to my TV, but I also want the cable connected to my PC. Should I split the signal or should I get another silver sensor?

3. It seems I get all the channels that I need from the silver sensor except a few channels with white speck as I said above, do I still need the CM 4228? What other benefits will I get with CM4228?

Thanks in advance.

The white specks are due to the picture size adjustment being too small, the opposite of "overscan", you have a tiny bit of height underscan. The width might be too small as well, so get a test pattern and adjust both of them.

If you use differnet inputs such as component, DVI or HDMI, then a test pattern from each needs to be used to adjust the size. HDnet provides test patterns every Tuesday morning at 6:00 AM EST. You can record this if you like.

The proper amount of overscan to have varies but 4% to 5% seems to be what is working well for folks.

After reading and asking some questions about what antenna to get, I thought I would first try an indoor antenna before I get the Channel Master 4228. I got the silver sensor and was very happy that I got all the local DTV channels and more. I have the following questions:

1. A few channels has white speck the size of a pixel spread about 1 inch apart in the bottom half of the screen. What is the cause and how do I fix it?

2. Currently the RG6 cable from the silver sensor goes directly to my TV, but I also want the cable connected to my PC. Should I split the signal or should I get another silver sensor?

3. It seems I get all the channels that I need from the silver sensor except a few channels with white speck as I said above, do I still need the CM 4228? What other benefits will I get with CM4228?

Thanks in advance.

Try the 4221 first, it performs better in non-fringe applications.

Your gain from a Silver Sensor is likely fairly low, and it is not expensive, so it might be better to not use a splitter and just buy another.

However, if you go with a 4221, it might provide enough gain to compensate for the 3.5 to 4 db loss of the splitter.

What about more is better?

If one antenna is good, is the added gain of two worth the expense and bother?

Well Todd...No. OK, well, sometimes. Usually not though. Two antennas don't give much additional gain, because you loose signal in the combiner. But it does narrow the beam width considerably, so in cases of severe multi-path, it could help.

The cable TV tower here has four different quad stacks! But that is beyond your average homeowner to install. Most of the time a single antenna is easier to install and will give the best performance overall, on a wide range on channels.

Holy crap, I just totally blew my mind! I got a free DirecTv H10 HDTV receiver a few days ago. I plugged it in just as a goof because:

I am 27.3 miles away from the Los Angeles HDTV broadcast towers
I am on the 5th floor of a 6 floor apartment complex
I am *completely* surrounded by 12 story condominium complexes about 20 feet away from my only windows
I can not see even a sliver of sky or terrain from my windows, only the sides of these 12 story buildings

Long story short: using a crappy Terk indoor HDTV antenna, I am getting all of the Los Angeles HDTV signals at @ 77% - 86% signal strength. WTF? Please tell me this is some sort of anomoly. Otherwise, I am the world's biggest idiot for just assuming HDTV wasn't possible for my current situation for the last 4 years...

Welcome to one of the few benefits of multipath reflections. The signals are obviously finding your antenna by bouncing off of something! :-)

Well Todd...No. OK, well, sometimes. Usually not though. Two antennas don't give much additional gain, because you loose signal in the combiner. But it does narrow the beam width considerably, so in cases of severe multi-path, it could help.

The cable TV tower here has four different quad stacks! But that is beyond your average homeowner to install. Most of the time a single antenna is easier to install and will give the best performance overall, on a wide range on channels.
if you wanna learn about stacking antennas look into moonbounce and the antennas radio amateurs use to bounce their signals off the moon and back to earth. youll never be the same again

What about more is better?

If one antenna is good, is the added gain of two worth the expense and bother?
stacked antennas can add considerably to the signal strength as long as you understand and follow the physics of spaceing and use good coupleing techniques. also you have to consider the added windload in your tower choice.

Well the sides of the buildings that surround me are mostly glass.

if you wanna learn about stacking antennas look into moonbounce and the antennas radio amateurs use to bounce their signals off the moon and back to earth. youll never be the same againYeah, but we're talkin' TV here. :)

Well I bought the FusionHDTV5 gold plus card and I am still working with it but at the very least this card get amazing reception with QAM channels. I have any channel I could want through QAM. I could not get fox OTA yet but my antenna is not in it's usual spot. I will try a couple of things and post back.

At the very least though, this card is much more reliable than the SIR-T451 and I can use multiple peices of software to try the OTA. Mediaportal seems to keep crashing and the fusion software is ok. I am going to try Got All Media and a couple others to see if that changes anything.

I have tested the FusionHDTV5 gold plus card a bit more and here is what I have found. With 3 different peices of software (beyondtv, Media portal, fusionHDTV) I still get the same OTA reception as I did with the SIR-T451. I can run signal checkers with some software and it still shows no reception with the card. Unfortunatly I do not think the SIR-T451 is to blame for not receiving VHF channels like I had originally thought.

the FusionHDTV5 card is better than the SIR-T451 for a few reasons:
1. channel scanning is much faster and you can manually add channels
2. the QAM support of the fusion card is amazing. The SIR-T451 has crap for QAM support even if it claims it supports it.
3. I can record shows in hd for the same price as just watching them (because I had a spare computer that I eisily put the card in and plugged into my tv). (recordings are HUGE. 1hr = 8gig)
4. you can choose your software so you can choose your UI. If you are going to use QAM then you have to use the FusionHDTV software but if all you are using is OTA then just about any free software will work.

overall I am very happy with my switch and can't wait for more support from free software. It also helps with the fact that the SIR-T451 is still selling on ebay for $130-$170 used. I was able to sell that box and spend very little money on the tuner card. Although if you don't have a decent computer to run the card then you will have to spend a bit more money.

All in all. I am very happy with the switch.

Since you put this in the antennas thread, how about telling us how it works with an over the air antenna. John

Your link got truncated. Should be: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2649A2.pdf

(In case that doesn't work...
edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2649A2.pdf is the end of it.


I thought I saw that they were in there second round of channel elections.

Holy crap, I just totally blew my mind! I got a free DirecTv H10 HDTV receiver a few days ago. I plugged it in just as a goof because:

I am 27.3 miles away from the Los Angeles HDTV broadcast towers
I am on the 5th floor of a 6 floor apartment complex
I am *completely* surrounded by 12 story condominium complexes about 20 feet away from my only windows
I can not see even a sliver of sky or terrain from my windows, only the sides of these 12 story buildings

Long story short: using a crappy Terk indoor HDTV antenna, I am getting all of the Los Angeles HDTV signals at @ 77% - 86% signal strength. WTF? Please tell me this is some sort of anomoly. Otherwise, I am the world's biggest idiot for just assuming HDTV wasn't possible for my current situation for the last 4 years...
Probably because it contains a more modern 4th (e.g. LST-4200A)
or possibly 5th generation ATSC Decoder chip
(e.g. LG in DVICO "5 Gold", LG in MPEG4 DirecTV H20, ATI Theater, Zoran)....

It would be of interest to know which manufacturer made your H10:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5083656&highlight=manufacturer#post5083656

Samsung, according to the thread you linked.

I still haven't figured out which ATSC Decoder chip is inside which DirecTV Receiver.
And they probably have tamper-proof seals....

But you may find the fol. laboratory test results of interest:
http://www.crc.ca/en/html/crc/home/research/broadcast/rtnt

The Aug2005 test results for the Samsung is for their so-called "GEMINI"chip.....blows the others away....
Hmmm, I wonder if it's in the H10-200???

The Sep2003 test results for the Zenith PROTOTYPE was probably a precursor to
LG's production 4th (e.g. LST-4200A) and subsequent 5th Gen chips.
The Mar2003 and earlier test results for the LINX (now Micronas) PROTOTYPE was for the mysterious
"CASPER" chip....which may or may not have ever gone into production....

Unfortunately, no test results for Broadcom, Zoran/Orem and ATI (by far the biggest supplier).

I've used the amplified antenna from Radio Shack and its worthless. The simple $8.99 rabbit ears work just as well.

I've got a major problem with my two antennas (4221 & 4228). I've been out-of-town the last three days and during that time had several things set to record on my HD10-250 with the last being 9pm friday night. Upon getting home late saturday night I found that my Tivo nor TV antenna input will show only 1 of my 5 or 6 HD channels. Some being the newbie that I am I'm attempting to eliminate what may be problem.

First off, the closest local that I get comes in around 95% on the 4221 on a good day. Right now that same signal shows 92% using the D* Tivo signal meter. However, the meter shows the frequency assisgnment, channel number but not the call-sign as it has in the past. When I tune to the channel I get nothing! If the TV were not able to receive a station then it would say "weak signal" on a blank screen. In this situation I get a blank screen but not the message. So I think to myself, that the station must be off the air or something. So I go to another station that is distance which I use the 4228 for. I normally would signals strenths in the 70% range here but now they are very low and do not pickup at all. If I attempt to tune the station on the TV I get the "weak signal" message. I've elimated all splitter, amp and readjusted the pole and no change in results.

Here is the kicker....late friday night early saturday morning we had a bad thunderstorm come through that I was told about upon returning home. Could lightening done some sort of damage? What makes it hard to track down is the fact that I get the same results using the Tivo receiver and the built-in TV receiver. Any suggestions on how to troubleshoot?

The local signal appearing in the 92% range but yet not showing has just about assured me that something weird is going on.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Here is how I've got everything setup post a few pages back. link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6923107#post6923107)

Since you put this in the antennas thread, how about telling us how it works with an over the air antenna. John

the card seems to be about the same as the samsung box. The amount of stuff I have control over now was worth the switch. I can check signal with more than one piece of software, I can try different configurations and drivers for better results, etc.

I didn't notice anything profoundly different with the OTA signal though.

Still, not one word about antennas!?

The Aug2005 test results for the Samsung is for their so-called "GEMINI"chip.....blows the others away....
Hmmm, I wonder if it's in the H10-200???


Since it was a prototype, I doubt it's in any receiver yet. If it was, we'd all be raving about it. I know I want one for its signal sensitivity.

I recently bought the Sony 42 LCD (A10) - 5 days old. I'm using an antenna (OTA) for HD and the Pitt vs Denver game was incredible. But the FOX game, Seatle vs Car was good but not as good. What I mean is this, the FXO logo, the line with the score, time, etc was not sharp, but sort of edgy?

I ran diagnostics and found that all my OTA signals are 95-98 % except for FOX, which is 81-84%. I would have thought that would be fine, and would not affect the letters on the score/time line.

My understanding, was that OTA HD would either be there or not, and not affect PQ? Again, the players looked pretty good, and some words looked great (like the super-imposed 1st and 10 they place on the field once it a while).

Any OTA'ers out there have any comments?

Oh, I never watch hockey, but the flyers game on Sat afternoon (NBC I think) was unbelievable also!

I've got a major problem with my two antennas (4221 & 4228). I've been out-of-town the last three days and during that time had several things set to record on my HD10-250 with the last being 9pm friday night. Upon getting home late saturday night I found that my Tivo nor TV antenna input will show only 1 of my 5 or 6 HD channels. Some being the newbie that I am I'm attempting to eliminate what may be problem.

First off, the closest local that I get comes in around 95% on the 4221 on a good day. Right now that same signal shows 92% using the D* Tivo signal meter. However, the meter shows the frequency assisgnment, channel number but not the call-sign as it has in the past. When I tune to the channel I get nothing! If the TV were not able to receive a station then it would say "weak signal" on a blank screen. In this situation I get a blank screen but not the message. So I think to myself, that the station must be off the air or something. So I go to another station that is distance which I use the 4228 for. I normally would signals strenths in the 70% range here but now they are very low and do not pickup at all. If I attempt to tune the station on the TV I get the "weak signal" message. I've elimated all splitter, amp and readjusted the pole and no change in results.

Here is the kicker....late friday night early saturday morning we had a bad thunderstorm come through that I was told about upon returning home. Could lightening done some sort of damage? What makes it hard to track down is the fact that I get the same results using the Tivo receiver and the built-in TV receiver. Any suggestions on how to troubleshoot?

The local signal appearing in the 92% range but yet not showing has just about assured me that something weird is going on.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Here is how I've got everything setup post a few pages back. link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6923107#post6923107)
It sounds like you have a combination of a weak signal on most stations with some form of glitch on the strong one the Tivo refuses to receive with a good meter reading. You could try reseting the receivers plus doing a new full autoscan for stations. To check the antenna see how the analog stations are coming in. I would also post in your local thread to see if anyone else has had similar problems since the storm. In CT the local Fox affiliate WTIC sometimes goofs up the PSIP info which causes many receivers to show a blank picture with a good signal reading.

I recently bought the Sony 42 LCD (A10) - 5 days old. I'm using an antenna (OTA) for HD and the Pitt vs Denver game was incredible. But the FOX game, Seatle vs Car was good but not as good. What I mean is this, the FXO logo, the line with the score, time, etc was not sharp, but sort of edgy?

CBS and NBC use 1080i, which has higher detail that Fox and ABC's 720p. Many have commented that Fox's picture quality is the worst of the bunch. I find the difference to be very obvious.

It's not your received signal strength that is the problem. It's the source.

Question:

I am about to purchase a 4228 for ABC which is about 60 miles away. I am currently placing a silver sensor on the 3rd floor balcony. I can receive CBS and NBS at 100% signal strength and Fox at 70%. All three stations are 30 miles away. I have no signal whatsoever on ABC (35) no matter how do I point the silver sensor.
I know 4228 will help, however, will it be realistic to improve from nothing to watchable (65%) by replacing silver sensor with 4228?
BTW, I know some folks on the other side of the town can receive ABC at 95% with 4228 mounted on mast.

I have an Antennas Direct 42XG (http://www.antennasdirect.com/42XG_television_antenna.html) mounted outside on my sundeck. I live in Fairfax City, Va. (22030) and want to receive NBC, Fox, ABC, CBS, WETA, and WB50 OTA (that's 4, 5, 7, 9, 26, and 50 -- I'd love to get UPN20 but it's signal is too low for now). My AntennaWeb results:

Call Sign Channel Network City Compass Distance Frequency

WRC-DT 4.1 NBC DC 73° 13.8 48
WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX DC 69° 14.3 36
WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC DC 71° 14.2 39
WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS DC 71° 14.2 34
WMPT-DT 22.1 PBS ANNAPOLIS 83° 39.3 42
WETA-DT 26.1 PBS DC 83° 10.1 27
WBDC-DT 50.1 WB DC 73° 17.1 51

Aiming the antenna at approximately 72° I get steady signals on all of the above channels except Fox. That's right, I get a steady, usable signal from WMPT -- nearly 40 miles away! Yet Fox, though it peaks in the mid-80s on the meter of my H10-250 DirecTV HD sat/OTA receiver, it frequently drops so low the signal loses lock. I get macroblocking and loss of sound and picture. My coax run is about 150 ft. and I'm using AntennaDirect's PA-16 (http://www.antennasdirect.com/antenna_amplifier.html) preamp.
The compass orientation of ~72° was chosen because that's where Fox seems to be the steadiest (yet I still get dropouts).
Any ideas? Would a different antenna help? Different amp?
TIA,
Eben

The Fox 36 signal is screwey. Even when my spectrum analyzer shows it to be a few dB stronger than 34 and 39, it usually produces lower "signal strength" numbers as calculated by residential receiver's signal strength meters. Last I knew, it was eliptically polarized, but no one here has ever offered any kind of cogent theory of how that may be beneficial or how one may take advantage of that unusual propagation pattern.

You might as well try Channel Master 4228, 8 bay bowtie. It is inexpensive and sometimes does the trick.

Question:

I am about to purchase a 4228 for ABC which is about 60 miles away. I am currently placing a silver sensor on the 3rd floor balcony. I can receive CBS and NBS at 100% signal strength and Fox at 70%. All three stations are 30 miles away. I have no signal whatsoever on ABC (35) no matter how do I point the silver sensor.
I know 4228 will help, however, will it be realistic to improve from nothing to watchable (65%) by replacing silver sensor with 4228?
BTW, I know some folks on the other side of the town can receive ABC at 95% with 4228 mounted on mast.
Probably not but maybe. It is like realestate it all depends on location. Where I live in CT not a chance, but possible in S Cal. Find your local thread and see how others are doing. John

You might as well try Channel Master 4228, 8 bay bowtie. It is inexpensive and sometimes does the trick.
Who sells this in the D.C. area?

I bought a DB2 and will be mounting it in my attic/crawl space of my two floor condo. So far I have only propped the antenna up against a 2x4 in the very near to the entrance to the attic. I am an end unit on the side closest to where I need to aim the antenna to receive a signal. So far my reception has been fair with only some fade-outs and lacking only one non-important channel. I will be mounting the antenna on a mast (Radio Shack Model: 15-882) but before doing so I wanted to know how important positioning is. My original plan is to mount the mast and antenna where the antenna is currently propped up. This is about 20’ from the roofline. Should I see a benefit in mounting the antenna closer to the roofline even if there are only a few 2x4s in the way?

Thanks in advance!

Mark definitely play around a bit first. In my attic, 6 inches made the difference between unsteady 70s and high 80s signal wise and the DB8 was literally up against the roof and couldn't be moved an inch. But sometimes horizontal is important too. it's honestly different for every single person. So have a temp placement method (post, pipe, etc) and go around and see what's best for you. Heck I had a pole and then tapped in some nails on the rafters and would go around hanging it in different spots using the hole in the pole to hang it by

wish it was a perfect science but it's not.

Who sells this in the D.C. area?

Mark Electronics in Beltsville. About two miles north of exit 25 on I-95. They are open at least untl noon on Saturdays. But I'm not sure they would take it back if you don't like it, because they are more of a commercial supplier than a retailer.

Question:

I am about to purchase a 4228 for ABC which is about 60 miles away. I am currently placing a silver sensor on the 3rd floor balcony. I can receive CBS and NBS at 100% signal strength and Fox at 70%. All three stations are 30 miles away. I have no signal whatsoever on ABC (35) no matter how do I point the silver sensor.
I know 4228 will help, however, will it be realistic to improve from nothing to watchable (65%) by replacing silver sensor with 4228?
BTW, I know some folks on the other side of the town can receive ABC at 95% with 4228 mounted on mast.

What channel is your ABC affiliate broadcasting on? Better yet, your zip code can help someone diagnose your situation.

A 4228 is an excellent UHF only antenna. It turns out that a 4228 does pretty well as a VHF antenna on channel 10, but not so well on other VHF channels. The measurements were posted at:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

The same tests indicate that a Channel Master 3671B would work better on most VHF channels than the 4228.

Silver Sensors are very poor for VHF reception.

I've got a major problem with my two antennas (4221 & 4228).

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Here is how I've got everything setup post a few pages back. link (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6923107#post6923107)

Put that 4221 on the roof and get the proper jointennas.

Tiny update on my DB8 antenna saga for anyone following along. After the guy trying every foot or so on the length of my roof, and even a higher roof, I settled on the original spot over the place in the attic where i got great numbers. I'm definitely shooting between a house and an unseen object in the distance. The installer was pretty flabbergasted how just a foot made a huge difference.

So now that I was 6ft away from the chimney, using a tripod and 5 ft pole instead of a 10ft on the chimney, I'm pretty confident the high winds wont bug this mount again. CH 64/67 are in the 80s. Ch42 is a solid 71. Wb 54 is a somewhat solid 68. Of course cbs/upn are 90 since they are in the lower UHF.

In my case, higher wasn't always better. A foot horizontally made the difference between 10-15 on the signal meter. I spend 400 in labor etc getting it this far so hope they kill ch 54 and move the programs down to 32. Then I'd be set. Or if they even put CW on directv I'd be ok if the signal was as good as OTA (not likely though)

[QUOTE=Tower Guy]What channel is your ABC affiliate broadcasting on? Better yet, your zip code can help someone diagnose your situation.

I think it is on channel 34. My zip code is 24060. Thanks.

...so hope they kill ch 54 and move the programs down to 32.

Channels above 51 are not in the digital core spectrum and will not be available for television broadcasting after the analog shutdown.

Channels above 51 are not in the digital core spectrum and will not be available for television broadcasting after the analog shutdown.

That is a good thing since most of the common UHF antannas that people are using do not perform well above the mid 50's channels anyway.

I hate those orange, triple-beam, yagi, euro-trash antennas. :)

[QUOTE=Tower Guy]What channel is your ABC affiliate broadcasting on? Better yet, your zip code can help someone diagnose your situation.

I think it is on channel 34. My zip code is 24060. Thanks.

There is significant terrain between you and both Lynchburg, VA and Winston-Salen, NC. If DTV reception can work at all, the 4228 is the right antenna to try. I'd aim toward whichever ABC station is not blocked from your balcony.

Be careful with a preamp, the local stations are only 15 miles away and could overload it. Your short feedline minimizes most of the advantages of a preamp.

Channels above 51 are not in the digital core spectrum and will not be available for television broadcasting after the analog shutdown.

Yup, I even posted that fcc chart a bit ago showing assignments, but was talking short term like the end of this year. WB is iffy now for me but upn is great power.

Please help. Quick question.

I am about 15 miles away from the TV stations and live in a flat area with no obstacles. However, I have to put my antenna in the attic.

Also, I was looking at antennaweb.org and they recommend a medium-directional antenna. All the transmitters in Des Moines are located in the same place +/- 2 degrees.

Just need to know which antenna to buy. Please help.

Thanks.

dlbeck,
A CM 4221 should work nicely, if all your channels are UHF.

Yes, all my channels are UHF. Thanks.

RCA ANT301 (Cant post links yet I guess...)

Avoid this stinker. I was barely able to get 40-50 signal strength on the closest towers and the signal was unwatchable. Returned unit


FWIW, I am using this antenna right now, and it works great. I live in Fremont, CA and picked it up at Walgreens for $19.99. I just got the Zenith Silver Sensor today from Amazon, and it was working great, but I accidently broke it when I was moving it around. Luckily I had picked up the ANT301 the other day and when I plugged it in it worked without a hitch and I can pick up most stations really well. I have to rotate the knob to get KGO (ABC) to come in, but other than that, it's picks up almost everything else in the area without a problem. The one station that is problematic is KTEH, the PBS station in San Jose.

[QUOTE=A2D]

There is significant terrain between you and both Lynchburg, VA and Winston-Salen, NC. If DTV reception can work at all, the 4228 is the right antenna to try. I'd aim toward whichever ABC station is not blocked from your balcony.


I pulled trigger and ordered 4228.
I did some homework last night, driving my car with computers on it. I found that a open space only about 300 yards from my building. When I pointed the silver sensor to the right direction, I can get over 90% on Fox and 50-60% on ABC. My balcony is face south. When I placed silver sensor at east (105 degree), I can receive fox at 75%. The ABC is at 89 degree, so basically I need to place the antenna facing one side of the wall. If I can get fox to over 95% with 4228, I might have a shot to get ABC about 65%.

for those contemplating/having problems with the 4228. When the installer was here trying to aim my db8, it was tedious because of my topography. When we found what was the best spot, he began asking about the antenna and I told him where i got it. He said he'd like to try one of his antennas instead and i said fine, it may work better and if so, i'd buy it.

I didn't ask what it was but it was the spittin image of the 4228 ("solid" with no joiner like the db8 has). In the exact same position on the tripod as the db8 it did worse. Not a huge amount but I needed every drop of signal and the db8 obviously got it for me. So to those that need to eek out every last bar of strength on your meter because of difficult conditions, the db8 may be what you need even though it does cost 2x as much.

I'm in the Chicago area (sw subs,about 38 miles out) and decided to get the ChannelMaster 3020. It's a pretty huge antenna,is this overkill in this area? I'm in a new subdivision,no tall trees or buildings,with a two story house. Am also giving it thought to putting it in the attic and seeing how it performs there first.

Also,will running it through my 4x8 multiswitch by means of diplexing it through one of the LNB feeds first and sending it on it's way a good idea? Or should I get a 5x8 and run a new line to it with no diplexors except whatever tv needs one?

I'm a newbie, but live in the western burbs as well (around I-355 and Lake Street/Route 20) and had really great luck with a radio shack amplified antenna that I have stowed in the entertainment cabinet next to the TV, on the ground floor.

Alot of what I've read from these boards is "more is better," so I imagine you'll be golden. It seems people tend to have more issues when they're really close to the source of the signal, or really very far (lots further away than you are). From where you are, you should be able to point that baby between the Sears Tower and the John Hancock (which from that distance, visually looks like what, the space between your thumb and pinky finger?) and get a really strong signal.

I'm in the Chicago area (sw subs,about 38 miles out) and decided to get the ChannelMaster 3020. It's a pretty huge antenna,is this overkill in this area? I'm in a new subdivision,no tall trees or buildings,with a two story house. Am also giving it thought to putting it in the attic and seeing how it performs there first.

Also,will running it through my 4x8 multiswitch by means of diplexing it through one of the LNB feeds first and sending it on it's way a good idea? Or should I get a 5x8 and run a new line to it with no diplexors except whatever tv needs one? It's always better to run it on a separate line if you have the choice.

It's always better to run it on a separate line if you have the choice.

Especially for directv users that want the new 5lnb dish that you can't diplex

Especially for directv users that want the new 5lnb dish that you can't diplex

Any reason I should get that new dish? I didn't think there was,thats why I'm putting up that bad boy.
I'm thinking the OTA signals will be better (marginally) than MPEG4. Besides D*TV doesn't carry all the local channels.
Also can't use my HDTivo either with the new dish (for HD locals)

Any reason I should get that new dish? I didn't think there was,thats why I'm putting up that bad boy.
I'm thinking the OTA signals will be better (marginally) than MPEG4. Besides D*TV doesn't carry all the local channels.
Also can't use my HDTivo either with the new dish (for HD locals)

First off you can use the 5lnb dish with HDtivo and it will work exactly as always with the old dish but of course you are right that you can't get mpeg4 locals

A reason to get the new dish is if you can't get certain of the big 4 ota. I was almost ready to go to cable because fox (and wb actually) was hard to get in for me but resolved that issue. So now that fox is ok, i dont need to even get the new dvr when it comes out. If you get everything you need OTA, there simply is no reason to go to mpeg4 at this moment. Now if they ever start rolling out mpeg4 HD networks like sci fi etc (HA, let me stop right there because that wont happen)

Are mpeg4 worse than ota? Glad you asked! Recently i've been racking everyone's brain on that issue. The best answers other people have given me so far are:
START QUOTE
-------------
Well, unless DirecTV is getting the raw SDI datastream from the OTA station (unlikely), what DirecTV is actually doing in recompressing an already compressed picture.

If DirecTV is getting the same MPEG2 stream from the OTA station that we can pick up with our OTA antenna, it would be impossible for any signal sent by DirecTV to us over the satellite, whether further encoded with MPEG2 or reencoded with MPEG4 to look as good as the original OTA signal.

Further lossy compressing an already lossy compressed signal always looks worse than the original lossy compressed signal regardless of the secondary lossy compression method used.
------------

I cant compare the HD DVRs.. but i can tell you that as a technology, a 15-18mb/s MPEG 2 picture is better - by far - than a 10mb/s H.264 MPEG4 picture - at least on the encoders ive used..

When viewed on the large (7') screen, everyone i showed it to could see the difference. MPEG2 was clearly the 'better picture'

MPEG4 is 'damn good' considering it is almost 1/2 the bandwidth.. but for overall picture quality a high b/w MPEG2 source is better.. most of the encoder videophiles agree that high b/w mpeg2 is better than mid b/w MPEG4.. however, bit for bit.. MPEG4 will be better (eg. you cant compare a 10mb/s MPEG2 and MPEG4 source.. mpeg2 is only better at higher bit rates).
--------------------------

it is possible that the re-compressed signal will be only negligibly worse, that is, that the difference won't be noticeable. As an analogy, if you open a JPEG compressed image and edit it and then re-save it, in theory you've lost some quality, but in practice you often won't see a difference unless you do it many times. Some are reporting that they don't see a difference between the re-compressed DirecTV signal and OTA.

---------------------END QUOTE

So therefore I must conclude, after people's answers above, that while I may not be able to tell the difference, mpeg4 pretty much cannot be better than what we get OTA because 'something' is done to it between the TV station and our dishes, where as nothing except a tree is between us and a TV tower :)

If a person went from mpeg2 to mpeg4 without seeing OTA, I"m sure they would be thrilled. (me included) That's how I like to think of it. But I have no pixels or audio problems since my OTA was perfected tuesday morning and i do hear of problems with the new HR20 receivers so I'm quite happy with OTA and my expensive HDtivo unit for the forseeable future.

Thank you for that long post, it confirms the way I have been leaning. I am putting my money into a good antenna setup and leaving the D* just the way it is. CBS is still questionable but D* gives me CBS2 out of LA (in mpeg2) so I am covered there.

Thank you for that long post, ...


"I have written you a long letter because I do not have time to write you a short
one.'

—Blaise Paschal

Are you pulling ABC from Lynchburg? I'm in Blacksburg and AntennaWeb doesn't show DTV out of Roanoke, nor do I get anything from that direction. I get the rest very nicely though.

[QUOTE=Tower Guy]


I pulled trigger and ordered 4228.
I did some homework last night, driving my car with computers on it. I found that a open space only about 300 yards from my building. When I pointed the silver sensor to the right direction, I can get over 90% on Fox and 50-60% on ABC. My balcony is face south. When I placed silver sensor at east (105 degree), I can receive fox at 75%. The ABC is at 89 degree, so basically I need to place the antenna facing one side of the wall. If I can get fox to over 95% with 4228, I might have a shot to get ABC about 65%.

I just got a HDTV tuner, and I'm having problems with the included silver sensor. All I can get to play smoothly is FOX. It's odd, because I am 3-4 miles from the towers. I moved it around all over my room, but I can only get 50-70% of the other ones. I really just want HD PBS and UPN. My zip code is 35213. What should I do? Thanks!

Are you pulling ABC from Lynchburg? I'm in Blacksburg and AntennaWeb doesn't show DTV out of Roanoke, nor do I get anything from that direction. I get the rest very nicely though.



Yup, it is channel 13.1 (34) from Lynchburg. I live in the south side of the town. The only problem for me is that my balcony is facing south at 180 while ABC is from east at 89 degree as well as several buildings between mine and the open space. Some folks at North Main reported receiving ABC using 4228 very well. I guess it depends on the location and antenna.

I just got a HDTV tuner, and I'm having problems with the included silver sensor. All I can get to play smoothly is FOX. It's odd, because I am 3-4 miles from the towers. I moved it around all over my room, but I can only get 50-70% of the other ones. I really just want HD PBS and UPN. My zip code is 35213. What should I do? Thanks!
When you are that close to the towers, the first thing to try is an attenuator to reduce the signal level going into the tuner:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062022&cp=&kw=attenuator&parentPage=search

I have a really newbie question, so sorry if it sounds dumb. But what in the world is the difference between a Preamp and an Amp? Are they two different terms for the same thing?

Thanks
a preamp is just an amp that comes earlier in the signal chain, usually a voltage amp tuned to the frequencies it must amplify. to a level acceptable to match the input in of the next stage in the signal chain. nearly all amps are actually several stages , or single amplifiers (one transistor or tube) connected in a chain to bring a signal to the needed power level, step by step, from microvolts at the antenna up to several watts at the speaker or display device. In the frontend of a radio circuit the preamp is before the so called rf amp, in audio circuitry the preamp comes before the power amp, both are called preamps but handle different signal types and power levels.

'
What is your source for this belief?

I read on the FCC web site that they are reallocating the VHF band to public safety.
in my area hdtv signals are on uhf now but when analog broadcast are phased out they will move back to the vhf frequencies now occupied by their analog counterparts. the public safty allocations will be in 700 and 800 mhz bands

Unoccupied UHF channel positions CH14-21 are currently in use at various cities for Public Safety radio systems.
By Feb2009, all analog NTSC broadcasts are expected to shut down, but this is a firm NOT TO EXCEED date.
Some stations have shut down already and others may join them at any time.

By 17Feb2009, CH52 thru CH69 should be devoid of any broadcast TV stations and will be available for other purposes,
such as CH55 will be used NATION-WIDE for Qualcom's MediaFlo broadcast to mobile phones (and PCs) and CH 63/64 for Public Safety:
http://wireless.fcc.gov/publicsafety/700MHz/
http://www.dailywireless.org/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=5049

===================================================
The results of the DTV Channel Election process can be found here:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-1743A2.pdf
or fol for Excel spread sheet version:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-1743A2.xls
There are only a handful of stations that have not selected a final resting place.

So that means all of us that have those small UHF only antennas from RS have to get new ones?

Not all, but some of you may. There will still be alot of station on UHF. But a few will go back to VHF channels. Here in my market, two station want to go back to VHF, one is already VHF, and three that moved to UHF will stay there. One that moved to UHF years ago, will also stay there.

Although they aren't the best VHF antenna you can get, many UHF-ONLY antennas
will provide adequate performance when used with the more powerful VHF stations.

Heck, unless you are in the boonies, most people get along just fine with simple rabbit ears for VHF.

If you can receive a clear picture from their current analog VHF channel,
you'll probably receive an even better picture when they switch over to digital.

Although they aren't the best VHF antenna you can get, many UHF-ONLY antennas
will provide adequate performance when used with the more powerful VHF stations.

Heck, unless you are in the boonies, most people get along just fine with simple rabbit ears for VHF.

If you can receive a clear picture from their current analog VHF channel,
you'll probably receive an even better picture when they switch over to digital.
Even most people in the boonies won't need VHF-low so they would have no need for a giant VHF or combo antenna. A VHF-high antenna or future VHF-high/UHF combo antenna (maybe a 156 to 233 Mhz log-periodic which would pick up VHF-high on the fundamental and UHF 14-51 on the 3rd harmonic) would look petite compared to one of those old beasts.

:eek: Oh! No! :eek: Looks like my NBC station (now using channel 52), has applied to go back to channel 5 after analog shut-off. But I'm not going to worry about it until they actually make the switch. Then I'll figure out what kind of antenna to use.

is it actually possible to have an antenna too high? i'm curious because i recently raised my antenna to aproximately 32 ft and some channel that i was getting have now disappeared! i also used to be able to ocassionally receive miami and wp beach stations ( HD channels ) here in lehigh acres,fl. but since i raised the antenna i no longer receive them. could there be another reason for this?

using an old winegard UHF antenna and a radio shack up to 30db amplifier,running approximately 60ft of rg6 cable

There is a small chance the signals are weaker up high, but the more likely cause is preamp overload. Dou have any nearby stations? Also the preamp has much more gain than is need for ypur cable length. John

Although they aren't the best VHF antenna you can get, many UHF-ONLY antennas
will provide adequate performance when used with the more powerful VHF stations.

Heck, unless you are in the boonies, most people get along just fine with simple rabbit ears for VHF.

If you can receive a clear picture from their current analog VHF channel,
you'll probably receive an even better picture when they switch over to digital.
So can you use a UHF antenna to get FM stations?

Is there an all in one antenna that also includes AM?

FM band starts at the top of CH6, so most any VHF antenna also works for FM.

There are some lo-gain indoor antennas (e.g. Terk) that do both AM and FM, but I've never seen any serious medium to high gain TV antennas that also did AM.....

Hmmm, why is that??? After all, cars do it all the time....
And boats can use an AM/FM/VHF Splitter (e.g. Shakespeare 4357-S) to couple their VHF Transceivers into the same whip antenna as their AM/FM Receiver.

Ah-ha, here's one in the same boat catalog: Shakesphere 4358 AM/FM/TV Band Separator (about $40):
http://www.shakespeare-marine.com/catalog/fullline.pdf
Unfortunately, no specs...

Most any chunk of wire will help to receive AM....the longer the better....
All you would need is an AM/FM Diplexer (aka AM/FM Splitter, aka crossband coupler) with a 2 MHz LPF to filter the low AM freqs to one output
and a 50 MHz HPF for the VHF/UHF freqs to the other. You could build your own....

I get pretty good results receiving FM just using rabbit ears.

There are some lo-gain indoor antennas (e.g. Terk) that do both AM and FM, but I've never seen any serious medium to high gain TV antennas that also did AM.....

Hmmm, why is that??? After all, cars do it all the time....

I can think of a few reasons. Probably the best is that AM isn't hard to receive. The second-best is that AM isn't that popular. The third-best is that an AM dipole is insanely long.

is it actually possible to have an antenna too high? i'm curious because i recently raised my antenna to aproximately 32 ft and some channel that i was getting have now disappeared! i also used to be able to ocassionally receive miami and wp beach stations ( HD channels ) here in lehigh acres,fl. but since i raised the antenna i no longer receive them. could there be another reason for this?

using an old winegard UHF antenna and a radio shack up to 30db amplifier,running approximately 60ft of rg6 cable

Try this preamp. 30 db of gain is too much for your location. Some RS preamps are prone to overload problems.

SPECIAL USE PRE-AMP

NEW HDP-269 (75 ohm in 75 ohm down) Special Pre-amp used in high input suburban area to boost signal before long cable run. $55.78

Only 12 dB with 3 dB Noise but can take 350,000 uV of input so it will not overload in strong signal location

From Post 3953

Ok,got my CM3020 and set it up in my attic here in zip 60585,sw of Chicago about 38 miles. Not easy to do as this thing is really long! Anyway,was able to get all of the channels except of course CBS (channel 2,which I had a feeling would be impossible) which is on Digital VHF 3. I have a very faint signal on that according to my Hughes HTL-HD. Would picking up an amplifier (CM7777?) get me what I need to lock it in? Or should I just suck it up and put it on the roof,which I think would pull it in (I hope!) I know it's ok to do it,just wanted to avoid it for aesthetic reasons.

Also,running the feed from the antenna and combining it with satellite signal after the multiswich (a 4x8) with diplexers only to the receivers that need it should be ok right? I don't want to run separate lines to all 4 TV's using a 4 way splitter or some such nonsense.

I see on eBay a ton of Direct TV / OTA receivers. What are the restrictions to these?

Can I tune an OTA reception through one without having to subscribe to DirectTV?

I recently dropped my local cable. I could pick up PBS, ABC, CBS, maybe NBC and Fox in April using OTA.

However, if I can do it with a $50 DirectTV / OTA receiver vs. a $150 Samsung OTA only box, my wife would like me much better.

Please shed your unlimited wealth of knowledge with me to know if this is a mistake.

slapshot, it's much easier to just try an amp now while the antenna is in place then if it doesn't work, just return it then try the roof. Or even keep it and use it when the antenna is outside. Point is, it's easier to try everything inside before you go thru the hassle of outside.

as far as the diplexor thing, it should work. Of course if one ever is planning on directvs 5lnb dish, diplexing is out but it doesn't sound like that's an issue for you.

Hi, total newbie to the HDTV lifestyle. Though, I need help with either getting a new antenna or pre-amp (or both).

I am in Kalamazoo, Michigan and according to antennaweb I should be able to get these:

Station, Channel, Network, Miles From,
WOTV-DT, 41.1, ABC, 24 (Signal is 80-90%)
WMXI-DT, 17.1, FOX, 30.7 (Signal is 75-85%)
WGVK/U-DT, 5.1 (mistake? on TV it is 52.1), PBS, 3.7 (Signal is 85-95%)
WOOD-DT, 8.1, NBC, 30.9 (Signal is 75-80%)

I don't pick up the local 'i' channel, and don't care about it. Another channel is listed hasn't gone live yet.

Though, I want:
WWMT-DT, 3.1, CBS, 26.9

And can't pick it up. Over analog it comes in very fuzzy, so I take it with the 'all or nothing' for digital, I get nothing.

Right now I am using, a 80" Boom Length, 32-Element Antenna with no pre-amp.

Should I get a pre-amp first and see if that helps, or what?

Hi, total newbie to the HDTV lifestyle. Though, I need help with either getting a new antenna or pre-amp (or both).

I am in Kalamazoo, Michigan and according to antennaweb I should be able to get these:

Station, Channel, Network, Miles From,
WOTV-DT, 41.1, ABC, 24 (Signal is 80-90%)
WMXI-DT, 17.1, FOX, 30.7 (Signal is 75-85%)
WGVK/U-DT, 5.1 (mistake? on TV it is 52.1), PBS, 3.7 (Signal is 85-95%)
WOOD-DT, 8.1, NBC, 30.9 (Signal is 75-80%)

I don't pick up the local 'i' channel, and don't care about it. Another channel is listed hasn't gone live yet.

Though, I want:
WWMT-DT, 3.1, CBS, 26.9

And can't pick it up. Over analog it comes in very fuzzy, so I take it with the 'all or nothing' for digital, I get nothing.

Right now I am using, a 80" Boom Length, 32-Element Antenna with no pre-amp.

Should I get a pre-amp first and see if that helps, or what?

Hey fellow Michigander! Come check out this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=349584&page=1&pp=30

Lots of West Michigan antenna info there.

I moved to a 10 acre place I bought in SE Arizona in December. Antennaweb.org told me the Tucson TV stations transmit from 54 miles away and analog VHF reception of 1 or 2 stations were all I could hope for. So, I went with Dish network's HD package (I have a Sony 57" rear projection HDTV). ESPN & the couple of other HD channels they offer came in pretty good. But the local station feed for Tucson was terrible. Apparently they get only the analog feed and compress it down to mpeg2. So, I did some research & shopping. There are several mountain ranges between me and Tucson, but I though I just might luck out. I decided to go with a Winegard 9095 antenna - 95" UHF only directional boom, and a Channel Master 7777 preamp. Antennaweb.org told me to orient the antenna at 285 degrees compass heading. I fired everything up and the HD tuner told me I was only getting 20-30% signal strenght. But, 285 degrees was pointing right at a mountain peak about 20 miles away. I kept trying different headings, working my way down. Finally, pointing the antenna just south of due west (maybe 265 degrees) I found the strongest signal, as I was pointing toward a gap between 2 mountain ranges. What I lost from being off-directional I gained with more signal making it through the "holes" in the skyline. I get all 6 Tucson stations broadcasting digital signals, in 70-91% signal strength. Great to have HD OTA back, just in time for the premier of Fox's "24", and the NFL playoffs.
So, it can be done for "fringe reception" (50+ miles). You just need some good equipment, and luck with topography.
Dave now in Cochise

and here i thought i've been watching 24 for 6 weeks now. :)

I moved to a 10 acre place I bought in SE Arizona in December. Antennaweb.org told me the Tucson TV stations transmit from 54 miles away and analog VHF reception of 1 or 2 stations were all I could hope for. So, I went with Dish network's HD package (I have a Sony 57" rear projection HDTV). ESPN & the couple of other HD channels they offer came in pretty good. But the local station feed for Tucson was terrible. Apparently they get only the analog feed and compress it down to mpeg2. So, I did some research & shopping. There are several mountain ranges between me and Tucson, but I though I just might luck out. I decided to go with a Winegard 9095 antenna - 95" UHF only directional boom, and a Channel Master 7777 preamp. Antennaweb.org told me to orient the antenna at 285 degrees compass heading. I fired everything up and the HD tuner told me I was only getting 20-30% signal strenght. But, 285 degrees was pointing right at a mountain peak about 20 miles away. I kept trying different headings, working my way down. Finally, pointing the antenna just south of due west (maybe 265 degrees) I found the strongest signal, as I was pointing toward a gap between 2 mountain ranges. What I lost from being off-directional I gained with more signal making it through the "holes" in the skyline. I get all 6 Tucson stations broadcasting digital signals, in 70-91% signal strength. Great to have HD OTA back, just in time for the premier of Fox's "24", and the NFL playoffs.
So, it can be done for "fringe reception" (50+ miles). You just need some good equipment, and luck with topography.
Dave now in Cochise

That's cool, you got it right. There is a lot of hocus pocus associated with UHF antennas that's for sure.

I'm new to the antenna and HDTV world. I just bought a HDTV tuner off EBay (also comes with a NTSC tuner for analog stations) and need some advice regarding antenna selection.

I live in an apartment building in Berkeley, around 10 miles east of the Sutro transmission tower in San Francisco. I am on the east side of my building, so when I look out the window, I see the Berkeley Hills, and not the Sutro tower that is west of me. Between my apartment and the west side of the building (towards Sutro tower) is 60 feet and 3 walls.

My friend brought over his Samsung T451 tuner and RCA ANT401 antenna (unamplified VHF/UHF antenna). The T451 picked up channels from Sutro with no problem. I was surprised at the clarity.

So now with my HDTV tuner on the way, I need to buy an antenna. I've heard good things about the Zenith Silver Sensor. I am not sure if the TV signals I received (using friend's equipment) were reflections off the Berkeley Hills. Do you recommend getting a directional antenna or an omni-directional antenna? Would the Zenith Silver Sensor work for me?

So now with my HDTV tuner on the way, I need to buy an antenna. I've heard good things about the Zenith Silver Sensor. I am not sure if the TV signals I received (using friend's equipment) were reflections off the Berkeley Hills. Do you recommend getting a directional antenna or an omni-directional antenna? Would the Zenith Silver Sensor work for me?

First of all, you don't say which model tuner you bought, and that will probably determine whether you have success or not. The newer models (such as the 451) handle multipath (reflected signals that compete with the primary signal, and appear as "ghosts" on analog channels) much better than the older ones.

That said, the Silver Sensor is probably close to the top of the list of antenna choices. You'll definitely want a directional antenna, but the fact that your friend's RCA worked well (an antenna with relatively poor performance characteristics) means that antenna choice is probably not crucial for you. Avoid anything that says "amplified."

If the choice were mine, I'd buy the Silver Sensor and hope my tuner was good enough to handle to inevitable multipath. If the Silver Sensor didn't work as well as the 451, I'd sell the tuner and buy a newer one.

Thanks sregener.

I purchased an Epson LSDT2 HDTV tuner. It has the same chassis as the Viewsonic HD12, so my guess is that it's a Viewsonic HD12 with a few changes. For example, there's only Composite, S-Video, and VGA outputs instead of the whole HDMI shabang. How does the HD12 treat multipath signals?

(for more information about what I bought you can search the item number 5861413413 on EBay)

How does the HD12 treat multipath signals?

I had no idea Epson or Viewsonic made HD tuners, so I have no idea how they would perform. Perhaps a search or posting on the HDTV Hardware forum would get you better answers.

I live in Northern California (Chico - 95973). Most of our stations are now in HD but at low power. Using an AntennasDirect DB4 I can pull in signal from Redding (67 miles away) most of the time for ABC and PBS although PBS has been worse lately. My problem is that CBS and Fox are about 90 degrees to this and much closer (<20 miles). I do not want to use a rotor (I Tivo a lot).

I was considering getting a Yagi type antenna (AntennasDirect 43XG or 91XG) and pointing it to Redding to increase signal for those stations. Could I continue to use the DB4 and point it at the other stations? How would I combine the signals from the two antennas? Would this work?

Chris

I live in Northern California (Chico - 95973). Most of our stations are now in HD but at low power. Using an AntennasDirect DB4 I can pull in signal from Redding (67 miles away) most of the time for ABC and PBS although PBS has been worse lately. My problem is that CBS and Fox are about 90 degrees to this and much closer (<20 miles). I do not want to use a rotor (I Tivo a lot).

I was considering getting a Yagi type antenna (AntennasDirect 43XG or 91XG) and pointing it to Redding to increase signal for those stations. Could I continue to use the DB4 and point it at the other stations? How would I combine the signals from the two antennas? Would this work?

Chris

I think you stand a good chance for this to work.The DB4 is going to pick up very little signal from the Redding stations off the side.Just use a common type splitter used backwards to combine both antennas.As far as the length of feedline for each antenna,you can try equal or unequal lengths and see which works better.There may be a difference.

I see these types of posts frequently using a tivo.Would certainly be nice if the manufactures would design these things with two or three antenna inputs.The needed channels could be assigned to a designated input and be very user friendly.I would think this feature would be relatively cheap and simple to incorporate into these boxes.

I live in Northern California (Chico - 95973). Most of our stations are now in HD but at low power. Using an AntennasDirect DB4 I can pull in signal from Redding (67 miles away) most of the time for ABC and PBS although PBS has been worse lately. My problem is that CBS and Fox are about 90 degrees to this and much closer (<20 miles). I do not want to use a rotor (I Tivo a lot).

I was considering getting a Yagi type antenna (AntennasDirect 43XG or 91XG) and pointing it to Redding to increase signal for those stations. Could I continue to use the DB4 and point it at the other stations? How would I combine the signals from the two antennas? Would this work?

Chris

Here's the antennaweb results for 95973.

* lt green - uhf KCVU-DT 30.1 FOX PARADISE CA 20° 14.0 20
* red - uhf KHSL-DT 12.1 CBS CHICO CA 21° 13.4 43
* violet - uhf KRCR-DT 34.1 ABC REDDING CA 307° 69.0 34
* violet - uhf KNVN-DT 24.1 NBC CHICO CA 323° 33.6 36
* violet - uhf KIXE-DT 18.1 PBS REDDING CA 307° 69.0 18

Here's the dilemma for you, the DB4 has a broad enough beamwidth for 307 and 323 degrees at the same time. An antenna with more gain has a narrow beam pattern and can't pick up both simultaneously.

The DB4 would be fine for FOX and CBS. The 91XG would get ABC and PBS, but it's beam is too narrow to pick up NBC while aimed at ABC and PBS. Are you using a preamp with the DB4? If not, a preamp should solve your PBS dropout problem.

The best approach for a heavy DVR user is seperate antennas that are added together with a product called a jointenna. Jointennas are built special order for each channel.

I can't suggest a good solution for you until I know if you already use a preamp.

I don't have a preamp yet. Any recommendations? Actually PBS is the only problem right now. KNVN's signal (323 degrees) is highly variable, going from 95 on the meter to 30 and back again but they only just started HD broadcasts a few days ago and have a lot of other issues as well (very low audio level). I'm thinking that moving the antenna a few degrees towards it won't help much. KHSL and Fox (20 degrees) are actually OK for now even with the antenna pointed at 307 degrees. Signal strength is a little lower but very stable. I'll need to keep an eye on it.

Chris

I don't have a preamp yet. Any recommendations?
Chris

The hottest preamp is the Channel Master 7777, but you may not need that much gain. I'm fond of the Winegard HDP-269.

In your case I'd add the preamp to the DB4 aimed at Redding and buy a second DB4 for FOX and CBS. At first I'd try to add them with a splitter used backwards. If that does not work there's two options, the simplest is to add a second HDP-269 to the FOX/CBS antenna before they are added to the Redding signals.

If that doesn't work buy Jointennas for 20 and 43, feed them with a signal split off the new DB4 antenna line, and add those signals to the existing antenna with the Jointennas daisy-channed. The preamps need to be directly behind the antennas, the rest of the electronics can be sashed anywhere indoors.

Here's my dilema - hoping for insight from the expertise on this board:

I want to tune the below 2 stations (here's the antennaweb info):
PBS - Chapel Hill - Orientation 309 degrees, Frequency: 59
WB - Raleigh - Orientation 100 degrees, Frequency: 57

Right now, my CM4228 is oriented towards WB (there's other stations that direction too), and that comes in fine. PBS is spotty.

I've tried another antenna [CM3022] oriented towards PBS, and combining the 2 with a 'reverse-splitter', but that gives bad multi-path on PBS.

Seems a 'jointenna' might be the way to go, but note how close the 2 frequencies are. If I get a join-tenna for the 59 frequency, (PBS) I'm worried about impacting my reception on the 57 (WB). [ It probably doesn't help that this particular WB stations' power output is not the strongest either ... :( ]

I'm basing this concern off of what I've read that jointennas aren't 100% precise for a given frequency, and can also impact frequencies 1 or 2 in both directions

Does anyone have any experience using a jointenna to add a channel that might be this close to another? Any luck?

What about the notion of 'cheating' a little with the jointenna, and using one for Frequency - say - 60, in hopes that it minimizes the multi-path on 59 enough from 1 direction, while impacting the 57 less (than a 59 jointenna would).

As a side-note, I wonder why (if?) no one has come up with a 'tuneable' jointenna. Seems that would be a great product, allow for re-use later in other applications (you move residences), and be good for my situation above. I also wonder why CM seems to be the only company that makes a jointenna (or jointenna like) device. Anyone know of any other vendors?

In any event, thanks in advance for any and all info/guidance anyone can share!

Hi greenehouse,

Yes this can be accomplished. However, you have to use an additional Jointenna and a regular splitter (as a combiner) after them to combine their output.

In this configuration, the Jointenna's are used merely as a bandpass filter allowing the desired channel to pass blocking all others. You do this for each channel and antenna, in this case WP and PBS. The extra coax input on the Jointenna that is used for "all channels" is not used and is terminated with a 75 ohm terminator to prevent any strong stray signals from jumping in.

I have this same setup and it works perfect, I have a three way splitter/combiner with the third leg used as input for the antenna pointed to Garner for the major stations. Get a good quality splitter like a Pico Macom or a 2 Ghz Monster Cable brand from Best Buy.


Here's my dilema - hoping for insight from the expertise on this board:

I want to tune the below 2 stations (here's the antennaweb info):
PBS - Chapel Hill - Orientation 309 degrees, Frequency: 59
WB - Raleigh - Orientation 100 degrees, Frequency: 57

Right now, my CM4228 is oriented towards WB (there's other stations that direction too), and that comes in fine. PBS is spotty.

I've tried another antenna [CM3022] oriented towards PBS, and combining the 2 with a 'reverse-splitter', but that gives bad multi-path on PBS.

Seems a 'jointenna' might be the way to go, but note how close the 2 frequencies are. If I get a join-tenna for the 59 frequency, (PBS) I'm worried about impacting my reception on the 57 (WB). [ It probably doesn't help that this particular WB stations' power output is not the strongest either ... :( ]

I'm basing this concern off of what I've read that jointennas aren't 100% precise for a given frequency, and can also impact frequencies 1 or 2 in both directions

Does anyone have any experience using a jointenna to add a channel that might be this close to another? Any luck?

What about the notion of 'cheating' a little with the jointenna, and using one for Frequency - say - 60, in hopes that it minimizes the multi-path on 59 enough from 1 direction, while impacting the 57 less (than a 59 jointenna would).

As a side-note, I wonder why (if?) no one has come up with a 'tuneable' jointenna. Seems that would be a great product, allow for re-use later in other applications (you move residences), and be good for my situation above. I also wonder why CM seems to be the only company that makes a jointenna (or jointenna like) device. Anyone know of any other vendors?

In any event, thanks in advance for any and all info/guidance anyone can share!

Ok, I am new here, so I thought I would ask a question. I apologize if someone has already brought this up and I missed it. Please point me in teh right direction if that is the case.

Has anyone tried Antennas Direct's Lacrosse? I am looking into buying one, and I wanted to see what your experience has been. My uncle has one that he has been using for a few weeks at his house in San Francisco. He said he had a DB4 before that. I've read a couple of reviews for the Lacrosse, that give it high marks, so I am probably going to take the leap.

I live in northwest St. Louis County in Missouri. It says on the Antennas Direct website that they're good for up to 40 miles so I think I should be fine. I'm impressed with the look of them. I don't have an attic, and I had some reservations sticking a big antenna on my roof. But this actually looks better than the dish that I already have out there!

I am pretty much a newbie to HD. Still warming up to the idea that I can get HD picture from an antenna! Any insight you might have on the Lacrosse would be appreciated.

Don't know anything about that antenna, but you'd better hurry up and enjoy OTA HD while you still can, because it's slowly but surely getting watered down by adding more subchannels, which is accomplished by lessening the bandwith, lowering bit rates and compressing more, resulting in less detail, softer picture and annoying artifacts such as macroblocking during fast movements. It's still better that most of the satellite HD channels, but that may not be for long.

Dang Rammitinski! What are you trying to do, make me cry?!? :p

Ok, I am new here, so I thought I would ask a question. I apologize if someone has already brought this up and I missed it. Please point me in teh right direction if that is the case.

Has anyone tried Antennas Direct's Lacrosse? I am looking into buying one, and I wanted to see what your experience has been. My uncle has one that he has been using for a few weeks at his house in San Francisco. He said he had a DB4 before that. I've read a couple of reviews for the Lacrosse, that give it high marks, so I am probably going to take the leap.

I live in northwest St. Louis County in Missouri. It says on the Antennas Direct website that they're good for up to 40 miles so I think I should be fine. I'm impressed with the look of them. I don't have an attic, and I had some reservations sticking a big antenna on my roof. But this actually looks better than the dish that I already have out there!

I am pretty much a newbie to HD. Still warming up to the idea that I can get HD picture from an antenna! Any insight you might have on the Lacrosse would be appreciated.
That antenna looks overpriced for what it is. Antenna gain comes from directivity and directivity comes from size measured in wavelengths. Look back in this thread for antenna recommendations. If you go to www.antennaweb.org you can get an idea of the type of antenna that you need. For a UHF antenna without too much horizontal directivity the Channelmaster 4221 or the Antennas Direct DB-4 are good choices.

Here's my dilema - hoping for insight from the expertise on this board:

I want to tune the below 2 stations (here's the antennaweb info):
PBS - Chapel Hill - Orientation 309 degrees, Frequency: 59
WB - Raleigh - Orientation 100 degrees, Frequency: 57...

Seems a 'jointenna' might be the way to go, but note how close the 2 frequencies are. If I get a join-tenna for the 59 frequency, (PBS) I'm worried about impacting my reception on the 57 (WB)... Does anyone have any experience using a jointenna to add a channel that might be this close to another?

What about the notion of 'cheating' a little with the jointenna, and using one for Frequency - say - 60, in hopes that it minimizes the multi-path on 59 enough from 1 direction, while impacting the 57 less (than a 59 jointenna would).

As a side-note, I wonder why (if?) no one has come up with a 'tuneable' jointenna. ...

I also wonder why CM seems to be the only company that makes a jointenna (or jointenna like) device. Anyone know of any other vendors?


Jointennas are crudely tunable, but you need a spectrum analyzer to tune them.
There are slightly better bandpass filters available that do a little better with alternate channel rejection, but they cost more. You can try contacting Tin Lee Electronics in Canada if you are willing to pay around $100 each.

With alternate channels, you would probably do better using Winegard tunable notch filters, UT-7600, but again, you'd need to use a spectrum analyzer to tune them optimally.

Dang Rammitinski! What are you trying to do, make me cry?!? :p No, just mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.

Don't know anything about that antenna, but you'd better hurry up and enjoy OTA HD while you still can, because it's slowly but surely getting watered down by adding more subchannels, which is accomplished by lessening the bandwith, lowering bit rates and compressing more, resulting in less detail, softer picture and annoying artifacts such as macroblocking during fast movements. It's still better that most of the satellite HD channels, but that may not be for long.

well by definition the OTA has to be better than or equal to the satellite so i'm sure we are all safe for a while :) But if it gets to be equal to OTA and also gets in all the channels I get OTA, then it may be time to pull down the DB8 but somehow i doubt dtv will ever get in CW or pbs

No, just mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.
It is sad, the route DTV is taking. There is not much truely high definition left as it is. Just look at almost any sporting event, yuk!

But more to the point Rammitinski, what are you going to do about it?

Don't know anything about that antenna, but you'd better hurry up and enjoy OTA HD while you still can, because it's slowly but surely getting watered down by adding more subchannels, which is accomplished by lessening the bandwith, lowering bit rates and compressing more, resulting in less detail, softer picture and annoying artifacts such as macroblocking during fast movements. It's still better that most of the satellite HD channels, but that may not be for long.

Compression equipment is getting better. The use of statmux equipment is more widespread. The combination of the two can create a subchannel with very little impact on the PQ of the main channel.

It is sad, the route DTV is taking. There is not much truely high definition left as it is. Just look at almost any sporting event, yuk!

But more to the point Rammitinski, what are you going to do about it?Not completely sure yet. I'm just dealing with it as it comes. Keep sending a lot of e-mails I guess. But if it gets really bad, other than pray they keep pushing back the analog cutoff date (some of my local digitals, even the ones without subs, actually look worse than the analogs), I guess all I can do is alert newbies to the fact that it's been declining, and just rally all the like-minded people I can. Here in Chicago, our local thread posters are really disgusted the way they've just recently completly wrecked our formerly glorious 1080i PBS-HD channel with a 2nd sub, and the real kicker is that the sub's so bad you can barely watch it. So us guys in the local OTA thread are doing what we can. We've even got one of their engineers reading our threads. Money wise, I know at least a few of our local PBS contributers are planning on not re-upping in protest. My Dish SD channels are atrocious, so once it gets warmer, I'll probably get up on the roof and get all the parts to send back and cancel (I'm leased). There's already plenty of griping about satellite on this forum. Everyone there is warning potential customers about Direct's HDLite and both's lies to new customers about upgradability to mpeg4 with the older HD equipment that they're still selling. And then there's the lousy customer service in general. And the becoming-as-common-as-cable yearly price increases. A lot of people are just absorbing their losses and actually going back to cable, that's how fed up they are.

I am supposedly in a good reception area for OTA. My local DirecTv installer has recommended I add the SS1000 Square Shooter to my DirecTv HD dish. She likes it because I really only need 233°-236° and she thinks the ss1000 will help block out other directions. I have read poor reviews of this antenna from others on this board.

Here are my Antennaweb specs. What would you recommend..... DB-2?

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Compass Miles Frequency

yellow - uhf WWOR-DT 9.1 UPN SECAUCUS NJ 234° 14.1 38
yellow - uhf WPXN-DT 31.1 i NEW YORK NY 233° 17.0 30
yellow - uhf WNYW-DT 5.1 FOX NEW YORK NY 234° 14.1 44
yellow - uhf WPIX-DT 11.1 WB NEW YORK NY 234° 14.1 33
yellow - uhf WXTV-DT 41.1 UNI PATERSON NJ 234° 14.1 40
yellow - uhf WNJU-DT 36 TEL LINDEN NJ 233° 17.0 36
yellow - uhf WCBS-DT 2.1 CBS NEW YORK NY 234° 14.1 56
yellow - uhf WABC-DT 7.1 ABC NEW YORK NY 236° 13.7 45
green - uhf WNBC-DT 4.1 NBC NEW YORK NY 236° 13.4 28
blue - uhf WFUT-DT 68.1 TFA NEWARK NJ 236° 13.7 53
violet - uhf WNET-DT 13.1 PBS NEWARK NJ 234° 14.1 61

Thank you!

Tim

I am supposedly in a good reception area for OTA. My local DirecTv installer has recommended I add the SS1000 Square Shooter to my DirecTv HD dish. She likes it because I really only need 233°-236° and she thinks the ss1000 will help block out other directions. I have read poor reviews of this antenna from others on this board.

Here are my Antennaweb specs. What would you recommend? Can I get away with just the DB-2? Also, do I still need a receiver like the 7777?

Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Compass Miles Frequency

yellow - uhf WWOR-DT 9.1 UPN SECAUCUS NJ 234° 14.1 38
yellow - uhf WPXN-DT 31.1 i NEW YORK NY 233° 17.0 30
yellow - uhf WNYW-DT 5.1 FOX NEW YORK NY 234° 14.1 44
yellow - uhf WPIX-DT 11.1 WB NEW YORK NY 234° 14.1 33
yellow - uhf WXTV-DT 41.1 UNI PATERSON NJ 234° 14.1 40
yellow - uhf WNJU-DT 36 TEL LINDEN NJ 233° 17.0 36
yellow - uhf WCBS-DT 2.1 CBS NEW YORK NY 234° 14.1 56
yellow - uhf WABC-DT 7.1 ABC NEW YORK NY 236° 13.7 45
green - uhf WNBC-DT 4.1 NBC NEW YORK NY 236° 13.4 28
blue - uhf WFUT-DT 68.1 TFA NEWARK NJ 236° 13.7 53
violet - uhf WNET-DT 13.1 PBS NEWARK NJ 234° 14.1 61

Thank you!

Tim