I forgot to add that the antenna will go on the roof of my 6 story condo with unobstructed view. This is where the HD dish already is.

Looking forward to your help.

Thank you!

Tim

I forgot to add that the antenna will go on the roof of my 6 story condo with unobstructed view. This is where the HD dish already is.

Thank you!

Tim

In your case the DB2 should work. The 7777 preamp may be too much gain because you are line of sight to so many strong stations. Signal strength wise the DB2 and the Square Shooter are similar. It is possible that the amplifier in the Square Shooter could be overloaded. The need for an amplifier depends on the length of the coax and the number of times that you will be splitting the signal before your TV set. For less than 100' of RG6 and no splitter I'd expect it to work without a preamp. If you want a preamp the new Winegard HDP-269 is designed to work in locations such as yours.

The only variable is if there are other buildings nearby that cause reflections. The solution would be a larger antenna than the DB2 such as the Channel Master 4228. No premap will be needed with the 4228 unless you are feeding a signal to every tenant in the building.

I'm looking for some guidance in the DTV off air antenna arena...

I live in the DC Metro area and recently bought an indoor off air HD antenna just to see what my new HDTV would pick up. I connected it to my ANT input and picked up no less than 36 channels originating from both DC Metro and Baltimore Metro areas.

DTV will be coming out in a week to install an HD Tivo Box and an outdoor off air antenna that will be connecting directly to the Tivo box to provide DC Metro off air HD channels.

My question...

If I decide to connect my current indoor off air antenna to the Tivo box instead of DTV's outdoor antenna, will I be able to access ALL of the off air HD channels (DC and Balt. Metro) that I am currently getting via the new HD Tivo box program guide or will DTV limit me to DC Metro channels only?

My question...

If I decide to connect my current indoor off air antenna to the Tivo box instead of DTV's outdoor antenna, will I be able to access ALL of the off air HD channels (DC and Balt. Metro) that I am currently getting via the new HD Tivo box program guide or will DTV limit me to DC Metro channels only?

you may have to enter 2 different zip codes but can just use the same antenna as you are using now. The guide data is by zip code and you have a primary and secondary you can choose on the HDtivo.

I wouldn't bother with their antenna if yours works that good. Unless it's free...then i guess can't hurt to try

Signal strength wise the DB2 and the Square Shooter are similar. It is possible that the amplifier in the Square Shooter could be overloaded.

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the SS1000/Square Shooter did not have an amplifier, but the SS2000 did.

How can I read the signal strength I am receiving?

Thank you!

Tim

I posted this in my local OTA thread, but they suggested I post it here.

ok everyone, I just bought a plasma tv and am trying to receive the Chicago HD locals, with no luck. I have tried the Radioshack 15 1880 that I have read so many good things about and that was worse than the Terk HDTVi that I initially purchased. I could receive CBS and NBC sometimes, but the pixelization would start shortly after getting a picture. I can see the antennas on top of the John Hancock from my window. I live in the River North area. Do any of you have suggestions? I"m in a high rise so an outdoor antenna is not an option, and my building has a contract with at DirecTV multi- dwelling provider that has a "master dish" on the roof so I can't add a OTA antenna to the dish.

Thanks for all of your help.

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that the SS1000/Square Shooter did not have an amplifier, but the SS2000 did.

How can I read the signal strength I am receiving?

Thank you!

Tim Seeing as all your stations are less than 20 miles and are all UHF, and you have a clear line of sight, I think the SS-1000 should work perfectly fine unless, like TowerGuy says, you're over 100 ft, and splitting the signal a bunch. Otherwise, everything else he says applies.

"There's HDTV In Them Thar Hills"

This article is a good read and might encourage those trying to get OTA signals in difficult locations:

http://ultimateavmag.com/howto/405hdtv/

I live in an apartment and use a zenith silver sensor. I cannot use an outdoor antenna or anything, and the antenna is in the best place I can find

When I try to watch ABC in HD, I can *almost* get it ok. The signal strength hovers around high 50s% (I can watch FOX in HD fine at mid 60s%)

Is there anything I can cheaply do to bump up the reception for ABC? maybe some sort of amplifier?

Hello all,

this my first time here, and I'm trying to find out if I'm doing something wrong my HDTV. I have a Samsung TX3271H Dynaflat tv (HD tuner built-in). I installed an antenna to my roof, and connected it to the tv set in order to receive the free over-the-air HD broadcasts. So far, most of the stations (that are available for my area) come in great, and then some. However, others (like ABC and WNUV) do not show a picture. When I check the signal strength through my tv set, it shows a strong signal strength, but no picture. When I fidget with the coxial cables, the picture may come in, but I'll lose another station. I tried using the "monster" coaxial cables, ferrite cores, and anneuator filters, but they did not show any improvement.

Does anyone have any suggestions or had a similar experience?

thanks!

--jason

I live in an apartment and use a zenith silver sensor. I cannot use an outdoor antenna or anything, and the antenna is in the best place I can find

When I try to watch ABC in HD, I can *almost* get it ok. The signal strength hovers around high 50s% (I can watch FOX in HD fine at mid 60s%)

Is there anything I can cheaply do to bump up the reception for ABC? maybe some sort of amplifier?


You don't provide enough information!

Your location is Central New York - where are you?

How close are you to the transmission sites?

Are there buildings, mountains, etc. in the way of line-of-sight from your antenna to the transmitting towers?

If you are fairly close, a pre-amp or amp more than likely will overload your tuner and will do more harm than good.

I also use the Silver Sensor - in the canyons of Manhattan - filled with multipath -
you have to walk your antenna around your room to find "sweet spots" for the various channels. Usually, the higher the position, the better.

If you buy amplification, make sure you can return the item if it doesn't work.

Hope this helps a bit.

Gary

When I fidget with the coxial cables, the picture may come in, but I'll lose another station.

Sounds like a bad connection. Check your connection at the antenna. Try replacing the cable. If neither of these work, something is probably loose within the set itself.

Wiggling the cable (RG-6, right?) shouldn't change your reception.

Hello all,

this my first time here, and I'm trying to find out if I'm doing something wrong my HDTV. I have a Samsung TX3271H Dynaflat tv (HD tuner built-in). I installed an antenna to my roof, and connected it to the tv set in order to receive the free over-the-air HD broadcasts. So far, most of the stations (that are available for my area) come in great, and then some. However, others (like ABC and WNUV) do not show a picture. When I check the signal strength through my tv set, it shows a strong signal strength, but no picture. When I fidget with the coxial cables, the picture may come in, but I'll lose another station. I tried using the "monster" coaxial cables, ferrite cores, and anneuator filters, but they did not show any improvement.

Does anyone have any suggestions or had a similar experience?

thanks!--jason

What type of antenna are you using? Do you have a preamp? Are you using any splitters? Can you look at the analog UHF stations, do you see noise, ghosting, or interference? What is your zip code? Are you interested in Baltimore stations only or DC as well?

I'm using a Terk indoor for OTA reception going directly to my TV. The signal I receive is very strong for several Wash, DC / Balt, MD stations. I would like to introduce a DirecTV HD DVR and do the install myself.

Can I use a splitter on the indoor antenna, running one line to the TV and one to the DVR?...or will that setup result in a weak signal for both the TV and the DVR?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

I'm using a Terk indoor for OTA reception going directly to my TV. The signal I receive is very strong for several Wash, DC / Balt, MD stations. I would like to introduce a DirecTV HD DVR and do the install myself.

Can I use a splitter on the indoor antenna, running one line to the TV and one to the DVR?...or will that setup result in a weak signal for both the TV and the DVR?

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

I wouldn't even use a splitter. The HR10-250 has two ATSC tuners built in (one input) along with the two sat tuners. Just go direct from your Terk to that.

I wouldn't even use a splitter. The HR10-250 has two ATSC tuners built in (one input) along with the two sat tuners. Just go direct from your Terk to that.


Thanks. I do want to continue my current OTA setup (connected to the ANT input on my TV) after hooking up the HD DVR. Simply because I would like the option to record two channels and watch another live channel at the same time.

Will a splitter help me in this scenario?

BTW my antenna is of the "amplified" variety.

Thanks. I do want to continue my current OTA setup (connected to the ANT input on my TV) after hooking up the HD DVR. Simply because I would like the option to record two channels and watch another live channel at the same time.

Will a splitter help me in this scenario?

BTW my antenna is of the "amplified" variety.

That will work fine for what you describe.

You don't provide enough information!

Your location is Central New York - where are you?

How close are you to the transmission sites?

Are there buildings, mountains, etc. in the way of line-of-sight from your antenna to the transmitting towers?

If you are fairly close, a pre-amp or amp more than likely will overload your tuner and will do more harm than good.

I also use the Silver Sensor - in the canyons of Manhattan - filled with multipath -
you have to walk your antenna around your room to find "sweet spots" for the various channels. Usually, the higher the position, the better.

If you buy amplification, make sure you can return the item if it doesn't work.

Hope this helps a bit.

Gary

I'm at school in Geneseo, NY. The transmitting towers are 27 miles away. There are a couple old buildings and maybe a large hill between me and the towers

I have also moved the antenna around the room (around the whole apartment, actually) and not found any better locations for the antenna

Does fog effect signal reception? Fog has been bad on the Gulf Coast the last two nights and my normally good signals from New Orleans have been near zero especially in the mornings when its dense.

I have read numerous positions on grounding throughout this thread, and I thought I would leave a little food for thought... As far as outdoors goes, you are foolish to not properly ground your rig. Second, always use home runs (separate individual ground runs) from both antenna base as well as coaxial grounding blocks to your service entrance, (the electrical service provided to your home) not to separate grounding rods. (all grounds must couple at the same termination point, so that you one, do not setup ground loops, and two, building code requires it)

The purposes for grounding your antenna is not to make it lightning proof. Nothing will survive a direct or indirect strike. Period. The reason for grounding removes the unwanted fields of static electricity around the antenna from becoming a magnet for potential. But grounding also provides other important benefits. Metal ungrounded in close proximity of your antenna, does infact become an antenna itself. It can, if within a few feet, couple with your antenna. So no matter if it is inside the attic, or out on the roof, metal objects close to your antenna can induce it's own fields. By grounding your attic mount you remove that potential, and insure a grounded plane close to your antenna's elements. Out on the roof, try to keep guy wires at least 4 foot from your antenna to insure they too don't couple with the antenna.

Happy motoring...

NOTE: No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Does fog effect signal reception? Fog has been bad on the Gulf Coast the last two nights and my normally good signals from New Orleans have been near zero especially in the mornings when its dense.

Fog by itself does not cause much extra signal loss. What may be happening is that the fog is an indication of odd temperature and humidity layers at various heights. These layers can bend the signal in unusual ways.

Fog by itself does not cause much extra signal loss. What may be happening is that the fog is an indication of odd temperature and humidity layers at various heights. These layers can bend the signal in unusual ways.

Fog usually enhances signals to a large degree.However,the enhancment may cover a very large area causing co-channel interference,which will wipe out a local signal in the process.As it's doing here this morning.Of course,us Dxers love this kind of stuff.Back to the dials :-)

Fog usually enhances signals to a large degree.However,the enhancment may cover a very large area causing co-channel interference,which will wipe out a local signal in the process.As it's doing here this morning.Of course,us Dxers love this kind of stuff.Back to the dials :-)

Welcome to the wonderful world of terrestrial signals. Keep the sunny side of the dials pointing upwards... :)


APATHY ERROR: Don't bother striking any key.

Does fog effect signal reception? Fog has been bad on the Gulf Coast the last two nights and my normally good signals from New Orleans have been near zero especially in the mornings when its dense.

It can kill it. I had such dense fog one morning, couldn't see 2 houses away, and totally wreaked havoc with my signals. But 'normal' fog isn't ever a problem for me. That day was just unusual

I use a silver sensor antenna i got in the tallahassee area. I was using the new version that phillips has that has VHF dipoles and a built in amp. I can get ABC and CBS no problem but I could not pick up NBC. WTWC is broadcasting digitally on channel 2 and I got nothing but multipath interference. Doesnt appear rabbit ears are gonna work for me, even though i live only 17 miles from the tower. What am i to do?

Hello all,
Newbee here. I have a 50' telescoping tower and am looking for a source for 18 or 20 gauge guy wire in 100' lengths...(a couple of the guy wires will be over 50' feet long) all the guy wire I can find is in 50' lengths...can anyone point me to a source? I have tried all of the sites that come up in a google search and no luck. Also, I am looking to buy a UHF antenna to replace one that is 10 years old...the signals I want are about 110 miles away...I currently have a UHF 59 element deep fringe (unknown brand) at 43 feet and have been quite successful pulling in these long range signals. (I seem to be in a sweet spot for reception) Signal quality has steadily declined in the past several years and the antenna has taken a beating by hurricanes. With this telescoping tower I will be able to lower it to help prevent damage. I'm using a winegard 8780 preamp. I am considering the 91XG...would like to hear from users of this antenna. Can anyone offer real world comparisons of the 91XG, Antennacraft MXU59, Winegard PR-9032 and Winegard HD9095P?
Is there something better?

Can anyone offer real world comparisons of the 91XG, Antennacraft MXU59, Winegard PR-9032 and Winegard HD9095P?

I'd do a search on those antennas and see what you can find. My experience is that the 91XG is a top performer, although I haven't tried any of the other antennas you list. Durability may be a factor for some, though I haven't seen a problem in 18 months of operation. Real-world comparisons are typically worthless due to the variable nature of reception - you cannot place two antennas in exactly the same place at exactly the same time, and thus you cannot know for certain that one antenna is better than the other without knowing all the variables that might impact reception (and most are unknowable to the average person.) Computer modeling is the best way to know which antenna is the best, verified by satisfied customers. (In other words, if computer models show that antenna X gets the best reception, but almost everyone who tries it has nothing but problems, you should avoid antenna X.)

If you're getting good results with your current antenna, odds are good you don't need a top-of-the-line model, and any of the ones you listed would work okay.

If it were me, I'd get the 91XG and be happy.

Hello all,
Newbee here. I have a 50' telescoping tower and am looking for a source for 18 or 20 gauge guy wire in 100' lengths...(a couple of the guy wires will be over 50' feet long) all the guy wire I can find is in 50' lengths...can anyone point me to a source? I have tried all of the sites that come up in a google search and no luck. Also, I am looking to buy a UHF antenna to replace one that is 10 years old...the signals I want are about 110 miles away...I currently have a UHF 59 element deep fringe (unknown brand) at 43 feet and have been quite successful pulling in these long range signals. (I seem to be in a sweet spot for reception) Signal quality has steadily declined in the past several years and the antenna has taken a beating by hurricanes. With this telescoping tower I will be able to lower it to help prevent damage. I'm using a winegard 8780 preamp. I am considering the 91XG...would like to hear from users of this antenna. Can anyone offer real world comparisons of the 91XG, Antennacraft MXU59, Winegard PR-9032 and Winegard HD9095P?
Is there something better?

Would need more info on the tower before making any guy material recommendations,like brand,type(steel or aluminum),number of sections,etc.

As far as antennas,the 91XG would be the best of the group you mentioned,but it may make a difference depending on what specific channels you're after.Digital,analog,what are they,with call letters if you know?

Galvanized steel with 5 sections. Right now I'm still using analog only...here are the stations...looks like they are a little closer than I thought:
WLFL 22 WB RALEIGH NC 96.9
WPXU 35 i JACKSONVILLE NC 56.3
WFXI 8 FOX MOREHEAD CITY NC 47.4
WRDC 28 UPN DURHAM NC 81.0
WRAZ 50 FOX RALEIGH NC 81.0
WRAL 5 CBS RALEIGH NC 81.0

I assume these station either are or will go digital...so by the end of this year I hope to be digital.

Also I noticed that most often the recomendation on a preamp is Channel Master...are Winegards inferior to them?..just wondering.

Can anyone offer real world comparisons of the 91XG, Antennacraft MXU59, Winegard PR-9032 and Winegard HD9095P?
Is there something better?
Jesse,
It looks like at least one of the stations will be broadcasting using VHF(WFXI - 8), so I'd consider a good VHF/UHF Combo. The Winegard 8200P is a big sucker(177") and it is a very good antenna. It also has decent UHF specs. In my personal comparison with the 91XG, the 91 might, I say might, have been slightly better for UHF.

I also compared the 91 to a CM 4228, and it was basically a toss up.

Also I noticed that most often the recomendation on a preamp is Channel Master...are Winegards inferior to them?..just wondering.
Not necessarily. The CM's do have less noise which is important.
....jc

Also I noticed that most often the recomendation on a preamp is Channel Master...are Winegards inferior to them?..just wondering.

Winegards overload less - good if you're close to transmitters or FM stations. Channel Masters have lower noise which yields better results as long as it doesn't overload.

The Winegard 8200P is a big sucker(177") and it is a very good antenna. It also has decent UHF specs. In my personal comparison with the 91XG, the 91 might, I say might, have been slightly better for UHF.

I replaced my 8200P with a 91XG. Inside of 50 miles, it was a tossup. For long distance reception, the 91XG was the slam-dunk winner.

To get channel 8, a better choice would either be a single channel antenna, or a VHF-Hi only like the Winegard YA-1713. A lot of the 8200P's bulk is for lo-VHF that very few people will need.

I use a silver sensor antenna i got in the tallahassee area. I was using the new version that phillips has that has VHF dipoles and a built in amp. I can get ABC and CBS no problem but I could not pick up NBC. WTWC is broadcasting digitally on channel 2 and I got nothing but multipath interference. Doesnt appear rabbit ears are gonna work for me, even though i live only 17 miles from the tower. What am i to do? Just for the record, when I use the Silver Sensor with an added-on amp, I get practically everything from 40 miles out. When I tried that Philips antenna you mention, I got practically nothing (with the same conditions). The Radio Shack 15-1880 gets me the same results as the amped SS, and has pretty good working rabbit ears, too. Unfortunately, they might be hard to find now since they've been recently discontinued. But I don't really think either setup would help you much with major multipath problems anyway.

For anyone that hasn't purchased an antenna yet. See where your TV stations will wind up in 2009. It may make your decision for an antenna more difficult

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-2649A2.pdf

So can anyone give a source for 18 gauge guy wire in 100' lengths?

So can anyone give a source for 18 gauge guy wire in 100' lengths?

Just go to a hardware store and get galvanized or stainless steel wire rope(cable) and get each piece you need cut to length.The wire you're talking about sounds more like antenna mast guy wire.

Where on the tower are you going to attach the guy wire? Most multi-section steel crank-ups are designed to be free-standing.

The Winegard 8780 V/U preamp you now have indicates you already have a VHF antenna? It's a good amp.As long as it's functional,keep using it.Your antenna choices depend on whether you want/need the lowband 2-6 channels.

Also I noticed that most often the recomendation on a preamp is Channel Master...are Winegards inferior to them?..just wondering.

The Channel Master 7777 has high ratings due to extremely low noise figure. It's weakness is high gain that tends to cause overload when one or more of the signals are very strong. In most cases the gain is excessive. In rural areas it can't be beat.

The Winegard HDP-269 is slightly higher noise figure than the 7777, but it's gain is modest. It is the best preamp for areas that are close to one or more TV tower.

These are two extreme cases.

There are also models that do UHF only or VHF only preamplification. These may be selected in special cases. I have a Winegard AP-4700 that I use on an all channel antenna. It amplifies UHF but bypasses VHF. I am 8 miles from the Albany towers. The HDP-269 was not available when I bought the AP-4700.

There are also models that do UHF only or VHF only preamplification.

Choose carefully! Winegards amplify one band and pass the other. Channel Masters amplify one band and block the other.

Thus, if you need UHF amplification, but want VHF to "pass through" the amp, you'll have to buy a Winegard.

The winegard I have amplifies VHF at 17 db and UHF at 28 db. I already have a VHF antenna. My tower is a telescoping that is pushed up by hand. I am indeed looking for antenna mast guy wire, but I cannot find it in a length longer than 50' anywhere.

...I have a 50' telescoping tower and am looking for a source for 18 or 20 gauge guy wire in 100' lengths...(a couple of the guy wires will be over 50' feet long) all the guy wire I can find is in 50' lengths...can anyone point me to a source?

I think that when Channel Master furnishes a 1000' case of guy wire, the 20 coils are continuous, so if you ordered six coils, you would be getting a three hundred foot continuous length, as long as they did not cut it into six separate coils.

Try calling Mark Electronics in Beltsville, MD. I think I once bought a box of twenty coils from them that were continuous, and the person you talk to there will probably be the same person who actually pulls the order, so if they still stock it that way, he may be able to make sure that they don't needlessly sever your purchase into separate coils.

I recently made the jump to HDTV and have a triple LNB satellite dish.....I want to be able to get the local channels without giving Direct TV more of my hard earned money....is there any difference between them..or are they all about the same...I saw an RCA antenna that was about seventy dollars and advertised that it could be installed in minutes......any help is appreciated....Rich

I recently made the jump to HDTV and have a triple LNB satellite dish.....I want to be able to get the local channels without giving Direct TV more of my hard earned money....is there any difference between them..or are they all about the same...I saw an RCA antenna that was about seventy dollars and advertised that it could be installed in minutes......any help is appreciated....Rich

Each installation is unique. It depends primarily on the distance to the TV towers and the terrain between you and the towers. Next you need to learn if your location requires a UHF only anttenna, or a VHF/UHF combo. The best location for an antenna is on the roof, the second choice is in the attic. Atttic installations usually require a larger antenna to make up for the signal loss through the roof. Set top antennas are fussy and may require constant adjustment if they work at all.

In many areas a Channel Master 3016 works fine for VHF/UHF and costs about $30. UHF only antennas run from $20-$50.

Go to antennaweb.org and enter your address. It will tell you most of what you need to know about the type of antenna will work properly.

Just for the record, when I use the Silver Sensor with an added-on amp, I get practically everything from 40 miles out. When I tried that Philips antenna you mention, I got practically nothing (with the same conditions). The Radio Shack 15-1880 gets me the same results as the amped SS, and has pretty good working rabbit ears, too. Unfortunately, they might be hard to find now since they've been recently discontinued. But I don't really think either setup would help you much with major multipath problems anyway.

You think the RS's rabbit ears do any improvement compared to the phillips antenna with the rabbit ears? How is the 15-1880 compare to the old 15-1862 that i read really good reviews for? thanks

Every Philips and RCA set top antenna I tried didn't even come close to the 15-1880. Maybe if you're real close to the transmitters, but not for me. If you search this forum you will find that the 3 indoor set top type antennas most people have had success with are the 15-1880, the Silver Sensor and the $15.00 Radio Shack double bowtie. And even though most of their stuff sucks, some people have reported some success with the Terk HDTVa (but NOT the un-amped HDTVi version. Terk also makes an amped huge bowtie model which may work for some who are close to the towers, but I've never really known of anyone on this forum who has tried it). The 15-1862 is just an older, no longer available version of the 15-1880, although I think that the amp may have been a tad stronger. They do say that the 15-1880 can still be found in stores, just not from the website. You'll probably have to do what myself and everyone else around here has had to do, and that is try as many as you can until you find one that's satisfactory, but make sure you can return them with no problem.

Does fog effect signal reception? Fog has been bad on the Gulf Coast the last two nights and my normally good signals from New Orleans have been near zero especially in the mornings when its dense.
fog does effect signals up around 2.4GHz but its not usually a problem at the frequencies in the tv broadcast band. one reason microwave ovens use frequencies up there is because water absorbs them so well. moisture can effect your grounding system and as another post has mentions temperature inversions can produce tropospheric ducting of the signals over very long distances.

Is anyone using the Research Communications type 9250 HDTV ('F' sockets) preamplifier? Specs are as follows:
BAND - UHF
FREQUENCY - 470-862 MHz. (USA 470-800 MHz.)
NOISE FIGURE - 0.4 dB.
GAIN - 20 dB.
FLATNESS - +/- 1 dB.
MAX. OUTPUT - 127 dB microvolts.
MATCHING - Return loss 14 dB. V.S.W.R. 1.5:1
IMPEDANCE - 75 ohms.
CONNECTORS - F sockets.
POWER - +12V. DC @ 70 ma approx.

Needs more cow bell!

Is anyone using the Research Communications type 9250 HDTV ('F' sockets) preamplifier? Specs are as follows:
BAND - UHF
FREQUENCY - 470-862 MHz. (USA 470-800 MHz.)
NOISE FIGURE - 0.4 dB.
GAIN - 20 dB.
FLATNESS - +/- 1 dB.
MAX. OUTPUT - 127 dB microvolts.
MATCHING - Return loss 14 dB. V.S.W.R. 1.5:1
IMPEDANCE - 75 ohms.
CONNECTORS - F sockets.
POWER - +12V. DC @ 70 ma approx.

I finaly got around to setting up my HD setup, and I'm using an internal antenna connected to a PC for the reception... I have a signal strength meter on the PC which is giving me readings in mdb - some stations are negative, some positive. Can someone give me an idea what sort of numbers I should look for?

Hey Bluestraw

What hardware and software are you using in the PC to have a signal strength meter ?



I finaly got around to setting up my HD setup, and I'm using an internal antenna connected to a PC for the reception... I have a signal strength meter on the PC which is giving me readings in mdb - some stations are negative, some positive. Can someone give me an idea what sort of numbers I should look for?

I'm using a Vbox Cats Eye USB, and it comes with a handy little utility for measuring signal strength and quality. You just enter the channel #, and it provides realtime stats on the signal!

Bluestraw,
Go over to the HTPC forum and someone there can probably tell you what the Cats Eye utility is actually displaying. Usually the "dB" and "%" numbers that DTV tuners display is not really a signal strenght or signal/noise value, but rather one derived from the tuner's evaluation of the A/D processing, and displayed in some rather meaningless fashion.

Will do - thanks!

Is anyone using the Research Communications type 9250 HDTV ('F' sockets) preamplifier?.

I installed one of these last summer. It replaced an AP4700. I got a 5-10 point improvement in signal strength reading. A snowy analog had much less snow. In the direction of a strong signal I have overload with either preamp. John

ctdish (John)
I would like to know where I could purchase a 9250 preamp.

Also,
I would like opinions on which of these pre-amps would be most effective:
Winegard 8780 - 28db UHF with noise figure of 2.7db
or
Research Comm 9250 - 20db UHF with noise figure of 0.4db

What I'm asking is which factor is THE most important...gain or noise factor...will the higher gain of the Wingard with higher noise be comparable to the 9250 with lower gain but better noise figure. If this is a dumb question, please forgive my ignorance...I am just starting to learn. Thanks.

Hi Neil

Can you specifically reference the particular post that details this subject with a link for us ? Thank you.



Bluestraw,
Go over to the HTPC forum and someone there can probably tell you what the Cats Eye utility is actually displaying. Usually the "dB" and "%" numbers that DTV tuners display is not really a signal strenght or signal/noise value, but rather one derived from the tuner's evaluation of the A/D processing, and displayed in some rather meaningless fashion.

ctdish (John)
I would like to know where I could purchase a 9250 preamp.
I purchased it from Research Comm. I E-Mailed them and they will accept a credit card.
In many cases 28 dB is too much and the preamp clipps which can destroy reception on most digital channels. In my case 20 dB is too much if I aim at a strong station. Some preamps sold for digital reception have about 10 dB of gain.
If the local noise received by the antenna is low a lower noise figure is the way to go. John

Hi all!

I am new to this forum and am an avid HD viewer. I currently have an OTA only set up using a Winegard Sensar antenna that was installed when I had Voom. I am about 25 miles west of Washington, DC and pick up those stations pretty well. I am also about 45 miles southwest of Baltimore and occasionally pick up those stations (its about a 40 degree difference in angle between the cities). Anyway, I would like to upgrade to a better antenna such as a CM 4221 or 4228. I was hoping to angle it so as to pick up both DC and Baltimore without needing to rotate the antenna. I have two questions: (1) What antenna would you recommend for trying to pick up both cities? and (2) Is self-installation of the antenna hard? I was hoping that I could install the antenna simply by mounting the new antenna and attaching the existing coaxial setup to the new antenna. Does this make sense?

thanks in advance for any advice

What I'm asking is which factor is THE most important...gain or noise factor...will the higher gain of the Wingard with higher noise be comparable to the 9250 with lower gain but better noise figure. If this is a dumb question, please forgive my ignorance...I am just starting to learn. Thanks.

All tuners have some resistance to the incoming signal, commonly referred to as the noise factor of the receiver. For typical NTSC tuners, this is around 10dB on UHF. That's not a bad number to start with. Then you have insertion loss from each F connector of around .5dB. Splitters cost you 3.5dB. And then there is line loss between the antenna and the receiver, which varies by cable type.

Add all those up and you have the noise you must overcome in amplifying a signal such that the signal received by the tuner's decoder is no weaker than that received at the antenna itself. Anything above this is wasted, as the automatic gain control circuit will just chop it down to size.

Preamps themselves create some noise in amplification, and the higher this number, the less like the original signal the amplified signal will be.

So, as long as you're under or at the noise floor for your receiving system, the amplification is more important. Once you reach that point, any more amplification is moot and noise factor becomes more important. If you've done everything right and your cable length is under 250' or so, 20dB is more than enough.

Of course, if you only need 1/10 the received signal power to lock onto the signal, any amplification is a waste of time. The above really only applies to a "worst case" scenario, and if your signals are stronger than your receive system's resistance, then you only need to make up the difference between the two.

I'm sure someone who knows more than me can convert all the above into dBmv, which is what really matters, but I haven't taken the time to learn that part of antenna lore yet.

Is it possible to catch a digital television broadcast on the same frequency as an analog television broadcast? There is a local station that is broadcasting on UHF -46 (tower within 15 miles) that I pick up. I am interested in catching the digital broadcast from a station 60 miles away, but they are broadcasting on UHF-46. They will be moving to VHF - 9 in 2009, but for now they are broadcasting on UHF-46. I am able to catch a digital station broadcasting 60 miles away in the same direction, but they are broadcasting on UHF 34. Thanks...

In general if you can see even a very snowy analog channel with the antenna aimed at a digital station, the digital station will be unreceivable. John

Also,
I would like opinions on which of these pre-amps would be most effective:
Winegard 8780 - 28db UHF with noise figure of 2.7db
or
Research Comm 9250 - 20db UHF with noise figure of 0.4db

What I'm asking is which factor is THE most important...gain or noise factor...will the higher gain of the Wingard with higher noise be comparable to the 9250 with lower gain but better noise figure. If this is a dumb question, please forgive my ignorance...I am just starting to learn. Thanks.


The question is simple, the answer is not. It most cases the lower noise figure wins. Higher gain wins when the feedline loss is high. Theorectically, with the two preamps listed the feedline loss would have to be about 14 db or more for the 8780 to beat the 9250. Then there is a third factor, the black body radiation from the earth. It radiates noise at 300 degrees Kelvin, which equates to about a 3 db noise figure. That fact minimizes the theoretical advantage of the lower noise figure when the antenna is aimed at the horizon. The super low noise figures are most useful with satellite reception where black body radiation is negligable.

I get 5 local HD & SD digitals. 2 of the 5 channels have dramatic signal strength variance if a split the signal.

Here are the channels I receive courtesy of AntennaWeb.org:

* yellow - uhf KVEW-DT 44.1 ABC KENNEWICK WA 149° 12.6 44
* yellow - uhf KTNW-DT 31.1 PBS RICHLAND WA 148° 12.6 38
* green - uhf KNDU-DT 25.1 NBC RICHLAND WA 149° 12.6 26
* red - uhf KEPR-DT 19.1 CBS PASCO WA 162° 12.6 18
* blue - vhf KFFX-DT 11.1 FOX PENDLETON OR 105° 66.5 8

When the signal from the antenna is not split, here are the signal strengths I get:
44.1 - High 70's
31.1 - 90's
25.1 - 90's
19.1 - Mid 60's
11.1 - Mid 60's

Here's the problem...when I split the antenna source signal, channels 11.1 and 19.1 have a major signal strength drop(from mid-60's to mid 20's) and this causes occasional audio dropouts.

What kind of booster/preamp do I need so it doesn't boost the other signals too high but does boost 11.1 and 19.1 to they are strong enough?

Thanks!

Also, I would like opinions on which of these pre-amps would be most effective:

Winegard 8780 - 28db UHF with noise figure of 2.7db
or
Research Comm 9250 - 20db UHF with noise figure of 0.4db

What I'm asking is which factor is THE most important...gain or noise factor...will the higher gain of the Wingard with higher noise be comparable to the 9250 with lower gain but better noise figure. If this is a dumb question, please forgive my ignorance...I am just starting to learn. Thanks.
Preamp Noise Figure and gain interact. The noise temperature Tn of two amplifiers in cascade is the noise temperature of the first plus the noise temperature of the second divided by the gain of the first:

Tn = T1 + T2/G1.

To convert Noise Figure(f) to noise temperature (Tn):

Tn = 290((10^(f/10)) - 1)

The 2.7 dB preamp has a noise temperature of 250K
The 0.4 dB preamp has a noise temperature of 28K.

Let's say that the Noise Figure of your receiver is 10 dB and your RG6 cable
loss is 2.5 dB for total Noise Figure of 12.5 dB. The receiver noise temperature
is 4867K

Then the system noise temperature for the 2.7 dB NF 28 dB gain preamp is:
250 + 4867/631 (28 dB) = 258K

The system noise temperature for the 0.4 dB NF 20 dB gain preamp is:
28 + 4867/100 (20 dB) = 76K

To convert from noise temperature back to Noise Figure:

NF = 10 log(1 + Tn/290)

So the system Noise Figure for the Winegard preamp is 2.76 dB and the system Noise Figure for the Research Comm preamp is 1.01 dB.

With the antenna pointing at the horizon (290K antenna temperature), the Research Comm preamp will give you 1.75 dB more signal to noise ratio.

Ron

Ron,
Throw in a dB or two of loss between the antenna and preamp to account for the balum, SWR mismatch and cable loss and see what the improvement would be. The amount of snow reductiion I saw was signacificant probably more than a 3 dB of SNR increase. Also if a UHF antenna is pointed at the ground it will receive the 290 deg K of noise power, but when pointed at the horizon only half of the main lobe is aimed at the ground so perhaps more like 145 deg of noise whould be picked up. John

I have a AD DB8 mounted about 25 ft outside. Rg6 cable and winegard 8200? preamp all running to my TV in the family room. Recently I have completed a bonus room upstairs above my garage that is a dedicated home theater room. My question is: is it possible to split my ota feed outside and run the other cable upstairs to my new room without defeating my preamp going to the family room? I don't care if the upstairs is amplified, but I do want to keep the amplified signal going in the family room. With the power supply for the preamp being inside in the family room, this would make things alot easier, but if I remember right, I think I've read somewhere that you can't split the signal before the preamp power supply. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

Deno

I have a AD DB8 mounted about 25 ft outside. Rg6 cable and winegard 8200? preamp all running to my TV in the family room. Recently I have completed a bonus room upstairs above my garage that is a dedicated home theater room. My question is: is it possible to split my ota feed outside and run the other cable upstairs to my new room without defeating my preamp going to the family room? I don't care if the upstairs is amplified, but I do want to keep the amplified signal going in the family room. With the power supply for the preamp being inside in the family room, this would make things alot easier, but if I remember right, I think I've read somewhere that you can't split the signal before the preamp power supply. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

Deno

Look for a splitter that passes power from one output back to the input. They are common for satellite systems. Make sure it's rated down to the lowest frequency that you want to use. Channel 2 is 54 mhz. Channel 7 is 174 mhz. Channel 14 is 470 mhz.

Is it possible to catch a digital television broadcast on the same frequency as an analog television broadcast? There is a local station that is broadcasting on UHF -46 (tower within 15 miles) that I pick up. I am interested in catching the digital broadcast from a station 60 miles away, but they are broadcasting on UHF-46. They will be moving to VHF - 9 in 2009, but for now they are broadcasting on UHF-46. I am able to catch a digital station broadcasting 60 miles away in the same direction, but they are broadcasting on UHF 34. Thanks...

Yes, but the digital signal must be the same or stronger than the analog signal. That will be very difficult with the closer channel only 15 miles away.

If you happen to have some terrain between you and the 15 mile station but are clear to the 60 mile station and can use nulls in your antenna to knock down the strength of the closer signal then it is still a long shot.

Its been awhile since I posted about this but I have a situation where I get better signal levels off the side of chm4228 antenna. I live about 60 miles from the LA Mt Wilson transmitters that most of my digital OTA comes from. I also have a high power Pbs station just 13 miles away in almost direct line to the future LA stations. For a long time now I have always figured that when I point my antenna straight at the LA stations the local PBS station was overpowering my distant ones. I am using a chm 7777 pre-amp because without it I get nothing. I also have a rat shack antenna rotor so I can move it inside. In playing around some time ago I was trying pointing my anttena towards the south to see if I could possibly get any San Deigo stations and I found that my LA stations actualy came in stronger when pointint the antenna almost exactly 90 deg. ofline to the south. I always figured that I was just getting a signal off the side lobes of the attenna vs a bounced signal off a hillside. Well I orderd two Join Tenna's , one for ch26 the digital PBS feed and one for ch24 the anolog output of of the same station. I installed then as traps per the instructions on the box comming straight of the antenna and then feeding the Pre-amp and set out to do some testing. To my amazement they really seem to make almost no difference at all accept the signal levels for the trapped channels are slightly lower but still very much there. I would have thought they would be gone alltogether. So now my thoughts are that maybe I just get a better signal bounced or multipathed of the side of the antenna and thats all I can do. Actualy it workes out pretty good all of the LA stations read between 70~80% using my Divco Fusion PC card as a reference. Maybe I will try a different pre-amp like the new wingard low noise one that people are talking about but I sorta think I might be waisting my time.
By the way I am mostly trying to get rid of some microstudder problems that I believe are signal related but I cant be sure.

I have a AD DB8 mounted about 25 ft outside. Rg6 cable and winegard 8200? preamp all running to my TV in the family room. Recently I have completed a bonus room upstairs above my garage that is a dedicated home theater room. My question is: is it possible to split my ota feed outside and run the other cable upstairs to my new room without defeating my preamp going to the family room? I don't care if the upstairs is amplified, but I do want to keep the amplified signal going in the family room. With the power supply for the preamp being inside in the family room, this would make things alot easier, but if I remember right, I think I've read somewhere that you can't split the signal before the preamp power supply. Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

Deno
You can split the cable interconnecting the Preamp to its Power Module anywhere along the way, using a "Satellite RF Splitter".
The "D.C. PASS" feature permits the power to go through the splitter, whereas the usual TV/Cable RF Splitter will not.

If you use the R-S 16-2568 or Zenith ZDS5010 (Lowes, et.al.), both ports are "D.C. PASS".
Make sure you don't have a short on the new cable run or in one of the components
prior to connecting it to the new Satellite RF Spitter.
[TV inputs and RF Splitters aren't supposed to short out the D.C. signal...but I've seen some that do.....]

You could also use a Satellite RF Splitter that has D.C. PASS only on one port,
such as Fry's (www.outpost.com) p/n 2420680,
guaranteeing that D.C. is not passed down the new cable run: http://shop3.outpost.com/product/2420680?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

This subject was discussed earlier, you might want to look at the jpg's I prepared for a similiar arrangement:

i have a problem, every time my furnace kicks on, i lose my uhf channels. this also happens if i use my microwave or anything that uses a lot of power. does anyone know how i can fix this.

my set up is radioshack 12 footer and in the attic, also i have the pre amp and power supply up there, would i be better off if i had my power supply down by my tv? and is it normal to have better reception at night?

Thanks for all your help, this is my first post but i've been reading these forums for years.

i have a problem, every time my furnace kicks on, i lose my uhf channels. this also happens if i use my microwave or anything that uses a lot of power. does anyone know how i can fix this.

my set up is radioshack 12 footer and in the attic, also i have the pre amp and power supply up there, would i be better off if i had my power supply down by my tv? and is it normal to have better reception at night?

Your first problem is most likely impulse noise. You can start by making sure your amplifier and television are plugged into a separate circuit than the other objects you're using.

The power supply for a preamp should be as close to the receiving TV as possible.

I get much better reception at night than during the day. Lots of reasons have been proposed for why this might be, but it just is the way it is. My improvements start at sunset and get better over the next hour or so.

i have a problem, every time my furnace kicks on, i lose my uhf channels. this also happens if i use my microwave or anything that uses a lot of power. does anyone know how i can fix this.

my set up is radioshack 12 footer and in the attic, also i have the pre amp and power supply up there, would i be better off if i had my power supply down by my tv? and is it normal to have better reception at night?

Thanks for all your help, this is my first post but i've been reading these forums for years.Best to have your pre amp power supply as close to the antenna as possible and put any spitters you may use after the power supply. That way any losses caused by splitters and long cable runs will be after the amplified signal. And use cable with better shielding, so you don't pick up so much noise from other appliances.

Reception is almost always better at night. Especially for distant stations. It doesn't make much difference for station that are at full power and within, oh, about 45 miles.

I live east of Orlando FL, actually Merritt Island. I currently have two antennas in the attic; a high gain UHF (Channelmaster 4228) and a small YAGI cut for VHF 11. This is because WNBC comes in on channel 11 for HDTV and all others are on UHF. The two antennas feed a Channel master 7777 preamp and then a Spaun multiplexor. I know if I put the antennas on the roof all will be better except with my HOA, who have no say in the matter. I am an officer in the HOA, so i try to be nice and i don't like the look of the antenna on the roof. I may be forced there though.

I get between 77% and 100% signal strength on 12 digital channels, except for one important one, WCBS. I get no signal there. I do not understand why since all transmitters (the ones I care about are at the same location (Bithlo) and about 35 miles away over Florida Terrain (nothing high).

I did remove a section of radiant barrier (silver foil) and that improved the received SS by almost 30% to its current level.

To get WCBS (UHF 58) I have a Jointenna on order. I will then use a small directional UHF in the attic and tie it in via the jointenna and specifically aim it to get a maximum signal on UHF 58. Probably nbeed to take down more radiant barrier. Total cable runs to the sets are about 100 feet from antenna to mlpxr to sets.

I will post how I make out.



I have been trying to order a jointenna, but can't find a web site to order it from.
If you could give me the web site you order your from I would be thankful.

Thank you.
Hocken

I have been trying to order a jointenna, but can't find a web site to order it from.
If you could give me the web site you order your from I would be thankful.

Thank you.
Hocken
Here's one place:
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/Jointennas.htm

With the antenna pointing at the horizon (290K antenna temperature), the Research Comm preamp will give you 1.75 dB more signal to noise ratio.

Which is useful information but does not resolve the question of which amplifier is better for this customer in this application. The signal entering the tuner coming from the Winegard preamp will be 1.75dB "noisier", but will also be 8dB stronger. Whether that is better or worse than the signal that would be coming from the Research Comm preamp will also depend on the so-called "sensitivity" of the receiver's tuner. It may perform more reliably with an input signal level of -75dBm and an S/N ratio of 18dB from a Winegard preamp than with a signal level of -83dBm but an S/N ratio of about 20dB from the Research Comm preamp. I would wager that in more instances, the Research Comm output signals would be better, but most residential users don't have the means to measure the receiver input signal strength to venture an informed guess on the subject.

I always look with at least some suspicion at the specs on this device, since it says it has a maximum output of 127dB microvolts, which, if I'm not confusing an uppercase "V" with a lower case "v" (meaning referenced volts versus unreferenced ones), then it claims to have the same maximum output as the industry-standard rack mounted strip amplifiers that have a big sucker semiconductor for their power amplification stage.

And of course, the "maximum output" level of any broadband amplifier plummets with multiple, comparable strength input signals. That is not often a problem for me, since I can measure and trap out the excessively strong signals, but most residential users are not equipped to measure and attenuate them.

A year or two ago, when the Research Comm preamplifier was touted here in other threads, some of the users reported that theirs had suffered from overload problems, but their conclusions may have been just guesses, and it is possible that any overloads they experienced were of tuners that were overloaded by the level of the undesired, excessively strong signals that entered them along with the desired, weak ones, rather than by clipping or intermodulation in the Research Comm preamp itself.

Figuring out or even estimating the effects of preamplifier intermodulation distortion on weaker broadcast signals is impractical and nearly impossible. Manufacturer's published amplifier specs for various intermodulation byproducts are useful for engineering a cable TV distribution system, where all of the signals are at the same level, but an intermodulation byproduct of two strong carriers in a preamp that falls in-band on a weak signal can decimate it, even though such a preamp would appear to be operating safely within its published input/output parameters.

i have a problem, every time my furnace kicks on, i lose my uhf channels. this also happens if i use my microwave or anything that uses a lot of power. does anyone know how i can fix this.

my set up is radioshack 12 footer and in the attic, also i have the pre amp and power supply up there, would i be better off if i had my power supply down by my tv? and is it normal to have better reception at night?
Sounds like you have a problem in the 120VAC system, such as a poor connection in the power wiring.
RF performance wise, it shouldn't matter where the Power Module is located, the insertion loss is the same.

First thing to do is check the Power Module's AC outlet to see if the voltage drops when someone turns on the microwave, heater, etc.
If it drops more than a few volts, you might have a wiring connection that isn't cinched up tight somewhere between the AC outlet, one of several daisy-chained AC outlets/switches and the house breaker box.

Moving the Power Module to a different location, such as next to the TV, may succeed in moving away from this problematic circuit. You can also use a Power Strip/Surge Protector that has EMI/RFI Filtering capability, such as some (but not all) of the Tripplite models:
http://shop3.outpost.com/product/3667575?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
Many Power Strip/Surge Protectors do not provide EMI/RFI Filter capabiity, so read the fine print.

I also would not rule out interference leaking in from the heater motor and microwave. You may simply have a poorly installed F-type connector somewhere along the coax downlead....or you may need double (or quad) shielded cable.

Can I split an OTA signal. In other words, I have two HD receivers and one Silver Sensor, can I split the signal and use it for both HD receivers.

Yes, but realize that you will be lowering your Silver Sensor's signal strength by about 3.5dbs.

I've done exactly the same thing and I have no problem.

Gary

I have two Silver Sensors and an HD-DVR. How do I hook up both antenna's to the one receiver using a Zenith amplifer. I hoping I will get better reception with the two antennas instead of one.


I tried taking the cable from the antenna out on the amplifer and running it into the splitter and then connecting the the two antennas to the splitter outputs. That didn't work.

Thanks!

I bought a signal joiner to join the two signals from both my Square Shooters. They join together and then go to my preamp. Then the signal goes to my DirecTV switch to combine it with the SAT signal. It has worked very well for me with my three HDTiVos and VBOX Cat's Eye USB-A-3560 ATSC tuner.

Guys, just got my first HDTV couple days ago for house on the river.
Currently have standard Dishnetwork hooked up. Vizio LCD has ATSC tuner built-in. I was wanting to set things up to get OTA reception of local HD channels without having to splurge for the HD upgrade on dishnetwork for the time being. As this is not primary residence.
I would be able to install outside antenna on roof.
I am new to this HD stuff, but what I am learning is most channels on UHF
and will benefit from pre-amp most likely. Is rotor needed?
Several stations are 20-30 miles away, I think.
This residence is 8 miles east of Washington,NC

Should I look at radioshack or Lowes and just get biggest antenna I am comfortable with. I understand bigger is usually better and higher is better.

Any advice or if more details needed, I will provide.
Or would I be better off to post this on the reception forum for eastern NC.

Thanks in advance for any help.

I have a really newbie question, so sorry if it sounds dumb. But what in the world is the difference between a Preamp and an Amp? Are they two different terms for the same thing?

Thanks
Pre-Amp or HT Processor - Box that contains controls for manipulating the sound, like volume balance etc. Also contains inputs for your CD player, DVD player, etc. and a selector switch. Some Preamps do not amplify the signal at all. Others amplify it to a small degree

Power Amp - Cables lead from the Preamp to the power amp. This is the device that actually amplifies your signal. You attach your speakers to the leads on the power amp.

Integrated Amplifier- PreAmp and Power Amp in a single box.

I have a working antenna system :) but I think I can squeeze out just a little more signal strength if I can minimize a cable run by moving a power supply.

The power supply in question is now at point A in the diagram, just where it should be, upstream of the Join-Tenna and UHF-VHF combiner. But I can make a cable run a lot shorter, and through newer RG-6 cable as opposed to older RG-59 cable, if I can move the power supply to point B in the diagram.

Is it possible to do this by blocking the DC power at points C and D? And if so, would the "DC block" 15-1259 from Radio Shack do the job?

(The reasons for my cable constraints result from this being a 1906 farmhouse where cables were strung at different times, and not in the right places to be accessible to power where I'd like it. Can't change those until we gut the place to the walls, maybe 25 years from now.)

Also, if this is a really stupid question, please forgive.

willie

I have a working antenna system :) but I think I can squeeze out just a little more signal strength if I can minimize a cable run by moving a power supply.

The power supply in question is now at point A in the diagram, just where it should be, upstream of the Join-Tenna and UHF-VHF combiner. But I can make a cable run a lot shorter, and through newer RG-6 cable as opposed to older RG-59 cable, if I can move the power supply to point B in the diagram.

Is it possible to do this by blocking the DC power at points C and D? And if so, would the "DC block" 15-1259 from Radio Shack do the job?

That would work only if the VHF/UHF Joiner and the JoinTenna have DC PASS capability on the ports going to the Preamp.

Does anyone know if the JoinTenna has DC PASS capability on one or both ports???
You can check with a Volt-Ohm-Meter...

I have a quick OTA antenna question. I am west of Washington DC (about 25 miles away) and Baltimore (about 45 miles away) and there is about a 40 degree spread in their geographic location. I want to put up either a CM 4221 or a CM 4228 and try to capture both locations without a rotor. Is this doable? If so, which of the two antennas would your recommend?

thanks in advance for any advice!

I get much better reception at night than during the day. Lots of reasons have been proposed for why this might be, but it just is the way it is. My improvements start at sunset and get better over the next hour or so.

This is interesting to me. Can you share some of the more popular reasons people have proposed?

See the section "Tropospheric Enhancement" on the following page:

http://home.cogeco.ca/%7Evem3ont22/propagation/tr-modes.htm

excellent! Thanks!

I have a quick OTA antenna question. I am west of Washington DC (about 25 miles away) and Baltimore (about 45 miles away) and there is about a 40 degree spread in their geographic location. I want to put up either a CM 4221 or a CM 4228 and try to capture both locations without a rotor. Is this doable? If so, which of the two antennas would your recommend?

thanks in advance for any advice!My recommendation would be the 4221. If all station are UHF it should have plenty of gain. The 4228 is what I have, but the 4221 is less directional.

If anyone is looking to purchase a Xg91 antenna here are links to the lowest prices I could find:

http://www.gainsaver.com/bNetStore/Templates/Site/Template1_BCA/TplDefault.aspx?TCode=53&FCode=15&Param1=3&Param2=0&Param3=All&Param9=1&Param10=14682 ($55.99)
http://www.audio-discounters.com/xg-91.html ($57.48)

http://www.ambientweather.com/dbxg91.html ($57.86)

http://www.electronicsoutfitter.com/store/XG-91.html ($63.23)

I recently purchased one and paid full price....ggrrrrrr! I just wanted to post this info to keep anyone else from spending too much $$.

I have a quick OTA antenna question. I am west of Washington DC (about 25 miles away) and Baltimore (about 45 miles away) and there is about a 40 degree spread in their geographic location. I want to put up either a CM 4221 or a CM 4228 and try to capture both locations without a rotor. Is this doable? If so, which of the two antennas would your recommend?

thanks in advance for any advice!
How come they don't have a round antenna that can pick up stations from all directions? :D

How come they don't have a round antenna that can pick up stations from all directions? :D

The desired signal comes from a single direction. Multipath, noise, and interference come from all directions. The best results occur when the desired TV channel is significantly stronger than the undesired signals. By definition, an antenna that works equally well in all directions has no gain.

Anyone interested in some free antennas. CM4228, XG91 and a Antennacraft 92 element UHF/Vhf antenna plus a CM uhf preamp. Only catch is you have to get them off the roof. If interested PM me. Thanks.

My recommendation would be the 4221. If all station are UHF it should have plenty of gain. The 4228 is what I have, but the 4221 is less directional.

Thanks! That's what I needed to here.

This is interesting to me. Can you share some of the more popular reasons people have proposed?


http://home.cogeco.ca/~dxinfo/tropo.html

Thanks firemantom!

Uh, theratpratrol, there are round omnidirectional antennas...

I saw this on E-Bay and was wondering if anyone out there have used this.
I'm planning to install it in the attic if there's a positive feedback.

HDTV VHF UHF FM OUTDOOR ANTENNA w/ ROTOR
NEW IN THE BOX. INCLUDES 360 ROTOR Item number: 5866520805

They don't provide the specs for the antenna itself, I would be leary.

I purchased a Winegard SquareShooter Antenna. I am about 22 miles from the main transmission tower in the San Franciso area. All I want are the HD channels and the specs on the antenna said that the non-amplified mode would work easily (range of 40- 50 miles quoted for UHF). I first mounted the antenna in the attic with a single layer of plywood and asphalt singles between the antenna and the open air. Figuring a 30% signal loss I thought I would still be OK. I could get channel 5.1 (CBS) and a few others. But not the main ABC, NBC and FOX digital channels (all are on UHF channels so I should stil be able to get them).

The next move I made was to move he antenna to the roof. I mounted it to the chimney and pointed it where antennaweb said to point it. Even tried copying the neighbors poining direction. I got worse signal than before. I checked the cables and just about every component I have and they all checked out. One strange experience was that I connected the antenna using the same cables as on the roof and pointed it out my front door. I got better reception than on the roof. But that exercisce did confirm that my neighbor's pointing direction was more accurate than that from antennaweb.

So my next move was to call Winegard. They were very helpful and suggested I buy an external amplifier which I did. Hooked it up and yes indeed the signal went from a 19 out of 100 on the station I could get (36.1 I believe) to about a 40. Interesting I had better luck getting channels that were supposed to be 90 degrees from where I was pointing the antenna. But alas, I could not get any of the main channels (CBS, etc.) from the main tower. I could get some but not all.

So before I put a big ugly antenna on my roof, does anyone have any insight into what is going on? And what I should do? Thanks.

Do you have line-of-site from your home to the transmission towers?

If not, and you "had better luck getting channels that were supposed to be
90 degrees from where I was pointing the antenna," that sounds like multipath
reception.

That is, your stronger signal is actually a reflection of the main signal from the tower.

You say that you're 22 miles from the main transmission tower. Are there obstacles in
between you and the tower - buildings, mountains????

If so, it's multipath.

Hope this helps.

Gary

I need some advice on which indoor antenna I should buy. My apartment is going to be about 32 miles away from the broadcast stations. Are there any indoor antennas I can use and pick up HD channels that far away?

I need some advice on which indoor antenna I should buy. My apartment is going to be about 32 miles away from the broadcast stations. Are there any indoor antennas I can use and pick up HD channels that far away?

Try the Silver Sensor -- it may work. It's highly directional and a bit flimsy but some people swear by it. You can get it at Amazon.com and other places.

I live in Chicago and am currently using an indoor antenna. I get great reception for all channels except WBBM (CBS), which was expected. Well with the NCAA tourney coming up I really want to be able to receive their signal. Over the weekend I took my indoor antenna outside to just measure the signal strength and see if it would be worth it to go with an outside antenna. To my surprise I went from 0 signal strength to mid 90s on WBBM. This was with no fine tuning, just sticking an antenna outside. So now I am definitely getting an antenna for outside I just need suggestions. I live about 2 miles away from the towers and I need to receive both UHF and VHF.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance for the help

Nolan

Any ideas? Thanks in advance for the help

Your indoor antenna is probably no more than a simple dipole for VHF. If you only want WBBM during the tourney, consider sticking some rabbit ears outside for the month. Radio Shack has one for $8. It won't last in the weather - probably die within a year, but would work for a month.

If you want a more permanent solution, the Channel Master 2001 should work great.

I purchased a Winegard SquareShooter Antenna. I am about 22 miles from the main transmission tower in the San Franciso area. All I want are the HD channels and the specs on the antenna said that the non-amplified mode would work easily (range of 40- 50 miles quoted for UHF). I first mounted the antenna in the attic with a single layer of plywood and asphalt singles between the antenna and the open air. Figuring a 30% signal loss I thought I would still be OK. I could get channel 5.1 (CBS) and a few others. But not the main ABC, NBC and FOX digital channels (all are on UHF channels so I should stil be able to get them).

The next move I made was to move he antenna to the roof. I mounted it to the chimney and pointed it where antennaweb said to point it. Even tried copying the neighbors poining direction. I got worse signal than before. I checked the cables and just about every component I have and they all checked out. One strange experience was that I connected the antenna using the same cables as on the roof and pointed it out my front door. I got better reception than on the roof. But that exercisce did confirm that my neighbor's pointing direction was more accurate than that from antennaweb.

So my next move was to call Winegard. They were very helpful and suggested I buy an external amplifier which I did. Hooked it up and yes indeed the signal went from a 19 out of 100 on the station I could get (36.1 I believe) to about a 40. Interesting I had better luck getting channels that were supposed to be 90 degrees from where I was pointing the antenna. But alas, I could not get any of the main channels (CBS, etc.) from the main tower. I could get some but not all.

So before I put a big ugly antenna on my roof, does anyone have any insight into what is going on? And what I should do? Thanks.
1. Can you provide your general location (to nearest cross streets)?
2. Are there nearby hills or buildings between you and N-W towards Sutro Towers?
3. Are you using all new coax or reusing old wiring?
4. How is the signal split to different rooms and/or devices?

==========================================
The Squareshooter is a very low gain, very wide beamwidth antenna....which makes it one of the worst choices...esp. for attic applications.
The C-M 4221, W-G PR4400 or A-D DB-4 would provide more gain, and a moderate degree of protection against multipath.
If mulltipath is the culprit, you may want to go one step further and use the C-M 4228 8-Bay antenna ($50 at Frys),
which has the additional benefit of significant gain for VHF channels.

I'm new to this site

What concerns do I have with placing my Antenna Tower about 200' from my home? I will be using RG11. I do no think I will have a problem receiving a signal. We live about 50 mile from Chicago. My concern is line lose from the distance of the Antenna and the Tower. Local rep siad it wouldn't be a concern until 300'. as long as I use a preamp ect. I would just like to know what i will be up against before I continue with installation. Moving Tower is not an option and we do not want antenna on roof. I plan on using this to receive HDTV signals.

Right now I can receive a good (weak) signal from one of those treck antenna outside laying on the ground next to the house

Please be honest.

Thanks

Have you looked into the satellite companies? Both offer the big four Chicago HD locals and would be a lot less obtrusive than a large antenna tower.

Hello folks,
I"m new to the HDTV scene but I was hoping to get a recommendation from one of you on a indoor HDTV antenna. I live in an apartment about 25 miles from downtown Chicago. I'm currently using a Jensen TV931 amplified antenna which has a 20DB gain and am able to pick up around 20 channels but would like to get something in the $50-200 price range. What are the best indoor antennas that anyone has come across?

Recommendations are greatly appreciated!

A good quality preamp at the antenna will easily cancel out all of your loss from your long cable run. It should work fine. You do need to make sure that your preamp/receiver combination does not get overdriven by strong local signals. Preamps with FM radio traps are available if you have any FM stations nearby.

Have you considered the XG91? Is there some reason you would not use one? Just curious...Where can 9032 be bought for $35?

Oh...so you are saying they won't hold up over time...because they work very well...I'm able to pull in completely clear analog uhf from 85 miles during the day.

Would the Wineguard 9095 work well for me; I looked on AntennaWeb and they recommended a medium sized antenna with a pre-amp? I do live in a larger town, so many of my stations should come in clear with a small antenna, from what AntennaWeb says. I am new and just looking for input. Thank you

As a DXer in an urban area (3-5 miles from most local towers), I've been experimenting with the XG91 for about two years and I've found it to be a very competent antenna. It is very similar to the Triax Unix 100 (wideband). My main UHF antenna setup includes 2-Triax antennas horizontally stacked for added gain and more precise aim to find distant stations through a lot of local clutter. Picture of my Triax setup.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/goldrich3@sbcglobal.net/detail?.dir=/54cc&.dnm=c794scd.jpg&.src=ph

Sirchadwick, sorry to hear you've already had a problem with the CM 7777. I've owned a 7775 and 7777 for several years and they still work just fine.

Steve

What is DXing?

What is DXing?

It's a term that people use when they turn on a radio or TV that is connected to a reception antenna and then mindessly change channels to see what comes in. Calling it DXing makes it sound like they are doing something scientific, when in actuality, that so-called hobby involves as much thinking as does sorting through your pocket change, looking for any coins that might have collectable value.

I am strongly againist the 91XG. The constuction of the antenna does not meet my standards, to say it nicely.

I hear this over and over and over again. I'm still waiting for someone to report a problem with one that has been installed.

Mine went up in July of 2004 and still works as well as the day it was installed. We've had ice storms, small hail (pea-sized) and 70+ mph winds. No visible damage from ground level.

When I was a kid, my parents bought the thickest glasses they could find because they thought those would be the toughest. Instead, they were the most brittle, and snapped easily from any trauma. The eye doctor kept a spare set of frames in stock for me because I was such a regular customer. In high school, I spent my own money and got thin frames. They never broke, in spite of some serious blows from all angles (including a volleyball spike from 2' away that was enough for the glass lens to cut my face.) I think the 91XG gets a knock because it doesn't "feel" solid, not because it isn't solid.

And as for performance, which most of us take to mean actual reception, the 91XG has to be very close to the top of the list, and a bargain compared to the European models. You could buy four for what it would cost to get one Televes DAT75 shipped from England.

Yeah...what sregener said.

Where do you find out the signal strength of a channel. I see folks saying a certain channel is 70%. Is there a tool I would use to measure that?

It's a term that people use when they turn on a radio or TV that is connected to a reception antenna and then mindessly change channels to see what comes in. Calling it DXing makes it sound like they are doing something scientific, when in actuality, that so-called hobby involves as much thinking as does sorting through your pocket change, looking for any coins that might have collectable value.

I think this is a little oversimplistic. DXing is like many other hobbies - you can do it seriously, investing much time, money and effort, or you can do it casually, using what you have and putting forth minimal effort.

At its simplest, on days/nights when conditions are favorable, you can spin your antenna and scan through the channels. But when you find something where you expect to find nothing, you must take some effort to identify it or your search was worthless. "Last night, I watched channel 2!" "Channel 2, eh? Where did it come from?" "I have no idea..."

At its most complex, you can invest in antenna setups that far exceed what would be necessary for local reception, you can invest in blocking devices to filter out strong local signals so that weaker ones can come in. You can even use spectrum analyzers to seperate signals out.

AltAntMike, you're a good installer, and I've read what you've done to make local installs work. Surely you wouldn't say that the things you do are not scientific. So why, when some apply those same tools and techniques in other ways, do you feel the need to demean and insult?

Where do you find out the signal strength of a channel. I see folks saying a certain channel is 70%. Is there a tool I would use to measure that?

Most digital tuners have a meter or reading called "signal strength." A few lack this. But nearly all are mislabeled and should instead read "signal quality" or "error ratio".

Check the documentation for your tuner to see if it includes such a meter, and how to access it.

Most digital tuners have a meter or reading called "signal strength." A few lack this. But nearly all are mislabeled and should instead read "signal quality" or "error ratio".

Check the documentation for your tuner to see if it includes such a meter, and how to access it.

Thank you for the heads up.

I am planning on putting an HD Tuner in my home computer and then loading media center pc. I can then hope/assume, that a program that comes with the tuner card will have a signal strength meter.

What is DXing?


Utilizing long distance signal propagtion for communciations(reception in this case) via radio waves. The usage of acronym "DX" refers to "long distance" in this case.

It's a term that people use when they turn on a radio or TV that is connected to a reception antenna and then mindessly change channels to see what comes in. Calling it DXing makes it sound like they are doing something scientific, when in actuality, that so-called hobby involves as much thinking as does sorting through your pocket change, looking for any coins that might have collectable value.

Apparently you are not aware of the "scientific" interests and aspects involved for some of us who enjoy the TV/DTV Dx'ing hobby ...

And no, that is not saying it's necessary, or required(nor should it be) to be interested in "science", or the "scientific aspects" of long distance VHF/UHF signal propagation in order to enjoy the hobby ....

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For those who *are* interested, and want to learn about some of the "scientific aspects" of DX'ing and long distance VHF/UHF signal propagation, here are just a few links that should be beneficial - Yes, Scientists and engineers(as well as "hobbyists") have been "Dx'ing" as well as doing useful research and observations concerning long-distance VHF/UHF signal propagation for over 50 years. Although, unfortunetly, there is still much misinformation out there, including in some cases at some(but not all) of the links below. :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/f-DL-signals.shtml

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/f_DG_Enhanced_propagation.shtml

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/TV-FM_DX

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Radio_frequency_propagation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporadic_E

http://www.answers.com/topic/tv-fm-dx

The signal propagation section at : www.dxfm.com

http://www.amfmdx.net/fmdx/sporadic-e.html

http://home.cogeco.ca/~vem3ont22/propagation/tr-modes.htm

And as for performance, which most of us take to mean actual reception, the 91XG has to be very close to the top of the list, and a bargain compared to the European models. You could buy four for what it would cost to get one Televes DAT75 shipped from England.

I actually read a comparrison study from the HDTVPrimer website that compared a bunch of commercially available antennas and it looked like the 91XG was at the top of the list, according to his metrics. I will look around and see if I saved the link somewhere. I don't have a 91XG, but if I lived 60+ miles form the towers, I would probably look into it. I will post the link later if I can find it.

I have ordered some additional "middle" sections for the Antennas Direct 91XG antenna. The standard length is 93" with each section 31" in length.

The purpose of this project is to insert three additional sections of boom to increase the gain, and directivity. In theory, the additional length "should" play a factory, however, I am unsure on what the outcome will be.

So, it will make the antenna 186" in length or 15.5 feet! The ability to reposition the holder will allow even distribtion of the modified antenna.

I will be looking at windloading and how much extra length can be added. If you have any other ideas, let me know. :)

I actually read a comparrison study from the HDTVPrimer website that compared a bunch of commercially available antennas and it looked like the 91XG was at the top of the list, according to his metrics. I will look around and see if I saved the link somewhere. I don't have a 91XG, but if I lived 60+ miles form the towers, I would probably look into it. I will post the link later if I can find it.

I believe these links relate to what you are referring to, which include tests performed with The AntennasDirect XG91.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/XG91.html

Steve

We have one VHF digital and another one will be on the air by this summer. And two other local VHF analog stations here have told me they plan to move their UHF DTV channel to their VHF assignment, when analog is shut off.

The TV channels that will go away after the analog shutoff are UHF channels 52 - 69, not VHF. Article here (http://broadcastengineering.com/ar/broadcasting_beyond_headlines_channel/)

.
Did you notice that the "article" was dated April Fool's Day---four years ago?????

DTV Channel Election results are summarized here:
www.tvantenna.com/links/dtvchannelelections.xls
Except for a handful of Negotiated Channel Agreements that came later (see 11/23/05 posting):
http://www.fcc.gov/dtv/

I actually read a comparrison study from the HDTVPrimer website that compared a bunch of commercially available antennas and it looked like the 91XG was at the top of the list, according to his metrics. I will look around and see if I saved the link somewhere. I don't have a 91XG, but if I lived 60+ miles form the towers, I would probably look into it. I will post the link later if I can find it.
The results posted on hdtvprimer.com are based on NEC computer simulations that are only as good as the model assumptions and piece-wise approximations. Accurately simulating the very complex 91XG would be very, very difficult.....
So take the results with a big grain of salt...

An on-the-air comparison for multiple antennas mounted on the roof (and in an attic) was reported in the below post and summarized/discussed in the subsequent postings:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6245872&highlight=bob+chase+attic#post6245872
The 91XG was in the middle of the pack.

You might also find the fol. Excel spread sheet of interest. It summarizes and plots comparisons for various manufacturer spec sheet data vs Kerry Cozad's on-air gain measurements and selected NEC simulations:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2846.html#POST20074

An on-the-air comparison for multiple antennas mounted on the roof (and in an attic) was reported in the below post and summarized/discussed in the subsequent postings:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6245872&highlight=bob+chase+attic#post6245872
The 91XG was in the middle of the pack.

It's worth noting that that test was done at 10 miles or so, not at the long-range distances where the 91XG really shines.

It also is just one test, done in one location. Bob Chase is a great guy and a super engineer, but that doesn't make his one test in one location worth more than all the others done elsewhere.

One post in this thread did a comparison of a 4228 and a 91XG and found the 91XG was slightly better below channel 30 and slightly worse above channel 30.

I replaced a Winegard HD8200P with a 91XG and saw a marked improvement in reception. I've tried the Channel Master 4248 (also in a vertical stack), a Winegard HD7084P and a Radio Shack U120. None came close to the performance I'm getting from the 91XG, although all performed about the same for stations within 30 miles, and maybe even within 50.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that location matters a whole lot, and only when long distance (i.e. very weak signals) becomes the defining factor does the 91XG really come into its own.

Most digital tuners have a meter or reading called "signal strength." A few lack this. But nearly all are mislabeled and should instead read "signal quality" or "error ratio".


Someone else pointed out to me that 99% of my signal wasn't getting through my roof and explained about the signal quality thing when I said the signal wasn't too much better outside. It was quite the enlightening discussion about the signal correction meter in my hdtivo. :)

One post in this thread did a comparison of a 4228 and a 91XG and found the 91XG was slightly better below channel 30 and slightly worse above channel 30.

.

Since, by definition, higher UHF is more difficult to receive even at the same powers as lower stations, wouldn't being 'worse' above 30 be a disadvantage?

I'm not 100% sure on the antenna type, but it cost $30 at a local electronic store. My zip is 21209, and I would like to pick up the DC HD signals, but I don't think that I can. I think I need to get one of those monster antennas instead.

I'm not 100% sure on the antenna type, but it cost $30 at a local electronic store. My zip is 21209, and I would like to pick up the DC HD signals, but I don't think that I can. I think I need to get one of those monster antennas instead.

You wouldn't need a monster antenna. The furthest station in DC is 37 miles, which means that a Channel Master 4221 should work just fine. This antenna runs about $25 and is 4' high and 2' wide, and about 4" deep. Hardly a monster compared to others that are 15' long.

Since, by definition, higher UHF is more difficult to receive even at the same powers as lower stations, wouldn't being 'worse' above 30 be a disadvantage?

Where did you get the idea that higher UHF channels are harder to receive? At least one engineer I know complains that they're stuck with choosing between 14 and 19, which both suffer far more impulse noise than higher UHF signals.

But I think we're splitting hairs. The 4228 is an excellent UHF antenna. It is even the best antenna for many people in many situations. But the corner reflector of the 91XG is better than the stacked bowtie design of the 4228, at least in one person's tests. For one antenna or the other to be slightly better in one instance for half the UHF spectrum isn't a big deal. The weight and wind load of the 4228 make it a poor choice for people with rotors. The stacked bowtie design is often easier to install in an attic, and the bowtie design outperforms the yagi in attic situations.

There are so many factors that make reception difficult that it's hard to pick one and say, "This is it." Weak signals are a major problem for long-distance reception. Co-channel and cross-channel interference can be others. Multipath is still a bugger. That's why real-world testing isn't considered valid by the "pros" and they rely on computer modeling.

I get a digital station on UHF channel 44 that is at 205kw, and is over 75 miles away. That's good performance, I think. I get a UHF analog station on channel 48 with a very viewable picture that is about 74.5 miles away, and I'm 30 miles beyond their grade B contours. Now, I got these stations with my Winegard HD8200P, as well, but not as clearly and not as often. The difference was obvious to my eyes. Maybe there are other antennas out there that can perform as well as the 91XG, but I have yet to hear of a convincing case of another antenna "besting" the 91XG in long-distance performance over the entire spectrum.

But if your desired channels are above channel 30, and you have no trouble getting the ones below channel 30, the 4228 may be a better choice, provided you don't need a rotor and aren't at risk of overloading your mounting system.

As a DXer in an urban area (3-5 miles from most local towers), I've been experimenting with the XG91 for about two years and I've found it to be a very competent antenna. It is very similar to the Triax Unix 100 (wideband). My main UHF antenna setup includes 2-Triax antennas horizontally stacked for added gain and more precise aim to find distant stations through a lot of local clutter. Picture of my Triax setup.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/goldrich3@sbcglobal.net/detail?.dir=/54cc&.dnm=c794scd.jpg&.src=ph

Sirchadwick, sorry to hear you've already had a problem with the CM 7777. I've owned a 7775 and 7777 for several years and they still work just fine.

Steve

Steve,

Unfortunatley, my famous CM 4257 took a lighting hit. It took out the CM7777 preamp and roasted the antenna. So, I am in the market of buying a new UHF antenna.

I really like your setup. Most people have had problems stacking the antennas perfectly, thus cancelling out any of the associtaed 3dB gain with the stack.

At present, I am going back and forth with the 91XG & the Winegard 9032. It is a tough call for me!

Lastly, also looking at chaning the Amp from the CM 7777 to the Winegard AP2870. The advantage would be the higher front-end overload. Living in the city limits, (20 miles from local transmitters) I experienced this. Actually, there should really be NO difference in picture quality from a pre-amp with a gain of 26dB Vs. 19dB if the coax run is not over 200 feet. (Correct me if I am wrong).

Have you considered the XG91? Is there some reason you would not use one? Just curious...Where can 9032 be bought for $35?

Here you go: http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=3&CAT=&PROD=PR9032

Price does not reflect shipping. (Sorry)

Most people have had problems stacking the antennas perfectly, thus cancelling out any of the associtaed 3dB gain with the stack.

At present, I am going back and forth with the 91XG & the Winegard 9032. It is a tough call for me!

Horizontal stacks do far more for directionality than for gain. Vertical stacks are more for gain than directionality.

The 9032 is a fine antenna. Many have had good luck with it. I'd give it the nod over channel 40. Under that, I'd prefer the 91XG.

Where did you get the idea that higher UHF channels are harder to receive? At least one engineer I know complains that they're stuck with choosing between 14 and 19, which both suffer far more impulse noise than higher UHF signals.

.

well there's first handed experience (old data I found about my rig at the time)

uhf station signal power height
26 (cbs3) 90-92 770/375
31 (pax61) 90-91
32 (upn 57) 75-80 250/400
34 (wbye35) 80-85 358/377
42 (fox 29) 25-45 305/161
54 (wb 17) 60ish 500/354
64 (abc 6) 85+ 500/390
67 (nbc10) 85++ 560/377

where ch 64 was very unreliable (that 85 reading wasn't reliable as I soon found out) but ch 32, at half the power but the 'same' height, has never been a problem whether the antenna was indoors or out. Maybe it's not a valid comparision, but in my eyes, getting ch 32 perfectly and 100% reliably indoors vs ch 64s problems led me to think that it's harder to get higher UHF.

I know others have also mentioned it on this board (and others) and I read an article about it on hdprimer or somewhere and will post when I find it. (just dont have the time to search over all my posts when people answered me. ) I did solve the problems by mounting on the roof and spending $$ for someone to aim it.

This wasn't what I was looking for but I found it interesting nonetheless

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html
scroll to:
Comparing some common 4-to-1 baluns

I truly have no idea what that means...just seemed to support what I thought :)

well there's first handed experience

...where ch 64 was very unreliable (that 85 reading wasn't reliable as I soon found out) but ch 32, at half the power but the 'same' height, has never been a problem whether the antenna was indoors or out. Maybe it's not a valid comparision, but in my eyes, getting ch 32 perfectly and 100% reliably indoors vs ch 64s problems led me to think that it's harder to get higher UHF.

Hmmmm. Well... maybe this is why we're not all experts and shouldn't trust personal experience alone in making determinations.

Your antenna is not a flat performer across the board. No antenna is. Your antenna might be tuned for maximum performance somewhere other than the highest channel numbers.

Different frequencies propogate differently. Not necessarily inferior to each other, just different. That means that you might be in a sweet spot for one frequency, but not for another. In other words, it could just be coincidence that one channel came in better than another. The higher frequencies have smaller sweet spots, too, because the wavelengths are shorter.

Without knowing the details of the installation of each antenna, it is possible that one antenna was omni-directional and another had a directional bias. This may not be the case, or it might be. One antenna might be side-mounted on a tower, which would give it some null in one direction or another. WXOW-DT's digital antenna, for instance, is side-mounted, with a definite drop in signal to the northwest compared to the east.

Another example is in St.Paul/Minneapolis: KSTP-DT is broadcasting at 1000kw ERP, but it it the consistent underperformer compared to KARE-DT at 1000kw and WCCO-DT at 1000kw. In fact, all three are broadcast from the same antenna. KSTP is channel 50, WCCO is 32 and KARE is 35. "Ah-ha!" you exclaim. "There's the proof!" But not so fast. First, the antenna is not optimized for channel 50, it is optimized for channels 32-35. Second, even though these antennas are omnidirectional, they have relative peaks and valleys, which are offset by 30 degrees. So if you get great reception of WCCO and KARE, KSTP might be a problem, and vice versa. And since the antenna is optimized for WCCO and KARE, even if you're in the relative null for them, if you get KSTP, you'll certainly get the other two as well.

Since you were using an indoor antenna, you introduced yet another variable into the mix: the absorbtion of the materials in the walls or roof of your home. These are also not flat across the spectrum.

Of course, a station can do a lot to make their signal either easier or harder to receive by, among other things, messing with PSIP data or sending incorrect PSIP data which may serve to confuse receivers.

Finally, higher UHF channels have smaller wavelengths, which means that aiming of the receive antenna must be more precise. What works great on channel 32 may be well outside the gain area of channel 55. See any of the gain charts on hdtvprimer for examples.

The link you provided in the next post serves to further demonstrate that there are too many variables to be sure about anything from one real-world test. Those baluns have higher loss at higher frequencies. That isn't a function of the frequencies that are broadcast, or the difficulty in receiving them; it is a problem of balun design.

I have heard, from those who are supposed to know such things, that there is no practical difference in the receiving a UHF signal at the bottom of the scale from one at the top, provided you use equipment that is optimized for the frequency you're after. Any broadband antenna is not optimized, and most of the electrical components aren't flat across the spectrum, so what you've run into is, if indeed some channels aren't working as well as others and all other factors are equal, maybe just a problem of compromise in design.

It is not a fault or flaw of the 91XG that it works better on the lower frequencies than the higher ones - it is, at best, a compromise. And a good one, I think, since the highest channel number in a few years will be 51. Then all that extra oomph some antennas have on channels 52-69 will be wasted.

To sum up, the number of variables exceeds what can reasonably be tested and verified and proven by a single individual in a single location using commonly available antenna equipment. I'm sorry this post is so long, but it's a rather long-winded way of saying that your results, while interesting, are not definitive or even, without a great deal more research, even valid for comparison purposes.

I am a noob and would like some suggestions on what you think would work for an antenna. I looked on antennaweb, but not knowing what the various antennas are, its hard to use the suggestions :)

channel - compass - miles - freq
6.1 - 87 - 4.6 - 22
3.1 - 90 - 4.6 - 45
7.1 - 89 - 4.6 - 20
26.1 - 120 - 6.7 - 17
42 - 194 - 17.7 - 42
15 - 194 - 17.7 - 15

I am a noob and would like some suggestions on what you think would work for an antenna. I looked on antennaweb, but not knowing what the various antennas are, its hard to use the suggestions :)

The last two are going to make it hard to go with a fixed solution. I'd use a Channel Master 4221 on a rotor to get that list. Avoid preamps or "powered" antennas.

If you wanted to try an indoor antenna, the Zenith Silver Sensor would be the one to get.

It is not a fault or flaw of the 91XG that it works better on the lower frequencies than the higher ones - it is, at best, a compromise. And a good one, I think, since the highest channel number in a few years will be 51. Then all that extra oomph some antennas have on channels 52-69 will be wasted.

The 91XG performs better at higher frequencies. :D

Horizontal stacks do far more for directionality than for gain. Vertical stacks are more for gain than directionality.
No. At a constant efficiency, gain and directivity are the same thing. It's just spherical geometry:

https://ewhdbks.mugu.navy.mil/ANTENNAS.HTM

Ron

No. At a constant efficiency, gain and directivity are the same thing. It's just spherical geometry:

https://ewhdbks.mugu.navy.mil/ANTENNAS.HTM

For a single antenna, that would be true. For multiple antennas, though, things change.

In theory, directivity is increased with either a vertical or horizontal stack, but this directivity is restricted to one plane. With a vertical stack, sources of multipath above and below the antenna will be reduced relative to the direct signal. With a horizontal stack, sources of multipath at the same height (far more common) will be reduced.

The goal of a stack is to place the two antennas far enough apart that they are in separate waveforms from the transmitter. However, the additive benefits seem to be reduced with a horizontal stack compared to a vertical one. Thus, if your goal is to increase absolute signal strength, vertically stacked antennas are slightly better than horizontal ones. But if you have persistant problems with multipath, or you want to DX signals with extreme selectivity, a horizontal stack is the way to go.

It has been argued that neither stack design actually creates net gain due to the losses of combining the two signals and having mismatched inputs, meaning that the only improvement is in rejection of undesired signals. I'll leave that as an exercise for the reader. :D

I just received a notice Radio Shack has stock of their legendary Double Bow Tie antenna, which is the best for OTA HDTV reception. Forget Terk and Silver Sensor, this is the real deal and in this day of high end components, it is obscenely inexpensive.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058

I want to split my incoming OTA antenna signal to have 3 outputs, 1 going to the TV, and the other 2 going to 2 OTA HD-DVR's in the same room. Can I get a spliter amplifier that has one input and 3 outputs, do they make such a thing, will I loose that much signal, or do I not need to worry about it?

Thanks.

For a single antenna, that would be true. For multiple antennas, though, things change.
No. Stacked antennas are effectively a single antenna. Most consider the CM4228 to be a single antenna, yet it's a stack of bowtie dipoles.

Ron

I just received a notice Radio Shack has stock of their legendary Double Bow Tie antenna, which is the best for OTA HDTV reception. Forget Terk and Silver Sensor, this is the real deal and in this day of high end components, it is obscenely inexpensive.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058

They brought it back a year or two ago after seeing a very big ebay market develop selling this old (and very effective) $5 antenna selling regularly for up to $20 or $25. Plus they couldn't come up with a $99 "HDTV" amplified antenna that performed as well.

The higher frequencies have smaller sweet spots, too, because the wavelengths are shorter.

Finally, higher UHF channels have smaller wavelengths, which means that aiming of the receive antenna must be more precise. .

Hey I dont understand most of the technical stuff in all this :) but didn't you just make my point for me ?

I said that higher UHF is harder to receive and you said they have 'smaller sweet spots" and "smaller wavelength......must be more precise" which I presume means that are 'more difficult' to tune in :)

well at least by my definition

I said that higher UHF is harder to receive and you said they have 'smaller sweet spots" and "smaller wavelength......must be more precise" which I presume means that are 'more difficult' to tune in :)

well at least by my definition

Perhaps we're like two ships passing in the night, not really making contact with each other here...

When it comes to antenna placement and aim, you typically have to be more careful with higher UHF than lower UHF. When it comes to actually receiving the signal, however, there is no real difference.

This is a little like saying that you have to aim a rifle more carefully than a shotgun. But when it comes to hitting the target, either should work if you aim it right.

An antenna comprised of array of horizontally stacked elements will be more directional, horizontally, than will an antenna with the same gain but consisting of either a single element or a vertically stacked element array in every situation except the ones an which an unintended multipath signal component fortuitously (or unfortuitously) gets to to the horizontally elements in sync phase.

Hey I dont understand most of the technical stuff in all this :) but didn't you just make my point for me ?

I said that higher UHF is harder to receive and you said they have 'smaller sweet spots" and "smaller wavelength......must be more precise" which I presume means that are 'more difficult' to tune in :)

well at least by my definition

But it is not our definition. While UHF antennas have to be aimed "more precisely", that characteristic only makes it more difficult to receive signals from different directions at the same time. Attaining the precision needed to optimize the performance of a UHF antenna with respect to a single transmission path is not considered a hinderance to tuning, because the aiming margin is so large with respect to our ability to aim it and hold its aim. When I point a UHF antenna at a transmitter, I'm sure I never know if it is within 5 degrees of being pointed at it unless I can see the tower, yet generally, I don't care whether it is or not.

If someone has a reception situation in which moving an antenna a few degrees make a difference between adequate reception and inadequate reception, then his problem is most surely multipath, because while moving a UHF antenna a few degrees to the left or right of the target line might only change the gain by a small fraction of a dB, it will often change the sidelobe rejection by more than that. So in harsh reception environments, the tighter precision of the UHF polar reception pattern often makes it easier to receive UHF signals rather than VHF ones, because it develops deeper and sharper sidelobe "troughs"

But there is a propagation disadvantage that burdens the higher frequencies and that is that they don't bend or refract as readily over horizontal obstructions, so it is quite common for someone to have more difficulty receiving the higher frequency UHF channel than the lower frequency ones broadcast from the same tower if there is a nearby object blocking the transmission line-of-sight path.

They brought it back a year or two ago after seeing a very big ebay market develop selling this old (and very effective) $5 antenna selling regularly for up to $20 or $25. Plus they couldn't come up with a $99 "HDTV" amplified antenna that performed as well.

I have one as well. It worked great in Tampa (where the transmitters were reasonably close). Now that I live in Manchester, NH, I can't get any signals. Should I just get a new one or can I put an amplifier on the current antenna?

Perhaps we're like two ships passing in the night, not really making contact with each other here...

When it comes to antenna placement and aim, you typically have to be more careful with higher UHF than lower UHF. \.

yes it sounds like it's semantics (potaaato and potaahhto). I interpret 'be more careful' to mean more difficult because you can't just 'slap' the antenna on the roof and have it pick up the signal even if all the stations are in the same spot. (like in my personal case where 1 millimeter literally made the difference and frustrated the hell out of my installer). You need to spend time fine tuning to optimize reception (as evidenced by my $400 service calls). That = "more difficult" to me vs just setup and go. Whereas you just likely would say 'you have to be more careful"


But there is a propagation disadvantage that burdens the higher frequencies and that is that they don't bend or refract as readily over horizontal obstructions, so it is quite common for someone to have more difficulty receiving the higher frequency UHF channel than the lower frequency ones broadcast from the same tower if there is a nearby object blocking the transmission line-of-sight path.

Again semantics..but not quite :) However it's good to hear the acknowledgment that there is a propagation disadvantage higher up. In my case I had a harder time getting in 64 and 67 and even by your words above, you can have "more difficulty receiving the higher frequency UHF channel than the lower frequency ones."

so I think what both of you differ on is the definition of 'more difficult' yet you both seem to admit in your statements that the higher is "more difficult", at least in some cases and I dare say in many (assuming multipath and other objects are prevalent problems in the USA).

Perhaps we're like two ships passing in the night, not really making contact with each other here...

When it comes to antenna placement and aim, you typically have to be more careful with higher UHF than lower UHF. When it comes to actually receiving the signal, however, there is no real difference.

This is a little like saying that you have to aim a rifle more carefully than a shotgun. But when it comes to hitting the target, either should work if you aim it right.
In addition to narrower antenna beamwidths at higher frequencies, the upper UHF frequencies
also have numerous loss factors making them more difficult to receive:
1. Propagation Loss increases with frequency:
Free Space Loss = 36.58 dB + 20 log (Fo in MHz) + 20 log (Dtr in miles)
2. Downlead Loss increases with frequency.
3. RF Splitter Loss increases at the higher frequencies.
4. VSWR Mismatch increases at the extremes of the designed bandwidth.

An antenna that exhibits more gain at higher frequencies can help to counteract these effects.

Higher frequencies also result in multipath nulls patterns being closer together,
making antenna placement ever more critical:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html

They brought it back a year or two ago after seeing a very big ebay market develop selling this old (and very effective) $5 antenna selling regularly for up to $20 or $25. Plus they couldn't come up with a $99 "HDTV" amplified antenna that performed as well. You might be thinking of the single bowtie as far as being $5.00 (unless you made a misprint). I'm pretty sure that the double bowtie model has been going for around $15.00 for some time (it may have been only $5.00 at one time, but at least not for the last few years).

Looking for some help here.
A few weeks ago I installed a 3020 CM antenna on my roof about 37 miles SW from downtown Chicago. Went well,got all the local digital channels,even the very hard to get CBS (digital channel 3,all others are uhf here) with very rare dropouts on that channel. On my H20 DTV receiver,I was able to get a fairly steady 65-70 signal strength for that one,all others are 90 plus. Now,after coming back from vacation,I get numerous dropouts for that channel only,with the ss varying greatly,sometimes as low as 30 or so. The antenna is running through a 5x8 multiswitch and diplexed. I tested it out today,ran the line straight through from the antenna to the receiver,bypassing switches and diplexers. Still numerous dropouts,no improvement. Any ideas on what it may be? If it was a bad cable,fitting,etc.,wouldn't all channels be affected?
Or possibly a bad transformer up on the antenna? Antenna is fine,no loose or damaged elements. No obstructions from my roof top to the towers downtown. Antenna is properly grounded. We did have a major storm here Sunday night,in which my HR10-250 did not survive,but I'm not sure if it was a result of the storm or not,(hard drive failure) or just a coincidence.

If anyone has any thoughts,I'd appreciate it,otherwise I guess I'll have to start replacing parts one by one.

You might be thinking of the single bowtie as far as being $5.00 (unless you made a misprint). I'm pretty sure that the double bowtie model has been going for around $15.00 for some time (it may have been only $5.00 at one time, but at least not for the last few years).


The Double bowtie was being discontinued about 3 years ago and they got down to $1 on closeout. I think the ones that are selling now still have twin wire leads. If so, it will need to be replaced with a balun. This requires a balun, 2 small bolts and nuts, and removal of the rivets holding the twin wire lead on.

In St. Pete Beach, FL -- mostly level nearby save for some tennis court lighting. The antennaweb for my locale is:

yellow - uhf WTOG-DT 44.1 UPN ST. PETERSBURG FL 74° 30.3 59
yellow - uhf WTTA-DT 38.1 WB ST. PETERSBURG FL 75° 30.3 57
yellow - uhf WFTS-DT 28.1 ABC TAMPA FL 75° 30.3 29
yellow - uhf WEDU-DT 3.1 PBS TAMPA FL 74° 30.3 54
yellow - uhf WCLF-DT 22.1 CTN CLEARWATER FL 78° 29.9 21
green - uhf WFTT-DT 50.1 TFA TAMPA FL 75° 30.3 47
red - vhf WFLA-DT 8.1 NBC TAMPA FL 75° 30.3 7
red - vhf WTVT-DT 13.1 FOX TAMPA FL 79° 31.1 12
red - uhf WTSP-DT 10.1 CBS ST. PETERSBURG FL 0° 33.0 24
red - uhf WUSF-DT 16.1 PBS TAMPA FL 74° 30.3 34

I believe my biggest problem here is with CBS -- is there a single antenna solution that will cover everything above? Without a rotor? Looking to attempt an attic installation first due to high-wind concerns and the house being a rental..

The Double bowtie was being discontinued about 3 years ago and they got down to $1 on closeout. I think the ones that are selling now still have twin wire leads. If so, it will need to be replaced with a balun. This requires a balun, 2 small bolts and nuts, and removal of the rivets holding the twin wire lead on.Holy Moly! I wish I knew then what I know now. I'd have grabbed a bunch of them!

I believe my biggest problem here is with CBS -- is there a single antenna solution that will cover everything above? Without a rotor? Looking to attempt an attic installation first due to high-wind concerns and the house being a rental..

A single antenna? Probably not.

But you could buy two Channel Master 4221s and a Channel Master Jointenna for channel 24 and hook the two antennas into that for a single downlead.

Although I normally caution against attic installs, I think you're likely to have success if you're persistent in placement. Don't just stick them up there and expect to have found the best spot.

I believe my biggest problem here is with CBS -- is there a single antenna solution that will cover everything above? Without a rotor? Looking to attempt an attic installation first due to high-wind concerns and the house being a rental..

from what I'm reading you only have a 3 degree difference. I had a 2 degree difference in my case and with my DB8, everyone kept telling me that the antenna would more than cover a 2-3 degree difference when I was telling them I had difficulty getting in the 'off' station. (I have a house in my way which also added to the fun) I initially thought I'd have to get 2 different antennas for the one station that was off but the db8 did get everything in just fine. So you may not need 2 after all.

A good quality preamp at the antenna will easily cancel out all of your loss from your long cable run. It should work fine. You do need to make sure that your preamp/receiver combination does not get overdriven by strong local signals. Preamps with FM radio traps are available if you have any FM stations nearby.

How long of a run is possible with consumer-grade equipment? I'm looking at doing a hilltop tower install, and my only concern is that my lengthy run will result in unacceptable signal loss.

I am answering your questions

1. Can you provide your general location (to nearest cross streets)?

1105 Blandford Blvd
Redwood City, CA 94062 Cross St is Woodsworth
2. Are there nearby hills or buildings between you and N-W towards Sutro Towers?
There may be some hills and buildings however they are about 3 miles away or further
3. Are you using all new coax or reusing old wiring?
New coax direct run to my HDTV. About 35 foot run. Have installed Winegard amplifier
4. How is the signal split to different rooms and/or devices?
Just direct to the TV through the amplifier. No splits

from what I'm reading you only have a 3 degree difference...

On first glance, I thought the same thing. What is so close is distance. Compass readings vary from 0 degrees to 79, with only CBS being due north.

I've asked this before but didn't get an answer. Whats the best way to split the incoming signal from an OTA antenna, I need at least 4 outputs.

1 to the TV
2 to two HD-DVR's
1 to a stereo receiver for FM reception

All hookups are in the same room.

Thanks.

On first glance, I thought the same thing. What is so close is distance. Compass readings vary from 0 degrees to 79, with only CBS being due north.

time to head out to grind myself a new eye prescription

I use the MonsterCable splitters.

The 4 splitter decreases the signal by:

5MHz-1GHz: -7.4dB
1GHz- 2GHz: -9.6dB

Stay away from cheapo models!
When will they ever learn?
When will the ev--er learn?

From: Where Have All The Flowers Gone
-Lyrics by Pete Seeger
-Recorded by Peter, Paul and Mary

I use the MonsterCable splitters.

The 4 splitter decreases the signal by:

5MHz-1GHz: -7.4dB
1GHz- 2GHz: -9.6dB

Stay away from cheapo models!


http://monstercable.com/productPage.asp?pin=663

http://monstercable.com/images_db/home_av/connectors/TGHZ2RF_GLAM_tn.jpg

Aren't all OTA frequencies below 900Mhz?

When will they ever learn?
When will the ev--er learn?

From: Where Have All The Flowers Gone
-Lyrics by Pete Seeger
-Recorded by Peter, Paul and Mary P. T. Barnum would have loved him.

Would something like this (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?CAT=Amplifiers&PROD=SPDA3044) work for OTA?

Thanks.

Would something like this (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?CAT=Amplifiers&PROD=SPDA3044) work for OTA?

Provided that your signal is neither marginally weak (where the noise would be a problem) or nearly too strong (where overload becomes possible from all that amplificaiton) it will work.

After some research and helped from people here, I am planning on buying a Channelmaster 2001 antenna. I just need help with one more thing. Does anyone know /if I can use a non-penetrating roof mount? Thanks

Nolan

A non penetrating roof mount is normally designed for a flat roof. What do you have? Chimney mounts and eave mounts are some other ways to get an antenna up without drilling the roof.

A non penetrating roof mount is normally designed for a flat roof. What do you have? Chimney mounts and eave mounts are some other ways to get an antenna up without drilling the roof.

Thanks for the response. I have a flat roof and would prefer to do no drilling at all, but I am open to suggestions. (obviously :) )

Thanks
Nolan

After some research and helped from people here, I am planning on buying a Channelmaster 2001 antenna. I just need help with one more thing. Does anyone know /if I can use a non-penetrating roof mount?

Rohn makes a non-penetrating roof mount with a 5', 1-1/4" diameter mast. The part number might be PRN-125 or something like that. As most dealers do not stock that item, you could buy a PRN-166, which had a larger diameter, 1-1/2" ID mast for DirecTV, and drill three, 5/16" holes in any 1-1/4" mast to replace it, which is usually what I do.

If you do find the PRN-125, just make sure that it is being shipped with the 5' mast, as there is a lot of inventory of PRN-125s with 30" masts that were built to accommodate the Sony 18" dishes, and a dealer who was stuck with them shipped me two, with a couple of 3', 1'1/4" mast extensions but with no way to attach them to the mast.

On the topic of non penetrating mounts...reminds me of the time they tried to save $ and put some cinder blocks on some plywood and think that was ok for my 10 ft winegard on my old flat roof.

One storm later, when it was hanging off the edge flat down almost ready to kill the neighbors car, they came out to rescue it and decided it wasn't a good idea afterall.

I'm betting a 18 inch dish would be ok though :)

When will they ever learn?
When will the ev--er learn?

From: Where Have All The Flowers Gone
-Lyrics by Pete Seeger
-Recorded by Peter, Paul and Mary

OK, so what is the big deal for using the Monster Cable splitter? Really?

OK, so what is the big deal for using the Monster Cable splitter? Really?

It looks like it's as good as most, but it costs around 5x as much.

60% off a $30 Monster 4-way splitter leaves $12, but will not outperform a $3, 4-way splitter

60% off a $30 Monster 4-way splitter leaves $12, but will not outperform a $3, 4-way splitter

I will have to disagree with you on this topic. As visiting their facility and looking at the components selected in this splitter in comparision to those no name splitters you buy at Rat Shack, there is a difference!

60% off a $30 Monster 4-way splitter leaves $12, but will not outperform a $3, 4-way splitter

How did the remark in a post above mine, claiming that the poster got a 60% discount when he bought Monster splitters, manage to disappear, and why?

Wasn't it in a Sirchadwick post? Does he work for a Monster retailer or dealer?

Sir,

It's a much better idea to learn from Mike than to argue with him. He's probably got more experience than the rest of us put together. The only thing he lacks is a better joke writer. Just one thread about Monster may be found at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=487733&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

Mike- I'm with you, something like a < $3 CM 7994 would be my choice over the MC spliitter, however i do prefer Johnny Rivers version of "Where Have all the Flowers Gone".

It's a much better idea to learn from Mike than to argue with him. He's probably got more experience than the rest of us put together.

I'd agree, up to a point. The question is: what kind of experience does AltAntMike have, and how much does it pertain to someone else's experience or question? I think AltAntMike does a lot of urban/suburban work, so his experience is primarily with strong signal environments with tons of multipath. I think his experience in weak/deep-fringe is much less, and his advice seems to bear this out. Now, most people (statistically) will be in urban/suburban environments, so his experience is worthwhile and germane most of the time.

I believe there is a difference between the splitters above, but that the difference would only be noticable on the weakest signals which means most people wouldn't see any difference. For those who would see a difference, there are probably better parts of the system to upgrade than the splitter.

Monster Cable dealers let their employees buy their products for 60% off. I doubt that they are losing money on those sales, so if you take a splitter that Monster can sell at a profit for $12 and charge $30 for it because you call it Monster, how many tenths of a dB does that save?

Blonder Tongue, Sonora and Scientific Atlanta manufacture their products with tender loving care and make them as reliable as possible, but they don't claim that they lose a couple tenths of a dB less of signal, because they don't. The fact that Monster uses one single loss figure for the entire broadcast television band means that they are not even taking their efficiency rating seriously, since it is a physical impossibility to keep a splitter perfectly flat over a range of 800Mz.

In the absence of information to the contrary, I generally assume that the cheaper passive devices lose less signal. I know that the insertion loss of a $20 Jointenna is less than the insertion loss of a $400 Blonder Tongue bandpass filter. When I am trying to rescue an anemic signal, (which I probably do more often than anyone here, because each of my 15-16 channel headends includes one or two stations that are 30 to 40dB below the local ones) I am usually best served by putting a real cheap bandpass filter ahead of the preamp, rather than a more expensive one, or sometimes, I scrape off the strong signals I am trying to avoid preamplifying by using a cheap, cylindrical tier trap, since those have lower insertion losses than any of the more expensive products that I carry.

Go to a television station or a radio station or a cable company headend and see how many Monster products they use. For that matter, thirty years ago, I knew of a few audiophiles who would make sure that all of their RCA connectors were gold plated, but today, as far as I know, no one even makes gold plated XLR connectors, which are the connectors of choice in commercial audio interconnection.

I once installed a $26,000 reflector for ABC News. That unit was manufactured so precisely that the assembly instructions forbade screwing in the several hundred 1/4" fine threaded screws because they said that they had drilled the holes so precisely, the assembler must be able to just push them through the holes, so if you have to screw them in, then one panel is missalinged by a thousandth of an inch or so. ABC actually had a guy checking up on us, to make sure we weren't cheating them by using a battery powered screw driver, but they didn't ask us what we were using for our crimp-on connectors or our passive devices because they didn't care.

Some of you would be surprised to learn that sometimes you actually wind up increasing the strength developed by a fraction of a dB by arbitrarily exchanging cheapo barrel connectors or splitters. Real live RF circuits never wind up with the exact, desired impedance, and sometimes, adding a poor connection or junk component offsets some other mismatch elsewhere and the power development equation is optimized. Unfortunately, you can't predict when and where you will benefit by making a bad situation worse, but I pay no attention the rules of thumb that a barrel splice loses 0.xdB or a UHF balun loses whatever Channel Master or Winegard or HDTV Primer say because I know that baluns vary over the UHF band by several dB, and the ones that you would thing are superior, because of the attributes of their physical construction, actually lose more signals than the junk ones at lots of frequencies.

End of rant.

[QUOTE=AntAltMike]

Good Quote on the Monster Products... However, I know that the Monster Cable products are superior to the splitters at Rat Shack.

But on another note, what do you recommend for a splitter manufacturer to go with and lastly for a balun? Again, we are not looking at buying the farm to purchase these, but what would you recommend?

I would like to put up a UHF antenna(s) for DTV. Has anyone compared the Channel Master 4248/3032 to the Winegard PR 9023. Sometimes mfg. gain figures are subjective, or even suspect. I am considering both roof, and attic mount. Also am considering vertical stacking. If going roof, I don't "need" to stack, with all locals being less than 25 m. , but I probably would like to try a little DXing.

n8wci

That Winegard is a PR 9032, not 9023 as I had said previously,

Steve

Good Quote on the Monster Products... However, I know that the Monster Cable products are superior to the splitters at Rat Shack.

But on another note, what do you recommend for a splitter manufacturer to go with and lastly for a balun? Again, we are not looking at buying the farm to purchase these, but what would you recommend?

Good, cheap splitters/diplexers:
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf and
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C3-C4.pdf

Good cheap balun and combiners/diplexers:http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm

I have an el-cheapo (like a dollar) 900mhz splitter from Lowe's that I can't even remember the brand of which actually outperforms the Pico splitter by just a little. It's probably an impedance or band specific thing like Mike said. Probably the thing to do is to get a few cheap ones from good companies and experiment and see which work best for you.

The RATSHACK uhf/vhf diplexer is actually very good. It's labeled as a hi/lo separator which is wrong.

For antenna stacking however, I do believe that specially designed strip-line combiners can result in less loss than traditional splitters used in reverse. That's really a different discussion though.

I would like to put up a UHF antenna(s) for DTV. Has anyone compared the Channel Master 4248/3032 to the Winegard PR 9023. Sometimes mfg. gain figures are subjective, or even suspect. I am considering both roof, and attic mount. Also am considering vertical stacking. If going roof, I don't "need" to stack, with all locals being less than 25 m. , but I probably would like to try a little DXing.

n8wci

The 4248 and the 9032 are comparable,performance wise,with the windload edge going to the 9032.If you want to Dx,horizontal stacking works much better.With locals that close,a Winegard 4700 or HD-269 would be best.

I've got a couple of 9032's if you want them for a fifty spot,plus shipping.Stacking bars can be made easily using 1" galvanized pipe,a tee,and two elbows.About 3ft spacing,and 12" risers.

If you want extreme gain and directivity you can try this :-)

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/NewTowerAntennas/


Charles,glad you stopped by here.Have any ideas on the best way to protect the R-C LNA from transient surges? Would like to get it back in the air on this stack,but don't want it to let out some more "magic smoke".

Greg B

I live about 35 miles SW of Atlanta and have an HR10-250 D* DVR. I bought a CM 4228 last week and now have it roof mounted with good results on all DTV channels except 11-1, NBC. Curiously 11-1 has about the best consistent signal strength (92) yet I encounter constant video and audio break up. I also purchased a Winegard channel 10 VHS antenna and have that mounted in the attic. I can eliminate the 11-1 problems by connecting only the Winegard to the receiver, but of course I loose all UHF stations. So far my solution has been to hook both antennas up to an old RS remote controlled coax A/B splitter and to toggle to input B when I watch NBC. It works but its less than a elegant solution. Why am I getting break up on 11-1 through the 4228 when the signal strength is so strong? Is it multipath? Even with the Winegard its almost as if I have to defocus it to the point where the signal is in the low 80's to eliminate the break up on 11-1. Before I bought the CM4228 I had a Yagi in the attic and 11-1 was fine until sometime during the Olympics when the problems started. I also bought a UHF/VHS combiner but that didn't seem to work well and separating the antennas with the switch works much better. I have about 50 to 60 feet of coax from the Antenna to the receiver. Is it possible a CM7777 would help my situation and effectively combine the UHF and VHF signals so I could eliminate the A/B coax switch?

Try inserting either a variable of fixed attenuator in your line. If you don't have or can't get one locally you can coil-up 50-75 ft. of RG6 and insert with a barrel splicer. Also since you are using the 4228 as a high band VHF antenna as well as UHF, make sure the two reflector panels are and stay touching each other. In your application a preamp should not be required.

If you want extreme gain and directivity you can try this :-)

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/NewTowerAntennas/
Greg B
Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah!

Well, if you want real VERTICAL directivity, try THIS (http://www.lindsayelec.com/antenna/commercial.catv/superzz-uhf.html)!

Well, if you want real VERTICAL directivity, try THIS (http://www.lindsayelec.com/antenna/commercial.catv/superzz-uhf.html)!

It claims great horizontal directivity, as well.

If only it was broadband instead of single-channel, I'd be seriously drooling. I suppose they work okay for a small range of channels, but probably not over a range from, say, channel 14 to channel 50.

Can you give us a hint as to how much one of those might cost?

The only thing I've read about that might do better is a stacked rhomboid that was talked about in Doug Lung's column a month or two back. That was claiming over 30dB.

The RATSHACK uhf/vhf diplexer is actually very good. It's labeled as a hi/lo separator which is wrong.
Funny you should say that. In another thread, I told someone they could get a VHF/UHF separator from Radio Shack, and they replied that they looked on Shack's site and couldn't find one. I guess that was because they have mis-classified it.

Radio Shack can lose money selling U/V and H/L separators just from the number of sales that result in returned products because the customer didn't realize that the thing he bought did what it did and not what he wanted it to do.

It claims great horizontal directivity, as well.

If only it was broadband instead of single-channel, I'd be seriously drooling. ...

Can you give us a hint as to how much one of those might cost?
The antenna pictured in the page I linked is not the one speced at the top of the spec page link that it contains. The antenna in the linked picture has a horizontal beamwidth of 43 degrees but a vertical beamwidth of 9 degrees.

The one you saw speced at the top of that page was a 2x8 stack, which had a horizontal beamwidth figure of 22 degrees, and their 4x8 stack had a horizontal beamwidth of 11 degrees, all of which have the same, 9 degree vertical beamwidth.

Their prices run from about $1,100 for the 8 bay model, to about $4,800 for the 32 bay. Those prices are in Canadian dollars, so you'll have to apply the appropriate exchange rate.

Hey guys,

Take a ChannelMaster 4221 4-bay antenna. Or, a 4228 8-bay antenna.
Now, go to Lowe's, get $4 worth of aluminum window screening.
Cut to two 4' strips, and then make holes every 6 inches or so.
Tie wrap the mesh screen behind the 4221 or 4228. Instant front-to-back rejection of several dB added on, and better receive gain as well. NOTE: do NOT try this on a 4228 mounted outside. The wind load would be killer, and the screen may just rip off anyway.

Charles,glad you stopped by here.Have any ideas on the best way to protect the R-C LNA from transient surges? Would like to get it back in the air on this stack,but don't want it to let out some more "magic smoke".

Greg B


RS make an in-line coaxial surge protector: http://support.radioshack.com/productinfo/DocumentResults.asp?sku_id=15-1110&Name=Search%20Results&Reuse=N

It passes DC (I checked mine). I couldn't find the specs for insertion loss but I wouldn't think it would be much.

Don't ask me to insure it for you though. :)

Both my RC LNA'a are still up (so far so good, knock on wood).

Now you've got me worrying.

Funny you should say that. In another thread, I told someone they could get a VHF/UHF separator from Radio Shack, and they replied that they looked on Shack's site and couldn't find one. I guess that was because they have mis-classified it.

.


Here it is: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103923&cp=&pg=1&kw=splitter&parentPage=search

It appears they've corrected the mislabeling at least on the website. The chassis of the splitter is correctly labeled, it was just the RS packaging which wasn't. I remember detailed instructions for attaching "VHF lo 2-6" to one port and "vhf 7-13/UHF" to the other. It may still be mislabeled at a local store depending on turnover of these things.

RS has changed their website and it seems more difficult to search now.

Well, if you want real VERTICAL directivity, try THIS (http://www.lindsayelec.com/antenna/commercial.catv/superzz-uhf.html)!
I've long be fascinated by the Super Zig Zag Series UHF Antennas and would like to try one (or two), but there is no way I can pay the price. I have made my own antennas before and have been thinking of making my own zig zag. Has anyone made your own? Could someone give us some design goals, or spec, or something that would help us understand what we are trying to do if we choose to make our own?

Good Day All,

1) What is the proper length for an antennae element needed to receive RF 10?

2) Any mounting rules or directions?

WJXX-DT 25.1 ABC, deg 57°, 15.4 miles, RF 10

Kind Regards,

SoManyInputs

1) What is the proper length for an antennae element needed to receive RF 10?

2) Any mounting rules or directions?

WJXX-DT 25.1 ABC, deg 57°, 15.4 miles, RF 10


The answer is here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/RabbitEars.html#Getting

75" for a straight dipole.

Mount your antenna in free space, with no conductive materials nearby (at least 75" away for channel 10.) Point the dipole so it is perpendicular to the direction of the desired signal.

Max,
I may be interested in your 9032's. Good shape? Was that $50 for the pair? Can they still be disassembled? I'm not too far from you and could pick them up. I need to measure my attic. Is there a way to e-mail directly through this site(I'm new)?

n8wci

RS make an in-line coaxial surge protector: http://support.radioshack.com/productinfo/DocumentResults.asp?sku_id=15-1110&Name=Search%20Results&Reuse=N

It passes DC (I checked mine). I couldn't find the specs for insertion loss but I wouldn't think it would be much.

Don't ask me to insure it for you though. :)

Both my RC LNA'a are still up (so far so good, knock on wood).

Now you've got me worrying.

Didn't see any pic,but I assume it's a small barrel type I've seen advertized elsewhere.

This one looks good,and can take multiple hits?

http://www.comm-omni.com/angel/gacoaxgb.htm

Would this be good between the quad combiner and the preamp? And then a good surge protector to plug the power supply into?

Max,
I may be interested in your 9032's. Good shape? Was that $50 for the pair? Can they still be disassembled? I'm not too far from you and could pick them up. I need to measure my attic. Is there a way to e-mail directly through this site(I'm new)?

n8wci

Yes,they are like new,and that's for the pair.Just email me from my homepage....

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/DXPHOTOS/

BTW,I'll be in Hamilton tomorrow morning at 10AM picking up some tower stuff at R&L electronics.How's that for a coincidence!

I recently upgraded my 25 yr. old RS 160 " vhf/uhf on a 30' tower /w rotor. I used the following:
CM 4228 UHF
Wade VIP-306 VHF
CM 7777 Titan pre-amp
CM 9521A rotor/controller
All new RG-6 coax/ rotor wiring

I now get all Cleveland HD stations with no drop-offs and 92-98 Signal strength. Live about 45 miles south of Parma Farm. Below are some pics.

I have a Channel Master 4221. I am trying to pick up two additional stations at the fringe of my reception area. I have a bar read out system on my TV tuner. I am receiving one flashing bar (not a steady lock) on the system for each channel. I receive a clear digital picture with a one steady bar signal (that is all I need to recieve the station).

Will a preamp help lock in the signals? OR Should I upgrade to the Channel Master 4228, which has a greater range? Any suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks...

Didn't see any pic,but I assume it's a small barrel type I've seen advertized elsewhere.

This one looks good,and can take multiple hits?

http://www.comm-omni.com/angel/gacoaxgb.htm

Would this be good between the quad combiner and the preamp? And then a good surge protector to plug the power supply into?

I'm not sure, but I believe the RS model is "one and done" so you may be better off with the one you found. Yes, the RS is a small barrel type.

I wouldn't think .1db would be significant at all assuming that spec. is correct.

Are you sure the surge was from the antenna itself? To me that would indicate a near-hit by lightning. A direct hit wouldn't have been so subtle I'd think. :)

The reason I say this is I'd think a transient power surge would've come up the other way and so the protector would be better used on the downlead side. If that's the case maybe the surge protector on the PS is all you need.

I'm not sure anything will protect the LNA from a direct lightning strike to the antenna. I know you're properly grounded but for anyone else reading this that is the main safety concern here. The risks we take I guess. :)

Hey Guys, I am just getting into all this HDTV thing, I just bought the TV, hasn't arrived yet, looking forward to hook it up, so I am getting ready trying to learn all this about getting OTA HD programming, I have been reading a lot here but I don't know what to try so I can get every possible channel (VHF and UHF) even thougt the towers have differetn locations. I am only interested in the HD channels since I get local channels thru Directv.
My situation is like this I don't have tall buildings or anything that can block the signals pointing north (+/-5 degrees), I live in a two story house and is one of the few two story house in the neighborhood. this is what antennaweb says for my case:
* red - uhf WTTO-DT 21.1 WB HOMEWOOD AL 1° 10.1 28
* red - uhf WIAT-DT 42.1 CBS BIRMINGHAM AL 1° 10.1 30
* red - vhf WJSU-DT 40.1 ABC ANNISTON AL 51° 29.1 9
* red - uhf WVTM-DT 13.1 NBC BIRMINGHAM AL 5° 10.6 52
* red - uhf WABM-DT 68.1 UPN BIRMINGHAM AL 1° 10.1 36
* red - uhf WBIQ-DT 10.1 PBS BIRMINGHAM AL 1° 10.1 53
* red - uhf WBRC-DT 6.1 FOX BIRMINGHAM AL 4° 10.4 50
* blue - uhf WDBB-DT 18.1 WB BESSEMER AL TBD 287° 35.6 18
* blue - vhf WCFT-DT 33.1 ABC TUSCALOOSA AL 287° 37.2 5

So I am thinking in get me a good directional (VHF-UHF) indoor antenna and I was thinking in something like the Terk HDTVi Indoor VHF/UHF HDTV Antenna (HDTVi) that you can find in solidsignal (webpage)
I would like to know from the experts here what do you think about it and what kind fo setup do you recommend to me, somethign not so expensive please, the wife is already mad about the 1700 dls TV so I don't want to spend more than a couple hundreds in the whole setup.

Thanks in advance
JV

The answer is here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/RabbitEars.html#Getting

75" for a straight dipole.

I checked the link and confirmed that 75" is the length HDTVPrimer advises, but I'm not a believer. The dipole is supposed to be made of two 1/4 wavelength elements, making it half that width. 75" is the width of part of an FM antenna, which works sucky on channel 10.

If a dipole equal to the desired frequency's wave length was a valid design, then someone would be manufacturing them, but no one is.

Hey guys,

Take a ChannelMaster 4221 4-bay antenna. Or, a 4228 8-bay antenna.
Now, go to Lowe's, get $4 worth of aluminum window screening.
Cut to two 4' strips, and then make holes every 6 inches or so.
Tie wrap the mesh screen behind the 4221 or 4228. Instant front-to-back rejection of several dB added on, and better receive gain as well. NOTE: do NOT try this on a 4228 mounted outside. The wind load would be killer, and the screen may just rip off anyway.

I wouldn't mind giving this a try, but can you give more details about the 4' strips and where to make holes? Is the object to cover the entire reflector on my 4221 with screening or only two parts of it? Got any pictures? Thanks!

Grounding question...I have a garage located 200' from house...at the garage I have a 50' telescoping mast...mast is grounded with 8' rod...the garage has power feed from house, but there is no bonding wire on the garage service (so the house service and garage service are at different ground potential)...my question is where do I ground the coax?...at the point where it enters the house or at the grounding rod at the garage?

Will a preamp help lock in the signals? OR Should I upgrade to the Channel Master 4228, which has a greater range? Any suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks...

This is why I hate those on-screen meters. They're great for telling you how well things are working, *IF* they're working, but they're horrible for telling you why things aren't working when they aren't. Quite simply, you could have one of two problems, and the solutions are usually different.

In your case, I'd get the better antenna (4228) first. It solves many multipath problems, and it has more gain for weaker signals.

If you really don't want to mess with the antenna, try a preamp, but make sure the store has a good return policy.

I checked the link and confirmed that 75" is the length HDTVPrimer advises, but I'm not a believer. The dipole is supposed to be made of two 1/4 wavelength elements, making it half that width. 75" is the width of part of an FM antenna, which works sucky on channel 10.

If a dipole equal to the desired frequency's wave length was a valid design, then someone would be manufacturing them, but no one is.

Upon further reflection, I agree. The part on the length of the rabbit ears was the better length to use, or 43".

I recently upgraded my 25 yr. old RS 160 " vhf/uhf on a 30' tower /w rotor. I used the following:
CM 4228 UHF
Wade VIP-306 VHF
CM 7777 Titan pre-amp
CM 9521A rotor/controller
All new RG-6 coax/ rotor wiring

I now get all Cleveland HD stations with no drop-offs and 92-98 Signal strength. Live about 45 miles south of Parma Farm. Below are some pics.
Looks great! Wish I could do that here. Whats the antenna all the way at the top, is that an AM antenna or? Thanks.

Yes,they are like new,and that's for the pair.Just email me from my homepage....

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/DXPHOTOS/

BTW,I'll be in Hamilton tomorrow morning at 10AM picking up some tower stuff at R&L electronics.How's that for a coincidence!
I can't believe you get all those stations. Thats amazing! :cool:

I got my CM 4221 after work today and tried it. I did not have much time to fine tune it. But I had hard time getting anything through it. I first tried it in my bedroom connecting directly to my HD tuner. It was as sensitive to direction as my little Terk indoor antenna if not more so. So I put it in the attic and I could only get one channel to go through. On the other hand, if I move my Terk up to the Attic, I can easily get a few channels.

I read a lot about the CM 4221 before I ordered. I thought this one is supposed to be not very directional. I really expected it to perform better than my little Terk indoor antenna. What could I possiblely done wrong?

Please help.

Jane

Maybe its just me but why do so many people try to make an antenna thats meant to be installed outside with a clear shot at the transmitters work in an attic that blocks at least 50% of the signal. Yea I know there are HMO situations and nobody wants to climb on there roof and install a mast and run cables but in my opinion most of the time if you have reception problems your never gona be happy with a castrated attic install.
Dont take this personal its just my opinion having worked for more than 20 years in the Tv & satellite business.
One reason the terk may be seem better inside is IF I am not mistaken dosn't it have a pre-amp on it. The ch 4221 is a good medium range antenna and should work well if all your stations are in one general direction but they are still a directional antenna and need to be pointed correctly including elevation. Attics aften have wire in the walls that can block signals too.

Grounding question...I have a garage located 200' from house...at the garage I have a 50' telescoping mast...mast is grounded with 8' rod...the garage has power feed from house, but there is no bonding wire on the garage service (so the house service and garage service are at different ground potential)...my question is where do I ground the coax?...at the point where it enters the house or at the grounding rod at the garage?Code says the coax must be grounded near where it enters the building. It also says any equipment grounding rod must be bonded to the main house ground with 6ga copper or better.

I checked the link and confirmed that 75" is the length HDTVPrimer advises, but I'm not a believer. The dipole is supposed to be made of two 1/4 wavelength elements, making it half that width. 75" is the width of part of an FM antenna, which works sucky on channel 10.

If a dipole equal to the desired frequency's wave length was a valid design, then someone would be manufacturing them, but no one is.
Classic dipole lengths are given here:
http://kyes.info/antenna/rabbitear.html#wavetable

However, don't overlook the possibility that an overly long antenna (e.g. the hdtvprimer recommendations) may also provide "accceptable" performance, esp. when used with 45 degree angle.
A matching network in the base of the rabbit ears can also help with non-optimum rabbit ear lengths....cuz hardly anyone wants to mess with changing the length every time they change channels....on top of the orientation and matching network setting....

Of course, rabbit ears are still the worst of the worst....very narrowband vice an antenna with a broadband feed or a folded dipole....

You might find the fol rabbit ear antenna simulations of interest.
They address the fairly narrow bandwidth across the FM band, but the gain numbers should remain about the same when the antenna is scaled to different TV frequency/lengths.
http://users.tns.net/~bb/rabbit.htm

Specialty manufacturers make single channel two-five element antennas, mostly for cable front-end reception...
But how many people only want to watch one channel.....
Same argument would apply to a single element dipole....however, since it would have zero suppression of mutipath, performance would be pathetic...

Which is why antenna manufacturers have developed BROADBAND multi-element antennas that provide suppression of multipath (F/B ratio) and have much more gain than rabbit ears across most of the VHF band...
Of course, they no longer fit on top of your TV set....

I checked the link and confirmed that 75" is the length HDTVPrimer advises, but I'm not a believer. The dipole is supposed to be made of two 1/4 wavelength elements, making it half that width. 75" is the width of part of an FM antenna, which works sucky on channel 10.

If a dipole equal to the desired frequency's wave length was a valid design, then someone would be manufacturing them, but no one is.

I wonder if there's a typo in hdtvprimer data?

Using f = 197 MHz and knowing that 2.997e8 = f * wavelength (can't type symbol for lambda), I see wavelength is approx 1.54 meters. Adjusting a little for the "end effect" mentioned at kyes.info means 1/2 wavelenth is around 74 cm. Not coincidentally that's what kyes.info has in its table for channel 10.

So maybe hdtvprimer data was meant to be in cm but was shown in inches.

Maybe its just me but why do so many people try to make an antenna thats meant to be installed outside with a clear shot at the transmitters work in an attic that blocks at least 50% of the signal. Yea I know there are HMO situations and nobody wants to climb on there roof and install a mast and run cables but in my opinion most of the time if you have reception problems your never gona be happy with a castrated attic install.
Dont take this personal its just my opinion having worked for more than 20 years in the Tv & satellite business.
One reason the terk may be seem better inside is IF I am not mistaken dosn't it have a pre-amp on it. The ch 4221 is a good medium range antenna and should work well if all your stations are in one general direction but they are still a directional antenna and need to be pointed correctly including elevation. Attics aften have wire in the walls that can block signals too.
I've looked at about a dozen different on-air tests that attempted to measure the loss of an indoor/attic mounted antenna vs an outdoor antenna at (usually) 30-foot height.
There are, of course, many parameters that affect this loss, including loss due to lower antenna height (partially due to loss of ground bounce gain), loss due to building materials and the ever difficult to quantify location loss due to perhaps being in a multipath null for one or more desired channels.

Indoor/Attic loss has been found to be more like 13 dB +/- 6 dB.

In addition to this signal loss, there are also degradations due to the Mess O' Multipath....

Recall Bob Chase's 3/28/05 post re outdoor vs attic measurements which generally show 15-25 dB difference:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5399471&#post5399471


50 percent (3 db) is the figment of someone's wishful hoping....

====================================================
So why do we keep trying indoor and attic locations....because for many of us we get lucky and it WORKS!!!!

So we don't have to hassle with mounting an antenna, guy wires, downlead weatherproof entry to the house, ground wire system, etc while adhering to electrical code, building weatherproofing integrity and various other (WAF, etc) restrictions.

Most people would need to hire a professional installer---which is completely contrary to OTA user's primary goal---avoid spending bunches of money---otherwise might as well bite the bullet and pay the cable/sat company....

=====================================================
P.S. My son's attic mounted CM4228 and Preamp reliably picks up ALL of the digital stations in L.A.----
He is 70 miles away from 6000-ft high Mt Wilson....and definitely not line of sight...

I wonder if there's a typo in hdtvprimer data?

Using f = 197 MHz and knowing that 2.997e8 = f * wavelength (can't type symbol for lambda), I see wavelength is approx 1.54 meters. Adjusting a little for the "end effect" mentioned at kyes.info means 1/2 wavelenth is around 74 cm. Not coincidentally that's what kyes.info has in its table for channel 10.

So maybe hdtvprimer data was meant to be in cm but was shown in inches.
Even if cm, still doesn't make sense....and bigger differences for high channel numbers than lower.....weird...

And don't forget the 45 degree angle for Rabbit Ears....the projection onto either the horizontal or vertical component is reduced by 0.707.

FYI: Here is a quickie LPDA CH10 design showing element sizes that are consistent with KYES website I cited above:
[You'll have to remove the *.txt to recover the *.xls file extension.]

Looks great! Wish I could do that here. Whats the antenna all the way at the top, is that an AM antenna or? Thanks.

The top of the mast antenna is the CM 4228 UHF and the lower antenna is the Wade VIP-306 VHF. Then a upper thrust bearing to help support the CM 9521A rotor which is 4' below on the tower. The rotating mast is 10' long. Below on the tower is a DirecTv satellite dish. This setup works great for deep fringe OTA HD broadcasts. :)

Maybe its just me but why do so many people try to make an antenna thats meant to be installed outside with a clear shot at the transmitters work in an attic that blocks at least 50% of the signal. Yea I know there are HMO situations and nobody wants to climb on there roof and install a mast and run cables but in my opinion most of the time if you have reception problems your never gona be happy with a castrated attic install.
Dont take this personal its just my opinion having worked for more than 20 years in the Tv & satellite business.
One reason the terk may be seem better inside is IF I am not mistaken dosn't it have a pre-amp on it. The ch 4221 is a good medium range antenna and should work well if all your stations are in one general direction but they are still a directional antenna and need to be pointed correctly including elevation. Attics aften have wire in the walls that can block signals too.
Thanks for the help. I do have the option to install it outside. But I was just testing it out and see. I did get the CM 7777 to go with it. Somehow, it was worse with the CM 7777. Not even one channel would go through. That is why I want to understand what is wrong before I send my husband up to the roof.

So you think this thing will magically pick up many channels once I move it outside? I can try to hold it out side of my window and see how big of a difference that makes.

Maybe its just me but why do so many people try to make an antenna thats meant to be installed outside with a clear shot at the transmitters work in an attic that blocks at least 50% of the signal.

I've argued the same thing, and I've gotten responses along these lines:

1) Maintenance-free. No corrosion. No antenna getting blown by the wind, falling over, etc. Install it and forget it. The antenna doesn't wear out and need replacing.

2) No chance of lightning strikes. (Ignores the fact that a properly grounded antenna is not a likely target for lightning. However, an indoor install eliminates the difficulties of properly grounding the antenna.)

3) Aesthetics. If it works inside, why have it poking above the roofline. (I think this is bunk. Nobody sees my 54' tower. I have to point it out to them.)

Maybe those aren't important to you. I agree that poor reception has a lower WAF than an antenna on the roof. However, many people have had good success with attic installs in spite of the performance degradation. While I still don't recommend an attic install, I understand why some people attempt them.

I read a lot about the CM 4221 before I ordered. I thought this one is supposed to be not very directional. I really expected it to perform better than my little Terk indoor antenna. What could I possiblely done wrong?

You don't say how far you are from your stations, or if they're full power, etc. so it's hard to know for sure. But most likely the problem is not gain but multipath. Multipath is a just a simple way of saying you're receiving reflections off of other objects (especially buildings, cars, etc. that have high metal content) as well as the primary signal. On analog signals, this looks like "ghosts." The 4221 has more gain, and would thus pick up ghosts better than the Terk. The extreme directional sensitivity suggests multipath as well, since the 4221 has a wide acceptance angle - likely you're getting the reflections into nulls when you fine-tune the aim.

The solution is not a preamplifier. A preamplifier only fixes weak signals - what looks like snow on analog channels. The solution is more directivity. A 4228 would probably be a good choice if the 4221 isn't working. The 4228 is much more directional, which makes it more resistant to multipath.

If you're installing an antenna in your attic, keep it as far away as possible from other metal objects (nails, roofing materials, etc.) I have read many times that people have gotten better reception at the floor of the attic than the peak.

I assume the reason outdoor installs aren't an option for you is because you don't own your roof - either as a renter or as part of a condo. Almost all other rule-based reasons (historical districts are the sole exception) not to put up an outdoor antenna are actually illegal and can be ignored. See: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

My brother in law has a Westinghouse LTV-27W2 27" LCD tv, and he picked up a RadioShack 15-1892 indoor antenna. He was all proud of the open-box deal he got, but alas there was no owners manual.

I was trying to tell him that the HDTV feeds would be void of snow and display in 16:9 instead of 4:3. I tried looking around in Google and checked the Radio Shack site, but I cannot find a PDF of the owners manual for the antenna.

Can anyone tell me what the heck I am doing? What do I set on the attenna? Do I set the TV for Cable TV, Antenna, or what? Also, what do all those fields on antennaweb.org mean? Does anyone have the PDF owners manual they can send me? The only HD experience I have had is with cable (Bright House) and satelite (DirectTV), and my bro-in-law is too cheap to get either of those.

You don't say how far you are from your stations, or if they're full power, etc. so it's hard to know for sure. But most likely the problem is not gain but multipath. Multipath is a just a simple way of saying you're receiving reflections off of other objects (especially buildings, cars, etc. that have high metal content) as well as the primary signal. On analog signals, this looks like "ghosts." The 4221 has more gain, and would thus pick up ghosts better than the Terk. The extreme directional sensitivity suggests multipath as well, since the 4221 has a wide acceptance angle - likely you're getting the reflections into nulls when you fine-tune the aim.

The solution is not a preamplifier. A preamplifier only fixes weak signals - what looks like snow on analog channels. The solution is more directivity. A 4228 would probably be a good choice if the 4221 isn't working. The 4228 is much more directional, which makes it more resistant to multipath.

If you're installing an antenna in your attic, keep it as far away as possible from other metal objects (nails, roofing materials, etc.) I have read many times that people have gotten better reception at the floor of the attic than the peak.

I assume the reason outdoor installs aren't an option for you is because you don't own your roof - either as a renter or as part of a condo. Almost all other rule-based reasons (historical districts are the sole exception) not to put up an outdoor antenna are actually illegal and can be ignored. See: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Hi, thanks a lot for the explanation. Here are the information on the 7 stations I'd like to get. The last one is optional.

1. lt green - uhf WFPT 62 PBS FREDERICK MD 11° 20.1 62
oR blue - uhf WETA 26 PBS WASHINGTON DC 113° 13.6 26
*

* red - uhf WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS WASHINGTON DC 115° 15.2 34
* blue - uhf WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX WASHINGTON DC 114° 14.9 36
* blue - uhf WRC-DT 4.1 NBC WASHINGTON DC 118° 15.2 48
* blue - uhf WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC WASHINGTON DC 115° 15.2 39
* blue - uhf WETA-DT 26.1 PBS WASHINGTON DC 134° 14.3 27

violet - uhf WBDC-DT 50.1 WB WASHINGTON DC 110° 17.7 51

With my Terk indoor antenna, I can get the first 6 with some luck and patient. But almost once a week, the signal would change somehow. Since I use a DVR, I would find out almost always too late.

I do own the house. I actually have a roof top antenna that comes with the house. But it only picks up analog stations. That is why I disconnected it, and tried to put an antenna in the attic. We can install the 4221 on roof top. I just have very little faith with that since I have not seen much coming through that antenna at all. Is it possible to that I have a defect one?

I do own the house. I actually have a roof top antenna that comes with the house. But it only picks up analog stations. That is why I disconnected it, and tried to put an antenna in the attic. We can install the 4221 on roof top. I just have very little faith with that since I have not seen much coming through that antenna at all. Is it possible to that I have a defect one?

First of all, all your stations are within 20 miles so you don't want a preamp. Ever. Signal strength is not going to be your problem. Multipath is, and preamps can make that worse (and they can overload, which makes things bad, too.)

There is no such thing as an antenna that only picks up analog stations. It is highly likely that your existing outdoor antenna would work, though it might have a flaky connection and need to have the balun and maybe the coax connectors replaced.

At 15-20 miles, the 4221 is an excellent choice for an outdoor install. It concerns me that you're getting poor reception with it in your attic - is it possible that your connectors (coax) are bad? I recommend the 4221 to lots of people within 30 miles of transmitters, and they almost never have problems with them - in fact, they report that all their problems go away once they use the 4221.

What do analog UHF stations look like with the 4221? Are they ghosty? Snowy? Both? How about with the outdoor antenna?

You're close enough to Fairfax that calling Fairfax Antennas might be the way to go - they can come out and troubleshoot your existing antenna, or install a replacement. They're one of the best in the country, and they have lots of experience with your area and digital signals. It might seem expensive to call them in at first, but a quality install will beat basic cable in months.

I recently upgraded my 25 yr. old RS 160 " vhf/uhf on a 30' tower /w rotor. I used the following:
CM 4228 UHF
Wade VIP-306 VHF
CM 7777 Titan pre-amp
CM 9521A rotor/controller
All new RG-6 coax/ rotor wiring


Heh. You've got almost the same setup I'm considering to replace my RS 160", except for the Wade. Is it for both low- and high-VHF, or just high-VHF? I'd prefer a high-VHF-only solution, because the only low-VHF signals I get are analog ones that I never watch anymore, and no stations around here are using or going to use low-VHF digital after the analog shutdown. Most of the high-VHF channels will be in use, though. I've got some info at home about an Antennacraft that just does high-VHF, but I forgot the model number.

To give me a sense of scale for your pictures, about how long is the Wade?

I wonder if there's a typo in hdtvprimer data?

Using f = 197 MHz and knowing that 2.997e8 = f * wavelength (can't type symbol for lambda), I see wavelength is approx 1.54 meters. Adjusting a little for the "end effect" mentioned at kyes.info means 1/2 wavelenth is around 74 cm. Not coincidentally that's what kyes.info has in its table for channel 10.

So maybe hdtvprimer data was meant to be in cm but was shown in inches.
75" / 2.54cm/in.= 29.5", which is about an inch wider than the dipoles on the channel 9 antennas that I stacked to slightly improve their front-to-back ratio at the Encore Condominium, so Phanton Gremlin wins the cupie doll.

(can't type symbol for lambda)

FYI: When I have to type a symbol I can't type, and when I care (which I ordinarily don't in these user-group type forums), I find a page elsewhere on the net in which the symbol was used, and cut and paste it into my own sentence.

or hunt through the windows character map..that's fun!

λ

That just gave me a taste for a slice of ¶

Length of a dipole formulas:

feet = 468/f in MHz

inches = 5616/f in MHz

Ron

Heh. You've got almost the same setup I'm considering to replace my RS 160", except for the Wade. Is it for both low- and high-VHF, or just high-VHF? I'd prefer a high-VHF-only solution, because the only low-VHF signals I get are analog ones that I never watch anymore, and no stations around here are using or going to use low-VHF digital after the analog shutdown. Most of the high-VHF channels will be in use, though. I've got some info at home about an Antennacraft that just does high-VHF, but I forgot the model number.

To give me a sense of scale for your pictures, about how long is the Wade?

The Canadian built Paralog VHF-only antenna has been around for over 30 years and was built to handle severe Canadian weather. It is 149" long with the following info:
Lo-VHF (ch 2-6) 6-7 gain (dBd)
Hi-VHF (ch7-13) 10-12 gain (dBd)

To see the antenna : www.wade-antenna.com

The U.S. distributor is : Lafayette Electronic Supply
Layayatte, Indiana
765-447-9660

I just saw this funny-looking one in the "character" map, I wonder what it means? )*(

Anyone know of side-by-side comparison between the DB4 and the 4221? They look to be identical in design but I see posts saying the 4221 performs "much better". Seems a little hard to believe there would be a significant difference.

Hi all,

This is my first post here. I looked through the forums for an answer to this question, but found none so I thought I'd post. I live in Brooklyn, NY. Antenna web lists more than 30 different stations within reach for me, some as close as 4 miles, most a little more than 8 miles. However, I do live in a basement apartment. I really, really don't want to have to mount an antenna on the roof. I've tried three indoor antennas:

1. Terk TV5
2. Zenith Silver Sensor
3. Radio Shack Amplified Indoor Antenna

The only one that gave me any reception was the RS. Unfortunately, it did not seem to get reliable reception. I am using BeyondTV and at times, it got 98% signal (only on two channels though) and at other times, it got 0% and everything in between. For a while, I thought I had found the sweet spot, but it flaked out. Strangely, it didn't matter if I moved the antenna. It could have great reception one minute, then flake out the next and all I'm doing is staring at the screen.

Anyway, I plan to return it to RS and try an outdoor antenna, but I don't want to go with a roof antenna. I don't believe I could do it myself and don't want to spend hundreds of dollars for a professional to install it for me. I was looking around and found the Terk HDTVs which it says is designed for cities where it is not always practical to mount an antenna on the roof and it says it can be mounted on the side of a building since it picks up signals bounced off other buildings.

I know from looking around the forums that people here feel Terk products suck, but this is the only one I've found that is supposed to be able to do this. Does anyone have a reccomendation for something else which might do something similar? I'm thinking of mounting it on top of an awning in the back of the house, which does have a reasonably unobstructed view. Not as good as a roof of course, but not terrible and if I can get it working there, even if not with all stations, I'll be thrilled. From there, it's only around 20 feet or so to my window so it would be reasonably easy to install up there.

Or anternatively, anyone know of a better indoor antenna or would something like the motorola signal booster help me?

Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.

Eric

That sounds like a bunch of marketing hype to me that it can pick up signals that bounce off of buildings. In fact, that is what you don't want. I would suggest that you go out and get a 20' coax and connect it to the indoor antenna that you have and have a friend hold it where you want it to be. If that works reasonably well, then just get a good quality outdoor antenna and install it at that location. If it does work reasonably well, then you have too many obstructions to have it mounted at that location.

In fact, since the stations are within 8 miles, even any indoor/outdoor (one that can withstand the weather) antenna should work including rabbit ears.

Thanks for the advice. Maybe when I go back to RS with my indoor antenna I'll see if they have some kind of decent outdoor antenna and test it around various outdoor locations. . .nice thing about RS is that if it doesn't do the job, I can always return it for a refund. . .

Eric

The 4221 [AKA cm3021] looks to be cheaper, as low as $21.

I've been using it for years [about 15 miles from transmitters, it's a great antenna.

There is a test report here, but it doesn't include the DB4, FWIW.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/antoutpf.htm

Eric,

My buddy down the street from me has what I think is the Terk you're referring to.

He did not want to mount an antenna in his attic either, so he elected to get that Terk which was simple. It works pretty well for him.

Just to give you an idea.... I live on the same block and have a regular antenna in my attic and I get a little better reception than he does -- a little stronger signal. But, his does very well.

Give it a shot, if it doesn't work, take it back.

The 4221 [AKA cm3021] looks to be cheaper, as low as $21.

I've been using it for years [about 15 miles from transmitters, it's a great antenna.

There is a test report here, but it doesn't include the DB4, FWIW.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/antoutpf.htm

Thanks. I know the 4221 is good - I have one on my roof. :) What I'm looking for is some hard data on the DB4, preferrably side-by-side tests with 4221 or similar. One guy in our local HD reception forum says the DB4 is junk and I just don't believe it. I can see how the construction might not be as good but the performance should be nearly identical to the 4221.