Originally posted by PhilJSmith67
What is the terrain like in your area? The 177w station will be tough *anywhere*, but the 29k-watter should be possible. Maybe you're getting more multipath than the receiver can tolerate? Hmmm...

Well, that's the weird thing. I get a MUCH better signal from the 177w station with the Silver Sensor using VERY little effort on my part than I do with the "29k-watter" which I have to move the antenna around like crazy trying to find a spot where the signal is strongest... and it should be the other way around as the 177w station is VHF. Also, I have learned that height doesn't matter much, but that could be due to the fact that I live on a high spot for the area (at least that's what I've been told). The terrain is mostly farmland for miles, though there are radio station towers in the area and cell phone towers (I believe) too! It's mostly rural areas (farmland, trees, etc, etc) between the towers and my location.

Originally posted by PhilJSmith67 I just travelled through the Atlanta metro recently, and as I expected, WTBS was alive and well on 17. Without checking the FCC DB, I gather from your post that one of your digital signals is also on 17? Out of curiousity, do you know if WTBS was receivable at your location prior to the digital signal? If so, you might be struggling with co-channel interference.


Years ago (before all the trouble with lightning) I had a large multi-directional antenna on a rotor, and I was able to pick up WTBS one night very well, but I was only able to pick it up that one night. It was kind of exciting as we didn't have satellite then, and CableTV is not available at our location. However, I live in South Georgia, so I assume that I'm pretty good distance from WTBS.

Originally posted by PhilJSmith67 With UHF, you might be able to find a "hot spot" for WALB-DT that is also a cold spot for WTBS. Have you tried simply probing around the house with a $4 bowtie on the end of some coax?

I've tried my Omni-Directional antenna, which as I said before picked up a (analog) station 73 miles away from me better than some of my closer stations. I think that the antenna was probably a really good one, but considering the "reception" problems in my area, it just couldn't cut the digital channels. I then tried rabbit ears, both the "fancier" type rabbit ears, and the simple rabbit ears on the end of some coax, and I didn't get ANY signal whatsoever trying them... well, the "fancy rabbit ears" got a tad bit of a signal on the 177w station.


~Alan

I live in NE South Dakota and to my dismay I can not receive KABY-DT uhf 28 in Watertown, SD. I emailed the station engineer and was told I should be able to receive it. I installed a Channel Master 3679 with the 7777 pre amp, I aimed it in the direction listed by antennaweb.org, 285 degress, checked the signal strength on my HD Dtivo and nothing, zero signal, I can get their analog signal beautifully though. After doing some research it looks like KABY-DT's signal isn't even being sent my direction which is at about 105 degrees at a distance of 40 miles from the tower. I got this info from www.2150.com and from www.fccinfo.com, they both show a graph of their coverage area. So why do they use a directional antenna and keep their signal from my area? I emailed all this info to the station engineer but I haven't heard anything back. I bought the CM 3679 because I have a station on vhf channel 2 that I receive.

Originally posted by mhaider
I got this info from www.2150.com and from www.fccinfo.com, they both show a graph of their coverage area. So why do they use a directional antenna and keep their signal from my area?


I went to www.2150.com and got a picture, but nothing else. I then went to www.fccinfo.com and I did find out that my local NBC affiliate is using a "directional" antenna, but I can't find anywhere to see if they are broadcasting their signal toward my area. I did however recently check a website CheckHD (http://www.checkhd.com/) which is currently down that showed WALB-DT's signal (and WFXL-DT) covering my area. Where did you look to find the coverage area?!

However, in response to your question (and I know nothing about this stuff, BUT) I would imagine a directional antenna would be cheaper in some way, otherwise I don't see any reason why they would do this.

On another related note though is that one of the digital stations I can occasionally pick up, I have written their engineer and he was impressed that I could pick up their signal as I am not only 52.5 miles away from their tower (in which they are broadcasting at 1000kw), but I'm also BEHIND their "directional antenna"!! ;)

~Alan

Originally posted by Alan Gordon
I went to www.2150.com and got a picture, but nothing else. I then went to www.fccinfo.com and I did find out that my local NBC affiliate is using a "directional" antenna, but I can't find anywhere to see if they are broadcasting their signal toward my area. I did however recently check a website CheckHD (http://www.checkhd.com/) which is currently down that showed WALB-DT's signal (and WFXL-DT) covering my area. Where did you look to find the coverage area?!

However, in response to your question (and I know nothing about this stuff, BUT) I would imagine a directional antenna would be cheaper in some way, otherwise I don't see any reason why they would do this.

On another related note though is that one of the digital stations I can occasionally pick up, I have written their engineer and he was impressed that I could pick up their signal as I am not only 52.5 miles away from their tower (in which they are broadcasting at 1000kw), but I'm also BEHIND their "directional antenna"!! ;)

~Alan

It seems that not all stations have a graph of their broadcast area. I noticed this after looking at some other stations in my area.

"Where did you look to find the coverage area?!"



WALB-DT is directional to the north and WALX-DT is non-directional. Go to

http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/ga/tv_information.asp?m=alb (http://) and click on "complete FCC data" for the analog station and it will give you the info for both analog and digitals.

For some reason that link doesn't work, try this one:
http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/ga/tv_information.asp?m=alb

Originally posted by cpcat
WALB-DT is directional to the north and WALX-DT is non-directional.


Hmm, well, I've actually been to that page before, and found out some interesting info (although I've found that almost every single page about HD in the area tends to have different "facts") but I must admit to not being very knowledgeable when it comes to understanding a lot of that. It's something I have learned more about in the last year, but still lack the know-how to fully comprehend the data.

However, while I knew that WFXL-DT was non-directional (which also helps explain why I get a better signal from them than WALB-DT), I was unaware that WALB-DT was directional to the North. Makes sense for them to be pointing it toward the Leesburg area, and since I'm West (sorta Northwest actually), it's a little better than I expected. There is a link on the site showing where WALB-DT's transmitter is and the surrounding area. Click HERE (http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapgen/gif?lon=-84.188611&lat=31.612778&iwd=750&iht=750&mark=-84.188611,31.612778,bluestar,WALB_ALBANY_GA&on=water,miscell,counties,places,CITIES,&off=streets,GRID,shorelin&ht=1.5&wid=1.5) to see it. I live on that red line (before you get to the end). Is there any hope of picking up that signal?!


~Alan

Originally posted by Alan Gordon
Hmm, well, I've actually been to that page before, and found out some interesting info (although I've found that almost every single page about HD in the area tends to have different "facts") but I must admit to not being very knowledgeable when it comes to understanding a lot of that. It's something I have learned more about in the last year, but still lack the know-how to fully comprehend the data.

However, while I knew that WFXL-DT was non-directional (which also helps explain why I get a better signal from them than WALB-DT), I was unaware that WALB-DT was directional to the North. Makes sense for them to be pointing it toward the Leesburg area, and since I'm West (sorta Northwest actually), it's a little better than I expected. There is a link on the site showing where WALB-DT's transmitter is and the surrounding area. Click HERE (http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapgen/gif?lon=-84.188611&lat=31.612778&iwd=750&iht=750&mark=-84.188611,31.612778,bluestar,WALB_ALBANY_GA&on=water,miscell,counties,places,CITIES,&off=streets,GRID,shorelin&ht=1.5&wid=1.5) to see it. I live on that red line (before you get to the end). Is there any hope of picking up that signal?!


~Alan

Alan, I would suggest a Channel Master 4228 antenna with a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. This setup should work just fine for you. I use the same setup (though a CM7775 preamp) and pick up stations perfectly at 62 miles away (one outputting at 4.2kW). Also, I can pick up a station 94 miles away in the evening, most of the time. The CM4228 is a high-gain UHF antenna, but will also pick up the high-band VHF channels also, so this should work fine for you. Also, if you don't get a good enough signal while aiming the antenna directly at the tower, rotate it around some (between 10-20 degrees), because the signal may reflect of an object, this is what I have to do with the 4.2kW station. One more thing, if the antenna and preamp is getting too much gain from a station, it will overload the ATSC tuner and act like you aren't getting any signal. With the CM4228 (and CM4221), you can rotate the antenna 180-degrees and try picking it up off the backside.

Originally posted by taz291819
Alan, I would suggest a Channel Master 4228 antenna with a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp. This setup should work just fine for you.


Unfortunately, I am not able to put one of those up! My choices are really either use a Winegard "SquareShooter", indoor antenna, OR possibly a Winegard Sensar II. My best shot would be one of the first two though...


~Alan

Originally posted by Alan Gordon
Unfortunately, I am not able to put one of those up! My choices are really either use a Winegard "SquareShooter", indoor antenna, OR possibly a Winegard Sensar II. My best shot would be one of the first two though...


~Alan

Alan,

If you're interested in the Winegard Sensar II, I just took mine down last Wednesday and installed a CM antenna. The Sensar is in perfect condition, I had it up about three months, the reason I took it down is because I live in a rural area and I just needed a bigger antenna. I plan on putting it on Ebay, that's where I got it, so if you're interested PM me.

Mark

Originally posted by Alan Gordon
I went to www.2150.com and got a picture, but nothing else. www.2150.com/broadcast

Alan,
The NBC is doable at 35 mi and 29kw (you're well within the directional grid with significant signal towards you) with something like a CM 4221 outdoors or maybe a 4228 in the attic. The 1700 watt Fox station I'd say you're best chance would be an outdoor high band vhf antenna like an Antennacraft y10 7-13 or even a cut channel 12 from various manufacturers. I don't really think you've got a chance on the low power vhf station with an indoor antenna. The VHF channel may register higher on your meter currently but that doesn't always mean much. VHF seems to register higher without getting a watchable signal in my experience.

Originally posted by cpcat
The NBC is doable at 35 mi and 29kw (you're well within the directional grid with significant signal towards you) with something like a CM 4221 outdoors or maybe a 4228 in the attic.

Actually, the NBC is 8.1 miles away from me at 29kw. Actually, we don't have an attic or else I would have put a BIG SUCKER in there YEARS ago!!!

Originally posted by cpcat The 1700 watt Fox station I'd say you're best chance would be an outdoor high band vhf antenna like an Antennacraft y10 7-13 or even a cut channel 12 from various manufacturers. I don't really think you've got a chance on the low power vhf station with an indoor antenna.


Actually, I've manage to pick up the FOX channel 12 with a Zenith Silver Sensor around the midnight area with extremely bad pixelation, audio breakups (and loss of picture when I fire up my DD receiver). The other problem is the channel doesn't come in any earlier when my local FOX affiliate will be showing the programs in HD. The programs not in HD, I can watch a good signal of the analog version using my Silver Sensor.


[i]The VHF channel may register higher on your meter currently but that doesn't always mean much. VHF seems to register higher without getting a watchable signal in my experience. [/B]

Well, that has generally been my experience too, as I've managed to pick up WFSU-DT (32), WCTV-DT (46) and WTVM-DT (47) with a smaller signal than WFXL-DT (12), but just a hair difference. However, I have managed to get a signal from WALB-DT (17) up to the same amount as I have gotten WFXL-DT (12), and gotten NO picture from it whatsoever. Another weird thing is that I know someone who has gotten in WFXL-DT from (about) ANOTHER 8 miles away from me (16 miles away from the tower instead of my 7.9 miles) using a Winegard Sensar Array on a 30 foot pole. They were not able to get WALB-DT in at all.

I have also experienced that several of the stations (WFSU-DT, WTVM-DT) I have managed to pick up had a higher signal when I put the Silver Sensor on top of the TV whereas when I sat it up on a stack of stuff (which is what I have to do to pick up WCTV-DT, or get a better signal out of WFXL-DT and WALB-DT), they don't have a signal, or start having drop-outs in picture and sound.


~Alan

I'm experiencing a very strange phenomenon: I'm using a Zenith Silver Sensor sitting on top of my media rack and any time I utilize an optical audio out on my receiver my OTA signal strength drops by 25% or more. Only optical - use of any other type of connection causes no loss. I'm using quad shielded RG6 so interference should be a non-issue, right? Any ideas why this is occuring? And more importantly, how to fix the issue?

I need some help with getting NBC. I currently have a Winegard HD6065P installed outside. I have problems getting a strong signal locked in 40% of the time. When I tune it and get about 89 signal strength (best I can get), it then will drop to mid 30's and bounce back to 80 on occasion, resulting in signal not found displayed. Should I upgrade the antenna agiain? Is there a certain time of day that I should tune it in? I do not have any hills or trees in the line of sight and am about 48 miles from the tower. Its digital channel 41 in my area, N. of Dallas TX. Thanks for any suggestions.

Originally posted by housecor
I'm experiencing a very strange phenomenon: I'm using a Zenith Silver Sensor sitting on top of my media rack and any time I utilize an optical audio out on my receiver my OTA signal strength drops by 25% or more.


I can't really help you, but I also have the same problem.


~Alan

I need some help with getting NBC. I currently have a Winegard HD6065P installed outside. I have problems getting a strong signal locked in 40% of the time. When I tune it and get about 89 signal strength (best I can get), it then will drop to mid 30's and bounce back to 80 on occasion, resulting in signal not found displayed. Should I upgrade the antenna agiain? Is there a certain time of day that I should tune it in? I do not have any hills or trees in the line of sight and am about 48 miles from the tower. Its digital channel 41 in my area, N. of Dallas TX. Thanks for any suggestions.

That's an FM antenna which will do very poorly at uhf frequencies. I'm surprised you're getting any signal at all. That station is 890kw at 48 miles non-directional so you should be able to easily get it with something like a CM 4221 but a CM 4228 might be safer especially if you have other stations that are weaker that you're going for. I'm assuming you use it also for FM? FM can be a source of preamp overload as well and often you can't have both TV/FM over the same line if using a preamp. If you're not using a preamp then it may not be a problem except for maybe vhf channels 6 and 7 (as long as strong local FM signals don't overload your digital receiver). FYI the FM band is between VHF channels 6 and 7.

Wow. Good catch, cpcat.

A preamp on an FM antenna will probably harm channel 6 (82-88 MHz), but it will cause even more trouble for channels 8 through 13 (which span 180-216 MHz). This is because the first harmonic of FM stations falls in those channels. Amplifiers can cause harmonics for existing stations that they receive and amplify.

I have a 50kW blowtorch down the road from me on 99.9, and it kills Channel 11 on any type of roof antenna, unless I insert an FM Trap on the line.

I have a 50kW blowtorch down the road from me on 99.9, and it kills Channel 11 on any type of roof antenna, unless I insert an FM Trap on the line.

Something similar happened to me. I was trying out a preamplifier manufactured in England hooked to my UHF antenna. I was frustrated as heck because I couldn't get a signal (even on the strong stations) with this fancy expensive new preamp I'd just bought.
I put in an FM trap I happened to have and viola! Maybe they don't use FM in England, I'm not sure.

Does FM screw up Ch. 5? My Winegard VHF pre-amp has a built-in FM trap, which I set to FM Trap-In, but I just want to make sure. BTW, it's connected to a single-channel antenna.

Originally posted by Alan Gordon
Unfortunately, I am not able to put one of those up! My choices are really either use a Winegard "SquareShooter", indoor antenna, OR possibly a Winegard Sensar II. My best shot would be one of the first two though...


Alan, it sounds like you're trying to do this with an indoor antenna. I don't have to tell you that indoor installations aren't nearly as good as outdoor ones. However, since you're trying to get difficult stations (based on wattage and directionality), I'd strongly suggest getting at least a Channel Master 4-bay or 8-bay antenna. They *can* be installed indoors. The 4-bay is 4 feet tall by 2 feet wide and the 8-bay is 4x4. They should give you a significant upgrade over your current setup.

As an alternative, you could look into AntennasDirect's 2-bay DB2, 4-bay DB4 or 8-bay DB8. Generally, the AntennasDirect bowtie-models outperform Channel Master's by a small margin.

Originally posted by sregener
Alan, it sounds like you're trying to do this with an indoor antenna. I don't have to tell you that indoor installations aren't nearly as good as outdoor ones.

Whenever I first got my Hughes HTL-HD receiver, I had my system hooked up to a omni-directional antenna (I know, I know), but it had a "accident", and I was told that if I got a Silver Sensor antenna and couldn't receive channels from 8 miles away, something was wrong. I got it and I got a stronger signal than I did, but it was still no picture. Recently I wrote my local FOX station regarding their digital channel and was told that they were surprised I couldn't get their digital signal (they must have assumed that I was using a large antenna). I decided then to try and play with the Silver Sensor some and started finding out that I could (sometimes) pick up WCTV-DT from 73 miles away, WFSU-DT (from I don't know how many miles away), but both those stations are broadcasting at full-power. However, I have also been able to pick up (on several occasions) WTVM-DT from 52.5 miles away broadcasting at 20kw at 300 feet on the backside of their directional antenna yet I have only been able to pick up WFXL-DT a few times from 7.9 miles away and NEVER been able to pick up WALB-DT from 8.1 miles away.


Originally posted by sregener
However, since you're trying to get difficult stations (based on wattage and directionality), I'd strongly suggest getting at least a Channel Master 4-bay or 8-bay antenna. They *can* be installed indoors. The 4-bay is 4 feet tall by 2 feet wide and the 8-bay is 4x4. They should give you a significant upgrade over your current setup.

If it was up to me, I'd put up whatever I needed to, but I still live at home, and due to my financial status, I probably will be for another two years. My Mom does NOT want a large antenna outside. We've had them over the years, but lightning doesn't want us having them, or our neighbors (my Uncle and Aunt) who took their antenna down years ago. Several people on here have mentioned that I could get one of these antennas installed in the attic, but since we don't have one, that's not really an option for me.

In fact, my only options really seem to be a Winegard SquareShooter or a Winegard Sensar Array antenna mounted on our satellite pole at 10.5 feet high. I have had high hopes that the SquareShooter would pick up the signal I was wanting but I never could find out what "color" the SquareShooter was supposed to be, but I read yesterday that it was listed as red, and since Antennaweb.org says that is what I need to pick up those two channels, I think I will give it a try and pick-up and install the antenna next week. If that doesn't work, I guess my next try would either be the Sensar Array antenna or just wait until the stations power up by July 31st 2006, if I still live here by that time! ;)


~Alan

The CM4221 or 4228 is not much larger than the square shooter.

Originally posted by taz291819
The CM4221 or 4228 is not much larger than the square shooter.
The Square Shooter is about 16" square. The 4221 is about twice the size. The 4228 is double that of the 4221.

Originally posted by taz291819
Does FM screw up Ch. 5?

If the FM stations are strong enough, they could cause cross-modulation products with an amplifier that could affect any VHF channel. Even if the interference isn't visible on any channel, it could still be causing the receiver to desensitize. The net result is lower effective TV signal levels reported by the receiver.

If you've ever listened to a distant FM station while driving by a radio tower of another station that's close to the same frequency, you've experienced desensitization, in which the radio gets a "muddy" sound or completely loses the station momentarily.

I'm in metro Detroit and am getting a 4228 installed tomorrow.

For the past two years I've used a handful of antennas, including the Silver Sensor, various Terk POS', Radio Shack models, and a Jensen powered antenna that gave me the best performance, until it died, that is. All these antennas were indoor. The Silver Sensor is working fine for Olympic coverage on WDIV, Detroit's NBC station, and is set up as a temporary solution since my Jensen died and until my 4228 is installed.

I'm pretty excited about having this antenna installed, especially since this'll be the third try, with the first two appointments being cancelled for various reasons.

I'm about 22-25 miles from the transmitters, so I'm thinking the 4228 should give me good service. I'll try to update here after the install just as an FYI.

Originally posted by dswallow
The Square Shooter is about 16" square. The 4221 is about twice the size. The 4228 is double that of the 4221.

The 4221 is 20" x 35"
The 4228 is 39.5" x 36"

Though the 4228 is roughly twice the size of the Square Shooter, it's still relatively small compared to most yagis.

I'll admit the 4228 is a heavy SOB for it's size.:)

I've got a channel master 4228 and cm 7775 amp . The antenna is mounted outside. I found out after I got the amp a couple of the stations I want are digital VHF :rolleyes: . How can I get a VHF antenna in the mix without a new amp ? BTW the wife factor says if I get another antenna it has to go in the attic. Any idea's or suggestions would be appreciated . Thanks

Originally posted by lenbo
I've got a channel master 4228 and cm 7775 amp . The antenna is mounted outside. I found out after I got the amp a couple of the stations I want are digital VHF :rolleyes: . How can I get a VHF antenna in the mix without a new amp ? BTW the wife factor says if I get another antenna it has to go in the attic. Any idea's or suggestions would be appreciated . Thanks

The CM7775 preamplifier does NOT PASS VHF. This is why I usually recommend that people buy the 7777 or a Winegard model.

You could buy a VHF antenna like the Winegard PR5030 or if you just need hi-VHF (channels 7-13) you could look at the Winegard YA-1713. But you're going to have to run a separate coax line from that antenna to the point *after* the indoor unit of your preamp if you keep the 7775. They can then be combined with a simple splitter used in reverse (2 inputs, one output.)

BTW the wife factor says if I get another antenna it has to go in the attic. Any idea's or suggestions would be appreciated . Thanks My ex-wife said if I put up another antenna she would divorce me.

I've got a channel master 4228 and cm 7775 amp . The antenna is mounted outside. I found out after I got the amp a couple of the stations I want are digital VHF . How can I get a VHF antenna in the mix without a new amp ? BTW the wife factor says if I get another antenna it has to go in the attic. Any idea's or suggestions would be appreciated . Thanks

Your best option is to bite the bullet and get the 7777 amp, then use it on the combined setting for uhf/vhf. The 4228 is a pretty good antenna for the high band vhf and would probably be better outside for high band vhf than any antenna in your attic would be.

Another option would be to find a uhf/vhf diplexer that passes DC on the uhf leg. This way you could insert another vhf antenna anywhere along the line and still get the DC power to the 7775 on the 4228. You'd rather keep the preamp as close to the antenna as possible. VHF has relatively little loss along the cable length so you should be able to get away with not amplifying it.

Whats the range of VHF signals ? I understand the curvature of the earth comes in to play with UHF, is VHF the same ? The digital hi-band VHF station I want to get is 72 miles away. Could the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 be used for my needs ? Thanks to everyone that has helped me !!! This is a great forum . :D

VHF at 72 miles is very doable if the station is at full power. What station are you trying for? I couldn't find a digital vhf other than an NBC 2 in your area. Go to http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/al/tv_information.asp?m=mob for your area station info (in case you didn't know of this link already).

Ahh, WALA FOX is it? I missed it the first time I looked. AFAICT, it is at 124kw non-directional which is pretty much smokin' power for vhf. The Y10 7-13 should do fine barring some obstruction or geographical problem.

I forgot, this is in your attic, isn't it? I still think you need to consider the 7777 and use your outside 4228. I think a 4228 outside may still be better than the 7-13 in your attic.

The 4228 got installed today, and it's sweet. You can't see it at all from the front or even side of the house, it's only visible from the back, which is perfect. I'm now getting what appears to be an 80-90% signal (it's a bar, not a number) on all the .1 channels, which is awesome.

Only thing that's kind of a drag is that the signal doesn't pass thru my 5x8 multiswitch very well, and I can't get anything OTA on the other side of the diplexer. Installer called the owner of his company and was told that the multiswitch can oftentimes degrade the signal, sometimes so much so that it virtually kills it. Not a real big deal though, I'll just get a splitter if I need to send the signal elsewhere.

So, I'm rockin and rollin with a new antenna, and I'm happy that I won't have to fidget with the stupid indoor antenna anymore

Thanks for the info, good link . Gonna try and convince the wife about getting the y10-7-13 outside. You were correct about FOX , I have this station on my locals with directv but I want to watch my Saints in HD !!! Again thanks for the help, I'll post the results once I get everything up and running.

Originally posted by lenbo
Whats the range of VHF signals ? I understand the curvature of the earth comes in to play with UHF, is VHF the same ? The digital hi-band VHF station I want to get is 72 miles away. Could the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 be used for my needs ? Thanks to everyone that has helped me !!! This is a great forum . :D

VHF bends very readily. Your primary problem may be co-channel interference. Co-channel interference is when two stations are on the same frequency, in different directions. For instance, I have a Channel 2 that is 75 miles north of me, and another that is about 100 miles south. Sometimes I can't get either of them clearly because the other is overriding the signal.

Also, VHF can suffer interference with tropospheric ducting and e-skip, where distant signals propogate long distances. Although not terribly common, there will be days where you probably won't be able to watch your 72-mile VHF signal and will be able to watch another VHF signal from 1000 miles away. I've received Flagstaff, AZ from southeastern Minnesota once, while a local station 45 miles away was a mess of interference.

Originally posted by phenom
The 4228 got installed today, and it's sweet. You can't see it at all from the front or even side of the house, it's only visible from the back, which is perfect. I'm now getting what appears to be an 80-90% signal (it's a bar, not a number) on all the .1 channels, which is awesome.

Only thing that's kind of a drag is that the signal doesn't pass thru my 5x8 multiswitch very well, and I can't get anything OTA on the other side of the diplexer. Installer called the owner of his company and was told that the multiswitch can oftentimes degrade the signal, sometimes so much so that it virtually kills it. Not a real big deal though, I'll just get a splitter if I need to send the signal elsewhere.

So, I'm rockin and rollin with a new antenna, and I'm happy that I won't have to fidget with the stupid indoor antenna anymore

I have started to think this way about the OTA going thru the multiswitch and needing a diplexer and replacing it with a straight coax run from the antenna to the receiver. KISS is hitting me in the face. Pay the extra cost of the coax run versus getting fancy with a multiswitch which takes in the antenna feed and then using the diplexer. Put a splitter on the antenna and deal with it. I'm planning on getting the HD DirecTivo and the OTA receiver in the box is claimed to be very signal sensitive. For my other HDTV, I was planning on getting the HTL-HD or the Sammy TS360. Anybody have issues with the OTA portion of those receivers?

I'm sure there is a simple, obvious answer to my question, so let me apologize for asking right now.

I had used antennaweb.org to get station info previously, but for some reason it won't work for me now, and I can't see why not. Can anyone tell why this isn't working?

1. I go to the home page and select "Choose an antenna"
2. On the next page I enter my address/zip info and click "submit"
3. It takes me to the "Stations" page, and I click "Show all stations"
4. Then, no matter if I hit 'enter' or select "View street level map", it just brings me back to the "Stations" page again. I can't get it to show the channel list, etc. ???

I appreciate your indulgence.:)

It goes down from time to time. I'd just try again later.

My main DTV station's are at 260-270 degree's. There's one DTV station I would like to get at 180 degree's from the main one's. Can I take the screen off the 4228 to get the off axis station without loosing the main stations ? Is the screen there for gain or to block multi-path signals and ghosting ? Since all I want is DTV stations would this work ?

lenbo, is the off-axis station at full power and not too far away? You might be just fine. I can get the full power NYC stations 30 miles away when aiming about 120 degrees away towards Philadelphia with my 4228.

Took the screen off the channel master 4228 to try and get a additional channel . Well I had success. WTVY comes in just great .The other channels don't appear to have suffered any , in fact they all seem to come in a few points better. :D

Originally posted by drjeckl
I have started to think this way about the OTA going thru the multiswitch and needing a diplexer and replacing it with a straight coax run from the antenna to the receiver. KISS is hitting me in the face. Pay the extra cost of the coax run versus getting fancy with a multiswitch which takes in the antenna feed and then using the diplexer. Put a splitter on the antenna and deal with it. I'm planning on getting the HD DirecTivo and the OTA receiver in the box is claimed to be very signal sensitive. For my other HDTV, I was planning on getting the HTL-HD or the Sammy TS360. Anybody have issues with the OTA portion of those receivers?

Yeah, I went out and picked up another diplexer, and had no luck with it at all. I already had the coax run for the antenna, since I had an inside antenna before, so no big deal. I just hoped I'd get the most out of my multiswitch.

Originally posted by lenbo
Is the screen there for gain or to block multi-path signals and ghosting ?

For posterity in the thread, here's the answer.

The screen provides two functions. First, it reflects the signal from the primary direction *back* at the active elements, effectively doubling gain. Secondly, the screen rejects signals from the opposite direction, increasing the front-to-back ratio of the antenna. This rejection helps to block multipath (which looks like ghosting on analog signals, so your "and ghosting" is redundant.)

Removing the screen will work in some situations and not in others. For very weak signals, or in areas with extreme multipath, removing the screen will likely cause problems. The only way to know for sure is to try.

Hey guys, I'm in the West L.A., CA. area and I'm thinking of jumping to DirecTV and getting locals with an off air antenna. Couple hitches to that are that I live in a condo on the first floor (out of 2 floors), and there's a pretty big building right next to me.

The HOA should allow me to put the dish on a common wall (there are 3 others already there), but as for an antenna, I have no clue. The best bet would seem to be one of those clip on dish antennas, but as I've seen no mention of them here, not sure how well it would perform getting HD signals. According to antennaweb, I'm about 21 miles away from the transmimtters, and need a yellow level antenna (unless I tell it I'm in a multi story building, in which case it says I need a red).

Any suggestions would be appreciated as to a good solution to get the best HD signal possible.

Thanks!

Originally posted by bfranci
The best bet would seem to be one of those clip on dish antennas, but as I've seen no mention of them here, not sure how well it would perform getting HD signals. According to antennaweb, I'm about 21 miles away from the transmimtters, and need a yellow level antenna (unless I tell it I'm in a multi story building, in which case it says I need a red).


The reason why it's not mentioned (though you could do a search and find lots of mentions of it) is because all the clip-on antennas are horrible performers. You would do better with a quality indoor antenna like the Zenith Silver Sensor. That'd be my first try, as well.

Not that I'm thinking of getting it, but does anyone know how well (or horribly, be that as it may) the TERK HDTVi(ndoor) antenna works........................?

Reports are mixed between good and fair on technical performance, but in common with most reports is the excessive drain on the wallet component.

Originally posted by GRN
Not that I'm thinking of getting it, but does anyone know how well (or horribly, be that as it may) the TERK HDTVi(ndoor) antenna works........................?

If you're referring to the one that retails for $40 at places like Best Buy- don't bother- I picked up a whopping four channels with it and none of them even had a stable signal. I was hoping to upgrade from my VHF/UHF "Rabbit Ears" antenna which picked up 16 channels and most were watchable. You may have better luck but for me this thing just flat out doesn't work.

Indoor antenna sufficient for HDTV?

I have ordered the Gemini ZHDTV1 HDTV-UHF Digital Indoor Antenna. This antenna has great reviews at amazon.com. In fact, the reviews are better than I have seen for any piece of electronic equipment, ever.

My question is would I also benefit from installing the Winegards SS-1000, or the SS-2000 antenna which has a built-in 12dB UHF/VHF amplifier better suited for HDTV OFF-AIR reception? (Does the HR 10-250 have inputs for two antenna? The reason I ask is I have heard that to receive all HDTV signals you may need to change the direction of your antenna, and if you only had a stationary outdoor antenna, wouldn't this then present a limitation in this regard?)


I would save time and money if I had the firm that installs my new triple LNB satellite dish and new cables would install this antenna at the same time, if needed.

The installer said I could probably get by with the indoor antenna do to my close location to the HDTV towers. But then he stated that for best reception of non-HD channels I should watch the local over-the-air station broadcasts rather than the local station broadcasts from DirecTV. He told me that the over-the-air broadcast of the local channels are all digital. I had thought that all over-the-air channels with the exception of 480p and above were analog. I guess I was wrong in believing this?

But then after talking to him I thought if I were to follow his advice then shouldn't I get an antennae that also excels at receiving VHF signals? (The Gemini ZHDTV1 HDTV-UHF is principally a UHF antennae.)


Thanks.

If you live in an area where you already have VHF DTV stations, of course you'll want a VHF antenna.

Furthermore, if any of your analog stations are currently on VHF, *and* you don't plan on replacing your antenna again in 2007 or so, get a VHF antenna now. The reason is that many of the VHF stations (especially VHF-High ch 7 through 13) temporarily on UHF for DTV will return to VHF after the "analog sunset."

Thanks. Now wondering whether I can actually receive these over-the-air non-HD channels with my HR 10-250 and pending Panasonic commercial plasma? Apparently the Panny does not have a NTSC tuner; does the
HR 10-250 have a NTSC tuner? IF not, then what must I purchase/install to receive these stations? Thanks!

I live in about 30 miles west of Nashville, TN (37187). I live on the top of a hill in a single story home. I have a CM 3014 (UHF range 15 miles, VHF 25 miles)antenna in my attic, a CM 3043 distribution amp, and 30-40' of Walmart cable going in to a cheap 2-way splitter and then a Motorola HDT100. The following is my list of channels at my address:

* yellow - vhf WSMV-DT 4.1 NBC Nashville TN 83° 19.9 10
* yellow - uhf WTVF-DT 5.1 CBS NASHVILLE TN 65° 26.7 56
* yellow - uhf WNPT-DT 46.1 PBS NASHVILLE TN Testing 101° 21.9 46
* yellow - uhf WNPX-DT 28.1 PAX Cookeville TN 66° 26.2 36
* yellow - uhf WKRN-DT 2.1 ABC Nashville TN 101° 21.9 27
* lt green - uhf WZTV-DT 17.1 FOX NASHVILLE TN 66° 26.2 15
* red - uhf WNAB-DT 58.1 WB NASHVILLE TN 66° 26.2 23
* violet - uhf WUXP-DT 30.1 UPN NASHVILLE TN 66° 26.2 21

I receive all the channels with zero problems except for PBS, PAX, and UPN. PBS has some dropout, but is watchable . PAX tunes and remaps on my stb, but is pixelated or dropped 95% of the time and is unwatchable. UPN, being the worst of the three, will not tune at all.

In what logical order should I start changing or upgrading to pull in these three channels? My UHF stations are 5-10 miles over the antenna's rated range, so should I start with a different antenna? Upgrade the coax and spliiter? Buy a preamp? Am I trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip by mounting in the attic? Can you use the analog station to judge the strength of the digital signal?

Here's my local stations based on http://www.antennaweb.org :

* yellow - uhf KXTV-DT 10.1 ABC Sacramento CA 185° 16.6 61
* yellow - uhf KTXL-DT 40.1 FOX Sacramento CA 189° 14.7 55
* yellow - uhf KVIE-DT 6.1 PBS Sacramento CA 189° 14.7 53
* yellow - uhf KSPX-DT 48 PAX SACRAMENTO CA FCC Ext 190° 15.1 48
* yellow - uhf KQCA-DT 58.1 WB STOCKTON CA 181° 14.4 46
* yellow - uhf KOVR-DT 13.1 CBS Stockton CA 185° 16.6 25
* yellow - uhf KMAX-DT 31.1 UPN SACRAMENTO CA 186° 14.8 21
* yellow - uhf KCRA-DT 3.1 NBC Sacramento CA 186° 16.2 35

So I take it these digital stations broadcast both HD and non-HD signals, and, therefore, can be picked up with just the ATSC tuner? Therefore, at least for these stations, no NTSC Tuner needed? And appears that all I will need is a decent indoor UHF antenna (towers same orientation and from 14-16 miles from residence)? Thanks.

Originally posted by igreg
Here's my local stations based on http://www.antennaweb.org :

* yellow - uhf KXTV-DT 10.1 ABC Sacramento CA 185° 16.6 61
* yellow - uhf KTXL-DT 40.1 FOX Sacramento CA 189° 14.7 55
* yellow - uhf KVIE-DT 6.1 PBS Sacramento CA 189° 14.7 53
* yellow - uhf KSPX-DT 48 PAX SACRAMENTO CA FCC Ext 190° 15.1 48
* yellow - uhf KQCA-DT 58.1 WB STOCKTON CA 181° 14.4 46
* yellow - uhf KOVR-DT 13.1 CBS Stockton CA 185° 16.6 25
* yellow - uhf KMAX-DT 31.1 UPN SACRAMENTO CA 186° 14.8 21
* yellow - uhf KCRA-DT 3.1 NBC Sacramento CA 186° 16.2 35

So I take it these digital stations broadcast both HD and non-HD signals, and, therefore, can be picked up with just the ATSC tuner? Therefore, at least for these stations, no NTSC Tuner needed? And appears that all I will need is a decent indoor UHF antenna (towers same orientation and from 14-16 miles from residence)? Thanks.
That's correct; they're ATSC stations. No NTSC tuner needed. And they're all currently UHF.

Originally posted by Southern Soul

* yellow - uhf WNPT-DT 46.1 PBS NASHVILLE TN Testing 101° 21.9 46
* yellow - uhf WNPX-DT 28.1 PAX Cookeville TN 66° 26.2 36
* violet - uhf WUXP-DT 30.1 UPN NASHVILLE TN 66° 26.2 21

In what logical order should I start changing or upgrading to pull in these three channels? My UHF stations are 5-10 miles over the antenna's rated range, so should I start with a different antenna? Upgrade the coax and spliiter? Buy a preamp? Am I trying to squeeze blood out of a turnip by mounting in the attic? Can you use the analog station to judge the strength of the digital signal?

Well, it appears that the directional antennas are biased against you. WNPT shouldn't give you trouble. WNPX has a lot of power, so even a large directional bias against you shouldn't be a big deal. WUXP is running at modified-hamster-wheel power and is only sending about 2/10 of that in your direction, so you're going to need some luck to make things work there.

You will get the best bang for the buck by moving the antenna outdoors. This will gain you a minimum of 3db of gain, and probably more. It will also help to eliminate some multipath that your attic is creating.

That said, I know a lot of people run into this same problem of wanting perfect reception without anybody knowing they're getting it. And the UHF section of your antenna is little more than a joke. If you want, you can keep it for VHF signals and get a CM4228 or CM3021 (8-bay or 4-bay bowtie designs, respectively) and a CM#0549 to connect the two antennas together into one downlead. (Note: you cannot use a simple splitter, you must use something to filter out unwanted signals.) The 3021 is 2' wide by 4' tall and the 4228 is 4'x4' square. Both should offer significant improvements of your UHF reception, even in your attic. No guarantees that it will be enough, but it does dramatically improve your odds.

Originally posted by sregener
More than likely, you're listing the analog channel numbers. I don't know of a single market with that many VHF digital signals.

Check out the list at http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp for real channel numbers.

The ten largest OTA markets (as defined by both the FCC and NAB) tend to have their network O&Os and affils (I'm talking the Big Four, including FOX).

Washington, DC is a case in point (market #8).

You have WRC-DT (NBC O&O), WTTG-DT (FOX O&O), WJLA-DT (Albritton Communications-owned ABC affil) and WUSA-DT (Gannett-owned CBS affil) with channel numbers 4.1, 5.1, 7.1/7.2 and 9.1/9.2, respectively. 4.1 and 8.1 are 1080i, 5.1 and 7.1 are 720p, and 7.2 and 9.2 are (of course) 480i.

4.1 (WRC-DT) is particularly beastly to pick up (I am less than 20 miles from all the above stations, but I am on the *wrong* side of the house, and the signal path is literally blocked by the house itself) with my ATI-contractor-supplied Silver Sensor clone (no signal from any station even gets to 50 percent, even with an indoor distribution amp midway through the signal path, with the antenna itself mounted between the glass and the screen of the basement window; my PC is on a desk in front of the window).

I suspect it is the location that has me hamstrung, not the antenna itself.

An outdoor antenna is out (I am currently the only person watching OTA for any reason; the rest of the house, including my own basement TV, has cable), but will the location continue to give me grief?

Originally posted by sregener
...And the UHF section of your antenna is little more than a joke.

I think I'll start there. How do I decide between the 4228 and 3021? They are both very affordable. I see that the 4228 offers 1.2db's of additional gain. Would I then lose some multi-directional pickup? The tower locations are at a 35 degree spread.

If that doesn't work, I'll mount the combo outside. It's not the thought of a visible antenna, it's the grounding. I would not feel comfortable guying and grounding the antenna myslef. I would want a professional do it, and I have no clue what that would cost.

You're right about WUXP's strength. I looked it up on 2150 yesterday. I'll settle for a consistent Pax and PBS right now, and watch the Simpsons in ghosty analog.

Washington, DC is a case in point (market #8).

All of the digitals in the Washington, D.C. area are UHF. None are VHF.
Your digital receiver simply remaps from the actual channel to display whatever the station wants you to see (in this case the original VHF channel number). The thinking is that people will continue to identify with the old channel. Go to http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/dc/tv_information.asp?m=was
for info on your area.

At 20 miles away, an outdoor 4221 from Channelmaster or an Antennasdirect DB4 would do wonders for you I'd bet. If you can't go outdoors, do a 4228 or DB8 in your attic. The DB4 might work in the attic.

Originally posted by cpcat
All of the digitals in the Washington, D.C. area are UHF. None are VHF.
Your digital receiver simply remaps from the actual channel to display whatever the station wants you to see (in this case the original VHF channel number). The thinking is that people will continue to identify with the old channel. Go to http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/dc/tv_information.asp?m=was
for info on your area.

At 20 miles away, an outdoor 4221 from Channelmaster or an Antennasdirect DB4 would do wonders for you I'd bet. If you can't go outdoors, do a 4228 or DB8 in your attic. The DB4 might work in the attic.

Channel numbers are like *brand names* when it comes to television, even more than call signage (our local CBS affil has had three owners since I've been alive, and changed call letters under each, yet they kept the same channel number). And even DC has nothing on *Baltimore*, where the three major stations have changed network affiliations at least twice each (and one changed three times!).

Even though *all* digital TV stations live in the lower to middle section of the UHF-TV broadcast spectrum (between 14 and 50) their channel remaps reflect the *brand name* of the old VHF channel assignments (the already-UHF stations that also broadcast HD are just as *brand-conscious*, so it isn't just a network thing).

There *is* one oddity I've noticed with one particular DTV station here: WRC-DT.. The *PSIP* (information bug) that indicates station ID actually sends "CH 1" as opposed to WRC-DT (or even WRC-HD).

While WRC-DT *is* the oldest of the nation's OTA HD stations (as well as the original technology demonstrator of the NAB), CH 1 is a known *no-no* according to all FCC rules regarding TV station IDs, and even worse, this is not just a commercial DT station, it's a *network O&O* on top of that.

Why hasn't anyone from the FCC called them on this goof?

I am quite sure that WRC-DT's resident engineer (who also functions as senior engineer for DT for the NBC Owned Stations Group) is not deliberately violating FCC regulations....

Originally posted by PGHammer

You have WRC-DT (NBC O&O), WTTG-DT (FOX O&O), WJLA-DT (Albritton Communications-owned ABC affil) and WUSA-DT (Gannett-owned CBS affil) with channel numbers 4.1, 5.1, 7.1/7.2 and 9.1/9.2, respectively. 4.1 and 8.1 are 1080i, 5.1 and 7.1 are 720p, and 7.2 and 9.2 are (of course) 480i.

I suspect it is the location that has me hamstrung, not the antenna itself.

An outdoor antenna is out (I am currently the only person watching OTA for any reason; the rest of the house, including my own basement TV, has cable), but will the location continue to give me grief?

All of those channel numbers you listed above are "virtual", not actual channels. WRC, for instance, is broadcasting digitally on channel 48, not 4. And the channel numbers have nothing to do with being O&O.

Is there any way to use a window higher up in your house? UHF signals are particularly weak at ground level. The higher you can get that antenna, even indoors, the better.

If you can't get the antenna outside, that, more than your location, is what is causing you problems.

Originally posted by Southern Soul
I think I'll start there. How do I decide between the 4228 and 3021? They are both very affordable. I see that the 4228 offers 1.2db's of additional gain. Would I then lose some multi-directional pickup? The tower locations are at a 35 degree spread.

If that doesn't work, I'll mount the combo outside. It's not the thought of a visible antenna, it's the grounding. I would not feel comfortable guying and grounding the antenna myslef. I would want a professional do it, and I have no clue what that would cost.

You're right about WUXP's strength. I looked it up on 2150 yesterday. I'll settle for a consistent Pax and PBS right now, and watch the Simpsons in ghosty analog.

The 3021 is a better choice to cover a 35 degree spread. It is less directional, but this also means it is more likely to pick up multipath. (The fact that WUXP is ghosty indicates that signal strength is not your reception problem so much as multipath.)

You shouldn't need to guy the 3021, unless you're attaching it to a brick chimney. I'm the anti-handiman and I guyed my antenna - it's not that hard. Three hooks in the roof (seal with silicone), 3 lengths of steel cable from Home Depot, a few other random parts to secure the cable to the rotor box and the hooks, and I was set.

Grounding isn't as hard as these other guys make it sound. Get a grounding block from Radio Shack and put it just outside where the coax goes into your house. Then buy a length of grounding wire from Radio Shack. Connect the outer shell of the coax at the antenna to the mast. Connect the grounding block to the house ground. Done.

Originally posted by sregener
The 3021 is a better choice to cover a 35 degree spread. It is less directional, but this also means it is more likely to pick up multipath. (The fact that WUXP is ghosty indicates that signal strength is not your reception problem so much as multipath.)

You shouldn't need to guy the 3021, unless you're attaching it to a brick chimney. I'm the anti-handiman and I guyed my antenna - it's not that hard. Three hooks in the roof (seal with silicone), 3 lengths of steel cable from Home Depot, a few other random parts to secure the cable to the rotor box and the hooks, and I was set.

Grounding isn't as hard as these other guys make it sound. Get a grounding block from Radio Shack and put it just outside where the coax goes into your house. Then buy a length of grounding wire from Radio Shack. Connect the outer shell of the coax at the antenna to the mast. Connect the grounding block to the house ground. Done.

Alternate #1 (for for mounting smaller antennas outdoors, especially mounts on the side of a house)

Take your RS grounding block and connect it directly to the antenna's coax-out (via a short length of RG-6) and cap off any unused connections (you can buy terminator caps at RadioShack also). Run the grounding wire from the block to the hose bib (if you have an automatic sprinkler system, run the wire down to the nearest copper piping).

The hose bib usually connects to the cold water piping, which is usually *one* of the connections to the house ground (if you have a newer two-story house, there may be other connections to ground). Connection to the sprinkler system piping is even better, as that is *buried piping* (and thus eliminates any possibility of backwash into the house ground because there is no connection), and thus naturally grounded.

Originally posted by PGHammer
Connection to the sprinkler system piping is even better, as that is *buried piping* (and thus eliminates any possibility of backwash into the house ground because there is no connection), and thus naturally grounded.

I'm not an electrician, but this sounds like the perfect way to create a ground loop. Not having all of your grounds connected to a common ground would also lead to potential electrical differences which could fry sensitive electronics equipment.

Just picked up an ATi HDTV Wonder. The card came with a cheap Silver Sensor clone. Hooked everything up with the antenna on my computer desk and was able to receive most Philly stations (about 13 miles away) depending on what the weather was like, the angle of the antenna, where my wife and dogs were sitting at the time. Anyway, I was completely hooked after watching my first MNF HD broadcast. Incredible, but I had to improve the sketchy reception. First I tried an amplified indoor antenna. That was actually worse than the one that had come with the HDTV Wonder. Then I decided to go to the roof. I picked up a ChannelMaster StealthTenna from the local Lowes and mounted it as close to the peak of the roof as I could. I hooked it up to my PC with 50 ft. of cheap RG6 cable and voila... every station is now coming in rock solid. I even pulled some smaller stations that I was not expecting.

I had planned to run audio and video cable from my PC to my Sony KV-34HS510 (about 10 ft. away) but now I'm leaning towards splitting the antenna feed and buying a HDTV receiver.

Anyways, I have a couple of questions...

1. Can someone suggest a low priced HDTV receiver? I don't need a lot of bells and whistles, just something that tunes well and will give me a decent picture.

2. I haven't completed the antenna installation yet. What is the proper way to ground my antenna? Do I just have to ground the coax or should I also run a ground wire from the mast of the antenna into the ground?
'
Thanks,
Frank.

Originally posted by fmattis
1. Can someone suggest a low priced HDTV receiver? I don't need a lot of bells and whistles, just something that tunes well and will give me a decent picture.

2. I haven't completed the antenna installation yet. What is the proper way to ground my antenna? Do I just have to ground the coax or should I also run a ground wire from the mast of the antenna into the ground?


1. Go to the HDTV Hardware forum. Lots of posts about different STBs. Read the reviews. Educate yourself. Pick the one that seems to offer you the best bang for the buck. Personally, I'd try to find a used Samsung SIRT-151 on eBay. Should run you about $100.

2. Both the mast and the coax need to be grounded. The active element on the antenna is electrically isolated from the rest of the antenna and the mast, and that is the only thing that gets grounded by grounding the coax. The easiest way to ground the mast is to attach a short wire from the mast to the outer shell of the coax connector.

Well, I am still struggling with the reception of WXMI at my location - near Kirk Park on Lakeshore Drive in West Olive.

I have been playing around with the direction of the antenna (with a rotor), and I find that I get the best analog reception with it pointed SSE. I get almost no digital signal (as measured with the signal strength meter on my Dish 811 receiver - I also have a tuner in my TV, but it has no signal strength meter). If I try to peak the digital signal according to the Dish Reciever, I get the strongest signal by pointing almost due EAST. Looking at the analog reception in this position it is very ghosty, with the color fading in and out. The digital picture breaks up frequently. I am just not sure what to do now. It is frustrating, as I can get the other stations (even WWMT) by orienting the antenna appropriately. WXMI is just a toughie for me.

I do have a lot of trees around me (vacant lot to my south, and the antenna is on the southwest side of the house - about 25 ft from the ground - 8 ft from the roof height). I suspect that I am having reflected signal problems - perhaps I might get better signal when the leaves drop...

Anyone have any suggestions?

Updated...

Does anyone out there know if it is possible to get a DB4 antenna from antennasdirect.com and mount it on the same mast as my other antenna, and combine the signal? I have a channel master preamp that I think I can still return (that has just one input) and pick up a preamp that has both VHF and UHF inputs. Or possible a combiner that feed into the current amp?

I just dont know how this would work since the current antenna has the yagi for UHF on the front. I don't know if there is a way to disconnect this part of the upper antenna...

Again, any ideas?

Thanks,
Jeff

Originally posted by spiff72

Does anyone out there know if it is possible to get a DB4 antenna from antennasdirect.com and mount it on the same mast as my other antenna, and combine the signal? I have a channel master preamp that I think I can still return (that has just one input) and pick up a preamp that has both VHF and UHF inputs. Or possible a combiner that feed into the current amp?


Yes. Use a Channel Master #0549 to connect two antennas together - it will filter the UHF frequencies off the VHF antenna and the VHF ones off the UHF antenna. Of course, you could save $10 and get a 7777 preamp with two inputs, which effectively does the same thing.

I think a bowtie is a great choice for a low channel number like 19.

Originally posted by sregener
Yes. Use a Channel Master #0549 to connect two antennas together - it will filter the UHF frequencies off the VHF antenna and the VHF ones off the UHF antenna. Of course, you could save $10 and get a 7777 preamp with two inputs, which effectively does the same thing.

I think a bowtie is a great choice for a low channel number like 19.

Is there a minimum distance that should be maintained between the VHF and bowtie antennas? I am afraid that I won't have room on the mast unless I can mount it on the lower part of the mast (below the rotor). Are these non-directional enough that I might have success pointing it at the midpoint of the angle between the towers (about a 90 degree angle separates them).

Thanks again,
Jeff

60 inches between is the general recc. but you might get away with less after experimenting. The safe bet is 60 inches. You'll definitely have to mount one below the rotor unless you have a heavy duty ham rotor or a thrust bearing. The lever arm will be too long for the CM 9521 rotor w/o the bearing.

90 degrees is pretty wide. I doubt it will work unless one of the stations is very strong and you can hedge towards the other one. If your vhf stations are in one spot maybe you could put the DB4 on the rotor and move the vhf below and leave it fixed.

Originally posted by cpcat
The lever arm will be too long for the CM 9252 rotor w/o the bearing.



Just curious, but what would the maximum size lever arm be for a 9521A?!


~Alan

I'm not sure if there's a recc. from CM. I've heard 18 inches from others on this forum. In practice I'd just keep it as short as possible. You certainly need a short one on say a 4228 versus a small yagi which could probably go longer.

I guess I messed up the model #, 9521 is it? I'll edit my post above.

Originally posted by cpcat
I'm not sure if there's a recc. from CM. I've heard 18 inches from others on this forum. In practice I'd just keep it as short as possible. You certainly need a short one on say a 4228 versus a small yagi which could probably go longer.

I guess I messed up the model #, 9521 is it? I'll edit my post above.

Actually, I messed it up as Model #9521 is actually a package deal containing the rotor and the remote control unit. I believe the rotor is actually #9523(???).

As far as what you said, I ordered a #9521(A), a 4228 and a 7777 preamp. They haven't shipped it out yet, and I couldn't put it up right now anyway as Francis is giving my area some STRONG winds and Ivan looks to be following in the same path as Francis. However, I might go ahead and run the cables later this week, and I would be interested in knowing how much cable I'm going to need.

~Alan

Originally posted by Southern Soul
I think I'll start there. How do I decide between the 4228 and 3021? They are both very affordable. I see that the 4228 offers 1.2db's of additional gain. Would I then lose some multi-directional pickup? The tower locations are at a 35 degree spread.

If that doesn't work, I'll mount the combo outside. It's not the thought of a visible antenna, it's the grounding. I would not feel comfortable guying and grounding the antenna myslef. I would want a professional do it, and I have no clue what that would cost.

You're right about WUXP's strength. I looked it up on 2150 yesterday. I'll settle for a consistent Pax and PBS right now, and watch the Simpsons in ghosty analog.

I would look at the CM 4221 instead of the 4228. The 4221 is less directional and will easily reach your locals. I have a 90 degree spread and can pick up all channels (about 20 miles away) without adjusting the rotor. I can also pick up a secondary market about 70 miles away.

Originally posted by CPanther95
I would look at the CM 4221 instead of the 4228. The 4221 is less directional and will easily reach your locals. I have a 90 degree spread and can pick up all channels (about 20 miles away) without adjusting the rotor. I can also pick up a secondary market about 70 miles away.
Since the 4228 is really just two 4221's wired together and mounted side by side, one could just start with a 4228 and use half the antenna as a 4221 if necessary. I have no trouble picking up full power NYC stations at 32 miles when aimed 120 degrees away towards Philadelphia at about 60 miles, for instance, using my 4228. The 4228 is more directional than the 4221, but there's still a considerable side lobe (and sufficient reception from the rear if no interference from the front on the same frequencies) to the pattern.

Originally posted by CPanther95
I would look at the CM 4221 instead of the 4228. The 4221 is less directional and will easily reach your locals. I have a 90 degree spread and can pick up all channels (about 20 miles away) without adjusting the rotor. I can also pick up a secondary market about 70 miles away.


Well, I actually already ordered all my equipment and some of it should be in tomorrow. One of my local stations recently went digital in a different direction than my other two and in case I were to ever lose my CBS and ABC E&W feeds on DirecTV, I would need a rotor if I wanted to even think about picking them up. With the exception of Francine's influence yesterday, we really don't have a whole lot of wind, and I only intend on putting the antenna up around 10 feet off the ground (the top of the antenna might actually reach 12 feet) and Channel Master says this antenna has a "thrust bearing" in it like cpcat mentioned, so hopefully I can make it work, I was just curious as to how much it could handle.

~Alan

Channel Master says this antenna has a "thrust bearing" in it like cpcat mentioned, so hopefully I can make it work, I was just curious as

The thrust bearing I'm referring to is a separate item that CM used to sell. They aren't manufactured anymore but they're still around if you look. A picture of one in use is at http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/NewTowerAntennas/index.html
He's using one with his Triax Band A stack. It is basically a guy ring with a bearing inside that allows for rotation.

I think you'll be O.K. with the 4228 on the rotor w/o the bearing as long as you keep the lever arm as short as possible. I used a 4228 on my 9521 rotor for several mos w/o a problem.

Originally posted by cpcat
The thrust bearing I'm referring to is a separate item that CM used to sell. They aren't manufactured anymore but they're still around if you look. A picture of one in use is at http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/NewTowerAntennas/index.html
He's using one with his Triax Band A stack. It is basically a guy ring with a bearing inside that allows for rotation.

I think you'll be O.K. with the 4228 on the rotor w/o the bearing as long as you keep the lever arm as short as possible. I used a 4228 on my 9521 rotor for several mos w/o a problem.

Ive been looking for a month or two for a bracket that would allow vertical tilt for my pole mounted Yagi. But all I have found is what I think is a roof base mount that allows for this adjustment. Is this thrust bearing the ticket? You said they are not manufactured anymore. How is anyone suppose to tilt their antenna without it if its pole mounted outside? Any idea where I can get such a bracket or bearing????

PS I know it could be done with the standard sat pole that allows for vertical tilt, but that would be a lot of extra weight and look silly attached to an existing pole. The pole also has a rotor. I found a bracket at sharper concepts online but I would end up with 3 poles, the pole the rotor is mounted on, a pole leaving the rotor for the bracket to attach too, then another pole for the bracket to antenna connection.

Originally posted by cpcat
I think you'll be O.K. with the 4228 on the rotor w/o the bearing as long as you keep the lever arm as short as possible. I used a 4228 on my 9521 rotor for several mos w/o a problem.

I looked up what you said, and I might be able to rig up something similar to the TB-105 Support Bearing as pictured on this (http://www.starkelectronic.com/rotor.htm#tb105) page, but without any guy wires attached. Would that give me quite a bit of added support?!


~Alan

http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm



Ive been looking for a month or two for a bracket that would allow vertical tilt for my pole mounted Yagi

Try the link above. He sells tilting brackets as well as a remote tilter if you want to go really fancy.

I looked up what you said, and I might be able to rig up something similar to the TB-105 Support Bearing as pictured on this page, but without any guy wires attached. Would that give me quite a bit of added support?!

Wow, I've not seen that before. That would certainly work. That would even allow a vertical stack above the rotor. As it says, you'll have to "break off" the tab on the rotor which may not be easy but it should work. Hmmm...

Hey all,

I was thinking about getting a DB4 and adding it to my current VHF antenna mast, but I just stumbled across a CM 4221A (or CM3021) for about 1/3 the price. Are the reception qualities of these basically the same? Or is one better than the other? I was going to order a new amp (CM7777) and distribution amp (for my crappy cable) from solid signal, and I was thinking I would be better off just getting the CM antenna from them at the same time...

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Jeff

I've not heard of anyone who's done a direct comparison but most of what I've heard here would indicate the DB4 is better but only by a small margin.
Whether that's worth it or not will have to be up to you. Both are similar designs (4-bay bowties) and are rated for similar distances. You could email antennasdirect and ask for gain figures to compare (I'm pretty sure the 4221/3021 figures are available through a link at Starkelectronics.com)
Gain figures are subject to some exaggeration though, so even that won't be a guarantee.

Originally posted by spiff72
I was thinking about getting a DB4 and adding it to my current VHF antenna mast, but I just stumbled across a CM 4221A (or CM3021) for about 1/3 the price. Are the reception qualities of these basically the same? Or is one better than the other? I was going to order a new amp (CM7777) and distribution amp (for my crappy cable) from solid signal, and I was thinking I would be better off just getting the CM antenna from them at the same time...


I guess the answer is: it depends. Do you want the absolute best reception given a certain sized antenna? Get the DB4. Want to get pretty good reception given a certain sized antenna? Get the 3021. The difference is probably no more than 3db, which won't make or break you in a strong signal environment. If you're pushing the limits of reception, though, the DB4 should win handily.

Does anyone have any experience with Omnis? I was looking at the CM 3000. I live only 3.8 miles from the most distant transmitter according to antennaweb. We only have two digital stations here in the great white north (it is snowing today) but more will be on line soon.

I was wanting to get the thing up before winter really sets in and it becomes difficult to drive grounding stakes.

My theater is downstairs. I had analog problems in the past using set top antennas but have pretty much a 360 degree "look" about 10' above my house.

Also, the transmitters are at all points of the compass.

Thanks,

Kevin

Quote:
"Does anyone have any experience with Omnis? I was looking at the CM 3000. I live only 3.8 miles from the most distant transmitter according to antennaweb. We only have two digital stations here in the great white north (it is snowing today) but more will be on line soon."




Omnis just don't work very well in general. You'd be much better off with a relatively small semi-directional like the Antennasdirect DB4 (better) or CM 4221 (cheaper) on a rotor.

I have a fancy-shmancy roof antenna that can pull in all my Detroit locals except the ABC affiliate. (I'm running it through my Dish 811, which gets the dreaded "49% error" on ABC.) If I connect plain-old rabbit ears instead of the roof antenna, I can get ABC. Does this mean that I'd be able to pull in ABC through the roof antenna if I had an attenuator?

Today I connected my DirecTv receiver to a rooftop antenna that has been there for many years. I have no idea what kind it is but it looks pretty old and is missing a couple of crossbars. It was in use with 1 set upstairs from me for analog reception. It was receiving all OTA stations in the NYC area clearly. I found a connection between 2 coaxial cables running into the house. I put a 2 to 1 splitter and ran a coax into my apartment and to my receiver (Zenith HD SAT520). I now receive Digital HD broadcast of all NYC local stations except CBS (which DirecTv broadcasts) and PBS (which I am not sure is even available yet). I just wanted to share this with everyone in case there is anyone out there that also has an old antenna on the roof. It just might be possible that this will suffice for you to bring in the HD signal you need.

Alan/Ken H/Cpanther, whichever one+ of you went to the trouble to rename all of the local threads with the simplified city name...

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

It is so much better this way. I won't missing seeing the adjectives "official", "quasi", "not so official", etc. at all. This area is much better with the simplified thread names. Way to go!!!

Originally posted by CPanther95
I would look at the CM 4221 instead of the 4228. The 4221 is less directional and will easily reach your locals. I have a 90 degree spread and can pick up all channels (about 20 miles away) without adjusting the rotor. I can also pick up a secondary market about 70 miles away.

Here's my situation in Nashville's Bellevue community. I've edited the list to remove some stations outside of Nashville I don't care about. I told Antennaweb to consider my surrounding hills, trees (bad) and my multistory house (good).

* red - vhf WSMV-DT 4.1 NBC Nashville TN 32° 6.2 10
* red - uhf WNPT-DT 46.1 PBS NASHVILLE TN Testing 104° 5.2 46
* red - uhf WKRN-DT 2.1 ABC Nashville TN 104° 5.2 27
* violet - uhf WNPX-DT 28.1 PAX Cookeville TN 29° 15.5 36

Note that Antennaweb.org is not listing DTV stations for my address for CBS, FOX, WB and UPN. They used to but not since the Jan 1st web site revamp. I think they are trying to tell me that my house is located in the frequency dead zone of Bellevue (and I would agree!). So, I've extrapolated the missing DTV stations in the following list:

* violet - uhf WZTV-DT 17.1 FOX NASHVILLE TN 32° 6.2 15
* violet - uhf WUXP-DT 30.1 UPN NASHVILLE TN 29° 15.6 21
* violet - uhf WTVF-DT 5.1 CBS NASHVILLE TN 30° 16.0 56
* violet - uhf WNAB-DT 58.1 WB NASHVILLE TN 29° 15.5 23

It looks like the CM4221 may be more appropiate for me instead of the 4228 by CPanther95's logic. I have a 75 degree spread, with a maximum distance of about 16 miles from the furthermost towers in Nashville that I need (CBS). ABC and PBS are easy (a Zenith Silver Sensor can lock the ABC signal) since they are on my side of town and I can see their tower from the house, but they are on that 75 degree axis away from the other stations. All other stations I've looking for (NBC, CBS, FOX, WB, UPN) and on a narrow 4 degree wide vector. WB and UPN are broadcasting by "hamster" power, so I don't really expect to get them right now under any circumstances. FOX is on low power, but hopefully not for too much longer.

I'm also surrounded by some short hills in the very direction I need for the long signals (but not ABC/PBS) so I'm not sure an attic solution is going to work, although I may try it first. I'm pretty sure an amp will be needed.

Any observations or suggestions from the experts out there? Am I on the right track with my thinking? And finally, WSMV-DT (NBC) is a rare VHF HD station. Will the 4221 alone be enough at channel 10, or will I need something additional? And finally, who still installs antennas in the Nashville area?

Originally posted by HobeSoundDarryl
Alan/Ken H/Cpanther, whichever one+ of you went to the trouble to rename all of the local threads with the simplified city name...

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

It is so much better this way. I won't missing seeing the adjectives "official", "quasi", "not so official", etc. at all. This area is much better with the simplified thread names. Way to go!!!

Hear hear.

Didn't even notice until I read this post.

Excellent idea, cleaning up those names!!!

Originally posted by Sevenfeet
Here's my situation in Nashville's Bellevue community...

I'd give the 4221 a try. I'd pass on the preamplifier. You're probably too close for it to help. Of course, you could order one and return it if it doesn't work for you.

Most UHF antennas have some VHF performance, though it's usually to the *left* of the aiming area by about 30-45 degrees. Keep that in mind.

Personally, I'd get the 4228 and a rotor, since that gives you the greatest chance of success.

I'd also avoid the attic unless you absolutely must.

On a general note, is higher always better for antenna mounting? Im talking about UHF signals mainly. Can an antenna just stop functioning like it used to? I know that sounds odd but i am very recently unable to tune in channels I was able to before. I have checked every other possible connection problem and aiming problems. I have just ordered a 4221 so many this wont be an issue when that is installed. Right now I have a regular vhf/uhf/fm antenna. I dont recall which model channel master it is though. Also, what would be considered a safe height without using guy wires??

An antenna is basically just a uniquely-shaped hunk of metal and plastic. Any antenna that just "stops functioning" indicates a hardware failure, either with the antenna itself, or the feedline. Most of the time if the antenna is under 10 years old, it's the feedline. If the antenna is old enough, the element connections will literally corrode and become insulators, which calls for an antenna replacement.

First, visually inspect the antenna for anything being broken. If the antenna has connecting rods that link the signal from the elements to the output, make sure they're tightly connected. An ohmmeter would be a great tester, but usually a visual check will suffice. If the antenna has a "connector box" make sure it's dry inside and doesn't exhibit signs of lightning damage.

If you see nothing wrong from an integrity perspective, take a portable or handheld receiver (with an antenna input) up on the roof, connect it directly to the antenna, and check the analog signals. If they're good, then your cable and/or connectors are suspect.

As for your height question, you're right on... Higher is usually better for UHF. However, UHF tends to have "hotspots" too, even well about a roof line. Here is where probing around with the antenna and a portable TV will help. Some professional antenna installers perform this step.

I am in Woodstock, GA 30188.
I am 21-25 miles from all of the Atlanta towers, which are all in the same direction.

I'm looking for an antenna to mount in the attic. Any fellow Woodstockians on here getting OTA? FWIW, I am in the monstrous new subdivision known as the Woodlands.

I am planning on adding a second HDTV to my setup. I currently have a Channel Master 3021 antenna in m attic. The RG-6 coming out of it goes into the "antenna" input of a diplexer. The "satellite" input to the diplexer comes from one of the outputs of my 5x8 cascading multi-switch. The output of the diplexer goes into an RG-6 cable running down to my Sony HD STB, where I have another diplexer to split out the satellite/antenna to connect to the STB.

Now, I would like to add another HD TV to the setup. From what I understand, there are at least two ways to do this:

1. Remove the diplexer near the multi-switch and run the cable from the antenna directly into the antenna input of the multiswitch. Connect the cable going down to my first STB directly to one of the outputs of the multi-switch. Then, the antenna signal will be available to all the STBs connected to the multi-switch. This is certainly the easiest thing to do, but I am concerned about signal degradation from splitting the antenna signal over eight different outputs.

2. Connect the cable from the antenna to a splitter. Connect one of the outputs of the splitter to the existing diplexer. Connect the other output of the splitter to another diplexer and copy the way I have the first diplexer connected... Have another diplexer at the second STB to split back out the sat/ota signals going into the STB. The disadvantage it is a little more work, and it might not work (is this true?). The advantage, if it works, is the ota signal will only be split into two, not into up to eight.

Thoughts?

Originally posted by rickypicky
I am planning on adding a second HDTV to my setup. I currently have a Channel Master 3021 antenna in m attic. The RG-6 coming out of it goes into the "antenna" input of a diplexer. The "satellite" input to the diplexer comes from one of the outputs of my 5x8 cascading multi-switch. The output of my diplexer goes into an RG-6 cable runing down to my Sony HD STB, where I have another diplexer to split out the satellite/antenna to connect to the STB.

Now, I would like to add another HD TV to the setup. From what I understand, there are at least two ways to do this:

1. Remove the diplexer near the multi-switch and run the cable from the antenna directly into the antenna input of the multiswitch. Connect the cable going down to my first STB directly to one of the outputs of the multi-swith. Then, the antenna signal will be available to all the STBs connected to the multi-switch. This is certainly the easiest thing to do, but I am concerned about signal degradation from splitting the antenna signal over eight different outputs.

2. Connect the cable from the antenna to a splitter. Connect one of the outputs of the splitter to the existing diplexer. Connect the other output of the splitter to another diplexer and copy the way I have the first diplexer connected... Have another diplexer at the second STB to split back out the sat/ota signals going into the STB. The disadvantage it is a little more work, and it might not work (is this true?). The advantage, if it works, is the ota signal will only be split into two, not into up to eight.

Thoughts?

I did #2 works fine.

If this has been answered, I wouldn't mind a link to the previous post :)

My situation, I'm in the west loop in Chicago, about 1.1 miles from the broadcast towers. However, i'm in a multiunit building (no roof rights, etc) facing south, but the towers are North East from me.

I originally purchased a terk tv55 from circuit city, before returning it for a zenith silver sensor. I can partially get a signal indoors, but its not consistent enough to maintain a good picture (it waivers from 75 to 0, constantly).

I'm also the south most unit in a complex of buildings, so if I wanted to have and indoor antenna and point it at the towers, I'm technically pointing it through about 3 buildings.

I have a DTV dish, and a samsung HD receiver.

Is an indoor antenna a viable option for me? if so, which? if not, whats a good outdoor antenna? or am I just out of luck?

thanks.

I guess I am lucky. I have two antennas one in the attic an Channel Master, the other inside a Trek HDTVi. I get All the HDTV channels in OKC except one. As a matter of fact the indoor antenna is actually better.

Luckly most of the towers are close together.

I have a UHF antenna mounted on my chimney with a Channel Master preamp. runs into samsung box in family room. great OTA reception. purchased HDTV and samsung box for another room and ran RG6 cable up to antenna and put a splitter after the preamp. now no signal for either box. had about 70 % signal strength on original box. disconected splitter and signal back to normal on original box. am I just not receiving a strong enough signal to split or is there a better splitter and or another solution ?

sounds like the splitter is just a bad seed or more likely I would guess you killed power to the preamp.

does the amp get power from the RG6 that you split? If so the splitter probably isnt passing through the voltage the preamp needs to run. You need to put the power injector on the pre-amp side of the splitter or find a splitter that passes the current (not sure if they have one- someone with more knowledge feel free to jump in...)

if the preamp gets its power another way then something sure is wrong with the splitter, you may see some slight drop but it shouldn't make %70 go to nothing.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D1237
You want a splitter that has DC pass-through, like this one (this is a VHF/UHF splitter, I just posted it to show the DC pass markings). Your splitter might already have it, and you might just have to switch the coax connections from the 2 TVs.

thanks for the info. I looked at the picture of the Radio Shack splitter and realized that instead of saying DC pass, the one I have says power pass ( has to be same thing) I did not know what this meant (duh) when I installed and I bet that when I switch the cables so the one from the pre-amp power supply goes into the side marked power pass that it will work. thanks for the info and I will let you know the results

switched splitter around and good signal now in both locations. thanks for the help

Jerrold SharpShooter ???

My Son and I went to the Cleveland Hamfest (flea market for radio junk) at
the Berea Fairgrounds Sunday morning. I was looking for some air dielectric cable like 9913. No joy on the 9913 but did bump into a guy that had some
used but clean Jerrold SharpShooter UHF Yagi's. These things are 80" booms
with 14 directors, the Driven Element plus a 7 element corner reflector.

It has an unussual configuration for the feed point, 2 sets of screws for the Balun/Feedline. Cant find any docs on the web, looks like Jerrold is OOB.
Do all BalUns go from 75ohm to 300 ohm? Is it a safe assumption that the
75 ohm feedpoint is the one right on the Driven Element? The second set of screws connect to what looks to me like Delta match type thing about 4"
back from the D.E. I'm thinking that would be the 300 ohm Balanced tap.

Until I find some 9913 I plan on using RG8/U Foam from the Ant. to the set
and accept the small loss from the mis-match

Thanks

Dan

Originally posted by intermod
Jerrold SharpShooter ???

My Son and I went to the Cleveland Hamfest (flea market for radio junk) at
the Berea Fairgrounds Sunday morning. I was looking for some air dielectric cable like 9913. No joy on the 9913 but did bump into a guy that had some
used but clean Jerrold SharpShooter UHF Yagi's. These things are 80" booms
with 14 directors, the Driven Element plus a 7 element corner reflector.

It has an unussual configuration for the feed point, 2 sets of screws for the Balun/Feedline. Cant find any docs on the web, looks like Jerrold is OOB.
Do all BalUns go from 75ohm to 300 ohm? Is it a safe assumption that the
75 ohm feedpoint is the one right on the Driven Element? The second set of screws connect to what looks to me like Delta match type thing about 4"
back from the D.E. I'm thinking that would be the 300 ohm Balanced tap.

Until I find some 9913 I plan on using RG8/U Foam from the Ant. to the set
and accept the small loss from the mis-match

Thanks

Dan
http://www.wade-antenna.com/UHFantennas.htm
I believe the Jerrold antennas are made by Delhi, so you'd have more luck with searching for Delhi. They also happen to make my favorite antenna:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/del937.htm
Mmm... that's some good gain.

I believe your antenna is the CYD, unsure of the channel range. The gain looks fairly good for the entire line, but what channels you'll get would depend on which part of the UHF band it's cut for (I'd hope that it'd be the channel 14-70 model for full UHF band reception, but you never know).

Well, the one on the driven element is the 300ohm feedpoint. I'm going to assume that the other one is the built-in VHF coupler mentioned on the Wade Antenna webpage. A nice Channel Master outdoor balun (300 ohm to 75 ohm) and some RG-6 or RG-11 (both very nice 75 ohm cables) and you should be all set for NTSC/ATSC reception. :) I don't know what in particular you have in mind for the antenna, though.

thought my splitter problem was solved but apparently signal strength on TV without preamp is marginal and fluctuates. can not pick up ch 4 ( NBC-Denver) on the tv without pre-amp . On the set with preamp the signal strength on this channel is 79 %.
wonder if 2 preamps can be used ? split signal right at antenna and run into 2 preamps ( Antenna post mounted) and run the coax from the two locations up to the preamps . both locations would then have their own pre-amp and a power supply by the tv.

sure will be great when new DTV antennas are up and running on Lookout Mtn outside of Denver. currently receiving signal from antennas on tall building in downtown Denver. can not receive ch 7 ( ABC) because they broadcast from a 7 story building and their signal does not make it over the ridge between Denver and my area to the Northwest (Louisville,Superior). have heard there were various zoning and building permit issues ? may be some time this Millenium ??

Yes ! That looks like it.
Thankyou. Well I live just south of Cleveland with all the stations within
a mile or two, but from 030 to 330 degrees. I can get all of them now
except WEWS 5.1 on ch. 15. There is a large building at the end of my steet
and it looks like the reflection off that is stronger than the station.
Any way its something to play with.

Thanks again

Dan

Originally posted by Rack
http://www.wade-antenna.com/UHFantennas.htm
I believe the Jerrold antennas are made by Delhi, so you'd have more luck with searching for Delhi. They also happen to make my favorite antenna:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/del937.htm
Mmm... that's some good gain.

I believe your antenna is the CYD, unsure of the channel range. The gain looks fairly good for the entire line, but what channels you'll get would depend on which part of the UHF band it's cut for (I'd hope that it'd be the channel 14-70 model for full UHF band reception, but you never know).

Well, the one on the driven element is the 300ohm feedpoint. I'm going to assume that the other one is the built-in VHF coupler mentioned on the Wade Antenna webpage. A nice Channel Master outdoor balun (300 ohm to 75 ohm) and some RG-6 or RG-11 (both very nice 75 ohm cables) and you should be all set for NTSC/ATSC reception. :) I don't know what in particular you have in mind for the antenna, though.

After two to three weeks of waiting (don't ask) I finally received my CM4228 today, but when I got it the edges were a little... well, kind of bent in. Is this what the CM4228 looks like, or was it the shipping that caused this?!


~Alan

Originally posted by NOGREER
thought my splitter problem was solved but apparently signal strength on TV without preamp is marginal and fluctuates. can not pick up ch 4 ( NBC-Denver) on the tv without pre-amp . On the set with preamp the signal strength on this channel is 79 %. wonder if 2 preamps can be used ? split signal right at antenna and run into 2 preamps ( Antenna post mounted) and run the coax from the two locations up to the preamps . both locations would then have their own pre-amp and a power supply by the tv.


Better would be to move the indoor unit to just before the splitter and see if that works. Then you have a single, direct line from the outdoor unit to the indoor unit.

Mostly likely, there'll be enough gain that the signal loss from the cable lengths after the splitter will be a non-issue.

Originally posted by Alan Gordon
After two to three weeks of waiting (don't ask) I finally received my CM4228 today, but when I got it the edges were a little... well, kind of bent in. Is this what the CM4228 looks like, or was it the shipping that caused this?!


~Alan
http://www.channelmaster.com/images/4228.jpg
Looks bent in to me!

Originally posted by Rack
http://www.channelmaster.com/images/4228.jpg
Looks bent in to me!

Idiot me was thinking they weren't bent in on that picture. Oh well, if I had a dollar for everytime I asked a stupid question...

I might get a chance at putting the antenna up tomorrow if the weather permits now that Jeanne is gone.

~Alan<~~~~~~~~Who is tired of hurricanes...

Is there any good way of measuring signal strength if your STB doesn't support it? I have an LG LST-3100A, and to the best of my knowledge it won't actually show me how strong the incoming signal is.

In general most of the stations are good, but if I watch for long enough (say 10-15 minutes), I get a dropout that can't be explained. This generally happens more on cloudy/rainy days than on clear days.

I live between 2.7 - 12 miles from my local broadcasting towers and I'm using a Silver Sensor (though I have an RS-1880 around that I tested and forgot to return until it was too late). There really isn't anything blocking me and the antennas, w/ the exception of maybe a house or two down the block (their house is the same height as mine). Are there any suggestions on how to keep me dropout-free?

I recently installed the MyHD 120 HDTV card and daughterboard in my main computer. I've had two rooftop antennas for years, although one's lousy, so I'm looking to upgrade it. The other's pretty OK, I think, a Winegard Chromstar II directional ("anti-ghosting"). The MyHD card, thankfully, has two antenna inputs. I will have both antenna cables split once to send signals to an analog TV in another room.

I have three questions:

1. What kind of splitters should I be using?

2. What do I need in a balun?

3. What kind of cable do I want to buy?

Some more details:

The Winegard Chromstar II seems to work OK like it is. I'm removing the other antenna and am going to try to replace it with an antenna I found a couple weeks ago. I noticed this thing while skating to my workout, it was there on the way home and I snagged it. It looks almost exactly like the 3016 (http://www.channelmaster.com/images/3016.jpg) on this page (http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/AdvantageAnts.htm) at the Channel Master website. Mine's a bit longer than the 3016, so I guess it's an older model (the 3016 is 66" and mine's 70"). There was a 9 foot mast too, and I took it home as well. I had no idea why they were throwing it out, but when I put my multimeter to it, I think I found out why. There was no conductivity between a lot of the elements where I figure there should be. I'm not sure it's necessary, but I assume that an antenna to function correctly has to have continuity except where specifically prevented (i.e. by insulators). I fixed those continuity problems, which included non-continuity from the balun to the connections!

Well, I figured I was about ready to mount this thing, but I tested continuity between two mutually insulated parts of the antenna and found continuity! That would be a problem, it seems. It turns out that the balun itself was responsible for that.

So, question is: Is a balun supposed to have continuity between the leads? I have 4-5 baluns lieing around and I checked them all, and every one but one also tested as having continuity between the leads! That would seem to be wrong, but 4/5 do, so I guess maybe it's not wrong.

Well, should I get another balun? What do I need in a balun? I'm going to be using the antenna for HDTV, DTV and analog TV, and my priority is in that order.

So, again:

1. What kind of splitters should I be using? I see all kinds of splitters for sale and it's confusing. For instance, at Home Depot they had a couple:

5 MHz - 2.3 GHz (Ideal, the Mnfg.) $7 "Satellite & Digital"

40-2151 MHz Diplexer (RCA), $10

If I go to Radio Shack, what should I look for?

2. What do I need in a balun?

Again, what would I look for at Radio Shack, or can I just use the balun that was already on the Channel Master or maybe one of my others? I have 300-75 ohm, 75-75 ohm. Someone said I should get a UHF balun. He said some baluns have as much as 6 db signal loss and that I should get a good one. Would that also work for VHF stations? Now, I assume that the balun already on this antenna will work for UHF and VHF, and I gather from the design of this thing that it IS designed for both UHF and VHF. Of course, I don't know if it's working up to spec.

3. What kind of cable do I want to buy? I want to replace the old RG59 that's on the antenna I'm replacing as well as its splitter. I figure RG6, but do I want quad shield or not? Also, is copper clad steel core OK or should I hold out for solid copper core? The solid copper is harder to find, at least they don't have it at my local Home Depots.

Thanks!

• Channel Master balun from warrenelectronics.com (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/splitters.htm) if you can't find them locally.
• RG6 quad shield coax
• Inexpensive "Hybrid Splitter/Combiner" from Rat Shack (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D1141). You can also get Channel Master splitter/combiners at the above link for Warren elect.

Originally posted by arxaw
• Channel Master balun from warrenelectronics.com (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/splitters.htm) if you can't find them locally.
• RG6 quad shield coax
• Inexpensive "Hybrid Splitter/Combiner" from Rat Shack (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D1141). You can also get Channel Master splitter/combiners at the above link for Warren elect. I have a few inexpensive splitters. If the results are the same I'll just use one of those.

RG6 quad shield. Does it matter if it's solid copper core or will copper clad steel be just as good for all intents and purposes?

I already have a balun that was on that antenna and I think I'll try it first. It was probably supplied by Channel Master. I found out (local indy electronics store) that baluns are expected to have continuity across the leads because that's an induction coil. The one balun I have that doesn't have continuity is probably bad.

Thanks!

Always replace a balun that's suspect or has been outside for a few years. They're cheap. Either type of RG6 should work just fine.

Here's my situation:

WKBD-DT 50.1 UPN DETROIT MI 275° 9.3 14
WDWB-DT 21.1 WB DETROIT MI 225° 3.5 21
WXYZ-DT 41.1 ABC DETROIT MI 266° 6.2 41
WTVS-DT 56.1 PBS DETROIT MI 225° 3.5 43
WWJ-DT62.1 CBS DETROIT MI 225° 3.5 44
WDIV-DT 4.1 NBC DETROIT MI 272° 3.9 45
WJBK-DT 2.1 FOX DETROIT MI 253° 4.7 58

For nearly two years, I was able to receive all these with relative consistency on my DirecTV HD receiver with a CM 40" boom yagi UHF antenna on 5' mast off the chimney, aimed at around 265°. I'm in a single-story house and there's a 1-1/2 story bungalow in that direction.

In spring of this year, the UPN station at channel 14 began intermittently dropping out, and it seemed to be affected by vehicle traffic on the road immediately to the north. By summer, it was pretty much gone all of the time.

A few weeks ago, I finally made it to the hardware and bought another 5' mast, figuring if I get that yagi above the next-door house, I could get a clearer shot at 275°. When I put it up, by aiming more toward 270°, I could pull in UPN, but FOX on channel 58 started getting interrupted by cars driving by. A little more fine tuning, and it seemed I found just the right aim.

This worked for a week or so, then last weekend, I wake up to a rainy day, and both 14 and 58 are having reception problems when cars drive by. Once the rain dried up, I swapped out the yagi for a 4221, with no improvement. The best I can seem to do is either all except UPN, or all except FOX without interruption, regardless which of these antennas I use.

So, my questions: Are these symptoms of multipath? What's the next plan of attack? It irritates me to think I such an elaborate setup is necessary in this part of the city, but I'm considering putting both these beasts up on that mast and hooking them up with a channel 14 Jointenna. Is there something else I should try before this?

Originally posted by tbb1226
WKBD-DT 50.1 UPN DETROIT MI 275° 9.3 14
WJBK-DT 2.1 FOX DETROIT MI 253° 4.7 58

The best I can seem to do is either all except UPN, or all except FOX without interruption, regardless which of these antennas I use.

So, my questions: Are these symptoms of multipath? What's the next plan of attack?

You have all the symptoms of multipath. Your plan of attack depends on a lot of things.

The higher the channel number, the more directional your antenna becomes, meaning that aiming away from the Fox tower will likely cause you reception problems on that channel.

You don't say what kind of receiver you're using. Some handle multipath better than others.

If you haven't tried it yet, get a variable attenuator from Radio Shack and see if you can dial the signal strength down a little. It might be able to block the multipath.

You also might want to try tilting your yagis up, even as much as 20-30 degrees. This should reduce their sensitivity to reflections from the ground. (Most people have to do this in reverse because of airplane traffic.)

Fox won't be able to stay on channel 58 after the analog shutoff, as that frequency is out of the DTV core of 2-51.

A rotor would doubtless solve your problems, since you wouldn't have to pick one direction to aim at, but you're probably looking for a fix-it-and-forget-it solution.

Thanks for your suggestions.

I started with a Mits DirecTV receiver, and just recently switched to the HR10-250. Both receivers have the same issues.

I have tried an attenuator - its only effect is to reduce reception on channels I'm getting fine without it. Average signal strength on the HR10-250 when no cars are driving by is in the 70s

I do need a 'fix-and-forget' solution, especially now with the TiVo.

I think I'll try tilting the yagi, though I'm not quite sure how to accomplish that.

Thanks again.

tbb1226

I'm getting WKBD-DT at 66 on my F38310, must be a nice duct along
the lake shore. Its been rock solid all morning. Pointing 310 degrees from
Cleveland, Oh. We have a local NBC station on ch 2 here as well, I have noticed that when the band is up I have trouble with digital stations not locking at all.
at least with analog stuff you can tell whats going on.

Dan

Originally posted by tbb1226
I think I'll try tilting the yagi, though I'm not quite sure how to accomplish that.
If you're handy you could probably fashion a bracket similar to what's shown here: http://www.atechfabrication.com/products/antenna_mounting_brackets.htm

Or you could spring for what they're charging for one that's pre-made.

I know I've seen such things elsewhere but can't find them now. I've also seen remote controlled ones allowing you to tilt on demand.

I purchased my HDTV 3 months ago. I have the 811 Dish receiver. AT first I hooked up my attic antenna with an amp. to get OTA signals. It worked for a short time, then I lost most of the signals. I called KGAN and the engineer told me to try rabbit ears. I had a set that was 20 yrs. old, so I put them in the attic and hooked then up to my Amp. It has worked very well. I live about 20 miles from the Walker towers and probably 60 miles from the Des Moines towers. I get KCRG and KGAN fine and KWWL some of the time. I get 13 and 17 out of DEs Moines real well. I am lucky getting 17 because they do NFL in HD. I know most of this does not make sense, but I thought I would share this info. in case it would help someone.

Live in Delaware. Philly stations were a problem for me as a large hill is in my line of sight. So I pointed south the Baltimore.

RS Yagi (uhf/vhf/stereo) ... only using half of the antenna
CM 7777 preamp
RCA DTC-100

I get every channel from Baltimore with this setup. CBS,NBC,ABC,FOX,WB,PBS (mpt-annapolis). I even occasionally pickup DC stations but the air has to be right.

I tried a CM 4228 UHF but it didn't seem to work as well as the Yagi so I took it down. It's for sale if anyone local want's to buy it.

i have signals in the mid 70's to low 80's. if i add a preamp can i use a diplexer to combine the signal and the power for the preamp??? i only have one rg-6 wire running up to the outside antenna and don't want to run another one if at all possible. also will a preamp help my signals much???

Originally posted by skirt
i have signals in the mid 70's to low 80's.

Unless you're seeing macroblocking or have audio dropouts, your reception won't get any better with higher numbers.

i have no drops - what is macroblocking???? i do have pixilazation at times.

Originally posted by skirt
i have no drops - what is macroblocking???? i do have pixilazation at times.

Sounds like macroblocking.

Preamps help in areas with weak signals. They do harm in areas with strong signals. If you have a lot of snow on analog UHF stations, then a preamplifier might help.

The best thing you could do to improve reception is to run a dedicated line for the antenna. Diplexers cause signal loss and other problems that can be hard to trace.

As far as I know, no diplexer passes DC current anyway, so you couldn't use a preamp as long as you have the diplexer in the mix.

I was looking at the Terk TV-36 that Crutchfield offers. Has anyone used this antenna for their OTA HD channels? I live about 15 miles from the broadcasting site and can mount it on my roof. Are there any others that are basic and easy that I can hook up through my Dish and will work just as well or better? Thanks.

Originally posted by Mac03
I was looking at the Terk TV-36 that Crutchfield offers. Has anyone used this antenna for their OTA HD channels? I live about 15 miles from the broadcasting site and can mount it on my roof. Are there any others that are basic and easy that I can hook up through my Dish and will work just as well or better? Thanks.

I have ATI's Zenith SilverSensor clone and I'm about the same distance away (actually a little further; about twenty miles) from the primary group of DC towers. The only DC HD locals I am *not* picking up are either lightbulb-powered (WDCA-DT), or not on the air yet (WHUT-DT). No preamp (I actually *removed* the indoor distribution amp I had been using, as it caused signal overload) and wired direct. WRC-DT is bell-clear, WJLA-DT is the best it's ever been, and WETA-DT is even *less* problematic than it used to be (even though the signal itself is marginally *weaker* because the distro amp is no longer in the picture).

Even WBDC-D1 (DC's WB-Digital) is in the house.

UNfortunately, so is the dreaded PAXMonster (all six SD channels of WPXW-DT43) and *both* halves of MHz Networks' digital mishmash (30-x and 57-1). In addition, I have one of the *worst* signal pictures (I'm in the basement of my house, and the window the antenna is facing faces the wrong way, e.g., the rear of the house; as the towers themselves are behind me).

When WETA gets a permanent placement, WDCA-DT moves up from lightbulb power, and WHUT-DT finds a home, I'll be in ideal shape.

Not shabby at all for a bargain basement (pun not intended) basement HDPC.

Hi all - First visit to thread and hopeful I can get some help.

I live in downtown DC (Logan Circle actually), about 3 miles from the transmitters in Tenleytown. I can pick up WJLA, WUSA, WTTG, and WBDC with my SilverSensor clone and HDTV wonder card. But I can't get any of the PBS stations, which I would really like to pull in.

Now, since I'm so close to the transmitters, I figure that my setup, not my location is the trouble. I'm on the 3rd floor of a 5-story condo building. I face west (toward Tenleytown), but since I'm in the middle of town I'm surrounded by other buildings. I don't think any of them directly block my LOS, but I'm not positive.

I need suggestions for an antenna that will work in my situation. I have a balcony so can mount a small outdoor job out there. But no room for a monster.

Any suggestions? Thanks much.

BV

Originally posted by viggster
I need suggestions for an antenna that will work in my situation. I have a balcony so can mount a small outdoor job out there. But no room for a monster.


For both you and the poster asking about the Terk TV-36, my advice is the same: get a Winegard SquareShooter. They're expensive for an antenna, but they offer superior performance in a compact package.

Originally posted by viggster
Hi all - First visit to thread and hopeful I can get some help.

I live in downtown DC (Logan Circle actually), about 3 miles from the transmitters in Tenleytown. I can pick up WJLA, WUSA, WTTG, and WBDC with my SilverSensor clone and HDTV wonder card. But I can't get any of the PBS stations, which I would really like to pull in.

Now, since I'm so close to the transmitters, I figure that my setup, not my location is the trouble. I'm on the 3rd floor of a 5-story condo building. I face west (toward Tenleytown), but since I'm in the middle of town I'm surrounded by other buildings. I don't think any of them directly block my LOS, but I'm not positive.

I need suggestions for an antenna that will work in my situation. I have a balcony so can mount a small outdoor job out there. But no room for a monster.

Any suggestions? Thanks much.

BV

Hi BV,

Check out AntennaWeb (http://www.antennaweb.org) for pointing your antenna. My understanding is that WETA's digital signal is being broadcast off a completely different tower (in Virginia) than its analog signal (in MD, a mile or so past Tenleytown). The Silver Sensor is great - but it is fairly directional. Try pointing it in the direction indicated on AntennaWeb for channel 27, and see if you get the 4 WETA digital channels....

(I plugged in the approximate address of Logan - used to live in Dupont myself).

Marcus

I am experiencing what seems to be a unique signal problem. I am using a RS VU-190 with no pre-amp to both a D* LG receiver and the ever hard to find HR10-250. The cable run is RG6 and only has one splitter right before the boxes. I have tried a 1000MHz splitter as well as a RS distribution amp.

The problem that I am running into is this, I point the antenna to get a decent (70-85) signal from all stations. Everything is working well so I assume it will continue to work well. About the time I try to watch something the signal drops and the antenna needs to be adjusted (thank goodness for rotators). That was all well and good when I was only tuning one channel at a time. Now that I am trying to do some recordings it presents a problem. Any time I fine tune one channel it adversely effects another. Sometimes the signal will bounce from 0 to 70+ almost constantly. I've always had some problems with tuning, the normal bearing for the antenna should be ~200 degrees but sometimes I have to go as low as 180 or as high as 260.

There are 2 towers that house all of the antennas in the area (Madison, WI). I am ~50 miles from the towers and they are ~2.5 degrees apart. My thinking is that I should be able to receive all stations without moving the antenna since the towers are only 2.5 degrees away from each other.

I am debating on whether to try a CM 7777 or add a CM 4228 for the UHF band. Unfortunately FOX DT is VHF here. I've noticed most of the problems with the UHF side, hence the thought of adding a UHF only antenna.

If I add the 4228 how can I combine that with the VHF side of the VU-190? Is it as simple as removing the UHF side from the VU-190 and running both antennas through a combiner to the one cable?

Any help anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated.

A preamplifier is a great idea at 50 miles. Get a Winegard UHF-only model. (The Channel Master lineup will either amplify VHF, which you're not having trouble with, or fail to pass VHF.)

If you want to combine another antenna, a Channel Master #0549 will do the trick - it will filter out the UHF on one side and the VHF on the other. No modifications to your current antenna would be necessary.

So on the Winegard side the AP-4700 or AP-4800 should be of help. Is there any chance of overdriving the signal at 50 miles or should I be safe going with the bigger of the two? Also, given my distance from the towers would it hurt to amp both VHF and UHF even though I am not currently experiencing problems with the VHF? I might just as soon spend a little extra money now, AP-8275, to know I'm covered down the road. I'd hate the get a UHF only and then experience VHF problems and need to add a VHF or UHF / VHF later.

Also, as I understand it I could go with the CM 4228 and use the CM 0549 to combine and then run through a preamp if needed as well correct?

Thanks.

Originally posted by isyp
So on the Winegard side the AP-4700 or AP-4800 should be of help. Is there any chance of overdriving the signal at 50 miles or should I be safe going with the bigger of the two? Also, given my distance from the towers would it hurt to amp both VHF and UHF even though I am not currently experiencing problems with the VHF? I might just as soon spend a little extra money now, AP-8275, to know I'm covered down the road. I'd hate the get a UHF only and then experience VHF problems and need to add a VHF or UHF / VHF later.

Also, as I understand it I could go with the CM 4228 and use the CM 0549 to combine and then run through a preamp if needed as well correct?

You won't overdrive the signal (unless you have something nearby that's broadcasting at high power.) Generally speaking, you don't need to amplify VHF at 50 miles. It travels further and better than UHF.

Antenna 1 -----------> CM #0549 <---------------- Antenna 2
|
V
Preamplifier

Thank you very much for the advise. I hope it clears up some of the problems I've been having.

Marcus - Thanks for the tips. I checked out AntennaWeb and it does show the WETA towers to the southwest. I'll try that out.

Did you try DTV reception in Dupont? If so, I'd be curious what antenna you went with. BV

I am having a hard time getting the HR10-250 to lock on to a signal. I've got a VHF/UHF attenna, and I am about 26 miles from the site. The interesting this is the HD-300 receiver I have can lock in at 65%, but HR10-250 jumps from 1-41 without locking in? I know it's tuner is not as good, but is this a multipath issuse? I am surrounded by buildings, so I am not sure if I should try a UHF only or perhaps a db4 over a directional antenna?

Originally posted by John Haghighi
I am having a hard time getting the HR10-250 to lock on to a signal. I've got a VHF/UHF attenna, and I am about 26 miles from the site. The interesting this is the HD-300 receiver I have can lock in at 65%, but HR10-250 jumps from 1-41 without locking in? I know it's tuner is not as good, but is this a multipath issuse? I am surrounded by buildings, so I am not sure if I should try a UHF only or perhaps a db4 over a directional antenna?

Sounds like multipath. What do your analog UHF stations look like?

The DB4 is a directional antenna. It's very good.

I have seen several posts with discussion of HD reception issues. I have had very good luck with a Winegard Powered Antenna. It is fairly directional and resembles a batwing. Advanced Audio has been selling them. I was able to receive all HD programming through this antenna 1 mile north of Belle Plaine. It is worth a shot if you are having trouble. So far I have helped 4 friends set up their HD TVs and this has solved their reception issues.

I'm a total noob at all this stuff so I figured I would run it by you guys since there are so many people who know what they are talking about. I live in Aberdeen, MD and according to Antenna Web all the digital stations except PBS have a compass orientation of 256 degrees and are located aproximately 25.2 miles from my house. I don't think I really care to much about PBS but it is located at a compass orientation of 223 degrees and is located approximately 39.1 miles away. All are UHF signals. I also only wish to run it to 1 TV (or to be more specific to my HTL-HD STB). I was looking at the Channel Master 4248 and was wondering if that would be good enough and if I would also need to get a pre-amp or not. I understand that if I wanted to get PBS that I would need to get an antenna rotator. Also, if the CM 4248 isn't good enough could someone recommend one that would work well but I don't really wish to have a stacked antenna even though everyone says they work very well. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer me.

Zero3ffect,
I would try a CM 4221 (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm) outdoor aimed ~240°. If signal strength is low, add a CM 7777 preamp (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/7777.htm), but only if needed.

Mounting the antenna as high up as possible helps.

Originally posted by viggster
Marcus - Thanks for the tips. I checked out AntennaWeb and it does show the WETA towers to the southwest. I'll try that out.

Did you try DTV reception in Dupont? If so, I'd be curious what antenna you went with. BV

Any luck yet with the WETA towers BV?

Didn't have HD equipment when I lived in Dupont, so sorry, no info there. :-)

Hey guys.. Im new to this HDTV stuff and am just getting my butt kicked trying to get OTA stuff. I thought my needs were simple. Here is a list of the towers I am trying to get:

WTVD-DT 11.1 ABC DURHAM NC 39° 7.5 52
WRAL-DT 5.1 CBS RALEIGH NC 39° 8.1 53
WRAZ-DT 50.1 FOX RALEIGH NC 39° 8.1 49
WRDC-DT 28.1 UPN DURHAM NC 39° 8.1 27
WNCN-DT 17.1 NBC GOLDSBORO NC 39° 8.1 55
WLFL-DT 22.1 WB RALEIGH NC 39° 8.1 57

Looks pretty straightforward. I'm reasonably close to the towers and everything pretty much lines up. So, I started with a Silver Sensor, which gets most everything except 28.1. I thought I'd try a 15-1880 which got worse results than the SS. At that point I figured I needed to do something outside. I figured since I was so close to the towers, outside should be a no brainer and solve my problems.

So anyway, the dish installer came and swapped my dish out and while he was at it, he installed a Winegard MS-1000. The MS-1000 is the worse of the 3. It won't get but 1 station. The installer said I probably need a signal amplifier, which he is supposed to bring by tomorrow. He said if that doesn't fix the problem, he is going to install "The Bat Wing", which I assume is some sort of directional antenea.

I guess my big question is what should I expect from adding an amplifier? The guy did the antenea install cheap and I guess it was worth it just to get a mast mounted and a cable run if I have to change it later but I'd sure rather it be working than me have to be monkeying around with it.

So, anyone got any suggestions on how to handle the installer or even a completely different route? I'm open to any suggestions at this point.

Thanks!

Jay

It's highly unlikely a signal amp will improve things.

All your transmitters are in the same spot, apparently. If you have line-of-sight to the towers, you should be using a very directional antenna, and maybe even a signal attenuator. I think that Winegard is one of those "omnidirectional" saucers, is it not? For a quick and easy test, try connecting your Silver Sensor up there and point it at 39°. I'd be surprised if that doesn't pull them in solid.

switch,
Your dish installer is clueless about OTA antennas.

The Winegard MS-1000 is an OMNI-directional antenna, which is absolutely the worst antenna you can use for OTA digital tv. Get a good small, inexpensive CM 4221 outdoor UHF antenna (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm).

You can order one and have it in about 3 days.

Originally posted by tbb1226
It's highly unlikely a signal amp will improve things.

All your transmitters are in the same spot, apparently. If you have line-of-sight to the towers, you should be using a very directional antenna, and maybe even a signal attenuator. I think that Winegard is one of those "omnidirectional" saucers, is it not? For a quick and easy test, try connecting your Silver Sensor up there and point it at 39°. I'd be surprised if that doesn't pull them in solid.

The MS1000 is an omnidirectional, yes. I really didnt think an amp would help either but the installer seemed to think it would. He said if it didn't, "The Bat Wing" was a directional antenea and that was the route we were going to go.

Interesting idea about putting the SS outside. with the coax already run, that's very doable. Might be a good experiment and lay the groundwork for a more permanent solution.

Jay

Originally posted by sregener
Sounds like multipath. What do your analog UHF stations look like?

The DB4 is a directional antenna. It's very good.

There's some ghosting on UHF channels, with that said would a directional be a better choice?

john,
Directional is always better if multipath is a problem. Multipath shows up as ghosting on analog channels and wild signal strength fluctuations or no signal on digital.

My question is: Is it safe to put an in-line amplifyer (such as the ones you buy at radio shack) in between a preamp (channel master 7775 preamp)?

My wire run is well over 200+ feet long. It starts off with my RS 15-2160 in the attic, then to the preamp connector on the antenna, through my existing cable wires on the second floor (set up by my cable company), to the outside box connected to a wire that leads to my downstairs family room, and finally to the power supply and TV. We did this method because it requires only one hole to make in the ceiling and to have no wires running down the side of the house.

If i take one single 100ft wire and connect it directly to the TV downstairs with the preamp on, I receive all the channels with no breakups. But if I go through my method, i get occasional breakups, and KCBS no longer comes in.

So is it safe to use a small inline amplifyer (most likely at my outside cable box where the the anntena is connected to the wire that leads to the TV) along with a preamp? I am afraid it might overload or damage the channel master 7775. I do not wish to change my existing setup, because we do not want to drill any extra holes or have any wires running down the side of the house. Any help is apperciated. Thank you for your time.

Originally posted by xcrappy
So is it safe to use a small inline amplifyer (most likely at my outside cable box where the the anntena is connected to the wire that leads to the TV) along with a preamp? I am afraid it might overload or damage the channel master 7775. I do not wish to change my existing setup, because we do not want to drill any extra holes or have any wires running down the side of the house. Any help is apperciated. Thank you for your time. You should be able to do this; you won't want to use the power inserter included with the inline amplifier since there will already be power provided by the power inserter for the preamp.

There is a small concern that the inline amplifier would overload the power supply if the preamp is needing to draw the max current it can provide, but that probably won't be the case. And I'd expect all that'd happen is voltage would drop and the preamp and inline amplifier both wouldn't be doing much and you'd notice. I wouldn't expect it would harm anything.

If the inline amplifier blocks DC voltage on the antenna side then your preamp will stop working; I don't know if they block DC voltage or let it pass.

Which inline amp do you think i should try?
http://www.circuitcity.com/rpsm/oid/37848/rpem/ccd/productDetailSpecification.do
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D1170
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1051826213441&skuId=5433989&type=product

The ones you linked to at Circuit City and Best Buy are for satellite signals not OTA. Of the 3 only the Radio Shack one is what you want.

Originally posted by dswallow
The ones you linked to at Circuit City and Best Buy are for satellite signals not OTA. Of the 3 only the Radio Shack one is what you want.
But dont they serve the same purpose?
Best Buy- "Amplifies incoming signal for best picture quality when installation requires long cable runs"
Citcuit City - The person who wrote the review said he successfully used it for OTA hdtv reception.

Originally posted by xcrappy
But dont they serve the same purpose?
Best Buy- "Amplifies incoming signal for best picture quality when installation requires long cable runs"
Citcuit City - The person who wrote the review said he successfully used it for OTA hdtv reception.
If you can find any real specs on them, as long as they're amplifying 50-850 MHz OK, they'll work for OTA; you want to be sure they have a decently flat amplification though; any distortion introduced can affect how a receiver could tune the channel.

I would not attempt to connect two line powered preamps on the same line. The RS "inline" amp is basicaly a preamp like the CM 7775.

A one piece amp like these (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/winegard_amps.htm) may work w/ the CM 7775, but noise levels from 2 amps may be too high for DTV.

Xcrappy,
I'd use the CM 3042 which is available at Lowe's. It should solve your problem. You insert it after the power supply to the CM 7775 and it's designed for indoor use. In-line amps are higher noise but also more immune to overload by design. Low noise is not as important in an in-line amp as it is on the mast with the preamp.

Hi - I'm new to HD so apologize for any stupid questions in advance. I have a fairly large antenna on my roof already that gets really good regular broadcasts and the guys at Radio Shack were telling me that this same antenna could be used to get DTV transmissions. Is that true? I was under the impression I needed an antenna that was specifically branded HDTV capable.

Also, can any of you recommend a good OTA STB.

Thanks for any info.

I am wondering if anyone has compared the Channel Master to the Aston Martin? Which is faster in 0-60 times? :D

Really, I have a 4228 and get great results with it. There are a few fringe stations for which I would like a bit more daytime signal. I currently have a CM 7777 pre on the 4228. The specs on the DB8 look better, the balun is better, and the construction is better.

Anyone switch from the 4228 to the DB8? if so, why? What were your experiences?

TIA

TPM

Originally posted by RobbyG
Hi - I'm new to HD so apologize for any stupid questions in advance. I have a fairly large antenna on my roof already that gets really good regular broadcasts and the guys at Radio Shack were telling me that this same antenna could be used to get DTV transmissions. Is that true? I was under the impression I needed an antenna that was specifically branded HDTV capable.

Also, can any of you recommend a good OTA STB.

Have you read the FAQ for this forum? It will tell you that your current antenna can receive HD signals because they're broadcast on the same frequencies as analog television stations. Most are UHF (channel 14 and higher) right now, so if you only get good reception on channels 2-13, you might need a better UHF antenna.

Check the Hardware forum for the STB comparison to see which OTA STB might suit your needs.

Originally posted by RobbyG
... I was under the impression I needed an antenna that was specifically branded HDTV capable.There is no such thing as a DTV or HDTV antenna. All you need is a good OTA UHF or VHF+UHF antenna, depending on what band(s) the DTV stations are using in your area. To find out, enter your address at:
http://www.antennaweb.org
Look at the "Antenna Type" column there to determine if the DTV station is VHF or UHF.

Also, can any of you recommend a good OTA STB.The LG LST-4200A (http://store.cousinsvideo.com/lg-lst-4200a.html) is currently one of the best performing OTA STBs. Also available HERE (http://www.*********************/zenith_HD_PDR.htm), or Google: LST-4200A

OK here is my problem I live in a single story house 14.7 miles from the transmitter(according to antenna web). Right next to us and directly in the way of the tower is a 4 story apt building. Antenna web recommends a medium range directional antenna. I guess I question the idea of pointing a Highly directional antenna right into an apartment building.

As a test I took my silver sensor up to the roof. It does better than it did in the living room, but I still cant get a reliable signal.

To make matters worse there is the WAF. She is now all excited about an attic mount, although I could probably talk her into something small like the wingard Square shooter or one of the smaller antennasdirect Yagi models.

Has anyone out there had success in a similar situation?

I need an indoor antenna that won't put me back a good amount of money and the towers where the HDTV feeds are coming from are 15mi from me. Any ideas? My parents are using a cheap Terk Antenna and it seems to work fine...then again they're only 5mi from their tower.

The Legend (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=930%2D0998)

Originally posted by CycloneGT
The Legend (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=930%2D0998)

doesn't do VHF :(

Originally posted by Nosferatu
doesn't do VHF :(

Actually, it's quite good for hi-VHF (channels 7-13) if you're reasonably close (say, within 20-30 miles.)

My Local Tweeter have recommended the Terk 35; Do anyone have any experience with this Antenna. According to Antennaweb the farthest digital station is 27 miles.

omega379

Do NOT buy any antenna made by TERK. They are not worth the inflated price and seldom work well. When they do work, a coathanger would likely work just as well.

They are often recommended because there's a lot of markup/profit on them.

Originally posted by Nosferatu
I need an indoor antenna that won't put me back a good amount of money and the towers where the HDTV feeds are coming from are 15mi from me. Any ideas? My parents are using a cheap Terk Antenna and it seems to work fine...then again they're only 5mi from their tower. Your two VHF digitals are VHF highband (chs 7-13). They can often be received with an antenna designed for UHF (chs 14-69)

If all your stations are within a few degrees of each other, try a Silver Sensor (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006FXR9/qid=1074444736/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1_etk-electronics/002-6158340-8244052?v=glance&s=electronics&n=172282) pointed in the general direction of the transmitters. If they're spread out in several directions, try a less directional antenna like the Radio Shack double bowtie (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=930%2D0998).

If the VHFs are low on the signal strength meter, add a low noise VHF/UHF preamp, like the CM 7777 (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/7777.htm).

Typical WAF problem here.

Have a Winegard amplified Sensar mounted on my Dish mount. Works ok, but want more. WAF dictates that nothing bigger goes on the roof.

Wondering if adding something like a 4228 in the attic would help. I *think* I could combine these, too, but only if I don't amplify 1 or the other.

Would the indoor mount kill the 4228's usefulness in my install?


BTW - looking to get NYC signals from 06825.

Combining signals from two dissimilar antennas is very difficult to do well. Your most likely result will be digital killing multipath.

Attic installs are a crap shoot. You might get a good signal. You might not. Hard to tell, and impossible to predict. Buy a 4228 from a place that has a good return policy and try it out is the best I can tell you.

Hi

I installed an outside antenna in my attic and it works fine to pull all my hd channels. The antenna I bought also had a fm antenna attached. However, instead of improving the fm reception, it is worse than the reception I get with just the little temporary wire that I got with the receiver.

The antenna directions did not go into much detail, but I followed the installation instructions to the best of my abilty. I ran the coax down from the antenna and then split it at the bottom where one went into the TV for OTA HD receiption and the other went to the Receiveer for fm reception.

At first I thought it may be the cable, but then again it receives the HD channels perfectly. I have swapped out the portion of the cable after the split to the receiver but that has not helped either

Does anyone know why I am having problems??

Thanks

jasguild

... and what would be the antenna you are using?
Type/model #

Thanks to this forum

I got a Samsung STB today as I'm sick of paying E* for my locals. Cool thing is I can do split screen on my Panny 53x54 and put the Baseball game on split ... man the E* colors are horrible. Time to cancel that part of my package.

I'm in St. Louis, live in the city and am getting fairly good reception with a cheapo Jensen indoor antennae. As soon as I fix that problem, I'll get PBS and UPN. Right now its Fox, CBS, NBC and ABC.

Anyhow I've been lurking here so thanks for all the help.

I want to mount a CM4228 in my attic and attach to a E* 811 HD rec. How well would this work with plywood roofing and shingles, 25 miles from most transmissions, two story with large attic south of Atlanta?

Originally posted by jasguild
Hi

I installed an outside antenna in my attic and it works fine to pull all my hd channels. The antenna I bought also had a fm antenna attached. However, instead of improving the fm reception, it is worse than the reception I get with just the little temporary wire that I got with the receiver.

The antenna directions did not go into much detail, but I followed the installation instructions to the best of my abilty. I ran the coax down from the antenna and then split it at the bottom where one went into the TV for OTA HD receiption and the other went to the Receiveer for fm reception.

At first I thought it may be the cable, but then again it receives the HD channels perfectly. I have swapped out the portion of the cable after the split to the receiver but that has not helped either

Does anyone know why I am having problems??

Thanks

jasguild



I am using Radio Shack 15-2154 which is a 120" Boom Length, 37 element antenna


Thanks

Combining Two UHF Antennas?

This is a great forum and I’d like to ask you guys for some advice on how I can combine two UHF antennas without it killing the reception from both.

I live in Cullman, Alabama and I am at the edge of two markets. The Huntsville stations are north-north east and the Birmingham stations are due south. I started off with a DB4 in the attic with no pre-amp. That worked great for the direction I pointed it. The more I learned about the various stations the more I realized I needed to pull in stations from both markets to cover all the OTA HD network content. My second UHF antenna purchase was the CM4228. I have the CM4228 with CM7777 pre-amp pointing toward Birmingham and the DB4 with Philips Pre-amp pointing toward Huntsville. I’m getting every station possible as long as I am only hooking one of the lines up to my D* HD Tivo receiver. If I combine them all the stations go to crap. If I combine them at the pre-amp (eliminating one pre-amp) I get the same thing. A side note to my situation is that the only ABC station in my broadcasting HD is in the low VHF (ch 5). I have a VHF special cut for ch 5 and it also runs through my CM7777 with the VHF separate configuration. The CM4228 and VHF Ch 5 antenna combined using the CM7777 works great but when I combine those with the DB4 it kills the reception for everything.

I think I understand the problem to be multi-path created from the UHF antennas pulling in a signal from the non desired direction. Is there anything I can do to combine these two UHF antennas into a single input to my HD TiVo?

As long as I am at home I can use an A/B switch or just connect the needed cable for what I’m wanting to view at that time but to get the full use out of my TiVo I’d like to be able to just tune stations from both cities without having to make this manual change.

Thanks in advance for any helpful advice you may have.

Mike

Originally posted by hancox
... Have a Winegard amplified Sensar mounted on my Dish mount. Works ok, but want more. WAF dictates that nothing bigger goes on the roof.

Wondering if adding something like a 4228 in the attic would help. I *think* I could combine these, too, but only if I don't amplify 1 or the other...

BTW - looking to get NYC signals from 06825. Quick & dirty answer:
If combining the two antennas with a hybrid splitter/combiner (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D1141) doesn't work, forget combining and use an A/B switch to jump between the 2 antennas. sregener is right - such combinations are always crap shoots.

If antennaweb is correct for that ZIP, you'll need an antenna rotor to get all the stations from a multitude of compass directions :(

Originally posted by mboland
...I’d like to ask you guys for some advice on how I can combine two UHF antennas without it killing the reception from both.Have you tried reversing the balun leads on one of the antennas?

If that doesn't help, I would abandon the combiner and use the A/B setup.

Originally posted by jasguild
I am using Radio Shack 15-2154 which is a 120" Boom Length, 37 element antennaAre you using an antenna amp or preamp? If so, make sure the FM Trap is disabled.

Originally posted by arxaw
Have you tried reversing the balun leads on one of the antennas?

If that doesn't help, I would abandon the combiner and use the A/B setup.

I have not done that but I'll give that a try. Easy enough to try.

Originally posted by mboland
This is a great forum and I’d like to ask you guys for some advice on how I can combine two UHF antennas without it killing the reception from both.


The only way to do this properly (and sometimes it's better to be lucky than good) is to filter out the undesired channels from each antenna. If you only need one channel in a different direction, a Channel Master Jointenna usually does the trick. It has two inputs, one for everything except channel x, and another for channel x only. If you need more than one channel in each direction, then you're looking at very expensive filtering solutions that would probably leave you broke.

Originally posted by arxaw
Are you using an antenna amp or preamp? If so, make sure the FM Trap is disabled.

Hey Arxaw

Thanks for responding. I am NOT using an antenna amp or preamp. Just a straight coaxical wire from the antenna which is split at the bottom for the tv and for the receiver.

jasguild

I used to have an Antenna Specialists splitter that had a single coax input, a single coax VHF/UHF output with FM blocked, and 300-ohm twin-lead terminals with FM bandpass only. It was fried by lightning and I never bothered to look for a replacement. Nevertheless, that splitter was very effective in keeping the first harmonic of a 50kW station on 99.9 from destroying channel 11, and the stereo had reception on 88.1 that was equally as good as 107.9.

Does anyone know if such a splitter is available from any other vendor? It would be grossly inefficient to use a typical VHF/UHF/FM splitter which usually has a coax VHF output, and twin lead outputs for UHF and FM.

Originally posted by mboland
Combining Two UHF Antennas?

This is a great forum and I’d like to ask you guys for some advice on how I can combine two UHF antennas without it killing the reception from both.

I live in Cullman, Alabama and I am at the edge of two markets. The Huntsville stations are north-north east and the Birmingham stations are due south. I started off with a DB4 in the attic with no pre-amp. That worked great for the direction I pointed it. The more I learned about the various stations the more I realized I needed to pull in stations from both markets to cover all the OTA HD network content. My second UHF antenna purchase was the CM4228. I have the CM4228 with CM7777 pre-amp pointing toward Birmingham and the DB4 with Philips Pre-amp pointing toward Huntsville. I’m getting every station possible as long as I am only hooking one of the lines up to my D* HD Tivo receiver. If I combine them all the stations go to crap. If I combine them at the pre-amp (eliminating one pre-amp) I get the same thing. A side note to my situation is that the only ABC station in my broadcasting HD is in the low VHF (ch 5). I have a VHF special cut for ch 5 and it also runs through my CM7777 with the VHF separate configuration. The CM4228 and VHF Ch 5 antenna combined using the CM7777 works great but when I combine those with the DB4 it kills the reception for everything.

I think I understand the problem to be multi-path created from the UHF antennas pulling in a signal from the non desired direction. Is there anything I can do to combine these two UHF antennas into a single input to my HD TiVo?

As long as I am at home I can use an A/B switch or just connect the needed cable for what I’m wanting to view at that time but to get the full use out of my TiVo I’d like to be able to just tune stations from both cities without having to make this manual change.

Thanks in advance for any helpful advice you may have.

Mike You can never combine 2 disimilar antennas and expect any kind of results. We are doing combined installs up here in W.N.Y. and what you must do is get 2 similar antennas. run them to a 2 port antenna coupler with exactly the same lengths of cable or twin lead. then out of the coupler to the amplifier. then donlead to the powersupply and STB. any other combo will result in out of phase signals as well as terrible multipathing. My shop sells all the stuff you need including the hard to find couplers. if ya have any questions e-mail me at rwantsat@localnet.com im always happy to help out anyone on the forum. We've been doing antenna systems since 1982. take care Rich

Originally posted by PhilJSmith67
I used to have an Antenna Specialists splitter that had a single coax input, a single coax VHF/UHF output with FM blocked, and 300-ohm twin-lead terminals with FM bandpass only. It was fried by lightning and I never bothered to look for a replacement. Nevertheless, that splitter was very effective in keeping the first harmonic of a 50kW station on 99.9 from destroying channel 11, and the stereo had reception on 88.1 that was equally as good as 107.9.

Does anyone know if such a splitter is available from any other vendor? It would be grossly inefficient to use a typical VHF/UHF/FM splitter which usually has a coax VHF output, and twin lead outputs for UHF and FM. I have some winegard outdoor model antenna splitter combiners. they will allow a vhf uhf antenna in on one leg and a fm antenna in on the other and a single downlead. this can be used outdoor for 2 seperate antennas or indoors to split off a single antennas signal to dif. devices Winegard no longer makes em but i still have a bunch of them. e-mail me directly at: rwantsat@localnet.com
take care Rich

This new way of organizing the OTA topics is great for area discussions, but is not good for topics such as antennas. Perhaps the mods could do a similar breakdown for antenna types?

CM 4228
Dat 75
WG 8808 ect....

Originally posted by thepicman
I am wondering if anyone has compared the Channel Master to the Aston Martin? Which is faster in 0-60 times? :D

Really, I have a 4228 and get great results with it. There are a few fringe stations for which I would like a bit more daytime signal. I currently have a CM 7777 pre on the 4228. The specs on the DB8 look better, the balun is better, and the construction is better.

Anyone switch from the 4228 to the DB8? if so, why? What were your experiences?

TIA

TPM

It would make sense to start a topic under HDTV Hardware (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=25) instead of this market-oriented Local HDTV Info and Reception forum.

I'm looking for an antenna recommendation.

I live between 2 and 12 miles from any towers I'm trying to receive.

Here's the kicker though, compass ranges from 11 degrees to 317 degrees and must have channels are at 11, 187, and 317 (ridiculous, huh).

Channels range from 2.1 to 58.1, but must have channels only range from 2.1 to 17.1.

Frequency assignments range from 15 to 56, with 15 and 56 both being very important.

Antennaweb recommends a "red" antenna. I was considering a CM 4221 for outdoor or a Silver Sensor for indoor. Which do you guys think is a better idea. I know the general rule is bigger is better and higher is better, but I'm so close to the stations, that I wasn't sure if that held.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Wad

Originally posted by wad06
I live between 2 and 12 miles from any towers I'm trying to receive.


I'd try the Silver Sensor first. If it doesn't work, you can always return it.

It's highly unlikely that any outdoor antenna is going to work for you without a rotor, given the wide spread of directions you need to receive. You could try a 4-bay bowtie with the reflector screen removed. It *might* work.

Originally posted by wad06
... I live between 2 and 12 miles from any towers I'm trying to receive.

Here's the kicker though, compass ranges from 11 degrees to 317 degrees and must have channels are at 11, 187, and 317I would bet a CM 4221 4bay bowtie would work fine. The channels 2 miles away will likely be received regardless of the antenna direction.

The CM 4221 will often easily receive stations up to 60° apart (I am actually using one to receive stations ~130° apart). Aim the CM 4221 @344° N/NW.


The 4bay bowtie works better over a wider range of channels and is more forgiving of inprecise aiming than a yagi/Silver Sensor.

Originally posted by PhilJSmith67
It would make sense to start a topic under HDTV Hardware (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=25) instead of this market-oriented Local HDTV Info and Reception forum. Not really.

It's impossible to make blanket antenna comparisons (unless you're comparing TERK antennas to all others :) ). Antenna performance varies greatly, depending on where you live and the channels and bands (VHF or UHF or both) being used in your area.

IMO, the moderators have rightly made antenna discussion a local info and reception topic.

Thank you for the quick answers. I'll try both and see which works better.

My biggest concern with for the Silver Sensor is to point it out the window in the direction I need it to point would require putting the antenna on the other side of the house from the entertainment center. With the CM 4221, I can put it in the attic or just mount it outside and run the wire into the basement and up through the floor (hole is pre-existing).

After reading numerous threads, it seems the concensus is the Silver Sensor for indoor and the CM 4221 for outdoor.

Is there ever a situation where a Silver Sensor is a better choice than the CM 4221 (not counting aesthetics)?

Wad

Originally posted by arxaw

IMO, the moderators have rightly made antenna discussion a local info and reception topic.

Agreed, but my original post was about dividing the differing antennas up into smaller sections so that my rather obscure question about DB8s and 4228s is not mired in with 7 billion other posts.

Originally posted by wad06
... Is there ever a situation where a Silver Sensor is a better choice than the CM 4221 (not counting aesthetics)?Possibly, where a more directional antenna is needed for multipath rejection. However, as new tuners keep improving how they deal with multipath, this is becoming less of an issue in multipath-plagued areas.

In your case, you may want a slightly less directional antenna that won't require re-aiming it when you change channels. So the 4221 would probably be a better choice. But if the 4221 isn't available locally and the Silver Sensor is, you might try the SS in the attic first, then return it if it doesn't work well. The SS is not designed for installing outdoors and may not hold up well

Attic Antenna installed during home construction in highest point of attic for off Air HD reception with Dish Network receiver. I am able to receive only one station 50 percent of the time to view HD programing. What device should or can I use to boost the reception from this antenna?

Originally posted by CarDawg
Attic Antenna installed during home construction in highest point of attic for off Air HD reception with Dish Network receiver. I am able to receive only one station 50 percent of the time to view HD programing. What device should or can I use to boost the reception from this antenna?

Well, you can start by telling us the brand, or taking a picture with a digital camera and posting that. For all we know, you have rabbit ears.

The best thing you could do is take that antenna outside. It may not fix your reception problems, but attics are tricky places to get a reliable signal from. It at least doubles your chances of getting a usable signal, and it might do better than that.

Originally posted by CarDawg
Attic Antenna installed during home construction in highest point of attic for off Air HD reception with Dish Network receiver. I am able to receive only one station 50 percent of the time to view HD programing.What type of roof do you have?
Do you have TechShield, or other Radiant Barrier roof decking installed under the roofing?
What type of siding does the house have?
Does it have a foil radiant barrier in the walls?
All of these things can affect indoor/attic antenna reception.

Also, what frequencies are the channels broadcasting on in your area? UHF? VHF? Both? This determines the type of antenna you need. See http://www.antennaweb.org for station frequency assignments.

Perusing this forum, when it comes to indoor antennas the Silver Sensor (http://www.antiference.co.uk/sensor/) is tops, but looking at the Net Gain plots on hdtvprimer (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html) it looks like the DB-2 (http://www.antennasdirect.com/IndoorAntennas.htm) is a much better indoor antenna as far as gain and directivity. Other than looks and price is there anything else that puts the Silver sensor on top?

Maybe some of you out there old enough remember uhf parabolic antennas? these were produced by channel master (6 and 7 ft) Delhi 5 ft.
Finco and antennacraft (basiclly the same one) 5+7 foot.
Anyhow there is no better antenna when it comes to getting the highest signal from the weakest stations. With all these flea powered stations on dtv we need better technology. I've been in the antenna business for 25 years I have used all kinds of uhf antennas out there. Right now the best i've seen is the winegard Prostar 9022 and 9032 for overall highest gain and directivity and the Cm 4228 8 bay bowtie which has lees gin but wider beamwidths. As far as all those so called high priced yagi's like Telves and Db they offer nothig more than a pretty antenna and alot higher price. I have tried some of these antennas in the toughest of areas. The CAtskill and Allegheny mountains of N.Y. state. These are tru test areas for antenna specs. Thes best antenna ive seen is the Winegards. The really pull things out of the mud. Anyhow Im in the process of redsigning the old parablic uhf antennas. i am working with an antenna distributor to design the feeds for me and i am putting together the reflector. these will be the ultimate of antennas for uhf. stay tuned to this channel for more updates. we are currently in the design stage. Anyone with questions can e-mail me directly at: rwantsat@localnet.com
Rich Wertman
R.W. Antenna Service Inc.
Lockport,N.Y.

If I wanted to try using more than one antenna for HD (one indoor, the other possibly outdoors) because of different required directions, do I need to use a switch, or can I just run both inputs "backwards" through a splitter?

Steve
Sunnyvale, SI

As far as all those so called high priced yagi's like Telves and Db they offer nothig more than a pretty antenna and alot higher price. I have tried some of these antennas in the toughest of areas. The CAtskill and Allegheny mountains of N.Y. state. These are tru test areas for antenna specs. Thes best antenna ive seen is the Winegards.

rwantennasat,

I've done extensive comparison b/w the Winegard PR9032 and the Televes DAT 75 and I'll have to disagree with you here. The 9032 is a good antenna especially for the price but the Televes beats it consistently up and down the uhf spectrum in long distance reception.

I'll be interested to see your proposed new parabolic antennas.

One criticism of the parabolics is they're prone to multipath which is a bane to digital reception. The relatively low front to back ratio can also be problematic but improved by screening the dish. The 5th generation chip due out soon is supposed to improve reception in multipath prone areas so maybe the dish designs will become more attractive. Of course, wind load and weight are major considerations as well.

I've searched the thread but could not find a specific answer to this question. I have a UHF and a VHF antenna going through a CM 7777. The mast is grounded. Do I still need to install a grounding block, and if so where should it go?

Do I still need to install a grounding block, and if so where should it go?

Yes, right before the coax enters the house is ideal.

Originally posted by cpcat
Yes, right before the coax enters the house is ideal.

Thanks for the reply. However, doesn't the coax carry voltage to the pre-amp and won't this short the static discharge block?

However, doesn't the coax carry voltage to the pre-amp and won't this short the static discharge block?

No. Only the shield is grounded when you run the coax through the grounding block.

Originally posted by mdputnam
... Other than looks and price is there anything else that puts the Silver sensor on top? The Silver Sensor is more directional than the DB2. Some people need a directional antenna to block multipath. Others don't. For people with stations in different directions and no MP problems, a less directional antenna like the DB2 or CM 4221 may be a better choice, because it might get all their stations without reaiming the antenna every time they change channels.

There is no "top" antenna. The best antenna for you depends on station frequencies being used, distance, transmitter power, location & height and terrain. The best antenna for you may be completely different than for someone in another town, or even for your next door neighbor.

Originally posted by bec
... I have a UHF and a VHF antenna going through a CM 7777. The mast is grounded. Do I still need to install a grounding block, and if so where should it go? As others stated, put the coax grounding block near the entrance point of the house. It will not short out your preamp power supply.

All antenna and coax grounds should connect to the main electrical power ground source for your house. This is often a ground rod near the electric meter. In some areas (but only where allowed by local codes), the power may be grounded to a metal cold water pipe.

If you used a separate ground rod for the antenna mast, a large gauge ground wire should be connected between this rod and the main power ground source. This is called "bonding" and will reduce the possiblility of equipment damage due to differences in voltage potential between two ground sources.

Originally posted by SI67
If I wanted to try using more than one antenna for HD (one indoor, the other possibly outdoors) because of different required directions, do I need to use a switch, or can I just run both inputs "backwards" through a splitter? Results are usually a crap shoot, but try connecting both antenna coaxes to the "outputs" of a Hybrid Splitter/Combiner (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?cookie%5Ftest=1&catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D1141), then run a single RG6 from the splitter/combiner's "input" to the TV or tuner. This may work perfectly, or it may kill some or all of your reception. More often than not, combining may cause varying or intermittent reception problems.

If it doesn't work, try reversing the wires on one of the antenna's 300/75 ohm matching transformer (balun).

If still no luck, the best choice for using two antennas is an A/B switch. Remote controlled A/B switches (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F010%5F011%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D1968) work well for this.

Originally posted by arxaw

If you used a separate ground rod for the antenna mast, a large gauge ground wire should be connected between this rod and the main power ground source. This is called "bonding" and will reduce the possiblility of equipment damage due to differences in voltage potential between two ground sources.

Uh now I'm confused. The coax cable and the business part of the antenna are attached to the house electrical system through the receiver, and so the coax shield should be grounded to the house electric system to avoid ground loops. The antenna mast is electrically isolated from the business end of the TV antenna and coax (otherwise the mast would be part of the antenna which would not be a good thing). Since the mast is isolated from the house electrical system under normal conditions it should not develop a ground loop using a different ground. That's how a installer explained it to me, is he wrong or did I misunderstand him?

What installer told you this? Satellite TV?

Read the literature that comes with every outdoor antenna, it tells you to bond BOTH coax shield and antenna mast to the main electrical power ground. There is usually a diagram included showing both items grounded to the same common ground.

It is also against national electric code (NEC) to not bond all grounds electrically to the same source for: antennas, satellite, cable TV and telephone.

A friend of mine says he recalls seeing rigid 75-ohm coax cable connectors that are several inches long and would be inserted through a wall, leaving the threaded female connector end sticking out on either side. They'd be just like the common cable couplers that are are about an inch, just much longer. Now that I think about it, I'm a little dubious because there would need to be a number of different lengths to accommodate various wall thicknesses. He is certain he has seen them somewhere, but now that he and I could both use such a thing, we can't find a shred of information. Has anyone heard of of these things?

I know about feed-through bushings (available in black or white), of course, but was hoping to avoid having to acquire the tools to do my own cutting and termination.

Steve
Sunnyvale

I've never seen what you describe but you could accomplish the same thing by using two wall plates and running a short length of coax between them inside the wall. You'd have to put the plates at slightly different heights on the wall so they wouldn't be directly opposite one another but it should work fine. You could use a preterminated 1m cable and just bunch up the excess inside the wall. I wouldn't hesitate to terminate either, it's really not difficult. Screw-on terminations are available if you don't want to fool with crimping.

Originally posted by cpcat
... Screw-on terminations are available if you don't want to fool with crimping. Some people on this forum claim that the screw-on RG6 connectors are no good, but I've used them a few times when I didn't have crimping tools available, and they've always worked well.

Well, after reading 24 pages of post, I still have my question.
I am getting good signal on my new 4228 pointed in one direction, but now think that I might do to put up a second antenna in the opposite direction to get some stations that are coming from other areas.

If I put it up near the first antenna, is there some soft of UHF combiner that I can use in order to re-use or continue to use the RG6 that I have running to the house? I would rather not run another line, and would love to just combine these signals.

thanks
tb

Originally posted by tivoboy
... If I put it up near the first antenna, is there some soft of UHF combiner that I can use in order to re-use or continue to use the RG6 that I have running to the house?You can try combining the two antennas, using a hybrid splitter/combiner like this one from Radio Shaft (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?cookie%5Ftest=1&catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F003%5F001&product%5Fid=15%2D1141):
http://www.radioshack.com/images/ProductCatalog/ProductImage/15/15-1141.jpg

Connect the 2 antenna inputs to "Set 1" & "Set 2" on the splitter/combiner. Run a single RG6 to the tuner, from the connector marked "INPUT".

Combining 2 antennas is a crap shoot, and frequently causes problems with some channels, or sometimes kills all your channels. If you have problems, try reversing the flat wire balun leads on one of the antennas, to see if reception improves. If no improvement, you'll need to run 2 coax leads and connect them to an A/B switch to change antennas when you want to watch the ones from a different direction. RatShaft also has remote controlled A/B switches for about 35 bucks.

Originally posted by tivoboy
Well, after reading 24 pages of post, I still have my question.
I am getting good signal on my new 4228 pointed in one direction, but now think that I might do to put up a second antenna in the opposite direction to get some stations that are coming from other areas....

And if that fails, the obvious solution is a rotor ....

Hi everyone,

I live just around 9-10 miles away from the broadcasting towers and using an outdoor atenna with my LG LST4200A and only can get the signal to the 50%-55%.

Does anyone have any suggestion about any other atennas, preamp, etc... that may help to get more signal strenght?

Thanks!

I currently have a Pioneer HDTV with cox basic cable (not digital) and Directv for international package.

I am thinking about buying the LG LST-3510 HD set top box with DVD to capture local HD. Centreville is about 25miles to all the local station. Has anyone had good experiences with an indoor antenna like Gemini ZHDTV1 HDTV-UHF in the area? I rather not deal with an attic or outdoor antenna if I can help it. Will the fact that Centreville is on the flight path for Dulles affect reception?

The only thing I will be watching on HD is Redskins games therefore I don't want to spend the extra money for Cox HD. I have also heard a lot of good things with a direct DVI to DVI from the DVD player to the HDTV. Is it a better picture than just the component video connection?

Thanks for your help.

Dave

If I want to better educate myself on antenna installation, are there "good" books, magazines out there that are up to date? Also does one need to be a cert electrician, or call one when it comes to the grounding issues? I would assume not, since most people are DIY installers.

Originally posted by haidaovcf
I live just around 9-10 miles away from the broadcasting towers and using an outdoor atenna with my LG LST4200A and only can get the signal to the 50%-55%.


"Outdoor antenna" tells us exactly nothing about what kind of antenna you have. There are as many different types of outdoor antenna as you can imagine. Please post a picture or model number so we can take a better stab at what the problem might be.

Originally posted by mws6468
If I want to better educate myself on antenna installation, are there "good" books, magazines out there that are up to date? Also does one need to be a cert electrician, or call one when it comes to the grounding issues? I would assume not, since most people are DIY installers.

Most antenna installation is not learned from books. It's learned by putting a few up. If you're a generally handy person, you can figure out most of it without much trouble. I'm generally not handy, yet managed to install a Winegard HD7084-P on my roof using a chimney mount (+guy wires) secure enough to survive 75mph winds.

I'd guess that most certified electricians would have no clue how to ground an antenna. There are several threads on this board that list detailed requirements for proper grounding.

Ok... I just got an HDTV and i'm going to have to get an antenna. My question is- How do I know where to point it? What do I point it towards?

Also, what antenna do you recommend? I don't really want to put it on my roof but I may have to. I heard about the squareshooter but I'm not sure if it's actually good.

Thanks

www.antennaweb.org is a great place to start.

Check your local market's thread for more information on stations and what people are using.

Generic antenna questions belong in the antenna discussion thread stuck at the top of this forum.

I've just received my T351 HDTV receiver and I'm trying to get reception via a Silver Sensor Digital HDTV antenna. When I plug the antenna into the coax input on the receiver I get the message "no signal". When I go into the menuing system on the T351 to signal strength I get 0 bars. I live in the city of Chicago and am 2 miles from the sears tower (where I understand that the broadcast is coming from). The antenna is an indoor antenna and I have tried moving it around thru out my condo without getting any bars on my signal strength.

So, I'm looking for suggestions. I could understand if I were only getting a few bars that the signal was weak but it seems suprising that I would get no signal whatsoever.

Does this mean that my receiver is DOA or is it possible that with an indoor antenna I am really getting no HDTV signal at all?

Thanks in advance!!

Originally posted by snoopy123
I've just received my T351 HDTV receiver and I'm trying to get reception via a Silver Sensor Digital HDTV antenna. When I plug the antenna into the coax input on the receiver I get the message "no signal". When I go into the menuing system on the T351 to signal strength I get 0 bars. Have you done a channel scan?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by mws6468
If I want to better educate myself on antenna installation, are there "good" books, magazines out there that are up to date? Also does one need to be a cert electrician, or call one when it comes to the grounding issues? I would assume not, since most people are DIY installers.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Here is a useful guide to some of the basics: http://www.channelmaster.com/pdf/AntInstallGuide.pdf

Originally posted by snoopy123
I've just received my T351 HDTV receiver and I'm trying to get reception via a Silver Sensor Digital HDTV antenna. When I plug the antenna into the coax input on the receiver I get the message "no signal". When I go into the menuing system on the T351 to signal strength I get 0 bars. I live in the city of Chicago and am 2 miles from the sears tower (where I understand that the broadcast is coming from). The antenna is an indoor antenna and I have tried moving it around thru out my condo without getting any bars on my signal strength.

So, I'm looking for suggestions. I could understand if I were only getting a few bars that the signal was weak but it seems suprising that I would get no signal whatsoever.

Does this mean that my receiver is DOA or is it possible that with an indoor antenna I am really getting no HDTV signal at all?

Thanks in advance!!

A good diagnostic tool in your situation would be to hook the antenna up to a small portable tv and check local analog signals like 2,5,7,9,20,26,32,38,44,60,and 66.If most are watchable with little snow,and minimal ghosting(multiple images) then you should have at least some signal showing up on the DT side.If not,the box may be bad.

Hey All,
I'm located in South Haven MI. which is on the lake approx. between Holland and St.Joe. I will be putting up an antenna w/ rotor and pre-amp for HDTV this fall.I somewhat fall on the outer edges of the G.R., South Bend,IN., and Chicago markets
Since all but three of the stations I want are UHF,the exceptions being WWMT 2,WOOD 7,do I want a huge 12ft deep fringe comboUHF/VHF antenna? Or would I be better off with 1 or 2 stacked deep fringe UHF ones on a rotor combined with a seperate VHF one fixed at those two stations mentioned?
To spin that 12fter around in the winter not to mention the installation involved would'nt seem to make sense. thanks

Originally posted by bobbehr
Hey All,
I'm located in South Haven MI. which is on the lake approx. between Holland and St.Joe. I will be putting up an antenna w/ rotor and pre-amp for HDTV this fall.I somewhat fall on the outer edges of the G.R., South Bend,IN., and Chicago markets
Since all but three of the stations I want are UHF,the exceptions being WWMT 2,WOOD 7,do I want a huge 12ft deep fringe comboUHF/VHF antenna? Or would I be better off with 1 or 2 stacked deep fringe UHF ones on a rotor combined with a seperate VHF one fixed at those two stations mentioned?
To spin that 12fter around in the winter not to mention the installation involved would'nt seem to make sense. thanks

A good all-around performing setup in your situation would be a CM4228 8-bay for UHF,and a Winegard 5030 mounted 3ft below that for VHF.CM9521 rotor and CM7777 preamp and you're good to go.The overall windload is not that great,so the masting/support structure needn't be too elaborate or expensive.At some point down the road you WILL want to move the VHF.

All the above can be purchased at www.warrenelectronics.com

Originally posted by bobbehr
I will be putting up an antenna w/ rotor and pre-amp for HDTV this fall.I somewhat fall on the outer edges of the G.R., South Bend,IN., and Chicago markets... To spin that 12fter around in the winter not to mention the installation involved would'nt seem to make sense. thanks

You've got to decide how important those VHF digitals are to you. Frankly, I wouldn't count on WBBM out of Chicago - read the Chicago thread for a long history of people with problems much closer than you are. That said, the UHF stations from Chicago might come in just fine because of the lake. I'd get just a UHF antenna and a good preamplifier (from Winegard or Channel Master) and see what you can get. You'll probably pick up the VHF digital on channel 7, even with a UHF-only antenna (though not with a Channel Master UHF-only preamplifier, they don't pass VHF.) Then you can decide whether it's worthwhile to add a VHF antenna for the few digitals that you might want (use a Channel Master #0549, about $10, if you combine two antennas together) if they're not coming in.

Again, don't count on WBBM-DT until the analog shutoff.

Bobbehr,

I would tend to agree with Max HD's recommendation.

I would not count on receiving VHF stations(even hi-VHF 7-13) with a UHF only antenna. It can work if there is a strong enough signal present, but so will a coat hanger.

You'll probably get better info/reports in the local threads that pertain to the markets you mention, I would suspect however that a small-Meduim size VHF/UHF combo antenna(RS VU-90, CM3016, Winegard PR5646 would be on the small side, you might want to go a step up from that) may work well for you Grand-rapids stations. I looked on the map, and looks like you would be about 25~30 miles or so from WWMT+WOOD's tower(s). I didn't check the other Grand rapids area Stations tower locations, don't know if they are near WWMT/WOOD. Looks like you are about 60 miles or so from South Bend, and 80 miles or so across the lake to Chicago.

Coverage area map(28dbu contour) for WWMT-DT 2 :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT604965.html

Hopefully, WBBM 2 analog(or WLS analog 7 for your WOOD-DT 7 reception) won't noise things up too much off the back side of the antenna, for this reason, it might especially be a good idea to go with a VHF antenna with decent directivity and forward gain, such as the winegard 5030 Max HD mentioned.

I also looked at the coverage area maps for some of the Chicago/South bend stations. It looks like you would generally be well outside the coverage area for Chicago, although, as Srenger mentioned since you're on the lake, if not all the time, with a decent antenna setup you'll probably see them quite often via a bit of enhanced signal propagation(tropo scatter), and a nice, hi-gain antenna setup w/rotor wouldn't hurt - but I certianly would not count on receiving chicago at all times.

As a typical example - WGN-DT 19 Chicago predicted coverage area map (41dbu contour ) from FCC site:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT968641.html

South Bend might be doable with a good antenna, but would be fringe" area, and you look to be a bit beyond the predicted coverage area for South bend stations. For example, Follows is link to predicted coverage area(41 dbu contour) for WNDU-DT 42, South bend:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT429535.html

Srenger,

As bobbehr noted, WWMT-DT, Kalmazoo-Grand Rapids Transmits on RF channel 2. They are currently licensed on 2 for 6.9KW ERP with non-directional transmitting antenna.

WWMT analog broadcasts on Channel 3 at 100KW ERP. Making WBBM-DT 3 reception from bobbehr's location likely impossible, or very very difficult(except during periods of "extremely" enhanced propagation of signals from Chicago "over the lake") in any event.

For that matter, I would expect reception of chigago stations given any co-channel chicago/Grand Rapids circumstance(regardless of where they are on the dial), to be generally difficult to impossible from within the station's coverage area, even after analog shut off.

I use a Radio Shack TV500 VHF/UHF/FM antenna to view HDTV. I have a Zenith HDV420 terrestrial receiver. The Radio Shack antenna sits behind the couch on a picture window.

I am approximately 11 miles from the TV towers atop Queen Anne hill in Seattle. I can walk outside and se them with an unobstructed view.

Size does not matter in my case. However. The antenna suffers from shawdowing if I raise my hand or walk in front of the TV at times. I suggest mounting your antenna in the attic. This is my next step. I have been using the Zenith HDV420 for about 1 year. I have a second generation Mitsubishi RPTV 65" with component connections only. This set is one step below diamond vision which had an RGB connection as well.

My only complaint is that Seattle stations do not broadcast in Dolby 5.1. The ABC station (KOMO) did Monday night football and some Sunday night movies in Dolby 5.1 last season. This season Monday night football has been in dolby pro logic only.

I anybody is receiving dolby 5.1 please correct me. I run through a denon receiver with auto signal detection. The HD receiver still says Dolby Digital on all broadcasts though.

With regards to the antenna, higher is definately better. I have a friend who lives 3 miles further from the TV towers and had to purchase the old rooftop monster antenna. I will get the model number of the rooftop antenna and post for everyone.

One final note. The radio shack TV500 is probably 7 years old and has since been discontinued I'm sure.

Originally posted by sregener
... I'd get just a UHF antenna and a good preamplifier (from Winegard or Channel Master) ..... Then you can decide whether it's worthwhile to add a VHF antenna for the few digitals that you might want (use a Channel Master #0549, about $10, if you combine two antennas together) I also think it's a good idea to use a good dedicated UHF antenna and add the VHF later if desired.

If you get a Channel Master CM 7777 VHF/UHF preamp (http://warrenelectronics.com/antennas/7777.htm), you won't need the CM #0549 combiner. The 7777 has separate V/U inputs and a built in combiner, for combining separate VHF/UHF antennas onto one downlead.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
As bobbehr noted, WWMT-DT, Kalmazoo-Grand Rapids Transmits on RF channel 2. They are currently licensed on 2 for 6.9KW ERP with non-directional transmitting antenna. [...]

For that matter, I would expect reception of chigago stations given any co-channel chicago/Grand Rapids circumstance(regardless of where they are on the dial), to be generally difficult to impossible from within the station's coverage area, even after analog shut off.

Ah, I missed that one. And you're right about co-channel problems.

I'd still get as large a VHF/UHF combo as you can, even if you can "get by" with less. There's almost no harm in having more gain than you need, but there's a lot of harm in having a little less than you need. FWIW, I highly recommend the Winegard HD8200P for people who don't need absolute perfection from the UHF side (it's very good, but a hair under the best.)

For the best long-distance UHF (which also does great on hi-VHF inside of 60 miles) read my review: http://www.geocities.com/figbert/91xg.html

I live between the HD OTA broadcast locations in Washington State and BC, almost directly North/South. I'd rather not use a rotor. What kind of performance can I expect if I mount two antennas back to back?

Roughly, what's the distance between you and the transmitter sites you want to receive? Are the stations VHF, UHF or both?

I want to try an HD OTA antenna. I have read that this model is quite good. I want something that naturally works but is also not an eye sore or overly large.The station is about 45 miles from me and the terrain is as flat as the proverbial pancake. Any comments and/or suggestions would be appreciated.
Thank you in advance.

arxaw; Thanks for the reply. I'm between 30-50 miles on the south side and less than 20 on the north side. There are no obstructions and very few high rise buildings in my neighborhood. I am hoping to get both UHF and VHF signals although I may use a separate antennae for UHF.

Originally posted by rll
I want to try an HD OTA antenna. I have read that [the SquareShooter] is quite good. I want something that naturally works but is also not an eye sore or overly large.The station is about 45 miles from me and the terrain is as flat as the proverbial pancake.

Normally, I wouldn't recommend a SquareShooter at 45 miles, but if the terrain really is flat and you have no blockage, it'll probably work for high powered (over 100kw ERP) UHF digitals.

Generally, the bigger the antenna, the better the reception. What you want is to defeat the laws of physics by getting a tiny antenna that performs like a large one. Sorry, can't happen. But with digital reception, you don't need a perfect signal, just "good enough" for the tuner to figure out the errors and correct them. And the SS1000 might be "good enough" in your case, but there's no way to know for sure until you try it.

sregener,
I am in the northwestern area of minnesota, almost to the ND border. I just read that this antenna works. Is there something else you would also recommend to try?
Thanks.

Originally posted by rll
I am in the northwestern area of minnesota, almost to the ND border. I just read that this antenna works. Is there something else you would also recommend to try?

At 45 miles, I'd recommend an AntennasDirect DB8. If you want to save a couple of bucks, the Channel Master 4228 or Winegard PR-8800 would be adequate choices. None of these look like a "normal" antenna, but they perform great.

The SquareShooter is designed more for use in an urban environment where you're likely to have multipath. It works great for people close in to major cities, but I've yet to hear good things about it's long-range potential.

Originally posted by sregener
... the Channel Master 4228 or Winegard PR-8800 would be adequate choices. None of these look like a "normal" antenna, but they perform great.It depends on what your definition of "normal" is. I've seen them for years, in towns that have predominantly UHF TV (example (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=&arn=&city=starkville&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=2&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9))

With my current setup I reliably receive distant Los Angles UHF stations (106 miles) and local San Diego UHF stations (2.5 miles) I currently use a Radio Shack amp/preamplifier (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-2507) with a variable gain pot on the amplifier section. Unfortunately, if you turn the gain down enough for the local stations you get dropouts on the distant stations. Crank it up for the distant stations and the locals are overloaded. Is there a quality amp/preamp that is more immune to overload with better than Radio Shack's 4.5 dB noise figure?

I am under the impression that an OTA HD broadcast can be better than the same program received via satellite or cable HD, but I'd like to know why that is. An antenna package I saw said something about receiving "true 1080i" broadcasts or something on that order. I believe I have a passable understanding of 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i. So why is OTA better, or sometimes better, or potentially better than satellite or cable HD? I checked the HDTV FAQ here first but didn't find anything.

Steve
Sunnyvale, CA

Some cable systems apply additional MPEG compression to the OTA streams when they relay them on cable, so that they can cram a few more subchannels into their available spectrum.

This practice varies from system to system, however. My local Comcast provider does not appear to be playing the "compress and cram" game, and simply pairs up two OTA streams per physical 6 MHz channel allocation. Without me going into a long explanation on why, I'll just state that a single 6 MHz channel on cable has exactly twice the bandwidth of a 6 MHz channel over-the-air. (For more info, refer to 256QAM vs. 8VSB modulation.) Thus, the only information that is getting replaced when the OTA stations are put on cable is the PSIP and PID info.

One big factor has to do with your local provider's equipment quality. Mine has good enough equipment that they are able to utilize the entire available spectrum, from channel 2 up through 125. Some providers have loads of cabling and switches that can't handle frequencies that high, so they're forced to jam more subchannels into 2 through 95, or perhaps less. In those cases, it's more cost-effective for the provider to play the compress-and-cram game instead of sending out trucks with spools of cable and equipment to update the entire service area.

For what cable costs, I think that's a lousy choice on the provider's part, but some are buying a few years time by doing just that. Basically, what these providers are doing is collecting the additional revenue for adding HD, but in return for that money, they're providing a substandard product.

One thing you can do is contact the local cable provider and ask. If they tell you that they do not re-compress, or add additional compression, to local digital stations like CBS, ABC, NBC, PBS and Fox, then they will proudly tell you (although they might have to get back to you on that). If they refuse to answer or don't know, then there is a strong chance that anyone with the HD cable service is not getting the best picture possible.

As for satellite, I honestly don't know if they play games with the HD signals. The quality from Voom is supposedly good, but I haven't witnessed it myself.

Originally posted by mdputnam
... Crank it up for the distant stations and the locals are overloaded. Is there a quality amp/preamp that is more immune to overload with better than Radio Shack's 4.5 dB noise figure? The excess noise may be your problem. I would try a preamp like Channel Master CM 7775 or 7777, or a Winegard or BlonderTongue. They have much lower noise than the RatShack amps.

I'm about to buy an antenna another member recommended. Just wanted to make sure there wasn't anything better out there. I'm 28 miles from 9 digital channels w/i 195 and 200 degrees. The D* tech installed a GS220 Wineguard, which only picks up like 3 or 4 and 3 of them are real spotty. It's horrible basically. It's mounted 30 foot high on my house roof. We have tall skinny trees surrounding our house. I have read and was told the 4228 is the way to go. Can you guys concur? Thanks. Dunno if it matters, but I have the DTC210 RCA HD STB. Freq range is 16 to 50.

Dale

Here's my question. What type of meter is good to locate off air locals signal?