If you get an improvement with a 9032, then you might buy a second one and horizontally stack it.

Two questions on the 9032. First, I've used the 9085 but never had luck with any hi vhf. Any luck for GLW65 on Ch13 with this one? Second, would he use the full wavelength of roughly 2 feet (using Ch 14 as the lowest to receive) on horizontal spacing, or do you recommend a longer distance?

You're using the splitter in reverse, so there isn't 3.5dB of loss - more like 0.5dB of loss. And loss isn't your problem - multipath is, multipath you are creating by using two antennas pointed in two different directions that are both picking up signals on the same frequency. You would do better to invest in a remote A/B switch to switch between the two antennas instead of the splitter, or look into filtering if you absolutely must get all the channels at once.
An RF Splitter used in reverse can COMBINE the signals from two antennas.
Inside is an RF Hybrid Transformer, which uses a 1:2 transformer to split each input, with half of the signal energy dumped to an internal "unbalanced load" resistor (one of these is connected out of phase to the other):
http://www.macom.com/Application%20Notes/pdf/m560.pdf
http://www.macom.com/Application%20Notes/pdf/m561.pdf
http://www.macom.com/Application%20Notes/pdf/m568.pdf
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5774611&highlight=hybrid#post5774611

With half the energy from each input dumped to the internal load resistor, the insertion loss is about 3.5 dB, EXCEPT when the signals from the two antennas are EQUAL AMPLITUDE and IN-PHASE, at which time the loss in the Hybrid Combiner can approach 0.5 dB. Under these "balanced" conditions, the signal energy dumped into the internal load resistor from each of the inputs is equal and exactly out of phase from each other, resulting in no net voltage being applied to the resistor and hence minimal insertion loss.

When you have two MATCHED antennas pointed in the same direction the Hybrid loss can approach 0.5 dB under IDEAL conditions. Of course multipath effects will frequently result in signals with different amplitude and phase, so the actual insertion loss over time will rapidly fluctuate between 0.5 and 3.5 dB.

When you have two antennas pointed in different directions, the Hybrid will always have 3.5 dB insertion loss.

Stripline Combiners, like the $100 Lindsay, will always have an insertion loss under 0.2 dB, irrespective of antenna configuration:
http://www.lindsayelec.com/antenna/commercial.catv/v-u-combiners.html

Of course, the above INSERTION LOSSES are IN ADDITION to whatever constructive and destructive cycles may be caused by summing the mis-matched phase and amplitude of the two antenna input signals....we usually call this MULTIPATH....

Two questions on the 9032. First, I've used the 9085 but never had luck with any hi vhf. Any luck for GLW65 on Ch13 with this one? Second, would he use the full wavelength of roughly 2 feet (using Ch 14 as the lowest to receive) on horizontal spacing, or do you recommend a longer distance?

The PR-9032 will perform similarly to the HD or CA-9085. I've never used a UHF antenna for channel 13 reception. It can work in good reception situations, but generally will workk poorly in difficult reception situations. You should use a UHF antenna or array to meet your UHF needs, and you can buy a nice channel 7-13 antenna cheap. I haven't checked around lately for residential grade antennas cut narrower than 7-13. If there are any and if they are cheap, a 10-13 antenna might gain a dB or two more than a 7-13 antenna of comparable boom length.

With a horizontal stack, I don't have a fixed spacing preference, since in the few instances when I have used one, I was spacing to phase cancel the single strong multipath signal, so the spacing was dependent on its phasing with respect to the desired signal.

When I stacked vertically, I did in well in the VHF highband with 1/4 wavelength spacing.

When you are behind a hill, the signal that bends over the hill is no longer in the horizontal plane, so as long as your mast is perfectly vertical, the signals will be hitting the upper elements on your multi-bay bowtie element stacks before they hit the lower ones, and therefore they wil not be completely in phase with one another.

You might do better with just a 4-bay bowtie tilted back just a little, or with a big sucker Yagi with a corner reflector, like a Winegard PR-9032. If you get an improvement with a 9032, then you might buy a second one and horizontally stack it.
Let me see....if the top of my antenna is say 60 feet lower than the crest of my backyard hill, and is about 80 feet away,
then (by Pythagorean Theorem) the distance from the top of my antenna to the crest of the hill is 100 feet.
And the distance from the bottom of my 3-foot high antenna is 101.8 feet [(63^2 + 80^2)^0.5].

A delta of 1.8 feet is a significant difference for CH 69 (wavelength = 1.2 ft) and even for the longest CH14 (wavelength = 2.1 ft).
And moving the bottom of the 3-foot antenna nearly 2 feet closer is more than "just a little" tweak....

Of course, YMMV....

Should I replace my current RG-59 cable with the new Quad Shield RG-6 cable?

My situation -> I have an attic configuration. I have two 12 feet RG-59 cables from a CM 4228 and a CM 4221 combine with a splitter in reverse into a Channel Master in line amplifier splitter. I have 4 lines (RG-59 - 50 feet) coming out of the splitter into my HDTVs and DVRs. There are two digital stations that I can not lock onto.

Will I get enhanced picture quality or will I be able to lock onto the stations (by reducing the line loss) with the new cables? Any opinions will be accepted. Thanks in advance...
Presuming the old cable is not degraded from moisture or physical damage, the difference in loss for 50-feet of RG-59 vs RG-6 could be several dB.

Using info in Belden Cable catalog, I plotted specs for various RG-6 and RG-11 cables over the UHF band (470-806 MHz),
to which I just added the most common (and lowest loss) RG-59 part number.
Note that there can be a wide variation in loss for different cable part numbers, each labeled "RG-6", from just this one high quality manufacturer.
And the Quad Shielded cable did not have the lowest loss....

There was a similiar variation in their RG-59 cable offerings.....
And each manufacturer will be somewhat different....

======================================================
WTMI??? Yes, you could save 2-3+ dB by changing 50-feet of (unknown) RG-59 to high quality RG-6...and another few tenths in the 12-foot sections.
Careful brand name shopping is advised to avoid low quality cable.
At least Google the cable part number to see if the manufacturer even claims a loss spec....

However, cable loss AFTER the Preamp (your CM Distro Amp) is of only minor significance.
The loss of sensitivity (Noise Figure) due to cable loss is REDUCED by the amount of Gain in the Preamp.
I posted some Excel spread sheets for calculating Fade Margins here:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/4364/4900.html?1135634429
The additional loss in sensitivity due to 10 dB of cable and splitter loss (on the output of the CM Distro Amp) is on the order of only a dB or so versus no loss.

So unless you suspect the cable (try a simple jumper cable first), RG-59 is "good enough" when using a Preamp.

========================================================
You could reduce insertion loss in the antenna combiner from 3.5 to 0.2 dB by using $100 Lindsay Stripline Combiner.

======================================================
Are you sure that there are no nearby (perhaps low power) TV stations that would desensitize the CM Distro Amp???
You should search a range of about 30 miles at www.fccinfo.com or www.2150.com/broadcast (check all four search boxes).

The CM7777 (if no nearby stations), the Winegard 17 dB Gain Preamps or Winegard HDP-269 VHF/UHF Preamp (best for nearby stations) with a 1:4 RF Splitter would probably be 2-3+ dB more sensitive than the CM Distro Amp.

It would help if you could post your zipcode (and preferably nearby cross streets) and perhaps even cut and paste your results from antennaweb.com.

I have tried stacking the 3021 antennas both vertically and horizontally. The problem is that I get one set of channels one day and a different set the next...

I have mounted the 2 3021's on the same mast vertically. They are currently about 8 feet apart. I have some different signal strengths than I had before. ...I will move the lower antenna up and down on the mast and see if I can get a good combination. ... I currently have the top antenna about 40 feet, but would need another 60 or 80 to see over the hill.

When you are behind a hill, the signal that bends over the hill is no longer in the horizontal plane, so as long as your mast is perfectly vertical, the signals will be hitting the upper elements on your multi-bay bowtie element stacks before they hit the lower ones, and therefore they wil not be completely in phase with one another.

You might do better with just a 4-bay bowtie tilted back just a little, or with a big sucker Yagi with a corner reflector, like a Winegard PR-9032. If you get an improvement with a 9032, then you might buy a second one and horizontally stack it.

...if the top of my antenna is say 60 feet lower than the crest of my backyard hill, and is about 80 feet away, then... the distance from the top of my antenna to the crest of the hill is 100 feet.

And the distance from the bottom of my 3-foot high antenna is 101.8 feet...

A delta of 1.8 feet is a significant difference for CH 69 (wavelength = 1.2 ft) and even for the longest CH14 (wavelength = 2.1 ft)....And moving the bottom of the 3-foot antenna nearly 2 feet closer is more than "just a little" tweak....

Of course, YMMV....


I don't see how you conclude that, "a delta of 1.8 feet is significant for channel 69". If the channel 69 wavelength is 1.2 feet, or 14 inches, then the signal wavefront hitting a lower element just 7 inches further away will be 180 degrees out of phase with the signal wavefront when it hits the upper element, resulting in theoretical total cancellation.

Assuming that, on a 4-bay bowtie, the top element is 24 inches above the bottom one, it will be 180 degrees out of phase at channel 69 if the antenna's vertical axis differs by about 16.3 degrees (ArcTan 7/24) from that of the wave plane. For channel 14, it would be 180 degrees out of phase if the vertical axis was about 30.3 degrees (ArcTan 14/24) off the wave plane.

But GLW65's vertically stacked bowtie span is not 3 feet, it is 8 feet, since he is vertically stacking two 4-bay bowties, which is a recipe for disaster. ArcTan 7"/ 96", for channel 69 is 4.2 degrees. ArcTan 14/96, for channel 14, equals about 8.3 degrees of mast tilt with respect to the propagation front to result in 180 degree phase differential. The likelihood of a hobbiest stumbling onto the most efficient mast plane, or even a decidedly more favorable one, through experimentation at these short wavelengths is not promising, and probably not as likely as winding up with an out-of-phase array that is worse than the performance he would get from any antenna that has a single, active reception element.

............... and you can buy a nice channel 7-13 antenna cheap. I haven't checked around lately for residential grade antennas cut narrower than 7-13. If there are any and if they are cheap, a 10-13 antenna might gain a dB or two more than a 7-13 antenna of comparable boom length.


Here's some info regarding high band VHF antennas and single channel VHF antennas.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/wya6713.htm
http://www.starkelectronic.com/winp12.htm

Problem channels were, and are, channel 62 analog, channel 62 digital (real channel is 44) and channel 56 digital (real channel 43). 62 analog noisy and ghost-y. Channels 56 and 62 digital suffer various degrees of disruption, esp. when the wind blows.

TV stations are all in a cluster, with a 12 degree spread, at an average distance of 14 miles. The problem channels are all on the same tower, at 16.5 miles--the furthest away. The digital ones are only 200KW.

Single-story ranch, 963 feet of elevation (ground level). No tall buildings nearby, but plenty of mature trees.

Want to have 62 analog work well for recording. Want to have the digital channels working well for the obvious reasons ;).

Upgraded 15+ year old VHF/UHF antenna to new Winegard HD7078P VHF/UHF antenna. Produced a marked improvement, but channel 56 and 62 digital remained a problem. Pointed it on the bearing to the problem stations. Channel 62 analog improved a bit more, but the digital stations (remember: On the same tower) did not improve further.

Note that both the median bearing for the entire cluster and the bearing for the problem stations each point right through a close cluster of very dense (deciduous) trees.

Seeking further improvement: Moved the antenna up three feet, re-terminated the coax (about 60 feet of Belden 9248 [specs similar to 1694A]) with Paladin compression connectors (had screw-on connectors), drove a new ground rod, bonded it to the electrical system ground rod, grounded the mast with 8 ga. solid copper, added a lightning arrestor (now I'm up to code, at least), removed the APC surge protector, split the signal with an Ideal 1GHz splitter in lieu of going through the VCR to the TV.

Channels 62 and 56 digital got worse! Much worse :mad:

On a hunch, re-pointed the antenna through a gap in the near trees, to about 155 degrees, and now 56 and 62 digital are about where they were before I raised the antenna and did my other "improvements"--maybe a bit better. Channel 62 analog, however, is much worse.

Earlier, somebody asserted that more height isn't always better, and then cited his case, where a lower height at a different location did better than the former site at a greater elevation. That was not an apples-to-apples comparison, but this certainly is.

The question now is: Where to go from here, if anywhere? I'm now regretting not having gone with a bigger Winegard HD-series antenna, but I'm loath to basically throw-away the $90 invested in the one I have. Plus: There's no guarantee that going up a couple steps, to the HD7082P, will yield any improvement at all--much less one worth the investment.

Then again: I suspect the problem is not multi-path. I suspect it's purely a case of the the 200KW signals 16.5 miles away being marginal. I suspect that when the wind blows the trees around, the signal is intermittently weakened further and that's the cause of my troubles with these two stations. I suspect that when I raised the antenna three feet, things got worse with those two stations because it was then pointing though denser foliage. But I have no way of knowing these things, as the TV has no "signal strength" or signal quality meter.

Anybody got any ideas on how I might proceed? I'm rather at a loss, at this point.

I got a chance to work some more on the antenna. I first attached one of the CM3021's to the top of the mast. The second I positioned 2 feet below the first pointing the same direction. This resulted in low signal. I then moved the lower antenna to just below the top antenna. This produces good signal (60+) on all channels except one. If I move the whole assembly vertically I can get a spot which gets all channels except 13. If I move to another spot I get all channels (including 13) but I lose 14. I cannot find a vertical placement which yields both CH13 and Ch14 reception. In either spot I get 21, 36 and 46 well. I am now at a loss as to what to do next.

GLW65,
Have you tried using just one antenna? Sorry, I don't remember and I'm too lazy to go back and read your previous posts. I've found that, most of the time, I get better reception with a single antenna than with a stack. I know stacking works well, sometimes, for multi-path rejection, but it is very difficult to get it right.

If I move the whole assembly vertically I can get a spot which gets all channels except 13. If I move to another spot I get all channels (including 13) but I lose 14. I cannot find a vertical placement which yields both CH13 and Ch14 reception. In either spot I get 21, 36 and 46 well. I am now at a loss as to what to do next.
Do you understand the difference between channels 13 and 14? They are not contiguous channels. Channel 13 is a channel band from 210Mhz to 216Mhz. Channel 14 is 470Mhz to 476Mhz. Channel 14 is about 43 channels above channel 13. They are not optimally received by the same antennas.

Likewise there's a gap between channels 6 & 7, dividing VHF-low from VHF-high, equal to about 14 channels.

Two related questions - both having to do with antenna locations in attics. I have installed a new coax RG6U from my new Plasma on the ground floor up two stories high into the attic.

1. Is there anything I need to do about grounding RE an attic installation of an OTA antenna?

2. The attic is as high as any chimney installation would be (without a lot of extra costs). Coupled with tree limb concerns, an attic installation might be my best (and most maintenance free) installation. However, how much reception does one lose in the attic? In other words, what's lost when a signal tries to penetrate a typical roof (plywood, shingles, etc.)? -- Jim F.

1. Is there anything I need to do about grounding RE an attic installation of an OTA antenna?

2. The attic is as high as any chimney installation would be (without a lot of extra costs). Coupled with tree limb concerns, an attic installation might be my best (and most maintenance free) installation. However, how much reception does one lose in the attic? In other words, what's lost when a signal tries to penetrate a typical roof (plywood, shingles, etc.)? -- Jim F.

1) You don't need to ground an indoor antenna. Grounding bleeds off static buildup caused by wind passing by the metal elements, something that shouldn't be happening in your attic.

2) Typically, about 86% of the signal is lost. The remaining signal may be sufficient, but the only way to know is to try it. Amplification is not recommended for attic installs, as they almost always make the situation worse rather than better.

I do understand that ch13 is high vhf and ch 14 is uhf and that they are separated by a considerable amount. The truth is, however, that the antenna I am using will pick up Ch13 well at on point on the mast, but not Ch14. If I move the antenna vertically a couple of fee t on the mast, I get Ch14, but loose 13. If the same antenna picks up either channel by itself, doesn't it make sense that it should pick them both up if I can find the right position.

Two related questions - both having to do with antenna locations in attics. I have installed a new coax RG6U from my new Plasma on the ground floor up two stories high into the attic.

1. Is there anything I need to do about grounding RE an attic installation of an OTA antenna?

2. The attic is as high as any chimney installation would be (without a lot of extra costs). Coupled with tree limb concerns, an attic installation might be my best (and most maintenance free) installation. However, how much reception does one lose in the attic? In other words, what's lost when a signal tries to penetrate a typical roof (plywood, shingles, etc.)? -- Jim F.
Extensive tests to measure Attic and/or Indoor Loss were referenced here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7892248&highlight=attic+loss#post7892248
Figure about 13 dB +/- 7 dB, depending on construction variables, etc...

I would recommend trying a (returnable) Preamp in an attic location before you give up and mount it on the roof.....

And the extra attic attenuation may permit the use of a Preamp which would otherwise be overloaded by "nearby" stations if mounted on the roof....

GLW65, I agree with you very much. Finding a magic location is no easy job. You may also try to move the antenna horizontally to find out what happens.


I do understand that ch13 is high vhf and ch 14 is uhf and that they are separated by a considerable amount. The truth is, however, that the antenna I am using will pick up Ch13 well at on point on the mast, but not Ch14. If I move the antenna vertically a couple of fee t on the mast, I get Ch14, but loose 13. If the same antenna picks up either channel by itself, doesn't it make sense that it should pick them both up if I can find the right position.

Upgraded 15+ year old VHF/UHF antenna to new Winegard HD7078P VHF/UHF antenna.

Seeking further improvement: .....split the signal with an Ideal 1GHz splitter in lieu of going through the VCR to the TV.

Channels 62 and 56 digital got worse! Much worse :mad:

Anybody got any ideas on how I might proceed? I'm rather at a loss, at this point.

The splitter that you added has loss. A preamp at the antenna will overcome the losses of both the splitter and the coax. I'd suggest the Winegard HDP-269.

The splitter that you added has loss.Thanks for the follow-up, Tower Guy. (And for wading through that rather lengthly exposition!) Yeah, I know. About 3.5 DB to each receiver. As an experiment, I connected the antenna directly to the TV. No difference.

A preamp at the antenna will overcome the losses of both the splitter and the coax. I'd suggest the Winegard HDP-269.I thought of that. Either that or bite the bullet and upgrade the antenna (again!) to an HD7082P (two steps up from the HD7078P I have). Not sure which, if either, will produce an improvement, but the HDP-269 is certainly the less expensive gamble, that's for sure.

I've been reading about trees and UHF. Particularly when there are close, dense trees, UHF can be a real crap shoot. I think my next experiment, which will cost me no more than a bit of time, will be to: 1. Find the bearing that yields the strongest analog signal from that same tower. (That should be relatively straight-forward.) 2. Experiment with various heights, by raising and lowering the antenna on the mast, to obtain the most interference-free digital performance. One article I read on UHF and close trees said as little a few inches in antenna elevation can mean the difference between night and day.

Then, depending on how that experiment turns out, give either the HDP-269 or HD7082P a go. Or both.

It would be nice to hear from somebody that experienced similar "close trees" problems and how they addressed it. Short of cutting down the trees, that is ;)

Problem channels were, and are, channel 62 analog, channel 62 digital (real channel is 44) and channel 56 digital (real channel 43). 62 analog noisy and ghost-y. Channels 56 and 62 digital suffer various degrees of disruption, esp. when the wind blows.

TV stations are all in a cluster, with a 12 degree spread, at an average distance of 14 miles. The problem channels are all on the same tower, at 16.5 miles--the furthest away. The digital ones are only 200KW.

Anybody got any ideas on how I might proceed? I'm rather at a loss, at this point.

You can do a much better job optimizing your UHF reception if you confine your heroic remedy to UHF components. If you really need VHF, either for some analog now, or, two and a half years from now when some of your DTV channels revert to their final assignment, then you can take those off whatever behemoth you have on your mast, but you can more effectively and more cheaply experiment with the development of a UHF only array.

What's your zip code?

You can do a much better job optimizing your UHF reception if you confine your heroic remedy to UHF components. If you really need VHF, either for some analog now, or, two and a half years from now when some of your DTV channels revert to their final assignment, then you can take those of whatever behemoth you have on your mast, but you can more effectively and more cheaply experiment with the development of a UHF only array."Heroic remedy" - LOL! :)

No doubt I could. I do want to keep VHF in the near term, if for no other reason than the Canadian station south of the border (yes, south, really). One of the problems with this, to which you've alluded, is that when I go to boost UHF performance with the antenna, I end-up carrying along a bunch of VHF "baggage" I don't actually need. Then again: Who knows what'll happen in 2-1/2 years?

In any event: I'm willing to entertain suggestions. That's why I asked :).

What's your zip code?48327. But that's a big zip code. Just the zip will give you misleading data, particularly since I'm actually in the corner of it closest to the station cluster. So here:DTV Ant. Type Call Ch. Net. City & St. Bearing Dist. Freq.
* yellow - uhf WXYZ-DT 7.1 ABC DETROIT MI 149° 12.7 41
* yellow - uhf WMYD-DT 20.1 WB DETROIT MI 141° 16.5 21
* yellow - uhf WDIV-DT 4.1 NBC DETROIT MI 139° 13.7 45
* yellow - uhf WJBK-DT 2.1 FOX DETROIT MI 145° 14.4 58
* green - uhf WWJ-DT 62.1 CBS DETROIT MI 141° 16.5 44
* green - uhf WTVS-DT 56.1 PBS DETROIT MI 141° 16.5 43
red - vhf WXYZ 7 ABC DETROIT MI 149° 12.7 7
red - uhf WWJ 62 CBS DETROIT MI 141° 16.5 62
red - uhf WKBD 50 UPN DETROIT MI 160° 10.3 50
* red - uhf WKBD-DT 50.1 UPN DETROIT MI 160° 10.3 14
red - uhf WTVS 56 PBS DETROIT MI 160° 10.3 56
red - uhf WMYD 20 WB DETROIT MI 160° 10.3 20
red - vhf WJBK 2 FOX DETROIT MI 145° 14.4 2
red - vhf WDIV 4 NBC DETROIT MI 139° 13.7 4

I've edited that down to only the ones of importance.

Note that none of the above-listed stations give me any trouble, except 62, 62.1 and 56.1. Channel 2.1 very infrequently will glitch--but generally so rarely and so briefly that most times I'm not sure I saw it and, sometimes even when I am, I'm not sure if it was me or them.

The thing that's driving me nuts is that, with the antenna at its current location and elevation, I can get 62 analog in quite nicely by aiming directly on its bearing. But if I do that, 62 and 56 digital go away almost completely. Again: They're all three on the same tower.

I should get up on the roof and take a picture of the bearing on that tower from my antenna's location.

I'm about to dump cable and go OTA only. I'll be replacing one of my TV's with a digital TV, but I still will have 2 analog TVs (at least until 2009). I live only 6 miles from the location from which all Boston stations broadcast. I want to get a good UHF antenna to reach for far-away UHF stations. I don't care about VHF stations other than those 6 miles away. VHF channels are being abandoned in three years so I don't want to waste my time getting a VHF antenna if I don't need it. My question is ... Will just-about-any UHF antenna be able to get those 1000 kW VHF stations only 6 miles away (over flat terrain)?

Best bet is any UHF outdoor antenna. 6 mi is close enough.

It will work as long as you have an ATSC tuner (either built-in or external).

I'm about to dump cable and go OTA only. I'll be replacing one of my TV's with a digital TV, but I still will have 2 analog TVs (at least until 2009). I live only 6 miles from the location from which all Boston stations broadcast. I want to get a good UHF antenna to reach for far-away UHF stations. I don't care about VHF stations other than those 6 miles away. VHF channels are being abandoned in three years so I don't want to waste my time getting a VHF antenna if I don't need it. My question is ... Will just-about-any UHF antenna be able to get those 1000 kW VHF stations only 6 miles away (over flat terrain)?
Being line-of-sight only 6 miles away, just-about-any UHF antenna will do the local job, but your biggest problem is avoiding overload....esp. when trying to receive the distant stations. A high gain antenna pointed toward the nearby towers may be okay--and if not you might want to add a Variable RF Attenuator (R-S 15-678) on your HDTV's input.

When you point the high gain antenna to distant stations, your HDTV's tuner will be desensitized by the intermod products from the nearby towers. These can be minimized by tweaking the rotator position so that a NULL is pointed towards the nearby towers. The Variable RF Attenuator can also reduce the intermod products, so tweak it to optimize the sensitivity for each channel.
A high gain antenna (e.g. CM4228, 91XG, etc) with deep sidelobe nulls is needed to suppress the local signals. And obviously a Preamp will make things worse...

Good luck, reception within 6 miles can also be plagued with multipath from all of the nearby reflections---and signal leakage into your downlead needs to be minimized by using double or quad shielded RG-6.

It will work as long as you have an ATSC tuner (either built-in or external). The new TV will have an ATSC tuner. I'm concerned about the old NTSC TV's. If I put a UHF-only antenna on the roof, will I be able to pick up the NTSC-analog-VHF stations that are only 6 miles away. I don't want to waste money on a VHF antenna if it'll be obsolete in 30 months. Also, the VHF portion is a lot larger (and uglier) than a cute li'l Yagi or 4-bay.

If I put a UHF-only antenna on the roof, will I be able to pick up the NTSC-analog-VHF stations that are only 6 miles away. I don't want to waste money on a VHF antenna if it'll be obsolete in 30 months. Also, the VHF portion is a lot larger (and uglier) than a cute li'l Yagi or 4-bay.

You'll probably have to reaim the antenna for best results, but you should get a viewable picture. I have a 91XG and get decent hi-UHF reception from much further than 6 miles, but lo-VHF is hard to gauge, since I'm over 40 miles from the nearest.

At that distance and for that length of time, you could buy a pair of rabbit ears and stick them on your roof. Sure, they'll rust, but even if you went through two or three sets, you wouldn't be out much money.

I don't want to waste money on a VHF antenna if it'll be obsolete in 30 months.
VHF channels are being abandoned in three years so I don't want to waste my time getting a VHF antenna if I don't need it.The VHF channels are not going to be "abandonded" in 2-1/2 years. What's being re-assigned is the UHF portion currently occupied by channels 52-69. Please see How do current TV broadcasts and DTV compare to each other? (http://www.avsforum.com/hdtvfaq/HDTV-FAQ.htm#How%20do%20current%20TV%20broadcasts%20and%20DTV%20c ompare%20to%20each%20other?) and
Are DTV signals broadcast on special frequencies? (http://www.avsforum.com/hdtvfaq/HDTV-FAQ.htm#Are%20DTV%20signals%20broadcast%20on%20special%20fre quencies?)

The VHF channels are not going to be "abandonded" in 2-1/2 years. What's being re-assigned is the UHF portion currently occupied by channels 52-69. Please see (link omitted) Let me rephrase. Our local VHF stations are being abandoned. Local channels 2,4,5, 6, and 10 have announced their intention of moving to UHF. Only channels 7 and 12 will use VHF for digital after the switchover. VHF low (2-6) won't have anybody. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Now, I don't care about channel 12 as we already have a CBS affiliate on channel 30. What I'm asking is that if I get a good UHF antenna to reach those faraway UHF stations, will that UHF antenna pickup channel 7 which is only 6 miles away? I don't wanna get a bulky VHF antenna if I don't have to.

Here is an update on my ability to get CH13 and CH14 to come in at the same time. I repositioned one of the CM3021 antennas on the mast so it received CH14 (plus 21,36,38,46). It does not get CH13. Since 13 is high VHF, I positioned the other CM3021 about 3 feet to the side and about six feet lower than the other antenna using a separate mast. I did have both antennas fed into a splitter and fed into the combined input of my CM7777 preamp. With the second antenna optimized to CH13, I separated the inputs and changed the setting on the CM7777 with the CH13 receiving CM3021 going into the VHF input. I now get all channels with a 60+ signal strength. Even so, I get some drop outs on the UHF channels. I still have the close trees and the hill to contend with. I will try this for a while, but may later combine the two CM3021's to make a CM4228 equivalent and use it for the UHF signals. Then, I will buy another antenna to get Ch13. How much gain do you suspect I might get in going from a CM3021 to a CM4228? Any suggestions on how to combine the 2 CM3021's into a 4228? Should I join them with metal connectors or non conductive connectors?

What I'm asking is that if I get a good UHF antenna to reach those faraway UHF stations, will that UHF antenna pickup channel 7 which is only 6 miles away?Probably. I have a CM 4228 to receive UHF from 70 miles away, and I have a VHF on channel 9 that is 30 miles away, and at a 90 degree angle to the distant one. I can receive channel 9 just fine. I used to have a RS U-75R (model?) UHF antenna that would pick up the channel 9 if I pointed it right at the tower. YMMV :)

What I'm asking is that if I get a good UHF antenna to reach those faraway UHF stations, will that UHF antenna pickup channel 7 which is only 6 miles away? I don't wanna get a bulky VHF antenna if I don't have to.

It's only 6 miles away--it's gonna leak in no matter WHAT you do!!!!!

If you are looking for something more quantitative, Kerry Cozad (Dielectric Co, the guys who make DTV Xmit antennas) performed actual on-air measurements of VHF antenna gain for several UHF-only antennas, found here:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/4364/3476.html?1126051755

Hi –
I have been lurking in this forum for about a week now and I have to say there is a wealth of information here and in the Chicago OTA thread. I am in the first stages of looking into getting a HDTV, and would like some advice regarding an antenna and placement. From AntennaWeb, I have gotten the following:

yellow-uhf__WTTW-DT_11.1__PBS__CHICAGO__IL__14°__10.7__47
yellow-uhf__WPWR-DT_50.1__UPN__GARY_____IN__14°__10.7__51
yellow-uhf__WFLD-DT__32.1__FOX__CHICAGO__IL__14°__10.7__31
yellow-uhf__WLS-DT____7.1__ABC__CHICAGO__IL__14°__10.7__52
yellow-uhf__WMAQ-DT__5.1__NBC__CHICAGO__IL__14°__10.7__29
yellow-uhf__WGN-DT____9.1__WB__CHICAGO__IL__14°__10.7__19
green-uhf__WJYS-DT__36.1__REL_HAMMOND__IN__14°__10.7__36
red-vhf____WBBM-DT__2.1__CBS__CHICAGO__IL__16°__12.2__3
red-uhf____WCIU-DT__26.1__IND__CHICAGO__IL__14°__10.7__27

I am looking at the Winegard HD7210P Ghost Killer. There is what looks like a previous antenna mount on a dormer on the east side of the house. What worries me is a significant pine tree twenty feet to the north, directly in line with the mount, probably fifteen feet wide at the height of the antenna. Is it worth even attempting to install it there?

Other options would probably avoid the tree, but lack either height or accessibility. I have a small one-car attached garage with a flat roof, but I don’t think I could get the antenna much more than 13’ above ground level, which would place it below the roofline of the neighbor’s house to the north. There is a peak towards the front of the house by the chimney, but the pitch of the roof is extremely steep and the installation would prove difficult.

We are going to have a new roof installed within the month, doing a complete tear-off. Is a tripod mount on the center peak (not as steep), avoiding the tree, a good option? I would guess that they could insure the integrity of the roof, installing it at the best possible stage.

One item to note: We are at approximately 650 ft elevation, within a couple blocks of the highest point in the city.

Thanks in advance for any and all advice

GLW65:

When it comes to reception of high band VHF, two CM3021 antennas do not equal one CM4228. If you look at the picture of the 4228 at http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/4228manual.pdf, you will see a rectangular support structure. It is that support structure which to a significant extent accounts for the VHF capability of the 4228.

What worries me is a significant pine tree twenty feet to the north, directly in line with the mount, probably fifteen feet wide at the height of the antenna. Is it worth even attempting to install it there?

Sure is. I doubt you'd have any reception troubles due to the tree at your distance.

The antenna you've picked looks okay, but as you well know from the Chicago thread, WBBM is going to be tricky.

Sure is. I doubt you'd have any reception troubles due to the tree at your distance.

The antenna you've picked looks okay, but as you well know from the Chicago thread, WBBM is going to be tricky.

Thanks for the info...I am not 100% sold on the Winegard and am open to other ideas. I picked it due to availability at TriState Electronics, which is not far from where I work. Do you have another suggestion in a similar price range? ($50-$60).

I have looked at the Folded Dipole link by Rick Matthews and thought an attic installation on the north side of the house would help with WBBM, if necessary.

Do you have another suggestion in a similar price range? ($50-$60).

Given that you need VHF hi and lo, and UHF, there's probably nothing else in that price range that would be better. You'd have to go larger (and therefore more expensive) to get significantly better results.

Given that you need VHF hi and lo, and UHF, there's probably nothing else in that price range that would be better. You'd have to go larger (and therefore more expensive) to get significantly better results.

I would consider moving up to the Winegard HD7080P for a few bucks more if it would significantly improve reception of vhf-lo, but it is not that much larger, seemingly just more elements. I am not knowledgable about what specifications would help the most in that area. The HD7082P is a bit more than what I want to spend, and seems a bit much for my needs.

Probably. I have a CM 4228 to receive UHF from 70 miles away, and I have a VHF on channel 9 that is 30 miles away, and at a 90 degree angle to the distant one. I can receive channel 9 just fine. I used to have a RS U-75R (model?) UHF antenna that would pick up the channel 9 if I pointed it right at the tower. YMMV :)

Are you using a preamp with the CM 4228?

I am 25-40 miles from my local (Greensboro,NC) towers all on a heading of 56-66 degrees. In the opposite direction, 235-257 degrees, are the Charlotte stations at 60 miles. I would like pull in both sets of stations.

Do you think I need a rotator if I use the CM 4221 or 4228? Or would I need a preamp instead?

Thanks for helping an OTA newbie.

I live about 3 miles outside of NYC in NJ. I have Directv installing their OTA tommorrow on my roof. Should I be considering another route? How difficult is it to pick up stations listed as blue on antennaweb.org? Based on your expert opinions which of the following channels will the Directv antenna pick up, and is there another solution which does not involve an extremly large or expensive antennas which would provide a significant increase in reception?

Here is the info provided by antennaweb.

DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
* yellow - uhf WNJN-DT 51.1 PBS MONTCLAIR NJ 325° 11.2 51
* yellow - uhf WNJU-DT 36 TEL LINDEN NJ 168° 3.4 36
* yellow - uhf WPXN-DT 31.1 i NEW YORK NY 168° 3.4 30
* yellow - uhf WWOR-DT 9.1 UPN SECAUCUS NJ 114° 2.9 38
* yellow - uhf WNYW-DT 5.1 FOX NEW YORK NY 114° 2.9 44
* yellow - uhf WPIX-DT 11.1 WB NEW YORK NY 114° 2.9 33
* yellow - uhf WXTV-DT 41.1 UNI PATERSON NJ 114° 2.9 40
* yellow - uhf WNET-DT 13.1 PBS NEWARK NJ 114° 2.9 61
* yellow - uhf WABC-DT 7.1 ABC NEW YORK NY 103° 2.8 45
* yellow - uhf WCBS-DT 2.1 CBS NEW YORK NY 114° 2.9 56
* green - uhf WNBC-DT 4.1 NBC NEW YORK NY 99° 3.1 28
* green - uhf WFUT-DT 68.1 TFA NEWARK NJ 103° 2.8 53
* red - uhf WNYE-DT 25.1 IND NEW YORK NY 157° 5.7 24
* red - uhf WMBC-DT 63.1 IND NEWTON NJ 315° 33.8 18
* blue - uhf WNJT-DT 43.1 PBS TRENTON NJ 239° 47.1 43

trees are not always obstacles. My installer was worried about a tree (it was winter) but i said, nope, that's the best signal and put it there. I'll worry about it later if it goes out.

Well into summer now and zero problems. The tree is well over 100ft high and very wide. BUT fortunately it's 200ft away. I know there is a diagram somewhere about how uhf travels but cant' find it. Good luck!

................ I know there is a diagram somewhere about how uhf travels but cant' find it. Good luck!

I think this is what you were looking for..........http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html

Steve

We are going to have a new roof installed within the month, doing a complete tear-off. Is a tripod mount on the center peak (not as steep), avoiding the tree, a good option? I would guess that they could insure the integrity of the roof, installing it at the best possible stage.

One item to note: We are at approximately 650 ft elevation, within a couple blocks of the highest point in the city.

You aren't very far away from the towers (10-12 miles) and have lots of height to begin with....
Have you considered mounting it in the attic so it doesn't shoot through the trees???
No climbing, no weather, no maintenance....

Are you using a preamp with the CM 4228?Yes, I am.

I am 25-40 miles from my local (Greensboro,NC) towers all on a heading of 56-66 degrees. In the opposite direction, 235-257 degrees, are the Charlotte stations at 60 miles. I would like pull in both sets of stations.Might work if you aimed the antenna towards Charlotte. Can't say for sure 'till you try. If you remove the screen on the back of either the 4221 or 4228, they become essentially bi-directional. But the stations from one city could interfere with ones from the other if they are close in frequency.

Do you think I need a rotator if I use the CM 4221 or 4228? Or would I need a preamp instead?Rotators are good for a number of reasons, but I never installed mine after I saw how good the results were without it. As for the pre-amp, I'd recommend you try without one first and if that doesn't work, then add the amp. All things considered, you are better off without a pre-amp, if you don't really need one.

You aren't very far away from the towers (10-12 miles) and have lots of height to begin with....
Have you considered mounting it in the attic so it doesn't shoot through the trees???
No climbing, no weather, no maintenance....

I think my elevation number is a bit misleading. The highest point in the city that I mentioned is only maybe 100 ft higher than the lowest point, at the shore of Lake Michigan. All I meant by it was that there was not much between us and the towers (except the previously discussed tree). I guess that is why people from Wisconsin call us flatlanders, usually with an expletive in front of it...

With all of the problems I have heard about WBBM-DT ( low-vhf) I don't think an attic mount will probably work. I have a couple pictures I may try to attach, but I don't think I have enough posts.

Thanks for the info...I am not 100% sold on the Winegard and am open to other ideas. I picked it due to availability at TriState Electronics, which is not far from where I work. Do you have another suggestion in a similar price range? ($50-$60).

I have looked at the Folded Dipole link by Rick Matthews and thought an attic installation on the north side of the house would help with WBBM, if necessary.
Foamy
I use the HD7210 in my attic for both analog and digital reception at about 10 miles from the antenna farm in Houston. We have a ch-2 analog and a ch-5 digital that we receive with it. The reason I chose the 7210 over the rest was simply because the Lo-V elements allowed me to navigate around the attic supports better than most other antennas, thus I could place it where I got the best signal rather than having to just put it where I could fit it. (One of the few cases where less is more.)

If I had my antenna mounted outside, I'd probably use a CM5646 "Super-V" antenna instead. It does slightly better on both Hi-V and Lo-V than the 7210; UHF is too close to close to call. It usually does better with the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) too, due to the V configuration having less width, thus appearing to be a smaller antenna than the 7210.

Bob Chase
KHCW-DT

trees are not always obstacles. My installer was worried about a tree (it was winter) but i said, nope, that's the best signal and put it there. I'll worry about it later if it goes out.

Well into summer now and zero problems. The tree is well over 100ft high and very wide. BUT fortunately it's 200ft away. I know there is a diagram somewhere about how uhf travels but cant' find it. Good luck!

I think I might have a bit more of a problem, as the tree is very close. Looking at the above link (Thanks goldrich!) makes me think I should consider a different mount. I think I can now post a picture as this is my fifth post...I hope they show up..

The mount is on the right edge of the dormer, with the tree directly to the north. Pointing the antenna to the recommended 14° puts it straight through the tree. The pix turned out a bit small, but I think the ground-view shows it better.


I use the HD7210 in my attic for both analog and digital reception at about 10 miles from the antenna farm in Houston. We have a ch-2 analog and a ch-5 digital that we receive with it. The reason I chose the 7210 over the rest was simply because the Lo-V elements allowed me to navigate around the attic supports better than most other antennas, thus I could place it where I got the best signal rather than having to just put it where I could fit it. (One of the few cases where less is more.)


Using our attic would be a short term solution, as we will probably be finishing it in a year or so. I did notice another part of the roof that may work ok, but I will have to take another look over the weekend. I may look into the ChannelMaster you mentioned, if I can find a place where I can pick it up and not have to ship.

thanks to all for your advice

I think my elevation number is a bit misleading. The highest point in the city that I mentioned is only maybe 100 ft higher than the lowest point, at the shore of Lake Michigan. All I meant by it was that there was not much between us and the towers (except the previously discussed tree). I guess that is why people from Wisconsin call us flatlanders, usually with an expletive in front of it...

With all of the problems I have heard about WBBM-DT ( low-vhf) I don't think an attic mount will probably work. I have a couple pictures I may try to attach, but I don't think I have enough posts.
WBBM-DT is only 12 miles away, and although it doesn't have lots of power, it has enough to provide calculated Class B coverage out to about 50 miles for roof mounted antennas.

Can you receive a GOOD signal for Analog WBBM on CH2 using rabbit ears indoors ...or in attic????
If so, WBBM-DT on CH3 should work well with same antenna arrangement.

You could probably get by with a UHF antenna (attic or roof) which will have at least some "gain" for CH3 (esp CM4228), although you could also try a pair of rabbit ears or a very "low profile" folded dipole in the attic and use a conveniently located UHF/VHF combiner.
It's at least worth a trial run using CH2 before you start trying different roof mount locations....esp. since lo-band VHF antennas can be monsters....

BTW: Although a big tree can block the direct path, multipath reflections off of your neighbors will also bounce signals into your antenna....today's so-called 5th Gen receivers are very good at coherently combining these signals.

I think this is what you were looking for..........http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html

Steve

thanks, and as an aside, it's finally nice to have independent confirmation that higher isn't always better :)

Can you receive a GOOD signal for Analog WBBM on CH2 using rabbit ears indoors ...or in attic????
If so, WBBM-DT on CH3 should work well with same antenna arrangement.

You could probably get by with a UHF antenna (attic or roof) which will have at least some "gain" for CH3 (esp CM4228), although you could also try a pair of rabbit ears or a very "low profile" folded dipole in the attic and use a conveniently located UHF/VHF combiner.
It's at least worth a trial run using CH2 before you start trying different roof mount locations....esp. since lo-band VHF antennas can be monsters....

BTW: Although a big tree can block the direct path, multipath reflections off of your neighbors will also bounce signals into your antenna....today's so-called 5th Gen receivers are very good at coherently combining these signals.

I think I will try the channel 2 analog test with a set of rabbit ears, just to get an idea. I am going to investigate a new possible roof mount location this weekend, as I noticed something I had not before.

In regards to the 5th gen tuners, is there any way to tell what chip is in what tv? I had not considered that variable in regards to making a choice. I thought I saw on other forums that it is an LG chipset. I would assume the newest Philips LCD models would have it, considering their relationship with LG.

I know this is not the correct forum for this, so if anyone can point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it.

thanks, and as an aside, it's finally nice to have independent confirmation that higher isn't always better :)Somehow I just knew that was coming ;).

For the record: I never asserted that "higher is always better." The point I was trying to make was that your particular experience was not a valid demonstration that it wasn't. You cannot change a number of variables all at once, point to a change in the outcome, and then assume it was one particular variable out of all that were changed that was solely responsible for the changed results.

I made a number of changes to my antenna installation last weekend. Amongst them was raising the antenna height by 3 feet. The things I was looking to improve actually got worse. I suspect antenna height is the culprit. But until I do further experimentation, changing variables one-by-one, thus elminating the influence of the other variables, I won't know that for sure.

thanks, and as an aside, it's finally nice to have independent confirmation that higher isn't always better :)

I think the problem is that everyone wants hard-and-fast rules for reception, and there just aren't any. There are general principles, but there are hundreds of variables involved in reception and they interact in a lot of goofy ways.

If it makes you feel better, lower is better than higher if the higher location is inside a metal, lead-lined box.

There is also a limit to higher is better, generally accepted at be about 12' above the highest obstacle between you and the transmitting antenna. Above that point, benefits tend to disappear for relatively minor changes.

I think I will try the channel 2 analog test with a set of rabbit ears, just to get an idea. I am going to investigate a new possible roof mount location this weekend, as I noticed something I had not before.

In regards to the 5th gen tuners, is there any way to tell what chip is in what tv? I had not considered that variable in regards to making a choice. I thought I saw on other forums that it is an LG chipset. I would assume the newest Philips LCD models would have it, considering their relationship with LG.

I know this is not the correct forum for this, so if anyone can point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it.
ALL of the chip manufacturers are making chips that are head and shoulders better than the limited performance chips that they made two years ago. These new chips are finally getting into new HDTVs, USB Tuners and PCI Card Tuners.

Unfortunately we haven't seen any OTA STBs or DVRs with the new chips.
Although I don't yet know what is used in the OTA tuners in the new TIVO Series 3.....
Good News: Samsung announced a new OTA STB will be available "this fall":
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6354840.html
Which begs the question as to which of their HDTVs include new chips, and whether from Samsung, LG or ATI....

The Zenith 5th Gen chip gets a lot of coverage, but the ATI Theater chip is roughly equal and is probably in more new HDTVs and the new Samsung chip is probably in some receivers, but it is very difficult to determine which has what.... Other chip manufacturers have new and presumably improved chips, but they haven't released test data, so they remain incognito...

In the fol thread you will see that most LG HDTVs presumably include the new LG 5th Gen chip---but other manufacturers are also using LG and other 5th Gen chips as well...

Until someone actually opens up the set and LOOKS for the ATSC Decoder chip, there is no easy way to confirm for sure....unless you're a knowledgeable service tech....maybe you can call tech support and hopefully get an understandable answer....

Here is the 5th Gen Chip thread, where I posted links to lab tests performed on PROTOTYPE Lynx/Micronas, LG/Zenith, and Samsung 5th Gen chips....ATI comparison tests and an FCC sponsored comparison test:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7024579&#post7024579
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6339487&#post6339487
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6059066&#post6059066
Of course note that these tests are on prototypes vice later production equipment.
The latest tested Samsung chip had the best performance, but there has been lots of time for the Micronas and LG to improve their chips since they were last tested....

Hey all,

I just put a RS VU-90 XR in my attic. VHF looks great. Analog UHF looks great. Digital channels are another question; I can't lock most channels. I live in Redmond, WA (suburb of Seattle) and am 15 miles away from the transmitters I want to receive. My D* receiver tells me that I'm getting a ~15 signal on the major networks. The question is, will an amplifier help? I have a 50ft run from the attic to the wiring closet and then point-to-point runs to each room.

If an amp isn't the way to go, can somebody suggest a good combo antenna (CM 3018?) or a good antenna 'system' (antennas, combiners, amps, etc.) to get VHF (for my guest bedrooms) and good digital UHF?

Thanks!
BoB

Hey all,

I just put a RS VU-90 XR in my attic. VHF looks great. Analog UHF looks great. Digital channels are another question; I can't lock most channels. I live in Redmond, WA (suburb of Seattle) and am 15 miles away from the transmitters I want to receive. My D* receiver tells me that I'm getting a ~15 signal on the major networks. The question is, will an amplifier help? I have a 50ft run from the attic to the wiring closet and then point-to-point runs to each room.

If an amp isn't the way to go, can somebody suggest a good combo antenna (CM 3018?) or a good antenna 'system' (antennas, combiners, amps, etc.) to get VHF (for my guest bedrooms) and good digital UHF?

Thanks!
BoB

Hi Bob,

Well, 50' of RG-6 won't cause much damage to the signal...but splitting the signal 3 or 4 ways certainly will. A VU-90 should be good enough with a good amp,
especially if you are getting non-"ghosting" pictures on the analog.

Before you do that, see if the analog and digital stations are all on the same towers. Many times they are, but sometimes they are built a considerably different direction than the analog. In Chicago, WJYS-TV 62's tower is just off
I-80, but their DTV tower is on Sears.

Good News: Samsung announced a new OTA STB will be available "this fall":
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6354840.html
Which begs the question as to which of their HDTVs include new chips, and whether from Samsung, LG or ATI....

I'm waiting on this one, personally, as the Canadian tests of the Samsung showed it to be dramatically better with weak signals, to within just a few dB of the noise floor. Now they just need to integrate a hard drive and a few DVR features and they could make a mint.

Hi Bob,

Well, 50' of RG-6 won't cause much damage to the signal...but splitting the signal 3 or 4 ways certainly will. A VU-90 should be good enough with a good amp,
especially if you are getting non-"ghosting" pictures on the analog.

Before you do that, see if the analog and digital stations are all on the same towers. Many times they are, but sometimes they are built a considerably different direction than the analog. In Chicago, WJYS-TV 62's tower is just off
I-80, but their DTV tower is on Sears.

Thanks for the input. Yesterday, I tried going to Home Despot and getting an amp (10dB - 25dB). At anything over about 15dB, I was getting very visible ghosting on the analog channels. I backed it off until that went away, then looked at digital. I was now getting about 60 on the D* signal meter. I went up in the attic and turned the antenna. It's now pointing significantly off the heading that it should be at, but I'm getting mid 80s on the signal meter now. I think I'm getting a reflection off my neighbor's roof. Oh well, as long as I have a good picture (and I do), I'm happy.

Thanks to all for this great thread!
BoB

I am trying to tune my Panasonic TH-42PX60U plasma to receive two HD OTA channels since live in one of many areas where CBS HD and FOX HD are not available to cable customers due to a rights fee dispute between my cable provider, COX and the joint owners of the our local CBS and FOX stations.

Not quite sure how to phrase this question - but here goes. How strong must the OTA digital signal be for the build in tuner to work? In other words, I can tune the analog channel, 12 for example, perfectly. However, the digital channel is "Not Available". I guess that means that the digital signal is not as strong or something. Is there a comparison between analog strength and digital strength needed for an HDTV?

I know this all sounds very uneducated. But everyone keeps telling me I should be able to pick up the OTA HDTV stations I want (only 23 miles away) and I cannot even get a sniff.

James,
I am in Mystic, CT. I receive both Ch 12 and Ch 64 with a small amount of snow. The digital WPRI is reliable about 90 percent of the time and WNAC-DT about 80 percent. You might have a set up problem, you need to set the digital tuner for over the air signals and do a scan. Then try tuning in channel 12 or channel 13. Sometimes WPRI's remapping doesn't seem to work. Also if you see ghosts in the analog signal it may be difficult to get the digital signal. A rotator here was a necessity and will make reception a lot easier in many locations. What antenna set up are you using? John

Not quite sure how to phrase this question - but here goes. How strong must the OTA digital signal be for the build in tuner to work? In other words, I can tune the analog channel, 12 for example, perfectly. However, the digital channel is "Not Available"

Here's some pictures for comparison purposes: http://www.geocities.com/figbert/8vsb.html

However, you say you get analog channel 12 perfectly. It is likely your digital stations are on UHF (actual channels 14 and above.) Comparing reception of channel 12 to channel 14 is apples to oranges. You need to compare reception of analog UHF stations to the digital ones you want to receive.

WPRI-DT is on channel 13 and uses the same xmit antenna as channel 12 so in this case a comparison is pretty valid. John

I think I have finally got my OTA set up figured out pretty good. I live about 17 miles from the towers in the tallahassee market. I have really tall trees in the yard so multi-path interference can be a problem. I use zenith silver sensor hooked to a small 12 db amp i got from walmart. I also have a standard pair of rabbit ears I bought at Radio Shack and is laid on my big curtain bar with the rabbit ears laid out completely horizontally (like an antenna element). This is done to pick up WTWC-DT which is NBC HD on channel 2. Both of the antennas are then hooked to a special combiner than combines one low VHF signal and one UHF signal. I use this special combiner (which i got at Radio Shack part# 15-2586) to combine the signals from both anteannas while at the same time, filter out the signals they both pick up but aren't supposed to because I found a standard combiner will cause those signals to interfere with each other and make it impossible to pick up the channel. This is especially true with channel 2. The setup works well, I get CBS and ABC with the silver sensor (and soon FOX as well), while the rabbitt ears gets NBC. The only thing that still interferes with the low vhf station is when lightning is in the area it will momentarily mess up the signal. Other than that, it works well.

Hey folks,

I'm in the midst of re-working my RF distro to include an ATSC OTA antenna feed.

I'd like to know if you think my plan will work.

MY EQUIPMENT
2 door cameras with built-in modulators (channels 8 - 125).

1 modulator (7-69) that I use for distributing my AV Receiver's output to the smaller TVs in the house.

1 ChannelVision 3x8 Coax distro panel with bi-directional IR support

1 OTA antenna

2 4x1 splitters

MY FLOW
Right now the OTA antenna feeds the 2 splitters which, in turn, feed the off-air tuners in several Satellite receivers.

The DoorCams and Modulator feed into a 3x1 splitter (using it in reverse) and then into the 3x8 distro panel.

This lets me get my doorcams and AV receiver anywhere in the house.

MY NEW PLAN
I had this thought that I could combine the doorcams, the modulator, and the ATSC feed into one cable and run that to 3x8 distro panel. I thought this might allow me to get pass-through of the analog doorcam signals on my satellite receivers. Then it occurred to me that the tuners on the sat receiver are ATSC only...so the only real benefit is that I can distribute the same coax signal everywhere and let the end device (TV, Sat Tuner, whatever) decide how to use it.

MY QUESTIONS
I did a dry run of this and lost most of the ATSC signals. Of course, I didn't bother to change the current doorcam channels (15 and 20). The results were pretty nasty. Lost most if not all of my OTA channels. The splitter was the same one I had been using which is old and doesn't even have a frequency range specified on it.

1. What's the best tool for combining these signals?
2. Will a simple 4-way splitter/combiner with 1GHz range be okay?
3. Is the 7dB insertion loss a big deal?
4. Do you have any other tips or suggestions for making locally modulated NTSC signals play nice with a live OTA ATSC feed?

Thanks in advance!

MY QUESTIONS
1. What's the best tool for combining these signals?
2. Will a simple 4-way splitter/combiner with 1GHz range be okay?
3. Is the 7dB insertion loss a big deal?
4. Do you have any other tips or suggestions for making locally modulated NTSC signals play nice with a live OTA ATSC feed?
I have something similar, and I don't have any problems. My 1st thought would be to make sure that the OTA signals are amplified prior to using a 4-way splitter. I have a 3 channel and 2 single channel modulators and an OTA feeding into a CV 3 x 12(actually it's now a 3 x 16) distribution panel, and all works fine. I do use channels in the 60's for my modulators to keep them away from the OTA. So that could be a problem for you. And, of course, all of the modulators send out an amplified signal, and I do have a preamp on my OTA. So, all signals going in are amplified.
....jc

I am trying to tune my Panasonic TH-42PX60U plasma to receive two HD OTA channels since live in one of many areas where CBS HD and FOX HD are not available to cable customers due to a rights fee dispute between my cable provider, COX and the joint owners of the our local CBS and FOX stations.

Not quite sure how to phrase this question - but here goes. How strong must the OTA digital signal be for the build in tuner to work? In other words, I can tune the analog channel, 12 for example, perfectly. However, the digital channel is "Not Available". I guess that means that the digital signal is not as strong or something. Is there a comparison between analog strength and digital strength needed for an HDTV?

I know this all sounds very uneducated. But everyone keeps telling me I should be able to pick up the OTA HDTV stations I want (only 23 miles away) and I cannot even get a sniff.
Digital stations are usually on UHF freqs, whereas CH12 is VHF--which makes a big difference in propagation/cable loss characteristics, big difference in loss through building materials and each requires an appropriate antenna.

Q1: What antenna are you using?
Q2: Is it indoors, attic mount or roof top? (indoor probably won't cut it for UHF)
Q3: What direction(s) is it pointed? (did you check www.antennaweb.org yet?)
Q4: What obstacles are between it and desired stations? (trees, buildings, hills)
Q5: How is the antenna wired to your HDTV? (twin-lead or coax? how many RF splitters?
Q6: Where are you located (at least zipcode, preferably to nearby cross streets)

www.antennaweb.org should give you a general idea on how well each station should be received and which general type of antenna/preamp is recommended.

He seems to live in the 02852 -02854 zip code region. The CBS digital is channel 13 and the FOX digital is channel 54. Probably half of the path between his location and the xmitters is over water. Unless he is right behind a hill, rabbit ears can likely get CBS. John

Thanks to CTDISH and HOLL_ANDS for your input. Here's an update of my status which is instructional for newbies - this is, frankly, somewhat embarrasing. :o

I have had a Panasonic 42PX60U (built in tuner) for only one week (love it). I originally could not get any digital channels, only analog when I connected an OTA antenna. What I did wrong initially is NOT let the TV scan for channels. For example, I thought that what I had to do to view WPRI HD channel 12.1 was enter 12-1 on my remote and hit OK. But the TV does not seem to know what that is until it first scans and finds that channel first (because the frequency assignment is something different) - as you have pointed out. That sounds silly on my part, but this technique is not addressed in the owner's manual. Once I tried to let the TV scan for ALL channels, it "married up" or found the digital channels just fine. Now it knows what 12.1 is, for example.

This is an exercise that's not real obvious to new owners like myself (this is my first non-analog TV in owning TVs for 40 years). Going a step farther, there were some HD channels that were clearly within range of me that I did not get at first - notably FOX HD. I adjusted the antenna alignment towards the transmitter and re-scanned (i.e. let the TV re-find channels) and, bingo, got the channels I wanted.

I am using a "Terk HDTVo" amplfied antenna (an impatient, Best Buy off-the--shelf purchase), attic mounted (until I can get the hardware assembled to get it mounted outside). I live 45 feet about sea level with the antenna, in the attic, 25 feet about ground - 40' RG6U unspliced, unsplit run to a small amplifier just before the TV. CBS HD 12.1 rock solid, FOX 64.1 is shaky in the daytime, OK at night. Sight line to transmitter through dense collection of oak trees.

James,
Welcome to the world of remapping. Don't feel bad about the initial glitch. Everyone I know around here, when they first receive digital signals thinks renaming the channel number is stupid. I got my first digital receiver in 2000 and the first channel I received for any lenght of time was CBS from NY. I spent 10 or 15 min. turning the the VHF antenna rotator to try to peak it, befor going to the internet to look up the actual channel of 56.
John

Thanks to CTDISH and HOLL_ANDS for your input. Here's an update of my status which is instructional for newbies - this is, frankly, somewhat embarrasing. :o

I have had a Panasonic 42PX60U (built in tuner) for only one week (love it). I originally could not get any digital channels, only analog when I connected an OTA antenna. What I did wrong initially is NOT let the TV scan for channels. For example, I thought that what I had to do to view WPRI HD channel 12.1 was enter 12-1 on my remote and hit OK. But the TV does not seem to know what that is until it first scans and finds that channel first (because the frequency assignment is something different) - as you have pointed out. That sounds silly on my part, but this technique is not addressed in the owner's manual. Once I tried to let the TV scan for ALL channels, it "married up" or found the digital channels just fine. Now it knows what 12.1 is, for example.

I wouldn't blame the Panasonic Operating Instructions. Page 13 is clearly labeled (in huge font) "FIRST TIME SETUP"..."Turn TV Power On, "Select Your Language", "Adjust the Clock" and finally "Auto Channel Setup".

I would blame whomever thought up the problematic virtual channel remapping scheme that nearly EVERYONE has problems with...

And maybe a little impatience....you were very close....
If you had entered the REAL CH13.1 (vice VIRTUAL 12.1) DTV channel number, the HDTV would have found WPRI-DT, decoded the PSIP to find the virtual channel numbers and would then probably replace the REAL channel number with the VIRTUAL channel number.

So did you get everything you wanted to receive???

So did you get everything you wanted to receive???After some very sweaty time in the attic and some trial and error rescanning, we're in business. Thanks.

I need some help. Looking to purchace a VHF antenna and wanted to know what is the best available to get. I need it for only VHF not UHF.

I need some help. Looking to purchace a VHF antenna and wanted to know what is the best available to get. I need it for only VHF not UHF.

Here's one choice: http://www.starkelectronic.com/wnpr5030.htm

You might get slightly better results by buying an HD8200P and using a CM#0549 to combine it with whatever you're using for UHF.

If you had entered the REAL CH13.1 (vice VIRTUAL 12.1) DTV channel number, the HDTV would have found WPRI-DT, decoded the PSIP to find the virtual channel numbers and would then probably replace the REAL channel number with the VIRTUAL channel number.



Many tuners won't do this and I know my Panny 50U won't. Neither will the 4th gen LG. Most won't in my experience. The only tuner I've had that will do this consistently is the LG LST 3510-A (3rd gen LG). Even after a channel scan is done often you can't access by the actual channel with most I've used (must use the virtual).

The 4th gen LG has a "manual channel add" that will allow it but it requires accessing a submenu, you can't simply enter the channel directly. Some won't even allow manual channel adding at all.

I think it stinks to design it this way.

I've only used DirecTV OTA digital tuners and the ones I had do it as well as others I've read about. It's good to know not all tuners do.

Terk TV32 for $80 at circuit city

works pretty good considering it's in my attic, but with poor reception of WPLG (signal strength of 62) and can't lock in WSVN (signal strength of 42). all other channels work perfectly.

I know that attic mounted antenna isn't the best for reception, but my association frowns upon it. Will a simple signal booster help me out or am I doomed?

btw... I'm about 30miles out from the farm

I've only used DirecTV OTA digital tuners and the ones I had do it as well as others I've read about. It's good to know not all tuners do.

I have both the HTL-HD and the H10 and neither allow direct access via the actual channel number. The H10 won't allow manual addition of channels at all. You have to enter alternate zip codes on the H10 to get it to save channels at more than one bearing. I'm not sure about the H20. Which D* receivers are you referring to?

The 4th gen LG has a "manual channel add" that will allow it but it requires accessing a submenu, you can't simply enter the channel directly. Some won't even allow manual channel adding at all.

I think it stinks to design it this way.
And, of course, it won't add a channel that it doesn't 'find'. What sucks, is without a channel being 'added', you can't view the 'signal strength'. Which means that you can't view the strength while you are trying to tune the antenna, if you couldn't successfully add the channel. Faulty logic.
....jc

Several months ago, someone here commented that a parabolic dish antenna would provide the best gain
for fringe-area reception. I'm 84 miles from my most-watched stations.

I was intrigued by this idea and since I have 10.5' satellite dish that I rarely use anymore, I thought
I would try to make a parabolic terrestial antenna.

After tilting the dish to an upright position, I removed the feedhorn and replaced it with the back 1/3
of an XG-91 UHF antenna coupled with a Winegard 8275 preamp.

It worked like a champ and provides a much better signal than a stand-alone XG-91. It is much more
directional so its off-axis performance is worse than the XG-91. I also made a dipole for high VHF from
a couple of strips of aluminum and wired it into the XG-91 box with twinlead. I now get a perfect reception on VHF channels 7 and
above.

To see the attached photos, please click on the links below:

And, of course, it won't add a channel that it doesn't 'find'. What sucks, is without a channel being 'added', you can't view the 'signal strength'. Which means that you can't view the strength while you are trying to tune the antenna, if you couldn't successfully add the channel. Faulty logic.
....jcWell, digital channels aren't really where the TV says they are, anyway. Even if they were: Signal "strength" meters aren't really signal strength meters, they're more signal quality meters. On analog, strength usually equates with quality, so it mostly works out. Digital is a whole different beast. I don't know as you could actually do the "turn the antenna and watch the meter" kind of a thing with digital.

Well, digital channels aren't really where the TV says they are, anyway. Even if they were: Signal "strength" meters aren't really signal strength meters, they're more signal quality meters. On analog, strength usually equates with quality, so it mostly works out. Digital is a whole different beast. I don't know as you could actually do the "turn the antenna and watch the meter" kind of a thing with digital.

I do it all the time. I have a Zenith HDR230 and a Zenith TV, both with fourth-generation chipsets. I tune to the real channel (e.g. 35-1 instead of the virtual 11-1 for KARE-DT in Minneapolis) and then bring up the signal meter. Then I spin the antenna until I get the best signal on the meter. It actually registers on the meter long before it gets a lock which implies a calculated net "signal strength" - a combination of signal quality and actual dBmv.

If I were to design a meter for a STB, I'd actually make it a two-stage meter. When there was no digital lock, I'd want it to display dB. Once there was a digital lock, I'd want it to display error rates only. That way, for finding a weak signal, I could get as close as I could, but once I locked, I could emphasize signal quality - by trying to find the peak correct data location.

I do it all the time.Fascinating. Y'learn something new every day.

sregener,

I noticed in the link you posted above, that you installed a 55 foot tower. About how much does that cost? I've got a CM 4228, along with a RS VU-190 for VHF channels, both connected to a 7777 preamp. I live a good 70 miles from the nearest "Big 4" digital transmitters. The CBS affiliate for my market is probably around 75 miles, and they broadcast on RF 7 for digital. I really have had more luck with the 4228 in receiving that (a few times, on good nights) than I have with the 190. I've barely locked on to it once, and it was very pixelated. According to the coverage map for KNOE-DT (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1043245.html), I am right outside the coverage area. I would love to get a tower, but would like to try everything else possible, before doing so. I have both antennas about 25 feet off the ground (10 feet above roofline). I also can receive KTBS-DT - ABC out of Shreveport on occasion, although I am right out of the coverage area (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT615663.html). It seems my strongest digital is KMSS, the FOX affiliate from Shreveport, I get them after 6:30 PM every evening..and I am definitely outside their coverage area (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT421284.html).

What do you reccomend I do about my situation? I realize I live far out, but you seemed to at least have some luck, even before your tower installation.

Many tuners won't do this and I know my Panny 50U won't. Neither will the 4th gen LG. Most won't in my experience. The only tuner I've had that will do this consistently is the LG LST 3510-A (3rd gen LG). Even after a channel scan is done often you can't access by the actual channel with most I've used (must use the virtual).

The 4th gen LG has a "manual channel add" that will allow it but it requires accessing a submenu, you can't simply enter the channel directly. Some won't even allow manual channel adding at all.

I think it stinks to design it this way.
Either prior to or after making a channel scan, my son's Sony GrandWega (in L.A.) and my Sylvania 6900DTE OTA STB (in San Diego) will still accept a tuning command for the REAL channel and will replace it with the VIRTUAL channel number, except for those few stations where the PSIP doesn't makes "sense".

Could be I'm biased by the cheaper designs in the D* receivers. I also tried the Walmart USDigital box and it didn't allow direct real/actual channel access either as I recall.

The ProBrand 3150 Plus at Circuit City allows direct channel access, along with a one-touch signal meter. You can then choose to add the channel by simply pushing a button on the remote. All in all, I love mine, though the signal meter will sometimes stick on 49% when the signal is actually just below the threshold to lock.

I noticed in the link you posted above, that you installed a 55 foot tower. About how much does that cost?

What do you reccomend I do about my situation? I realize I live far out, but you seemed to at least have some luck, even before your tower installation.

I don't know exactly what it cost. The antenna dealer was removing it for another customer and basically took it down on his property and put it up on mine. I traded up on the antenna, and he charged me $900 installed, $800 if I dug the hole myself (which I didn't.) I know new setups were going for about $1700 a few years back.

For an outdoor install for UHF, I'd get an AntennasDirect 91XG. If it doesn't get the signal, then almost nothing on the market will. If you want to do everything you can, there have been posts about a very low noise (like 0.5db) preamp available from Europe that runs about $150. For your VHF station, you might do best to get a Blonder-Tongue cut-to-channel antenna for channel 7. They're expensive, but there's nothing better. A cheaper alternative is the Winegard HD8200P or the almost as good YA-1713.

You don't say what kind of tuner you've got, but that can make all the difference in the world. The new Samsung chipset looks promising, but the LG 4th generation (and probably 5th as well) chipset is the best that's out there right now.

Hope this helps.

I've got an LG 32LC2D 32" HDTV with the built in tuner... I've noticed it's quite a bit more sensitive than other built in tuners. I also have the ProBrand 3150 Plus, which is pretty sensitive, also. I alternate between the two.

So the 91 XG is a better performer than the 4228? I got the 4228 due to all the positive reviews on the forum. I have been looking at purchasing the 91 XG, though.
I also looked at the Blonder Tounge. I would get one of those, but KNOE is switching back to their analog channel 8, once analog is shut down. I'm curious, would a CM 3020 be a better performer than the VU-190? I'm sure the Channel Master is a lot more durable.

Also, about the tower, what kind of places install and take down towers? There is one listing under antennas in the yellow pages, but it doesnt mention anything about what services they offer.

What do you reccomend I do about my situation? I realize I live far out, but you seemed to at least have some luck, even before your tower installation.

If you need channels 7-69 then first pic with DAT 75's on top. The XG 91's could substitute for the DAT 75's and provide equivalent performance.

If you need channels 7-40 or so then second pic with Triax Unix 100 Band A's on top.

The bottom VHF antennae are Antennacraft Y10 7-13's.

Wow! That's a complex antenna system you've got. And it stays in place with just that roof eave mount? They must be stronger than I thought!

I was comparing the HD8200P and the CM 3671 earlier. The 3671 is 67.00 cheaper, I like the fact that one doesn't need a matching transformer with the HD8200P. How would these two compare with each other? I'm trying to be as effective and pennywise as possible, and I've probably gone over budget already :rolleyes:

So the 91 XG is a better performer than the 4228? I got the 4228 due to all the positive reviews on the forum. I have been looking at purchasing the 91 XG, though.

I'm curious, would a CM 3020 be a better performer than the VU-190? I'm sure the Channel Master is a lot more durable.

Also, about the tower, what kind of places install and take down towers? There is one listing under antennas in the yellow pages, but it doesnt mention anything about what services they offer.

For an outdoor install, I think the 91XG is better. But probably not a lot. However, if you're using it with a rotor, you need a rotor bearing or other support for the mast above the rotor.

Antennas of similar length perform about the same. You mentioned the 3671, and it's probably about the same as the HD8200P, though I haven't read any conclusive reviews.

Most antenna installers should do towers. If they don't, they should know who would.

Wow! That's a complex antenna system you've got. And it stays in place with just that roof eave mount? They must be stronger than I thought!

:

No, it's a ground mount, see first pic below.

Re: thrust bearing. To avoid needing a guyed thrust bearing, you must keep the lever arm above the rotator as short as possible. See the second pic.

Someone reccommended I get a thrust bearing for my rotor, as I have the 4228 on it, and it is heavy. Where exactly can I get one?

Well today (since it's a bit cooler, not by much) I'm going to get another tripod, and move the VU-190 on to it, which will be a few feet away from the 4228. I wanted to get the two apart, as I thought it may be causing interference, and plus there is a good opening with not as many trees, where that location is. I moved my entire setup to the highest peak of my roof, which should have put the height at 25-27 feet, and it helps with reception from Shreveport. The down side is, I'm aiming the VHF antenna right into a big tree in the new location. That won't be the case if I can move it. If that doesn't prove very successful, then I guess it'll be time to invest in a 3671, and find a tower :cool:

KeithAR2002,

Maybe you should try a quad-stack, like MAX HD's in Greensburg, IN.
http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/NewTowerAntennas/ This setup is very directional but also provides a lot of gain.

My antenna setup is very similar to cpcat. I've downloaded a picture of it. It's on a steel pipe mast with a hinged base so it can be lowered quite easily. It was designed by MAX HD, Greg. I'm 3-5 miles from the Indy antenna farm, but it also provides me an opportunity to DX other DTV stations. This setup works great for channels 7-69. Here's the description.............

Triax Unix 100-UHF(2- ant. hor. stacked) @ 30 ft. w/CM 7775 preamp; Antennacraft high band VHF @ 27 ft. w/Motorola Signal Booster.

Steve

Both of those setups look quite advanced...I'd probably have to find someone to do that kind of job... Yours isn't on a tower, so would having a setup like that be a better alternative to having a tower?

Also, really liked your DTV DX photos.... I've started a collection myself, but I've only logged stations in the 150-175 mile range.

Here is a couple photos of my current setup, in case anyone was interested. I don't like the idea of the 190 being on the same mast as the 4228, for sure...

Both of those setups look quite advanced...I'd probably have to find someone to do that kind of job... Yours isn't on a tower, so would having a setup like that be a better alternative to having a tower?

.


Hard to answer that. A tower just really wasn't an option for me and additonally I live on a hill with no real obstructions around me. For me, a better antenna was probably more important.

If you have obstructions around you that you can get above with a tower that may be preferrable.

Re: the CM4228 on the rotator. It's a great antenna but it is heavy and hard on a rotator. Something like the xg91 would give you similar performance but you could mount it so the total lever arm is much shorter i.e. just long enough so the reflector is above the top of the rotator housing.

There's no problem with having the vhf below on the same mast. That's how mine was set up initiallly. 60 inches separation should do fine for high band vhf (7-13) and you can probably cheat a little even down to 48 inches. Technically that's not enough separation for low band (2-6) but it still seems to work ok in my experience.

Here's one of my earlier setup.

My neighborhood has a lot of trees around, that a 40 foot tower could most likely get above. The thing is, I need to find an installer, which Im sure there are some around, as I see some fairly new tower installations around town. And it seem like a big undertaking without having someone professional. In any case, The 4228 probably wouldn't fair well on a tower due to the weight, so if I was to get a tower, the XG91 would be a perfect candidate.

Actually, there is a house across the street that has a 50 foot tower up, the occupants moved a few years ago, I know them quite well and they still own the house, I thought about contacting them about the one there, but it's rusted, and has vines growing on it, so I'm sure it would be difficult to take apart. I guess I'll start calling some television service shops in the area, just to see if maybe they can tell me where to find an installer.

I think the separation between the 190 and 4228 is less than 48 inches....which could be trouble.

Just an update, I moved my VHF antenna back to where I originally had it, and managed to pull in KNOE last night...could have been due to the weather, so I'll have to see again tonight...I also started receiving my new local PBS station, that I haven't been able to receieve since I moved it from that location. So far, so good, but I may end up getting a rotator, and a higher gain antenna like the 3671, since the PBS transmitter and the direction of KNOE are about 50 degrees or so apart. I get PBS with the antenna pointed toward Monroe, but the signal strength isn't all that great.

Can anyone recommend the best way for me to get broadcast hdtv without cable or satellite?

Can anyone recommend the best way for me to get broadcast hdtv without cable or satellite?

With an antenna and a digital tuner.

If you want more specifics, you'll have to be more specific: where are you located (zip code)? Can you put an antenna up outside? Are you on a hill, in a valley? Are you surrounded by tall buildings or trees?

Can anyone recommend the best way for me to get broadcast hdtv without cable or satellite?

OTA (over the air) digital TV including HDTV requires an ATSC tuner. This may already be incorporated into your TV if it is new or alternatively you may need to purchase an add-on set top box (STB). For info on various choices, visit the HDTV reception hardware section of AVS.

The signal for OTA (over the air) digital TV gets to your tuner in the traditional fashion via antenna/coax cable/antenna preamp. How much antenna, whether indoor or outdoor, and the need for a preamp depends on your location and distance to your local stations. The signals are broadcast over uhf/vhf just as they have been in the past and the technology is identical all the way up to the point of the HDTV tuner which is the only real difference.

Your local stations are currently broadcasting both analog (NTSC) and digital TV (ATSC) simultaneously as part of the so-called "digital transition". Last I heard, analog will shut down some time in 2009.

For a general idea of what antenna setup to use, go to http://www.antennaweb.org

Also, you can go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and put in your lat/longitude in decimal form for bearings/distances to your local stations. A link to find your magnetic variation from true north is also provided there.

Source to find your lat/longitude: http://terraserver.microsoft.com/

Also visit the OTA reception FAQ: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957

Antennas, preamps, etc. thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=546066

That should get you started. Once armed with the basic info, any further questions can be posted in the reception thread at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8211150#post8211150


To KEN H:
Maybe this reply could be copied and placed at the beginning of this thread?

My Winegard Square Shooter is great for urban settings and it looks good too. I get excellent reception.

Hey guys,

I moved into a new home several months ago, and my older antenna (Terk TV5 indoor) no longer picks up the channels that it used to. I'm looking for a replacement indoor antenna for Fishers, IN 46038. Would anyone be willing and able to help me find a replacement? Thanks.

I was checking out just this situation for my bro-in-law on NW side of Indy. I'd consider outdoor or attic installation of a comparatively powerful and unobtrusive cm4221 pointed at the towers in Indy for a fixed set-up. If you wanted the signals from Bloomington, a larger antenna and rotator might be called for.

Hi, I need an over-the-air small multidirectional antenna to recieve local hd broadcasts. I think i need it to be VHF/UHF but i dont know very much about them so im not sure. i also need one thats fairly cheap and it has to be indoors. I don't really have any tall buildings or trees very close to me either and i live in a 1 story house. If anyone has any more info for me it would be appreciated. Thanks.

I live in Davie, Florida

and incase you need to know, this is the tv im using:

and i also have a surround sound system that i want to use with it, here it is:

well nevermind about the tv and surround sound, it wont let me post links yet. Hopefully you guys dont need them

What we need is your zip.

Or, you can enter it yourself at antennaweb.org

I'm for sure not one of the resident experts but you are either 7 miles to 12 miles from the transmission towers. Next closest is about 35 miles. If you just want the close in channels I would recommend the Silver Sensor.

What do you regular guru's think?

He does have one vhf channel in the group but at 7 to 12 miles the Silver Sensor would still work, wouldn't it?????



edit for stupid spelling mistake

yea i already did the antenna web thing and these are the results:



DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment

yellow - vhf WPLG 10 ABC MIAMI FL
147° 12.4 10
* yellow - vhf WPLG-DT 10.1 ABC MIAMI FL
147° 12.4 9
* yellow - uhf WPPB-DT 44 IND BOCA RATON FL TBD 134° 12.7 44
* yellow - uhf WPXM-DT 35.1 i MIAMI FL
139° 12.1 26

yellow - uhf WSCV 51 TEL FORT LAUDERDALE FL
139° 12.1 51
* yellow - uhf WSCV-DT 51.1 TEL FORT LAUDERDALE FL
139° 12.1 52

yellow - vhf WSVN 7 FOX MIAMI FL
148° 12.5 7
* yellow - vhf WSVN-DT 7.1 FOX MIAMI FL
148° 12.5 8
* yellow - uhf WTVJ-DT 6.1 NBC MIAMI FL
149° 11.9 31

yellow - uhf WLRN 17 PBS MIAMI FL
149° 12.8 17
* yellow - uhf WLRN-DT 17.1 PBS MIAMI FL
141° 12.3 20

yellow - uhf WLTV 23 UNI MIAMI FL
149° 11.9 23
* yellow - uhf WLTV-DT 23.1 UNI MIAMI FL
149° 11.9 24

yellow - vhf WFOR 4 CBS MIAMI FL
149° 11.9 4
* yellow - uhf WFOR-DT 4.1 CBS MIAMI FL
149° 11.9 22

yellow - uhf WBFS 33 UPN MIAMI FL
147° 12.5 33
* yellow - uhf WBFS-DT 33.1 UPN MIAMI FL
147° 12.4 32

yellow - uhf WAMI 69 TFA HOLLYWOOD FL
147° 12.5 69
* yellow - uhf WAMI-DT 69.1 TFA HOLLYWOOD FL
139° 12.1 47

yellow - uhf WBZL 39 WB MIAMI FL
149° 11.9 39
* yellow - uhf WBZL-DT 39.1 WB MIAMI FL
149° 11.9 19
* yellow - uhf WHDT-DT 44 IND MIAMI FL
146° 12.2 44

yellow - uhf WHFT 45 TBN MIAMI FL
134° 12.7 45
* yellow - uhf WPBT-DT 2.1 PBS MIAMI FL
149° 12.8 18
* yellow - uhf WPTV-DT 5.1 NBC WEST PALM BEACH FL
17° 34.0 55

yellow - uhf WXEL 42 PBS WEST PALM BEACH FL
14° 32.8 42
* yellow - uhf WXEL-DT 42.1 PBS WEST PALM BEACH FL
14° 32.8 27

yellow - uhf WFLX 29 FOX WEST PALM BEACH FL
14° 32.8 29
* yellow - uhf WFLX-DT 29.1 FOX WEST PALM BEACH FL
14° 32.8 28
* green - uhf WPXP-DT 67.1 i LAKE WORTH FL
18° 33.9 36

green - uhf WPPB 63 IND BOCA RATON FL
78° 10.5 63

green - uhf WFUN-CA 48 HSN MIAMI, ETC. FL
147° 12.4 48

green - vhf WPBT 2 PBS MIAMI FL
149° 12.8 2

lt green - vhf WTVJ 6 NBC MIAMI FL
197° 40.2 6
* lt green - uhf WHFT-DT 46.1 TBN MIAMI FL
134° 12.7 46

lt green - uhf WGEN-LP 57 SPA MIAMI FL
197° 40.2 57

lt green - vhf WPEC 12 CBS WEST PALM BEACH FL
18° 34.0 12

lt green - vhf WPTV 5 NBC WEST PALM BEACH FL
17° 34.0 5
* red - uhf WFGC-DT 49 CTN PALM BEACH FL FCC Ext 18° 34.0 49
* red - vhf WPEC-DT 12.1 CBS WEST PALM BEACH FL
18° 34.0 13

red - uhf WPXM 35 i MIAMI FL
182° 29.3 35

blue - uhf WJAN-CA 41 IND MIAMI FL
198° 23.9 41

blue - uhf WIMP-CA 25 BOX MIAMI FL
164° 24.9 25

blue - uhf WSBS-CA 21 SPA MIAMI, ETC. FL
163° 24.8 21

blue - uhf WPXP 67 i LAKE WORTH FL
14° 45.9 67

blue - uhf WFGC 61 CTN PALM BEACH FL
14° 45.9 61

blue - uhf WDLP-CA 21 SPA POMPANO BEACH FL
65° 17.1 21

violet - uhf WTCN-CA 19 IND PALM BEACH FL
13° 64.0 19

violet - uhf WTCE 21 TBN FORT PIERCE FL
3° 91.6 21

violet - uhf WWHB-CA 48 AZA STUART FL
13° 64.0 48

violet - uhf WTVX 34 UPN FORT PIERCE FL
2° 70.0 34

violet - uhf WPBF 25 ABC TEQUESTA FL
1° 70.0 25

violet - uhf WWJV-LP 53 TFA JUPITER FL
23° 50.3 53

violet - uhf WBPX-LP 31 i WEST PALM BEACH FL
23° 50.3 31

violet - uhf WBBH 20 NBC FORT MYERS FL
304° 101.5 20

violet - uhf WFTX 36 FOX CAPE CORAL FL
302° 102.5 36

violet - uhf WGCU 30 PBS FORT MYERS FL
304° 101.0 30

violet - vhf WINK 11 CBS FORT MYERS FL
303° 100.5 11

violet - uhf WZVN 26 ABC NAPLES FL
290° 83.3 26

ok that kinda got messed up but hopefully u can understand it. My zip code is 33325. and also, it looks like 2 digital channels in the yellow are vhf. and i want both of those channels so i kinda need vhf/uhf. so what antenna do u recommend now?

My zip code is 33325. and also, it looks like 2 digital channels in the yellow are vhf. and i want both of those channels so i kinda need vhf/uhf. so what antenna do u recommend now?

At 12 miles, the Silver Sensor is the way to go, even for hi-VHF (channels 7-13.)

At 12 miles, the Silver Sensor is the way to go, even for hi-VHF (channels 7-13.)

wait, so your saying the silver sensor can get vhf channels 7-13 aswell? How is that possible if its only for uhf? Because if it can get those then it will be perfect for me. but if not, how do you think this (http://www.pcconnection.com/ProductDetail?sku=6200249&SourceID=k22350) one is?

[QUOTE=epauladams] If you just want the close in channels I would recommend the Silver Sensor.

Agreed. Silver Sensor for indoor, DB2 for indoor or outdoor. Both are UHF, will pick up digital VHF 8 and 9 at your range. First, try regular rabbit ears with UHF loop. You may be surprised at the digital stations it can pull in.

[QUOTE=epauladams] If you just want the close in channels I would recommend the Silver Sensor.

Agreed. Silver Sensor for indoor, DB2 for indoor or outdoor. Both are UHF, will pick up digital VHF 8 and 9 at your range. First, try regular rabbit ears with UHF loop. You may be surprised at the digital stations it can pull in.


but i dont need channels 8 and 9, I need channels 10.1 and 7.1. Unless you mean the frequencies, in which case, yes 8 and 9 are for those channels.

I thought about getting the Silver Sensor for when Im out of town, and carrying my "Vacation" 19" Polaroid HDTV for HD. (I dont think it would be practical for me to haul my LG 32" to a hotel)... I've found that those rabbit ears with the fine tuning dials don't work too well for digital. Are there any big box stores (Best Buy, CC) that carry the SS? I just dont feel like ordering it online.

but i dont need channels 8 and 9, I need channels 10.1 and 7.1. Unless you mean the frequencies, in which case, yes 8 and 9 are for those channels.

10.1 and 7.1 are the virtual channels for the analog channels. The FCC required stations to add the virtual channel info into PSIP information, so it wouldn't confuse consumers.

For example, the local NBC affiliate here is analog channel 10, and digital channel 27. It confused me at first, I didn't understand why I had to tune to a UHF channel. And when I turned to 27, it remapped as 10-1. IOW, the only thing that matters is what the real frequency is, in my case, channel 27. Many people make the mistake in getting a VHF antenna when they really need a UHF antenna, and vise versa...due to the confusion.

I actually like the fact that the stations re-map, now :)

wait, so your saying the silver sensor can get vhf channels 7-13 aswell? How is that possible if its only for uhf? Because if it can get those then it will be perfect for me. but if not, how do you think this (http://www.pcconnection.com/ProductDetail?sku=6200249&SourceID=k22350) one is?

The Terk HDTVi that you linked is also a fine choice. Either should work for you.

Antennas are just hunks of metal. They pick up *every* frequency, but they are best at picking up the range they are designed for. All UHF antennas pick up some hi-VHF signal, usually more than enough for digital reception inside of 20 miles.

Ok, thanks for all the help guys. I think I'm going to get the TERK HDTVi just to be safe. But my last question is, how do I know which way to point the antenna (compass orientation). I want it around the 134-149 range, so how do I know which direction that is in. Thanks.

vonshu,

0 degrees is north, 90 degrees is east and 180 degrees is south. So 134-149 would be southeast. I hope that helps.

Steve

Ok, here is my antenna info for where I live, will a Silver Sensor Indoor Antenna work?

yellow - uhf WMMP-DT 36.1 UPN CHARLESTON SC 245° 6.5 35
* yellow - uhf WTAT-DT 24.1 FOX CHARLESTON SC 245° 6.5 40
* yellow - uhf WCBD-DT 2.1 NBC CHARLESTON SC 182° 8.1 50
* yellow - uhf WCSC-DT 5.1 CBS CHARLESTON SC 94° 12.1 47
* yellow - uhf WITV-DT 49.1 PBS CHARLESTON SC 94° 12.1 49
* red - uhf WCIV-DT 4.1 ABC CHARLESTON SC 94° 12.1 34
Note:

If so, can someone provide brief info on any setup required?

With a fairly flat terrain here in the Indy area for fairly good line of sight reception, I've experimented with the Silver Sensor in the 35-40 mile range. I've been able to receive most of the full power/high tower (for good line of sight signal) stations, but even those were VERY sensitive to antenna placement. If I moved the antenna even a few inches, I could either find the signal or I could completely lose it. Or even when the signal looked fine, sometimes I could lose the signal by walking around the room in front of the antenna.

One of my tests at 38 miles distant from most stations, I used a very short piece of RG-6 coaxial cable (about 4 ft.) between the SS and the receiver for very little line loss. Another time I tried a longer piece of coax (about 12 ft.) along with a Motorola Signal Booster to amplify the signal, and got slightly better results.

In most cases, it is tough to get reliable reception with a small indoor antenna beyond 30 to 40 miles, but YMMV (your mileage may vary). But I guess you'll never know until you try. A lot of reception reports are based on trial and error. Also, DTV tuners are not all created equal as I've discovered after testing several of them over the past five years. Good luck.

Steve

goldrich, is the Silver Sensor sold at Circuit City still? I remember seeing them a while back, but havent looked lately. I'd like to experiment with one, as it sounds like one of the best digital indoor antennas around.

BTW, excellent DTV DX photos! Seeing your album motivated me to post my DTV results, as well :) Did you have an LG tuner, or LG television? Because some of the PSIP info looks similar to mine.

Keith, according to this post http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=711469 the Silver Sensor is available at CC. I bought mine online about a year ago.

You've done a nice job of putting up your DTV pics, and great job of catching the Houston DTVs at over 300 miles. It appears you're in a sweet spot for DXing. I guess I'm doing okay considering I have to contend with so much strong RF, as I'm just 3-5 miles from most of the Indy towers.

Yes, I own the LG LST-3100A STB. I thought the same thing while looking at your pics. Also, I own the Radio Shack closeout STB, the Accurian. The PSIP channel banner on it is virtually identical to your ProBrand. I believe I read that the RS Accurian was made by ProBrand. Currently my favorite DTV DXing STB is the RCA ATSC11 (2003 model) because of its very sensitive tuner and what I call "DXer friendly" features. I picked it up on Ebay.

Steve

I'm probably in a good spot, due to there being only one transmitter here... and it's 25 miles away. The rest are in the 70-80 mile range. It's unfortunate that I can't get reliable HD from my location (except at night)...but it makes me appreciate HD that much more! And I like the challenges of DXing.

Wow, I looked at that RCA model, and it's expensive on ebay! I might try it later on, but 474.00 is a pretty penny! It really must have been an excellent product. I like the ProBrand that I have, but I find that sometimes it has a difficult time deciding if a channel is analog or digital. I can use the LG tuner, and it'll pick up a stations right away, but not with the ProBrand..same goes for the LG though, I can get one signal with the ProBrand and nothing with the LG. I end up just alternating between the two.

Keith, I know what you mean by alternating between receivers when DXing. I find I do that, too. Most stations decode easier with the RCA STB, but occasionally the LG will decode some ahead of the RCA. Also, I have the Humax HFA-100, which has a great tuner, but DXing with it is very difficult. But if I force it to decode a station I know is available, it will sometimes decode ahead of any of my other digital receivers. It can be a toss up.

BTW, I did not spend that much for the RCA ATSC11 on Ebay. It was a different seller and I got it for a little over $200, and it was a new one. A few weeks ago there were some used ones available that went for around $85. They were banged up a little, but a DXer here in Indy bought one and it works great. On Ebay, it's all in the timing. :-)

Steve

Yeah, all the boexs on ebay were $474.00..but there were only thre or four of them.

I have the US Digital box, box it's not nearly as good as I thought. I think it suffers from multipath problems. One thing I do like about it is the program guide, channel guide, etc is well set-up and easy to get to. I only use this box when I'm out of town, though. I've been having problems with the USD box accepting just regular A/V inputs. When I hook it up to a regular TV, nothing happens. When I hook it up to an HD compatible TV, it works. Very odd... and it just started a couple weeks ago.

I just wanted to thank everyone here for their input. I have been able to get a consistent signal on WBBM-DT (low VHF channel 3) using the folded dipole (http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html) recommended by several posters. I was not able to find twin-lead anywhere, so I used 16 gauge wire, some cable clips, and a two four-foot strips of plywood. I have placed the dipole in the attic, wiring it to RG-6 using a 300 - 75 ohm transformer. Initially, it worked fine on the floor of the living room, but my wife was not very pleased... ;-)

I placed a simple VHF/UHF coupler from Radio Shack on the coaxial input of the HDTV, and used rabbit ears with a UHF loop for the rest of the stations, which are all UHF. My location helps, as I am only 12 miles from the Chicago transmitters.

I still plan on installing a Winegard 7210 on the roof fairly soon, as a couple of the UHF stations are a bit weak, but I at least know that I can add the dipole via a join-tenna if necessary. Warren Electronics seems to be the only outlet for one that will join/trap channel three, but hopefully, it will not be necessary.

The newest 5th Gen LG Chipset (in a 37" LG LC2D) also seems to work as advertised, as I have not had any multipath issues (except for the occasional airplane on approach to Midway)

Posting on this forum and lurking in the Chicago thread gave me more than enough information to get this done at fairly little cost. Thanks again for all the input!

I purchased one of the used RCA ATSC11 tuners on ebay. Technically it works fine, but I have one problem which I can't seem to figure out. I can't manually add channels to the memory. The unit will auto scan and pick up all channel with the antenna at one position, but when you change the position to add additional stations into memory, it drops the previous channels.(it does this intentionallly as you have to confirm this erasure before the scan.) This is pretty annoying. It's hard to believe that the tuner was designed this way.

Anyone have any thoughts. Would a multi-directional antenna help?

The unit will auto scan and pick up all channel with the antenna at one position, but when you change the position to add additional stations into memory, it drops the previous channels.(it does this intentionallly as you have to confirm this erasure before the scan.) This is pretty annoying. It's hard to believe that the tuner was designed this way.

Anyone have any thoughts. Would a multi-directional antenna help?

It does appear that this is how the ATSC11 was designed. (Nobody uses rotors anymore, right? That's so... quaint.)

Multidirectional antennas typically do a poor job with digital reception, but you're certainly free to try.

I take it manual tuning is not acceptable to you, or isn't an option with the 11?

It does appear that this is how the ATSC11 was designed. (Nobody uses rotors anymore, right? That's so... quaint.)

Multidirectional antennas typically do a poor job with digital reception, but you're certainly free to try.

I take it manual tuning is not acceptable to you, or isn't an option with the 11?


Manual input does not seem to be an option. There is nothing in the menu other than auto scan and just using the remote to select a channel and then hitting the add/delete button won't do anything. I have to change the rotor direction in some cases anyway but to have to go thru autoscan each time is riduclous. The engineers/programmers who design these things must not use them or mgmt. is trying to save $.30/unit. It just doesn't make any "cents" to me.

If you point an antenna in each direction and couple them through a splitter, receivers will usually perceive each channel during a channel scan, even if it can no longer reliably process them. Unfortunately, this is easier for me to do, since I have more toys at my disposal than you do.

I'm not familiar with that model of receiver. Can you manually select a real channel that is not in the guide, using the remote and either the "." or "-"? With HR10s, which are controlled by DirecTV software, the autoscan can only check for channels within a zip code, but we can then directly enter a channel, and if we instruct the DVR to record it, it then forces it into the guide. I don't know what back-door remedies might be available for your tuner.

What's your zip code? If one market is closer than another, you may get away with using a cheaper, possibly indoor antenna to temporarily point at the closer stations, which you would combine with the better, rooftop antenna pointed at the weaker ones.

If you point an antenna in each direction and couple them through a splitter, receivers will usually perceive each channel during a channel scan, even if it can no longer reliably process them. Unfortunately, this is easier for me to do, since I have more toys at my disposal than you do.

I'm not familiar with that model of receiver. Can you manually select a real channel that is not in the guide, using the remote and either the "." or "-"? With HR10s, which are controlled by DirecTV software, the autoscan can only check for channels within a zip code, but we can then directly enter a channel, and if we instruct the DVR to record it, it then forces it into the guide. I don't know what back-door remedies might be available for your tuner.

What's your zip code? If one market is closer than another, you may get away with using a cheaper, possibly indoor antenna to temporarily point at the closer stations, which you would combine with the better, rooftop antenna pointed at the weaker ones.


I cannot find a way to "force" a manual entry into the memory. Why they delete previously saved channels when you do a new scan is baffling to me especially when there is no manual "backdoor". To have to wait the 3-5 minutes for a new scan when changing the rotor is annoying. I must say tho that I am somewhat of a glutten with the channels. I am at about 3000 ft. in SW Virginia and can receive the Charlotte, W/S G'boro, High Point markets in NC and the Roanoke,Lynchburg market in Va.

I do have access to a second rooftop antenna and had thought about using both of them at the same time to try and lock as many channels into memory as possible. Does a splitter "run" both directions, combining both signals into one? I also have two signal amplifiers. Should I amplify each signal before coupling or after they are combined?

Thanx for your advise.

1) Does a splitter "run" both directions, combining both signals into one? I also have two signal amplifiers.

2) Should I amplify each signal before coupling or after they are combined?


1) Yes.

2) Makes no difference.

Should I amplify each signal before coupling or after they are combined?

Thanx for your advise.

It depends. If you are combining two identical antennas i.e. antenna stacking you would definitely want to combine before amplification. If you are combining two dissimilar signals, i.e. uhf and vhf, amplifying before the diplexer is more ideal if your setup allows.

I cannot find a way to "force" a manual entry into the memory. Why they delete previously saved channels when you do a new scan is baffling to me especially when there is no manual "backdoor".

I own the RCA ATSC11, and personally, I love this unit, because as a human, I have some control over this STB, which is not allowed by most of the newer units. Personally I HATE units that require auto scan before you can even watch a single channel. I own several digital receivers, but this is one of my favorites.

With this unit, there is no need to "force" a manual entry into the memory. Direct manual channel entry is allowed. Simply enter the true RF channel number of the station you want and as soon as the station decodes, the remapped, or virtual channel number plus any subchannels are automatically saved in memory. Yes, you are correct as far as I can tell, that anytime you do perform an auto scan, all previous stations are lost unless they are found again during the latest auto scan.

For your use, after adding all the stations you want, you might want to go back and mark the most watched stations as your "Favorite Channels" (found in the menu section) and then you can easily find and enter just those channels by pushing the "FAV CH+" button on the remote.

I hope this helps.

Steve

I cannot find a way to "force" a manual entry into the memory. Why they delete previously saved channels when you do a new scan is baffling to me especially when there is no manual "backdoor". To have to wait the 3-5 minutes for a new scan when changing the rotor is annoying.
There appears to be no standard approach to scanning, retaining channel info from previous scans, or manually entering a channel. The Samsung SIR-T451 wipes out the channel lists on a scan, but it does allows for indirect manual input of channels. For example, if I enter the digital broadcast channel of a station not in the list, and it finds a channel there, that channel is added to the list. I discovered this accidentally when I entered a wrong channel number (12) and there was a digital station there. The Samsung suddenly displayed a channel 60 (the mapped channel #) for a station I did not know I could get. The station had gone full power in the months since the last scan. What is odd about the Samsung is that they don't list what the real channel #s are or provide for an update scan.

OTOH, I have a Sony DHG-HDD250 with NTSC, ATSC, and QAM tuners. It allows for both a full scan (wiping out previous lists) and an update scan. But I can not manually enter a digital channel number. There is no consistency in features or behavior in the ATSC receivers on the market. Has anyone ever asked the ATSC organization if they plan to address issues for people with a rotator antenna setup by specifying update scans and manual add of digital channels as recommended capabilities.

. The Samsung SIR-T451 wipes out the channel lists on a scan.

I got the T451 back in March, and I returned it for that reason. Main things I look for in a HD receiver:

1) An easy access signal meter (preferably a percentage reading)

2) Allows input of RF channel numbers.

3) An update scan that won't delete saved channels.


I have the ProBrand 3150 Plus, and all of these features are included. The only complaint I have is that when I delete a channel, it's not really deleted, it's just left on the channel list. I also have the US Digital box and my built in LG tuner. The program guide looks better on these two than the ProBrand...the ProBrand EPG just looks plain. Anyway, just my 2 cents :)

I know this is probably a noob question but since this is the official antenna thread i decided not to make another one...

Does anyone know if there's an indoor antenna capable of recieving HD signal from a tower 48 miles away? I have dish network and they don't have WB-HD and Fox-HD here (San Diego, CA). I have a mitsubishi wd-62627 HDTV and HD-DVR Vip622 reciever from dish network. Currently using component but will be using hdmi if it doesn't crash. Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advanced.

I'd think the only indoor antenna capabe of doing that would be the Silver Sensor, which if I'm not mistaken can be found at Circuit City. There are a couple outdoor antennas that would be small enough for indoors, though.

Example:

AntennasDirect DB2 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=AD-DB2&xzoom=Large#xview)

More than likely, you'll need an outdoor antenna, though. A good choice is the CM 4228 (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm).

Does anyone know if there's an indoor antenna capable of recieving HD signal from a tower 48 miles away?

Capable? Under ideal circumstances, yes. Otherwise, no.

my problem is that i live in an apartment and i don't have space for a big antenna. I might be able to drill a smaller size to the wall but it would have to be behind the tv. Will the antenna being right behind the tv effect it's signal? I have a 62" rear projection and the antenna would be no more than a couple of feet behind it. How about those terk antennas or little ones you throw on top of a table or something?

Will the antenna being right behind the tv effect it's signal?

Your chances of receiving a stable signal diminish with this approach. A possible compromise between a small indoor and large outdoor would be the 4221. http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm
Your best chance will be to place on a wall by a window facing the towers.

my problem is that i live in an apartment and i don't have space for a big antenna. I might be able to drill a smaller size to the wall but it would have to be behind the tv. Will the antenna being right behind the tv effect it's signal? I have a 62" rear projection and the antenna would be no more than a couple of feet behind it. How about those terk antennas or little ones you throw on top of a table or something?
There are only a few reports for Vista and nearby San Marcos areas found at hdtv.forsandiego.com and www.hdtvpub.com. They all use a mast mounted outdoor antenna. Other than dropouts for distant XETV-DT, reception is very good for both S.D. and L.A. with an outdoor antenna.

However, unless you are in the hills overlooking Vista, you are probably too far away to use an indoor antenna for 6.1 (XETV-DT) and may have problems with other S.D. stations, esp 8.1 and 10.1 from Mt. Soledad.

The RPTV will effect an antenna to some extent, depending on how much metal is in the frame....but mostly it's empty air and glass. You could try hiding an antenna behind it--but try to keep it as high as possible.....

The highly rated Silver Sensor antenna has insufficient gain for your location. Listed in increasing order of effectiveness, you could try one of the more effective indoor antennas such as the Radio Shack RS 15-624 Double Bow, the Antennas Direct DB-2 2-Bay or even the Winegard PR-4400 4-Bay (my favorite "indoor" antenna, which is less obtrusive than the CM-4221 or DB-4):
http://shop.willyselectronics.com/browse.cfm/4,163.htm
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SPR4400

You should also use a good low noise VHF/UHF Preamp, such as the WG AP-8700 or CM-7777:
http://shop.willyselectronics.com/browse.cfm/4,73.htm
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC7777

However, indoor reception at your distance can be very difficult, so be prepared to experiment and take advantage of liberal return policies.

A more reliable alternative would be to order "Limited Basic Cable" from Cox Cable for $12.50/mo and watch all the local HD stations via your HDTV's unencrypted QAM tuner (no CableCARD required)....at least until the missing local HD channels finally show up on Dish and DirecTV.

thanks holl_ands for your post. Everyone told me my chances of getting these channels with an indoor or outdoor antenna are slim to none. I'll give it a try with the info you provided and if doesn't work out I'll just return it. Thanks for your help guys.

(WARNING! NEWB!)
Okay, I used to live in an area where picking up OTA was very easy. I went and bought a philips indoor antenna and VOILA, I had HD. Well, I've since moved. My philips doesn't work anymore due to, I suppose, distance. I went to antennaweb and entered my new information. Here's what it's telling me for local DTV channels:

RED - vhf - KLTVDT 7.1 - ABC - Tyler, TX - 268 degrees - 21.3 miles - Frequency 10
Violet - uhf - KMSSDT 34.1 - Fox - Shreveport, LA - 75 degrees - 54.6 miles - Frequency 34
Violet - uhf - KTBSDT 3.1 - ABC - Shreveport, LA - 77 degrees - 54.7 miles - Frequency 28
Violet - uhf - KFXKDT 31.1 - Fox - Longview, TX - 118 degrees - 9.7 miles - Frequency 31

Now, at minimum I'd like to get all of these channels. However, I'd also LOVE to be able to get some channels from Little Rock (about 250 miles to my NE) so that I can maybe get SEC football games. Heck, getting Dallas (120 miles West) would be great as well for when the NBA comes back. My TV has a built in QAM and ATSC tuner (I think those are the right acronyms!).

I currently live in a duplex. Getting something up on the roof is probably not an option. I could put something in the backyard or indoors. It also needs to be somewhat mobile, as I'll probably be moving in 5 months or so. Does anyone have any ideas?

What's a good one that will get me at least local (within 60 miles)? How bout local AND extended (up to 300 miles or so)? I really appreciate any help you guys could give me!

Josh

Now, at minimum I'd like to get all of these channels. However, I'd also LOVE to be able to get some channels from Little Rock (about 250 miles to my NE) so that I can maybe get SEC football games. Heck, getting Dallas (120 miles West) would be great as well for when the NBA comes back. My TV has a built in QAM and ATSC tuner (I think those are the right acronyms!).
For 50 miles, you'll need a big outdoor antenna. And, for 120 miles a lot of luck. It probably won't happen. 300 miles? That's DX'ing range. It won't happen.
....jc

For 50 miles, you'll need a big outdoor antenna. And, for 120 miles a lot of luck. It probably won't happen. 300 miles? That's DX'ing range. It won't happen.
....jc

Do you have any recommendations for a big outdoor antenna? Would it even work that well if it was just on a tripod?

Do you have any recommendations for a big outdoor antenna? Would it even work that well if it was just on a tripod?
For UHF a CM 4228 or AD 91XG, for both UHF & VHF a Winegard 8200. Height is everything. A tripod might work, but something higher is almost always a better choice.
....jc

For UHF a CM 4228 or AD 91XG, for both UHF & VHF a Winegard 8200. Height is everything. A tripod might work, but something higher is almost always a better choice.
....jc

Great, thanks for the advice. I'm going to run by radio shack on the way home and pick up a VU-75 XR and a 15-1892. I'm hoping I'll get lucky and one of those will work for me. If not, maybe I'll just go all out and read up on this DX stuff.

Try the following link;

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/sizing.html

Great, thanks for the advice. I'm going to run by radio shack on the way home and pick up a VU-75 XR and a 15-1892. I'm hoping I'll get lucky and one of those will work for me. If not, maybe I'll just go all out and read up on this DX stuff.
Save your money! Neither of those antennas will likely do the job. As suggested read the HDTV Primer. A wealth of info there! Buy quality stuff from CM or Winegard(and others), and you'll likely have a better chance of success.
....jc

Well in that case, I'll just save up and try to get some really good gear and go from there. I wasn't really wanting to spend >$100 on this. With all the mounting stuff I'd have to do, and it being a rent house with no roof access, I guess it looks like I'll just have to wait if there are no viable indoor options. I should be in my own house in another 1.5 years, so might as well wait til then I suppose. Thanks anyway guys.

For deep fringe reception:
1) CM 4228 (UHF)
2) Wade-delhi VIP-306 (VHF)
3) CM titan 7777 preamp
4) 30' + (antenna height)
5) CM 9521a rotator

Note: Reception is difficult beyond 70 miles due to curvature of the earth

Josh, what's your zip code? What about the other Tyler digital stations?

Josh, what's your zip code? What about the other Tyler digital stations?

I'm in 75693.

I went by radio shack on the way home and got one of their internal antennas. It was actually able to pull in the ABC from shreveport (54 miles away). I'd keep it, but it only gets two other stations and neither of those come in NEAR as well. BUT, this does give me SOME hope that an external ant will really work for the areas i'm trying to reach.

Hey gang,

SOmeone on the Chicago OTA board wants an antenna on his roof. Does anyone know of anyone who still does that stuff for residential housing in the area, besides the one in Morris?

Josh - antennaweb seems to be severely lacking in info on your local stations. There are at least four in Tyler - KLTV, KFXK, KYTX, KETK - alll with digital stations although a couple of them have not started HD yet ("soon"). You should be able to get all of those no problem. An outside antenna like the CM4228 with a rotator will give you the best shot at getting the distant stations. The CM4228 is UHF but with good performance down to channel 7 in the hi-VHF band.

Perhaps this is a dumb question. Here's my situation.

I am 6.8 miles from one tower that carries two channels I want, one uhf, the other Ch. 13 vhf. I am 4.8 miles from another tower that has two uhf channels I want. They are at 148 and 153 degrees, so in the scheme of the universe, practically right next to each other. I have several 30'+ trees in my yard between me and the towers, no other obstructions. If anything, the ground I am on is at a higher elevation than ground on which the towers sit.

I have an amplified indoor rabbit ear/ring uhf/vhf antenna that will pull any one of the stations in at 90 "signal strength". The prolem is that I cannot tune them all in at the same time, and a windy day forces me to SD cable reception. So I'd like to get a small outdoor antenna that will be more reliable in crappy weather.

Dumb question: Will a small UHF antenna, like the small Winegard 4400 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SPR4400) or the larger 8800 pull in the VHF ch. 13?

I don't want a huge yagi style uhf/vhf antenna, so if I am stuck with a dual antenna, I'll probably go with the Winegard/Terk Squareshooter.

But if I can get away with it, I'd like to just get a cheaper, low profile UHF. So is it possible to get ch. 13 with a UHF?

Perhaps this is a dumb question. Here's my situation.

I am 6.8 miles from one tower that carries two channels I want, one uhf, the other Ch. 13 vhf. I am 4.8 miles from another tower that has two uhf channels I want. They are at 148 and 153 degrees, so in the scheme of the universe, practically right next to each other. I have several 30'+ trees in my yard between me and the towers, no other obstructions. If anything, the ground I am on is at a higher elevation than ground on which the towers sit.

Dumb question: Will a small UHF antenna, like the small Winegard 4400 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SPR4400) or the larger 8800 pull in the VHF ch. 13?

I don't want a huge yagi style uhf/vhf antenna, so if I am stuck with a dual antenna, I'll probably go with the Winegard/Terk Squareshooter.

But if I can get away with it, I'd like to just get a cheaper, low profile UHF. So is it possible to get ch. 13 with a UHF?

Most UHF antennas will receive high band vhf (including ch 13). Some do a better job than others.

Check out the bottom of this page, there is a section about using common UHF antennas for high VHF reception:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

At your distance I would say you have a good shot at receiving ch 13 with a UHF antenna. But everyone's location is unique, topography and man-made obstructions greatly affect signal strength.

Best advice I can give is to purchase an antenna from a source which will accept returns. Watch out for restocking fees from Internet vendors. Then get a couple of sections of antenna mast (cheap from RS) and some sort of tripod mount. A bicycle repair stand can work well at providing a temporary base to which you can clamp the mast. With a 10 ft mast you should be able to get some idea of whether you can receive a good signal, prior to attempting a permanent install.

I'm in 75693.

I went by radio shack on the way home and got one of their internal antennas. It was actually able to pull in the ABC from shreveport (54 miles away). I'd keep it, but it only gets two other stations and neither of those come in NEAR as well. BUT, this does give me SOME hope that an external ant will really work for the areas i'm trying to reach.
There is not a lot of TV out your way. In the attached document, if you look at the "Transmitter Antenna" column, the red line is pointing towards you. Knowing that, if you look at KETZ-DT, they are broadcasting away from you. (You are on the back-side of their antenna and will get very little signal from them.) A similar situation exists for KLTS-DT. Other stations, like KSHV-DT, are at low power and/or broadcasting from a low antenna. Again, a significantly reduced signal.


Bob

Bob - I'm a bit confused here. One of my friends says there are three other stations in Longview/Tyler, all with digital transmissions - KFXK, KYTX and KETX. They don't show up on your report (or in antennaweb). Maybe this is because both programs use the same database and these stations are missing???

texasbrit,

You can get info about those stations on the Official FCC website (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html).

Bob - I'm a bit confused here. One of my friends says there are three other stations in Longview/Tyler, all with digital transmissions - KFXK, KYTX and KETX. They don't show up on your report (or in antennaweb). Maybe this is because both programs use the same database and these stations are missing???
The stations are there. Antennaweb is very conservative, it doesn't think that you'll be able to receive them. Take KFXK for instance. It's only broadcasting at 0.25kW if they haven't gone to full power yet. And, the digital antenna is only 27 meters above the terrain(the analog antenna is 381 meters).
....jc

Perhaps this is a dumb question. Here's my situation.

I am 6.8 miles from one tower that carries two channels I want, one uhf, the other Ch. 13 vhf. I am 4.8 miles from another tower that has two uhf channels I want. They are at 148 and 153 degrees, so in the scheme of the universe, practically right next to each other. I have several 30'+ trees in my yard between me and the towers, no other obstructions. If anything, the ground I am on is at a higher elevation than ground on which the towers sit.

I have an amplified indoor rabbit ear/ring uhf/vhf antenna that will pull any one of the stations in at 90 "signal strength". The prolem is that I cannot tune them all in at the same time, and a windy day forces me to SD cable reception. So I'd like to get a small outdoor antenna that will be more reliable in crappy weather.

Dumb question: Will a small UHF antenna, like the small Winegard 4400 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SPR4400) or the larger 8800 pull in the VHF ch. 13?

I don't want a huge yagi style uhf/vhf antenna, so if I am stuck with a dual antenna, I'll probably go with the Winegard/Terk Squareshooter.

But if I can get away with it, I'd like to just get a cheaper, low profile UHF. So is it possible to get ch. 13 with a UHF?You can get the Terk SS-1000 at Best Buy, and if it works well for you, you can return it and get it for a bit over half the price online. It should normally pick up channel 13 decently at that short of a distance.

Those trees may or may not be a problem. All you can do is try.

You can get the Terk SS-1000 at Best Buy, and if it works well for you, you can return it and get it for a bit over half the price online. It should normally pick up channel 13 decently at that short of a distance.

Those trees may or may not be a problem. All you can do is try.

That's actually a great idea. I'm going to check it out this weekend.

All the Phoenix channels are on one mountain and live about 895 feet above sea level. I think I can receive these channels with no problem with either a Zenith ZHDTV1 HDTV-UHF Digital Indoor Antenna (Silver and Black) or a Terk Technology HDTVi VHF/UHF HDTV Indoor Antenna. Is there a advantage of one over the other or is there a better one out there in that price range. It must be indoors. No trees or high buildings just desert. Is there any advantage getting one of them amplified or not.


* yellow - uhf KDTP-DT 39 DAY PHOENIX AZ TBD 91° 28.3 39
* yellow - uhf KPPX-DT 51.1 i TOLLESON AZ 91° 28.4 52
* yellow - uhf KTVW-DT 33.1 UNI PHOENIX AZ 92° 28.3 34
* yellow - uhf KTVK-DT 3.1 IND PHOENIX AZ 91° 28.3 24
* yellow - uhf KPHO-DT 5.1 CBS PHOENIX AZ 91° 28.4 17
* yellow - uhf KPNX-DT 12.1 NBC MESA AZ 92° 28.3 36
* yellow - uhf KAET-DT 8.1 PBS PHOENIX AZ 92° 28.3 29
* yellow - uhf KNXV-DT 15.1 ABC PHOENIX AZ 92° 28.3 56
* green - uhf KASW-DT 61.1 WB PHOENIX AZ 91° 28.3 49
* green - uhf KSAZ-DT 10.1 FOX PHOENIX AZ 91° 28.3 31
* green - uhf KUTP-DT 45.1 UPN PHOENIX AZ 91° 28.5 26
* red - uhf KPAZ-DT 21.1 TBN PHOENIX AZ 91° 28.3 20

I currently can pick up all of my local HD broadcasts with a cheapo $7 unamplified rabbit-ears-plus-hoop style antenna plugged into my HDTivo. We have 4 UHF channels and 1 VHF (frequency 10). The problem is that if I orient the antenna to pick up the one VHF channel best, the UHF channels suffer, and vice-versa. The circular "hoop" doesn't turn independently of the "ears" (can't expect much for $7 bucks I guess). So I figure I could upgrade to something a little better and be able to pick up all 5 channels without constantly fussing with the antenna. I tried the Zenith "Silver Sensor", and while that worked superbly for the UHF channels, it couldn't see the VHF one at all (no surprise I guess).

Any recommendations for a decent indoor antenna that can pull in both UHF and VHF? It doesn't have to be the best UHF antenna ever made - just needs to be adequate, and allow me to orient the UHF and VHF independently. That, or any suggestions for combining a decent indoor VHF antenna with the Zenith Silver Sensor (presumably a splitter could do the trick)?

Thanks,
Sean

I currently can pick up all of my local HD broadcasts with a cheapo $7 unamplified rabbit-ears-plus-hoop style antenna plugged into my HDTivo. We have 4 UHF channels and 1 VHF (frequency 10). The problem is that if I orient the antenna to pick up the one VHF channel best, the UHF channels suffer, and vice-versa. The circular "hoop" doesn't turn independently of the "ears" (can't expect much for $7 bucks I guess). So I figure I could upgrade to something a little better and be able to pick up all 5 channels without constantly fussing with the antenna. I tried the Zenith "Silver Sensor", and while that worked superbly for the UHF channels, it couldn't see the VHF one at all (no surprise I guess).

Any recommendations for a decent indoor antenna that can pull in both UHF and VHF? It doesn't have to be the best UHF antenna ever made - just needs to be adequate, and allow me to orient the UHF and VHF independently. That, or any suggestions for combining a decent indoor VHF antenna with the Zenith Silver Sensor (presumably a splitter could do the trick)?

Thanks,
Sean
The Zenith/Philips/Gemini Silver Sensor is UHF only.

The Terk HDTVi and HDTVa (amplified) are very similiar, except they add collapsible rabbit ears for VHF reception:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs/002-8538631-0956062?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=silver+sensor&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go

=========================================
If you try to combine a VHF antennas (e.g. rabbit ears or folded dipole) with a UHF antenna using a typical RF Splitter/Combiner, you will have 4 dB of insertion loss for each antenna.

What you should use is a VHF/UHF Combiner that has very low loss (typically 0.5 dB) for each antenna, such as the fol:
http://www.pacificcable.com/Picture_Page.asp?DataName=201-604

Bob - I'm a bit confused here. One of my friends says there are three other stations in Longview/Tyler, all with digital transmissions - KFXK, KYTX and KETX. They don't show up on your report (or in antennaweb). Maybe this is because both programs use the same database and these stations are missing???
Tex,

The guy that runs 2150.com actually uses the FCC public database (that others told you to go look at) to derive his webpage. It's just that I don't usually check-mark the 'expired records' when I am doing a station search for someone. Unfortunately, the FCC is in the middle of going through the renewal process for all the TV stations in Texas. That causes some licences, STA's (Special Temporary Authority, and CP's (Construction Permits) appear to be expired, when actually they are not, they are just waiting in line at the FCC for renewal. Once it is done, the new licenses will expire in August of 2014.

Bob

Although it doesn't have all of the fancy bells and whistles of www.2150.com/broadcast,
I've found that the fol website usually finds most of the nearby stations:
http://www.fccinfo.com/cmdpro.php?sz=L&wd=1280

Although it doesn't have all of the fancy bells and whistles of www.2150.com/broadcast,
I've found that the fol website usually finds most of the nearby stations:
http://www.fccinfo.com/cmdpro.php?sz=L&wd=1280
Holl_ands,

I've worked with those guys before but I didn't know they had a website like that fixed up. I will definitely bookmark it.

Thanks,

Bob

You can get the Terk SS-1000 at Best Buy, and if it works well for you, you can return it and get it for a bit over half the price online. It should normally pick up channel 13 decently at that short of a distance.

Those trees may or may not be a problem. All you can do is try.


As a follow up, I did get the Terk HDTVS (the SS-1000). It pulls in the UHF stations I am trying to get at about 98 on the signal strength and a consistent 92-95 on the VHF (13) channel that I want. Each station is practically "locked" on the signal - the meter almost never varies. If it does, the UHF stations never drop below 95, the VHF actually increases to 95, never dropping below 92.

For what it's worth, a Sony tech that came out to replace a bad ATSC tuner told me that the number that matters is the SNR(dB) number, and each station comes in at 28-30, which is higher all around than it ever was before.

So add me to the list of people who endorse the HDTVS (Square shooter).

As a follow up, I did get the Terk HDTVS (the SS-1000). It pulls in the UHF stations I am trying to get at about 98 on the signal strength and a consistent 92-95 on the VHF (13) channel that I want. Each station is practically "locked" on the signal - the meter almost never varies. If it does, the UHF stations never drop below 95, the VHF actually increases to 95, never dropping below 92.

For what it's worth, a Sony tech that came out to replace a bad ATSC tuner told me that the number that matters is the SNR(dB) number, and each station comes in at 28-30, which is higher all around than it ever was before.

So add me to the list of people who endorse the HDTVS (Square shooter).That's great. I'm glad it worked out for you. I had a feeling it might.

Hello all -

The past couple of days I've been reading through many of the posts in this thread, looking for an antenna. Previously I was maybe 10 miles from the towers for the Boston area (02474), and used a Radioshack indoor UHF/VHF antenna to recieve all of the local HD channels. We've now moved to 01606, and not surprisingly the indoor doesn't work since the towers are now ~30miles distant. 4.1 would occasionally come in, but ~60% signal strength resulted in frequent "pixelation."

Below is the antennaweb data for my address. I'm only interested in receiving the signals at bearings 105° and 106°. We've got an unfinished walk up attic (cape style house, only single floor is finished) so I could put something up there, or even in the garage rafters, but I'm not opposed to putting something outside on the chimney.

It looks like the CM4228 is a popular choice here, but I'm concerned about wind loading due to its size/shape.

Thanks

yellow - uhf WUNI-DT 27.1 UNI WORCESTER MA 91° 5.3 29
red - uhf WGBH-DT 2.1 PBS BOSTON MA 106° 29.6 19
blue - uhf WGBX-DT 44.1 PBS BOSTON MA 106° 29.6 43
blue - uhf WUTF-DT 66.1 TFA MARLBOROUGH MA 89° 17.1 23
blue - vhf WPRI-DT 12.1 CBS PROVIDENCE RI 153° 40.9 13
blue - uhf WJAR-DT 10.1 NBC PROVIDENCE RI 154° 41.4 51
blue - uhf WCVB-DT 5.1 ABC BOSTON MA 106° 29.6 20
blue - uhf WBZ-DT 4.1 CBS BOSTON MA 106° 29.6 30
blue - uhf WHDH-DT 7.1 NBC BOSTON MA 105° 30.7 42
violet - uhf WLVI-DT 56.1 WB CAMBRIDGE MA 106° 30.6 41
violet - uhf WBPX-DT 68.1 i BOSTON MA 106° 30.3 32
violet - uhf WNAC-DT 64.1 FOX PROVIDENCE RI 154° 40.8 54
violet - uhf WLNE-DT 6.1 ABC NEW BEDFORD MA 154° 41.4 49
violet - uhf WFXT-DT 25.1 FOX BOSTON MA 106° 30.6 31
violet - uhf WMFP-DT 18.1 SAH LAWRENCE MA TBD 106° 30.3 18
violet - uhf WWDP-DT 52.1 SAH NORWELL MA 134° 42.6 52
violet - uhf WSBK-DT 38.1 UPN BOSTON MA 106° 29.6 39
violet - uhf WYDN-DT 47 DAY WORCESTER MA TBD 106° 30.3 47

Perhaps this has been answered before, but I'd like to know, if my LG3410a measures signal quality, what can I use instead to measure signal strength? This might be useful in locating and orienting my antenna.

I'm at my wit's end here. I've been looking thru all of the forums, and all of the messages, and the more I research the less I seem to know.

I live relatively close to all of the towers for the channels I want to get. I have a Philips inside antenna hooked up to my HR10-250, and I can get all but one channel with decent signal strength pretty much no matter where in the house I put it. Obviously some spots are better than others, but you get the idea. The problem is the one I can't get. No matter where I put the antenna, I can't get a strong enough signal to lock on at all. In fact, the only way to get any hint of any signal at all on this channel is to hang the antenna out the upstairs west side window, and even then it peaks for a few seconds and then goes away. I've tried an amplifier, I've moved the thing all over the house, nothing. I'm just about ready to pull my hair out. If anyone can suggest a solution, please help.

The antennaweb info for my address is:

yellow - uhf WTVH-DT 47.1 CBS SYRACUSE NY 165° 2.2 47
yellow - uhf WSTM-DT 3.1 NBC SYRACUSE NY 164° 2.2 54
yellow - uhf WNYS-DT 44.1 MNT SYRACUSE NY 218° 7.1 44
yellow - uhf WCNY-DT 24.1 PBS SYRACUSE NY 163° 2.2 25
yellow - uhf WSYT-DT 19.1 FOX SYRACUSE NY 218° 7.1 19
red - uhf WSYR-DT 9.1 ABC SYRACUSE NY 121° 6.2 17

The channel I can't get at all is WSYR- the ABC channel. The others I can get with little to no problem. About the only obstacles in my area is the neighbor's tree which is in the vague direction of the towers and a little higher than the house (1.5 story house).

I'm a total newb at this, and the idea of putting up an outdoor antenna scares the crap out of me because I am afraid I am not going to ground it properly or somehow screw it up and blow up my TV or other equipment. I'd also hate to have to go thru all the work of putting this antenna up and find out that either I could have gotten the channel in some manner with an indoor antenna, or that nothing I do can get the channel at my house - that last one would really piss me off.

I've read pretty much everything suggested here and I'm no closer to a solution. In fact, my head is about ready to explode from the overload of information.

KnordRW,
Due to your close proximity to the towers, the Silver Sensor may be your best bet as recommended by holl_ands and sregener. Buying locally will enable easy return. I am unable to recollect the name of a poster who mentioned a rotatable indoor antenna at Radio Shack. It came with a small remote that turned the antenna to previously entered coordinates when a channel was entered.
silbeR32
While attic installs cause more attenuation, reflections, etc., you may be in luck doing this as your stations are at the same bearing and only at 30 miles. Many have had success with the 4 bay CM4221. If your cable run is long, you may need a 10dB preamp. Its bigger brother, the 4228, is no slouch either if the extra weight or width is not a problem. I'm not a big fan of chimney mounts, but a small light weight yagi should not cause any problems under wind load.

Can anyone suggest a good coaxial grounding block(sheilded?) for an outside instalation of rg6 coax. also a block for running 2 identical uhf's together.
Thanks,

Steve

KnordRW,
Due to your close proximity to the towers, the Silver Sensor may be your best bet as recommended by holl_ands and sregener. Buying locally will enable easy return. I am unable to recollect the name of a poster who mentioned a rotatable indoor antenna at Radio Shack. It came with a small remote that turned the antenna to previously entered coordinates when a channel was entered.
silbeR32
While attic installs cause more attenuation, reflections, etc., you may be in luck doing this as your stations are at the same bearing and only at 30 miles. Many have had success with the 4 bay CM4221. If your cable run is long, you may need a 10dB preamp. Its bigger brother, the 4228, is no slouch either if the extra weight or width is not a problem. I'm not a big fan of chimney mounts, but a small light weight yagi should not cause any problems under wind load.That Radio Shack remote-controlled model is the 15-1892, price: $49.95.

I'm at my wit's end here. I've been looking thru all of the forums, and all of the messages, and the more I research the less I seem to know.

I live relatively close to all of the towers for the channels I want to get. I have a Philips inside antenna hooked up to my HR10-250, and I can get all but one channel with decent signal strength pretty much no matter where in the house I put it. Obviously some spots are better than others, but you get the idea. The problem is the one I can't get. No matter where I put the antenna, I can't get a strong enough signal to lock on at all. In fact, the only way to get any hint of any signal at all on this channel is to hang the antenna out the upstairs west side window, and even then it peaks for a few seconds and then goes away. I've tried an amplifier, I've moved the thing all over the house, nothing. I'm just about ready to pull my hair out. If anyone can suggest a solution, please help.

The antennaweb info for my address is:

yellow - uhf WTVH-DT 47.1 CBS SYRACUSE NY 165° 2.2 47
yellow - uhf WSTM-DT 3.1 NBC SYRACUSE NY 164° 2.2 54
yellow - uhf WNYS-DT 44.1 MNT SYRACUSE NY 218° 7.1 44
yellow - uhf WCNY-DT 24.1 PBS SYRACUSE NY 163° 2.2 25
yellow - uhf WSYT-DT 19.1 FOX SYRACUSE NY 218° 7.1 19
red - uhf WSYR-DT 9.1 ABC SYRACUSE NY 121° 6.2 17

The channel I can't get at all is WSYR- the ABC channel. The others I can get with little to no problem. About the only obstacles in my area is the neighbor's tree which is in the vague direction of the towers and a little higher than the house (1.5 story house).

I'm a total newb at this, and the idea of putting up an outdoor antenna scares the crap out of me because I am afraid I am not going to ground it properly or somehow screw it up and blow up my TV or other equipment. I'd also hate to have to go thru all the work of putting this antenna up and find out that either I could have gotten the channel in some manner with an indoor antenna, or that nothing I do can get the channel at my house - that last one would really piss me off.

I've read pretty much everything suggested here and I'm no closer to a solution. In fact, my head is about ready to explode from the overload of information.
The hill just East of you is blocking the signal from CH9.1
If I move the location just a few blocks West, antennaweb.org shows it as being "yellow".

In order to obtain the maximum sensitivity for that channel, I would first recommend inserting a variable RF attenuator (R-S 15-678) on the antenna input of your HDTV (try from MIN to about 12 o-clock):
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062022&cp=&origkw=attenuator&kw=attenuator&parentPage=search
A small attenuation in the strong signals from the nearby transmitters will yield a 3-fold reduction in intermod products levels, e.g. a 10 dB attenuator on the input level will yield a 30 dB reduction in intermod products. The goal is to reduce the intermod signal levels (3:1 reduction) below the level of the desired signal (1:1 reduction).

Secondly, if the attenuator doesn't work, you should consider an outdoor antenna, such as the CM4221....unfortunately you'll have to play around with the direction, trying to maximize CH9.1 without unduly affecting the other channels.

Q: What kind of Philips antenna are you using??? If it is amplified, it's overloaded....

Rammitinski,
Thank you for the model number. Should it have the same capabilities the 15-1880 had, it would be a welcome benefit for those with opposing towers unable to perform outdoor installs. If memory serves, the 1880 could acquire digital stations 43 miles distant with low 90's signal strength at awkward angles to the towers.

That Radio Shack remote-controlled model is the 15-1892, price: $49.95.
But that model is AMPLIFIED, even at the lowest gain setting, and hence will cause overload problems with KnordRW's stations being so near....

But that model is AMPLIFIED, even at the lowest gain setting, and hence will cause overload problems with KnordRW's stations being so near....Sorry - I didn't realize how close he was. I just now noticed.

I was just adding to what Kolchak said when he mentioned the antenna.

Thanks for all the posts. There's a lot of good info on this board. I am confused about the UHF only 4228 vs. the combined VHF/UHF 3671. Looking at Channel Master's table, they show the 4228 with a range of 60 miles UHF. They show the 3671 at 60+ miles UHF. Everyone says use UHF only antenna to maximize reception in fringe areas. But 60+ > 60 so what gives?

I have what looks like a 4228 left on the roof by the previous owner. I have hooked it up with the CM 7777 amp with good results. I am in s. mid-TN (37334). Over several days, I was consistently able to lock on 1 Chattanooga station (digital on channel 47, transmitter at 67 miles) and 1 Dalton, GA station (digital on channel 16, transmitter at 64 miles).

In order to pull in Nashville (70-85 miles, ch. 2,4,5) and Chattanooga (~70 miles, ch. 3,9,12) VHF stations, I purchased the 3671. The 4228 picks up the VHF-hi channels okay, but, of course, can't get the VHF-lo channels which are one of my main goals (because of Nashville). The VHF-lo issue may become moot in 2009, depending on what the stations do, but at least I'll have it until then. Of course, I'd also like to be able to pull in any digital I can get.

I have been testing the 3671 attached to my shed along with the 7777 amp. The antenna elevation is probably 15-20 foot lower than the 4228 on the house. The 3671 picks up the VHF channels well, but I've had poor results on UHF. I understand that UHF is more line-of-sight so this might be expected.

I'm wondering how the performance compares between the two. I haven't found channel by channel detailed specs from CM.

The reason I am asking about the 4228, UHF only, performance vs. the 3671, broadband, performance is that it will take some effort to get the 3671 to the roof. The area where I will want to mount it is over the attached garage. The pitch is 45 degrees with the peak at about 27 feet. The side wall is all brick. I have a 40 foot telescoping pole available left by the previous owner. (It's what I've got the 3671 on now, but attached to my detached shed and not fully extended). I am considering whether to attach the telescoping pole to the ground and house or whether just to mount a tripod to the peak. I see pros and cons both ways but would appreciate any insight. I get a little queasy (sp?) thinking about doing installation and maintenance at the edge of the peak.

10frog, see if these previous posts, regarding a similar situation, help explain what you might or might not expect. With the terrain in your area, a high location could be very beneficial while a low or valley spot could be a very difficult location for reception at your distances. My 2 cents. Good luck.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8377470&&#post8377470
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8385023&&#post8385023

The CM 4228 and 3671 have been tested against some other antennas and are charted here......http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

I figured I'd post my success with an OTA antenna. When D* installed my OTA antenna a few months back they installed a DB2 from antennas direct. While this worked great for most stations it obviously wouldn't pull in low band VHF CBS. After tons of message board reviews I decided to give the Winegard GS-1100 a shot.

Here are my antennaweb stats
yellow - uhf WYCC-DT 20.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 128° 8.6 21
yellow - uhf WSNS-DT 44.1 TEL CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 45
yellow - uhf WPWR-DT 50.1 MNT GARY IN 137° 8.9 51
yellow - uhf WMAQ-DT 5.1 NBC CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 29
yellow - uhf WTTW-DT 11.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 47
yellow - uhf WLS-DT 7.1 ABC CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 52
yellow - uhf WCIU-DT 26.1 IND CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 27
yellow - uhf WCPX-DT 38.1 i CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 43
yellow - uhf WXFT-DT 60.1 TFA AURORA IL 137° 8.9 59
yellow - uhf WFLD-DT 32.1 FOX CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 31
yellow - uhf WGN-DT 9.1 CW CHICAGO IL 137° 8.9 19
green - uhf WGBO-DT 66.1 UNI JOLIET IL 128° 8.6 53
green - vhf WBBM-DT 2.1 CBS CHICAGO IL 128° 8.6 3
blue - uhf WJYS-DT 36.1 REL HAMMOND IN 137° 8.9 36


For $20 I really didn't care if it worked or not. I didn't order any mounts as I figured I could jury rig a mount. It came with a bracket and two u bolts. I was able to mount it about 20' in the air attached to existing conduit that ran to spot lights. I used a handheld GPS and aimed it the 137* antennaweb said my stations were broadcasting from.

I then ran it into the antenna lead on my eagle aspen 5x8 multiswitch, then diplexed at 3 HDTVs.

Overall I'm VERY pleased, I'm pulling 15 channels at 93% and CBS is coming in at 85%. Granted I'm only 9 miles from the stations, but for $20 I couldn't be happier. So for anyone on the NW side of the city this little $20 antenna works wonders.

I also bought a Squareshooter and while I was able tp pick up the same stations, the signal strength was typicall 10-15pts lower esp on VHF 3.

The fiance is also very happy since we finally get CSI, Without a trace and her other CBS shows in HD!

Thanks for the suggestion of that attenuator, I will try that next. The Phillips I was using was indeed amplified. After trying the Silver Sensor with no better luck, I took a drive by the WSYR tower in Pompey and saw that Sentinel Heights is indeed in my way. That's when I went out to Radio Shack and got a U-75R and a few lengths of mast pole and got out on the roof to find the best spot for it....unfortunately the only difference that made was it brought the other channels up close to 100% signal from an average of 70% - still nothing solid on Ch 9.1

I'm going to try the attenuator this week, but I'm thinking that I've been spinning my wheels on this whole thing. Stupid hill, stupid tree, stupid low power ch 9!

Guess I'll have to move to get Lost in HD. :)

Goldrich

Thanks for your response. I guess I'll do my own A-B test of the 3671 and 4228. I may wind up with a stack if there's significant difference. 'Not looking forward to that. I still don't understand what factor would lead CM to advertise the 3671 with better range in UHF if those charts you linked are anything like the real performance.

Goldrich

Thanks for your response. I guess I'll do my own A-B test of the 3671 and 4228. I may wind up with a stack if there's significant difference. 'Not looking forward to that. I still don't understand what factor would lead CM to advertise the 3671 with better range in UHF if those charts you linked are anything like the real performance.
Unfortunately, the charts in www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html are incomplete, e.g. leaving off the low VHF channels for the CM3671.

If you look at the box at the top of that page, you'll see the fol. link:
http://hometown.aol.com/kq6qv/SIMS/
Download and print ant.xls to see the Charts (sheet 2) and Data (sheet 1).

Look for the chart that plots NET GAIN (not RAW) for the CM4228 vs CM3671 as a single curve from CH10 up through UHF channels to see how much better (a simuated) CM4228 performs compared to a (simulated) CM3671.

You can also compare the VHF performance of the CM3671 to the CM4228.
It should come as no surprise that the CM4228 is only a so-so VHF antenna---but is much better than most UHF-only antennas.

Of course, these are all NEC computer simulations, which may differ from actual performance....

================================================
PS: Gain specifications for CM antennas can be found here:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg2.htm
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg3.htm
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg4.htm
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg5.htm

I'm in Washington, DC at the top of Columbia Heights (one of the higher points in DC), almost comically close to several transmitters:


* yellow - uhf WFDC-DT 14.1 TFA ARLINGTON VA 301° 3.0 15
* yellow - uhf WRC-DT 4.1 NBC WASHINGTON DC 301° 3.0 48
* yellow - uhf WDCW-DT 50.1 CW WASHINGTON DC 14° 2.5 51
* yellow - uhf WETA-DT 26.1 PBS WASHINGTON DC 257° 6.0 27
* green - uhf WPXW-DT 66.1 i MANASSAS VA 250° 18.7 43
* green - uhf WNVC-DT 57.1 IND FAIRFAX VA 262° 11.0 57
* red - uhf WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS WASHINGTON DC 313° 3.2 34
* red - uhf WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC WASHINGTON DC 313° 3.2 39
* blue - uhf WNUV-DT 54.1 CW BALTIMORE MD 46° 34.9 40
* blue - uhf WJZ-DT 13.1 CBS BALTIMORE MD 46° 34.9 38
* blue - uhf WHUT-DT 33 PBS WASHINGTON DC TBD 313° 3.2 33
* blue - uhf WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX WASHINGTON DC 317° 3.6 36
* violet - uhf WNVT-DT 30.1 IND GOLDVEIN VA 237° 30.1 30
* violet - uhf WMAR-DT 2.1 ABC BALTIMORE MD 46° 34.9 52
* violet - uhf WFPT-DT 62.1 PBS FREDERICK MD 337° 27.7 28
* violet - uhf WBAL-DT 11.1 NBC BALTIMORE MD 46° 34.9 59
* violet - uhf WBFF-DT 45.1 FOX BALTIMORE MD 46° 34.9 46

Eyeballing on Google Earth, I get my antenna position as:
38° 55' 31.15" N, 77° 01' 48.15" W The ground elevation is 185' and the antenna is mounted on a chimney mount about 35 feet above that (above my DirecTV dish). Even on a day of thick haze I can see the WDCW tower from the roof, and the path to the Tenleytown location of several important broadcast towers is largely unobstructed by tall buildings (although it seems WTTG is the exception).

Based on the multiple compass headings and my proximity to most of the stations, I opted for a Winegard MS-1000 (non-amplified). Note also that when I actually ordered the antenna a couple months ago (the actual project to get on the roof and replace cable was delayed), antennaweb.org said that WTTG-DT was yellow for me, not blue.

Saturday I finally got on the roof and installed the antenna. I receive all the yellow stations listed above except WETA-DT, which I couldn't get a lock on with any orientation of the antenna. I don't get any green stations, and I get both red stations perfectly. I can't get a reliable lock on WTTG-DT. I do, however, get a strong lock on WNUV-DT (but none of the other Baltimore stations at the same heading and distance), and I get a strong lock on WMPT-DT out of Annapolis (frequency assignment 42), which doesn't even show up on antennaweb.org for me.

In an attempt to improve reception for WTTG-DT, I picked up an amplifier yesterday and tested it with some screwy results: I still can't pick up WTTG-DT, I get an OK lock on WJZ-DT (out of Baltimore), and I completely lose WMPT if the amp is so much as plugged in, even if it's set to minimum gain.

Since the MS-1000 does seem to be exactly what I need for everything but WTTG-DT and WETA-DT, and the amplifier didn't really seem to help, what's to be done for those two channels? I can:

1. Sigh and conclude I won't receive them. In the case of WETA that's not such a big loss since I do get WMPT, but it'd be nice to have WTTG.

2. Keep the amp and reorient the antenna, which probably isn't going to help either but might be worth the effort the next time I have access to the roof.

3. Replace the antenna with something else entirely.

4. Install a new directional antenna or two solely for those channels (and maybe for the other Baltimore locals), keeping the MS-1000 for my DC locals.

A rotator is out of the question since my upstairs neighbor/landlord is also relying on the same antenna and what worked for me might not work for him at any given time of day.

Any suggestions? If I do add another antenna (or more) how do I combine the signals?

OK, before I think myself numb trying to figure stuff out. I will ask 2 questions.

First my info from antennaweb;

yellow - uhf KPXM-DT 41.1 i ST. CLOUD MN 359° 20.6 40
red - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 90° 28.6 50
red - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 90° 28.6 32
red - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 90° 28.6 35
red - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 91° 29.3 21
blue - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 90° 28.6 44
blue - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 91° 29.3 34
blue - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 91° 29.3 16
blue - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 91° 29.3 26
violet - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 90° 28.6 22


1st question.

Most of the channels I care about are in the RED other than FOX which is BLUE. What would be the best antenna for my application? I don't have many tree's in the general direction of the stations or buildings/hilss, etc.

2nd question.

I'm guessing without have a HD tuner in my TV a Panny 53x54. I'm most likely going to be SOL. Is there anyway to get the HD signal without a Sattelite/cable STB and having a built in tuner? Is there a box out there(non cable/sat) for just descrambling OTA HD signals for applications like mine?


Trying to stay away from Satellite as Cable is not offered. Save some $$$ for a bit while we get adjusted to the new house and bills ;)

I've recently moved and my distances have gone from 6 miles from the towers to around 15 miles. Consequently, my indoor antenna no longer works. Channels 3, 6 10, and Fox are my only real concerns and they are all UHF.

I live in an area with about 1000 townhouses. Other than the houses, I have some trees, but mostly open clear skies in the 140° direction.

What would be the best antenna for me? I'm thinking I do not need an amplifier. Is this correct?

Would something like the Zenith Gemdtv-1 work well or is there a much better antenna out there?


Antennaweb info

* red - uhf KYW-DT 3.1 CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 141° 14.5 26
* red - uhf WTVE-DT 51.1 IND READING PA 321° 16.8 25
* blue - uhf WYBE-DT 34.1 PBS PHILADELPHIA PA 140° 14.7 34
* blue - uhf WPVI-DT 6.1 ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 141° 14.5 64
* blue - uhf WGTW-DT 27.1 TBN BURLINGTON NJ 140° 14.7 27
* violet - vhf WBPH-DT 59.1 FMN BETHLEHEM PA 13° 27.0 9
* violet - uhf WPPX-DT 61.1 i WILMINGTON DE 140° 14.7 31
* violet - uhf WPHL-DT 17.1 MNT PHILADELPHIA PA 140° 14.7 54
* violet - uhf WTXF-DT 29.1 FOX PHILADELPHIA PA 136° 13.9 42

I've recently moved and my distances have gone from 6 miles from the towers to around 15 miles. Consequently, my indoor antenna no longer works. Channels 3, 6 10, and Fox are my only real concerns and they are all UHF.

I live in an area with about 1000 townhouses. Other than the houses, I have some trees, but mostly open clear skies in the 140° direction.

What would be the best antenna for me? I'm thinking I do not need an amplifier. Is this correct?

Would something like the Zenith Gemdtv-1 work well or is there a much better antenna out there?


Antennaweb info

* red - uhf KYW-DT 3.1 CBS PHILADELPHIA PA 141° 14.5 26
* red - uhf WTVE-DT 51.1 IND READING PA 321° 16.8 25
* blue - uhf WYBE-DT 34.1 PBS PHILADELPHIA PA 140° 14.7 34
* blue - uhf WPVI-DT 6.1 ABC PHILADELPHIA PA 141° 14.5 64
* blue - uhf WGTW-DT 27.1 TBN BURLINGTON NJ 140° 14.7 27
* violet - vhf WBPH-DT 59.1 FMN BETHLEHEM PA 13° 27.0 9
* violet - uhf WPPX-DT 61.1 i WILMINGTON DE 140° 14.7 31
* violet - uhf WPHL-DT 17.1 MNT PHILADELPHIA PA 140° 14.7 54
* violet - uhf WTXF-DT 29.1 FOX PHILADELPHIA PA 136° 13.9 42

you forgot 10.1 on the antennaweb :) I'll assume it's 140ish though therefore the 3 stations are all the same except fox a few degrees off.But being so close it shouldn't matter.

I'm 40 miles out and have a roof mounted DB8 and even get in 17 and 57 and a bunch of NJ stuff. That DB8 would be overkill for 15 miles out. no amp needed unless you have a long wire run (maybe not even then).I have 125+ feet of RG6 and it's a must for me because of that.

People here swear by the silver sensor for indoor so i'd attempt that one first from someplace that has it locally. I'm not familiar with the antenna you spoke of but you could always get a smaller UHF from radio shack for outdoors. That close you are definitely at an advantage and I it probably wouldn't be difficult to just use what they have in stock and the returnablility is kep there. There is also a DB2 (which is a DB8 shrunk in a copier :)) online if you can't get R/S to work

sounds like an EZ install compared to what a lot of us go thru..good luck

you forgot 10.1 on the antennaweb :) I'll assume it's 140ish though therefore the 3 stations are all the same except fox a few degrees off.But being so close it shouldn't matter.

I'm 40 miles out and have a roof mounted DB8 and even get in 17 and 57 and a bunch of NJ stuff. That DB8 would be overkill for 15 miles out. no amp needed unless you have a long wire run (maybe not even then).I have 125+ feet of RG6 and it's a must for me because of that.

People here swear by the silver sensor for indoor so i'd attempt that one first from someplace that has it locally. I'm not familiar with the antenna you spoke of but you could always get a smaller UHF from radio shack for outdoors. That close you are definitely at an advantage and I it probably wouldn't be difficult to just use what they have in stock and the returnablility is kep there. There is also a DB2 (which is a DB8 shrunk in a copier :)) online if you can't get R/S to work

sounds like an EZ install compared to what a lot of us go thru..good luck

For some reason Antennaweb didn't include 10.1 ... I found that odd as well

Sorry, I should have mentioned I used the Silver Sensor with little success. The Silver Sensor worked wonders from 6 miles, but now at 15 miles I'm not getting much of signal past 35-55db. I'll have to try the local stuff from RS and then the DB2 if needed. Thanks for the help :)

I'm in Washington, DC at the top of Columbia Heights (one of the higher points in DC), almost comically close to several transmitters:
...
In an attempt to improve reception for WTTG-DT, I picked up an amplifier yesterday and tested it with some screwy results: I still can't pick up WTTG-DT, I get an OK lock on WJZ-DT (out of Baltimore), and I completely lose WMPT if the amp is so much as plugged in, even if it's set to minimum gain.
If you check the Baltimore-Washington thread, you will see a lot of postings on the status of WTTG-DT Fox 5 and WDCA-DT My 20. The digital antennas for both stations are in the process of being replaced or upgraded. The new antenna for WTTG-DT has yet to go up. It is not clear what antenna WTTG-DT is using while the upgrade work is going on, but the reception has been spotty for many people the past few weeks. The work was supposed to be done by labor day weekend, but has been delayed by weather (that is the excuse anyway). WTTG-DT and WDCA-DT have been going off the air during weekdays quite frequently since July so don't over react if you get nothing for either during the day. I would wait for the upgrade work to be finished for WTTG-DT before spending a lot of money on other antennas or gear to get their signal.

I would wait for the upgrade work to be finished for WTTG-DT before spending a lot of money on other antennas or gear to get their signal.

Thanks for the reply. I kinda forgot there's a whole Washington/Baltimore thread. (D'oh!). As for my antenna, I did see the construction permit for WTTG on the FCC web site, but I didn't know if that was any reliable indicator that things will actually get better. That said, if they actually finish what they've got the permit for, the extra 25 feet of tower should probably solve my reception problem.

Considering that the amplifier made my signal quality numbers go down for all the other locals, I'm probably going to stick with the unamplified MS-1000, and kick around the idea of a directional antenna for Baltimore locals if I get bored with what I'm getting now.

I figured I would share my experiences from Collegeville, PA ...

I just purchased/tried the 40" boom (15-2160) and 120" boom (15-2154) from RS. I also tried the circular directional antenna (15-2187). I added the Signal Amplifier (15-2507) to the 120". I was only able to get Channel 3 with all 3 of them. 77% Was my highest signal which I got with both the circular directional and the 120" with the amp. Each boom was placed in my attick and off of my second story deck. The attic actually got better signals when pointed at 140 degrees as suggested by antennaweb.

As I posted before, I only have 14 miles to the towers, but antennaweb says I require a violet-uhf. I really do not know what antenna or what exactly to try next. Does anyone have any ideas or am I SOL?

klipsch you must have some serious blockage to not get a signal that close. I"m 40 miles out and a DB8 works fine for all the philly stuff plus some NJ stuff even. I can't say if DB8 would work in your particular circumstance, only that the $100 bucks was worth it in my circumstance.

for some additional perspective also, even indoors i was able to get cbs, abc, nbc pretty strongly but fox and wb were iffy so I had to move it outside.

maybe ask more in the philly thread?

Have you tried a CM4228, it's got great UHF performance but as a bonus also works well at hi-VHF (where the DB-8 is very weak)

I received the 9253 preamp from Research Communications.The power unit has three wires and the one page info sheet states that brown is live,blue is neutral and yellow/green is earth.I'm not an electrican nor electrically inclined.How do I connect the power unit to my household power? Do I need an apadter or device?

I received the 9253 preamp from Research Communications.The power unit has three wires and the one page info sheet states that brown is live,blue is neutral and yellow/green is earth.I'm not an electrican nor electrically inclined.How do I connect the power unit to my household power? Do I need an adapter or device?
Their website sez that it requires +12 VDC, which can be supplied either via the coax or separate wiring, depending on how you order it:
http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html
Didn't you also order the Model 9251 Power Supply???
Rather than take a guess, I would suggest you contact R-C to make sure you have what you need and how they recommend connecting it.

I received the 9253 preamp from Research Communications.The power unit has three wires and the one page info sheet states that brown is live,blue is neutral and yellow/green is earth.I'm not an electrican nor electrically inclined.How do I connect the power unit to my household power? Do I need an apadter or device?

Household wiring (US) - black is live, white is neutral, and green or uninsulated is ground. If you just want to plug it in, buy a three-prong plug and hook up the ground wire to the round ground pin, the neutral wire to the wider flat pin, and the hot wire to the narrower flat pin.

Make sure that this unit is supposed to get 120V first!

Thanks for the info NY and yes the info sheet says the power supply runs 110-120 volts AC.

Looked on Radio Shack and Goggle and could not find a three prong plug that accepts three wire inputs on the non-plug side.Does anyone know where I could find one?

Looked on Radio Shack and Goggle and could not find a three prong plug that accepts three wire inputs on the non-plug side.Does anyone know where I could find one?
You should be able to find something in your local Home Depot (or equivalent).

Here is a variety of choices from Parts Express (also a good source for cables, adapters, speakers, etc):
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3
You can also sign up for their free catalog.

I found the search engines for the usual electronics supply houses to be very difficult to yield useful/viewable results--so I suggest ordering free print catalogs from MOUSER and/or NEWARK:
http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=catalog
http://www.newark.com/

I've been reading through this thread trying to get an idea of what my options are for OTA after purchasing my first HDTV. Here's my question based on two options:

1. South Bend locals. I have a clear southwest view across the lake I live on toward 216 degrees and these are all UHF channels at a distance of 50 miles (but no ABC).

2. Grand Rapids locals which range from -2.1 to 5.8 degrees at an average distance of 35 miles. A mix of UHF and VHF and the CBS station broadcasts on channel 2. The north side of my house has several tall trees close by.

The local PBS station is 10 miles away at 338 degrees and I think I can get that either way.

So, am I more likely to find an antenna that gives me consistent performance in one scenario over another? Does the mix of UHF/VHF, low power and trees present more of a reception challenge than the UHF SB channels that are 15 to 20 miles further away?

Thanks for your input.

Have you tried a CM4228, it's got great UHF performance but as a bonus also works well at hi-VHF (where the DB-8 is very weak)

is there anything that would get 6 in? In 2009 our abc is going back to 6 and that gives me scant 3 years to find a replacement for the db8 :)

Wanted to post this since everyone else's experience and advice has been so helpful -- I believe I've found my solution!

Phoenix proper, 4.5 miles from the towers
HR10-250 DirecTV receiver
Zenith Silver Sensor
Stucco 2 story house

I first tried an RCA ANT 145, on clearance at Target, since I was so close I didn't think it would be worth spending any more on an antenna. However, from what I've gathered, the HR10-250 is easily overloaded by a strong signal, which is what I believe I get, being so close. Also, the RCA was omni-directional, and with all the fences and houses around I'm guessing I get a ton of multipath as well. Long story short, I could get a good signal on all the networks that matter to me (ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS), but I would always have to choose at least one station that came in unreliably. Not a big deal, unless you need to have the capability to record on any channel at any time (can't be there to babysit reception!) So, the RCA not only overloaded the receiver with a strong signal, but it also gave it way too many choices. Based on my need for directionality, no need for VHF, and no need for amplification, I purchased a Silver Sensor yesterday and I think I'm set. I was most worried about the effect my chicken-wire-wrapped stucco house would have on an indoor antenna, but it doesn't seem to be a problem. However, I think I'm picking up secondary signals, which is fine, since they're constant for all stations between 85-90 (according to the HR10). I have the antenna oriented at a 90 degree angle to the exterior wall only an inch away, between the wall and the 50 inch plasma TV. I'm assuming secondary signals because never before have all the signals been more tightly grouped in terms of strength -- I can get better reception than that if I point directly at the towers, which I can see out a window less than 2 feet from the TV. However, pointing directly at the towers didn't yield a satisfactory signal on all channels for some reason, possibly because it was too strong? It seems like the best strategy is to start pointing directly at the towers (from antennaweb), finding your weakest station, then adjusting until that station is the strongest. It's likely there will still be an adequate signal for other stations, since this antenna gets such a good signal. I'm guessing the only adjustments others in Phoenix would have to make would be either attenuation or amplification, because all the towers are located in the same location for most.

Does the mix of UHF/VHF, low power and trees present more of a reception challenge than the UHF SB channels that are 15 to 20 miles further away?


Over water is almost like free distance - the resistance to the signal is so low that people get great results over 100 miles away. So the trees would likely be more of a problem.

So, am I more likely to find an antenna that gives me consistent performance in one scenario over another? Does the mix of UHF/VHF, low power and trees present more of a reception challenge than the UHF SB channels that are 15 to 20 miles further away?


Maybe 1 VHF antenna, 1 UHF -- point the UHF across the lake and pick up CBS (on VHF which isn't as affected by terrain) from the north, then combine them. Not sure what you'd do with the PBS; depending on how directional your UHF antenna is, you might get it.

You should be able to find something in your local Home Depot (or equivalent).

Here is a variety of choices from Parts Express (also a good source for cables, adapters, speakers, etc):
http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=3
You can also sign up for their free catalog.

I found the search engines for the usual electronics supply houses to be very difficult to yield useful/viewable results--so I suggest ordering free print catalogs from MOUSER and/or NEWARK:
http://www.mouser.com/index.cfm?handler=catalog
http://www.newark.com/

Great advice Holl and Thanks! Walked into Home Depot and they had the connectors in electrical.

Hi all

I just bought a 42in LCD screen from Spectre, What's the best indoor or outdoor HD antenna out there for Local HD channel broadcast?

Thanx all

Hi all

I just bought a 42in LCD screen from Spectre, What's the best indoor or outdoor HD antenna out there for Local HD channel broadcast?

Thanx allGo to www.antennaweb.org first and see what type of antenna they recommend, then report back.

What's the best indoor or outdoor HD antenna out there for Local HD channel broadcast?Oh, if only it were that simple. But then, if it were this thread wouldn't be approaching 5,000 posts. :D

Amen!


Oh, if only it were that simple. But then, if it were this thread wouldn't be approaching 5,000 posts. :D

Hey all,

I've decided to get a dedicated UHF antenna for HDTV. As I'd like to use the primary VHF on my combo antenna, I'll need to get a combiner. Do combiners usually filter the inputs to strip the UHF off the VHF input and vice versa? If not, what can I do to isolate the VHF on my combo antenna?

Thanks,
BoB

Hi... What's the best indoor or outdoor HD antenna out there for Local HD channel broadcast?
Pass on any that claim to use "Spirilateral Technology".

Would that be like using the coil springs out of my truck and mounting them horizontally? Probably look pretty cool...hmm...maybe not.. :p

> I've decided to get a dedicated UHF antenna for HDTV. As I'd like to use the primary VHF on my
> combo antenna, I'll need to get a combiner. Do combiners usually filter the inputs to strip the UHF
> off the VHF input and vice versa? If not, what can I do to isolate the VHF on my combo antenna?

I'm not sure exactly what is in those things, but they don't do a great job of filtering.
You can try a good UHF antenna alone and see if it has enough VHF response.
If not, you could try a low-pass filter between the VHF antenna and the combiner,
and a high-pass filter between the UHF antenna and the combiner. The question
is where to find filters with cutoff frequencies appropriate for OTA rather
than cable. If you find anything, please let us know.

Hey all,

I've decided to get a dedicated UHF antenna for HDTV. As I'd like to use the primary VHF on my combo antenna, I'll need to get a combiner. Do combiners usually filter the inputs to strip the UHF off the VHF input and vice versa? If not, what can I do to isolate the VHF on my combo antenna?

Thanks,
BoB

You just need a uhf/vhf diplexer. They are available from multiple manufacturers including RS, Pico, Channelmaster. Attach the output from the combo antenna to the diplexer's vhf input, the output from the uhf antenna to its uhf input. Now your combo antenna has effectively been converted to a vhf-only antenna as the diplexer will filter out the uhf frequencies on its vhf input.

You can try a good UHF antenna alone and see if it has enough VHF response.
If not, you could try a low-pass filter between the VHF antenna and the combiner,
and a high-pass filter between the UHF antenna and the combiner. The question
is where to find filters with cutoff frequencies appropriate for OTA rather
than cable. If you find anything, please let us know.

See above.

You just need a uhf/vhf diplexer. They are available from multiple manufacturers including RS, Pico, Channelmaster. Attach the output from the combo antenna to the diplexer's vhf input, the output from the uhf antenna to its uhf input. Now your combo antenna has effectively been converted to a vhf-only antenna as the diplexer will filter out the uhf frequencies on its vhf input.

Do you happen to have a web link handy for a simple diplexer?

Also, do you suppose the CM 7777 preamp has the correct filtering built-in? I'm a bit leery to use the 7777 as I'm only 10-15 miles away and it has an awful lot of gain. Right now I'm using a ratshak 10-20db preamp/amp, but it doesn't have separate VHF and UHF, so I may just go with the diplexer.

BoB

Do you happen to have a web link handy for a simple diplexer?

Also, do you suppose the CM 7777 preamp has the correct filtering built-in? I'm a bit leery to use the 7777 as I'm only 10-15 miles away and it has an awful lot of gain. Right now I'm using a ratshak 10-20db preamp/amp, but it doesn't have separate VHF and UHF, so I may just go with the diplexer.

BoB

The CM7777 has an internal uhf/vhf diplexer, but you are right you are too close.

UHF/VHF diplexers:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103923&cp

http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm (CM 0549)

The CM7777 has an internal uhf/vhf diplexer, but you are right you are too close.

UHF/VHF diplexers:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103923&cp

http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm (CM 0549)

Thanks! I see Warren Electronics also carries the CM0549. Since I want to get that and a 4221, they look like a good choice. Are they reputable?

Thanks,
BoB

Thanks! I see Warren Electronics also carries the CM0549. Since I want to get that and a 4221, they look like a good choice. Are they reputable?

Thanks,
BoBSure.

cpcat wrote:

> Originally Posted by Konrad2
>> You can try a good UHF antenna alone and see if it has enough VHF response.
>> If not, you could try a low-pass filter between the VHF antenna and the combiner,
>> and a high-pass filter between the UHF antenna and the combiner. The question
>> is where to find filters with cutoff frequencies appropriate for OTA rather
>> than cable. If you find anything, please let us know.
>
> See above.

You missed an important part:

>> they don't do a great job of filtering.

I'm sure that in some cases, the crappy filtering that combiners/diplexors
do is enough. But in other cases it is not, and I'm still looking for
a good source of OTA frequency filters.

I'm sure that in some cases, the crappy filtering that combiners/diplexors
do is enough. But in other cases it is not, and I'm still looking for
a good source of OTA frequency filters.

For most OTA applications they work fine. Not sure what your specific needs are, but you can order customized diplexers/filters here: http://www.tinlee.com

Hello, new to the HD world, and I am about to take the plunge and Buy an HD TV.

I have D* and they do not offer HD locals in my area, because of the small market.

This is my Attenaweb output:

* yellow - uhf WHRM-DT 20.1 PBS WAUSAU WI 347° 32.6 24
* yellow - uhf WAOW-DT 9.1 ABC WAUSAU WI 347° 32.6 29
* red - uhf WSAW-DT 7.1 CBS WAUSAU WI 347° 32.6 40

So My first question is, what's a good antenna in the "Mid Sized" Directional Category. I've got some tall tree's on my lot, and I'm hoping that the Mid Sized will be enough.

As you can see there is no digital fox or nbc in my area. Now NBC is not a big deal, because I can get an HD exception to the national feed, however Fox will not allow this. I believe the following analog channel has a Digital HD counter part:

WLUK 11 FOX GREEN BAY WI 93° 75.8 11

But is not listed on my list. Do I have any chance of getting a digital channel from 75 miles? And if so I'm assuming I would need two antenna’s due to the almost right angle of the directions I would need to point them.

Thanks for your help.

Reu

So My first question is, what's a good antenna in the "Mid Sized" Directional Category.

Do I have any chance of getting a digital channel from 75 miles? And if so I'm assuming I would need two antenna’s due to the almost right angle of the directions I would need to point them.

A good midsized antenna is the Channel Master 4221. Should easily do the trick for 30 miles.

75 miles is possible, if everything is in your favor. The higher you get the antenna, the better. You'd also want something like the AntennasDirect 91XG to get as much signal as possible, combined with a Channel Master 7777 preamplifier. Even then, it may not be enough, or may only work some of the time. You'll need a Jointenna to combine the signals from the two antennas, as well.

Reu,

Where do you live? Your correct about Fox but you should be able to pull in the NBC station from Eau Claire.

You'll need a Jointenna to combine the signals from the two antennas, as well.

Or a rotator.:)

All of my digitals are 75-80 miles out (save for one PBS station)..and with the 4228, rotator, and 7777 preamp, I usually have good luck with them in time for primetime HD. I can get all the HD feeds from D*, but OTA quality is a lot better, if possible :)

My system is only about 27 feet up...so I bet if I could get it on a tower, reception would improve drastically.

Which antenna is a better performer? The 4228, or the 91XG?

My system is only about 27 feet up...so I bet if I could get it on a tower, reception would improve drastically.

Which antenna is a better performer? The 4228, or the 91XG?

Once you're about 10' above local obstructions (trees, hills inside of 1 mile, houses) the gains from more antenna height are minimal.

The 4228 and the 91XG are about the same. However, they are different designs so one may outperform the other in specific situations. The 91XG is preferred for rotor installs because it is lighter and has lower wind load. Most rotors (Ham-based ones excepted) burn out quickly spinning a 4228.

Bohn,

I'm located in Plover, so I belever Eau Claire is even further than GB =)

Reu

Rue,
I live in Rapids and have had no problems getting channel 13 in the past. I use the 4228 with the CM 7777 preamp roof mounted and pull Wausau in the 90's and Eau Claire in the 60's. I bought a rotor but found aiming the antenna at Eau Claire will pull Wausau in 70's and get NBC fine. I have not put this antenna on the roof of our new house yet but have tried the smaller version in the attic and get Wausau great and even the analog NBC, but not the digital. I live near a large amount of tall trees now which i think is causing the problem. Madison and Green Bay just don't work unless i install a tall tower but i could get La Cross and even Iowa on good days go figure?? You might have better luck in Plover with Green Bay, I know at my parents with a 40ft tower i could get channel 2 from Green Bay with no problems. Please look over in the LaCrosse/Wausau thread too. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8419512#post8419512

Go to www.antennaweb.org first and see what type of antenna they recommend, then report back.


Thanks Ram

I've checked on the site my location is about 7-65miles from the broacast antennas.

The furthest one
violet - uhf KTLN-DT 47.1 IND NOVATO CA 308° 65.4 47

The closest one being
yellow - uhf KRON-DT 4.1 MNT SAN FRANCISCO CA 293° 40.4 57

What is the difference between the

Yellow UHF
Red UHF
Blue VHF
Violet UHF
Violet VHF

Thanks

I live in the 5th floor of a 6-story building on the North side of downtown St. Paul, MN. Here's my AntennaWeb reading:

* yellow - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 32
* yellow - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 35
* yellow - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 44
* yellow - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 340° 8.2 50
* green - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 22
* red - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 7.7 26
* red - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 7.7 21
* red - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 344° 7.7 34
* red - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 344° 7.7 16

So far I've tried a Silver Sensor and a Godar Electronics Super Antenna I (a combination dipole/yagi). I'm having trouble getting channels 2, 11, 17, 41 (which I can do without) and 45. 11 and 45 I can get sporadically by moving the antenna, but it's not a workable solution.

I'm stuck using whatever I get indoors but I'd be willing to try a small outdoor model like an Antennas Direct DB2/DB4 or a Winegard PR-9012 (http://www.nesselectronics.com/images/1/pdf/WINPR-9012.pdf). My only windows face Southwest, unfortunately, and all the stations are a few degrees West of due North.

Any suggestions?

Here is my antennaweb download for 61571:
Antenna
yellow - uhf WMBD 31 CBS PEORIA IL 234° 6.9 31
* yellow - uhf WMBD-DT 30.1 CBS PEORIA IL 233° 6.9 30
yellow - uhf WEEK 25 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 25
* yellow - uhf WEEK-DT 25.1 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 57
yellow - uhf WTVP 47 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 47
* yellow - uhf WTVP-DT 47.1 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 46
yellow - uhf WYZZ 43 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 43
* yellow - uhf WYZZ-DT 43.1 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 28
yellow - uhf WHOI 19 ABC PEORIA IL 251° 8.6 19
* yellow - uhf WHOI-DT 19.1 ABC CREVE COEUR IL 251° 8.6 40
yellow - uhf WAOE 59 MNT PEORIA IL 307° 3.3 59
* yellow - uhf WAOE-DT 39.1 MNT PEORIA IL 215° 4.7 39
red - uhf W50DD 50 TBN PEORIA IL 217° 11.8 50
blue - uhf W51CT 51 TBN BLOOMINGTON IL 123° 27.3 51
blue - uhf WRSP 55 FOX SPRINGFIELD IL 181° 62.0 55
blue - uhf WBUI 23 CW DECATUR IL 149° 56.6 23
blue - uhf WAND 17 NBC DECATUR IL 149° 60.4 17
blue - uhf WWTO 35 TBN LASALLE IL 33° 48.0 35

I live in a 2 story house with a D* satelite feed into a Sony SXRD 50". I at a minimum want to receive all HD locals in YELLOW. Additional analog outside of Peoria (red/blue) might be a bonus but is certainly not mandatory. I would mount external on the roof. Would a CM 4221 do the trick? What about a AD 1XG instead? I am also concerned about the mount being wind-resistant. I am thinking a DB4, CM 4221, or Winegard PR4400 would be more than sufficient due to the low mileage to all towers around me. Which one would be better? Since my indoor Terk TV-5 works great for all channels (signal strength 93 using the D* signal meter) except WMBD, WHOI, and CW (new), can I setup my system to use the Terk TV-5 for FOX WYZZ and a one of the above antennas mentioned for everything else? What about a pre-amp? If I used a CM 7777, would it overload the signal? Would a Winegard HDP-269 or AP-8800 be a better choice?

I live in the 5th floor of a 6-story building on the North side of downtown St. Paul, MN. Here's my AntennaWeb reading:

* yellow - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 32
* yellow - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 35
* yellow - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 44
* yellow - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 340° 8.2 50
* green - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 22
* red - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 7.7 26
* red - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 7.7 21
* red - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 344° 7.7 34
* red - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 344° 7.7 16

So far I've tried a Silver Sensor and a Godar Electronics Super Antenna I (a combination dipole/yagi). I'm having trouble getting channels 2, 11, 17, 41 (which I can do without) and 45. 11 and 45 I can get sporadically by moving the antenna, but it's not a workable solution.

I'm stuck using whatever I get indoors but I'd be willing to try a small outdoor model like an Antennas Direct DB2/DB4 or a Winegard PR-9012 (http://www.nesselectronics.com/images/1/pdf/WINPR-9012.pdf). My only windows face Southwest, unfortunately, and all the stations are a few degrees West of due North.

Any suggestions?

I think you need to get one on the roof if you can or is going outside of your windows the only option? Do you have other large building around you apartment?

I think you need to get one on the roof if you can or is going outside of your windows the only option? Do you have other large building around you apartment?Unfortunately, I think even outside the windows would be a stretch.

There are other large buildings around, but most are South of me while the transmitters are North. I'm sure I'm still getting multipath from them, but I don't think they're interfering with my line of sight reception.

What is the difference between

Yellow UHF
Red UHF
Blue VHF
Violet UHF
Violet VHF

Thanks
If you click on the colorized block, antennaweb.org provides the fol chart:
http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/antenna.aspx?color=B
also see the fol. additional explanation of the color code system:
http://www.solidsignal.tv/about_CEA.asp

This site lists those antennas CLAIMING to be certifed for the different colors---
although I think that there are many wild claims of overperformance included in these charts:
http://www.hdtvantennalabs.com/hdtv-antenna-zones.php

Various sites list the CEA antenna certification in their list of specs, for example:
http://www.solidsignal.tv/channelmaster_antenna_chart.asp
http://www.solidsignal.tv/winegard_antenna_chart.asp

Many manufacturers, including Antennas Direct, also use a "range" recommendation system:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/hdtv_antenna_selector.html
http://www.antennasdirect.com/HDTV_antennas.html

Here is my antennaweb download for 61571:
Antenna
yellow - uhf WMBD 31 CBS PEORIA IL 234° 6.9 31
* yellow - uhf WMBD-DT 30.1 CBS PEORIA IL 233° 6.9 30
yellow - uhf WEEK 25 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 25
* yellow - uhf WEEK-DT 25.1 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 57
yellow - uhf WTVP 47 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 47
* yellow - uhf WTVP-DT 47.1 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 46
yellow - uhf WYZZ 43 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 43
* yellow - uhf WYZZ-DT 43.1 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 28
yellow - uhf WHOI 19 ABC PEORIA IL 251° 8.6 19
* yellow - uhf WHOI-DT 19.1 ABC CREVE COEUR IL 251° 8.6 40
yellow - uhf WAOE 59 MNT PEORIA IL 307° 3.3 59
* yellow - uhf WAOE-DT 39.1 MNT PEORIA IL 215° 4.7 39
red - uhf W50DD 50 TBN PEORIA IL 217° 11.8 50
blue - uhf W51CT 51 TBN BLOOMINGTON IL 123° 27.3 51
blue - uhf WRSP 55 FOX SPRINGFIELD IL 181° 62.0 55
blue - uhf WBUI 23 CW DECATUR IL 149° 56.6 23
blue - uhf WAND 17 NBC DECATUR IL 149° 60.4 17
blue - uhf WWTO 35 TBN LASALLE IL 33° 48.0 35

I live in a 2 story house with a D* satelite feed into a Sony SXRD 50". I at a minimum want to receive all HD locals in YELLOW. Additional analog outside of Peoria (red/blue) might be a bonus but is certainly not mandatory. I would mount external on the roof. Would a CM 4221 do the trick? What about a AD 1XG instead? I am also concerned about the mount being wind-resistant. I am thinking a DB4, CM 4221, or Winegard PR4400 would be more than sufficient due to the low mileage to all towers around me. Which one would be better? Since my indoor Terk TV-5 works great for all channels (signal strength 93 using the D* signal meter) except WMBD, WHOI, and CW (new), can I setup my system to use the Terk TV-5 for FOX WYZZ and a one of the above antennas mentioned for everything else? What about a pre-amp? If I used a CM 7777, would it overload the signal? Would a Winegard HDP-269 or AP-8800 be a better choice?

I live in Kalamazoo and my problem is with trying to get the Grand Rapids locals. The north side of my house has several tall trees close by, there's a mix of UHF/VHF and CBS is on channel 2. I've been considering going another route - South Bend for OTA. I have a clear southwest view across the lake I live on toward 216 degrees where all the towers are located - they are all UHF channels at a distance of 50 miles.

Here's what Mike at Solid Signal says:

I recommend the Terrestrial Digital 43xg antenna. You need a Mast, Mount, and a CM 7777pre-amp!

I'm going to mount it on my DirectTV dish.

Anyone out there in similar circumstances using this set-up? How's it working for you?

Craig

1) Would a CM 4221 do the trick?

2) What about a AD 1XG instead?

3) I am also concerned about the mount being wind-resistant. I am thinking a DB4, CM 4221, or Winegard PR4400 would be more than sufficient due to the low mileage to all towers around me. Which one would be better?

4) Since my indoor Terk TV-5 works great for all channels (signal strength 93 using the D* signal meter) except WMBD, WHOI, and CW (new), can I setup my system to use the Terk TV-5 for FOX WYZZ and a one of the above antennas mentioned for everything else?

5) What about a pre-amp?

6) If I used a CM 7777, would it overload the signal?

7) Would a Winegard HDP-269 or AP-8800 be a better choice?

1) Most probably.

2) The 91XG? Overkill. I can't find a 1XG.

3) The wind load of those three antennas is likely to be the same.

4) This is a good choice, but you'll need a Channel Master Jointenna tuned to channel 28 for it to work. A Jointenna has two inputs - one for channel 28, and another for "everything else."

5) Why do you think you need a preamp? They're not magic devices that automatically make reception better. In your case, I suspect they would make things much worse.

6) Definitely. No doubt about it. Overload city.

7) The 269 is a better choice if you need amplification, but I don't think you'll need it. Preamps help with weak signals only, and you've got a lot of really strong signals there. I couldn't live without my preamp, but my nearest station is almost 30 miles away. Inside of 20 miles, anything other than the 269 is going to overload.

Here is my antennaweb download for 61571:
* yellow - uhf WMBD-DT 30.1 CBS PEORIA IL 233° 6.9 30
* yellow - uhf WEEK-DT 25.1 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 57
* yellow - uhf WTVP-DT 47.1 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 46
* yellow - uhf WYZZ-DT 43.1 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 28
* yellow - uhf WHOI-DT 19.1 ABC CREVE COEUR IL 251° 8.6 40
* yellow - uhf WAOE-DT 39.1 MNT PEORIA IL 215° 4.7 39
...
Would a CM 4221 do the trick? What about a AD 1XG instead?
You are not very far from your primary stations. Keep it simple before you worry about pre-amps which unless you have a long cable run or distant stations (> 40 miles) you want to try to pickup.

For starters, a Zenith/Philips Silver Sensor should outperform that Terk. You may get all the digital stations on the list above with just a Silver Sensor even with the Fox station in the opposite direction. But if you want to go with a roof or attic setup, a better choice in this situation would be the CM 4221 or the AntennasDirect DB-2. My CM4221 picks up 2 stations at over 40 miles in the backside of the antenna, so the flat screen design with bowties does have a good backlobe response. I expect either antenna up on a roof or in a attic would way outperform the Terk TV-5 and get all your local stations aimed in the 240 degree azimuth direction. Get the antenna, try it out, and see what you can get without a pre-amp or other pricey gear.

You are not very far from your primary stations. Keep it simple before you worry about pre-amps which unless you have a long cable run or distant stations (> 40 miles) you want to try to pickup.

For starters, a Zenith/Philips Silver Sensor should outperform that Terk. You may get all the digital stations on the list above with just a Silver Sensor even with the Fox station in the opposite direction. But if you want to go with a roof or attic setup, a better choice in this situation would be the CM 4221 or the AntennasDirect DB-2. My CM4221 picks up 2 stations at over 40 miles in the backside of the antenna, so the flat screen design with bowties does have a good backlobe response. I expect either antenna up on a roof or in a attic would way outperform the Terk TV-5 and get all your local stations aimed in the 240 degree azimuth direction. Get the antenna, try it out, and see what you can get without a pre-amp or other pricey gear.

I keep hearing about the comparisons between the DB-4 and the 4221. I have even seen testing done and it looks as if the 4221 is slightly better. However, it seems individuals prefer the DB-4. I don't know if the 3x more expensive price factor is really worth the DB-4 besides it being made out of aluminum instead of galvinized steel. Thoughts?

I keep hearing about the comparisons between the DB-4 and the 4221. I have even seen testing done and it looks as if the 4221 is slightly better. However, it seems individuals prefer the DB-4.
Who is that? From my reading of this entire forum, the CM4221 (aka 3021) is recommended much more frequently than the AD DB-4. The price difference is probably the main reason for the popularity of the CM4221 over the DB-4, but both get a lot of positive reports on here. Since CM does not offer a 2 Bay bowtie version, the AntennasDirect DB-2 gets recommendations for situations where a smaller size is needed.

I live in the 5th floor of a 6-story building on the North side of downtown St. Paul, MN. Here's my AntennaWeb reading:

* yellow - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 32
* yellow - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 35
* yellow - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 44
* yellow - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 340° 8.2 50
* green - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 340° 8.2 22
* red - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 7.7 26
* red - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 7.7 21
* red - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 344° 7.7 34
* red - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 344° 7.7 16

So far I've tried a Silver Sensor and a Godar Electronics Super Antenna I (a combination dipole/yagi). I'm having trouble getting channels 2, 11, 17, 41 (which I can do without) and 45. 11 and 45 I can get sporadically by moving the antenna, but it's not a workable solution.

I'm stuck using whatever I get indoors but I'd be willing to try a small outdoor model like an Antennas Direct DB2/DB4 or a Winegard PR-9012 (http://www.nesselectronics.com/images/1/pdf/WINPR-9012.pdf). My only windows face Southwest, unfortunately, and all the stations are a few degrees West of due North.

Any suggestions?
One minor update: Solid Signal recommended a Winegard Sharpshooter SS-3000. I've read mixed reviews of this model, so I'm hesitant to try it. Winegard claims increased resistance to multipath and better reception without line-of-sight, which are 2 of my problems.

Would a CM4221 be a better bet?

I am interested in a CM 4221. I would prefer to install on my roof, too. What typical roof mounts are people using for this type of antenna? Would a Winegard DS-3000 be acceptable with wind or weight of the antenna?

ok heres one 25 miles from portland antennaweb says i should eb able to get yellow I Am assuming w/o antenna but heres the kicker.... I have a metal roof and I am not getting anything inside with a regualr indoor non amplified antenna because of roof do i need to go outside ?

What's the deal with grounding of antennas? I have a Terk HDTVo attached to my deck and pointing in the right direction, but I haven't connected it inside my house yet. I've found several semi-conflicting bits of advice on grounding

1) Install ground rod and grounding block, connect cable through it at the point nearest the house, and connect rod to block.

2) Do 1), and also connect the mast to the same ground wire

3) Same as 1, but skip the grounding rod and connect to hose bib or house electrical ground. I looked around the neigborhood and this is how the DirectTV guys do it, but they could be lazy rather than right. (the plumbing is all-copper to the ground point)

4) Do 1, and 2, AND connect the ground wire directly to the incoming household electrical ground. One source claims the model electrical code requires this. It's extremely impractical, though -- this is a townhouse and the antenna is located on the opposite side of the house.

Other considerations: the Terk is on its 18" mini-mast, and it's at the level of the middle of the first floor (open basement below and one story above), so I'd expect far less of an issue than with a big antenna on the roof. The association might have issues with my driving in a ground rod, as well.

One minor update: Solid Signal recommended a Winegard Sharpshooter SS-3000. I've read mixed reviews of this model, so I'm hesitant to try it. Winegard claims increased resistance to multipath and better reception without line-of-sight, which are 2 of my problems.

Would a CM4221 be a better bet?
Why don't you do something that apparently no one else has done with the pricey SS-3000 SharpShooter--
buy both and do a "credible" test of one vs the other? Then return the "loser"...and let us know the results...
I would be curious as to whether (at 8 miles away) the SS-3000's internal amplifier is overloaded or not ....

This appears to be the ONLY SS-3000 reception report in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5973045&highlight=SS3000#post5973045
It lost out to the Silver Sensor....but YMMV....

Which is why again and again you'll find people recommending the wide beamwidth CM-4221 (and it's kissing cousins the PR-4400 and DB-4) as providing the biggest bang for the buck....unless you truly NEED a big antenna and it's attendant mounting and pointing problems.

High guys. I just got a free upgrade to a Dell W3201c LCD, and it has an ATSC tuner. I need an antenna, but only for my HD channels, as I get my local stations through DirecTV. Here's my antennaweb info:
* yellow - uhf KOAT-DT 7.1 ABC ALBUQUERQUE NM 62° 6.8 21
* yellow - uhf KOB-DT 4.1 NBC ALBUQUERQUE NM 64° 6.8 26
* yellow - uhf KLUZ-DT 41.1 UNI ALBUQUERQUE NM 64° 6.8 42
* yellow - uhf KNME-DT 5.1 PBS ALBUQUERQUE NM 63° 6.8 35
* yellow - uhf KTFQ-DT 14 TFA ALBUQUERQUE NM TBD 320° 18.1 14
* yellow - uhf KASA-DT 2.1 FOX SANTA FE NM 63° 6.8 27
* yellow - uhf KASY-DT 50.1 MNT ALBUQUERQUE NM 63° 6.8 45
* yellow - uhf KWBQ-DT 19.1 CW SANTA FE NM 63° 6.8 29
* yellow - vhf KCHF-DT 10.1 FMN SANTA FE NM 353° 41.2 10
* green - uhf KAZQ-DT 32.1 IND ALBUQUERQUE NM 62° 6.8 17
* red - uhf KNAT-DT 24.1 TBN ALBUQUERQUE NM 62° 6.8 24I'm ridiculously close to the towers on the Sandia Crest, less than 7 miles for the transmitters I care for. I swung by the RadioShack down the street, and all they had was a RadioShack "HD Ready" Antenna (Hoop and Extendable Dipoles, I'd post a link if I could).

With the amp turned off, it pulls in PBS and CBS (antennaweb doesn't show CBS for some reason) fine, barely finds ABC and NBC, and can't find Fox at all. It doesn't pull in any HD channels with the amp on. I'm wondering if I'd do better with an HD specific antenna, like the Silver Sensor or the Terk indoors. Any thoughts? Given my proximity, I'd think I'd be doing much better than I am. My neighbor's second story blocks line of sight, if that matters.

You are so close that a Silver Sensor should perform very well. You are probably too close for an amplified antenna, you are probably getting signal overload either in the amp or at the tuner when you switch on the amplifier.