The Official AVS Antenna Topic! [Text View] - Page 21

Shygnome

09-28-06, 05:04 PM

I have D* HD10-250 with all local SD and a FOX HD waiver. I need to add OTA to pickup HD for these three:
* green - uhf KOTV-DT 6.1 CBS TULSA OK 161° 51.0miles 55
* green - uhf KJRH-DT 2.1 NBC TULSA OK 161° 51.0miles 56
* blue - vhf KTUL-DT 8.1 ABC TULSA OK 158° 55.4miles 10

I'd prefer to do a third story attic install, but can go mast on roof if absolutely need be. Any suggestions recomendations as to antenna and assessories would be greatly appreciated.

FYI - here are the remainder of stations available, but lower in priority.

* red - uhf KOED-DT 11.1 PBS TULSA OK 161° 51.0 38
* red - uhf KMYT-DT 41.1 MNT TULSA OK 161° 50.6 42
* red - uhf KOKI-DT 23.1 FOX TULSA OK 161° 50.6 22
* violet - uhf KWHB-DT 47.1 REL TULSA OK 161° 51.0 48
* violet - uhf KDOR-DT 15.1 TBN BARTLESVILLE OK 149° 17.0 15

TheRatPatrol

10-01-06, 03:52 PM

Whats the best way to distribute an OTA signal to 5 different things, all in the same room? Is there some sort of "splitter amp" that you can buy?

Thanks.

newsposter

10-02-06, 08:09 AM

years ago i bought a R/S distribution amp for about 30 bucks but it only did 4 outputs..perhaps they have updated it since then. I'd even try home depot, they had some interesting stuff when i was there looking for a certain box I needed.

jerryhiggins

10-02-06, 11:16 AM

Zip code: 36024

I just set up a 4228 on my roof with a CM 7777 amp and I am trying to get WAKA which is about 58 miles away according to antennaweb. I was able to pull it in Saturday during the day at 68% but it dropped out that night. Sunday it was cloudy and I was getting a reading of 62%.

I want a more reliable signal and was wondering if a XG91 might provide a little better signal.

Thanks.

Neil L

10-02-06, 09:53 PM

wondering if a XG91 might provide a little better signal.Probably not. At channel 55 the 4228 and XG91 have about the same gain. Your reception situation likely has more to do with terrain than antenna choice.

PinkSplice

10-03-06, 04:06 PM

I currently have a Radio Shack VU-190XR that I'm testing. This monster seems to have only fractionally better performance on VHF than my CM 4228's. No pre-amps can be used in my location, as I am 3 miles from the Shrewsbury antenna farm. Tropo ducting is supposed to be good tonight, and I'm hoping for decent reception. If the -190 doesn't deliver (it's been up for two months), it's history, as it is a monster (13 ft boom). Where should I list it for sale? It's too big to ship economically anywhere outside of the local area. Somebody in a rural area will probably appreciate it, and I have a 7778 VHF/UHF pre-amp to go with it.

moogs69

10-06-06, 12:52 AM

Hi,
I know pretty much nothing about antenna's, but gleaning this topic it seems that parabolic antenna's are highly directional and therefore good for OTA reception. Can a Bell ExpressVu satellite antenna be used for OTA reception? Any advice on configuring it? Can I hook it up in tandem with an RCA dipole yagi (I think that is what it is called, it's the basic RCA CANT711 shaped like a tube, please correct me if wrong), and will that result in better reception?

Thanks very much.

Neil L

10-06-06, 08:45 AM

seems that parabolic antenna's are highly directionalYes, this is true. and therefore good for OTA reception.Sometimes, but not always. Can a Bell ExpressVu satellite antenna be used for OTA reception?Won't be very effective at UHF frequencies and much less so at VHF. Those little dishes are very good for microwave frequencies, though. Any advice on configuring it?For OTA, you will need a parabola with a diameter of five feet minimum and possible much larger. Can I hook it up in tandem with an RCA dipole yagi (I think that is what it is called, it's the basic RCA CANT711 shaped like a tube, please correct me if wrong), and will that result in better reception? I doubt it. BTW, what is your present reception like? If you are using the RCA dipole, and getting anything at all, simple using a better outdoor antenna would be better.

Andrew K

10-06-06, 12:42 PM

I just noticed this thread and I was wondering if anyone could help me with my question. I'm trying to get a few weak digital signals that my TV can't lock onto. Channels 20 and 41.

I'm currently using a silver sensor with a pre-amplifier. I've tried moving this thing up, down, right, left, 360 degrees, out a window in the direction of the transmitter, and whatever. But I haven't successfully locked on to the low signal.

An outdoor antenna is out of the question for me, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me from experience what they think is the best indoor antenna setup.

nybbler

10-06-06, 01:08 PM

Antennaweb.org for Akron doesn't show a channel 20 or 41. Reception might not be feasible for some reason.

Andrew K

10-06-06, 02:00 PM

Antennaweb.org for Akron doesn't show a channel 20 or 41. Reception might not be feasible for some reason.

WFMJ-DT 20 and WKBN-DT 41 from Youngstown...

Both are weak, but can be received by analog.

Neil L

10-06-06, 05:36 PM

Both are weak, but can be received by analog.Both are using less power for digital than analog, and their digital antenna are a little lower on the tower than the analog. If you can see a very snowy picture with analog, you probably don't have good enough signal-to-noise ratio for digital to work.

And, at 45 (or so) miles from the towers, an indoor antenna just isn't going to work very well.

moogs69

10-06-06, 08:57 PM

Thanks for the advice.

For OTA, you will need a parabola with a diameter of five feet minimum and possible much larger.
Unfortunately, that will not be possible, as I live in an apartment building.

BTW, what is your present reception like? If you are using the RCA dipole, and getting anything at all, simple using a better outdoor antenna would be better.
The ATSC is not too bad when it is out on the balcony, I'm on the 19th floor and have a clear view of the transmission towers for the 2 ATSC channels I get, the NTSC is not as good. In both cases I often have to move it, which is somewhat annoying. That is why I was thinking of hooking it up in tandem with another antenna, and living in an apartment my options are limited.

ddingle

10-07-06, 11:44 AM

I was thinking the other day that I have probably installed a thousand or more television antennas over the last 25 years or so.
It is still interesting to continue to gain insight in the field.
I just got back from Naples,Florida. I found myself checking some outdoor satellite and tv antenna connections on the roof of a 14 story condo directly on the Gulf of Mexico. We had initially installed the dish and 4 bay bowtie,but after the hurricanes last year I had a local guy repair the "Gainmaster" dish. As you might imagine warm salty breezes consistently blow in on the rooftop antenna site.
Corrosion potential on all connectors is at an extremely high level,so it is a good test bed for prevention techniques.
The local guy reused our snap and seal connectors,but do not use the "waterproofing" nut with a rubber seal that we had put on originally. Unfortunately he did not tighten the connections on the lnbs very well either.
The end result was internal corrosion to the point of a dead short on the Sat C lnb connector. I cleaned it with "Cramolin" a contact cleaner and for the first time I have observed "bubbles" of cleaning action as the agent interacted with the corrosion. The satellite is fine now
The UHF 4 bay antenna actually has survived a couple of pretty big Hurricanes! The 75 to 300 ohm balun seemed in good condition until I pulled off the boot to check the snap an seal connection. It looked like the bottom of an old boat! Barnacles of corrosion on the outside of the connector. It would seem the boot amplified the corrosion effects. Once inside the boot it sits there and builds up. It would probably make sense not to use a boot under most circumstances when using snap and seals or the like.
The "waterproofing" nut was intact. When I inspected the inside of the connector, it was basically spotless!! The combination of the nut and the general seal of the back of the snap and seal had really kept out the salt. Corrosion was only superficial on the outside of the connector. So it looks like the Snap and Seal with the additional "nut"seal would be highly recommended in any outdoor reception installation and "boots" on baluns may do more harm than good. Hope this helps. Dallas

ddingle

10-07-06, 12:10 PM

Here are some pictures of the snap and seal connectors and waterproofing seal. Rather small,but hopefully viewable.

usnret

10-07-06, 04:34 PM

rcodey

10-07-06, 08:20 PM

PinkSplice

10-08-06, 12:08 AM

ddingle

10-08-06, 09:30 AM

Sounds like you were at Pelican Bay.
Yes! Our client just bought one of the new condos next door at "Aqua". He currently resides on the top floor of the one of the Pelican Lakes buildings next door.
His new Home Theater is going to be(hopefully) pretty darn cool.
It is a couple of years to completion though

Tower Guy

10-08-06, 02:29 PM

Need some advise. We reside in Edinburg, ND. We are approx. 35 miles S of the Canadian border. We would like to receive CBC Manitoba via OTA. Any suggestions as to what type of antenna system might work?? No real mountains between us and the border (no silo's either), so wondering if it would be possible. Thank you.

Possible, yes; easy, no. First you need to know the channels and locations.

I use http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp
For your location I used 48.497, -97.862

The data shows CBWT (analog) on channel 27, 1000 KW at 1066' height, 89 miles away at 10 degrees azimuth.

KCPM is also on channel 27 digital, 18 KW at 314' height, 52 miles away at azimuth 134 degrees.

The two channel 27s will interfere with each other. If you really wanted to try it, you'd need a tower (or silo), and a large UHF antenna with a preamp. There is a way to add two Channel Master 4228 antennas together to get slightly more signal, but the combination can also null out the interfering signal from another direction. Here's how to do it: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html
The side by side combination is configured to reduce provide a null for you on channel 27 in the proper direction to eliminate KCPM!

It would be a bit easier to get CKY (CTV) on channel 46, at 984' high, 81 miles away at 22 degrees azimuth.

ChocoLab

10-10-06, 02:18 PM

MAX HD

10-11-06, 08:22 AM

Hi, I've surfed and surfed but haven't really found any info on this...

I need a hi-band VHF antenna, and the two best candidates are the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 and the Winegard YA1713. The two are similar, and I can't decide which would be best.

The Winegard is a little shorter and has fewer elements.

The Antennacraft is longer, has more elements, and has a folded dipole, which I really prefer.

I know most people might say Winegard right off the bat, but I think that's mainly because they know Antennacraft makes Radio Shack's antennas and they didn't have a good experience with them. But I think Antennacraft has some good designs that they don't make available to RS -- and frankly I like my RS Fm antenna better than the Winegard 6065 I purchased. The Winegard is kind of flimsy and despite being a "better" antenna, it really doesn't work much if any better than the cheaper and smaller Antennacraft-made RS antenna.

If anyone has any experience with these two antennas, I'd really appreciate hearing about it. :)

I've used both and found them to be nearly equal in performance.The Antennacraft a slight edge at my particular location on certain channels.

If you like the folded-dipole design,I have some Funke PSP.1922's available.They are incrementally better than the above models(13ft length/higher gain/better front/back)).I use two in a horizontal stack with modified booms.They seem to be holding up well to the elements.Here's a pic of one installed(top antenna),courtesy of forum member cpcat.Send me a pm if interested.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&attachmentid=35151

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/NewTowerAntennas/

snomis79

10-11-06, 12:53 PM

Rammitinski

10-11-06, 07:04 PM

This is my info from antennaweb:

yellow - uhf WHRO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 261° 11.9 16
yellow - uhf WTVZ-DT 33.1 MNT NORFOLK VA 261° 11.9 38
yellow - uhf WVEC-DT 13.1 ABC HAMPTON VA 261° 9.8 41
yellow - uhf WPXV-DT 49.1 i NORFOLK VA 261° 11.9 46
yellow - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 261° 11.9 40
red - uhf WGNT-DT 27.1 CW PORTSMOUTH VA 258° 9.7 50
red - uhf WAVY-DT 10.1 NBC PORTSMOUTH VA 266° 12.1 31
red - uhf WVBT-DT 43.1 FOX VIRGINIA BEACH VA 266° 12.1 29

We live in an apartment building on the first floor. It has to be an indoor antenna. We already have the following antenna from radio shack we're using on our old non-HD tv: Antenna @ Radio Shack (http://www.radioshack.com/sm-uhf-vhf-fm-indoor-antenna-with-12-position-fine-tuning--pi-2062081_tb-techSpecs.html)

Is that going to be enough? I've been looking at the Zenith/Philips everybody has, which looks like it would get us the same channels.

Opinions?If you're getting good reception on the analog channels with the RS model, the chances are good that you'll have acceptable results with it on the digitals. Have you got a digital tuner yet?

As for the Silver Sensor, it's probably the best indoor, set-top antenna made. Since your stations are basically all in the same direction, and they're all UHF (which is only what the SS will receive), it should be as good a choice as any, if not better. Just find the right (sweet) spot for it and you should never even have to touch it or turn it. If you can find one at a Circuit City near you, you can always return it easily enough should it not do the job.

chris83

10-12-06, 10:44 AM

newsposter

10-13-06, 09:00 AM

goldrich

10-13-06, 09:15 AM

someone wrote to me saying:

Old style antennas weren't designed for digital signals. A new one that will do the job can be found for less than $100

I'm not an antenna expert but I thought antennas aren't "designed" for digital today and all the hype is marketing BS and that they all are fine for analog or digital?

Analog and digital stations use the same UHF and VHF frequencies. There is no difference between an analog antenna and a digital antenna. The only difference seems to be in PR hype and price! What a scam.............

PinkSplice

10-13-06, 09:57 AM

fmcomputer

10-13-06, 12:30 PM

I have a Samsung DLP system with a OTA tuner using a UHF antenna installed on my roof. It gets great reception local HD. When I hookup the antenna to the OTA on a E* VIP622 I can not lock on to all scanned stations that the Samsung turner receives. Whats the deal..
*E sent second box. Same thing. Are the OTA tuners on the VIP622 not as good as my Samsung tuner.

afiggatt

10-13-06, 02:30 PM

Here are my results from Antenna Web:

Red-UHF KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 35
Red-UHF WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 21
Red-UHF WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 32
Red-UHF KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 26
Red-UHF KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 44
Red-UHF KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 50
Red-UHF KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 34
Red-UHF KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS MPLS MN 325° 34.2 Miles 16
Blue-UHF WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MPLS MN 324° 34.8 Miles 22

They suggested a "Medium Directional rooftop with pre-amp"

I live in a pretty heavily wooded area. All things being equal, I'd prefer to try a good INDOOR antenna first. I currently just have a little Jensen indoor, similar to the TV910. It does an "okay" job, but there's frequently a lot of breakup.
All of your stations are currently broadcasting (digitally) on UHF, but looking up the FCC information, KMSP 9 and KARE 11 will switch their digital signal back to VHF 9 & 11 when the analog shutdown occurs in February, 2009. So if you are looking for an antenna setup that will still work then, you need to get both UHF and upper VHF (7 to 13).

The Channel Master 4228 8 Bay bowtie would do the job & work fine with the upper VHF stations in 2009, but it is a large and heavy outdoor long range antenna which requires a very sturdy mount. If you are getting the stations with breakups with a small indoor loop antenna, that suggests a smaller medium range indoor or attic setup is very likely do the job. Another option is the CM 4221 4 Bay bowtie UHF antenna which is smaller & lighter and I expect it will get the upper VHF stations in 2009. The cm4221 can go in the attic if that works Other suggestions are the AntennasDirect DB-2 two bay bowtie mounted either inside or outside or take a shot on a Zenith Silver Sensor mounted with a clear view in the directions of the broadcast towers. The Silver Sensor will outperform that Jensen UHF loop antenna you have. You could always add a modest size upper VHF antenna in 2009 if the UHF antenna proves not to be reliable enough.

bourmb

10-13-06, 03:04 PM

Does the 4228 have a narrower bandpath range than the 4221? I have the 4221 in the attic and it pulls in every local channel perfectly along with ABC and FOX from Springfield (note all that are highlighted BOLD). I am wondering though, if I could pull in more channels and not loose the ones I already have if I had the 4228. Attic mount is only option, too.

yellow - uhf WMBD 31 CBS PEORIA IL 234° 6.9 31
* yellow - uhf WMBD-DT 30.1 CBS PEORIA IL 233° 6.9 30
yellow - uhf WEEK 25 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 25
* yellow - uhf WEEK-DT 25.1 NBC PEORIA IL 233° 7.5 57
yellow - uhf WTVP 47 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 47
* yellow - uhf WTVP-DT 47.1 PBS PEORIA IL 238° 8.5 46
yellow - uhf WYZZ 43 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 43
* yellow - uhf WYZZ-DT 43.1 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 105° 13.8 28
yellow - uhf WHOI 19 ABC PEORIA IL 251° 8.6 19
* yellow - uhf WHOI-DT 19.1 ABC CREVE COEUR IL 251° 8.6 40
yellow - uhf WAOE 59 MNT PEORIA IL 307° 3.3 59
* yellow - uhf WAOE-DT 39.1 MNT PEORIA IL 215° 4.7 39
red - uhf W50DD 50 TBN PEORIA IL 217° 11.8 50
blue - uhf W51CT 51 TBN BLOOMINGTON IL 123° 27.3 51
blue - uhf WRSP 55 FOX SPRINGFIELD IL 181° 62.0 55
blue - uhf WBUI 23 CW DECATUR IL 149° 56.6 23
blue - uhf WAND 17 NBC DECATUR IL 149° 60.4 17
blue - uhf WWTO 35 TBN LASALLE IL 33° 48.0 35
violet - uhf WICS 20 ABC SPRINGFIELD IL 182° 61.6 20
violet - vhf WILL 12 PBS URBANA IL 139° 60.6 12
violet - vhf WCIA 3 CBS CHAMPAIGN IL 129° 65.9 3

PinkSplice

10-13-06, 04:10 PM

texasbrit

10-13-06, 04:45 PM

chris83: the CM4221 and the DB-2 are very poor on VHF-hi. You need the CM4228 or a two-antenna setup to handle the move back to VHF-hi of 9.1 and 11.1. The CM4228 will go in most attics and it has the advantage of being easy to aim in an attic, unlike the large VHF/UHF combination antennas which need several feet of attic space to rotate in.

RoninNOLA

10-14-06, 04:04 PM

Novice here.

I have Charter cable in Mandeville, LA which doesn't carry FOX on HD. On the advice of a co-worker, I purchased a $40 Phillips Indoor / Outdoor HDTV antenna from Wal-Mart about three weeks ago.

Hooked it up, set it in my window (indoors) and on first try was able to get a bunch of channels in HD (including FOX, ABC, UPN, PBS). Occasionally, the picture would tile or freeze but I would come back if I relocated the antenna.

I noticed that a couple of the channels dropped off (PBS) but I mainly wanted FOX to catch the NFL and FOX was still working fine.

Since about Wednesday this week, I've been unable to catch any HD channels. Thought may something went wrong with the pre-amp so I returned the antenna and got a new one but still having the same problems. I've attempted to re-memorize the channels but I only pick up analog (and most channels are fuzzy). All of the digital channels indicate "no signal or off-air". What's off is that when the TV is scanning and memorizing the digital channels, it appears to be adding the digital channels but they don't tune in after the memorization process is completed.

Since everything worked so well at first hook-up and I am now unable to tune any digitial channels, I'm starting to wonder if there is something wrong with the tuner on my TV (Mitsubishi DLP).

I did a check on antennaweb and all of the DT channels in my area are in the violet range for antenna type (with the exception of WUPL-DT, MNT) which is blue. So they do recommend a large-directional w/pre-amp for my location.

Anyone have any words of wisdom? Should I get my digital tuner checked, or did I maybe just get lucky during those first few weeks with conditions that were very good for reception in my area. Hate to schedule a service call for the TV if it's an antenna issue and there is nothing wrong with my TV.

Thanks.

MAX HD

10-14-06, 04:29 PM

TotallyPreWired

10-14-06, 04:31 PM

I purchased a $40 Phillips Indoor / Outdoor HDTV antenna from Wal-Mart about three weeks ago.
I did a check on antennaweb and all of the DT channels in my area are in the violet range for antenna type (with the exception of WUPL-DT, MNT) which is blue. So they do recommend a large-directional w/pre-amp for my location.
My guess is that your 1st attempt was a fluke(maybe a good atmospheric day :p ) Wisdom? Forget testing the TV at this point and concentrate on the antenna. Follow Antennaweb's advice and start with an external antenna. Preamp? Not unless your 1st test doesn't give you satisfactory results and/or your cable run is long.
....jc

RoninNOLA

10-14-06, 08:12 PM

Words of wisdom....sure.....get a Channelmaster 4228 antenna and put it outdoors,or maybe in an attic space 20-30ft above ground level.Also,a CM 7777 preamp may be needed.

Absolutely nothing wrong with your present equipment.

Thanks.

Like I said, I realize it was a cheap antenna but what threw me off was that it not only worked great immediately upon installation but on numerous occasions over a three week period. Being unfamiliar with OTA HD it seemed odd that I could go from consistently getting everything with this antenna to getting nothing.

jtbell

10-15-06, 04:04 AM

Because of the all-or-nothing nature of digital reception, if you're on the borderline for a particular station, weather conditions can swing you back and forth over the line, and not just on a day-by-day basis.

I have one station in particular that I monitor as a sort of "benchmark" for atmospheric conditions. It's about 85 miles away (I have a large combination UHF/VHF antenna on the roof), and over the long term I'd say that I can receive it in the evening and at night about 60% of the time (but never during the day!). But sometimes I can get it solidly for a week, and then it doesn't show up at all during the next week. Sometimes it's two days "on" and one day "off."

I think I've read somewhere that these fluctuations can be more severe in coastal areas, maybe because of variations in atmospheric humidity.

goldrich

10-15-06, 11:23 AM

rlz2

10-16-06, 03:40 PM

I have been watching over-the-air HDTV in the Philadelphia area for over a year now. I had been using an old Radio Shack antenna with an 80 inch boom mounted on my roof, along with a Philips antenna amplifier which added another 12 db ($19.95 at Walmart). However, I had occasionally experienced a problem with periodic signal drops with one channel or another (the picture then freezes or disappears). I did not have this problem with more than one channel at a time, so I assumed it must be the broadcaster’s problem. I am using an Accurian HDTV receiver (also purchased at Radio Shack, on sale, for $90.) Last winter, this problem of signal drop only happened on the local NBC affiliates digital broadcast. More recently, I noticed it on the ABC broadcast. When the station denied they had a problem, I began to trouble shoot. Not long after this, however, I completely lost the PBS station. The Accurian digital receiver says these kind of problems are due to the antenna or cable. I inspected the antenna closely, and was able to determine that a squirrel had used it to jump to a tree and had bent down one of the elements. Since this had happened twice (and trimming the tree was problematic) I decided to try a newer, encased antenna with no exposed elements—a Radio Shack "Outdoor High Definition TV Antenna Model 15-2185", $49.95. It has a small, built-in amplifier. I thought that this would solve all problems. I was wrong.

Giving a detailed description of my experience may be more than readers of this web site want. I can be emailed, I suppose, by those who want details. Here is a summary of where I stand now after lots of adjustments: I am currently using both of my antennas. The new antenna is mounted on the roof and the old antenna is now in my attic. The old antenna in the attic is connected to my HDTV with 50 feet of the cheapest coaxial cable I could find ($4 for 50 ft.). Incredibly, using this old antenna with the Philips amplifier still provides me with the strongest digital signal for all of the stations but one: the local PBS station. The roof top antenna provides a stronger signal only for the local PBS station. I made this discovery yesterday when I tried to watch the NFL game on Fox in HDTV. The signal from the new antenna would constantly drop off and the picture would freeze. When I connected the TV to the attic antenna, this stopped and I had great signal strength readings. Curiously, while the roof top antenna is supposed to be HD (and compatible with analog broadcasts) I have found that it does a better job on the analog broadcasts than the digital (excepting the PBS broadcast). This has all been quite an aggravation. Oh yes. The new antenna on the roof performed better in the evening. Perhaps something was interfering with it during the day time?

Tower Guy

10-16-06, 07:11 PM

rlz2

10-16-06, 10:37 PM

When I first put the 80 inch antenna on the roof, I could get all the Philadelphia area digital broadcasts but the PBS station (whyy). It was a bit weak, and I needed the little amplifier to secure a strong signal. However, last winter, during the Olympics, the NBC digital broadcast exhibited signal strength drops. This seems to have gone away. But then recently, the CBS station had exhbited this problem. The station claims they are having no problems (if they can be believed) It was then that I noticed that a part of my antenna was bent. A part which sticks upward, vertical from the ground had gotten bent downward, and was preventing me from getting the PBS station (this had happened once before many months ago). I believe squirrels have done this as they jump to and from an overhead tree. I thought a fully encased antenna would be less susceptible to being bent by squirrels, and perhaps would reduce the signal drop problem. At this stage, my old Radio Shack antenna has been opened and closed so often that it is starting to break up (literally). I dare not move it again. I'd buy another if it was not for the squirrels. If I could only get a good PBS signal with the antenna in the attic, it would be fine. I'd either return the new antenna, or point it north to get another PBS station in Allentown, PA. Unfortunately, PBS has stopped broadcasting OTA digitally for a few days. They are making some changes. Maybe it will improve things. This is what they told me this evening:

WHYY-DT is off the air for required technical construction. The station
will return to the air late tomorrow or Weds. When we return to the air
the station will be located on UHF Channel 50. You will need to rescan
your DTV receiver or manually enter Ch. 50. The channel 55 location will
be unused as a result of this transition.

Others in the Philadelphia area may find this information useful.

newsposter

10-17-06, 08:50 AM

rlz2

i'm not sure how far out you are but i'm 40 miles out and have a DB8 and get in everything pretty good except pbs only comes in at night (reliably at least). I've noticed low signal readings on 57 lately in the AM but my PM shows have all come in Ok so far this TV season on that station. I've had virtually no problems on any of the big 5 networks so if you are having any problems with them, it probably is your setup/location.

caveat...most of our stuff is recorded at night but my wife likes rachael ray and oprah and even those come in OTA with 95% reliability. So much so that she's canceled the directv backup feed.

Tower Guy

10-17-06, 09:25 AM

Rammitinski

10-17-06, 12:20 PM

Those Walmart Philips amps are on the high side noise-wise.

Could it be possible that's causing the problem?

FrankVP

10-17-06, 01:26 PM

Another newbie question. I am purchasing a Sony A2000 and I have an unused shortwave
antenna mounted in our attic. Can I use this as an external antenna on the TV?

nybbler

10-19-06, 03:53 PM

No, an antenna designed for shortwave (HF) won't work. TV is VHF and UHF, mostly UHF for digital for the moment.

Neil L

10-19-06, 07:13 PM

I have an unused shortwave antenna mounted in our attic.You must have one HUGE attic. :D As most all the shortwave antenna I've seen are about five time the size of even a VHF antenna. Anyway, nybbler is correct, it's not what you need for TV.

rodder

10-19-06, 08:21 PM

I need some help selecting an antenna for my area. Most of the main networks are on UHF but CBS is now on VHF and I am not sure whether to get a combination or 2 separate antenna. The CEA recommends a small multidirectional. I was planning on mounting the antenna in the attic space. I was looking at the DB4 or the CM4221 but then would need a VHF recommendation. Any help would be appreciated.

By the way this is for a Sony 65" Grand Wega. So I want quality HD reception. I tried the Zenith Silver Sensor with mixed results. Had frame freeze and dropout problems and it was very sensitive to direction.

Following is the station infomation from CEA:
yellow - uhf WTVK 46 CW NAPLES FL 354° 14.8 46
yellow - uhf WTVK-DT 45.1 CW NAPLES FL 354° 14.8 45
yellow - uhf WRXY 49 CTN TICE FL 354° 14.8 49
yellow - uhf WRXY-DT 33.1 CTN TICE FL 354° 14.8 33
yellow - vhf WINK 11 CBS FORT MYERS FL 1° 15.5 11
yellow - vhf WINK-DT 11.1 CBS FORT MYERS FL 1° 15.5 9
yellow - uhf WFTX 36 FOX CAPE CORAL FL 353° 15.5 36
yellow - uhf WFTX-DT 36.1 FOX CAPE CORAL FL 353° 15.5 35
yellow - uhf WGCU 30 PBS FORT MYERS FL 2° 16.6 30
yellow - uhf WGCU-DT 30.1 PBS FORT MYERS FL 2° 16.6 31
yellow - uhf WZVN 26 ABC NAPLES FL 149° 12.9 26
green - uhf WTPH-LP 14 AZA FORT MYERS FL 352° 10.7 14
lt green - uhf W38CO 38 TBN FORT MYERS FL 352° 10.7 38
red - uhf WZVN-DT 26.1 ABC NAPLES FL 1° 17.1 41
red - uhf WBBH 20 NBC FORT MYERS FL 1° 17.3 20
red - uhf WBBH-DT 20.1 NBC FORT MYERS FL 1° 17.1 15
blue - vhf WEVU 4 MNT FORT MYERS FL 308° 8.8 4
blue - uhf WXPX 66 i BRADENTON FL 336° 65.2 66
blue - uhf WDPX-LP 18 i FORT MYERS FL 237° 8 18
violet - uhf WXDT-LP 23 IND NAPLES FL 193° 26.1 23
violet - vhf WTIG-LP 2 i NAPLES FL 191° 18 2
violet - uhf WYDT-CA 32 IND NAPLES FL 193° 26.1 32
violet - uhf WZDT-LP 39 IND NAPLES FL 193° 26.1 39

texasbrit

10-19-06, 08:45 PM

If you use a CM4228 it should give you good reception on frequency 11 as well as on UHF. It's one of the few UHF antennas that give decent performance on VHF-hi (the XG91 is another). And it will probably give you all your digital stations even in the attic - though you may need the CM7777 preamp.
I have an attic-mounted CM4228 in Dallas and it gets good reception on all the main DFW digital stations including a "red" station on frequency 9 and a few "violet" stations.

rgathright

10-20-06, 08:14 AM

texasbrit

10-20-06, 09:54 AM

What's that distance, about 90 miles?? Your problem is the curvature of the earth is blocking the signal - can you get your antenna up any higher?? The 91XG MAY be marginally better than the CM4228 at some frequencies - what channel is the station on? And what are you using for a pre-amp?

rgathright

10-20-06, 09:58 AM

I have the CM7777 pre-amp. It is channel 33.1 (I think) NBC.

texasbrit

10-20-06, 11:03 AM

Do you get any signal at all, and what sort of tuner do you have? Any splitters??

rgathright

10-20-06, 11:34 AM

No splitters and it depends on the weather (I guess) if I get something or not. When I first got it I had a strong signal, then the next day could not get anything.

As you can see in my address I am living/working in Spring. I get to visit our house twice a month, so am limited on time to play with the antenna. I will be there for 7 days around the end of November and will attempt to play around with it more. This is the reason for asking about the (possible 91XG) antenna.

afiggatt

10-20-06, 11:42 AM

I have the CM7777 pre-amp. It is channel 33.1 (I think) NBC.
Is this the NBC station you are trying to get: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WVLA? WVLA-DT broadcasts digitally on UHF 34, analog on 33. The FCC entry shows a STA low power of 1 KW and a construction permit to go to a full power of 1000 KW, but they may have gone full power back in July with the July 1 deadline. You should check with the Baton Rouge locals thread or contact the station to confirm that they are full power before you put a lot of effort into trying to get the signal.

Just how far are you from WVLA-DT? The terrain in that area is fairly flat so that does help with long range pickup, but anything beyond 65+ miles usually becomes a crapshoot with UHF.

texasbrit

10-20-06, 11:59 AM

I think they are at full power although you do need to check.
I think the distance is just over 80 miles which as afiggatt says makes it a crapshoot with UHF because of earth curvature. How high is your antenna, at that range just a few feet can make a lot of difference, and what tuner do you have, newer systems have much better tuners...

rgathright

10-20-06, 12:25 PM

I have the Directv HD200 by Sony receiver.

texasbrit

10-20-06, 01:42 PM

OK, here's what I would do.
1) If possible, try to get some extra height on your CM4228. As I said, even a few feet can have a positive impact at that range.
2) Call DirecTV and ask for an upgrade to the H20 receiver. If you have been a good customer they may do this free of charge - get the new 5-lnb dish installed while you are at it (it is part of the package), you may need it in the future when DirecTV starts broadcasting more national HD channels. The H20 has a very good OTA ATSC tuner, much better than any of the previous generation receivers (including the HD200)
3) If that still does not work, and you are absolutely set on getting the Baton Rouge station, try the 91XG. The danger is it might still not work and you will have spent some money!!

Neil L

10-20-06, 02:04 PM

Is there an UHF antenna that is better than the CM4228? I am trying to pull in the Baton Rouge NBC station which is just out of the range of the CM4228.Let me add my $.02 worth to this discusion. You may well have the best antenna for your situation already. The XG91 is an excellent Yagi with a fairly good corner reflector. Very different in design from the 4228, but the gain figures are about equal. Most of the testing I've seen puts the XG91 slightly better above channel 50, and the 4228 slightly better below channel 50.

Thing is, no receiving antenna "pulls in" a signal. The broadcast antenna pushes (so to speak) the signal your direction. If that signal is not getting to your antenna, it won't matter how much gain your antenna has, it won't send any signal down your lead-in cable. Antennas are kind of like a transformer. They take the RF energy from the air and transform it into a voltage that the lead-in carries to your receiver. The higher the antenna gain the more voltage your tuner sees. If that is still not enough voltage for the tuner to lock on, your pre-amp may boost the voltage enough for the tuner to lock. But, if the signal isn't reaching the antenna, the situation is like 0 X (antenna gain) X (pre-amp gain) still equals 0.

And, yes, at your distance (and mine) from the transmitters, weather conditions, antenna height, antenna aim, and many other factors have a much greater affect on reception than does the choice of antenna.

texasbrit

10-20-06, 02:17 PM

Agree completely with Neil's analysis. There have however been recent reports that the 91XG seems to outperform the CM4228 even at the lower UHF frequencies (despite the gain figures). I have a CM4228 and works great for me, but I am only 42 miles from the transmitters - anyway I have no need to try the 91XG.
The only four variables that you really have control of are antenna height, direction, tuner performance and cable/connector quality. So if your antenna is as high as possible, pointed correctly, you have decent quality RG6 cable and your connectors are in good shape, and you have the best tuner you can get - then not much is left. I have seen reports of people stacking two 91XGs to get an extra 3db, but 3db gain on zero signal is still zero.

MAX HD

10-20-06, 07:56 PM

I currently have the CM4228 and it works great most of the time.

Is there an UHF antenna that is better than the CM4228? I am trying to pull in the Baton Rouge NBC station which is just out of the range of the CM4228.

The most obvious factor to me is how well you can receive WVLA analog on Ch33.If their DT on 34 is at full height and full power you should be able to receive the DT,IF the analog comes in fairly well(color,some snow),AND if there is no other station within 150 miles on Ch34.

Reception past 70mi over flat terrain is iffy for various reasons.The above mentioned antennas will be about equal on 34.The only thing better would be a large Euro Band A.Has around 5db more gain,but you may need A LOT MORE than that,to be reliable.

rgathright

10-20-06, 10:03 PM

The problem is I am in a new neighborhood and the restrictions will not let me go any higher with the antenna even with the FCC rule.

Just will have to wait until the NBC station from New Orleans gets back online.

texasbrit

Due to the B**** Katrina I have two residences now. My main Directv setup is for the Houston area being I am here more than at my actual home. So by getting the HD20 and the dish will not do me any good for the HD locals from Directv. Some of my wife's favorite shows are on NBC, so the reason for trying to get the Baton Rouge station.

cpcat

10-21-06, 08:35 AM

To get significantly better than the 4228 you'll have to either go with a grouped channel (or even single channel) antenna or do a horizontal/vertical stack. The Triax Unix 100 Band A is excellent for channel 34 as MaxHd mentioned. The disadvantage to the grouped channel antenna obviously is that you give up wide band performance.

There are preamps which are better than the 7777 (i.e. Research Comms. HDTV LNA) as well but any improvement will be incremental not monumental.

texasbrit

10-21-06, 11:22 AM

I was suggesting that somehow you get the H20 just for the improvement in OTA tuner performance...

cpcat

10-21-06, 07:20 PM

I was suggesting that somehow you get the H20 just for the improvement in OTA tuner performance...
The H20 has a very good OTA ATSC tuner, much better than any of the previous generation receivers (including the HD200)

Can you expand on that? I wasn't aware of the H20 having the rep of being any better than prior tuners for long distance. If you're referring to the LG-built box, I'd suspect it would actually perform slightly worse for long distance as it's designed for rejecting multipath.

greywolf

10-21-06, 10:51 PM

cpcat

10-21-06, 11:40 PM

The 5th generation LG chipset doesn't reject multipath but uses it. It takes all the signal reflections and fits them together in phase. The H20-600 uses it and gets rave reviews for its OTA tuner. The trick is to get one that doesn't burn your fingers and constantly reboot.

Are you sure you aren't confusing the 5th gen LG with the so called "Casper" chip which never materialized?

I've heard others report the 5th gen LG is less than stellar with long distance reception. What have you compared it with and from how far?

greywolf

10-22-06, 08:31 AM

All I have are reports on the difference between the H20-100(RCA) and the H20-600(LG) for long distance pickup and my memory of a description of the LG chip function. There have been a number of people who had -600s replaced because they were constantly rebooting due to a software problem. The 100s which replaced them caused problems getting long distance OTA for a number of respondents.

cpcat

10-22-06, 09:07 AM

Unfortunately, as manufacturers/designers have tried to deal with multipath for those at close range, the tuners have gotten a little less sensitive. I have 3rd and 4th gen LG as well as whatever is in the H10. I've also used the Walmart/USDigital box as well as whatever is in my Panny 50PX50U plasma. For long distance, the 3rd gen LG has been the best overall for me. The 4th gen LG does seem a little better with the one signal I have which I believe is multipathed (based on it's analog equivalent).

It doesn't sound like I'll be trying the 5th gen LG anytime soon unless it comes out in another box. That's good info on the other D*box as well, thanks. Guess I won't be getting that one either.

The older RCA ATSC11 model seems to have the rep of very high sensitivity but I've never used it and they are hard to find.

ctdish

10-22-06, 12:16 PM

I've heard others report the 5th gen LG is less than stellar with long distance reception. What have you compared it with and from how far?

I haven't seen any indication that 5 gen chips are less sensitive than earlier types. I compared the performance of a 5 gen AutumnWave USB HDTV GT receiver with several others here. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=715013&highlight=ctdish HDTV GT I have one channel FOX on 54 that is just above the noise here and the 5 th gen chip did just fine.
John

cpcat

10-22-06, 01:24 PM

I haven't seen any indication that 5 gen chips are less sensitive than earlier types. I compared the performance of a 5 gen AutumnWave USB HDTV GT receiver with several others here. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=715013&highlight=ctdish HDTV GT I have one channel FOX on 54 that is just above the noise here and the 5 th gen chip did just fine.
John

I wasn't aware the 5th gen LG chip was used with that tuner. I'm assuming you are referring to another chipset which has remained highly sensitive in later generations or is this actually the LG chip?

The problem has been that tuners which do better with multipath tend to be less sensitive. I've not seen anything that suggests this has been solved.

Edit: I see that that is the LG chip. What would be nice for me to see is a comparison of this to their 3rd and 4th gen chips. Also, it sounds like you were experiencing a fair amount of multipath for whatever reason which certainly should favor the 5th gen LG.

ctdish

10-22-06, 02:20 PM

stanger89

10-22-06, 02:32 PM

cpcat

10-22-06, 02:39 PM

I only get to experment with multipath from the Providence channels because with a large antenna up high that is what I receive. These stations are 50 miles away and not line of sight due to the hills of New England. My experience is that at long distances I always get some multipath. I watch the four major networks from Providence because they come in the best. I don't have a good way to measure the SNR of the channels but channel 54 went from usable about 60% of the time to 90% when I changed the antenna preamp from an AP4700 to a Research Comms. 0.4 dB N.F. one.

Interesting. My reception is from 50-130 miles and I only have one channel with any degree of multipath and it is at around 55 miles and out of a very mountainous area (Hazard KY). I assume the digital is multipathed because the analog equivalent is. My remaining analogs are just weak/snowy so I assume their digital equivalents are similar.

I have also found the RC preamps to be very good at long distances. I use the 9248 for hi band vhf, have used the 9250 for uhf (up to the point where a near lightning strike fried it), and now use the 9253 for uhf. Both the 9250 and 9253 are slightly better than the Sitco wide band uhf preamp which is in turn a fair amount better than the CM 7777 for uhf in my experience.

cpcat

10-22-06, 03:07 PM

Hello all,

I posted this in my local reception forum, but no bites yet, and I'm sure you guys have some suggestions:

I'm having a bit of trouble getting a couple locals, 2, 7, and 9 (on 51, 55, and 52). 27/28 and 35/32 come in perfect, with (IIRC) 100% strenght on every tuner I have. The others, 2, 7, and 9 are right on the threshold, being unreliable, working most of the time on some tuners and only partially on others.

The setup is a 10' V/UHF antenna from Radioshack an ancestor or the VU-120XR I believe (I stole it from my parrents). That feeds an RS amp (had laying around), amp is place within 6' of cable of the antenna. From there it feeds a splitter and then onto an Avermedia A180, MyHD MDP-130, and a Dish VIP211.

As near as I can tell, without having a compass handy, I'm aimed at 2,7,9,35, and I've moved the antenna around to maximize the signal. Just looking for suggestions. Is there any way to tell if the problem is lack of strengh vs multipath?

I have no interest in analog (read VHF) reception, just digital, and I'm wondering if a better, smaller (I don't need 8-feet of wasted VHF antenna) would serve me better.

Thanks

I'm assuming with that size antenna you are around 50+ miles from your stations. That being the case, you could certainly improve things for uhf by going with a dedicated uhf antenna such as a CM 4228 or wide band Yagi/corner reflector i.e. Antennasdirect XG91. You could also improve your performance with a better preamp from either CM (7777) or Winegard.

Don't forget that some of your locals may switch frequencies after analog shuts off so you might should keep the combo antenna in storage. If the analogs are 2, 7, 9 with corresponding digitals of 51, 55, and 52 it's very likely you'll need to have vhf capability as probably both 7 and 9 will continue to be vhf for digital after the changeover. The "core" channels of 2-51 will be the only ones available at that point so they will be forced to go to something other than 55 and 52. Go to http://www.tvradioworld.com for links to this info for your locals. Look under "complete FCC info" and then under the certificates for channel election.

Multipath is evidenced by ghosting on your analog channels. Weak signals without multipath will look snowy.

ctdish

10-22-06, 03:14 PM

I only can see multipath on analog stations with the antenna misaimed. Fox's analog station is on channel 64. It has moderate snow, somestimes a bit herring bone or a sort of texture, but nothing that could be caused a ghost. The peaks and dips on tne digital stations vary a little from minute to minute and a lot from day to day, but the only way i have found to see that amount of multipath is with the spectrum analyzer.
John

stanger89

10-22-06, 03:17 PM

I'm assuming with that size antenna you are around 50+ miles from your stations.

Actually more like 30:

KCRG-DT 9.1 325° 24.1 52
KRIN-DT 35.1 325° 24.1 35
KGAN-DT 2.1 325° 24.1 51
KWWL-DT 7.1 333° 28.8 55
KFXA-DT 28.1 279° 25.8 27

The 35 and 28 I get fine. I believe I'm aimed at about 325. The amp is mainly compensate for the splitter.

I guess my real question is if my reception hardware is "rolling off" above 35, the only channels I have trouble with are the relatively high frequency ones.

Don't forget that some of your locals may switch frequencies after analog shuts off so you might should keep the combo antenna in storage.

I doubt I'll toss it, but I'm not really worried about it.

cpcat

10-22-06, 03:51 PM

Actually more like 30:

KCRG-DT 9.1 325° 24.1 52
KRIN-DT 35.1 325° 24.1 35
KGAN-DT 2.1 325° 24.1 51
KWWL-DT 7.1 333° 28.8 55
KFXA-DT 28.1 279° 25.8 27

The 35 and 28 I get fine. I believe I'm aimed at about 325. The amp is mainly compensate for the splitter.

I guess my real question is if my reception hardware is "rolling off" above 35, the only channels I have trouble with are the relatively high frequency ones.

.

Most likely the gain is actually increasing with frequency if it's a typical yagi/corner reflector design. The beamwidth also narrows, though, so aim becomes more critical in the upper frequencies. You might double check your aim.

nybbler

10-22-06, 04:03 PM

One reason for the lower frequency channels doing better than the high ones would be if you've got a hill between you and the transmitting antennas; the higher the frequency the less tolerance to an obstructed line of sight. But your splitters and/or your amp or cables could be at fault also. Or it could be coincidence; those channels could be transmitting at lower power.

Another possibility with yagis is you've actually aimed a sidelobe at the station, rather than the main lobe. The sidelobes move with frequency.

667dark

10-27-06, 11:58 AM

Neil L

10-27-06, 12:41 PM

There are two other digital stations in my area but the tower is over a mountain but only 15 miles away.

Will an antenna be able to pull in the digital channels?No. Antenna don't pull channels. :D If the signal gets to your antenna, however, you will be fine. And you may well get some defraction over the mountain. Could try setting the rabbit ears on the roof as an experiment, and see what you get.If so what antenna would you all recommend.What channels are these two stations on?

afiggatt

10-27-06, 01:11 PM

I'm new to HDTV and new to these boards. I have been looking into getting an antenna for ota broadcasts and need some advise. I live in a narrow forested canyon on the slopes of a mountain. I have the PBS and FOX tower in view and antenna web tells me the tower is only 2 miles away. I get the PBS hd channel with rabbit ears easily. Antenna web tells me that PBS is the only digital station I can receive.
The default Antennaweb settings are very conservative for digital reception. Go to the antennaweb address & zip page, enter your address, click on the options link at the bottom of the page and enter in something like 100 feet or higher into the height box. I have to enter around 150 feet to get a close match to the digital stations that I get with a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay and CM 7777 pre-amp mounted in my attic.

If you give us your zip code, we can look up the local broadcast stations for you and see if some are at low power or not broadcasting digitally at all (Class A stations for example). Also, find out what channels these stations are broadcasting their digital signal on: UHF, upper VHF (7 to 13), low VHF (2 to 6)?

Buckeyefan

10-27-06, 01:24 PM

I'm about to install an antenna on my gable end of my roof. I have a two story house in Columbus (maybe 15 miles northeast max from the major stations). My problem is I've got a 40' maple in the path of downtown Columbus and where my antenna will be. I'd like to use a larger boom antenna, but am limited to where I can place it, as I live on a corner in a suburban neighborhood.

Is it better to put a larger antenna behind a tree, or a smaller unit off the side of the house (lower) in the path of the signal? I'd really like a UHF/VHF antenna if possible.

Please help, as this is going up before the Buckeye game tomorrow and Time Warner doesn't do ABC in HD.

Thanks in advance.

Neil L

10-27-06, 01:36 PM

Buckeyefan,

At your close range, I would go with the smaller antenna in the clear. You shouldn't need a large antenna, and trees may not hinder reception, but they can. Or wind may blow branches into or onto the antenna and break it.

rsv1000

10-27-06, 01:48 PM

I am looking for some advice. I am about 55 miles from the one channel that I still need to pick up (ch 19). I would like to keep it in the attic if possible even though I know that hurts my siginal.
I have been looking at info about several different 8-bay antennas; the Antennas Direct DB8, Winegard PR 8800, and the CM 4228. The 8800 seems like it might be the best for the channel that I need and it is also the least expensive, but I haven't seen it discussed much.
Please help me...

667dark

10-27-06, 03:18 PM

afiggatt

10-27-06, 03:54 PM

Thanks for your help and good sugestions. My zip is 59803 I am about 2 miles from 59801 where there is a line of sight to the three digital stations I am trying to get. The channels are 8.1 13.1 and 36.1. Two are uhf and one vhf.
Hmm, interesting - Missoula, MT. Yep, you are not near a top 100 DMA city! :D

From antennaweb, for a street somewhere in your zip & plugging in a silly high antenna height, I get 4 stations:
* yellow - uhf KUFM-DT 27.1 PBS MISSOULA MT 94° 3.1 27
* yellow - vhf KPAX-DT 8.1 CBS MISSOULA MT 349° 13.9 7
* green - uhf KECI-DT 13.1 NBC MISSOULA MT 349° 13.9 40
* lt green - uhf KTMF-DT 36.1 ABC MISSOULA MT 349° 14.0 36
I see there is a Fox affiliate in Missoula, KMFF 17, but the FCC database only shows an application for a digital flash cut for their remote translator, not for the main station. But I also see that you have found the locals thread, so perhaps someone can help you find out what the deal is with the station or you can contact the station. The FCC database (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html) also shows some of the stations are at low power.

You are obviously in a challenging situation for TV reception. You will need the maximum height you can get up on a roof with a good medium to long range upper VHF/UHF antenna. If it was not for the mountain, I would suggest the Channel Master 4221 4 bay. Small enough to mount high up on a pole. But you may need maximum antenna gain for even a chance of success. Hope someone else can make a good suggestion for what might work for you.

texasbrit

10-27-06, 04:03 PM

The CM4221 is very poor at VHF-hi (channel 7). You would probably need a CM4228 to get that channel, or a VHF/UHF combination antenna.

667dark

10-27-06, 04:09 PM

Thanks afiggatt. Great information. Yes Missoula is not the center of the ota HD world. :p

I called the fox station and they do not expect to be broadcasting a digital signal until the end of next year. I have dish network for local stations now. As I understand it the digital stations for Missoula are not available on the dish. The dish signal is so compresses anyway that I would prefer the ota if possible. Is the CM4228 a posibility for me?

afiggatt

10-27-06, 04:45 PM

The CM4221 is very poor at VHF-hi (channel 7). You would probably need a CM4228 to get that channel, or a VHF/UHF combination antenna.
I would not call the CM4221 "poor" for VHF 7. While it is not by no means the best UHF antenna which also can get the upper VHF channels, I get good picture quality with a CM4221 for analog stations 7 and 9 from 16 miles away. I also get a digital VHF 12 station located behind the antenna from some 46 miles away. VHF 7 will propagate over a mountain ridge better than the UHF channels, so he is not likely to need a long range VHF antenna, but one with good UHF gain.

But, yes, the CM 4228 is better for long range and has more gain for upper VHF channels. But it has a much narrower beamwidth, and 667dark has a PBS station located some 100 degrees off in azimuth from the rest. The station may be close enough that the CM4228 will pick up the station, but it may not. The CM4228 is also rather heavy & large and will require a very sturdy outdoor mount to handle the snow and wind loads that one is likely to get in Montana. OTOH, that will be a concern for any antenna 667dark puts up, just more so for the CM4228.

667dark, in case you have not checked out this website, it has a lot of useful info on antennas: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html.

rungefamily

10-27-06, 07:16 PM

Neil L

10-27-06, 07:32 PM

Is it just HD that you have lost? Are you still getting SD digital? Still getting analog stations?

rungefamily

10-27-06, 10:04 PM

Yes. Only HD is lost. Analog comes in.

afiggatt

10-27-06, 10:14 PM

I recently (10/27) lost my local reception. I have a TERK indoor antenna, that up until now worked just fine getting the local feeds in HD. Now my TV just states that the signals are not available.
I'm in the DC area and all the digital local stations are on the air. No problem getting them, although we do have heavy rains moving through the area. I would suggest you try a rescan with your ATSC receiver. Check the Baltimore-Washington locals thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=517400) if you are not sure about the status of the DC stations.

rungefamily

10-27-06, 10:34 PM

afiggatt

10-27-06, 11:17 PM

afiggatt--thanks. I also read back a few pages--it appears that during summer months, indoor antennae seem to work well. With the fairly drastic weather change over literally the past few days here, it doesn't surprise me. Unfortunately, I don't have any way to put in an outdoor unit.
Which model Terk antenna do you have? I'm wondering if your problem is that you had a borderline signal which dropped below the threshold with the heavy weather. There may be a better indoor antenna you can use. Or if you have an attic, put an antenna there. With a CM 4221 in my attic, the DC stations come in fine at 16 miles and the Baltimore stations come in pretty reliably at 43 miles, although WBAL 11 will suffer dropouts in poor weather. If you also provide your zip code, we can make recommendations for the antenna setup.

rungefamily

10-27-06, 11:36 PM

afiggatt

10-28-06, 10:53 AM

TERK HDTVA is the model. I never had an issue on any digital or HD channel until last night. Never a dropout, but now I get nothing. I did a rescan and got nothing. Pretty wierd. I am in Ashburn and not much further out than yourself. I have no attic as I am in an APT. Oh ya....20148
If the digital stations are still out, you should try to clear the ATSC receiver channel list. Disconnect the antenna at the TV or STB and do a full scan to clear the list. Then reconnect the antenna, check all the coaxial connections, and then do another scan.

You have the Terk copy of the Silver Sensor which is a good indoor UHF antenna. Better than most of the other Terk models. If you need to stick to an antenna which can fit indoors, the AntennasDirect DB-2 will offer better performance than the Terk. You will have to create a mount for it as it is sold as an outdoor antenna. If you look at the chart on the HDTVprimer website located here:http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html, you will see the DB-2 (line L) has 1 to 4 dB more gain than the Silver Sensor (I). Click on the links for the two antennas for charts and more info.

texasbrit

10-28-06, 02:01 PM

I would not call the CM4221 "poor" for VHF 7.

Well, it looks like its performance on VHF is worse than "rabbit ears" so I would call that a "not recommended" at least. Look at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

There is a section looking at the performance of UHF antennas on VHF. You will see that "rabbit ears" are shown with a gain of -2 to -6db on VHF-lo and around -6db on VHF-hi. The CM4221 numbers are 0db on channel 13, -18db on channel 7, and -25db or worse on VHF-lo. The antennaweb requirements for "yellow" channels are -15db on VHF-hi and -25db on VHF-lo. So the CM4221 is marginal on yellow VHF-lo at best, and certainly worse than "rabbit ears".

Of course the "yellow" category covers a very wide range of stations - if you have a high-power or close in station then there will be no problem with the CM4221 - if your station is at the extreme edge of "yellow" then you could have problems. And everyone's situation is different, so all these numbers are only approximate. I am just suggesting a note of caution when hoping to use the CM4221 for VHF-lo;
you might be disappointed.

And yes, you are right that moving to the CM4228 reduces the beamwidth and so would cause a problem if the stations are spread widely.

rungefamily

10-29-06, 05:31 PM

afiggatt

10-29-06, 06:59 PM

Afiggatt--
Thanks--I'll give the DB-2 a try. I just hope it isn't my TV tuner. Is there any way to verify that before I go through this? I only wonder about this because reception was perfect watching TV on Wednesday, then Thurs. evening we turned on the TV to crap reception in analog.
If the picture quality has gone to crap on the analog stations and you cannot get the digital channels, you have a problem. Could be the receiver or a bad connection. First step is to check all the connections from the antenna to the tuner - disconnect and reconnect them. Check the antenna as well. What ATSC tuner are you using? STB, built in to the TV?

Buckeyefan

10-29-06, 07:28 PM

Quick couple of questions - First off, I got my CM 3018 for the Buckeye game Saturday but didn't get it mounted due to high winds. I was able to pick up the game quite nicely by just setting the UHF part on my deck! That alone picked up over 20 stations. I can't wait to get it mounted on the roof.

1) I bought a 100' run of RG6 in white. Lowes nor Home Depot had quad shield RG6 in white, and my entire house is white with white trim. The cable needs to hug the gable rake and travel down a corner. Is this ok, or should I have gone with quad shield? (I had some RG59, but didn't want to risk all this work for a paper thin cable).

2) My roof top is approximately 28' at the gable. I plan on using a 5' pole. After the bracket is mounted, the antenna will probably be 30' up (gable mount bracket). Should I purchase a 10' pole instead? Will it make that much of a difference being 35' in the air as opposed to 30'? I'm about 15 miles from downtown Columbus, and I have a pretty clear shot from here. Most of the stations I was pulling in from the deck were weak other than ABC.

rsv1000

10-30-06, 08:16 AM

texasbrit

10-30-06, 08:51 AM

If you look here http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html you will see that the 8800 is shown to be marginally better than the other antennas at channel 19 but drops off above that so is not the best general choice. Attic mounting for 55 miles is not a good choice, you can get 50% or more signal loss in the attic. But before spending money, do you know if you have any chance of getting this station even with the best antenna? Go to antennaweb.org and put in your exact address, then cut and paste the results into your reply to this post.

tyromark

10-30-06, 11:17 AM

Buckeyefan - I understand RG6 is fine, and quad-shield unnecessary. As for the mast height, people say much of the hit-or-miss nature of reception comes in the vertical direction as well as horizontal. If you have a 10' mast that is one piece, why not hold it up there at the mount and try lowering the mast to see if there's any difference? Just experiment a few minutes. There may be a sweeter spot a couple of feet lower than the max... And the lower the mast the less wind (remember Saturday) damage potential.

FreeBaGeL

10-30-06, 11:23 AM

Wow this looks like a great thread going here, lots of good info but I have a few more specific questions.

I live in Central Florida (Gainesville) and I will be switching to E* this week and HD locals are not available in my area. E* has said that if I have an outdoor OTA antenna they will attach it for me when they install my satellite dish.

Below is the list of digital stations available in my area via antennaweb. Being able to pick up the ABC, CBS, and FOX stations are a must for me. I've been playing around with an indoor Silver Sensor antenna and can pick up ABC no problem, but despite looking like it should come in easily I have not been able to pick up CBS nor have I been able to pick up FOX (which is further away).

My condo complex has several two story buildings and there are quite a few trees nearby. What antenna should I be looking at? I would also prefer something multi-directional that I do not ever have to rotate.

If it helps, my zipcode is 32607. Is there a good solution out there that will for sure pick up at least the channels listed below (although PBS is much less important than the others)? Any outside chance of pulling in Jacksonville or Orlando's FOX/NBC HD (neither even show up on antennaweb for me)?

Thanks in advance.

DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
* yellow - uhf WCJB-DT 20.1 ABC GAINESVILLE FL 189° 6.7 16
* yellow - uhf WGFL-DT 28.1 CBS HIGH SPRINGS FL 273° 11.0 28
* yellow - uhf WUFT-DT 36.1 PBS GAINESVILLE FL 1° 5.3 36
* yellow - uhf WOGX-DT 51.1 FOX OCALA FL 173° 19.3 31

rgathright

10-30-06, 12:21 PM

I was suggesting that somehow you get the H20 just for the improvement in OTA tuner performance...

Well my Sony HD200 may have bite the dust. Will I have to change the dish out if I order the H20?

rsv1000

10-30-06, 02:34 PM

Here are my results from antennaweb.com

yellow - 41.1 FOX LOUISVILLE KY 323° 2.2 49
yellow - 3.1 NBC LOUISVILLE KY 356° 3.0 47
yellow - 11.1 ABC LOUISVILLE KY 331° 2.5 55
yellow - 58.1 MNT SALEM IN 323° 2.2 51
yellow - 15.1 PBS LOUISVILLE KY 354° 2.9 17
yellow - 32.1 CBS LOUISVILLE KY 356° 3.0 26
yellow - 38.1 PBS LOUISVILLE KY 354° 2.9 38
red - 21.1 i LOUISVILLE KY 173° 20.5 8
blue - 34 CW CAMPBELLSVILLE KY 163° 58.6 34

Note:
The above listing is a conservative prediction of stations received. Depending on the specifics of your installation, you may be able to receive stations that do not appear in this list.

I know that ch19 (34.1) is not listed, but it being broadcasted from Campbellsville, KY. And I have picked it up before using a Terk HDTVo mounted outside about 5' off the ground, but I was only getting about 35-50 signal strength. So, I know it is there.

What do you think?

cncjay

10-30-06, 02:50 PM

Greetings Folks,

I'm seeking help here in the Antenna HD OTA section, perhaps one of you experts can help diagnose the issue.

ZIPCODE: 91789 (Outskirts of Los Angeles, 30 miles East of downtown Los Angeles, located in the City of Walnut). There is a gradual incline that blends into a small hill behind my house. In addition, the neighbor has a large tree (wouldn't you know it) that is in the general direction of where the TV transmitters are located (Mount Wilson)

Utilizing Antennaweb.org, it displays NO digital channels available, which I'm not surprised given the hilly terrain (and of course, the neighbor's huge tree ;-)). Despite seen that, I ventured out last year and purchased a Channel Master CM4228 and the Channel Master Antenna Rotor. The antenna is attached to the chimney of a single story house. It probably extends another 5 ft from the top of the chimey, an oveall 15 ft from the ground. With the antenna rotor and the Channel Master 4228, I am able to pick up a good percentage of the HD/digital channels from over the air broadcast channels. CBS/ABC/NBC/WB seem fairly stable. PBS (One from Los Angeles County (KWHY) and the other, from Orange County (KOCE) was a hit or miss. Seems like I get one at and not the other depending on the time of day etc etc. Once in a while I get both of them. Nonetheless, either one available is just fine. I cannot pick up FOX whatsoever.

I have an LG Over the Air HD box. The signal strength bar seems to be right below the half mark. There are no actual percentage values displayed. One side is labeled as "bad", the other side as "good".

Dilemma:

I recently purchased a Sony HD Over the Air unit (DHG-HDD250) which also has the recording capabilities in HD. I basically replaced the LG set top box with the Sony. With the Sony unit, I've lost 98% of my HD channels. I only pick up one or two obscure 'digital channels". As it appears, perhaps, the LG set top box has a better tuner in comparing to the Sony. None of the network channels nor the PBS channels can be picked up with the Sony unit.

Given what I have as my configuration, can anyone please make a recommendation, suggestion, or an improvement to my current configuration that will help improve the reception. I'm thinking of raising my antenna another foot or two and see if increasing the height is of help. Would selecting a different antenna be of help ?

I stongly feel all the HD material I want is available over the air and shouldn't have to pay my cable company or subscribe to a satellite service but given where I live and the terrain conditions around me are as such, then I will look into a pay solution.

Regards,
Jay

jeffloby

10-30-06, 03:07 PM

Quote by RSV1000

"AD DB8, Winegard PR 8800, or CM 4228
Here are my results from antennaweb.com

yellow - 41.1 FOX LOUISVILLE KY 323° 2.2 49
yellow - 3.1 NBC LOUISVILLE KY 356° 3.0 47
yellow - 11.1 ABC LOUISVILLE KY 331° 2.5 55
yellow - 58.1 MNT SALEM IN 323° 2.2 51
yellow - 15.1 PBS LOUISVILLE KY 354° 2.9 17
yellow - 32.1 CBS LOUISVILLE KY 356° 3.0 26
yellow - 38.1 PBS LOUISVILLE KY 354° 2.9 38
red - 21.1 i LOUISVILLE KY 173° 20.5 8
blue - 34 CW CAMPBELLSVILLE KY 163° 58.6 34

Note:
The above listing is a conservative prediction of stations received. Depending on the specifics of your installation, you may be able to receive stations that do not appear in this list.

I know that ch19 (34.1) is not listed, but it being broadcasted from Campbellsville, KY. And I have picked it up before using a Terk HDTVo mounted outside about 5' off the ground, but I was only getting about 35-50 signal strength. So, I know it is there.

What do you think?"

I have had both a Winegard PR8800 and a Channel Master 4228. The Channel Master 4228 beat the Winegard 8800 hands down. I live about 30 miles north of Knoxville on I-75. It is a mountainous area so I feel it is farther than posted by antennaweb taken the terrain into account. The 4228 pulls in all the channels available including the VHF channel 7 and it holds a stronger and more consistent signal. The Channel Master 4228 is also stronger for me on channels 40 and above.

Thanks, Jeff

afiggatt

10-30-06, 03:32 PM

If it helps, my zipcode is 32607. Is there a good solution out there that will for sure pick up at least the channels listed below (although PBS is much less important than the others)? Any outside chance of pulling in Jacksonville or Orlando's FOX/NBC HD (neither even show up on antennaweb for me)?
You are in a tricky situation with 4 stations in different directions. Punching in a high antenna height for your zip (click on options on the webantenna.com page), shows the analog NBC station and the other stations in Jacksonville to be around 67 miles away. WTLV-DT NBC 12 is broadcasting on VHF 13 and the FCC database service contour map for the full digital power entry (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WTLV) shows Gainesville at the outer edge. Antennaweb is not showing it because there is still a low power entry for the station. If you had a house, you could probably get WTLV-DT with a long range roof mount antenna.

But you are in a condo and I can't tell from your posting if you have windows or a back balcony in the direction of the ABC station while the CBS station is looking through the building or not. Do you have a back deck that you can put an antenna on that has a clear view - more or less - from 173 to 273 degrees in azimuth? You already have a good indoor antenna in the Silver Sensor. The next step up would be the AntennasDirect DB-2 which has a broad beamwidth and might get the 3 core stations if you have a spot with the minimum amount of building obstruction to place it.

FreeBaGeL

10-30-06, 05:37 PM

You are in a tricky situation with 4 stations in different directions. Punching in a high antenna height for your zip (click on options on the webantenna.com page), shows the analog NBC station and the other stations in Jacksonville to be around 67 miles away. WTLV-DT NBC 12 is broadcasting on VHF 13 and the FCC database service contour map for the full digital power entry (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WTLV) shows Gainesville at the outer edge. Antennaweb is not showing it because there is still a low power entry for the station. If you had a house, you could probably get WTLV-DT with a long range roof mount antenna.

But you are in a condo and I can't tell from your posting if you have windows or a back balcony in the direction of the ABC station while the CBS station is looking through the building or not. Do you have a back deck that you can put an antenna on that has a clear view - more or less - from 173 to 273 degrees in azimuth? You already have a good indoor antenna in the Silver Sensor. The next step up would be the AntennasDirect DB-2 which has a broad beamwidth and might get the 3 core stations if you have a spot with the minimum amount of building obstruction to place it.

The CBS direction is in fact the complete opposite direction as to where my TV is located. IE my TV is located in the back of the condo and the CBS signal comes from the direction facing the front of the condo, so that could be it but a few of my buddies have had no problems picking CBS and FOX, neither of which I can pick up with my indoor antenna.

I would have no problem with an outdoor antenna mounted with the dish if I could be sure I would get FOX, CBS, and ABC digital signals prior to making the switch over to satellite. Beyond that I'd be looking at a more involved roof mount which quite frankly I'm not sure I have the know-how to do, and the different directions provide a twist as well since I would prefer not to have to worry about the orientation of the antenna especially if it is mounted outside.

texasbrit

10-30-06, 06:49 PM

Quote by RSV1000

"AD DB8, Winegard PR 8800, or CM 4228
Here are my results from antennaweb.com

yellow - 41.1 FOX LOUISVILLE KY 323° 2.2 49
yellow - 3.1 NBC LOUISVILLE KY 356° 3.0 47
yellow - 11.1 ABC LOUISVILLE KY 331° 2.5 55
yellow - 58.1 MNT SALEM IN 323° 2.2 51
yellow - 15.1 PBS LOUISVILLE KY 354° 2.9 17
yellow - 32.1 CBS LOUISVILLE KY 356° 3.0 26
yellow - 38.1 PBS LOUISVILLE KY 354° 2.9 38
red - 21.1 i LOUISVILLE KY 173° 20.5 8
blue - 34 CW CAMPBELLSVILLE KY 163° 58.6 34

Note:
The above listing is a conservative prediction of stations received. Depending on the specifics of your installation, you may be able to receive stations that do not appear in this list.

If you go back to antennaweb and increase your height (click on "options") by say 150 ft, see if 34.1/19 appears. Antennaweb is very conservative when it comes to digital stations so increasing your height is a good way of seeing which stations you MAY be able to receive.

For 34.1/19 you will certainly need a good UHF antenna, I would suggest you go for the CM4228 or the Antennas Direct 91XG. One problem is all your other stations are in the opposite direction so that suggests you will need a rotator. However, they are so close to you that MAYBE the CM4228 would get the stations off the backside of the antenna, just point it at 34.1/19 and see what you get.
Normally with some stations very close and others at far fringe distance you would not be able to use a preamp. However since the close stations would be behind you a preamp might actually help - but if you use a rotator forget the preamp, you will overload severely when pointing at the Louisville stations.

I am sure some of the other posters on this forum will have comments on this!!!

Davinleeds

10-30-06, 08:12 PM

Agree. I can receive 40 mile away signal when my 4228 is in opposite direction. But with dropouts.

rsv1000

10-31-06, 10:15 AM

afiggatt

10-31-06, 10:47 AM

The CBS direction is in fact the complete opposite direction as to where my TV is located. IE my TV is located in the back of the condo and the CBS signal comes from the direction facing the front of the condo, so that could be it but a few of my buddies have had no problems picking CBS and FOX, neither of which I can pick up with my indoor antenna.
How much have you experimented with moving the Silver Sensor antenna around? If the CBS station is in the direction of the front of the condo, get a 25' RG-6 cable and barrel connector (if you do not have a long co-axial cable - BTW, Lowes or Home Depot are cheaper for cable than the Best Buy type stores) and move the antenna closer to the front of the condo or closer to a window facing more or less in the direction of the CBS and the Fox station if possible. Indoor or attic setups will have dead zones for reception for weaker signals, have to be prepared to move the antenna around until you find a good spot. You could have air ducts and the A/C system inside the condo between your antenna and the stations which are blocking the signal.

jeffloby

10-31-06, 10:58 AM

Thanks guys,

I think I will try an 8-bay antenna, how does the CM4228 compare with the Antennas Direct DB8 (jeffloby post: The Channel Master 4228 beat the Winegard 8800 hands down)? Should I go ahead and get a preamp, and if what kind?

I can not compare the 4228 and the DB8, but check out this website. It has good info. Overall I feel the 4228 is the best out there.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

FreeBaGeL

10-31-06, 08:59 PM

How much have you experimented with moving the Silver Sensor antenna around? If the CBS station is in the direction of the front of the condo, get a 25' RG-6 cable and barrel connector (if you do not have a long co-axial cable - BTW, Lowes or Home Depot are cheaper for cable than the Best Buy type stores) and move the antenna closer to the front of the condo or closer to a window facing more or less in the direction of the CBS and the Fox station if possible. Indoor or attic setups will have dead zones for reception for weaker signals, have to be prepared to move the antenna around until you find a good spot. You could have air ducts and the A/C system inside the condo between your antenna and the stations which are blocking the signal.

Ah, thanks. I went ahead and got the means to extend the cable about 40 feet and that did the trick. Was able to pick up all the local OTA stations with my silver sensor in its new location. Most were at about half signal strength with FOX coming in at about 20%. My main concern was that I would switch to satellite and not be able to get my digital locals so this should pretty much clear that up, as it should mean with an ourdoor OTA antenna I should be able to pick all of them up with an even stronger signal (preferably quite a bit stronger), correct?

rungefamily

11-02-06, 08:53 PM

If the picture quality has gone to crap on the analog stations and you cannot get the digital channels, you have a problem. Could be the receiver or a bad connection. First step is to check all the connections from the antenna to the tuner - disconnect and reconnect them. Check the antenna as well. What ATSC tuner are you using? STB, built in to the TV?

I have it built into my Mitsubishi TV. I just got my new antenna from Antenna direct and I"ll see how it works

FreeBaGeL

11-02-06, 09:38 PM

afiggatt

11-02-06, 10:02 PM

My main concern was that I would switch to satellite and not be able to get my digital locals so this should pretty much clear that up, as it should mean with an ourdoor OTA antenna I should be able to pick all of them up with an even stronger signal (preferably quite a bit stronger), correct?
Yes, if you have a location for the antenna that has a view of the direction of the broadcast towers. If you are looking for a compact antenna to mount outside on a wall which has more gain than the Silver Sensor, you should consider the AntennasDirect DB-2.

afiggatt

11-02-06, 10:09 PM

Ok I had my local dish installer out today and was asking him about OTA antennas. I asked if I could just get my own OTA antenna and have him install it and he said yes, but that he could also provide the antenna. He mentioned that there's were "pretty good" but didn't know the model. I assume I'm better off just getting something on my own? Perhaps the 4228 that everyone seems to like?
How far are you from the broadcast towers? The CM 4228 is a long range directional UHF antenna for 40, 60, 70 mile ranges or difficult terrain. If you can give up your zip code, we can make recommendations for your situation.

FreeBaGeL

11-02-06, 11:01 PM

Zip is 32607, all the locals (ABC HD, CBS HD, FOX digital non-HD) are within 35 miles or so. Any chance of picking up the Jacksonville NBC-HD or FOX-HD affiliates?

Buckeyefan

11-06-06, 12:27 AM

After mounting my CM3018 to my roof at the gable end - probably 26 feet in the air unobstructed from downtown Columbus, Ohio, I'm finding the reception to be horrific.

http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/antennas_outdoor_advantage.html

I'd say I'm at most 12-15 miles from all the major stations including Fox. I'm only picking up Fox and ABC in HD with a perfectly clear signal. I've checked my home's position at the county GIF website, google maps, antenna.org, etc... as well as tweaking the antenna at every possible angle. I'm at a point where I'm thinking the antenna I have isn't the right one for HD.

Are these mast antenna's that sensitive that you must be within a few degrees to pick up a station with no distortion? Could it be I'm too close? There's not even leaves on the trees in the distance to affect the signal.

I was expecting 10-20 perfect signals once this antenna went up. I picked up 4-5 when I placed the UHF section of this antenna on the deck last weekend to watch the Buckeye game (ABC doesn't come in on HD with Time Warner Cable, thus the reason to erect an antenna).

I did notice a big difference when moving the antenna a few degrees towards and away from downtown. At one point, ABC totally went out. That was not a good thing during the game.

Would the CM4228 have made that much difference in signal pull? The site says 45 miles for mine, as opposed to 60 miles for the CM4228. As close as I am, I thought I'd get an antenna that would pull in VHF stations (ABC is VHF in Columbus, OH) instead of an all UHF antenna).

Thanks in advance.

Confused in Columbus

jeffloby

11-06-06, 08:11 AM

texasbrit

11-06-06, 09:32 AM

Try a CM4228. It will also pull in VHF. I went thru several antennas before getting the 4228 and it has been the best by far. nbc(4),abc(6),cbs(10) are VHF and fox(28) is uhf in Columbus. The CM4228 will handle these stations, it does for me and I have a weak station that is vhf channel 7 and it comes in fine.
NBC and CBS in Columbus are on UHF not VHF for their digital stations, the only one on VHF is ABC. And everyone is staying on their current digital channel when analog goes away.
From your location, are all the transmitters in the same direction?
The CM4228 is a much better UHF antenna than the CM3018 but at your distance you should not be having these problems. Are you getting zero signal strength on the other stations? Are you using a preamp, if so you may be getting overload...

FreeBaGeL

11-06-06, 10:16 AM

Well, haven't been able to get word on whether or not this will work so maybe I'll just go ahead and give it the old college try with a CM4228 and CM7777. Where's the best place ot purchase these?

afiggatt

11-06-06, 10:42 AM

After mounting my CM3018 to my roof at the gable end - probably 26 feet in the air unobstructed from downtown Columbus, Ohio, I'm finding the reception to be horrific.
...
I'd say I'm at most 12-15 miles from all the major stations including Fox. I'm only picking up Fox and ABC in HD with a perfectly clear signal. I've checked my home's position at the county GIF website, google maps, antenna.org, etc... as well as tweaking the antenna at every possible angle. I'm at a point where I'm thinking the antenna I have isn't the right one for HD.

Are these mast antenna's that sensitive that you must be within a few degrees to pick up a station with no distortion? Could it be I'm too close?
What is your zip code? The CM 3018 is a directional medium to long range antenna with a narrow pickup beam pattern. The key is the spread in azimuth and distances for local stations. The CM 4228 is also a long range directional antenna. If the stations are mostly within 15 miles, the CM 4221 has a much wider spread in azimuth. Checking Columbia, SC I see there is an ABC station at digital VHF 8 which is a drawback for selecting the CM 4221. But if it is under 20 miles and at a decent power level, I would expect the CM 4221 to pick it up.

OTOH, if your stations are only 10 to 15 miles, a Zenith/Philips Silver Sensor indoor antenna combined a rabbit ears may get them all. I suspect your problem is that the CM 3018 is the wrong antenna for your situation.

afiggatt

11-06-06, 10:56 AM

Well, haven't been able to get word on whether or not this will work so maybe I'll just go ahead and give it the old college try with a CM4228 and CM7777. Where's the best place ot purchase these?
Well, no one replied, so maybe you should try to specify what your situation is again. Looking at your zip (32607), you have nearby stations with the Jacksonville stations around 66 miles away. A CM4228 with a CM 7777 might get the Jacksonville stations, but the the signal may well overload on the local stations. Perhaps 2 antennas with a switch? Looking up the NBC station in Jacksonville in the FCC database (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html), it is listed to be broadcasting digitally on VHF 13 at 25 KW which is full power for VHF. So you may be able to get it at 66 miles in the flat terrain of Florida with a rooftop setup.

Buckeyefan

11-06-06, 05:05 PM

What is your zip code? The CM 3018 is a directional medium to long range antenna with a narrow pickup beam pattern. The key is the spread in azimuth and distances for local stations. The CM 4228 is also a long range directional antenna. If the stations are mostly within 15 miles, the CM 4221 has a much wider spread in azimuth. Checking Columbia, SC I see there is an ABC station at digital VHF 8 which is a drawback for selecting the CM 4221. But if it is under 20 miles and at a decent power level, I would expect the CM 4221 to pick it up.

OTOH, if your stations are only 10 to 15 miles, a Zenith/Philips Silver Sensor indoor antenna combined a rabbit ears may get them all. I suspect your problem is that the CM 3018 is the wrong antenna for your situation.

My zip code is 43230. The stations are in the general vicinity (southwest to downtown Columbus), but tweaking the antenna a few degrees brings in certain stations crystal clear, while others get "fuzzy."

I never thought a large rooftop antenna would be too much, or too directional being as close as I am. Rabbit ears were worthless for most stations. The digital stations would come in but freeze now and then. At least now ABC and Fox, the two stations I don't get on TMC in HD do come in clear. I was just hoping to pick up several PBS stations, as well as all national networks perfectly clear in HD.

There are some tall trees off in the distance in the path, but since it's fall, I can't imagine it's making that much of a difference.

Here's a few pics of the antenna:
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b152/tpc3416/11-6-06021.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b152/tpc3416/11-6-06018.jpg

Tower Guy

11-06-06, 05:48 PM

After mounting my CM3018 to my roof at the gable end - probably 26 feet in the air unobstructed from downtown Columbus, Ohio, I'm finding the reception to be horrific.

I'm at a point where I'm thinking the antenna I have isn't the right one for HD.

Thanks in advance. Confused in Columbus

I'd say that antenna should work fine. What else might be causing your problem? Are there any FM stations within one mile of you? If so, you need an FM trap. Are you using a preamp? If so, disconnect it. What does an analog station such as channel 28 look like? Is it clear, snowy, or ghosty?

Buckeyefan

11-06-06, 06:35 PM

I'd say that antenna should work fine. What else might be causing your problem? Are there any FM stations within one mile of you? If so, you need an FM trap. Are you using a preamp? If so, disconnect it. What does an analog station such as channel 28 look like? Is it clear, snowy, or ghosty?

There's no preamp, just RG6 straight to the tv. The RG6 is 100', and I need almost all of it. I'm wondering how much dB loss I'm experiencing. I don't think there are any FM stations nearby - definitely not within a mile. Channel 28 isn't perfect, but comes in decent. I'd rate it 75 out of 100 for analog.

afiggatt

11-06-06, 07:10 PM

My zip code is 43230. The stations are in the general vicinity (southwest to downtown Columbus), but tweaking the antenna a few degrees brings in certain stations crystal clear, while others get "fuzzy."

I never thought a large rooftop antenna would be too much, or too directional being as close as I am. Rabbit ears were worthless for most stations. The digital stations would come in but freeze now and then. At least now ABC and Fox, the two stations I don't get on TMC in HD do come in clear. I was just hoping to pick up several PBS stations, as well as all national networks perfectly clear in HD.
Are you looking at the analog stations or just the digital stations? You should not get "fuzzy" pictures with digital. Digital dropouts, yes, but not "fuzzy".

Plugging your zip i & 100 feet in height (to make up for variances in your zip) in the options set at antennaweb, I get:
* yellow - vhf WSYX-DT 6.1 ABC COLUMBUS OH 233° 10.4 13
* yellow - uhf WWHO-DT 53.1 CW CHILLICOTHE OH 208° 33.6 46
* yellow - uhf WTTE-DT 28.1 FOX COLUMBUS OH 233° 10.4 36
* yellow - uhf WCMH-DT 4.1 NBC COLUMBUS OH 245° 9.3 14
* yellow - uhf WBNS-DT 10.1 CBS COLUMBUS OH 245° 9.3 21
* yellow - uhf WOSU-DT 34.1 PBS COLUMBUS OH 350° 8.5 38

All of these qualify as yellow or for a small multi-directional. The CM 3018 is a large directional VHF/UHF antenna which falls into the "purple" category, although the Cm 3018 is not among the better of the large directionals. BTW, the last number in each row is the digital broadcast channel which states that you have 1 upper VHF 13 channel and the rest are UHF. No need for a big low VHF channels 2-6 antenna for your digital stations.

In the stations in the antennaweb list, you have a spread of 142 degrees in azimuth. Except for WWHO-DT in Chillicothe, the stations are close, so one would expect most of them to come in on even a very directional antenna as the UHF part of the CM 3018. But you need a medium range antenna with a wide pickup pattern with good response for VHF 13 and UHF, not a large directional VHF/UHF antenna. You may have a multi-path issue, but I would get a more appropriate antenna first before worrying about that. The CM 4221 4 Bay or the AntennasDirect DB-2 should work much better than the CM 3018 and be a lot easier to put up on the roof. Heck, an indoor antenna should get all your close stations. Get a more suitable antenna and then determine if you need a pre-amp for the 100' RG-6 cable run or to get the more distant stations.

Buckeyefan

11-06-06, 08:59 PM

Are you looking at the analog stations or just the digital stations? You should not get "fuzzy" pictures with digital. Digital dropouts, yes, but not "fuzzy".

Plugging your zip i & 100 feet in height (to make up for variances in your zip) in the options set at antennaweb, I get:
* yellow - vhf WSYX-DT 6.1 ABC COLUMBUS OH 233° 10.4 13
* yellow - uhf WWHO-DT 53.1 CW CHILLICOTHE OH 208° 33.6 46
* yellow - uhf WTTE-DT 28.1 FOX COLUMBUS OH 233° 10.4 36
* yellow - uhf WCMH-DT 4.1 NBC COLUMBUS OH 245° 9.3 14
* yellow - uhf WBNS-DT 10.1 CBS COLUMBUS OH 245° 9.3 21
* yellow - uhf WOSU-DT 34.1 PBS COLUMBUS OH 350° 8.5 38

All of these qualify as yellow or for a small multi-directional. The CM 3018 is a large directional VHF/UHF antenna which falls into the "purple" category, although the Cm 3018 is not among the better of the large directionals. BTW, the last number in each row is the digital broadcast channel which states that you have 1 upper VHF 13 channel and the rest are UHF. No need for a big low VHF channels 2-6 antenna for your digital stations.

In the stations in the antennaweb list, you have a spread of 142 degrees in azimuth. Except for WWHO-DT in Chillicothe, the stations are close, so one would expect most of them to come in on even a very directional antenna as the UHF part of the CM 3018. But you need a medium range antenna with a wide pickup pattern with good response for VHF 13 and UHF, not a large directional VHF/UHF antenna. You may have a multi-path issue, but I would get a more appropriate antenna first before worrying about that. The CM 4221 4 Bay or the AntennasDirect DB-2 should work much better than the CM 3018 and be a lot easier to put up on the roof. Heck, an indoor antenna should get all your close stations. Get a more suitable antenna and then determine if you need a pre-amp for the 100' RG-6 cable run or to get the more distant stations.

The digital stations are coming in nicely this evening. I'm assuming the signal is stronger during the evening, on a clear night. They are the 6 you listed. All look outstanding right now.

The others that I'm surprised aren't coming in as clear (analog), say, as SD cable, are as follows:
Ok picture (approaching SD cable):
4
4.2
6.2
10
28
28.2
34.2
34.3

The following are coming in lousy (fuzzy):
6
8
10.2
17
19
23
48
51
53

Are my expectations too high? I probably would have simply installed a basic UHF antenna had I known the VHF analog stations would have been so tempermental to exact direction. Is this typical of VHF?

afiggatt

11-06-06, 09:35 PM

The digital stations are coming in nicely this evening. I'm assuming the signal is stronger during the evening, on a clear night. They are the 6 you listed. All look outstanding right now.

The others that I'm surprised aren't coming in as clear (analog), say, as SD cable, are as follows:
Ok picture (approaching SD cable):
4
4.2
6.2
10
28
28.2
34.2
34.3

The following are coming in lousy (fuzzy):
...
10.2

The x.2 and x.3 are the digital sub-channels. If they are "fuzzy", then these presumably highly compressed SD sub-channels. They will not look like HD, but should be 4:3 pillarboxed. Are these weather or news sub-channels? Is one of them The Tube music video SD sub-channel which is carried in a number of markets?

As for the analog channels, you have a very directional antenna which has poor gain for the stations which are off-axis.

Buckeyefan

11-06-06, 10:02 PM

The x.2 and x.3 are the digital sub-channels. If they are "fuzzy", then these presumably highly compressed SD sub-channels. They will not look like HD, but should be 4:3 pillarboxed. Are these weather or news sub-channels? Is one of them The Tube music video SD sub-channel which is carried in a number of markets?

As for the analog channels, you have a very directional antenna which has poor gain for the stations which are off-axis.

They are wide screen, one is a weather channel and one is The Tube. It plays old school music from the 70' and 80's.

I guess I need a rotor for the other VHF channels.

FreeBaGeL

11-07-06, 03:36 PM

So where is the best place to purchase a channel master 4228 antenna?

afiggatt

11-07-06, 03:53 PM

They are wide screen, one is a weather channel and one is The Tube. It plays old school music from the 70' and 80's.

I guess I need a rotor for the other VHF channels.
The Tube is not wide screen, but is a 4:3 SD program on the two OTA stations that I get it from. I don't know of any stations that are sending out widescreen SD on their additional SD sub-channels. Check the zoom settings for the OTA SD channels on your TV and/or STB if you have an external ATSC receiver box. Chances are that you are stretching or zooming in for the SD channels. Cycle it back to normal or whatever your particular TV/STB calls it. A zoom for window-boxed 16:9 SD material will make the channels look more "fuzzy".

tyromark

11-07-06, 04:10 PM

FreeBaGel - You can get one incl. S&H for $63 from warrenelectronics.com
That's about as cheap as it can be found anywhere, and I've gotten very good mail-order service from them (incl. a return) in the past.

Buckeyefan

11-07-06, 06:44 PM

The Tube is not wide screen, but is a 4:3 SD program on the two OTA stations that I get it from. I don't know of any stations that are sending out widescreen SD on their additional SD sub-channels. Check the zoom settings for the OTA SD channels on your TV and/or STB if you have an external ATSC receiver box. Chances are that you are stretching or zooming in for the SD channels. Cycle it back to normal or whatever your particular TV/STB calls it. A zoom for window-boxed 16:9 SD material will make the channels look more "fuzzy".

You were right, it was on "full screen."

So is there anything I can do to pick up the VHF/SD stations better without hooking up a rotor? I do enjoy the free SD stations that I assume I might not get with the 4228.

hdtv00

11-09-06, 01:04 PM

Can you use an outdoor one indoors. I dont care how big it is or stupid it looks.

TotallyPreWired

11-09-06, 01:18 PM

Can you use an outdoor one indoors. I dont care how big it is or stupid it looks.
Sure! I used to do it all the time when, uh, decor was not a big deal! :p
....jc

bourmb

11-09-06, 02:36 PM

Can you use an outdoor one indoors. I dont care how big it is or stupid it looks.

I would recommend mounting a CM 4228 on the wall.

KeithAR2002

11-09-06, 02:39 PM

I would recommend mounting a CM 4228 on the wall.

That's exactly what Im planning on doing...well I'm just going to have it on a tripod, but I don't think it'll look bad :)

TotallyPreWired

11-09-06, 02:52 PM

I would recommend mounting a CM 4228 on the wall.
Yea, I used to hang a yagi from the ceiling with fishing line. :p I had another line from the one end to a wall so I could swing it. Pretty racy. Well... :confused: back then...
....jc

bourmb

11-10-06, 09:07 AM

That's exactly what Im planning on doing...well I'm just going to have it on a tripod, but I don't think it'll look bad :)

You could always pass it off as a form of an art sculpture. :) You have given me some ideas, now. I think I am going to go home tonight and order a 108" fringe antenna for my dining room...

rsv1000

11-13-06, 01:11 PM

Well I received the CM4228 Friday and got it set-up in the attic. I just aimed where antennaweb said and hooked it up and there it was. Ch 19 coming in clear.
Thanks for the advice. The only other thing that I was wondering is, what could I try to pick up a stronger signal? It is 65-75% now, is it worth trying to improve or is this strong enough? I am about 60 miles away and my antenna is in the attic.
What do you think?

jeffloby

11-13-06, 05:03 PM

That is a great signal for being in the attic at that distance.

FreeBaGeL

11-13-06, 05:49 PM

Tower Guy

11-13-06, 11:40 PM

KeithAR2002

11-14-06, 02:16 AM

So what do all of you think about hanging a 4228 on the wall? Im in the process of moving to Jackson, MS, and tonight I was experimenting with the 4228 being against the wall... unfortunately my wall faces opposite of the transmitters, but what would happen if I had the front of the antenna towards the transmitters, but right against the wall? In my opinion, the 4228 really isn't a bad looking antenna. It could easily pass as a work of art :) Would I do better just having it on a tripod, as I was discussing earlier? A user posted a photo of his 4228 on a tripod next to his television... it was back in July and I can't find the post now... but what are some of your suggestions? I personally think it would look better on the wall... but the tripod idea wouldn't look too bad, either. Could I have some feedback?

Tower Guy

11-14-06, 07:53 AM

afiggatt

11-14-06, 10:24 AM

Anyone know anything about the Channel Master 3020? I'm in Gainesville, FL (zip 32607) and was going to pick up the CM4228 which does 60 miles UHF for locals, but we don't have NBC HD OTA here and I noticed that Jax's NBC station is VHF (3020 says it will do 100 miles for VHF). Would the 3020 be a better choice? Jax's NBC doesn't even show up on antennaweb but it is within 100 miles. Lots of trees around though.
From the center of your zip code, the stations in Jacksonville are 67 miles away. (I plugged in a height of 1000 feet in the antennaweb options to get the Jacksonville stations to show up). To have a chance of getting the Jacksonville stations, you need a top performing antenna and the CM 3020 is not regarded as such. The NBC station in Jackonville,WTLV-DT, is digitally broadcasting on VHF 13. The Cm 4228 might get it, but you should look into the dedicated long range VHF antennas.

I agree with Towerguy's recommendations. One antenna for the Jacksonville stations - though I would suggest you might as well try to get all of the major stations which means upper VHF and UHF if you are going to the trouble of getting WTLV-DT - and the CM 4221 for the local stations. You could put in a A/B switch or add in a 2nd ATSC tuner if you are up to running 2 RG-6 cables into the house. A number of choices here, but skip the CM3020.

slksc

11-15-06, 07:14 AM

I need an antenna to receive only one channel (my local ABC station) that won't license its HD signal for TimeWarner cable. It's 15 miles away, at 358°. I was thinking of using an external antenna mounted about 12 feet high on the side of my deck that faces due north. Any suggestions?

Another question: on my Panasonic 58PX600U, I use a Cablecard for cable channels. What would be the best way to switch between the cable feed and the external antenna?

Many thanks.

afiggatt

11-15-06, 08:22 AM

I need an antenna to receive only one channel (my local ABC station) that won't license its HD signal for TimeWarner cable. It's 15 miles away, at 358°. I was thinking of using an external antenna mounted about 12 feet high on the side of my deck that faces due north. Any suggestions?
Is the ABC station broadcasting digitally on UHF or VHF? Will the station switch back to upper VHF in February, 2009? (of course by then, TW will likely be carrying the station). If you provide your zip code, we can provide more accurate recommendations. If the station is on UHF, an AntennasDirect DB-2 is compact and can be mounted on the side of a deck.

slksc

11-15-06, 08:50 AM

The station is UHF; I have no idea what they'll be doing after 2009. The station is owned by Sinclair Broadcasting, which I think is notorious for not negotiating with cable companies in a number of local markets.

My zip code is 27106. When I just went back to antennaweb.com, I see I made a mistake. WXLV-45 analog is 15 miles away at 358°, but the digital broadcast is 34 miles away at 132°. Here are the coordinates from my house:

WXLV-DT 45.1 ABC WINSTON-SALEM NC 132° 34.2 29

That means I can't mount it on the deck as I had planned, but I might be able to mount it on the southeast corner of the house if I can use a mount that works on brick.

afiggatt

11-15-06, 04:08 PM

My zip code is 27106. When I just went back to antennaweb.com, I see I made a mistake. WXLV-45 analog is 15 miles away at 358°, but the digital broadcast is 34 miles away at 132°. Here are the coordinates from my house:

WXLV-DT 45.1 ABC WINSTON-SALEM NC 132° 34.2 29

That means I can't mount it on the deck as I had planned, but I might be able to mount it on the southeast corner of the house if I can use a mount that works on brick.
Looking up your zip code, all of your local stations are broadcasting on UHF with two groupings spread around 140 degrees in azimuth. Tricky situation if you wanted to get all the stations, but you have only 1 critical station. I recommend you get the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay Bowtie. It should have little problem getting WXLV and may well get all of your locals if you can set it up with a reasonably clear view to the north. As for how to mount it, check out the different mount options at the on-line dealers such as solidsignal.com.

However, connecting the antenna to the Panasonic TH-58PX600 when you are using cable cards for QAM cable is a problem. The Panasonic manual shows only 1 RF input which means the TV is intended to be used for cable or with an OTA antenna, not both. You could put in an A/B switch, but you will likely have to change the input configuration and re-scan every time you want to switch from cable to OTA. Simply just not a viable approach. Either get a cable box (HD-DVR) and use the TV for the tuner or get an external ATSC tuner so you only have to switch input selections to go from cable to OTA. Most TVs do not come with 2 RF inputs and two separate ATSC & QAM tuners. They are intended to be used for 1 or the other digital source as far as the built-in tuners are concerned.

slksc

11-16-06, 06:39 AM

Many thanks. That's exactly what I needed.

bschmidt25

11-17-06, 12:19 AM

Need some input... I'm having serious reception issues. It's all over the place. Some days I get almost everything, most days I get very little with constant drop outs. I am very close to the towers - here is my antennaweb data:

* yellow - uhf WISN-DT 12.1 ABC MILWAUKEE WI 169° 2.6 34
* yellow - uhf WDJT-DT 58.1 CBS MILWAUKEE WI 171° 2.6 46
* yellow - uhf WITI-DT 6.1 FOX MILWAUKEE WI 335° 2.5 33
* yellow - uhf WTMJ-DT 4.1 NBC MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.4 28
* yellow - vhf WMVS-DT 10.1 PBS MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 8
* yellow - uhf WMVT-DT 36.1 PBS MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 35
* yellow - uhf WPXE-DT 55.1 i KENOSHA WI 156° 4.1 40
* green - uhf WJJA-DT 48 IND RACINE WI TBD 157° 4.7 48
* red - uhf WCGV-DT 24.1 MNT MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 25
* red - uhf WVCY-DT 30.1 REL MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 22
* red - uhf WVTV-DT 18.1 CW MILWAUKEE WI 156° 4.1 61

Problem is... I live on the second floor of a 3 story condo, facing the complete opposite direction of where the towers are. Each floor of the condo is seperated by a concrete and metal floor (which extends out to the patio where I have the antenna located). There are many trees (though not very dense), and a pond in front of the antenna. There are other buildings to the sides. There aren't any tall buildings between me and the towers - just alot of trees and 2-3 story buildings. I'm currently using a DB2 and the integrated tuner on my Sony KD34XBR960. The antenna is pointed pretty much directly opposite of where the towers are, which seems to work best. I know I'm dealing with multipath here and I'm trying to find the best antenna for this situation - being that I'm only about 4 miles from the towers. I have the most problems with 12-1 and 6-1 and the least (relatively) with 4-1 and 58-1 which are both very high power stations. (On a side note, it says 6-1 is at 335 degrees, but I believe they have recently relocated to where the other transmitters are). I was thinking the SS-1000 or 2000 would be a good choice, but admittedly I'm just going by what I have been reading in the forums. Any other suggestions are appreciated!

Thanks!
Bryan

holl_ands

11-17-06, 02:26 AM

First of all, you should try an Variable RF Attenuator (R-S 15-678) on the input to reduce the signal overload problem.....
This may allow you to point the DB-2 towards the towers to see if you can pick up the direct path that is probably passing THROUGH your building.

============================================
To reduce multipath, you need an antenna with a NARROWER beamwidth.
The SS-1000/2000 is a very wide beamwidth antenna....also large, heavy and overpriced...
PS: To avoid signal overload, you should NOT be using a Preamp or amplified antenna, like the SS-2000.

If the RF Attenuator doesn't do the job, you might want to try either a 4-Bay or an 8-Bay antenna.

lovebohn

11-17-06, 09:15 AM

Or see if you can get the antenna on the roof top.

bschmidt25

11-17-06, 02:04 PM

Or see if you can get the antenna on the roof top.

I'm also trying that route, but have been unsuccessful so far with my association. I would gladly pay for the antenna and share it with the building if I could. They gave me a hard time about having the antenna on my patio until I printed out the FCC rules. They don't want to allow antennas or satellite dishes on the common areas at all - probably because someone sued them (unsuccessfully) to allow them to put a dish up on the roof so they could receive foreign programming. They probably don't want to set any sort of precedent on that. There is an antenna on the roof already and each unit is wired to it, but my guess is that it is a VHF only antenna as I can get no UHF stations - analog (poor reception) or digital. Funny thing is I can receive analog cable channels 2-13 using the antenna, and I do not have cable service. This leads me to believe that it has a pretty power amplifier attached to it somewhere and it's picking up someone's bleeding signal.

FROTH

11-18-06, 08:31 PM

I am experiencing HD dropouts that I have not been able to resolve. Analog reception very good except for channel 3 (understandable because low freq VHF on a UHF antenna)
. Location - Crestwood KY 40014 . SR15 Antenna - 10 ft above roof line at 280 degrees
. SAMSUNG T351 Box . Towers 20 -22 miles at 276/280 degrees
. 75 ft RG6 Coax . No Amp
. HD Freq 8, 17,26, 38, 47, 49, 51, 55 . Analog Freq 3, 11, 15, 21,32, 41, 58, 68
. Low hill about 300 yds away . Tree about 50 ft away.

Summer is usually poor on all HD freq, winter I have been able to get a day or two with great HD reception on all channels but then it will start dropping out & pixelating on all freq. Seems to be weather related.
Neighbor 200 ft away gets OTA HD w/o dropout using double bow tie about same height.
(He does have different HD tuner.) Tried 43XG as recommended by Solid Signal - no improvement in dropouts or signal strength compared to SR15. Tried various heights up to 15 ft above roof. (Note SR15 is well made -The 43XG was flimsy in comparison.)

I have read the first 66 forum pages and have not yet found salvation. Is there any hope?

MAX HD

11-18-06, 09:01 PM

afiggatt

11-18-06, 11:37 PM

beanpod

11-19-06, 01:37 AM

Currently using a CM Stealth with amplifier card mounted outside about 25 feet high pointed toward the 312 degree antenna farm...no rotary. At 312 deg I get WRAL and WNCN are fairly consistant. My local Greenville stations and even the New Bern station are solid. Omnidirection reception is a strength of the Stealth.

I want to tap solidly into all stations at the 312 deg antenna farm without a rotary and without losing my local stations. I am considering a CM 4221 plus amplifier because it might pick up New Bern on the back side and also CBS out of Greenville is VHF. Second consideration is 4228, but I understand it to be more directional. If I must, I'll install a rotary, but I wanted to toss this out for suggestion before making a decision.

Any options/combinations/suggestions, etc welcome. Thanks in advance.

Below are my AntennaWeb results. And BTW, my local FOX hasn't even begun digital broadcast and is a primary reason for interest in the Raleigh antenna farm.

* yellow - uhf WEPX-DT 38 MNT GREENVILLE NC TBD 29° 18.3 38
* yellow - vhf WNCT-DT 9.1 CBS GREENVILLE NC 38° 17.0 10
* yellow - uhf WITN-DT 7.1 NBC WASHINGTON NC 38° 17.0 32
* yellow - uhf WCTI-DT 12.1 ABC NEW BERN NC 114° 11.9 48
* yellow - uhf WUNM-DT 19.1 PBS JACKSONVILLE NC 114° 11.9 18
* green - uhf WYDO-DT 21 FOX GREENVILLE NC TBD 34° 22.6 21
* green - uhf WUNK-DT 25.1 PBS GREENVILLE NC 2° 28.0 23
* blue - uhf WNCN-DT 17.1 NBC GOLDSBORO NC 312° 66.4 55
* blue - uhf WRAL-DT 5.1 CBS RALEIGH NC 312° 66.4 53
* blue - uhf WRAZ-DT 50.1 FOX RALEIGH NC 312° 66.4 49
* violet - uhf WTVD-DT 11.1 ABC DURHAM NC 312° 66.4 52
* violet - uhf WPXU-DT 35.1 MNT JACKSONVILLE NC 182° 43.9 34

FROTH

11-19-06, 01:50 AM

If all the analog UHF channels are good with no ghosting,then it must be the STB.Try a different box,or a TV with a built-in tuner.If that doesn't solve the problem,try an XG91 or CM4228 8-bay with no preamp.

The only other thing that could cause this would be a faulty appliance or electrical wiring problem,but that should show up on the analogs as well.

Thanks - I am considering a different box or 4 bay bow tie antenna. I think what I am really searching for is understanding why I can sometimes get good reception for a whole day or two and then it starts to dropout again. This in my small mind means the antenna & box can work together. I need to understand why changing the STB or using a 4/8 bay bow tie antenna can make it work all the time? So I beg your indulgence with some more info and questions.

There is some minor ghosting on a couple of channels but others are clear to me. How bad does analog ghosting have to be before it equates to HD dropout due to multipath? Or is everything depend on the HT Tuner? Does the Samsung T351 have a bad history of being unable to "lock on" unless conditions are perfect? Is there some spec on tuners that equates to signal lock ability? What I am afraid of is that I am in a location that somehow prevents good solid HD signal unless I get a "magic" day that bends/reflects the signal to the antenna and no STB or antenna would work. Has this happened to anyone?

What what conditions would a bow tie antenna be better than a directional yagi when all the stations are in the same direction?

I always get from 5 to 9 bars (of a max 10). This signal strength is consistant whether or not I have good reception or dropouts & pixelation. When I have dropout, the signal strength on the STB reading drops to "0" then back up again.

Tower Guy

11-19-06, 07:09 AM

I want to tap solidly into all stations at the 312 deg antenna farm without a rotary and without losing my local stations. I am considering a CM 4221 plus amplifier because it might pick up New Bern on the back side and also CBS out of Greenville is VHF. Second consideration is 4228, but I understand it to be more directional. If I must, I'll install a rotary, but I wanted to toss this out for suggestion before making a decision.

There's no off-the-shelf answer to your situation. Two antennas, one UHF only such as the 4228 aimed at 312 and an all channel antenna aimed at about 33 will receive most signals. There's no good way to add them together. You could try just adding them using a splitter backwards as a combiner and hope that the multipath and loss won't matter.

beanpod

11-19-06, 11:49 AM

Thanks TowerGuy. That is an option I considered, but then I have additional masting issues. I talked with a tech rep at CM and he suggested removing the amp from the Stealth if I tried a combo approach.

Anyone else have suggestions???

texasbrit

11-19-06, 01:00 PM

All of your local stations are around 21 miles and all are at UHF with the exception of WBNA-DT 21 Pax/i station on VHF 8. Since both of the antennas you tried are UHF only, I would assume this station is not important (well it is Pax, now i, the informercal network). Both of them are yagi style which can be touchy for the right aim. I think you would get better results with a CM 4221 4 Bay bowtie. Should provide more gain on average across all the UHF channels. The CM 4221 is a widely recommended antenna here for a reason.

Just FYI, in 2009 when analog goes away WHAS is going back to channel 11 so there will be another VHF-hi station. At 21 miles the CM4221 may be OK for this VHF station but if you are still in the same house after 2009 you may suddenly start to have problems.

MAX HD

11-19-06, 04:42 PM

beanpod

11-20-06, 01:48 AM

There's no off-the-shelf answer to your situation. Two antennas, one UHF only such as the 4228 aimed at 312 and an all channel antenna aimed at about 33 will receive most signals. There's no good way to add them together. You could try just adding them using a splitter backwards as a combiner and hope that the multipath and loss won't matter.

If I tried a 4228 at 312 plus Stealth (curently amplified) at about 33 and combined coax post amplified (just before connecting to TV), does that cause multipath issues or is multipath a product of relative positioning of the 2 antennas to each other?? Coax runs will be about 50 ft each.

If I went with the 4228 and rotary combo...would you suggest an amplifier. Would amplification be too much for the 12-22 mile stations??

I have a combiner that may work for this.It breaks at Ch37 and can be configured to amplify upper,lower,or both.

Triax....TMC 3739 STP
Insertion loss...<1db
Band rejection.....>20db
Thru-power...switchable

I'm not sure how this fits into my situation. Thanks for the input though.

bschmidt25

11-20-06, 12:28 PM

MAX HD

11-20-06, 06:31 PM

If I tried a 4228 at 312 plus Stealth (curently amplified) at about 33 and combined coax post amplified (just before connecting to TV), does that cause multipath issues or is multipath a product of relative positioning of the 2 antennas to each other?? Coax runs will be about 50 ft each.

If I went with the 4228 and rotary combo...would you suggest an amplifier. Would amplification be too much for the 12-22 mile stations??

I'm not sure how this fits into my situation. Thanks for the input though.

The combiner can be configured to use the 4228 pointed towards the 312 deg stations using a preamp on the high side,then use the other antenna for your locals(unamped).The low-side of the combiner will pass everything from Ch2 up to 38 or so.Would be a good solution,at least for a couple years,or so.

Greg B

Tower Guy

11-20-06, 07:22 PM

I have a combiner that may work for this.It breaks at Ch37 and can be configured to amplify upper,lower,or both.

Triax....TMC 3739 STP
Insertion loss...<1db
Band rejection.....>20db
Thru-power...switchable

Greg B

I didn't know about those filters. Thanks for the tip.

beanpod

11-20-06, 08:58 PM

The combiner can be configured to use the 4228 pointed towards the 312 deg stations using a preamp on the high side,then use the other antenna for your locals(unamped).The low-side of the combiner will pass everything from Ch2 up to 38 or so.Would be a good solution,at least for a couple years,or so.

Greg B

Not trying to be difficult, but I was thinking in reverse. Considering my current antenna (CM Stealth) already has an amplifier card and pointed at 312 and I can get 2 sataions fairly consistant, I was told by a local installer I was in a "sweet spot" because the Stealth was not suppose to have that capability. Therefore, I'm thinking about the 4228 unamped at 312 plus the Stealth (amped) at 33 for locals. Local ABC transmits at 48 Hz, but rest of locals are below 39 and I believe I'd need the Stealth amped for local ABC since it is the odd direction.

Speaking of the local installer, he's mostly a sat guy and I could tell in conversation he wasn't the strongest knowledge base for OTA antenna. He suggested a Winegard HD995 (another installer had mentioned it to him as a popular UHF antenna), but it looks like a yagi and I'm trying to avoid a rotator (at present). Any thoughts on the HD995???

How would this factor into the combiner use?? I'm still unclear about the point of multipath interference. Is it only an interaction of 2 antennas or does the signal get jumbled upon combining???

I appreciate the input so far.

MAX HD

11-20-06, 10:04 PM

Not trying to be difficult, but I was thinking in reverse. Considering my current antenna (CM Stealth) already has an amplifier card and pointed at 312 and I can get 2 sataions fairly consistant, I was told by a local installer I was in a "sweet spot" because the Stealth was not suppose to have that capability. Therefore, I'm thinking about the 4228 unamped at 312 plus the Stealth (amped) at 33 for locals. Local ABC transmits at 48 Hz, but rest of locals are below 39 and I believe I'd need the Stealth amped for local ABC since it is the odd direction.

Speaking of the local installer, he's mostly a sat guy and I could tell in conversation he wasn't the strongest knowledge base for OTA antenna. He suggested a Winegard HD995 (another installer had mentioned it to him as a popular UHF antenna), but it looks like a yagi and I'm trying to avoid a rotator (at present). Any thoughts on the HD995???

How would this factor into the combiner use?? I'm still unclear about the point of multipath interference. Is it only an interaction of 2 antennas or does the signal get jumbled upon combining???

I appreciate the input so far.

You stated in a previous post the Stealth picks up all your locals,including Ch10 solid.Good.Now you're trying to add some upper UHF from Raleigh.Right? Ok,at 66mi you need an antenna that performs well in that frequency range.I would suggest either a 91XG(best) or a 4221 4-bay(it's as good,or better than a 4228 at the higher frequencies),and use a 7775 or 7777 preamp.Then,combine both systems after amplification into the combiner.The combiner output would then go to the Tv,tuner,ect.

The only channel in question would be WCTI on 48,but it's only 12 miles away,so whatever antenna you use for the Raleigh stations should pick them up off the back no problem.

On second thought,in your situation with close locals I'd use an additional combiner(high side)between the Raleigh antenna and preamp input to knock down the local stuff by 20db before amplification.I have two.

Greg B

texasbrit

11-21-06, 12:28 AM

The 4228 has better performance than the 4221 on all UHF channels up to the low 60s. And when analog goes away in 2009 there will be no UHF channels above 52 anyway. The only real advantage of using the 4221 is that it has a much wider beamwidth than the 4228, so can sometimes be used in situations where you would otherwise need a rotor. And it's smaller and lighter.

The 91XG also shows better performance than the 4228 at high UHF, probably anything above channel 53 or so. But again this isn't important if you are planning for 2009 when those channels currently above 52 will be moving down.

And all these performance numbers are pretty theoretical. The 4228 and 91 XG are both excellent UHF antennas, which one is best for you will often depend on your particular situation and you can only know for sure by trying them both.

hdtv00

11-21-06, 01:57 AM

So now Im trying to help my dad get his reception going. He's got a nice tower 25ft up or so with an unknown to me but I believe one of the common fringe antennas not sure if its 30 mile version or the 60mile UHF version. Anyway he gets a few channels but all dont come in. He also makes it worse by splitting it in the house into at least a 3 way, if not 4 way splitter, then theres the in the end about a 70 ft run of cable to get to the final hdtv.

Try what first, line straight to tv,amp the line, better antenna or all of the above. Also seen brand I cant remember at local farm and fleet deep fringe antenna said it has 80mile UHF range 51 element. Anyone know if this is better than a channel master 60mile range antenna.

Also since stations have a semi wide angle can you rig two antennas pointing at each spot and combine them then run into same hdtv. I pretty much know a few answers like I mentioned just wanted to see what you pros had to add.

It says hes 25.6 from the main antenna farm and 14 from the other but its well off angle to the others.

NightHawk

11-21-06, 08:23 AM

nyprimus4

11-25-06, 01:07 AM

I'm new to antenna HD programming.

According to antennaweb.org I can get CBS, NBC, FOX, and ABC in the yellow which are the only channels I care about. I would have liked ESPN the most but the cable with everything is $15 a month.

I live in a 2 story house with no large buildings around.

I just recently purchased the Samsung Slimfit 30" HDTV (TXS3082WHX) which has a built in HD tuner. I would only need an HD antenna now, correct?

Would the Terk Indoor Amplified HDTV Antenna from Bestbuy for $69.99 give me an awesome looking 1080i, reliable image?
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=7322587&st=hd+antenna&type=product&id=1118844608800

I'm on the top floor of the house in the corner in a mid-sized room, if the Terk antenna I mentioned is good enough can I just mount the antenna on the ceiling closest to my window?

crhinehart

11-25-06, 12:05 PM

Here are my Antennaweb results (for desired stations):

yellow - uhf WXTX 54 FOX COLUMBUS GA 173° 8.5 54
* yellow - uhf WXTX-DT 54.1 FOX COLUMBUS GA 173° 8.5 49
yellow - uhf WLTZ 38 NBC COLUMBUS GA 176° 8.6 38
* yellow - uhf WLTZ-DT 38.1 NBC COLUMBUS GA 176° 8.6 35
* green - uhf WJSP-DT 23 PBS COLUMBUS GA 07-08 35° 22.1 23
red - vhf WTVM 9 ABC COLUMBUS GA 161° 19.2 9
* red - uhf WTVM-DT 9.1 ABC COLUMBUS GA 161° 19.2 47
red - vhf WRBL 3 CBS COLUMBUS GA 161° 19.2 3
* red - uhf WRBL-DT 3.1 CBS COLUMBUS GA 161° 19.2 15
* blue - vhf WACS-DT 8 PBS DAWSON GA 07-08 158° 48.9 8

I am really only interested in the DT stations for OTA, as I have cable for SD reception. I have a projector and I am ready to get OTA HDTV. I have ample attic space and need help with antenna selection. I have been reviewing info online for three days now and realize there is no one answer. That said, I have a couple of questions:

1. (Ignoring for the moment the PBS stations) since the VHF channels 3 and 9 are broadcasting DT on UHF channels, can I get away with a UHF-only antenna? I think the answer is 'yes' but can someone please confirm?

2. Depending on the answer to #1, can you provide recommendations for an antenna for my attic? I don't know line of sight info, but in general it's pretty darn flat here in South GA. There are trees between me and the antennas (which are mostly at CSG airport, I think). CM-4221, CM-4228 (overkill?)? some of the smaller set-top antenna units (from Zenith, Radio Shack, Jensen, Terk, etc)? Winegard Square Shooter? SharpShooter? other Winegard? AntennasDirect DB2 or DB4? Help? I'm in "Antenna Overload!!"

I have a coax cable run from my attic down to my basement theater with Optoma projector and 7 foot (horizontal) screen. I'm so excited about getting HD. I don't have a tuner yet but have my eye on the new Samsung.

Thanks for your input!

afiggatt

11-25-06, 12:45 PM

According to antennaweb.org I can get CBS, NBC, FOX, and ABC in the yellow which are the only channels I care about. I would have liked ESPN the most but the cable with everything is $15 a month.

I live in a 2 story house with no large buildings around.

I just recently purchased the Samsung Slimfit 30" HDTV (TXS3082WHX) which has a built in HD tuner. I would only need an HD antenna now, correct?

Would the Terk Indoor Amplified HDTV Antenna from Bestbuy for $69.99 give me an awesome looking 1080i, reliable image?...
I'm on the top floor of the house in the corner in a mid-sized room, if the Terk antenna I mentioned is good enough can I just mount the antenna on the ceiling closest to my window?
A yellow color code on antennaweb is not much of a guide. How far are you from the local broadcast towers? 10 miles? 30 miles? 50 miles? Are all the stations currently digitally broadcasting on UHF or are some on VHF? Are they all in the same direction? These questions should be answered before you select an antenna and setup. If you provide your zip code, we can look up the antennaweb entry and other sources to provide valid recommendations for your situation. The Terk you listed is ok for a Terk but is UHF only and for closer range situations, typically inside of 20 miles.

afiggatt

11-25-06, 12:57 PM

Antenna for Midland / Columbus, GA - attic
* yellow - uhf WXTX-DT 54.1 FOX COLUMBUS GA 173° 8.5 49
* yellow - uhf WLTZ-DT 38.1 NBC COLUMBUS GA 176° 8.6 35
* green - uhf WJSP-DT 23 PBS COLUMBUS GA 07-08 35° 22.1 23
* red - uhf WTVM-DT 9.1 ABC COLUMBUS GA 161° 19.2 47
* red - uhf WRBL-DT 3.1 CBS COLUMBUS GA 161° 19.2 15
* blue - vhf WACS-DT 8 PBS DAWSON GA 07-08 158° 48.9 8

2. Depending on the answer to #1, can you provide recommendations for an antenna for my attic? I don't know line of sight info, but in general it's pretty darn flat here in South GA. There are trees between me and the antennas (which are mostly at CSG airport, I think). CM-4221, CM-4228 (overkill?)? some of the smaller set-top antenna units (from Zenith, Radio Shack, Jensen, Terk, etc)? Winegard Square Shooter? SharpShooter? other Winegard? AntennasDirect DB2 or DB4? Help? I'm in "Antenna Overload!!"
Ignoring the WACS PBS station broadcasting on VHF 8, all your digital stations are currently on UHF. The four major network stations are all in the same direction. If you are going with an attic mount, the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay is a good choice. The DB-2 will likely do the job as well, but the CM 4221 offers a good combination of range and wide pickup in azimuth & may pick the closer of the PBS stations. You don't need to get into the large long range & directional antennas if your goal is to the key stations on the list above.

hdtv00

11-25-06, 02:17 PM

crhinehart

11-25-06, 02:30 PM

crhinehart

I have that exact same antenna basically came with tv wonder and I live 12.5 miles from towers and it cuts in and out. I wouldn't say get one unless you want drop outs. Especially for that insane price. If you want no drop outs buy one of the flat panel like ones and hang it on a wall or something. Heck you have a house have at it with a real setup. Just be glad you dont live in an apt.

HDTV00, thanks for the reply. For clarification, please tell me which antenna you are referring to. The one I am leaning toward at this point is the ChannelMaster 4221A (same as ChannelMaster 3021, as I understand). These are large, outdoor mount antennas. Are you saying that one of these came with your TV? They only cost $25 plus shipping, with a total of about $36 from Warren Electronics.

Please clarify your comment, if you don't mind. Thanks.

wtxlonghorn

11-26-06, 11:43 PM

Ok I will preface this by stating the obvious, I am a newbie. I am trying to pickup my "locals" OTA and have several questions. My first question involves the CES Pie chart. What determines green, red, violet??? Is it signal strength? distance, a combo of them both? Second I live in a part of our grand nation where the local affilate for ABC has choose not to broadcast in HD, so while this may seem like a stupid question I will ask it anyway. Just because I am using a HDTV antenna does not mean I cannot recieve the standard analog channels on the same antenna, correct? I am currently using a HDTV antenna I bought from Radio Shack and I am not sure of the model, but it is suppose to be good for 70 miles. I have gathered from all the forums that I would do better with a Winegard or Channel Master, but has anyone ever used the AntennaCraft antennas? if so, How do they perform? I am only getting one OTA channel right now and it is in the "RED" slice of pie and I am getting between 85 and 90% Signal. I do have plans to make the investment and improve things, I will probablly be able to go up to about 25ft, and plan on installing a pre-amp and rotor, but my main question is; I am approx. 400ft below the terrain where the broadcast are transmitted and wonder what effect if any this will present? I would also be intrested in knowing how long my drop can be before suffering significant signal loss. Thanks in advance for any and all who reply. I am sure I will have more questions in the future.

goldrich

11-27-06, 08:48 AM

HDTV00, thanks for the reply. For clarification, please tell me which antenna you are referring to. The one I am leaning toward at this point is the ChannelMaster 4221A (same as ChannelMaster 3021, as I understand). These are large, outdoor mount antennas. Are you saying that one of these came with your TV? They only cost $25 plus shipping, with a total of about $36 from Warren Electronics.

Please clarify your comment, if you don't mind. Thanks.

As long as you don't have any multipath issues at your location, the CM 4221 should be a good antenna for your local stations. Five years ago when I bought my first STB, I also bought the 4221 but found that a couple of my locals had lots of dropouts. One station, just 5.5 miles away, sometimes wouldn't even decode. The problem turned out to be multipath...... http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryG.html#multipath

I then purchased the CM 4228 and my particular multipath issues were resolved. I later read this information, which mentions the multipath issue relating to the 4221.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryR.html#n4bay
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryR.html#n8bay

If you see a lot of ghosting with your local analog stations, then you may experience some multipath issues with DTV.

Steve

texasbrit

11-27-06, 09:21 AM

Ok I will preface this by stating the obvious, I am a newbie. I am trying to pickup my "locals" OTA and have several questions. My first question involves the CES Pie chart. What determines green, red, violet??? Is it signal strength? distance, a combo of them both? .

OK, for us to help you we need to know a bit more about your situation. First, go back to antennaweb, put in your exact address (not just your zip code) and then copy/paste the complete results into your reply to this post.
Second, are you looking just for digital stations or do you really need analog as well? This will probably have a big input on any antenna recommendation, beacause most (not all) digitals are on UHF, and many analog stations are on VHF. In particular many of the network affiliates use VHF-lo (channels 2-7) for their analog station, and VHF-lo requires much larger antennas (it's just physics).

The color code on the antenna selection chart is based on how much antenna gain you need to get stable reception, so it is the signal strength at your location that determines the color code for a particular station, This is a function of the transmitter power, distance and the terrain at your particular location.

You can forget anything on the antenna box that says "70 miles", it's completely unscientific. Even the color coding is only an approximation. If you post your antennaweb results we can give you some comments on your current antenna (if you can find out which model it is), and some recommendations based around how antennas actually perform in real-world situations.

hdtv00

11-27-06, 01:11 PM

Sorry crhinehart I meant the post above yours where he was talking about that little terk antenna. I have that and it does work but it doesn't work well enough not to wanna strangle someone and Im only 12.5 miles from tower farm. Im on 2nd floor apt pointing the exact direction of them and still get drop outs using it from time to time. I want drop free reception. It was nyprimus4 that I meant the reply for, sorry for the confusion.

Im not using the stealth master or something , the plane with wings looking one and it works well too now if I could just find the sweet spot. It was given to me so I thought id try and see what results I could get before I went with something better.

It seems to work but again kinda hit and miss better than the mini terk looking thing but still not perfect all the time.

beanpod

11-28-06, 01:13 AM

newbeestl

11-28-06, 10:45 AM

Hi, I'm looking to rig up for OTA HD signals from St. Louis. Below are my results from AntennaWeb after my exact address was entered. I don't really need to receive VHF since I also have cable running into my tv. I already have a pole outside so I will probably mount the antenna on it. The pole is about 20 feet high. Any recommendations would be appreciated! Thanks!

red - uhf KTVI-DT 2.1 FOX ST. LOUIS MO 263° 41.9 43
red - uhf KMOV-DT 4.1 CBS ST. LOUIS MO 262° 38.0 56
red - uhf KDNL-DT 30.1 ABC ST. LOUIS MO 268° 39.2 31
red - uhf KPLR-DT 11.1 CW ST. LOUIS MO 267° 39.0 26
blue - uhf KSDK-DT 5.1 NBC ST. LOUIS MO 266° 39.4 35

texasbrit

11-28-06, 10:57 AM

Suggest you use a CM4228.......

texasbrit

11-28-06, 11:19 AM

First, thanks to MAX HD and texasbrit for the earlier responses to my inquiry.

Now I'm leaning toward the 4228 shooting to 312* from inside my attic. 312* is almost square to my west gable and if I attic mount the 4228, I won't have to beef up my current outdoor pole and wind load issue is nullified. Line of sight is clear.

I may have one issue though and request input.

My west gable has a window (36"x28") in center, but exterior has ALUMINUM SIDING. Gut instinct tells me the siding will be trouble. Those of you with knowledge, I will appreciate a response. Thanks in advance.

I think your situation is a bit more complex than we had thought. With the CM4228 you are probably not going to get several of the channels without a rotor. So are you talking about trying to combine the two antennas? Combining antennas is a real challenge because the signals from the two antennas are out of phase with each other and so you are essentially creating multipath which is a killer for digital signals. Also just FYI you will have a couple more VHF stations to contend with in 2009 when analog goes away. WTVD is going back to channel 11 and WCTI is going back to channel 12. Although the CM4228 (in theory a UHF-only antenna)has OK performance on VHF-hi if WTVD is still rated "violet" when it goes back to VHF (don't know if it will be, depends on all sorts of factors) then this would be a stretch for a CM4228. You may need a VHF-hi band antenna for this, or you may need to go right now for a good VHF/UHF combination antenna on a rotor.

newbeestl

11-28-06, 11:37 AM

Suggest you use a CM4228.......

Was that directed at me? Do you think that would be good enough? I was kind of thinking the AntennasDirect 91XG.

afiggatt

11-28-06, 01:09 PM

Was that directed at me? Do you think that would be good enough? I was kind of thinking the AntennasDirect 91XG.
The XG-91 may well work just fine for you, even after the analog shutdown in February, 2009. We are now close enough to 2009 that whether the local upper VHF 7 to 13 stations will switch back to 7 to 13 (as is common) or whether any of the low VHF (2 to 6) will switch to low VHF (not common) has to be taken into consideration when selecting an antenna. However, the FCC list for the 1st & 2nd round digital channel selections for the post-shutdown era show that all of your VHF locals in St. Louis have opted to stay at UHF. This includes KPLR-DT CW 11 which will stay on UHF 26.

The CM 4228 is more widely recommended here than the XG-91 in part because the 4228 8 Bay design has decent response for upper VHF (7 to 13). The XG-91 is a UHF only antenna so it should be used for UHF stations only. In your case, unless there are more distant digital stations on or will be on upper VHF that you may want to try to get, the XG-91 will be ok. However, you are only 40 miles from the broadcast towers and in the flatter terrain of the mid-west, this is normally not considered a challenging or very long range application. There are any number of UHF antennas that should work just fine.

WS65711

11-28-06, 03:52 PM

I need to find the right size F-connectors to match to some existing RG-59 (I know, I know) cable runs in my house. The outer jacket of the cable is approx .22 inches diameter and the dielectric is approx .13 inches diameter. All of the RG-59 connectors I can find at Lowe's, Home Depot, and Radio Shack have an outer sleeve that is way too large of diameter for this cable, and will obviously never crimp down properly. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Can someone direct me to a source for connectors that properly fit the existing cable I have to work with? :o

AntAltMike

11-28-06, 05:56 PM

LucasD

11-28-06, 08:12 PM

Hello gurus... Great forum.

I just purchased a Panasonic HDTV with a built in tuner.

I connected it to my roof-top antenna, which is a standard UHF/VHF model from Radio Shack. I think it's about four feet in length. All of my HD channels came in great, but the channel I liked best, 36.1, would become slightly pixilated and drop audio for a second or two every couple of minutes.

Being a noob I figured I needed a better HD antenna, so I ordered a DB2 from Antennas Direct and installed it directly below my current antenna. I also ordered a signal combiner and connected my UHF/VHF antenna to the VHF input and the DB2 to the UHF input.

Much to my disappointment, channel 36.1 still exhibited the pixilation and audio drop outs. In addition to that, I found that when it rains channel 12.1 becomes very pixilated and will often drop out. This was very upsetting during Monday night football. :o

After doing some more reading, I'm beginning to think I'm suffering from multipath issues, rather than signal issues. The TV reports channel 36.1 as having a signal strength of 94% or better, even when it drops out a bit. Channel 12.1 drops to 74% as it becomes pixilated and eventually drops out. How can I discern between a weak signal and multipath problems? Also, if you believe it to be a multipath issue, can you recommend a better Antenna setup based upon my AntennaWeb data shown below?

I am in a single story house, surrounded by large trees.

* yellow - uhf WISN-DT 12.1 ABC MILWAUKEE WI 85° 4.9 34
* yellow - uhf WITI-DT 6.1 FOX MILWAUKEE WI 32° 6.2 33
* yellow - uhf WDJT-DT 58.1 CBS MILWAUKEE WI 85° 4.8 46
* yellow - uhf WTMJ-DT 4.1 NBC MILWAUKEE WI 99° 6.2 28
* yellow - vhf WMVS-DT 10.1 PBS MILWAUKEE WI 97° 6.0 8
* yellow - uhf WMVT-DT 36.1 PBS MILWAUKEE WI 97° 6.0 35
* yellow - uhf WPXE-DT 55.1 i KENOSHA WI 97° 6.0 40
* yellow - uhf WJJA-DT 48 IND RACINE WI TBD 102° 6.3 48
* yellow - uhf WCGV-DT 24.1 MNT MILWAUKEE WI 97° 6.0 25
* green - uhf WVTV-DT 18.1 CW MILWAUKEE WI 97° 6.0 61
* red - uhf WVCY-DT 30.1 REL MILWAUKEE WI 97° 6.0 22

crhinehart

11-28-06, 10:55 PM

As long as you don't have any multipath issues at your location, the CM 4221 should be a good antenna for your local stations. Five years ago when I bought my first STB, I also bought the 4221 but found that a couple of my locals had lots of dropouts. One station, just 5.5 miles away, sometimes wouldn't even decode. The problem turned out to be multipath...... <...URL removed...> I then purchased the CM 4228 and my particular multipath issues were resolved. I later read this information, which mentions the multipath issue relating to the 4221. <...URL removed...> If you see a lot of ghosting with your local analog stations, then you may experience some multipath issues with DTV.

Steve
Thanks, Steve.

1) How would I know whether or not I have multipath issues before purchasing and installing a 4221? I measured my attic space, and I have the room for a 4228 (40x40) with no problem. I'm not trying to throw money away, but should I go ahead and spring for the 4228? I have no idea what my reception would be., as I currently have no HDTV (although I just ordered the Samsung from J&R for $159, backordered) Maybe I should connect a set of rabbit ears in the attic just to get an idea what it's like. Thoughts?

2) The coax (RG-6) run between the attic and my theater room is presently unterminated. I used to work with twinax cable and there was a little kit thing that was self-contained. It had a screw-on sort of end and didn't, as I recall, require a special too. Is there any to terminate RG-6 without buying a $40 tool or paying someone $75 for a service call?

3) How do I feed the signal from my antenna AND the cable television feed into the Samsung, when I get it?

Thanks to all for your input!

Chardog

11-28-06, 11:40 PM

I need a little bit of help:

yellow - uhf KABC-DT 7.1 ABC LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 53
* yellow - uhf KCET-DT 28.1 PBS LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 59
* yellow - uhf KCOP-DT 13.1 MNT LOS ANGELES CA 17° 28.6 66
* yellow - uhf KFTR-DT 46.1 TFA ONTARIO CA 18° 28.5 29
* yellow - uhf KAZA-DT 54.1 AZA AVALON CA TBD 18° 28.5 47
* yellow - uhf KNBC-DT 4.1 NBC LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 36
* yellow - uhf KJLA-DT 57.1 IND VENTURA CA 18° 28.5 49
* yellow - uhf KPXN-DT 30.1 i SAN BERNARDINO CA 19° 27.9 38
* yellow - uhf KRCA-DT 62.1 IND RIVERSIDE CA 19° 27.9 68
* yellow - uhf KXLA-DT 44.1 IND RANCHO PALOS VERDES CA 18° 28.5 51
* yellow - uhf KVEA-DT 39 TEL CORONA CA TBD 19° 27.9 39
* yellow - uhf KTBN-DT 23.1 TBN SANTA ANA CA 18° 28.5 23
* yellow - uhf KTTV-DT 11.1 FOX LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 65
* yellow - uhf KMEX-DT 34.1 UNI LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 35
* yellow - uhf KTLA-DT 5.1 CW LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 31
* yellow - uhf KCAL-DT 9.1 IND LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 43
* yellow - uhf KCBS-DT 2.1 CBS LOS ANGELES CA 17° 28.6 60
* yellow - uhf KOCE-DT 50.1 PBS HUNTINGTON BEACH CA 18° 28.5 48
* yellow - uhf KDOC-DT 56.1 IND ANAHEIM CA 18° 28.5 32

I receive signal at 86% with my pre-amp / amp

but on certain channels, it fluctuates badly; it'll go from 60-80 and major blockage occurs. How can I get a solid 86 or anything solid? Why would my signal fluctuate like that?

I have 2 tv's and both have the same problem. Channel 5.1 seems good and solid, but 4.1, 7.1 and a bunch of others have the fluctuating problem.

beanpod

11-28-06, 11:42 PM

I think your situation is a bit more complex than we had thought. With the CM4228 you are probably not going to get several of the channels without a rotor. So are you talking about trying to combine the two antennas? Combining antennas is a real challenge because the signals from the two antennas are out of phase with each other and so you are essentially creating multipath which is a killer for digital signals. Also just FYI you will have a couple more VHF stations to contend with in 2009 when analog goes away. WTVD is going back to channel 11 and WCTI is going back to channel 12. Although the CM4228 (in theory a UHF-only antenna)has OK performance on VHF-hi if WTVD is still rated "violet" when it goes back to VHF (don't know if it will be, depends on all sorts of factors) then this would be a stretch for a CM4228. You may need a VHF-hi band antenna for this, or you may need to go right now for a good VHF/UHF combination antenna on a rotor.

Rats!! You figured my objective correct and I really appreciate your taking the time to assess my situation. I was confused about multi-path. I read the multi-path links posted earlier, but still couldn't ascertain whether multi-path becomes an issue upon combining coax from 2 antennas, just how the sgnal reaches an antenna. Makes sense though. What MAX HD mentioned about a combiner with signal separation is clearer now. Thanks for the WTVD/WCTI VHF move info. The plot thickens...and leads to new questions.

1) From what I've read, seems the 4221 is a bit better for upper VHF compared to the 4228. True or False??

Assuming roof mounted with rotor...

2) Would 4228 plus 7777 amp overload reception for my 12-24 mile range locals and cause multi-path issues??

3) Could the 4228 without amp pull in the 312*, 64 mile stations with confidence??

4) Could the 4221 plus 7777 amp pull in the 312* stations and be OK with locals??

5) Finally, any recommendations for a good VHF/UHF combination antenna??

Thanks again in advance.

Tower Guy

11-29-06, 08:31 AM

I need a little bit of help:

I receive signal at 86% with my pre-amp / amp

but on certain channels, it fluctuates badly; it'll go from 60-80 and major blockage occurs. How can I get a solid 86 or anything solid? Why would my signal fluctuate like that?

I have 2 tv's and both have the same problem. Channel 5.1 seems good and solid, but 4.1, 7.1 and a bunch of others have the fluctuating problem.

Do I read that correctly that you have both a preamp and an amp? If so, eliminate one of the two.

afiggatt

11-29-06, 05:37 PM

I need a little bit of help:

yellow - uhf KABC-DT 7.1 ABC LOS ANGELES CA 18° 28.5 53
[and other LA stations]

I receive signal at 86% with my pre-amp / amp

but on certain channels, it fluctuates badly; it'll go from 60-80 and major blockage occurs. How can I get a solid 86 or anything solid? Why would my signal fluctuate like that?
What antenna are you using? Indoor or outdoor rooftop setup? You should not be using both a pre-amp AND a amp if you are doing so. You may be getting some multipath and a better antenna or a better position might fix that.

texasozzie

11-29-06, 09:28 PM

texasbrit

11-29-06, 11:50 PM

texasozzie. Before we can answer you, give us your zip code, that will help to give you better recommendations.

texasbrit

11-29-06, 11:53 PM

1) From what I've read, seems the 4221 is a bit better for upper VHF compared to the 4228. True or False??

.

I only have a couple of minutes so I thought I'd respond to this part of your question. Go look at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html You will see that the CM4228 is much better than the CM4221 at VHF-hi. In fact there are really only two UHF antennas that have any sort of performance at VHF-hi, the CM4228 and the Antennas Direct 91XG.

beanpod

11-30-06, 01:31 AM

I only have a couple of minutes so I thought I'd respond to this part of your question. Go look at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html You will see that the CM4228 is much better than the CM4221 at VHF-hi. In fact there are really only two UHF antennas that have any sort of performance at VHF-hi, the CM4228 and the Antennas Direct 91XG.

The "Using UHF for VHF" graph does show better gain with the 4228. Unfortunately the 91XG wasn't shown on that graph. In the "UHF only" graph, the 91XG actually looks like it has better net gain compared to the 4228. The 91XG is a long puppy though. Wind load is a concern and why I had interest in the 4221 plus amp.

Range for the 91XG is shown to be 50-70+ miles (assume w/o amp). Do you think it would be OK for station in the 12-24 mile range??

What's the difference between dBi and dBd and which is more relavent?? Also, considering I already have one local DT transmitting at frequency 10 and another planned to move to 12 in 2009, what might be a suggested minimum VHF gain for 12-24 miles??

Again all input appreciated and again...Thanks.

goldrich

11-30-06, 08:54 AM

Thanks, Steve.

1) How would I know whether or not I have multipath issues before purchasing and installing a 4221? I measured my attic space, and I have the room for a 4228 (40x40) with no problem. I'm not trying to throw money away, but should I go ahead and spring for the 4228? I have no idea what my reception would be., as I currently have no HDTV (although I just ordered the Samsung from J&R for $159, backordered) Maybe I should connect a set of rabbit ears in the attic just to get an idea what it's like. Thoughts?

2) The coax (RG-6) run between the attic and my theater room is presently unterminated. I used to work with twinax cable and there was a little kit thing that was self-contained. It had a screw-on sort of end and didn't, as I recall, require a special too. Is there any to terminate RG-6 without buying a $40 tool or paying someone $75 for a service call?

3) How do I feed the signal from my antenna AND the cable television feed into the Samsung, when I get it?

Thanks to all for your input!

1) I was assuming you owned an analog TV with rabbit ears/UHF loop that would give you an idea as to how your analog reception is. This is usually, but not always, a pretty good way to gauge what your digital reception will be like. If the analog screen indicates a lot of ghosts, or ghosting around objects, more than likely there is multipath in your area.

2) You could try some of the screw-on F-connectors, but I've never had much luck with them. Sometimes you can find really good prices (cheap) on a coaxial cable stripper and crimp tool at local hardware stores or online. Or you could replace your current coaxial cable with new cable that already has the end connectors in place. I don't know what else to tell you there.

3) Unless the Samsung receiver has more than one antenna/cable input, you'll need something like this, which is popular around here.
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049643&cp=&origkw=a-b+switch&kw=a-b+switch&parentPage=search
I've also seen a model similar to this at Fry's Electronics, if you have one nearby.

Steve

texasbrit

11-30-06, 10:19 AM

The "Using UHF for VHF" graph does show better gain with the 4228. Unfortunately the 91XG wasn't shown on that graph. In the "UHF only" graph, the 91XG actually looks like it has better net gain compared to the 4228. The 91XG is a long puppy though. Wind load is a concern and why I had interest in the 4221 plus amp.

Range for the 91XG is shown to be 50-70+ miles (assume w/o amp). Do you think it would be OK for station in the 12-24 mile range??

What's the difference between dBi and dBd and which is more relavent?? Also, considering I already have one local DT transmitting at frequency 10 and another planned to move to 12 in 2009, what might be a suggested minimum VHF gain for 12-24 miles??

Again all input appreciated and again...Thanks.

The CM4228 and the 91XG are in general very similar in performance. A few people who have done comparitive testing have come out in favor of one over the other in their particular location, but with no majority one way or the other. They are both great antennas. If you look at the net gain graphs, the CM4228 has better performance until you get up to channel 52 or so. And after 2009 there will be no channels above 52 anyway. But remember the graphs are only based on simulations although real-world experience seems to support the data. Both antennas should be fine with VHF-hi at only 12-24 miles.

The CM4228 has higher wind-loading than the 91XG because it has a large area exposed to the wind - you may need a heavier-duty rotor. But the 91XG as you say is very long. The CM4228 has a much wider beamwidth than the 91XG meaning it can capture stations at 10-15 degrees away from where it is pointed; that's good because sometimes it means you can do without a rotor. The 91XG is very directional, but that makes it better at resisting multipath. So whatever you do it's a tradeoff.

The CM4221 is a great UHF antenna if it has enough gain for your location. It also has a very wide beamwidth. You would have to try it out and see what you get. Its VHF-hi performance according to the graphs is fairly weak although in the real world it seems to perform better than that. But you probably won't get WTVD when it goes back to channel 11 - even with the CM4228 or the 91XG.

You've got to be careful with your choice of preamp otherwise the close-in local stations will overload it. A Winegard HDP269 might be a better choice than the CM7777.

afiggatt

11-30-06, 10:32 AM

It was suggested by several people on here to get the Channel Master 4221, but all the stores are carrying is the new CM Stealth 3010. Is the unamplified version of that any good or is it better to order the 4221 online somewhere? If the 4221 is still the hands down winner (I can't find any charts on the 3010), hiw high abave the fenceline should it be mounted (as in 1-10' post or 2-10' posts assuming it is sunk in 2' footer).
If you go to the ChannelMaster website and dig up the product catalog, there is a reference page for the CM antennas. The CM Stealth 3010 has an average gain for UHF of -1.6 dB while the CM 4221 is 10.2 dB. In fact, the unamplified CM 3010 has the worse performance number for UHF of all the antennas on the reference page. The only advantage to the CM 3010 is that it may pick up close stations over a wide spread in azimuth and it looks cool (well, maybe to those who don't appreciate the beauty of a antenna that works. :D)

Doing a quick lookup of your posts, I see you posted your antennaweb results some months back and you have some upper VHF digital stations. The CM 4221 may not get those stations very well, but it will do a lot better for UHF than the CM 3010. You should post your zip code and situation (house, apartment, rooftop) again, so we can provide more accurate advice. Perhaps start a new thread in the Hardware reception forum as this thread gets hard to follow when we have 4 or 5 people asking for help at the same time.

beanpod

11-30-06, 12:16 PM

The CM4228 and the 91XG are in general very similar in performance. A few people who have done comparitive testing have come out in favor of one over the other in their particular location, but with no majority one way or the other. They are both great antennas. If you look at the net gain graphs, the CM4228 has better performance until you get up to channel 52 or so. And after 2009 there will be no channels above 52 anyway. But remember the graphs are only based on simulations although real-world experience seems to support the data. Both antennas should be fine with VHF-hi at only 12-24 miles.

The CM4228 has higher wind-loading than the 91XG because it has a large area exposed to the wind - you may need a heavier-duty rotor. But the 91XG as you say is very long. The CM4228 has a much wider beamwidth than the 91XG meaning it can capture stations at 10-15 degrees away from where it is pointed; that's good because sometimes it means you can do without a rotor. The 91XG is very directional, but that makes it better at resisting multipath. So whatever you do it's a tradeoff.

The CM4221 is a great UHF antenna if it has enough gain for your location. It also has a very wide beamwidth. You would have to try it out and see what you get. Its VHF-hi performance according to the graphs is fairly weak although in the real world it seems to perform better than that. But you probably won't get WTVD when it goes back to channel 11 - even with the CM4228 or the 91XG.

You've got to be careful with your choice of preamp otherwise the close-in local stations will overload it. A Winegard HDP269 might be a better choice than the CM7777.

Thanks again. At this point, I'll likely go with the 4228 w/o amp to begin with and see how it does. Heck, the ol Stealth is pulling in WNCN and WRAL digital channels at 312* at present, so maybe I'm in a topo sweet spot. I'm thinking a gable mount for the 4228 would be secure...AND Thanks Again!

Tower Guy

11-30-06, 08:11 PM

What's the difference between dBi and dBd and which is more relavent??

dBi is gain over an isotopic antenna; an antenna with no directivity at all.
dBd is gain over a dipole. A dipole has 2.14 dB gain over an isotrope. Either number is valid as along as you use the same standard for your comparisions. Some will contend that companies that use dBd are more honest than those who use dBi.

dBi + 2.14 = dBd
dBd - 2.14 = dBi

basaywhat

11-30-06, 11:00 PM

nikov3

12-01-06, 02:59 AM

i just bought a RCA Amplified Flat-Panel HDTV Antenna Model: ANT537
it picks up the hd channels great but i live near the train station so everytime a train comes by i lose signal to all hd channels.....i am only capable of using an indoor antenna, is there anything i can do to stop this from happening? or a different antenna i can use that might help? i dont know if the tv matters but its a olevia 232v

since everyone seems to be posting the list of channels in their area, heres mine (11219)

* yellow - uhf WNYE-DT 25.1 IND NEW YORK NY 27° 4.7 24
* yellow - uhf WNYW-DT 5.1 FOX NEW YORK NY 17° 8.6 44
* yellow - uhf WPIX-DT 11.1 CW NEW YORK NY 17° 8.6 33
* yellow - uhf WXTV-DT 41.1 UNI PATERSON NJ 17° 8.6 40
* yellow - uhf WNET-DT 13.1 PBS NEWARK NJ 17° 8.6 61
* yellow - uhf WABC-DT 7.1 ABC NEW YORK NY 17° 9.2 45
* yellow - uhf WCBS-DT 2.1 CBS NEW YORK NY 17° 8.6 56
* yellow - uhf WNBC-DT 4.1 NBC NEW YORK NY 19° 9.4 28
* yellow - uhf WNJU-DT 36 TEL LINDEN NJ 6° 6.2 36
* yellow - uhf WPXN-DT 31.1 i NEW YORK NY 6° 6.2 30
* yellow - uhf WWOR-DT 9.1 MNT SECAUCUS NJ 17° 8.6 38
* blue - uhf WNJN-DT 51.1 PBS MONTCLAIR NJ 340° 19.7 51
* violet - uhf WLIW-DT 21.2 PBS GARDEN CITY NY 81° 30.8 22
* violet - vhf WNJB-DT 8.1 PBS NEW BRUNSWICK NJ 283° 26.5 8
* violet - uhf WFUT-DT 68.1 TFA NEWARK NJ 17° 9.2 53

texasozzie

12-01-06, 08:48 AM

It was suggested by several people on here to get the Channel Master 4221, but all the stores are carrying is the new CM Stealth 3010. Is the unamplified version of that any good or is it better to order the 4221 online somewhere? If the 4221 is still the hands down winner (I can't find any charts on the 3010), hiw high abave the fenceline should it be mounted (as in 1-10' post or 2-10' posts assuming it is sunk in 2' footer).

I am in Houston witihn the 77077 zipcode. AntennaWeb lists the following data for me:

* yellow - uhf KTBU-DT 55.1 IND CONROE TX 154° 13.7 42
* yellow - uhf KPRC-DT 2.1 NBC HOUSTON TX 151° 13.5 35
* yellow - uhf KAZH-DT 57.1 AZA BAYTOWN TX 153° 13.1 41
* yellow - uhf KXLN-DT 45.1 UNI ROSENBERG TX 154° 13.7 46
* yellow - uhf KZJL-DT 44 SAH HOUSTON TX TBD 152° 14.2 44
* yellow - uhf KTXH-DT 20.1 MNT HOUSTON TX 154° 13.7 19
* yellow - uhf KNWS-DT 51.1 IND KATY TX 152° 13.9 52
* yellow - uhf KTMD-DT 47.1 TEL GALVESTON TX 153° 13.1 47
* yellow - uhf KTRK-DT 13.1 ABC HOUSTON TX 149° 13.3 32
* yellow - uhf KLTJ-DT 22.1 DAY GALVESTON TX 141° 37.7 23
* yellow - vhf KPXB-DT 49.1 i CONROE TX 153° 13.1 5
* yellow - uhf KRIV-DT 26.1 FOX HOUSTON TX 148° 13.3 27
* yellow - vhf KUHT-DT 8.1 PBS HOUSTON TX 148° 13.3 9
* yellow - uhf KFTH-DT 67.1 TFA ALVIN TX 153° 13.1 36
* yellow - uhf KHOU-DT 11.1 CBS HOUSTON TX 152° 13.9 31
* yellow - uhf KHCW-DT 39.1 CW HOUSTON TX 151° 13.5 38
* yellow - uhf KETH-DT 24.1 TBN HOUSTON TX 154° 13.7 24

I can't seem to find any information on the CM 3010 and I'm not sure how it compares to the CM4221. I couldn't find this discussed in the thread, but I apologize if I missed it. Thanks for any help anyone can provide on this.

beanpod

12-01-06, 10:00 AM

I am in Houston witihn the 77077 zipcode. AntennaWeb lists the following data for me:

* yellow - uhf KTBU-DT 55.1 IND CONROE TX 154° 13.7 42
* yellow - uhf KPRC-DT 2.1 NBC HOUSTON TX 151° 13.5 35
* yellow - uhf KAZH-DT 57.1 AZA BAYTOWN TX 153° 13.1 41
* yellow - uhf KXLN-DT 45.1 UNI ROSENBERG TX 154° 13.7 46
* yellow - uhf KZJL-DT 44 SAH HOUSTON TX TBD 152° 14.2 44
* yellow - uhf KTXH-DT 20.1 MNT HOUSTON TX 154° 13.7 19
* yellow - uhf KNWS-DT 51.1 IND KATY TX 152° 13.9 52
* yellow - uhf KTMD-DT 47.1 TEL GALVESTON TX 153° 13.1 47
* yellow - uhf KTRK-DT 13.1 ABC HOUSTON TX 149° 13.3 32
* yellow - uhf KLTJ-DT 22.1 DAY GALVESTON TX 141° 37.7 23
* yellow - vhf KPXB-DT 49.1 i CONROE TX 153° 13.1 5
* yellow - uhf KRIV-DT 26.1 FOX HOUSTON TX 148° 13.3 27
* yellow - vhf KUHT-DT 8.1 PBS HOUSTON TX 148° 13.3 9
* yellow - uhf KFTH-DT 67.1 TFA ALVIN TX 153° 13.1 36
* yellow - uhf KHOU-DT 11.1 CBS HOUSTON TX 152° 13.9 31
* yellow - uhf KHCW-DT 39.1 CW HOUSTON TX 151° 13.5 38
* yellow - uhf KETH-DT 24.1 TBN HOUSTON TX 154° 13.7 24

I can't seem to find any information on the CM 3010 and I'm not sure how it compares to the CM4221. I couldn't find this discussed in the thread, but I apologize if I missed it. Thanks for any help anyone can provide on this.

I haven't tried the 4221, but I have the CM3010 Stealthtenna with built-in amp board (part # CM3018 I think). It's about 25' high, no rotator and aimed towards an antenna farm 312* west at 64 miles and can pull in a couple of high power DT stations fairly consistant. In addition, in pulls solid DT signals from all my local stations at 42* (~ 20 miles) and even 114* (~ 12 miles) from the back side. It's VHF/UHF omnidirectional, low wind load. With your stations at ~ 15 miles, you would have no problem, esp with the amp card. I wish I had a similar situation. I orginally got it for VHF only some years ago, but it has performed well for UHF. Good Luck.

afiggatt

12-01-06, 11:06 AM

I can't seem to find any information on the CM 3010 and I'm not sure how it compares to the CM4221. I couldn't find this discussed in the thread, but I apologize if I missed it. Thanks for any help anyone can provide on this.
You must have missed my post just a few messages back on the CM 3010 specs on the channel master website. Channel Master's own spec sheet gives it a much poorer gain performance for UHF compared to the CM 4221 or every other antenna on their spec sheet. Go to http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/documentation.html and download the the Channel Master TV 5 catalog. Page 4 has their antenna reference chart.

You are close to your broadcast stations, but several are digitally broadcasting on VHF, including one on VHF 5. The CM 3010 is likely to get the VHF stations, so it does have that advantage over the CM 4221.

afiggatt

12-01-06, 11:26 AM

I need some help, I am new to this whole antenna thing I have a pole from previous antenna that I will use to mount a new one up on top of my house. I am just not real sure what i need. I live in zip code 61455 and this is my antennaweb data.
...
Can somebody please help me figure out what I need and what to buy so I can get this hooked up. I about to lose my distant networks from Dishnetwork and will not be able to watche the Bears games for the rest of the year.
bayaywhat, you are obviously in a challenging situation with only 1 nearby PBS station and the rest of the digital stations some 50, 60, 70 miles away. A useful trick with antennaweb is to click on the options link and enter a high height, say 300 or 500 feet for the antenna; then show digital stations only. Ignore the color code with this height, as you may never get all those stations, but it gives you an idea of where and how far away the digital stations are.

Plugging in 500' for your zip shows stations for ABC, Fox, NBC in Davenport, IA at 14 degrees and at some 61 miles. In another direction at 78 degrees are stations in Peoria, IL at 60 miles in another direction. Two of the stations have their analog channels on VHF (KWQC 6, WQAD 8), but a check of the FCC data for the post-2009 analog shutdown states that both stations will remain at UHF.

You will need that rooftop mount. But since all of your digital stations are at UHF, the 2 long range UHF antennas you should look at are the Channel Master 4228 8 Bay bowtie and the AntennasDirect XG91 combined with a rotator. The XG-91 is lighter than the CM 4228 and may present less stress for high winds on your existing mount. Look up the 2 antennas at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html under the comparing commercial antennas link.

revivalizt

12-02-06, 04:30 AM

I have Panasonic 42 plasma 60U
My question is :

I just bought the Terk HDTVa indoor antenna for my "Over the Air" HDTV broadcast.
and I know my plasma only has 1 coaxial input ..

I heard that you can add " a signal combiner " so that I dont have to use big external hardware to switch channels between my OTA and Cable..

My question is .. since my indoor antenna is already "amplified" .. should I get a "combiner" that's amplified also .. or a regular cheap combiner should do fine for my Cable TV?

Please I need inputs.

Thank you
Mike

ctdish

12-02-06, 07:39 AM

You cannot combine cable and antenna signals except fot the SD cable box output on channel 3 or 4.
John

goldrich

12-02-06, 10:07 AM

As ctdish mentioned, you cannot combine those two signals together. You could use an A-B switch to change the input (cable or OTA signal) into your Panny. A couple of examples........
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049619&cp=&origkw=a-b+switch&kw=a-b+switch&parentPage=search
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049643&cp=&origkw=a-b+switch&kw=a-b+switch&parentPage=search

bobchase

12-02-06, 12:21 PM

I am in Houston witihn the 77077 zipcode. AntennaWeb lists the following data for me:

* yellow - uhf KTBU-DT 55.1 IND CONROE TX 154° 13.7 42
* yellow - uhf KPRC-DT 2.1 NBC HOUSTON TX 151° 13.5 35
* yellow - uhf KAZH-DT 57.1 AZA BAYTOWN TX 153° 13.1 41
* yellow - uhf KXLN-DT 45.1 UNI ROSENBERG TX 154° 13.7 46
* yellow - uhf KZJL-DT 44 SAH HOUSTON TX TBD 152° 14.2 44
* yellow - uhf KTXH-DT 20.1 MNT HOUSTON TX 154° 13.7 19
* yellow - uhf KNWS-DT 51.1 IND KATY TX 152° 13.9 52
* yellow - uhf KTMD-DT 47.1 TEL GALVESTON TX 153° 13.1 47
* yellow - uhf KTRK-DT 13.1 ABC HOUSTON TX 149° 13.3 32
* yellow - uhf KLTJ-DT 22.1 DAY GALVESTON TX 141° 37.7 23
* yellow - vhf KPXB-DT 49.1 i CONROE TX 153° 13.1 5
* yellow - uhf KRIV-DT 26.1 FOX HOUSTON TX 148° 13.3 27
* yellow - vhf KUHT-DT 8.1 PBS HOUSTON TX 148° 13.3 9
* yellow - uhf KFTH-DT 67.1 TFA ALVIN TX 153° 13.1 36
* yellow - uhf KHOU-DT 11.1 CBS HOUSTON TX 152° 13.9 31
* yellow - uhf KHCW-DT 39.1 CW HOUSTON TX 151° 13.5 38
* yellow - uhf KETH-DT 24.1 TBN HOUSTON TX 154° 13.7 24

I can't seem to find any information on the CM 3010 and I'm not sure how it compares to the CM4221. I couldn't find this discussed in the thread, but I apologize if I missed it. Thanks for any help anyone can provide on this.

Tex,

you will get better data about Houston reception on this thread:
This is the first post, that tells you what to expect.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4432818&&#post4432818

This is the latest post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=452612&goto=newpost

If you are mounting the antenna outside think about using a CM 3016
If you are mounting the antenna in the attic, think about using a CM 4228

Both antennas can usually be found at Fry's or Lowes.

Call me at the station if you have questions

Bob Chase
Director of Engineering
KHCW-TV (ch39)

sebenste

12-02-06, 03:51 PM

I need some help, I am new to this whole antenna thing I have a pole from previous antenna that I will use to mount a new one up on top of my house. I am just not real sure what i need. I live in zip code 61455 and this is my antennaweb data.

* yellow - uhf WMEC-DT 22.1 PBS MACOMB IL 221° 5.8 21
red - uhf WTJR 16 TBN QUINCY IL 226° 48.9 16
red - uhf WMEC 22 PBS MACOMB IL 221° 5.8 22
blue - uhf KLJB 18 FOX DAVENPORT IA 13° 61.6 18
blue - vhf WQAD 8 ABC MOLINE IL 14° 60.6 8
blue - vhf WGEM 10 NBC QUINCY IL 225° 50.0 10
blue - uhf WRSP 55 FOX SPRINGFIELD IL 125° 78.7 55
blue - uhf WICS 20 ABC SPRINGFIELD IL 125° 77.9 20
blue - uhf WEEK 25 NBC PEORIA IL 78° 59.5 25
blue - uhf WHOI 19 ABC PEORIA IL 76° 57.8 19
blue - uhf WTVP 47 PBS PEORIA IL 78° 58.3 47
violet - vhf KWQC 6 NBC DAVENPORT IA 7° 75.6 6
* violet - uhf KWQC-DT 6.1 NBC DAVENPORT IA 14° 60.5 56
* violet - uhf WQAD-DT 8.1 ABC MOLINE IL 14° 60.6 38
violet - vhf WHBF 4 CBS ROCK ISLAND IL 7° 75.6 4
violet - uhf WQPT 24 PBS MOLINE IL 13° 61.6 24

Can somebody please help me figure out what I need and what to buy so I can get this hooked up. I about to lose my distant networks from Dishnetwork and will not be able to watche the Bears games for the rest of the year.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Hi basaywhat,

You're in Macomb...ouch. You're a "3 market" area, on the border between
the Peoria, Quad Cities, and Quincy, IL/Hannibal, MO markets.

You will need a rotor and an *outdoor* antenna, given your elevation and location. I'd recommend an XG-91 or a ChannelMaster 4228. The 4228 has a high wind load, and you get a lot of severe weather there. So, I'd go for the XG-91
available at AntennasDirect.com. If you are happy getting just one market, then point it or the ChannelMaster 4228 at Peoria. You may get more games, however, if you are able to pick up Quad Cities and also Quincy, so that's why I'd recommend the rotor. Line of sight is 60 miles from a rooftop, so an indoor antenna will likely yield marginal results.

I'd also get a Winegard AP-8700 preamplifier to lock those signals on bad weather days.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=SAP8700

hitekfun

12-02-06, 05:14 PM

Need assist on OTA suggestion.
I'm using the latest DirecTV dish and have an old HD Tivo that can't get the locals in HD.
I would like to add the locals OTA like I did in Dallas. I used a simple TERK there but left it with the house. I'd like a suggestion on the best HD OTA antenna for my location. Really looking for ABC the most.
THANKS!

Here's my AntennaWeb data:
DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
yellow - vhf WKRN 2 ABC NASHVILLE TN 11° 11.1 2
* yellow - uhf WKRN-DT 2.1 ABC NASHVILLE TN 11° 11.1 27
* yellow - uhf WNPT-DT 8.1 PBS NASHVILLE TN 11° 11.1 46
* yellow - vhf WSMV-DT 4.1 NBC NASHVILLE TN 1° 17.4 10
green - vhf WSMV 4 NBC NASHVILLE TN 1° 17.4 4
red - vhf WNPT 8 PBS NASHVILLE TN 11° 11.1 8
red - vhf WTVF 5 CBS NASHVILLE TN 11° 26.5 5
red - uhf WZTV 17 FOX NASHVILLE TN 1° 17.4 17
red - uhf WHTN 39 CTN MURFREESBORO TN 63° 27.4 39
blue - uhf WJFB 66 IND LEBANON TN 58° 32.5 66
blue - uhf WNAB 58 CW NASHVILLE TN 10° 26.2 58
blue - uhf WUXP 30 MNT NASHVILLE TN 10° 26.2 30
blue - uhf WPGD 50 TBN HENDERSONVILLE TN 30° 45.2 50
* violet - uhf WZTV-DT 17.1 FOX NASHVILLE TN 10° 26.2 15
* violet - uhf WTVF-DT 5.1 CBS NASHVILLE TN 11° 26.5 56
* violet - uhf WNAB-DT 58.1 CW NASHVILLE TN 10° 26.2 23
* violet - uhf WJFB-DT 44.1 IND LEBANON TN 58° 32.5 44
* violet - uhf WNPX-DT 28.1 i COOKEVILLE TN 10° 26.2 36

drwho9437

12-02-06, 05:46 PM

revivalizt

12-02-06, 06:45 PM

You cannot combine cable and antenna signals except fot the SD cable box output on channel 3 or 4.
John

So basicly we can use any switcher.. even the one from Walmart?
Would an expensive switcher do any better?

Do you mind telling me why a "combiner" would not work on Cable+Antenna OTA?

texasbrit

12-02-06, 06:52 PM

So basicly we can use any switcher.. even the one from Walmart?
Would an expensive switcher do any better?

Do you mind telling me why a "combiner" would not work on Cable+Antenna OTA?

Because the cable and OTA signals occupy the same frequency band.....

revivalizt

12-02-06, 09:27 PM

any good recommendation on which switcher is THE "best" ?
for OTA antenna + Cable ...

afiggatt

12-02-06, 10:25 PM

So my parents live about 40 miles from both Baltimore and Washington, on the top of a hill in an oak forest. The zip is 21770. I know plenty of theory about of radiation (physicist) however, practice is always best.

It would seem to me that multi path interference could be an issue with all the trees, but in general.

Antennas Direct 91XG and DB8 look like possible picks.

I should say that VHF signals from DC come in strong at this location. They have a medium UHF/VHF radioshack on the roof now. Last year they tried HDTV, but took it back as nothing much came in. I tried to convince them they just should get a better mast and antenna, but anyway.
Your parents are only 30 miles from the stations in both cities, but with a ~70 degree split in azimuth between them. The Channel Master 4228, the XG-91, and the DB-8 are all long range very directional antennas. Your parents would have to use a rotator to switch between the 2 cities with any of these long range types. You should use a medium range antenna with a wide pickup in azimuth.

All of the stations in DC and Baltimore are at full power on their digital broadcast (with 2 exceptions) and currently broadcasting on UHF. With your parents located on a hilltop and using an outdoor rooftop antenna, the tricky part is the wide spread in azimuth between broadcast stations in the 2 cities.

I live in Sterling, VA with the DC stations at 16 miles and the Baltimore stations at 43 miles with a 50+ degree spread in azimuth between the 2 cities. With a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay UHF antenna (combined with a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp) in the attic, I can get all the DC and Baltimore stations along 4 other stations spread around me in azimuth without a rotator. The advantage of the CM 4221 is a wide pickup beam pattern(see the charts at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html) which should allow your parents to get both Baltimore and DC without having to use a rotator all the time.

The disadvantage of the CM 4221 is that it is a UHF antenna with limited response for upper VHF. I get a good picture for the analog WJLA 7 and WUSA 9 with the CM 4221, but they are only 16 miles away. In February, 2009, after the analog shutdown, channels 7 & 9 in DC and 11 and 13 in Baltimore will switch their digital broadcast to their upper VHF channels. (WRC 4, WMAR 2, WTTG 5 will stay at UHF). So anyone putting an antenna in the area should be prepared for this. My suggestion is to put up the CM 4221 on the pole above the current Radio Shack antenna - if this will work. Use a VHF/UHF combiner for the VHF from the current antenna and the UHF from the CM 4221. This should give you a good setup for all the VHF and UHF analog & digital stations.

You should also check the Baltimore-Washington thread for info if you have not done so: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=517400.

afiggatt

12-02-06, 11:50 PM

Need assist on OTA suggestion.
I'm using the latest DirecTV dish and have an old HD Tivo that can't get the locals in HD.
I would like to add the locals OTA like I did in Dallas. I used a simple TERK there but left it with the house. I'd like a suggestion on the best HD OTA antenna for my location. Really looking for ABC the most.
THANKS!

Here's my AntennaWeb data: [trimmed for digital stations only]
* yellow - uhf WKRN-DT 2.1 ABC NASHVILLE TN 11° 11.1 27
* yellow - uhf WNPT-DT 8.1 PBS NASHVILLE TN 11° 11.1 46
* yellow - vhf WSMV-DT 4.1 NBC NASHVILLE TN 1° 17.4 10
* violet - uhf WZTV-DT 17.1 FOX NASHVILLE TN 10° 26.2 15
* violet - uhf WTVF-DT 5.1 CBS NASHVILLE TN 11° 26.5 56
* violet - uhf WNAB-DT 58.1 CW NASHVILLE TN 10° 26.2 23
* violet - uhf WJFB-DT 44.1 IND LEBANON TN 58° 32.5 44
* violet - uhf WNPX-DT 28.1 i COOKEVILLE TN 10° 26.2 36
Are you looking to use an indoor, attic or an outdoor mounted antenna? Your stations are mostly in the same direction and up to 26 miles. You have a WSMV-DT NBC 4 broadcasting on VHF 10 at 17 miles, the rest are on UHF. So you need an antenna which can receive upper VHF and UHF. With station up to 32 miles away, you should be looking at a attic or roof top antenna for reliable reception. Look for a medium range UHF/upper VHF antenna for starters.

drwho9437

12-03-06, 12:31 AM

While they do live on a hill they aren't the highest point for miles around. What they have is probably a medium direction antenna. They don't care much about he Baltimore, market. It think the trees or the local hill must be somewhat of an issue. Sorry I didn't make it more clear. I will check the BW thread thanks for the pointer.

Your parents are only 30 miles from the stations in both cities, but with a ~70 degree split in azimuth between them. The Channel Master 4228, the XG-91, and the DB-8 are all long range very directional antennas. Your parents would have to use a rotator to switch between the 2 cities with any of these long range types. You should use a medium range antenna with a wide pickup in azimuth.

All of the stations in DC and Baltimore are at full power on their digital broadcast (with 2 exceptions) and currently broadcasting on UHF. With your parents located on a hilltop and using an outdoor rooftop antenna, the tricky part is the wide spread in azimuth between broadcast stations in the 2 cities.

I live in Sterling, VA with the DC stations at 16 miles and the Baltimore stations at 43 miles with a 50+ degree spread in azimuth between the 2 cities. With a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay UHF antenna (combined with a Channel Master 7777 pre-amp) in the attic, I can get all the DC and Baltimore stations along 4 other stations spread around me in azimuth without a rotator. The advantage of the CM 4221 is a wide pickup beam pattern(see the charts at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html) which should allow your parents to get both Baltimore and DC without having to use a rotator all the time.

The disadvantage of the CM 4221 is that it is a UHF antenna with limited response for upper VHF. I get a good picture for the analog WJLA 7 and WUSA 9 with the CM 4221, but they are only 16 miles away. In February, 2009, after the analog shutdown, channels 7 & 9 in DC and 11 and 13 in Baltimore will switch their digital broadcast to their upper VHF channels. (WRC 4, WMAR 2, WTTG 5 will stay at UHF). So anyone putting an antenna in the area should be prepared for this. My suggestion is to put up the CM 4221 on the pole above the current Radio Shack antenna - if this will work. Use a VHF/UHF combiner for the VHF from the current antenna and the UHF from the CM 4221. This should give you a good setup for all the VHF and UHF analog & digital stations.

You should also check the Baltimore-Washington thread for info if you have not done so: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=517400.

basaywhat

12-03-06, 10:53 AM

hitekfun

12-03-06, 01:35 PM

I'm trying to do this with in-atic efforts.
I really need to know the best antenna units for my area and for the 30 or so miles i need to pick up a signal from.
Thoughts?

goldrich

12-03-06, 03:04 PM

Several people have responded to my telling me to use a 91-XG with a rotor, What is a good rotor to use? I was looking around and there are so many different ones. Which is the best one for what I need?

I want to thank the 2 who answered my first post and have given me some great ideas!

Thanks in advance!

I'm currently using the CM 9521A, which seems to be rather popular around here, with the 91XG and the Triax Unix 100 (2 ants. horizontally stacked).
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/9521A.htm
Attached picture shows the 91XG on the left and the Triax on the right.

In the spring I'm replacing the CM 9521A rotor on the right with this stronger, more heavy-duty rotor.
http://www.gigaparts.com/store.php?action=profile&sku=ZYS-G-450A

bigorange

12-03-06, 04:57 PM

Here is my antenna web info:

red - uhf WBXX 20 CW CROSSVILLE TN 32° 19.1 20
red - uhf WVLR 48 REL TAZEWELL TN 64° 55.8 48
blue - uhf WKOP 15 PBS KNOXVILLE TN 76° 32.6 15
blue - vhf WVLT 8 CBS KNOXVILLE TN 77° 31.6 8
* blue - uhf WVLT-DT 8.1 CBS KNOXVILLE TN 77° 31.6 30
blue - vhf WATE 6 ABC KNOXVILLE TN 76° 32.4 6
* blue - uhf WATE-DT 6.1 ABC KNOXVILLE TN 76° 32.4 26
blue - vhf WBIR 10 NBC KNOXVILLE TN 76° 32.6 10
* blue - uhf WBIR-DT 10.1 NBC KNOXVILLE TN 76° 32.4 31
blue - uhf WTNZ 43 FOX KNOXVILLE TN 76° 32.4 43
* blue - uhf WTNZ-DT 43.1 FOX KNOXVILLE TN 76° 32.4 34
blue - vhf WDEF 12 CBS CHATTANOOGA TN 227° 68.5 12
blue - uhf WDSI 61 FOX CHATTANOOGA TN 228° 63.0 61
blue - uhf WTCI 45 PBS CHATTANOOGA TN 228° 63.3 45
blue - vhf WTVC 9 ABC CHATTANOOGA TN 228° 67.0 9
blue - vhf WRCB 3 NBC CHATTANOOGA TN 228° 66.9 3
* violet - uhf WKOP-DT 17.1 PBS KNOXVILLE TN 77° 31.6 17
* violet - uhf WFLI-DT 53.1 CW CLEVELAND TN 228° 63.0 42

I'm believe I'm going to set-up the CM-4228 in the attic. I'm mainly interested in the HDTV out of Knoxville at around 30 miles. Might try a CM 7777 preamp with a rotor also just incase I can get more stations than displayed.great site,thanks

tibidip

12-03-06, 06:36 PM

texasbrit

12-03-06, 07:48 PM

Hello all,

I just had my directv service upgraded to the HD package. Unfortunately the installer had to swap out my existing Aspen multiswitch and replace it with a Zinwell WB68 switch. The consequence of this is that I end up losing my OTA reception because the antenna signal was run through the Aspen multiswitch.

From what the installer is telling me there is no output for the ANT In on the Zinwell WB68. Is there an adapter that I can use to run the antenna signal through the Zinwell?

Also is it me or is the OTA HD reception superior to Directv HD? I compare the same programming on the directv and the OTA reception by switching between them using a small portable antenna and I must say that the directv HD cannot hold a candle to the OTA HD reception. Anybody else notice this? It might be function Directv compressing the signal but I don't know.

Any input would be appreciated.

First, OTA vs DirecTV HD. Assuming you have enough signal strength, the OTA will always be better than the DirecTV HD locals because OTA locals are broadcast with MPEG-2 encoding/compression, and DirecTV locals are broadcast in MPEG-4, and there will be some losses in the conversion. This has nothing to do with the "HD-lite" situation, where DirecTV actually reduces the resolution of the signal to save on bandwidth, as far as I know there has been no real move to do this on HD locals because right now the new satellites have plenty of bandwidth. At their best, the HD locals are as good as (or maybe "almost") the OTA channels. The MPEG-4 encoders still have some issues but they seem to be correcting these.

Second, OTA. The reason why the WB68 does not have an antenna input is that in 2007 DirecTV will launch two new satellites, DirecTV 10 and 11. These will broadcast in the Ka-lo band, which overlaps the OTA frequency band. So if you simply diplex the OTA onto the satellite signal, the two will interfere with each other. "Officially" this means you need to run a new cable to each location where you need OTA.
There is a probable solution and it involves the b-band converters, if you have an H20 receiver you should have one of these, the hR20 has two, one for each line. These plug into the inputs of the receiver, and they take the Ka-lo signals and move them to part of the Ka-hi band so the receiver can decode them. There are technology reasons why DirecTV had to do it this way. So if you move the b-band converter to the output of the multiswitch (you will need some additional connectors to change the "gender" of the connections on the b-band converter) this will move the signals into Ka-hi just after the multiswitch. So you can use diplexers to add the OTA signal to the satellite signal and then remove it again at the receiver. The signal path then looks like multiswitch, b-band converter, diplexer (OTA in), cable run,diplexer (OTA out),receiver.
Do this for each cable where you want OTA. If you need OTA on more than one cable you would need a splitter (2-way, 4-way, whatever you need) on the incoming OTA signal so you can route it to the diplexers.
Everyone believes this will work, DirecTV "insiders" have said it will work, but until the new satellites start transmitting in mid-2007 we won't know for sure.

afiggatt

12-03-06, 09:00 PM

I'm trying to do this with in-atic efforts.
I really need to know the best antenna units for my area and for the 30 or so miles i need to pick up a signal from.
Thoughts?
All of the digital stations on your list, with the exception of the independent, are in the same direction. As I posted before, you have 1 digital station on VHF 10. The CM 4221 is a good medium range UHF antenna, but that channel 10 is on the iffy side for it. If you have enough room in the attic, the CM 4228 8 bay may be on the overkill side for your stations at the 12 to 26 mile ranges, but it should be able to get the VHF 10 station.

tibidip

12-04-06, 02:52 PM

First, OTA vs DirecTV HD. Assuming you have enough signal strength, the OTA will always be better than the DirecTV HD locals because OTA locals are broadcast with MPEG-2 encoding/compression, and DirecTV locals are broadcast in MPEG-4, and there will be some losses in the conversion. This has nothing to do with the "HD-lite" situation, where DirecTV actually reduces the resolution of the signal to save on bandwidth, as far as I know there has been no real move to do this on HD locals because right now the new satellites have plenty of bandwidth. At their best, the HD locals are as good as (or maybe "almost") the OTA channels. The MPEG-4 encoders still have some issues but they seem to be correcting these.

Second, OTA. The reason why the WB68 does not have an antenna input is that in 2007 DirecTV will launch two new satellites, DirecTV 10 and 11. These will broadcast in the Ka-lo band, which overlaps the OTA frequency band. So if you simply diplex the OTA onto the satellite signal, the two will interfere with each other. "Officially" this means you need to run a new cable to each location where you need OTA.
There is a probable solution and it involves the b-band converters, if you have an H20 receiver you should have one of these, the hR20 has two, one for each line. These plug into the inputs of the receiver, and they take the Ka-lo signals and move them to part of the Ka-hi band so the receiver can decode them. There are technology reasons why DirecTV had to do it this way. So if you move the b-band converter to the output of the multiswitch (you will need some additional connectors to change the "gender" of the connections on the b-band converter) this will move the signals into Ka-hi just after the multiswitch. So you can use diplexers to add the OTA signal to the satellite signal and then remove it again at the receiver. The signal path then looks like multiswitch, b-band converter, diplexer (OTA in), cable run,diplexer (OTA out),receiver.
Do this for each cable where you want OTA. If you need OTA on more than one cable you would need a splitter (2-way, 4-way, whatever you need) on the incoming OTA signal so you can route it to the diplexers.
Everyone believes this will work, DirecTV "insiders" have said it will work, but until the new satellites start transmitting in mid-2007 we won't know for sure.

Thanks for your input.

sjcabby

12-04-06, 03:55 PM

Will the CM 4228 fit onto the j-mount that DirecTV uses? DirecTV put up a Winegard propeller antenna using a j-mount. I want to mount the CM 4228 onto the j-mount but need to know what else I might need to make it fit. Thanks.

Rammitinski

12-04-06, 04:59 PM

sjcabby

12-04-06, 07:02 PM

No. The 4228 is much too large and heavy, and has too high of a wind load.

That's what I figured. On Saturday a D* tech was at the house and he told me it would be fine. I don't think I believe him.

Jedah Doma

12-04-06, 11:05 PM

I've been trying to trudge through this thread, but the length is already quote overwhelming. I'm an HD "noob" with a few quick questions.

Just for the info, I have a Sony CRT 970.

At the moment I have Cox cable. For now I'm getting HD signals from the feed from Cox. I have no idea how or why this works, but suffice to say, I was just happy it did and I could get HD channels. The problem is I don't watch any of the other BS offered with my Cox cable and I have just the basic digital package. Most of the time if the mrs. and I want to watch a show, it's on normal over the air channels.

So, I'm thinking about just dumping the Cox and going with an antenna to watch the HD channels and such. I've seen the stuff at Wal-Mart (your typical Phillips BS antenna), but I'm not sure how good it will perform. I've been scanning through this thread and have seen a lot of thoughts on a good antenna. Most folks in this threads have talked about a channel master antenna that is freaking huge. While I don't doubt the quality, I'm looking for something under the $50. I don't want to spend a lot, but I want something good enough that I can get decent reception.

As others have suggested, I've gone to antenna web and found out all that fun information about the channels and such.

yellow - uhf KSAS-DT 24.1 FOX WICHITA KS 321° 16.8 26
yellow - uhf KAKE-DT 10.1 ABC WICHITA KS 320° 17.3 21
yellow - uhf KSCW-DT 33.1 CW WICHITA KS 321° 18.6 31
yellow - uhf KSNW-DT 3.1 NBC WICHITA KS 320° 16.7 45
red - vhf KWCH 12 CBS HUTCHINSON KS 320° 40.8 12
red - uhf KWCH-DT 12.1 CBS HUTCHINSON KS 320° 40.8 19
red - uhf KSMI-LP 51 AZA WICHITA KS 353° 7.7 51
red - vhf KSNW 3 NBC WICHITA KS 320° 17.0 3
red - uhf KSCW 33 CW WICHITA KS 320° 18.8 33
red - uhf KMTW 36 MNT HUTCHINSON KS 329° 27.9 36
red - uhf KTQW-CA 49 IND WICHITA KS 354° 7.7 49
red - uhf KSAS 24 FOX WICHITA KS 321° 16.8 24
red - uhf K59DA 59 TBN WICHITA KS 2° 8.5 59
red - vhf KAKE 10 ABC WICHITA KS 320° 17.3 10
blue - uhf KFVT-LP 40 IND WICHITA KS 358° 10.6 40
blue - uhf KMTW-DT 36.1 MNT HUTCHINSON KS 334° 26.8 35
blue - vhf KPTS 8 PBS HUTCHINSON KS 319° 40.9 8
violet - uhf KPTS-DT 8.1 PBS HUTCHINSON KS 319° 40.9 29

Basically I want the normal 4 channels plus the CW and anything else is a bonus. Mind you I'm renting a house so I don't really want to tear up my yard or attic with a huge antenna. Thanks for any help in advance and if you need me to clarify anything, just let me know.

ama299

12-06-06, 11:21 AM

blue - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 32
blue - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 35
violet - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.8 50
violet - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 26
violet - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 21

Trying to decide the best antenna for this setup. I was thinking the 91XG antenna would work best, but is there a cheaper one that would work. I'm also having a hard time with the wife "I don't want an ugly antenna on the roof" I live in a wood house no steel do you think I could mount the 91XG in the attic? I know I'm better off with it outside on the roof of my two story house. It's just a pain to get up there. I would need a preamp too.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks

afiggatt

12-06-06, 11:45 AM

Trying to decide the best antenna for this setup. I was thinking the 91XG antenna would work best, but is there a cheaper one that would work. I'm also having a hard time with the wife "I don't want an ugly antenna on the roof" I live in a wood house no steel do you think I could mount the 91XG in the attic? I know I'm better off with it outside on the roof of my two story house. It's just a pain to get up there. I would need a preamp too.

The 91XG is close to 8 feet long, so you need a lot of room for it. No reason it should not work in the attic, provided the loss from the roof is not enough to cause you to not get those stations. But if those stations are at high power levels, 48 miles is not that far. If the size of the 91XG is a problem, the Channel Master 4228 should do the job as well, but then you have to fit a large 4'x4' square shaped object in the attic. Try the antenna in the attic first, but also don't lock it down in position until you find a good spot with the best signals from the all stations.

ama299

12-06-06, 12:24 PM

The 91XG is close to 8 feet long, so you need a lot of room for it. No reason it should not work in the attic, provided the loss from the roof is not enough to cause you to not get those stations. But if those stations are at high power levels, 48 miles is not that far. If the size of the 91XG is a problem, the Channel Master 4228 should do the job as well, but then you have to fit a large 4'x4' square shaped object in the attic. Try the antenna in the attic first, but also don't lock it down in position until you find a good spot with the best signals from the all stations.

Thanks for the info

intrac

12-06-06, 02:28 PM

ama299

Have you looked at this site:

http://www.solidsignal.com/antenna_selector.asp

afiggatt

12-06-06, 03:53 PM

IJust for the info, I have a Sony CRT 970.

At the moment I have Cox cable. For now I'm getting HD signals from the feed from Cox. I have no idea how or why this works, but suffice to say, I was just happy it did and I could get HD channels. The problem is I don't watch any of the other BS offered with my Cox cable and I have just the basic digital package. Most of the time if the mrs. and I want to watch a show, it's on normal over the air channels.

So, I'm thinking about just dumping the Cox and going with an antenna to watch the HD channels and such. I've seen the stuff at Wal-Mart (your typical Phillips BS antenna), but I'm not sure how good it will perform. I've been scanning through this thread and have seen a lot of thoughts on a good antenna. Most folks in this threads have talked about a channel master antenna that is freaking huge. While I don't doubt the quality, I'm looking for something under the $50. I don't want to spend a lot, but I want something good enough that I can get decent reception.

As others have suggested, I've gone to antenna web and found out all that fun information about the channels and such.

yellow - uhf KSAS-DT 24.1 FOX WICHITA KS 321° 16.8 26
yellow - uhf KAKE-DT 10.1 ABC WICHITA KS 320° 17.3 21
yellow - uhf KSCW-DT 33.1 CW WICHITA KS 321° 18.6 31
yellow - uhf KSNW-DT 3.1 NBC WICHITA KS 320° 16.7 45
red - uhf KWCH-DT 12.1 CBS HUTCHINSON KS 320° 40.8 19
blue - uhf KMTW-DT 36.1 MNT HUTCHINSON KS 334° 26.8 35
[list of stations trimmed]

Basically I want the normal 4 channels plus the CW and anything else is a bonus. Mind you I'm renting a house so I don't really want to tear up my yard or attic with a huge antenna. Thanks for any help in advance and if you need me to clarify anything, just let me know.
No one responded to your post, so I hope you see this reply.

Looking at your list of digital stations, they are all currently digitally broadcasting on UHF, you live in rather flat country if I am not mistaken, and the stations are in the same direction, mostly around 20 miles away with the KWCH CBS station at 41 miles. The CBS station comes up red on antennaweb because there is a low power STA entry for it in the FCC database, but there is also a licensed entry for the DT broadcast at a full 1000 Kilowatts. The Wichita area locals thread should be able to tell you if it is at full power.

I would not be surprised if you could get most of the stations with a Silver Sensor UHF antenna mounted inside the side of the house facing the broadcast towers. Maybe even the CBS station given the flat country. Because you do not want to mess with a rooftop antenna because of the rented house, my suggestion is try a AntennasDirect DB-2 or even a Silver Sensor UHF antenna. I have not looked up whether any of the stations will switch their digital broadcast to VHF come February, 2009, but since you live in a rental, I would assume that is not that important. Another possibility is a Square Shooter ir DB-2 mounted on the outside of the house attached to the eaves facing the broadcast towers. You could put that up and take it down without any serious damage to the house besides some easily repaired screw holes. Run the RG-6 cable indoors through a window or service access point.

The Silver Sensor has been sold at some Circuit Cities recently under the Philips brand name, model # PHDTV1, for around $25. If you buy one there, you could take it back if it does not work. You would likely have to buy the DB-2 on-line.