The Official AVS Antenna Topic! [Text View] - Page 22

Jedah Doma

12-07-06, 11:58 PM

No one responded to your post, so I hope you see this reply.

Looking at your list of digital stations, they are all currently digitally broadcasting on UHF, you live in rather flat country if I am not mistaken, and the stations are in the same direction, mostly around 20 miles away with the KWCH CBS station at 41 miles. The CBS station comes up red on antennaweb because there is a low power STA entry for it in the FCC database, but there is also a licensed entry for the DT broadcast at a full 1000 Kilowatts. The Wichita area locals thread should be able to tell you if it is at full power.

I would not be surprised if you could get most of the stations with a Silver Sensor UHF antenna mounted inside the side of the house facing the broadcast towers. Maybe even the CBS station given the flat country. Because you do not want to mess with a rooftop antenna because of the rented house, my suggestion is try a AntennasDirect DB-2 or even a Silver Sensor UHF antenna. I have not looked up whether any of the stations will switch their digital broadcast to VHF come February, 2009, but since you live in a rental, I would assume that is not that important. Another possibility is a Square Shooter ir DB-2 mounted on the outside of the house attached to the eaves facing the broadcast towers. You could put that up and take it down without any serious damage to the house besides some easily repaired screw holes. Run the RG-6 cable indoors through a window or service access point.

The Silver Sensor has been sold at some Circuit Cities recently under the Philips brand name, model # PHDTV1, for around $25. If you buy one there, you could take it back if it does not work. You would likely have to buy the DB-2 on-line.

A big thanks for the response. I will go check out that atenna you sggested. That should be a good solution. I'd have an outdoor atenna without tearing up the house. Thanks again man, you're a life saver! :D

afiggatt

12-08-06, 12:17 AM

A big thanks for the response. I will go check out that atenna you sggested. That should be a good solution. I'd have an outdoor atenna without tearing up the house. Thanks again man, you're a life saver! :D
I don't know about being a life saver, but I will take the thanks. I did not post the link, but just in case you have not seen this handy website for antenna info, it has picture and charts for many of the antennas discussed here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html. Click on the comparing commercial link.

sabex

12-08-06, 06:51 PM

afiggatt

12-08-06, 10:35 PM

I am looking for a workable indoor antenna that I can use to get my locals channels in HD. Can anyone make a suggestion? Thanks
antennaweb information:
* yellow - uhf WTVR-DT 6.1 CBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 25
* yellow - uhf WRIC-DT 8.1 ABC PETERSBURG VA 328° 14.4 22
* yellow - uhf WWBT-DT 12.1 NBC RICHMOND VA 348° 11.1 54
* yellow - uhf WCVE-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 42
* green - uhf WCVW-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 44
* red - uhf WUPV-DT 47.1 CW ASHLAND VA 29° 28.3 47
* red - uhf WRLH-DT 35.1 FOX RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 26
First, all of the stations on your list are currently digitally broadcasting on UHF channels (the actual broadcast channel is the last number on the row). All, except for the CW station, are only 14 miles away and in the same exact direction. WRLH-DT Fox 35 comes in with a red color code, but the FCC data base (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WRLH and click on the FCC database link) shows a STA low power of 12.4 KW and a full power construction permit. Check with the Richmond locals thread to find out if WRLH-DT has gone full power or not.

If the CW station is not that important, you should be able to get the locals with an indoor Silver Sensor UHF antenna. Circuit City has been selling them under the Philips band name for $25, model # PHDTV1. If you have an attic, you could consider putting up a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay bowtie UHF antenna. It should get all your stations including the CW station.

strider209

12-09-06, 04:14 AM

Sorry if this is a cross post, I'm just trying to get as much info as I can.
First off, I get the following from antennaweb

* yellow - uhf KXTV-DT 10.1 ABC SACRAMENTO CA 320° 25.4 61
* yellow - uhf KSPX-DT 29.1 i SACRAMENTO CA 321° 27.4 48
* yellow - uhf KOVR-DT 13.1 CBS STOCKTON CA 320° 25.4 25
* yellow - uhf KUVS-DT 19.1 UNI MODESTO CA 50° 34.7 18
* red - uhf KTNC-DT 42.1 AZA CONCORD CA 253° 32.4 63
* blue - uhf KCRA-DT 3.1 NBC SACRAMENTO CA 320° 25.8 35
* blue - uhf KTXL-DT 40.1 FOX SACRAMENTO CA 321° 27.5 55
* blue - uhf KQCA-DT 58.1 MNT STOCKTON CA 324° 26.4 46
* violet - uhf KMAX-DT 31.1 CW SACRAMENTO CA 323° 26.7 21
* violet - uhf KVIE-DT 6.1 PBS SACRAMENTO CA 321° 27.5 53
* violet - vhf KNTV-DT 11.1 NBC SAN JOSE CA 241° 63.6 12

I've tried various indoor antennas but I only get a weak signal.
As far as I know the area between me and Sacramento is flat.
There is some overhead powerlines about 1/4 mile north of me and a municipal airport about 2-4 miles east of me. I'm mainly interested in getting the towers in Sacramento (320º-324º) I know 2 stations are planned to switch back to VHF in 2009 but I can deal with those later. If I do a roof mount the run from the antenna to the receiver would be less than 25 ft. Attic mount is preferred but if a roof mount is necessary I would like the antenna to be small/medium sized (i.e. CM 4228 would be too big) From previous suggestions it seems like CM 4221 is the way to go. I'd like to try something local from Radio Shack or Lowes than can be returned if needed before I commit to buying a CM 4221 that would not be returnable. What would be my best bet for an antenna to try? FYI: To my knowledge Lowes carries CM 3010, 3016, 3018 and 3020. They also carry some pre-amps. My budget for antenna/pre-amp is $75 total but less would be better!

sabex

12-09-06, 06:03 AM

First, all of the stations on your list are currently digitally broadcasting on UHF channels (the actual broadcast channel is the last number on the row). All, except for the CW station, are only 14 miles away and in the same exact direction. WRLH-DT Fox 35 comes in with a red color code, but the FCC data base shows a STA low power of 12.4 KW and a full power construction permit. Check with the Richmond locals thread to find out if WRLH-DT has gone full power or not.

If the CW station is not that important, you should be able to get the locals with an indoor Silver Sensor UHF antenna. Circuit City has been selling them under the Philips band name for $25, model # PHDTV1. If you have an attic, you could consider putting up a Channel Master 4221 4 Bay bowtie UHF antenna. It should get all your stations including the CW station.
Awesome. I really appreciate the advice.

Rammitinski

12-09-06, 02:25 PM

I'd like to try something local from Radio Shack or Lowes than can be returned if needed before I commit to buying a CM 4221 that would not be returnable. What would be my best bet for an antenna to try? FYI: To my knowledge Lowes carries CM 3010, 3016, 3018 and 3020. They also carry some pre-amps. My budget for antenna/pre-amp is $75 total but less would be better!Well, the Steathtenna there is priced at nearly $65.00 (including tax), and the one CM pre-amp I know of that they sell is well over $10.00. (They do carry a couple of other CM distribution amps, I know - but they are most certainly over $10.00, also.) And I think that even the cheapest full-size UHF/VHF model isn't much cheaper than the Stealth (the 3016?) - if it even actually is. You'd have to go there and price things. You might have to try without the amp first. Plus, you're going to need other installation hardware, remember.

But they are very accomodating, as far as returns go. I've done that many times there myself. Just keep the packaging intact.

I'm pretty familiar with your situation from your other posts, and I understand your hesitance to order online because of your reception troubles so far. If you have a Fry's in your area, they sell the 4228 for $50.00. They also carry the Stealth, and the special amp that goes inside (if you need it - although you can use any amp). I know that Menards sells a large, VHF/UHF Philips model. Home Depot used to carry a mid-sized RCA model, but I know the one by me stopped carrying it. Other than that, all I can think of is Radio Shack. Or Abt's Electronics, if you have one of those around.

I would just go with whatever was suggested to you as far as the CM models at Lowe's in the other posts (I can't recall which offhand). They are very easy to return to. Those guys that replied to you know their stuff pretty good - I would definitely trust them. The Stealthtenna is very easy to assemble and disassemble, if you wanted to just start with that. But if the Radio Shack U75R didn't do the job for you, I doubt if the Stealth will. I just tried both myself, and the U75R was definitely better, on distance, anyway. And the Stealth is ANYTHING BUT directional, if that matters to you. But, if I remember right, you are not that awful far from the towers at all, so anything's possible. You'll probably just have to keep experimenting.

shep22

12-09-06, 08:39 PM

I am about 50 miles from both Philadelphia and New YorkCity (in Princeton, NJ). Do I have any chance of getting HDTV signals from an outdoor antenna at that distance? I want the PBS channel primarily.

(As of now, I am receiving fair-to-good (but far from excellent) conventional VHF analog TV from both places, with a very good directional rooftop antenna. NYC reception used to be a lot better when I got signals from the top of the World Trade Center…)

bierboy

12-09-06, 11:24 PM

Welcome to the thread!

You should be able to get UHF digitals (depending on their power) from that distance if you're on the rooftop. But use a good UHF antenna like a Channel Master or Winegard designed for picking up signals from that distance. For Channel Master, I'd use the CM 4221 or CM 4228. Go to www.antennaweb.org then plug in your address, and it'll tell you what to expect (and recommend an antenna type). But be aware -- antennaweb sometimes skews to the conservative side.

bberkley

12-10-06, 09:04 AM

I just upgraded to a DirecTV H20 and the Slimline MPEG4 Ka/Ku dish, and only get a few local channels in HD from Portland, but not CBS or ABC. I have an el-cheapo indoor antenna that allows me to pick up KOAC out of Corvallis, and thats the only OTA signal I get right now.

Antennaweb says this for my location:

* yellow - uhf KOAC-DT 7.1 PBS CORVALLIS OR 247° 8.5 39
* yellow - uhf KVAL-DT 13.1 CBS EUGENE OR 164° 44.9 25
* yellow - uhf KEPB-DT 28.1 PBS EUGENE OR 164° 44.9 29
* yellow - uhf KMTR-DT 16.1 NBC SPRINGFIELD OR 155° 37.3 17
* green - uhf KEZI-DT 9.1 ABC EUGENE OR 155° 37.3 44
* red - uhf KOIN-DT 6.1 CBS PORTLAND OR 359° 62.3 40
* red - uhf KPDX-DT 49.1 MNT VANCOUVER WA 358° 62.5 48
* red - uhf KRCW-DT 32.1 CW SALEM OR 359° 62.3 33
* red - vhf KPXG-DT 22.1 i SALEM OR 359° 62.3 4
* red - uhf KOPB-DT 10.1 PBS PORTLAND OR 359° 62.6 27
* red - uhf KGW-DT 8.1 NBC PORTLAND OR 359° 62.6 46
* red - uhf KATU-DT 2.1 ABC PORTLAND OR 359° 62.3 43
* red - uhf KPTV-DT 12.1 FOX PORTLAND OR 359° 62.5 30
* red - vhf KOAB-DT 11 PBS BEND OR FCC Ext 96° 95.9 11
* red - uhf KLSR-DT 34.1 FOX EUGENE OR 163° 44.9 31
* blue - uhf KOHD-DT 51.1 ABC BEND OR TBD 96° 95.9 51

I'm looking at getting a chimney mount, a CM 4228 and a CM 7777 preamp and pointing it to the Eugene market so I can get the rest of the channels I want.

Will the proximity to Corvallis and the use of a preamp overload the other signals?

Should I run it into my Zinwell WB68? Will that allow me to tune the OTA signals from my H20 DirecTV box? Or do I need to split the signal where it comes out of the wall, and run it into the antenna input on my HDTV? Or run it direct to the TV?

greywolf

12-10-06, 10:32 AM

The WB68 does not have an antenna input. The Ka band MPEG4 signals used by D* locals includes a 250-750MHz section that overlaps OTA frequencies. They cannot occupy the same cable before reaching the B Band Converter that normally is connected to the rear of the H20. A separate line for OTA until the Sat line reaches the BBC is required.

bberkley

12-10-06, 11:42 AM

greywolf

12-10-06, 11:10 PM

Both diplexers, combining and diverging, need to be between the BBC and the receiver. I'd connect the Ant leg of the bottom diplexer to the H20. It's handier having the OTA channels in the guide.

coldnorth

12-11-06, 09:03 PM

strider209

12-12-06, 12:35 AM

Looks like I might be ordering a 4221. I tried the $25 radio shack yagi again along with the CM 3041 Spartan 3 preamp that was extremely discounted at my local Lowes ($4) I tried attic mounting since hardware for attic mount was $5 compared to $20+ for roof mounting. Also I don't have to deal with the time/effort/aesthetics of an outside antenna. I'm still getting 1 signal bar on my PC but am able to tune in all the channels in Sacramento (320 degree area) though I still get stuttering on occasion. Not sure if this is related to my tuner card or software. I'm using windows media center on Windows Vista RTM. I still prefer an attic mount and the 4221 is only about $10 more than the Radio Shack yagi so I think I'll try that. Anyone have any suggestions? Is it my antenna setup that's the problem? maybe my tuner card? Issue with Vista RTM and windows media center? Any help would be great!

bberkley

12-12-06, 01:38 AM

I talked to a local antenna business today about getting the CM 4228, and he felt that would be sufficient for OTA from the Eugene, OR market without a preamp.

holl_ands

12-12-06, 01:51 AM

up in the north central united states we have our tv station's transmitting antennas at pretty large distances from us. The nice thing is that we have them all in line for the most part so just one big antenna is all we need.

whey are hdtv receivers so hard to come by now? i can't find any at best buy, walmart, sears, sams club, rex tv, or anywhere else! does anyone have an idea why this is?

1. Cuz most of us who bought sets without ATSC tuners already bought an OTA STB if we wanted/needed one....
(and could dump it onto eBay if Time Warner Cable ever adds CW-HD).

2. Cuz HD SAT Rcvrs now include ATSC tuner and HD LIL channels....and SD SAT Receiver owners are dumping their old OTA STB's onto eBay as they upgrade to HD SAT.

3. Cuz ATSC tuner mandate forced manufacturers to INCLUDE it in new DTVs.

4. Cuz the government has funded the DEVELOPMENT of a mass produced, low cost OTA STB prototypes that would presumably be available for only $50, with $40 of that defrayed via a COUPON program....however, now we all know that the OTA STB's will be limited to low-rez output only and may (or may not) be carefully rationed to those most affected by the Feb2009 analog shutdown. But interest in new OTA STB development has been dampened due to the continuing uncertainty as to what will or won't be allowed in the specs--how the program will be administered--and not to mention trying to compete against what are now government subsidized OTA STB developers (LG and Thomson/RCA):
http://www.tri-vision.ca/documents/2006/NTIA%20Seeks%20Converter%20Comments.pdf

Hence a separate OTA HDTV STB is a small, vanishing, niche market.

Suggest you consider an on-line order for the new Samsung DTB-H260F OTA STB:
http://www.pricegrabber.com/search_getprod.php?masterid=29373080&search=samsung+DTB-H260F

kawahl

12-12-06, 04:42 PM

Firstly, thank you in advance for your help. What a great site!

I live in Western New York by Buffalo and Directv will not allow me to receive the HDTV feeds from the locals, so I would like to put up an ota antenna. Based on what I have learned thusfar, I have a printout from the AntennaWeb site as follows.

yellow - vhf WIVB 4 CBS BUFFALO NY 252° 15.9 4
* yellow - uhf WIVB-DT 4.1 CBS BUFFALO NY 252° 15.9 39
yellow - vhf WKBW 7 ABC BUFFALO NY 247° 16.5 7
* yellow - uhf WKBW-DT 7.1 ABC BUFFALO NY 247° 16.5 38
yellow - uhf WNYO 49 MNT BUFFALO NY 290° 5.5 49
yellow - vhf WGRZ 2 NBC BUFFALO NY 262° 11.4 2
* yellow - uhf WGRZ-DT 33.1 NBC BUFFALO NY 262° 11.4 33
red - uhf WNYB 26 TBN JAMESTOWN NY 251° 51.7 26
red - uhf WPXJ 51 i BATAVIA NY 74° 19.0 51
* blue - uhf WPXJ-DT 53 i BATAVIA NY TBD 74° 19.0 53
* blue - uhf WNYB-DT 26.1 TBN JAMESTOWN NY 251° 51.7 27
blue - uhf WNED 17 PBS BUFFALO NY 313° 34.0 17
blue - uhf WNGS 67 RTN SPRINGVILLE NY 223° 29.9 67
* violet - uhf WNGS-DT 46 RTN SPRINGVILLE NY TBD 220° 29.0 46
* violet - uhf WNYO-DT 49.1 MNT BUFFALO NY 290° 5.5 34
violet - uhf WNLO 23 CW BUFFALO NY 313° 34.0 23

I can do an external antenna without too much trouble.

Thanks for the thoughts and help!
Keith

coldnorth

12-12-06, 06:10 PM

I am an engineer at a TV station. The correct answer is VHF channels 2-6 are being taken by the FCC and UHF channels 52-69 are being taken back. Our channel 8 is the channel we are going to broadcast our HDTV signal on. Because of this reason, we are going to lose our channel 59 that we are currently using for our DTV channel. The reason we are choosing to use our current designation is that to broadcast UHF channels, the FCC requires a higher power output. This requires us to use very high power vacuum tubes and larger power supplies, filters, ect. The power requirements for VHF are lower and we can be solid state.

afiggatt

12-12-06, 06:38 PM

Firstly, thank you in advance for your help. What a great site!

I live in Western New York by Buffalo and Directv will not allow me to receive the HDTV feeds from the locals, so I would like to put up an ota antenna. Based on what I have learned thusfar, I have a printout from the AntennaWeb site as follows.
If you can provide your zip code, it is easier for us to look up the digital stations you might be able to get. First question is whether you are interested in the digital stations only or do you want to also get the analog stations that are at low VHF? Second, are you interested in only the Buffalo stations?

All of the Buffalo stations are currently digitally broadcasting on UHF. A check of the FCC spreadsheet for the digital channel selections after the 2009 analog shutdown shows the Buffalo stations, including WKBW-DT ABC 7, have elected to stay at UHF. You are 5 to 16 miles from the Buffalo broadcast towers and there are a few other smaller network digital stations on UHF scattered around you in azimuth. You could probably get most of the Buffalo stations with an indoor Silver Sensor UHF antenna. But if you have no issues with a rooftop mount and reliable reception for the digital stations is what matters, the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay bowtie UHF antenna is probably the best overall for your situation. The CM 4221 is around $25 plus shipping from solidsignal.com or warrenelectronics.com.

afiggatt

12-12-06, 06:54 PM

I am an engineer at a TV station. The correct answer is VHF channels 2-6 are being taken by the FCC and UHF channels 52-69 are being taken back. Our channel 8 is the channel we are going to broadcast our HDTV signal on.
True, UHF channels 52 to 69 are being taken away by the FCC. However, VHF 2 to 6 is still currently reserved for TV broadcasting after the 2009 analog shutdown. While many stations have elected to stay out of the lower VHF channels, some 50+ stations have selected to digitally broadcast from VHF 2 to 6 after the analog shutdown. Real nuisance for those who will live in outer fringes of those stations because they will have to put up a very large lower VHF antenna whereas with only upper VHF and UHF stations, a more compact and lighter antenna setup is possible.

Obviously way too late and would reduce the amount the federal government expects to raise from the spectrum auction as the upper UHF frequencies are more valuable and useful than low VHF for portable communications, but a better long term solution might be to keep, say, UHF 52 to 54 for TV and dump low VHF altogether for digital TV. But the choices have been made and that is not going to change now. There has been speculation that we may eventually see several of the low VHF 2 to 6 channels being taken away, but as I understand it, it is only speculation at this point.

kawahl

12-12-06, 09:07 PM

My zip code is 14167

wildwillie6

12-13-06, 07:48 AM

afiggatt

12-13-06, 12:12 PM

My zip code is 14167
I had to enter a rather high antenna height for your zip code to get a list of the Buffalo stations. A lot of blue and red color codes for reception, despite being only 12 to 18 miles from the broadcast towers. However, the map that pops up for just your zip puts in somewhere in a large blank area, so the default location for the zip may be down at a low point. How hilly is your area?

I also did not get a Fox station in Buffalo to show up on the antennaweb list, but a check shows there is a WUTV-DT Fox 29 (UHF 14) which has a low power and full digital power entry in the FCC database. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WUTV and click on the FCC database link. Antennaweb is using the low power entry but the station may be at full power. Check with the Buffalo locals thread for WUTV-DT status.

With the color codes, I think you should go with the rooftop antenna. I still recommend the Channel Master 4221 UHF antenna if the digitals are all you want. Add a Channel Master or Winegard pre-amp later if you can't get reliable reception with just the antenna or if you have a long (RG-6) cable run.

psm1man

12-13-06, 01:34 PM

Thank you in advance for your help. What a great site!

I live SouthEast of Rochester,NY - currently have Dish 622 and would like to put up an ota antenna for UHF locals out of Syracuse (Syracuse seems to carry more HD than the Roc stations according to a neighbor and TitanTv). Below is a printout from the AntennaWeb (zip code 14425):

* lt green – uhf WSYR-DT 9.1 ABC SYRACUSE NY 101° 66.4 17
red - uhf WXXI 21 PBS ROCHESTER NY 327° 17.7 21
red - uhf WNYS 43 MNT SYRACUSE NY 106° 57.7 43
red - uhf WSYT 68 FOX SYRACUSE NY 106° 57.7 68
red - vhf WHAM 13 ABC ROCHESTER NY 327° 17.7 13
* blue - uhf WHAM-DT 13.1 ABC ROCHESTER NY 327° 17.7 59
blue - vhf WTVH 5 CBS SYRACUSE NY 101° 62.1 5
blue - vhf WSTM 3 NBC SYRACUSE NY 101° 61.6 3
blue - uhf WPXJ 51 i BATAVIA NY 275° 34.5 51
* blue - uhf WXXI-DT 21.1 PBS ROCHESTER NY 327° 17.7 16
blue - vhf WHEC 10 NBC ROCHESTER NY 327° 17.7 10
blue - uhf WCNY 24 PBS SYRACUSE NY 101° 61.6 24
blue - vhf WROC 8 CBS ROCHESTER NY 327° 17.7 8
blue - uhf WUHF 31 FOX ROCHESTER NY 327° 17.7 31
violet - uhf W26BZ 26 MNT VICTOR NY 334° 7.1 26
* violet - uhf WPXJ-DT 53 i BATAVIA NY TBD 275° 34.5 53
* violet - uhf WNYS-DT 44.1 MNT SYRACUSE NY 106° 57.7 44
* violet - uhf WSTM-DT 3.1 NBC SYRACUSE NY 101° 61.6 54
violet - vhf WSYR 9 ABC SYRACUSE NY 101° 66.4 9

I would like to go with an antenna and preamp if required initially (for UHF only) – and later add a rotor if justified. Have been reading here and elsewhere that the 4228 and 91XG seem to be good choices, but am open to whatever will do the job. I have a neighbor using a TERK TV38 (with amp or Preamp?) and getting good reception from Syr. (though I don’t need the VHF as he does). I do have a couple of questions:
1.- Will the 91XG be too directional to pick up WSYT - 68 – FOX at 5 degrees difference (at 60+ miles) if I point the antenna at the 101 antennas? (have a little concern with the wind loading on 4228)
2.- Will a single Maple tree about 100 ft from my house hurt reception in the future if I try to get the Roc stations?

Thanks,
Lyle...

afiggatt

12-13-06, 05:34 PM

I live SouthEast of Rochester,NY - currently have Dish 622 and would like to put up an ota antenna for UHF locals out of Syracuse (Syracuse seems to carry more HD than the Roc stations according to a neighbor and TitanTv). Below is a printout from the AntennaWeb (zip code 14425):
[snip]
I would like to go with an antenna and preamp if required initially (for UHF only) – and later add a rotor if justified. Have been reading here and elsewhere that the 4228 and 91XG seem to be good choices, but am open to whatever will do the job. I have a neighbor using a TERK TV38 (with amp or Preamp?) and getting good reception from Syr. (though I don’t need the VHF as he does). I do have a couple of questions:
1.- Will the 91XG be too directional to pick up WSYT - 68 – FOX at 5 degrees difference (at 60+ miles) if I point the antenna at the 101 antennas? (have a little concern with the wind loading on 4228)
2.- Will a single Maple tree about 100 ft from my house hurt reception in the future if I try to get the Roc stations?
Summarizing what I see with antennaweb, you have two group of digital stations: Rochester tightly clumped at 324 degrees & 16 miles and Syracuse at 102 to 108 degrees & around 60 miles. All of the digital stations are currently at UHF. For the Syracuse stations, you should go with a outdoor or rooftop mount.

However, the FCC spreadsheet shows that WHEC-DT NBC 10 and WHAM-DT ABC 13 in Rochester have selected to switch their digital broadcast back to the their upper VHF 10 & 13 channels after the analog shutdown in February, 2009. All of the other stations in Rochester & Syracuse will stay at UHF. What this means is that, if you want your setup to be able to get all the stations come 2009, you need an antenna setup that can receive upper VHF. The good news is that it is 2 of the closer set of stations at only 16 miles that will go upper VHF, not the far more distant ones in Syracuse.

I have seen posts here that claim the the 91XG can pick up upper VHF channels, but not hard numbers or details on this. The CM 4228 does have some upper VHF response as shown here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html (click on the CM 4228 link and also check the VHF for UHF chart down the page).

The CM 4228 also has a good backlobe for picking up stations behind it. Your stations are around 140 degrees apart. It is possible that if you aim the CM 4228 at or a bit south of Syracuse, that you might well be able to get the Rochester stations from the backside without having to rotate the antenna. If you were to go this route, you would probably still want a rotator as this may not work in all conditions or seasons and you may still either have to tweak the aim from time to time or have to rotate for a solid lock on a particular station.

Now if someone with a 91XG in similar circumstances could weigh in here, that would be helpful. But from the looks of it, the CM 4228 may be the better fit of the two long range UHF antennas for your situation.

Neil L

12-13-06, 05:36 PM

1.- Will the 91XG be too directional to pick up WSYT - 68 – FOX at 5 degrees difference (at 60+ miles) if I point the antenna at the 101 antennas? (have a little concern with the wind loading on 4228)
2.- Will a single Maple tree about 100 ft from my house hurt reception in the future if I try to get the Roc stations?

Thanks,
Lyle...1. Probably not.
2. The tree could cause problems when full of leaves and the wind is blowing, expecially if the signal has to pass through the foliage.

psm1man

12-13-06, 08:52 PM

Thanks to both for the follow-up.
Another question if you will, which preamp would you recommend for the 4228? I have read a couple of places where the 7777 might overload my closer channels and that the HTB269 may be better.
Thanks again in advance for your inputs.
Lyle...

chazzz

12-14-06, 12:39 AM

Can anyone recommend an antenna for my location? solidsignal.com recommends the DB4. Thanks in advance for your expertise.

* yellow - uhf KTVI-DT 2.1 FOX St. Louis MO 249° 5.6 43
* yellow - uhf KMOV-DT 4.1 CBS ST. LOUIS MO 207° 2.7 56
* yellow - uhf KDNL-DT 30.1 ABC ST. LOUIS MO 291° 3.0 31
* yellow - uhf KPLR-DT 11.1 CW ST. LOUIS MO 283° 2.7 26
* yellow - uhf KSDK-DT 5.1 NBC ST. LOUIS MO 275° 3.0 35
* yellow - uhf KETC-DT 9.1 PBS ST. LOUIS MO 229° 8.7 39
* red - uhf KNLC-DT 24.1 FMN ST. LOUIS MO 226° 20.3 14
* red - uhf WRBU-DT 46.1 MNT E. ST. LOUIS IL 223° 16.7 47

strider209

12-14-06, 12:42 AM

They are all UHF and most are yellow and within 10 miles.
I'd try an indoor first like a silver sensor.

tyromark

12-14-06, 10:09 AM

psm1man - I use the Weingard 269 pre-amp with a cm4228, have stations from 7 to 37 miles away and get good results. FWIW

chazzz

12-14-06, 10:26 AM

They are all UHF and most are yellow and within 10 miles.
I'd try an indoor first like a silver sensor.

Thanks, I'll check it out. I should note that I don't have accessible attic space to mount. Even if this is indoor can I mount on the roof? If not what outdoor model can you recommend?

afiggatt

12-14-06, 10:54 AM

Thanks, I'll check it out. I should note that I don't have accessible attic space to mount. Even if this is indoor can I mount on the roof? If not what outdoor model can you recommend?
You are only 3 to 5 miles from the bulk of the St. Louis broadcast towers. The only HD network station that is moderately far away is the My Network WRBU-DT 46.1 MNT at 16 miles. All of the stations are digitally broadcasting on UHF and all of the St. Louis stations will stay at UHF after the analog shutdown in 2009, so a UHF antenna will do the job for you.

I would start off with the Silver Sensor UHF indoor antenna. Unless there are issues with the house construction - wire mesh in the walls, metal frame construction, I would keep your antenna setup simple. Try an indoor antenna first and see if you can get all the stations including WRBU-DT with it. According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WRBU (click on the FCC database link and follow down to the Service Contour map link for details), the power is at 109 KW, so you may not be able to pick it up with the Silver Sensor. OTOH, the broadcast antenna is 318 meters above the average terrain (HAAT) so that helps with coverage. Note: wikipedia is very handy for looking up station broadcast info using the call letters.

If you can buy the Silver Sensor locally, you can return it if it does not get all the stations. Circuit City has been carrying the Silver Sensor under the Philips brand name, model # PHDTV1, for $25, but not all stores may stock it. Circuit City has the Terk copy of the Silver Sensor. Starting out, I would stay away from the amplified antennas given your close proximity to some of the broadcast towers. At 2.7 miles, a coat hanger bent into a UHF loop touching the coaxial socket would probably work.

Added: for Silver Sensor info, go to http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html and go down to http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html (although there is a lot of stuff there on how to combine two Silver Sensors to deal with multipath)

psm1man

12-14-06, 12:46 PM

TYROMARK - Thanks for the input - based on other posts, I had been leaning toward the Winegard 269.

kawahl

12-14-06, 02:13 PM

Firstly, Thanks for the help!

Fortunately I live on top of a rather tall hill. I will take your suggestion and report back! Anything specific re: where to purchase or how to install the CM 4221 UHF?

afiggatt

12-14-06, 03:41 PM

Firstly, Thanks for the help!

Fortunately I live on top of a rather tall hill. I will take your suggestion and report back! Anything specific re: where to purchase or how to install the CM 4221 UHF?
For buying antennas on-line, solidsignal.com or warrenelectronics.com are routinely recommended on here. The CM 4221 is not widely sold in the chain stores. I brought my CM 4221 from solidsignal last year and was satisfied with their service, especially the quick shipment of a replacement CM 4221, after UPS somehow managed to crush the 1st one in shipment. If you want to go local on mounting equipment, try Lowe's or Radio Shack. The home supply stores such as Lowe's or Home Depot are also cheaper on RG-6 co-axial cable.

holl_ands

12-14-06, 03:44 PM

why are hdtv receivers so hard to come by now?

Certainly all the reasons in http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=9145757#post9145757 apply, but in addition:

After March 1, the DVD recorders are going to have ATSC tuners. Some of them will presumably output hi-def, thereby providing the functionality of an HDTV receiver, even though they can only record a down-rezzed version to the DVD. These DVD recorders won't cost as much as (DVD recorder + HDTV receiver).

As Joe Isuzu used to say, you have my word on it.
Yup, LG has low-rez DVD Recorders coming "soon" that will also have an OTA ATSC tuner:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/LGline2007.html
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=748465
Too bad the recordings aren't hi-rez.....

Which also might help to explain why LG isn't making an OTA capable DVR.
The $800 TIVO Series 3 seems to be the ONLY OTA DVR in production (other than an even more expensive HTPC).
Hopefully, more are on the way.....

Since we are mentioning "value added" (e.g. up-scale) products that just happen to also have an ATSC tuner,
I suppose we should also include the JVC HD-DT100 D-VHS (truly hi-rez) Recorder with an (extra cost) integrated ATSC tuner:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=455324
Which, of course, can record nearly ANY channel on cable (including encrypted premiums) when connected
to a suitably equipped (and WORKING!!!!) IEEE-1394 Firewire interface.

chazzz

12-14-06, 04:04 PM

You are only 3 to 5 miles from the bulk of the St. Louis broadcast towers. The only HD network station that is moderately far away is the My Network WRBU-DT 46.1 MNT at 16 miles. All of the stations are digitally broadcasting on UHF and all of the St. Louis stations will stay at UHF after the analog shutdown in 2009, so a UHF antenna will do the job for you.

I would start off with the Silver Sensor UHF indoor antenna. Unless there are issues with the house construction - wire mesh in the walls, metal frame construction, I would keep your antenna setup simple. Try an indoor antenna first and see if you can get all the stations including WRBU-DT with it. According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WRBU (click on the FCC database link and follow down to the Service Contour map link for details), the power is at 109 KW, so you may not be able to pick it up with the Silver Sensor. OTOH, the broadcast antenna is 318 meters above the average terrain (HAAT) so that helps with coverage. Note: wikipedia is very handy for looking up station broadcast info using the call letters.

If you can buy the Silver Sensor locally, you can return it if it does not get all the stations. Circuit City has been carrying the Silver Sensor under the Philips brand name, model # PHDTV1, for $25, but not all stores may stock it. Circuit City has the Terk copy of the Silver Sensor. Starting out, I would stay away from the amplified antennas given your close proximity to some of the broadcast towers. At 2.7 miles, a coat hanger bent into a UHF loop touching the coaxial socket would probably work.

Added: for Silver Sensor info, go to http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html and go down to http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html (although there is a lot of stuff there on how to combine two Silver Sensors to deal with multipath)

Thanks!

I am currently using this antenna, which was already installed on the roof of my house when I moved in: Radio Shack Antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103084&cp=&origkw=antenna&kw=antenna&parentPage=search) . It's big and bulky, and right now it's not picking everything up.

From the list of channels I have a strong signal for 4.1, 5.1, and 30.1. I have a sporadic signal on 2.1. I have nothing for 9.1, 11.1, 24.1, or 46.1.

What I am interested in doing is keeping 4.1, 5.1 and 30.1, strengthening 2.1, and also picking up 9.1 and 11.1, while trying to find something more asthetically pleasing than the big kite on top of my roof. I am not interested in the red channels 24.1 or 46.1, I don't watch them.

I could probably go up and adjust it to help with some of the other channels but I want to replace it anyway.

sregener

12-14-06, 04:40 PM

Now if someone with a 91XG in similar circumstances could weigh in here, that would be helpful. But from the looks of it, the CM 4228 may be the better fit of the two long range UHF antennas for your situation.

I've got a 91XG and with a Winegard preamp, I get an analog signal from the local NBC affiliate (channel 10) from almost any direction. It is best when misaimed by about 30 degrees, but the picture is near perfect. For long distance (over 60 miles) it's not as great.

I don't have hard and fast numbers, but with a rotor, I get as good a picture with the 91XG on channel 10 as I did with a Winegard HD8200P. Draw your own conclusions.

The 4228 is murder on rotors - I never recommend one for an outdoor install because of the "sail" effect.

afiggatt

12-14-06, 05:06 PM

I am currently using this antenna, which was already installed on the roof of my house when I moved in: Radio Shack Antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103084&cp=&origkw=antenna&kw=antenna&parentPage=search) . It's big and bulky, and right now it's not picking everything up.

From the list of channels I have a strong signal for 4.1, 5.1, and 30.1. I have a sporadic signal on 2.1. I have nothing for 9.1, 11.1, 24.1, or 46.1.
I wish you had posted that you already had that antenna on the roof before. Do you have that EXACT antenna or just something close to it? Looking more closely at your antennaweb list dump, you have up to a 80 degree spread in azimuth between the stations. Your problem is that antenna is too directional for UHF channels in your situation. You may find a better aim, but that antenna will have a hard time picking up stations 80 degrees apart.

Since you already have a roof mount with a pole and cabling running indoors to the TV, I will change my recommendation. If the analog stations don't matter to you, replace that antenna with either a Channel Master 4221 UHF 4 Bay or the smaller AntennasDirect DB-2. I think either one will do the job. Check my post a couple of posts back on where to buy either one on-line. If your roof mount can handle the wind load of the CM 4221, it will likely get all of your locals with a little tweaking in the aim (somewhere between the CBS and ABC stations).

Check your antenna cabling to see if it is RG-6 coaxial. If it is RG-59 and you have a long run, consider replacing it with RG-6.

chazzz

12-14-06, 05:29 PM

I wish you had posted that you already had that antenna on the roof before. Do you have that EXACT antenna or just something close to it? Looking more closely at your antennaweb list dump, you have up to a 80 degree spread in azimuth between the stations. Your problem is that antenna is too directional for UHF channels in your situation. You may find a better aim, but that antenna will have a hard time picking up stations 80 degrees apart.

Since you already have a roof mount with a pole and cabling running indoors to the TV, I will change my recommendation. If the analog stations don't matter to you, replace that antenna with either a Channel Master 4221 UHF 4 Bay or the smaller AntennasDirect DB-2. I think either one will do the job. Check my post a couple of posts back on where to buy either one on-line. If your roof mount can handle the wind load of the CM 4221, it will likely get all of your locals with a little tweaking in the aim (somewhere between the CBS and ABC stations).

Check your antenna cabling to see if it is RG-6 coaxial. If it is RG-59 and you have a long run, consider replacing it with RG-6.

I believe it is that exact antenna from Radio Shack, at least it looks identical and has the same number of elements. I don't need analog because I get them from DirecTV.

Good point about the cabling, I am sure it is probably RG-59.

What I find curious is that my best 2 stations reception-wise right now are CBS and ABC. Those look to be on opposite ends of the spectrum from my address. I am not getting stations "in between" like FOX (2.1), PBS (9.1) and CW (11.1).

Looks like the CM 4221 is big and ugly. I would probably try it as a last resort. I will give the DB2 a shot first. Since you posted about the silver sensor I have been reading up on it. I read a couple of reviews that say people have mounted it outdoors. I may give that a shot....or now do you feel that may be too much of a directional antenna for me as well?

Thanks again for your help.

psm1man

12-14-06, 05:58 PM

SREGENER - thanks for the input. How do your UHF stations come in from 60+ miles with the 91XG?

eberniard

12-15-06, 01:58 PM

Awsome forum, I have learned so much just from browsing the topics.

I just bought an HDTV (w/ASTC) and I am trying a silver sensor with mixed results. The broadcast sources are all in the same area, here is what I got from antennaweb:

KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS 327° 11.1 26
KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 35
WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 32
WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS 327° 11.1 21
KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 44
KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL 325° 11.7 50
KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL 327° 11.0 34
KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL 327° 11.0 16
WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 22

With the silver sensor I get about 5-6 bars signal strength (out of 8 max I think - LN-S3251D). Other than a rooftop antenna, what can I try to improve reception? I had hopes of placing something like a Terk TV-55 above my drop ceiling, but I expect that will be worse than a silver sensor in the open aimed through a window at the source. Is there anything small that would work above a tiled drop ceiling? How about the silver sensor with an amp?

Thanks,
Chip

otaguy

12-15-06, 04:20 PM

I live in Swarthmore PA 19081 39 53 52.8N 75 20 37.3W
Current setup: medium sized Radio Shack UHF Yagi roof mounted, probably about 25' above the ground.
No preamp
CM rotator with remote
About 85' of coax downlead, no splitters
Motorola HDT100 STB

There are a bunch of ATSC stations in Roxborough 11 miles away at 30 degrees that I get easily. The Motorola signal strength meter doesn't have numbers, just three red bars, three yellow bars and three green bars. Most of these stations come in at three yellow bars, sometimes one green bar.

There are two stations (WNJS and WMCN) in Camden 29 miles away at 114 degrees. If I point the antenna between these and Roxborough I can usually get WNJS and the Roxborough stations to come in without moving the antenna (so I guess my Radio Shack Yagi isn't terribly directional). Sometimes I have to move a little to the east to get WMCN.

Now here's my problem. There are two stations in Allentown on the same tower 46 miles away at 354 degrees I'd like to upgrade my setup to be able to get. The easier of the two in theory is WFMZDTon channel 46 broadcasting at 400kW. I'm inside (barely) the blue circle on the FCC service area map at 41 dBu but I can't get my Motorola to even find the station, let alone lock on it. I've tried moving the antenna one degree, try to add the station, STB times out, move another one degree, try again, etc. No luck. The station I'd really like to get is considerably harder than that. WLVTDT is on the same tower as WFMZDT but a little lower down and a lot less power (47.7 kW).

I spoke with an engineer at WLVT and he suggested a preamp to overcome line loss on my 85' of coax but I'm afraid that would overload the STB on the Roxborough stations. I guess I could also go to a larger higher gain antenna which would have to be aimed more precisely than I can currently get away with. Anyone have an opinion as to whether it's possible or practical to get this 47.7 kW station at a distance of 46 miles and if so what would be the best way to go?

Tower Guy

12-15-06, 08:44 PM

I live in Swarthmore PA 19081 39 53 52.8N 75 20 37.3W
Current setup: medium sized Radio Shack UHF Yagi roof mounted, probably about 25' above the ground.
No preamp
CM rotator with remote
About 85' of coax downlead, no splitters
Motorola HDT100 STB

I went to Antennaweb for your location. I entered an imaginary tower 300' tall. The digital stations in Allentown did not show up, only the two analogs. It did pop in with a 1000' tower. It's not likely that a simple setup will receive DTV from Allentown.

The number of stations in Philly that are close to you preclude the use of a preamp, even the highly rated HDP-269, unless you use a channel filter prior to the preamp. WLVT-DT is on channel 62. So a large antenna such as the 91XG, a channel 62 channel filter, and finally the preamp would be your only hope. Even then, I'd be surprised if it worked.

jspENC

12-15-06, 09:45 PM

sabex

12-16-06, 07:43 AM

I am looking for a workable indoor antenna that I can use to get my locals channels in HD. Can anyone make a suggestion? Thanks
antennaweb information:
* yellow - uhf WTVR-DT 6.1 CBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 25
* yellow - uhf WRIC-DT 8.1 ABC PETERSBURG VA 328° 14.4 22
* yellow - uhf WWBT-DT 12.1 NBC RICHMOND VA 348° 11.1 54
* yellow - uhf WCVE-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 42
* green - uhf WCVW-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 44
* red - uhf WUPV-DT 47.1 CW ASHLAND VA 29° 28.3 47
* red - uhf WRLH-DT 35.1 FOX RICHMOND VA 328° 14.4 26
I ended up with a Silver Sensor and managed to get OTA activated on my DVR last night. Now I am struggling to orient the antenna for the best signal, using only the crappy strength meters on the HR20.
Remarkably I can get 12 and 35 pretty well but cannot get 6 and 8 only intermittently.
Is there a method (other than trial and error) that can help me get the best orientation for the antenna, or should I just get an amplifier? The obvious answer would be a signal strength meter but I don't see myself buying one (unless they are way cheaper than I suspect). I do have an electrical multimeter but I suspect that won't do the job.

Any advice appreciated!

afiggatt

12-16-06, 12:42 PM

I ended up with a Silver Sensor and managed to get OTA activated on my DVR last night. Now I am struggling to orient the antenna for the best signal, using only the crappy strength meters on the HR20.
Remarkably I can get 12 and 35 pretty well but cannot get 6 and 8 only intermittently.
Is there a method (other than trial and error) that can help me get the best orientation for the antenna, or should I just get an amplifier? The obvious answer would be a signal strength meter but I don't see myself buying one (unless they are way cheaper than I suspect). I do have an electrical multimeter but I suspect that won't do the job.
How many locations have you tried for the Silver Sensor? Indoor setups will have dead zones for antenna reception of weaker signals. Have you tried placing it at a window in the direction of the broadcast towers? Placed it as high up in the room or house as you can? Location and aim both matter. WRLH-DT Fox 35 is probably at full power while Antennaweb is using the low power STA entry in the FCC database as the power level for the station, hence the "red" code for it.

BTW, yes, a multimeter won't help with measuring signal strength.

If you can't get the stations reliably with a Silver Sensor, then you should return the antenna to the store and step up to a larger antenna for the attic or outdoors such as the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay that I suggested you might have to go with before.

sabex

12-16-06, 03:18 PM

How many locations have you tried for the Silver Sensor? Indoor setups will have dead zones for antenna reception of weaker signals. Have you tried placing it at a window in the direction of the broadcast towers? Placed it as high up in the room or house as you can? Location and aim both matter. WRLH-DT Fox 35 is probably at full power while Antennaweb is using the low power STA entry in the FCC database as the power level for the station, hence the "red" code for it.

BTW, yes, a multimeter won't help with measuring signal strength.

If you can't get the stations reliably with a Silver Sensor, then you should return the antenna to the store and step up to a larger antenna for the attic or outdoors such as the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay that I suggested you might have to go with before.

After much pointing and playing and purchase of a few other variations I am convinced that the Silver Sensor is the best of the bunch but not quite good enough.
I am off to return all the items I purchased. In order to get anything run from the attic I am going to need some more cable run. Since I need at least one more run for my DVR second input, I will get both done at the same time.
Now I just need to find a reputable & cheap installer!

bberkley

12-17-06, 02:46 AM

Installed my CM 4228 today oriented towards Eugene. Took a small TV up on the roof with me, and was pulling VHF channels very strong, and its a UHF antenna! Got everything connected up, went inside and had my TV scan channels, and had my buddy on the roof tune the antenna to get the best signal strength and checked it with the other channels I was interested in getting.

I'm getting 98% signal strength on KMTR, KVAL, and KEPB, and 80-85% on KEZI. I don't get the FOX affiliate at all, but I'm ok with that since I have FOX and KGW coming in on D*.

I am not using a pre amp, or an amp. The mount is a duopod, and I just shoved the mast into the short J tube mast from my old 2LNB mount and plumbed it.

Really, really happy with this combo. I expect with a rotator that I could dial the FOX station in, but this works for me.

texasbrit

12-17-06, 04:40 PM

jeep05

12-17-06, 08:11 PM

afiggatt

12-17-06, 10:44 PM

Guys, i'm in zip 27909 and according to Antennaweb, i need a medium directional with preamp. I recently purchased a Winegard 9095 but am having no luck pulling in locals from Norfolk/Newport News DMA. Most towers are roughly 35-40 miles from here. Directly in front of my residence, there are numerous tall pines, that fall in the direction of the towers. I have not tried a pre-amp at this point and am wondering if this would even help.

I failed to mention, that this is a two-story residence and the antenna was mounted roughly 7ft. about the roof peak.
According to your zip, all of those stations are in the same direction and are currently digitally broadcasting on UHF. I pasted the antennaweb list below with a 100 foot height for the antenna. The Winegard 9095 should be able to pull at least some of those stations in. Do you get any hits at all with the channel scan? Have you tried entering the digital broadcast channel directly? Such as 16 for WHRO-DT PBS 15?

* yellow - uhf WUND-DT 2.1 PBS EDENTON NC 201° 27.8 20
* yellow - uhf WHRO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 348° 38.2 16
* green - uhf WPXV-DT 49.1 i NORFOLK VA 348° 38.2 46
* green - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 348° 38.2 40
* red - uhf WTVZ-DT 33.1 MNT NORFOLK VA 348° 38.2 38
* blue - uhf WVBT-DT 43.1 FOX VIRGINIA BEACH VA 348° 39.1 29
* blue - uhf WAVY-DT 10.1 NBC PORTSMOUTH VA 348° 39.1 31
* violet - uhf WVEC-DT 13.1 ABC HAMPTON VA 352° 38.0 41

jeep05

12-17-06, 10:59 PM

Thanks afiggatt :) Channel scan revealed only one hit and that was 27.1 at 25% signal strength with D* HR20 and also the same on the tv.

newsposter

12-18-06, 08:35 AM

FM Trap gone wild (leviton 25db amp) ? Over summer had some regular troubles receiving some channels, finally decided to flip the trap switch (recalling I had to do that in spring to make things alright) and things were good most of the summer. Then had troubles and decided to flip the switch again. Fixed things pretty good.

past few days, 2 channels were really giving me problems. As a joke i told my wife let me go up and flip the switch. Well it works. But the problem is, it's not 'consistent.' For example, yesterday morning the trap was on, then a bit later I had to turn it off and repeat and rinse :)

Basically, when my channel didnt come in, i flipped the switch to the other position and it makes the station come in. It appears it doesnt really matter that it's on or off but that I moved it. Sounds very strange. Could it be a 'bad' trap. The unit sits on a 25 ft run from the roof, in the attic, then a 75 ft run to my tivos.

afiggatt

12-18-06, 09:38 AM

Thanks afiggatt :) Channel scan revealed only one hit and that was 27.1 at 25% signal strength with D* HR20 and also the same on the tv.
If you are getting that poor detection performance, I'm not sure that a pre-amp would help enough. The primary purpose for a pre-amp to make up for the signal loss from a long cable run. Have you tried moving the antenna aim to the left and to the right? Raise or lower your antenna a couple of feet? With the antenna up there on the roof of a two story house, tweaking the aim is difficult and a bit dangerous. But the antenna may be in a dead spot or need to be aimed off to one side or the other because of the trees. Did you try the antenna out from the ground before putting it up on the roof just to see what it picked up? I would also double check your co-axial RG-6 cable connections to make sure that they are all tight and have no moisture in them.

If you can't improve the reception of your locals at all, you may have to look into getting a UHF antenna with more gain such as the AntennasDirect 91XG combined with a pre-amp.

emikendral

12-18-06, 05:24 PM

I live in the St. Louis area and use a DB4 antenna.
I'm having trouble getting the PBS station to come in. I think
it may be multipath. Should I buy a tripod which would
raise the antenna about 4 feet or go with a more directional antenna with
a rotor.

Tower Guy

12-18-06, 08:54 PM

FM Trap gone wild (leviton 25db amp) ? As a joke i told my wife let me go up and flip the switch. Well it works. But the problem is, it's not 'consistent.' For example, yesterday morning the trap was on, then a bit later I had to turn it off and repeat and rinse :)

I'd guess that the FM trap switch has become flakey. I'd switch it back and forth about 100 times and see if it settles down. Back in the days of rotary tuners they sold a cleaning/lubricating spray that would help, but that's hard to find now.

jeep05

12-18-06, 09:48 PM

If you are getting that poor detection performance, I'm not sure that a pre-amp would help enough. The primary purpose for a pre-amp to make up for the signal loss from a long cable run. Have you tried moving the antenna aim to the left and to the right? Raise or lower your antenna a couple of feet? With the antenna up there on the roof of a two story house, tweaking the aim is difficult and a bit dangerous. But the antenna may be in a dead spot or need to be aimed off to one side or the other because of the trees. Did you try the antenna out from the ground before putting it up on the roof just to see what it picked up? I would also double check your co-axial RG-6 cable connections to make sure that they are all tight and have no moisture in them.

If you can't improve the reception of your locals at all, you may have to look into getting a UHF antenna with more gain such as the AntennasDirect 91XG combined with a pre-amp.

Thanks again afiggatt :)

Moved it left to right a few times but did not try it while on the ground. As you said, being a two story house, it becomes difficult to do allot of moving to different locations. All cables and connections are OK and new.

What other antennas would be suggested, that maybe would be more useful and smaller in size that could be mounted easier, either on the roof or on gable end? I really expected the Winegard to perform much better than it did, and i'm not quite at the point of giving up on it, short of killing myself on the roof. :D

afiggatt

12-19-06, 11:42 AM

Thanks again afiggatt :)

Moved it left to right a few times but did not try it while on the ground. As you said, being a two story house, it becomes difficult to do allot of moving to different locations. All cables and connections are OK and new.

What other antennas would be suggested, that maybe would be more useful and smaller in size that could be mounted easier, either on the roof or on gable end? I really expected the Winegard to perform much better than it did, and i'm not quite at the point of giving up on it, short of killing myself on the roof. :D
You are only 40 miles from the stations. You should be getting some stations with that antenna, even with dense woods. If you have the antenna up on a pole, try lowering it several feet. Or take it down and try it from a second floor window or balcony. Your antenna may be at a bad location or there is something wrong with the setup. Try a scan at night to see if you have any better luck in picking up the local stations. Also, there is nothing in the signal path other than RG-6 cabling? No amps, no splitters?

There is also the possibility that you have a defective ATSC tuner. What are you using? TV tuner or external STB? If you know someone with a STB ATSC tuner you could borrow, you may want to test it to see if you can get the stations with it.

catherwood

12-19-06, 05:57 PM

jeep05

12-19-06, 08:13 PM

You are only 40 miles from the stations. You should be getting some stations with that antenna, even with dense woods. If you have the antenna up on a pole, try lowering it several feet. Or take it down and try it from a second floor window or balcony. Your antenna may be at a bad location or there is something wrong with the setup. Try a scan at night to see if you have any better luck in picking up the local stations. Also, there is nothing in the signal path other than RG-6 cabling? No amps, no splitters?

There is also the possibility that you have a defective ATSC tuner. What are you using? TV tuner or external STB? If you know someone with a STB ATSC tuner you could borrow, you may want to test it to see if you can get the stations with it.

Moved it over to the other side of the roof on the front corner and down 3 feet. Bingo!...........................get em all. :D

Thanks for the help afiggatt

afiggatt

12-19-06, 09:21 PM

Hi everyone, question on either the db8/cm4228 vrs the db4/cm4221. I plan on doing an attic install, I am on a ridge with clear view of both tranmission clusters. One cluster is 16 miles away and one is 35 miles away. The clusters are 55 degrees apart.

My question : is the db8/cm4228 to directional to pick up both clusters...I am hoping to direct it at the farther cluster and still pick up the nearer. I understand that the db4/cm4221 is designed to pick up a much wider spread of signals, but I was aftaid it would not be powerful enough to pick up the 35 mile cluster from the attic.
I have a similar situation. I choose the CM 4221 precisely because of it's combination of good medium range performance and wide pickup pattern. I have Baltimore stations at 43 miles at 61 degrees azimuth and Washington DC stations at 16 miles mostly around 113 degrees in azimuth. That is a 50+ degree spread in azimuth. The CM 4221 is in the attic and aimed at the more distant Baltimore stations. It gets the stations in both cities along with other stations scattered around in azimuth. I live in a townhouse and the direction to the Baltimore stations is obstructed by the top of 3 townhouses down the row. I added a CM 7777 pre-amp to make up for the signal loss of the obstructions and the cable run.

If you have a clear view of both sets of broadcast towers, the CM 4221 should do the job. However, are all of the stations in both cities digitally broadcasting on UHF? The CM 4221 has some pickup for upper VHF, but it probably won't work very well for any upper VHF stations in the 35 mile group. I get good quality pictures for the analog channels WJLA 7 and WUSA 9 in DC with my CM 4221, very noisy pictures for the analog channels WBAL 11 and WJZ 13 at 43 miles.

If you look at the performance charts at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html for the DB4 vs the CM 4221, the Cm 4221 is a bit better according to that website.

eberniard

12-19-06, 11:16 PM

I would like to get a recommendation on mounting an antenna above a drop ceiling. Has anyone tried using the Zenith GEMDTV-1? This would fit pretty well in the given space. I am using a silver sensor right now (on a table) with an amp and I get everything except WUCW which I assume must be due to a weaker transmitter.

My zip code is 55119.

yellow - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS 327° 11.1 26
yellow - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 35
yellow - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 32
yellow - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS 327° 11.1 21
yellow - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 44
yellow - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL 325° 11.7 50
yellow - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL 327° 11.0 34
green - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL 327° 11.0 16
red - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS 325° 11.7 22

Thanks,
Chip

Rammitinski

12-20-06, 12:05 AM

Has anyone tried using the Zenith GEMDTV-1?If you want to try something of a similar design and size that's half the price and will probably give you twice the results (and can be bought and easily returned locally), try the Radio Shack U75R.

Honestly, I don't think I've ever heard of any good reviews of the GEMDTV-1 by people here who have tried it. 'Course, I could be wrong.

holl_ands

12-20-06, 02:39 AM

catherwood

12-20-06, 08:31 AM

I have a similar situation. I choose the CM 4221 precisely because of it's combination of good medium range performance and wide pickup pattern. I have Baltimore stations at 43 miles at 61 degrees azimuth and Washington DC stations at 16 miles mostly around 113 degrees in azimuth. That is a 50+ degree spread in azimuth. The CM 4221 is in the attic and aimed at the more distant Baltimore stations. It gets the stations in both cities along with other stations scattered around in azimuth. I live in a townhouse and the direction to the Baltimore stations is obstructed by the top of 3 townhouses down the row. I added a CM 7777 pre-amp to make up for the signal loss of the obstructions and the cable run.

If you have a clear view of both sets of broadcast towers, the CM 4221 should do the job. However, are all of the stations in both cities digitally broadcasting on UHF? The CM 4221 has some pickup for upper VHF, but it probably won't work very well for any upper VHF stations in the 35 mile group. I get good quality pictures for the analog channels WJLA 7 and WUSA 9 in DC with my CM 4221, very noisy pictures for the analog channels WBAL 11 and WJZ 13 at 43 miles.

If you look at the performance charts at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html for the DB4 vs the CM 4221, the Cm 4221 is a bit better according to that website.

Thanks for the info. Yes all the broadcast towers are digital. I went to that antenna.org site and selected only digital boradcast towers. I was hoping that the CM4228 would get both because it is supposed to do pretty good with VHF also. I did look at the pickup patterns of both, but I wanted to make sure that I was interperting them correctly. Looks like I was, as you apparently came to the same conclusion, and have been quite successful with the 4221. I havent investigated pre-amps. If I do need a signal boost, I may have to go this route. Where does the 7777 reside.. at the antenna or at the reciever? What is the MSRP?
thanks again

afiggatt

12-20-06, 09:22 AM

Thanks for the info. Yes all the broadcast towers are digital. I went to that antenna.org site and selected only digital boradcast towers. I was hoping that the CM4228 would get both because it is supposed to do pretty good with VHF also. I did look at the pickup patterns of both, but I wanted to make sure that I was interperting them correctly. Looks like I was, as you apparently came to the same conclusion, and have been quite successful with the 4221. I havent investigated pre-amps. If I do need a signal boost, I may have to go this route. Where does the 7777 reside.. at the antenna or at the reciever? What is the MSRP?
The CM 7777 pre-amp is placed at the antenna close to the start of the cable run. You run a short coaxial from the antenna to the CM 7777 clamped to the pole. The CM 7777 is powered through the co-axial cable line so the power supply can be placed at the other end of the cable run near a electrical outlet. The CM 7777 has dual inputs for VHF and UHF so you could run a separate VHF antenna to it if you needed to. The CM 7777 is also the most powerful pre-amp CM offers and may be too much gain if one is too close to the broadcast towers. Both Winegard and Channel Master offer a range of pre-amps.

I would suggest you try the antenna first without a pre-amp. If you have a clear view and the cable run is not too long, odds are that you will get good reception w/o a pre-amp. If you get dropouts or have weak stations, then add a pre-amp. Check the prices and specs at the reputable on-line dealers such as solidsignal.com or warrenelectronics.com.

If you provide your zip code, we can verify that all of the stations are broadcasting digitally on UHF and whether they will stay on UHF after the analog shutdown in 2009. In the Washington DC and Baltimore markets for example, channels 7, 9, 11, 13 will be switching their current UHF digital broadcast to their analog channel assignment after the analog shutdown in February, 2009.

otaguy

12-20-06, 10:46 AM

I went to Antennaweb for your location. I entered an imaginary tower 300' tall. The digital stations in Allentown did not show up, only the two analogs. It did pop in with a 1000' tower. It's not likely that a simple setup will receive DTV from Allentown.

The number of stations in Philly that are close to you preclude the use of a preamp, even the highly rated HDP-269, unless you use a channel filter prior to the preamp. WLVT-DT is on channel 62. So a large antenna such as the 91XG, a channel 62 channel filter, and finally the preamp would be your only hope. Even then, I'd be surprised if it worked.

Thanks for your help and thanks for pointing out the Antennaweb capability of putting in a different antenna height (I didn't know it would do that). I think I'm going to give up on the idea of receiving WLVT OTA. I'm 46 miles away and there must be some tall hills in the way and WLVT is low power to begin with.

The information at Antennaweb isn't perfect - with a hypothethical 1000' tower it doesn't even mention two stations which I lock in easily with my actual 30' high antenna - WMCN and WNJS, both broadcasting from the same location in Camden NJ.

otaguy

12-20-06, 11:00 AM

]

OTA guy,
I am also using that Motorola receiver and the bars are not right on it. Basically they are reversed. If you are seeing yellow bars then that is very strong, if the bars go all the way across to the right in green then that is a weak signal. Tune in a channel, go to the manual scan menu and run that. Look at the SNR rate. If it is 25 DB that is as strong as you can get. If it is 15 that is very weak. I would say anything over 16 on that SNR reading is good.

I've always thought that the signal strength meter on the Motorola HDT100 STB is kind of funky and clunky and not very useful. When you try to add stations manually there might be a SNR reading of something like 10 before you start the scan and if the channel is added successfully it might then give a SNR reading of 25 but if it doesn't work it might read 10 and then you rotate the antenna a couple of degrees and it works and gives an SNR of 25.

The other thing it does is occasionally forgets some of the channels or puts in multiple copies of the same channel in the channel list (6.1,6.1,6.1,6.2,6.2,6.2 or similar) at which point the only remedy is to scan all of the channels again which takes a good fifteen minutes. Another owner of this unit reported that it would occasionally change the password for no apparent reason; apparently there's something glitchy in the memory on this box. Mine mostly works so I'm not going to swap it out until prices on HDTV's with integrated tuners come down a little more.

catherwood

12-20-06, 11:14 AM

The CM 7777 pre-amp is placed at the antenna close to the start of the cable run. You run a short coaxial from the antenna to the CM 7777 clamped to the pole. The CM 7777 is powered through the co-axial cable line so the power supply can be placed at the other end of the cable run near a electrical outlet. The CM 7777 has dual inputs for VHF and UHF so you could run a separate VHF antenna to it if you needed to. The CM 7777 is also the most powerful pre-amp CM offers and may be too much gain if one is too close to the broadcast towers. Both Winegard and Channel Master offer a range of pre-amps.

I would suggest you try the antenna first without a pre-amp. If you have a clear view and the cable run is not too long, odds are that you will get good reception w/o a pre-amp. If you get dropouts or have weak stations, then add a pre-amp. Check the prices and specs at the reputable on-line dealers such as solidsignal.com or warrenelectronics.com.

If you provide your zip code, we can verify that all of the stations are broadcasting digitally on UHF and whether they will stay on UHF after the analog shutdown in 2009. In the Washington DC and Baltimore markets for example, channels 7, 9, 11, 13 will be switching their current UHF digital broadcast to their analog channel assignment after the analog shutdown in February, 2009.
Thanks Ill do that. I am interested in which broadcasts may change in 2009, my zip is 35124...but that is misleading from my location high on a ridge I can get broadcasts from the following cities: Birmingham, Al. 16miles, Tuscaloosa, Al. 35 miles, Anniston, Al. 45miles. I dont know the zip codes for these cities. thanks

dmanko

12-20-06, 01:19 PM

I recently purchased the Pioneer 1140 plasma and am trying to make a decision on whether to upgrade my current Dish service to the HD DVR or make a switch to Direct tV. In the meantime, i would like to use OTA signal to enjoy the benefits of HDTV.

I live in West los Angeles. Based on the antennaweb website (AVS would nto let me post the link until I have posted more than 5 messages) I am approx 22 - 23 mile from the tower. Orientation of channels is between 41 to 45. The required antenna type was yellow - small multi directional.

Currently there is a large roof antenna on the house (was there when we purchased the house - I do not have any info on it). I managed to find where this was coming into the house and ran a cable (about 50ft) from the outlet to the current location of the TV. I was able to get a lot of channels but many are pixelated and broken (most importantly for me ABC and CBS). I used the TV menu to evaluate the signal strength - which came in only at 20. I tried going up on the roof to see if I could adjust the positioning (rotate) of the antenna. I was not able to - I did not see any mechanism which would allow one to rotate the antenna. I think if I proceed with this I will have to get a professional into to move it.

My questions are:

1. Is it worth the expense of getting someone in to try make this antenna work optimally or should I just switch out to a "cheap" indoor antennae.

2. could the distance that I am running the cable be effecting the reception

3. In reviewing the forum I have seen reference made to an amplifier. Is this something that might help?

4. long term - once I decide on the Dish vs DirectTV - if I wanted to continue receiving locals channels from OTA broadcast would I be able to record these on my satellite HDDVR. I would not want to have two recording devices - one for satellite and one for OTA.

Any and all advise help is appreciated.

Thanks

afiggatt

12-20-06, 03:48 PM

Thanks Ill do that. I am interested in which broadcasts may change in 2009, my zip is 35124...but that is misleading from my location high on a ridge I can get broadcasts from the following cities: Birmingham, Al. 16miles, Tuscaloosa, Al. 35 miles, Anniston, Al. 45miles. I dont know the zip codes for these cities. thanks
Good thing you posted your zip because you have one local digital broadcasting on VHF 5. The CM 4221 is very unlikely to receive that channel. You can compensate for a random low elevation point for a zip code by entering a height for the antenna under the options link. I used your zip with a height of 600 feet and then sorted by azimuth to make the groupings of stations easier to read. The last number on each row is the actual broadcast channel #.

WPXH-DT 44.1 i GADSDEN AL 26° 43.9 45
WJSU-DT 40.1 ABC ANNISTON AL 48° 29.5 9
WUOA-DT 23 i TUSCALOOSA AL 250° 47.4 23
WCFT-DT 33.1 ABC TUSCALOOSA AL 289° 38.7 5
WDBB-DT 18.1 CW BESSEMER AL 01-07 290° 37.1 18
WABM-DT 68.1 MNT BIRMINGHAM AL 357° 11.8 36
WBIQ-DT 10.1 PBS BIRMINGHAM AL 357° 11.8 53
WIAT-DT 42.1 CBS BIRMINGHAM AL 357° 11.8 30
WTTO-DT 21.1 CW HOMEWOOD AL 357° 11.8 28
WBRC-DT 6.1 FOX BIRMINGHAM AL 359° 12.1 50
WVTM-DT 13.1 NBC BIRMINGHAM AL 0° 12.2 52

You have a WJSU-DT ABC 40 in Anniston broadcasting on VHF 9 and a WCFT-DT ABC 33 in Tuscaloosa broadcasting on lower VHF 5. WDFT-DT 33 will be switching to channel 33 for the digital broadcast after the analog shutdown in February, 2009. WBIQ-DT 10 and WVTM-DT 13 in Birmingham will be switching their digital channel to 10 and 13.

I expect the CM 4221 will get the two upper VHF stations in Birmingham at 16 miles come 2009. It is a poor candidate to get the WJSU ABC station in Anniston on VHF 9 at ~ 45 miles. It is very unlikely to get the WCFT ABC station in Tuscaloosa down at VHF 5. The CM 4221 has some response for upper VHF 7 to 13, none for lower VHF 2 to 6. If you want to receive that station before Feb, 2009 you will need a VHF antenna; it is too far away for rabbit ears to work.

Given the wide spread in azimuth and the VHF ABC stations, your situation is complicated. You could still get the CM 4221 but combine it with a upper VHF antenna such as the Winegard YA6713. A simpler approach would be to try a more conventional VHF/UHF V shaped antenna but a medium range model which is not so directional on the UHF reception. I suggest you go to the Channel Master, Winegard, and AntennasDirect web sites and look at the specs and beam patterns for the various antennas.

Anyone have a suggestion for a broader beam combined VHF/UHF antenna which should be able to pick up both cities?

eberniard

12-21-06, 08:36 AM

Thanks for the link and the feedback. I do have a local retailer (Menards) that stocks the GEMDTV-1, so my plan is to try it out. It is about three times the price of the U-75R but as you pointed out a bit smaller. I first want to see if something will work in the confined space of my drop ceiling. If the performance is no better than the silver sensor, then the next step is to try mounting something in the attic for which the U-75R may be better suited.

pduncan

12-21-06, 12:10 PM

I currently have a CM4228 and 7777 amp. Since one of my HD signals is Ch 9 (WISH out of Indianapolis), I get a lot of breakup, so I purchased a Channel Master 3671, which I haven't hooked up yet.

I am right in the middle between Louisville and Indianapolis. What I was thinking about doing is Pointing the 3671 towards Indianapolis and the 4228 toward Louisville. Have them on the same mast, but about 5' apart.

Now for the questions:
1. What is the best way to combine two antennas like this? Would a splitter/combiner work to join the two. ((The 7777 had two inputs, one for VHF only and one for UHF/Combo. So that won't work. ))

2. Is Five feet enough of a separation. This will be on a 30' tower so I think it will be strong enough to handle the weight.

3. Is this a dumb thing to do?

Pretty much only use this for HD, so ghosting due to two antennas pointing in opposite directions isn't really and issue (I don't think), but I understand it probably would be for Analog.

So what say the experts?

Tower Guy

12-21-06, 08:15 PM

I currently have a CM4228 and 7777 amp. Since one of my HD signals is Ch 9 (WISH out of Indianapolis), I get a lot of breakup, so I purchased a Channel Master 3671, which I haven't hooked up yet.

So what say the experts?

5' spacing is fine.

If you have a rotator you could mount the 3671 on one tower leg and aimed at Indy and use the 7777 VHF input or a channel 9 jointenna to add it to the rotating UHF antenna. Leave the rotator aimed in the most used position and turn it just to get the other market.

You could try to add the two antennas in a splitter. If there is little ghosting it might work. The loss of the splitter will make it harder to get the distant market. If it works, that's ideal, but trail and error is the only way to know for sure.

Some use an A/B switch to switch between antennas. If you have more than one HD tuner you could connect one antenna to one box and the other to the HDTV set itself.

cpcat

12-21-06, 10:20 PM

I currently have a CM4228 and 7777 amp. Since one of my HD signals is Ch 9 (WISH out of Indianapolis), I get a lot of breakup, so I purchased a Channel Master 3671, which I haven't hooked up yet.

I am right in the middle between Louisville and Indianapolis. What I was thinking about doing is Pointing the 3671 towards Indianapolis and the 4228 toward Louisville. Have them on the same mast, but about 5' apart.

Now for the questions:
1. What is the best way to combine two antennas like this? Would a splitter/combiner work to join the two. ((The 7777 had two inputs, one for VHF only and one for UHF/Combo. So that won't work. ))

2. Is Five feet enough of a separation. This will be on a 30' tower so I think it will be strong enough to handle the weight.

3. Is this a dumb thing to do??

Use the uhf input for the 4228 and vhf input for the 3671 on the CM7777 and you should be good to go. Point the antennas independently as the 7777 will diplex the signal for you. You will have VHF-only from the 3671 and UHF-only from the 4228. Be sure the internal switch on the 7777 is set to "separate".

Rammitinski

12-22-06, 01:19 AM

To begin with, the GEMDTV-1 might actually fit cuz it's a lot smaller than R-S U75R.
I don't think enough people have used them--much less conducted a comparison test....
It looks like it's optimized for upper UHF channels.....same as Silver Sensor...

A picture showing BOTH antennas was posted on 27Feb2005
and scroll to bottom for a picture of a triple GEMDTV-1 installation in the attic:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/4364/2780.html?1111472397Yeah, I wasn't picturing them accurately in my head. The reflector on the Zenith is smaller.

I think a couple of guys on our local thread tried it and didn't have too much luck with it. But I suppose it's pretty similar in performance. I can say that I often get stations over 60 miles away with my U75R, though.

TiVoComBlankMan

12-23-06, 05:36 PM

To receive OTA I installed a Channel Master 4228 in my attic. I added a Radio Shack two piece amplifier, half mounted by the antenna, half by the TV, and all in all was getting a strong enough signal for my HR10-250.

I recently purchased a Samsung 1080p DLP HL-S5687W and since it has an HD tuner I connected the antenna to it also. I was getting a decent signal but was seeing some minor pixelation and audio dropouts every few minutes on 2 OTA channels.

So embarking on a quest to correct that I looked for an amplifier/splitter combination and didn't really find too many choices that had a decent gain on all 4 outputs. I was trying to locate a Channel Master 3044 locally but the only place I found one wanted $12 over MSRP.

So I called this Skywalker Communications place that Channel Master lists as a distributor. They didn't have one so I let the guy talk me into a $10 Skywalker 25db Amp and a 4-way splitter. Well adding that Amp inline did not improve anything, in fact I got no reception on any channel on any receiver.

Turns out I was probably overdriving the signal. So just for grins I took the RS unit out of the config thinking that won't work because it also supplies power to the antenna mounted amp and it will be dead so there will be no signal. Well, to my surprise there was a signal and not too bad of one either.

So that prompted me to then bypass the amp mounted by the antenna and just use the Skywalker amp by the TV. That worked pretty good. Even better it turns out then the RS amp. My signal strength increased on just about every channel. Ok, the RS amp is out the Skywalker amp is in.

But I was still getting those occasional drop outs on one channel. So I decided to try re-aiming the antenna. I have a map indicating the direction of all the transmitter antennas and I had my antenna pointed in that direction then fine tuned it for signal strength.

Well it appears that by rotating the antenna about 15 degrees I was able to increase the signal strength on just about every channel. Now half of them are in the 90's, with the remainder in the mid 80's to low 90's. Quite an improvement. But I still get those occasional dropouts on one OTA channel even though it's signal strength is in the 88-90 range (out of 100).

So what I've have now is a Channel Master 4228 in the attic with about a 75 ft run to the Skywalker 25db adjustable gsin amplifier, the output of which connects to s Spaun 5x8 MultiSwitch. I then use splitters by the receivers to split the outputs from the Spaun into the DTV receiver component and the OTA component and connect them accordingly.

Davinleeds

12-23-06, 05:59 PM

I would try direct feed, no splitters etc. just as an experiment to see if dropouts stop-you're getting close.

Trickie Dickie

12-25-06, 10:21 AM

afiggatt

12-25-06, 05:17 PM

I Have Just Recieved A 30" Sony Widescreen Hdtv With A Phillips Hdtv Model Mant510 Antenna. I Can Only Recieve Abc Hdtv,nothing Else Comes In.i Live In Warner Robins,ga.the Search Shows That I Should Have Many Channels To Choose From. Do You Have Any Sugestions That Might Help?
Your zip code will make it easier for people to look up your antennaweb.org results and your local stations. The Philips Mant 510 is an indoor antenna and only suitable for closer to broadcast tower situations. The first steps are to position the antenna in a spot with a clear view in the direction of the broadcast towers, move to several different locations if you are not getting all the stations, and tweak the aim of the flat plate for the digital UHF stations and the rabbit ears for any DIGITAL VHF stations you may have.

thisisfun

12-25-06, 06:00 PM

Hi all,

A bit confused about OTA reception. I am in the Detroit
area but I am not sure if this is a particularly location
dependent question (unless other Detroit-area people are
seeing what I am seeing???)

(Last wk), I hooked up a Samsung tuner (SIR T351) to an
antenna and pointed the antenna towards the cluster of
Detroit stations. I am using a Radio Shack amp about 3'
from the antenna hookup. After monkeying around w/ the
antenna position, I now get all the stations in that cluster
(7 HD and a handful of SD's too). There is a "signal
strength" meter on the Samsung and every station gets either
8 or 9 bars (of 10). And every station comes in crystal
clear except ABC, which has periods of block-like artifacts
when the signal strength either stays at 8/9, or just drops
to zero before recovering.

Is anyone else seeing problems like this w/ the Detroit ABC
station? Or could my hardware have some bizarre,
station-dependent problem ?

Thx!

dsm1212

12-25-06, 09:13 PM

I've got a channelmaster that I've had for about 16 years. I've got a radio shack preamp on the mast. I'm not sure what model either of these are unfortunately, but the antenna is about 10 feet long. Looks like a crossfire in the newer models. I have directv with an HD Tivo, but I also have a couple of sets just hooked to the antenna so it needs to do more than just high UHF.

I can pick up 2,4,5,7, 44 very clearly in HD out of boston, but Fox 25 in HD is very sporadic. Most of the times there is not enough signal to get a picture. This hasn't bothered me so much but I've got this large front projection screen now and the 2007 super bowl will be on Fox. What do you recommend I do to try to pull in Fox 25 in HD?

I've actually got an unused new rotor that's been sitting here for a couple of years in my basement. I got directv and never bothered to put it up. But there is no other fox in the area so I don't think that will help.

New antenna? New amplifier? Both? The easiest thing for me to do would be to pick up a new amplifier and try that first, but frankly I have a feeling the Rat Shack model isn't all that bad. It sure makes a big difference when it is not in use.

-steve

dsm1212

12-25-06, 09:15 PM

Also, my zip is 01462 and I think I'm about 30 miles west of the HD transmitters in Boston. Antennaweb for my address doesn't even list the stations I can get quite clearly!

afiggatt

12-25-06, 10:58 PM

There is a "signal strength" meter on the Samsung and every station gets either 8 or 9 bars (of 10). And every station comes in crystal clear except ABC, which has periods of block-like artifacts when the signal strength either stays at 8/9, or just drops to zero before recovering.

Is anyone else seeing problems like this w/ the Detroit ABC station? Or could my hardware have some bizarre,station-dependent problem ?
You could be having multi-path problems with the WXYZ-DT ABC 7 (41) station. Or it could be signal fluctuation because of moving trees & leaves. Looking at a antennaweb list for Detroit, the broadcast towers, with the exception of combined CBS, PBS, MNT tower are at different locations. If you questions about the station, go to the Detroit thread in the Local Reception forum. First step is to try different aims for the antenna. Then if that doesn't work, tell us what antenna you have, indoor or outdoor setup, and post your zip code so we can evaluate whether you have the right antenna for your situation.

Also the Samsung SIR-T351 is several generations old. The new Samsung DTB-H260F is getting a lot of positive reports for locking in stations that were frequently not solid with older STB ATSC tuners. But a new $180 ATSC STB is the expensive route. Try tweaking the antenna setup first.

afiggatt

12-25-06, 11:27 PM

Also, my zip is 01462 and I think I'm about 30 miles west of the HD transmitters in Boston. Antennaweb for my address doesn't even list the stations I can get quite clearly!
Check with the Boston OTA thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=28454) for info on the Boston WFXT-DT Fox station. The FCC database (accessible through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WFXT) for the digital signal shows a licensed power of only 78 KW. There is an application for a full 1000 KW, but I recall seeing posts before about the Fox station in Boston being at not very high power.

Antennaweb.org is very conservative on digital reception. Try entering your address, but this time click on the options link and enter a height of 100 or 200 feet or even higher. See what digital stations now show up on their list. As for the Radio Shack pre-amp, the Channel Master and Winegard pre-amps are regarded as the better brands.

Tower Guy

12-26-06, 09:59 AM

This hasn't bothered me so much but I've got this large front projection screen now and the 2007 super bowl will be on Fox. What do you recommend I do to try to pull in Fox 25 in HD?
-steve

The superbowl will be on CBS this year.

thisisfun

12-26-06, 11:44 AM

Hi,

Thanks VERY much for the reply! I have posted a similar
question over at the Detroit thread.

Multipath eh? So (I am new to this so plz forgive newbie
HDTV questions!) that would be coherent interference
between the xmitter-antenna signal and the
xmitter-SUV_in_the_street-antenna signal? If so, kind of
weird that it does not affect the other channels, unless
the extra xmitter-street-antenna distance just happens to
be a diabolical multiple of pi/4 wavelengths at the ABC
frequency but not the other channel frequencies?

I am using an antenna that was left in my garage by the
previous owner of my place. He left it up on the studs in
the top part of the garage so I just turned it towards the
Detroit broadcast cluster (I am zip 48105, so I tried to
get it about 65 degrees E (CW) of N -- I hope I interpreted
the antennaweb information correctly). It is a Channel
Master (maybe 10' long, w/ some rust so prob. pretty old!).
I am running it inside to my basement -- prob. about 50'
of coax before it gets to the T351. As it turns out, I
borrowed the T351 from a friend of mine at work just to
see if I could receive HD over the air, so now that I am
hooked :) I need to go out and get a receiver pretty
quickly anyway to avoid abusing my friend's kindness. I
can easily pick up a DTB-H260F, prob. this afternoon
(if not sold out at local BestBuy/Circuit City).

Thanks again, I can see why everyone is so excited about
HD, what an amazing picture ....

ama299

12-27-06, 09:22 AM

dsm1212

12-27-06, 10:24 AM

>> The superbowl will be on CBS this year.

Hey you're right Tower Guy. I misread the superbowl site and was looking at the wrong year.

afiggatt - Thanks for the pointers. Maybe Fox will be boosting their signal in the future. It sounds like I should do the easy thing first and upgrade the amplifier.

thanks,

steve

texasbrit

12-27-06, 12:27 PM

Hello

I would like some of your opinions on which antenna would be best for me. Here is the info from antennaweb.org. I contacted solidsignal and they recommend the Ch 6371 I think that might be more then what I would need plus that antenna is huge thats my problem with it. I hoping the ch4228 will work. I have a little B&W tv out in the garage that has just a stick antenna and I'm able to pick up 3 channels with some snow. I'm looking to get HD channels

blue - vhf WCCO 4 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 4
blue - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 32
blue - uhf WFTC 29 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 29
blue - vhf KTCA 2 PBS ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.5 2
blue - uhf KTCI 17 PBS ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.6 17
blue - uhf KPXM 41 i ST. CLOUD MN 257° 61.0 41
blue - vhf KMSP 9 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 9
blue - uhf WUCW 23 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 23
blue - vhf KARE 11 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 11
blue - uhf KSTC 45 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 45
blue - vhf KSTP 5 ABC ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.8 5
blue - uhf WHWC 28 PBS MENOMONIE WI 140° 47.2 28
violet - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 221° 47.8 50
violet - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.8 35
violet - uhf W24CL 24 PBS GRANTSBURG WI 0° 18.2 24
violet - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 26
violet - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 221° 47.5 21

Thanks

So if you just want digital channels, antennaweb shows KSTP-DT ABC, KARE-DT NBC, KMSP_DT FOX, and WCCO-DT CBS. They are all on UHF today. But KMSP will be going back to channel 9 and KARE back to channel 11 when analog goes away in 2009. Your two PBS stations in Minneapolis don't show up but they may still be in the antennaweb database as low-power.

The recommendation for the 3671 is not a bad one if you want to receive the analog VHF stations between now and 2009. For the UHF digitals either the CM4228 or the Antennas Direct 91XG would be a better choice, mounted outside as high as you can, coupled with a CM7777 preamp. Both these antennas are UHF but with some performance on VHF-hi as well, but in 2009 when analog goes away you will probably need to add a VHF-hi antenna to get KARE and KMSP, maybe you can worry about that when it happens. There are a couple of VHF-hi antennas around and you may see more of these as 2009 approaches.

ama299

12-27-06, 03:53 PM

So if you just want digital channels, antennaweb shows KSTP-DT ABC, KARE-DT NBC, KMSP_DT FOX, and WCCO-DT CBS. They are all on UHF today. But KMSP will be going back to channel 9 and KARE back to channel 11 when analog goes away in 2009. Your two PBS stations in Minneapolis don't show up but they may still be in the antennaweb database as low-power.

The recommendation for the 3671 is not a bad one if you want to receive the analog VHF stations between now and 2009. For the UHF digitals either the CM4228 or the Antennas Direct 91XG would be a better choice, mounted outside as high as you can, coupled with a CM7777 preamp. Both these antennas are UHF but with some performance on VHF-hi as well, but in 2009 when analog goes away you will probably need to add a VHF-hi antenna to get KARE and KMSP, maybe you can worry about that when it happens. There are a couple of VHF-hi antennas around and you may see more of these as 2009 approaches.

Thanks for all the info. The analog VHF stations are not that important to me so I will try either the 91XG or the CM4228.

smackman1

12-29-06, 04:08 PM

I am installing a channel master 4228. All of my signals come from different directions. My question is should I install a pre-amp? One of my towers is 15 miles away the other is 35 miles away in opposite direction 15 degrees compared to 165 degrees compared to due north. I have a old small yagi on a 20' pole right now that will bring in the station 35 miles away and also pick up the other station on the backside with no pre-amp. The 35 mile station is at 57 signal strength the other at 72. I realize and hope the 4228 will get better gain than this old yagi I have straped up there that I actually dismantled from a 20 year old uhf-vhf antenna. The yagi is sorta pointed upwards also instead of being straight. The 57 signal strength will try to pixil sometimes. I have a channel master 3041 DSB pre- amp that I paid 30 dollars for at Lowes. Will a pre-amp cause me problems? I am hoping to pick up the strong station from the backside of 4228; I am doing this now with this yagi. I also might be able to pick up shreveport Louisiana with 4228 but will need pre-amp because I am 70 miles away. Will pre-amp cause problems when some stations are real close but needed for far away stations? If I install pre-amp do you suggest using 300 ohm twin lead from antenna to pre-amp? This pre-amp has a 300 ohm input. I have heard that matching transformers will cause a 2 db loss which would give me a 4 db loss before I ever hit the pre-amp. I have some good300 ohm twin lead. If I can pick up Shreveport I will install rotor later.
Thanks
Smackman

Neil L

12-29-06, 08:25 PM

I am installing a channel master 4228. All of my signals come from different directions. My question is should I install a pre-amp? Try it first without the pre-amp. If you are satisfied leave it that way.Will a pre-amp cause me problems? It could. Many pre-amps overload easily in the presence of strong signals.I am hoping to pick up the strong station from the backside of 4228; I am doing this now with this yagi. Might work. Try it.I also might be able to pick up shreveport Louisiana with 4228 but will need pre-amp because I am 70 miles away. Will pre-amp cause problems when some stations are real close but needed for far away stations? If I install pre-amp do you suggest using 300 ohm twin lead from antenna to pre-amp? This pre-amp has a 300 ohm input. I have heard that matching transformers will cause a 2 db loss which would give me a 4 db loss before I ever hit the pre-amp. I have some good300 ohm twin lead. If I can pick up Shreveport I will install rotor later.
Thanks
SmackmanI use a 4228 with a preamp to pick up several stations from 70 to 75 miles away. But, I don't get 24/7 reception from any of them. I have two other stations at 90 degrees from where the antenna is pointed that are only 25 miles away and I get good reception from them all the time.

Davinleeds

12-29-06, 09:09 PM

ewitte

12-30-06, 09:11 AM

Completely flat terrain and very few buildings (there is a 2 store house next door). Information on anntenaweb. Most stations are UHF between 84-88 degrees and 10-12 miles. The majority list the color code as "yellow." Will the DB4 in the attic perform well? Most lower frequncy vhf stations are analog and have a UHF digital showing the exact same content so this antenna will pick up nearly everything listed at antennaweb save 3-4 out of about 37 stations. Actually pretty much all of the vhf stations are analog and have a digital version on UHF. Except for one 50 miles away in Conroe I can live without. And channel 8 (PBS) on frequency 9 thats 11.7 miles away. I can live without that and/or watch it on sat if needed.

I'd say directional at 86 degrees would be good but I don't know how that would work in the attic. I really don't want to pay someone to mount it on the roof.

BTW attic is pretty thin because its a newer house but there is a radiant barrier.

jspENC

12-30-06, 09:54 AM

I get 60mile plus channels from the backside of my 4228. But in direction of hills, only the 91xg will zero in. I can leave the 4228 in one position and get 95% of my channels. Site specific requires use of both. Over the hills, the 4228 drops out every 20 seconds but the 91xg will give me a 60 to 90% reception. Sometimes you need both to tame the multipath beast.

Is this with the screens on or off? I have stations coming from all directions, but the ones I'm mainly interested in come from the S. southwest, 60 miles and the north
at 25 miles and 41 miles. One of those at 41 miles is VHF on channel 10. One person
in my market gets the VHF at over 90% with the 4228. So if I was to get this antenna, would I be able to point it southward and still receive the stations to the north with it reliably? Right now I have two antennas joined together pointing in
these directions, but am missing one NBC channel to the south at 55 miles.

Thanks for the advice.

Davinleeds

12-30-06, 10:56 AM

Screens on. Use CM pre amp 7777. Alot depends on topography and if you're joining antenna, be sure to do it correctly, as it's a science. A good rotor is handy.

Tower Guy

12-30-06, 12:01 PM

Is this with the screens on or off? I have stations coming from all directions, but the ones I'm mainly interested in come from the S. southwest, 60 miles and the north
at 25 miles and 41 miles. One of those at 41 miles is VHF on channel 10. One person
in my market gets the VHF at over 90% with the 4228. So if I was to get this antenna, would I be able to point it southward and still receive the stations to the north with it reliably? Right now I have two antennas joined together pointing in
these directions, but am missing one NBC channel to the south at 55 miles.

Thanks for the advice.

Have you considered the use of an additional antenna and a channel 44 Jointenna for WECT-DT?

jspENC

12-30-06, 03:43 PM

I join two antennas now with a splitter in reverse and get all Wilmington channels strong with the exception of WECT. It works in the evenings and mornings occasionally. All other channels (both WIlmington and Greenville) come in perfectly the way I have it set up now. I use a CM pre- amp after the splitter. I was thinking the 4228 might be enough to get WECT also- I just
don't want to lose the others, and would like to use just one antenna if possible.

chas4430

12-31-06, 08:08 PM

mhoover

12-31-06, 10:35 PM

Hello. Need some advice on antenna selection, if pre-amp will be needed, and if my distance is too far to even attempt an attic install. Here are the specs from antennaweb:

blue - uhf KTBO 14 TBN OKLAHOMA CITY OK 292° 36.9 14
blue - uhf KOCM 46 IND NORMAN OK 294° 37.9 46
blue - uhf KOKH 25 FOX OKLAHOMA CITY OK 289° 36.4 25
blue - vhf KFOR 4 NBC OKLAHOMA CITY OK 291° 37.0 4
* blue - uhf KFOR-DT 4.1 NBC OKLAHOMA CITY OK 294° 37.9 27
blue - vhf KETA 13 PBS OKLAHOMA CITY OK 289° 36.8 13
* blue - uhf KETA-DT 13.1 PBS OKLAHOMA CITY OK 294° 37.9 32
blue - uhf KTUZ 30 TEL SHAWNEE OK 256° 25.0 30
blue - uhf KAUT 43 MNT OKLAHOMA CITY OK 293° 37.4 43
blue - uhf KSBI 52 IND OKLAHOMA CITY OK 271° 33.4 52
blue - uhf KOCB 34 CW OKLAHOMA CITY OK 289° 36.4 34
* blue - uhf KOCB-DT 34.1 CW OKLAHOMA CITY OK 290° 36.5 33
blue - vhf KOCO 5 ABC OKLAHOMA CITY OK 290° 36.8 5
* blue - vhf KOCO-DT 5.1 ABC OKLAHOMA CITY OK 290° 36.8 7
* blue - uhf KOKH-DT 25.1 FOX OKLAHOMA CITY OK 289° 36.4 24

Distance between 33-38 miles on flat land, no obstructions. Compass orientation within 5 degrees to all but one independent channel which is 23 degrees off main stations. ABC is the only vhf station. Would like to not break the bank if possible but make sure I have enough antenna to do it right the first time (within reason). Thanks for the help.

afiggatt

01-01-07, 12:17 AM

Hello. Need some advice on antenna selection, if pre-amp will be needed, and if my distance is too far to even attempt an attic install. Here are the specs from antennaweb:
Distance between 33-38 miles on flat land, no obstructions. Compass orientation within 5 degrees to all but one independent channel which is 23 degrees off main stations. ABC is the only vhf station. Would like to not break the bank if possible but make sure I have enough antenna to do it right the first time (within reason). Thanks for the help.
If you don't have obstructions in the attic such as metal ducts or metal liners, 33 to 38 miles should be doable for an attic antenna. I get stations at 43+ miles with a CM 4221 in my townhouse attic and I have local obstructions of the tops of other townhouses to contend with.

You have KOCO-DT broadcasting on VHF 7 with a confusing set of entries in the FCC database for it's power level (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KOCO and click on FCC database link). You will need to select an antenna which work for both UHF and upper VHF. The CM 4228 may work, but it rather large for an attic. With all the stations in the same direction, a more conventional VHF/UHF antenna is probably what you should look at. Antennas from Winegard and Channel Master for starters.

afiggatt

01-01-07, 12:21 AM

Wis Dells Need Staitions About 60 Miles Away, Have A 40 Ft Tower With Rotor And An 1985 Antenna. Out In The Woods I Think The Trees Are The Problem. Do I Need A New Antenna And A Amplifier? What Are My Options And About How Much Should I Spend???
If you provide your zip code and some details on the current antenna - model, VHF, UHF? - we can respond with some more helpful suggestions. If the 1985 antenna has a UHF antenna and is in good condition, maybe you should try it to see what digital stations you can get with it if you have a TV or STB with a ATSC tuner.

puddnhead

01-01-07, 02:01 PM

Hi, just got my first HDTV set yesterday & am trying to upgrade my surrounding setup. One of the first things I'm tackling is a new antenna system, and would appreciate any advice. Because we don't get cable or dish, I'd be relying on it for all our viewing except DVD, so I am willing to do what it takes, within what I am able due to my circumstances (see below).

One of the things I'm trying to find is some kind of comprehensive comparison review of HDTV antennas. I've googled & looked through a few of the 107+ pages of this thread (!) but haven't found anything yet. Any pointers for that genral advice/info appreciated!

More specifically, I discovered antennaweb & inputed my location, & obtained it's recommendations; I have attached the map it generated to this post. A couple comments on this:

It got my location slightly wrong; I put the actual house location on as a red square if it matters
based upon this, I think I have an exceptionally clear horizon to the towers. I live just off a golf course, and the directions on the map go right through a large gap between two houses that immediately adjoin the course, then there are no other buildings for at least 600 yards.
My house is a 2 story and the roof/attic is higher than any trees along those lines between me and the other end of the golf course
However there is a water tower about 1600 yards away, along the general direction of the line to the towers. It is the only structure of any significantly greater height in those general directions for a couple miles at least.
The terrain in my part of the country is very flat.

As you can see on the map, I have two sets of towers I want to pull in, but all in a driection within six compass degrees, so I'm hoping whatever works for one works for all. Here is the tabular output from antennaweb recommendation to accompany map (I wish i could put it in an html table fot make it easier to read but don't see that I can in this forum software):
DTV Antenna Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Compass Orientation Miles From Frequency Assignment
* yellow - uhf WBAY-DT 2.1 ABC GREEN BAY WI 49° 40.7 23
* yellow - uhf WFRV-DT 5.1 CBS GREEN BAY WI 55° 38.0 39
* green - uhf WIWB-DT 14.1 CW SURING WI 55° 38.0 21
* green - uhf WLUK-DT 11.1 FOX GREEN BAY WI 55° 38.0 51
* red - uhf WPNE-DT 38.1 PBS GREEN BAY WI 49° 40.7 42
* red - uhf WGBA-DT 26.1 NBC GREEN BAY WI 53° 39.1 41
* violet - uhf WACY-DT 32.1 MNT APPLETON WI 53° 39.1 59

note: the violet/32.1 channel last on the list is one that I don't watch often & would not be that bothered if it did not come in perfectly

Station list to accompany map:

A: 2.1, 26.1, 32.1, 38.1
B: 5.1, 11.1, 14.1
First a request for confirmation/clarification: it surprises me that some channels are listed as uhf; I was under the impression that some would be vhf, according to channel number (2-13 vs 14+)? Does this mean I only need a uhf capable antenna, I don't need to worry about vhf reception???

Finally, my personal circumstances: This is a 2-story condo townhouse that we rent, so I may have some limitations regarding roof/eaves mount -- I can talk to landlord if necessary, but if it's possible to make this work with an indoor/attic setup that would be preferred. The room the set is in has a cathedral ceiling, all the way up to the roof (no attic in this part of buidling), so I think mounting to the ceiling of the room somehow (if the antenna is not too big/ugly) would be equivalent to an attic mount? This room is in the back of the place, i.e. facing the direction of the towers I want to pick up, the signal would only have to travel through the roof (no attic in htis part of the house).

So far from preliminary investigation I am wondering if the Philips MANT950 might work for my circumstances. There is an intruiging review at epinions that seems to match my circumstances, and it looks unobtrustive enought for a cathedral ceiling mount (thinking near the hightest point, so at second story ceiling, effectively). But then again, it's just an epinions review, nothing normalized. Here is the complete text (since as a new user, the forum software won't let me link to it):
Digital channels with no recurring fees... from 40 miles away!
Dec 22 '06

Author's Product Rating
Product Rating: 5.0

Pros
Excellent reception, multiple mounting options, inconspicuous.

Cons
Somewhat expensive and really directional

The Bottom Line
If you can get over the air HD and need a medium range antenna, you can't go wrong with the MANT950.

Full Review
I bought the Philips MANT950 as part of my maiden voyage into the world of home theater. I didn't want to pay the extra $20 per month that it cost to get HD programming from Dish Network just to watch CSI in high definition. I bought the MANT950 at Circuit City because they'd let me bring it back if I couldn't receive any channels. I didn't have high hopes because according to antennaweb I live 36 - 40 miles from the HD sources in my area.

First Impressions
Well at first I thought I was going to have to assemble the MANT950, but Philips has cleverly designed the antenna so that the two "arms" fold down effectively cutting the length in half for transportation. I opened the box and unfolded the arms and viola, the antenna is ready to connect to your TV or receiver. There is a well written manual that details how to get the best reception along with the hardware that you'd need to mount the antenna to the side of the house or a pole. For ease of assembly, it doesn't get any better than this.

Aesthetically, the MANT950 isn't gaudy looking, it's designed to be inconspicuously mounted under the eaves. It comes in an unobtrusive gray finish that would match a DSS satellite dish well and it can be painted to match the house to camouflage it even more.

Mounting
The Philips MANT950 is a medium sized, directional HDTV antenna. That means that it must be aimed at the digital source for the best reception. When I got my TV, I connected the antenna with it in the living room and didn't get any digital channels, but I was receiving analog pretty well.

I didn't really want to put the antenna outside, because of the direction I'd have to point it, eave mounting was out of the question and I didn't want to mount it on a pole. I mounted my MANT950 in my attic. Note, that this isn't ideal as it cuts down on your reception. I figured that if I didn't get anything I'd try it outside, but to my surprise I was able to dial the antenna in so that I receive all the digital broadcast in my area except one. That one being a few miles east of the rest so since it isn't CBS I don't care.

I mounted the MANT950 as high as I could to the rafters in my attic. I had to rig a bracket to get it at the correct angle for the best reception, but the mounting process was relatively painless. It would have been very easy if I'd had someone watching the digital signal strength while I moved the antenna.

You'll need somewhere to plug in the power for the antenna. It's provided via a small power supply that connects to the coaxial cable from the antenna, I had a receptacle in the attic so no big deal for me.

Reception
Like I said earlier, I live a long way from the broadcast sources, add to that the fact that the antenna is inside my attic and you have a recipe for failure. I'm pleased to report that I have well over 60% signal on every channel and over 80% on a couple (CBS is the one I dialed in on). My TV displays crystal clear picture as long as the signal strength stays above 30%. Only ABC doesn't display, and that's because it's 30 miles east of the others and thus I'd have to turn my antenna to get it. It is the closest of the bunch and if I turn the antenna in that direction I get an 88% signal.

Signal strength remains constant in all weather. Even in heavy rain I've maintained excellent reception.

Durability
I haven't had it long enough to comment, but the only part that could fail is the amplifier. I don't think I'll have to worry about durability with the antenna protected from the elements. It looks like water could probably get into the case, but the internals could be sealed for all I know. The plastic casing will probably fade in the sun, but that's speculation.

The Verdict
Antennas either work or they don't right? The Philips MANT950 works. Even though I live a long way off in some hilly terrain I'm able to get High Definition programming for what 5 months would have cost me from Dish Network.

If antennaweb.orgsays you need a "medium amplified directional antenna", give the MANT950 a shot, you'll be glad you did.

Recommended:
Yes

Any advice or comments on my thinking would be greatly appreciated!

mhoover

01-01-07, 03:14 PM

If you don't have obstructions in the attic such as metal ducts or metal liners, 33 to 38 miles should be doable for an attic antenna. I get stations at 43+ miles with a CM 4221 in my townhouse attic and I have local obstructions of the tops of other townhouses to contend with.

You have KOCO-DT broadcasting on VHF 7 with a confusing set of entries in the FCC database for it's power level (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KOCO and click on FCC database link). You will need to select an antenna which work for both UHF and upper VHF. The CM 4228 may work, but it rather large for an attic. With all the stations in the same direction, a more conventional VHF/UHF antenna is probably what you should look at. Antennas from Winegard and Channel Master for starters.

Thanks for the reply. AntennaWeb says I need a medium directional with pre-amp. What is the difference and pro's/con's of getting an amped medium directional vs. a large directional w/o a pre-amp. Or am I barking up the wrong tree? ABC KOCO-DT on vhf 7 broadcasts at a 100 kw and will be most likely my toughest challenge. Knowing this, does this change any antenna strategy or will it come down to trial by fire. Appreciate any help.

holl_ands

01-02-07, 12:12 AM

1. For Antenna Comparisons, see fol. avsforum thread re antennas,
rotators, preamps, etc. (which includes below highlights):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5711296#post5711296

2. Esp. be sure to click on the three "Heavy Metal" and ATech Fabrication
long distance on-air comparison tests:
http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm.

3. Links to Bob Chase's on-air outdoor vs indoor comparisons for eight antennas,
incl. an attic placement investigation:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6245872&#post6245872
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5399471#post5399471
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5410432#post5410432

4. Link to NEC computer simulation studies:
www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNA/comparing.html

5. Kerry Cozad's antenna on-air test range results for a few selected antennas:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/4364/3476.html?1126051755

6. Attached is my updated spread sheet, summarizing/plotting manufacturer spec sheet info,
as well as some of Kerry Cozad's measurements....

boylan13

01-02-07, 12:36 AM

I'm using a pretty inexpensive roof-mount Radio Shack UHF/VHF antenna to tune in both NTSC and ATSC channels. The tuner is a Sony DHG-HDD500 HD PVR.

I recently developed a problem where I'm not reliably tuning in the PBS digital channels in New York City (13.1, 13.2, 13.3) but the rest of the ATSC channels are coming in fine (NBC, CBS, ABC Fox, etc.). I understand that the PBS channels are lower power than the rest, but a roof antenna 1.5 miles from the transmitter on the ESB (direct line of sight) should be able to tune it in.

I have a standard 300ohm-75ohm transformer connected to the antenna, RG6 cable running down maybe 75 feet to a splitter (in the house) where I'm splitting the signal once (1-to-2). I find that if I disconnect one of the 300 ohm leads at the antenna, the signal improves (visible on analog channels), though not enough to lock into the PBS digital channels. Could this be caused by some kind of grounding problem on the antenna itself or the mast? Or is it more likely to be a cable or connector shield fault?

I initially had two feeds hooked up directly to the antenna, each running to different parts of the house, but recently disconnected the second feed to try to beef up the main feed. The frustrating thing is that the second feed which is now disconnected from the antenna entirely (just a dangling 75ohm-300 ohm transformer on the roof) is actually tuning in the PBS channels fine without an antenna but with a channel Master amplifier! I tried this with the other feed but it was not strong enough to pick up the PBS digital feed from the ATSC receiver in our living room.

Is it likely to be a problem with the antenna itself or the cabling? I have a section of the RG6 cable plastered right into the wall so I'm hoping it's not the cable. I'm tempted to just buy a better UHF-only antenna and see if this works better, but would appreciate any suggestions from the antenna gurus.

Thanks,

-Chris

Larry Kenney

01-02-07, 02:39 AM

It's most likely a multipath problem, Chris. Try turning your antenna a few degrees one way or the other. It can make the difference between great signal and no signal if multipath is part of the mix.

Good luck!

Larry

kenglish

01-02-07, 08:15 AM

Also, try an FM Trap on the antenna line. At that distance, there will likely be overload from any FM stations nearby. That can cause noise and distortion byproducts that mask the lower-powered signals.

cpcat

01-02-07, 10:41 AM

I've really been itching to do a quad of DAT 75's. I have a Lindsay 2 way combiner so called up Lindsay to order a 4 way model. Lindsay UHF/VHF combiners (http://www.lindsayelec.com/antenna/commercial.catv/v-u-combiners.html)

Guess what? They no longer manufacture them. Called fellow AVS'er MaxHD to see if he could help and although he didn't have a source for the 4WCU, he did have a couple Televes ref. 5006's on hand which are basically preamp/uhf combiners all in one. Televes ref. 5006 (http://www.televes.com/hojastecnicas/103758.pdf) I figured maybe I could use them with a power passing splitter to do the quad. I ordered the DAT 75's from cpc with the usual 7:00 a.m phone call due to the time difference.:)

Guess what? The DAT75's now have redesigned larger reflectors (presumably for added gain in the lower uhf). Needless to say, I was a little dissappointed as I wanted 4 identical antennas. I decided to try anyway though. In the meantime, I called/emailed Lindsay again (acting more desperate this time) and an extremely helpful person there found a 4WCU for me :D . Through all of this in the last month or so, I've been trying various combinations for this setup and thought I'd share my results here.

Equipment:
4 semi-identical Televes DAT 75's
Research Comm. 9253 HDTV LNA with ps
Televes ref. 5006 x2 with ps x2
Lindsay 2WCU and 4WCU uhf combiners
Lindsay LS2A vhf combiner
power passing wide band uhf splitters of various brands

Initially, using the ref 5006's through a power-passing splitter didn't work very well. The performance overall was less than that of just a horizontal stack with the 2WCU combiner into the RC 9253 LNA. I suppose the phasing just wasn't perfect enough through the splitter. For novices out there, phasing is critical when combining antennas for added gain. The signals need to be identical as possible and in-phase which means everything needs to be symmetrical (i.e. equal signal paths and cable lengths) up to the point of combination.

Using the 2WCU as the power-passing splitter worked better. I'd say about equal in performance to the initial horizontal stack. Incidentally, this configuration isn't actually a quad stack. It's better termed a stack-of-stacks. No matter what the combination, it seemed that a vertical stack of horizontal stacks outperformed a horizontal stack of vertical stacks. Not sure why that is but it wasn't even close.

Using regular resistive splitters, whether 3 dual or one 4-way didn't work at all for me. Others seem to have some success using these, but I can't say they work at all.

Next up, the true quad (actually an H-quad) using the 4WCU into both the ref 5006 (using only a single input) and the RC 9253. The ref 5006 held it's own BTW against the 9253. Not sure if I could tell any major differences. The quad, however, was overall somewhat dissappointing. I tried various stacking distances and it seemed 36 inches square worked the best. There were some channels for which it seemed to perform excellent, but others were poor. I think it may be that it's difficult to phase a true quad properly for a wide band setup and this would work better for narrow-band or single channel setups. I also couldn't really get the antennas much closer than 36 inches square (due to the megareflector on the new DAT75) so it may be that the phasing would have improved at closer distances. I did figure out a way to create an identical 4-antenna array BTW. The reflectors are interchangeable so I tried it with one large and one small on each antenna. It worked, but overall it seemed to worka little better in the pictured configuration below. Also, you'll notice I've added screening to the reflectors. This improves F/B ratio and helps me with co-channel interference I have between an analog and digital 34. Anyhow, that's a whole other story.

So, needless to say, at this point I was quite bummed with the quad stack performance. I then tried using the 2WCU and the 4WCU (used as a 2-way) to combine the stacks through the ref 5006. For some reason, this just wouldn't work. The 2WCU and 4WCU are exactly the same size/length and the only internal difference that I could see is that the 4WCU has 4 f-sockets soldered inside the end of the combiner while the 2WCU only has 2. Obviously, there must be more difference than that as they just wouldn't phase at all. Maybe someone who knows how stripline combiners work can answer this?

So, almost in desperation (again), I decided to try to use the 2WCU and the LS2A to combine each stack. The stacks were then combined through the ref 5006's dual uhf inputs. I compensated for the added length of the 2WCU by adding corresponding length to the cable coming off the LS2A (actually, I tried multiple lengths and settled on 13 inches as the best). Bingo! It worked. Performance now surpassed that of the original horizontal stack throughout the uhf band. It's difficult to quantify exactly, but I'd say my performance now is overall similar from channels 14-38 to my Triax Unix 100 Band A stack. This is excellent performance in this range for a wide-band uhf setup. For channels 39 and up, I'd say better by a small margin over the original DAT 75 stack.

Obviously, the next logical step would be to replace the LS2A with another 2WCU. However, I'm not sure when one will turn up and my WAF doing all this is currently on empty. :) :)

I'll keep you posted.

Charles

pyedog

01-02-07, 11:49 AM

6. Attached is my updated spread sheet, summarizing/plotting manufacturer spec sheet info,
as well as some of Kerry Cozad's measurements....

Thanks for providing this!

I have limited space in my attic for a 3rd UHF only antenna that I'm trying to use to pick up a single station. My goal is to mount it above my 4228 pointing in the opposite direction - thus It can't be very tall or long.

From looking at your chart I have a couple questions:

1) The DB8 is listed at 14.0 dBd while the CM 4228 is at 11.9 - I have a hard time beliving there is that much difference between two VERY similar antennas - do 4 separate reflectors really help?

2) The Blonder Tongue BTY-UHF-BB would seem to be the pick for a compact UHF antenna at 10.2 dBd and only 24" - but is it really this good? Obviously the price is beyond reason, but I can't imagine why other manufacturers wouldn't build a similar antenna if they can get this much gain from this small of a size - there are many far larger antennas with less gain.

Right now the 43XG would seem to be the best for the size (at 39" it is as large as I can fit) - but I'm a bit dubious about the numbers given the abnormally high DB8 numbers.

Any other suggestions for a compact UHF attic antenna?

Thanks!

AntAltMike

01-02-07, 12:38 PM

The gain of the Blonder Tongue UHF BB is unremarkable. Blonder Tongue reference its gain figures to "isotropic" rather than to "tuned dipole", so you would have to subtract 2.2 from it to compare it to most other publiched gain specs. You can buy something for $30 that is a foot or two longer with the same gain.

I have installed over half a dozen of them. They are designed for durability rather than for extraordinary performance. You would be wasting your money using one in an attic unless you are incredibly cramped. I only use them on highrise buildings

The likelihood of a dB of improvement in published gain figures will discernibly improve your reception is slim, at best.

ctdish

01-02-07, 12:46 PM

cpcat,
I use four CM 4248 stacked 2 0ver 2 with about 40 inch spacing. They are connected to a Lindsa 4WCU and Research Comm preamp. The preamp provided a noticable improvement over the AP 4700 it replaced. I measured the loss of a few of the small 2 and 4 port splitter/combiners by going through two so I had a single port at each end. This showed about a 5dB loss indicating a 2.5 dB loss for each one.
Hopefully you used four exactly equal lengths of cable to connect the antennas to the combiner.
With the pairs of mismatched antennas you might try putting similar antennas above each other. The phase mismatch will show up as a response peak slightly off the center of the expected pointing direction. If it is not too large reaiming the rotator will find the peak with little loss of total gain.
John

I've really been itching to do a quad of DAT 75's. I have a Lindsay 2 way combiner so called up Lindsay to order a 4 way model. Lindsay UHF/VHF combiners (http://www.lindsayelec.com/antenna/commercial.catv/v-u-combiners.html)

Guess what? The DAT75's now have redesigned larger reflectors (presumably for added gain in the lower uhf).
Equipment:
4 semi-identical Televes DAT 75's
Research Comm. 9253 HDTV LNA with ps
Televes ref. 5006 x2 with ps x2
Lindsay 2WCU and 4WCU uhf combiners
Lindsay LS2A vhf combiner
power passing wide band uhf splitters of various brands

Initially, using the ref 5006's through a power-passing splitter didn't work very well. The performance overall was less than that of just a horizontal stack with the 2WCU combiner into the RC 9253 LNA. I suppose the phasing just wasn't perfect enough through the splitter.
Using regular resistive splitters, whether 3 dual or one 4-way didn't work at all for me. Others seem to have some success using these, but I can't say they work at all.

Charles

cpcat

01-02-07, 02:13 PM

cpcat,
I use four CM 4248 stacked 2 0ver 2 with about 40 inch spacing. They are connected to a Lindsa 4WCU and Research Comm preamp. The preamp provided a noticable improvement over the AP 4700 it replaced. I measured the loss of a few of the small 2 and 4 port splitter/combiners by going through two so I had a single port at each end. This showed about a 5dB loss indicating a 2.5 dB loss for each one.
Hopefully you used four exactly equal lengths of cable to connect the antennas to the combiner.
With the pairs of mismatched antennas you might try putting similar antennas above each other. The phase mismatch will show up as a response peak slightly off the center of the expected pointing direction. If it is not too large reaiming the rotator will find the peak with little loss of total gain.
John

I did make them all identical by interchanging the reflectors i.e. each antenna had a small and a large reflector. In fact, this is how I did the majority of the testing with the H-quad. The phase seemed correct on some channels but not on others and this seemed to vary among channels with spacing. It's possible I suppose that I have a defective 4WCU.

I'd be interested in how your performance would compare if you did a stack of stacks instead of a quad.

The Research Comm. 9253, 9252, as well as the Televes ref. 5006 and Sitco PA24 all outperform the CM 7777 for uhf in my experience. I've not used the Winegard AP 4700 so can't comment on that one.

eberniard

01-03-07, 01:53 PM

Yeah, I wasn't picturing them accurately in my head. The reflector on the Zenith is smaller.

I think a couple of guys on our local thread tried it and didn't have too much luck with it. But I suppose it's pretty similar in performance. I can say that I often get stations over 60 miles away with my U75R, though.

Just to follow up on this again, I did buy the GEMDTV-1 and tried it out though I eventually returned it. In my side by side informal comparison I found that the GEMDTV was comparable to the silver sensor and the U75R was superior to both. The size of the GEMDTV was compact enough to mount in the drop ceiling, but the multipath was significant enough to compromise performance. In the end I went with the U75R in the attic which is perfect (until 2009 anyway when I will need VHF).

Thanks for the comments.

puddnhead

01-04-07, 01:39 AM

Thanks for the help holl_ands. I happened to be at a local Menards looking for something else when I saw their antenna selection & that they carried the Philips MANT950 antenna for $80, so I figured I'd pickit up & see what it'd do. Almost as an afterthought I picked up the MANT510 indoor setup amplified antenna for $22 too, figured I'd just give it a shot, who knows, I could return it later.

I got the 950 ouit & just held it up inside, near the roof, & was happy to see that that it got all the channels in my list quite. But while I was at it I got out the MANT510 too and ... wow. All the channels I wanted came in quite clearly except one, just from this little indoor unit sitting on top of my entertainment center, without any real fiddling. Been using it a couple days with no complaints. As a reminder here is my antennaweb output again:

DTV Antenna Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Compass Orientation Miles From Frequency Assignment
* yellow - uhf WBAY-DT 2.1 ABC GREEN BAY WI 49° 40.7 23
* yellow - uhf WFRV-DT 5.1 CBS GREEN BAY WI 55° 38.0 39
* green - uhf WIWB-DT 14.1 CW SURING WI 55° 38.0 21
* green - uhf WLUK-DT 11.1 FOX GREEN BAY WI 55° 38.0 51
* red - uhf WPNE-DT 38.1 PBS GREEN BAY WI 49° 40.7 42
* red - uhf WGBA-DT 26.1 NBC GREEN BAY WI 53° 39.1 41
* violet - uhf WACY-DT 32.1 MNT APPLETON WI 53° 39.1 59

Station list to accompany map:

A: 2.1, 26.1, 32.1, 38.1
B: 5.1, 11.1, 14.1Odd that I got 32.1 (violet) quite strongly, but I could only get 14.1 (green) intermittently & only with careful alignment of MANT950 (not at all with MANT510). All the rest were good reception with either. I don't care much about the 14.1 CW channel, so I'm planning to go the way of simplicity and low cost & keep the MANT510

mga56grg

01-04-07, 09:13 AM

I have a cable line (which broadcasts 20 or so unscrambled channels, which i don't pay for) leading upto my apartment and an HD antenna. unfortunately i have brick walls and can only run the existing coax through the wall. I tried to mix the lines together with a combiner/mixer (from radio shack). this didn't work for i thought it would (i only recieve the cable broadcast and the HD signal says no/weak). when i unplug the cable line from the combiner (and run it just with the HD antanna in) the HD signal to the TV is fine. this suggests to me that the cable line is overpowering the antenna line. is this right?
any suggestions? do i actually have to have two lines coming into the house?
Thank you

texasbrit

01-04-07, 10:16 AM

shoptangerine

01-04-07, 02:57 PM

Hello all, first post here...

I live in Murrieta california, it is like 65 miles from the Los Angeles signals being shot of Mt Wilson. According to antennaweb, I do not see any DT channels for my address-well there is one in san bernadino, pbsdt.

I put a channelmaster 4228 on roof just to try before I went and bought a preamp, mast, etc....all I get is snowy old school channels and that one pbsDT channel. My house is right behind a slope, and above that guy is another slope, then 3 miles away is a little mountain range.

I have heard of a couple people getting signal in my town, but I think my area might be the worst? Is there any hope to get OTA HD here? or do I have to get it through my directv (barf)

Thanks in advance

Craig in Murrieta

afiggatt

01-04-07, 04:12 PM

I live in Murrieta california, it is like 65 miles from the Los Angeles signals being shot of Mt Wilson. According to antennaweb, I do not see any DT channels for my address-well there is one in san bernadino, pbsdt.

I put a channelmaster 4228 on roof just to try before I went and bought a preamp, mast, etc....all I get is snowy old school channels and that one pbsDT channel. My house is right behind a slope, and above that guy is another slope, then 3 miles away is a little mountain range.
First go to antennaweb.org and at the address page, click on the options link and enter an antenna height of 200 or 300 feet or even higher; then select digital stations only. You may not get all those digital stations & the color codes are not that meaningful (not that they are all that accurate to begin with), but this should give you a list of where and what directions the digital stations are.

If you have a slope behind the house, tilt the center aim of the CM 4428 upwards towards the ridge line if you can. The CM 4228 is rather directional and that may pick up the signals refracting across the top of the hill. Also raise or lower the antenna or just move the antenna a few feet if you can, just in case you put it at a local dead spot. Try these steps before getting a pre-amp, although a pre-amp is not likely to make that much difference if you can't get the digital towers on the top of Mt. Wilson at all.

Also, what ATSC tuner are you using? Some tuners are better than others at locking on to marginal signals.

shoptangerine

01-04-07, 07:44 PM

First go to antennaweb and at the address page, click on the options link and enter an antenna height of 200 or 300 feet or even higher; then select digital stations only. You may not get all those digital stations & the color codes are not that meaningful (not that they are all that accurate to begin with), but this should give you a list of where and what directions the digital stations are.

If you have a slope behind the house, tilt the center aim of the CM 4428 upwards towards the ridge line if you can. The CM 4228 is rather directional and that may pick up the signals refracting across the top of the hill. Also raise or lower the antenna or just move the antenna a few feet if you can, just in case you put it at a local dead spot. Try these steps before getting a pre-amp, although a pre-amp is not likely to make that much difference if you can't get the digital towers on the top of Mt. Wilson at all.

Also, what ATSC tuner are you using? Some tuners are better than others at locking on to marginal signals.

I had to goto 200' in the air till I got one network, CBS, 300' finally got me all the networks, ktladt, fox, etc....

Looks like I am screwed for OTA eh? as I am not putting a 300' mast up ;)
Thanks

holl_ands

01-04-07, 09:41 PM

Thanks for providing this!

I have limited space in my attic for a 3rd UHF only antenna that I'm trying to use to pick up a single station. My goal is to mount it above my 4228 pointing in the opposite direction - thus It can't be very tall or long.

From looking at your chart I have a couple questions:

1) The DB8 is listed at 14.0 dBd while the CM 4228 is at 11.9 - I have a hard time beliving there is that much difference between two VERY similar antennas - do 4 separate reflectors really help?

2) The Blonder Tongue BTY-UHF-BB would seem to be the pick for a compact UHF antenna at 10.2 dBd and only 24" - but is it really this good? Obviously the price is beyond reason, but I can't imagine why other manufacturers wouldn't build a similar antenna if they can get this much gain from this small of a size - there are many far larger antennas with less gain.

Right now the 43XG would seem to be the best for the size (at 39" it is as large as I can fit) - but I'm a bit dubious about the numbers given the abnormally high DB8 numbers.

Any other suggestions for a compact UHF attic antenna?

Thanks!
Although the DB-8, CM4228 and WG PR8800 appear to be very similar 8-Bay antennas,
the feed structures and reflector screens are electrically quite different.

It is frequently difficult to determine whether a manufacturer is specifying "typical" or "minimum" specs,
i.e. whether it's an average/median value or a guaranteed for 90+ percent of shipped units.
Or perhaps was only measured on the carefully tweaked prototype model....
And sometimes it's difficult to determine whether they used dBd (relative to a dipole)
or the 2.15 dB "inflated" dBi (relative to isotropic) gain measurement units.

CM and Winegard provide very detailed spec sheets with gain, beamwidth and Front/Back Ratio for several UHF channels.

However, Antennas Direct simply claims "15.8 dB gain" for the DB-8, where it is unclear whether this is
in dBd or dBi (2.15 dB higher) units....and whether this is an AVERAGE across the UHF band or (much more likely),
the MAXIMUM gain for the BEST channel....
I determined the "14.0 dB" value for average UHF gain, by converting
15.8 dbi to 13.6 dBd and gave then the benefit of the doubt by simply rounding up to guessitimate the average UHF gain....
I would guess that this is actually MAX vice AVERAGE, so it's probably still overinflated by 2-3 dB...

===================================
I rechecked the "Data UHF NEC + Measured" spread sheet page which contains NEC Simulations results for average UHF gain.
The NEC Sim data points have been updated and provided via downloadable "ants.xls" file since I "eyeballed" data off the charts.
My "eyeballed" CH14 gain numbers were off by quite a bit (too small) with only minor tweaks for other channels.
Updated averages are below.

CM4228, 14.6 dBd measured, 11.3 dBd NEC Sim vs 11.9 dBd "spec"
PR8800, 13.2 dBd measured, 10.0 dBd NEC Sim vs 11.6 dBd "spec"
AD DB-8, unk dBd measured, 11.9 dBd NEC Sim vs 15.8 dB? "spec"
Surely, you can you see which "spec" claim doesn't fit....

Also, if you check www.hdtvprimer/ANTENNAS/comparing.html,
you'll see that the author did not include the (presumably 1-2 dB) loss
in the DB-8's combiner in the NEC model.....

So all of the 8-Bay antennas are "close", with the edge given to the CM4228....
Kerry Cozad measured 1.4 dB MORE average gain across the UHF band for the CM4228 than the PR8800....
which is consistent with NEC Sim.
And actual on-the-air test results generally show that all three 8-Bay antennas are very good,
with the CM4228 having a reportedly small performance (and price) advantage....

BTW: Due to receiving both the direct path and the "ground bounce" signal, Kerry Cozad's model range test data can be
2-3 dB higher than "isotropic", i.e. "free space" gain cited in NEC simulation results and (presumably) also spec sheets.

========================================
Fortunately, Antennas Direct isn't the only source of data on the 43XG:
http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=AP00815
http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/moduleDisplayPopup.jsp?moduleId=cpc/253268.xml
Probably dBi units (subtract 2.15 to find dBd).

http://www.ceda-antenna.com/index.htm
http://www.funke.nl/
Hmmm, CEDA website seems to be down and Funke is rebuilding theirs...
Guess I'll just attach the data sheet.....
Based on comparison to "simple" antennas, I've determined that Funke uses the inflated dBi units rather than dBd.
And, as is usual with non-U.S. antenna manufacturers, you have to be careful to read the frequencies (in MHz)
and might have to convert their channel numbers into U.S. channel numbers.

afiggatt

01-04-07, 11:33 PM

I had to goto 200' in the air till I got one network, CBS, 300' finally got me all the networks, ktladt, fox, etc....

Looks like I am screwed for OTA eh? as I am not putting a 300' mast up ;)
Thanks
Don't use the antenna height at avsforum as gospel. I have to enter 150' at antennaweb for my address to get a list of digital stations that is close to what I get with a CM 4221 in my attic.

But if you have hills blocking the line of sight, that is a problem. Before you give up, try out different aims & locations for the antenna such as I suggested. If there is a high rise building behind you, you could even aim the antenna at the building to see if you might be able to pick up reflected signals off of the building.

jhb50

01-05-07, 02:24 AM

I am 95 miles from the LA towers but in a direct line through a mountain pass between 2 10,000 foot peaks. On that same line is a strong DT station 20 miles away.

I also have 3 local stations at 90 degrees, that I get with a Radio Shack HDTV Antenna (Shaped like a DBS dish) which claims 6dB gain and has a 10dB preamp that I will connect with an A-B switch or reverse splitter which ever works..

I had assumed and been advised for the LA stations to get either the 4228 or XG91 along with the 269 12dB Urban Preamp rather than the 7777 because of the 20 mile station and mount the whole thing on the roof.

Over New Years, in order to get the bowl games and Rose Parade on KTLA, I took the RS antenna and stuck it on my deck at floor level behind glass doors pointed at LA, and too my surprise, I get all the LA channels at 65-75% on my sets Signal Strength bar but I do have to shift the antenna sideways 1-2 feet to get the signal on some of them. I tried moving the antenna to other locations on and well off the deck and the roof overhead but never got as good a signal.

Does it make sense that I just happen to have a 4 foot hot spot just at the front side of my house, 4 feet from the ground, and just at the front of a deck which is covered with a 12'x16' aluminum awning? Everything I have read says this should not be. It does have a clear line across a golf course and open desert though with no houses or trees in the way.

So now I am thinking of using a 4228 or its half sized version and standing it just outside the fixed glass door, with the hope that its larger span will gather all the hot spot signals and eliminate the need to shift the antenna 2-3 feet. Assuming a 12 dB gain and a 12 dB amp and 4 db loss for 50' of RG6, that's 20 dB rather than the 10-12 I have now.

Based on this I'm now thinking of dropping the on the roof approach. What would you do if you were me?

mga56grg

01-05-07, 09:23 AM

Cable and antenna signals are in the same frequency band so there is no way to combine them. You need separate cables for each of them.

thanks - Do you think it would work if i split the line once inside my apartment, and ran one into the cable input and another into the antenna input? or am i completely out of luck?

texasbrit

01-05-07, 11:46 AM

thanks - Do you think it would work if i split the line once inside my apartment, and ran one into the cable input and another into the antenna input? or am i completely out of luck?
No, you have to carry the antenna and the cable signals on separate cables all the way.

jtbell

01-05-07, 12:58 PM

[Antennaweb] got my location slightly wrong; I put the actual house location on as a red square if it matters

You can re-center the map by clicking on the desired location. This also re-computes and updates your channel listings. It makes a noticeable difference for me because the default location for my address is a couple hundred yards away and down a slight hill from where my house is actually located.

swandog

01-05-07, 01:57 PM

Hi,
I have an antenna in my attic and there is a run of RG6 quad from it down to the basement which connects into a Channel Plus Model DA-8200HHR distribution unit...and from there I go to 4-5 locations in the house...will this type of setup affect a HD signal differently from analog? My current plan is to use this setup with HD...I am planning on adding a CM 4221 antenna in the attic and then using a CM 538 joiner to combine the two antenna's (the current antenna gets better VHF signals than UHF)..Does this sound reasonable or am I waisting my time...btw the wife will not allow an antenna outside...and I'm not getting rid of her :)...

thanks
Doug

TVSaurus

01-05-07, 11:57 PM

I'm currently using a 25' mast for my 4228 do you think its possible to get a better signal if I go higher up on a 50' mast for the weak signals I'm receiving?

holl_ands

01-06-07, 04:13 AM

StanMan76

01-06-07, 12:18 PM

Tower Guy

01-06-07, 03:07 PM

Based on this I'm now thinking of dropping the on the roof approach. What would you do if you were me?

I think that you are on the right track. Antennas interact with the ground such that it is possible to gain up to 6 db if the ground slopes at the perfect angle and the antenna is placed at the optimum height.

A basic explaination is here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html

Gamedev123

01-06-07, 05:35 PM

Picked up a DB2 a few days ago to replace my Terk Hdtvi. Although it seems to be giving me much better reception on all channels, I've lost my favorite HD channels (PBS). No matter what direction I point it in, I still can't get any PBS HDTV channels.

Thoughts?

Also, I'm in an apartment building and thinking about securing the antenna to the fire escape outside ... of course, in a totally non-obvious manner. ;-)

Any thoughts on this as well?

Bobbarry

01-06-07, 06:38 PM

I was going to post this in the Providence, RI thread but noticed this thread after writing what is below. I did not read all 180 pages but I have a rough idea of where I am headed. Zip code 02748.

My objective is to find an antenna to fit my situation and objectives. Some of the facts are as follows:

At most I can mount an antenna 45' above sea level. Fifty yards from my house to the North and North West are trees which exceed 45'.

I can mount the antenna outside. The cable length needed will be 75'. There is no electrical outlet near the antenna.

My house is located 29 miles from and at a bearing of 335 degrees to the transmitting cluster for Providence (NBC, FOX, CBS, PBS) and New Bedford (ABC). The frequencies for these stations are 51, 54, 13, 36 and 49 respectively.

My house is located 55 miles from and at a bearing of 359 degrees to the transmitting cluster for Boston (ABC, CBS, PBS). The frequencies for these stations are 20, 30 and 19 respectively.

I have used three store bot antennas with the following results:

1. UHF, 13" X 4", outside mount, multi-directional, 18 dB, at 45' above sea level receives ABC-49, CBS-13, PBS-36.

2. UHF, 6" X 6", outside mount, multi-directional, 35 dB, at 30' above sea level receives FOX-54, CBS-13.

3. UHF, 11 dB, inside mount, 13" directional, at 35' above sea level receives NBC-51, ABC-49.

Please note all antennas receive CW-22 (16 miles) and other non HDTV stations.

I would like to receive the Boston stations, in particular PBS but this may not be possible.

I know the antenna signal will have to be amplified and that the quality of my reception depends on the strength of the received signal not the amplification.

I believe the type of antenna I need is UHF based on the signal frequencies (not the station numbers).

I am thinking of using an multi-directional antenna. Perhaps a directional antenna (Yagi style) would be better if I wish to receive Boston stations. There is only 24 degrees between the Providence and Boston transmitters and as such a rotor may not be needed (?).

I was looking at the DB4 antenna on antennasdirect. Has anyone tried building their own antenna, I think there are a couple of oven racks I could use.

I would prefer to mount the antenna on the side of my house rather than the roof, which would preclude rotation of a long antenna. The side of my house where I would install the antenna points directly toward the Boston transmitters and I could angle it slightly away from the house to point at the Providence transmitters.

I have been using store bot antennas because they are easy to return to local merchants. Odds are I will end up ordering an antenna so I want to purchase the right one the first time.

Any thoughts you have concerning antenna type, placement strategy, amplifiers, where to buy would be appreciated.

afiggatt

01-06-07, 07:06 PM

I need help picking a new antenna. I am at zip code 54726. All my channels are within 40 miles except for 1 channel CBS which is about 60 miles away. Right now all my digital channels broadcast on UHF but come 2009 two channels are switching to VHF. I was considering the 4228 before the two channels are switching. I know the 4228 picks up VHF good but the 1 channel switching is the CBS channel that is going to be on 8.1. The other channel will be on 13.1 and I am sure I would be able to pick it up with that antenna. Will the 4228 pick up a VHF channel from 60 miles away? What other antennas would be a good choice?
The CM 4228 8 Bay has ok gain for upper VHF, but I suspect getting a VHF 8 station at 60 miles will be iffy. Depends on your terrain, surrounding trees, and what power the station - WKBT-DT CBS 8 correct? - will go to when they switch in 2009. Looking at your antennaweb results, you have stations scattered around in azimuth, so a rotator will be needed with the very directional 4228. My suggestion is that you get either the 4228 or 91XG, but put up a sturdy enough mount with enough extra space on the pole so you can add a upper VHF antenna in 2009 if it turns out that you need it. Winegard has several dedicated upper VHF 7 to 13 antennas which you can find on their website.

afiggatt

01-06-07, 07:09 PM

Picked up a DB2 a few days ago to replace my Terk Hdtvi. Although it seems to be giving me much better reception on all channels, I've lost my favorite HD channels (PBS). No matter what direction I point it in, I still can't get any PBS HDTV channels.
What channel is the PBS station digitally broadcasting on? For us to be much help, we need your zip code or the PBS station call letters. Just not enough information here.

Jedi5

01-07-07, 05:39 PM

Hello everyone.
Long time lurker first time poster here.

Well, I've finally decided that I want to look into a HDTV antenna.
Problem is, I really don't know what I'm looking for.
I do know that if I can get away with it, I would prefer to buy an indoor antenna.
There are no buildings or towers in my immediate area.
The channels I am looking to watch are all about 35 miles away.

Right now I'm not sure if I need an antenna or antenna with an amplifier.

Can someone please tell me what other information they would need in order to help me out?

thanks to all

afiggatt

01-07-07, 09:03 PM

I do know that if I can get away with it, I would prefer to buy an indoor antenna.
There are no buildings or towers in my immediate area.
The channels I am looking to watch are all about 35 miles away.

Right now I'm not sure if I need an antenna or antenna with an amplifier.

Can someone please tell me what other information they would need in order to help me out?
For starters, we could use your zip code and some information about whether you live in a house or condo/apartment, roof mount or attic mount possible, live on a hill or higher elevation. 35 miles is a challenge for an indoor antenna.

Jedi5

01-08-07, 12:27 AM

AntAltMike

01-08-07, 12:31 AM

Sorry.

60087 zip code, Chicago area. Northern Chicago between IL and WI.
This is for a 2 story home where both attic and roof install are very possible.
The reason I was looking into an indoor antenna was for the less hassle.
I recommend that you go to the Chicago thread and learn the bad news about channel 2/3 over there.

Tower Guy

01-08-07, 02:03 PM

I recommend that you go to the Chicago thread and learn the bad news about channel 2/3 over there.

Indoor antennas won't work well.

afiggatt

01-08-07, 11:41 PM

60087 zip code, Chicago area. Northern Chicago between IL and WI.
This is for a 2 story home where both attic and roof install are very possible.
The reason I was looking into an indoor antenna was for the less hassle.
Plugging your zip and a antenna height of 200' into antennaweb, I get the following list of closer Chicago stations:

* yellow - uhf WTTW-DT 11.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 47
* yellow - uhf WPWR-DT 50.1 MNT GARY IN 165° 38.1 51
* yellow - uhf WLS-DT 7.1 ABC CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 52
* yellow - uhf WMAQ-DT 5.1 NBC CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 29
* yellow - uhf WGN-DT 9.1 CW CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 19
* yellow - uhf WSNS-DT 44.1 TEL CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 45
* yellow - uhf WXFT-DT 60.1 TFA AURORA IL 165° 38.1 59
* yellow - uhf WFLD-DT 32.1 FOX CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 31
* yellow - uhf WCIU-DT 26.1 IND CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 27
* yellow - uhf WCPX-DT 38.1 i CHICAGO IL 165° 38.1 43
* green - vhf WBBM-DT 2.1 CBS CHICAGO IL 163° 37.0 3
* green - uhf WGBO-DT 66.1 UNI JOLIET IL 163° 37.0 53
* green - uhf WYCC-DT 20.1 PBS CHICAGO IL 163° 37.0 21
(You have Milwaukee stations to the north at 49 miles in the opposite direction; some of these may come in the backlobe of the antenna aimed at Chicago).

The key station is WBBM-DT CBS 2 with the digital signal at VHF 3. All of the others are currently at UHF. The good news is that in 2009, WBBM-DT will switch it's digital channel to VHF 11. If you want to get that station - and I gather it is a major problem station for OTA reception in the Chicago area - you will need a VHF/UHF antenna setup. An attic mount can certainly work depending on the construction and material used in the attic.

There are a number of approaches you could consider. One is to get a UHF only antenna such as the Channel Master 4228 8 Bay or CM 4221 4 Bay and combine that with a VHF only antenna. Or get a conventional VHF/UHF antenna from Winegard or Channel Master. If you go with an attic mount, don't fix the antenna mount down until you have found a spot with good receptions. Lots of dead zones in attic. But a roof mount would be better.

smackman1

01-09-07, 10:29 PM

I installed this 4228 today in place of a 4 foot yagi and I gained 15% in signal strength! Myu analog pictures on upper VHF are good to excellent! I am sold on this baby. If you need UHF reception and Upper VHF this is your antenna.
Smackman

sha04

01-10-07, 04:09 PM

Fester13

01-11-07, 09:29 AM

I was shocked and now ecstatic about the abilities of the Phillips MANT510 amplified antenna. I tried a $10 basic set of rabbit ears from Radio Shack and was able to get a couple digital channels. I live about 20-25 miles outside of Philadelphia. After I returned the "ears", I did a little research. Antennaweb was the best place to start and then I searched these forums and Googled OTA antennas. I settled on a stepped list of indoor antennas from a price standpoint and the next choice was the Phillips. When I pointed it towards the signals I found from antennaweb site, I instantly picked up 8 digital channels. This was with it sitting on a stereo speaker next to my TV. When I moved the antenna on top of a hutch, the digital world opened up to me. Mind you, I live in a 100 year old twin house on the side that doesn't face the signals. I aimed this antenna towards my neighbors house and BAM!, I got 25 analog (which I have since deleted) and 15 digital feeds. I am a D*TV customer and I didn't want to pay for their HD package and I'm extremely satisfied with this antenna. Does the signal occasionally drop, yes it does for a couple seconds. Do I care, hell no! ;) Watching Letterman and Leno in HD is amazing! I watched all the NFL playoff games in HD last weekend and the BCS game Monday. Digital Rocks! Do your research and be patient. You'll find something that works for you. For now, I'm good! :D

afiggatt

01-11-07, 10:51 AM

I live in Newport News VA I got the terk tv5 I have all yellow and one red code channel. I am using 25ft of rg6 and I am also using an extra 12db amplifier and I have 88%+ on all channels but every once in a while about every 5 to 10 minutes some of the channels just drop then come right back up. Is there anything I can do to avoid the drop. I live about 18.5 miles away from the towers and the towers are between 190 degrees and 199 degrees on the compass so they are pretty close in direction.
Plugging in a random zip code for Newport News, VA - 23607 - into antennaweb, I get the following digital stations:

* yellow - uhf HERO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 210° 13.2 16
* yellow - uhf WGNT-DT 27.1 CW PORTSMOUTH VA 201° 12.4 50
* yellow - uhf WAVY-DT 10.1 NBC PORTSMOUTH VA 213° 12.6 31
* yellow - uhf WVBT-DT 43.1 FOX VIRGINIA BEACH VA 213° 12.6 29
* yellow - uhf WVEC-DT 13.1 ABC HAMPTON VA 203° 12.1 41
* yellow - uhf WPXV-DT 49.1 i NORFOLK VA 210° 13.2 46
* yellow - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 210° 13.2 40
* yellow - uhf WTVZ-DT 33.1 MNT NORFOLK VA 210° 13.2 38

All of the stations are currently digitally broadcasting on UHF. The good news for simplyfing antenna selection is that only WVEC-DT ABC 13 will be switching it's digital channel back to upper VHF, in their case 13, after the analog shutdown in February, 2009. Many UHF antenna can pick up VHF 13 reasonably well.

The Terk TV5 you have is not considered to be a very good antenna. If you are doing that well with it, you might want to give the Silver Sensor UHF antenna a shot. But you should place the antenna in a spot with a clear shot in the direction of the broadcast towers and where people don't walk in front of the antenna. Circuit City has been carrying the Silver Sensor under the Philips brand for around $25.

If you want to get somewhat more ambitous and have an attic or are willing to consider an outdoor mount, the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay should get all of those stations. The CM 4221 can be ordered online from places like solidsignal.com or warrenelectronics.com.

ama299

01-11-07, 02:38 PM

Dewey TO

01-12-07, 10:40 AM

I have seen numerous ravings about the CM 7777 preamp. I have the 7777, and I also have the CM 0264. I compared them using the Winegard 8800 bow antenna, and the 0264 outgained the 7777 by about 10% in my setup. The reason is that the 0264 has 300 ohm inputs and a balun is not needed.

jplayland

01-13-07, 11:45 AM

I have tried the silver sensor and the terk HDTVa antennas and depending on location within my apartment I can get most channels without signal loss, or all channels with frequent signal loss on a few.

I live at 55077, on the ground floor of a 3 story apartment built in the late 60s. My patio faces south and my bedroom window faces East. To the north and west are other apartments in my building and other apartment buildings. According to antennaweb signals are comming from 345° (NNW). Dish Network is being installed Monday but I ellected to skip locals since they do not carry them all, and I have been told OTA should be better quality. I would like to recieve the following locals:

* yellow - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 347° 13.2 26
* yellow - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 13.6 35
* yellow - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 13.6 32
* yellow - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 347° 13.2 21
* yellow - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 344° 13.6 50
* yellow - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 347° 13.2 34
* red - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 13.6 44 -can live without this one
* blue - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 344° 13.6 22

Will I have better luck with an outdoor antenna with my location/obstructions/placement options? Is there an antenna that can be attached to the dish being installed? What would you guys recommend for an (indoor or outdoor) antenna and its placement?

Rammitinski

01-13-07, 12:47 PM

Dish Network is being installed Monday but I ellected to skip locals since they do not carry them all, and I have been told OTA should be better quality.Just to make sure you're aware -

If you do not subscribe to the locals from Dish (Either HD or SD), you will not receive the guide info for those channels.

You can get the info from websites such as www.titantv.com or www.zap2it.com, though.

Gbell

01-13-07, 12:55 PM

ANy tips for a guy living in a condo building with ni balcony? I have two silvor sensors split and pointed in opposite directions (glass building across the street, so I'm assuming multicast).. I get NBC, but that is it!

Gbell

01-13-07, 12:55 PM

Oh, I live in downtown San Diego. my apartment faces west.

afiggatt

01-13-07, 03:58 PM

afiggatt

01-13-07, 11:09 PM

I live at 55077, on the ground floor of a 3 story apartment built in the late 60s. My patio faces south and my bedroom window faces East. To the north and west are other apartments in my building and other apartment buildings. According to antennaweb signals are comming from 345° (NNW).
[snip]
Will I have better luck with an outdoor antenna with my location/obstructions/placement options? Is there an antenna that can be attached to the dish being installed? What would you guys recommend for an (indoor or outdoor) antenna and its placement?
If you can place an antenna on the patio facing west, that might work. The AntennasDirect DB-2 two bay bowtie can be mounted indoors or in a patio area where it small enough to mounted in a discrete spot. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/DB2.html for a discussion. Look at the gain charts at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html.

KeithAR2002

01-14-07, 10:50 PM

I have a question about the 7777 Preamp. My 7777 power supply has gone out, and I was wondering if the power supply to the CM Spartan 3041DSB would work for the 7777. They sell the 3041DSB at Lowe's, and I didn't want to wait a week to get another 7777. If the power supply brick for the 3041DSB will work, then I would like to just go to Lowe's and pick it up, just for the power supply. Will this work? The power supply bricks look identical.

Thanks!

MAX HD

01-15-07, 12:01 AM

bradesp

01-15-07, 01:04 PM

Guys,

I'm ordering a CM7777 to work with my attic antenna (CM4221). The cable run from the antenna to my HTPC on the first floor of my house is approx. 100 feet. I also have an HDTV / Plasma in another room (upstairs) I want to feed as well.

So here's my question:

Let's assume a preamp is necessary (I can't pull in channels now, so I'm hoping it will help. the antennaweb folks say I'm yellow and red with one blue). I'm in North Raleigh, NC and the UHF Towers are all clustered in one location south east of where I am, and approx. 18 miles away.

How would you feed both tv's? How about this:
Antenna > Preamp > distribution Amp > splitter > two runs, one to each HDTV location.

Or would you go:

Antenna > Preamp > Splitter > Two runs and then avoid the distribution amp altogether?

Thanks!!!

bradesp

TotallyPreWired

01-15-07, 01:24 PM

How would you feed both tv's?
Brad,
I'd just try a splitter after the preamp 1st. Please remember that the 7777 is putting out 26 dB(UHF). Way more than enough to overcome 100' of cable attenuation, and easily enough to feed another 200' of cable.
....jc

ctdish

01-15-07, 01:25 PM

The distribution amp most likely won't help. If you really can't get anything at 18 miles either something is not connected correctly or the attic is well sheilded and the preamp is unlikely to solve the problem. Yellow and red signals are very strong and could overload the preamp so even that may hurt at your location. How do analog stations look on your TV, especially UHF ones? Ghosts indicate multipath and very snowy is caused by weak signal.
John

bradesp

01-15-07, 01:29 PM

I'll check out the queston regarding analog signal tonight and report back.

thx!

puddnhead

01-15-07, 11:07 PM

KeithAR2002

01-16-07, 12:09 AM

Yep,It'll work.

Thanks for the info... I went and got it today, and it worked perfectly. Thanks again!

WooleyBooger

01-17-07, 02:09 AM

exguitarplayer

01-17-07, 04:55 PM

KeithAR2002

01-17-07, 05:24 PM

afiggatt

01-17-07, 05:54 PM

Based on this info from AntennaWeb...what would be my best bet (as cheaply as possible) to receive these channels? I am new to all of this, but have been trying to learn all i can. Thanks for the help...

* red - uhf KTAL-DT 6.1 NBC TEXARKANA TX 169° 30.3 15
* blue - uhf KTBS-DT 3.1 ABC SHREVEPORT LA 166° 45.8 28
* violet - uhf KMSS-DT 34.1 FOX SHREVEPORT LA 167° 47.2 34
* violet - uhf KSLA-DT 12.1 CBS SHREVEPORT LA 167° 46.5 17
It is always useful to provide your zip code, so we can look up what other stations you may be able to receive. All four of the stations on your list are digitally broadcasting on UHF and these four will stay at UHF after the analog shutdown in 2009. They are all in the same direction at 30 to 47 miles. The typical antenna recommendation for you would be the Channel Master 4228 8 Bay or the AntennasDirect 91XG mounted on the roof. Look these antennas up at http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html under the comparing commercial antennas link.

WooleyBooger

01-17-07, 06:54 PM

Thanks for the info! I will take a look at both of those options. My zipcode btw is 75501.

Thanks again...

Neil L

01-17-07, 09:06 PM

When it drops to under 25 * my signal increases dramatically.My experience is just the opposite. From what I've read about signal propagation, it seems that a high dew point creates conditions that allow the TV signal to bend around the curve of the earth, thus the ability to receive at farther distances. When the air is cold and dry (low dew point), it should be pretty much line of sight only. 'Course there are several other factors involved.

My reception, at 75 miles, is much better from spring through fall, than it is in winter. Temp here right now is about 25 degrees and my reception sucks. Of the seven distant station I get during the summer, I'm only getting one of them right now.

KeithAR2002

01-18-07, 01:50 AM

Hey Neil, I'm just curious, but what is the one distant station you receive this time of the year? Is it from Memphis? I can usually at least get the Shreveport FOX station from here (El Dorado) after dark, but reception has been just horrible for the past week. Without some enhancement, all I can receive digitally is AETN, and NBC-HD. I'm guessing all you can receive under normal conditions are AETN and KAIT-DT. It's difficult living out in the sticks...lol...

exguitarplayer

01-18-07, 10:04 AM

I am confused about HDTV reception and cold weather. I live in upstate NY and I can receive OTT channels from MT. Mansfield, VT. I am using a antenna direct Uhf 91XG with a Winegard AP 8283 Chromstar 2000 Series Pre Amplifier, of course a rotor, approx. 60' in the air. I am by theory NOT suppose to receive the channels as I am out of the range and live in a DEEP fringe location.
Theory was wrong, I do receive most of the HD OTA with about a 60%-70% signal.
Now the question! When it drops to under 25 * my signal increases dramatically. Fox which transmits on Freq. 43 is almost impossible to view, but when the weather is cold (like today) 0* it is fantasic. It does not matter whether it is cloudy or clear...just cold!!!
Perhaps someone has the answer! I am afraid when spring comes my OTA will vanish like the snow...

Thanks for the replies.....My zip is 12912 and here are the stations per antennaweb
WPTZ-DT 5.1 NBC NORTH POLE NY 123° 33.4 14
uhf WETK-DT 33.1 PBS BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 32
uhf WCAX-DT 3.1 CBS BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 53
vhf WVNY-DT 22.1 ABC BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 13
uhf WFFF-DT 44.1 FOX BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 43
uhf WCFE-DT 57.1 PBS PLATTSBURGH NY 287° 20.9 38 (transmitting from Lyon MT, NY)
I do receive all the stations listed, however when it is above 30* the signal drops to the 50%-60% with much pixalization and drop outs. Like stated earlier 20* and below all on 70*-80* signal strength. I have spoke to the techs at Mt. Mansfield, VT. many times, they are as confused as I. They know my exact location and call me often when they are having problems (running on reduced power) to ask about my signal. Kind of neat really to have contact with the guys pushing out the power.

afiggatt

01-18-07, 10:13 AM

Thanks for the info! I will take a look at both of those options. My zipcode btw is 75501.
The complete list of the digital stations you should get should include:

* green - uhf KPXJ-DT 21.1 CW MINDEN LA TBD 166° 51.0 21
* red - uhf KSHV-DT 45.1 MNT SHREVEPORT LA 166° 53.4 44
* violet - uhf KLTS-DT 24.1 PBS SHREVEPORT LA 165° 51.5 25

The range is different because I am using only your zip code. The interesting thing is that KPXJ-DT CW 21 is a digital only station because they shut their analog broadcast in 2005. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KPXJ for details.

A check of the Shreveport local thread shows that KTAL NBC 6 is not yet broadcasting in HD, supposed to do so by mid-February.

shakin cliches

01-18-07, 11:02 AM

exguitarplayer

01-18-07, 11:21 AM

Hi everyone. I would love some insight on what kind of antenna to get.

Here are my numbers:
* red - uhf WLEX-DT 18.1 NBC LEXINGTON KY 122° 17.4 39
* red - vhf WKYT-DT 27.1 CBS LEXINGTON KY 122° 16.8 13
* red - vhf WDKY-DT 56.1 FOX DANVILLE KY 138° 27.0 4
* red - uhf WKON-DT 52.1 PBS OWENTON KY 349° 26.7 44
* blue - uhf WKLE-DT 46.1 PBS LEXINGTON KY 139° 26.9 42

Ideally, I would like to be able to pull it off with an indoor antenna, but if needed can mount an outdoor on the eastern side of my house.

Any input or ideas?

Thanks a bunch.

As a personal thought I would immediately go with the outside antenna option. As described in your post the different direction of signals you may want to purchase a rotor also.
I believe the Channel Master U/V/FM (3679) might be your choice as your receiving two VHF digital. However, if you want to TRY the indoor method 1st, the Channel Master Indoor UHF/VHF/FM INDOOR ANTENNA (4010) might work well.

shakin cliches

01-18-07, 11:25 AM

As a personal thought I would immediately go with the outside antenna option. As described in your post the different direction of signals you may want to purchase a rotor also.
I believe the Channel Master U/V/FM (3679) might be your choice as your receiving two VHF digital. However, if you want to TRY the indoor method 1st, the Channel Master Indoor UHF/VHF/FM INDOOR ANTENNA (4010) might work well.

Thanks for the advice.

Really I don't need the channel 52.1 at 349deg as long as I can pick up 46.1 at 139deg.

That would mean all 4 of my channels would be between 122 and 139 degrees. Would that change your opinion?

exguitarplayer

01-18-07, 12:21 PM

Thanks for the advice.

Really I don't need the channel 52.1 at 349deg as long as I can pick up 46.1 at 139deg.

That would mean all 4 of my channels would be between 122 and 139 degrees. Would that change your opinion?

Yes, if I were in your position I would go to the nearest Radio Shack and purchase their best Indoor Amplified Antenna, keep the receipt as you may want to return it. At the very least this would provide you an inference on what you are able to receive using the indoor option. Good luck !!

Rammitinski

01-18-07, 12:28 PM

Yes, if I were in your position I would go to the nearest Radio Shack and purchase their best Indoor Amplified Antenna, keep the receipt as you may want to return it. At the very least this would provide you an inference on what you are able to receive using the indoor option. Good luck !!You might want to try RS's 15-1892 model. It's remote controlled and repositions for every channel. It has gotten some good results for a few people here.

HBIC

01-18-07, 03:19 PM

antennaweb.org says that I need anywhere from a medium directional to a large directional with pre-amp

Fox is the one that comes up needing the large directional w/pre-amp but I get it(and about 14 other OTA Digital Signals off top of my head) with my Zenith Silver Sensor($23.75 delivered off Ebay)

my zipcode is 23185 but 23188 and 23090 are both very close to me too:

23185:

violet - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 165° 33.6 40
* violet - uhf WHRO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 165° 33.6 16

23090

green - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 169° 39.1 40
* green - uhf WHRO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 169° 39.1 16
* lt green - uhf WCVE-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 295° 48.0 42
* red - uhf WTVR-DT 6.1 CBS RICHMOND VA 295° 48.0 25
* red - uhf WRIC-DT 8.1 ABC PETERSBURG VA 295° 48.0 22
* red - uhf WTVZ-DT 33.1 MNT NORFOLK VA 169° 39.1 38
* red - uhf WVBT-DT 43.1 FOX VIRGINIA BEACH VA 169° 38.2 29
* red - uhf WVEC-DT 13.1 ABC HAMPTON VA 166° 39.4 41
* red - uhf WPXV-DT 49.1 i NORFOLK VA 169° 39.1 46
* red - uhf WAVY-DT 10.1 NBC PORTSMOUTH VA 169° 38.2 31
* red - uhf WWBT-DT 12.1 NBC RICHMOND VA 296° 42.7 54
* blue - uhf WCVW-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 295° 48.0 44
* violet - uhf WRLH-DT 35.1 FOX RICHMOND VA 295° 48.0 26

23188:
yellow - uhf WHRO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 169° 35.4 16
* yellow - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 169° 35.4 40
* yellow - uhf WTVZ-DT 33.1 MNT NORFOLK VA 169° 35.4 38
* yellow - uhf WVBT-DT 43.1 FOX VIRGINIA BEACH VA 170° 34.5 29
* yellow - uhf WVEC-DT 13.1 ABC HAMPTON VA 166° 35.6 41
* yellow - uhf WPXV-DT 49.1 i NORFOLK VA 169° 35.4 46
* yellow - uhf WAVY-DT 10.1 NBC PORTSMOUTH VA 170° 34.5 31
* blue - uhf WCVE-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 298° 50.3 42
* blue - uhf WCVW-DT 23.1 PBS RICHMOND VA 298° 50.3 44
* blue - uhf WWBT-DT 12.1 NBC RICHMOND VA 300° 45.0 54
* blue - uhf WUPV-DT 47.1 CW ASHLAND VA 328° 42.5 47
* blue - uhf WTVR-DT 6.1 CBS RICHMOND VA 298° 50.3 25
* blue - uhf WRIC-DT 8.1 ABC PETERSBURG VA 298° 50.3 22
* violet - uhf WRLH-DT 35.1 FOX RICHMOND VA 298° 50.3 26

I will ck tonite what channels i get exactly but i do know that Fox is 35.1 and that I dont get the Fox on 43.1

jtbell

01-18-07, 03:56 PM

my zipcode is 23185 but 23188 and 23090 are both very close to me too:

Note that with Antennaweb, you can click on the street-level map to re-center it and update the channel listings accordingly. With a bit of work, you can center it on your exact location (give or take a hundred feet or so). Or you can enter your address to give it a starting point that's close to your actual location, although I can understand why you might not want to do that.

Neil L

01-18-07, 06:29 PM

Hey Neil, I'm just curious, but what is the one distant station you receive this time of the year? Is it from Memphis? Yes, it's WREG. I can usually at least get the Shreveport FOX station from here (El Dorado) after dark, but reception has been just horrible for the past week. Without some enhancement, all I can receive digitally is AETN, and NBC-HD. I'm guessing all you can receive under normal conditions are AETN and KAIT-DT. That is correct. KAIT-DT is about 25 miles away, and AETN is 20 miles. I get both 24/7 in any kind of weather. It's difficult living out in the sticks...lol...Yup. When conditions are good, I get an excellant signal from some (if not all) of the Memphis stations. Other times the signal is too weak to get a lock.

thejokell

01-20-07, 03:58 PM

I've been looking for a good antenna for my new HDTV. So far I've used two that I could buy at Best Buy - a Terk HDTVa and an RCA ANT537. Neither have been good enough for my use. I'm currently trying to decide between the Winegard SS-3000 and the Winegard SS-1000. I've heard great things about both of them. I want to stick with an indoor antenna if possible, but I realize that an outdoor may be necessary. Here's my stats from AntennaWeb:

yellow - uhf WHRO-DT 15.1 PBS HAMPTON-NORFOLK VA 301° 14.0 16
* yellow - uhf WGNT-DT 27.1 CW PORTSMOUTH VA 305° 12.1 50
* yellow - uhf WPXV-DT 49.1 i NORFOLK VA 301° 14.0 46
* yellow - uhf WTKR-DT 3.1 CBS NORFOLK VA 301° 14.0 40
* yellow - uhf WTVZ-DT 33.1 MNT NORFOLK VA 301° 14.0 38
* green - uhf WAVY-DT 10.1 NBC PORTSMOUTH VA 303° 14.8 31
* red - uhf WVBT-DT 43.1 FOX VIRGINIA BEACH VA 303° 14.8 29
* red - uhf WVEC-DT 13.1 ABC HAMPTON VA 306° 12.5 41

Anyone familiar with those two Winegards have any advice? I'd love to be able to buy one in a store, so I can return it if necessary, but I can't seem to find anyone locally that sells one.

Thanks!

Wozzer73

01-21-07, 08:44 AM

You might want to try RS's 15-1892 model. It's remote controlled and repositions for every channel. It has gotten some good results for a few people here.

I can't generalize, but in my limited experience I found setting up the 15-1892 frustrating because of the dual variables of placing the antenna somewhere, and THEN having to use the built in motor to rotate it to find the "sweet spot". Furthermore, my TV would not "add" any digital channels unless I did the whole set tuning, meaning it would erase any channels not being received in the antenna's current position. I found that the Radio Shack 15-2186 gave me slightly better reception, is smaller than the 15-1892, and is way less frustrating to setup. The 15-2186 is still imperfect so I'm going to give the silver sensor a try, then I might just go back to the 15-2186 or get a DB-2. Anyone know if the DB-2 without a preamp will be better than the 15-2186?

exguitarplayer

01-21-07, 01:21 PM

I can't generalize, but in my limited experience I found setting up the 15-1892 frustrating because of the dual variables of placing the antenna somewhere, and THEN having to use the built in motor to rotate it to find the "sweet spot". Furthermore, my TV would not "add" any digital channels unless I did the whole set tuning, meaning it would erase any channels not being received in the antenna's current position. I found that the Radio Shack 15-2186 gave me slightly better reception, is smaller than the 15-1892, and is way less frustrating to setup. The 15-2186 is still imperfect so I'm going to give the silver sensor a try, then I might just go back to the 15-2186 or get a DB-2. Anyone know if the DB-2 without a preamp will be better than the 15-2186?

I have found the Antenna Direct 91XG to be an outstanding antenna. I reside in a deep fringe area in upstate NY.....this antenna does the job for me!
WPTZ-DT 5.1 NBC NORTH POLE NY 123° 33.4 14
uhf WETK-DT 33.1 PBS BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 32
uhf WCAX-DT 3.1 CBS BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 53
vhf WVNY-DT 22.1 ABC BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 13
uhf WFFF-DT 44.1 FOX BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 43
uhf WCFE-DT 57.1 PBS PLATTSBURGH NY 287° 20.9 38

Mike Maloney

01-21-07, 01:53 PM

I think I suck at hooking up my antenna. Long story short, my apartment building has Dish Network running through the building, but it can currently only handle MPEG2, not MPEG4, so while I can get ESPNHD, TNTHD, etc., I can't get any of my local HD channels. So...I picked up an indoor antenna (RCA ANT1250). I looked up a list of antennas on antennaweb (60610). Now, since I live in downtown Chicago, there are a number of antennas in the vicinity, so I would assume I would be able to pick up signals.

Well, after some fiddling around, I've managed to get my Dish receiver (Model 811) to pick up CBS-HD. However, I can't for the life of me get anything resembling signal strength from any other channel. I figure with three antennas within a mile of my building, I have to be doing something wrong.

My antenna has the option to be amplified. I was told this could cause overload, so I have been trying to pick up the signals without the amplification (Well, I've tried it both ways, neither works). Now, since our whole building is supplied by Dish, I have to use the regular cable coax input into the receiver, since that's how everything is hooked up. So I have my satellite input running through the antenna, and then the antenna hooks up to the receiver. I'm just going based on the antenna's instructions. Should I be putting the antenna into my receiver's 'antenna' input, and if so, what does that do for me? What else could I be doing wrong? I have to be screwing up somewhere in order to not get any signal strength from any of the digital channels out there.

Any help would be appreciated.

afiggatt

01-21-07, 04:23 PM

So...I picked up an indoor antenna (RCA ANT1250). I looked up a list of antennas on antennaweb (60610). Now, since I live in downtown Chicago, there are a number of antennas in the vicinity, so I would assume I would be able to pick up signals.
...
My antenna has the option to be amplified. I was told this could cause overload, so I have been trying to pick up the signals without the amplification (Well, I've tried it both ways, neither works).
You typically can't turn the amplifier off with these cheap antennas with the built-in amps. Turning the amp off shuts off the signal path from the antenna. Turn the amp on and you may overload the front end and/or make your multipath problems a lot worse. If you live close to the broadcast towers, you should NOT buy an antenna with a built-in amp.

In Chicago, you have the problem of getting the low VHF station while the other digital stations are currently at UHF. Get an non-amplified antenna with rabbit ears for VHF and either a UHF loop or Silver Sensor UHF antenna. Hate to recommend a Terk, but give the Terk HDTVi (NOT the HDTVa!!!!) a shot.

ctdish

01-21-07, 04:32 PM

- Also connect the apartment building cable to the F connector labeled Satellite and your TV antenna to the TV F connector, both on the back of the 811. Then do a scan for local channels. John

cpcat

01-22-07, 07:38 AM

I have found the Antenna Direct 91XG to be an outstanding antenna. I reside in a deep fringe area in upstate NY.....this antenna does the job for me!
WPTZ-DT 5.1 NBC NORTH POLE NY 123° 33.4 14
uhf WETK-DT 33.1 PBS BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 32
uhf WCAX-DT 3.1 CBS BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 53
vhf WVNY-DT 22.1 ABC BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 13
uhf WFFF-DT 44.1 FOX BURLINGTON VT 123° 33.4 43
uhf WCFE-DT 57.1 PBS PLATTSBURGH NY 287° 20.9 38

Most wouldn't consider 33 miles deep fringe. Probably more like medium range.
Glad you are having success though.

exguitarplayer

01-22-07, 01:58 PM

Most wouldn't consider 33 miles deep fringe. Probably more like medium range.
Glad you are having success though.

It is considered deep fringe as this location has many mountains directly in my line of sight. As you stated though, I am having success.

nugs

01-22-07, 03:32 PM

Hi All,

Hoping to get some recommendations on an antenna, UHF and VHF. I'm only worried about HD channels. I've checked out several listed in this thread, mainly ones from Radio Shack because that seems to be the way to go and there's one near by, but I'm open to anything.

I picked up the "Silver Surfer" a week or so ago with not much hope because I'm pretty far from most of the towers. The SS picks up one local HD channel fine (WTIU), but no others. So I'm looking for something bigger. I'm not worried about mounting it outside or in the attic (even better) Here is my antennaweb info. Zipcode is 47429 and will point towards Indianapolis.

uhf WTIU-DT 30.1 PBS BLOOMINGTON IN 134° 10.0 14
uhf WTTV-DT 29.1 CW BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.7 48
uhf WIPX-DT 63.1 i BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.8 27
uhf WCLJ-DT 56.1 TBN BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.6 56
uhf WRTV-DT 6.1 ABC INDIANAPOLIS IN 30° 51.4 25
vhf WISH-DT 8.1 CBS INDIANAPOLIS IN 30° 50.7 9

The U-75R looks good but is it strong enough? What about the VU-75XR? Do I need an amplified antenna? Any indoors like the 15-1892 worth it? Any suggestions? I'm trying to get the Indy stations mainly. Thanks

cpcat

01-22-07, 05:25 PM

In case this info might be useful to anyone, I've finally figured out what was wrong with my quad. The "new" DAT 75 with the large reflector also has a new PCB balun. By trial and error and alot of hair pulling, I've been able to phase the "old" and "new" DAT 75's by adding around 5.5 inches to the cables on the "old" DAT 75. The signal path inside the PCB on the new one is apparently longer and this would also seem to be confirmed by inspecting the PCB itself.

Obviously, it would have been nice if Televes would have made this info more readily available. They probably should have redesignated the new antenna with a different model number as well IMO.

cpcat

01-22-07, 05:31 PM

Hi All,

uhf WTIU-DT 30.1 PBS BLOOMINGTON IN 134° 10.0 14
uhf WTTV-DT 29.1 CW BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.7 48
uhf WIPX-DT 63.1 i BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.8 27
uhf WCLJ-DT 56.1 TBN BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.6 56
uhf WRTV-DT 6.1 ABC INDIANAPOLIS IN 30° 51.4 25
vhf WISH-DT 8.1 CBS INDIANAPOLIS IN 30° 50.7 9

At 50 miles, probably a CM 4228 outdoors with a preamp would be your best first step. You could also go with a long range yagi/corner reflector like the XG91 but you won't have much of a chance at WISH on vhf 9 if you go that way. The CM 4228 has decent gain at channel 9 but still may not do it.

If you need to, add a high band vhf antenna like the antennacraft Y10 7-13. You will need to diplex the antennas if that is the case. The CM 7777 preamp will diplex them for you so that would be the preferred preamp to get.

afiggatt

01-22-07, 05:38 PM

I picked up the "Silver Surfer" a week or so ago with not much hope because I'm pretty far from most of the towers. The SS picks up one local HD channel fine (WTIU), but no others. So I'm looking for something bigger. I'm not worried about mounting it outside or in the attic (even better) Here is my antennaweb info. Zipcode is 47429 and will point towards Indianapolis.

uhf WTIU-DT 30.1 PBS BLOOMINGTON IN 134° 10.0 14
uhf WTTV-DT 29.1 CW BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.7 48
uhf WIPX-DT 63.1 i BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.8 27
uhf WCLJ-DT 56.1 TBN BLOOMINGTON IN 69° 28.6 56
uhf WRTV-DT 6.1 ABC INDIANAPOLIS IN 30° 51.4 25
vhf WISH-DT 8.1 CBS INDIANAPOLIS IN 30° 50.7 9

The U-75R looks good but is it strong enough? What about the VU-75XR? Do I need an amplified antenna? Any indoors like the 15-1892 worth it? Any suggestions? I'm trying to get the Indy stations mainly. Thanks
The Radio Shack U-75R yagi is a highly directional UHF antenna. It is very unlikely to receive WISH-DT CBS 8 which is broadcasting on VHF 9. You have around a 40 degree spread in azimuth between the two main groups of stations. The PBS station is well off in azimuth from the rest, but at 10 miles, you may be able to pick it up with an antenna aimed at your more distant stations.

The Radio Shack VU-75XR is a candidate as it is a medium range VHF/UHF antenna and should have a wider pickup in azimuth than long range directional antennas. You are going to have to go with an attic or rooftop mount with stations at 50 miles. A rotator is also probably going to be required, especially if you go with a roof mount. Some here will recommend the Winegard and Channel Master antennas as better made than the Radio Shacks.

Plug in a height of 150 or 200 feet into antennaweb under the options link. This is a useful trick to get a more complete list of digital stations, although you may not be able to get all of them.

ryancmor17

01-22-07, 11:01 PM

Here is my antenaweb for 44035.

I was ready to pull the trigger on a RS VU-90 XR, but neither store near me has any in stock so I will take this time to get a second opinion. The spec says up to 70 miles, so ignoring the Akron/Canton stations I should be ok for all others. In my case for ease of installation in the snow I want to temporarily mount this in the attic until spring, will this be overkill at 70 miles in the attic or should I go smaller?

* yellow - uhf WJW-DT 8.1 FOX CLEVELAND OH 101° 18.6 31
* yellow - uhf WEWS-DT 5.1 ABC CLEVELAND OH 99° 18.5 15
* yellow - uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland OH 97° 19.3 34
* green - uhf WUAB-DT 43.1 MNT LORAIN OH 98° 18.4 28
* red - vhf WOIO-DT 19.1 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 96° 19.7 10
* red - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 96° 20.0 2
* red - uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON OH 97° 19.7 30
* blue - uhf WEAO-DT 50.1 PBS AKRON OH 139° 30.9 50
* blue - uhf WVPX-DT 59 i AKRON OH TBD 138° 33.7 59
* violet - uhf WDLI-DT 39.1 TBN CANTON OH 139° 33.7 39

hellsredsled

01-23-07, 11:10 PM

TotallyPreWired

01-23-07, 11:23 PM

newsposter

01-24-07, 07:56 AM

On the back there is no dedicated HD antenna input like my Mits TV.

does that tv actually say HD antenna on the back of it?

TotallyPreWired

01-24-07, 08:04 AM

does that tv actually say HD antenna on the back of it?
I have an older Mits, and mine says: ANT-DTV. It also has 2 other Antenna inputs for analog. All 3 are Female F-Connectors.
....jc

holl_ands

01-24-07, 06:43 PM

ok, my parents have a Sony KDF50WE655. On the back there is no dedicated HD antenna input like my Mits TV. Does the HD antenna hook up to the uhf/vhf antenna input and receive over the air HD programing? Help plz.. :)
"VHF/UHF" input receives both NTSC (Analog) and ATSC (Digital) on-air broadcasts.

"CABLE" input receives NTSC (Analog for Basic/Extended Cable),
Unencrypted QAM (local HD digital channels, does not require CableCARD)
and Encrypted QAM (all other digital cable channels when CableCARD is used).

Boc3phus

01-25-07, 12:49 PM

Hi All.

I am really a newb at this stuff but I am considering dropping the Locals from my current Satellite provider's HD plan. I would like any and all recommendations for an antenna and accessories that would help me pick up the channels from AntennaWeb below. (These are the results from my exact location.) No tree or two-story homes are in my path.

The antenna would likely go in my attic or be mounted to the Dish mount on my roof. I currently have an extra mount because my current dish could not use the existing mount on my home.

Any and all help is appreciated.

Thanks

* yellow - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 179° 41.1 41
* yellow - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 179° 40.8 24
* yellow - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 CW DALLAS TX 178° 44.0 32
* yellow - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 179° 41.2 35
* yellow - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 179° 40.9 51
* yellow - uhf KERA-DT 13.1 PBS DALLAS TX 177° 41.5 14
* yellow - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 179° 41.1 40
* yellow - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 177° 41.5 19
* yellow - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 178° 44.0 18
* yellow - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 i ARLINGTON TX 179° 40.8 42
* yellow - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 178° 44.0 43
* green - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 178° 44.0 48
* green - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 179° 41.2 9

afiggatt

01-25-07, 05:41 PM

I am really a newb at this stuff but I am considering dropping the Locals from my current Satellite provider's HD plan. I would like any and all recommendations for an antenna and accessories that would help me pick up the channels from AntennaWeb below. (These are the results from my exact location.) No tree or two-story homes are in my path.
You have 1 digital station at upper VHF in the antennaweb list, WFAA-DT ABC 8 (9). A check of the FCC data for the post analog shutdown in February, 2009 shows KTVT-DT CBS 11 (19) switching it's digital broadcast to VHF 11 in 2009. So you need to get UHF and upper VHF 7 to 13 stations. All the stations are in the same direction at 40 to 44 miles, so a medium to long range directional antenna should do the job.

A Channel Master 4228 would work for the UHF stations, but it may not have the performance for the upper VHF stations at 40+ miles. It also is rather large to go on a dish style mount. On the other hand, you should have rather flat terrain, so a more compact medium range antenna such as the Square Shooter might work, but may also not perform well for upper VHF. Just how large an antenna can your mount setup handle?

texasbrit

01-25-07, 09:55 PM

You have 1 digital station at upper VHF in the antennaweb list, WFAA-DT ABC 8 (9). A check of the FCC data for the post analog shutdown in February, 2009 shows KTVT-DT CBS 11 (19) switching it's digital broadcast to VHF 11 in 2009. So you need to get UHF and upper VHF 7 to 13 stations. All the stations are in the same direction at 40 to 44 miles, so a medium to long range directional antenna should do the job.

A Channel Master 4228 would work for the UHF stations, but it may not have the performance for the upper VHF stations at 40+ miles. It also is rather large to go on a dish style mount. On the other hand, you should have rather flat terrain, so a more compact medium range antenna such as the Square Shooter might work, but may also not perform well for upper VHF. Just how large an antenna can your mount setup handle?

You have pretty typical results for DFW at 40 miles; I am just east of Allen at about 42 miles from the transmitter farm at Cedar Hill, slightly worse reception area than you. I have a 4228 and CM7777 preamp, attic mounted on a tripod, and get all the DFW stations OK. The reception with the CM4228 on upper VHF is OK at this range; the CM4228 is basically the "antenna of choice" for DFW. You can forget the Square Shooter. The CM4228 will not fit a dish style mount so if you want to put it outside (preferred) it will have to be mounted on a pole attached to your wall or chimney, or on the roof.

Boc3phus

01-26-07, 08:57 AM

You have 1 digital station at upper VHF in the antennaweb list, WFAA-DT ABC 8 (9). A check of the FCC data for the post analog shutdown in February, 2009 shows KTVT-DT CBS 11 (19) switching it's digital broadcast to VHF 11 in 2009. So you need to get UHF and upper VHF 7 to 13 stations. All the stations are in the same direction at 40 to 44 miles, so a medium to long range directional antenna should do the job.

A Channel Master 4228 would work for the UHF stations, but it may not have the performance for the upper VHF stations at 40+ miles. It also is rather large to go on a dish style mount. On the other hand, you should have rather flat terrain, so a more compact medium range antenna such as the Square Shooter might work, but may also not perform well for upper VHF. Just how large an antenna can your mount setup handle?

afiggatt,

Thanks for the information. After looking the 4228 up, it definately will not work on the Dish mount. Looks like it will need to go in the attic as i really don't want to put it anywhere else outside. I just hope that having the antenna in the attic wont degrade the reception to much and keep me from getting the ABC and eventually the CBS channels.

Boc3phus

01-26-07, 10:55 AM

You have pretty typical results for DFW at 40 miles; I am just east of Allen at about 42 miles from the transmitter farm at Cedar Hill, slightly worse reception area than you. I have a 4228 and CM7777 preamp, attic mounted on a tripod, and get all the DFW stations OK. The reception with the CM4228 on upper VHF is OK at this range; the CM4228 is basically the "antenna of choice" for DFW. You can forget the Square Shooter. The CM4228 will not fit a dish style mount so if you want to put it outside (preferred) it will have to be mounted on a pole attached to your wall or chimney, or on the roof.

texasbrit,

Thanks for the response. I agree about the 4228 not working on the dish mount, now that I've seen that antenna. I do like the idea of the tripod in the attic. I'm sure I can find a nice spot to put it. Right now, all i want is to run the wire to the living room but that could change. Can you recommend a splitter for me? I will probably do this in the next couple of months so i have plenty of time to read up on wires, etc and get everything purchased.

Thanks Again.

RubberToe

01-26-07, 01:37 PM

holl_ands

01-26-07, 04:22 PM

Ok,
This is more of an OTA antenna wiring question than anything else. I live in a 30 year old condo building that has an OTA antenna with a building wide distribution syste, Currently there is a 300 ohm screw in wall jack. I need to move this jack to another location, which will require extending the current wire (not sure what kind), and also converting it to the more typical 75 ohm cable jack to run to my ATSC tuner. There are currently some electronics behind my wall jack, not sure what they do.

I'm in Pasadena, Ca. and I have been calling all the local antenna places to no avail. Everyone is getting out of that business. Does anyone have a referral to someone who could do this work, or even a link to a wiring diagram that would allow my current electrician to do it?

Thanks,
Robert
Sounds like all you need is a 300-to-75 OHM BALUN TRANSFORMER:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103912&cp=&sr=1&origkw=300+ohm+transformer&kw=300+ohm+transformer&parentPage=search
http://shop3.outpost.com/%7BvUP1hfcllcnf7nq0VXx8ZA**.node2%7D/product/2570351;jsessionid=vUP1hfcllcnf7nq0VXx8ZA**.node2?site=sr:SE ARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

You connect the two leads of the BALUN TRANSFORMER to your existing 300-ohm wall connector
and then run RG-59 or RG-6 coax cable (Fry's, R-S, Home Depot) to your TV.

Actually MOVING the antique wall mount connector could get messy when the fragile old wiring is disturbed.
And the "electronics" is probably a power divider network, which probably has a divide ratio other than a simple 2:1.....

RubberToe

01-26-07, 04:32 PM

Sounds like all you need is a 300-to-75 OHM BALUN TRANSFORMER:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103912&cp=&sr=1&origkw=300+ohm+transformer&kw=300+ohm+transformer&parentPage=search
http://shop3.outpost.com/%7BvUP1hfcllcnf7nq0VXx8ZA**.node2%7D/product/2570351;jsessionid=vUP1hfcllcnf7nq0VXx8ZA**.node2?site=sr:SE ARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

You connect the two leads of the BALUN TRANSFORMER to your existing 300-ohm wall connector
and then run RG-59 or RG-6 coax cable to your TV.

Actually MOVING the antique wall mount connector could get messy when the fragile old wiring is disturbed.
And the "electronics" is probably a power divider network, which probably has a divide ratio other than a simple 2:1.....

Holl-ands,
This is quite funny, I actually just bought 3 of those from Radio Shack for when I help others in the building connect to their new HDTV's.

There are 2 reasons why my installation isn't that simple. I need to move the wall jack about 8 feet away from where it is now. The cable inside the wall isnt long enough so it will need to be spliced with about 8 feet added. Since I'm already doing that, I figured I might as well make the end of it a 75 ohm connector right on the wall for a clean look.

I suppose I could do what you suggested and then run the RG-59 in the wall to the back of a 75 ohm jack. The front of the jack would then look the same as it would in my proposed setup, except that there is that 300-75 ohm transformer buried behind drywall. Don't know if that presents any signal integrity problems or not.

Robert

muchium

01-26-07, 04:51 PM

Mike Maloney

01-26-07, 05:28 PM

Okay, update time...

You typically can't turn the amplifier off with these cheap antennas with the built-in amps. Turning the amp off shuts off the signal path from the antenna. Turn the amp on and you may overload the front end and/or make your multipath problems a lot worse. If you live close to the broadcast towers, you should NOT buy an antenna with a built-in amp.

In Chicago, you have the problem of getting the low VHF station while the other digital stations are currently at UHF. Get an non-amplified antenna with rabbit ears for VHF and either a UHF loop or Silver Sensor UHF antenna. Hate to recommend a Terk, but give the Terk HDTVi (NOT the HDTVa!!!!) a shot.
So, I picked up the Terk HDTVi per your suggestion. I can't get any channels with this one, while I was able to at least get CBS-HD with the other antenna. I tried plugging it into the TV F connector and the Antenna F connector, no luck with either one.
- Also connect the apartment building cable to the F connector labeled Satellite and your TV antenna to the TV F connector, both on the back of the 811. Then do a scan for local channels. John
My receiver can't pick up a signal if I connect the building cable to the F connector labeled satellite. It's supposed to go into the TV F connector. That is the only way to get a satellite picture.

So, I tried a new antenna, and had even worse results. So, I'm still 1 for about 15 channels, and I still have no idea what I'm doing wrong. :( :confused:

holl_ands

01-26-07, 07:22 PM

Hi all, I'm new to this as well.
I've been reading all the information here and I would appreciate some advice.

I live in Phoenix, AZ 85028. Intersection is Tatum & Shea, about 18 miles from the signal towers.

These are the local stations given to me by AntennaWeb

lt green - uhf KTVP-LD 56 HTN PHOENIX AZ TBD 96° 20.8 56
red - vhf KTVK 3 IND PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.1 3
red - vhf KPHO 5 CBS PHOENIX AZ 182° 18.0 5
blue - vhf KPNX 12 NBC MESA AZ 183° 18.1 12
blue - vhf KSAZ 10 FOX PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.0 10
blue - vhf KAET 8 PBS PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.1 8
violet - uhf KTVW 33 UNI PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.1 33
violet - uhf KNXV 15 ABC PHOENIX AZ 183° 18.1 15
violet - uhf KUTP 45 MNT PHOENIX AZ 182° 18.0 45
violet - uhf KPPX 51 i TOLLESON AZ 182° 18.0 51

The website recommended I get a medium to large directional antenna with a pre amp.

I currently have several analog tv sets and would like to cancel my basic cox cable subscription.
I also have a dish with a digital tuner box for receiving international channels.
I would like to wire the whole house using the signal from the antenna.
I plan to upgrade to HDTV in the near future, as soon as the antenna is setup.

I've decided on the 42XG antenna from Antennas Direct.

Will this antenna be sufficient for me? Can I wire my house from this antenna?
I was planning to mount the antenna on the side of the house, but the neighbor's house blocks line of sight. I can also mount this on my chimney, which should give me a better LOS but there is a small hill in the way.

Thanks in advance for all your advice.
OUCH---Took a quick look using GoogleEarth....you have a big hill blocking Phoenix reception.
LOS to South Mtn Towers goes right through that very high peak just South of you.
It's 1000-ft higher and will block nearly all signals.

However, my guess is that you have a good chance for a bounce off
Praying Monk/Camelback Mtn to the East of Tatum Blvd to get Phoenix DTV stations
(and/or bounce off nearby mountains to NE).
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=33%2E586&longitude=%2D111%2E983&magnetic_north=0&range=130&sort=distance&show_expired=True&show_construction=False&show_analog=True&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

Since www.antennaweb.org is notoriously conservative,
I punched in 200-ft antenna height and found fol. for DTV:

lt green - uhf KTVP-LD 56 HTN PHOENIX AZ TBD 96° 20.8 56
red - uhf KUAT-DT 6.1 PBS TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 30
blue - uhf KMSB-DT 11.1 FOX TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 25
blue - uhf KTTU-DT 18.1 MNT TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 19
blue - uhf KGUN-DT 9.1 ABC TUCSON AZ 126° 109.2 35
violet - uhf KUVE-DT 46.1 UNI GREEN VALLEY AZ 126° 109.2 47
violet - uhf KOLD-DT 13.1 CBS TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 32

So you may have a shot at Tucson DTV stations as well.

Since you're gonna need as much help as possible--higher is better.
I would suggest higher gain CM-4228 (which also has gain in upper-VHF), a rotator
and the CM-7777 Preamp---which has more than enough gain to drive multiple RF Splitters.

holl_ands

01-26-07, 08:04 PM

Holl-ands,
This is quite funny, I actually just bought 3 of those from Radio Shack for when I help others in the building connect to their new HDTV's.

There are 2 reasons why my installation isn't that simple. I need to move the wall jack about 8 feet away from where it is now. The cable inside the wall isnt long enough so it will need to be spliced with about 8 feet added. Since I'm already doing that, I figured I might as well make the end of it a 75 ohm connector right on the wall for a clean look.

I suppose I could do what you suggested and then run the RG-59 in the wall to the back of a 75 ohm jack. The front of the jack would then look the same as it would in my proposed setup, except that there is that 300-75 ohm transformer buried behind drywall. Don't know if that presents any signal integrity problems or not.

Robert
Can you identify the type of cable feeding the wallplate and whether is a simple dead-end drop,
or whether it's just one stop in a daisy-chain?

If it's a dead-end coax feed, the "electrical stuff" should be just a balun and maybe all you need to do is cut and crimp
on a F-type connector so you can attach an extender cable via female-female in-line connector.
Then you can buy a new wallplate with a coax connector....or simpy poke the cable through a simple hole-in-one wallplate.
I've seen them at our local Home Depot and R-S.

If it's a dead-end twin-lead (300-ohm) cable, I would just solder the leads, wrap with electrical tape,
bury the balun in the wall and attach an extension coax.
I would try to mount the balun to keep the twin-leads away from nearby objects as much as possible....

If it's a daisy chain, ya gotta know what kind of divider network was used...probably time for a pro...

holl_ands

01-26-07, 08:13 PM

greywolf

01-26-07, 09:24 PM

You need to check with the condo maintenance people. Doing something wrong can cut off service to other units. Coax systems use taps instead of splitters for example. They also need to know which units are connected to keep the system balanced.

texasbrit

01-27-07, 01:37 PM

OUCH---Took a quick look using GoogleEarth....you have a big hill blocking Phoenix reception.
LOS to South Mtn Towers goes right through that very high peak just South of you.
It's 1000-ft higher and will block nearly all signals.

However, my guess is that you have a good chance for a bounce off
Praying Monk/Camelback Mtn to the East of Tatum Blvd to get Phoenix DTV stations
(and/or bounce off nearby mountains to NE).
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=33%2E586&longitude=%2D111%2E983&magnetic_north=0&range=130&sort=distance&show_expired=False&show_construction=False&show_analog=True&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

Since www.antennaweb.org is notoriously conservative,
I punched in 200-ft antenna height and found fol. for DTV:

lt green - uhf KTVP-LD 56 HTN PHOENIX AZ TBD 96° 20.8 56
red - uhf KUAT-DT 6.1 PBS TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 30
blue - uhf KMSB-DT 11.1 FOX TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 25
blue - uhf KTTU-DT 18.1 MNT TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 19
blue - uhf KGUN-DT 9.1 ABC TUCSON AZ 126° 109.2 35
violet - uhf KUVE-DT 46.1 UNI GREEN VALLEY AZ 126° 109.2 47
violet - uhf KOLD-DT 13.1 CBS TUCSON AZ 125° 109.3 32

So you may have a shot at Tucson DTV stations as well.

Since you're gonna need as much help as possible--higher is better.
I would suggest higher gain CM-4228 (which also has gain in upper-VHF), a rotator
and the CM-7777 Preamp---which has more than enough gain to drive multiple RF Splitters.

I think the OP mentioned analog also, the CM4228 will not receive the VHF-lo band analog stations.

holl_ands

01-28-07, 03:53 AM

I think the OP mentioned analog also, the CM4228 will not receive the VHF-lo band analog stations.
Kerry Cozad measured +2 dBd gain for CH2, 4 and 6 on a real CM4228....
Or about what a folded dipole provides after you account for some "ground bounce gain" in Cozad's measurements.

I would try it and see what diffracts over (and around) that hill--which is easier for VHF--after all towers are only 18 miles away.

It would be of interest to know what kind of antenna is currently used for CH6 and below.....
And how well it works...

And if it doesn't work, he can use a separate (existing?) VHF antenna with a UHF/VHF Hybrid Combiner for the CM4228.

Jhamps10

01-28-07, 04:43 PM

HELP!!!!!! Newbie here

I'm say 70+ miles from all stations, plus I have different stations from different markets, so I know a rotor, and mostlikely an amp will be required. I'm real confused here. my zip is 62839. I know I'll need it to be mounted outside, and maybe a lot taller than my house (one story ranch home). I did the height of 200 feet and here's what it showed:

yellow - vhf WPXS 13 IND MOUNT VERNON IL 251° 25.9 13
yellow - uhf WUSI 16 PBS Olney IL 60° 21.7 16
* yellow - uhf WUSI-DT 16.1 PBS OLNEY IL 60° 21.7 19
green - uhf WNOI-LP 24 FMN FLORA IL 97° 6.5 24
blue - uhf WVUT 22 PBS VINCENNES IN 93° 53.7 22
blue - vhf WTVW 7 FOX EVANSVILLE IN 128° 75.1 7
blue - uhf WEIL-LP 54 CW EFFINGHAM IL 359° 37.8 54
blue - vhf WTWO 2 NBC TERRE HAUTE IN 57° 70.2 2
blue - vhf WTHI 10 CBS TERRE HAUTE IN 57° 70.4 10
blue - uhf WEHT 25 ABC EVANSVILLE IN 140° 74.4 25
blue - uhf WFIE 14 NBC EVANSVILLE IN 138° 75.1 14
blue - vhf WSIU 8 PBS CARBONDALE IL 228° 57.4 8
violet - vhf WNIN 9 PBS EVANSVILLE IN 127° 80.8 9
violet - uhf WEVV 44 CBS EVANSVILLE IN 138° 74.1 44
violet - vhf WSIL 3 ABC HARRISBURG IL 198° 76.4 3
violet - uhf WFXW 38 FOX TERRE HAUTE IN 57° 69.5 38

A LOT of these stations have DT signals, but are not at full power yet btw except for WTHI and why they aren't there besides than antennaweb is too conservative. I know that for a fact because my grandma lives about 80 miles east of st. louis and can pick up all but 1 of the STL stations pretty clearly on analog on her antenna, I have no clue what it is as it was there when she moved in some 15 years ago, but it is set up maybe 5 feet at most above her house on a tower and antenna web shows her not getting ANY stl stations.

afiggatt

01-28-07, 06:20 PM

I'm say 70+ miles from all stations, plus I have different stations from different markets, so I know a rotor, and mostlikely an amp will be required. I'm real confused here. my zip is 62839. I know I'll need it to be mounted outside, and maybe a lot taller than my house (one story ranch home). I did the height of 200 feet and here's what it showed:...
One key question is whether all the digital stations are on UHF or not. Plugging in a height of 1200' just to get a complete list of the digital stations around you (you are not likely to get all those stations, but just for the list), I see all but one station are currently on UHF. The one exception is WINN-DT PBS 9 on upper VHF 12 in Evansville, IN and that is 81 miles from your zip code. WTHI-DT CBS 10 is currently broadcasting on VHF 24 at not very high power, but will be switching it's digital signal to VHF 10 in 2009.

So for now, you need a long range UHF antenna for the digital stations. If you are willing to take a gamble, get a AntennasDirect 91XG UHF antenna, a CM 7777 pre-amp, a rotator, and put up a tall mast on the roof. You should put up a mast sturdy and long enough to have room to add a VHF or upper VHF antenna in 2009. You should check the local threads for each city to find out about the status of each station. Entering the station call letters into wikepedia is also useful for station info and provides a shortcut to the FCC database (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html). Stacking two 91XGs may be something you may have to look into.

You should also look into getting the best ATSC tuner available to increase your odds of success. The new Samsung DTB-H260F is getting good marks for locking onto weak signals and handling multi-path problems.

Good luck. You will need it!

Mustang1

01-28-07, 07:35 PM

Jhamps10

01-28-07, 08:08 PM

One key question is whether all the digital stations are on UHF or not. Plugging in a height of 1200' just to get a complete list of the digital stations around you (you are not likely to get all those stations, but just for the list), I see all but one station are currently on UHF. The one exception is WINN-DT PBS 9 on upper VHF 12 in Evansville, IN and that is 81 miles from your zip code. WTHI-DT CBS 10 is currently broadcasting on VHF 24 at not very high power, but will be switching it's digital signal to VHF 10 in 2009.

So for now, you need a long range UHF antenna for the digital stations. If you are willing to take a gamble, get a AntennasDirect 91XG UHF antenna, a CM 7777 pre-amp, a rotator, and put up a tall mast on the roof. You should put up a mast sturdy and long enough to have room to add a VHF or upper VHF antenna in 2009. You should check the local threads for each city to find out about the status of each station. Entering the station call letters into wikepedia is also useful for station info and provides a shortcut to the FCC database (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html). Stacking two 91XGs may be something you may have to look into.

You should also look into getting the best ATSC tuner available to increase your odds of success. The new Samsung DTB-H260F is getting good marks for locking onto weak signals and handling multi-path problems.

Good luck. You will need it!

what about an vhf/uhf long range combo antenna such as the VU-190 from radio shack? I've noticed that a lot of people around here has that kind of antenna and also what height above the roof should I put this? I don't want it to be too tall, due to being susptible to high winds which are possible around here during severe storms.

afiggatt

01-29-07, 12:07 AM

what about an vhf/uhf long range combo antenna such as the VU-190 from radio shack? I've noticed that a lot of people around here has that kind of antenna and also what height above the roof should I put this? I don't want it to be too tall, due to being susptible to high winds which are possible around here during severe storms.
For starters, the Radio Shack VU-190XR is a very large antenna. But many here would recommend the Winegard, Channel Masters, and AntennasDirect conventional VHF/UHF antennas over the Radio Shacks. I don't see any detailed specs for dB gain performance on the antennas at Radio Shack's website. Winegard, Channel Master, and AntennasDirect do provide those basic specs.

The 91XG gets high marks here for long range UHF performance as does the CM 4228. The 91XG is much lighter than the CM 4228, so that is why a number of people use it. Have you look at the charts at this site - http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html? Given where you are, you will need all the gain you can get. One option is to get the 91XG and combine that at the outset with a VHF only antenna.

Perhaps you can get several others with similar very long range setups to weigh in here.

cpcat

01-29-07, 07:38 AM

afiggatt

01-29-07, 09:12 AM

Hi, im 21 miles away from the main antennas. Is this any good?

http://shop3.outpost.com/%7BIqrYZz4zccOYny+-xdBDEw**.node3%7D/product/4764739;jsessionid=IqrYZz4zccOYny+-xdBDEw**.node3?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG

Or do you recommend another brand. thnx

I'm located in the San Fernando valley, Los Angeles County area.
Small amplified antennas such as that are not likely to work very well at 21 miles. Get a real antenna. The broadcast towers for LA are located way up there on Mt. Wilson and, IIRC, the digital stations are all currently at UHF. If you are looking for an interim solution and have a window or upper floor with a clear view of the mountains to the north, try a Silver Sensor UHF antenna. Circuit City may have one under the Philips brand name for $25, model # PHDTV1.

If you are looking for a more permanent attic or roof mounted setup, the Channel Master (CM) 4221 4 Bay bowtie, CM 4228 8 Bay, or any number of medium range VHF/UHF antennas should do the job.

goldrich

01-29-07, 09:33 AM

Jhamps10,

You posted your need for assistance at the Indy/Terre Haute site, since Terre Haute is one of your closest TV markets (70-75 miles). Unfortunately, with the slight exception of MAYBE receiving WTHI-DT 24, you'll have to look at some other potential stations.

You do have several nearby PBS stations (UHF) to choose from, so at least one of those should be rather easy to receive. IMHO, after assessing other stations in your area, here are your best bets for the four main networks:

WSIL-DT 34 (3-1) ABC, Harrisburg, IL 200 degrees @ 76 miles (1000 kW, non-directional)
WEVV-DT 45 (44-1) CBS, Evansville, IN 136 degrees @ 75 miles (500 kW, non-directional)
WFIE-DT 46 (14-1) NBC, Evansville, IN 135 degrees @ 76 miles (250 kW, non-directional, best tower height @1017 ft. [height above average terrain])

Within a few weeks (fingers crossed), this station will be going full power with 1000 kW @ 896 ft. (HAAT). It will be using a directional antenna, but it doesn't cut the signal too much in your direction................
WTVW-DT 28 (7-1) Fox, Evansville, IN 126 degrees @ 76 miles

As mentioned above by cpcat and afiggatt, you are going to need a very good high gain antenna with a preamp and as much height as possible. I would recommend a stack, like in the picture from cpcat. I have a very similar setup (for receiving distant stations outside of Indianapolis) with the Triax Unix 100 antenna (pic attached). This antenna is very similar to the XG91 (also listed as the 91XG).

All of the stations I listed above will remain on UHF channels after Feb. 2009, so unless you are interested in receiving some VHF stations, like WNIN-DT, Evansville or WTHI-DT, Terre Haute after Feb. 2009, I'm not sure that you will need a VHF antenna. That depends on what stations you are interested in and what your reception capabilities are like.

Steve

justechn

01-29-07, 03:02 PM

I have been reading a lot of posts and I have gotten a lot of good information. I was hoping I could confirm my choices with you before I make a final decision. Here is the list from AntennaWeb. The coordinates of my house are:
Lat: 40.087787
Lon: -111.620134

* yellow - uhf KUEN-DT 9.1 PBS OGDEN UT 307° 47.3 36
* yellow - uhf KPNZ-DT 24 IND OGDEN UT TBD 309° 50.0 24
* yellow - uhf KTVX-DT 4.1 ABC SALT LAKE CITY UT 309° 50.0 40
* yellow - uhf KUED-DT 7.1 PBS SALT LAKE CITY UT 309° 50.0 42
* yellow - uhf KUCW-DT 30.1 CW OGDEN UT 309° 50.0 48
* yellow - uhf KUPX-DT 16.1 i PROVO UT 309° 49.6 29
* yellow - uhf KUTV-DT 2.1 CBS SALT LAKE CITY UT 309° 45.8 34
* yellow - uhf KJZZ-DT 14.1 MNT SALT LAKE CITY UT 309° 50.0 46
* yellow - uhf KBYU-DT 44.1 PBS PROVO UT 309° 50.0 44
* yellow - uhf KSL-DT 5.1 NBC SALT LAKE CITY UT 309° 50.0 38
* blue - uhf KSTU-DT 13.1 FOX SALT LAKE CITY UT 309° 50.0 28

It says I only need the smallest of MultiDirectional antennas, but I am about 50 miles from the nearest tower. I would like to get FOX but I would probably need an outdoor or attic antenna and that is not an option.

I was looking at the Philips PHDTV3 Indoor HDTV UHF/VHF antenna, but I am really not interested in VHF because all the digital channels are in the UHF band. Is this the best antenna? Is there a better UHF only antenna? When it says it is powered is that for both UHF and VHF?

If you need more info please let me know.

Thanks
Ryan

RubberToe

01-29-07, 04:11 PM

If it's a dead-end coax feed, the "electrical stuff" should be just a balun and maybe all you need to do is cut and crimp
on a F-type connector so you can attach an extender cable via female-female in-line connector.
Then you can buy a new wallplate with a coax connector....or simpy poke the cable through a simple hole-in-one wallplate.
I've seen them at our local Home Depot and R-S.

This is exactly the situation, and it is also just what we are planning on doing.

Thanks,
Robert

shakin cliches

01-29-07, 04:14 PM

Repost:
Hi everyone. I would love some insight on what kind of antenna to get.

Here are my numbers:
* red - uhf WLEX-DT 18.1 NBC LEXINGTON KY 122° 17.4 39
* red - vhf WKYT-DT 27.1 CBS LEXINGTON KY 122° 16.8 13
* red - vhf WDKY-DT 56.1 FOX DANVILLE KY 138° 27.0 4
* red - uhf WKON-DT 52.1 PBS OWENTON KY 349° 26.7 44
* blue - uhf WKLE-DT 46.1 PBS LEXINGTON KY 139° 26.9 42

Ideally, I would like to be able to pull it off with an indoor antenna, but if needed can mount an outdoor on the eastern side of my house.

Any input or ideas?

Thanks a bunch.

Update:

I've tried several indoor antennas with little to no luck. I'm going to have to go outdoor.

The wife is requesting that I don't get a monster 120"x110" aerial.

Getting WDKY (VHF-3) would be nice, but apparently it's virtually impossible around here.

Getting WKYT (VHF-13) is imperative. Is there a relatively small, less noticeable antenna I can mount next to the dish to get the digital channels?

Is the CM Sleathtenna any good?

Thanks again.

afiggatt

01-29-07, 09:53 PM

I have been reading a lot of posts and I have gotten a lot of good information. I was hoping I could confirm my choices with you before I make a final decision. Here is the list from AntennaWeb.
[snip]
It says I only need the smallest of MultiDirectional antennas, but I am about 50 miles from the nearest tower. I would like to get FOX but I would probably need an outdoor or attic antenna and that is not an option.

I was looking at the Philips PHDTV3 Indoor HDTV UHF/VHF antenna, but I am really not interested in VHF because all the digital channels are in the UHF band. Is this the best antenna? Is there a better UHF only antenna? When it says it is powered is that for both UHF and VHF?
Your house must be a ridge or high hill for antennaweb to come up with yellow at 50+ miles. All of your digital stations are currently on UHF. However, KSTU Fox 13 (28) will be switching it's digital broadcast to VHF 13 after the analog shutdown in 2009. All the other stations will be staying at UHF. So for the long run, you will need an antenna which can pick up VHF 13 which many UHF antennas will do.

Even with yellow from antennaweb, an indoor antenna at 50 miles is asking a lot. The Philips PHDTV3 is an antenna with a built-in amplifier IIRC, which is rather expensive for what it does. If you have a spot with a clear shot at 309 degree azimuth, give the ~$25 Philips PHDTV1 Silver Sensor or the PHDTV3 a shot if you can buy it locally and return it if it does not work. Normally at 50 miles, the Channel Master 4221 4 Bay or more often, the CM 4228 8 Bay mounted in the attic or on the roof would be the category of antenna that would be recommended.

HBIC

01-30-07, 12:53 PM

Note that with Antennaweb, you can click on the street-level map to re-center it and update the channel listings accordingly. With a bit of work, you can center it on your exact location (give or take a hundred feet or so). Or you can enter your address to give it a starting point that's close to your actual location, although I can understand why you might not want to do that.
i actually did use my exact address with the 23185 area code and it only showed those 2 channels...but I am very happy with what I am getting with my Sensor

exguitarplayer

01-30-07, 03:34 PM

igator99

01-30-07, 07:26 PM

Yes...it does!

I'm trying to get a Baton Rouge LouisianaNBC station. I live about 65 miles away and I can pull it in on occasion using the largest Radio Shack antenna. I pick up my local NOLA HD channels with no problem but the NOLA NBC station hasn't broadcast in HD since Katrina. I was thinking about buying the Radio Shack large UHF antenna and getting another of their top amps just for that antenna. Do you guys think this will work or can you suggest something better? THanks abunch!

afiggatt

01-30-07, 11:58 PM

Mustang1

01-30-07, 11:59 PM

Small amplified antennas such as that are not likely to work very well at 21 miles. Get a real antenna. The broadcast towers for LA are located way up there on Mt. Wilson and, IIRC, the digital stations are all currently at UHF. If you are looking for an interim solution and have a window or upper floor with a clear view of the mountains to the north, try a Silver Sensor UHF antenna. Circuit City may have one under the Philips brand name for $25, model # PHDTV1.

If you are looking for a more permanent attic or roof mounted setup, the Channel Master (CM) 4221 4 Bay bowtie, CM 4228 8 Bay, or any number of medium range VHF/UHF antennas should do the job.

Thnx, i ordered one online. :D

Btw, can the coax go directly to the hdtv set or does it need a receiver of some sort?? sorry im a newb at this. :(

Jhamps10

01-31-07, 12:31 AM

lordpookdai

01-31-07, 07:53 PM

hey! i'm new here and after reading quite a bit of this thread i decided it would probably be the best place to post.

My situation:

Dorm room (1st floor) around 10 minutes from trenton and im looking to get the philadelphia stations (from 31 or miles away at 251 degrees). Im using an HDTV wonder and the antenna that came with it. However, 251 degrees is not out my window but instead out the window across the hall (sorry for sounding so confusing). At this point i can't get any stations (most likely because im surrounded by concrete).

Is this a hopeless cause, or would an antenna with a preamp (such as a silver sensor) allow me to get the stations from 30 miles away? Thanks in advance for any help that can be thrown my way.

dhmcg

01-31-07, 10:20 PM

I'm trying to get a Baton Rouge LouisianaNBC station. I live about 65 miles away and I can pull it in on occasion using the largest Radio Shack antenna. I pick up my local NOLA HD channels with no problem but the NOLA NBC station hasn't broadcast in HD since Katrina. I was thinking about buying the Radio Shack large UHF antenna and getting another of their top amps just for that antenna. Do you guys think this will work or can you suggest something better? THanks abunch!

I live 43 miles from the New Orleans transmitters and 52 miles from the Baton Rouge transmitters. I installed the Channel Master 4228 and 7778. The antenna is on a 20' pole. It is aimed at New Orleans an approximately 135 deg. I pick up channels 2,4,4.1,8,8.1,9,12,12.1,18,20,20.1,22,23,26,26.1,27,27.1,27. 3,27.5, 28,32,33,33,1,38,38,1,44,44.1,44.2,47,49,49.1,49,4,54,54.1. The vhf analog is very poor but all digitals are clear. Some of the higher analog channels are fairly clear to clear. Checl the local HD forum for both Baton Rouge and New Orleans.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9413751#post9413751

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9430919#post9430919

Some people are stacking 2 4228's and a high quality combiner (not sure if this is the proper term) with a7777 or 7778 preamps.

Dan
Ponchatoula, La

afiggatt

01-31-07, 11:51 PM

Btw, can the coax go directly to the hdtv set or does it need a receiver of some sort?? sorry im a newb at this. :(
Since no one replied to this, does your HD TV have an digital ATSC tuner? If so, connect the coaxial cable to the RF input port, aim the antenna, and do a digital channel scan. You may have to repeat the scan a few times to find the best aim for the antenna.

holl_ands

02-01-07, 02:23 AM

The terrain database and propagation predictions algorithms have been changed in www.antennaweb.org
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0114/t.1014.html

So does this mean it will generate a more complete list of "receivable" stations.....

At least with RADIO MOBILE (and SPLAT!) we can see what the assumptions are...

Dan Kolton

02-01-07, 09:29 AM

Is this a hopeless cause, or would an antenna with a preamp (such as a silver sensor) allow me to get the stations from 30 miles away? Thanks in advance for any help that can be thrown my way.

The Silver Sensor isn't amplified, and I don't know whether it would work for you, but it might be worth a try. I bought mine from Amazon for about $25. I doubt that an amplifier would help. You can also buy from local Best Buy, Lowes or CC so it's easier to return if necessary.

lordpookdai

02-01-07, 09:51 AM

thanks for you help, i will most likely give that a try

muchium

02-01-07, 03:43 PM

Since you're gonna need as much help as possible--higher is better.
I would suggest higher gain CM-4228 (which also has gain in upper-VHF), a rotator
and the CM-7777 Preamp---which has more than enough gain to drive multiple RF Splitters.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try the CM-4228 and CM-7777 and see how that works.

Tim Lones

02-02-07, 04:47 PM

Hello:
I've asked some general antenna questions in the Cleveland Forum..I thought I'd put down what I'd like to get..I am in SW Canton Ohio..about 60 miles south of Cleveland and 45-50 miles southwest of Youngstown. Antennaweb says I should get these channels:

yellow - uhf WEAO 49 PBS AKRON OH 337° 23.2 49
* yellow - uhf WEAO-DT 50.1 PBS AKRON OH 337° 23.2 50
yellow - uhf WVPX 23 i AKRON OH 342° 20.8 23
* yellow - uhf WVPX-DT 59 i AKRON OH TBD 342° 20.9 59
red - uhf WNEO 45 PBS ALLIANCE OH 81° 27.1 45
* red - uhf WNEO-DT 46.1 PBS ALLIANCE OH 81° 27.1 46
red - uhf WOAC 67 SAH CANTON OH 17° 22.1 67
red - uhf WIVM-LP 52 IND CANTON OH 55° 9.8 52
red - uhf WDLI 17 TBN CANTON OH 67° 7.9 17
blue - vhf WTOV 9 NBC STEUBENVILLE OH 134° 51.8 9
blue - vhf WKYC 3 NBC CLEVELAND OH 348° 43.5 3
* blue - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 348° 43.5 2
blue - uhf WOIO 19 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 348° 43.7 19
blue - vhf WJW 8 FOX CLEVELAND OH 345° 42.5 8
* blue - uhf WOAC-DT 47.1 SAH CANTON OH 17° 22.1 47
blue - uhf WVIZ 25 PBS CLEVELAND OH 343° 41.6 25
blue - vhf WEWS 5 ABC CLEVELAND OH 346° 43.2 5
blue - uhf WUAB 43 MNT LORAIN OH 346° 43.6 43
blue - uhf WQHS 61 UNI Cleveland OH 347° 43.5 61
blue - uhf WBNX 55 CW AKRON OH 348° 43.4 55
* blue - uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON OH 348° 43.4 30
blue - uhf WKBN 27 CBS YOUNGSTOWN OH 73° 43.7 27
* violet - uhf WKBN-DT 27.1 CBS YOUNGSTOWN OH 73° 43.7 41
* violet - uhf WFMJ-DT 21.1 NBC YOUNGSTOWN OH 71° 44.7 20
* violet - uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland OH 347° 43.5 34
violet - vhf KDKA 2 CBS PITTSBURGH PA 113° 75.6 2
* violet - uhf WDLI-DT 39.1 TBN CANTON OH 339° 20.6 39
violet - vhf WTRF 7 CBS WHEELING WV 153° 61.2 7
violet - uhf WOUC 44 PBS CAMBRIDGE OH 180° 48.8 44

All I can do at this point is either an indoor antenna or a clip on the dish type..I know my best shot is at the Yellow and Red listings. Hoping for some of the blue..What would be the best antenna for my situation?..And would an amplified antenna help?..Thanks for any responses..

TVSaurus

02-03-07, 12:38 AM

holl_ands

02-03-07, 03:52 AM

TVSaurus

02-03-07, 08:47 AM

What's your zipcode---and nearby cross-streets if you don't mind...

39560

hwy 90 & Island View

MAX HD

02-03-07, 09:09 AM

Couldn't find a CM7777 in stock anywhere so I bought a 7778 instead which is to replace my Radio Shack amp. I was hoping for better gain to get some distant signals.

Hooked it up today and wondered if I need to set it for the combined UHF/VHF or slit? Left it in the default settings for now. So far, I don't have any signal.

Think I wasted my money on the 7778 when I should have waited for the 7777?

I've used both preamps and can't tell much difference between the two.

I checked your zip and you need a substantial install.You need to get that 4228 up around 40-50ft on a sturdy guyed mast or tower.As far as a CBS station,WWL @61mi should be your best bet with their 1000ft tower with omni radiation.Not sure what their current status is though.Your other CBS is even farther away on a 6-700ft tower and running on a construction permit.

TVSaurus

02-03-07, 09:18 AM

I've used both preamps and can't tell much difference between the two.

I checked your zip and you need a substantial install.You need to get that 4228 up around 40-50ft on a sturdy guyed mast or tower.As far as a CBS station,WWL @61mi should be your best bet with their 1000ft tower with omni radiation.Not sure what their current status is though.Your other CBS is even farther away on a 6-700ft tower and running on a construction permit.

With the RS preamp I could get WWL fairly well along with Fox8 but did have some occasional dropouts. I was thinking the CM would solve that problem. But after installing the CM I can't get anything. Its like I didn't install it correctly. On the RS unit I can see the red light on whereas this unit there is no indication. So should I use the combined input jack?

I may just go back to the other unit if needed.

MAX HD

02-03-07, 12:12 PM

With the RS preamp I could get WWL fairly well along with Fox8 but did have some occasional dropouts. I was thinking the CM would solve that problem. But after installing the CM I can't get anything. Its like I didn't install it correctly. On the RS unit I can see the red light on whereas this unit there is no indication. So should I use the combined input jack?

I may just go back to the other unit if needed.

Use UHF/combined input and set the internal switch to combined.If you unplug the power supply signals will be severely degraded.Good way to tell if it's working.

Fringe distant signals will vary substantially with the weather/seasonal changes.This is probably what you're experiencing.

zenbig42

02-03-07, 01:21 PM

Greetings, new here. I live in area where problems are like deep-fringe, but I think mountains are problem, not distance.

My basic question is what antenna (UHF) or set-up do you think is best for dealing with multi-path in weak signal area?

I haven't been able to get any advice on my local thread. Seems everyone there is on comcast and/or not challenged by OTA.

Here's my situation:
Zip 05674, (Latitude = 44.1064, Longitude = -72.8914) in the mountains, elev 1600'. 29 miles from transmitters. All digital channels I want are co-located on Mt. Mansfield (at 3800' elev). System: samsung 4092 tv, dish vip622 receiver, antenna radio shack vu90-xr, 10' mast on roof ridge, 40 feet above ground, channel master 7778 pre-amp (using combined UHF/VHF input, yes I tried checking/switching the internal switch), rg6 (80', properly grounded, direct to tv tuner). We have DishNetwork, which carries locals, but not in HD. (and they are the worst of any of the SD channels!). Four local channels are now broadcasting OTA HD in digital (at Mt. Mansfield).

Antennaweb says I should only get one analog channel (wcax ch3). this one comes in fine, with some minimal ghosting, but of course I'm looking for the digital signals. I've tried a number of different antennas with varying results. I can reliably get one channel (wvny-dt on ch13-vhf), though I can most often lock on the 3 other digital channels (all on UHF 14, 32, 53), but the signal strength (using on-screen samsung meter) fluctuates (usually 3-4 bars out of 10) and I get frequent pixelation and dropouts so the channels are unwatchable for 3/4 of the time, I get the rare moments or hours when I can direct the antenna (very slight aiming adjustment) and get to watch the channel I want for a bit. Again, the exception is the my sole VHF digital channel 13 wvny which is solid (but still only 3-4 strength). I have the antenna hooked directly to the TV ant input, as the samsung tuner deals with the weak signals I have much better. the dish vip622 doesn't recognize (with a scan) any of the other channels other than the ch13 wvny.

I've also tried these antennas: CM 4228, the AntennasDirect 43XG, and the larger Radio Shack vu-190. But none have been able to improve my results. I have used lots of patience and plenty of experimentation (with and with out pre-amp for each; careful aiming, adjusting both the height of the antenna and the physical location on the roof). I was really surpised that I actually get better reception (on uhf channels) with the radio shack vu90xr than with the CM 4228, b/c the 4228 is recommended in so many places online, in discussion forums, and hdtvprimer as the solution for both fringe and multipath problems.

Even though my antenna is high, the hill I am on slopes gently up in the direction of the towers (adding yet another obstruction) and the trees are higher (nearest at 50' and they are spruce with needles all year). There are numerous mountains that block line-of-sight to towers. I thought the nearby trees might be the problem, but then I tried the CM 4228 near the top of one of these spruce trees up about 60' off ground - nothing in front of the antenna (yeah, my wife that experiment...LOL!) in calm clear weather and did not get any improvement with this installation over the same antenna on the roof. In the tree, I had a clear view (no trees) of the nearest horizon, the top of my local hill, about 1000' feet away, my rg6 run was about 200' total to tv in this set-up.

The most frustrating part is that I KNOW we have some signal here, but its either just too weak, too much multipath, or not the right antenna (or all the above!) I am thinking about trying next the XG91 or CM 3023 (same as CM 4248) antenna. I am also considering the 16-bay CM 4228 solution (on hdtvprimer website) or a stack of 2 XG91's. I realize nothing may work any better and that I'm SOL in my area (or have to live with just one OTA HD channel), but any advice or recommendations about this situation would be greatly appreciated.