The Official AVS Antenna Topic! [Text View] - Page 23

WillieAntenna

02-03-07, 03:44 PM

zenbig42

02-03-07, 04:05 PM

Thanks. I have talked with several of the different stations engineers on my challenges. will keep trying!

Mustang1

02-03-07, 07:59 PM

Since no one replied to this, does your HD TV have an digital ATSC tuner? If so, connect the coaxial cable to the RF input port, aim the antenna, and do a digital channel scan. You may have to repeat the scan a few times to find the best aim for the antenna.

http://www.dealtime.com/xPF-Mitsubishi-WD-65732~r-1~CLT-INTR~RFR-www.google.com

yes it has a tuner. i tried today, and im receiving static on the channels, on channel 2 it shows the program but there is still some heavy rain, I mounted an squareshooter 2000 onto a pole about 4 feet high, but im still receiving bad reception. the Coax cable is connected to the power splitter it came with and then connected to the tv coax. The channels are only 20 miles away from me, but still cannot produce clear picture. Unless im pointed it the wrong way. :(

Edit: its on the roof of my house.

zip code is 91331 in Ca http://www.antennaweb.org
I was planning to use this for the super bowl :(

Edit2: woohoo.. holy crap.. :D i set up the tv, it was the tv this whole time, after i set up woo it works perfect with the HD channels.. :D im watching the laker game right now it looks amazing! :D Thnx you so much!

hlg1951

02-03-07, 09:54 PM

I just made the antenna in this article and put on the floor in the bedroom. It is receiving better than the Phillips MANT940 I bought. I am using the amplifier from the Phillips though. Sorry, had to remove the rest of this because it would not let me post it. You can figure out where to put the dots.

uhfhdtvantenna blogspot c o m

I will put it in the attic tomorrow and the reception should max out. Channels that were at about 30% are now in 60-70% range. I am about 35 miles from antennas in DFW area, north of Dallas. The only channel I do not get is channel 8 which uses the VHF channel 9 for their DT signal. I can pick them up good on my scanner discone antenna which is outside. I will have to figure out how to combine the signals from the two antennas so I can also get channel 8.

Actually the discone antenna picks up all channels up to about 33. Not bad, but I want the channels above that also.

MAX HD

02-03-07, 11:44 PM

DanKurts

02-04-07, 03:55 AM

Greetings, new here. I live in area where problems are like deep-fringe, but I think mountains are problem, not distance.

My basic question is what antenna (UHF) or set-up do you think is best for dealing with multi-path in weak signal area?

I haven't been able to get any advice on my local thread. Seems everyone there is on comcast and/or not challenged by OTA.

Here's my situation:
Zip 05674, (Latitude = 44.1064, Longitude = -72.8914) in the mountains, elev 1600'. 29 miles from transmitters. All digital channels I want are co-located on Mt. Mansfield (at 3800' elev). System: samsung 4092 tv, dish vip622 receiver, antenna radio shack vu90-xr, 10' mast on roof ridge, 40 feet above ground, channel master 7778 pre-amp (using combined UHF/VHF input, yes I tried checking/switching the internal switch), rg6 (80', properly grounded, direct to tv tuner). We have DishNetwork, which carries locals, but not in HD. (and they are the worst of any of the SD channels!). Four local channels are now broadcasting OTA HD in digital (at Mt. Mansfield).

Antennaweb says I should only get one analog channel (wcax ch3). this one comes in fine, with some minimal ghosting, but of course I'm looking for the digital signals. I've tried a number of different antennas with varying results. I can reliably get one channel (wvny-dt on ch13-vhf), though I can most often lock on the 3 other digital channels (all on UHF 14, 32, 53), but the signal strength (using on-screen samsung meter) fluctuates (usually 3-4 bars out of 10) and I get frequent pixelation and dropouts so the channels are unwatchable for 3/4 of the time, I get the rare moments or hours when I can direct the antenna (very slight aiming adjustment) and get to watch the channel I want for a bit. Again, the exception is the my sole VHF digital channel 13 wvny which is solid (but still only 3-4 strength). I have the antenna hooked directly to the TV ant input, as the samsung tuner deals with the weak signals I have much better. the dish vip622 doesn't recognize (with a scan) any of the other channels other than the ch13 wvny.

I've also tried these antennas: CM 4228, the AntennasDirect 43XG, and the larger Radio Shack vu-190. But none have been able to improve my results. I have used lots of patience and plenty of experimentation (with and with out pre-amp for each; careful aiming, adjusting both the height of the antenna and the physical location on the roof). I was really surpised that I actually get better reception (on uhf channels) with the radio shack vu90xr than with the CM 4228, b/c the 4228 is recommended in so many places online, in discussion forums, and hdtvprimer as the solution for both fringe and multipath problems.

Even though my antenna is high, the hill I am on slopes gently up in the direction of the towers (adding yet another obstruction) and the trees are higher (nearest at 50' and they are spruce with needles all year). There are numerous mountains that block line-of-sight to towers. I thought the nearby trees might be the problem, but then I tried the CM 4228 near the top of one of these spruce trees up about 60' off ground - nothing in front of the antenna (yeah, my wife that experiment...LOL!) in calm clear weather and did not get any improvement with this installation over the same antenna on the roof. In the tree, I had a clear view (no trees) of the nearest horizon, the top of my local hill, about 1000' feet away, my rg6 run was about 200' total to tv in this set-up.

The most frustrating part is that I KNOW we have some signal here, but its either just too weak, too much multipath, or not the right antenna (or all the above!) I am thinking about trying next the XG91 or CM 3023 (same as CM 4248) antenna. I am also considering the 16-bay CM 4228 solution (on hdtvprimer website) or a stack of 2 XG91's. I realize nothing may work any better and that I'm SOL in my area (or have to live with just one OTA HD channel), but any advice or recommendations about this situation would be greatly appreciated.

zenbig42
Well, you have several things you're fighting.

My topo program's not ultra accurate, but pretty close most of the time. It shows your house as about 500ft up the hill on S. Hollow Road, where it goes basically north/south, from the turn at the bottom, and you're on the east side of the road. At that point it says your elevation is 1565ft. The top of the hill is 1780ft, and about 2300 ft north, and just a hair east, where the signal crosses it. Normally, 200ft of hill that far away is not a big deal. That's why WCAX comes in okay. It's transmitting on ch53 digital with 628kw. That's pretty good power over that distance of only 29.6 miles. WVNY ch 13 is a whimp. It only has 10kw of power. Granted, you don't need as much power in the VHF range. Normally I would expect it to be around 200 to 300kw. They're running on fumes. Throw in a hill, and trees over a 1/4 mile that add another 50ft to that hilltop to soak what's left, and you can barely smell the fumes! WETK ch 32 is also very weak. It's analog signal on ch33 has 1350kw, nice and hot, but it's digital ch32 is only 90kw, not even 10% of the analog. The simple fact that you got no better going up on the treetop shows how weak it is. The preamp should have more than made up for the 200ft of RG6.
Then there's another factor to understand. The actual analog video carrier is only about a half mhz wide, digital is 6 mhz wide. And, it ALL has to get there within about 5 to 6db in strength, or the decoder just can't lock in on it. Trees are great at chopping up that fat signal. Multipath is when you have strong signal bouncing off of things. You have MultiBlocking! Wide angle antennas like the 4228 do have good gain, but they pickup everything. Yagis are very narrow, and will allow you to thread the needle through the trees. That's partly why the RatShack worked better. It has a yagi on the front for UHF, and it's VHF design is fairly narrow. To get good UHF gain requires big yagis and stacked. Wait, it gets worse. When you stack them, they get real "peaky", meaning their gain gets slightly better, but over a narrower range of frequencies. Since you're trying to get ch32 to 53, that's a pretty wide range. Granted, 53 is hot and could live with less antenna, you might still have problems. Never was able to find what/where ch14 was, but that's way down the frequency scale from ch53, more problems. My experience with stacking yagis has been a lot of work for very little gain. Yes, it can work, but frankly, with my 35 years of experience at this, there's no way I would want to attempt stacking with out my meter. You just don't know what you're fighting, and when you're winning or loosing. The "meter" you see on you're TV or sat box is really measuring signal to noise ratio. Once you get above the minimums for the decoder to work, you could see very high readings, yet be actually hanging on by your fingernails. It's hard to tell what's really going on because small improvements in reception will still read the same.

I've e-mailed you some screen shots of my topo program showing what the hills look like in relation to your reception path. It will explain how to read it.

I never say never, but it looks pretty bad. Throw crazy money at it, and get approval from the FCC for a 250ft tower to clear your hill, some ultra low noise preamps, low loss cable, etc, and you could make it work. Not realistic for you, but I've done a couple for small communities and it works.

Those other antennas you mentioned, the XG91, or similar Blake style UHF yagis all claim crazy numbers, but in the real world, I didn't see it. I've tried many of them against other yagis, while doing installs, to see if there's a better mousetrap. Not impressed. I use the 4248 for a big yagi 95% of the time, and the Antennacraft MXU59 for the few times the 4248 gets fussy at some locations. Most of these people on the forums that claim brand A or B is the best double-throwdown-slamma-jamma out there, simply used one, and it worked. They probably could've gotten by with much less, just didn't know it. I have used only two 4228's in the last 10 years of HD installs. I use the 4221 instead. Far more forgiving. If I need gain, a 7775 preamp. We don't have VHF HD out here in Seattle, but we do have lots of hills and heavy Fir trees, far worse than Pine. Our HD frequencies range from ch18 to 48 for the main channels. We have three different main sites, so it can get tricky for direction and antenna type to get all with one. You're lucky, in that they're all one direction. Sadly, that's about the only good thing you have going.

Wish I could say something better. If you have cable, that may be the only choice.

There are two things I can suggest.
One is that Samsung now has a really good over air tuner for HD only. It's only $179 at Circuit City or Best Buy. I tried one at several really tough locations, including my house, and it did amazing things with really ugly, weak signals. You could try one out, if it doesn't work, return it. It's about the most sensitive and selective tuner I've seen in years. It's brand new
http://www.samsung.com/Products/DigitalSetTopBox/HDTVTuners/DTB_H260FXAA.asp

If that doesn't do it, nothing will.
Now here's the neat part. It's also a QAM tuner, which means it will decode unscrambled cable. The cable companies are required to not only carry all your local channels in analog, but your HD channels as well. If you have a TV with a QAM tuner built in, or it's Cable Card ready, you can just hook up cable and you have the locals in HD. Here we have Comcast. Basic cable service is $13/mo. You don't need to pay extra for the digital cable box unless you want the other cable HD channels, like ESPN, Showtime, HBO, etc. If they tell you you have to have the basic package for $40/mo or so, that's BS. If you ask for it, they have to give it to you. You can't watch the QAM channels without the box, but the little Samsung tuner will decode it for you. All this is assuming the local cable company has your local HD channels. At least you could watch local HD for minimum bucks.
If you have questions, fire away. Or call me. I'll send my phone number in the e-mail. I'll be home Sunday doing office work (No, I'm not watching the Stupid Bowl. Our Sea-Chickens gave away our chance this year!)

Last, I would give you an A for effort. You're not in the know about a lot of this stuff, obviously, but you did do your homework and research, and accomplished a lot with what you had. The results weren't an A, but now you know why.
Big smile!

Dan

cpcat

02-04-07, 08:37 AM

Thanks. I have talked with several of the different stations engineers on my challenges. will keep trying!

I'd echo the suggestion of trying different heights on the mast. I live in fairly mountainous terrain and I actually have a "hot spot" around 6-8 ft. above my roofline. Higher than that point and the signal drops off significantly. You might also consider using a variable attenuator at the receiver's input. Sometimes you can attenuate the reflected signal enough to allow a lock on the direct one.

There have been promising reports on the new samsung tuner. That would be another consideration. Make sure you are allowed the option for return and I guess there's little or no risk to trying it.

Other than that, assuming you don't want to consider a tower and a significant increase in height, you are left with the option of horizontal stacking two yagi/corner reflectors like the xg91. The advantage stacking has with dealing with multipath is narrow beamwidth. Up to a point, the wider the spacing the narrower the beamwidth. Don't be afraid to experiment with fairly wide distances up to 60 inches or so. For very weak signals, you need a low loss combiner. However, in your situation a splitter used in reverse would probably work fine. You can do this on the same mast with a vhf antenna mounted underneath if you want, just allow ample spacing between the vhf and uhf sections on the mast. This means around 48 inches for ch. 7-13, 60 inches for 2-6.

Good luck.

Neil L

02-04-07, 10:41 AM

The cable companies are required to not only carry all your local channels in analog, but your HD channels as well. This seems to be a common missunderstanding around here.
If you have a TV with a QAM tuner built in, or it's Cable Card ready, you can just hook up cable and you have the locals in HD. You don't need to pay extra for the digital cable box unless you want the other cable HD channels, like ESPN, Showtime, HBO, etc. This is becoming increasingly rare it seems. My provider has all digital channels encrypted, including local OTA HD stations. In fact, reports are coming in from various cities around the country where this is the case. So the antenna solution is becoming even more popular than ever in many places.

DanKurts

02-04-07, 11:01 AM

This seems to be a common missunderstanding around here. This is becoming increasingly rare it seems. My provider has all digital channels encrypted, including local OTA HD stations. In fact, reports are coming in from various cities around the country where this is the case. So the antenna solution is becoming even more popular than ever in many places.

Neil L
Sorry to hear the cable companies are doing more encryption. In our area, they are required to carry the locals, analog and HD. They obviously could encrypt the HD portion, but have chosen not to. There are many other digital channels unencrypted, but are the public channels for the various cities and government affairs. They even allow the Music Choice channels to come through.
And I'm NOT sorry the antenna solution is popular. Keeps me busy!
Dan

Bozzmonster

02-04-07, 12:28 PM

Was wondering if there's any input out there. I feel pretty lucky that I live in a fairly flat area in SE Michigan. Plus, my overall elevation is about 200 feet above the general area, but there is a slight rise to my SE in the direction of Detroit. So, I get a pretty good selection of stations. I have two issues:

The stations I get are in multiple directions from three metro areas (Detroit, Bay City/Saginaw/Flint and Lansing, MI.) Multipath isn't a huge issue, but there are trees moderately close by. It is a bigger issue when foliage is on the trees. What are some good suggestions on a trim sized outdoor antenna that might be visible, but is discreet?

Here is a listing of stations. Most of these I can get in with a UHF element I pulled from a Terk 'Silver Sensor' lookalike antenna with a preamp indoors. I have it wall-mounted to a 2 ft piece of wood that is hinged in two locations so I can move it around about a 270 degree arc. Works really well, and I can get the yellow and green stations with no issue. The reds and beyond are a bit iffy. The violet WKBD actually comes in more like one of the 'red' stations. WADL is a no-show, but I really don't care about it.

However, as of now I have to walk to one end of the house, aim the antenna, and walk back to the living room. As the living room is near my PC and other equipment, RF really seems to do a number on reception, so I can't locate there. Whole thing is hooked to the set with RG-6 cable. Thanks for the input!

Zip 48442

yellow - WLNS-DT 6.1 CBS LANSING MI 264° 39.3 59
yellow - uhf WFUM-DT 28.1 PBS FLINT MI 59° 10.1 52
yellow - uhf WDIV-DT 4.1 NBC DETROIT MI 143° 30.9 45
yellow - uhf WAQP-DT 49.1 TBN SAGINAW MI TBD 329° 35.9 48
yellow - uhf WJRT-DT 12.1 ABC FLINT MI 329° 36.5 36
yellow - uhf WSMH-DT 16.1 FOX FLINT MI 329° 35.9 16
green - uhf WEYI-DT 25.1 NBC SAGINAW MI 356° 28.6 30
green - uhf WNEM-DT 12.5 CBS BAY CITY MI 353° 47.0 22
lt green - uhf WDCQ-DT 15.1 PBS BAD AXE MI 4° 50.6 15
red - uhf WJBK-DT 2.1 FOX DETROIT MI 146° 31.7 58
red - uhf WMYD-DT 20.1 MNT DETROIT MI 144° 33.7 21
red - uhf WKAR-DT 23.1 PBS EAST LANSING MI 266° 40.9 55
red - uhf WPXD-DT 31.1 i ANN ARBOR MI 224° 37.8 33
red - uhf WTVS-DT 56.1 PBS DETROIT MI 144° 33.7 43
red - uhf WXYZ-DT 7.1 ABC DETROIT MI 148° 30.0 41
red - uhf WWJ-DT 62.1 CBS DETROIT MI 144° 33.7 44
violet - uhf WKBD-DT 50.1 CW DETROIT MI 152° 27.4 14
violet - uhf WADL-DT 39.1 IND MOUNT CLEMENS MI 122° 41.1 39

Joshua2639

02-04-07, 12:46 PM

Hello,

I think I understand Whats going on but I am looking for any advice.

Here is my data from antenna web:

* yellow - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 32
yellow - uhf WUCW 23 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 23
yellow - vhf KARE 11 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 11
* yellow - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 35
yellow - uhf WFTC 29 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 133° 18.8 29
* yellow - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 MNT MINNEAPOLIS MN 133° 18.8 21
yellow - uhf KSTC 45 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 45
* yellow - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 44
* yellow - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 134° 18.0 50
* yellow - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 133° 18.8 34
* yellow - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 133° 18.8 16
yellow - uhf KPXM 41 i ST. CLOUD MN 300° 17.7 41
* yellow - uhf KPXM-DT 41.1 i ST. CLOUD MN 300° 17.7 40
yellow - vhf KMSP 9 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 133° 18.8 9
* yellow - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 133° 18.8 26
green - uhf KTCI 17 PBS ST. PAUL MN 133° 18.8 17
green - vhf KTCA 2 PBS ST. PAUL MN 133° 18.8 2
green - vhf KSTP 5 ABC ST. PAUL MN 134° 18.0 5
green - vhf WCCO 4 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 4
lt green - uhf WDMI-LP 62 DAY MINNEAPOLIS MN 161° 19.9 62
lt green - uhf K58BS 58 TBN MINNEAPOLIS MN 161° 19.9 58
* red - uhf WUCW-DT 23.1 CW MINNEAPOLIS MN 134° 18.0 22

Looks to me like everything I need is 133-134 degrees and about 18miles away. No big hills or anything else like that. The chart says I should get a small multidirectional antenna. Is bigger always better like the first post on this thread 2+ years ago said? Or will I get good results with a small one? Also, I would prefer to put the antenna in the attic. I have a 2 story house, with asphalt shingles, with 1/2 OSB. Does that matter? Will I have problems in the attic versus on the roof? I would prefer to stay off the roof because I have alot of high winds at my place with the community pond in the back.

I have assured my wife I know what I am doing so I have just one chance to get this right.

Also, One more question. I want to be able to run a cable to hook up all tv through out the house. Will this need an amplified antenna? I have Amplifiers from the Cable company but they are in line before the spliter, not with the antenna.

Thanks for any help,

Josh

zenbig42

02-04-07, 01:03 PM

zenbig42
Well, you have several things you're fighting.....(And the rest)

Last, I would give you an A for effort. You're not in the know about a lot of this stuff, obviously, but you did do your homework and research, and accomplished a lot with what you had. The results weren't an A, but now you know why.
Big smile!

Dan

Hey, thanks for all the time you took to analyze my spot. I agree...MultiBlocking! First time I heard that term. Besides my hill, there are a number of other mountains that block the direct line of sight btw here an transmitters (even though they are on top of VT's highest peak!)

I will continue to experiement with the antenna placement (height, etc) when the weather's a little warmer (near zero F here!). I did get the CM 4248 yagi to experiment with. All the same principles on installation apply, I assume? Good thoughts on stacking. Not sure I want to throw that much $ at it with the possibilty of return being questionable...but the again I love to try to solve tough problems. Tower is out of question too. Fortuately, some good online sources that will let you return antennas that haven't worked for me have saved me a lot of $.

As for cable..our company is far behind. No HDTV, and no current plans to offer it before 2009. That's why we switched to Dish when we got new TV. The cable is a local company Waitsfield Cable that has thrown all their resources at DSL broadband internet (....the future of HD content...???) which for our rural area is amazing.... 6 mb down/2 mb up and 100% coverage in our area. Wish I could get the cable channels that way!

Couple of questions on the tuner: I have the Samsung TV model 4092 LCD with ATSC tuner. QAM is different? Does this Samsung have it? The TV's tuner definitely works much better than the DishNetwork Vip622 tuner...which won't lock on anything except for wvny (VHF ch13). I have the antenna hooked directly to the TV (with pre-amp set-up of course) which gets me a lock on the digital ch. most of the time (but mostly unwatchable due to dropouts except wvny-always good and wcax-sometimes good).

Give you a call to say thanks, chat a few minutes if you email #. I will be watching the stupid bowl! Displaced and disgruntled Giants fan here.

zenbig42

02-04-07, 01:15 PM

Other than that, assuming you don't want to consider a tower and a significant increase in height, you are left with the option of horizontal stacking two yagi/corner reflectors like the xg91. The advantage stacking has with dealing with multipath is narrow beamwidth. Up to a point, the wider the spacing the narrower the beamwidth. Don't be afraid to experiment with fairly wide distances up to 60 inches or so.

Good luck.

Thanks for the advice cpcat.
Did you custom make the booms and mount for your stack? Or off the shelf? Nice setup, and great pictures.....some wife think these are ugly....I say beautiful!
zenbig42

cpcat

02-04-07, 01:46 PM

Thanks for the advice cpcat.
Did you custom make the booms and mount for your stack? Or off the shelf? Nice setup, and great pictures.....some wife think these are ugly....I say beautiful!
zenbig42

Fiberglass tubes/rods: http://www.mgs4u.com/

I use 1.25 inch tubes with 1 inch tubes stuffed inside to increase stiffness. It's only necessary to use fiberglass for parts which are horizontal and at a right angle to the oncoming signal.

The main attachment to the vertical rotor mast is via the Blonder Tongue BTY-MC stacking clamp. The secondary attachments to the fiberglass tubes are via modified CM attic mounts. The secondary attachments don't see as much stress.
Initially, I used the same attic mount mod for the main attachment to the rotor mast. In the pic you can see the wear/tear this created on the mount.

The bty-mc is expensive but is stainless steel and very sturdy/robust.

germ79

02-04-07, 05:15 PM

Hello all! I just signed up for satellite and will need to get an antenna for local HD channels. I went to the site recommended, but I'm not sure I understand completely what it is saying.

Here is a screen shot of what my results were:

http://thumb2.webshots.net/t/58/158/1/60/53/2253160530030767902fCsmrE_th.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2253160530030767902fCsmrE)

Does this mean a small indoor antenna will suffice?

Thanks so much!

Jeremy

afiggatt

02-04-07, 05:50 PM

Here is my data from antenna web:
[snip]
Looks to me like everything I need is 133-134 degrees and about 18miles away. No big hills or anything else like that. The chart says I should get a small multidirectional antenna. Is bigger always better like the first post on this thread 2+ years ago said? Or will I get good results with a small one? Also, I would prefer to put the antenna in the attic. I have a 2 story house, with asphalt shingles, with 1/2 OSB. Does that matter? Will I have problems in the attic versus on the roof? I would prefer to stay off the roof because I have alot of high winds at my place with the community pond in the back.

Also, One more question. I want to be able to run a cable to hook up all tv through out the house. Will this need an amplified antenna? I have Amplifiers from the Cable company but they are in line before the spliter, not with the antenna.
Are you interested in only the digital stations or do you need to receive the analog stations as well? All of your digital stations are currently broadcasting on UHF (last number on each row). However, KMSP-DT Fox 9 (DT=26), will switch it's digital broadcast to upper VHF 9 in 2009 after the analog shutdown. So for the near future, you need only a UHF antenna, but for 2009, you will need an antenna setup which can handle UHF and upper VHF.

Provided you attic does not have a radiant barrier lining, an antenna in the attic should work for only 18 miles. Since all of your stations are yellow, except for WUCW-TV CW 23 and that station may be at full power, an indoor antenna might work. But an attic mount is better than indoor. There are a lot of antennas that should do the job. A channel master 4221 4 Bay fits into an attic fairly well and should pick up all your UHF stations. Or a standard medium range VHF/UHF antenna should do. I would put up the antenna without a pre-amp to see if you can get all the stations. You can add a pre-amp or distribution amp later if it turns out to be needed.

Tower Guy

02-04-07, 08:10 PM

DanKurts

02-05-07, 02:54 AM

Hey, thanks for all the time you took to analyze my spot. I agree...MultiBlocking! First time I heard that term. Besides my hill, there are a number of other mountains that block the direct line of sight btw here an transmitters (even though they are on top of VT's highest peak!)

I will continue to experiement with the antenna placement (height, etc) when the weather's a little warmer (near zero F here!). I did get the CM 4248 yagi to experiment with. All the same principles on installation apply, I assume? Good thoughts on stacking. Not sure I want to throw that much $ at it with the possibilty of return being questionable...but the again I love to try to solve tough problems. Tower is out of question too. Fortuately, some good online sources that will let you return antennas that haven't worked for me have saved me a lot of $.

As for cable..our company is far behind. No HDTV, and no current plans to offer it before 2009. That's why we switched to Dish when we got new TV. The cable is a local company Waitsfield Cable that has thrown all their resources at DSL broadband internet (....the future of HD content...???) which for our rural area is amazing.... 6 mb down/2 mb up and 100% coverage in our area. Wish I could get the cable channels that way!

Couple of questions on the tuner: I have the Samsung TV model 4092 LCD with ATSC tuner. QAM is different? Does this Samsung have it? The TV's tuner definitely works much better than the DishNetwork Vip622 tuner...which won't lock on anything except for wvny (VHF ch13). I have the antenna hooked directly to the TV (with pre-amp set-up of course) which gets me a lock on the digital ch. most of the time (but mostly unwatchable due to dropouts except wvny-always good and wcax-sometimes good).

Give you a call to say thanks, chat a few minutes if you email #. I will be watching the stupid bowl! Displaced and disgruntled Giants fan here.

zenbig42
Send me a note at dankurts@comcast.net and I'll send you the pictures of the signal path and hills. The file's too big for this forum. It will make more sense when you see it in 3D.
There's only one hill in your way, the top of the hill just north of you. After that it's line of sight.

The only install principal you may not be aware of is keeping the balun wires neat and tidy, away from the boom, and not twisted together. Preferably the same shape on each lead, too. Beyond that, you've already had some success, so you must be doing the rest close enough to right. Here's a good site for info on stacking, as well as a lot of other data.
http://kyes.info/antenna/stacking.html
cpkat has built a great mount setup for stacking and playing with various permutations. You most likely won't need a rotor. Just button it down enough that you can still turn it a little. Tilting the nose upwards a few degrees may help a little, but tweak everything dead level first. When you've maxed it, then play with tilt. Another key is to keep the two antennas (or four) as identical
as possible in cable lengths to the combiner(splitter), directions parallel, etc.
And then there's patience. Don't whip the antenna around quickly. The decoders need a few seconds on the uglier signals to lock in. Move it a little, wait, move, wait....

ATSC is the over the air method of encoding the signals for the carrier. QAM is the method cable companies use. If your TV has a "cable card ready" notation, or small slot on the back for what looks like a PCMCIA card, then it has the QAM tuner/decoder. However, since your cable company is not up to speed, it doesn't make much difference.

The little Samsung 260 tuner is a 5th generation decoder. That's why I mentioned it. It's hands down the best one I've seen. It might be able to get you that extra edge. Far better than the ones in the Samsung TV's out now, or any other's.

To give you an example, I have one PBS station that's in the opposite direction from all the others I receive. My antenna is a 4221, mounted on the side of my house, no preamp. The backplane, or screen, is designed to reject signals from the back side. The PBS station is about 8 miles away. I also have a 300ft high hill in that direction, about a half mile away. And, like your weak stations, this one is ch27 and only has 6kw of power. When I hook up my meter, it shows nothing. To summarize, that's a whimpy transmitter, hiding behind a hill, and the signal is also blocked by my house, my neighbors house, and the backplane of the antenna.
And it works! The tuner has a "strength indicator" that shows ten bars for a max signal. Ch27 comes in at only 2 bars, but it's rock solid. That's just unbelievable.
It performed similarly in 2 other ugly locations. That doesn't mean it will work everywhere, but looks very promising. I have owned or tried about every tuner out there at my house, at one time or other, over the last ten years we've had HD here. None would do that. My other PBS station signal, from the normal direction for my antenna, is pretty chopped up by trees right behind my house. I don't watch that station, but try it every now and then, and it occasionally comes in, but readings bounce all over the map on my Zenith/LG 3200, which is an above average tuner.
The Samsung locks it in at ten bars.

The only other thing I've seen that's close is the PC tuner V-box 3560. I've had about ten of them on different installs, in impossible locations, again, when my meter wouldn't even read some of the channels, (that's below -30db) and they all worked. Obviously, your mileage may vary.

I mention all this because the Samsung might just level the playing field for you. If you can wrangle one for a test, with a return policy, it could save you a whole lot of grief.

Must admit, I watched the last 5 minutes of the bowl game, to see if the Bears got whooped. Excellent!

Send me an e-mail.
Dan

Joshua2639

02-05-07, 08:01 AM

ZenithPete

02-05-07, 01:08 PM

afiggatt

02-05-07, 02:57 PM

Thanks for the advice Afiggatt. I will need both the Hd and Analog channels so I will stick with the medium uhf/vhf antenna. I have read quite a few post of yours and you seem to mention Channel Master in most of them. I will order from warren electronics; I just could use a hand deciding which one. Here are the two am looking at. Please let me know if one is better than another or if there is a different one you would suggest.

3018
3677

Or would I be better off installing the 4 bay and installing another antenna for the VHF?
If you want to get the low VHF analog stations, the Winegard conventional VHF/UHF antennas get more recommendations here than the Channel Master series. Take a look at the Winegard 7078P. But you are only 18 miles from stations all in the same direction, I would not be surprised if a Silver Sensor in the attic worked for the UHF digital stations.

afiggatt

02-05-07, 03:00 PM

Hi, I realize bigger is generally better, but I want to try and get channels about 35 miles out, with as slim or small an outdoor antenna as possible. What are some of the better slimline/smallish antennas on the market that don't compromise too much in terms of range? Thanks.
What is your zip code? We need more info than general range. Are your stations all digitally broadcasting on UHF or will some be switching to upper VHF in 2009 after the analog shutdown. What is your terrain? Flat or hilly terrain with dense woods? Your zip code will allow us to look that info up and see what antennaweb.org has to say.

germ79

02-05-07, 06:17 PM

No. Your CBS DTV station is purple. A rooftop antenna with a preamp is called for. There are so many directions that you'll need a rotator too.

Oh my goodness! That sure seems like a lot to be able to pull in that one station! How big of an antenna are we talking about? Can you please point me in the right direction as to which brand/style to get and how to install/connect?

As far as the rotator is concerned, is that necessary or can you just have different "elements" pointing in different dirctions?

My father-in-law lives about 2 miles away and using a indoor Terk TV5 he gets most of those stations. I can't remember if he gets the CBS or not, but I know he had all of the major networks.

Thanks for your help!

Tower Guy

02-05-07, 08:53 PM

Oh my goodness! That sure seems like a lot to be able to pull in that one station! How big of an antenna are we talking about? Can you please point me in the right direction as to which brand/style to get and how to install/connect?

As far as the rotator is concerned, is that necessary or can you just have different "elements" pointing in different dirctions?

My father-in-law lives about 2 miles away and using a indoor Terk TV5 he gets most of those stations. I can't remember if he gets the CBS or not, but I know he had all of the major networks.

Thanks for your help!

You can't aim one antenna in four directions. If you don't want a rotator, you'll need four antennas joined together.

You'll want two of these; one for NBC/CW and one for ABC/FOX. http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4221.htm
This is the right antenna for PBS.
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/y10713.htm
This is for CBS.
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm
This is how you add them together;
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/Jointennas.htm

Now do you appreciate the suggestion that you get a rotator?

afiggatt

02-05-07, 09:48 PM

Oh my goodness! That sure seems like a lot to be able to pull in that one station! How big of an antenna are we talking about? Can you please point me in the right direction as to which brand/style to get and how to install/connect?

As far as the rotator is concerned, is that necessary or can you just have different "elements" pointing in different dirctions?

My father-in-law lives about 2 miles away and using a indoor Terk TV5 he gets most of those stations. I can't remember if he gets the CBS or not, but I know he had all of the major networks.
The reason that WCIA-DT CBS 3 (DT=48) station is getting a purple color code from antennaweb is that the digital signal is at low power. According to the wikipedia entry - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WCIA-TV - the station is also still not broadcasting an HD signal. It is owned by NexStar Broadcasting which has been putting off going to full digital power for many stations they own. Don't let that station drive your antenna selection as you may not be able to get it until they boost the digital signal.

The rest of the significant digital stations are yellow, but spread around in azimuth. One is broadcasting on VHF 9, the rest on UHF. If you provide your zip code, it is a lot easier to figure out what antenna is best for your situation. The default antennaweb settings tend to be over conservative on digital reception.

germ79

02-05-07, 10:47 PM

If you provide your zip code, it is a lot easier to figure out what antenna is best for your situation. The default antennaweb settings tend to be over conservative on digital reception.

Thank you both for your help. I'm new to this whole new antenna thing! My zip is 62549.

Thank you VERY much!

Jeremy

afiggatt

02-06-07, 12:22 AM

Thank you both for your help. I'm new to this whole new antenna thing! My zip is 62549.
I plugged in an antenna height of 200' into antennaweb for your zip code to get the list below. The color codes are not that relevant when you do this, but it provides a more complete list of the digital stations you MAY get. First, WICS-DT ABC 20 comes in purple, but the FCC database for the station shows a low power STA entry and a full power licensed entry. Antennaweb is using the low power number in it's calculations. Check with your local central IL thread at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=195213 for the status of the stations. They should also be able to provide local advice on antennas.

The trimmed list for your digital stations is:
* yellow - uhf WRSP-DT 55.1 FOX SPRINGFIELD IL 274° 30.5 44
* yellow - uhf WAND-DT 17.1 NBC DECATUR IL 11° 12.2 18
* yellow - uhf WBUI-DT 23.1 CW DECATUR IL 2° 11.8 22
* yellow - vhf WILL-DT 12.1 PBS URBANA IL 32° 20.9 9
* lt green - uhf WCIA-DT 3.1 CBS CHAMPAIGN IL 46° 31.8 48
* violet - uhf WCFN-DT 49.1 MNT SPRINGFIELD IL 273° 34.1 53
* violet - uhf WICS-DT 20.1 ABC SPRINGFIELD IL 275° 31.3 42

The WILL PBS 12 station is broadcasting on VHF 9, the rest are currently on UHF. My suggestion would be to get a Channel Master 4221 4 bay bowtie UHF antenna and put it in the attic or better yet outside. If you put it on the roof, get a rotator. The CM 4221 can pick up stations spread around in azimuth, but your situation is a challenge. Try the CM 4221 by itself first, maybe combined with a medium boost pre-amp. Aim it at the more distant Springfield stations. The CM 4221 has some pickup for upper VHF, but you may need to add a upper VHF antenna - the Winegard YA-6713 - aimed at the PBS station if it does not come in. However combining a UHF and a VHF antenna is easy with a simple VHF-UHF antenna combiner.

For info on antennas and OTA reception, go to http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html. Hope this all makes sense.

Good luck!

cbaker007

02-06-07, 03:06 AM

I am looking to buy an antenna for OTA reception of HD only. I have have been doing research for a few months now and have used the antennaweb site several times, read many posts here in this thread, and have read the Antenna Primer listed here as well. I was curious if anyone could offer any antenna recommendation. I would appreciate any recommendations I can get from someone who is an expert on antennas or those with exeriences similiar to mine:

1) Looking to pickup OTA HD on UHF and High VHF (I know that Chicago WBBM-DT is on VHF low, but with all the issues with WBBM-DT not worried about it - beside they are moving to High VHF at some point, CH-11).
2) All stations I care about are in one direction (40-41 degrees) (will let go of the few in Gary, IN if they don't come in - totally different direction).
3) I am estimating that I am 30-40 miles away. Using AntennaWeb site and put in a multi-story building (same results with single story), all the HD ( -DT ) stations that I care about show at Yellow or less. (WBBM-DT in Low VHF shows in Green along with a bunch of SD stations.)
4) Due to the orientation of my home (front faces toward the antennas), I don't want to place a large, "finger type" antenna on the 2nd story roof (really steep roof, so 3 stories up) on the outside.
5) The first obstruction is a series of 2-story, brick homes about 250' away.

1) Any chance I could use one of these smaller "rod" (example - Terk TV55) or "flat panel" (example - Terk HDTVs or Winegard SS-2000) type antenna just outside, even if the house (brick) or if put on a chimey on the back "L" part of the house (which would have the roof (shingles and plywood) in the way.
2) If that wouldn't work, would putting one of these low profile antennas listed above work on the first floor outside in the front?
3) Or would I need to go with a larger, "finger type" unit in the attic. I have one on top of the 2nd story that would just have plywood and thick asphalt shingles. About 100' of cable to run.
4) I have a single story attic too, but that has a gable end with metal foil insulation, plywood, and brick between the antenna and transmitter.

Any recommendations out there?

WillieAntenna

02-06-07, 10:44 AM

majik99

02-06-07, 01:11 PM

cbaker007

02-06-07, 01:13 PM

Thanks,

60467

ryancmor17

02-06-07, 05:12 PM

Here is my antenaweb for 44035.

I was ready to pull the trigger on a RS VU-90 XR, but neither store near me has any in stock so I will take this time to get a second opinion. The spec says up to 70 miles, so ignoring the Akron/Canton stations I should be ok for all others. In my case for ease of installation in the snow I want to temporarily mount this in the attic until spring, will this be overkill at 70 miles in the attic or should I go smaller?

* yellow - uhf WJW-DT 8.1 FOX CLEVELAND OH 101° 18.6 31
* yellow - uhf WEWS-DT 5.1 ABC CLEVELAND OH 99° 18.5 15
* yellow - uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland OH 97° 19.3 34
* green - uhf WUAB-DT 43.1 MNT LORAIN OH 98° 18.4 28
* red - vhf WOIO-DT 19.1 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 96° 19.7 10
* red - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 96° 20.0 2
* red - uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON OH 97° 19.7 30
* blue - uhf WEAO-DT 50.1 PBS AKRON OH 139° 30.9 50
* blue - uhf WVPX-DT 59 i AKRON OH TBD 138° 33.7 59
* violet - uhf WDLI-DT 39.1 TBN CANTON OH 139° 33.7 39

The RS model works great for all channels but FOX, the signal goes from 80% to 20% and back. Needless to say this causes a few seconds of freeze frame.

Any suggestions to help pull in a better signal for FOX until spring?

afiggatt

02-06-07, 09:18 PM

I was wondering if I could get some opinions on my situation. I am at zip code 76132. I currently have a 68-80% signal on all of the UHF digital stations in my area. I am using a older cheap loop and rabbit ears uhf/vhf antenna. My apartment has a balcony on the west side. The stations broadcast from the east, and that is the direction I have my set top antenna pointed towards. The only problem I am having is with WFAA, a VHF station. I am going to buy a new antenna, but I am not sure what to get. I could get a slightly better indoor antenna and put it in the same spot. Or I could get an outdoor antenna. The problem is that since my balcony is even further west (only a few feet ofcourse, but we know what a few feet can mean in terms of reception) will putting an outdoor antenna there help? I tried to move my indoor antenna closer to the balcony and I lost all the channels. So I guess my question is, is an outdoor antenna always better even if it has to point through the same amount, or even one additional wall? Thanks for the help.
Have you tried placing your current antenna outside on the balcony? Just to see if the signals get stronger or not. You will have to test out different orientations for both antennas and different lengths for the rabbit ears. One thing you should try with the rabbit ears is to extend them only about 1/2 way. WFAA-DT 8 is on upper VHF 9 with a wavelength of 1.6 meters. Try spreading the rabbit ears to a closer spacing.

However, the FCC database for WFAA-DT 8 (see http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WFAA-TV) shows the digital power is 18.6 kilowatts, while not a weak signal, is not that strong for an upper VHF station. Even though antennaweb shows a yellow antenna color for it, you may need to add a more substantial antenna for upper VHF reception.

afiggatt

02-06-07, 09:51 PM

Thanks,

60467
Except for the infamous WBBM-DT CBS 2 on VHF 3, all of your stations are yellow (using your zip code) and currently digitally broadcasting on UHF. The range using your zip code is only 23 to 25 miles and almost all in the same direction. You will also have WLS-DT switching to VHF 7 in 2009.

You posted so many options it is hard to sort through them. An attic with metal foil insulation is not a good bet. So scratch that as an option. A CM 4221 or a Square Shooter shoot get the UHF stations. A Silver Sensor indoor UHF antenna placed somewhere up in the house might get most of those stations for that matter. You could get one locally at Circuit City under the Philips brand (model PHDTV1) or at Best Buy under the Terk brand name if you want to give it a try to find out how strong your UHF stations are.

The problem is WBBM-DT on VHF 3. You could go with a medium range VHF/UHF "Y" style antenna in the higher attic space. The medium range antenna does not have to large. The Winegard 7078p or 7080p offer a shot at getting the CBS station. Add a pre-amp for the 100' RG-6 cable run.

majik99

02-06-07, 10:29 PM

Have you tried placing your current antenna outside on the balcony? Just to see if the signals get stronger or not. You will have to test out different orientations for both antennas and different lengths for the rabbit ears. One thing you should try with the rabbit ears is to extend them only about 1/2 way. WFAA-DT 8 is on upper VHF 9 with a wavelength of 1.6 meters. Try spreading the rabbit ears to a closer spacing.

However, the FCC database for WFAA-DT 8 (see http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=WFAA-TV) shows the digital power is 18.6 kilowatts, while not a weak signal, is not that strong for an upper VHF station. Even though antennaweb shows a yellow antenna color for it, you may need to add a more substantial antenna for upper VHF reception.

Alright thanks for the ideas. I bought a terk hdtva today. It boosted the signals I was already getting to 75-90%. I still didnt get wfaa. I moved it outside like you said, and depending on where I put it, I got some signal for WFAA. Enough for the TV to add it as a digital channel finally. So it looks like an outdoor antenna might work. My question is now, which one? ALmost all of them tout their ability to receive UHF. What is the best one for VHF while not loosing my UHF stations. Is it the CM 4228? I see that getting "good" reception reviews around here for VHF.

afiggatt

02-06-07, 11:31 PM

Alright thanks for the ideas. I bought a terk hdtva today. It boosted the signals I was already getting to 75-90%. I still didnt get wfaa. I moved it outside like you said, and depending on where I put it, I got some signal for WFAA. Enough for the TV to add it as a digital channel finally. So it looks like an outdoor antenna might work. My question is now, which one? ALmost all of them tout their ability to receive UHF. What is the best one for VHF while not loosing my UHF stations. Is it the CM 4228? I see that getting "good" reception reviews around here for VHF.
The Cm 4228 is a long range directional UHF antenna which is rather large to fit onto a balcony and which has to aimed at the broadcast towers. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html for details on this antenna and http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html for useful antenna info.

If you are reliably getting all the UHF stations with the Terk HDTVa, stick with it. For WFAA, you could stick a VHF only antenna up near the ceiling or out in the balcony area. See the Winegard YA-6713 as an example of a specialized upper VHF antenna. But experiment first with different lengths and V angles for the rabbit ears to see if it will lock in on WFAA-DT. You could also look into building a simple dedicated dipole antenna for VHF 9 if you are into do it yourself stuff.

majik99

02-07-07, 12:38 AM

The Cm 4228 is a long range directional UHF antenna which is rather large to fit onto a balcony and which has to aimed at the broadcast towers. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html for details on this antenna and http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html for useful antenna info.

If you are reliably getting all the UHF stations with the Terk HDTVa, stick with it. For WFAA, you could stick a VHF only antenna up near the ceiling or out in the balcony area. See the Winegard YA-6713 as an example of a specialized upper VHF antenna. But experiment first with different lengths and V angles for the rabbit ears to see if it will lock in on WFAA-DT. You could also look into building a simple dedicated dipole antenna for VHF 9 if you are into do it yourself stuff.
Well I have been playing with the rabbit ears all night. I finally got the TV to see WFAA so I could play with the antenna and actually see the signal increase and decrease. So I came up with one ear all the way out and the other only halfway and that seems to be the best so far. Ill stick with this for now, and see how it does. Thanks again!

cpcat

02-07-07, 07:51 AM

Well I have been playing with the rabbit ears all night. !

Just in case you haven't seen this:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html

zenbig42

02-07-07, 09:27 AM

phitz

02-07-07, 01:04 PM

My XG-91 is in the attic and behind trees, works much better than the CM 4248 in this situation.

germ79

02-07-07, 03:13 PM

The WILL PBS 12 station is broadcasting on VHF 9, the rest are currently on UHF. My suggestion would be to get a Channel Master 4221 4 bay bowtie UHF antenna and put it in the attic or better yet outside. If you put it on the roof, get a rotator. The CM 4221 can pick up stations spread around in azimuth, but your situation is a challenge. Try the CM 4221 by itself first, maybe combined with a medium boost pre-amp. Aim it at the more distant Springfield stations. The CM 4221 has some pickup for upper VHF, but you may need to add a upper VHF antenna - the Winegard YA-6713 - aimed at the PBS station if it does not come in. However combining a UHF and a VHF antenna is easy with a simple VHF-UHF antenna combiner.

Thank you all so much for your help!

Well, I'm going to try out my father-in-law's Terk antenna to see how it works. I'm assuming it will get everything except that darned CBS station.

I'd rather not put an antenna on our roof. The way our house is shaped and facing, I think it will look goofy.

If I'm going to put one in the attic, is there anything special I should know? Should I get something bigger or more powerful since it will be in the attic? I don't know how much being insided the attic will take away compared to being on the roof. I kind of have to keep in mind that the attic doesn't have a very large opening to get inside, so I can't have anything that is huge and one-piece.

The Dish Network guy is coming Saturday. Is there anything I need to have him do that would make adding an antenna easier for me? I heard someone somewhere else talke of a diplexer that their Dish guy installed so it would be easier to add an antenna. Is this something I need?

Thanks in advance!

Jeremy

zenbig42

02-07-07, 03:20 PM

My XG-91 is in the attic and behind trees, works much better than the CM 4248 in this situation.

You tried a CM 4248 (yagi, not the 4228 8-bay) in the same spot? How far are you from the transmitter(s)? Any hills in the way?
thanks!

afiggatt

02-07-07, 06:05 PM

If I'm going to put one in the attic, is there anything special I should know? Should I get something bigger or more powerful since it will be in the attic? I don't know how much being insided the attic will take away compared to being on the roof. I kind of have to keep in mind that the attic doesn't have a very large opening to get inside, so I can't have anything that is huge and one-piece.
If you put an antenna in the attic, don't bolt the mast down to a specific spot until you have tried it out and find a spot with good reception. Attics can have dead spots for reception because of signals reflecting off of the walls. I have a CM 4221 in my crawl space attic mounted to a large enough piece of flat scrap wood. I used a $5 attic mounting bracket I got at Lowes to mount the PVC pipe mast to the scrap wood. I used it move the antenna around until I found a good location and have pretty much left it there since then. Attics do cut down signal strength, but I can get stations over 45 miles away with the antenna in the attic, so it can work there provided you do not have radiant barrier lining or other metal obstructions.

The Dish Network guy is coming Saturday. Is there anything I need to have him do that would make adding an antenna easier for me? I heard someone somewhere else talke of a diplexer that their Dish guy installed so it would be easier to add an antenna. Is this something I need?
Yes, you could run the antenna signal through the diplexer, although this complicates the setup, especially if you want to add a pre-amp to the antenna. But how far away from the satellite dish is the attic? If you are going to run a RG-6 co-axial from the attic, would it be simpler to just run it directly to the TV? This depends on the layout of your house and where the satellite dishes are. If it can be done without tearing out walls, running a dedicated coaxial line for the OTA antenna is the preferred approach. Then you can add a pre-amp with the power supplied down at the TV and not have to worry about dealing with a diplexer. But you know the layout of your house and what is involved in doing this.

If the Dish installer is running coaxial cables into the house, you could ask him if he would be willing to add another co-axial line for the OTA antenna.

Neil L

02-07-07, 06:31 PM

Has anyone out there done a direct comparision of the Antennas Direct XG91 yagi vs. the Channel Master 4248 yagi in the field in a tough spot, with trees, weak signal area?? I know that published numbers on gain don't exactly equate to what you often get installed.Personally I have not tried either (I use a 4228), but you might want to take a look at the following post in this thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9677365&&#post9677365

Tower Guy

02-07-07, 09:18 PM

Has anyone out there done a direct comparision of the Antennas Direct XG91 yagi vs. the Channel Master 4248 yagi in the field in a tough spot, with trees, weak signal area?? I know that published numbers on gain don't exactly equate to what you often get installed.

Look here: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
The XG-91 and 4248 are similar. The XG91 does better on the higher channels, the 4248 on the lower channels. They're very close from channels 20-50.

tfjazz

02-08-07, 03:00 PM

Hi everyone,

I'm interested in buying an antenna for OTA HD only. I've been reading these forums and the HD primers for the past few weeks but I'm still a little lost as to how much antenna I need. A majority of the discussion is about UHF and most of my digital channels are VHF. My priorities would be to get ABC, CBS, and NBC. If getting the CW would require more equipment or significantly more work I can pass on it.

Anyways if someone could present me with a couple of different options I could go with that'd be great.

Here's the antennaweb info for my zipcode 89084.

* yellow - vhf KTNV-DT 13.1 ABC LAS VEGAS NV 149° 24.7 12
* yellow - uhf KINC-DT 15.1 UNI LAS VEGAS NV 149° 24.6 16
* yellow - vhf KLAS-DT 8.1 CBS LAS VEGAS NV 149° 24.7 7
* yellow - vhf KLVX-DT 10.1 PBS LAS VEGAS NV 141° 21.4 11
* yellow - vhf KVBC-DT 3.1 NBC LAS VEGAS NV 140° 21.3 2
* yellow - uhf KBLR-DT 40.1 TEL PARADISE NV 140° 21.3 40
* red - uhf KVMY-DT 21.1 MNT LAS VEGAS NV 141° 21.4 22
* red - uhf KVCW-DT 33.1 CW LAS VEGAS NV 141° 21.4 29

thanks

PhantomOG

02-08-07, 05:36 PM

Rammitinski

02-08-07, 06:51 PM

my zip is 78749. I'm getting DishHD-DVR setup next week and I'd like to know which antenna to purchase for my local HD. Here's what Antenna web says for my address, digitals only:
* yellow - uhf KLRU-DT 18.1 PBS AUSTIN TX 21° 9.9 22
* yellow - uhf KEYE-DT 42.1 CBS AUSTIN TX 16° 9.6 43
* yellow - uhf KVUE-DT 24.1 ABC AUSTIN TX 16° 9.6 33
* red - uhf KXAN-DT 36.1 NBC AUSTIN TX 17° 9.9 21
* blue - vhf KCWX-DT 2.1 CW FREDERICKSBURG TX 01-09 260° 44.8 5
* violet - uhf KNVA-DT 54.1 CW AUSTIN TX 17° 9.9 49
* violet - vhf KAKW-DT 62.1 UNI KILLEEN TX 343° 37.5 13

Thanks for any help!If you can live without KAKW-DT (and KCWX-DT, which is a duplicate CW channel), I'd just attach an Antennas Direct DB2 to the dish arm, point it at about 18 degrees, and leave it at that. Barring any major obstructions to the signal path, that would be about the simplest thing to do. 10 miles out is a stone's throw, if you have a reasonably clear shot.

It's always best to run it in on it's own, separate line, but the installer can try to diplex it into the satellite line and see if that's good enough first. The DB4 is larger and has more gain, but you'll have to make sure the arm is sturdy enough first. Otherwise, just get the DB4 and install it separate from the dish arm. Or better yet, go with the Channel Master 4221.

afiggatt

02-08-07, 10:15 PM

I'm interested in buying an antenna for OTA HD only. I've been reading these forums and the HD primers for the past few weeks but I'm still a little lost as to how much antenna I need. A majority of the discussion is about UHF and most of my digital channels are VHF. My priorities would be to get ABC, CBS, and NBC. If getting the CW would require more equipment or significantly more work I can pass on it.

Anyways if someone could present me with a couple of different options I could go with that'd be great.

Here's the antennaweb info for my zipcode 89084.

* yellow - vhf KTNV-DT 13.1 ABC LAS VEGAS NV 149° 24.7 12
* yellow - uhf KINC-DT 15.1 UNI LAS VEGAS NV 149° 24.6 16
* yellow - vhf KLAS-DT 8.1 CBS LAS VEGAS NV 149° 24.7 7
* yellow - vhf KLVX-DT 10.1 PBS LAS VEGAS NV 141° 21.4 11
* yellow - vhf KVBC-DT 3.1 NBC LAS VEGAS NV 140° 21.3 2
* yellow - uhf KBLR-DT 40.1 TEL PARADISE NV 140° 21.3 40
* red - uhf KVMY-DT 21.1 MNT LAS VEGAS NV 141° 21.4 22
* red - uhf KVCW-DT 33.1 CW LAS VEGAS NV 141° 21.4 29
Are you looking for an indoor, attic, or outdoor antenna setup? Looking up the FCC database on KVCW-DT (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?call=KVCW), there are 2 entries for the digital signal: a 4.9 kW low power STA and a full power 1000 kW entry. Antennaweb is likely using the 4.9 kW power level in it's color codes. Check the Las Vegas locals thread to find out the status of the station. If the station is at 1000 kW, you should have little trouble picking it up.

Given that all the stations are yellow or red, in the same direction, and 21 miles, an indoor setup might work, but rabbit ears at 21 miles is iffy. (You could try a basic VHF rabbit ear and UHF loop antenna that you can find at almost any electronic store just to see what stations you can get). With the low VHF and UHF stations, a standard medium range VHF/UHF antenna is your best bet. Look at the Winegard 7078p, Channel Master 3677, Radio Shack stuff. Getting all your stations should not be a problem.

afiggatt

02-08-07, 10:36 PM

my zip is 78749. I'm getting DishHD-DVR setup next week and I'd like to know which antenna to purchase for my local HD. Here's what Antenna web says for my address, digitals only:
I noticed that there was no Fox station on your list, but there is a Fox affiliate in Austin: KTBC-DT Fox 7 (DT = 56). According to wikipedia, the station is at full power of 1000 kW, so you should be able to receive it. Antennaweb is probably using the old low power level of a mere 0.8 kW in it's computations. BTW, KTBC-DT will be switching it's digital signal to VHF 7 in 2009 after the analog shutdown.

Rammitinski suggestions are good ones. However, you are only 9 miles away, so an Silver Sensor indoor UHF antenna may get all the stations. But DB2 or CM 4221 mounted outdoors would do the trick. You might to add a upper VHF antenna in 2009, although I expect a CM 4221 will get a digital VHF 7 at 10 miles.

SlumLord1701

02-09-07, 07:44 AM

PhantomOG

02-09-07, 11:51 AM

However, you are only 9 miles away, so an Silver Sensor indoor UHF antenna may get all the stations.
Thanks for your help. I can't seem to find a place to buy a silver sensor, so after the install next week I'm thinking about buying this from Circuit City.

Phillips PHDTV1 UHF Antenna (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Indoor-HDTV-Antenna-PHDTV1/sem/rpsm/oid/158311/catOid/-15607/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do)

Hopefully it will work as well.

WillieAntenna

02-09-07, 12:06 PM

Thanks for your help. I can't seem to find a place to buy a silver sensor, so after the install next week I'm thinking about buying this from Circuit City.

Phillips PHDTV1 UHF Antenna (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Indoor-HDTV-Antenna-PHDTV1/sem/rpsm/oid/158311/catOid/-15607/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do)

Hopefully it will work as well.

Siliver Sensor goes under few different names can't remember all name brands but Philips PHDTV1 is one of it. Zenith is the original brand. But stay away from Terk they just a copycat of Siliver Sensor and way overpriced. Circuit City would be the place should cost around $25.00.

Rammitinski

02-09-07, 12:17 PM

PhantomOG

02-09-07, 12:24 PM

Doh! Didn't even notice the product page does say Silver Sensor. :o

But wait! Its out of stock online, and in all 3 stores within 15 miles of me :(

Hopefully they'll get some in stock before my install on Wednesday.

NYSmoker

02-09-07, 01:27 PM

I just picked one (Silver Sensor) up today at Circuit City. I am in Queens, NY, 6.2 miles from the ESB. I live on the 1st floor of a two family house. I'm hoping it works well.

afiggatt

02-09-07, 11:47 PM

I'm kinda new at this so I would like some help. I have access to a 4228 and 7777 with rotator from a friend I would like to receive the following channels.

According to antennaweb for my zip 43605 I should receive the following..
* yellow - uhf WGTE-DT 30.1 PBS TOLEDO OH 68° 5.6 29
* yellow - uhf WTOL-DT 11.1 CBS TOLEDO OH 70° 8.5 17
* yellow - uhf WNWO-DT 24.1 NBC Toledo OH 76° 9.4 49
* yellow - uhf WUPW-DT 36.1 FOX TOLEDO OH 65° 5.0 46
* red - uhf WTVG-DT 13.1 ABC TOLEDO OH 59° 7.4 19
The above are listed under "digital only". The following channels are listed under analog only for my zip. I checked under a different zip closer to Detroit just to see if they had digital channels and they showed up with the same compass orientation and distance as the analog ones. The following specs are analog under my zip with the Digital Channel # and Frequency assignment from alternate zip in parenthesies.

violet - uhf WKBD 50 CW DETROIT MI 17° 60.7 50 (dig is 50.1 w/FreqAssn of 14)
blue - uhf WMYD 20 MNT DETROIT MI 24° 60.1 20 (dig is 20.1 W/ FreqAssn of 21)
Is possible to receive either of these with this setup or will I need to meke some modifications? Another dumb newbe question does it matter what type of cable you use? I'm assuming rg6 but do you need quad shield and does aluminum or copper braid make a difference? When running the ground wire from antenna to ground rod is any particular gauge suggested. Thanks in advance to all of you All Knowing Oracle's for your kind help and guidance.
Whew, complicated situation. For your local digital stations in Toledo, the CM 4228 is normally severe overkill for stations at only 5 to 9 miles. I looked up on wikipedia the affiliates for CW and My Network. Toledo has a low power analog only station for MNT and a cable only analog CW "station". The CW network does offer some decent HD program, but I have to admit that My Network at this time is not something I would put much effort into being able to get in HD.

If you have not done so, you should check with the Toledo local thread to see whether others in your area can get the Detroit CW and MNT stations.

You could put up the CM 4228 and aim it at Detroit. Your locals are so close that the CM4228 might pick them up in the sidelobes. But the pre-amp may overload with stations so close by. If you really want to do this, put up the CM 4228 outdoors or upstairs with a temporary mount and no pre-amp, and see what stations you can get. You should be able to get the Toledo digital stations with a Silver Sensor. One possibility is a two antenna setup with the Silver Sensor indoors, a CM 4228 on the roof for the Detroit stations, and a A/B switch.

Looking at the Detroit stations, the wikipedia entry for WKBD-TV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WKBD-TV) has a link to the FCC database. WKBD-DT CW 50 (DT=14) is not showing up on antennaweb because it is operating at either 58.7 kW or 200 kW. Depending on the elevation of your house and the terrain, you may have a hard time getting that station at 60 miles. The WMYD-DT MNT station in Detroit is at 500 kW.

If you can borrow a CM 4228, try some experiments with it by setting it upstairs near a window or outside and try aiming it at different stations. If you are willing to spend $25, get a Silver Sensor for testing your local station reception.

As for the cabling, you want to get good quality RG-6, quad shielded is fine. BTW, RG-6 is cheaper at places such as Lowes or Home Depot than at Best Buy or Circuit City as the electronic chain stores have taken to seriously marking up cables.

cpcat

02-10-07, 08:31 AM

Another dumb newbe question does it matter what type of cable you use? I'm assuming rg6 but do you need quad shield and does aluminum or copper braid make a difference? When running the ground wire from antenna to ground rod is any particular gauge suggested. Thanks in advance to all of you All Knowing Oracle's for your kind help and guidance.

Type of RG6 doesn't matter. Whether to add quad shielding probably doesn't matter in most situations but doesn't hurt either.

Technically, you should ground to your house ground, not a grounding rod. If using a grounding rod, it (the grounding rod) should be bonded to the house ground with #6 copper.
The size of the wire from the antenna to the ground depends on the wire type. As I recall, it's at least 14g copper and 10g aluminum.

needhelpguy

02-10-07, 09:22 AM

afiggatt

02-11-07, 12:16 AM

I started with a cheapie radio shack antenna and got all ota hd signals in the charlotte nc area. BUT....no sound for ABC. got a more expensive radio shack antenna and same thing! the radio shack guy had no clue what might cause this. anybody got any ideas. the hdtv is a 50" rear projection toshiba tv bought this year.
If you are getting the picture for a station, but not the sound, the problem is not with the antenna. Both sound and video are part of the same digital data stream.

Do a re-scan and check the sound settings on the receiver and TV. You should ask in the Charlotte, NC or closest to locals thread about if there are known issues with the local ABC broadcast.

Neil L

02-11-07, 09:38 AM

If you are getting the picture for a station, but not the sound, the problem is not with the antenna.True. When our local ABC station first started trying to broadcast DTV a few years ago, there were times when I got audio or video without the other. But, it was always becase of a broadcast equipment problem. Never my antenna. Both sound and video are part of the same digital data stream.Aren't the audio and video sub-carriers transmitted just a few Mhz apart? I know they are with analog, not sure about digital.

afiggatt

02-11-07, 04:58 PM

Aren't the audio and video sub-carriers transmitted just a few Mhz apart? I know they are with analog, not sure about digital.
Although they share the same 6 MHz bandwidth and channel assignments, digital ATSC 8-VSB transmission is very different from analog. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html if you want some technical discussion.

Neil L

02-11-07, 08:01 PM

woodsmith

02-12-07, 12:50 PM

afiggatt

02-12-07, 04:55 PM

I live in Hamden, Ct and just purchased a new Sony 40V2500. I would like to get the free HD local channels. Will an indoor antenna be fine? What type of wire hookup will it wind uo being? Thanks for ther help. Woodsmith
So your zip code is 06518? Do you live at a higher elevation or down in a valley? There are some hills in that part of CT if I'm not mistaken. You are not far from the New Haven stations however, so an indoor antenna should work for those. But looking at antennaweb, most of the network stations are further away in Waterbury / New Britain or Hartford. Which city or cities are you interested in getting digital reception for?

holl_ands

02-12-07, 05:14 PM

Yes, it's understood that ATSC and NTSC are different. With NTSC, on channel 24 for example, the 6Mhz frequency range is 530-536Mhz, the video is centered on 531.25Mhz, the chroma at 534.8295Mhz and the audio at 535.75Mhz. What I'm not clear on is how the 6Mhz band is used with ATSC. Is there really just a transport stream that carreis all audio and video info in one package? Google has not given me the answer yet. I'm just curious, don't really need to know.
As you can see from the above ATSC description--it's verry, verrry complicated.
Because it's digital, with a single, serial stream of ones and zeros, there must be a hierarchy of structure,
including error detection and correction schemes and various data labeling (PSIP) schemes.

One ATSC channel can contain several different data streams, some of which are MPEG2 and some
of which can be other things, such as downloads to Moviebeam type systems, firmware updates
to suitably equipped HDTVs or data broadcasts to commercial users.

MPEG2 data streams contain a compressed digital video data stream and (in general) can contain about
a dozen digital audio data channels. ATSC supports a single Primary DD5.1 data stream
and a Secondary (SAP) Stereo data stream.

ATSC (i.e. 8-VSB) begins as a carrier (the "Pilot" frequency) which is amplitude modulated with
8 levels of digital amplitude (each carrying 3-bits of information). The lower sideband is then
partially filtered off, leaving what is called the "Vestigial Sideband". This explains why most of the
energy is contained above the "Pilot" frequency.

SlumLord1701

02-12-07, 05:24 PM

I just wanted to say thanks to afiggatt and cpcat for your help!

woodsmith

02-12-07, 09:44 PM

I am trying to get the locals such as ABC,CBS,NBC,FOX. Thanks for the help. I am looking at a Terk HDTVi antenna. Any feelings about those? Thanks

afiggatt

02-13-07, 04:04 PM

I am trying to get the locals such as ABC,CBS,NBC,FOX. Thanks for the help. I am looking at a Terk HDTVi antenna. Any feelings about those? Thanks
What is your zip code (again)? Are you located at a high elevation or down in a valley? Do you live in a house or in a condo/apartment?

woodsmith

02-13-07, 06:27 PM

afiggatt

02-13-07, 11:11 PM

woodsmith

02-14-07, 08:04 AM

Thank you for your help. Do you think that a omnidirectional antenna indoor antenna from Radio Shack would work? They have one for about $50.00 that looks good. Or any other indoor from Radio Shack? The reason why is that I can return the item if I need to get a outside one.

mentho

02-14-07, 11:34 PM

texasbrit

02-15-07, 10:26 AM

Mentho - it's a challenge for sure. The stations you do get are at 142/143 degrees, the ones you want are at 195/204 degrees.

First, you could try the Silver Sensor unamplified antenna http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PM-HDTV1-Silver-Sensor-Antenna/dp/B00022O9VM, you can often get it at Circuit City. In general, this is probably the best UHF indoor antenna. It is pretty directional so if you point it at 200 degrees you may not get any of the stations at 142. If you don't get anything at 200 degrees, just change the direction of the antenna and it's possible you will pick up reflections of the signal at a completely different angle.

If that does not work you should try the CM4221. It's an outside antenna but it is flat and fairly small and many people have used it indoors. If that does not work either indoors or out then I'm not sure what will.

andy.s.lee

02-15-07, 02:19 PM

My zip is 06517. I live on a level area with a noticable valley closer to New Haven easterly. I live in a 2 story house. If possible I would like tyo get a indoor antenna but will do an outside if I need to. The DISH sat system is regular not HD and for the cost of just getting 25 stations I would just as soon wait another year till my contract runs out and go back to Direct TV. DISH dosen't even offer the locals in HD. I think all basic stations ABC,CBS,NBC,and FOX are all being broadcast in HD. Thanks for all the help. I just want to get the most out of new Sony 40V2500.

The strongest channels in your area are to the north and to the south. The attached radar plot shows the actual broadcast channel numbers for each of the transmitters. Longer bars indicate stronger channels. Shorter bars in the red zone are generally too weak to pick up unless you get a really good outdoor directional antenna pointed at them.

Here are more detailed stats about the local transmitters:
Callsgn Channel Type Rx_dBm Latitude Longitude RCAMSL HAAT Path Dist Azimuth Freq Tx_EIRP
WCTX 59 (A) -29.9 41.42301 -72.95100 524.9 314.0 LOS 8.9 338.5 741.26 5000.000
WTNH 8 (A) -32.3 41.42301 -72.95100 574.9 364.0 LOS 8.9 338.5 181.25 174.000
WNHX-LP 51 (A) -34.4 41.32843 -72.90649 126.0 54.1 LOS 2.3 169.0 693.24 93.699
WEDY 6 (D) -42.3 41.32843 -72.90649 130.7 58.8 LOS 2.3 169.0 82.31 0.400
WTXX 20 (A) -45.1 41.51781 -73.01860 586.9 366.0 LOS 20.9 334.7 507.25 2240.000
WEDY 65 (A) -46.1 41.32843 -72.90649 133.0 61.1 LOS 2.3 169.0 777.25 7.940
WCTX 39 (D) -47.5 41.42301 -72.95100 511.9 301.0 LOS 8.9 338.5 620.31 61.828
WTNH 10 (D) -48.1 41.42301 -72.95100 552.9 342.0 LOS 8.9 338.5 192.31 5.228
WVIT 30 (A) -69.9 41.70080 -72.83201 672.1 451.0 1Edge 39.8 9.6 567.26 3023.662
WSAH 43 (A) -70.7 41.36204 -73.11289 271.3 76.2 2Edge 16.9 275.2 645.24 1347.836
WTIC-TV 61 (A) -72.1 41.70362 -72.83166 700.7 506.0 1Edge 40.2 9.6 753.26 5000.000
WEDW 49 (A) -72.2 41.27871 -73.18511 307.0 146.3 1Edge 24.1 251.2 681.24 1883.557
WSAH 42 (D) -72.5 41.36204 -73.11289 284.5 89.4 2Edge 16.9 275.2 638.31 780.000
W28AJ 28 (A) -77.6 41.29149 -72.96705 98.0 50.8 1Edge 7.8 216.1 555.25 2.366
WUVN 18 (A) -80.6 41.77501 -72.80051 515.4 299.0 1Edge 48.5 11.0 495.24 3160.000
WFSB 3 (A) -81.2 41.77510 -72.80510 358.1 140.1 2Edge 48.4 10.6 61.26 100.000
WFTY-TV 67 (A) -81.8 40.88975 -72.95313 257.3 219.0 2Edge 51.2 183.9 788.25 2496.912
WVIT 35 (D) -84.6 41.70080 -72.83201 655.1 434.0 1Edge 39.8 9.6 596.31 144.780
WTXX 12 (D) -90.4 41.70362 -72.83166 390.7 196.0 1Edge 40.2 9.6 204.31 16.332
WEDH 24 (A) -91.3 41.77425 -72.80497 742.2 517.0 1Edge 48.3 10.6 531.25 56.671
WTIC-TV 31 (D) -91.3 41.70362 -72.83166 700.7 506.0 1Edge 40.2 9.6 572.31 18.661
WEDW 52 (D) -91.3 41.27899 -73.18511 273.2 113.2 1Edge 24.1 251.3 698.31 41.257
WCBS-TV 2 (A) -91.6 40.74843 -73.98569 430.1 389.0 1Edge 111.8 233.3 55.25 45.000
WEDH 45 (D) -92.9 41.70362 -72.83166 699.7 505.0 1Edge 40.2 9.6 656.31 22.835
WNBC 4 (A) -95.3 40.74844 -73.98569 452.0 410.9 1Edge 111.8 233.3 67.25 30.000
WFSB 33 (D) -95.7 41.77510 -72.80510 375.8 157.8 2Edge 48.4 10.6 584.31 998.114
WNYW 5 (A) -97.8 40.74843 -73.98569 378.6 337.5 1Edge 111.8 233.3 77.25 30.000

Channels at the top are strong, channels at the bottom are weak. Distance is given in km. This info takes into account the transmitter's power (Tx_EIRP) and terrain (mountain blockage), but does not take into account any buildings. Terrain and transmitter directions are highly dependent on exact location, so a more accurate reading can be generated for specific coordinates. The center of the zip code 06517 was used to generate this table.

deconvolver

02-15-07, 05:05 PM

The strongest channels in your area are to the north and to the south. The attached radar plot shows the actual broadcast channel numbers for each of the transmitters. Longer bars indicate stronger channels. Shorter bars in the red zone are generally too weak to pick up unless you get a really good outdoor directional antenna pointed at them.

Here are more detailed stats about the local transmitters:
Callsgn Channel Type Rx_dBm Latitude Longitude RCAMSL HAAT Path Dist Azimuth Freq Tx_EIRP
WCTX 59 (A) -29.9 41.42301 -72.95100 524.9 314.0 LOS 8.9 338.5 741.26 5000.000
WTNH 8 (A) -32.3 41.42301 -72.95100 574.9 364.0 LOS 8.9 338.5 181.25 174.000
WNHX-LP 51 (A) -34.4 41.32843 -72.90649 126.0 54.1 LOS 2.3 169.0 693.24 93.699
WEDY 6 (D) -42.3 41.32843 -72.90649 130.7 58.8 LOS 2.3 169.0 82.31 0.400
WTXX 20 (A) -45.1 41.51781 -73.01860 586.9 366.0 LOS 20.9 334.7 507.25 2240.000
WEDY 65 (A) -46.1 41.32843 -72.90649 133.0 61.1 LOS 2.3 169.0 777.25 7.940
WCTX 39 (D) -47.5 41.42301 -72.95100 511.9 301.0 LOS 8.9 338.5 620.31 61.828
WTNH 10 (D) -48.1 41.42301 -72.95100 552.9 342.0 LOS 8.9 338.5 192.31 5.228
WVIT 30 (A) -69.9 41.70080 -72.83201 672.1 451.0 1Edge 39.8 9.6 567.26 3023.662
WSAH 43 (A) -70.7 41.36204 -73.11289 271.3 76.2 2Edge 16.9 275.2 645.24 1347.836
WTIC-TV 61 (A) -72.1 41.70362 -72.83166 700.7 506.0 1Edge 40.2 9.6 753.26 5000.000
WEDW 49 (A) -72.2 41.27871 -73.18511 307.0 146.3 1Edge 24.1 251.2 681.24 1883.557
WSAH 42 (D) -72.5 41.36204 -73.11289 284.5 89.4 2Edge 16.9 275.2 638.31 780.000
W28AJ 28 (A) -77.6 41.29149 -72.96705 98.0 50.8 1Edge 7.8 216.1 555.25 2.366
WUVN 18 (A) -80.6 41.77501 -72.80051 515.4 299.0 1Edge 48.5 11.0 495.24 3160.000
WFSB 3 (A) -81.2 41.77510 -72.80510 358.1 140.1 2Edge 48.4 10.6 61.26 100.000
WFTY-TV 67 (A) -81.8 40.88975 -72.95313 257.3 219.0 2Edge 51.2 183.9 788.25 2496.912
WVIT 35 (D) -84.6 41.70080 -72.83201 655.1 434.0 1Edge 39.8 9.6 596.31 144.780
WTXX 12 (D) -90.4 41.70362 -72.83166 390.7 196.0 1Edge 40.2 9.6 204.31 16.332
WEDH 24 (A) -91.3 41.77425 -72.80497 742.2 517.0 1Edge 48.3 10.6 531.25 56.671
WTIC-TV 31 (D) -91.3 41.70362 -72.83166 700.7 506.0 1Edge 40.2 9.6 572.31 18.661
WEDW 52 (D) -91.3 41.27899 -73.18511 273.2 113.2 1Edge 24.1 251.3 698.31 41.257
WCBS-TV 2 (A) -91.6 40.74843 -73.98569 430.1 389.0 1Edge 111.8 233.3 55.25 45.000
WEDH 45 (D) -92.9 41.70362 -72.83166 699.7 505.0 1Edge 40.2 9.6 656.31 22.835
WNBC 4 (A) -95.3 40.74844 -73.98569 452.0 410.9 1Edge 111.8 233.3 67.25 30.000
WFSB 33 (D) -95.7 41.77510 -72.80510 375.8 157.8 2Edge 48.4 10.6 584.31 998.114
WNYW 5 (A) -97.8 40.74843 -73.98569 378.6 337.5 1Edge 111.8 233.3 77.25 30.000

Channels at the top are strong, channels at the bottom are weak. Distance is given in km. This info takes into account the transmitter's power (Tx_EIRP) and terrain (mountain blockage), but does not take into account any buildings. Terrain and transmitter directions are highly dependent on exact location, so a more accurate reading can be generated for specific coordinates. The center of the zip code 06517 was used to generate this table.
Andy, what did you use to generate that table?
By the way the transmitter information seems to be based on what will happen after the build out of the WTIC tower on Rattlesnake Mountain is complete (except for WTXX-DT). WTIC-DT and WTXX-DT are not yet at the top of the tower and WEDH-DT is not expected to be on the air for many months.

andy.s.lee

02-15-07, 06:02 PM

Andy, what did you use to generate that table?
By the way the transmitter information seems to be based on what will happen after the build out of the WTIC tower on Rattlesnake Mountain is complete (except for WTXX-DT). WTIC-DT and WTXX-DT are not yet at the top of the tower and WEDH-DT is not expected to be on the air for many months.

This information is based on (all data is downloadable for free):
1) The FCC database, available from ww.fcc.gov/mb/audio/tvq.html
2) Antenna radiation patterns (also from FCC), available from ww.fcc.gov/mb/databases/querydata
3) Terrain data, available from the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission (SRTM)
4) RF propagation modeling software based on the Longley-Rice Irregular Terrain Model

I develop RF propagation modeling software as part of my job and thought it might be useful here. Based on personal experience, I have found the antennaweb information to be too generic. Their radar plots don't seem to take any physics into account (tx power, terrain, etc.), plus on several occasions, I've found errors and omissions in their data. Compared to the (free) data I have available to me, my propagation models seem to give me more realistic expectations than antennaweb.

However, you are absolutely right that the information does not always reflect current reality. Most transmitters show up in the FCC database months before they are actually built and turned on. When the FCC grants a transmitter license, it may show up in their database immediately, yet it will take the broadcaster quite a while to install and test a new transmitter.

So, any simulation results will always have a few caveats:

- Just because something exists in the FCC database does not mean it exists in the real world. For the most part, the FCC database agrees about 95% of the time.

- The RF model uses SRTM terrain data to estimate propagation losses. This does not include any building information, so local building obstructions may alter the actual received signal levels.

I simply make this information available because I think the relative bar lengths are more useful than the plots available on antennaweb and I also believe I'm getting less false information by directly using the FCC data (although it's not perfect).

holl_ands

02-15-07, 07:55 PM

woodsmith

02-15-07, 07:56 PM

OK, thanks for all the help. I tried an indoor antenna (Radio Shack UHF/VHF) and the channels came in great except they fluctuate too much. I believe I need a outdoor antenna which I would like to put on my existing Dish Sat pole. Any suggestions? HDTV really looks great once one gets it stabile. Too bad I can't use an indoor but can'y get CBS. Thanks

andy.s.lee

02-15-07, 09:03 PM

If anybody has the time I could use some help choosing an antenna for my situation. I live in Seattle, WA, less than three miles from all the of stations I'd like to receive. You'd think this would be simple, but i live in an apartment that on the ground floor and there's another fairly large apartment building between me and the antennas -- so I have no LoS. I bought this antenna at Target over the weekend, thinking i wouldn't need much to pick up the stations, but i was wrong. I get really spotty reception of 4, 5 and 7 (which are the ones I want) and great reception of 9 and 11 (which I don't care about much.) I only care about DTV reception. The reception I get is really finicky, I have to have the antenna in just the right spot and the loop angled just the right way to bring them in. The broadcast for Fox 13 is much farther away from me and I've yet to get it at all.

I might be able to mount an antenna outside if I need to but I won't be able to get it above the apartment building that's blocking my LoS.

Anybody have suggestions for me?

Here's my antennaweb info:

* yellow - uhf KCTS-DT 9.1 PBS SEATTLE WA 142° 2.8 41
* yellow - uhf KMYQ-DT 22.1 MNT SEATTLE WA 142° 2.8 25
* yellow - uhf KONG-DT 16.1 IND EVERETT WA 195° 1.9 31
* yellow - uhf KOMO-DT 4.1 ABC SEATTLE WA 199° 1.9 38
* yellow - uhf KING-DT 5.1 NBC SEATTLE WA 195° 1.9 48
* yellow - uhf KIRO-DT 7.1 CBS SEATTLE WA 204° 1.9 39
* yellow - uhf KWDK-DT 42.1 DAY TACOMA WA 104° 19.7 42
* yellow - uhf KWPX-DT 33.1 ION BELLEVUE WA 104° 19.7 32
* green - uhf KWOG-DT 51.1 IND BELLEVUE WA 103° 19.7 50
* blue - uhf KCPQ-DT 13.1 FOX TACOMA WA 234° 23.4 18
* blue - uhf KSTW-DT 11.1 CW TACOMA WA 143° 2.9 36
* violet - uhf KHCV-DT 44.1 SAH SEATTLE WA 104° 19.7 44

See attached radar plot for relative channel signal strengths and directions. Channel numbers in square brackets are the digital ones.

Detailed stats are here:
Callsgn Channel Type Rx_dBm Latitude Longitude RCAMSL HAAT Path Dist Azimuth Freq Tx_EIRP
KOMO-TV 4 (A) -16.5 47.63177 -122.35374 294.0 156.4 LOS 3.0 206.5 67.25 100.000
KING-TV 5 (A) -17.7 47.63177 -122.35096 297.0 160.5 LOS 2.9 202.8 77.26 100.000
KONG-TV 16 (A) -17.7 47.63177 -122.35096 279.0 142.5 LOS 2.9 202.8 483.24 3821.822
KIRO-TV 7 (A) -19.7 47.63343 -122.35679 297.0 175.1 LOS 2.9 212.1 175.25 316.000
KMYQ 22 (A) -21.7 47.61565 -122.30846 309.0 183.0 LOS 4.9 155.4 519.26 5000.000
KCTS-TV 9 (A) -24.8 47.61593 -122.30901 285.0 155.3 LOS 4.9 155.7 187.25 316.000
KIRO-TV 39 (D) -25.7 47.63343 -122.35679 271.0 149.1 LOS 2.9 212.1 620.31 991.047
KONG-TV 31 (D) -26.8 47.63177 -122.35096 258.0 121.5 LOS 2.9 202.8 572.31 661.260
KING-TV 48 (D) -27.7 47.63177 -122.35096 279.0 142.5 LOS 2.9 202.8 674.31 757.622
KSTW 11 (A) -28.5 47.61538 -122.30929 311.3 181.2 LOS 4.9 156.2 199.26 157.869
KOMO-TV 38 (D) -29.6 47.63177 -122.35374 270.0 132.4 LOS 3.0 206.5 614.31 404.285
KSTW 36 (D) -32.8 47.61510 -122.30901 311.3 182.8 LOS 5.0 156.1 602.31 526.887
KCTS-TV 41 (D) -34.0 47.61593 -122.30901 299.0 169.3 LOS 4.9 155.7 632.31 427.000
K57HB 47 (A) -35.5 47.63177 -122.35096 304.0 167.5 LOS 2.9 202.8 669.25 124.000
KMYQ 25 (D) -37.1 47.61565 -122.30846 326.1 200.1 LOS 4.9 155.4 536.31 155.000
KTBW-TV 20 (A) -40.4 47.54704 -122.79542 599.0 95.6 LOS 36.5 250.6 507.25 3550.000
KUNS-TV 51 (A) -42.1 47.50455 -121.96901 952.0 100.7 LOS 32.2 121.6 693.26 3372.318
KWDK 56 (A) -42.9 47.50455 -121.96956 927.0 72.0 LOS 32.2 121.6 723.25 2992.549
KCPQ 13 (A) -43.3 47.54787 -122.80737 718.0 221.6 LOS 37.3 251.2 211.24 316.000
KWPX 33 (A) -47.4 47.50455 -121.96873 948.2 98.7 LOS 32.2 121.5 585.26 705.558
K68DL 40 (A) -48.2 47.61565 -122.30846 247.0 121.0 LOS 4.9 155.4 627.24 16.508
KCPQ 18 (D) -48.6 47.54787 -122.80737 693.0 196.6 LOS 37.3 251.2 494.31 523.179
KUNS-TV 50 (D) -54.0 47.50455 -121.96901 952.0 100.7 LOS 32.2 121.6 686.31 212.989
KWDK 42 (D) -55.0 47.50455 -121.96956 926.8 71.8 LOS 32.2 121.6 638.31 144.000
KTBW-TV 14 (D) -56.0 47.54704 -122.79570 581.0 80.6 LOS 36.5 250.6 470.31 84.884
KHCV 45 (A) -56.5 47.50455 -121.96956 944.0 89.0 LOS 32.2 121.6 657.26 109.561
KWPX 32 (D) -61.7 47.50455 -121.96873 948.2 98.7 LOS 32.2 121.5 578.31 25.687
KUSE-LP 30 (A) -64.4 47.60454 -122.32235 392.0 286.6 LOS 5.8 169.9 567.25 0.448
KBTC-TV 28 (A) -76.9 47.27871 -122.51290 258.0 143.0 1Edge 44.1 197.5 555.25 604.000
KVOS-TV 12 (A) -83.9 48.67760 -122.83130 771.0 77.5 2Edge 119.8 342.0 205.26 234.000
KBCB 24 (A) -86.6 48.67927 -122.84324 792.6 132.1 2Edge 120.3 341.6 531.25 2408.072
KBTC-TV 27 (D) -87.4 47.27871 -122.51290 274.0 159.0 1Edge 44.1 197.5 548.31 45.000
CHEKTV 6 (A) -92.2 48.77427 -123.17075 904.5 496.0 2Edge 139.5 333.4 83.25 100.000
KVOS-TV 35 (D) -93.8 48.68038 -122.84074 834.7 150.1 2Edge 120.3 341.7 596.31 576.256
KHCV 44 (D) -95.1 47.50455 -121.96956 901.0 46.0 LOS 32.2 121.6 650.31 0.015
KBCB 19 (D) -98.7 48.67927 -122.84324 792.6 132.1 2Edge 120.3 341.6 500.31 128.586

The nearby channels are very strong and arriving from a lot of different directions. Multipath reflections can be a problem and YMMV depending on the quality of the tuner used.

To minimize the possibility of multipath, your best bet is to use a highly directional passive (no pre-amp) antenna on the roof with a motorized rotator (so you can point to the different towers). Next best choice is to go with an omni rooftop antenna to avoid having the rotator, but then you'll be subject to greater amounts of multipath (and corresponding difficulty for your tuner).

Indoor antennas will probably suffer from the greatest amount of multipath, but if it's highly directional and you're able to pick out a signal path with low multipath interference, a good tuner might still be able to pick up the channel.

mentho

02-15-07, 11:28 PM

markkent

02-16-07, 12:12 PM

deconvolver

02-16-07, 01:17 PM

...
I don't get how the signal makes it to the point
where the two short leads from the baluns connect,
given the insulators between the elements.

Thanks,
-mark
From the manual:
http://www.solidsignal.tv/manuals/Crossfiremanual.pdf
it looks like you need to install the connecting rods from the wires that criss-cross between the VHF elements to the top of the bow-tie shaped dipole and the balun connects to the bottom of the dipole. The Crossfire should not perform *that* much differently than your old antenna, I would guess you have it assembled wrong.

andy.s.lee

02-16-07, 02:44 PM

I'm at 700ft elevation. There is a 50' hill about 400 feet away, that obstructs my line-of-sight to Mt.Sutro (San Francisco) but after that it's a straight shot of about 27 miles to Mt.Sutro.
See attached map for digital channel coverage in the Bay Area. It sounds like you're in the hills somewhere to the left of Cupertino. If you can provide approximate coordinates, I can generate a more precise prediction of expected signal strengths.

Five years ago, I put a ChannelMaster 7777 on it and I can get digital CBS, ABC, NBC and KQED, but not Fox-DT and KRON-DT (higher frequency than the
rest)... just as predicted by AntennaWeb. I was hoping that with the newer and better antenna that I'ld generally improve everything and get Fox-DT.

With the CM3671, which I've tried with and without the pre-amp, and with a new cable run direct from antenna to my digital receiver, I get very very poor VHF reception for the analog channels 2-11, and incredibly finicky and not-as-strong-as-before UHF reception for both digital and analog channels. It's unwatchable for all analog channels. If I try real hard, I can get one digital signal at about half previous strength, but then lose the others.

Previously, I could get everything coming off MtSutro with the same position of the antenna.

Now that I've done some reading, I figure the radiation pattern for my old Jerrold must be fat and round, while the pattern (from hdtvprimer) for the cm3671 has peaks and valleys and is much more directional.

If I'm right, then I may be in a position where I would need to optimize the direction, and possibly height, depending on the desired channel. This would not be good.

If so, this tells me that in my exact situation, with my unique geographical position, that a lower-gain antenna with a fat and round radiation pattern may be exactly what I need.
The digital channels in the area come from Sutro, San Bruno, Mt. Diablo, and Monument / Allison Peak. If you are also interested in analog channels, then we should also include Loma Prieta in the discussion. From your location, that means that the channels are mostly coming from the north-west and from the east (and the south-east if you include Loma Prieta).

A single directional antenna cannot capture these signals simultaneously, so you'll either need to install a motorized rotator, install multiple directional antennas with a combiner, or go with a less directional (omni) antenna.

Since you also seem to have terrain blockage in the direction of San Bruno / Sutro, you'll want to install your antenna as high as possible to maximize signal strength. If the obstructing hill is just slightly above your LOS path, even a little bit of antenna height can make a big difference. If you are willing to share your exact coordinates (PM me if you want to keep it private), I can calculate a more accurate signal path.

FCC rules allow you to install antennas up to 12 feet above the roofline essentially without restrictions and higher if your local regulations permit it. For more info on OTA antenna laws, check out ww.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html.

All the signals in the area should be quite strong with the exception of Mt. Diablo and perhaps the blocked signals from San Bruno / Sutro. Assuming you can get past the San Bruno / Sutro blockage, a lower gain omni antenna should work just fine.

markkent

02-16-07, 03:47 PM

>> it looks like you need to install the connecting rods from the wires
>> that criss-cross between the VHF elements to the top of the bow-tie shaped dipole

Where do you read that in that page? Thanks for the pointer, btw.
I looked earlier and found a generic manual that seems like it was
written in the '50s.

Based on the instructions, I did find two things wrong: the bowtie dipole
was not snapped out into position. That seems rather critical :-)

And one spacer was missing in the cross-over assembly that runs down the
main spine, shorting the two runs. I put a glove in there to compensate.

But I don't see where it says that the cross-over assembly connects to the
bowtie dipole...

BTW, I get high-VHF now, not good lo-VHF, and no real UHF to speak of.

Thanks,
-mark

holl_ands

02-16-07, 04:40 PM

Thanks for the help texasbrit, holl_ands and andy.s.lee. I think I might take back the antenna I bought and buy one of the ones you suggest. Seems like I could probably install a small antenna outside, though I still wouldn't get LoS, perhaps there would be less stuff between the antenna and the source. I'll ditch the amplifier I have on my antenna -- what are the risks/consequences with overloading my tuner? I'm using an ATI 650 Tuner card in my computer.

Thanks so much.
Overload doesn't cause physical damage...

"High" input levels (fraction of a milliwatt) will generate intermodulation distortion
all across the band that makes it difficult/impossible to receive moderate to weak stations.

holl_ands

02-16-07, 07:46 PM

I just replaced a possibly 30 year old Jerrold antenna
with a CM3671... and get vastly degraded signal,
all over the spectrum.

I'm at 700ft elevation. There is a 50' hill about
400 feet away, that obstructs my line-of-sight to
Mt.Sutro (San Francisco) but after that it's a
straight shot of about 27 miles to Mt.Sutro.

Here is a picture of the old beat up antenna
(it's missing some elements and others are dangling):

http://a.mainstreet.net/antenna.jpg

Five years ago, I put a ChannelMaster 7777 on it
and I can get digital CBS, ABC, NBC and KQED, but
not Fox-DT and KRON-DT (higher frequency than the
rest)... just as predicted by AntennaWeb.
I was hoping that with the newer and better antenna
that I'ld generally improve everything and get Fox-DT.

With the CM3671, which I've tried with and without
the pre-amp, and with a new cable run direct from
antenna to my digital receiver, I get very very
poor VHF reception for the analog channels 2-11,
and incredibly finicky and not-as-strong-as-before
UHF reception for both digital and analog channels.
It's unwatchable for all analog channels. If I try
real hard, I can get one digital signal at about
half previous strength, but then lose the others.

Previously, I could get everything coming off
MtSutro with the same position of the antenna.

But I do have a question about the antenna... there
are two spots where the baluns could attach.
One on the top side, and one on the under-side.
Should there be any difference in which one is
used?

I have to admit that I don't "get" antennas. I get
dishes, visually I can see how they focus a beam.
I don't get how the signal makes it to the point
where the two short leads from the baluns connect,
given the insulators between the elements.

Thanks,
-mark
In your Jerrold picture, we can see that the Jerrold is actually two antennas--
ne for VHF and a second for UHF.
The front part is for UHF and the larger elements are for VHF.

It looks like the "driven" element in the Jerrold's VHF section is a folded dipole
(the one that forms a loop, just behind the UHF section)....
And elements with increasing length behind it appear to be fed via dual boom method.

=================================
The CM3671 Crossfire has VHF elements of two different lengths that target both
the low-band (CH2-6) and hi-band (CH7-13) channels.
I haven't used one (and the manual isn't very clear), but from fol. NEC simulation data (see gif's),
it appears that there is a single balun feeding a combo VHF/UHF antenna:
http://hometown.aol.com/kq6qv/SIMS/
The VHF signal goes THROUGH bottom of UHF Folded Dipole element and out the top,
where there are TWO feed pairs (CM calls them "connecting rods") going to the rear of the antenna,
apparently for the lo-VHF (long length) and hi-VHF (medium length) elements respectively.

Perhaps other owners can help re how it's supposed to be connected.....

======================================
To help you "get" antennas, note that the front is a "Corner Reflector Yagi" type
for the UHF band, similar to the fol.:
http://www.lashen.com/vendors/winegard/pdf/pr-9018.pdf

The balun connects to the "driven" element (usually a "folded dipole"), which is located
in front of the "corner reflector".
The "corner reflector" is formed by the element just behind the "driven" element and the
collection of elements above and below the boom.

In the UHF band, the "corner reflector" focuses the signal onto the active 'driven" element,
similar to how a dish works.
The elements in front of the "driven" element steadily decrease in size and will narrow
the beamwidth and thereby generate more gain.

The "back" (big) part of both antennas is a Log Periodic Dipole Array (LPDA) type
antenna structure for the VHF band.
There are two kinds of feed structures for interconnecting the active elements:
dual-boom feed and zig-zag feed. The two kinds can be seen in this tutorial re LPDA Antennas:
http://62.181.33.2/pub/hamradio/ru3dnn/RU3DNN-DISK%203/ANTENNA/Anntenna%20Book/chap10.pdf

In the dual-boom feed structure, elements are connected alternatively to one boom and
the remaining to the other boom.
In the zig-zag feed structure, a pair of zig-zagging wires, interconnect alternate elements.

If you trace the feed structures, you may or may not find that the UHF and VHF sections
are interconnected....and in others they are designed with separate VHF and UHF connections.

Separate connections allow the user to use just a UHF Preamp, followed by a VHF/UHF Diplexer.
To use an antenna with separate VHF and UHF antenna connections with a Preamp which only
has combined VHF/UHF Preamp inputs, you'll need some short jumper wires.
Fortunately, the CM7777 can be used either with separate VHF and UHF connections (need two baluns),
or can be attached via a single balun if the antenna can be configured as a combined VHF/UHF unit.

The fol. manual for the CM3014-3020 clearly shows the separate VHF and UHF
connections in Fig 6 and 6A respectively:
http://www.pctusa.net/channelmaster/prev/_pdfs/manual_3014_20.pdf

=========================================
Fol. antenna tutorials comes from unusual sources, but it beats buying a book:
http://ece.uprm.edu/~pol/AntennaIntro.pdf
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/185030a.pdf
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/185030b.pdf
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/185030c.pdf
http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/185030d.pdf

Eggplant Jeff

02-16-07, 08:46 PM

andyk45

02-17-07, 12:45 AM

andy.s.lee

02-17-07, 02:26 AM

Does anyone know what an impedance mismatch looks like on analog TV? I have a repeated ghost (of the main image), 1/4 inch to the right of the image, then a fainter ghost 1/4 to the right, then a fainter one 1/4 inch to the right, etc. With the right picture (say a nice crisp color on black background) I can see 4 or 5 of them. They're present on every station, so I don't think it is a normal multipath ghost.

The reason I'm asking about analog is because my digital reception isn't great, and I'm trying to diagnose it...

Supposedly mismatched impedance can cause "reflections" of the signal, but I haven't seen any description of what that looks like in TV terms.
Impedance mismatch can cause the symptoms you are describing, but to have so many reflections showing up means that you probably have a mismatch at both ends of a fairly long cable run. I'm not sure how big 1/4 inch is relative to your screen size, but if I were to make a rough guess, I'd say your looking at reflections along about 130 feet of cable. It's possibly a scenario of signal hitting an impedance mismatch at the bottom (near your receiver), reflecting back toward the antenna, reflecting again at the top (near the antenna), and repeating this until the signal level has attenuated enough become unnoticable.

However, in order to have as many visible ghosts as you are seeing, there must be a rather big impedance mismatch. What is the impedance of your antenna, the cable, and your termination point (tuner, distribution amp, or whatever you might have)? And are you using any baluns?

Also what problem is caused by combining the leads from UHF and VHF antennas together without using a splitter/combiner? Do you get more noise, interference, what? I've tried it both ways without seeing a huge difference, but that could be that my cheapo radio shack combiner doesn't actually do much.
In the worst case, connecting UHF and VHF antennas together electrically can alter the radiation pattern, gain, and frequency response of either or both of the antennas. The magnitude of the change depends on the relative positioning / orientation of the antenna elements. Antennas that are close to each other (especially if one is "in front" of the other) are more likely to affect each others' characteristics.

This may or may not affect you depending on how much you rely on the antennas having a particular radiation pattern / gain / frequency response (i.e., if you have several strong signals coming from many directions, a lower gain omnidirectional pattern might not be such a bad thing). It's less "clean" if you care about these things and you might have a harder time fine tuning the antennas since the radiation pattern might not be what you expect any more.

A good combiner (or better yet, a diplexer) will have several dB of isolation between its inputs and therefore will have much less electrical coupling between each of the antennas.

andy.s.lee

02-17-07, 05:43 AM

Looking for some advice on an indoor antenna that will pull in some stations for me. I bought a silver sensor and am only able to pull in wews from cleveland. Would some thing like the DB2 be better or somrthing else, also would an amp help me out. My zip is 44685 and below are the results I got from the website. Thanks
Here's an alternative prediction of channels for your zip code:
Callsgn Channel Type Rx_dBm Path Dist Azimuth Freq Tx_EIRP
WVPX 23 (A) -33.1 LOS 17.6 309.7 525.26 4874.885
WDLI-TV 17 (A) -43.4 LOS 17.7 305.3 489.24 423.741
WOAC 67 (A) -44.1 LOS 17.7 23.8 789.25 4369.973
WVPX 59 (D) -44.7 LOS 17.6 309.7 740.31 608.762
WEAO 49 (A) -47.6 LOS 22.2 306.7 681.26 692.000
WDLI-TV 39 (D) -48.1 LOS 17.7 305.3 620.31 200.000
WOIO 19 (A) -49.4 LOS 52.6 334.0 501.25 3435.723
WBNX-TV 55 (A) -50.0 LOS 52.2 333.8 717.24 4729.084
WKYC-TV 3 (A) -51.7 LOS 52.2 334.5 61.25 93.300
WOAC 47 (D) -51.8 LOS 17.7 23.8 668.31 810.439
WEAO 50 (D) -53.5 LOS 22.2 306.7 686.31 180.000
WKYC-TV 2 (D) -62.2 LOS 52.2 334.5 54.31 8.000
WNEO 45 (A) -67.7 1Edge 43.3 98.5 657.26 1820.000
WEWS-TV 5 (A) -68.1 1Edge 52.1 331.4 77.26 93.300
WJW 8 (A) -68.3 1Edge 50.9 330.9 181.26 236.000
WVIZ 25 (A) -71.2 1Edge 49.9 327.5 537.26 2041.894
WBNX-TV 30 (D) -72.2 1Edge 52.2 333.8 566.31 989.518
WQHS-TV 61 (A) -72.9 1Edge 52.4 333.3 753.25 2000.000
WUAB 43 (A) -73.9 1Edge 52.7 331.6 645.25 2235.081
WOIO 10 (D) -75.7 LOS 52.6 334.0 192.31 2.362
W63CH 18 (A) -76.1 LOS 17.0 19.0 495.26 1.588
WEWS-TV 15 (D) -76.9 1Edge 52.1 331.4 476.31 870.000
WJW 31 (D) -77.7 1Edge 50.9 330.9 572.31 625.000
WQHS-TV 34 (D) -79.3 1Edge 52.3 333.2 590.31 338.375
WUAB 28 (D) -85.0 1Edge 52.7 331.6 554.31 110.007
WKBN-TV 27 (A) -88.9 2Edge 65.9 81.0 549.25 871.000
WNEO 46 (D) -90.4 2Edge 43.3 98.5 662.31 17.497
WAOH-LP 29 (A) -91.3 LOS 17.0 19.0 561.25 0.055
W35AX 35 (A) -92.9 1Edge 52.2 333.8 597.25 10.224
WKBN-TV 41 (D) -93.5 2Edge 65.9 81.0 632.31 700.000
WFMJ-TV 21 (A) -95.0 2Edge 66.8 78.8 513.24 2770.380
WXOX-LP 44 (A) -98.3 2Edge 52.2 333.9 651.26 8.298

The attached radar plot summarizes this information visually. Longer bars mean stronger signals. Short bars in the "red zone" are weaker and probably require an external directional antenna to pick up. Distances are in km, Azimuth is relative to true north (not magnetic north).

Many of the channels in your area are borderline, which means that they will be difficult to pick up with an indoor antenna on the ground floor of a building. You'll want to put your antenna as high as possible. Second floor would be better, attic is even better. If you really want a lot of channels, install an antenna on the roof.

If you restrict yourself to indoor antennas, you'll want one with as much gain as possible since most of the channels will be rather weak indoors. In that respect, I'm sure the DB2 will perform better than the Silver Sensor (aesthetics aside). The DB2 is a directional antenna, so you may need to re-point the antenna depending on which group of transmitters you're trying to get.

An amplifier should not be necessary if the cable length is short. If you are running a longer cable or are splitting the signal to multiple destinations, then you'll want a "small" pre-amp (10-15 dB gain should be enough) installed as close to the antenna as possible. If you've just got the antenna going directly to the TV, don't bother with any amp.

Eggplant Jeff

02-17-07, 08:23 AM

I'm not sure how big 1/4 inch is relative to your screen size, but if I were to make a rough guess, I'd say your looking at reflections along about 130 feet of cable.

It's not a big screen, 26". The cable run is about 35 feet, however, the cable isn't a great setup. I need to get to the hardware store and buy some bulk RG6 and connectors... I used what I had on hand, so the wiring actually looks like this:
Antenna > balun (300/75 twin lead to coax) > 3ft RG6 > 25ft RG59 > splitter > 6ft RG59 > TV.

The other half the splitter is split again and goes to a tuner and an FM radio (for the radio I figured an antenna's an antenna, I'm not too concerned with great radio reception).

Now before you all start laughing at me, this is my first time setting up an antenna / wiring setup so I prefer constructive rather than sarcastic criticism. :o

However, in order to have as many visible ghosts as you are seeing, there must be a rather big impedance mismatch. What is the impedance of your antenna, the cable, and your termination point (tuner, distribution amp, or whatever you might have)? And are you using any baluns?

One balun, mentioned above. How do I measure impedance? My antenna setup is two T2FDs, one sized for VHF, one sized for UHF and nestled inside the larger one (I thought this would be less likely to cause interference between 'em because they're receiving at basically the exact same location, but is that wrong?). Supposedly they are a 300 ohm just like any twin-lead antenna but I built 'em myself and have not measured it.

Thanks for the info!

P.s. on most stations most of the time, you only notice the first ghost. It's only if you look closely at a picture with a good foreground/background constrast that you can make out the others.

afiggatt

02-17-07, 11:24 AM

Looking for some advice on an indoor antenna that will pull in some stations for me. I bought a silver sensor and am only able to pull in wews from cleveland. Would some thing like the DB2 be better or somrthing else, also would an amp help me out. My zip is 44685 and below are the results I got from the website. Thanks

I plugged in your zip code and an antenna height of 75' to make up for where ever the center of your zip code is. Your list is hard to read because it has both digital and analog stations. Here is an edited list of your the digital stations only :

* yellow - uhf WDLI-DT 39.1 TBN CANTON OH 313° 11.0 39
* yellow - uhf WEAO-DT 50.1 PBS AKRON OH 314° 13.8 50
* yellow - uhf WEWS-DT 5.1 ABC CLEVELAND OH 339° 32.2 15
* yellow - uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON OH 342° 32.3 30
* yellow - uhf WVPX-DT 59 ION AKRON OH TBD 317° 10.9 59
* green - uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland OH 341° 32.4 34
* green - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 342° 32.3 2 <----- VHF 2! -----
* lt green - vhf WOIO-DT 19.1 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 342° 32.6 10
* red - uhf WJW-DT 8.1 FOX CLEVELAND OH 339° 31.6 31
* red - uhf WUAB-DT 43.1 MNT LORAIN OH 339° 32.6 28
* blue - uhf WKBN-DT 27.1 CBS YOUNGSTOWN OH 88° 40.9 41
* violet - uhf WFMJ-DT 21.1 NBC YOUNGSTOWN OH 86° 41.5 20

You are around 33 miles from the major network stations in Cleveland/Akron which are spread around 25 degrees in azimuth. WKYC-DT NBC 3 is broadcasting digitally all the way down at VHF 2! The CBS station, WOIO-DT 19 is broadcasting on VHF 10. You need an VHF antenna to get those 2 stations. Rabbit ears might get them, but at 33 miles, you probably need something more substantial.

For starters, have you move the Silver Sensor to a window facing NW? Moved it to a higher point to see if you can pick up some more stations? Might pick up a couple more stations that way. But at 33 miles, you need to be thinking along the lines of an antenna mounted in the attic, upstairs if that works, outside, or on the roof. With the NBC station at VHF 3, you need a full range VHF/UHF antenna. The good news is that in 2009, after the analog shutdown, WKYC-DT NBC will be moving it's digital broadcast to UHF 17. WJW-DT Fox 8 will be moving it's digital broadcast to VHF 8. So in 2009, you won't need low VHF reception, but until then, you do.

With the stations at yellow, green & red, you only need a short-medium range VHF/UHF antenna, not a massive & very directional long range one. If you really want to stick with indoors, you could try an amplified Silver Sensor with rabbit ears combo (look for Philips HDTV3 at Circuit City), but keep the receipt as you may need to return it.

markkent

02-17-07, 11:42 AM

>> where there are TWO feed pairs (CM calls them "connecting rods")
>> going to the rear of the antenna,

My antenna is missing those. I made the connections using some wire and
now, not surprisingly, I get VHF. BTW, this lack of electrical connection,
which I figured was by design, was part of the reason that I earlier typed
that I didn't "get" antenna. It makes a lot more sense now.

So, here's a review of what was wrong with my "professional" install:

a) VHF part of antenna not connected electrically to terminal leads
(step 1 of instructions)
b) Spacer not installed as indicated in step 3 of instructions, thus shorting the
two sides of VHF antenna.
c) Bow-tie dipole, which appears to be the focal point of the UHF assembly,
not opened to "installed" position.

I still get poor UHF. Can't get 5-1, 7-1, 9-1. Surprisingly, I get brief glimpses of
4-1 (higher freq. UHF, ch. 57). Previously I had fairly wide latitude for the now
missing channels... I had maybe 30 degrees of play where I could still get them.
Now they barely trigger the signal meter on the receiver.

I'll be trying different heights today.

Thanks,
-mark

Rick0725

02-17-07, 01:21 PM

Kerry Cozad measured +2 dBd gain for CH2, 4 and 6 on a real CM4228....
Or about what a folded dipole provides after you account for some "ground bounce gain" in Cozad's measurements.

I would try it and see what diffracts over (and around) that hill--which is easier for VHF--after all towers are only 18 miles away.

It would be of interest to know what kind of antenna is currently used for CH6 and below.....
And how well it works...

And if it doesn't work, he can use a separate (existing?) VHF antenna with a UHF/VHF Hybrid Combiner for the CM4228.

cm4228 for low land vhf?

I have a ch 3 and a ch 5 here and the reception was poopey with the cm4228 and preamp.

yellow - WSTM 3 NBC SYRACUSE NY 189° 14.9 3
yellow - WTVH 5 CBS SYRACUSE NY 187° 14.2 5

with ch 9 not bad
yellow - vhf WSYR 9 ABC SYRACUSE NY 172° 15.8 9

I'm yellow!

why do you folks continue to suggest a uhf antenna to receive vhf. I can accept trying a cm4228 for high band vhf maybe up to red with an amp...but come on.

do you install antennas or do you rehash what you read.

what works for one user may not work for another.

a user wants an antenna that would work great for them. no hypotheticals are allowed.

Neil L

02-17-07, 05:32 PM

The CM 4228 is NOT a VHF antenna, but it will pick up strong signals on channel 3. I have an analog station on channel 3 that is 70 miles away, and I can usually get a very snowy signal from that station. There is a channel 5 the same distance away that I never pick up at all with the 4228. I did get a weak picture from a distant channel 2 once or twice during tropo conditions. So a 4228 can pick up a low VHF station, but I don't think it has any gain over a dipole at those frequencies. A tuned dipole would probably be better.

F.Carver

02-17-07, 10:20 PM

Newbie here on this forum.

I have a puzzling situation here. I live in zip code 15417, About 40 miles S of Pittsburgh, PA and about the same distance N of Morgantown, WV.

I have used a regular antenna with a radio shack preamp on the mast for years to pick up standard analog broadcasts.

I had the chance to hook up two different TVs to pick up digital signals.

The first was a Samsung plasma EDTV and I was able to get channels 4.1, 11.1, 11.2, 13.1 and 24.1 with pretty strong signals. Sometimes they would break up when the signal was weak. (It had a signal meter built in).

I was also able to get 13.2, 24.2, and 24.3 on occasion, but they were always weak. Atmospheric conditions?

Now I have a Visio LCD hooked up and it picks up 2.1 the best - a station I could never get with the other set. It also picks up 4.1, 11.1 and 11.2 occasionally, but I can never figure out why. Often, when it picks up these stations, it won't get 2.1 at all.

Is this due to the tuners in the two different sets? Is there a way to tell which TVs have better tuners before i would buy one?

What do I need to do the antenna to get the best reception in my area?
Here's a list from a website - I forget which one - that lists local stations, the direction from my house, and the distance to the station.

TV Stations – Degrees and Distance

red - uhfWNPB24PBS MORGANTOWNWV 169° 22.724

*red - uhfWNPB-DT24.1PBS MORGANTOWNWV 169° 22.733

red - vhfWTAE4ABC PITTSBURGHPA 24° 19.84

*blue - uhfWTAE-DT4.1ABC PITTSBURGHPA 24° 19.851

blue - uhfWPMY22WB PITTSBURGHPA 26° 31.622

blue - uhfWPCW19UPN JEANNETTE PA 81° 41.119

blue - uhfWPCB40FMN GREENSBURGPA 22° 27.540

blue - uhfWWAT-CA45BOX UNIONTOWN PA 148° 17.645

violet - uhfWPGH53FOX PITTSBURGHPA 0° 34.253

violet - vhfWTOV9NBC STEUBENVILLEOH 310° 44.39

violet - vhfWPXI11NBC PITTSBURGH PA 359° 32.111

violet - vhfKDKA2CBS PITTSBURGH PA 358° 34.22

violet - uhfW56CG56IND GREENSBURGPA 47° 26.356

violet - vhfWJAC6NBC JOHNSTOWNPA 71° 54.96

violet - vhfWQED13PBS PITTSBURGHPA 3° 30.613

violet - uhfWQEX16HSN PITTSBURGHPA 3° 30.616

violet - vhfWWCP8FOX JOHNSTOWNPA 81° 41.78

My sincere apologies if this is in the wrong thread or if I failed to provide pertinent info. I did read the stickies that I thought would apply.

Thanks in advance for any info!

andy.s.lee

02-18-07, 02:33 AM

It's not a big screen, 26". The cable run is about 35 feet, however, the cable isn't a great setup. I need to get to the hardware store and buy some bulk RG6 and connectors... I used what I had on hand, so the wiring actually looks like this:
Antenna > balun (300/75 twin lead to coax) > 3ft RG6 > 25ft RG59 > splitter > 6ft RG59 > TV.

The other half the splitter is split again and goes to a tuner and an FM radio (for the radio I figured an antenna's an antenna, I'm not too concerned with great radio reception).

Now before you all start laughing at me, this is my first time setting up an antenna / wiring setup so I prefer constructive rather than sarcastic criticism. :o
Do you still get the reflections if you eliminate the splitters and go directly into the TV only? Just make sure that the other branches of the distribution network are not adding to the problem (i.e., perhaps a mismatched FM receiver termination) by testing with only a single feed going directly into the TV.

Since there are so many visible after-images, it's possible there's more than just impedance mismatches causing problems. A poor connection along the way can create a high-impedance reflection point along the path. The outer conductor of the coax could also be acting as part of the antenna and re-radiating the signal. Lots of strange things can happen with RF, so nobody should be laughing...

If you still get the after-images with only the TV, the next step is to check for the simple things first. Are all the connections good? Make sure they are snug, but do not over-tighten. If any of the cables are hand-made, are the connectors attached securely to the cable (e.g., is the coax braid making good contact with sleeve of the F-type connector)?

Sometimes, even the simplest off-the-shelf parts can cause grief. I once had a right-angle F-type connector adaptor that had an internal impedance problem. I never suspected the part, but after hours of testing every other component of the system, I finally fixed the system by swapping out the $2 part.

Another thing to try is attaching rabbit ear antennas directly to the TV, thus bypassing anything in your antenna and distribution network. If the ghosts still show up the same way with rabbit ears, then it's possible that the problem is environmentally generated and is not caused by anything wrong in your setup.

Experiment some more and let us know what you find...

One balun, mentioned above. How do I measure impedance? My antenna setup is two T2FDs, one sized for VHF, one sized for UHF and nestled inside the larger one (I thought this would be less likely to cause interference between 'em because they're receiving at basically the exact same location, but is that wrong?). Supposedly they are a 300 ohm just like any twin-lead antenna but I built 'em myself and have not measured it.
A T2FD antenna's impedance is dependent on the value of the terminating resistor between the elements. To make the impedance at the feed point 300 ohms, the terminating resistor is supposed to be about 390 ohms. The antenna can have a 600 ohm impedance if the terminating resistor has a value of about 650 ohms. The antenna's impedance is not automatically 300 ohms unless it's made to be that way. A plain folded dipole would be 300 ohms.

Measuring antenna impedance is not very straightforward. With fancy lab equipment (i.e., RF network analyzers) it can be a snap, but it's more tricky if you don't have access to those kinds of tools. A reasonably quick and cheaper alternative is to get an portable antenna analyzer like those used by ham radio operators (e.g., Autek RF5 VHF Analyzer). These kinds of tools have all the built-in HW and algorithms to give you a direct reading of your antenna's impedance, but they cost about $200-300. If you know all the physical and electrical characteristics of your antenna, it's also possible to have software compute the impedance once the model has been entered. There are many other techniques for getting the impedance of an antenna, but you'll be diving into a lot of antenna theory and technologies that are probably beyond the scope of this forum and what you're trying to achieve.

I'd say the bottom line is that you don't need to know your antenna's impedance. If you know or can estimate the impedance of your antennas, having an approximate match is good enough. No need to spend your time or money trying to find the perfect impedance match.

BTW, having one antenna nested inside the other will affect the antennas. Placing antennas in close proximity to each other can change the reactance / impedance / frequency response of the antenna as well as radiation pattern. It will probably require direct measurement or simulation in order to tell how much the antenna's characteristics have been altered from their free-space equivalent.

P.s. on most stations most of the time, you only notice the first ghost. It's only if you look closely at a picture with a good foreground/background constrast that you can make out the others.
This is actually encouraging to hear. A small number of visible ghosts is more typical of real-world multipath. This could mean that your ghosting is caused by the environment rather than your antennas.

You had mentioned earlier that you didn't think this was normal multipath because it seemed to affect all the channels the same way. You're right that the ghosts will most likely look different for channels coming from different directions, but it's something that should be checked.

At my office, our building happens to be at exactly the right place to receive TV reflections off a three story office building (with metallic window film, making it an excellent RF reflector) about a block away. I work with TV signals as part of my job, which is why I know. The reflected signals are actually approximately the same power as the LOS signal, which creates a very visible double image. All the channels from that transmitter cluster (over 20 channels) were affected the same way.

If your neighborhood has multi-story buildings with large flat surfaces, then you might be seeing the reflections off of them.

The best way to combat multipath (if you have an idea which direction the reflections are coming from) is to use directional antennas to pick out only the direct path signal. Since T2FD antennas are "omnidirectional", they don't discriminate between any of the multipath signals and hence you're more likely to see all the reflected signals floating around your area.

Again, if the rabbit ears test from above shows the same ghosting, then you are probably dealing with multipath rather than anything in your antenna setup. You may want to do that test first before spending any time fiddling with your entire antenna network.

If you are dealing with multipath, then you may need to consider a different kind of antenna arrangement and forego the T2FD antennas.

Rick0725

02-18-07, 09:11 AM

What do I need to do the antenna to get the best reception in my area?
Here's a list from a website - I forget which one - that lists local stations, the direction from my house, and the distance to the station.

F.Carver
your digital reception will be affected by your local geography being in the adirondack area.

suggest the antennas direct 91xg antenna, cm7777 preamp and rotor. do not suggest the cm4228 since it tames multipath poorly.

in 2009

wwcp is going from ch 29 to ch8
wqed is going from ch 38 to ch13

at this time you would need to add a winegard ya0713 or antenna craft y10 7-13.

if you do not desire 2 antennas suggest the winegard hd7084P or hd8200p

before you "pimp your antenna ride"...run a coax direct from the antenna and preamp to a tv . if the signal is satisfactory there lies an issue within your antenna setup. If not satisfied time to order new stuff.

woodsmith

02-18-07, 09:35 AM

Hi, I think I am just going to get an Wingard SS-1000 and have it mounted on my existing Dish Network sat pole. It appears it should do fine. I'll let you know how everything works out. Thanks for all the help. Jeff

woodsmith

02-18-07, 09:36 AM

andyk45

02-18-07, 11:35 AM

I plugged in your zip code and an antenna height of 75' to make up for where ever the center of your zip code is. Your list is hard to read because it has both digital and analog stations. Here is an edited list of your the digital stations only :

* yellow - uhf WDLI-DT 39.1 TBN CANTON OH 313° 11.0 39
* yellow - uhf WEAO-DT 50.1 PBS AKRON OH 314° 13.8 50
* yellow - uhf WEWS-DT 5.1 ABC CLEVELAND OH 339° 32.2 15
* yellow - uhf WBNX-DT 55.1 CW AKRON OH 342° 32.3 30
* yellow - uhf WVPX-DT 59 ION AKRON OH TBD 317° 10.9 59
* green - uhf WQHS-DT 61.1 UNI Cleveland OH 341° 32.4 34
* green - vhf WKYC-DT 3.1 NBC CLEVELAND OH 342° 32.3 2 <----- VHF 2! -----
* lt green - vhf WOIO-DT 19.1 CBS SHAKER HEIGHTS OH 342° 32.6 10
* red - uhf WJW-DT 8.1 FOX CLEVELAND OH 339° 31.6 31
* red - uhf WUAB-DT 43.1 MNT LORAIN OH 339° 32.6 28
* blue - uhf WKBN-DT 27.1 CBS YOUNGSTOWN OH 88° 40.9 41
* violet - uhf WFMJ-DT 21.1 NBC YOUNGSTOWN OH 86° 41.5 20

You are around 33 miles from the major network stations in Cleveland/Akron which are spread around 25 degrees in azimuth. WKYC-DT NBC 3 is broadcasting digitally all the way down at VHF 2! The CBS station, WOIO-DT 19 is broadcasting on VHF 10. You need an VHF antenna to get those 2 stations. Rabbit ears might get them, but at 33 miles, you probably need something more substantial.

For starters, have you move the Silver Sensor to a window facing NW? Moved it to a higher point to see if you can pick up some more stations? Might pick up a couple more stations that way. But at 33 miles, you need to be thinking along the lines of an antenna mounted in the attic, upstairs if that works, outside, or on the roof. With the NBC station at VHF 3, you need a full range VHF/UHF antenna. The good news is that in 2009, after the analog shutdown, WKYC-DT NBC will be moving it's digital broadcast to UHF 17. WJW-DT Fox 8 will be moving it's digital broadcast to VHF 8. So in 2009, you won't need low VHF reception, but until then, you do.

With the stations at yellow, green & red, you only need a short-medium range VHF/UHF antenna, not a massive & very directional long range one. If you really want to stick with indoors, you could try an amplified Silver Sensor with rabbit ears combo (look for Philips HDTV3 at Circuit City), but keep the receipt as you may need to return it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the help guys, I need to stick indoors so I think I will try the amped silver sensor for now.

Thanks

tnic

02-18-07, 04:49 PM

your response on best antenna (exact name) to get. I agree with the bigger, higher outside mantra. Main issue where I live is trees.

red - uhf WUPL 54 MNT SLIDELL LA 120° 13.6 54
blue - uhf WNOL 38 CW NEW ORLEANS LA 161° 29.3 38
blue - uhf WGNO 26 ABC NEW ORLEANS LA 161° 29.3 26
blue - uhf WLAE 32 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA 161° 29.3 32
violet - vhf WDSU 6 NBC NEW ORLEANS LA 163° 31.4 6
* violet - uhf WUPL-DT 54.1 MNT SLIDELL LA 120° 13.6 24
violet - vhf WWL 4 CBS NEW ORLEANS LA 173° 33.4 4
violet - vhf WVUE 8 FOX NEW ORLEANS LA 162° 31.3 8

F.Carver

02-18-07, 05:15 PM

F.Carver
your digital reception will be affected by your local geography being in the adirondack area.

suggest the antennas direct 91xg antenna, cm7777 preamp and rotor. do not suggest the cm4228 since it tames multipath poorly.

in 2009

wwcp is going from ch 29 to ch8
wqed is going from ch 38 to ch13

at this time you would need to add a winegard ya0713 or antenna craft y10 7-13.

if you do not desire 2 antennas suggest the winegard hd7084P or hd8200p

before you "pimp your antenna ride"...run a coax direct from the antenna and preamp to a tv . if the signal is satisfactory there lies an issue within your antenna setup. If not satisfied time to order new stuff.

Rick0725 - Thanks for the reply! I appreciate it a lot.

I think I've done it before, but I put a coax feed directly into the DTV connection instead of through the splitter.. I got the same channels. 4.1, 11.1, and 11.2 - no more channels than through the splitter.

I may have a slightly better signal with the direct feed - It seemed to break up a little less on a hockey game. Right now it goes into a 4way splitter (one lead for each of the tuners in the LCD TV, one to the VCR, and one to a TV in a bedroom.) I tried a powered splitter from radio shack about a month ago and didn't notice any signal improvement, so I took it back.

The question that really puzzles me is this. Why do I get different stations with the two different TVs with the exact same antenna setup?

Channel 2 Analog TV is usually the most degraded image of all the analog stations I watch. Channel 2.1 digital TV never came in on the Samsung digital, but 2.1 usually is the strongest signal of all the DTV stations on the LCD. Then again, occasionally it doesn't come in at all.

On the other hand, The Samsung plasma always picked up 11.1 and 13.1, but the Visio LCD only gets 11.1 occasionally and never has picked up 13.1.

I just thought of something. The Samsung had only one coax connection. The Visio has two - one for analog and a separate one for digital. Would that matter?

Is this an antenna problem or is this the tuners?

Oh - FYI the rooftop antenna is a big one that looks like the large winegard models. It has two beams down the center. At the front, they go into a plastic box and a single square beam goes out the front. This beam has horizontal, flat, wedge shaped pieces of aluminum with the tips bent 90 degrees down. There is no corner reflector.

The middle section has narrower pieces of aluminum in the shape of a capital H with the top left and lower right projections cut off. These are riveted in place.

The back section has progressively longer tubes projecting out perpendicular to the beams. Some of these tubes have short tubes mounted about 3" away and parallel to the main tubes.

There is a 2 foot section of 300 ohm heavy flat antenna cable from the antenna to the preamp. From there down, it is 25 feet of coax to the inside preamp box. By the way, If I unplug the preamp while the TV is on, the picture turns to static in about 1 second.

From there it goes to the splitter described above and the TV and VCR are only 2-3 feet further - except for the bedroom TV with 50 feet of cable.

Once again - Thanks for any help! I really appreciate it!

afiggatt

02-18-07, 05:34 PM

your response on best antenna (exact name) to get. I agree with the bigger, higher outside mantra. Main issue where I live is trees.
If you post your zip code, we can be of more help. Your antennaweb list has only 1 digital station. You should also check with the New Orleans local thread to see what antennas people are using in your area.

tnic

02-18-07, 06:30 PM

70471. Thanks

afiggatt

02-18-07, 11:02 PM

70471. Thanks
The antennaweb results for your zip code for the digital stations (edited a bit) are:

* green - uhf WPXL-DT 26.1 ION NEW ORLEANS LA 173° 33.4 50
* green - uhf WVUE-DT 8.1 FOX NEW ORLEANS LA 165° 31.8 29
* green - uhf WDSU-DT 6.1 NBC NEW ORLEANS LA 166° 32.0 43
* red - uhf WWL-DT 4.1 CBS NEW ORLEANS LA 175° 34.2 36
* red - uhf WUPL-DT 54.1 MNT SLIDELL LA 126° 13.2 24
* red - uhf WNOL-DT 38.1 CW NEW ORLEANS LA 164° 30.0 40
* red - uhf WGNO-DT 26.1 ABC NEW ORLEANS LA 164° 30.0 15
* red - uhf WLAE-DT 31 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA FCC Ext 164° 29.9 31
* red - vhf WYES-DT 12.1 PBS NEW ORLEANS LA 165° 31.9 11
* red - uhf WHNO-DT 20.1 IND NEW ORLEANS LA 173° 33.4 21

You have one station, WYES-DT PBS 12 broadcasting on VHF 11, the rest are currently at UHF. Except for WUPL-DT My Network 54 station in Slidell, the stations are in a 10 degree spread in azimuth at around 30 miles. Looking at a FCC spreadsheet, WVUE-DT Fox 8 will be switching it's digital broadcast to upper VHF 8 in 2009 after the analog shutdown. Pretty straightforward case for medium range directional antenna or antennas which can receive UHF and upper VHF 7 to 13. Lots of viable choices here from Channel Master, Winegard, Radio Shack, AntennasDirect.

Dieter2

02-19-07, 05:17 PM

cpcat

02-20-07, 06:50 PM

Does anyone in the US sell Soontai products?

For example:

BPF - 174-216 (bandpass filter)
HPF - 174 (high pass filter)
HPF - 470
LPF - 216 (low pass filter)
DPX1 - 265/470 (diplexer)

Or similar products from other companies?

Thanks

http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf

or

http://www.tinlee.com (Canada) for more custom/specific needs.

AntAltMike

02-20-07, 08:56 PM

Does anyone in the US sell Soontai products?

You can buy direct if you'll take 500 of the same item. You wouldn't believe how low their prices are in that quantity.

jaceace32

02-21-07, 01:45 AM

Hey guys, i've been searching like crazy for the discontinued Radio Shack 15-1862 antenna.. Does anyone happen to have an extra lying around or know if some radio shacks still carry them?

-Jonathan

Dieter2

02-21-07, 02:23 PM

Thanks for the reply, cpcat.

I am trying to eliminate interference. Filters are the obvious method,
but lacking that, a diplexor with better rejection might help.

I already have the Picomacom diplexors. They are okay, but the Soontai
ones look like they would be better. The Picomacom UVSJ claims 23 dB rejection,
Soontai claims better than 45 dB rejection.

The Tinlee products claim good specs, but are custom and priced accordingly.

The Soontai products have good specs. They appear to be mass produced rather
than custom, so they should be less expensive than Tinlee. Doesn't anyone in
the US sell Soontai products? Is Soontai the only company that mass produces
filters?

cpcat

02-21-07, 07:14 PM

I don't know exactly what you are trying to do, but you can always gang two filters in series for added rejection. I use the high side of a Pico HLSJ as a front end filter on my antenna (in addition to the front end filtering already on the preamp) and also use another down-line for both added filtering and also as a power injector via the low port.

newsposter

02-23-07, 11:57 AM

I need recommendations for a reliable amp for a long cable run. I have a DB8 on the roof then 25 ft of wire coming into my unheated attic, then the leviton 25db amp with fm trap, then 75 ft of wire to my HDtivos where they are split. (do freezing/high temps of attic perhaps play havoc with it also?)

The amp works great...when it works. after a year of it, I had to flip the fm trap every once in a while to get it to work. It used to be seasonal but towards december, i'd flip it on a few days, then off, etc etc. Just seemed like flipping the switch made it work.

i got a new one, same model. Well i'm headed down the same path again in the first 2 months of ownership. Got low signals but flip it on and off and it's ok for a while.

i do not want a preamp as i cant get to the antenna. Also my installer tried one and my amp was better anyway. So where's a good dependable one with a trap? I am not sure now that i really need the trap, maybe the switch was just all goofy, but isnt it better to have and not need than the other way around?

edit to add.: at no point are any wires in any conditioned' space. What I mean is heated etc. The wires all run thru the attic and outside thru a breezeway blah blah.

The closest thing it comes to heat is when it enters the crawlspace under the house but that's only 10 ft from where the line comes up thru the living room floor. So pointless to put it there. And I do have electric in the attic.

Rammitinski

02-23-07, 01:37 PM

I need recommendations for a reliable amp for a long cable run. I have a DB8 on the roof then 25 ft of wire coming into my unheated attic, then the leviton 25db amp with fm trap, then 75 ft of wire to my HDtivos where they are split. (do freezing/high temps of attic perhaps play havoc with it also?)

The amp works great...when it works. after a year of it, I had to flip the fm trap every once in a while to get it to work. It used to be seasonal but towards december, i'd flip it on a few days, then off, etc etc. Just seemed like flipping the switch made it work.

i got a new one, same model. Well i'm headed down the same path again in the first 2 months of ownership. Got low signals but flip it on and off and it's ok for a while.

i do not want a preamp as i cant get to the antenna. Also my installer tried one and my amp was better anyway. So where's a good dependable one with a trap? I am not sure now that i really need the trap, maybe the switch was just all goofy, but isnt it better to have and not need than the other way around?Yeah, it's probably better to have one, just in case. Channel Master and Winegard both make excellent, low noise amps.

You can try:

www.solidsignal.com,

www.warrenelectronics.com.

newsposter

02-23-07, 02:54 PM

Dieter2

02-23-07, 02:59 PM

> you can always gang two filters in series for added rejection

Already tried that, along with multiple FM traps.

Rammitinski

02-23-07, 03:14 PM

are those amps ok to just have sitting in the unprotected attic on the floor? They all seem to be mast mount. Obviously my attic "weather" shouldn't be an issue since they are designed for outside i assumeThe distribution amps do not have to be mast-mounted (neither do the pre-amp/amp types, for that matter). Both places sell both types - you just have to search the sites a little more thoroughly.

If you're definitely going to keep the unit up there, you might as well go with the 2-piece, mast mounted type, which is built to withstand outside weather anyways. You can just screw the pre-amp down to anything - it doesn't HAVE to go on a mast.

If you'd rather use a distribution-type amp, then I would keep it outside of the attic - you'd still have to plug it in somewhere outside of the attic anyway.

Dieter2

02-23-07, 03:17 PM

> i got a new one, same model. Well i'm headed down the same path again
> in the first 2 months of ownership. Got low signals but flip it on
> and off and it's ok for a while.

You might try some contact cleaner on the switch. Or open up the
box and solder a jumper across the switch.

> i do not want a preamp as i cant get to the antenna.

A preamp does not *have* to be right at the antenna. That's just the best
location to pick up the least possible amount of noise.

You can use an unswitched FM trap inline ahead of an amp that doesn't
have a FM trap. A "distribution" amp may not have a FM trap, and
will not be weatherproof.

> do freezing/high temps of attic perhaps play havoc with it also

Hmmm, perhaps the temp contraction/expansion could be contributing to
the switch problems?

High temps will shorten the life of electronics. On the other hand,
preamps survive being in direct sunlight for years.

You could run coax down into a closet and put the amp there.

JETninja

02-23-07, 09:10 PM

wonderwoman77

02-23-07, 10:27 PM

holl_ands

02-24-07, 03:35 AM

Quick Question...

I Bid and won an auction on e-Bay for a Zenith Silver Sensor Antenna......

What arrived today is the Philips version. The Pic on the box looks exactly like the Zenith version, and I mean exactly. But I bid specifically on the Zenith one because I know the reputation of that Antenna....I don't know if there is anything different then in the Philips version.

Can anyone tell me if they are the same? Or is there some difference I should know about, and in that case get back to the seller. (its a Canadian place, they sell these all day long)

Thanks!!!
They're all the same. Philips bought Gemini Industries who earlier bought accessories part of Zenith,
who in turn obtained manufacturing rights from UK's Antiference:
http://www.accessorystore.co.uk/acatalog/SS100_Silver_Sensor.html
http://www.antiference.co.uk/
(Antiference website is temporarily under re-construction.)

And Korea's LG got Zenith's ATSC patent rights.

andy.s.lee

02-24-07, 04:56 AM

Wondering what kind of Mast Mount Pre-Amp I should get for my TV?I have a 30" Sanyo HDTV hooked up to a RS VU190XT.Currently it is only up about 15-18' on a mast pole that houses my 2m/440 Ham antenna.I plan to raise it to 30-40' this summer if I can.My Zip Code is 45319 and I get all the Dayton HD stuff ok.I have no rotor ATM,but I have the antenna aimed about 210-220° to get Cincinnati stations.I get WLWT(5),WSTR(64),WCET(48) without trouble.Rarely,I get WKRC(12),WXIX(19),WPTO(14).I am thinking if I add an amp,I could buck up those signals to where the TV could get a "lock".I also am going to get a rotor later.I can get a Hy-Gain for $62.95 locally and may be getting a free tower to put it all on.I should be able to get the Columbus stuff pretty well also(Except for WSYX(6) and WTTE(28) due to Sinclair's silliness) after getting the rotor.Anyhow,any ideas/recommendations?Thanks. :-) - Kaci
A good pre-amp would be the Channel Master 7777. It's low noise figure and high gain should give you the best chance at getting the most channels. Since the Dayton channels are coming in so strong (maybe too strong), you may want to aim off-axis for those towers if you find out you're overloading the pre-amp.

The high gain on the 7777 should be enough to overcome any cable / splitter loss in most installations unless you happen to have a very long cable run or multiple power dividers.

You shouldn't have any problems with RG-6 runs of up to a couple hundred feet. Don't use RG-59 since it's twice a lossy per foot compared to RG-6. If you have a ridiculously long cable run (> ~300 ft), you might consider using RG-11.

If you want to split the signal many ways, then a distribution amp like the Channel Master 3044 would fit the bill.

The Cincinnati and Columbus channels you're trying to get are tough indeed. Their distance puts them below the horizon, so you won't be able to get a LOS path. However, they are within reach.

The fact that you are already receiving WLWT(5), WSTR(64), and WCET(48) is a good indication of that. Your difficulty with WKRC(12), WXIX(19), and WPTO(14) is probably related to your antenna's weakness at VHF and low UHF frequencies and/or how well it is aimed. Another combo antenna that might do a little better is the Channel Master 3671. If you really want to go after every last dB of signal, then you're better off going with separate VHF and UHF antennas (which are handled nicely by the 7777 pre-amp, BTW).

If you go the route of separate VHF and UHF antennas, Here are some good options:
- Channel Master 4228 8-bay (UHF)
- AntennasDirect XG91 (better performing UHF Yagi)
- Televes DAT-75 (another high performance UHF Yagi, but funny looking)
- Winegard HD4053 (VHF)

One thing to keep in mind with these high gain antennas is that they have a lot of elements, are highly directional, and start to add up in weight. Some of these antennas are prone to snow accumulation and/or wind drag. Direction control and stability are very important, so you'll have to consider the snow and wind loading aspects of keeping your antennas up and operational under all conditions.

Here's a summary of the channels in your area:
Callsgn Type Channel Freq Tx_kW Rx_dBm Path Dist Azimuth
WBDT (A) 26 543.26 3949.84 -39.9 LOS 33.9 230.4
WDTN (A) 2 55.25 100.00 -41.3 LOS 34.4 229.7
WKEF (A) 22 519.26 2340.00 -42.0 LOS 34.5 230.4
WHIO-TV (A) 7 175.26 200.00 -42.9 LOS 32.8 231.2
WPTD (A) 16 483.26 1510.00 -43.1 LOS 33.8 229.5
WRGT-TV (A) 45 657.25 1142.31 -46.9 LOS 33.9 230.4
WHIO-TV (D) 41 632.31 931.69 -47.2 LOS 32.8 231.2
WDTN (D) 50 686.31 1000.00 -48.0 LOS 34.4 229.7
WPTD (D) 58 734.31 290.00 -53.8 LOS 33.8 229.5
WKEF (D) 51 692.31 95.50 -58.1 LOS 33.9 230.4
WBDT (D) 18 494.31 29.48 -60.5 LOS 33.9 230.4
WWRD-LP (A) 32 579.26 28.53 -65.6 LOS 28.9 203.2
WRGT-TV (D) 30 566.31 10.55 -66.0 LOS 33.9 230.4
WKOI-TV (A) 43 645.26 2290.00 -67.4 LOS 74.0 232.3
WRCX-LP (A) 40 627.26 1.74 -80.2 LOS 34.7 228.7
WCMH-TV (A) 4 67.25 95.50 -80.8 2Edge 78.7 85.7
WSYX (A) 6 83.26 77.44 -83.9 2Edge 79.1 88.4
WKOI-TV (D) 39 620.31 441.80 -86.6 1Edge 74.0 232.3
WBNS-TV (A) 10 193.26 316.00 -88.4 2Edge 78.7 85.7
WSTR-TV (A) 64 771.24 5000.00 -88.6 2Edge 93.8 211.4
WLWT (A) 5 77.24 69.20 -90.6 2Edge 101.1 208.9
WCPO-TV (A) 9 187.25 316.00 -91.0 2Edge 100.1 207.9
WXIX-TV (A) 19 501.26 4468.86 -92.1 2Edge 102.4 209.9
WKRC-TV (A) 12 205.25 316.00 -92.8 2Edge 101.1 207.8
WWHO (A) 53 705.25 4528.89 -92.9 2Edge 80.2 117.2
WSYX (D) 13 210.31 46.66 -97.0 2Edge 79.1 88.5
WTTE (A) 28 555.24 1440.00 -97.5 2Edge 79.1 88.5
WBNS-TV (D) 21 512.31 1000.00 -97.6 2Edge 78.7 85.7
WCET (A) 48 675.24 2240.00 -97.6 2Edge 101.0 208.9
WCMH-TV (D) 14 470.31 902.00 -98.0 2Edge 78.7 85.7
WLWT (D) 35 596.31 1000.00 -100.5 2Edge 101.1 208.9
WSTR-TV (D) 33 584.31 303.75 -100.9 2Edge 93.8 211.4
WWHO (D) 46 662.31 722.24 -101.2 2Edge 80.2 117.2
WCET (D) 34 590.31 292.93 -105.0 2Edge 101.1 208.9
WCPO-TV (D) 10 192.31 16.30 -105.4 2Edge 100.1 207.9
WKRC-TV (D) 31 572.31 330.00 -107.1 2Edge 101.1 207.8
WPTO (D) 28 554.31 284.00 -108.1 2Edge 102.4 209.9
WXIX-TV (D) 29 560.31 204.19 -108.9 2Edge 102.4 209.9
WPTO (A) 14 471.26 204.00 -108.9 2Edge 81.3 235.7
You'll notice that all the distant channels you're trying to get are single or double edge diffracted (under the "Path" column), because you're essentially getting ground-wave that's curving over the horizon.

And attached is the same information represented in radar plot form, showing the direction and relative signal strengths of the various channels. Longer bars indicate stronger signal (10 dB per ring).

I hope this helps.

Best regards,
Andy

afiggatt

02-24-07, 10:03 AM

I Bid and won an auction on e-Bay for a Zenith Silver Sensor Antenna......

What arrived today is the Philips version. The Pic on the box looks exactly like the Zenith version, and I mean exactly. But I bid specifically on the Zenith one because I know the reputation of that Antenna....I don't know if there is anything different then in the Philips version.

Can anyone tell me if they are the same?
Yes, the Philips Silver Sensor is identical to the Zenith one. Probably made in the same factory, although the Silver Sensor is not that a complicated item to make.

goldrich

02-24-07, 04:06 PM

........I should be able to get the Columbus stuff pretty well also(Except for WSYX(6) and WTTE(28) due to Sinclair's silliness).......... - Kaci

What silliness? I'm confused by this comment. WTTE-DT 36 (28.1) and WSYX-DT 13 (6.1) provide very good OTA signals. As a DTV DXer, I see WTTE-DT quite often here in Indy (@ 165 miles) during times of tropospheric enhancement.

If the "silliness" comment refers to the retransmission-consent scuffle between Time Warner Cable (Columbus) and Sinclair (Columbus stations) earlier this year, that has been resolved, according to posts at the Columbus, OH thread. The cable issue and your ability to receive the Columbus Sinclair stations OTA have nothing in common. And, BTW, I do not work for Sinclair.

Steve

holl_ands

02-25-07, 01:43 AM

andy.s.lee

02-25-07, 03:03 AM

I punched your zipcode into www.fccinfo.com and found some (future and existing)
low power stations only 5 miles away from (Post Office?) location....you should enter your location....

These strong signals can reduce the sensitivity of the high-gain CM7777 due to intermod products.
Better choice is lower-gain, high overload tolerant, Winegard AP-8700 Preamp...to ensure
performance as new stations come on-line and if existing stations upgrade power.

If local stations go to high power, you may eventually need to change to the low gain W-G HDP-269.
Good thinking, holl_ands...

Here's a link to the data directly from the FCC for zip code 45319 (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=2&dist=30&dlat2=39&mlat2=55&slat2=4&dlon2=83&mlon2=56&slon2=53&size=9).

The three closest transmitters are W20CL on channel 20, a new unnamed application on channel 24, and WWRD-LP on channel 32.

All three are translator stations. W20CL and WWRD-LP are analog and the new one on channel 24 will be digital. Being translator stations, you can expect that these will never broadcast with very much power. They do not produce their own content, and instead take and existing feed and re-broadcast it to serve smaller, isolated communities. These facilities only put out tens of kilowatts, so their field strength will fall to "normal" levels within very short distances.

holl_ands is right that it's a good thing to check for if you live close to any kind of transmitter facility (check for TV, FM, and ham radio stations). Being too close to any transmitter can make life difficult on your amps and tuners.

I excluded W20CL in the previous analysis to avoid confusion, but here's the same analysis with the translators included:
Callsgn Type Channel Freq Tx_kW Rx_dBm Path Dist Azimuth
WBDT (A) 26 543.26 3949.84 -39.9 LOS 33.9 230.4
WDTN (A) 2 55.25 100.00 -41.3 LOS 34.4 229.7
WKEF (A) 22 519.26 2340.00 -42.0 LOS 34.5 230.4
WHIO-TV (A) 7 175.26 200.00 -42.9 LOS 32.8 231.2
WPTD (A) 16 483.26 1510.00 -43.1 LOS 33.8 229.5
WRGT-TV (A) 45 657.25 1142.31 -46.9 LOS 33.9 230.4
WHIO-TV (D) 41 632.31 931.69 -47.2 LOS 32.8 231.2
WDTN (D) 50 686.31 1000.00 -48.0 LOS 34.4 229.7
WPTD (D) 58 734.31 290.00 -53.8 LOS 33.8 229.5
W20CL (A) 20 507.26 3.58 -57.8 LOS 8.8 56.0
WKEF (D) 51 692.31 95.50 -58.1 LOS 33.9 230.4
W66AQ (A) 22 519.26 54.00 -58.4 LOS 34.5 230.4
WBDT (D) 18 494.31 29.48 -60.5 LOS 33.9 230.4
WWRD-LP (A) 32 579.26 28.53 -65.6 LOS 28.9 203.2
WRGT-TV (D) 30 566.31 10.55 -66.0 LOS 33.9 230.4
WKOI-TV (A) 43 645.26 2290.00 -67.4 LOS 74.0 232.3
WRCX-LP (A) 40 627.26 1.74 -80.2 LOS 34.7 228.7
WCMH-TV (A) 4 67.25 95.50 -80.8 2Edge 78.7 85.7
WSYX (A) 6 83.26 77.44 -83.9 2Edge 79.1 88.4
WKOI-TV (D) 39 620.31 441.80 -86.6 1Edge 74.0 232.3
WBNS-TV (A) 10 193.26 316.00 -88.4 2Edge 78.7 85.7
WSTR-TV (A) 64 771.24 5000.00 -88.6 2Edge 93.8 211.4
WLWT (A) 5 77.24 69.20 -90.6 2Edge 101.1 208.9
WCPO-TV (A) 9 187.25 316.00 -91.0 2Edge 100.1 207.9
WXIX-TV (A) 19 501.26 4468.86 -92.1 2Edge 102.4 209.9
WKRC-TV (A) 12 205.25 316.00 -92.8 2Edge 101.1 207.8
WWHO (A) 53 705.25 4528.89 -92.9 2Edge 80.2 117.2
WSYX (D) 13 210.31 46.66 -97.0 2Edge 79.1 88.5
WTTE (A) 28 555.24 1440.00 -97.5 2Edge 79.1 88.5
WBNS-TV (D) 21 512.31 1000.00 -97.6 2Edge 78.7 85.7
WCET (A) 48 675.24 2240.00 -97.6 2Edge 101.0 208.9
WCMH-TV (D) 14 470.31 902.00 -98.0 2Edge 78.7 85.7
WLWT (D) 35 596.31 1000.00 -100.5 2Edge 101.1 208.9
WSTR-TV (D) 33 584.31 303.75 -100.9 2Edge 93.8 211.4
WWHO (D) 46 662.31 722.24 -101.2 2Edge 80.2 117.2
WCET (D) 34 590.31 292.93 -105.0 2Edge 101.1 208.9
WCPO-TV (D) 10 192.31 16.30 -105.4 2Edge 100.1 207.9
WKRC-TV (D) 31 572.31 330.00 -107.1 2Edge 101.1 207.8
WPTO (D) 28 554.31 284.00 -108.1 2Edge 102.4 209.9
WXIX-TV (D) 29 560.31 204.19 -108.9 2Edge 102.4 209.9
WPTO (A) 14 471.26 204.00 -108.9 2Edge 81.3 235.7
WOSU-TV (A) 34 591.25 1170.00 -111.3 2Edge 91.5 72.9
WBQC-CA (A) 38 615.25 132.24 -112.9 2Edge 100.1 207.9
W63AH (A) 63 765.25 10.42 -114.1 2Edge 54.5 348.8
WTLW (A) 44 651.26 912.00 -115.7 2Edge 96.3 348.0
WSFJ-TV (D) 24 530.31 702.57 -116.2 2Edge 108.4 80.5
WTTV (A) 4 67.25 58.90 -117.6 Tropo 196.0 253.1
WOTH-LP (A) 25 537.25 31.02 -117.7 2Edge 100.1 207.9
WGCT-CA (A) 8 181.25 2.62 -118.2 2Edge 77.5 82.5
WRTV (A) 6 83.25 100.00 -118.4 Tropo 192.1 269.4
WLIO (D) 8 180.31 22.40 -118.8 2Edge 93.7 350.4
WTTE (D) 36 602.31 11.20 -119.4 2Edge 79.1 88.5
I happened to use the coordinates 39.918333, -83.948611 to represent the zip code 45319. If wonderwoman77 is closer to some of these transmitters then a re-evaluation may be warranted. But as you can see, even at only 8.8 km (~5.5 mi), the signal strength of W20CL is already less than the signal levels coming from most of the Dayton channels.

The updated radar plot is also attached.

Best regards,
Andy

holl_ands

02-27-07, 05:08 AM

andy.s.lee

02-27-07, 01:29 PM

Hey Andy--the above "Rx dBm" calculations appear to be way, way too low....maybe they are spectral density???
I'm also curious as to why W20CL is listed with only 3.58 kW ERP, whereas FCC license indicates
10 kW max with downward beam tilt and did not include the usual azimuthal antenna pattern.
What's going on????
Great! It looks like someone's paying attention to details. Actually you're right on the W20CL issue. In my older snapshot of the FCC database, they had actually included an antenna pattern ID even though they specified a non-directional configuration. The antenna ID happened to match an existing antenna ID in their database, so my software used it. I've corrected that now. Nice catch!

Levels I'm familiar with are shown in the fol. two jpg's for path calculations at my location,
using the (FREE) RADIO MOBILE propagation prediction program.

"MediaFlo_CH53-to-RH" is a 50 kW transmitter that is LOS at 3.2 km (2.0 miles).
RM calculates -1.7 dBm at output of antenna (OUCH!!!). [Of course, at 4.0 miles it would drop to -7.7 dBm.]

Because CH55 is already occupied, Qualcomm (based in San Diego), temporarily set up a MediaFlo
transmitter on Black Mtn using CH53.
Unfortunately, almost in my back yard, rather than one of the usual locations.....
And thankfully, with only one nearby transmitter, the intermods are greatly suppressed.

"KSWB-DT to RH" is a 323 kW transmitter that is LOS at 35.9 km (22.4 miles).
RM calculates -17.5 dBm at the output of a 10 dBd antenna.
(With 4470 kW Analog counterpart at -9.2 dBm.....et. al.)
There are at least 3 important differences in what / how the models differ which accounts for the differences. I hadn't gone into all the details of the RF calculations in the models since I thought it might be a bit out of scope for this forum, but since you asked, it's a great chance to share...

1) Your model includes receiver gain factors. RADIO MOBILE can account to antenna gain, pre-amp, cable losses, etc. In this case, it looks like you were including about 10 dB of net gain at the receiver. My modeling does not take into account any receiver. That is, it only estimates the field strength dBuV/m at a point in space. Since every receiver chain is different, I left that up to the reader to add/subtract his/her receive path's gain/loss. This should account for about 10dB of difference.

2) Your results seem to be derived from two different modeling techniques: a) free space loss, and b) first Fresnel zone terrain model. These are extremely common models, yet they tend to be optimistic. Free space loss is, by definition, the most optimistic model. Fresnel zone modeling accounts for diffraction effects, but its accuracy will vary depending on the exact shape of the terrain profile. There's a big difference between a true knife edge diffraction and skimming across the top of a flat rounded obstruction. The Longley-Rice model takes a different approach by modeling the physics along the entire path of the profile. It takes into account groundwave, diffraction, tropospheric, and earth curvature effects and integrates the cumulative effects along the given terrain profile. The intent of the model was to be as realistic as possible. So certain terrain profiles can certainly cause the L-R model to differ significantly from the other models. This may account for another ~10dB of difference.

3) Most of these models (and there are a whole lot of others out there) use empirically derived "fudge factors" to make the predictions fit with real-world expectations. In the case of the L-R model, there are aspects of the model that depend on the EM properties (permittivity, permeability) of the terrain the wave is passing over. Radio waves will behave differently passing over water vs. sand vs. ferrous rock. In the L-R model, they've put together a table of these properties for different terrain approximations. Seven different parameter tables have been empirically derived for these classifications of terrain: equatorial, continental subtropical, maritime tropical, desert, continental temperate, maritime temperate over land, and maritime temperate over sea. I use continental temperate since that is most applicable to North America.

Also as part of the L-R are two dimensions in the "statistical bell curve" for each estimate. Since we don't know _exactly_ what the composition of the terrain is, there is a Confidence measure and a Reliability measure associated with how conservative/aggressive you want the estimate to be, using terrain variability statistics. The FCC has standardized on using a (50%, 90%) confidence/reliability setting for evaluating license applications for coverage and interference analysis. I've found that setting to be too optimistic compared to my own field testing, so I use a (99%, 99%) setting in my models. Maybe I'm being a little too conservative, but I've found good correlation between my simulated and measured results. If I run the same model using the FCC settings, I get estimates that are about 20 dB higher, but I still feel that those numbers are a bit too optimistic. Perhaps the true value should be somewhere in between (50,90) and (99,99). This probably accounts for about 20dB of difference.

I think that estimating amp overload using optimistic models, as you have been doing, is a good thing since you'll actually be on the conservative side in avoiding strong signals.

I think my results are actually more realistic if you're looking at measurements taken with a spectrum analyzer. From my experience, I think that (99,99) is much more consistent with reality than (50,90), but the numbers are about 10 dB too low. Overall, the L-R model has been the most realistic model I've ever used. It's probably due to the fact that it actually takes into account much more real data than any other model commonly used.

No matter what, there's always varied and uncontrolled differences between simulated results and real-world measurements. In the end, I don't think it's the absolute accuracy that matters, but rather the overall trends and relative quantities that can be gleaned from the simulation results.

In one model, you may find that your receivability cutoff is at -60dBm. In another, the cutoff might be -90dBm. In either case, the important thing is that things above that threshold are easy to get and things below that threshold are difficult to get. Once you begin to get a feel for and understand the model you are using, the net benefit ends up being the same.

If it makes you feel any better, you can add a constant fudge factor like 40dB (or whatever it happens to be) to make my numbers line up with the numbers you're used to seeing. I still contend that the L-R model correlates with reality the best, although the conservative settings probably drop the dBm values by about 10 dB compared to reality.

BTW: www.antennaweb.org lists W47CB on CH47, (which does not exist in FCC database)
in same location as W20CL (on CH20 per FCC database).
In www.2150.com, W47CB is also listed, but license sez W20CL on CH20.....I guess W47CB is really W20CL.
So this is probably (yet another) error in antennaweb....
I've frequently found strange omissions or inclusions in the antennaweb database. I think it's great that they've created a simple to use interface to help guide the average OTA customer. But being the engineer that I am, I find that actually understanding relative signal strengths of channels is far more useful than the colored pie charts antennaweb gives you. As such, I'd still point people at antennaweb as a starting point and then refer to my own analysis when it comes to understanding the details of a particular installation.

Thanks for the great comments.

Best regards,
Andy

majik99

02-27-07, 01:39 PM

Nitewatchman

02-27-07, 01:51 PM

Few things I should comment on related to the recent discussion+wonderwoman77's situation as it involves my general area+Local stations I'm familiar with ...

WWRD-LP is currently on 55, transmits from Near Bellbrook, OH(SouthEast of Dayton, basically) it's a independant LPTV station, not a translator. They've run various religious+home shopping programming over the years, I can even recall seeing shows such as "The rifeman", and "leave it to beaver" on there in the past. They are currently mostly running "Gospel Music channel". They have a current analog CP to move to 32. It really shouldn't be an "overload" issue from Donnelsville, which is outside of it's "predicted" service area. Here's a Link to their website :

http://www.lifebroadcastingnetwork.org/wwrd_tv_55.htm

Here's the contour map from FCC website that shows their transmitter location+predicted service area :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TX286845.html

W20CL(TBN translator) was on 47 (was W47BC) until a little over a year ago when they moved to 20 because of interference protection issue with a Lima DTV station on 47. The W20CL antenna pattern is shown on FCC site as non-directional, that is why there isn't antenna pattern(azimuth) info shown for their current facilities on FCC site (relative field values would be "1" in all directions) - It does show ERP at 8.7 KW ERP, 10.2 KW below Horizontal plane(beam tilt) See here:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=W20CL&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

The LD app on 24 for Springfield is a digital companion channel app from W20CL. I don't recall exactly how I matched it up on a previous occasion, but somewhere in FCC CDBS info at some point in the process for original application for digital companion channel the realted analog facility ID was shown, but now I can't seem to dig that up. The last time I checked it, FCC hadn't granted their app yet, and the most recent action was an amendment to lower power because of interference protection concern invloving co-channel WCVN-DT 24, Covington, KY(Just across Ohio river from Cincinnati).

the good news is, W20CL transmitter location is NE of Donnelsville, between the two curves on SR41, so she shouldn't need to be aiming the front side of antenna anywhere near it, but it could easily be right off the back side of antenna ....

The bad news is, If She's east of Donnelsville on/Near and North of US 40 (between Springfield+Donnelsville), it's possible she could be as close as a few thousand feet to W20CL (I didn't check to see where the zip codes change in that area, however - if she's right on US 40/East of Donnelsville, the closest she could be to W20CL/WEEC-FM/WDHT-FM wuld be 2 miles) ...And, she did tell us in Dayton thread she is near US40/near Donnelsville .....

This will show W20CL+proposed digital facilities on 24 location :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TX1104982.html

More bad news is, there are 2 50 KW ERP FM's (WEEC 100.7 +WDHT 102.9) transmitting from nearly the same location as W20CL :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=FM101044.html

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=FM175936.html

I suspect The FM's might be the bigger issue here, especially as a VU190 would probably have a decent amount of gain on FM, and perhaps not as much F/B rejection as a higher performance FM Yagi(such as APS-13) -- For instance, while I certianly receive a weak signal here from W20CL from 39 miles away, WEEC+WDHT are at near "blow torch" signal levels, even here ...

While the FM traps in preamps such as CM7778 seem to work fairly well, I dunno how well they'd work if you had two 50KW FM's on your "back door", so I expect some additional attenuation of FM signals before the preamp might be a good idea. A 1/4 wave coax stub filter is fairly inexpensive to make, and if cut precisely enough, could knock down both 100.7+102.9 by nearly 20db -- Of course, you'd probably want to put the stub filter solely on the "VHF" side of things, as I haven't done the math to say what specific channels would be effected in this case, but harmonics involved would cause the stub filter to also effect certian UHF frequencies/channels. With vhf/UHF combo antenna, that would require seperating VHF+UHF before preamp/inserting the filter, and then recombining VHF/UHF either before the preamp if it has a "combined" VHF/UHF input, or use of preamp with seperate VHF/UHF input).

I don't know, but hopefully there's not a RF shielding issue involved here as well ....

----------------

Another issue to pay attention to here are the several Co-channel Cincinnati+Columbus stations : WCPO-DT 10 Cincy/WBNS 10 Columbus, WCMH-DT 14 Columbus/WPTO 14 Oxford, WPTO-DT 28 Oxford(currently transmitting from Cincinnati)/WTTE 28 Columbus, WCET-DT 34 Cincy/WOSU 34 Columbus ... There are also a couple of cincinnati LP's+Columbus digitals that are co channel (WOSU-DT 38/WBQC-CA 38 and WTTE-DT 36/W36DG 36) ----

And, also there are various 1st adajcent channel relationships among Cincinnati/Dayton, or Dayton/Columbus stations ... Perhaps the most "serious" potential problem one given the antenna aiming required being WRGT-DT 30 Dayton, and WXIX-DT 29/WKRC-DT 31 Cincinnati. While FCC "says" as much as 46db d/U ratio should work fine with DTV first adajcent channels, I dunno if that's been proven or not, or what "variances" might be involved regarding different models of tuners selectivity/sensitivity issues/etc, nor do I know what the signal levels/differences between them for those stations at Kaci's antenna actually is ..... I do know co-located 1st adjacent channel facilities seem to work best with DTV ...

Just some thoughts, FWIW ....

andy.s.lee

02-27-07, 03:49 PM

I have a quick question. I am now using the Terk HDTVa from best buy. My zip is 76132. I live in an apartment with a western view and the towers are to the east. I am on the second floor and can get all of the UHF stations perfectly. The only one I am having trouble with is WFAA. I know that it is VHF, and a lot of people in Dallas area have trouble receiving it. I can usually get it pretty well with a few disruptions every once in a while. Sometimes the sound goes for a second or so every 10 seconds. Which makes watching very annoying. With the Terk it only has rabbit ears for VHF. Is there a better option for VHF with an indoor antenna? I read some reviews for this antenna http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Indoor-Outdoor-HDTV-Antenna-MANT950/sem/rpsm/oid/158307/catOid/-15607/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do
Would it improve my VHF reception? I could most likely hang it near the ceiling instead of on a lower book shelf like I have the Terk now. Or I could put on the west facing patio. I dont know if that would help or not. Thanks again.
You'll probably get better feedback by posting this question in the Dallas thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9892601#post9892601). Locals may have better information on specific broadcasters than I have.

In any case, attached is the digital channel radar plot for an arbitrary point in zip code 76132. From the looks of it, there are lots of very strong signals coming from the east, including channel WFAA, channel 9. You should have plenty of signal strength to work with.

The more probable explanation for your troubles is multipath. The UHF portion of your Terk antenna is directional, so it's better at picking a single signal while attenuating unwanted extra multipath signal. However, rabbit ears are more omni-directional, so you're probably getting lots of multipath on VHF channels, making them harder to receive.

You might be able to get things more stable by arranging the rabbit ears in a more directional configuration and pointing it in just the right direction. This requires a lot of experimentation, so you'll need to be patient.

You could also try moving the antenna to a location that is subjected to fewer multpath images. It's hard to say where multipath reflections are coming from, so again, this will require a lot of experimentation. Moving the antenna higher (e.g., the attic) might help.

A third option is to use a more directional VHF antenna, but these will tend to be big.

Multipath is difficult to predict and hard to combat, you use your own judgement and experiment as much as you can.

Good luck!

Best regards,
Andy

wonderwoman77

02-27-07, 07:51 PM

Few things I should comment on related to the recent discussion+wonderwoman77's situation as it involves my general area+Local stations I'm familiar with ...

<snip>
the good news is, W20CL transmitter location is NE of Donnelsville, between the two curves on SR41, so she shouldn't need to be aiming the front side of antenna anywhere near it, but it could easily be right off the back side of antenna ....

The bad news is, If She's east of Donnelsville on/Near and North of US 40 (between Springfield+Donnelsville), it's possible she could be as close as a few thousand feet to W20CL (I didn't check to see where the zip codes change in that area, however - if she's right on US 40/East of Donnelsville, the closest she could be to W20CL/WEEC-FM/WDHT-FM wuld be 2 miles) ...And, she did tell us in Dayton thread she is near US40/near Donnelsville .....

This will show W20CL+proposed digital facilities on 24 location :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TX1104982.html

More bad news is, there are 2 50 KW ERP FM's (WEEC 100.7 +WDHT 102.9) transmitting from nearly the same location as W20CL :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=FM101044.html

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=FM175936.html

I suspect The FM's might be the bigger issue here, especially as a VU190 would probably have a decent amount of gain on FM, and perhaps not as much F/B rejection as a higher performance FM Yagi(such as APS-13) -- For instance, while I certianly receive a weak signal here from W20CL from 39 miles away, WEEC+WDHT are at near "blow torch" signal levels, even here ...

While the FM traps in preamps such as CM7778 seem to work fairly well, I dunno how well they'd work if you had two 50KW FM's on your "back door", so I expect some additional attenuation of FM signals before the preamp might be a good idea. A 1/4 wave coax stub filter is fairly inexpensive to make, and if cut precisely enough, could knock down both 100.7+102.9 by nearly 20db -- Of course, you'd probably want to put the stub filter solely on the "VHF" side of things, as I haven't done the math to say what specific channels would be effected in this case, but harmonics involved would cause the stub filter to also effect certian UHF frequencies/channels. With vhf/UHF combo antenna, that would require seperating VHF+UHF before preamp/inserting the filter, and then recombining VHF/UHF either before the preamp if it has a "combined" VHF/UHF input, or use of preamp with seperate VHF/UHF input).

I don't know, but hopefully there's not a RF shielding issue involved here as well ....
<snip>
Perhaps the most "serious" potential problem one given the antenna aiming required being WRGT-DT 30 Dayton, and WXIX-DT 29/WKRC-DT 31 Cincinnati. While FCC "says" as much as 46db d/U ratio should work fine with DTV first adajcent channels, I dunno if that's been proven or not, or what "variances" might be involved regarding different models of tuners selectivity/sensitivity issues/etc, nor do I know what the signal levels/differences between them for those stations at Kaci's antenna actually is ..... I do know co-located 1st adjacent channel facilities seem to work best with DTV ...

Just some thoughts, FWIW ....

Nitewatchman and others,
That may be the case.Only channels I know of on VHF are WLIODT(8),WCPODT(10),and WSYXDT(13).That is what I have been talking about,the digital channels.I know WDTNDT is on 50,WHIODT is on 41,and so on.The antenna(VU190XT) is aimed SSW to get the Cincinnati stuff.No amp at all,I get WLWTDT,WCETDT,WSTRDT,WKOIDTand all the Dayton/Springfield stuff.I don't expect to get anything from Columbus or Lima as the antenna should be highly directional and block out any signal not near SSW.Add an amp,and you lose everything but the Dayton/Springfield Digital Channels.I don't do any analog as the TWC Cable is hooked up to the analog input and I just leave it that way.Also I would have to think it is possible as some have said for WKRCDT(31) and WXIXDT(29) to be getting overloaded,amp or not,by WRGTDT(30).But I have no idea.We'll see what happens when I raise the antenna later this spring.If conditions are really good of a night,I'll get WKRCDT,WXIXDT,and WPTODT and I'll be happier.But as I had stated,Thanks again for all the help.It is most appreciated.It'll get there.Have a great day!

Nitewatchman

02-27-07, 08:51 PM

Only channels I know of on VHF are WLIODT(8),WCPODT(10),and WSYXDT(13).

Yes, WKRC-DT will be moving to VHF 12 after analog shut off as well. There aren't any Locals for you on Low VHF Currently(WDKY-DT 4 Lexington is Closest), so for local digital reception you don't need the "biggest part" of your current antenna(now+probably in the future as well), and seperate(but smaller, more or less) Hi-VHF/UHF antennas would probably be the best way to go in terms of performance, and in terms of cutting down signal from the Springfield FM's -- Such as XG91 for UHF, Winegard YA1713 for VHF-HI (ch 7-13 - 174~213MHZ) ....

If it stays the way it looks right now, there won't be any Low VHF(ch 2-6 - 54~88MHZ) DTV's in this area after analog shut off either, but you never know what "new" stations may pop up in the future, especially perhaps LP's ....

as the antenna should be highly directional and block out any signal not near SSW.

It won't block *all* of the signal out, it'll just be much weaker than if you have the antenna aimed that way ... and, it will "reject" more signal in some directions vs. others. I haven't looked for a representation of the VU190's pattern on various frequencies, but, I'm a bit familar with that antenna as I used a VU210 here for about 15 years --- generally, as is the case with most antennas you can count on it rejecting more signal off the side than off the back, although there are antennas available with better directivity(more rejection of signal off side lobes or rear) ....

Given your location, That is why it's very possible very strong springfield W20CL+FM's could be a "overload" problem issue for preamp, and why stronger columbus co-channel stations could still raise the noise floor a bit for you for the Cincinnati stations(Given what I know about the VU210, perhaps especially so regarding WBNS 10/WCPO-DT 10) -- especially when improved conditions for what I'll loosely call "improved beyond the normal everyday situation tropo scattering" signal propagation occurs .... often on a stable, nightly basis around here in spring/summer months with a decent rooftop antenna(but nothing necesarily all that "special") you'll be able to see stable signals out 100~150 miles or so in the evenings through morning hours for hours on end, even via nothing more than "normal" radiational cooling occuring that sets up a "sort of" minor temperature inversion ..... We even had an evening like that last weekend, the night you noted improved reception of Cincinnati stations on Dayton thread, I was seeing good signals out of Lexington+Indianapolis(100~120 miles) ....

And, especially given the above+the current co-channel situation with Columbus/Cincinnati for your location, using antenna system with high degree of directivity would probably be very good idea for your location, especially regarding the Cincinnati stations, the latter for which a preamp(but without the springfield stations WEEC/WDHT-FM, or W20CL nearby, perhaps ... would probably be a good idea as well ......

.I don't do any analog as the TWC Cable is hooked up to the analog input and I just leave it that way.

Yes, but at present with the analogs still on the air you can still probably(in a general sense) find out a lot about what is happening with your digital reception by looking at the analog stations OTA in the area, and seeing the effects when you add/remove the preamp/etc, especially perhaps the effects on the weaker signals may be of interest. Best to use a TV that doesn't "mute" the screen with blue or black on channels via it's NTSC tuner where there is no or weak or "interference" laden signals are present) in the area. As, Concerning what is "happening" with the reception of the analog stations, you can tell a lot about what is going on by what you can see right on the screen .... such as, generally, snow=weak signal, ghosts=multipath, "squiggly" diagonal lines=interference from a FM carrier, seeing some sort of ugly bit's of signal showing up for stations on channels they aren't transmitting on(other than some bit of signal showing up on 1st adjacent channels for the strongest signals in area - part of that often has to do with the AFT of the tuner, however) is a sign of "overload" issues being a potential problem issue ...

Unfortunetly, With digital reception, when the right "solution" to a problem isn't easily apparent, you probably really just about need a spectrum analyzer($$$$) to "really" be able to properly diagnose what is causing reception issues, although in some cases you can make a good guess, for instance. The meters on digital receiver's usually really don't tell us much .. A common misconception for instance is that they are true "signal strength meters"(understandable, since some are labeled that way right on the screen), but they are not, at least not in any instance I'm aware of ....

and all the Dayton/Springfield stuff

I'm sure you know this, but keep in mind, except for W20CL, all the TV/DTV stations listed under "springfield" at FCC site actually broadcast from the same "antenna farm" just Southwest of Dayton ..... Springfield in this case only denotes their "community of license"(for WBDT+WRGT if I recall correctly) which they must(and do) serve with a strong/high quality signal(basically) .... Now, in the past (until around 2000 or so), what is now WBDT (previously WTJC 26 - Independant, then WDPX(Pax) for a while) did in fact broadcast from Springfield and a location just South of you.

Thanks again for all the help.It is most appreciated.It'll get there.Have a great day!

You're welcome+be sure to let us know how it turns out/what you end up with ....

jmdaught

02-28-07, 04:21 PM

I live in Pine Grove Mills.
Fed up with the rate hikes, I went and bought a small powered inside antenna at Radio Shack just to see what I would pick up. I found the major stations (PBS, CBS, ABC, FOX)... and then I found this forum.

I am not really satisfied with the inside antenna because I have to fidget with it too much when changing channels. Further, I got poor reception of the local VHF stations.

Although I would love to play around with larger antennas... I simply don't have time. I have too many projects on the table now. Is there anyone who does antenna installs and configs around here? I imagine there are people who do this, and have the equipment to set you up with the best antenna for your house?

WillieAntenna

02-28-07, 05:43 PM

holl_ands

02-28-07, 09:23 PM

For info re local installers, you should try your local thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453241

MeowMeow

02-28-07, 11:30 PM

andy.s.lee

03-01-07, 02:17 AM

I was told in another part to post this question over here:

I live 40 Miles from Altoona PA and 60 miles from Pittsburgh PA. I just bought a shiny new HDTV, and I can only pull in one HD channel (34.1, WJAC out of Johnstown, PA).
I live halfway up a hill and there are a few tall trees nearby and opposing hills between the transmitters and me.

What would be an ideal antenna to purchase to get more HD reception in this sort of medium fringe situation?
If you're living in a hilly / mountainous area, TV reception can be tricky depending on what's blocked and what isn't. You can use antennaweb (http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx) to tell you which channels are available at your house. Hint: If you expand "options" at the bottom of the page, you can enter a large antenna height (e.g. 200 ft), which will have the effect of returning a greater number of channels. Otherwise, the site will return a very conservative list of channels.

Once you have the results, you can read through the site's suggestions on possible antenna requirements.

Alternatively, if you're willing to provide more precise location (e.g., coordinates) and an estimate of how high you will be installing your antenna (e.g., ground floor, second floor, attic, rooftop, # feet off the ground, etc.), I can generate a more detailed analysis, with my own tools, to predict which channels you can expect.

It's hard to recommend an antenna until we have an idea of how easy or difficult your situation might be.

Best regards,
Andy

MeowMeow

03-03-07, 08:36 AM

My Lat/Long: 37.0625, -95.677068

This will be a roof installation on a two story with a fairly high peak. The roof is in the neighborhood of 30 feet above ground. The pole adds 10 feet. Also, I intend when I do this to move the antenna over to a better line of site, and probably use a single antenna that is either omni- or multi-directional. This time I intend to take a laptop with a tuner card up to the roof so I can play around with the best location on the roof.

I'm not particularly keen on AntennaWeb because it was miles off on the analog channels I can receive. It said I could only receive channel 3 and channel 6 and channel 23, when in point of fact I can receive 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9 (WTOV out of Steubenville, OH), 10, 11, 13, 19, 22, 40 and 53. So, I am assuming that with the right antenna I should be able to get good digital channels from Pittsburgh and Johnstown-Altoona.

I can also receive tolerable signal for 21, 23 and 34 out of OH (the big hill nearby apparently kills 23 out of ALtoona so badly that the Ohio 23 station comes in better). I do wonder if the Ohio analog 34 could be interfering with 34 digital signal from WJAC in Johnstown.

Now, if I couldn't get decent reception on the upper UHF analogs, I'd be complacent and say OK. Now, of course, HDTV tends to require something just a little past decent reception.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Thank you, Andy.

MeowMeow

03-03-07, 09:00 AM

Sorry, I didn't even read what I cut and pasted for Lat/Long... Jeez... I bumped the mouse when I was playing around on Google Maps...

40.947937, -78.968056

andy.s.lee

03-03-07, 06:26 PM

Sorry, I didn't even read what I cut and pasted for Lat/Long... Jeez... I bumped the mouse when I was playing around on Google Maps...

40.947937, -78.968056This will be a roof installation on a two story with a fairly high peak. The roof is in the neighborhood of 30 feet above ground. The pole adds 10 feet. Also, I intend when I do this to move the antenna over to a better line of site, and probably use a single antenna that is either omni- or multi-directional. This time I intend to take a laptop with a tuner card up to the roof so I can play around with the best location on the roof.

I'm not particularly keen on AntennaWeb because it was miles off on the analog channels I can receive. It said I could only receive channel 3 and channel 6 and channel 23, when in point of fact I can receive 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9 (WTOV out of Steubenville, OH), 10, 11, 13, 19, 22, 40 and 53. So, I am assuming that with the right antenna I should be able to get good digital channels from Pittsburgh and Johnstown-Altoona.

I can also receive tolerable signal for 21, 23 and 34 out of OH (the big hill nearby apparently kills 23 out of ALtoona so badly that the Ohio 23 station comes in better). I do wonder if the Ohio analog 34 could be interfering with 34 digital signal from WJAC in Johnstown.

Now, if I couldn't get decent reception on the upper UHF analogs, I'd be complacent and say OK. Now, of course, HDTV tends to require something just a little past decent reception.
Here is what's expected at your coordinates. In these radar plots, longer bars mean stronger signals. The list to the right of the plot gives details about each transmitter. The Rx_dBm column indicates how strong each signal should be. These values represent the field strength at a point in space, so your antenna gain, amps, cable loss, splitters, receiver sensitivity, dynamic range, etc. are not factored in (since I don't know what they are).

My interpretation:

- It looks like all the transmissions are non line-of-sight (LOS). In fact, all of them are either reaching you via a double-edge diffraction ("2Edge" under "Path" column) or tropospheric bounce. This kind of result means that you're surrounded by higher topography that prevents anything from reaching you directly.

- You are correct that there are plenty of analog channels within reach. I think that picking up channels 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 19, 22, and 40 is reasonable. People usually have a very hard time pulling in anything below about -105 to -110 dBm on this scale, so I'd expect analog channels 9, 19, and 53 to have a pretty fuzzy picture if they come in at all. If you are receiving such weak signals, then your antenna is doing an exceptional job at those frequencies.

- The choice of digial channels seems to be quite limited. Even with a fairly good antenna, you're only likely to pick up 3 or 4 digital channels.

- I do not see any signs of interfering transmitters on channel 34. The next strongest broadcast on that channel is too low to register. What analog 34 were you receiving out of Ohio? The closest one seems to be over 340km away, so the only way to receive that would be off the troposphere on a good day.

- In hilly terrain, these readings can be very sensitive to your exact location because a small change in position on the hill can make a big difference in how much blockage you are experiencing. Just to make sure these numbers are accurate, you might want to double-check the coordinates being analyzed. If you are actually higher up on the hill, then you can expect the signal strengths to come out higher. If you are actually receiving watchable pictures on channels 9, 19, and 53, then you're probably at a location slightly better than what I've simulated.

My recommendations:

- I'm not sure how much moving around on one rooftop will make a difference. Usually, the small distances that you can move (unless your roof spans a huge area) are not enough to make a significat difference in reception. Usually other factors like tree obstructions, other antenna structures, building blockage, or interference sources (e.g., power lines) play a bigger role than the actual change in signal reception due to positioning.

- However, if you still have the choice and want to optimize things, the best thing to do is place the antenna as far as possible from the obstructions. If you are stuck behind obstructions that force to you have diffracted signals reaching you, you'll want to minimize the angle of diffraction to minimize the signal drop. Moving away from a ridge line usually decreases the angle that the signal must bend.

- That being said, I think you'll get far better improvement with height rather than by horizontal optimization. A few feet of added height will reduce the angle of diffraction for all signals (coming from any direction) and signal strengths will get better as a result.

I hope this helps. Good luck!

Best regards,
Andy

mightydarwin

03-04-07, 11:02 PM

First, I'm about 10 miles from the antenna farm here in Houston. I live in an apartment, bottom floor. For OTA HD I first tried an indoor RCA ANT301 (Fry's $19). Not all channels came through strong enough. I took it back and got a Philips SCA060. Much better but it was $15 more.

I happened to be at Electronic Parts Outlet yesterday and they had some Recoton TV2000 antennas (kind of rare now http://www.gizmos2go.com/xcart/product.php?productid=871) for $15 so I bought one as it looked to be a simple design. I tried it indoors and it worked great (but better outdoors, natch). Most of the channel's signal strength were on the weak side so I hooked up the amplifier it came with and pow! 2-3 times the signal strength (though I still can't get PBS HD content??) and I can mount it on the wall above my TV where I couldn't with the previous antennea.

Its off-white color makes it less conspicuous than other antennas. And the mounting/placement options are more varied so I'm sticking with this one. Plus it comes with 6', 12', and 40' coaxial cables so no need to spend money on more cables or a long cable if I ever need to mount it outside.

insomnialex

03-05-07, 12:00 PM

I have a RadioShack 15-1838 amplified antenna that i picked up for $15.
At first I had the antenna right near the TV, reception was poor and i could only pick up about 3 channels, sometimes.

I checked with antennaweb to find the locations of the HD broadcast towers in the area, moved the antenna to an area of the house where fewer walls and trees would be in the direction of the towers, ran a coax through the attic to the TV and now i can get all the major networks in HD and STV except for PBS without moving the antenna around or messing with the fine tune.

NBC - 2.1, 2.2
CBS - 6.1, 6.2
ABC - 9.1, 9.2
FOX - 35.1
CW - 18.1
27.1 - wrdq
65.1 - mytv

There are some other HD channels that i can pick up, but i din't list them because i deleted them from the TV, and i don't remember what they are.

Ragnrok23

03-06-07, 03:32 PM

I just bought a Mitsubishi LT46131. I am trying to get HD channels using this antenna (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Indoor-HDTV-Antenna-PHDTV1/sem/rpsm/oid/158311/catOid/-15609/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) . My zip code is 02790 (if you want a more acurate spot, move east 4 times when using antennaweb.org) I was able to pick up NBC pretty good (about 75%) and I did get a weak (25%) signal from Fox and ABC. I did not get a reading for CBS at all. I am thinking of getting either this (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Indoor-Outdoor-HDTV-Antenna-MANT950/sem/rpsm/oid/158307/catOid/-15609/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) or this (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2253765&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=family) . If I get the first one I will mount it on the wall behind my TV, if I get the second one, I will just put it on the floor behind the TV stand.

I forgot to add the TV is in the basement. There are no windows in the room. The room to the west of the TV has a window facing north, French Doors facing north, and a window facing west. I am not able to put an antenna outside on in the attic.

Intheswamp

03-06-07, 05:33 PM

I forgot to add the TV is in the basement. There are no windows in the room. The room to the west of the TV has a window facing north, French Doors facing north, and a window facing west. I am not able to put an antenna outside on in the attic.

* yellow - uhf WJAR-DT 10.1 NBC PROVIDENCE RI 339° 21.5 51
* yellow - uhf WNAC-DT 64.1 FOX PROVIDENCE RI 339° 22.1 54
* yellow - uhf WLNE-DT 6.1 ABC NEW BEDFORD MA 339° 21.5 49
* yellow - uhf WLWC-DT 28.1 CW NEW BEDFORD MA 42° 12.9 22
* green - vhf WPRI-DT 12.1 CBS PROVIDENCE RI 341° 22.1 13
* red - uhf WSBE-DT 36.1 PBS PROVIDENCE RI 339° 21.5 36
* red - uhf WWDP-DT 52.1 SAH NORWELL MA 9° 27.8 52
* blue - uhf WPXQ-DT 69.1 ION PROVIDENCE RI 280° 30.4 17
* violet - uhf WCVB-DT 5.1 ABC BOSTON MA 3° 49.3 20
* violet - uhf WBZ-DT 4.1 CBS BOSTON MA 3° 49.3 30
* violet - uhf WHDH-DT 7.1 NBC BOSTON MA 4° 49.2 42
* violet - uhf WGBX-DT 44.1 PBS BOSTON MA 3° 49.3 43
* violet - uhf WGBH-DT 2.1 PBS BOSTON MA 3° 49.3 19
* violet - uhf WDPX-DT 58.1 ION VINEYARD HAVEN MA 96° 36.4 40
* violet - uhf WLVI-DT 56.1 CW CAMBRIDGE MA 4° 48.6 41

In a room in the basement with no windows...you're doing pretty good to get the reception you stated.

If you could get your antenna located in the north window I think you would get the best reception. 339° seems like it would be a good bearing to focus on...21° to the west of north. Looks like the antenna farm in Providence, RI would be the target...it's also 27 miles closer than the farm in Boston. I think your present antenna is sufficient for now...you just need to get it to where it can see the transmitter antennas better.

Ed

afiggatt

03-06-07, 05:48 PM

I just bought a Mitsubishi LT46131. I am trying to get HD channels using [Silver Sensor] . My zip code is 02790 (if you want a more acurate spot, move east 4 times when using antennaweb.org) I was able to pick up NBC pretty good (about 75%) and I did get a weak (25%) signal from Fox and ABC. I did not get a reading for CBS at all. I am thinking of getting either [MANT950] or [Tiny amplified antenna]. If I get the first one I will mount it on the wall behind my TV, if I get the second one, I will just put it on the floor behind the TV stand.

I forgot to add the TV is in the basement. There are no windows in the room. The room to the west of the TV has a window facing north, French Doors facing north, and a window facing west. I am not able to put an antenna outside on in the attic.
You are around 20 miles from the broadcast towers! Any antenna in the basement is going to have problems, depending in part on how much of the basement is above ground. You need as much elevation as you can. Do you get any better results by raising the Silver Sensor up to the ceiling or at a high point in the room? Try different locations in the room for starters. I also suggest you get a 25' (or longer) RG-6 cable with a RF connector and place the Silver Sensor in the room with a window facing north to see what stations you can get.

However, the Silver Sensor you have is a UHF antenna only! The edited list of the antennaweb results for your local stations shows:
* yellow - uhf WLWC-DT 28.1 CW NEW BEDFORD MA 49° 14.0 22
* red - uhf WJAR-DT 10.1 NBC PROVIDENCE RI 344° 20.4 51
* red - uhf WNAC-DT 64.1 FOX PROVIDENCE RI 343° 21.0 54
* red - vhf WPRI-DT 12.1 CBS PROVIDENCE RI 345° 21.0 13
* blue - uhf WLNE-DT 6.1 ABC NEW BEDFORD MA 344° 20.4 49
* blue - uhf WSBE-DT 36.1 PBS PROVIDENCE RI 344° 20.4 36

WPRI CBS 12 is digitally broadcasting on VHF 13. No wonder the Silver Sensor does not get it at all. You will need rabbit ears for VHF or an antenna with good upper VHF reception to get WPRI. I don't see rabbit ears for the tiny Radio Shack amplified antenna; skip that one entirely. The MANT 950 might work if you get it up to the ceiling level, but no guarantee on this. At $100, it is rather expensive for what looks to be a basic dipole with an amplifier.

Ragnrok23

03-06-07, 07:06 PM

WPRI CBS 12 is digitally broadcasting on VHF 13. No wonder the Silver Sensor does not get it at all. You will need rabbit ears for VHF or an antenna with good upper VHF reception to get WPRI. I don't see rabbit ears for the tiny Radio Shack amplified antenna; skip that one entirely. The MANT 950 might work if you get it up to the ceiling level, but no guarantee on this. At $100, it is rather expensive for what looks to be a basic dipole with an amplifier.

I'm a little confused by this. Considering I NEED CBS (Pats football!) I would almost do without all the other channels just to be able to watch the Pats in HD. :cool: On my TV the stations were showing up as 6.1, 10.1, 64.1......

If I did get the MANT900, I would hang it on the wall about 5 feet high

Intheswamp

03-06-07, 07:25 PM

You are around 20 miles from the broadcast towers! Any antenna in the basement is going to have problems, depending in part on how much of the basement is above ground. You need as much elevation as you can. Do you get any better results by raising the Silver Sensor up to the ceiling or at a high point in the room? Try different locations in the room for starters. I also suggest you get a 25' (or longer) RG-6 cable with a RF connector and place the Silver Sensor in the room with a window facing north to see what stations you can get.

However, the Silver Sensor you have is a UHF antenna only! The edited list of the antennaweb results for your local stations shows:

* red - vhf WPRI-DT 12.1 CBS PROVIDENCE RI 345° 21.0 13

WPRI CBS 12 is digitally broadcasting on VHF 13. No wonder the Silver Sensor does not get it at all. You will need rabbit ears for VHF or an antenna with good upper VHF reception to get WPRI. I don't see rabbit ears for the tiny Radio Shack amplified antenna; skip that one entirely. The MANT 950 might work if you get it up to the ceiling level, but no guarantee on this. At $100, it is rather expensive for what looks to be a basic dipole with an amplifier.
Since WPRI could be a problem and it's 21-22 miles away I'd try a $5 pair of rabbit ears from a discount store...kind of a cheap VHF alternative. I'm with afiggatt, $100 seems a bit strong to me. Are "asthetics" important to you? If not, you might try an "outdoor" antenna hung close to the ceiling pointing toward that northern window.

Antenna location is very important. The better your antenna can "see" the transmitting antenna the better reception will be. One of my nephews who's moved out on his own mentioned how bad his OTA reception was via the rabbitears he had hooked up. He lives in a mobilehome in a rural area. On a whim I bought a $5 set of rabbitears and cut a long bamboo pole. We taped the rabbit ears to the tip of the 20' bamboo, hooked a coax to the rabbitears and his television. He was amazed at the difference that it made getting the antenna outside and elevated. I love living in south Alabama! :D

Another option would be to run coax cable to an upstairs location on the north side of the house/apartment, it doesn't have to be in the attic. The extra elevation will help greatly. You could put the antenna in a window on one of the upper levels or, if your house doesn't have any foil-backed insulation/sheathing, you could set it on a shelf in a closet. Placing the antenna on the floor behind the tv would be the worst place...remember that UHF reception is line-of-sight reception and the lowest point (the floor) of a basement (lowest point in the house) will more or less be the worst location for the antenna.

I really think that, other than an outdoor-type antenna, that the Silver Sensor that you have is good enough. If you could put it in a north window I believe it would really make a world of difference.

Location, location, location. :)

Ed

Intheswamp

03-06-07, 07:57 PM

I'm a little confused by this. Considering I NEED CBS (Pats football!) I would almost do without all the other channels just to be able to watch the Pats in HD. :cool: On my TV the stations were showing up as 6.1, 10.1, 64.1......

If I did get the MANT900, I would hang it on the wall about 5 feet high
I just checked out http://www.2150.com/broadcast/ and found that WPRI(CBS) is supposedly transmitting at less than 20kw, whereas WJAR(NBC) is transmitting at 1000kw on one antenna and 526kw on another antenna. WPRI is, for the time being, transmitting at what is termed "lowpower". Many digital stations are transmitting with low power as they check out there equipment and prepare for the big switchover from analog to digital in 2009. Some stations are ahead of others in regards to power output.

As an example, I have an ABC station transmitting digital at 11kw from a distance of 42 miles. It doesn't even make a blip on the receiver with my outdoor 4228 UHF antenna and CM7777 pre-amp. On the opposite end of the spectrum I've got a CBS station transmitting digital at 1000kw 68 miles away that comes in great.

As 2009 nears more and more stations should come online with more power. It is feasible that WPRI *might* increase there power between now and the 2007-2008 football season. You might want to call them (try to get someone in the technical department) and inquire of their plans....who knows, they might even tell you. :) But, for now, you're going to be very hard pressed to get reception of WPRI...you may have to settle for analog (non-HD) until they kick the power up.

Best wishes,
Ed

Intheswamp

03-06-07, 08:39 PM

Considering I NEED CBS (Pats football!) I would almost do without all the other channels just to be able to watch the Pats in HD. :cool: On my TV the stations were showing up as 6.1, 10.1, 64.1......

The 6.1, 10.1, etc, are digital sub-channels. Each digital channel is subject to have more than one "channel" associated with it. My local NBC affiliate on channel 12 has three channels...the main primary channel, a weather channel, and "The Tube" (music videos).

I failed to comment on an alternate to WPRI...

CHANNEL4, WBZ-DT (CBS), Boston. This station is transmitting at 825kw which is much stronger than what WPRI is transmitting at. It's antenna is also a couple of hundred feet taller than WPRI's...the added antenna height should help some in negating the extra distance being as WBZ's antenna is roughly 28 miles further away. Since you appear to want CBS over any other channel I would try to run some coax to a 1st or 2nd floor and set the Silver Sensor in a window on the east side of the house.

Remember, too, that the local terrain between your receiver and the transmitting antenna has A LOT to play in all of this. Hills, mountains, tall buildings, etc., etc., between the receiver and transmitter can all cause problems with reception.

Ed

afiggatt

03-06-07, 11:28 PM

I'm a little confused by this. Considering I NEED CBS (Pats football!) I would almost do without all the other channels just to be able to watch the Pats in HD. :cool: On my TV the stations were showing up as 6.1, 10.1, 64.1......

If I did get the MANT900, I would hang it on the wall about 5 feet high
Those are the sub-channels. Usually the HD sub-channel is the .1 channel for the HD stations. However, the digital broadcasts are being done at different channels than the analog channel number you know the station by. The actual broadcast channel is the last number on each row of the antennaweb list. The digital ATSC broadcast standard provides for channel remapping, so the digital channel is automatically mapped to the 6.1, 10.1, 64.1 that you see.

In your case, you currently have one major network digital station on upper VHF (13) and the rest at UHF. In 2009, after the analog shutdown, WNAC-DT Fox 64 will be switching it's digital signal to upper VHF 10 so your antenna setup will need to work for the entire upper VHF 7 to 12 range.

If you get the MANT 900, I would look to place it as high up in the room as possible, but don't fix into place until you have tried out different locations to find a location with good reception.

afiggatt

03-06-07, 11:41 PM

I just checked out http://www.2150.com/broadcast/ and found that WPRI(CBS) is supposedly transmitting at less than 20kw, whereas WJAR(NBC) is transmitting at 1000kw on one antenna and 526kw on another antenna. WPRI is, for the time being, transmitting at what is termed "lowpower". Many digital stations are transmitting with low power as they check out there equipment and prepare for the big switchover from analog to digital in 2009. Some stations are ahead of others in regards to power output.
This is mis-leading. The ERP power level requirements are different for each of the three channel bands: VHF low (2 to 6), VHF high (7 to 13), and UHF (14 to 69). The maximum power allowed for digital broadcasts for upper VHF is 65 kW while for the same approximate coverage for UHF, the maximum power is 1000 kW. WPRI-DT licensed power is 18 kW for VHF 13. This is not particularly high power, but the service area map in the FCC database for WPRI-DT shows that it should cover Providence and out to Boston as well. The coverage map may be optimistic, but the OP should be able to get WPRI-DT's signal with the right antenna setup. It is the indoor only requirement that is the challenge.

Intheswamp

03-07-07, 08:04 AM

This is mis-leading. The ERP power level requirements are different for each of the three channel bands: VHF low (2 to 6), VHF high (7 to 13), and UHF (14 to 69). The maximum power allowed for digital broadcasts for upper VHF is 65 kW while for the same approximate coverage for UHF, the maximum power is 1000 kW. WPRI-DT licensed power is 18 kW for VHF 13. This is not particularly high power, but the service area map in the FCC database for WPRI-DT shows that it should cover Providence and out to Boston as well. The coverage map may be optimistic, but the OP should be able to get WPRI-DT's signal with the right antenna setup. It is the indoor only requirement that is the challenge.
Sorry to have mislead anyone by my ignorance. I'll bow out of the conversation now. Thanks for the correction afiggatt. :)
Ed

Ragnrok23

03-07-07, 08:55 AM

Rammitinski

03-07-07, 02:52 PM

Ragnrok23

03-07-07, 03:00 PM

Hey, if you can pull it off, you'll have the best quality HD signals available - just look at it that way :).

Thanks!

Looks like I am going to give this (http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?oid=158312) one a try. I just hope CC lets me return the first one I bought a week later. :D

afiggatt

03-07-07, 04:50 PM

I am curious as to why everyone is telling me to point the antenna north? The stations I am trying to get all all to the west. Right now I have the antenna pointing to the west.
The antennaweb results for your zip code placed the broadcast towers at a magnetic direction of around 345 degrees. The correction for your zip code for magnetic north is 15 degrees W so the compass points 15 degrees west of true north. The means the actual direction to the broadcast towers is around 330 degrees or a little North of NW. You should get better results if you aim the antenna NW.

Go ahead and get the Philips antenna if you insist. It does have rabbit ears for VHF and might even work. But the small amplified antennas that are made for appearance over function don't work as well as a "real" antenna. Good website for antenna basics: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html.
Good luck.

WillieAntenna

03-07-07, 05:11 PM

Thanks for the help everyone

Unfortunatly- looks is very important to the wife. she is already complaining that the antenna has to move- it's on the floor on the side of the TV stand.

I am curious as to why everyone is telling me to point the antenna north? The stations I am trying to get all all to the west. Right now I have the antenna pointing to the west.

I am very limited to what I can I do. Other than drilling holes to hang things on the wall, I am not allowed to do much else

This could all be avoided if Charter would just suck it up and start to offer HD cable I wouldn't have this problem

Just don't give up on the first try there will be allot of trial and error so keep moving it around until you can find a sweet spot. Just try in the daytime and night time sometime it make differences. If it fails take it back and find difference antenna. Most time CC and BB will have 30 days returns. Just make sure you have plenty of MGD-Lite on hand to move the antenna around :D with spring around the bend maybe try to stick the antenna out of doorway or window.

Good Luck
-Willie

MeowMeow

03-07-07, 10:49 PM

Intheswamp

03-08-07, 09:43 AM

Thanks to Andy et al (other forums, here, too) for their helps. Still crossing fingers for better weather. Also looking at buying a place on top of a hill right now (not for antenna reasons, but it won't hurt my feelings).
The hilltop location definitely won't hurt things! :) Unless you have a *definite*, *the antenna absolutely has to go here* location picked out for your antenna you might want to try "probing". It's basically mounting the antenna on your mast but moving it from location to location and raising/lowering it till you get the best reception. Takes some effort but supposedly (see, I didn't do it myself :p )works. UHF waves are, if I recall correctly, something like 4-feet apart...thus raising or lowering the antenna just a few feet might actually put you in, or out, of the signal wave. And, of course, moving the antenna around a few feet might move it from a spot of interference to a clear reception spot. You can actually use a smaller, battery-powered tv with it's whip antenna since your interest is in finding the best reception area...then mount your large antenna there. :)

I just thought I'd mention probing.

Ed

Intheswamp

03-08-07, 09:55 AM

Thanks to Andy et al (other forums, here, too) for their helps. Still crossing fingers for better weather. Also looking at buying a place on top of a hill right now (not for antenna reasons, but it won't hurt my feelings).
I just reread your original post...be very careful on that roof!

Before you climb the roof with the antenna you might want to just try it down on the ground and see what you get. My location seems to be pretty good but my antenna is only 15.5' high. Last night I discovered the "barren area" to my south is actually rich in transmitters...they're just 100+ miles away!!! I'm not sure I will be able to keep receiving them or not, but... :)

Here's a link to my report on this, in case you're interested: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9972496&&#post9972496

Best wishes,
Ed
EDIT: Yelp, the 100+ mile reception was tropopheric ducting that brought those stations in so nicely....which opens up a whole new can of interest. :D

jtbell

03-09-07, 10:44 AM

EDIT: Yelp, the 100+ mile reception was tropopheric ducting that brought those stations in so nicely....which opens up a whole new can of interest. :D

I kind of figured you must have been lucky that way, that night. For a couple of nights last week, during that brief warm spell, I was getting unusually good reception on stations that I can't usually receive.

My personal record is about 150 miles: WTBS-DT in Atlanta for a couple of hours one night last fall. I got to watch most of "Caddyshack," then the signal disappeared right at the beginning of the big golf match at the end. :(

pretzelkid

03-10-07, 03:54 PM

andy.s.lee

03-10-07, 05:08 PM

Hello All...
My situation is this, I have 2 stations nearly 180 degrees apart on the same rf channel (19). One is 70 miles away and is WGN in Chicago it's the one i want to receive, and the other is about 50 miles in the opposite direction in Madison Wisconsin which I really couldn't care less about. I have 2 antennas mounted on a 50' tower, a Winegard 7084 combo with rotor and pre-amp(not sure of the model#) and then a side mounted CM4228 with rotor and CM7777 amp mounted about 10' down from the top. I currently can receive Chicago stations like FOX and NBC from Chicago (pretty reliable most of the time) with either antenna but WGN is getting squashed by the Madison station in the opposite direction. I was able to pull in WGN once when the Madison channel went down with antenna problems and lowered power temporarily and on nights when tropo is strong. My question is would I be able to pull in WGN if I changed the 7084 setup with something like an XG91 and 7084 combined into a CM7777 mounted on the top of the tower. I see from some of the documents posted here that the front-back ratio of the XG91 and the CM4228 aren't all that different so if I can't get WGN with the CM4228 I currently have (even though it's about 10' lower on the tower) mating an XG91 with my 7084 won't be that different (although it will be about 15' higher at that point)
I know the only way to find out is to try it but does anyone have any expert opinions?...maybe a different antenna type to combine with my 7084?
What are your coordinates and antenna height. I can run an analysis to see how things look. Send them via PM if you prefer privacy.

Best regards,
Andy

KenL

03-10-07, 05:41 PM

...My question is would I be able to pull in WGN if I changed the 7084 setup with something like an XG91 and 7084 combined into a CM7777 mounted on the top of the tower. I see from some of the documents posted here that the front-back ratio of the XG91 and the CM4228 aren't all that different so if I can't get WGN with the CM4228 I currently have (even though it's about 10' lower on the tower) mating an XG91 with my 7084 won't be that different... I also have a similar situation only my co-channel to the rear is closer but low power analog. My desired digital is also about 70 miles. What I initially discovered was putting the antenna much lower (behind the house) blocked the analog sufficiently to secure the digital 24/7. But of course at the cost of other distant digitals. Turns out my co-channels are 190 degrees apart so going a few degrees off the forward direction nulled the rear analog. I also found a spot in the attic which blocks the rear sufficiently I can use a 4228 to get the forward digital co-channel reliably, while keeping the rooftop array peaked for other channels.

Your two are 169 degrees apart (from zipcode 53115) so you might try a dual horizontal stack of 91XGs to narrow the beam (deepen nulls) might give you a better shot. With other benefits to boot. But the situation is especially difficult with both being digital and so close in axis. And looks like both are staying on 19.

pretzelkid

03-10-07, 07:25 PM

What are your coordinates and antenna height. I can run an analysis to see how things look. Send them via PM if you prefer privacy.

Best regards,
Andy

Hi Andy,
The coordinates i used on www.2150.com are:
latitude=42.582864
longitude=-088.647355
mag dev=-2.28
range=100 miles

The Madison station is NBC15 at 309.8 degrees, 53.44 miles with an
antenna height of 1269' and power at 56kw ERP/HAAT

The Chicago station is WGN-DT at 135.2 degrees, 71.01 miles with an antenna height of 1486' and power at 645kw ERP/HAAT

My own info is tower height of ~55' and I'm not sure of my elevation although I am in a woodsy area, large trees and a rising elevation southeast of me which is the direction of Chicago for me.

Thanks for the help Andy
John

pretzelkid

03-10-07, 07:38 PM

I also have a similar situation only my co-channel to the rear is closer but low power analog. My desired digital is also about 70 miles. What I initially discovered was putting the antenna much lower (behind the house) blocked the analog sufficiently to secure the digital 24/7. But of course at the cost of other distant digitals. Turns out my co-channels are 190 degrees apart so going a few degrees off the forward direction nulled the rear analog. I also found a spot in the attic which blocks the rear sufficiently I can use a 4228 to get the forward digital co-channel reliably, while keeping the rooftop array peaked for other channels.

Your two are 169 degrees apart (from zipcode 53115) so you might try a dual horizontal stack of 91XGs to narrow the beam (deepen nulls) might give you a better shot. With other benefits to boot. But the situation is especially difficult with both being digital and so close in axis. And looks like both are staying on 19.

I need the height to get the Chicago channels because of terrain to my southeast so using structure to deaden that rear channel is pretty much out. I didn't want to get too crazy with stacked arrays and such. Originally the Madison channel was slated to go to their current rf channel 15 so I was going to wait a couple of years and deal with it then but like you said they decided to stick on rf 19 now so I wanted to explore some options.

pretzelkid

03-10-07, 07:48 PM

If this has anything to do with the Chicago Cubs, then let me just say this - don't get your hopes up too high.

LOL well sports are mostly the reason I'd like to get a hold of WGN but being a born and raised SOUTHSIDER the White Sox is the team I root for the most...and I'm not one of those cubby haters at all, if they win that's fine with me too but thank the Lord the Sox won it all the season before last!!!

WillieAntenna

03-10-07, 08:32 PM

Hello All...
My situation is this, I have 2 stations nearly 180 degrees apart on the same rf channel (19). One is 70 miles away and is WGN in Chicago it's the one i want to receive, and the other is about 50 miles in the opposite direction in Madison Wisconsin which I really couldn't care less about. I have 2 antennas mounted on a 50' tower, a Winegard 7084 combo with rotor and pre-amp(not sure of the model#) and then a side mounted CM4228 with rotor and CM7777 amp mounted about 10' down from the top. I currently can receive Chicago stations like FOX and NBC from Chicago (pretty reliable most of the time) with either antenna but WGN is getting squashed by the Madison station in the opposite direction. I was able to pull in WGN once when the Madison channel went down with antenna problems and lowered power temporarily and on nights when tropo is strong. My question is would I be able to pull in WGN if I changed the 7084 setup with something like an XG91 and 7084 combined into a CM7777 mounted on the top of the tower. I see from some of the documents posted here that the front-back ratio of the XG91 and the CM4228 aren't all that different so if I can't get WGN with the CM4228 I currently have (even though it's about 10' lower on the tower) mating an XG91 with my 7084 won't be that different (although it will be about 15' higher at that point)
I know the only way to find out is to try it but does anyone have any expert opinions?...maybe a different antenna type to combine with my 7084?

Hi pretzelkid I am over in Walworth and I have the same problem as you do but WGN-9 kills WMTV-15 for me.

Heads up to be in 2009 Chicago WBBM-2 will be on CH 11 which will be the same as Madison WMSN-47 currently on DT 11 and will stay after 2009 also with WBBM going to 1.2 KW so WMSN will kill that for sure. In Madison WISC-3 (DT 50) and will stay on and Aurora WXFT-60 Currently on (DT 59) will move to DT 50 in 2009 I think Madison will kill this also. So in 2009 there will be 1 VHF station in each of our 4 markets with expect in Chicago will have 2. WLS-7 (DT-52) will move back to 7, WBBM-2 on DT-3 now and move to 11, Rockford WREX-13 (DT-54) will move back to 13, Madison WMSN-47 (DT-11) will stay on 11 and Milwaukee WMVS-10 (DT-8) will stay on 8.

-Willie

KenL

03-10-07, 08:55 PM

...The Madison station is NBC15 at 309.8 degrees, 53.44 miles with an
antenna height of 1269' and power at 56kw ERP/HAAT

The Chicago station is WGN-DT at 135.2 degrees, 71.01 miles with an antenna height of 1486' and power at 645kw ERP/HAAT...That is really tough. Only 5 degrees off-axis. And the terrain is unfavorable as well? A digital warzone. :(

On the plus side 645kw ERP is rather generous for channel 19 and it seems to be aimed (http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=39765&rotate=0.00&p0=0.710&p10=0.490&p20=0.410&p30=0.290&p40=0.150&p50=0.210&p55=0.230&p60=0.210&p70=0.150&p80=0.310&p90=0.420&p100=0.490&p110=0.720&p120=0.850&p130=0.860&p140=0.850&p150=0.960&p156=1.000&p160=0.980&p170=0.820&p180=0.790&p190=0.830&p200=0.840&p210=0.850&p220=0.870&p230=0.880&p240=0.880&p250=0.870&p260=0.850&p270=0.840&p280=0.830&p290=0.790&p300=0.830&p310=0.980&p314=1.000&p320=0.960&p330=0.850&p340=0.860&p350=0.850&p360=0.710&) right at you.

One 91XG is more directional than a 4228 (even with the CM feedlines removed) but dual-horizontal-stacked X-director yagis provide the most practical enhanced directionality these days. However 5 degrees is just not much to work with. It's possible 4228 has better front-to-back (on channel 19) than a single 91XG. And unfortunately anything you use to block (improve screen etc.) becomes wind load.

I know you don't want to get too crazy but (http://www.oldtvguides.com/DXPhotos/dish-small~~.JPG)... :)

pretzelkid

03-11-07, 12:35 AM

Hi pretzelkid I am over in Walworth and I have the same problem as you do but WGN-9 kills WMTV-15 for me.

Heads up to be in 2009 Chicago WBBM-2 will be on CH 11 which will be the same as Madison WMSN-47 currently on DT 11 and will stay after 2009 also with WBBM going to 1.2 KW so WMSN will kill that for sure. In Madison WISC-3 (DT 50) and will stay on and Aurora WXFT-60 Currently on (DT 59) will move to DT 50 in 2009 I think Madison will kill this also. So in 2009 there will be 1 VHF station in each of our 4 markets with expect in Chicago will have 2. WLS-7 (DT-52) will move back to 7, WBBM-2 on DT-3 now and move to 11, Rockford WREX-13 (DT-54) will move back to 13, Madison WMSN-47 (DT-11) will stay on 11 and Milwaukee WMVS-10 (DT-8) will stay on 8.

-Willie

Hi Willie,
That's kinda weird that WGN squashes your Madison channel...I guess a few degrees this way or that way really makes a difference. I'm not really concerned with receiving all the Chicago channels all the time I just used the 2 I do get reliably for reference, with WGN being similar in height (Sears Tower) and power with them. I can't get WLS at all but they are running only 156 kw compared to Fox at 690kw and NBC at 350kw. WBBM-2 out of Chicago is a lost cause as half the people 20 miles from the antenna can't get that channel...the Chicago OTA thread is full of sob stories...I get all the networks out of Milwaukee just fine. It just bugs me to not be able to get WGN.

pretzelkid

03-11-07, 12:45 AM

I know you don't want to get too crazy but (http://www.oldtvguides.com/DXPhotos/dish-small~~.JPG)... :)

Oh man I remember those uhf dishes when I was a kid growing up in Chicago and the bars had them so they could pull in blacked out Bears games out of the Rockford Illinois market 90 or so miles northeast... :)

andy.s.lee

03-11-07, 01:02 AM

The coordinates i used on www.2150.com are:
latitude=42.582864
longitude=-088.647355
mag dev=-2.28
range=100 miles

The Madison station is NBC15 at 309.8 degrees, 53.44 miles with an
antenna height of 1269' and power at 56kw ERP/HAAT

The Chicago station is WGN-DT at 135.2 degrees, 71.01 miles with an antenna height of 1486' and power at 645kw ERP/HAAT

My own info is tower height of ~55' and I'm not sure of my elevation although I am in a woodsy area, large trees and a rising elevation southeast of me which is the direction of Chicago for me.
Here you go, John!

See attached radar plot for the results. Longer bars represent stronger signals. The predicted signal strength "in the air" at this location is listed under "Rx_dBm" in the table on the right (your antenna, amp, cable, splitters, receiver, etc. have not been factored in).

My interpretation:

- First, let me say that this location seems to be one of the worst places for co-channel interference that I have ever seen. Either the FCC planning tools are not detailed enough to notice this or you just happen to be at an unfortunate spot between bigger markets where channel re-use collisions are at their worst. The degree of co-channel interference might not be so bad that you'd necessarily notice it all the time, but I hardly ever see my tools generate so many warnings about potential interference.

- It's good that you have your antenna up high. Your location has a slightly lower elevation than surrounding areas and your distance to most of the transmitters means that you need to overcome some terrain and Earth curvature induced signal losses.

- Now, as for receiving WGN, I'm afraid your prospects look pretty bad. The analysis is showing that WMTV is reaching your antennas about 21 dB stronger than WGN. An ATSC tuner needs a minimum of about 15 dB of signal-to-interference ratio (SIR) in order to decode a channel, and in practice you'll want quite a bit more (i.e., 20-25 dB). That means that if you want to watch WGN, you'd need an antenna with a front-to-back ratio of something like 41-46 dB or better. The XG91 has a very good F/B ratio, but even then, you're only going to get about 30-35 dB of separation at best. I doubt you'll be able to find an antenna with enough selectivity to overcome this huge difference. The more practical solution, if possible, is to use a large RF obstruction (e.g., a building, mountains, etc.) behind the antenna to get the desired channel isolation.

Edit: Parabolic dishes have high gain, but their F/B ratio is not necessarily that high (I typically see ~20-30 dB). In this scenario, the F/B ratio matters more than the gain, so I have a feeling that even a dish won't solve the problem, although I must admit that I haven't looked at a whole lot of dish options.

- One interesting observation is that at 55', WMTV has a clear LOS path to your antenna while WGN does not. It is this propagation advantage that gives WMTV most of its 21 dB advantage over WGN. Hypothetically, if you were to lower your antenna to a level below 25', you would put WMTV at about the same disadvantage as WGN, at which point, WMTV would only be about 7 dB stronger than WGN (remember that WMTV is still closer, afterall). At this level, an antenna like the XG91 or DAT-75 might have enough F/B ratio to let you watch WGN. Unfortunately, as the antenna gets lower, all the signal levels drop, and at 25', the signals are starting to get hard to pick up. On paper, it looks like this should work, but it's definitely getting near the limits of what's possible. I actually DO NOT recommend trying this because: a) it's not guaranteed to work, b) it would take a lot of experimentation to get it working, and c) there probably wouldn't be much margin left in the system to help cope with bad weather, blowing trees, etc. On the other hand, if you've got time to kill, have a good signal level meter (to tune every last dB out of the system), and just gotta try it, then that's up to you.

I wish I had better news for you, but there's only so much that can be done when you're trying to dig up a channel from underneath another one.

Good luck!

Best regards,
Andy

decadude

03-11-07, 01:27 AM

i am very new to this and i like what the beginning part said i need to receive a signal from about 50 to 60 miles away

this may be more trouble than what its worth :)

thanks to all that reply

pretzelkid

03-11-07, 01:43 AM

Here you go, John!

I wish I had better news for you, but there's only so much that can be done when you're trying to dig up a channel from underneath another one.

Good luck!

Best regards,
Andy

Thanks so much for doing that Andy, I always say knowledge is power so it looks like I'll just sit tight and hope one channel or the other wises up and reverts to their original analog channel. The station engineer at the Madison channel said that they had to stick on rf 19 (instead of going to their planned rf 15 in 2009) so that a low power station west of them (also on rf 15) wouldn't get squashed...oh well...Thanks again.
John

Tower Guy

03-11-07, 04:33 PM

- Now, as for receiving WGN, I'm afraid your prospects look pretty bad. The analysis is showing that WMTV is reaching your antennas about 21 dB stronger than WGN. An ATSC tuner needs a minimum of about 15 dB of signal-to-interference ratio (SIR) in order to decode a channel, and in practice you'll want quite a bit more (i.e., 20-25 dB). That means that if you want to watch WGN, you'd need an antenna with a front-to-back ratio of something like 41-46 dB or better. The XG91 has a very good F/B ratio, but even then, you're only going to get about 30-35 dB of separation at best. I doubt you'll be able to find an antenna with enough selectivity to overcome this huge difference.

There's one technique that may get what you want for WGN; stagger stacking. This will work because the two stations that you want are 174.6 degrees apart, very close to opposite directions.

Take two identical antennas such as the 91XG. Mount them one above the other, but offset by 1/4 wavelength (5 7/8"), and then use an extra 1/4 electrical wavelength of RG6 (4 7/8") to match the phase from the front of the antenna. Signals from the rear of the antenna will be out of phase. The antenna that is mounted closer to Chicago should have the extra coax length before the combiner. This will add almost 20 db to the F/B ratio of the 91XG on channel 19. 20 db more F/B is what Mr. Lee's calculations suggest is necessary.

Here's a reference with a picture: http://www.anarc.org/wtfda/stagger.pdf see page 3.

When you do this is is advised to re-drill both antenna booms, one back half the distance, and one forward half, but in a location that misses the elements on both antennas. This is designed to balance the windload as much as possible.

KenL

03-11-07, 05:50 PM

There's one technique that may get what you want for WGN; stagger stacking... Such a clean solution it's nearly irresistible. :cool:

And here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9892942&&#post9892942) is a source for (91XG equivalent) Jaycars, delivered (a pair) for less than the price of a single 91XG, so pretzelkid should have no excuse not to try this one. ;)

Wonder if stagger stacking would null WMTV to the point that even a (leaky) channel 19 jointenna might be used to inject WGN back into the 7777 along side whatever the 4228 is rotated toward at any time? That of course would kill WMTV for (any) viewing.

(otherwise it would mean another preamp and run of coax to the house which may be preferable)

Tower Guy

03-11-07, 08:29 PM

Such a clean solution it's nearly irresistible. :cool:

And here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9892942&&#post9892942) is a source for (91XG equivalent) Jaycars, delivered (a pair) for less than the price of a single 91XG, so pretzelkid should have no excuse not to try this one. ;)

Wonder if stagger stacking would null WMTV to the point that even a (leaky) channel 19 jointenna might be used to inject WGN back into the 7777 along side whatever the 4228 is rotated toward at any time? That of course would kill WMTV for (any) viewing.

(otherwise it would mean another preamp and run of coax to the house which may be preferable)

A pair of these Winegard PR9032's would be even cheaper.

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/pr9032.htm

I don't think that a Jointenna has enought rejection to properly couple the WGN antenna to a second rotatable.

pretzelkid

03-12-07, 02:09 AM

There's one technique that may get what you want for WGN; stagger stacking.

That's pretty interesting stuff and I'd be lying if I said my curiosity wasn't tweaked. Andy mentioned possibly lowering the antenna to 25' to get out of LOS to the Madison channel and my roof peak is just about 30' down from the top of the tower...hmmmm... I do have a 5' tripod somewhere in the garage...it would be easier for me to experiment on the roof top first...I'm not a tower climber anyway...with all the posts about 2 for the price of one antennas I'll have to ponder this a while.... :D

WillieAntenna

03-12-07, 10:47 AM

Hi Willie,
That's kinda weird that WGN squashes your Madison channel...I guess a few degrees this way or that way really makes a difference. I'm not really concerned with receiving all the Chicago channels all the time I just used the 2 I do get reliably for reference, with WGN being similar in height (Sears Tower) and power with them. I can't get WLS at all but they are running only 156 kw compared to Fox at 690kw and NBC at 350kw. WBBM-2 out of Chicago is a lost cause as half the people 20 miles from the antenna can't get that channel...the Chicago OTA thread is full of sob stories...I get all the networks out of Milwaukee just fine. It just bugs me to not be able to get WGN.

Not really werid it because I have my CM 4228 w/CM 7777 indoor in second floor 15-20 ft from ground with clear view to the south So I get the best LOS to Chicago and Rockford and I do get Madison 3, 21 & 27 but can't get 15 & 57. I can't get Fox-39 yet until they boot up to 1 MW anytime in next few weeks. Andy is right if you lower the 4228 another 20ft you might get out of Madison LOS. I do have a homemade DB-2 w/CM 7777 and I am able to lock on to Chicago station major station expect PBS. And last night I was building a CH 19 folded dipole antenna and behold I not only I got 9 but also 5, 32 & 50.

-Willie

KenL

03-12-07, 01:28 PM

A pair of these Winegard PR9032's would be even cheaper.

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/pr9032.htm...Actually with the current exchange rate and bulk discount for 2, the Jarcars are only $36 each. With the cheap airmail from down under, it should be about the same as those Winegards.

I'd rather the 91XG equivalents, since the 9032s have unremarkable gain on 19, as well as less front-to-back, compared to the Extreme Gain X-director yagis. For stagger stacking, I'm not sure how the front-to-back would play out between those two pairs....I don't think that a Jointenna has enough rejection to properly couple the WGN antenna to a second rotatable.Probably not. Jointenna likely strikes out, both for lack of rejection and lack of shielding.

KenL

03-12-07, 01:30 PM

That's pretty interesting stuff and I'd be lying if I said my curiosity wasn't tweaked. Andy mentioned possibly lowering the antenna to 25' to get out of LOS to the Madison channel and my roof peak is just about 30' down from the top of the tower...hmmmm... I do have a 5' tripod somewhere in the garage...it would be easier for me to experiment on the roof top first...I'm not a tower climber anyway...with all the posts about 2 for the price of one antennas I'll have to ponder this a while.... :DNow that's what we want to hear. :)

Go for it!

(little to lose in trying and WGN in the balance)

Tower Guy

03-12-07, 09:18 PM

Actually with the current exchange rate and bulk discount for 2, the Jarcars are only $36 each. With the cheap airmail from down under, it should be about the same as those Winegards.

I'd rather the 91XG equivalents, since the 9032s have unremarkable gain on 19, as well as less front-to-back, compared to the Extreme Gain X-director yagis. For stagger stacking, I'm not sure how the front-to-back would play out between those two pairs.Probably not. Jointenna likely strikes out, both for lack of rejection and lack of shielding.

At $36 USD each, I agree; go with Jarcar. The higher F/B ratio will help.

Miriamhill

03-13-07, 06:53 PM

newsposter

03-14-07, 08:09 AM

newsman would be the perfect candidate for an interview..being so close to fox philly and not getting it :)

meeters

03-14-07, 03:54 PM

I bought a Terk HDTVS antenna which I'm going to mount permanently this weekend. I live in a single story ranch and plan to install the antenna in the attic over the garage. I temporarily set it up there last night to make sure it worked and after moving it around for a while I got very good pictures on all the HD channels in my area. My question is - If I install it inside the attic, should I ground antenna?

Thanks.

enier

03-14-07, 04:02 PM

Hi. I'm a reporter for The Philadelphia Inquirer, and I'm writing about people who buy antennas to get better HD TV reception. If you are one of these people, and you live in the Philadelphia, South Jersey or Delaware area, I'd love to interview you for my story. Please e-mail me or call 215-854-5520. Thanks. Miriam Hill

Very interesting... you might have better response in the Philadelphia-OTA thread

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=620626

Intheswamp

03-14-07, 06:33 PM

I bought a Terk HDTVS...<snip>...My question is - If I install it inside the attic, should I ground antenna?

Thanks.
From everything I've read it appears grounding isn't required in the attic.

Ed

wu-infinite

03-24-07, 08:00 PM

I finally found a small antenna that works!
anybody else have this antenna?
http://i.walmart.com/i/p/00/02/66/16/03/0002661603007_500X500.jpg

I bought this Philips antenna at walmart.com for under 50 bucks and I was amazed in the performance, I getting about 24 OTA channels, I don't get all my network channels, but I'm amazed that I'm picking up channels that according to antennaweb.org should be around 60 miles from my location. I finally got to watch some of my favorite shows in hd, and the picture quality is better than the hd channels I get from dish, I know they don't broadcast in true hd. the antenna is not even a foot high and maybe 6" wide. it was definetly a great buy

Zman2342

03-25-07, 04:22 PM

[QUOTE=wu-infinite]I finally found a small antenna that works!
anybody else have this antenna?

I bought this Philips antenna at for under 50 bucks and I was amazed in the performance, I getting about 24 OTA channels, I don't get all my network channels, but I'm amazed that I'm picking up channels that according to should be around 60 miles from my location. I finally got to watch some of my favorite shows in hd, and the picture quality is better than the hd channels I get from dish, I know they don't broadcast in true hd. the antenna is not even a foot high and maybe 6" wide. it was definetly a great buy

Hey wu-infinite,

Did you use this antenna outdoor or indoor? Did you get low Freq. VHF with it or not. Looking for this solution if so. Thanks

dxernut

03-25-07, 06:26 PM

Please post your experiences with antennas, preamps, all related equipment, and installation experiences. Indoor & outdoor. To include mounting, cabling, connectors, rotors, etc.

- Be specific; brands, models, sources, prices, etc.

- What works, what doesn't, and why?

- Tricks of the trade, and unique solutions.

Thanks in advance for your participation. AVS is only as good as it's members, and our members are the best.
I have been up on my roof many times,more than I could count. Today we had excellant weather conditions extream fog 93% humidity 43 degrees at 9 am near Pittsburgh Pa 3/27/07. I decided to fine tune my 91XG Antenna again,this time I took a TV up there with me to moniter live what was happening. I set up the antenna strength display , and began experimenting with height and tilt. It's mounted on the chimney towards the rear of the house.I hand turned just about 1/4 of an inch at a time back and forth .Super sensative adjustment. Finally removed the mast out of it's rotor holder mount and held the antenna at a different location about 9" behind the chimney and my signal came in at 5 bars steady .It is now 1pm and the sun is out good, so conditions are not as good as the mornings were.To achive 5 bars at this time is good. The NEW location of the antenna will be physically impossibly to keep held by hand, so I tried turning the rotor assembly half turn, which helps compansate for the 9" inches . It made a WORLD of difference now I have 5 bars daytime viewing nighttime should at least gain me 2 more bars. Point of the story is I would have never achieved this If I didn't take up a live tv to the roof. I should mention that the channel is 62.5 miles away all the locals come in better also. So don't just believe what the compass says, experiment with different locations on the roof and if at all possible take up a live tv with you.

wu-infinite

03-26-07, 02:35 PM

Hey wu-infinite,

Did you use this antenna outdoor or indoor? Did you get low Freq. VHF with it or not. Looking for this solution if so. Thanks

it is a UHF antenna, does not receive VHF it has an 18db gain. there is another model MANT950 that does receive both, I think circuit city.com has it.
I installed it on my roof, I did not use a mast, just screwed the plate to the top of the roof, and by the way I have giant pine trees all around my house! I took the picture below to show my instal, sorry for the pine needles( by the way look at the size of the pine cone compared to the size of the antenna, you can see is not very large)

http://pic2.picturetrail.com/VOL955/5003586/10327237/240889912.jpg

tnichols

03-29-07, 04:02 PM

I just bought an amplified Terrestrial Digital Lacrosse antenna. I put it up and used a compass to generally aim it at the main TV tower in my area (West of Seattle, WA). I immediately can get 50-65% signal on all the channels. Interestingly the 65% signal is on a tower 90 degrees off of where I aimed the antenna! I still need to go up and fine tune the aiming of the antenna with the signal meter going.

There are two towers that I hope to get signals from. Both are about 35 miles away, and they are about 90 degrees apart from each other at my location.

Does anyone know how the tilt is supposed to be oriented on the Lacrosse? Every picture I've seen of the LaCrosse has it tilted back at about a 30-45 degree angle. It would make more sense to me to aim the face directly at a tower, rather than up into the sky. The documentation on the antenna is incredibly sparse.

kniles

04-03-07, 05:57 PM

sfeitler

04-03-07, 06:08 PM

Hi, I was pointed to this forum by my local OTA group. I have a 10' mast and a RadioShack VU-190 I'd like to install in my backyard. I've checked it out without really installing the mast (husband held the mast up with the antenna on it), and I get a good signal anywhere between 6 and 10 feet above ground level. All I need now is ideas about how to secure the mast.

The location I'm looking at is about 15' away from the house. I have raised gardens; the first level is about 2' high with a brick retaining wall in front of it, and the next level is perhaps 6 inches higher than the first. I'm thinking of digging the dirt out right behind that first retaining wall, and sinking the mast in a foot or two. But I'd sort of like to avoid using concrete, or if I have to use concrete, I'd like to be able to take the mast out easily (so maybe a plastic pipe inside concrete?). I'm hoping the retaining wall will provide some support, but I'm guessing I have to use guy wires or something like that as well. There is a wooden fence perhaps 6 feet behind the proposed mast location, and another one perhaps 6 feet to the right. But probably I shouldn't rely upon wooden fences to hold any sort of load.

Has anyone done an installation like this? Any suggestions?

-Sarah in Colorado

Tower Guy

04-03-07, 08:19 PM

I am using a DB-8 at 25' with a 7777 pre-amp, finely tunned to pick up ABC 63 miles away. I receive a 60-72% signal on my HR10-250. About 5% of the time I have drop outs on windy days. It does work good at night and early morn. but fall off in the day time. ABC HD is new to my area and I suspect ABC is not up to full power. The bottom line is that it is very close to being reliable, but falls a little short for recording HD programming. My question is could I make this 5% a little more stable by adding one more pre-amp, or is there a easy fix to bust the signal a little bit.

A second preamp is apt to make things worse. In some cases you can get better results with a lower gain preamp designed for better overload resistance. Without knowing your exact location it's hard to predict if your 7777 is overloaded or not. The other two things that might help are antenna height and/or antenna gain.

Intheswamp

04-04-07, 09:13 AM

That's a pretty big antenna you've got. I went back and read some of your other posts in other threads

You mentioned mounting the antenna away from your house and possibly burying the cable...you need to acquire some coax that is stated as being for underground burial.

Burying the mast a foot deep definitely isn't going to do the trick. The 10' mast and antenna would be too top-heavy to stand up reliably...throw a breeze at it and there will definitely be trouble. Also, the soil in the raised bed is probably much looser than that of regular yard dirt.

Using concrete for a foot deep hole isn't good either. I would think a minimum of a 2.5-3 foot deep hole with the pipe cemented in would be good. Your idea of embedding a short (larger diameter) pipe in the concrete to slide the mast into is a good one. I would recommend, though, a piece of 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" galvanized water pipe (slide this piece into the short piece embedded in the cement) as the ground contact portion of the mast...the thin-walled mast material really won't last that long in the ground and would probably snap off at ground level when the first moderate wind started swaying it. I've got a 16-gourd wooden purple martin rack built using galvanzied pipe for the pole...the base is concreted into a 3' post hole...it has survived through a few near-misses from some hurricanes. :) A posthole digger and a bag of quickcrete would do the job. You could use an 8' piece of galvanized pipe and attach your mast to it via u-bolts....one bolt high and one bolt low, 3'-4' apart.

If your wooden fence would hold up some potted hanging plants it should hold up an antenna. You could use some eve mounts (radio shack) and mount them onto one of the upright 4"x4" posts...use one at top and one about 3' toward the bottom. That should hold your antenna. As you mentioned in another message, your neighbors might squawk at the idea of a big ol' antenna in the neighborhood and you really do want to be friends with your neighbors. Being in your backyard and no higher than what it will be, I think the only one to be concerned with would be the one on the other side of the fence where the antenna might be mounted. You might want to chat with them about it. Good neighbors are an asset. :)

Do not mount this antenna to the chimney of your hotwater heater, ventpipe for the plumbing, etc., or your regular chimney....I would think it would wreck any of these.

Have you checked your attic yet to see if there is enough room up there to mount it? With the good reception that you reported by just walking the antenna around in the yard the attic would be a very good spot (if your roof isn't metal !)...it would be weatherproofed and all!

Ed

Hi, I was pointed to this forum by my local OTA group. I have a 10' mast and a RadioShack VU-190 I'd like to install in my backyard. I've checked it out without really installing the mast (husband held the mast up with the antenna on it), and I get a good signal anywhere between 6 and 10 feet above ground level. All I need now is ideas about how to secure the mast.

The location I'm looking at is about 15' away from the house. I have raised gardens; the first level is about 2' high with a brick retaining wall in front of it, and the next level is perhaps 6 inches higher than the first. I'm thinking of digging the dirt out right behind that first retaining wall, and sinking the mast in a foot or two. But I'd sort of like to avoid using concrete, or if I have to use concrete, I'd like to be able to take the mast out easily (so maybe a plastic pipe inside concrete?). I'm hoping the retaining wall will provide some support, but I'm guessing I have to use guy wires or something like that as well. There is a wooden fence perhaps 6 feet behind the proposed mast location, and another one perhaps 6 feet to the right. But probably I shouldn't rely upon wooden fences to hold any sort of load.

Has anyone done an installation like this? Any suggestions?

-Sarah in Colorado

sfeitler

04-04-07, 10:47 AM

a more robust mounting arrangement is required for the vu190 because of windload and its size. try grabbing that antenna in the wind out of a rotor mount from the mast. requires two people otherwise you would kill yourself from the force of the antenna being pushed around by the wind. almost impossible to hold on to by yourself.

a fence mount is not an option. in the ground is not that great either. the antenna would not perform to its potential that low.

time to go back to the drawing board.

maybe side wall mount braced with emt conduit instead of guy wires?

If the only concern with the ground mount is the antenna performance, I'm ok with that. I had a UHF-only Winegard antenna mounted on the roof at my old house 2 miles away (we just moved), and it wasn't doing as well as this one does on the ground. As far out from Denver's low-power towers as I am, getting numbers higher than the 70s is unlikely, no matter where I put it...

There are some good side-mount spots on one end of the house, but I'm lazy. If I'm getting "good enough" and it means I don't have to go on the roof, I'll take it. We haven't tried the attic, husband is concerned we'll break all the tabs off of the element brackets if we fold the antenna up again, and we have a 2.5x2.5 foot access hole into the attic, so we'd have to take the antenna apart. Not that we shouldn't try it, but that's why we haven't.

We have upgraded our plans to a 3' hole in the regular old ground, not the raised bed. It's against the retaining wall, and we'll pour concrete in there, and stick in a pvc pipe (or galvanized if we have to, but PVC on galvanized will squeak less). We'll put galvanized inside that pvc. Ed (intheswamp) mentioned putting the mast on the galvanized--is there a reason to do that, or just convenience? I had just thought we could get a length of galvanized that was long enough to put the antenna up 8 feet--so, an 11' length--and put the antenna directly on that.

-Sarah

holl_ands

04-04-07, 08:38 PM

FYI: Here's the Channel Master Off-Air Antenna Installation Guide:
http://www.pctinternational.com/channelmaster/prev/_pdfs/guide_AntennaInstallation.pdf

holl_ands

04-04-07, 09:10 PM

A quote from the ATSC DVD RECORDER Forum:

"Initially the Philips (3505) wouldn't tune in FOX HD anyway, but today I came up with another ingenious idea to connect with plain old-fashioned speaker wire the large barb wire fence of my neighbors, through a signal amplifier, and into the Philips, and BINGO! I got FOX HD."

BARB WIRE---that's just too clever....
The fact that it's his NEIGHBOR'S fence.....PRICELESS...

keenan

04-04-07, 09:35 PM

Barb wire?? Where does the guy live, and who's his neighbor? :D

nybbler

04-04-07, 10:47 PM

Just don't try it with an _electrified_ fence. At least not without a good high-pass filter :-).

vttom

04-10-07, 09:47 PM

Thought folks in this thread might get a kick out of this...

I recently built my own Log Periodic Dipole Array (LPDA) antenna. I found an online LPDA calculator (http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/jolt/345/LogCalc.html) and entered the frequency band from my lowest local HDTV channel, ch13 (WVNY-DT) to the highest, ch53 (WCAX-DT). It spit out the number of elements and all the dimensions.

I then proceeded to assemble it using some scrap wood for the "backbone", old aluminum curtain rods (cut to length using tin snips) as the elements, and picture-hanging wire (a cheap and readily-available uninsulated conductor). For the downlead, I simply chopped one end off a short piece of RG6 patch cable and attached it to the screws at the feedpoint.

I located the antenna under the roof of my garage (this ain't exactly a weather-tight antenna), about 15ft off the ground.

I also added an inline VHF/UHF amplifier from RadioShack (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103913) to drive the ~40ft. of RG6 cable to my first tuner on one leg of a splitter, and then another ~40ft. of RG6 on the other leg of the splitter to my second tuner.

The performance is excellent. I get all the local HDTV stations with very high signal strength. Although it does help that I have LoS to all of the local HD transmitters, which are co-located atop the same mountain (Mt. Mansfield) 20-30 miles away.

Picture from the back -> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=78206
Close up -> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=78207

sfeitler

04-11-07, 02:10 PM

Beautiful! How long is your board? How many elements?

-Sarah

Thought folks in this thread might get a kick out of this...

I recently built my own Log Periodic Dipole Array (LPDA) antenna. I found an online LPDA calculator (http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/jolt/345/LogCalc.html) and entered the frequency band from my lowest local HDTV channel, ch13 (WVNY-DT) to the highest, ch53 (WCAX-DT). It spit out the number of elements and all the dimensions.

I then proceeded to assemble it using some scrap wood for the "backbone", old aluminum curtain rods (cut to length using tin snips) as the elements, and picture-hanging wire (a cheap and readily-available uninsulated conductor). For the downlead, I simply chopped one end off a short piece of RG6 patch cable and attached it to the screws at the feedpoint.

I located the antenna under the roof of my garage (this ain't exactly a weather-tight antenna), about 15ft off the ground.

I also added an inline VHF/UHF amplifier from RadioShack (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103913) to drive the ~40ft. of RG6 cable to my first tuner on one leg of a splitter, and then another ~40ft. of RG6 on the other leg of the splitter to my second tuner.

The performance is excellent. I get all the local HDTV stations with very high signal strength. Although it does help that I have LoS to all of the local HD transmitters, which are co-located atop the same mountain (Mt. Mansfield) 20-30 miles away.

Picture from the back -> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=78206
Close up -> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=78207

vttom

04-11-07, 03:03 PM

Beautiful! How long is your board? How many elements?It's about 4ft long and has 22 elements (11 dipoles).

willscary

04-14-07, 08:08 PM

Alright...long time AVS member here. Also a long time HDTV forum lurker. I have always had Charter cable and a year ago added the HD package. Unfortunately, after being a happy customer for 18 years, they are going to raise my subscription price by about 40% in a month. When I found out, I called desperately for DSL to replace the cable internet. I received an email the other day that a new hub close to my home will be up and running in a few weeks!

That means a dish and DSL and goodbye Charter! Instead of paying the $5/ month for local stations in standard def, I decided to put up an antenna.

Antennaweb says I can not get my locals in HD because I live on the wrong side of a large hill and the towers are all 37 miles away from me. Outdoor mounting is frowned on by my wife and I would be afraid of lightning and wind anyways because the north and west horizons are viewable to about 15 miles from my bedroom windows. The east, however, is blocked by the hill.

I took a flier and mounted an Antennacraft MXU59 in my attic. Space is tight in the attic. The bottom of the back yagi is buried about an inch into the isulation. The top of the back yagi hits the rafters. The nose of the antenna is resting on a very small nail protruding through the exterior sheathing into the attic. the antenna was aimed at 92 degrees. All of my digital stations are between 88 degrees and 96 degrees and are all 37-38 miles away. The nose of the antenna sits 26' above ground level.

SUCCESS! All stations come in crystal clear! First try even! BUT...I have a question. I have success running the signal through 25' of quad shielded 18ga solid copper RG6 to a brand new Samsung 19" LCD TV in my bedroom. My signal strength on the TV is, at worst, 6-7 bars on the PBS station and is 8-10 bars on all other stations. I want to split this signal either 3 or 4 ways and run each of the splits to other TVs in the house. From the antenna, I have 25' of cable to the 3 or 4 way splitter. From there, one will go nearly directly into the 19" bedroom LCD. The other 3 will each travel 50' through the same quad shield 18ga. solid copper RG6 to 2 or 3 other TVs. My question is this...do I get the Winegard Chromestar AP-8275 and mount it next to the antena? Will this get me full bars at all locations after the split and cable runs? I am considering the 8275 because the UHF antenna does a fairly decent job picking up the local channel 11. In 2009, I am finding that channel 11 will move its HDTV back to this frequency and I thought I may need a VHF/UHF amp to receive it well on the Antennacraft UHF antenna. (I don't want to get an amp that filters VHF, and I am not sure that simply passing it will allow enough signal from an antenna that is no listed as VHF.

Any suggestions on the amp situation?

Thanks,

Bill

vttom

04-15-07, 01:44 PM

That means a dish and DSL and goodbye Charter! Instead of paying the $5/ month for local stations in standard def, I decided to put up an antenna.I don't have an answer for your primary question about the amplifier, but I did want to clarify one thing for you... If you subscribe to DishNetwork and get something like the ViP622, which is an HD PVR with ATSC tuner, you still need to subscribe to the locals package in order for the programming info for the OTA HD locals to show up in your EPG. Without the locals package, you can still tune in the OTA locals, you just don't see any programming info in the guide, which makes DVRing programs difficult.

Tobias Ziegler

04-15-07, 02:13 PM

Neil L

04-15-07, 04:13 PM

Has anyone seen mention of commercially produced antennas being redesigned in anticipation of UHF channel 51 being the new highest channel number?I've been wondering the same thing. Have not seen anything advertised yet, though. Many are made for the world market, not just the US, so there may already be something in production that will work well here in the US.Since any multiple-channel antenna's design is a compromise, I'd think that the optimum dimensions for channels 14-51 would be different than those for channels 14-69.This is true. Generally a Yagi is tuned to near the highest frequency it needs to receive, as sensitivity drops of much faster above the tuned frequency than below. The multiple bow-tie style seems to work very well already in the low to mid UHF range.

WillieAntenna

04-15-07, 07:30 PM

Here's a general question, folks. Has anyone seen mention of commercially produced antennas being redesigned in anticipation of UHF channel 51 being the new highest channel number? Since any multiple-channel antenna's design is a compromise, I'd think that the optimum dimensions for channels 14-51 would be different than those for channels 14-69.

I think it won't happen until after late 2008 or in 2009 with FCC is trying to ( not madate ) push every one off 2-6 to VHF-high or UHF, then the commercially made antenna could make a 7-51 ch antenna. That would cut down on the wide VHF elements.

Channel Master is making a 2 bay antenna ( small Directional antenna) now that is good for VHF-high and UHF, have not seen the prices on it, the size is just half of the 4-bay 4221.

Tobias Ziegler

04-15-07, 11:03 PM

holl_ands

04-16-07, 02:44 AM

[QUOTE=WillieAntenna]I think it won't happen until after late 2008 or in 2009

I have to wonder if they aren't in the middle of a surge in antenna sales compared to the last 30 years or so, as people try for digital reception to get HD.

I'd just as soon they'd bring new designs to market now, so I could be buying something for the long term. If I'm not going to be trying to pull in anything above ch 51, I'd rather have my UHF antenna tuned for mid/high 40s. If I had a CM 4221, I guess I could do something to lengthen the bowtie elements, but it seems that proper retuning would also involve increasing the distance between the plane of the bowties and the plane of the reflector; and maybe the distance between the bowties themselves.

While I'm typing, can someone answer something else for me? I seem to remember that when the HDTV format was being evaluated back in the early/mid 90s that the plan was to move everything off of VHF, and return those bands to the FCC for other uses. Now that I'm getting around to trying for over the air reception, I'm seeing that I'm going to need a high band VHF antenna. Is my memory faulty, or was there some kind of change made along the way that nobody consulted me on ? :p
Apparently "they" didn't consult with everyone....
The lower VHF band was picked by 43 DTV stations....8 more than now:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0001/t.1158.html
Probably saves some money to reuse antenna and high power feeds and maybe the high power amp.
But big savings are in a greatly reduced monthly electric bill---with extended range coverage.

====================================
I remember seeing a European manufacturer who offered a standard 4-Bay design, except the
bottommost wires were nearly twice as long.
Hence the lower half of the bottom Bay was "tuned" for extended low freq response.
I wouldn't cringe too much re VSWR and all that---cuz any antenna covering 2:1 in UHF band is already compromised.

But it also compromised the VHF "design", cuz the reflector isn't big enough...and is too close.

I would rather see some sort of VHF Yagi (even if only 2 or 3 elements) to reject multipath on the rear of the antenna.

WillieAntenna

04-16-07, 11:52 AM

cm4220 dbd gain
Ch7 -19
13 -8
14 7.7
21 6.8
33 8.6
42 8.1
55 6.6
68 8.3

nothing special on vhf high band. maybe yellow and darkgreen outside.

Rick, I can get WMVS PBS Analog 10 DT-8 is 43 miles away, with Ant web set at antenna location and 2nd story with no height set in the option and it did not show WMVS but at 200-500 feet height it show in the red and I am able to lock it in. The antenna set up I have is the homemade DB-2 antenna and CM 7777 preamp. The antenna set up in 2nd floor apartment inside it about 2 ft off the floor. I just got my Sammy 260 last Friday and it can't pick up the DT 8 but my Polaroid can pick it up and lock it. But as soon I settle in my new place I will get my CM 4228 set back up and see what more I can get hoping to get some Chicago station back. As at my old place I was able to pick up analog 7,9,10 well with the 4228 and 7777 not picture perfect but watchable.

As you said before, there is so many varables to take in.

You won't know until you try it. As I like to try to build one or do something different to get better siginal, just much as you do trying different setup at your house, you won't know how it will turn out until you tried it.

Yes people laugh at my homemade antenna, but I get the last laugh because the the looks on thier faces :eek: when they see the picture quality is good as or better than what they paid for thier oversize antenna. :D "Priceless"

-Willie

Tim Lones

04-17-07, 12:57 PM

I just bought a Terk 44 clip on antenna to use with my Dish Network 622 HD receiver. I attempted to install it myself..bad move..With moving the Cabling around I lost my 129 Satellite signal..Had to have an installer re connect it. He connected the cables back and tried to hook the 44 up but it still doesnt work..(got my 129 back though)..My question is..Can this be made to work with a 1 receiver- 2-tuner-3 satellite system..I left the antenna on the dish. Took off the antenna cable inside..Doesnt seem to affect the Satellites so they are still ok..Thanks for any suggestions.

willscary

04-19-07, 06:58 PM

Well, I bought the AP-8275. I installed the amp and introduced a 4 output splitter into the path directly after the power module. Even though I went from a direct connection to the antenna to a connection through a 4 way splitter, my signal strength gained 1 to 2 bars on a 10 bar scale. I now have a solid 8 bars on PBS and 10 (with an occational momentary blip to 9 bars) on all other stations!

In the attic, on the back side of a hill, 37 miles away from all stations, I have acheived what is basically a 95% signal for all 7 local HD channels by using an Antennacraft MXU59 antenna and a Winegard AP-8275 preamp after a 4 way split. I am a very happy person right now!

Total cost:

Antenna: $44.29

Preamp: $55.20

Quad Shield cable 3 @ 25' + 1 @ 12' + 3 @ 3' and a 4 way splitter $72.10

dqtmg2

04-20-07, 11:55 AM

If you subscribe to DishNetwork and get something like the ViP622, which is an HD PVR with ATSC tuner, you still need to subscribe to the locals package in order for the programming info for the OTA HD locals to show up in your EPG. Without the locals package, you can still tune in the OTA locals, you just don't see any programming info in the guide, which makes DVRing programs difficult.

I was just about to do what you are talking about here. I do want to DVR OTA locals but do not want to pay DISH for them. When you say it is difficult, what exactly do you mean? Is it not possible at all, or just a much more manual process? Could I still set up their VIP622 to record OTA local shows at the same time every week outside of the guide? Also, will I be able to pause, rewind, etc. the local OTA channels without subscribing?

tim

Anthony R

04-20-07, 02:40 PM

Hello All:

I had posted a similar type of question in another thread, but thought it might be better put here:

My question: I need a short-term indoor antenna solution (08859 zip code), and I am looking to test out the Terk HDTVi or HDTVa over the next few days (I do also have a Phillips Silver Sensor on order, but it won’t be arriving for a week or so). I think that the Terk HDTVi and HDTVa are the EXACT same antenna except for the additional add-on amplifier that comes with the HDTVa. Is this correct….are they otherwise the exact same antenna? Assuming this is so, then (rather then buy both) I would presume that I could just buy the HDTVa and test it out both with and without the amplifier added on. Which brings up the next question….would the HDTVa even work without the amp added on?

Any help on these questions would be appreciated.

vttom

04-20-07, 03:57 PM

I would presume that I could just buy the HDTVa and test it out both with and without the amplifier added on. Which brings up the next question….would the HDTVa even work without the amp added on?I don't know for sure, because I don't own either Terk antenna, but you may find that the amplifier is integrated into the housing of the antenna. If so, you might be able to try it without powering the amplifier, but having it in-line but un-powered might actually reduce the signal more than if there were no amplifier at all.

So, to be safe, you might want to try them both.

Also, the Silver Sensor is a great antenna, but it has trouble in the VHF band, so it might work for you or it might not, depending on whether you have any station broadcasting in the VHF band, how close they are, at what power, etc.

willscary

04-24-07, 09:11 PM

Well, a new experiment. I bought a second MXU59. I pointed it northwest towards Wausau (my first antenna is pointed east towards Green Bay). Although I am pointing directly at the Green Bay stations from inside my attic, I live on the west side of a large hill, 37 miles from the Green Bay tower locations. The Wausau stations are about 60 miles away, but my view in that direction is clear.

Originally, after hooking up the MXU59 in the attic to a AP-8275 amp and then to a 4 way splitter, my signal strengths were superb. I decided I wanted to try to get Wausau and Wittenberg stations. I bought a second antenna and aimed it as close as I could towards Wittenberg. I am about 5 degrees north of where I want to be, and pointed about 19 degrees north of the Wausau stations.

Before the second antenna, the Wausau stations would come in after dark with about a 10% signal strength. Now, the Green Bay stations have lost about 20% of their signal (down to 70-80% on all but PBS, which dropped to 55-65%), but I picked up ALL the northern channels with a 70-100% signal!

These channels are redundant during prime time, but have different programming at other times. This includes sporting events. The Packers are in their home market in Green Bay, but there are times when the Wausau stations can carry the second game of a double header when Green Bay stations can not. There are times when different games are fed to the Wausau market. This is SOOOO cool!

rgharrin

04-25-07, 12:04 PM

WillieAntenna

04-25-07, 02:54 PM

How many of us have invested in a UHF antenna because
all the stations in Green Bay are UHF?

Wouldn't life be a lot simpler, if WLUK stayed on channel 51?

As consumers, don't we have anything to say about it?

Complaining to WLUK, gets no response.

Doesn't anyone represent us?

In Madison, Fox is going the other way, from 11 to 47.

I have a cm 4228. If you need the 4228 for UHF then you're too
far away for it to be valuable for VHF.
I pick up channel 51 (strong) but nothing from analog 11.

Madison Fox 47 (DT-11) will be staying on 11 after analog shutdown.

Where are you located at ? I currently have a homebuilt DB-2 2-bay antenna with Channel Master 7777 preamp and I get Madison 47 (DT-11) that is 60 miles away and I get Milwaukee PBS 10 ( DT-8 ) 43 miles away with no problem. I also have a 4228 but not have set it up yet. Channel Master has just came out with a 2-Bay antenna CM 4220 it a little brother to the 4221 4-bay.

-Willie

willscary

04-25-07, 07:15 PM

My MXU59 has no problems getting analog channel 11 clearly. For that matter, analog channels 9 and 7 out of Wausau are clear also. Analog 2 and 5 out of Green Bay come in, but they have interference lines (diagonal zig zags).

These antennas are UHF only, but do a good job on upper VHF. I purposely bought the AP-8275 because it amplifies both UHF and VHF. I am hoping that when ths switch comes, and 11 goes back to 11 (and 7 goes back to 7), I will still be able to pick them up cleanly in the digital format. With the success I have had, I am thinking positively that this will most likely work out.

Bill

willscary

04-26-07, 06:41 AM

Last night I changed one of the lengths of RG6. I had been running a 3 ft pc of RG6 from each antenna to the combiner, then another 3 ft pc to the amplifier head. I was getting wild changes on Green Bay channel 5 signal strength. It would go from 70 to 80% to 0 to 10%, then back to 70 to 80%. This only happened during the daytime yesterday.

I immediately thought of interference between antennas, so I unplugged the Wausau antenna and things settled down immediately and signal strength went up to 90% on channel 5.

I then replaced the 3' RG6 on the Wausau antenna with a 25' long RG6 still coiled up as it was originally packaged. The Wausau stations are now at 70-90% signal strength and the Green Bay stations are all up to 85-95% with no drops.

I hope these results help some of you.

rgharrin

04-26-07, 09:06 AM

Willie,
I am 70 mi from Wausau, Green Bay, and Madison. I'm probably lucky
I get anything. Madison is blocked by trees (many and tall). Wausau
last I checked put out weak signals in HD (56kW and 117kW).

I do have a clear shot at the horizon for Green Bay.
ABC, CBS, Fox, come in consistently. PBS can be iffy.
NBC is not dependable. I'm talking about HD out of GB.

ABC-HD does it right. Reception is always strong with there non-directional
1000 kW transmitter

Willscary do you get Wausau in HD from 60 miles?

lovebohn

04-26-07, 09:38 AM

willscary,

Are you just using a splitter to combine the two different antennas? I can see this causing a problem like you described above. Most of the time if your using two different antennas you need to use something like the jointenna's http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/Jointennas.htm I'm not a pro on this topic but with you signal strength bouncing around your receiver was getting mixed signals with the different stations. Combining two antennas will not boost the signal and will just cause problems like your seeing unless you have a very directional antenna. The jointenna's will block a set channel frequency to help stop this problem. I don't know why the longer cable helped with Wausau, I could see if your Green Bay stations with the addition of the amp was over powered and you added it to that antenna if may help. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Dave

lovebohn

04-26-07, 09:44 AM

Anthony R

04-26-07, 02:50 PM

Hello all:

Does anyone know if it is possible to use a Silver Sensor (PHDTV1) antenna with a Channel Master 3041 pre-amp? The problem seems to be that the Silver Sensor has a coax output, whereas the 3041 has a twin-lead input. Is there an adapter (or some other connector available from some website) which would allow me to join the Sensor’s coax output with the 3041’s twin-lead input?

Any help on this would be appreciated.

willscary

04-26-07, 06:41 PM

I live on the southwest corner of New London, just out of the city limits. The Green Bay towers on Scray's Hill in Depere are 38 miles east of me, as are the towers in Suring (2 are at 88 degrees and the other 5 are at 96 degrees). The Wausau towers for channels 7, 9 and 20 are 60 miles northwest of me. The Fox 55 tower is in Wittenberg about 58 miles northwest of me (7, 9 and 20 are at 312 degrees and 55 is at 326 degrees).

I pointed the first antenna directly at NBC 26 (because it is weak) at 96 degrees and I was able to get a consistant 95-100% signal on 2, 5, 11, 26 and 32, 90% on 14 and 80% on 38. At night 7 and 9 would come in after dark on this antenna. It is in my attic with a high power AP-8275 preamp and all RG6 quad shield cable. The signal is then split FOUR ways.

I decided the other day that I would buy a second antenna and point it towards Wausau because 7 has different games on then CBS 5 does and I like the variety. I also work in Wausau, so I like the news once in a while. I pointed the second antenna at 330 degrees (closest I could get due to attic constraints) and ran a short RG6 into a splitter to pick up both antennas. From the splitter (combiner) I have a 3' RG6 going to the preamp.

The first night every thing was fine. The added antenna cost me about 20% on all Green Bay channels due to the added noise floor of the second antenna. Channels 9 and 20 from Wausau are showing a signal strength of 90% while channel 7 is at 60%. Nighttime viewing was excellent. But then I came home and turned the TV on in the afternoon and channel 5 had a signal that was bouncing all over.

I figured I had interfering signals between the two antennas, so I unhooked the Wausau antenna and everything stabilized. All Green Bay signals went way back up and channel 5 was again fine.

I thought about this. I removed the 3' long RG6 that connected the Wausau antenna to the splitter/ combiner. Channel 5 instantly cleared up and went to 80% signal strength. I replaced the 3' coax with a 25' RG6 between the Wausau antenna and the combiner. Channel 5 stayed at 80% while the other Green Bay stations went back up to 90% except for channel 38, which only rose back to 60%. Wausau channels 9 and 20 are both at 90%, while channel 7 is at 60%. All channels lock 100% of the time with no dropouts.

I live on the west side of a hill. Green Bay is on the other side and is a problem. Wausau is a clear shot...I can see about 20 miles to the horizon when I look northwest. The Wausau towers are quite a bit higher in elevation.

If only I could figure out a way to rotate the Wausau antenna about 10 degrees farther west...I am sure I could get 7 in at 90%. Damn old farmhouse attic!

Bill