I don't want to sound like a jerk. Can it be made simpler?

What I am trying to minimize is the number of connections and cables. If I go with the above plan, I would need 2 Balun Transformers, 3 segments of coax cables and a water proof VHF/UHF combiner.

The transformer and (twin-lead) combiner cost just $0.69 and $0.49 respectively. Whats inside them?
A VHF/UHF Combiner would have inductors and capacitors inside,
which can degrade/change frequency if they get moist.

I haven't seen any claims re whether Philips PH-61006 (aka CV72) is intended
for outdoor use. Perhaps you can check the bubble pack when you find one.

FYI: Radio Shack makes a similar unit:
http://www.radioshack.com/sm-300-ohm-coax-combiner-splitter--pi-2062060.html
Since they don't mark it for outdoor use, it's probably indoor only.

What I described above using OUTDOOR components will survive the elements
through multiple seasons....a cheap indoor alternative could rapidly degrade...
The UVSJ actually has low insertion loss SPECS....the first sign of a quality product.

After a week or so, how do you feel about your new system in comparison to your old VU-190? Walter

Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to study normal reception since I wrote my original posting because I left on a trip a couple days afterward. I'm on the road right now, so further reports will have to wait until after I return home.

I can add that the night before I left, a storm front moved through which greatly enhanced propagation from the northeast for several hours. All the Charlotte-area stations came in unusually strongly, and I was able to watch four stations from the Greensboro NC area (about 150 miles) whose digital signals I had never seen before: WGHP, WXLV, WCWG, and one whose call letters I've forgotten. I managed to record snippets of them, so eventually I'll create a DX section on my Web page (referenced below) and put screenshots there.

I would appreciate some advice and input on how best to install these two antennas.Top antenna is a xg91uhf (8' boom), uderneath a funke psp1922 vhf
(13' boom)I realy can't afford a tower so I need some advice on how best to do it.I am attaching some pictures of my house(i hope) The peak to ground is approx.20'.The chimney is approx.the same.So it's ether side of house or chimney.Thanks -Ed

South Bend should be ENE from Laporte. I'm assuming the satellite dish is on the South side, but it's not clear if the other two pictures show the East side of the house.

With these antennas, you probably will want to DX? So perhaps the side of the house doesn't matter anyway.

Ed,

I would check around and see if you can locate some used tower. In today's age, I have found it pretty easy to find it.

As for a new tower, I would call around and get some prices. Not many people are purchasing towers with unemployment at record levels (OH, MI), that installers are willing to shave a couple of bucks of their rate. However, the materials are expensive (tower).

Let us know what you think...

I would appreciate some advice and input on how best to install these two antennas.Top antenna is a xg91uhf (8' boom), uderneath a funke psp1922 vhf
(13' boom)I realy can't afford a tower so I need some advice on how best to do it.I am attaching some pictures of my house(i hope) The peak to ground is approx.20'.The chimney is approx.the same.So it's ether side of house or chimney.Thanks -Ed

Falcon I already get so.bend with a DB4 mounted in the attic,this setup is for chicago W.N.W.Thanks also Rick and pctools.I have a guy coming out this morning for a tower quote.If it's to high I'll have to go to plan B .Thanks again-1edmon

P.S.
Falcon that dish you see is not in use,had Direct tv for 5 yrs. I am now going to be a O.T.A GUY ONLY.

check around and see if you can locate some used tower. In today's age, I have found it pretty easy to find.Good advice. That is what I did. Found my 40ft tower standing on the site of an empty commercial building. Asked the owner if I could have it, and he said sure. So we took it down, and moved it to my house. Only cost the time to take it down, and put it back up, and about $50 for some new hardware and paint (it was knda rusty, so we sanded it down and painted it to match the green metal roof on the house).

Nice...

Good advice. That is what I did. Found my 40ft tower standing on the site of an empty commercial building. Asked the owner if I could have it, and he said sure. So we took it down, and moved it to my house. Only cost the time to take it down, and put it back up, and about $50 for some new hardware and paint (it was knda rusty, so we sanded it down and painted it to match the green metal roof on the house).

to 1edmon, the end of my house like yours with that high apex. My 30ft. telescoping mast is at the 12 ft. level of the rise of the apex by a bedroom window. I have 17 or so feet above the roof line where a 91XG is at the top. Soon I'll be adding a VHF antenna to this set-up. Mine is bolted to the eave and has two large size mounts into the side of the house; one is into the concrete block and the other is into the attic to a 2X4--the outside is just stucco over wall board so the antenna mount goes into an attic 2X4. The bottom 15 inches of mast is in concrete. It's all grounded to a grounding block and ground rod. soon I'll have additional height when a rotor is added. So your house is similar to mine looks like. Setups will be similar but I haven't decided on a VHF antenna yet.

I would appreciate some advice and input on how best to install these two antennas.Thanks -Ed


side mount on tallest side of the home on the left of the first picture . support the structure with emt conduit for added stability like in picture instead of guy wires ...at the peak. The emt gives you something to hold onto and lean against while you are working up there.

make sure you have something sturdy to bold into on the side of the home. sometimes those peaks are prefab with not much sturdy inside. I use pressure treated 2"x12" or there abouts lag bolted to the studs and mount the bracket over that.

I couldn't see Rick's pic very well, but I'd assume something similar to this:

30 CM foot telescoping mast resting on concrete or a suitable footer

Wall mounts x 2 on the way up strapping to the house

Eave mount at the apex for further strapping

I used a PVC pipe cap on the bottom of the mast (with a hole drilled in the bottom for drainage) just to keep the mast from resting directly on the footer/concrete.:)

I also installed the mast upside down (thickest at the top) for added stiffness where it counts.

bozey45,that sounds like a plan.That 1st. picture,the one with the grill,is the side of the house facing west towards chicago.So what I would do is sink the mast into 2' of concrete and bolt it to the wall w/4" hvy.duty wall mounts spaced approx. 7' apart and bolted w/carrage bolts that will go through 2x4 backing in the attic.My question is what gage,dia and size telescoping mast did you use and where did you get it.With this set up I would have about 7' to 8' above the roof peak.The last mount would be right under the peak.

cpcat you replied while I was typing,that's a good hint on caping the bottom with a weep hole.As i mentioned got to find out were to purchase mast.

This looks like what I used. Lowe's used to carry it but I'm not sure if they still do.

http://www.weisd.com/store2/CM%201630.html

Thank's cpcat and all you guys for your advice,looks like i'm going to use a telescope mast to to ground and mount it to the side of the house. I just got my xg91 delivered today,got a call from MAX HD,I'll be getting my funke psp1922 tues.I'm off to lowes and menards to see if I can get mast local,if not will order from wholesale electronics.
Thanks again

Hi Guys, I was wondering if anyone can share some real world performance experience with the 91XG. I am considering getting one at some point mainly for DX work as well as local. This thing sounds on paper, but I would like some user input. I live in a 2nd floor apt approx 12ft AGL and have an exsiting antenna on 20ft mast on my balcony with marginal to fair results. Any and all input would be appreciated.
Thanks

What kind of antenna are you using now?
You can see how it did against a few other antennas here. Download Bob Chase's report.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=381623&highlight=ctdish&page=93

John

Holl_ands...

how was NAB, any news about Antennas Directs CEA909A antennas (or even other vendors?)

Is a manual antenna rotator commercially available?

I've been using my digital tuner for about 3 months, and I'm realizing I would only need to use a rotator when the weather is great (i.e. good tropo), and a distant station interferes with a low powered local station.

By manual, do you mean turning the antenna pole by hand ?

Not that Im aware of, but you can make it yourself. Pound a pole in the ground that is slightly less than the ID of the antenna mast. Then have the antenna supported by guy wires connected to the ground and to a guy wire ring high up on the mast. You can then turn the mast by hand. By drilling holes in various points near the bottom of the mast and pole, you can create the mast lock in your commonly used positions.

I don't want to start a flame war here but I would have to disagree with this outlook on testing. First the response I gave was for real world results for the 91xg. I don't consider computer simulations "real world".
As far as which is more accurate simulation or testing either can be done completely wrong or get accurate results. Computer modeling requires complex software and a detailed physical description of the antenna. These are approximations to the real world but can give useful results. The gold standard of antenna performance measurement has always been on a controlled antenna test range. Bob's test while not on a range was close enough to the transmitters so propagation was not time varying and he had access to test equipment that most of can not afford that is necessary to see signal levels accurately. He did not measure the gain of the antennas but did provide information to accurately see the gain differences between the tested antennas. And while he did not measure gain at every channel he did have measurements on many channels spread over the TV bands.
For most locations selecting any of the higher rated antennas that cover the channels needed will produce results that will be OK. In most weaker locations propagation variations will be much bigger than the gain differences in antennas.
John
I do not see much merit in those kind of point and shoot antenna testing results.

Doubt that there is an accurate antenna test doing it this way.

Computer simulation range testing is more accurate I was told. Can you even trust those kinds of tests???

You do not need meters or tests...Just select from the top couple uhf antennas and pick one. cm4228 and 91xg.

If you have multipath or want to stack antennas select the 91xg. all the other uhf antennas out there perform worse. It is really just that simple.

By manual, do you mean turning the antenna pole by hand ?

Not that Im aware of, but you can make it yourself. Pound a pole in the ground that is slightly less than the ID of the antenna mast. Then have the antenna supported by guy wires connected to the ground and to a guy wire ring high up on the mast. You can then turn the mast by hand. By drilling holes in various points near the bottom of the mast and pole, you can create the mast lock in your commonly used positions.
Yes I would like to turn it by hand. I have the antenna eave mounted, and I can get directly beneath it by opening a window which leads to the porch roof. I guess I could make one by placing something on the porch roof to hold the mast.

I am looking for some advice. I currently have a DB-8 mounted on the chimney, and it is picking up the Denver locals from Lookout Mountain well. At the digital transition date, two of the locals are moving back to VHF High (channel 7 and channel 9). I am worried my DB-8 is going to have a difficult time picking them up noise free at that time. I noticed that the Channel Master 8 bay bow tie has better gain in the VHF High band because of it's single piece back reflector. I was wondering if I joined the separate back reflectors of the DB-8 if it might improve the gain and reception in the VHF portion of the band I am looking for post transition? Any ideas or guidance would be very appreciated, as I am hoping to avoid having to mount both a DB-8 and a VHF antenna on mast and rotator.

My setup also includes a CM-7777 preamp.

Thanks,
Jeff

I live within distance of two different markets. The main market antenna farm is 37 miles away. I live on the back side of a hill and need to be 35' above ground to have a clear line of sight to the towers. All are within 7 degrees of eachother. Currently, I have an Antennacraft MXU-59 hanging in the attic. With a CM amp, I have a 80' RG6 cable run to a 2 way splitter. From there, another 20' to each TV. The second antenna farm is 230 degrees from the first, 62 miles away and can be picked up by the attic mounted MXU-59 at night. If I rotate the antenna to face these antennas, I get excellent reception on a 2 skip path at all times of the day. I can see clearly in that direction for over 10 miles.

I get very good reception with an occasional late afternoon dropout period on a few of the weaker channels. I have been planning a 40' tower, but I live near the top of the hill and all of my trees around the house are either lightning damaged or have been destroyed by damage, including one last year.

I am considering buying a pair of 4228s and mounting them on the outside face of the exterior walls. The local antenna farm is due east of me (90 degrees plus or minus 4 degrees) with the top of the hill directly in its path. I could mount this antenna right under the eave on the east wall of the house. I could then mount the other antenna on the same place on the west wall, but angle it north by 50 degrees to get the second market stations.

Are there adverse effects of mounting antennas on a wall? I am hoping that this would minimize any multipath and front to rear problems and I could then combine the two antennas without the normal interference. Will this work? Wind and lightning would be less of a problem (I would think!) and the house would hopefully block signals from the rear of each antenna.

Another thought...could I then remove the screen from behind the elements? Would the house do a better job ar rejecting signals from the rear? (especially if the elements were mounted nearly directly to the house!!????)

Please comment!

Bill

Bill,
I always recommend doing as little as necessary, and if the MXU-59 is fine for one antenna farm, aim it there and be done with it, so you can focus on what you need to receive the other antenna farm reliably.

For the other farm, an external wall mounting would improve on the other antenna's attic performance, and a multi-bay array like the CM4228 is better-suited to wall mounting than a Yagi. You'll need another pre-amp, but between the two, the 3-4dB combiner loss will be trivial. I would leave the reflector on even if mounting directly to a metal building because reflector spacing affects frequency gain.

I hope this helps,
Frank

Frank,

Thanks for the reply! The reason i was thinking of a pair of 4 bays is because I thought that perhaps the outside mount would be better than the attic mount. Right now I get a late afternoon dropout here and there, but it is not good when it is during a race or ballgame.

I have really been planning a tower. It would be great to have one, and my wife doesn't mind, but I AM worried about lightning. I figured the 4 bay would be mounted about 24' above ground, the same height as the MXU-59 in the attic, but it would not be shooting through vinyl siding, 2" insulation, 1-1/4" of 100 yr old wood siding and sheathing, plus the studs and rafters on a very old dutch colonial.

I had planned on joining the two in the attic (a pair of 12' runs), then an amp for the 80' to the splitter in the basement.

I like the MXU-59s. They are flimsy, but in the attic, who cares?? Will the 4 bay give me about the same performance? If I mount it on the exterior wall, will it be better or will the house wall come into play and wreak havok with the signal? If I leave the screen on, will it work just as if it was mast mounted at the same height, or will it be better because of a huge signal drop from confilcting stations from the rear?

Thanks again,

Bill

CT

No pissing match is wanted nor is it necessary.

a computer simulation on a controlled test range is the conventional way to test/measure an antenna...like it or not.

unfortunately to my embassassment , it was explained that real world testing of antennas are not considered an accurate means of testing an antenna. Computer simulation on a range is how antennas are to be tested.

what you described in your explanation is exactly why those sorts of tests should be taken with a grain of salt. Any individual any place in the world can put up and test a handful of antennas, under their own "controlled environment" and say one antenna is better than another with their meter. Real world testing as you explain it. Isnt that what we all do here...one way or another.

Antenna analysis is far from an exact science. real world testing does not get you closer...to exact.
ILLR ITM (Individual Location Longley-Rice Irregular Terrain Model) used by
FCC/NTIA, Antennaweb.org, TVFool, Radio Mobile, Splat!, et. al. is a
mix of Line-of-Sight (with ground bounce), Single Knife Edge Diffraction
and Multiple Diffraction models melded into a statistical signal strength
data base (dating back as much as 50-60 years). The stats can vary
quite a bit depending on percentage of Locations and Time you chose:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=94800&d=1195561571
The inherent "sigma" is on the order of 6 to 10 dB (or more), depending
on whose comparison report you read last....give or take uncertainties wrt
ground bounce gain, clutter loss, desensitization due to VSWR mismatch,
tree loss, backscatter/sidescatter and other uncertainties.....

I know what an antenna test range test is, e.g. Kerry Cozad's test results:
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/pdf/Measured%20Performance%20Parameters%20for%20Receive%20Antenn as%20.pdf
https://secure.connect.pbs.org/conferences/technology/2005/Sessions/TC05_43.htm
But results can be significantly influenced by constructive/destructive
effects of the ground bounce component....as you raise/lower antenna to
find the "sweet spot" for each test frequency....
RF absorbing material can suppress ground bounce, but is ineffective at VHF.
[And I doubt ANY was employed in Kerry Cozad's OUTDOOR test range....]
[Indoor RF anechoic chambers for UHF are rather large...and VHF are truly HUGE!!!!]
Or use high TX/RX test locations (e.g. hill top to hill top).

NEC computer simulations (IN FREE SPACE) are typically used to derive
manufacturer's spec sheet data (when they dare to)...and fol. results:
www.hdtvprimer.com/antennas/comparing.html
But results are different when the antenna is mounted within a few feet
of your rooftop....or in an attic....or anywhere near other buildings....
Not too mention the simplifications in most of these models.....

I know NEC can be used to model antennas in "real" environments, which
is usually limited to HF band (and maybe a simplified VHF scenario)
due to simulation complexity.
For VHF/UHF you would need to model yours & many of your neighbors roofs,
joist nail plates, plumbing, A/C equipment, interior wiring, antennas,
metal gutters, et. al....whatever diffracts/reflects RF energy....

So what the heck is a "computer simulation on a range"?????
Is it anything like live motion capture animation????
Or a Hybrid mix of reality and computer simuation....like ROGER RABBIT????

Will the 4 bay give me about the same performance? If I mount it on the exterior wall, will it be better or will the house wall come into play and wreak havok with the signal?

The 4 bays will work fine mounted near a wall. You can aim two of them in different directions. You may find it hard to combine them. If you are lucky a splitter used backwards will work. You could have an A/B switch, or a system of Jointennas.

I wouldn't buy a tower until you found that the wall mounted antennas didn't work.

So exactly WHAT is the computer "simulating"?????

So exactly WHAT is the computer "simulating"?????


RF and its interaction with the antenna:P


John.

A computer simulation on a controlled test range is the conventional way to test/measure an antenna.
It's an oxymoron. That is, a contradiction in terms. Why would a simulation (which can exist entirely in the "virtual" world of a computer algorithm) need to done on a test range (something that is very much part of the "real" world)?

Guys (and gals) that design antennas for a living use both tools. Computer simulation to arrive at an optimized design and then range testing of a prototype to verify the simulation.

In this day and age, antennas are quite well understood. Don't confuse antenna design with overall system design that includes the huge variable (at least for terrestrial links) known as "propagation".

Ron

A pretty cool animation:

http://math.ucr.edu/~jdp/Relativity/EM_Propagation.html

Ron

It's an oxymoron. That is, a contradiction in terms. Why would a simulation (which can exist entirely in the "virtual" world of a computer algorithm) need to done on a test range (something that is very much part of the "real" world)?

Guys (and gals) that design antennas for a living use both tools. Computer simulation to arrive at an optimized design and then range testing of a prototype to verify the simulation.

In this day and age, antennas are quite well understood. Don't confuse antenna design with overall system design that includes the huge variable (at least for terrestrial links) known as "propagation".

Ron

Exactly correct. As a former emplyee of the US Navy's outdoor antenna test range at Patuxent River I would have to completely agree.

Computer simulation of an antenna is the fastest way to optimize a design. An antenna designer may optimize forward gain, front to back ratio, and input impedance without actually building or measuring anything.

The demo program that can be downloaded from the following web site is sufficient to model some of the TV antennas that are commonly used.
http://www.eznec.com/

The limitations of EZNEC is that is cannot model irregular terrain in front of the antenna. Software that can be used to evaluate terrain is described here:
http://www.arrl.org/notes/9876/HFTA.pdf Terrian modeling is more useful on VHF than UHF.

None of the software accounts for foliage.

Bottom line, use the software to compare antennas and optimize antenna heights, but be aware that the software doesn't account for all variables.

sorry really should have said...a computer subsystem added to the instrumentation to automate the entire measurement process in a controlled environment.

input impedance
polarization
directivity
gain
radiation efficiency
radiation pattern
etc.

you can not achieve a controlled environment at "home".
-there are so many variables.
-the choice of channels to test are different in different markets
-similar antennas perform differently on different channels
-conditions change from second to second
-the antennas need to be mounted at the exact same place, same height, and you need to aim exactly the same.
-etc. etc.

the cm 4228, for example, may work great at joe's house 8 miles from the towers and crappy across town at rick's house the same distance from towers...because the variables at their homes are different. even if they used the same equipment to measure.

Reception and antennas are not an exact science. if you want high performance you select from the appropriate antennas at the top end of the tier and go from there. the top performing uhf antennas are cm4228 and 91 xg, for example. they would perform about the same relatively speaking. It all depends on the variables at your home...a zillion of them...of which antenna would work best.

therefore those kinds of tests as mention above should be questioned (at bob's house 8 miles from towers). I prefer reading results from a controlled environment...antenna testing range variety assisted with a computer subsystem with the best professional equipment available.
I would have understood better if you had said "Automated Data Acquisition System".

The only "simulation" seems to be approximating an actual TV signal
via an unmodulated swept RF carrier.

NEC simulations, Range Tests and PPP (Propagation Prediction Programs) each
have a valuable piece of information to contribute....and real world test results
are also extremely valuable. We need MORE on-air comparison tests like Bob Chase's.

REALITY is the best Simulation....

If you have access to a spectrum analyzer and a pre-amp you could measure the real world gain of any UHF antenna using the sun. That would take many of the local error sources like terrain and trees out of the measurement.

OMG!!!

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but in the antennasdirect.com manual for installing antennas, it has this warning:

WARNING
Do not attempt to install if drunk, pregnant or both.
Do not eat antenna.
Do not throw antenna at spouse.

Source: http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/generic_instructions.pdf

Man I was taking those instructions seriously until the last minute..

If you have access to a spectrum analyzer and a pre-amp you could measure the real world gain of any UHF antenna using the sun. That would take many of the local error sources like terrain and trees out of the measurement.
Local TV signals would swamp any signals coming from the sun....fortunately....
otherwise we would ALL be watching the "SUN" channel.

Wow, with all of this information overload, we should all be antenna design engineers by the end of the week.:rolleyes:

OMG!!!

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but in the antennasdirect.com manual for installing antennas, it has this warning:
Source: http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/generic_instructions.pdf
Man I was taking those instructions seriously until the last minute..


HA HA HA HA HA!!!
:D

Yes I would like to turn it by hand. I have the antenna eave mounted, and I can get directly beneath it by opening a window which leads to the porch roof. I guess I could make one by placing something on the porch roof to hold the mast.

That sounds like a good situation for "manual" rotor. What you need is something on the porch to serve as a pivot and a lock for the mast (or mast extension). Then you can loosen the eave mount clamps slightly so turning would be possible.
Good Luck.

Local TV signals would swamp any signals coming from the sun....fortunately....
otherwise we would ALL be watching the "SUN" channel.

Not really. Unless the local signals are strong enough to saturate the pre-amp(s), with the antenna aimed at the sun, the choice of analyzer settings can prevent their interference. Specifically, attention to the choice of frequency and RBW on the analyzer is made to prevent this. Since the sun is a broadband noise source whose value is measured everyday it makes an excellent calibrated point source and analyzer RBW does not affect the results (other than mentioned to prevent interference). I perform this measurement often using UHF and VHF parabolas and it's quite accurate.

two of the locals are moving back to VHF High (channel 7 and channel 9). I am worried my DB-8 is going to have a difficult time picking them up noise free at that time.

How do the current analog signals look on ch 7 and 9?

How do the current analog signals look on ch 7 and 9?

Channel 9 analog looks fine. Channel 7 is just ok, with some horizontal noise bars across the screen.

My XG-91 is performing quite well... but in my situation, I'd like to get more signal and have things be more stable.... so I've decided to stack 2 of them. What is the criteria one uses to decide if you stack vertically or horizonatally?

Vertical stack will narrow the vertical gain pattern, while a horizontal stack will narrow the gain field horizontally. In most cases horizontal will yield a little better results. What will work even better, is to get you antenna in a position where there is more signal. That usually mean either higher, or a different location where the signal is hotter.

Can someone recommend an antenna based on the pic below? I want to be able to view all the stations, but am unsure which one I need..

Thanks,
Tony

Tony,

What's your ZIP code? I'd like to plug it into TVFool since the AntennaWeb site tends to be way too conservative about what you can receive.

I tested it both ways, and horizontal stacking yielded better results. If you decide to drive forward with this, just shoot me a PM, and I can go over the process.

Go here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13898183#post13898183


My XG-91 is performing quite well... but in my situation, I'd like to get more signal and have things be more stable.... so I've decided to stack 2 of them. What is the criteria one uses to decide if you stack vertically or horizonatally?

Well, Tony, the color coding is described at the antennaweb site
http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/info.aspx?page=more_info#mark

You then have to look for UHF vs VHF stations and find that VHF only needs yellow, but UHF needs red. That's about all you get from antennaweb - small multi-directional VHF plus a small directional UHF antenna outdoors. All antennas have the little color wheels, and you can make a choice based on that.

If, however, you posted the results from TVFool.com, you'll find a lot more detail and precision because the modeling is more sophisticated. It doesn't sell antennas, it gives you a rational basis for choosing one.

Frank

Midwest users, this will be a great weekend for some DX'ing. I have not seen the map light up like this in years.

Check here: http://www.dxinfocentre.com/tropo.html

And by the way, it was a night and day difference using the Funke 1922 over the Winegard 1731. Holy Cow, I might buy another one from Greg!

Tony,

What's your ZIP code? I'd like to plug it into TVFool since the AntennaWeb site tends to be way too conservative about what you can receive.


My zip is 79416. I went to the tvfool website, and all of my channels are green or yellow. It said something about a medium gain antenna would get these channels. The antenna will go outside the house, attached to the eve of the house or the fireplace. It is a single story house. Do I have to worry about zeroing in an antenna to the tower, like you do with a satellite dish?

Thanks for all the help!
Tony

My zip is 79416.
We should all have it this easy!

I think a small to medium directional antenna that gets high VHF and UHF, with no amplification, would be enough. Get one with a relatively wide beam width (30-40 degrees or more) aimed at about 130 degrees and you should be good to go.

We should all have it this easy!

I think a small to medium directional antenna that gets high VHF and UHF, with no amplification, would be enough. Get one with a relatively wide beam width (30-40 degrees or more) aimed at about 130 degrees and you should be good to go.

Got any recommendations for a good antenna that fits this? How do I aim it at 130 degrees?

Got any recommendations for a good antenna that fits this? How do I aim it at 130 degrees?
I don't know too much about this class of antenna from personal experience, so I'd leave that for others who do. I think a single medium directional antenna that gets both UHF and high VHF is fine in your case, since these signals are strong enough that you don't need to maximize gain. I'd start by keeping it as simple as possible in your case; I see no need to spend a LOT of time and money on getting the "just right" setup when your information indicates that an adequate single UHF/VHF antenna pointed in the right place with no preamp is likely sufficient. In your case, don't let pursuit of the perfect be the enemy of the "good enough." You have a lot of strong signals, all of which are in the same general direction.

"Aim it at about 130" means that you point the antenna in the direction where front of the antenna points to 130 degrees azimuth. 0 is north, 90 is due east, 180 is due south and 270 is due west, so you'd be basically pointing it to the southeast.

All of your signals are between about 111 and 141 in azimuth (see the TVFool output), meaning they are all to your southeast. That's a 30 degree band. So if you get a medium directional with more than 30 degrees of beam width (that is, it's good at picking up a signal within a 30 degree arc or more) and point the antenna toward somewhere in the middle of the 111-141 range, you should be able to get just about everything listed in green and yellow. Fine-tuning it in that general direction, preferably with a helper to shout out the signal strengths from various directions and for VHF/UHF) will make it much easier.

You don't really need a compass to aim it exactly at 130 or anything else. But if you know generally which way is due southeast, you'll be close and can swivel it a little bit until you have good digital reception on everything. It's not nearly as exact as aligning a satellite dish.

Thanks for the help Ziggy. Ive had cable/satellite all of my life and have never used an antenna before.

Ive been eyeballing this antenna http://channelmasterstore.com/Channel-Master-3016-HDTV-VHFUHFFM-Advantage/M/B000BSFK7Y.htm with this new information. Does anyone have an opinion on this and my specific area? Or would this be a good matchup?

Hi All:

Just found out that I will have a future digital VHF channel 6 about 51 miles away over rather flat land. I have two identical 25-year-old Radio Shack FM-only yagi antennas (the larger of the two long-discontinued models, 10 or 12 elements, I think). They are essentially brand-new, as they have always only been used in the attic, and they provided good FM reception (prior to digital FM hiss splatter) for stations 75+ miles away.

I realize that the FM band (88-108 MHz) is a little off from VHF channel 6 (82-88 MHz), and of course it will depend on the power of the digital channel 6. But with no other VHF-low channels coming to my area, I was wondering if an FM-only yagi of this sort could possibly work well as a single-channel antenna for this future channel 6.

Thanks in advance...

I realize that the FM band (88-108 MHz) is a little off from VHF channel 6 (82-88 MHz), and of course it will depend on the power of the digital channel 6. But with no other VHF-low channels coming to my area, I was wondering if an FM-only yagi of this sort could possibly work well as a single-channel antenna for this future channel 6.
Most likely an FM yagi would have some gain for channel 6. But my concern is that FM interference would overwhelm channel 6.

If there was a chance to return it if it didn't work, it might be interesting to get a VHF preamp with an FM trap for this one. You might need a preamp from 51 miles out anyway, depending on the gain of the antenna, and maybe the FM trap could attenuate the signals from 88-108 MHz. I don't know how well it would work, but it would be an interesting experiment...

100% agree with ziggy...

Brian Breezley (K6STI) NEC simulation results for FM Antennas:
http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/curves.htm
http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/index.html
[Also includes HD Radio Receiver reviews, et. al.....]

Since an FM antenna has already been optimized to cover the 20 MHz wide FM Band,
VSWR and hence gain are gonna nosedive as you try to go down yet another 6 MHz.
So try to extrapolate where you think the gain curve will be a couple inches to the left...
Some are pretty good....others are really bad....

PS: In addition to gain loss, VSWR mis-match can result in ADDITIONAL DTV sensitivity loss
(in below papers, Oded Bendov calls it an increase in Noise Figure):
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/dtv%20coverage%20and%20service%20prediction.pdf
http://www.tvantenna.tv/papers/PFactorsV.pdf

Since an FM antenna has already been optimized to cover the 20 MHz wide FM Band, VSWR and hence gain are gonna nosedive as you try to go down yet another 6 MHz. So try to extrapolate where you think the gain curve will be a couple inches to the left...Some are pretty good....others are really bad....

Right, and agreed. But unless we know the specifics of this antenna, we don't know if it's one that plummets quickly below 88 MHz. So I still say if someone felt confident that they could return a preamp with FM trap if it fails to work and they don't mind the labor, it's worth trying, most likely. If it's an antenna with significant gain from 82-88 MHz, it may work well. If it's one that drops off sharply below 88, maybe not. Without knowing the specific antenna, it's hard to say.

[Edit to add: Plus, there's a decent chance between now and 2/2009, some low VHF stations will be reassigned elsewhere since pretty much all stations now assigned to low VHF are trying to move. I wouldn't spend much money or effort trying to get stations that *might* be on low VHF next year until I knew it was a done deal. If we get to December and the channel hasn't changed, it might be time to make the investment.]

If you already have the antennas i would see how they worked out.
I wouldnt put a ton of effort into them.. but hey see what you got.

If not then get a VHF low band yagi.

John

A couple of years ago, I had a FM yagi that I wasn't using so I had the same idea, only I was looking at receiving a channel 5 from 70 miles away. I thought that since Yagi antennas drop off in gain more gradually below the design frequency that above, it might work. It didn't. Reception of that channel is usually fairly good here with a wide band VHF antenna, but the FM just didn't produce anything on channel 5.

Or, spend some time on the antenna making thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265&page=10
and find some neat ideas for cheap-but-effective VHF bowtie antennas.
Frank

You could also try a simple UHF loop:http://www.cnaweb.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1843 Holl_ands, what would be the technical difference as an indoor aerial between a UHF round loop, a UHF rectangular loop, a UHF flat-panel array, and a UHF outline bow-tie?

UHF round loop examples: RCA ANT110 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANT110), CNA 72-121 (http://www.cnaweb.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1843)

UHF rectangular loop example: RCA ANT111 (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp;jsessionid=1MAR2WXIV12YHKC4D3OVAHI?skuId=8280834&type=product&id=1171058630499)

UHF flat panel array example:Philips SDV2210/17 (http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/en/us/consumer/cc/_onlineStoreStatus_false/_productid_SDV2210_17_US_CONSUMER/_retailStoreStatus_true/_stores_true/TV-antenna+SDV2210-17)

UHF outline bow-tie example: Radio Shack 15-234 (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&pg=2&parentPage=family)

Fol. is a comprehensive indoor antenna test report:
http://www.ricability-digitaltv.org.uk/test-reports.htm
Many of the (Chinese made) antennas probably have a U.S. "brand name" equivalent.
Also note many do not have rabbit ears for VHF.
There is no clear "winner" as to whether one style of design is
inherently better than another....individual design seems more important.

Highly rated, non-amplified Silver Sensor was in the middle of the pack....
but they didn't test the amplified model...which now includes rabbit ears for VHF:
http://www.beachaudio.com/Philips/Ph-Dtv3-p-75938.html?utm_campaign=froogle&utm_content=reg&utm_term=ph-dtv3&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=froogle&GTKW=ph-dtv3&GCID=C12585x003

They also didn't test a simple bow-tie (no doubt worse than a big loop)...and no VHF.

=========================
Amplified antennas tend to be better, mostly because the designer can try to
minimize VSWR problems....presuming you aren't "too close" to a nearby tower.

Among non-amplified models, those with a "tuning knob" to tweak VSWR probably
have somewhat better performance...but are very inconvenient....

The Silver Sensor has deeper nulls that can be positioned to minimize multipath
and would be my preference vs a Loop...which picks up multipath interference
because, unfortunately, it's BI-DIRECTIONAL:
http://www.dielectric.com/broadcast/pdf/Measured%20Performance%20Parameters%20for%20Receive%20Antenn as%20.pdf
https://secure.connect.pbs.org/conferences/technology/2005/Sessions/TC05_43.htm

Zip file below contains spread sheets showing detailed VHF and UHF gain
improvement for Silver Sensor vs RCA Loop/Rabbit Ears.

Some on-air comparison tests:
http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/antin.htm
http://www.hdtvmagazine.com/archives/8vsbcbstst.html

Recent antenna lab test reported at NAB2008:
http://www.walb.com/Global/story.asp?S=8346127
Includes unamplified (UHF Only) Silver Sensor, but does not
include amplified Silver Sensor with VHF Rabbit Ears.
Measured Noise Figure for some amplified antennas...
but doesn't list important F/B Ratio for multipath suppression.

UK Indoor Aerial Measurements Report (Issue 1.0):
http://www.dtg.org.uk/publications/books.html
Unfortunately no brand names....guess which (periodic) is Silver Sensor....
Some of these are very poor....some amplified models even oscillate....

========================================
It should be obvious that indoor antennas are inherently
low performance, suitable mostly for short range reception.

If it isn't enough, consider a 2-Bay, 4-Bay or even 8-Bay antenna.
[I have an 8-Bay in an upstairs closet.]

Smart Antenna technology also may provide improved performance.

It should be obvious that indoor antennas are inherently low performance, suitable mostly for short range reception.

If it isn't enough, consider a 2-Bay, 4-Bay or even 8-Bay antenna. [I have an 8-Bay in an upstairs closet.]

Smart Antenna technology also may provide improved performance. The linked articles were very helpful. I'm in a suburban condo location in hilly Seattle near the airport, 11 to 23 miles from transmitters located in five distinct directions around my home. I've had middling experiences with several indoor aerials, including the Silver Sensor. I also tried a Channel Master 4221 indoors but it's just too big to use in a small condo home where my DTV channels are located in different locations.

Later this summer I may work with my fellow condo owners at putting up a rooftop aerial - complicated by the knowledge that three of my DTV channels revert to UHF in February 2009. I'll also look into Smart Antennas when they show up on the market. In the meantime, I have to report that out of fifteen different indoor antennas I've tried here - some amplified, but most nonamplified, not much of a clear consensus.

Thank you very much for the articles and information.

Several times I've posted results of various on-air tests which found Indoor Loss
(using same antenna) was about 13 dB (+/- 7 dB):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7892248
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7891979

Bob Chase's attic was at high end of this range...very little due to loss of height:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7839036
Indoor Loss and Antenna Height Gain are somewhat intertwined...higher is better....

Here's a test from U.K. comparing UHF Silver Sensor indoors vs hi-gain outdoor antenna:
http://www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/settop.html

I'd like to start off by thanking everyone in this thread.

The information that has been posted has been extremely valuable. I've only just recently started to dabble in Over the Air digital television reception and without this thread, I doubt I would have even been inspired to even consider a do-it-yourself homemade antenna project.

Needless to say, like many others, I have been amazed at some of the results I have gotten so far up to this point.

So far, I have built a number of antennas. I haven't given all of them serious testing. The ones I am having somewhat problems with, I will get to later on and I am hoping others may have some suggestions. That is even if the ideas will work at all.

Below is a photo of the VHF/UHF attic antenna. It pulls in most digital signals, but there are problems on a few stations (Analog reception is fine on all channels except for a very slight ghost on CBS 2, but it is not very annoying). I was going to buy a pre-amp but then I stumbled on the do-it-yourself antenna thread and decided to give that a shot first.

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/5492/atticuhfvhffk2.jpg


Here is the TV Fool information on available channels......


http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9489/channels1wi3.jpg


There were big problems with the digital signals from PBS Channel 13 and CBS Channel 2. They would be weak at many times and pixelate an awful lot.

I built two antennas. A homemade DB4 and a homemade DB8. The DB4 increased performance and I didn't seem to get any noticeable increase in performance from the DB8 that I built (The DB8 was not built with a reflector screen because the DB4 actually performed worse when tested with a reflector screen).

Below are several pictures of the DB4 clone currently installed in the attic.....


http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8973/atticdigital1ph0.jpg


http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/699/atticdigital2kt5.jpg

The performance of this DB4 clone has been outstanding until this past month. I even pick up CBS from Philadelphia. However, since some nearby trees have grown in recently, there have been a few problems with a couple of stations.

Basically the primary problems are back to being CBS 2 and PBS 13. The signal on some other channels seems to have gone lower, but the picture is still good and crystal clear..... And that is without even going through a splitter.

I'm sure a pre-amp may be in my future, but I put together a few other antennas maybe thinking that could be avoided.

I built a Gray-Hoverman and put together a few other antennas. I'll discuss them and show pictures in my next post.

Continued.........

I need to make this useless post on the board before I can make further posts.

More on the antennas coming next.....

Thats a sweet 4 bow tie antenna TVNY.

Here are some other antennas I built and put together..........

I built a Gray-Hoverman and I was surprised at the performance I was getting on channels that I previously had problems. However, with this antenna I had problems with other channels. That problem may disappear when all channels are changed in February 2009. I can't say for sure.

http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/4710/grayhov1dw0.jpg


One of the best antennas I built was a DB4 clone that could be installed near the television. I put it on a wooden stand......

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/595/db41rq0.jpg


http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/3865/db42wz4.jpg


Sitting on bench after being built... click here... (http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4063/db43xy6.jpg)


There are some antennas with parabolic screens that I plan on testing....

This one seems to be promising... but I'm not sure....

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/1329/parabolic2yo4.jpg

For a larger image, click here... (http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/9821/antenna12zm0.jpg)


I was wondering what others thought about parabolic reflector screens for antennas.

I had a few parabolic antennas in the garage from the old days when HBO was broadcast over the air (It was on microwave frequencies back then and required down converters).

I'm curious as to if a DB2 can be used as a feed horn. I'd also like to know the optimal length of the feed horn from the parabolic elements of possible.

I don't even know if this is feasible. That is why I would like to know what others have to say.

Here is another possible antenna design with a 24db parabolic screen designed for "wireless cable".............


http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/9948/antenna11ou7.jpg

Another angle here.......


http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/6507/antenna1tl6.jpg


I think these parabolic reflector ideas may have something to them, but there are so many variables.

Does anyone else have any ideas regarding their use?

Thats a sweet 4 bow tie antenna TVNY.

Thanks bro.

A parabolic reflector is best for a single frequency. For a wider bandwidth, commercial antennas have their reflectors at a 90 degree angle.

I'm curious as to if a DB2 can be used as a feed horn. I'd also like to know the optimal length of the feed horn from the parabolic elements of possible.


Nice workmanship.

For parabolas, the elements need to be placed at the focal point. You will need to know the radius of the reflector bend. Google for the formula of the focal point of an elipse. But that reflector you have is too small for effective parabola performance, it will act more like a regular reflector. Commercial uhf TV parabolas were/are 5 to 7 feet in diameter.

Both the Hoverman and Bow-ties dont really come into their own without a reflector. For the Hoverman flat reflector it should be 100mm, plus or minus 15mm. Also I noticed you used the old 44mm element feed spacing. Recent modeling tests have shown 95mm will increase gain. Check the Hoverman thread at http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=81982&page=33

For the bow-ties check the How-to-build-uhf antenna thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265&page=10 With mclapps 15 inch reflector spacing, you may be able to get channel 8.

Both the Hoverman and 4 bay bowties will out perform the uhf section of that commercial vhf/uhf combo. But I noticed you have a real channel 8 digitial at -53.4. The vhf/uhf combo will be superior for that channel. After next February, how many stations will you have on vhf-high and vhf-low ?

Here's a test from U.K. comparing UHF Silver Sensor indoors vs hi-gain outdoor antenna:
http://www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/settop.html

This was a good read, thanks. As it states, you can't get something from nothing. In other words amplifying a bad signal is not likely to help. Amps add no directionality, or real gain.

Those "contract aerials" seem to be quite popular in the UK, but I'd imagine they would work just fine in many areas of the US (paired with a VHF antenna). They seem to avoid bow-ties, however, for reasons still unknown to me.

When it comes to Antenna making, you are better at just purchasing them. For your so-called, 24dB gain parabolic, I would say you need some more tweaking. Let's not forgot about VSWR's. These can kill your radio.

For $50, I would just buy a mass produced model.

When it comes to Antenna making, you are better at just purchasing them. For your so-called, 24dB gain parabolic, I would say you need some more tweaking. Let's not forgot about VSWR's. These can kill your radio.

For $50, I would just buy a mass produced model.

You might want to read that again, he said it was a parabolic from a 24db wireless cable set-up. I don't think he was claiming his antenna was making 24 db.

It looks like He's having fun with it and probably learning more about antennas along the way.

VSWR's might kill your signal to the receiver but they won't kill your receiver, it will damage a transmitter though.

When it comes to Antenna making, you are better at just purchasing them. For your so-called, 24dB gain parabolic, I would say you need some more tweaking. Let's not forgot about VSWR's. These can kill your radio.

For $50, I would just buy a mass produced model.


Well, of course one could just buy the antenna .. but thats not the fun
of the whole process for the experimenter. One gets a kick modeling
and tinkering with these things and using the knowledge in your own
head to sometimes even surpaass whats available on the market..
Durability .. thats another issue.


John

Variable standing wave reflection ratio(VSWR), will send ununsed power back into your radio. Depending on your equipment, it will damage the head-unit, that is the network card which is the reciever / transmitter. You want to have this less than 1.5.

I use a 24dB parabloic antenna with a 1 watt amplifier for my WISP. The amplifier also has a built in 10dB pre-amp. I have used the 30dB gain (Stage 5) in the past. This baby is a monster. If you cannot get your signal with this baby, it cannot be DONE! Put a 1 watt amp behind this and you will push this signal over 50 miles. (Just don't stand in front of these antennas). The gain factor of these with an amp is incredible.

http://www.radiolabs.com/products/antennas/2.4gig/stage5.php

VSWR's might kill your signal to the receiver but they won't kill your receiver, it will damage a transmitter though.

Thought I would upload some pictures of Greg's new tower, as he is having some problems getting these to upload.

Here she is:

Variable standing wave reflection ratio(VSWR), will send ununsed power back into your radio.

VSWR is Voltage standing wave ratio.

Opps, thanks.

25 years in amature radio, and I got busted.. :eek:

VSWR is Voltage standing wave ratio.

Thought I would upload some pictures of Greg's new tower, as he is having some problems getting these to upload.



Am I seeing it right? The tower is between two sets of power lines? I'm guessing one set is from the utility pole, the other set goes to the garage?

I know they're insulated, but....: :eek:

Some people like living on the edge I guess.

That definately is on the scary side.

I don't know about others, but I've certainly had good luck using the fm antenna from my receiver. It's just a thin little cable with a cable type connector on the end that plugs into the back of my hddvr. Get all the locals in hd now and didn't have to spend a dime on an antenna.

Hey all,

I'm looking for some advice on an antenna for my new Samsung LN52a550 LCD tv.

According to antennaweb the majority of my DTV signals are ~3 mile away at 14 to 23 degrees. The one exception is the local ABC station which is 35.5 miles at 276 degrees.

One other constraint. I live in a townhouse style apartment, so an outdoor unit is not an option. Also, the path toward the majority of signals is clear, but I have a thick line of trees to the West (toward ABC).

Any siggestions for a viable option?

Hey all,

I'm looking for some advice on an antenna for my new Samsung LN52a550 LCD tv.

According to antennaweb the majority of my DTV signals are ~3 mile away at 14 to 23 degrees. The one exception is the local ABC station which is 35.5 miles at 276 degrees.

One other constraint. I live in a townhouse style apartment, so an outdoor unit is not an option. Also, the path toward the majority of signals is clear, but I have a thick line of trees to the West (toward ABC).

Any siggestions for a viable option?


Technically, IIRC there is a 1996 fcc ruling (law??) that allows you to put up an outdoor antenna. If a landlord or condo association wants to fight it in a specific instance, they are responsible for all the legal costs for doing so.

But if you want to try an indoor option, I would build a Hoverman or a 4 bay bowtie without a reflector and give that a try and see if you can get the local ABC station.

Panasonic TC-26LX70

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-26lx70/4507-6482_7-32425780.html

Sony Wega KDE-42XBR950

http://b2b.sony.com/Solutions/product-detail.do?&prodId=30764&catId=21868

I recently got a TV for my mother and I'm thinking about getting her and myself a HDTV Antenna...?

My Sony plasma specs says it has a built in Tuner, does that mean I don't need to buy an antenna? My other question is I'm looking for a quality Tuner for the Panasonic tv

http://img397.imageshack.us/img397/9781/a1xr5.png

the lines lead to the towers near me, it would have to be an indoor antenna.

My Antenna Zones:
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/5218/antennazoneyellowandredbx2.jpg
http://img112.imageshack.us/img112/1893/antennazoneblueandviolepr2.jpg

Can anyone help me? (I'd also like to mention while I can buy it online I prefer to do it in a retail store.)

I've been looking at these, are they the right choice?
http://www.jr.com/terk/pe/TRK_TV1/
http://www.jr.com/terk/pe/TRK_HDTVA/
http://www.jr.com/terk/pe/TRK_HDTVI/

Anyone using the Philips MANT950 inside?

http://www.amazon.com/Philips-MANT950-Outdoor-Amplified-Antenna/dp/B000E1TO6Q

Everyone I read in this thread is using it outside or in the attic. I'm not in the mood to do an attic or outside run as my current RG-6/59 is used for my feed from Dish.

My trusty +50dB gain Philips MANT510 works well in the winter, but fails miserably in the spring/summer when the leaves come back.

Looks like a spin-off of those Terk antennas.

Anyone using the Philips MANT950 inside?

http://www.amazon.com/Philips-MANT950-Outdoor-Amplified-Antenna/dp/B000E1TO6Q

Everyone I read in this thread is using it outside or in the attic. I'm not in the mood to do an attic or outside run as my current RG-6/59 is used for my feed from Dish.

My trusty +50dB gain Philips MANT510 works well in the winter, but fails miserably in the spring/summer when the leaves come back.

Technically, IIRC there is a 1996 fcc ruling (law??) that allows you to put up an outdoor antenna. If a landlord or condo association wants to fight it in a specific instance, they are responsible for all the legal costs for doing so.



I am aware of that law. I have Directv, but am unable to get a JD signal due to lack of a sightline with the HD satelites (I get SD directv though).

Anyway when I had the dish installed the management company acknowledged that theu, by law, cannot prevent me from installing a dish, but they also indicated that when I vacated the property I needed to leave the condition of the buildeing EXACTLY as when I moved in. Meaning I couls nor attach anything to the exterior of the building with nails, screws, glue, etc. In other words, they can't prevent you from having an antenna, but they cAN make it virtually impossible to install one.

Anyway, my dish is sitting in a bucket of cement on my patio. I looked into some OTA antenna attachments that would fit on the dish, and I guess that is still an option if indoor doesn't work.

Added a little more information to my last post.

Added a little more information to my last post.


The TVs need to have an ATSC tunner. Check the front for a label or the owners manual. They need some kind of antenna. At 3.5 miles from the transmitters probably not too much will be required. Try a loop or rabbit ears if you can find them, higher priced antennas are only a little better, some are worse. Keep away from any antenna with an amplifier- it will likely cause more harm than good.
John

The TVs need to have an ATSC tunner. Check the front for a label or the owners manual. They need some kind of antenna. At 3.5 miles from the transmitters probably not too much will be required. Try a loop or rabbit ears if you can find them, higher priced antennas are only a little better, some are worse. Keep away from any antenna with an amplifier- it will likely cause more harm than good.
John

Alright thanks! So the different colors won't mean a thing due to my close proximity?

We just bought a digital converter box and hooked up the only antenna we have, an old UHF loop / VHF combo. Now, we live in a basement level apartment with a north facing window, and have placed the antenna on a window ledge that barely puts it a foot above ground level. Sadly, outdoor antennas are not an option here.

Our antenna works pretty well, generally, but we'd like to get another off-the-shelf antenna that will boost the overall signal strength (seems to be 60 to 70 percent right now) because our PBS, ABC, and FOX channels have a little more "artifacting" than we'd like (they fluctuate between 40 and 60 percent). We'd also like to be able to pull in our local MyTV affiliate and a distant Ion affiliate that are both giving us a weak, unusable signal right now (20 to 30 percent).

Here is the TV Fool data for those specific channels we'd like to give a boost (Lansing, MI area, 48911):

Call Real (Virt) Network Xmit(kW) Rx(dBm) Path Dist(mi) Azimuth
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
WSYM-DT 38 (47.1) FOX 925.82 -46.0 LOS 17.2 190°
WLAJ-DT 51 (53.1) ABC 826.44 -48.7 LOS 20.5 170°
WKAR-DT 55 (23.1) PBS 54.60 -53.5 LOS 9.2 94°
WHTV-DT 34 (18.1) MyN 1.96 -67.9 LOS 11.1 98°
WZPX-DT 44 (43.1) ION 212.00 -56.3 LOS 24.1 265°

Like I said, the first three on that list come in at 40 to 60 percent and have periodic artifacts that we'd like to cut back on. The last two don't come in at all, but we are receiving a weak signal from both that tops out at 30 percent).

Specific suggestions for an off-the-shelf antenna in the under $50 range that will help us get these stations better? Optimally, it'd be one we can buy locally and potentially return if it doesn't work out.

Thanks for any input! :)

Hey all,

I'm looking for some advice on an antenna for my new Samsung LN52a550 LCD tv.

According to antennaweb the majority of my DTV signals are ~3 mile away at 14 to 23 degrees. The one exception is the local ABC station which is 35.5 miles at 276 degrees.

One other constraint. I live in a townhouse style apartment, so an outdoor unit is not an option. Also, the path toward the majority of signals is clear, but I have a thick line of trees to the West (toward ABC).

Any siggestions for a viable option?

See this thread for good suggestions:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779

I would eliminate any amplified antennas from the list due to your close proximity. Also, the new Winegard HD-1080 is a 2 bay panel antenna that does upper VHF as well as UHF. It is small enough you may put it in a closet, but better on a mast in another bucket of cement. They can be had for about $36 plus shipping. I'm installing one this weekend to replace my 4 bay and separate high-VHF antennas as I've always wanted a small single antenna solution.

I had a question on FM antennas (if this is the right place for it). On car antennas, it is very common to see them with a twist these days. i.e. there is a spiral element in addition to the straight element. Is this an attempt at impedance matching, AM reception or something else?

If you can find the pics of the "smart antenna" you'll see the PWBs have small coils on them. The idea is to make the antenna element appear longer without actually using the space. Now, I think you're referring to the loose spiral wrapped around the length of the whip. No idea what's different from the load coils.
Frank

I thought that was the antenna for the remote key fob. I've seen it on some cars and not on other cars (same model and year).

I had a question on FM antennas (if this is the right place for it). On car antennas, it is very common to see them with a twist these days. i.e. there is a spiral element in addition to the straight element. Is this an attempt at impedance matching, AM reception or something else?

If its less than a full turn, i would say its probably for strengthening,a
full twist in a small area would be a coil adding.. effective length to the antenna. making an electrically longer antenna for a lower frequency.

and of course a longer antenna would certainly help for AM since a true
half wavelength at 1600 khz is VERY VERY long :P


John

I had a question on FM antennas (if this is the right place for it). On car antennas, it is very common to see them with a twist these days. i.e. there is a spiral element in addition to the straight element. Is this an attempt at impedance matching, AM reception or something else?
How long is the antenna? FM/AM antennas are typically 31-in rods...no coils.
Although a loading coil would improve AM reception, the rod would no
longer resonate in the FM band.

Nonetheless, overly short motorcycle antennas with large loading coils
can be designed to resonate at 27 MHz for a CB transmitter, while also
providing a somewhat compromised FM/AM reception capability....

Maybe you are looking at a CELLULAR antenna, which is only 12 to 15-in:
http://www.installer.com/antenna/ant.html
The spiral element in the middle of CL60/61 and RM01 is a "loading coil"
making the antenna electrically "look longer". The extra inductance helps to
match the cellular transmitter load, minimizing VSWR.

BTW: AM/FM antennas are sandwiched into the glass on most recent cars.
For the past decade, Volvo wagons have embedded active antennas into each
rear side window...with a diversity combiner for improved FM performance.
The "T" shape provides vertical polarization coverage towards front/rear...
and vertical/horizontal polarization coverage towards the sides.

When I read the comment about the "Twist" I was thinking about the extra wire that spirals up some car radio antenna's - not a twist in the actual antenna.

My Winegard HD-1080 2-bay UHF/high VHF antenna arrived yesterday ($36 plus shipping). This morning I removed a Winegard 4-bay UHF, a Winegard YA6713 high-VHF, a UHF/VHF diplexor and the coax associated with all that and replaced them with the HD-1080.
I live 14 miles from the towers on Mt Mansfield with LOS to them, ideal conditions for a downsized solution. The tuner is a VIP622 from E* Here are the results showing station, actual digital channel, before and after signal:

2 Antennas 1 Antenna
WCAX-53 99 92
WPTZ-14 96 88
WVNY-13 87 81
WETK-32 98 98
WFFF-43 100 100

The mass on the mast is 1/3 of what it was and the appearance is much cleaner. I'm thinking this is a keeper.

http://www.winegarddirect.com/viewitem.asp?p=HD-1080

Can someone recommend an antenna based on the pic below? I want to be able to view all the stations, but am unsure which one I need..

Thanks,
Tony
Winegard HD-1080 at $36 plus shipping should do nicely. See my review above.

Got any recommendations for a good antenna that fits this? How do I aim it at 130 degrees?

At noon, the sun should be due south at 180 degrees. Facing the sun, east is to your left at 90 degrees. 130 is about halfway in between.

> At noon, the sun should be due south at 180 degrees.

That's noon standard time, or 1 pm daylight time.
And it could be off, depending on where you are in your time zone.
I'm sure there is some way to start with lat./long. coordinates
(e.g. from a GPS, or some maps have them) and calculate what time
the sun will be directly south.

Or you could get a compass. Even then you have to deal with
magnetic north vs true north.

This is a lot easier if you can see the towers. :-)

I always use maps. I haven't used a compass in a decade. With off-air antenna pointing, absolute precision in pointing is not essential and often not even beneficial. With satellite pointing, absolute accuracy is essential, but we achieve that by peaking the antenna aim with a signal meter.

Where did you get it at that price?

I got it from Stark because they are closer and shipping was lower. If I lived on the left coast, I would have ordered from Summit Source.

I always use maps.

The street-level map that antennaweb.org produces shows the directions to the transmitters from the location that you've given it. Simply center it on your house location.

My Winegard HD-1080 2-bay UHF/high VHF antenna arrived yesterday ($36 plus shipping). This morning I removed a Winegard 4-bay UHF, a Winegard YA6713 high-VHF, a UHF/VHF diplexor and the coax associated with all that and replaced them with the HD-1080.
I live 14 miles from the towers on Mt Mansfield with LOS to them, ideal conditions for a downsized solution. The tuner is a VIP622 from E* Here are the results showing station, actual digital channel, before and after signal:

2 Antennas 1 Antenna
WCAX-53 99 92
WPTZ-14 96 88
WVNY-13 87 81
WETK-32 98 98
WFFF-43 100 100

The mass on the mast is 1/3 of what it was and the appearance is much cleaner. I'm thinking this is a keeper.



Thanks for the review, and suggestion. In my case I am starting to think indoor is not a possibility, and I don't have the mechanical skills to build a DIY antenna.

The HD-1080 might be an option for me. I've been looking for specs on the winegard website, but haven't found much info.

I did notice the satelite mouunt attachment that Winegard makes (??-1111). Do you think that type of mount would hold the HD-1080?

I had a question on FM antennas (if this is the right place for it). On car antennas, it is very common to see them with a twist these days. i.e. there is a spiral element in addition to the straight element. Is this an attempt at impedance matching, AM reception or something else?
Some antennas "sing" in the wind, this spiral wire reduces or stops it.

Steve

Thanks for the review, and suggestion. In my case I am starting to think indoor is not a possibility, and I don't have the mechanical skills to build a DIY antenna.

The HD-1080 might be an option for me. I've been looking for specs on the winegard website, but haven't found much info.

I did notice the satelite mouunt attachment that Winegard makes (??-1111). Do you think that type of mount would hold the HD-1080?
Yes, the J-mount should work fine. Or you could use a wall mount and a mast.

Or you could get a compass. Even then you have to deal with
magnetic north vs true north.


Whats nice about TVFool is, they give the heading in both magnetic and true.

Can anyone with a Winegard HD-1080 or any other DB2 style antenna give me advice as to how the antenna might perform Indoors inside a basement apartment with a window.

I haven't had much success with amplified antennas. I'm too close to a couple towers and I think those channels crush the rest when I amplify the signal (Lansing, MI. WLNS and WILX come in at 80%+, the other channels are around 60% and have dropout issues. WKAR is unwatchable). So I'm wondering if the solution is simply to get a bigger, meatier antenna like the HD-1080 or perhaps the SS-3000.

The SS-3000 is more aesthetically pleasing for an apartment dweller, but I've heard DB2's can't be beat for overall reception.

I might be able to hang this thing from the ceiling, but most likely I'd prop it on the window sill or set it on the floor in a corner (would that kill it's ability to get signal?).

Can anyone with a Winegard HD-1080 or any other DB2 style antenna give me advice as to how the antenna might perform Indoors inside a basement apartment with a window.

I haven't had much success with amplified antennas. I'm too close to a couple towers and I think those channels crush the rest when I amplify the signal (Lansing, MI. WLNS and WILX come in at 80%+, the other channels are around 60% and have dropout issues. WKAR is unwatchable). So I'm wondering if the solution is simply to get a bigger, meatier antenna like the HD-1080 or perhaps the SS-3000.

The SS-3000 is more aesthetically pleasing for an apartment dweller, but I've heard DB2's can't be beat for overall reception.

I might be able to hang this thing from the ceiling, but most likely I'd prop it on the window sill or set it on the floor in a corner (would that kill it's ability to get signal?).

The HD-1080 is almost twice the size of the DB2 even though it is still a 2 bay. However, it is classified as a medium directional and does high band VHF as well as UHF so I expect that it will out perform the DB2. And, as suggested, check antennaweb.org and tvfool.com
As for installation, it is critical that it be above ground level. You could use an old floor lamp with the light cut off as an antenna stand, an outdoor umbrella stand or a plastic bucket with cement and a mast.

Howdy - Newbie here....spent many hours over the past few days looking through this thread. Just wanted to get some feedback on a little problem that has developed. I live in the LA area, and installed a 43XG antenna on my house about 2 years ago along with the CM 7777 preamp and about 60-feet of RG-6. All of the LA stations are on one mountain about 31 miles away, all in the same direction. Things were great. All the major networks were strong, and we had a bunch of PBS stations also....maybe 20 stations total. Then, over time I believe, although I'm not sure because for awhile I thought seasons/sunspot cycles/etc. were impacting signal, reception got worse. Much worse. All of the PBS stations are gone, and the networks that were once solid (75 signal strength) now are low 60's (threshold for a picture) and often times in and out or no signal. Now I have no solid signals, and only 5 or so that are quasi-dependable, but still with drop-outs.

A bit of a novice, I didn't seal any of the coax, so I thought 2 years of corrosion was the cause. So I got new RG-6 with Snap N Seal connectors from Blue Jeans Cable. In the process of removing the old cable, I broke the built-in balun on the antenna as the connectors were corroded together. So I picked up a $2 one at Frys to replace it, installed the cable, and put Coax Seal all over the connections, including the antenna. No difference.

Then I removed both the preamp and the preamp power supply, so the coax went from the antenna to the grounding block to the receiver. The reception was just as good without the preamp as with it. There is 20 volts coming out of the power supply, so that either seems to mean that the preamp is shot, the antenna is too corroded (I am 1/2 mile from the ocean), or transmitter specs have changed.

I called Channel Master, and he said the preamp should be fine since there is signal with the preamp installed and powered, and there is zero signal (on any channel) when I unplug the power supply. Is there insufficient signal loss on a 60-ft run of RG-6 with multiple connections such that the 7777 wouldn't make a difference?

The beam is aluminum and in good shape with some light oxidation, but the "reflector", which is not aluminum, seems to have surface rust.

My TVfool chart is attached.

Any thoughts on what may be the problem? I could put in RG-11, although that would make a difference, get a 91XG, or the Research Communications preamp, but I didn't have any of that 2 years ago and things were great.

I'm using a Digital Stream HD3150plus receiver.

Many thanks,
Dave

It could be that the new balun is bad, that happens. Also check your grounding block and the wire into the house. I would think in your good area, no preamp would be needed for a 60ft run.

Greetings,

I think I have read so much in the last few days that I've gotten myself confused. :^)

I live about 25 miles south from the DC broadcast towers. The terrain around me is broken and heavily wooded. Although I get the analog signals pretty well, my digital is limited to Fox, UPN, Ion, and an independent station. TV Fool says that the signal strength between the analog and digital are pretty similar.

Here is my set up. I have an (old) large roof-mounted RS antenna (not a VU-190 XR, but similar) mounted maybe 25' in the air. The antenna is on a rotor, and I think I'm pointed pretty dead-on. There is a 10' cable run from the antenna to an Archer 15-1124 pre-amp that I bought when dinosaurs roamed the earth, then another 15' run to the power source.

After the power source is a two-way splitter. Each 'arm' of the splitter is subsequently split an unknown number of times (the cables disappear under the blown-in insulation, making ti really hard to track.) Finally, I terminate in a Zenith DTT900 converter box.

The fact that I can receive the analog but not the digital has me perplexed. The best that I can figure is that the tree leaves are blocking the UHF signal but not the VHS signal.

Here are the questions I can think to ask. If anybody has any other suggestions, I'm happy to hear them!

1) Would moving the pre-amp closer to the antenna have any significant effect?

2) What if I replace the pre-amp with a CM 7777? The Archer claims a gain of 20 - 25 db with 3 db of noise, but who knows.

3) Should I invest in a dedicated UHF antenna like the CM 4228? All of the local stations are sticking with UHF after the transition, with the exception of 7 and 9.

4) What if I replace the splitter with a distribution amp like a CM 3043 or 3044? Can I even put a distro amp after a pre-amp?

5) How about the DTT900? Is it a decent unit? What should I have bought instead?

6) Any other ideas?

Do you live near Lake Jackson, or any of the many low spots in Manassas? You will more than likely need a stronger antenna. I just replaced a RS VU-160 with a CM4228(UHF) at a friends house in Madison, Va with excellent results. The RS antennas just don't have the best UHF sensitivity. You will need a combo antenna like a Winegard HD7084P,(Channels 7 & 9 are going back to VHF in '09) or maybe seperate UHF/VHF antennas depending on your elevation. As far as a pre-amp, I always had trouble with the UHF station at Indepedent Hill(6 miles away). A CM 7777 may work, but you may get a bit of overload. Analog 66 & 56 are pretty potent there also. The Winegard HDP-269 may be a better choice. Go to TV Fool and put in your exact address under "Signal Locater". This will give you a much better idea of exactly what you can realistically expect at your location. If you go to Google maps and get the exact coordinates for your address, it is even more accurate. You should be able to get many of the stations above the gray shaded area with the right equipment. As far as converter boxes, I am using the Zenith DTT 900 here in Arlington with excellent results. It does an great job with weak signals, even when located less than 4 miles from many strong stations. It even pulls in 1 of the Richmond, Va stations quite often here. You shouldn't need a distribution amp either, unless you have more than 3-4 splits. The pre-amp should be adequate.

Thanks for the good info! Yup, I'm a couple miles from lake Jackson, on Davis Ford. I down-loaded Google Earth and the transmission maps from TV Fool, and I range from light turquoise to dark blue. I will think about what you said about over-driving the receiver. I never considered that! The reception here has never been stellar... it sounds like a problem I'd like to have! LOL

Pulling Richmond... wow... on cold nights I can sometimes get Baltimore, and I consider it a good day!

obeldobs

Yes, go with the 4228 (you may not need the pre-amp), and if you need it, get a separate high band VHF with a UHF/VHF combiner.

obeldobs

Yes, go with the 4228 (you may not need the pre-amp), and if you need it, get a separate high band VHF with a UHF/VHF combiner.The 4228 is an "excellent" deep fringe antenna. It's just think it's too big(tall) when you need to also consider VHF reception. I think a good combo Winegard antenna should work fine in Manassas as long as your signal levels are -85dBm or better.(Check TV fool with exact coordinates) If you do need to go with separates,(-100dBm or better) the 91-xg is much easier to stack with a high band VHF on the same mast. You need "at least" 3-4 feet between 2 antennas so they don't interact with each other. The 4228 is 3 feet tall, so you probably would need at least 15 feet of mast by the time you get the antenna on the bottom 5 feet off the roof.(Guy wires????) I would say try without the amp first, but it sounds like you are using more than 1 TV, so you will probably end up needing one for distributon needs.

I think I'm just going to try the 91XG, which will have a new balun in it, and see what that does. That will knock out two possibilities at once, and presumably give me more gain than what I had before.

Thanks,
Dave

Quick questions for antenna gurus: A Philips PHDTV3 Silver Sensor solved our reception issues in the living room, but now I need to put in a splitter and run some coax into the bedroom. The splitter is already on and the signal doesn't seem to have been hurt. For my purposes, I notice most store bought coax comes in 25 or 50-foot sizes.

So, my questions are:

a) How much signal loss would I expect with 25-foot vs 50-foot?

b) Am I going to need some sort of amplifier?

c) WTF is Quad-Shield? Is that better or just smoke n mirrors?

Antennas Direct’s Clearstream2 Antenna Available for Pre-Order

St. Louis-based antennas maker Antennas Direct announced its new, ultra-efficient, compact, digital TV antenna, ClearStream2, will arrive June 30. Orders are being taken now.

ClearStream2 is Antennas Direct’s latest model of digital TV antennas, which are optimized specifically for the 2009 digital conversion.

“The ClearStream2, which is the first in a series of ClearStream DTV antennas, is unmatched in size and performance,” said Antennas Direct President Richard Schneider. “Demand for ClearStream2 is high because of its strength, reliability and small form.”

The first DTV antenna created with the latest simulation software and test equipment, the ClearStream2 is designed to receive digital, over-the-air broadcasts, with a range up to 50 miles. Its wide, 70-degree beam width allows it to capture signal from towers spaced far apart, and its patented, tapered-loop design is 50 percent smaller than previous models.

continued...

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/495599.html

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/495600.jpg.

.


Goodness thats one UGLY antenna. :P

On a serious note I sure would like to see the innards of those loops.
I bet they are similar to Winegards SS 2000 with its fractal elements.

Just thinking out loud.

John

Newbie to antennas. I just built a Single Bay Hoverman Antenna, and the results are great. Anyone else have excellent success with one? Im curious how it compares to the commercial antennas. Im also curious if its worth building a Double Bay. Will a Double Bay get channels further away or just improve the signal?

Newbie to antennas. I just built a Single Bay Hoverman Antenna, and the results are great. Anyone else have excellent success with one? Im curious how it compares to the commercial antennas. Im also curious if its worth building a Double Bay. Will a Double Bay get channels further away or just improve the signal?

Yep, I built a DBGH, the results are great. To get an idea of its performance relative to other antennas, look in the official Gray Hoverman thread for charts (read about 13 pages back): http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=759210#post759210

And then look at Ken Nists charts, "Comparing some commercially available antennas" : http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=759210#post759210
and then compare the data. Keep in mind after February, all channels over 52 disappear.
As far as a DBGH for you, it depends on your location if you need it or not. Check TVFool.com.


And a picture of mine :

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8994/dscn0266486x648en7.jpg

Quick questions for antenna gurus: A Philips PHDTV3 Silver Sensor solved our reception issues in the living room, but now I need to put in a splitter and run some coax into the bedroom. The splitter is already on and the signal doesn't seem to have been hurt. For my purposes, I notice most store bought coax comes in 25 or 50-foot sizes.

So, my questions are:

a) How much signal loss would I expect with 25-foot vs 50-foot?

b) Am I going to need some sort of amplifier?

c) WTF is Quad-Shield? Is that better or just smoke n mirrors?

a) about 1db every 18 feet. Keep in mind, youre losing about 3 db with that splitter. (3db is cutting your signal in half)

b) Maybe, with that splitter, youre losing 4.5 db total. Maybe you should consider 2 separate Silver Sensors instead.

c) RG6 is shielded with a layer of foil and braid. Quad shield is foil, braid, foil and braid again. Its overkill unless youre in a very electrically noisy environment. Buy good quality plain RG6. Dont buy the older RG59.

Goodness thats one UGLY antenna. :P

On a serious note I sure would like to see the innards of those loops.
I bet they are similar to Winegards SS 2000 with its fractal elements.

Just thinking out loud.

John


Heh, it was probably designed for motorhomes whose owners are big NASCAR fans of car #8 (or buy 2 for#88). :p

I bet its just stacked uhf loops with a preamplifier. Up to 50 miles ? Yeah sure, during a good troposphere event. :p

.

“Demand for ClearStream2 is high because of its strength, reliability and small form.”


How does an new model of antenna that is only in the pre-order stage already have a reputation for reliability?

Well, maybe it doesnt even have an amplifier in it. Two small steel hoops and a piece of fencing and a metal pole IS pretty strong, reliable and small :p:p.


They could also claim its non-allergeric. :p

On a serious note I sure would like to see the innards of those loops.
I bet they are similar to Winegards SS 2000 with its fractal elements.


I bet it's not; I bet what you see is what you get. It's similar to a biquad design (common at 2.4Ghz) but with round loops instead of squares. A biquad has pretty narrow bandwidth, maybe the fancy tapered loops increase it... or maybe they don't and their "patent" is a design patent.

I thought I was so smart. Bought a CM 4228 over a year ago at Fry's when they had a sale (great price, it has practically doubled now), figuring all post 2/09 freqs would be UHF. For the interim I joined it with two short lengths of RG6 to a UHF/VHF medium-rating Radio Shack antenna and folded down the UHF Yagi-part of it, to get adequate VHF analog. It works ok, but there's a little ghosting and reflections on some lower channels. There probably would be some anyway as there are trees and structures in the signal path.

Now, I see with the new assignments posted by Falcon that 4 LA area stations will be in the 7-13 band. I am wondering if I can tweak my CM 4228 to perform a little better in the 7-13 range using the two baluns and RG6 fix that has been posted here. Are there any other, better modifications that could easily be made on a CM 4228?

We spend some time in a small 1-story condo in Holtsville when we visit family on Long Island ... not enough time to make subscribing to cable or satellite cost effective. Any advice on indoor or outdoor antenna that will work with a HDTV converter?

I thought I was so smart. Bought a CM 4228 over a year ago at Fry's when they had a sale (great price, it has practically doubled now), figuring all post 2/09 freqs would be UHF. For the interim I joined it with two short lengths of RG6 to a UHF/VHF medium-rating Radio Shack antenna and folded down the UHF Yagi-part of it, to get adequate VHF analog. It works ok, but there's a little ghosting and reflections on some lower channels. There probably would be some anyway as there are trees and structures in the signal path.

Now, I see with the new assignments posted by Falcon that 4 LA area stations will be in the 7-13 band. I am wondering if I can tweak my CM 4228 to perform a little better in the 7-13 range using the two baluns and RG6 fix that has been posted here. Are there any other, better modifications that could easily be made on a CM 4228?

What vhf-hi stations will you have ? Check here to see the performance of the 4228 on vhf-hi (middle of page) : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

We spend some time in a small 1-story condo in Holtsville when we visit family on Long Island ... not enough time to make subscribing to cable or satellite cost effective. Any advice on indoor or outdoor antenna that will work with a HDTV converter?

Any antenna that works with HDTV will work with the converters. What's more important is getting an antenna that works where it is used. Go to antennaweb.org and tvfool.com, input the address of the condo, look at the results for Digital, then give us the results so we can help.

What vhf-hi stations will you have ? Check here to see the performance of the 4228 on vhf-hi (middle of page) : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

LA area will have same upper VHF in DTV as with analog at present: 7, 9, 11, 13. I see a significant drop off below ch 9 on the chart for 4228, was wondering if I performed the coax & balun crossover + wire the two halves of the reflector together, if that would tweak the VHF performance a bit. i.e. would it be worth the trouble? I've read some of the earlier 4228 tweaking posts and the verdict seems somewhat positive but perhaps optimistically so. i.e. I'm not sure how much is wishful thinking. I would need ch 7 as it is the ABC owned and operated station here.

Now, I see with the new assignments posted by Falcon that 4 LA area stations will be in the 7-13 band. I am wondering if I can tweak my CM 4228 to perform a little better in the 7-13 range using the two baluns and RG6 fix that has been posted here. Are there any other, better modifications that could easily be made on a CM 4228?
With the screens joined together with wire I'm able to clearly receive analog channel 8 from 70 miles.

YMMV.

In my area there will be channel 12 digital, as of now analog 12 from the same distance isn't always watchable, so it will be interesting to see what happens in 2/09.

Channel Master 4221 or Winegard 4400?

29438

All my channels are North-East at 55 +/-1 degrees and 45 miles out. Flatland, and a large portion of ocean between me and the towers, rest is marsh and forest.

I also have a 2nd PBS UHF channel WJWJ broadcasting at 23 miles and 294 degrees(not quite in the opposite direction, flatland, over forest. This is pretty easy to get, Im picking it up with a DB2 plus CM7777 on the roof right now facing the North-East Tower cluster at 45 miles.

My primary PBS channel among the towers, WITV, at 45 miles NE, will be switching to VHF Ch. 7 come Feb09.

What say you?


edit: Im having the most trouble with Channel 4 WCIV (at real channel 34) and 36 WMMP (at real channel 35). Everything else is pretty stable with the DB2, at least to the point that either the CM4221 or Winegard 4400 will be fine for them.

LA area will have same upper VHF in DTV as with analog at present: 7, 9, 11, 13.

You have them very nicely spread there. :D I dont think any amount of tweaking is going to get you all of them. If you tweak for one, the others will suffer. Your best bet is to get a VHF-HI only antenna and couple it to the CM4228. I think Winegard sells a VHF-Hi only antenna, and they arent the monster size that all-channel antennas are.

You have them very nicely spread there. :D I dont think any amount of tweaking is going to get you all of them. If you tweak for one, the others will suffer. Your best bet is to get a VHF-HI only antenna and couple it to the CM4228. I think Winegard sells a VHF-Hi only antenna, and they arent the monster size that all-channel antennas are.

OK this is interesting to me. What's involved? Right now I'm doing it with my old RS UHF/VHF with front end yagi. I closed down the yagi elements and ran the two into a combiner (which looks much like a splitter to me) then a single RG6 down to my attic where the signal is boosted and divided to different rooms. My reception is not perfect but it's pretty good. My UHF is generally pretty strong though I've had an issue with KCET 59 signal strength. Some tweaking today seemed to help. I'll do some experimenting without my old VHF RS antenna paired to the CM4228 and see how 7 & 9 VHF look with it, first.

Also one of the posts said VHF is helped somewhat by binding the two screens on the 4228 (mine has two, not one). Somehow I had the sense to do this with insulated #22 wire back when I installed the antenna, before anyone suggested it. But should these halves be bound with bare copper wire or simply nylon straps? Wouldn't it be better to assure contact with bare wires? I only bound at the top and bottom, am now guessing that several attachments would be better.

Also one of the posts said VHF is helped somewhat by binding the two screens on the 4228 (mine has two, not one). Somehow I had the sense to do this with insulated #22 wire back when I installed the antenna, before anyone suggested it. But should these halves be bound with bare copper wire or simply nylon straps? Wouldn't it be better to assure contact with bare wires? I only bound at the top and bottom, am now guessing that several attachments would be better.

The 4228 will work best on VHF-hi with the screens bound together. If the screens are seperate they are not large enough to work as a reflector on all VHF-HI channels.

Bind the 2 reflectors together as best you can so that you can be sure that they are acting as 1.

Even with this mod the 4228 is only a limited VHF-hi antenna on most VHF-HI channels at best.

Goodness thats one UGLY antenna. :P

On a serious note I sure would like to see the innards of those loops.
I bet they are similar to Winegards SS 2000 with its fractal elements.

Just thinking out loud.

John
Ugly?? That's new age digital beauty, my friend!;)

Why don't you buy one, have it X-Rayed, and post the pics here?

Your best bet is to get a VHF-HI only antenna and couple it to the CM4228. I think Winegard sells a VHF-Hi only antenna, and they arent the monster size that all-channel antennas are.
I believe you're probably referring to their high VHF yagi, the YA1713. Strictly for high VHF (7-13) gain it's one of the best out there, and only about $40. And having four high VHF stations (7, 9, 11, 13), I wouldn't skimp and hope the CM4228 could pull in a marginal picture. If there was one station that was not often watched, maybe. But if these are where four channels are, I'd want to make sure that was well-covered. For fringe reception to this market, a combination of a YA-1713 and something like a 91XG or CM4228 would likely be the better option than an all-in-one monster VHF/UHF antenna.

Yesterday, a Winegard 7084P antenna with a Winegard 8780 pre-amplifier was installed on the roof (attached to the chimney). :) The antenna is approx 30 feet from the ground. It is attached to a rotor.

RG-6 coax is run along the outside of the house and then into the basement. The coax run is approx 40 feet where the feed is split into a four-way splitter. The longest indoor coax run is also about 40 feet from the basement to the top floor. (We cut the cable company's internal distribution system and utilized it for the antenna feed). The splitter only feeds 3 televisions. I also plan to split the signal again at two of the televisions to feed FM receivers.

The signal strength is much improved. Reception includes almost all of the stations identified from TV Fool for my location just west of Reading, PA. However, several stations from the Philly market have intermittent reception. Several other stations from that same area are at 100% signal strength (any time of day) according to the Channelmaster 7000 D2A converter box. In addition, channels from Scranton, PA are coming in at between 30 and 50% signal strength.

Should I add a distribution amplifier? Thanks for your advice. Please let me know if you need more info or need me to be more specific.

I believe you're probably referring to their high VHF yagi, the YA1713. Strictly for high VHF (7-13) gain it's one of the best out there, and only about $40. And having four high VHF stations (7, 9, 11, 13), I wouldn't skimp and hope the CM4228 could pull in a marginal picture. If there was one station that was not often watched, maybe. But if these are where four channels are, I'd want to make sure that was well-covered. For fringe reception to this market, a combination of a YA-1713 and something like a 91XG or CM4228 would likely be the better option than an all-in-one monster VHF/UHF antenna.

Well I have the 4228 now, would like to not overspend. Maybe in the future and also in a couple years' time there will be lots of upper VHF /UHF low/mid band antennas i.e. some new incarnations, might make sense to wait til then. Meanwhile one reason not to replace 4228 with a 91XG is that my transmitters are situated a few degrees from one another and Ch 50 (OC PBS - an important one) is in the same general direction too, but not exactly the same. Therefore a slightly less directional antenna like 4228 (15° spread) might be more forgiving than the more directional but superior 91XG. If I need an add-on, it would only be for 7 and 9. Looking at the ChannelMaster site, I see a new model (#2016) specifically for ch 7-51 and it's a medium sized Yagi with a VHF dipole sticking out from the rear! I guess I need to figure a way to combine a simple dipole tuned to ch 7 & 9 and link it to the CM 4228 without adding any unwanted reflections or artifacts i.e. competing signals.

Any special tricks to combining two antennas with different ranges? Use a combiner-splitter and coax with baluns? Any special attention paid to cable lengths? I am in N. Orange County, S of L.A., in Brea-E.Fullerton area.

Tommy,
Before adding a dist amp, you have a few loose ends to attend to. The first is the unterminated feed out of the 4-way splitter. This causes reflections within your line, your own multi-path signal source, and that's how a 100% signal may not come in.

Next, see if all those splits is the problem. Each pair costs 3-4dB, and the quad is 6-8dB. Run a single, unsplit line to your closest TV and see if reception issues go away. If so, a distribution amp at the quad splitter location should take care of you.

But first, terminate those open lines!

Frank

Frank, I'm off to the Radio Shack. Their website says that they have RF terminators. Hope that they have them in the store.

Use a PICO USVJ-VHF/UHF combiner. They are excellent!!
Low loss(.05 db), filters out all out of band signals, and "very" cheap.($5.00 or less plus shipping on the internet). Differing cable lenghts won't be an issue. They are very versatile too. I use one to filter out strong VHF and FM from my system.

Frank, I'm off to the Radio Shack. Their website says that they have RF terminators. Hope that they have them in the store.
You may want to call first. I had to go to 4 stores before finding them here. Most of the employees didn't even know what they are. An item # is very helpful with this one!!

Well I have the 4228 now, would like to not overspend. Maybe in the future and also in a couple years' time there will be lots of upper VHF /UHF low/mid band antennas i.e. some new incarnations, might make sense to wait til then. Meanwhile one reason not to replace 4228 with 91XG is that my transmitters are situated a few degrees from one another and Ch 50 (OC PBS - an important one) is in the same general direction too. Therefore a slightly less directional antenna like 4228 (15° spread) might be more forgiving than the highly directional but superior 91XG. If I need an add-on, it would only be for 7 and 9. Looking at the ChannelMaster site, I see a new model (#2016) specifically for ch 7-51 and it's a medium sized Yagi with a dipole sticking out from the rear! I guess I need to figure a way to combine a simple dipole tuned to ch 7 & 9 and link it to the CM 4228 without adding any unwanted reflections or artifacts i.e. competing signals.

Any special tricks to combining two antennas with different ranges? Use a combiner-splitter and coax with baluns? Any special attention paid to cable lengths?
It would help if you posted TVFool results...or provide your location.

If you are using a garden variety RF Splitter/Combiner, it has 3.5+ (++) dB insertion loss.

You should be using a UHF/VHF Combiner such as UVSJ, which has 0.5 dB loss:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ
Each antenna connects to UVSJ via individual baluns. UVSJ output is coax to HDTV.

Well, just put up the Funke 1922. Did that make a huge difference.

Some photos of the DX'ing Rig.

Thanks,

The reslts from tvfool show the future dgital station signals mostly green and in the right direction (west) for my unit, while the current analog signals are red and also in the west. It seems that an indoor antenna would be ok next year, but not this year.

antennaweb shows most analog stations in blue. there are only six digital stations, 2 yellow, 1 grren, 1 blue, 2 violet.

Not sure if that's what you need --- i saved all the results, so let me know what else.
Any antenna that works with HDTV will work with the converters. What's more important is getting an antenna that works where it is used. Go to antennaweb.org and tvfool.com, input the address of the condo, look at the results for Digital, then give us the results so we can help.

My location is North Orange County, S of L.A. County, in the Brea-E Fullerton area.

50 foot Rohn tower with a 10' mask. So, I would say the top is 55' tall.

Chad


Nice set up. How high are the antennas?

Well, just put up the Funke 1922. Did that make a huge difference.

Some photos of the DX'ing Rig.

Nice! Thanks for the two referrals,they both bought.
The big tower is finished with the UHF ants on it.Can't seem to upload a pic here,but test area thinks it's small enough.Link...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1041228

Greg,

Glad to see you have the system in the air. Looks good. :D

Had my fat installer put up your antenna yesterday. He may call you to buy five of these. :):)

Swapped out the Winegard amp and put up a new CM7777. Could not tell any difference at all.

Chad

Nice! Thanks for the two referrals,they both bought.
The big tower is finished with the UHF ants on it.Can't seem to upload a pic here,but test area thinks it's small enough.Link...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1041228

Also one of the posts said VHF is helped somewhat by binding the two screens on the 4228 (mine has two, not one). Somehow I had the sense to do this with insulated #22 wire back when I installed the antenna, before anyone suggested it. But should these halves be bound with bare copper wire or simply nylon straps? Wouldn't it be better to assure contact with bare wires? I only bound at the top and bottom, am now guessing that several attachments would be better.

Yes, bare copper wire, not insulated. The idea is to make the sections one big reflector electrically.

If you notice here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
channel 7 on the CM4228 may not be so good for you. Combining the YA1713 with it seems to be the best option.
I guess I need to figure a way to combine a simple dipole tuned to ch 7 & 9 and link it to the CM 4228 without adding any unwanted reflections or artifacts i.e. competing signals.

The best thing for experimenting like that is to take apart an old set of rabbit ears, drill out the holes to fit the feed attachments on the uhf antenna, and experiment with various lengths and positions.

holl_ands:
You should be using a UHF/VHF Combiner such as UVSJ, which has 0.5 dB loss:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ
Each antenna connects to UVSJ via individual baluns. UVSJ output is coax to HDTV.

Any recommendations for separate vhf and uhf 300 ohm antennas to 75 ohm coax ?

I posted 300-ohm to 75-ohm transformer (aka Balun) loss info here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13581150

Although some indoor Baluns performed somewhat better, for outdoor use,
the Channel Master that comes with CM4228 was better than the others I tested:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM3075
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm

Yesterday, a Winegard 7084P antenna with a Winegard 8780 pre-amplifier was installed on the roof (attached to the chimney). :) The antenna is approx 30 feet from the ground. It is attached to a rotor.

RG-6 coax is run along the outside of the house and then into the basement. The coax run is approx 40 feet where the feed is split into a four-way splitter. The longest indoor coax run is also about 40 feet from the basement to the top floor. (We cut the cable company's internal distribution system and utilized it for the antenna feed). The splitter only feeds 3 televisions. I also plan to split the signal again at two of the televisions to feed FM receivers.

The signal strength is much improved. Reception includes almost all of the stations identified from TV Fool for my location just west of Reading, PA. However, several stations from the Philly market have intermittent reception. Several other stations from that same area are at 100% signal strength (any time of day) according to the Channelmaster 7000 D2A converter box. In addition, channels from Scranton, PA are coming in at between 30 and 50% signal strength.

Should I add a distribution amplifier? Thanks for your advice. Please let me know if you need more info or need me to be more specific.

I have some thoughts about this, as I've experimented a lot even though I have some of my own issues I've posted here. I would not waste this precious signal on two FM receivers. Each time you split, you diminish. This is way too much antenna for an FM set but it probably means putting up a separate omni-directional or directional (depending on your station locations) on the roof and running a sep. cable down so that you can distribute to those, if you must have all the FM stations. For any FM set that is high, maybe you can just use a simple indoor dipole. Alternatively, you can boost the signal and maybe this would be advisable. Investigate the boosters and decide which is best - antenna located or inside, guess both have some advantages. My booster has a variable gain control and I do recommend this since an over boosted signal can be noisy. I had splitters for my VCRs because I didn't want to fool with the TV/VCR switches on the units. But this weakened the signals to all the sets so there really is a price to be paid for that. I am gradually doing away with VCR splitters and trying to keep the signals going to TVs and converters only. i was able to visibly reduce noise by removing just one splitter, in one problem area.

Use a PICO USVJ-VHF/UHF combiner. They are excellent!!
Low loss(.05 db), filters out all out of band signals, and "very" cheap.($5.00 or less plus shipping on the internet). Differing cable lenghts won't be an issue. They are very versatile too. I use one to filter out strong VHF and FM from my system.

OK I googled it and came up with this post. This is good info, where can I get them? Ok just found it (UVS) at SolidSignal. Will order one (it may in fact be what I've got up there now, so I'll have to look first. Also like the idea of having a couple extra CM baluns on hand. Also someone mentioned that a sep UHF/VHF antenna combined to the 4228 should have its UHF elements separated from the rest of the antenna. Guess I could saw it off. All this is temporary anyway, as I'll probably end up buying either a channel specific ant or the new Winegard 7-13 antenna for 40 bucks.

OK I googled it and came up with this post. This is good info, where can I get them? Ok just found it (UVS) at SolidSignal. Will order one (it may in fact be what I've got up there now, so I'll have to look first. Also like the idea of having a couple extra CM baluns on hand. Also someone mentioned that a sep UHF/VHF antenna combined to the 4228 should have its UHF elements separated from the rest of the antenna. Guess I could saw it off. All this is temporary anyway, as I'll probably end up buying either a channel specific ant or the new Winegard 7-13 antenna for 40 bucks.WOOPS!! I meant "UVSJ", not "USVJ".

Glen

I posted 300-ohm to 75-ohm transformer (aka Balun) loss info here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13581150

Although some indoor Baluns performed somewhat better, for outdoor use,
the Channel Master that comes with CM4228 was better than the others I tested:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM3075
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm

I have a channel master 4221 and decided Not to use the Balun that comes with it. It is the same Balun you mentioned.
The reason I'm using a different Balun is because the Balun that comes with the CM 4221 has long leads. Don't these leads act like "twin lead" antenna wire?
I have terrible multipath problems at my location in my attic, so I'm thinking the indoor Balun with short leads from our local cable co. would perform better.
Am I correct, or would you recommend I use the Balun supplied with my CM 4221?

Edit
After looking at your excel file: "Balun Loss Using TWC-SD Freqs RevC.xls"
I decided to use my RMS branded Balun (model # CA-2600F). It is a very fat one compared to most others, and has real short leads.
I also have a Sega Balun, which came with my Sega Master System, or Genesis.

I posted 300-ohm to 75-ohm transformer (aka Balun) loss info here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13581150

Although some indoor Baluns performed somewhat better, for outdoor use,
the Channel Master that comes with CM4228 was better than the others I tested:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM3075
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm

Yeah, I had already seen that. I was wondering about a uhf/vhf 300 ohm input combiner with an integrated balun 75 ohm output. Is no such animal being sold now ?

I have an old Gemini uhf/vhf splitter that has 300 ohm outputs and 75 ohm in, that I was thinking to use in reverse after weatherizing it. I took it apart to see 2 small disc capacitors and the coils were etched into the pc board in a greek key type pattern, and a transformer to the 75 ohm in. (it also had 2 small resistors in it, but they were going to the 300 ohm FM output, which I wont use)
What do you think about its use ?

Tommy,
Before adding a dist amp, you have a few loose ends to attend to. The first is the unterminated feed out of the 4-way splitter. This causes reflections within your line, your own multi-path signal source, and that's how a 100% signal may not come in.

Next, see if all those splits is the problem. Each pair costs 3-4dB, and the quad is 6-8dB. Run a single, unsplit line to your closest TV and see if reception issues go away. If so, a distribution amp at the quad splitter location should take care of you.

But first, terminate those open lines!

Frank

I have some thoughts about this, as I've experimented a lot even though I have some of my own issues I've posted here. I would not waste this precious signal on two FM receivers. Each time you split, you diminish. This is way too much antenna for an FM set but it probably means putting up a separate omni-directional or directional (depending on your station locations) on the roof and running a sep. cable down so that you can distribute to those, if you must have all the FM stations. For any FM set that is high, maybe you can just use a simple indoor dipole. Alternatively, you can boost the signal and maybe this would be advisable. Investigate the boosters and decide which is best - antenna located or inside, guess both have some advantages. My booster has a variable gain control and I do recommend this since an over boosted signal can be noisy. I had splitters for my VCRs because I didn't want to fool with the TV/VCR switches on the units. But this weakened the signals to all the sets so there really is a price to be paid for that. I am gradually doing away with VCR splitters and trying to keep the signals going to TVs and converters only. i was able to visibly reduce noise by removing just one splitter, in one problem area.

To split the signal to the fm receivers use a winegard ca8800 tv/fm splitter instead of a standard splitter off the combo antenna. Insertion loss is only .4 db.

Put an RF terminator on the unused splitter port. And, connected 3rd feed to an analog TV. These two step made it possible to watch Philly 29 during the afternoon, which was not possible before. Terminated those open lines! I also connected one D2A converter box to the main feed and did not see any appreciable difference in signal strength compared to 4-way splitter reception.

Sniffed reception from Ch 27 in Harrisburg. A good sign for post transition. I want to be able to get the CBS affiliate for greater NFL variety.

Called the installer, requested changing out the 4-way splitter for a 3-way. The 3-way splitter was my original request. Going to have to wait a few days for that change. Going to pick up a couple of Db's there.

Did not split the signal for FM, yet. I can live with a little indoor antenna that picks up the local FM stations. (Does hurt a little not to be able to use the outdoor antenna, but I'll live.)

The Winegard CA8800 splitter looks like it costs nearly as much as a 3-way distribution amp. Is that the preferred course of action, because a distribution amp may generate too much signal from some stations?

What does it mean when the signal strength rapidly cycles from 0 to 50%? Is that caused by multi-path?

How do I get 5.1 Audio from an antenna if I do not have an Tuner build into my A/V Receiver? I have a Pioneer VSX92THX. I wanted to get an antenna to check out my local OTA HD. But I'm not sure on how to go about getting that OTA 5.1 audio. My tv has only stereo outputs.

Thanks.

Yeah, I had already seen that. I was wondering about a uhf/vhf 300 ohm input combiner with an integrated balun 75 ohm output. Is no such animal being sold now ?

I have an old Gemini uhf/vhf splitter that has 300 ohm outputs and 75 ohm in, that I was thinking to use in reverse after weatherizing it. I took it apart to see 2 small disc capacitors and the coils were etched into the pc board in a greek key type pattern, and a transformer to the 75 ohm in. (it also had 2 small resistors in it, but they were going to the 300 ohm FM output, which I wont use)
What do you think about its use ?
Some combiners with 300-ohm input and 75-ohm output were listed here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13942351

However, since they don't list any specs, insertion loss is unknown.

Using OLD (or unknown) RF components is a crap shoot....they are likely to have
an insertion loss at HIGHER end of range of posted measurements.....or worse....
For example old style RF combiners had 6 dB vice nominal 3.5 dB insertion loss....

The LOWEST LOSS is to use the UVSJ with individual Baluns.

Winegard 4400 vs Channel Master 4221

Which has the better build quality? Which one is tougher, stronger, can take more abuse? Which one will last longer?

Use a pair of 300-ohm to 75-ohm Balun Transformers...one for VHF and one for UHF.
A pair of coax runs connect to UVSJ low-loss VHF/UHF Combiner and then coax downlead:
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ
http://www.summitsource.com/uhfvhf-band-separator-combiner-coupler-antenna-signal-tv-video-multi-source-component-distribution-device-splitter-rfi-shielded-51000-mhz-part-jvi-25uvsj-p-6976.html

Be sure to use waterproof sealer on all connections.

Alternatively, if you don't have any "nearby" towers, use a Preamp with separate
UHF and VHF inputs instead. Choice of preamp depends on distance to towers...

====================================
PS: Solution for jcs444 (post #7322) was for ATTIC use, presuming coax or twin-lead output.


Looks like the CM preamps with the 300 ohm input and 75 ohm outputs are the only way to go for me.

How do I get 5.1 Audio from an antenna if I do not have an Tuner build into my A/V Receiver? I have a Pioneer VSX92THX. I wanted to get an antenna to check out my local OTA HD. But I'm not sure on how to go about getting that OTA 5.1 audio. My tv has only stereo outputs.

Thanks.
What TV/Tuner do you have??? You may have to just use PLII mode if the TV/Tuner does not have an optical out...This is another plus of using a seperate tuner...which is still an option...;)

I wonder how this one stacks up to the Winegard 4400 and the CM 4221....

Antennacraft U-4000

http://www.summitsource.com/images/products/AN4000.jpg

My tower cluster is tight together at 45 miles 55 degrees NE, but that markets PBS station is moving to VHF Hi next year. However I have another PBS station broadcasting at 23 miles at 294 degrees which will stay on UHF. So Im trying to catch it on the backside(its the only other station I pick up reliably besides those in the cluster). I was leaning to the Winegard 4400, but this one looks like it may give me some backside seepage as well.

I currently have a DB2 hooked up on the roof with a Channel Master 7777 amp and 50ft of Quad Sheild RG6 to the Vizio GV42LF, and its performing admirably, definately pretty satisfactory, but Id like to lock everything in just a bit better. Picks up my backside PBS station as good as everything from Charleston....which means Id like to boost it just a bit more.

Hmmmm....

but this one looks like it may give me some backside seepage as well.


I believe it will too.
Of course some people dont want the backside seepage due to reflections from the back causing multipath.

Binging a 4228 reflector. "Yes, bare copper wire, not insulated. The idea is to make the sections one big reflector electrically.
Would 1/32" stainless TIG rod work the same electrically? It's bare, would be stronger, and last longer, and I have a few.
Thanks,
Steve

Previous post question should have read "Binding" a 4228 reflector together

Winegard 4400 vs Channel Master 4221

Which has the better build quality? Which one is tougher, stronger, can take more abuse? Which one will last longer?

The 4400 is very light weight and is good in windy, snowy places, but the 4221 is probably stronger. I think the Antennas Direct DB4 is by far the best build quality though. I have one I only use to show folks the reception they can get because it travels well.
Just looked at a 4221 that my brother has and the build is very close to the DB4, so it is stronger than the 4400. However, if you are just going to put it up and leave it, it shouldn't make much difference. The 4400 has a little more gain over the DB4 and beats the 4221 below channel 28 for gain.

What TV/Tuner do you have??? You may have to just use PLII mode if the TV/Tuner does not have an optical out...This is another plus of using a seperate tuner...which is still an option...;)

All I have is the built in ATSC/QAM Tuner in my Samsung LN-T4665F LCD. It has an optical out, but it only outputs 2 channel stereo. Not really sure what the wisdom is behind that.

Looks like you may be stuck with PLII then...ALOT better than just PL...Though this spec makes it sound like the optical will output 5.1 it will only do 2.0:

Digital Audio: The optical digital output on the rear panel will output Dolby Digital (when available) or 2 channel PCM.

AVRs don't have 'tuners' in them for audio only off OTA or QAM...The only other option is a seperate tuner that outputs 5.1 via either analog...coaxial..or optical...This is what I do...

What about the tuners that the Government is giving out coupons for? Do those have optical/coaxial outs?

No, The gov't program guidelines stipulate "no" digital audio outputs. I'm surprised they even allowed S-Video.

I think Im gonna get a Channel Master 4220 and a Winegard 4400, and try them out on the roof. The xg91 really didnt cut the mustard for me, I like the DB2 better at that location.

What about the tuners that the Government is giving out coupons for? Do those have optical/coaxial outs?

eBay...search ATSC Tuner...

Thanks.

Binging a 4228 reflector. "Yes, bare copper wire, not insulated. The idea is to make the sections one big reflector electrically.
Would 1/32" stainless TIG rod work the same electrically? It's bare, would be stronger, and last longer, and I have a few.
Thanks,
Steve
Heh, last longer than copper ? 4000 year old copper artifacts have been found that are in pretty excellent shape. :p Copper conducts electric better than stainless steel, but if you want to use stainless steel, its more than good enough for connecting the reflector, just make a solid connection. On the galvanic corrosion scale, the zinc plating on the mesh would the first to go, but that may take decades on a home antenna, but maybe one season on a boat.

I am looking to add a OTA antenna tp my Directv setup, and I need some help about how best to set it up.

My configuration now:

Two lines coming from dual lnb to a 3x4 multiswitch.

Three lines from multiswitch--2 to a DVR one to 2nd receiver.


I want to try to minimize the amount of new cable I need to install. I ;ive in an apartment, and can't drill any additional holes in the wall, and I already have one going in the door with flat cable.

Is a diplexer the best option? and should it go after the multiswitch?

Thanks for the help!!

No, The gov't program guidelines stipulate "no" digital audio outputs. I'm surprised they even allowed S-Video.


Yep, the FCC worked us, the consumers, over by specifying specific features only, no exceptions. If they had specified minimal features required instead, we probably would have had features like 5.1 digital audio, hdmi output etc for little to no additional cost. :mad::mad: A lot of the chips in the converter boxes were designed with extra features in mind.

I think Im gonna get a Channel Master 4220 and a Winegard 4400, and try them out on the roof. The xg91 really didnt cut the mustard for me, I like the DB2 better at that location.


IIRC, youre in the middle of a pseudo-jungle. In that case, the bow-tie and hoverman design antennas are better for you. They have a larger "catch area" which IMO would increase your chances of getting the signal over the yagi and corner reflector yagi design models. :)

Ive come to that same conclusion, as Ive gathered more knowledge, over the past couple of weeks.

:)

The xg91 was more usable during the winter when I first put it up, the spring and summer leaves however, have changed the equation.

All I have is the built in ATSC/QAM Tuner in my Samsung LN-T4665F LCD. It has an optical out, but it only outputs 2 channel stereo. Not really sure what the wisdom is behind that.
Have you tried running the optical into your receiver to see if you get 5.1?
There's no reason for an optical out if it doesn't carry the 5.1.

Have you tried running the optical into your receiver to see if you get 5.1?
There's no reason for an optical out if it doesn't carry the 5.1.

Yep, and make sure the receiver is set for 5.1. Also, the station has to be transmitting 5.1.

All I have is the built in ATSC/QAM Tuner in my Samsung LN-T4665F LCD. It has an optical out, but it only outputs 2 channel stereo. Not really sure what the wisdom is behind that.

The two above posts are right on. Not all digital programming is 5.1. I have optical output on my TV that I run into a receiver and get 5.1 when the show is broadcast with 5.1.

I'm sure that somewhere in this thread is coaxial cable recommendations, but I'm not skilled on how to find them.

I need a recommendation on a good quality "outdoor rated" quad-shield RG-6 coax cable.
The brand and where to purchase it. I will need probably 250 ft. or so for the antenna's downlead and one other outdoor run up to a second floor. I like the type that lasts outdoors for years...

I have some right now, but it only has an aluminum foil shield under an aluminum outer "braid" if you could even call it a braid... It has "Belden" on it's coating, but I've used RG-6 with way better braiding that that...it's just a few strands looks like aluminum hair.

Any recommendation of brand, type and where to purchase would be appreciated.
I used to know all the best coax places back when I was a Ham, but I've forgotten them all.

I'm sure that somewhere in this thread is coaxial cable recommendations, but I'm not skilled on how to find them.

I need a recommendation on a good quality "outdoor rated" quad-shield RG-6 coax cable.
The brand and where to purchase it. I will need probably 250 ft. or so for the antenna's downlead and one other outdoor run up to a second floor. I like the type that lasts outdoors for years...

I have some right now, but it only has an aluminum foil shield under an aluminum outer "braid" if you could even call it a braid... It has "Belden" on it's coating, but I've used RG-6 with way better braiding that that...it's just a few strands looks like aluminum hair.

Any recommendation of brand, type and where to purchase would be appreciated.
I used to know all the best coax places back when I was a Ham, but I've forgotten them all. There is a Belden Tri-Shield cable that I have seen highly recommended, especially if you have concerns with signal ingress. It is claimed to be a better option to quad shield. "Belden 7915A"
https://www.tselectronic.com/belden/7915a.html?tse_Session=a7a3d244dba6946ea4fb26bdd08ac2c3
I have only seen it available in 500 foot increments. I will probably buy some when I add a 2nd antenna to my system, but the Carol Cable I am using from Home Depot is working OK for me at this time.

Glen

There is a Belden Tri-Shield cable that I have seen highly recommended, especially if you have concerns with signal ingress. It is claimed to be a better option to quad shield. "Belden 7915A"
https://www.tselectronic.com/belden/7915a.html?tse_Session=a7a3d244dba6946ea4fb26bdd08ac2c3
I have only seen it available in 500 foot increments. I will probably buy some when I add a 2nd antenna to my system, but the Carol Cable I am using from Home Depot is working OK for me at this time.

Glen

Thanks Glen.
This Tri-Shield looks better than the Belden I currently have.
However, there is no mention of "outdoor" use. Some coax is rated "thru-wall" and is not reccommended for outdoor use. The outdoor-rated cable generally speaks about the outer coating as UV resistant or "buriable" and such.
It would be nice if tselectronic stated in the description if this tri-shield is for outdoor use.

Thanks Glen.
This Tri-Shield looks better than the Belden I currently have.
However, there is no mention of "outdoor" use. Some coax is rated "thru-wall" and is not reccommended for outdoor use. The outdoor-rated cable generally speaks about the outer coating as UV resistant or "buriable" and such.
It would be nice if tselectronic stated in the description if this tri-shield is for outdoor use.There is no mention of any UV or underground uses. I am assuming it is a given with their products. I didn't see any mention of it on their website.http://www.belden.com/03Products/03_Coaxial.cfm

If your looking for online sources of coax tselectronics is nice to work with. Just send an email over they reply back fast if you have any questions.

Markertek, Westlake Electronic and Full Compass have always been good to work with to.


I also use Belden 1694a on all of my coax runs, but my antenna is attic mounted.

If your looking for online sources of coax tselectronics is nice to work with. Just send an email over they reply back fast if you have any questions.

Markertek, Westlake Electronic and Full Compass have always been good to work with to.


I also use Belden 1694a on all of my coax runs, but my antenna is attic mounted.

The Belden 1694A it seems, is the top-of-the-line recommended "sweep-tested" to 3.0 Ghz (some say 4.0 Ghz) RG-6 coax. It's also the most expensive @ $0.50 per foot. You are using the best their is.

According to the Westlake Elec. tech, the Belden 7915A is "sweep-tested" to the 3.0 Ghz range as well. The difference being that it's cheaper @ $0.20 per foot.

According to other sites specs on the Belden in the "Durobond II" category and is outdoor rated with UV resistant coating. The Westlake Elec. tech also said that the 1694A is more highly rated than the quad-shield types, because he states that is pretty much thought of as "old school technology" now...perhaps with the exception of the bury-able types.

I saw that what I have is Belden 1829A and is not bad, but only sweep-rated to 2.25 Ghz. I would just go ahead and use it if I had more than 50 ft. left.

Thanks for the supplier tips. Westlake is a good source and good price, but they have no 7915A in stock.

All I have is the built in ATSC/QAM Tuner in my Samsung LN-T4665F LCD. It has an optical out, but it only outputs 2 channel stereo. Not really sure what the wisdom is behind that.
Page 11 in the User Manual for LN-T4665F says it supports 5.1CH output via Optical.
However, only a few select programs, mostly in primetime, transmit 5.1CH
with all 6 channels actually populated....many are 2.0 within 5.1.

I have a channel master 4221 and decided Not to use the Balun that comes with it. It is the same Balun you mentioned.
The reason I'm using a different Balun is because the Balun that comes with the CM 4221 has long leads. Don't these leads act like "twin lead" antenna wire?
I have terrible multipath problems at my location in my attic, so I'm thinking the indoor Balun with short leads from our local cable co. would perform better.
Am I correct, or would you recommend I use the Balun supplied with my CM 4221?

Edit
After looking at your excel file: "Balun Loss Using TWC-SD Freqs RevC.xls"
I decided to use my RMS branded Balun (model # CA-2600F). It is a very fat one compared to most others, and has real short leads.
I also have a Sega Balun, which came with my Sega Master System, or Genesis.
The "twin-lead" wires on a Balun are no more of a problem than the "twin-lead"
feed structures within your CM4221. Cut 'em a little bit shorter if you like....

If the antenna is outdoors, an "indoor" balun may eventually soak up moisture and cause problems.....

Depending on your length of run, you can get 100' of RG-11 with the ends on it for $29.99 for Rick Wertman. (on the forums).

For that price you cannot go wrong! (30 Cents a foot)

The Belden 1694A it seems, is the top-of-the-line recommended "sweep-tested" to 3.0 Ghz (some say 4.0 Ghz) RG-6 coax. It's also the most expensive @ $0.50 per foot. You are using the best their is.

I used 1694a in my new construction due to the main video rack feeding component and RGBHV video signals to different locations in the house. The small run to the OTA antenna in the attic was the left over cable. I also bought the cable a few years back and was only around $0.28/foot.

I just purchased 500 feet of 7915A from Broadband Utopia for $68.82.
I did not, however purchase the the RG-6 kit with all new tools and Thomas & Betts Snap-N-Seal fittings for $48.00. I already have a good stripper and professional-grade hex crimper, so I've been using the gold crimp-on connectors from Radio Shack.

I hope that this in not going to be a cause for loss or a diminishing in performance...
$48 is expensive for a whole new tool kit and 10 RG-6 fittings. The gold crimp-on connectors from Radio Shack seem to have worked fine. On the only outdoor fitting up on the antenna where it's connected to the balun, that is siliconed and taped with 3M UV resistant tape and is completely water and weather-proof.

However, the "crimp-on" type F-connectors (gold or otherwise) seem to have fallen out of favor and many have stopped carrying them in favor of the more high-end (and more expensive) snap seal type with guides and o-rings and such.

Am I out-of step here? With everything digital, high-def, ultra-high frequency... are my old-school F-connectors a cause for concern? Do I need to invest inthese high-end connectors and tools?

F connectors are fine. You would waterproof the connector with dielectric paste, coax seal, rubber boot outside.

Compression has its start up costs and the fittings are expensive in comparison. may buy the tools and a bag of 50 fittings and end up using them in no time reworking all the connections.

ppc makes a good fitting. they are headquarted here.

for example
ppc ex6xl $16.50
tool available at lowes ideal brand
2 level wirestripper $19 also available at lowes...Ideal brand

for rcg 6, I use vextra v621 single solid copper and belden 7915A where I need shieled protection

http://sadoun.com/Sat/Order/Install/Stripper.htm

http://sadoun.com/Sat/Products/Install/HY-P501F-Cable-Stripper.htm

http://sadoun.com/Sat/Products/Perfect/Ripley-compression-tool.htm

http://www.sadoun.com/Sat/Products/S/80td6602ubs_vextra_dual_rg6_60.htm

Is the compression tool $59 at Lowes as it is at sandoun.com?
The 50 fittings are reasonable as is the stripper, but the compression tool seems rather pricey.

Menards has this tool for $59.95
Paladin SealTite® Pro Crimper
http://www.paladin-tools.com/view_tool.php?id=118&parent_id=138
It claims to work with all manufacturer's compression fittings.
I have only purchased the Paladin fittings that are on the same shelf as the tool, so I don't know how well this tool works with "other" compression fittings. The package includes a long list of fittings/settings to use with other manufacturer's compression fittings.
This tool seems to work fairly well. I haven't used any other compression tool.
The instructions are a bit confusing at first, you need to switch the position of the "head", as it is in the position for setting RCA/BNC fittings as it comes out of the package.
There also seems to be some minor conflicts in the head adjusting position as stated in the instructions. A setting that causes the compression that is "too much" will result in the metal ring behind the 'O' ring to separate from the body of the fitting, resulting in a loose ring that will slide down your coax.
Some trial & error is needed to get familiar with this tool.
I replaced about 10 of my old "crimp" style fittings on RG6 coax that were made with a cheap Magnavox crimping tool, also sold at Menards.

The compression tool sold at Lowes is very similar to the ultraseal in the example I gave...possibly the same tool. I purchased that tool at lowes in a pinch and it has held up great. That tool is the top end tool at my distributor

lowes also sells the 2 way stripper just as in the sadoun example...also the ideal brand.

I do not suggest the lower end ppc compression fittings at lowes though (silver with blue) .

ask saldoun for a kit price including a bag of fittings...

Thanks Rick...
I ordered a compression tool, 3-blade stripper and a bag of 50 PPC EX6XL F-connectors from sandoun.
I didn't need the cutters as I already have a pair just like with the double-notch head as compared to the regular diagonal cutters. It all came out to about $46. I can both change out my old "ends" over time and use these new type for my upcoming installations of feeding another room, making a couple patch length cables and eventially a new downlead from the antenna.

In the trade...PPC is known as...Piss Poor Connectors...;)

Depending on your length of run, you can get 100' of RG-11 with the ends on it for $29.99 for Rick Wertman. (on the forums).

For that price you cannot go wrong! (30 Cents a foot)

RG-11 is WAAAAAAY overkill for 100'...:rolleyes:

In the trade...PPC is known as...Piss Poor Connectors...;)
I wish I would have known that before I ordered a bag of 50...
What are the good connectors then? I've seen some that are like $10 [F-Conn] or $20 each, but I'm not paying that.
Digicon are expensive. Thomas & Betts are expensive as well. What do you recommend?

Gilbert...But they aren't cheap either...But didn't you say you wanted something that will last years???

Question for the experts:

Is this a good model to test signal levels for digital and analog television broadcasts? And is it fairly simple to use? I want to get something to use in my indoor antenna shootout....so I can get some instrument measured data....aka hard facts.


Sencore SLM 1453i

The compression tool sold at Lowes is very similar to the ultraseal in the example I gave...possibly the same tool. I purchased that tool at lowes in a pinch and it has held up great. That tool is the top end tool at my distributor

lowes also sells the 2 way stripper just as in the sadoun example...also the ideal brand.

I do not suggest the lower end ppc compression fittings at lowes though (silver with blue) .

ask saldoun for a kit price including a bag of fittings...

I went to our local Orvac Electronics supply. Lots of help there, cable guys with a PT job, engineers etc. The expensive tools are there, and they have their favorites if the customer is a cableguy. But for a good all around job the guy said he regularly uses the Zenith ZDS 5060 Coaxial Connector Kit

http://www.thenewconnection.com/vi-50867________Zenith-Pro-Series-ZDS5060.html

which includes the compression tool and 10 gold connectors. It's reasonably priced, and I bought an extra dozen outdoor connectors and a two blade stripper to go with it, $40 total got me in business for making nice clean fittings. The compression tool feels right, cable fits in and out nicely and it's easy to use. We're talking digital TV here...the signal is there or it isn't. If it's marginal then perhaps look at the extra high end cable but most likely you're going to have good days and plenty of bad ones. But I'd bet if you use this device and the outdoor fittings that are readily available, you'll have no complaints. Out with the RG-59!

Rick's advice re: using rubber boots and dialectric paste seems real good, I will add it to my system. Decent cable with good performance and good clean connectors, it's going to work. The tech at Orvac added that it is a good thing to slip a weatherproof heat-shrink over the cable prior to tightening for final weatherproofing. If you are dealing with a 60-signal to begin with, the best cable and connectors are not going to lock in the picture. Good clean fittings & cable vs old wire and yesterday's fittings can make a difference in my opinion. 50-cent cable where 30-cent cable will perform just as well makes no sense to me unless you have it on hand as the one participant did. A $60 - $80 crimp and compression tool is pretty and nice to use but the one I bought feels good and works very well. If I decide to become a DishTV or CableCo installer then I'll get one. Most can afford a $40 investment to get into the business of making your connections tight, effective and pretty. So far I've replaced two crucial cables and fittings, and done some tidying up where there was a coil of cable that was just adding footage and nothing more. Now I have 15' of Tri-shield to use somewhere else.

The HDTVexpert chimes in on Spectrum Analyzers.

NO MORE HIT-OR MISS

Spectrum analyzers should be an essential part of your toolkit

by Peter H. Putman, CTS

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/hitormiss.htm


I love that fellows site. I wonder if he posts here.

Gilbert...But they aren't cheap either...But didn't you say you wanted something that will last years???
Which of the variety of Corning Gilbert connectors to you recommend? UltraSeal or UltraEase or what? What is your opinion or experience with the "Snap-N-Seal" or the Digicon S-series? It's probably too late to cancel my order of Pretty Crappy Connectors, but I can make a note of the exact best before I order the next time.

Which of the variety of Corning Gilbert connectors to you recommend? UltraSeal or UltraEase or what? What is your opinion or experience with the "Snap-N-Seal" or the Digicon S-series? It's probably too late to cancel my order of Pretty Crappy Connectors, but I can make a note of the exact best before I order the next time.

Either are excellent choices...SNS or 'Snap-N-Seal' are also excellent...Forget the Digicon crap...

stick with your purchase...the ppc exl line is fine.

I probably used a bag in my setup in the picture alone.
Professional looking job in that first pic...:rolleyes:

I can't tell you how many homes I have been to...to replace the PPC connectors that were causing a multitude of issues...including...but not limited to...ingress and egress...You haven't been in the trade very long...if at all...with a comment like this:

I have not heard anything negative in that regards to ppc in the trade.


Yes they work...Pain to properly install...Won't last the 'years' he is looking for...especially if used outdoors...

I recently had an outdoor antenna installed. It is the Stealth model, outside mounted with an amplifier connected close to the antenna. Instead of using a seperate cable the installer integrated it with the existing Satellite Dish cable. It was then hooked up to my HDTV. Besides the Satellite channels I have 37 DTV plus another 12 air. The picture on the DTV channels look good. The problem comes in at "I am no longer able to use my VCR to record on any channels both Satellite and Antenna". Prior to this I used my VCR to record programs but now the signal is terrible and goes in and out, The installer is using the TV selection on my Samsung for the outdoor antenna and the other 2 selections on my TV is for the Satellite cable and my DVD player, The installer told me I needed an amplifier or a preamp for the VCR. Does this make sense and do you think it would solve the problem?

You can connect either the antenna or the satellite to the VCR input...then VCR out to TV...One or the other...No other equipment is necessary...Unless you want to record from both...not at the same time of course...you can use an A-B switch that the antenna & satellite connect to...then the output to the VCR input...then the VCR output to the TV...

Running either/or thru the VCR however will prevent any HD viewing using those sources...

CM 4220 came in today.

What is the best way to attach the balun to the CM 4220? Straight down the middle, around back of the bowtie pole? The balun seems to fit perfectly in the recessed area between the bowties at the bottom of the face. Should the balun wires not cross the feedlines or each other?

http://pimages.solidsignal.com/CM4220_zoom.jpg

Is that a picture of your set-up, or just a generic picture ? The balun looks fine in that picture. You want to prevent water from getting into the balun and coax.
Id be interested in seeing a closeup of that plastic stand-off that holds up the bow-tie.

Ill snap one tommorrow. I only have it half way mounted as Ill be testing a Winegard 4400 out at that location as well. How do you upload a pic and have it auto display 300ohm? Instead of as an attachment you click on.

Are PPC EX6 fittings like the XL and are they ok to use?

EX6s are a little shorter and can't be compressed with fixed barrel length tools that match the EX6XL and most other compression connectors, unless you shim them with a couple of the tiny nuts that come with F81 barrel splices.

How do you upload a pic and have it auto display 300ohm? Instead of as an attachment you click on.


Upload the pic to a site like imageshack and post the direct link in the "Insert Image" icon on this posting reply screen.

(also for good posting etiquette, reduce the byte size of the picture with something like pixresizer. Imageshack can also reduce the byte size on the upload)

Hey Splicer, thanks for your response. I do have an AB splitter going to the VCR then to the TV but when I use the TV alone the picture is fine, when I select the option on my HDTV's remote for using the VCR the signal gets terrible if any signal at all. Do you think having an preamp or amp behind my TV, aside from the one outside might help this?

What bite size should I use? Im using 320x240 and 640x480 re-sized pics. Is that about right?

Hey Splicer, thanks for your response. I do have an AB splitter going to the VCR then to the TV but when I use the TV alone the picture is fine, when I select the option on my HDTV's remote for using the VCR the signal gets terrible if any signal at all. Do you think having an preamp or amp behind my TV, aside from the one outside might help this?

Depending on the type of A-B switch...manual or electronic...make sure it is switched to the desired source...Then be sure to have the TV tuned to channel 3 or 4...whichever channel the VCR is set to output on...Or if using the VCR composite connection...that the proper input on the TV is selected...

It dosent sound like you need an amp...especially if you already have one...Another thing...Make sure the TV/VCR button is on TV to use the TV tuner...VCR to use the built in tuner...Also make sure if using Satellite and that if using the coaxial connection...that the VCR tuner is set to either channel 3 or 4...whatever the sat box is set to output on...If using composite make sure the VCR is set on the appropriate input...Hope this helps...:)

I ordered 2 of these from Solid Signal.

Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner for Antenna (UVSJ)

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ


but recieved 2 of these.

Holland Electronics, UVSJ, UHF/VHF: Separator/Combiner

http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/catalog.php?product_id=UHF-VHF-SEPERATOR-JOINER

What's up with that?



Also, what is the difference between a diplexer and a seperator/combiner and a splitter?

Also, what is the difference between a diplexer and a seperator/combiner and a splitter?

Nothing worth noting...A splitter can be used as a combiner and a combiner can be used as a splitter...

I ordered 2 of these from Solid Signal.

Pico Macom UVSJ UHF VHF Band Separator/Combiner for Antenna (UVSJ)

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=UVSJ


but recieved 2 of these.

Holland Electronics, UVSJ, UHF/VHF: Separator/Combiner

http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/catalog.php?product_id=UHF-VHF-SEPERATOR-JOINER

What's up with that?



Also, what is the difference between a diplexer and a seperator/combiner and a splitter?
UHF Loss for Holland UVSJ says "0.7 dB Typical"
http://www.hollandelectronics.com/catalog/upload_file/Filters-Diplexers.pdf
whereas Pico UVSJ says "0.5 dB MAX" (Q: Presumably all across the UHF band???):
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf

Presuming Pico specs are accurate, the Holland device "typically" has 0.2 dB (OR MORE)
UHF loss than the MAX loss in the Pico....so Holland device may have perhaps 0.5 dB higher loss.

Will you actually see any difference....doubtful....
but you should complain anyway re the substitution....

============================
A conventional RF Combiner/Splitter uses a wideband, balanced hybrid transformer which has
about 0.5+ dB insertion loss ONLY when the two input signals are EQUAL strength and IN-PHASE.
If not, it has about 3.5+ dB insertion loss, due to imbalanced signals being dissipated in an internal resistor.

A "Diplexer" or "Band Separator" is the same thing. It uses a pair of low-loss band pass filters
in parallel to separate frequency bands. In the UVSJ, a VHF filter sends only VHF signals to the VHF port
and similarly a UHF filter for UHF signals. In a TV/SAT Diplexer, one filter is used for TV band
(below 803 MHz) and a second filter for SAT (above).

A seperator/combiner is a better choice if it fits your needs. A standard 2 way splitter usually has 3-4 db insertion loss; vs. a 0.5 db insertion loss with a seperator/combiner. Plus, a seperator /combiner like the UVSJ can help filter out of band signals from getting in to your system.

Thanks Hollands and Digital Rules! I called SS, and the gal there said that she would look into it and call me back. She didnt seem to understand why the switch was made. If I wanted any old junk, I would have gone down to the True Value. ;)

Here is a pic of my newly assembled Winegard 4400. I dont think the build quality matches that of the Channel Master. Also the Channel Master came preassembled. Winegard 4400, some assembly required. Also, the picture led me to believe that a mast mount was included, it was not. Furthermore the brass plated steel bolts didnt come with matching nuts and washers...those were steel. One more thing, some of the front element assembly's elements/whiskers didnt fold out perpendicular to the sub-mast....the plastic behind them has grooves which the elements/whiskers settle into for support.

The front post and the back post come preassembled, but you have to twist out the elements and then join them together.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn88/EscapeVelo/IMG_0029.jpg

300ohm,

Here are the pics of the CM 4220. I liked that it came pre-assembled, and the quality materials. The reflector screen is pretty hefty and stout. Also the reflector screen seems to be out of a flat plane.

As you can see, its either brass or brass plated steel that spaces the bow tie assembly from the reflector.

Please excuse the quickie ghetto mount. :)

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn88/EscapeVelo/IMG_0024.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn88/EscapeVelo/IMG_0026.jpg

Also the reflector screen seems to be out of a flat plane.



For what it's worth, the reflectors on CM's 4 bay and 8 bay are bowed too, not in a plane. The really curious thing is that on one the edges bend towards the front, and on the other they bend away from the front.

...She didnt seem to understand why the switch was made. If I wanted any old junk, I would have gone down to the True Value. ;)Most webstores show the Pico Macom UVSJ as discontinued by the manufacturer. That must be the reason for the subsitution at SolidSignal. I placed an order for some of them last week, from a different store, whose webpage showed them in stock, only to get an email that said they had been discontinued and that they would update the webpage.:(

Thanks for the detail pics, EscapeVelocity.

I always thought the reflector edge bends on the CM 4220 were backwards, and with the detail pics showing the vertical wires on the grid being closest to the elements, instead of the horizontal wires, it confirms my suspisions that the reflector is backwards overall.

I wonder why they did it that way. Is it because of the way it mounts to the pole ?

Yeah, it seem to me the end would bend forward. Are you saying that the horizontal wires on the reflector(fencing) should be on the forward side for best performance? Why is that?

The 4220 & the 4221 both have the screens curved forward, then the last row bent backwards as shown in EV's 2nd pic.

Are you saying that the horizontal wires on the reflector(fencing) should be on the forward side for best performance? Why is that?


Yeah. North American TV is a horizontally polarized transmission. To me, it makes sense for the signal to hit the horizontal wires first as they are the most important. Im sure it only makes a teeny tiny difference though. But it makes the whole reflector look like its assembled backwards to me. :p

I think that Solid Signal should pony up some Blonder ZUVSJ's as substitute for my Pico-Macom's if they are out of stock. Hopefully they will have some, but if not, Ill take the Blonder ZUVSJ's.

Pico-Macom phone number is at bottom of the spec sheet....give 'em a call to find a retailer.

Well, I just put up my second XG-91 for my double stack. I tried vertical, no improvement... horizontal at various spacing.. VERY little improvement. then I just just sat one antenna on top of the other, piggyback style, with the top antenna extending about 10 inches in front of the bottom one. So they are touching, attached together with duct tape and zip ties.... lined up vertically and horizontally, just staggered front to back with about a 10 inch offset. And it gives me consistent improvment of signal strength by about 15 percent across the board. I'm watching digital stations from 120 miles right now as I type this. Everyone keep talking about how these things have to be in phase, but the piggyback in the only thing that works for me. Any explanations? ( I DID make my two downleads EXACTLY the same length, to the 16th of an inch)

Well, I just put up my second XG-91 for my double stack. I tried vertical, no improvement... horizontal at various spacing.. VERY little improvement. then I just just sat one antenna on top of the other, piggyback style, with the top antenna extending about 10 inches in front of the bottom one. So they are touching, attached together with duct tape and zip ties.... lined up vertically and horizontally, just staggered front to back with about a 10 inch offset. And it gives me consistent improvment of signal strength by about 15 percent across the board. I'm watching digital stations from 120 miles right now as I type this. Everyone keep talking about how these things have to be in phase, but the piggyback in the only thing that works for me. Any explanations? ( I DID make my two downleads EXACTLY the same length, to the 16th of an inch)

Assuming you have identical coax cable lengths to the combiner, it sounds like the baluns could be out of phase. You should be able to open one up and reverse the polarity if I'm not mistaken. It should be easy to tell: out of phase will actually create a forward NULL. Once properly set up, I think you'll find horizontal to give the best result.

So they are touching, attached together with duct tape and zip ties....
Heh, test for vhf-hi performance.

As you can see, its either brass or brass plated steel that spaces the bow tie assembly from the reflector.
More likely, it's anodized aluminum.

Ron

I just just sat one antenna on top of the other, piggyback style, with the top antenna extending about 10 inches in front of the bottom one. So they are touching, attached together with duct tape and zip ties.... lined up vertically and horizontally, just staggered front to back with about a 10 inch offset.Could you post a picture? I'm just not getting what you have done from the description. Maybe it's just too early on a Sunday morning, or something.:o

Assuming you have identical coax cable lengths to the combiner, it sounds like the baluns could be out of phase. You should be able to open one up and reverse the polarity if I'm not mistaken. It should be easy to tell: out of phase will actually create a forward NULL. Once properly set up, I think you'll find horizontal to give the best result.

I definately don't have any forward null.... this setup has increased my signal by about 15 percent over my single XG-91, while the vertical and horizontal stacks I did (according to everyone's instructions) didn't do a damn thing, except a 48 inch horizontal gave me about 5 percent improvement. And someone asked about hi-VHF... my lone high VHF is digital chanel 7, and it's coming in steady at 75 percent signal strength with this setup... no LOS, and 40 miles out. All my other channels are much mroe stable, and just for kicks, I switched over to see if there was improvement on analog as well, and my weakest station, which is 78 miles out, (channel 17) was crystal clear last night, when it ususally is snowy. I'm just saying the horizontal stack didn't impress me, but the piggyback sure does!

After thinking about it, I guess thye aren't lined up vertically. When I attatched the top one to the bottom one, I rested the bottom of the "U" bracket, and the bottom of the reflector grid on the boom of the lower one. The BACK of the reflector grid on the top unit is touching the FRONT of the reflector grid on the bottom unit. So this makes the top antenna point at a downward angle compared to the bottom one. Techincally, it's not supposed to work, but it damn well does!!!

> As you can see, its either brass or brass plated steel
> that spaces the bow tie assembly from the reflector.

Might be steel with yellow chromate? If a magnet sticks
it is steel.