The Official AVS Antenna Topic! [Text View] - Page 32

Splicer010

09-05-08, 08:55 AM

WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!Why are you giving out such incorrect/uninformed advice with over 1000 posts???? A USVJ isolates the 2 bands to eliminate duplicate frequencies. It also filters out out of band signals. A splitter does neither of these.

Why don't you quote EXACTLY what I posted vs. only partially???:rolleyes: Not to mention you will NOT see duplicate frequencies on both the UHF and VHF bands...Pretty much an impossible feat...And finally...Of course it "filters out out of band signals"...Duh...It will only pass the frequencies it is rated for...THE SAME AS A SPLITTER WILL ONLY PASS THE FREQUENCIES IT IS RATED FOR...

A 2 way splitter does the EXACT same thing people...Unless you are running 2 seperate inputs on your receiver/TV...and need to seperate the uhf/vhf frequencies...

As far as insertion loss, 3-4db, vs. 0.5 db "can" make a difference to the average joe. Even with a good antenna system, many find some stations that are weak enough to cause unreliable reception. For those right on the digital edge; the additional 2-3 db "can" improve reception; and help eliminate digital hiccups. These are the people that would benefit greatly from a PRE AMP...And if they have a "good antenna system" to begin with...they most likely have one already... Both the UVSJ, and HLSJ are "vital" components in my system; thanks to the expert advice I received here from Rick0725.(Many Thanks!!)

These are not "vital" unless you are actually using different receiver inputs as I mentioned in my original post...and even then are not "vital"...I do this stuff for a living...Have done so for more than 26 years...Unless you are using specifically 'cut' antennas...a 2 way will work just fine for the poster I was replying to...I don't know your setup so can't comment any further on that...

Tobias Ziegler

09-05-08, 09:10 AM

Not to mention you will NOT see duplicate frequencies on both the UHF and VHF bands...Pretty much an impossible feat...

Perhaps I'm not understanding you, but are you sure that you want to say that?

Does your statement apply with other antenna combinations, or are you refering strictly to those mentioned in this conversation?

I ask with this thought in mind: What if the UHF antenna was a CM 4228? How many references to it being a satisfactory VHF antenna in some situations have there been on this thread? Would you count on it to not send a VHF signal into the combiner*, only to have it combined with the signals from a true VHF antenna on the combiner's* other input?

*edit: replaced original word "mixer" with "combiner".

Splicer010

09-05-08, 09:38 AM

Absolutely I want to say that...or I would not have said it...

You will not see a UHF frequency duplicated on the VHF band...and vice versa..

Now if what was meant that 2 of the same frequencies on one band or the other...well of course it is possible...but highly unlikely...and even so a USVJ cannot differentiate between the desired signal and the unwanted signal...

UHF antennas as well as VHF antennas both will recieve the other band besides the band it is designed for...just not optimally...regardless...in virtually all installations...the opposing band will have such a minimal effect that it won't have any consequence on the end result...

Would you count on it to not send a VHF signal into the mixer, only to have it combined with the signals from a true VHF antenna on the mixer's other input? Not quite sure I follow you here...When you say "mixer"...do you mean a combiner??? And if indeed that is what you mean...that really has nothing to do with what the discussion is over...which is a seperator...What I am saying is a seperator in most cases...is unneccessary and a combiner...esentially a splitter used in reverse...is all that is needed with the dual bow tie antenna OR bow tie...UHF...and rabbit ears...VHF...UNLESS you are running 2 seperate inputs on your receiver/TV...and need to seperate the uhf/vhf frequencies...

300ohm

09-05-08, 10:04 AM

As far as insertion loss, 3-4db, vs. 0.5 db "can" make a difference to the average joe.

Keep in mind the .5db figure is basically a best case scenario. With a bad connection, it can be much, much worse.

Tobias Ziegler

09-05-08, 10:16 AM

Other random thoughts:

How many people have made an antenna selection based on a difference of .5db? I suspect many.

We use RG6 instead of RG59 because of signal loss on this scale.

And 3 db sounds like the difference between seeing the 4th quarter of an out-of DMA football game and not seeing it (if its signal is fading).

Digital Rules

09-05-08, 10:24 AM

Why don't you quote EXACTLY what I posted vs. only partially???:rolleyes: Not to mention you will NOT see duplicate frequencies on both the UHF and VHF bands...Pretty much an impossible feat...And finally...Of course it "filters out out of band signals"...Duh...It will only pass the frequencies it is rated for...THE SAME AS A SPLITTER WILL ONLY PASS THE FREQUENCIES IT IS RATED FOR...

These are the people that would benefit greatly from a PRE AMP...And if they have a "good antenna system" to begin with...they most likely have one already...

These are not "vital" unless you are actually using different receiver inputs as I mentioned in my original post...and even then are not "vital"...I do this stuff for a living...Have done so for more than 26 years...Unless you are using specifically 'cut' antennas...a 2 way will work just fine for the poster I was replying to...I don't know your setup so can't comment any further on that...You are so far out of touch with what the UVSJ is designed for. Have you ever even used one? When the "real" antenna experts chime in; you will need to retract these inaccuracies.

Tobias, I suggest you wait to see wht others say about this issue. I don't know where this guy is getting his information from.

Splicer010

09-05-08, 10:28 AM

How many people have made an antenna selection based on a difference of .5db? I suspect many. Many that don't really know the reason...just that it is .5 'better'...It is a 'mindset' issue more than anything else...

We use RG6 instead of RG59 because of signal loss on this scale.Not exactly true...If the difference was a mere .5dB...I assure you that the added expense of the larger RG6 would not be justified...Again... @ .5dB...it is a 'mindset' advantage...Now if we were talking 2dB and up...and that indeed is the case...then of course the expense is justified...

And 3 db sounds like the difference between seeing the 4th quarter of an out-of DMA football game and not seeing it (if its signal is fading).In this instance it is probable that the first 3 quarters weren't seen either...In which case a pre-amp is what is needed...

Splicer010

09-05-08, 10:35 AM

You are so far out of touch with what the UVSJ is designed for. Have you ever even used one? When the "real" antenna experts chime in; you will need to retract these inaccuracies.

Separates and isolates VHF (54-216 MHz) from UHF high (470-809 MHz) signals providing for clean insertion into headend strip amplifier. Filters and mixes VHF and UHF signals allowing mixing of multiple antenna onto single cable.
This is what it is designed for...When you go out and design and build CATV headends and OSP as I have for the past 26+ years...you might then actually have something intelligent to say...

Filters and mixes VHF and UHF signals allowing mixing of multiple antenna onto single cable. This is another way of saying IT IS A COMBINER!!!:rolleyes:

Better yet...I could use a good laugh...why don't YOU tell me what a UVSJ is designed for...:rolleyes:

Don_M

09-05-08, 02:39 PM

I see Solid Signal has a Pico Macom UVSJ for $3.99 so if I pick up another CECB there, it would be the easy way to go. I assume this is a much better solution than the combiner thing I saw at RS that had two sets of inputs for the flat leads and a coax out?

Subsequent posters are correct about the availability of the Pico Macoms, and SS has taken some criticism for selling what they call PMs when what purchasers get are Hollands. They recently put a disclaimer to that effect on the product page. The Holland is a smidge more lossy than the PM at 0.7 dB insertion loss vs. 0.5 dB, but that still beats a splitter or the combiner you described by several country miles. Best of all, they don't cost any more to buy.

I recently bought a Holland UVSJ from SS to combine my hand-built DB-4 clone for UHF with an AntennaCraft Y5713 for VHF-high. Signal levels are higher, if anything -- upper 80s to low 90s average -- and they're a lot more stable now than they were on just the UHF antenna. Haven't had a dropout since insertion. Setup is in the attic 60 feet from one receiver, we don't need a pre-amp, and we're 23 miles with LOS from all of the network affiliates. I can't say enough good things about the UVSJ.

... I hooked my new CECB up to the apartment antenna on roof and got a grand total of 1 digital channel.

Splicer was spot on with that list of things that typically go wrong with community antenna systems in apartment buildings. Just like to add: If the building is more than 25-30 years old, chances are real good its antenna is VHF only. Most of your digitals are UHF, now and after the transition. Pestering the manager/super about a new antenna and upgraded system might be in order. A community antenna high on the roof would be a lot less vulnerable to train dropouts. And, after all, they gotta put up with you for another year!

... Both the UVSJ, and HLSJ are "vital" components in my system; thanks to the expert advice I received here from Rick0725.(Many Thanks!!)

Hear, hear! I found out about them from him, too. Guy's advice is golden, far as I'm concerned.

Tower Guy

09-05-08, 02:54 PM

UHF antennas as well as VHF antennas both will recieve the other band besides the band it is designed for...just not optimally...regardless...in virtually all installations...the opposing band will have such a minimal effect that it won't have any consequence on the end result...

That's not right.

The VHF rabbit ears will pick up a UHF signal complete with reflections. When added to a dedicated UHF antenna with a splitter the refelections from the rabbit ears are added to the UHF antenna. When added with a UVSJ, the UHF reflections are filtered out.

Hence the diffference is both a stronger and a cleaner UHF signal with a UVSJ compared to a splitter used backwards.

Don_M

09-05-08, 03:05 PM

... If the building is more than 25-30 years old, chances are real good its antenna is VHF only.

Which brings up another way to skin this particular cat: Forget the rabbit ears for now, and try connecting the building antenna to the VHF side of the UVSJ. Run the double bowtie's coax to its UHF connector as before. Worth a shot; get the rabbit ears if it doesn't work. (Wish I'd known about the UVSJ years ago when I lived in an apartment house with a community VHF antenna. Hooked the system into an A/B switch; fed the other side of the switch with a beat-up RS Grey-Hoverman knockoff for UHF. Whadda pain!)

EscapeVelocity

09-05-08, 03:34 PM

The Holland and JVI and Blonder Tongue versions of the UVSJ are all good. The Picos had slightly better specs, though. However the others were/are cheaper.

The Radio Shack UHF/VHF Seperator/Combiner is more expensive but can be picked up at the local store, and no shipping.

Splicer010

09-05-08, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Splicer010
UHF antennas as well as VHF antennas both will recieve the other band besides the band it is designed for...just not optimally...regardless...in virtually all installations...the opposing band will have such a minimal effect that it won't have any consequence on the end result...
That's not right.

The VHF rabbit ears will pick up a UHF signal complete with reflections. When added to a dedicated UHF antenna with a splitter the refelections from the rabbit ears are added to the UHF antenna. When added with a UVSJ, the UHF reflections are filtered out.

Hence the diffference is both a stronger and a cleaner UHF signal with a UVSJ compared to a splitter used backwards.
Yes...it IS right...You just explained in more detail...

Now you agreed that a VHF antenna will pick up UHF...but not optimally...

I also stated that virtually all installations...the opposing band will have such a minimal effect that it won't have any consequence on the end result...
and that is correct...Of course there will be situations where a UVSJ is required...I mean...why the hell else would they be made if not...Neccessity is the mother of all inventions after all...

Tower Guy

09-05-08, 04:52 PM

Now you agreed that a VHF antenna will pick up UHF...[b]but not optimally...

With DTV "less than optimum" usually means dropouts and pixelization.

Splicer010

09-05-08, 08:29 PM

With DTV "less than optimum" usually means dropouts and pixelization.

Or no reception at all...I never said otherwise...;)

Konrad2

09-05-08, 09:14 PM

>>> If the building is more than 25-30 years old, chances are
>>> real good its antenna is VHF only.

Depends on where you live.

>> Wish I'd known about the UVSJ years ago when I lived in an
>> apartment house with a community VHF antenna. Hooked the
>> system into an A/B switch; fed the other side of the switch
>> with a beat-up RS Grey-Hoverman knockoff for UHF. Whadda pain!

Yes, the switch is less convenient than the UVSJ diplexor,
but you may get better reception using the switch. The less
stuff on the wire, the less distortion and interference you
get. Extra stuff on the wire can even force the tuner's AGC
to reduce the signal of your desired station, resulting in
a worse S/N (snow on analog). This can be especially
problematic when the desired station is weak.

> The Holland and JVI and Blonder Tongue versions of the UVSJ are
> all good. The Picos had slightly better specs, though. However
> the others were/are cheaper.

I found the Pico UVSJ available for $0.93 less than a year ago.

The UVSJ can be used as a high pass filter by terminating the VHF port.
That's what I'm using mine for now, since I get better reception
with VHF and UHF kept seperate. You can use the same trick with the
HLSJ diplexor to improve reception of VHF-HI.

Digital Rules

09-05-08, 10:03 PM

The UVSJ can be used as a high pass filter by terminating the VHF port.
That's what I'm using mine for now, since I get better reception
with VHF and UHF kept seperate. You can use the same trick with the
HLSJ diplexor to improve reception of VHF-HI.Finally someone speaks the real truth!! Thanks Konrad2 for verifying some of the excellent uses of these 2 items. Those of us who seek to maximize our reception appreciate this accurate; excellent advice!!

I do pretty much what you do; but I must pre-filter my VHF-HI antenna (YA-1713) with the HLSJ. If I don't pre-filter out the Low VHF; I lose some of my weaker UHF channels once it is connected to the UVSJ. The HLSJ also improves my 1 VHF digital quite a bit. For less than $10.00; I get many more channels reliably than I would using a conventional 2 way splitter.

Thanks again!!

AntAltMike

09-05-08, 11:28 PM

There is no reason to believe that the Pico UVSJ has less loss than the Holland or Blonder Tongue products. These are dime-store products that probably don't cost ten cents each to make, and there is no reason to have a laboratory precisely evaluate them. Because they all use the same chincy "center conductor seizure mechanism" that the 1GHz F-81s use that some hobbiests disdain, the actual loss will vary by a few tenths of a dB just based on how well that center conductor rubs up against the tiny piece of tin plated steel in the UVSJ that mates with it, and the loss will actually vary a few tenths of a dB over the UHF band.

BTW, for whatever use anyone might make of this, the HLSJ passes channels 7-69 on its VHF-hi leg.

nybbler

09-05-08, 11:51 PM

BTW, for whatever use anyone might make of this, the HLSJ passes channels 7-69 on its VHF-hi leg.

Thanks, that is useful; it means I can easily use one antenna for Channel 6 and one antenna for Channel 12 and UHF.

HEDND

09-06-08, 03:31 AM

splicer010
You are so wrong about combining uhf and vhf with a common splitter! I know for a fact it causes ghosts (on analog) when the bands aren't separated. Dumping seperate uhf and vhf antennas into a 2W splitter without isolation is so wrong . And the 3db deal does make a wicked difference.I am the headend tech for a cable company and deal with getting the best reception for my cutomers. 27 years dealing with off-air. I never tell people my job, but I hate people like you who give that kind of advice and think they are "SO" correct. Now give me back a wrong(nasty) reply!

Splicer010

09-06-08, 05:58 AM

AntAltMike

09-06-08, 06:29 AM

...Of course it, "filters out out of band signals"...Duh...It will only pass the frequencies it is rated for...THE SAME AS A SPLITTER WILL ONLY PASS THE FREQUENCIES IT IS RATED FOR...

The rating on a splitter assures that its design does not incidentally attenuate signals within a certain band. That does not mean it attenuates those outside the band, just as the "sweep testing" on coax does not indicate that the coax will not work well outside thits tested range. I have used 1,000 MHz sweep tested RG-6 at over 3 GHz, and so have lots of other people.

HLSJs typically have about 30 to 40dB of out-of-band rejection engineered into them. I know most of you don't have signal meters to evaluate them, but if you run your analog cable TV signal through a the VHF port on a typical UVSJ, you'll see that the picture starts to visibly degrade around channels 28 to 30 (about 250-270 MHz) and is completely wiped out by about channels 32 or 33.

A splitter, on the other hand, is not engineered to filter off any RF signal, so any out-of-band attenuation they exhibit is incidental. There are a lot of satellite splitters that say 900-2,150 MHz on them, yet in my vast experience of using them in the field, they pass the entire broadcast band just as well as splitters rated down to 54 MHz.

But I have had very bad luck using the European splitters that are rated 450 to 1,750 MHz for VHF. I've had several make channels 4 and 17 (which are harmonics of one another) really ugly visually when I tried to use them in a commercial headend in a pinch. ( I haven't recently participated in this forum as much as I had previously, but I design an average of two or three multi-antenna, multi-channel headends a month for highrise master antenna system combining half a dozen antennas and roughly balancing signals whose strengths vary by typically 40 dB coming off the downleads.)

These are the people that would benefit greatly from a PRE AMP...And if they have a "good antenna system" to begin with...they most likely have one already...

A saving of three dB of signal loss for signals that are estimated to be weak is very significant, and more so to those of you who don't have signal meters. In a situation with significant differences in signal levels, it is much better to sustain the weaker signals by minimizing system losses than by preamplification because the various intermodulation byproducts and fall on and decimate the weaker signals even when the loading of the preamp is under the benchmark intermodulation threshold that the manufacturers furnish, and unnecessarily boosting the stronger signals that cannot be separated from the weaker ones can result in tuner input overload. Any time someone is concerned about signal strength but has a system in which they can save 3dB with a four dollar part ( I pay $1 each, but I buy in quantity), they certainly should do so.

Digital Rules

09-06-08, 09:17 AM

BTW, for whatever use anyone might make of this, the HLSJ passes channels 7-69 on its VHF-hi leg.Thanks Mike, that's good to know!! This makes a "great" FM trap if it provides 30-40 db of attenuation.

HEDND

09-06-08, 10:39 AM

:rolleyes:Uh...yeah..."wicked difference"...:rolleyes: And I am real impressed...Not..."Headend Tech"..."Never tell people my job"...:rolleyes: You are so full of it your eyes are brown...:p

Sorry about the"wicked" phrase,I am from Boston . As for being a "headend tech" I use a $20,000 HP analyzer everyday to measure signal levels. I use a common CM0549 combiner to separate signals which Neilson ratings (heard of them!) pulls from my antennas to monitor Boston and Providence signals. The 0549 is rated at 30dB isolation between bands but "uh oh" I only get 28dB.They were made for a reason. By the way my eyes are green!

AntAltMike

09-06-08, 11:33 AM

Sorry about the"wicked" phrase,I am from Boston .

People from Beverly pronounce it, "wick-ed' "

Ratman

09-06-08, 11:55 AM

I use a $20,000 HP analyzer everyday to measure signal levels. I use a common CM0549 combiner to separate signals...

I have a dual-column gas chromatograph, Hewlett-Packard model 5710a with flame analyzing detectors.

Does that thing come turbo-charged?

Only on the floor models!

Sorry... couldn't resist. :D

Tobias Ziegler

09-06-08, 01:25 PM

But what's a "yute" ?

HEDND

09-06-08, 01:51 PM

Is My cousin Vinny playing? You guys are too funny! I had to put in my 2 cents before. I have "lurked" here for a very long time and stayed quiet. There is a wealth of great advice from some very knowlegeable people(too many to mention names) who know their antennas. To all of you, thanks!

holl_ands

09-07-08, 11:24 AM

FYI: Stacking Antennas and Stagger Stacking link updates:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14593948

The Hound

09-08-08, 02:16 AM

Thanks Don,

I see Solid Signal has a Pico Macom UVSJ for $3.99 so if I pick up another CECB there, it would be the easy way to go. I assume this is a much better solution than the combiner thing I saw at RS that had two sets of inputs for the flat leads and a coax out?
I use This type of unit,(the one with 300ohm, flat leads in) to combine VHF and UHF.
Then coax out to the sets.
It works fine and you wouldn't have to put bulans on the 300ohm leads.

Mloot

09-08-08, 03:54 AM

In a couple of weeks I will be visiting my grandparents and I want to improve their digital reception. Here is the tvfool plot for where they live:

http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=radardigital2wh7.png

Their current setup consists of an indoor Terk HDTVi antenna (no amplification) and a Zenith converter box. They get reliable reception on channels 2.1, 6.1, and 7.1. 18.1 is almost strong enough to lock in, but suffers from dropouts. What surprised me is that they get reliable reception on KSWO (7.1, rf channl 11) at 40 miles out.

Anyway, I want to mount an outdoor antenna and I was considering the CM 4228. I know it's a UHF antenna and is not really designed for high VHF. But do you guys think that since they get good reception on KSWO with an indoor antenna, that they should still get a reliable signal with a 4228 (with the screens zip tied together)? Or should I just consider a combo antenna, like the CM 3018?

Digital Rules

09-08-08, 06:55 AM

The 4228 is an excellent choice for your location. That channel 11 is Line of Sight, and shouldn't be a problem. Also, a great idea to tie the 2 screens together.

Tower Guy

09-08-08, 09:40 AM

SpeedyLA

09-08-08, 01:02 PM

I've tried reading some pages of this thread (256 pages!).

I'm a new reader to OTA HD and had some questions about a new home with a radiant barrier in attic and HOA rules. I would love to get free HD. I think I can use the existing TV cable installed through the house and be able to distribute from the outside hookup that was installed for the cable providers to provide service.

My zip is 75070 and there are several DT stations ~30-50mi. away.

It looks like I need a pink code antenna, which are the largest of the directionals IIRC. The house is a 2-story and has a radiant barrier, so I can't do an attic install. The HOA is restrictive, so even the FCC rules only allow a 1 meter antenna. My questions are:

1). What's the best approach to ask the HOA to allow mast-mount of a larger sized antenna on the roof? (Has anyone ever fought a case like this)
2). Or is there a pink code antenna that is within the 1 meter size?

Don_M

09-08-08, 02:18 PM

1). What's the best approach to ask the HOA to allow mast-mount of a larger sized antenna on the roof? (Has anyone ever fought a case like this)

2). Or is there a pink code antenna that is within the 1 meter size?

You'll have a hard time finding an antenna under 1 meter in size that's rated for the "pink zone." Please consider these factors:

* The 1-meter size limit you mentioned applies only to direct-broadcast satellite dishes and "wireless cable" service antennas. It does not apply to "an antenna that is designed to receive local television broadcast signals" mounted on a mast no higher than 12 feet above the roofline.

* The FCC Over-the-Air Reception Devices (OTARD) rule prohibits HOA and municipal restrictions that, among other things, "precludes a person from receiving ... an acceptable quality signal from an antenna covered under the rule." They also may not regulate so as to preclude their use, cause unnecessary delay or require unreasonable cost. The rule, available in full here (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html), does not specify how an "acceptable signal" is determined.

Thus, the HOA can influence placement of the antenna on the roof, but not so as to render it useless. It can also restrict antennas to those designed to receive "local television broadcast signals." If, for example, the stations that are 50 miles away are considered out of your market -- i.e., they're carried by neither the area's cable provider nor DBS services -- then a "pink zone" antenna could well be off limits in your HOA.

I'd print the OTARD FAQ from the link above and bring it to an association director or architectural-control committee member for a consultation before you start. A little bit of communication at the outset can go a long way toward preventing an HOA war later on.

SpeedyLA

09-08-08, 03:01 PM

Thanks Don_M!

You'll have a hard time finding an antenna under 1 meter in size that's rated for the "pink zone." Please consider these factors:

* The 1-meter size limit you mentioned applies only to direct-broadcast satellite dishes and "wireless cable" service antennas. It does not apply to "an antenna that is designed to receive local television broadcast signals" mounted on a mast no higher than 12 feet above the roofline.

Thanks, I was confused because of the wording that I was limited to 1-meter as well for TV. Am I correctly reading that there is no limit to size for television broadcast and up to a 12' mast? :)

Thus, the HOA can influence placement of the antenna on the roof, but not so as to render it useless. It can also restrict antennas to those designed to receive "local television broadcast signals." If, for example, the stations that are 50 miles away are considered out of your market -- i.e., they're carried by neither the area's cable provider nor DBS services -- then a "pink zone" antenna could well be off limits in your HOA.

I'd print the OTARD FAQ from the link above and bring it to an association director or architectural-control committee member for a consultation before you start. A little bit of communication at the outset can go a long way toward preventing an HOA war later on.

I am definitely going to try and keep open communication with the HOA. But I will definitely be giving them a copy of OTARD. As far as local programming, it's the local stations for the area, but since the Dallas metro is so large, most of the stations are ~50 mi. away. Can the HOA place a restriction based on the fact that I could get these stations with for-pay services like satellite/cable?

oc-rdx

09-08-08, 05:10 PM

The house is a 2-story and has a radiant barrier, so I can't do an attic install.

Could you remove some of the radiant barrier?

Don_M

09-08-08, 05:23 PM

Could you remove some of the radiant barrier?

Probably not without tearing off that section of the roofing material as well. The radiant barrier was put there for a reason -- to keep excessive heat from building up in the attic, and indirectly to keep a lid on AC costs. This is Texas we're talking about! Besides, an attic antenna is less likely to perform well at a range of 50 miles.

SpeedyLA

09-08-08, 05:27 PM

Could you remove some of the radiant barrier?

Not likely, it's special aluminum sheets that are installed between the rafters(?) and the roofing.

Don_M

09-08-08, 05:42 PM

Am I correctly reading that there is no limit to size for television broadcast and up to a 12' mast?

There's a size limit, all right, but the HOA's right to regulate size ends at the point where over-the-air reception becomes unreliable. An association close to the transmitters can more reasonably limit antenna size than one dozens of miles away. That's why OTARD contains no hard and fast rules beyond the "acceptable quality signals" from "local" stations yardstick. If those stations are 50 miles away, so be it: OTARD requires the HOA to stand aside as you erect an antenna sufficient to receive them reliably. But please do read the fact sheet in that link carefully so as to stay within all of the rule's safe harbors.

Can the HOA place a restriction based on the fact that I could get these stations with for-pay services like satellite/cable?

That won't cut it under OTARD, either, unless the home in question happens to be a condo unit with no balcony and where the HOA owns the building exterior, including the roof. The rule won't protect a homeowner who attaches an antenna to, or erects it upon, someone else's property, even if the individual is a member of the association owning the property. If you own the structure, or you have exclusive control over it (such as a balcony), you can attach an outdoor antenna to it, or at least place one on it.

oc-rdx

09-09-08, 03:18 PM

I live in a 2 story townhome with 4 other units attached, all side by side with back yards. They are technically condos and there are about 250 units in the complex. I see lots of satellite dishes mounted all over the place. Some on roofs, some on wood beams, chimneys & some attached to stucco walls. So it appears that my HOA does not restrict where they can be mounted. I've only seen one small wing type antenna mounted with a dish.

Can I assume that if my HOA has no enforcement of where the dishes can be mounted, they can't object to a similar location for an antenna? They can’t say dishes are ok but antennas aren’t, right? My antenna is currently in my attic.

Don_M

09-09-08, 06:16 PM

Can I assume that if my HOA has no enforcement of where the dishes can be mounted, they can't object to a similar location for an antenna? They can’t say dishes are ok but antennas aren’t, right?

Not necessarily. Under OTARD, it all depends on who owns what. If you own the exterior of the building, including the roof, you can place an antenna above the roof. Check your deed paperwork. If it shows you bought your property "fee simple," then you very likely own the exterior of your unit, the roof and the land lot it sits on. If the deed shows you own a space-frame unit, then your ownership ends around the back side of the drywall. If the association owns the exterior of your buildings and decides it does not want OTA antennas, OTARD can't be used, even if the association grants permission for dishes.

However... OTARD aside, you do bring up an interesting issue of equity under the law: Why should some people get to put up one kind of outdoor antenna (a satellite dish) when neighbors who only wish to receive local broadcasts are barred from putting up another kind of antenna, one designed for OTA? Problem is, proving such a case will involve lawyers, courtrooms -- and lots and lots of money.

IOW, if OTARD requirements are met, the burden is on the association to prove it's right. See the attached decision for more on this. If OTARD isn't applicable, the burden is on you to prove the association wrong in court.

outkst012l

09-12-08, 05:50 PM

Hi guys,

Just wanted to check in and validate if decision would be a wise one.
I live in Toronto and was particularly interested in purchasing the AntennasDirect DB-2 for indoor use. I know there are slew of antennas out there and I'm quite new to the game as i just purchased my first set of HDTV and really looking to make good use out of it (as i'm only using it as PC monitor at this time).

Could anyone give me some recommendations/suggestions etc on how i should go about this?

Thanks in advance!

-matt-

Don_M

09-12-08, 07:35 PM

I live in Toronto and was particularly interested in purchasing the AntennasDirect DB-2 for indoor use.

DB-2 is a UHF-only antenna, i.e., designed for channels 14 and up. It won't do a very good job on VHF channels, particularly 2-6. It is a lot stronger than the UHF loops found on set-top rabbit ears. Lots of posters here and elsewhere have tried a DB-2 indoors with some success, so it's certainly worth a try. Search for it under the Eagle Aspen and DirecTV brands: same antenna, lower price.

Falcon_77

09-16-08, 03:35 PM

A brochure for the new designs can be found here:

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/documentation/datasheets/Channel%20Master%20New%204200%20Series%20HDTV%20UHF%20Antenn as_200807.pdf

Note that the 4228 advertises 7-69 reception now, though I have to wonder why they are still showing up to 69. Is it to be marketable in Canada? (granted we haven't quite dropped 52-69, yet).

Other new designs can be found in the terrestrial catalog:

http://www.channelmasterintl.com/documentation/catalogs/Channel%20Master%20Terrestrial%20Catalog_20080731.pdf

I notice that they have some new combo (Advantage) designs in the above. However, they have 60" widths despite being labeled as 7-69. Are they trying to get FM with these as well?

ziggy29

09-16-08, 04:56 PM

Note that the 4228 advertises 7-69 reception now, though I have to wonder why they are still showing up to 69. Is it to be marketable in Canada? (granted we haven't quite dropped 52-69, yet).
What about the low-power stations that can still broadcast in analog after 2/17/09? Can they still use 52-69 after the transition or would they have to move to a lower frequency?

Plus, some people may want to buy this to get stations that are 52-69 today. For example, our Fox affiliate is on RF 56 (moving back to 7 in February). If getting channel 56 was important to me until then, I'd want to know the antenna wasn't designed to result in a sharp dropoff in gain above 51.

wildwillie6

09-17-08, 07:21 AM

Is there any reason to think the 4228HD is any different from, or better than, the classic 4228?

lovebohn

09-17-08, 02:02 PM

Is there any reason to think the 4228HD is any different from, or better than, the classic 4228?

Thats my question, will replacing my old 4228 make a difference? I would guess not much.

Falcon_77

09-17-08, 03:26 PM

I notice that they have some new combo (Advantage) designs in the above. However, they have 60" widths despite being labeled as 7-69. Are they trying to get FM with these as well?

Apparently, they are aiming for some FM performance on the new Advantage line. From CM:

Mike, the new Advantage line does well on FM. Yes, for the time being, the website is just a PDF of the catalog.

I think this is a good move, but should be advertised.

maratb

09-18-08, 07:42 PM

Hi Guys,

I am looking to upgrade my old indoor Silver Sensor and I am looking for something that will better fit my locale. I am surrounded by several towers and I'd like to get something that would allow me to tune without turning the antenna.

Here's the TVFool analysis of my location:
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/4900/radardigitalpi8.th.png (http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=radardigitalpi8.png)

Our house is on a steep hill (Twin Peaks, in San Francisco), facing south. I can mount the antenna outside on the south-facing wall of the house, but the strongest signal is coming from the north. However, even though I am less than a mile from the main SF Sutro tower, that tower is on the side of the hill and I have no line-of-sight to it.

Can anyone recommend an outdoor antenna for my situation? I was thinking about ClearStream 1 or 2, but I am not convinced it will work well in my location.

Oh, and I need to run about 50ft of cable from the antenna to the TV. Should I budget for an amp?

Thanks!

holl_ands

09-18-08, 09:16 PM

You can't use a Preamp or amplified antenna--it would be severely overloaded.
Indeed, that close to the transmitters, your DTV's tuner will probably be overloaded,
meaning sensitivity on certain weak channels will be degraded due to intermod products.

You might need to insert a variable RF attenuator:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/attenuator.html

Since nearby stations are going to come in no matter what, point antenna toward
weakest desired signal (e.g. 120 or 169 degrees, depending on your preferences)
and rely on sidelobes for the rest.

Clearstream, 4-Bay or 2-Bay antennas are all good choices.

Falcon_77

09-19-08, 01:56 AM

Our house is on a steep hill (Twin Peaks, in San Francisco), facing south. I can mount the antenna outside on the south-facing wall of the house, but the strongest signal is coming from the north. However, even though I am less than a mile from the main SF Sutro tower, that tower is on the side of the hill and I have no line-of-sight to it.

I would suggest re-posting this on the local thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=369015&page=150

There is some excellent local help on that thread, but from what I know of the area, you may have problems with multi-path (so a more directional antenna may be needed). An attenuator could be helpful as well.

spokybob

09-19-08, 10:59 AM

Is anyone familiar with this antenna? I spotted 2 when driving in a rural area about 50 miles from the towers.
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q297/spokybob/IMG_4588.jpg

goldrich

09-19-08, 12:30 PM

Is anyone familiar with this antenna? I spotted 2 when driving in a rural area about 50 miles from the towers.
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q297/spokybob/IMG_4588.jpg

It appears to be this Philips antenna http://www.consumer.philips.com/consumer/en/us/consumer/cc/_productid_SDV7700K_17_US_CONSUMER/TV-antenna+SDV7700K-17 I believe this is the antenna (or similar model) I've seen at Menards.

Steve

spokybob

09-19-08, 02:11 PM

Thanks Steve. I'll check it out.

bozey45

09-19-08, 05:18 PM

Antennas similar to this one were popular in the 70's; used to have one myself; it was called a "color wedge." I used mine for 27 years. Didn't even know a new version was made.

ziggy29

09-19-08, 05:29 PM

Antennas similar to this one were popular in the 70's; used to have one myself; it was called a "color wedge." I used mine for 27 years. Didn't even know a new version was made.
I'd never heard of this one. The marketing sounds like hype: 140 miles for VHF and 80 miles for UHF? Even most of the deep fringe combo antennas I've seen claim only 100/60.

AntAltMike

09-19-08, 07:54 PM

The wedge VHF antennas weren't gimmicky antennas. They just got more gain with less boom-length, which is important for survivability in harsh weather environments.

300ohm

09-19-08, 11:06 PM

Antennas similar to this one were popular in the 70's; used to have one myself; it was called a "color wedge." I used mine for 27 years. Didn't even know a new version was made.

Ive also been using it as long. I just rebuilt and reinforced mine to be used in February, as it is excellant for channel 6 and 12 which Ill need then. I believe mine was made by Channel Master.

IMO, the one in the picture above is either a Phillips Mant 901 or a Phillips sdv9011k_17 with some vhf elements missing.

The wedge VHF antennas weren't gimmicky antennas. They just got more gain with less boom-length, which is important for survivability in harsh weather environments.
Yep. As long as they are built with quality materials and workmanship.

n8wci

09-20-08, 04:05 AM

In the early 70's, I installed probably a hundred of the CM 1251b's. It was a wedge U/V, but no "reflector" on the uhf as the one pictured. A very good antenna then.
Actually several are still standing, being guyed correctly, and eye hooks in the studs, not the roof sheeting as I have seen.
For some reason, my wife just doesn't see the beauty in an antenna that I installed nearly 40 years ago. Go figure, ha ha.

Steve

300ohm

09-20-08, 01:10 PM

In the early 70's, I installed probably a hundred of the CM 1251b's. It was a wedge U/V, but no "reflector" on the uhf as the one pictured. A very good antenna then.

Thanks, Ive been looking for the model number of mine. I googled and came up with nada info or pictures of it, so I still dont know.

Did the CM 1251b have log periodic uhf elements on the boom ? Mine does. Of course the uhf section performs very poorly.

Tower Guy

09-20-08, 02:17 PM

For some reason, my wife just doesn't see the beauty in an antenna that I installed nearly 40 years ago. Go figure

My wife is just as pretty as she was 40 years ago.

Is that any better?

Dan Kolton

09-20-08, 05:43 PM

For your sake, I hope your wife doesn't see that post!

MAX HD

09-20-08, 09:26 PM

Yep,I think you need to exercise your option to delete that post.

n8wci

09-21-08, 04:23 AM

Yes the CM 1251b's had log periodics on the UHF boom, but no reflector. Our area was 20 miles from ABC,CBS,NBC,PBS, and a couple of locals, so it did well then.
My wife looks "better" than she did 40 years ago.....that's my story, and I'm stickin' with it(I know who I'm sleepin with guys!)

Steve

300ohm

09-21-08, 06:33 PM

Yes the CM 1251b's had log periodics on the UHF boom, but no reflector.

Yep, that must be the model I have then. Thanks.

ziggy29

09-21-08, 08:06 PM

My wife looks "better" than she did 40 years ago.....that's my story, and I'm stickin' with it(I know who I'm sleepin with guys!)
Same here. Especially since my wife was three months old 40 years ago!

schu132

09-22-08, 11:40 PM

Falcon_77

09-23-08, 01:09 AM

I got a cm 4228 for uhf and vhf reception. I get a good signal for channels 14 and 44 but channels 7, 9 and 13 the best I can get is about 50% on channel 9. I've connected the panels with nylon cable ties. Would an amplifier help? I live in an apartment and don't have line of sight with the tower. was thinking about an antennacraft Y5-7-13 but think it might be to big.

From the other thread, you are in Reno. Which way do you have the 4228 pointed? It's not very directional for VHF, but 7, 9 & 13 are not broadcast from the same location as 44 or 15. Also, VHF signals don't do well near the ground.

I would suggest getting an upper VHF antenna, like the one you describe, point it towards Mt. Rose and join the two antennas by way of a UVSJ diplexer.

You may want to check out a TVFool.com plot, but note that it is not using the main KNPB facility.

schu132

09-23-08, 01:41 AM

i have tried it in all directions, i get the best uhf reception from pointing it about mag 300deg using a compass I've tried pointing at 168 but no improvement. will the antennacraft yagi be effective with no los at 15 miles at ground level?

schu132

09-23-08, 01:47 AM

schu132

09-23-08, 01:52 AM

here is my tvfool plot
120429
I live in a ground level apartment with a balcony I don't think my landlord would let me put in anything bigger than my cm4228

300ohm

09-23-08, 02:16 AM

Whew, thats a pretty tough situation. Your channels are spread 120 degrees apart, and youre on a ground level apartment, with maybe all kinds of reflections and blockages. I think the best thing would be to search for hot spots. Try many locations for the cm4228 antenna.

nybbler

09-23-08, 04:27 PM

what kind of antenna is this http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/ez_hd_tv_Antenna.html
http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/EZ_HD_antenna_image.html
is it a Log-Yag antenna? what kind of gain whould it get for vhf high? would it be comparable to an antennacraft Y5-7-13?

It appears to be a two element VHF "log periodic" (not sure you can really call it that with only two elements!) with two VHF directors (no reflector). The UHF part also appears to be a yagi with folded-dipole driven element, but the first director is something odd -- it's split like a driven element would be, but not driven.

The whole antenna seems to be based on a false premise -- for TV, there's no need for the antenna to fit within a 1m circle. You can use as big an antenna as you need and you're still within the OTARD.

Don_M

09-23-08, 05:17 PM

You can use as big an antenna as you need and you're still within the OTARD.

It all depends: OTARD precludes HOAs from being so restrictive that it's tough to get "acceptable" local signals. It contains no definition of the words acceptable and local, but IMO most people would consider digital signals with no drop-outs, or very rare drop-outs, to be acceptable. The best yardstick for determining what stations are "local" would be those falling within the must-carry rules pertaining to cable operators.

The size of the antenna needed to achieve this standard varies with distance from the transmitters, of course. Thus, an HOA within a few miles of all local transmitters would have wider latitude in limiting antenna size than one dozens of miles away.

An HOA still has the power to prohibit antenna systems plainly designed to pick up more than just local stations: The guy with a multiple-antenna array atop a 60-foot tower is clearly a DXer, and so his gear would not be protected under OTARD.

Tobias Ziegler

09-23-08, 05:52 PM

The guy with a multiple-antenna array atop a 60-foot tower is clearly a DXer, and so his gear would not be protected under OTARD.

How about if he puts a big green mirror ball on top of it and calls it a lawn ornament?

Falcon_77

09-23-08, 08:04 PM

How about if he puts a big green mirror ball on top of it and calls it a lawn ornament?

Works for me! :D

If only....

EscapeVelocity

09-23-08, 10:08 PM

That "wedge VHF" combo antenna is neat!

spokybob

09-24-08, 03:32 PM

Is anyone familiar with this antenna? I spotted 2 when driving in a rural area about 50 miles from the towers.
http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q297/spokybob/IMG_4588.jpgThank you Goldrich: I drove over to Muscatine IA last evening, (for a delicious sundae at Culvers). The new Menards store has one displayed. Yep its the one in the pic. Their stock #3553600. The young man responded that a customer was very pleased with it. Menards is sold out and he thinks they will not restock this part number. He also thinks Phillips will make or might make a smaller but similar design. The price tag said $55.

Neil L

09-24-08, 11:41 PM

Lowe's carries a Phillips branded antenna that looks just like that wedge shaped thing. Price at $129 IIRC (been several weeks since I saw one in the store).

BTW, I've been seeing several around my area. Probably because it is just about the only thing other than Radio Shack one can purchase locally.

What is the design goal with the wedge shape? Does it offer any advantages over the usual log periodic array?

holl_ands

09-25-08, 02:56 AM

What is the design goal with the wedge shape?
Does it offer any advantages over the usual log periodic array?
Same question was answered in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14731809

schu132

09-25-08, 01:36 PM

here is my tvfool plot
120429
I live in a ground level apartment with a balcony I don't think my landlord would let me put in anything bigger than my cm4228

I think I'll get the Antennacraft Y5-7-13. How effective would it be for VHF high without line of sight to the tower? I would mount it outside on a balcony about 7 feet off the ground with a very short coax run.
thanks

Neil L

09-26-08, 08:48 AM

Same question was answered in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14731809Thanks for the link. I would have never thought to look in the "How to build a UHF antenna" thread for info on this antenna.

PA_MainyYak

09-27-08, 01:06 PM

I think I'll get the Antennacraft Y5-7-13. How effective would it be for VHF high without line of sight to the tower? I would mount it outside on a balcony about 7 feet off the ground with a very short coax run.
thanks

Go to TV Fool (http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1) and run the signal tool using your address or GPS coordinates. This will provide you with the information you seek.

jstachowiak

09-29-08, 07:41 PM

Hi, hope someone can help.

Di* Network HD receiver, two flat screens, 13.5 miles from antenna farm all in the same direction and all UHF except two, ABC and NBC in flat Jacksonville, FL. DB2 UHF antenna in attic about 18 feet above ground with splitter and two 50 foot RG6 cable runs to each TV.

All UHF stations come in 93 to 100%. I pick up each VHF at 63 to 68% and they drop occasionally.

When I disconnect the splitter and connect the antenna directly to one TV I lose the VHF signals. It appears the splitter improves the VHF reception.

I would like to improve the VHF reception and get it to 80%, what can I do? Will a DB4 improve the signal or should I venture into VHF/UHF antenna territory with a 80" Rat Shack antenna they have down the street?

Note I bought the Terk HDTVo antenna and it did not pick up the VHF at all and the UHF signals were 75%, terrible antenna. :mad:

Mystifying. :confused:

Neil L

09-29-08, 08:46 PM

should I venture into VHF/UHF antenna territoryWell, there is no better way to receive VHF signals than with a VHF antenna. What are the VHF channels? Will they still be VHF next year?

jstachowiak

09-29-08, 09:06 PM

Well, there is no better way to receive VHF signals than with a VHF antenna. What are the VHF channels? Will they still be VHF next year?

Except when it is a Terk HDTVo which doesn't pick up VHF at all.

No news on whether they will change over to UHF, both are owned by same station, one is ABC one is NBC.

Why would the splitter improve the VHF reception? Does the RG6 cable act like an antenna for the VHF signal? It defys everything I have read on these and other forums.

rabbit73

09-29-08, 10:27 PM

--13.5 miles from antenna farm--
When I disconnect the splitter and connect the antenna directly to one TV I lose the VHF signals. It appears the splitter improves the VHF reception.When you remove the splitter you are removing the splitter loss and sending a stronger signal to the single set. Since you are so close to the transmitter you might be overloading the tuner. Try an attenuator in the coax line. If you can somehow borrow a signal level meter, the signal should be between -15 dBmV and +15 dBmV:
www.sencore.com/uploads/files/AchieveGoodHDTV.pdf
If the attenuator helps, you might end up needing a UHF antenna and a VHF antenna with a UHF/VHF combiner (UVSJ) with an attenuator in the VHF line to balance the signal levels and keep them in the optimum range. If you could post your situation from tvfool.com both for now and after the transition we would have a better idea of the signal levels at your location. Select the save option at tvfool to get the results all on one page for each and make them attachments to your post.

dagger666

09-29-08, 10:52 PM

can't they make 1 antenna that does the work for all of these. Ha Ha honeymooners.

You know for a sports writer Ray Barone had a rotten TV in his living room.

rabbit73

09-29-08, 11:09 PM

can't they make 1 antenna that does the work for all of these.
Yeah, that would be nice. Unfortunately we are finding out what the British have learned: digital TV is not as easy to receive as has been advertised:
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttcon.html

Digital Rules

09-29-08, 11:10 PM

.....you might be overloading the tuner. Try an attenuator in the coax line.Or better yet, if you are really close to any FM stations; you may just need an FM trap. Strong FM can wreak havoc on VHF reception; and even UHF if strong enough.

What is your zip code?

jtbell

09-29-08, 11:37 PM

No news on whether they will change over to UHF, both are owned by same station, one is ABC one is NBC.

The ABC is analog 25, digital 10 and the NBC is analog 12, digital 13. Both will remain on their current digital channels after analog shutdown. You'll also have PBS which is currently analog 7, digital 38, which will move digital to 7 after analog shutdown.

jstachowiak

09-30-08, 07:31 AM

Zip code is 32259.

I'm going to try the Terk HDTVo again just to make sure it does not work. I've now got two of them as I was going to put one with each TV instead of splitting the signal. Maybe the first one is defective.

Thanks for the help.

Trial and error with some expert guideance. Thanks.

jstachowiak

09-30-08, 07:33 AM

The ABC is analog 25, digital 10 and the NBC is analog 12, digital 13. Both will remain on their current digital channels after analog shutdown. You'll also have PBS which is currently analog 7, digital 38, which will move digital to 7 after analog shutdown.

So neither NBC or ABC in Jacksonville will move to UHF and will remain VHF Digital?

jtbell

09-30-08, 07:57 AM

Yes, they will both remain on VHF.

Neil L

09-30-08, 08:21 AM

I'm going to try the Terk HDTVo againIt's probably not going to work, unless there is some way to turn it's amplifier off (without just removing power, which would be the same as disconnecting the antenna completely). You don't need an amplified antenna, just a small VHF-hi antenna.

tyromark

09-30-08, 10:22 AM

Could you return those Terk HDTVa antennas and exchange for the non-amplified HDTVi version? I set up my sister at The Beaches area, 32266, with a Terk HDTVi in a very disadvantageous place (right on the floor, pointed through the neighbor's house toward the antenna farm 10 miles away) and it brings in the OTA digitals pretty well.

Falcon_77

09-30-08, 11:15 AM

Try diplexing in a pair of rabbit ears for VHF using a UVSJ. It's cheap to try and may be all you need for VHF.

If that doesn't work and you want a combo antenna for both upper VHF and UHF, something simple like the CM2016 should work:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=CM2016

Falcon_77

09-30-08, 11:35 AM

Yeah, that would be nice. Unfortunately we are finding out what the British have learned: digital TV is not as easy to receive as has been advertised:
www.megalithia.com/elect/aerialsite/dttcon.html

And the UK only has to deal with UHF. However, DVB-T seems to have impulse noise problems, even on UHF. ATSC handles impulse noise better (very few problems on UHF), but it will be interesting to see what happens for stations moving back to upper VHF. I can see plenty of noise on 7-13 at times (and I will have 4 DTV stations there next year), but it looks pristine next to Low-VHF.

The second was just how much impulse interference there was out there, and how maddening the effect was going to be on the DTT signal. Impulse interference is what you get when you turn off a light switch, your boiler cuts in, you neighbour uses his electric lawnmower or the kid across the street fires up his cheap motorbike. All of these have the power to give you a half-second sound and vision freeze on DTT, where on analogue they gave you a fleeting bright horizontal line on a frame or so.

Kelson

09-30-08, 12:54 PM

Can someone (or several) answer a question for me. Is there such a thing as "too strong a digital signal". There is some discussion going on in another AVS forum topic in which some people are seeing poor reception of a channel. They are then reporting that if they put an attenuator on the coax (i.e. using one leg of a simple splitter) or in some cases unscrew the coax so the cable is barely seated, they see a marked improvement in that channels reception (often at the expense of another channel). This doesn't sound right to me so I would appreciate some informed input. Thanks . . .

Splicer010

09-30-08, 01:26 PM

Yes...One can 'overdrive' a receivers input and get a poor...if any...picture...This is just as bad as no reception at all...

If someone must unscrew the cable fitting leaving only the stinger in the TV...they have other problems and the temporary 'fix' I can guarantee will be short lived...

jstachowiak

09-30-08, 02:32 PM

I just ordered two inline FM traps, we'll see if that does anything. All other traps come with an amplifier which I don't need.

The Terk HDTVo comes with an amplifier and the amplifier does have an On/Off switch which made no difference in the signal. There was also no difference in whether the amp was hooked up or not.

So far I've been maintaining the VHF signals with an occasional drop here and there, but liveable. I'll let you know if the traps work at all.

Thanks for the help. :)

electrictroy

09-30-08, 02:56 PM

2 - Antenna's Direct 91XG's
1 - Wineguard High Bander Troy jealous.

Troy want.

;-) - So what's the advantage of placing two 91XG's side-by-side like that? Does it narrow the beam? Or just increase the power? (Also what's a High Bander?)

Splicer010

09-30-08, 03:06 PM

http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HD-1080-HDTV-High-Antenna/dp/B001DFTGQU

Digital Rules

09-30-08, 03:07 PM

I just ordered two inline FM traps, we'll see if that does anything. All other traps come with an amplifier which I don't need.
A single HLSJ will be much more effective than 2 FM traps if you won't be needing any VHF-LO (Channels 2-6)

Falcon_77

09-30-08, 03:29 PM

http://www.amazon.com/Winegard-HD-1080-HDTV-High-Antenna/dp/B001DFTGQU

That's just bad marketing by Winegard. The Winegard HD-1080 is poor performer for 7-13, but it is decent for UHF. Rabbit ears are probably better for VHF.

An often referenced and recommended "high-bander" (7-13 antenna) is the YA-1713. I have one on each coast.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=YA1713

I wish solid-signal would show an accurate picture for it, however. This is what it looks like:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w1713.html

Falcon_77

09-30-08, 03:33 PM

A single HLSJ will be much more effective than 2 FM traps if you won't be needing any VHF-LO (Channels 2-6)

Yes, these are very effective and very inexpensive:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HLSJ

Just terminate the "Lo" side.

rabbit73

09-30-08, 05:33 PM

Or better yet, if you are really close to any FM stations; you may just need an FM trap. Strong FM can wreak havoc on VHF reception; and even UHF if strong enough.

What is your zip code?
fmfool.com shows some very strong signals:
121031

rabbit73

09-30-08, 06:02 PM

Zip code is 32259.
DTV signals now:
121032
DTV signals after transition:
121033

AntAltMike

09-30-08, 06:03 PM

fmfool.com shows some very strong signals:
121031One of the strongest signals in that table is at 89.9 MHz. Most FM traps attenuate about 93-108 MHz, so unless it is one of the less common variety, it will not attenuate that signal at all.

jstachowiak

09-30-08, 06:48 PM

Spec says 88 to 108, we'll see. Yes public TV and FM is very strong signal. Go figure, publc TV has better signal than big networks.

jstachowiak

09-30-08, 07:02 PM

FM Trap Filter spec:
• 5~890 MHz Bandwidth
• 88~108 MHz Notch Filter
• Insertion Loss: -20dB FM, -0.3dB VHF, -0.5dB UHF
• 75Ω F-Type Female × 2 (Input & Output)
• DC Power Pass

jstachowiak

09-30-08, 07:09 PM

http://www.rackmount-devices.com/015-4252.html

jstachowiak

09-30-08, 07:16 PM

one other thing I forgot to add, I have 50 feet of RG-6 cable running from each TV to the splitter and about 3 feet from the splitter to the Antenna. When I mounted the antenna on a horizontal piece of truss support in my attic and had the cables kind of tangled up really did not notice it. When tinkering with the antenna aim I decided to untangle the cables and make sure none were crossing each other, signal seemed to improve with that untangling.

Digital Rules

09-30-08, 08:31 PM

That's just bad marketing by Winegard. The Winegard HD-1080 is poor performer for 7-13,My neighbor just installed the Winegard HD-1080 about 35 feet AGL. It is a very poor performer on VHF(It barely picks up DTV Channel 8 @ only 6 miles away). The UHF is not much better. It only picks up 1 Baltimore DTV UHF station.(1000 kw @ 40 miles away) It doesn't even come close to the performance of the Winegard Ghost Killer antenna that I used to use; right next door.

Digital Rules

09-30-08, 08:53 PM

One of the strongest signals in that table is at 89.9 MHz. Most FM traps attenuate about 93-108 MHz, so unless it is one of the less common variety, it will not attenuate that signal at all.I have a Radio Shack FM trap that looks just like one of those common varieties. It doesn't work near as well as the HLSJ on the lower part of the FM band. Just 1 HLSJ does the trick even with this much FM.

Falcon_77

09-30-08, 09:47 PM

I have a Radio Shack FM trap that looks just like one of those common varieties. It doesn't work near as well as the HLSJ on the lower part of the FM band. Just 1 HLSJ does the trick even with this much FM.

I did some testing with an RS FM trap (it looks just like the link above) vs. the HLSJ and found the RS to be much less effective throughout the FM band. The HLSJ was much better at putting the weaker stations beyond my receiver's threshold (by about 10dB). The strongest FM signal I have is -41dBm, according to FM Fool, but I use the built-in FM trap on the 7777 anyway. I now remember that I had problems w/o the trap switched in.

electrictroy

10-01-08, 04:59 AM

An often referenced and recommended "high-bander" (7-13 antenna) is the YA-1713. I have one on each coast. What's a good antenna for receiving channel 6? I continue to question the value of putting out new designs for UHF 69. There are still stations broadcasting on channels 52-69 on the low-power licenses, and also in Canada and Mexico with full-power licenses.

.

jstachowiak

10-01-08, 07:13 AM

ziggy29

10-01-08, 08:23 AM

With all the discussion about FM traps -- how do you know if using one will help your reception? I don't *think* I see any need for one in my setup, but I want to make sure I'm not compromising signal quality by not using one. Does it depend on what RF channels I'm trying to get (assuming VHF is more affected)?

My FMFool results show the strongest FM signals are -37 dBm to -41 dBm for what it's worth. Many of the FM stations clustered in the direction the antennas are facing are in the -73 to -76 range, which I doubt are causing too much trouble.

jstachowiak

10-01-08, 09:03 AM

At about $3 each I feel it is worth the try to see if anything improves. What ever the results I will report such here. The beauty of the Satellite receivers is they have a % meter of signal strength so I will see immediately if there is any improvement. As well, NBC channel 13 on the VHF band is the problem station that drops sometimes and has audio drops.

I'll let you know.

Falcon_77

10-01-08, 11:24 AM

On the HLSJ you connect the antenna lead to the combined side and the TV lead to the VHF High side and then it filters out the low VHF stations and all FM? Essentially hooked up backwards?

Connect an upper VHF antenna to the "HI" side and run the line output to the VHF side of a UVSJ to combine with your UHF antenna (UHF side). Then run the UVSJ line to the TV, etc.

If the HLSJ passes UHF on the high-side as well it would be simpler, but I don't remember trying that. Can someone confirm? I can test tonight if not.

Falcon_77

10-01-08, 11:26 AM

What's a good antenna for receiving channel 6?

I use this one.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y5-2-6

It is ok and it fits in my attic. Certainly much better than rabbit ears, especially for 2-4 where many rabbit ears are too short to receive properly.

300ohm

10-01-08, 12:32 PM

What's a good antenna for receiving channel 6? There are still stations broadcasting on channels 52-69 on the low-power licenses, and also in Canada and Mexico with full-power licenses.

.
Yeah, but they too will be going away in about 2011. There's probably enough old stock to cover that demand until then. I think if they were smart, they would release optimized designs for the new band now.

On Ken Nists site, comparing some commercially available antennas, the Winegard YA-1026 (probably superceded by now) shows the highest net gain for channel 6.

Digital Rules

10-01-08, 01:44 PM

http://www.rackmount-devices.com/images/013-7002.gif

On the HLSJ you connect the antenna lead to the combined side and the TV lead to the VHF High side and then it filters out the low VHF stations and all FM? Essentially hooked up backwards?

JeffIve tried it both ways. With a marginal signal; the best results are obtained with the antenna hooked to the "HI" and the TV hooked to the "OUT/IN" terminal. Terminating the unused "LO" didn't seem to make a difference; but I always do it anyway.

Digital Rules

10-01-08, 01:50 PM

If the HLSJ passes UHF on the high-side as well it would be simpler, but I don't remember trying that. Can someone confirm? I can test tonight if not. The HLSJ passes UHF on the "HI" side only up to 600 MHZ.(According to the specs from Holland) That's not high enough to get all of the channels you'll need. Channel 52 is already somewhere in the 700 MHZ frequencies.

Tobias Ziegler

10-01-08, 02:08 PM

I use this one.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y5-2-6

It is ok and it fits in my attic. Certainly much better than rabbit ears, especially for 2-4 where many rabbit ears are too short to receive properly.

Interesting page there on the link.

Tell me, are you able to receive UHF channels from 80 miles on this Lowband VHF antenna like the page indicates? :rolleyes:

jstachowiak

10-01-08, 03:01 PM

My original problem is that I do not have a VHF antenna and I'm picking up VHF on a DB2 UHF antenna. What I am trying to do now is improve that signal. So I am guessing that the FM traps are my best bet at this point.

I'll try both but I don't want to do anything to my UHF signal which is 100% presently.

Jeff

Falcon_77

10-01-08, 03:19 PM

Tell me, are you able to receive UHF channels from 80 miles on this Lowband VHF antenna like the page indicates? :rolleyes:

I can try it for laughs, out to 51 miles. I might get a couple. I sent them a note to fix this. I didn't even see that before, but then I usually don't bother looking at range figures.

jstachowiak

10-01-08, 05:15 PM

Ive tried it both ways. With a marginal signal; the best results are obtained with the antenna hooked to the "HI" and the TV hooked to the "OUT/IN" terminal. Terminating the unused "LO" didn't seem to make a difference; but I always do it anyway.

How do you terminate the unused LO side?

Jeff

Don_M

10-01-08, 06:04 PM

How do you terminate the unused LO side?

With one of these (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=TT-5900).

300ohm

10-02-08, 12:06 PM

My FMFool results show the strongest FM signals are -37 dBm to -41 dBm for what it's worth. Many of the FM stations clustered in the direction the antennas are facing are in the -73 to -76 range, which I doubt are causing too much trouble

I would say youre fine without an FM trap. Unlike me, I have a powerful FM station less than a mile away. Fortunately, its 90 degrees from my main group of TV stations I want. Decades ago, it used to cause me problems I couldnt even get rid of with special traps, but they seemed to have done something and I dont get much interference from it anymore.

My original problem is that I do not have a VHF antenna and I'm picking up VHF on a DB2 UHF antenna. What I am trying to do now is improve that signal. So I am guessing that the FM traps are my best bet at this point.

One possible way of increasing the VHF gain on the DB2 is to put a large reflector on it. Try attaching a 20 inch high by 40 inch wide reflector onto the existing one.

vickyg2003

10-02-08, 05:06 PM

Can someone give me an idea of what antenna I should buy?
I'm moving to Troy, MI next week, from IL and I'm going to need to put up an antenna in the attic.

I've been trying to find which Antenna to buy. I've talked to people in the area, but nobody is using OTA signals. It looks like my channels are going to be in many directions. according to AntennaWeb.ORG

direction, distance, color, uhf/vhf network
184 11.4, yellow UHF MNT
131 19 blue UHF ION
206 10.4 yellow UHF ABC
194 9.1 yellow UHF NBC
184 10.6 yellow UHF CBS
184 10.6 yellow UHF FOX
184 10.6 yellow Vhf FOX 7 POST TRANSITION!!!
223 11 yellow UHF CW
184 11.4 yellow UHF PBS DETROIT

I'd really miss my Ion or my CW, if I had to do without them.

So what do I do for an antenna when everything is going in multiple directions like this?

Falcon_77

10-02-08, 08:13 PM

With one of these (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=TT-5900).

Is that better than the ones that are found in local stores such as Fry's where I can get several for cheap? The ones are use look like these:

http://www.smarthome.com/7808/75-Ohm-Terminator-20-Pack/p.aspx

Falcon_77

10-02-08, 08:23 PM

I ran some tests with my Tru-Spec HLSJ last night.

The executive summary is that the HLSJ had a negligible affect on UHF performance when UHF was connected to the "HI" side. In other words, it should work for a VHF/UHF combo when Lo-VHF and FM aren't desired.

Attached are the test results along with other tests I did for fun.

1) Normal reception: 4228 & 1713/5-2-6 (HLSJ) into a 7777, UHF and VHF respectively.
2) 4228 into "HI" on the HLSJ and into UHF on the 7777
3) Y5-2-6 directly into the UHF side of the 7777 - out of band galore, read: diplexers are needed
4) YA1713 directly into the UHF side of the 7777 - some out of band, but not nearly as much
5) Y5-2-6 into the "HI" side of the HLSJ and then into VHF. I am questioning the AGC results on the analog side as the picture quality suffered greatly when I did this, but the AGC didn't move much.

The 2nd column was me forgetting to plug the PIM back in after round 1. It gives one an idea just how much the signal is attenuated with an un-powered pre-amp. It is otherwise the same physical set-up as 2.

Falcon_77

10-02-08, 08:53 PM

I'd really miss my Ion or my CW, if I had to do without them.

So what do I do for an antenna when everything is going in multiple directions like this?

Would you be satisfied with just getting the Detroit stations? If not, you will want to invest in a rotor.

Also, while WPXD (ion) is currently non-co-located, they have a petition to move closer to Detroit (appears the be on the WKBD tower, if granted). WKBD (CW) also has an application pending for more power with a non-directional pattern. They currently have 59kW with a directional pattern.

UHF stations should be relatively easy unless you want to try markets other than Detroit. However, with WJBK going to VHF 7, it could be a bit problematic. I think I would go with a CM4221 for an attic install, but you will probably need to add a VHF antenna down the road. I think the larger CM4228, while it does a better job for upper VHF, is going to be too directional. Even the co-located Detroit stations are about 7 miles apart and you are close.

AntAltMike

10-02-08, 09:22 PM

Tonight, I compared UHF losses incurred through a cheapo "Tru Spec HLSJ" an a Blonder Tongue vertical port, very expensive, solder backed U/V diplexer, using an eighteen channel balanced headend that I had constricuted as asignal source, and using a Blonder Tongue BTDPA-4 meter which resolves to a tenth of a dB.

The tru spec lost an average of about half a dB more than the Blonder Tongue but it varied throughout the band. Strangely, they both lost the same amount on channel 59, but the Tru Spec lost about a dB and a half more at channel 50.

I think nothing about the extra dB of UHF loss that I MIGHT incur with the dime store HLSJ diplexer bersus a pricey Blonder Tongue UVSJ. A lot of you don't understand how finicky RF signals are. I could take another unit of the same Tru Spec HLSJ and the frequencies at which it matched the performance of the Blonder Tongue UVSJ and the frequencies at which it lost a dB or two more would differ.

ThoraX695

10-02-08, 11:29 PM

Were there any significant improvements in signal quality by using the HLSJ to filter out Low-VHF through FM? I'm assuming you had the FM trap on the CM7777 set to "out" when you ran your tests too.

paris_tn

10-03-08, 12:10 AM

I use this one.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y5-2-6

It is ok and it fits in my attic. Certainly much better than rabbit ears, especially for 2-4 where many rabbit ears are too short to receive properly.

What kind of range are you getting for low vhf with your AntennaCraft Y5-2-6?

Falcon_77

10-03-08, 10:31 AM

Were there any significant improvements in signal quality by using the HLSJ to filter out Low-VHF through FM? I'm assuming you had the FM trap on the CM7777 set to "out" when you ran your tests too.

I have the CM7777 set to separate VHF and UHF inputs right now, so no I didn't experiment with the FM trap. I was only testing the UHF loss through the HLSJ.

I will try to find time to do this over the weekend (set it to combined and try w/ and w/o the FM trap).

Falcon_77

10-03-08, 10:35 AM

What kind of range are you getting for low vhf with your AntennaCraft Y5-2-6?

51 miles is the distance to all the local stations. I don't have any stations beyond that range that I can realistically acquire (outside of the LA area). However, as the Low-VHF locals are analog, it is hard to say how effective it would be for DTV. It might work, but I would expect quite a few drop-outs considering the frequency of visible noise on analog.

gcd0865

10-03-08, 11:55 AM

vickyg2003:

I'm in the same area, with a CM4228 on a rotor in my attic. All of the Detroit digital stations except for Ion (and an independent 38.1/39 that you didn't mention) come in just fine with the 4228 pointed in a generally south-southwest direction. Since analog 7 (ABC) comes in perfectly with the 4228, I'd expect digital Fox 7 (starting next Feb.) to be fine also.

Ion has two stations in our area - 31 analog from Ann Arbor (will become 33 digital) and a low-power 48 analog translator from the east side of Detroit. Both come in about a 7 out of 10 for me in analog when I rotate the antenna accordingly, but neither is very good when the antenna is pointed toward the other Detroit stations. I haven't seen either of these stations in digital yet - they might not yet be on in digital form (I haven't really searched for their digital channels yet). If 31/33 moves closer to the other Detroit towers, then no problem there. If not, you'd need either a rotor or a second fixed antenna pointed toward Ion, connected by a Jointenna. 38.1/39 is also over on the east side of town, so you'd probably need a rotor or yet another antenna (like a 4221) on a Jointenna if you wanted that one.

Assuming that a 4228 would fit through your attic opening, I would recommend it over the 4221 because it is good for VHF-high (7-13) as well, whereas the 4221 is not. Also, the extra gain of the 4228 over the 4221 is better for Ion, at least in analog right now.

Also, when rotating the antenna to the northwest, my 4228 also gets 28.1/52 (PBS) Flint perfectly all the time, and 5.1/22 (CBS) Bay City, 12.1/36 (ABC) Flint, 25.1/30 (NBC) Saginaw, and occasionally 66.1/16 (Fox) Flint, better at night, not so great in the daytime. The 4228 will also occasionally pick up one or two Toledo digital stations late at night, which for me are exactly in-line with the Detroit towers.

I also have a separate VHF antenna ready for after next Feb. 17, when all the channel changes are made (Flint 12.1/36 goes back to 12 and Toledo 11.1 and 13.1 go back to 11 and 13); then, we'll have a better idea of what will come in permanently around here.

Hope this is helpful...

300ohm

10-03-08, 12:00 PM

I think nothing about the extra dB of UHF loss that I MIGHT incur with the dime store HLSJ diplexer bersus a pricey Blonder Tongue UVSJ. A lot of you don't understand how finicky RF signals are. I could take another unit of the same Tru Spec HLSJ and the frequencies at which it matched the performance of the Blonder Tongue UVSJ and the frequencies at which it lost a dB or two more would differ.

Yes, high frequency RF signals are very finicky, and your analysis shows how important it is for factories to test stuff before sending it out. The main problem with the cheap stuff is that it isnt tested/inspected, so results will vary with each unit.

AntAltMike

10-03-08, 02:34 PM

...The main problem with the cheap stuff is that it isnt tested/inspected, so results will vary with each unit.

But that variation isn't a "problem" for the applications that most professionals use them in. Holland, Pico and Blonder Tongue are not marketing to hobbiests. They have been selling to commercial antenna service companies, and we rarely care about the slight variation in frequency response found in the cheaper products, which is why almost none of us buy Blonder Tongue or Scientific Atlanta.

But while I'm at it, I will reiterate for those who may have missed it several pages ago in this thread, there is no reason whatsoever for anyone to believe or even suspect that a Holland combiner with a sales literature insertion loss figure of 0.7 dB has any more loss than the Pico or Tru Spec component with a published loss figure of 0.5 dB. These are not laboratory figures. They are not engineering figures. They are sales literature figures that give a system designer a rough idea how to ballpark the likely loss incurred by working them into a system. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the Pico and Holland HLSJs come off the same production line and just have different brand labels stuck on them.

Digital Rules

10-03-08, 02:48 PM

The "Holland" HLSJ specs list the limit as 600 MHZ for the "HI" output. Do you know if this is correct, or is it OK for use up to UHF channel 69?

Thanks, Glen

Falcon_77

10-03-08, 03:29 PM

The "Holland" HLSJ specs list the limit as 600 MHZ for the "HI" output. Do you know if this is correct, or is it OK for use up to UHF channel 69?

I didn't have any problems with the Pico Macom Tru-Spec (see the above results). I thought my HLSJ was a Holland like my UVSJ's, but it is not. If someone can re-run for a Holland I would be curious to see if the results are any different.

AntAltMike

10-03-08, 05:41 PM

I don 't have any Holland HLSJs to test and I only buy from Holland maybe once a year because they are on the opposite coast and I can buy similar products on the easy coast with ground arriving the next day, but if anyone puts one in an envelope and sends it to me, I'll test it for them using my cable TV spectrum as a signal source.

jstachowiak

10-04-08, 11:22 AM

I bought a set of $7.99 rabbit ears to put in the attic with an RS $15 Gold VHF/UHF combiner. I connected the rabbit ears first without the combiner and found out the reception was the same as the DB2 UHF antenna, UHF stations came in great VHF only so, so at about 63% on the Dish box indicator. When I combined the two with the RS combiner signal dropped off significantly on both UHF and VHF, VHF would not come in at all. I tried a plain old splitter and it worked better but still not great. So RS combiner is worthless. :(

In looking at this guys website http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html about aiming rabbit ears and antenna reflectors I made an aluminum foil reflector out of the DB2 box and placed it behind the DB2 antenna about 28 inches behind the bow tie on the DB2 antenna. Signal improved to about 70% on the VHF side. With no drops so far. :)

Rabbit ears are set up horizontal at 28" in length tip to tip to pick up channels 10 and 13 (12.1) per Kyes website. I tried several other configurations and this works best.

I should get the FM trap today in the mail so we'll see if that does anything. I won't get the HLSJ till next week.

If that doesn't work I guess I will try an amplifier to improve the VHF side.

Digital Rules

10-04-08, 12:06 PM

The item you bought at Radio Shack is really just a conventional 2-way spliiter/combiner. You really need a UVSJ combiner.(and only about 4.00 plus shipping)

jstachowiak

10-04-08, 12:16 PM

FM Traps, HLSJ's both ruin the VHF signals. I got two of each and tried them all in every combination and they filter out the VHF signal all together.

The $7.99 rabbit ears (in the attic set at horizontal at 28" tip to tip) with no UHF side at all and no filters picks up everything better than the DB2. I just cannot split the signal.

So I'll return the RS combiner and get another set of rabbit ears for the other TV and that should solve my problems.

About $120 invested when all I needed was two rabbit ears for $16 total. :mad:

Rabbit ears beats out the DB2 ($40) and the Terk HDTVo ($80).

Go figure.

jstachowiak

10-04-08, 12:17 PM

The item you bought at Radio Shack is really just a conventional 2-way spliiter/combiner. You really need a UVSJ combiner.(and only about 4.00 plus shipping)

I would agree but some old splitters I have work, this RS combiner does not.

ThoraX695

10-04-08, 01:27 PM

I have the CM7777 set to separate VHF and UHF inputs right now, so no I didn't experiment with the FM trap. I was only testing the UHF loss through the HLSJ.

I will try to find time to do this over the weekend (set it to combined and try w/ and w/o the FM trap).

OK. I remember reading somewhere that someone suggested that an HLSJ be used to filter out both Low-VHF and FM in order to reduce interference to (at least) High-VHF. Your initial tests didn't seem to improve (or impact) the quality of the UHF signals. It's unfortunate that you don't have any stations broadcasting on High-VHF.

jstachowiak

10-04-08, 02:05 PM

OK. I remember reading somewhere that someone suggested that an HLSJ be used to filter out both Low-VHF and FM in order to reduce interference to (at least) High-VHF. Your initial tests didn't seem to improve (or impact) the quality of the UHF signals. It's unfortunate that you don't have any stations broadcasting on High-VHF.

I do, both NBC channel 13 DT and ABC channel 10 DT are hi VHF. We have no VHF stations below channel 10.

I returned the RS combiner and got the $11.99 UHF/VHF rabbit ears and they are now in the attic with no filters and the VHF signal is 75% the highest I've been able to get. UHF dropped to 80% to 90% from 100% but there is no pixelation. We'll see how it reads tonite. Signals seem better in the evenings.

jstachowiak

10-04-08, 11:23 PM

Channel 13 NBC DT signal read 81-83% tonite, channel 10 ABC read 93% on the RS $11.99 rabbit ears in the attic. :)

Falcon_77

10-05-08, 10:27 AM

OK. I remember reading somewhere that someone suggested that an HLSJ be used to filter out both Low-VHF and FM in order to reduce interference to (at least) High-VHF. Your initial tests didn't seem to improve (or impact) the quality of the UHF signals. It's unfortunate that you don't have any stations broadcasting on High-VHF.

We do have 4 analog locals on 7-13 and they work just fine going through the HI side of the HLSJ. I was trying to see if the same HLSJ could be used in a upper VHF/UHF combo system (and not significantly degrade UHF) and the answer, in my case, was yes.

Digital Rules

10-05-08, 11:00 AM

I was trying to see if the same HLSJ could be used in a upper VHF/UHF combo system (and not significantly degrade UHF) and the answer, in my case, was yes. Falcon 77,

My testing yielded the same results as yours. I just tried the Pico HLSJ with an extremely weak analog channel 68; and there is no UHF degredation whatsoever using the HI output.

jstachowiak

10-05-08, 04:45 PM

One more experiment. I added the UHF DB2 antenna to the RS rabbit ears with a Belkin garden variety splitter and the UHF signals are now back to where they were when the UHF DB2 antenna was alone but my rabbit ears VHF signals are all the same at 80+%. No filters or HLSJ involved.

Jeff

ThoraX695

10-05-08, 09:15 PM

Oops. I meant to say "It's unfortunate that you don't have any stations broadcasting digitally on High-VHF." (Unless your analog tuner can give you a quantitative reading for analog signal quality.)

In my market, we'll only have High-VHF and UHF stations after analog shutoff. So would filtering my antenna (High-VHF/UHF combo) through an HLSJ still make sense? (And will it double as an FM trap since FM stations are right after the end of Low-VHF?)

cyberodie

10-05-08, 10:40 PM

moonstar

10-06-08, 03:01 AM

I'm new here but I live in Manhattan, New York, which is actually a bad reception area, 1-2 miles from the transmitter (the Empire State Building) but I'm surrounded by tall structures and helicoptors fly above my building. According to Antennaweb, I am in the Blue and Purple areas. The thing is an indoor antenna is my only option as I do not own the rooftop of the building I live in, which is most likely the case for most of the people here.

I tried two indoor antennas so far: one that came with Pinnacle PCTV (computer TV tuner) and Terik HDTVa Antenna PRO (amplified). I get bad pixelation on my television at times, but in particular, I noticed that Pinnacle's antenna is better for CW11. Terek seems to do better for CBS, NBC, Fox, and ABC especially when the antenna is positioned slightly away from the window.

My biggest problem at this moment is pixelation. How can I reduce it? Is an amplifier (from Radio Shack) going to work? Any suggestion is greatly appreciated. Thanx. :)

electrictroy

10-06-08, 07:50 AM

I use this one. http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y5-2-6 I bought an AntennaCraft but the model number is Y5-6. The antenna looks identical to the image for the Y5-2-6. I don't have any channels 2,3,4,or 5 but if I did, would the Y5-6 antenna receive any of them?

I also bought a Channel Master 1510 (channel 10) yagi. I'm hoping the new 4228HD receives channel 10 so I won't need this yagi, and can sell it to someone else. My current 4228 does not receive channel 10 (WHTM27) from Harrisburg.

Don_M

10-06-08, 02:35 PM

My biggest problem at this moment is pixelation. How can I reduce it? Is an amplifier (from Radio Shack) going to work?

Stacking one amplifier on top of another is very likely to overload the digital tuner, resulting in poorer reception. Even if a second amp doesn't cause overload, it exacerbate the multipath interference you're undoubtedly experiencing. Pixelation is one result of multipath. If getting by the window didn't help and the super won't permit a cable run up to the roof under any circumstance, you're a candidate for broadcast-basic ("lifeline") cable service. Many providers pass digital/HD signals from OTA broadcasters over their systems, so it's worth a phone call to find out. Check the manual to determine whether your Pinnacle DTV stick/card is "clear QAM" capable (current models are), which is the standard used by cable companies. If so, you shouldn't need to rent an outboard set-top box.

Falcon_77

10-06-08, 03:34 PM

In my market, we'll only have High-VHF and UHF stations after analog shutoff. So would filtering my antenna (High-VHF/UHF combo) through an HLSJ still make sense? (And will it double as an FM trap since FM stations are right after the end of Low-VHF?)

You may not need to filter out the other bands, but if you don't want FM or 2-6, using an HLSJ should be more effective than simply using an FM trap.

It makes me wonder when/if we will start seeing new pre-amps for 7-51 only. I am still concerned about new services in the 52-69 overloading my 7777, as well as WSD's.

Falcon_77

10-06-08, 03:52 PM

I bought an AntennaCraft but the model number is Y5-6. The antenna looks identical to the image for the Y5-2-6. I don't have any channels 2,3,4,or 5 but if I did, would the Y5-6 antenna receive any of them?

So, it is a single channel Yagi for 6? If so, perhaps it would be passable for 5, but less so for 2-4. What is the measurement of the widest element?

What stations are you trying to receive with it?

300ohm

10-06-08, 06:57 PM

My biggest problem at this moment is pixelation. How can I reduce it? Is an amplifier (from Radio Shack) going to work? Any suggestion is greatly appreciated. Thanx.

Your biggest problem with all the buildings is mult-path. I would get the $3.95 Radio Shack Classic Bowtie antenna and a balun and about 25ft of RG-6 cable. Then try positioning the antenna in various places around the room until you find the good hot spot.

holl_ands

10-06-08, 07:43 PM

I bought an AntennaCraft but the model number is Y5-6. The antenna looks identical to the image for the Y5-2-6. I don't have any channels 2,3,4,or 5 but if I did, would the Y5-6 antenna receive any of them?

I also bought a Channel Master 1510 (channel 10) yagi. I'm hoping the new 4228HD receives channel 10 so I won't need this yagi, and can sell it to someone else. My current 4228 does not receive channel 10 (WHTM27) from Harrisburg.
Antennacraft Y5-6 is a Single Channel Yagi optimized for CH6:
http://www.vancebaldwin.com/products/?ANT&start=1
Which means the gain is going to be dropping like a rock on
adjacent channels and hardly any gain beyond that.....

Couldn't readily find discontinued Antennacraft specs, but probably has
about 8 MHz bandwidth since it's similar to 5-element BTY-5-LB:
http://www.blondertongue.com/media/pdfs/catalog_classes/reception/bty.pdf

The 5-element BTY-5-LB and 10-element BTY-10-HB antennas should
also be "similiar" to fol. Wade (Delhi) Single Channel Yagis:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/WadeSCY.html
http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/cutchannel.pdf

Falcon_77

10-06-08, 09:26 PM

Installing my first antenna for our cabin and looking for advise for the best antenna. Zip is 56586. Here is a link to the TV Fool report. (As attachment since I can't post a link as a newbie). We sit at the bottom of a hill with trees and the top of the hill to the NW.

I would suggest re-running your TVFool.com plot for a couple reasons:

1) TV Fool underwent major changes yesterday and some of the plots were not accurate for a while.
2) The TV Fool plot shown is for "street level" resolution. Try using coordinates instead for a more accurate reading.

However, it appears that it will be a difficult spot, requiring a rotor and some of the best antennas available to get more than a few channels. Fox (KVRR) is quite strong and appears to be easy to receive, but the problem is that it's likely to overload a pre-amp when you point the antenna in that direction.

PCTools

10-07-08, 06:54 AM

1) Will tighten the beamwith.
2) Will increase gain. On paper, it will yield 3dB. In the real world, I would say about 1.5dB with splitter loss. Also, you have to make sure the antennas are aligned "perfect."
3) High bander = Antenna tuned for channels 7 - 13. The Funke is a superior antenna taht can be purchased from a member on this site.

Troy jealous.

Troy want.

;-) - So what's the advantage of placing two 91XG's side-by-side like that? Does it narrow the beam? Or just increase the power? (Also what's a High Bander?)

electrictroy

10-07-08, 07:49 AM

Antennacraft Y5-6 is a Single Channel Yagi optimized for CH6, which means the gain is going to be dropping like a rock on adjacent channels and hardly any gain beyond that..... That's okay, because I don't have anything lower than 6. I was just curious.

My CM4228 doesn't handle VHF very well (for example: does not get 10-DT from 40 miles away). What can I do to make it work better?

Digital Rules

10-07-08, 09:56 AM

That's okay, because I don't have anything lower than 6. I was just curious.

My CM4228 doesn't handle VHF very well (for example: does not get 10-DT from 40 miles away). What can I do to make it work better?You'll need a dedicated VHF-HI, or a channel 10 specific antenna. WHTM has a directional antenna pattern that favors areas to the west of Harrisburg.

cyberodie

10-07-08, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by cyberodie
Installing my first antenna for our cabin and looking for advise for the best antenna. Zip is 56586. Here is a link to the TV Fool report. (As attachment since I can't post a link as a newbie). We sit at the bottom of a hill with trees and the top of the hill to the NW.

I would suggest re-running your TVFool.com plot for a couple reasons:

1) TV Fool underwent major changes yesterday and some of the plots were not accurate for a while.
2) The TV Fool plot shown is for "street level" resolution. Try using coordinates instead for a more accurate reading.

However, it appears that it will be a difficult spot, requiring a rotor and some of the best antennas available to get more than a few channels. Fox (KVRR) is quite strong and appears to be easy to receive, but the problem is that it's likely to overload a pre-amp when you point the antenna in that direction.

Thanks for looking at it for me Here is the new TV Fool report using coordinates.

philherz

10-07-08, 05:08 PM

For the last 4 weeks, my parents have been using a Radio Shack 15-1878 to pick up the top 6 channels at their apartment as listed in the tvfool printout. (Their apartment is in a complex and there's a highway noise barrier close by.)

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103916&cp=

Used trial and error to get it to work...TV tuner doesn't show signal strength.

The hardest to get is WKBW and it worked great until it didn't come in last night and my father "adjusted" the antenna and really screwed it royal!

Thanks!!

We find that the circular part of the antenna works best when it lays almost horizontal with the table it's on.

I've been following this thread for 2 months but I'm totally lost! Should I try to add a 2nd antenna just to get WKBW or replace the 15-1878??? (Outdoor antenna is not a possibility)

http://www.discountsoccerjerseys.com/WG/14068_Zip_Code.png

ThoraX695

10-07-08, 06:33 PM

You may not need to filter out the other bands, but if you don't want FM or 2-6, using an HLSJ should be more effective than simply using an FM trap.

It makes me wonder when/if we will start seeing new pre-amps for 7-51 only. I am still concerned about new services in the 52-69 overloading my 7777, as well as WSD's.

OK. Thanks for the info. FM Fool says that my strongest FM station is 6 miles away at -35.9 dBm, so my FM trap is set in. (I know they changed TV Fool yesterday or the day before. I don't know if FM Fool has been changed too.)

And I was thinking the same thing about filters on pre-amps. Perhaps we'll see a "Hi-VHF/FM In" trap setting in addition to "FM (only) In" and "Out". Or go from using traps to bandpass filters since most the majority of the markets will need only UHF or UHF and High-VHF.

PCTools

10-08-08, 06:50 AM

Radio Shack = Garbage

philherz

10-08-08, 10:44 AM

Radio Shack = Garbage

I know, but I asked in quite a few forums including my local Buffalo one and never got any real help what to buy.

Soooo, I went to radio Shack because at least there I could try 3 out and return whatever didn't work.

My parents are in their late 80's and all I want to do is get 5 channels OTA on the new HDTV I bought them for their 65th (!!!) Anniversary.

Can't someone help me????

Please see post #8062

jcg

10-08-08, 10:47 AM

I currently have a CM4228 and a CM7777 preamp to get OTA HD in Pleasanton, CA from the Sutro tower in SF. Just found out that ABC (KGO) is moving from ch 24 to channel 7 on Feb 17th 2009. So my question is is there a combination antenna that will do VHF (ch 7 and up) AND UHF, or is the only option 2 antennas? Also I went to solidsignal and they show the CM4228 is discontinued and the new model is a CM4228-HD. Anyone know if this new model is better that the old one? Or is the CM4228 still considered the best UHF antenna?

jcg

Falcon_77

10-08-08, 11:39 AM

Thanks for looking at it for me Here is the new TV Fool report using coordinates.

Thanks for the updated plot. It looks like you will need to go with a rooftop, outdoor antenna. Unless there is something on the channel 2 translator that you want to watch and since KDLO appears to be out of the range of reliability, a 7-51/69 antenna, with a rotor and possibly a pre-amp will be needed.

Channel Master is coming out with some new models soon, but for right now, the following Winegard antenna would be something to consider.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HD7698P

If you are looking for an attic mount, the CM4228 may get it done for UHF, but attic mounts are difficult for a VHF antenna that may need to be turned.

Dan Kolton

10-08-08, 04:09 PM

I know, but I asked in quite a few forums including my local Buffalo one and never got any real help what to buy.

Soooo, I went to radio Shack because at least there I could try 3 out and return whatever didn't work.

My parents are in their late 80's and all I want to do is get 5 channels OTA on the new HDTV I bought them for their 65th (!!!) Anniversary.

Can't someone help me????

Please see post #8062

I've had good luck with a Zenith Silver Sensor (also marketed under other names). Bought mine from Amazon. I suspect a DB2 from www.antennasdirect.com might also do the job at a higher cost (they have people who can advise you). I'm far from an expert. I've been led to believe that RatShack antennas are to be avoided.

philherz

10-08-08, 09:31 PM

I've had good luck with a Zenith Silver Sensor (also marketed under other names). Bought mine from Amazon. I suspect a DB2 from www.antennasdirect.com might also do the job at a higher cost (they have people who can advise you). I'm far from an expert. I've been led to believe that RatShack antennas are to be avoided.

3 months ago I did a favor for someone without a computer and bought a Silver Sensor for him and wish I could borrow it back for a quick test.

QUESTION: If I buy another one and it works great, we're gold.

If it's too directional and picks up the problem station OK but fails on the rest that are in a different direction without moving it, do I get my old A-B switch and have them keep switching back and forth between the Radio Shack and the Silver Sensor??

Do my parents have to keep moving the Silver Sensor to different locations?

Is there a way to hook both up at the same time?

(I'm sure this has been covered, but I get totally lost when you guys who really know this stuff get too technical...sorry)

Arkyman

10-08-08, 10:20 PM

Well, I decided to drag my old CM Quantum 1160a out of retirement this afternoon and put it up at my shop so I could watch tv while I work on things. Man the thing was filthy, I'd had it in the top of another little 16x12 shop I have, the dirt dobbers, spiders and everything else just had a field day with it. I washed her off good with a water hose, looked a lot better, probably will help it perform a little better also. It was in worse shape than I remembered. Besides a slighty bent boom, it also had at least 5-6 broken elements that I had to "Farmer Engineer";) back together. I dont know if its because the thing is 14 years old, the amp is weak or both, but it doesnt peform quite as well on the broad spetrum as my 3671 and 8200. But the thing is old and kind of messed up somewhat. Anyway, I hooked it up to my old Mitsubishi 65" 16x9 HD monitor. It only has an NTSC tuner, no ATSC. So, I hooked it up to one of the insignia STB's that converts DTV to analog. Even so, it looks way better than the Analog did when I first hooked it straight to the tv. Another factor in the Quantums reception could be the location. My shop is about 100 feet to the East of my home, I have never had an antenna there before so I didnt know what to really expect at that location. It locks 4.1 KARK and 11.1 THV really well. 16.1 KLRT and 38.1 KASN lock but the signal is erratic and it drops a lot. 42.1 KWCRAP is a no go. On the FS side, 13.1 KAFT and 40.1 KHBS are really strong, but 18.1 KFSM is weak and wont lock. All in all, for the shop, I'm pretty happy with the set up. I'd have to say at this point, the CM3671 and Winegard 8200 definitely lock onto channels easier than the 14 yr old beat up weak amped Quantum. However, I'd love to see a comparison between all 3 of these if the Quantum was brand new, that my friends might be a whole different story, at one time I'd say it had twice the performance as what I seen out of it today. The 1160a when I first got it would bring ch 42 analog in almost as clear as 4, 7, 11 and 16 which were comparable to my C-bands PQ. Today on analog, 42 looked like crap ,very snowy, watchable but most of us wouldnt looking like that. So the Quantum has seen its better days. I also noticed today that it is much more directional than the 3671 and 8200. That can be good and bad, in my case its bad because 16 and 38 are offset a bit from 4 and 11. I like finding the hot spot where I get them all in one position, wasnt happening with the 1160a, that booger has and eye on it and you've got to really aim it. In the old days of analog, that is why this anteanna performed so well when new, it did not accept interference like multipath or ghosting at all. But, like I said, the location is also different, If I had put it back in its original location on my home roof, it might have out performed the other two ants. I tell ya fellas, all 3 are BIG HUGE ANTENNAS...and when your doing it all by yourself it'll wear you out. It would be fun to get all 3 up in similar locations and run comparison tests to see which one rises to the top. From my experience with these 3 antennas, I can draw a few conclusions, at least for my location.

The Quantum 1160a when new, is probably the best performer, however the on board amp 0100C I believe has lower gain and a higher noise rating than the CM7777 preamp. That can be a difference in an area like mine. But the Quantum seems more directional, has a "HOT BOOM" and the amp is built right into the terminals for minimal db loss in transferring signal to Coax to power supply. VHF is hot on the Quantum, UHF is good at 16, weaker at 38 and stronger at 42 when NEW, not when its 14 yrs old like mine.

The CM3671 seems to be a monster on VHF, really strong readings, UHF is pretty darn good as well. Its not as directional as the 1160a but in a way thats a good thing, it still rejects all the annoyances that can occur. I'd say as a comparison between the ants I have and the conditions they are in, the 3671 is a bit better than the Quantum on the UHF side.

The Winegard HD8200U seems to be the monster on UHF. I did not see much improvement on it with readings from LR vs the 3671, however, it smoked the 3671 on uhf readings from Fort Smith. I seen meter readings jump as much as 20 points, that is a HUGE difference. The UHF on the 8200 is the hottest I've seen from any antenna, it even out performs the Winegard PR9032 (114" yagi) and the CM4228 that I have amped up with another CM7777 amp. For some reason, Broadband antennas get higher readings on both bands at my location than single band antennas do. VHF on the 8200 is slightly weaker than the 3761 and considerably weaker than the Quantum 1160a. But, we are talking readings like KARK 4.1 CM1160a = 90%....CM3671 = 87%.......Winegard 8200U = 81%. So as you can see, even though it is the weakest of the 3 on VHF at my location, it really doesn't matter because 81% is still a very reliable signal.

Sorry for rambling so much guys, just felt like sharing some of this info, maybe someone can find some use out of it. I would also be glad to answer any questions any of you might have about these particular ants if I can. All in all, I've been enjoying myself lately with all the antenna swapping and experimenting I've been doing. Its a lot of fun to me, it can be back breaking work at times in certain situations but I have a farm so whats new:D

Digital Rules

10-09-08, 01:31 PM

Didn't you say earlier that you also tried the 91-XG? If so, how did it compare with the 8200?

Dan Kolton

10-09-08, 03:54 PM

philherz,
Any of those scenarios may turn out to be the case. I've never used one, but people talk about using a "combiner". If necessary, try a search on that. You still might be ahead to talk to an expert at an antenna vendor.

300ohm

10-09-08, 06:43 PM

Radio Shack = Garbage

Correction, Radio Shack = Ridiculously Overpriced Garbage.

Don_M

10-09-08, 07:14 PM

If it's too directional and picks up the problem station OK but fails on the rest that are in a different direction without moving it, do I get my old A-B switch and have them keep switching back and forth between the Radio Shack and the Silver Sensor??

An A/B switch is usually the best way to go. You can try to combine the antennas through a reversed splitter and not harm anything, but combined antennas are highly likely to "fight" each other instead of boosting the signals.

Arkyman

10-10-08, 12:08 AM

Didn't you say earlier that you also tried the 91-XG? If so, how did it compare with the 8200?

I cut my Huge Dehli/Jerrold VU937sr in half and tried to use the UHF end. I said it was basically the same as the directs 91xg. I do have the AntennasDirect DB8 and it wont hardly pick up a thing here even with the Cm7777 amp. I hear its better for channels 30 and up, but honestly I didnt see it myself. I'm an average of 60 miles from the towers. The big Combo Anteannas smoke the singles I've used in my location

PCTools

10-10-08, 06:50 AM

I disagree with this statement.

If you properly align your antennas, you will gain.

An A/B switch is usually the best way to go. You can try to combine the antennas through a reversed splitter and not harm anything, but combined antennas are highly likely to "fight" each other instead of boosting the signals.

Don_M

10-11-08, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Don_M
An A/B switch is usually the best way to go. You can try to combine the antennas through a reversed splitter and not harm anything, but combined antennas are highly likely to "fight" each other instead of boosting the signals.

I disagree with this statement. If you properly align your antennas, you will gain.

For the disinterested person who's trying to learn about this, and even the casual hobbyist, I stand by my recommendation.

Reason #1: "The Two Antenna Trick (indoor version)" on this page (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html).

Reason #2: "The Two Antenna Trick (outdoor version)" (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html#TAT).

You want to go through this much work for an extra dB or two? Be my guest. Most people won't want to deal with the hassles involved.

PCTools

10-11-08, 04:48 PM

The added gain in deep fringe areas is worth the hassle and bragging rights, once the design is completed.

Living in a remote location, 50 miles from the nearest transmitter allows the implementation of a stacked array with no overloading of the system.

Achieving digital locks on stations in the Detroit, Cleveland, Flint, Dayton, Lansing, Ann Arbor, Ft. Wayne, Chicago, and Toledo markets is an accomplishment.

Then again, having your tower at 801 ft above sea level is the secret to my success.

Chad
Electrical Engineer

For the disinterested person who's trying to learn about this, and even the casual hobbyist, I stand by my recommendation.

Reason #1: "The Two Antenna Trick (indoor version)" on this page (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html).

Reason #2: "The Two Antenna Trick (outdoor version)" (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html#TAT).

You want to go through this much work for an extra dB or two? Be my guest. Most people won't want to deal with the hassles involved.

philherz

10-11-08, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Don_M
An A/B switch is usually the best way to go. You can try to combine the antennas through a reversed splitter and not harm anything, but combined antennas are highly likely to "fight" each other instead of boosting the signals.

For the disinterested person who's trying to learn about this, and even the casual hobbyist, I stand by my recommendation.

Reason #1: "The Two Antenna Trick (indoor version)" on this page (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/silver.html).

Just to remind anyone interested: For the last 4 weeks, my parents have been using a Radio Shack 15-1878 to pick up the top 6 channels at their apartment as listed in the tvfool printout. (Their apartment is in a complex and there's a highway noise barrier close by.)

The hardest to get has always been WKBW and it worked great until my father "adjusted" the antenna and really screwed it royal!

http://www.discountsoccerjerseys.com...8_Zip_Code.png

My parents have one of those "lifeline" cable connections for $9/month that they haven't used since they went OTA.

Since I haven't gotten any other antennas yet, I added my A/B switch so they could at least get SD WKBW from the cable.

Without adjusting the Radio Shack 15-1878 whatsoever, I noticed that WKBW has returned OTA and the antenna doesn't seem susceptible to losing channel lock when someone walks past it.

Probably just dumb luck, but all channels seem rock-solid for some reason!!!

gychang

10-11-08, 09:55 PM

Digital Rules

10-11-08, 11:33 PM

Gychang,

You will lose 4 stations after the '09 transition that are going back to VHF.(KTTV, KABC, KCOP, & KCAL) One of the Winegard HD channel 7-52 antennas would be a better choice; except for the weak HD-1080. RG-6 cable should work just fine for you.

Falcon_77

10-11-08, 11:37 PM

I live in Irvine, CA (92603), I need to receive Los Angeles stations 44 miles away.

We will need 7-13 locally next year as well, but a UHF antenna may work. I would suggest checking out Fry's Electronics. They carry the Channel Master line, though there have been some recent design changes. I have a CM4228 in my attic (at 51 miles vs. your 44) and it works great. It is probably going to be enough for 7-13 as well, but I have a YA1713 in my attic as well.

A CM4221 would probably be fine for UHF in the attic, but it's not going to get it done for VHF 7.

Fry's has plenty of RG6 cable, though I have found the quality to be a bit lacking. I prefer double shielded RG6 cabling from Lowe's (Philips), with compression connectors (some assembly required).

gychang

10-12-08, 01:23 PM

We will need 7-13 locally next year as well, but a UHF antenna may work. I would suggest checking out Fry's Electronics. They carry the Channel Master line, though there have been some recent design changes. I have a CM4228 in my attic (at 51 miles vs. your 44) and it works great. It is probably going to be enough for 7-13 as well, but I have a YA1713 in my attic as well.

A CM4221 would probably be fine for UHF in the attic, but it's not going to get it done for VHF 7.

Fry's has plenty of RG6 cable, though I have found the quality to be a bit lacking. I prefer double shielded RG6 cabling from Lowe's (Philips), with compression connectors (some assembly required).

thanks very much will check it out.

gychang

ziggy29

10-12-08, 06:14 PM

Correction, Radio Shack = Ridiculously Overpriced Garbage.
You mean you don't use their products with Terk antennas and Monster Cables?

Konrad2

10-12-08, 06:39 PM

>> Correction, Radio Shack = Ridiculously Overpriced Garbage.

> You mean you don't use their products with Terk antennas and Monster Cables?

Monster tends to be overpriced, sometimes obscenely so,
but the quality is good, it isn't garbage. Occasionally
you can find it at a reasonable price. Radio Shack
is garbage at any price.

PCTools

10-12-08, 07:12 PM

Monster Cables are overpriced, and imported into the United States. I toured the facility back in 2007, with the President of the company. The majority of the employees are not American.

As for pricing, the mark-up on these is incredible. I get 60% off list and they are STILL expensive. Then again, I have over $2,000 worth of their cables in my home. (That is with the discount). Then again, I am an audiophile.

>> Correction, Radio Shack = Ridiculously Overpriced Garbage.

> You mean you don't use their products with Terk antennas and Monster Cables?

Monster tends to be overpriced, sometimes obscenely so,
but the quality is good, it isn't garbage. Occasionally
you can find it at a reasonable price. Radio Shack
is garbage at any price.

AntAltMike

10-12-08, 07:24 PM

A decade ago, I did a residential antenna system installatin in a big home. A couple of days later, the customer called me back because one of the outlets wasn't working and she was sure it was my fault because all they had done was to replace the cheap TV coax with a nice $15 monster cable with gold plated connectors and coil spring strain relief.

Guess what? The Monster cable was bad. I cut off the gold plated, strain relief conductor and crimped on a ten cent one. I never heard from them again.

electrictroy

10-13-08, 08:49 AM

You'll need a dedicated VHF-HI, or a channel 10 specific antenna. WHTM has a directional antenna pattern that favors areas to the west of Harrisburg. Yeah I don't understand that. WHTM is supposed to be part of the Lancaster-York-Lebanon market, so why are they broadcasting *away* from those cities? Not logical imho.

Also I was looking for a way to improve CM4228 reception on the VHF-Hi band without buying an additional antenna. Is that possible?

Sammer

10-13-08, 12:47 PM

Yeah I don't understand that. WHTM is supposed to be part of the Lancaster-York-Lebanon market, so why are they broadcasting *away* from those cities? Not logical imho.

It probably has to do with pre-transition interference, specifically with WCAU Philadelphia. They are also short spaced to WTAJ Altoona but the terrain gives them more leeway to the west. They have filed a post-transition maximization petition for a non-directional antenna at a greater height with the FCC.

Ben98gs

10-13-08, 03:51 PM

I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what antenna would work best for me... I was originally thinking about the CM4228 but have been told that is probably overkill. This will be attic mounted and I would like to receive the 2 VHF Lo channels in addition to the VHF Hi and UHF.

Is the CM4228 a good antenna for my location or is there one better suited to get all the channels I want. Most of the stuff that I want is in the 200*-270* range, but the ones at 360* we watch a lot too.. Am I going to need a rotator to ensure I get all those as well or am I close enough to all to use a single permanently mounted antenna.

Thanks for your help.

Here is the TVFool of my location:

Don_M

10-13-08, 05:36 PM

I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what antenna would work best for me...

The attached TVFool report contains both both analog and digital broadcasts. Since full-power analog stations (usually, but not always, major-network affiliates) are going away at the Feb. 17 transition, and since some of the digital-broadcast channel assignments may be changed on or after that date, please attach a post-transition report to a follow-up reply. With only four months to go, it makes little sense to offer recommendations now that may be obsolete then. In addition, please tell us how many tuners you plan to hook up to the antenna and give a rough estimate of antenna-downlead length, and the length of any cables to additional tuners.

Generally speaking, the 4228 isn't the best choice for an attic installation. You want a Yagi antenna, which would offer better multipath-rejection capability. Specific ideas must await the post-transition report. If any of your digital stations are assigned to the VHF-low band permanently, you'll need an all-channel model; if not, a VHF-high/UHF combination antenna will do the trick.

The TVFool radar plot suggests a rotor will be a good idea. No stationary directional antenna is capable of picking up signals from that wide a range.

Falcon_77

10-13-08, 09:00 PM

Generally speaking, the 4228 isn't the best choice for an attic installation. You want a Yagi antenna, which would offer better multipath-rejection capability.

Bow-ties are my first choice for an attic installation (I have 2 for the purpose). While the above concern is correct, putting a long boom antenna in an attic is not a fun exercise, especially if you want to put the antenna on a rotor.

I would suggest a CM4221 for UHF, but you may need to add an upper VHF antenna for WISH and WTHR (for directionality if you have multi-path problems). WISH is on 9 and will remain there, but WTHR will be moving back to 13. No Low-VHF DTV stations are currently slated for the Indianapolis area.

kenbell

10-13-08, 11:09 PM

I'm attaching the signal analysis from TVfool in case it might help.

I installed a Channel Master 4220 on the strip of wall in between the two North-facing windows of my apartment, and am using a Zenith DTT901 (August build).

Currently this setup receives the following channels:

2.1 (WCBS)
4.1 (WNBC)
4.2 (WNBC weather)
4.4 (WNBC ?)
5.1 (WNYW)
5.2 (WWOR)
7.1 (WABC)
7.2 (WABC weather)
7.3 (WABC "Now")
9.1 (WWOR)
9.2 (WNYW)
11.1 (WPIX)
11.2 (LATV)
[13.1 (WNET) mostly missing]
[13.2 (WNET Kids) mostly missing]
25.1 (WNYE) weak
25.2 (WNYE traffic cam) weak
[41.1 (WXTV) mostly missing]
[68.1 (WFUT) mostly missing]

There are steel gates on both windows, and there is a fire escape outside, so I can't mount the antenna outside (or it will poke someone's eye out when they are escaping from a fire). The windows face into the building's euphemistically named "courtyard", about ten feet from the northernmost inner brick wall (and from there, apartments and outer brick wall) of the building. This is, for those familiar with the area, opposite the side entrance of the defunct Fillmore East :-) In its current location, the 4220 sort of "peeks through" the fire escape and the center 3 or 4 inches of it sit between the steel gates.

Anyhow, the reception is remarkably good. It was good, but not as good, even with an old RCA set top round loop UHF antenna before I got the CM4220.

The signal from Channel 13 (WNET) however is almost always absent, as is that from Channel 68 (WFUT), although both have been pulled in on occasion.

Is it worth trying the addition of a CM7777 to boost the signal? I've also read good things about the Antennacraft 10G212.

Any other ideas on dragging in the fringe stations?

BTW, offtopic, but why does WWOR shows up on 5.2 as well as 9.1?

Thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for any advice.

-- Ken

Digital Rules

10-13-08, 11:25 PM

Is it worth trying the addition of a CM7777 to boost the signal? I've also read good things about the Antennacraft 10G212."Any" amplification at 1.5 miles out will certainly degrade your reception.(Especially your weaker channels) For an indoor antenna you are getting very good results. Your best bet is to wait till FEB'09 and you should at least see an improvement on WNET. WNET is now on UHF channel 61; but will be going to VHF channel 13 on FEB 17 '09.

nwiser

10-13-08, 11:46 PM

hi guys. for those that are pro's at this, I have a question about grounding: If I want to properly ground my antenna, in addition to grounding the coax via a grounding block, I have to ground the antenna mount. Is grounding the mount the same as grounding the antenna, and what qualifies as the mount (tripod, bracket, just the mast)?

If I have my antenna on a mast that is set in a tripod, does the ground wire go to the mast or to the tripod, and how would one connect it to either? I know there are clamps that one slips on a ground rod to feed the ground wire through, but would one of those clamps also need to go on the antenna mast so that a ground wire could be connected to it, and ground it that way? Thanks.

jstachowiak

10-14-08, 08:12 AM

I am new at this, want to put an HDTV UHF antenna in my attic.

I live in Irvine, CA (92603), I need to receive Los Angeles stations 44 miles away.

1. I am considering Eagle Aspen Dtv2Buhf Directv 2-Bay Uhf Antenna, from Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000GIT002/ref=ord_cart_shr?_encoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

is this reasonable to try?

2. What is a optimal cable to get it hooked to my TV? will RG6 F cable work?
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10216&cs_id=1021603&p_id=4060&seq=1&format=2

thanks for any suggestions.

gychang

I have the Eagle Aspen only it is a DB2. I'm 14 miles from the antennas and it works great. They make a DB4 (two of these) and a DB8 (4 of them) that might work better for your distance. My DB2 picks up VHF fairly well, better after I combined it with rabbit ears. All mine are in the attic of a high pitch roof about 18 feet above the ground.

DB4 http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB4_HDTV_antenna.html

DB8 http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB8_HD_Antenna.html

Antenna Web will tell you what you need and direction to aim antenna. http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx

It is trial and error for best reception.

PA_MainyYak

10-14-08, 08:23 AM

"Any" amplification at 1.5 miles out will certainly degrade your reception.(Especially your weaker channels) For an indoor antenna you are getting very good results. Your best bet is to wait till FEB'09 and you should at least see an improvement on WNET. WNET is now on VHF channel 13; but will be going to UHF channel 61 on FEB 17 '09. Keep in mind that WNET is in Newark, NJ, so you may never get great reception from them.

Actually WNET is currently using channel 61 for digital, but will return to 13 after analog shutdown next February. Find WNET's Digital Transition Report here. (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101233708&formid=387&fac_num=18795)
No full power TV stations will operate above channel 51 post-transition.

electrictroy

10-14-08, 09:24 AM

I'm glad to hear WHTM will be switching to a non-directional antenna. Maybe more of the signal will reach Lancaster and enable me to pick-up DT10 using a standard 4228 antenna, instead of a bulky Yagi.

I'm beginning to wonder if DTV and amplifiers are non-compatible. I get Philadelphia stations that are 50 miles distant, and although they sometimes drop-out, the addition of an amplifier merely made my local stations disappear (overload of tuner). On analog overload it not really an issue, since is just makes the colors more vibrant, but the digital tuner doesn't seem to like overload. you can not improve the vhf hi reception on the cm4228. If you only want 1 antenna you would need to replace the cm4228 with the appropriate combo antenna. Like a 4228HD. ;-)

Falcon_77

10-14-08, 11:23 AM

Actually WNET is currently using channel 61 for digital, but will return to 13 after analog shutdown next February.

Also, keep in mind that the City of License is often an illusion as WNET is also on the ESB. There are many stations across the country that have their tower well away from their COL's (usually to be co-located with other stations). As long as they can cover the COL with a "City Grade" contour it is enough.

However, they are only operating at 12.4kW, which is weak for UHF.

electrictroy

10-14-08, 12:43 PM

you can not improve the vhf hi reception on the cm4228. If you only want 1 antenna you would need to replace the cm4228 with the appropriate combo antenna. Like the 4228HD. ;-) Why would you even consider screwing around with another UHF antenna ......I am not getting in a pissing match over this so don't bother. Because you said "replace with an appropriate combo antenna" and the 4228HD *is* a combo antenna. The 4228HD has been redesigned & is advertised for channels 7 to 69.

No "pissing match". Just the facts. You can verify those facts for yourself, or ask for confirmation from someone else on the forum.

Konrad2

10-14-08, 02:39 PM

Falcon_77 types:

> I prefer double shielded RG6 cabling from Lowe's (Philips),
> with compression connectors (some assembly required).

My Lowe's has RG6 quad shield with factory attached connectors.
No assembly required.

[ bow-tie vs yagi in attic ]
> putting a long boom antenna in an attic is not a fun exercise

Depends on your attic. My roof is fairly low pitch, so my PR-8800
barely fits. My YA-1713 fits easily. It might be more difficult
if I had trusses. And a Yagi with a corner reflector would take
more room.

> if you want to put the antenna on a rotor

That would take a large, open attic with either style antenna.

Don_M

10-14-08, 04:26 PM

Bow-ties are my first choice for an attic installation (I have 2 for the purpose). While the above concern is correct, putting a long boom antenna in an attic is not a fun exercise, especially if you want to put the antenna on a rotor.

Concur. My UHF attic antenna is a hand-built DB-4 clone, and it performs just fine. There's no way I could use a rotor with a Yagi thanks to roof trusses. Nevertheless, the classic advice from people with more practical experience than I have is that attics increase the potential for short-delay multipath, hence the Yagi recommendation. YMMV, as always. :cool:

mclapp

10-14-08, 09:56 PM

Yeah I don't understand that. WHTM is supposed to be part of the Lancaster-York-Lebanon market, so why are they broadcasting *away* from those cities? Not logical imho.

Also I was looking for a way to improve CM4228 reception on the VHF-Hi band without buying an additional antenna. Is that possible?

You can improve the VHF-HI reception of a 4228 in theory by moving the reflector screen back 10 - 11" so you end up with 15 - 16" of reflector spacing you should gain a couple of db average across the VHF-HI band (some channels more some less).

The reason why I say in theory is because I have never done this with an actual 4228 only computer models.
I have tested the theory with home made versions of 4 bays and 8 bays based on the channel master and winegard designs and it does work on those.

It does affect the UHF band width some but still has good gain across the future UHF band. If you don't get the station you desire at all now this mod will probably not make a difference but for someone on the edge it could. It may not be worth the effort for a couple of db but I'll leave that up to you to decide.

Also be sure the reflector screens are electrically bound together, if they aren't the individual reflectors will be too narrow to act as a reflector for VHF-HI and actually act as a director, that's why some people have reported better reception on VHF-HI through the screen.

w0en

10-14-08, 11:56 PM

electrictroy

10-15-08, 09:05 AM

Which is why I bought the channel 10 yagi, but that thing is HUGE. I'd rather not use it if I can avoid it. Also be sure the reflector screens are electrically bound together... How do I do that? Wrap pieces of wire down the center of the reflector screen?How do I know ???? I called there and asked the technical staff who already compared the 2 antennas...comparable...similar was the words used to describe reception on vhf hi. Well that's disappointing to hear. Since the old 4228 was advertised as "13-69" and the new 4228HD was advertised as "7-69", I figured they had improved its VHF capability. Also the screen is wider, and now it's one single piece.

mclapp

10-15-08, 09:28 AM

mclapp - since you have done so much empirical work with the longer 9-1/2 or 10 inch open ended bow tie elements to favor the lower UHF channels have you tried anything with dimensions for the closed end bow tie style which from my reading allow a shorter bow tie for the same effect on lower UHF channels and would certainly be a more rugged option from birds and debris for outdoor mounting than the open ended bow tie style?

I've modeled them but never built one they in theory would have slightly less gain than the whisker style. I have built the winegard style with flat wide elements those are very rugged.

300 ohm is building a closed end bowtie now maybe he can report on that when he gets it built.

mclapp

10-15-08, 10:00 AM

Which is why I bought the channel 10 yagi, but that thing is HUGE. I'd rather not use it if I can avoid it.

A single channel yagi is the way to go for sure you won't find anything with better gain for the size. Have you tried it?

I understand why and I don't blame you, if you can get it done with 1 smaller antenna why bother adding another big one, but that may be your only choice here.

How do I do that? Wrap pieces of wire down the center of the reflector screen?

Yes the best way to do it would be to wrap a wire all the way down the the vertical length of the screen halves. Other wise you are relying on the screens to hopefully touch and the 2 horizontal frame members behind the screen to be the reflector (which are too short and too few).

Well that's disappointing to hear. Since the old 4228 was advertised as "13-69" and the new 4228HD was advertised as "7-69", I figured they had improved its VHF capability. Also the screen is wider, and now it's one single piece.

Going to the different reflector should slightly improve the gain on some VHF-HI channels but it still won't be much of an antenna for VHF-HI. It will probably be a couple of db better here and there. I belive the quote was "comparable... similar".

The biggest problem with this style antenna for most people won't be the lack of gain but instead be the multipath problems due to the very wide beam width it has on VHF-HI.

Ben98gs

10-15-08, 11:03 AM

The attached TVFool report contains both both analog and digital broadcasts. Since full-power analog stations (usually, but not always, major-network affiliates) are going away at the Feb. 17 transition, and since some of the digital-broadcast channel assignments may be changed on or after that date, please attach a post-transition report to a follow-up reply. With only four months to go, it makes little sense to offer recommendations now that may be obsolete then. In addition, please tell us how many tuners you plan to hook up to the antenna and give a rough estimate of antenna-downlead length, and the length of any cables to additional tuners.

Sorry about that, I thought I had uploaded the Post-transition report, I got them mixed up... Find the post-transition below. You are right that the VHF-low goes away so a VHF-hi/UHF combination will do the trick, but recommendations are still needed as the 4228 that I was considering you said would probably not be the best choice for my attic installation.

As for the number of tuners, it is currently going to be 2, but would like the option to possibly add 1 or 2 more (currently only "need" it in the bedroom and family room, but would like the option to do it in the theater room). I have the whole house wired already. The antenna would probably be about a 25-30 ft run to the patch panel/network box. The run to the bedroom and family room both would probably be about 75-80 ft each and the run to the theater room would be about 30-35 ft (is that what you meant by antenna-download length and lengths to tuners?)

The TVFool radar plot suggests a rotor will be a good idea. No stationary directional antenna is capable of picking up signals from that wide a range.

Since you suggest a rotor, if you have a recommendation for one that should work good with the antenna(s) you recommend as well that would be awesome.

I am somewhat new to all this just ditching my cable less than 2 weeks ago and trying to figure out how to get the stations onto the tv without all the snow and adjusting the rabbit ears... It is getting old fast.

Ben98gs

10-15-08, 11:05 AM

Well, I did have it attached, I do not know why it did not show up... Let me try again... Post-transition TVFool report:

SkiSmuggs

10-15-08, 11:37 AM

Well, I did have it attached, I do not know why it did not show up... Let me try again... Post-transition TVFool report:
Wow, what a difference from the first one. This looks like a 4 bay aimed at about 280-285 degrees might get most of the green group, except you need high-VHF for CBS and NBC. Maybe a CM2016 or one of the Winegard HD769 series would do the job. Anyone care to comment about the possibility of an Antennas Direct Clearstream2 for this?

Don_M

10-15-08, 01:17 PM

Thanks for the additional info; it's a big help. Here's a two-antenna system that should serve you well:

* CM 4221 UHF antenna, mounted above a CM 9521 rotor. This narrow antenna mounts vertically, allowing for rotation in a confined space.

* Antennas Direct Y5-7-13 VHF-high antenna on a second mount lower than, and several feet away from, the 4221. It mounts horizontally and is five feet long by three feet wide max. Channels 8.1 and 13.1 are only 12 degrees apart, so this antenna won't need to be rotated. These are the only two VHF stations you'll likely receive from any attic-mounted antenna. Aim the antenna 8 degrees to the north of due west.

* Make sure there are no major metal structures (roofing nails excepted) in front of either antenna. This includes metal ducts/vents, air handlers, even rain gutters outside. Aiming through brick, aluminum siding or stucco (bonded to the wall with steel mesh) are also no-nos.

* Couple the antennas on one downlead with a UVSJ band separator/combiner. UVSJs lose much less signal than splitters used in reverse and have signal-conditioning capabilities splitters lack. They're no more expensive, either.

* I don't think a pre-amp will be necessary for two tuners. It's worth trying out the antennas before you buy one. Be sure to screw coax terminators onto any unused splitter ports in your patch panel to prevent signal loss or extra reflections.

* When you're ready to put three or four TVs on the antenna system, a low-power pre-amp like Winegard HDP-269 will be sufficient to overcome resulting cable and splitter losses. Insert the amplifier module after the UVSJ, and the power injector before the splitter.

The 4221 doesn't have the 4228's gain, but it's more than sufficient for your signal environment. The Y5, meanwhile, is stronger on VHF. I've more or less described my own attic system (minus the HDP-269) as our signal-strength figures are very similar, and this works well here for two tuners.

Ben98gs

10-15-08, 02:09 PM

Thanks for all the information/help... I had been thinking about putting the antenna in one of the "loft" areas on the front (west facing) side of the house, but then there would be aluminum siding in front of it which you said is not good....

I am trying to figure out where the best place to put the antenna would be then... Here is a picture of the house. The front of the house faces west, so the left of the picture would be north and the right would be south.

http://www.indyhpmedia.com/pics/Ben98gs/Newhouse.jpg

Would my best bet be to try and place it above the two smaller windows in that attic area? Seems most of my stations are to the southwest, so that might mean that the front part of the house above the garage would be in the way... I know roof mounting would be better, but with my house being THE FIRST house you see coming into the neighborhood I can see the HOA cracking down on my harder than they might someone else if the antenna does not look "pretty". So any suggestions as to attic location since I seem to have one or more of the things you list as "no-nos" that might be a factor?

Ben98gs

10-15-08, 02:12 PM

Don_M

10-15-08, 03:33 PM

Ben, the siding looks like vinyl to me, which is OK. AFAIK, aluminum siding was passe long before your home was built. The gable vent looks like it's either wood or PVC, which also won't be a problem.

SkiSmuggs

10-15-08, 06:20 PM

Actually, maybe I will have to check... The more I think about it, the more I think I have vinyl siding and not aluminum... That would make that front area above the garage a viable location still (as that is where I was originally thinking) as that vent I believe is wooden and not metal as well.

Maybe I need to climb up there this weekend and take a look around.
Ben,
I used a wall mount and fastened right to the end of the eave near the gutter ends. It has been there for 2.5 years and survived high winds with up to 3 antennas (4 bay, hi-VHF and lo-VHF) on two 5' pole sections. Fortunately I am down to just one 2-bay UHF/VHF and one 5 foot pole.

PA_MainyYak

10-16-08, 08:49 AM

Thanks for all the information/help...
... Seems most of my stations are to the southwest, so that might mean that the front part of the house above the garage would be in the way... I know roof mounting would be better, but with my house being THE FIRST house you see coming into the neighborhood I can see the HOA cracking down on my harder than they might someone else if the antenna does not look "pretty". So any suggestions as to attic location since I seem to have one or more of the things you list as "no-nos" that might be a factor?

Do keep in mind, the HOA cannot prohibit you from installing a TV antenna on your roof. The guidelines are posted throughout this thread. Your TV Fool plot strongly suggests the need for a modest antenna for Hi-VHF and UHF with a rotor. That might be a tall order inside your loft.

Ben98gs

10-16-08, 10:17 AM

I do know that, but sometimes it is easier to just abide by the rules even thought they are superceded by a higher law. Because what happens when I install it and they tell me to take it down? I can either take it down or leave it up and tell them about the law. I have heard of people paying $1,000's in court fees to fight the neighborhood association over things like satellite dishes.

As long as I can find a way to get good reception that is all that matters. If I end up having to put it outside, I will do my best to keep it "hidden" and fight it if it comes down to that.

Ben98gs

10-16-08, 10:29 AM

When looking for one of these, I find a CM4221, a CM4221A, and a CM4221HD... Is there really a difference? The 4221 and 4221A are the same price, the 4221HD jumps up ~$20 in price over the other two. Which one should I be looking for?

electrictroy

10-16-08, 11:12 AM

Don't you need a VHF antenna for the post-2009 transition? [edit] Yes. If you want WISH-9-CBS and WTHR-13-NBC, then you will need a VHF antenna. The UHF-only 4221 will not work by itself. I can either take it down or leave it up and tell them about the law. I have heard of people paying $1,000's in court fees to fight the neighborhood association over things like satellite dishes. No. What usually happens is that the Housing Association Lawyer reads the law, and then tells the HA that the U.S. Congress overrules them. Even for those clueless HAs that force the issue, they end-up losing the case and having to pay damages caused to the resident they hassled. So either way, you win.

And finally often the best way to shutdown an argument is to say, "Well you have a dish on your roof, so aren't you in violation too?" Since neighbors don't want to enforce the rules & deprive themselves of satellite service, they will conveniently overlook your antenna.

Don_M

10-16-08, 12:14 PM

Posted by Ben98gs:
When looking for one of these, I find a CM4221, a CM4221A, and a CM4221HD... Is there really a difference? The 4221 and 4221A are the same price, the 4221HD jumps up ~$20 in price over the other two.

The 4221 and 4221A are basically the same thing. They have been discontinued and superseded by the 4221HD. While CM has released few specifications on the 'HD beyond average gain, its design is not radically different, and so there doesn't appear to be much justification for spending the extra money while the tried-and-true, older 4221s are still available.

Posted by electrictoy:
Don't you need a VHF antenna for the post-2009 transition?

Ben was advised to combine the 4221 with a VHF-high antenna in an earlier post.

holl_ands

10-16-08, 04:49 PM

FCC/OET released Test Report for proposed PROTOTYPE White Space Devices (WSD)
which would operate on "unoccupied" TV channels....better known as "Out-Of-Market"
stations to most of us:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1048951

GutBuster

10-17-08, 04:42 AM

I'm such a "newbie" to antennas of any sort, especially HD antennas. The jargon is a little over my head at the moment since I have only been researching the idea for roughly 24-48 hours. With that said, I'm sold on at least giving this a shot since I don't have HD service and don't plan on having it for some time. I have an HD TV so that base is covered... can anyone help me with the selection of an antenna? I live in a 3 story town house so the roof is a bit out of the question, although, I can place it in either the attic or on the second story balcony (but would have to be a compact model). Below are my results from antennaweb.org

Sorry for my lack of knowledge on the subject.

ANY advice to point me in the correct direction would be GREATLY appreciated.
http://i34.tinypic.com/1zqvcxe.gif

electrictroy

10-17-08, 08:16 AM

I'm such a "newbie" to antennas of any sort, especially HD antennas. There's no such thing as an HD antenna. An antenna does not care if it's receiving analog, digital, standard, or high definition signals.

If I lived in an apartment, I'd get the CM4228HD which has the power of a large antenna, but can fit inside your room (about the same size as a chair).

holl_ands

10-17-08, 11:18 AM

I think your apt complex is on Highland Ridge Rd just south-west of EW Connector...Right???
It appears you may have multiple apt units between you and the towers...Right???
If not, could you generally describe your surroundings and nearby cross streets?

Good news: It's on the top of a hill.
Not so good news: www.tvfool.com shows all stations being single/double edge diffraction.
So indoor antennas are going to be a challenge, despite being only 10 miles away.

You could try indoor location....preferable looking out a SE window...but attic is better.

CM-4228 has a beamwidth of 20-30 degrees (narrower for higher channels).
You might have difficulties aligning the CM-4228 to receive stations scattered across
24 degrees (107-131) and many would be operating at reduced gain on the sidelobes.
You could try it and if you have difficulties, you could add a rotator in the attic.

However, I recommend trying any of the broader beamwidth 4-Bay antennas first.
If you want to receive WATC-DT towards 17 degrees, you'll need a rotator....
or a dual antenna system. However, with a 4-Bay it might come in on a sidelobe....

Post-Feb2008 all of the primary stations will continue to be in UHF band,
incl. WPBS-DT (30.1) for PBS. A second PBS station, WGTV-DT goes to VHF Ch8,
which may or may not work with either CM-4228 or 4-Bay antenna. If you
decide it's worth the extra effort, you could add a VHF-only antenna such as
Winegard YA-1713, Antennacraft Y10-7-13 or Y5-7-13.

Standard YMMV Disclaimer Applies.
Indoor/Attic locations, esp. in Apt/Condo buildings with rebar/steel,
Aluminized moisture barrier wraps, et. al. are very difficult to predict...
esp. with other nearby buildings attenuating the signal.....

PS: While trying to tri-laterate your LAT/LONG position, I noticed
www.antennaweb.org results varied quite a bit for very small
changes (a few 100 feet) in your vicinity.....

GutBuster

10-18-08, 04:38 AM

I think your apt complex is on Highland Ridge Rd just south-west of EW Connector...Right???
It appears you may have multiple apt units between you and the towers...Right???
If not, could you generally describe your surroundings and nearby cross streets?

Good news: It's on the top of a hill.
Not so good news: shows all stations being single/double edge diffraction.
So indoor antennas are going to be a challenge, despite being only 10 miles away.

You could try indoor location....preferable looking out a SE window...but attic is better.

CM-4228 has a beamwidth of 20-30 degrees (narrower for higher channels).
You might have difficulties aligning the CM-4228 to receive stations scattered across
24 degrees (107-131) and many would be operating at reduced gain on the sidelobes.
You could try it and if you have difficulties, you could add a rotator in the attic.

However, I recommend trying any of the broader beamwidth 4-Bay antennas first.
If you want to receive WATC-DT towards 17 degrees, you'll need a rotator....
or a dual antenna system. However, with a 4-Bay it might come in on a sidelobe....

Post-Feb2008 all of the primary stations will continue to be in UHF band,
incl. WPBS-DT (30.1) for PBS. A second PBS station, WGTV-DT goes to VHF Ch8,
which may or may not work with either CM-4228 or 4-Bay antenna. If you
decide it's worth the extra effort, you could add a VHF-only antenna such as
Winegard YA-1713, Antennacraft Y10-7-13 or Y5-7-13.

Standard YMMV Disclaimer Applies.
Indoor/Attic locations, esp. in Apt/Condo buildings with rebar/steel,
Aluminized moisture barrier wraps, et. al. are very difficult to predict...
esp. with other nearby buildings attenuating the signal.....

PS: While trying to tri-laterate your LAT/LONG position, I noticed
results varied quite a bit for very small
changes (a few 100 feet) in your vicinity.....

Thank you for taking the time to offer some lengthy insight.

I must ask though.... how in the WORLD, did you pinpoint my location??? That's nuts.

Yes, my community is on the corner of highland and the east west connector, although it's townhouses and not apartments. From my knowledge there is only 1 significant town house community (within a couple of miles) in between mine and metro Atlanta. No notable tall trees or buildings.... I will have to pay more attention on my next cruise but I'm fairly sure there isn't too much.

holl_ands

10-18-08, 06:23 AM

It really helps when someone provides their location to whatever accuracy they're comfortable.
Precise address number or LAT/LON aren't needed, but nearby cross streets or LAT/LON
to at least three decimals allows us to quickly "look" around your area wrt terrain and other
buildings and check www.tvfool.com when a user hasn't already provided results .

I simply used www.antennaweb.org to tri-laterate your position by trying to replicate
the chart you provided. So many miles from each of 2 (or 3) directions.... Re-tweak cursor
position on the map a few times to fine tune. Cross check with GoogleEarth to find LAT/LONG
and tilt the map to look at buildings & terrain elevations. Practice makes it go a lot faster....

PS: I downloaded a *.kmz file from www.tvfool.com which overlays the
location of every TV/DTV tower in the U.S. (and borders) on top of GoogleEarth.

BTW: It also helps if you provide your location and perhaps equipment list by clicking
on "UserCP" at top of forum page. Click on any username to see Public Profile/About Me.

electrictroy

10-20-08, 10:47 AM

You could try indoor location....preferable looking out a SE window...but attic is better. If his apartment is like my old apartment he won't have access to the attic. He'll have to put it inside his room.

And the best option is to go with "bigger is better" like the CM4228-HD, which can receive channels 7 through 69.

rmahlert

10-23-08, 12:26 PM

Hello,

Looking for some suggestions.

I'm 50-55 miles from the Boston stations at 77* (true) on the tvfool image below and I'm in hilly terrain. TVFool says I'm in the fringe(purple in my area) according to the coverage maps I've looked at for the Boston stations. I have a Antennas Direct ClearStream 4 and have been testing it before I mount it on the roof. I can receive a few digital stations from Boston, WCVB and WHDH with it on my deck pointed towards the towers with a 25ft cable. During the day the signal is weak and night I get perfect reception. On my Panny plasma it's signal meter is in the 20-35% range during the day and 55-70% at night. From what I can tell my Panny needs at least 40-45% signal to be watchable.

My main goal is to receive the Boston stations(77*) and then the 'local' Springfield stations(290*). The Springfield stations are not bad now with the antenna on the deck and the broadcast direction is almost from the opposite side of the Boston towers, my guess is on the roof I'll get them fine with the antenna pointing towards Boston. The house might be blocking the Springfield signals. I really have no desire for the Hartford stations(225*), they don't offer me local news and weather.

I'm thinking a second antenna and an amp, which I have ordered a Channel Master 7778. Any suggestions to improve the Boston reception? WHEN it goes on the roof, it will be a 30-40' cable to the basement, at which I plan to use a distribution amplifier to my tv's over rg6 cable lines. It's roughly 25' more to my main setup, a Panny Plasma and my SageTV Box with a Hauppauge 1600 tuner.

http://mahlert.net/tvfool.png

One other questions.. if you look at the list. WBZ DT of Boston broadcast on UHF 30 and WVIT-TV(analog) of Hartford is on UHF 30.. so, no WBZ DT until the Hartford analog goes offline in February?

Thanks!
RobM

holl_ands

10-23-08, 04:13 PM

Receiving Boston (azimuth 77 degrees) Post-Feb2009 is very unlikely.

ATSC needs more than 15 dB D/U ratio co-channel DTV and "should"
receive desired signal with an adjacent DTV that is 33 dB STRONGER.
(D=Desired, U=Undesired, see ATSC A/74 for more details)

1. Boston Ch19 & Ch20 will be blocked by stronger Ch19 and can't be
overcome by the sidelobe suppression ratio of available antennas.

2. Boston Ch7 is co-channel with stronger Ch7 (223 degrees) and can't
be adequately suppressed. (VHF antennas do not have large F/B ratios).

3. Boston Ch30 is adjacent to stronger Ch29 & Ch31 which can't be
adequately suppressed.

Even if you didn't have co-channel and adjacent channel problems,
signal levels are probably too weak to be received anyway....

CURRENTLY, very strong WUNI on Ch29 prevents reception of adjacent
Ch30 for either WBZ-DT or WVIT-TV. Rerun TVFool to check levels.

jstachowiak

10-23-08, 09:06 PM