Yeah, my Sansonic FT300A bars take time to respond to changes too. I imagine youll post a similiar comparison to it later too.
Your comparison analysis with the Apex was very useful, thanks again. Deep down, I always thought these cheap CECBs could be sensitive, down and dirty tools to use.
IIRC, you also have the Sansonic. Can we expect another comparison analysis soon, heh ? (no pressure)
Here is my comparison of the Apex DT502 vs the Sansonic FT300A when used as a signal level/BER meter, first in a strong signal area. The signal level readings in dBmV were made with a Sadelco DisplayMax 800 and a 719E SLM (Q=quality, S=strength):
attenuator Apex Sansonic DM800 719E Equiv
dB Q% S% Q% S% dBmV dBmV dBm
0 100 84 100 100 +9.9 +9.0 -39.8
3 100 84 100 100 +6.5 +6.1 -42.7
6 100 83 100 100 +4.2 +3.1 -45.7
9 100 83 100 100 +1.5 0.0 -48.8
12 100 80 100 100 -1.4 -3.0 -51.8
15 100 76 100 100 -5.2 -6.0 -54.8
18 100 72 100 100 -8.5 -9.3 -58.1
21 100 68 100 91 -10.9 -12.1 -60.9
24 100 64 100 80 -13.1 -15.0 -63.8
27 100 57 100 70 -15.7 -18.3 -67.1
30 100 51 24 60 -18.5 -22.0 -70.8
33 100 46 8 40 Ur -25.2 -74.0
36 100 41 4 34 -29 -77.8
39 95 37 dropout -35 -83.8
42 79 30
45 35 0
48 dropout
And then in a weak signal area:
attenuator Apex Sansonic DM800 719E Equiv
dB Q% S% Q% S% dBmV dBmV dBm
0 100 55 100 100 -18.1 -21.0 -69.8
3 100 50 94 95 Ur -25 -73.8
6 100 43 100 83 -29 -77.8
9 92 34 38 70 -33 -81.8
12 57 26 23 60 -36 -84.8
15 21 0 7 56 -39 -87.8
18 dropout dropout
Note: The initial signal level readings are a little lower than last time because I needed to use a 4-way splitter instead of a 2-way splitter to feed 4 pieces of equipment. Because OTA signal levels are constantly changing, the attenuator settings don't exactly match the signal level meter readings, but this doesn't invalidate the general trend of readings.

Conclusions: The Apex box gives a wider range of readings than the Sansonic, and these readings are more consistent in that they are repeatable when given the same signal again. The Apex needs an inverter to run on battery power, which was necessary because I had to move to other test sites with my car because my CM4221 antenna at home is pointed across a well-traveled road which constantly changes the signal bar readings.

The Sansonic box works just a well as the Apex as a DTV converter box and it can run on battery power, but my main concern is its usefulness as a measurement tool. Its readings take a long time to settle (which I could live with), but they are not consistent from time-to-time which puts its accuracy in question. I can't recommend the Sansonic as a measurement tool. My results with the Sansonic confirm what the NAB-MSTV Converter Box Report says about it in this quote (they call it #7):
One unit (#7) even provided two indicators, one for signal strength and one for signal quality. This method is actually one of the best ways for the viewer to understand what is happening with the incoming DTV signal since it immediately indicates whether problem reception is due to broadband signal fading or severe dynamic multipath. However, during the lab testing experience, while the signal strength meter worked well, this particular signal quality meter (in unit #7) jumped around between large and small numbers and was not very stable. Nevertheless, this dual meter approach is a good idea if implemented properly.
Their report is here:
http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%20Digital%20Converter%20Box%20Evaluation/Manuals-summary-report1.html
Click on Digital Converter Box Report which should take you to:
http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%20Digital%20Converter%20Box%20Evaluation/Converter_Box_report.doc.pdf
The quote is on p22 of 53 of the pdf, which is p5 of 36 of the LABORATORY TEST REPORT under Signal Quality Indicator.

Edit: Added equivalent dBm values for 719E dBmV figures using conversion factor of -48.8 for people used to tvfool signal power values and to compare with NTIA sensitivity spec of -83.0 dBm for CECBs. The dBmV figures for the 719E are less accurate below -30 dBmV because the meter scale is crowded at that end. When using a very weak signal for comparisons, I add a preamp between the splitter and the SLM. Since it is not in line with the tuners its noise figure does not affect them:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17539658&postcount=10649

Update: For some strange reason the Apex DT502 has trouble with ION network stations. I tried 3 different units. Also, the Apex does not allow you to add a channel after scan.

Thanks for the measurements rabbit73, they are still useful.

The Sansonic box works just a well as the Apex as a DTV converter box and it can run on battery power, but my main concern is its usefulness as a measurement tool. Its readings take a long time to settle (which I could live with), but they are not consistent from time-to-time which puts its accuracy in question. I can't recommend the Sansonic as a measurement tool.

Yeah, consistancy and repeatability are important for any measurement tool. A yardstick that expanded and contracted would be pretty worthless, heh. (but would make a very good April Fools joke on any carpenter, he he)

I wonder what the malfunction could be ??

300ohm,

How well does that thing work? Do you have any measurements on it or Manf./Model #?

300ohm,

How well does that thing work? Do you have any measurements on it or Manf./Model #?


Do you mean the compost pile UHF corner reflector log-yagi ??

I believe it was a uhf front end to one of Radio Shacks highest gain combo antennas, (circa around 1985, dont know the model number but maybe could find it in an old RS catalog) which I believe were manufactured by AntennaCraft at the time. When I found it, the big VHF/FM section was so completely mangled up and most of the plastic pieces were broken, that I scrapped it for parts. (It probably came down in a big storm because the original owner didnt know the first thing about properly securing an antenna, or had followed the advice of a RS sales clerk, heh)
The UHF director boom was also mangled up pretty bad, but at least I had the first director in front of the driven elements, (the most important one) and after unbending what I could, put on a director boom with elements using typical UHF director spacing found on other similiar antennas.

I made a rough NEC model of it last September, but need to recheck my measurements before posting the file. With the 8 directors on it, in real life testing, it performs worse than a SBGH for channels below 51, but a little better on channels above 60. My DBGH blows it away on channels below say 55 and does about as well on the channels above 60, so I no longer use it.

Actually, some of the brownish spots you see on the booms are not rust stains, but rather whats left of the original gold anodizing, heh.

Thanks for replies. I got another 4' of mast and will play around with tilting and posistion when (and if) we get a nice sunny weekend. I see (using Google Earth) that I am in a shadow for CBS. Will rotate and scan for other stations also. Thanks again.

I originally posted this in my home area thread. But, I realized that it probably belongs here.
I am shopping for an antenna. I live less than 10 miles from the towers. Most channels are UHF. I do want to receive VHF channel 7.1, .2, .3.

TVFool is attached

Solid Signal suggested the Winegard HD7010 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HD-7010). It is just barely in the budget. Actually a liitle outside once I consider the cable and stuff (from monoprice.com (http://www.monoprice.com/home/index.asp)). I can swing it though. I saved some money on the TIVO box at Sears today. The $299 box was on sale for $189 and i got 5% off for floor model. I was planning on a refurb for $199.

I am also considering the Antenna Craft HBU22 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=HBU22) which may be overkill, but is a few dollars cheaper for what appears to be more antenna.

I do like the price on the Winegard HD1080 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CCS822) $25.82 and free shipping. I don't know if it will meet my needs though. Solid signal says it will. I would hate to need to return it though.

Any suggestions?
Am I stressing too much about this and pretty much anything will work?

bcicocco,

Very well written and informative post! You have very strong signals in your area. It is very possible that you could receive all you locals with a **non**amplified indoor antenna such as the Radio shack 15-1874. See: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077

If you go outdoor antenna, the HBU22 is an excellent choice in your price range. Winegard 1080 has very poor reception for high vhf channel 7 and I would clearly avoid it in your situation.

HTH,

Rick

Yes, you are stressing too much.

All you probably need is a set-top antenna with both a loop and rabbit ears. You can probably find those at Big Lots for $10.

From Solid Signal's collection if you want to go outdoors: Antennacraft AC9 or Antennas Direct V10 are both adequate for your needs.

The AC9's price would work in your favor.

You don't need much antenna since you are so close.

So, after hitting the local Menards, Lowes and Home Depot I came up
empty handed for 300 ohm twin lead.

The only thing I could come up with was a wimpy 300 ohm FM antenna
from Magnavox.

The FM antenna wouldn't even pull in a signal.

So, I took your advice and bought some bare 16 gauge copper wire
and made a tuned antenna for VHF 7 out of masking tape, electrical tape,
some scrap plywood and a balun adapter, and guess what, it works great! :D

Total cost: $2.64 (copper wire)

Out of the Radio Shack UFO, and the Cornet F-645A indoor antennas, my homebrew was the only antenna that worked at all.

It's an ugly beta version, but it proves a nicer design will only work better.

I'm able to pick up VHF 7 indoors on my APEX DTV box with 68% signal strength and 100% quality (it has dual meters)

So, thanks again everyone!

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/180/0000241.jpg

I used the link below to make this beast.


Make your own from copper wire. Enter your info here at K7MEMs site for the design measurements : http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=15313

bcicocco,

Very well written and informative post! You have very strong signals in your area. It is very possible that you could receive all you locals with a **non**amplified indoor antenna such as the Radio shack 15-1874. See: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077

If you go outdoor antenna, the HBU22 is an excellent choice in your price range. Winegard 1080 has very poor reception for high vhf channel 7 and I would clearly avoid it in your situation.

HTH,

Rick

I ordered the HBU22 from Solid Signal. I'll let you know how it goes.

In the meantime, I built the homemade antenna here (http://lifehacker.com/5138746/build-your-own-dtv-antenna). I tried it on my mom's TV (she lives a couple of blocks away) and got 9 channels in, all strong, including all three VHF 7channels. I am pretty sure the HUB22 will meet my needs now. I don't know that I will get any more channels. But I will get those 9.

BC

Using the 16 gauge copper wire for the driven element is better than using twinlead. However, the connection from the antenna to the TV should be 300ohm twin lead (or a balun and a length of 75ohm coax cable. )

So, I took your advice and bought some bare 16 gauge copper wire
and made a tuned antenna for VHF 7 out of masking tape, electrical tape,
some scrap plywood and a balun adapter, and guess what, it works great! :D

It's an ugly beta version, but it proves a nicer design will only work better.

.

if it receives or transmits the signals you want then it's not ugly, though some antennas might be better looking than others.

then it's not ugly,

That masking tape on the wall however........................heh.

I'd like to offer you two suggestions you can try that may improve your reception.

1. To maintain the symmetry of your antenna, wrap electrical tape around the board every 6" or so.
2. Use screw terminals (wood screws and washers) at the feed point to maintain a 1" gap and attach a high quality balun (Channel Master 0089 (http://www.summitsource.com/channel-master-0089-outdoor-balun-matching-transformer-excellent-matching-with-lowest-trough-loss-tv-antenna-offair-300-to-75-ohm-with-weather-boot-1-pack-balun-antenna-twin-lead-balum-part-0089-p-8141.html)) there.

Thanks for the tips. Yes, the masking tape is just a temporary
solution. I actually have some paint leftover from that room,
and I'll be painting the wood that color and using those 3M
removable stick-ons to attach it to the wall.

I'll keep the element copper wire, and add some 300 ohm feedline
from somewhere. Heck, I'll even order that ladderline if I have to.

Would adding wood screws and washers alter the pattern?
Everything I read about antennas stresses keeping metal
away from the elements.

Thanks for the tips. Yes, the masking tape is just a temporary
solution. I actually have some paint leftover from that room,
and I'll be painting the wood that color and using those 3M
removable stick-ons to attach it to the wall.

I'll keep the element copper wire, and add some 300 ohm feedline
from somewhere. Heck, I'll even order that ladderline if I have to.

Would adding wood screws and washers alter the pattern?
Everything I read about antennas stresses keeping metal
away from the elements.

if you are feeding a device with a 75 ohm coax input then you could add a balun to the antenna feedpoint and use coax all the way. you may not need to buy the 300 ohm cable at all.

using the adhesive mounts would work. picture hanging devices (metal hooks) would work. having the wood backing extend a few inches longer than the antenna and putting screws in there would work. all these would keep metal away.

yes metal nearby (as in screws) does affect but so does the wall it is hanging on. make up the antenna and if it functions well then go with it even if it isn't optimum in all respects.

you've got good results with what you did. securing the elements a constant distance every six inches as was suggested will be a big improvement. using coax as a feed line or 300 ohm will be a big improvement. if those give a good signal then a screw or two may not matter.

Yes, the masking tape is just a temporary
solution.
Just a tip about masking tape. You want to remove it as soon as possible. If not, it sets in and becomes harder to remove without wall damage.

You dont want to build a quick simple antenna and then have to spend many hours on a spackling and paint job for the wall. That kind of defeats the whole purpose, heh.

Using the 16 gauge copper wire for the driven element is better than using twinlead. However, the connection from the antenna to the TV should be 300ohm twin lead (or a balun and a length of 75ohm coax cable. )

As an old saying goes, NEVER argue with success! :eek:
Heck if its ugly looking but it works, I doubt he would see any improvement going to 300 ohm flat lead....given the size of the wire, and the picture, he COULD be 300ohm now!! (remember, ladder line Z is dependant on wire size, distance, etc).

Masking tape is designed to be removed within 24 hours.

he COULD be 300ohm now!! (remember, ladder line Z is dependant on wire size, distance, etc).

That could very well be true. But usually the odds are stacked way against it. If I were to place a bet, I would put my money that it wouldnt be 300ohm impedance, heh. (we have legalized gambling in Delaware, heh)

Masking tape is designed to be removed within 24 hours.


When I use it for painting a straight edge, I like to remove it within 30 minutes of finishing. Even then I sometimes get that nasty residue. (I know, I should break down and use that pricey blue tape, heh)

Hey all, my inlaws have a vacation home upstate ny in the town of franklin. Its in the middle of no where. We have a radio shack indoor antenna which can be found here (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103916) We get like 4 channels that come in somewhat clear but needs a bit of tweaking with the antenna. Last time i was up there i connected a digital converter box and got about 2 channels. Last week i built a homemade antenna which i followed the instructions according to this (http://uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com/) site. I connected it at my home on long island and get a decent amount of clear channels. I live somewhat close to where the signal is being emitted. Im wondering what type of antenna might be best for the house upstate based on this image i got from tv fool. I know its going to be tough but i was hoping to pick up some more channels for when we go up and visit.
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8315/92204265.jpg

Hey all, my inlaws have a vacation home upstate ny in the town of franklin. Its in the middle of no where. We have a radio shack indoor antenna which can be found here (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103916) We get like 4 channels that come in somewhat clear but needs a bit of tweaking with the antenna. Last time i was up there i connected a digital converter box and got about 2 channels. Last week i built a homemade antenna which i followed the instructions according to this (http://uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com/) site. I connected it at my home on long island and get a decent amount of clear channels. I live somewhat close to where the signal is being emitted. Im wondering what type of antenna might be best for the house upstate based on this image i got from tv fool. I know its going to be tough but i was hoping to pick up some more channels for when we go up and visit.



With everything being MANY miles away, you WILL need an outside antenna and a decent amp like a Channel Master CM7777. I suggest you get 20ft of top rail post, slide them together and then use 3 screws (short sheet metal self tappers work fine!) 120 degrees apart to hold it together just above the joint..then a bracket from Radio Shack or similar to mount it to the eave or side of the house...put a decent outdoor antenna with the CM7777 right below it at the top of the mast, then walk it up, work the bottom into the ground at least 6in deep and clamp it in. I did that and it cost me MORE in the amp than the antenna (an older RS VU90) and mast, etc combined! Works like a champ and I get stations almost 90-100miles away from Houston a lot of the times (not ALL the time! 90+ is beyond the RF horizon..I DO get a station out of SE La ok all the time...your mileage may vary as they say)...forget the indoor stuff...especially with digital in the rural areas (we have a lot down in here in Texas like that; Outside of Houston, DFW, Austin, San Antonio, etc). With the arrangement above you can turn it by hand from the ground. not needing a rotor up top! Saves some cash...Looking at the printout, you may be able to point due north or slightly west and not have to turn it...

Wow, you are in a black hole of signals. I didnt think a place like that existed on the east coast.

We have a radio shack indoor antenna which can be found here We get like 4 channels that come in somewhat clear but needs a bit of tweaking with the antenna

You would be probably better off with this model here : http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017

Like Dr Touchtone said, youre going to need a very high gain antenna, mounted outdoors way up high with a low noise preamp like the CM7777 to even have a chance at receiving some of those stations.
Some high gain do it yourself antennas can be found here http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=186 and here : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265&page=74

In a place like yours, I would seriously consider getting my home entertainment from a dvd player, heh.

so my best bet would prob be a "Grey Hoverman" type antenna with a amp
edit: i have an amp i found in my basement identical to this (http://cgi.ebay.com/Radio-Shack-15-1113B-UHF-VHF-FM-Variable-20dB-Amplifier_W0QQitemZ280329934213QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Default Domain_0?hash=item280329934213&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1 |293%3A1|294%3A50) but just a different brand, would this work with the grey hoverman antenna?

I ordered the HBU22 from Solid Signal. I'll let you know how it goes.

In the meantime, I built the homemade antenna here (http://lifehacker.com/5138746/build-your-own-dtv-antenna). I tried it on my mom's TV (she lives a couple of blocks away) and got 9 channels in, all strong, including all three VHF 7channels. I am pretty sure the HUB22 will meet my needs now. I don't know that I will get any more channels. But I will get those 9.

BC

Please do report back. It's always good to know how things work out and we may be of additional assistance.

All the best,

Rick

so my best bet would prob be a "Grey Hoverman" type antenna with a amp
edit: i have an amp i found in my basement identical to this (http://cgi.ebay.com/Radio-Shack-15-1113B-UHF-VHF-FM-Variable-20dB-Amplifier_W0QQitemZ280329934213QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Default Domain_0?hash=item280329934213&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1 |293%3A1|294%3A50) but just a different brand, would this work with the grey hoverman antenna?

Gawd NO!!! Any RS amp is usually garbage (except their distribution amps but nothing antenna wise is worth a flip..too much noise and not enough gain)...spend some money right and get a CM7777 and be done with it (trust me, you'll be happy in the long run you did it) I am not sure about the Grey Hoverman antenna (edit..just checked the link..yep, you would be better with that antenna than the one you want to use...he was being slightly sarastic!) I would think something like the CM4228 series would do (or the newer 4228HD..provided no LowBand 2-6 stations will be out on the horizon)....

Any RS amp is usually garbage
Yep, stay far far away from them and if you do touch one, wash your hands immediately, heh.

I ordered the HBU22 from Solid Signal. I'll let you know how it goes.

In the meantime, I built the homemade antenna here (http://lifehacker.com/5138746/build-your-own-dtv-antenna). I tried it on my mom's TV (she lives a couple of blocks away) and got 9 channels in, all strong, including all three VHF 7channels. I am pretty sure the HUB22 will meet my needs now. I don't know that I will get any more channels. But I will get those 9.

BC
The Maker:TV and several other DIY 4-Bay designs (e.g. UTube) are
TOO SMALL, resulting in loss of gain on lower and middle UHF channels....
and excessive SWR loss for Hi-VHF....

The blogspot DIY antenna (see post #9134) uses 7-inch bowtie to bowtie
spacing, which results in a better overall gain response, but is still not as
effective as the CM4221 (8-inch spacing) and mclapp's DIY design (9-inch),
which are analyzed here for Hi-VHF and UHF, presuming NO Reflector:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/4bay

DIY designs by mclapp (with Reflectors), that provide good Gain across
BOTH Hi-VHF and UHF bands are summarized here:
http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/Antennas/plots/Antenna%20plots%20with%20reflectors%20UHF.gif
http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/Antennas/plots/Antenna%20test%20VHF-HI.gif

The Maker:TV and several other DIY 4-Bay designs (e.g. UTube) are
TOO SMALL, resulting in loss of gain on lower and middle UHF channels....
and excessive SWR loss for Hi-VHF....

Heh, not only that, but he cheaps out using coat hangers instead of something like 8 or 10 gauge bare copper, (which actually causes more work and connection headaches) but then uses pricey galvanized pipe flanges and nipples and ubolts for his mounting, tsk, tsk.

And of course, he calls a 4 bay bowtie a "Hoover-man" (not Hoverman). I think that particular show was meant to be a comedy episode, heh.

I think Norm would do a little more research before filming than that ! (even Kevin would)

The Maker:TV and several other DIY 4-Bay designs (e.g. UTube) are
TOO SMALL, resulting in loss of gain on lower and middle UHF channels....
and excessive SWR loss for Hi-VHF....

The blogspot DIY antenna (see post #9134) uses 7-inch bowtie to bowtie
spacing, which results in a better overall gain response, but is still not as
effective as the CM4221 (8-inch spacing) and mclapp's DIY design (9-inch),
which are analyzed here for Hi-VHF and UHF, presuming NO Reflector:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/4bay

DIY designs by mclapp (with Reflectors), that provide good Gain across
BOTH Hi-VHF and UHF bands are summarized here:
http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/Antennas/plots/Antenna%20plots%20with%20reflectors%20UHF.gif
http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/Antennas/plots/Antenna%20test%20VHF-HI.gif

Thanks.
I will try the 8 or 9 inch with copper wire for my mom's house and see if it does any better.
I am going to stick with the hbu22, if it fits in the attic.

Italysfinest327,

The Gray-Hovermann will not give you the ability to receive channel 4, 7, or 8. To receive those channels, you'll need a VHF antenna. I also noticed that all your reception is 2-edge. This will make constant reception a challenge. You'll need to make sure you have a clear view (no trees, buildings, or hillsides) in the direction you need to point your antenna. Try to get at least 35-40' above the ground level and I'd recommend at least 10' above your roof line.

You may need to look at ganging antennas.

Italysfinest327,

The Gray-Hovermann will not give you the ability to receive channel 4, 7, or 8. To receive those channels, you'll need a VHF antenna. I also noticed that all your reception is 2-edge. This will make constant reception a challenge. You'll need to make sure you have a clear view (no trees, buildings, or hillsides) in the direction you need to point your antenna. Try to get at least 35-40' above the ground level and I'd recommend at least 10' above your roof line.

You may need to look at ganging antennas.

Not even this version of the GH antenna?
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=99907

The Gray-Hovermann will not give you the ability to receive channel 4, 7, or 8.

Tsk, Tsk systems2000, you need to keep up, heh. I still cant get it to get channel 4 though.

Tsk, Tsk systems2000, you need to keep up, heh. I still cant get it to get channel 4 though.

im really excited to begin this build im going to be heading up in the beginning of may and plan on testing it out if all goes well ill post back with results
edit: on a side not i began looking at the parts list to build the antenna and i tried looking online but where would i be able to purchase narods?

but where would i be able to purchase narods?
Heh, theyre made from the same material as the driven element.

Not even this version of the GH antenna?
http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=99907
Hey, I'm not trying to be pessimistic, but it might be cheaper for you to just go Satellite.

Antennas Direct has its TV Signal Meter on sale for $29.95:

http://antennasdirect.com/sm100.html

The SM100 HDTV Signal Finder:

Is an effective and inexpensive way to aim your Antennas Direct antenna and measure performance, at a fraction of the cost of professional signal meters. The meter will detect the presence of transmissions on the frequencies that most DTV stations broadcast.

Compact, lightweight and easy to use:

* The SM100 is useful in antenna aiming, especially rooftop installations
* Integrated filters are designed to detect digital television broadcasts only
* Commercial grade meters cost as much as $700
* Test signal strength at the antenna or weak signals from cables & splitters
* Includes a 9V battery

Note: The SM100 meter will not identify specific HDTV broadcasts by channel number. A commercial grade field meter is advised for those capabilities.

This special is good through April 30, 2009.

Hmm, 5 leds for the meter instead of a simple analog meter.

Antennas Direct has its TV Signal Meter on sale for $29.95:

http://antennasdirect.com/sm100.html

The SM100 HDTV Signal Finder:

this special is good through April 30, 2009.
Would this meter work on low vhf - I have PBS staying on CH 3 and it always gives me problems.
Bernieoc

Would this meter work on low vhf - I have PBS staying on CH 3 and it always gives me problems.
Bernieoc
If you have a separate lo-VHF antenna and connected the meter to that, it should do fine. It doesn't work by individual channels, but apparently on the signal strength coming from the antenna. I have a hi-VHF channel that I'm having trouble with, so I'll just uncouple the hi-VHF antenna from the combiner and aim it independently from the UHF antenna. I just ordered it and I won't get it until Friday.

By the information below, I don't think it's of any use on any channel below 14 or above 51.

Signals above 700 MHz are filtered to minimize detection of cellular and post 2009 wireless broadband transmissions. Broadcasts below 470mhz are filtered to minimize detection of amateur radio, public safety, FM radio etc…

Would this meter work on low vhf - I have PBS staying on CH 3 and it always gives me problems.
Bernieoc

The meter is not at all useful with weak signals. It is designed to peak up on the strongest signal.

The meter is not at all useful with weak signals. It is designed to peak up on the strongest signal. I can tell you first hand that this meter will not work in fringe areas. I hooked up the clearstream100 to my wineguard 7698 in my fringe area and it failed to pick up any signal at all. I am 43 miles to towers and nothing registers on it. The CS100 has 4 leds that start at 60,70,80, and 90. Any signal below that as mine is does not register on it. You are right that it is not what I thought it would do. Just use your tv meter to get the best signal.

I am adding a Hi VHF antenna to my CM4228 that I have already installed. I've also decided after reading some more details on antenna grounding that I should upgrade/fix the grounding on the CM4228. I am going to replace the 10 gauge copper with 8 gauge copper, and also replace the 4 foot ground rod with an 8 foot ground rod.

So, my understanding is that the ground wire from the antenna mast is supposed to be one continuous piece of wire from the mast to the ground rod, i.e. no splices/connections. I kind of did this with my initial installation, with the exception being that I ran the ground wire through the grounding block for the RG6 coax where it entered the house and then continued on up to the antenna mast. So there are no breaks in the wire, but it is serving two purposes. Is this OK, or is it a really bad idea? In a sense I may be introducing induced current from the mast into the RG6 shield, but that same current would probably be present at the antenna connection also.

I am going to be putting up a second mast for the VHF antenna (the CM4228 is mounted on the front of my chimney, with attachments above and below the antenna, making it really stable, whereas the VHF antenna being a Yagi will have to go above the chimney, attached to a different mast). So I will be running at least two, and possibly four separate ground wires (depending on if it is OK to run the ground wire through the coax grounding block) down to the grounding rod. Is it OK if I lightly twist these wires together (I understand you don't want any significant bends in the wire), or should I try to keep all of them separated?

If it is not a good idea to twist the wires together then I am thinking it would be a good idea to run a separate ground wire between the two masts. Does that make sense?

The other recommendation I've seen is that you should run a wire between the antenna ground rod and the house electrical ground rod. It also said that this wire should not run inside the house. Well that is a problem for me. My house was built (1987) before an external ground rod was required, so the ground wire from the circuit breaker box in the garage runs through the wall into the basement and is attached to the cold water supply pipe where it enters through the foundation. So, if I want to tie the two grounds together (which makes a lot of sense regarding potential ground loops) I need to run the connecting wire inside the house. Should I do that? If so, should I run it directly from the antenna ground rod to the cold water intake (a really long run), or can I run it to the circuit breaker box and connect to the ground bus there (and yes I know the dangers involved in working inside the circuit breaker box)?

Look here, scroll down to "The NEC requirement" http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html



I am going to replace the 10 gauge copper with 8 gauge copper, and also replace the 4 foot ground rod with an 8 foot ground rod.

6 gauge is the NEC requirement.

Look here, scroll down to "The NEC requirement" http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html

6 gauge is the NEC requirement.

6 gauge is the requirement for connecting between the house ground and the ground rod. 8 gauge can be used from the antenna to the grounding rod. But thanks for the pointer, it is the first one that actually showed connecting the antenna grounding rod to the house ground in the circuit breaker box. That will save me a lot of copper wire (6 gauge copper is over $1 per foot).

So, my understanding is that the ground wire from the antenna mast is supposed to be one continuous piece of wire from the mast to the ground rod, i.e. no splices/connections. I kind of did this with my initial installation, with the exception being that I ran the ground wire through the grounding block for the RG6 coax where it entered the house and then continued on up to the antenna mast. So there are no breaks in the wire, but it is serving two purposes. Is this OK, or is it a really bad idea? In a sense I may be introducing induced current from the mast into the RG6 shield, but that same current would probably be present at the antenna connection also.

I am going to be putting up a second mast for the VHF antenna (the CM4228 is mounted on the front of my chimney, with attachments above and below the antenna, making it really stable, whereas the VHF antenna being a Yagi will have to go above the chimney, attached to a different mast). So I will be running at least two, and possibly four separate ground wires (depending on if it is OK to run the ground wire through the coax grounding block) down to the grounding rod. Is it OK if I lightly twist these wires together (I understand you don't want any significant bends in the wire), or should I try to keep all of them separated?

If it is not a good idea to twist the wires together then I am thinking it would be a good idea to run a separate ground wire between the two masts. Does that make sense?

The other recommendation I've seen is that you should run a wire between the antenna ground rod and the house electrical ground rod. It also said that this wire should not run inside the house. Well that is a problem for me. My house was built (1987) before an external ground rod was required, so the ground wire from the circuit breaker box in the garage runs through the wall into the basement and is attached to the cold water supply pipe where it enters through the foundation. So, if I want to tie the two grounds together (which makes a lot of sense regarding potential ground loops) I need to run the connecting wire inside the house. Should I do that? If so, should I run it directly from the antenna ground rod to the cold water intake (a really long run), or can I run it to the circuit breaker box and connect to the ground bus there (and yes I know the dangers involved in working inside the circuit breaker box)?

The way you passed the antenna grounding wire through the coax grounding block is correct.

Use a split bolt connector to join the grounding wires on the roof and bring a single wire down. That will give a good connection if you clean the wires to bright metal and make the connection tight. You would want to anchor this connector to a mast or mount and have the single wire coming out anchored as well. Run a single wire to the farthest point needed and make the connections there.

If your grounding electrode for the house is a water pipe then the bonding wire for your antenna ground has to enter the house. You could fix this bonding wire to the antenna grounding rod.



6 gauge is the requirement for connecting between the house ground and the ground rod. 8 gauge can be used from the antenna to the grounding rod. But thanks for the pointer, it is the first one that actually showed connecting the antenna grounding rod to the house ground in the circuit breaker box. That will save me a lot of copper wire (6 gauge copper is over $1 per foot).

I would not bring a bonding wire for ground into the breaker box. Going into there to make a connection is an unnecessary hazard. Making a connection like that in there is an unnecessary hazard.

The antenna grounding rod has to be bonded to your house electrical system ground, this can be done at the grounding electrode (water pipe or grounding rod) or to the conductor connecting the grounding bar of your breaker box to its grounding electrode. Connect to the grounding wire just outside your breaker box if that is the closest point.

(6 gauge copper is over $1 per foot).

Only if you buy it at Lowes or Home Depot. I recently bought some from my local electrical supply house for 32 cents a foot. I was quoted 28 cents from the other local electrical supply house further down the road. Just look in your yellow pages and call around for prices. On 50 feet, that amounts to over $30 in savings, so its worth your while to do so.

Connect to the grounding wire just outside your breaker box if that is the closest point.
Yeah, theres no sense to remove the metal face place on the breaker box to make an internal connection.

Only if you buy it at Lowes or Home Depot. I recently bought some from my local electrical supply house for 32 cents a foot

Around here a lot of them won't sell to anyone not "in the business". It's a racket.

Always use the shortest possible distance between bonding points. There is nothing wrong with daisy-chaining your ground wire, as long as you have the right size wire. I believe the NEC rules require that there is no more than 5' distance after breaching into the interior of the building before you need to bond the ground wire. Use another split-bolt to bond to the house ground.

As for bends, think of it like a high-speed highway. You want smooth gradual bends, not 25mph type.

All grounding needs to be tied together to prevent electrical shock.

Where a ground connection has a significant resistance, the approximation of zero potential is no longer valid. Stray voltages or earth potential rise effects will occur, which may create noise in signals or if large enough will produce an electric shock hazard. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_%28electricity%29)

Does VHF or UHF benefit more from height, or does it make a difference? I'm trying to decide which antenna to put at the top of my mast.

300ohm:
Great, thanks!

UHF does. It takes more power to transmit at UHF frequencies for the same distance. Also, UHF signals follow the curve of the earth less than VHF frequencies.

And UHF antennas are smaller and lighter than VHF antennas. So you would want the UHF antenna on top of the mast above the VHF antenna.

Does VHF or UHF benefit more from height, or does it make a difference? I'm trying to decide which antenna to put at the top of my mast.

Each situation is unique. But, if your signals are strong enough, it won't matter.

First compare your tvfool data at the two heights and see what happens to the two bands.

Next, consider if there are any ground reflections that may make the VHF antenna work better at a lower height.

Finally, try it both ways to see which one works better.

Does VHF or UHF benefit more from height, or does it make a difference? I'm trying to decide which antenna to put at the top of my mast.

look at your signal prediction reports to get what info it has. vhf can bend around terrain some.

tv signals can be reflected from the ground surface or objects causing constructive and destructive interference. each antenna's best spot might be your height determining factor, a foot or two up or down could make a big difference.

I have been entirely too busy to post lately, but after the initial transition date, I noticed something...

Fox 55 in Wausau, WI was never allowed to broadcast in digital because it was a station that was created after the original DTV Table of Allotments was created. When the February 17th date came around, they began broadcasting on physical channel 31. It took them a few weeks to iron out some problems and then they were up and running at full strength. I installed a dedicated antenna for this channel. I ran it through a pre-amp and down to my basement where I used a channel 31 Jointenna to combine it to the rest of my system.

The Jointenna works great. In fact, it works better for me than advertized. The Jointenna is supposed to do exactly what it does...insert a single channel antenna into a system without combiner loss. However, according to the manufacturer and retailers (as well as here on the forums) the Jointenna will attenuate adjacent channels due to its crossover slope. In fact, I have read in many places that it will attenuate channels up to 3 channels on either side of the inserted channel.

I have not seen this. I have a very weak and snowy low power religious station on channel 30 and a full power analog network channel that has not yet gone dark on channel 32. Neither of these adjacent signals have been decreased by the Jointenna as far as I can tell. The low power station looks the same as it did and the network station is not ghosting or showing any other artifacts of a weaker signal.

I just thought I would report that my adjacent channels seem unchanged after installing the jointenna. All other channels are still as strong as they were and the new channel is also perfect, even though it is 62 miles away and is received by an antenna mounted in my attic.

Bill

The meter is not at all useful with weak signals. It is designed to peak up on the strongest signal.

Could not agree more....you get what you pay for.

The only situation, I can think of, where the Antennas Direct SM100 HDTV Signal Finder might be useful....is where all the signals of interest come from the same transmitting tower....and even then, it's all about strength and not quality (i.e. multi-path).

Here is a DIY article using the LTC5508.

http://www.newsvhf.com/news0401.pdf

I thought about injecting an off-set signal (from a signal generator) into a mixer and then some filtering, one could make this into a frequency selective device.

However, the bottom line....(although this would help with directionality).....save your money and use whatever signal meter(s) are available in your tuner.

...insert a single channel antenna into a system without combiner loss.
There is always a loss and never a profit, heh.


In fact, I have read in many places that it will attenuate channels up to 3 channels on either side of the inserted channel.

I have not seen this.
Thats good to know. I didnt think they could clip the frequencies so closely with a mass produced device.

Here is a DIY article using the LTC5508.


Cool looking bent tower !

However, the bottom line....(although this would help with directionality).....save your money and use whatever signal meter(s) are available in your tuner.

Yep. And factor in the signal meters in your decision when buying a new TV set.

"There is always a loss and never a profit, heh."

OK...yes, there may be a .5db loss, but not the 3.5db loss you get with a normal splitter turned backwards and definitely no interference between the 4 antennas I have hooked together.

I ran it through a pre-amp and down to my basement where I used a channel 31 Jointenna to combine it to the rest of my system.

The Jointenna works great. In fact, it works better for me than advertized. The Jointenna is supposed to do exactly what it does...insert a single channel antenna into a system without combiner loss. However, according to the manufacturer and retailers (as well as here on the forums) the Jointenna will attenuate adjacent channels due to its crossover slope. In fact, I have read in many places that it will attenuate channels up to 3 channels on either side of the inserted channel.

I have not seen this. I have a very weak and snowy low power religious station on channel 30 and a full power analog network channel that has not yet gone dark on channel 32. Neither of these adjacent signals have been decreased by the Jointenna as far as I can tell. The low power station looks the same as it did and the network station is not ghosting or showing any other artifacts of a weaker signal.

I just thought I would report that my adjacent channels seem unchanged after installing the jointenna. All other channels are still as strong as they were and the new channel is also perfect, even though it is 62 miles away and is received by an antenna mounted in my attic.




From all I've read here, your situation is an anomoly (sp?). Perhaps there's more going on there than you realize.

In my own situation, I can't insert my channel 30 jointenna into my lead because it knocks my channel 33 signal down from a perfectly reliable level of 87 to a cutting in and out level that tops out at 62. On the other hand, my channel 14 jointenna admits enough of channel 17 into my lead that I may not need to buy a channel 17 jointenna ! And when I bought one of my others (41 I think) it worked so poorly that I had to send it back into the factory (not the vendor) to have its tuning reworked.

If you opened this issue up for more discussion, I bet we could hear many stories of success and failure regarding jointennas. It's a pity that there doesn't seem to be any product in between the jointenna and the Tinlee products.

It's a pity that there doesn't seem to be any product in between the jointenna and the Tinlee products.
True and totally sympathsize, but consider the total market $ sales a year for that type of specific product. Not that impressive.

Please do report back. It's always good to know how things work out and we may be of additional assistance.

All the best,

Rick


I installed the AntennaCraft HBU22 this morning. I faced it North, with the hope of getting the Summerville and Ladson stations (18 & 26). I was expecting to get 20 as well (off the back side as it is due south). According to TV fool, 20 is only 5.8 miles away.
From the attic, the HBU22 really does not pick up anything I did not already get on the homemade antenna (also in the attic w/ 25 ft. of new RG6).

I may try the HBU22 on the roof, as I initially planned. If I do, I will write up the results.
Thanks for the help and suggestions.

http://www.tvfool.com/modeling/tmp/5773/a68/525dbea/Radar-Digital.png

My home is located on the highest elevation in the city. Unfortunately, the city is installing a 285’ water tower about 1500’ from me home. In other words, this monster will be next to my home.

Now, thinking like a total TV Geek, this may open the door for “catching” some DX signals. My stack of XG-91’s is 56’ in the air and would not be in direct sight of the water tower, so I am thinking the following:

1) Purchase a pair of the Antenna’s Direct DB8’s and stack them horizontally pointing them at an angle which aligns them to directly point at the edges of the water tower. They will only need to be off the ground by 10 foot or so as they are in direct sight of the tower and the purpose is to catch scatter.

2) I am choosing the DB8’s as they have a wider beamwidth. Actually, stacking them vertical would help more.

The goal is to catch reflected scatter off the sides of the water tower. Since, I am so close to the tower, I think this experiment will actually have some positive results.

Ideas or comments..

I installed the AntennaCraft HBU22 this morning. I faced it North, with the hope of getting the Summerville and Ladson stations (18 & 26).

?????

Try pointing it West North West to get 18 & 26.

I installed the AntennaCraft HBU22 this morning. I faced it North, with the hope of getting the Summerville and Ladson stations (18 & 26). I was expecting to get 20 as well (off the back side as it is due south). According to TV fool, 20 is only 5.8 miles away.
From the attic, the HBU22 really does not pick up anything I did not already get on the homemade antenna (also in the attic w/ 25 ft. of new RG6).

I may try the HBU22 on the roof, as I initially planned. If I do, I will write up the results.
Thanks for the help and suggestions.

Thanks for the update! Attic installations can be a bit dicey and require checking many locations for the hot spot. The hbu 22 will likely work much better on the roof, but even then, requires checking multiple mounting locations and heights to determine optimal mount location. Good luck and keep us posted! :)

Now, thinking like a total TV Geek, this may open the door for “catching” some DX signals.
You darn right you may ! I was thinking of getting a bounce off the Goodyear blimps that occasionally go by, but my crazy DXing days are over, heh.

2) I am choosing the DB8’s as they have a wider beamwidth. Actually, stacking them vertical would help more.



Quit spending money and build your own DBGHs or one of mclapps M8's, heh.

Is the DB2 available in any B&M stores? I can only find it online.

?????

Try pointing it West North West to get 18 & 26.

I tried West and that didn't work. WNW has a few trusses in the way. Based on my attic construction, I am pretty much stuck w/ N, S, E, or W.

From all I've read here, your situation is an anomoly (sp?). Perhaps there's more going on there than you realize.

Perhaps his is mistuned.

From the hdprimer site:

Join-Tenna - These devices, made by Channel Master, are single channel diplexers (combiners). They permit a single channel antenna to share a feed-line with a wideband antenna. However they mess up reception for the adjacent channels. Thus a Join-Tenna cannot be used for a channel adjacent to another channel you want. (Since there are gaps between channels 4-5, 6-7, and 13-14, this restriction does not apply to them.)



The Channel Master website says Join-Tennas are available only for channels 6-69. But units for 2-6 are sometimes findable. Join-tenna is missing from the new Channel Master catalog, so these devices might not be available much longer.



There is a unique Join-Tenna for each VHF channel. But UHF Join-Tennas are adjustable, and there are just three of them for covering 14-29, 30-49, and 50-69. The seller will adjust it for you. But they tend to be a little slow, so acquiring one of these can take some time. It is usually not practical for you to adjust it yourself.

If it was mistuned, something would definitely be messed up. However, as I said, all of my digital channels are coming in perfectly and the adjacent analog signals are coming in the same as before as far as I can tell. I would have expected to lose them completely, and I can't see any difference.

The all channel UHF points to 92 degrees magnetic while the new channel 31 UHF points at 326 degrees magnetic. The station it receives while mounted in my attic is 62 miles away and is 2 edge reception.

You can say what you want, but I am not seeing considerable loss at the two adjacent channels and the channel it is tuned to is received at 100%.

Bill

But UHF Join-Tennas are adjustable, and there are just three of them for covering 14-29, 30-49, and 50-69. The seller will adjust it for you.

Hmmm. Which of the three join-tennas do you have ?

Mine is factory tuned for channel 31, so I am sure it would be a 30-49 model. Actually, this is the only one with adjacent channels for me, and one of them goes away post transition. I also have a channel 11 Jointenna and have ordered a channel 16 Jointenna.

There was a discussion of the join-tenna here earlier : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=546066&page=44

Have you tried reversing it to see the effects ?

I have seen a triple vertical stack of antennas. How much more gain is had over a stack of 2.
I know having a double stack has 3db (minus coupler & cable loss) gain over a single array.

I tried West and that didn't work. WNW has a few trusses in the way. Based on my attic construction, I am pretty much stuck w/ N, S, E, or W.

hmmm......there's something about this that reminds me about an old joke....something about a guy that lost a valueable coin in his basement, but he looks for it outside because the light is better there.:rolleyes:

You might try to build your own antenna. There's a couple of designs online here that do not layout horizontally, they're mostly vertical (the DBGHs or one of mclapps). Think of a thick garment bag....if it can be hung in your attic, broadside to the WNW, then you have a good shot of one of the home made antennas working.

I have seen a triple vertical stack of antennas. How much more gain is had over a stack of 2.
I know having a double stack has 3db (minus coupler & cable loss) gain over a single array.
What Ive seen from modeling with a triple stack, it gives little to almost none additional gain, especially considering the extra effort. You want to stack in pairs to maintain the symetry.

I have seen a triple vertical stack of antennas. How much more gain is had over a stack of 2?

The theory says 1.7 db.

The actual gain depends on the stacking distance and combiner losses.

Quiz time! Let's play What's wrong with this picture?

A
http://g.imagehost.org/0720/kopb_a.png

B
http://g.imagehost.org/0361/kopb_b.png

C
http://f.imagehost.org/0574/kopb_c.png

D
http://g.imagehost.org/0715/abstract.png

E
http://g.imagehost.org/0546/flying_dots.png

Frame A is a night scene, it is supposed to be dark.

D looks like what I get on my Channel Master or Zenith CECB when the signal is right on the edge of the "digital cliff."

E looks like an analog channel with some impulse noise.

The others look like tuner troubles. Have you tried other tuners ?

I love D. It looks like an impressionistic painting. Do it again.

C looks like horiz sync problem.

B looks like harmonic from another xmtr on that freq.

I agree with jtbell on E.

B looks like harmonic from another xmtr on that freq.

The OPB logo looks fine. It's a problem with the program itself.

I love D. It looks like an impressionistic painting.

As opposed to the blocky "Mondrian" school of many other receivers. :D

I have seen a triple vertical stack of antennas. How much more gain is had over a stack of 2.
I know having a double stack has 3db (minus coupler & cable loss) gain over a single array.
A typical, inexpensive two-way RF Combiner/Splitter contains a Hybrid Transformer
and an internal resistor that dissipates mis-match energy.
If the signals on the two ports are perfectly EQUAL and IN-PHASE, there
is no mis-match energy wasted and the output is 3 dB higher than either input,
less the internal losses, hence 2.5 dB is MAX combining gain.

If the two input signals are not perfectly matched in signal strength and PHASE,
the difference is wasted in the internal mis-match resistor. If one of the antennas
happens to be located in a multipath null, contributing very little signal to one
of the ports, the mis-match loss could negate all combining loss, resulting
in a net LOSS of perhaps 3.5 dB. [The same loss as pointing in different directions.]
http://www.macom.com/Application%20Notes/pdf/m568.pdf
http://www.macom.com/Application%20Notes/pdf/m560.pdf

In a THREE-WAY RF Combiner/Splitter there are a pair of two-way Combiners.
The first operates as described above for the first pair of antennas.
The second combines the OUTPUT of the first two-way Combiner with
the signal coming from the third antenna....unfortunately, when the inputs
to the first combiner are equal and in-phase, the output signal will be
2.5 dB HIGHER than the signal coming from the third antenna, resulting
in excessive mis-match loss. TWO antennas will nearly always be better than THREE.

Four antenna combiners performance is even more "complicated".....which
is why expensive Stripline Couplers make more sense....they only have a few
tenths of a dB internal loss and DO NOT require matching of signal levels...

That said, there is an additional factor to consider....DIVERSITY.
Multipath nulls can vary between antenna locations and heights, esp. in attics.
One of the antennas may pick up Chxx but not Chyy and the other antenna
picks up Chyy but not Chxx. Even though there is a loss in the combiner,
the signals may be strong enough so you receive both channels,
whereas with only one antenna you would not get both.

As opposed to the blocky "Mondrian" school of many other receivers.

Or a Monet, when he was really, really drunk ?? :p

Hey guys,
Did anyone modify their 4228hd as what Ken did to improve their gains?

Samstom, your preferences do not allow you to receive private messages. I cannot respond to yours.

Four antenna combiners performance is even more "complicated".....which
is why expensive Stripline Couplers make more sense....they only have a few
tenths of a dB internal loss and DO NOT require matching of signal levels and phase...

A stripline coupler doesn't require matching signal levels, but still requires matching phase.

Oops, I fixed post above...

Ken Nist updated his analysis of the new CM4228HD to include VHF:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

He found VHF performance of unmodified CM4228HD was much
better than RabbitEars, but had gain loss notches on Ch7 and Ch9
(Ch9 loss due to formation of a bi-polar radiation pattern).
For comparison, original CM4228 had gain notches on Ch7 and
a small portion on the boundary between Ch11 & Ch12.

He analyzed alternative modifications to the CM4228HD to
improve UHF performance (replace feedline with combiner)
and isolated the reflectors from the rest of the antenna to
eliminate the Ch9 gain loss notch.
[But he didn't rerun to determine effect on UHF performance...]

Hmmm, so what happens when isolate reflectors on original CM4228???

Hi towerguy,
Can u check ur PM?

A - 60Hz hum? Poor analog retransmission? VITS?

B - More analog VITS? 2 different signals?

C - High error rate?

D - Multipath?

E - Poorly skewed satellite feed?

> Quiz time! Let's play What's wrong with this picture?

A is NTSC channel 10. I only noticed the problem on dark
night scenes like this. And of these problems, it is the only
one I have found a fix for. The problem with A is a bit subtle,
perhaps it isn't showing up on your screens. Using the color
editor in xv and playing with intensity shows the problem more
clearly.

A2
http://f.imagehost.org/0765/kopb_a_colortweak.png

rabbit73 writes:
> I love D. It looks like an impressionistic painting.

I was thinking abstract, but impressionist could work. What does
it give you an impression of?

> Do it again.

This one isn't quite as good.

F
http://f.imagehost.org/0070/abstract_2.png

And the quails (I think?) caught in a time-space rift.

G
http://f.imagehost.org/0347/kopb_g.png

I love the various guesses. At least we can get a little
entertainment out of these problems.

Ken Nist updated his analysis of the new CM4228HD to include VHF:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html
...

Has anyone in a market already carrying digital VHF highband compared their actual spectrum analyzer plots with any of the 4228 VHF hghband model's computer generated predictions? My local 7, 9, 11 and 13 will eventually be digital, and I will be surprised if any of the computer simulated plots come close to approximating reality.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say A is multipath, with the lines of light and dark being a moire pattern rather than harmonic interference. Only on night scenes because the moire pattern is caused by some periodicity in the source noise that appears in low light; in lighter scenes you'd see barely perceptible ghosting. But then, I could be totally off base.

E is impulse noise. The source is periodic and intermittent, about 120Hz. Could be a noisy AC source (once every peak), or an engine of some sort.

B looks like a failing amplifier.

D and F look like a weak digital signal.

C looks like a problem on their end, as does G.

Having grown up in the days of taking turns holding the rabbit ears and aluminum foil with my siblings (I'm 50), it took me a lot of time to decide if I wanted to make an investment in a UHF antenna set-up. Seeing how this original topic invited posting of experiences and equipment, I figured I'd share mine.

I got sick of paying my cable company $120/mo for cable TV w/Internet, with another increase planned shortly. With the help of this site (I lurked for quite some time reading what other people thought of equipment), I purchased the following:

Channel Master 4228HD UHF Antenna ($64.95 @ Warren Electronics)
Wineguard RCDT09A Digital To Analog Converter ($19.99 @ Amazon w/coupon)
Channel Master 7777 Pre-Amplifier ($51.99 @ Warren Electronics)
Channel Master 9067 Chimney Mounts ($21.16/pr @ Warren Electronics)
NTE TB-105 Rotor Support Bearing ($21.95 @ Warren Electronics)
2 - 10' Sections of 1 1/2" Conduit Tubing ($18.98 @ Lowes)

In addition, I was able to secure a FREE Channel Master Rotator through a local advertisement and a FREE VHF antenna that a neighbor was throwing out (in excellent condition)

Shipping for all these items came to $34.94

Total Investment: $212.01

Forgetting the death defying act of a 50 y/o climbing onto a steep pitched roof with no help and somehow actually hauling the completed set-up in one piece and mounting it without breaking his neck, or having a heart attack, these were the results:

19 HD Channels (Crystal Clear)
8 Analog Channels (2 Good, 4 Fair, 2 Poor)

I am amazed at all the stations I am bringing in!

I sit in a valley. My home is abutted against the bottom of a ridge about 100' high behind me. In front of me about 1/8 mile away is another ridge about 150' high. Both are in direct line of the transmitters, so bringing in these HD channels is unbelievable to me.

Yes, I'm going to miss my History, Discovery, and Financial channels that cable provided, but considering I'm going to save $70/mo (I'm keeping my cable internet connection), I'm willing to do without them if it means not giving the cable company $840/yr to watch television!

As for me, I'm spreading the word to my friends that OTA Digital is an entirely different animal from the days of Analog TV. I had a hard time believing that reception would be much better than what I remembered. I'm an enthusiast now!

http://predictiontrader.com/images/antenna.jpg

Channel Master 4228HD UHF Antenna ($64.95 @ Warren Electronics)

You may want to look at the link holl_ands posted above and get even more stations. At stock, the CM4228HD is little better than the CM4221HD.

Ken Nist updated his analysis of the new CM4228HD to include VHF:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/TemporaryPage.html

Has anyone in a market already carrying digital VHF highband compared their actual spectrum analyzer plots with any of the 4228 VHF hghband model's computer generated predictions? My local 7, 9, 11 and 13 will eventually be digital, and I will be surprised if any of the computer simulated plots come close to approximating realuity.
L.A. also doesn't transition until 13 June...grumble, grumble....

BTW: I've also heard VHF doesn't penetrate into buildings as well as UHF,
something counter-intuitive, but apparently UHF can diffract into a building
via windows better than VHF.....but I'll bet VHF leaks through stucco better....

======================================
The NOISE component of the propagation equation is simple to calculate for UHF,
but fluctuates quite a bit at Hi-VHF and is exceedingly uncertain at Lo-VHF.
Man-made noise can vary 20+ dB from location to location depending on
whether located near an industrial area with many arc-welders and lots of
brush-type motors (aka spark-gap transmitters), fluorescent lights, switching
power supplies (PCs), AC power lines...also vehicles (YMMV...a lot!!!):
http://www.mstv.org/docs/techinfo.pdf
http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/pub/ntia-rpt/02-390/02-390.pdf

See section 4 in fol. for summary of "Radio Noise", Rec. ITU-R P.372:
http://www2.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/ra/topics/research/topics/emc/mmnoise/mmnoise.pdf
Apparently Figure 4-2 is a (developed?) world-wide average (really?????).
It may be a one size fits all graph, but it's apparently all we got.....

Atmospheric noise is also inadequately modeled. In the HF band (below Ch2)
it fluctuates 40+ dB between locations and is seasonal (summer lightning storms).
It seems to be ignored in current FCC model, although it is a problem for Lo-VHF.

Fam(dB) indicates how much the (world-wide?, long term averaged) noise
exceeds the Thermal Noise floor. For UHF, Fam(dB) is assumed to be zero.
For Hi-VHF, the average noise is 5-20 dB higher, from rural to business,
and Lo-VHF noise is even higher.

Since TVFool (et.al.) doesn't ask if rural vs business and whether summer or not,
I assume they HAVE NOT incorporated these significant refinements re man-made
and atmospheric noise (also leaves out clutter loss per FCC OET-72)...YMMV...

In comments to FCC, Hammett & Edison (for Echostar) indicated that
the FCC's ILLR (ITM) Propagation Prediction Program did NOT adequately
address VHF Man-Made Noise levels:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-199A3.pdf
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/documents/reports/SHVERA/SHVERA-FCC-05-199.pdf
Search for "man made noise".

BTW: I've also heard VHF doesn't penetrate into buildings as well as UHF,
something counter-intuitive, but apparently UHF can diffract into a building
via windows better than VHF.....but I'll bet VHF leaks through stucco better....
Yeah, I just recently read very something similiar about the difference between the 2.4 GHz wifi band and the 5 GHz wifi band. It does seem counter-intuitive to me too, but may be true.

Atmospheric noise is also inadequately modeled. In the HF band (below Ch2) it fluctuates 40+ dB between locations and is seasonal (summer lightning storms).It seems to be ignored in current FCC model, although it is a problem for Lo-VHF.
I have noticed that in the past with my analog channel 3, which goes away in June. My analog channel 6, which will remain on channel 6 for digital, didnt seem to be very affected by lightning storms. It will be interesting to see the effect on digital.

I posted this $30 special on the Antennas Direct SM100 meter a few days ago, and it wasn't well reviewed in this forum. http://antennasdirect.com/sm100.html

I got one and tried it at two locations. At the first location, I have clear LOS to the towers located 14 miles away, using a hi-VHF and a UHF screen combined. The only VHF on ch 13 had been dropping out. I connected the meter and immediately saw the LED bouncing between 60 and 80. I swapped out the coax and got a stable 80 signal. Tried aiming the antenna off angle with no change to signal strength. Result: the meter helped me quickly diagnose a bad coax.
The second location is a remote garage on the same property with trees between the antenna and towers. The meter allowed me to aim the antenna so that it occasionally peaked at 70, but the end result was that I saw that I needed to move the antenna 18" to get past a cedar tree that I hadn't realized was in the path. I had actually been off at my guess of the tower location because I didn't have LOS. Result: the meter helped me quickly determine that the antenna needed to be moved.
Final analysis: The meter definitely has limitations with LED lights for each 10 units of signal so a high degree of accuracy is not possible, but, for $30, it helped me quickly resolve a couple of problems by myself that would have taken two patient people a lot longer.

> A typical, inexpensive two-way RF Combiner/Splitter contains
> a Hybrid Transformer and an internal resistor that dissipates
> mis-match energy.

Can anyone recommend a web page that has a schematic for these,
along with the stripline couplers, diplexors, filters, etc. ?

For one thing, I've been wondering why a 4-way splitter has more loss
(7.4 dB) than putting 2-ways in series (3.5 + 3.5 = 7.0 dB).

> BTW: I've also heard VHF doesn't penetrate into buildings
> as well as UHF, something counter-intuitive, but apparently
> UHF can diffract into a building via windows better than VHF
> .....but I'll bet VHF leaks through stucco better....

VHF definitely gets through foil-backed insulation better than UHF.
And would get through most (all?) building materials better.

Perhaps someone has a shielded building with a window large enough
for a UHF aperture, but not large enough for VHF? Or has some
VHF specific problem (interference?) but is blaming the building?

I've read that you can get extra directors for the XG91
to increase the directionality/gain. Has anyone modeled this?
I'd be interested in seeing the plots. In particular
the new beamwidth would be useful to know, and of course
the gain.

I've also read that this makes the antenna floppy/droopy,
reducing the improvement. Is there a fix for this?

I've been recommending the XG91, and some people could
benefit from even more gain so it would be nice to
know if the extra directors would be a useful addition.

I've also read that this makes the antenna floppy/droopy,
reducing the improvement. Is there a fix for this?

If you extended the mast above the antenna attachment point and put an eye or guy ring on it, you could attach a wire between the mast and the end of the boom to support it. You could probably stiffen the boom up by inserting some rod or tubing into it (especially between sections), if you could get the right size.

Has anyone modeled this?
I'd be interested in seeing the plots. In particular
the new beamwidth would be useful to know, and of course
the gain.
I havent modeled it in particular, but have modeled other antennas with directors. Basically, youll have to double the number of directors to get appreciable more gain, like 2db. That makes for a very long boom. The beamwidth will be narrower.

I've also read that this makes the antenna floppy/droopy,
reducing the improvement. Is there a fix for this?
Youll need a good support boom structure to keep it in line. Taking all costs into consideration, youre much better off vertically stacking 2 XG91s.

> A typical, inexpensive two-way RF Combiner/Splitter contains
> a Hybrid Transformer and an internal resistor that dissipates
> mis-match energy.

Can anyone recommend a web page that has a schematic for these,
along with the stripline couplers, diplexors, filters, etc. ?

For one thing, I've been wondering why a 4-way splitter has more loss
(7.4 dB) than putting 2-ways in series (3.5 + 3.5 = 7.0 dB).
Typical RF Splitter/Combiner is a simple Transformer in a "Hybrid" configuration:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_transformer

Fol. Minicircuits App Note has a good photo:
http://www.minicircuits.com/pages/pdfs/an10002.pdf

Analysis is provided in fol. Philips App Note, sec 6.7:
http://www.et.fh-trier.de/diplom/Team/berres/downloadbereich/Datenbl%C3%A4tter/PHILLIPS/ECO6907.pdf
High and Low Frequency Compensation via internal capacitors
can improve broad-band loss...but can block DC voltage (see Sec 5).
DC Pass Thru can be restored with inductor(s) from output to input(s).

RF Splitter/Combiner specs can oversimplify actual performance, and
different manufactures may chose to state either "typical", "minimum"
or "maximum guaranteed" numbers....so don't read too much into the tenths...

In App Note above insertion loss varies with frequency....it isn't a single number.

==================================
A Wilkinson Combiner is usually constructed with numerous stages in order
to cover a very wide bandwidth. Hence a copper circuit board material (a Stripline)
would normally be used for VHF/UHF bands, and rarely exceeds 2:1 bandwidth:
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/wilkinson_multistage.cfm

Note similarity between a two-port lumped element Wilkinson and a
quarter-wavelength coax balun:
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/Wilkinson_splitters.cfm

BTW: If you navigate to the description for Hybrids and Magic-T's, you'll
soon be scratching your head---that's because they're quite different at
microwave frequencies!!!!

===================================
Fol. has "typical" schematic for a high-band/low-band Diplexer Filter:
http://www.n6rk.com/diplexer/diplexer.pdf
L-C values will depend on where the frequency split occurs....

Afternoon all, looking for some advice since I'm finally going to replace my Radio Shack antenna. I've read through about the last 50 pages of this thread and I'm not any more clear on what I should do. A map from TVFool is below, I'm looking for the best solution to receiving channels in the 7-51 range. Do I need two antennas or will one do the trick, which models, etc, etc.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v684/jmwhite73/Stuff/th_Radar-Digital2.png (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/jmwhite73/Stuff/?action=view&current=Radar-Digital2.png)

> A typical, inexpensive two-way RF Combiner/Splitter contains
> a Hybrid Transformer and an internal resistor that dissipates
> mis-match energy.

Can anyone recommend a web page that has a schematic for these,
along with the stripline couplers, diplexors, filters, etc. ?

For one thing, I've been wondering why a 4-way splitter has more loss
(7.4 dB) than putting 2-ways in series (3.5 + 3.5 = 7.0 dB).

If you want to combine multiple UHF antennas with the lowest possible loss consider a Gysel. It has more bandwidth than a Wilkinson.
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/Gysel.cfm
The same web site describes the Wilkinson in great detail.
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/Wilkinson_splitters.cfm

I'm looking for the best solution to receiving channels in the 7-51 range. Do I need two antennas or will one do the trick, which models, etc, etc.

You have signals from so many directions you will need to cull the undesired signals before you get too deep. (Unless you want a rotor)

A 7-69 antenna (Winegard HD7694P) aimed at 97 degrees +/- will get 48-NBC 25-CBS 42-MyN 13-PBS 38-IND 43-FOX 50-IND 11-CW 16-LPTV & 29-LPTV.

That leaves out 9-NBC at 192, 7-CBS at 197, and a big handful of additional options. A small VHF high band (Antennacraft Y5-7-13) would get 7 and 9. Try combining them with a splitter backwards.

What more interests you?

You have signals from so many directions you will need to cull the undesired signals before you get too deep. (Unless you want a rotor)

A 7-69 antenna (Winegard HD7694P) aimed at 97 degrees +/- will get 48-NBC 25-CBS 42-MyN 13-PBS 38-IND 43-FOX 50-IND 11-CW 16-LPTV & 29-LPTV.

That leaves out 9-NBC at 192, 7-CBS at 197, and a big handful of additional options. A small VHF high band (Antennacraft Y5-7-13) would get 7 and 9. Try combining them with a splitter backwards.

What more interests you?

Oops meant to say I'm mainly concerned with the Pittsburgh stations (48, 25, 13, 43, 51) and then 9-NBC & 7-CBS that you listed would be nice. That said we have a rotor now which is fine. Like most I'm sure I'd like to be able to reach out to grab as many stations as possible.

To be even more specific 43-Fox at 94 and 51-ABC at 113 are big priorities. They are the only HD Fox and ABC broadcasts we receive and both can be weak at times (especially Fox). One other thing is that there are tall trees in all directions.

I've read that you can get extra directors for the XG91
to increase the directionality/gain. Has anyone modeled this?
I'd be interested in seeing the plots. In particular
the new beamwidth would be useful to know, and of course
the gain.

I've also read that this makes the antenna floppy/droopy,
reducing the improvement. Is there a fix for this?

I've been recommending the XG91, and some people could
benefit from even more gain so it would be nice to
know if the extra directors would be a useful addition.
I previously used 2 XG91's stacked vertically and saw some improvement over 1. Hurricane Ike folded my 40 foot mast in half. When I put it back up I only used one XG91 but I removed the center section from one and inserted it into the other, making it 4 sections instead of 3 and moved the mast clamp forward to balance the boom. From what I have observed, the gain is comparable (since there is no combiner loss) to the stacked pair but it is much more highly directional. I would estimate a beamwidth of about 10 degrees. The antenna is temporarily at 30 feet until I can get some help to push it all the way up to 50 feet (telescoping mast) and tension the guy wires. I'm pleased with the way it performs but I really have to fine tune the aiming with a rotor.:)

-ML

I havent modeled it in particular, but have modeled other antennas with directors. Basically, youll have to double the number of directors to get appreciable more gain, like 2db. That makes for a very long boom. The beamwidth will be narrower.


Youll need a good support boom structure to keep it in line. Taking all costs into consideration, youre much better off vertically stacking 2 XG91s.


Doubling the number of directors to get more gain only works on single channel antennas..on LPDAs or multiple channel antennas that does not hold true at all.....the directors are only resonant at one freq unless you tie them as active elements in a LPDA and then the gain does not rise as fast as a cut to channel yagi. I am not familiar with the XG91 but I suspect it is not a single channel yagi....

Hello Towerguy, Did u get my PM?

Hello Towerguy, Did u get my PM?

Yes. Look later.

Doubling the number of directors to get more gain only works on single channel antennas..on LPDAs or multiple channel antennas that does not hold true at all.....the directors are only resonant at one freq unless you tie them as active elements in a LPDA and then the gain does not rise as fast as a cut to channel yagi. I am not familiar with the XG91 but I suspect it is not a single channel yagi....

True, so his gain would be even less, making adding more directors relatively pointless. It would be past the point of marginal utility.

(the XG91 has craploads of directors on it already, heh. Adding more directors also narrows the bandwidth of the Corner Reflector Yagi towards the wavelength of the directors.)

Looks like the guesses have stopped, so here is what I know
about the problems.

Frame A/A2 is KOPB NTSC channel 10 with interference. Channel 10
is 192-198 MHz, so the 1st harmonic of 96-99 MHz lands here.
Thus I suspected that the interference was from FM radio.
But! Multiple FM traps, both 95-108 and 88-108 MHz, failed to
remove it. I even put a couple directly at the tuner input with
male-to-male F adapters in case it was leaking through the RG6
quad shield. Still no luck. Could the FM be *that* strong?
Seems unlikely. Could it be a different frequency? 2nd harmonic
of 64-66 Mhz ? 3rd of 48-49.5 MHz ? Something other than
harmonic distortion? It turns out that the fix was adding
ferrite sleeves around the coax just before the tuner input.
Which implies that the problem was getting in via common mode.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braid-breaker

I don't know how one would detect this problem with ATSC.
The ferrite sleeves cost less than $4 each, might help and
should not hurt anything, so I figure why not just put ferrite
on each tuner as standard procedure?

Frames B, C, and G are from the same recording. KOPB channel 27.
The ATSC/8VSB reception was perfect after FEC. So whatever caused
this was at KOPB, or upstream.

Frames D and F are from KRCW channel 33 with a ATSC/8VSB
reception problem. Signal strength 84% (should be fine)
Signal quality 90% (should be fine). Highly directional
antenna, 700 MHz low pass filter, multiple UVSJ in series
as high pass filter, ferrite. Usually comes in poorly on
two different model tuners. Occasionally comes in perfectly,
which would seem to rule out a problem with multipath.

Frame E is KOIN channel 40. The ATSC/8VSB reception was
perfect after FEC. So whatever caused this was at KOIN,
or upstream.

I don't know how one would detect this problem with ATSC.
The ferrite sleeves cost less than $4 each, might help and
should not hurt anything, so I figure why not just put ferrite
on each tuner as standard procedure?

A lot of TVs made from the 1970s to the 1990s did in fact have ferrite sleeves between the tuner and the antenna input terminals. I guess you just have to chalk that up to progress, heh. Ferrite sleeves in quantity are like pennies apiece, maybe less.

True, so his gain would be even less, making adding more directors relatively pointless. It would be past the point of marginal utility.

(the XG91 has craploads of directors on it already, heh. Adding more directors also narrows the bandwidth of the Corner Reflector Yagi towards the wavelength of the directors.)

Once again, the "theoretical" idea of what an antenna is "supposed" to do has no basis in the real world. Mlmahon, myself, and bigmoose have added that extra boom section to the 91XG, and every one of us has had NOTICEABLE signal improvement.. in my case, the signal was far more stable than the 3 boom unit, and every bit as good as the stacked pair. With the 3 boom xg-91, I had windy day dropouts (not severe, but annoying) on ALL CHANNELS except ONE, were'e talking dropout on 8 channels. After I did the fourth boom section, all 9 channels are rock steady 24/7, no dropout even during severe thunderstorm. I reccommend the fourth boom section to ANYONE, it has worked like a dream for all who have tried it.

After I did the fourth boom section, all 9 channels are rock steady 24/7, no dropout even during severe thunderstorm. I reccommend the fourth boom section to ANYONE, it had worked like a dream for all who have tried it.

OMG, you put 3 additional booms on the XG91 ? Do you have a pic ?

Are we talking apples to apples here or just the addition of 6 directors ?
The 91XG has three sections of boom and 22 element assemblies. If you do not require the extreme gain offered by the 91XG you may elect not to attach the 3rd boom section and corresponding elements (Indicated by arrow) thereby rendering a still very effective but shorter & slightly less powerful 43XG.
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/91XG_Instructions.pdf

in my case, the signal was far more stable than the 3 boom unit, and every bit as good as the stacked pair.
If youre only talking about the addition of 6 directors, then I would have to say the stacking distance between the two antennas wasnt correct. (what distance did you use ?) Stacking two identical antennas correctly should get you 2.5 dbi in additional gain (3 dbi theorectical, but not in practice), which is way more than adding 6 more directors can get you.

OMG, you put 3 additional booms on the XG91 ? Do you have a pic ?

Are we talking apples to apples here or just the addition of 6 directors ?

http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/91XG_Instructions.pdf


If youre only talking about the addition of 6 directors, then I would have to say the stacking distance between the two antennas wasnt correct. (what distance did you use ?) Stacking two identical antennas correctly should get you 2.5 dbi in additional gain (3 dbi theorectical, but not in practice), which is way more than adding 6 more directors can get you.

I only added ONE extra boom section (6 more directors) what I'm saying is that the extra 6 directors gave me just as much reliability as the double stack, they were about equal. And of course, the XG-91 with the extra boom section is much less unsightly, and easier on my rotor motor.

I only added ONE extra boom section (6 more directors) what I'm saying is that the extra 6 directors gave me just as much reliability as the double stack, they were about equal. And of course, the XG-91 with the extra boom section is much less unsightly, and easier on my rotor motor.

Where can one get ONE boom section for the XG-91? Sounds like exactly what I need.

I was talking with Rand Johnson at K&L Microwave today, about getting a couple of bandpass filters for 7-13 and 20-51. We'll see how that plays out.

I don't understand why manufacturers are taking so long to designed and produced digital OTA equipment for the Post-Transition configurations (ie. Pre-amps, Amps, Antennas, Filters, etc.). Specifically for VHF-Hi and UHF - limited to channel 51 at the high end.

I only added ONE extra boom section (6 more directors) what I'm saying is that the extra 6 directors gave me just as much reliability as the double stack, they were about equal. And of course, the XG-91 with the extra boom section is much less unsightly, and easier on my rotor motor.
I took Ken Nists XG91 model, found here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html and added 6 more of the exact same X type directors to it. The results :

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3750/xg91aplus6directorsrawg.jpg

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/3332/xg91aplus6directorsswrc.jpg

As you can see comparing the original raw gain chart to this one, adding 6 more directors gives you about .75dbi more in raw gain average. (and no additional gain on the channel 20 end) A lot less than the expected 2.5dbi practical increase from correctly ganging two identical antennas.
I suspect the spacing distance you used was off, producing less gain dead straight ahead and creating more side lobes. Similiar to the "Two Antenna Trick" found here : http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/ganging.html but not in a good way for you.

Before you ask the next logical question, ie "What is the correct spacing distance for ganging two XG-91s ?", Ill answer it, heh.
That will take a long time, as even with a dual core E5300 at 3.5GHz, the computation time with that model takes about 2.5 hours per 38 channel sweep.

What spacing between the two antennas did you use ? And you did gang horizontally, correct ?

Once again, the "theoretical" idea of what an antenna is "supposed" to do has no basis in the real world.

What ?? Do you mean I should go back to experimenting with this kind of crap again, heh. (quite a few directors on the long boom are now missing)

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6397/dscn0761r.jpg

Ive found that once the Law of Marginal Utility is broken, a fine must be paid, heh.

Where did you find Ken Nist's 91XG (aka XG91) NEC file?
I don't see it in http://www.hdtvprimer.com/SIMS/

Perhaps you can post the unmodified and modified NEC files....

Ill be darned, he took it down. I got mine last July, heh. This is a multi-page-posting one, so let me find a file hosting site.

Okay, heres the original file converted to 4nec2 :

http://www.wuala.com/300ohm/Documents/XG91a.nec

And heres the one with 6 more directors added :

http://www.wuala.com/300ohm/Documents/XG91a%20Plus6Directors.nec

See if you can download those OK.

Mattd241,

Welcome aboard!

Enjoy the free OTA HD feeds...

As a Dish Network customer On Whidbey Island, Wa, I lost access to Channel 4 (ABC) due to a contract dispute between Dish and Fisher Broadcasting. I have a 722 HD DVR with ATSC tuner so I bought and mounted a ClearStream4 Antenna and hooked it up to the Antenna In. When I re-scanned locals, it brought in 30 channels including the Dish banned channel 4. At this point I was starting to think about dumping Dish and going OTA only. Signal strengths measured between 60 and 100 on stations that are as far away as 50 miles, but splitting the signal to feed two other TV's required some amplification so I bought a CM7777 and mounted it on my mast 6' below the antenna.

Weak and strong channels across the UHF band show no improvement in strength :confused: I checked the RG6 before installation and found no opens or shorts.

I bought the CM7777 based on the many good reviews on this forum and others. I'd love to get rid of Dish Network, but need to solve this problem first. Any suggestions on where to go first with the CM7777 ?

Great Forum. Thanks in Advance for any help.

Gary

Welcome Garskiff! Nice thorough post! Could you please post your tvfool.com results for your actual location? Information from this report is invaluable for assessing your reception possibilities and situation. Also, how many total feet of cable run do you have in your set up?

Also note that the "signal strength" meters on ATSC tuners do not actually measure signal strength. They're an overall measure of signal quality. Don't expect them to scale with raw signal strength.

Since I posted my last, I had a conversation with "Ron" , a Channel Master tech. support guy, and he mentioned the same thing that jtbell was nice enough to point out about the "signal quality" meter. I've attached my TVfool image that helped me decide on the ClearStream4, and later the CM7777. I was most interested in receiving ABC,NBC,CBS and FOX. The chart is pretty ugly for all but FOX, and it may get uglier after the switch back to VHF in June. I chose the Clearstream4 with that in mind. I had planned on splitting the signal twice with cable runs of about 30' and 50', but I'm not sure that will work without an additional distribution amp.

When I add the splitter into the equation, the signal degrades enough to cause drop outs with a drop in the "quality" indication. It's as if the amp isn't doing anything after I attach the splitter. I didn't terminate the open connection, but thought it would be isolated from the other output.

Thanks y'all,

Gary

Do you notice anything on the analog side with and w/o the pre-amp?

As for your VHF concerns, how do analog 9, 11 & 13 look on the C4? Despite the marketing claims, I would not expect the C4 to do all that well on upper VHF.

If the 7777 wasn't getting power and you were passing signals through it, the signals would be a lot worse. However, make sure that you don't have any splits, etc., between the PIM (power module) and the pre-amp itself.

I'm also concerned about overload. Some of the signals could be too strong for the 7777. Have you tried turning the C4 to other angles to see if it helps?

I had planned on splitting the signal twice with cable runs of about 30' and 50', but I'm not sure that will work without an additional distribution amp.

You should be able to do that with the CM7777 and no additional distribution amp (which would add more noise). Maybe your CM7777 unit is defective ? It happens.

When I add the splitter into the equation, the signal degrades enough to cause drop outs with a drop in the "quality" indication. It's as if the amp isn't doing anything after I attach the splitter. I didn't terminate the open connection, but thought it would be isolated from the other output.
FWIW, when you do add a splitter the splitter you use should be a power-pass splitter (for example like a Holland GHS-2P) to pass the DC from the CM7777's power injector to only the CM7777 and not to the "other" TV.

Thanks all,

I'm splitting the signal between the TV out on the pwr supply & the TV. I am using a splitter that passes power. The only channels that appear weak are 4 & 5. They are measuring the lowest quality at 60 to 65 before and after adding the CM7777. All other channels including 9, 11 and 13 are 75 to 100 and work great with or without the splitter in the ckt.

I really don't care about the analog stations as I'm setting up based on what I can receive after June 12th. Looks like channel 13 is really using 18 UHF until after June 12th. I'm not getting any indication of problems with too strong a signal on anything I'm receiving. The C4 seems to be doing as well as can be expected given the terrain between the towers and my place on Whidbey Island.

I'm just not sure the CM7777 is working as advertized and am not sure what I can do to avoid returning a perfectly good preamp because I've overlooked something :eek: Guess I could swap out RG6, but I don't really think that is the problem. I am using the combined output and FM trap is out. I have peaked the antenna by aiming it at chan 4, 146 Mag. Adjusted using the signal quality meter for max signal. Looks like the 70 deg coverage works fine since I have strong coverage on all the other channels with the exception of 4 & 5.

Thanks all for your help :) I have 90 days to figure it out.

Gary

Thanks all,

I'm splitting the signal between the TV out on the pwr supply & the TV. I am using a splitter that passes power. The only channels that appear weak are 4 & 5. They are measuring the lowest quality at 60 to 65 before and after adding the CM7777. All other channels including 9, 11 and 13 are 75 to 100 and work great with or without the splitter in the ckt.

I really don't care about the analog stations as I'm setting up based on what I can receive after June 12th. Looks like channel 13 is really using 18 UHF until after June 12th. I'm not getting any indication of problems with too strong a signal on anything I'm receiving. The C4 seems to be doing as well as can be expected given the terrain between the towers and my place on Whidbey Island.

I'm just not sure the CM7777 is working as advertized and am not sure what I can do to avoid returning a perfectly good preamp because I've overlooked something :eek: Guess I could swap out RG6, but I don't really think that is the problem. I am using the combined output and FM trap is out.

Thanks all for your help :) I have 90 days to figure it out.

Gary

Gary,
I find that any time the signal drops below 70 % it causes dropouts on the VIP722. I have some channels that I get fluctuations on. UHF is tough here because of terrain and distance to tower. Sometimes they come in at 40 - 70 %, usually windy, cloudy or rainy weather, etc. and sometimes fluctuates between 70 - 80 % in good weather. As long as signal stays steady above 70 we are okay. Below 70 we get dropouts. Can watch same channels on TV's tuner and no droputs unless signal drops below 40 or so.

Good to know Dave. Thanks! I'm not to the point yet that I want to take down my 50' Panasonic and plug straight into the antenna in, but it's good to know that "at least your sets tuner receives weaker stations, or maybe it's just calibrated different than the 722. I'm sure some of the problem is terrain related, but when it's working steady, I just can't see a difference between having the CM7777 in the ckt and not.... I'd planned to dump Dish when my contract expires in a few months and buy A DTVPal DVR, or an HD TIVO. If I can figure it out. Out here on the left coast the magic number for dropouts seems to be more like 60 or less... I could add a 5' extension on to the 10' mast/chimney mount, but would have to guy it to remain within code. We get some pretty awsome winds where I am located.

Thanks,
Gary

How much cable do you have between the splitter and the antenna/pre-amp?

With ABC, CBS, CW, MyNetwork, NBC, & PBS at 144°M to 146°M and FOX at 170°M, I don't think you can get FOX, while pointing to 145°M. I'm assuming you don't have a rotor.

If you aim the antenna a little towards 133°M, you should be able to get iON, along with everything above (except FOX). You'll get other stations just due to proximity.

For better UHF reception, try to get your antenna above 35' (AGL) and 10' above any structure it's mounted to.

I only have 6' between the splitter and the pwr supply of the CM7777. It's between the pwr supply and the antenna input on my 722 DVR. It's not hooked up to a second TV and is only installed to test the amp. post split. Do I need to terminate the open coax connection with a 75 ohm terminator to the second tv, or is it isolated enough not to make any diff? I do receive ION and 29 other digital channels just fine. The antenna seems to be doing its job with the exception of ABC "Chan 4" post split. FOX has a quality reading of near 100 most of the time with the Clearstream 4 pointed at ~ 145 Mag. Guess I could add that 5' mast extension on just to see if there is a big improvement... It would have to be pretty big to get my wife's seal of approval. It's butt ugly sticking that far above my house ;-)

Gary

Do I need to terminate the open coax connection with a 75 ohm terminator to the second tv, or is it isolated enough not to make any diff?
Yes, you should. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryR.html#terminators

Where can one get ONE boom section for the XG-91? Sounds like exactly what I need.

I can't seem to find info on aquiring this anywhere. Any hints?

I can't seem to find info on aquiring this anywhere. Any hints?

Contact AD directly via their contact form on their website.

I only have 6' between the splitter and the pwr supply of the CM7777.
OK. Let me rephrase this.

How much cable is there between the pre-amp and the pre-amp power supply?

So far I'm totalling:

6' between antenna and pre-amp
6' between pre-amp power supply and splitter
~30' distribution run
~50' distribution run

Without a lot more cable, I'd recommend that you try replacing the CM7777 with a CM3412 two-way distribution amplifier. It has a very low NF, less likelyhood of overdriving your system, and completely isolates your two distribution legs.

If you need to get more height, move the antenna off the chimney mount and use a tower. If you ever get hit with lightning, you'll be glad you did. I've seen way too many antenna pole setups (more than 5' above roof lines) destroyed by wind. My tower is 15' above the roof line now and I'm looking to go another 20'.

NOTE: KDMD is operating their pre-transition DTV transmission on channel 32 (same channel as their LP's in Fairbanks) at .647KW. They will go full power (17.2 KW) on channel 33, when they turn off their analog transmission, which is on channel 33. How's your reception of analog ABC?

Guess I could add that 5' mast extension on just to see if there is a big improvement... It would have to be pretty big to get my wife's seal of approval.
You could go to TVFool and add 5' to your height and get a feel for what it will do for you.

Here ya go Systems2000,

6' from antenna to mast mounted CM7777 combined input
25' from CM7777 Output/Power to the pwr supply input side
2' from the antenna out to TV to the splitter (GE 2 way 5-2300MHZ pwr pass) IN
6' from the splitter out to my Dish network 722 DVR OTA antenna in.

I installed it this way to test the amp and will not install the 50' and 30' RG6 to the
other TV's until I can verify my setup and the CM7777.

I will terminate the open drops on the splitter.
I will run a test on TVfool to see if the additional 5' will make a diff.
I'll test my Analog channels to see if the amp made a difference.

Thanks for all the help and good advice.

Gary

Going from 24' AGL to 29' AGL will not make any difference. You need to get above 35' AGL.

39' of cable from antenna to input of the "Dish network 722 DVR OTA antenna in," isn't very much cable. You also have a 3.5-4.0 dB loss through your splitter.

As a Dish Network customer On Whidbey Island, Wa, I lost access to Channel 4 (ABC) due to a contract dispute between Dish and Fisher Broadcasting. I have a 722 HD DVR with ATSC tuner so I bought and mounted a ClearStream4 Antenna and hooked it up to the Antenna In. When I re-scanned locals, it brought in 30 channels including the Dish banned channel 4. At this point I was starting to think about dumping Dish and going OTA only. Signal strengths measured between 60 and 100 on stations that are as far away as 50 miles, but splitting the signal to feed two other TV's required some amplification so I bought a CM7777 and mounted it on my mast 6' below the antenna.

Weak and strong channels across the UHF band show no improvement in strength :confused: I checked the RG6 before installation and found no opens or shorts.

I bought the CM7777 based on the many good reviews on this forum and others. I'd love to get rid of Dish Network, but need to solve this problem first. Any suggestions on where to go first with the CM7777 ?

Great Forum. Thanks in Advance for any help.

Gary

I have a CM7777 and a DISH 722.....when you put the CM7777 in line, and I take it you used a diplexer outside, did you use one that passes power on BOTH ports?? (MOST DONT! They only pass power to the DISH side)....the voltage out of the 722 (19V) is perfect for the CM7777....get a splitter (I get mine off Ebay...cheaper) that passes power to BOTH ports....and you'll be better off...DO NOT put the CM7777 in the cable line UNLESS you have separate cable feeds to your DISH and OTA antenna.....I have a splitter inside that passes power from the 722 ONLY to the main line. It goes out and then hits the DUAL splitter which feeds power to BOTH ports (dont get them backwards or you may blow up your OTA input!)...and it works just fine; even worked with my older DISH 5000....13/18V....except to get max gain, I had to put the DISH on 9999 or 000 AUX...the 722 doesnt have 000 but it DOES have 9999 if you are using a legacy switch (SW21) and LNB...if you are using DISH PRO+, you dont have the switch and any channel the 722 is on, the voltage is ~19V......if you live near FM transmitters, you may want to turn ON the FM trap in the 7777...also dont POINT the antenna where it faces a nearby STRONG LOCAL TV signal...that will cause the 7777 to compress and not ampilify correctly....a little OFF can make a BIG difference.

Here ya go Systems2000,

6' from antenna to mast mounted CM7777 combined input
25' from CM7777 Output/Power to the pwr supply input side
2' from the antenna out to TV to the splitter (GE 2 way 5-2300MHZ pwr pass) IN
6' from the splitter out to my Dish network 722 DVR OTA antenna in.

I installed it this way to test the amp and will not install the 50' and 30' RG6 to the
other TV's until I can verify my setup and the CM7777.

I will terminate the open drops on the splitter.
I will run a test on TVfool to see if the additional 5' will make a diff.
I'll test my Analog channels to see if the amp made a difference.

Thanks for all the help and good advice.

Gary

Dont bother terminating the open ports...wont make much difference. Get rid of the CM power supply and let the 722 do it for you..also I bet you have a problem with TWO DC voltages (the 722 and the CM PS) coming out...somehow I see that could be an issue...you dont need the CM 0747...take it out. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE POWER PASS from DISH 722 sat out to cable to splitter (BOTH ports) to DISH AND CM7777--you'll be good to go.
See crudely drawn image for my setup...it works! (Verified on analog and with R2670 spectrum analyzer)

Yes, you should. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryR.html#terminators

Maybe 0.2db or so..but in practice, not enough to make a real difference....

Contact AD directly via their contact form on their website.

Thanks.

I mounted my M8 today and gave it a test run. Very disappointed. Even with my pre-amp, it didn't receive any UHF channels other than 39 (WJAL-DT) and WWPB-DT. I could only mount it at around 30'. I'm not able to get it any higher without some major standoff blocks, lowering my DBGH, or swapping it with the CM3020.

Hi all,
I currently have a CM3021 (now called a 4221) with a Winegard 19db UHF only pre-amp. I have it on a rotor but I have parked the antenna in a spot where I can get Baltimore and DC locals. The Baltimore locals are at 106 degrees while the DC are 191. So this antenna has a wide range.

Well, some of my local HD's are moving to VHF HI. Can someone recommend an antenna that can give me similar results to what I have today? I want to avoid have to rotor the antenna back and forth between DC and Baltimore. After the install I want to play with the rotor to find a good compromise spot where I can get both cities and not have to touch the rotor again.

One of the reasons I want to avoid "rotoring" is because my antenna is high up to where I don't want to climb. Every so often the rotor trips it's breaker (what the antenna guy told me). The last antenna guy just climbed up and reset the internal breaker and I got charged for 1 hour labor. :(

Thanks

Hi all,
I currently have a CM3021 (now called a 4221) with a Winegard 19db UHF only pre-amp. I have it on a rotor but I have parked the antenna in a spot where I can get Baltimore and DC locals. The Baltimore locals are at 106 degrees while the DC are 191. So this antenna has a wide range.

Well, some of my local HD's are moving to VHF HI. Can someone recommend an antenna that can give me similar results to what I have today? I want to avoid have to rotor the antenna back and forth between DC and Baltimore. After the install I want to play with the rotor to find a good compromise spot where I can get both cities and not have to touch the rotor again.

One of the reasons I want to avoid "rotoring" is because my antenna is high up to where I don't want to climb. Every so often the rotor trips it's breaker (what the antenna guy told me). The last antenna guy just climbed up and reset the internal breaker and I got charged for 1 hour labor. :(

Thanks

If you can list the call sign & channels of the stations you are receiving now I will give you some ideas

Since 7 (WJLA-TV), 9 (WUSA-TV), 11 (WBAL-TV), & 13 (WJZ-TV) are currently being used by the analog transmissions, it's kind of hard to determine what will happen on June 12th.

If you supply us a post-transition digital result from http://www.TVFool.com/, we could give you a better answer.

I mounted my M8 today and gave it a test run. Very disappointed.
Sounds like the same disappointment that I experienced when I compared my new 4228 with my 4221.
How did you phase together the two M4s that make up the M8?

14 AWG solid copper. I soldered them at the connection point and at the 300 ohm lead take-off to the pre-amp.

I think I'll be transporting it to my wife's parents house, located in Mercersburg. They're in a better receiving area and it may work better for them.

Can someone recommend an antenna that can give me similar results to what I have today?
Probably your cheapest option would be to add a vhf-hi antenna with a combiner. If youre fairly close to Baltimore and Washington, you may be able to get by with a local type vhf-hi antenna, which would have a wide beamwidth.

Hi all,
Well, some of my local HD's are moving to VHF HI. Can someone recommend an antenna that can give me similar results to what I have today? I want to avoid have to rotor the antenna back and forth between DC and Baltimore. After the install I want to play with the rotor to find a good compromise spot where I can get both cities and not have to touch the rotor again.As close as you are to Baltimore, you should do just fine with a Antennacraft Y-5-7-13 favoring the direction of DC. The larger version of this antenna may be too directional for your needs. The DC VHF-HI stations will be broadcasting strong signals in your direction post transition.

Do you recieve WETA-DT & WDCW-DT from DC well now? How about WMPT-DT from Annapolis?

14 AWG solid copper. I soldered them at the connection point and at the 300 ohm lead take-off to the pre-amp.

I think I'll be transporting it to my wife's parents house, located in Mercersburg. They're in a better receiving area and it may work better for them.
Did you use tapered lines as per mclapp?:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showpost.php?p=886584&postcount=101

http://www.frontiernet.net/~mclapp/Antennas/Diagrams/VertStack%20CoPhase%20lines.pdf

Did you also try phasing the two M4s using 2 baluns and splitter/combiner with equal length coax lines. I got 2.5 dB more that way with 2 4221s side-by-side (the phasing of the 2 baluns must be correct).

I have a country home in Dalton, Mo and I'm trying to decide what's the best antenna for me. Below you'll find my channel listing from antennaweb.org. Please let me know what I'll need to get the best reception. Thanks

* green
uhf KMOS-DT 6.1 PBS SEDALIA, MO 171° 53.7 15
* blue
uhf KMIZ-DT 17.1 ABC COLUMBIA, MO Jun 12, 2009 (post-transition) 150° 49.0 17
blue
uhf KMIZ 17 ABC COLUMBIA, MO 150° 49.0 17
blue
vhf KOMU 8 NBC COLUMBIA, MO 130° 52.6 8
violet
vhf KRCG 13 CBS JEFFERSON CITY, MO 134° 68.5 13
* violet
uhf KMIZ-DT 17.1 ABC COLUMBIA, MO 150° 49.0 22
Note:

was gonna pickup a terk hdtva but everywhere around here is out of stock except best buy and they want 73 bucks for it, not gonna pay 73 because i've seen it elsewhere cheaper then that. For 73 bucks you can get an outdoor antenna

talk about robbery

was gonna pickup a terk hdtva but everywhere around here is out of stock except best buy and they want 73 bucks for it, not gonna pay 73 because i've seen it elsewhere cheaper then that. For 73 bucks you can get an outdoor antenna

talk about robbery

A robbery is when someone holds a gun to your head.

It's your choice to buy it or not - it's called capitalism....so quit whinin'

Below you'll find my channel listing from antennaweb.org. Please let me know what I'll need to get the best reception.
Youre better off looking at the numbers from TVFool than from a color chart. Post your TVFool png image here.

was gonna pickup a terk hdtva but everywhere around here is out of stock except best buy and they want 73 bucks for it, not gonna pay 73 because i've seen it elsewhere cheaper then that.

Amazon usually has them for about 40 bucks with free shipping. That's the best deal I've ever seen for the HDTVa.

d

t

Sorry about the previous 2 posts, but I had to at least have 3 posts in order to post a url. Below are my results from tvfool.com. Please let me know what I should do.
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d7c728118c14c54

I picked-up a new CM4221HD at Fry's last weekend and am still running tests on it.

However, the packaging is a definite problem. The lower bays are getting crushed by the box. The bays fold down to fit in the box, but end up extending beyond the reflector.

I discovered this when I turned it around with the lower bay on top and the box wouldn't close w/o bending the whiskers.

Looking at the bottom of the box, I can see where the whiskers were getting bent and the top of the box had a significant dent showing the pressure of the box holding the bent elements.

I will try to remember to upload a picture of this later, but the resultant bends in the bottom bays are easy to spot, when compared to the others.

Please let me know what I should do.
Because of your channel 12, youre going to need a vhf-hi/uhf combo antenna pointed at about 150 degrees. The higher the gain, the better.

Because of your channel 12, youre going to need a vhf-hi/uhf combo antenna pointed at about 150 degrees. The higher the gain, the better.

I'm thinking about going with the Winegard Hd-8200u. Do you think this antenna will work? Will I need an amplifier as well?

I'm thinking about going with the Winegard Hd-8200u. Do you think this antenna will work? Will I need an amplifier as well?

A better choice would the 769X series since you don't need the 2-6 coverage that the 8200 has.

A preamp is suggested.

A better choice would the 769X series since you don't need the 2-6 coverage that the 8200 has.

A preamp is suggested.

Correct. I would go with the Winegard 7698 (the biggest, most gain) with a strong pre-amp, think Winegard AP-8275 or Channel Master 7777....

Correct. I would go with the Winegard 7698 (the biggest, most gain) with a strong pre-amp, think Winegard AP-8275 or Channel Master 7777....

Ok, I think I'll go with the winegard 7698. How high would I have to mount it to get the best reception? Is the antenna multi-directional?

Ok, I think I'll go with the winegard 7698. How high would I have to mount it to get the best reception? Is the antenna multi-directional?

The 7698 is VERY directional. It will have to be aimed accurately. Shoot for a heading of around 140-145 true.

As far as height... as high as it takes.

I just don't see how the terk HDTVa is worth $73.99.

The 7698 is VERY directional. It will have to be aimed accurately. Shoot for a heading of around 140-145 true.

As far as height... as high as it takes.

Is there a good multi-directional antenna I can use that would be suitable for my area?

I just don't see how the terk HDTVa is worth $73.99.
The pretty box it comes in is $70 of the worth, heh.

I just don't see how the terk HDTVa is worth $73.99.
The authentic, amplified Silver Sensor (Philips PHDTV3) is much less:
http://www.google.com/products?q=phdtv3
And is enclosed to protect sensitive antenna elements from prying fingers...

Is there a good multi-directional antenna I can use that would be suitable for my area?
If I were you I would go with the 7698 as that is what I am using on stations that are from 37 to 46 mi. and between 306 and 333 true. This antenna improved my reception quite a bit and I am not running any pre amp either. I don't think you would be happy with an omni at your distance.

Is there a good multi-directional antenna I can use that would be suitable for my area?

Nope.

Is the winegard 7698 a better choice than the channel master 3671?

Is the winegard 7698 a better choice than the channel master 3671?The 7698 is a much better choice. The 3671 is a beast. You don't need such a wide, heavy antenna unless you have channels 2-6 to contend with. The channel 7-69 performance will be no better with the 3671.

Correct. I would go with the Winegard 7698 (the biggest, most gain) with a strong pre-amp, think Winegard AP-8275 or Channel Master 7777....

In side by side test with a Wineguard and a CM7777, the CM won hands down...the WG threw more noise into the spectrum than anything...The specs look good but on a REAL spectrum analyzer hooked to a REAL antenna, it was JUNK

Also DONT overlook the CM7778....lower gain on VHF but same on UHF as the 7777 and slightly cheaper...the 7778 wont overload when pointed at a FM antenna farm and doesnt need the FM trap ON like the 7777 does a lot of times (though I run mine with the trap off but Im not looking at a lot of FM stations where my TV stations are...usually they are together)

Did you use tapered lines as per mclapp?: YES. I used 9.75" 10 AWG solid copper wire for the wiskers, a full floating screened reflector, and 5.25" spacing (Closest I could get with ½" PVC piping tees). I used 14 AWG for the interconnect phase lines.
Did you also try phasing the two M4s using 2 baluns and splitter/combiner with equal length coax lines. I got 2.5 dB more that way with 2 4221s side-by-side (the phasing of the 2 baluns must be correct).NO. I've not tried that yet.

Is there a good multi-directional antenna I can use that would be suitable for my area?
Nope, and you would have a slim chance of getting the stations at 254 degrees on a consistant basis anyway.

Afternoon all, looking for some advice since I'm finally going to replace my Radio Shack antenna. I've read through about the last 50 pages of this thread and I'm not any more clear on what I should do. A map from TVFool is below, I'm looking for the best solution to receiving channels in the 7-51 range. Do I need two antennas or will one do the trick, which models, etc, etc.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v684/jmwhite73/Stuff/th_Radar-Digital2.png (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v684/jmwhite73/Stuff/?action=view&current=Radar-Digital2.png)

Oops meant to say I'm mainly concerned with the Pittsburgh stations (48, 25, 13, 43, 51) and then 9-NBC & 7-CBS that you listed would be nice. That said we have a rotor now which is fine. Like most I'm sure I'd like to be able to reach out to grab as many stations as possible.

To be even more specific 43-Fox at 94 and 51-ABC at 113 are big priorities. They are the only HD Fox and ABC broadcasts we receive and both can be weak at times (especially Fox). One other thing is that there are tall trees in all directions.

Any suggestions on getting a good signal from 43-Fox list on my TVFool page? It's the weirdest thing best we used to get it fine but starting about a month ago it faded out to no signal at all.

This past weekend I swapped out my old giant Radio Shack VHF/UHF antenna for a CM4228 (old version not new) which is hooked to a radio shack preamp. Every channel I can get actually comes in stronger but I still can't get a lock on WPGH. It improved a little, I can actually get a signal but the signal bounces around from 40-50% back down to 0% so it's still not watchable.

I'm trying to figure out everything I'll need to go along with the Winegard 7698 antenna. Ie. Mast, mount, connectors, ground wire, etc. Please post your recommendations.

Any suggestions on getting a good signal from 43-Fox list on my TVFool page? It's the weirdest thing best we used to get it fine but starting about a month ago it faded out to no signal at all.
Any new buildings go up between you and the transmitter ? You could call the station to find out.

I'm trying to figure out everything I'll need to go along with the Winegard 7698 antenna. Ie. Mast, mount, connectors, ground wire, etc. Please post your recommendations.
A little hard to do, since we dont know what you have now, what shape its in, what you want to keep or replace etc, heh.

OTA antenna installs are not a straight-forward issue. There are multitudes of variables that would create a situation, where your neighbors great reception could possibly not work for you. A good majority of the "Antenna Experts," on this forum, are experts because they have gone through the school of "Hard Knocks."

I, myself, have gone through three different distribution amplifiers (DA's) and I'm looking to replace my current one. I've relocated my mounting position twice. I'm still looking for an acceptable antenna and to get even more height (Third time). I'm also constantly rerouting 300 Ohm cable.

OTA antenna installs are not a straight-forward issue. There are multitudes of variables that would create a situation, where your neighbors great reception could possibly not work for you. A good majority of the "Antenna Experts," on this forum, are experts because they have gone through the school of "Hard Knocks."

I, myself, have gone through three different distribution amplifiers (DA's) and I'm looking to replace my current one. I've relocated my mounting position twice. I'm still looking for an acceptable antenna and to get even more height (Third time). I'm also constantly rerouting 300 Ohm cable.

From what I have heard in routing 300 ohm cable it need to be twisted 3 or 4 twist per foot & have mounts to keep it away from metel. But 300 ohm does have much less loss that coax.

A little hard to do, since we dont know what you have now, what shape its in, what you want to keep or replace etc, heh.

I don't have anything now. I plan to roof mount this antenna with an elevation of about 40'. I've also considered putting it on a pole.

Don't mount it to the roof! You'll be glad if it gets hit with lightning.

HI folks,
Chiming back in....to rehash...today I get pretty good results on a CM4221 with a Winegard 19db UHF only pre-amp. I was going to try a Winegard 26db UHF only pre-amp that I have, but decided against it once I found out some stations were moving to VHF. I really like the fact that my current antenna is not very directional. I have a lot of play with it.

I want to prepare for some of my locals going to VHF. I am attaching the TVFool pic of post June 12 digital stations. I am reading that many folks like the CM7777 pre-amp. Any help with recommending an antenna would be appreciated. I have 10 DirecTV HDDVR's which are all fed an OTA signal, so I have a lot of splits.
I only really care about the DC and Baltimore stations. They are shown in yellow and green. The Baltimore stations are at about 105 degrees and 17 miles away, while the DC stations are at about 191 degrees and 32 miles away. My current antenna is pointed right in between them and I am pretty good. The exceptions are DC channel 4 is pretty weak as is Baltimore channel 11. (Channel 4 is only about 65-70 signal strength and Ch 11 is about 80 going from my DirecTV tuner) Both happen to be NBC (not sure if this is a coincidence). Other stations like channel 13 from Balt and channel 9 from DC, I can't not receive them. I kid you not, I can point the antenna anywhere and those come in really strong (both CBS, coincidence?).
So basically I'd like to get an antenna that gives me the UHF characteristics of my bowtie antenna with VHF. Also, my antenna is on a 5 foot mast on my roof.

Thanks

Don't mount it to the roof! You'll be glad if it gets hit with lightning.

How do you suggest I mount the antenna?

From what I have heard in routing 300 ohm cable it need to be twisted 3 or 4 twist per foot & have mounts to keep it away from metel. But 300 ohm does have much less loss that coax.
Yep, except when its wet. Thats why open line 300 ohm is superior, it sheds water quickly and has the lowest loss.

How do you suggest I mount the antenna?
If you mount it to the roof, youll need to run a heavy duty ground wire to the mast for safety. Think of Ben Franklins invention, heh.

How do you suggest I mount the antenna?
Pole or tower anchored to the ground and side of the house. Less likelyhood of wind damage also.

Channel Master doesn't recommend any more than 3' of pole above the rotor, unless it has a bearing mount of some sort. There's also a recommended maximum height of 10' or less above last anchor point, for single pole mounts (including rotor/antenna assy). Anything above 10' should be mounted with a tower.

UHF reception is best above 35' AGL. Even higher if you have obstructions close by.

Yep, except when its wet. Thats why open line 300 ohm is superior, it sheds water quickly and has the lowest loss.

the open wire is by far the best. Some folks are blessed to still have some of it new unused on the spool.

So I use regular 300 from the antenna down the mast & inside the attic. Just inside the attic I have a indoor amp. The from the on to the TV is coax. thus I get as much of the signal to the amp before any loss & as little loss as I can. It would be even better with open wire but with only 12 feet of 300 ohm there is very little loss. Even when wet it is less than one db [really 0.72 db] loss at UHF ch 50.

The only way I know get get 300 open wire is to make it. That would be to get the gray out door PVC for electrical 1/2" conduit. then cutting into 1" to making seperators. Drilling holes in each one at exactly 3/4 " apart. Then getting 14 awg wire. If it is not bare; strip the insulation off the wire. Then slide the wire in the seperators.


That is a lot of work, even for just 12" of open wire.

If some one has a better idea to get open wire I am all ears.

Thanks Systems2000 for your help. What is the best coupon eligible dtv converter box on the market?

i'd get a Zenith DTT901

Thanks Systems2000 for your help. What is the best coupon eligible dtv converter box on the market?

I have a maganavox, RCA & Zenith. I can not see any difference on the TV screen. but the max out put they have is composite video.

If you find one with an s-video out put , it will give you a sharper & smooth screen with using a TV with high enough res to show the difference. But most sets that display high enough res, already have the dtv tuner built in.

but if you have a dvd recorder with out an dtv tuner but with a record input at s-video it will give a better res on the screen when you watch the dvd recorded over the s-video input.

What rotator will be the best for the winegard 7698?

General consensus is that the Channel Master CM7000 is the best CECB. Although I've not had one to try, my best luck has been with the APEX DT502 (has S-Video & Reminder function - No channel add) and Sunkey SK801ATSC (no recall function).

There is a thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=546066) that deals with antennas, rotors, & pre-amps/DA's.

General consensus is that the Channel Master CM7000 is the best CECB. Although I've not had one to try, my best luck has been with the APEX DT502 (has S-Video & Reminder function - No channel add)
Yep. I also dont have the Channel Master CM7000. But I also have the Zenith and Insignia and AccessHD and the APEX 502 and the Sansonic. Out of all of them the AccessHD is the worst. I really like the APEX 502 except for the no ADD channel feature, which makes it a deal killer for me. I would say go with the Zenith/Insignia box, you wont go far wrong.

Re. Receive Antenna VSWR Degradation to DTV Receiver Sensitivity

A paper presented by Kerry Cozad at Oct04 IEEE Broadcast Technology Society re. DTV antenna VSWR and Gain measurements is cited in the fol., but I have not yet seen it. I would appreciate a copy if anyone has it.

Anyone know of any DTV Antenna VSWR measurements....or NEC simulation results?

Hi, if you still need it, I have a Kerry Cozad presentation on the Consummer antenna gain & VSWR. I can't give the URL now since this is my first post. Let me know if it's of any use to you.

Also, concerning your last question, there is an IEEE Transactions on Broadcasting (Dec 2002) paper on the topic: "Evaluation of Antenna and Receiver Mismatch Effects on DTV Reception".

Let me know if it's of any use to you.
It sounds interesting, go ahead and post it.

It sounds interesting, go ahead and post it.

He has to have several posts first before the forum's software settings will allow him to post a URL (spam reduction measure). He will have to make several more posts, whether useful or just marker posts, in order to be permitted to post a URL.

I'd certainly find those articles to be of interest myself.

I went to antennaweb.org and entered my address. I live in Quincy, Massachusetts, and there is a tall water tower not far from my house. Antenneweb.org said I need a "large directional antenna with pre-amp" to view the channels I want to receive (in the violet sector).

I'm having a terrible time finding the right antenna to buy. ConsumerReports.org doesn't rate antennas, and I've searched the Internet for days with no luck.

Has anyone had to buy this type of antenna? If so, can you please give me some help? I have no clue.

Thanks,

Stephanie

I went to antennaweb.org and entered my address. I live in Quincy, Massachusetts, and there is a tall water tower not far from my house. Antenneweb.org said I need a "large directional antenna with pre-amp" to view the channels I want to receive (in the violet sector).

I'm having a terrible time finding the right antenna to buy. ConsumerReports.org doesn't rate antennas, and I've searched the Internet for days with no luck.

Has anyone had to buy this type of antenna? If so, can you please give me some help? I have no clue.

Thanks,

Stephanie

Got to www.TVfool.com and enter your exact address. Cut and past the link to your report back here so we can see it.

Specify what market area you are targeting for reception and where you intend to mount the antenna.

Antennaweb's forecasts are close to worthless, that's why the TVfool analysis is what is asked for.

Antennaweb's forecasts are close to worthless
Yeah really. Who wants to be told they need a "blue" or "red" antenna ? :p

Actually, If you have a location that sells a large variety of antennas, you'll find the color code indicator on the retail box. Granted, it doesn't give performance differences between the same category of antennas.

Yeah really. Who wants to be told they need a "blue" or "red" antenna ? :p

If I buy a cheap antenna and paint it violet will it work better?

Probably. Dont red cars go faster ? And arent PCs in black cases more powerful ?

General consensus is that the Channel Master CM7000 is the best CECB.
Did you notice that Solid Signal dropped the price on the CM7000 to $44.93 plus S&H ?

If I buy a cheap antenna and paint it violet will it work better?

Oh ya, violet paint will make have 3,000dBd:)

Oh ya, violet paint will make have 3,000dBd:)

Whoa, really?! I could get the vikings games in Idaho with a violet antenna! LOL! Violet wouldn't match our gray house and would not have good WAF... :eek: Take care gjvrieze!

Antennas Direct has the "new" ClearStream C1C Convertible Antenna
on their website...set-top, wall or outdoor mounted, NOT amplified:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/indoorantennas.html
But the correct links aren't in place yet (thanx to "search site"):
http://www.antennasdirect.com/C1-Clearstream-Convertible-DTV-antenna.html
http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/c1c-assembly-instructions2.pdf

I don't know why A-D would continue with such an obvious falsehood:
"Attic Installations will cut 40% -50% of your signal strength."
It's more like 13 dB (+/- 7 dB) for attic vs minimal outdoor mast height
and 20-25+ dB versus a 30-ft mast mount.

Performance with the reflector in place is probably same as C1:
http://www.antennasdirect.com/pdf/C1_assembly_instructions.pdf
And it probably loses 3 dB when the reflector is removed for indoor use.

And it probably loses 3 dB when the reflector is removed for indoor use.
Heh, someone needs to clue in their marketing dept.

ClearStream1™(with reflector)
Good directivity at all frequencies with a peak gain of 8 dB.

ClearStream Convertible™(no reflector)
Good directivity at all UHF DTV frequencies with a peak gain of 8.25 dBi.

The SR8 is cute, and may be better than the Zenith Silver Sensor for eliminating ghosts, especially if you put it in a screened box.

if i buy a cheap antenna and paint it violet will it work better?

I might last longer.

It will rust more slowly than an unpainted antenna. Maybe.

A couple of paragraphs from an article by Shannon Huniwell titled "A Sentimental So Long to Analog TV", in the April 2009 issue of Popular Communications magazine, (the same issue also had a picture of DogTs DBGH, heh)

Who had been on Channel 1 ? RCA's New York station lived there through the war era, and then moved to Channel 4. The broadcasting giant never fussed about the shift. Some critics believe it was simply glad to have dealt a blow to Armstrong's FM, a system that it--and all other TV broadcasters--would use to transmit audio. Stations authorized for channel residence during the 1946-48 period were to be considered local community outlets with no more than 1kW of power. Though a construction permit or two got issued, none of these odd television facilities made it to air.
In the middle of 1948, the Commission deleted TV's Channel 1 and re-allocated its 44 to 50mHz to two-way land/mobile FM communication use. Channels 2 through 13 remained as broadcasting's prime real estate until the recent analog TV demise.
Why did the FCC leave a mystery on television dials that started with Channel 2 ? Legend has it the commissioners had subjected FM and TV broadcasting to so much change that they worried about making every television station move down a notch. Such relocation would necessitate new letterhead, revamped station identification slides, channel number change publicity, and replacement dials for existing TV sets. Reportedly, regulators in Washington thought about the political static that such gerrymandering might generate, and said, "The heck with renumbering all those @#!% TV channels!"

She then has picture of a V-E Day flyer, likely from April or early May 1945 that bar owners (who then owned most of the televisions sets) likely had posted in their establishments.
It goes like this:
V-E DAY
Watch WNBT for Special Victory News Program.
See: Famous NBC Newsmen in action.
See: Historical films of the War in review.
See: Up-to-the-minute Victory News flashes as they are received on the Television Studio News
Ticker.
For exact time of WNBT V-E Day Program
-- stay tuned to
WEAF, New York -- 660 on on your dial.
WNBT
Television Channel 1.
National Broadcasting Company.
A Service of Radio Corporation of America.

There was also the video stations logo on the flyer, a NBC radio microphone.

If anyone needs another code, just PM and you can have mine.:D

I need a dedicated FM antenna. – I’ve included a FMFool image that shows all the U.S. stations that I can receive. (Also, all stations to the north have been edited/erased out because they’re totally blocked by hills.) The receivable stations are generally 24 to 35 miles away and cover about a 40 degree arc from my location.

Will the Winegard HD-6055P FM antenna (http://www.winegard.com/kbase/upload/HD6055P.pdf) work well for me, or is too directional?

I don’t want to get a rotator, so I need an antenna that gets very good to excellent reception from all the reasonably powerful stations when it’s pointed at the midpoint of them. – I don’t need, or expect, decent reception of the exceptionally low power stations, like the last nine or ten on the list.

My second choice would be the Antennacraft FM6 (http://www.antennacraft.net/pdfs/FM6.pdf). I’m leaning toward the Winegard HD-6055P FM because I assume that it has a little higher gain. – Is this a correct assumption? And, in the real world, is there any reason to prefer one over the other?

Thanks for any help!
Dave

The DB2 is now on the roof. :)

A re-scan got me 28 digital channels, and 10 analog. I have it pointed to Cincinnati (my ZIP is 45056), but I am picking up several Dayton stations from the back of it, or reflection off another house maybe.

I will give out some more info. in regards to setting up the Winegard 7698 as I have installed two of them so far. The antenne will deliver to fringe areas as advertised. Thank you to those who responded to me on this subject some time ago as the weather in Iowa can be not conducive to setting up an antenna.

Can you give us a hint as to what you are receiving? A copy of your TVFool.com information and a performance report of that list would be nice.

What's the AGL of the 7698?

I will post the tv fool results http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d61b46663b3f005 This is my fathers house and antenna aimed at 37 true. MY tv signal quality meter showed readings from 60 to 90 with a run of 50ft. rg-6 and non amplified. I will go back at end of month and set up a new tv for them.

Are you getting WOI-DT (ABC)?

I'm assuming you're getting KHIN-DT (PBS), KCCI-DT (CBS), KDIN-DT (PBS), KDMI-DT (MyNet), WHO-DT (NBC), & KDSM-DT (FOX).

Are you getting WOI-DT (ABC)?

I'm assuming you're getting KHIN-DT (PBS), KCCI-DT (CBS), KDIN-DT (PBS), KDMI-DT (MyNet), WHO-DT (NBC), & KDSM-DT (FOX).

In regards to all stations you mention then if I remember correctly I was picking up all of them. I used my small 22in. lcd that I took to their house and used it to scan for those stations. I did not do a sq reading on every station but the few I sampled with my tv all the digital channels were very good and I picked up 1 or 2 analog also. I think KCCI came in at 92 on the tv meter but I will know more when my parents upgrade their tv. Their old tv was fed with some old twin lead so with new rg-6 on their tv the few analog they can get is better now. The tv they have just has pushbuttons from 2 to 13 and no remote. They do have a RCA converter box but was not able to configure that for them as I could not find the remote or instruction manual for it.

I re-checked the tv fool analysis and KHIN is one I did not get as it is at 294. So much for my memory.

Even at 294°, at the receive level you're supposed to be gettting, I would think it should be watchable.

On second look, the station is 50 miles away and single-edge. Maybe not. :)

Even at 294°, at the receive level you're supposed to be gettting, I would think it should be watchable.

On second look, the station is 50 miles away and single-edge. Maybe not. :)
When I go back I will try some different aiming of the antenna and see what happens. It was getting late and we had problems with the telescoping mast and the 7698 had it's own problems putting it together.

Hi,

I'm looking for a cut channel antenna for VHF channel 12. Seems to be very little out there, only could find this one for $200:

http://www.tvantenna.com/products/commercial/reception/offair/antennas/BTY-10-HB.html

Hoping to find for less.

Anyone know of a good choice? Doesn't need to be fancy, but I only want the one station to avoid signal noise issues when mixed with the UHF.

Thanks.

-William

You may want to try Wade Antenna. The prices aren't listed, so you will have to e-mail or call them.

http://www.wade-antenna.com/Wade/cutchannel.pdf

Have you considered the Winegard YA-1713? It appears to have the same amount of gain on channel 12 as the Wade.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=YA1713

What kind of signal noise issues are you concerned with?

Anyone know of a good choice? Doesn't need to be fancy, but I only want the one station to avoid signal noise issues when mixed with the UHF.

Post your TVFool png image. Yeah, what kind of noise ? Electrical ?

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d61b414951d8a03

I have the this UHF antenna:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000EHWCDW

Issue is that NBC loses signal lock periodically when viewing, say once per 15 minutes of viewing.

Hi,

I'm looking for a cut channel antenna for VHF channel 12. Seems to be very little out there, only could find this one for $200:

http://www.tvantenna.com/products/commercial/reception/offair/antennas/BTY-10-HB.html

Hoping to find for less.

Anyone know of a good choice? Doesn't need to be fancy, but I only want the one station to avoid signal noise issues when mixed with the UHF.

Thanks.

-William

When you attemt to watch ch12 do you have any kind of signal measurement?

Are all the stations in the same direction?

If not then

Do you plan to use a rotor or do you plan to have a seperate antenna pointed to each station?


The UHF may be bringing in interfernce on the VHF band like ch12. If you are by chance using a channel master 7777 pre amp then set it up for seperate inputs & connect the antennas tyo the ports sperately.

If not using that preamp the VHF/UHF antenna joiner will keep the VHF interfernce from coming in from the UHF antenna avaiable at

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm

But if ch 12 is strong enough any good VHF or VHF high band any may get it. I do know that some folks do not want an antenna that has the low band [ch2-ch6] element . They are big, ugly & cause a log of unnecessary wind load. So I could understand if you do not want a VHF ch2-ch13 antenna also.

You're trying to pick up a -70 dBm signal with an antenna that has about a -10 dB gain on the desired channel. Not very good odds of succeeding.

You might be getting noise into the system. Use an FM trap if your preamp doesn't have one, it can lessen the effects of undesirable harmonics from FM band broadcasts on the high VHF channels.

Your best bet is to add a 7-13 stick along with the suggested 7777 PA.

UHF antennas have a frequency range of 470 MHZ and above (to 810 MHZ), since NBC is at 204-210 MHz and your reception level is below -65 dBm, either of those two VHF-High antennas should work. Be advised that, since channel 12 is a 37 mile, 2-edge station, there are times you may lose it.

NOTE: I missed the previous post until I posted. You may want to use a HLSJ (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HLSJ) to remove all frequencies below channel 7. You could also use a UVSJ (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=UVSJ) to combine the antennas before the pre-amp.

I'm concerned that my link is not working since there is mention of KSPA and KLOS which I do not see and have not heard of. See attached image.

From memory, the signal measurement is around 60 to 80. All the stations I would like to get are at two angles which are close to each other: 28 and 323 degrees. I do not want to use a rotor on the antenna.

CBS: 29
NBC: 12
ABC: 24
FOX: 56
PBS: 30

I just have a UHF antenna and and almost getting enough signal for 12 NBC, so would like to add a cut antenna that only gets twelve to minimize and noise introduced by a second antenna. Was preferring to avoid high band and instead get cut to just 12. Anyone know a good place to get one?

I will switch to the channel master 7777 pre amp, thanks for the suggestion.

If there is not a good cut channel 12 antenna, please recommend a good 7-13 antenna. Is this a good choice: Winegard YA 1713 Prostar 1000 10 El. Hi-Band VHF Antenna?

Thanks.

If there is not a good cut channel 12 antenna, please recommend a good 7-13 antenna. Is this a good choice: Winegard YA 1713 Prostar 1000 10 El. Hi-Band VHF Antenna?I feel the YA-1713 would be a good choice for your situation. Combine the Winegard with your present UHF antenna using a UVSJ, & additional noise issues shouldn't be a concern. I wouldn't worry about FM issues unless you are less than 2 miles away from a full power FM station.

What do you watch for ABC & CBS?
If you are watching WLOS for ABC or WSPA ofr CBS , they are going put the digital signal over ch13 & 7 in June.

William_K_F is in California, and the ch12 that he's trying to get is in the SF Bay area. The stations you've named above are in upstate South Carolina. I was watching them just a little while ago. :)

If there is not a good cut channel 12 antenna, please recommend a good 7-13 antenna. Is this a good choice: Winegard YA 1713 Prostar 1000 10 El. Hi-Band VHF Antenna?

I use the YA-1713. It gives me a very good signal on a digital channel 8 which is 7-8 dB weaker than the ch 12 that you're trying to get.

Don't waste your time agonizing over a channel 12-cut antenna or yor money in buying one. You STILL have other high-VHF signals that WILL be coming from SF in less than 4 weeks. You must plan for post June 12th.

The 7-13 antenna addition is the only thing that makes any sense.

KLOS is a FM rock station on 95.5MHz in Los Angeles, CA.

I have an old ChannelMaster Join-tenna for UHF 49 in my current antenna system. It works great to combine a signal that's 90 degrees off axis from my main signals.

After June 12, I may need to make some changes -- and that led me to wonder: Is anybody still offering the Join-tenna (or something similar) for sale? (Seems I heard the Join-tenna itself was discontinued.)

William_K_F is in California, and the ch12 that he's trying to get is in the SF Bay area. The stations you've named above are in upstate South Carolina. I was watching them just a little while ago. :)



I use the YA-1713. It gives me a very good signal on a digital channel 8 which is 7-8 dB weaker than the ch 12 that you're trying to get.


Opps.

I forgot that this antenna topic could be visited by some one with problems from any where.

I have an old ChannelMaster Join-tenna for UHF 49 in my current antenna system. It works great to combine a signal that's 90 degrees off axis from my main signals.

After June 12, I may need to make some changes -- and that led me to wonder: Is anybody still offering the Join-tenna (or something similar) for sale? (Seems I heard the Join-tenna itself was discontinued.)

look here:
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/Jointennas.htm

I have an old ChannelMaster Join-tenna for UHF 49 in my current antenna system. It works great to combine a signal that's 90 degrees off axis from my main signals.

After June 12, I may need to make some changes -- and that led me to wonder: Is anybody still offering the Join-tenna (or something similar) for sale? (Seems I heard the Join-tenna itself was discontinued.)

Warren Electric still has them.

Tin Lee of Canada makes AC7 Single Channel Injector and higher performance AC7-CE:
http://www.tinlee.com/MATV_headend.php?active=3#ANTENNASIGNALINJECTORS
http://www.tinlee.com/CATV-Signal-Injector.php?active=1
Call/email to obtain detailed specs & price$$$...

I use a special Tinlee multi channel combiner on VHF and dual channel notch filters on UHF. The have way better performance than the Jointenna devices. I think they will also make a dual channel injector if you ask. Also they will make things not on their regular model list if you explain what you want to do. The prices I have paid are between 100 to 125dollars each.
John

systems2000 writes:
> I don't understand why manufacturers are taking so long to
> designed and produced digital OTA equipment for the
> Post-Transition configurations (ie. Pre-amps, Amps, Antennas,
> Filters, etc.). Specifically for VHF-Hi and UHF - limited
> to channel 51 at the high end.

UHF antennas could benefit from being optimized for a narrower bandwidth.
It isn't clear to me what should be different on pre-amps and amps?

Channel 51 ends at 698 MHz. Paco-Macom makes a LPF-700 50 dB filter, so
that is only 2 MHz off, and with manufacturing tolerances and the nature
of filters at that frequency I suspect that you'd be hard pressed to
tell the difference between the LPF-700 and a similar LPF-698. I
have the LPF-700 and it is hard to see the difference it makes to a
low power ntsc channel 54 710-716Mhz. This was a bit surprising, since
filtering out VHF makes a big improvement to the same channel 54, so 54
is sensitive to the ratio of its strength to other stations. I
don't have a frequency response graph of the LPF-700, but I suspect
that 710-716Mhz is in the sloping transition region. NTSC must
handle a sloping frequency response better than I expected.

What I haven't found is off-the-shelf HPF-174 and HPF-470 filters
similar to the LPF-216 and LPF-700. We seem to be stuck choosing
between using HLSJ and UVSJ diplexors as high-pass filters, or
paying for a custom filter.