I'm looking for a longer mast and I'd probably get another 3 feet or so with this (http://www.summitsource.com/antenna-mast-tv-9-pole-pipe-85-ft-after-interlock-20-gauge-steel-tube-outdoor-rooftop-offair-2-part-interlocking-support-p-6876.html). I can't find anything longer and there is just not much out there overall. Am I looking in the wrong places?

I bought army surplus heavy duty interlocking fiberglass poles, paid 1.00 per 4ft section, up 20ft and works great and dont move a bit.

I'm looking for a longer mast and I'd probably get another 3 feet or so with this (http://www.summitsource.com/antenna-mast-tv-9-pole-pipe-85-ft-after-interlock-20-gauge-steel-tube-outdoor-rooftop-offair-2-part-interlocking-support-p-6876.html). I can't find anything longer and there is just not much out there overall. Am I looking in the wrong places?

Home Depot has 10' lengths of electrical conduit in 1 1/2" and 1 1/4" dia. Also, RadioShack sells 10' and 5' 1 1/4" masts. Home Depot is cheaper, but not as pretty.

oz

It's just hollow tubing. It doesn't have to be "antenna mast" pipe, which is really no different from any other kind of tubing.
Yep, and a lot of commercial antenna masts sold are thinner, weaker, and pricier than common electrical conduit or chain link fencing tubing.

My local Forum (Roanoke VA) had a comment that covering the small space between the two identical 11 step lader like reflectors with a 'mesh' would improve CH 13 reception on the PR-8800.
Any theoritical basis for this?
Also do I
1. lay a small strip over the approx. 1" gap

Try laying a couple of 32" long aluminum tubes/bars, centered and connected to, the old reflectors and see if it does the trick.

4) Interference from the AV-Gear, fluorescent lights, cordless phone base stations, et.al.
Someone earlier on this forum mentioned noise from lawnmowers. Today, a neighbor down the street with a motorcycle went by and I noticed pixelation on RF channel 17. Signal strength at the time was 95%. When he came back by, the same pixelation occurred. I never noticed any interference from gas motors on UHF with analog.

There is a post on today's Atlanta avs saying that a UHF antenna that receives vhf signals is not good, becasue of vhf noise. I receive three vhf stations on my mc4228, one of those ch 13 with an occasional audio drop even though the signal is in the 90s.
I'm thinking it just the nature of digital on vhf, and not the uhf antenna.
Some thoughts please....

Someone earlier on this forum mentioned noise from lawnmowers. Today, a neighbor down the street with a motorcycle went by and I noticed pixelation on RF channel 17. Signal strength at the time was 95%. When he came back by, the same pixelation occurred. I never noticed any interference from gas motors on UHF with analog.

It must have been an older carburated non-computer controlled engine. And he's probably running spark plugs without resistors or very low resistance plug wires. That causes a boat load of EMI and in cars this problem was looked into and solved pretty much the first time someone wanted to listen to the radio while driving.

Either it's a coincidence or my aim plus all the limbing and removal of trees has actually improved my reception. I haven't had any cut outs on the off axis stations, CW and ION. I have a couple larger higher limbs to remove when I raise the antenna but I am now optimistic, especially given the properties of UHF.

Either it's a coincidence or my aim plus all the limbing and removal of trees has actually improved my reception.
No coincidence. Last year, I cut off a large basswood/lime tree limb that was in my path, and the channel that was on at the time went from snowy to crystal clear as the branch hit the ground.
It must have been an older carburated non-computer controlled engine.
Yeah, Im sure of that, heh. But with analog uhf, it was never noticible.

Based on the current aim the only thing directly in the path were some white pine limbs. Not exactly a big leafy oak or something. And I don't know why that would help stations that are completely off axis from this aim. But I'll take it for sure. I would recheck the signal strength on my channels and maybe try a few of the "dead" ones but House is recording and I still have only 1 tuner. I gotta build that multi-tuner HTPC. Come on Win 7 release...

Just a random comment on this whole project. While I was on my roof I guess a neighbor spotted me and later chatted me up about what I was working on. In general I've found people are very aware about ATSC though less aware of the quality of the HD content when it is being broadcast. And I have yet to run into a single person that is doing what I am doing, not even including the Media Center DVR setup. I guess people gave up on broadcast by the 80s and early 90s and never cared to look back. But they didn't have Hulu and Netflix then, either.

I guess people gave up on broadcast by the 80s and early 90s and never cared to look back.
I think transition to DTV is creating renewed interest in over the air reception for two reasons. Cheap folks like me would rather spend a few hundred dollars every couple of decades for an antenna rather the $50-100 a month for cable or Sat. At the other end we have audio and videophiles that cherish OTA picture quality because it is not transcoeded to squeeze a few more channels onto Cable or Sat.

At the other end we have audio and videophiles that cherish OTA picture quality because it is not transcoeded to squeeze a few more channels onto Cable or Sat.

As long as that station doens't have any subschannels you may be right. Now take a station like WTVF which is 1080i and it has not one but TWO subchannels. Well something has got to give.

Not to mention, I also heard a theory that the networks may actually broadcast a more compressed version of the content, if only because their major customers are cable companies that have to compress it anyway. So you might be getting some inferior bitrate like 6Mbit encoded into the 19Mbit for broadcast. There would be no way to tell other than quality loss.

There is a post on today's Atlanta avs saying that a UHF antenna that receives vhf signals is not good, becasue of vhf noise. I receive three vhf stations on my mc4228, one of those ch 13 with an occasional audio drop even though the signal is in the 90s.
I'm thinking it just the nature of digital on vhf, and not the uhf antenna.
Some thoughts please....
In general, sounds like mis-information....many users of Combo VHF/UHF Antennas say otherwise.
Since Preamps and Tuners have separate VHF and UHF sections, the third harmonic
products of VHF signals do not interfere with UHF.

Perhaps it was a comment made wrt to combining a Combo VHF/UHF Antenna with
another VHF Antenna???? This could degrade VHF performance since the noise and
interference would be the total from BOTH antennas. Which is why the JoinTenna
was invented.....and UVSJ Diplexer Combiners are used to merge VHF & UHF Antennas....

There is a post on today's Atlanta avs saying that a UHF antenna that receives vhf signals is not good, becasue of vhf noise. I receive three vhf stations on my mc4228, one of those ch 13 with an occasional audio drop even though the signal is in the 90s.
I'm thinking it just the nature of digital on vhf, and not the uhf antenna.
Some thoughts please....

It's the antenna.

The 4228 has a poor front to back ratio on VHF. This means that noise and reflections off the back are picked up all most as easily as the "main" beam.

An antenna designed for VHF has a high F/B ratio which reduces noise and reflections.

The source of the information is http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17306079&posted=1#post17306079

Channel 13 has a F/B ratio of just over 10 db. Channel 7 is 0 db. The best channel is 10 at 15 db F/B.

The idea that a 4228 is a good VHF antenna originated in Connecticut. WTNH-DT in New Haven is on channel 10. Unfortunately, you should not translate that success to other VHF channels.

I'm looking for a longer mast and I'd probably get another 3 feet or so with this (http://www.summitsource.com/antenna-mast-tv-9-pole-pipe-85-ft-after-interlock-20-gauge-steel-tube-outdoor-rooftop-offair-2-part-interlocking-support-p-6876.html). I can't find anything longer and there is just not much out there overall. Am I looking in the wrong places?
You could always use galvanized water pipe.

Do you think 1.5" for the bottom 6 feet and 1-3/8 for the top 6 feet is enough to hold up an 11 foot antenna like my Winegard 7697P?

Watch out for the gauge of the steel in the mast. The cheap one from Summit Source is 20 gauge. In my opinion that's too weak for your HD7697P.

This mast is galvanized steel and 16 gauge.

http://www.channelmasterstore.com/TV_Antenna_Mast_p/cm-1610.htm

At first it looks expensive, but they don't charge extra for shipping.

It's the antenna.

The 4228 has a poor front to back ratio on VHF. This means that noise and reflections off the back are picked up all most as easily as the "main" beam.

An antenna designed for VHF has a high F/B ratio which reduces noise and reflections.

The source of the information is http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17306079&posted=1#post17306079

Channel 13 has a F/B ratio of just over 10 db. Channel 7 is 0 db. The best channel is 10 at 15 db F/B.

The idea that a 4228 is a good VHF antenna originated in Connecticut. WTNH-DT in New Haven is on channel 10. Unfortunately, you should not translate that success to other VHF channels.

I agree. I did not have much success with the bow tie antenna except when it is a single bow. The 4 bay had ghost on some of the channels when the analog was on the air that were not on the vhf uhf combo. I would get a vhf high band to receive the vhf channels. But if you do that & still use the uhf bow tie antenna you may need a uhf/vhf antenna joiner that includes filters. It would block any vhf signals from the uhf bow tie antenna. If they are not blocked they would interfere with the good signal from the vhf high band antenna. you would need to check the spec on the joiner to make sure it does block the signal that you do not want from the antenna on each port. I have a joiner & it does work.

Home Depot has some 16 gauge options (http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Materials-Fencing-Chain-Link-Posts/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbb1hZ60ss9/R-100322474/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053) as well in terms of the fencing. I didn't see any 12' sections online, but I think you may find a one piece solution there at a reasonable price.

Home Depot has some 16 gauge options (http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Materials-Fencing-Chain-Link-Posts/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbb1hZ60ss9/R-100322474/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053) as well in terms of the fencing. I didn't see any 12' sections online, but I think you may find a one piece solution there at a reasonable price.

1" Black "iron" pipe:

http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Materials-Plumbing-Pipe-Fittings-Galvanized-Pipe-Fittings/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xieZbbgy/R-100535170/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

1" pipe is really 1.315" OD. The stock item at Home Depot is not galvanized. The wall thickness is substantial. The yield strength of "Black iron pipe" is not rated, but you can assume it to be in the 30,000 PSI to 35,000 PSI range. A steel mast should be rated at 40,000 PSI.

Wall thicknessess

16 gauge .0625
20 gauge .0375
schedule 40 pipe .133

The schedule 40 pipe will beat the strength of 16 gauge antenna mast by a factor of about 2:1 and 20 gauge by about 4:1.

If there is a plumbing supply store in your area call and ask for 1" schedule 40 galvanized pipe (unthreaded). Every TV U-bolt that I've seen will fit on 1.315" OD.

Watch out for the gauge of the steel in the mast. The cheap one from Summit Source is 20 gauge. In my opinion that's too weak for your HD7697P.

This mast is galvanized steel and 16 gauge.

http://www.channelmasterstore.com/TV_Antenna_Mast_p/cm-1610.htm

At first it looks expensive, but they don't charge extra for shipping.

I was talking about the aluminum masts linked by someone else but this also looks good. Thanks.

The aluminum ones are here (http://www.dxengineering.com/Products.asp?Action=Add&PartNo=DXE-AT1213&Type=&ID=279&SecID=136&DeptID=43). .058" wall 6063 aluminum. I was talking about stacking a 6' section of 1-3/8" OD on top of a 6' section of 1.5" OD, of this material. I think I'd rather do a 1 piece, though. Then again, a joint in the middle would likely make it easier to re-aim, as I could simply loosen the clamp and twist. Plus it's aluminum so it should be less likely to corrode and freeze in place.

I was talking about the aluminum masts linked by someone else but this also looks good. Thanks.

The aluminum ones are here (http://www.dxengineering.com/Products.asp?Action=Add&PartNo=DXE-AT1213&Type=&ID=279&SecID=136&DeptID=43). .058" wall 6063 aluminum. I was talking about stacking a 6' section of 1-3/8" OD on top of a 6' section of 1.5" OD, of this material. I think I'd rather do a 1 piece, though. Then again, a joint in the middle would likely make it easier to re-aim, as I could simply loosen the clamp and twist. Plus it's aluminum so it should be less likely to corrode and freeze in place.


.058 wall is too thin. Try this instead.

http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=1221&step=4&showunits=inches&id=73&top_cat=0

Nice, $46 for 12 feet :D

I continue to try my problem stations, the two off axis ones and a Boston independent, and I still haven't seen a single hiccup. What are the chances that I will decrease my reception on these or any? I am basing this on some of the things I saw in that UHF diffraction page, particularly the effect trees have.

Also I finally got WHDH, 7.1. I was screwing around with editing channels in Vista Media Center, trying to maybe add the RF channel for 7. Then I happened to check the guide after thinking I failed and 7.1 was there.

Then there are the empty sub channels. On a couple channels I get, Win 7 MC on my laptop detected some sub-channels but the guide info just says "SIGN OFF." Does this mean they plan to utilize the subs some day? I'm afraid that if I remove them I'll never know they go live some day. But at the same time I am annoyed at the junk in my guide.

Then there are the empty sub channels. On a couple channels I get, Win 7 MC on my laptop detected some sub-channels but the guide info just says "SIGN OFF." Does this mean they plan to utilize the subs some day?
Yep. Of course, you could remove them and then scan again, say weekly, which is good idea for a while.

Nice, $46 for 12 feet
Scrap metal yards are good source for cheap thick aluminum.

Also I finally got WHDH, 7.1. I was screwing around with editing channels in Vista Media Center, trying to maybe add the RF channel for 7. Then I happened to check the guide after thinking I failed and 7.1 was there.


'HDH is giving up on VHF 7 soon if not already.
They have been simulcasting on VHF 7 and UHF 42 since shortly after the transition.
Soon they'll be using UHF 42 only, branded as 7 via PSIP...

I apologize in advance because I'm sure that this question has been asked a million times in this thread, but does anyone know the difference(s) between these two antennas? (Terrestrial DB2 and Eagle Aspen dtv2buhf)

http://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Aspen-Dtv2Buhf-Directv-Antenna/dp/B000GIT002/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1254955127&sr=1-2

http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-DB2-Directional-Antenna/dp/B000EHUE7I/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t

Based on the reviews I'm reading, they work very similarly (in which case, I'd definitely pick the Eagle Aspen for the price difference), but the product description for the DB2 clearly states that it is multidirectional, while the Eagle Aspen's description does not. Do they have different directional properties?

Thanks a ton in advance.

They are both 2-bay bow-tie antennas. They will have similar properties. They aren't as directional as some other designs. Half power beam width will likely be in the range of something like 40 to 80 degrees depending on the channel and the antenna. Only way to tell is look at manufacturer's data. They are not omnidirectional. They are very good at rejecting signals from the back.

Here is another option. (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD-1080&d=Winegard-HD1080-2Bay-Bowtie-UHF-and-High-Band-VHF-Antenna-(HD1080))

The DB2 has a beam-width of around 90°, pretty much the same as other 2- and 4-bay bowties.

Be careful of how you interpret marketing hype. No antenna like this has a half power beam width of 90 degrees for all channels. BTW one seller reports both 80 degrees and 90 degrees on the same page. The antenna might have it for one channel but probably considerably less for most. I cannot find the actual figures for the DB2, but the Winegard HD1080 shows 52 degrees for channel 44 and 80 for channel 32. And I doubt that AntennasDirect's engineers are significantly better than Winegards's.

Can I cut of the rear VHF portion off of an attic mounted antenna?

I have an 11 year old color master in my attic. I think it was rated for 100 miles. With an amplifier it has worked fine receiving OTH HDTV. We re-insulated the attic and I had to remove the antenna. It is a very small attic and it takes up a lot of room. I'm no longer using the VHF ability of the antenna, and it would give me a lot of room if I could cut the rear VHF part of the antenna off. I think that the antenna behind the coax connector is for VHF channels 7 - 12. Has anyone done this? Anything I need to look out for?

All my locals are mapped to UHF.

Thanks

- jl

Has anyone done this? Anything I need to look out for?

All my locals are mapped to UHF.

Yeah, I used to use a uhf corner reflector that was salvaged from a badly damaged vhf/fm/uhf combo antenna. It worked well enough. Ive since modeled it and found that there are odd dips in the gain curve, but if the channels you need arent in the dip, you should be fine. Only way to know for sure is to try it, cutting it so it can be reassembled easily if need be.

but the product description for the DB2 clearly states that it is multidirectional
Heh, thats just plain wrong, unless you interpret being able to physically rotate it as being multidirectional. It will pick up all points of the compass, just not at the same time in the same position, heh heh. Or if you interpret multidirectional as having a beamwidth of more than 1 degree, heh. Oddly, the courts and the FTC may interpret it that way, so as always, buyer beware. The prefix "multi-" is just what it means in advertising, which in effect could be multiple anythings.

If you take off the refector, you can make it bi-directional, with some loss in gain.

My memory is bad. I dug up some polar plots that were emailed to me while back. Looks like 30-60° would be closer for the DB2/DB4 BW. My bad. Ken Nist has his sims of them over on hdtvprimer if you know where to dig.

The term "multi-directional" apparently was instituted by the CEA as part of its color-based antenna selector program (maybe?). I'm guessing it is defined somewhere in there, but since they require you buy in to read it, obviously, I've never read it.

If someone has come across a "real" definition of what makes an antenna "multi-directional", point me at it since I'd sure like to see it.

Thanks for the input, guys. I ended up going with the DB2. The Winegard seems nice, but based on the info I found at Antennaweb, it's a little more than I need, and it's pretty big, so it probably eliminates the option of using it in my living room (although I might be setting this up in the attic, anyways, not yet sure).

I have an old dipole with a loop antenna right now, and it can pick up maybe 8 channels, several of which will be pretty choppy, so I'm hoping this will be a significant upgrade. I'll be running the output through a splitter and then into both inputs of SiliconDust HDHomeRun dual tuner.

Should I expect any significant signal attenuation after the splitter?

EDIT: In case it matters, this is the splitter I will be using:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009W3BQ/ref=ox_ya_oh_product

An ideal two-way splitter delivers half the signal to each device. The signal that is delivered to each device will be 3dB down from the input. In real life, figure 3.5dB down because of insertion loss, not a significant difference.

The signal that is delivered to each device will be 3dB down from the input. In real life, figure 3.5dB down because of insertion loss, not a significant difference.
Whoa now, about 3 db is cutting the signal in half, pretty significant IMO, heh. Indoor antennas werent really designed to be split.

Damn... I was afraid of that. Think I should invest in an amp in that case? ... Maybe I should have gotten a bigger antenna afterall.

I didn't say the 3dB was not significant. That is up to the OP to determine. It is the difference between 3dB and 3.5B is not significant IMHO. Not an issue unless you are right on the cliff, and then your reception isn't going to be stable anyway.

There are amplified splitters you can purchase.

Think I should invest in an amp in that case?
Of course try it without one. The typical distribution amps available at Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot, RS etc are pretty high noise. A low noise variable amp like the Kitz Technology one would be your best bet.

We are looking for digital TV antenna recommendations


We are have an old vhf/uhf antenna on our new Samsung 52 that when you walk across the room you often get distortion. We live ver close to all the TV towers in Milwaukee and need to find what he less obtouse but still effective antennas for digital tv might be.


What are the best Antennas? Which decent ones arent too huge? We will put it in a bay window on the front of our house.

thanks!

Can I cut of the rear VHF portion off of an attic mounted antenna?

I have an 11 year old color master in my attic. I think it was rated for 100 miles. With an amplifier it has worked fine receiving OTH HDTV. We re-insulated the attic and I had to remove the antenna. It is a very small attic and it takes up a lot of room. I'm no longer using the VHF ability of the antenna, and it would give me a lot of room if I could cut the rear VHF part of the antenna off. I think that the antenna behind the coax connector is for VHF channels 7 - 12. Has anyone done this? Anything I need to look out for?

All my locals are mapped to UHF.

Thanks

- jl

Question: WHY do you not just mount it outside?? In an attic, you are losing as much as 12db in signal.....There is no reason NOT to put it outside...Federal law permits it and you get the BEST reception....even a vent pipe mount or eave mount would work...I dont understand why people stick with attic antennas...for that matter, you are not much better off than a pair of a rabbit ears with an amp on them!

We are looking for digital TV antenna recommendations


We are have an old vhf/uhf antenna on our new Samsung 52 that when you walk across the room you often get distortion. We live ver close to all the TV towers in Milwaukee and need to find what he less obtouse but still effective antennas for digital tv might be.

What are the best Antennas? Which decent ones arent too huge? We will put it in a bay window on the front of our house.

thanks!
1) There is no such thing as a "digital" antenna...RF is RF to any antenna...what worked with analog works with digital.

2) IF You live THAT close to the transmitter sites (where you can see the towers), consider rabbit ears with a 75ohm output ...if that doesnt work, get a CM7777 and add that to the rabbit ears...bet that will solve your problems..(I have a friend 1 mile south of me...we are 15 miles from our TV tower sites; 1VHF and 4 UHFs; on a pair of RS rabbit ears and a CM7777 amp, he gets all the DTVs he wants to watch...though he plans to put an outside antenna up later on a Rohn tower. MY 20ft high VU90 with a CM7777 amp picks up a VHF DTV 60miles away with no problem (when pointed in their direction).

3) For you, the CM4228 may be a good one..exactly how far are you from the antenna farm??

What are the best Antennas? Which decent ones arent too huge? We will put it in a bay window on the front of our house.
For indoor antennas, Escape Velocity has extensive write up and testing here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779

EV's Favorites....so far

RS 1880
RS 1892 UFO
RS DA-5200
RS Double Bow Tie
RS Single Classic BowTie
RS 1874 Budget
Petra SuperPower 32db(Cornet 645A)
Godar Model 1
Antennas Direc DB2
Antennas Direct ClearStream2
Channel Master 4149
Winegard SS-3000
Terk HDTVa
Terk TV-3
Terk TV-2
Philips Silver Sensor
Philips MANT510
Philips MANT940
Philips MANT950
RCA ANT806
RCA ANT108 (ANT110)

For $3.99, the RS Single Classic BowTie is hard to beat for uhf.

So my DB2 arrived in the mail today, and it's definitely an improvement, but there's still a couple channels I can't pick up with the rest of the channels because the towers are at a different angle (and possibly also because one of them is a VHF channel, and the DB2 is mostly a UHF antenna... stupid ABC).

Would it be possible to get a second antenna (whether or not it's the same antenna), place it at the proper angle for the channels I'm missing, and use some splitter ("backwards") to combine the output from both antennas into one good signal? Or would noise from both antennas nullify the good channels that the other antenna is picking up? Would I be better off just getting a bigger, higher gain antenna?

Thanks again... God I want to figure this out so I can drop my freaking cable TV service already.

DB2 isn't "mostly" a UHF antenna. It is a UHF antenna. It is not a VHF antenna.

The signal from two antennas can be combined. You have to be careful how you do it. If the signals are not in phase, it can be worse with two antennas than with one. If the signals are in phase, you can just combine them and get a stronger signal to your receiver. If not, the general approach is to use one or more filters before combining the signals so that each channel will come from only one antenna.

How many degrees apart are the missing channels from the ones you are getting successfully? And what is the VHF channel?

I said "mostly" because I've seen several people say that this antenna improved their signal strength for even VHF channels. In my case, the VHF reception was about the same as before if I had the antenna at the appropriate angle -- otherwise it was worse.

I think I have to rotate the antenna about 45 degrees to get the maximum signal I can get from the missing VHF channel. It's channel 8. Strangely, though, according to AntennaWeb, this channel is at the same angle as the other channels that I'm getting.

A few of the other channels occasionally still have less-than-ideal strength, though... so a bigger antenna might serve me well I think. Would it be feasible to get a DB8 and rotate one or two of the four pieces towards the tower of the missing channels? :confused:

The only thing I can suggest is check as many directions of aim as you have the patience for because you might find a bearing that gives you everything you want.

I think I have to rotate the antenna about 45 degrees to get the maximum signal I can get from the missing VHF channel. It's channel 8. Strangely, though, according to AntennaWeb, this channel is at the same angle as the other channels that I'm getting.
Try attaching a couple of 36 inch rods, horizontally and centered, to the DB2s reflector. If channel 8 is fairly strong, that may do the trick for you.

If RF 8 is the only VHF frequency you're after, get a dedicated VHF-high antenna (pointed at RF8) and combine that with your UHF. You'll need a UVSJ to do the trick.

How important is the other UHF frequency?

Try attaching a couple of 36 inch rods, horizontally and centered, to the DB2s reflector. If channel 8 is fairly strong, that may do the trick for you.

Isn't the wavelength of Ch 8 30 inches so wouldn't each rod need only be 15 inches? You're the expert so I'm just confused.

This channel is ABC, so it's pretty important for me to pick it up. ABC also has a couple other channels on this band that I want (weather channel, traffic channel). Any recommendations on a good VHF antenna? And/or a good VHF-UHF antenna?

I just realized that I might need to upgrade to the DB8 (or at least some bigger antenna) anyways since I'm moving to a townhome soon. Even though it's in the same area, there will be a row of about 3-4 other townhomes sharing walls between me and the general direction of most of these antennas. Being in a townhome, the HOA will probably not allow me to put an antenna on the roof, either, so it will have to be in my attic (which is still better than what I have right now, with the antenna just sitting on top of my entertainment center).

EDIT: One other question... would I have to worry about any kind of interference from power lines running perpendicular to the towers' signal path, about 500-600 feet behind my antenna?

Isn't the wavelength of Ch 8 30 inches so wouldn't each rod need only be 15 inches?
Channel 8s 1/2 wavelength is around 32 1/4", but with uhf bowtie reflectors used for vhf-hi, you want the length to be a bit longer. 32 inches would be good for channel 12 and 13, 36 to 40 inches would be good for channel 7 and 8.

EDIT: One other question... would I have to worry about any kind of interference from power lines running perpendicular to the towers' signal path, about 500-600 feet behind my antenna?
You (shouldnt), but could have problems, but you really wont know until you try.

This channel is ABC, systems2000, so it's pretty important for me to pick it up. ABC also has a couple other channels on this band that I want (weather channel, traffic channel). Any recommendations on a good VHF antenna? And/or a good VHF-UHF antenna? EDIT: Oh, just saw you were asking about the other UHF frequency. In that case, not very important at all. Basically the only channel I'm really missing out on at this point is channel 8. I get everything else I want, although I will probably need to get either an amp or a bigger antenna to get the signal strength I need for all of them.

I just realized that I might need to upgrade to the DB8 (or at least some bigger antenna) anyways since I'm moving to a townhome soon. Even though it's in the same area, there will be a row of about 3-4 other townhomes sharing walls between me and the general direction of most of the antenna towers. Being in a townhome, the HOA will probably not allow me to put an antenna on the roof, either, so it will have to be in my attic (which is still better than what I have right now, with the antenna just sitting on top of my entertainment center), or maybe outside on the porch.

EDIT: One other question... is it possible for relatively nearby (~100m or so) power lines or transformers, to interfere with reception?

Try attaching a couple of 36 inch rods, horizontally and centered, to the DB2s reflector. If channel 8 is fairly strong, that may do the trick for you.

I have been looking for this suggestion. I use a cm 4228 for some of my stations and would like to pick up a pbs low power .15kw on ch 8 that is only 4 miles away. The pbs is about 70 degress off my normal direction, some days I get them some days I don't. Can I insert a rod somewhere on the 4228 that would help. Would it be added to the chicken wire, or touch the bow ties?

ABC also has a couple other channels on this band that I want (weather channel, traffic channel).
RF8 is not the same as Channel 8. Sub-channels are included within RF8. If ABC is all your really after, then my suggestion still holds.

…the HOA will probably not allow me to put an antenna on the roof, either, so it will have to be in my attic (which is still better than what I have right now, with the antenna just sitting on top of my entertainment center), or maybe outside on the porch.
The FCC ruled on this issue years ago and has forbidden HOA's from having such a rule.

Being in a townhome, the HOA will probably not allow me to put an antenna on the roof, either, so it will have to be in my attic (which is still better than what I have right now, with the antenna just sitting on top of my entertainment center), or maybe outside on the porch.

Systems 2000 is correct. See post #194 on the AVS OVER-THE-AIR DIGITAL TELEVISION RECEPTION FAQ: New to OTA? Start here! thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957&page=7

Cheers.

So my DB2 arrived in the mail today, and it's definitely an improvement, but there's still a couple channels I can't pick up with the rest of the channels because the towers are at a different angle (and possibly also because one of them is a VHF channel, and the DB2 is mostly a UHF antenna... stupid ABC).

Would it be possible to get a second antenna (whether or not it's the same antenna), place it at the proper angle for the channels I'm missing, and use some splitter ("backwards") to combine the output from both antennas into one good signal? Or would noise from both antennas nullify the good channels that the other antenna is picking up? Would I be better off just getting a bigger, higher gain antenna?

Thanks again... God I want to figure this out so I can drop my freaking cable TV service already.

I use a CM 4228HD that picks up UHF and VHF channels.

Bah, I was really hoping this would be as simple as

1. Find a good tuner.
2. Find a good antenna.
3. Presto-spagettio, you just saved $60/month in cable bills.

I guess nothing is ever that easy, heh... I'll take a look at that page and see if it answers the rest of my questions. Thanks. I'm thinking I might be better off just getting a VHF/UHF antenna.

EDIT:
I use a CM 4228HD that picks up UHF and VHF channels.
Including channels as low as 8? Do you know if you actually get any gain on those channels, or if the signals were just pretty strong to begin with?

Looking for a decent antenna but want to put it in our front bay windo and don"t want something thats too big or obnoxious looking.

Right now for our new Samsung 52 b750 we have an old set of rabbit ears that sometimes the picture gets interrupted when somewhen walks in front of the set.

What are some of the decent antennas that arent too big.


I'm withing 2-3 miles of every television tower in Milwaukee.

If theres an advantage toa powered antenna I could try that but i wouldnt think I need it?

As pointed out many times within this thread, you would do better looking at this thread - EV's Best Top Rated DTV Indoor UHF Antenna Review Test Round-Up Guide (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779).

I have been looking for this suggestion. I use a cm 4228 for some of my stations and would like to pick up a pbs low power .15kw on ch 8 that is only 4 miles away. The pbs is about 70 degress off my normal direction, some days I get them some days I don't. Can I insert a rod somewhere on the 4228 that would help. Would it be added to the chicken wire, or touch the bow ties?
Hmm. The original CM4228 is already 40 inches wide. By the looks of it here http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html , its not that good for channel 8, but great for channel 9 and 10.

You could try sticking in 44 or 48 inch horizontal rods in the reflector to shift the curve lower.
Edit: Quick modeling shows adding the 44 or 48 inch rods doesnt do much to help channel 8 on the CM4228. They would increase Raw Gain about .6 dbi over what it is now, but the SWR remains unacceptably high at almost 27:1, meaning negative Net Gain. Another option to distort the vhf-hi gain curve would be to increase the reflector to element distance to 14 to 16 inches, but that would reduce your UHF gain. Sorry, it just looks like the CM4228 is stuck with a poor channel 8.

Thanks, 300... I may try the new 4228hd if I can find a decent shipping rate.

Thanks, 300... I may try the new 4228hd if I can find a decent shipping rate.
With Ch8 being at 70-deg, trying to get just ONE antenna to cover both directions
will be very, very difficult, if not impossible, cuz of the NULLS towards the sides.

You should buy or build a second Ch8 antenna and combine it with the CM4228
using a low loss UVSJ VHF/UHF Combiner. A simple Folded Dipole will provide a
Gain of about 2 dBi and the simple Circular Loop about 3-4 dBi....in the right
direction. If you still have problems, you'll need to add a reflector of some sort.

Several Hi-VHF DIY (e.g. Folded Dipole, Circular Loop w & w/o Reflectors) are found here:
www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops

Yeah, and replacing a CM4228 with a new CM4228HD is NOT a good overall trade off.

Try attaching a couple of 36 inch rods, horizontally and centered, to the DB2s reflector. If channel 8 is fairly strong, that may do the trick for you.
What do you mean when you say "horizontally"? You mean parallel to the ground plane, right? But perpendicular to the plane of the reflector? Maybe it would be worth it for me to try something like that with my antenna... I'll start experimenting once I move in.

Yeah, and replacing a CM4228 with a new CM4228HD is NOT a good overall trade off.
guess I will get a combiner, straighten a coat hanger and go for it... I would think it would not be too difficult to get them, as they are only 4 miles away with a full 15 watts.
I had a pretty good signal on the 4228 until Wed and they completely went away.... I'm thinking they must be having transmitter problems.

My 4228 works very well for vhf 8, but I have it on a rotor and leave it at it's sweet spot.

"horizontally"? You mean parallel to the ground plane, right? But perpendicular to the plane of the reflector?
Yep, but let me double check that with modeling. Is your DB2 the one with 1" X 4" mesh behind it ?
And actually, a 23" - 24" loop with combiner may be a more compact indoor solution for you as well. Especially if the vhf-hi channel is in a different direction from the uhf ones. The DB2 would fit inside the loop.

guess I will get a combiner, straighten a coat hanger and go for it... I would think it would not be too difficult to get them, as they are only 4 miles away with a full 150 watts.
I would splurge for the 1/4" inch tubing and make a 23" loop as holl_ands suggested. You only need 6 feet of it, and a coat hanger doesnt have enough material, heh.

well, the coat hanger didn't work. I am puzzled by the signal strenght, today at 90 one minute and gone the next. The reason I think they may have problems GPB TV's main transmitter is on ch 8 in Stone Mt. Ga, which I received very well until they activated their lp transmitter here in Toccoa, it too is on ch 8. When the local signal went dead
I was able to pick the Stone Mt. signal again on my "Atlanta" antennas
(ya1713).

Would the loop tubing be like "ice maker" tubing?

I have sent an email to one of their engineers.... maybe it is them....

Would the loop tubing be like "ice maker" tubing?

Yeah. Use whatever is cheapest, but you do want it to hold its shape.
Follow holl_ands analysis here:
http://www.imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops

Thanks 300, Printed the info and will give it a try tomorrow...

If you put the loop in a Faraday Cage, you could point the antenna at the main transmitter on Stone Mt. GA and probably get good results (unless the local transmitter is very close and has a good signal strength, then point it there). Without some sort of protection from one of the transmitters, the loop will not help.

RocketGuy3 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=7619472), I still think you would have a solid setup using a VHF-High antenna with your 4228 and run the coax from both through the UVSJ (See above post #10416 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17331382&postcount=10416)).

If you put the loop in a Faraday Cage, you could point the antenna at the main transmitter on Stone Mt. GA and probably get good results (unless the local transmitter is very close and has a good signal strength, then point it there). Without some sort of protection from one of the transmitters, the loop will not help.

Are saying the two signals are canceling each other out? The Stone Mt. ch 8 is 70 miles away at 228 degress 21 kw, the local is 4.6 miles away .150 kw at 334 degress los. tv fool says co-channel is possible. In gptv's orginal request for a local ch they ask for and got dt 10... I protested that it would kill WXIA dt10 out of Atlanta, to my surprise they ask for and received a switch to ch 8. I am not in the Atlanta dma, so they could have stayed with dt 10 but didn't which I appreciate, but sounds like they have a problem. Of course I am one of a handful of people in my town that would ever notice.

P S I turned my ya1317 away from Atlanta, and toward the local ch 8 got 100 strength, but the signal continued to pop in and out.

Yep, but let me double check that with modeling. Is your DB2 the one with 1" X 4" mesh behind it ?
And actually, a 23" - 24" loop with combiner may be a more compact indoor solution for you as well. Especially if the vhf-hi channel is in a different direction from the uhf ones. The DB2 would fit inside the loop.

According to the measurement I just took, it's about 1" X 2.75", but I'll give that idea a try once I move. If that doesn't work, and/or the signal there is any weaker than it is now, I think I might just go all out and get an HD8200U and stick it in the attic. It's a bit more than I wanted to spend, but I'm pretty sure it'd cover all my bases.

Are saying the two signals are canceling each other out?
At those directions, power levels, and distances, it's very possible. Your P.S. statement is another good indicator.

NOTE: I originally posted: "Without some sort of protection from one of the transmitters, the loop will not help." Maybe I should have said "…the loop may not help."

I just dropped my DISH and am going to try the OTA thing. I'm in Hopkinsville, KY and am primarily looking to pick up stations out of Nashville about 55 to 65 miles away. I would really like to try an attic mount in my single story house and avoid mounting some beast 15 feet over my house if at all possible. The terrain between me and the towers is not terribly hilly. There are some fairly large trees in my yard and neighborhood but no tall buildings or other structures.

I have run an analysis on the tvfool.com website and a link to the results is below. I really only want to pickup the Nashville stations in the 135 to 146 degree range. Any suggestions on what equipment might work best for me would be greatly appreciated!

www[dot]tvfool[dot]com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d03fb1f9efaaa35

I just dropped my DISH and am going to try the OTA thing. I'm in Hopkinsville, KY and am primarily looking to pick up stations out of Nashville about 55 to 65 miles away. I would really like to try an attic mount in my single story house and avoid mounting some beast 15 feet over my house if at all possible. The terrain between me and the towers is not terribly hilly. There are some fairly large trees in my yard and neighborhood but no tall buildings or other structures.

I have run an analysis on the tvfool.com website and a link to the results is below. I really only want to pickup the Nashville stations in the 135 to 146 degree range. Any suggestions on what equipment might work best for me would be greatly appreciated!

www[dot]tvfool[dot]com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d03fb1f9efaaa35

If you can get it in your attic (I wouldn't bother!), a large, full-band antenna such as the WG 8200 HD (or similar) would be suggested.

I wouldn't give an attic install high odds of being successful with those forecast numbers...

[QUOTE=systems2000;17339969]At those directions, power levels, and distances, it's very possible. Your P.S. statement is another good indicator.

The Stone Mt. signal is booming in today with no sign of the local. I haven't recieved a reply from Ga. Public tv to my inquiry about the problem. Today being Columbus Day they are probably closed. That "box" may be the only solution, unless they make a change, don't know what that would be.
Thanks for your help and 300....

I wouldn't give an attic install high odds of being successful with those forecast numbers...
Yeah, at 55 to 65 miles away, (about my distances) youll need all the signal you can get. You lose anywhere from 6 to 25+ db in the attic. The trees are another problem. Even with an outdoor install, you will want a clear path to the transmitter of at least a few hundred feet.

RocketGuy3 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=7619472), I still think you would have a solid setup using a VHF-High antenna with your 4228 and run the coax from both through the UVSJ (See above post #10416 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17331382&postcount=10416)).
I have the DB2, not the CM4228, but same thing I suppose. Do you have any recommendations on a good, high-gain VHF-high antenna? I can't seem to find much middle ground on VHF antennas -- it looks like I have to choose between either bunny ears with a loop (which don't seem to cut it in my area) or massive, $100+ outdoor/attic antenna. That's why I was mentioning the HD8200U earlier.

I have the DB2, not the CM4228, but same thing I suppose. Do you have any recommendations on a good, high-gain VHF-high antenna? I can't seem to find much middle ground on VHF antennas -- it looks like I have to choose between either bunny ears with a loop (which don't seem to cut it in my area) or massive, $100+ outdoor/attic antenna. That's why I was mentioning the HD8200U earlier.

The Winegard YA-1713 is supposed to be one of the better VHF-high antennas with raw gains in the 8-10 dBd range. It's not quite as good as the HD8200U or other large outdoor antenna's (~2-3db less), but costs considerably less and should do quite a bit better than Rabbit Ears. Personally, I didn't have much luck with it, but considering I was trying for an attic mount to pick up a 2Edge diffraction station 65 miles away, it was a long shot. At some point, I'll probably see how it does up on the roof, but I haven't had any time recently.

Hmm, that does seem like a pretty good option. I guess one of those combined with my DB2 using one of these should do the trick?

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=UVSJ&d=Pico-Macom-UVSJ-UHF-VHF-Band-SeparatorCombiner-for-Antenna-(UVSJ)&c=Signal%20Combiners&sku=UVSJ

Given that the antennas are on different bands, I wouldn't have to worry about any phasing problems, right? Will this combiner isolate the proper bands from each antenna?

Hmm, that does seem like a pretty good option. I guess one of those combined with my DB2 using one of these should do the trick?

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=UVSJ&d=Pico-Macom-UVSJ-UHF-VHF-Band-SeparatorCombiner-for-Antenna-(UVSJ)&c=Signal%20Combiners&sku=UVSJ

Given that the antennas are on different bands, I wouldn't have to worry about any phasing problems, right? Will this combiner isolate the proper bands from each antenna?


Yes, that is the purpose of a UVSJ (aka UHF/VHF diplexer).

Modest physical size high-VHF antennas include the 5-element Yagis from Antennacraft and ChannelMaster (both inexpensive) or the new C5 from Antennas Direct that is a loop-in-front-of a reflector.

One thing I've noticed about the C5 is that is does a fair job on certain UHF channels. I've measured gain (referenced to a dipole) of between -5 and + 5 dB depending on the channel in use. The response curve has a bit of a roller-coaster curve to it on UHF.... Of course, it's bigger (has to be so it will be resonant at high-VHF) than a DB2 and it's a lot more expensive.

BTW, we haven't seen your TVfool data. That would be quite helpful to have in hand when giving specific advice.

You could also use the Antennacraft Y10-7-13 (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=Y10-7-13&d=Antennacraft-Y10713-HighbandBroadband-VHF-Antenna-%28Y10713%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=716079000994) or the AntennaCraft Y5-7-13 (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=Y5-7-13&d=AntennaCraft-Y5713-HighbandBroadband-VHF-HD-Yagi-for-Channels-713-%28Y5713%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=716079000987)

The Winegard YA 1713 (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=OBO-YA-1713&d=OPEN-BOX-ITEM--Winegard-YA-1713-Prostar-1000-10-El.-HiBand-VHF-Antenna-%28YA1713%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=615798304867) is a 10 element antenna.

Here's my tvfool. Looks like just about everything I want is in that ~200 degree area.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d03fbcdecc582ff

The signals look stronger than they seem to have been for me so far, but maybe just an attic mount can fix that. I'll probably give the DB2/1713 combo a try.

The 1713 is probably overkill with numbers like those. Plus, keep its physical size in mind as to how it might fit in your attic (or not).

I'd try one of the mid-range high-VHF antennas first.

You're right - "Stupid ABC!"

Any suggestions on what equipment might work best for me would be greatly appreciated!

In your case I'd opt for a Winegard HD7082P. I wouldn't consider the attic, but 3' or so above the roof line should be enough. Add a HDP-269 preamp for better UHF performance.

The 1713 is probably overkill with numbers like those. Plus, keep its physical size in mind as to how it might fit in your attic (or not).

I'd try one of the mid-range high-VHF antennas first.

You're right - "Stupid ABC!"

That's what I thought, but based on the only-decent performance of my DB2 at my current place, I figured I'd need an upgrade. I'm pretty sure the 1713 will fit in my attic, though.

... But I'm getting ahead of myself. I'll see how my antenna performs once I move in.

I posted something similar in the Philly OTA forum, but thought I'd seek input from those in this forum: I am ready to go OTA-only, and need guidance finding the right antenna. I want to mount outside, on the roof. Most stations from Philly-area are on the same basic direction, about 33 miles away. Problem is: I need to pick up VHF6 and VHF 12, so I can't do the UHF-only I was originally planning for. Any suggestions on a good antenna for this? One on-line retailer suggested the Winegard MS-2000, but I don't trust those antennas that don't look like antennas. I want the Philly stations - anything else is gravy. Here is the plot from tvfool - thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this and comment.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d03fb0d58e09de4

If you can get it in your attic (I wouldn't bother!), a large, full-band antenna such as the WG 8200 HD (or similar) would be suggested.

I wouldn't give an attic install high odds of being successful with those forecast numbers...

In your case I'd opt for a Winegard HD7082P. I wouldn't consider the attic, but 3' or so above the roof line should be enough. Add a HDP-269 preamp for better UHF performance.

Do you think something smaller in size like a ClearStream4 mounted on the roof would work for me? I've seen several reviews on Amazon and a couple of other sites where people said they were getting great signal with this antenna from 60+ miles out.

I posted something similar in the Philly OTA forum, but thought I'd seek input from those in this forum: I am ready to go OTA-only, and need guidance finding the right antenna. I want to mount outside, on the roof. Most stations from Philly-area are on the same basic direction, about 33 miles away. Problem is: I need to pick up VHF6 and VHF 12, so I can't do the UHF-only I was originally planning for. Any suggestions on a good antenna for this? One on-line retailer suggested the Winegard MS-2000, but I don't trust those antennas that don't look like antennas. I want the Philly stations - anything else is gravy. Here is the plot from tvfool - thanks to anyone who takes the time to read this and comment.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d03fb0d58e09de4The Winegard 7082 or 7084 should work well for all your channels. I would personally lean towards the 7084 because of it's higher UHF gain.

Do you think something smaller in size like a ClearStream4 mounted on the roof would work for me?

Absolutely not!

The Internet reports do not apply to you. The C4 is a UHF antenna. You have three VHF stations in your city.

If you like the C4 for some reason, you'll also need a CS600 below it and a UVSJ.

I am ready to go OTA-only, and need guidance finding the right antenna.

I'd go with a Winegard HD7015. If you put it on a rotor, you could get a handful of stations in other directions.

If you want to avoid a rotor for additional stations, you could add WGAL with an Antennacraft Y5-7-13 and a channel 8 Jointenna.

http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-Jointenna-0578-Combiner/dp/B001RUB4BQ/ref=pd_bxgy_e_text_c

Stations from other directions get more complicated and costly.

Absolutely not!

The Internet reports do not apply to you. The C4 is a UHF antenna. You have three VHF stations in your city.

If you like the C4 for some reason, you'll also need a CS600 below it and a UVSJ.

The C4 would probably do fine on the UHF channels, but, as TG mentioned, you have three VHF channels including one that is on VHF LOW! Just driving that point home.

Do you think something smaller in size like a ClearStream4 mounted on the roof would work for me? I've seen several reviews on Amazon and a couple of other sites where people said they were getting great signal with this antenna from 60+ miles out.

I had a ClearStream4 and caught no VHF. I switched to a Channel Master 4228HD and now get the VHF stations and more UHF than before.

I switched to a Channel Master 4228HD and now get the VHF stations and more UHF than before.

Be careful. The 4228 can work on hi-VHF, but not well on low-VHF. Low VHF is channels 2-6.

Channel 5 is one of jausenbaugh's must-have channels.

I'd go with a Winegard HD7015.
Yeah, that should work fine for the Philly stations, and is reasonably priced.

Thank you all for the input. Should I also consider a preamp if I am going to split this between 2 tuners?

Thank you all for the input. Should I also consider a preamp if I am going to split this between 2 tuners?

I use the Channel Master 3414 4-output RF distribution amplifier to split between 2 TVs and a DVR.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001PI09SE/ref=oss_T12_product

Should I also consider a preamp if I am going to split this between 2 tuners?
Yes and especially if you are going to use more than 40 ft of coax, which you probably will. Stay away from the RS preamps, and get a low noise one from CM or Winegard or Kitz.

Thank you all for the input. Should I also consider a preamp if I am going to split this between 2 tuners?

A preamp/distribution amp is a good idea, but try it first without it, you may get lucky.

Thank you all for the input. Should I also consider a preamp if I am going to split this between 2 tuners?You'll likely need a pre-amp with the 7015.(But I would try without it first)

I have used the higher gain 7082 in signal areas stronger than yours & have been dissapointed with it's UHF performance.(The VHF is excellent though) A pre-amp was needed for reliably receiving real channels 48, 27, & 50 with this TV FOOL report.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d03fb3e3f2e3332

I put together my HTPC and the tuner I chose is the Avermedia Duet. It appears to be at least as good as the USB tuner I was using previously, which is cool considering it splits the signal internally to 2 tuners.

Going through the signal strength test in Windows 7 Media Center (which flies with this tuner, by the way) I have some channels being reported as decent reception but they don't tune in. I know it could be a driver thing with the tuner (and I don't expect you guys to help me with that part) but what if this is a symptom of FM overload? Wouldn't that mainly affect VHF or is the problem that it overloads the tuner preventing it from tuning other channels clearly.

As a refresher, here is my TV Fool (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8ecd4ed4d356de) report and here is my FM Fool (http://www.fmfool.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29) report.

I am aimed at around 50° and have recently cleared even more branches and some smaller trees. Oddly I seem to have lost performance on a few of the problem stations. It's either a coincidence or something else is going on. I still need to raise it which should put me into a stronger section of the diffracted UHF signal.

Going through the signal strength test in Windows 7 Media Center (which flies with this tuner, by the way) I have some channels being reported as decent reception but they don't tune in.
Which specific channels ?

Channels I didn't get before on the USB tuner.

The two that come to mind are CW 56.1 (RF 41 @ 29°) and, oddly, Fox 61.1 (71 miles, 2 edge, RF 31 @ 289°...explain that one).

The CW 28.1 has degraded since I last posted about it coming in...38.1 is very marginal.

Btw, while you are looking at my list, I do get some of the poor channels in the -70dBm range. Fox WFXT RF 31 (virtual 25.1 even though it isn't shown) seems to work well. I get 46.1. And I think I get 27.1 though it is univision so I don't have it in my guide. These all have -68 to -75 dBm signal power.

Channels I didn't get before on the USB tuner.

The two that come to mind are CW 56.1 (RF 41 @ 29°)
That one you should get, so its odd you dont. Maybe later.
oddly, Fox 61.1 (71 miles, 2 edge, RF 31 @ 289°...explain that one)
Probably just a fluke, and you wont see it often.

To be clear, those channels have enough bars to have a picture but they don't actually tune in. I was asking if strong FM could cause this. Can it?

Your fmfool report for zip 02852 (from p 344):

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/rr328/rabbit73_photos/Radar-FM02852.png

Yeah...I already linked to it. Can FM cause a problem with UHF channels as a property of the tuner itself? Obviously the RF channels are nowhere near each other.

Can FM cause a problem with UHF channels as a property of the tuner itself?
It shouldnt, unless something is very very wrong. I have even stronger FM stations (50 KW, -.3 dBm) only 1.2 miles away and dont have any problems now. In the 70's though, a good FM filter was needed for channel 6.

Yeah...I already linked to it.Actually, since you mention it, you didn't. The link in your post 10472 is for the page to enter the required info to generate the report (but not the report itself), which is why I posted it again so the other guys wouldn't have to run fmfool for your zip given in your tvfool report.
Can FM cause a problem with UHF channels as a property of the tuner itself?
As a temporary test you could insert a UVSJ with the VHF port terminated with a 75 ohm cap. This will block FM & VHF signals, but will tell you if FM signals are causing tuner overload that affects UHF signals, and that an FM trap might help. The filter between the common port and the UHF port is a high pass filter that has low loss.

Please stick to using the real RF channel number rather than the virtual channel number that has a decimal point. It's less ambiguous because the virtual number doesn't always indicate the correct band, but the real number does. Or more completely, for example, WGBH 2.1 on RF 19. The 2.1 makes us think of a VHF-low channel, but it's really on UHF 19. The virtual number system was adopted to maintain the original identity of the station, but it doesn't tell us what antenna is needed.

oddly, Fox 61.1 (71 miles, 2 edge, RF 31 @ 289°...explain that one).

Btw, while you are looking at my list, I do get some of the poor channels in the -70dBm range. Fox WFXT RF 31 (virtual 25.1 even though it isn't shown) seems to work well.

WFXT is shown as 22.7 db NM. The actual RF channel is 31, the same as WTIC with a NM of -11.2 db. So you can get the stronger channel 31, but not the weaker one. That would be normal.

WFXT is shown as 22.7 db NM. The actual RF channel is 31, the same as WTIC with a NM of -11.2 db. So you can get the stronger channel 31, but not the weaker one. That would be normal.

Oh wow. I didn't even realize that. Duh. You know what's really strange is when I try tuning into 61.1 it doesn't work. You'd think it would pull up 25.1 but maybe ATSC is more than just tuning into an RF channel. Maybe it also needs to know the Vchan matches. Neat.

Actually, you didn't. The link in your post 10472 is for the page to enter the required info to generate the report (but not the report itself), which is why I posted it again so the other guys wouldn't have to run fmfool for your zip given in your tvfool report.

Oops, you're right. I guess TV Fool works differently. The FM fool never changes the URL to something I can copy, but TV fool does.


As a temporary test you could insert a UVSJ with the VHF port terminated with a 75 ohm cap. This will block FM & VHF signals, but will tell you if FM signals are causing tuner overload that affects UHF signals, and that a FM trap might help. The filter between the common port and the UHF port is a high pass filter that has low loss.

So you think it's worth trying? I guess it would have to be some property of the tuner being cranky about strong RF signals over too wide a band. I don't even know if that's likely, which is why I asked. I do know that NTSC tuners didn't care anywhere near as much about too strong a signal, but ATSC does. I guess it is similar to what happens when you over drive a transistor amp vs a vacuum tube one.


Please stick to using the real RF channel number rather than the virtual channel number that has a decimal point. Or more completely, for example, WGBH 2.1 on RF 19. The 2.1 make us think of a VHF-low channel, but it's really on UHF 19. It's less ambiguous because the virtual number doesn't always indicate the correct band, but the real number does.

Yeah I'm all over the place. My bad.

I guess TV Fool works differently.Yes, it does. Before tvfool gave us the URL in bold type near the top of the report, we had to click on "save" to store it on our hard disk and then post it as an attachment or use an image host, which is what I did, if we wanted it to appear in the post. You still have to do that with fmfool. Before I complete a long post I usually click on "Go Advanced" and then preview to proof the text and check that the links are OK. The links are active in the preview mode, but they are not yet showing in the thread.
So you think it's worth trying? I guess it would have to be some property of the tuner being cranky about strong RF signals over too wide a band. I don't even know if that's likely, which is why I asked. I do know that NTSC tuners didn't care anywhere near as much about too strong a signal, but ATSC does. I guess it is similar to what happens when you over drive a transistor amp vs a vacuum tube one.
The test with the UVSJ will rule out fundamental overload from signals below UHF, but it doesn't rule out harmonics and spurious intermod signals from nearby transmitters that fall in the UHF band. That would require a spectrum analyzer and a person trained in tracking down intermod problems.

Digital Rules has a few words to say on the topic:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17350736&postcount=35

And then look at the NAB-MSTV converter box report:
http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%20Digital%20Converter%20Box%20Evaluation/Manuals-summary-report1.htmlclick on Digital Converter Box Report which is:
http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%20Digital%20Converter%20Box%20Evaluation/Converter_Box_report.doc.pdf

Go to p 21 of the pdf, (4 of 36) in the attachment, Test Results, General Tests, Overload tests of converter box tuners that must exceed the NTIA spec of -5.0 dBm.

And then go to p 47 of the pdf, (30 of 36) in the attachment, Table A4-2 Overload test results

If you make overload calculations using the NTIA figure of -5.0 dBm and the dBm figure from tvfool or fmfool you have to add in the antenna and preamp gain. If you are making NM calculations, you only add the antenna gain. A preamp does makes the signal stronger, but it makes the SNR worse because it adds its own noise. Andy Lee has an excellent post on his Official TV Fool forum thread that has two diagrams of what happens to the signal on its way to the tuner. The second diagram shows how the preamp adds its noise while adding gain which makes the SNR worse. Notice also that the antenna adds its gain without harming the SNR:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15700679&postcount=397

I don't have any figures for the overload performance of other tuners, but it is my impression that the overload performance of CECBs is superior to many other tuners because they had to be built to meet the NTIA spec.

Do you have any other equipment, besides your laptop and the roof antenna, to watch TV like a set in another room connected to cable to make signal reception comparisons?

I suspect that the problems that you are having with some channels are from a reduction in signal quality which causes more bit errors which brings you to the "digital cliff" from changing signal propagation, off-axis antenna aim, or multipath problems from the remaining trees.(You can see why I like the signal quality bar of the Apex DT502.)

Do you still have trouble with WLWC 28.1 on RF 22 and WSBK 38.1 on RF 39 (hope I got your problem channels right) when you aim your antenna directly at them?

just installed a winegard HD-1080 in my hard right next to the dish using diplexers to connect the antenna to the dish coax... working great without preamps or anything... all the channels 35 miles away come in good.. didn't expect such good performance given my location down in a valley of sorts with no direct line of sight.

No need to pay for locals after all... little antenna mounted about 8 feet up does the job well with good signal strength as well.

Do you still have trouble with WLWC 28.1 on RF 22 and WSBK 38.1 on RF 39 (hope I got your problem channels right) when you aim your antenna directly at them?

Yes. I'd say 38 is slightly worse than 28 but both have still been giving me problems, despite the further clearing of branches and trees, and the change in tuners. I may need to experiment with aim again, even though I thought ~50d was the best. It is windy and somewhat rainy this morning as I make this latest report.

Taking everything into account the following stations are giving me broken up performance or no picture (as listed) right now:
4.1 (RF 30) gives 4-5 bars but sometimes 2
[See below] 7 (RF 42) is black despite giving 5 consistent bars in the signal strength test
28.1 (RF 22) gives 5 but sometimes 2....
36 (RF 21) sometimes 5-6, sometimes 2
38 (RF 39) is black and gives 2 bars in the test, every once in a while shows 5
46.1 (RF 10) is black and gives 2 bars
69 (RF 17) gives 5-6 bars but sometimes 2

EDIT: Something interesting happened with Vchan 7. Win 7 actually showed 2 RF channels available (by priority) for this channel, RF 7 and RF 42. Interestingly TV fool appears to have incomplete info about Vchan 7 (WHDH) as well. After telling it not to use RF 42 but to use 7, both 7.1 and 7.2 display with the consistency that the 5 bar strength would indicate (no breakups). Perhaps they are broadcasting on both RF channels at the moment...

Yes, WHDH is currently simulcasting.

TVfool's data engine is only capable of utilizing one broadcasting frequency, so Andy probably selected either the most recent filing or hand selected the one that is most probable to survive the current period.

Well RF 7 works great and RF 42 is basically dead. I hope 7 survives unless they'd crank up the power on 42 instead.

I hope 7 survives unless they'd crank up the power on 42 instead.
My understanding is FCC approved request to stay on RF-42.

Works out well for us as both NH stations are on VHF. We use separate antennas with VHF aimed at WENH, and UHF at Boston stations.

And then look at the NAB-MSTV converter box report:
http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%20Digital%20Converter%20Box%20Evaluation/Manuals-summary-report1.htmlclick on Digital Converter Box Report which is:
http://www.nabfastroad.org/NAB-STV%20Digital%20Converter%20Box%20Evaluation/Converter_Box_report.doc.pdf

Go to p 21 of the pdf, (4 of 36) in the attachment, Test Results, General Tests, Overload tests of converter box tuners that must exceed the NTIA spec of -5.0 dBm.

And then go to p 47 of the pdf, (30 of 36) in the attachment, Table A4-2 Overload test results

If you make overload calculations using the NTIA figure of -5.0 dBm and the dBm figure from tvfool or fmfool you have to add in the antenna and preamp gain. If you are making NM calculations, you only add the antenna gain. A preamp does makes the signal stronger, but it makes the SNR worse because it adds its own noise. Andy Lee has an excellent post on his Official TV Fool forum thread that has two diagrams of what happens to the signal on its way to the tuner. The second diagram shows how the preamp adds its noise while adding gain which makes the SNR worse. Notice also that the antenna adds its gain without harming the SNR:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=15700679&postcount=397

I don't have any figures for the overload performance of other tuners, but it is my impression that the overload performance of CECBs is superior to many other tuners because they had to be built to meet the NTIA spec.
When CRC tested Zenith "5th Gen" Prototype (Sep2003), they found desired signal overload at -2.3 dBm.
When CRC tested Samsung Prototype (Aug2005), they found it could tolerate the highest level their
testbed could apply (> 1.5 dBm).
In the Converter Box test above, they found a single channel overload level of about 1 dBm (+/- 1 dB).
So they all seem to be about the same, except the Zenith prototype overloaded a few db early.

Converter Box tests above ONLY investigated what happens when the DESIRED
signal strength is too strong (e.g. more than -5 dBm) and did NOT investigate
desensitization when an UNDESIRED signal is too strong. The input level for
the widest dynamic range (Spurious Free Dynamic Range) would be perhaps
20 dB LOWER than the single channel overload level (e.g. somewhat HIGHER
than the 1 dB Compression spec level):
http://www.odyseus.nildram.co.uk/Systems_And_Devices_Files/Linearity.pdf
http://www.arl.army.mil/arlreports/2007/ARL-TR-4235.pdf

Overload desensitization WAS investigated in STB/DTVs PRIOR to release of CECBs:
http://www.fcc.gov/oet/info/documents/reports/DTV_Interference_Rejection_Thresholds-03-30-07.pdf

SFDR discussion, links and calculator for overload desensitization can be found here:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/files/ota
FYI: Max Preamp input levels for maximum dynamic range with 2-8 strong inputs:
HDP-269: -15 to -23 dBm
CM7777: -36 to -44 dBm

My understanding is FCC approved request to stay on RF-42.

Works out well for us as both NH stations are on VHF. We use separate antennas with VHF aimed at WENH, and UHF at Boston stations.

Well that works out nice. I hope they crank up the power on 42 when 7 goes offline because I am watching it now and it's perfect, while 42 is black.

I'm new here and don't know a lot about this, but from looking at TV Fool it looks like I probably need a UHF/VHF multi-directional antenna. Is that correct? Does anyone have a suggestion of an antenna that would fit my needs? The top 8 channels are the ones I care about.

Thanks

I'm new here and don't know a lot about this, but from looking at TV Fool it looks like I probably need a UHF/VHF multi-directional antenna. Is that correct? Does anyone have a suggestion of an antenna that would fit my needs? The top 8 channels are the ones I care about.

Thanks

4 Bay UHF, any brand
5 element VHF, Y5-7-13
UVSJ combiner
no preamp

4 Bay UHF, any brand
5 element VHF, Y5-7-13
UVSJ combiner
no preamp

..or a suburban area U/V combo that gets high-VHF off the rear about as well as the front. The Antennas Direct V10 is an example that would work in a single antenna. An HBU22 from Radio Shack would also work fine for $40.

You don't need any real gain. As long as you don't have any multi-path, a simple loop and rabbit ears equivalent should be all you'd need.

With a 60+ dB NM, a cardboard box would likely work! Those two VHF stations should come in off the back of almost anything you throw up there, even if you put a meant-for-UHF antenna up there.

Converter Box tests above ONLY investigated what happens when the DESIRED signal strength is too strong (e.g. more than -5 dBm) and did NOT investigate desensitization when an UNDESIRED signal is too strong. The input level for the widest dynamic range (Spurious Free Dynamic Range) would be perhaps 20 dB LOWER than the single channel overload level (e.g. somewhat HIGHER than the 1 dB Compression spec level):
Does that mean that Kevin is already in trouble with his approx -22 to -28 dBm FM signals even before adding antenna gain?

holl_ands: What would be your calculations for his stiuation, and what would be your conclusions based on those calculations?

I'm new here and don't know a lot about this, but from looking at TV Fool it looks like I probably need a UHF/VHF multi-directional antenna. Is that correct? Does anyone have a suggestion of an antenna that would fit my needs? The top 8 channels are the ones I care about.

Thanks

The CM 4228HD should work with stations that close. I have mine pointed east to pick up channels 60 miles away and also pick up the channels north 25 miles away.

Does that mean that Kevin is already in trouble with his approx -22 to -28 dBm FM signals even before adding antenna gain?

How would that calculate out in his case, and what would be your conclusions?

Good question. I haven't had a chance to run any numbers yet but I hope to.

Does that mean that Kevin is already in trouble with his approx -22 to -28 dBm FM signals even before adding antenna gain?
He cant be. His FM signals are very weak compared to mine. I have -0.3 dBm from a 50KW FM station 1.2 miles away, and Im just fine with all my converter boxes and pc tuner cards.

Hmm ok. After I straightened my vchan 7 problems out, the rest I think is just due to interference, diffraction, etc. As I watch the signal test cycle through the channels, the problem ones go in and out. I will try re-aiming, including directly at the stations that are giving me problems, and if I am lucky, raise it up before winter hits.

.HBU22 from Radio Shack would also work fine for $40.

You don't need any real gain. As long as you don't have any multi-path, a simple loop and rabbit ears equivalent should be all you'd need.



You're right, multipath is a potential problem. It just so happens that the VHF stations are in one direction and the UHF are in others. An HBU-22 would not be as optimum as the two antenna solution.

A couple of "must reads" re FM interference to Hi-VHF TV:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/82716
http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/resources/vhf-interference.pdf

Unfortunately, Preamp and Tuner specs don't SAY what the susceptibility levels are.

A couple of "must reads" re FM interference to Hi-VHF TV:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/82716
http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/resources/vhf-interference.pdf

Unfortunately, Preamp and Tuner specs don't SAY what the susceptibility levels are.Interesting that in the first link Charlie Rhodes suggests a high pass filter, which is just what I suggested to Kevin as a temporary test. Charlie suggests a HPF that attenuates below CH 7; I suggested a HPF that attenuates below CH 14 (1/2 of a UVSJ) because it's inexpensive, easy to find, and Kevin was concerned about FM signals affecting UHF reception:
Fig. 3 shows our results with the FM signals as received at my home roughly 14 miles or so from the FM towers in Portland.

Their total received power is –26 dBm, some 10 dB stronger than any DTV signal here......

The good news is that FMI can be eliminated by installing a 75 ohm FM band stop filter at the input to the afflicted DTV receiving appliance. A much lower-cost alternative is a 75 ohm high pass filter (HPF) which attenuates FM signals and any low band VHF DTV signals. In many communities, there will be no DTV signals on Channels 2 through 6, so a high pass filter will work fine. However there are some communities with one or more DTV stations on low band channels. A way around this would be an A/B switch to bypass the HPF when a low VHF band channel is desired.

You're right, multipath is a potential problem. It just so happens that the VHF stations are in one direction and the UHF are in others. An HBU-22 would not be as optimum as the two antenna solution.

No, it wouldn't. However, if the HBU22 has a F/B of 10-15 dB (just guessing) and he has over 60 dB NM, an "optimum" solution could easily be replaced by one that is simpler, cheaper, and still offers more than adequate signal headroom by catching the the high-VHF stations off the rear lobe of the antenna.

You're right, your solution is an excellent one based on classic ideas. It will work without problems. My suggestion was one that goes a bit out of the box and requires a bit of rethinking of the "classic" methods.

FWIW, a V10 has nearly bi-directional reception on high-VHF and I'd suggest it first since I've played with it and am comfortable with its performance. The HBU22 was suggested since it's inexpensive and should be in the stockroom of a local retail store.

As always, YMMV.

After reading the article on FM Interference, I decided to create a second order distortion products spreadsheet of my own. Since I'm 2-edge reception and VHF-High reception has been a real issue for a lot of viewers, I looked at FM stations down to -50dBm (I have another 11 down to -60dBm). My reception levels for the Baltimore and D.C. stations on RF7, 9, 11, & 13 are within the range of -100dBm to -110dBm.

Now to understand/comprehend the authors reference to -84dBm noise cut-off and -68dBm level.

I also contacted Tinlee.com (http://www.tinlee.com/) about their products, and they created a drawing using their products, that would be useful, for my location. I like how the setup brings all my really strong stations in on one antenna. What I found most interesting was their use of double filters.

I reviewed their "reception quality" of "adjacent channel" "NOTE:" (see table) and find it interesting that the channels they are concerned about are some of my best received channels.

RF Channel1|RF Channel2|Off-Axis Direction|SL Spread
7|8|63°|33dB
38|39|155°|67dB
39|40|155°|Not Listed @ TVFool

I need a indoor antenna for my zip 36577. The transmitters are no more than 10 miles from me. I have the homemade DB-4 antenna made from coat hangers but it looks "ghetto" and this antenna needs to be presentable. The DB-4 antenna works great though in my location. I was thinking of the Philips Silver Sensor (unpowered), the or something off eBay that looks like a knock-off of the same thing. I don't want to drill holes in my wall to get a antenna outside. Thanks for any suggestions.

I need a indoor antenna for my zip 36577. The transmitters are no more than 10 miles from me. I have the homemade DB-4 antenna made from coat hangers but it looks "ghetto" and this antenna needs to be presentable. The DB-4 antenna works great though in my location. I was thinking of the Philips Silver Sensor (unpowered), the or something off eBay that looks like a knock-off of the same thing. I don't want to drill holes in my wall to get a antenna outside. Thanks for any suggestions.

The Silver Sensor doesn't pick up VHF. Your FOX, WALA, is on VHF channel 9. You need an antenna with rabbit ears for VHF like this one.
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_209HDTVI/Terk-HDTVi.html?tp=12610

Interesting update. Ever since trimming the latest set of branches and smaller trees, I have completely lost 28.1 RF 22 and 38.1 RF 39. Though last night I was actually watching 38.1 and it worked well. That was around 11pm.

The antenna was aimed at about 50d, through the new clear area I made. Just now I was sick of these two channels being 2 out of 6 bars (though everything else is pretty strong) and I moved it, on a whim, to about 32d. I came back in and rescanned for signal and to my surprise 28.1 is now 5 bars and mostly works. In addition I have picked up 44.1-4 RF 43 at 5 bars. 38.1 shows 4-5 bars but is marginal still. 56.1 RF 41, Boston CW, scans at 4-5 bars but works like 38.1, very broken up. I don't believe it is a simulcast/guide issue. Boston ION 68.1 RF 32 still is 2 bars. I also lost ION 69.1 RF 17 (2 bars).

Most of my other stuff is a full 6 bars with a few 5s.

Kind of amazing an adjustment of a little less than 20 degrees did all that. Also interesting because it's pointed to the left of my new path with tree coverage less than 50 feet from the antenna.

Kind of amazing an adjustment of a little less than 20 degrees did all that. Also interesting because it's pointed to the left of my new path with tree coverage less than 50 feet from the antenna.
Sounds like youre catching those signals on the bounce from somewhere. AFAIK, trees mostly absorb RF signals (except maybe when they are totally soaking wet) instead of bouncing off RF.

I am thinking even a 6 foot raise might make a huge difference. 3 channels are right on the edge and the rest are basically great.
By the way, I never was able to receive the 56.1 RF 41 before.

The Silver Sensor doesn't pick up VHF. Your FOX, WALA, is on VHF channel 9. You need an antenna with rabbit ears for VHF like this one.
http://www.crutchfield.com/p_209HDTVI/Terk-HDTVi.html?tp=12610

Will the amplification or the TERK be too much since the towers are so close to me?

Will the amplification or the TERK be too much since the towers are so close to me?

Yes.

Avoid amplifiers on indoors antennas. They usually cause more problems than they fix.

Yes.

Avoid amplifiers on indoors antennas. They usually cause more problems than they fix.

Doe any one know about using a 7mhz band width o scope to measure up to 47 mhz. If you could take an old analog tv & put a o scope on the out put of the IF where the video detector would be. You should be aboe to see the digital signal from the TV station. It would seem to me that you could also see the noise the amp has & any milti path distortion that caused ghost on analog tv. Would this be cheaper than using a spectrum analyzer. But we need something more than using the signal meter on the TV

A couple of years ago someone had posted a paper that compared the sensitivity of various antennas at different TV spectrum frequencies. It was colorful graph lines showing which antennas did well at certain frequencies.

Does anyone have the link?

It was a great resource for me when I was chosing an atenna and it worked great. Now that some of the stations changed their location in June I have to find a better antenna in the lower frequency range. I live in DC and could pick up all the DC and Baltimore stations before. Now I can't get some of the Baltimore channels and missed the Ravens game. Argggggh. I need to get Baltimore Channel 13 (WJZ) Any advice?
I ditched cable 3 years ago and haven't regreted it.

A couple of years ago someone had posted a paper that compared the sensitivity of various antennas at different TV spectrum frequencies. It was colorful graph lines showing which antennas did well at certain frequencies.

Does anyone have the link?

It was a great resource for me when I was chosing an atenna and it worked great. Now that some of the stations changed their location in June I have to find a better antenna in the lower frequency range. I live in DC and could pick up all the DC and Baltimore stations before. Now I can't get some of the Baltimore channels and missed the Ravens game. Argggggh. I need to get Baltimore Channel 13 (WJZ) Any advice?
I ditched cable 3 years ago and haven't regreted it.

Try www.hdtvprimer.com

For DC & Baltimore, you'll need an antenna (or two) that covers channels 7-51.

Much depends on your location and the relative distances and directions to the towers.

Try www.hdtvprimer.com

More specifically, go to this page for antenna comparisons: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Thanks that's exactly what I was looking for

kevm14
If you can borrow a Sony LCD TV, pull up the Signal Diagnostics screen and you can readout a wealth of useful data. The Virtual Channel, Physical Channel, RF Frequency, Modulation (8VSB), Status (locked or unlocked), Errors, Signal/Noise Ratio (dB), and IF Automatic Gain Control Percentage are all displayed. The best SNR usually tops out about 33dB, but 20dB or a little less should be adequate to get lock and 0 errors. With a strong signal the IF AGC will be 27 to 29 percent. With a weak signal it will usually be a little less than 50 percent.

Also included is a bar graph and signal quality number which is probably related to the inverse uncorrected bit error rate.

This data will help you really know something about your signal quality on all stations.

Bill Cushman
Life Member SMPTE
Contributing Editor Widescreen Review

Oh man that sounds awesome. My TV is Sony but hopelessly analog. At least it does HD.

kevm14
If you can borrow a Sony LCD TV, pull up the Signal Diagnostics screen and you can readout a wealth of useful data. The Virtual Channel, Physical Channel, RF Frequency, Modulation (8VSB), Status (locked or unlocked), Errors, Signal/Noise Ratio (dB), and IF Automatic Gain Control Percentage are all displayed. The best SNR usually tops out about 33dB, but 20dB or a little less should be adequate to get lock and 0 errors. With a strong signal the IF AGC will be 27 to 29 percent. With a weak signal it will usually be a little less than 50 percent.

Also included is a bar graph and signal quality number which is probably related to the inverse uncorrected bit error rate.

This data will help you really know something about your signal quality on all stations.

Bill Cushman
Life Member SMPTE
Contributing Editor Widescreen Review

Thanks Bill,
that's a very good idea. Come to think of it my Toshiba REGZA also has a signal diagnostic screen with all the items you mentioned, buried in the submenus somewhere. Which I never use and forgot about. I'll try that.
Thanks,
Armand

Another option if you have a HDHomeRun network tuner is to use the Silicondust config program to read the signal strength, signal qualtiy and symbol quality. Can be accessed using a WiFi connection via your network.

Yes.

Avoid amplifiers on indoors antennas. They usually cause more problems than they fix.My CM7777 made a big difference on my YouTube on the wrong side of the house.

Can be accessed using a WiFi connection via your network.

This comes in very handy when pointing an antenna on the roof. All you need to have is your laptop.

The thing is I already have a laptop and a USB tuner. But I guess Media Center doesn't give advanced info. Or maybe it does in some hidden menu. There is a feature that brings up an info screen if you press 4-1-1-more info...

My CM7777 made a big difference on my YouTube on the wrong side of the house.
Yeah, but the CM7777 is a quality low noise preamp, completely unlike the high noise junk amps found in typical indoor amplified antennas.

My CM7777 made a big difference on my YouTube on the wrong side of the house.

The only potential for improvements lies in either overcoming cable loss (most indoor cables are very short) or by essentially "substituting" the PA's NF for the tuner's NF.

If the PA's NF is several dB lower than the NF of the tuner, then that's your potential improvement.

Since most indoor amplified antennas have cheap, crappy, and noisy amps, they generally cause more harm than they help.

You have a 7777 which, while not the greatest PA, is a very decent one and is far better than most of the junk ones built into consumer antennas.

The greatest problem is overload... cheap amps don't have much dynamic range and are the first to distort.


Edit: ....I type too much and toooooo sloooowww,,,

The thing is I already have a laptop and a USB tuner.

Yeah but it's nice not to have to change your setup, disconnect antennas, run cable, etc. The network tuner lets you see the setup in the same state it is being watched in. Probably not worth the cost for this feature however, if you have something that works.

But I guess Media Center doesn't give advanced info. Or maybe it does in some hidden menu. There is a feature that brings up an info screen if you press 4-1-1-more info...

I found MCE bars to be very difficult to determine useful signal levels and quality. Once I started using the hdhomerun with signal strength and SNR, it helped immensely in determining what factors were working and not. Basically I had better resolution and a distinction between strength and SNR. This was helpful in dealing with a multipath problem that didn't really show up in the MCE levels. I guess the USB tuner doesn't have any diagnostic software?

That is what I need to check. Maybe there is generic software that will do this.

Mast question: I decided the easiest thing is to buy another 5 foot section of mast like this (http://www.channelmasterstore.com/TV_Antenna_Mast_p/cm-1607.htm) and stack it on my existing section. What do I use to clamp it together? One of these (http://www.channelmasterstore.com/TV_Antenna_Mount_U_Bolt_p/cm-9017.htm)? Or should I try finding a car exhaust style clamp that is 1.25"? Or a band clamp at the seam?

WatchHDTV (FREE) has SNR display for supported cards/sticks, although it may not
be "calibrated" for all. (On my HVR-950 the bar is useful, but good SNR is 50,000+):
http://watchhdtv.net/program.aspx

You might find a separate SNR display application on manu. website (e.g. Hauppage).

TSReader Lite (FREE) displays SNR for supported cards/sticks...AND will display
Bit Error Rate statistics even when there is insufficient SNR for a video display:
http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/index.html
See bottom Left after "Signal Locked": http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/tsr_wusa.jpg
Skip down to "Terrestrial (ATSC)" section for list of supported hardware:
http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/hardware.html
VLC is the video viewer application that works with TSReader (but freebies have limitations):
http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
Even if you don't use myHTPC (has it been OBE???), fol. setup info is useful:
http://www.tsreader.com/tsreader/myHTPC-TSReader.html

Or use a CECB that has been cross-calibrated against a professional Signal Level Meter:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16166929&postcount=9117

What do I use to clamp it together? One of these? Or should I try finding a car exhaust style clamp that is 1.25"? Or a band clamp at the seam?
The easiest is to put a couple of sheet metal screws in it to prevent turning.

The easiest is to put a couple of sheet metal screws in it to prevent turning.
Sheet metal screws??? Better be heavy duty....or they'll sheer off....

Given the torque and vibration these joints are subject to, I would use a clamp
and DRILL a hole big enough to slide a #10 stainless steel screw through + double nut.

My father-in-law used a pipe wrench to "tune" his free standing antenna direction
until he fabricated an alternative "arm" and attachment point near the ground.
No more excursions in the dark to "tune" the antenna.....

CM-9017 is for 1-1/2-in mast:
http://www.summitsource.com/channel-master-9017-ubolt-and-nest-assembly-heavy-duty-1-12-inch-wide-antenna-mast-clamp-support-bracket-mast-pipe-bracket-connection-assembly-part-cm9017-p-9101.html
whereas CM-3082 is for 1-1/4-in mast:
http://www.summitsource.com/channel-master-3082-antenna-mast-ubolt-clamp-support-bracket-1-14-od-mast-clamp-support-antenna-ubolt-support-mast-pipe-clamp-bracket-connection-assembly-part-cm3082-p-8201.html

Or use a muffler clamp....whatever gets the job done....as long as they aren't
dissimilar metals (to prevent galvanic corrosion problems).

sheet metal screws??? Better be heavy duty....or they'll sheer off....
#10 or #12's were what I was thinking, but yeah a bolt and nut thru the tubing would be better. I would be afraid to use a clamp on it because it may distort the tube, making it hard to take apart later. (like trying to get an old muffler off but with no surface to bang on, heh)

Perhaps a screw or two with a nut on the other end, opposed at 90°, could completely take the place of any clamping...the ends are designed to slide together so it shouldn't be too loose. Now for the fun of drilling while up on the roof. I don't see how that could possibly go wrong :D

Oh man that sounds awesome. My TV is Sony but hopelessly analog. At least it does HD.

That's not possible. HD is digital. If your TV is analog, you are NOT watching HD.

You may be watching programming from an HD source, but you are not getting HD quality. You have to have a digital TV to watch HD.

Larry
SF

Um, sorry to break this to you but component video carries 1080i and it looks great. That is an analog interface. In fact, component technically supports 1080p but for some reason no actual devices seem to support it.

What, did you think HD was new for 2005? It was around for 7+ years by that point. My TV is from 2001 and is 1080i. CRT. It has no digital tuner. My HTPC does all the work for me and spits out a very nice picture at 1080i via component.

Um, sorry to break this to you but component video carries 1080i and it looks great. That is an analog interface. In fact, component technically supports 1080p but for some reason no actual devices seem to support it.

What, did you think HD was new for 2005? It was around for 7+ years by that point. My TV is from 2001 and is 1080i. CRT. It has no digital tuner. My HTPC does all the work for me and spits out a very nice picture at 1080i via component.

I had a 32 inch HD CRT from about the same time. I agree, awesome picture quality but unfortunately no tuner and a 4:3 aspect ratio. Hated to see it go but I don't miss moving that thing. Just out of curiosity how are you feeding the OTA signal to the television? A converter box?

My HTPC does all the work for me and spits out a very nice picture at 1080i via component.

Sorry, just reread your post. Nevermind.

Yeah, it's a Windows 7 HTPC. 2 tuner OTA DVR, Hulu, netflix, etc, etc. Built it a week or two ago.

Here is my setup: http://kevinallenmoore.com/photo/v/kmoore/HTPC/

I am looking into buying an antenna and am in need of some help determining the best antenna for my location.


My location is tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3db67147e4947f4c




These are the channels that I would like to receive:
ABC
NBC
CBS
FOX

I made an antenna similar to this uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com ,but I am only receiving a few channels(specifically 9).

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks

I am looking into buying an antenna and am in need of some help determining the best antenna for my location.


My location is tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3db67147e4947f4c




These are the channels that I would like to receive:
ABC
NBC
CBS
FOX

I made an antenna similar to this uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com ,but I am only receiving a few channels(specifically 9).

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks

A CM 4228HD pointed to your stations 42 miles away should get those and your channel 9 only 10 miles away in a different direction.

Mine is pointed to my stations 60 miles away in the east and I get the stations 25 miles north too, including a channel 9.

http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-4228HD-Long-Range-Outdoor/dp/B000FVVKQM/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

But you'll need to be OUTDOORS....and will probably not get FOX if in the attic.

A CM 4228HD pointed to your stations 42 miles away should get those and your channel 9 only 10 miles away in a different direction.

Mine is pointed to my stations 60 miles away in the east and I get the stations 25 miles north too, including a channel 9.

http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-4228HD-Long-Range-Outdoor/dp/B000FVVKQM/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

They might need to be careful with multipath if they rely on the backside of the 4228HD for channel 9 at 10.5 miles. I have a similar situation except reversed. One station was at 50 miles and the rest at 15. I pointed the 4228 at the station 50 miles away. While I received the closer stations at acceptable levels, they had too many dropouts to be acceptable in my opinion. Your extra distance from the stations on the backside may make a difference, then again maybe its my location. I'm sure others here probably know if this could happen.

They might need to be careful with multipath if they rely on the backside of the 4228HD for channel 9 at 10.5 miles. I have a similar situation except reversed. One station was at 50 miles and the rest at 15. I pointed the 4228 at the station 50 miles away. While I received the closer stations at acceptable levels, they had too many dropouts to be acceptable in my opinion. Your extra distance from the stations on the backside may make a difference, then again maybe its my location. I'm sure others here probably know if this could happen.

A lot depends on the quality of the tuner in handing multipath. My setup works with a 2006 Samsung TV and 2007 Hitachi TV. My 2005 Sony DVR catches the VHF stations I'm not pointing at, but not the UHF stations.

A lot depends on the quality of the tuner in handing multipath. My setup works with a 2006 Samsung TV and 2007 Hitachi TV. My 2005 Sony DVR catches the VHF stations I'm not pointing at, but not the UHF stations.

Good point. I have only really tested this on my hdhomerun tuner.

While working on constructing a single channel yagi yesterday, I tried using QIC tubing for the folded di-pole. I found that trying to get a 1.5" inside radius didn't work very well.

I began thinking that maybe I could hammer the QIC flat and use that as the folded di-pole material (it comes out to 10mm wide by 1mm thick). Does anyone have any input into if it makes any difference to use 10AWG, QIC, or flatten QIC (my CM3020 uses flat aluminum)?

guess I will get a combiner, straighten a coat hanger and go for it... I would think it would not be too difficult to get them, as they are only 4 miles away with a full 15 watts.
I had a pretty good signal on the 4228 until Wed and they completely went away.... I'm thinking they must be having transmitter problems.

My problem, discussed here about two weeks ago, was a loose lug screw at the local ch 8 transmitter. Georgia pbs sent me an email today saying that when they went digital they installed a new ac power panel, and one of the main lug screws was not tight or stripped during the install. This causing intermittent power to the transmitter, thus the in & out signal. In fact they were off the air for better than a week, I don't think they knew it, as my little town is in the sticks, and there is no remote monitor at their site. I'm guessing the problem was found last Thrusday has the signal has been good since then.

So the old 4228 is working just fine now...

While working on constructing a single channel yagi yesterday, I tried using QIC tubing for the folded di-pole. I found that trying to get a 1.5" inside radius didn't work very well.

I began thinking that maybe I could hammer the QIC flat and use that as the folded di-pole material (it comes out to 10mm wide by 1mm thick). Does anyone have any input into if it makes any difference to use 10AWG, QIC, or flatten QIC (my CM3020 uses flat aluminum)?

I doubt that flat tubing would matter much.

I don't know anything about GIC tubing, but I've heard about putting dry sand in tubing before bending it around a mandrel. The sand is supposed to prevent crushing and kinks.

What channel are you trying to receive?

Does anyone have any input into if it makes any difference to use 10AWG, QIC, or flatten QIC (my CM3020 uses flat aluminum)?
For folded dipoles and loops, thicker stuff gives a bit wider bandwidth and better SWR in general.
Besides the sand trick, you could also try plumbing tube benders or heating the bend area with a torch before bending. Or a combination of all.

Up to 31 channels as the leaves fall. I might top 35 if Boston's ION starts coming in. Still haven't received my 5 foot mast section...

What channel are you trying to receive?

I'm building three yagis (8 directors/60° corner reflector) for WTAJ (RF32), WLYH (RF23), & WPMT (RF47). I'm also building a "Circular" with reflector (13" seperation) for W08EE-D (WNPB - RF8) and WWPX (RF12).

For folded dipoles and loops, thicker stuff gives a bit wider bandwidth and better SWR in general.

I'm not looking for a very large bandwidth (ie. WTAJ RF32 - WLYH RF23 (maybe W38AN RF33, when it comes on-line) - WPMT RF47 (maybe WGCB RF30 and WGAL RF31 (if it gets approved and built))).

Besides the sand trick, you could also try plumbing tube benders or heating the bend area with a torch before bending. Or a combination of all.

I was trying to use the benders that came with Tube Flaring Kit, but the bend radius is too tight. I could try the sand, but it's a lot easier when the metal is flat. ;):D

Attached is what I have to deal with.

The WLYH path is the presumed reason for receiving the signal from almost directly North.

V3 is a corrected topo. I checked the FCC database to get a more accurate idea of directions. I noticed that the direction for WPMT & WGCB could also be reflections off the peaks of the US30 pass. The RED paths are not active yet.

I'm building three yagis (8 directors/60° corner reflector) for WTAJ (RF32), WLYH (RF23), & WPMT (RF47). I'm also building a "Circular" with reflector (13" seperation) for W08EE-D (WNPB - RF8) and WWPX (RF12).
Are all the channels in the same general direction?

If so I would just use #10 or #8 copper like the bare graound wire you can buy off the spool at Lowes. Since it is soft it is easy to bend. I would make a folded dipole at the 1/2 wave with that wire for each channel you want to receive. Arange on a boom the same way a vhf low band yagi antenna for a deep fringe is built. that would be the longest on the back & the shortest on the front. You would space the dipoles like they are on the 4 bay bow tie , except the boom is horizontal & not vertical like the bow tie is. This would max the signal on the wanted channels. The point is why have band on an antenna for channels you are not needed & when you are wanted just a few channels.

While working on constructing a single channel yagi yesterday, I tried using QIC tubing for the folded di-pole. I found that trying to get a 1.5" inside radius didn't work very well.

I began thinking that maybe I could hammer the QIC flat and use that as the folded di-pole material (it comes out to 10mm wide by 1mm thick). Does anyone have any input into if it makes any difference to use 10AWG, QIC, or flatten QIC (my CM3020 uses flat aluminum)?
Yes, you can simply hammer flat the section you intend to bend. Since TV
channels are 6 MHz wide, ultra-precision isn't as important as in Ham Bands....

A formula for determining equivalence between a rectangular section element and
a round section element is found in the description for VK5DJ's Yagi Calculator:
http://vk5dj.mountgambier.org/Yagi/Yagi.html

Here's more:
http://fermi.la.asu.edu/w9cf/articles/conform/index.html
http://vk5dj.mountgambier.org/Yagi/Yagi.html

===================================
I compared performance of QICT to AWG12 in a UHF Circular Loop....Folded Dipole would be similar:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops
QICT provides much better SWR across the band....
3/8-in Aluminum tubing provides improved SWR....
And HICT (half-inch) would be even better....

Are all the channels in the same general direction?

Take a look at the V3 Topo file I posted above.

Yes, you can simply hammer flat the section you intend to bend.

Good idea! :cool: I hadn't thought to do that, but I can see the benefit of having a QICT with flat bends.

I compared performance of QICT to AWG12 in a UHF Circular Loop....Folded Dipole would be similar:
http://imageevent.com/holl_ands/loops
QICT provides much better SWR across the band....
3/8-in Aluminum tubing provides improved SWR....
And HICT (half-inch) would be even better....

This is the loop antenna I'm building for WWPX and W08EE-D. How did you go about producing the 13" spacing?

I was thinking about using grey PVC to make a inverse table with the grid strapped to the top square and the circle attached to stand-offs (legs).

Although I built Folded Dipole, Loop & Zig-Zags for Hi-VHF, I have not (yet) built & tested
Reflectorized versions. I also have not built any for UHF Band (CM-4228 works, so no need).

Still recovering from a rib injury....but if I build anything it's probably going to be Hi-VHF and
preferably Circular Polarized.....like a Helix.....

"Table" idea sounds good, but "legs" would need cross-bracing (like a real table)
to prevent collapse....which could be some PVC 3x90-deg connectors.....or a
set of "tees" for the legs plus right-angles for the four straight PVC pieces forming
the "table" (to which the reflector screen is attached). [Do you need a picture???]

Here are some construction ideas that might help:
http://home.comcast.net/~ross_anderson/quadix.htm
http://www.af9y.com/helix.htm

Thanks for everyone's help, responding to my post a couple of weeks ago. I decided on a Winegard HD7082P to pull in the Philly channels. Unfortunately, my side yard is sort of a swampy mess right now (not so good for supporting a 24-foot ladder:mad: ) and I was tired of waiting, so I quickly set up the antenna in the attic above my garage last night as a temporary thing because I wanted to try it out.

Observations: my attic is not a big as I thought!

Reception is pretty good - I am pulling in most of the Philly channels with signal strength of 3 out of 5 bars or better (Samsung DTB-H260F). No issues at all with WPVI (VHF 6) or WHYY (VHF 12). I am looking forward to getting my mounting/grounding hardware and putting this outside - when I scan for channels I can see the tuner pausing on a couple of stations but not locking them in, so I am hoping being outside with more elevation will get me there. So far, counting subchannels, I have 24 channels. Not too bad.

Thanks again.

so I am hoping being outside with more elevation will get me there. So far, counting subchannels, I have 24 channels. Not too bad.
Youll probably get another dozen then.;)

systems2000:
How did you go about producing the 13" spacing?

If you are asking about building a VHF-Hi loop with
reflector, this is working for me:

http://www.digitalhome.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=112675

I'm curious and maybe this isn't the right place to ask since it may be TV brand dependent - If so please let me know.


There are still a few analog TV stations broadcasting out there according to a sweep I did with a spectrum analyzer a month or so ago (at least in Colorado Springs). These are low power translaters and community access it appears. My question: Can HDTVs (LCD, plasma, etc.) receive them on the same antenna port as digital reception? In other words if I connect an antenna to the TV, it will use the ATSC tuner for the digital channels. However if I manually tune to an analog channel, are the TV's smart enough to use an NTSC tuner and show the image? Just curious.

Thanks

My question: Can HDTVs (LCD, plasma, etc.) receive them on the same antenna port as digital reception?
Absolutely, the antenna does not care if signal is NTSC (analog), ATSC (digital) or FM radio for that matter.

TVs have separate NTSC and ATSC tuners. Ours (Sony) displays analog channels without the subcarrier indicator, so Channel 2 is analog and Channel 2.1 is digital. It can be somewhat confusing because Digital channels are virtual, the actual RF channel may be different.

If you have to enter local low power channels manually my guess is that they are too weak to display properly. We have a couple nearby and have never been able to receive them. Try plugging you address into the TVfool site to get an idea how strong the signals are in your area.
http://tvfool.com/

/tom

I'm curious and maybe this isn't the right place to ask since it may be TV brand dependent - If so please let me know.


There are still a few analog TV stations broadcasting out there according to a sweep I did with a spectrum analyzer a month or so ago (at least in Colorado Springs). These are low power translaters and community access it appears. My question: Can HDTVs (LCD, plasma, etc.) receive them on the same antenna port as digital reception? In other words if I connect an antenna to the TV, it will use the ATSC tuner for the digital channels. However if I manually tune to an analog channel, are the TV's smart enough to use an NTSC tuner and show the image? Just curious.

Thanks
All ATSC capable DTVs retain the ability to decode NTSC signals (which are still used on Cable).
CECB Coupon Converter Boxes and most OTA STBs are an exception...they only decode ATSC.
Those CECB's with "Analog Pass Thru" can bypass the internal ATSC tuner, passing the NTSC
signals to the attached Analog TV....which requires separate R/C for each type signal.

To tune to a digital channel, a user enters "12.3 or 12-3" whereas analog is just "10".

BTW: The terms "NTSC Tuner" and "ATSC Tuner" can be misleading.
For each Coax input, there is only one "Tuner", which filters, amplifies and
downmixes the RF signal....irrespective of what kind of signal it is.

It is followed by a DECODER CHIP, which is a digital signal processor that
selectively performs NTSC, ATSC or (optional) QAM demodulation.
In many of the new DTVs, the decoder functions have been embedded
into the big TV System-On-A-Chip....plus some external memory chips.

If a DTV has TWO Coax inputs, then it has TWO "Tuners". Sometimes
one of these tuners is incapable of performing the ATSC decode job.

holls_and & Tshcmidt - Thanks for the information. I kind of thought that's the way things were, but wanted to confirm. I have a 13 in analog TV and extended basic cable. Time to upgrade to get the full advantage of HDTV I suppose. Also, analog bandwidth recovery (project Cavalry) and DTA boxes from Comcast (my local provider) are probably on the horizon. Regrettably, given all the shennanigans Comcast does with HD compression I'm reluctant to go the digital cable route. If only we had FiOS ... *sigh*. Maybe just go OTA and BluRay :D We'll see.
Cheers

2) Use heavy gauge antenna pole or galvanized pipe up to a maximum of 10'.


I am wondering how far, if any, I could go above this conventional advice in my situation. I already have my antenna up in one location, but it does not get quite all I hoped but its maybe 70' from some trees, and moving it back to my other chimney will not only make it higher, but about 30' farther away from the trees. (I'll spare the details of my setup --- heights of trees, angle to treetops from current location etc --- unless they become helpful.) Also, there is a deciduous tree about 10' in front of the current location but it would be an issue farther back (and off to the side some).

I have a 14' chimney I will move it to, and can bolt the entire 14' long with mounting brackets into the chimney (not the round-the chimney straps, unless they were somehow more solid which I doubt). Also, the galvanized pipe comes in 21' lengths, so I could have the top 21' of it in one solid piece.

I am going to try this week to get it up with just a 21' piece, but if that does not work I will go higher. Of course, 3' more gets me to the 10' above the mount that is the conventional limit. But could I go above that some safely given that its solid pipe bracketed for many feet into the chimney? If needed, would going 15' above the last mount be stupid?

(I don't want to hassle with guy wires, but if the max safe without them does not quite get what I need then I will; in my city I can go up to 35' high.)

Thanks in advance for any help here!

If needed, would going 15' above the last mount be stupid?
What antenna and what size galvanized pipe ? Guy wires arent really that much hassle.

Guy every 10' above the last bracket is the rule of thumb. If you do something else you are playing engineer. If you go with something heavier than typical antenna mast, it might be safe. But like 300ohm said, guy wires aren't that big a hassle. And even if you could get by safely with that last 15', your antenna will be more stable properly guyed.

What antenna and what size galvanized pipe ? Guy wires arent really that much hassle.

Here is the antenna setup:
Winegard HD 8200U High Definition Platinum VHF/UHF/FM Antenna (HD8200U) (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=HD8200U&d=Winegard-HD-8200U-High-Definition-Platinum-VHFUHFFM-Antenna-%28HD8200U%29&c=TV%20Antennas&sku=615798398491)
Winegard AP 8275 Chromstar 2000 Series VHF/UHF Pre Amplifier (AP8275) (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=SAP8275&d=Winegard-AP-8275-Chromstar-2000-Series-VHFUHF-Pre-Amplifier-%28AP8275%29&c=Pre-Amplifiers&sku=615798100162)

For now I used 1" (1.25" OD) galvanized, but I could possibly use thicker... I am checking with the installer (a guy who works with me but very good). He said what size to get, and I have no idea how he attached it to the pipe (or how anyone does). He has a number of successful installs in the area, which is impressive given that we are about 65 miles from the stations.

If I have about 70 feet of quad shield RG-6, what is the minimum bend radius below which I compromise the signal-carrying capability of the cable? I ask because last night I raised my antenna up another 5 feet. Fortunately I left enough slack inside the garage that I had no issues with length. When I left everything loose, and went inside to check the reception, I was mostly pleased. In fact, Boston ION 68.x went from a dead channel to marginal reception. And Boston CW 56.x seemed pretty good. The Boston ION 68 (RF-32) is kind of a heart breaker because RF-32 has about 1.5dB stronger gain on the 14-foot Winegard that I decided against. Maybe I could add a low noise but also low gain amp, so I don't ruin the majority of my channels which are strong.

However, after taping the cable to the mast and taping the small bundle remaining in the garage, it seemed like my signal took a dump. I untaped the bundle in the garage and that seemed to improve the signal. Tonight I am going to try to increase the bend radius where the cable exits the garage and goes up the mast. I took care not to make the bends ridiculous yet it seems a lot more sensitive than I thought....or it's something else and I am barking up the wrong tree.

If I have about 70 feet of quad shield RG-6, what is the minimum bend radius below which I compromise the signal-carrying capability of the cable?

The minimum bend radius is not an absolute answer. RG-6 with solid copper center conductor is more flexible than RG-6 with copper clad steel center conductor. The insulation also varies in rigidity. For these reasons, I always use solid copper center conductor, even though it is more expensive and harder to find than copperweld.

Unfortunately, once the bend radius has been exceeded you may have to replace the cable to get back to the original specs. This is because the dielectric was deformed and the center conductor is no longer located in the center of the coax.

If the cable is after a preamp it's unlikely that a tight bend caused the loss of a station. The gain of the preamp should overcome any extra VSWR losses.

Crimson Apostle (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=7489591),

I have a CM3020 (10+ years old) mounted on top of a 12' galv. pipe, which is part of a 55' AGL tower. The tower is bolted to the side of my single story house (at the roof peak) and is free standing to 47' (the pipe takes it to 55').

I live in the open and get 50+mph winds on a regular basis. With 8'+ of galv pipe sticking out of the top of the tower (supported by my rotor) and the CM3020 mounted to the very top, I don't get any problems.

Using galv pipe is a lot stronger than antenna pipe, but unless you are using larger diameter pipe, I would follow the 10' rule, but no more than 15'. It's your setup. If the pipe doesn't have a lot of play and you don't have a wind or ice problem, make a judgement call.

Just a note about joining pipes. Try to make sure you have at least one clamp (preferably two - more is always better) between the joint and the free standing section.

I noticed something interesting over the weekend. It appears the VHF-Low side of my CM3020 is affecting the reception on my Quad (which is over 8' apart in height).

As I rotated my CM3020 to acquire WPMT and WMAR at the same time, my reception of WWPX went out. I stepped outside to take a look at the antenna orientations and saw the the back-side of the CM3020 was directly above the Pyramid.

Interesting piece of information, considering that just two nights prior, I was sitting in the hot tub looking at the CM3020 and thinking about removing the VHF-Low elements.

The minimum bend radius is not an absolute answer. RG-6 with solid copper center conductor is more flexible than RG-6 with copper clad steel center conductor. The insulation also varies in rigidity. For these reasons, I always use solid copper center conductor, even though it is more expensive and harder to find than copperweld.

Unfortunately, once the bend radius has been exceeded you may have to replace the cable to get back to the original specs. This is because the dielectric was deformed and the center conductor is no longer located in the center of the coax.

If the cable is after a preamp it's unlikely that a tight bend caused the loss of a station. The gain of the preamp should overcome any extra VSWR losses.

I believe this (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10216&cs_id=1021603&p_id=3035&seq=1&format=2) is what I bought. Then I cut the ends off, ran it, and re-terminated with PPC EX6XL (or whatever they are) compression F connectors.

I definitely haven't bent it in a way that you could consider it to have gotten kinked. Let's say as little as a 2 or 3" bend radius. Is that a problem? I read that the center conductor does need to be centrally placed inside the dielectric. Speaking of which, does the signal actually propagate in RF through the cable, like between the center conductor and shield? Someone was telling me that it just conducts down the center conductor and there's not really a field involved - and the dieletric and shielding are JUST for shielding, not to help the signal propagation. I'm not sure that's true.

I have no preamp but I am wondering if I should add one to help my marginal channels, without hurting my strong ones (i.e. tuner overload). Maybe enough gain to overcome the signal loss from the cable length, plus a little extra for the weak stations. What are my options for the highest quality (low noise) but modest gain preamps? And how close to the antenna must I place it? How about just inside my garage, about 10-12 feet from the antenna? CPA-19? CM7777?

Here is the antenna setup:
Thats a big boy. I personally wouldnt feel safe with 15 ft unsupported with it with 1 1/4" OD galvanized water pipe.

Let's say as little as a 2 or 3" bend radius. Is that a problem?
Thats very tight. With quad shield, I would have a 2 or 2 1/2 ft minimum coiled diameter. But the very act of coiling turns the coax into a crude inductor. I would only use the amount of coax needed plus a few feet. A quality preamp on that length of run is definately a good idea.

General rule of thumb for coax bend radius is no less than 10 times the diameter of the cable. For a .25" diameter cable, that would come out to 2.5".

Crimson Apostle (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/member.php?u=7489591),

I have a CM3020 (10+ years old) mounted on top of a 12' galv. pipe, which is part of a 55' AGL tower. The tower is bolted to the side of my single story house (at the roof peak) and is free standing to 47' (the pipe takes it to 55').

I live in the open and get 50+mph winds on a regular basis. With 8'+ of galv pipe sticking out of the top of the tower (supported by my rotor) and the CM3020 mounted to the very top, I don't get any problems.

Using galv pipe is a lot stronger than antenna pipe, but unless you are using larger diameter pipe, I would follow the 10' rule, but no more than 15'. It's your setup. If the pipe doesn't have a lot of play and you don't have a wind or ice problem, make a judgement call.

Just a note about joining pipes. Try to make sure you have at least one clamp (preferably two - more is always better) between the joint and the free standing section.

Thanks for the scoop!

My installer friend told me that galvanized pipe was going to be a pain to get an antenna mounted on, even only 7' above the chimney. And a really big pain if we had to make it go higher. So he strongly recommended that I buy a ChannelMaster 1630 30' telescoping mast (http://www.channelmaster.com/product-overview.php?proID=42&catID=38). It is on order....

Someone was telling me that it just conducts down the center conductor and there's not really a field involved - and the dieletric and shielding are JUST for shielding, not to help the signal propagation. I'm not sure that's true.

You're right, it's not true.

I have no preamp but I am wondering if I should add one to help my marginal channels, without hurting my strong ones (i.e. tuner overload).

That's the conundrum, how to get enough gain without overload.

In most cases the 7777 has too much gain and can overload. In most cases the HDP-269 has enough gain, and even it can overload in a strong signal environment.

The best way to select a preamp is to look closely at the TVfool and FMfool reports, compare the difference between the strongest and weakest TV stations, determine if the angles between the stations can help reduce overload, analyze the antenna selection for it's ability to pick up FM, consider if the antenna is a singe antenna for VHF and UHF or two separate antennas, and make the preamp selection accordingly.

TG, are you a politician?

You don't answer anything with You're right, it's not true..

Which is false (not true) ?:

1. Cable dielectric and shielding is just for shielding

2. Cable dielectric and shielding is to help signal propagation

General rule of thumb for coax bend radius is no less than 10 times the diameter of the cable. For a .25" diameter cable, that would come out to 2.5".

If that is true, I guess the last 15' of the 100' rolls of RG6U Quad Shield I picked up at Home Depot is bad, as they are coiled really tight. However, after using up 2 rolls they seem to be ok as far as I can tell.

oz

TG, are you a politician?

You don't answer anything with .

Which is false (not true) ?:

1. Cable dielectric and shielding is just for shielding

2. Cable dielectric and shielding is to help signal propagation

It really doesn't matter. (Spoken like a true politician.)

It really doesn't matter. (Spoken like a true politician.)

I guess that's why you are a "Special" member as you don't really matter.:)

If that is true, I guess the last 15' of the 100' rolls of RG6U Quad Shield I picked up at Home Depot is bad, as they are coiled really tight.
You have a point about that, some of the stuff at Lowes or Home Depot could be bad (bad meaning it still works, but the impedance is off) from the get go. The roll diameter used by the cable companies is much larger and doesnt get as tight at the end of their roll as the beginning of the roll at Lowes or Home Depot.

You have a point about that, some of the stuff at Lowes or Home Depot could be bad (bad meaning it still works, but the impedance is off) from the get go. The roll diameter used by the cable companies is much larger and doesnt get as tight at the end of their roll as the beginning of the roll at Lowes or Home Depot.

So how can you determine if it's impedance is off? And if it is off, what kind of a performance hit would it cause? I really don't want to re-do all my cabling as I just replaced all my 20+ year old rg6 with the Home Depot stuff. It was a great improvement BTW.

oz

Thats very tight. With quad shield, I would have a 2 or 2 1/2 ft minimum coiled diameter. But the very act of coiling turns the coax into a crude inductor. I would only use the amount of coax needed plus a few feet. A quality preamp on that length of run is definately a good idea.

Can anyone help me pick a quality preamp that is A) the lowest noise possible and B) not ridiculous on the gain such that it blows out my strong channels? Price wise, anything under $250 I'd probably consider.

Also, would running the coax down 7 feet of mast be a problem? I assumed not since it is quad shield...but I could have sworn my reception was better when everything was hanging out, un-taped.

General rule of thumb for coax bend radius is no less than 10 times the diameter of the cable. For a .25" diameter cable, that would come out to 2.5".

Not sure on the diameter but it sounds like I was at the minimum. I've since tried to straighten out the bends...

Also, someone was discussing the two different kinds of center conductor. Monoprice says mine is "18AWG Solid .040ˇ± Bare Copper-Clad Steel Conductor." I can't remember if that is the desired one or not, though.

That's the conundrum, how to get enough gain without overload.

In most cases the 7777 has too much gain and can overload. In most cases the HDP-269 has enough gain, and even it can overload in a strong signal environment.

The best way to select a preamp is to look closely at the TVfool and FMfool reports, compare the difference between the strongest and weakest TV stations, determine if the angles between the stations can help reduce overload, analyze the antenna selection for it's ability to pick up FM, consider if the antenna is a singe antenna for VHF and UHF or two separate antennas, and make the preamp selection accordingly.

One of the preamps I looked at had a built-in FM trap. I assume that would at least solve the FM problem. My antenna is a Winegard 7697 which I think is a 7-69 unit. I guess FM shouldn't be much of a concern for me.

Is the Antennas Direct CPA-19 (http://www.erwincomputers.com/cpa19.html) any good?

So how can you determine if it's impedance is off?
With pricey equipment. But the antenna/balun and TV input impedance may not be perfect either and impedance varies with frequency, so in many cases it could work in your favor if the coax impedance is off.

Monoprice says mine is "18AWG Solid .040ˇ± Bare Copper-Clad Steel Conductor." I can't remember if that is the desired one or not, though.
The most desirable one is the solid copper conductor. But I wouldnt worry about it. You may want to replace it in 5 - 10 years anyway.

That's the conundrum, how to get enough gain without overload.

In most cases the 7777 has too much gain and can overload. In most cases the HDP-269 has enough gain, and even it can overload in a strong signal environment.


Living just 3/4 of a mile from Sutro Tower which has one VHF and 10 UHF transmitters, I haven't found any preamp that will work. Even the HDP-269 is overloaded.

What I need is about four or five dB of gain. Several of the Sacramento-Stockton stations are received at the 13 to 14 dB SNR level much of the time, so if I could add just four or five dB it would solve my problems with them. I haven't found a preamp that will turn down to that low of a level.

If anyone finds a preamp that will work in a high RF environment, please let us know!

Larry
SF

I haven't found a preamp that will turn down to that low of a level.
Have you tried the Kitz Tech one ? It has a gain adjustment on it and is low noise.

Can anyone help me pick a quality preamp that is A) the lowest noise possible and B) not ridiculous on the gain such that it blows out my strong channels? Price wise, anything under $250 I'd probably consider.

Also, would running the coax down 7 feet of mast be a problem? I assumed not since it is quad shield...but I could have sworn my reception was better when everything was hanging out, un-taped.

I'm using the HDP-269 (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=ANWHDP269&d=Winegard-HDP-269-SquareShooter-PreAmplifier-for-SquareShooter-SS1000-%28HDP269%29&c=Pre-Amplifiers&sku=615798396145) on a 91XG pointed at 169 degrees at a station 50 miles away. However, I'm 15 miles from all the majors station at 308 degrees. I have no problems with overload from the backside. I know the signal is significantly less on the back, but I'm sure there's still plenty there. Here's my tvfool if it helps:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8adf5abaf21f2a

I've considered hooking the preamp to my 4228 pointed directly at the closer stations just to see if it overloads.

Living just 3/4 of a mile from Sutro Tower which has one VHF and 10 UHF transmitters, I haven't found any preamp that will work. Even the HDP-269 is overloaded.

What I need is about four or five dB of gain. Several of the Sacramento-Stockton stations are received at the 13 to 14 dB SNR level much of the time, so if I could add just four or five dB it would solve my problems with them. I haven't found a preamp that will turn down to that low of a level.

If anyone finds a preamp that will work in a high RF environment, please let us know!

Larry
SF

This is the tvfool report that I came up with for your location:
http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8adff1ff2d5b01

Which Sacramento-Stockton stations do you need?:

KCRA NBC 3.1 virtual on real RF CH 35
KVIE PBS 6.1 on 9
KXTV ABC on 10
KOVR CBS 13.1 on 25
KTFK 64.1 on 26
KMMW 47.1 on 28
KSPX 29.1 on 48
KMAX CW 31.1 on 21
KTXL FOX 40.1 on 40
KQCA 58.1 on 46

The NTIA spec for CECB tuner overload is -5.0 dBm, and that's for just one signal and doesn't even consider the gain added by your antenna. So, it looks like you are already at the overload point. I think it's going to be more involved than just finding the right preamp. What will help you is that your strongest local stations and the Sacramento-Stockton stations are in opposite directions so that good F to B ratio antennas will make it possible.

Living just 3/4 of a mile from Sutro Tower which has one VHF and 10 UHF transmitters, I haven't found any preamp that will work. Even the HDP-269 is overloaded.

What I need is about four or five dB of gain. Several of the Sacramento-Stockton stations are received at the 13 to 14 dB SNR level much of the time, so if I could add just four or five dB it would solve my problems with them. I haven't found a preamp that will turn down to that low of a level.

If anyone finds a preamp that will work in a high RF environment, please let us know!

Larry
SF

Larry, have you tried an attenuator in FRONT of the pre-amp?

If anyone finds a preamp that will work in a high RF environment, please let us know.IMO, there is no amp that would be useful with so much strong RF present. I would imagine at your distance, you have some readings pretty close to 0 dbm already. (OUCH!!) The very forgiving HDP-269 does in fact overload at my location 4 miles outside DC, but is a stellar performer once you get about 10 miles out.

I would concentrate on attenuating as much out of band (especially FM) signals being picked up incidently by the antenna. By giving the tuner some additional breathing room you will have a better chance of improving the reliabilty of the weaker, more distant stations you desire.

The closest stations I actually point at are 19 miles away, and there are trees, so maybe I will be ok with one of the common low noise preamps.

I'm using the HDP-269 (http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=03&p=ANWHDP269&d=Winegard-HDP-269-SquareShooter-PreAmplifier-for-SquareShooter-SS1000-%28HDP269%29&c=Pre-Amplifiers&sku=615798396145) on a 91XG pointed at 169 degrees at a station 50 miles away. However, I'm 15 miles from all the majors station at 308 degrees. I have no problems with overload from the backside. I know the signal is significantly less on the back, but I'm sure there's still plenty there. Here's my tvfool if it helps:

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8adf5abaf21f2a

I've considered hooking the preamp to my 4228 pointed directly at the closer stations just to see if it overloads.

My antenna has a front to back ratio of 11 to 20dB depending on the frequency. That is a HUGE amount of gain loss.

The closest stations I actually point at are 19 miles away, and there are trees, so maybe I will be ok with one of the common low noise preamps.The HDP-269 would work fine for your situation. If you find it works well on 1 set, but you need more gain for additional splits, you can add a CM distribution amp without risk of overload. I have used this combination just 9 miles outside DC with a 91-XG, and all 4 tuners get reliable reception of all the Baltimore/Washington UHF stations. There is even a 160kw UHF station only 2 miles away(off-axis) that doesn't overload the system.

My antenna has a front to back ratio of 11 to 20dB depending on the frequency. That is a HUGE amount of gain loss.

The 91XG has a quoted front to back ratio of 28 dBi so its huge too but I'm fairly certain I still see signals creeping in from various directions. My guess would be that the quoted values are far from what is realized in real situations. Others here probably would know more than me though. I do know that I was still urged to get the HDP-269 instead of a higher gain preamp by quite a few here even with this antenna. Still, being 19 miles away, my guess is it will work but again, others here have more experience. I saw a drop in my noise levels as well with the HDP-269 once my tuner's amp was mostly out of the picture.

I have one station that comes in marginally due to it's angle. If the 269 doesn't saturate on my 4228 I may pick up a second one. I think if I just reduce the noise from the 4228 feed, that alone will be enough to get it in all the time. If I check this out anytime soon I'll post back the results.

Living just 3/4 of a mile from Sutro Tower which has one VHF and 10 UHF transmitters, I haven't found any preamp that will work. Even the HDP-269 is overloaded.

What I need is about four or five dB of gain. Several of the Sacramento-Stockton stations are received at the 13 to 14 dB SNR level much of the time, so if I could add just four or five dB it would solve my problems with them. I haven't found a preamp that will turn down to that low of a level.

If anyone finds a preamp that will work in a high RF environment, please let us know!

Larry
SF

A distribution amp like motels use can hanlde high rf. they can handle 70 channels while each one of those channels is about +3 db. K mart has one. The only draw back is run on ac & the are not for out doors. You need to put it in the attic near the antenna & run the lead in as short as you can from the antenna to the amp.

Have you tried the Kitz Tech one ? It has a gain adjustment on it and is low noise.

Yes, I tried the Kitz Tech and as I DEcreased gain on it my weak signals got stronger, but I couldn't turn it down enough. :) Signals were best without it. I returned it and got my money back.

Which Sacramento-Stockton stations do you need?:

KCRA NBC 3.1 virtual on real RF CH 35
KVIE PBS 6.1 on 9
KXTV ABC on 10
KOVR CBS 13.1 on 25
KTFK 26.2 64.1 on 26
KMMW 47.1 on 28
KSPX 29.1 on 48
KMAX CW 31.1 on 21
KTXL FOX 40.1 on 40
KQCA 58.1 on 46

KCRA, KMAX and KQCA, which transmit from the same combined antenna, come in about 95-100% of the time, as does KXTV. KVIE and KOVR hang right at the cliff edge - sometimes viewable, sometimes not, and the rest are always below the cliff edge. It would be nice to get about 4 to 5 dB more gain, making the first four stations 100% reliable and bringing KVIE and KOVR above the cliff edge.

I have not tried putting an attenuator in front of the preamp, as suggested by ProjectSHO89. That's something to experiment with!

I do have something like a distribution amp, as suggested by David-the-dtv-man. It's the RCA DT140M Mini Drop Amplifier, and that keeps the four distributed signals at about the same level as connecting the antenna direct to each receiver. KMAX, for example, is 19 to 22 dB with the antenna connected direct to the TV. Connecting the distribution amp and then using one of the outputs gives me the same 19 to 22 dB. I don't gain anything, but I don't lose anything with it either, and I don't overload the receivers.

Is their a distribution amp that will work like the Mini Drop Amp but provide a little more gain of the original signal?

Digital Rules, yes, my strong signals are close to 0 DB. The ones from Sutro are between -3 and -9 dB, so I'm working with lots of signal in one direction and trying to get stations with -95 in the other direction.

I'm open to all ideas! Thanks to all for the suggestions so far.

Larry
SF

Added comment to Rabbit73... in case this helps any... looking at the TVFool list (and you do have the right location) I get all of the stations in the green and yellow areas, and many in the pink. Channels (RF) 36, 47, 23, 51 are always there and usually there's plenty of headroom above the 15 dB cliff edge. 49 and 50 are like 21, 35 and 46, 95 to 100% reliable.

Larry
SF

Wow that HDP-269 seems pretty cool. Not as much gain as the big guns, but enough input headroom to avoid clipping originating from pre-amplification. I still worry about overloading the tuner itself but from reading here and a thread here (http://www.highdefforum.com/local-hdtv-info-reception/23092-winegard-hdp-269-revisited.html) I think I'll be ok.

Also, here is the spec sheet (http://winegard.com/kbase/upload/WC-809%20_HDP-269.pdf) and installation instructions (http://winegard.com/kbase/upload/2451964.pdf) if anyone is interested. Very moderately priced, too.

One interesting note in the instructions: it wants you to place the power injector at the TV tuner, up to 150 feet from the preamp.

Specifically,

To maximize the operating life of the amplifier, install the power injector close to the TV receiver (if only one will be used with the
antenna) or the first signal splitter. A maximum preamp-to-power injector length of 150 feet RG-6 or 150 feet RG-59 is acceptable.

Works for me as I have maybe 70 feet and placing it in my living room is more convenient than running some romex and putting an outlet in my garage.

Does anyone think there is a better unit than this for my needs? If not, I'll go for it.

I still worry about overloading the tuner itself

Not sure what tuner your using but if it's anything like the hdhomerun, you should be fine. My guess would be that the preamp saturates before the tuner. The hdhomerun has a fairly large dynamic range handling 40dB above 100% signal level.

Using a PCIe Avermedia Duet dual tuner (internally). Good luck finding specs.

One interesting note in the instructions: it wants you to place the power injector at the TV tuner, up to 150 feet from the preamp.
Not that interesting as most preamps hook up the same way, heh.

Using a PCIe Avermedia Duet dual tuner (internally). Good luck finding specs.

I know what you mean. I had to email Silicon Dust tech support to get a translation of percentages for signal quality. The values for signal strength were in their forum from another user asking for them. You might try emailing them if your really concerned.

Anyone know what the deal is with maximizing the life of the HDP-269 by installing the power injector close to the TV? Are they suggesting having a significant distance of coax in between the preamp and power supply? Mine is only a few feet away.

Not that interesting as most preamps hook up the same way, heh.

I looked at another preamp and they showed you hooking the power supply up within fairly close proximity of the preamp. And that's what I'd expect. Not sure why they'd rather you install the power injector inside your house, just to run the power all the way back up the cable. That seems less desirable for a number of reasons....but hey if it works, that's easier for me to install.

EDIT: Ordered it. I already raised the antenna the most I feel comfortable with. Whatever I get with this preamp is all I am going to get at this address, I think.

Anyone know what the deal is with maximizing the life of the HDP-269 by installing the power injector close to the TV? Are they suggesting having a significant distance of coax in between the preamp and power supply? Mine is only a few feet away.Possibly to avoid the extreme summertime heat in the attic????

I already raised the antenna the most I feel comfortable with.
Did raising the antenna help any? Remember, you need to find the wave peak along with the height.

With an outdoor antenna, you're going to want a coax ground block (connected to the house electrical ground) between the power inserter and the antenna.

Digital Rules, yes, my strong signals are close to 0 DB. The ones from Sutro are between -3 and -9 dB, so I'm working with lots of signal in one direction and trying to get stations with -95 in the other direction.Wow, -95 in a metropolitan environment will be tough with a single antenna set-up. I just don't see amplification helping you other than distribution for multiple splits. The slightest bit of boost will most likely drown out any chance of getting those weaker stations. The antenna itself will need to do all the work.

The best I can do reliably is around -90 with a 91-XG. http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8ecd2d529b2d8f The 91-XG nulls out the off axis signals well, except for the ones @ 180 degrees. It reliably picks up stations up to 30 miles from the back of the antenna.

Wow, -95 in a metropolitan environment will be tough with a single antenna set-up. I just don't see amplification helping you other than distribution for multiple splits. The slightest bit of boost will most likely drown out any chance of getting those weaker stations. The antenna itself will need to do all the work.


I guess I'm doing pretty good under the circumstances. The KMAX RF 21, KCRA RF 35, KQCA RF 46 tower is 65 miles away over a 1000' hill that's about 15 miles away, and using a CM4228 I'm getting signals in the 19 to 24 dB SNR range on my Sony receiver. TVFool shows KMAX at -90.2, KCRA at -94.0 and KQCA at -98.3 dBm.

I think my big benefit is the direction of the signals. The power from Sutro Tower is coming from 267 degrees, while the Sacramento stations are at 56 degrees.

Larry
SF

Not sure why they'd rather you install the power injector inside your house, just to run the power all the way back up the cable. That seems less desirable for a number of reasons....but hey if it works, that's easier for me to install.
The main reason they do that is so they dont have to weatherproof the power supply and making for an easier and safer installation. The downside is a voltage drop on long runs.

Which preamp required a power outlet nearby ?

Does anyone know the capability of the XG91 at getting upper VHF. I am getting two channels out of Baltimore 11,13 at round 62% with a few dropouts. I wonder if I get a VHF antenna how much those signals will improve.

Does anyone know the capability of the XG91 at getting upper VHF. I am getting two channels out of Baltimore 11,13 at round 62% with a few dropouts. I wonder if I get a VHF antenna how much those signals will improve.Whatever VHF reception you are getting now is purely incidental, as the 91-XG is designed for UHF. Since it does pick those stations up fairly well, a small VHF-HI antenna should improve things quite a bit for you. (You may even get the powerhouse ABC affiliate out of DC depending on you location) I would recommend the inexpensive Antennacraft Y5-7-13 in your situation. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=3&oq=antennacraft&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS306US306&q=antennacraft+y5-7-13 . Keep the antennas at least 2.5 feet from each other if possible. Combine the 2 antennas with a UVSJ into a single downlead. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4DKUS_enUS306US306&q=uvsj