Originally posted by jchas41
yeah, I am hearing a lot about the squareshooter. I actually was able to pull CBS 5.1 from Syracuse for a while yesterday as well, so I think I have pretty good reception considering that is 44 miles away and I have an indoor antenna! What squareshooter should I be considering, the 1000 or 2000? Thanks.

I'd go with the 1000. It doesn't have an amp. The 2000 has an amp but it is very low gain and you are stuck with it like it or not. The 1000 if the antenna needs a boost you can add any size preamp you need. People here have put a CM 7777 with 28 db gain and have had excellent results. If you find you don't need an amp then you put the bucks you saved in your pocket.

Originally posted by Johnster
Hi!

Wonder if anyone can help me out with this.

I recently got myself a MyHD for my HTPC and I'm very pleased with it. I had to get a big Channel Master (3818?) antenna though for OTA HDTV as I'm pretty far out in Maryland to pick up the Washington DC based HDTV OTA stations. I mounted the antenna on my roof (ranch) and pointed it in the best direction I could figure out based on the antennaweb information about the station directions.

The signal on most of the stations that I can receive is normally at least 60% and ofter up to 90+%. I figured I had achieved success!

However..maddeningly..if it's rainy, foggy, drizzly, etc..my signal drops to almost nothing across the board.

What's going on? Do I have some sort of short in my coax cable? Is my ground setup (have ground from the antenna run from a grounding block via unsheathed copper to a grounding rod about 40 feet away) incorrect? Is this one of those "multipath" problems?

I'm stumped. Any insights would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

You don't mention where you are? I used to live in Maryland. The DC stations carry about 60 miles fairly well. I'd double check the conections on the antenna make sure they are water tight and have a boot over them. Sounds like you grounded correctly. Try to aim your antenna again. I know most people up there try to split the difference to get DC and Baltimore stations. Under normal weather that will work but bad weather and digital just isn't happy. You may need a rotor if you find this to be the case.
You could also get a seperate UHF which will give you a much stronger signal for the digital channels then the 3018. Combos are more likely to have problems with rain snow and like. When it rains here my digital signals go up 10 points on the UHF but on my combo they drop 10 to 20 points and sometimes gone all together.

I have really lost it this time. I posted several new threads in the HDTV section without knowing what I was doing. Anyway, I need some help with our local Fox station that is broadcasting their HD signal at 1kw ERP. Would it be posible to receive this signal about 10-12 miles away? They say the antenna is 100 feet high.I have been using rabbit ear antennas in the attic, but am considering a good antenna to receive the low power Fox signal. I just don't lnow if I will be able to get the signal with a quality antenna. Please help.

Originally posted by rldud
I have really lost it this time. I posted several new threads in the HDTV section without knowing what I was doing. Anyway, I need some help with our local Fox station that is broadcasting their HD signal at 1kw ERP. Would it be posible to receive this signal about 10-12 miles away? They say the antenna is 100 feet high.I have been using rabbit ear antennas in the attic, but am considering a good antenna to receive the low power Fox signal. I just don't lnow if I will be able to get the signal with a quality antenna. Please help.
It will depend a lot on what frequency it's broadcast on; the lower the channel, the less power is needed to transmit and achieve decent range, and what the terrain is like between the transmitter and your antenna.

I'm able to receive a station about 30 miles away in NYC that's on VHF12 and only broadcasting at 125 watts using a Channel Master 4228 antenna and a Channel Master 7777 preamp in my attic. First it's a UHF antenna, so VHF12 just manages to work OK since it's close to the UHF band, and second, being in the attic attenuates the signal pretty significantly versus it being outdoors. I also have nothign between the transmitter and my antenna -- the path is almost entirely over water.

If it were 1Kw on an upper UHF channel, you'd be pushing your luck, I think. But if it's VHF or lower UHF, you may have a chance.

Originally posted by Johnster
However..maddeningly..if it's rainy, foggy, drizzly, etc..my signal drops to almost nothing across the board.

You don't say how far away you are, and if you have theoretical line-of-sight. For me, even with properly weathered connections, I lose some long-distance stations during rain events. UHF does attenuate slightly in water. However, due to my extreme distance (Sings: Somewhere, over the hor-i-zon... Way out there...) I rely exclusively on tropospheric scatter to get signals. Scatter is definitely weakened by rain.

I'd check those connections, and check the aim. If you hold your fist out at arm's length, it marks about 10 degrees. Trying to eyeball for a 1-degree location is hard. Not impossible, but very hard. Use a cell phone and talk to somebody who's watching the signal meters while you're turning the antenna.

The signal is UHF, the assigned frequency is 57, and the terrain is fairly flat with a few small hills, so I guess from your message it would be a long shot to receive it. Another question, does Radio Shack have any good antennas? I looked at their selections, and the employee was trying to tell me their HD antenna with built in amplifier was the one I needed. Oh and by the way, he also told me that it was the one needed for HD broadcasts. He seemed a little suprised when I told him I was using rabbit ears and was receiving HD just fine on the other channels. Thanks for the info.

Originally posted by rldud
The signal is UHF, the assigned frequency is 57, and the terrain is fairly flat with a few small hills, so I guess from your message it would be a long shot to receive it. Another question, does Radio Shack have any good antennas? I looked at their selections, and the employee was trying to tell me their HD antenna with built in amplifier was the one I needed. Oh and by the way, he also told me that it was the one needed for HD broadcasts. He seemed a little suprised when I told him I was using rabbit ears and was receiving HD just fine on the other channels. Thanks for the info.
The HD designation on antennas is a marketing gimmick.

The only differences with older antennas is that the UHF top end has changed over the years, so antennas changed with it since they don't need to receive up to UHF84 anymore; UHF69 is the top end thus the antenna design would be altered so as to optimize for the new range.

Any normal-looking multi-element VHF/UHF or UHF Yagi Radio Shack antenna should be fine (I've seen reports that these are usually just rebranded antennas made by others anyway); anything looking a little odd I would question. I wouldn't use a preamp from Radio Shack; no published specs and lots of reports of high noise levels -- so if one of their antennas has a built-in preamp, I'd want to know who's really making it. Use a Channel Master or Winegard preamp if you need a preamp.

One of the best UHF-only antennas is the Channel Master 4228. Unless you need low or mid VHF, I wouldn't start with anything else. You can easily get it online from places like www.warrenelectronics.com or www.solidsignal.com in just a few days. Lowes often has Channel Master antennas, too -- though not sure if the 4228 is something they carry.

Yeah, I think channel 57 would be a long shot. Frankly it wouldn't stop me from trying to get it though. :) A 4228 with a 7777 preamp, on a 9521A rotator and mounted outside, as high as you can get but at least above the roofline would give you the best chance. One other variable is that where you put the antenna can still make a difference, but you have to start somewhere.

I live in Wichita Falls, texas area and I have a model 4248 channel master antennae. I pick up Sherman, Tx which is 107 miles away every night of the week and also pick up some of the Dallas stationsbut not all the time, Dallas is 130 miles from where I live, but where I live in Texas is flat so that is probably one of the reasons I get out as far as I do. My antennae is 10 feet above the roof, the stations I am talking about are digital uhf I am picking up not analog.


Bill

Originally posted by rldud
The signal is UHF, the assigned frequency is 57, and the terrain is fairly flat with a few small hills, so I guess from your message it would be a long shot to receive it. Another question, does Radio Shack have any good antennas? I looked at their selections, and the employee was trying to tell me their HD antenna with built in amplifier was the one I needed. Oh and by the way, he also told me that it was the one needed for HD broadcasts. He seemed a little suprised when I told him I was using rabbit ears and was receiving HD just fine on the other channels. Thanks for the info.

I use the radio shack uhf only outdoor antenna. It's less that $25 and I can get all of my locals from 70 miles away. I don't know about the stations broadcast power, but the highest frequency I use is 56 (CBS).

Originally posted by rldud
The signal is UHF, the assigned frequency is 57, and the terrain is fairly flat with a few small hills, so I guess from your message it would be a long shot to receive it. Another question, does Radio Shack have any good antennas? I looked at their selections, and the employee was trying to tell me their HD antenna with built in amplifier was the one I needed. Oh and by the way, he also told me that it was the one needed for HD broadcasts. He seemed a little suprised when I told him I was using rabbit ears and was receiving HD just fine on the other channels. Thanks for the info.

You should have a shot at it. See http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DS752055.html. You're well within the converage area for 1 kw.

Actually, the 4228 has less gain at channel 57 than pretty much any large yagi/corner reflector. I'd suggest the Antennasdirect XG 91. The 4228 will do *better* on the lower channels while the Yagi will favor the upper. Also, I wouldn't recc. the 4228 for the 9521a rotor outdoors. It's too heavy and has too much wind load. Finally, use at least RG6 coax and try to keep your cable run as short as possible. If you have >75 ft. consider a preamp but you'll need lower gain as close in as you are or you may run into overload from other stations. Lower gain also means higher headroom and signal handling. Maybe the 16 db gain preamp from Antennasdirect or something similar.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
You can see the Yagi type antennas outgain the 8-bay setups in the Net Gain UHF category by a couple DB. The XG91 has a gain pattern similar to the DAT75, so it would be a good choice.

My antenna: http://www.starkelectronic.com/del937.htm
has similar gain (since it has the VU-8PZ addon) to the XG91, but it's gigantic due to the VHF section, and like 3 times as much.
Curse you, VHF-lo!

Originally posted by Rack
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
You can see the Yagi type antennas outgain the 8-bay setups in the Net Gain UHF category by a couple DB. The XG91 has a gain pattern similar to the DAT75, so it would be a good choice.
Those are simulated gains; not real-world measurements.

Iam using a silver sensor and can only get my local cbs at 25-30%(it is 45 miles away operating at 21kw in El Paso Texas) and my family will not let me put up an outdoor antenna. Do you guys have any tricks that can help me get a better signal perhaps for tin foil would help? I already am using a 12db amplifier a rg6 25ft coax cable and a philips 5 ft coax gold. Thanks in advance! Oh and my tv seems to be picking up signals at 40%

Originally posted by Rack
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
You can see the Yagi type antennas outgain the 8-bay setups in the Net Gain UHF category by a couple DB.

Generally true above around channel 40. Below 40 the 8-bay is probably the better choice if the installation will allow for the weight and wind load.

Greets!

Currently I'm using a Silver Sensor antennae with my LG-4200a OTA receiver. My reception is really good, except for two things. First, I only get PBS occasionally, which isnt a huge deal. Second, I live near a train track, and whenever trains go by I lose signal on some channels (I'm assuming this is a multi-path issue.)

My question is, I'm turning off my dishnet sat to save cash as I don't really watch that much Sat tv anymore. So I was thinking of putting a Squareshooter 1000 on the current dishnet mount on the house. Do you all think this will help the signal loss, or should I just stick with what I have?

Oh yea, I live in St. Louis, in the city, so I'm getting most everything I'm supposed to, except the above mentioned PBS feed and UPN. Actually getting the PBS all the time would help with the channel guide :-)

Cheers

Agree that the Bowtie 8 bay is much better in gain from about 14 - 40. I tried the cm 4228 8 bay and the winegard 9032 yagi here in tyler tx for ch 18 and 22. The bowtie gets about 3 to 4 more bars on the SIR-T151. Also, the winegard 8780 preamp was a lot better than the cm 7777. Has anyone tried the winegard 8880? I am in a deep fringe area and need all the gain I can get.

Maybe this is redundant, even downright dumb, but how about an aesthetically pleasing good antenna? I just redid my home, got a HDTV w the direct TV hr10-250 tivo rec.....I need an OTA for the superbowl but dont want to put a monster 1950s antenna on my rooftop....Help :)?

the squareshooter is pretty aesthetically pleasing :-)

Originally posted by olyeller
Also, the winegard 8780 preamp was a lot better than the cm 7777. Has anyone tried the winegard 8880? I am in a deep fringe area and need all the gain I can get.

If you're using the SIRT-151 for estimating potential, you have a small problem. The 151's meter uses a matrixed signal strength/signal quality meter, and increasing noise will cause the signal meter to go up, even if signal quality declines. I used an indoor 40db amplifier with it on local stations and even though the meter read much higher (almost all the way to the top of the scale) the picture would breakup incessently. Taking out the amplifier reduced the meter's reading back to about the middle of the scale, but the picture was more reliable. The 8780 has more noise than the 7777, so unless you saw a definite improvement in picture stability, I'd suspect that they're about the same.

Amplification isn't magic. Once you've overcome line loss and the resistance factor of the receiver's input, any more amplification isn't going to help you. It would be better for you to invest in more or better antennas (stacking, for instance) instead of amplifiers.

Originally posted by MAX HD
All coax connections must be of the waterproof variety.Check all connections for moisture intrusion.Any moisture at all will kill UHF,especially the higher frequencies.

Many thanks everyone for your advise on this. It certainly sounds like my problem with signal loss during the rain is moisture pentetration to the coax when it's rainy. I've redone all the coax connections and protected them this time with rubber coax booties. Hopefully that will do the trick.

I'll report back if it looks successful.

:-)

I'm finally setting up my HDTV system at home to receive the OTA signal out of Madison, WI and have run into an odd problem. First of all, I'm using a Hughes E86 receiver, a Toshiba TN55x81 TV, a Channel Master 3010 StealthTenna and am located in DeForest - about 15 miles from the tower. After a channel scan, all the digital channels are listed with a signal strength of 80 to 100. I have the antenna mounted outside directly above the D* dish on the roof so the strong signal strength wasn't surprising. The problem is cycling through all the channels - I simply get the picture for a fraction of a second then it's gone. The audio comes through continuously just fine but the video refuses to display for longer than a second. When it does its initial brief flash on the screen it is usually scrolling. With the strong signal strength I would think the stb could lock on with no problem. I have a clear shot from the rooftop as there are no tall structures, trees, houses, etc. I've switched component cables, tried both connections on the TV, even a different antenna and always get the same results. The analog signal comes through just fine for all the channels.

Next, I tried an attenuator to see if that made a difference - no difference at all.

The cable run I'm using is about 60' long. It originally was one of the cables going to the D* dish but wasn't being used inside the house. I simply disconnected it from the LNB and connected it to the antenna. After a brief stop at a grounding block, the line continues directly to the E-86....I've also tried using the satellite-in on the E86 instead of the antenna-in since the setup allows you to specify antenna vs satellie for each connection. I still get the same result.

Obviously, this is getting very frustrating. Anyone have an idea where I should begin?

Thanks in advance!!

Originally posted by Sargon11
The audio comes through continuously just fine but the video refuses to display for longer than a second.
Obviously, this is getting very frustrating. Anyone have an idea where I should begin?

Thanks in advance!!

Digital reception is all or none. If you're still getting audio somehow but no video it's likely a problem with your set, connections, or STB.

Originally posted by black_macleod
Greets!

Currently I'm using a Silver Sensor antennae with my LG-4200a OTA receiver. My reception is really good, except for two things. First, I only get PBS occasionally, which isnt a huge deal. Second, I live near a train track, and whenever trains go by I lose signal on some channels (I'm assuming this is a multi-path issue.)

My question is, I'm turning off my dishnet sat to save cash as I don't really watch that much Sat tv anymore. So I was thinking of putting a Squareshooter 1000 on the current dishnet mount on the house. Do you all think this will help the signal loss, or should I just stick with what I have?

Oh yea, I live in St. Louis, in the city, so I'm getting most everything I'm supposed to, except the above mentioned PBS feed and UPN. Actually getting the PBS all the time would help with the channel guide :-)

Cheers

Your problem with PBS and UPN is direction, not distance especially if your in South City. My father in law is in South County has to use 2 Winegard 4400 for ksdk, kmov, ktvi, kndl, and pbs AND still does not get UPN. I've not heard great things about the square shooter. You may want to deal with someone that has a good return policy in case you get crappy results from any antenna you purchase. This forum has some advertisers you could check out.

I'm new to the forum, and would like to ask a few questions. I've gone through a number of the posts for this thread, but I still have questions. Let me apologize in advance for any stupid or redundant questions that have already been answered.

I plan to buy a new Sony XBR HDTV. I live in Rochester NY (zip 14580) and have lat/long coordinates of 43.200605/-077.416820.

I don't plan to have cable TV, satellite TV or dish network of any kind. (Yes, I know, this is rather odd these days, but the family would be glued to the TV 24/7 if we had all those channels and we'd never have a life).

We have the 3 major networks (NBC, CBS, ABC) plus PBS and FOX. It looks like the antennas for all 5 stations are clustered in the same location about 10 miles away.

I'm looking for a good indoor antenna for HDTV signals, but I'm also curious about non-HDTV signals. Do I need 2 different antennas? Can I get away with a smaller indoor antenna given my distance to the towers?

Any comments, feedback or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Tim

Wow, I feel stupid right now. I'm deep in the fringe area of the Los Angeles broadcast region, and I've been fussing around with an attic mount for quite some time now, first with a silver sensor, and now with a CM 3020 (YOU try unfolding and assembling 10 feet of antenna around and between your attic rafters!) and just realized my house is stucco. The whole house is wrapped in metal mesh. (bangs head against wall). Anyway, looks like I need to get this thing up on the roof and stockpile ammunition to keep the HOA at bay. I'll be sure to print out a few copies of FCC rule 47 C.F.R. Section 1.4000 before I get started.

I'm looking for suggestions...I'm 50 miles from the KC towers, so tonight I decided on a whim to just go buy a Zenith Silver Sensor and try it out...

Well, I hooked it up, and got marginal results inside the house, so I hooked it up to a 75 ft. coax and took it outside, and I'm able to get at least some signal on all the stations out of KC except KMBC-DT which appears to be VHF only...the other channels would lock in, but sporadically, so this tells me I'm onto something. My concern is that I don't think this antenna is supposed to be outdoors at all, and that it won't lock in all that well, not to mention we watch KMBC the most.

Can someone suggest a VERY good Directional VHF/UHF antenna for me? 50 miles away in trees and hills shooting through another tower of a station a mile from my house...

Any help is appreciated, and I've submitted a query to an online dealer. I'm probably looking for a roof mount.

I've had my HDTV for about a month and have been trying to use an old rabbit-ears indoor antenna on the 1st floor to get OTA HDTV. Luckily I am 2 miles from the cluster of antennas that serve the whole Philly area. Most channels work well. FOX, however, does not. I can get 95% signal strength, but I get a lot of periodic dropped out frames. The signal strength will be locked at 95%, then unlock and drop down to 40% for a sec, then bump back up to 95%. It varies how often frames drop out, but it was bad enough on Sunday that I switched the Eagles game to the SD signal from cable. Does anyone have any diagnosis on what could be wrong or recommendations? Thanks.

Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION
I'm looking for suggestions...I'm 50 miles from the KC towers, so tonight I decided on a whim to just go buy a Zenith Silver Sensor and try it out...

Well, I hooked it up, and got marginal results inside the house, so I hooked it up to a 75 ft. coax and took it outside, and I'm able to get at least some signal on all the stations out of KC except KMBC-DT which appears to be VHF only...the other channels would lock in, but sporadically, so this tells me I'm onto something. My concern is that I don't think this antenna is supposed to be outdoors at all, and that it won't lock in all that well, not to mention we watch KMBC the most.

Can someone suggest a VERY good Directional VHF/UHF antenna for me? 50 miles away in trees and hills shooting through another tower of a station a mile from my house...

Any help is appreciated, and I've submitted a query to an online dealer. I'm probably looking for a roof mount.

You probably need to go with separate uhf and vhf antennae. The CM 4228 is a good option for uhf if your installation is sturdy and you don't plan on a rotor. Alternatively, the Antennasdirect XG91.

For VHF, consider the Antennacraft Y10 7-13, Delhi cut channel 7 (http://www.starkelectronic.com/delhi.htm), or even a home-made folded dipole see http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html and http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

You'll either need a preamp like the CM 7777 which combines uhf and vhf for you or you'll need a diplexer like the CM 0549 available at Starkelectronics.com. I'd worry a little about overload from the station a mile from you so maybe try without the amp first and keep the cable as short as possible and at least RG6. If it's a low power local don't worry about it and get the CM 7777.

I'd probably go with a wall mount or ground mount if you can. They are technically easier to do and at least in the ground mount's case much stronger.

Originally posted by tirwin
I'm new to the forum, and would like to ask a few questions. I've gone through a number of the posts for this thread, but I still have questions. Let me apologize in advance for any stupid or redundant questions that have already been answered.

I plan to buy a new Sony XBR HDTV. I live in Rochester NY (zip 14580) and have lat/long coordinates of 43.200605/-077.416820.

I don't plan to have cable TV, satellite TV or dish network of any kind. (Yes, I know, this is rather odd these days, but the family would be glued to the TV 24/7 if we had all those channels and we'd never have a life).

We have the 3 major networks (NBC, CBS, ABC) plus PBS and FOX. It looks like the antennas for all 5 stations are clustered in the same location about 10 miles away.

I'm looking for a good indoor antenna for HDTV signals, but I'm also curious about non-HDTV signals. Do I need 2 different antennas? Can I get away with a smaller indoor antenna given my distance to the towers?

Any comments, feedback or recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Tim

Hi and welcome to the forum. No there is nothing special about an hd antenna. It will pick up analog as well as HD signals. You are only 8.5 miles from all the Rochester digital stations and there all UHF. Some of the analogs are VHF 10 and 13. Since you are so close a UHF will more then likely also get them. You have a bunch of channels from Buffalo and like if you really wanted to go for it but sounds like you're not after them. The Zenith silver sensor is a good indoor antenna and will probably work in your case. The only problem you may have is multipath and you really won't know until you try. If your using and indoor antenna now and don't get much ghosting your probably OK. Whatever your presently using will also work for HD so give it a try before buying anything new. If your signal comes up and down (drops out) on digitals then you have multipath and will need a more directional antenna. Good luck.

Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION
I'm looking for suggestions...I'm 50 miles from the KC towers, so tonight I decided on a whim to just go buy a Zenith Silver Sensor and try it out...

Well, I hooked it up, and got marginal results inside the house, so I hooked it up to a 75 ft. coax and took it outside, and I'm able to get at least some signal on all the stations out of KC except KMBC-DT which appears to be VHF only...the other channels would lock in, but sporadically, so this tells me I'm onto something. My concern is that I don't think this antenna is supposed to be outdoors at all, and that it won't lock in all that well, not to mention we watch KMBC the most.

Can someone suggest a VERY good Directional VHF/UHF antenna for me? 50 miles away in trees and hills shooting through another tower of a station a mile from my house...

Any help is appreciated, and I've submitted a query to an online dealer. I'm probably looking for a roof mount.

Your digital stations are UHF except for your favorite which is digital 7 KMBC. First check to see if you are in there coverage area here.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?n=DT600939.html

If you are then the silver sensor will not work for it is a UHF indoor. The very best antenna for 50 miles is the 43 XG or 91xg from antennas direct with along with the Channel Master 4228. The Channel Master is big and heavy has a lot of wind load. The antennas direct is small light with little wind load. These are both UHF only so you'll need a small hi band antenna to get KMBC. If you rather go with a combo antenna VHF/UHF then you need to go fairly big. Winegard HD7084p is about the smallest and lightest that will do the job. The HD8200 would be best if you can get it locally but it cost a fortune to ship. Channel Master also has a few good ones the 3679 or 3678. You may need an amp the CM 7777 is the best low noise amp which also has a combiner to combine the UHF and VHF into one downlead.
If I was going to do it? I do it right and get the 91xg and a 10 element hi band antenna. I'd wait to see if you need the booster but if your run is going to be 75 feet or more go ahead and get one. Some links below to look at.
http://www.solidsignal.com/search_results.asp?main_cat=0&search_crit=antennas&page=2

http://www.antennasdirect.com/LongRangeAntennas.htm

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm

The 10 element hi band 7 thru 13 is only $31 plus shipping.

Originally posted by thriftyrocker
I've had my HDTV for about a month and have been trying to use an old rabbit-ears indoor antenna on the 1st floor to get OTA HDTV. Luckily I am 2 miles from the cluster of antennas that serve the whole Philly area. Most channels work well. FOX, however, does not. I can get 95% signal strength, but I get a lot of periodic dropped out frames. The signal strength will be locked at 95%, then unlock and drop down to 40% for a sec, then bump back up to 95%. It varies how often frames drop out, but it was bad enough on Sunday that I switched the Eagles game to the SD signal from cable. Does anyone have any diagnosis on what could be wrong or recommendations? Thanks.

You are getting multipath and will need a more directional antenna. Try the silver sensor from Zenith but be sure they let you return it if it doesn't work. If it fails then you need a larger convential antenna.

jim...

Thank you for the information. Can you tell me how you got that map of the coverage area? I've tried and tried to get one of those by making queries on that page but can't figure out how to get the coverage maps..

I'm basically where the black dot is in St. Joseph, MO.

Nevermind, I think I finally found how to get those maps..but I still have no idea how to get to that page without linking to it...


I might go by radio shack tonight and get some stuff just to experiment a bit...

Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION
Can you tell me how you got that map of the coverage area? I've tried and tried to get one of those by making queries on that page but can't figure out how to get the coverage maps..

Follow these steps:

1) Go to http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

2) Enter your call letters in the box labeled "Call Sign"

3) Select TV Query - detailed output from the box of Output choices.

4) Submit your query

5) Find the digital signal listing for the station in question. (If there's an STA - Special Temporary Authority, use that listing unless you know it's out of date and they're running full power.) At the bottom of the listing, there's a link called "Area: Service Contour Map (xxdBu)" Click that.

There's your map.

This is slightly off-topic but I think it may be of interest. Last week I extended my mast to 10 feet. Since then it has made a deep note in any significant wind. As it is supported by a guyed J mount on the roof above my bedroom, which seems to act as a sounding board, this is annoying to say the least. IIRC a 10 foot organ pipe resonates at approximately 100 Hz, which seems about right.

I realize that I need to plug the top of the mast to fix this, which means I have to take it down again but it would have been useful to have been aware of this beforehand.

Has anyone ever come across this phenomenon before?

Originally posted by Andrew_J_M
This is slightly off-topic but I think it may be of interest. Last week I extended my mast to 10 feet. Since then it has made a deep note in any significant wind. As it is supported by a guyed J mount on the roof above my bedroom, which seems to act as a sounding board, this is annoying to say the least. IIRC a 10 foot organ pipe resonates at approximately 100 Hz, which seems about right.

Has anyone ever come across this phenomenon before?

Yes. I had the exact same problem with a thin-metal mast that I purchased at a local hardware store. Thicker ones seem not to resonate so readily.

Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION
jim...

Thank you for the information. Can you tell me how you got that map of the coverage area? I've tried and tried to get one of those by making queries on that page but can't figure out how to get the coverage maps..

I'm basically where the black dot is in St. Joseph, MO.

Nevermind, I think I finally found how to get those maps..but I still have no idea how to get to that page without linking to it...


I might go by radio shack tonight and get some stuff just to experiment a bit...
Your welcome.

Serenger just gave you details how to get the maps. You should get Topeka and maybe Lincoln and Omahah stations. You are definetly in their coverage area.

Just FYI I have a 91XG about 17 feet in the air with no amp. I get 70+ miles of very reliable digitals. Some of the stations are still low powered. Mine has several mountains to go over where you are fairly flat. My signal from 70+ miles is reading in the mid 80's. Good Luck with your reception. You may want to take a look here to help you understand hooking up.
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf

Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION
jim...

Thank you for the information.

See my response to your question as well although it's not critically very different from Jim's.

Has anyone out there modified their CM4228's feedlines to try to improve high-channel reception (per the author's suggestion in hdtvprimer_com/ANTENNAS/cm4228) ?

I'd like to get a few more dB at UHF 56/57. The alternate solution would be to trim the bowties a little, but I'd prefer not to trade off low-channel gain.

I posted some questions about a low power broadcast of UHF channel 57 signal in my area last week and received some very good info. I am now looking at different antennas and again have some questions. I found a Winegard PR4400 that looks similar to the Channel Master 4228. The gains seem to be pretty good and the price is even better. Any input on this one? Thanks for all the help.

Originally posted by cpcat
See my response to your question as well although it's not critically very different from Jim's.

Sorry about that CP! I missed it at first...

Thanks for the information folks..I'll post back when I get some stuff figured out...

Jimc, thanks for your help. I'll try the silver sensor when I get the new TV, which hopefully will be very soon.

Tim

Well, the long range VHF/UHF from Radio Shack sucks..

Hi all,

First off - I want to say - thanks, I've searched through this thread - reading about half of the posts, and have learned a lot.

I live in the suburbs of Minneapolis, about 25 miles from the towers that transmit 9 of the 10 stations available to me that I'm interested in - and they are at either 59° or 60°. The tenth is 35 miles away at 347° . Most of them transmit at 600 to 1000 kW on UHF channels 16 (lowest power, 50kw) up to 50.

My analog VHF reception is so-so on my 19 year old Sony, but I notice that my son's newer little Toshiba - with an old VHF rooftop antenna of unknown origin gets both UHF and vhf just fine. Based on everything I've read here and using Anntennaweb.org's tool (it says I need a medium directional) I think I should be fine with a 4 bay bow tie like the CM 4221 which I will place on the roof in place of the old vhf antenna. The only structure that could give me trouble for multi-path nearby is a water tower that is several blocks away - in the null direction of a directional antenna aimed at 60° My only other concern is trees - especially after reading the information found in the hdtvprimer.com website. I cannot clear the trees, even from my roof. On the other hand, I'm at a higher elevation (1065 feet) than the towers (960 feet) so I probably have a clear line of sight. - especially in the winter time.

So here are my question(s) - I'm going to put up a CM 4221, unamplified, to start with. Am I better off adding a preamp right away? From what I've read that won't help me much unless I'm in fringe area. My cable run will be 30 feet or so. Is this enough antenna for me? I considered something bigger, but it seemed like an 8 bay bow might be overkill. I was also considering the Winegard 9032 or AD XG42 (am I the only one that thinks the Yagi's look cooler?), but it seemed like the 4221 has the most bang for the buck. And finally, are the trees going to be real signal killers in the summer time?

Thanks for sharing all of this know how with us neophytes.

Todd

After months of putting up with crappy signals based on the antennaeweb compass headings, I took the time to try each channel I'm supposed to get and see what actual headings work best. I have a channel master remote control rotor. I set the rotor display to 000 and pointed the antennae to North by a compass. I'm prol off a few degrees SO THESE NUMBERS MAY BE DIFFERENT THAN YOURS but my point is that the are drastically different than the compass headings that antennaeweb gave me. Here are my results.

Equipment
Tuner- MyHD120 HDTV tuner card
Antenna- Channel Master 3020 roof mounted on a single story home
Antenna amplifier- channel master Spartan 3 model 3041 w/ FM trap IN

Any suggestions on equipment would be appreciated since i can return any of it. It all came from Lowes.

Channels
WYDO FOX 21 - never been able to pick up any digital Fox station
WITN NBC 32- listed as 223 degrees but I get best signal at 233
WNCT CBS 10- listed as 223 degrees but i get best signal at 258
WUNK PBS 23- listed as 278 degrees but I get best signal at 225
WCTI ABC 48- listed as 200 degrees but I get best signal at 242

Once again, my antenna is probably off a few degrees but you get the idea. I'm located in Grimesland and my zip code is 27837 if that makes a difference.

Hello,

I recently joined the HD world and upgraded to HD on dish with a 811. I have no expeirenced any draw backs that I have read on here as of yet, knock on wood. My questions are as follows. I have the old original Terk TV42 antenna and am able to get my 2 out of 4 of my local broad cast HD channels. I live in Santa Maria CA, and my channels and distances are as follows: 12.1 = 14.4 miles which I get at a constant 93%, channel 33.1 = 32.4 miles I get at a constant 89%, channel 6.1 = 32.4 comes in a 49% then drops to 0% and some times out of the blue goes to about 52% and actually displays a picture, channel 3.1 = 38.8 miles is not even picked up. I have no obsticles or anything blocking direct line of sight to the sky or surrounding area. My question is what can I do to atleast pull in channel 6.1 in stronger since I am able to get it infrequently but can get it at least. I am not willing to resurect another antenna but would be willing to install any recommended in door antenna. I also noticed that Terk has a similiar antenna like my TV42 but it is amplified, anyone use this or try it? Second question, my local channel 12 news states it is broadcast in DTV on channel 19, antenna web shows that channel as channel 12.1. Some times I check my guide and OTA channel 12 shows up at 19-01 and some times it shows up as 12-01. When it shows up as 12-01 I get a guide display of what the name of the show is on and info about it, when it is 19-01 it does nothing. It doesn't do it with verying signal strength but random. Any clue to this or rhyme of reason? Oh yeah, channel 11 KKFX is broad case OTA as channel 12-02 but when my channels fluctuate to 19-01 KKFX changes to 19-02. I don't notice picture quality change or anything just number listing changes. Thanks for your help.

jvcjbl
Sorry not much hope without an antenna improvement. You have multipath and need a good directional antenna. Save your money, for an amp will not amplify what the antenna cannot receive. I have an 811 also with many montains in the way. I use Antennas Direct 91XG, no amp and get reliable steady digital signals in the mid 80's 70 miles from transmitter. You wouldn't need a 91XG probably a smaller 43xg or CM 4221.

As for the PSIP remapping. Channel 12.01 is changing to 19.01 because it actually is being transmitted UHF 19. The 811 remaps it back to 12.1 which is what all analog viewers and most people are use to watching channel 12. I noticed on the 811 if the signal fluctates widely it will sometimes get confused and for some reason will not remap back to 12.1 . This is why you get 19.1. This month all stations have a deadline I believe it's Feb 1 to get their PSIP working correctly. Some stations are having trouble and this may also be another reason for the remapping problem. Once the signal level gets up to par this problem will go away. The 811 needs a signal level in the mid 60's for reliable reception with no drop outs.

toddr007

Hi and welcome to the forum. At 25 to 35 miles the trees may not be an issue unless they completely block the the whole NE sky or are very close to the antenna. The signal will scatter around the trees.

The 4221 should be sufficient antenna and is a good price. I'd go with no amp unless you have 50 feet or more of coax run or plan on splitting signal to other sets. That's at least $50 you may not need to spend. You can always add one later if you choose. The AD or Winegard antennas you mention are also both very good antennas. (IMO) I like the AD antennas for their lifetime warranty and if they don't work you can get a refund. They are a lot more expensive but built a little more durable. Yagis have much less wind load (if that may be a problem in your area) and do a better job from about channel 30 up with not much of a signaficant difference. Below that the screen antennas do better especially at very low end 14 to 20.
You can check out gains of the 9032 and 4221 here.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Look at net gain not raw gain. Good Luck in you reception. Looks like you have it under control. You may also find this link from Cahnnel Master helpful.

http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf

Originally posted by rldud
I found a Winegard PR4400 that looks similar to the Channel Master 4228. The gains seem to be pretty good and the price is even better. Any input on this one? Thanks for all the help.

I think you mean the PR8800, as the 4400 is more like the CM 3021. Based on computer modeling, the PR8800 is slightly better below channel 20, and then the 4228 begins to be better. Still, the difference is slight and unless you're on the very edge of receivability, either should work just fine. The Winegards are made of aluminum and are therefore lighter (but still just as sturdy.) However, they have similar wind loads so if you're planning on using a rotor, you'll want to get a bearing support.

In general, I've been more impressed with the build quality of Winegard compared to Channel Master, but I have no experience with any of the bowties due to wind issues.

Originally posted by toddr007
...I think I should be fine with a 4 bay bow tie like the CM 4221 which I will place on the roof in place of the old vhf antenna. ...My only other concern is trees - especially after reading the information found in the hdtvprimer.com website.

...Am I better off adding a preamp right away?

I think the 4221 is a great choice. Ness Electronics sells direct to consumers at their stores, and they charge wholesale prices. Last I checked, it was under $25.

The trees are unlikely to cause you major problems at that distance, unless you're shooting through a lot of them. Even then, it would only crop up on windy days.

Skip the preamp. Whatever problems the trees cause will be made worse by a preamplifier, and at your distance, you'll be getting plenty of signal from a 4221.

Ok...Solid Signal is recommending this model...

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=3&CAT=&PROD=ANC3679

And last night I went and picked up this model at Radio Shack just to experiment...

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-2154


Now, all I did was set this thing up on a tripod in my driveway like I did with the Silver Sensor the night before, and I was able to pick up KMBC (Digital Channel is 7) very easily, but didn't pull in squat in terms of UHF channels...

Now, I was discouraged because I figured that if the teeny little silver sensor could pull in all of them, then this thing should have no trouble..but I got nuthin'...

Not sure what to think now...but it did appear as though I was very close to getting a signal..so I'm thinking of trying a temporary mount on the roof...I don't want to drill until I'm certain I can get at least ABC, CBS, and the NBC feed (Fox isn't at full power yet)...

I used the RS UHF 75 mile antenna in my attic for a number of months and digital reception was kind of marginal. Then I went to the CM 4228 and, voila, reception immediately became nothing short of phenomenal. I had to do some cutting of trim around the attic opening to get the 4228 up there, but it was well worth it.

What is different about the Channel Master's? are they made differently, out of different materials, etc?

I currently have an 8 bay with amplifier and can get NBC, FOX, ABC, all with above 90% signal. I can not get CBS unless I move the antenna and miss all the other main networks. I would like to have one antenna dedicated to CBS and some way link it to my other antenna? CBS is on 59.1 and is the highest channel # that I am having problems with. All the channels are about 4 miles from me. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Jimmy

I currently have an 8 bay with amplifier and can get NBC, FOX, ABC, all with above 90% signal. I can not get CBS unless I move the antenna and miss all the other main networks. I would like to have one antenna dedicated to CBS and some way link it to my other antenna? CBS is on 59.1 and is the highest channel # that I am having problems with. All the channels are about 4 miles from me. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Jimmy

Originally posted by TAKECOVER
I currently have an 8 bay with amplifier and can get NBC, FOX, ABC, all with above 90% signal. I can not get CBS unless I move the antenna and miss all the other main networks. I would like to have one antenna dedicated to CBS and some way link it to my other antenna? CBS is on 59.1 and is the highest channel # that I am having problems with. All the channels are about 4 miles from me. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


You're looking for the Channel Master "Jointenna". Get the one for the right frequency (absolute channel number, not "virtual") and you should be good to go.

And pull off that amplifier. It's doing nothing good for you at 4 miles. Maybe that's all you need to do to improve your reception.

Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION
What is different about the Channel Master's? are they made differently, out of different materials, etc?

There's nothing magic about them. They have a better design. They're made of more durable stuff. But don't be confused, the 4228 is not the equivalent of the 75-mile rated Radio Shack model.

Solid Signal was right to tell you you need a big UHF antenna. And since you need VHF, they're right about the Crossfire.

As a general rule, take any Radio Shack mileage estimate and divide it by 2. Now that's a reasonable maximum for that antenna. So if it says it's good for 60 miles, it's really only good for 30 miles (max.) The Channel Master 3679 is a good antenna. Not perfect, but very good. I'd try the 3978 myself, but the ..79 might be good enough.

Originally posted by sregener
You're looking for the Channel Master "Jointenna". Get the one for the right frequency (absolute channel number, not "virtual") and you should be good to go.

And pull off that amplifier. It's doing nothing good for you at 4 miles. Maybe that's all you need to do to improve your reception.

Can I hook this Channel Master inline with my 8 bay antenna? I do have to use the amp though. It appears that I am right under the tower and get very little signal. It "overshoots" me as I was told by a tech :(

Where is a good source for the Channel Master if I can use them inline?

Thanks,
Jimmy

Do get rid of the amp. Instead, tilt the antenna upward to the source if needed. Aim includes inclination as well as azimuth for those close in at different elevations.

Originally posted by watchdoc
After months of putting up with crappy signals based on the antennaeweb compass headings, I took the time to try each channel I'm supposed to get and see what actual headings work best. I have a channel master remote control rotor. I set the rotor display to 000 and pointed the antennae to North by a compass. I'm prol off a few degrees SO THESE NUMBERS MAY BE DIFFERENT THAN YOURS but my point is that the are drastically different than the compass headings that antennaeweb gave me. Here are my results.

Equipment
Tuner- MyHD120 HDTV tuner card
Antenna- Channel Master 3020 roof mounted on a single story home
Antenna amplifier- channel master Spartan 3 model 3041 w/ FM trap IN

Any suggestions on equipment would be appreciated since i can return any of it. It all came from Lowes.

Channels
WYDO FOX 21 - never been able to pick up any digital Fox station
WITN NBC 32- listed as 223 degrees but I get best signal at 233
WNCT CBS 10- listed as 223 degrees but i get best signal at 258
WUNK PBS 23- listed as 278 degrees but I get best signal at 225
WCTI ABC 48- listed as 200 degrees but I get best signal at 242

Once again, my antenna is probably off a few degrees but you get the idea. I'm located in Grimesland and my zip code is 27837 if that makes a difference.

Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp punch in your exact coordinates and the appropriate magnetic variation for your area and see what you get. I think it's more accurate there.

That's a good amplifier. The only thing is it has only a single input and won't diplex separate vhf/uhf antennae for you. If you can take it back I would and get the CM 7777 which has separate *and* combined inputs.
It's available at multiple online sources : solidsignal.com, starkelectronics.com, warrenelectronics.com, and others.

You might consider the Antennasdirect XG91 as a better uhf antenna. The CM 4228 would be good too but it'll be hard on your rotor. The XG91 might just get you vhf 10 anyway (try it through the back i.e. 180 degrees off axis). If not, it's pretty easy to add a separate high band vhf antenna like an Antennacraft Y10 7-13 for about 35 bucks.

I am using a silver sensor and can only get my local cbs at 25-30%(it is 45 miles away operating at 21.6kw in El Paso Texas) and my family will not let me put up an outdoor antenna. Do you guys have any tricks that can help me get a better signal perhaps for tin foil would help? I already am using a 12db amplifier a rg6 25ft coax cable and a philips 5 ft coax gold. Thanks in advance! Oh and my tv seems to be picking up signals at 40%

I am looking to get a Winegard Squareshooter.
What else will I need? Do they come with some sort of mount? I assume they do.
Is there special weatherproof cabling or connectors that I will need for outside?
I am also planning on getting some flat coax to bring it in to the house.
Any advice you guys can offer is appreciated.

You guys talked me into trying something outside, since the indoor options are not working. The squareshooter seems to work pretty well and it isn't bad looking. It should work with all my towers in one direction at 15 miles.

Originally posted by sf49ersnfl
I am using a silver sensor and can only get my local cbs at 25-30%(it is 45 miles away operating at 21.6kw in El Paso Texas) and my family will not let me put up an outdoor antenna. Do you guys have any tricks that can help me get a better signal perhaps for tin foil would help? I already am using a 12db amplifier a rg6 25ft coax cable and a philips 5 ft coax gold. Thanks in advance! Oh and my tv seems to be picking up signals at 40%

If you can't go outside the next best is a big antenna in your attic aimed correctly at the towers. The 4228 seems to do well in attics and is primarily uhf but also does fairly well with vhf 9-13.

There aren't many other tricks with the silver sensor other than moving it around in the room and changing location that would help in your situtation. There's only so much a small antenna can do.

Originally posted by watchdoc
After months of putting up with crappy signals based on the antennaeweb compass headings, I took the time to try each channel I'm supposed to get and see what actual headings work best. I have a channel master remote control rotor. I set the rotor display to 000 and pointed the antennae to North by a compass. I'm prol off a few degrees SO THESE NUMBERS MAY BE DIFFERENT THAN YOURS but my point is that the are drastically different than the compass headings that antennaeweb gave me. Here are my results.

Equipment
Tuner- MyHD120 HDTV tuner card
Antenna- Channel Master 3020 roof mounted on a single story home
Antenna amplifier- channel master Spartan 3 model 3041 w/ FM trap IN

Any suggestions on equipment would be appreciated since i can return any of it. It all came from Lowes.

Channels
WYDO FOX 21 - never been able to pick up any digital Fox station
WITN NBC 32- listed as 223 degrees but I get best signal at 233
WNCT CBS 10- listed as 223 degrees but i get best signal at 258
WUNK PBS 23- listed as 278 degrees but I get best signal at 225
WCTI ABC 48- listed as 200 degrees but I get best signal at 242

Once again, my antenna is probably off a few degrees but you get the idea. I'm located in Grimesland and my zip code is 27837 if that makes a difference.

A point to make about using a rotor is that you should always approach a setting from the same direction such as clockwise. For instance, if you have three stations, ABC at 200, NBC at 223 and PBS at 278 as above, then you can go directly from ABC to either of the other channels, but to go to ABC you should go to a dummy station at maybe 180 then back to 200. Otherwise you can have errors due to slack in the gearing.

Also my compass varies depending on where in the house I am. On the map my ridge goes from 110 to 290 magnetic. If I am in the garden my compass agress with this, in the kitchen it is more like 90 to 270, in the master bedroom it is 120 to 300. I think that even having the car in the garage or in the drive makes a difference.

Hi everyone. Here are my stations
CBS 12° 9.3miles freq-25
NBC 19° 7.2 48
FOX 17° 9.4 43
WB 17° 9.4 42

ABC 123° 13.2 51

Currently, I have a setup with two antennas. A big antenna in the attic (approx 30 ft cable run) getting CBS, NBC, Fox, and WB and a little bowtie in the living room (approx 6 ft cable run) getting ABC. In the past, I have been changing the cable in my receiver to get the desired station. I would like to combine these two lines.

I tried using a two way splitter. ABC still comes in. Fox is in and out (went from 80's to 50's) while NBC, CBS and WB don't come in (all ranging from 0-25 mostly). Obviously I am getting a signal loss. What are my options? Is a Jointenna my best bet and would I still get considerable signal loss from the attic? Would a preamp help on the cable from the attic? Thanks

Correction: the freq for ABC is 51 not 4.

The simplest way to switch from one to the other is to get a remote controlled A/B switch from Radio shack ~$39.

Originally posted by lsdean
Hi everyone. Here are my stations
CBS 12° 9.3miles freq-25
NBC 19° 7.2 48
FOX 17° 9.4 43
WB 17° 9.4 42

ABC 123° 13.2 4

Currently, I have a setup with two antennas. A big antenna in the attic (approx 30 ft cable run) getting CBS, NBC, Fox, and WB and a little bowtie in the living room (approx 6 ft cable run) getting ABC. In the past, I have been changing the cable in my receiver to get the desired station. I would like to combine these two lines.

I tried using a two way splitter. ABC still comes in. Fox is in and out (went from 80's to 50's) while NBC, CBS and WB don't come in (all ranging from 0-25 mostly). Obviously I am getting a signal loss. What are my options? Is a Jointenna my best bet and would I still get considerable signal loss from the attic? Would a preamp help on the cable from the attic? Thanks

Since all your channels are UHF except ABC then you can get away with a UHF/VHF seperator about $3. They will do the job. Anytime you put something in the main feed line you lose some signal. The loss will be very minimal with the seperator above about 1db. As you have found out a 2 way splitter will not work. If you don't won't your bow tie in the living room then you can move it up to the attic also and run both on one line. Since your ABC is VHF you may want to make a folded dipole from twin lead and mount in the attic. The bow tie is a UHF not a VHF antenna the dipole should do a better job cut to proper length for channel 4. See this link how to do so.
http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

I have Comcast in Chicago and I have been experiencing distortion in my low band frequencies. The many, many, many Comcast techs that have been to my house have stated that my signal is to high. The signals are as follows:


High 14.3
Low 21.2

Optimum is supposedly

High 11.3 - 12.5
Low 14.4 - 16.8

Is this accurate? How can I get Comcast to properly regulate this. They are now telling me that the signal I have is good enough and that they will not do anything. They sent a line tech and he said the signal was fine, 20 Db at the pole.

1) What is the difference between the pole strength and the low and high band strength?
2) What do I need to tell Comcast to do to fix the situation they might know but are refusing to tell me so that they do not create a monster, in that every other customer could request signal modifications.
3) What equipment can I buy that will fix the problem?
4) Are there amplifiers that can only boost the high bands and not the low? I ask this because if I use an attenuator it might bring the high bands down too much.

Thank you for any direction.

I want to use two UHF antennas, pointed in the same direction and plane, to obtain better signal for local HDTV reception. To combine these, can I just use a 2-way cable splitter (in reverese), or is there a different type of 'combiner' device that will allow me to use two UHF antennas for increased gain?

Here is one for the physics majors, or mechanical engineers.
I intend mounting my antenna on my framed-in chimney (it has vinyl siding) using 4" wall mounts. I have a choice of using either a single 5' mast or two coupled together making 9' 6''. The chimney is about 7'above the roof.

The antenna is a Winguard HD9065P, which is a rear mounted UHF Yagi about 4' long. It weghs about 4 pounds.

1) To use the coupled mast, with the bottom resting in a roof mount which would presumably take some weight together with the wall mounts spread about 4' apart.

2) Use a single 5' section with the wall mounts 3' apart?

3) Mount the antenna between the wall mounts on the single 5' section as heigh as it will go. This would be lower but I don't think height is a problem.

Which is the strongest option?

Originally posted by Rmassey
I want to use two UHF antennas, pointed in the same direction and plane, to obtain better signal for local HDTV reception. To combine these, can I just use a 2-way cable splitter (in reverese), or is there a different type of 'combiner' device that will allow me to use two UHF antennas for increased gain?

There are specifically designed combiners for this but the improvement over a quality splitter in reverse is small and you have to decide if it's worth it to you to get the more expensive combiner. Lindsay electronics makes a good one as does Triax.

Use identical antennas and identical lengths of coax up to the combiner/splitter. If you are using 300/75 baluns be sure they are phased properly (hook them up, check the performance, then switch the polarity on one and check again: the best performance is properly phased).

Originally posted by Andrew_J_M
Here is one for the physics majors, or mechanical engineers.
I intend mounting my antenna on my framed-in chimney (it has vinyl siding) using 4" wall mounts. I have a choice of using either a single 5' mast or two coupled together making 9' 6''. The chimney is about 7'above the roof.

The antenna is a Winguard HD9065P, which is a rear mounted UHF Yagi about 4' long. It weghs about 4 pounds.

1) To use the coupled mast, with the bottom resting in a roof mount which would presumably take some weight together with the wall mounts spread about 4' apart.

2) Use a single 5' section with the wall mounts 3' apart?

3) Mount the antenna between the wall mounts on the single 5' section as heigh as it will go. This would be lower but I don't think height is a problem.

Which is the strongest option?

Number one is definitely strongest. I'd span the joint between the mast sections with a u-bolt to make it one rigid span as well. Obviously you will need to mount to studs under the vinyl, which might be tricky depending on the stud spacing.

Originally posted by cpcat
There are specifically designed combiners for this but the improvement over a quality splitter in reverse is small and you have to decide if it's worth it to you to get the more expensive combiner. Lindsay electronics makes a good one as does Triax.

Use identical antennas and identical lengths of coax up to the combiner/splitter. If you are using 300/75 baluns be sure they are phased properly (hook them up, check the performance, then switch the polarity on one and check again: the best performance is properly phased).

Thanks cpcat, I'll look into the Lindsay and Triax. I am using identical antennas and do have the same length Coax going to a splitter. My signal strength is the same as using only one antenna.

Rat shack sells a VHF/UHF combiner, would this be suitable or do I strictly need a UHF/UHF combiner? RS is easy, if I see no improvment, I can just return it.

Originally posted by Rmassey
Thanks cpcat, I'll look into the Lindsay and Triax. I am using identical antennas and do have the same length Coax going to a splitter. My signal strength is the same as using only one antenna.

Rat shack sells a VHF/UHF combiner, would this be suitable or do I strictly need a UHF/UHF combiner? RS is easy, if I see no improvment, I can just return it.

The splitter/combiner should be wideband or at least covering the uhf range. The vhf/uhf "combiner" you refer to is actually a diplexer/separator and can't be used for this purpose. There's a good splitter/combiner available at Lowe's made by Zenith which I've used. It's 0-2GHz and I think it's about 5 dollars.

I wouldn't pay as much attention to absolute signal strength as I would to performance, i.e. stability of reception, etc. Much of the advantage at least with horizontal stacking is via the narrowed beamwidth and not necessarily from increased gain per se. Obviously, accurate aiming is a must with the narrowed beamwidth as well.

I think one of the problems we have at this point is that the airwaves are so crowded with analog/digitals and this as well as multipath rejection is the reason for higher performance with horizontal stacking. After the analog shutoff, it may be that vertical stacking will work better in the fringe.

How can I regulate signal strength?
I have Comcast in Chicago and I have been experiencing distortion in my low band frequencies. The many, many, many Comcast techs that have been to my house have stated that my signal is to high. The signals are as follows:


High 14.3
Low 21.2

Optimum is supposedly

High 11.3 - 12.5
Low 14.4 - 16.8

Is this accurate? How can I get Comcast to properly regulate this. They are now telling me that the signal I have is good enough and that they will not do anything. They sent a line tech and he said the signal was fine, 20 Db at the pole.

1) What is the difference between the pole strength and the low and high band strength?
2) What do I need to tell Comcast to do to fix the situation they might know but are refusing to tell me so that they do not create a monster, in that every other customer could request signal modifications.
3) What equipment can I buy that will fix the problem?
4) Are there amplifiers that can only boost the high bands and not the low? I ask this because if I use an attenuator it might bring the high bands down too much.

Thank you for any direction.

Originally posted by AdamE
Maybe this is redundant, even downright dumb, but how about an aesthetically pleasing good antenna? I just redid my home, got a HDTV w the direct TV hr10-250 tivo rec.....I need an OTA for the superbowl but dont want to put a monster 1950s antenna on my rooftop....Help :)?

I would check out antennas direct @ www.antennasdirect.com/ , I came across these guys through AVS and their antennas work! I picked up a DB2 and now have great reception... ( I mounted it on the chimney ) - they are small and not quite the eyesore like the old school antennas. (they are also very fairly priced!) I picked one up for my friend who lives on the second floor of a tall apartment building, and we were able to get all of his main channels with the db2 also.... (his view to the towers are completely blocked by a taller apartment building next to him). (he had tried 2 different antennas from Radio Shack without much luck...) Just my cents..... good luck !

Originally posted by jscuras
How can I regulate signal strength?
I have Comcast in Chicago and I have been experiencing distortion in my low band frequencies. This is the second time you've posted this in an antenna forum. It's a cableTV question not involving antennas. The Chicago-Comcast forum at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=5029198#post5029198 is the local forum on topic. Since it's not specific to Chicago though, you might have better luck in the hardware forum.

Need help before the big game.

I'm in Middletown, DE (19709). Kind of split between Baltimore and Philly. Currently I am in a rental Townhome and can't put anything up outside, so I'm stuck with an indoor mounting (until we move in July). Is there anything out there that can pull a signal in from 40+ miles indoors? I have a Silver sensor from the other house, but I get nothing with it.

I'm using a Fusion3 Gold T as my tuner if that helps.

Thanks!

Sorry if I miss-posted. I thought signal reception would be an appropriate topic for my problem. I must have mistakenly gone into the antenna topic.

Thank you for your guidance.

Originally posted by jskibo
Need help before the big game.

I'm in Middletown, DE (19709). Kind of split between Baltimore and Philly. Currently I am in a rental Townhome and can't put anything up outside, so I'm stuck with an indoor mounting (until we move in July). Is there anything out there that can pull a signal in from 40+ miles indoors? I have a Silver sensor from the other house, but I get nothing with it.

I'm using a Fusion3 Gold T as my tuner if that helps.

Thanks!

You are in a tough area. You are too far for an indoor antenna and since you can't mount outside makes your options very few. The best possible situtation is if you can get into the attic. If so you'll need a very good UHF antenna. Attic installs lose 50% of the antennas efficency. An Antennas Direct xg91 is small enough to fit and should do the job. You can also return it if it doesn't. You should get Philly and Wimington pointing in the one direction. If you want Baltimore and several others you'll need a rotor. The Channel Master 4228 will also do well but is much larger and may be harder to move around in the attic. When you move and may want to mount antenna outside the 4228 has a lot of wind load on a rotor. The 91XG will do much better at wind loads. Both are very good antennas and perform about equally.

If you cannot get in attic then the only MAYBE alternative is a Winegard Squareshooter. 40 + miles is a long way for it to pull but it may work. Be sure you can return it if doesn't. It must be outside for it to have a chance.

You are in Philly and Baltimores coverage areas but that's using a good outdoor antenna. The only sure solution is one of the antennas above mounted outdoors. Good Luck. Here's a few links.
http://www.antennasdirect.com/LongRangeAntennas.htm
http://www.solidsignal.com/antennas/
http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm

Thanks!

Would it be worth adding an amp to any of these to help it out?

Originally posted by jimc705
Attic installs lose 50% of the antennas efficency.
Try more like a 20db loss, or 99%.

Just a dumb question, but how much better performance would one expect when giving an antenna an extra 20 feet or so of Elevation?

Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION
Just a dumb question, but how much better performance would one expect when giving an antenna an extra 20 feet or so of Elevation?
That's one of those "how long is a piece of string" questions.

If you are already in line of sight with no multipath or obstacle probelms then you won't gain anything. If raising the antenna puts it in to line of sight (there's a formula based on the distance between to point on the globe and their heights above sea level that calculates that) then the improvement can be dramatic.

I've just found this site - http://www.vwlowen.demon.co.uk/java/horizon.htm

It calculates line of sight distance, but you need to know the two heights above sea level and it doesn't take into account terrain and so on between the transmitting and receiving antennas.

This would be from 50 miles away, so my hypothesis is that it should be WAY better...

Originally posted by dswallow
(Speaking of attic loss) Try more like a 20db loss, or 99%.

Well, that may be true in extreme cases. It is not, however, the norm. If you're going through normal roofing materials (plywood, asphalt shingles) the loss is about 3db, which is a 50% loss of signal strength. If you're going through stucco, though, or anything else that uses metal for support, the loss is probably closer to 99%.

Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION
Just a dumb question, but how much better performance would one expect when giving an antenna an extra 20 feet or so of Elevation?

It depends on a number of factors. Sometimes, your antenna may be in a "hot spot" and moving the antenna up may move it out of that hot spot and make things worse. Nobody knows for sure where hot spots are, or how to predict them, so caveat emptor.

And "20 feet" doesn't tell us much. There is a theoretical improvement based on doubling of antenna height, somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-30db. If your initial install is 20 feet tall, and you move it up 20 feet, you could see that kind of improvement. If you're going from 60 feet to 80 feet, though, your improvement would be much less. (It is worth noting that a doubling of antenna height makes your antenna better than the best UHF antenna at the old height could possibly be.)

If your problem is reflections from ground objects, moving the antenna higher is going to help, even if gain were to stay the same.

Generally speaking, once you clear local trees by more than 10', there are no more real improvements to be made until you have line-of-sight. As others have stated, if you have line-of-sight, no real improvement can be made.

Well, that may be true in extreme cases. It is not, however, the norm. If you're going through normal roofing materials (plywood, asphalt shingles) the loss is about 3db, which is a 50% loss of signal strength.
I think estimations of signal loss thru attic installs are often misleading & inaccurate. If I had not taken the estimates with a grain of salt and at my huge distances from the desired towers, I wouldn't even have tried an attic install. But I'm glad I was skeptical about signal loss estimates and so have had tremendous success.

I say give an attic install a shot and see what happens. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Originally posted by sregener
It depends on a number of factors. Sometimes, your antenna may be in a "hot spot" and moving the antenna up may move it out of that hot spot and make things worse. Nobody knows for sure where hot spots are, or how to predict them, so caveat emptor.

And "20 feet" doesn't tell us much. There is a theoretical improvement based on doubling of antenna height, somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-30db. If your initial install is 20 feet tall, and you move it up 20 feet, you could see that kind of improvement. If you're going from 60 feet to 80 feet, though, your improvement would be much less. (It is worth noting that a doubling of antenna height makes your antenna better than the best UHF antenna at the old height could possibly be.)

If your problem is reflections from ground objects, moving the antenna higher is going to help, even if gain were to stay the same.

Generally speaking, once you clear local trees by more than 10', there are no more real improvements to be made until you have line-of-sight. As others have stated, if you have line-of-sight, no real improvement can be made.

Basically, I'm trying to figure out how much I'm going to gain by going from about 5 feet off the ground to the top of the roof which would be more like 30 feet above ground level or so...

The reasoning is because I have no mounts up there right now...and I don't want to put any up unless I can be reasonably sure I'm going to get the results I want...

Now, if I can figure out a way of temporarily mounting it, that would be great...but I haven't figured that out yet...

Well fellow OTA officianatos, I'm back. I have replaced my OTA combo antenna with a UHF my grandfather had in his attic thanks to cable.

At everyone's suggestion, I invested in a CM 7777. The good news is, with the amp and new (relatively speaking) I know have a signal. However, the bad news is, it's not strong enough, only about 45% strength.

Two questions, one, I have a 150 foot run, I could potentially shorten this by 25 feet, how much difference do you think this will make with signal strength?

Second, the antenna is a radioshack UHF only antenna about 7 foot long with "wings" that open above and below the main "beam". If it is anything like the one radioshack advertises on their website, it shouldn't have any problem picking up a signal 39 miles away. As the website says what they are selling today $23.00 has up-to a 75 mile range.

With this antenna my "memorize channels" finds 4 channels all about 45% signal. I'm just skeptical about paying $100 for a 91XG and the signal not getting any better.

Gurus??????

Originally posted by gawngulfing
Well fellow OTA officianatos, I'm back. I have replaced my OTA combo antenna with a UHF my grandfather had in his attic thanks to cable.

At everyone's suggestion, I invested in a CM 7777. The good news is, with the amp and new (relatively speaking) I know have a signal. However, the bad news is, it's not strong enough, only about 45% strength.

Two questions, one, I have a 150 foot run, I could potentially shorten this by 25 feet, how much difference do you think this will make with signal strength?

Second, the antenna is a radioshack UHF only antenna about 7 foot long with "wings" that open above and below the main "beam". If it is anything like the one radioshack advertises on their website, it shouldn't have any problem picking up a signal 39 miles away. As the website says what they are selling today $23.00 has up-to a 75 mile range.

With this antenna my "memorize channels" finds 4 channels all about 45% signal. I'm just skeptical about paying $100 for a 91XG and the signal not getting any better.

Gurus??????

As a rule radio shack antennas don't perform well. I have heard to take the mileage they claim and divide by 2. I do not know how true that is. I do know I tried their best combo and got nothing in the way of digitals so I returned it. My closest digitals are 40 miles my fartherest over 70. I then bought a Channel Master 3020 and did get some but not all the ones I wanted so I returned it. I then tried the Winegard HD 7084 combo mainly because of a VHF digital we have here. Finally I got almost all the stations I wanted except 2. As a last ditch effort I sprung for the 91 XG and with it being small and light I tried several different spots and finally got everything I wanted and more. I know use the 91XG for the tuff digitals and the 7084 for VHF and the easy digitals. There's about a 5 to 10 point signal difference on my 811 receiver between the 7084 and the 91xg on the same station.

I can't say for sure it will work in your situtation but if it doesn't then your not going to get it. The beauty buying from Antennas Direct they will let you return it if it doesn't work. Reducing your lead in won't make much of a difference for the amp has more then enough gain to cover the line loss. Your other option being less expensive is to get a CM 4228. It's rather large and heavy but again if it doesn't get the signal it's just not there. Return on it will be up to the place where you buy it. Be sure they allow returns before spending the bucks. It cost about half the 91xg. Maybe you should check with some neighbors what they are using. It may be the station your trying to get is at low power. If you're in one of the top 100 markets they must go full digital power by July 1 05. You may want to wait it out. You can call or email the station and they'll tell you if they are at full power or not. You can also try moving the rat shack higher and lower. Higher is not always better. Try different spots on the roof UHF only takes a few inches to make a difference in some cases.

Good luck I hope you can get something.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=WI&call=&arn=&city=green+bay&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

Look at this link and click on the alternative map links to see if you are in Green Bay coverage area.

Wausau WHRM 90 KW low power
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?n=DT678925.html

high power 200 kw
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?n=DT1002781.html

WAOW lo power 29.9KW
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?n=DS606351.html

hi power 900 kw
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?n=DT418773.html

I take it the 91XG is the creme de la creme.....

If I can't get the combo that I bought to work this weekend, that will be my next step.

Originally posted by jimc705
As a last ditch effort I sprung for the 91 XG and with it being small and light I tried several different spots and finally got everything I wanted and more.

I keep hearing everyone say that the 91xg is fairly small....am I reading it correct that it's nearly 8 ft. long? Maybe that's small for someone who's used to a tower or something, but for someone living in an association that doesn't allow outdoor antennas it's huge! :) And yes, I've read the posts that legally they can't do that, etc....but it's just such a painful time consuming process to try and fight anything with these people.

Anyway....just wanted to confirm that I've reading the dimension on the 91xg right and that 8ft long = small.

XG91 is about 8' long. I don't have the info handy, but I think it's a few inches under that. 8' long seems pretty small to me for an antenna since you have to get into HF yagi size(for example, with elements ~ 30' long for 14MHZ) before I start thinking of an antenna as really being anything you could call "big", but I've certainly seem some large UHF antenna arrays ..

Originally posted by sregener
Well, that may be true in extreme cases. It is not, however, the norm. If you're going through normal roofing materials (plywood, asphalt shingles) the loss is about 3db, which is a 50% loss of signal strength. If you're going through stucco, though, or anything else that uses metal for support, the loss is probably closer to 99%.

It's true a loss of ~3db or so is 50%(1/2) of the signal that you WERE getting. If say, you are getting 80dbu actual signal strength, 77dbu would be be about 1/2 of that, and then 1/2 of that(3db more loss) would be approx 74dbu/etc/etc. But, each 3db increment isn't really "a lot" in this case. If however, you are dealing with a weak signal, just a few db above the threshold of good DTV reception, 3db might be perceived as "a lot". "Theoretically" you should be able to get enough signal for good DTV reception(on UHF) until you get all the way down to about 41dbu actual signal strength. 41dbu is the coverage area "contour" for UHF DTV stations FCC has defined as roughly equivelent to the 64dbu UHF Grade B signal contour for analog stations. This is because DTV works with less signal for various reasons. Given a "clean" channel, 41dbu signal strength should equate to about 16db of S/N on UHF. I would expect however, a bit more than 41dbu(or 16db S/N) is required in most cases.

But, if you are not thinking about it on the "logarithmic" scale "decibel/db" uses, and are trying to apply a % figure to the "total" signal strength -- like splitting up a pie into just 2 pieces without the ability to split each piece of pie into smaller pieces(I know, but just say you can't) --- then 3db is not a "de facto" 50%(1/2) signal loss. For instance, The signal at the antenna could easily be say, 110dbu or more within a "city grade" contour of the station, 3db loss( or say ~3.5db or so insertion loss from a 2 way splitter) is obviously not going to cut the "total" signal strength in half.( by 50% ....) Thinking of it this way, If 3db were 50%(1/2) loss, than 6db would be 100% loss. But again, the "db scale" is logarithmic, using a % value is not.

Look at it this way .. If a station increases power by 2x, say from 10 KW to 20KW ERP(or from say 512KW ERP to 1 MW ERP) -- yes, it would be about the same as "getting rid" of a 2 way splitter. Each increase of power x2 gives you about 2.5db more signal. .. but, If station goes from 10KW ERP to 320KW ERP -- (5x more power) it's going to be about 12.5db more signal at the receiving antenna ...

I would say 20db loss inside in the attic compared to outside is probably a fairly good rule of thumb figure. Although as you say, there are no absolutes. If the signal path(s) from the attic to the station's tower is not blocked by, say a brick wall from a nearby building, but the outdoor antenna is, obviously, it might be the other way around ....

In 2600 field tests(some with indoor antennas compared to outdoor at 30 feet at the same residence) documented in the document "Preliminary DTV Field Test Results And Their Effects on VSB Receiver Design" available for download here in PDF format : http://www.atscforum.org/doc/FieldTestReport.pdf ,
On page 19, where it describes the indoor/outdoor antenna placement comparison tests they did with various stations there is a table which includes results for "outdoor to indoor signal attenuation". It reports an average from the tests for the 5 different stations for which they did indoor antenna vs. outdoor antenna comparisons as ranging from 9.5 to 13.5db signal attenuation by placing the antenna indoors. Note that when they did test the antenna indoors, it was often from a spot that provided "good" reception from the 1st floor of house -- The signals coming through windows, for example were likely not attenuated as much as what you would get in an attic.

You can find more info about how they conducted the tests in the document itself, but here's a short quote about the indoor antenna field tests for WGN Chicago from page 20 which should tell you a little :

"A comparison of the outdoor field strength at 30 feet height with that received inside the homes (all on first floors) yielded a median house attenuation loss of about 12.5 dB. The median tap margin increased by about 4 dB to about –12 dB due to the increased multipath, while median margin decreased by about 20 dB to about 23 dB, mostly due to field strength attenuation and partly due to increased static and dynamic multipath."

:end quote

Now -- Let's say you are dealing with a "not so strong" signal, or a signal that is plagued by "noise" from co-channel interference, adjacent channel interference, intermod from an overloaded preamp/etc/etc. So, lets say You're getting a high reading on your signal quality meter -- say 90%. You put a 2 way splitter in the line, and the signal goes below the threshold required for good DTV reception(theoretically about 16db S/N), the meter drops to low readings you get "dropouts"(or blank screen), or, a analog station begins getting "snowy", which would probably indicate you are then getting less than about 64dbu signal strength for UHF stations - less is required for VHF because the overall NF is lower for various reasons. In this case, I can definitely understand why someone might interpret that as 2 way splitter, or ~3db attenuation is adding a LOT of signal loss.

However -- Lets say you are dealing with a "blow torch" signal instead. For instance -- Here, I can add as much as 30~40db of extra attenuation in the feedline before the "signal quality readings" from the receiver(s) for the high power, nearby(12~32 miles) locals even START to drop, or the analog signals start to get a little snowy. On UHF side, that's with XG91 antenna at 40ft used w/Winegard AC-4990 UHF only(older model) mast mount preamp+with tunable traps after the power supply to keep some extra strong analog locals from overloading tuner. It would probably be better if the traps were before the preamp, but In my case, luckily, the preamp isn't overloading from what I can tell ... I of course have this setup(seperate VHF antenna setup as well) for more distant or weak stations, its way more than I need for the strong locals ....

With a simple indoor antenna(pretty close to a "reference" dipole) on the other hand, It only takes between about 3~7db of "extra" attenuation added into the feedline to lose reception from those digital stations which put in a strong signal to the outdoor antenna. Getting a good quality pic from most nearby analog stations(snow mostly, but some ghosting/multipath problems as well) from indoors is for the most part impossible in any case. I am down in a small, steep valley, which "knocks things down" quite a bit in any case as opposed to if I were on "flat" or high ground - with indoor or outdoor antenna on tower ..

Originally posted by obsidian
I keep hearing everyone say that the 91xg is fairly small....am I reading it correct that it's nearly 8 ft. long? Maybe that's small for someone who's used to a tower or something, but for someone living in an association that doesn't allow outdoor antennas it's huge! :) And yes, I've read the posts that legally they can't do that, etc....but it's just such a painful time consuming process to try and fight anything with these people.

Anyway....just wanted to confirm that I've reading the dimension on the 91xg right and that 8ft long = small.

It's 7' 9'' long. It's all a matter of perspective I guess. My UHF section currently consists of stacked Triax Unix 100 A's which are over 3M each. Size matters with antennas.;)

I recently bought a Zenith Silver Sensor and it's been working great with the UHF stations in my area, but I am not always getting a strong signal. Would this amplifier help me get a stronger signal for only existing signals, or would it help me pick up stations better? I'm a little confused on the whole thing.

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90125305&loc=111&sp=1

Another quick question. Is there some kind of splitter that I can use to hook up two antennas to my tuner? I have a Radio Shack 1870 that works well with some of the VHF channels. I want to try and avoid plugging/unplugging antennas for only a few channels.

Well, I hope everyone can stand one more plea for help. I can't thank everyone on this forum for all the help I have received over the last six months as I have attempted to put together a HT. I am having a problem getting all my locals OTA, but from reading this thread I'm pretty confident I can resolve it. Just want to get it right the first time.

Here is my situation. I am in Miami and my digital stations are as follows:

*yellow - uhf WSCV-DT 51.1 TEL FORT LAUD 22° 27.0 52

*yellow - uhf WTVJ-DT 6.1 NBC MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 31

*yellow - uhf WLRN-DT 17.1 PBS MIAMI FL 22° 26.6 20

*yellow - uhf WLTV-DT 23.1 UNI MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 24

*yellow - uhf WFOR-DT 4.1 CBS MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 22

*yellow - uhf WAMI-DT 69.1 TFA HOLLYWOOD 22° 27.1 47

*green - uhf WPXM-DT 35.1 PAX MIAMI FL 22° 27.1 26

*lt green - uhf WBZL-DT 39.1 WB MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 19

*red - uhf WBFS-DT 33.1 UPN MIAMI FL 20° 25.6 32

*red - uhf WPBT-DT 2.1 PBS MIAMI FL 20° 24.9 18

*blue - vhf WSVN-DT 7.1 FOX MIAMI FL 20° 25.3 8

*blue - vhf WPLG-DT 10.1 ABC MIAMI FL 20° 25.5 9

*violet - uhf WHDT-DT 44 IND MIAMI FL 20° 25.8 44


The only stations that are must have are 4,6,7,& 10, the four major networks. I signed up with VOOM a few weeks ago (yeah, I know, just in time for it to be sold) and they put up a small amplified outdoor antenna. 4 and 6 are fine. 7 and 10 are very marginal. I am right on the borderline of getting them. Sometimes I get both, sometimes I get neither, often they pixilate. As you can see, 7 and 10 are both VHF. But all four are under 30 miles away, only one degree off, and I really don't have any major obstructions in the flat landscape of South Florida.

I have about a 100 cable run. Couple of questions. VOOM has the OTA antenna and the dish running on the same cable. Wouldn't I be better off running separate cables for the antenna and the dish?

From reading this thread, I am thinking about the Channel Master 4228 as it has been stated as a very good UHF and a good high VHF, which is what I need. (or it seems to me anyway) Coupled with a 7777 preamp, I'm thinking I should be good to go.

Am I thinking along the right lines? Would this get the job done for me? Or would anyone suggest something better? I am in a single story house and it would mount outside at 20 feet, relatively unobstructed. Any and all insight would be greatly appreciated. Especially since the superbowl in on channel 7 in a mere two weeks!! Thanks again.

I live in Sebring and have no problem picking up my ABC, FOX, and NBC stations from Tampa 50-55 mile range. The closest CBS WINK in FT, Myers is non HD yet and falls in that same range so I should be good once they get their act together. In the meantime I have been getting CBS stations from Orlando(6) and WTSP in Holiday (N.W. Tampa) on a hit and miss signal both of these are 80-90 miles away the WTSP being the further but seems to come in better most times. I currently have the $99.00 combo antenna from RS and a CM-7777 about 30' above the ground. My question is what can I do to try and lock in The CBS station do I need to go higher or get a different antenna? I live on a lake and have a clear shot for the most part towards the Tampa area.

Thanks

All of my local DTV stations are within 358 - 2 degrees at a distance of 15 miles. I am on the second floor of a stud frame house. TV is positioned against an outside wall.

Do you think I'll be ok with a good indoor antenna such as the Terk HDTVi sitting right on top of the TV?

Thanks.

Originally posted by snookboy
Well, I hope everyone can stand one more plea for help. I can't thank everyone on this forum for all the help I have received over the last six months as I have attempted to put together a HT. I am having a problem getting all my locals OTA, but from reading this thread I'm pretty confident I can resolve it. Just want to get it right the first time.

Here is my situation. I am in Miami and my digital stations are as follows:

*yellow - uhf WSCV-DT 51.1 TEL FORT LAUD 22° 27.0 52

*yellow - uhf WTVJ-DT 6.1 NBC MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 31

*yellow - uhf WLRN-DT 17.1 PBS MIAMI FL 22° 26.6 20

*yellow - uhf WLTV-DT 23.1 UNI MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 24

*yellow - uhf WFOR-DT 4.1 CBS MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 22

*yellow - uhf WAMI-DT 69.1 TFA HOLLYWOOD 22° 27.1 47

*green - uhf WPXM-DT 35.1 PAX MIAMI FL 22° 27.1 26

*lt green - uhf WBZL-DT 39.1 WB MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 19

*red - uhf WBFS-DT 33.1 UPN MIAMI FL 20° 25.6 32

*red - uhf WPBT-DT 2.1 PBS MIAMI FL 20° 24.9 18

*blue - vhf WSVN-DT 7.1 FOX MIAMI FL 20° 25.3 8

*blue - vhf WPLG-DT 10.1 ABC MIAMI FL 20° 25.5 9

*violet - uhf WHDT-DT 44 IND MIAMI FL 20° 25.8 44


The only stations that are must have are 4,6,7,& 10, the four major networks. I signed up with VOOM a few weeks ago (yeah, I know, just in time for it to be sold) and they put up a small amplified outdoor antenna. 4 and 6 are fine. 7 and 10 are very marginal. I am right on the borderline of getting them. Sometimes I get both, sometimes I get neither, often they pixilate. As you can see, 7 and 10 are both VHF. But all four are under 30 miles away, only one degree off, and I really don't have any major obstructions in the flat landscape of South Florida.

I have about a 100 cable run. Couple of questions. VOOM has the OTA antenna and the dish running on the same cable. Wouldn't I be better off running separate cables for the antenna and the dish?

From reading this thread, I am thinking about the Channel Master 4228 as it has been stated as a very good UHF and a good high VHF, which is what I need. (or it seems to me anyway) Coupled with a 7777 preamp, I'm thinking I should be good to go.

Am I thinking along the right lines? Would this get the job done for me? Or would anyone suggest something better? I am in a single story house and it would mount outside at 20 feet, relatively unobstructed. Any and all insight would be greatly appreciated. Especially since the superbowl in on channel 7 in a mere two weeks!! Thanks again.

Yes you pretty much have it correct. However a 4221 will do at only 30 miles. The 4228 may get you some of the other channels you are looking for.

Originally posted by tokerblue
I recently bought a Zenith Silver Sensor and it's been working great with the UHF stations in my area, but I am not always getting a strong signal. Would this amplifier help me get a stronger signal for only existing signals, or would it help me pick up stations better? I'm a little confused on the whole thing.

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90125305&loc=111&sp=1

Another quick question. Is there some kind of splitter that I can use to hook up two antennas to my tuner? I have a Radio Shack 1870 that works well with some of the VHF channels. I want to try and avoid plugging/unplugging antennas for only a few channels.

The amp is dirstrubution amp with very litlle gain and a lot of noise. It will not help coming from the antenna. That type of amp is used to split the signal to different TV's after you have enough signal.

You can join the the VHF/UHF antennas to gether by using a band seprator/joiner. They are avaliable at radio shack. You can also use an A/B
switch if you prefer.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-1252

Originally posted by Brett_FL
I live in Sebring and have no problem picking up my ABC, FOX, and NBC stations from Tampa 50-55 mile range. The closest CBS WINK in FT, Myers is non HD yet and falls in that same range so I should be good once they get their act together. In the meantime I have been getting CBS stations from Orlando(6) and WTSP in Holiday (N.W. Tampa) on a hit and miss signal both of these are 80-90 miles away the WTSP being the further but seems to come in better most times. I currently have the $99.00 combo antenna from RS and a CM-7777 about 30' above the ground. My question is what can I do to try and lock in The CBS station do I need to go higher or get a different antenna? I live on a lake and have a clear shot for the most part towards the Tampa area.

Thanks

You are well outside of the Tampa coverage area. You still may have a shot but you'll need the best UHF made. That would be the Antennas Direct 91XG , DB8 or Channel Master 4228. More height will probably help some at 90 miles the curvuture of the earth is killing you. If you elect to try another combo go with the Winegard 8200 or CM 3671. The UHF only will do a slightly better job. Good Luck you're going to need it. 90 miles is about all you can expect from any antenna.

Originally posted by Apesbrain
All of my local DTV stations are within 358 - 2 degrees at a distance of 15 miles. I am on the second floor of a stud frame house. TV is positioned against an outside wall.

Do you think I'll be ok with a good indoor antenna such as the Terk HDTVi sitting right on top of the TV?

Thanks.

You may have a chance but stay away from the TERK antennas. They do not perform well. The Zenith silver sensor is on of the best for indoor reception.

Originally posted by jimc705
The amp is dirstrubution amp with very litlle gain and a lot of noise. It will not help coming from the antenna. That type of amp is used to split the signal to different TV's after you have enough signal.

You can join the the VHF/UHF antennas to gether by using a band seprator/joiner. They are avaliable at radio shack. You can also use an A/B
switch if you prefer.

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-1252
> Thanks, I'll take a look at that joiner. Does using the joiner degrade the signal in any way? Also, do you know if there are any amps around that would work well with the Silver Sensor?

Originally posted by tokerblue
> Thanks, I'll take a look at that joiner. Does using the joiner degrade the signal in any way? Also, do you know if there are any amps around that would work well with the Silver Sensor?

A good vhf/uhf diplexer will have only around .5db loss which is insignificant. The CM 0549 diplexer is very good. http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm
The RS product recommended to you above was I think a mistake. It has 300 ohm connections which you don't want.

Using a preamplifier will usually be most important with a long cable run. With the silver sensor in the same room as your TV it's not likely to make a difference. If you need more signal than the silver sensor provides, you're better off going outdoors with something like a CM 4221.

Not sure what antenna I need to make OTA work for me. I did the antennaweb.org thing and it told me to get a "red" type antenna. All of my channels fell into this category. I am within 20 miles of all of them in small market but have many trees in my area, all near the house, some 100' tall.
Basically, I need three channels:

channel 6 72 degrees
channel 53 185 degrees
channel 47 214 degrees

Any advice as to what specific antenna would suit my needs?

thanks for any suggestions!

Originally posted by minnow31
Not sure what antenna I need to make OTA work for me. I did the antennaweb.org thing and it told me to get a "red" type antenna. All of my channels fell into this category. I am within 20 miles of all of them in small market but have many trees in my area, all near the house, some 100' tall.
Basically, I need three channels:

channel 6 72 degrees
channel 53 185 degrees
channel 47 214 degrees

Any advice as to what specific antenna would suit my needs?

thanks for any suggestions!

Assuming you're in the Lansing area, those stations' digitals are 51,59 ,38 (all uhf). A CM 4221 or Antennasdirect DB4 should do very well either outside (best) or in your attic. You may need a rotor as well if those bearings hold for the digitals (they may not). Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and punch in your coordinates for bearings to your stations. You might have luck indoors with the silver sensor or RS indoor antenna. http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D1880

The Lansing part of the local threads here would be a good place for info:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=233233&highlight=lansing
Also try http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/mi/tv_information.asp?m=lan
Click on the analog station's "complete FCC info" for everything on the analog and digital.

Originally posted by cpcat
A good vhf/uhf diplexer will have only around .5db loss which is insignificant. The CM 0549 diplexer is very good. http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm
The RS product recommended to you above was I think a mistake. It has 300 ohm connections which you don't want.
> Thank you so much for your help. The AVS forums have been an absolutely incredible tool for me. :)

I found a diplexer that the DirecTV installer left behind. It's a Cable-Tronix Diplexer and has a range of 40-2300 MHz. The two inputs are marked as U/V ANT and SAT. There is a line labeled DC Pass on the SAT input. Can I use this diplexer for the VHF and UHF antenna? Is there any reason that I can't put the VHF antenna into the SAT input?

OK, I give up. My local cable company carries HD service. Just found out it's only 6.95/mo.

My UHF antenna that my grandfather gifted me from Radio Shack doesn't have enough gain, even with my CM 7777. Although the CM 7777 made a substantial difference over the signal I was getting before I tried it.

So for anyone out there that needs/wants a CM 7777 let me know, I used it one afternoon, long enough to find out that I still need a different antenna. Can't see sending $100 on an antenna when I can get a year's service though the cable company for $85 locally. I'll sell it for 10% less than I paid. $50 including S&H. Used for 2 hours.

Originally posted by tokerblue
> Thank you so much for your help. The AVS forums have been an absolutely incredible tool for me. :)

I found a diplexer that the DirecTV installer left behind. It's a Cable-Tronix Diplexer and has a range of 40-2300 MHz. The two inputs are marked as U/V ANT and SAT. There is a line labeled DC Pass on the SAT input. Can I use this diplexer for the VHF and UHF antenna? Is there any reason that I can't put the VHF antenna into the SAT input?

That will not work. Sat signal is 950 to 1450 MHZ. UHF is below that. That can only be used to diplex a sat signal with a VHF and/ or UHF antenna.

Originally posted by jimc705
That will not work. Sat signal is 950 to 1450 MHZ. UHF is below that. That can only be used to diplex a sat signal with a VHF and/ or UHF antenna.
> Do you know any B&M stores that carry the diplexer that I would need? I'm placing an order on buy.com in a few days and came up with these in a search. I'm not sure if any of these would work.

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90108882&loc=111&sp=1
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90101733&loc=111&sp=1
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90110741&loc=111&sp=1

I'm hoping someone can help me in time for the Super Bowl. Zip code is 07946, trying to get FOX from NYC about 29 miles away. I can't get outside to put the DB4 antenna on the roof (cold, snow and ice, and I'm a wuss) so I'm trying the attic. I get a signal that, according to my 921 receiver, bounces all over the place (70,66,53,0,7,66,70) but it does lock and aquire. The cable run is about 60 feet, and I have the antenna right against an attic window pointing east to NYC, though there are large oak trees in front of the house. I was up and down trying all kinds of adjustments, but nothing seemed to help. Would an amplifier help, or do I need to keep attempting to find the right spot? Thanks in advance.

What you need is most commonly referred to as a UHF/VHF splitter joiner or UVSJ. Radio Shack is one good bet for a B&M store. Tell them you need the part that combines a VHF antenna's coax to a UHF antenna's coax.

Originally posted by daoust501
I get a signal that, according to my 921 receiver, bounces all over the place (70,66,53,0,7,66,70) but it does lock and aquire. ...Would an amplifier help, or do I need to keep attempting to find the right spot?

I'd try a variable attenuator from Radio Shack. The bouncing signal is probably the result of multipath.

Originally posted by sregener
I'd try a variable attenuator from Radio Shack. The bouncing signal is probably the result of multipath.


Thanks a heap. The only one I see on the RS web site that looks variable is the "TV/CATV Attenuator". Is that the correct part? Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm very new to all of this.

Originally posted by jimc705
Yes you pretty much have it correct. However a 4221 will do at only 30 miles. The 4228 may get you some of the other channels you are looking for.

As my problem stations are VHF, would I not be better with the 3671 which is a VHF/UHF/FM combo than the 4228/4221? Thanks.

Originally posted by tokerblue
> Do you know any B&M stores that carry the diplexer that I would need? I'm placing an order on buy.com in a few days and came up with these in a search. I'm not sure if any of these would work.

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90108882&loc=111&sp=1
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90101733&loc=111&sp=1
http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90110741&loc=111&sp=1

Stark has the CM 0549: http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm

RS makes one:http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-2587 but I couldn't find any specs on it.

Originally posted by daoust501
Thanks a heap. The only one I see on the RS web site that looks variable is the "TV/CATV Attenuator". Is that the correct part? Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm very new to all of this.

That's it. http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-678

Originally posted by daoust501
Thanks a heap. The only one I see on the RS web site that looks variable is the "TV/CATV Attenuator". Is that the correct part? Sorry for my ignorance, but I'm very new to all of this.

That's it.

Originally posted by snookboy
As my problem stations are VHF, would I not be better with the 3671 which is a VHF/UHF/FM combo than the 4228/4221? Thanks.

Here's the deal. You are primarily trying to receive UHF stations, and you have a pair of hi-VHF stations on channels 8 and 9. All the channels are about 30 miles away, and they're all within a couple of degrees of each other. Your terrain is mostly flat. I think the vast majority of us are drooling over your problem. :-)

I would get a medium VHF/UHF combo like the Channel Master 3018 (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/3018.htm) rather than getting a monster like the 3671. The 3671 would work, no doubt about it. But it's going to take a solid mount because it's so big. It's also double the price, and will cost more to ship if you don't have a local source.

Skip the preamplifier. You're close enough that it shouldn't be necessary, and might even make things worse.

If you get a UHF-only antenna and intend to use it for VHF, you'll likely need a rotor as the VHF gain pattern is often skewed 45 degrees away from the UHF gain pattern. It *might* work when aimed directly at the towers, but then again, it might not. Why chance it?

I had this antenna (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/hd7084p.htm) on my rooftop, and I'm in a tree-filled neighborhood and in a sunken valley and found it performed perfectly for channels that were within 45 miles. The 3018 is a similar antenna. Either one should be *more than* enough. It's up to you if you want to try to go smaller.

Only after getting that antenna up there and determining that you're getting a lot of snow on analog channels should you consider a preamplifier.

Hi, I'm just getting into this and want to know:
With my dish 301 receiver, any signal I get with a UHF antenna should be representative of what the reception would be for HD (since it's a digital signal) is that correct? I'm asking because I want to see if I can get any HD using OTA in my area BEFORE I waste a lot of money getting an HD receiver, etc.
Thanks
Rich

Originally posted by sregener
That's it.

As far as I can tell, that didn't do the trick. If I turn it to MIN, I have the same problem with the bouncing signal strength. As I turn it toward MAX, the zero signal strength stays longer and longer. At MAX, I get a steady zero, and from there if I move the antenna around, I still get zero. Any other suggestions?

Originally posted by r royer
Hi, I'm just getting into this and want to know:
With my dish 301 receiver, any signal I get with a UHF antenna should be representative of what the reception would be for HD (since it's a digital signal) is that correct? I'm asking because I want to see if I can get any HD using OTA in my area BEFORE I waste a lot of money getting an HD receiver, etc.
Thanks
Rich

If your analog reception is decent and relatively ghost and snow free, it's likely the digital will follow. I'm not sure exactly what that particular receiver does and I'm assuming you're talking about NTSC (analog) reception.

Originally posted by daoust501
As far as I can tell, that didn't do the trick. If I turn it to MIN, I have the same problem with the bouncing signal strength. As I turn it toward MAX, the zero signal strength stays longer and longer. At MAX, I get a steady zero, and from there if I move the antenna around, I still get zero. Any other suggestions?

Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and put in your coordinates for exact bearings to the towers. A neat site to get your exact lat/long is http://terraserver.microsoft.com/. Once you're sure you've aimed properly (and if that doesn't work) you might consider a preamp such as the Antennasdirect PA16 (doesn't pass VHF though). If you need VHF go with one of the lower gain Winegard models. The AP 4700, AP 8700 I think would work. You need somewhere around 15 db gain UHF and the same for VHF or at least VHF passing capability if you need VHF. I think the only digital is VHF 8 PBS in your area but there are other UHF PBS stations there as well.

If that doesn't work and you have to stay in your attic you'll have to go with a larger antenna (DB8, CM 4228). I'm sure the DB4 would work outside, though. Surely the weather will break sometime in the next two weeks.

Originally posted by r royer
Hi, I'm just getting into this and want to know:
With my dish 301 receiver, any signal I get with a UHF antenna should be representative of what the reception would be for HD (since it's a digital signal) is that correct? I'm asking because I want to see if I can get any HD using OTA in my area BEFORE I waste a lot of money getting an HD receiver, etc.


You can't get anything on UHF with your Dish 301 receiver. It does not have an over-the-air tuner, digital or otherwise.

If your analog UHF signals look good on your television (which probably has a tuner unless it's a plasma screen,) the odds are good that you will get reliable digital reception as well. If, however, your reception is very snowy or has a lot of ghosting, you will probably have some problems with reception. All of this assumes that your local stations are broadcasting digitally on UHF (not all are) and that all of them are at full power (not all are) and that their coverage areas are similar to their analog one (not all are.)

Originally posted by daoust501
As far as I can tell, that didn't do the trick. If I turn it to MIN, I have the same problem with the bouncing signal strength. As I turn it toward MAX, the zero signal strength stays longer and longer. At MAX, I get a steady zero, and from there if I move the antenna around, I still get zero. Any other suggestions?

You probably need A) a better antenna or B) a better location (i.e. outside.) Cpcat had some good advice, though I'd shy away from a preamp at your distance.

I have a new Dish 921 receiver. I want to add OTA to it. I saw others here use the CM4228, so I got one with a CM7775 preamp/amp. I live in the middle of Long Island and others from this forum get a signal.
I tried to get a feel for the setup by trying a temporary connection in my den before I move it to the attic.
Using the 921 signal meter, mostly I am NOT getting any signal.
However once in a while I see a 1 second flash of a signal on the meter. It goes up to about 65%.

I am new to this and I am at a lose what to try next.

Any ideas???

Originally posted by GaryK
I have a new Dish 921 receiver. I want to add OTA to it. I saw others here use the CM4228, so I got one with a CM7775 preamp/amp. I live in the middle of Long Island and others from this forum get a signal.
I tried to get a feel for the setup by trying a temporary connection in my den before I move it to the attic.
Using the 921 signal meter, mostly I am NOT getting any signal.
However once in a while I see a 1 second flash of a signal on the meter. It goes up to about 65%.

I am new to this and I am at a lose what to try next.

Any ideas???

If you really want to do a "dry run" so to speak, get significant RG6 to run up to your attic (up the stairs, down the hall, whatever) then you have a valid test. A few posts up I provided links to get your bearings to the towers. Aiming is very important and the 4228 is very directional.

FYI the 7775 will not pass VHF signals.

Originally posted by sregener
You probably need A) a better antenna or B) a better location (i.e. outside.) Cpcat had some good advice, though I'd shy away from a preamp at your distance.

I'm going to go with option A. I'll upgrade to the DB8 and see what I see. Will post back to let you know if it makes a difference. Thanks to all for the help.

Thanks for the input guys.
Rroyer

Originally posted by ElVee
Is there such a thing as overkill? Because of my proximity to NYC (2 miles from ESB), can I have 'too much' antenna?

Originally posted by sregener
For all practical purposes, no. A larger antenna will be more directional, which may mean that your aim needs to be more precise. But the only way to overdrive the signal is to use an amplifier, which at your distance is not recommended.


Just to clarify my intentions, I was thing about getting a 'deep fringe' antenna mounted on a rotater to be able to pick up stations in either Philly, LI or CT as well as the NYC stations.

Are you saying an antenna this large will not have a negative effect on my receiving NYC stations?

Originally posted by ElVee
Just to clarify my intentions, I was thing about getting a 'deep fringe' antenna mounted on a rotater to be able to pick up stations in either Philly, LI or CT as well as the NYC stations.

Are you saying an antenna this large will not have a negative effect on my receiving NYC stations?

That is correct. You will not be able to use a preamplifier (or any amplifier) to boost weak, distant signals, as the local ones will be too strong (even when aimed in the "wrong" direction) to permit any of the boosting power to go to the weaker stations.

Originally posted by sregener
That is correct. You will not be able to use a preamplifier (or any amplifier) to boost weak, distant signals, as the local ones will be too strong (even when aimed in the "wrong" direction) to permit any of the boosting power to go to the weaker stations.

That's okay. I'm fine with not using an amp or pre-amp. I just didn't want to mess up my local NYC reception by trying to pull in the more distant stations. According to antennaweb.org, the Philly stations are 78 miles away.

I've decided on the Channel Master 9521A rotator. Now I have to decide on an antenna. I'm looking at the Channel Master Crossfire CM3671 and the Advantage 3020.

Any advice?

I'm looking for outdoor antenna advice. I live in Beaverton, Oregon and I'm about 6.5 miles from the transmitters in Portland. There are some large trees nearby and antennaweb says I need a red antenna.

Currently I'm using a Terk HDTVi indoors and I get the HD channels most of the time. There are too many dropouts to be acceptable. When spring gets here and leaves start coming back I'm afraid my signal will be further degraded.

I was thinking of a Channel Master 4221 or 4228 with or without a Titan 7775 preamp. My cable run will be about 60' of RG6. Would the 4221 be adequate for my location given that I already get okay reception indoors with the Terk? Will my 60' cable run drop my signal enough so I'd need the preamp?

I could go all out and get the 4228, but it's pretty big and obnoxious looking. I'd rather go with the 4221 if it will work, but I don't want to regret it with spring/summer signal loss due to new foliage/leaves.

Thanks for any info...

The 4221 will do the job easily. Do not use an amp!! You are much too close for an amp it will cause overload and you'll lose all signals. If you have stations in diffrent directions you may need a rotor. 4221 is directional but not as much as the 4228.

Originally posted by ElVee
That's okay. I'm fine with not using an amp or pre-amp. I just didn't want to mess up my local NYC reception by trying to pull in the more distant stations. According to antennaweb.org, the Philly stations are 78 miles away.

I've decided on the Channel Master 9521A rotator. Now I have to decide on an antenna. I'm looking at the Channel Master Crossfire CM3671 and the Advantage 3020.

Any advice?

The 3671 is a better choice then the 3020.

It always bothers me when I see people suggest the Channel Master Advantage line of antennas because they are so far inferior to the Crossfire line: The Channel Master 3018 is part of the Advantage line, and uses a primative mounting system with space-stealing lower supports, and has very poor low-band VHF performance. If you need to use a meduim-to-fringe all-channel model, consider the Channel Master Crossfire 3679, the Winegard HD7082P, or the Wade-Delhi VU933SR with the optional VU8PZ powerzoom UHF attachment. All of these antennas are better designed and constructed than the Advantage series, and will last longer in most installations. Addditionally, the low-band VHF and UHF performance of these antennas far surpass that even the Advantage 3020 will give you. Yes, the Advantage antennas are cheap, but you get what you pay for, and I, for one, would rather not have to replace antennas every 3 or 4 years!

Okay guys Superbowl is rapidly approaching and I need to replace my antenna to pick up FOX 50. I'm 45 miles from the towers(Oxford) and now am using a Radio Shack VU-120XR. It was suppose to be good up to 90 miles UHF well it isn't. I have the Channel Master 4228 antenna with the Channel Master 7775 pre-amp should this do the trick. There is no major obstruction in the way and with the old antenna I only picked up FOX very sparingly.Will this do the trick for me(only thing I wish is I could of got it up during all those 60 and 70 degree days)

Originally posted by Richard Fuller
Okay guys Superbowl is rapidly approaching and I need to replace my antenna to pick up FOX 50. I'm 45 miles from the towers(Oxford) and now am using a Radio Shack VU-120XR. It was suppose to be good up to 90 miles UHF well it isn't. I have the Channel Master 4228 antenna with the Channel Master 7775 pre-amp should this do the trick. There is no major obstruction in the way and with the old antenna I only picked up FOX very sparingly.Will this do the trick for me(only thing I wish is I could of got it up during all those 60 and 70 degree days)

Couldn't find Oxford on this map http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DS608785.html which is the coverage area for that station's 200kw STA but if you're within 45 miles you should be inside it. It's actually on channel 49. The 4228 should give you a really good shot at it depending on your terrain, antenna height, etc.

Originally posted by jimc705
The 3671 is a better choice then the 3020.

Thanks. I think I'll go with the 3671. Since this is a replacement for my current Winegard GS-1100, it can use the same RG-6 already installed. So, in addition to buying the 3671 and 9521A rotator, I guess the only other thing I need to buy is some rotator wire and I'm all set.

Originally posted by ElVee
According to antennaweb.org, the Philly stations are 78 miles away.

I'm looking at the Channel Master Crossfire CM3671 and the Advantage 3020.


Since you're already getting a rotor, I wouldn't get a VHF/UHF combo antenna. For the NYC stuff, any UHF antenna should be able to get hi-VHF (aimed off by about 60-90 degrees, though) just fine. And *no* combo antenna is as good as the UHF-only antennas for UHF performance.

78 miles is pushing the realm of the possible. Maybe if you're up relatively high compared to surrounding terrain, and don't have any major hills between the two antennas, you'd have a chance. I'm about that from my target stations and I have an AntennasDirect91XG with a 28db preamp and I still don't get most of the stations reliable enough to watch on a regular basis. VHF signals should reach that far, though, but I don't think any Philly stations are broadcasting digitally on VHF right now (and probably the only two to do so after the shutoff would be WCAU and WHYY.)

Avoid bowtie-style antennas with a rotor. The windload is too extreme. Unless you add a support bearing, that is. Then you could be fine with even the DB8 or CM4228.

Originally posted by Richard Fuller
I'm 45 miles from the towers(Oxford) and now am using a Radio Shack VU-120XR. It was suppose to be good up to 90 miles UHF well it isn't. I have the Channel Master 4228 antenna with the Channel Master 7775 pre-amp should this do the trick. There is no major obstruction in the way and with the old antenna I only picked up FOX very sparingly.

Take Radio Shack's mileage ratings and divide by 2, unless you're trying to receive a station over a warm body of water. At 45 miles, you're right on the edge of that antenna's performance.

The 4228 is a much better antenna. Radio Shack would rate it for 120 miles minimum. And if you haven't been using a preamplifier, adding the 7775 will make a huge difference, as well. There are no guarantees in this business, however. There are better performers at channel 50 than the bowtie design, but the differences are slight.

Originally posted by sregener
Since you're already getting a rotor, I wouldn't get a VHF/UHF combo antenna. For the NYC stuff, any UHF antenna should be able to get hi-VHF (aimed off by about 60-90 degrees, though) just fine. And *no* combo antenna is as good as the UHF-only antennas for UHF performance.

78 miles is pushing the realm of the possible. Maybe if you're up relatively high compared to surrounding terrain, and don't have any major hills between the two antennas, you'd have a chance. I'm about that from my target stations and I have an AntennasDirect91XG with a 28db preamp and I still don't get most of the stations reliable enough to watch on a regular basis. VHF signals should reach that far, though, but I don't think any Philly stations are broadcasting digitally on VHF right now (and probably the only two to do so after the shutoff would be WCAU and WHYY.)

Avoid bowtie-style antennas with a rotor. The windload is too extreme. Unless you add a support bearing, that is. Then you could be fine with even the DB8 or CM4228.

I appreciate all the help.

I'm so confused. :)

I'm in a 4 story house. The antenna is about 50' off the ground.

With my current Wingard GS-1100, pointed to about 90 degrees, I always get channel 4, 5 (on 38.4), 9 (on 38.3) and 11. I sometimes get channel 2 or channel 7 - never both - depending on if I move the antenna slightly to either 70 or 116 degrees. I never get channel 13 or 21.

My first priority is to get all of my NYC locals. I'm sure that if I just put my current antenna on the rotator I'd get that. The only reason I'm considering a bigger antenna is to try to see what else I can pull in.

If you are considering using a Channel Master 4228 and a preamplifier, I suggest that you use the Titan 7777 rather than the Titan 7775 UHF only preamp: You will find that the 4228 does a reasonably good job on high-band VHF signals, and the Titan 7777, being a VHF-UHF preamp will help you get the high-band VHF signals that the 7775 would ignore. Since there is only about $4-5 dollars difference in price between the two preamps, it makes sense to use the 7777. Or consider the Winegard AP8275 as an alternative

Originally posted by ElVee
My first priority is to get all of my NYC locals. I'm sure that if I just put my current antenna on the rotator I'd get that. The only reason I'm considering a bigger antenna is to try to see what else I can pull in.

There's nothing wrong with the hobbyist side of things. I love to see what I can pull in, and this changes with weather conditions and tropospheric ducting. I've gotten digital locks over 250 miles away on UHF stations, when the air was just right. I just wouldn't count on any stations coming in beyond about 60 (maybe 65 miles) on a regular basis, no matter what antenna you use. Even that may be pressing things because you won't be able to use a preamplifier, the normal tool for long-distance reception. Then again, if you're situated just right, getting those distant signals might be easier than it was for me.

Good luck!

I've got an old Radio Shack antenna on my roof with rg59 cable running down into the house. There's a 20db UHF pre-amp on it.

Right now I can get the HD Fox station that is broadcasting at a fairly low level, but the signal is weak and at least once every few minutes the picture breaks up for 5 to 10 seconds and then comes back. Will replacing the rg59 cable with rg6 probably help with that?

I

Originally posted by TheDPR
I've got an old Radio Shack antenna on my roof with rg59 cable running down into the house. There's a 20db UHF pre-amp on it.

Right now I can get the HD Fox station that is broadcasting at a fairly low level, but the signal is weak and at least once every few minutes the picture breaks up for 5 to 10 seconds and then comes back. Will replacing the rg59 cable with rg6 probably help with that?

Do airplanes in landing/takeoff patterns fly anywhere near your house? Your problem sounds more like a temporary dynamic multipath problem than a loss issue. If that's the case, the cabling is almost certainly not the culprit.

Depending on frequency (the higher, the greater the effect) and length (the longer, ibid,) RG6 will have less loss than RG59. Whether this is the source of your problem or not is difficult to tell.

Originally posted by sregener
Do airplanes in landing/takeoff patterns fly anywhere near your house? Your problem sounds more like a temporary dynamic multipath problem than a loss issue. If that's the case, the cabling is almost certainly not the culprit.

Depending on frequency (the higher, the greater the effect) and length (the longer, ibid,) RG6 will have less loss than RG59. Whether this is the source of your problem or not is difficult to tell.
No airplanes. I'm 54 miles from the broadcast towers, though, and 27-1 is only broadcasting at 2.97kw. I'm thrilled to be getting it at all, but for the Super Bowl party I'd like to approach perfection if at all possible.

Does multipath mean the signal is coming in from two (or more) different directions? That's entirely possible. There are hills all around here. I'm just fortunate to be near the top of one.

Originally posted by TheDPR
No airplanes. I'm 54 miles from the broadcast towers, though, and 27-1 is only broadcasting at 2.97kw. I'm thrilled to be getting it at all, but for the Super Bowl party I'd like to approach perfection if at all possible.

Whether perfection is possible or not, it's hard to say. The following things are things you should consider:

1) Replace the preamplifier with a Channel Master 7777. This has the highest gain and the lowest noise factor.

2) Replace the RG-59 with shielded RG-6. Quad-shielded would be better.

3) Replace the antenna with a brand-new model from Antennas Direct, designed for UHF perfection. The DB8 would be wonderful if you don't use a rotor. The 91XG would be a good second choice if you do use a rotor.

Sadly, even if you do all three of these, you may not see any serious difference in reception. The #1 factor in reception is location, and unless you do something dramatic, like raise your antenna to twice its current height, that's unlikely to do anything. The fact that you're getting that weak a signal at that range suggests you have line-of-sight, so raising your antenna isn't going to do much. Get as much gain as you can (preamplifier and antenna) and hope for the best, I guess.

DPR,
All the mentioned above by sregener are good recommendations. I would definetly replace the rg 59 with rg 6. This alone, depending on how far the run, may give you enough db gain to make a difference. If the amp you are using if it is a Rat Shack brand I definetly replace it with the CM . I'd then see what you get. If all that fails then you going to need the better antenna. Are you by chance in the tri cities area of TN? We have a DT 27 here at low power also about 70 miles from me. I have the 91xg Antennas Direct with no amp and get it perfect at a signal level in the high 70's and no drops. I'm also in the valley surrounded by hills. The 91 xg is great at fighting multipath. I get stations out to about 80 miles digital full power signal in the 80's with the 91xg without amp. It's an awesome antenna. Good Luck on your quest.

Originally posted by jimc705
DPR,
All the mentioned above by sregener are good recommendations. I would definetly replace the rg 59 with rg 6. This alone, depending on how far the run, may give you enough db gain to make a difference. If the amp you are using if it is a Rat Shack brand I definetly replace it with the CM . I'd then see what you get. If all that fails then you going to need the better antenna. Are you by chance in the tri cities area of TN? We have a DT 27 here at low power also about 70 miles from me. I have the 91xg Antennas Direct with no amp and get it perfect at a signal level in the high 70's and no drops. I'm also in the valley surrounded by hills. The 91 xg is great at fighting multipath. I get stations out to about 80 miles digital full power signal in the 80's with the 91xg without amp. It's an awesome antenna. Good Luck on your quest. I'm actually not too far from your neck of the woods, but a bit closer to Roanoke. Also, I'm on the NW face of a hill, so I can't get anything from tri-cities, while I can get the Roanoke signals.

The problem with some of the advice is the time crunch and my location. I have a week and a half to get the signal for the Super Bowl and I live in the boondocks where Radio Shack or Lowe's are the only supplier of anything.

I can get the cable and upgrade that this weekend then see what happens. I'll need express shipping to get an antenna in a week if I need one.

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

I currently have the RS Catalog #: 15-2156 $99.00 combo job from Radio Shack and ordered the XG91 to try and pull in a CBS station that I am now getting on a hit and miss basis out of Orlando. I have two VHF channels out of Tampa and was wondering if I can still use the combo antenna along with the UHF only antenna with the combo box. Antennas direct told me WFTV I should still get but WFLA(8) maybe a problem so I still may need a VHF antenna. The best deal would be if I could leave the VHF/UHF directed at Tampa and point the XG91 toward Orlando and not have to deal at all with the rotor. Would like to go to bed with PVR set to tape a show on CBS in Orlando and later a show on NBC in Tampa but this will not work if rotor does not move antenna too.

Does anyone have any suggestions on a good setup for my situation. Can the combo be made into a VHF only and left directed toward Tampa and use the XG91 on the rotor or will the combo work fine? I also have a CM-7777

Originally posted by Brett_FL
I currently have the RS Catalog #: 15-2156 $99.00 combo job from Radio Shack and ordered the XG91 to try and pull in a CBS station that I am now getting on a hit and miss basis out of Orlando. I have two VHF channels out of Tampa and was wondering if I can still use the combo antenna along with the UHF only antenna with the combo box. Antennas direct told me WFTV I should still get but WFLA(8) maybe a problem so I still may need a VHF antenna. The best deal would be if I could leave the VHF/UHF directed at Tampa and point the XG91 toward Orlando and not have to deal at all with the rotor. Would like to go to bed with PVR set to tape a show on CBS in Orlando and later a show on NBC in Tampa but this will not work if rotor does not move antenna too.

Does anyone have any suggestions on a good setup for my situation. Can the combo be made into a VHF only and left directed toward Tampa and use the XG91 on the rotor or will the combo work fine? I also have a CM-7777

EASY-PEASY-JAPANEASY

Just hook the combo antenna to the VHF input on the CM7777, the xg91 to the UHF and be sure the internal switch on the 7777 is set to "separate" and you're done. The combo antenna is now vhf only, the xg91 is uhf only 'cause the 7777 has an internal diplexer.

Originally posted by cpcat
EASY-PEASY-JAPANEASY

Just hook the combo antenna to the VHF input on the CM7777, the xg91 to the UHF and be sure the internal switch on the 7777 is set to "separate" and you're done. The combo antenna is now vhf only, the xg91 is uhf only 'cause the 7777 has an internal diplexer.

So your saying I did not need the $18 combo box from AD? This still leaves me with only one small snag The ABC (28)WFTS in Tampa is UHF but I maybe able to snag Wftv ABC out of Orlando however my E*921 only provides guide info on my TAMPA OTA channels for some reason I am sure Dish controls I knew I would have to feal with this for the CBS Orlando channel. I guess you can'have everything .

Originally posted by Brett_FL
So your saying I did not need the $18 combo box from AD? This still leaves me with only one small snag The ABC (28)WFTS in Tampa is UHF but I maybe able to snag Wftv ABC out of Orlando however my E*921 only provides guide info on my TAMPA OTA channels for some reason I am sure Dish controls I knew I would have to feal with this for the CBS Orlando channel. I guess you can'have everything .

No, there's no need for another vhf/uhf diplexer as the 7777 has one.

With the XG91 on a rotor, you can rotate as needed for uhf.

It's difficult to rotate both unless you put up a guyed support bearing or get a heavy duty ham rotor.

It's easy to diplex further on VHF (Lo and Hi) which would allow you to independently point a low and hi band vhf antenna. Lo is 2-6, high is 7-13.
I don't know if you have any low band digitals though. Lo/Hi VHF diplexer available from PICO at http://www.picomacom.com/macom/home/

As far as your E* receiver allowing or disallowing certain channels, don't know for sure. Some of them allow you to enter zip codes to enable other areas.

Originally posted by cpcat
No, there's no need for another vhf/uhf diplexer as the 7777 has one.

With the XG91 on a rotor, you can rotate as needed for uhf.

It's difficult to rotate both unless you put up a guyed support bearing or get a heavy duty ham rotor.

It's easy to diplex further on VHF (Lo and Hi) which would allow you to independently point a low and hi band vhf antenna. Lo is 2-6, high is 7-13.
I don't know if you have any low band digitals though. Lo/Hi VHF diplexer available from PICO at http://www.picomacom.com/macom/home/

As far as your E* receiver allowing or disallowing certain channels, don't know for sure. Some of them allow you to enter zip codes to enable other areas.

YEs I figured I would mount the combo below the rotor and put the 91XG on the rotor since the only VHF I am concerned with are in Tampa. I had it 10' lower at one time and picked up both the VHF channels fine so I will mount it down lower and get the 91XG as high as posible. I think the lowest VHF I need is WFLA NBC channel 7 but remapped to 8. AD told me that I maybe able to get this channel on the XG but not to count on it.

Thanks for the help and feel FREE to pass on any other suggestions.

Okay guys I have success here...today my son took down the Radio VU-120XR and I talked him through(I'm a disabled veteran)putting up the Channel Master 4228 with 7775 preamp. I immediately picked up WRAZ FOX and WLFL WB this along with the main ones CBS,ABC and NBC. The only ones I'm not getting now that I want is PBS and WRDC UPN. Is anybody getting UPN reliably from about 45 miles out?

Originally posted by Richard Fuller
Okay guys I have success here...today my son took down the Radio VU-120XR and I talked him through(I'm a disabled veteran)putting up the Channel Master 4228 with 7775 preamp. I immediately picked up WRAZ FOX and WLFL WB this along with the main ones CBS,ABC and NBC. The only ones I'm not getting now that I want is PBS and WRDC UPN. Is anybody getting UPN reliably from about 45 miles out?

It looks like the PBS is somewhere around 195 deg. from you while the FOX is about 175deg. This may be the reason as the 4228 is pretty directional. UPN has a low power STA of 9.1 kw so that may be the factor there.
Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and put in your coordinates for bearings to your local towers. The best place for getting your exact lat/long is http://terraserver.microsoft.com/

You might be able to split the difference and pick up the PBS as well. You may have to wait until the UPN goes to full power.

Originally posted by Richard Fuller
Okay guys I have success here...today my son took down the Radio VU-120XR and I talked him through(I'm a disabled veteran)putting up the Channel Master 4228 with 7775 preamp. I immediately picked up WRAZ FOX and WLFL WB this along with the main ones CBS,ABC and NBC. The only ones I'm not getting now that I want is PBS and WRDC UPN. Is anybody getting UPN reliably from about 45 miles out?

I'm here in Elon not as far from UPN 35+ miles and am able to get okay most of the time. Ch4 PBS is a little bit further out from you near Chapel Hill. It's a strong station for me, if you rotate your antenna to the southwest a touch you should be okay.

I would imagine that you would need a bandpass filter on the CBS antenna and maybe a notch filter on the regular antenna. Both would be tuned or designed for whatever frequency you get CBS on.

You might try just connecting them both to a splitter/combiner and trying that. If the signals are strong enough it will be okay. If any of the signals are weak, then they will get overpowered by the noise from the other antenna.

If you need a filter, HAM radio guys are usually your best friend.

Originally posted by TheDPR
I'm actually not too far from your neck of the woods, but a bit closer to Roanoke. Also, I'm on the NW face of a hill, so I can't get anything from tri-cities, while I can get the Roanoke signals.

The problem with some of the advice is the time crunch and my location. I have a week and a half to get the signal for the Super Bowl and I live in the boondocks where Radio Shack or Lowe's are the only supplier of anything.

I can get the cable and upgrade that this weekend then see what happens. I'll need express shipping to get an antenna in a week if I need one.

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

If you are trying to get Roanoke stations take a look at their stations and their coverage area from link below.
I think FOX is at low power and some are not having much luck in Wytheville from what I hear. Find the RED DIGITAL indicator and look for the station you're trying to get. Click on the alternative map link for coverage area.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=VA&call=&arn=&city=roanoke&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

Good Luck.

Hi,

I'm looking to the experts in here for some antenna suggestions for OTA HDTV. We've already tried the amplified indoor antenna with very little success, so I'm now here looking for help in choosing an antenna(s) for the attic (yes, I already know.... outdoors is better).

Here's our DTV listings from CEA (61550 zipcode):

* yellow - uhf WYZZ-DT 43.1 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 81° 14.0 28
* yellow - uhf WTVP-DT 46.1 PBS PEORIA IL 282° 6.8 46
* yellow - uhf WMBD-DT 30.1 CBS PEORIA IL 289° 5.3 30
* yellow - uhf WEEK-DT 25.1 NBC PEORIA IL 284° 5.7 57
* yellow - uhf WHOI-DT 19.1 ABC CREVE COEUR IL 292° 8.1 40
* yellow - uhf WAOE-DT 39.1 UPN PEORIA IL 314° 3.0 39

After reading most everything I could find here, it appears that the Channel Master 4228A would be a good antenna to use, but since it appears to be rather directional, would using two 4221A antennas along with a diplexer be a better choice? Perhaps someone has a suggestion for an attic sized multi-directional antenna? BTW, the CEA mileage numbers appear to be 3 or 4 miles low.

Getting the channels in the 282 - 314 degree range shouldn't be too hard, but since FOX is broadcasting the Super Bowl, well... need I say more?

Thanks in advance for any guidance you may bestow upon me.

Originally posted by jimc705
If you are trying to get Roanoke stations take a look at their stations and their coverage area from link below.
I think FOX is at low power and some are not having much luck in Wytheville from what I hear. Find the RED DIGITAL indicator and look for the station you're trying to get. Click on the alternative map link for coverage area.

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=VA&call=&arn=&city=roanoke&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

Good Luck. Thanks. That's a very helpful link. I'm on the right track now.

Originally posted by thorpan
Hi,

I'm looking to the experts in here for some antenna suggestions for OTA HDTV. We've already tried the amplified indoor antenna with very little success, so I'm now here looking for help in choosing an antenna(s) for the attic (yes, I already know.... outdoors is better).

Here's our DTV listings from CEA (61550 zipcode):

* yellow - uhf WYZZ-DT 43.1 FOX BLOOMINGTON IL 81° 14.0 28
* yellow - uhf WTVP-DT 46.1 PBS PEORIA IL 282° 6.8 46
* yellow - uhf WMBD-DT 30.1 CBS PEORIA IL 289° 5.3 30
* yellow - uhf WEEK-DT 25.1 NBC PEORIA IL 284° 5.7 57
* yellow - uhf WHOI-DT 19.1 ABC CREVE COEUR IL 292° 8.1 40
* yellow - uhf WAOE-DT 39.1 UPN PEORIA IL 314° 3.0 39

After reading most everything I could find here, it appears that the Channel Master 4228A would be a good antenna to use, but since it appears to be rather directional, would using two 4221A antennas along with a diplexer be a better choice? Perhaps someone has a suggestion for an attic sized multi-directional antenna? BTW, the CEA mileage numbers appear to be 3 or 4 miles low.

Getting the channels in the 282 - 314 degree range shouldn't be too hard, but since FOX is broadcasting the Super Bowl, well... need I say more?

Thanks in advance for any guidance you may bestow upon me.

A multi directional in the attic may give you severe multipath problems. The 4221 is still directional not as much so as the 4228. Since you are very close the 4221 will probably work fine for you and the beamwidth is wider then the 4228 and may cover the 34 degrees difference at those high signal levels. Fox on the other hand you may need to turn the antenna. As close as you are however it may come in on the backside. Yep outside it will work much better and really isn't all that big. A lot less multipath.

At your distance signal won't be a problem. Multipath may kill you. This is the reason for using the 4228 with a narrow beamwidth close in like you. Attic magnifies multipath for several reasons. Wiring in house, heating ducts, reflection of walls, floor and cieling etc... Just telling you this so if you don't get a good pix with the 4221 you know what you have to do next and yes the 4228 you'll need a rotor for it's beamwidth is about 20 degrees. The 4221 outside will probably do the job. I'm concerned with it in the attic for the reasons I've stated. I know of several attic installs with the 4221 which work fine but they are further out then you. A lot less signal strength to create multipath problems.

Not sure what you are diplexing?
You want to put the antenna on the same feed as a sat signal? OK
What else you have coming from the attic you want to diplex with?
If it's a cable TV line no can do!! They use some of the same frequencies as OTA.

You loose about 2 DB diplexing and if you are splitting it somewhere in the house to other sets you have even more loss. You should have enough signal to do so but digital is touchy. If you find you are having drop outs you may need a seperate run for the antenna or a small distribution amp. Drop outs are usually result of low signal and or mutipath problems. Make a seperate RG6 run from the antenna to be sure it's not severe multipath first. You can amplify all you want and it won't get better.

Good Luck on your quest.

Originally posted by thorpan
I'm looking to the experts in here for some antenna suggestions for OTA HDTV. We've already tried the amplified indoor antenna with very little success, so I'm now here looking for help in choosing an antenna(s) for the attic (yes, I already know.... outdoors is better).


I'd try the Zenith Silver Sensor first. Amplifiers are never a good idea inside of 20 miles, so your amplified antenna was a loser to begin with. Just because one indoor antenna didn't work doesn't mean another one won't (especially if you drop the amplifier.) The Terk HDTVi supposedly is similar to the Silver Sensor, but you won't need to extend the poles since those are for VHF only.

If you want to use two antennas in your attic, you're going to need a Channel Master "Jointenna" for channel 28. This will have one input for channel 28 and one for "everything else." The problem is that there's a little bleed on each side, and channel 30 might become a problem.

It should be possible to use a rotor with a 4-bay bowtie antenna. At your distance, that's the antenna I would recommend if you're going into your attic, unless a 4228 fits well.

Outdoors *is* better, but you'd still have to deal with a Jointenna or rotor if you want to get stations from 81 degrees and 282-314 degrees.

I have a Channel Master 3678 and 7777 pre-amp with VOOM dish Diplexed into the VOOM box. I'd like to just run the ant. straight into the boxes ant input and forget the diplexer, but the installer said the pre-amp wouldn't get power unless hooked to the dish. Is this true, and how might I otherwise power the pre-amp?

Originally posted by atye
I have a Channel Master 3678 and 7777 pre-amp with VOOM dish Diplexed into the VOOM box. I'd like to just run the ant. straight into the boxes ant input and forget the diplexer, but the installer said the pre-amp wouldn't get power unless hooked to the dish. Is this true, and how might I otherwise power the pre-amp?

Your preamplifier has both an indoor and an outdoor box. If the two are connected directly using RG-6 cable (RG-59 will work, but it's not the best...) then the preamplifier will get power. If the two are not, you need to use a diplexer that passes DC voltage (which, apparently, your Voom diplexer does.) I generally recommend bypassing diplexers, as they reduce the signal in unpredictable ways. Most people want them because it means less coax to be run through walls.

Originally posted by atye
I have a Channel Master 3678 and 7777 pre-amp with VOOM dish Diplexed into the VOOM box. I'd like to just run the ant. straight into the boxes ant input and forget the diplexer, but the installer said the pre-amp wouldn't get power unless hooked to the dish. Is this true, and how might I otherwise power the pre-amp?

Yes it may be true. The voom receiver is probably suppling the power to the 7777. They are using the LNB power supply for both the sat amp and the antenna amp. This is done routinely when they install a sat and antenna at the same time. If they didn't give you the white power supply portion of the pre amp then you'll have to purchase a power supply seperate. You can order them seperate with out the amp at several electronic stores. I believe Starke, Solid Signal or Warrens may sell them seperate. If all else fells you can get them direct from Channel Master. You may find with a seperate run you don't need the amp anyway. Give it a shot first and see what happens.

Yeah the installer didn't leave me a power supply. Maybe I'll try the direct route without the pre-amp to see what happens. The PS should come with it though, shouldn't it? I paid the guy $57 for it.

Hi,

Thanks to jimc705 and sregener for their advice :)

The reason I thought that maybe I could use a diplexer (I think this should probably be a Jointenna as srengener pointed out) was if I used 2 antennas in the attic..... one pointing toward the 282° - 314° range area (with UPN being at 314° not all that important), and the other pointing towards 81° (FOX, Super Bowl, Important). I'd rather spend the money on 2 antennas and not have to deal with the rotor. Using this scenario, would the 4228 or the 4221 work better? If 2 will work, any good mounting suggestions such as one in back of the other, one on top/one on bottom, spread 'em out, etc.?

Maybe someone could suggest a really good multi-directional antenna instead and save me all the hassle?

BTW, we won't be splitting off the cable since we only have 1 HDTV (Toshiba 62HMX94), so losing 2db doesn't sound too bad since I think that both of the Channel Mater antennas have about a 10db gain.

I'd thought about the Zenith Silver Sensor, but unfortunately, there just isn't anywhere on top of this monsterous TV to place it that would place it up high enough to allow us to rotate it towards the stations. That means it would have to sit below the TV on the stand (probably not a good option).

Thanks once again for the great advice!!

Originally posted by thorpan
The reason I thought that maybe I could use a diplexer (I think this should probably be a Jointenna as srengener pointed out) was if I used 2 antennas in the attic..... one pointing toward the 282° - 314° range area (with UPN being at 314° not all that important), and the other pointing towards 81° (FOX, Super Bowl, Important). I'd rather spend the money on 2 antennas and not have to deal with the rotor. Using this scenario, would the 4228 or the 4221 work better? If 2 will work, any good mounting suggestions such as one in back of the other, one on top/one on bottom, spread 'em out, etc.?

Maybe someone could suggest a really good multi-directional antenna instead and save me all the hassle?


Last point first: for digital reception the words "multi-directional" and "good" are an oxymoron.

To cover a range like 282-314, you should go with a 4-bay bowtie. The 8-bay is rather directional, sometimes down to as little as 2 degrees. The 4-bay will easily cover a 30 degree range. For the single station at 81, you could use a 4228 if you wanted.

For mounting, you should make sure that neither one is in front of the other. They should be at least 3' separate to avoid creating interference, and the further apart they are, the better. The reflector screen will create some multipath so if you can physically block the active elements on each antenna with the reflector screen of the other, that would be ideal. It's hard to describe, but easy to draw a picture. Unfortunately, ascii isn't all that great. But essentially, you want them to look like a "\/" with the smallest angle being the backs of the antennas.

Originally posted by snookboy
Well, I hope everyone can stand one more plea for help. I can't thank everyone on this forum for all the help I have received over the last six months as I have attempted to put together a HT. I am having a problem getting all my locals OTA, but from reading this thread I'm pretty confident I can resolve it. Just want to get it right the first time.

Here is my situation. I am in Miami and my digital stations are as follows:

*yellow - uhf WSCV-DT 51.1 TEL FORT LAUD 22° 27.0 52

*yellow - uhf WTVJ-DT 6.1 NBC MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 31

*yellow - uhf WLRN-DT 17.1 PBS MIAMI FL 22° 26.6 20

*yellow - uhf WLTV-DT 23.1 UNI MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 24

*yellow - uhf WFOR-DT 4.1 CBS MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 22

*yellow - uhf WAMI-DT 69.1 TFA HOLLYWOOD 22° 27.1 47

*green - uhf WPXM-DT 35.1 PAX MIAMI FL 22° 27.1 26

*lt green - uhf WBZL-DT 39.1 WB MIAMI FL 19° 25.5 19

*red - uhf WBFS-DT 33.1 UPN MIAMI FL 20° 25.6 32

*red - uhf WPBT-DT 2.1 PBS MIAMI FL 20° 24.9 18

*blue - vhf WSVN-DT 7.1 FOX MIAMI FL 20° 25.3 8

*blue - vhf WPLG-DT 10.1 ABC MIAMI FL 20° 25.5 9

*violet - uhf WHDT-DT 44 IND MIAMI FL 20° 25.8 44


The only stations that are must have are 4,6,7,& 10, the four major networks. I signed up with VOOM a few weeks ago (yeah, I know, just in time for it to be sold) and they put up a small amplified outdoor antenna. 4 and 6 are fine. 7 and 10 are very marginal. I am right on the borderline of getting them. Sometimes I get both, sometimes I get neither, often they pixilate. As you can see, 7 and 10 are both VHF. But all four are under 30 miles away, only one degree off, and I really don't have any major obstructions in the flat landscape of South Florida.

I have about a 100 cable run. Couple of questions. VOOM has the OTA antenna and the dish running on the same cable. Wouldn't I be better off running separate cables for the antenna and the dish?

From reading this thread, I am thinking about the Channel Master 4228 as it has been stated as a very good UHF and a good high VHF, which is what I need. (or it seems to me anyway) Coupled with a 7777 preamp, I'm thinking I should be good to go.

Am I thinking along the right lines? Would this get the job done for me? Or would anyone suggest something better? I am in a single story house and it would mount outside at 20 feet, relatively unobstructed. Any and all insight would be greatly appreciated. Especially since the superbowl in on channel 7 in a mere two weeks!! Thanks again.

OK, that was my situation. I purchased a CM 3020. I have three TV's. The antenna is closest to the small TV's in the bedroom and office. The signal is awesome to these sets. Of course, the long run is to the main HD TV. That signal is OK, but not near as good. (On the VOOM set I am getting high 90's to the close TV's and about 85-87 to the main set)

The question is, will a pre amp help me? Or will I just cause more issues. I am getting a strong signal, I am just losing some of it over the long cable run. Not sure if the pre amp will help that or not. Once again, thanks to everyone for taking the time to help. This forum has been priceless.

Originally posted by snookboy
OK, that was my situation. I purchased a CM 3020. I have three TV's. The antenna is closest to the small TV's in the bedroom and office. The signal is awesome to these sets. Of course, the long run is to the main HD TV. That signal is OK, but not near as good. (On the VOOM set I am getting high 90's to the close TV's and about 85-87 to the main set)

The question is, will a pre amp help me? Or will I just cause more issues. I am getting a strong signal, I am just losing some of it over the long cable run. Not sure if the pre amp will help that or not. Once again, thanks to everyone for taking the time to help. This forum has been priceless.

First, are you having dropouts, etc on the main HD set? Absolute signal level doesn't matter a bit, only a stable signal matters. If your signal *quality* is similar on the main set don't change a thing. PQ is only dependent on a stable signal, not on signal strength as measured by your receiver. In addition, different receivers will measure differently.

How long is your cable run to the main set? If it's greater than 75 ft., a preamp might help (if you decide to change). You might consider the CM 3041 model available at Lowe's. You can try it with little risk as the return policy is liberal. It has less gain than the CM 7777 (which is good in your case) but otherwise is very similar. It also has a 300 ohm input which would be ideal for you. You'll need a short section of 300 ohm twinlead to go from the antenna to preamp. Take the balun out. Be sure whatever splitter you're using passes DC so the power supply can supply the preamp section.

OK, great advice thanks! I think I am going to just wait and see how things go. It the signal is stable, I'll just sit tight. Thanks again.

Can anyone recommend a splitter for this situation:

I have an antenna in the attic running to the living room where the powered part of the preamp is plugged in ... I would like to split the line halfway between the attic and living room. Can I do this without affecting the operation of the preamp?

Originally posted by offandon
Can anyone recommend a splitter for this situation:

I have an antenna in the attic running to the living room where the powered part of the preamp is plugged in ... I would like to split the line halfway between the attic and living room. Can I do this without affecting the operation of the preamp?

Yes, you just need a wideband splitter that passes DC on one or both legs. Be sure the preamp power supply is on the leg that passes DC.
At Lowes, there is a splitter by Zenith 5-2Ghz and which passes DC on both which should work for you.

I think it's branded Zenith but may be made by Gemini. Anyway, here it is:
http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=135741-578-ZDS5010 You might need a DC block on the other leg (RS makes one).

Even better would be on just one leg. PICO makes the TSB-21GDC. See http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C3-C4.pdf

EDIT: I tried the Zenith model above and it *doesn't* pass DC even though it is advertised as so. However, the elcheapo model 5-900Mhz Philips splitter sold in the same section *does*(although not advertised as so). Sorry.

Originally posted by atye
Yeah the installer didn't leave me a power supply. Maybe I'll try the direct route without the pre-amp to see what happens. The PS should come with it though, shouldn't it? I paid the guy $57 for it.

Yes the 7777 is packaged with the power supply.

I posted questions about receiving a low power 1kw signal from my local Fox station several weeks ago and had several helpful responses. Since then, I purchased a Winegard 9032 after I found info that stated it was very good at the high UHF signals. The Fox stations frequency is 57. The antenna worked when I temporarily positioned it at 10 feet above the peak of my house when the weather was clear with no other adjustments other than pointing it toward the transmitter and no adjustments as to being close to plumb. The problem I now have is that I put up a mast that is 14 feet above the peak and now I am having problems with the reception. It seems that when I installed the antenna this time the signal seems to come and go. When I tried to find out what the problem was, it made a difference when I adjusted the plumb of the mast. And then today the picture was ok even when I moved the antenna quite a bit either way of plumb. Now tonight I was going to check the reception while the signal was HD and there was no signal at all! The only difference that I can find is that I raised the antenna 4 feet and the weather, it is cloudy and the clouds are fairly low. Can raising the antenna 4 feet have this much affect or could it be blamed on the weather? I am going to check with the station tomorrow to see if they have any answers.

Originally posted by rldud
I posted questions about receiving a low power 1kw signal from my local Fox station several weeks ago and had several helpful responses. Since then, I purchased a Winegard 9032 after I found info that stated it was very good at the high UHF signals. The Fox stations frequency is 57. The antenna worked when I temporarily positioned it at 10 feet above the peak of my house when the weather was clear with no other adjustments other than pointing it toward the transmitter and no adjustments as to being close to plumb. The problem I now have is that I put up a mast that is 14 feet above the peak and now I am having problems with the reception. It seems that when I installed the antenna this time the signal seems to come and go. When I tried to find out what the problem was, it made a difference when I adjusted the plumb of the mast. And then today the picture was ok even when I moved the antenna quite a bit either way of plumb. Now tonight I was going to check the reception while the signal was HD and there was no signal at all! The only difference that I can find is that I raised the antenna 4 feet and the weather, it is cloudy and the clouds are fairly low. Can raising the antenna 4 feet have this much affect or could it be blamed on the weather? I am going to check with the station tomorrow to see if they have any answers.

The short answer is yes to all the above. Weather can effect the signal. Depending how far from transmitter and geographic location of antenna and transmitters. Station power also contributes to problems. As for being plumb not as much as the others but if you are below the horizon pointing up toward the horizon may help for long distance signals. Height definetly makes a difference.

My experience here I tried the roof top about 6 feet above the ridge. Got a few stations but not all. Then tried higher about 15 feet above ridge lost all the stations. Then moved down to my deck about 5 feet of the ground. Got some exceptionally strong some weak others not at all. I tried right even with the roof edge improved some lessen others but did get some others I didn't get at all before. Put son in law on roof and had him increase height about 6 inches at a time. 6 inches higher got another station another 6 inches got all to lock another 6 inches good reliable signal on all. Tried another 6 inches started to lose a station another 6 inches lost a few more.
Finally put it back where I got all from good to very good. Note some lose signal going to higher position but had plenty of signal at lower elevation. Had to give some to get the others. Also note analog signal came in better at higher elevation. Digitals where fussy. I had no need for the analog.

This may or may not be your problem. This is what I found here at my location and may be unique. As little as 6 inches can make a difference with UHF not only in the vertical plane but also the horizontal plane.

As for weather at least with my 91xg the more humidity in the air the better the signal. If it's raining my signal can go up as much as 10 points. I have heard others say their signal goes down in rain. I think since my signal comes in better closer to the ground when it rains it helps keep the waves closer to the ground.

Summary it's not an exact science. Most of the time higher is better but not always. I wouldn't worry too much about it being plumb and more on the height and location. Your station being at 1KW isn't helping much either. Good Luck I hope you find the right spot in time for the Super Bowl.

Originally posted by rldud
Can raising the antenna 4 feet have this much affect or could it be blamed on the weather?

The answer is "both."

At the high frequencies of UHF channel 57, a change of a few inches will move you a full wavelength from the signal you were viewing before. Although it is possible you hit a "hot spot" at 10 feet, the fact that you've gotten rock solid reception at times at 14 feet suggests that the precise location isn't the problem.

However, reception varies depending on a number of factors. I've found that the sun itself can cause issues with reception. Whether this is related to heat or radiation is a matter of some debate. However, my reception gets worse as the sun approaches its apex in the sky, and it is much worse in the summer (when the sun is higher in the sky) than in the winter. I've had days where the reception is rock solid and spot-on, almost regardless of where I point my antenna. Then there are days where I can point my antenna anywhere in the universe and not get enough signal for a lock. There are nights where I get what I'm after, and there are nights where I don't. The most frustrating are the nights where the atmosphere is too unstable to give me a constant signal - I'll get a lock, be able to watch a program for a while, and then lose everything for 10-20 seconds before it locks again. Watching analogs from the same area I can *see* this happening - the picture goes from perfectly clear to multicolored "snow" to black&white and sometimes I even lose audio sync before it transitions back to perfectly clear.

You don't say if you're over the radio horizon (approximately 60 miles for an antenna mounted at 350 meters) or not. More likely, you're physically blocked or at a sufficient distance that background radiation is a major source of reception problems. At 1kw, they're not exactly putting out a signal designed to blast through any problems.

If you haven't tried a preamplifier yet, you might want to give one a shot to see if it helps. It might not.

Unreliable reception of difficult stations is just the nature of the beast. You probably won't be able to count on it until they raise their power. Once they do that, you've got a very good setup that should get you trouble-free results. (For an idea of when that might be, top 100 market "big 4" stations must be at 90% coverage (roughly 50% of full power) by 7/1/05 and all other stations must be at 90% coverage by 7/1/06. There is a possibility of one 6-month extension to these guidelines, though I've heard they won't be granted for many reasons.)

Can someone recommend a good antenna I can use in Marlyand about 35 miles across the bay from Baltimore in 21620 zip? I have an RCA DTC210 Directv HD box that on a whim I connected a tiny indoor antenna to from a small portable tv that surprisingly is pulling in most of the digital stations from Baltimore at anywhere from 60-90%,depending on where I put it! Obviously I want something more stable and outside and having a higher WAF! (Wife Acceptance Factor). I'd like to also pull in the DC stations and possibly(?) Philly. Don't really want a rotor as I don't want to make it too complicated for her,so something thats not so directional? I could go the the Shack right down the road and see what they recommend but you guys know more than they do!

Thank you in advance.

Originally posted by slapshot
Can someone recommend a good antenna I can use in Marlyand about 35 miles across the bay from Baltimore in 21620 zip?

...I'd like to also pull in the DC stations and possibly(?) Philly. Don't really want a rotor as I don't want to make it too complicated for her,so something thats not so directional? I could go the the Shack right down the road and see what they recommend but you guys know more than they do!


Any good UHF antenna should get you the Baltimore stations. This would include the Channel Master 4228, 4248, 4021 and 4308, Winegard PR4400, PR8800, PR9032, and 9065P.

If you want to get Washington stations (pushing 60 miles) you're going to have to get a top-grade antenna and do a little hoping for the best. Top antennas for distance reception include the Channel Master 4228, the Antennas Direct 91XG, the Televes DAT75 (expensive), and the Antennas Direct DB8.

I think you're realistically too far (75+ miles) from Philadelphia to count on digital reception in that direction. It might happen, and it might not. Sometimes it might be great, and other times you might get nothing. I'm not making any promises and anyone who does is either A) lying to you or B) insane.

Any antenna that is multidirectional is not going to work very well. You might be able to use a 4-bay bowtie (CM4021, WG PR4400, AD DB4) and point it between Baltimore and Washington and get signals. Then again, you may not get Washington very well, as the 4-bays aren't top performers at long distances. Any of the larger antennas isn't going to work well at all for picking up 2 cities that are separated by 30 degrees.

You will probably want a low-noise preamplifier. Many report that then Channel Master 7777 is a great choice, and I concur. This probably won't make a difference on the Baltimore stations, but should help greatly with the Washington ones.

It's hard to say just how much antenna you need for Washington, as you're still within the theoretical limits of "normal" reception. A 4-bay bowtie might be all you need. A preamp might make things even better. It's hard to know until you put something up and find out what your reception is like. Then you can tweak and twiddle until you find something that does most of what you want (provided that it's possible.)

I'm 75 miles away from stations, have invested in top-grade hardware, and still don't get reliable reception of any channels on a daily basis. Sometimes they're there. Sometimes they're not. But since you'd need a rotor to point in that direction anyway, you may just want to skip worrying about Philly.

I get my locals pretty well (HDTV tuner), but during some times of day, I get some breaking up. I want to try a pre-amp, like the CM 7777, but I'd like the option of returning it if it doesn't help much. None of my local stores appear to carry the CM 7777, but Fry's has the 3041DSB (http://shop1.outpost.com/product/2571131?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG). The specs are pretty close, but I don't know what other type of functionality might not be obvious from them. Is this pre-amp as good as the CM 7777, or should I just bite the bullet and buy it online?

Xesdeeni

Anyone have experience with this antenna - Samsung Amplified Indoor HDTV Antenna

Model: TV5.2 available at Best Buy - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1091101853964&skuId=6830888&type=product

Thanks for any input.

I have an old Archer preamp on my antenna. The specs claim the noise factor is "3.5 typical" and the gain is 20db.

The only preamp I can purchase locally is this Channel Master from Lowe's:

http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=56326-000000693-3041DSB

with a noise figure of 2.2 and gain of 23db. How much difference should the reduced noise and increased gain make? I'm asking for theoretical numbers and also for practical advice.

I'm getting my local Fox station (broadcasting at around 3kw at around 55 miles) but only during perfect weather conditions. I'd like to improve things for this weekend's Super Bowl, if possible.

Originally posted by Xesdeeni
The specs are pretty close, but I don't know what other type of functionality might not be obvious from them. Is this pre-amp as good as the CM 7777, or should I just bite the bullet and buy it online?


For all intents and purposes, it is identical performance-wise for UHF. It's VHF amplification is a little lower, but that shouldn't be a big deal. It may not have two separate inputs for UHF and VHF, but even that's not a big deal because you can always use a CM#0549 later if you decide to connect a UHF and VHF antenna together later.

Originally posted by hardballpete
Anyone have experience with this antenna - Samsung Amplified Indoor HDTV Antenna

Looks like a gimmick antenna. They never work well. Look for the Zenith Silver Sensor or Terk HDTVi instead.

Originally posted by TheDPR
I have an old Archer preamp on my antenna. The specs claim the noise factor is "3.5 typical" and the gain is 20db.

with a noise figure of 2.2 and gain of 23db. How much difference should the reduced noise and increased gain make? I'm asking for theoretical numbers and also for practical advice.


Noise is a major problem on very weak signals. Gain in an amplifier, once you've overcome line loss and receiver resistance, isn't much of an issue.

I've seen noise cause major reception problems. It's worth a shot to reduce the noise. Archer products (made for Radio Shack) were among some of the noisiest on the market, especially on UHF, so replacing it could make a huge difference.

At worst, it would make no difference at all, which is a possibility. But I'd take the chance if you're on the borderline. Also check your coax connectors while you're out there for corrosion and replace any that look bad.

Originally posted by TheDPR
I have an old Archer preamp on my antenna. The specs claim the noise factor is "3.5 typical" and the gain is 20db.

The only preamp I can purchase locally is this Channel Master from Lowe's:

http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=56326-000000693-3041DSB

with a noise figure of 2.2 and gain of 23db. How much difference should the reduced noise and increased gain make? I'm asking for theoretical numbers and also for practical advice.

I'm getting my local Fox station (broadcasting at around 3kw at around 55 miles) but only during perfect weather conditions. I'd like to improve things for this weekend's Super Bowl, if possible.

No one can say for sure if it will improve your signal. That said the noise difference with a low S/N like yours could make a significant difference. You'll be amplifing 1 DB less of noise while still amplifing the pix at 23 DB. Most newer TV sets have a noisy tuner for the fact most are built to hook to cable. Once you get below the tuner threshold S/N you could see a big difference. S/N actually is more important , or as important, as the gain figure. Since you'll be buying from Lowes you can take it back if you see no improvement. Note if theres no signal to boost then no amp will help.

Originally posted by hardballpete
Anyone have experience with this antenna - Samsung Amplified Indoor HDTV Antenna

Model: TV5.2 available at Best Buy - http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1091101853964&skuId=6830888&type=product

Thanks for any input.

Depending how far you are from transmitter most indoor amplified antennas don't do any better then a dipole. If you are less then 15 miles then you can give it a shot. The Zenith mention by srenger is one of the best indoors for UHF reception.

Originally posted by slapshot
Can someone recommend a good antenna I can use in Marlyand about 35 miles across the bay from Baltimore in 21620 zip? I have an RCA DTC210 Directv HD box that on a whim I connected a tiny indoor antenna to from a small portable tv that surprisingly is pulling in most of the digital stations from Baltimore at anywhere from 60-90%,depending on where I put it! Obviously I want something more stable and outside and having a higher WAF! (Wife Acceptance Factor). I'd like to also pull in the DC stations and possibly(?) Philly. Don't really want a rotor as I don't want to make it too complicated for her,so something thats not so directional? I could go the the Shack right down the road and see what they recommend but you guys know more than they do!

Thank you in advance.

Philly with a WAF is going to be impossible. The Channel Master 4221 should get you Baltimore and maybe DC. It is small and may get it pass the wife. Other options Antennas Direct 43xg or 91 xg or DB4. A last resort for WAF the Sqareshooter by Winegard. Expensive for what you get and may not get you all the channels you are looking for. Since you are going over water it may do the job. The 91xg is highly directional and you may need a rotor for DC.

http://www.solidsignal.com/manu_display.asp?main_cat=03&manu=Channel%20Master&page=2

http://www.antennasdirect.com/MediumRangeAntennas.htm

http://www.winegard.com/offair/squareshooter.htm

Originally posted by jimc705
Philly with a WAF is going to be impossible.[/url]

I don't know who you-all married, but my wife has a much lower tolerance for signal breakups than she does the monster antenna on my 54' tower. If she thought it would make reception more reliable, she'd probably agree to a 75' tower.

How much time do you spend outside your home? How much time do you spend inside watching television? So which picture do you want to look better? :-)

I have been reading a little about grounding antennas and I have a question. If the UHF only antenna is located in the garage attic does it need to be grounded? For that to happen with my setup it would have to be grounded on the main water pipe. Anyone know if this is needed or will be helpful since I seem to have some noise in the line?

Thanks for the info guys,I knew you'd have some great suggestions!
Will either of the CM 4221 or 4228 be ok with all my stations? They all are uhf, correct? I'll give up the idea of Philadelphia as it does seem too far. It would be nice to get DC however.

Yes,mounting any kind (within reason) of antenna on the roof will go over much better with the wife than the signal breaking up all day!

Indoor antennas don't need grounding. There is no wind exposure to build up static electricity.

Thanks Pat, good to know.

I have SD D* so my antenna goes to a 3x4 multiswitch then to a diplexer at the tv. Doing some testing with one of my lines from TiVo, if I use that as a dedicated antenna line (no sat signal) I have much better signal strength to all channels. Is there anything I can do to reduce the signal loss through the multiswitch or diplexer? (I understand you lose some strength for each passthrough) I tried a signal amp and that just made things worse. Powered multiswitch maybe?

Originally posted by slapshot
Thanks for the info guys,I knew you'd have some great suggestions!
Will either of the CM 4221 or 4228 be ok with all my stations? They all are uhf, correct? I'll give up the idea of Philadelphia as it does seem too far. It would be nice to get DC however.

Yes,mounting any kind (within reason) of antenna on the roof will go over much better with the wife than the signal breaking up all day!

If you want DC also I'd go with the 4228. You will need a rotor with it for it's higly directional. The 4221 is less directional but has less gain. It's good out to about 45 miles max. Over water a little better maybe. The 4228 is good out to 60 miles +. You may get away with a 4221 and a preamp CM 7777. Still be less then $100.

I need advice.

Have just purchased a Motorola HDT101 receiver. Hooked it into an older, projection HDTV, and connected a 5 to 10 year old outside antenna (using the flat, twin lead wire; via a device that makes it into a coax connection).

I get a great picture...as long as I hold the antenna wire! Yep, most of the channels just don't lock up...or if they do, they come and go.

Do I need (1) a new antenna or (2) just a better (coax) from the existing antenna or (3) all of the above? If so, what's the cheapest route?

I've already spent more on the receiver than my wife likes. A new antenna will put me in the doghouse. But I want my HDTV! By Sunday!

Ralph ,

Need more info on your antenna . VHFUHF combo Model # or make.
Give us your zip so we can see what you can get. How long a run from outside ? Antenna on roof etc...

Your antenna may or may not work. Is it pointing to the digital towers? Do you have a rotor?
If you have a matching transformer at the antenna and running coax in to tv is it RG 59 or RG 6?

OK, I got a power supply for my CM 7777 pre-amp. Finally got up on the roof and got the amp up close to the antenna. I hooked up a seperate run of RG-6 from the amp to the power supply, and power supply to the VOOM box. I'm 99% certain I had it hooked up correctly, but got absolutely no signal. I talked to my installer who said I needed a diplexer with DC pass between the amp and the power supply. Is this correct?

A question about using a Jointenna:

From my location in the Denver area, I get great reception on CBS (Ch 35), NBC (Ch 16), PBS (Ch 18) and even the elusive ABC (Ch 17) with a RS yagi pointed at downtown (109 deg). However I get 0 strength on Fox (Ch 32) and WB (Ch 34) which are at 192 deg. When I point it at 182 deg I get Fox and WB but none of the others. My zip is 80007.

Here's my question. If I use two antennas and a Jointenna to split out Fox and WB, will I likely lose CBS since it is adjacent to these channels?

Is there another option I might be missing or a better antenna? I would like to avoid a rotator if possible.

Thanks,

Brian J

Mojo, try replacing the diplexer. It is usually the weak link. Check that connections are clean and tight.

Ralph, Pick up a new 300-75 ohm balun and attach it to the antenna. Then run RG6 coax from the balun to the receiver. That old twinlead is very subject to interference.

I just ordered a CM 3023 antenna. I hope/expect an improvement over the old Radio Shack one I'm currently using. But I have a question.

Why are the gain specs of the 3023 and the 4248 different when they are the same style and size? What are the differences between the two? Are the elements placed differently? Made of different materials? The pictures look identical. What gives?

need some advise. getting a 4221 to help pull in some stations. i currently have a combo generic antenna i purchased from Menards. it works very well considering my distance and i can pull all the major networks in clear. my question is how or rather where should i mount my uhf only antenna in reference to my combo antenna? i have an unused chimney i could attach to but that would put it about 30ft in front and to the left of my combo unit. i would assume this is ok since its not in direct line of sight of the combo unit.

the background info: live SW of indianapolis about avg of 25-35mi. from damn near all towers in indy. i do not have any trees in my line of sight. my current combo antenna is about 4ft above the peak of my roof at the far end of the house. so far it works very well, i just want to pick up 3 more channels and i will have all the locals.

thanks,

J

Originally posted by atye
OK, I got a power supply for my CM 7777 pre-amp. Finally got up on the roof and got the amp up close to the antenna. I hooked up a seperate run of RG-6 from the amp to the power supply, and power supply to the VOOM box. I'm 99% certain I had it hooked up correctly, but got absolutely no signal. I talked to my installer who said I needed a diplexer with DC pass between the amp and the power supply. Is this correct?

I f you have a seperate RG6 run between the antenna pre amp and the RF input of the voom receiver with no breaks or splits in the line then NO you do not need a diplexer. Diplexer is only needed if you are running sat and OTA on the same line. The DC for the amp runs up the coax and if you haven't split the line or put anything in the line it should work.

What kind of antenna are you hooking the 7777 to? If it looks like a wing that VOOM sometimes uses it has an amp inside it. If it doesn't get voltage you'll get nothing. You either have to bypass the internal amp or get a small UHF antenna that doesn't have a built in amp. Depending how far out you are will decide what kind of antenna. need further help give us your zip for antenna recommendations.

Originally posted by jimc705
I f you have a seperate RG6 run between the antenna pre amp and the RF input of the voom receiver with no breaks or splits in the line then NO you do not need a diplexer. Diplexer is only needed if you are running sat and OTA on the same line. The DC for the amp runs up the coax and if you haven't split the line or put anything in the line it should work.

What kind of antenna are you hooking the 7777 to? If it looks like a wing that VOOM sometimes uses it has an amp inside it. If it doesn't get voltage you'll get nothing. You either have to bypass the internal amp or get a small UHF antenna that doesn't have a built in amp. Depending how far out you are will decide what kind of antenna. need further help give us your zip for antenna recommendations.

OOPS! forgot from the antenna preamp to the power supply not the RF input on the Voom receiver. Should have a solid run with no breaks from the preamp to power supply then from the power supply to the RF input.

Originally posted by Brian J
A question about using a Jointenna:

From my location in the Denver area, I get great reception on CBS (Ch 35), NBC (Ch 16), PBS (Ch 18) and even the elusive ABC (Ch 17) with a RS yagi pointed at downtown (109 deg). However I get 0 strength on Fox (Ch 32) and WB (Ch 34) which are at 192 deg. When I point it at 182 deg I get Fox and WB but none of the others. My zip is 80007.

Here's my question. If I use two antennas and a Jointenna to split out Fox and WB, will I likely lose CBS since it is adjacent to these channels?

Is there another option I might be missing or a better antenna? I would like to avoid a rotator if possible.

Thanks,

Brian J

All the channels are very close together and a join tenna to notch specfic frequencies is very expensive. I'm not sure but I don't think you can notch adjacent channels like 34 and 35. Probably can with enough money.
If you don't want a rotor the easiest way to do this is to make a seperate RG6 run from the second antenna and get an A/B switch. You than simply switch between the antennas when you want to watch FOX and WB. Radio Shack has both manual and remote controled A/B switches. The remote one is about $30 the manual about $3 at most places.

Make sure you don't mount one antenna in front of the other. Try if possible to have their backs side facing each other for max. F/B ratio.

Originally posted by itsmyforte
need some advise. getting a 4221 to help pull in some stations. i currently have a combo generic antenna i purchased from Menards. it works very well considering my distance and i can pull all the major networks in clear. my question is how or rather where should i mount my uhf only antenna in reference to my combo antenna? i have an unused chimney i could attach to but that would put it about 30ft in front and to the left of my combo unit. i would assume this is ok since its not in direct line of sight of the combo unit.

the background info: live SW of indianapolis about avg of 25-35mi. from damn near all towers in indy. i do not have any trees in my line of sight. my current combo antenna is about 4ft above the peak of my roof at the far end of the house. so far it works very well, i just want to pick up 3 more channels and i will have all the locals.

thanks,

J

30 feet should be good as long as the combo is not looking in the direction of the 4221. In other words the combo signal doesn't have to pass over the UHF to get it's signal. Most combos have about a 30 degree or more beamwidth keep this in mind when installing the 4221. I'd also put the 4221 a little higher or lower then the combo so it's not on the same horiz. plane. You should then be OK.

Originally posted by TheDPR
I just ordered a CM 3023 antenna. I hope/expect an improvement over the old Radio Shack one I'm currently using. But I have a question.

Why are the gain specs of the 3023 and the 4248 different when they are the same style and size? What are the differences between the two? Are the elements placed differently? Made of different materials? The pictures look identical. What gives?

CM made the 3023 in 2 pieces for easier shipping . the 4248 is one piece. Other than that they are pretty much the same. A small difference in the way the directors are shaped diamond on the 4248 and flat on the 3023. May be a very slight advantage with the diamond shape for the old Quantums used the same and they were great antennas. Not enough to worry about. The 4248 cost much more to ship for it's box is over the 5 feet limit and must pay the 70lb weight penalty.

Originally posted by jimc705
What kind of antenna are you hooking the 7777 to? If it looks like a wing that VOOM sometimes uses it has an amp inside it. If it doesn't get voltage you'll get nothing. You either have to bypass the internal amp or get a small UHF antenna that doesn't have a built in amp. Depending how far out you are will decide what kind of antenna. need further help give us your zip for antenna recommendations. I shouldn't have assumed anyone remembered my earlier post. (oops)

Anyway, my antenna (supplied by my installer) is a ChannelMaster 3678, (I just realized it MIGHT be a 4242. They don't look much different.) and I'm trying to pick up Minneapolis and St. Paul channels. The towers are in the same location. (almost exactly 60 miles) I get CBS fairly consistently, NBC now and then, but no FOX or ABC. The one I'm really shooting for is FOX, because the local FOX (out of Eau Claire, Wi) won't be broadcasting in digital let alone HD any time soon.

I'll run down the install so you all can see what the problem might be.
I put the 7777 preamp at the top of the mast so as to have the shortest possible cable from the balun. Then I ran RG-6 down the roof and around a wall into the house (a much shorter run than before) directly into the preamp power supply antenna input, then out the tv output into the VOOM box'es antenna input. (I've used this input with a silver sensor to get a few close stations and it works well)
Having the preamp connected to JUST the voom box (not the power supply) with the diplexer combining the Sat with it I get signal. When I connected it as described above I got O% on everything.

Originally posted by greywolf
Mojo, try replacing the diplexer. It is usually the weak link. Check that connections are clean and tight.


I think it's the multiswitch that is the weak link in my setup. To test this I ran the direct line from the antenna to the diplexer with the sat and tv connected the same as when on the multiswitch. Set this way I still get a clean signal on all my channels. As soon as I route the antenna signal through the multiswitch on the same line as the test, the signal drops and I lose a couple channels. What I'm thinking is getting a 2nd diplexer and combining the sat signal and antenna on just the one line instead of the multiswitch combining it on 4 lines. Does this make sense to anyone?

Atye ,

Really sounds like the amp isn't getting any voltage from power supply. I know this sounds stupid but double check you have the TO ANTENNA connection from power supply going to the amp and the TO TV to Voom box. I've done dumb thinks like that a time or two. Sounds like you did it right though.
When you hook up the diplexer the voltage is coming from the Voom box which is why I think you get a signal.
When you hook up the Voom box to amp via diplexer. Are you using the same RG6 cable from house to amp as when you use the CM power supply? Do you have a voltmeter to check and see if the power supply is working? Should be about 22 volts DC. If you do go up to antenna and see if voltage is up there going into the amp. Should be slightly less.

If all checks out . By pass the amp and run straight from the antenna to voom box. If it still doesn't work then try replacing the balun on the antenna. You should get something with out the amp. The 3678 should do the job by itself.

Originally posted by atye
Having the preamp connected to JUST the voom box (not the power supply) with the diplexer combining the Sat with it I get signal. When I connected it as described above I got O% on everything.

Plug the antenna into the television (or a VCR/Tivo) and see if you get anything on analog channels like 23 or 45. This will confirm that the preamplifier, wiring, and antenna are working correctly.

If the antenna is working properly with all the connections, and then you get nothing with it plugged into the Voom box, you know the problem is inside the Voom box. Is it possible the Voom box itself is outputting power on the antenna output?

Channel Master preamps do not pass a signal if they don't receive power.

People who plug in the preamp power supply before completing the coax wiring have been known to accidentally short out the power supply in the process. This can kill the power supply. Check with a voltmeter to see if the amp is getting power.

Would appreciate some advice. Here's the situation

Station 1 is 31.3 miles away; VHF; Frequency Assigment 2; about 6 kw
Station 2 is 51.5 miles away; VHF; Frequency Assignment 6; about 1000 kw

Do I have any chance in heck of receiving either of these stations with an indoor antenna? I'm in a second story (top) apartment, but am facing south. Station 1 is to the north west, station 2 to the north east. I don't think the attic is an option.

Let me know if I didn't state any of this info correctly. It's what I could gather from Antennaweb and the FCC site.

6kw is plausible for channel 2. But, are you sure that Station 2 with 1000kw is on Channel 6? The FCC would never allow such power on Low-Band VHF. Or, is Channel 6 the "virtual channel number" via PSIP?

What are the callsigns for these two channels?

Station 1 = WWMT out of Kalamazoo, MI. The towers are actually 30 miles north of Kalamazoo closer to Grand Rapids

Station 2 = WLNS out of Lansing, MI.

I'm in Battle Creek, MI (zip 49015).

Thanks for your help. I'm clueless when it comes to signal strength and VHF vs UHF type info.

I believe that both stations will be equally tough. WWMT is closer to you, but that VHF-Low assignment means you will most likely need one of the following:

-- Rabbit ears with a "100 inch wingspan"
-- A cut-to-length folded-dipole antenna, preferrably in an attic if possible (this can be made out of twin-lead wire)

I am 33 miles away from WBBM-DT Chicago on VHF-Low Channel 3. The folded-dipole antenna in the attic is the only way I can reliably get WBBM-DT. If there is any electrical noise in the area (neighbor using a circular saw, blender, etc.), I can't get it at all.

The DTV signal for WLNS is actually on UHF channel 59. Unfortunately, it's farther away from you, and UHF is more "line of sight" than VHF, so the signal for WLNS falls off sharply beyond the horizon. Fortunately, it's the full power of 1MW, and UHF is very much receivable on an indoor bow-tie antenna, or a Zenith Silver Sensor. I get UHF signals from 33 miles away with little difficulty.

One other nice thing about your situation is that, although these two stations come from different directions, one is VHF and the other is UHF. So, you can tack up a folded-dipole antenna in one direction, the UHF antenna in a different direction, and combine then together with a simple VHF/UHF combiner. You won't have to reposition the antenna when you change between the two channels. WOTV Battle Creek, being that it's practically in your backyard, will probably boom in regardless of where you put the antenna.

Thanks for taking so much time to research and reply. My issue is that Comcast in my area doesn't currently carry a HD CBS. I don't want to miss out on March Madness so I'm trying to get something figured out sooner rather then later. I'll try the $50 radio shack antenna I bought for the heck of it, and then try the Silver Sensor.

No problem, Steve.

If you decide to go the route of the homemade folded-dipole, check out this link on how to construct it yourself with about $5 worth of twin-lead cable (and a balun coil / matching transformer of course):

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

There is also an entire thread on AVS Forum devoted to VHF-Low reception issues...

The Official VHF-Low (2-6) Reception Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=434937&highlight=vhflow)

I am interested in getting HDTV to my house and need to understand what my options are. I am currently a dishnet customer and have looked at their website and see they do offer some channels in HD. It also says you will need some additional hardware in addition to the sattelite I already have.

I'm really interested in getting the local channels that are broadcast over the air and perhaps the dishnet package as well, I'm not sure yet.

After some research I have discoverd there any many different types of antenna's (indoor/outdoor - multidirectional/bidirectional and then a size) and I don't really know what I will need. In addition, I don't know how the reception is where I am located......

My address is:
32621 36th Ave. SW
Federal Way, WA 98023

If anyone has information I would be very greatful.

Thanks -
Glen (thegatman)

I am hoping some of you with your infinite knowledge can shed some light on my situation. I have been searching for a roof-top antenna to help bring in the following channels...

red - uhf KFXP 31 FOX POCATELLO ID 30° 5.5 31
red - vhf KPVI 6 NBC POCATELLO ID 30° 5.5 6
* red - uhf KPVI-DT 23.1 NBC POCATELLO ID 30° 5.5 23
blue - uhf K15DG 15 TBN POCATELLO ID 206° 5.0 15
blue - vhf K12OA 12 NBC POCATELLO ID 205° 1.4 12
blue - uhf K61FO 61 ABC POCATELLO ID 167° 2.5 61
violet - vhf KIDK 3 CBS IDAHO FALLS ID 330° 45.4 3
violet - vhf KIFI 8 ABC IDAHO FALLS ID 331° 45.5 8
violet - vhf KISU 10 PBS POCATELLO ID 330° 45.6 10

After doing some research, I found that Channel Master, Winegard, and Antennas Direct are all companies that have quality products but I can't seem to make a decision on a specific model. I need a VHF/UHF antenna and would appreciate any advice you may have to help my decision making process a little easier.

Thanks, in advance, for your help.

Originally posted by thagatman
I....I'm really interested in getting the local channels that are broadcast over the air and perhaps ....Glen (thegatman)

Glen,

Copy & paste the link below to see the HDTV stations near you

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=47%2E31018&longitude=%2D122%2E37798&magnetic_north=0&range=60&sort=channel&show_expired=False&show_construction=False&show_analog=False&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

Call KPCQ and ask for the Engineering Dept. They are a bunch of good guys at that station. That part of the country has too many hills, ridges, and mountains to get a valid answer on the web. At best, folks would be guessing.

The guys at KCPQ should have an idea if you can get either of the Tribune stations (Fox & WB) and are probably willing to share what you can or cannot expect to get from the rest of the nets.

Bob Chase
KHWB, Houston, TX

Originally posted by jimc705
All the channels are very close together and a join tenna to notch specfic frequencies is very expensive. I'm not sure but I don't think you can notch adjacent channels like 34 and 35. Probably can with enough money.
If you don't want a rotor the easiest way to do this is to make a seperate RG6 run from the second antenna and get an A/B switch. You than simply switch between the antennas when you want to watch FOX and WB. Radio Shack has both manual and remote controled A/B switches. The remote one is about $30 the manual about $3 at most places.

Make sure you don't mount one antenna in front of the other. Try if possible to have their backs side facing each other for max. F/B ratio.

Thanks jimc705,

Running the second coax is no problem since I wired my theater with plenty of extra RG6 to an accesable location. The problem is that I'm using a myHD card for recording and I'm not sure how to incorporate an A/B switch or rotor into the scheduled recordings. There might be someone in the HTPC forum who has figured this out.

Brian J

Originally posted by Delerium
I am hoping some of you with your infinite knowledge can shed some light on my situation. I have been searching for a roof-top antenna to help bring in the following channels...

red - uhf KFXP 31 FOX POCATELLO ID 30° 5.5 31
red - vhf KPVI 6 NBC POCATELLO ID 30° 5.5 6
* red - uhf KPVI-DT 23.1 NBC POCATELLO ID 30° 5.5 23
blue - uhf K15DG 15 TBN POCATELLO ID 206° 5.0 15
blue - vhf K12OA 12 NBC POCATELLO ID 205° 1.4 12
blue - uhf K61FO 61 ABC POCATELLO ID 167° 2.5 61
violet - vhf KIDK 3 CBS IDAHO FALLS ID 330° 45.4 3
violet - vhf KIFI 8 ABC IDAHO FALLS ID 331° 45.5 8
violet - vhf KISU 10 PBS POCATELLO ID 330° 45.6 10

After doing some research, I found that Channel Master, Winegard, and Antennas Direct are all companies that have quality products but I can't seem to make a decision on a specific model. I need a VHF/UHF antenna and would appreciate any advice you may have to help my decision making process a little easier.

Thanks, in advance, for your help.

Looks like you in pretty good shape. Most of these are analog channels except one. Have you no interest in the digital equals ofthese channels?

At any rate you'll need a rotor Cm 9521a is a good one. If you are just looking for the analogs any half descent combo will pick up 45 miles fairly easy as long as the terrain alows. Winegard HD 7082 or 7084 Channel Master 3679 or 3678. Antannas direct doesn't have any good long range combo's. I would not use an amp being just 5 miles from the closest station you may have overload. If you find you need an amp you have to get one with a high input signal.

Now if you want the digital equals.
KIDK digital is on UHF channel 36
check and see if you are in their low power coverage area here.
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DS596687.html
KIFI digital is VHF 9
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?n=DS674193.html
KISU is at full power UHF channel 17
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?n=DT623134.html

Since you are close to pocatello looks like you should get KIFI DT 9 and KISU DT17 now and when KIDK DT36 goes full power you should get it. I'd go with seperates for UHF and VHF. I'd get a 91xg Antennas Direct for the UHF's and a high band yagi for VHF the only low band that leaves is 3 and you are close enough you should get that on either antenna. Links are below to take a look. The 91xg will definetly get the low powered UHF digitals and a 10 element high band should do the rest. You also need a UHF / VHF joiner #CM 0549.
You could also use the combo 3678 or 3671 CM antennas or the Winegard hd7084 or hd8200. These are the biggest and best combos. They will not do quit as well as seperates but are an easier install. If you have no mountain or terrain problems they should work as well.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm
http://www.antennasdirect.com/LongRangeAntennas.htm

Originally posted by thagatman
I am interested in getting HDTV to my house and need to understand what my options are. I am currently a dishnet customer and have looked at their website and see they do offer some channels in HD. It also says you will need some additional hardware in addition to the sattelite I already have.

I'm really interested in getting the local channels that are broadcast over the air and perhaps the dishnet package as well, I'm not sure yet.

After some research I have discoverd there any many different types of antenna's (indoor/outdoor - multidirectional/bidirectional and then a size) and I don't really know what I will need. In addition, I don't know how the reception is where I am located......

My address is:
32621 36th Ave. SW
Federal Way, WA 98023

If anyone has information I would be very greatful.

Thanks -
Glen (thegatman)

You are less then 30 miles from many digital stations. If you have a direct line of sight you can get by with a fairly small UHF for all your digitals are UHF. If you are at a base of a mountain that's between you and Seattle or Tacoma it's going to be more difficult. Direct line of sight a CM 4221 or Antennas Direct DB4 should do the trick. If at bottom of mountain then well need more particulars or takes Bob's advice and call your local station.

You'll need a Dish receiver either 811 or 921 which both have built in ATSC digital tuner for OTA reception. You'll also need a rotor CM 9521a to get all the stations on your list. Look at these links.

http://www.solidsignal.com/search_results.asp?main_cat=0&search_crit=4221

http://www.antennasdirect.com/MediumRangeAntennas.htm

http://www.solidsignal.com/search_results.asp?main_cat=0&search_crit=rotor&I1.x=14&I1.y=12

jimc705,

Thanks for your response. I would like to get as many of the digital channels as possible; I was only aware of the one NBC and didn't realize there were others available in my area. I went to antennaweb.org and typed in my zip code (83201) and copy/pasted the lineup in my post. There was no mention of any other digital stations, except the one.

I am willing to use separates if the results are better than using a combo VHF/UHF antenna (and if it is not much more difficult to install). I do like the 91xg for UHF but what would you recommend for VHF. Do you have any experience/preferences with any of the models you mentioned? I apologize for all the newbie questions but I just want to make sure I do this right the first time so I don't have to do it again.

Thanks again for all your help.

Antennaweb.org says I need a "large directional with preamp" for my area. Could someone suggest something or point me to a page # on this [long] thread with suggestions?

Thanks!

http://www.starkelectronic.com/del937.htm
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=ANC7777

Thanks, Rack. Bookmarked!

That one antenna is 16' long :lol: :D

Well, I've ordered the Channel Master CM3671 and CM9521A rotator. They should be here tomorrow.

Now of course, I'm starting to think that I may have an issue with using this antenna and rotator together. According to the Channel Master description of the CM3671, the antenna height is 35.4", length is 173" and width is 110".

Is this too big for the CM9521A rotator to support?

Originally posted by Delerium
I am willing to use separates if the results are better than using a combo VHF/UHF antenna (and if it is not much more difficult to install). I do like the 91xg for UHF but what would you recommend for VHF.

If you're going to use a rotor, you'll need a ball-bearing mount (Stark Electronics has one) to support the weight of both a large VHF and a large UHF antenna. The problem is that they need to be a few feet apart, and the further from the rotor you get, the higher the torque from wind.

Personally, I'd recommend the Winegard 7084P for your purposes. It's a solid UHF and VHF performer for up to 60 miles. The 91XG is a great antenna, but is probably more than you need.

Originally posted by sregener
If you're going to use a rotor, you'll need a ball-bearing mount (Stark Electronics has one) to support the weight of both a large VHF and a large UHF antenna. The problem is that they need to be a few feet apart, and the further from the rotor you get, the higher the torque from wind.

And if they're too close together - say a foot or less?

Originally posted by daoust501
I'm going to go with option A. I'll upgrade to the DB8 and see what I see. Will post back to let you know if it makes a difference. Thanks to all for the help.

The DB8 was no better in my situation. What DOES work in my attic is a Silver Sensor attached to a CM7775 pre amp. Getting solid reception from FOX, which is all I'm after for now! Thanks to all.

Originally posted by ElVee
And if they're too close together - say a foot or less?

Then they have the opportunity to interact with each other. Much as we'd prefer that antennas be perfectly benign when placed near other objects, they bend signals. (In fact, this is what "gain" is.) That bending can work in our favor or against it. If you place two antennas too close together (and this varies by wavelength,) the end result is almost always worse than better. You can end up with multipath, or a weaker signal. I'd say 3' is a minimum.

Originally posted by sregener
Then they have the opportunity to interact with each other. Much as we'd prefer that antennas be perfectly benign when placed near other objects, they bend signals. (In fact, this is what "gain" is.) That bending can work in our favor or against it. If you place two antennas too close together (and this varies by wavelength,) the end result is almost always worse than better. You can end up with multipath, or a weaker signal. I'd say 3' is a minimum.

I really appreciate all the help.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you talking about mounting a VHF and a UHF antenna too close together? I don't think that's what I'm trying to do (unless the CM3671 is really two separate antennae).

I'm talking about mounting a CM-3671 UHF/VHF antenna with an CM9521A rotator and a ball-bearing mount between the two - to hold the antenna more securely. I meant the distance between the roator and the ball-bearing mount. Does that need to be 3' or can it be less? I currently have a small J arm mounted to my chimney specifically for the anytenna. (My Phase III dish is mounted with it's own J arm). If so, I'd need to get a longer J arm.

Originally posted by Delerium
jimc705,

Thanks for your response. I would like to get as many of the digital channels as possible; I was only aware of the one NBC and didn't realize there were others available in my area. I went to antennaweb.org and typed in my zip code (83201) and copy/pasted the lineup in my post. There was no mention of any other digital stations, except the one.

I am willing to use separates if the results are better than using a combo VHF/UHF antenna (and if it is not much more difficult to install). I do like the 91xg for UHF but what would you recommend for VHF. Do you have any experience/preferences with any of the models you mentioned? I apologize for all the newbie questions but I just want to make sure I do this right the first time so I don't have to do it again.

Thanks again for all your help.

Antennaweb.org is a good place to start but they are extremely conservative as to what you actually will get. If you are in the coverage areas I sent you and no huge mountains to get over you should get the additional digitals. In my case they show to Digitals one 17 miles the other about 28 miles. I actually get 5 digitals as far as 60 to 70 miles. I get another 7 from Knoxville 40 to 50 miles. One from NC about 60 miles. All reliable and no drops. I do have a few mountains to get over but most are straight up the valley.

You can use a 10 element high band. You can get them and see a pix of them at Starke Electronic. They run about $30 I believe.
http://www.starkelectronic.com/acantena.htm#Y10

This weighs only about 4 lbs. and the UHF weighs in at 6.5 lbs.
Ideally they should be mounted seprately but can be mounted on the same mast. Channel Master recommends 7 feet apart for the antennas not to interact with each other. 5 feet apart will be min. Put the biggest and heavier toward the bottom. which is almost a toss up here.
Channel 3 is a low band but you are but 5 miles from it and should receive it with no problem. You will need a join teanna 0549 from Starke or others on the web or locally. Solid signal is a little cheaper and have experts to help you with mounting etc.

Cost should put you around the $200 mark with a rotor.

You may find this sight useful for terms and info and the CM sight for mounting.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html

http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf

Pix of the 7084 if you decide to go with a signal combo.
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/hd7084p.pdf

The difference between the combo and seperates is mainly multipath resistance. Combo beamwidth is about 40 degrees at UHF frequencies as you can see. The UHF yagi is as low as 20 degress. A slight better gain then a combo but comparing the best CM UHF 4228 with the 7084
winegard at the channels you want 17 and 36.
4228 gain channel 17 about 11.5 DB
4228 gain channel 36 about 12 DB
HD 7084 gain ch 17 about 13 DB
hd 7084 gain ch 36 about 12 db

So as you can see the 7084 actually exceeds the 4228 in this case. The 91xg is a little better db gain but they don't give channel breakdown gain.
The 7084 can be purchased for around $120 .
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=03&CAT=&PROD=SHD7084
You also may have a local Winegard dealer .

The choice is yours either antenna will perform well for what you need. The combo also will get 3 and 6 better then the seperates although I don't see that as a problem for analog. My UHF gets channel 5and 11 60 miles out off the back side.

Good Luck with your quest.

Originally posted by ElVee
I really appreciate all the help.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you talking about mounting a VHF and a UHF antenna too close together? I don't think that's what I'm trying to do (unless the CM3671 is really two separate antennae).

I'm talking about mounting a CM-3671 UHF/VHF antenna with an CM9521A rotator and a ball-bearing mount between the two - to hold the antenna more securely. I meant the distance between the roator and the ball-bearing mount. Does that need to be 3' or can it be less? I currently have a small J arm mounted to my chimney specifically for the anytenna. (My Phase III dish is mounted with it's own J arm). If so, I'd need to get a longer J arm.

No only mounting to antennas close together. The ball bearing you have can be mounted and should be mounted much closer.
scrool to alignment bearing.
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf

The 3671 is a combo both UHF and VHF but does not apply.

Originally posted by jimc705
No only mounting to antennas close together. The ball bearing you have can be mounted and should be mounted much closer.
scrool to alignment bearing.
http://www.solidsignal.com/manuals/AntInstallGuide.pdf

The 3671 is a combo both UHF and VHF but does not apply.

Great. Thanks so much to all who've helped.

I am putting up a 30' ground mounted mast on which I will mount my CM4221. I am using 18' of 2" thick wall(1/8" thick) and 12' of 2" thin wall(058). I can mount the CM4221 to the top of the mast using U-bolts. However, I would like to maximize the potential height and mount the CM4221 into the top of the mast. The CM4221 has a swaged base that will fit into a 1 1/4" mast. I am looking for a recommendation on how I might reduce my 2" mast in order to receive the 1 1/4" base of my CM4221.
Thanks!
i

Originally posted by jimc705
The difference between the combo and seperates is mainly multipath resistance.

...So as you can see the 7084 actually exceeds the 4228 in this case.

Last point first: As there is no standard way to measure gain, comparing gain numbers between manufacturers is meaningless. Comparing gain numbers between models by the same manufacturer is meaningful, however. Thus, comparing the 4228 and the 7084P by their published gain numbers is fraught with peril.

I disagree that a combo has a larger beamwidth and thus less multipath resistance. If you compare a UHF-only antenna that has the same gain and front-to-back ratio, and is of the same design, then it doesn't matter if there's a VHF section behind it or not - that's what it's beamwidth will be. UHF sections of most UHF/VHF combos are hybrid corner-reflector/yagi designs, with the yagi only really coming to the fore around channel 40 or so. Under that, you've just got a corner reflector.

If you were to stack 8 of the 7084Ps in a similar configuration to the 4228, you'd probably end up with a very narrow beamwidth as well. (You'd also have a major problem when it becomes breezy.) The 4228 is a stack of 8 identical antennas, in a 4x2 array, which is what makes it so precise directionally. You shouldn't compare different designs of antenna and then blame one on being a combo.

My opinion is that the 7084P is a great UHF/VHF combo antenna. I had one and had good results on stations inside of 60 miles, in spite of the fact that I didn't have line-of-sight, and didn't have much elevation on my antenna. When I bought my tower, I switched to an 8200P, and I thought it was a hair better (hard to say for sure, since I also more than doubled the elevation) but that most of the improvement was on VHF. Now that I have an AntennasDirect 91XG, I think it's the best of the bunch, blowing away the 8200P. I am also trying to receive signals over the radio horizon, over long distances, from a relatively sunken elevation. IOW, the impossible. For signals that match the distance and power he's after, the 7084P should be plenty of antenna.

There comes a point where you have to say, "This antenna is good enough to do the job." There are always bigger, badder antennas out there. There will be a new batch that make the old ones look ugly. But if you're getting the signals you want, and they don't break up, who cares?

Originally posted by ElVee
I really appreciate all the help.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you talking about mounting a VHF and a UHF antenna too close together? I don't think that's what I'm trying to do (unless the CM3671 is really two separate antennae).

I'm talking about mounting a CM-3671 UHF/VHF antenna with an CM9521A rotator and a ball-bearing mount between the two - to hold the antenna more securely. I meant the distance between the roator and the ball-bearing mount. Does that need to be 3' or can it be less? I currently have a small J arm mounted to my chimney specifically for the anytenna. (My Phase III dish is mounted with it's own J arm). If so, I'd need to get a longer J arm.

This thread seems a little busy right now, but I think this needs to be addressed further. There should be no problem with mounting the 3671 directly to that rotor as long as you keep the lever arm short i.e. mount the antenna no more than a foot above the rotor, the shorter the better. The real problem is the chimney mount you desribe is not likely to be sturdy enough to hold this and will be the weakest point in your installation. An antenna of this size needs a sturdy mount i.e. ground mount, long wall mount, or guyed roof mount.

Originally posted by cpcat
This thread seems a little busy right now, but I think this needs to be addressed further. There should be no problem with mounting the 3671 directly to that rotor as long as you keep the lever arm short i.e. mount the antenna no more than a foot above the rotor, the shorter the better. The real problem is the chimney mount you desribe is not likely to be sturdy enough to hold this and will be the weakest point in your installation. An antenna of this size needs a sturdy mount i.e. ground mount, long wall mount, or guyed roof mount.

I'm in a 4 story brownstone.

At this height, I agree that I might be able to use a short lever arm, say 1-2 feet. Perhaps, instead of the J arm (which is bolted in with 4 lag bolts), I use metal straps wrapped around the chimney, coupled with a support bearing also mounted to the chimney.

Originally posted by ElVee
I'm in a 4 story brownstone.

At this height, I agree that I might be able to use a short lever arm, say 1-2 feet. Perhaps, instead of the J arm (which is bolted in with 4 lag bolts), I use metal straps wrapped around the chimney, coupled with a support bearing also mounted to the chimney.

Looking back at your original post and your location, why do you need VHF at all? Are you going after analog stations? All the digitals in Philly are UHF and the only VHF you have is a PBS on 8 in NYC. There's another NYC UHF PBS digital even if you can't pick up 8 (which you probably can even with a UHF antenna because you're so close). The XG91 is your best bet as it's higher performance on UHF than the CM3671 and *much* smaller, lighter, easier on your installation and your rotor. I'm sorry you've already ordered that monster antenna.

jimc705 and sregener,

Thank you both for your input. I am leaning toward the 91xg and adding a VHF antenna later, however, I have a couple more questions.

In order to receive the digital stations with my antenna, would I also have to buy an hdtv tuner? I already own a hd television but it doesn't have the built-in tuner. Without purchasing a tuner, would I still get the digital stations in standard definition or would I get nothing at all? Obviously, I am quite new to all of this hd technology so any information you both may have is incredibly helpful.

Finally, what type of roof-mount would you recommend for this setup? I do live in an area where we get pretty strong winds (30-40mph) regularly. Since I do not have a chimney, it seems my only options are a tripod mount or attaching a mast to the side of the house. Which would be easier to mount or better suited for windy conditions? Also, I saw antennasdirect sells a J-style mast, as well. Would this be a better alternative?

Again, I apologize for my ignorance and I can't thank you enough for your help.

Originally posted by sregener
Last point first: As there is no standard way to measure gain, comparing gain numbers between manufacturers is meaningless. Comparing gain numbers between models by the same manufacturer is meaningful, however. Thus, comparing the 4228 and the 7084P by their published gain numbers is fraught with peril.

I disagree that a combo has a larger beamwidth and thus less multipath resistance. If you compare a UHF-only antenna that has the same gain and front-to-back ratio, and is of the same design, then it doesn't matter if there's a VHF section behind it or not - that's what it's beamwidth will be. UHF sections of most UHF/VHF combos are hybrid corner-reflector/yagi designs, with the yagi only really coming to the fore around channel 40 or so. Under that, you've just got a corner reflector.

If you were to stack 8 of the 7084Ps in a similar configuration to the 4228, you'd probably end up with a very narrow beamwidth as well. (You'd also have a major problem when it becomes breezy.) The 4228 is a stack of 8 identical antennas, in a 4x2 array, which is what makes it so precise directionally. You shouldn't compare different designs of antenna and then blame one on being a combo.

My opinion is that the 7084P is a great UHF/VHF combo antenna. I had one and had good results on stations inside of 60 miles, in spite of the fact that I didn't have line-of-sight, and didn't have much elevation on my antenna. When I bought my tower, I switched to an 8200P, and I thought it was a hair better (hard to say for sure, since I also more than doubled the elevation) but that most of the improvement was on VHF. Now that I have an AntennasDirect 91XG, I think it's the best of the bunch, blowing away the 8200P. I am also trying to receive signals over the radio horizon, over long distances, from a relatively sunken elevation. IOW, the impossible. For signals that match the distance and power he's after, the 7084P should be plenty of antenna.

There comes a point where you have to say, "This antenna is good enough to do the job." There are always bigger, badder antennas out there. There will be a new batch that make the old ones look ugly. But if you're getting the signals you want, and they don't break up, who cares?

Allow me to respectfully disagree on not being able to rate gain of one antanna over the other. I agree it's not an exact sciense but both are rated in refernce to a folded dipole (dbd) thus greating and equal starting point. After talking with CM techs and Winegard techs this is their reference point. This is true for only Winegard and Channel Master. Other manufacturers rate theirs differently. I agree it doesn't mean a whole lot unless there are fairly large differences and really doesn't mean that one is better then the other in a particular situtaion. In real life trail and error but it's all we have to use for comparison.

OK I'll give you the beamwidth arguement. If they made such an animal as exact combo and exact same uhf design then just because it's a combo it's beamwidth is not wider. However we must use the specs they give us. The fact is the 7084 doesn't have the same beamwidth as the 4228. I agree not because it's a combo. Sorry maybe used the wrong wording.

As for the 91XG I agree it's one of the best UHF antennas. I have one myself. I also have a 7084p and believe me there's a beamwidth difference. There's also a slight gain difference. Of courseif the beamwidth is narrower the gain will be more. Both are above par of the competitors.

Didn't mean to start an antenna war. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Originally posted by Delerium
jimc705 and sregener,

Thank you both for your input. I am leaning toward the 91xg and adding a VHF antenna later, however, I have a couple more questions.

In order to receive the digital stations with my antenna, would I also have to buy an hdtv tuner? I already own a hd television but it doesn't have the built-in tuner. Without purchasing a tuner, would I still get the digital stations in standard definition or would I get nothing at all? Obviously, I am quite new to all of this hd technology so any information you both may have is incredibly helpful.

Finally, what type of roof-mount would you recommend for this setup? I do live in an area where we get pretty strong winds (30-40mph) regularly. Since I do not have a chimney, it seems my only options are a tripod mount or attaching a mast to the side of the house. Which would be easier to mount or better suited for windy conditions? Also, I saw antennasdirect sells a J-style mast, as well. Would this be a better alternative?

Again, I apologize for my ignorance and I can't thank you enough for your help.

You'll need a separate tuner or all you'll get is good old analog.

The strongest mount without guying is a ground mount. You can also do a long wall mount. Here's a pic of a ground mount. The wall mounts (Channel Master, RS) are available from starkelectronics and others and come in various sizes depending on your needed offset from the wall. I've seen others online even up to 24 inches. The top attachment is the uppermost section of an eave mount. The more spacing you have between attachments, the better, as it increases the mechanical advantage of the mount in resisting torque created by wind on the top-loaded mast. Obviously, it's optimal for the ground to support the vertical load as well.

Originally posted by Delerium
jimc705 and sregener,

Thank you both for your input. I am leaning toward the 91xg and adding a VHF antenna later, however, I have a couple more questions.

In order to receive the digital stations with my antenna, would I also have to buy an hdtv tuner? I already own a hd television but it doesn't have the built-in tuner. Without purchasing a tuner, would I still get the digital stations in standard definition or would I get nothing at all? Obviously, I am quite new to all of this hd technology so any information you both may have is incredibly helpful.

Finally, what type of roof-mount would you recommend for this setup? I do live in an area where we get pretty strong winds (30-40mph) regularly. Since I do not have a chimney, it seems my only options are a tripod mount or attaching a mast to the side of the house. Which would be easier to mount or better suited for windy conditions? Also, I saw antennasdirect sells a J-style mast, as well. Would this be a better alternative?


Again, I apologize for my ignorance and I can't thank you enough for your help.

Yes you'll need a STB (SET TOP BOX) tuner. You are correct without it you'll get dead air as if there's no signal. As for the mount I think a wall mount will probably be more stable but I have mine on a tripod and have taken on 50 MPH winds. This is with the bigger 7084 and is not rountine but rare here. If you are just going to mount the 91xg either will probably work for wind load is low on that antenna. Try to keep the height above the rotor as short as possible and you should be OK. CPCAT has an excellent mount that he may be able to send you a pix. It's heavy duty and will hold just about anything they make. Goes from gound to roof top as for cost I don't think it's too expensive.

Originally posted by jimc705
Allow me to respectfully disagree on not being able to rate gain of one antanna over the other. I agree it's not an exact sciense but both are rated in refernce to a folded dipole (dbd) thus greating and equal starting point. After talking with CM techs and Winegard techs this is their reference point. This is true for only Winegard and Channel Master. Other manufacturers rate theirs differently. I agree it doesn't mean a whole lot unless there are fairly large differences and really doesn't mean that one is better then the other in a particular situtaion. In real life trail and error but it's all we have to use for comparison.



I think Winegard overestimates their gain figures. Compare the gain CM quotes for the 3671 to the claimed gain for the Winegard 8200p.
These are fairly equivalent antennas overall. Also notice the UHF gain comparisons between the CM 4228 and the 8200p.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg2.htm
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmg5.htm
and
http://www.winegard.com/offair/pdf/hd8200p.pdf

There's no way the 8200p is that much better than the 3671. I think CM's figures are probably more accurate and make sense with my experience. The CM 4228 is also a better UHF performer than the 8200p but you'd say they were equivalent looking at the gain figures.