View Full Version : The Official AVS Antenna Topic!
Delerium 02-02-05, 10:53 PM First of all, let me thank everyone who has been helping me with my decision. I am close to deciding on an antenna...Just one more question.
For my location (83201) would there be any advantage to going with a bowtie style antenna such as the DB8 or the CM 4228 (without rotor) or am I still better off with the 91xg (with rotor)? What might the bowtie style offer that the yagi wouldn't and vice-versa? Would one provide a better quality picture?
Thanks again.
Originally posted by imott
I am putting up a 30' ground mounted mast on which I will mount my CM4221. I am using 18' of 2" thick wall(1/8" thick) and 12' of 2" thin wall(058). I can mount the CM4221 to the top of the mast using U-bolts. However, I would like to maximize the potential height and mount the CM4221 into the top of the mast. The CM4221 has a swaged base that will fit into a 1 1/4" mast. I am looking for a recommendation on how I might reduce my 2" mast in order to securely receive the 1 1/4" base of my CM4221.
Thanks!
i
Anyone?
thx
Need to know what the ID is on the 2" thinwall before recommending a transition solution.
Originally posted by Delerium
First of all, let me thank everyone who has been helping me with my decision. I am close to deciding on an antenna...Just one more question.
For my location (83201) would there be any advantage to going with a bowtie style antenna such as the DB8 or the CM 4228 (without rotor) or am I still better off with the 91xg (with rotor)? What might the bowtie style offer that the yagi wouldn't and vice-versa? Would one provide a better quality picture?
Thanks again.
It looks like to me you're likely to need a rotor. Your towers are spaced out quite a bit. The 8-bay will do a little better on channels 14-40 while the xg91 will do better above 40. The 8-bay is hard on a rotor though.
See http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/id/tv_information.asp?m=ida for your local area stations. Click on the analog station's "complete FCC info" for all the lowdown on their digital.
The PQ is unaffected either way as long as you have a stable signal.
robonhood 02-03-05, 08:09 AM Just for your information. I am in Yorktown, Va. I am fortunate that most of the OTA towers are from 192-197 degress at 30 miles. I have tried two differnt Terk anntenns 3 channel with on and four with the other. Also, tried two different Radio Shack and One Winegard. The best I have found yet is the Zenith Silver Sensor with it I get 24 OTA digital channels and some (13-33) of the analog. I mounted the Silver Sensor under the eaves of my house(I know it is supposed to be indoor only.) To make the mount I screwed a 3/4 inch PVC cap to my eave, attaced a two inch piece of PVC to that and then finally a Tee connection through which I ran the cable. I then wedged the antenna into the elbow to maintain the recommended 15 degree slope. According to the diagnostics on my TV I am getting Fox at 92 percent and 29 SNR. The best is ABC at 98 percent and 30 SNR. Most of the channels are coming in at between 78 and 84 percent. I can change that of course by just rotating the antenna a little and that is easy to do since I can reach it from the steps oy my porch. Can't wait for the Super Bowl.
jimc705 02-03-05, 08:54 AM Originally posted by robonhood
Just for your information. I am in Yorktown, Va. I am fortunate that most of the OTA towers are from 192-197 degress at 30 miles. I have tried two differnt Terk anntenns 3 channel with on and four with the other. Also, tried two different Radio Shack and One Winegard. The best I have found yet is the Zenith Silver Sensor with it I get 24 OTA digital channels and some (13-33) of the analog. I mounted the Silver Sensor under the eaves of my house(I know it is supposed to be indoor only.) To make the mount I screwed a 3/4 inch PVC cap to my eave, attaced a two inch piece of PVC to that and then finally a Tee connection through which I ran the cable. I then wedged the antenna into the elbow to maintain the recommended 15 degree slope. According to the diagnostics on my TV I am getting Fox at 92 percent and 29 SNR. The best is ABC at 98 percent and 30 SNR. Most of the channels are coming in at between 78 and 84 percent. I can change that of course by just rotating the antenna a little and that is easy to do since I can reach it from the steps oy my porch. Can't wait for the Super Bowl.
That's great.! I wish we all could get away with that set up. I lived in Richmond VA for several years and know the area where you are located . Delivered to the naval weapon stations many times.
What kind of set / tuner you using that gives you S/N ration % ? That's a great feature. Should put it on all tuners.
You are in a perfect spot for digital reception. I assume you get DC , Norfolk, maybe some eatern shore from MD. and Richmond. Far enough out that multipath isn't a problem, especially since it's flat, and a lot of water for the signal to carry. Congrats on your signals. All we have here are a lot of mountaims and valleys.
You a Philly fan?
I'm pulling for the pats again. There not my team but my team is setting at home watching. I have a 109" 16 x9 screen to watch the Super bowl in hi def here. Going to have a small party with lot's of cold ones.
Thanks for letting others know about your set up and how it's doing.
Take care.
robonhood 02-03-05, 09:00 AM I have the Sony KDF-42WE665.
Originally posted by cpcat
Looking back at your original post and your location, why do you need VHF at all? Are you going after analog stations? All the digitals in Philly are UHF and the only VHF you have is a PBS on 8 in NYC. There's another NYC UHF PBS digital even if you can't pick up 8 (which you probably can even with a UHF antenna because you're so close). The XG91 is your best bet as it's higher performance on UHF than the CM3671 and *much* smaller, lighter, easier on your installation and your rotor. I'm sorry you've already ordered that monster antenna.
I'm going to re-think the whole thing.
I got started thinking about all this because the original Wingard GS-1100 I received from DirecTv doesn't pick up all of my locals (as it's currently pointed). The bulk of my locals are at either 70 degrees and 116 degrees. I have my antenna pointed at about 90 degrees. At this position, I do not pick up my local CBS (2) and ABC (7) stations. I can get my NBC (4), FOX (on 38-4 instead of 5), UPN (on 38-3 instead of 9) and WB (11). If I move the antenna slightly towards 70 degrees, I can get the local CBS and if I move it slightly towards 116 degrees, I can get the local ABC. This is when I decided to try a rotator. Then I thought, as long as I'm getting a rotator, let me try to pull in some stations from further away with a better antenna.
To make a long story short, I'm going to mount the rotator with the original Wingard and see how that works first. If that works well, then great. I'll return the CM2671. If not, then I'll have to make a decision to either try the CM3671 or return it for some thing else.
sregener 02-03-05, 10:01 AM Originally posted by ElVee
I'm in a 4 story brownstone.
At this height, I agree that I might be able to use a short lever arm, say 1-2 feet. Perhaps, instead of the J arm (which is bolted in with 4 lag bolts), I use metal straps wrapped around the chimney, coupled with a support bearing also mounted to the chimney.
Masonry is not designed to handle lateral forces. That is exactly what wind load on an antenna gives. You need to guy this antenna at a minimum, and consider a different type of mount. Otherwise, you could end up with your antenna (and part of your chimney) on the ground in a twisted heap.
sregener 02-03-05, 10:08 AM Originally posted by jimc705
I agree it's not an exact sciense but both are rated in refernce to a folded dipole (dbd) thus greating and equal starting point.
OK I'll give you the beamwidth arguement. If they made such an animal as exact combo and exact same uhf design then just because it's a combo it's beamwidth is not wider. However we must use the specs they give us. The fact is the 7084 doesn't have the same beamwidth as the 4228. I agree not because it's a combo. Sorry maybe used the wrong wording.
As for the 91XG I agree it's one of the best UHF antennas. I have one myself. I also have a 7084p and believe me there's a beamwidth difference. There's also a slight gain difference. Of courseif the beamwidth is narrower the gain will be more. Both are above par of the competitors.
Do you know if the reference dipole is tuned to the channel being measured, or not? See, you can use a "reference dipole" that is tuned to, say, channel 67, and then measure your antenna on channel 32 and - gosh! - you have a great gain figure. But compared to a reference dipole tuned to channel 32, the differene may be much less. There are a number of tricks a company can use to get their gain numbers. I think Winegard's are overinflated compared to Channel Master's, but I have no proof to back that up.
It's easy to find an exact combo vs. uhf design. They're all out there. Measure the distance of the combo's UHF section and find a UHF-only yagi/corner-reflector of the same length and the beamwidth should be comparable.
The 91XG is 93" long. The UHF section on the Winegard 7084P is closer to 80" (and is, IIRC, a little shorter than that.) You'd expect the 91XG to outperform it, even without the specialized elements that 91XG has (which increase gain even more.)
This isn't an antenna war. I'm just trying to be precise. The Channel Master 4228 outperforms all the Winegard models (except for the PR8800, which only outperforms the Channel Master below channel 30.) I don't care what Winegard advertises. The real world says the 4228 is the champ of these two company's offerings.
sregener 02-03-05, 10:12 AM Originally posted by Delerium
For my location (83201) would there be any advantage to going with a bowtie style antenna such as the DB8 or the CM 4228 (without rotor) or am I still better off with the 91xg (with rotor)? What might the bowtie style offer that the yagi wouldn't and vice-versa? Would one provide a better quality picture?
It's impossible to say which one is better. There are people who have tried yagi after yagi after yagi and had no luck, who then switched to a bowtie design and got everything they wanted. There are others who started with bowties and ended up using a yagi.
Generally speaking, a yagi will perform great above channel 30, while a bowtie will perform best below channel 50. There's some variation between models, but that's a good general rule.
I'd try the one that seems the best fit for your location (if you want a rotor, for instance, the yagi is the way to go) and see if it works. If it doesn't, then you can consider a switch.
AntennasDirect guarantees satisfaction, so you'd only be out shipping if you weren't satisfied with the 91XG. I'd pick the DB8 over the CM4228 because of the superior connections.
Once you get a digital lock (with no breakups, no dropouts) there is no difference in picture. This differs from analog, where your eyes are more sensitive than a digital tuner is to imperfections in the signal.
Originally posted by MAX HD
Need to know what the ID is on the 2" thinwall before recommending a transition solution.
Thank you for responding.
The tubing wall thickness is .058". This would make the ID 1.884".
Thx
i
I posted questions back on 1-29 about receiving a low power signal from Fox at channel 57. I had a good picture when I first tried the Winegard 9032 about 10 feet above the peak on a clear day, but when I mounted it about 14 feet the picture was not good at all. This was during cloudy weather and rain that hug around for several days now. Yesterday I was able to try adjusting the height while it was still overcast and the reception was the best at the higher elevation. I guess I am just going to have to live with what I have until they raise the power.
MAX HD!
We're starting to see channel election moves, and it seems to me that stations are moving off VHF-lo (at least here in Chicago). But I don't think they'll move off VHF-hi just yet, so I was wondering how that VHF-hi yagi you just got in:
http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/UltraHighGain/index.html
is doing in preliminary testing. The gain numbers are right up there with or even slightly better than my VU-937SR.
toddr007 02-03-05, 01:17 PM Hi - I posted back on 1-19 inquiring about my antenna choice. Thanks to those of you who responded. (Since its been awhile - I posted that I'm in the western suburbs of Minneapolis, with the twin towers that handle most TV broadcasts at 25 miles and 60°, and a fair amount of trees nearby). I installed a CM 4221 on my roof (mast mounted). I tried first just sticking it on the mast with my old VHF still in place - but I needed to remove the remains of the VHF in order to get the UHF to work - I suppose that isn't a big surprise - they were spaced about 1-2' apart. I also added about 4' of extension to get it up a little higher - although I'm not sure that step was necessary and I will test that out later (the extension is just a length of 1.25" conduit - not antenna boom). Right now I can pull in most of the digital signals except for channel 50. I don't really understand why. When I looked at the net gain curve (from hdtvprimer.com) for this antenna - the gain is still climbing until beyond channel 70. Could there be interference of some sort? As a reference, a couple of the other stations I get seem to be a little marginal (PBS on c34) - the SNR on my TV - SONY KDF 55WF655 - says 20 or a little more, with the signal strength at 70 to 75. I beleive the signal strength on 50 (nominally ABC 5.1) was less than 30, no lock. I haven't checked the diagnostics on all of the channels - this is what I remember from looking at the ones that I noticed as more problematic. Since some of these signals seem a little weak, this is what I was thinking of doing:
1- replacing the old coax with some RG6 with decent connectors. Right now there is a junction box / splitter that the cable has to go through at the base of the antenna (there was not enough length to go all the way to the 4221 with the original cable). This cable is at least 12-15 years old. It's the connectors I'm mostly concerned about.
2 - adding a preamp. I would probably spring for the CM7777 in the event I want to still pull in the VHF (with the addition of a new VHF sometime later).
I have played only a little with the aiming of the antenna - but it doesn't seem to be that directional, in fact I'm getting signals off a different antenna at 347°. I can still try and play with that aspect though. (I used a compass to aim it).
Are there any other suggestions out there? I guess an antenna upgrade is not totally out of the question - but it seems that I'm close so I'd like to try what I can on this one first. Do I need to fire up the chain saw? Some of the aforementioned trees are pretty close - with 20 feet or so.
Thanks,
Todd
Originally posted by sregener
...I'd pick the DB8 over the CM4228 because of the superior connections.
Can you post details regarding how they are superior? I can't see them being $50 superior.
questions/help please
Sorry the thread is soooooo long, I got to page 9 though!
These are probably basic so I'll get to it.
I had d* and ended that. Paying for HDTV was silly, as no local HDTV channels.
STB is a hughes e86 and am trying to use that as an OTA. No longer subscribing.
I've already bought my antenna, a CM3018. They (antennaweb) said to get a multi directional preamp md. I got the LD instead.
Using RG6 , 100' total run. I just used what my dish had that I took down and its split at the tv.
I have it on a 20' mast from the ground/eave mount, and it peaks over the rooftop about 2-3'. Should I increase the distance up another 5-6'? I have a worry about support if I go higher.
It did recommend a preamp, however, I haven't chosen one yet as I don't have a clue which one will suffice.
Problems:
Only get a few local analog channels.
No digital channels.
All the stations I would want to get are within 26 miles, analog and digital. Most are in the same location except for 2. They are approx. 4 degrees from the other. Will I need a rotator just to grab those?
Will the hughes work? Some of the stations say that they are channel 2.1, how do I get to a channel 2.1? When I do a "scan", all that comes through right now is the analog channels.
After reading posts, I see that my hookup is incorrect. I have the rg6 going into a splitter at the tv, one going into the STB and one straight into the TV. Looks as though I should just hook up straight into the STB and run the STB all the time? That way avoiding the splitter? Will cutting off 25' (all I can spare) of cable help or just a waste of time?
Our regular analog stations are a split of VHF and UHF. I can pick up the furthest VHF signal perfectly. The UHF closest is snowy and cuts out.
Will raising the antenna up another 5-6' help ?
Will just adding the preamp eliminate most of the signal problems? Which model? I see the radioshack has 2 models, but don't know the differences. I see alot on the posts of the CM7777 is that the one for myself? Will the preamp eliminate the need to raise the antenna higher?
Sorry it got longer than I thought. Thanks for listening and offering advice
sregener 02-03-05, 02:38 PM Originally posted by toddr007
Right now I can pull in most of the digital signals except for channel 50. I don't really understand why.
KSTP-DT is a hard catch, even for people in the nearby area. There are a lot of theories why this is so, most of which have been discussed on www.hdtvtwincities.com in their forums, but nobody really knows for sure at this point.
Check KSTC (analog) channel 45 for ghosting - do you have any? KSTP-DT is very sensitive to ghosting, so you may need to switch to the much more directional CM4228. You're correct that the 4-bay isn't terribly directional.
sregener 02-03-05, 02:41 PM Originally posted by rdwalt
Can you post details regarding how they are superior? I can't see them being $50 superior.
Durability. Better rear screen design (less porous.) Better connections between the two antenna "halves." For most people, that extra difference won't matter, but for people on the edge, it's worth considering.
You can read details of the flaws in the CM design here:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html
AntennasDirect's DB8 doesn't have those flaws.
toddr007 02-03-05, 02:53 PM Originally posted by sregener
KSTP-DT is a hard catch, even for people in the nearby area. There are a lot of theories why this is so, most of which have been discussed on hdtvtwincities.com in their forums, but nobody really knows for sure at this point.
Check KSTC (analog) channel 45 for ghosting - do you have any? KSTP-DT is very sensitive to ghosting, so you may need to switch to the much more directional CM4228. You're correct that the 4-bay isn't terribly directional.
sregener -
Thanks for the information - I'll check KSTC 45 later today. As I recall - it wasn't very watchable - but then none of the analog ones are after looking at the digital signals. I usually just bypass the analog stations in favor of their digital counterparts. I'll also spend some time looking at the link you posted. I guess I'm not quite done yet. If I need to get a more directional antenna - is there a reason to perfer the 8 bay bow over one of the Yagis?
greenknight 02-03-05, 03:36 PM Now that I have read this entire thread, I realize that I don't know much, even though I thought I did. This is a sad story.
Location and equipment: zip 33436 SqS hdp269 CM 9521a Zenith Sat 520
NBC, CBS, Fox @ 7.5 miles ABC @ 43 miles
First installed this about a year ago and got the stations at 7.5 no problem.
Could not get ABC at all. Didn"t much care until LOST came along. Realized this past weekend that all my rg6 connections were wrong and that I never got any signal from the SqS. So I redid every single connection and to my dismay the signal streghth for NBC and Fox fell from around 90% to
45-50% and CBS is nowhere to be found. (Still no ABC). Thinking the preamp was in overload mode, I unplugged it (but did not take it out of the system) and NBC and Fox went right back up to the 90% range but still
no CBS. Did a hard reboot of the 520 with no success. Still no ABC. If I remove the HDP 269 from the system will it make a difference? Not sure
signal can pass thru with no power. Why no CBS? Haven't a clue as what to do next. Help!
Thanks in advance
Originally posted by sregener
Durability. Better rear screen design (less porous.) Better connections between the two antenna "halves." For most people, that extra difference won't matter, but for people on the edge, it's worth considering.
You can read details of the flaws in the CM design here:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html
AntennasDirect's DB8 doesn't have those flaws.
Thanks for the link. Good stuff.
freefiber 02-03-05, 03:46 PM My local HD stations are all over the map, from about 90 degrees to 240 degrees. After only a few antenna movements (< 10) I find that the antenna is now 10 or 20 degrees off from the expected position and so I have to move it by that 10 or 20 degrees from my presets to get the best signal strength again.
Is this normal? I hope not.
What could be the cause of it?
I don't know the rotor model (I think it's a Channel Master), supporting an 8-bay bowtie antennal (also Channel Master, I think).
Thanks,
Allen
Originally posted by imott
Thank you for responding.
The tubing wall thickness is .058". This would make the ID 1.884".
Thx
i
Use a piece of 1¼ galvanized pipe(1-5/8"OD) inside the thinwall.Bolt it together,then bolt the mast for the 4221 inside of that.
sregener 02-03-05, 04:02 PM Originally posted by toddr007
If I need to get a more directional antenna - is there a reason to perfer the 8 bay bow over one of the Yagis?
If you hang around here long enough, you'll read a lot about stacking of identical antennas to fix multipath problems. The 8-bay is like a preconfigured vertical and horizontal stack. In theory, it should be very directional. In practice, it is very directional, sometimes being sensitive down to a single degree.
The yagis are great for higher channels (like channel 50) but they do worse below channel 35 or so because of their hybrid corner-reflector design. IOW, above channel 40, the yagi is the primary design that controls reception. Below channel 30, the corner reflector is doing most of the work. And corner reflectors aren't very directional at all.
sregener 02-03-05, 04:07 PM Originally posted by freefiber
After only a few antenna movements (< 10) I find that the antenna is now 10 or 20 degrees off from the expected position and so I have to move it by that 10 or 20 degrees from my presets to get the best signal strength again.
Two possibilities here. One good, one not so good.
First, it is possible that you're approaching stations from different directions. For instance, if you always approach a channel at 250 from the south, your motor should work to compensate for it. But if one time you approach from the south, and the next time from the north, then the motor is geared such that you'll end up in a different direction.
You can reset your rotor by turning it to 360 and then to 0. All your old settings should then be valid.
However, the second posibility is not so good. You may be overloading your rotor. Most commercial rotors (cost < $100) aren't very good at handling the load of a 4228. If this is the case, you need to add a support bearing to your mount to take some load off of the poor rotor that was never designed to turn a 16lb antenna in the wind. (Bowtie-style antennas have a very large windload, acting like a sail in a breeze.) The bearing will help, but won't fix the problem entirely. You may end up needing to buy a rotor designed for Ham antennas, which usually means spending upwards of $500.
Originally posted by MAX HD
Use a piece of 1¼ galvanized pipe(1-5/8"OD) inside the thinwall.Bolt it together,then bolt the mast for the 4221 inside of that.
Ah yes...The old take-advantage-of-the-wall-thickness trick!
Thanks!
i
For OTA is there some "magic sauce" that the antenna needs to have? Will my 10 year old RS large antenna work? Actually, its SEEMS to. from a poor location it pulls in one (only) of the OTA HD frequencies, but the picture constantly breaks up. I am about to move it to a better location, but am wondering if a new antenna would be worth the $?
blackngold19 02-03-05, 07:03 PM There is no magic sauce so to speak. HDTV signals are brodcast in the same fashion as before, UHF/or VHF. The antenna is the same. Depending on your distance and location, i.e. terrrain factors, there is a possiblity you could do better with a newer antenna. For starters, go to www.antennaweb.org to see what is available to you for local stations. Also, this site will tell you how far you are located from the signals in miles. Once that is determined, you can select the best antenna for your purpose. Repost the information from antennaweb and I'll try to help you more.
Blackie
Thanks VERY much. I have gotten fuzzy and incorrect answers from various salespeople.
I have gone to antennaweb and it was extremely helpful. (From that I seem to need a "medium directional"). I am 31 miles south of San Francisco, on a hillside. Between me and the large tower from which most local stations broadcast are a few nearby oak trees and about a mile or so away is a ridge line just above the straightline from here to there.
I will try the old antenna before investing in a new one. There is now about a 75 foot run to the receiver and I am going to add about 30 feet to that, so I will buy an amplifier (or preamp?) which can be installed about 20 feel from the antenna in a location protected from the weather. Any recommendations? Radio shack?
Nick
I finally found the problem! After just holding the Winegard 9032 about 10 feet above the peak of my house and seeing a good picture from channel 57 and then mounting the antenna to a mast and having a very poor signal, I was about to give up. Thought it might be the weather since it has been cloudy and raining since the test, or a difference in the height, it is now about 4 feet higher. Next, changed coax but that didn't improve the signal. Tried changing the location of the antenna because it is about 15 feet from the metal roof of my carport and the Fox tower is directly across from it, but this didn't help either. I was just going to put the antenna back up as I had originally installed it and live with it, but decided to change out the balun (even though it was new when I first tried the antenna). I was connecting the guy wires back up when my wife came out and said that the picture was GREAT! I was just about to wear out the shingles, but I guess that's how it goes sometimes. Always check the hardware! Thanks again for all the input.
toddr007 02-03-05, 10:14 PM Originally posted by sregener
If you hang around here long enough, you'll read a lot about stacking of identical antennas to fix multipath problems. The 8-bay is like a preconfigured vertical and horizontal stack. In theory, it should be very directional. In practice, it is very directional, sometimes being sensitive down to a single degree.
The yagis are great for higher channels (like channel 50) but they do worse below channel 35 or so because of their hybrid corner-reflector design. IOW, above channel 40, the yagi is the primary design that controls reception. Below channel 30, the corner reflector is doing most of the work. And corner reflectors aren't very directional at all.
sregener - thanks for the info. I think I get it. The gain isn't that much greater on the 4228 over the 4221- but it will be more directional, right? If I read the gain chart correctly for channel 50, the net gain is 15.6 db versus 14.2 (to my eyes).
I sat down tonight and looked at the diagnostic screen on my TV tuner and wrote down all of signal strengths and SNR for each of the digital channels. I did as you suggested and looked at channel 45 analog - it was a just a little bit snowy - but not really bad. It was certainly watchable and I saw no ghosting. The digital channel 50 (KSTP) 5.1 - reads 32 /100 on the signal strength and 0 - 10 dB on the SNR, 5.2 was 35/100 and 0 - 10dB. (My TV even found some strong sigals with no content on them - maybe KSTP can borrow those frequencies).
I suppose if I need to buy another antenna, I could go with the 8-bay or just add the yagi and do all that fancy filtering. I guess this is where I could also throw in the towel and get cable - but I'd rather not. At least FOX will be working good enough for the Superbowl.
So is the real question I need to answer the one concerning whether I'm dealing with a multi-path problem versus a weak signal? And how do I determine that?
Thanks for your patience...
Todd
nickww-
Skip the RS amp, get the Channelmaster 7777, and mount it on the antenna mast. Make sure you are using RG-6 cable. For info, the CM will drive up to 275 feet of RG-6. Also, the shorter the cable run, the better.
sregener 02-04-05, 09:06 AM Originally posted by nickww
For OTA is there some "magic sauce" that the antenna needs to have? Will my 10 year old RS large antenna work? Actually, its SEEMS to. from a poor location it pulls in one (only) of the OTA HD frequencies, but the picture constantly breaks up. I am about to move it to a better location, but am wondering if a new antenna would be worth the $?
Life of an average antenna is about 10 years. Radio Shack isn't known for their durability, so it might be less than that. Usually, it's not a case that the antenna stops working, but the performance declines to a point where it's no longer as good as the next model down, and then the next model down, and so on... Even a coat hanger gets some signal.
There's nothing magic about OTA HD, because it's broadcast on the same frequencies as analog television. (In fact, it will end up being broadcast on fewer channels than analog, the real reason why the government is pushing the digital transition.) Right now, that's channels 2-67. After the analog shutoff, it will be 2-51.
There's no reason to replace an antenna that works. So if you try it at your new location and everything is good, great! If not, however, I'd recommend a replacement antenna.
sregener 02-04-05, 09:10 AM Originally posted by toddr007
So is the real question I need to answer the one concerning whether I'm dealing with a multi-path problem versus a weak signal? And how do I determine that?
You just did. Weak signals show up on analog as snow. Multipath shows up as ghosting. (Some people get both.) If you're getting snow but not ghosting, a weak signal is your problem, not multipath.
The solution for a weak signal is either a larger antenna (like the 4228) or a preamplifier. I'd go with the preamp, personally. Get one from Channel Master or Winegard that has less than 20db of gain. The top gain models might overload. There's no guarantee that this will work, so keep your receipts.
offandon 02-04-05, 09:25 AM A couple of quick questions ... I have been reading many pages but still have the need for some advice if anyone has a minute to answer.
1) Is the Terk antenna that looks like the Silver Sensor the same or at least perform very similarly?
2) Does Radio Shack have a UHF indoor antenna that will perform on that level?
Thanks.
greywolf 02-04-05, 09:49 AM 1. No. It's no substitute fo a real SvS and more $ to boot. No Terk antenna is a good buy.
2. The 15-1880 gets good reviews and does VHF too, but there is no small indoor antenna to equal the SvS in UHF performance except maybe the hard to find R/S item known as the double bow tie with balun modification. I don't have a model number or mod details so maybe a fan will follow up.
Originally posted by Rack
MAX HD!
We're starting to see channel election moves, and it seems to me that stations are moving off VHF-lo (at least here in Chicago). But I don't think they'll move off VHF-hi just yet, so I was wondering how that VHF-hi yagi you just got in:
http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/UltraHighGain/index.html
is doing in preliminary testing. The gain numbers are right up there with or even slightly better than my VU-937SR.
I haven't heard of any station that's planning on keeping their Low Band DT allocation.I believe that most markets will have stations that migrate to High Band for reduced operating costs,and now with digital the adjacent channel problem is eliminated.High Band has always been the "crown jewel" in TV broadcasting,and will be even more so in the future.
I've been busy testing the new ants,but final conclusions will take some time.Testing antennas can be very aggravating as they can't be placed in the same exact spot at the same time.
Preliminary results do show an increase in performance on 10,11,12,13,but more time is needed to make a final determination.What I really need is some test equipment other than my eyeballs :-)
Originally posted by MAX HD
I haven't heard of any station that's planning on keeping their Low Band DT allocation.I believe that most markets will have stations that migrate to High Band for reduced operating costs,and now with digital the adjacent channel problem is eliminated.High Band has always been the "crown jewel" in TV broadcasting,and will be even more so in the future.
WDKY FOX digital 4 in Lexington, KY. They *just* completed a brand new tower for both their digital and analog and they're broadcasting at 26.5 kw which I think makes them the second strongest low band digital in the nation (I think there's a channel 2 in Las Vegas at 27 kw). You might have a shot at them intermittently from where you are. Anyway, I'd be very surprised it they don't stay put. They are owned by Sinclair and most likely won't be interested in investing in making a change at least for the time being.
Xesdeeni 02-04-05, 01:39 PM Are any of the stations actually publishing their decisions at this point? I'd love to know how many are stying put on UHF, and how many are moving back to VHF.
Xesdeeni
sregener 02-04-05, 01:45 PM Originally posted by MAX HD
I believe that most markets will have stations that migrate to High Band for reduced operating costs,and now with digital the adjacent channel problem is eliminated.High Band has always been the "crown jewel" in TV broadcasting,and will be even more so in the future.
Not to argue with an expert, but the following points crop into my head right off the bat.
1) Hi-band VHF will have higher operating costs than lo-band VHF, right? In the analog world, lo-band maxes out at 50kw, while hi-band is 316kw for similar (not identical) coverage. VHF, however, does have much lower operating costs than UHF.
2) Aren't most areas saturated with coverage of hi-band VHF channels already, thus the markets are already full of channels? If you look at a place like Philadelphia, they've got channel 11 stations both north (New York) and south (Baltimore) of them. Even in as small a market as I'm in (Rochester/Austin/Albert Lea/Mason City) there are no available channels from 2-13 with more than a 20 mile buffer. When I had a VHF antenna, I got signals on every VHF channel except 7, and that's because I'm right in between two channel 7s that are just over 100 miles out. A very low powered station might squeeze in there, like a translator, but nothing that could come close to covering this market. It seems to me that stations that had an analog hi-band VHF channel, and those who got hi-band VHF digital stations, are the only ones who are going to win in the hi-band VHF lottery. Even some of them might lose out because of restricted power requirements to prevent overlapping other areas. (For instance, WHTM in Harrisburg, PA is on digital channel 12, but they're at low power. WHYY in Wilmington, DE will trump them from increasing their power, which means they must select a very reduced coverage area or go back to their UHF channel.)
I'm not saying people won't fight for those hi-VHF channels. I just don't see many markets "filling up" with new stations in the gaps because there *are* no gaps in most areas. Maybe somebody in the middle of North Dakota will suddenly win the frequency lottery, but the rest of the country is "full up."
OTA reception issues:
Just moved to 53005 a suburb of Milwaukee, WI which is no more than 10 miles west of the towers for the local stations. They span from 85* to 98*. I bought a 4228 and ran 100ft of R6 from the attic of a two story house to the stb on the 1st floor. The full 100ft won't be necessary when I find the location i'll need for the 4228, but I want to wait before shortening.
Two days ago I was not able to bring in a signal for most of the channels, and only hit-or-miss on 2 or 3 of them. Yesterday, we had clear skys, I was able to bring all the channels some at 100%.
I have yet to dial in the ideal location for the 4228 in the attic, but with that and then shortening the cable accordingly give me more consistant reception?
I guess i know the answer... try it and see, but I was looking for tips/advice.
thanks
Originally posted by Xesdeeni
Are any of the stations actually publishing their decisions at this point? I'd love to know how many are stying put on UHF, and how many are moving back to VHF.
Xesdeeni
Yep, they have to file with the FCC pretty soon (I think by the 10th, but there might be an extension). In Chicagoland, WYCC-TV 20/WYCC-DT 21 elected to stay on 21. WBBM-TV 2/WBBM-DT 3 has decided to exercise the option to not pick between 2 VHF-lo assignments and to see what opens up in the 2nd round, since there is a nice channel 20 assignment open already. :) Many other good stations will open up in the area as well.
Can someone try to explain the physics behind these issues I'm having with reception? Here's the list of stuff again:
ChannelMaster 3678 w/7777 preamp
Voom HD receiver
RG-6 Cable straight from preamp into box. (works now!)
So I get Ch 4.1 (32) out of Minneapolis (about 60 miles) pretty consistently and 75% of the time get 11.1 (35).
The one I really want is FOX 9.1 (26) but the signal pattern goes like this. 81% for a few seconds, then 0% for a few seconds, then repeat. One night (the night before the championship games) I got a VERY good signal from FOX after I did some tweaking with cable length and such, but since have had the aforementioned situation.
If someone could explain the most likely reason for the on/off signal I might have a better idea of how to tackle the problem, but if the concensus is that it's hopeless I'll just wait for FOX out of Eau Claire to go HD. (should be sometime in the next 15 years....:mad: )
Originally posted by atye
Can someone try to explain the physics behind these issues I'm having with reception? Here's the list of stuff again:
ChannelMaster 3678 w/7777 preamp
Voom HD receiver
RG-6 Cable straight from preamp into box. (works now!)
So I get Ch 4.1 (32) out of Minneapolis (about 60 miles) pretty consistently and 75% of the time get 11.1 (35).
The one I really want is FOX 9.1 (26) but the signal pattern goes like this. 81% for a few seconds, then 0% for a few seconds, then repeat. One night (the night before the championship games) I got a VERY good signal from FOX after I did some tweaking with cable length and such, but since have had the aforementioned situation.
If someone could explain the most likely reason for the on/off signal I might have a better idea of how to tackle the problem, but if the concensus is that it's hopeless I'll just wait for FOX out of Eau Claire to go HD. (should be sometime in the next 15 years....:mad: )
You're right on the edge of their coverage area. See http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT509417.html
Your best chance with a single antenna would be either a 4228 or DB8 assuming you don't use a rotor(these antennas are stressful on a rotor). If you use a rotor, the XG91 would improve things but probably not as much at ch. 26. At channel 26, the 4228 has about 3dbd more gain than the 3678. The DB8 may do even a little better. These are both UHF antennas and so you'll give up VHF performance but if you need VHF you could add a VHF antenna separately.
It's always possible that other factors (primarily co-channel interference) may be at work here. Co-channel interference is a bigger problem than some would like to admit right now because of all the analog/digitals going at once. In any case, your best shot will be a higher performance antenna but it's no guarantee unfortunately right now even though you're within the coverage area.
sregener 02-04-05, 04:34 PM Originally posted by atye
ChannelMaster 3678 w/7777 preamp
Voom HD receiver
RG-6 Cable straight from preamp into box. (works now!)
So I get Ch 4.1 (32) out of Minneapolis (about 60 miles) pretty consistently and 75% of the time get 11.1 (35).
The one I really want is FOX 9.1 (26) but the signal pattern goes like this. 81% for a few seconds, then 0% for a few seconds, then repeat.
...If someone could explain the most likely reason for the on/off signal I might have a better idea of how to tackle the problem, but if the concensus is that it's hopeless I'll just wait for FOX out of Eau Claire to go HD. (should be sometime in the next 15 years....:mad: )
I've already told you that a UHF-only antenna should be better. That hasn't changed.
I'm a little further from the Minneapolis/St.Paul stations than you. (I'm at 75+ miles.) WCCO (32) is my rock, my shelter in stormy weather, the one station that almost always comes in perfectly, even when every other station is going haywire. I've had some bad nights with them, and the middle of the day in summer is also rough, but otherwise WCCO-DT locks for me all the time.
KARE (35) is a little less common for me than some others, but that's primarily because I have a digital station within 20 miles of me on channel 36. That strong signal has to have some negative impact on me.
KMSP (26), your target station, isn't my most reliable, not by a long shot. They seem to come and go. I've had days where the picture was nearly breakup free, and then other days where the picture is all but unwatchable. This seems to match what you say you're getting now.
Things you can do to improve reception:
- move the antenna higher (mine is on a 54' tower)
- get a better UHF antenna (DB8, 91XG are both excellent choices)
- move to a new address
If you look at analog stations like 23 and 29, you'll probably see a lot of snow in the picture. This is a symptom of weak signals, and any of the above solutions could help you with it, but nothing is going to "fix" it so that you get the perfection you want. I've tried everything short of moving and haven't gotten the perfection I was after. Once you're over the radio horizon, you're a prisoner to the weather, the leaves, the troposphere, and a lot of other things that are hard to predict and even harder to deal with when things go poorly. You just have to take the good days when they come, and hope for the best.
You should be able to get the next two years Super Bowls in high def. WQOW-DT is on the air, and their signal should reach you, and they're HD capable today. WKBT-DT is supposed to go full-power this spring, and they're also HD capable today. That gets you ABC next year and CBS the year after that. What it doesn't get you is NFC football in the here and now.
WEUX will go HD some day. Fox is putting a lot of pressure on affiliates, and they're providing a lot of the equipment to get things done, so I would expect them to be good to go in HD by 2008.
tkoppes 02-04-05, 04:35 PM I live in Bellevue, IA...approx 63mi from Orion towers. THe KLJB engineer said I should be able to pick up the HD signals but so far no luck. Tried a channelmaster 4221 and a Winegard 8072 with appropriate pre-amps. Tested analog signal from Winegard into a seperate TV. Got a reasonable signal. I have an Hughes HD10-250 reciever. Was able to get a peak of 16 on the OTA tuner off of the 4221 (and a spike peak of 100 when I moved it), but I'm not sure what caused the spike. No steady signal bar at all. Couldn't get any digital signal off of the Winegard. Any suggestions or ideas??? Any one else having success in this area?
phatboykim 02-04-05, 05:18 PM Hi,
has anyone used this antenna?
http://www.antennasdirect.com/IndoorAntennas.htm
It's the PF7 picture antenna - UHF.
My wife is not happy with the silver sensor (can you believe it? she thinks THAT is an eye sore!!) so I'm just exploring options.
To be honest, it doesn't look like it'll be any good, but hey, neither does the silver sensor!
Thanks!
itsmyforte 02-04-05, 06:22 PM i am about to put up a second antenna (cm4221). my question is how far from each antenna should i put my combiner (cm#0549)? do i run as short of coax from each as possible or should i combine them before after i run the coax down each pole to the side of the house?
does each lead need to be the same length or as close to it as possible?
thanks,
J
Originally posted by tkoppes
I live in Bellevue, IA...approx 63mi from Orion towers. THe KLJB engineer said I should be able to pick up the HD signals but so far no luck. Tried a channelmaster 4221 and a Winegard 8072 with appropriate pre-amps. Tested analog signal from Winegard into a seperate TV. Got a reasonable signal. I have an Hughes HD10-250 reciever. Was able to get a peak of 16 on the OTA tuner off of the 4221 (and a spike peak of 100 when I moved it), but I'm not sure what caused the spike. No steady signal bar at all. Couldn't get any digital signal off of the Winegard. Any suggestions or ideas??? Any one else having success in this area?
At 63 miles, you need the big guns. All the Davenport digitals are UHF and mostly high UHF at that which would make you a perfect candidate for the xg91. A rotor would help for precise aiming and also to be able to point to other markets. The CM 7777 preamp would be on the short list of appropriate preamps. I'm not surprised you haven't had much success with medium range antennas.
Originally posted by itsmyforte
i am about to put up a second antenna (cm4221). my question is how far from each antenna should i put my combiner (cm#0549)? do i run as short of coax from each as possible or should i combine them before after i run the coax down each pole to the side of the house?
does each lead need to be the same length or as close to it as possible?
thanks,
J
The CM 0549 is a VHF/UHF diplexer. Assuming you're not preamping the signals anyway, it doesn't really matter where you diplex them. You'll use less cable overall if you diplex them up at the mast. The relative lengths don't matter as you are combining differing signals/frequencies. The "exact length" thing only comes into play when you are stacking identical antennas.
itsmyforte 02-04-05, 06:59 PM Originally posted by cpcat
The CM 0549 is a VHF/UHF diplexer. Assuming you're not preamping the signals anyway, it doesn't really matter where you diplex them. You'll use less cable overall if you diplex them up at the mast. The relative lengths don't matter as you are combining differing signals/frequencies. The "exact length" thing only comes into play when you are stacking identical antennas.
thanks, i will see how it goes tomorrow :D
Originally posted by ElVee
I'm going to re-think the whole thing.
I got started thinking about all this because the original Wingard GS-1100 I received from DirecTv doesn't pick up all of my locals (as it's currently pointed). The bulk of my locals are at either 70 degrees and 116 degrees. I have my antenna pointed at about 90 degrees. At this position, I do not pick up my local CBS (2) and ABC (7) stations. I can get my NBC (4), FOX (on 38-4 instead of 5), UPN (on 38-3 instead of 9) and WB (11). If I move the antenna slightly towards 70 degrees, I can get the local CBS and if I move it slightly towards 116 degrees, I can get the local ABC. This is when I decided to try a rotator. Then I thought, as long as I'm getting a rotator, let me try to pull in some stations from further away with a better antenna.
To make a long story short, I'm going to mount the rotator with the original Wingard and see how that works first. If that works well, then great. I'll return the CM2671. If not, then I'll have to make a decision to either try the CM3671 or return it for some thing else.
Just an update. I installed the rotator with the original Winegard GS-1100. I'm going to send back the CM3671. So far, this combo is working well. I may consider some of the smaller UHF antenna's I've seen mentioned here.
Thanks to all for the great advice.
COLAVSFANINNWIA 02-05-05, 02:38 AM Ok, I got a good one here that *hopefully* someone can help. I got an HDTV (Samsung 30 in WS, built in ATSC) in a basement, with a 40 db gain RCA indoor antenna, which most of the time sits right on the top of the tv. I get my ABC, CBS, and PBS HD feeds just fine. If I move the antenna around the room, I get the local NBC & WB DT stations (not in HD yet) fine also. Now w/ the SuperBowl in 2 days, the problem lies w/ the local FOX-HD station. All my others are in UHF, FOX-DT is on vhf. I also live 25 miles from the LP-tower. According to the FCC webiste, I am at least 5 miles within the fringe of the signal. I tried replacing the whips w/ FM antenna wire (which I found to be better than normal rabbit ears for VHF) to get amplification behind the wire. But I could not get the whips off w/o breaking the thing apart. I have come to the conclusion that I will be SOL on getting the game in HD. I cannot put up any antenna outside(although I did a test run of mine outside about one story high, but that didnt work), nor have I found any indoor/outdoor antenna small enough and as powerful as the one I have now. I have also put it as high as I could possibly put it. Any tips on possibly improving reception? Any other comments/concernes will be taken into consideration also.~ColAvsFan
Why not use an outdoor antenna? According to the FCC, anybody, even renters, can put up an outdoor antenna (with some size restrictions) as long as it is attached to the structure they own or rent, regardless of association or community rules. Search this forum and you will certainly turn up the link, or go to the FCC website.
sregener 02-05-05, 09:06 AM Originally posted by COLAVSFANINNWIA
All my others are in UHF, FOX-DT is on vhf. I also live 25 miles from the LP-tower. According to the FCC webiste, I am at least 5 miles within the fringe of the signal.
Search back a few pages in this thread where people talk about making their own VHF dipoles using 300-Ohm wire. That should be good enough, and small enough, for you to temporarily mount it outside during the Super Bowl.
Amplification doesn't help very much for VHF, and 40db is overload for any antenna out there. I'm amazed it works for you at all.
krash01us 02-05-05, 10:27 AM I live in Hilton, NY (about 15 miles northwest of Rochesterand the towers) and I am getting ready to install an OTA antenna to pick up the locals in HD. When I enter my address at antennaweb.org it pulls up all the analog stations and 3 digital stations 21-1(WXXI), 31-1(FOX), and 51(PAX) within the purple and violet zones. If I put in my friends address about a 1/4 mile away it brings up 8-1(CBS), 10-1(ABC), 13-1(NBC).
Does this mean I won't be able to pick up 8,10,13 in digital or could it just be a glitch at antenna web? I can pick up an analog signal from these systems. Any help would be appreciated.
I apologize if this was discussed somewhere before. I did some scanning and couldn't find anything
Krash
phatboykim 02-05-05, 12:40 PM No comments on the PF-7?
My other alternative is to put the Silver Sensor in the adjacent bedroom, run 30 feet or so of cable, drill 2 small holes in the drywall and pull it through behind the system to hook up to the STB.
Does 30 feet of cable require a pre-amp (or signal booster or sorts) or should the signal still be solid?
If so, what brand is recommended? I hear the Ratshack signal boosters are garbage.
Thanks!!
Originally posted by phatboykim
Hi,
has anyone used this antenna?
http://www.antennasdirect.com/IndoorAntennas.htm
It's the PF7 picture antenna - UHF.
My wife is not happy with the silver sensor (can you believe it? she thinks THAT is an eye sore!!) so I'm just exploring options.
To be honest, it doesn't look like it'll be any good, but hey, neither does the silver sensor!
Thanks!
Xesdeeni 02-05-05, 02:19 PM Originally posted by Rack
Yep, they have to file with the FCC pretty soon (I think by the 10th, but there might be an extension).Thanks for the info. Is there a link to a site (presumably the FCC's) that has the filings? I've searched the FCC, but I can't seem to find the right terms.
Xesdeeni
mainemojo 02-05-05, 02:45 PM I'm a Time Warner customer just south of Portland, Maine, where the CBS affiliate is a Sinclair station, so CBS HD via cable isn't a possibility. According to antennaweb, I'm 24.2 miles from the CBS tower. We're on the coast, and there are no mountains in the area, although there are some tall trees in the path. Can anyone tell me if the Silver Sensor should be able to deliver this station's signal?
Bill Johnson 02-05-05, 03:36 PM Does this mean I won't be able to pick up 8,10,13 in digital or could it just be a glitch at antenna web? I can pick up an analog signal from these systems. Any help would be appreciated.
krash, you should go to the below website for detailed info on Rochester and, pending Rochesterites chiming in here, you may have some trouble. 8-1 apparently doesn't do HD and operates at less than a pitiable 2 kW of power presently. 10-1 does HD but only has 38 kW of power. 13-1 does HD and has 8.7 kW of power. All 3 are slated to ultimately get more power, but the FCC website indicates all 3 have an antenna at ground level. Am not sure what this means so you need to carefully check out the below site for more definitive info.
http://www.rochesterhdtv.com/viewtopic.php?t=26&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
krash01us 02-05-05, 05:58 PM Bill - thanks for the info, I started to work with some of the Rochester people on your link today. I actually grabbed a Terk HDTVa indoor today at RS to do some prelim runs before I went full bore. To my suprise I was able to get 10-1, 13-1, 31-1 without a glitch and 8-1 with some moving. I'll probably leave this way at least for the SB and start doing some more research on an outdoor one.
Delerium 02-05-05, 08:09 PM cpcat,
Thanks for your response. I have decided on the 91xg or the DB8. I have just one last question before I put in my order to antennasdirect...
As most of my channels are below 40, does the DB8 seem to be the best option or would the 91xg with a rotor still be best? If you, or anyone else who would like to put their 2 cents in, lived in my area (83201), what would you buy. Basically, I am asking all you experts out there to make my final decision for me.
Thanks to all of you who have helped me with my questions.
Originally posted by Delerium
cpcat,
Thanks for your response. I have decided on the 91xg or the DB8. I have just one last question before I put in my order to antennasdirect...
As most of my channels are below 40, does the DB8 seem to be the best option or would the 91xg with a rotor still be best? If you, or anyone else who would like to put their 2 cents in, lived in my area (83201), what would you buy. Basically, I am asking all you experts out there to make my final decision for me.
Thanks to all of you who have helped me with my questions.
Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and punch in your Lat/Long coordinates in decimal form to see the exact bearings/distances to your digitals. A good place to find you lat/long is http://terraserver.microsoft.com/ just put in your address and then zoom in on your house.
I think you'll find you need a rotor (stations more than say 20 degrees apart). Assuming that's the case, I'd go with the XG91. You give up maybe a little on the lower channels but there's always a compromise. You could always stack two if you need to but I bet you won't.
shajoe44 02-06-05, 04:58 AM I need an antenna with RED-UHF coverage. Does anyone have a recomendation for this type. I live 15.7 miles from transmitter site and the station broadcasts at 15.6 kw erp.
Thanks
quarque 02-06-05, 02:29 PM Originally posted by shajoe44
I need an antenna with RED-UHF coverage. Does anyone have a recomendation for this type. I live 15.7 miles from transmitter site and the station broadcasts at 15.6 kw erp.
Thanks
If you have an absolute clear shot at the tower then a Channel Master 4221 is a popular choice. If you have trees to go through you may need a little more gain - CM 4248 or CM 4228. If you can't go with any of those outdoors you can try an attic mount. As a last resort, use an indoor unit like Zenith Silver Sensor.
tkoppes 02-06-05, 05:38 PM Originally posted by cpcat
At 63 miles, you need the big guns. All the Davenport digitals are UHF and mostly high UHF at that which would make you a perfect candidate for the xg91. A rotor would help for precise aiming and also to be able to point to other markets. The CM 7777 preamp would be on the short list of appropriate preamps. I'm not surprised you haven't had much success with medium range antennas.
Thanks,
WHo makes the xg91? Actually, I was able to pull in KLJB at 50% last night with the CM 4221 and CM 7775 pre amp. I am hoping that a jump to the 4228 and getting it in the air another 20' will make a big difference. The signal is back down to 30 or so today in foggy drizzle. Doubt I will be able to pull in Superbowl. BTW, what is advantage of 7777 over 7775?
Originally posted by tkoppes
Thanks,
WHo makes the xg91? Actually, I was able to pull in KLJB at 50% last night with the CM 4221 and CM 7775 pre amp. I am hoping that a jump to the 4228 and getting it in the air another 20' will make a big difference. The signal is back down to 30 or so today in foggy drizzle. Doubt I will be able to pull in Superbowl. BTW, what is advantage of 7777 over 7775?
http://www.antennasdirect.com/LongRangeAntennas.htm
In your case, no difference for the 7777 for now but the 7777 has vhf capability which could impact you in the future (some of the digitals may revert to vhf down the line).
COLAVSFANINNWIA 02-07-05, 12:08 AM Originally posted by mgtr
Why not use an outdoor antenna?
So I borrowed an outdoor antenna (no amp) and put it up 2 stories tall. Not even a "scent" of a FOX-DT feed. Had better luck w/ rabbit ears on ground level (no amp) inside, but still could not get it in strong enough to lock in the DT signal. So no SuperBowl in HD for me. I will have to wait for my fox station to go to full power whenever that is. :mad:
They replied in an email about 2 weeks prior that they "Don't know when or if they will be at full power on the DTV OTA feed." How crazy is that? I hope the boys at FOX national will push them a little harder.~ColAvsFan
Originally posted by COLAVSFANINNWIA
So I borrowed an outdoor antenna (no amp) and put it up 2 stories tall. Not even a "scent" of a FOX-DT feed. Had better luck w/ rabbit ears on ground level (no amp) inside, but still could not get it in strong enough to lock in the DT signal. So no SuperBowl in HD for me. I will have to wait for my fox station to go to full power whenever that is. :mad:
They replied in an email about 2 weeks prior that they "Don't know when or if they will be at full power on the DTV OTA feed." How crazy is that? I hope the boys at FOX national will push them a little harder.~ColAvsFan
From what market are your stations?
Help please.
My antenna is cm3018.
Here is my list of stations.
red - uhf WVLA 33 NBC BATON ROUGE LA 248° 34.2 33
red - uhf WGMB 44 FOX BATON ROUGE LA 248° 34.2 44
* red - uhf WGMB-DT 45.1 FOX BATON ROUGE LA 248° 34.2 45
red - uhf WLPB 27 PBS BATON ROUGE LA 251° 29.1 27
* red - vhf WBRZ-DT 2.1 ABC BATON ROUGE LA 241° 30.5 13
blue - vhf WAFB 9 CBS BATON ROUGE LA 250° 29.7 9
blue - uhf WLFT-CA 30 IND BATON ROUGE LA 246° 20.6 30
blue - vhf WBRZ 2 ABC BATON ROUGE LA 241° 30.5 2
* blue - uhf WLPB-DT 27.1 PBS BATON ROUGE LA 251° 29.1 25
*violet - uhf WAFB-DT 9.1 CBS BATON ROUGE LA 260° 26.6 46
My setup so far.
I'm using a hughes e86 stb.
I have the antenna pretty clear, with some far off trees in its path(half mile or so).
I can get regular vhf channels through the tv, but NOT the stb(call crazy looking). I can pick up the abc hd through the stb. No others as of yet.
My signal was weak on the analog UHF channels thruogh the tv and same crazy look through the stb.
I bought a radioshack preamp/amp over the weekend "just to see".
Made my UHF channels super through the tv, but still the same through the stb.
Why can't the STB make the analog channels perfect ? They are perfect through the tv.
I should be able to pickup all the other hdtv stations shouldn't I? They look to be about the same distance as the abc hd stations.
Is the radioshack preamp/amp just not good? and maybe I should try the channelmaster 7777?
Did I choose the wrong antenna to begin with? Would going to a cm3020 be a better choice?
I'm still stumbled why I can get great reception through the tv set on the vhf channels, and they are scrambled looking through the STB. Reasons?
Please offer some advice. Thanks!
philipgomez 02-07-05, 10:39 AM Did you try rescanning the channels once hooked up to the STB?
dswallow 02-07-05, 10:44 AM The Radio Shack preamps introduce a lot of noise into the signal; they are definitely not very good to use for digital reception.
I do think you should be able to get the analog stations through your receiver if you can pick them up through your TV; you're using exactly the same antenna coax, right? Just moving it between the receiver and the TV?
The 3018 isn't bad; and probably good enough for your needs; I'd look at a new preamp and a rotator like the CM9521A if you don't have a rotator now. It can be indispensable in fine tuning the aiming direction.
Thanks.
Yes, I tried rescanning several times. I'm just dumbfounded on why the stb has the analogs scrambled.
I have the wire through a splitter right now. But I've tried it straight to the STB, straight through to the stb without the preamp/amp with no luck for the analog stations.
I don't have all "gold" connectors either if that makes a difference.
No, no rotator yet. I figured that I'd try it without at 1st, and just manually turn it to get the 260degree station.
Is my thnking not correct in that a few degrees (3 or so) shouldn't make too much of difference for the other stations?
I'll return the radioshack thingie and order the cm7777.
Maybe the hughes just isn't a very good OTA receiver?
greywolf 02-07-05, 11:27 AM Originally posted by j-bo
Maybe the hughes just isn't a very good OTA receiver? It may be toasted. They are famous for dying from insufficient cooling capability if an auxiliary fan is not added.
Pokelahoma 02-07-05, 02:48 PM After trying 3 other antennas with different combinations of amps, filters and home run cables I now have all the OTA stations in the Tulsa area thanks to the CM 4228. This antenna is a miracle antenna as far as I am concerned. After wiring the 2 halves of the reflective screen together (as I saw recommended somewhere on the web) I have even been able to get the local ABC VHF CH 10 with no dropouts. I sent back my amps and filters. My thanks to those (cpcat) who recommended the 4228 on this forum.
Hi gurus of this forum,
I live in the SF Bay area and I am trying to get ota HDTV. Antennaweb.org tells me that I can only get 1 digital channel when I enter in my address. I have tried getting signal with a Terk antenna that I got from BB for $100 but I can't get a single channel. Is there still hope for me to get HD? Should I try another antenna? Any suggestion is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Newbie
Originally posted by by1234
Hi gurus of this forum,
I live in the SF Bay area and I am trying to get ota HDTV. Antennaweb.org tells me that I can only get 1 digital channel when I enter in my address. I have tried getting signal with a Terk antenna that I got from BB for $100 but I can't get a single channel. Is there still hope for me to get HD? Should I try another antenna? Any suggestion is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Newbie
Where in the SF Bay Area...It is a BIG place! Close cross-streets help.
Terk=Crap (most of the time).
Amend Rd and Valley View Rd in El Sobrante
Originally posted by j-bo
Help please.
My antenna is cm3018.
Here is my list of stations.
red - uhf WVLA 33 NBC BATON ROUGE LA 248° 34.2 33
red - uhf WGMB 44 FOX BATON ROUGE LA 248° 34.2 44
* red - uhf WGMB-DT 45.1 FOX BATON ROUGE LA 248° 34.2 45
red - uhf WLPB 27 PBS BATON ROUGE LA 251° 29.1 27
* red - vhf WBRZ-DT 2.1 ABC BATON ROUGE LA 241° 30.5 13
blue - vhf WAFB 9 CBS BATON ROUGE LA 250° 29.7 9
blue - uhf WLFT-CA 30 IND BATON ROUGE LA 246° 20.6 30
blue - vhf WBRZ 2 ABC BATON ROUGE LA 241° 30.5 2
* blue - uhf WLPB-DT 27.1 PBS BATON ROUGE LA 251° 29.1 25
*violet - uhf WAFB-DT 9.1 CBS BATON ROUGE LA 260° 26.6 46
My setup so far.
I'm using a hughes e86 stb.
I have the antenna pretty clear, with some far off trees in its path(half mile or so).
I can get regular vhf channels through the tv, but NOT the stb(call crazy looking). I can pick up the abc hd through the stb. No others as of yet.
My signal was weak on the analog UHF channels thruogh the tv and same crazy look through the stb.
I bought a radioshack preamp/amp over the weekend "just to see".
Made my UHF channels super through the tv, but still the same through the stb.
Why can't the STB make the analog channels perfect ? They are perfect through the tv.
I should be able to pickup all the other hdtv stations shouldn't I? They look to be about the same distance as the abc hd stations.
Is the radioshack preamp/amp just not good? and maybe I should try the channelmaster 7777?
Did I choose the wrong antenna to begin with? Would going to a cm3020 be a better choice?
I'm still stumbled why I can get great reception through the tv set on the vhf channels, and they are scrambled looking through the STB. Reasons?
Please offer some advice. Thanks!
Until you can get similar analog reception through the STB as through the TV you are forced to assume either something is amiss with the STB or the connection to it. Maybe try an old VCR or something else with a tuner inside it. If the analog reception is o.k., then I'd suspect the STB as the culprit.
Originally posted by by1234
Amend Rd and Valley View Rd in El Sobrante
Looks like you are on the wrong side of San Pablo Ridge to get Sutro. Plug your address into TERRASERVER (http://terraserver.microsoft.com/) , and checkout the topographical view.
i
Does that mean I won't be able to get HD ota no matter what?
dswallow 02-07-05, 06:11 PM Originally posted by by1234
Amend Rd and Valley View Rd in El Sobrante
Perhaps there are terrain issues which limit things for you, but this is what I find:
View full report (http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=37%2E965904&longitude=%2D122%2E282311&magnetic_north=14%2E8666666&range=60&sort=distance&show_expired=False&show_construction=False&show_analog=False&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations)
Digital Television Stations (including Special Temporary Authority)
STATION NETWORK CHANNEL DIRECTION DISTANCE ERP HAAT CITY/LICENSEE
KPIX-DT CBS UHF 29 197.6° 17.18mi 1,000.00kW 1,316f t (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) CBS BROADCASTING INC.
KFSF-DT TFT UHF 34 197.6° 17.24mi 150.00kW 1,375f t (VALLEJO, CA) TELEFUTURA SAN FRANCISCO LLC
KCNS-DT IND UHF 39 197.6° 17.24mi 468.00kW 1,404f t (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) WRAY, INC.
KCSM-DT PBS UHF 43 197.6° 17.24mi 536.00kW 1,404f t (SAN MATEO, CA) SAN MATEO COUNTY COMMUNITY COLLEGE DISTRICT
KBHK-DT UPN UHF 45 197.6° 17.24mi 400.00kW 1,463f t (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) VIACOM TELEVISION STATIONS GROUP OF SAN FRANCISCO INC.
KTVU-DT FOX UHF 56 197.6° 17.24mi 1,000.00kW 1,421f t (OAKLAND, CA) KTVU PARTNERSHIP
KRON-DT IND UHF 57 197.6° 17.24mi 1,000.00kW 1,463f t (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) YOUNG BROADCASTING OF SAN FRANCISCO, INC.
KBWB WB UHF 19 197.6° 17.26mi 383.00kW 1 ,371ft (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) KBWB LICENSE, INC.
KGO-DT ABC UHF 24 197.6° 17.26mi 561.00kW 1,434 ft (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) KGO TELEVISION, INC.
KQED PBS UHF 30 197.6° 17.26mi 777.00kW 1 ,434ft (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) KQED, INC.
KFTL-DT UHF 62 91.4° 20.69mi 300.00kW 3,045f t (STOCKTON, CA) TELEFUTURA SACRAMENTO LLC
KTNC-DT AZT UHF 63 91.4° 20.69mi 24.10kW 3,091f t (CONCORD, CA) KTNC LICENSE, LLC
KTLN-DT IND UHF 47 292.3° 21.11mi 230.00kW 1,319f t (NOVATO, CA) CHRISTIAN COMMUNICATIONS CHICAGOLAND
KTSF-DT IND UHF 27 188.4° 20.93mi 220.00kW 1,312f t (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) LINCOLN BROADCASTING COMPANY, A CALIFORNIA LP
KKPX-DT PAX UHF 41 188.4° 20.93mi 1,000.00kW 1,371f t (SAN JOSE, CA) PAXSON SAN JOSE LICENSE, INC.
KRCB-DT PBS UHF 23 314.3° 30.82mi 4.70kW 2,065f t (COTATI, CA) RURAL CALIFORNIA BROADCASTING CORP.
KSTS Telemundo UHF 49 130.1° 39.30mi 257.00kW 2 ,257ft (SAN JOSE, CA) NBC TELEMUNDO LICENSE CO.
KSTS-DT Telemundo UHF 49 130.1° 39.30mi 200.00kW 2,257f t (SAN JOSE, CA) NBC TELEMUNDO LICENSE CO.
KDTV-DT Univision UHF 51 130.1° 39.30mi 476.30kW 2,300f t (SAN FRANCISCO, CA) KDTV LICENSE PARTNERSHIP, G.P.
KICU-DT IND UHF 52 130.4° 40.10mi 251.00kW 2,192f t (SAN JOSE, CA) KTVU PARTNERSHIP
KXTV ABC UHF 61 50.9° 46.51mi 1,000.00kW 1 ,946ft (SACRAMENTO, CA) KXTV, INC.
KOVR-DT CBS UHF 25 50.9° 46.52mi 1,000.00kW 1,949f t (STOCKTON, CA) SCI-SACRAMENTO LICENSEE, LLC
KCRA-DT NBC UHF 35 50.3° 46.72mi 687.00kW 1,516f t (SACRAMENTO, CA) KCRA HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
KCRA-DT NBC UHF 35 50.3° 46.72mi 1,000.00kW 1,516f t (SACRAMENTO, CA) KCRA HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
NEW UHF 43 50.3° 46.72mi 50.00kW 1 ,096ft (SACRAMENTO, CA) FAMILY STATIONS, INC.
KVIE-DT PBS UHF 53 48.3° 47.24mi 360.00kW 1,857f t (SACRAMENTO, CA) KVIE, INC.
KTXL FOX UHF 55 48.3° 47.25mi 290.00kW 1 ,906ft (SACRAMENTO, CA) CHANNEL 40, INC.
KMAX-DT UPN UHF 21 49.3° 47.77mi 7.20kW 989f t (SACRAMENTO, CA) UPN STATIONS GROUP INC.
KQCA-DT WB UHF 46 49.3° 47.77mi 385.90kW 1,903f t (STOCKTON, CA) KCRA HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
KQCA-DT WB UHF 46 49.3° 47.77mi 385.90kW 1,903f t (STOCKTON, CA) KCRA HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
KQCA-DT WB UHF 46 49.3° 47.77mi 0.77kW 1,391f t (STOCKTON, CA) KCRA HEARST-ARGYLE TELEVISION, INC.
KFTY-DT IND UHF 54 324.0° 52.16mi 30.00kW 3,045f t (SANTA ROSA, CA) ACKERLEY MEDIA GROUP, INC.
Data compiled from FCC database (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/databases/cdbs/) on 1/22/2005.
Bill Johnson 02-07-05, 06:33 PM Does that mean I won't be able to get HD ota no matter what?
by1234, pending more responses from HD gurus which I'm not, if I lived in El Sobrante and the HD total fanatic that I am, I'd do the following:
1. Put the bookmark for antennaweb.org in the not to be opened file. (It says my address can only get 2 digital stations when I can get about 10 rock solid 24/7.)
2. Take the Terk antenna back to BB for refund.
3. Go to Radio Shack and buy a #15-2160 antenna for about $25 (The RS at Pinole Vista Ctr. should have it.)
4. Take the antenna to my roof and run an RG6 cable from it directly into my STB (or TV internal tuner).
4. If still nothing, return antenna to RS for refund and go to No. 5.
5. Order a CM 4221 from Warren Electronics on the web for about $35 incl. S&H and I should have in a few days. Then do #4 again.
6. If still nothing, I'd probably eat the $35 and consider other options longer term, such as putting up a 40 or 50 ft. tower. But hopefully, I've picked up some digital stations by now and want to think about permanently putting the antenna on the roof or preferably trying the attic. Then I'd look to running the RG6 through my house to the TV/STB.
Thanks for the suggestion. Do you think a Silver Sensor would help short of getting an external antenna?
Bill Johnson 02-07-05, 07:01 PM Thanks for the suggestion. Do you think a Silver Sensor would help short of getting an external antenna?
I've had no experience with a SS since my reception involves huge distances. Perhaps someone else can chime in here, but I've seen high praise for the SS and it may be worth a try.
Originally posted by by1234
Thanks for the suggestion. Do you think a Silver Sensor would help short of getting an external antenna? I've got a SS and get stations up to 50 miles away, but that one is pretty wide open to me. If you have significant obstacles in your way it's really uncertain. But given your situation, I'd try everything I could to get it to work.
Originally posted by by1234
Thanks for the suggestion. Do you think a Silver Sensor would help short of getting an external antenna?
Have you taken a look at the topo for your address at Terraserver? You are on the East side of San Pablo Ridge I think Sutro would be tough unless you are near the top. El Sobrante is quite hilly; are you on top of one or down in one of the valleys? Can you see Sutro Tower from your roof? If not, I might suggest you try for some of the channels to your East (See Dswallow's post a few posts back). Do you have a compass? Knowing where you are in relation to the obstructions around you are key to making this work. I wouldn't rule out an indoor antenna; however, I'd be suprised if you could get anything without going outdoors and up! I just had to put a 30' pole in the ground to pickup Sutro from Cupertino. Now that I have...I couldn't be happier!!!
COLAVSFANINNWIA 02-08-05, 01:01 AM Originally posted by cpcat
From what market are your stations?
Sioux Falls South Dakota, KTTW-DT (fox) broadcasts at an ERP of .022 kW. If my math is correct, is that not 22 watts? I think that is BS even for a STA. I also think the FCC website is wrong about the range of that tower.~ColAvsFan
Here is a post at our local HDTV forum:
KTTW-DT is only 4 miles away from me at 126 degrees (according to antennaweb.org). and I still can't get the signal. My antenana is indoors going into a built-in tuner. I get KDLT-DT which is over 14 miles away with more buildings in that direction. I think the problem is just simply...FOX is on extremely low power.
dswallow 02-08-05, 04:08 AM Originally posted by by1234
Thanks for the suggestion. Do you think a Silver Sensor would help short of getting an external antenna?
A typical attic install can block 99% of the signal reaching the antenna because of the walls or roof. An indoor antenna can be just as bad, or sometimes a little better if there are windows along the path to the transmitter instead of walls.
A properly mounted outdoor antenna is almost a must for fringe or troublesome reception locations to give you the best chance of getting what you want.
I would try the Winegard SS-1000 or SS-2000 SquareShooter antenna long before trying any indoor antenna if you are able to mount it somewhere outside. And the SquareShooter is very compact at 16"x16"x4". At only 18 miles to most of your stations and all of them being UHF, the SquareShooter should work for you, provided terrain is not an issue.
slapshot 02-08-05, 11:01 AM quote:Originally posted by j-bo
Maybe the hughes just isn't a very good OTA receiver?
It may be toasted. They are famous for dying from insufficient cooling capability if an auxiliary fan is not added.[/QUOTE]
I have the Mitsubishi version of this STB. It is a defect in the receiver,mine does the same thing,analog OTA looks scrambled through the Mits,OTA digital is perfect. Went bad after a couple of years. I've learned to live with it,until I can get a replacement or a good deal from DTV.
Originally posted by imott
Have you taken a look at the topo for your address at Terraserver? You are on the East side of San Pablo Ridge I think Sutro would be tough unless you are near the top. El Sobrante is quite hilly; are you on top of one or down in one of the valleys? Can you see Sutro Tower from your roof? If not, I might suggest you try for some of the channels to your East (See Dswallow's post a few posts back). Do you have a compass? Knowing where you are in relation to the obstructions around you are key to making this work. I wouldn't rule out an indoor antenna; however, I'd be suprised if you could get anything without going outdoors and up! I just had to put a 30' pole in the ground to pickup Sutro from Cupertino. Now that I have...I couldn't be happier!!!
I tried a RS 15-1880 last night and was able to get 2 ABC channels (dropping in and out intermittently). I am about half way up the hill. I will try the Silver Sensor next since I don't want to push my luck trying to sneak a huge outdoor eyesore past my wife. ;) ....at least not yet.
I don't think east is an option for me since I am on the west side of the hill in the middle. The hill is directly blocking anything from the east.
Originally posted by by1234
I tried a RS 15-1880 last night and was able to get 2 ABC channels (dropping in and out intermittently). I am about half way up the hill. I will try the Silver Sensor next since I don't want to push my luck trying to sneak a huge outdoor eyesore past my wife. ;) ....at least not yet.
I don't think east is an option for me since I am on the west side of the hill in the middle. The hill is directly blocking anything from the east.
Check this one out...Not big at all! 36" tall x 20"wide x 4" deep. Channel Master 4221 (http://www.channelmaster.com/home.htm) About $45.
Acutally you can pick up a 4221(3021) from your local ACE Hardware for ~ $25
Slapshot et al,
Thanks for the input on the hughes STB. I rescanned a bunch of times. Checked the signal on some local digital stations which was at 100%, but the scan wouldn't pick it up!
Goin shoppin for an OTA receiver, rotator, and a CH7777.
Returning the r/shack preamp/amp.
Wife thinks I'm bozo.
I currently am using a Terk HDTVi (silver sensor knockoff with VHF rabbit ears). I get almost every channel. One station I can't get the 3rd subchannel (I get 8.1 and 8.2, but can't get 8.3). The other 4.1 won't come in at all, but I can get another station in the same direction that is further away.
Will adding any kind of amplifier help? If so, any suggestions on what kind and where to get it?
sregener 02-09-05, 02:40 PM Originally posted by Platup
One station I can't get the 3rd subchannel (I get 8.1 and 8.2, but can't get 8.3). The other 4.1 won't come in at all, but I can get another station in the same direction that is further away.
Amplifiers and indoor antennas almost never mix well.
No amplifier or antenna upgrade is going to get you 8.3. If you're getting a solid picture on 8.1 or 8.2, the problem is either that your receiver isn't properly decoding the signal (possible,) or more likely that the station doesn't intend for viewers to use 8.3 and it's there as a placeholder. The entire 19Mbps ATSC stream has to be decoded to figure out the information in 8.1 or 8.2, which means that the problem with 8.3 isn't signal strength or signal quality.
Thanks Sregener that helps.
It's most likely the receiver. I'm currently using a Fusion 3 in a HTPC. If I use the same antenna with my dish reciver I get everything including 8.3 and 4.1. With the fusion 8.3 has come in before, but goes in and out almost like a week signal, but 8.1 will be fine. In fact, sometimes I get 8.2 on 8.3 and vice versa.
greenknight 02-09-05, 03:32 PM Noticed a setup a few blocks away where the ota antenna is mounted above the dish and appears to be delta wing shaped unit that is very thin.
Any idea what this is? The dish is a 3-lnb D* unit. Thanks
CHAS ZOSS 02-09-05, 04:09 PM Greenknight, I beleive it is a Channelmaster stealth ant.
Originally posted by greenknight
Noticed a setup a few blocks away where the ota antenna is mounted above the dish and appears to be delta wing shaped unit that is very thin.
Any idea what this is? The dish is a 3-lnb D* unit. Thanks
Channel Master Stealth (http://www.channelmaster.com/home.htm)
ericdwong 02-09-05, 04:39 PM I'm going to apologize in advance for posting this but I hope the mods do not delete it. This seems to be one of the best resources of knowledge on the net regarding antennas, so I'm going to ask this here, regarding antennas for FM for the car.
...my car came OEM with diversity reception, the only problem now is I
put in an aftermarket radio which uses only one antenna. The car uses 2
in the glass style antennas, one in the front of the car, one in the
rear of the car. I tried to use just one of the antennas with the
aftermarket radio and it seems as though the front antennas is good for
the upper 1/2 the FM band and the rear one is good for the lower 1/2.
If I plug both in at the same time, the reception is very "multipathy",
probably because both antennas are used at the same time effectively
picking up alot of garbage and cancellation. Overall, the reception is
very poor.
I was thinking if there is an externalbrain that could be used as the
diversity switcher. Is there such a thing?
Unfortunately I think this may have to be done in conjunction with the
radio since it is probably specific to which frequency the radio is
tuned in on but I'd though I'd ask anyway.
I tried one "solution" is one of these small amplified antennas that
tape onto the windshield. Unfortunately, the unit was alot smaller then
I had expected, it is probably 1/8 wavelength. It is
amplified but it works worse then the OEM antennas.
PS I'm looking into other antenna options as well. the car is a plastic
body on frame design (chevy corvette), it does not really have a large
"ground plane" so to speak, other then the frame of the car itself. I
really dont want to put any huge antennas on the outside of the car
either, although the convertible models did have a powered "whip" style
antennas I'm not too inclined to punch a hole in my car to put it on.
I'm thinking about boat antennas since many boats are of similar
composite body/metal frame designs.
The rear bumper of the car has a very large area behind it, I think I
may be able to fit even a 1/2 wavelength antenna back there, but
horizontally. Can anybody recommend either an antenna thats premade or
one that I can fabricate that will work well for my application?
Or, if someone can point me to the right direction on a FM enthusiast chat board?
toddr007 02-09-05, 09:19 PM Originally posted by sregener
You just did. Weak signals show up on analog as snow. Multipath shows up as ghosting. (Some people get both.) If you're getting snow but not ghosting, a weak signal is your problem, not multipath.
The solution for a weak signal is either a larger antenna (like the 4228) or a preamplifier. I'd go with the preamp, personally. Get one from Channel Master or Winegard that has less than 20db of gain. The top gain models might overload. There's no guarantee that this will work, so keep your receipts.
I just wanted to update what I've done to get things working for me. Since I didn't have time to go buy a decent amplifier (before the Superbowl that is), I decided to at least do what I could to minimize losses between the antenna and my TV. I mentioned in my original post that I was using the old cable that was up on the roof since I bought my house (over 12 years ago), and that I was going through a splitter since that was where the main cable (RG59?) joined the original antenna.
So I bought 50' of new RG6 and ran that straight from my antenna to the TV - and ...(cue drum roll please) the signal / noise ratio on almost every channel was improved by 6 to 10 dB, and the signal strength was up by 20% or so. I now can pick up all of the digital channels fine including the elusive channel 50 (KSTP) 5.1, and some of the weaker signals that hadn't been detected by previous scans (KTCI channel 17.1-17.5 on broadcasting on 16 with 50kW of ERP). Also the reception on high band VHF isn't bad at all. Only the low band VHF is a little bit snowy - but it's better than I would have expected with a UHF antenna (CM 4221). Besides - I wasn't really planning on watching much analog TV with this set anyway - at least with this antenna setup. So at least for me, paying attention to the cable and connections helped a lot.
Of course, this brings up a question. It's hard to tell what gained me the most - the elimination of the splitter or the new cable, but I have to assume at this point that the dielectric in the old coax has deteriorated over time. Does anyone have an estimate on how much or how fast that happens - or rather more simply - what is the life expectancy of coax? Is there a preferred brand or type that holds up better to exposure outdoors?
Thanks to this forum and especially thanks to sregener for your assistance getting me a little way up the learning curve and helping me understand the nature of my problems.
Todd
sregener 02-10-05, 10:01 AM Originally posted by toddr007
So I bought 50' of new RG6 and ran that straight from my antenna to the TV - and ...(cue drum roll please) the signal / noise ratio on almost every channel was improved by 6 to 10 dB, and the signal strength was up by 20% or so.
Of course, this brings up a question. It's hard to tell what gained me the most - the elimination of the splitter or the new cable, but I have to assume at this point that the dielectric in the old coax has deteriorated over time. Does anyone have an estimate on how much or how fast that happens - or rather more simply - what is the life expectancy of coax? Is there a preferred brand or type that holds up better to exposure outdoors?
Your splitter is capable of introducing a 3.5-4db loss, depending on its quality. 3db is a gain/loss of half the absolute signal strength.
Bad connectors can cause all sorts of problems. If you waterproof them, there's no reason for the cables to go bad. The middle of your RG59 was probably fine, but the connectors at the end rusted some and deteriorated over time. Really, it doesn't matter what kind of coax you use - the ends are the only possible point of breakdown due to weather. (You can, of course, run over the cable with your lawn mower or clip it with hedge trimmers, which would cause some loss in the middle of the cable...) Weather boots help.
Your average antenna has a lifespan of about 10 years, after which it starts breaking down itself because of rust. The connectors of the twin-lead alone can go bad. As a general rule, when you replace the antenna, you should replace all the outside connections as well.
Glad to hear you had success with such a simple solution.
Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Central NY (Utica/Syracuse)
Posts: 10
Attention Antenna Guru's
I live in ZIP 13323 approx 30-40 miles from the towers. Its hilly terrain here and im not at one of the highest elevations in the area. I have been messing with the DTV signals for the last year and have tried the following equipment/setup.
Zenith HDV420
Samsung 351
Samsung 165
Channel Master 4248, 4228
Winegard PR-9032
Channel Master 7777 pre-amp
Rooftop install with rotor ~ 35 ft above ground.
It appears that for my location the Yagi's work better than the bowtie, presumably due to multipath. I have not been sucessful with either of the Samsung's, they just cant lock and hold the signals.
The 420 with the Winegard has been pretty good on most channels. However, I still suffer from random dropouts and pixellation. I recently picked up an LG4200A receiver and its pretty good except it completely rejects one of the stations that I used to get with the 420.
I am considering a different antenna, perhaps the DAT-75, JBX-21, or XG91. I was hoping that one of these designs may just be that much better than the Winegard to allow for better success. I really cant get any more height without erecting a tower.
Could someone that has used one of these other antennas tell me if they think this would be a worthwhile upgrade. And if so, where to purchase the european antennas. I know where to get the XG91.
Thank You
sregener 02-10-05, 12:08 PM Originally posted by cjhrph
Could someone that has used one of these other antennas tell me if they think this would be a worthwhile upgrade. And if so, where to purchase the european antennas. I know where to get the XG91.
Last question first:
http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/home/homepage.jsp
It's hard to say if it would be worthwhile or not. I assume you've read my 91XG review (www.geocities.com/figbert/antennasdirect91xg.html) and so you've seen that I still haven't gotten completely reliable long-distance reception. Sadly, once you're below the radio horizon, more antenna makes a difference, but it's a subtle one.
The PR-9032 is an excellent antenna, over 114" long. The 91XG is 21" shorter. Length matters, but only on higher channel numbers. Once you get below channel 32, you're really using a corner reflector rather than a yagi. (Exception: some yaigs are tuned for channels lower than 69, but no "regular" UHF antenna is.) And looking at the corner reflector for the 9032, I think the 91XG's is better.
I think the difference is probably going to end up being subtle. You'll still get breakups, but they won't be quite so common, and they won't be as disturbing. Whether it's worth it to you to spend that kind of money for a minimal improvement is up to you.
More likely, once the next chipsets come on the market, like the one just announced at CEA by Samsung that is supposed to be "the bomb" with weak signals, an upgraded receiver will solve the issues. There really isn't too much difference between the 3rd (420HDV) and 4th (LG 4200A) receivers for weak signals. Their primary benefits were for multipath.
The best thing you could do is add some height to your installation. I know that means a tower, but that gives you the best shot at success. A doubling of antenna height is worth about 20db, which is more gain than the biggest, baddest antenna in the universe compared to a UHF loop.
All of this assumes, of course, that your cabling is quality (RG-6 or better, shielded) and all of your connectors are good (have you tried replacing the balun?) and you have no splits in your line (splitters are bad.)
Another guy just last week reported replacing the balun on his PR-9032 and all his reception problems went away...
Originally posted by cjhrph
Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Central NY (Utica/Syracuse)
Posts: 10
Attention Antenna Guru's
I live in ZIP 13323 approx 30-40 miles from the towers. Its hilly terrain here and im not at one of the highest elevations in the area. I have been messing with the DTV signals for the last year and have tried the following equipment/setup.
Zenith HDV420
Samsung 351
Samsung 165
Channel Master 4248, 4228
Winegard PR-9032
Channel Master 7777 pre-amp
Rooftop install with rotor ~ 35 ft above ground.
It appears that for my location the Yagi's work better than the bowtie, presumably due to multipath. I have not been sucessful with either of the Samsung's, they just cant lock and hold the signals.
The 420 with the Winegard has been pretty good on most channels. However, I still suffer from random dropouts and pixellation. I recently picked up an LG4200A receiver and its pretty good except it completely rejects one of the stations that I used to get with the 420.
I am considering a different antenna, perhaps the DAT-75, JBX-21, or XG91. I was hoping that one of these designs may just be that much better than the Winegard to allow for better success. I really cant get any more height without erecting a tower.
Could someone that has used one of these other antennas tell me if they think this would be a worthwhile upgrade. And if so, where to purchase the european antennas. I know where to get the XG91.
Thank You
In my experience, the DAT75 would provide you with a small but significant improvement pretty much over the entire UHF band. Whether it would be enough, I don't know. The XG91 seems to be by all indications very comparable to the DAT75 but I've never had one myself.
Have you tried different heights of the antenna within the limits of your installation? Sometimes, lower is better (in my case it is). Assuming you have already, your options would be staying with a single antenna and upgrading vs. stacking. Horizontally stacked PR9032's I can tell you will be better than a single DAT75 but not as good as stacked 75's. Stacking horizontally will not only increase gain but narrow beamwidth which helps with multipath and co-channel interference.
If you decide to stack and need help, PM me and I'll be glad to help all I can. I've attached a pic of my stack when I had the PR9032's up.
The balun.. Ill bet mines crap. And it may have been compromised with humidity/water over the winter. Ill try replacing it with a quality balun and re cutting the connections up there.
Who knows what and where the best balun for the 9032 can be purchased ?
If that doesn't work I may have to try two of them when the weather warms up. Anothher 9032 can be had for not too much money. (Ill have to contact you cpcat).
Originally posted by cjhrph
Who knows what and where the best balun for the 9032 can be purchased ?
RS has one: http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-1140
Also from Channelmaster: http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm
ADevantier 02-10-05, 06:44 PM Originally posted by cjhrph
Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Central NY (Utica/Syracuse)
Posts: 10
Attention Antenna Guru's
I live in ZIP 13323 approx 30-40 miles from the towers. Its hilly terrain here and im not at one of the highest elevations in the area. I have been messing with the DTV signals for the last year and have tried the following equipment/setup.
Zenith HDV420
Samsung 351
Samsung 165
Channel Master 4248, 4228
Winegard PR-9032
Channel Master 7777 pre-amp
Rooftop install with rotor ~ 35 ft above ground.
It appears that for my location the Yagi's work better than the bowtie, presumably due to multipath. I have not been sucessful with either of the Samsung's, they just cant lock and hold the signals.
The 420 with the Winegard has been pretty good on most channels. However, I still suffer from random dropouts and pixellation. I recently picked up an LG4200A receiver and its pretty good except it completely rejects one of the stations that I used to get with the 420.
I am considering a different antenna, perhaps the DAT-75, JBX-21, or XG91. I was hoping that one of these designs may just be that much better than the Winegard to allow for better success. I really cant get any more height without erecting a tower.
Could someone that has used one of these other antennas tell me if they think this would be a worthwhile upgrade. And if so, where to purchase the european antennas. I know where to get the XG91.
Thank You
Have you tried moving the current antenna to different location the roof? The difference in mounting location can be a much bigger difference than the antenna themselves. Check out HDTV primer for some notes on "hot spots" and "cold spots".
allan
Not yet. Its a bit snowy up there right now. The tripod is permanently mounted to the roof and I would have to pull it. It current location is the only one on the roof where you could see the horizon in the direction of the transmitters. Once the snow melts Ill give it a try just for the hell of it.
Someone other than RadioShack must make a really good low-loss balun. I already have one of the channelmasters.
sregener 02-11-05, 10:09 AM Originally posted by cjhrph
Someone other than RadioShack must make a really good low-loss balun. I already have one of the channelmasters.
They probably all come from the same place, China. I think I read a review a few years back by someone who tried a bunch of different baluns and determined the difference between the best and worst was so small as to be impossible to measure.
What amp do you suggest with the xg91 yagi? I am approximately 77 miles away but have a tower of 90ft. I am hopeing to get some more HD.
Originally posted by homer1
What amp do you suggest with the xg91 yagi? I am approximately 77 miles away but have a tower of 90ft. I am hopeing to get some more HD.
Where you live,a 90ft tower is a plus.Somewhat of a tv wasteland.Plenty of PBS,but not much else.Paducah,Cape Girardeau,Evansville might be easier than St Louis.
The XG is a good choice.A rotor and a CM 7777 preamp and you're good to go.
What Make and model is the Tower?
sregener 02-12-05, 10:40 AM Originally posted by homer1
What amp do you suggest with the xg91 yagi?
For maximum gain and minimal noise, the CM7777 is the way to go. (Don't get the 7775 as it doesn't even pass VHF, which may come back to haunt you after the analog shutoff.)
Originally posted by homer1
What amp do you suggest with the xg91 yagi?
http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html
I was looking around for the 9248/HDTV and it seems they have a new amp out, the 9250. It'll probably run about £120 or so shipped from the UK, though.
It might be easier to go with a couple 91XGs, a low-loss combiner and a "noisy" CM7777 over just 1 91XG and an exotic ultra-low noise pre-amp.
MAX HD, my tower was put up for wireless internet. It came in 10 ft sections. I don't know the model#. It has a dozen guy wires and is clamped to another 25 ft tower mounted in concrete, so it is pretty sturdy.
I am going to do so more reading but plan on the XG91 plus the cm7777, and a rotor. Without stacking antennas, is this about as well as I can do?
Thanks again to all the people offering your insights!!!
greenmaji 02-12-05, 06:07 PM I dont have line of site to the dtv towers in my area but there is a cellular phone tower about 200 yards behind me and is reflecting almost all of the analog signal Im getting I was wondering if there is a chance I could recive digital signal that is retransmited by this tower. anyone have any ideas?
daredevil23 02-12-05, 09:00 PM Originally posted by homer1
What amp do you suggest with the xg91 yagi? I am approximately 77 miles away but have a tower of 90ft. I am hopeing to get some more HD.
I hope they put a red light on the top of it to comply with FAA regulations. :D
Originally posted by homer1
MAX HD, my tower was put up for wireless internet. It came in 10 ft sections. I don't know the model#. It has a dozen guy wires and is clamped to another 25 ft tower mounted in concrete, so it is pretty sturdy.
I am going to do so more reading but plan on the XG91 plus the cm7777, and a rotor. Without stacking antennas, is this about as well as I can do?
Without stacking,the XG will work as good as anything for UHF.You might want to consider a VHF antenna for current and future use.I can fix you up with the largest High Band VHF available on the planet for 69 bucks plus Shipping.You would need 5ft of mast above the top of the tower for both antennas.
http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/UltraHighGain/
FYI-the XG91 and the PSP.1922 have a windload factor expressed as an N-factor of 158,which equates to ~36lbs of lateral force @80mph windspeed.Your tower should handle this much load with ease,probably much more.
BTW,who's going to climb your tower and do an install? Any way to post a pic?
Originally posted by Rack
http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html
I was looking around for the 9248/HDTV and it seems they have a new amp out, the 9250. It'll probably run about £120 or so shipped from the UK, though.
It might be easier to go with a couple 91XGs, a low-loss combiner and a "noisy" CM7777 over just 1 91XG and an exotic ultra-low noise pre-amp.
I have the HDTV LNA from Research Communications. It's good but not as good as the CM 7777. If anyone gets it who's reading this, be sure to get a *good* FM trap as it won't work without one.
"BTW,who's going to climb your tower and do an install? Any way to post a pic?"
I will get the camera out and get a pic, hope I can get it posted ok. My IP will probably climb up there. Local antenna installer says he does'nt like the 90 footers, and preferred not doing it. The IP I have, climb cell towers that are 3X's taller than myself. I personally cringe when I get much over the roof line. Funny thing is, as a kid, we climbed water towers for kicks on a couple different occasions. Not now though!
sebenste 02-13-05, 02:07 AM Hello all,
I'd like an answer as to which antenna is better for UHF reception
across the entire band, on average: the Channelmaster 4228
8-bay or the AntennasDirect XG-91. I have always been suspicious
of yagis since the "corner reflectors" couldn't reflect much, just by a look
at their design. The XG-91 uses pretty much a mesh screen like the
CM 4228, but of course, the dipoles aren't spread out like on the
4228. Also, I suspect the 4228 might be more helpful if one part of the
bays actually hits a "hot spot" while the rest of the antenna is "colder"
with the signal. I am aware of its design problem.
I have a friend who is 80 miles away from a 1 mw ERP UHF station,
and it locks with a Winegard 8200p, the big honkin' VHF/UHF
combo antenna, on a 30' tower. But, he's trying to get a low-powered
DTV station 35 miles away from the tower, and he can't lock it no matter what. He's using a CM 7777 preamp for it, in case he wanted a separate
UHF antenna, which he also made room for, just in case. And, a new
DirecTV HDTV tuner/receiver.
Since he has relatively flat land in north-central Illinois where he is, do
I tell him to get the 4228 or XG-91? Which may more likely lock the
signal? It seems, at least, that the XG-91 and the 4228 will beat the
biggest VHF-UHF combo antenna, since a combo antenna is always
a compromise in reception of broad frequency ranges. I suspect
the XG-91 may be the better go, since they frequently get severe
storms, and even though he is using a non-standard mast that is
much thicker than the ones you can buy at the store (pretty much
pipe!), the wind load may still be too much for it to handle during
very bad weather. Or, is there a better way to handle this?
And, does the XG-91 ever go on sale?
jimc705 02-13-05, 08:17 AM Originally posted by sebenste
Hello all,
I'd like an answer as to which antenna is better for UHF reception
across the entire band, on average: the Channelmaster 4228
8-bay or the AntennasDirect XG-91. I have always been suspicious
of yagis since the "corner reflectors" couldn't reflect much, just by a look
at their design. The XG-91 uses pretty much a mesh screen like the
CM 4228, but of course, the dipoles aren't spread out like on the
4228. Also, I suspect the 4228 might be more helpful if one part of the
bays actually hits a "hot spot" while the rest of the antenna is "colder"
with the signal. I am aware of its design problem.
I have a friend who is 80 miles away from a 1 mw ERP UHF station,
and it locks with a Winegard 8200p, the big honkin' VHF/UHF
combo antenna, on a 30' tower. But, he's trying to get a low-powered
DTV station 35 miles away from the tower, and he can't lock it no matter what. He's using a CM 7777 preamp for it, in case he wanted a separate
UHF antenna, which he also made room for, just in case. And, a new
DirecTV HDTV tuner/receiver.
Since he has relatively flat land in north-central Illinois where he is, do
I tell him to get the 4228 or XG-91? Which may more likely lock the
signal? It seems, at least, that the XG-91 and the 4228 will beat the
biggest VHF-UHF combo antenna, since a combo antenna is always
a compromise in reception of broad frequency ranges. I suspect
the XG-91 may be the better go, since they frequently get severe
storms, and even though he is using a non-standard mast that is
much thicker than the ones you can buy at the store (pretty much
pipe!), the wind load may still be too much for it to handle during
very bad weather. Or, is there a better way to handle this?
And, does the XG-91 ever go on sale?
If you plan on using a rotor especially in high winds the 91xg is the better choice. As for performance a local here did a head to head test with the 4228 and the 91 xg. The signal was a bit stronger on most stations with the 91xg. However on a few channels the 4228 did better and suprisingly it was the one of the higher channels rather then lower, 58. The 4228 did not get a few channels but the 91 xg only missed the one. He stayed with the 91xg. All other channels except one the 91xg was equal or stronger the 4228. This was not an official test in anyway but was taken on the same day and weather conditions in this particular case. The 4228 may outperform the91xg in a similar test in another area there's no real way to know.
Now for my experience I have both a HD 7084 just under the 8200 and the 91xg. I use the 91 xg for far away digitals and the 7084 for my VHF digitals and a few UHF digitals in a different direction. I have the rotor on the 7084 for I do get some very good analog from all directions.
The 91xg seems to have a reliable limit of about 70 to 80 miles even with low powered UHF. I receive a few low power signals from a distance of 60+ miles out very reliable. Even the station eng. was suprised I could receive them from my location (out of their present and full power coverage area). I am in the valley here and beyond that the mountains get huge. Late night I can get digital lock over 150 miles ( up the valley) barely reliable enough to watch. Compared to the 7084 on strong digital signals not much difference. With weak signals the 91xg does find and lock some digitals the 7084 only gets an ocassional blip or nothing at all. I do not use an amp on the 91xg or the 7084 at present.
As for sale . I have never seen the 91XG on sale. I don't think Antennas Direct runs any sales but I may be wrong.
Conclusion at least here in the mountains and valleys of TN. the 91xg seems to do a very good job. Note the 91XG is an extremely directional antenna and requires accurate aiming. I can move my but a few degrees and loose a station completely. This of course is my experience only others may differ. Good Luck.
Originally posted by jimc705
If you plan on using a rotor especially in high winds the 91xg is the better choice. As for performance a local here did a head to head test with the 4228 and the 91 xg. The signal was a bit stronger on most stations with the 91xg. However on a few channels the 4228 did better and suprisingly it was the one of the higher channels rather then lower, 58. The 4228 did not get a few channels but the 91 xg only missed the one. He stayed with the 91xg. All other channels except one the 91xg was equal or stronger the 4228. This was not an official test in anyway but was taken on the same day and weather conditions in this particular case. The 4228 may outperform the91xg in a similar test in another area there's no real way to know.
Now for my experience I have both a HD 7084 just under the 8200 and the 91xg. I use the 91 xg for far away digitals and the 7084 for my VHF digitals and a few UHF digitals in a different direction. I have the rotor on the 7084 for I do get some very good analog from all directions.
The 91xg seems to have a reliable limit of about 70 to 80 miles even with low powered UHF. I receive a few low power signals from a distance of 60+ miles out very reliable. Even the station eng. was suprised I could receive them from my location (out of their present and full power coverage area). I am in the valley here and beyond that the mountains get huge. Late night I can get digital lock over 150 miles ( up the valley) barely reliable enough to watch. Compared to the 7084 on strong digital signals not much difference. With weak signals the 91xg does find and lock some digitals the 7084 only gets an ocassional blip or nothing at all. I do not use an amp on the 91xg or the 7084 at present.
As for sale . I have never seen the 91XG on sale. I don't think Antennas Direct runs any sales but I may be wrong.
Conclusion at least here in the mountains and valleys of TN. the 91xg seems to do a very good job. Note the 91XG is an extremely directional antenna and requires accurate aiming. I can move my but a few degrees and loose a station completely. This of course is my experience only others may differ. Good Luck.
jimc,
You may want to edit one sentence in your last paragraph....unless you're serious:-)
I've tried various UHF antennas and settled on the Quad-X style for best overall performance.As far as the cost on the XG91,it's reasonable with the money back guarantee feature.If more than one is needed it's more economical to buy the Funke DC4591 from CPC in the UK(~$139 for two w/frt).They're the same except for the pickup element.
WILDCAT NATION 02-13-05, 01:24 PM I have a Radio Shack Combo UHF/VHF antenna that works JUST FINE when I have it on a mast in a tripod about 15 feet off the ground in my driveway...
Now, yesterday I mounted it on the chimney of our house, and got absolutely NOTHING...Basically, I gained 25 feet in altitude, got above the tree line, and have a clear shot...but it doesn't work at all, and there was absolutely NO changes to the setup I was running. Can someone explain this one to me?
Would the galvanized Chimney cap cause that much trouble? It's about 2 feet above this cap.
dswallow 02-13-05, 01:30 PM Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION
I have a Radio Shack Combo UHF/VHF antenna that works JUST FINE when I have it on a mast in a tripod about 15 feet off the ground in my driveway...
Now, yesterday I mounted it on the chimney of our house, and got absolutely NOTHING...Basically, I gained 25 feet in altitude, got above the tree line, and have a clear shot...but it doesn't work at all, and there was absolutely NO changes to the setup I was running. Can someone explain this one to me?
Would the galvanized Chimney cap cause that much trouble? It's about 2 feet above this cap.
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html
blackngold19 02-13-05, 01:32 PM Originally posted by WILDCAT NATION
I have a Radio Shack Combo UHF/VHF antenna that works JUST FINE when I have it on a mast in a tripod about 15 feet off the ground in my driveway...
Now, yesterday I mounted it on the chimney of our house, and got absolutely NOTHING...Basically, I gained 25 feet in altitude, got above the tree line, and have a clear shot...but it doesn't work at all, and there was absolutely NO changes to the setup I was running. Can someone explain this one to me?
Would the galvanized Chimney cap cause that much trouble? It's about 2 feet above this cap.
I tried my antenna on the roof and it didn't work as good as it does when I have it outside my bedroom window for some reason. You would think higher = better, but with multipath you never know. It all comes down to trial and error. Keep in mind that you gained 25 ft of altitude and 25 ft of cable. A longer run of cable = a weaker signal. You may want to try a preamp or distribution amplifier in conjunction with your antenna. Good Luck...:)
WILDCAT NATION 02-13-05, 02:18 PM What doesn't make sense to me is that I'm using the exact same length of cable in both setups....
I just tried the driveway makeshift setup again...and it worked perfectly. Only difference is, in the driveway, there are trees, houses, etc...in the way...on the roof, it's pretty much a clear shot.
blackngold19 02-13-05, 04:42 PM Question to anyone:
If I install a distribution amplifier at the antenna is it not serving the same function that a mast mounted pre-amp would?
Thanks in advance,
Blackie
WILDCAT NATION 02-13-05, 04:54 PM Well, I got Pi$$ed and just stuck the mast in the ground...
And, well, it works perfectly... WTF?????????
I'm running the cables through an booster that was being used for Cable, and it seems to be working very well...provides 7dB gain.
Originally posted by blackngold19
Question to anyone:
If I install a distribution amplifier at the antenna is it not serving the same function that a mast mounted pre-amp would?
Thanks in advance,
Blackie
Distribution amps are typically noisier than preamps and in addition most aren't designed to be placed outside.
Distribution amps typically *are* higher output and less prone to overload than preamps so there might be some instances where they would be preffered. Typically in this case you are in a stronger signal area so then you put it inside at the distribution point to the rest of the house.
Bill Johnson 02-13-05, 06:55 PM Originally posted by blackngold19
Question to anyone:
If I install a distribution amplifier at the antenna is it not serving the same function that a mast mounted pre-amp would?
Thanks in advance,
I'll weigh in here and say yes in a general sense: Amplification is amplification and a pre-amp just does it differently IMO. I don't think any hard and fast rules should apply to using pre-amps and dist. amps., but I advocate trial and error instead. Even purchases on online usually can be returned for refund.
As evidence for T&E, I live more than 100 miles from the stations I pull in so I had thought a pre-amp was essential. But all it did was give me no reception, zilch, el zippo. So I went to a CM 3044 dist. amp. and immediately got unbelievable rock solid reception.
blackngold19 02-13-05, 07:02 PM Well I had a Winegard 0405 D. Amp at the receiver for months with success. Only issues I had were the lower powered NBC and WSBK signals flaking out me quite frequently. So I figured I'd put the amp right at the antenna which is right outside my bedroom window and it appears to work much better there. Bumps NBC and WSBK up to the point where they won't unlock on me. My only problem now is I've got to figure out a way to weatherproof the amp. I was thinking of a weatherproof electrical box from Depot, but I couldn't find one that would fit. I might just clear silicone the snot out of it and mount it to the side of my house. I'm going to monitor the improvement over the next few days before I do anything permanent.
MAX HD, Here is a pic of my tower, I am hopeing it goes through this time.
Originally posted by homer1
MAX HD, Here is a pic of my tower, I am hopeing it goes through this time.
Whoever does the job will have to add a rotor bracket and possibly modify the top of it to hold an antenna mast.Can't see the very top of it too well in the pic.Looks like it's guyed well.
blackngold19 02-13-05, 07:58 PM That's one heck of a tower. Where do you get something like that?
sregener 02-14-05, 08:51 AM Originally posted by sebenste
I'd like an answer as to which antenna is better for UHF reception
across the entire band, on average: the Channelmaster 4228
8-bay or the AntennasDirect XG-91. I have always been suspicious
of yagis since the "corner reflectors" couldn't reflect much, just by a look
at their design.
...But, he's trying to get a low-powered DTV station 35 miles away from the tower, and he can't lock it no matter what. He's using a CM 7777 preamp for it, in case he wanted a separate UHF antenna, which he also made room for, just in case.
I haven't tried the 4228, but I'd put heavy money on the 91XG. It is an amazing antenna.
*However*, if he's really getting nothing with one decent UHF antenna (and I'm including the 8200P in this category, as I had one) replacing it with a different antenna is almost certainly not going to work. The difference between the 91XG and the 8200P is hardly subtle - I'm getting more reliable locks of stations that were problematic before, and I'm getting them more often - but the #1 factor in reception is the location of the antenna. If that doesn't change, it's unlikely that any antenna is suddenly going to start getting a station if the 8200P is getting nothing. IOW, the signal just plain isn't there.
When I replaced my 8200P with the 91XG, I did not get a digital lock on any stations that I hadn't gotten a digital lock on before. I suspect your friend would have the same result.
sebenste 02-14-05, 11:03 AM Hello all,
Thanks for the replies. It looks like the XG-91 and 4228 are quite close...
both are better than the 8200P, but if you haven't got signal,
I know no antenna can compensate for that. :-) Thanks!
sregener 02-14-05, 12:11 PM Originally posted by Bill Johnson
As evidence for T&E, I live more than 100 miles from the stations I pull in so I had thought a pre-amp was essential. But all it did was give me no reception, zilch, el zippo. So I went to a CM 3044 dist. amp. and immediately got unbelievable rock solid reception.
Sounds to me like there was a problem with your preamplifier. At that distance, overload and multipath shouldn't be issues, so the only possibilities are 1) hardware failure or 2) incorrect wiring to get DC voltage up the coax to the outdoor unit. Most preamplifiers do not pass a signal if they don't get voltage. Most splitters don't pass DC.
Bill Johnson 02-14-05, 02:45 PM Originally posted by sregener
Sounds to me like there was a problem with your preamplifier. At that distance, overload and multipath shouldn't be issues, so the only possibilities are 1) hardware failure or 2) incorrect wiring to get DC voltage up the coax to the outdoor unit. Most preamplifiers do not pass a signal if they don't get voltage. Most splitters don't pass DC.Sounds to me like there was a problem with your preamplifier. At that distance, overload and multipath shouldn't be issues, so the only possibilities are 1) hardware failure or 2) incorrect wiring to get DC voltage up the coax to the outdoor unit. Most preamplifiers do not pass a signal if they don't get voltage. Most splitters don't pass DC.
Perhaps it was a defective pre-amp since I determined the wiring, cabling, and input setup was exactly correct. I just know the 3044 works perfectly.
greenmaji 02-14-05, 05:56 PM MAX HD
I've tried various UHF antennas and settled on the Quad-X style for best overall performance.
I was wondering what manufacturers produce the Quad-X style antennas?
thanks
lolowar 02-14-05, 08:06 PM I would like to build a 25ft temporary antenna that I could put up on football sunday and take down once I'm done watching the game. I'm currently renting but have my own backyard. I also have a 6 foot fence I could attach a pole to. Any suggest or pointers would be welcome.
Originally posted by lolowar
I would like to build a 25ft temporary antenna that I could put up on football sunday and take down once I'm done watching the game. I'm currently renting but have my own backyard. I also have a 6 foot fence I could attach a pole to. Any suggest or pointers would be welcome.
Check out the flagpole at Force12 Inc (http://www.force12inc.com)
I have a 24' freestanding antenna based upon this design. 12' of their 2" thick wall and 12' of their thin wall 3' deep in the ground. And a CM 4221 on top. ROCKS!!!
Their site is a bit confusing(?) but look around, they actually have instructions for putting the hole in the ground that'll hold up this mast.
lolowar 02-14-05, 09:24 PM Thanks but, I'm not looking to spend that kind of money.
Originally posted by Bill Johnson
Perhaps it was a defective pre-amp since I determined the wiring, cabling, and input setup was exactly correct. I just know the 3044 works perfectly.
What was the preamp you were using? Maybe it was overloaded by the 568Kw signal of WVPT which is likely a few miles away?
I envy the knob where you live.At 1800ft+ ASL you're in DX paradise with the Staunton locals notched out ;)
Originally posted by lolowar
Thanks but, I'm not looking to spend that kind of money.
What's your budget...This only cost me about $100 plus 1 sack of concrete and a bucket of sweat.
lolowar 02-15-05, 07:56 AM That doesn't sound so bad. Not my property so I would have to do without the concrete.
Go to Lowes and buy 2 - 10' antenna tube masts ~ $15 ea. and 1 - 5' ~ $8 and some guy wire.
sregener 02-15-05, 09:36 AM Originally posted by lolowar
I would like to build a 25ft temporary antenna that I could put up on football sunday and take down once I'm done watching the game. I'm currently renting but have my own backyard. I also have a 6 foot fence I could attach a pole to. Any suggest or pointers would be welcome.
I think you're going to be very limited in what you can do. The problem is wind load and torque. You'd probably destroy a wood fence if you attached a 25' pole to it, once a breeze kicked up. That said, if you want to try something, this is what I'd try...
If you have enough ground space to lower it, Radio Shack sells telescoping masts. They raise up without problems, but to lower it again, you'd have to climb up it a way to undo the locking mechanisms. I'd attach a *small* UHF antenna to the top, no bigger than a 4-bay bowtie (2 would be better.) Look into AntennasDirect's DB2. Then I'd tie that thing as strong as I could (bungee cords strectched to max might work) to a post in your fence. Then I'd pray that the force of the wind didn't destroy it.
I am not making any promises that this won't destroy property. You have to know that what you're doing is at your own risk and is highly prone to problems.
Originally posted by lolowar
That doesn't sound so bad. Not my property so I would have to do without the concrete.
Not my property either! I just left the concrete 2" below the surface and covered it with dirt. When I finally leave the apartment, I will pull the pole out and fill in the hole! See ya! This is so sturdy, I can leave it up all the time if I choose (the manager does not show up in my backyard too often)!
i
Bill Johnson 02-15-05, 10:59 AM Originally posted by Max HD
What was the preamp you were using? Maybe it was overloaded by the 568Kw signal of WVPT which is likely a few miles away?
I envy the knob where you live. At 1800ft+ ASL you're in DX paradise with the Staunton locals notched out.
It's a CM 7777 and overloading's also a possibility since I have LOS to the WVPT antenna about 8 miles away on 4500 ft. Eliott Knob. I even receive a very strong signal from their digital transmitter at only 3 kW.
Notwithstanding my great elevation, I'm simply mystified at how I'm receiving such strong digital reception of about 10 or so stations at such incredible distances with mountains in between.
NightHawk 02-15-05, 11:36 AM Originally posted by Bill Johnson
Notwithstanding my great elevation, I'm simply mystified at how I'm receiving such strong digital reception of about 10 or so stations at such incredible distances with mountains in between.
With a transmitter antenna at 1000 feet and you at 1800 feet the radio horizon is calculated at around 105 miles. Critical for UHF reception. Someone half as far, say 50 miles, has only 6 dB more signal, and if they are at sea level, they need at least a 20 foot mast to get anything at all. The numbers are approximate but you can see that the drop in signal level between 50 and 100 miles is a whole lot less than between 0 and 50 miles.
Bill Johnson 02-15-05, 03:57 PM Originally posted by NightHawk
With a transmitter antenna at 1000 feet and you at 1800 feet the radio horizon is calculated at around 105 miles. Critical for UHF reception. Someone half as far, say 50 miles, has only 6 dB more signal, and if they are at sea level, they need at least a 20 foot mast to get anything at all. The numbers are approximate but you can see that the drop in signal level between 50 and 100 miles is a whole lot less than between 0 and 50 miles.
Thanks NightHawk for lucidly explaining something that up till now made no sense to me for more than a year and a half. The only other thing I'm still wondering about is how the Blue Ridge Mtns. factor in since I've drawn a line between me and the DC towers on a topo map. And where it crosses the mtns. has to be around 3000 ft. and maybe higher. Weird! My amazing Richmond reception I now can fully understand with your explanation, plus a gap near Afton Mtn.
sregener 02-15-05, 04:37 PM Originally posted by Bill Johnson
The only other thing I'm still wondering about is how the Blue Ridge Mtns. factor in since I've drawn a line between me and the DC towers on a topo map. And where it crosses the mtns. has to be around 3000 ft. and maybe higher.
This is probably knife-edge refraction, a phenomenon where the signals bend over a sharp object like a mountaintop. People near the mountains may get nothing as the bending "shoots over" them, but as you get some distance between you and the mountain, the signals can be very strong.
No doubt it helps that you don't have co-channel interference.
lolowar 02-15-05, 04:56 PM I have a chain link fence. About 6 feet tall.
Bill Johnson 02-15-05, 05:24 PM Originally posted by sregener
This is probably knife-edge refraction, a phenomenon where the signals bend over a sharp object like a mountaintop. People near the mountains may get nothing as the bending "shoots over" them, but as you get some distance between you and the mountain, the signals can be very strong.
I've heard it also called knife-edge diffraction, but in any event there may be no other explanation. The only thing here is that the leaf effect should kick in in the summer time to worsen reception to some degree, but I'm just as rock solid then as the other months of the year. So I don't know.
Originally posted by greenmaji
I was wondering what manufacturers produce the Quad-X style antennas?
thanks
There are several manufacturers around the world,but none here in the states.Several different brands can be purchased from the UK through www.cpc.co.uk
mainemojo 02-16-05, 07:50 PM I bought a Zenith Silver Sensor to try to pull in the one local HD channel my cableco doesn't deliver. Antennaweb says I'm 24.2 miles from the tower (antenna type: red). I thought I'd take a shot, since I have a $60 portable TV with rabbit ears that pulls in UHF stations without problems. But I get worse reception on my big-bucks HDTV with the Silver Sensor. In fact, the antenna picks up VHF signals, but doesn't get any HD signals. And to add to the confusion, the only UHF signals it gets are non-digital and on frequencies that don't match the channel assignments: 35 tunes in at 86, 51 at 107, 23 at 74. Is there an explanation for all of this? Other than buying an outdoor antenna, is there something else I should be doing to be sure the Silver Sensor isn't useless?
To pickup digital signals the antenna has to be pointing right at the tower, unlike analog signals, where you only have to be 'close'. Also it REALLY helps if there is no mountains or tall buildings in the digital signal path.
Remember, the bigger the screen, the more signal you need. You might try an antenna inline amplifier.
You can also call the station to ask what they are sending as far as power(watts). I found out that one of my local digital station's output was only 500 watts. And that is not enough, even though I have a direct line of sight to the antenna, 21 miles away. I was told that they were going to put up their full power antenna in the spring, when they can get to the top of the mountain.
Originally posted by mainemojo
And to add to the confusion, the only UHF signals it gets are non-digital and on frequencies that don't match the channel assignments: 35 tunes in at 86, 51 at 107, 23 at 74. Is there an explanation for all of this?
Sounds like you're scanning the IRC or HRC cable frequency mappings with your OTA antenna. You might have better luck if you switch the mapping to OTA or Standard.
Oh yeah, one more thing. Does your HDTV have an ATSC tuner?
COEX-Pilot 02-17-05, 05:41 AM Originally posted by mainemojo
I bought a Zenith Silver Sensor to try to pull in the one local HD channel my cableco doesn't deliver. Antennaweb says I'm 24.2 miles from the tower (antenna type: red). I I should be doing to be sure the Silver Sensor isn't useless?
Something is definately not right with your setup!
I had a SS antenna and picked up almost all the HD stations and I'm 25 miles from the closest one and there are some hills in between! Being that there were also trees in the way, I switched to CM but the SS did work great.
Check your installation, tuner, etc. That little SS is one great antenna!
MartinK 02-17-05, 05:44 AM I have: Silver Sensor >> 6ft cable >> HDTV wonder, spotty reception (dropouts) on some channels
Weak signal >>> Added: Channelmaster 7775 preamp
Result >> same signal with preamp powered on or powered off
Am I doing something wrong here? How do I know the preamp is working? Did I waste $50 on a device I don't need?
Thanks
blackngold19 02-17-05, 07:15 AM Originally posted by MartinK
I have: Silver Sensor >> 6ft cable >> HDTV wonder, spotty reception (dropouts) on some channels
Weak signal >>> Added: Channelmaster 7775 preamp
Result >> same signal with preamp powered on or powered off
Am I doing something wrong here? How do I know the preamp is working? Did I waste $50 on a device I don't need?
Thanks
How many miles are you from the farm? If you try to amplify a weak signal that is multipathing, you are not likely to solve the problem by amplifying what the SS is picking up. You will need to move the SS around the house to try to find a "hot spot", or even better, place a small antenna outside somewhere. I'd always go outside first before I use a preamp, but if you cant go outside, try a Square Shooter near a window facing the antenna farm. The Square Shooter has better gain and wouldn't really look too bad mounted inside somewhere. The Silver Sensor is what it is. Pound for Pound, it's probably one of the better indoor antenna solutions, but if you have to go through walls and windows, you are really asking alot of that antenna, especially at a distance greater than 20 miles. Also, the Silver Sensor is very directional. Make sure it is aimed directly at the antenna farms. Even if that means pointing it directly through the wall. Good Luck!!!:)
DreAmingDigITal 02-17-05, 09:10 AM Hello everyone!....I live in Salem, Va (which is about 8 miles from the local broadcast towers) and I have a question for the pros here. I bought a Terk TV55 antenna from Best Buy, because I wanted to pick up HD channed over the air. Well I hooked it up and got a very weak signal, the picture was cutting in and out sometimes freezing up. I was told in my Local Forum that this antenna was basically junk :). So I want some suggestions on what to buy that will work better. Is there anything that is fairly compact that is a very good antenna?? My girlfriend will kill me if I put up a large antenna :(. Thanks for your help!!
blackngold19 02-17-05, 09:47 AM Originally posted by DreAmingDigITal
Hello everyone!....I live in Salem, Va (which is about 8 miles from the local broadcast towers) and I have a question for the pros here. I bought a Terk TV55 antenna from Best Buy, because I wanted to pick up HD channed over the air. Well I hooked it up and got a very weak signal, the picture was cutting in and out sometimes freezing up. I was told in my Local Forum that this antenna was basically junk :). So I want some suggestions on what to buy that will work better. Is there anything that is fairly compact that is a very good antenna?? My girlfriend will kill me if I put up a large antenna :(. Thanks for your help!!
The antennas direct DB4 is has excellent gain for it's size, 29" x 16". I'f you more concerned with aesthetics, you may want to look into the Winegard Square Shooter. The gain isn't as good as the DB4, but it will be close, and it looks like a square DBS Dish. I tried both antennas, and the DB4 outperformed the Square Shooter by a good margin. Go to www.antennasdirect.com for more info on the DB4. The Square Shooter can be found a www.solidsignal.com.
Best Buy does carry the the Square Shooter in a TERK Box, but it's overpriced at 150.00. You can find it online for around 100.00. Actually, I just looked at your antenna farms and it looks like you may need a UHF/VHF combo antenna, so the DB4 won't work for you for VHF. Anyways, go check out antennas direct. They do have some combos there that will work for you. As for the Square Shooter, I've posted in here that it's UHF only, and people have said it will work for VHF, but I don't see it listed in the specs that it will handle VHF. At your range, you could try the Winegard Stealthtenna for around 40.00. That's the antenna that VOOM gives away for OTA installs. That should be enough at your range unless you live in a hole somewhere. Good Luck!!
sregener 02-17-05, 09:55 AM Originally posted by mainemojo
I thought I'd take a shot, since I have a $60 portable TV with rabbit ears that pulls in UHF stations without problems. But I get worse reception on my big-bucks HDTV with the Silver Sensor. In fact, the antenna picks up VHF signals, but doesn't get any HD signals. And to add to the confusion, the only UHF signals it gets are non-digital and on frequencies that don't match the channel assignments: 35 tunes in at 86, 51 at 107, 23 at 74. Is there an explanation for all of this? Other than buying an outdoor antenna, is there something else I should be doing to be sure the Silver Sensor isn't useless?
First of all, if the analog stations are tuning at odd numbers, the odds are good you have your RF input set to cable rather than antenna. Cable uses the frequencies between 13 and 14 that are not allocated for broadcast television.
Secondly, have you taken your $60 portable TV down to where your HDTV set is and compared the reception? Keep in mind that your HDTV is probably larger, so picture flaws will be more obvious. I used to have a 46" projection set and pictures that looked good in the PiP window looked horrible full-screen. Check that portable set's picture *real* close. I'll bet, with similar placement of antennas, it looks just as bad.
Finally, if you're not getting anything on digital channels, the odds are very good you bought an "HDTV Monitor." These do not have a digital tuner to receive signals over-the-air. They need an external tuner (which is what your HD digital cable box is) of some sort. A cable tuner won't receive over-the-air signals, though a DirecTV/Dish/Voom box will. There are also tuners that only receive over-the-air signals.
The Silver Sensor isn't useless, but it's also not a "red" antenna. Try locating it as high and as close to the outer wall that points in the direction of the towers as possible.
DreAmingDigITal 02-17-05, 10:32 AM The antennas direct DB4 is has excellent gain for it's size, 29" x 16". I'f you more concerned with aesthetics, you may want to look into the Winegard Square Shooter. The gain isn't as good as the DB4, but it will be close, and it looks like a square DBS Dish. I tried both antennas, and the DB4 outperformed the Square Shooter by a good margin. Go to antennasdirect for more info on the DB4. The Square Shooter can be found at solidsignal
Best Buy does carry the the Square Shooter in a TERK Box, but it's overpriced at 150.00. You can find it online for around 100.00. Actually, I just looked at your antenna farms and it looks like you may need a UHF/VHF combo antenna, so the DB4 won't work for you for VHF. Anyways, go check out antennas direct. They do have some combos there that will work for you. As for the Square Shooter, I've posted in here that it's UHF only, and people have said it will work for VHF, but I don't see it listed in the specs that it will handle VHF. At your range, you could try the Winegard Stealthtenna for around 40.00. That's the antenna that VOOM gives away for OTA installs. That should be enough at your range unless you live in a hole somewhere. Good Luck!!
Alright, Well I just checked antennasweb and it is telling me that all of my local channels (Digital Stations Only) are broadcast in UHF, except for one (PBS, which I don't watch). So maybe the DB4 or SquareShooter will be good for me. So, I just have one more question......I will have to run about 100ft of cable to hook the antenna up, will this cause a loss in the signal strength? How can I avoid this? Also, do you recommend any type of cable to use to minimize this? You'll have to excuse my ignorance, I'm very new to all of this :).
Originally posted by 4DHD
Remember, the bigger the screen, the more signal you need.
Huh? I don't think so! The receiver has a sensitivity level at it's input. Once the signal recieved from the antenna reaches this level, the receiver then processes the signal and sends it to the rest of the component that scale the image to fit the screen. The size of the TV screen has nothing to do with how much signal is required to fill it!
sregener 02-17-05, 01:35 PM Originally posted by DreAmingDigITal
I will have to run about 100ft of cable to hook the antenna up, will this cause a loss in the signal strength? How can I avoid this? Also, do you recommend any type of cable to use to minimize this?
There will be some signal loss due to the length of the cable, but given your distance (20 miles or so) I suspect it won't be a big problem. Use RG-6 (common) or RG-11 (hard to work with, uncommon) cable, and try to get shielded cabling. These cables have a wider center connector than RG-59 (the most common antenna cabling) and thus lose less signal over the distance.
For those with extreme cable loss issues, a preamplifier, which has a box that attaches right next to the antenna and another that supplies the power through the coax from an indoor location, can compensate for cable loss. It does this by boosting the signal at the antenna, before the line loss, such that the signal loss in the cable reduces a stronger, rather than a weaker, signal. That increases the odds that signal-to-noise ratios will still be good at the receiver. However, preamplifiers usually cause problems when used too close to broadcast towers, as they overload and boost reflections (also called multipath or ghosting.) A 20 mile minimum distance is recommended.
fay28301 02-17-05, 02:15 PM Hi you-all, this is my 1st. time posting, long time reader though, so I hope I am in the right place for this post. Getting to the point--I am wondering where I could find a Channel Master 4251 UHF antenna. For sheer gain, it was the best one ever made. They quit making them about 5 yrs ago, so I figured there may be one laying around in a warehouse somewhere that someone may know about.
Also, if I may make a suggestion to whoever uses any length of cable (over 100ft.) with a preamp, try to use RG-11 if you can, not because of signal loss, but because of voltage loss, as the voltage that the preamp uses is so small that smaller cables lose enough to make a difference in picture quality. This has been my personal experience with the difference cables and preamps.
fay28301
Inundated 02-17-05, 04:03 PM Originally posted by blackngold19
Best Buy does carry the the Square Shooter in a TERK Box, but it's overpriced at 150.00. You can find it online for around 100.00. Actually, I just looked at your antenna farms and it looks like you may need a UHF/VHF combo antenna, so the DB4 won't work for you for VHF. Anyways, go check out antennas direct. They do have some combos there that will work for you. As for the Square Shooter, I've posted in here that it's UHF only, and people have said it will work for VHF, but I don't see it listed in the specs that it will handle VHF. At your range, you could try the Winegard Stealthtenna for around 40.00. That's the antenna that VOOM gives away for OTA installs. That should be enough at your range unless you live in a hole somewhere. Good Luck!!
A few things to clear up for this person:
* The only VHF DT in his market (Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA) is the PBS affiliate, WBRA/15 (DT 3). If he doesn't care about PBS, he won't need a VHF antenna. And yes, that station is a low-VHF, which will be difficult for him to get in the FIRST place.
* The Roanoke/Lynchburg market is chock full of hills and mountainous terrain. In theory, he's almost next door to most of the major towers in the market (on a nearby mountain called Poor Mountain) and HD reception shouldn't be THAT difficult. But he could have terrain issues - i.e. hills or even mountains in the way - that could shadow him from those signals and be causing multipath. In particular, on the local market thread, he reported occasional breakups on WDBJ-DT, which is a full-strength signal at that antenna farm 8 miles away from him. That could just be his crummy antenna, and a new antenna placed up higher could fix that easily.
* The SquareShooter, et al., should work fine with powerful-enough high-VHF signals, even though they're designed for UHF. But as noted, the only VHF DT in his market is DT 3 (WBRA/PBS), which means it wouldn't work no matter what. If he really wanted digital PBS, he'd have to work in a VHF antenna somehow...people talk about how to do that earlier in this thread. If he doesn't care about PBS, it's a lot easier.
BrettStah 02-17-05, 04:10 PM Question about using two directional atennas at the same time...
First, I have one station that is almost 180 degrees opposite all of the other stations. According to someone who lives nearby, it's possible to pick up this one station with a Silver Sensor, and when he turns it around he can pick up the other stations. However, that's not a great solution for someone with a HD-DVR, so I thought about the possibility of gettings the following. Would it most likely work?
2 Silver Sensors
3 coax cables, at least 2 of them of the same length
1 Combiner/Splitter
Then I'd point the Silver Sensors in opposite directions, feed their outputs into the combiner/splitter, and then run the output of that into my HD-Tivo. I'm pretty sure I've read about this in the past, so hopefully it would do the trick.
elsalvador69 02-17-05, 07:48 PM I just bought the Terk indoor antenna, and am running it through my Dish receiver. Is there a better indoor antenna that will reach beyond 35 miles?
Mine pretty much picks up all the channels, except Kens DT; but I have to readjust the position of the antenna everytime I go to a new OTA channel.
MartinK 02-17-05, 11:21 PM Originally posted by blackngold19
If you try to amplify a weak signal that is multipathing, you are not likely to solve the problem by amplifying what the SS is picking up.
Alright! I was hoping to avoid the outdoors antenna, but that'll be next. With the preamp at least I won't have to worry about able length ;)
Originally posted by BrettStah
Question about using two directional atennas at the same time...
First, I have one station that is almost 180 degrees opposite all of the other stations. According to someone who lives nearby, it's possible to pick up this one station with a Silver Sensor, and when he turns it around he can pick up the other stations. However, that's not a great solution for someone with a HD-DVR, so I thought about the possibility of gettings the following. Would it most likely work?
2 Silver Sensors
3 coax cables, at least 2 of them of the same length
1 Combiner/Splitter
Then I'd point the Silver Sensors in opposite directions, feed their outputs into the combiner/splitter, and then run the output of that into my HD-Tivo. I'm pretty sure I've read about this in the past, so hopefully it would do the trick.
If you try this it would be a good idea to get the antennas from somwhere you can return them 'cause it probably won't work. The mulipath created by combining two antennas aimed differently without some sort of filtering will likely kill all or most of your signals.
You have two other options. If you're lucky, the one off-axis station is your only VHF station. In that case, it's easy to diplex the two antennas with a VHF/UHF diplexer (CM 0549, Pico makes one too).
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm
http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf
If not, then you'll either need the CM Jointenna http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/joiners.htm to join the two
or a bidirectional antenna. The RS 15-1880 might be bidirectional enough.
BrettStah 02-18-05, 09:37 AM Thanks for the feedback, cpcat. Unfortunately that lonely channel is not VHF. I'll probably stop by Radio Shack and pick up that 15-1880 antenna to try first, before ordering the two Silver Sensors.
sregener 02-18-05, 09:55 AM Originally posted by BrettStah
Question about using two directional atennas at the same time...
I know I've answered this question in this thread at least a dozen times already. In fact, it's such a common question that I can't believe it's not in the FAQ.
You *cannot* take two antennas designed to receive the same frequencies, aim them in different directions, connect them using a simple splitter/combiner and expect to get good results.
If you have a 2-3 channel "buffer" on each side of the one "off-axis" station, you can use a Channel Master Jointenna for that frequency to combine two antennas. If you have 2 or more channels in both directions, of if channel numbers are adjacent, more expensive and complicated filtering solutions are required.
Exception: If your stations are 180 degrees apart, purchasing a multi-bowtie antenna (DB2, DB4, DB8, CM 4228, etc.) and removing the screen *might* work. Then again, it opens you up to greater multipath and reduces the gain of your antenna by 3db, so it might totally screw up the stations you were getting just fine before.
sregener 02-18-05, 09:57 AM Originally posted by elsalvador69
I just bought the Terk indoor antenna, and am running it through my Dish receiver. Is there a better indoor antenna that will reach beyond 35 miles?
Mine pretty much picks up all the channels, except Kens DT; but I have to readjust the position of the antenna everytime I go to a new OTA channel.
You're doing pretty good for an indoor antenna. 35 miles is beyond the reliable capabilities for indoor antennas. Assuming you have the Zenith Silver Sensor look-alike from Terk, you probably would have to go outside (or significantly change the location of your current antenna) to get better results. You also could try a DB2, or try something larger in an attic area.
PBS, which I don't watch
That's what I USED to say too.
But PBS in HD is so great, that I've learned a lot about a lot of different stuff in the last few weeks, ONLY because the picture was so great, I stay tuned and got interested in the HD programming that they produce.
Very interesting stuff, and my kids have "learnt sumthin' " now! :D
BrettStah 02-18-05, 10:45 AM Originally posted by sregener
I know I've answered this question in this thread at least a dozen times already. In fact, it's such a common question that I can't believe it's not in the FAQ.
You *cannot* take two antennas designed to receive the same frequencies, aim them in different directions, connect them using a simple splitter/combiner and expect to get good results.
If you have a 2-3 channel "buffer" on each side of the one "off-axis" station, you can use a Channel Master Jointenna for that frequency to combine two antennas. If you have 2 or more channels in both directions, of if channel numbers are adjacent, more expensive and complicated filtering solutions are required.
Exception: If your stations are 180 degrees apart, purchasing a multi-bowtie antenna (DB2, DB4, DB8, CM 4228, etc.) and removing the screen *might* work. Then again, it opens you up to greater multipath and reduces the gain of your antenna by 3db, so it might totally screw up the stations you were getting just fine before.
Thanks for answering it again... I did search, but came up with nothing. But I did vaguely recall discussion of it. I asked this question over on the tivo forums after I hadn't seen a response over here this morning to it, and someone from Atlanta (I think) says he actually has this exact setup working, but as you say it's probably more likely than not that it'd cause problems.
I plan on trying a bidirectional antenna first, and if that fails, I'm going to order two Silver Sensors. If they don't work together well, I'll order a jointenna. Luckily, it's only one channel over there, so the more complicated/expensive solutions hopefully won't be needed.
sregener 02-18-05, 12:17 PM Originally posted by BrettStah
I asked this question over on the tivo forums after I hadn't seen a response over here this morning to it, and someone from Atlanta (I think) says he actually has this exact setup working, but as you say it's probably more likely than not that it'd cause problems.
Atlanta has UHF and VHF digitals. He may be combining one of each type for his digital reception and getting good results.
Note that I didn't say that it can't work. I just said you can't expect it to. The odds are strongly against you.
PBS, which I don't watch...
Originally posted by j-bo
That's what I USED to say too.
But PBS in HD is so great, that I've learned a lot about a lot of different stuff in the last few weeks, ONLY because the picture was so great, I stay tuned and got interested in the HD programming that they produce.
Very interesting stuff, and my kids have "learnt sumthin' " now! :D
I'm a convert as well! I think I've watched From Orphan to King (The Story of Kusasi the Orangutan) three times now! And the story about the Alaskan Canadian Highway was good too!
I plan on connecting a 4228 and a 7-13 VHF yagi in my attic. I will run RG6 from the baluns to a UHF/VHF combiner and then down to my reciever. Are the lengths of RG6 from the UHF and VHF antenna to the combiner critical?
Originally posted by fmx
I plan on connecting a 4228 and a 7-13 VHF yagi in my attic. I will run RG6 from the baluns to a UHF/VHF combiner and then down to my reciever. Are the lengths of RG6 from the UHF and VHF antenna to the combiner critical?
I have always had better performance in a combined situation when the lengths were equal. I am doing this now.
http://www.w4cl.net/fox/p2050021.jpg
Originally posted by foxeng
http://www.w4cl.net/fox/p2050021.jpg
Is that a VIP-307SR I see there?
Nitewatchman 02-18-05, 05:43 PM See if anyone can guess what this one is(the larger VHF antenna in attached pic) ...
I was thinking about the VIP307SR, but I got this "slightly" used VHF antenna for free ... Hint: they don't make it anymore, 200" boom ...
http://www.lashen.com/vendors/winegard/vhf-fm_antennas.asp#ca-5254
That's my best guess, Nitewatchman.
Nitewatchman 02-18-05, 07:58 PM Rack,
Ding ding ding! I'm impressed ... That's pretty close+must be the newer version of it(I didn't know there was one!) ... It's a Winegard C?-5200 ... I have 2 spec sheets from the fellow I got it from, one says CS-5200, the other says CH-5200, specs are the same on both, don't know what the difference is ... the fellow originally told me in his email it was a Winegard CM-5200, but I expect that may have been a typo ... Here's some of the "claimed" specs from the winegard spec sheet :
ch 2 - 6.3dbd gain, 64 deg beamwidth at 1/2 power points, 20db F/B ratio
ch 6 - 8.0dbd gain, 56 deg beamwidth , 20db f/b ratio
ch 7 - 11.8dbd gain, 40 deg beamwidth, 20db f/b ratio
ch 13 - 11.8dbd gain, 30 deg beamwidth, 20db f/b ratio
200" boom, 14.5lbs ... 39 elements(i'm trying to figure out how they get that number, as I don't "count" quite that many but it looks just like the pic in their spec sheets) .... max width 108", turning radius 110" ... Anodized Aluminum finish, element diameter 7/16" .. Element "material" .025 38000PSI(whatever that means) ....
It has 300ohm hardline running about 1/8" above+below the boom that connect active elements(and a couple of the passive directors) together ...
Originally posted by fay28301
Hi you-all, this is my 1st. time posting, long time reader though, so I hope I am in the right place for this post. Getting to the point--I am wondering where I could find a Channel Master 4251 UHF antenna. For sheer gain, it was the best one ever made. They quit making them about 5 yrs ago, so I figured there may be one laying around in a warehouse somewhere that someone may know about.
Also, if I may make a suggestion to whoever uses any length of cable (over 100ft.) with a preamp, try to use RG-11 if you can, not because of signal loss, but because of voltage loss, as the voltage that the preamp uses is so small that smaller cables lose enough to make a difference in picture quality. This has been my personal experience with the difference cables and preamps.
fay28301
If anyone has one of these it would be Rich Wertman in Lockport,NY.He posts on this forum as rwantennasat.Here's a link to one of his post's that has his email addy....
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4872709
He also sells RG-11 on the cheap and will install the F-connectors free of charge(in lengths of 100ft,or more).
Why do you need a 4251? Just curious.
greenmaji 02-18-05, 08:48 PM Couldn't someone use a Attenuator to keep there signal from overloading from a close transmision? Just wondering.
Originally posted by foxeng
I have always had better performance in a combined situation when the lengths were equal. I am doing this now.
http://www.w4cl.net/fox/p2050021.jpg
This shouldn't matter if one antenna is for vhf and the other is for uhf. I'm assuming you're diplexing them, so the signals aren't really "combining", anyway.
Identical cable lengths are only necessary if combining two indentical antennas i.e. "stacking" for increased gain, narrower beamwidth, etc.
Originally posted by fmx
I plan on connecting a 4228 and a 7-13 VHF yagi in my attic. I will run RG6 from the baluns to a UHF/VHF combiner and then down to my reciever. Are the lengths of RG6 from the UHF and VHF antenna to the combiner critical?
No. The UHF/VHF diplexer filters out the uhf signals from the vhf antenna and vice versa for the uhf antenna to prevent multipath from distorting both signals. The relative lengths of cable before the diplexer won't matter. This is only critical when phasing two identical antennas together in a stacked configuration for increased gain, narrow beamwidth, etc.
I'm trying to receive OTA HD signal and was told that the Terk TV55 antenna would work. I've tried the Terk TV44 and get NO signal.
I have Dish Network and the signal source is roughly 42 miles away. The Terk TV 55 does not say how far away the signal can be picked up. Does anyone know the capabilities i.e. miles of the 55? Or has anyone had a positive experience with this antenna.
Or can anyone recommend an OTA antenna that doesn't have to be mounted to the roof? :confused:
Nitewatchman 02-19-05, 12:12 AM Originally posted by greenmaji
Couldn't someone use a Attenuator to keep there signal from overloading from a close transmision? Just wondering.
Yes ... hopefully someone getting such strong signals isn't using a preamp, however -- unless they are knocking down/trapping out any super strong signals before they reach the preamp - most preamps have a FM trap(usually switchable) for FM broadcast band frequencies for this very reason - Also -- Since most preamps are very broadband, ANY nearby strong signals, not Just TV signals can overload them ...
I'd think it's probably pretty unlikely in most cases that a strong signal would overload the front-end of TV/DTV receiver if a preamp isn't used, at least I hope Its unlikely ... I do know it's sometimes easy to overload FM receivers to the point of "desensitizing" the reciever to weaker signals .....
There is an interesting article(it's quite "technical" however, but at one point discusses where an attenuator could be useful) that somewhat relates to our discussion here: http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/digital_tv/02-16-05.shtml
If perchance, someone is using a preamp in a strong signal area, the place to put the atteunator would be in the line before the preamp ... Of course, that probably mostly defeat the purpose of the preamp, but it's a way to keep the preamp from being overloaded by strong signals and creating intermodulation distortion(i.e. extra "noise") ...
An adjustable attenuator(RS has one) may especially be a useful tool in some circumstances ...
dswallow 02-19-05, 12:24 AM Ideally the overpowered channel wouldn't be adjacent to anything you cared about and you'd attenuate just the frequnecy range of the offending channel prior to the preamp.
Originally posted by dswallow
Ideally the overpowered channel wouldn't be adjacent to anything you cared about and you'd attenuate just the frequnecy range of the offending channel prior to the preamp.
In which case a notch trap is required.
jimc705 02-19-05, 09:15 AM Originally posted by Afergy
I'm trying to receive OTA HD signal and was told that the Terk TV55 antenna would work. I've tried the Terk TV44 and get NO signal.
I have Dish Network and the signal source is roughly 42 miles away. The Terk TV 55 does not say how far away the signal can be picked up. Does anyone know the capabilities i.e. miles of the 55? Or has anyone had a positive experience with this antenna.
Or can anyone recommend an OTA antenna that doesn't have to be mounted to the roof? :confused:
At 55 miles you going to need to go outside for reliable signal. The Channel Master 4228 antennas Direct DB8 or 91xg are some of the best antennas for digital signals at that distance. These are UHF only and we need your zip to know if you also need a VHF or a combo antenna. If you have access to your attic you may be able to put an antenna in the attic but attic munts may or may not work for the efficency of the antenna is reduced greatly. You may stand an outside chance with a Squareshooter from Winegard but at 45 miles is the extreme end for it. Get back with your zip and we'll see if someone can give you more help.
http://www.antennasdirect.com/LongRangeAntennas.htm
http://www.solidsignal.com/antennas/
http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?main_cat=3&CAT=&PROD=SS-1000
sregener 02-19-05, 10:00 AM Originally posted by Afergy
I have Dish Network and the signal source is roughly 42 miles away. The Terk TV 55 does not say how far away the signal can be picked up. Does anyone know the capabilities i.e. miles of the 55? Or has anyone had a positive experience with this antenna.
Or can anyone recommend an OTA antenna that doesn't have to be mounted to the roof? :confused:
The problem with any mile rating is that it's arbitrary. For instance, you can have an antenna that is rated for 100 mile reception and stick it inside a sealed metal container and get nothing at 1 mile. Or you can get one that is supposed to get a signal for 15 miles and, placed on the top of a tower that has line-of-sight, get a signal from 100 miles away.
There is no such thing as "average terrain." Every situation is different and every antenna style will perform differently.
That said, there are general rules that antennas and antenna design follow. The Terks (TV 44 and 55) are typically underperformers, especially for the price. Their design (a folded dipole) is *okay* for VHF, and usually attrocious for UHF. Since most digitals are UHF, you've got two strikes against you before you even start.
Since you bought an antenna that clips onto a dish, you probably already have a dish up. An antenna that looks similar to a dish is the Winegard Square Shooter. It's a stretch to work at 45 miles, but it's far better than the Terk. You *might* get something.
Still, at that kind of range, I'd avoid the "gimicky" antennas and get a real solid performer and put it on your rooftop. Look for a minimum of 10db gain, and 18db front-to-back ratio. If you can't find stats for gain and f/b ratio, the antenna is probably junk.
sregener 02-19-05, 10:05 AM Originally posted by fmx
I plan on connecting a 4228 and a 7-13 VHF yagi in my attic. I will run RG6 from the baluns to a UHF/VHF combiner and then down to my reciever. Are the lengths of RG6 from the UHF and VHF antenna to the combiner critical?
If you're using a UHF/VHF combiner (one with inputs labled UHF and VHF) the lengths shouldn't matter. If you're using a simple splitter as your combiner, the length is critical, but identical might not be the proper length. That's because the signals would need to be "in phase." Unless the active elements lined up precisely on the vertical plane, identical lengths would probably not be in phase at all.
I strongly recommend using a CM#0549 or similar (Channel Master preamps with separate inputs for UHF and VHF have the same electronics for filtering) when combining a VHF and UHF antenna. Although each antenna shouldn't get much on the other's frequency, they get enough that it could conflict in weak signal situations. I get hi-VHF with my UHF-only antenna, and even a little on lo-VHF. Better to filter that out and get a clean signal from one source than to risk mixing two.
Nitewatchman 02-19-05, 12:15 PM Originally posted by dswallow
You'd attenuate just the frequnecy range of the offending channel prior to the preamp.
Absolutely - Ideally, that is what you want to do ...
Originally posted by cpcat
In which case a notch trap is required.
You probably wouldn't want to use one of those however on the antenna system you need to use if you want to actually receive the "strong signal" involved ...
I use 6 different channel traps/notch filters here(One is a Blonder-Tongue MWT-3 - tunable notch filter for 174~216MHZ(ch 7-13) - can do about a -60db deep notch) prior to preamp to knock down strong nearby analog signals to keep preamp from overloading on my "hi-gain" antenna setup, and to improve the "situation" concerning receiving signals(generally "DX" stations) on 1st adjacent channels to those stations ...
But, I use a different antenna altogether in order to get useable signals from the channels/stations I'm trapping out on the other antenna setup...
Also, the notch filters such as B-T MWT series are designed to trap out a fairly "narrow" portion of the 6MHZ "slice" TV stations use. This works well with NTSC signals, because most of a NTSC analog station's "power" is concentrated in relatively narrow portions of the 6MHZ channel, on the audio/video and color burst carriers. The ATSC 8VSB signal, on the other hand, (except for a bit of a "spike" where the 8VSB pilot resides) pretty evenly uses the entire 6MHZ slice of RF bandwidth, and therefore I'm not sure how beneficial a trap such as a MWT would be to knock down a ATSC signal. If I recall correctly, the MWT effects at most about a 2MHZ slice of bandwidth. I did however, try tuning my MWT-3 to knock down a strong local digital on 10, and as far as the receiver's "signal quality meter" is concerned, it "looked like" I got rid of the station completely so I expect it might help to some extent, but I would still expect much of the signal(which just looks like "noise" on a NTSC receiver) was probably still getting through to the preamp ....
Another thing about a notch filter such as MWT-3 ... They are VERY sensitive, and it's best to use a spectrum analyzer or a signal meter(for analog) to tune them -- although you can do "seat of pants" tuning by seeing the "effect" they have on analog signals you're trying to trap out, and any weak signals that might be present on 1st adjacent channels - you'll probably need a "non screen muting" analog TV for this. I think I have mine set fairly close using that method, but it's hard to say for sure if they are as "effective" as would be the case If I set them with a spectrum analyzer or signal meter.
The B-T MWT series are very good filters, and they cost about $250 each, unless you can get lucky a find a good deal, or find them used/etc ....I'm not sure many people are going to want to pay that much at this point to knock down NTSC signals which will of course be gone after analog shut off. Winegard offers a inexpensive tunable UHF channel trap which works well - the UT2700 - I use one of these - details available on it on their website), and they used to make a TRT "HI-Q" series of tunable traps(I use 4 of these - 3 TRT LO's for lo-VHF tuned for ch 2, 1 TRT hi for Hi-VHF tuned for ch 7) for VHF, but I don't think they make them anymore .... The TRT series of traps each do about a -12.5db notch, and affect 2MHZ wide bandwidth. The UT2700 UHF channel trap has 2 sides -- each can be set for a "different" channel, or you can set them both to knock down one channel(or audio/video carrier from one channel), each side can do about a -8db notch that affects approx 2MHZ bandwidth.
I don't know if they even make a filter/channel trap "designed" for ATSC signals yet, I'm sure someone has some info. A "jointenna" seems like it would work in some circumstances. It is also possible to make 1/4 wave coax stub filter which will do about a 20db notch, although in my experiments with those they'll also likely delitioursly effect a bit wider "slice" than 6MHZ -- And, you have to be careful because harmonic frequencies 3/4 wavelentgh above are effected as well ... Here's some info(not particuarly detailed, and - you divide the frequency to be notched INTO 300, not 300 into the frequency as I interpeted the instructions) on how to make a 1/4 wave coax stub filter:
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/coaxfilter.html
Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Absolutely - Ideally, that is what you want to do ...
You probably wouldn't want to use one of those however on the antenna system you need to use if you want to actually receive the "strong signal" involved ...
The MHT-U has two adjustable filters of around -25db each so it's possible to just attenuate the channel and still receive it. It definitely isn't easy, though, and does require at least an analog TV which doesn't have a mute circuit.
Tinlee also makes standard as well as custom filters.
http://www.tinlee.com/
I have a low band-highband+UHF diplexer from them which works very well and seems very well made. It has around .5db through-loss according to the spec. sheet and was about 90 dollars CDN.
Nitewatchman 02-19-05, 05:58 PM cpcat,
Yes, the two adjustable filters on the MWT series of traps are so you can notch out either different portions of different channels, or for example(NTSC), for one channel use one side for the video carrier and one side for the audio carrier, or both for the video carrier/etc.
I've personally not seen it work out so the result on the trapped out channel would be what I would call "watchable" with the filter still being very effective, but I'll take your word for it, and I've only used the MWT filter for VHF, and my purpose(with all the traps I'm using) is to knock down a few of the strongest signals in my area as much as is possible .... Even though, a station uses a 6MHZ slice of UHF spectrum the same way it does on VHF ... and remember, you are not notching out the entire 6MHZ wide bandwidth with the MWT series of filters, only portions of it ....
I've also posted on the Chicago forum...
I live 47 miles to the northwest of Chicago - the next town north of Gurnee. I just purchased a 36 element from Radio shack. Put it in the attic with no luck - no channels. Could not find a 7777 so I just picked up a phillips pre amp as my run is 100' of quad shielded RG6. No signals. Tried to run a short line to a test TV - no signal. Moved the antenna to the roof - no TV signals but I now am picking up audio from Waukegan regional airport on the VHF's. At one point today I actually got a clear signal from WGN, WLS and a faint one from WBBM. Also had a host of UHF's. Got excited and hooked the signal to my 921 E* DVR to see if it could find any digital signals. It saw a bunch of analogs but no digital ones. When I put the analog WGN on the screen it was all snow. Moved the cable back to the test set and nothing but air traffic controlles and black screens that change when mics are keyed.
Does anyone have any solutions besides seeing how far the antenna will fly from the top of my roof? I've missed the Super Bowl in HD, will miss the Daytona 500 tomorrow now and am pretty frustrated.
I'd apprecaite any help.
Originally posted by Nitewatchman
cpcat,
Yes, the two adjustable filters on the MWT series of traps are so you can notch out either different portions of different channels, or for example(NTSC), for one channel use one side for the video carrier and one side for the audio carrier, or both for the video carrier/etc.
I've personally not seen it work out so the result on the trapped out channel would be what I would call "watchable" with the filter still being very effective, but I'll take your word for it, and I've only used the MWT filter for VHF, and my purpose(with all the traps I'm using) is to knock down a few of the strongest signals in my area as much as is possible .... Even though, a station uses a 6MHZ slice of UHF spectrum the same way it does on VHF ... and remember, you are not notching out the entire 6MHZ wide bandwidth with the MWT series of filters, only portions of it ....
The VHF models have much narrower notches. The MHT-U is -12db over a 3 MHz wide notch. The notch widths of the vhf models are in khz. See http://www.blondertongue.com/media/pdfs/catalog_classes/headend/mwt.pdf
Nitewatchman 02-19-05, 08:02 PM Cpcat,
Yes, they are different and I could see where UHF could be more "watchable" in some cases depending upon how it's adjusted. And, I can tell you the same is true for Winegard's UT2700 tunable UHF trap which at best does a -16db notch if both sides of it are used on the same channel - say adusted for the video carrier which will just "snow it up" a little more than anything else .... but still, you would have to have a "even" amount of attenuation across the 6MHZ channel for it "perfectly" and evenly atteunate the channel, as would be the case with a simple attenuator(which would also of course "attuentate" all other frequencies as well) -- The MWT traps don't do that, which especially is probably not a good thing if you are trying to knock down an ATSC signal(which for the most part pretty evenly uses the entire 6MHZ channel) a "little bit" and still be able to receive it "perfectly" ... The notch is "deeper" for a narrower amount of bandwidth, even with the MWT-U. Which is what you want if you want to knock down a NTSC station as much as possible, since most of the RF energy from NTSC station is contained in relatively narrow sections of bandwidth within the 6MHZ wide channel ...
For instance, If you see by the specs, The VHF models affect only 2MHZ wide notch at -3db, whearas The UHF model affects an entire 10MHZ wide notch at -3db(obviously meaning a portion of first adjacent channels are slightly effected, about as much as a 2 way spitter, especially if you add in the insertion loss ).
The UHF model notches 3MHZ at -12db as you said and the specs indicate, but it has a DEEPER notch, 1.8MHZ wide at -20db, and since it shows a Maximum notch of -60db(but doesn't show the amount of bandwidth affected), I think you can assume that for a certian amount of bandwidth, if you tune both sides of the trap to the same frequency(say to knock down the NTSC video carrier as much as possible) you'll have a -60db notch on a certian amount of bandwidth, probably something around 800KHZ~1MHZ wide or so would be my best guess ...
sregener: Thanks for your response. My homeowners association is telling me I can't install an antenna on my roof. I thought I read somewhere on one of the antenna websites that associations can't dictate installing an antenna on the roof. Do you know if this information is true?
I'm not sure when looking at antenna spec's what's the best scenario. Example: 10db or 20db.
Example F/B ratio.
How high should an antenna be placed? I own a single story.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.
dswallow 02-20-05, 04:35 AM Originally posted by Afergy
sregener: Thanks for your response. My homeowners association is telling me I can't install an antenna on my roof. I thought I read somewhere on one of the antenna websites that associations can't dictate installing an antenna on the roof. Do you know if this information is true?
HOA's are severely limited in the restrictions which can be placed on antennas nowadays; they're basically left to bullying uninformed people. As long as you meet the rules set forth by the FCC, HOA's can't dictate much anymore.
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html
I live in ZIP 13323 approx 30-40 miles from the towers. Its hilly terrain here and im not at one of the highest elevations in the area. I have been messing with the DTV signals for the last year and have tried the following equipment/setup.
Zenith HDV420
Samsung 351
Samsung 165
Channel Master 4248, 4228
Winegard PR-9032
Channel Master 7777 pre-amp
Rooftop install with rotor ~ 35 ft above ground.
It appears that for my location the Yagi's work better than the bowtie, presumably due to multipath. I have not been sucessful with either of the Samsung's, they just cant lock and hold the signals.
The 420 with the Winegard has been pretty good on most channels. However, I still suffer from random dropouts and pixellation. I recently picked up an LG4200A receiver and its pretty good except it completely rejects one of the stations that I used to get with the 420.
I am considering a different antenna, perhaps the DAT-75, JBX-21, or XG91. I was hoping that one of these designs may just be that much better than the Winegard to allow for better success. I really cant get any more height without erecting a tower.
** Update **
I decided to try the CM 4228 8-bay with the new receiver (4200a) yesterday at the same location before going out and purchasing another Yagi or ganging two together.
Well, the improvement in reception has been dramatic. Channels 17,25,33 are coming in rock solid. I can now receive channel 47 (CBS) well, I could not even get it to decode with the 9032.
Channel 54 is still receivable but had some artifacts last night. I need to use the rotor to tune between 47 and 54. The antenna is not quite as strong on the higher channels. I need to mess with the location of the antenna a bit more to see if I can improve on this.
Now I am thinking that the DB8 may just be the "right" antenna for my situation and receiver. Apparently, it doesnt suffer from some of the inherent design flaws and may just get me the extra bit of gain on chanells above 50.
Does anyone have hands on experience with the DB8 vs the 4228. I could not find a review on the net.
Robert George 02-20-05, 10:12 AM Does anyone have hands on experience with the DB8 vs the 4228. I could not find a review on the net.
I have been using a 4228 for about 8 months. Just a week ago, I found the DB8 while searching information on antennas. I decided to try it as the DB8 claims higher gain than the CM4228.
Bottom line, I wasted a hundred bucks. The DB8 was markedly worse than the 4228. Only the strong stations were still clear. Of the two weaker stations in my area that I was hoping to improve reception of, I lost one entirely and the other was unwatchable.
CM4228 wins by knockout in the first round. :)
I am, however, now considering a quality preamp on the 4228 to see if I get help on my weaker stations.
Hawkster69 02-20-05, 11:57 AM Originally posted by dswallow
[B]HOA's are severely limited in the restrictions which can be placed on antennas nowadays; they're basically left to bullying uninformed people. As long as you meet the rules set forth by the FCC, HOA's can't dictate much anymore.
B]
Q: I want a conventional "stick" antenna to receive a distant over-the air television signal. Does the rule apply to me?
A: No. The rule does not apply to television antennas used to receive a distant signal.
whats considered a stick antenna and a distant signal?
I Need a Red antenna, would that be considered a distant signal? I live in a mobile home park and antenna's are not allowed, depending on how you interrupt that Question answer depends on whether the rule applys..
I live in the Chico, CA area (95973). I have a Terk TV-50 mounted in my attic connected to my Sony 55XS955. Analog reception is OK. Reception of the digital channels (Fox, CBS, NBC) in Chico is not generally a problem despite their low power. PBS and ABC come from Redding which is 67 miles away and are also at low power. All stations are within a 90 degree arc from me. I haven't considered changing my antenna until recently. The Redding stations are transmitting HDTV, Chico's are not.
I recently installed a DirecTV HD-Tivo unit. It must have a better tuner because I can get a picture from PBS and it is HDTV. Its not watchable but it is there. I still get nothing from ABC. When I check signal strength on ABC, it shows but is low (around 20%), PBS is around 45-50%.
The terrain here is flat with the transmitters on mountains. The Redding transmitters are 1900 meters above sea level, I am at about 100 meters above sea level. There are no mountains between.
So, I still want to use the attic mount (asthetics). I realize I won't get the full potential in the attic but will changing the Terk TV-50 to an AntennasDirect DB4 or DB8 increase my chances of a watchable signal from Redding? A rotator is also not a possibility right now as it would be very difficult to get a control wire to my living room. Would the beamwidth of the new antenna be too narrow to receive the closer stations if it is aimed toward Redding. I don't know the characteristics or specifications of the Terk antenna. It is a powered antenna, whatever that means. Would I benefit from a preamp as well? I would like to stick with antennasdirect because if it doesn't work I could return the antenna.
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Chris
holl_ands 02-20-05, 05:00 PM FYI: UHF ANTENNA COMPARISON PLOTS.
I finally finished and posted an Excel spreadsheet, with comparison plots, listing the Gain, Front/Back Ratio and Beamwidth for over two dozen UHF Antennas.
It also includes a comparison of NEC simulation data found at www.hdtvprimer.com to several different antenna types.
Sometimes it agrees, and sometimes not.
Click on fol:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2840.html?1108936241
fay28301 02-20-05, 06:23 PM This is for MAX HD from fay28301. Thanks for the link on where I can find a CM 4251, I am going to send them an email when I get off of here. I found an old one that is rather oxidized for next to nothing, but I would rather use a new one than go through the trouble of cleaning the old one up. As far as that goes, I don't even know what to use to get the oxidation off of it, so I figured that I would sand & polyurathane it, unless someone can tell me something better to clean it with. The reason I was looking for one, is that I stay near Fayetteville, N.C., (Hope Mills) which is about 70mi from any of the major networks which come out of Raleigh, N.C. I can get all of them except the WB & UPN stations, which come & go. No trouble with any of them on analog. I used to have a CM4251 until it got destroyed in a house fire. As I said, for sheer gain it was the best UHF antenna ever made---but---(always one of them, ain't it) it suffered mightily from multipath interference due to the way the reflector was made. The feed would pick up any nearby adjacent stations through the screen while trying to pickup the far off ones through the front. I don't know how much this will affect digital reception with this antenna, but it is worth a try. Now I have a CM4228A and a CM7775 preamp about 40ft. up, with RG-11 coax downlead. I have a U.S. Digital STB which seems to have an excellent tuner in it. I didn't really want to go any higher (aggravation of have to buy & install a tower), so I figured on a better antenna. I tried 2 DAT75's which had a combined gain comparable to one 4228. They are stored in my attic now. Sorry for being late on the reply to you.
fay28301
sregener 02-20-05, 06:28 PM Originally posted by Hawkster69
Q: I want a conventional "stick" antenna to receive a distant over-the air television signal. Does the rule apply to me?
A: No. The rule does not apply to television antennas used to receive a distant signal.
whats considered a stick antenna and a distant signal?
I Need a Red antenna, would that be considered a distant signal? I live in a mobile home park and antenna's are not allowed, depending on how you interrupt that Question answer depends on whether the rule applys..
Basically, the FCC's ruling doesn't allow you to put up an antenna with the express purpose of getting a station that is outside of your DMA (typically more than 60 miles away.) All you have to avoid doing is say that you're putting it up to get anything but local stations. If you get more than that, that's just a "bonus."
A "stick antenna" is probably a conventional yagi-style antenna. I hope they're not talking about simple, single dipoles.
The onus is on them to prove that their rule doesn't prevent you from getting local reception at an adequate level. If their restrictions reduce the quality of your signal from local stations, their restrictions are illegal. And since requiring a smaller antenna will mean a reduction in quality of signal, they can't restrict the size of the antenna. Local codes can apply if you're more than 12' above the roof line, but even HOA covenants don't apply to antennas placed more than 12' above the roof line.
A red antenna is fairly large, and you'll probably face some resistance. But the stations listed as red are not usually considered distant. That's usually for antennas in the violet range.
I think the laws would be interpreted as a renter for most mobile home communities.
If you put an antenna up and the association decides to fight it, you can request a declaratory ruling from the FCC. This process takes about 18 months, but the upside is that your antenna *stays* until they make their ruling. If you lose (and I have yet to hear of anyone losing) with the FCC, you have 30 days to remove the antenna without penalty.
sregener 02-20-05, 06:31 PM Originally posted by cmassa
So, I still want to use the attic mount (asthetics). I realize I won't get the full potential in the attic but will changing the Terk TV-50 to an AntennasDirect DB4 or DB8 increase my chances of a watchable signal from Redding? A rotator is also not a possibility right now as it would be very difficult to get a control wire to my living room. Would the beamwidth of the new antenna be to narrow to receive the closer stations if it is aimed toward Redding. I don't know the characteristics or specifications of the Terk antenna. It is a powered antenna, whatever that means. Would I benefit from a preamp as well?
Powered = amplified. More amplification would likely make things worse.
A DB4 has a wider beamwidth and might be good enough to get everything, but it's not a sure thing. The DB4 is a much better antenna than your TV-50.
Originally posted by fay28301
I tried 2 DAT75's which had a combined gain comparable to one 4228. They are stored in my attic now. Sorry for being late on the reply to you.
fay28301
How did you stack them?
My experience is that two DAT75's stacked horizontally outperform the 4228 by a fair margin. It's likely as much or more due to the narrowed beamwidth as opposed to increased gain.
Originally posted by fay28301
This is for MAX HD from fay28301. Thanks for the link on where I can find a CM 4251, I am going to send them an email when I get off of here. I found an old one that is rather oxidized for next to nothing, but I would rather use a new one than go through the trouble of cleaning the old one up. As far as that goes, I don't even know what to use to get the oxidation off of it, so I figured that I would sand & polyurathane it, unless someone can tell me something better to clean it with. The reason I was looking for one, is that I stay near Fayetteville, N.C., (Hope Mills) which is about 70mi from any of the major networks which come out of Raleigh, N.C. I can get all of them except the WB & UPN stations, which come & go. No trouble with any of them on analog. I used to have a CM4251 until it got destroyed in a house fire. As I said, for sheer gain it was the best UHF antenna ever made---but---(always one of them, ain't it) it suffered mightily from multipath interference due to the way the reflector was made. The feed would pick up any nearby adjacent stations through the screen while trying to pickup the far off ones through the front. I don't know how much this will affect digital reception with this antenna, but it is worth a try. Now I have a CM4228A and a CM7775 preamp about 40ft. up, with RG-11 coax downlead. I have a U.S. Digital STB which seems to have an excellent tuner in it. I didn't really want to go any higher (aggravation of have to buy & install a tower), so I figured on a better antenna. I tried 2 DAT75's which had a combined gain comparable to one 4228. They are stored in my attic now. Sorry for being late on the reply to you.
fay28301
Both those stations are throwing out a paltry 9Kw signal.I'm surprised you're seeing anything at all.Give them a call and tell them to get with the program.
A pair of DAT75's vertically stacked at 3ft. apart will perform better than the 4228 or the 4251,or at least that's what I've observed in this particular location.
Everton66 02-21-05, 12:08 PM Hi
I am located in Alexandria VA and am currently getting reception on all locals using a Radio Shack 15-2160. However I would like to pick up WNVT which is at 248 degrees at 19 miles. Most of the other locals are in 29 to 39 degree 7-12 mile range. However I am picking up WMPT at 75 degrees and 32 miles although it is borderline.
Having scanned this site I came up with two solutions:
1. Add another identical antenna pointing in the direction of WNVT and risk phasing problems. I know I could add a CM filter to filter the other channels but worried that I might lose enought gain in the extra connections to mess up my existing reception.
2. Try a bow tie such as DB4 with the screen removed to see if I could pick up the other channel and risk multipath problems.
Any opinions. Couldn't find any specs other than maximum gain for the DB4 on the antennasdirect site. Anybody have the specs or opinions on CM4225 vs DB4?
Thanks.
sregener 02-21-05, 03:53 PM Originally posted by Everton66
2. Try a bow tie such as DB4 with the screen removed to see if I could pick up the other channel and risk multipath problems.
Any opinions. Couldn't find any specs other than maximum gain for the DB4 on the antennasdirect site. Anybody have the specs or opinions on CM4225 vs DB4?
I'd be surprised if the DB4 would work for you. With or without the screen. It's maximum theoretical gain is about half the CM4228 (or 3db less.) Since the CM4228's theoretical gain is 16db, the DB4 can't have more than 13db. Because of losses from the balun and connectors, the DB4 is probably somewhere around 11db of gain. The 4228's is closer to 14db.
Everton66 02-21-05, 04:25 PM quote from sregener:
"I'd be surprised if the DB4 would work for you. With or without the screen. It's maximum theoretical gain is about half the CM4228 (or 3db less.) Since the CM4228's theoretical gain is 16db, the DB4 can't have more than 13db. Because of losses from the balun and connectors, the DB4 is probably somewhere around 11db of gain. The 4228's is closer to 14db."
The antenna I am currently using successfully is a Radio Shack 15-2160 and has these specs
UHF Band Chan. Average Gain:.........................................9.5 dB
Median Av. F/B Ratio:.............................................UHF 14 dB
Average Half - Power Beam Width:...................UHF 47 degrees at CH. 30
I thought the DB4 would be an improvement on that, but the web site only lists maximum gain (13.5dB) and as you have pointed out a useful 11dB. I don't want to get much bigger than the CM4225. If I am not gaining much then I will probably leave as is and try combining two of the same.
Originally posted by Sgalat
I've also posted on the Chicago forum...
I live 47 miles to the northwest of Chicago - the next town north of Gurnee. I just purchased a 36 element from Radio shack. Put it in the attic with no luck - no channels. Could not find a 7777 so I just picked up a phillips pre amp as my run is 100' of quad shielded RG6. No signals. Tried to run a short line to a test TV - no signal. Moved the antenna to the roof - no TV signals but I now am picking up audio from Waukegan regional airport on the VHF's. At one point today I actually got a clear signal from WGN, WLS and a faint one from WBBM. Also had a host of UHF's. Got excited and hooked the signal to my 921 E* DVR to see if it could find any digital signals. It saw a bunch of analogs but no digital ones. When I put the analog WGN on the screen it was all snow. Moved the cable back to the test set and nothing but air traffic controlles and black screens that change when mics are keyed.
Does anyone have any solutions besides seeing how far the antenna will fly from the top of my roof? I've missed the Super Bowl in HD, will miss the Daytona 500 tomorrow now and am pretty frustrated.
I'd apprecaite any help.
The first thing I'd do is get a 7777. They're available at SolidSignal.com as well as from Starkelectronics and Warrenelectronics. The next thing is to be sure you're aiming precisely. Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and put in your coordinates in decimal form for precise bearings/distances. A good place to get your lat/longitude is http://terraserver.microsoft.com/. That's not a bad antenna choice considering you need low band (vhf 2-6) for Chicago digitals, but the problem you may run into is it may or may not be adequate for UHF and you may have to end up using separate antennas. The 7777 will allow you to do this easily as it has an internal VHF/UHF diplexer. Try the RS antenna first with the 7777 and go from there. You can easily add a CM 4228 later for UHF and keep the RS antenna but use it for VHF only.
The 7777 has to be configured for using the combo vhf/uhf antenna. I believe it may come from the factory set to do so via the "combined" input but you'll need to open it up and check to be sure. I'd set the FM trap to "in" as well.
sregener 02-21-05, 05:26 PM Originally posted by Everton66
The antenna I am currently using successfully is a Radio Shack 15-2160 and has these specs
UHF Band Chan. Average Gain:.........................................9.5 dB
Median Av. F/B Ratio:.............................................UHF 14 dB
I thought the DB4 would be an improvement on that, but the web site only lists maximum gain (13.5dB) and as you have pointed out a useful 11dB. I don't want to get much bigger than the CM4225. If I am not gaining much then I will probably leave as is and try combining two of the same.
I think Radio Shack's numbers are usually highly inflated. Knowing the 15-2160 as I do, I'd be surprised if it has 9.5 db of gain on any frequency. More likely, it's a 7-8db of "real gain."
Joining two identical antennas together in a stack will get you no more than (and probably slightly less than) 3db of gain. It will get you a hefty increase of front-to-back ratio as well as a significant decrease in beamwidth. Those are good things, no doubt about it. But they're going to be larger than 1 4228 or DB8, because you're going to have to mount them a minimum of 30" apart.
If you're pointing the antennas in different directions to receive stations in two areas, it doesn't matter if they're the same, different, red, green, blue, or coated in a special polymer. They're going to mess each other's signals up unless you use a Jointenna or similar filtering mechanism. You can get cable lengths perfect, place them perfectly, and still have them mess each other up. I've said it a million times and I'll keep saying it until I'm blue in the face: You cannot combine two antennas designed to receive the same frequency, point them in different directions, connect them via a simple splitter/combiner and *expect* to get good results.
So I guess, in the immortal words of Clint Eastwood, "Do you feel lucky?"
dapack5 02-21-05, 11:41 PM i tried to post this question last night and today i can't find my post:
i recently aquired a winegard UHF antenna- model U-630. is anyone familiar with this model and how well it works? i can't find any info anywhere on it, the source i aquired it from says that it's a 120 mile range antenna. it's approximately 72" longe and looks like an extremely large yagi type antenna. i would like to know if it's even worth installing or not.
thanks in advance
sregener 02-22-05, 09:57 AM Originally posted by dapack5
i tried to post this question last night and today i can't find my post:
i recently aquired a winegard UHF antenna- model U-630. ...the source i aquired it from says that it's a 120 mile range antenna. it's approximately 72" longe and looks like an extremely large yagi type antenna. i would like to know if it's even worth installing or not.
If you have a digital camera, a shot would help us. A search on Winegard U-630 turned up zero hits on Google, a sure sign that the model number isn't correct.
If you can't take a picture, take a look at the Winegard website and see which antenna looks most like it. That will help us assess its abilities.
Most likely, you've got a UHF/VHF combo, and the 120 mile range is for the VHF side. No UHF antenna is capable of an advertised range greater than 60 miles.
bbguy4701 02-22-05, 10:28 AM Hello can some one tell me how to figure out this.
If at ground level how far is the Line of Sight. And if I was on a 2 story house, or if I added a pole at 20 feet above my house?
I am looking to pick up at 90 to 100 mile.
Thank You
Originally posted by sregener
If you're using a UHF/VHF combiner (one with inputs labled UHF and VHF) the lengths shouldn't matter. If you're using a simple splitter as your combiner, the length is critical, but identical might not be the proper length. That's because the signals would need to be "in phase." Unless the active elements lined up precisely on the vertical plane, identical lengths would probably not be in phase at all.
I strongly recommend using a CM#0549 or similar (Channel Master preamps with separate inputs for UHF and VHF have the same electronics for filtering) when combining a VHF and UHF antenna. Although each antenna shouldn't get much on the other's frequency, they get enough that it could conflict in weak signal situations. I get hi-VHF with my UHF-only antenna, and even a little on lo-VHF. Better to filter that out and get a clean signal from one source than to risk mixing two.
Will a pre-amp survive in attic ambient temperatures?
sregener 02-22-05, 12:04 PM Originally posted by bbguy4701
If at ground level how far is the Line of Sight. And if I was on a 2 story house, or if I added a pole at 20 feet above my house?
I am looking to pick up at 90 to 100 mile.
Plug in your numbers here:
http://www.vwlowen.demon.co.uk/java/horizon.htm
For a broadcasting antenna at average height (approximately 400 meters) you need to go at least 200 meters to get line of sight.
90-100 miles for UHF is very difficult unless the broadcasting tower is very tall (such as the top of a mountain.) Things such as topography between you and the desired station, as well as weather conditions, are going to be far more important than antenna height. But doubling your antenna height AGL has a major boost to reception strength. Every time you do it, it's like going from a UHF loop at the lower location to the best UHF antenna out there at the upper, with no change in hardware.
I'm 75 or so miles from my desired stations, have a 54' tower, and I still don't get reliable reception all the time from those stations. I do have one station that is about 85 miles away and it oftentimes does come it. But I'd never count on it.
Bill Johnson 02-22-05, 12:57 PM originally posted by bbguy4701
If at ground level how far is the Line of Sight. And if I was on a 2 story house, or if I added a pole at 20 feet above my house?
I am looking to pick up at 90 to 100 mile.
One important thing in fringe reception is the elevation or altitude of your location. I'm almost 1800 ft. above sea level and rock solid pick up UHF digital stations 125 miles away with attic antenna. I'm a strong believer in T&E (trial and error) for antenna techniques.
Originally posted by sregener
Plug in your numbers here:
http://www.vwlowen.demon.co.uk/java/horizon.htm
That's a great little calculator. Too bad it doesn't take into account intervening topography. I know of software you can buy that will do this but I've never seen anywhere free online you can do it. The software I've seen is called "TOPO USA terrain" I think and a local AVS'er sent me some cool profiles using it several mos. back for my location. Sorry for the zip file but it was the only way I could get it to upload. You have to save it to view it.
fay28301 02-22-05, 04:42 PM This is for MAX HD from fay28301 again. I read your advice about using the DAT75's again and am going to give them another try. When I stacked them before, 3ft. apart, 40 ft. up, I used two pieces of RG-6QS the same length from each antenna to a RS gold combiner, then from there into my preamp. As I said before, the gain was comparable to one CM4228, why?, I don't know, however if you have any suggestions or can tell me what I did wrong about the previous installation PLEASE let me know. I will wait before installing them until I hear from you. By the way, The WB must have boosted power, as I can receive them wtw & ttt now.
fay28301
I just put up a new antenna (Wingard 8 bay double bow tie). I used the pre amp from my old antenna (blonder tongue vhf/uhf about 3 1/2 years old-don't know the specs--someone else installed my last antenna and I don't have any documentaion). One channel is problematic. Would, possibly, a UHF only pre amp (such as the CM 7775) make an improvement
(I know I will have to try it to know for sure). I probably need to replace the pre amp anyway. It's been baking in the Alabama sun for a good while.
I need to put a little more height on my antenna. When I bought my mast materials last Sunday the store only had three mast segments (a little over 5 ft each). I think I can add one more and still have a stable set up it is a ground mount attached to my soffitt--the house is one story). But anyway, since all my digital channels are UHF I thought I would try a UHF only pre amp.
Originally posted by fay28301
This is for MAX HD from fay28301 again. I read your advice about using the DAT75's again and am going to give them another try. When I stacked them before, 3ft. apart, 40 ft. up, I used two pieces of RG-6QS the same length from each antenna to a RS gold combiner, then from there into my preamp. As I said before, the gain was comparable to one CM4228, why?, I don't know, however if you have any suggestions or can tell me what I did wrong about the previous installation PLEASE let me know. I will wait before installing them until I hear from you. By the way, The WB must have boosted power, as I can receive them wtw & ttt now.
fay28301
It's hard to say why they didn't work better.Placement issue?Propagation issues over a short time period?When I had a vertical stack of them on the tower,spaced at 39",I had a lot of intermod and adjacent channel overload,due to the increased gain and decided to stack them horizontally.Less overload and better directivity.
The RS gold combiner wasn't a V/U combiner was it?That would NOT work.I always use the cheap 5-900Mhz two-way splitters and found they work as good as anything else.
dapack5 02-22-05, 09:39 PM Originally posted by sregener
If you have a digital camera, a shot would help us. A search on Winegard U-630 turned up zero hits on Google, a sure sign that the model number isn't correct.
If you can't take a picture, take a look at the Winegard website and see which antenna looks most like it. That will help us assess its abilities.
Most likely, you've got a UHF/VHF combo, and the 120 mile range is for the VHF side. No UHF antenna is capable of an advertised range greater than 60 miles.
i did find some info today from an ex-local dealer. it's definetly UHF only. this antenna has not been built for over 15 years now, it has 2 wing nuts on the top side of the antenna and has 2 vhf shorting stubbs, to connect a VHF antenna. on the bottom side it has the main lead going to the TV or pre-amp. when this antenna was new it was sold locally as a fringe long range antenna estimated to be a 120 mile UHF antenna.
my radio shack power amp and pre amp apparantly isn't all that hot ,so could i possibly do better with the channel master or winegard pre amp/ amp unit?
Sorry to rehash a question I asked a bit ago but I need further info on beamwidth of antennas, specifically the DB4 or DB8. My previous post stated that I have recently been able to receive my PBS station using an attic mounted Terk TV50. I'm fairly confident I can do better than the Terk by changing antennas. It is best during a storm but I can get an intermittent picture other days. I have not yet even seen ABC (low power). Here is my info from antennaweb.org (zip 95973 in Chico, CA)
KHSL-DT 43.1 CBS CHICO CA 30° 14.1 43
KNVN-DT 36.1 NBC CHICO CA 326° 32.1 36
KCVU-DT 30.1 FOX PARADISE CA 29° 14.6 20
KRCR-DT 34.1 ABC REDDING CA 308° 67.0 34
KIXE-DT 9.1 PBS REDDING CA 308° 67.0 18
CBS, NBC, and Fox are not difficult to receive. CBS and Fox are about 90 degrees from the Redding stations. If I switch to a DB4 or DB8, should I still be able to receive the closer stations with the antenna pointed at Redding? I currently can't put in a rotator. I have very favorable terrain here. CBS, NBS, and Fox are at 3500-4000 ft elevation. I am at about 400 ft. No mountains are in the way. ABC and PBS, although at 67 miles are at almost 6300 ft. Line of site over the horizon should not be an issue (I think). Oh, which would be better in my situation, the DB4 or DB8? If more information is needed, please ask.
Thanks again,
Chris
Originally posted by SD4934
I just put up a new antenna (Wingard 8 bay double bow tie). I used the pre amp from my old antenna (blonder tongue vhf/uhf about 3 1/2 years old-don't know the specs--someone else installed my last antenna and I don't have any documentaion). One channel is problematic. Would, possibly, a UHF only pre amp (such as the CM 7775) make an improvement
(I know I will have to try it to know for sure). I probably need to replace the pre amp anyway. It's been baking in the Alabama sun for a good while.
I need to put a little more height on my antenna. When I bought my mast materials last Sunday the store only had three mast segments (a little over 5 ft each). I think I can add one more and still have a stable set up it is a ground mount attached to my soffitt--the house is one story). But anyway, since all my digital channels are UHF I thought I would try a UHF only pre amp.
That's probably a pretty good preamp. I'm not sure you'd see much improvement with the CM 777x series, but you might. My 7777 gave me a small but significant improvement over a Blonder Tongue Vaulter III plus. If you decide on a new preamp, I'd get the 7777 just to have VHF capability as it's about the same cost. The performance on UHF will be the same. If your current preamp has a 300 ohm input, that may be a small advantage in not having to use a balun. The 777x series has 75 ohm inputs so you'll likely incur some minimal loss through the conversion which may offset any improvement the new preamp might give you.
What channel is giving you the problem? The Winegard 8-bay has a rep for not being very good in the upper UHF range. It's also possible the channel in question is still at low power or you have co-channel interference from an analog. Here's a computer simulated comparison of various antennas including the Winegard 8800:http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
Assuming you're not using a rotor, the CM 4228 is pretty hard to beat for flat response up and down the UHF range. It can be hard on a rotor, though.
holl_ands 02-23-05, 02:29 AM Did you see my post on 2/20/05 @ 2pm?
I posted the fol. link to an Excel spreadsheet that I prepared wherein the Gain, F/B Ratio and Beamwidth are plotted for over two dozen antennas, based on spec sheet data.
I also included a comparison to the NEC simulation data found on the hdtvprimer site for several different antennas.
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2840.html?1109029581#POST15793
The spec sheets for the DB4 and DB8 only indicate a single gain figure, which is probably the maximum reached at the best frequency, expressed in the more optimistic dBi (relative to isotropic, i.e. equal in all three dimensions), which is 2.15 dB higher than the more commonly used dBp (relative to a dipole) units.
To get a good idea of performance, compare the DB4/DB8 to other similar 4-Bay and 8-Bay models from C-M and W-G.
holl_ands 02-23-05, 02:38 AM re. UHF Propagation Prediction....FREE DOWNLOAD:
Dave Lung's latest TV TECHNOLOGY column described SPLAT!, a free Linux based program which will do UHF Propagation Prediction with Diffraction Loss due to terrain, based on the Longley-Rice model.
Explanation and downloading links are in :
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/F_Lung-02.02.05.shtml
[QUOTE]Originally posted by holl_ands
Did you see my post on 2/20/05 @ 2pm?
Yes, I've looked through this and while it is good information, I'm looking for some real world recommendations. From the information I see the DB4 should be less directional than the DB8 with less gain but could I reliably receive stations spaced 90 degrees apart without a rotor? Is there another antenna which may be better?
Chris
holl_ands 02-23-05, 10:02 AM Directional antennas nearly always have a NULL at 90 degrees.
So unless you are close enough to use an omni-directional antenna,
the best you can do is to operate way down on the sidelobes of
the antenna.....or go to multiple antennas.
Munkeung 02-24-05, 09:55 AM Winegard YA-6260, 6 element low VHF antenna.
Anybody has experience with this?
I'm thinking of trying this in the attic to pick up channel 3 signal (WBBM-DT, Chicago) 30 miles from the tower.
greywolf 02-24-05, 10:08 AM It looks like WBBM will be moving to high VHF in a couple of years. A low VHF antenna is likely to have a short lifespan. On the plus side, you could replace it with a high VHF antenna at the appropriate time and have a smaller antenna for the duration assuming you already have a UHF antenna going. Otherwise, a full spectrum VHF or combo may make more economic sense.
Munkeung 02-24-05, 10:33 AM Originally posted by greywolf
It looks like WBBM will be moving to high VHF in a couple of years. A low VHF antenna is likely to have a short lifespan. On the plus side, you could replace it with a high VHF antenna at the appropriate time and have a smaller antenna for the duration assuming you already have a UHF antenna going. Otherwise, a full spectrum VHF or combo may make more economic sense.
I do have a combo antenna in the attic right now and can pull in all stations. It's a 15 year old RS. I don't know the model number but it's about 12' long and the V shaped (in the vertical plane) VHF portion. I could pick up WBBM-DT with the Samsung 151 (with occasional dropouts) but the signal is nominally below the threshold(?) for my Samsung 351 (that's another story). I'm thinking of building a PVR using the new MyHD 130 card and want to optimize the reception before I do it. I don't think I can improve the UHF reception much and was just thinking whether a VHF low or single channel antenna would help with WBBM. I found 5 element VHF low Antennacraft at Starkelectronics for about $21 dollars but they emailed me that they don't carry it anymore but they do have the 6 element Winegard. The other option is to try the V4 from Antennasdirect but they don't show any spec info. I understand WBBM is moving but spending <$50 to watch CSI and Saturday college football for 2 years with my front projector is worth it. Of course, the other option is to replace the 351 with a better tuner but that's more $.:)
Originally posted by Munkeung
Winegard YA-6260, 6 element low VHF antenna.
Anybody has experience with this?
I'm thinking of trying this in the attic to pick up channel 3 signal (WBBM-DT, Chicago) 30 miles from the tower.
This will work, but it's gonna be *big*. I'm currently picking up an analog 3 pretty decent at 130 miles with a modified CM 3016 (Lowe's). The VHF elements are designed to be swept forward, but I turned them back perpendicular to the boom and it makes this a pretty darn good low band antenna. In an attic, you could just adjust the elements and forget it with no worry for wind. I had to put small set screws in to hold the elements in place 'cause mine is outside. Also, since you don't damage the antenna (but be careful) you could simply return it if it doesn't work.
The bonus is that it still seems to work pretty well for high band vhf as well.
Edit: I didn't see that you are already using a large combo antenna. I doubt the CM 3016 modified is likely to give you much improvement, although for me it works better on low band than the VHF section of a Winegard 8200p. If you are having problems even with the large combo, you might need to consider going outside.
sregener 02-24-05, 12:00 PM Originally posted by greywolf
It looks like WBBM will be moving to high VHF in a couple of years.
Well, their first choice is channel 11. If that fails, they're after channel 3.
Why would WTTW give up their lucrative hi-VHF digital channel for UHF channel 47? Did WBBM make a deal?
greywolf 02-24-05, 01:39 PM WBBM once requested use of a UHF channel that was not yet in service from another station but the price was too high. Maybe they got a better deal from WTTW. Maybe the head honcho at WTTW has a Silver Sensor on his TV top with a good WAF. Whatever the reason, some sort of deal is in the works.
Munkeung 02-24-05, 01:54 PM Originally posted by cpcat
This will work, but it's gonna be *big*. I'm currently picking up an analog 3 pretty decent at 130 miles with a modified CM 3016 (Lowe's). The VHF elements are designed to be swept forward, but I turned them back perpendicular to the boom and it makes this a pretty darn good low band antenna. In an attic, you could just adjust the elements and forget it with no worry for wind. I had to put small set screws in to hold the elements in place 'cause mine is outside. Also, since you don't damage the antenna (but be careful) you could simply return it if it doesn't work.
The bonus is that it still seems to work pretty well for high band vhf as well.
Edit: I didn't see that you are already using a large combo antenna. I doubt the CM 3016 modified is likely to give you much improvement, although for me it works better on low band than the VHF section of a Winegard 8200p. If you are having problems even with the large combo, you might need to consider going outside.
Going outside would not be much of a challenge compared to the objection of my wife. I think I'll order the 6 element Winegard and try it out. If if does not work well, I could butcher it into a Ch. 3 specific 3 element antenna and try to convince my wife to put it below the eave in the back of the house.:D
greywolf 02-24-05, 04:25 PM Some have had success making a 93" dipole out of 300 Ohm antenna wire.
Munkeung 02-24-05, 04:28 PM Originally posted by greywolf
Some have had success making a 93" dipole out of 300 Ohm antenna wire.
Thanks. I did tried a folded dipole and I picked up nothing inside the attic, although now I suspect I had bad balun so I'll try again and will try putting it outside also.
Originally posted by MAX HD
Where you live,a 90ft tower is a plus.Somewhat of a tv wasteland.Plenty of PBS,but not much else.Paducah,Cape Girardeau,Evansville might be easier than St Louis.
The XG is a good choice.A rotor and a CM 7777 preamp and you're good to go.
What Make and model is the Tower?
You been right on MAX HD! I now have the xg91 and the cm7777. Went and hooked it up, setting on pool fence next to house, pointing directly into large garage. It is pulling channels 60 miles away already. I cannot recieve anything from St Louis yet (77 mi), but have gotten 2 dozen channels, with 13 of those being digital. WoW. Still need to purchase a rotor, so I have'nt got it mounted on the tower. Hopefully, that will get me some signals from St Louis once it is correctly installed.
One question I still have is about the tilting of the yagi? I wonder since my general location is low lyeing, would there be any benefit in a slight angle upwards?
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