Originally posted by digiblur
....It seems I get conflicting info from the two above websites? Does anyone have another website that I can find out about the HD channels in my area?

Try pasting this into your web browser. The red lines shown in the antenna pattern point to you. (Well, actually at your post office.)

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=30%2E58567&longitude=%2D91%2E13922&magnetic_north=0&range=60&sort=channel&show_expired=False&show_construction=False&show_analog=True&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

There are instructions on the top of the page and a link to a website to fine the exact lat & lin of your house.

Bob C

Originally posted by quarque
digiblur - PM your address to me and I will try to help you sort it out. We need to first find out if there are any topograhical problems (you can't move a hill). Could you also send the call letters of the stations you want so I can easily look up their coordinates? If you know your lat/lon you can go to:
But none of the online sites account for topography. That is a killer in my area.

What topography? LOL. I live in Louisiana. What does a hill look like? ;) It's all flat here.

I don't feel comfortable with PM'ing an address. If you punch in 70714 in any of the websites I mentioned above or even Mapquest.com you'll be pretty close to my address.

Originally posted by dr1394
From Figure 23 in the reference that holl_ands cited:

http://www.atsc.org/news_information/papers/2001_8vsb_performance/Performance_Assessment.pdf

It would appear that a -28 dB echo doesn't have much effect (especially
considering the it would take about 350 feet of feedline to generate a 1
microsecond VSWR induced echo).

Ron

Ron,

Your point is noted and I don't have a paper to offer a rebuttal. I do know that multipath of -30 dB or higher is a concern.

Take a look at page 66 of the document for signal loss & group delay due to VSWR. Group delay expends tap energy too.

Bob

Continuing story...

After playing w/ RS variable attenuator, it doesn't seem easy to attenuate out dropouts and freezes on chn 4 (45) an NBC channel. One thing I've noticed is that the closed captioning is often garbage even when the pic, sound and strenght meter are good. The DO and freezes seem to corespond w/ strength meter droppng. I can't say I've seen it on other stations.

Anybody got a clue about the CC problem? Is it particularly sensitive to MP?

Any good site to look up power of stations? Antennaweb is nice for diretion and distance, but I think relative power might be interesting.
(I will search thread:)

(edit...hmmm you guys are reading my mind, that 2150 site looks familiar :)

Thanks
John

Originally posted by digiblur
What topography? LOL. I live in Louisiana. What does a hill look like? ;) It's all flat here.

I don't feel comfortable with PM'ing an address. If you punch in 70714 in any of the websites I mentioned above or even Mapquest.com you'll be pretty close to my address.
I had no idea where 70714 was. Yup, it's flat alright. I used the center of that zip code area and you have 5 stations in the same general direction ranging from 9 miles to 20 miles away. You have one VHF and 4 UHF stations so you might get away with a UHF-only antenna since the VHF station is ch 13. A good place the start is the Channel Master 4221/3021 but for easy returns you can first try the Rat Shack 15-2160. Also get the RS variable attenuator to put just behind your receiver. Your stations are low power except for PBS at 200 kW - may need attenuation. The low power on the others may be a problem if you have lots of trees to go through. It may take a lot of experimentation and patience.

Originally posted by holl_ands
Bob: Thanks for the valuable "real world" measurement re attic loss.
I'm surprised as how much more you measured for your attic compared to the statistical numbers found for a large number of lower, indoor locations in the above ATSC Field Test Report.

Could you remark on construction materials, esp roof and proximity of foil backed insulation either in the line of fire or below the antenna as well as any other nearby metal objects?
Also, how did you measure signal strength?

I'm surprised by how well the mast mounted CM4221 4-Bay performed compared to ANY of the presumably higher gain models....and how poorly the CM4248 Yagi performed both outside and in the attic.

And why did the Scala 1469 Log Periodic have 7+ dB less attenuation at mid to high frequencies in the attic than ALL of the other antennas, but was right in the middle of the pack outdoors? Very strange....
holl_ands ,

The roof is standard asphalt shingles, over 15# roofing felt, over 1/2" plywood. The metal flashing at the edge of the roof is minimal, maybe a 2"x1" angle, just enough to cover the edge of the plywood. (No ice on the gulf coast of Texas.)

Texas attics in general (and mine specifically) have lots of metal foil covered flexible ducts for the AC. In mine, there is also a hot water heater and two combination furnace/AC evaporator/fan units up there. All of these were behind the antennas during testing.

Testing was done with a spectrum analyzer using the Max Hold function. The data was allowed to build for three minutes and then downloaded into Excel on the laptop. I also used Excel to extract the analog channels visual carrier peak value and the level at the middle of the digital channels from the 4001 data points. The extracted data shows up as the data-points on the graph.

As the Scala truly is flat (+/- 0.2 dB) across the UHF band, it was declared the graphs base line when it was outside on the mast. Then, each antenna's performance was compared to the Scala by subtraction. (Subtracting logarithms is really division, hence it gives us the Relative Gain Ratio of the antennas.) So comparing the 4228 to the 4248 is a real comparison of the relative gain between them that was experienced in this one location. The method is not as clean and scientific as I would like but I think that it does show the relative gain of the antennas outside.

In the attic, all bets are off. 1st, there is the consequences of the attic refections punching through the back-side of the antennas, either adding to or subtracting from the signal coming into the front. 2nd, attic placement turns out to be as important as what antenna is purchased to put up there. (see the attachment to this post.)

I've got some more data taken from another attic but I have not had time to extract it. So all I can say at this point is that that attic was more transparent to UHF than mine was. It also had a sizable window, perhaps 3'x6', in the general direction of the antenna farm. We were close to downtown, well into the city, with lots of taller buildings all around.

What started me on this adventure was just plain curiosity. I had heard so many glowing reports about the CM7777 and how much it improved reception, that I just couldn't believe what I was reading. My previous experience with preamps has always been a disappointment. While they may have reduced the amount of 'snow', they always added noise (grain) and intermodualtion products (IM) that I couldn't stand to watch.

I had folks 10 to 15 miles from our transmitter reporting significant improvements in both analog and digital reception. I knew from experience that any preamp should be in serious overload, causing all sorts of IM, killing any chance of watching anything. Particularly in Houston, with 17 TV stations and 34 transmitters filling its front end with RF energy. It was when I tested the antennas in my attic that the proverbial light went off. The reason any preamp works for them is that there is a 20 dB attenuator in front of the preamp called 'The Attic'.

By the way, an indoor study done in the 60's at 3500 locations, where they measured the signal levels right at the owners TV set on ch-31, showed a median of 17.5 dB loss for wood frame and 26.9 dB loss for brick construction .

Bob C

Originally posted by quarque
You have one VHF and 4 UHF stations so you might get away with a UHF-only antenna since the VHF station is ch 13. A good place the start is the Channel Master 4221/3021 but for easy returns you can first try the Rat Shack 15-2160.

I was looking at the CM3021, looks easy to mount on the outside of the house. I picked up RS 15-2160 today along with the adapter to go to RG6, I'll have to go stick it up on top of the house and see what it does. I'm assuming due to the close proximity I don't need an amplifier. I can pick up the VHF one just fine right now with the cheapy rabbit ears with the VHF antennas down without a problem. I'll post my results back.

Is there much of a gain difference in the RS 15-2160 and the CM3021?

Originally posted by digiblur
I was looking at the CM3021, looks easy to mount on the outside of the house. I picked up RS 15-2160 today along with the adapter to go to RG6, I'll have to go stick it up on top of the house and see what it does. I'm assuming due to the close proximity I don't need an amplifier. I can pick up the VHF one just fine right now with the cheapy rabbit ears with the VHF antennas down without a problem. I'll post my results back.

Is there much of a gain difference in the RS 15-2160 and the CM3021?

Rat Shack doesn't publish their antenna gain. The CM 3021 is definetly a better of the 2 by far. At 20 miles the Rat Shack should do the job especially over flat land. I have a DT41 here at 21 miles with 91xg and even with 25DB front to back ratio I still get it off the back side.

What would you suggest to catch two markets which are separated by 100 degrees as measured from my house ? The major is 16 miles away and the secondary is 35 miles. The first has two VHF-hi channels (8 & 9) and the other has VHF 13.

From what I can see, a join-tenna wouldn't do for the UHF since the channels are scattered between the two markets. I could do this on VHF though.

Another consideration is something small that won't catch much wind during hurricane season. I was all set for an attic install but the recent excellent posts on attic attenuation have given me food for thought.

I've been mulling this over and can only see the SqS with pre-amp given its wide beamwidth. Any other ideas ?

tpalik,

Seperate antennas on seperate feedlines with a A/B switch before receiver(some receivers even have 2 antenna inputs, RCA DTC-100 is one example) to switch between antennas -- Or a single antenna setup with rotor.

The 2 antenna/2 feedline setup is convienient(I do it here for 2 local markets, although I have a rotor on one antenna setup as well), and probably less expensive depending up what antenna(s) you decide to purchase. As for having to make the 2nd coax run, with rotor you'd have to run a rotor control cable anyway, and of course you don't have to wait for the rotor to rotate with 2 seperate antennas you just flip the switch(you can even get a remote controlled A/B switch as RS for about $50) ...

Originally posted by jimc705
Rat Shack doesn't publish their antenna gain. The CM 3021 is definetly a better of the 2 by far. At 20 miles the Rat Shack should do the job especially over flat land. I have a DT41 here at 21 miles with 91xg and even with 25DB front to back ratio I still get it off the back side.

Here are the specs for the RS 15-2160: http://support.radioshack.com/support_video/doc19/19192.htm

Whether they're completely accurate, I don't know. I'd probably go with the 4221 over it as well especially for channels < 40 or certainly if I had any need for high vhf.

I put the 15-2160 up and I wasn't impressed at all. I actually lost more signal than I gained compared to my little amplified rabbit ear antenna in the attic. Actually just the opposite happened of what I expected. On the VHF 13 channel I went from the low 70's to the low 80's. The other 2 UHF channels I went from the low 80's to the low 70's.

I think I'm going to take the 15-2160 down and bring it back to RS and get the CM3021 antenna that everyone is raving about.

It looks like I'm stuck trying to pick up those 1kw signals that FOX and NBC are sending out in my area. I can pick up their analog signals decently so hopefully one day they will crank up the power on the digitals.

Another weird thing is the 200kw signal from PBS is in the 70's but yet the 30kw signal on channel 13 comes in with more power. Makes me believe that PBS isn't running 200kw. I even tried putting the antenna in the attic to determine if it was too much power but the signal dropped just like it was supposed to in the attic.

I'll post my findings on the CM3021 and I get it... thanks guys!

Originally posted by digiblur
Another weird thing is the 200kw signal from PBS is in the 70's but yet the 30kw signal on channel 13 comes in with more power. Makes me believe that PBS isn't running 200kw.


That is probably normal especially if the PBS is a UHF channel. It takes more power the higher the frequecy to achieve the same results. If you located in one of the topp 100 markets the 4 major networks have to be full power by July1 .

Originally posted by jimc705
That is probably normal especially if the PBS is a UHF channel. It takes more power the higher the frequecy to achieve the same results. If you located in one of the topp 100 markets the 4 major networks have to be full power by July1 .

I figured that dealing with other RF technology, but I didn't think the ratio was that much with TV.

Do you have a list of the 100 markets?

Originally posted by digiblur
I figured that dealing with other RF technology, but I didn't think the ratio was that much with TV.

Do you have a list of the 100 markets?

Go here:http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/
click on your state, then area, and the DMA rank will be listed at the top right.

how much of a difference is there between a dedicated UHF antenna and a vhf/uhf/fm antenna? is there that much of a gain difference? reading here in this forum it sounds as though the dedicated antenna performs much more efficiently than a combination antenna. i have asked this same question of local dealers here and i get just the opposite. are the sales on combined antennas down so far that they are just trying to sell them to get rid of them?

Hey all,

Disclaimer: I don't work for this company, but I got great service
from them when I ordered stuff from them. Warren Electronics
in the Quad Cities (Moline, IL) has the 8-bay ChannelMaster 4228
UHF antenna on sale for $39.50. Unfortunately, I got mine there
when it was $53.95. Oh well. Go to Google and do a search
on Warren Electronics, then click on their antennas box when
you get to their site.

Originally posted by sebenste
Hey all,

Disclaimer: I don't work for this company, but I got great service
from them when I ordered stuff from them. Warren Electronics
in the Quad Cities (Moline, IL) has the 8-bay ChannelMaster 4228
UHF antenna on sale for $39.50. Unfortunately, I got mine there
when it was $53.95. Oh well. Go to Google and do a search
on Warren Electronics, then click on their antennas box when
you get to their site.

Hmm...not a bad deal. I was thinking of the 3021 and I might just pick up the 4228 and call it done. After shipping costs Warren has SolidSignal beat by $5, I don't like the FedEx shipping though, might pay the extra $5 to get the UPS shipping from SolidSignal.

Originally posted by dapack5
how much of a difference is there between a dedicated UHF antenna and a vhf/uhf/fm antenna? is there that much of a gain difference? reading here in this forum it sounds as though the dedicated antenna performs much more efficiently than a combination antenna. i have asked this same question of local dealers here and i get just the opposite. are the sales on combined antennas down so far that they are just trying to sell them to get rid of them?

The more you narrow the spectrum of frequency you're trying to receive, the better the performance you'll get because the antenna can be designed for that specific frequency or range. This holds true pretty much all the way down to single-channel antennas. The broader the band of reception, the more trade-offs there will have to be in the design. There's just no getting around it.

Separate vhf/uhf sections also allow for independent aiming which is another advantage. The disadvantage obviously is that you have more than one antenna, they must have separation on the mast between them, and they thus take up more space on the mast and make for a longer lever arm if you're using a rotor.

If you need only uhf and high band vhf (7-13) though, you can actually get better performance with overall less windload/weight with separates.

thanks for your response to my question. i guess now i'll go ahead and order the 91XG and see how it works for me. i've read that a well made UHF antenna can pick up high vhf channels. our local CBS affiliate ( WINK) is on channel 11 and when they finally start their HD feeds they were assigned channel 9. is anyone having any problems receiving their VHF channels that use the 91XG, as their only antenna?

i was referring to the 91XG as a XG91 and the price appears to be reasonable including the extra 5 bucks for the 3 day shipping.

So It's spring time again and trees are leafing out. I have done a search on trees but it seemed that there was no definitive answer on leaf interference with OTA signals.
I have a CM4228 w/a 3041 pre-amp, I am some 40 miles from the towers and have just started experiencing some audio drops and pixelating on only one of my OTA channels. The D* RCA DTC 210 says I have 80%- 90%, could this be leaves or should I look elsewhere?
There are several trees leafing out within 15'- 30' of the antenna.
Perhaps I should get out the pruning saw and report back.

Yes, leaves can block signal and cause dropouts etc. Prune away! Or move your antenna.

I am thinking of getting either the Channel Master 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna CM-4228 or Winegard 8-Bay UHF Prostar 1000 High Definition TV Antenna (PR8800) from http://www.solidsignal.com Either one is $ 48.99. They appear to be virtually identical, but I am just curious if one of them is actually built better than the other or if one will outperform the other. My guess is that they will work virtually the same as one another and are built about the same. Can I do better than either or these or is this about as good as it gets for UHF antennas?

Originally posted by Jim1348
I am thinking of getting either the Channel Master 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna CM-4228 or Winegard 8-Bay UHF Prostar 1000 High Definition TV Antenna (PR8800) from http://www.solidsignal.com Either one is $ 48.99. They appear to be virtually identical, but I am just curious if one of them is actually built better than the other or if one will outperform the other. My guess is that they will work virtually the same as one another and are built about the same. Can I do better than either or these or is this about as good as it gets for UHF antennas?

The 4228 is more consistent throughout the uhf range, esp. above channel 40 or so. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

The 8800 is aluminum and is lighter while the 4228 is steel and about twice as heavy.

If I had to choose, I'd go with the 4228 as long as you don't plan to use a rotor. If you use a rotor, you might consider a large yagi/corner reflector such as the Antennasdirect xg91. It's much lighter with less wind load, with slightly better performance in the high uhf than the 8-bay while giving up slightly to the 8-bay say channel 40 and lower.

To get even higher performance for uhf, you'd either have to stack or go with a grouped channel antenna. AFAIK, these are only available as imports (Triax, Funke, Antiference) and can be had through http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/home/homepage.jsp

Edit: I have seen a domestic source: http://wade-antenna.com/UHFantennas.htm go to the bottom of the page. I can't vouch for them though.

Originally posted by dapack5
Is anyone having any problems receiving their VHF channels that use the 91XG, as their only antenna?

If you haven't read my review yet, you should:
http://www.geocities.com/figbert/antennasdirect91xg.html

Especially the section labled "The VHF Surprise." I find that the 91XG performs below the VHF section of my former Winegard HD-8200P, but that I get practically identical reception for stations within 55 miles or so on hi-VHF. I get perfect reception of KTTC, channel 10, at about 30 miles, using the 91XG.

Originally posted by rickmccamy
I have done a search on trees but it seemed that there was no definitive answer on leaf interference with OTA signals.

That's because there is no definitive answer on anything with OTA signals. Every situation is different.

Generally speaking, leaves will attenuate signals, especially UHF, and if they are being blown by the wind, this attenuation is usually too variable for the automatic gain control module in your tuner to compensate for.

Those who have done major tree surgery for reception have reported that pine trees don't seem to have nearly the same effect as deciduous, and once you clear local trees by about 10 feet, there's no additional improvement to be had.

Still, trees may or may not be your problem and removing trees may or may not improve things. Spring is a time of volatile weather, and different types of weather have different effects on reception.

Originally posted by dapack5
thanks for your response to my question. i guess now i'll go ahead and order the 91XG and see how it works for me. i've read that a well made UHF antenna can pick up high vhf channels. our local CBS affiliate ( WINK) is on channel 11 and when they finally start their HD feeds they were assigned channel 9. is anyone having any problems receiving their VHF channels that use the 91XG, as their only antenna?

i was referring to the 91XG as a XG91 and the price appears to be reasonable including the extra 5 bucks for the 3 day shipping.

I have the 91XG and it does well with channel 11 analog here. I also have a DT 7 but no 9. Dt 7 40+ miles I cannot get a lock with the 91 XG. My solution was to build a dipole for channel 7. Works great and even over a small hill. Analog 8 it does poorly analog 10 over the same hill better but not great. All these channels are within a mile of each other. I'd give it a try and if no go then try this link and build a small dipole.

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

Pix of my 91xg with dipole mounted above made with CPVC 1/2' pipe to enclose and make connections water tight. You can also see results.
Note I'm using a CM 7777 for combiner but DT 7 comes in with or without the amp at same signal strength. The 7777 only helps my DT 30 (CBS)which is very marginal and has drops without the amp. Luckily I get DT 58 also CBS much better.

http://jimc705.tripod.com/pixs/index.album?i=0#

Originally posted by sregener
That's because there is no definitive answer on anything with OTA signals.
Those who have done major tree surgery for reception have reported that pine trees don't seem to have nearly the same effect as deciduous, and once you clear local trees by about 10 feet, there's no additional improvement to be had.


Well, I got straight A's in aboroculture, and I have a suspect tree within 10', the surgery would be minor, one branch only. I'll report back. ;)
And yes, of course it is a volunteer Walnut.

Where are some good places to buy diplexers, splitters, etc. on-line. I don't seem to have many places locally that carry them and when I do find one, they want an arm and a leg. I have to imagine that someone carries these on-line and doesn't go crazy on shipping charges.

Originally posted by Jim1348
Where are some good places to buy diplexers, splitters, etc. on-line. I don't seem to have many places locally that carry them and when I do find one, they want an arm and a leg. I have to imagine that someone carries these on-line and doesn't go crazy on shipping charges.

http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf

or


http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm

or

http://www.hometech.com/video/splitters.html#PI-DSU2

Originally posted by Jim1348
I am thinking of getting either the Channel Master 4228 8-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna CM-4228 or Winegard 8-Bay UHF Prostar 1000 High Definition TV Antenna (PR8800) from http://www.solidsignal.com Either one is $ 48.99. They appear to be virtually identical, but I am just curious if one of them is actually built better than the other or if one will outperform the other. My guess is that they will work virtually the same as one another and are built about the same. Can I do better than either or these or is this about as good as it gets for UHF antennas?
Jim - check your PM. I did your topo analysis and all looks very good. The 4228 or any 8-bay would be overkill at 20 miles unless you're going in the attic or something that requires extra gain. I'd go with a 4-bay like the 4221/3021 instead or even the Rat Shack 15-2160 yagi since it is cheap, easy to find and easy to return.

Hello, I am from Sterling Heights, MI, zip code is 48310, atennaweb.org:

* yellow - uhf WWJ-DT 62.1 CBS DETROIT MI 222° 9.6 44
* yellow - uhf WTVS-DT 56.1 PBS DETROIT MI 222° 9.6 43
* yellow - uhf WXYZ-DT 7.1 ABC DETROIT MI 243° 11.3 41
* yellow - uhf WKBD-DT 50.1 UPN DETROIT MI 254° 13.7 14
* yellow - uhf WDWB-DT 20.1 WB DETROIT MI 222° 9.6 21
* yellow - uhf WJBK-DT 2.1 FOX DETROIT MI 235° 10.3 58
* yellow - uhf WDIV-DT 4.1 NBC DETROIT MI 240° 8.9 45

I have a Sony Grand Wega IV which has a built in OTA HD tuner, I was wondering what type of indoor/outdoor antenna you would suggest to me from experience. I know that if I get an outdoor directional antenna I would need to point it towards southfield (SW between 222 and 254 degrees). I have a 2 story house, would I need an outdoor antenna or would an indoor antenna work just as well? I would rather get an outdoor antenna to avoid the hassle of indoor ones. I was thinking a Channel Master 4221 or a SS-1000 would probably work well. Do you think I could get by with putting a Channel Master 4221 in the attic? There are no hills or large buildings in the way of the towers. Thanks.

Originally posted by omega3002
I was thinking a Channel Master 4221 or a SS-1000 would probably work well. Do you think I could get by with putting a Channel Master 4221 in the attic?

I'd recommend the 4221 in your situation - it should be able to get good signals from the range of directions you need to cover. A 4228 might be a tad too directional and make it hard for you to get by with a fixed install.

In the attic, though, all bets are off. Attics are mutlipath heavy areas, and there's no way to predict if it will work for you or not. You lose a lot of signal (at least 50%) just by putting your antenna indoors. And when you get snow on the roof, that snow can block a lot more as it becomes more dense (greater liquid state.) If at all possible, plant that puppy outdoors.

Avoid amplifiers. They won't help you at your distance.

Originally posted by omega3002
Hello, I am from Sterling Heights, MI, zip code is 48310, atennaweb.org:

I have a Sony Grand Wega IV which has a built in OTA HD tuner, I was wondering what type of indoor/outdoor antenna you would suggest to me from experience. I know that if I get an outdoor directional antenna I would need to point it towards southfield (SW between 222 and 254 degrees). I have a 2 story house, would I need an outdoor antenna or would an indoor antenna work just as well? I would rather get an outdoor antenna to avoid the hassle of indoor ones. When I was living in Royal Oak, I was indeed able to get all the channels with an indoor antenna (cheap rabbit ears -- in a basement, no less). But I don't recommend it if a rooftop antenna is an option: there were occasional dropouts and it could get quite frustrating. I'd just slap something big on the roof and be done with it. I'm currently at 9 and Van Dyke and using some big-ass UHF/VHF Channel Master deal (no idea what the model # is) that the Voom folks threw up there. All the locals come in rock solid. I put it on a rotor just for fun and am also able to get WADL (38-1, 38-2) out of Mt. Clemens (not that there's ever anything I want to watch), and WFUM (28-1, 28-2) a PBS station out of Flint.

If you haven't already, you might wanna ask for opinions in the Detroit local thread, too.

Originally posted by sregener
Attics are mutlipath heavy areas, and there's no way to predict if it will work for you or not. You lose a lot of signal (at least 50%) just by putting your antenna indoors.This is pretty good advice except for the 50%. I've seen other estimates ranging from 30% to 90% and I wonder if any actual tests can be cited. Even if there are, so many variable factors come into play here -- not one of the least being how perpendicular to the incoming signal is your attic -- that I strongly believe in always ignoring these estimates and giving the attic a shot.

Originally posted by Bill Johnson
I strongly believe in always ignoring these estimates and giving the attic a shot.

I used to be in this camp, too. Except that this guy seems more willing than many to put up an outdoor antenna, and there's no denying that his odds are best if he does that. I simply stated "there is no way to predict" when installing attic antennas, a statement I stand by. No one can come out, look at your attic, and tell you whether it's going to work or not. Worse, conditions change over time.

I've advised many people to put their antennas outdoors. They try their attics and everything works - for a while. Then they start having problems and can't figure out why. Either snow starts blocking their signal, or the weather bends things at a different angle, and all of a sudden, their "perfect" reception is gone - and it never happens at a convenient time to fix it.

Your best chance of reliable, stable, all-the-time reception is outdoors, at or above roof level. Always. Maybe you can get lucky and do something less than the best.

The question you should always ask yourself with an attic antenna is, "Do I feel lucky?"

As an attic first advocate, I agree better more stable reception is the main goal, but "outside" has nothing else going for it against a lot of negatives that are pretty overwhelming. I list these minuses in no particular order except perhaps the first two. If none bothers you, by all means go to the roof or better still have a contractor do it.
1. Wife
2. Wind
3. Corrosion
4. Lightning/Need for grounding
5. Esthetics
6. HOA's
7. Longer Lead-in
8. Roof/house penetration
9. Roof Inaccessibility

I am thinking of buying some items from http://www.starkelectronic.com/

Is this a good company to deal with?

The items I want are:

-ASKA SP-31GDC 3-way Splitter

-ASKA SCS-6 Mini Diplexer

Are the ASKA components of good quality?

Originally posted by Bill Johnson
As an attic first advocate, I agree better more stable reception is the main goal, but "outside" has nothing else going for it against a lot of negatives that are pretty overwhelming. I list these minuses in no particular order except perhaps the first two. If none bothers you, by all means go to the roof or better still have a contractor do it.
1. Wife
2. Wind
3. Corrosion
4. Lightning/Need for grounding
5. Esthetics
6. HOA's
7. Longer Lead-in
8. Roof/house penetration
9. Roof Inaccessibility

Outside only has one advantage that I can think of:

1. That's where the signal is. :)

Danger! Danger! Will Robinson! - have we forgotten:

10) Falling off the roof in the process

Originally posted by cpcat
Outside only has one advantage that I can think of:

1. That's where the signal is. :) That made me think of the story of a guy who lost his contact lens in a parking lot at night by his car. He looked for it by a lamp post instead because the light was better.

When I've hit a blind golf shot towards a green but don't find my golfball in plain sight, the first place I check is in the cup.

Willie Sutton never robbed any poor people.

Originally posted by Jim1348
I am thinking of buying some items from http://www.starkelectronic.com/

Is this a good company to deal with?

I've purchased items from them and always received what was promised, when it was promised, and had no billing issues. YMMV.

Originally posted by Bill Johnson
1. Wife
2. Wind
3. Corrosion
4. Lightning/Need for grounding
5. Esthetics
6. HOA's
7. Longer Lead-in
8. Roof/house penetration
9. Roof Inaccessibility

I've always wondered about #1, the WAF. Maybe it's because I have an understanding wife (witness my 54' tower) but I find that most people have much less approval of a signal that breaks up in the middle of their favorite program than they do about an item that 90% of the population never sees.

Wind shouldn't be a problem with a 4221. It has a very low profile and wind load factor.

Corrosion is a fact of life with outdoor installations. Still, at 10 miles, that puppy is going to have to have serious breakdowns before it's going to fail. It would probably serve 20 or more years without problems. Try and find a television (which is stored indoors) which lasts that long.

Proper grounding is easy. And once your antenna is grounded, it is one of the least popular places for a lightning strike to take place.

Aesthetics is, as they say, a matter of taste.

HOA's, according to the FCC, can go and perform unnatural acts with their restrictions.

If you use RG-6, and certainly at 10 miles, you could have a run of 200' and not come close to the losses associated with an attic space.

Can't help you with the roof problem. Silicone works well, but nothing is perfect. Even shingles fail.

All of which is to say that I think people spend far more time looking at their television than they do their house, and why would anyone trade a slightly better looking house for a picture that isn't stable? Do you really want to miss the last three minutes of Desperate Housewives (for example) because you don't want a small piece of metal on your roof?

Take a minute. Look at the "perfect" roof of yours. You'll find that it already has things poking out of it. What's one more?

Originally posted by cpcat
Outside only has one advantage that I can think of:
1. That's where the signal is.cp left off an important word in No. 1 and it should read "signal is strongest." My attic along with any expert on wave propagation would testify that tv signals can travel incredibly long distances, penetrate various roofing materials, and still deliver a strong rock solid signal to antennas and TV sets therein.

I believe "outside" is an over-rated factor. Nevertheless, sregener deftly handles most of my nine points and if I find out at shutdown I can't pick up high vhf digital at about 125 miles -- even though high vhf analog comes in solid -- then a big vhf monster will be on my roof. But these winds will still concern me.

Originally posted by Bill Johnson
cp left off an important word in No. 1 and it should read "signal is strongest." My attic along with any expert on wave propagation would testify that tv signals can travel incredibly long distances, penetrate various roofing materials, and still deliver a strong rock solid signal to antennas and TV sets therein.

I believe "outside" is an over-rated factor. Nevertheless, sregener deftly handles most of my nine points and if I find out at shutdown I can't pick up high vhf digital at about 125 miles -- even though high vhf analog comes in solid -- then a big vhf monster will be on my roof. But these winds will still concern me.

Bill
In Churchill VA I'm surprised you need any antenna. Flat land mostly over water and within most station A prime coverage area. An attic antenna should be more then sufficient for you. Those of us in the fringe areas 60+ miles from transmitters in the hills need all the metal in the air we can get and can't afford the loss an attic mount. Basically if an attic mount will do it great! Personally with my attic (which is almost a crawl space) I'd much rather have it outside anyway.

All Serenger is saying is you want the most out of your antenna then it needs to be outside. I agree where you are located you have plenty of signal and mounting outside will proably be a waiste.

Originally posted byjimc705
Bill
In Churchill VA I'm surprised you need any antenna. Flat land mostly over water and within most station A prime coverage area. An attic antenna should be more then sufficient for you. Those of us in the fringe areas 60+ miles from transmitters in the hills need all the metal in the air we can get and can't afford the loss an attic mount. Basically if an attic mount will do it great! Personally with my attic (which is almost a crawl space) I'd much rather have it outside anyway.

All Serenger is saying is you want the most out of your antenna then it needs to be outside. I agree where you are located you have plenty of signal and mounting outside will proably be a waiste.Hello Jim,
Actually there are 2 Churchills in Virginia & I'm in neither. In fact I'm not too too far from you near Churchville just off I-81 at the Staunton/Harrisonburg exits.

But now that you've mentioned my attic antenna, that's like waving red meat before a dog & just eggs on this HD 19.3 fanatic to talk about my setup. Here are the facts and I don't understand such unbelievable reception although sregener & others have mentioned knife-edge diffraction which I'm dubious of as being a factor for me:
1. DC digital stations are 125 miles from me and Richmond digital stations are 100 miles from me
2. I pick up virtually all of them rock solid 24/7 and have now for going on two yrs.
3. The Blue Ridge Mtns. many at 3000-4000 ft. are between me & the towers
4. I do it all using an attic rotarized CM 4228 with a CM dist. amp 3044, Sony HD200 and a Hit. 57S500.
5. Now admittedly my elevation is nearly 1800 ft. and my house is pretty perpendicular to the incoming signals, but for reasons of topo & distance, my success still doesn't compute.

And I'm glad I didn't listen to antennaweb.org and warnings about attics cutting down half or more of the signal. I say try it first!

Bill - could you post your nearest intersection & zip or lat/lon? I'd like to do a topo plot to DC and Richmond for fun.

Diffraction IS real. I'm not sure if that is how you are getting signal or not. It may be strong reflections off mountains. I just did a plot for a guy in Canada who is 96 miles from our towers and he gets good signal with a 4228 stack. He has no direct line-of-sight but an interesting series of mountains and valleys going in his direction. It must be the "pinball" effect.

Originally posted by quarque
Bill - could you post your nearest intersection & zip or lat/lon? I'd like to do a topo plot to DC and Richmond for fun.

Diffraction IS real. I'm not sure if that is how you are getting signal or not. It may be strong reflections off mountains. I just did a plot for a guy in Canada who is 96 miles from our towers and he gets good signal with a 4228 stack. He has no direct line-of-sight but an interesting series of mountains and valleys going in his direction. It must be the "pinball" effect.On my Va. topo map, I'm at 38.2 N. Lat. & 79.2 W. Lon. and on a plain old regular map I'm 2 mi. SW of Churchville.

There's a gap in the Blue Ridge at Afton Mtn. which I believe gives me kind of LOS to Richmond towers if my ruler doesn't lie; but almost 100 miles? Man!

And the DC signals are coming 125 mi. over some approx. 4000 ft. peaks and at an oblique angle to boot. Plus there's zero leaf effect for me in the summer so I've always been skeptical of diffraction coming into play. I even frequently pull in the 90 kW WETA-DT so something's at work I don't understand.

Bill,
Sorry wrong Churchville! You are a lucky man with your reception. I have a nephew who's about to take the OTAHD plunge in Ranson WV. You give him strong hopes for getting DC and Balt. If you get Richmond then maybe he'll be able to get lucky. He's ordered a 4228 and already has a mast on his 2 story 100 year old colonial home. I'll be riding up there to help with his install in the near fuuture. Let you guys know how it works out when we're down.

to place my antrenna?

When I moved into my house there was an antenna already in place. My only gripe is most of my local programming looks like crap! My second biggest gripe is my antenna is on the 2nd floor of my house and I can't just casually go up there whenever I feel like to make any adjustments. Its in a really awkward location.

Is there such thing as a signal meter that I can use to optimally place my antenna?

Fwiw, I have no idea what brand/model the antenna is. Can someone recommend a kick ass, proven outdoor antenna?

Thanks

Threads merged.

Originally posted by airbrat
Is there such thing as a signal meter that I can use to optimally place my antenna?

Fwiw, I have no idea what brand/model the antenna is. Can someone recommend a kick ass, proven outdoor antenna?


You don't say if you're trying to get digitals reception or analog. Usually, digital doesn't "look like crap."

There are dB meters that allow people to determine where the strongest signal is on your property. These are generally expensive.

Most digital receivers have "signal strength" meters that would tell you where best to place your antenna. They don't measure signal strength so much as signal quality, which, for digital, is the thing you really need.

Except for PBS, all of your digitals are UHF. Good antennas include the AntennasDirect 91XG and DB8, the Channel Master 3021, 3023, 4228 and 4221 and the Winegard PR-9032 and PR8800. With a little luck, you should be able to get the PBS digital with any of these antennas.

Thanks! One last question. Where is the best place I can purchase a Channel Master and what is the difference in model numbers?

Originally posted by airbrat
Thanks! One last question. Where is the best place I can purchase a Channel Master and what is the difference in model numbers? Try www.channelmaster.com for a description of the different models. They also have links to online retailers.

Originally posted by airbrat
Thanks! One last question. Where is the best place I can purchase a Channel Master and what is the difference in model numbers?

I strongly recommend reading this web site in depth. It should answer any questions you have about different antennas: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html

There is no one "best place." Lowe's carries some Channel Master antennas. Warren Electronics and Stark Electronics are two online retailers that I've done business with and had no problems with.

Originally posted by airbrat
Thanks! One last question. Where is the best place I can purchase a Channel Master and what is the difference in model numbers?

If you looking for the 4228 then warrens has it on sale for 39.50 I believe.
I've bought of them before and offer fast shipping.

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm

Am I overly optimistic about OTA?
I am a voom subscriber, and using their standard OTA antenna (Winegard Sensor II) I am able to pick up my local in-town stations...NBC, CBS, and FOX, plus a PBS station ~60miles away. However, being a avid football fan, I must have an ABC affiliate to watch Monday Night Football this fall. I would really like to pick up WRTV in Indianapolis which is ~68miles away to the east of me @68*. I have two questions; 1) Am I being over optimistic about being able to pull this channel in? 2) How would I add another OTA antenna to my voom OTA antenna?

1) A little about my location. I live in a single story house, and I cannot spend $1000 to put in a 30' tower. I would like to place a tripod mounted mast on top of my roof...which will place the antenna @20-25' (top of house ~15' plus tripod and mast) above the ground. My neighbor across the street does have two tall trees in the general direction of Indianapolis but no major obstacles like hills or mountains. I was curious to see if I could get any signal whatsoever from this ABC station. I went to my voom OTA setup menu to gauge the signal quality, and then I took a simple, amplified indoor antenna up to my rooftop and pointed it towards that ABC station, surprisingly the 'meter' on my voom receiver registered 60-65. I was hopeful that a more sensitive and powerful antenna could do much better in the same spot. Is there any way of testing the strength of that station before getting everything up there? I visited anntenadirect.com and was reccomended the XG91; and from the solidsignal.com, I was told to get a CM 4228. From what I have described, am I being too optimistic about reliably picking up this ABC station? I would MUCH rather watch my football in HD as compared to a basic lifeline cable package that is my alternative.

2) Assuming I get an antenna up and working well, how do I add the new antenna and pre-amp to my existing voom OTA antenna? Currently, the RG6 cable comes from the voom OTA antenna to the switch at the back of the dish, then a RG6 cable is sent to each of my 3 receivers which enter the receiver through a diplexer on the back of the voom receiver.

Thanks,
Adam

Nice! But will this model pick up VHF? It doesnt mention it on their website. I can't miss my UPN!

Originally posted by terfmop
Am I overly optimistic about OTA?
I am a voom subscriber, and using their standard OTA antenna (Winegard Sensor II) I am able to pick up my local in-town stations...NBC, CBS, and FOX, plus a PBS station ~60miles away. However, being a avid football fan, I must have an ABC affiliate to watch Monday Night Football this fall. I would really like to pick up WRTV in Indianapolis which is ~68miles away to the east of me @68*. I have two questions; 1) Am I being over optimistic about being able to pull this channel in? 2) How would I add another OTA antenna to my voom OTA antenna?

1) A little about my location. I live in a single story house, and I cannot spend $1000 to put in a 30' tower. I would like to place a tripod mounted mast on top of my roof...which will place the antenna @20-25' (top of house ~15' plus tripod and mast) above the ground. My neighbor across the street does have two tall trees in the general direction of Indianapolis but no major obstacles like hills or mountains. I was curious to see if I could get any signal whatsoever from this ABC station. I went to my voom OTA setup menu to gauge the signal quality, and then I took a simple, amplified indoor antenna up to my rooftop and pointed it towards that ABC station, surprisingly the 'meter' on my voom receiver registered 60-65. I was hopeful that a more sensitive and powerful antenna could do much better in the same spot. Is there any way of testing the strength of that station before getting everything up there? I visited anntenadirect.com and was reccomended the XG91; and from the solidsignal.com, I was told to get a CM 4228. From what I have described, am I being too optimistic about reliably picking up this ABC station? I would MUCH rather watch my football in HD as compared to a basic lifeline cable package that is my alternative.

2) Assuming I get an antenna up and working well, how do I add the new antenna and pre-amp to my existing voom OTA antenna? Currently, the RG6 cable comes from the voom OTA antenna to the switch at the back of the dish, then a RG6 cable is sent to each of my 3 receivers which enter the receiver through a diplexer on the back of the voom receiver.

Thanks,
Adam

Adam,

Since you didn't leave a zip code I'll give you best guess. Yes you should be able to get the ABC if there's no obstacles like large mountains or very tall buildings near by. A good UHF CM 4228 or antennas direct 91xg will go easily over 70 miles in the right conditions. You may have to ditch the diplexers for they may cause a problem. You can make a seperate run for the antenna RG6 if you must ditch the diplexers. I assume the voom antenna is the wing from Winegard? You can remove it all together and try using their existing RG6 first.

First I'd go to antennaweb.org and put in your address and see what stations they list for your location.

Second if they don't list a digital ABC don't get exicited they are very conservative. Get the call letters for the station you want and go to this link
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html
and see if you are in their coverage area. Use the green section only and submit. Look for the red digital for the station and click on alternate map to see their coverage area. If you within there coverage then you should be able to get them. Look for the lowest digital ERP (effective radiated power) for they may still be at low power till July 1.

Third take note if all the digitals you want are UHF or if some are VHF and if so what channel VHF.

Fourth you will need a very good UHF (more then likely) you'll going to need an antennas direct 91xg or Channel Master 4228. You may also need a rotor if you have stations in different directions. You may also need a CM 7777 amp.

Get back to the forum with your info from antenna web and the FCC and one of us should be able to give you more specfic help.

Originally posted by airbrat
Nice! But will this model pick up VHF? It doesnt mention it on their website. I can't miss my UPN!

If you asking about the 4228 it will pick up some high band VHF. Need to know how far away VHF and what channel. If it's above channel 9 you probably got a good shot. Make sure they are at full power. You can call and ask the station engineer or got to the FCC sight. The station engineers I have found to be very helpful.

Originally posted by jimc705
If you looking for the 4228 then warrens has it on sale for 39.50 I believe.
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/4228.htm

Great price, I paid $50 for an out-of-box one, and consider it money well spent.

Originally posted by jimc705
Adam,

Since you didn't leave a zip code I'll give you best guess. Yes you should be able to get the ABC if there's no obstacles like large mountains or very tall buildings near by. A good UHF CM 4228 or antennas direct 91xg will go easily over 70 miles in the right conditions. You may have to ditch the diplexers for they may cause a problem. You can make a seperate run for the antenna RG6 if you must ditch the diplexers. I assume the voom antenna is the wing from Winegard? You can remove it all together and try using their existing RG6 first.

First I'd go to antennaweb.org and put in your address and see what stations they list for your location.

Second if they don't list a digital ABC don't get exicited they are very conservative. Get the call letters for the station you want and go to this link
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio/tvq.html
and see if you are in their coverage area. Use the green section only and submit. Look for the red digital for the station and click on alternate map to see their coverage area. If you within there coverage then you should be able to get them. Look for the lowest digital ERP (effective radiated power) for they may still be at low power till July 1.

Third take note if all the digitals you want are UHF or if some are VHF and if so what channel VHF.

Fourth you will need a very good UHF (more then likely) you'll going to need an antennas direct 91xg or Channel Master 4228. You may also need a rotor if you have stations in different directions. You may also need a CM 7777 amp.

Get back to the forum with your info from antenna web and the FCC and one of us should be able to give you more specfic help.

Zip code is 47805, but when I use my address, I get more stations

A map image is attached, evidently Terre Hatue falls just outside the blue line ( I am on the northside of Terre Haute)

ERP 898 kW

Would it be possible though to keep that other OTA antenna, I don't really want to mess with a rotor, as one of my voom receivers will be hooked up to my Tivo. The station out of Indy is at 69* whereas my local stations are roughly all at 182*

Originally posted by airbrat
Nice! But will this model pick up VHF? It doesnt mention it on their website. I can't miss my UPN!

Well, this one is a mystery to me. KBEJ seems not to have a digital channel. None. Not an STA. Not an application. Nothing. Maybe someone else knows whats going on with this, but it looks like KBEJ-2 will disappear with the end of the analog era. I've *never* come across this in all my research of various markets and channels. I'm baffled.

No UHF antenna is going to do an acceptable job on lo-VHF channels, especially channel 2. You'll need a VHF/UHF combo antenna to get a decent signal. Knowing how far you are from the transmitters would help us give you the best models for your area, but be prepared, these antennas are usually very big.

well according to antennaweb.org channel 2 (UPN) is 40 miles from me. As of right now I get a lot of snow and ghosting on that channel. Can you guys make a antenna recommendation for me?

* yellow - uhf KABB-DT 29.1 FOX SAN ANTONIO TX 149° 21.2 30
* yellow - uhf KVDA-DT 38.1 TEL SAN ANTONIO TX 147° 21.3 38
* yellow - uhf KRRT-DT 35.1 WB KERRVILLE TX 270° 28.6 32
* yellow - uhf KSAT-DT 12.1 ABC SAN ANTONIO TX 149° 22.9 48
* yellow - uhf WOAI-DT 4.1 NBC SAN ANTONIO TX 150° 22.7 58
* green - uhf KHCE-DT 16.1 TBN SAN ANTONIO TX 147° 21.7 16
* lt green - uhf KPXL-DT 26 PAX UVALDE TX Awaiting FCC Permit 269° 38.0 26
* red - vhf KLRN-DT 9.1 PBS SAN ANTONIO TX 161° 17.1 8
* red - uhf KWEX-DT 41.1 UNI SAN ANTONIO TX 147° 21.4 39
* red - vhf KBEJ-DT 2 UPN FREDERICKSBURG TX 11-05 338° 40.8 2
* red - uhf KENS-DT 5.1 CBS SAN ANTONIO TX 150° 22.7 55

Originally posted by airbrat
* red - vhf KBEJ-DT 2 UPN FREDERICKSBURG TX 11-05 338° 40.8 2
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=434937&highlight=lowband

Originally posted by airbrat
well according to antennaweb.org channel 2 (UPN) is 40 miles from me.

I had a Winegard HD-7084P on my roof for a while, and got very good reception of VHF signals for 50 miles or so. (After that, the picture became more fuzzy and not as clear, but I got usable signals from 110 miles away.) You may need to add a preamplifier to the mix.

I thought preamps was a bad thing?

Originally posted by airbrat
I thought preamps was a bad thing?They can be bad in that all they do is help, in layman's terms, the signal that hits your antenna get to your TV without losing strength. And therein is the badness: If it's a strong incoming signal, I'm told a preamp can keep it too strong and in electricity terms overload the circuit and you'll not get anything, as I believe happened to me.

Another thing, I'm told that a preamp will not make an incoming weak signal stronger. All of its work is done the moment the signal leaves the antenna enroute to your TV.

Originally posted by terfmop

Would it be possible though to keep that other OTA antenna, I don't really want to mess with a rotor, as one of my voom receivers will be hooked up to my Tivo. The station out of Indy is at 69* whereas my local stations are roughly all at 182*

Yes you can keep the exisiting antenna but you'll need a seperate coax run for the new antenna and an A/B switch for each receiver you wish to have the second antenna displayed. Radio Shack has both manual and IR remote A/B switches. The IR is about $35 I believe but sure beats getting up to change antennas manually. If you going to use seldomly then a $5 manual will do. This way you can keep the TIVO on the Voom antenna while you watch the other antenna from a different receiver. You can then leave the diplexer on the Voom receivers and if you need to add a preamp, the Voom receiver will supply the DC needed to the amp. Be sure the A/B switch passes DC I believe they all do.

As for reception of ABC you are out of their primary service area but barely. They are at channel 25 low for UHF with relatively high power. It's going to be tuff and you may or may not get it. The CM 4228 is very good at this frequency and I personally did a head to head comparison with the 91XG and the Cm 4228. The 4228 and 91xg are about equal at 25. The 91xg is a little less prone to multipath from the sides. My 91XG picks up channel 27 here which is at low power 5.38KW and 70 miles out reliably. I too am outside their coverage area and not using an amp. You must decide if it's worth a shot. The 4228 presently is $39.50 from Warrens mentioned earlier in forum. Around $50 with shipping. They are in IN I believe so you may be close enough to pick up. The Antennas Direct is less then $100 with shipping but you can return it for a refund. The only loss then of course is shipping. I believe with either you get more stations.

You said if you put in your actual address antennaweb showed more stations. This is true. They are address sensitive. My neighbor who is higher then me but only about 1/4 mile away gets more channels as per antennaweb. Yes they are correct he does but he's on top of the hill and I'm halfway up. They also show me getting but 2 DTV channels and I get 16 DTV's relably. 6 of these I'm out of there coverage area. Yes some are on the other side of the hill and had to go with the 91XG to get them. The 4228 also gets them equally up to about channel 34 then the 91xg does a sligtly better job to about the mid 50's when they start equally out again. Above 60 the 4228 is superior but I only have 2 channels that high both analog. Shortly there be no channels in that range anyway. The 4228 seems to be a smidget better at channel 30 ,my weakest station, at maintaining a lock but again it's a smidget.

If I were you I go with the CM and see if you can get it. If you can't then you can always replace the wing with the 4228 and increase the other digital signals. If you can't get ABC with the 4228 then you're not going to with any antenna. I'd check with your locals and see what they got and their results. Every case is different and even across the street may be different. I believe this would be my course of action. I can't believe ABC doesn't have a digital somewhere close enough that the 4228 won't get it.

You may also call the station enigineers for I have found them to be helpful in most cases. They may be able to tell you what success you may have with the 4228. Some are very much into digital reception and love hearing from us what is working and what isn't.

Originally posted by Bill Johnson
They can be bad in that all they do is help, in layman's terms, the signal that hits your antenna get to your TV without losing strength.

Another thing, I'm told that a preamp will not make an incoming weak signal stronger. All of its work is done the moment the signal leaves the antenna enroute to your TV.

This used to be the accepted wisdom. No longer. Read here:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/basics.html

The important section: "Actually there is a reason to think the external amplifier is quieter than the receiver. Long ago designers made an effort to make the TV’s first amplifier stage very quiet. But now 90% of homes use cable or satellite boxes (strong sources) and most of the rest are rural homes using antennas that have mast-mounted amplifiers. So the TV’s noise is rarely a factor. Many TV makers no longer put any effort into making their sets quiet."

I'd follow his advice and make sure you can return the preamp. For me, it's done nothing but good things, but my closest stations are about 30 miles away. Once you get inside 20 miles, they generally overload. For airbrat's location, he's right on the edge of where they might do more harm than good for the local stuff.

Preamplifiers aren't bad. They just aren't magic. Some people think "I add a preamplifier, and my reception is automatically a lot better." Not always so. Especially if multipath is an issue (looks like ghosting on analog channels.)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sregener
[B]Well, this one is a mystery to me. KBEJ seems not to have a digital channel. None.


Looks like you are correct. I have found a few stations one right here in Morristown 61 that have no digital channel. Very weird for everyone is suppose to be digital by 2008. They must have special permission to broadcast analog until the cut off. I noticed most are extremely small stations independent stations which may not be able to come up with the money to convert.

I know Knoxville has put there UPN on a sub channel with CBS which may be the case here. Instead of building a seperate transmitter. He may want to check with his digital stations to see if one of them has UPN as the sub channel. Of course that means no HD UPN untill they decide to build a sperate transmitter or wait for MPEG 4 approval from the FCC.

For those of you like me that are curious about combining antennas, I came across this informative site.... http://www.tvantenna.com/support/tutorials/combining.html

Originally posted by terfmop
For those of you like me that are curious about combining antennas, I came across this informative site.... http://www.tvantenna.com/support/tutorials/combining.html

I recall criticizing that site in a previous thread here a couple of years ago.

In particular, the advice that the coax lengths be exactly the same is simply wrong. That advice only applies to stacked antennas that are pointed at the same transmitter whose signals are deliberately being added to one another.

The caveat that Jointennas cannot be used to combine adjacent channels is insufficient for UHF application. Channel Master actually recommends not using them to integrate any UHF channel withing 5 channels of another desired channel. I can usually get away with using them to combine UHF channels within three channels of each other because I have a spectrum analyzer and can fine tune them to minimize conflicts.

The recommendation that antennas in the same horizontal plane due to the constraints of attic height be at least one wavelength apart is idealistic but relatively unimportant if the antennas are at right or sharply oblique angles to one another.

The recommendation that antennas mounted on the same mast be one half wavelength apart is good advice, but I can tell you that in most instances, you can get away with 1/4 wavelength, which is about 4-1/2 feet for channel 2.

The remarks about using filters to reduce or eliminate rear undesired signals are incomprehensible and therefore cannot be further commented upon.

Originally posted by Bill Johnson
On my Va. topo map, I'm at 38.2 N. Lat. & 79.2 W. Lon. and on a plain old regular map I'm 2 mi. SW of Churchville.

There's a gap in the Blue Ridge at Afton Mtn. which I believe gives me kind of LOS to Richmond towers if my ruler doesn't lie; but almost 100 miles? Man!

And the DC signals are coming 125 mi. over some approx. 4000 ft. peaks and at an oblique angle to boot. Plus there's zero leaf effect for me in the summer so I've always been skeptical of diffraction coming into play. I even frequently pull in the 90 kW WETA-DT so something's at work I don't understand.
Bill - I see the notch near Afton and your LOS is close. So that might explain Richmond. But DC has to go over about 3400 feet of mountain. I think it has to be refraction that is working there. That is about the only thing that would be steady and reliable at that distance.

Originally posted by jimc705
Very weird for everyone is suppose to be digital by 2008. They must have special permission to broadcast analog until the cut off. I noticed most are extremely small stations independent stations which may not be able to come up with the money to convert.

Looking at it a little closer, is appears that KBEJ went on the air after January 1st, 1998. They're running full power (100kw) on analog, so I'm sure they don't want to lose their license. I don't know when the cutoff was for granting stations a digital transition station, but it seems they're close to the one I remember.

Translators have not yet been permitted to select a new digital frequency, as they have to wait for the "primary" stations to select their permanent frequencies. Only then can it be determined what frequencies they can occupy without interfering.

Originally posted by quarque
Bill - I see the notch near Afton and your LOS is close. So that might explain Richmond. But DC has to go over about 3400 feet of mountain. I think it has to be refraction that is working there. That is about the only thing that would be steady and reliable at that distance.

Bill Johnson and I are both in the same general neck of the woods, and both puzzled at some of the stations we can bring in but -- because of the distance, etc. -- shouldn't be able to. Maybe from our experience someone can figure out why we do so well, with the thought of helping others in the future. In my case, I'm at Bridgewater, Va., 38.3841N 79.0322W, elevation 1192. With a ChannelMaster 4248 and 7777 preamp mounted on a two-story mast I get WRLH-Richmond (FOX-35) solidly, all the time. Looking on the map at Pasture Fence Mountain and Rockfish Gap, I don't think I can have a line of sight.

(Closer to home, I also get WUSA's analog translator just fine, and there's a definite hill between here and there. Don't think a line of sight is possible, but there it is, strong as can be on UHF 18. (Southern Rockingham, W18AA [18] 0.51 0.00 N H 38°23'34"N 78°46'13"W TX-LIC WUSA (9 CBS)).

willie

sregener,
KBEJ applied for their CP after the DTV assignment window closed. They filed for reconsideration but were denied twice. So they were left out of the original table of allocations.
They have since filed for Ch63-DT in the 1st round of DTV channel elections.
The FCC has not figured out what to do with them because they literally fell through a crack in the process. At one point, new, low-power DTV stations were going to have precedence for a DTV allocation over them, even though they were a full-power broadcaster. In fact every other class of service had precedence over them over them (LP analog, Class-A, etc.).
Additionally, there have been legal problems with the ownership.

some interesting reading for you
home.swbell.net/pjdyer/fred-2.htm

Bob Chase

i am curious as to the major differences between the cm 7775 and 7777 besides the vhf db gain is lower on the 7775 than on the 7777. i believe it's time to ditch the r/s pre amp that i have that's adjustable from 15db to (supposedly ) 30db of gain and it also has a noise rating of 4.5 db. i am using an old winegard UHF only antenna and can receive channel 29 from west palm beach which is approximately 83 miles to the east of me. i can receive other channels digitals from that area too but not as strong as this one. if anyone in the Ft Myers/Lehigh Acres area of S.Florida is having success with hdtv besides our locals,could you tell what equipment you are using? i.e. antenna,preamp,stb,height of antenna and so on?

thanks
here's what i'm using

samsung sir-t451 stb
winegard U630 antenna
25' up
radio shack preamp with fm trap 15db to ?
sony 46" hdtv

Originally posted by quarque
Bill - I see the notch near Afton and your LOS is close. So that might explain Richmond. But DC has to go over about 3400 feet of mountain. I think it has to be refraction that is working there. That is about the only thing that would be steady and reliable at that distance.You may be correct but it is weird. Whether it's refraction or diffraction, it's still the bending of signals through the medium of air and I would think that would make them much less steady and reliable than say if you're 30 miles away with direct LOS. But they're coming to me rock solid 24/7 at a distance of 125 miles so I'm just happy as can be.

Can digital television receivers be overloaded very easily? I have two DISH 811 receivers connected to a ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay antenna in a second story attic. I am 20 miles from the transmitters. Most OTA channels came in fine without an amplifier, but I added a 24 dB amplifier to improve things. It did improve most channels, except one. Ironically, I then added a variable attenuator and when I attenuated that channel it came in. So now I am wondering if I am experiencing overload. May I need a smaller amplifier.

The more that I read about this the more that I think that I am experiencing multipath distortion. Is there any way to tell for sure? I use two DISH 811 receivers and an STB from Wal-Mart on a third set.

Originally posted by Bill Johnson
You may be correct but it is weird. Whether it's refraction or diffraction, it's still the bending of signals through the medium of air and I would think that would make them much less steady and reliable than say if you're 30 miles away with direct LOS. But they're coming to me rock solid 24/7 at a distance of 125 miles so I'm just happy as can be.
Sorry, I meant to say 'diffraction' since 'refraction' implies bending due to a change of medium or a change in the density of the medium. I doubt it could be refaction and be so reliable. But diffraction off the edge of that mountain ridge would be quite steady. We see that effect all the time around my area because of all the hills. The other thing we've seen going on over long distances is reflection off of mountains. We have a person in Canada who is 96 miles due north of Seattle and gets our locals very reliably. But I can see on a topo plot to his location that he has no direct LOS to our towers, just lots of valleys heading in his direction more or less. So his signal might be travelling like a pinball bouncing off various mountains along the way. I did not see any possibility for that in your case with DC.

Originally posted by Jim1348
Can digital television receivers be overloaded very easily? I have two DISH 811 receivers connected to a ChannelMaster 4228 8-bay antenna in a second story attic. I am 20 miles from the transmitters. Most OTA channels came in fine without an amplifier, but I added a 24 dB amplifier to improve things. It did improve most channels, except one. Ironically, I then added a variable attenuator and when I attenuated that channel it came in. So now I am wondering if I am experiencing overload. May I need a smaller amplifier.
Yes, you can overload your receiver. The general consensus is that amplifiers are not usually helpful below 30 miles. But being in an attic is a different situation and might benefit from an amplifier. So the question is why did you need to "improve things"? Were you getting audio and/or video dropouts etc? If not, there would be no reason to add anything to your basic antenna. The attenuator is in effect, lowering your amplifier gain. Changing to a lower gain (and lower noise) amplifier might be the best solution if you *really* do need an amplifier. How long is your cable run?

i have noticed today that i am getting 2 channels trying to come in on one! i.e. 30 is trying to interfere 29 and 36 with 34. could this be a result of a poor antenna amp? i am using the r/s model 15-2507 amplifier and both the stations that i am trying to receive are 180 degrees from the ones that are causing the interference. is this something that if i purchased the cm-7775 or 7777 that i could possibly correct?

thanks

i am also using a winegard UHF only- long range antenna U-630 model

Hi

I am new to over the air digital TV. I have an eyeTV connected to my mac. I use a small indoor RadioShack HDTV antenna. Maybe someone can answer this for me: if CBS, PBS, FOX, and ABC all share the same tower, then I would expect problems such as alignment, obstacles along the line of sight, etc are the same for all. If I get one of them strong and not the others, does that necessarily imply that the problem is not on my end? If the problem is on their end, what is the problem?

thanks for any help.
Pascal:confused:

I have channels overloading other channels even without an amp. Im within 10 miles from 4 analog channels and they pop up on other channels from time to time. Can get quite annoying!

Post #1844 merged in.

Originally posted by pascal D
...if CBS, PBS, FOX, and ABC all share the same tower, then I would expect problems such as alignment, obstacles along the line of sight, etc are the same for all. If I get one of them strong and not the others, does that necessarily imply that the problem is not on my end? If the problem is on their end, what is the problem?There could be a variety of problems:
1. Stations transmitting at different power levels even tho on same tower.

2. Stations having different patterns in sending out their signals.

3. Stations having transmitters at different heights on the tower. (A few feet seems inconsequential, but it can make a big difference.)

4. Receiving antennas are notorious for being able to pull in wave lengths of some frequencies and being totally out to lunch on others.

5. Who knows what else because many say getting good OTA reception is a crap shoot with no rhyme or reason.

Originally posted by Bill Johnson
There could be a variety of problems:
1. Stations transmitting at different power levels even tho on same tower.

2. Stations having different patterns in sending out their signals.

3. Stations having transmitters at different heights on the tower. (A few feet seems inconsequential, but it can make a big difference.)

4. Receiving antennas are notorious for being able to pull in wave lengths of some frequencies and being totally out to lunch on others.

5. Who knows what else because many say getting good OTA reception is a crap shoot with no rhyme or reason.

Don't forget co-channel interference from analogs in adjacent markets. It's one of the biggest problems right now with reception in the fringe and near-fringe IMO.

Pascal,
I'm not sure where "Chester" is, but if you'll give your distance from those stations and the market you're in it can help to be able to advise you. You probably need a better antenna.

I live about 35-45 miles from most of the stations (Lexington, KY) I am trying to receive, in between some palisades and a hill. My HD tuner is built-in to my Hitachi 57S715. The antenna is mounted in the attic for aesthetic reasons and I doubt I will be able to move it outside.

Originally I had the largest available UHF only antenna from Radio Shack that I bought 7 years ago when I had satellite TV. I tried using this antenna with a RS 15-2507 30dB amplifier and was only able to get the local KET and ABC feeds in HD. After I finally figured out that I needed a VHF antenna to get the local CBS feeds I bought a CM3016 and CM3041DSB amplifier from Lowes in desperation to see the UK games in the NCAA tournament . With this configuration I was getting signal strengths of ABC - 71%, CBS - 60%, KET - 60%. These values results in a audio dropouts and occasional pixelation on the CBS feed, the ABC feed seems to be okay, and I haven't watched the KET feed enough to comment on its quality. I then tried a larger CM3018 (this is the largest antenna I can get in my attic) and it didn't seem to improve the signal by more than a couple of points. I also tried the RS amplifier instead of the CM and it only added a point or two as well.

My question is...what other antenna/amplifier configurations should I consider or am I just at my limits for my environment? Remember this is an attic mount situation. I am hesitant to order anything that can't be returned based on the above experiences.

Would the CM7777 provide a significant improvement over the CM3041DSB or the RS amplifier?

Would going to a CM4228 and a separate VHF only antenna like the Winegard HD4053P or PR5030 along with a CM7777 provide any significant improvement?

Also, assuming the answer to the above questions are no and I stay with one of my current options is there anything other than overall signal strength that I should consider in whether to keep the 3018 over the 3016 and the RS amp over the CM amp?

I have the same exact TV and love it... if you have cable and your provider has HD channels you might try doing a scan with the cable on ANT A. I was suprised when my TV started picking up all kinds of digital channels on my basic cable(around $12 a month). This is the built in QAM tuner in the TV. All of the locals in HD were there including a few other misc digital channels.

Originally posted by fuzzman99
I live about 35-45 miles from most of the stations (Lexington, KY) I am trying to receive, in between some palisades and a hill. My HD tuner is built-in to my Hitachi 57S715. The antenna is mounted in the attic for aesthetic reasons and I doubt I will be able to move it outside.

Originally I had the largest available UHF only antenna from Radio Shack that I bought 7 years ago when I had satellite TV. I tried using this antenna with a RS 15-2507 30dB amplifier and was only able to get the local KET and ABC feeds in HD. After I finally figured out that I needed a VHF antenna to get the local CBS feeds I bought a CM3016 and CM3041DSB amplifier from Lowes in desperation to see the UK games in the NCAA tournament . With this configuration I was getting signal strengths of ABC - 71%, CBS - 60%, KET - 60%. These values results in a audio dropouts and occasional pixelation on the CBS feed, the ABC feed seems to be okay, and I haven't watched the KET feed enough to comment on its quality. I then tried a larger CM3018 (this is the largest antenna I can get in my attic) and it didn't seem to improve the signal by more than a couple of points. I also tried the RS amplifier instead of the CM and it only added a point or two as well.

My question is...what other antenna/amplifier configurations should I consider or am I just at my limits for my environment? Remember this is an attic mount situation. I am hesitant to order anything that can't be returned based on the above experiences.

Would the CM7777 provide a significant improvement over the CM3041DSB or the RS amplifier?

Would going to a CM4228 and a separate VHF only antenna like the Winegard HD4053P or PR5030 along with a CM7777 provide any significant improvement?

Also, assuming the answer to the above questions are no and I stay with one of my current options is there anything other than overall signal strength that I should consider in whether to keep the 3018 over the 3016 and the RS amp over the CM amp?

Put an Antennasdirect XG91 outside on a rotor with a Winegard PR 5030 or Antennacraft 3BG17 or 22 mounted about 60 inches underneath and pointed towards Lexington. Use the CM 7777 which will allow you to diplex them as well. You'll then have all the Lex. channels and probably all the Louisville channels (all UHF, via the rotor) as well. You could do the same in the attic but outside would be my choice.

Forgot about WB 8 from Louisville but I think it's still low power anyway and I don't think they do HD.

Thank you for the replies. The Chester in question is Chester, VA 23831. I checked on antenna.org and I should get decent reception - I just don't, or at least, it is not consistently good. I have an antenna in my attic and get OK reception with my analog system. I would like to migrate to DTV, but bad reception on DTV is worse than bad reception on analog TV. I wonder if broadcaster are still tweaking their system and things will get better when the migration is over; or whether my only option will be to subscribe to cable or satellite.

Originally posted by cpcat
Don't forget co-channel interference from analogs in adjacent markets. It's one of the biggest problems right now with reception in the fringe and near-fringe IMO.

Pascal,
I'm not sure where "Chester" is, but if you'll give your distance from those stations and the market you're in it can help to be able to advise you. You probably need a better antenna.

Originally posted by pascal D
Thank you for the replies. The Chester in question is Chester, VA 23831. I checked on antenna.org and I should get decent reception - I just don't, or at least, it is not consistently good. I have an antenna in my attic and get OK reception with my analog system. I would like to migrate to DTV, but bad reception on DTV is worse than bad reception on analog TV. I wonder if broadcaster are still tweaking their system and things will get better when the migration is over; or whether my only option will be to subscribe to cable or satellite.

All the digitals from Richmond are UHF. A CM 4221 in your attic should do the trick at around 15 miles. You shouldn't need a preamp. If you were using a VHF or combo VHF/UHF antenna before for analog it may not have an adequate UHF section for your needs now,
especially in the attic. Go to http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp and punch in your coordinates for precise compass bearing to the towers. A good site for determination of latitude/longitude is http://terraserver.microsoft.com/.

I don't know much about the Eye TV you're using, although it seems pretty cool from a review I saw when I googled it. The tuner section could be subpar, though. I'd try the antenna first. It should be less than 30 bucks.

I am trying the Amplified UHF/VHF HDTV ANtenna 15-1880 on the second floor and the VHF/UHF amplified Antenna 15-1847A in the attic, both from RadioShack. I get poor reception on both. I hate going through antennas one after the other.

The EyeTv is awesome, when the reception is good.

Originally posted by cpcat
All the digitals from Richmond are UHF. A CM 4221 in your attic should do the trick at around 15 miles. You shouldn't need a preamp. If you were using a VHF or combo VHF/UHF antenna before for analog it may not have an adequate UHF section for your needs now,
especially in the attic. Go to and punch in your coordinates for precise compass bearing to the towers. A good site for determination of latitude/longitude is

I don't know much about the Eye TV you're using, although it seems pretty cool from a review I saw when I googled it. The tuner section could be subpar, though. I'd try the antenna first. It should be less than 30 bucks.

Originally posted by pascal D
I am trying the Amplified UHF/VHF HDTV ANtenna 15-1880 on the second floor and the VHF/UHF amplified Antenna 15-1847A in the attic, both from RadioShack. I get poor reception on both. I hate going through antennas one after the other.

First off, at 11 miles, you should be skipping anything that says "amplified" on it. That's not going to work very well for you.

If it was me, I'd try a Zenith Silver Sensor without any amplifier and see what I get. If things are still bad, you're probably going to have to go with an outdoor-style antenna (which you may be able to fit in your attic) like the Channel Master 4221.

Since you're in Chester I used to live in Richmond. I know you have some rolling hills a lots of tree foilage in some areas. Are you in one of those holes in southside? If you are the silver sensor probably won't do the job. The 4221 in the attic (if you can direct it probably). Outside will be a definite plus and if you in a hole as high as possible.

Originally posted by jimc705
Since you're in Chester I used to live in Richmond. I know you have some rolling hills a lots of tree foilage in some areas. Are you in one of those holes in southside? If you are the silver sensor probably won't do the job. The 4221 in the attic (if you can direct it probably). Outside will be a definite plus and if you in a hole as high as possible.

Hey Jim,
Did you check out the Y10 7-13 stack I put up? I'm finally getting WKYT DT-13 from Lexington pretty consistently after much sweat and tears. Still tweaking on things, though. I have a barely used Funke psp 1922 (vhf 7-13) if you're interested. I'll be coming through Morristown Thursday on the way to Dollywood.
Charles

I'm completely new to this as you can probably tell from the Subject. I picked up a Syntax Olevia 26" at RcWilleys in Boise, a MyHD MDP-130 for my computer online, and a HD antenna at Wa-mart. I hooked it all together and everything worked great right out of the box, but I could not get 10,13 and 28 no matter where I moved the small HD antenna, within the confines of the room that my setup is located in. Already having an antenna up in attic for the local channels but hardly being used (we have DirecTV) I decided to make the connection to this antenna, and lo and behold they all work ... and with increased signal strength. Now ... my perception was that you needed the small footprint antenna for HD, and the large antenna for analog ...similar the FM/AM radio. So .... am I right in assuming that the bigger the antenna, the better? The one thing I did notice though, is that the small antenna is very sensitive to pointing.

Bigger is always better for reception (but may be harder to set up, if overly directional).
A "small" HD antenna is probably UHF only, so it would be expected that 10 and 13 wouldn't come in, as they are VHF.

Note that digital TV and analog TV are broadcast on the same range of channels.
An Antenna that is good for one is good for the other.

This is for those of you who often wondered which antenna is better. The CM 4228 or Antennas Direct 91XG. Note this is a single case and may not be the case in your situtation and by no means scientific evalulation.

My local digitals come from 2 DMA's Tri cities (Johnson City, Bristol, Greenville, and Kingsport) and Knoxville TN. I had a 91XG mounted about 15 feet of the ground. The 91 XG did a great job on all the signals from the tri cities and beyond (Norton and Grundy VA.) around 60 to 70 air miles signal in the 90 + range. Pretty much straight shot up the valley a few rolling hills to get over. After adding a CM 7777 most went to 95 to 99 signal. All networks and PBS very reliable with extremely rare drop.

My Knoxvilles were the tough dogs at only 40 + miles. I'm on the east side of a small hill. I'm about 1/3 down from the top. Knoxville of course was over the top of this hill west from me. The hill from here goes up rapidly about 100 yards to top. My antennas do not clear this hill so I do tilt them upward slightly towards horizon.

The 91 XG after some searching for a good location. I finally found a spot where I could get all the Knoxvilles with exception of PAX from Jellico. This is why the antenna is at the 15 foot level. Higher I loose CBS and PBS but did get the others a tad stronger. ABC ,NBC, Fox, WB all around the same signal level 87 to 90. Even here I could barely maintain a lock on CBS at 83 to 84 and PBS right at 85 min. strength level allowing for bad weather lock. I added the CM 7777. To my surprise towards Knoxville not much help. My signal to noise is very high 75:25 so this may be why the amp did not help much. CBS may have jumped to 84 more often but I usually would not be able to watch CBS during daytime hours. The SNR had no change with the amp. Of course during a game it would never work and had to turn torward Tri Cities for CBS reliable signal. Naturally the wife wants Knoxvilles and not VA news which the tri cities do a lot of and ignore us here in Morristown. I am outside their coverage area in fairness to them.

Well fairly happy with results all my networks reliable if not from one direction then the other. I figured I can live with it.

My mother in WV needed a new antenna where she moved to and after some playing with a Wing from Winegard I got her 2 digitals Fox and NBC. She's has mountains all around her and it's very tough. I decided to get a 4228 so I can give it a head to head with my 91xg and also get her a descent UHF for her OTA digitals. When Warrens put it on sale I ordered it.

I took the signal level before pulling down the 91XG and wrote them down. Then put up the 4228 in the exact spot the 91XG was within minutes of each other. Results I didn't expect. Below Knoxville results. The CM 7777 was constantly hooked up to both antennas for these readings.

channel signal 4228 signal 91XG

17 *83 to 85 85 to 87 * cannot watch too many drops
23 *40 to 81 * 50 to 70 * No Lock with either antenna
26 87 to 88 88 to 89
30 84 to86 84 to 86 This is my problem child see notes
31 87 to 88 88 to 90
34 86 to 87 87 to 89
41 97 (back side) no backside reception lock.
48 88 to 90 88 to 89
50 off air ? 86 to 88 * ocassionally would not lock
61 excellent very good - this is an anlog only station no digitals here in this channel range. Tower 5 miles max low power station.

68 very good good to very good - again analog only no meter for signal strength.

As you can see not much difference. The 4228 seem to be better at the high end over the 91xg. The 91xg seem better at the low end channel 17 and 26 and even through the mid 30's. The 4228 did a hair better on 41,48, digitals 61 and 68 analog channels. The 4228 did a better job on all analog UHF channels. It should be the opposite since the 91xg is a yagi and should be superior on the high channels. Channel 50 readings were from before the 91XG was taken down. They have been off the air for about a week now and have no 4228 readings yet.

With that out of way the SNR had no significant change.

Channel 17 had drop outs to the point you could not watch 17 on the 4228. The 91 XG would maintain a good lock on this channel with a very rare drop.

Channel 30 CBS my problem child! Signal strength and SNR readings are the same. The 4228 however maintains a lock much better then the 91XG. I can now watch CBS from Knoxville during the day with very few drops and at night with no drops. The 91xg was sometimes great no drops and sometimes unwatchable during daylight hours.

Channel 30 and 34 signal dropped a hair with the 4228 but I still have plenty of signal for a lock on those channels.

I have left the 4228 up for a week now to be sure this wasn't a freak. It seems to be steady and gets stronger signals when it rains for some reason. (The 91XG did this also).

One fact you may want to note. The 4228 allowed me to get channel 41 when I was pointing about 170 degrees in the wrong direction. The 91 XG must have a very high front to back ratio and didn't even nudge the meter when it was pointed that direction. Channel 41 is only 17 miles at full power so this may explain why the 4228 received from the rear. The good VHF reception must be from the screen for it's backside VHF is very good.

As for my strong signals from the tri cities.

All these where pretty much equal. A tick or 2 better with the 91xg were channels 28 ,32, 38, equal were 27, and 48. Notably better with the 4228 was 58 about 3 ticks better. The 4228 on these strong signals was less directional then the 91XG. I could find a spot were I got all these without moving the antenna. The 91XG would never pick all these up in one position and required a bump of about 5 to 10 degrees either way.

Next I'll be moving the 4228 to the tri pod on the roof about 10 feet higher.
The 91XG would only get 26 and 50 at that height toward Knoxville. All the tri city stations are a smidget stronger. Also at that height I could get an occasional lock on channel 25 and 56 Ashville NC. over the mountains and south. I"ll let you know how the 4228 does when I try it later.

Please note this was a head to head here at my location. Your results could be different. Equipment used for readings were the Motorola DSR 550 Voom receiver. RG 6 run 35 feet with a CM 7777 amp installed. This signal is not split and is a straight run to the receiver with only the amp and power supply between. This is FYI and not a recomendation of one over the other. It does appear the 91xg is better at the low channels and has better multipath rejection especially from the rear. The 4228 has far superior analog reception and VHF acceptance again especially from the rear. In case noted below it also maintain a lock with the same signal levels better then the 91XG but suffered from low channels drops.

Other info. The 4228 had a conflict with my dipole apparently. The dipole is mounted directly above the 91XG and 4228. I us it only for DT 7 and could get a steady 84 to 86 with the 91XG on the pole. The 4228 has killed the VHF reception of my dipole to low 60's and I no longer can get 7. This may be because they are too close together or that the Dipoles coax runs behind the 4228 to the booster which is located directly at the bottom of the 4228.

Also worth noting channel 7 is 40+ miles away and the 4228 will very rarely lock on this VHF channel. This is not reliable hit and miss with lots of drops. The 91XG would never lock on this channel. Thus the reason for my dipole. Requires signal of 81 to lock. The 91xg was only in the 60's on this channel. VHF high band much better apparently on the 4228.

Channel 2 analog only 17 miles and full power looks excellent on either antenna. 6, 8 and 10 analogs with the 4228 at 40 miles. 6 unwatchable 8 and 10 good with ghost. Analog 5,11 at 60 miles good even off the backside. The 4228 does better at these VHF frequencies but the 91 XG also would get these channles but not as well especially 5 and 6. 5 and 11 on the 4228 were very good with no ghost and 2 being full power and but 17 miles direct line of sight excellent.

My conclusion it's a draw! In my particular case where I have a channel 30 problem. It fixed the problem but created a channel 17 problem. 17 being PBS is no a problem for I have channel 41 also PBS which is my strongest digital and simulcast everything 17 does.

In your case if you are having trouble with lower channels 35 and down the 91XG seems a smidget better. 35 through 50 about the same and above 50 the 4228 takes all comers. Multipath problems the 91xg appears to be better.

I hope this may help someone somewhere. I believe these to be the 2 best domestic UHF antennas on the market available locally in most cases. The 91XG is an import (I believe) and not made in USA. It does have the best warranty of all antennas.

Originally posted by cpcat
Hey Jim,
Did you check out the Y10 7-13 stack I put up? I'm finally getting WKYT DT-13 from Lexington pretty consistently after much sweat and tears. Still tweaking on things, though. I have a barely used Funke psp 1922 (vhf 7-13) if you're interested. I'll be coming through Morristown Thursday on the way to Dollywood.
Charles

Charles,
Not sure if it would help. How much you want for it? Like to give it a shot especially (if you saw my last post) the 4228 did a hurt on my dipole. I'd be happy with 12 from Hazard but it may also help 7 and 10 when they convert back. Email me back what you want for it at jimc705@yahoo.com. Do you go down 25E? If so I can meet you at the end of my road maybe. I give you a cell number and you can give me a shout when your close. I'm just across the Cherokee lake bridge about 1/2 mile.

Glad to hear you're getting some Lexington stations. Kentucky is pretty quiet for me. east west and south not much north.

Heres the problem. I live about 50 miles from the digital antenna farm in Bithlo, Fla. They are NNE from me, and there is reasonably open terrain in front of my antenna. In order to semi-appease the HOA fuddy-duddies, I am using an eave mounted Winegard Square shooter in conjunction with a CM 7777 preamp driving about 75 feet of RG-6 in to an RCA D* HD receiver (excellent receiver, in my opinion). So, I get all the OTA channels flawlessly (85-100% signal strength) except NBC, which is the only VHF signal (channel 11). I don't even get a whiff of the channel on the signal strength meter. And yes, the switches are set correctly inside the 7777 (as shipped) to combine UHF and VHF.
As market #20, I would assume that in the next year or so D* will be providing me LiL channels, so I don't want to start changing antennas, etc. It just seems remarkable that I have no problems with any of the UHF channels, but get nothing at all on the only VHF channel.
Any thoughts on this strange problem?

Originally posted by mgtr
Heres the problem. I live about 50 miles from the digital antenna farm in Bithlo, Fla. They are NNE from me, and there is reasonably open terrain in front of my antenna. In order to semi-appease the HOA fuddy-duddies, I am using an eave mounted Winegard Square shooter in conjunction with a CM 7777 preamp driving about 75 feet of RG-6 in to an RCA D* HD receiver (excellent receiver, in my opinion). So, I get all the OTA channels flawlessly (85-100% signal strength) except NBC, which is the only VHF signal (channel 11). I don't even get a whiff of the channel on the signal strength meter. And yes, the switches are set correctly inside the 7777 (as shipped) to combine UHF and VHF.
As market #20, I would assume that in the next year or so D* will be providing me LiL channels, so I don't want to start changing antennas, etc. It just seems remarkable that I have no problems with any of the UHF channels, but get nothing at all on the only VHF channel.
Any thoughts on this strange problem?

Not very strange at all considering the Squareshooter's poor performance on VHF. See http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html . It has around -21db gain at channel 11.

cpcat-
Very interesting and useful info. I would say that explains 100% of the problem. I would be much better off with rabbit ears for VHF! I will have to some experimenting to see how best to address this problem (it may well be that ignoring it is the best solution!)
I will report back if anything worthwhile occurs. Thanks for helping to make this forum so valuable.

MGTR you may want to give a dipole in the attic or a protected area outside a shot. Her's a link on how to build and cut for channel 11. Cost about $5 and 30 minutes of time. good luck.

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

Originally posted by jimc705
...The 4228 however maintains a lock much better then the 91XG. I can now watch CBS from Knoxville during the day with very few drops and at night with no drops.

...It seems to be steady and gets stronger signals when it rains for some reason. (The 91XG did this also).

...The 91 XG must have a very high front to back ratio and didn't even nudge the meter when it was pointed that direction.

...The 4228 on these strong signals was less directional then the 91XG.

The 4228 has a wider beamwidth. This means that when you're getting variable scatter, it's more likely that you'll get the signal with a wider beamwidth. That explains your results with the 4228 being less directional than the 91XG.

My theory about rain is that the cloud cover bounces signals back down. I've seen the same thing, except during very heavy rains (severe thunderstorms) when the amount of moisture in the air blocks the UHF frequencies.

The 91XG has a reported 28db F/B ratio, which is extreme. I've found that it can reject signals very well from the rear, and not too bad from the sides. I think the reflector screen is the best I've ever encountered - which explains why it may do better than the 4228 on the low end - the corner reflector becomes very dominant below channel 25 or so.

The biggest concern with the 4228 has always been wind load - that antenna has a lot of area on it, and when the wind directions are just so, it can act like a sail and put tremendous force on your mount. Unless you are using a ham radio rotor (or only turn your antenna on calm days), your rotor is doomed with a 4228. Think annual replacement.

Originally posted by mgtr
cpcat-
Very interesting and useful info. I would say that explains 100% of the problem. I would be much better off with rabbit ears for VHF! I will have to some experimenting to see how best to address this problem (it may well be that ignoring it is the best solution!)
I will report back if anything worthwhile occurs. Thanks for helping to make this forum so valuable.

Follow Jim's link above for instructions on building a folded dipole for VHF.
It will be easy since you have the 7777: use the separate inputs and change the switch on the inside to "separate". Another helpful site: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html
Here's a picture of a channel 4 dipole I made:

I need some expert advice here. I have been receiving OTA HD for close to a year now and have tried 3 antennas, ending up with an XG-42 Yagi from antennas direct. Up until a month ago I was able to get all the stations I needed (ABC-39, CBS-19, FOX-27, NBC-10, PBS-21, TBS-20, UPN-43, WB-25) with only occasional drops. Now that the trees are adding leaves again, CBS (19) has totally dropped. After several trips to the roof, I found that if I raised the antenna another 4 feet, CBS returns nice and stable. My problem is that at that location I loose ABC, FOX and WB.

My question is, where can I get a passband filter that would only pass channel 19, so that I could add a second antenna at the higher location for CBS only, and then join the two signals. With several channels so close to 19, the filter would need to be pretty steep. I did a google search for such a filter and all I found was a place in Canada that had one for $200. Is this even do-able?

Thanks

Originally posted by cpcat
Another helpful site: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html


Thanks for this link! It verifies my worst fears - I'm getting FM interference on Channel 8! And it's going right through the FM trap on my preamp! My analog picture strongly resembles the third one on his FM page.

The "dark secret" of FM traps is that they usually don't work below 92Mhz (my problem station is at 91.7) I'd pay good money to have that interference go away. (They'll be on digital 41 until the shutoff, and then they'll move back to channel 8.)

Originally posted by f300v10
With several channels so close to 19, the filter would need to be pretty steep. I did a google search for such a filter and all I found was a place in Canada that had one for $200. Is this even do-able?

Doable? Yes. Cheaply? No.

The best thing to do would be to raise your antenna above the trees - 10' above them, if possible. Don't worry about ones more than 200'-300' away. Just get above the ones that are close in.

The second best thing would be to try a different style of antenna like the AntennasDirect DB8. The bowties do tend to do a little better in treed in areas.

The perfect filter option isn't going to be cheap, though you could try Jointennas designed for channels 17 or 16 and see if they work. (They have overlap in about 2 channels in each direction, and since you have nothing below 19 on UHF, they might work out okay.) Individual channel filters with sharp cutoffs are usually $200+, but if that's Canadian dollars...

Originally posted by sregener
Thanks for this link! It verifies my worst fears - I'm getting FM interference on Channel 8! And it's going right through the FM trap on my preamp! My analog picture strongly resembles the third one on his FM page.

The "dark secret" of FM traps is that they usually don't work below 92Mhz (my problem station is at 91.7) I'd pay good money to have that interference go away. (They'll be on digital 41 until the shutoff, and then they'll move back to channel 8.)

I use the FM trap in my 7777 and in *addition* put one in-line right before the TV (the one made by Winegard). It makes a definite difference without them both in. The other thing you could do (if you don't need low band) is to use the hi port of a hi-lo diplexer which will filter everything below channel 7 (including FM). A good and cheap one made by PICO at http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf
I think it only passes DC on the lo port so you'll have to put it last or put it on the antenna.

I've heard a few different opinions on joining two different antennas (2 UHFs pointed in separate directions and located on different masts). I've heard I can simply use a splitter only used in reverse, I've read about using a combiner (like the one at www.antennadirect.com), and also about using a A/B switch. There is a big price difference between the splitter (~$4-$8) and the combiner($16 at antennadirect), can someone tell me which one I should be using?

Also, after reading the descriptions, it looks like the CM 7775 would be my best option for the amplifier (since I am only using UHF antennas). Should I consider a different amp.?

Thanks for helping ignorant souls like me!

Originally posted by terfmop
I've heard a few different opinions on joining two different antennas (2 UHFs pointed in separate directions and located on different masts). I've heard I can simply use a splitter only used in reverse, I've read about using a combiner (like the one at www.antennadirect.com), and also about using a A/B switch. There is a big price difference between the splitter (~$4-$8) and the combiner($16 at antennadirect), can someone tell me which one I should be using?

Also, after reading the descriptions, it looks like the CM 7775 would be my best option for the amplifier (since I am only using UHF antennas). Should I consider a different amp.?

You cannot predict the results of combining two UHF antennas pointed in separate directions using either a simple splitter or a combiner - I'd guess that 75% of the time, it doesn't work for digital reception. The only way this works reliably is if you have *ONE* station in a different direction from all the others and you use a product from Channel Master called a "Jointenna." An A/B switch would also work well, but isn't quite as "automagic."

I don't recommend the 7775 to anyone at this point, as some digital signals will move back to VHF frequencies in a few years, and you'll need a new preamplifier when that happens (the 7775 does not pass VHF.) I'd get a 7777 instead.

Originally posted by sregener
...as some digital signals will move back to VHF frequencies in a few years, and you'll need a new preamplifier when that happens (the 7775 does not pass VHF.) I'd get a 7777 instead.

When will this move be taking place? Which channels will be affected?

Thanks sregener. I tried a CM 4221 4 Bay, and it performed worse than the Yagi. I guess I could try a 4228 or the DB-8, but I just don't think I will see much difference. As far as the trees go, I have pines in front of the house that are 60+ feet. I doubt my wife would allow either a 70' antenna mast, or the use of a chainsaw :-). I looked at the Jointennas listed on the CM website, and all I found in the UHF range were 3 models, the closest one to 19 was the 0585-1 for channels 14-29. I don't think that would work since it would pass 19, 20, 21, 25 and 27 from the second antenna. Atlanta is one of the 10 DMA's that D* is launching HD local-in-local, so I guess I might just have to pass on CBS until then.

Originally posted by terfmop
When will this move be taking place? Which channels will be affected?

Whenever analog shuts off. Who knows when that will be but it will happen sooner or later.

If you have analog stations in the 7-13 range chances are pretty good they'll want to go back to their analog channel number. High VHF is prime real estate as the same coverage area can be had for less power.
You can find out your local stations channel election application result at http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/
Click on your state, area, then the analog station in question's "complete FCC data" then go to "application list" and look for the "FRECT" application which should indicate the station's choice in the first round channel election.

Article on DTV channel selection:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/F_Lung-04.06.05.shtml

Ron

Originally posted by cpcat

Click on your state, area, then the analog station in question's "complete FCC data" then go to "application list" and look for the "FRECT" application which should indicate the station's choice in the first round channel election.

Thanks! That helped, the station I was especially interested in (WRTV out of Indy) put their UHF station (25) as their first choice.

Originally posted by f300v10
I looked at the Jointennas listed on the CM website, and all I found in the UHF range were 3 models, the closest one to 19 was the 0585-1 for channels 14-29. I don't think that would work since it would pass 19, 20, 21, 25 and 27 from the second antenna. Atlanta is one of the 10 DMA's that D* is launching HD local-in-local, so I guess I might just have to pass on CBS until then.

A model 0585-1 Join-tenna has separate bandpass and band reject traps that are tunable to any channel from 14-29. The bandpass width is several channels wide. They typically pass two adjacent lower channels and two adjacent upper channels unscathed, and taper through the third channel away. In other words, if you have one tuned to channel 23, it will pass channels 21-25 like a sieve, beat up channels 20 and 26, and evenly reject 14-19 and 27-69 to full depth, which might be around 20dB.

The band reject circuit on the "All Channels" port is only slightly narrower. If a Join-tenna is tuned to reject channel 23, then it will also wipe out channels 22 and 24, but taper fairly sharply through channels 21 and 25 and not impede 20 or 26 at all. In other words, the reject or notch filter is a couple of channels narrower than is the bandpass filter. With a spectrum analyzer, you can fudge the trap edges by about one channel, but you can't make the pass band or notch bands any narrower.

The other sucky thing about Jointennas is that they are in a unshielded plastic cases, and if you are real close to a channel you are trying to couple, the ingress can wreak havoc on the waveform of the strong, pass-band channel.

I just read f300v10 's earlier post. He seems to need channel 19 from a different vertical plane, but must keep channel 21. He should order a Join-tenna tuned to channel 20. It will pass 19 and 21 from one antenna and couple them with the rest.

If these antennas are on the same mast, then he probably should try to keep the coax lengths to the Join-tenna identical, so that any unintended passed signal is in phase with the intended signal. That assumes that neither the band pass filter or the band reject filter shift the phase of any signals impressed upon them.

On the other hand, it is unlikely that the optimal location for the channel 19 antenna is on the same mast as the other antenna. If a better spot is found elsewhere, then there is no benefit to keeping the cable lengths equal.

I don't know why more people don't just use infrared A/B switches. There are models for $40 or less that can be toggled by any remote control, either by programming it to respond to an infrequently used button, or some other respond to any long duration infrared data stream.

Originally posted by AntAltMike
I don't know why more people don't just use infrared A/B switches. There are models for $40 or less that can be toggled by any remote control, either by programming it to respond to an infrequently used button, or some other respond to any long duration infrared data stream.

I agree that the A/B switches seem to make the most sense for people who watch "live" television. But that number is dwindling as DVRs become more popular.

There also is the trainability factor. For me to explain how to watch television to someone visiting my house takes at least five minutes. And I still come home to find components (including the television itself, with a black screen) left on...

AntAltMike, thanks for the input. The antennas would indeed be on the same mast. The reason I don't just use a switch, is that I have an HR10-250 HD TiVo, and watch almost all my programs recorded. Unless I have an automated way of switching the antenna inputs it wouldn't work.

To re-state what I am trying to do, I would like to get channels 10, 20, 21, 25, 27, 39 and 43 from my current primary antenna, and 19 only from one mounted 4 ft. higher. I have tried positioning my current antenna at 10 different heights and not one currently works for all the above channels. The current position gives me all but 19 perfectly, but next to nothing on 19. The good position for 19 gives bad 10, 20, 25, 27 and 39. 21 and 43 are great at both positions. If I am reading your comments correctly, I could get a 0585-1, tune the band reject to 20 for the primary and join the secondary? That should give me 19, 20 and 21 from the secondary and the rest from the primary? I think I might lose 20 in that case, but I would be willing to trade 20 for 19. Am I reading this correctly? Also do I order the Join-tenna pre-set to 20, or can I adjust it after I get it?

Thanks

You've got it. The Join-tennas are normally ordered and shipped pretuned to the ordered channel. It would be almost impossible for you to further "tweak" its tuning without using a spectrum analyzer, but you shouldn't need to do that with the three insertion channels being adjacent to one another.

Thanks AntAltMike. Would I be better off getting the JoinTenna set to band reject channel 17 as sregener suggested, which should let 14-19 pass, lower 13 and 20 and stop 2-12 and 21-60? I think that would be closest to my original goal of 19 only off the secondary antenna.

Also, the JoinTenna has 2 types of filters a band-pass and a band trap? If I order the unit set to channel 17, will that be the channel setting for both filters? And one last question, is the JoinTenna suitable for outdoor installation?

Thanks for all your help on this. It's knowlegble folks like you that make this forum such a great resource.

You may not have to use the jointennas.Just combine the two antennas using a splitter used backwards and equal length feedlines.You might get lucky:-)

Originally posted by MAX HD
You may not have to use the jointennas.Just combine the two antennas using a splitter used backwards and equal length feedlines.You might get lucky:-)

Well, shoot! Why didn't I think of this sooner?

Get a second identical antenna and combine the two like MAX HD says. If the antennas are identical and the feedlines to the splitter are exactly the same length, you've got yourself a vertical stack and it should work just fine. (Point the antennas in precisely the same direction, too.)

If it doesn't, you could still buy a Jointenna.

But I'm betting that a vertical stack hooked up like this would work great - and it might even improve reception on other stations you're not getting.

OK, I will give that a try. If it doesn't work, I will then try the jointenna. Thanks again for all the help.

Hi

New member here. I've been reading through this thread trying to figure what is the best antenna to use. Im considering an indoor antenna as i only live like 4 miles away from the stations. Zip is 60616. I read the radio shack or silver something is good. Anyone could help me with clearer info in which is the best indoor antenna, and what model it is. ThANKS A LOT

Originally posted by whosyourbaba
I read the radio shack or silver something is good. Anyone could help me with clearer info in which is the best indoor antenna, and what model it is. ThANKS A LOT

http://www.zenith.com/sub_prod/product_Display.asp?cat=49&id=131

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D624

Since there is one VHF station in the area now and a couple more switching to VHF in the next couple of years, you might want to go for a combo antenna such as http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=&product%5Fid=15%2D1880&hp=search

A UHF only antenna may work for VHF since the distance is so small though. A cheap rabbit ear + UHF loop could do the trick too.

Sregener-
The stations you're picking up with the XG91, how are they rated on AntennaWeb? Are they even rated?

Originally posted by j_buckingham80
The stations you're picking up with the XG91, how are they rated on AntennaWeb? Are they even rated?

violet - uhf KMWB 23 WB MINNEAPOLIS MN
violet - vhf WKBT 8 CBS LA CROSSE WI
violet - uhf WHWC 28 PBS MENOMONIE WI
violet - uhf WFTC 29 UPN MINNEAPOLIS MN
violet - uhf WEUX 48 FOX CHIPPEWA FALLS WI
violet - uhf KXLT 47 FOX ROCHESTER MN
violet - uhf KYIN 24 PBS MASON CITY IA
violet - uhf KSTC 45 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN
violet - uhf KSMQ 15 PBS AUSTIN MN
violet - vhf KTTC 10 NBC ROCHESTER MN
* violet - uhf KTTC-DT 10.1 NBC ROCHESTER MN

As you can see, Antennaweb (no buildings, multiple story structure) expects me to receive one digital station, and that's with the largest antenna and preamp available.

I had a Winegard HD-7084P on my roof (single story), with a 28db UHF preamp (Winegard AP-8780) before my current tower, and I got KSMQ, KTTC and KXLT digitally 24x7. Obviously, they still come in with the 54' tower and the 91XG.

Thanks for the info. I'll have to give the antenna a long look, if i decide to attempt some violet S.F. channels.

I am moving to Edgewater, MD (Just West of Annapolis) in a couple of weeks and am wondering if anyone in the Annapolis/Edgewater area is getting DC channels OTA, and if so, what info they could provide regarding their setup regarding the type of antenna they are using, the type of mount, etc.

I am moving into a community with a HOA, and while I know they are not within their rights to do so, their rules place restrictions on antennas, etc. I will already be installing a Direct TV dish, and I'd rather not throw a huge antenna on the roof as well (and thus piss off the neighbors before I even get to know them!) so I am hoping I can get away with an attic install . . .

Any Annapolis/Edgewater/Davidsonville people here who can give me some OTA tips?

Thanks in advance!

That area would appear to be covered by the D.C./Baltimore thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5288144#post5288144

Thanks, Pat. I posted this information on that board as well. Hopefully I will get a response soon!

How are the Terk HDTV-S antennas? Was thinking of getting one and mounting it on the roof.

Sorry. Terk has a reputation for being overpriced and/or underperforming.

Can you reccomend a good antenna I can just mout up on my roof and hook directly to my TV? I have a Sharp LCD and there are about 10 HD digital channels in my area that I want to be able to pick up. Most are fairly close to each other based off antennaweb.

Originally posted by mikecoscia
Can you reccomend a good antenna I can just mout up on my roof and hook directly to my TV? I have a Sharp LCD and there are about 10 HD digital channels in my area that I want to be able to pick up. Most are fairly close to each other based off antennaweb.

This falls into the FAQ category. It's been answered a thousand times (slight hyperbole) in this thread before. One question that always needs to be asked is how far you are from the towers. The further away, the larger the antenna you'll need.

Channel Master, Winegard and AntennasDirect all have good antenna designs in antennas. CM4221, CM4228, Winegard PR4400, PR8800, PR9032, and AntennasDirect DB4, DB8 and 43XG and 91XG are all great choices for most situations. (These are all UHF antennas, and will do an okay job on channels 7-13, and a very poor job on channels 2-6.)

I don't know about Sharp, but most LCD sets do not have digital tuners included, and are listed as "HD Ready." If that's the case, you'll need an external tuner, also called a STB.

Mike, depending on which Sharp LCD you have ( "D" series have integrated ATSC/CableCard Tuners, newer 37GBU has ATSC only) you can use an antenna and simply select appropriate channel scan setup for digtial channels under the channel setup menu. I have a LC 32GD6U Model and I use a Channel Master 3020 antenna currently and I am able to pickup from my location ( Jesup, Ga.) the cbs affiliate in Savannah, Ga. station some 45 miles away at a signal level of 92. Unfortunately ( and this is after moving here from Va. Beach, Va., where we had Cbs, ABC, NBC, FOX, PBS, UPN, WB, &PAX all operating Digital Stations and all I needed was a radio Shack Bowtie on the back deck!) here there is only one Digital Station in Savannah operating at any decent transmission strength and Jacksonville, Florida is at the extreme fringe at 90 miles away!
My advise is get a decent antenna, use good cabling and sit back and enjoy!
Dave

Yah I have a the sharp 37D7U the new ones that just came out, it has the tuner built in. My zip is 07508, I am 20 miles from NYC so I can get all there channels. So do I really need a large antenna or can I get something simple? That is why I was looking at the Terk and mounting it up in the attic or roof. Would a indoor powered anntenna even work? Also any need for a preamp or any other hardware just besides the antenna? I want to pick one up this weekend, dying to see some HD!!

Originally posted by mikecoscia
Yah I have a the sharp 37D7U the new ones that just came out, it has the tuner built in. My zip is 07508, I am 20 miles from NYC so I can get all there channels. So do I really need a large antenna or can I get something simple? That is why I was looking at the Terk and mounting it up in the attic or roof. Would a indoor powered anntenna even work? Also any need for a preamp or any other hardware just besides the antenna? I want to pick one up this weekend, dying to see some HD!!
Mike,

You might want to look around for a Channel Master 3016 (sometimes called a 5646) antenna as it covers both the VHF & UHF channels. Mount it outside on the roof. If you mount it in the attic you may need a Channel Master CM7777 preamp to make up the signal loss due to the attic. Always try it 1st without an amp because too much signal can be as bad as too little signal for TV reception.

Bob C

I havent been able to verify this, but will a diplexer work to insert the UHF signal into a cable run from my cable company? I plan to install an antenna in my attic of my 2 story house. I am only about 16 miles from the towers so signal should be pretty good. I dont think I can get a new cable run from my attic to a downstairs room so I wanted to try the diplexer into the existing cable run.

thanks for any help

Originally posted by curban
I havent been able to verify this, but will a diplexer work to insert the UHF signal into a cable run from my cable company?

No. A Diplexer combines two signals that are on different frequencies. Cable uses the same frequencies as broadcast UHF.

You could look into an A/B switch, such as the remote-controlled one from Radio Shack, to switch between the two signals.

thanks, i was worried about that, guess if i cant drop another line then i will try the switch, didnt even consider that option. I really need to drop another line because i need to drop an ethernet line for my replaytv anyway

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/NewTowerAntennas/
Looks like MAX HD has been at it again. I'm sure he'll chime in on how that diamond quad is working out for him. :)

Originally posted by Rack
http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/NewTowerAntennas/
Looks like MAX HD has been at it again. I'm sure he'll chime in on how that diamond quad is working out for him. :)

Quite nicely thank you very much.Need a good band opening to see what It'll really do.And maybe some more tweaks.Things are pretty deadband now with this cold front that moved in.Although,I do see a boxing match currently on 44 up your way:-)

Originally posted by MAX HD
Quite nicely thank you very much.Need a good band opening to see what It'll really do.And maybe some more tweaks.Things are pretty deadband now with this cold front that moved in.Although,I do see a boxing match currently on 44 up your way:-)
Yep, that sounds like the repurposed Contender on Telemundo. Good thing NBCUniversal owns all those networks. :)

Originally posted by quarque
Yes, you can overload your receiver. The general consensus is that amplifiers are not usually helpful below 30 miles. But being in an attic is a different situation and might benefit from an amplifier. So the question is why did you need to "improve things"? Were you getting audio and/or video dropouts etc? If not, there would be no reason to add anything to your basic antenna. The attenuator is in effect, lowering your amplifier gain. Changing to a lower gain (and lower noise) amplifier might be the best solution if you *really* do need an amplifier. How long is your cable run?

Sorry, I have been away from this forum for a number of days, but I am back at this today. I returned the amplifier I bought. As a recap I am 20 miles from the transmitter and I have the CM 4228 8-bay multi-bow antenna in the attic. I am now starting to think that the DISH 811 receivers are sort of finicky. Anyway, I suspec that I may be suffering from some multi path distortion. It seems as if no matter how I adjust the antenna, I always seem to get one channel that will drop out. I told my wife tonight that as I see it I have basically three choices:

-Do nothing and always have one channel that has to be viewed analog.

-Move the antenna out of the attic and onto the roof

-Try moving the antenna inside the attic.

The attic where this antenna is located is above my attached two car garage. It is not a big problem to get up there because I have one of those folding drop down stair-ladders. Anyway, do you guys think that it might be worth my while to try moving the antenna mount either to the right or left a foot or two of where it is now or am I wasting my time? I think the 2 x 4 are spaces 16" apart so I could even move it closer to the wall or further away. Or shouold I be looking at some other solution? Again, I think that I have sufficient signal because a Wal-Mart DTV receiver connected to the same antenna has very good signal and does not drop out. And that is what has led me to believe that the DISH 811 is a more touchy digital receiver on OTA broadcast.

Jim,
You never know till you try. I know if I move mine up or down 6 inches I'll loose a channel and gain others. Yes they may be a sweet spot where you can get them all. It took me about 4 hours to find the right spot but now I have rock solid signals. Remeber the 4228 is highly directional so adjusting a few degrees either way will make a big difference. Moving outside will probably be the better choice and will gain signal strength an all stations. Good Luck.

In general, for better OTA reception:
Outside
Higher
Bigger

Having said that, if you are close with the antenna in the attic, try moving it to different locations, you may well find one that does the trick.

Originally posted by Jim1348
I am now starting to think that the DISH 811 receivers are sort of finicky.

They definitely are. If you haven't tried one yet, a variable attenuator from Radio Shack can help with multipath issues.

I've been playing around again trying to increase performance on high band vhf (7-13). I've been through various full band vhf as well as combo antennas, a single Antennacraft Y10 7-13 as well as the Funke psp 1922 (7-13) which I purchased from MaxHD. Other than bigger and better in general my goal has been a digital channel 13 75 miles away (WKYT 13 Lexington, KY). I have really had little success up to now.

I've had a UHF Band A stack (14-37 or thereabouts) for some time now. It occurred to me that I could suspend a high band stack (or anything else for that matter) beneath it. I ended up using 1 inch aluminum tubing from Lowe's and used CM roof/attic mounts to make the 90 degree attachment.

Up to now, the best performance I've had for high band has been the psp 1922 mentioned above. It's the best single antenna for high band that I know of. The y10 7-13 is close to it though and stacking in the horizontal plane narrows horizontal beamwidth as well as increasing gain. For me two stacked y10 7-13's has perfomed better overall, likely due to the increased directivity. I have one analog 13 at 146 degrees, one analog 13 at 278 degrees, as well as the digital 13 which was my goal at 352 degrees.

Results are that now I can at least watch WKYT 13 some of the time depending on weather conditions. I could only rarely even lock on it with the psp 1922. There are times (like today) when conditions are totally so-called "dead band" in which I can't get a lock, but I can almost always at least lock on it after sunset now. My high band overall (analogs, other digitals) seems to be slightly better overall as well (compared to the single psp 1922).

Funke makes a combo uhf/high band antenna that if I could get I'd like to do a quad with next. Don't know if that will ever happen, though. Ideally, it'd be a combo high band/band K (14-51) IMO but I've not seen one of those yet.

If anyone out there wants to do this a rotator is crucial, both to aim and also to turn the rig downwind during a storm. We had about a 60 mph blow the other night and mine survived (forgot and left it broad-sided) but the wind rotated the entire thing including the mast about 25 degrees.

I'm going to post this in the hardware section as well so if you don't want to re-read this just ignore it.

Charles

I'm new so please excuse me if this has been asked.

Can i use my Directv or Dish satellites as antennas. If so, how is this possible.

I am thinking of purchasing the Sony KDF-55 WF655/XS955 with a built in tuner.

I would like to take advantage of the OTA HD channels

No. Try antennaweb.org to find your local stations and see what color code set an antenna would need to be able to handle and how far away your stations are. Include your zip code in your location. See the info under my picture for a sample.

i remember outside antennas being a big hassle to install. Granted, this was the early 70's, but keep in mind, ....I'm not what one would call "handy".

Is it possible for me to install an outside OTA? If I get a CM from Lowes. will they install it for me? Is there anyone else who should come to mind?

Thanks!!

Question about antenna's. I solely want to pick up the HDTV channels that are offered in my area. According to Antennaweb the closest tower is 11.4 miles, and furthest is 12.4. I do not have any major obstructions, and I am at the end of a street, so I don't have a house right next to me.

I would really like to stick with something indoor if possible. So far I see a lot of mention of the "Silver Sensor" from zenith. I also found a Terk TV5 that got good reviews on CC.com I have read though that AVS is not fond of Terk. Any suggestions?

Originally posted by ritterd
Question about antenna's. I solely want to pick up the HDTV channels that are offered in my area. According to Antennaweb the closest tower is 11.4 miles, and furthest is 12.4. I do not have any major obstructions, and I am at the end of a street, so I don't have a house right next to me.

I would really like to stick with something indoor if possible. So far I see a lot of mention of the "Silver Sensor" from zenith. I also found a Terk TV5 that got good reviews on CC.com I have read though that AVS is not fond of Terk. Any suggestions?


For indoor antennas, look here: http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&Page=1

The first one is the best indoor RS has and includes VHF capability which you don't really need in Philly for DT. The second one is a silver sensor equivalent which would be fine as well. The dual bowtie for 14.99 would also probably work for you. If you don't get adequate indoor reception try a CM 4221 in your attic. Good luck.

Originally posted by Tornillo
i remember outside antennas being a big hassle to install. Granted, this was the early 70's, but keep in mind, ....I'm not what one would call "handy".

Is it possible for me to install an outside OTA? If I get a CM from Lowes. will they install it for me? Is there anyone else who should come to mind?

Thanks!!

It's not very hard, really. If you have the time, you can do just as good or better yourself as opposed to hiring it out. Lowe's won't install AFAIK, so if you're not up to it you'll have to contact someone locally. Try local appliance/TV stores or ask around at local hardware stores.

I don't know where you are in Texas (which will determine the type/size antenna and installation) but in general a ground mount strapped to your house is one of the least difficult and strongest installations.

Originally posted by ritterd
According to Antennaweb the closest tower is 11.4 miles, and furthest is 12.4. I do not have any major obstructions, and I am at the end of a street, so I don't have a house right next to me.

Assuming all your digital stations are UHF, get a Silver Sensor and be done with it. You'll spend too much money on a Terk, and you won't get nearly the bang for the buck that you will with other brands.

Originally posted by Tornillo
i remember outside antennas being a big hassle to install. Granted, this was the early 70's, but keep in mind, ....I'm not what one would call "handy".

I've done a couple of installs, and I'm far from handy. I'd recommend getting a professional installer if you have any doubts about your abilities. Knowing that holes in the roof are properly sealed, knowing that everything has been done to make sure the whole thing won't blow over, and knowing that you're getting the best reception possible at your location can easily justify the couple hundred dollars you'll pay to have the job done right.

Nothing has happened in the last 30 years to make installing an antenna easier.

Nothing has happened in the last 30 years to make installing an antenna easier.

Well, kind of, the significantly less utilization (or almost complete non-utilization for DTV) of the low-VHF spectrum has made some improvement I'd say...UHF antennas being generally smaller/easier to install.

What has happened in the last 30 years is that you're 30 years older!

Spend some bucks and stay out of the hospital!

You then also have someone to blame when there's a problem!

Gary

how much difference does it make dropping from a 4.5db power/preamp to either a 2.0 or 2.8db? i.e. channel master or winegard unit? i'm from the old school as far as amps/lnb ( as in C band satellite ) i know that dropping from 60 to 50 degree lnb wasn't worth the price but from 60 to 25 was.
4.5db signal to noise ratio

Originally posted by dapack5
how much difference does it make dropping from a 4.5db power/preamp to either a 2.0 or 2.8db? i.e. channel master or winegard unit? i'm from the old school as far as amps/lnb ( as in C band satellite ) i know that dropping from 60 to 50 degree lnb wasn't worth the price but from 60 to 25 was.
4.5db signal to noise ratio

It will improve your signal but whether it will make any difference in your reception will depend on your situation and likely only trying will tell. What is your goal?

Originally posted by dapack5
how much difference does it make dropping from a 4.5db power/preamp to either a 2.0 or 2.8db?

If you're having reception problems, this is a great place to start. Digital reception is much more touchy with noise than analog, and you might find that it will solve minor problems for you. If you're having major problems or no problems at all, you shouldn't switch out the preamp.

To drop from 4.5 to 2.0 would be a decrease of almost half the noise your preamp is putting out.

Originally posted by cpcat
It will improve your signal but whether it will make any difference in your reception will depend on your situation and likely only trying will tell. What is your goal?

i have been reading about how the cm-7777 is more superior than the radioshack model i have,and i also hear about the wingard that's 2.8 UHF and 2.9 VHF db,i'm looking to clean up my signal,and try to eliminate some of the cross interference of some channels. ( example ) channel 30 causes interference on 29 almost like the fine tuning is off on the old block tuner type televisions. layman's terms i guess would be 2 channels trying to come in on 1! without the preamp/poweramp channels are not real good.
appraoximately 19 miles form one tower and 26 miles from another and in different directions too,with the poweramp i can receive all my locals except the 2 i' mentioned above,without it,it's like pulling hens' teeth
and no HD at all. i recently tried the 4228 antenna to compare it with mine and there was no difference. antenna 30ft in the air and i'm tired of trying different antennas,so,i thought that maybe the 7777 or winegard unit may be better for me.

no towers,trees,or obstructions close to antenna or in direction of TV towers

Originally posted by dapack5
i have been reading about how the cm-7777 is more superior than the radioshack model i have,and i also hear about the wingard that's 2.8 UHF and 2.9 VHF db,i'm looking to clean up my signal,and try to eliminate some of the cross interference of some channels. ( example ) channel 30 causes interference on 29 almost like the fine tuning is off on the old block tuner type televisions. layman's terms i guess would be 2 channels trying to come in on 1! without the preamp/poweramp channels are not real good.
appraoximately 19 miles form one tower and 26 miles from another and in different directions too,with the poweramp i can receive all my locals except the 2 i' mentioned above,without it,it's like pulling hens' teeth
and no HD at all. i recently tried the 4228 antenna to compare it with mine and there was no difference. antenna 30ft in the air and i'm tired of trying different antennas,so,i thought that maybe the 7777 or winegard unit may be better for me.

no towers,trees,or obstructions close to antenna or in direction of TV towers

This is called adjacent channel interference and you won't cure it with a preamp. There are two things you can consider that I'm aware of. Neither are easy. You have to attenuate or null the offending channel somehow. An adjustable notch filter is one option (Winegard-cheaper, Blonger Tongue-more expensive). They can be tricky to adjust. You might do the same thing with the CM Jointenna product (use the filter part only, and for the offending channel). You'll likely have to work at this some.

The other option is to horizontally stack two antennas and space them so the offending channel is nulled when you are pointing at the channel you want. See http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint1.html and http://www.kyes.com/antenna/sca/scaint2.html For adjacent channel interference (as opposed to co-channel interference), use the frequency of the offending channel when making the calculation.

Of the two methods, the filter works better in my experience.

Originally posted by cpcat
This is called adjacent channel interference and you won't cure it with a preamp.

It can be caused or worsened by a preamp, though.

Something has to be seriously wrong if you need a preamp with line-of-sight at 25 miles, especially with a CM4228. Either you've aimed it wrong, or you're using bad cable, a bad balun, or bad splitters.

I am pretty close to NYC (zip 07014) and I was wondering if I could get away with an outdoor antenna from Radioshack (something like this (http://www.radioshack.com/search.asp?find=rg6&site=search&image1.x=0&image1.y=0&image1=submit&SRC=1)
What would buying a winegard or a channel master offer me compared to the Radioshack? (I was thinking about the winegard 7082 for uhf/vhf or 9095 just for UHF ,or a similar CM, or a 91xG)

Originally posted by cliftonite
I am pretty close to NYC (zip 07014) and I was wondering if I could get away with an outdoor antenna from Radioshack (something like this (http://www.radioshack.com/search.asp?find=rg6&site=search&image1.x=0&image1.y=0&image1=submit&SRC=1)
What would buying a winegard or a channel master offer me compared to the Radioshack? (I was thinking about the winegard 7082 for uhf/vhf or 9095 just for UHF ,or a similar CM, or a 91xG)
Since RS is convenient and has easy returns, go ahead. You've nothing to lose and at your distance there are many antennas that would work. Every install is different and there is no guarantee that any particular antenna will work better than another. AVS members prefer certain antennas because statistically they perform better than others, all else being equal. But you are so close it may not matter what you use.

P.S. your link took me to a page on RG6 cable (?) but a popular RS antenna is the 15-2160 small yagi. If you need to pick up any low VHF channels you should consider a combo UHF/VHF unit.

Originally posted by cliftonite
What would buying a winegard or a channel master offer me compared to the Radioshack?

Better build quality. For similar sized antennas, there really isn't much difference in gain between the three companies. However, the Radio Shack will degrade in the elements faster (rust) and may suffer breakage on lo-VHF dipoles if large birds land on them.

I generally only recommend Radio Shack antennas for attic/indoor installs.

At 10 miles, just about any antenna is going to work. I'd lean heavily towards the Channel Master 4221 (4-bay bowtie) as it seems to offer the best bang for the buck.

Originally posted by cliftonite
I am pretty close to NYC (zip 07014) and I was wondering if I could get away with an outdoor antenna from Radioshack (something like this (http://www.radioshack.com/search.asp?find=rg6&site=search&image1.x=0&image1.y=0&image1=submit&SRC=1)
What would buying a winegard or a channel master offer me compared to the Radioshack? (I was thinking about the winegard 7082 for uhf/vhf or 9095 just for UHF ,or a similar CM, or a 91xG)
cliftonite,

Sregner is giving you some very good advice about the CM4221. The only thing I have to add is that some of your stations may opt to going back to VHF after the cutover. You might want to look at a CM3016, or a CM5646, or a Winegard HD7210 antenna for your roof in case they do. Also, I think that some are still broadcasting from Alpine, NJ site. so you may need to contemplate as rotor as well.

You could call the stations you watch and ask them about where they are broadcasting from and what channel they have filed for, post-cutover before you proceed.

Bob Chase

Originally posted by bobchase
The only thing I have to add is that some of your stations may opt to going back to VHF after the cutover.

Actually, NYC has two digital station on hi-VHF now. But any UHF antenna should be okay on hi-VHF at 10 miles. I get hi-VHF stations from 60 miles away with my AntennasDirect 91XG.

The only reason he'd need a VHF/UHF antenna would be for lo-VHF, and none have made their first-round elections for lo-VHF. I think the 4221 is a very safe choice.

I have a new Sony 34XS955, using old yagi on roof for OTA reception. Dreary weather today resulted in frequent HDTV signal black-outs on virtually all main local stations (Washington, DC, area). I'm new to the HDTV world and did not expect rain fade when I'm only 10 miles or so from the broadcast antennas, and I have a roof-top receiving antenna.

I have 300-ohm twin-lead from the antenna to inside the attic, where it converts to 75-ohm coax for the rest of the trip. Given that I'm so close to the transmission towers, I would have thought rabbit ears would have been good enough for reception! I'd appreciate any suggestions or insights.

Originally posted by Hassbk
I have a new Sony 34XS955, using old yagi on roof for OTA reception. Dreary weather today resulted in frequent HDTV signal black-outs on virtually all main local stations (Washington, DC, area). I'm new to the HDTV world and did not expect rain fade when I'm only 10 miles or so from the broadcast antennas, and I have a roof-top receiving antenna.

You shouldn't be having issues with rain, especially at that distance. I have issues with stations 75+ miles out during very heavy rain (severe thunderstorms) but otherwise am unaffected. I'd check your connections for rust and maybe strip the last inch or so of the 300-Ohm cable and reconnect it. Also check your grounding connection to make sure it isn't rusted out.

I'm not sure how to include the previous post in this reply (for reference), but this is in reply to "sregener" regarding signal loss during the rain and today during the sunshine.

This is all very confusing. The NTSC signals are coming in fine. I guess there is something going on that's affecting only the ATSC signals. Today, when Fox 5.1 was going in and out, it was very windy. So maybe there's some obstruction that affects the ATSC but not the NTSC. I checked the wiring on the roof this afternoon, and I didn't see any problems -- but who knows!

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions.

P.S.: Fox 45.1 out of Baltimore is more reliable than Fox 5.1 here in DC!

Hassbkf: Unshielded 300-ohm twinlead has very high loss when it gets wet.

Holl-ands, very interesting. You mean when the exterior of the insulation gets wet, it causes the run of the cable to be lossy? Or you mean if water actually gets "underneath" the insulation?

Regardless, I think the next step for me is to rip out the 300-ohm and put in RG-6. It's going to be a hassle, though, because the antenna is too high above the roof to be reachable, and all of the u-bolt parts holding it up there are rusted together. Anyway, thanks for your help.

I'm using a TERK TV-5(the hdtvi was worse). I'm going to try out the $50 Radio shack one as well. I can get the stations I'm interested in, but am experiecing channel loss(either completey or pixelation) Can you add more amplifying to an already amplified antannae? I'm interested in 57.1, 40.1, 22.1, and 3.1 Would all of these work on a UHF only antannae?

yellow - uhf WGBY 57 PBS SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.7 57
* yellow - uhf WGBY-DT 57.1 PBS SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.8 58
yellow - uhf WGGB 40 ABC SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.8 40
* yellow - uhf WGGB-DT 40.1 ABC SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.8 55
green - uhf WTIC 61 FOX HARTFORD CT 217° 36.4 61
green - uhf WWLP 22 NBC SPRINGFIELD MA 240° 10.3 22
* green - vhf WWLP-DT 22.1 NBC SPRINGFIELD MA 240° 10.3 11
* green - uhf WEDH-DT 45 PBS HARTFORD CT 217° 36.4 45
lt green - uhf WVIT 30 NBC NEW BRITAIN CT 217° 36.5 30
* lt green - uhf WTIC-DT 31.1 FOX HARTFORD CT 217° 36.4 31
lt green - uhf WDMR-LP 65 TEL HARTFORD CT 240° 10.3 65
lt green - uhf WEDH 24 PBS HARTFORD CT 218° 31.3 24
lt green - uhf WUVN 18 UNI HARTFORD CT 218° 31.1 18

Originally posted by Hassbk
I guess there is something going on that's affecting only the ATSC signals. Today, when Fox 5.1 was going in and out, it was very windy. So maybe there's some obstruction that affects the ATSC but not the NTSC.

Wind can cause your antenna to move, which creates a varying signal strength or even multipath. Many people report reception problems in windy conditions. Rain, no. Wind, yes. Especially with trees nearby.

Originally posted by nickw23
Can you add more amplifying to an already amplified antannae?

Yes, but you shouldn't. And at 5-10 miles, you shouldn't be using any amplification at all. It can only do bad things to your reception at that distance.

Once you've overcome tuner noise level and cable loss, more amplification won't help. Doubtless you're well over that already.

A good UHF antenna like the Radio Shack double-bowtie should work on most of the channels, but any indoor antenna is pushing things at 30 miles. If you want all the stations you listed, an outdoor antenna like the Channel Master 4221 is your best bet. You'll need a rotor to get all those stations, as they spread over quite a compass range. At 10 miles, any UHF antenna should get the hi-VHF digital signal.

Thanks for the quick reply!

So do you think I should return the Terk TV-5 and get the Radioshack Double bowtie UHF? With just UHF would I recieve the majority of the channels I'm intersted in?

With just UHF you might have a problem getting NBC 11, but I doubt it, as Sreg has pointed out, you're really quite close. Sreg, if he's looking to stick with something indoors, do you think the DB2 would work well for him? It'd probably be iffy on the 30 miles though (I got stations 30 miles out with a silver sensor, but I think that's uncommon). The DB2 would probably be better than the Radio Shack Double bow-tie.

Originally posted by nickw23
So do you think I should return the Terk TV-5 and get the Radioshack Double bowtie UHF? With just UHF would I recieve the majority of the channels I'm intersted in?

I'd return the TV-5. It's overpriced for how it performs, by a long shot.

With a good indoor UHF antenna, you should get these stations you listed:
yellow - uhf WGBY 57 PBS SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.7 57
* yellow - uhf WGBY-DT 57.1 PBS SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.8 58
yellow - uhf WGGB 40 ABC SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.8 40
* yellow - uhf WGGB-DT 40.1 ABC SPRINGFIELD MA 323° 5.8 55
green - uhf WWLP 22 NBC SPRINGFIELD MA 240° 10.3 22
* green - vhf WWLP-DT 22.1 NBC SPRINGFIELD MA 240° 10.3 11
lt green - uhf WDMR-LP 65 TEL HARTFORD CT 240° 10.3 65

The best indoor UHF antenna is either the AntennasDirect DB2 or the Zenith Silver Sensor. Either would be great. The Radio Shack Twin Bowtie is a very good alternative, though. You can compare gain charts here:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/glossaryG.html#indoor

The DB2 performs better, but doesn't look as good. And it probably isn't worth twice the price for 10 miles.

Hassbk: Dirty water on the exterior of unshielded twinlead effectively "shorts" out the signal....hence high loss when wet.

Ancient twinlead also deterioriates, cracks and lets in moisture.

Unshielded twinlead also contributes to multipath, since it acts as a huge auxilliary antenna structure.

Holl-ands: well, I guess that could explain it -- especially since I'm so close to the broadcast towers (~10 miles). It's interesting that the analog NTSC signals don't show any significant degradation, but I suspect the multipath interference as the wet twin-lead blows around in the wind would affect the DTV signal much more. Thanks for your help.

Does anyone know where I can buy the Radioshack Double bowtie UHF antenna? Radio Shack is out of stock (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-624)

Nothing turns up on eBay either...

I've read through quite a bit of this thread and from what I've learned, it appears that I can probably get by with an indoor or bow-tie. I'd appreciate some guidance because of some variables that I think will impact my situation. I'm in Western NC and the terrain is pretty hilly. We are near the crest of a large hill with a multi-story house. My receiver and viewing area are in the walk out basement and the area is wooded with tall trees. Below is the information from antennaweb:

yellow - uhf WLOS-DT 13.1 ABC ASHEVILLE NC 302° 11.4 56
* yellow - uhf WUNF-DT 33.1 PBS ASHEVILLE NC 302° 11.4 25
* yellow - uhf WHNS-DT 21.1 FOX ASHEVILLE NC 213° 13.0 57
* yellow - uhf WASV-DT 62.1 UPN ASHVILLE NC 176° 8.9 45
* violet - uhf WYFF-DT 4.1 NBC GREENVILLE SC 191° 16.6 59

I realize it is trial and error, any recommendations of where to start?

Thank you,

Steve

Originally posted by sdeweese
I realize it is trial and error, any recommendations of where to start?


If you want to try an indoor antenna, the Zenith Silver Sensor is the place to start.

What would be the best way to check signal strength? I have the antenna going straight into the TV (Mits 65813). I am getting great, uninterrupted PQ. I would like to check out of interest.

Thanks.

Originally posted by CountryJoe
What would be the best way to check signal strength? I have the antenna going straight into the TV (Mits 65813). I am getting great, uninterrupted PQ. I would like to check out of interest.

Thanks.

I assume you set doesn't have a built in meter. If you are getting good DTV without drops then I wouldn't worry about it. You can get a field strength meter but they are expensive. The meters built in from different manfacturers are all different. Some read RF, some S/N, some bit errors and some use combination of these. This is why you'll see some with reading as low as 30 but still get great DTV while others need 80 or more for good PQ. I now have Dish 942 and they read bit errors and RF combo I believe. Signal below 60 will have break ups and may be unwatchable. Using their method of reception here's a good estimate of what you are probably doing.

If you have a straight line of sight to transmitters then you probably in the high 80's to 90's. within 30 to 40 miles with a resonably good outdoor antenna no line of sight high 70's low 80's. Beyond 40 and up to 100 with a good antenna mid 60's to mid 70's. Needless to say these can vary widely with your terrain but will give you an idea with no real terrain problems. I do get a few around 80 miles in the high 80's low 90's but they are extremely high and mostly down hill to my location.

Silver Sensor may be better indoor antenna.

However, you can get also get the almost as good indoor C-M 2-Bay Dipole:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmant.htm

Which is considerably less than the outdoor DB2 from www.antennasdirect.com

Am I in a OTA black hole?

Using a Silver Sensor with a Samsung SIR-T351 from my apartment on the 3rd (top floor). I am 8-9 miles away from all towers that I wish to receive. My zip is 22180.

Yet...I can just get one channels reliably (and that is only 1 mile away from me!). I live in the DC area and can see the Beltway from my apartment balcony.

What gives? I've seen people getting channels 40 miles away with the Silver Sensor, and I can't get one? Is there some setting in my tuner that I am missing? Are the trees outside my balcony (there are quite a few) blocking the signals?

Originally posted by batch
What gives? I've seen people getting channels 40 miles away with the Silver Sensor, and I can't get one? Is there some setting in my tuner that I am missing? Are the trees outside my balcony (there are quite a few) blocking the signals?

Could be, or your apartment could be facing away from the towers. If you're pointing the wrong way, it's going to be hard to get good digital reception with current technology. New receivers that are better are coming, but they aren't here yet.

Thanks, Jimc705.

I was just interested to see, if there was an easy and cheap way. The pic is great so I am not concerned. No drops, no breakup. I am about 37 miles from ESB and using xg91 from AntennasDirect. I highly recommend them.

Originally posted by batch
Am I in a OTA black hole?

What gives? I've seen people getting channels 40 miles away with the Silver Sensor, and I can't get one? Is there some setting in my tuner that I am missing? Are the trees outside my balcony (there are quite a few) blocking the signals?

Sorry to hear that batch. I'm one of those lucky ones at about 32 miles.

Fortunately, my Silver Sensor is on top of our EC, and literally three inches from the houses east facing outside wall. That and I'm on a hill.

Originally posted by batch
Am I in a OTA black hole?

Using a Silver Sensor with a Samsung SIR-T351 from my apartment on the 3rd (top floor). I am 8-9 miles away from all towers that I wish to receive. My zip is 22180.

Yet...I can just get one channels reliably (and that is only 1 mile away from me!). I live in the DC area and can see the Beltway from my apartment balcony.

What gives? I've seen people getting channels 40 miles away with the Silver Sensor, and I can't get one? Is there some setting in my tuner that I am missing? Are the trees outside my balcony (there are quite a few) blocking the signals?
You might be suffering from signal overload or severe multipath. Try an inline attenutator from Radio Shack (< $10) right at the back of your Sammy.

Batch, have you tried the cheap $3.99 UHF bowtie from Rat Shack? These clip on to VHF rod element inside... I am in a red zone per antennaweb.org, looking through a train across the street (50 ft away) and an overpass over RR tracks. With a train there, and many cars on the overpass, all but 2 of my locals lock easily. With train gone, 1 more local comes in. all are 26-27 miles out.

Oh yeah, forgot this - It is mounted about 1 ft. above Dish Network sat dish, about 2-3 ft above roofline of 1 story house.

thanks for all the replies....i think i got the patience mustered up again for one last try :-)

quarque - which of these would work the best:

http://www.radioshack.com/search.asp?find=inline+attenuator&site=search&image1.x=0&image1.y=0&image1=submit&SRC=1

(i guess i could try them all and return them if they don't work)

and, jjnemoiii, is this what you were talking about:

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=15-624

thanks again!

Batch, sorry, no, thats not it. I cant post link yet. @ Rat shack website, on the left, mouse over TV,Sat,Video, then click on Antenna at top of sub menu. On the next screen, click on indoor. Then go to second page, there it is. Cost is $3.99, Rat Shack# 15-234. Also need Matching transformer, 300 ohm to 75 ohm. this is $3.99 as well, Rat Shack# 15-1253.

Originally posted by batch
thanks for all the replies....i think i got the patience mustered up again for one last try :-)

quarque - which of these would work the best:

http://www.radioshack.com/search.asp?find=inline+attenuator&site=search&image1.x=0&image1.y=0&image1=submit&SRC=1
. . .

None of those. You want the variable one: # 15-678 for $9.99
So you can vary the amount of attenuation.

Batch, I'll be very interested in your results. I live in a single-family home in zip 22182, and I've been having great difficulty in locking in all of the OTA stations. I have an antenna on the roof, and my problem is that I lose Fox 5 when it's windy (like it was this weekend). Earlier, I received suggestions from this forum to replace the 300-ohm twin lead with coax. I did that, with no improvement (or maybe mild improvement; I don't yet know if this solution works better in the rain). I'm on the other side of a hill from Tyson's Corner (which itself is on a hill), so I think I'm just SOL. I may have to (gulp) go back to Cox Cable.

Hey, Hassbk...I'll defn post with my results, but I am 99% sure nothing will change.

And even if I miraculously get the channels, I doubt they will come in all the time and not be subject to weather, next door neighbor moving around, me moving around, etc. Not to mention having get up and move the antenna sometimes to pickup another channel.

I hate to admit it, but right now, Cox gives the most hassle free HDTV for me. Hopefully, when Verizon FIOS and Dish/D* get HDTV locals, we will have some competition.

If I just want free OTA HD channels to come in on my HD TV-all I need is to get a HD Attenna from Radio shack (for ex.) and hook that directly to back of my HD tv correct? I dont need a set top box/reciever also?

thanks for any info

Originally posted by nrj0122
If I just want free OTA HD channels to come in on my HD TV-all I need is to get a HD Attenna from Radio shack (for ex.) and hook that directly to back of my HD tv correct? I dont need a set top box/reciever also?

thanks for any info

Does your HDTV have a built-in tuner? If so, an antenna is all you'd need.


Threads merged.

Originally posted by nrj0122
If I just want free OTA HD channels to come in on my HD TV-all I need is to get a HD Attenna from Radio shack (for ex.) and hook that directly to back of my HD tv correct? I dont need a set top box/reciever also?

thanks for any info

If your set has an ATSC tuner built in and you're close enough to receive OTA then yes you'll just need a good antenna. Probably not a Rat Shack though.

Hello! First post for me as I delve into trying to get a decent DTV signal on my 65" Mitsubishi.
Basically it has a built in HDTV tuner and I started off trying to pickup stations on my rabbit ears with mixed results.
So on a friends recommendation I bought a 'Silver Sensor' type. That worked OK, but we still had a lot of drop outs.

So now I am going to get a Channel Master 4228 and try and end drop outs all together. I am only 13 miles from my tower and on flat land (NW Ohio for gods sake) but there are a lot of big trees near me.

My question here is can I mount the 4228 to a TV antenna tower?
We already have a huge tower (pyramid style tubing up 40 ft or so) with a very old and crappy yagi style antenna on top.
It also does not feel very safe to go to high on said tower since it isn't anchored to the house all the well.

So what I want to do is install the CM4228 as high up on the tower as possible and point it towards the tower.

Will this work? Am I wasting my time? I rent the house so I am a bit hesitant to put holes in the roof installing a mast and there is no chimney.

Just hoping for some help :D

Threads merged.

Welcome to the forum AcidBath.

AcidBath - a 4228 is a bit overkill for 13 miles. You should have enough signal at that distance to use a paper clip - don't laugh, I tried it and it worked on my receiver. Your problem may be severe multipath (reflections) or just too much signal. The reflections are out of phase with the main signal and most receivers have a tough time dealing with them. If you have already gotten the 4228 then you can put it just about anywhere, but you should also install an inline attenuator (Radio Shack 15-678 or similar). You will have way too much signal. On the other hand the 4228 is fairly directional and may help with the reflections (it also has a backside screen to prevent reflections from getting through from the back side). The SS may still be the best choice - you just need to experiment with location. Most often it is location that is the big variable, even as close as you are.

Hello Acidbath and Quarque,

Here's a brain dump which may or may not be correct, feel free to
tear my theories apart here.

People don't recommend 4228's for strong signal areas. I do in many cases, and here's why. If you have strong signals with strong multipath,
you'll need a very directional antenna. If you have a very directional antenna, you also get lots of gain. Having way too much high-quality signal is
infinitely better than having a multipathed or weak signal, since a $7
Radio Shack signal attenuator can fix that.

Case in point...a friend of mine lives 20 miles from Sears Tower in Chicago.
Can't go on the roof with his antenna, and a Radio Shack VU-160
(suburban to far suburban rated) VHF-UHF antenna was giving him
major breakup in his attic. He had ghosts like crazy. I stuck a
ChannelMaster 4221 (the half-size brother of the 4228) up there
and I also slapped on a ChannelMaster 7777 preamp on there, since
attics typically cause a signal drop of 20 dB, and he was going to split
the signal 3 ways. So a CM 7777 preamp and the good directionality
almost caused his ghosts to vanish, and it got him a strong signal
to boot. Note: If you put the 4228 outside, do NOT buy an amplifier.
You'll have plenty of gain. And, the good directionality of the antenna
will get rid of the ghosts (if you can, check your analog channels).

Also, I also suspect the channel breakup, in part, is due to channels
that are at low power. Many stations are still at what is known as
"Special Temporary Authority" power, meaning they are at low power.
As of July 1, the "Big 4" networks will be at full power in your market,
so hang in there. Trees will also cause signal fade, but a high-gain
antenna will help fix that at your range.

Next, a big antenna will offer more directionality, but design helps a
ton. I am a HUGE fan of the CM 4228 antenna (have one in my attic),
but the AntennasDirect XG-91 comes highly recommended and is
very close to the performance of the 4228. If you still have ghosts
after you put up the 4228, I'd go with the XG-91. That's a REAL
directional antenna, from what I have read here. In the northwest
suburbs of Chicago, that's what you need because the building
orientation in downtown Chicago causes substantial multipath problems
north and especially northwest of the city.

Finally, one more thought. For those who think this is all a big hassle...
when you get it done, it will be well worth it. The dish folks can't match
over-the-air broadcast quality, and at least in Chicago, all of the digital
stations and HD broadcasts are received over-the-air by a Comcast antenna. If you do your intallation well, if the cable TV company
reception is out, you are not, unless the transmitter has been
destroyed, or the master control room fiber cable has a problem.
And, as stations broadcast in HD, you will get them long before
your cable company carries them (up to a year or more). Our UPN
affiliate in Chicago has been HD for 8 months now, and it isn't on
Comcast yet. There are exceptions to getting them on cable quickly
for Super Bowl games, but Veronica Mars just doesn't produce the
same sense of urgency to carry it as the Super Bowl. I wonder why? ;-)

I see antenna placement priorities as:

1. Make sure the cable is very good and connectors are on tight
2. Get the antenna outside
3. Get it up as high as possible
4. Get a big antenna, preferably get separate VHF/UHF antennas
diplexed (joined together) into a single coax lead-in. Combos are
fine for use under 50 miles with high-powered stations. If you want
long distance reception, separate antennas on the same pole/tower
are strongly recommended.

Anyway, best of wishes, and stay safe. Let us know what happens
after you get it up and running. Quarque or anyone else... am I off base here?

Originally posted by AcidBath
Hello! First post for me as I delve into trying to get a decent DTV signal on my 65" Mitsubishi.
Basically it has a built in HDTV tuner and I started off trying to pickup stations on my rabbit ears with mixed results.
So on a friends recommendation I bought a 'Silver Sensor' type. That worked OK, but we still had a lot of drop outs.

So now I am going to get a Channel Master 4228 and try and end drop outs all together. I am only 13 miles from my tower and on flat land (NW Ohio for gods sake) but there are a lot of big trees near me.

My question here is can I mount the 4228 to a TV antenna tower?
We already have a huge tower (pyramid style tubing up 40 ft or so) with a very old and crappy yagi style antenna on top.
It also does not feel very safe to go to high on said tower since it isn't anchored to the house all the well.

So what I want to do is install the CM4228 as high up on the tower as possible and point it towards the tower.

Will this work? Am I wasting my time? I rent the house so I am a bit hesitant to put holes in the roof installing a mast and there is no chimney.

Just hoping for some help :D

It should be an improvement over what you have. As long as you're not using a preamp, you really can't have too much antenna. Multipath is likely your problem and the solution to that is narrower beamwidth. This means you need a bigger more directional antenna or you need to put up a horizontal stack. Using an attenuator will attenuate the multipath signals and allow the tuner to lock on easier and can also help if the 4228 doesn't solve it. Get the variable one from radio shack.

Go as high as you're comfortable going. The 4228 is fairly heavy and presents fairly high wind load but I'd imagine the tower can handle it at least half way up if it hasn't fallen yet. That one has to be ultimately up to you.

.

Originally posted by AcidBath
My question here is can I mount the 4228 to a TV antenna tower?
We already have a huge tower (pyramid style tubing up 40 ft or so) with a very old and crappy yagi style antenna on top.
It also does not feel very safe to go to high on said tower since it isn't anchored to the house all the well.

You shouldn't have any problems mounting it to the tower.

It is likely that your tower is planted in 3-4' of concrete. It isn't going anywhere. Anchoring it to the house is a bad idea. That said, you could probably go up 20' and be fine with the 4228.

Forget about the attenuator at this point. You cannot overload a receiver with signal unless you use a preamplifier, even with the best antenna on the market and living right in front of the towers.

Wow, thank you for all the tips! The 4228 is already ordered and I should have it next week. So I'll put it up on the tower and report back.
Thanks again, you folks really know your stuff :)

Originally posted by sebenste
Also, I also suspect the channel breakup, in part, is due to channels
that are at low power. Many stations are still at what is known as
"Special Temporary Authority" power, meaning they are at low power.
As of July 1, the "Big 4" networks will be at full power in your market,
so hang in there.

sebenste - that is all new to me and something I find very interesting. How did you find out my market (Toledo, OH) was going to full power? I Google'd a bit and checked my local TV station websites but cannot find any info.

Originally posted by AcidBath
sebenste - that is all new to me and something I find very interesting. How did you find out my market (Toledo, OH) was going to full power? I Google'd a bit and checked my local TV station websites but cannot find any info.

It's mandated by the FCC that digitals for FOX,ABC,NBC,CBS be at full power by July '05 in the top 100 DMA's. Toledo is # 69.
See http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/oh/tv_information.asp?m=tol
for useful info on the stations in your area. Click on "complete FCC data" for the analog station and it will take you to both the digital and analog's info.

Originally posted by sregener
...

You cannot overload a receiver with signal unless you use a preamplifier...
I'm not sure I agree with that. In our area we have had several people close to the towers that could not get squat. Heavy attenuation was the only thing that solved the problem. In most cases the UHF analog was very clean so it did not look like multipath was the problem AND they were using a 4221 or similar with a much wider beamwidth than a 4228. Other AVS members who install antennas have talked about overload as a very real phenomenon. Perhaps the newer receivers have a higher threshold than the older ones - I'm not sure.

sebenste - I agree with most everything you said. A 4228 with an attenuator is a definite possibility and used by many folks with great results. It would not be my first choice at 13 miles, but since he already ordered one it is too late to debate that decision. I would have started with an attenuator inline with the SS to see what effect that has.

acidbath - post your nearest intersection and which stations are giving you trouble.

Below is from antenna web:
* red - uhf WLOS-DT 13.1 ABC ASHEVILLE NC 302° 11.4 56
* red - uhf WUNF-DT 33.1 PBS ASHEVILLE NC 302° 11.4 25
* red - uhf WHNS-DT 21.1 FOX ASHEVILLE NC 213° 13.0 57
* red - uhf WASV-DT 62.1 UPN ASHVILLE NC 176° 8.9 45
* violet - uhf WYFF-DT 4.1 NBC GREENVILLE SC 191° 16.6 59
I decided to start with a CM3016 because I could get it locally and I needed help with FM reception on the stereo as well. I am trying the antenna in the attic which limits the ability to aim. I can receive UPN and CBS (which doesn't show up on the list) but they tend to drop out. I have not added an amplifier at this point. I need some guidance for what to try next. I am getting great FM reception now and would like to maintain that. Is there a different antenna recommendation that will give better results and help with FM? Should I try amplifying first before resulting to mounting the antenna on the roof? I'm willing to put it outside but would like that as the last result. Currently I am running into a splitter with one feed going to the HD receiver and the other the FM antenna connection on the stereo. Is this approach correct?

Thanks,

Steve

Originally posted by quarque
I'm not sure I agree with that. In our area we have had several people close to the towers that could not get squat. Heavy attenuation was the only thing that solved the problem. In most cases the UHF analog was very clean so it did not look like multipath was the problem AND they were using a 4221 or similar with a much wider beamwidth than a 4228. Other AVS members who install antennas have talked about overload as a very real phenomenon. Perhaps the newer receivers have a higher threshold than the older ones - I'm not sure.

Again, I'm not an engineer, but people who know how to do the math have claimed that it would take somewhere around 45-50db of gain in order to overload a receiver. You can, however, overload a preamplifier with much less - simply because they can boost a signal that is already very strong over the top.

Originally posted by sdeweese
Is there a different antenna recommendation that will give better results and help with FM? Should I try amplifying first before resulting to mounting the antenna on the roof? I'm willing to put it outside but would like that as the last result.

I don't think an amplifier will help in your situation - you're too close to the towers. Multipath is probably the issue. You also have a wide spread of stations, which means a rotor would be ideal. I'd try a variable attenuator from Radio Shack first (you can return it if it doesn't make a difference) followed by an amplifier if you have to exhaust all possibilities, but ultimately you're going to need to go on the roof with a rotor to get rock-solid reception of those stations spread over nearly 180 degrees.

Originally posted by sregener
...people who know how to do the math have claimed that it would take somewhere around 45-50db of gain in order to overload a receiver. You can, however, overload a preamplifier with much less - simply because they can boost a signal that is already very strong over the top.

I commonly develop analog UHF signals levels of 30dBmV or more and DTV signal levels of 10 to 15dBmV using Winegard HA-9065s and Channel Master 4 bay bowties that only have about 10dB of gain, at distances of maybe two to five miles from the transmitting towers.

The only published figures from tuner manufacturers that I have seen for the upper limit of their DTV tuners input windows were all below 0dBmV. It therefore would not surprise me if the signal level that one develops from a full powered UHF DTV transmitter using a rooftop antenna in an urban reception situation would exceed the maximum input capability of the tuner and result in malfunction without using a preamp.

Even at a distance of twenty miles, a high gain (Winegard 28dB, Channel Master 26dB) preamp connected to a medium gain, directional antenna would develop an output level that would exceed the manufacturer's recommended upper limit and possibly overload the tuner.

Is there nothing to gain by going to a less directional antenna or will that just make the multi-path worse? I do have a lot of trees and the terrain is pretty hilly but we are near the top of a hill. I'll try the attenuator tonight and see if that helps. I can also do a temporary install on the back upper deck with manual rotation and see what that yields.

Originally posted by sdeweese
Is there nothing to gain by going to a less directional antenna or will that just make the multi-path worse? I do have a lot of trees and the terrain is pretty hilly but we are near the top of a hill. I'll try the attenuator tonight and see if that helps. I can also do a temporary install on the back upper deck with manual rotation and see what that yields.
The only thing you gain with a less-directional antenna is the ability to pick up more towers that are spread over a wider area without having to use a rotor. But yes, it also means you pick up more reflected signals from the side. Variable attenuators are invaluable tools in solving the puzzle. For some they mean the difference between no HD (or lousy HD) and great HD. Since they also attenuate the reflected signals you may find a setting where the main signal is the only one recognized by the tuner. But when the reflected signals are nearly equal stength to the main signal you are in a sticky wicket (or similar phase for a difficult situation). There have been several people who gave up because they could not find the magic combination for their location. It takes lots of patience.

Originally posted by AntAltMike
I commonly develop analog UHF signals levels of 30dBmV or more and DTV signal levels of 10 to 15dBmV using Winegard HA-9065s and Channel Master 4 bay bowties that only have about 10dB of gain, at distances of maybe two to five miles from the transmitting towers.

The only published figures from tuner manufacturers that I have seen for the upper limit of their DTV tuners input windows were all below 0dBmV. It therefore would not surprise me if the signal level that one develops from a full powered UHF DTV transmitter using a rooftop antenna in an urban reception situation would exceed the maximum input capability of the tuner and result in malfunction without using a preamp.

Even at a distance of twenty miles, a high gain (Winegard 28dB, Channel Master 26dB) preamp connected to a medium gain, directional antenna would develop an output level that would exceed the manufacturer's recommended upper limit and possibly overload the tuner.
Mike - that seems to jive with what I've read and heard. Thanks for the detailed info.

I tried a temporary install outside on the back deck last night with little benefit. This location is about 10' lower than the attic location but gave me the ability to rotate the antenna for aim. I also added a variable attenuator into the run. I did manage to pick up an additional local (Fox) but never could get above a signal of 70 and had frequent drops. The best signal was achieved with the attenuator set at minimum. Strength would drop off if the attenuator was turned up.

I would much prefer to avoid going all the way to a rotor. Would there be any value going to a UHF antenna (4228?) and worrying about improving my FM reception with a separate antenna? All of my digitals are in the UHF band and fairly close.

Originally posted by sdeweese
I would much prefer to avoid going all the way to a rotor. Would there be any value going to a UHF antenna (4228?) and worrying about improving my FM reception with a separate antenna? All of my digitals are in the UHF band and fairly close.If it were me the HD nut I admit to being, I'd treat FM reception as a separate issue. So I'd run not walk, in this case, to the Warren website and order for about $100 a 4228, a CM rotor, and for about $40 possibly a CM 3044 dist amp for a straight shot from my attic and I'd forget about an attenuator or a preamp.

If it turned out due to some strange anomaly in this hilly terrain I couldn't get good digital reception, I'd sadly ship said items back to Warren for a refund, being out only S&H.

Wow. This all seems a bit overwhelming. Clearly I'm in the minority here, but I have no intention of putting an antenna on my roof or constructing a tower for one. In fact, I don't even want to get up in my attic. I guess I'm probably not going to get high definition programming for the time being because I just won't jump through these hoops to get local programming. If I can't use an indoor antenna, odds are I'll just wait until DirecTV gets local channels in HD.

And on that topic, I won't pay $300 for a HD box and I especially will not pay $1,000 for a HD TIVO box. And then they want $11 a month for 5 channels?? I think not.

Guess I'll be watching SD digital DirecTV until things get a little more reasonable.

for what it's worth, in Irvine CA, I'm getting about 78% signal strength (according to the dishnetwork HD811 receiver) for 4 of the local HD/DTV channels, and 65% from KOCE and KCET (i think) just from a cheap Radio Shack non-amp'ed indoor antenna that looks like a triangle with a round hole in the middle and two rabbit ears.
So try a cheap ratshack rabbit ear and see if you get something before giving up.

Originally posted by bhchan
for what it's worth, in Irvine CA, I'm getting about 78% signal strength (according to the dishnetwork HD811 receiver) for 4 of the local HD/DTV channels, and 65% from KOCE and KCET (i think) just from a cheap Radio Shack non-amp'ed indoor antenna that looks like a triangle with a round hole in the middle and two rabbit ears.
So try a cheap ratshack rabbit ear and see if you get something before giving up.

I appreciate the idea and I will probably give a few indoor antennas a try. I guess just reading this forum got me thinking I didn't stand a chance to bring any channels in, especially since I'm setting my plasma up in the basement. I am less than 15 miles from all the signals and 3 out of 5 are in yellow areas so I guess I'll give it a shot.

I'm still very disappointed in the lack of HD options though.

FWIW, according to antennaweb, i'm in green and light green areas for half of the DTV list available, and red for others, in my immediate area... plug in Irvine, CA and you can compare.

Originally posted by djomaha
If I can't use an indoor antenna, odds are I'll just wait until DirecTV gets local channels in HD.

If you can get a reasonably good picture on analog television using an indoor antenna (and this means things like a picture in color, with minimal or no ghosting) then you can expect to get a good digital picture as well. (Apples to apples comparison warning: don't compare analog VHF to digital UHF or vice versa. Compare UHF to UHF and VHF to VHF only, please.) To put it another way, if you can't make sense of the picture your antenna picks up on analog channels, why should a digital receiver be able to?

If you have a dish outside (which is kind of required for DirecTV) you can get the Winegard SquareShooter which really looks just about like a satellite dish, install it somewhere near your dish and you'll probably get great reception, since you're so close in.

Originally posted by djomaha
...
I am less than 15 miles from all the signals and 3 out of 5 are in yellow areas so I guess I'll give it a shot.
...

There are MANY people who are further than 15 miles and doing fine with an indoor antenna. Success indoors is tricky but if you have the patience you may be surprised. The first 3 rules are: location, location, location.

The Zenith Silver Sensor is a very good indoor antenna and is sold at various retailers like Sears. Radio Shack has a little bowtie affair that works for some. It should npt take much of an antenna unless you have a building or forest in the way.

Originally posted by quarque
There are MANY people who are further than 15 miles and doing fine with an indoor antenna. Success indoors is tricky but if you have the patience you may be surprised. The first 3 rules are: location, location, location.
Excellent point, I'm 35+ miles from the ESB and with the SS I get 4 out of the big 7. I'm not quite sure y I only get 4 when all big 7 broadcast from the ESB, but I suppose a real attic or outdoor antenna would probably grab it all. It's funny too bc the SS is only about 6' off the ground and on good days I get 70-80% on the 4 stations with 18-20dB. And that doesn't include a couple independent locals that broadcast here on LI. And one more thing watching 24 in HD is just jaw-dropping, especially when I realize I'm getting it in without any blips or dropouts with an antenna that looks as if it was made from molded plastic and recycled soda cans.

So is the Silver Sensor that much better than the other similar antennas? I noticed Terk and Samsung make antennas that look almost identical. It probably doesn't matter because the SS is as cheap or cheaper than both of them.

Here's my antennaweb info:

* red - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 44
* red - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 6° 8.9 50
* red - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 11° 8.8 34
* red - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 11° 8.8 16
* red - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 11° 8.8 26
* red - uhf KMWB-DT 23.1 WB MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 22
* red - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 35
* red - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 UPN MINNEAPOLIS MN 11° 8.8 21
* red - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 32

So I'm close but probably have lots of multipath issues. PBS, NBC, and CBS come in pretty solid. I've been tasked with recording the finale of 24 on FOX this Monday. Unfortunately, FOX breaks up every few seconds with the silver sensor, making it pretty much unwatchable/unrecordable.

Outdoors is probably not going to meet with household approval, but I could potentially get something into the attic, although I'm fairly clueless about running coax down to the appropriate areas. Something like the DB2 (http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html) would be ideal, since I could tolerate its size/shape indoors, but I expect it wouldn't be directional enough.

I'm more seriously considering the CM4221 or the Winegard PR4400, but I'm very open to suggestions.

I'm also wondering about positioning. I could fit a relatively flat antenna like the CM4221 into a nearby closet on the first floor, but I can't imagine that would be ideal for anything but aesthetics. The DB2 I could hang in front of a north-facing window (still indoors). Other than that, I'm left with the attic or an in-room position. Ideally, I'd like to replace all my current indoor antennas, but that would require a VHF/UHF solution.

Ideas?

but I could potentially get something into the attic, although I'm fairly clueless about running coax down to the appropriate areas.

if you already have a coax running from the attic to the location you want to go (ie, cable or satellite coax already snaked) and just need an extra coax, you might be able to do something along the following lines to snake an extra coax down:

approximate the length of cabling you'll need and get 2 RG6's of that length + 25% extra leeway.

go to the attic, open the wallplate, if any, disconnect the existing coax, ducttape one end of each of the two new cables to it. make sure the tape is firm. try to give it a little bit of taper so that it's like a little wedge that won't get caught on anything. secure the other ends of the new cables so you don't accidentally let it slip into the wall. :)

(another way is to connect one of the new coax to the old one using a female-female connector, and duct tape the second coax to it)

go down to the room, and slowly pull the existing coax out. The two new cables will follow along and hopefully at some point, emerge.

get one of those two-coax termination wall plates to make it look nice.

I wish there were even a scrap of coax running through this house. ;)

Unfortunately, its never been wired for cable, satellite, or OTA. The only thing running through the attic is power. There aren't even lights up there so I have a major girly-man moment every time I have to go in there. I'm thinking I could get something down into the basement from there and then back up into the rooms I want to wire...I'm just not quite sure how that would happen.

wish I could help, but i'm reaching the limits of my HGTV-based knowledge. ;) (I don't get DIYtv unfortunately)

you might be able to drop & fish cabling from the attic down at least one level but it'll depend on how your house was built.

mine two-story is from the 70's and with most of my ceiling cathedral-style, I basically have no attic to speak of, which meant that except for the master and 2nd bedroom, all other cable had to come through an outside wall. :(
(most homes in southern california lack a basement)


You might be able to push the cable out a vent from the attic, try to discretely hide it from the side of your house and run it down to your basement... and then from the basement, have access to your first floor walls. The second floor (if you have one), you might be able to drop wires from the attic already.

Three are those who grab a drill and just do it...
Then there are those who grab a pen and write a check....

I am wanting to move from New Orleans to Southern Mississippi. The main thing holding me back is my OTA HD reception that I must have. Per antennaorg the towers from the houses we are looking at are 50 miles away (violet colored). I already have a CM 4228 and it is rated up to 60 miles, but will it actually work from that distance? I am aware that the antenna will be put on the roof and the real estate person is aware of this also. My question is the CM 4228 the best antenna now as it was 3 years ago when I bought it? If not what are my other options? My wife really wants to get out of New Orleans and closer to the beaches of Mississippi.

Originally posted by rgathright
I am wanting to move from New Orleans to Southern Mississippi. The main thing holding me back is my OTA HD reception that I must have. Per antennaorg the towers from the houses we are looking at are 50 miles away (violet colored). I already have a CM 4228 and it is rated up to 60 miles, but will it actually work from that distance? I am aware that the antenna will be put on the roof and the real estate person is aware of this also. My question is the CM 4228 the best antenna now as it was 3 years ago when I bought it? If not what are my other options? My wife really wants to get out of New Orleans and closer to the beaches of Mississippi.

Not that much has changed in 3 years. Receivers have gotten better. At 50 miles, the 4228 should be o.k. assuming your stations are at full power. To get significantly better, you'd have to consider antenna stacking so I'd see what you get with the 4228 first if I were you. I'm assuming you will use a good preamp as well such as the CM 777x series.

Originally posted by holl_ands
Three are those who grab a drill and just do it...
Then there are those who grab a pen and write a check....

there are also those who order cable/satellite/whatever with free basic installation and tip the installer for a better install. :)

Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
Those who can't teach, teach gym class.
Those who can't teach gym class, install antennas.

Originally posted by cpcat
Not that much has changed in 3 years. Receivers have gotten better. At 50 miles, the 4228 should be o.k. assuming your stations are at full power. To get significantly better, you'd have to consider antenna stacking so I'd see what you get with the 4228 first if I were you. I'm assuming you will use a good preamp as well such as the CM 777x series.

Yep - I have the CM 7777 pre-amp.