Originally posted by AntAltMike
Those who can, do.
Those who can't, teach.
Those who can't teach, teach gym class.
Those who can't teach gym class, install antennas.
So if you can't install antennas you are a useless carbon-based lifeform?

Originally posted by Noah
Here's my antennaweb info:

* red - uhf KSTC-DT 45.1 IND MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 44
* red - uhf KSTP-DT 5.1 ABC ST. PAUL MN 6° 8.9 50
* red - uhf KTCA-DT 2.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 11° 8.8 34
* red - uhf KTCI-DT 17.1 PBS ST. PAUL MN 11° 8.8 16
* red - uhf KMSP-DT 9.1 FOX MINNEAPOLIS MN 11° 8.8 26
* red - uhf KMWB-DT 23.1 WB MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 22
* red - uhf KARE-DT 11.1 NBC MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 35
* red - uhf WFTC-DT 29.1 UPN MINNEAPOLIS MN 11° 8.8 21
* red - uhf WCCO-DT 4.1 CBS MINNEAPOLIS MN 6° 8.9 32

So I'm close but probably have lots of multipath issues. PBS, NBC, and CBS come in pretty solid. I've been tasked with recording the finale of 24 on FOX this Monday. Unfortunately, FOX breaks up every few seconds with the silver sensor, making it pretty much unwatchable/unrecordable.

Outdoors is probably not going to meet with household approval, but I could potentially get something into the attic, although I'm fairly clueless about running coax down to the appropriate areas. Something like the DB2 (http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html) would be ideal, since I could tolerate its size/shape indoors, but I expect it wouldn't be directional enough.

I'm more seriously considering the CM4221 or the Winegard PR4400, but I'm very open to suggestions.

I'm also wondering about positioning. I could fit a relatively flat antenna like the CM4221 into a nearby closet on the first floor, but I can't imagine that would be ideal for anything but aesthetics. The DB2 I could hang in front of a north-facing window (still indoors). Other than that, I'm left with the attic or an in-room position. Ideally, I'd like to replace all my current indoor antennas, but that would require a VHF/UHF solution.

Ideas?Can anyone point me in the right direction on picking an antenna? Just put aside the other issues and assume (like I am) that I can get it installed somewhere workable... ;)

I would just get a Channel Master CM 4221A 4-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna.

Head over to ***************, antenna forum, read posts by Tigerbangs, he walked me through process, I'm now very happy with an CM 4228.

But I wasn't looking for uhf/vhf as you appear to be, so 4221 wont cut it either.

Originally posted by etcarroll

But I wasn't looking for uhf/vhf as you appear to be, so 4221 wont cut it either.

All his/her channels are UHF. The 4221 outside should be more than adequate. It probably would work in the attic as well at that distance (9mi.).

The 4221 (and the 4228 for that matter) have moderate gain for VHF channels 9-13 as well. Low band (2-6) or channels 7,8 often will require a separate VHF antenna.

Originally posted by cpcat
All his/her channels are UHF. The 4221 outside should be more than adequate. It probably would work in the attic as well at that distance (9mi.).

The 4221 (and the 4228 for that matter) have moderate gain for VHF channels 9-13 as well. Low band (2-6) or channels 7,8 often will require a separate VHF antenna.

I was about to say same as you, till I saw the following last line in his post -

"Ideally, I'd like to replace all my current indoor antennas, but that would require a VHF/UHF solution"

i have been reading in alot of places that HDTV stations are required to be full power by July: what is full power considered to be and will that not affect the selecting of an outside antenna?
thanks

i have been reading in alot of places that HDTV stations are required to be full power by July: what is full power considered to be and will that not affect the selecting of an outside antenna?

In the top 100 markets, the "Big 4" (i.e. ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox) are required to have significant coverage by 7/1/05. If they are keeping their current digital channel after the analog shutoff, they are required to be at 100%. This should yield coverage nearly identical to their analog coverage under most circumstances. If they are reverting to their analog channel number after the conversion, they have to cover 80% of their market, which most can do with 50kw on UHF.

All other stations, regardless of market size, are required to be at similar power levels by 7/1/06.

Stations can apply for one six-month extension due to hardships beyond their control, but they have to demonstrate they have done everything possible to meet the deadling (orders made with sufficient lead time, installs scheduled, etc.) Failing to plan for 7/1 is not sufficient hardship.

Stations that fail to meet the deadline will be "locked" at their current power levels until the digital transition is completely over. They might be able to apply for greater power, but their uncovered areas will not be protected from interference from other stations (and other stations would have priority in the event of a conflict.)

Don't you mean 7/1/05 for the top 100 markets?

Don't you mean 7/1/05 for the top 100 markets?

Yes, of course. Edited to correct.

In the top 100 markets, the "Big 4" (i.e. ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox) are required to have significant coverage by 7/1/05. If they are keeping their current digital channel after the analog shutoff, they are required to be at 100%. This should yield coverage nearly identical to their analog coverage under most circumstances. If they are reverting to their analog channel number after the conversion, they have to cover 80% of their market, which most can do with 50kw on UHF.

Unfortunately, out in the Bay Area (S.F./Oakland/San Jose), the Digital Sutro channels are on a lower part of the tower than the analogs. As a result, signals don't really pass over the Oakland Hills, leaving people like my parents, living in Walnut Creek, and pretty much all of Pleasanton, and large portions of the East Bay without DTV reception.

here is my antenna web info...
outside antenna is def an option i am willing to look into..
any recomendations?


red - uhf WMPT 22 PBS ANNAPOLIS MD 8° 31.8 22
* blue - uhf WMPT-DT 22.2 PBS ANNAPOLIS MD 8° 31.8 42
blue - uhf WDCA 20 UPN WASHINGTON DC 326° 40.1 20
blue - uhf WETA 26 PBS WASHINGTON DC 326° 40.1 26
blue - vhf WJLA 7 ABC WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 7
blue - uhf WBFF 45 FOX BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 45
blue - uhf WBDC 50 WB WASHINGTON DC 331° 37.2 50
blue - vhf WUSA 9 CBS WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 9
* blue - uhf WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 34
blue - uhf WUTB 24 UPN BALTIMORE MD 0° 51.9 24
blue - uhf WFDC 14 TFA ARLINGTON VA 326° 38.1 14
blue - vhf WTTG 5 FOX WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.9 5
blue - uhf WNUV 54 WB BALTIMORE MD 0° 51.9 54
blue - uhf WHUT 32 PBS WASHINGTON DC 326° 40.1 32
violet - vhf WMAR 2 ABC BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 2
violet - uhf WMDT 47 ABC SALISBURY MD 105° 45.9 47
violet - uhf WMPB 67 PBS BALTIMORE MD 1° 63.1 67
violet - uhf WNVC 56 IND FAIRFAX VA 314° 41.2 56
violet - vhf WJZ 13 CBS BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 13
violet - uhf WZDC-LP 64 TEL ARLINGTON VA 331° 37.2 64
violet - uhf WUPV 65 UPN ASHLAND VA 224° 66.7 65
* violet - uhf WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.9 36
violet - vhf WRC 4 NBC WASHINGTON DC 326° 38.1 4
* violet - uhf WRC-DT 4.1 NBC WASHINGTON DC 326° 38.1 48
violet - uhf WPXW 66 PAX MANASSAS VA 303° 43.5 66
* violet - uhf WBDC-DT 50.1 WB WASHINGTON DC 331° 37.2 51
violet - uhf WBOC 16 CBS SALISBURY MD 104° 50.8 16
* violet - uhf WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 39
violet - uhf WCPB 28 PBS SALISBURY MD 112° 54.7 28
violet - vhf WBAL 11 NBC BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 11
violet - uhf WFPT 62 PBS FREDERICK MD 333° 65.9 62

DrkWtsn,
CM 4228 and CM rotor and try the attic first for esthetic and weather reasons.

here is my antenna web info...
outside antenna is def an option i am willing to look into..
any recomendations?


red - uhf WMPT 22 PBS ANNAPOLIS MD 8° 31.8 22
* blue - uhf WMPT-DT 22.2 PBS ANNAPOLIS MD 8° 31.8 42
blue - uhf WDCA 20 UPN WASHINGTON DC 326° 40.1 20
blue - uhf WETA 26 PBS WASHINGTON DC 326° 40.1 26
blue - vhf WJLA 7 ABC WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 7
blue - uhf WBFF 45 FOX BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 45
blue - uhf WBDC 50 WB WASHINGTON DC 331° 37.2 50
blue - vhf WUSA 9 CBS WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 9
* blue - uhf WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 34
blue - uhf WUTB 24 UPN BALTIMORE MD 0° 51.9 24
blue - uhf WFDC 14 TFA ARLINGTON VA 326° 38.1 14
blue - vhf WTTG 5 FOX WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.9 5
blue - uhf WNUV 54 WB BALTIMORE MD 0° 51.9 54
blue - uhf WHUT 32 PBS WASHINGTON DC 326° 40.1 32
violet - vhf WMAR 2 ABC BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 2
violet - uhf WMDT 47 ABC SALISBURY MD 105° 45.9 47
violet - uhf WMPB 67 PBS BALTIMORE MD 1° 63.1 67
violet - uhf WNVC 56 IND FAIRFAX VA 314° 41.2 56
violet - vhf WJZ 13 CBS BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 13
violet - uhf WZDC-LP 64 TEL ARLINGTON VA 331° 37.2 64
violet - uhf WUPV 65 UPN ASHLAND VA 224° 66.7 65
* violet - uhf WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.9 36
violet - vhf WRC 4 NBC WASHINGTON DC 326° 38.1 4
* violet - uhf WRC-DT 4.1 NBC WASHINGTON DC 326° 38.1 48
violet - uhf WPXW 66 PAX MANASSAS VA 303° 43.5 66
* violet - uhf WBDC-DT 50.1 WB WASHINGTON DC 331° 37.2 51
violet - uhf WBOC 16 CBS SALISBURY MD 104° 50.8 16
* violet - uhf WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC WASHINGTON DC 327° 38.5 39
violet - uhf WCPB 28 PBS SALISBURY MD 112° 54.7 28
violet - vhf WBAL 11 NBC BALTIMORE MD 7° 54.4 11
violet - uhf WFPT 62 PBS FREDERICK MD 333° 65.9 62

If you want a shot at all of those, you'll have to go with a large vhf/uhf combo on a rotor (Winegard 8200p, CM 3671) and a CM 7777 preamp. You can get better performance from separates though. If you're willing to give up low band vhf (2-6), consider the Antennasdirect XG91 for UHF and Antennacraft Y107-13 for high band (7-13). These are small enough so you could put them both on the rotator spaced at least 48 inches apart. You *could* use a full band vhf like the Wade/
Delhi VIP 306 or Antennacraft CS 900 or 3BG22 on the bottom but that may be pushing the limits of your rotor. If you fix the VHF section below the rotor, obviously you could go as big as you like but you won't have the luxury of rotating for VHF. The CM 4228 for UHF is a good choice but will be high loading on the rotor.

The CM 7777 has separate VHF and UHF inputs if you go with separates, and a "combined" input if you don't. Make sure the internal switches are set correctly.

I wouldn't waste time in your attic.

here is my antenna web info...
outside antenna is def an option i am willing to look into..
any recomendations?

If you want the analogs, you'll need both a UHF and VHF antenna. Otherwise, a UHF-only will serve you well.

For violet areas, you'll want as good an antenna as you can get, mounted outside as high as you can go. Since your closest station is over 30 miles away, a preamp is a great idea as well. Check into the Channel Master 7777, as it's a top performer.

I just moved into a new apartment about 15 miles south of Boston, and I was expecting reception to be great, however, I'm having some major troubles getting a solid signal. The main problem is that my apartment faces south and there is no feasible way to get a north-facing antenna mounted. Also, I'm on the ground floor, and about 50 feet from the south side is a forest, so I'd expect that I'm getting hit by multipathing as well. I've tried a few antennas so far: the Winegard Squareshooter, a Silver Sensor, and a couple RCA indoor antennas with preamps (I have access to a Best Buy discount, so that's the reason behind those selections). I've tried all the windows and everywhere within the apartment, I can't get consistent reception on all stations - it seems like even if I lock on to some of them, one or two of them always has completely inconsistent reception (jumping between 10-80%). It's starting to look like I'm going to have to mount something outside, which I was hoping to avoid. Does anyone have any suggestions on what to do in a situation like this? Do I have any indoor antenna choices that could work, and if outdoor mounting really would be the best for me, what should I use? Should I be using directional antennas since I can't really point them directly at the station?

I've included my antennaweb data for reference, and I'm using a MyHD MDP-120 for tuning. Thanks in advance for any tips!

* yellow - uhf WSBK-DT 38.1 UPN BOSTON MA 342° 12.0 39
* yellow - uhf WFXT-DT 25.1 FOX BOSTON MA 345° 11.1 31
* yellow - uhf WGBH-DT 2.1 PBS BOSTON MA 342° 12.0 19
* yellow - uhf WGBX-DT 44.1 PBS BOSTON MA 342° 12.0 43
* yellow - uhf WBZ-DT 4.1 CBS BOSTON MA 342° 12.0 30
* yellow - uhf WBPX-DT 68.1 PAX BOSTON MA 344° 11.5 32
* yellow - uhf WCVB-DT 5.1 ABC BOSTON MA 342° 12.0 20
* yellow - uhf WHDH-DT 7.1 NBC BOSTON MA 346° 11.5 42
* green - uhf WLVI-DT 56.1 WB CAMBRIDGE MA 345° 11.1 41

If you want the analogs, you'll need both a UHF and VHF antenna. Otherwise, a UHF-only will serve you well.

For violet areas, you'll want as good an antenna as you can get, mounted outside as high as you can go. Since your closest station is over 30 miles away, a preamp is a great idea as well. Check into the Channel Master 7777, as it's a top performer.


I have cable for the analog.. all i want is the digital channels (hdtv)
thanks everyone

Since this seems to be the thread for antenna recommendations, I will ask for help here. I'm hoping I don't annoy anyone with another mindless post. Here goes.

My location:
900 S. Kansas Ave.
Hastings, NE 68901

AntennaWeb results:
red - uhf KTVG 17 FOX GRAND ISLAND NE 312° 14.4 17
* red - uhf KGIN-DT 11.1 CBS GRAND ISLAND NE 266° 21.9 32
red - vhf KHAS 5 NBC HASTINGS NE 355° 5.4 5
red - uhf KHNE 29 PBS HASTINGS NE 42° 20.7 29
* red - uhf KHNE-DT 28.1 PBS HASTINGS NE 42° 20.8 28
blue - vhf KGIN 11 CBS GRAND ISLAND NE 267° 21.9 11
* blue - uhf KHAS-DT 5.1 NBC HASTINGS NE 355° 5.4 21
blue - vhf KHGI 13 ABC KEARNEY NE 277° 25.0 13
* blue - uhf KHGI-DT 13.1 ABC KEARNEY NE 277° 25.4 36
* blue - uhf KTVG-DT 17.1 FOX GRAND ISLAND NE 312° 14.4 19

If anyone uses the antennaweb site for my address, I don't care about the last 4 channels on the list.

Current antenna is an outdoor VHF/UHF Radioshack job, fairly large, and thanks to the recent hailstorm that rolled through town, in pretty bad shape. Currently, no amps are used in the system, which is split in various places to support ~8 tuners (some tv sets/vcrs, some tuner cards in PCs.)

Requirements for the new antenna system: needs VHF and UHF, no rotors (someone would always complain with the number of tuners on the system,) also, because of strong reception on 5, amping the signals may be problematic. OTOH, with as many times as it is split and the cable lenghts involved (longest run is 150'+, possibly 200'), an amp may cause no trouble at all.

I am currently thinking that a regular combo antenna of decent size could be combined with a UHF only antenna using a jointenna. The combo job would (theoretically) recieve most of the stations and the UHF would recieve 28 and 29. I suppose an amp somewhere in that mix would be beneficial.

Whew, well thanks to anyone who took the time to read all that! Any and all suggestions/thoughts greatly appreciated.

Brian

I suppose an amp somewhere in that mix would be beneficial.


Unless you have local considerations (low terrain, trees) I would avoid an amplifier. Generally, these aren't useful until 30+ miles away. Inside of that, they can do much more harm than good, and since you have so many close, strong signals, it is unlikely that a preamplifier would do much for you.

Requirements for the new antenna system: needs VHF and UHF, no rotors (someone would always complain with the number of tuners on the system,) also, because of strong reception on 5, amping the signals may be problematic. OTOH, with as many times as it is split and the cable lenghts involved (longest run is 150'+, possibly 200'), an amp may cause no trouble at all.

I am currently thinking that a regular combo antenna of decent size could be combined with a UHF only antenna using a jointenna. The combo job would (theoretically) recieve most of the stations and the UHF would recieve 28 and 29. I suppose an amp somewhere in that mix would be beneficial.

Whew, well thanks to anyone who took the time to read all that! Any and all suggestions/thoughts greatly appreciated.

Brian

Brian

I live in Kearney and can receive all the stations listed with one antenna. Fortunately my location allows me to point in one general direction and receive an acceptable signal from all of them. (including 21 @1.355 KW at 39 miles away!) I would not be able to receive all of them without an amplifier. Your location is not as antenna friendly. One thing to remember is that if you want to receive the digital signal from 5(21), 13(36) and 17(19) is that they are not broadcasting at full power. Channels 11(32) and 29(28) are broadcasting with a much stronger signal and will be much easier to receive. I am using an amplifier without any overloading problems. There is one catch though. It is a Winegard AP-8700 which is a "medium" power amp. I tried an AP-8275 which is a "high" power amp and had overload problems. I live about 13 miles from the 13 tower and 17 miles from the 11 tower. I really think that if you want to receive solid UHF signals you will want to use a medium power low noise amplifier of some kind, especially with that kind of cable length. I actually enjoy watching channel 5 now that the interference is gone! I made a map that shows tower heights and power as well as distance to your place. I think your plan to use two antennae with a jointenna is a worthy one. One other thing, make sure you turn in any damaged equipment to your insurance company to help pay for some new equipment.

how can a person find out what their local digital channels are broadcasting at as far as power wise? i.e. 20kw,30kw or 50kw

edited to say Ft Myers,Fl. locals for example

how can a person find out what their local digital channels are broadcasting at as far as power wise? i.e. 20kw,30kw or 50kw

Spend some time here:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Type in the call letters of a station. Select "TV Query (detailed output +CDBS links)". Look for a digital record that indicates "licensed." If none exist, it is probably the highest-powered one listed as an STA.

Or you could email the engineers at the stations you're interested in.

Checking your local market thread and asking there is also a good idea, as there are probably dozens of regulars who know the answer and will share it if asked.

how can a person find out what their local digital channels are broadcasting at as far as power wise? i.e. 20kw,30kw or 50kw

edited to say Ft Myers,Fl. locals for example

For Ft. Myers: http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/fl/tv_information.asp?m=for

Click on "complete FCC data" for the analog station and it will give you all the available info for both the digital and analog station. Stations with "special temporary authority" have the option of being at lower power still. To know for sure, though, you need word from someone at the station. Many are at full power and still have STA's listed.

For Ft. Myers: http://www.tvradioworld.com/region1/fl/tv_information.asp?m=for

Click on "complete FCC data" for the analog station and it will give you all the available info for both the digital and analog station. Stations with "special temporary authority" have the option of being at lower power still. To know for sure, though, you need word from someone at the station. Many are at full power and still have STA's listed.


thanks that's what i was looking for :)

I had an antena profesionally installed in my Addict and seem to get reception pretty well. But on some days its just terrible. I think I'm going to have to call him back out. He usually brings his own hd box to test the signal.

Is there a better software tool than MCE to measure my actual signal strength? The 5 bars seem pretty useless. I also notice they change every time a scan finishes. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Hi,
I'm not sure I know how to do this but I need help. We live in an outlying area (Copper Canyon, TX 75077)and have always had a roof top antenna (short one story roof). We are getting a new antenna and also are getting an HDTV. We have no idea what antenna to get to allow good HD reception. We live pretty far (I think) from the stations. The antenna web results were as follows:

* red - uhf KMPX-DT 30.1 DAY DECATUR TX 140° 17.8 30
* blue - uhf KLDT-DT 55.1 IND LAKE DALLAS TX 125° 8.5 54
* blue - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 WB DALLAS TX 163° 38.2 32
* blue - uhf KERA-DT 14.1 PBS DALLAS TX 161° 35.9 14
* blue - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 163° 35.2 35
* blue - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 162° 35.3 41
* blue - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 162° 35.3 40
* blue - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 161° 35.9 19
* violet - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 UPN FORT WORTH TX 163° 38.2 18
* violet - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 163° 35.2 9
* violet - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 163° 35.0 24
* violet - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 163° 38.2 43
* violet - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 PAX ARLINGTON TX 163° 34.9 42
* violet - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 163° 38.2 48
* violet - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 162° 35.0 51

We are so confused by all the options. Could someone give us an idea of what might work for us. We don't have power to where the antenna would be located so I don't think we can have a rotor. We also will several (3 or 4) TV's and have installed RG6 wire to the TV locations.

Thanks tons for any help!!!!
Robin

Hi,
I'm not sure I know how to do this but I need help. We live in an outlying area (Copper Canyon, TX 75077)and have always had a roof top antenna (short one story roof). We are getting a new antenna and also are getting an HDTV. We have no idea what antenna to get to allow good HD reception. We live pretty far (I think) from the stations. The antenna web results were as follows:

* red - uhf KMPX-DT 30.1 DAY DECATUR TX 140° 17.8 30
* blue - uhf KLDT-DT 55.1 IND LAKE DALLAS TX 125° 8.5 54
* blue - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 WB DALLAS TX 163° 38.2 32
* blue - uhf KERA-DT 14.1 PBS DALLAS TX 161° 35.9 14
* blue - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 163° 35.2 35
* blue - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 162° 35.3 41
* blue - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 162° 35.3 40
* blue - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 161° 35.9 19
* violet - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 UPN FORT WORTH TX 163° 38.2 18
* violet - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 163° 35.2 9
* violet - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 163° 35.0 24
* violet - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 163° 38.2 43
* violet - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 PAX ARLINGTON TX 163° 34.9 42
* violet - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 163° 38.2 48
* violet - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 162° 35.0 51

We are so confused by all the options. Could someone give us an idea of what might work for us. We don't have power to where the antenna would be located so I don't think we can have a rotor. We also will several (3 or 4) TV's and have installed RG6 wire to the TV locations.

Thanks tons for any help!!!!
Robin

ChannelMaster 4228 UHF 8 BAY BOWTIE with PREAMP. If that doesn't work, I don't know what else would.

ChannelMaster 4228 UHF 8 BAY BOWTIE with PREAMP. If that doesn't work, I don't know what else would.
Seems like a good suggestion. You might need something else for Channel 9. There's a nice Funke VHF-hi yagi-corner reflector around if you need it, but you might be okay with the CM4228's VHF-hi gain as is:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
Around 3dBd, that should be enough.

We live in an outlying area (Copper Canyon, TX 75077)and have always had a roof top antenna (short one story roof). We are getting a new antenna and also are getting an HDTV. We have no idea what antenna to get to allow good HD reception.

Why are you getting a new antenna? Is the old one not working well? HD uses the exact same frequencies as analog, so if you're getting good UHF (almost all your digital stations use UHF) reception now, you already have what you need.

The 4228 isn't a bad choice for a fixed install (i.e. not with a rotor) but I think the 4221 might be a slightly better choice. While most of your stations are at 162-163 degrees, a few are off-axis enough that the 4228 might be a touch too directional to get a good signal.

35-40 miles isn't "way out." I'm "way out" at 75 miles, and I still get good reception a lot of the time. At 40 miles, any quality "fringe" UHF/VHF antenna should work great. I used a Winegard HD7084P on my roof for a couple of years (single story) and anything inside of 50 miles was easy to get, in spite of my being below average grade and blocked by trees.

I'd caution against getting the preamplifier until after the antenna is up - they solve one very specific problem - weak signal (snow on analogs) - but can cause lots of problems if that very specific problem isn't your issue (and it probably won't be.)

As for power for a rotor - they use a special three-strand cable from the outdoor box to the indoor unit that supplies the power and controls the rotor - no need for electricity outside.

ChannelMaster 4228 UHF 8 BAY BOWTIE with PREAMP. If that doesn't work, I don't know what else would.

He'd better be cautious about preamp overload with that full power analog only 8 miles away. I'd go without the preamp first then add maybe a low gain preamp or even a distribution amp if needed later.

Agreed - the preamp (7777) I used with the CM 4228 for a transmitter 9 miles away overloaded the receiver and my picture went from ocassional breakups to non-existent with "No Signal" being displayed. It can make things much worse ;(

He'd better be cautious about preamp overload with that full power analog only 8 miles away. I'd go without the preamp first then add maybe a low gain preamp or even a distribution amp if needed later.

Ok here it is: Pic of my setup. In a nutshell, the main mast is a piece of fence posting. It is supported by concrete in the ground, as well as the chimey straps. The rotator is mounted about 1/2 way down the chimney. I'm also using 2 rotator bearings so the majority of the mast has the 2 masts running side by side. The top rotator bearing is guyed to the house.

From the pic you can see the VHF only is at the bottom, the dish looking UHF is at the top and the FM only is at the very top. I wonder if these are too close to each other even though they're all running different frequencies. Right now I'm running no preamp, but do have a radio shack 4 way distribuation amp to help drive the signal through out the house.

I plan to probably ditch the channel master dish looking UHF and try out one of those Yagi style ones.

So far this stack has survived 10 years from everything such as icing in the inter as well as Tropical Storm Isabel last year.

I have no complaints about the FM or the VHF, but the UHF has something to be desired. I'm looking for any type of advice, good or bad.

I should mention that right now I am only using analog TV. Hopefully today, my dish 811 will arrive so I can try out digital TV. Also, according to the antenna web, I'm sort of on a side of a hill but I think my main (baltimore) stations I watch are just grazing the side of that hill. I think this hill is what is causing some multipath (or blocking some of the UHF altogether) especially in the UHF.

I'd like to get an elevation (what kind of map is that called?) so I can do some better calculations/drawings.


http://home.comcast.net/~ewong61/antenna/antenna1.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~ewong61/antenna/antenna2.JPG

http://home.comcast.net/~ewong61/antenna/antenna3.JPG




Hey all, I can't believe its been 6 months since I posted this last. Anyway, its now great weather here in the mid-atlantic so I can do my outdoor projects once again.

Heres what I'm planning to do. I'm going to rent a cherry-picker and loose that huge dish looking antenna. Add a pre-amp mainly for the UHF. Probably keep the existing VHF and the FM. I'd like to keep them on the same stack. A previous posted indicated my antennas were too close. How far away should they be positioned away from each other to minimize interference?

I'm probably going to get the Antennas direct 91XG http://www.antennasdirect.com/91XG_HDTV_antenna.html http://www.antennasdirect.com/images/91XG-large.jpg as the TV reception takes #1 priority over what it looks like.

So the main questions-- how far away should the UHF be from the other 2 antennas, and #2, is there a recommended preamp, preferably a UHF/VHF combiner preamp- I am looking at the Channel Master 7777 preamp...

If you want to amp only UHF, look into the Winegard preamps. I think that the Channel Master UHF preamp blocks VHF. Winegard makes a preamp that boosts UHF while combining it with (unamped) VHF signals. I don't know if you are wanting to amp both as the post you quoted seemed to indicate that only the UHF band needed help. Also, sregener brings up a good point, in that adding a preamp won't help multipath problems.

Eric,

Isn't that parabolic UHF antenna about the highest gain model that has even been built. I don't think anything currently on the market, including the 91XG has as much forward gain. If weak signals are your problem, I think I would be keeping the parabolic antenna.

I think that the Channel Master UHF preamp blocks VHF. Winegard makes a preamp that boosts UHF while combining it with (unamped) VHF signals.

Not quite correct - see link from
http://www.signalelectronics.com/channelmaster%20preamp.htm

"Models 7777 and 7778 cover both VHF and UHF bands with separate amplification in each band for maximum signal handling. They may be configured for either separate or combined VHF and UHF inputs. They include a switchable FM trap. "

Also see nice table in this link

peter

So the main questions-- how far away should the UHF be from the other 2 antennas, and #2, is there a recommended preamp, preferably a UHF/VHF combiner preamp- I am looking at the Channel Master 7777 preamp...

To minimize interference, a UHF antenna should be at least one wavelength away from any other antennas. This measurement is taken from the active element in your setup. Since that dish is probably of the 7' variety, you were probably already fine. While others can do the math, I'd guess 4' should do you just fine.

The CM777 is one of the best preamplifiers on the market, especially for noise - 2.0db is a nice, low number. It has separate inputs for UHF and VHF, and does a good job isolating the two.

While the parabolics have a real nice gain number, their front-to-back ratio (crucial for digital reception) is not so great. The 91XG is a fine choice. However, you may not see much improvement if you place it in the same spot - elevation is more important than anything else with UHF reception, at least until you clear all local obstructions and trees by 10 feet.

Good luck!

Eric,

Isn't that parabolic UHF antenna about the highest gain model that has even been built. I don't think anything currently on the market, including the 91XG has as much forward gain. If weak signals are your problem, I think I would be keeping the parabolic antenna.


I dont know, it may very well be. My dad put that thing up. If its a good dish then heck, I'll keep it, saves me $80 from a new antenna. Right now the UHF sux and I think part of it is due to the antennas being too close and the lack of a preamp. I will probably amplify both UHF and VHF. I live far out enough in the country side that overload should not be a problem and when I try to receiver further stations such as Philly or Washington DC, the VHF will help.

I'm either gonna cherry picker it or use scaffolding, whichever is more cost effective. I need to get up there because one of the upper antenna masts is slipping in the wind and its really annoying. I thought it was the rotator at first, but after doing some testing using a long handled broom the rotator wasnt being blown, it was just the top mast slipping. So I gotta either drive a screw through there or get my welder up there to prevent that from happening.

How far away should I put the antennas? Or, maybe I'll try a different approach altogether, since now I have an extra rotator, put the VHF on another part of the house...and then also get a vertical rotator for that dish for maximum UHF pulling power....

To minimize interference, a UHF antenna should be at least one wavelength away from any other antennas. This measurement is taken from the active element in your setup. Since that dish is probably of the 7' variety, you were probably already fine. While others can do the math, I'd guess 4' should do you just fine.

The CM777 is one of the best preamplifiers on the market, especially for noise - 2.0db is a nice, low number. It has separate inputs for UHF and VHF, and does a good job isolating the two.

While the parabolics have a real nice gain number, their front-to-back ratio (crucial for digital reception) is not so great. The 91XG is a fine choice. However, you may not see much improvement if you place it in the same spot - elevation is more important than anything else with UHF reception, at least until you clear all local obstructions and trees by 10 feet.

Good luck!


Thanks for that reply. I'll be ordering the 7777 preamplifier as soon as I'm done typing this. I will also think about getting that thing up higher. Last time me, my dad and a neighbor drug that stack of antennas on the roof and got it in place. This time, with a cherry picker I should be able to get it higher. I'll put an extra bearing and some more guy wire up there to keep it in place.

What exactly is the front to back ratio?

Looking for balun (matching transformer) with longish cable
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Due to my setup, life would be made much easier if I could find a balun (300-75 ohm) with a longish cable, say about 12 inches. I searched on Google and several sites but so far without success - anyone know where I might be able to get one.

Alternatively, any idea if anyone sells a 1ft ready made section of RG6 with cables. The smallest I have found so far is 3ft. I know I could cut it in to 2 section and add connectors, but I would rather have this expertly done at the factory ;-)

thanks

Peter
p.s I basically want to join 2 antennas on the same mast with the least amount of connectors / failure points possible.

Hey all, I can't believe its been 6 months since I posted this last. Anyway, its now great weather here in the mid-atlantic so I can do my outdoor projects once again.

Heres what I'm planning to do. I'm going to rent a cherry-picker and loose that huge dish looking antenna. Add a pre-amp mainly for the UHF. Probably keep the existing VHF and the FM. I'd like to keep them on the same stack. A previous posted indicated my antennas were too close. How far away should they be positioned away from each other to minimize interference?

I'm probably going to get the Antennas direct 91XG http://www.antennasdirect.com/91XG_HDTV_antenna.html http://www.antennasdirect.com/images/91XG-large.jpg as the TV reception takes #1 priority over what it looks like.

So the main questions-- how far away should the UHF be from the other 2 antennas, and #2, is there a recommended preamp, preferably a UHF/VHF combiner preamp- I am looking at the Channel Master 7777 preamp...

Looking back at your earlier post, you are only 17 miles out from the Baltimore towers. It's possible you may run into overload problems with the CM 7777. You might do better with the CM 3042 distribution amp (at Lowe's) placed inside and continue to use the vhf/uhf diplexer on the mast. The new RS one is good as is the CM 0549 and Pico makes a good one http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf

48 inches seems to be enough spacing for uhf and vhf 7-13. You'll need more for 2-6 vhf (60 works o.k.). When trying to prevent interaction, spacing should be measured between closest antenna elements i.e. any horizontal metal antenna part needs to be considered to prevent interaction. You are too close currently. See http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stacking.html

The CM 4251 dish is very high gain but not as directional as the 91xg and has lower front-back ratio as mentioned. FB ratio and directionality is important for mulitpath (ghosting) rejection.

You may need to consider an FM trap as well if you're going with some sort of amplification. The Winegard model is good and the hi port of a hi/lo combiner works well if you don't need low band vhf (2-6) . See the pico link above.

What exactly is the front to back ratio?

It is a measurement of the difference in signal strength of the antenna for a signal coming in the front (the proper end of the antenna) versus the back (the wrong end of the antenna.) Ideally, you should not receive any signal from the back of antenna, but no reflector screen is perfect, so there's always some signal that "leaks through." The parabolic screen on the Channel Master parabolic is especially porous (might have something to do with the active elements facing "backwards.")

Looking back at your earlier post, you are only 17 miles out from the Baltimore towers. It's possible you may run into overload problems with the CM 7777.

17 miles should be fine if he is physically blocked - which it sounds like.

If his signals look anything like my 31 and 45 (http://www.geocities.com/figbert/8vsb.html) then a preamplifier is a good idea.

Of course, amplifying the VHF in such a circumstance could cause problems, since VHF bends readily.

17 miles should be fine if he is physically blocked - which it sounds like.

If his signals look anything like my 31 and 45 (http://www.geocities.com/figbert/8vsb.html) then a preamplifier is a good idea.

Of course, amplifying the VHF in such a circumstance could cause problems, since VHF bends readily.


17 miles is pretty close in no matter what for full power stations and with a high gain preamp like the 7777. If the line of sight is obstructed then most likely the problem is multipath in which case a preamp is unlikely to help anyway. Assuming not, a lower gain preamp or even a line amp like I mentioned would be more immune to overload. I've had overload problems (?intermodulation) with my 7777 when attempting to use it as a line amp (20 db amp on the mast, 7777 in-line after 130 ft. cable) and my closest full power is 50 miles.

VHF bends as you say but most VHF or combo preamps (CM 7777 included) are also lower gain and have higher output capacity at VHF frequencies.

Not quite correct - see link from
http://www.signalelectronics.com/channelmaster%20preamp.htm

"Models 7777 and 7778 cover both VHF and UHF bands with separate amplification in each band for maximum signal handling. They may be configured for either separate or combined VHF and UHF inputs. They include a switchable FM trap. "

Also see nice table in this link

peter

Sorry, my post wasn't very clear. I was referring to CM model 7775. It's a UHF only model, and I don't believe that it passes VHF. I agree that the other models will do a good job of handling both bands. In a previous post, it sounded like he might have been interested in only amping UHF. However, now it sounds like he will be amping both, for which the 7777 or the 7778 should work well.

Sorry for the newbie question, but I haven't been able to find the answer to my question so far.

I just moved to a rental townhouse in Brookline (essentially part of Boston), and according to antennaweb, am only ~6 miles from lots of HDTV stations. But there's a large building across the street that appears to be blocking the path.

I tried "silver sensor", and when I originally scanned for channels, could only pick up a NH PBS station 57 miles away! And when I checked the signal for the Boston stations, the best I could get was 48% (and no picture), no matter where I went in my house or within a 100 ft down the street...

I'm hoping to have a Dish Network dish installed in a few days, and am now hoping I could get the guy to install an OTA antenna as well.

Antennaweb suggests a "red" (medium directional?) antenna. What antenna should I get, or what else should I try?

Thanks much,
Dave.

I've been curious about this since I've decided to get an antenna. Because of where I live I've been leaning towards a CM4228 or CM4221. My local channels all have their HD channel above 14 now so UHF will be fine. But what happens once the digital deadline comes? Will the local channels, currently with VHF numbers for SD, start broadcasting their HD back on their old SD frequency, thus rendering my UHF only antenna useless? Or will they continue to broadcast on two frequencies? I know I'll probably get better reception right now with a UHF only, but I'd rather be proactive and get something that will work in the future.

Deezul

Hi you-all, haven't been to the site lately, as I have been too busy with other stuff lately, such as re-trying out a pair of stacked DAT-75's. In my opinion, as when I tried them out before, a single CM4228 still out-performed them. I then installed a CM4251, as shown in the picture, and it out-performs them all and does just as well on digital as it does on analog. This is the one I told MAXHD about that I bought from someone that had it lying behind his shed. I cleaned it up, and straightened the bent reflectors on it out as well as I could. Figured that I would show you-all what one looks like installed.
Also, I just read the latest posts about the parabolics, and yes they are the highest gain OTC antennas ever made.

fay28301

I've been curious about this since I've decided to get an antenna. Because of where I live I've been leaning towards a CM4228 or CM4221. My local channels all have their HD channel above 14 now so UHF will be fine. But what happens once the digital deadline comes? Will the local channels, currently with VHF numbers for SD, start broadcasting their HD back on their old SD frequency, thus rendering my UHF only antenna useless? Or will they continue to broadcast on two frequencies? I know I'll probably get better reception right now with a UHF only, but I'd rather be proactive and get something that will work in the future.

The second channel for digital is only temporary. When the transition is over, each station will have to give one of the two channels it has back to the government.

In early February of this year, each station was required to send the FCC a form indicating which channel they would like to settle on. It's called a "DTV First Round Election" form. In most cases, a station may pick either their analog or their DT channel for post-analog operation, as long as it's within the "core" -- that is, channels 2 through 51.

Stations stuck with two "out-of-core" channels, or a "low-VHF" channel between 2 and 6, can either try to negotiate an arrangement with another station or move to a second round of elections, in which they can pick from the leftovers.

If you wish to see what your stations have filed, go here:
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_sear.htm

This should take you to the FCC's "search for application" page. Plug in the station's callsign (you may have to use the "-TV" suffix) or city of license and, where it says "form number", select form 382. It should show you a list containing one or several applications. Then, where it says "Info/Application," click on "Application."

Many VHF stations will transition DTV to their old analog channel assignments.
However, many are keeping their UHF DTV assignment, or moving to a different UHF channel.
Note they have already invested heavily on the new UHF station, and should eventually save barrels of hard cash on their monthly electric bill.

DTV Channel Election statistics were discussed in Doug Lung's TVTechnology column:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/F_Lung-04.06.05.shtml
Note the link to a zip file summarizing channel election information as of 23 Feb 05.

The fol. Feb05 DTV Channel Election Summary is even easier to read:
http://www.dtvinfo.com/fccinfo/Form%20382%20Election%20Results.pdf

Hi you-all, haven't been to the site lately, as I have been too busy with other stuff lately, such as re-trying out a pair of stacked DAT-75's. In my opinion, as when I tried them out before, a single CM4228 still out-performed them. I then installed a CM4251, as shown in the picture, and it out-performs them all and does just as well on digital as it does on analog. This is the one I told MAXHD about that I bought from someone that had it lying behind his shed. I cleaned it up, and straightened the bent reflectors on it out as well as I could. Figured that I would show you-all what one looks like installed.
Also, I just read the latest posts about the parabolics, and yes they are the highest gain OTC antennas ever made.

fay28301

Congratulations on a fine setup. :)

The 4251 is really fairly common in my area. You just have to get out into the country a bit and you'll see 4228's everywhere and probably a 4251 one out of ten. I'm sure a modest dollar offer would be accepted especially if there's also a dish on the roof/in the yard.

To get the best out of the DAT 75's when stacking them horizontally you have to space them out a bit. I used 56 inches. Televes recommends 57. This seems to be consistent with the recc put forth by Joseph Reisert at http://www.astronwireless.com/stacking.html and also is similar to stacking distances (for the lowest channel received) recc. by CATV antenna manufacturers like Lindsay Elec.
This also gives the best performance with the Triax Unix 100 Band A's (ch. 14-38) in my experience. It really narrows the beamwidth, though, so may not be preferred by Dxers as "catching" the signal is very important in that situation. The wider spacing also creates larger sidelobes but they don't seem to create a problem for me.

I've searched the forum for help regarding trees and OTA reception, but have not found a definitive answer.

My house is surrounded by a curtain of trees, from 30-100 feet away, and about 60 feet high. I have an older UHF/VHF classic directional tv antenna on the roof, and it does an admirable job with most HD channels, but a few are simply unworkable. The broadcast towers are all about 10miles away, and the stations are in about the same direction (185 and 199). I've tried an amplifier (not a pre-amp), rewired coax directly to the antenna, and even purchased a ChannelMaster Stealth (3010), but to no avail. Short of an 80 foot tower in my backyard, is there anything I can do that is reasonably inexpensive (less than $100), or should I give it up?

Thanks in advance, sorry if I broke any protocol, I'm new to this.

ps- I'm in the Washington, DC suburban area - 20853 - if that helps.

I have the winegard squareshooter 2 (with pre-amp), mounted on my chimney.
At present I am pulling in 13 over the air HDTV stations, a couple of which are
automated weather/info channels. I also have Cox cable, and They offer my local
channels free in HDTV. The antenna is a multidirectional unit, approx 16" square,
barely noticed from the street. Antennaweb says I should only be able to receive 9 stations. About the ony HD channels I can not get are ESPN & Discovery.
I've also noticed that the over the air channels are a bit clearer than the cable,
as the cable company uses signal compression.

I've searched the forum for help regarding trees and OTA reception, but have not found a definitive answer.

My house is surrounded by a curtain of trees, from 30-100 feet away, and about 60 feet high. I have an older UHF/VHF classic directional tv antenna on the roof, and it does an admirable job with most HD channels, but a few are simply unworkable. The broadcast towers are all about 10miles away, and the stations are in about the same direction (185 and 199). I've tried an amplifier (not a pre-amp), rewired coax directly to the antenna, and even purchased a ChannelMaster Stealth (3010), but to no avail. Short of an 80 foot tower in my backyard, is there anything I can do that is reasonably inexpensive (less than $100), or should I give it up?

Thanks in advance, sorry if I broke any protocol, I'm new to this.

ps- I'm in the Washington, DC suburban area - 20853 - if that helps.
At only 10 miles you most llikely have *too much* signal if anything. Get rid of the preamps & amps. Put a variable attenuator (RS 15-678 $10) right at the back of your receiver and start dialing down signal levels. The other variable to play with is antenna location. A change of as little as 6 inches can make a big difference sometimes.

I'm in zipcode 55448, 11.1 miles from pretty much all the towers. There is a installer coming this week to install a dish system and they are willing to install a OTA antenna also while they are here. I would prefer using a antenna in my attic (currently have the original from 11 years ago when house was built, I ran new RG6 cable to it but other then that its just kinda sitting up there not mounted or aimed at all - pretty crooked actually) I get most stations usually no problem, there was 1 time when very few came in but I have no idea why. Also, The WB only came in once the whole time i've tried using OTA HDTV.

( red - uhf KMWB-DT 23.1 WB MINNEAPOLIS MN 141° 11.1 22 )

My question is this - Could I stick somethin like a silver sensor up in my attic and have it work effectively by diplexiing the signal with the satellite feeds? (goin to 3 seperate HDTV Boxes) Or would I be better off with somthing like a channel master 4221? For the 4221 would it matter if it is on the roof or in the attic for such a close distance?

Thanks!

I get most stations usually no problem, there was 1 time when very few came in but I have no idea why. Also, The WB only came in once the whole time i've tried using OTA HDTV.

( red - uhf KMWB-DT 23.1 WB MINNEAPOLIS MN 141° 11.1 22 )

My question is this - Could I stick somethin like a silver sensor up in my attic and have it work effectively by diplexiing the signal with the satellite feeds? (goin to 3 seperate HDTV Boxes) Or would I be better off with somthing like a channel master 4221? For the 4221 would it matter if it is on the roof or in the attic for such a close distance?

You can read about things like tower painting, problems and the likes here: www.hdtvtwincities.com Most of the engineers post there when they have problems.

KMWB-DT is running at 20kw, directionally biased (in the extreme) to the south and east. People north and west of the tower typically can't get a signal from 10 miles away, even with great antennas and line of sight.

The 4221 is highly recommended. Outdoors is always better than indoors, as it eliminates many things that cause degradation of signals.

Ok so I havent gotten around to renting the cherry picker yet. But anyway I was combing the net for more info on the parabolic. It appears that the unit I have is the 4251. I found this thread from 2002 here http://archive.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126698

Basically it discusses adding wire mesh to the back of the antenna increases gain and increases the f/b ratio.

I'm thinking about either adding another section to the antenna to further space them apart, then putting the UHF at the very top, since it the hardest to receive. The FM below that and then the VHF below that, or maybe FM at the very bottom and the VHF ontop of that. Thoughts? I hardly use the FM at home, and as it is now I can really reel in some FM stations.

Spend some time here:
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Well, that explains why I can't get one of my local channels in digital.

56 - KJRH-DT -- NBC 800 kW
55 - KOTV-DT -- CBS 970kW
42 - KTFO-DT -- UPN 625kW
22 - KOKI-DT -- FOX 1000kW
10 - KTUL-DT -- ABC 7kW

Can you guess which major station I have problems receiving? :eek:

Well, that explains why I can't get one of my local channels in digital.

56 - KJRH-DT -- NBC 800 kW
55 - KOTV-DT -- CBS 970kW
42 - KTFO-DT -- UPN 625kW
22 - KOKI-DT -- FOX 1000kW
10 - KTUL-DT -- ABC 7kW

Can you guess which major station I have problems receiving? :eek:
I'm guessing the channel on VHF, Channel 10. My channel 3 here is 3.7kW, moving on up to a massive 4.4kW. I get alright reception at 30 miles.
Sounds like you need something with gain. I think MAX HD has a nice VHF-hi yagi that would do the trick:
http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/NewTowerAntennas/index.html

Well, that explains why I can't get one of my local channels in digital.

56 - KJRH-DT -- NBC 800 kW
55 - KOTV-DT -- CBS 970kW
42 - KTFO-DT -- UPN 625kW
22 - KOKI-DT -- FOX 1000kW
10 - KTUL-DT -- ABC 7kW

Can you guess which major station I have problems receiving? :eek:

If you're looking at KTUL, it's not as bad as it appears. VHF uses lower power to get equivalent coverage, and KTUL's digital transmitter is high enough that the maximum the FCC will allow them is 60kw. They're nowhere near that, and they're directional to boot (and if you're in the wrong direction, the signal could be as low as 1.35kw ERP. Still, that should cover at least 20-30 miles without any problems.

If you are using a UHF-only antenna, you may need to point it in a different direction for the VHF signals to come in at their best. I find that my UHF-only antenna does best pointed about +30 degrees from the target signal on hi-VHF.

At only 10 miles you most llikely have *too much* signal if anything. Get rid of the preamps & amps. Put a variable attenuator (RS 15-678 $10) right at the back of your receiver and start dialing down signal levels. The other variable to play with is antenna location. A change of as little as 6 inches can make a big difference sometimes.
Many thanks for your advice. Attenuator didn't help. However, as a last ditch attempt, I picked up an omnidirectional antenna at Radio Shack and that did the trick. Must be enough ambient UHF signals coming around the house and in the clear behind the directional antenna to make it work. You're right about position - I found that even a few inches can make or break a signal.
Cheers.

I have seen pictures, but have been unable to find them of a combination mast setup for an antenna and a dish to be mounted on.

Any ideas?

I have seen pictures, but have been unable to find them of a combination mast setup for an antenna and a dish to be mounted on.

You would need a very strong mast to attach even a mini-dish to. Most antenna masts are rather lightweight and couldn't handle the wind load of an 18" dish.

You would need a very strong mast to attach even a mini-dish to. Most antenna masts are rather lightweight and couldn't handle the wind load of an 18" dish.

The setup I am looking for is a standard satellite dish with bracket, but there is another bracket also for a mast that the antenna clamps on. This way there will be only one bracket being mounted on the new house.

Does anyone think there will be any benefit to using a pre-amp with dist amp on the same line? Is there a chance of overload? I am 36 miles from my antenna farms. I recently relocated my antenna to the roof do to tree leaving and weak signals, and I am now running about 100 ft of rg6 up to the roof. I get all my stations locked in at about 69% and up most of the time. Also, Stark Electronics is in my hometown, so I could go with the CM 7775 and return if I didn't notice any considerable improvement. I'm just worried that the noise might affect the PQ.

DB4
dish 811

****Note to anyone who reads this post. Learn from my mistake here. For months I had my dist amp 10 feet from the receiver. As I was experimenting, I moved the amp to a middle location of the 100' run at my side door and voila, all channels were locked in smoothly. I believe I was overdriving the signal being so close to the receiver. Anyways....new to this stuff, so I guess I'll learn as I go along.

Thanks for any advice you may have.

It's almost always a bad idea. One amplifies the noise created by the other. The probable reason moving the amp worked better was it amplified a better quality signal. You might want to try a preamp instead. The amplifier section is mounted very close to the antenna and amplifies the signal before it gets degraded by line loss. Good preamps like the 7775 and 7777 are less noisy than the typical distribution amp. With so many stations moving back to VHF and the excellent reputation of the 7777, you might consider that.

Hi,
I live in the Washington DC area, I posted a similar question in that forum last week but got now responses.

I just built a HT in my basement and since it is projector based and I'm waiting for the new MPEG-4 receivers, I decided to forgo a satellite setup for now. I wanted OTA HD so I bought a LG-4200A & love it. This theater is in the basement, I hooked up the existing, old outdoor antenna with spotty results. So I picked up a Silver Sensor & kept in in the basement, not much better. I then ran the SS from my attic (1 story house) with much better results - I'm receiving all local channels - a couple of drop offs but I'll move the antenna around a bit to resolve it.

I am only about 5 miles from the local towers, so I feel pretty comfortable with my results. However I'd love to pick up Baltimore & Annapolis stations - they are 30 miles away (BTW, all these stations are UHF, like my locals). Antennaweb.org suggests a Medium Directional (red) antenna. I don't mind putting a new antenna on my outside pole (attached to our chimney) but my concern is the correct antenna. I've heard people talk about getting too powerful of an antenna - any happy medium?

Thanks,
Bob

With so many stations moving back to VHF...Although predictions had called for many if not most stations to go back to VHF on shutdown, Round 1 elections indicate that, surprisingly, many if not most are staying UHF. For example, out of the 22 stations in Massachusetts, only 2 are going to VHF. And of all the stations in the DC, Richmond, Charlottesville, Virginia areas that I pull in, I've seen only 2 as well that have elected VHF. As one chief engineer advised, the decision to stay UHF is due to cost.

This is a big relief to all of us in fringe areas who invested time and money -- to say nothing of blood sweat and tears -- in a UHF system and we basically no longer worry about shutdown.

Hi,
I live in the Washington DC area, I posted a similar question in that forum last week but got now responses.

I just built a HT in my basement and since it is projector based and I'm waiting for the new MPEG-4 receivers, I decided to forgo a satellite setup for now. I wanted OTA HD so I bought a LG-4200A & love it. This theater is in the basement, I hooked up the existing, old outdoor antenna with spotty results. So I picked up a Silver Sensor & kept in in the basement, not much better. I then ran the SS from my attic (1 story house) with much better results - I'm receiving all local channels - a couple of drop offs but I'll move the antenna around a bit to resolve it.

I am only about 5 miles from the local towers, so I feel pretty comfortable with my results. However I'd love to pick up Baltimore & Annapolis stations - they are 30 miles away (BTW, all these stations are UHF, like my locals). Antennaweb.org suggests a Medium Directional (red) antenna. I don't mind putting a new antenna on my outside pole (attached to our chimney) but my concern is the correct antenna. I've heard people talk about getting too powerful of an antenna - any happy medium?

Thanks,
Bob

Yes, the www.antennasdirect. com DB4 4 BAY BOWTIE

Just got HD thru E*. I have their 811 receiver and want to get OTA HD. I'm in Maine, and I'm about 33-35 miles away from the towers which are north of my location. Any recommendation for an indoor, attic mounted antenna? I've read thru numerous posts and I know of the Silver Sensor but I haven't read about anyone trying to mount it or leave it up in an attic.....

I'll have to run a cable about 40 feet to get to the receiver from my attic.


* yellow - uhf WMEA-DT 45.1 PBS BIDDEFORD ME 295° 13.2 45
* yellow - uhf WCSH-DT 6.1 NBC PORTLAND ME 2° 33.7 44
* green - uhf WMTW-DT 46.1 ABC POLAND SPRING ME 357° 33.6 46
* lt green - uhf WGME-DT 13.1 CBS PORTLAND ME 20° 37.3 38

Thanks all

Just got HD thru E*. I have their 811 receiver and want to get OTA HD. I'm in Maine, and I'm about 33-35 miles away from the towers which are north of my location. Any recommendation for an indoor, attic mounted antenna? I've read thru numerous posts and I know of the Silver Sensor but I haven't read about anyone trying to mount it or leave it up in an attic.....

I'll have to run a cable about 40 feet to get to the receiver from my attic.


* yellow - uhf WMEA-DT 45.1 PBS BIDDEFORD ME 295° 13.2 45
* yellow - uhf WCSH-DT 6.1 NBC PORTLAND ME 2° 33.7 44
* green - uhf WMTW-DT 46.1 ABC POLAND SPRING ME 357° 33.6 46
* lt green - uhf WGME-DT 13.1 CBS PORTLAND ME 20° 37.3 38

Thanks all

With the differences in antenna location, you may need to go with a 4 or 8 bay bowtie outside on a rotor. Good Luck if you decide on the attic install

Does anyone think there will be any benefit to using a pre-amp with dist amp on the same line? Is there a chance of overload? I am 36 miles from my antenna farms. I recently relocated my antenna to the roof do to tree leaving and weak signals, and I am now running about 100 ft of rg6 up to the roof. I get all my stations locked in at about 69% and up most of the time. Also, Stark Electronics is in my hometown, so I could go with the CM 7775 and return if I didn't notice any considerable improvement. I'm just worried that the noise might affect the PQ.

DB4
dish 811

****Note to anyone who reads this post. Learn from my mistake here. For months I had my dist amp 10 feet from the receiver. As I was experimenting, I moved the amp to a middle location of the 100' run at my side door and voila, all channels were locked in smoothly. I believe I was overdriving the signal being so close to the receiver. Anyways....new to this stuff, so I guess I'll learn as I go along.

Thanks for any advice you may have.

I doubt as close in as you are it would help any. You could try using the 7775 alone at the antenna but with moderately high signal levels (which you most likely have at that distance) it probably won't matter much and it's even possible that the 7775 could overload if you have any stations that are even closer.
The 7775 has enough gain (assuming it doesn't overload) that no further amplification would likely be necessary or helpful.

To answer your original question fully, though, there *are* situations in which a line amp used at or near the receiver can be helpful if using a low/ moderate gain (say 20db or less) preamp at the antenna. This is the situation I currently have (20 db LNA at antenna, CM 3042 line amp inside). It can help to overcome the inherent noise level of the receiver and voltage loss in the line. See http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-TV-DX.html

FYI: Actual MEASUREMENTS of Antenna Gain, VSWR and Gain Patterns
for several of the most popular indoor and outdoor antennas are now available in a paper
Kerry Cozad (Dielectric Communications) presented at PBS 2005 Technology Conference.

The fol. link has more information and also includes the Excel Spreadsheet extracted
from the presentation, which contains just the VHF and UHF Gain curves:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/3476.html?1118216319

Note how well the CM-4228 works, not only in the UHF band,
but also providing 8-9 dBd gain in the upper VHF band (CH7-13) and 2 dBd for CH2-6.

A new Hardware thread was started summarizing links for many antenna manufacturers
and associated discussion topics. Check it out:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5728945#post5728945

Re. Overload Calculations, including effect of Distribution Amp.

I posted an Excel Spreadsheet "DTV Fade Margin Calc Rev B" at bottom of this post:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2846.html?1112095186
It can be used to perform "what if" calculations, including overload calculations.

If you aren't up to running RADIO MOBILE Propagation Prediction software,
you can use a simple Line-Of-Sight calculator to determine Path Loss,
and then throw in an estimate for Diffraction Loss (10-20 dB may be "typical")
to get you in the ballpark, depending on your local terrain.

Given the loss inside an attic, I doubt that there is such a thing as "too" much antenna gain.
On the other hand, the higher gain antennas are more difficult to point in the desired
direction and have narrower beamwidths if you have to cover different directions.

Even if it turns out you need to attenuate the signal even more than your downlead,
Radio Shack has an inexpensive variable RF attenuator that you can tweak to minimize overload.

I finally mounted my Silver Sensor clone antenna(which came with the ATI HDTV Wonder) outside the house; now all my signals from Detroit are in the 82-95 % range. It used to fluctuate all the time inside the house eventhough it was next to the window and as high as possible.

However, I noticed a little loss in quality on all stations(not too much but noticeable from before)after switching from a 25ft Monster RG6 indoor coax cable to a burial-grade 50ft RCA RG6 outdoor cable. Is it because of the length? I assumed all RG6 cables are similar....

All suggestions welcome.

It's not possible to get a little loss in picture quality with digital TV by changing the coax between the antenna and the tuner. It's your imagination. As long as the signal is good enough to keep the reception from breaking up, picture results will be identical.

Why are you getting a new antenna? Is the old one not working well? HD uses the exact same frequencies as analog, so if you're getting good UHF (almost all your digital stations use UHF) reception now, you already have what you need.

The 4228 isn't a bad choice for a fixed install (i.e. not with a rotor) but I think the 4221 might be a slightly better choice. While most of your stations are at 162-163 degrees, a few are off-axis enough that the 4228 might be a touch too directional to get a good signal.

35-40 miles isn't "way out." I'm "way out" at 75 miles, and I still get good reception a lot of the time. At 40 miles, any quality "fringe" UHF/VHF antenna should work great. I used a Winegard HD7084P on my roof for a couple of years (single story) and anything inside of 50 miles was easy to get, in spite of my being below average grade and blocked by trees.

I'd caution against getting the preamplifier until after the antenna is up - they solve one very specific problem - weak signal (snow on analogs) - but can cause lots of problems if that very specific problem isn't your issue (and it probably won't be.)

As for power for a rotor - they use a special three-strand cable from the outdoor box to the indoor unit that supplies the power and controls the rotor - no need for electricity outside.

Will the CM 4228 UHF 8 bay bowtie also get VHF stations. Our most watched station is Channel 8. (8.1 digital). Also, can someone explain "gain" to me. sorry for such a basic question, but I'm starting from nothing. Thanks for all the input. I'm beginning to feel hopeful. My husband is hoping I can get all this done before football season. He's drooling at the thought of football on HD. Thanks again!

Will the CM 4228 UHF 8 bay bowtie also get VHF stations. Our most watched station is Channel 8. (8.1 digital). Also, can someone explain "gain" to me. sorry for such a basic question, but I'm starting from nothing. Thanks for all the input. I'm beginning to feel hopeful. My husband is hoping I can get all this done before football season. He's drooling at the thought of football on HD. Thanks again!


If you look at the message from holl_ands you wil see:-
"Note how well the CM-4228 works, not only in the UHF band,
but also providing 8-9 dBd gain in the upper VHF band (CH7-13) and 2 dBd for CH2-6"

So you get 8dB of gain from the 4228 on channel 8 which is pretty good. How far away is you station? I get channel 11, 32 miles away off the side of my 4228!

Peter

Will the CM 4228 UHF 8 bay bowtie also get VHF stations. Our most watched station is Channel 8. (8.1 digital). Also, can someone explain "gain" to me. sorry for such a basic question, but I'm starting from nothing. Thanks for all the input. I'm beginning to feel hopeful. My husband is hoping I can get all this done before football season. He's drooling at the thought of football on HD. Thanks again!

The 4228 does pretty well for 9-13 but 8 and lower may require a different antenna. Also, "digital 8.1" may actually be a uhf channel as the true digital channel will be different than the "virtual" channel which is typically the same as the analog. Go to www.antennaweb.org or http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp
for info on the stations in your area.

Gain is simply how much signal will be produced by the antenna as referenced either to a simple dipole (dbd) or a so-called "isotropic radiator" (dbi). Dbd is typically around 2 db lower than numbers quoted in dbi.

My constant advice to anyone new to digital television, but living in a fringe area, is run don't walk to your computer and over the Internet order a 4228, and try it in the attic. That antenna solidly pulls in UHF digital stations at tremendous distances for me and it even solidly pulls in Channels 7 and 9 analog at equally amazing distances. But in my case a rotor (CM) & a dist. amp. (3044) are a must. I own no stock in CM but am just a happy customer.

My constant advice to anyone new to digital television, but living in a fringe area, is run don't walk to your computer and over the Internet order a 4228, and try it in the attic. That antenna solidly pulls in UHF digital stations at tremendous distances for me and it even solidly pulls in Channels 7 and 9 analog at equally amazing distances. But in my case a rotor (CM) & a dist. amp. (3044) are a must. I own no stock in CM but am just a happy customer.

My constant advice to everyone who buys a 4228 is not to use a rotor with it outdoors without a load bearing. The 4228 has phenomenal wind load.

I totally agree with reg and not only that but I would say ANY antenna outdoors (W or WO a rotor) needs to be installed as if it were a 4228 having a wind load factor to about the 50th power. Of course I also say try that attic first and perhaps avoid any environmental problems from the start.

Will the CM 4228 UHF 8 bay bowtie also get VHF stations. Our most watched station is Channel 8. (8.1 digital). Also, can someone explain "gain" to me. sorry for such a basic question, but I'm starting from nothing. Thanks for all the input. I'm beginning to feel hopeful. My husband is hoping I can get all this done before football season. He's drooling at the thought of football on HD. Thanks again!
Rodoug,

Three of your stations have filed to remain VHF when analog goes away. I know you watch WFAA (ABC) and KTVT (CBS). The 3rd VHF station is KERA (PBS). Almost all of your stations are down on Cedar Hill, just east of Estes Park along Rt 67, regardless of where they are licensed to. (Ft Worth, Dallas, Garland, Arlington, etc.)

KLDT-DT (ch55 analog) is about 9 miles from you a little more east of Cedar Hill. Their tansmitter is probably north of Coppel up by the county line and just west of the Stemmons freeway. That's an independent station that you probably wouldn't watch but it might carry some sports (their Houston station does). So if you and hubby watch sports you might want that station too. The good news is that even off the backside of their antenna and a little off-angle from Cedar Hill on your antenna, you are going to get them with an outside antenna.

The other station that is off-axis for you is KMPX (ch29 analog) another independent. Lieberman broadcasting in Houston is infomercial by day and a Hispanic independent at night. I don't know what they do in the Dallas market.

As for antenna recommendations: I'd try the one you have now unless there is something wrong with it. You mentioned that you are going to feed 3 to 4 TV's. If they are all digital 'capable' TV's then the 4228 is a fine antenna, as everyone has said, even for the three VHF stations.

However, if you plan on watching analog ch4 (FOX) or analog ch5 (NBC) on any set that cannot receive the digital channels, then the 4228 is a No-Go antenna for you. (an older TV in the kid's room, kitchen, or garage?) Look around at Fry's or Lowe's for a Channel Master 3016 or a Channel Master 5646 antenna. (It's the same antenna, just in different boxes.) This antenna will most likely get all of the stations at Cedar Hill, analog or digital, when it is outside above your roof. If you really want to through some money at the problem, I can recommend some other, much larger, antennas.

If you want to see the stations another way, click on this -
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=33%2E09881&longitude=%2D097%2E09465&magnetic_north=0&range=60&sort=channel&show_expired=False&show_construction=False&show_analog=True&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

The guy that does this website does a great job of displaying the station info for you. The 'Transmitter Antenna' column shows the stations antenna pattern. (How much signal they put out in any direction.) The center is them and the red line points to you.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

ps. Gain is like horsepower in your truck. You alway want lots more right up to the point where you can't keep the shiny-side up any more. With antennas there are few situations where you can have too much Gain. Amplifiers, on the other hand, can have too much horsepower and very well put you in the ditch wondering 'How did I get here?' :eek:

Does anyone have any advice for the horizontal stacking of 2 DB4'S? I get all my stations now at 36 mi, but I'd like to get a little more gain with a couple of the weaker ones. My plan is to run both on long j-poles and just leave a very small gap in between the antennas. I will also be using a CM7777 with the setup. Also, can one antenna be pointed in another direction and then combined? Can I run a small VHF on top of one of the DB4' through the cm7777?

Any advice for my little project would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Blackie

Rodoug,

Three of your stations have filed to remain VHF when analog goes away. I know you watch WFAA (ABC) and KTVT (CBS). The 3rd VHF station is KERA (PBS). Almost all of your stations are down on Cedar Hill, just east of Estes Park along Rt 67, regardless of where they are licensed to. (Ft Worth, Dallas, Garland, Arlington, etc.)

KLDT-DT (ch55 analog) is about 9 miles from you a little more east of Cedar Hill. Their tansmitter is probably north of Coppel up by the county line and just west of the Stemmons freeway. That's an independent station that you probably wouldn't watch but it might carry some sports (their Houston station does). So if you and hubby watch sports you might want that station too. The good news is that even off the backside of their antenna and a little off-angle from Cedar Hill on your antenna, you are going to get them with an outside antenna.

The other station that is off-axis for you is KMPX (ch29 analog) another independent. Lieberman broadcasting in Houston is infomercial by day and a Hispanic independent at night. I don't know what they do in the Dallas market.

As for antenna recommendations: I'd try the one you have now unless there is something wrong with it. You mentioned that you are going to feed 3 to 4 TV's. If they are all digital 'capable' TV's then the 4228 is a fine antenna, as everyone has said, even for the three VHF stations.

However, if you plan on watching analog ch4 (FOX) or analog ch5 (NBC) on any set that cannot receive the digital channels, then the 4228 is a No-Go antenna for you. (an older TV in the kid's room, kitchen, or garage?) Look around at Fry's or Lowe's for a Channel Master 3016 or a Channel Master 5646 antenna. (It's the same antenna, just in different boxes.) This antenna will most likely get all of the stations at Cedar Hill, analog or digital, when it is outside above your roof. If you really want to through some money at the problem, I can recommend some other, much larger, antennas.

If you want to see the stations another way, click on this -
http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=33%2E09881&longitude=%2D097%2E09465&magnetic_north=0&range=60&sort=channel&show_expired=False&show_construction=False&show_analog=True&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

The guy that does this website does a great job of displaying the station info for you. The 'Transmitter Antenna' column shows the stations antenna pattern. (How much signal they put out in any direction.) The center is them and the red line points to you.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

ps. Gain is like horsepower in your truck. You alway want lots more right up to the point where you can't keep the shiny-side up any more. With antennas there are few situations where you can have too much Gain. Amplifiers, on the other hand, can have too much horsepower and very well put you in the ditch wondering 'How did I get here?' :eek:


i tried the address that you have listed here:
i typed in my lat. as 26.602557 and long. as 081.625689 ( from the finder program also ) and i get no stations showing at all! am i doing something wrong?

Longitude needs to be -081.

Longitude needs to be -081.

thanks that did the trick! i thought that i had tried that already but i guess i didn't
:)

Does anyone have any advice for the horizontal stacking of 2 DB4'S? I get all my stations now at 36 mi, but I'd like to get a little more gain with a couple of the weaker ones. My plan is to run both on long j-poles and just leave a very small gap in between the antennas. I will also be using a CM7777 with the setup. Also, can one antenna be pointed in another direction and then combined? Can I run a small VHF on top of one of the DB4' through the cm7777?

Any advice for my little project would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Blackie

2 horizontally stacked DB4's = one DB8.

I guess you could still do it though if you want.

You'll likely run into problems if you try to point one in a different direction. Make sure the coax is exactly the same length up to the combiner. As far as spacing is concerned, you could probably start at about the same distance as the DB8. ;)

It shouldn't be a problem to add a VHF antenna, just space adequately from the bowtie (48 inches should be enough for high band 7-13, probably need at least 60 for low band 2-6). The CM 7777 has separate vhf and uhf inputs and an internal diplexer to make it easy for you; make sure the internal switch is set correctly.

cpcat & blackie,

Combining two antennas with a resistive splitter/combiner offers no gain increase. In fact, you loose about a dB or so. You do still gain horizontal directionality though. The CM4228 uses phase combining to combine the two sides. That is why the CM4228 has more measured gain than the DB-8 or the Winegard PR-8800. Just something to keep in mind if you are expecting a huge signal increase.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

cpcat & blackie,

Combining two antennas with a resistive splitter/combiner offers no gain increase. In fact, you loose about a dB or so. You do still gain horizontal directionality though. The CM4228 uses phase combining to combine the two sides. That is why the CM4228 has more measured gain than the DB-8 or the Winegard PR-8800. Just something to keep in mind if you are expecting a huge signal increase.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

Narrowing the beamwidth probably is the most important factor in why horizontal stacking increases antenna performance. Gain is likely increased as well depending on the application. Using a stripline combiner certainly *does* increase gain whether stacking horizontally or vertically. You can debate how much gain is increased using a resistive splitter. Most are 3.5 - 4 db through- loss which indicates 3db for the split (50%) plus insertion loss. This would suggest about .5-1.0 db insertion loss when used as a combiner, which gives 1-2db gain increase under optimal circumstances when stacking.

Using a stripline combiner (about .2-.3 db insertion loss max) gain increase would approach 3db under optimal conditions.

When you stack antennas, you are doing more than simply increasing gain.
MORE IMPORTANTLY, you are spreading out the antenna structure so that it has a
better chance of at least one part of the antenna NOT being in a multipath null.

This is one of the primary advantages of the CM-4228 8-Bay Bowtie. It spreads out
the individual bowtie elements in BOTH the horizontal and vertical directions.

One aspect of stacking antennas vertically is the ability to have a null directed towards the ground,
which reduces the man-made noise levels if the feed lines are phased correctly for a particularly bad channel.
Unfortunately, it is difficult to direct the null for all desired frequencies,
so these kind of offset or phased combiners are more common for fixed frequency Ham radio.
(unless you are clever enough to build an adaptive antenna array).

One important aspect of horizontal stacking is the likelihood that the combined
antenna pattern will have very deep nulls on either side of the main beam,
which can be steered in the direction of strong multipath or other interference as
you hunt around for the "best" direction.
Of course, this requires a rotator (unless you can build an adaptive antenna array).

So I would vote for horizontal stacking of the already vertically stacked 4-Bay or 8-Bay Bowtie antennas.

Hi all, I have a question about antenna placement. I live south of Boston in a ground floor apartment that has only southern-facing windows, and all the stations I am trying to receive are pretty much directly north of me. I'm only 15 miles from the transmitters, so I would think that I could still pull in all the stations, but I'm having a lot of trouble getting a steady signal. Right now I'm using an indoor antenna pointed north. What would be the best place/direction to put an antenna? I'd like to stay indoor if possible, but outdoor is an option. Should I point the antenna north even though it's pointed at a wall, or should I point it south, out the window? Which direction should I point it if I mount it outside? I've tried omnidirectional indoor antennas with no luck - is there an outdoor omni option that I could try, or should I stick with directional? Any advice here would be great. Right now I can pull in a couple stations pretty solidly but most are still fluctuating b/w 15-40%. Thanks very much!

Everyone says higher is better, but in my case I got a better signal meter reading from the ground.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5751247#post5751247

Hi all, I have a question about antenna placement. I live south of Boston in a ground floor apartment that has only southern-facing windows, and all the stations I am trying to receive are pretty much directly north of me. I'm only 15 miles from the transmitters, so I would think that I could still pull in all the stations, but I'm having a lot of trouble getting a steady signal. Right now I'm using an indoor antenna pointed north. What would be the best place/direction to put an antenna? I'd like to stay indoor if possible, but outdoor is an option. Should I point the antenna north even though it's pointed at a wall, or should I point it south, out the window? Which direction should I point it if I mount it outside? I've tried omnidirectional indoor antennas with no luck - is there an outdoor omni option that I could try, or should I stick with directional? Any advice here would be great. Right now I can pull in a couple stations pretty solidly but most are still fluctuating b/w 15-40%. Thanks very much!

It's possible you could catch a signal "bouncing" off something by pointing out the window but most likely you'll have better luck pointing towards the direction of the transmitters.

If you've tried various positions/locations indoors to no avail, I'd start with a CM 4221 outside as high as possible pointed toward the transmitters. You could also try the 4221 indoors just for fun first, but, even it it works, you may or may not be willing to keep it there for aesthetic reasons unless you can hide it in a closet where it still works or something of that nature. You shouldn't need a preamp at that distance. All the digitals from Boston are UHF so that should do it unless you want the analogs.

Found a Terk TV20 for great price. Their new packaging empahsizes HD reception but this unit appears to be the same at 60% discount. Says up to 40db adjustable gain on the indoor dowtie. Any thoughts on if this is a good move or do i need to go after a Yagi or Silver Star? Thanks

Found a Terk TV20 for great price. Their new packaging empahsizes HD reception but this unit appears to be the same at 60% discount. Says up to 40db adjustable gain on the indoor dowtie. Any thoughts on if this is a good move or do i need to go after a Yagi or Silver Star? Thanks

Let's hope you get a Silver Sensor instead of a Silver Star. Just kidding..The SS is the best indoor antenna on the market.

Been browsing- what kind of receiver would you need to plug antanna to?

Current set up for TV viewing:
Charter Cable TV feeds old VCR
VCR acting as current Tuner

Composite eed from VCR thru Denon 3803 Receiver
and Component feed to to NEC plasma
(NEC is commercial verision - has no tuner)

Many Thanks...

Well, I ended up picking up a cheap Philips antenna at Walmart for about 34 bucks. It's the MANT510 model. I hooked it up in my attic and I get decent reception - all channels are 75% and up for strength. What I'm wondering is if a DB4 or CM4228 would be noticeably better than the antenna I bought. Thoughts? I wouldn't mind trying to pull in a few more stations and I think the DB4/CM4228 would do that for me. All towers are about 34+ miles away too. I posted antennaweb info in another post.

pjo

pjo should run, not walk, back to Walmart and get a refund on that Phillips antenna (after going online to Warren Electronics and ordering and receiving a CM 4221 for $20 plus S&H.) I guarantee he will get better digital reception.

Hm I can't post a link....I'd like to post the pics of my antenna web results....

I'd like to start off by saying this is a great forum and I'm glad to have found it. Can you guys recommend me an antenna that will offer a good clean signal considering the installation goes well. I'd like to keep the antenna as small as possible to avoid an eyesore. I'm gearing toward a samsung t351 off ebay for my tuner since my toshiba dlt doesnt have it built in. If anyone knows a decent affordable tuner and would like to recommend it I'd like to hear about it. Thanks.

* yellow - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 175° 16.7 9
* yellow - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 173° 16.7 41
* yellow - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 173° 16.7 40
* yellow - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 170° 17.1 19
* yellow - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 UPN FORT WORTH TX 172° 19.6 18
* yellow - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 172° 19.6 48
* yellow - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 PAX ARLINGTON TX 174° 16.3 42
* yellow - uhf KMPX-DT 30.1 DAY DECATUR TX 40° 4.4 30
* yellow - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 173° 16.3 24
* yellow - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 172° 19.6 43
* yellow - uhf KDTX-DT 58.1 TBN DALLAS TX 173° 16.3 45
* yellow - uhf KERA-DT 14.1 PBS DALLAS TX 170° 17.1 14
* yellow - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 173° 16.4 51
* yellow - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 WB DALLAS TX 172° 19.6 32
* yellow - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 175° 16.7 35
* lt green - uhf KLDT-DT 55.1 IND LAKE DALLAS TX 353° 12.4 54
* red - uhf KDFI-DT 27.1 IND DALLAS TX 172° 19.6 36


These are the digital stations off antennaweb.

eyedol,

You mention eyesore, so I presume that you are going to mount it outside. Try a Channel Master 3016 that you can get at Lowe's or Fry's locally. They also sell larger VHF/UHF antennas. The Winegard HD7210 also works well at that distance but I have yet to see them sold in a local store.

See my post to rodoug @ www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5733534&&#post5733534 for details on the DFW area. It looks like you both live in the same neck of the woods.

Bob Chase
KHWB

Narrowing the beamwidth probably is the most important factor in why horizontal stacking increases antenna performance. Gain is likely increased as well depending on the application. Using a stripline combiner certainly *does* increase gain whether stacking horizontally or vertically. You can debate how much gain is increased using a resistive splitter. Most are 3.5 - 4 db through- loss which indicates 3db for the split (50%) plus insertion loss. This would suggest about .5-1.0 db insertion loss when used as a combiner, which gives 1-2db gain increase under optimal circumstances when stacking.

Using a stripline combiner (about .2-.3 db insertion loss max) gain increase would approach 3db under optimal conditions.
CPCAT,
Actually, that would be 1 to 2 dB loss for a resistive combiner under optimal conditions.
Stripline combiners (hybrids) are frequency specific and not available to the general public - and that is who we are talking to on this forum. So, yes, while hybrids actually do give a net gain for combined antennas, would people who ask qustions on this forum actually go out and order a $300 device from Micro-Circuits or some other RF manufactuer that only works on part of the UHF TV spectrum?

Bob C

Lindsay, a company in Canada, makes both 2-Port and 4-Port stripline couplers with only 0.2 dB of insertion loss per port:
http://www.lindsayelec.com/antenna/commercial.catv/v-u-combiners.html
They are specifically designed for the UHF band, including F-type connectors.
U.S. supplier is www.signalvision.com and cost is somewhat over $100.

See the fol. posts for specs, prices, user results and even pictures of them in action:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/3272.html#POST18485
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2780.html#POST15854
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2479.html#POST13944

cpcat & blackie,

Combining two antennas with a resistive splitter/combiner offers no gain increase. In fact, you loose about a dB or so. You do still gain horizontal directionality though. The CM4228 uses phase combining to combine the two sides. That is why the CM4228 has more measured gain than the DB-8 or the Winegard PR-8800. Just something to keep in mind if you are expecting a huge signal increase.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

Bob: Did you really mean to say "resistive" splitter/combiner?
I don't think I've ever seen that type of device for consumer TV use.
A true resistive 2-port device, such as the Mini-Circuits ZFRSC series, has an insertion loss of about 6 dB:
http://www.minicircuits.com/dg03-122.pdf
If such a device were used, it would always insert a loss of 6 dB per port, independent of the antenna direction, phasing and gain matching.
Hence 3 dB loss for stacked antennas under best of conditions.

Now if you mean the "hybrid" type splitter/combiner that is normally used for antenna and cable RF Splitter/Combiner jobs,
then you must consider whether the signals on the two combiner ports are equal strength and in-phase.

If the inputs to the 2-port hybrid are equal and in-phase (e.g. stacked antennas perfectly matched),
then the hybrid will coherently combine the two signals with only a minimal (typ 0.5 dB) loss on each port.
This results in about 2 dB gain for matched stacked antennas vs only one antenna.

If the inputs to the 2-port hybrid are NOT equal and in-phase (e.g. dissimilar antennas, slightly mis-aligned antennas or antennas in different directions),
then the hybrid will be unbalanced, resulting in the internal resistor dissipating roughly half of the input power from each port.
For slightly mis-matched antennas, this may result in minimal, if any net gain vs a single antenna.
For dissimilar antennas or antennas in different directions, each port will suffer the insertion loss in the hybrid, or typically about 3.5 dB +/- 0.5 dB.

The Lindsay Stripline 2-Port and 4-Port Couplers ALWAYS have 0.2 dB insertion loss on each port,
irrespective of the number of ports or whether the input signals are gain and phase matched.
As you can see from the numbers above, they are particularly useful when combining more than two antennas
(when the hybrid loss doubles) and when combining antennas pointed in different directions.

Of course, stacked antennas have advantages beyond just signal gain in combatting multipath and suppressing undesired signals, as I discussed in my earlier post on 12Jun05.

I'm gearing toward a samsung t351 off ebay for my tuner since my toshiba dlt doesnt have it built in. If anyone knows a decent affordable tuner and would like to recommend it I'd like to hear about it. Thanks.

* yellow - vhf WFAA-DT 8.1 ABC DALLAS TX 175° 16.7 9
* yellow - uhf KXAS-DT 5.1 NBC FORT WORTH TX 173° 16.7 41
* yellow - uhf KXTX-DT 40.1 TEL DALLAS TX 173° 16.7 40
* yellow - uhf KTVT-DT 11.1 CBS FORT WORTH TX 170° 17.1 19
* yellow - uhf KTXA-DT 21.1 UPN FORT WORTH TX 172° 19.6 18
* yellow - uhf KSTR-DT 49.1 UNI IRVING TX 172° 19.6 48
* yellow - uhf KPXD-DT 68.1 PAX ARLINGTON TX 174° 16.3 42
* yellow - uhf KMPX-DT 30.1 DAY DECATUR TX 40° 4.4 30
* yellow - uhf KUVN-DT 23.1 UNI GARLAND TX 173° 16.3 24
* yellow - uhf KDTN-DT 2.1 DAY DENTON TX 172° 19.6 43
* yellow - uhf KDTX-DT 58.1 TBN DALLAS TX 173° 16.3 45
* yellow - uhf KERA-DT 14.1 PBS DALLAS TX 170° 17.1 14
* yellow - uhf KFWD-DT 52.1 IND FORT WORTH TX 173° 16.4 51
* yellow - uhf KDAF-DT 33.1 WB DALLAS TX 172° 19.6 32
* yellow - uhf KDFW-DT 4.1 FOX DALLAS TX 175° 16.7 35
* lt green - uhf KLDT-DT 55.1 IND LAKE DALLAS TX 353° 12.4 54
* red - uhf KDFI-DT 27.1 IND DALLAS TX 172° 19.6 36


These are the digital stations off antennaweb.

The Channel Master 4221 should do just fine for most, if not all of those stations. KLDT will probably be a problem since it is the opposite direction, but at that distance, there's a chance that enough signal will "bleed through" the reflector screen to get you a solid signal.

CPCAT,
Actually, that would be 1 to 2 dB loss for a resistive combiner under optimal conditions.
Stripline combiners (hybrids) are frequency specific and not available to the general public - and that is who we are talking to on this forum. So, yes, while hybrids actually do give a net gain for combined antennas, would people who ask qustions on this forum actually go out and order a $300 device from Micro-Circuits or some other RF manufactuer that only works on part of the UHF TV spectrum?

Bob C

I disagree with the numbers for loss you are giving. They aren't consistent with my experience either. How did you calculate that? Using a stripline combiner from Lindsay (see Holland's post above for links and pricing), I"ve noted a very small improvement in overall performance compared to using a splitter. This has been reproducible on multiple occasions, but it's not a very large difference. That's inconsistent with one method producing 2-3db gain and the other 2db loss irrespective of narrowed beamwidth.

Stripline low-loss combiners are also available from Triax in the U.K. Lindsay is closer and easier though. They also make a .5db loss combiner for VHF which I use. Here's a pic of the Lindsay UHF stripline combiner (combining the top two antennas); the VHF model combines the high band antennas below.

Here's another closer up. The combiner is in the back of the picture (long and rectangular in shape).

Last time I checked, Channel Master has a simple antenna joiner that they claimed had half a dB of loss, for under $20, and I'm sure Winegard had a similar product available.

I have to admit that in spite of having adequate budgets to deal with lots of combining situations, I almost never have to deal with extremely weak signals, as I have about fifteen local DTV transmitters, and generally need only to be concerned with minimizing multipath on relatively strong signals and filtering off undesired signals when integrating them into a common distribution trunkline.

CM4228 Owners

I was wondering if you folks could tell me how far away this thing can pull in signals from. It's listed as having a 60 mile range but was wondering if there have been folks attaining signals from even further out.....

Thanks all...

AntAltMike: You must mean the 0.5 dB insertion loss in the CM-0549 UHF/VHF-FM Antenna Joiner.
It uses bandpass filter techniques (like a TV/SAT Diplexer) to combine antennas
in two DIFFERENT frequency bands vice stacked antennas in same band:
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmjoiner.htm

When looking at specs for wideband hybrid splitter/combiners (aka RF Splitter),
if they say 0.5 dB insertion loss, that is only when the two inputs are equal and in-phase.
When they are not, then the insertion loss is nominally 3.5 dB,
as cited in the above website for the CM-0538 All Band Coupler.

I was wondering if you folks could tell me how far away this thing can pull in signals from. It's listed as having a 60 mile range but was wondering if there have been folks attaining signals from even further out.....

Under ideal circumstances, 150 miles is possible. But that means a mountaintop transmitter, and no mountains in the way...

There are just too many factors involved in reception to state a realistic range for an antenna. That said, many have had success at 60 miles with a 4228 under "normal" conditions.

CM4228 Owners...how far away this thing can pull in signals from.
Thanks all...All but two of the stations I receive are just over 70 miles away. Depending on the help I get from atmospheric conditions, I get anywhere from a great signal to not enough for a lock.

Also, FWIW, antennas don't "pull in signals". They generate an electrical voltage from whatever signal is exciting the elements. Distant reception has much more to do with factors other than the antenna.

Can anyone give me an idea of the strength of a rotor and are some more highly recommended? I currently have a 10' 1 1/4" mast mounted directly to the house. When I look at the large amount of channels available in the list from AntennaWeb, I am tempted to try one out. However, I am concerned about damage from wind, ice, etc. I went outside recently during a strong wind and watched the antenna. It swayed a bit but was very sound. I do not want to compromise the strength, but the increase in stations is tempting.

Thanks, Joe

Can anyone give me an idea of the strength of a rotor and are some more highly recommended? I currently have a 10' 1 1/4" mast mounted directly to the house. When I look at the large amount of channels available in the list from AntennaWeb, I am tempted to try one out. However, I am concerned about damage from wind, ice, etc. I went outside recently during a strong wind and watched the antenna. It swayed a bit but was very sound. I do not want to compromise the strength, but the increase in stations is tempting.I have a 4228 with a CM 9521 rotor, which CM says is their best, but I have them mounted in my attic. No way would I put them on my roof with the vicious winds common here.

If wind is a problem, go online and find a heavy duty rotor rated for about 400 or 500 lbs. that'll cost about $200 or $300. It will be well worth it.

CM4228 Owners
I was wondering if you folks could tell me how far away this thing can pull in signals from. It's listed as having a 60 mile range but was wondering if there have been folks attaining signals from even further out.....

My attic 4228 pulls in digital stations solid 7/24 at 125 miles and the 3,000 to 4,000 ft. Blue Ridge Mtns. are between me and the towers. Fortunately, I have a pretty high elevation. :cool:

AntAltMike: You must mean the 0.5 dB insertion loss in the CM-0549 UHF/VHF-FM Antenna Joiner....

When they are not, then the insertion loss is nominally 3.5 dB,
as cited in the above website for the CM-0538 All Band Coupler.

But the figures you cite for the CM-0538 are the figures they give for its performance as a splitter. I have seen other, old Channel Master literature where they claim .5dB loss for this product when used as a combiner, without specifying that the signals be identical and in phase.

Blonder Tongue makes something called an "alternate channel coupler", ACC-2a, that combines two sets of signals that are not identical and splits them into two outputs with just 4dB of total loss in the VHF band, which means that the combiner loses .5dB and the splitter loses 3.5dB. The product works but sells for about $100. I've never broken one open to see how they do it, and I don't know of anyone else making the same product. Spectravision (now, On Command) and Lodgenet used to use them a lot to conserve signal power in hotel "loop" distribution systems.

For anyone who is looking at the Terk TV44 (new model from the Terk TV42) you might want to read this message and save your self some seconds. :) The Terk TV44 may work OK if you are close to 500KW and above stations, but it does nothing for the more wimpy stations at 18 miles.



I have been using a boom antenna in the attic for my HD Tivo and get all channels reliably except WSVN (7-1). It comes through most of the time, but at critical points in shows it locks up. Very annoying. Tivo says I’m getting a signal strength of 65 which is apparently not enough to give me a reliable picture. The other channels are in the 80-95 range and I see no problems.

Channel Freq Low Typical Peak

4-1 WFOR-DT 22 90 90 91
6-1 WTVJ-DT 31 90 90 92
7-1 WSVN-HD 8 66 68 68
10-1 WPLG-DT 9 82 82 84
17-1 WLRN-HD 20 95 95 95
33-1 WBFS-DT 32 90 90 92
39-1 WDZL-DT 19 88 90 91

The WSVN engineering debt. recommend I try a Terk antenna that clamps on the satellite dish so I installed a Terk TV-44 antenna last night. (The ad blurb says it installs in seconds… 1800 seconds later… I was done.)

As you see from the results below it didn’t help and in fact I got zero signal from WSVN! I tried rotating the antenna around the dish and still zero on both Fox & ABC !!!

Channel Freq Low Typical Peak
4-1 WFOR-DT 22 81 83 85
6-1 WTVJ-DT 31 74 77 78
7-1 WSVN-HD 8 0 0 0
10-1 WPLG-DT 9 0 0 0
17-1 WLRN-HD 20 10 19 35
29-1 WFKX-DT 28 68 70 70
33-1 WBFS-DT 32 74 75 78
39-1 WDZL-DT 19 74 76 78

At least I can now get Fox from Palm beach, but now there’s no ABC. So the Terk is going back!

Also, FWIW, antennas don't "pull in signals".

I guess that depends on your interpretation of how gain works. If you look at the radiation patterns for yagis, it certainly does look like the antenna is "pulling in" the signal: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/types.html

What I'm saying is, the transmitter pushes the signal. The receiving antenna doesn't pull it. The only "force" acting on the signal is the power from the transmitter. The higher the antenna gain, the more micro volts are sent down the feed line from whatever signal is reaching the antenna. The actual radio signal level is the same at the antenna no matter how much or how little gain the antenna has. So if the RF signal level at your place is 0, either because your too far away and the earth blocks the signal, or because something else blocks it, or because the atmosphere isn't reflecting it, etc., your antenna will generate no voltage. The antenna can't reach out and pull in a signal. It just sits there, attached to it's mast, waiting for a signal to reach it.

If you look at the radiation patterns for yagis, it certainly does look like the antenna is "pulling in" the signal...Sorry I missed this earlier. But, technically, the term "radiation pattern" only applies to the transmitter antenna. You must keep in mind that antenna design and performance is a two way thing. If a yagi antenna is used for two-way radio for example, then it has a directional radiation pattern when transmitting. When receiving, the same antennas gain pattern is similar, but it's not radiating. For reception, the graphs shows that the antenna will not produce much, if any, gain from directions outside of it's gain pattern.

AntAltMike: Perhaps the following description of the Magic-Tee Hybrid Transformer helps:
http://members.tripod.com/michaelgellis/magict.html

It describes how the Hybrid coherently adds two signals with minimal loss, but only when they are equal and in-phase.
When they are not matched, some of the unbalanced signal is dissipated in the Hybrid's internal resistor.

For a schematic of the older Winegard CC-787 coupler, look at Figure 9.
You'll see that it is a Magic-Tee Hybrid Transformer:
http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stackluge.html

I think that the Winegard quote above is about the ONLY RF Splitter/Combiner description that even comes close to the full truth when used in the "reverse" combiner mode.

As I said above, essentially all of the wide-band RF Splitter/Couplers on the market are the Hybrid type.
Exceptions would be the Lindsay and Triax Microstrip (aka Wilkinson) Couplers that only cover about an octave in the UHF band (470-860 MHz).
Other exceptions would be multiband VHF/UHF and selected channel "Antennas Joiners", that use bandpass filters to selectively merge two or more antennas.

When receiving, the same antennas gain pattern is similar, but it's not radiating.

Some branches of physics would beg to differ...

PLZ PEOPLE..NEED INPUT. i'M LOOKING AT PROPERT ABOUT 1 MILE CLOSER TO THE ANTENNAS. oNLY PROB IS THERE MIGHT BE 1 GOOD SIZED TREE RIGHT O TOP OF THE HOUSE. I KNOW THAT THIS HOUSES ELEVATION IS HIGHER FOR SURE. MY QUESTION IS..HOW DO YOU YOU KNOW IF I CAN STILL GET THE SIGANL EVEN THOUGH IM CLOSER?

[QUOTE=bobchase]Rodoug,

Three of your stations have filed to remain VHF when analog goes away. I know you watch WFAA (ABC) and KTVT (CBS). The 3rd VHF station is KERA (PBS). Almost all of your stations are down on Cedar Hill, just east of Estes Park along Rt 67, regardless of where they are licensed to. (Ft Worth, Dallas, Garland, Arlington, etc.)

KLDT-DT (ch55 analog) is about 9 miles from you a little more east of Cedar Hill. Their tansmitter is probably north of Coppel up by the county line and just west of the Stemmons freeway. That's an independent station that you probably wouldn't watch but it might carry some sports (their Houston station does). So if you and hubby watch sports you might want that station too. The good news is that even off the backside of their antenna and a little off-angle from Cedar Hill on your antenna, you are going to get them with an outside antenna.

The other station that is off-axis for you is KMPX (ch29 analog) another independent. Lieberman broadcasting in Houston is infomercial by day and a Hispanic independent at night. I don't know what they do in the Dallas market.

As for antenna recommendations: I'd try the one you have now unless there is something wrong with it. You mentioned that you are going to feed 3 to 4 TV's. If they are all digital 'capable' TV's then the 4228 is a fine antenna, as everyone has said, even for the three VHF stations.

However, if you plan on watching analog ch4 (FOX) or analog ch5 (NBC) on any set that cannot receive the digital channels, then the 4228 is a No-Go antenna for you. (an older TV in the kid's room, kitchen, or garage?) Look around at Fry's or Lowe's for a Channel Master 3016 or a Channel Master 5646 antenna. (It's the same antenna, just in different boxes.) This antenna will most likely get all of the stations at Cedar Hill, analog or digital, when it is outside above your roof. If you really want to through some money at the problem, I can recommend some other, much larger, antennas.


The guy that does this website does a great job of displaying the station info for you. The 'Transmitter Antenna' column shows the stations antenna pattern. (How much signal they put out in any direction.) The center is them and the red line points to you.

Bob Chase
KHWB-TV

ps. Gain is like horsepower in your truck. You alway want lots more right up to the point where you can't keep the shiny-side up any more. With antennas there are few situations where you can have too much Gain. Amplifiers, on the other hand, can have too much horsepower and very well put you in the ditch wondering 'How did I get here?'


Thanks Tons!!!! You hit the nail on the head. We will have at least one analog TV and we do watch Ch 4 and 5. We are going to try the CM3016/5646 and see what we get. We might as well try the less expensive option first. You all have been a big help!!! Thanks again.

I live in las cruces,nm which is about 40-45 miles away from the transmitters in el paso, tx. I am trying to pull in cbs hd (kdbc) which is broadcasting at 290kw with a silver sensor. I am not able to get any signal but the local fox is broadcasting from the same location at about 360kw and i can get a 70-80% signal. I was just wondering if i needed a better antenna for the silver sensor or is this transmitter just in the wrong spot and thats why im not able to pull it in. Thank you for all your help!

Iam trying to pull in cbs hd (kdbc) which is broadcasting at 290kw with a silver sensor. I am not able to get any signal but the local fox is broadcasting from the same location at about 360kw and i can get a 70-80% signal.

Are you sure KDBC is broadcasting at 290kw? I searched on the FCC database, and while they have an application for 290kw, they are currently listed as using an STA with 21.6kw, directionally biased. While their antenna is rather high about average terrain, I wouldn't expect the Silver Sensor to get a solid signal at 45 miles. You *might* get a better signal with a larger antenna, but only you can decide if it's worth the money for what should be a temporary (maximum 12 months) problem.

Well, I hope someone can help me out. I've been doing a lot of reading here but this is my first attempt at OTA antenna installation.

I've ordered a CM 4228 and CM 7777 antenna/preamp and they are scheduled to arrive Wednesday. I'm about 50 miles north of Mt. Wilson in the LA metro (zip 93523). I already have my DirecTV 18"x20" oval dish mounted, so I went with the Winegard DS-1111 s-pipe mount so I could attach the antenna to the dish without having to drill more holes. Because of where I live, I am limited to attaching through the fascias along the edge of the roof, which is how my dish is secured now. This eliminates roof and wall mounting options. The house doesn't have an attic, and at 50 miles I don't think an attic mount would work anyway.

The more I look at the installation sheets for the antenna and the mount, the more I think the DS-1111 mount is not going to work. It appears that the reflector screen on the antenna will get in the way of the curve in the s-pipe. Also, I'm not sure what the wind load will be on the antenna (and it is damn windy here) so it might be a good idea to have the antenna mounted separately. But again, because of my housing situation, I would rather only have one set of screws into the house.

If it turns out I'll have to try a different mount, what can I look at? The dish is reasonably secure, but it just doesn't seem possible with the s-pipe. Also, both the dish and the antenna will almost be facing in the same direction. My house also faces south, and since I have to install on the back side of the house I might have to point it right at the roof. Actually, the dish is mounted on the west side fascia, so I thought if I put the antenna out there and pointed it south, it would have a clearer shot.

Any suggestions?

I thought some more, and it may be more visually/structurally appealing to try a different antenna instead of a different mount. I'm still interested in alternative mounting suggestions, but if anyone has a suggestion on an outdoor antenna that can be used reliably at a 50 mile range (with the 7777 preamp) I'd appreciate that too!

I tried my Silver Sensor inside without a preamp and I can't get squat, even on the 1 MW channels.

Have you considered putting a tube extension on the DS-1111 to get the CM-4228 higher?

You also might want to look at the fol. DS-1000 mount with a CM-4228 plus CM-4221.
I would be concerned about overloading the mount, esp. in high winds but Winegard website
shows the bigger and heavier (and lower performing) SquareShooter being used with this mount:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/3272.html?1118912557

Where's a Mechanical Engineer when you need one????

I'm about 50 miles north of Mt. Wilson in the LA metro (zip 93523).


Normal mileage estimates don't mean squat with Mount Wilson. Their transmitters are so high people have line-of-sight from 100+ miles away. As long as you're not severely blocked locally, you shouldn't have any trouble with an indoor antenna.

Where's a Mechanical Engineer when you need one????

I'm an aero guy, but this antenna stuff is new to me! I don't think NASA Dryden will let me use their wind tunnel to calculate a drag coefficient on a CM4228. :)

I was concerned about the distance because antennaweb doesn't even bring up the DT stations for my ZIP/address. I thought it was maybe some weird topographic effect here with the mountains, deserts, lakes... I don't know. I was just surprised to see nothing come up. I even put in a Palmdale ZIP (93551), still nothing DT from LA.

Analog reception indoors with my Silver Sensor gets me 18 (snowy, sometimes in color) and 64 (pretty decent, but appears to be from Barstow). Is 18 broadcast from Mt. Wilson? I saw it's over 3 MW, but there are other stations in LA with that kind of broadcast power that I can't see at all.

I might be able to get the DS-1111 to work if I have the s-pipe come at a 90 deg angle (toward the west) and have the antenna bolted perpendicularly to it (facing south). As I mentioned, I am concerned about the wind load, but this way I can clamp it down and the clamp bracket will (hopefully) prevent the antenna from rotating and the flat plate will support the weight of the antenna/amp/mast. I thought about the extension too, but I thought I might have a weight problem and didn't think lengthening the moment arm would be a good idea. If I try this, would I just take an aluminum pipe with a smaller OD and slide it into the top of the s-pipe, or should it go around the outside of it?

I am blocked locally by a few cottonwoods and an oleander. I think I can "trim" the oleander. :) When I go half a mile south (out of the trees), I can see Mt. Wilson... I think. There are two peaks. What does Mt. Wilson look like from the north?

Well, I'll probably be giving this a shot over the weekend. Thanks for the suggestions!

I hate to say this but I am somewhat lost on what antenna I should get and any other amplifiers I should be using (ie amp). I would like to hook up a PC with an HDTV tuner card and two analog tv's (bedroom and living room). So total would be three devices, one digitial and two analog. I would like to buy one to mount on the roof of my house which will give me the most reception at a reasonable cost. My house is in a flat neighborhood and there aren't large trees to worry about. Here is the info I got from antennaweb:

DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
* yellow - uhf KICU-DT 36.1 IND SAN JOSE CA 11° 10.7 52
* yellow - uhf KKPX-DT 65.1 PAX SAN JOSE CA 296° 35.2 41
* yellow - vhf KNTV-DT 11.1 NBC SAN JOSE CA 144° 17.5 12
* yellow - uhf KDTV-DT 14.1 UNI SAN FRANCISCO CA 8° 11.3 51
* yellow - uhf KMTP-DT 33.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 33
* yellow - uhf KSTS-DT 48.1 TEL SAN JOSE CA 8° 11.3 49
green - uhf KSTS 48 TEL SAN JOSE CA 8° 11.3 48
green - uhf KTEH 54 PBS SAN JOSE CA 11° 10.7 54
* green - uhf KTEH-DT 54.1 PBS SAN JOSE CA 11° 10.7 50
* green - uhf KQED-DT 9.1 PBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 30
green - uhf KDTV 14 UNI SAN FRANCISCO CA 8° 11.3 14
* green - uhf KPIX-DT 5.1 CBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 300° 39.2 29
* green - uhf KBWB-DT 20.1 WB SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 19
green - uhf KBHK 44 UPN SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 44
green - uhf KCNS 38 SAH SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 38
* green - uhf KGO-DT 7.1 ABC SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 24
green - uhf KKPX 65 PAX SAN JOSE CA 144° 17.5 65
green - uhf KICU 36 IND SAN JOSE CA 11° 10.7 36
lt green - uhf KAXT-CA 22 IND SANTA CLARA-SAN JOSE CA 84° 11.1 22
lt green - vhf KGO 7 ABC SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 7
lt green - uhf KBWB 20 WB SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 20
lt green - uhf KTSF 26 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 296° 35.2 26
lt green - vhf KNTV 11 NBC SAN JOSE CA 144° 17.5 11
lt green - vhf KQED 9 PBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 9
lt green - uhf KMTP 32 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 32
lt green - uhf KFSF 66 TFA VALLEJO CA 301° 39.1 66
* lt green - uhf KSMS-DT 31.1 UNI MONTEREY CA 137° 23.2 31
* red - uhf KTVU-DT 2.1 FOX OAKLAND CA 301° 39.1 56
* red - uhf KFSF-DT 66.1 TFA VALLEJO CA 301° 39.1 34
* red - uhf KRON-DT 4.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 57
* red - uhf KTSF-DT 26.1 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 296° 35.2 27
* red - uhf KTFK-DT 64.1 SAH STOCKTON CA TBD 348° 36.8 62
* red - uhf KCSM-DT 43.1 PBS SAN MATEO CA 301° 39.1 43
* red - uhf KCNS-DT 38.1 SAH SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 39
* red - uhf KBHK-DT 44.1 UPN SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 45
blue - uhf KFTL-CA 28 IND SAN FRANCISCO, ETC CA 11° 10.7 28
blue - vhf KPIX 5 CBS SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 5
blue - vhf KRON 4 IND SAN FRANCISCO CA 301° 39.1 4
blue - uhf KTLN 68 IND NOVATO CA 313° 65.4 68
blue - vhf KTVU 2 FOX OAKLAND CA 301° 39.1 2
violet - vhf KVIE 6 PBS SACRAMENTO CA 5° 68.2 6
violet - uhf KSMS 67 UNI MONTEREY CA 133° 47.9 67
violet - uhf KTEH1 54 PBS SANTA CRUZ CA 145° 17.5 54
violet - vhf KXTV 10 ABC SACRAMENTO CA 6° 66.3 10
violet - uhf KRCB 22 PBS COTATI CA 319° 76.9 22
violet - vhf KSBW 8 NBC SALINAS CA 133° 47.9 8
violet - vhf KOVR 13 CBS STOCKTON CA 6° 66.3 13
violet - uhf KTNC 42 AZA CONCORD CA 349° 37.7 42
violet - uhf KCBA 35 FOX SALINAS CA 133° 47.9 35
violet - vhf KCRA 3 NBC SACRAMENTO CA 6° 68.1 3
violet - uhf KTFK 64 SAH STOCKTON CA 349° 37.7 64

I am attaching a picture of my house in case it matters. Anyways, I am hoping someone can help me out there. Thank you in advance.

I really need some answers here. Please help. I live in Russellville, Arkansas, 72801. I am trying to pick up OTA out of Little Rock. According to Antennaweb, the towers are about 48 miles away. They are all in the same place. When I get analog reception with rabbit ears, I get all of the stations in o.k., though fox is the best. When I try to get digital with the same antenna, I get CBS at about 75% and no signal for any other channels at all. I live in an apartmemt building on the first floor and an outdoor setup is absolutely not an option. I have tried several different expensive($100+) indoor antennas and none compare to the rs rabbit ears for CBS and they don't have a signal for any other channels either. I have'nt tried a silver sensor, DB-2, preamp, or amp yet.

My questions are: Should I just return this reciever and give up on OTA?

Am I too far away to use an indoor antenna?

What set-up would get me more channels?

Why can I get analog signals, but not digital?

Why does CBS come in but nothing else even has a sinal? (The towers are in the same place and I think are the same power)

Will an amp or preamp help if there is no signal to amplify?

and:

Will a DB-2 with a CM 7777 help?

Any information will be greatly appreciated

Thanks

Dirac: I ran some quick propagation Predictions using the (free) RADIO MOBILE propagation prediction program.

With a CM4221 and a preamp, RM predicts a 13-15 dB fade margin for KTLA-DT (WB), KNBC-DT, KOCE-DT (PBS) and KCBS-DT.
The prediction was 4-7 dB fade margin for KTBN-DT, KABC-DT, KTTV-DT (FOX) and KCOP-DT (UPN).
So there is definitely a difference between being located on Mt Wilson and being located on the nearby but "downslope" Mt Harvard.

I used the "current" transmitter power levels found in the FCC database:
www.tvradioworld.com/region1/ca/tv.asp?m=los
KTTV-DT, KNBC-DT, KCOP-DT and KTLA-DT, are expected to increase their transmitter power in the near future
(maybe they have already???), which will improve their fade margin from 2 to 5 dB, depending on the station.

At least 10 dB and preferably 20 dB of fade margin is needed to combat multipath, local clutter loss effects and to overcome weather variations.
So the higher gain of a CM4228 might be needed if you have reception reliability problems.
The preamp's improved sensitivity will be critical to receiving LA stations, even though they are only 27 miles away.

Let us know how it goes.
I'm collecting user results to compare against antennaweb.org, which has a reputation for underpredicting digital stations.

See attachment for an example calculation (sorry about the overcompression).
Note that the signal has to diffract off of two mountain peaks before it gets to you.

Per antennaweb.org zipcode lookup, I used Palmdale location at approx Twincreek Ave and Chalfort Ln.
Unless you are up against the hill, these results should apply to the entire zipcode.

For more readable images and more info on the (FREE) RADIO MOBILE program see fol. post:
http://hdtv.forsandiego.com/messages/1/2846.html?1112095186

I am confused. I just got a Dish dvr942 with local hd. I had an antenna in my attic that was 10 years old that the dish guy said would work just fine. I had anticipated him telling me I would need a new hd antenna so I purchased a Radio Shack VU75XR. He told me after installing the dish that I could just return the antenna.

What troubles me is the pq of the local dish channels whether ota or thru dish appears grainy and I thought they were supposed to be clear as HD. Was the guy lazy or trying to save me some money? I would think my locals should look as good as HD Discovery etc... Should I use the new antenna? Will this improve my pq?

Thanks

I am confused. I just got a Dish dvr942 with local hd. I had an antenna in my attic that was 10 years old that the dish guy said would work just fine. I had anticipated him telling me I would need a new hd antenna so I purchased a Radio Shack VU75XR. He told me after installing the dish that I could just return the antenna.

What troubles me is the pq of the local dish channels whether ota or thru dish appears grainy and I thought they were supposed to be clear as HD. Was the guy lazy or trying to save me some money? I would think my locals should look as good as HD Discovery etc... Should I use the new antenna? Will this improve my pq?

Thanks

First, check to make sure you don’t have your satellite locals mapped to be viewed instead of OTA. You should see a signal meter when you first tune to an OTA station. The 942 only as the ATSC tuner active, so there should be no grain. The major networks have not bought enough equipment to present every show in HD. Most to the HD content is on at prime time.

I hate to say this but I am somewhat lost on what antenna I should get

Did you try walking around your neighborhood and asking other people with rooftop antennas for advice? Last time I was in Santa Clara, there were so many antennas, it looked like the 1970s.

First, check to make sure you don’t have your satellite locals mapped to be viewed instead of OTA. You should see a signal meter when you first tune to an OTA station. The 942 only as the ATSC tuner active, so there should be no grain. The major networks have not bought enough equipment to present every show in HD. Most to the HD content is on at prime time.

I am new to all this so forgive any dumb comments by me. I noticed that I have the ability to view 3 each of the same local channels. Are some ota and some are thru dish? Some are color coded blue while others are yellow.

Did you try walking around your neighborhood and asking other people with rooftop antennas for advice? Last time I was in Santa Clara, there were so many antennas, it looked like the 1970s.

Heh. Thanks for the advice. Actually, the house is a new house I just bought in a different city. I won't be moving in there for another month but when I do, I guess I'll ask around if I haven't found an antenna to buy :)

Dirac: I ran some quick propagation Predictions using the (free) RADIO MOBILE propagation prediction program.

Thanks for running that prediction! My antenna came today and I had enough time to play with it in the garage tonight. Still no signal for any DT... spent most of my time trying to pull in 36, 48 and 60. Analog 18 comes in quite well, with just a bit of light snow. (Where is this being transmitted from?) This is again with a CM 4228 with no preamp (still scheduled for Wednesday). I'll try with the preamp on Sunday. I'll let you know what happens; thanks again for the information.

EDIT: You said 27 miles away... according to antennaweb it's more like 47. I might have confused you with my post--did you have the right ZIP/location (93523, not 93551)? Hopefully that doesn't make things a lot worse! If it takes Lat/Long, the coordinates for KEDW airport could be used:

Lat/Long: 34-54-19.8000N / 117-53-01.2400W
34-54.330000N / 117-53.020667W
34.9055000 / -117.8836778
(estimated)
Elevation: 2302 ft. / 702 m (estimated)

I will also play around with RADIO MOBILE this weekend.

The predictions above are for the vicinity of Palmdale, using CM-4221 4-Bay with Preamp.

Good news when I re-ran using your LAT/LONG for vicinity Rosamond Blvd and SR58.
Although it is another 30 miles away, the diffraction "down" angle is much less,
resulting in fade margins that are 3-6 dB higher. Plus a few more dB with CM-4228.
So with preamp, that puts the better stations in the ballpark of 20 dB fade margin.

I'll put together a more detailed summary in the next few days.

Re RADIO MOBILE: It isn't very difficult to get started, since the low-rez
topographic files are automatically downloaded via the Internet.
If you like it, I would also recommend joining the RM Yahoo users group.

Hi-rez topo files require manually downloading a few specific 1 x 1 degree blocks,
which then have to be unzipped into a folder. You then have to use RM's
"Options:Elevation Data" menu to point to that folder.
They recently added a BIL to SRTM converter, but I haven't tried it yet.

CH18 is probably low power (7 kW) K18HD in Bakersfield, whoever they are.

I am new to all this so forgive any dumb comments by me. I noticed that I have the ability to view 3 each of the same local channels. Are some ota and some are thru dish? Some are color coded blue while others are yellow.

Yellow would probably indicate it's a local that has been scanned by your receiver. I have the 811 and I see the same thing. The blue colored channels are thru Dish. Some locals have multiple digital channels so you need to find the one that is their HD signal. Best way to do this is try viewing them during primetime. You'll find the HD channels (if the program is in HD) and then you can remove the other ones.

What I ended up doing was creating a favorites list with just the HD channels and this made things much easier.

I hate to say this but I am somewhat lost on what antenna I should get and any other amplifiers I should be using (ie amp).

Because your stations are scattered all around you, you'll need a rotor on whatever antenna you get. This may be a pain, as you'll have to have agreement between all three televisions as to which direction you point. With that many channels in that many directions, there is no solution south of $1000 (and probably much more) that would allow you to do what cable does - just turn on the set and tune to whichever channel you want.

For UHF/VHF at your distance, I'd recommend a Winegard HD-7084P, without an amplifier of any kind. Some of your stations are far too close to use an amplifier - it will just ruin your reception.

With CM 4228, I live in huntley which is 45 mile from chicago. I get sll channel
5.1,5.2,7.1,7.2,7.3,,9.1,9.2,11.1,11.2,20.1,26.1,26.2,32.1,3 8.1,38.2,38.3,38.4,38.5,44.1,50.1 but no channel 3.1 I think because it in VHF.

I got 5.1,5.2, 9.1,9.2 and 32.1 at full 100% signal.
Just let you guys, I am 100% satisfied customer with Channel master 4228.

Because your stations are scattered all around you, you'll need a rotor on whatever antenna you get. This may be a pain, as you'll have to have agreement between all three televisions as to which direction you point. With that many channels in that many directions, there is no solution south of $1000 (and probably much more) that would allow you to do what cable does - just turn on the set and tune to whichever channel you want.

For UHF/VHF at your distance, I'd recommend a Winegard HD-7084P, without an amplifier of any kind. Some of your stations are far too close to use an amplifier - it will just ruin your reception.

Thank you sregener :D

Yellow would probably indicate it's a local that has been scanned by your receiver. I have the 811 and I see the same thing. The blue colored channels are thru Dish. Some locals have multiple digital channels so you need to find the one that is their HD signal. Best way to do this is try viewing them during primetime. You'll find the HD channels (if the program is in HD) and then you can remove the other ones.

What I ended up doing was creating a favorites list with just the HD channels and this made things much easier.

Thanks pjo, will try that.

Dirac: Attached are detailed Fade Margin calculations for your location North of Edwards AFB, CA.
Looks like it will work some of the time but not all the time.

These more detailed results aren't anywhere near as conservative as antennaweb.org and are somewhat more pessimistic
than RADIO MOBILE when used without the benefit of the "extra" parameters found in the spread sheet.
So it is somewhere in between.

The Excel spread sheet is tailored for use in the greater Los Angeles area.
:) HOWEVER, IT CAN BE READILY ADAPTED FOR USE IN ANY LOCATION. :)

Although the (FREE) RADIO MOBILE Propagation Prediction Program can calculate a variety of results,
I have not taken the time to enter gain vs frequency for a multiplicity of antennas.
Nor is it easy to adapt it for different Noise Figures, downlead cable loss, with/without Preamp, et. al.

Hence I developed the attached Excel spread sheet in order to address each contributor to the overall gain/loss calculation.
It only requires RADIO MOBILE to calculate the TOTAL PATH LOSS and DISTANCE.
All the other parameters are entered by the user, depending on implementation specifics.

I included a detailed explanation and worked examples with/without a distribution amplifier as well as with/without a preamp (your current situation).
If you go through the calculation explanation, perhaps you'll gain an appreciation for how difficult it is to estimate some of these parameters,
such as "Attic Loss", "Noise Figure Degradation due to Antenna VSWR", "Local Clutter Loss".... [I'm still researching these topics.]
and finally how much Fade Margin is REALLY required to account for how much more SNR your receiver needs in YOUR multipath environment.... :confused:
and how much is needed to overcome seasonal variations, such as those nasty inversion layers.... [Which are pretty much go/nogo when they occur.]

The goal is to see if there is a better prediction methodology than the overly conservative results provided by antennaweb.org.
So far, this methodology appears to be much more accurate at determing if a usable signal is present.
If anyone needs to determine long term reliability, the "Mode of Variability" in RADIO MOBILE can be changed from 50% to 90% values.

I included results for my son's location between Temecula and Winchester, CA.
Note the predictions agreed with actual reception results for almost all stations. :D
Some of the "problem" stations are known to have experienced difficulties, such as KLCS-DT and KCOP-DT.
Results were last updated in February and do not reflect the planned "Full Power" transmitter upgrades....whenever they occur.

I got an elgato 500 and got an indoor antenna as a starting point. That was only able to tune the two PBS stations and those w/occasional dropouts and the audio falling behind. I got an SR-15 from antennasdirect (their recommendation) and have been able to tune 4 and 11 now (NBC and FOX), and KCET is a little stronger (no dropouts now).

I'm 9m from Mt Wilson in the hills on the west side of the arroyo so maybe the hills are getting in the way. We tried to raise the antenna up a bit (it's on a a pole attached to my chimney).

Im thinking about getting over the air High Def. My questin is How close do I have to be to catch these channels? What is the best antenna? What all do I need.?

My questin is How close do I have to be to catch these channels? What is the best antenna? What all do I need.?

Generally speaking, 60 miles is a good estimate of how far away signals reach.

Asking what is the best antenna is like asking what is the best kind of car - until you know what you need, you can't figure out which one best suits your particular situation.

At a minimum, you need an ATSC tuner (some TVs have them built in,) an antenna designed for the frequencies you want, and some coaxial cable (RG-6 is recommended) to connect the tuner to the antenna.

Im thinking about getting over the air High Def. My questin is How close do I have to be to catch these channels? What is the best antenna? What all do I need.?

Dude - you need to do some research on your own first.

Is there even a signal close to you? Try;

www.antennaweb.org

If yes, then start with;

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/

Are all stations still required to be at full power by july 1st 2005 in the top 100 markets. El Paso only has fox at full power but I dont know if any of the other basics are going to be full power by then.

tim q: You should also check out the local thread(s) nearest your location:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=45

Also be aware that antennaweb.org will probably miss many of the more distant DTV stations that can be received with bigger antennas and preamps.

Update on my attic antenna:

Well, I bought a CM4228 (without preamp), and swapped it with the antenna I had in the attic. It doesn't perform any better than the one I had :( Is this simply a matter of me getting a preamp to go with it? The antenna I had up there is a Walmart special - Philips Mant510. It has a built in amplifier which boosts up to 50db. The Philips is currently kicking the tail out of the CM4228. My guess is I need a preamp as the towers are over 35 miles away. So far I'm not impressed by the CM4228 at all. I'm almost ready to ship it back.

Gonna play some more today and see if I can find a sweet spot with it.....hopefully it can redeem itself.....

Well, I bought a CM4228 (without preamp), and swapped it with the antenna I had in the attic. It doesn't perform any better than the one I had :( Is this simply a matter of me getting a preamp to go with it? The antenna I had up there is a Walmart special - Philips Mant510. It has a built in amplifier which boosts up to 50db. The Philips is currently kicking the tail out of the CM4228. My guess is I need a preamp as the towers are over 35 miles away. So far I'm not impressed by the CM4228 at all. I'm almost ready to ship it back.

Gonna play some more today and see if I can find a sweet spot with it.....hopefully it can redeem itself.....

The aiming of the 4228 has to be precise. This is a very directional antenna. If you're off by just a degree or two, you can have a major performance decline.

I made some changes in the attic with the 4228. Getting ABC/NBC at 90%. CBS is hovering around 70%. I'll continue tweaking as best as I can. For a multi-directional antenna, I thought it would be better at retrieving signals from towers that are separated by 20 degrees or more. I'll post back after some more testing.....

First, check to make sure you don’t have your satellite locals mapped to be viewed instead of OTA. You should see a signal meter when you first tune to an OTA station. The 942 only as the ATSC tuner active, so there should be no grain. The major networks have not bought enough equipment to present every show in HD. Most to the HD content is on at prime time.

I see a signal meter when I tune to a local, such as 97% signal strength etc...
How do I make sure my locals are set to OTA? What do you mean by mapped etc...? What do you mean by no grain? What does that have to do with original questions?

Questions about my antenna; It is 10 years old but I am receiving all the digital channels thru it. My concern is that would I be getting better pq if I had a newer antenna? In other words, would a new "HD" antenna do a better job or do you really need a so-called hd antenna. It seems the tuner is what makes an antenna receive hd signals, not the antenna...is this correct?

Thanks for the help...

For a multi-directional antenna, I thought it would be better at retrieving signals from towers that are separated by 20 degrees or more. I'll post back after some more testing.....

Multi-directional? Says who? The 4228 is one of the more directional antennas on the market. If you wanted multi-directional covering 20+ degrees, the 4221 would be a much better choice.

Compare this: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html
to this: http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4221.html

My concern is that would I be getting better pq if I had a newer antenna? In other words, would a new "HD" antenna do a better job or do you really need a so-called hd antenna. It seems the tuner is what makes an antenna receive hd signals, not the antenna...is this correct?

Digital is pretty much an "all or nothing" medium. If you're getting a lot of blockiness (large blocks on the screen called macroblocking) often, or dropouts (i.e. the screen goes black for a second before the picture returns) then you have a problem. If you're not getting that kind of reception problem, then your antenna is already working "optimally."

In the US, digital broadcasts are on the same frequencies as analog broadcasts were. Since antennas are designed to receive a range of freqencies, there is nothing that makes an antenna "HD". Some antennas advertised as "HD" have better UHF sections on them than what used to be included, but that's the only thing that might make them better (since most digitals are on UHF and most VHF/UHF antennas have poor UHF sections.)

Digital is pretty much an "all or nothing" medium. If you're getting a lot of blockiness (large blocks on the screen called macroblocking) often, or dropouts (i.e. the screen goes black for a second before the picture returns) then you have a problem. If you're not getting that kind of reception problem, then your antenna is already working "optimally."

In the US, digital broadcasts are on the same frequencies as analog broadcasts were. Since antennas are designed to receive a range of freqencies, there is nothing that makes an antenna "HD". Some antennas advertised as "HD" have better UHF sections on them than what used to be included, but that's the only thing that might make them better (since most digitals are on UHF and most VHF/UHF antennas have poor UHF sections.)

So, If I am getting good signal strength from my old antenna then I should just keep it and return the new one, correct?

Also I am paying for locals on my hd sat, shouldnt i just discontinue that service since i am getting them ota?

Sumdumgi,

Keep the one you have and return the new one.

I'm not sure what Dish will do if you try to cancel your locals. I'd call and find out as they might charge you to do that based on whatever contract you signed with them. They don't like it when their customers 'downgrade'.

they charge a one-time fee of $10, IIRC, so you want to lump all your downgrades together into one call.

New update on my CM4228. Ok, I didn't think this would work, but it did. I ended up pointing this thing towards Boston, which is approx 80+ miles away. Without a pre-amp, I'm getting all of their digital channels at 65% or better. Incredible. I now have 3 PBS stations (Maine, NH, MA). Channel Master rules...

Are all stations still required to be at full power by july 1st 2005 in the top 100 markets. El Paso only has fox at full power but I dont know if any of the other basics are going to be full power by then.

Are all stations still required to be at full power by july 1st 2005 in the top 100 markets. El Paso only has fox at full power but I dont know if any of the other basics are going to be full power by then.

Just the "Big 4", i.e. Fox, CBS, ABC, and NBC. All other stations (and all stations in markets 101 and up) have until 7/1/06.

Hmm...question about signal strength. Last night, I was pulling in 70% signal strength on all of the stations out of Boston. This morning, after not moving anything...just turning on the set, all of the stations are well below 49% and I can't lock. Was it all just luck last night? Doesn't make sense to me. The wind has certainly picked up today but I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it.....

Thoughts?

Last night, I was pulling in 70% signal strength on all of the stations out of Boston. This morning, after not moving anything...just turning on the set, all of the stations are well below 49% and I can't lock. Was it all just luck last night? Doesn't make sense to me. The wind has certainly picked up today but I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it.....

Wind can definitely mess with reception. More so if you have trees nearby. There was also a high probability of tropospheric ducting last night. See: http://home.cogeco.ca/~vem3ont22/tr_map/archive/5eam.jpg

You can check the ducting forecast here:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~dxinfo/tropo.html

In summer, as the ground cools in the evening, inversions form in the atmosphere in the tropospheric layer, which causes the UHF signals to "bounce" back to earth, increasing distance and improving reception. As the sun rises the next morning, the ground begins to heat and the effect dissipates. Wind interferes with this effect, so it is strongest on calm evenings after hot days, but it can happen even when it is relatively cool (say, highs in the mid-40s.)

Reliable reception beyond 60 miles normally requires some help from the troposphere, as the curvature of the earth means that the signal cannot reach you direction - the ground itself is in the way. This 60 mile number varies based on broadcast antenna height, receive antenna height, and intervening terrain, but is a good, general rule.

I have, with tropospheric help, received digital stations about 250 miles away. I do, regularly but not always, get stations 75 miles away (blocked by the earth.) Daytime in the summer is the worst for long-distance reception for me.

Hope this helps clear some things up for you.

I am looking to install my antennas in the attic of my house ( i know outside is better, but i am not that far from the towers). I am thinking of getting a DB4, and combining that with my vhf antenna, I have the combiner, but my question is... what can i use to pick up the FM stations for my stero in the basement. I see some of the Amps have a FM trap on them, can i just pull the signal off the VHF antenna and use that?

sregener,

Thanks for the info. Would a pre-amp help my cause at all?

I made some changes in the attic with the 4228. Getting ABC/NBC at 90%. CBS is hovering around 70%. I'll continue tweaking as best as I can. For a multi-directional antenna, I thought it would be better at retrieving signals from towers that are separated by 20 degrees or more. I'll post back after some more testing.....

I had a 4228 in the attic for a few days and I was amazed at the difference when I brought it out of the attic and put it on a pole. And I've got huge oak trees all around my yard!

what can i use to pick up the FM stations for my stero in the basement. I see some of the Amps have a FM trap on them, can i just pull the signal off the VHF antenna and use that?

Any VHF antenna that gets channel 6 should receive FM (the FM dial starts at the top of channel 6.) Make sure the FM trap is "out" or "off."

Thanks for the info. Would a pre-amp help my cause at all?

Depends on what the problem is. The easiest way to debug is to do the "analogs" test. Tune to an analog UHF station that is on the same tower as the digital station you're trying to receive. If the picture has lots of snow, a preamplifier is a great idea - your problem is weak signal and a preamplifier will help with that. If the picture has ghosting, though, a preamplifier will only make your digital reception worse - the problem is multipath.

Attics are very prone to multipath, and preamplifiers have a lower success rate there than outside.

You should never use a preamplifier if you are closer than 20 miles from the nearest transmitter in the amplified range (i.e. if you are amplifying VHF, the nearest VHF television station - analog or digital - or FM station is the one to measure.)

Still, if you keep your receipts, the risk is relatively low to try one out. Look for low-noise models. Most report the Channel Master 777x lineup to be the best. Beware, though, the 7775 does not even pass VHF - it blocks it completely. If you need any VHF, FM or might need them in the future, get the 7777.

Any VHF antenna that gets channel 6 should receive FM (the FM dial starts at the top of channel 6.) Make sure the FM trap is "out" or "off."

I have a cutenna for ch7 will the FM freq overlap that enough to pick it up. I guess i can always just entend the little wire that comes with the stero :-)

I have a clear line of site to the tv towers all located in one spot up on the mountain. I am around 13 miles away. The frequencies I want range from channel 10 to 57. There are no other tv stations near by in other directions. What is the best type of outdoor antenna that I need? a UHF yagi? That new parabolic mesh dish? a bow tie type? Thanks.

I have a clear line of site to the tv towers all located in one spot up on the mountain. I am around 13 miles away. The frequencies I want range from channel 10 to 57. There are no other tv stations near by in other directions. What is the best type of outdoor antenna that I need? a UHF yagi? That new parabolic mesh dish? a bow tie type? Thanks.

Seems like a perfect situation for a CM 4221 and no preamp to me. The 4221 is a medium range uhf antenna which is also decent for vhf 9-13.

I have a cutenna for ch7 will the FM freq overlap that enough to pick it up. I guess i can always just entend the little wire that comes with the stero :-)

Probably not unless you are using a rotor and can turn the antenna off-axis. It will perform best for FM when rotated so it "looks" most like an FM dipole to the incoming signal.

In addition, FM can be tricky to combine with the rest of the signals unless you're not using a preamp as it tends to overload easily (almost all of us have at least one FM station very close).

I have a clear line of site to the tv towers all located in one spot up on the mountain. I am around 13 miles away. The frequencies I want range from channel 10 to 57. There are no other tv stations near by in other directions. What is the best type of outdoor antenna that I need? a UHF yagi? That new parabolic mesh dish? a bow tie type? Thanks.

I agree with CPCAT the 4221 should be on the antenna you need. Stay away from the gimicky antennas.

I was wondering if you guys had an opinion on this antenna that is being sold on eBay.

http://cgi.*********/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=73383&item=5784537849&rd=1

My rotor just gave out on my big channel master and it would be nice to rotate an antenna again and this one costs about the same for a new rotor and includes this weird looking antenna. I read the guys feedback and the people that bought it seem to be pleased including one guy that says he receives stations up to 50 miles. I live around 40 from all my locals..

the **'s = ebay. com

Thanks guys, I think I will give it a try considering how cheap of price it is. It's marked as LD, but I bet its really a medium like you said.

Why does 'antenna web' have a compass orientation different than the site that uses longitude and latitude plus degree declenation to give you direction from your site to antenna? Which do I use?

One last question. You said no preamp. If I have a splitter to go to two tvs would a preamp then be needed?

Why does 'antenna web' have a compass orientation different than the site that uses longitude and latitude plus degree declenation to give you direction from your site to antenna? Which do I use?

I guess it depends on whether they are including the magnetic drift in their calculation - magentic north isn't the same as "true" north.

You should never take such directions as "gold." Always aim the antenna by checking your signal either with a digital tuner or by watching the analog signals.

One last question. You said no preamp. If I have a splitter to go to two tvs would a preamp then be needed?

Possibly, depending on how much total cable run you have and whether you have RG6 or RG59 in the house. Pick up the CM 3042 line amp at Lowe's (if necessary) and put it inside just before the split. It's a very good line/distribution amp and will be more resistant to overload than a preamp. At 13 miles, you'll likely overload if you use a preamp.

Even distibution/line amps can sometimes be affected by FM. If you use the line amp, you may benefit from an FM trap just ahead of it's input. In your application, using the "hi" port of a hi/lo combiner will work well. This will filter out everything below channel 7 (FM, channels 2-6). Hi/Lo combiner available from Pico see http://www.picomacom.com/specs/pico/C/C24.pdf. It's around 3 dollars plus shipping.

Why does 'antenna web' have a compass orientation different than the site that uses longitude and latitude plus degree declenation to give you direction from your site to antenna? Which do I use?

In my experience, http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp is very accurate, to around 1-2 degrees. It's important to find your exact lat/long. Go to http://terraserver.microsoft.com/ and put in your address. For long distance, a rotor is very helpful for fine tuning your aim regardless.

Like was said above, use your analogs to double check things. With a rotator, it's easy to find the "center" of your aim with digital signals as well simply by rotating slowly through the signal, then rotating back half that distance.

The reason I ask about the compass difference is that it is 17 deg. But I agree I ill look for the 'right' direction.
The real problem I am trying to solve is the following. Current antenna is RS VU190XR with CM 7777 receiving Ch 3,18, 30 & 36 from one point 47 miles away and Ch 20 & 34 from 30 deg away at 23 miles.
I am going thru trees and must redirect by seasons and lots of drop outs in wind rain etc. ch 20 & 34 are not effected and perhaps any antenna will pick them up.
A good directional UHF should solve the 18,30&36 - but what about 3? A separate low channel VHF antenna with the cm7777 combining them?One last caveat - ch 34 has requested to go to ch 13 in their first round pick. The 7777 would filter out 13 and the VHF would not pick it up (ch 34 being close and strong might overcome this?)
A little complicated but I know some of you may have suggestions that have alluded me.
Thanks for listening.

The reason I ask about the compass difference is that it is 17 deg. But I agree I ill look for the 'right' direction.
The real problem I am trying to solve is the following. Current antenna is RS VU190XR with CM 7777 receiving Ch 3,18, 30 & 36 from one point 47 miles away and Ch 20 & 34 from 30 deg away at 23 miles.
I am going thru trees and must redirect by seasons and lots of drop outs in wind rain etc. ch 20 & 34 are not effected and perhaps any antenna will pick them up.
A good directional UHF should solve the 18,30&36 - but what about 3? A separate low channel VHF antenna with the cm7777 combining them?One last caveat - ch 34 has requested to go to ch 13 in their first round pick. The 7777 would filter out 13 and the VHF would not pick it up (ch 34 being close and strong might overcome this?)
A little complicated but I know some of you may have suggestions that have alluded me.
Thanks for listening.

In that situation I'd go with the Antennasdirect XG 91 on a rotator with a medium range wide band vhf fixed around 60 inches below such as the Antennacraft 3BG17 . This should do fine now and in the future for you based on what you said above.

ay211: No preamp, even with loss in downlead and a couple splitters.
You are way too close to the broadcast towers.

Heya everyone. I've been researching what to do antenna-wise for our house in order to get into HD OTA broadcasts. I'm pretty new to all this, and it even took my wife to explain some things to me I had never understood before.

I'm trying to decide between a Winegard Squareshooter with 12 db amp mounted outside at the roofline of two story house--or a Channelmaster 4228 mounted in the attic (not sure about amp). Our roof is tile.

I do not know which would be more effective, and I would like to get a strong signal on the channels.

To quote from another post of someone who lives very near me: "am actually in Roseville (95678) about 35 miles from the towers (all located in the same direction). I live in a very suburban neighborhood with CC&R's that prohibit rooftop antenna's (I know, I could fight that if I want...)". He mounted a Squareshooter on the roof and then added a preamp to strengthen a couple of the signals.

I'm hoping to get digital channels 3.1, 6.1, 10.1, 13.1, 40.1, 58.1. Out of those, 6.1, 10.1, and 58.1 are green for my location on antennaweb, the others are yellow. All are 35 miles away in the same direction. If I were to guess, it doesn't seem that there is all that much in the way between my house and where the towers are.

Also the Squareshooter would be harder to mount, would be outside in the elements, and I would have to figure out how to get the wire back into the house--but the wire would only have to run about 20 ft.

The 4228 would be easier to mount in the attic, would be protected from the elements, but I would have to run the wire maybe 50 feet.

Any opinions on this to help me?

Thanks!

No luck in the garage with the preamp. I did a quick analog test with the amp installed and got some signal from 7 (KABC), but that was it. I turned it toward Bakersfield and got watchable signal from 23 (KERO) and 29 (KBAK), but nothing for their digital equivalents. Unfortunately, Bakersfield is DMA #130 so the new deadline won't help me anytime soon. I'll try tomorrow or Tuesday outside with the DBS mount. Bakersfield is 50.5 and LA is 48.5 from my location, but it appears my surroundings are more favorable to reception from Bakersfield. I'm not giving up yet.... thanks again holl_ands for the info.

Heya everyone. I've been researching what to do antenna-wise for our house in order to get into HD OTA broadcasts. I'm pretty new to all this, and it even took my wife to explain some things to me I had never understood before.

I'm trying to decide between a Winegard Squareshooter with 12 db amp mounted outside at the roofline of two story house--or a Channelmaster 4228 mounted in the attic (not sure about amp). Our roof is tile.

I do not know which would be more effective, and I would like to get a strong signal on the channels.

To quote from another post of someone who lives very near me: "am actually in Roseville (95678) about 35 miles from the towers (all located in the same direction). I live in a very suburban neighborhood with CC&R's that prohibit rooftop antenna's (I know, I could fight that if I want...)". He mounted a Squareshooter on the roof and then added a preamp to strengthen a couple of the signals.

I'm hoping to get digital channels 3.1, 6.1, 10.1, 13.1, 40.1, 58.1. Out of those, 6.1, 10.1, and 58.1 are green for my location on antennaweb, the others are yellow. All are 35 miles away in the same direction. If I were to guess, it doesn't seem that there is all that much in the way between my house and where the towers are.

Also the Squareshooter would be harder to mount, would be outside in the elements, and I would have to figure out how to get the wire back into the house--but the wire would only have to run about 20 ft.

The 4228 would be easier to mount in the attic, would be protected from the elements, but I would have to run the wire maybe 50 feet.

Any opinions on this to help me?

Thanks!

I presume none of those stations are broadcasting a digital signal in the VHF frequencies, right?

The SquareShooter outside is your best bet. The 4228 is a better antenna, but an attic mount will block about 99% of the signal. Yes, about 99%. At 35 miles, the SquareShooter should perform well.

Ideally, of course, the 4228 outside would be my choice, if at all possible. ;)

Now all that said, I think a 4228 in the attic with a good preamp would probably work too; if you're not getting a lot of multipath problems and if the location in your attic would limit any reflections from things like air handlers or other metal stuff up there.

But I'd go the SquareShooter route first; that will give you a much better signal.

Normally, I'd advise Beagle first to try an attic 4228 with only a dist. amp to hopefully avoid a host of outside problems, to save money compared to a SquareShooter, and to get a good signal contrary to conventional wisdom that you lose some or all of the signal in the attic. But those roof tiles may be a real signal blockage problem and going with an outside SS could be the only option.

I presume none of those stations are broadcasting a digital signal in the VHF frequencies, right?

The SquareShooter outside is your best bet. The 4228 is a better antenna, but an attic mount will block about 99% of the signal. Yes, about 99%. At 35 miles, the SquareShooter should perform well.

Ideally, of course, the 4228 outside would be my choice, if at all possible. ;)

Now all that said, I think a 4228 in the attic with a good preamp would probably work too; if you're not getting a lot of multipath problems and if the location in your attic would limit any reflections from things like air handlers or other metal stuff up there.

But I'd go the SquareShooter route first; that will give you a much better signal.

My situation is identical and I've struggled with the 4228 or SS. Would you recommend the SS1000 or SS2000? The SS2000 with included preamp is less expensive, but I've read where the SS1000 provides better results.

Thx...Paul

Thanks for the replies!!

I am not all that handy at home projects so I will hope to get this done the first try with a Squareshooter outside. Your answers are pretty clear which is a stronger solution to my situation.

I presume none of those stations are broadcasting a digital signal in the VHF frequencies, right?

I had no idea what the answer was to this at first. But after looking again at antennaweb, I'm guessing all the digital channels I listed are in uhf frequency, from 25 to 61.

My situation is identical and I've struggled with the 4228 or SS. Would you recommend the SS1000 or SS2000? The SS2000 with included preamp is less expensive, but I've read where the SS1000 provides better results.

Paul, when I looked at prices, the SS1000 was less expensive than the SS2000. I don't know which is better though.

Thanks again for the help!! =) =)

No luck in the garage with the preamp. I did a quick analog test with the amp installed and got some signal from 7 (KABC), but that was it. I turned it toward Bakersfield and got watchable signal from 23 (KERO) and 29 (KBAK), but nothing for their digital equivalents. Unfortunately, Bakersfield is DMA #130 so the new deadline won't help me anytime soon. I'll try tomorrow or Tuesday outside with the DBS mount. Bakersfield is 50.5 and LA is 48.5 from my location, but it appears my surroundings are more favorable to reception from Bakersfield. I'm not giving up yet.... thanks again holl_ands for the info.

Looking back at your original post, it looks like you need an honest to goodness outdoor antenna mount with as much height as is practical or you're likely to be frustrated. The CM 4228 with the CM 7777 certainly should be a good start. Go here for more info on reception from Mt. Wilson:http://www.atechfabrication.com/reception_solutions.htm

If you want access to more than one market, the best solution is a rotator.

My situation is identical and I've struggled with the 4228 or SS. Would you recommend the SS1000 or SS2000? The SS2000 with included preamp is less expensive, but I've read where the SS1000 provides better results.

Thx...Paul
I really don't know the specs on the SS2000's included preamp, and that would be relatively important in suggesting whether to avoid it and go for an external preamp instead (presuming a preamp is even needed).

At about 31-32 miles, with no obstructions between me and the broadcast towers, I find the SS1000 outside with no preamp involved performs at least as well as my CM4228 in the attic that has a CM7777 preamp.

Every situation has something unique, so it's difficult to apply one persons experience with one given set of equipment to anothers.

If it were me, and I had to pick hardware I would not be able to return for credit, I'd buy the SS1000 and try it alone, then buy the CM7777 preamp if I felt a preamp were necessary. Actually, if I could place an antenna like the CM4228 outside, I would go right for it to begin with and avoid the SS1000 completely.

Keep in mind the preamp does nothing to increase the chances of receiving any given signal; it's purely for compensating for additional losses through your cabling and distribution system. Theoretically if you placed your receiver right at the antenna and were not able to tune a signal a preamp would do nothing to help you (i.e.; it's not going to make a signal magically appear out of nothingness). In the real world, there might be some small benefit sometimes, depending on the particular tuner's circuitry. But as a rule of thumb, don't expect a preamp to do anything magical.

You can have too much signal and overload a preamp or a receiver. And a preamp is amplifying noise and introducing some noise of its own, too, so avoiding them when they're not necessary helps you.

Hi guys

i can't determine which is the best indoor antenna for me. I live only like 5 miles away. In chicago, il. So everything is real close to me. Been looking at terks, ss, radio shack. but there is so many out there, need some recommandations and which ones would be best for me. also im in the basement. i was leaning towards a terk HDTVi or maybe a Samsung TV5.2. thanks a lot.

tom

If you moved your HDTV or OTA STB next to the antenna, a preamp would provide about 4-7 dB improvement in sensitivity.
That is a very significant improvement. However, for most people the difference is much larger.

An HDTV or OTA STB implementation must be designed to operate in a wide variety of signal conditions,
the result is that the tuner design must accomodate high signal levels, rather than provide the ultimate in receiver sensitivity.
If you are far enough away from a broadcast transmitter to avoid overload problems,
a preamp will almost always improve your reception in two ways:

a. A Preamp (N.F. = 2-4 dB) has much better sensitivity than an HDTV or OTA STB (N.F. = 7-10 dB),
providing a typical Total System Noise Figure under 3 dB, compared to 15-20 for a typical system without a Preamp.
Noise Figure (N.F.) is a measure of how much sensitivity is degraded compared to the thermal noise floor.
The Preamp decreases the sensitivity degradation due to loss in the downlead,
RF Splitters and HDTV/STB Noise Figure by the amount of Gain in the Preamp.

If you don't have a preamp, the Total System Noise Figure is probably in the ballpark of 15-20 dB.
It is the simple sum of the loss in the balun transformer (about 1.5 dB, if used),
the loss in the downlead (approx 3-5 dB per 100 ft of RG-6), the loss in various RF Splitters
(approx 4 dB for each 2-Way and 8 dB for each 4-Way)
and finally the Noise Figure of the HDTV or OTA STB (typically 7 to 10 dB per ATSC tuner manu. spec sheets).

b. Additional degradation in sensitivity (perhaps 2-6 dB) due to VSWR reflections up and down the downlead cable,
that would not be a problem with a Preamp mounted very close to the antenna.
These kind of reflections were found to degrade the ATSC broadcast signals,
requiring extemely well controlled VSWR in transmit antenna systems
and even sophisticated feedback systems that determined how much pre-distortion
needs to be added at the exciter in order to cancel the degradation.
See pgs 63+ in fol. for more info: http://www.atsc.org/news_information/papers.html
Performance Assessment of the ATSC Transmission Sys, Equip. & Future Directions, 12Apr01.

Earlier, on 6/8/05, I posted a detailed Excel Spread Sheet Calculator that addressed these issues.

Hi guys

i can't determine which is the best indoor antenna for me. I live only like 5 miles away. In chicago, il. So everything is real close to me. Been looking at terks, ss, radio shack. but there is so many out there, need some recommandations and which ones would be best for me. also im in the basement. i was leaning towards a terk HDTVi or maybe a Samsung TV5.2. thanks a lot.

tom
I'd try something like this first:
http://www.usahardware.com/inet/shop/item/30770/icn/20-900449/gemini/mant250.htm
You shouldn't need a lot of gain that close, and the 44" rabbit ears are a perfect match for WBBM-DT 3. It should be around locally, I found mine at Menards.

Come join us in the Chicago thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=444398&page=1&pp=30
if you need more help.

Hi I am from Northern New Jersey less than 20 miles from New York City. I have an outdoor VHF/UHF antenna on my roof about 25ft off the ground. I used antennaweb to help me point my antenna in the right direction. The channels broadcast from 159-163 degree direction and from 12-15 miles away. I use a used Panasonic Digital Television Decoder TU-DST51 which I bought really cheap. I went to setup and auto scanned the stations. I get all the major networks except no PBS. I do get a signal from PAX but the channel is not available. Unfrtunatley there is no signal meter. The only problem I have is that some days the signal is great and sometimes its pixilation city! Cuts out and comes back. A plane flys by to a nearby airport I lose signal for a few seconds. Its annoying. Now from the articles I read here I am too close for a Pre-Amp. I do have trees in the direction the antenna points. I checked another website Broadcast Television Search where you have to put the Longitude and Latitude which the showed actual maps and power kw from the stations.

Does anyone have any suggestions how I can stop or reduce the fluctuations with the signals? And I did notice that the stations thatare lower kw pixilate more than the higher kw stations.

Any help will be GREAT.

GPCOPY

[QUOTE=dswallow]I really don't know the specs on the SS2000's included preamp, and that would be relatively important in suggesting whether to avoid it and go for an external preamp instead (presuming a preamp is even needed).

The SS2000 preamp specs are 12db gain and 2.8 db S/N. Winegard offers the HDP 269 preamp (12db gain and 3db S/N) for approx the same price as the CM7777 (26db gain and 2db S/N). My cable run will be about 60 ft. What type of gain would be appropriate for that type of run? I'll be feeding a D* HD Tivo.

At about 31-32 miles, with no obstructions between me and the broadcast towers, I find the SS1000 outside with no preamp involved performs at least as well as my CM4228 in the attic that has a CM7777 preamp.

I am actually 40 miles from the towers with a one story house. The 4228 on the roof will not pass the WAF test. While I read great things of the 4228 in the attic, I think I will need maximum height which may be best achieved with the SS on the chimney.

If it were me, and I had to pick hardware I would not be able to return for credit, I'd buy the SS1000 and try it alone, then buy the CM7777 preamp if I felt a preamp were necessary. Actually, if I could place an antenna like the CM4228 outside, I would go right for it to begin with and avoid the SS1000 completely.

Your comments are quite helpful in understanding the role of the preamp. Based on my 60 ft cable run and the preamp choices, do you still think the SS1000 alone would be a viable option?

Thx..Paul

Your comments are quite helpful in understanding the role of the preamp. Based on my 60 ft cable run and the preamp choices, do you still think the SS1000 alone would be a viable option?
I think the SS1000 alone would be pushing the limits.

I'd go with the SS2000 or an SS1000 and CM7777 to start.

If you moved your HDTV or OTA STB next to the antenna, a preamp would provide about 4-7 dB improvement in sensitivity.
That is a very significant improvement. However, for most people the difference is much larger. <snip>

Thanks Holl_ands for your excellent and informative posting. Very interesting how those dB losses can start to add up.. it's a wonder we get a picture at all!

peter

I use a used Panasonic Digital Television Decoder TU-DST51 which I bought really cheap. I went to setup and auto scanned the stations. I get all the major networks except no PBS. I do get a signal from PAX but the channel is not available. Unfrtunatley there is no signal meter. The only problem I have is that some days the signal is great and sometimes its pixilation city!

You don't say what kind of antenna you have, but you may need a better one to get your current receiver to work reliably. There may be *no antenna* that will solve your problems, however.

The reason you got that Panasonic so cheap is because it is a horrible OTA tuner. Replacing it with a quality Zenith of LG model would probably solve all of your reception problems.

Anyone know what happened to my TV stations that used to be listed here?

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=30%2E58567&longitude=%2D91%2E13922&magnetic_north=0&range=60&sort=channel&show_expired=False&show_construction=False&show_analog=True&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

I live on the 15th floor of a condo building in downtown Minneapolis. What would be the best indoor HDTV antenna I could get?

I have been looking at the

samsung TV 5.2 and samsung TV 5.4, but I am open to any antenna that would work well.

I am purchasing the 42" Sony Wega LCD

Please Advise

Thank You

Hope this isn't a stupid question. I am about 30 miles from the transmitters. If I put an antenna outside near the satellite receiver I would be aiming through my neighbors concrete block 2 story house and would have to use one of the smaller antennas. They will not allow an antenna on the front of the house unless I hid it in the flower bed. Which is worse aiming through my neighbors house or putting an antenna in the attic where I only have the shingle roof to deal with?

What would be the best indoor HDTV antenna I could get?


Two of the best indoor antennas: Zenith Silver Sensor, AntennasDirect DB2.

Any amplified antenna is going to blow chunks at your location.

If I put an antenna outside near the satellite receiver I would be aiming through my neighbors concrete block 2 story house and would have to use one of the smaller antennas. They will not allow an antenna on the front of the house unless I hid it in the flower bed. Which is worse aiming through my neighbors house or putting an antenna in the attic where I only have the shingle roof to deal with?

I'd guess you'd be better in the attic. You'd have height and less materials to go through.

But who is this mysterious "they" who think they can tell you where you can put your antenna? The FCC might have something to say about that: http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Thanks for your response on the Indoor Antenna.

Why would any indoor antenna be bad at my condo?

I am on the 15th floor and less that 8 miles from the antenna.

Here are the specs of the antenna I am looking at -

-20dB amplified gain delivers balanced reception throughout UHF
-75 ohm gold-plated connectors
- Height-adjustable base helps prevent unwanted multipath signal corruption for ultra-clear HDTV signal

Has anyone heard reviews of the Samsung TV5.2 or 5.4

Thanks for you help...........

Anyone know what happened to my TV stations that used to be listed here?

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=30%2E58567&longitude=%2D91%2E13922&magnetic_north=0&range=60&sort=channel&show_expired=False&show_construction=False&show_analog=True&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations

Check the box to include expired records; it seems to take the FCC awhile to update their database with new info, so all those records shown to expire 6/1/2005 won't be listed right now without marking that checkbox.

-20dB amplified gain delivers balanced reception throughout UHF


A high power station can easily overload your antenna’s built-in amplifier. An amplifier on the antenna itself is only needed for a long cable run or if your TV has a poor amp.

Would it wreck my TV if I purchase this amplified antenna?

Should I look at another antenna?

Thanks

Would it wreck my TV if I purchase this amplified antenna?

Should I look at another antenna?

Thanks

It is very unlikely you will cause any damage to the TV. It is more likely you simply will not be able to watch anything. I suggest getting a variety of antennas (including the classic $3 loop) from a store with a lenient return policy to try out.

Which antennas would do you recommend?

Everyone that I have talked to has said that I "need to get an Amplified Antenna"

The main reason I am asking is because the one that I am looking at (Samsung TV5.2) is the antenna that was recommended to me by the manager at Best Buy. They are selling it for $100 and it is selling for $5-$15 on Ebay.

I don't want to order it or buy it if it is a bad antenna.

I am very new to all this stuff and don't want to purchase the wrong antenna.

Please advise!

Which antennas would do you recommend?

Everyone that I have talked to has said that I "need to get an Amplified Antenna"

The main reason I am asking is because the one that I am looking at (Samsung TV5.2) is the antenna that was recommended to me by the manager at Best Buy. They are selling it for $100 and it is selling for $5-$15 on Ebay.

I don't want to order it or buy it if it is a bad antenna.

I am very new to all this stuff and don't want to purchase the wrong antenna.

Please advise!

Do you have line-of-sight (LOS) to the transmitting antenna? In another words, can you see the transmitting antenna from the room with the TV? If you do not have LOS, there are too many factors that effect reception that I think trial and error is the best method to find the right antenna. It is possible that amplifying the antenna will improve reception, but it is also possible that the amplifier will make reception worse.

If there are no obstructions between you and Shoreview, you almost certainly do not need an amplified antenna at 8 miles. Both your height and the antenna height will be to your advantage. If there is a building in between you and the towers, you might be able to get a reflected signal from another nearby building, but that's going to be trial and error.

Swing by Sears and pick up a Silver Sensor and give it a try (sold as Zenith brand). I've also seen them at a few Circuit City stores but I don't know about up there. The fact that a Best Buy manager is recommending a $100 antenna that's worth $10 should be a big tip-off.

Since Samsung TV5.2 can be purchased NEW for under $50, BestBuy's price is pure profit.
The Samsung TV5.4 can be purchased NEW for even less (try www.pricegrabber.com).

But both of these are amplified indoor antennas and will be subject to signal overload in your location.

The best UNAMPLIFIED indoor UHF antennas (both under $35 delivered new per www.pricegrabber.com)
are the Zenith ZHDTV1 (Philips PZHDTV1) Silver Sensor ($40 at Sears & WalMart)
or the similiar Terk HDTVi ($47 at Bestbuy, $40 at Circuit City) that has the added benefit of a pair of rabbit ears
that can be adjusted for the best picture with VHF channels (2-13).

Which is worse aiming through my neighbors house or putting an antenna in the attic where I only have the shingle roof to deal with?I'm always amazed at the negative comments about attic antennas. They beat the socks off going outside in nearly every respect and please don't tell ME shingled roofs block out signals up to 90% or even higher. Balderdash with a capital B! My experience shows this is flat out wrong by about 90%; and I feel digital newcomers are too frequently led astray from easy HD solutions in the attic.

Thanks for your help!

I'm always amazed at the negative comments about attic antennas. They beat the socks off going outside in nearly every respect and please don't tell ME shingled roofs block out signals up to 90% or even higher.

Attics present a couple of problems. First, there is usually a fair bit of metal up there, and metal reflects radio waves. Result? Multipath. Secondly, the roofing materials can block a large amount of the signal. 50% is a minimum. Now, that's not 50% on your signal meter on your HD set. That's 50% in absolute, electrical numbers, measured in dB. You will lose a minimum of 3dB of signal by going through roofing, and if your materials are poor, even more. Finally, rooves accumulate moisture (snow/ice) which can absorb, reflect or deflect radio signals.

If I had a dime for every time someone posted a, "Everything worked just fine, but now suddenly I can't get anything" and the problem was related to the install being in an attic, I'd be a wealthy man.

Attics can and do work for many people. But they are less likely to succeed without trial and error, they are more likely to have problems related to variability, and they can introduce problems that you don't have when you're outside. Add to this the fact that you can add 8-10' to your install by being outside (because you don't have a roof in the way), and I think most people should install outdoors. The benefits far outweigh the relatively minor corrosion problems that lead to needing to replace the antenna every ten years or so for optimum performance.

Attics can and do work for many people. But they are less likely to succeed without trial and error, they are more likely to have problems related to variability, and they can introduce problems that you don't have when you're outside. Add to this the fact that you can add 8-10' to your install by being outside (because you don't have a roof in the way), and I think most people should install outdoors. The benefits far outweigh the relatively minor corrosion problems that lead to needing to replace the antenna every ten years or so for optimum performance.


Yes, but one thing about Attic Antennas that I find really nice, is the lack of exposure to wind and lightening. That's worth quite a bit at least to me right there. I think it's more what works for you is what you need to go with, Attic Antennas that work, much easier to maintain and more worry free than an outdoor antenna.

As long as there's OTA reception, I doubt the attic versus outside arguments will ever be resolved. But I just think HD newcomers are often royally poorly served by claims about signal blockage and multipath in attics.

That digital signal has kept its act together for 60, 80, and for me even 125 miles through mind-boggling amounts of particulates, water vapor, air perturbations, etc., etc. and has reached my roof. Is it gonna allow a mere 1/16 inch of shingle, 1 inch of plywood, and maybe 2 inches of snow to block it or knock it out of whack? I don't think so!

I'm always amazed at the negative comments about attic antennas. They beat the socks off going outside in nearly every respect and please don't tell ME shingled roofs block out signals up to 90% or even higher. Balderdash with a capital B! My experience shows this is flat out wrong by about 90%; and I feel digital newcomers are too frequently led astray from easy HD solutions in the attic.
Roofs, including the plywood, shingles, asphalt paper, nails and other materials block as much as 99% of the signal. That's simply fact backed up by actual tests.

But that doesn't mean that 1% of the signal isn't good enough to be processed by a tuner. It does mean that OTHER signals that might be introduced into the antenna don't have to be anywhere near as strong to interfere with the desired signal, though.

A good, directional antenna in an attic may very well be good enough for many people most of the time. But quite often a much lower performing antenna outside will outperform an attic antenna.

Every siutuation is unique, and each person will have to balance the factors they consider important in addition to their specific mounting options and surrounding terrain to determine how to approach installing an antenna.

As long as there's OTA reception, I doubt the attic versus outside arguments will ever be resolved. But I just think HD newcomers are often royally poorly served by claims about signal blockage and multipath in attics.

There is no argument. Outdoor installs are better (at the same height) than indoor ones. Period. Signals do get blocked by roofing materials, and the signal loss may be enough to eliminate reception. Multipath is more of a problem in an attic than in the outdoors.

That isn't to say it can't work. Lots of people do everything "wrong" (including pointing their antenna in the opposite direction) and get reliable, consistent reception. Putting your antenna in your attic is not the ideal. Maybe you can get away with less than the ideal. I can't. I have a 54' tower, a 28db preamplifier (2.5db noise factor) and an Antennas Direct 91XG and I *still* don't get signals reliably from 75 miles away.

I have a 54' tower, a 28db preamplifier (2.5db noise factor) and an Antennas Direct 91XG and I *still* don't get signals reliably from 75 miles away.Perhaps long after you installed the tower, the "sweet spot" for some inexplicable reason has moved 10 feet to the right and down 13 feet for example. Now I know conventional wisdom (CW) may say this can't be; but, having installed my first antenna in the late 70's, I've learned CW should be tossed outside (pardon the pun) and stomped to smithereens when it comes to OTA.

If I ever lose my going on 2 years old rock solid 7/24 digital reception from a bazillion miles away, I'll be in the attic yesterday moving that 4228 around. And I won't worry about rain, wind, lightning, sunburn, falling down, getting neighbors mad, lead-in issues, etc. I often pass houses with antennas reaching to the sky and sometimes think, Did they first try the attic? And I still believe that it may not work every time, but is worth a try as the first step for us HD nuts.

Did they first try the attic? And I still believe that it may not work every time, but is worth a try as the first step for us HD nuts.
Bill,

You know this is not a your right, he's wrong, situation. Right? Anyway, I would totally agree with you. Attic is better. If it works. If the attic won't work, then outside probably will, if a signal is reaching your antenna. I don't really buy the "higher is better" thinking when you are 75 miles from the transmitters. like I and sregener are. At that distance you won't get line of sight unless the transmitters are over 2,000 feet high and your antenna is...what?...4 or 5 hundred feet high. So if the signal is bending or reflecting from the troposhere, it is likely to be just about as strong 50ft up on a tower or 20ft AGL in your attic.

BTW, my 4228 is outside on a 30ft mast. My attic is too small to get into, and I have a metal roof. I did try the 4228 indoors before putting it on the roof. Didn't get any distance stations. I could get the ones that are 20-30 miles away, but not the 75 mile ones.

You know this is not a your right, he's wrong, situation...Neil,
You're exactly right and my main points I tried to make is that the attic has some real advantages, signal blockage may not even exist for many, and try it first.

Having said that, we HD fanatics may argue among ourselves about attic/outside, the awfulness or acceptability of HDLite (and you know where this 19.3 nut stands), Sat. or cable, etc., etc., but we stand united on fuzzy SD vs. HD.

we stand united on fuzzy SD vs. HD.
Amen to that!

I don't really buy the "higher is better" thinking when you are 75 miles from the transmitters. like I and sregener are. At that distance you won't get line of sight unless the transmitters are over 2,000 feet high and your antenna is...what?...4 or 5 hundred feet high. So if the signal is bending or reflecting from the troposhere, it is likely to be just about as strong 50ft up on a tower or 20ft AGL in your attic.

I do buy the "higher is better" line, and so does the installer who put the antenna up at my house. Doubling height above ground level increases your signal by 20dB. I had an antenna on my roof for a couple of years before the tower went up, and I'm telling you that the difference was immediate, obvious, and significant.

For most of us in long-distance situations, we're relying on tropospheric scatter. And for scatter, higher is better.

I do buy the "higher is better" line, and so does the installer who put the antenna up at my house. Doubling height above ground level increases your signal by 20dB. I had an antenna on my roof for a couple of years before the tower went up, and I'm telling you that the difference was immediate, obvious, and significant.

For most of us in long-distance situations, we're relying on tropospheric scatter. And for scatter, higher is better.

In cases with positive interference (constructive wave super-positioning) it is possible for lower to be better. I have a very strong signal when placing the antenna between my house and my neighbor’s. There is one spot where the signal bending around my house, bending around my neighbor’s house and directly from the transmitter all combine (short-distance multi-path). Holding the antenna on the ground produces a stronger signal than on the roof. This is what Neil is referring to as a sweet spot.

In cases with positive interference (constructive wave super-positioning) it is possible for lower to be better... This is what Neil is referring to as a sweet spot.

And they do, in many cases, exist. However, no one has yet been able to predict where a sweet spot will be. The science of RF propogation is rather thin. I've shocked and stunned station engineers with some of my results, but they've all admitted that predicting these things is practically impossible. Still, when doing an antenna installation, it is better to do things "right", or at least the way with the greatest chance of success, first. This saves you time and money. If time (and money) aren't that big of a deal, sure, go ahead and fool around. I'm on my fifth antenna in a house I haven't lived in five years. I don't think most people would put the time and money I did into this, but this is a hobby for me. For anybody else, they'd have given up and paid for cable years ago. Hopefully not after trying an antenna in their attic and getting nothing and then saying, "Well, there's just no signal here."

For most of us in long-distance situations, we're relying on tropospheric scatter. And for scatter, higher is better.Tropospheric scatter doesn't sound very reliable and I'm pretty sure that's NOT what I'm relying on. FWIW, radar is effective at locating storms up to 250 miles away (according to my local TV weatherman); and that makes me wonder about CW concerning 60 miles and then earth curvature kicks in.

Perhaps with all the variables (terrain, atmospheric conditions, unique tower characteristics, wave propagation patterns, hardware), 60 miles may not be ironclad and can be much greater. I wonder if finding the sweet spot often may be as important or more important than higher? I'm not casting any aspersions here or trying to stir up trouble, but just conjecturing about a fascinating subject we all apparently share an interest in.

It seems to me that TV reception and weather radar are two different animals.

For TV, a transmitter sends a signal that must be received at near ground level in order to receive it. After it travels, say 60 miles, it is near ground level, and beyond that, LOS disappears at ground level although the signal still travels on well above ground level and, technically, into outer space. Receiving a signal beyond this 60 mile limit requires antenna height to establish LOS with the transmitter. Think of it as a horizontal line sitting on a half circle, kind of like a teeter totter. The fulcrum, in the middle of the teeter totter is equivalent to ground level. If the transmitter is at one end of the horizontal line, LOS can only be established beyond the fulcrum by antenna height. If you are receiving a signal beyond the fulcrum distance, which is not a standard 60 miles but dependent upon transmitter antenna height and receiving antenna height, then either the signal is bending along the curvature of the earth somewhat (VHF does this more than UHF), the signal is bouncing off something, such as a hill or tall building, or you are benefitting from tropo effects. I receive a UHF digital channel 105 miles away but only (and always) at night or in unusual weather due to tropo during the day.

With weather radar, reception of the radar signal is not required at ground level. The radar signal detects clouds/storms above ground level, say as high as 60000 feet, and receives a bounced signal back to the transmitting site from high altitudes. In my teeter totter example, the weather radar transmitter would be at the fulcrum point, not at one end of the horizontal line. That's why it has a much longer range.

Hope this isn't confusing the situation.

The storm clouds are thousands of feet in the air. Of course the 60mi figure doesn't apply there.

Hey guys, I just recently bought a new HDTV set and I want to get my locals with an OTA antenna. I first tried a phillips from wal mart and while it did fairly ok, I could not get all of my local channels. I took that one back, and went and got the zenith silver sensor. Now, let me tell you that this little thing has pulled in all but one of my local channels. This thing is great! However, I can't pull in my local ABC digital feed for squat. The phillips wouldn't pull it in, and neither will the silver sensor. My local ABC 8.1 is on vhf, now I now the sensor is a uhf antenna, but I was hoping that maybe it would pull in this station. I really want to get this station as in the fall I watch alot of college football on ABC. I'm thinking about ordering the winegard squareshooter. My wife doesn't want some big clunky antenna mounted outside. I know antennas are trial and error but does anyone think I'll be able to pull in this station with the squareshooter? I live in Tulsa, Ok and I looked on antennaweb and it shows this station is like 12 miles from me. Is the squareshooter a better antenna than the silver sensor? Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Hello,

Admittedly i haven't read through all 75 pages of this thread but I have skimmed a few. I have tried my local thread to no avail. I live between Tyler, TX (which only has 1 or 2 HD stations) and Shreveport, LA (which has more) so I am looking at about 50 miles or so for signals. I live out in the country so satellite is my only option. I am thinking about switching to Dish due to the who D* ST fiasco and want to get OTA HD set up while i am at it.

I have some trees around my house (seeing as how it's in the country) but i pick up my satellite reception just fine. Is 50 miles too far for a decent signal or will it work if i have the right antenna?

I went to look at Radio Shack for antennas today and see what they had. I couldn't find the silver sensor but one thing the made me curious was the clip on to the dish antennas? Are even decent or are they total crap? I had thought about maybe an indoor but I read somewhere that those won't work on the 50 mile range that i need to cover for a signal. That and becuase the house the i live in's walls are made of concrete.

so anyway, if anyone can provide a little help i would be grateful. Thanks.

Is 50 miles too far for a decent signal or will it work if i have the right antenna?

...I couldn't find the silver sensor but one thing the made me curious was the clip on to the dish antennas? Are even decent or are they total crap?

50 miles is doable, if you're not totally blocked by hills or mountains. Check antennaweb.org, though. Tyler, TX is about 80 miles from the transmitters in Shreveport, which is very, very hard.

The clip-ons are about the worst outdoor antennas ever made.

Good antenna choices, should you want to try it, are the Channel Master 4228, the Winegard PR-9032, or the AntennasDirect 91XG.

Perhaps long after you installed the tower, the "sweet spot" for some inexplicable reason has moved 10 feet to the right and down 13 feet for example. Now I know conventional wisdom (CW) may say this can't be; but, having installed my first antenna in the late 70's, I've learned CW should be tossed outside (pardon the pun) and stomped to smithereens when it comes to OTA.

If I ever lose my going on 2 years old rock solid 7/24 digital reception from a bazillion miles away, I'll be in the attic yesterday moving that 4228 around. And I won't worry about rain, wind, lightning, sunburn, falling down, getting neighbors mad, lead-in issues, etc. I often pass houses with antennas reaching to the sky and sometimes think, Did they first try the attic? And I still believe that it may not work every time, but is worth a try as the first step for us HD nuts.


Again, congratulations on your fine reception. Please don't consider this typical performance in an attic and continue to recommend it to others as if they can replicate it. Your recommendation is based on your experience alone and yours is a very atypical situation. For the vast majority beyone 30 miles or so, an outdoor antenna will be necessary for stable reception. Under 30 miles, it's probably worth a shot in the attic if you can stand the heat.

Common wisdom is and will remain the best place to start. Where you go from there is up to you.

Yes, but one thing about Attic Antennas that I find really nice, is the lack of exposure to wind and lightening. That's worth quite a bit at least to me right there. I think it's more what works for you is what you need to go with, Attic Antennas that work, much easier to maintain and more worry free than an outdoor antenna.

A nice thing about not having a car is it's cheaper, you get more exercize, and you're less likely to be involved in an accident. Most people still have one, though.

I guess you could also have a car but just never take it outside. That'd make it safer and easier to maintain as well. :)

Again, congratulations on your fine reception. Please don't consider this typical performance in an attic and continue to recommend it to others as if they can replicate it. For the vast majority beyone 30 miles or so, an outdoor antenna will be necessary for stable reception.cp makes a good point and my only concern is that, if I'm new to digital TV and live 40 miles or so from the towers, I won't even try the attic. I'm gonna say cp seems pretty knowledgeable so let's call the Ajax Antenna Co. and have them put one on the roof. So I wonder how many outdoor antennas are owned by people who'll never know if the safety of the attic is doable for them. Say, I wonder if commercial installers even consider suggesting the attic in appropriate cases.

I have some trees around my house (seeing as how it's in the country) but i pick up my satellite reception just fine. Is 50 miles too far for a decent signal or will it work if i have the right antenna?...I had thought about maybe an indoor but I read somewhere that those won't work on the 50 mile range that i need to cover for a signal. That and becuase the house the i live in's walls are made of concrete.If CW is right, I would say to Kevin forget about indoors. However, I wouldn't feel good about that recommendation and would have to say to Kevin at least first give the attic a shot. And who knows how much grief and aggravation from the wife and neighbors this would prevent. Yeah, I know the FCC blah, blah, blah, but most of us want to be good neighbors and it's agony otherwise.

It seems to me that TV reception and weather radar are two different animals...Thanks Mike for some interesting info. The only point I wonder about is that that radar question from my local TV weatherman provided the answer that radar can't detect storms beyond 250 miles because of the earth's curvature. So I'm not sure he was factual and I wonder how the 60 miles was derived.

thanks for the advice so far guys. a couple of points.

firstly i don 't have any nieghbors ( i live in the sticks) or a wife so i don't have to worry aboug annoying anyone :) anyway, i was going to try an indoor antenna but the thing that got me thinking was about the signal. i live in a house that is built into the side of a hill with only one side with an open face. the other three sides are enclosed in the hill. will that affect the reception that an indoor antenna will recieve?

and sregener, thanks for the tips on the clip on's. i actually live about 50 miles from tyler and shreveport so i think i can get both if i get an antenna that will get the reception. i think. thanks for the antenna recommendations. are mutlidirectional ones any good?

are there any stores that have better return policies than others for antennas that don't work once tried out of the box?

So I wonder how many outdoor antennas are owned by people who'll never know if the safety of the attic is doable for them...

Thanks Mike for some interesting info. The only point I wonder about is that that radar question from my local TV weatherman provided the answer that radar can't detect storms beyond 250 miles because of the earth's curvature. So I'm not sure he was factual and I wonder how the 60 miles was derived.

What additional safety is there in an indoor install? Sure, it won't rust. But if the winds are strong enough to cause problems with your antenna, odds are good the roof won't be there, anyway. And a properly grounded antenna is *less* likely to be hit than your house is.

The earth has a curvature to it. That's why, standing on the top of a mountain in Montana, you still can't see China, or the ocean. From "normal" antenna height (approximately 1600 feet) the ground physically blocks line of sight at approximately 56 miles. UHF bends slightly with the curvature of the earth under normal circumstances, so 60 miles is what is known as the "radio horizon." If your antenna is significantly higher, or the transmitting one is, the radio horizon can be extended. Mount Wilson in California, for instance, has LOS for over 120 miles.

And your weatherman must have some impressive radar: http://www.srh.noaa.gov/ridge/doppleru/radinfo.html

The national weather service reports 140 nautical miles as their maximum distance for detecting heavy rain and snow from a ground-mounted radar system.

and sregener, thanks for the tips on the clip on's. i actually live about 50 miles from tyler and shreveport so i think i can get both if i get an antenna that will get the reception. i think. thanks for the antenna recommendations. are mutlidirectional ones any good?

are there any stores that have better return policies than others for antennas that don't work once tried out of the box?

Multidirectional antennas suck for digital reception. Period.

AntennasDirect has an excellent return policy. Radio Shack does, as well. Only one of the two makes great antennas.

Say, I wonder if commercial installers even consider suggesting the attic in appropriate cases.

The only point I wonder about is that that radar question from my local TV weatherman provided the answer that radar can't detect storms beyond 250 miles because of the earth's curvature. So I'm not sure he was factual and I wonder how the 60 miles was derived.

Commercial installers, it they want to do well and stay in business, will do the job so that it provides the most chance of success on the first install. Most will even slightly "overdo" the install for this reason.

Line-of-sight between two points on a sphere is dependent upon the relative elevation of each point as well as the intervening terrain. For thunderstorms and weather that can be up to 60,000 ft. high, this increases line-of-sight significantly even with the radar at relatively low elevation. For TV signals, 60 miles is just a rough average and is based on a smooth curvature. LOS for TV can easily extend to beyond 100 miles given the right conditions.

Commercial installers, it they want to do well and stay in business, will do the job so that it provides the most chance of success on the first install.
Up until about six months ago, I was doing maybe one residential installation a month, and if any prospective customer as much as said that if my proposed installation was the best way to do it, then why did half a dozen people on the internet say otherwise, then that ended the negotiation right then and there. Now, I don't do any, other than for individuals with strong ties to my commercial accounts.

The professional antenna installer HAS to get it right the first time. He can't risk being called by someone six months from now saying that one channel occasional freezes. A number of people on this site have knocked Davis Antenna because Davis refused to do an installation for them, but then, they bought a junk antenna and now enjoy excellent reception. They don't realize, 1) they were lucky, 2) if four out of five too-close-to-call installations wind up satisfying the customer and one does not, the installer will blow the entire profit on the lot servicing the one that doesn't, and 3) if a professional installer declines to do an installation but you then do it yourself and you wind up with very good but not absolutely reliable reception, you will be satisfied, whereas if the professional installation produced very good but not absolutely reliable reception, you often would not be satisfied.

I think the SS1000 alone would be pushing the limits.

I'd go with the SS2000 or an SS1000 and CM7777 to start.

Well, went with the SS2000 and it seems to be working well. Signal strength on NBC is around 70-75, but all the other stations are around 90. Pretty good for being 40 miles out with a one story house.

It was nice to see Nascar on HD! Thanks for the advice!

Paul

Commercial installers, it they want to do well and stay in business, will do the job so that it provides the most chance of success on the first install. Most will even slightly "overdo" the install for this reason.

. . . and that's so totally reasonable. We hobbyists can fool around with different installations, but when I call a pro, I expect the pro to "nuke" the problem. And on that occasion I don't mind paying for a bigger antenna, taller mast, etc., than I might have gotten by with.

(That said, if you have a reasonably accessible attic and want to give it a try, that's something good to do before calling a pro. Even if it doesn't work, it might be useful at some future time. I had an old cable from the attic from some previous fooling around, years ago, and recently took advantage of it to get another station without rotating the antenna, bringing that in with a Join-Tenna to add to what the professional installer had done.)

willie

3) if a professional installer declines to do an instalaltion but you wind up with very good but not absolutely reliable reception, you will be satisfied, whereas if the professional installation produced very good but not absolutely reliable reception, you often would not be satisfied.

I can attest to this. I put a Winegard HD-7084P on my roof after both the professional installers in town told me that I wouldn't get what I wanted with a rooftop install. I did a lot better than what they expected - one of them expressed shock at what I was able to get - but ultimately, I ended up doing a full, professional install with a 54' tower. With my expectations reasonably set, I've been very happy with my tower. But if I had started out expecting perfection, I'd be disappointed with the setup I have now.

Just thought I would post the results of a little experiment I and a friend performed this Saturday afternoon. We went to one of the higher points in central Washington State that is accessible by road and set up my Sammy T150 receiver, an LCD monitor and a tripod. On the tripod we mounted a Radio Shack 15-2160 yagi and later a CM 4221. There were two clusters of DT towers we were after. One being Spokane, WA - 110 miles away and the tri-cities area near the Columbia River (84 miles away). Our elevation was about 2200 feet and the transmitters all average about 2500 feet above sea level. To our amazement, we pulled in steady signals from 3 stations in Spokane and 4 in the tri-cities area (all UHF). The 4221 and the 15-2160 worked about equally well with the edge going to the RS unit by a tad. Nether of these are high-gain units. Only one of the 7 stations is at 1-MW ERP. Most are in the 200 kW range, one at 47 kW. Being done in the middle of the day it unlikely there was much (if any) help from atmospheric ducting. Using an LOS calculator one can find that given the heights involved, we could have been as much as 137 miles apart before the "average earth" gets in the way. Fortunately there is nothing but flatland between us and the towers. Our attempts to pick up Seattle stations yielded only an occasional blip on the T150's signal meter. Considering the Cascade Mountains are in the way, that is about what we expected. So, as in real estate, the 3 most important things for DT are location, location, location (or elevation, elevation, elevation :) ). This more or less proved the theory that you don't need a 1 MW signal to go a long ways. The 47 KW station at 84 miles was rather pixelated at times but watchable. The others showed no breakups over a 15-minute period. So never accept the "it can't be done" answer until you try it.