Please post your experiences with antennas, preamps, all related equipment, and installation experiences. Indoor & outdoor. To include mounting, cabling, connectors, rotors, etc.

- Be specific; brands, models, sources, prices, etc.

- What works, what doesn't, and why?

- Tricks of the trade, and unique solutions.

Thanks in advance for your participation. AVS is only as good as it's members, and our members are the best.

99.44% of the time, the following apply:

- Bigger is better

- Higher is better

- Outside is better

- Directional is better

Originally posted by Ken H
99.44% of the time, the following apply:

- Bigger is better

- Higher is better

- Outside is better

- Directional is better

Ken,you are sooooo right.Thanks for heading up this thread.I'll start it out with one of the best setups for UHF reception...and I've tried 'em all<g>

Lots of pics and nice links for valuable info.

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/CurrentUHFTower/

I’m a newbie and have been bugging the fine people in the “Nearly Official Portland, OR DTV” thread. Figured I’d make a quick post here, to see if I could get any more opinions and/or help. For more detail on my situation, see pages 90 & 91 of the Portland thread.

I am in a bad reception area … only 11 miles from the Portland towers for all of the locals, but I am behind a hill (antennaweb.org says I shouldn’t be able to receive anything). I have a big Radio Shack VU-190XR antenna in my attic (of a multi-story house) pointed in the direction of the towers. I have tried an attenuator (didn’t help) and a RS line amplifier, which seemed to help a bit. I am using a new D* Hughes box. While I am getting decent to good reception of all of the analog locals, my only constant success on the digital side is with ABC. I am able to get a strong signal from CBS, NBC, WB, and UPN from time to time, but never all at the same time (usually just one or two of them along with ABC). I have not been able to get the digital versions of PBS or FOX at all, despite being able to get the analog signals decently well (and the fact that their tower are in the same place as the other stations).

Of course, the next logical step would probably be to go with an outdoor antenna, but I have a few concerns. I need an antenna that isn’t too big or ugly, for the wife factor. Most people are recommending the Channel Master 4228 or 4221, but I was hoping for something a little “more pretty.” I’m also concerned that if I buy one and it doesn’t work, that I won’t be able to return it (not to mention being out the installation fee I’m going to have to pay someone to go up on my three-story roof!)?

Any suggestions of equipment to buy or things to try would be greatly appreciated. Is it wishful thinking (based on what I’ve described) that I’d be able to mount one small outdoor antenna to catch all of my locals?

Thanks. :D

What channels (actual) are the DTV channels on there in Portland ? Radio Shack antennas are pretty weak above 40 - the usual brands (Winegard / ChannelMaster) are much better up here. You may also need to get a pre-amp - get one of the Winegards / Channelmasters.

Otherwise - there is no substitute for getting your OTA antenna outside, especially in a potentially marginal situation like yours - no matter how big or ugly it is (ugly is in the eyes of the beholder - I personally would prefer to measure this on my screen :) ). It comes down to - do you want HDTV OTA or not ?

I started with a CM 3021 4-way bowtie in my attic. I chose an attic installation for a few reasons. First I did not want to climb on top of the house and worry about mounting something to withstand wind. Second I did not want the expense of a professional mount. Third I did not want an eyesore. I figured my altitude near the top of Mine Hill would help things. My results were that I was able to get CBS, ABC, and FOX out of New York, and PBS out of Montclair, NJ. I could not get NBC on ch. 28 or the WB on ch. 12.

I was talking to a friend who wanted an antenna so he took the 3021 off my hands and I then bought a 4228 and a CM 7777 amp. I now get WNBC on ch.28. Still no WPIX on 12. If anyone has any ideas on the best cheap way to get ch.12 from here I would like to hear them.

I have about 60 feet of RG6 from the mast mounted preamp to the Samsung TS-360 STB.

I really wanted Philadelphia channels instead and I can sometimes get KYW on ch.26 but that is it. I am now wondering if a roof mount pointed at Philly would get me those stations. So much for limiting expense ... this is addicting.

Thanks to all on these forums ... you have helped me a lot.

I have a really newbie question, so sorry if it sounds dumb. But what in the world is the difference between a Preamp and an Amp? Are they two different terms for the same thing?

Thanks

Our home is located within 800' of one of the largest VHF towers in the county as well as a smaller tower (microwave, cell, etc.). (There are no hills or other appurtenances nearby.) When building the house I realized there could problems with OTA issues and tried to install the best hardware using RG6QS for all runs in the home-run based system. Everything has worked fine with a Radio Shack attic mounted antenna tying into the satellite/OTA system with a whole house distribution modulator to distribute the satellite to each location. I purchased a Samsung SIR-T151 decoder and connected it via a splitter/combiner to my main feed from the attic antenna with poor results. (Only one of the 3 local dtv/hdtv providers had an acceptable signal strength.) I then purchased a Zenith Silver Sensor which I combined in the attic with the same poor results. I then connected the Zenith antenna directly to the Samsung unit and all of the stations were fine (with a little tweaking to receive the station that transmits from the tower by my house).

I'd be fine with the Zenith perched in my indoor palm plant by the Samsung unit but my wife objects so any advice on a possible cause/cure would be appreciated. :)

I have just signed up for Voom to come out and install their equipment at my house in Newport News, VA. My house is close to an airport and I would like to know if the antenna that Voom install would work fine since its multidirectional or would I have to get install a directional myself. Please help since I am a newbie to satellite TV.

The Dish installed by VOOM will NOT get OTA reception - that will require a REGULAR TV antenna aimed at your locals stations' transmitter towers.

I live in Southern Spartanburg County in SC , my setup is 2 rat shacks. 1 uhf/vhf 190 model and a uhf yagi that they discontinued that is about as long as the vhf/uhf antenna.i have rat shack mast mounted pre-amps for both with the inside power injectors.the yagi is aimed for the greenville-spartanburg stations and the vhf/uhf is aimed toward columbia, i can also aim it cowards charlotte NC. i get all my locals with an 80-88 signal strength. columbia channels i get are wolo-dt(abc)avg 85-94,wis-dt(nbc) and wach-dt(fox),but fox only comes in after dark. from charlotte i get wbtv-dt(cbs),wcnc-dt(nbc),the upn station.the WB station and sometimes wccb-dt(fox). The only network that I don't get in a satisfactory manner is FOX, the local FOX station is owned by Meredith and refuses to even pass on the FOX widescreen programming at all.The other FOX stations that i get on occasion are both passing on FOX wide screen and do a good job, but alas I don't get them good enough to delete WHNS-DT from my channel list.

Originally posted by Scooper
The Dish installed by VOOM will NOT get OTA reception - that will require a REGULAR TV antenna aimed at your locals stations' transmitter towers. VOOM installs an OTA antenna when they install their satellite dish antenna. However, you may need a better one than the "easy-install" type they use.

Originally posted by flashbacck
I have a really newbie question, so sorry if it sounds dumb. But what in the world is the difference between a Preamp and an Amp?A preamp has two parts - the amp and the power supply. The amp is typically installed as close to the antenna as possible, "before" the coax run; hence the name preamp. The power supply is usually installed behind the TV or STB, but may be installed elsewhere in the coax run (i.e. attic)....

An "amp" is a 1-piece unit and most of the consumer ones must be installed indoors. Since best results are usually obtained by putting the amp as close to the antenna as possible (to prevent amplifying noise introduced in the coax), a preamp usually works better.

Originally posted by offandon
... I then bought a 4228 and a CM 7777 amp. I now get WNBC on ch.28. Still no WPIX on 12. If anyone has any ideas on the best cheap way to get ch.12 from here I would like to hear them...Remove the 4 screws and open the case of the CM 7777. Change the internal Input switch from "Combined" to "Separate" antennas. Then, connect a VHF antenna to the CM7777 preamp's VHF input. Leave the 4228 on the UHF input.

Depending on distance and station power, you may only need rabbit ear dipoles laid flat and extended to the correct length (try each dipole @ ~13.5" or ~27"), or you may need an "outdoor" VHF antenna for channels 7-13 (http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/y10713.htm).

For a really cheap channel 12 attic antenna, I made one for a friend using two 13.5" lengths of coat hanger wire attached to a small wooden block, using 2 screws. I attached a 300/75 ohm balun under the screws, and connected the coax between the balun and the CM 7777 preamp. He receives our local (27kw) channel 12 DTV station @ 100%.

YMMV, of course.

Thanks ... I have a pair of rabbit ears I will try for ch. 12. If that is a no go I will look for a better VHF antenna. I appreciate the help.

I use the Radio Shack VU-210XR antenna on a 25' mast with a rotor. The antenna originally was $199.00 but was disco'd by RS and I picked it up for $7.99. Many others here did the same. It is a bad boy. It works very well. I am about 20 miles from the Chicago transmitters and pick up all of my local digitals with ease. I highly recommend this antenna if you can find one. It is big.

I think I know the answer but I'll just put the question out there ....

what is the best solution to a bad multipath problem?

(Terrain: hilly, forest nearby, townhouses; antenna: SilverSensor; preamp: channelmaster 7777; tuner: Dish 811)

AcuraCL:

Horizontally stacked antennas.

See:

www.atechfabrication.com

You may want to check out AVS forum sponsor, www.antennasdirect.com

Have had great success with their DB4.

Products that work:

Channel Master 9521A
Antenna rotator with infrared remote control
Programmable for up to 69 stations
Internet pricing from $70-$90, plus shipping

http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/TVS/rc1.htm

My situation:

WJAC-DT (NBC) 250 kW Ch 34 at 68 miles
WTAJ-DT (CBS) 3.3 kW Ch 32 at 34 miles
WATM-DT (ABC) 2.0 kW Ch 24 at 34 miles
WPSX-DT (PBS) Single Frequency Network Ch 15 at 7.9 miles/28 miles

My location is State College, PA, and I'm pointing towards Altoona/Johnstown for OTA. My house is situation such that I am aiming over downtown State College.

I started with a CM 4228 and a RatShack pre-amp. With this setup getting the three closest channels was a breeze but WJAC-DT just didn't come in well enough to lock-in. At the suggestion of a member here I ordered a set of Triax Unix 100 Band A antennae from the United Kingdom and tried just one at first. This was an improvement but not enough to stay locked in on WJAC-DT. I added a second Unix 100A in a vertical stack and had better results but still not satisfactory.

A few weeks ago an order I had placed with Warren Electronics in December showed up at my door with a CM7777 in it. I placed this up on the roof in conjunction with the stacked Unix 100A's and am now locked in to WJAC-DT about 96-98% of the time. I still get some drop outs and break ups and I think I'm fighting some sort of overload as there is a pattern to the drop outs on an analog channel 19 at 84 miles on the same azimuth as the other stations I am aiming for.

The 4228 appears to be about 12-13 dB gain at 600 Mhz, channel 35, while the Unix 100A's are about 17 dB. Tied together as I have them I should be in the neighborhood of 19.5 dB gain.

Overall I am pretty impessed with my reception of the low power digitals at 34 miles over hilly terrain and downtown. I moved the CM4228 to my parent's house which is 4 miles closer to both Altoona and Johnstown and on the other side of downtown State College and had nearly identical results to those at my house.

My next project is to try to get WHP-DT on channel 4 from Harrisburg at 59 miles. They're only transmitting at 2.35 kW so I'm not sure what kind of success I might have but the terrain path from my house to Harrisburg is more favorable than that from my house to WJAC-DT.

I'm using an RS VU-120XR, w/ rotator, no preamp. Tried it in the attic but signal wasn't consistent. I bought all the equipment (~$150) and had Fairfax Antenna (~$200) put it up on my roof ( 40' to the peak & 45 degree pitch). It's on a tripod with about 15' of mast and three guy wires. Used RG6QS. Everthing is WELL grounded. Feeding a Dish 6000.

After a couple of years I added a RS 15-1196, 1 in to 2 Bi Directional Amp, to split the signal to a second Dish 6000. A preamp did not improve my signal, but this amp did.

I'm getting outstanding reception from D.C. (35mi) and Baltimore (60mi). I think a lot of my success is due to being several hundred feet above sea level.

I went with the UHF/VHF setup playing the odds that some of the stations will revert back to their VHF signals for digital when everything shakes out.

I need to pull in stations from about 40 miles away (see below) and I must install the antenna in the attic for cosmetic reasons. I'm a newbie to all this, so your experienced suggestions are greatly appreciated...

uhf WYDN-DT 47 DAY WORCESTER MA 04-04 161° 38.3
uhf WSBK-DT 38.1 UPN BOSTON MA 162° 37.7
uhf WNDS-DT 35.1 IND DERRY NH 115° 13.0
uhf WUNI-DT 29.1 UNI WORCESTER MA 202° 30.0
uhf WUTF-DT 66.1 TFA MARLBOROUGH MA 179° 27.5
uhf WMFP-DT 18 SAH LAWRENCE MA FCC Ext 161° 38.3
uhf WGBH-DT 2.1 PBS Boston MA 162° 37.7
uhf WGBX-DT 44.1 PBS Boston MA 162° 37.7
uhf WFXT-DT 25.1 FOX Boston MA 161° 38.6
uhf WCVB-DT 5.1 ABC Boston MA 162° 37.7
uhf WHDH-DT 7.1 NBC Boston MA 160° 38.3
uhf WBPX-DT 32 PAX BOSTON MA Awaiting FCC Permit 161° 38.3
uhf WBZ-DT 4.1 CBS Boston MA 162° 37.7
uhf WLVI-DT 56.1 WB Cambridge MA 161° 38.6

I only want the stations in the 161-162° direction, so what do I need to pull them in consistently?

~ Fred

RagerXS, depending on your roof, decking and wall construction materials, an attic install may not be reliable.

Originally posted by Belcherwm
...
I went with the UHF/VHF setup playing the odds that some of the stations will revert back to their VHF signals for digital when everything shakes out.
'
What is your source for this belief?

I read on the FCC web site that they are reallocating the VHF band to public safety.

If some stations move to VHF it won't be for quite some time.

We have one VHF digital and another one will be on the air by this summer. And two other local VHF analog stations here have told me they plan to move their UHF DTV channel to their VHF assignment, when analog is shut off.

The TV channels that will go away after the analog shutoff are UHF channels 52 - 69, not VHF. Article here (http://broadcastengineering.com/ar/broadcasting_beyond_headlines_channel/)

.

That article suggests there will be pressure for the *analog* stations to move from 52-69 after 2006, it doesn't really address digital stations with those frequency assignments, or am I reading it wrong?

Charles

Digital stations on 52-69 will have to return to their analog channel number, or petition the FCC for a new assignment after analog shuts off. A very small number of stations have both analog and digital channels above 51, and presumably the FCC will give them a new channel between 2-51.

As far as getting a VHF antenna if all of your digitals are UHF, I say don't worry about it unless you want VHF analog reception or FM reception. You'll be fine for sure for at least a few years with a UHF antenna, and if your stations switch back, you can always add a VHF only antenna to your setup. Most antennas aren't that expensive.

Originally posted by jckessler
... As far as getting a VHF antenna if all of your digitals are UHF, I say don't worry about it unless you want VHF analog reception or FM reception. You'll be fine for sure for at least a few years with a UHF antenna, and if your stations switch back, you can always add a VHF only antenna to your setup...If you need a preamp, go ahead and get a VHF+UHF preamp (http://www.channelmaster.com/Pages/TVS/TitanAmp.htm), with a dedicated VHF input. That will make it easy to add a separate VHF antenna later.

The only issue with that is FINDING a VHF only antenna now - I have one - bought a couple of years ago.

There are several online sources. They're not expensive at all.

I have a rather unique situation here. I live in San Francisco about 3/4 of a mile from Sutro Tower where 10 UHF digital stations are located, about 4 miles from the transmitters of two other UHF digitals, about 30 miles from two other UHFs, 45 miles from three other UHF stations and 55 from a VHF station.

I put up a CM4228 with a rotor, plus a Winegard 3113 for channel 12. I really don't need the outside antenna for the Sutro stations, but I'm able to find spots where they all come in okay. Trouble is, they all don't come in from the same direction, so I've had to label the rotor with the channel numbers. I find the 4228 to be VERY directive, and it doesn't allow much room for play one way or the other. A rotor is a must!

I get all 17 of those UHF stations with the 4228 except for one problem station. Channel 27 on Mt. San Bruno, just 4 miles away, won't come in at all! My antenna must be in a null for it. The other station up there on San Bruno comes in fine.

I get the VHF channel 12 station solid with the Winegard.

18 digital stations, yes, but it's a major headache for setting up a recording while watching something else. It's often impossible to get the two stations I want with the same antenna heading, and trying to record two programs back to back on different channels is a real challenge.

You folks that can set you antenna in one direction and get all the stations are really lucky!

If I run my HiPix card through the signal strength routine, I see four other digital stations that show very low signal levels in here, but they've never been strong enough to give me a picture. Two are in Sacramento, about 50 miles away over a mountain range, and two are in Santa Rosa, 63 miles away. I bet I'd get those too, if I added a preamp.

Larry
San Francisco

Originally posted by Scooper
The only issue with that is FINDING a VHF only antenna now - I have one - bought a couple of years ago.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/VHF%20channel%20listings.htm

Check out the V4 VHF only antenna.

That website is incorrectly showing channels 2-8 as "lowband" VHF. Channels 2-6 are lowband VHF. 7-13 are "highband" VHF.

I am just starting to play around with OTA DTV and need some advice on tweaking my signal. Here are the facts:

- I live in Atlanta, GA and I am less than 7 miles away from all major station distribution points.

- All stations are in about a 30 degree spread from my point.

- I have a old antenna installed in my attic that was left by a previous owner. I ran new coax cable from the antenna to my outlet. It is about a 100ft of cable. Only running to one outlet, not split.

- I have the antenna pointed in the direction of the station cluster.

- With my receiver, the Samsung SIR-T151, I get all the stations I care about. In general when I check the signal strength it indicates that I am right in the middle.

- On occasion, loose the signal and or get pixelization. I have not done a real detailed test on this so it is hard to say what channels are worse.

My general question is what else can I do to boost my signal strength? Will a pre-amp help in this situation?

A preamp is a good idea any time you exceed a 25' cable run. I noticed a drop of about 6% (on the receiver signal meter) when I went from a 6' cable to a 50' cable, so you could be losing much more of the signal.

W,

A preamp will probably cause you problems. They tend to work better when you are at a greater distance from the transmitter. I would think that an amplifier or a distribution amp would be better for signal loss due to your cable run. Did you make sure you have a good connection at the antenna?

Thanks for the advice. I double checked my connections and tweaked the antenna direction a bit. I seem to be now getting a slightly stronger signal but the signal also seems more stable. I watched the entire NCAA Final last night with out a hitch. I saw no pixelization. It seems that my signal is not that bad after all.

If I were to use an indoor amplifier, what tips would you offer on power, placement, etc... Why is an amplifier differerent from a preamp? At the moment I am only running my cable to one tv. I could see where I would want to split that and run it to other rooms in the house.

W Auggie H,

I live about the same distance (5-6 miles) from my local tv towers here in Indy. Over the past two years I have experimented with various antennas and I have tried them in different locations, too. I didn't have much luck with them in the attic. I found it virtually impossible to find one location that would give strong signal results on all stations. I have had much better success with the antennas outside.

I do have a Channel Master preamp (7777) on my antenna setup but it is not for the local stations. It is to help with a few stations that are 40 to 65 miles away. I've found that my reception of the locals is usually much better WITHOUT the preamp. The preamp sometimes tends to overload the local signals. I've even seen some local DTV stations completely black out or show "0" (zero) signal on the STB from too much signal. The STB was simply overloaded.

At your distance from the towers I would tend to believe that your problem is probably with your antenna and/or the location of the antenna. You should have plenty of signal strength in your location to receive these local stations. The signal to your STB will only be as good as what the antenna is capable of producing. Also, your dropouts could be caused from multipath, with your strong signals bouncing around and off of other buildings, trees, etc. This condition seems to be even worse with weather changes, like windy conditions (trees moving around), rain, etc. Have you noticed any of these weather factors during your dropouts?

Just my two cents.

Steve

Steve,

Thanks for your 2 cents. I think you have provided a very good explanation of some of my questions. It is entirely possible that my dropouts were a result of some wind and or adverse weather. You see, in my neighborhood we have several large Oak trees that could very well be causing some of that multipath as you suggest. After moving some things around I seem to have a pretty sold signal and I think there is only one station that I don't get but I don't care about it. It would seem that if I want to take any more steps to improve my signal stability moving the antenna outside may be the best thing to do. Thanks again for your explanation.

William

This link is a good read for us folk:

Pete Putman's Antenna article (http://www.hometheatermag.com/accessories/156/)

In it, Mr. Putman provides a solution to multipath using two Yagi style antenna’s. I didn’t even think multipath could be a rural problem until Steve’s post above (trees). My dropouts do correlate with wind.

I have a CM 4228 coming and look forward to posting in this sticky. Great idea, Ken!
My sitch:
-5.5 miles from towers at 40 and 51 degrees carrying all desired UHF stations.
-Despite relative short distance a Silver Sensor can’t give decent strength on frequencies 56 and 30 (WB, CBS)
-A current question would be what’s better: A 150-200ft run of rg6 and a clear line of site, or a 50ft run with the threat of multipath and a less than clear line of site? I have a berm behind my house and could mount the, somewhat omni-directional, CM 4228 high up on a tree.

woodgab...

That article is very informative, but I didn't see anything about using 2 yagi's to reduce multipath. Can you point me in the right direction?

Sorry, I thought it was in that article. If I find where I spotted it, I’ll post a link, but basically the solution was to set up both Yagi’s in parallel and stagger one behind the other just so that the first couple elements of the one overlapped the last couple elements of the other. AFAIK, there was no mention of how far apart the two antennas should be. I tried to draw it buy it wasn't working.

Olysan,
Horizontal stacking in general is a way to deal with multipath. At http://www.atechfabrication.com you can see examples of this. This gentleman is receiving signals over a mountain which is frought with multipath problems. You can also search Google for "horizontal antenna stacking" and I think you'll find the other link on stagger stacking. If it were me, I'd try the basic horizontal stack first before getting really fancy. I'm currently using two Televes DAT 75's horizontally stacked at 57 inches (spacing recc. by Televes) with good results.

Charles

Does anyone have a list of all available OTA HDTV recievers?

cp cat where did you get your Televes antennas?

I am having great difficulty with my ota (55 miles+ from transmitters) and am open to trying anything. I have altrady tried 4 models from my local Circuit City and Radio shack and the Channelmaster favorites with no luck. I will try Antennas Direct, maybe I'll have better luck with them.

Ledger,

Here's a link to Televes. http://www.stardubai.com/telantUHFPro.htm

Ledger,
I ordered from Ruth Wigmore at CPC in the U.K.
Email is Internationalsales@cpc.co.uk.
Website is http://custom1.farnell.com/cpc/

They came in 3 days. Shipping is fairly expensive, though.

Charles

P.S.
I'm getting WETP PBS-HD at 64 miles and only 4.8kw fairly consistently. Don't underestimate the importance of terrain factors, though. No guarantees but I can confidently say my reception is now better than with the CM 4228 at the same position and height.

I spent the afternoon yesterday putting up a CM 3679 with a 9521A rotator and a 7777 preamp.

According to antennaweb, I'm about 15 miles from my local stations in DC
and about 45 miles from Baltimore and Annapolis (PBS). I've always
gotten Balt and Annapolis on analog with some snow but never digital. My
house is single story between two two-story homes with trees.

I had installed my last antenna about 12 years ago, a Radio Shack
'suburban' VHF/UHF antenna (similar to a CM 3016). I also installed a separate FM antenna on the same pole. The TV signal was split to feed two rooms. There was no amplifier and the antenna was fixed pointing essentially toward DC.

I had intended to reuse the same chimney mount and pole for the new
antenna and rotor. But when I got everything on the roof I found that
the old pole which was in sections had rusted together. Also, the
chimney mount bolts were heavily rusted as well as the old antenna
mounting bolts. So I removed the old antennas (broke rusted bolts), pole
and mounts and made a trip to Radio Shack. I returned with a new chimney mount kit and two 5' poles.

The new mount went up uneventfully. To prevent rust, I spray painted it
with some Krylon I had lying around. The 9521A rotor is well-built. It requires a 3-wire cable for connectivity. The wire does not have to be very large, but the longer the cable run the heavier the cable. Mine was 18-guage since my run was short. The instructions with the rotor state that the antenna should be no more than 3' about the rotor for stability and wind loads. Also, the rotor should be installed so that an arrow on the case points North. A 5' pole placed the rotor above the top of the chimney. I cut a 3' section from the remaining pole for the antenna.

The 3279 comes in two sections. It is jointed with two machine screws
and wingnuts. There are two metal 'rods' that join the VHF section to
the UHF section electrically and are also attached with wingnuts. Once
the two sections are joined, the antenna is over 10' long but is not
heavy. The unit also has a balun (300 to 75ohm transformer) and mounting bracket. I attached the mounting bracket to the pole, attached the 75-ohm antenna lead to the balun, attached a standoff and raised the
antenna and installed it in the rotor, making sure it was pointing due
North. I attached additional standoffs to the pole and ran the existing
antenna wire down the pole and down the wall of the house as before.

[I left the FM antenna for later on.]

At this point I wanted to see if the signal had improved without adding
the 7777 amp so I climbed down to finish the rotor install. I ran the
wire through the wall where the old cable entered the house. I connected
the 3 wires to the back of the 9521 controller and powered it up. Since
this was the first time it was powered, it went through SYNC function
which turns the rotor to '0' degrees. The control unit is not very big,
about like a paper-back novel. It has an infrared remote and is powered
by a brick transformer with a 4' cord. You enter a degree (000-360) for
direction and it starts turning immediately. The unit can also be
programmed by channel number to remember the direct it needs to point.
With this and the right kind of programmable remote you could have the
dish move whenever a channel change is sent to your tuner.

I commanded the rotor to point toward the towers and then checked the digital signal meter in my ATSC tuner (Samsung TS160). I was disappointed to see that the signal level had not improved that much (from about 66% to 75%). I checked other stations that I could not received before and also there was no joy.

So I pulled the 7777 out of the box. This unit comes in two parts, an outdoor amp and an indoor power supply. The outdoor amp attaches to the pole near the antenna. The indoor power supply provides DC voltage to the amp. The 7777 has switches inside for setting an FM trap as well as VHF and UHF amplification. The default is for FM trap Active and both VHF and UHF amplification active. I used the defaults. Since by now it was dark I installed the amp inside for now just to see the difference in signal.

With the amp, signals that had been %60-%70 went to %100. WMPT HDTV signal in Annapolis came in where it had not been before. Unfortunately, I was not able to get any of the Baltimore digital channels.
:(

To complete the installation, I will move the amp up to the pole. I will also move the splitter to the second set. The original pole was ground but I need to move it to a better location. And I think I'll use an old sat dish pole mount for the FM antenna.

weedeater,

You should be able to get Balt with your setup. I'll be interested to see the performance change when you get the preamp closer to the antenna.

I have two locations I would like to feed from my main rooftop antenna, and I know how to use a splitter to do it, with the associated signal loss :( .

But, as it turns out, one of the locations is our home theater area where we do most of our viewing, and the second is in a less used loft. Therefore:

What if I run the antenna cable into my home theater's Zenith HDV420, then out the "RF out" loop on that receiver, through the in-house RG6 wiring, to the "RF in" of the loft receiver?

1.) Will I have avoided the splitter loss -- at the first location, maybe?

and

2.) if there is a loss from having "RF out" active on my main receiver, wouldn't I just be able to unhook the "RF out" from the Zenith HDV420 when going after a distant signal and get that full strength? . . . while cheating the secondary loft viewers, obviously?

Thanks,

Doug

giantcycle,
You are correct in your assumptions. However, you may find that if you're using a preamp that the extra gain will allow you to use a splitter without affecting the signal strength enough to cause a problem anyway. Just be sure the split is after the preamp and the preamp is outside on the antenna as close as possible to the source. If you're not using a preamp, you may need to consider one to split to two or more locations.

Charles

P.S. You also need to split after the preamp power supply unless you use a splitter that passes DC.

Update.

I moved the 7777 up to the pole. I also removed the splitter. This made a huge difference. Where I was not able to get Baltimore stations before, I now have them at 75%-85%.

So now the antenna signal goes into the amp then to the power supply for the amp, then to a splitter. The two signals then go to the livingroom and bedroom TVs. The analog Toshiba in the bedroom never had such a clean picture. Must be spring because all the snow is gone!

weedeater,

Congratulations! Enjoy DD5.1 on WMAR.

Here is my current antenna. This stuff is alot of work but well worth it. I'm between 50-70 miles from locals. I initially had a CM4228 and CM Stealthtenna but with the upgrade have now picked up FOX as well as PBS-HD both at about 65 miles. My VHF CBS is much stronger and more solid as well. You have to save the zipped file and then open it to see the pictures. For some reason it won't open for me directly. I wanted to post the pictures in a more central area on the site but there doesn't seem to be an area for antenna setups in the photo gallery.

Televes DAT 75's x 2 57 inch spacing (UHF)
Antennacraft Y10-7-13(VHF HB)
CM7777 preamp
CM9251 rotor
RG 6 at antenna
Lindsay UHF combiner
RG 11 downlead
CM 30 ft. telescoping mast installed upside down

Charles

You can never open zip's directly... you have to save/open, on AVS. Something to do with temp space?

Sound (and looks!) like a great rig, especially that RG-11, great for a long run!

I am in a suburban area and local channels are short to mid-range in distance.

My Samsung 360 HDTV Receiver automatically selects the station via scan.

With a directional antenna, as I have, what may I be missing?

I have little use for the analog channels. Rotating the antenna is a pain...I'd rather surf.

Is multi-path much of a problem with local HDTV signals?

Has anyone experimented with an omni-directional antenna/amp such as those designed for RV use? If the local channels can lock on that without much of a multi-path problem, why not?

I have attempted to scan this thread for info - pardon please if I have missed significant comments.

Anyone here have the new DB8 antenna? I was wondering how ell it was performing. Its 100 bucks at antenna direct. I was thinking of upgrading from my stealth to the db8. Anyone have any experience with it?

Looks eerily similar to the CM 4228 to me which can be had for half the price. Either would be an upgrade from the Stealth (not very good on UHF).
I can personally vouge for the 4228, a very good value. It has very similar gain specs (for what that's worth) to those claimed by the DB8.

Charles

I can vouch for the DB8.

It has very substantial construction with a relatively flat gain curve and a broader beam width than the 4228.

It is not an apples to apples comparison, and is worth the money if you are on a deep fringe location

I probably didnt need th DB8...maybe I could have gone with the DB4 but Im growing tired of trying Antennas that arent good enough. I wanted the strongest UHF gain that isnt directional. The DB8 attracted me because it covers an area of 90 degrees from where the Ant is pointed. Maybe I could pick up everything that is coming from NYC without having to adjust it for the best sig. Either way its a clear upgrade from the Stealth.

The wider beamwidth can also be a disadvantage in dealing with multipath.
With everything there's a tradeoff, it seems. Good Luck.
Charles

Yeah, it all depents on where you are. Some around here (No Va) can use the wider beam to get Balt and Wash without a rotator. Others will suffer multipath from that. One more reason to bite the bullet and call in the pros. :)

I live in a hotel. The hotel has directtv as well as a local uhf and a vhf antenna I believe. I have an accessdtv card and a silver sensor. The hotels antenna and satellite go into a distribution system where the channels are lined up for a closed system inside the building. I don't know if its possible to add a filter or trap (or something else.. not to clear on the terminology to use here...) and route that signal from the antenna directly to my room... might be possible...

But most probable would be improving my reception. The stations are pretty close (less than 10 miles from me)

* red - uhf KXAN-DT 36.1 NBC AUSTIN TX 260° 5.7miles
* red - uhf KVUE-DT 24.1 ABC AUSTIN TX 258° 6.0miles
* red - uhf KTBC-DT 7.1 FOX AUSTIN TX 248° 5.5miles
* red - uhf KNVA-DT 54.1 WB AUSTIN TX 260° 5.7miles
* red - uhf KEYE-DT 42.1 CBS AUSTIN TX 258° 6.0miles
* red - uhf KLRU-DT 22.1 PBS Austin TX 260° 5.7miles

because of where my room is I can usually get at best 1 channel in with 70% peak. (not sure which right now as I am typing this from work) Accessdtv will "find" mostly all of these. If I change the direction im pointing it sometimes will get another channel but the other might come in lower or not at all.

Another issue is something about the cable attached to the antenna. Sometimes if I place the cable coming from the back "over" the back dipoles of the antenna it gives it a little boost to the reception..

I have a desk stereo that runs close to the cable and I am not sure if that is part of the problem or not. Another idea is that I might be able to improve reception with a preamp or amp.. not sure.. Any ideas?

If you have an idea please let me know in laymans terms or have a specific product recomendation include a model... I thank you in advance for any ideas..

I have a CM 4228 and a DB8. Seems like the DB8 has marginally better reception where I'm at.

All stations are 16-17°. All at 35.7-36.4 miles.

I'm in west Michigan, and I can recieve all of the Grand Rapids stations just fine. Last Thursday, I was able to recieve some DTV stations from Green Bay, Chicago and South Bend, but at about 9:45 PM on Friday they all disappeared. Since then I have not been able to recieve any of them, only an occasional blip from WSBT when the antenna is pointed at it.

Does anyone have any idea what could cause this, or how I could get those stations back in? Here's what I'm using, if it matters:

Antennas: Terk TV35 UHF/VHF mounted atop a quad-bowtie UHF of unknown origin
Preamp: Channelmaster 3041
Antenna position: 10ft above ground, outside next to the house
Tuner: pcHDTV HD-2000 DTV card

Electrode1,

It was likely a weather condition called tropospheric ducting. In effect, distant signals are carried long distances through layers of the atmosphere under certain weather conditions, occurring more often in the warm weather months. Search Google for "tropo ducting" and you'll get plenty of info on it. Also, go to William Hepburn's tropo forecast site to see (remember, it's only a *forecast*) when conditions will occur again in your area.

I received a couple of stations I'd never gotten before last week as well, but not since.

Charles

Very interesting. That would explain a lot.

I'm planning on mounting an outdoor uhf antenna onto my chimney with the straps. A channel master 4248 or 3023. Lowe's have channel master 10ft and 5ft posts. How high can I join the masts without needing guy wires too? I'd like to go at least 15ft with 2 posts and better yet 20ft.

Hopefully with the narrow design of the antenna wind would not have too much drag or force, I'm not sure. I'd also need a rotor atop the mast too, so that may and some drag too.

How high can I go with this antenna mounted to the chimney.... Thanks

Anyone out there from Reno, NV? I've used Antennaweb.org and solidsignal to check things out, but I'm looking for someone who has gotten good results here. Thanks.

Cool Chart.

Thanks for the Antennaweb.org link.

Originally posted by Angelo M
How high can I join the masts without needing guy wires too?

Hopefully with the narrow design of the antenna wind would not have too much drag or force, I'm not sure. I'd also need a rotor atop the mast too, so that may and some drag too.


The 4228 has a high wind load because of the large surface area. Although torque is probably less because of the narrow design, there's still plenty of metal to catch the wind if you're pointed in the right direction.

The real question is this: how strong is your chimney? You can strap anything to it, but once you securely attach it, it is only as strong as what it is attached to. Generally, mason (brick/stone) chimneys are not designed to handle torque at all, meaning that over time, wind will pull your chimney apart. If you have a wood chimney, they do better.

To be safe, I'd say you shouldn't clear your chimney by more than 6'. You might get away with more, but then again, you might not.

Guy wires provide a lot of extra strength and security, taking almost the entire wind load off of your chimney. Use silicone to seal the guy wire holes and you should be fine for water issues.

Legal disclaimer: I'm not a builder, roofer, or antenna installer. No guarantees, even for 6'.

Angelo M,
Do you have to mount to your chimney? A ground mount strapped to the wall on the way up is much more secure and also easier. In addition, you can have easier access to the antenna from the roof. Chimney mounts are pretty difficult (never done one myself) and you might consider getting a professional to help. If you have the option of a ground mount, it can be done by an amatuer (I did). Here's a picture of mine. It's on my garage and I can easily climb up on the roof and access my antenna. In addition, I used a telescoping mast upside-down so the part that is loaded the most is the strongest. Channel master says on their website that you can go no more than 10 ft above roof-line with a ground mount and no guy wires.

Charles

cpcat,

I don't have to use the chimney. It is the highest point of my house. I actually have a 2 1/2 story house. I wanted to get the antenna as high up as possible without using one of the heavy duty type masts. My roof peaks at the center of the house from all 4 sides and my chimney is near the center. With a 10 foot mast I figure the antenna would be about 40ft off the ground. I considered wall mounting but with a 10 mast above the gutter it would just about be level with the peak of the roof.

By the way this whole antenna end of HDTV is pretty new to me, but you seem to have a serious antenna setup. Do the dual UHF's in your set up maximize you channels and reception vs just one?

sregener,

My chimney's condition is the weak link as far as durability is concerned. I am getting prices on having it repointed. I can picture it failing in its present condition.

It seems like getting the right antenna setup/location requires alot of headwork, planning and luck as far as being in the right position for signal reception.

Thanks both of you for your input.......

Angelo M,
My advice to you before you start all of this is don't underestimate how important your piece of mind is when the wind is howling outside. If you go with an outdoor antenna, find a way to make it strong. I started with an eave mount on my garage but found myself going and looking at the antenna constantly expecting it to fall down.

In general, extra height is good, but not always. With my telescoping mast I can go up about another 8 feet but in my situation the signal is actually stronger at the lower position. If your situation requires 360 degree exposure you may have to go to the highest point on the roof, but OTOH if your stations are located in one general direction you may not need it as much as you think. The problem is, it's hard to really know until you try.

You might consider mounting the 4248 +/- a preamp on a short piece of mast and moving it around on your roof with someone checking your favorite channels inside (on a calm day would be wise) and seeing where you can get an adequate signal before making a more definitive plan.

My journey started with a CM Stealthtenna from Lowes. I set it up in my living room with a CM Spartan preamp (also from Lowes). I couldn't get anything so I moved to the attic. Nothing. I almost gave up but figured I'd try it on my front porch. Bingo, I had a VHF CBS from about 50 miles, so I decided to make the effort for an outdoor antenna. From there it's just evolved as I've gone for better and longer distance and continued the quest for more stations. It's addicting so be careful. The horizontal stack I have now provides added gain and probably more importantly added directivity and multipath rejection. You can stack vertically as well but horizontal directivity stays the same and you narrow the beam vertically. I tried it and it worked pretty well but it was murder on my rotor in a stiff wind (see my piece of mind comment above).

Charles

I would like to get some input on the advantages and disadvantages of OTA reception compared to using D* satellite for my local stations. I am less than 20 miles from all the local tv antennas and they are all located in the same location. Thanks

Originally posted by rldud
I would like to get some input on the advantages and disadvantages of OTA reception compared to using D* satellite for my local stations. I am less than 20 miles from all the local tv antennas and they are all located in the same location.

Advantages of D* over antenna:

- All signals digital, reliable, except when it rains.
- Install is relatively straightforward as there are few choices.
- Dish doesn't need to be installed at the peak of your roof.

Disadvantages of D* over antenna:

- Pay extra $$$ every month for free television.
- Overcompressed D* signals have poor color depth and have artifacts.
- No HD networks (except maybe CBS if you live in an O&O area)
- Can't give you out-of-market signals, which you might get with an antenna.

For most people, I think the advantages of digital terrestrial reception should slant things that way - why pay money for overcompressed digitals when you can get much better digital signals from the local towers? Add in HD content, and the local antenna option should win every time, even if you don't have an HDTV (downconverted HD looks better than upconverted analog!)

I do have a new HDTV and D* HD receiver. They say that local channels will be available in a couple of months (?) and I just have rabbit ear antennas in my attic that I used for my old standard TV. The antennas I have now will work but the picture is not very good, so I know I need to do something. I am thinking about buying a good antenna and mounting it outside. I am also worried about lightning with the OTA antenna. Thanks for the info.

I live east of Orlando FL, actually Merritt Island. I currently have two antennas in the attic; a high gain UHF (Channelmaster 4228) and a small YAGI cut for VHF 11. This is because WNBC comes in on channel 11 for HDTV and all others are on UHF. The two antennas feed a Channel master 7777 preamp and then a Spaun multiplexor. I know if I put the antennas on the roof all will be better except with my HOA, who have no say in the matter. I am an officer in the HOA, so i try to be nice and i don't like the look of the antenna on the roof. I may be forced there though.

I get between 77% and 100% signal strength on 12 digital channels, except for one important one, WCBS. I get no signal there. I do not understand why since all transmitters (the ones I care about are at the same location (Bithlo) and about 35 miles away over Florida Terrain (nothing high).

I did remove a section of radiant barrier (silver foil) and that improved the received SS by almost 30% to its current level.

To get WCBS (UHF 58) I have a Jointenna on order. I will then use a small directional UHF in the attic and tie it in via the jointenna and specifically aim it to get a maximum signal on UHF 58. Probably nbeed to take down more radiant barrier. Total cable runs to the sets are about 100 feet from antenna to mlpxr to sets.

I will post how I make out.

Originally posted by barrygordon

I get between 77% and 100% signal strength on 12 digital channels, except for one important one, WCBS. I get no signal there.

You should be quite impressed if you got WCBS from Orlando, Florida. WCBS broadcasts in New York City. (Okay, okay. You're talking about the local CBS affiliate, WKMG, but it took me quite a bit of legwork to figure that one out.)

The gain curve on the 4228 starts to drop after channel 50. See:
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

The higher the channel number, the more directional most UHF antennas become. Thus, you should expect that a few degrees change in direction will make or break you with WKMG-DT-58.

You don't say how far away you are from the towers, but if you haven't tried it without a preamplifier, it might be worth a shot. WKMG-DT is running a full megawatt of power (though slightly less in your direction with their directional antenna) and from a very tall tower. Unless you're 50+ miles out, that preamp could be making things worse for you.

I have a question about antenna selection. I am seriously considering purchasing a directional antenna to receive OTA HD signals. I live in SE Michigan (about 45 miles north of Detroit). According to Antennaweb.org I am 26 miles from the furthest tower I want to receive from and all of the stations are within 6 degrees of each other.

I am only considering an attic mount because I really don't like the looks of an antenna on the roof. Antennas direct recommended the XG42 directional antenna.

What has anyones experience been with this antenna? I'm assuming that with a 6 degree spread between towers I should be OK with this antenna. Am I going to experience to much loss with it in the attic? I have an asphalt shingle roof and vinyl siding. I am guessing that I will be running about 35 feet of RG6 to the video distribution panel and a maximum of another 25 feet to the TV.

I'm looking for any advice/recommendations on this topic. My main goal is to use the antenna mounted antenna, from there, I am open to different ideas (different equipment, pre-amp, etc.).

Thanks in advance,
Nick

Originally posted by NGiovas

I am only considering an attic mount because I really don't like the looks of an antenna on the roof. Antennas direct recommended the XG42 directional antenna.

...I'm assuming that with a 6 degree spread between towers I should be OK with this antenna. Am I going to experience to much loss with it in the attic?

Most people say this, but do you really notice the antennas on the rooves in your neighborhood? I put up a 54' tower on my property and my wife noticed it for exactly three days before it blended into the "normal" view.

Generally, an attic will cost you a minimum of 1/2 your signal. It can also introduce multipath. In extreme cases, the attic will block all of the signal. You may need to experiment with different locations in your attic before you find one that works. And even after you find one that works, varying weather conditions could move the "sweet spot" around.

The XG42 is a fine antenna, and it might work great for you, assuming you can fit it around your rafters. Most people go with the Channel Master bowties when they're in attics, just because they have a much shorter footprint.

You should be okay on 6 degrees unless some channel numbers are very high. Once you get around channel 50, most antennas become very narrow on their acceptance angle and if you have two that are 6 degrees apart above channel 50 that could present a problem. In that case, I'd stronly recommend a bowtie design, as they are slightly less directional on the upper end when compared to a yagi.

Originally posted by sregener
Most people say this, but do you really notice the antennas on the rooves in your neighborhood? I put up a 54' tower on my property and my wife noticed it for exactly three days before it blended into the "normal" view. Lucky you. My wife definitely notices "those big ugly antennas" all the time. She makes sure to point them out to me now, just so that I don't get any ideas about mounting one for our house, I think. I'm only a few miles from all but one of my local channels, so I'm hoping an outdoor antenna will not be required.

Why isn't anyone offering outdoor antennas painted sky blue (or sky gray depending on where you live, or some combination pattern)?

There's certainly paints that can safely be used. And it'd make it a lot more difficult to see as a "big ugly antenna" if there was a little color/camouflage to it.

As close as you are, though, Brett, the Winegard SquareShooter probably would be ideal... and it's a compact 16"x16".

I'll check that one out, Doug... thanks.

I painted my D* Dish with no problems to match the house exterior. Hardly noticable. Do not use a metallic paint as the reflected heat on the LNB is not smart

I have my Hitachie 65S700 hooked up OTA to local channels. NBC Signal Strength (SS) =~90, CBS~60, ABC~70, FOX~40. I actually am using an RCA 1250 table top antenna with a 45DB Att. (Walmart $30) I was amazed how much that improved the signal (about 30 units).

I rarely can see FOX. CBS cuts in and out some nights and is good some nights. When it cuts out I can see SS jumping all over the place.

1. How are these ss for receiving?
2. Why does the ss on CBS jump around some nights and not others?
3. Can I get more amp. if I used a rooftop with an amp. ? How much attentuation can I reasonably apply?

I'm finally getting ready to buy a UHF antenna. I'm anywhere between 40 and 65 miles from the stations. Antenna web has my needs coded as violet. My zip is 15401.

Titan TV, when I plug in the info needed, shows me being able to receive all of the digital stations with a very good signal rating. Their results look more favorable to me than antenna web. Maybe because they also recommend a certain brand of antenna.

My personal choices are CM 4248 UHF, the narrow looking antenna, or the
CM 4228, the big rectangular one. The 4228 has a longer range rating, but from what I have read the 4248 has a range rating that most feel is underrated. I would mate these with the CM 7777 preamp going to feed approximately 50-75ft of RG-6 to my HD tuner. My antenna can go as high as 40 ft but I would mount lower if I can receive the channels. What is the best of the two.

I just wanted to make the best choice based on others experiences with these 2 CM antennas, or another brand if recommended. Since this is my first antenna installation and have no prior experience with any models at all, any input would be appreciated. I know when it comes down to it, it is a crapshoot at best, I just want the best chance for success.

If most of your stations are broadcasting from the same location, your situation sounds good. I'd put up a CM4228 and a CM7777 preamp. Frankly I'd put it on a rotator too, even though you may never use it once positioned. But as always, the higher the better. If you already have a mast in place, I'd put it right at the top. ;) If not, then just get it above the surrounding buildings' rooflines.

The CM 4248 is a little more directional, but I don't think there's that much practical difference that couldn't be accounted for by aiming.

Angelo,
Probably the biggest difference between the 4228 and the 4248 is weight and wind load. According to the gain charts, the 4248 shouldn't be as good on the lower channels. As you said, though, it seems to outperform it's billing by a bit. The 4228 will place significantly more load on your mast and weighs about twice as much. Another thing to consider about the lighter 4248: If it's not enough for whatever reason, you can always get another and stack them. It's very difficult to stack the 4228. When I decided my 4228 wasn't enough, I had to purchase two more antennas for stacking instead of one.

If you think there's little chance you'd every consider a stack, maybe consider another Yagi. The Antennasdirect xg91 as well as the Winegard PR-9032 are domestics that seem to rival the Euro imports such as Televes,
Triax, etc. MaxHD who posts at this site tested the PR-9032 against the DAT 75 (Televes) and felt they were about equal.

Charles

Angelo,
Go to http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/STACKTESTS/index.html to see the
comparison test I was referring to.
Charles

Some night my CBS station registers in the 60s on signal strengths and some night it goes in the 30s at which point I get drop outs. Is that normal to have that much change in a local HD?

seadoo, it's helpful to post your city and channel, so that others in your area can comment...

Originally posted by seadoo
Some night my CBS station registers in the 60s on signal strengths and some night it goes in the 30s at which point I get drop outs. Is that normal to have that much change in a local HD?

I have some stations that only come in at night, others that only come in when the weather is just so, etc. etc.

The big factors in reception are distance from the transmitter, height of transmitter, power of transmitter, gain of receiving antenna, height of receiving antenna, splitters/multiplexors on antenna line, and topography between transmitting and receiving antennas.

If your antenna is indoors, it will get better reception outdoors. If your antenna is close to the ground, it will do better if you put it up higher. If your antenna is small (has low gain) then a bigger one will help.

Antenna Selection
http://www.antennaweb.org

Antenna Testing Information
http://www.atechfabrication.com/tests.htm

Tower Page - see N1LO's GUYED TOWER TOPIC SUMMARY
http://www.qsl.net/n1lo/tower.htm

Antenna Installation Guide
http://www.starkelectronic.com/cmig.htm
(Note that if a seperate ground rod is used for the antenna it must be bonded to the house grounding electrode system)

Grounding Satellite Dish and Lead-In Cables
http://www.mikeholt.com/news/archive/html/master/03-3-2002-9-47.htm

Code Basics: Article 810, Radio and Television Equipment
http://www.mikeholt.com/news/archive/html/master/Code_Basics_Article_810_-_Radio_and_Television_Equipment_01-10-2003.htm

National Electrical Code - Search for "dish"
http://forums.nfpa.org:8081/necfaq/necsrch.htm

Antenna Grounding
http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/hdreception/antenna_grounding.html
(thanks AVS Forum member greywolf)

Preventing Damage Due to Ground Potential Difference
http://www.cinergy.com/surge/ttip08.htm

PSIHQ - Grounding Requirements
http://www.psihq.com/iread/strpgrnd.htm

PolyPhaser Technical Information
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_technical.asp

FCC Fact Sheet on Placement of Antennas
http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

Originally posted by Electrode1
I'm in west Michigan, and I can recieve all of the Grand Rapids stations just fine. Last Thursday, I was able to recieve some DTV stations from Green Bay, Chicago and South Bend, but at about 9:45 PM on Friday they all disappeared. Since then I have not been able to recieve any of them, only an occasional blip from WSBT when the antenna is pointed at it.

Does anyone have any idea what could cause this, or how I could get those stations back in? Here's what I'm using, if it matters:


In addition to the tropo ducting caused by weather, ducting over water is easily caused by temperature inversions caused by the effects of warm water underneith colder air.

Need help in Chicago
Living in downtown Chicago.
I just hooked up a D*TV HR10-250 HD DVR. I live on the 49th floor of a high rise facing south. According to antennaweb.org all my VHS stations signals are coming from the Sears Tower at .4 miles and 35 degree compass orientation. All my UHF signals are at 1.1 miles and 206 degree compass orientation. Here's the problem. I have tried an un-amplified RS indoor antenna and then a Zenith Silver Sensor. I can't get WGN-TV DT which is on frequency 19 yet get a perfect signal from WMAQ-TV (NBC) at frequency 29 and WLS-TV (ABC) at frequency 52.
What's my problem? Too much signal, not enough, directional antenna? Do I need an outdoor antenna on my balcony? HELP!


__________________
gfitz

Originally posted by gmfitzmaurice
I can't get WGN-TV DT which is on frequency 19 yet get a perfect signal from WMAQ-TV (NBC) at frequency 29 and WLS-TV (ABC) at frequency 52.
What's my problem? Too much signal, not enough, directional antenna? Do I need an outdoor antenna on my balcony? HELP!


Given how close you are, the problem is likely multipath. I'd go to your nearest Radio Shack and buy a variable attenuator. You might also want to pick up a $2.99 bowtie while you're there. Their return policy makes it easy to handle if things don't work. Try the attenuator first. Experiment with various settings and various aimings of the antenna (it may work better pointed in a different direction than at the tower.) If that doesn't work, try the bowtie by itself. If you still get nothing, try the attenuator + the bowtie.

I live 15 miles NNE of NYC in Westchester County and I am using a Stealthtenna pointed toward NYC from the peak of my roof (30 feet up). My question is this: just how much of a problem do trees have in blocking reception of UHF (HDTV) signals?

Unfortunately for me, my nearest neighbor (line of sight) has a huge tree (at least 60 ft tall) amoung others, that my antenna "looks" directly through. Does this result in a large amount of signal loss? Or, are trees transparent to UHF signals? On my HDTivo I pickup Ch 11 at close to 80 (the best) but many of the other stations are much lower, and Ch 4 is at 4 to 10 (the worst).

Would a line amp help, as I probably have close to 75-80 feet of cable from antenna to HDTivo? Unfortunately, I have no where else on my property that I can see around this tree.

JBThompson,
Trees can definitely block UHF signals to some degree, but not as much as say a mountain or a building. The Stealthtenna is an O.K. VHF performer but pretty weak for UHF. A preamp (not a line amp) will only help if there is decent signal to begin with. You could try a preamp first (Channelmaster 7777 or Channelmaster Spartan II would be two choices for UHF/VHF) but you may find a better antenna will be necessary such as a CM 4221 which is a good medium range UHF performer. You can always continue to use the Stealthtenna as your VHF antenna. Both of the abovementioned preamps will allow for separate UHF and VHF inputs. The other option would be to go with the 4221/Stealthtenna using a vhf/uhf combiner without a preamp. You might even try the 4221 alone if your vhf channels are high band (7-13) as it will provide some vhf gain as well.

Whether to get the antenna first or try the preamp first is a hard call. I think with 80 ft. of cable you may need a preamp no matter what at least for UHF. The Spartan has less gain and might be better in your case with fairly close proximity to the towers (less chance for overloading the preamp).

Sorry, I can't be more definite, but alot of this is educated guessing and trial-and-error.

The reason to use the preamp instead of the line amp is you'd rather amplify the signal close to the source before it is attenuated by the coax run.


Charles

cpcat,

Thanks for the quick reply. I feel hopeful. And, I used the wrong terminology, using line amp instead of pre-amp. I would mount it at the antenna to provide better signal through to run of cable.

I have no interest in VHF channels in all I am looking to see are local HD stations, although the lowest for NYC is channel 12. I was recommended the Stealthtenna for HD/UHF. Guess some bad info.

I will first go with a new antenna for UHF. the SquareShooter SS-1000 has been recommended to me although, I am not sure if it is good for 20 miles?!? Do you know this antenna?

Thanks again!

cpcat,

I should have said 4.1 and 11.1 for the HD signals I am receiving. Channel 11.1 is on VHF 12, the best signal. Channel 4.1 is on UHF 28, the worst. The range I need to pull in is channel 12 to 56. Channel 2.1 on UHF 56 comes in strong too but not like 11.1 on VHF channel 12.

Where is George?
Huh? :confused:

Anyway, with ch. 12 as your lowest channel I'd bet the 4221 would work well for you. I don't know much about the SS but do know it's about 3-4x more expensive than the 4221. If you end up trying a preamp, you can get the Spartan at Lowe's (at least they carry it in my area). The 4221 is available at multiple online retailers and probably locally for you if you have a CM dealer. Lowe's doesn't carry it, as far as I know.

Antennasdirect has the DB4 which is a little fancier 4-bay (like the 4221) and has an integral PCB balun which is nice. It's more expensive than the 4221 but still considerably less than the SS.

Good Luck
Charles
Edit: OOPS I checked and the DB4 doesn't have the PCB balun, you have to go to the xg91 for that.

I live 30 miles north of Wilmington NC. (air miles)

I have an Zium Spirlateral Air Dish. Omni Direction

On analog I picked up poor signals beyond 65 miles.

I had Voom installed yesterday combined with my OTA antenna.

This is strange to me why but here goes.

I can not receive any of the Wilmington stations. Their Tower distance is between 32 and 43 miles.

I do receive the following stations perfectly.

WITN-7(NBC) and WNCT-9(CBS) same tower 56 miles NNE
WCTI-12(ABC) 44 miles ENE
WUNM-19(PBS) 38 miles NE
WPXU-35(PAX) 37 miles NE

The only one I need from wilmington is WSFX-26(FOX) 32 miles ESE
WECT-6(NBC) and WUNJ-39(PBS) same tower 36 miles SE

This sounds interesting. I have recently experimented with a small omni-directional antenna. While distant signals don't receive as well as nearer ones, I have found something interesting.

At least one OTA station (1 analog and 3 digital) channels that don't receiver well (at least the digital ones) in ANY direction. But I receive them fine on the less sensitive omni-directional antenna. The directional antenna may be either saturated with signal or is not stable due to multi-path. I can never get a decent picture anywhere on the compass.

The omni-directional antenna gets all 3 digital channels of this station fine. I have wondered if antennas coupled with the digital transmit/receive systems respond somewhat differently from analog signals to multi-path signals. Perhaps there are some other issues related to some sort of polarization I am not aware of...

I have searched the web for any info on 'spiral omni-directional antenna' and variations. I have not found anything along the lines if the model you spoke of or anything much directly related to television. And omni-directional antenna that can get some content out to 65 miles sounds interesting. Can you provide a link to something about that antenna on the web?

Making Post # 3 so I can post the URL for you.

The link for the company where I bought the Spilateral antenna

www.goxium.com

Though they use the terminology 'omni-directional' the Xium Air does not appear to be an omni-directional antenna... However, I may not understand their technology. Since all the stations you receive are more or less NE and the ones you don't receive are SE you might consider rotating the antenna about 90 degrees to the south and note what difference that makes to your reception (of all the stations).

The Xium 'Spilateral" appears such that it could be omni-directional...however the addition of the parabolic dish for the XiumAir model would tend to make me think it would be less than omni-directional

In analog it picked up various strength signals in a 360% and the ones that I pick up digital were worse on analog except for WCTI.

I have moved it in every orientation today. I lost one that I get now when doing that.

My thinking is that these stations have a lower ERP. I may add another amp though that may not be an answer either. The only one that I think I need is WSFX26 (FOX) Most of the Carolina Panthers games are carried over FOX.

I just wanted to to be rid of a rotor

I could add another 5 feet in elevation which would get it to 24.5 feet above the ground.

Originally posted by cpanther1
I have an Zium Spirlateral Air Dish. Omni Direction

I do receive the following stations perfectly.

WITN-7(NBC) and WNCT-9(CBS) same tower 56 miles NNE
WCTI-12(ABC) 44 miles ENE
WUNM-19(PBS) 38 miles NE
WPXU-35(PAX) 37 miles NE

The only one I need from wilmington is WSFX-26(FOX) 32 miles ESE
WECT-6(NBC) and WUNJ-39(PBS) same tower 36 miles SE

Honestly, I'm astounded you get anything with that antenna. There ain't no such thing as "spilateral" technology, and as an antenna design, the XiumAir is a dog. Even so, I wouldn't expect you to get WSFX at this time.

This information should help you understand why WSFX isn't coming in. 5kw is pathetic. (From the FCC Database)

WSFX-TV NC WILMINGTON USA (Digital)

Licensee: SOUTHEASTERN MEDIA HOLDINGS, INC.
Service Designation: DS Special Temporary Authority (digital)

Channel: 30 566 - 572 MHz
File No.: BDSTA-20020311ABT Facility ID number: 72871
CDBS Application ID No.: 598625

34° 13' 33.00" N Latitude
78° 55' 20.00" W Longitude (NAD 27)

Polarization:
Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 5. kW ERP
Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 38. meters HAAT
Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 43.6 meters AMSL
Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 0. meters AGL

Yes, I tend to agree with you some what. I was pixielation and dropped signal on all OTA except 19 & 35.

I could probably do good except for #26 with a hi gain UHF antenna with preamp if needed with a rotor. Probably get Fox50 in Raleigh.

I guess the remote controlled rotors are not as worrisome as the old style.

I will have to do some research on this.

I live less than one mile from three HDTV broadcast towers in NW Washington, DC. Can I use an indoor antenna and which one would be best? WAF is involved. Attic mount is possible. I saw a Jensen amplified indoor antenna on Radio Shack website that looked pretty good.

Obie

Avoid all amplified antennas. You're too close for them to do any good, obie.

Try the Zenith Silver Sensor (Circuit City has it.) That's probably your best bet for an indoor antenna.

Rabbit Ears would probably work.

Originally posted by cpanther1
Yes, I tend to agree with you some what. I was pixielation and dropped signal on all OTA except 19 & 35.

I could probably do good except for #26 with a hi gain UHF antenna with preamp if needed with a rotor. Probably get Fox50 in Raleigh.

I guess the remote controlled rotors are not as worrisome as the old style.

I will have to do some research on this.


I purchased a Channelmaster 3020 and new digital controlled rotor today. I will try my Radio Shack inline 10db amp. I had good service years ago with this combination with a smaller antenna. I will do the installation later this week.

If this does not do the trick I will then try a 7777 preamp.

I just talked with Voom about my local channels and it is not my lack of antenna. The FCC has allowed the Voom receiver to have but one local market. Their approval of all available markets is probably in late 04 to early 05. Yuck-yuck

I just have the Greenville/Washington/Jacksonville local area though I am closer to the Wilmington area.

If anyone has more than one local market availability with Voom please send me a PM.

Your reception of digital TV OTA is just that, OTA reception. The VOOM receiver is doing nothing to disallow specific channels OTA. If you can't get it, it's because you're not receiving enough signal.

Charles

The Voom receiver according to Voom is not allowed to decode but one local market by order of the FCC

Do I understand why the FCC rules so? NO

No more than I can understand their position on true Broadband.

If you have Voom and you have more than one local market I would appreciate any of you let me know.

Thanks

Originally posted by cpanther1
The Voom receiver according to Voom is not allowed to decode but one local market by order of the FCC.

This is just plain wrong. The FCC has no rules or regulations about what an OTA receiver (which is what the Voom receiver works as when watching broadcast signals) is allowed to tune or not to tune. If somebody at Voom is blaming the FCC, they're just trying to stay out of the firing line. They may have designed their receiver to work this way, but it isn't because of any FCC regulations.

Now Voom says my personal antenna is the fault. Not.

Originally posted by cpanther1
Now Voom says my personal antenna is the fault. Not.

That's where I'd put the blame.

What's the rated gain of your Xium Air antenna? What does its polar pattern look like? They don't say.

For long-distance, reliable reception of digital signals, you need a high gain, highly directional antenna with a high front-to-back ratio. The Xium Air has none of these.

The fact that you get anything with it is more of a miracle to me than anything else.

cpanther 1,
My advice to you is to get another antenna. For UHF the CM 4228 is a solid performer up to about 60 miles. Antennasdirect DB8 is a similar design and they have many other quality antennas on their website but they are a little more expensive. If you need VHF, look at Antennacraft. The low VHF will require a huge antenna for long distance, but the Y10 7-13 is excellent in the high band (7-13) and it's size is very manageable. You just can't go against the laws of physics and the usual rule applies that if it seems "to good to be true", it likely is.

VOOM is typically very responsive to their customers in regards to providing adequate OTA reception. They have provided others here with bigger/better antennas when necessary at no cost. See if they'd be willing to do the same for you.

Charles
Edit: I just noticed that earlier you'd said you bought a CM3020. That's a huge antenna, but it should also be a huge improvement. The reason it's huge if for the low vhf. If your cable run is significant, say 50 ft or more, consider a preamp esp. for UHF frequencies.

Both of my daughters are home this Friday and Saturday. They will help me get the large antenna that I have had for 8 years and move it over to my other mount and check it.

I received good analog signals in a 360 degree range with the Xium so it must not be good with 360 degree reception of Digital signals.

PS. I have a Channel Master digital rotor control programmable remote so that will not be so bad.

Originally posted by cpanther1

I received good analog signals in a 360 degree range with the Xium so it must not be good with 360 degree reception of Digital signals.


It depends on what a "good analog" signal looks like to you. If your UHF reception from similar distances and locations is relatively snow and ghost-free, then the odds are that the receiver isn't very good. (As a matter of fact, the Voom is a known dog of a performer for OTA reception.) If you have minor ghosting, that can be more than enough to kill digital reception with a poorly designed receiver. Any strong ghosts or enough snow to make reading text difficult is enough to knock out digital reception.

Omnidirectional antennas do absolutely nothing to reduce multipath (ghosts) and thus are usually inadequate for digital reception.

This may be a stupid question with an obvious answer, but I'm going to ask anyway:

If I had an antenna connected to its preamp by a 12 foot cable of any given type (in particular, twin lead or RG6 coax), would there be a significant improvement in performance if I replaced that with a 3 foot cable of the same type?

I ask because in my situation, such a change would require quite a bit of work (and money) but if it would yeild a major increase in performance it could be done.

Originally posted by Electrode1
This may be a stupid question with an obvious answer, but I'm going to ask anyway:

If I had an antenna connected to its preamp by a 12 foot cable of any given type (in particular, twin lead or RG6 coax), would there be a significant improvement in performance if I replaced that with a 3 foot cable of the same type?

I ask because in my situation, such a change would require quite a bit of work (and money) but if it would yeild a major increase in performance it could be done.

It's very doubtful that shortening the cable from 12' to 3' would make any difference.

Electrode1,
Shortening the cable between the antenna and the preamp is always a good idea. However, the amount of improvement you'll see is difficult to predict. You should see more improvement on higher frequencies and less at lower ones (i.e. vhf) as attenuation in the line will increase with frequency. If you're borderline on a channel in the high uhf range, it might be worth it but the only way to know would be to try. Dxers say to couple the antenna directly to the preamp. I've never been sure quite how they do that.

Twinlead has less problems with attenuation but more with interference and stray signal pickup. You're supposed to twist it over a long run I think to maximize its performance. I saw a twist-per-distance reccomendation somewhere but can't remember. Maybe someone else who uses it can help.

Charles

Perhaps I'll stick with my current cable arrangement for now.

On a completely unrelated note, I've been thinking of taking down my "local" antenna and replacing it with something that will provide more VHF gain (I'm not so concerned about UHF, I use a CM 4228 for that). One possibility that really caught my attention is the Magnavox MANT-902. The manufacturer claims it has a 100 mile range, and Spectravox sells it for $32. Does anyone have any experience with this antenna?

Electrode1,
That looks like a knock-off CM3020. The front part is for UHF which you said you don't need and the reason it's about 7 feet wide is for the low vhf band
(2-6). If you only need the high band, a real good option is an Antennacraft or Winegard high band VHF antenna (7-13). It's size is much more manageable and it actually outperforms those monster combo antennas on those channels. There are also dedicated wide band vhf antennas available from Winegard and Jerrold as well as cut channel versions from the same. The lower the channel, the bigger the antenna.
Charles

Actually, low band VHF is quite important. There is a local channel 2 that is quite hard to pull in, and there are numerous 4's, 5's and 6's across the lake.

http://www.starkelectronic.com/del937.htm
If it's low-band VHF you want, then few can beat the power of the VU-937. It has solid gain on all bands, even without the VU-8PZ addon. :)

I get signal strength of 60-65 on my local CBS, but the sound keeps dropping out while the picture remains strong with no pixilation. I have to go down to below 30 before picture drops out. I monitor the signal strength during drop outs and it remains in the 60-65 range. None of my other locals are doing this. Can somebody help me explain and suggest what to do ? Thanks

Electrode1,
You'll need to go with a wide band VHF only antenna then. Jerrold makes two sizes and I believe Winegard does also. Here's the Jerrold:http://www.starkelectronic.com/delhi.htm
There are two sizes. They are both big.

Charles

The Jerrold VIP-307SR looks interesting, albeit a little expensive. I suppose I have to spend some cash to get decent equipment. :)

How big is the shipping carton on a ChannelMaster 4228 antenna? Just wondering if I can get it through an attic hatch. . . . (long story) :)

Doug

It's shipped in one piece and the carton is just slightly larger than the antenna. It is possible to disassemble it if needed but it's not easy. Part of it is riveted together so you have to replace the rivets with nuts/bolts when you put it back together.
Charles

I have Voom and something strange.

On OTA I can only receive one local market( farther than the market closest to me.)

Does anyone else have Voom and receive more than one OTA market area?


Phone Rep 1. FCC prohibits more than one local area.

Phone Rep 2. I should be able to view all Stations my antenna receives.

Question online. The same as phone Rep 1.

Voom installer. The Channel decoding should come in a nightly download from Voom. I should let them know of all the Stations I can receive.

I sent a message to the FCC last Tuesday. I have not yet received a reply.

I am planning to purchase the Antennasdirect DB8 soon (or equivalent). These are UHF antennas. I am located in Shelton, CT (06484) and I have to be able to receive Channels 10 (very strong signal in my area) and Channel 12 . I have been told by someone that these antennas should be able to pick up these VHF (high) frequencies despite it being a UHF antenna.

Does anyone have any experience in using a UHF antenna to pick up (high) VHF digital signals?

Also, would anyone suggest a different brand of equivalent antenna over Antennasdirect DB8?

Thanks

ChuckA

Should be fine. Using a Channel Master 4228 (very similar to antennasdirect DB8), I can pick up channels 7 and 11 almost as well as with a VHF/UHF/FM antenna. 7 is about 30 miles away, 11 is about 10 miles away.

Electrode1

Are you using a pre amplifier. I am planning on using the CM 7777. Should I have both the UHF and VHF linked or should I have it set to UHF only when using only one UHF antenna?

ChuckA

Chucka,
You should hook your antenna to the "UHF/combined" input and be sure the switch internally is on "combined". Otherwise, you won't get any VHF channels.

Charles

I have a Radio Shack VU-90XR 26 Elements outside antenna (Covers Yellow to Green Areas, no pre-amp) . I get the 3 local stations with PBS and Univision crystal clear. I wanted to add FOX and PAX. According to Atenna Web I should be able to add up to 6 more staions via UHF.

So, I bought a Philips/Magnavox MANT902 36 Elements Outdoor Antenna that is supposed to cover Yellow thru Violet Areas, no pre-amp. I installed it and tried it out and all my channels (even the ones that were clear w/ the other antenna) turned out really snowy and unclear. As far as hook up, I left the cables and everything else alone and just replaced the antenna on the mast.

Can anyone tell me if I did anything wrong? Or why a more powerful antenna would get a weaker signal than the smaller one?

Zip code: 78418
Street: Meadow Ridge
City/State: Corpus Christi, TX
Terrain: Flat


__________________

bsr2002,
There are several possibilities. Assuming the specs for these two antennas are correct you should expect at least equal or most likely better performance from the larger one. One possibility would be that conditions changed during the time you tried the larger one. This happens constantly and is very frustrating when trying to compare different setups for performance. Also, check the aim of the antenna and be sure it's aimed properly. Higher gain antennas often have narrower beamwidths which makes aiming more critical. Check to see that the height of installation hasn't changed. Finally, check the balun which came with the second antenna. Try the balun from the first and make sure that's not the difference.

Charles

Originally posted by bsr2002

So, I bought a Philips/Magnavox MANT902 36 Elements Outdoor Antenna that is supposed to cover Yellow thru Violet Areas, no pre-amp. I installed it and tried it out and all my channels (even the ones that were clear w/ the other antenna) turned out really snowy and unclear.

There is no way the Philips is good to Violet. The UHF section is a joke. Look in this thread and forum for many highly recommended UHF antennas.

Originally posted by giantcycle
How big is the shipping carton on a ChannelMaster 4228 antenna? Just wondering if I can get it through an attic hatch. . . . (long story) :)

Doug

as CPCAT said- the 4228 can be basically broken in half- just drill out the rivets on the bars that connect the 2 halves together and then once you are in the attic replace the rivets with nuts and bolts.

BUT if you are within 30 (or maybe even 50) miles of your towers and they have decent power levels I would go to the sears (others have found it at circuit city) and pick up a silver sensor and try that first. If it doesn't work then return it and try the 4228.

I'm actually surprised no one has seriously mentioned the silver sensor in this thread before other than one mention of an 'inside antenna'

I got the 4228 and drilled out the rivets and wrestled the 2 halves through the hatch then put it all together back in the attic. Got it to work pretty well but then i wanted to try getting some stations from another direction and didn't want to wait a week to get another 4228 in the mail so a picked up a silver sensor at the local sears. I actually walked past the thing 5 times looking for it because it is so darn small, i couldn't imagine that it would work. Got it home and surprise surprise it works bascially as well as the 4228 for getting Philadelphia at about 30 miles and for getting the high powered stations out of NYC at about 50 miles. The 4228 can get one more of the mediumish stations out of NYC but thats it. Shortly NYC stations should be competing a combiner project and I suspect the silver sensor will get all the stations that the 4228 does at that point.


I was very pleasantly surprised. And for something that is such trial and error buying something in person i can return is alot better then having to wait a few days to get the parts for 'plan B'. Also theres no need to figure out a mast in the attic to mount the silver sensor- it basically has a base on it like you would place it on top of your book shelf or something- so i threw up a piece of scrap wood for a shelve instead of having to make the 2 trips to the Home Depot and rat shack to get all the parts i needed to make the mast for the 4228.

Above results in my attic with a CM 7777 pre amp running probably 60-70 feet of cable to a terk 5x8 multiswitch. From there anther 15-20 feet to a diplexor and then into a HD directivo.

(also for more info- i am totally anal so i first connected the hdtivo to about 20 foot of cable and connected that directly through the attic hatch to the preamp on the antenna. I wrote down all the results and then checked again after adding each component and length of wire and basically got the same numbers GIVE or take 2-3 points on the signal strength meter)

i'm looking for some knowledge on combining 2 antenna's. If you see my post above once NYC gets its act together with the combiner, I should be able to get pretty much everything from Philly -OR- NYC on a single antenna just fine. But I would like to get both- having a tivo i cant predict which way to aim and might even need both directions at the same time - a rotator isnt really an option so I need to combine 2 antenna's. I'm hoping someone has a little insight before i try 110 trial and error steps.

A pile of questions.....

I'm not really in a situation to combine a 2nd antenna for just one channel like the jointenna's do rather I need to wholesale combine like 8-10 channels from one antenna with 8-10 from another. I've read and/or posted to the NYC thread, the Philly thread, and the central NJ thread but haven't gotten much luck yet- although have gotten some replies that make me think its very possible- but no one has tried to get all the possible channels to work at once and it doenst seem impossible to me from a technical perspective. I pass my local cable office occasionally and they have all kinds of antennas aon a tower that look like plain old radio shcak specials aiming all over the place- they must combine then somehow?


I do have an issue with an analog channel from NYC killing a digital from Philly so i almost definately need to get a notch filter for channel 31. Once idea i had was to get a jointenna to add channel 31 to the NYC feed- but just don't add it so that 31 would get stripped from the NYC antenna and then combine after the jointenna. I'm also wondering if in a perfect world would it be best to get a bunch of notches and just kill off the unneeded frequencies on each cable before the diplexor. But looking around i cant seem to find any easy way to do that- the jointennas really don't seem well suited to such a plan. I searched and searched and found this site that says i can basically cut a length of cable that dead ends to a tee to kill off unneeded frequencies- i was thinking of maybe adding a 5 way splitter and using the 3 unused tees to kill off the 3 channels that would be best to kill. Is that necessary or overkill? http://www.homewiringandmore.com/interference/solutions/solutions.html#20
Searching around I find a few references to kits used to steal cable tv where you can built your own notch filters to kill certain blocking signals for like $15 and I would do that but it seems the kits only work up to channel 22 and since i'm all over the UHF band that wouldn't help me much- got an email into the people that make the 'educational kits' to see if they have different parts for killing off UHF in the spaces between 22 and 69.

I am also a little confused about the whole same length cable issue. Seems the mantra is to make sure both antennas have the same length cable before the combiner but then then i read that was only relevant for multipath- however i think i am in pretty much perfect luck to that since my antennas aim almost opposite directions but not quite180 and i can use the aluminum siding from the side of the attic to block the rear's so each antenna really only will pick up where it is aimed. I tried combining but didn't exactly get stellar results- i tried with with same length cables and without- so not sure if thats an issue. And for the record what exactly is "same length" can i trust 2 '3 foot cables' from rat shack or does an extra milimeter that wasnt clipped oft he center conductor on one cable going to ruin the whole thing. Also the only way I can think to really get teh exact same lenght is to have 2 indentical antenna's - where do i measure from on a CM4228 versus the silver senor for example- or do I need to just get 2 of the SS's or 4228's? Any thoughts about the whole same length issue? What happens if i start adding in nothc filters- how to a calculate lengths?

Next I thought the combiner i use might be an issue- i first tried it with a splitter that Bellatlantic used on my Brother in Laws house years ago when they installed Directv to split the OTA analog antenna so I thought that would be high quality (long story there) . But then I read a splitter isn't exactly the same as a splitter/combiner. So I picked one up a radio shack that says 'splitter/combiner' and plan to use that- maybe i'll get better results. Any idea what to look for there- radio shack has like 4-5 choices so i just got the most expensive. Then I see at werner electronics that cm makes a combiner- do I need that? I've read that by combing the 2 antennas I will wind up transmitting some of the philly power out of the NYC antenna and vice-versa. Is there something like a diode that you can put in the combiner to stop the signal from backtracking up the other leg?

I'm just fiddling around now- an hour or 2 here and there but once NYC gets the combiner done and I have lots of choices in both directions i hope to be able to figure this all out.

I've searched around here and all over the web and theres lots of info about combining 2 or more antennas to get one source but i can find anything really except join-tennas to get 2 different sources. Not afriad to read so if you have links fire away

THANKS
Mike

Michaelk,
Have you tried taking the screen off of a CM4228 to see how many you can get all at once through one antenna? If you could get most with one antenna, it would greatly simplify things for you and maybe you could go the mast filter route for the ones you lack. Also, VHF and UHF channels are easily separable and there's no problem in using antennas in different directions there. In addition to the jointenna product, also look athttp://www.triax.dk/ifs/files/triax/is/presentation/home/Satellite_x_terrestrial/DTH_(Direct_to_Home)/Maste_elektronik/Filters_and_Combiners/Filters_and_Combiners.jsp
Triax makes just about anything you'd need I think. It's just a matter of figuring it all out and deciding the best way to do it. A potentially difficult problem will arise if you try to separate channels that are very close, say only one or two numbers different.

Cable lengths are only important if you are stacking antennas i.e. combining identical antennas for more gain, directivity, etc. pointing in the same direction. The multipath is so bad with dissimilar antennas in different directions that cable length is the least of your worries. That's why the filters have to be used. In other words, you can't get the same station on two different antennas or it will corrupt the signal with multipath.
You'll have to figure out a complicated filtering scheme if you have multiple channels scattered up and down in frequency on more than one antenna.

My understanding of how the Cable Co.'s do this is with single-channel antennas with channel-specific amplifiers and filters.

Good Luck
Charles

Originally posted by cpcat
Michaelk,
Have you tried taking the screen off of a CM4228 to see how many you can get all at once through one antenna? If you could get most with one antenna, it would greatly simplify things for you and maybe you could go the mast filter route for the ones you lack. Also, VHF and UHF channels are easily separable and there's no problem in using antennas in different directions there. In addition to the jointenna product, also look athttp://www.triax.dk/ifs/files/triax/is/presentation/home/Satellite_x_terrestrial/DTH_(Direct_to_Home)/Maste_elektronik/Filters_and_Combiners/Filters_and_Combiners.jsp
Triax makes just about anything you'd need I think. It's just a matter of figuring it all out and deciding the best way to do it. A potentially difficult problem will arise if you try to separate channels that are very close, say only one or two numbers different.

Cable lengths are only important if you are stacking antennas i.e. combining identical antennas for more gain, directivity, etc. pointing in the same direction. The multipath is so bad with dissimilar antennas in different directions that cable length is the least of your worries. That's why the filters have to be used. In other words, you can't get the same station on two different antennas or it will corrupt the signal with multipath.
You'll have to figure out a complicated filtering scheme if you have multiple channels scattered up and down in frequency on more than one antenna.

My understanding of how the Cable Co.'s do this is with single-channel antennas with channel-specific amplifiers and filters.

Good Luck
Charles

great idea to pull the screen- there is a spot wher ei can position the 4228 and get a little something off the back, so maybe just pulling the screen is all i need.

THanks for the link- looks like a great source.

if i get it all to work, i'll be sure to report back.

Mike

I have removed the screens on the 4228 and mounted on the roof. There is a large difference in sensitivity of the front and back. Does anyone know if this is because of the metal mast the 2228 is mounted to? Bruce

I live right outside Washington, DC (zip 22101) and antennaweb says that I'm in a "red" reception zone for all the channels I care about recieving in DTV. I am in a neighborhood with lots of trees. The stations are listed as being 5.1 to 8.5 miles away, and all the stations I want to recieve are mapped as being in almost the same direction. The map function on antennaweb has two lines that encompass all of those stations, and they're pictured ~10 degrees apart, so I'd guess a 10-15 degree arc for getting everything without repositioning. All of my digital OTAs (don't care about analog OTA) are UHF.

I've tried several OTA antennas so far, and am still seeing enough analog ghosting to kill DTV reception. My HD reciever is a Samsung SIR-T360 - not the best for OTA, not the worst either from what I've read here.

I first tried an old VHF/UHF antenna that's been mounted on my house for quite a few years (left by the previous tenants, no one's ever gotten around to taking it down). The rotator's busted, so I can't reposition it. I don't know the exact model - I doubt it's anything fancy, my guess from the other old equipment it was attached to in the ceiling is that it's a Radio Shack antenna. (The other signal distribution stuff was all Archer) I wasn't even sure if it would work, but it does pull in a signal. I can't get the ghosting to go away, though.

So I tried, again not expecting any great success, a set of rabbitears. PQ is *very* similar to the large rooftop antenna.

I just picked up a new RS U-75R UHF-only outdoor antenna, which is currently indoors. I'm hoping to avoid a roof mount if possible, since it will be a pain to get it up there. I don't feel comfortable working on a sloped roof.

It picks up UHF a little better. (Actually, it pulls in VHF about as well as the others did, too, even though it's "UHF-only". Pretty much confirms that both of the other antennas are useless IMO.) I am still getting *severe* multipath though, and DTV channels won't lock.

What's my next step? Would a good indoor antenna be better than using the U-75R indoors? I was planning on taking the new antenna up to the attic and doing an attic mount, but if the multipath is *severe* inside, it seems that this just isn't going to work. I could try to pick up a Silver Sensor or something if that would be my best testing option.. part of the reason I got the RS antenna was because of their liberal return policy. I'd rather not shell out for an antenna I can't take back if it doesn't work out - I still have *no* digital OTA channels coming in. I suppose the Silver Sensor is a returnable one, so if it has a good chance of working I'll pick one up and give it a try. I'm surprised that the U-75R has almost as much trouble rejecting multipath as a set of rabbitears though.

Originally posted by Perel

What's my next step? Would a good indoor antenna be better than using the U-75R indoors? I was planning on taking the new antenna up to the attic and doing an attic mount, but if the multipath is *severe* inside, it seems that this just isn't going to work. I could try to pick up a Silver Sensor or something if that would be my best testing option.. part of the reason I got the RS antenna was because of their liberal return policy. I'd rather not shell out for an antenna I can't take back if it doesn't work out - I still have *no* digital OTA channels coming in. I suppose the Silver Sensor is a returnable one, so if it has a good chance of working I'll pick one up and give it a try. I'm surprised that the U-75R has almost as much trouble rejecting multipath as a set of rabbitears though.

Okay, multipath is hell, and you're so close that you're going to have to fight it pretty strong.

My first piece of advice to you is to take that U75R back to Radio Shack. They're not all that great, and the corner reflector is probably part of why you're having trouble with multipath - they're not very directional.

While you're there, pick up a $2.99 UHF bowtie antenna and a variable attenuator. Experiment around a little bit and see if you can't knock those ghosts down to a minimum with that combo. As close as you are, gain isn't the problem.

If all else fails, you might want to try the Winegard SquareShooter. It should be easy enough to install without going all the way to the peak of your roof, and some report that it does wonders resisting multipath.

Okay, it'll be going back soon - probably tomorrow. I've continued tinkering, and it's now in the attic pointed at a window that's in the right direction for the stations I'm trying to recieve, according to antennaweb. Up here, I get most of my stations. There's only one network along the same azimuth as the others, and I'm intermittently picking up two others - an additional PBS station that's 60 degrees out of arc and 'Mhz', which AFAICT isn't listed in my antennaweb stations. (Edit: They renamed themselves and I missed it in the list. The station is listed, but it's over 150 degrees out of the 'main stations arc'.)

The odd thing is, I tried hooking a 20dB cable amp up right after the antenna. It seems to help slightly. (It's an old amp I had from having to use a very screwed up MDU CATV system - I had to amp my signal just to get my Tivo to lock on - that I had to use back in college.) I'm really baffled as to why it would _help_ if my signals are strong - maybe it's just not sensitive enough to pick up the weaker ghost signals, and is partially drowning them out? Or maybe I'm just imagining things, and I had the antenna aligned better when the amp is in place.

I'll get a variable attenuator and a cheap bowtie and see if that helps. Moving upstairs *did* help a good bit - I forgot to mention in my previous post that this is a masonry house and tends to block cellphone signals fairly well unless you're standing right next to a window. I'm hoping that maybe an attic antenna will overcome that, as the attic walls aren't brick.

Additional item: Tried the rabbitears in the *attic*, and they appear to pull in channels almost the same as the 75U. Also, with it being night, both antennas can mostly lock the aforementioned PBS and Mhz stations - I get occasional dropouts instead of occasional picture.

i am looking for a indoor antenna that can recieve hdtv broadcast well from 15-35 miles.......i live in battle creek, mi....and help would be much appreciated

Originally posted by bigkev4123
i am looking for a indoor antenna that can recieve hdtv broadcast well from 15-35 miles.......i live in battle creek, mi....and help would be much appreciated

Go HERE (http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Welcome.aspx) and click on "Choose an antenna" - follow the instructions.

thanks but this really isnt what i was looking for...i was looking for opinions on indoor antennas that people have used for this same range in distance that i need(15-35 miles) any more help would be great

Originally posted by bigkev4123
thanks but this really isnt what i was looking for...i was looking for opinions on indoor antennas that people have used for this same range in distance that i need(15-35 miles) any more help would be great

OK, I understand. But unless you get the opinion of your neighbor, most likely other opinions will not be relevant to your situation/location. Everybody's geography and surroundings will be different.

I can get 5 of the 6 OTA signals by pointing my antenna in one direction. The 6th one has to be pointed 90 degrees away and I lose the other 5. I have tried a preamp and that helps a little but still I can only get either 1 or 5 and it really degrades my analog signal. Is there a good multidirection antenna set up by which I can get all 6. The 5 in one direction are about 17 miles away while the 6th (FOX) is 40 Miles away. I am trying to make it livable for my wife so that she doesnt have to rotate antenna between the two set ups.

The alternativeI was thinking was two antennas connect through an AB switch so that all you have to do is switch rather than rotate.

Originally posted by seadoo
I can get 5 of the 6 OTA signals by pointing my antenna in one direction. The 6th one has to be pointed 90 degrees away and I lose the other 5. I have tried a preamp and that helps a little but still I can only get either 1 or 5 and it really degrades my analog signal. Is there a good multidirection antenna set up by which I can get all 6. The 5 in one direction are about 17 miles away while the 6th (FOX) is 40 Miles away. I am trying to make it livable for my wife so that she doesnt have to rotate antenna between the two set ups.

The alternativeI was thinking was two antennas connect through an AB switch so that all you have to do is switch rather than rotate.

Yes, there are omni-directional antennas, but they sacrifice gain in order mto "hear" from all directions. If your stations are close enough and the gain of the directional antenna is not needed, an omni will probably pull the five and the one. I like the idea of two antennas, but someone more knowledgeable tan I will need to comment on that configuration. A switch would surely work, but perhaps a combiner could be used instead of a switch . .

Originally posted by seadoo
I can get 5 of the 6 OTA signals by pointing my antenna in one direction. The 6th one has to be pointed 90 degrees away and I lose the other 5. I have tried a preamp and that helps a little but still I can only get either 1 or 5 and it really degrades my analog signal. Is there a good multidirection antenna set up by which I can get all 6. The 5 in one direction are about 17 miles away while the 6th (FOX) is 40 Miles away. I am trying to make it livable for my wife so that she doesnt have to rotate antenna between the two set ups.

The alternativeI was thinking was two antennas connect through an AB switch so that all you have to do is switch rather than rotate.

Look into a Channel Master "Jointenna" designed for the frequency that's off-axis. Hook up a second antenna, plug both into the Jointenna and you should be fine. Keep in mind, though, that while the Jointenna is rated for one channel, there is some "bleed" a couple of channels in each direction. So if your stations are on adjoinging channels, you might still have trouble.

Ill give jointenna a try. My stations are at 27,28,30,58.60

The off axis one is at 38 so hopefully that is far enough off. If it works my wife will thank you even though she won't know it.

Does anyone make Antenna Rotors other than Channel Master ? I am looking for something that moves even a little faster than 1 RPM. I saw within the last month a press release for a antenna rotor that has one degree accuracy is setting direction but a search has not found mention of this product.

Chucka

Originally posted by Chucka
Does anyone make Antenna Rotors other than Channel Master ? I am looking for something that moves even a little faster than 1 RPM. I saw within the last month a press release for a antenna rotor that has one degree accuracy is setting direction but a search has not found mention of this product.

Channel Master's remote controlled rotor is probably what they were talking about. You can set it by 1 degree increments.

I don't know about faster, but check out Ham radio groups for other rotor options. You'll probably spend a lot more than $100 to get one, but their stuff defines "industrial grade."

Look at http://www.eham.net/reviews/products/24
for many rotor options. I've not seen another one other than the CM rotor with remote control, though.

Charles

This "faster rotor" talk reminds me of racing small electric cars and the tweaks we used to do to get them to go faster - custom wind the motor, balance the shafts - the early equivalent of overclocking.

I am located in the Dallas/Ft Worth area and have a question about my setup. I have a mits ws55813, samsung t351, a terk indoor hdtv ant.

I would like to increase the signal strength in all my channels. I live approx 20-25 miles away from most broadcast towers. The signals are ok, but I would like to get them from 80-90 percent. Right now most are at 40-50 percent. Channel 8.1 (vhf) comes in great. Do the cheap amplifiers help this situation at all. I don't want to hang anything on the roof. The attic is a possibility but wanted to keep the setup simple. Does anyone use the indoor style antennas?

What are some suggestions? Again I know bigger is better but I want to get around the large antenna setup if I can.

Thanks for all your time and replies,

Steve

Originally posted by stevenxowens792
I am located in the Dallas/Ft Worth area and have a question about my setup. I have a mits ws55813, samsung t351, a terk indoor hdtv ant.

I would like to increase the signal strength in all my channels. I live approx 20-25 miles away from most broadcast towers. The signals are ok, but I would like to get them from 80-90 percent. Right now most are at 40-50 percent. Channel 8.1 (vhf) comes in great. Do the cheap amplifiers help this situation at all. I don't want to hang anything on the roof. The attic is a possibility but wanted to keep the setup simple. Does anyone use the indoor style antennas?

What are some suggestions? Again I know bigger is better but I want to get around the large antenna setup if I can.

Thanks for all your time and replies,

Steve


Hi Steve,

You'll probably get more knowledgeable members commenting manana, but I'm still awake . .

You can amplify the signals from your terk, but you may be amplifying the noise along with the signal and not really improving your situation. The only real way of getting more signal (and higher signal to noise ratio) is to, well . . get more signal. And to do that you need a bigger antenna. What about HD cable or satellite?

I have two tv's that have hd chasis built in. A sony xbr wega, and the mits ws55. I have had both for almost 3 years now. I just purchased the samsung 351 for OTA. I would like to get this setup polished first before getting the dish network hd.

So far the picture I get from the little terk is clear, but I just want it better.
I don't see much as far as artifacts or anything like that. But, then again my eyes are not perfect.

Again any tidbits are appreciated. I really would like to get a strong signal.
I know that Radio Shack sells a mid range antenna for like 35 bones.

Maybe that in the attic would do the trick. I just hate running wires through the wall. I have a vaulted ceiling and it is a big hassle.

Thanks again,

Steven O

This is in reference to my above setup post.

If (say for instance) I am getting 5 bars of signal strength on the sammy 351 for channel 5.1 (NBC), how many more bars would I get if I used a cheap amplifier? One bar? Maybe 2?

Thanks again,

Steven O

Originally posted by stevenxowens792
This is in reference to my above setup post.

If (say for instance) I am getting 5 bars of signal strength on the sammy 351 for channel 5.1 (NBC), how many more bars would I get if I used a cheap amplifier? One bar? Maybe 2? Potentially none.

Most "signal strength" meters are really "signal quality" meters, showing the amount of forward error correction data remaining for use. Thus getting a stronger signal doesn't mean getting a signal requiring any less error correction which might result from interference or multipath issues. In fact, a cheap amplifier could very well add more noise to your signal or amplify existing noise such that the signal-to-noise ratio is reduced and the receiver is unable to process more of the signal, reducing the signal quality reading you see.

So you won't know your situation until you try, and you really want to use a preamp that has a low noise figure, which means avoid cheap amplifiers.

It might help some stations which have low signals; it could hurt others that already have relatively strong or clean signals.

Originally posted by stevenxowens792

Again any tidbits are appreciated. I really would like to get a strong signal.
I know that Radio Shack sells a mid range antenna for like 35 bones.


All right, class. Let's say the antenna basics mantra one more time:

"Bigger is better. Higher is better. Outside is better."

I'd buy a UHF only from Antennasdirect (the DB4 or DB8) for your attic (outside would be better), use what you have now for VHF, and combine the two using a Channel Master #0549.

A preamplifier isn't going to help your signal.

Samsung's signal meter sucks.

The signal meter on the samsung t351 only determines the amount of correction it will need to produce the signal? Does this mean that the picture will not look any different if you have 5 bars or 10. Sorry I am still trying to understand this piece of the puzzle. I appreciate all your help.

Take Care,

Steven O

Originally posted by stevenxowens792
The signal meter on the samsung t351 only determines the amount of correction it will need to produce the signal? Does this mean that the picture will not look any different if you have 5 bars or 10. Sorry I am still trying to understand this piece of the puzzle. I appreciate all your help.


Once you have an artifact-free picture, it doesn't get any better. More bars won't make things look better. A bigger antenna won't make things look better. A better TV will, but...

Most people who want to increase signal strength want to do so because their reception is less than reliable. IOW, they get macroblocking (artifacts) or drop-outs (completely black screen) from time to time. If you aren't getting either of these, your reception is "perfect" and doesn't need to be improved.

I'm 40 miles away from pretty much every station I want to get, and they're all within 1 degree of each other (208 and 209). I can mount something on the chimney, but I would prefer it wouldn't be absolutely huge. I figure I'll have to get some kind of amp, but I would like to know what kind of antenna someone would recommend in this situation and perhaps where to look for someone to install it.

Originally posted by jhill
I'm 40 miles away from pretty much every station I want to get, and they're all within 1 degree of each other (208 and 209). I can mount something on the chimney, but I would prefer it wouldn't be absolutely huge. I figure I'll have to get some kind of amp, but I would like to know what kind of antenna someone would recommend in this situation and perhaps where to look for someone to install it.

Try a Channel Master 4228 or an AntennasDirect.com DB8. At 40 miles, you probably don't need a preamplifier, but make sure your installer brings a CM7777 or 7775 (the former if you need high-VHF reception, the latter if you don't need any VHF reception.)

The yellow pages is where I found my installer. Call around and listen to the installers. If they're unfriendly, hype a specific product, or guarantee results, they're probably not reputable.

Originally posted by sregener
Try a Channel Master 4228 or an AntennasDirect.com DB8. At 40 miles, you probably don't need a preamplifier, but make sure your installer brings a CM7777 or 7775 (the former if you need high-VHF reception, the latter if you don't need any VHF reception.)

The yellow pages is where I found my installer. Call around and listen to the installers. If they're unfriendly, hype a specific product, or guarantee results, they're probably not reputable.

Thanks a lot, this is exactly what I was looking for!

Does the CM 4228 provide VHF? All the signals I need to get right now are UHF but reading the rest of the thread makes me want to have both.

Originally posted by jhill

Does the CM 4228 provide VHF? All the signals I need to get right now are UHF but reading the rest of the thread makes me want to have both.

UHF antennas (of which the CM4228 is one) do get some signal on high-VHF stations. They don't get much of anything on low-VHF.

VHF antennas have the disadvantage of being very large due to the longer wavelengths involved.

VHF/UHF combos have the disadvantage of being very large like VHF antennas, and generally have poor UHF performance comapred to a dedicated UHF antenna.

If you're trying to future-proof, a combo might work fine for you. If you just want something that works for HD now and let the future (or distant future, as the case may be) work itself out later, go with the UHF and enjoy the current digital environment.

Average "life" of an antenna is about 10 years, after which they start having serious structural issues, as well as corrosion and other bad effects. They may work, and some last much longer, but that's a good guideline.

It is entirely possible that newer antenna designs will be heavily skewed toward UHF and potentially high-VHF as well, which would be a vastly superior design for what most expect the final digital landscape will look like.

I have places in suburban NYC (about 45 miles from transmitters), Florida (Delray Beach area), where I get most WPB and Miami OTA, and Seattle, where I am right in town. New York is tough since the Towers went down. Most locals are back, and I get them with a three antenna array I have rigged in my attic, using a reversed TERK 3 way splitter, CM preamps, and a CM line amp. I have signal from CT, NYC, and Long Island, which requires 3 antennnas because of the various directions. It works. I use a 20 year old CM corner reflector, which had been up there, unused, since cable (and now SAT). Naturally, it works best. Supplemented with a CM double "cat whisker", and then a single CM "cat whisker" for CT stations. Tried the TERK 45 and 55 (waste of time), a special Channel 10 Yagi made by CM (for CT ABC in New Haven, which was the only V), which didn't do anything, and later proved unnecessary, and finally ended up with that mess I described. Major disappointment: NBC owned WNBC DT on Channel 28, Big owner like that, running low power. Can't get a thing. Meantime, CBS and ABC (on two channels, one NYC, the other New Haven) bang in like a local. Anyway, it sure is fun. Running 2 HD receivers. Samsung 61 inch DLP, and Sony 30 inch flat panel LCD. Both superb.

Can you guys suffer through one more "I can't get this station" post?

Here's my setup:
Winegard 8800 8 bay bowtie antenna, roof/tripod mounted w/5 foot pole. Winegard 4800 UHF amp. Approx 75 feet of RG6 cable. HDTivo to receive signals.

Here are my stations/distances. All stations are within 3 degrees of each other at my location (Marysville, Michigan - near Detroit).

Here are my stations/distances/broadcast power:

WTVS-DT (PBS) 200 kW Ch 43 at 47.4 miles
WJBK-DT (FOX) 1000 kW Ch 58 at 48.4 miles
WWJ-DT (CBS) 200 kW Ch 44 at 47.4 miles
WDIV-DT (NBC) 973 kW Ch 45 at 47.1 miles
WXYZ-DT (ABC) 770 kW Ch 41 at 49.4 miles
WKBD-DT (UPN) 200 kW Ch 14 at 51.4 miles

OK, that said, I am getting ALL stations above with a decent, stable signal EXCEPT WXYZ-DT (ABC).

This is driving me nuts. I can't for the life of me understand why I can't receive this signal. All others, including some much lower power stations, come in fine. I do have some trees just to the left of my line of sight, but they apparently aren't affecting the other stations.

When I look at my signal meter for this station, it bounces all over in the lower numbers (0-30 usually), but every now and then it will spike and reach 0-80, then drop off within a few seconds.

Sometimes it does come in for a little while at night, but with lots of dropouts. I don't think the signal is much above 40 when this happens.

I have tried a Radioshack signal attenuator, but all that did was lower everything. Made no difference with ABC.

Any ideas? Is my antenna considered a good one? Is there better?

I'm considering a Channelmaster 4248 Yagi, I've heard good things about it, but it's only rated to 45 miles.

I'm also considering a Channelmaster 4228 8-Bay, but I already have the Winegard 8 Bay, so isn't it the same? Or is the Channelmaster better?

Also considering anything from Antennas Direct (either the 8 bay or the yagi's).

Any help or insight or advice would be greatly appreciated. I'm really confused as to why this channel eludes me when all others are fine. Especially when some are at lower power and same distance. :confused:

HELP!!!

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/siting.html
I'm guess guessing here, but I think you found a cold spot for your ABC affiliate on channel 41. You can try moving the antenna up or down the mast to see if that helps. Next would be roaming around the roof to try and find a hot spot.

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html
The antenna you have now is pretty good, you shouldn't see much of any gain going to a 4228 or a 4248, maybe an extra decibel with the 4228. The DB-8 might be better, as I've read a few positive posts about it, but I don't know for sure. Your pre-amp's pretty good, and your balun, if it's an outdoor one, should be fine as well. Maybe AltAntMike will chime in. :)

Cold spot? I did read that on the link you provided. Mysterious, no?

The mast is mounted and I'm very reluctant to move it.

I found a good local dealer (Solid Signal) that will allow me to return an antenna if I try it and it doesn't work.

I read on the Antennas Direct site that they would do the same.

Maybe it's time to experiment! I just hate doing all that roof climbing :(

Thanks for the comments.

Andy,

I can relate to your frustration. I am only 5-6 miles away from most of the Indy towers. Three years ago when I got my first STB, I put up the Channel Master 4221 (4-bay) around 20-22 feet. Then when I hooked it up to the STB, the results were great except for one station on ch. 45. For this channel the STB meter was indicating ZERO signal! How could this be with a station only 5 miles away and at the time putting out 200kW?! I took it down in disgust and began moving it around. Guess where I found the best reception of this channel? I got the strongest signal with the 4221 sitting on the floor in my basement!!! I believe my problem was related to multipath, since I live so close. I then tried the CM 4228 (8-bay) outside on the mast in the same location and the reception was fine for this channel and all the others.

Another thought is that the signal from WXYZ-DT is actually too strong with your preamp. I've experienced this before, too, but usually an attenuator will remedy this situation, which I see did not help your situation. Have you tried your current antenna setup without the preamp in place? Maybe you would be ok without it.

Good luck. Steve

Originally posted by 3DCadman
Cold spot? I did read that on the link you provided. Mysterious, no?

The mast is mounted and I'm very reluctant to move it.


If you think about waves, it's really not so mysterious. Think about a rock in water and how a wave hits it. There are spots behind the rock where certain waves just don't hit. Since you're probably dealing with some blockage of the signal at your distance, there are places where signals aren't hitting. The Winegard PR-8800, however, has a pretty big "hot spot" compared to yagis and corner reflectors - in theory, you should be getting a signal if the wave is hitting one or two of the bowties.

If you haven't already, contact the station manager at the station giving you trouble and see if they've had other reports of reception difficulty. It also would pay to search on their call letters in this forum.

If you're trying to fix a cold spot, you don't necessarily need to move the mast - just move the antenna up or down on the mast by about 12". If it makes no difference, then things get more tricky, but if it really is just a cold spot, I'd expect that to fix things for you. Of course, you may inadvertently move the antenna into a cold spot for another channel that currently isn't giving you trouble.

Generally speaking, if you have one design of antenna and it isn't working, replacing it with a similar design isn't going to make a big difference. One 8-bay antenna is just about as good as another. There are minor differences, but you shouldn't expect any 8-bay to dramatically outperform your current one. If I was to experiment, I'd try a serious yagi, such as the 91XG from AntennasDirect, the Televes DAT75 (not available domestically -must be shipped internationally, and thus hard to return) or the like. I was unimpressed with the Channel Master 4248 both in build quality, and reception. It was almost identical to my Winegard HD7084P for reception, and in some cases worse.

Thank you to everyone for the advice.

I think I may try the Antennas Direct 91XG yagi model. They have a good return policy if it doesn't work.

I will try various height locations on my mast to see what works best.

Thanks again. Time to get my courage up to make the multiple trips on the roof holding an antenna attached to a pole :eek:

Just a quick antenna neophyte question.

If one places the antenna in the attic, should it still be grounded?

When we built our house we had it pre-wired with RG-6 up there and left had an antenna placed up there, just havent set it up. Been waiting for more locals to be integrated into the cable lineup, but now I am sick of waiting.

Originally posted by dresf
Just a quick antenna neophyte question.

If one places the antenna in the attic, should it still be grounded?

This thread has discussed that thoroughly.

Originally posted by dresf

If one places the antenna in the attic, should it still be grounded?


While I understand and appreciate those who are bothered by the same questions being asked over and over again, even in the same thread, I also empathize with those who, for lack of time, don't read every message in every thread. It is especially onerous to complain about a failure to read the thread (and not provide an answer) when the answer is shorter than the complaint.

In short: No. There is no benefit to grounding an antenna indoors.

Originally posted by sregener
While I understand and appreciate those who are bothered by the same questions being asked over and over again, even in the same thread, I also empathize with those who, for lack of time, don't read every message in every thread. It is especially onerous to complain about a failure to read the thread (and not provide an answer) when the answer is shorter than the complaint.

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. The "fishing" in this case is "searching." But you're right; I should have added the answer to my reply out of courtesy..

Thanks for the info!

Pepar: Why is it such a bother on all boards that a question is asked over and over again. Are some of the stogdy members thumbs so arthritic from scrolling all day that they consider it inconvienent to just move past a stupid repetitive question. Hey I was in a hurry. What IS the BIG deal??
Apology accepted and the above rant isnt directed at you but a general rant to ones who continually post RTFA or RTFFAQ's. Fortunately this board is full of helpful people unlike some others. God Bless this board.

Amen

I posted this in this forum but also thought it might be helpful to some who are reading this thread. Tried the Gearviews section but there's no place for antenna preamps.

Review of RC PHEMT HDTV LNA
Continuing in my quest for better and farther digital TV reception, I recently obtained a PHEMT GaAsFet low noise preamp (Research Communications in England) to try out. My current setup includes a CM 7777 and the antenna rig I've attached at the bottom of this post. The HDTV LNA as it's called has specs which include 20db gain and .4db noise figure and is designed for uhf frequencies. It is mast mountable with a weatherproof case available. It comes with either 75 ohm F connectors or BNC's.

I was very frustrated initially because I couldn't even get my strongest stations with the new amp. I eventually figured out that I needed an FM trap in-line because of local FM interference. Once that was done, the performance approached that of the CM 7777 but overall the CM 7777 was still superior in my setup in drawing in distant, weak stations (i.e. 5 kw at 65 mi omnidirectional). Why was it not better? I think in my case it was due to my 125 ft. cable run and the CM 7777 with it's higher gain simply is a better match for my setup. I did try adding the CM in-line amp available at Lowes (13 db gain, 3.5 db nf) as well as even adding my CM 7777 as an in-line amp but although the gain was increased as expected, the reception was never quite up to the level as with the 7777 on the mast. Most of my testing was geared towards uhf but interestingly the HDTV LNA does amplify vhf and I was able to tune vhf stations at times even off of my uhf rig.

I'd be interested in how the performance would have been with a shorter cable run as I do believe this company makes a good product. However, it should also make those of you out there using the CM7777/7775 feel pretty good about your preamp.

Originally posted by dresf
Thanks for the info!

Pepar: Why is it such a bother on all boards that a question is asked over and over again...

Amen

Why is it such a bother to you that people ask questions for which you may have knowledge?

There are two types of people in this world.

There are those who will willingly wade through quite a bit of not necessarrily closely related material in order to garner specific information. Then, there are those who find it comfortable to ask someone who they think may know of the specific information.

The question asked cost you little or nothing but that you chose to be involved with it. Should everone in want of a wheel have to go through the process of inventing it?

We all have our irritations in life. In many cases, providing directions to those you perceive as less dilligent ought to be considered a simple courtesy in life...or, you can simply pass. (As perhaps I should have.)

"Duck, hide...run for cover." - Chuck Berry

Originally posted by dresf
Why is it such a bother on all boards that a question is asked over and over again.[...]Hey I was in a hurry. What IS the BIG deal??

Actually, I'm on both sides with this one. Pepar took a lot of time to rant that you should have searched. The answer was a quick and easy one.

At the same time, if you've been on this board as long as I have, you start seeing the same questions asked over and over and over again and you wonder just how many times you have to type the answer before people will get it. You think you're just throwing your time away because the answers have already been given. At some point, experienced members throw in the towel and stop reading the board because it's like playing "Whack-a-Mole." The same moles keep popping up and when you have to hit each one, one at a time.

I suspect a search on 'grounding' 'indoor' and 'antenna' would have yielded you quicker results than posting and waiting for a reply.

Originally posted by dresf
Thanks for the info!

Pepar: Why is it such a bother on all boards that a question is asked over and over again. Are some of the stogdy members thumbs so arthritic from scrolling all day that they consider it inconvienent to just move past a stupid repetitive question. Hey I was in a hurry. What IS the BIG deal??
Apology accepted and the above rant isnt directed at you but a general rant to ones who continually post RTFA or RTFFAQ's. Fortunately this board is full of helpful people unlike some others. God Bless this board.

Amen

I, personally, don't consider it a bother. I've seen some threads devoted to "improving" the forum and the subject came up as to how to streamline the forum. The "concern" was that threads scrolled too quickly to pg 2, pg 3, etc, and became too unweildy causing new readers to have to go through pages and pages of the same, repetitive information. I'm sorry that I seemed terse.

Originally posted by dresf
God Bless this board.

Amen

Amen indeed.

OK, OK, point taken.

Originally posted by OneArchitect
Why is it such a bother to you that people ask questions for which you may have knowledge?

There are two types of people in this world.

There are those who will willingly wade through quite a bit of not necessarrily closely related material in order to garner specific information. Then, there are those who find it comfortable to ask someone who they think may know of the specific information.

The question asked cost you little or nothing but that you chose to be involved with it. Should everone in want of a wheel have to go through the process of inventing it?

We all have our irritations in life. In many cases, providing directions to those you perceive as less dilligent ought to be considered a simple courtesy in life...or, you can simply pass. (As perhaps I should have.)

"Duck, hide...run for cover." - Chuck Berry

Originally posted by sregener
Actually, I'm on both sides with this one. Pepar took a lot of time to rant that you should have searched.

You've obviously never seen me rant. :D

I am now guilty of semi-OT posts that will inevitably push this thread to yet another page causing interminable scrolling and discouraging members from reading to find their answers.

Forum Admins: I see no way to streamline this forum by encouraging people to search on their own. It will always be easier to simply ask the question than to search for oneself. And efforts to encourage searching are met with heat directed at the person suggesting it, regardless of how tactfully it is done. OK, perhaps I could have een a bit more tactful . . .

I have a Mitsubish set with an integrated tuner - ws65869. I recently had an antenna installer install an antenna, preamp, and amp. I am located in Chantilly VA a very low lying area. I get great video reception but I am not getting any audio. Well the audio works about 1% of the time but ususally does not work at all. rebooting the tv does not fix it. I have the latest 1.04 firmware.

At my previous address everything worked fine. I am wondering if the amplified antenna is causing the audio to not work most of the time. The fact that the audio only works 1% of the time is confusing me, I am not sure if the problem is with the firmware, internal tuner, or amplified antenna setup. Can someone please help with ideas? I do not have extended warranty so please help!

Thanks,
Tom

Originally posted by thomasamiller

At my previous address everything worked fine. I am wondering if the amplified antenna is causing the audio to not work most of the time. The fact that the audio only works 1% of the time is confusing me, I am not sure if the problem is with the firmware, internal tuner, or amplified antenna setup. Can someone please help with ideas? I do not have extended warranty so please help!


With digital reception, the audio stream is encoded in the same way (and stream) as the video stream - they're in the same datastream. Thus, if you're getting a digital picture that is reasonably breakup-free, there is no reason not to have audio. Most likely your television is malfunctioning.

I recently installed a terk 5 by 8 multiswitch and ran the outdoor radio shack antenna though the multiswitch. I live in Nashville TN. I am approximately 10 miles from the local CBS affiliate and the antenna is aimed directly at the tower. I am about 6 miles from the local ABC affilate and the antenna is aimed in the exact opposite direction. Prior to the multiswitch install, I was nailing the signal from CBS but getting next to nothing from ABC. This is logical. Now after the install, I get a good signal from ABC, inspite of the directional placement of the antenna, and next to nothing from CBS. This is not logical. What gives?

I currently connect to analog TV using a set of rabbit ears. I am thinking about getting an ATI HDTV Wonder card so that I can watch the olympics in HD (yes, i know about the looped programming and all that, but i love swimming and track...so i want it!!!), but I'm not sure about the reception. I currently get WRC-TV as a really static noisy picture (grainy). I'm guessing the equivalent of that in DT would be a stream with constant breakups...I checked with antennaweb.org and they showed me with a blue rating for WRC ("You need a Medium Directional Antenna with pre-amp"). Do you think I can slip by with my rabbit ear antennas with a built-in amplifier? What about an indoor antenna recommendation? When it comes to outdoor antennas...i simply am unable to climb roofs....

why not cable or satellite? cox cable is too expensive...same for voom, dish, and directv

Originally posted by xbgamer
I currently connect to analog TV using a set of rabbit ears. I am thinking about getting an ATI HDTV Wonder card so that I can watch the olympics in HD (yes, i know about the looped programming and all that, but i love swimming and track...so i want it!!!), but I'm not sure about the reception. I currently get WRC-TV as a really static noisy picture (grainy). I'm guessing the equivalent of that in DT would be a stream with constant breakups...I checked with antennaweb.org and they showed me with a blue rating for WRC ("You need a Medium Directional Antenna with pre-amp"). Do you think I can slip by with my rabbit ear antennas with a built-in amplifier? What about an indoor antenna recommendation? When it comes to outdoor antennas...i simply am unable to climb roofs....

why not cable or satellite? cox cable is too expensive...same for voom, dish, and directv

I'd say it's a safe bet that if antennaweb call for a medium antenna w/pre-amp, rabbit ears WON'T do. As for the indoor (attic?) location, it would probably take the same medium w/pre-amp as indoor mounting cuts signal depending on construction materials used.

ok...stupid question...what if i kept an outdoor antenna inside my bedroom, next to the window? I have never been up in the attic of this house (rental), so I don't know whats up there [or how to open the attic door, lol].

Give it a try. It could double as a clothesline. :D

lol, yea, that works too.

btw, i'm on your HT Upgrade site...and I must say...WOW!!! my home theater setup? 5 speakers in the approximate areas and the sub laying on the floor next to my xbox :-P. no acoustical measurements for me...

Originally posted by xbgamer
my home theater setup? 5 speakers in the approximate areas and the sub laying on the floor next to my xbox :-P. no acoustical measurements for me...

Do you enjoy it? That's what's important.

Originally posted by xbgamer
ok...stupid question...what if i kept an outdoor antenna inside my bedroom, next to the window? I have never been up in the attic of this house (rental), so I don't know whats up there [or how to open the attic door, lol].
That's exactly what I have done. I have a CM3021 in my office window, suspended from the top of the window frame to get the best height.

It works pretty dam well ... except that there is no possibility of turning it. I am ok with that at this point, since I receive pretty much every network from one city or another (but not every channel).

Just make sure the window in question doesn't have a metal screen in it.

I have a 120 inch Radio Shack directional antenna installed in my attic for use with my Direct TV HD/Tivo. I get great reception on all of the OTA HD channels in my area except one, FOX 25.
I have my antenna pointed at 50 degrees, which is straight at the "antenna farm" 22 miles away where several of the towers are. My receiver registers only 25-30 for that channel, yet it registers in the 70-80 range for other channels with towers in that same place.
Can anyone tell me if a preamp would improve the reception from this channel or is it simply too weak a signal.
I am in Bellingham, MA and the towers are located in Needham, MA.

Thanks.

Originally posted by mbtobe
I get great reception on all of the OTA HD channels in my area except one, FOX 25. I have my antenna pointed at 50 degrees, which is straight at the "antenna farm" 22 miles away where several of the towers are. My receiver registers only 25-30 for that channel, yet it registers in the 70-80 range for other channels with towers in that same place.
Can anyone tell me if a preamp would improve the reception from this channel or is it simply too weak a signal.


I know I'm talking to the wind here, but when you have problems with a local affiliate, PLEASE post the call letters. It saves a lot of work for the rest of us.

WFXT-DT is running at 78kw ERP, directional, though it appears to be sending 80% of the signal your way. This is moderate power, and would be plenty if you had an outdoor antenna. Generally speaking, amplifiers/preamplifiers are only good in very weak signal areas, far away from all transmitters. As close as you are, it is unlikely that it would help.

Either get that antenna out in the open air where God intended antennas to be, or get a stronger UHF antenna. Radio Shack antennas are not known for their UHF reception capabilities, especially the VHF/UHF combos. Contact Stark Electronics about getting a Channel Master 3021 or 4228 and a Channel Master #0549 to combine your existing VHF reception with the superior UHF design of the CM.

Originally posted by pepar
Do you enjoy it? That's what's important.


lol, its ok. way better than my 4watt built-in stereo TV speakers, but if i only move the speakers here and there a little bit, it would be way better, but i'm too lazy :o

Originally posted by sregener
I know I'm talking to the wind here, but when you have problems with a local affiliate, PLEASE post the call letters. It saves a lot of work for the rest of us.

WFXT-DT is running at 78kw ERP, directional, though it appears to be sending 80% of the signal your way. This is moderate power, and would be plenty if you had an outdoor antenna. Generally speaking, amplifiers/preamplifiers are only good in very weak signal areas, far away from all transmitters. As close as you are, it is unlikely that it would help.

Either get that antenna out in the open air where God intended antennas to be, or get a stronger UHF antenna. Radio Shack antennas are not known for their UHF reception capabilities, especially the VHF/UHF combos. Contact Stark Electronics about getting a Channel Master 3021 or 4228 and a Channel Master #0549 to combine your existing VHF reception with the superior UHF design of the CM.

Thank you.

Indoor Antenna Question: Regarding Amplifiers
I have a question about amplifiers on indoor antenna's, but I will give some background to my setup.

I am using an indoor RCA amplified antenna(Model#ANT200B. VHF/UHF FM) which can be found at CC, Walmart, or Target. Or it's improved brother or cousin(Phillips) which I will get to in a minute. The ANTENNA has an amplification of up to +25dbs. It is connected to a Recoton 4-way splitter(which I got on an open box at BB for $5, even though only two of the outputs are used) which, when plugged in has an amplification of +10dbs. The outputs are connected to a Yamaha HTR-5590 for FM, and a Sylvania SRZ3000 HD STB(nice, cheap entry to people interested to HD).

I have four digital stations that I receive between 15-30 mile radius, and one(CBS/KDKA out of Pittsburgh) which is 50 miles away(PGH is South of me), but I believe is the only one operating at full power(1000 kws or greater, whatever FULL power is, it is operating at it.) The four digital stations come in, on average, between 75-95. It fluctuates greatly sometimes when going from of the four to the next, but that is because I am just too lazy to adjust the antenna for optimum level on whatever channel I am on(I found somewhat of a "sweet spot" but not perfect). KDKA/CBS out of Pittsburgh is consistently in the 80-85 range, although I am 50 miles away. I've watched during the day, night, good weather(clear), and bad weather(cloudy, thunderstorms, rain, etc....) but the antenna level is almost always between 80-85. The dipoles on the antenna are always extended to their full extent. Although the dipoles are used for VHF/FM, they GREATLY help in the reception of the UHF channels for some reason, so I leave them up. All channels mentioned are UHF, and are MAPPED UHF. All this and I live in a Wooded area, surrounded by trees with full leaves(some 30ft or higher). There now you know my topography and my connection situation(and at this point, my life story! )

Today I saw that both RCA and Phillips have new amplified antenna's that now each have an adjustable gain for both VHF/FM and UHF. They are seperate from each other. There gains are as follows:

1. RCA: Up to 45dbs gain on VHF/FM. Up to 35dbs gain on UHF.

2. Phillips: Up to 45dbs gain on VHF/FM. Up to 30dbs gain on UHF.

My question is would picking up either one of these actually HELP my overall INDOOR reception. Would my average antenna rating(75-85) be GREATLY/ or SOMEWHAT increased with the higher amplified gain on both of these antennas?(an average of +40 between the two, as compared to the +25dbs I am getting now). Does there come a point in AMPLIFYING that you could have a amplification of +100dbs on your antenna, but +40dbs will get you the same results you are getting now.

Will the average +20dbs amplification on both antenna's give me better results?(instead of an average 75-85 range, the average could be significantly higher. 85-100 range). Or should I just keep my money.

An analogy to this(it is stupid so bear with me) is sunblock. 30 SPF or above will keep you well protected. The ones that are 35 or above, aren't going to keep you anymore protected then the SPF 30. Kind of an overkill.

Is the antenna amplification the same deal?

Thanx for your help in advance

--STEELERSRULE

Originally posted by STEELERSRULE
I have four digital stations that I receive between 15-30 mile radius, and one(CBS/KDKA out of Pittsburgh) which is 50 miles away(PGH is South of me), but I believe is the only one operating at full power(1000 kws or greater, whatever FULL power is, it is operating at it.) The four digital stations come in, on average, between 75-95.

My question is would picking up either one of these actually HELP my overall INDOOR reception. Would my average antenna rating(75-85) be GREATLY/ or SOMEWHAT increased with the higher amplified gain on both of these antennas?(an average of +40 between the two, as compared to the +25dbs I am getting now). Does there come a point in AMPLIFYING that you could have a amplification of +100dbs on your antenna, but +40dbs will get you the same results you are getting now.


There is probably no additional amplification that will raise your signal-to-noise ratio in any meaningful way. As it is, either the amplified splitter or the internal amplifier is probably doing more harm than good. Once your signal is above the noise floor (as it most certainly is when you boost it 25db) there is no additional gain to be had be increasing that signal by amplification. Only by getting a better signal to amplify (i.e. getting a bigger antenna or locating it in a more optimal location) will your signal meter show a higher rating.

Signal strength meters on most STBs are really signal *quality* meters, and this can't be improved by amplification. You can overcome line loss and splitter loss with amplification, but you can't make the signal any cleaner than what it was when it hit the antenna. In other words, the limiting factor here isn't your amplifier - it's your antenna.

If you overamplify a signal, it is worse than no amplification at all, since the highs and lows will be "clipped" yielding a lower signal-to-noise ratio, and potentially destroying the signal altogether.

If it was me, I'd save my money for a project likely to yield some worthwhile results. You'd be throwing your money away since you already get good/great signals.

Originally posted by xbgamer
I currently connect to analog TV using a set of rabbit ears. I am thinking about getting an ATI HDTV Wonder card so that I can watch the olympics in HD (yes, i know about the looped programming and all that, but i love swimming and track...so i want it!!!), but I'm not sure about the reception. I currently get WRC-TV as a really static noisy picture (grainy). I'm guessing the equivalent of that in DT would be a stream with constant breakups...I checked with antennaweb.org and they showed me with a blue rating for WRC ("You need a Medium Directional Antenna with pre-amp"). Do you think I can slip by with my rabbit ear antennas with a built-in amplifier? What about an indoor antenna recommendation? When it comes to outdoor antennas...i simply am unable to climb roofs....

why not cable or satellite? cox cable is too expensive...same for voom, dish, and directv


here is an attached image of how the analog TV signal is using rabbit ears...think I can get away with rabbit ears?

and another image...

xbgamer, rabbit ears are good for VHF signals; most (though not all) digital stations are in the UHF band. Not knowing where you are, I can't see what stations are involved, but if you take a look you might find that you need to be using a UHF antenna. Something like the Zenith Silver Sensor might work for you, and still let you keep a moderately small antenna indoors.

ok...i'm in a washington, d.c. suburb...a direct copy and paste from antennaweb:

* yellow - uhf WNVT-DT 30.1 IND Goldvein VA 184° 18.8 30
* green - uhf WPXW-DT 66.1 PAX Manassas VA 144° 11.0 43
* red - uhf WUSA-DT 9.1 CBS Washington DC 90° 21.6 34
* red - uhf WJLA-DT 7.1 ABC Washington DC 90° 21.6 39
* blue - uhf WETA-DT 26.1 PBS Washington DC 101° 18.5 27
* blue - uhf WHUT-DT 33 PBS Washington DC Testing 90° 21.6 33
* blue - uhf WTTG-DT 5.1 FOX Washington DC 89° 21.5 36
* blue - uhf WRC-DT 4.1 NBC Washington DC 92° 21.4 48
* violet - uhf WBDC-DT 50.1 WB Washington DC 90° 24.5 51
* violet - uhf WNVC-DT 57.1 IND Fairfax VA 107° 13.7 57
* violet - uhf WFDC-DT 15 TFA ARLINGTON VA TBD 92° 21.4 15

Yea, all of the DT channels are in UHF...(i dont know if 15 is or not, but its the spanish speaking channel, so i dont need that). I currently get pretty good UHF channel reception my pair of rabbit ears/UHF loop combo ampilified antenna...i'll post a few screen captures later...

You should also review the Washington DC thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=275834&goto=newpost

Asking your question there also might elicit some answers from people who are closer to your situation and who have already been through this.

I just purchased a Sasem USB2 powered HDTV tuner for my widescreen Dell 8500 laptop (1680x1050 resolution screen). So now, I'm trying to figure out how not to go broke and crazy trying to get reception of the local digitals.

I live in Vestavia Hills, which is just over a mountain from the towers. I'm appx 2.6 miles from the main DTV tower which has CBS, PBS, UPN, and WB (its a 3 spike candelabra design). The NBC and Fox towers are close to that, and the ABC tower is 37 miles away and is the only VHF tower of the bunch. I would like to know if anyone has any recommendations for me. I have installed a CM 3017 antenna in the attic and pointed it as best I can in the direction of the towers. This gives me a signal on everything except ABC. However, the signal results in a picture with occassional hiccups which are consistent throughout the broadcast.

How do I determine if this is a multipath issue or a directional issue? I have installed a line amplifier from Radio Shack and am using a 50ft coaxial cable.

Here's my antennaweb config:

WIAT-DT 42.1 CBS BIRMINGHAM AL 335° 2.6 30
WBRC-DT 6.1 FOX Birmingham AL 346° 2.7 50
WBIH-DT 29 WB SELMA AL 185° 62.9 29
WTTO-DT 21.1 WB HOMEWOOD AL 335° 2.6 28
WVTM-DT 52.1 NBC BIRMINGHAM AL 349° 2.8 52
WCFT-DT 5.1 ABC TUSCALOOSA AL 275° 37.2 5
WBIQ-DT 10.1 PBS Birmingham AL 335° 2.6 53
WABM-DT 68.1 UPN BIRMINGHAM AL 335° 2.6 36

Hmm... VHF-lo 5. Didn't another Sasem owner have trouble with a VHF-lo station (WBBM-DT 3)? He fixed it by using a better power supply.

Periodically, while I am watching my local CBS channel in HD I start to get audio drop out. The picture remains steady with no pixilation. Does anybody know what causes this?

Originally posted by Rack
Hmm... VHF-lo 5. Didn't another Sasem owner have trouble with a VHF-lo station (WBBM-DT 3)? He fixed it by using a better power supply.

You are correct. That user was philjsmith67

He told me that the Sasem engineers told him they couldn't reproduce the noise on their production units so its possible he had a bad power supply. He sent his power supply back to them for testing. I'm not too keen on changing out the power supply, so I think I'll exhaust the other avenues of exploration first. I still have to do a test on the analog signal to see if the telltale noise philjsmith67 mentions is there.

Hi Guys, I just ordered my first HDTV set and an DirectTV HD Tivo to go with it. I'm currently a Dish Network customer and completely new to the OTA thing. I ordered the HD Tivo through the CC web site from within a CC retail store and as a new DirectTV customer they threw in a new dish, a new Terk TV 44 clip-on antenna that is supposed to clip on the dish.

I'm assuming the Terk is a piece of junk and inadequate for my location because most of the other houses around here have bigger antennas. When I go to the antennaweb.org site I get the following information for my exact address.


red - vhf KCEN-DT 9.1 NBC TEMPLE TX 167° 29.4 mi 9
blue - uhf KWBU-DT 34.1 PBS Waco TX 182° 26.1 mi 20
blue - uhf KWTX-DT 10.1 CBS WACO TX 179° 25.8 mi 53
violet - uhf KXXV-DT 25.1 ABC WACO TX 178° 24.7 mi 26
violet - uhf KWKT-DT 44.1 FOX WACO TX 180° 26.2 mi 57

It appears I have a fairly narrow directional range from 167 degrees to 182 degrees and a distance range of 25 to 29 miles so I assume a medium range directional antenna will work. I also have four UHF stations and one VHF station at channel 9 and a recommended antenna range from red VHF to violet UHF.

In terms of installation I will likely be attaching a metal mounting pole to my chiminey which is where my current dish is installed. It is about 20' high and I suspect I can go up another 8' or so with just a pole. I will also have a run of about 75' to the TV.

Any recommendations of what to buy in terms of antennas, amps, and pre-amps? This is all new to me and I was figuring on trying the V15 VHF antenna from antennasdirect.com but that's just a guess on my part. Is there a better choice and do I need an amp or pre-amp for my installation?

Thanks for any advice. I want to get this wired and installed so I'm ready when the TV and receiver arrice.

I have a question regarding getting my local digital channels.

All of the channels I care about getting are located within 20 miles of my location, and according to AntennaWeb they all fall within the yellow-uhf (and only 2 being in the green-uhf/vhf) range.

I live in an apartment that does not face the channel's broadcast towers and I can only mount the antenna on a short pole from the balcony (not clearing the building's roof).

I am considering getting one of these Winegard antennas and I would like to know your opinions of them. They are:

MS-2000
SquareShooter (SS-1000 no-amp or SS-2000 amp)

Do I really need an amp, considering the location of my stations?
Would the amp "overdrive" my TV?
Is there a better alternative to what I have listed above as antenna choices?

Thank you all in advance.

Well I went and bought a Channelmaster 3018 and a 10' mounting pole at Lowes this afternoon. The had the 3018 for $59 and the 3020 for $99. We'll see how it works. I figure with Lowes I can always just pull it down and put it back in the box and return it if it doesn't work.

You can see my location situation 2 posts up. Hopefully this will work for me. My first priority is bringing in the HDTV Olympics which happens to be on VHF channel 9 in my area. The rest of my stations are UHF. That is why I went with a big combination antenna like the 3018.

Originally posted by Bogey62
All of the channels I care about getting are located within 20 miles of my location, and according to AntennaWeb they all fall within the yellow-uhf (and only 2 being in the green-uhf/vhf) range.

...I am considering getting one of these Winegard antennas and I would like to know your opinions of them. They are:

MS-2000
SquareShooter (SS-1000 no-amp or SS-2000 amp)

Do I really need an amp, considering the location of my stations?
Would the amp "overdrive" my TV?
Is there a better alternative to what I have listed above as antenna choices?


The SquareShooter is your best choice, and the unamplified version is best that close to the stations. An amplifier is only good when signals are clean (no ghosts on analogs) but weak (lots of snow on analogs.) At 20 miles, your #1 problem is going to be reflections, not snow.

Avoid multidirectional antennas at all costs.

Originally posted by sregener
The SquareShooter is your best choice, and the unamplified version is best that close to the stations. An amplifier is only good when signals are clean (no ghosts on analogs) but weak (lots of snow on analogs.) At 20 miles, your #1 problem is going to be reflections, not snow.

Avoid multidirectional antennas at all costs.

OK, cool, thanks for that bit of advice, sregener.

I have posted here before awhile back for antenna advice and also have learned alot by reading the posts.

I have not yet purchased an antenna for the fear of mounting on my roof safety concerns, plus the expense of buying antenna, preamp, mast, rotator, hardware and cable, and hoping that it all works.

Yesterday I found an old uhf bowtie antenna in my junk box. I taped it to a
6 foot board and put it on my front porch, and ran a 25 foot RG6 cable from it to my Samsung Sir T151 that I got for cheap at BestBuy. At about the 6 feet high on the porch I actually received 4 digital stations. I had to
rotate the antenna slightly left and right to be able to get them. Also, I could tell that my Samsung was detecting other stations too, but not displaying them.

Could I go with a CM 4221 4 bay, mounted on the porch, and under the porch roof and maybe receive the other stations that the Samsung seemed to be detecting?

I figure with this setup I could avoid purchasing a pre-amp due to the shorter cable run, and avoid the rotator, I could just reach out the door and position it. The actual distance between the antenna and the TV is about 10.

Also would I still need to ground the antenna?

I figure this set up will cost me around 40.00 compared to 225.00 to 250.00
for mounting on the roof.

I live in NW Rochester, MN (Northgate area) and am looking to try OTA for local digital channels connected to a PC HDTV OTA Tuner (want to record HD). I am looking for some advice about equipment and what channels I will actually be able to receive.

According toAntennaweb.org I am in the violet and blue reception areas and can receive the following channels:
blue - vhf KTTC 10 NBC ROCHESTER MN 174° 31.9 10
blue - uhf K60DS 60 TBN ROCHESTER MN 82° 6.7 60
violet - vhf KAAL 6 ABC AUSTIN MN 229° 43.8 6
* violet - uhf KTTC-DT 10.1 NBC ROCHESTER MN 184° 27.0 36
violet - vhf KIMT 3 CBS MASON CITY IA 200° 48.9 3
violet - uhf WXOW 19 ABC LA CROSSE WI 104° 57.2 19
violet - vhf WKBT 8 CBS LA CROSSE WI 84° 56.5 8
violet - uhf WLAX 25 FOX La Crosse WI 104° 57.0 25
violet - uhf WHLA 31 PBS LA CROSSE WI 104° 57.2 31
violet - uhf KXLT 47 FOX ROCHESTER MN 184° 27.0 47

I see only one digital channel available (KTTC-DT10). Yet, according to NAB, I have the following digital channels available in the area:

Rochester, MN-Mason City, IA-Austin, MN 152
KXLT-TV FOX 47.n 46
KAAL ABC 6.n 33
KIMT CBS 3.n 42
KTTC NBC 10.n 36
KSMQ-TV PBS 15.n 20

Questions:
Which of these channels are available and which are not?
With digital channels being my main concern (all on UHF) but still with a desire to use the analog channels as well, which antenna(s) are ideal? Channel Master 4228, 4221 or 3671? Channel Master CM 7777 Preamp? Something completely different? I am prepared for outdoor rooftop mount (wife is too).

Will I have to deal with multi-pathing or is distance from transmitters my biggest issue?

Will a PC HDTV Tuner card be an adequate receiver ?

Is it going to be at all possible to tune in other channels within 100 miles distance like the following:

Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN
14 KMWB WB 23.n 22
KPXM PAX 41.n 40
KARE-TV NBC 11.n 35
KAWB PBS 22.n 28
KAWE PBS 9.n 18
WFTC UPN 29.n 21
KTCA-TV PBS 2.n 34
KTCI-TV PBS 17.n 16
KSTC-TV IND 45.n 44
KMSP-TV FOX 9.n 26
KSTP-TV ABC 5.n 50
WCCO-TV CBS 4.n 32
KCCO-TV CBS 7.n 24
KCCW-TV CBS 12.

La Crosse-Eau Claire, WI 126
WKBT CBS 8.n 41
WQOW-TV ABC 18.n 15
WXOW-TV ABC 19.n 14
WEAU-TV NBC 13.n 39
WHLA-TV PBS 31.n 30

Any help/experience/advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
cpalcott

Originally posted by Angelo M
Could I go with a CM 4221 4 bay, mounted on the porch, and under the porch roof and maybe receive the other stations that the Samsung seemed to be detecting?

Also would I still need to ground the antenna?


A 4-bay antenna, with a screen, with outperform a single bowtie w/o screen by a lot. You would at least get what you get now, and maybe more, with a 4-bay. While it would obviously be better to go above your roofline, sometimes you can get away with doing everything "wrong." Don't get a preamplifier - it won't work if your signals are that strong with a single bowtie.

Any outdoor antenna should be grounded. If it is subject to wind, it is subject to static buildup, and that buildup can create a potential difference great enough to encourage lightning to seek it out.

Originally posted by sregener
The SquareShooter is your best choice, and the unamplified version is best that close to the stations. An amplifier is only good when signals are clean (no ghosts on analogs) but weak (lots of snow on analogs.) At 20 miles, your #1 problem is going to be reflections, not snow.

Avoid multidirectional antennas at all costs.

I just spoke with a guy at Warren Electronics Parts and Supplies (warrenelectronics.com), and he sounded knowlegeable about the antennas. I asked about the SquareShooter and he said that is was a great antenna until you drop below channel 10. He said that it really fell off down there.

The channels I really care about getting in HD are all located under 20 miles from my apartment, but they are numbers 2, 4, and 7.

Does anyone have experience with this antenna on low numbered channels?

Thank you.

Originally posted by Bogey62

The channels I really care about getting in HD are all located under 20 miles from my apartment, but they are numbers 2, 4, and 7.


More than likely, you're listing the analog channel numbers. I don't know of a single market with that many VHF digital signals.

Check out the list at http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp for real channel numbers.

Originally posted by sregener
More than likely, you're listing the analog channel numbers. I don't know of a single market with that many VHF digital signals.

My channels are on:

49.1
17.1
32.1
7.1
39.1
33.1
29.1

All are within 20 miles of my location.

I wonder if it's worth spending $100 on the SquareShooter without the booster, or springing the extra $$$ for the booster?

Thanks.

Originally posted by Bogey62
My channels are on:

49.1
17.1
32.1
7.1
39.1
33.1
29.1

All are within 20 miles of my location.


At 20 miles, I think you'd be fine. I don't recommend a preamplifier (booster) at that range. Just about any properly placed antenna should work okay, unless you're physically blocked.

Originally posted by sregener
At 20 miles, I think you'd be fine. I don't recommend a preamplifier (booster) at that range. Just about any properly placed antenna should work okay, unless you're physically blocked.

OK, thanks again, sregener.

1. Don't laugh
2. Put down any liquids ya'll might be drinkin, k?

We have a 2 story house on the backside of a hill - all the Austin stations are 'over the hill' but only about 10 miles away.

Our house was wired up when it was built 3 years ago, so we have drops already.

Our HDTV monitor is downstairs (Panasonic 32", last year's model from WalMart.)
With it we're using that WalMart STB US Digital HDTV Receiver DB-2010 (under $200)
That's all hooked up to our stereo (not 5.1 but nice, older)

Upstairs we have 2 Sonys ... 1 from 1989, one from 1985.

We got the SS1000 (Square Shooter) and set it on top of Sony 1989. Got an amplified splitter, sent one cable to the wall, the other to the 1989 Sony. Realized that we needed an antenna for Analog Channel 7 (Fox) so I got the bunny ears (vhf only) off the Sony, hooked em inline before the splitter and propped them up against the bookcase.

OK... tvs on analog look really good.

Downstairs I realized that KTBC-DT (FOX 7/56) wasn't coming in. Not surprised, it's transmitting at .8 kw and we're 10.5 miles away from the tower... so I got another splitter, put it between the STB and the second input on the Panasonic.

We watch KTBC in Analog but we pick up up the local ABC, NBC, CBS, WB, PBS in Digital. Somehow we are also picking up a station in Killeen (KAKW-DT, Univision) too - in a different direction from everything else... we're getting everything that antennaweb says we should get if we have a light green rated antenna...

I figure when KTBC-DT gets some power we'll get that just fine too.

'shana

I recently installed a Winegard PR-4400 to improve my OTA reception in Los Angeles. It works great and I get all of the digital channels great except KOCE, the Orange county PBS channel. My receiver is a Hughes HTL-HD. The signal strength on the receiver for KOCE is equal to or greater than all of the rest of the channels. I receive no sound and have a great picture that will freeze and then go to no signal and then the whole process repeats. Prior to installing the Winegard I was using our condo's antenna and was experiencing the same thing.

All LA stations(including KOCE) broadcast from Mt. Wilson about 27 miles away within 36-39 degrees. All the other stations are rock solid with no drop outs.

Any thoughts???

Originally posted by MDRLou
The signal strength on the receiver for KOCE is equal to or greater than all of the rest of the channels. I receive no sound and have a great picture that will freeze and then go to no signal and then the whole process repeats. Prior to installing the Winegard I was using our condo's antenna and was experiencing the same thing.

All LA stations(including KOCE) broadcast from Mt. Wilson about 27 miles away within 36-39 degrees. All the other stations are rock solid with no drop outs.

Any thoughts???

Yes. You might try searching for KOCE in this forum. I did and the first hit after your post was:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=427314&highlight=KOCE

Apparently, they upgraded their encoder and now everyone is having problems.

Originally posted by spinnergy
He told me that the Sasem engineers told him they couldn't reproduce the noise on their production units so its possible he had a bad power supply. He sent his power supply back to them for testing. I'm not too keen on changing out the power supply, so I think I'll exhaust the other avenues of exploration first. I still have to do a test on the analog signal to see if the telltale noise philjsmith67 mentions is there.

For your perusal, I posted two screenshots with the interference I was talking about from the power supply. These are screenshots of channels 2 and 5, taken while using the stock supply. As you can see, I had clear reception of both stations but the RFI was significantly stronger.

Both of these stations are clear and free of this interference using a 5VDC 3A regulated bench supply.

http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/33/C0/SasemOnAirUSBHDTVOwners/1/1f.jpg (http://groups.msn.com/SasemOnAirUSBHDTVOwners/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=31) http://sc.groups.msn.com/tn/33/C0/SasemOnAirUSBHDTVOwners/1/20.jpg (http://groups.msn.com/SasemOnAirUSBHDTVOwners/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=32)

Click on either image to enlarge them.

Thanks Phil, I can safely say, I've seen nothing like that, so perhaps the power supply interference was isolated to a few units, including yours.

I have seen some horizontal noise resembling that pattern along the fringes of Jay Leno's jacket during playback of a recorded stream. It's very small but resembles the pattern you see on a very small scale.

Ironically, it only appears during playback. I did a screen capture and it does not show up on that.

I have seen some horizontal noise resembling that pattern along the fringes of Jay Leno's jacket during playback of a recorded stream. It's very small but resembles the pattern you see on a very small scale.

v2.700 gives you the option to let the player automatically switch between "Bob" and "Weave" deinterlacing algorithms, based on the detected resolution. I noticed that whenever the software elected to use "Weave" I could see alternate-field artifacts.

I took my player off Automatic and set it permanently to Bob. This looks best... Well, in my opinion it does, anyway.


Thanks Phil, I can safely say, I've seen nothing like that ...

That's good that you haven't seen that. However, you mentioned in a prior post on this thread that you still hadn't tested for noise on VHF-Low analog stations. If that's still the case, you would never have seen anything similar to the screen shots I posted because digital signals never show RF interference.

Hey guys im moving into my dorm in a few weeks with with my new 26inch Samsung HDTV (tx-p). I'm getting a Zenith Silver after reading enough of this form to know its the best for indoor use.

My question is this: I'm going to be about 8 miles away from the tower (in DC) with a not so great line of sight, being blocked by about 20 degrees by the rest of my huge dorm building. Is something like a channel master 7775 Preamplifier going to help me get a better signal or is it simply going to be; I either get a signal or its too blocked? (I'm going to mount it outside the window looking at the best signal i can get)

I doubt the amp will help. You'll either get it or you won't due to multipath.
Try seeing if you can get the signal bouncing off of something else if it doesn't work pointed directly at the tower. Your other option would be horizontally stacking two silver sensors to help with the multipath, but I don't know how far into this you'll want to go.

Damn...I just realized I was wrong about the location of my room, looks like my sight is completely blocked by the rest of the building. Guess this begs the question; how well does the signal travel through a cinderblock wall?

Originally posted by Andytrackk
Guess this begs the question; how well does the signal travel through a cinderblock wall?

Poorly. But if you're that close, you might be able to get a reflection off another building. Try "non-intuitive" aiming angles (up/down/etc) and see what you can get.

8 Miles is not that bad. I am about 25 miles from the towers and I get decent signals from my dorm room with a silver sensor w/o amp. The big key is to get plenty of coax so that you can move the antenna around alot. The signals are OK, some breaking up if the conditions are bad--but watchable! For reference my cell phone does not get a signal in my room, but outside it gets all the bars.

I live within the Albany, Georgia DMA. Earlier this year, I upgraded to HD by buying a DirecTV Hughes HTL-HD receiver, and one of the main things I wanted to enjoy with the receiver was two of my local channels that broadcast digitally. I live about 32/35 miles from my local NBC (WALB) and FOX (WFXL) affiliate's analog tower, and though I have always had issues with picking up their analog signal, I figured that living 7.9 miles away from my FOX affiliate's digital tower, and 8.1 miles away from my NBC affiliate's digital tower, but was unable to pick up either one when I plugged in my HTL-HD. I had a Recoton "omni-directional" antenna that picked up the analog channels with varying degrees of success, as I could pick up some stations from 50-70 miles away from me fine, but I couldn't pick up these digital stations 8 miles away from me. These stations are broadcasting on digital channels 12 and 17. I ended up trying to play around with things seeing if I could get a better signal out of the antenna and accidentally plugged in the wrong AC adapter into my antenna preamp and fried my antenna.

I was about to give up on getting in the digital channels when I was told that if I lived only 8 miles from each of my stations I should be able to pick up both of the stations using a Zenith Silver Sensor antenna. This person didn't know that one of my digital stations broadcasting on VHF, however I was quite pleased with the results as I was able to pick up my local FOX affiliate's analog signal great (never been able to get that good of a picture on that station with ANY antenna we've ever had), but no such luck on any of the digital stations as far as getting in a picture, but the signal meter did show a marked improvement on both station's signals.

Earlier this year I wrote a letter asking questions regarding their digital channels to both of the affiliates spoken of above, and didn't receive a reply from either. I then wrote back to my local FOX affiliate and this time I was answered. The General Manager seemed honestly surprised when I stated that I could not pick up his station's digital signal at 7.9 miles away, I then wrote him back informing him of the fact that I didn't have a large antenna, but that I have tried to pick up the signal using both a omni-directional antenna and the Zenith Silver Sensor. I have not received another reply back from him. However, whenever he said that I should receive their signal from 8 miles away, I started playing with the Silver Sensor and managed to pick up a station (WTVM-DT) broadcasting at 1000kw from 52.5 miles away from me sometimes during the Midnight to 10:00 A.M. hours, and I was even able to pick up WFXL-DT (the station 7.9 miles away from me) once or twice during the 10:00 P.M. - 12:00 A.M. hours with constant drop-outs, pixelation, audio drop-outs and whenever I'd turn on my Dolby Digital receiver, the picture would drop out entirely. Since then, I have also been able to pick up (two out of three days a week) WCTV-DT broadcasting 73 miles away from with a solid signal (often more solid than my satellite signal) during the 11:00 P.M. to 3:00 A.M. hours, and WFSU-DT (which antennaweb.org doesn't even list when I enter my address) pretty much EVERY night between the hours of 11:00 P.M. - 6:00 A.M. During the daytime hours of 11:00 A.M. to 7:00 P.M., I get no signal on my signal meter for any of these stations except for WALB-DT and WFXL-DT.


I was told on another message board that WFXL-DT is broadcasting at 177 watts at 302 feet 7.9 miles away from me on channel 12, and WALB-DT is broadcasting at 29000 watts at 249 feet on channel 17 at 8.1 miles away from me. Using the Silver Sensor at 9.5 feet high, I can usually pick up a signal on my meter about halfway between "Bad" and "Normal" 24 hours a day on WFXL-DT, and I can usually pick up WALB-DT's signal halfway between non-existent and the halfway point between "Bad" and "Normal". This signal increases to halfway between "Bad" and "Normal" to 75% of the "Bad" bar being covered on certain nights when I tend to get a better signal out of all the channels, and still no picture. WFXL-DT goes to anywhere between 75% of the "Bad" bar being covered to it creeping in the "Normal" bar during certain days with extreme pixelation.

With the fact that I'd like to have access to NBC HD programming and soon FOX HD programming (my station should get the Splicer anytime), I'm very interested in getting these channels. I live at home with my Mom and Grandmother, and due to having several large multi-directional antennas getting struck by lightning and a tornado that would have ripped off the antenna had it still been there, I am not able to put up another large antenna... however, I may be able to put up a Winegard SquareShooter on our satellite dish at around 10 and a half feet high. I do not believe I have any tall buildings blocking my way, but I do have trees over 30 feet tall that are in front of my view to the towers.

My question is this. Taking into account all the information above (sorry about the long read, I tend to rant), do you think that a SquareShooter will be any help to me, or will I just have to wait until July 31, 2006 to see NBC HD and FOX HD programming?!

What is the terrain like in your area? The 177w station will be tough *anywhere*, but the 29k-watter should be possible. Maybe you're getting more multipath than the receiver can tolerate? Hmmm...

I just travelled through the Atlanta metro recently, and as I expected, WTBS was alive and well on 17. Without checking the FCC DB, I gather from your post that one of your digital signals is also on 17? Out of curiousity, do you know if WTBS was receivable at your location prior to the digital signal? If so, you might be struggling with co-channel interference.

I have a similar issue with WBBM-DT Ch3 Chicago (digital) versus WCIA Ch3 Champaign (analog). Very predictably, if I am having trouble getting WBBM-DT, bets are that if I spin the dial to Ch12 I'll see WILL-TV Urbana/Champaign skipping in. Even though I can't *see* WCIA, if the tropo skip is rolling in from my south, it totally takes out the Chicago station to the north. Unfortunately I only have an indoor antenna; thus, no parasitic element to kill reception of stations 180-degrees in the opposite direction.

With UHF, you might be able to find a "hot spot" for WALB-DT that is also a cold spot for WTBS. Have you tried simply probing around the house with a $4 bowtie on the end of some coax?