Since the very long and winding original thread on the 7.1 was mercifully closed, if anyone hears anything official regarding a trade-in or upgrade program for RDC-7 owners, please post any info here. Re: other issues, please keep your hands to yourself :)

TM

I am interested myself. Do you realize A-Rod's batting average is .111 after Tokyo!!! Thats worth 25 million A-Year.

"Do you realize A-Rod's batting average is .111 after Tokyo!!! Thats worth 25 million A-Year"

Frank, watch out - your post is way off topic and our dear moderators might close this thread too!

The latest I have heard about the trade-in is that only original owners will qualify so that if you've bought it used and are interested in trading-in your unit you are out of luck.

R

Interesting. Well, I bought mine straight up from a solid dealer, so...

As for A-Rod, somehow I think he'll come around :)

TM

We still don't know if a trade-in program will also be offered to the owners of the Onkyo 989 and Integra 9.1 receivers. Since the 989 and 9.1 receivers were just as future-proof as the RDC-7 I think that Onkyo should offer a trade-in program to all flagship owners.

I'm also very interested in how much the trade-in will cost. Maybe it will be free?

R

check out this link http://www.cinenow.com/us/reportage.php/sid,840/ for some cool photos of the new Integra receiver and universal player.

R

Nice find Raz, thanks.

TM

I just came back from Montreal and the Festival Son & Image.
Onkyo had a big exhibit with tons of gear, and had the lid off a few pieces, like in the previous photos. Very nice looking under the hood !


What kind of trade-in deals are you guys possibly hoping for ?
70% ? 60% ? 50% ? ... ?
In the end, will it be a "deal" ? Will everyone be happy ?
Let's face it, used gear is typically worth 50%-60% of MSRP max, according to the "bible" of used pricing -> Audiogon ads.

I owned an Onkyo TX-DS989 and once did the $50 upgrade for DPL-2.
But I have been a long-time EAD owner too and have gone through many models over the years.
Sure I could have kept 1 unit and upgraded it continuously over the years.
But there is an upgrade cost, versus selling what you have, and buying something already newer/upgraded. Often, this comes out cheaper in the long-run.

- Andy

Andy, the issue is that if every RDC7 owner runs to sell their RDC7's at the same time, the used market price will drop rapidly (or, inventory will sit unsold, gathering moss). SO at the margin, yes, for one RDC7 owner, it may be possible to do better financially by selling your RDC7 used and buying a 7.1 new (as opposed to an 'official' trade-in). But for *all* RDC7 owners, that is almost certainly not the case as the 'mass' selling would have a negative effect on prices as I mentioned.

Also, particularly if, as we hope, the trade-in is made at a price such that IR is subsidizing current owners by reducing its margins on the new product(what Lexicon does with its trade-ins), this would make a trade-in an even better route.

There is also the hassle factor to consider...selling a piece of equipment on audiogon or ebay...and you have a relationship on your hands. Trade it in to IR, and you're done. And if they use their dealer network to facilitate the trades (again, as does Lexicon), then you don't have to worry about shipping either.

There was a thread on another site where our collective temperatures were taken, not sure if you saw it. People seemed to settle on around $2000 (plus your RDC7) to purchase a 7.1 as functional as a 7 (in other words, with some, but not all, modules included for the $2000). Additional modules would be purchased at MSRP (or whatever 'normal' discount you could negotiate with your dealer).

We'll see, and fingers are still very much crossed. Hopefully if and when an announcement is made we'll hear about it here.

TM

Right now used RDC-7's go for $2000. Brand new units can be found for $2500. I sold mine a few weeks ago for $2200. New RDC-7.1's will probably be available for 20% off, that's $3200 for a base unit. If you sell your RDC-7 for $2200 then you'd only have to spend $1000 out of your pocket for a base-unit.

R

Anthony:
Yes, but not every owner will sell ASAP, and I suspect that number will be very very small as the new features are mostly likey not "must have" for a large majority of owners . Only a few of us online addicts are on top of the latest breaking news, and demand the latest and greatest features, and want to pay as little as possible. The fact that you may see a handful for sale at Audiogon is a pinhead compared to total units sold.

As you are "in the know", you should hedge your bets and sell now before the word gets out which may reduce the value of your uinit. Yes ? Currently there are none listed at Audiogon.

Also, a brand-new unit is always worth more than an upgraded older unit, even if the manufacturer says they are 100% identical. That's just the mentality out there at the buy & sell sites. But in the IR case, it will require a unit swap, not internal board upgrades, so you will have a brand new full-value unit.

Selling is always a hassle. So by rights, not having to dispose of your old unit yourself is worth something to you, so you should expect an even lower trade-in value from IR. Yes ?

Personally, I think a 50% trade-in value is fair ... to both IR, their dealers, and the end-users. Let us not forget there are dealers involved who also need to be compensated, if an upgrade path is offered to end-users. To think a dealer should be shut-out of upgrade profits, however small, is unrealistic.

Who knows what internal political forces are at play and how they view loyal customers versus maximizing profit. I guess we'll see what happens soon enough :)

- Andy

So Razvanel, what did you get to replace your RDC-7?

I hope the upgrade offer is decent. You have to factor in the selling dealer. Will you be able to get the unit for less than msrp in addition to the trade-in value? Integra Research does not authorize online sales so you will be at the mercy of your nearest dealer. With the press the RDC-7.1 is getting I doubt discounts will be that great for a while.

One other great aspect of the RDC-7.1 is it looks exactly like the RDC-7. When I do upgrade the wife will be clueless;)

Sorry, slightly off topic but didn't want to start a new thread. Is there rack mount capability with the RDC-7 / RDC-7.1? Or would I have to buy a Middle Atlantic conversion shelf?

When is this RDC-7.1 suppose to be available?

Originally posted by DreamCatcher
When is this RDC-7.1 suppose to be available?

They are now saying late June.

Ugh. Probably delayed while they figure out the trade in :)

TM

Originally posted by Carlton Bale
Is there rack mount capability with the RDC-7 / RDC-7.1? Or would I have to buy a Middle Atlantic conversion shelf?

Wow, it's not often that a manufacturer is more responsive than AVS Forum members. Within 24 hours, I received an e-mail from IR stating that there is no rack mount capability for IR products so a shelf would be required. This surprises me since their products are designed with integration and custom installers in mind.

"So Razvanel, what did you get to replace your RDC-7?"

Nothing. I'm waiting for the RDC-7.1 to come out. If the RDC-7.1 has the same bass management problems as the RDC-7 - totally unacceptable for such an expensive processor - then I'll buy a Lexicon or a Krell.

"I hope the upgrade offer is decent."

It could be free.

"Integra Research does not authorize online sales so you will be at the mercy of your nearest dealer."

Not really. I bought the RDC-7 from an out of state dealer at a great discount and no tax.

"With the press the RDC-7.1 is getting I doubt discounts will be that great for a while."

You're wrong about that. I called a few IR dealers and they are already offering discounts.

"One other great aspect of the RDC-7.1 is it looks exactly like the RDC-7."

Maybe it won't look exactly like the RDC-7 after all. gspr.com still doesn't have the new photos of the RDC-7.1.

R

Thanks R, you answered all my questions. I don't know how you can go that long without a processor, however. I believe the photos of the 7.1 at the CES in Vegas show the front to be a clone of the 7

This RDC-7.1 sounds better and better.

Anyone know if they will support HDMI v2.0 when it comes out?

Thanks,
Harlan

"Thanks R, you answered all my questions."

Frank, my pleasure!

"I don't know how you can go that long without a processor."

It's not that hard! In fact life is more relaxed without a processor.

"I believe the photos of the 7.1 at the CES in Vegas show the front to be a clone of the 7"

That's true but IR might change the front. One of the reasons some RDC-7 owners felt entitled to a trade-in was that the new RDC-7.1 looked the same as the RDC-7. At CES the new Onkyo and Integra flagship receivers looked different from the Onkyo 989 and Integra 9.1 receivers and yet the RDC-7.1 looked the same as the RDC-7... You have probably noticed that, of all Onkyo flagship owners, the most vocal in asking for a trade-in were the RDC-7 owners.

R

Like Raz, I have found >1 dealer willing to sell the 7.1 at below MSRP.

TM

PS - just got an update (of sorts) from IR that they're still working on it, finalizing details, will make word available on their site, etc. The bad news is that actual shipping could still be "a few month" out though obviously they could surprise us.

According to the latest Sound & Vision magazine the new Onkyo TX-NR1000 receiver will sell for $4500 ( that's $500 more than it was previously announced) while a fully loaded Integra DTR-10.5 receiver will cost $4600 ( $3500 for the base unit). There's no mention of the RDC-7.1 in the magazine.

R

Originally posted by Harlan
Anyone know if they will support HDMI v2.0 when it comes out?


The initial version of the HDMI module is reported to be v1.0. Integra Research said that they are working on a HDMI v2.0 module with a fall release date. Given the delay of the RDC-7.1 to "late June," I would not expect to see the newer HDMI module before the end of the year.

Brian

I called IR today and was told that the RDC-7.1 will be available mid-July.

R

Originally posted by Razvanel
I called IR today and was told that the RDC-7.1 will be available mid-July.

Thanks for keeping us updated on the release date!

Slipping slipping....ah well, nature of the beast I guess.

TM

I went to the Bangkok Hi-Fi 2004 show yesterday and they had a 7.1 on static display.

My mate snapped a couple of pics with his phone camera. I'll post them once he emails them to me.

My only comments from this brief look are that it is huge (bigger than the Yamaha Z9), and the case looks beautiful and is clearly designed for easy access to the innards for adding cards.

I wasn't able to pick up any additional info other than it will be on sale here in "two months".

"My mate snapped a couple of pics with his phone camera. I'll post them once he emails them to me."

Thanks, can't wait to see them!

R

Originally posted by Peter M
I went to the Bangkok Hi-Fi 2004 show yesterday and they had a 7.1 on static display.

My mate snapped a couple of pics with his phone camera. I'll post them once he emails them to me.



Please!

He seems to be having trouble getting the photos off his phone ... and I don't want to pressure him as he is doing it as a favour.

I really wish I'd had my 4Mp digital camera with me ... damn !!!

If I get the photos I will post them immediately.

Does it look like this or it is redesigned?

http://www.audioholics.com/ces/ces2004/images/integra_research_rack.jpg

From memory it still looks very similar to that ... but it's actually not the front photo I really wanted to post ... but the rear one showing the back panel fully loaded with cards.

Just got off the phone with IR. The RDC-7.1 will now be available in fall ( 2004???). I'm 99% sure I will get the Anthem D1 instead.

R

At the rate the delays are going, we might be lucky to see it by the January 2005 CES. ;) :D Did you inquire about the reason for the delays?

Brian

Originally posted by bkzoller
At the rate the delays are going, we might be lucky to see it by the January 2005 CES. ;) :D Did you inquire about the reason for the delays?

Brian

Yes, I asked, they didn't know. I've dealt with IR many times, most of the time the people who answer the phone don't know much.

R

!@#$%^& :mad:

Well I hope you're wrong ... I was definitely told "two months".

This is bad news. At least my RDC-7 will be current for a little while longer

Originally posted by Peter M
!@#$%^& :mad:

Well I hope you're wrong ... I was definitely told "two months".

I'm not surprised at all that they told you that it will be available in 2 months and that they told me this fall. A few months ago I called IR to ask if the RDC-7 warranty was transferable or not: twice I was told that it was and twice that it wasn't. They probably don't know what's going on.

R

I think the D1 is definitely going to "scoop" the next round of (high end) DPL IIx pre/pros. Hopefully it lives up to the rep of the AVM-20. :)

Called IR again, different CSR, this is the info I got:

1. The 7.1 will be available sometime this summer.

2. There will NOT be a trade-in program offered to the owners of the RDC-7.

3. The Integra DTC-9.4 will not be upgraded to DPLIIx and they have no info on a replacement model.

If in the US you too can call them at 1-800-225-1946.

R

I stopped by an IR dealer today and he told me that his rep told him that the RDC-7.1 will be out either in December 2004 or in January 2005. According to the rep, IR has software problems with the new unit.

R

Boo hiss. I'll try them too and see what I can learn.

TM

Razvanel,

You posted earlier about bass management problems with your RDC7.
Do you own the earlier RDC7 with the fixed 80Hz crossover or the newer one with user selectable ranging from 40 to 120Hz?

You also mentioned that you got it from an out of state dealer for a great deal. I will PM you about this. Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by UD180
Razvanel,

You posted earlier about bass management problems with your RDC7.
Do you own the earlier RDC7 with the fixed 80Hz crossover or the newer one with user selectable ranging from 40 to 120Hz?

You also mentioned that you got it from an out of state dealer for a great deal. I will PM you about this. Thanks in advance.

I sold my RDC7 a few months ago. The unit had the 80Hz fixed crossover but I later upgraded it to the 40-120Hz selectable crossover. In both cases the bass management sucked. The RDC7 has double-bass and compresses the sound when the subwoofer setting is set to "on". My unit wasn't defective as I checked several others and they all behaved in the same way. If you can live with its compressed sound go for it - it's very reliable, easy to use, and looks good.

R

Well, I just heard back from my primary contact at IR. He confirmed a push back to fall/late fall which he admitted could be early winter (i.e. dec/jan). As far as the trade-in, he indicated that he thought it *was* still on track, that it would likely be toward an RDC-7 equivalent 7.1 (in terms of i/o, etc), and that details would follow. Reading between the lines, my guess is that b/c the ship date of the 7.1 has slipped, they're in no rush to finalize details of any trade-in.

Alot can and will happen b/t now and Dec/Jan, particularly new product announcements from other mfrs at the show in September. I think that since the 7.1 will ship after that time that IR probably wants to keep its powder dry re: specifics.

TM

TM,

I heard the same via email from IR's customer service manager.

I stopped by the Integra booth at CEDIA. They had the IR DVD player, amp, and RDC7.1 pre/pro on display. I asked them when they would all ship and was told that the amp has been ready for some time and will be released with the pre/pro, which should be ready to to ship in October. The rep did state that it was announced at CES and that they had missed their date several times, so he said the official word was 4th quarter 2004 just to be safe. The DVD player is a different story. They're having delays because they want their internal scaler to convert incoming HDMI content to higher resolutions before going to the HDMI output.

They also answered my previous questions about rack mounting. All Integra / Integra Research products have optional rack ears that attach to the side of the chassis.

I didn't think to ask about trade-in; it'd been so long since I looked at this thread I forgot about that question.

Wow, ready in October! I was hearing late this year/early next year rumors. Hope this turns out to be true, as this has lots of possiblilities.

Carlton,

Did you manage to get a demo of how those new models sounded? On the HDMI upscaling, I remember some discussion about the RDC-7.1 upscaling S-video and composite before sending the video signal to the HDMI output. That could delay the HDMI expansion board, but I don't see why it would delay releasing the rest of the boards or the main unit.

Brian

Unfortunately, they didn't have any of the new IR products in the listening room. Even if they did, I'm not sure that it would have been a very good sound demonstration. The speakers were hidden in the walls and I couldn't tell if they were of high quality or not. The volume level was set fairly low when I walked into the room and they were playing Blue Man Group in DTS, not an ideal demo. No one came in to do an official presentation so after sitting there for a couple of minutes, I moved on. If the RDC-7.1 does upscale interlaced video to the HDMI output, that would make it an even more desirable piece. I hope it turns out that that is the case. I didn't hear any mention of that feature but I didn't ask either.

I can't wait to see if Integra Research will offer a trade-in program or not. A few months ago it looked as if they would.

R

I am an Integra Research dealer and got a "tour" of products from an Integra employee. I never heard of a trade-in program and I am very sure they would have mentioned it. As far as the delivery time, I was told November.
Same goes for the Integra receiver as I guess the boards are interchangeable between both units. The obvious question was "what is the difference in the front end" and the Integra tour guide did not know for sure.
If they would have shipped in June as promised they would have mopped-up over the last several months. I am personally waiting for this one in my system to see if it cuts it sonically because it certainly does technically.:)

Carlton, it was nice to meet you as well in Indy... Small world.:)

Hey Steve, great to meet you as well. It's funny to talk to someone in person for 10 minutes before you figure out that you've known them via phone conversations for a couple of years! I hope the RDC-7.1 ship date doesn't slip past November and I look forward to hearing your opinion regarding sonic performance. If it lives up to expectations, it will be a perfect companion to the Gemstone Audio 7-channel amp I plan to purchase.

Steve,

Wow; is there any decent product that you are NOT a dealer of :D.
As far as sonics, what was your opinion of the previous RDC 7 in that regard, compared to comparably priced competition like B&K, Krell, Anthem, Bryston, Halo, etc?

Re: a trade in:

1) The primary contact person on the inside of IR who was telling us that a trade in seemed in the cards is no longer there. May or may not have any bearing on whether or not there will be a trade in.

2) The fact that the person at the show didn't mention a trade in is meaningless. Many of these marketing bots are shockingly ignorant - as you said he couldn't tell you the difference b/t the Integra receiver and the IR pre/pro. Presumably there must be some difference.

In any case, it looks like despite the delays IR may still release the first pre/pro with HDMI switching. I agree that a composite/S/component to HDMI upconversion would be wonderful (if high quality).

TM

The Integra and onkyo players are shipping, so one would expect that the RDV-1.1 wouldn't be far behind unless they've decided to do something different with it. The Integra player will deinterlace and scale s-video and composite inputs, and the RDV-1.1 was to add component to this and HDMI switching for an HDMI passtrough input, if memory serves. If they want to scale the HDMI input, that would require a redesign of the software at least. If they want to deinterlace and scale a 1080i HDMI input, they'll need new hardware too, since the SIL 504 deinterlacing chip only works with 480i material.

I hope that the shipping RDC-7.1 employs Silicon Image's new multichannel HDMI chip in the HDMI switching module, since that chip is now shipping in some products, such as the Denon DVD 3910.

Does anyone know who to talk to at IR, not that Lincoln has moved on?

Has anybody seen any pictures of the the back of the RDC-7.1? I have seen the DTR-10.5 and the TX-NR1000 backs and I would imagined the cards are the same, but I am curious to see the dual 7.1 Multi-Channel Preouts and the other goodies.

I haven't seen pictures, but have seen outline drawings that were given out by IR at CES to another AVS member. They are too big to post here, though. The pic of the front which used to be up on IR's Public Relations Co's website was pulled a month or two after it was posted, and still is not back up.

"Does anyone know who to talk to at IR, not that Lincoln has moved on?"

Well, call Integra Research and ask to speak to the new customer service manager.

R

Well, I guess that's an idea. I took pictures of the back of the RDC-7.1 at CES, but not good ones, since the unit was in use and in a rack with lotsa cables hanging off the back. Essentially, it looks like the back of the Onkyo and Integra receivers with BNCs where the speaker binding posts are on the receivers.

Originally posted by krassyg
Has anybody seen any pictures of the the back of the RDC-7.1? I have seen the DTR-10.5 and the TX-NR1000 backs and I would imagined the cards are the same, but I am curious to see the dual 7.1 Multi-Channel Preouts and the other goodies.

I have in my possession the official sales literature for all three of the IR products. If only I had a scanner. . . I can give you a fairly detalied description through. The cards look exactly the same as the back of the other recievers. There are 8 RCA outputs on the back bottom left of the unit, 8 balanced XLR outputs across the middle, 8 more RCA outputs near the right edge, and the power connector on the far bottom right. There are 11 card bays all the way across the back (starting at the left side) and IR, serial, and 12v trigger connectors on the far right side. I'll see if I can get something scanned if anyone is still interested.

Originally posted by Enigma
Steve,

Wow; is there any decent product that you are NOT a dealer of :D.
As far as sonics, what was your opinion of the previous RDC 7 in that regard, compared to comparably priced competition like B&K, Krell, Anthem, Bryston, Halo, etc?

I don't have all the lines but close.:D One of the benefits of living in MN is that it is hard for other dealers to block you out especially if you buy more than them. :) A way NOT to be biased I guess.... The best part of all is to be able to do an A-B-C-D-E-F side-by-side comparison. Would anybody be interested in a processor shootout in MN??????????

One of the tricks of keeping lines is not to giving comparisons in forums other than being general. As you might guess, I have my opinions... ;) What makes sense for one person may not be the correct selection for the other but after talking to lots and lots of people signatures exist that many agree with. I told the truth a while back about a line (since then edited) and was terminated when the owner of the company read my post. It took 2 hours before I was terminated. :eek: It was a terrible product (that of course has gotten some great reviews).

Originally posted by SteveH
I told the truth a while back about a line (since then edited) and was terminated when the owner of the company read my post. It took 2 hours before I was terminated. :eek: It was a terrible product (that of course has gotten some great reviews).

I guess that's why you don't work for a magazine!

Originally posted by SteveH
I don't have all the lines but close.:D One of the benefits of living in MN is that it is hard for other dealers to block you out especially if you buy more than them. :) A way NOT to be biased I guess.... The best part of all is to be able to do an A-B-C-D-E-F side-by-side comparison. Would anybody be interested in a processor shootout in MN??????????



Steve,

I think EVERYONE would be interested in that. Maybe you could let a panel make all the comments and stay on the sidelines. I understand the "no negative comments if you want to be our dealer" logic.

Let me try to re-phrase my original question, though. I've read one poster's comparison of the Integra RDC 7 with the Anthem D1 (he was former owner of RDC 7, new owner of D1); his early impression was that the Anthem was more forward and the IR more "warm"; he also felt that the IR was better with 2 channel and the D1 better with HT; though not by a huge margin on either count. He did feel that the difference between the "warm" or "laid back" IR had a much different sound than the more forward or "in your face" D1. Do you agree with this generally, leaving aside any value judgements about which is better?

Originally posted by Enigma
Steve,

I think EVERYONE would be interested in that. Maybe you could let a panel make all the comments and stay on the sidelines. I understand the "no negative comments if you want to be our dealer" logic.

Let me try to re-phrase my original question, though. I've read one poster's comparison of the Integra RDC 7 with the Anthem D1 (he was former owner of RDC 7, new owner of D1); his early impression was that the Anthem was more forward and the IR more "warm"; he also felt that the IR was better with 2 channel and the D1 better with HT; though not by a huge margin on either count. He did feel that the difference between the "warm" or "laid back" IR had a much different sound than the more forward or "in your face" D1. Do you agree with this generally, leaving aside any value judgements about which is better?

You're probably talking about me... My comments on this forum described the first D1 unit that I got and which was defective. Anthem promptly replaced it. The replacement unit sounds better. The D1 is indeed more forward, has a clearer midrange and a tighter bass than the RDC-7. These is how I'd rate the two processors on a scale from 1 to 10, 10 being highest:

2-channel:
D1: 9
RDC-7: 4

HT:
D1: 8
RDC-7: 7

2.0 and 5.1 analog ( DVDA, SACD)
D1: 8
RDC-7: 9

reliability:
D1: 7
RDC-7: 10

customer service/support:
D1: 10
RDC-7: 1

The low grades for RDC-7's stereo and HT performance are due to its compressing the sound, especially the midrange. Anthem's customer service is outstanding, Integra's is horrible.

R

Raz,

Thanks, very perceptive of you :D. I was quite interested in the RDC 7.1 when it was announced, but with all these delays I'd kind of lost interest. As it appears it *might* be on the horizon again, I was trying to get a feel for how these two compared. The RDC 7.1 has some great connectivity points in its favor (not just 1394 and HDMI, but the number of digital inputs, the possibility of 2 separate 6 channel inputs, etc); with Anthem introducing the mod later this year adding 1394, HDMI, and video transoding the feature set is closer, but still favors the IR.

Of course, the RDC 7.1 could sound different than the RDC 7, but that remains to be seen (I believe it does have different DAC's).

Processing power would seem to favor the D1, with its dual DSP's; but I don't know how the one in the IR equates to the ones in the D1.

The major feature that both are missing is room correction; and I had read a 'rumor' that Anthem was looking into adding that farther down the road on the D1 as well, but nothing from Anthem themselves.

I really like Anthem's support grade; I would have expected that, based on the posts I've seen from owners of all Anthem products.

It will probably be sometime next year before I am ready to upgrade, so hopefully some of this will be sorted out (and maybe Steve can pull off the pre/pro shootout by then :D).

Thanks for the evaluation.

Originally posted by Carlton Bale
I have in my possession the official sales literature for all three of the IR products. If only I had a scanner. . . I can give you a fairly detalied description through. The cards look exactly the same as the back of the other recievers. There are 8 RCA outputs on the back bottom left of the unit, 8 balanced XLR outputs across the middle, 8 more RCA outputs near the right edge, and the power connector on the far bottom right. There are 11 card bays all the way across the back (starting at the left side) and IR, serial, and 12v trigger connectors on the far right side. I'll see if I can get something scanned if anyone is still interested.


I'm definitely interested. If you want, mail them to me and I'll scan and post them :) Official sales literature is a good sign I think...maybe it'll ship in the not too distant future. One question Carlton - do they specify what the DVI or HDMI switching capability is in terms of pure i/o? Given all the time that's passed since the 7.1 was announced, I was hoping they'd do more than 2x1 (which I think is what they announced was back at CES...)



TM

Originally posted by Enigma
Steve,

I think EVERYONE would be interested in that. Maybe you could let a panel make all the comments and stay on the sidelines. I understand the "no negative comments if you want to be our dealer" logic.

Let me try to re-phrase my original question, though. I've read one poster's comparison of the Integra RDC 7 with the Anthem D1 (he was former owner of RDC 7, new owner of D1); his early impression was that the Anthem was more forward and the IR more "warm"; he also felt that the IR was better with 2 channel and the D1 better with HT; though not by a huge margin on either count. He did feel that the difference between the "warm" or "laid back" IR had a much different sound than the more forward or "in your face" D1. Do you agree with this generally, leaving aside any value judgements about which is better?

If I was in the marketing dept at Anthem I'd make sure my AVM30 and D1 sounded different. Yes, the D1 is slightly forward and clearer. I wouldn't say the 7.1 is "warm" though. It is neutral. I found the analog bypass of the Integra to not as good as even a B&K. Assuming they have "digital direct" type features on the IR unit, this will be a plus as the only reason why analog sounds better is because of the thousands of miles of DSP's that are need to go though even on large/stereo. Hence, I would not be worried about the analog bypass section as much.
I am convinced that even the D1 and the AVM30 will have its own fans and could rate the 30 over the D1 is depending on what is more sonically pleasing. Not many would have the courage to say this as the $5K+ unit must sound better than the $2800 unit correct??;)
All of these have good enough engineering in them to make them someones favorite. Many times things sound "different" not better. Unfortunately, I have not done a side-by-side demo with the D1 and the Integra. I'd like to do a Shootout with a couple others that I have not heard side-by-side before. I am sure the results will prove interesting to many.
That being said. I have the Integra on my short list for my next processor upgrade.:) If it sounds as good as its features, we are in great shape for years to come.

If you have a shootout, I would like to show up with my D1.
NETHOMAS

"the feature set is closer, but still favors the IR."

I agree. Feature wise:

RDC-7.1: 10
D1: 8

"I wouldn't say the 7.1 is "warm" though. It is neutral. I found the analog bypass of the Integra to not as good as even a B&K"

The RDC-7 did sound warm to me. Not as warm as a B&K but still warm. And I thought that its analog bypass was excellent, better than D1's.

A few months ago I talked to a guy who was a beta tester for the RDC-7.1. According to him the RDC-7.1 sounds better than the RDC-7 ( he agreed with me that the RDC-7 compresses the midrange).

A big plus for the Integra piece is its reliability. I never had a single problem with the RDC-7 and I expect the RDC-7.1 to be as reliable as the RDC-7.

R

The RDC-7 also has dual processors, so that is a wash. Razvanel complains about the so-called compressed sound of the RDC-7, but I and others disagree completely. I agree that customer service has been less than stellar. The RDC-7.1 is a better thought out product, with more features than most, but we'll see about the sound. I especially want great DVD-Audio and SACD playback, with bass managment and speaker distance settings for both. Otherwise, I may look elsewhere.

The RDC 7 has two main DSP's? As I understand it the Anthem D1 uses two processors identical to the one in the AVM30; so its got some room for future code additions. Didn't IR have to remove some functionality in order to add THX Ultra 2 processing? If so, that would seem to indicate that they are running out of room; and that's without PLIIx.

I think the key is total processing power, not how many. And I don't know enough about the RDC 7.1 to know how it compares. But its obvious that the D1 has considerable headroom, to add, say, room correction (as an example), since it has two of the processors that already run PLIIx, etc in the AVM30.

I'll have to go look at the press release again, and see if there's more detail.

EDIT: The RDC 7.1 press release does say "dual 32 bit processors"; but doesn't say what kind. The Anthem D1 says "dual 150 mip" processors, Motorola 56367.

" The RDC-7.1 is a better thought out product, with more features than most, but we'll see about the sound."

Feature wise the RDC-7.1 is the clear winner. When it comes to sound I simply don't like the way the RDC-7 sounds. The ideal processor for me would be one that sounds like the D1 and has the features of the RDC-7.1.

R

And costs less than a Yugo :)

TM

Originally posted by anthonymoody
And costs less than a Yugo :)

TM

Cost wise you'll probably be able to get the RDC-7.1 for 15 - 20% off MSRP. My favorite Eastern European car was the Trabant, it's a shame they didn't sell it in the US.

R

I hear you Raz. One of the (many) reasons I enjoy a trip abroad is to see the many vehicles (and engines) we don't have the opportunity to purchase over here...

TM

Is the analog bypass on the B&K Reference 50 available for all 6 channels or is it only available for 2 channels.? B&K owner manual is not clear on this in fact the AVM 20 manual also is confusing on that point.

How you would quote B&K analog bypass audio quality compared with the AVM 20 or AVM 30?

Thanks

Benoit

Originally posted by Tolstoi
Is the analog bypass on the B&K Reference 50 available for all 6 channels or is it only available for 2 channels.? B&K owner manual is not clear on this in fact the AVM 20 manual also is confusing on that point.

How you would quote B&K analog bypass audio quality compared with the AVM 20 or AVM 30?

Thanks

Benoit

I have not done an A-B comparison between the analog bypass so I cannot comment. I have heard peoples impressions but since I have not done the work personally, it is strictly hearsay. As far as the analog bypass. The REF50 and 50s2 have a 6 channel bypass (for 5.1).

Back to the RDC-7 and possible RDC-7.1 trade-in; A customer service guy at Integra Research told me today over the phone that they are expecting the new products to ship in late October. While there was erlier talk of a trade-in, he did not know the current status of that possibility, but got my email adress so he could get back to me in a couple of days, along with whatever else he learned and could pass along.

Since I cannot perform an evaluation of the Reference 50. They don't have any resellers in Montreal in fact nowhere in Canada. This is crazy considering they are reselling in a few asian contries.

Very much appreciate the information here - as a current RDC-7 owner I am particularly interested in the RDC- 7.1 and whether they will offer the trade in program.
My recent email exchange with their customer support indicated a fall shipping date and no word on an exchange program - that doesn't sound so good.
Any sales literature would be helpful as a new owner of an upconverting DVD player - I am interested in HDMI video switching and especially HDMI / firewire SACD / DVD A one cable audio options.

Do you guys think that the RDC-7.1 will be compatible with the Yamaha and Pioneer IEEE-1394 dvd players? I don't feel like spending the money for the Onkyo($2000) if I can get the Yamaha for $799 or the Pioneer off eBay for $300. I just need it for the audio, I have a media server.

I hear you Raz, and don't disagree. That said, this has been a frustrating experience overall to say the least. We went down that path and after pulling teeth we got info that at the very least was premature if not outright incorrect. My money is currently on "no trade in" despite what Lincoln told so many of us months ago.

Also,IMO IR should NOT have announced the 7.1 in January to ship in April. Maybe, and I mean maybe, they held it up to do further testing of DVI and/or HDMI switching since several devices seem to have handshake issues. Maybe they held it up while some of that is (hopefully) getting resolved. Beyond that, this enormous shipping delay can most likely be explained by IR's desire to freeze the market at the price point. Other than the D1 it looks like they did :)

TM

Does anybody know if the new version of Nettune can play back WMA lossless? I have a media server and I need to transfer about 1000 Cd's in either WMA lossless or wave files, if the RDC-7.1 cannot read WMA lossless.

The guy from Integra Research did not tell me that the trade-in policy had been dropped, but just that he hadn't heard anything about it following the delay in producing the products. We'll see.

Raz,

:) I hear you.

I just put in an email through their web interface. I'll see what comes of that, then I'll call.

TM

Well, IR got back to me as follows:

"The new Integra Research models are in their final stages of testing and pre-production. They should be shipping in the beginning of November, according to the information that we have received from Japan. In regards to the upgrade/trade in question, we have received no word from Japan. The minute we receive any information, we post it on www.Integraresearch.com."


Early November is not too far off if the above is true. That said, what they said about the trade in does not bode well. Maybe they're hedging. We'll see I guess....

TM

I also emailed IR again the other dayandthe answer came back from Onkyo support. Expect an update within 30 days on the IR website: the rdc-7.1 will be shipping in November ; and they didn'tknow about a trade in program but when word comes from japan it will be posted on the site.

I don't get a warm & fuzzy feeling about a trade but who knows.

Sue!

Seriously though, I will do what I said I'd do way back when this all started: never buy another IR piece ever again, and do everything in my power - however large or small - to influence the purchasing decisions of others away from IR. Then I'll go buy another mfrs pre/pro....

TM

I appreciate that IR customer support hasn't been the greatest strange company that way - but I really like the RDC-7 and it's functionality / reliability and was very happy with the the last upgrade. In fact it was out of my system for several months due to a problem created by another component and when I put it back last night i was in heaven listening to redbook Cd's using the RDC-7 direct mode.

I intend to pursue a trade-in as far as I can. If they don't offer the program trade then i will have a lot of other options - including keeping the RDC-7,trading it to a dealer, selling it on EBay or Agon or buying another mfr's pre-pro. This will also give me time to evaluate whether the RDC-7.1 is a big step on the RDC-7. I'm fine with that.

I have a dvd player with firewire / HDMI / DVI connections so my main reason for upgrading the pre-pro is firewire - SACD / DVDA . Minor reason is HDMI video switching. Not sure how to evaluate reason is DPL2X - I haven't heard it yet so while I hear it's a worthwhile improvement over DPL2 I'm not there yet.

Know this is a little late in the game, but I emailed Onkyo a few days ago and got this in response:

"Thank You for contacting Onkyo USA Product Support.

The RDA, RDC and RDV 7.1's will be available in the first two weeks of December."

Sorry guys, looks like these things got pushed back a little further.

Jared

Originally posted by Gaara
Know this is a little late in the game, but I emailed Onkyo a few days ago and got this in response:

"Thank You for contacting Onkyo USA Product Support.

The RDA, RDC and RDV 7.1's will be available in the first two weeks of December."

Sorry guys, looks like these things got pushed back a little further.

Jared

7 months late but it wil have every important feature. Hopefully it won't slip any further. I am anxious to give it a test.
Steve

Well Onkyo have officially anounced all three new IR prodicts for November 25th in Japan so the US release wont be far behind. See the thread I started for the link.

Interesting. I wonder if these latest delays were so that they could include the latest HDMI chipset.

TM

Any new news??? ;) I've been holding off buying a receiver so that I can possibly purchase one of these *future proof* receivers. Any updates on price (pm me)

The new card-based Integra 10.5 receiver is now on the Integra website. For more info go to

http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DTR-10.5&class=Receiver&p=s

R

And the RDC-7.1 is now on the IR website: www.integraresearch.com

R

Nice spot Raz. Wow they redid their entire website (about time). Now all we need is a definitive answer about the trade-in ;)

TM

The site's still not complete, though. There are several tabs which say "under construction". And no new pics except the small one on the main page. At least its a start.

It doesnt seem to mention optional modules like the Japanese site, do you think the USA release of the RDC-7.1 is going to be fixed spec rather than build to order?

Originally posted by Krobar
It doesnt seem to mention optional modules like the Japanese site, do you think the USA release of the RDC-7.1 is going to be fixed spec rather than build to order?

This is what the IR website says about the RDC-7.1: "the unique card-based modular design lets you choose the inputs and outputs for your particular needs".

R

It is kind of odd that all of the other new products (DVD players and receivers from Integra Research, Integra and Onkyo) are advertised as having Wolfson DACs that convert both PCM and DSD natively, whereas the RDC-7.1 is said to have "Linear PCM 192kHz/24-Bit DACs." I wonder whether they have jetisoned the WM8719s for this, their flagship product. Also, now no mention can be found on the Wolfson site of the WM8719 (the DAC I saw and photographed in the Onkyo and Intgra DVD players at CES 2004), and the signal to noise ratio listed for the new DVD players (118 dB) is better than the MW8719 could possibly muster.

That sounds like some figure possible with TI PCM1792/1794 or DSD1792/1794... 118db!! I'd be glad if RDC-7.1 has that TI/BB top-end DAC.

Originally posted by Steve Goff
It is kind of odd that all of the other new products (DVD players and receivers from Integra Research, Integra and Onkyo) are advertised as having Wolfson DACs that convert both PCM and DSD natively, whereas the RDC-7.1 is said to have "Linear PCM 192kHz/24-Bit DACs." I wonder whether they have jetisoned the WM8719s for this, their flagship product. Also, now no mention can be found on the Wolfson site of the WM8719 (the DAC I saw and photographed in the Onkyo and Intgra DVD players at CES 2004), and the signal to noise ratio listed for the new DVD players (118 dB) is better than the MW8719 could possibly muster.

Presently...
Wolfson is facing some very serious litigation regarding their converters, many brands are changing to other brand parts to avoid being involved..

I saw that Cirrus filed a patent infringement suit against Wolfson in October 2003, and that the WM8719 was one of the chips mentioned, but I have not heard of any recent update.

BTW I got a super terse, borderline rude response from IR when I emailed asking for information about a ship date and/or a trade-in announcement. And this supposedly came from someone in customer "service." They sure are making it easier to decide to buy the D1...

TM

Yeah, I just got a response to a three week old question sent via their website, but it essentially told me that my "information" had been forwarded to product support and that they would contact me "when a decision has been made." Useless, and maddening.

I received an email today from one of the head guys at IR saying that the new stuff will be out before the end of the year and that they are still considering the upgrade path for existing customers.

Steve,

Thanks for the update. Presumably that means they monitor us here and wanted to get some (hopefully) positive word out. That said, if they don't come through now, especially after going out of there way to let us know (through you) that they're still considering it, it'll make me even *more* inclined to go with Anthem (or someone else).

TM

Originally posted by Steve Goff
they are still considering the upgrade path for existing customers.

That doesn't mean that they are still considering a trade in program. Maybe they are just considering upgrading the RDC-7's to firewire.

R

Raz,

Very true (sadly). We'll see soon I guess/hope.

TM

I hesitated from giving a direct quote from the email, but here is is: "As for a trade in policy, we are still considering the upgrade path for existing Integra Research customers." So he had in mind the possibility of a trade in program, but could not say whether one will happen. It would be speculative to read anyting more into this. As you said, we'll see.

Thanks for sharing the quote Steve. I'm still hopeful, though the longer IR takes in shipping the 7.1 and deciding what if any upgrade path they'll offer, the closer we get to Anthem upgrading the D1, potentially removing any timing advantage to one unit or the other (for those of us for whom integrated digital video switching is a must).

TM

Considering the fact that only Anthony and Steve seem to be interested in a trade in - I don't see any other RDC-7 owners posting here or on any other forums - I suggest that IR do the smart thing and give them 2 free RDC-7.1's and end all this brouhaha.

R

Once the word gets out about the RDC-7.1 being released, I'm sure there will be a much greater interest level in a possible trade-in among RDC-7 owners. Also, all such owners don't participate in the various forums. I don't own the RDC-7 myself, but how they handle the trade-in/upgrade situation might have an impact on my RDC-7.1 purchase decision.

Brian

Originally posted by Razvanel
Considering the fact that only Anthony and Steve seem to be interested in a trade in - I don't see any other RDC-7 owners posting here or on any other forums - I suggest that IR do the smart thing and give them 2 free RDC-7.1's and end all this brouhaha.

R

Works for me.

Me too! Thanks Raz :D

Steve, maybe we should take Raz' plan right to the top of IR ;)

TM

The configurator for the 7.1 is up. Looks like only the analogue audio, digital audio and I-Link modules are compulsory. Also I think upgradeability is unlikely, the modules seem to be one per system only and while that may be a firmware limitation I think its probably a hardware limitation caused by specific individual module connectors although the AES option does contradict the idea a little.

From my discussions with the folks at CES, I believe that individual processors can be reconfigured with new or different modules, and that this may happen at the dealer level. We talked about this specifically in relation to the HDMI module, since the plan then was to initially release an HDMI module that did not have DVD Audio capability, with another module later for the same slot that had that capability.

It is otherwise unclear whether the backplane design will permit modules with new functions, as opposed to upgraded modules of the same sort. I kind of doubt that anything radically different and new could be accomidated.

From my discussions with the folks at CES, I believe that individual processors can be reconfigured with new or different modules, and that this may happen at the dealer level. We talked about this specifically in relation to the HDMI module, since the plan then was to initially release an HDMI module that did not have DVD Audio capability, with another module later for the same slot that had that capability.

It is otherwise unclear whether the backplane design will permit modules with new functions, as opposed to upgraded modules of the same sort. I kind of doubt that anything radically different and new could be accomodated.

Steve,

Thanks for that interesting nugget of info. Im wondering if they will offer it without Analogue inputs, Im considering this Pre/Pro and dont actually need any more than the stereo conection on the 5.1 in on the AES/EBU module (Which I'd like). More importantly I wonder if there much to be saved by passing on the analogue board.

As for new functionality how about some old functionality, AC3-RF or am I the only one who wants a neat solution for his old laserdiscs?

Originally posted by Krobar
As for new functionality how about some old functionality, AC3-RF or am I the only one who wants a neat solution for his old laserdiscs?

I am using the B&K DT-1. It automatically switches between PCM and AC3-RF depending on the signal received from the player, which is nice. The drawback is having the separate box. The product may be discontinued, because I was unable to find it on http://www.bkcomp.com/ .

Brian

I'd like an AC3-RF input too :)

TM

Originally posted by anthonymoody
BTW I got a super terse, borderline rude response from IR when I emailed asking for information about a ship date and/or a trade-in announcement. And this supposedly came from someone in customer "service." They sure are making it easier to decide to buy the D1...

TM

My recent experiences have been 180 degrees different than you chaps. I've been corresponding with O/IR over the last two weeks regarding the RDC-7 Firewire upgrade. Some of the exchanges have almost been in "real time" - certainly a refreshing change from emailing and never getting a reply. Been there, done that. Anyway, to the meat:

Me: "Thank you for your speedy reply! From your email, is it safe to assume that the Firewire upgrade is still planned and that it's just not ready yet?"

Onkyo USA Product Support: "Yes it is still planned. Expected release is the first quarter of '05."

There was also a (somewhat cryptic) mention of me being added to their databases and that I would be notified when it was available.

Clearly, with my experience being what it has been and in sharp contrast to many others', it seems as if their troops are not all marching in the same direction.

On a slightly OT subject; I see that Anthem is using the dangerous "future-proof" phrase on their AVM 30. Tsk, tsk. Such absolutes can only lead to "future bouhahas." And in response to some bemoaning absent HDMI/DVI switching on the RDC-7 (and no way to "upgrade" to it), even the awesome D1 has only component video switching.

Originally posted by pepar
even the awesome D1 has only component video switching.
But it's also soon to be rectified.

Originally posted by Johnla
But it's also soon to be rectified.

I must admit that, other than Razvanel and others speaking highly of it, I do not know much about it. Does it have a modular design that facilitates adding tis sort of feature?

Originally posted by Razvanel
If you like the RDC-7 sound then you probably won't like the D1 sound as the two processors sound completely different. I hated the RDC-7 sound and that's one of the reasons why I got the D1.

R

Raz,
Could you discribe how you found the 'sound' of the RDC-7 to be?; e.g. warm, bright, etc.
I ask because the new RDC-7.1 is high on my list of potential purchases.
TIA

Originally posted by Razvanel
If you like the RDC-7 sound then you probably won't like the D1 sound as the two processors sound completely different. I hated the RDC-7 sound and that's one of the reasons why I got the D1.

R

Hi Raz,

Please don't mistake this for an invitation to tussle over opnions, but your use of the term "hate" intrigues me. All of the reviews that I'd read of the RDC-7 found the sound excellent using terms like open, airy, etc. Most of the owners that I've seen post here and on other forums like the RDC=7 sound, and I personally find it excellent. What is is about the sound that you strongly (can't get myself to use the "h" word again) dislike?

"I have the D1 and I agree 100% with your review, its performance as an analog preamp is quite disappointing. I've compared the D1 with the Integra Research RDC-7 and, as an analog preamp, the RDC-7 is MUCH better. On a scale from 1 to 10 - 10 being the highest rating - I would give the RDC-7 a 9 and the D1 a 6.

R"


This was Razvanel's comment on the RDC-7 back in June versus the Anthem D1....The times they are a changing.

I find the RDC-7 sound to be it's best feature. It is very smooth and open without a hint of compression. Someone who uses "Hate" to describe it's sound is either deaf or remorseful over changing his or her processor. As Pepar state all reviews on the RDC-7 have been positive. While sound quality is a subjective you will "love " the RDC-7 sound in all areas.

Originally posted by Frank F
"I have the D1 and I agree 100% with your review, its performance as an analog preamp is quite disappointing. I've compared the D1 with the Integra Research RDC-7 and, as an analog preamp, the RDC-7 is MUCH better. On a scale from 1 to 10 - 10 being the highest rating - I would give the RDC-7 a 9 and the D1 a 6.

R"


This was Razvanel's comment on the RDC-7 back in June versus the Anthem D1....The times they are a changing.

I find the RDC-7 sound to be it's best feature. It is very smooth and open without a hint of compression. Someone who uses "Hate" to describe it's sound is either deaf or remorseful over changing his or her processor. As Pepar state all reviews on the RDC-7 have been positive. While sound quality is a subjective you will "love " the RDC-7 sound in all areas.

1. My first D1 was defective and Anthem replaced it. The 6 rating was given to the defective D1. Now I'd give the D1 an 8 as an analog preamp. As an analog preamp the RDC-7 is still better but not by much.

2. The problem I had with the RDC-7's sound was when I used its digital inputs. The RDC-7 digital section is really bad, the RDC-7 has the most compressed midrange I have ever heard. As a digital preamp the D1 is much better. I really hated the RDC-7 sound and I was very happy when I got rid of it.

3. I don't care what the professional reviewers say - reviewers nowadays like everything they review.

R

Originally posted by Razvanel
1. My first D1 was defective and Anthem replaced it. The 6 rating was given to the defective D1. Now I'd give the D1 an 8 as an analog preamp. As an analog preamp the RDC-7 is still better but not by much.

2. The problem I had with the RDC-7's sound was when I used its digital inputs. The RDC-7 digital section is really bad, the RDC-7 has the most compressed midrange I have ever heard. As a digital preamp the D1 is much better. I really hated the RDC-7 sound and I was very happy when I got rid of it.

3. I don't care what the professional reviewers say - reviewers nowadays like everything they review.

R

OK, fair 'nuf.

Originally posted by pepar
I must admit that, other than Razvanel and others speaking highly of it, I do not know much about it. Does it have a modular design that facilitates adding tis sort of feature?


Pepar,

According to some hints from those who claim to be in the know, apparently the D1 (and AVM30) will have 4x1 HDMI switching added at the very bottom and or top edges of the units. Rumor also has it that it will likely require a trip to the factory to get this upgrade (i.e. dealer can't do it) though obviously none of this has been officially and publicly stated by Anthem.

TM

Originally posted by anthonymoody
Pepar,

According to some hints from those who claim to be in the know, apparently the D1 (and AVM30) will have 4x1 HDMI switching added at the very bottom and or top edges of the units. Rumor also has it that it will likely require a trip to the factory to get this upgrade (i.e. dealer can't do it) though obviously none of this has been officially and publicly stated by Anthem.

TM

Thanks, Anthony.

You're welcome. :)

BTW I realized that I didn't directly answer your question regarding the internal design of the Anthem units. The answer is that from the outside it wouldn't appear that they have a modular design. They have a single, fixed rear panel and the various i/o does not appear to be arranged with modularity in mind. That said, what's happening on the inside of the units is beyond me.

TM

Originally posted by anthonymoody
You're welcome. :)

BTW I realized that I didn't directly answer your question regarding the internal design of the Anthem units. The answer is that from the outside it wouldn't appear that they have a modular design. They have a single, fixed rear panel and the various i/o does not appear to be arranged with modularity in mind. That said, what's happening on the inside of the units is beyond me.

TM

The comment that DVI/HDMI would/could be added led me to wonder if the desin were modular - that and the fact that Anthem is tagging the 30 as "future-proof." (Curious that the "statement" D1 is NOT touted that way though.) That seems, to me, like painting a big red circle and dot on one's back. But I guess "future-resistant" doesn't quite trip the marketing boffins' trigger. Maybe their legal department is under-utilized. :)

BTW, has Steinbrenner bought anybody yet? (Maybe PM me on this so we don't hijack the thread.)

I got a little more info from Onkyo today. "There is no plan for an AC3-RF module at this time", that probably means there never will be one. As for future HDMI, an HDMI V1.1 module was hinted at which more or less confirms what Steve Goff was told at CES.

Yeah and hopefully it'll be 4x1 by then...

As for General Von Steingrabber, it's just a matter of time :D

TM

Originally posted by Krobar
I got a little more info from Onkyo today. "There is no plan for an AC3-RF module at this time", that probably means there never will be one. As for future HDMI, an HDMI V1.1 module was hinted at which more or less confirms what Steve Goff was told at CES.

One of the reasons I was drawn to the RDC-7 in the first place was the AC-3 input. Of course, I haven't watched a laser disk since I hooked up my Pio via component. Of all of the pre/pros I considered - Anthem AVM 20, B&K Ref 30 and one other whose name escapes me - the RDC-7 was the only one with an RF input. I certainly understand why a mfg would not offer one; it's been a LONG time since it was a bullet feature. Sort of consigns LD users to an outboard demodulator.

I think they should have offered AC3-RF with the AES/EBU input, both these inputs are generally being replaced and both are mainly used by "Old School" HT People.

Originally posted by Krobar
I think they should have offered AC3-RF with the AES/EBU input, both these inputs are generally being replaced and both are mainly used by "Old School" HT People.

By "old school", you mean cheap, er . . frugal bastards, er . . individuals like me who are still harboring a LD and a collection of disks.

Yeah that nearly sums it up, applies to me too :)

Of course you have to add Elitist Bastards (For LDs not on Dvd and DTS LD legend) and those who value PCM tracks on Music discs (Although they wouldnt need the AC3-RF).

I just wish there were more authorized dealers near me. I'm at least 45 minutes away from one, and I live in the most densly populated state in the country (NJ)!

Originally posted by Krobar
Yeah that nearly sums it up, applies to me too :)

Of course you have to add Elitist Bastards (For LDs not on Dvd and DTS LD legend) and those who value PCM tracks on Music discs (Although they wouldnt need the AC3-RF).

I'm keeping the LD player - Elite CLD-99 - around for movies that aren't available on DVD and movies that are worth watching every now and then, but are not worth buying on DVD.

IR website started a 'build your own' page. You can choose optional modules among 5 ~ 8 audio and video modules:
AM/FM tuner module
Composite/S-video module
BNC component video module
RCA component video module
Multichannel Analog/AES input module
HDMI module
Net-tune module
...

Basic Digital/Analog audio and i.Link sections seem to be built into the basis system. 2 sets of RCA pre-outs(main zone/2nd zone?) and 1 set of XLR pre-outs are available.

I've downloaded the manual for the DTR-10.5, and the interesting thing here is that you can use DPL IIx on top of SACD for 7.1 sound from a 5.1 source, which says to me that they are converting the DSD stream to PCM. This is also suggested because, unlike with their new universal players, I saw no mention (at least at first glance) of not having speaker distance settings for SACD.

Steve,

I hope you don't mind the conversion. I actually prefer DSD/PCM conversion over direct DSD/Analog conversion, because analog LPF can be made simpler with the aid of DSD/PCM conversion which by nature include the filter-out of DSD modulation noise. This is similar to the reasoning behind oversampling filter for CDs. :)

P.S.

DSD delay can be done without DSD/PCM conversion.

Thanks for the heads up on the DTR-10.5 manual. Im going to have a look at it, I doubt the RDC-7.1 will be hugely different.

Originally posted by jheoaustin
Steve,

I hope you don't mind the conversion. I actually prefer DSD/PCM conversion over direct DSD/Analog conversion, because analog LPF can be made simpler with the aid of DSD/PCM conversion which by nature include the filter-out of DSD modulation noise. This is similar to the reasoning behind oversampling filter for CDs. :)

P.S.

DSD delay can be done without DSD/PCM conversion.

I think the conversion gains you more than it looses, and I can't really tell the difference listening to two channel SACD recordings on my Denon 3910. On multichannel recordings it is difficult to make a comparison because the 3910 provides speaker distance settings and bass managment for DSD converted to PCM that are unavailable with straight DSD.

Originally posted by Krobar
Thanks for the heads up on the DTR-10.5 manual. Im going to have a look at it, I doubt the RDC-7.1 will be hugely different.

That was what I thought, also. It does not look like they are using the same digital architecture as the new universal players.

Some really neat little bits I found:
Can ouput Amp OSD through DVD Player using I-Link!
PL2/2x/THX Ultra2 Game Modes
Superb Multi Zone support inlcuding I-Link DownMix to analogue
Subwoofer Notch Filter
All listening modes available for SACD/DVD-A (96Khz only)
The same high configurability as the RDC-7 (Eg individual settings for every listening mode)
Individual Crossover for every channel (40 - 150Hz)
Dual Configurable Sub Outputs

How about stereo subwoofers? I could not see anything in the manual for the DTR-10.5.

I dont think stereo subs is possible. It does offer choice of one sub, both or none for each listening mode and of course the other rather good sub features I listed above. They probably could provide stereo subs with a firmware update would be my guess.

Originally posted by Krobar
Some really neat little bits I found:
Can ouput Amp OSD through DVD Player using I-Link!
PL2/2x/THX Ultra2 Game Modes
Superb Multi Zone support inlcuding I-Link DownMix to analogue
Subwoofer Notch Filter
All listening modes available for SACD/DVD-A (96Khz only)
The same high configurability as the RDC-7 (Eg individual settings for every listening mode)
Individual Crossover for every channel (40 - 150Hz)
Dual Configurable Sub Outputs

Oooooh, game modes . . .

Product brochures are now to be found on the IR website.

Originally posted by anthonymoody


As for General Von Steingrabber, it's just a matter of time :D

TM

How prophetic.

Has IR ever announced what type processors are used? Seems like I saw a something which indicated that *maybe* they had changed the DAC's from the first announcement; as the latest stuff doens't say Wolfson; I couldnt' remember if they ever said what processors were to be used, even during the first announcement. The website says 2 32 mhz processors; which sounds similar to the Anthem D1 specs.

The only feature the RDC 7.1 seems to be missing which is becoming more and more popular is room correction. With receivers from Pio, Yammy, HK, Marantz, Sherwood-Newcastle etc having this; plus pre/pro's from Lex and Meridian you would think that would be needed to keep this "future resistant", or whatever they are calling it now. If there is enough processing power you would think they could add this via firmware upgrade.

I agree about room correction although not sure whether it's effective but from a marketing perspective at least it makes sense.
I am most interested in the HDMI switching, tuner and quality of the hi-res music path. I am a recent convert to SACD / DVDA through the Denon 3910 and can't believe what I was missing.
One question - how good is the netune feature?

How effective is room correction as included in pre/pros? From what I've seen, it's a band or two of notching and that's just usually not enough to do the job. Am I wrong on this? Do some pre/pros have 3, 4 or 5 bands?

I agree, room correction would be a great feature. I'm not sure how effective it is either, but if it even somewhat improves the sound, I'm very interested. I didn't realize so many other manufacturers had implemented this feature.

I think the RDC-7.1 uses Texas Instruments DSPs. I don't know about the DACs.

TI is Analog Devices is SHARCS?

The 9.4 uses Fujitsu. I just kind of assumed the RDC would too.

TI is not the same as Analogue Devices SHARCS. They are competitors.

Originally posted by Steve Goff
I think the RDC-7.1 uses Texas Instruments DSPs. I don't know about the DACs.

I'm puzzled by the design of this product. Are the DACs upgradeable? The preouts don't appear to be on expansion cards. Also, Are the DSPs upgradeable? If not, I'm afraid that the lifespan of this product might be fairly limited. In addition, I wish the RDC-7.1 incorporated upsampling like the Anthem Statement D1!!

Well, the RDC-7 provides upsampling, so I would expect no less from the RDC-7.1, but who knows.

The Integra DTR 10.5 receiver incorporates digital upsampling as well; according the manual; which is available from the Integra (not IR) website via download. The IR RDC 7.1 manual is not yet available for confirmation; but I would be surprised if its omitted as well.

I agree that in order to declare this a truly upgradeable product the DAC's and (esp.) the DSP's need to be upgradeable. Perhaps the DSP chips are on a plug-in card which requires the cover to be removed; I believe Anthem has a configuration like this that they use to allow current AVM20 owners to upgrade to the chip used in the AVM30; to allow features such as PLIIx. I would hope this would be the case for such an upgradable product as RDC 7.1; as besides I/O the usual issue with adding upgraded software is not having enough processing power. For example, if they decided to do a full-blown room correction addition via firmware (anything remotely close to what Lex and Meridian are doing) I'd be surprised if there is enough processing power available to allow that. Chips get more powerful all the time, however, so in a year or two there may be a chip out which would; just by swapping out a daughter card with the two chips on it. Be interesting to see some internal pics of this guy.

Originally posted by Enigma
I agree that in order to declare this a truly upgradeable product the DAC's and (esp.) the DSP's need to be upgradeable.

In order to be truly upgradeable, wouldn't it need to be come out of the box bread-boarded together with alligator clips?

:D

Well, hopefully They can upgrade RDC-7.1 DSP/DACs by replacing the MOTHERBOARD... ^^;;
It's not impossible though it would be more costly. Apparently, Wolfson DACs are not the best existing, and surely there will be more DSP features needing more than 2 TI DA610 DSPs. Again hopefully, there is a provision in the architecture to add DSP processing cards.

The brochure for the RDC-7.1 shows a picture with the top off. The DACs and analog output/filters are on a separate board right behind the toroidal transformer and right in front of the backplane for the cards. The pink block on that board is the Apogee clock circuit. I'm sure that the DSPs are on a separate board nearby.

Steve,

Thanks for the informative post. This is great news.

Originally posted by Steve Goff
The brochure for the RDC-7.1 shows a picture with the top off. The DACs and analog output/filters are on a separate board right behind the toroidal transformer and right in front of the backplane for the cards. The pink block on that board is the Apogee clock circuit. I'm sure that the DSPs are on a separate board nearby.

I wonder if they are user upgradeable or if you have to bring the system to the dealer for an upgrade.

Originally posted by Steve Goff
Well, the RDC-7 provides upsampling, so I would expect no less from the RDC-7.1, but who knows.

Originally posted by Enigma
The Integra DTR 10.5 receiver incorporates digital upsampling as well; according the manual; which is available from the Integra (not IR) website via download. The IR RDC 7.1 manual is not yet available for confirmation; but I would be surprised if its omitted as well.

Does anyone know how upsampling is done in these products? Do they upsample all inputs like the D1?

Can you order it without the analog audio section?

Krassyg,

I dont think so. Interestingly the analogue section is in two halves so maybe they will offer no analogue or reduced analogue option later.

The analog, digital, and firewire modules are included in the base package. Interesting, since the firewire (i.Link) module is not included in the base package for the Integra receiver.

Ive just read a few interesting thing off the Japanese IR page about the RDC-7.1 (Not sure if this stuff is or is not known already):

5 Wolfson WM8719 Dacs (One is for Zone 2)
Wolfson Electronic volume control
Dual (?) 32bit Texas DSP
Auto 96/24 upconversion
3 Band Equaliser for each channel
All the preamp bits out of the DTR-10.5
You must have the main analogue video module to be able to add any other video modules

Thanks for the info Krobar. Anyone know where these wolfson dacs stack up in the world?

TM

Originally posted by anthonymoody
Thanks for the info Krobar. Anyone know where these wolfson dacs stack up in the world?

TM

Interestingly, Wolfson has apparently removed all mention of the WM8719 from their website, as I've mentioned before. These are the DACs I saw in the DVD players. Here are the specs:


24 BIT DIFFERENTIAL STEREO DAC WITH VOLUME CONTROL


24 bit Stereo DAC

Fully Differential Voltage Outputs

112dB SNR ('A' weighted @ 48kHz) DAC

97dB THDDAC Sampling Frequency: 8kHz - 192kHz

3 Wire Serial Control Interface

Programmable PCM Audio Data Interface Modes

16/20/24/32 bit Word Lengths

Independent Digital Volume Control on Each Channel with 127.5dB Range in 0.5dB

Independent Zero Flag Outputs

On board MUX to select between PCM and DSD inputs

Master or slave operation with Normal or Phase modulated method of DSD data

3.0V - 5.5V Supply Operation

20-pin SSOP Package

Actually, these specs are not that great, and not nearly as good as the WM8740, but that chip does not do DSD natively.

Its not the top of the Wolfson line, spec wise anyway. It has built in volume control and DSD support but since Onkyo probably uses the volume control on chip it most likely converts DSD to PCM first. Still 112 Db SNR and 97Db THD is pretty good.


Link:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cache:hIGNghqMqOgJ:www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/digital_audio/dacs/5/desc/WM8719/+Wolfson+WM8719&hl=en

Edit: Arcam rather like the Wolfson 8740.

Heres a paper:
http://www.arcam.co.uk/downloads/upsampling%20multidac.pdf

And the current top of the range CD player uses four of them!:
http://www.arcam.co.uk/downloads/FMJCD33.PDF

Yes, the Arcams using the WM8740 are very, very good, but do not provide SACD playback. Everything else suggests to me that the RDC-7.1 converts DSD to PCM for processing, so it is unclear why they use the WM8719. Maybe it was a design choice made early on, one backed by the fact that they are using the WM8719 in all their new DVD players.

I think the decision was made because the integrated volumecontrol probably made the design much easier.

Actually looking at the page again it seems I was wrong about the volume control, its just mute and attenuate which doesnt work with DSD.

My guess is the 8719 looks a good highend Dac thats well suited but its not the best possible.

Most likely, they offer a "pure DSD" mode with no signal processing to keep the SACD purists happy. That would require a DAC with DSD capabilities even though those of us who know better wouldn't use it that way. ;)

There is no pure DSD mode mentioned in the manual for the Integra DTR-10.5, which is likely nearly identical to the RDC-7.1 in capability.

3 Band Equaliser for each channel That's potentially a Big Deal. I'd trade all the auto EQ schemes out there for 3 bands of fully user-adjustable parametric EQ any day. Computers just aren't smart enough to interpret in-room measurements correctly but, so far, none of the receiver manufacturers trust us to make the adjustments ourselves.

Originally posted by catapult
Most likely, they offer a "pure DSD" mode with no signal processing to keep the SACD purists happy. That would require a DAC with DSD capabilities even though those of us who know better wouldn't use it that way. ;)

So, is DSD just another IP-driven Sony invention with real world execution problems and handicaps?

Originally posted by catapult
That's potentially a Big Deal. I'd trade all the auto EQ schemes out there for 3 bands of fully user-adjustable parametric EQ any day. Computers just aren't smart enough to interpret in-room measurements correctly but, so far, none of the receiver manufacturers trust us to make the adjustments ourselves.

I'll second that!

Hmm I hadn't noticed the eq. That does sound nice. Re: the mfrs not trusting us, it may be because it's easier to use an eq to screw things up than improve things...though I'd certainly be happy to have it.

TM

Rats! Looking through the Integra receiver manual, the "equalizer" is just a 3-band tone control: bass, mid, treble.

Originally posted by pepar
So, is DSD just another IP-driven Sony invention with real world execution problems and handicaps?

Yes, YOU GOT IT! :)

Originally posted by catapult
Rats! Looking through the Integra receiver manual, the "equalizer" is just a 3-band tone control: bass, mid, treble.


Ugh. Better to have left it out entirely then IMO.

TM

One thing I was thinking is that the Apogee clock could really help I-Link performance since the amp dictates the rate of transfer. An accurate clock on the amp could help reduce jitter even more so for I-Link devices, any one else have any thoughts on this?

It's true that, with i.Link, the only clock that matters is the one in the prepro or receiver. As long as the transport can read the data, jitter in the transport doesn't really matter because the ones and zeros get transmitted as packets of data, stored in a buffer in the prepro, and then reclocked. So, if you're using i.Link, chances are you could use the cheaper Onkyo transport, rather than the expensive IR version, with no loss of audio quality.

Edit: PS - the same thing should apply with NetTune. As long as you have an accurate wav file on your computer, it should get transmitted over ethernet, buffered and reclocked the same way.

I thought that Apogee clock was for recovering high-quality clock from S/PDIF or other no-flow-control links. I still think that Apogee clock wouldn't impact a lot on i.Link clock quality with CD/DVDA/SACD.

Catapault,

Interesting, so infact an accurate clock is more important than its ever been. It will be interesting to see if the new RDC does indeed have the best yet I-Link performance. I would use a Pioneer 59AVI with it if I get one.

One thing I cant understand is how the AV/C commands (PQLS, HATS etc.) can be optional for I-Link. From your description I would assume they are required to prevent buffer overflow or completely unecessary since data is buffered anyway and accurate rate control is hence not necessary.

jheoaustin, you could be right. You need a high-quality, low-jitter clock in the prepro but you probably wouldn't need the Apogee's extra jitter-removing circuits. That said, I don't know exactly how the Apogee does its magic so I'm just guessing.

Krobar, in the long "standard digital interface" (or something like that) thread, dr1394 monitored the commands between a Pioneer receiver and transport. As I recall, it had to run something like an hour before the receiver sent a "slow down" command indicating the buffer was getting too full. So, while it's a nice feature, it's possible that most people wouldn't notice the difference. However, if different brands of components were used, with different clocks, it might be more important. Regardless, it's available in the standard and they should all implement it.

Catapault,

If AV/C is not present then does the Pre amp simply throw away packets in order to stop a buffer overflow or stop transfer until the buffer is ready again?

Also I cant seem to find mention of the Analogue subwoofer signal creation ("Non Scaling Cofiguration") in the new processor .

If AV/C is not present then does the Pre amp simply throw away packets in order to stop a buffer overflow I think so. Buffer underflow is a possibility as well. If both components support it, every so often, the receiver sends one of 3 commands to the transmitter - send normal speed, send a little faster, send a little slower. Most of the time it's the send normal speed command. If they don't support the protocol, the transmitter just sends at the normal speed all the time. dr1394 is the one to ask. He's a professional 1394 developer and has the knowledge and test gear to really dig into how these things work.

Okay, I found a few of dr1394's posts in the long thread. Using a Pioneer transport and receiver, he had to let it run for several hours before he got a slow-down command to prevent buffer overflow. If you pop a disk in and play it once, it will probably never get triggered. But that's with same-brand gear.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2879438#post2879438
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2889583#post2889583
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=2898777#post2898777

FWIW a dealer I'm in contact with claims to have the 7.1 in stock, along with the various modules, and ready to ship. I'm investigating further...

TM

Update: he still claims to have them and is pricing out my build...

TM

Interesting... Although the closest dealer to me is about a 1-1.5 hour drive depending on traffic. Keep us informed anthonymoody, as I am interested in knowing your experiences, especially if you get a chance to demo one.

Originally posted by catapult
I think so. Buffer underflow is a possibility as well. If both components support it, every so often, the receiver sends one of 3 commands to the transmitter - send normal speed, send a little faster, send a little slower. Most of the time it's the send normal speed command. If they don't support the protocol, the transmitter just sends at the normal speed all the time. dr1394 is the one to ask. He's a professional 1394 developer and has the knowledge and test gear to really dig into how these things work.

If flow control is not available in either side of the link, both will work with default isochronous mode. This means that the PLL inside the receiver is engaged to recover clock from time stamp information in the 1394 stream. There shouldn't be any drop-off, but the PLL-generated clock will be subject to jitter, meaning potential sound quality degrade.

Any Integra Research dealers in Las Vegas? Website says closest is in Reno, but that doesn't make any sense.

Originally posted by gimp
Any Integra Research dealers in Las Vegas? Website says closest is in Reno, but that doesn't make any sense.

Image Sound and Control used to be the IR dealer in Vegas. IR dropped them so now the only IR dealer in Nevada is the one in Reno. If you want to demo the unit you're out of luck. If you want to buy it call IR dealers from other states and see what deals you can get - probably 15-20% off MSRP.

R

Any Integra Research dealers in Las Vegas? Website says closest is in Reno, but that doesn't make any sense.

Makes more sense than the UK situation. I tried 8 dealers off the official list today and it seeems that IR is currently unavailable in the UK. The nearest dealer to me is in Germany. :eek:

Well I'm jumping on the sword for everyone. I ordered a 7.1 sight unseen and sound unheard from the dealer I spoke with. He says a 5 day build time plus shipping and that I should have it before Christmas - we'll see. If it doesn't meet my expectations and needs in terms of sound quality I'll have no qualms sending it back and getting the Anthem D1 instead. Thing is, I have two digital video sources already and I really want the ability to easily switch b/t them now, not at some undetermined date in the future (as with the Anthem). I know outboard switching solutions exist, but they are inelegant and don't have a high WAF.

In the meantime I'm still livid at IR for their handling of the topic of this thread - namely the on again off again trade-in policy for RDC-7 owners. We'll see what becomes of this of course. It may still be too early to tell. If I keep the 7.1 and IR doesn't offer a trade in on the RDC-7 then my purchase will certainly represent me swallowing my pride. So be it. I was able to retire the RDC-7 to a weekend home theater (which needed a new pre/pro) so financially no big loss I guess.

If Anthem were ready now with their HDMI upgrade to the D1 I probably would've gone there. But the April time frame last mentioned by Anthem will only slip IMO and I need a pre/pro now so...

Anyway, I'll keep you guys posted.

TM

Anthony,

You're a brave man and I await your verdict, particuarly on the audio and ease of use side of things.

As you mentioned outboard video processing, do IR give out the RS232 codes for their products? I need them if I buy an RDC in order to allow my autoswitching of the video processor through Gider to work.

IR sent me the RS232 codes for the RDC-7, and i suspect they'll do the same for the RDC-7.1.

Krobar,

Sounds like Steve has more info on that. I didn't control my RDC7 via RS232 and wont be doing so with the 7.1 so couldn't tell you how it'd work. Steve, if you want to send me your AMX touchscreen I'd be happy to hook it up to the 7.1 to see if it works ;)

As for ease of use, I must admit that's one thing I found to be fantastic with the RDC7. There was never really a function I couldn't figure out w/o having to check the manual. Hopefully they didn't muck it up on the 7.1!

TM

At CEDIA, one of the representatives showed me a comprehensive document listing every RS232 command for every I / IR product manufactured. They'd put quite a bit of work into it to address installer complaints.

Originally posted by Carlton Bale
At CEDIA, one of the representatives showed me a comprehensive document listing every RS232 command for every I / IR product manufactured. They'd put quite a bit of work into it to address installer complaints.

Heh, heh, nice to know they're addressing *someone's* complaints. <rim shot>

Ay dios mio!

;)

TM

I think the RDC slots may be more flexible than I first thought. The Radio and D4 module (Its a small component video connector) on the Japanese site share the same slot. The connectors are in different positions too so I assume they are ribbon cabled.

Hmm that's interesting. Good catch Krobar. That's (hopefully) good news. In any case I"m sure I'll replace the 2x1 HDMI switching board for one with 4x1 when it ultimately comes out.

TM

I talked to a dealer about basic RDC-7.1 + AM/FM tuner module and got a price $4,060. $4000 for base and $60 for the tuner card. Hopefully all other optional modules are priced reasonably like this.

Trust me, you can do better than that...

TM

Yep, I was just amazed that tuner card was at $60, not that the base system is $4K. :)

Hmmmmmm, still no manual for the RDC-7.1 on the IR website. Wonder what the holdup might be.

jheoaustin,

gotcha!

TM

Does anyone know how many subwoofer outputs the RDC-7.1 will have?
My RDC-7 has one plus a LFE output. I would like more if possible.

Originally posted by Lyson
Does anyone know how many subwoofer outputs the RDC-7.1 will have?
My RDC-7 has one plus a LFE output. I would like more if possible.

Your post sent me scrambling. I have an RDC-7 and I do not have "(a subwoofer output) plus a LFE output." I have one sub out on XLR and two sub outs on unbalanced circuits. I'd love to have an LFE out separate from (and independent of) the sub outs so that I could drive a Clark Synthesis with ONLY LFE. Are you sure you have a sub out AND an LFE out?

Originally posted by pepar
Your post sent me scrambling. I have an RDC-7 and I do not have "(a subwoofer output) plus a LFE output." I have one sub out on XLR and two sub outs on unbalanced circuits. I'd love to have an LFE out separate from (and independent of) the sub outs so that I could drive a Clark Synthesis with ONLY LFE. Are you sure you have a sub out AND an LFE out?

Oops maybe I'm wrong - the back of the RDC-7 lists the RCA sub outputs as 1 and 2. I'll check the manual as my recollection was the sub 1 was the sub - and the second RCA output was the LFE. I'll check and let you know.

Originally posted by Lyson
Oops maybe I'm wrong - the back of the RDC-7 lists the RCA sub outputs as 1 and 2. I'll check the manual as my recollection was the sub 1 was the sub - and the second RCA output was the LFE. I'll check and let you know.

Cool!

Does anyone actually own the RDC 7.1 yet....the new one that is? If so, how does it sound? What about the RDA 7.1? Did they change it much?

I'm expecting delivery on my 7.1 some time this week. Unfortunately it'll be a few weeks beyond that before my system is up and running as I'm coming through a (major) renovation...

I'll keep everyone posted best I can though...

TM

Originally posted by anthonymoody
Unfortunately it'll be a few weeks beyond that before my system is up and running as I'm coming through a (major) renovation...

We want PICTURES!

YES, we (I) NEED pictures :)

See if you can see what the Op amps are.

I know that the op amps in the analog section of the Integra 10.5 DVD player (right after the DACs) are just 5534s, but we'll see with the RDC-7.1. The digital to analog conversion board on the RDC-7.1 is right on top, in front of the backplane for the modules and in back of the big transformer near the front of the unit.

By the way, one of the best-sounding, best-measuring DACs now available, the Benchmark DAC1, uses the lowly 5534, and its designer says that the latest expensive op amps would degrade its performance.

I'll get pix posted as soon as I'm able. As soon as it arrives I'll take a look at everything and post some pix. One caveat - with the amount of construction dust floating around my place, I'm not likely to take the cover off for now...

TM

Originally posted by Steve Goff

By the way, one of the best-sounding, best-measuring DACs now available, the Benchmark DAC1, uses the lowly 5534, and its designer says that the latest expensive op amps would degrade its performance.

Does that make sense somehow?

Pepar,

I've been pondering this and come to the conclusion that it's over my head :)

TM

Originally posted by anthonymoody
Pepar,

I've been pondering this and come to the conclusion that it's over my head :)

TM

Maybe those op amp designers should visit BALCO. :D

The 5534 still has very good specs and very low noise, if used correctly. Some say it has been surpassed by newer designs, but some good designers still use it.

I've made an appointment for tomorrow to audition the RDC-7.1. If you have any questions you would like me to ask the dealer please let me know.

R

Originally posted by Razvanel
I've made an appointment for tomorrow to audition the RDC-7.1. If you have any questions you would like me to ask the dealer please let me know.

R

Could you ask for some specifics on multizone? For example can I have 5.1 via I-Link in Zone A, Optical Source 1 in Zone B and Optical Source 2 in Zone 3?

I'll ask, no problem.

R

Raz, Could you confirm whether or not the DACs and DSPs are upgradeable? And if so, whether they are user upgradeable or require a trip to the dealer. The answers to these questions will determine whether I will consider this unit further.

Thanks,

Colin

Well I got the UPS tracking number on mine and it's due here on or around the 28th :( Sorry I won't have pix up in time for Santa but I'll keep you posted.

TM

PS - Raz, looking forward to your thoughts...

Originally posted by Colin Banfield
Raz, Could you confirm whether or not the DACs and DSPs are upgradeable? And if so, whether they are user upgradeable or require a trip to the dealer. The answers to these questions will determine whether I will consider this unit further.

Thanks,

Colin

Sure, I'll ask him.

R

I just got back from the IR dealer. Unfortunately I couldn't audition the RDC-7.1 as they were not done setting the IR pieces up.

I've seen the 3 IR units - the processor, the amp, and the universal player - and the build quality is out of this world, the best I have ever seen.

The dealer told me that the RDC-7.1 DSPs are upgradeable but not user upgradeable. The DACs are not upgradeable. All the modules are user upgradeable. He didn't know the specifics on multizone.

R

Originally posted by Razvanel
The dealer told me that the RDC-7.1 DSPs are upgradeable but not user upgradeable. The DACs are not upgradeable. All the modules are user upgradeable. He didn't know the specifics on multizone.

R

Bah! All these ugradeability capabilities and some basic things are difficult or impossible to upgrade. Poor design! :mad:

I'm going to risk a flame here and say that at some point, especially in light of today's (and tomorrow's) sources, DACs become "good enough" for me. Very high quality 24/96 or 192 should be more than enough to handle everything that BR/HD-DVD throws our way.

Will something better come along? Of course. But between upgrading DSPs and DACs, I'd take the former as long as the existing DACs are of sufficiently high quality.

That said, I don't mean to be an apologist for IR, and those who know me know that I'm (still) all to ready too take them to task for their awful handling of the RDC7 upgrade (or lack thereof). I absolutely agree that DAC upgradeability should've been built in. But I personally think I can live without it.

TM

TM,

Thank you for your great information. I assume that you have RDC-7.1 at home now, and are enjoying it. Could you list your other gears so that I can guess for myself RDC-7.1 DACs are enough?
Could you also do me a favor? If you have some programmable remote, could you try a macro that controls both 1st zone volume and 2nd zone volume at the same button push, and see how it works? Thank you.

Originally posted by Colin Banfield
Bah! All these ugradeability capabilities and some basic things are difficult or impossible to upgrade. Poor design! :mad:

Is there ever a perfect design? Would we all agree on it if we saw one? Could anyone but a billionaire afford it? Everything I can think of - and not just in A/V gear - is a combination of great, good and not so good features and executions thereof. For me, at least, "good enough" happens way before "perfect."

Maybe the IR people at CES will be able to provide more info on the RDC-7.1's DACs and DSPs. The dealer might have gotten the wrong/incomplete info, you never know. The new IR units do look impressive though and in terms of build quality nothing that I have seen so far - that includes my Anthem D1 - compares to them.

R

jheoaustin,

My 7.1 is in the mail, supposed to arrive on the 28th. However, it won't be set up in my system until some time in January (sorry - it's killing me too!) b/c of a renovation I'm doing. I hope to be able to answer as many questions as possible then. That said, I'm not much of a multi-zone guy so I'm not sure how much help I'll be there....

TM

PS - I agree with Raz - the info may be wholly inaccurate. So far the officially published info on the 7.1 is scant. I'm guessing more will emerge at CES when these things are shipping in greater volume

I don't think the dealer is correct that the DACs could never be upgraded. The whole digital to analog conversion process in the RDC-7.1 is carried out on one separate board, which includes the Apogee clock, the DACs, and the analog stages after the DACs. As long as the connectors to and from the board remain the same, one board could be swapped out for another. On the other hand, I doubt that this will ever happen, since the rest of the processor is built arround the notion that eight channels with 24/192 capability are sufficient for alll known formats.

I wish RDC-7.1 had 16 XLR outputs instead of 8 XLRs and 16 RCAs. Anyway, from a would-be-hacker's view point, the other 8 outputs for 2nd zone must be usable for a single zone with appropriate module addition and some hack or mod. I think also an optional DAC/analog output module can be made to comply the existing slot architecture.

Pardon if I missed it, but was is the MSRP for the base 7.1 and each of the optional card?

I saw a NR1000 receiver deal a week back that listed it as $3.7K with all the boards. Granted it does the Onkyo does not have the same DAC but I think the DSP is the same. Isn't the NR1000 and Integra 10.7 (?) basically a slightly detuned 7.1 with 7-ch amplification? Or are they completely different animals? The NR1000 was a good deal but I just didn't want to trust it's internal amps and have decided to wait for a good pre/pro -- ie the 7.1

Originally posted by jheoaustin
I wish RDC-7.1 had 16 XLR outputs instead of 8 XLRs and 16 RCAs. Anyway, from a would-be-hacker's view point, the other 8 outputs for 2nd zone must be usable for a single zone with appropriate module addition and some hack or mod.

This makes perfect sense; a "zone 2" system is more than likely going to be "remote" from the main system making balanced circuits nearly a requirement.