KVOR and KMAX are now tied for king of the band from Walnut Grove, both are exactly the same strength on the analyzer.

I noticed that KOVR is very clean on the analyzer. On KMAX I can see the signal leaking past the mask filter below -45 dBc. On KOVR I can't see anything at > -60 dBc which is the noise floor on my analyzer.

This made me curious about KTFK, your channel neighbor, which is now 20 dB weaker than KOVR. Its SNR was never as good as KOVR and I wondered if it might be getting a little interference from KOVR since it is so much weaker. Right now both KOVR and KTFK have the same SNR of 25 dB. I would expect this since both antennas are on the same tower and the channels are adjacent. The multipath should be about the same. I'll be checking this over time to see if it holds up.

Chuck

KVOR? Another new station I wasn't aware of :)

Btw, KTFK has also increased power or will soon be increasing power. I know the new transmitter was being constructed a few weeks ago.

Given all the discussion about beam width, maybe this would be a good place to pose this question. The discussion here has made me consider adding a field to the RabbitEars database, "beam width" or similar.

But how would I define "beam width" exactly? I don't think I've seen a clear definition of what beamwidth is officially. I was thinking about making it the space between the points at which the signal is dropped 10 dB from its peak. So for KOVR, the beam width would be about 5 degrees, while for KQCA it would be about 2.1 degrees. But is this a fair number? Is this the official definition, if there is one? And what about stations like KQCA which drop off at that point, but then recover to -6 dB before falling off again?

In a bit of quick research, I found the "half power beam width" which I assume is a 3 dB drop but I'm not sure how helpful that information would be or if that's what I'm looking for. Is that the official definition? For that, KQCA would be about 1.2 to 1.4 degrees while KOVR would be about 3 degrees.

Thoughts are appreciated.

- Trip

trip: The angle across the main lobe of an antenna pattern between the two directions at which the antenna's sensitivity is half its maximum value at the center of the lobe

From http://www.answers.com/topic/half-power-beamwidth#ixzz1YeL0nHNk

But how would I define "beam width" exactly?

In a bit of quick research, I found the "half power beam width" which I assume is a 3 dB drop but I'm not sure how helpful that information would be or if that's what I'm looking for. Is that the official definition?

- Trip

To the best of my knowledge, unless otherwise specified, beam width means "half power beam width" or 3 dB beam width.

I pulled out my data sheet on my M2 2M beams and the horizontal beam width is specified as 40 degrees. It's clear from the accompanying graphs that they refer to +/- 3 dB.

Ignore any "recovery" in the pattern. Those are side lobes. Sometimes the first null and the first lobe positions are mentioned for antennas but most of the time they are not.

If you add that to your database, you should mention it is vertical beam width.

Chuck

The poor reception "some" foothill viewers are getting is due more to their exact location than it is to antenna gain. Those who don't have intervening trees or hills get good reception from the valley and in many cases from the Bay Area. So, it is clear that the signal is reaching the mountains, but it can't get into the sheltered areas. These pockets are not on a line of sight from Walnut Grove and no antenna design is going to fix that problem.

To answer the second part of your question, high gain antennas are used as a means of increasing the effective radiated power of the station without generated an excess of power at the output of the transmitter. An antenna in the middle of the UHF band will have a typical gain of around 18db. If a lower gain antenna, let's say 6db, were used it would require a four fold increase in the power out of the transmitter with a proportional increase in the cost of the equipment and building and, most importantly, the cost of electricity to run it. It would also require a much larger transmission line to handle the power and that would require a more substantial tower to withstand the increased structural loads.

The enormous increase in cost of all of this would yield no benefit, as most of the power out of the low gain antenna would go directly into the ground or out into space.

I made my arguments outlining why low gain broadcasting antennas need to be implemented in areas serving hilly and foothill regions in a detailed 4-30-11 posting which you may have missed:

Why Broadcasters Need to Choose Better Suited DTV Transmitting Antennas
04-30-11, 03:45 AM
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=20376102#post20376102

There is no benefit to a broadcaster using a high gain antenna to save a few bucks on power when the narrow beam of the high gain antenna misses much of its target viewing audience during inversions and inclement atmospheric conditions. My Pollock Pines location is capable of receiving the signals of all Walnut Grove stations plus some Bay Area stations so long as the center of the beam is not bent by refraction beyond an effective elevation angle which provides a signal with sufficient ERP to be viewed. The low gain antennas used by KOVR and KSPX consistantly provide the most reliable UHF reception here. The KCRA/KQCA/KMAX antenna is the highest gain UHF broadcast antenna in the entire state of California, providing the most unreliable signal to foothill regions locally. This is a very large and expensive panel antenna which yields very poor results.

The low gain antennas used by KOVR and KSPX consistantly provide the most reliable UHF reception here. The KCRA/KQCA/KMAX antenna is the highest gain UHF broadcast antenna in the entire state of California, providing the most unreliable signal to foothill regions locally.

From Trip's website, it seems like KOVR has the highest (or at least equal) gain antenna of the bunch.

KOVR = 15.35 dB

KCRA = 15.04 dB

KQCA = 15.145 dB

KMAX = 15.35 or 14.9 dB

Ron

dr1394:

You're looking at the aux antenna. The main antenna currently doesn't have a gain listed (because construction permits don't contain a TPO value) but for the 760 kW value I have this in my database:

58.6 kW TPO - 1.66 dB line loss + 12.79 dB antenna gain = 760 kW ERP

- Trip

Now operating at full power.


I've left the TV set tuned to KOVR this morning with an eye on the signal strength. Overall I'd say the signal is about 1 to 2 dB stronger now than it used to be here in San Francisco. The other stations are at about their normal levels today, so I think this is a fair judgement, but we'll have to see how things go over the long run.

Larry
SF

dr1394:

You're looking at the aux antenna. The main antenna currently doesn't have a gain listed (because construction permits don't contain a TPO value) but for the 760 kW value I have this in my database:

58.6 kW TPO - 1.66 dB line loss + 12.79 dB antenna gain = 760 kW ERP

- Trip

12.79 dB is correct.

I've left the TV set tuned to KOVR this morning with an eye on the signal strength. Overall I'd say the signal is about 1 to 2 dB stronger now than it used to be here in San Francisco. The other stations are at about their normal levels today, so I think this is a fair judgement, but we'll have to see how things go over the long run.

Larry
SF

Interesting thing is that we have a viewer in the city who has been watching KOVR with an indoor antenna for years now. She calls me every time we switch to the backup. I told her she lives in a sweet spot and never to move.

Bob

If I understood this correctly, 8traxrule was complaining his TV was stretching 10.2 4:3 to 16:9 and he couldn't change it.
That's what I'm seeing on 10.2. Although, there is some 16:9 programming on 10.2, and that programming's aspect ratio looks correct.

LiveWell was launched today replacing the weather.
10-2 Looks like shitt. Upconverting 4x3 to fit 16x9 ?
It is blurry and does not fit in the standard 4x3 tube here.

Looks like a upconverted feature in those cheap DVD players.
That makes a standard movie look HD size ... but a little blurry.
7-2 looks better (If you can get that station) use it.

Now operating at full power.
.
It's all about location. KOVR tv says "No Signal"
Only 9 and 10 from Walnut Grove come in ... actually quite strong too.

Of all the shows I watch on ABC, Castle is the only one that continues to have audio problems season after season. The problem-

Center channel dialog missing or very low or coming through the rear channels and/or bad echo effect. Worse at the very beginning of the show, sometimes clears up, sometimes gets bad again after commercial break.

Happens on OTA antenna and Comcast. Posted in National master "Castle" thread, no other markets affected. Can KXTV please fix???

Happens on OTA antenna and Comcast. Posted in National master "Castle" thread, no other markets affected. Can KXTV please fix???

Amen to your request. It was particularly bad in a couple of scenes last night. It is not a new problem. I've noticed it during the last three years on many 10:00 PM ABC dramas.. I wonder if someone prematurely flips a switch in preparation for the 11:00 PM news.

Besides Castle I only watch two other ABC shows in that time slot, Revenge and Pan AM. Revenge seemed OK.

I've noticed some more weird conditions here in San Francisco over the past couple of days. Some stations have got stronger while others have gotten weaker than their average signal levels.

KCRA 3, KMAX 31 and KQCA 58 have all been lower than normal by as much as 6 dB. KQCA dropped below the cliff edge yesterday and disappeared. KVIE and KOVR from Walnut Grove and KFTY from Mt. St. Helena were all 5 to 6 dB stronger than normal. In fact, KFTY was putting in a 30 dB signal here from 65 miles away. Not bad for their 20 kW ERP signal! KXTV never seems to change.

That was until this afternoon. Today KCRA, KMAX and KQCA were all higher than normal. KQCA, that was gone yesterday, was putting in a 21 dB signal today, and I was getting a 27 dB SNR signal from KMAX, while both KVIE and KOVR were back pretty much to normal. KFTY was about 4 dB lower than normal and was only coming in at 20 dB today. KXTV didn't change.

I find these radical changes to be quite amusing. It's interesting how some go up while others go down, and, as I've pointed out before, it doesn't seem to be frequency related either.

One other thing... I think KQEH 54 (RF50) has raised their power. They used to always be near the cliff edge here, often dropping out completely. For the past few weeks their signal has been solid and coming in around 20 to 21 dB. Anyone else notice the difference in the KQEH signal?

Larry
SF

I've noticed some more weird conditions here in San Francisco over the past couple of days. Some stations have got stronger while others have gotten weaker than their average signal levels.

KCRA 3, KMAX 31 and KQCA 58 have all been lower than normal by as much as 6 dB. KQCA dropped below the cliff edge yesterday and disappeared. KVIE and KOVR from Walnut Grove and KFTY from Mt. St. Helena were all 5 to 6 dB stronger than normal. In fact, KFTY was putting in a 30 dB signal here from 65 miles away. Not bad for their 20 kW ERP signal! KXTV never seems to change.

That was until this afternoon. Today KCRA, KMAX and KQCA were all higher than normal. KQCA, that was gone yesterday, was putting in a 21 dB signal today, and I was getting a 27 dB SNR signal from KMAX, while both KVIE and KOVR were back pretty much to normal. KFTY was about 4 dB lower than normal and was only coming in at 20 dB today. KXTV didn't change.

I find these radical changes to be quite amusing. It's interesting how some go up while others go down, and, as I've pointed out before, it doesn't seem to be frequency related either.

Larry
SF

Yes, Saturday had unusually bad inversion conditions affecting all Walnut Grove UHF stations at some time. At one point, KOVR barely hung on to a viewable signal here in Pollock Pines even with the power increase. By Sunday morning, conditions had totally reversed. KQED was even viewable for a while. Of course, KCRA/KQCA/KMAX was most affected, as I have previously emphasized, due to its overly high gain, narrow beam broadcast antenna.

Most of the Bay Area stations are using high gain antennas, such as the Dielectric TUM-C5SP-14/60H-2-R-T, a 14 layer panel antenna, only slightly lower gain than the 16 layer KCRA/KQCA/KMAX panel antenna. If Bay Area stations were using lower gain antennas like KOVR's, I would be regularly receiving UHF Bay Area stations here in Pollock Pines instead of just the KGO and KNTV VHF stations. Before the DTV transition, many Bay Area DTV stations were using lower gain antennas and I received Bay Area UHF stations far more frequently even though the antennas were at lower height and power. That all changed when the Sutro Tower antennas were "upgraded" after the transition.

I find these radical changes to be quite amusing. It's interesting how some go up while others go down, and, as I've pointed out before, it doesn't seem to be frequency related either.

Larry
SF

Compared to what I see here, I'm amazed at the relative stability of distant signals at your location.

Over the long term, I've discovered that inversions affect different transmitter sites in different but consistent ways. Walnut Grove signals almost always go down, rarely up. Mt. Sutro seems to go up and down about the same amount, maybe +/- 10 dB. VHF and UHF usually don't track each other. Fremont can have large increases in signals. Decreases are usually brief. KAXT which is normally not receivable, can achieve SNRs in the upper 20's. Salinas stations rarely drop below their nominal levels but 10 dB increases occur almost everyday and last for hours. Good conditions can bring signals up 30 dB. KMUV analog 23 which is typically quite snowy, can become full quieting. These conditions affect VHF and UHF equally.

Chuck

My sister lives in Banta and for some reason I could get stations ranging from San Jose/San Francisco, Fresno, Chico, Salinas and Redding. She lives off Chrisman Rd in Banta.

My sister lives in Banta and for some reason I could get stations ranging from San Jose/San Francisco, Fresno, Chico, Salinas and Redding. She lives off Chrisman Rd in Banta.

I had to check Google maps to see where Banta was located. I see that it's east of Tracy, south of I-205, and west of I-5.

What is your sister using for an antenna? She's getting a lot more channels than I would expect from that location.

Larry
SF

Compared to what I see here, I'm amazed at the relative stability of distant signals at your location.

Over the long term, I've discovered that inversions affect different transmitter sites in different but consistent ways. Walnut Grove signals almost always go down, rarely up. Mt. Sutro seems to go up and down about the same amount, maybe +/- 10 dB. VHF and UHF usually don't track each other. Fremont can have large increases in signals. Decreases are usually brief. KAXT which is normally not receivable, can achieve SNRs in the upper 20's. Salinas stations rarely drop below their nominal levels but 10 dB increases occur almost everyday and last for hours. Good conditions can bring signals up 30 dB. KMUV analog 23 which is typically quite snowy, can become full quieting. These conditions affect VHF and UHF equally.

Chuck

has anyone in sf area ever receive the la stations btw of tropo ducting? is not possible, i can get boston 175 miles away when tropo is strong. i even gotten virginia beach 350 miles

has anyone in sf area ever receive the la stations btw of tropo ducting?

I haven't, but keep in mind, in LA and SF, the tv dial is full in both markets.
Seems like every UHF-VHF dial spot is used, in every city.
Example
40 San Francisco, 40 Sacramento, 40 Los Angeles, Etc.

i think most areas also have a channel 7 too. And 9, and so on.

Not sure what dial spot is used the most. 25 ? 40 ?
There are 3 stations flying the (ABC-7) circle 7 banner. I don't think California uses channel 2 and 6 much for digital. Everything else is kinda full.
Chico/Redding, San Francisco, Los Angeles

From Oakland I have received KSBY 6 San Luis Obispo, KCOY 12 Santa Maria, and possibly KEYT 3 Santa Barbara, but I didn't get an ID on that one. This was before the digital transition.

As was pointed out, co-channel issues would make it difficult to pick up LA from the Bay Area. Also the path down the coast range isn't conducive for good tropo openings.

has anyone in sf area ever receive the la stations btw of tropo ducting? is not possible, i can get boston 175 miles away when tropo is strong. i even gotten virginia beach 350 miles

The ducting situation is much different here in the west than it is in most of the east. We have lots of high mountain ranges and those break up ducts. Those multi hundred mile ducts are mostly impossible here.

Even though many of the LA stations are on Mt. Wilson and are in the 6000' foot elevation range, there are higher mountains directly north which shield the signals from getting into a duct that might extend up the San Joaquin valley. If they were on the mountains south of Bakersfield instead of the mountains north of LA, then that would be a different story.

An exception is one lost_mesa pointed out. There's a narrow channel down the Santa Clara valley and then down the Salinas valley to the KSBY transmitter site is that lines up with the East Bay the best. Occasionally there was a duct that permitted reception of KSBY. KCOY was farther south and more difficult to receive.

Although I never heard of anyone receiving KEYT on 3 in the Bay Area, I have experienced several ducts down that same path when I lived there and was able to work into a Santa Barbara 2M repeater on 147 MHz that was atop the mountains north of Santa Barbara.

The reason I get such tremendous signals from the Salinas TV stations at my current location is I think there is only one ridge to cross between here and Fremont Peak or Mt. Toro. It's almost line of sight but not quite. Any duct that forms works quite effectively on this path.

I'm only 82 miles from the main Reno transmitter site but I can't receive any of those stations because the path crosses the Sierra Nevada. Ducts can't form across those mountains.

Chuck

In the analog days, at my parents' house in Davis where they have a roof antenna with a rotor, sometimes stations from all over the place would come in on channels 2 and 4. I saw stations from Kansas, Colorado and some from Canada and Mexico. Usually they would all come in at the same time- if you kept it on one channel, one station would come in, fade out and then a different one would start coming in. Channel 3 would have obvious interference on it too, but KCRA's signal was too strong to be completely overtaken.

On UHF, stations from Fresno and Bakersfield sometimes came in. Never got anything from Los Angeles.

The ducting situation is much different here in the west than it is in most of the east. We have lots of high mountain ranges and those break up ducts. Those multi hundred mile ducts are mostly impossible here.


Yep, mountains can be a curse, they break up ducts and as you point out, can completely block reception on some paths. I never saw a hint of any of the UHF stations from the San Joaquin valley with my 7 ft. UHF dish antenna.

But mountains can also be a blessing. From near the top of the Oakland hills I did have a gap toward the Sacramento valley. KOLO 8 Reno from Mt Rose was always there, no tropo needed. At 160 miles it was pretty weak, but by carefully nulling out KSBW 8 Salinas, it was sort of watchable.

KHSL 12 Chico was also usually there. On very rare occasions, when 7 or 9 in SF where off the air, I could pick up a very weak signal from the Redding stations. This was in the 60s and 70s, I no longer live there.

I had 10 element single channel yagis for channels 2, 6, 8 and 12, along with the 7 ft dish and assorted home brew preamps. The TV I.F. was narrowed down to about 2 MHz to increase the SNR, but made for some pretty low res pictures.

Until yesterday, I was getting KFTY's programming per their published schedule. Now all I get on 50.1 is soccer! Any suggestions?

KEMO (formerly KFTY) is now the Azteca America afffiliate for San Francisco.

- Trip

Wow- KEMO was channel 20's original call letters in the 60s and early 70s. It was a real bargain-basement UHF station then from what most remember about it- and after that it became a Spanish station before being bought by Jim Gabbert and going back to independent!

What happened? Bad time to be off the air with the 49ers game on in 1.5 hours if you depend on OTA.

Chuck

Edit: Back on the for the game but at 1/4 power or maybe less.

Edit 2: Now they're have all kinds of bit errors even though the signal is SNR 25 dB. I switched to KCBA. No problems there.

What happened? Bad time to be off the air with the 49ers game on in 1.5 hours if you depend on OTA.

Chuck

Edit: Back on the for the game but at 1/4 power or maybe less.

Edit 2: Now they're have all kinds of bit errors even though the signal is SNR 25 dB. I switched to KCBA. No problems there.
My thoughts exactly. I wasn't sure what to make of it when I turned on the tv this morning and KTXL was blank. Now that it's back, it appears to have plenty of signal strength, but breaks up anyway. (Glad to know it's not just me.)

Gee, it would be nice if someone at these stations would put something on their webpage or twitter or something when this stuff happens just so we'd know what's up, w/o thinking it might be on our end.

BTW, the 49ers score just became 23-23 if anyone cares. ;)

What happened? Bad time to be off the air with the 49ers game on in 1.5 hours if you depend on OTA.

Chuck

Edit: Back on the for the game but at 1/4 power or maybe less.

Edit 2: Now they're have all kinds of bit errors even though the signal is SNR 25 dB. I switched to KCBA. No problems there.

Digital 40 ... is on the air now in San Francisco.
Not saying this is the problem ... but maybe some signal there.
So use "FOX 35" now. (VHF 13) RF

Digital 40 ... is on the air now in San Francisco.
Not saying this is the problem ... but maybe some signal there.
So use "FOX 35" now. (VHF 13) RF

KTXL looks to be back to full power now. When it was off the air yesterday morning I looked at 40 on the analyzer to see if I could detect any signal from KMMC and I saw nothing.

Chuck

Looks like KOVR is on the back-up site this morning. I wouldn't have even noticed but I was taking advantage of this first storm to check the signals with no inversions present after I reverted back to 2 UHF antennas. The signal was down about 6 dB from what I expected but the SNR was the same as on the main site which is good news for me.

I have one modification left to perform before winter comes but 2 antennas 10' higher on the new tower seem to give equal performance to 4 antennas to Walnut Grove in terms of SNR and higher SNR than 10' lower on the old tower.

Chuck

Looks like KOVR is on the back-up site this morning. I wouldn't have even noticed but I was taking advantage of this first storm to check the signals with no inversions present after I reverted back to 2 UHF antennas. The signal was down about 6 dB from what I expected but the SNR was the same as on the main site which is good news for me.

I have one modification left to perform before winter comes but 2 antennas 10' higher on the new tower seem to give equal performance to 4 antennas to Walnut Grove in terms of SNR and higher SNR than 10' lower on the old tower.

Chuck

On the main site but at 1/3 power.

For those interested in the details of TV station changes, here is a summary of what's happened in recent weeks in the San Francisco, Sacramento and Monterey markets:

RF 11 new station for Monterey dismissed
RF 11 KOTR Santa Cruz 1.85 kW on Loma Prieta Mt. - construction permit approved
RF 25 KOVR 13 Stockton now transmitting at 1000 kW
RF 26 KTFK 64 Stockton now transmitting at 850 kW
RF 32 KFTY 50 Santa Rosa is now KEMO airing Azteca America as of October 1. They have requested a power increase to 50 kW
RF 32 K32KK Stockton 5 kW at 272 feet to transmit from Hughson - construction permit approved
RF 39 K39JM Sacramento power increase to 15 kW - construction permit approved
RF 40 KMMC 40 San Francisco has switched to digital airing MTV-TR3S from Mt. San Bruno. They applied to increase their power from 3.2 to 44 kW. I don't know what they're running now.
RF 42 KPIX 5 translator Napa 1.28 kW on Mt Vaca - construction permit approved
RF 43 KMCE Monterey channel change from 46 to 43 and power increase to 15 kW - construction permit approved
RF 45 KBCW 44 San Francisco now licensed for 1000 kW
RF 49 K49KS Santa Rosa is licensed for digital operation at 1 kW with transmitter at 341 feet northeast of Santa Rosa (Has anyone seen this station on the air?)
RF 50 KTEH 54 San Jose call sign change to KQEH
RF 51 KBTV 8 Sacramento has requested a move from ch 51 to ch 27

Source: AVS Forum, W9WI monthly updates and FCC website

Larry
SF

For those interested in the details of TV station changes, here is a summary of what's happened in recent weeks in the San Francisco, Sacramento and Monterey markets:

RF 11 new station for Monterey dismissed
RF 11 KOTR Santa Cruz 1.85 kW on Loma Prieta Mt. - construction permit approved
RF 25 KOVR 13 Stockton now transmitting at 1000 kW
RF 26 KTFK 64 Stockton now transmitting at 850 kW
RF 32 KFTY 50 Santa Rosa is now KEMO airing Azteca America as of October 1. They have requested a power increase to 50 kW
RF 32 K32KK Stockton 5 kW at 272 feet to transmit from Hughson - construction permit approved
RF 39 K39JM Sacramento power increase to 15 kW - construction permit approved
RF 40 KMMC 40 San Francisco has switched to digital airing MTV-TR3S from Mt. San Bruno. They applied to increase their power from 3.2 to 44 kW. I don't know what they're running now.
RF 42 KPIX 5 translator Napa 1.28 kW on Mt Vaca - construction permit approved
RF 43 KMCE Monterey channel change from 46 to 43 and power increase to 15 kW - construction permit approved
RF 45 KBCW 44 San Francisco now licensed for 1000 kW
RF 49 K49KS Santa Rosa is licensed for digital operation at 1 kW with transmitter at 341 feet northeast of Santa Rosa (Has anyone seen this station on the air?)
RF 50 KTEH 54 San Jose call sign change to KQEH
RF 51 KBTV 8 Sacramento has requested a move from ch 51 to ch 27

Source: AVS Forum, W9WI monthly updates and FCC website

Larry
SF

Where does he find his information? CDBS doesn't show the KOTR application for 1.85 KW as approved. I don't know where else to look. Same for the KMCE app to change to channel 43.

Another channel 32? That's turning into a graveyard channel here, much like the 1400's on the AM radio band. KEMO, KION, and now K32KK. Ugh!

What's the chance the FCC will approve 44 KW for an LP UHF station? Is there any precedence for more than 15 KW?

Chuck

A lot of the information I get is published by Doug Smith, W9WI, in the monthly "VHF-UHF Digest", the publication of the Worldwide TV FM and DX Association. Doug must get the information from the FCC somewhere, but I have no idea where that might be. His accuracy has been right on! You can email him at w9wi@w9wi.com. His website is http://www.w9wi.com and the WTFDA site is http://www.wtfda.org.

Larry

Bob, Any chance KOVR will back at full power before Amazing race is over tonight?

Quote from NYCDigital: has anyone in sf area ever receive the la stations btw of tropo ducting? is not possible, i can get boston 175 miles away when tropo is strong. i even gotten virginia beach 350 miles

Farthest I ever saw was pre digital. Picked up a channel in Amarillo, Tx from Pleasant Hill, Ca. (Over 1100 miles.) Was able to watch the entire news broadcast before it dropped out. I was able to see it better than any channel from S.F.

Post digital I've been able to pick up Channel 8 from Reno, Nv. frequently in Martinez, Ca. 180 miles give or take.

So much for "enjoying" OTA tonight in Martinez. First KOVR is off the air. KPIX has zip for a signal and now KNTV drops the audio. I guess I'll have to wait for HULU to post all the shows I'm missing. ;>

KOVR is not off the air but I think it's on the back-up site which Bob has said means not much signal to the west. It's weaker than KTFK here and the SNR is lower. I was lucky I got the Good Wife recorded.

Chuck

Bob, Any chance KOVR will back at full power before Amazing race is over tonight?

Late answer.....

Here's the issue. Our new transmitter uses liquid cooled tubes as is the case with all high power UHF transmitters. The transmitter was installed as a turn-key by a very reputable manufacturer. Nearly every coolant plumbing connection has been leaking, however, and we demanded that the manufacturer come back and make things right.

We have been operating on our number 2 backup, which is the old transmitter at the main tower but switched over to our backup tower (solid state transmitter) late Sunday afternoon.

I'm hoping that everything will be back to normal (1MW) tomorrow.

Bob

So much for "enjoying" OTA tonight in Martinez. First KOVR is off the air. KPIX has zip for a signal and now KNTV drops the audio. I guess I'll have to wait for HULU to post all the shows I'm missing. ;>

As I have said many times on this forum, when we are on the auxiliary tower site, we have no signal in the SF market. We use a directional antenna to cover the market with a 388 KW ERP and an instant-on solid state transmitter.

With three transmitters, it's nearly impossible for us to be "off-the-air" but some of you outside the market will be affected when either of our stations are operating from the auxiliary tower.

Bob

Bob,

I see KOVR has filed an application to raise your antenna by about 75'. Is that something you're hoping to do in 2012?

Chuck

Bob,

I see KOVR has filed an application to raise your antenna by about 75'. Is that something you're hoping to do in 2012?

Chuck

Maybe, but if not 2012, probably 2013.

Sorry to hear about all the problems. I am getting a signal, just not enough to be of any value. My biggest complaint is I'm about half way between Walnut Grove and Sutro. I can get every station from Sutro EXCEPT KPIX. So when KOVR is off the air I have no CBS, which is of course what we happen to watch the most. ;< When we had analog, I could always get 12 out of Chico, alas no more even with the 7777 preamp and the biggest Channel Master Yagi made.

Sorry to hear about all the problems. I am getting a signal, just not enough to be of any value. My biggest complaint is I'm about half way between Walnut Grove and Sutro. I can get every station from Sutro EXCEPT KPIX. So when KOVR is off the air I have no CBS, which is of course what we happen to watch the most. ;< When we had analog, I could always get 12 out of Chico, alas no more even with the 7777 preamp and the biggest Channel Master Yagi made.

Back at 1 MW.

- Bob

So as to minimize cross posting, the details and images are here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=21071140#post21071140

There was a tremendous duct this morning that allowed me to receive KEYT and KPMR from Santa Barbara. KPMR on RF 21 completely overrode KMAX.

Chuck

The California mountain Broadcast Peak reaches elevation greater than 4000 feet. This makes help from inversions at both locations very likely for Calaveras. KMAX blocked from Walnut Grove while long distance from the southwest is dialed in.

Were you aiming for Santa Barbara at the time?

The California mountain Broadcast Peak reaches elevation greater than 4000 feet. This makes help from inversions at both locations very likely for Calaveras. KMAX blocked from Walnut Grove while long distance from the southwest is dialed in.

True. My horizon to the south is essentially 0 degrees.

Were you aiming for Santa Barbara at the time?

Was I pointed to Santa Barbara? Yes. But as I explained on the thread linked above I discovered it by accident. A comment about NOAA wx radio got me to listen on the wx band where I heard the station from Broadcast Peak which in turn made me think to point the antennas south and look for those DTV stations.

Chuck

Living at the north end of Oroville looking Northeast at Table Mountain has proved interesting. I can get most Sacramento Channels better here than I could in Yuba City by aiming at the hill and gathering the reflections. :)

Living at the north end of Oroville looking Northeast at Table Mountain has proved interesting. I can get most Sacramento Channels better here than I could in Yuba City by aiming at the hill and gathering the reflections. :)

I want more details here. How far are you from Table Mountain? Are signals greater or just more reliable? Is your antenna outdoors? Do you have a rotor so that you can aim for Walnut Grove correctly? You're only around 90 miles away from Walnut Grove :)

deltaguy:

My TvFool plot looks like this:

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/319571_300123823347993_100000511339386_1235124_136201186_n.j pg

By analyzing Google maps, I believe I am about 7000' Southwest of the "O" on the hill.

But I get most Sacramento stations by aiming at K42HL on Bloomer Hill.

The Antenna is a homemade Dual bay Gray-Hoverman on the back patio. Aiming due South at Walnut Grove only receives KRCR off the back.

I can get KCRA, KXTV, KTXL, KMAX and KOVR with 18 to 22 SNR but all are watchable day and night with minimal fade. I cannot reliably receive KVIE or KSPX, though.

I have not attempted to receive the Bay Area yet.

That's a mighty fine Mesa for television reception you've got there N6ULO. Thanks for the report.

Why was Criminal Minds not HD 16x9 last night? CSI was fine...

deltaguy:

My TvFool plot looks like this:

I can get KCRA, KXTV, KTXL, KMAX and KOVR with 18 to 22 SNR but all are watchable day and night with minimal fade. I cannot reliably receive KVIE or KSPX, though.

I have not attempted to receive the Bay Area yet.

And I thought my TVFool plot was bad. Yours is about the worst I've seen. It's likely the reason you have trouble with KVIE is because it's co-channel with KIXE and you're only 30 miles from it.

My TVFool results are linked below and I added my own dots to indicate how I receive the stations compared to what TVFool predicts. I also added a list of stations that should be on the list. The Reno and Fresno stations shouldn't even be on the list.

Chuck

Why was Criminal Minds not HD 16x9 last night? CSI was fine...

Server issue. Had to resort to a SD backup.

And I thought my TVFool plot was bad. Yours is about the worst I've seen. It's likely the reason you have trouble with KVIE is because it's co-channel with KIXE and you're only 30 miles from it.

My TVFool results are linked below and I added my own dots to indicate how I receive the stations compared to what TVFool predicts. I also added a list of stations that should be on the list. The Reno and Fresno stations shouldn't even be on the list.

Chuck

I am sure I could probably pick up KIXE by peaking on KRCR, but I have not tried yet. It's amazing how well signals bounce off the hill, thank God I am so close to it. The funny thing is, when Sacramento fades out (about 5-10% of the time) all signals go together and sometimes I get plenty of signal but a high error rate. Sometimes I can't pick up anything at all except analog 8.

The antenna is only up 12' or so right now. I will see about going higher when I am done unpacking.

-Ken
Ken

Is KCRA 3 on a different antenna or on back up power? They usually average about 20 dB SNL here, but they're now down in the 13 dB range lately. Of course that means "No signal", no picture. All of the other stations are showing their average signal, or better. KQCA 58, in fact, has been 2 to 3 dB stronger than normal lately.

Larry
SF

No change in signal strength here in Stockton.

KCRA is normal strength here. I would know if it was on the back-up site.

Chuck

I watched this week's episode of Revenge on two different AV receivers this week. One with HDMI, one with an optical cable. In both cases, the audio was really messed up. It seemed like most of the audio was coming out of the rear channels. The audio on most of the ABC shows I watch (Castle, Revenge) have similar issues. I have to cut the rear channel by 10dB.

This has been going on for some time on KXTV-HD during the 10:00-11:00 PM time-frame. Hard to believe that ABC is the cause of the crappy Dolby 5.1 sound. My guess is the smart KXTV technicians go home at 9:59 PM every night leaving either a faulty automated system in place, or perhaps semi-trained monkey).

I think I found out why I haven't been able to receive KCRA for the past few days while the rest of the Walnut Grove stations have been normal. I just received the following post from the SF HDTV Yahoo Group:

"I randomly flipped my workplace's DTV receiver in San Jose to RF 35 today and KGO (ABC) is transmitting there now."

It looks like KGO's translator on Monument Peak in the South Bay is desensing the signal for KCRA here in San Francisco. KCRA has normally been in the 20 to 22 dB range, but has been in the 13 dB range for the past three days. I was hoping that the KGO translator wouldn't affect my KCRA reception, but it looks like is.

Larry
SF

IIt looks like KGO's translator on Monument Peak in the South Bay is desensing the signal for KCRA here in San Francisco. KCRA has normally been in the 20 to 22 dB range, but has been in the 13 dB range for the past three days. I was hoping that the KGO translator wouldn't affect my KCRA reception, but it looks like is.

Larry
SF

I was afraid this might be the case. The translator made your noise floor go up 8 or 9 dB. :(

Chuck

Hello,

I could use a little advice. I've recently decided to cut out cable and live off of the antenna, but the transition has not been completely smooth.

I live in South Sacramento and I am trying to use the ancient antenna that came with my home. I get all of the major channels except fine except for KCRA-3. I often get interference on that station with the picture freezing or getting strange artifacts and the audio cutting out.

I think the ancient antenna is pointing slightly southeast when it should be pointing slightly southwest. It appears to be a directional antenna to my untrained eye. There is also coax running all over the place from years of people using the antenna, then installing Dish, DirecTV and Comcast -- all of whom tried to use existing runs -- creating a giant mess of cabling.

The antenna looks a little bent, and the mast it is mounted to is busy rusting out. On the other hand, my roof is a nightmarish deathtrap. It is really tall and peaked, and currently wet and slipper. My brother opined that if I was going to go through the bother of getting up there to turn the antenna to point the right direction, I might want to think about going further.

I was considering junking it all, replacing the antenna and rerunning the coax to my three TVs, but I wasn't sure what I needed as far as antennas went.

I'd love to get more channels, but I don't think I care about that enough to rotate the antenna every time I want to watch Vietnamese bowling from Bakersfield or whatever.

What would be a good antenna for me to purchase that would get me the maximum number of OTA channels with no work after the initial setup? I figured I'd ask the experts before trying to work it out myself.

Thanks in advance for your help. TVfool plot attached.

What would be a good antenna for me to purchase that would get me the maximum number of OTA channels with no work after the initial setup? I figured I'd ask the experts before trying to work it out myself.

Thanks in advance for your help. TVfool plot attached.

That's an impressive list of channels that you could likely receive! The problem of course is that they're in many different directions. This comes down to how much effort do want to put into it? The Sacramento stations are extremely strong at your location and you don't need a big antenna. Something like this should work just fine for those:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HD7694P&d=Winegard-HD-7694P-High-Definition-VHF%2FUHF-HDHD769-Series-TV-Antenna-(HD7694P)

If you want to have a better chance at more stations on the list you'll need a rotor. You might get stations from other directions with the antenna not pointed at them, but it'll be hit and miss.

From your description it sounds like you'd be best to scrap what you have now and start from scratch. The setup would be simpler. Do not use a preamp. The Sacramento stations are too strong for one.

Personally I don't recommend omni directional or indoor antennas if you have an outdoor option.

Come back if you need more help.

Chuck

Personally I don't recommend omni directional or indoor antennas if you have an outdoor option.

So no omni-directional? That was what I figured was the safest route. My logic was that the Sac stations would come in strong regardless and that the omni-directional antenna might more easily pick up San Francisco stations that were coming in from other directions.

Thanks for the advice. I'll probably suffer through the winter and then redo the antenna system when it gets a bit warmer.

I've heard the opinion is that omni-directional antennas receive equally poorly in all directions....

They are low gain and are highly susceptible to multi-path, the bane of digital reception.

Is there a good website that explains the woes of fringe digital reception.... and why digital/8vsb doesn't work like the good ol analog days of snowy/ghosty picture yet very watchable? I tried to google it real quick but didn't come up with much.
I've had two people this week ask for my help; but I wanted them to know what they're up against before I provide any help. They're both older gents and probably used to the good ol analog days of receiving a bounced signal off the hill etc...
Thanks, Bob C

Most deep fringe folks didn't realize just how bad that snowy picture was, but they were still glad to have it....

Is there a good website that explains the woes of fringe digital reception.... and why digital/8vsb doesn't work like the good ol analog days of snowy/ghosty picture yet very watchable? I tried to google it real quick but didn't come up with much.
I've had two people this week ask for my help; but I wanted them to know what they're up against before I provide any help. They're both older gents and probably used to the good ol analog days of receiving a bounced signal off the hill etc...
Thanks, Bob C

This is the best page I know of but it probably doesn't provide the information you'd like in a concise manner:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/

I'll take a stab at answering your question but I'm not sure I'll be successful.

The analog world is pretty easy to understand. A TV picture ranged from perfect studio quality reception to so snowy you could barely make out the picture. Signal to noise ratio was represented in the picture by how much snow and/or ghosts you saw.

8VSB is an analog modulation scheme that has to deal with noise too. What you're really asking about is the ATSC encoding scheme. This consists of data compression, data randomization, and a couple levels of error correction. This data stream is used to modulate the 8VSB signal. In order for this to work and the TV tuner to be able decode a picture and sound, there can only be just so much noise. The maximum level of noise that the system was designed to handle occurs at 15.2 dB signal to noise. At lower SNRs the entire encoding scheme breaks down and the TV cannot produce a picture or sound. The system was designed to produce a perfect picture and sound or none at all.

You almost always hear that since it's digital TV, it either works or it doesn't work, like the digital concept of 1 or 0. That's not the case. It's the ATSC data encoding scheme that causes this "digital like" behavior.

To illustrate this a bit further, I used to receive NOAA low orbiting weather satellites that used BPSK modulation - another digital modulation scheme. This data was very simple, no data compression and no error correcting. It did contain formatting data. When the SNR was too low, some of the bits were received in error due to noise. The resulting pixels assembled from that data would be the wrong brightness values. It looked just like noise. A weak signal could produce a very noisy image, similar to analog TV. To obtain a noise-free image, the SNR needed to be high enough so that noise had no impact on the data decoding. A picture would be produced until the receiver lost carrier phase lock otherwise it just assumed the data was correct.

I'm going to try to explain how noise affects digital modulation, but specifically 8VSB. 8VSB is amplitude modulation and transmits 8 discrete amplitudes. In this system each amplitude represents 3 bits of digital data which are called Symbols. Symbols represent digital 000 - 111. There is never any actual digital 1's and 0's transmitted like you think of it in a computer. It's an analog representation of a digital number. If the SNR is very high, the received amplitude will be the same as the transmitted amplitude. As the SNR goes down, noise begins to randomly alter the received amplitude. There's a small range of amplitudes (think of it as a window) that will still decode the same digital number. Even high SNRs above 20 dB do not produce a perfect received amplitude. As the SNR continues to drop, some symbols will appear out of the correct amplitude range and be decoded as a symbol different from what was transmitted. This is a bit error although it's actually an error of 3 bits. If there are not too many errors, the ATSC system can use its built in error correction to fix these and still produce a perfect picture. At some point there are too many errors to be fixed and the system collapses. An SNR of 15.2 dB is generally the lowest SNR where all the errors can be fixed.

Because of the complexity of the ATSC encoding system, it needs virtually perfect data for it to work. This is the reason why it cannot just fade into the noise like NTSC could.

Multipath acts very much like lowering the SNR. Some of it can be corrected but much of it cannot.

I hope this was helpful, but I don't make any guarantees. :)

Chuck

Calaveras wrote: Multipath acts very much like lowering the SNR.

Here's an added note to his interesting explanation:

How good your reception is depends on how well your tuner handles multipath. The older receivers were very poor at handling multipath, but over time they have improved immensely. I have an old Sony XBR2 from 2001 that sits in the corner of the office here, but is seldom turned on, because the receiver in it is so bad. Using the same antenna input as my newest receiver, a Panasonic plasma from last year, the old Sony gets less than half the stations as the newer Panasonic. Signals that lock perfectly on the new set, show up as "No Signal" on the old set.

Larry
SF

About 1:30PM today, LWN on 7.3 from Redding and What has been LWN on 10.2 from Sacramento were showing different programming. Has 10.2 changed to something else?

About 1:30PM today, LWN on 7.3 from Redding and What has been LWN on 10.2 from Sacramento were showing different programming. Has 10.2 changed to something else?

10.2 is still LWN. Different affiliates have different programming.

A possible solution to temperature inversion and multipath issues with Sacramento and Bay Area DTV reception? By late 2012 a new tuner may become commercially available that will greatly improve reception of current OTA HDTV broadcasts and eliminate multipath problems by using multiple receiving antennas, well beyond the 2.5 dB gain possible by ganging two antennas together today:

Could new "SuperTV" reception technology change the Mobile DTV equation?
Dec 1, 2011 4:41 PM, By Phil Kurz
http://broadcastengineering.com/RF/new-reception-technology-change-Mobile-DTV-12012011/

"SuperTV technology using four car antennas makes possible reception of legacy ATSC from a moving vehicle. Although ATSC A/53 was designed for reception of 8-VSB by a TV antenna mounted some 30 feet overhead on a rooftop, SuperTV combines signals from multiple antennas to achieve ground-level reception capable of defeating both Doppler effects and multipath problems that normally would prevent reception of conventional DTV signals in a moving car, said Karamchedu. With two antennas and the MRC technology, the company has seen antenna gain as high as 7dB, and with four it has achieved 12dB of antenna gain, he added.

"With our breakthrough SuperTV technology, for the first time our customers can enhance picture reception quality by simply adding more antennas” said Dr. Lin Yang, Legend Silicon http://www.legendsilicon.com/ co-founder, CTO and inventor of single-carrier MRC diversity technology in a company press release.

"A minimum signal-to-noise ratio of 15.2dB is still required for legacy reception — regardless of the receive antenna configuration," he added."


See:

U.S. Patent Application 20110026579
NOVEL EQUALIZER FOR SINGLE CARRIER TERRESTRIAL DTV RECEIVER
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20110026579.pdf

U.S. Patent Application 20110080526
MULTIPLE TUNER TERRESTRIAL DTV RECEIVER FOR INDOOR AND MOBILE USERS
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20110058526.pdf

U.S. Patent Application 20110058600
MULTIPLE TUNER ATSC TERRESTRIAL DTV RECEIVER FOR INDOOR AND MOBILE USERS
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20110058600.pdf

The Icom 2820 D-Star digital transceiver uses diversity reception with two antennas. Most users don't install the second antenna as the ones who do claim they can't notice a difference. In the areas where DV reception might be improved, it's almost impossible to tell when diversity is helping. Not quite sure how they are combining the signals to measure "gain" in the TV application. I was under the impression that diversity filled in the holes when the first antenna is blocked, yet the signal is reaching the second antenna.

The Icom "diversity" is NOT anything like Legend Silicon's single-carrier MRC diversity technology. All Icom does is switch antennas. MRC diversity technology is a complex mathematical algorithm that eliminates signal noise by comparing, processing, and combining the signals and datastreams separately received by two or more tuners through separate antennas. See:

U.S. Patent Application 20110026579
NOVEL EQUALIZER FOR SINGLE CARRIER TERRESTRIAL DTV RECEIVER
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20110026579.pdf

IC-2820H Dual Band FM Transceiver
http://www.icomamerica.com/en/products/amateur/dstar/2820h/default.aspx
"Diversity receive capability
If you have two antennas, diversity receive* capability is useful for mobile operation where the received signal strength changes continuously. Within a single band, the radio compares signal strength from each antenna and chooses the better signal to maintain good sound and receive quality."

Also see:
Advantages of Diversity implementation on mobile & portable TV receivers
http://www.dibcom.info/Images/Upload/pdf/whitePaper3_diversity4p_B_0805.pdf

For those interested in the details of TV station changes, here is another summary of what's happened in recent weeks in the San Francisco-San Jose, Sacramento-Stockton and Salinas-Monterey markets:

RF 7 K07ZK Monterey - new station has been approved for channel 7 running 300 watts from Mt. Toro
RF 21 KMUV Monterey - analog station on channel 23 has been approved to go digital on channel 21 with 1 kW from Fremont Peak. Station has applied for increase in power to 4.5 kW.
RF 27 KBTV 8 Sacramento - has been granted a change of channel from channel 51 to channel 27
RF 27 KTSF 26 San Francisco - has been granted a power increase to 858 kW
RF 33 KDJT 33 Salinas - station has been approved to go digital with 9.2 kW from Fremont Peak
RF 40 KMMC 40 San Francisco - station has requested power increase from 3.2 to 6 kW. Previous request for increase to 44 kW was rejected.
RF 42 KAXT 1 San Jose/San Francisco - station has been granted a power increase to 1.5 kW

Source: AVS Forum, W9WI monthly updates and FCC website

Larry
SF

Correction:

RF 42 KAXT 1 San Jose/San Francisco - station has been granted a power increase to 15 kW, not 1.5 kW

Larry
SF

KMAX is on the backup transmitter.

I figured they must be on the backup transmitter. I'm getting no signal here in San Francisco when their signal is normally in the 22 to 25 dB range. Same thing happens when KOVR goes on the back up. I think it's actually the same transmitter for both.

Found an interesting thing with my repositioned antennas. I now get 9, 10, 13 and 31 all with pretty decent signals, 17 db and higher, with my CM4228 pointed in the direction of 320 degrees. I must be getting a good bounce off of the hills. Doesn't work for any of the other Walnut Grove stations, though, and it doesn't work for the 10 element VHF/4228 combo located about 12 feet away.

Larry
SF

I figured they must be on the backup transmitter. I'm getting no signal here in San Francisco when their signal is normally in the 22 to 25 dB range. Same thing happens when KOVR goes on the back up. I think it's actually the same transmitter for both.

Found an interesting thing with my repositioned antennas. I now get 9, 10, 13 and 31 all with pretty decent signals, 17 db and higher, with my CM4228 pointed in the direction of 320 degrees. I must be getting a good bounce off of the hills. Doesn't work for any of the other Walnut Grove stations, though, and it doesn't work for the 10 element VHF/4228 combo located about 12 feet away.

Larry
SF
We use a common backup transmitter and antenna, which operates at 388 KW ERP, for both KOVR and KMAX. As I have said in the past, there is no power directed towards the SF market.

The particular day Chuck mentioned was the day we installed our new studio-to-transmitter ink.

Bob

Here's an interesting article that discusses many of the problems encountered in DTV transmission which are behind unreliable Bay Area and Sacramento DTV reception as it relates to DTV transmission standards. It also demonstrates why Congress and the FCC blew it by prematurely adopting the indequate, legacy ATSC 8-VSB standard in rushing to satisfy the grab for broadcast spectrum by AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, and Obama's Blackberry, forcing the American public and broadcasters to rush out and invest in already outdated and inadequate DTV and HDTV equipment and converter boxes:

Does China Have the Best Digital Television Standard on the Planet?
By Raj Karamchedu, Chief Operating Officer, Legend Silicon
First Published May 2009
http://www.legendsilicon.com/?t=1&m=3&v=,176


TDS-OFDM (Time Domain Synchronous – Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexing)

http://www.legendsilicon.com/images/products/TDS-OFDM-02.gif

Technical Features
■ Advanced signal processing technology in the time-frequency domain.
■ Guard interval used for multi path protection as well as frame identification, signal acquisition, carrier recovery, symbol timing recovery and channel estimation.
■ Pseudorandom Number (PN) sequence stream is defined in the time domain, and the Discrete Fourier Transform (DFT) data stream is defined in the frequency domain. The two streams are then multiplexed in the time domain, enabling Time Domain Synchronization (TDS).
■ The PN sequence uses spread spectrum technology for fast signal acquisition and tracking capabilities, enabling fast channel changing for digital television.
■ The PN sequence provides signal strength information, which can be used to acquire the strongest signal through receiver adjustment and antenna orientation.

From http://www.legendsilicon.com/?t=1&m=1&v=17

I have several Directv HD Receivers in the house, 3 DVR's and one HD receiver. On all the receivers today and yesterday, when the image is panned or there is motion on the screen there is a considerable amount of smearing and pixelation. I had Directv out to the house today to run two new cables for a new receiver and he could not find anything obvious. The signal strength was strong on several receivers and he also re-cabled the existing connections and added a new cable run and a multiswitch. Please note the problem was there before he did any work.

My outdoor antenna has a much better signal on the local channels so this appears to be a Directv issue. Any ideas what may be going on?
wussery is online now Report Post

Way back in April Smoke_signal made a detailed post about the antenna gain of the Sacramento stations and the reception problems of stations with the highest gain antennas. Since that time I've tried to stay aware of which stations have the largest signal swings and the most dropouts under varying conditions. It's very hard to take actual data on this as just about any station can be affected by conditions, i.e., temperature inversions. But after months you do get an idea of which stations have the most problems. I compiled a list of the stations and the vertical beamwidth of their antennas. I was able to track down all the manufacturer specs from the individual station's FCC applications for their original DTV construction permits. KXTV is the only one I couldn't find and I think this is because they're using their old analog antenna and the original permit is not on-line and the antenna is too old to find in the manufacturer's current catalog. I approximated using a similar current model.

Here's a list from widest beamwidth to narrowest.

Station / Beamwidth-Degrees

KVIE /10.75
KXTV / 4.2
KOVR / 3.0
KSPX / 2.5
KTXL / 2.25
KTFK / 1.75
KMAX-KCRA-KQCA / 1.2

As predicted, my observation is that the KCRA trio has the largest swings in signal strength and the most dropout problems. I have never observed a dropout on KVIE and the signal swings are limited to just a few dB under the most adverse conditions. Much of the time there seems to be little affect if any on it.

All the other stations experience dropouts at times. There's been a couple of bad nights over the last week with the very strong inversions we've had. One night last week the low temperature here was 50 F with a freeze warning in the valley.

KOVR is the best of the UHF stations but it's not immune from dropouts. KSPX is a close second along with KTXL. I don't watch KTFK but it seems to be close to KOVR which is a surprise.

KXTV has a lot of multipath so I get some dropouts on it but it takes really adverse conditions.

I wonder what other people who have less than perfect reception are experiencing? What are the most problematic stations? I especially wonder how KVIE and the KCRA trio compare to here. Is this just a foothill problem and no one else experiences it?

Chuck

Update: Last night (12/27) was classic. There was a dip in conditions in the early evening. KQCA was gone. KCRA was on the cliff. KMAX was barely hanging on. KVIE was completely unaffected. KXTV & KSPX slightly affected. The others somewhere in the middle.

Update 2: There's no figuring out this inversion stuff. Last night (12/29) around 10 pm all the station were nominal SNRs except KVIE which was down 6 dB! Still didn't drop out.

... I wonder what other people who have less than perfect reception are experiencing? What are the most problematic stations? I especially wonder how KVIE and the KCRA trio compare to here. Is this just a foothill problem and no one else experiences it?


The Walnut Grove stations all vary in strength here in San Francisco, some by as much at 6 or 7 dB. All of the UHF stations seem to vary up and down together and by the same amount. If KOVR drops 3 dB, for example, KCRA, KMAX and KQCA do too.

The two VHF stations don't seem to be affected as much. KVIE usually follows the up and down trend of the UHF stations, but usually not by as much. If they go up 3 dB, KVIE might go up one or two dB. KXTV varies the least. While it will change and does follow the ups and downs of the other stations, the change is usually very small.

KVIE, KXTV and KOVR occasionally drop below the cliff edge, while KMAX and KQCA stay above it. KMAX is the strongest station with a normal signal of 23-24 dB, followed by KQCA at about 21 dB, KOVR at 19, KVIE at 18 and KXTV at 17. I have never received KTFK or KSPX , but their signal pattern doesn't favor the Bay Area. There's a local low power station, KMMC, on channel 40, so there's no chance of receiving KTXL.

KCRA used to be like KMAX and KQCA, but since the KGO translator has come on the air on channel 35, it is below the cliff edge except for times when signals are coming in really well, then it might peak at about 16 dB.

Larry
SF

[QUOTE=Calaveras;21400150]

I wonder what other people who have less than perfect reception are experiencing? What are the most problematic stations? I especially wonder how KVIE and the KCRA trio compare to here. Is this just a foothill problem and no one else experiences it?

KVIE is bullet-proof here. Always on. 20-65 signal.
KXTV has some dropouts. And the antenna must be aimed exactly. The issues are usually because the wind kicked the antenna a few degrees off.
Exact antenna aim ... and antenna pre-amp are the only way those 2 stations work here.

I am in a blocked location ... from Walnut Grove.
Mt. Diablo is the first signal blocker on the path from Walnut Grove.
Then the Alamo, Danville, Castro Valley hills as the second layer of signal blocking rock.
As a result, no UHF tv stations .. from Walnut Grove
The VHF -vs- UHF signal ... clearly shows UHF cannot go over Hills & Mountains
Then add the multipath and its DOA.

Before UHF Digital tv, 13 -KOVR & 3 -KCRA were the signal leaders here.
Talk about a "new" channel line - up. .... (Or station drop)

I live just north of you in Amador Co at 3300 feet near Daffodil Hill. I have lost KCRA for as much as 50% of the time. On one antenna it doesn't even scan in. I suspect the KGO transmitter as the problem as ch 36 usually peaks when KCRA drops out. KSPX is the most consistent Walnut Grove station. KXTV is nearly 100% consistent on my VHF antenna and even is about 90% on the UHF only. KVIE is inconsistent on both antennas. KTLN from Novato is the strongest station here always hitting about 95 on the Dish converter. KTXL is consistent at 80-85. Channel 33 (RF3) is the only VHF channel that never drops out everything else is subject to inversions, ducting etc.

I live just north of you in Amador Co at 3300 feet near Daffodil Hill. I have lost KCRA for as much as 50% of the time. On one antenna it doesn't even scan in.

How about KMAX and KQCA?

I suspect the KGO transmitter as the problem as ch 36 usually peaks when KCRA drops out.

That transmitter has only been on the air for a couple of months. Was KCRA fine before November? According to the antenna pattern for KGO 35, it has only 12 milliwatts in our direction so it's pretty unlikely that could cause us a problem. I'm sure KGO had to take extreme precautions to make sure that they didn't interfere with KCRA in the valley. What's more likely is that the conditions that enhance KICU degrade KCRA.

What is your UHF antenna?

Chuck

What antenna is KTXL 40 using anyway? Back in March 2011 the FCC antenna data was:

KTXL 40 CP MOD SACRAMENTO 950. kW 601. m Make: DIE Model: TFU-30DSC-R T145
Antenna: Directional Beam Tilt: Electrical Deg: 0.75 Polarization: Horizontal

Now the FCC data is showing a completely different antenna with a 2-lobed directional polar plot (however the Service Contour plot still shows the March 2011 contour):

KTXL 40 CP MOD SACRAMENTO 1000. kW 601. m Make: DIE Model: TFU-24ETT/VP-R 3BP250SP
Antenna: Directional Beam Tilt: Electrical Deg: 0.5 Polarization: Elliptical

KTXL Detailed Query
http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=10205
Status Date: 09/23/2010
Engineering Details
http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/eng_tv.pl?Application_id=1327585

What antenna is KTXL 40 using anyway? Back in March 2011 the FCC antenna data was:

KTXL 40 CP MOD SACRAMENTO 1000. kW 601. m Make: DIE Model: TFU-24ETT/VP-R 3BP250SP
Antenna: Directional Beam Tilt: Electrical Deg: 0.5 Polarization: Elliptical


Since this is the only one listed now, I have to assume that's it.

Chuck

From Doug Smith, W9WI, via the Worldwide TV-FM DX Association "VHF-UHF Digest":

Sacramento, CA:
1-New, channel 43, 100 kw, 304 m, 38-37-49/120-51-20 - Grant Education Foundation
2-New, channel 43, 650 kw, 354 m, 38-43-10/120-59-22 - Calvary Christian Center

Both of the channel 43 applications in Sacramento have been conditionally approved. There's a 30-day window for filing objections, assuming these objections fail, both applications are likely to be granted (there is little chance of a viable objection).

The two stations can be expected to share time. It is likely the two will arrange to share the same transmitter - to my knowledge all existing time-sharing operations (on FM) in the US do. But it wouldn't be entirely unprecedented for the stations to use two separate transmitters.

Larry
SF

Latest update on stations in this area, from Doug Smith, W9WI, via the Worldwide DX Association "VHF-UHF Digest":

Martinez - Request for flash cut to digital for K49HV, channel 49, 15 kW
Monterey - Granted digital station - KMUV-LD, channel 21, 4.5 kW - move from channel 23 analog
Sacramento - Request for power increase - KXTV, channel 10, to 28.6 kW
Sacramento - Two applications conditionally approved for channel 43. The stations are expected to share the channel. 1-100 kW, 2-650 kW (See more details above.)
San Francisco - Power increase granted - KMMC, channel 40, 6 kW
San Jose - New translator, KGO-0824IJ - channel 35 - for KGO, San Francisco
Santa Rosa - Power increase granted - KEMO, channel 32, 20 kW, 928 m

Larry
SF

KXTV has been operating at 28.6 kw under a temporary authorization for a long time. They are not increasing power only making the temporary authorized power permanent.

KXTV has been operating at 28.6 kw under a temporary authorization for a long time. They are not increasing power only making the temporary authorized power permanent.

I think it's the same situation for KEMO.

Chuck

K49HV in Martinez is shown going digital on channel 49. When I went to check on the transmitter location for my DTV lists I found that the map shows the station as being in the hills above Palm Springs near Indio. Did someone goof on the transmitter coordinates? Apparently not. Someone posted on the San Francisco OTA thread that LP stations do not have to cover the city of license and that the transmitter is actually down south. I've never heard of a channel 49 in Martinez in the East Bay... now I know why. That's really weird, though.

Update: Someone reported that there is a town by the name of Martinez near Palm Springs, so K49HV is licensed to that Martinez, not the one in the East Bay.

Funny to see the KEMO call letters coming back (this was channel 20 a LONG time ago) and now KMUV which was channel 31's original call letters from 1974-1981.

KXTV usually doesn't come in on my indoor antenna unless I move it around specifically to try and get it, but has been coming in steadily the past week or so. (Their 2nd channel is still improperly flagged to stretch.) Channel 29 has not been coming in when it usually did before, but there's nothing watchable on any of their channels anyways.

Channel 29 has not been coming in when it usually did before, but there's nothing watchable on any of their channels anyways.

I've noticed that the SNR for KSPX has been down for about a week now. I thought it might be something specific to my location or maybe the inversions we've been having lately. The real signal strength looks okay so I don't know if it is their problem or my problem.

Chuck

Signals have been going up and down like crazy these past few days. I've seen as much as a 12 dB change in signal strength on some of the stations from Walnut Grove. Earlier this evening I added a new station to my list. For the first time ever I received KTFK 64 and it had a signal of 18 dB!

Larry
SF

Signals have been going up and down like crazy these past few days.

It most certainly has been crazy the last few days! Signals have been having huge swings at all times of the day and night, more than what I saw for the entire Fall combined. It's fun from a DXing standpoint but it wreaks havoc with trying to watch programs.

Chuck

KMAX is nearly 100%. KQCA is not as good with frequent drop outs.

I expect the new ch-43s will knock out ch 60 which is in about 40% of the time.

I receive two KTFKs -1 and -2 and they always have different signal strengths. -2 is solid here and -1 comes and goes.

I receive two KTFKs -1 and -2 and they always have different signal strengths. -2 is solid here and -1 comes and goes.

There's something tricky going on here. :) KTFK and KUVS are carrying the SD version of each other's programming on their -2 sub channel.

Virtual 64-1 is RF 26 (KTFK).
Virtual 64-2 is RF 18 (KUVS).
Virtual 19-1 is RF 18 (KUVS).
Virtual 19-2 is RF 26 (KTFK).

This is why you're seeing different signal strengths. Looks like you receive KUVS fine and are having problems with KTFK.

Chuck

Hi,

I'm a recent cord cutter experiencing a few hiccups with my OTA reception. I live in Folsom, and am experiencing some dropouts on Fox40 (KTXL) and PBS (KVIE). All the stations I am looking to receive are within 199-202 degrees and 33-36 miles. I don't care about any stations outside the ones in Walnut Grove.

I mounted my small antenna (RCA ANT751R) as high (14 ft) as I was comfortable doing on my WSW facing wall. The neighbor's house is not in the direct path of the antenna, but very close. There are tall trees and two story houses across the street (70ft) in the path of the antenna.

I am considering hiring an installer to mount the antenna on a mast on the top of my roof or chimney. This would give the antenna a much more unobstructed view at around 30ft or so. Should I also get a bigger directional UHV/VHF (7-69) at the same time? I don't want to pay someone to mount my small antenna higher, then have it not be sufficient.

Anybody have any good installer recommendations in this area?

(I am using a HD Homerun DUAL tuner and Windows Media Center)

Adding transmitter profile for KTXL

I mounted my small antenna (RCA ANT751R) as high (14 ft) as I was comfortable doing on my WSW facing wall. The neighbor's house is not in the direct path of the antenna, but very close. There are tall trees and two story houses across the street (70ft) in the path of the antenna.

I am considering hiring an installer to mount the antenna on a mast on the top of my roof or chimney. This would give the antenna a much more unobstructed view at around 30ft or so. Should I also get a bigger directional UHV/VHF (7-69) at the same time? I don't want to pay someone to mount my small antenna higher, then have it not be sufficient.

The signals are so strong where you are that in theory any antenna should work. But you may be having some multipath issues because of ground clutter. It's likely you'll see an improvement with a higher antenna.

I always recommend a larger antenna if someone is willing to install it. I think the Winegard HD-7694P or HD-7695P would be good choices for you.

I don't know installers in the Sacramento area.

Chuck

I checked out the specs on the antenna you have and looked at your signal strengths and I think that if you install that antenna higher up it should work fine for you.

However, I agree with Calaveras. If you want to make sure you have some extra signal available to allow for condition changes, I'd go with a larger antenna with more gain mounted up high on your roof. His recommendation of the Winegard HD-769x is a good one. Lots of people have had very good luck with that antenna.

Larry
SF

Thanks, the Winegard HD-7694P doesn't seem too large for my wife's tastes. I think I'll have an installer put that one up.

Hopefully this week because I got in trouble for the Packers/49ers game cutting out :-)

It's been difficult to find an installer, but in the meantime I temporarily moved the antenna from the outside to the attic where it is a bit higher. KTXL is coming in great now, KVIE could be a bit worse. KXTV is now on the borderline, but seems good enough.

I can't find a location where all stations come in good. Guess the rooftop is still the way to go.

It's been difficult to find an installer, but in the meantime I temporarily moved the antenna from the outside to the attic where it is a bit higher. KTXL is coming in great now, KVIE could be a bit worse. KXTV is now on the borderline, but seems good enough.

I can't find a location where all stations come in good. Guess the rooftop is still the way to go.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Have you thought about adding a second antenna (and a combiner) ?

I think Solid Signal sells them.

I don't think it makes sense for me as all my stations broadcast from the same location. I think I just need to get my antenna up above the ground clutter as mentioned above.

It's been difficult to find an installer, but in the meantime I temporarily moved the antenna from the outside to the attic where it is a bit higher. KTXL is coming in great now, KVIE could be a bit worse. KXTV is now on the borderline, but seems good enough.

I can't find a location where all stations come in good. Guess the rooftop is still the way to go.

Although you can find many people successfully using attic antennas, an outdoor antenna will almost always be better.

Decades ago my parents moved to a home in Anaheim that came with an attic antenna. The reception was not so good. I installed an outdoor Winegard for them and reception improved dramatically.

There seems to be a perception with DTV that because it is digital that you should be able to use a much smaller antenna than before. This is not true. The fundamentals of reception are the same as they've always been. Whatever antenna it took to get a strong ghost-free analog picture is the same one it takes to get DTV without dropouts. The only advantage analog had was that you could get a crummy picture with a poor antenna. Now with that setup, you get no picture. Now when the minimum signal requirements are met, you get a perfect picture. There is no option to accept a poor picture. That was the tradeoff going to digital.

Chuck

Has anyone that watches KXTV been hearing echos on a number of shows?
Both PAN AM and Castle seem to play like they are in an echo chamber. Haven't
noticed or heard any issues with other ABC shows.

There's been reports for a long time of audio channel problems on KXTV. Castle is most frequently mentioned. I have not noticed recently because I only have a 2 channel system. There were times in the past when there were no voices.

Chuck

Castle seems to be about the only ABC show I watch. And yes, there are definite audio problems, whether OTA, SAT, or Cable. It's been quite a while since the time the voices were missing completely, but there's always a balance problem, with the side or surround channels almost drowning out the main center voice channel.

I watched Castle last Monday and did not hear any audio problems OTA. KXTV passes what the network sends for Castle just like all ABC shows. I have heard some strange echos during Castle a few times in the past. There was a problem with the audio on Castle that was caused by KXTV quite some time ago. I was told that a button got pushed on the air switcher that killed the center channel audio which had no effect until a 5.1 channel program hit the air at which point it took the air operator a while to figure out what the problem was.

Rory it isn't the typical lost LFE channel which is immediately identifiable. Rather there are times, often in an indoor setting, where the background chatter starts to vigorously compete with the center channel dialog being spoken by the main characters. At least that is my take on the situation.

One question would be does this only happen in programs that have real 5.1 audio? There is equipment in the signal path that does something similar to pro-logic to make fake 5.1 from stereo sources. That is only supposed to happen if the program is stereo. Maybe it is doing its thing occasionally when it should not? The master control operators have no way to affect any of this. They do not even have any audio level controls. Because of all the complaints about loud commercials and recent government action there is now also a box that does automatic level control down stream of the air switcher.

I was referring to ABC network dramas, many of which are in the 10:00-11:00PM slot that all light up as Dolby 5.1 audio. Castle and Detroit 1-8-7 come to mind where the squad room or crime scene background chatter will sometimes overpower the foreground characters dialog.

Sadly we have lost the last analog station that had a decent signal- channel 23 went digital on Thursday (they mostly run the Home Shopping Network except for one hour of Spanish news late Saturday nights probably as an FCC requirement; they're owned by the same company that owns channels 19 and 64.) Now the only analog stations that come in on my TV are 15, which barely registers a signal, and 45 which is semi-legible. I guess I soon will have to resort hooking a VCR's RF output up should I want to partake in any analog goodness now.

Aha! That's why KMUV analog 23 Salinas has been interference free here for a couple of days. I never knew it could look so good. I can barely detect KEZT on 23, way too weak to receive here. I'll have to check KRCB more often to see if less interference means more reception.

I wonder if this means KEXT 27 is about to go digital? It's the last really strong analog station here. It's owned by the same people as KEZT and applied for a digital permit on the same day back in 2008.

From my point of view it's time for all these analog LPs to either convert or sign off. I can receive ranging from very weak to very strong; 2, 14, 15, 23, 27, 33 (when it's on), 34, 43 (might be off), 45, and 49.

Chuck

From my point of view it's time for all these analog LPs to either convert or sign off. I can receive ranging from very weak to very strong; 2, 14, 15, 23, 27, 33 (when it's on), 34, 43 (might be off), 45, and 49.
Chuck

I'm surprised that there are still that many analog stations on the air! Here in San Francisco we no longer receive any analog stations. KMMC 40 was our last analog station and it went digital a few months ago.

Where are all of these analog stations located? Most of the channels you listed have digital stations on the air here in the Bay Area: 14, 23, 27, 33, 34, 43, 45 and 49.

It is my understanding that all analog stations have to switch to digital or go off the air by the end of this year. Is that still true?

Larry
SF

September 1, 2015 is the deadline for low-power stations.

- Trip

Where are all of these analog stations located?

2 - KOTR Mt. Toro
14 - KAZV Mt. OSO
15 - K15CU Fremont Peak
23 - KMUV Fremont Peak
27 - KEXT Mt. Oso
29 - K29AB Fremont Peak
33 - KDJT Fremont Peak
34 - KACA Modesto
43 - KMCE Fremont Peak (also now K46LG-D)
45 - K45HC Walnut Grove
49 - K49EO Modesto

Try using the FCC TV Query for LP analogs. There must be hundreds of them in Northern California alone. I'm betting a lot of them will go off the air by Sept. 1, 2015.

KEXT is a real waste of spectrum. It broadcasts Telefutura but KTFK carries Telefutura as its main channel and KUVS carries it as its sub channel. Those two full power stations almost completely duplicate the KEXT service contour.

Chuck

September 1, 2015 is the deadline for low-power stations.
- Trip
Wow! I sure was way off on my thinking it was the end of this year.

Thanks, Trip.

Larry
SF

Anyone in the Sacto area not getting 10-1 either? All my other channels are good. KVIE (6) is sometimes spotty but watchable. I lost my signal a few days ago.

I'm using a Winegard HD7694P and everything still is in place outside.

No problem here with KXTV or KVIE.

Chuck

Both KVIE 6 and KXTV 10 are coming in fine here in San Francisco.

Conditions have been rather good the last few days and the signal strength has been above average on all of the stations from Walnut Grove.

Larry
SF

Anyone in the Sacto area not getting 10-1 either? All my other channels are good. KVIE (6) is sometimes spotty but watchable. I lost my signal a few days ago.

I'm using a Winegard HD7694P and everything still is in place outside.

UPDATE

So I tested my antenna signal using my laptop's OTA tuner and I'm receiving ALL signals again, even KPIX in SF. KXTV is 100%.

So do you guys think the problem lies with my HDTV's (bought 2011) built in tuner?

UPDATE

So I tested my antenna signal using my laptop's OTA tuner and I'm receiving ALL signals again, even KPIX in SF. KXTV is 100%.

So do you guys think the problem lies with my HDTV's (bought 2011) built in tuner?

So you took the cable off the TV and connected it to you laptop tuner with no other changes? If that's the case then it must be the TV.

Did you try doing a rescan from scratch on the TV?

Chuck

So you took the cable off the TV and connected it to you laptop tuner with no other changes? If that's the case then it must be the TV.

Did you try doing a rescan from scratch on the TV?

Chuck

Thanks Chuck!

I actually figured out the real problem. (I must first admit that I connected the laptop tuner directly to the first, outdoor wire leading from the antenna -- not from the living wall's outlet where the TV usually connects).

The problem was that I found the winegard PS-1503, which is a pre-amp power supply, was fried/melted. I installed this at the end of main coax line where it inputs into a master panel, where it then splits the signal to all the rooms.

So my antenna's fine and the signal is consistently high quality again. And I'm LUCKY a fire didn't start.

As of yesterday, KCSO-3 (33-3) is active with Country Network. 24/7 country music channel.

Thanks for the info, Bookcollector. I used the information to update my DTV channel lists.

Larry
SF

KMAX is on the back-up transmitter this morning in case anyone is having reception problems.

Chuck

Hello

This is my first post on the forum. I appreciate all the good information available here!

I am ready to part ways with my sattelite provider. I live off of Baseline Road about seven miles west of Roseville.

I did a little experimenting with rabit ears at my brothers house and found that I could receive a few channels, but not several that are important to me.

I want to receive:

33-2 KCSO METV
33-3 Country (KCSO)
3 KCRA and subchannels
6 KVIE

On the broadcast maps, it says I should receive KCSO, but it doesn't specify about the substation for METV. Does anyone in the area receive this channel?

Will I have trouble receiving the other channels I hope to have?

What outdoor antenna and receiver should I get to maximize long distance reception?

I live in a flat area without obstuctions for about a mile to the south (few small trees, no houses).

Thanks in advance for any assistance you can provide!

Glenn

Will I have trouble receiving the other channels I hope to have?

What outdoor antenna and receiver should I get to maximize long distance reception?

I live in a flat area without obstuctions for about a mile to the south (few small trees, no houses).

I looked at your area in Google Earth with the transmitter signal strength overlays from TV Fool. All the Walnut Grove stations are very strong and should be very easy to receive with an antenna like this:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=HD7696P&d=Winegard-HD-7696P-High-Definition-VHF%2FUHF-HD7696-Series-TV-Antenna-(HD7696P)

I receive KCSO and it has the sub channels you list. KCSO is a special case. It is on channel 3, low VHF, where KCRA was forever. It transmits from Angels Camp on an almost 3000' mountain. In order to receive that, you'll need an antenna with low VHF. Something like this should do it:

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?p=CM-3679&d=Channel-Master-CM3679-Deep-Fringe-Crossfire-Series-TV-Antenna-(CM-3679)

I didn't check yet how different the heading to KCSO is from all the other stations but you may be able to receive KCSO without turning the antenna. Those antennas have very broad beam widths on low VHF which would work to your advantage.

You do not need a preamp and in fact shouldn't even try one with such strong signals from Walnut Grove.

Chuck

Edit: Here's the TVFool report for your location.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d0b86f9de774d4c

KCSO is about 25 degree east of Walnut Grove but you should still be able to receive it. It's plenty strong. I see you might be able to receive the Chico stations if you turned your antenna around.

Thank you Chuck!

I still have a couple of questions...

I notice that KCSO broadcasts at what seems like a very low power (3kw), especially for a transmitter that is about 55 miles away from me.

Is that normal? It seems that most other stations broadcast at a higher watt level.

Thanks for directing me to the Solid Signal site. The 3679 is rated for 50 miles VHF and 60 miles UHF. If I went with the deepest fringe model CM3671, would there be any down side, such as problems receiving closer channels or bleed over?

Thank you again for helping me to learn this subject!

Thank you Chuck!

I still have a couple of questions...

I notice that KCSO broadcasts at what seems like a very low power (3kw), especially for a transmitter that is about 55 miles away from me.

Is that normal? It seems that most other stations broadcast at a higher watt level.

Thanks for directing me to the Solid Signal site. The 3679 is rated for 50 miles VHF and 60 miles UHF. If I went with the deepest fringe model CM3671, would there be any down side, such as problems receiving closer channels or bleed over?

Thank you again for helping me to learn this subject!

Your welcome Glenn. Bigger is better so the CM3671 is good.

KCSO is a low power station so they're limited to less power by the FCC. Low VHF requires less power than high VHF. You'll see that KVIE is 33KW compared to say KOVR on UHF that is 1000KW. With equal antennas, they produce about the same signal strength. Low VHF (channels 2-6) require even less power for an equal signal. Low power VHF stations are often only 0.3KW. KCSO received special permission from the FCC to up their power to 3KW because they had a lot of initial complaints from viewers who could no longer receive them (probably people with indoor antennas or no low VHF antenna) when they switched from channel 33 to channel 3. So 3KW is actually exceptionally high power for a low VHF low power station.

The problem with low VHF digital is that it's subject to manmade noise, like power line noise. Those annoying sparkles you used to see on low VHF analog stations are deadly to digital stations. With line-of-sight to KCSO and a good outdoor antenna, you should be able to receive them unless you have a bad case of power line noise. Lightning noise is also a big problem on low VHF but not so much in Sacramento.

I've attached a screen capture from Google Earth centered on about where you said you are with the KCSO transmitter overlay. As long as you're in the cyan area and not one of those blue areas, you should be okay. The blue areas indicate terrain shadowing.

If you put up this antenna and receive everything except KCSO, then come back and we'll see what the next step is.

If you take those rabbit ears, extend them to 88" across, and place them outdoors with a clear view to the southeast, you should have a reasonable chance to check your KCSO reception.

Chuck

Your welcome Glenn. Bigger is better so the CM3671 is good.

KCSO is a low power station so they're limited to less power by the FCC. Low VHF requires less power than high VHF. You'll see that KVIE is 33KW compared to say KOVR on UHF that is 1000KW. With equal antennas, they produce about the same signal strength. Low VHF (channels 2-6) require even less power for an equal signal. Low power VHF stations are often only 0.3KW. KCSO received special permission from the FCC to up their power to 3KW because they had a lot of initial complaints from viewers who could no longer receive them (probably people with indoor antennas or no low VHF antenna) when they switched from channel 33 to channel 3. So 3KW is actually exceptionally high power for a low VHF low power station.

The problem with low VHF digital is that it's subject to manmade noise, like power line noise. Those annoying sparkles you used to see on low VHF analog stations are deadly to digital stations. With line-of-sight to KCSO and a good outdoor antenna, you should be able to receive them unless you have a bad case of power line noise. Lightning noise is also a big problem on low VHF but not so much in Sacramento.

I've attached a screen capture from Google Earth centered on about where you said you are with the KCSO transmitter overlay. As long as you're in the cyan area and not one of those blue areas, you should be okay. The blue areas indicate terrain shadowing.

If you put up this antenna and receive everything except KCSO, then come back and we'll see what the next step is.

If you take those rabbit ears, extend them to 88" across, and place them outdoors with a clear view to the southeast, you should have a reasonable chance to check your KCSO reception.

Chuck

Thanks that's great information!

I do have giant power lines about 1/2 --1 mile from my house that run diagonally between my place and the transmitter. It sounds like the power lines will be my only concern.

I hope it works.

Thanks that's great information!

I do have giant power lines about 1/2 --1 mile from my house that run diagonally between my place and the transmitter. It sounds like the power lines will be my only concern.

I hope it works.

Oh yeah. I can see them easily on Google Earth, 2 sets of 4 wires. Those are at least 115 KV and as high as 500 KV. Hard to say if those will be a problem or not. They're certainly not too far away to cause a problem on channel 3. It won't be an issue on UHF and likely not an issue on high VHF.

Chuck

I bought a new led tv today after work and hooked it up to rabbit ears to check the reception (rabbit ears outside the window).

To my surprise, we receive 37 channels, including all major Sacramento channels and substations, a few bay area channels, some weird stuff.

We didn't receive KCSO, but we're not supposed to with rabbit ears.

I also ordered a Winegard 8200 and rotor from the site you recommended. I can't wait to rescan after I set up the antenna.

Funny thing. After I tested the rabbit ear reception, I hooked up to the satellite dish and it seemed like the picture was worse through the satellite.

Thanks for all your help. I'll post up my results when I get the antenna setup in a week or two. It looks like a considerable amount of work.

I bought a new led tv today after work and hooked it up to rabbit ears to check the reception (rabbit ears outside the window).

To my surprise, we receive 37 channels, including all major Sacramento channels and substations, a few bay area channels, some weird stuff.



Wow! You must be in a really good location, Glenn, to receive Bay Area channels with just a "rabbit ears" antenna. I'd be interested in hearing which ones you received up there.

That new antenna should bring in lots of stations. With the rotor you'll be able to get Sacramento/Stockton stations from Walnut Grove, stations from Modesto, the Bay Area, and even Chico and Paradise. You'll get channel 3, too. :)

Let us know how good your new antenna works for you.

Larry
SF

Recent promo on KOVR-DT stated,

"Most stations can get only as close to the news as their vans will allow but with Mobile 13 CBS13 can get you closer than ever...".

What is this technology?

Recent promo on KOVR-DT stated,

"Most stations can get only as close to the news as their vans will allow but with Mobile 13 CBS13 can get you closer than ever...".

What is this technology?

Probably some reporter with a iPhone or similar in his hand.

Probably a system like this:

see www.liveu.tv and www.liveu.tv/technology.html

There are other vendors of similar systems. KXTV has the liveu system.

Recent promo on KOVR-DT stated,

"Most stations can get only as close to the news as their vans will allow but with Mobile 13 CBS13 can get you closer than ever...".

What is this technology?

We use a TVU pack. Google it. We compared with others. This one was by far superior but the technology changes daily. We bought the first one here in this market. Soon you will see all of the local news stations with something similar and most likely multiple units.

Wow! You must be in a really good location, Glenn, to receive Bay Area channels with just a "rabbit ears" antenna. I'd be interested in hearing which ones you received up there.

That new antenna should bring in lots of stations. With the rotor you'll be able to get Sacramento/Stockton stations from Walnut Grove, stations from Modesto, the Bay Area, and even Chico and Paradise. You'll get channel 3, too. :)

Let us know how good your new antenna works for you.

Larry
SF

I re-scanned again tonight without adjusting the rabbit ears and I now have 55 channels, including many SF channels!

And for the first time, I'm receiving METV on 20-2!!! Here is a list of the channels I'm receiving. Very few, marked "intermittent", cut out. I am very pleased and can't wait to run my antenna up on a 25 foot mast.

3-1 KCRA
3-2 More TV
4-1 KRON
4-2 KRON-SD
5-1 KPIX-DT
6-1 KVIE HD
6-2 KVIE 2
6-3 KVIE me
8-1 KBTV CD
8-2 KBTV CD History of Television
8-3 KBTV CD
8-4 KBTV CD
8-5 KBTV CD
8-6 KBTV CD
9-1 KQED (intermittent)
9-2 KQEH-DT (intermittent)
9-3 World (intermittent)
10-1 KXTV-DT
10-2 Live Well
13-1 KOVR-DT
15 ? (no station ID)
19-1 KUVS-DT
19-2 KUVS-DT
20-1 KOFY-HD
20-2 METV
20-5 KOFY-HD (mode not supported)
22 (analog)
23-1 KEZT-CD
28-1 ? tr3s
28-2 (Voice w/ phone number only-shopping)
29-1 ION
29-2 QUBO
29-3 ION Life
31-1 KMAX -DT
32-2 World Ch (intermittent)
32-4 WTV
32-5 NTD
38-1 KCNS RTV
38-2 KCNS-2
38-3 KCNS-4
40-1 KXTL-TV
40-2 Ant TV
42-1 KTNC-SF
42-1 KMSX-LD
42-2 KNTC-SA
42-2 KMSX-LD
42-3 KNTC-Th
42-3 KMSX--LD
42-4 KTNC-Br
42-4 KMSX-LD
50-1 KFTYDT
58-1 KQCA
58-2 This TV
64-1 KTFK-DT
64-2 KTFK2

We use a TVU pack. Google it. We compared with others. This one was by far superior but the technology changes daily. We bought the first one here in this market. Soon you will see all of the local news stations with something similar and most likely multiple units.

Can I have your old one when you upgrade?

Heh heh

15 ? (no station ID)

Should be KBSV on Mt. Oso. Language is Armenian.

19-1 KUVS-DT
19-2 KUVS-DT

Same transmitter site as KCSO so if that's coming in good then KCSO should too.

28-1 ? tr3s

Yes.

28-2 (Voice w/ phone number only-shopping)

There shouldn't be a 28-2. I don't know what's up with that.

Chuck

I sometimes get the physical channels for stations appearing in the scan (like channel 46 for 58) and they come up with sound from the station but no picture.

Thanks for the tip on channel 8 adding 2 more channels- now their stuff can be even more overcompressed. They've added this "health and wellness" thing called Telos on 8-4 which has an extremely annoying bug, the infomercials have moved to 8-5 (again, I've NEVER seen a legal station ID shown here, and I'm not sure if the FCC even allows running 100% advertising, but it's fun to check out when I'm bored) and once again I have color bars with silence on 8-6 which will be my default channel setting now until whatever comes along to take that over. Their international stuff on the first channel is interesting but they've had sound coming only out of the right for a few weeks. I was very surprised to see Jimmy Swaggart has his own network which they're carrying 24/7 on 8-3. I used to watch his shows in the 80s for laughs, and thought he was gone for good after getting caught with a hooker (I still have a tape somewhere of the show featuring his tearful confession!) but I guess enough people have forgiven him. Looks like this channel should be in 16x9 as I've seen text cropped out, and again there's way too much compression on all these channels to watch them for too long.

Recently found out the transmitter for channels 8 and 23 is right down the street from me, so don't know why the 8's drop out sometimes. They don't seem to really know what they're doing, but that's part of their charm in a way. Channel 23 (Home Shopping Network) is the best-looking digital standard-def channel I've seen, no noticeable compression on that. (I still lament the loss of their analog station which was the last one with a decent signal.)

I know there is home shopping on KFTL-CD 28-2, that could be it. But in that case, one would expect 28-1 to be religious.

- Trip

Recently found out the transmitter for channels 8 and 23 is right down the street from me, so don't know why the 8's drop out sometimes. They don't seem to really know what they're doing, but that's part of their charm in a way. Channel 23 (Home Shopping Network) is the best-looking digital standard-def channel I've seen, no noticeable compression on that. (I still lament the loss of their analog station which was the last one with a decent signal.)

I suspect some of these LP stations don't monitor what they're putting out on the air. I've seen macro blocking on KLFB for some time now and I've even seen a message on their transmission saying the "Signal is Weak" when the SNR is 25 dB. Eventually they'll fix it.

Chuck

Some of these stations get stuff directly off consumer satellite systems too, which makes for some amusing results. There used to be an analog channel 47 here (which went off the air before the digital switchover, I think they ran out of money) that carried a religious network, and sometimes it would go to a Dish Network "No Signal" screen for several days. I thought it'd be funny if it accidentally got switched to a different, completely inappropriate channel or something.

I've been using one of these for around 2 months now. In one very difficult room, I thought it might help for Fox 40. In addition to getting 40, it also brought in channel 10. In the same room, rabbit ears, a classic bowtie, a Mant 510, a freevision FV30, and a Silver Sensor failed to lock either VHF station.

We've had a couple of folks with VHF difficulties indoors. Provided you can return it, this is one to give a shot.

I also tried the RS budget with and without the rabbit ears.

Anyone having a problem with KQCA 58-1? I do not get a picture at all, no sound, nothing, just "searching for signal." All the other Sac channels are OK.http://www.1000seotips.com/huang3.jpg
http://www.1000seotips.com/huang2.jpg
http://www.1000seotips.com/huang4.jpg

58-1 seems normal here.

8traxrule...

Thanks for the info on channel 8, KBTV. From what you've reported they now have 6 sub-channels. Please confirm the following so that I can update my DTV channel lists:
8-1 Various Ethnic Programming
8-2 HOT - History of TV <-- You didn't mention this but this is what I have listed now
8-3 Jimmy Swaggart Network
8-4 Telos - Health and Wellness
8-5 Infomercials (24/7 ??)
8-6 Color bars, no sound

I had Boraq Net listed for 8-4. Is that gone now?

Thanks for the help.

Larry
SF

I re-scanned again tonight without adjusting the rabbit ears and I now have 55 channels, including many SF channels!

And for the first time, I'm receiving METV on 20-2!!! Here is a list of the channels I'm receiving. Very few, marked "intermittent", cut out. I am very pleased and can't wait to run my antenna up on a 25 foot mast.

That is amazing reception for rabbit ears and FM loop! When you get your outdoor antenna up you're going to be able receive even more, of course. I'm anxious to see what you get. Let us know!

You listed two channel 42's each with four sub-channels. KTNC, transmitting from Mt. Diablo, I'm familiar with. For the past couple of days they've dropped the "This" movies on 42-3... I'm getting nothing on that channel now... and 42-4 that had the color bars has disappeared.

I only have one channel listed in my channel lists for KMSX and for that I have "Religion" shown. Would you please tell me what's on -2, -3 and -4 so that I can update my list. If 42-1 isn't religion, please update me on that too.

Thanks!

Larry
SF

That's right- if you want to be exact, Jimmy Swaggart's network is called the Sonlife Broadcasting Network and I think the main channel is still called "Crossings TV". Seems like each time they add a new channel, the infomercial network gets bumped to the last channel- it seems to be coming from some national feed but again never IDs itself and shows the same 2 commercials in between the infomercials. Wonder how many people tune into that on purpose? Before the extra 2 channels went on, 8-4 was showing the video from that with audio from the Telos channel for a couple days. "TV Hot" seems to have started running infomercials all night too- odd since I suspected that RTV had been dumped because they already ran a lot of infomercials. No big deal since they both have an annoying bug; "TV Hot" seems to mostly show stuff that's in the public domain while RTV had much better shows I would have watched if they had been bug-free. 8-1 used to show infomercials in the overnight hours, but after they added the all-infomercials channel they've switched to something called The Liquidation Channel which always seems to be selling cheap jewelry.

Before they picked up Jimmy Swaggart on 8-3, they were running still pictures from a computer with an announcement saying "Boraq Broadcasting Network coming soon" but guess that didn't get off the ground or Jimmy offered the station more money to put his network on instead. I'm still amazed to see him back on TV at all, let alone getting an entire channel 24/7! (Too bad Dr. Gene Scott is dead, he used to own channel 38 in San Francisco and he was on that 24/7. He would yell at the cameras if not enough viewers were sending in money.)

Speaking of channel 42, their analog station was one of the farthest-reaching in the state (though they never ponied up for a stereo signal!) I take it their digital signal isn't as powerful as I can't pick it up now with my indoor antenna, though my friend with a roof antenna can.

And one last thing- what's the maximum number of sub-channels that's either allowed or the standard is capable of having? I've seen unacceptable amounts of compression on HD stations with NO subchannels (13 and 31), channel 8 has always looked awful with 4 and having 6 and counting should result in even more compression loveliness.

Thanks for the confirmation, 8traxrule, on the channel 8 programming. I'll use it to update my channel lists.

As for how many sub-channels a station can have, I don't know if there is a limit. KKPX 65 (RF 41) has sub-channels 1, 2, 3, 100, 200 and 300, although there's no programming on the last three. (They're using them for testing mobile TV, I understand.)

KAXT channel 1 (RF 42, a low power station on Mt. Allison in the South Bay) has 20! 1 through 12 are video and audio and 13 through 20 are audio only. I've been surprised by the video quality they send out. Some of the channels look really good while others look like VHS video tape.

Larry
SF

Larry:

As of this time in Fair Oaks I am getting This Bay Area on 42-3 and color bars on 42-4. I am also getting a channel 38-1 K04QR-D which is broadcasting an infomercial at this time. This channel has no other subchannels. I do not see this 38-1 on your list. In addition I am getting a 49-5 KSAO and 49-6 AVIVA both transmitting color bars with a "THIS CHANNEL FOR LEASE 559-435-7000" and 'COCOLA BROADCASTING COMPANIES" super over it.

Thanks for the info, Rory. I didn't know about K04QR-D and have added it to my lists. I do have KSAO listed. Checking the FCC files, K04QR-D, virtual 38, is licensed to Esparto, transmitting on channel 4 with 300 watts. KSAO is licensed to Sacramento and transmits on channel 49 with 10.3 kW. Both K04QR and KSAO are transmitting from the same location, a site just north of Highway 50 between East Bidwell Street and Empire Ranch Road, southeast of Folsom. K04QR has a directional pattern toward the northwest and KSAO's signal is directed west. Neither station has any signal going to the east.

K04QR-D has applications on file for 5 kW on channel 16 and 1 kW on channel 19 and KSAO has an application on file for 15 kW ERP on channel 49, all from the same location.

If you find that K04QR transmits something other than infomercials, please let me know.

Larry
SF

Edit: Added info. I had no idea where Esparto was located, so did some checking. It's a small town on Highway 16 west of I-505. K04QR's signal does NOT reach that far. From what I've been told, low power stations don't have to cover their city of license and this one sure doesn't.

The channel 16 application was dismissed. The 19 remains pending, but I suspect will also be dismissed because it's an invalid displacement.

- Trip

Bob,

What's up with the commercial interruptions during the middle of scenes? Happened twice during Blue Bloods and happened last weekend during Good Wife? Missed some critical parts of the scenes.

S~

During Blue Bloods, at the mid-point, there was a long stretch of dead air (black screen). Later when those two obvious commercial inserts began my thinking was someone was trying to make up for the previous "lost" commercials. Agree it was very badly handled.

With the help of my brother, I hooked up my antenna (Winegard HD8200U). We used a 1.5 inch recycled water pipe. My brother fabricated super heavy duty mounts. One had an anchor that we cemented in the ground and the other is lag bolted into the 2 x 8 fascia and stud. The antenna is mounted at about 23'.

I receive METV (KCSO) with perfect reception (about 55 signal strength). Its been raining every day since I installed the antenna. Before it started raining, I could receive many Chico, bay area and even a couple of Reno/Truckee channels. I get excellent reception on all the local channels.

Is it normal to lose the extreme distance channels in the rain?

Thanks for all the advice you provided!

Is it normal to lose the extreme distance channels in the rain?

It's the old temperature inversion thing. During periods of fair weather temperature inversions often form over the valley and bend the signals a little more than usual, especially at night and in the morning. This extends their range. Sometimes inversions set up in such a way as to bend signals away from you and you can lose stations at times that you normally receive. That shouldn't happen with any station from Walnut Grove for you.

Storms mostly wipe out temperature inversions and much of the signal bending disappears. I call this situation "nominal" conditions, no signal enhancement or degradation and is a good time to check what you can receive. Consider any stations you receive under better conditions to be a bonus.

On my TV a reading of 55 would be a very poor signal but your meter must be calibrated differently if KCSO is solid for you.

Glad it all worked out.

Chuck

Mohu Leaf
I've been using one of these for around 2 months now. In one very difficult room, I thought it might help for Fox 40. In addition to getting 40, it also brought in channel 10. In the same room, rabbit ears, a classic bowtie, a Mant 510, a freevision FV30, and a Silver Sensor failed to lock either VHF station.

We've had a couple of folks with VHF difficulties indoors. Provided you can return it, this is one to give a shot.

I also tried the RS budget with and without the rabbit ears.So, is a consensus forming that the Mohu Leaf, in spite of looking unimpressive, actually is really good? All the naysayers haven't tried it, and people who've tried it seem impressed.

Living in Morada, it's so close to Walnut Creek that I've been using a Cornet F-645 and been very happy with the results, but if the Mohu Leaf would cut down on some of the drop-outs on windy days, I'd give it a try. The price is right, that's for sure.

So, is a consensus forming that the Mohu Leaf, in spite of looking unimpressive, actually is really good? All the naysayers haven't tried it, and people who've tried it seem impressed.

Living in Morada, it's so close to Walnut Creek that I've been using a Cornet F-645 and been very happy with the results, but if the Mohu Leaf would cut down on some of the drop-outs on windy days, I'd give it a try. The price is right, that's for sure.

The consensus for omni antennas is that they are usually bad. However, for persons who don't have a need for gain from an antenna, they may actually work. The Leaf doesn't have unshielded twin-lead or rabbit ears which may account for it getting vhf where other antennas don't. I have had some decent results for uhf during wind here also.

As always, indoor antenna reception is a participation sport. Aiming and repositioning the antenna is needed for best performance. My experience with the Leaf has been favorable so far.

A few comments not aimed at anyone in particular......

I have been involved with ham radio and TV antennas for over 40 years and I've found that the search for the "Magic Antenna" never ends. The Magic Antenna is that antenna that is smaller and mounted lower but performs as well as older, larger and higher antennas. Every new design that comes along making amazing claims becomes a candidate for the Magic Antenna. The more obscure the design the better. Some of them become popular, even attract a cult-like following, but eventually reality sets in that smaller and lower really isn't better, they lose their appeal and are forgotten. Sometimes they are rediscovered by a future generation and live to enjoy another round in the limelight as the Magic Antenna.

When the latest Magic Antenna surfaces I always ask myself, "If it's so good, why is not everyone using it?" Invariably the answer is that it's not so good.

I believe that because of the revolution in electronic miniaturization, people believe that there should be an equal revolution in antenna miniaturization. This is supported in average the consumer's mind by the incorporation of antennas inside of cell phones and other portable devices. What's not fully appreciated is that these systems are designed to work with the rather poor antennas contained in these devices, not due to a revolution in antenna miniaturization.

DTV broadcasting is designed to work with a moderate sized antenna mounted outdoors at 30'. It is not designed to work with some miniature antenna sitting next to your TV. If that works for some, it is happenstance and cannot be expected to work in the general case.

In Post #2 of the AVS Official Antenna and Hardware Related Topic Ken H makes a post that pretty much sums it up:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=3552826#post3552826

and with which I agree 100%.

Consider yourself lucky if you fall into the 0.56% and not because you've found the Magic Antenna.

Chuck

My "Magic Antenna" was recalled :(

www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml73/73015.html

Tonight and last night, the Fox40 10 o'clock news has been showing people who are Direct TV customers that over the air reception is possible. They have shown the antenna input on the back of a HD television. The antenna that they tested and "works like a champ" is a $8 monopole. They didn't identify the brand. If you're near Fruitridge, this may be worth a try.

I can think of another antenna for half that price.

Tonight and last night, the Fox40 10 o'clock news has been showing people who are Direct TV customers that over the air reception is possible. They have shown the antenna input on the back of a HD television. The antenna that they tested and "works like a champ" is a $8 monopole. They didn't identify the brand. If you're near Fruitridge, this may be worth a try.

I can think of another antenna for half that price.

This morning, of course, Fox 40 was blacked out on Direct. I can still receive OTA through my Direct box, but only usually only use it for the sub-channels that Direct does not carry. Programmed 40-1 into the lineup and it looks as good as ever.

I wonder about Fox 40 showing Direct customers how to receive OTA signals. If they can see the news, they already have the OTA signal. If not, unless the viewer is getting the signal beamed into his head, he'll never know.

Putting broadcast stations on DirecTV is such a waste of bandwidth since their 'exclusive' channels are already overcompressed. If I had it I'd have no problem switching to my TV tuner to watch local stations- is the average cable/satellite user really so dense that they don't know how to use an over-the-air antenna? (KTXL's transmitter of course is in Walnut Grove so that's where their signal comes from, their operations are on Fruitridge but being near there will not have any bearing on your reception.)

This morning, of course, Fox 40 was blacked out on Direct. I can still receive OTA through my Direct box, but only usually only use it for the sub-channels that Direct does not carry. Programmed 40-1 into the lineup and it looks as good as ever.

I wonder about Fox 40 showing Direct customers how to receive OTA signals. If they can see the news, they already have the OTA signal. If not, unless the viewer is getting the signal beamed into his head, he'll never know.

Persons without an OTA antenna could see the Fox 40 news on Direct last night. They can't tonight. There's certainly no shortage of persons who are not comfortable in their knowledge about OTA reception. Old antennas do work for HD. Old tvs, without a converter of some kind, don't get digital.

It would be interesting to know how many people actually go the trouble of attempting to get OTA reception when stations disappear from satellite. I have feeling, it is a tiny number. Even if they manage to plug an antenna into their TV and get something, they'll likely be miffed that they can't record it on their DVR. Unless they have an HR20, none of the subsequent DirecTV DVRs support OTA unless a separate OTA tuner accessory is purchased and installed. I doubt most DirecTV DVR users even know that exists.

It would be interesting to know how many people actually go the trouble of attempting to get OTA reception when stations disappear from satellite. I have feeling, it is a tiny number. Even if they manage to plug an antenna into their TV and get something, they'll likely be miffed that they can't record it on their DVR. Unless they have an HR20, none of the subsequent DirecTV DVRs support OTA unless a separate OTA tuner accessory is purchased and installed. I doubt most DirecTV DVR users even know that exists.

Having watched HD from nearly the beginning, I replaced my HD Tivo with an HR-20 and added a second about a year after they were released and many of the bugs worked out. When I later added a third box, it was an HR-21, but Direct provided an AM-21 without charge. I'm not sure that they're still so liberal with the OTA tuners, which now can be sought only to receive the sub-channels (those that Direct programs into the box). Direct should be creating awareness of the OTA recording possibilities for its subscribers, but of course, is not.

Persons without an OTA antenna could see the Fox 40 news on Direct last night. They can't tonight. There's certainly no shortage of persons who are not comfortable in their knowledge about OTA reception. Old antennas do work for HD. Old tvs, without a converter of some kind, don't get digital.

I did not realize that the news was still carried on Saturday. Fox 40's information to its viewers was reasonable. I'd also overlooked the fact that many subscribers use the Direct receiver as a digital converter for their analog TVs and no antenna will help them.

I did not realize that the news was still carried on Saturday. Fox 40's information to its viewers was reasonable. I'd also overlooked the fact that many subscribers use the Direct receiver as a digital converter for their analog TVs and no antenna will help them.

The Fox 40 information was correct about digital televisions. All of them have digital tuners. With the right antenna, many Fox 40 viewers can receive digital channels from Walnut Grove, including Fox 40. Plugging an antenna into the rf in/antenna in port is how that process starts.

If a Direct set top box doesn't have a digital tuner, and you are getting service for an analog tv, no antenna will work for OTA.

I'm disappointed that the new Hopper from Dish doesn't have OTA capability yet.

There is a fairly long story in the Bee today about 40 being off DirecTV. The last sentence is as follows:

"Channel 40 programming is still available via cable, Dish Network and over-the-air transmissions with a properly modified antenna"

What it is exactly that must be modified about an antenna to get 40 OTA is not explained.
I would guess that someone told the Bee reporter that and that he has no idea himself.

Maybe a follow up story could be published explaining how to make the modifications.

I saw an announcement about this station being on the air for a couple of weeks now. It's pretty strange for an analog station to show up these days. It's just an excuse to run an FM radio station. It plays music and has a slide show. I'm amazed I can see it at all considering the poor location I have for a station on the Sutter Buttes. Must be strong in Sacramento.

Chuck

For at least the past week, I have been seeing intermittent problem on KOVR. The video goes to horizontal/diagonal lines then goes black with no audio. About 10 seconds later it comes back on and is normal. It has happened at least 3 times that I have recorded during primetime. Once was CSI something, then just tonight it happened at the very beginning of Amazing Race.

Note: These were recorded off Comcast cable KOVR CH713 (I rarely use OTA since getting a 4 tuner Tivo Elite and dumping Dish Network). I posted the problem here because this thread gets way more exposure than the Comcast thread AND this problem ONLY happens on KOVR.

I've been seeing the same problem on KOVR. It happened during my OTA recording of Criminal Minds which I watched last night.

Chuck

The problem with KOVR is still there. This morning has been atrocious. Far too many cut-outs for the shows to be marginally watchable. I'm getting plenty of signal strength, so that isn't the problem. Yet the video/audio are blacking out constantly.

No problem with any channel except 13.

Seems kind of ridiculous that after days of this, KOVR has neither resolved the problem, nor posted anything advising viewers.

Ya. Who's running KOVR now? Where's Bob Hess? He hasn't posted here for six months! Time to call the station? Anyone got his info?

I think Bob is here. He posted on March 5th. I'll bet they know about this problem.

Chuck

Happened again last night during Amazing Race at 7:39. I haven't watched Good Wife or NYC22 yet, so I don't know if it was there, too. Channel 10 was almost unwatchable for a while a few weeks back. Still see some pixelation/brief freezes every once in a while.

S~

I think Bob is here. He posted on March 5th. I'll bet they know about this problem.

Chuck
Yes, I am very much around. I've been out of town for the past week at the National Association of Broadcasters convention. I have an army of engineers here who have kept me in the loop.

We have had multiple issues, unfortunately all happening simultaneously and all unrelated. The Sunday issues were completely unrelated issues involving our studio to transmitter link transmitters, which are about two years old.

In addition, we may have a microwave interference issue which is showing up very intermittently. The STL problems have been fixed.

None of this has affected any of our fiber feeds, such as Comcast, Wave, ATT, or SureWest, but systems receiving us OTA, such as Dish and DTV, have been affected.

I saw some mention of Comcast issues. Nothing that we're aware of. In our infrastructure, Comcast feeds are totally separated from anything else. I've had no complaints from Comcast customers at all other than those customers on a very small system up north that is not on the fiber backbone.

We have spent some time on our backup facility and this, as most of you know, does not have any RF in the SF market.

Bob

Bob,

There was a long black out at the beginning of Supernatural Friday night.

S~

Bob,

There was a long black out at the beginning of Supernatural Friday night.

S~

No issues other than the problem a week ago, Sunday.

A Zenith 901 converter hasn't been able to receive guide info since last weekend.

I've been experiencing poor OTA reception on KOVR 13 for well over a week. Are they having trouble with their transmitter again? Thanks.

No issues other than the problem a week ago, Sunday.

Bob,

There was a long black out at the beginning of Supernatural Friday night.

S~

Happened on this week's NCIS about 11 minutes after top of the hour. Video turns to diagonal multi-colored lines, then diagonal white dashes, then black screen, then back to normal. Only lasts for about 5-7 seconds. Comcast HD CH713.

I've been experiencing poor OTA reception on KOVR 13 for well over a week. Are they having trouble with their transmitter again? Thanks.

We were running at half power yesterday and part of the day before but otherwise no problems. No one should ever be able to tell that we are at half power. That's 500,000 watts!

Bob

Happened on this week's NCIS about 11 minutes after top of the hour. Video turns to diagonal multi-colored lines, then diagonal white dashes, then black screen, then back to normal. Only lasts for about 5-7 seconds. Comcast HD CH713.

Appreciate the specific time and program info, Hammer. We will check the video and stream recordings.

A few ABC prime time shows have been nearly unwatchable the last 3 weeks due to constant picture break-up and audio cut outs. Revenge and Modern Family have been the worst two offenders. Revenge was very difficult to watch this week.

Is there something going on with Channel 10?

I receive my locals through DIRECTV.

DirecTV is having a problem with reception of KXTV at their West Sacramento receive site. This has been an ongoing problem for many weeks. When this first started the DirecTV person responsible for the site said the problem was propagation conditions which we thought was questionable. Now the problem has continued for many more weeks and DirecTV is telling the public that the problem is with KXTV. The station is getting lots of complaints from DirecTV subscribers some of them angry. There is nothing the engineering people at KXTV can do and we were told weeks ago that the problem is being addressed at the corporate level but obviously the problem continues. We certainly hope a solution is found soon.

DirecTV is having a problem with reception of KXTV at their West Sacramento receive site. This has been an ongoing problem for many weeks. When this first started the DirecTV person responsible for the site said the problem was propagation conditions which we thought was questionable. Now the problem has continued for many more weeks and DirecTV is telling the public that the problem is with KXTV. The station is getting lots of complaints from DirecTV subscribers some of them angry. There is nothing the engineering people at KXTV can do and we were told weeks ago that the problem is being addressed at the corporate level but obviously the problem continues. We certainly hope a solution is found soon.

Frankly, this doesn't surprise me at all. Thanks for the response.

DirecTV is having a problem with reception of KXTV at their West Sacramento receive site. This has been an ongoing problem for many weeks. When this first started the DirecTV person responsible for the site said the problem was propagation conditions which we thought was questionable. Now the problem has continued for many more weeks and DirecTV is telling the public that the problem is with KXTV. The station is getting lots of complaints from DirecTV subscribers some of them angry. There is nothing the engineering people at KXTV can do and we were told weeks ago that the problem is being addressed at the corporate level but obviously the problem continues. We certainly hope a solution is found soon.

Maybe it is related to VHF. I see the same problems on KVIE.

I found out today that a fiber connection to get the KXTV digital signal to Directv is going to be installed. It is supposed to be done in a couple of weeks. There was a fiber connection to get the KXTV analog signal to Directv for years paid for by them because of interference problems with analog channel 10 at their receive site. The equipment was removed after the analog signal no longer existed.

I found out today that a fiber connection to get the KXTV digital signal to Directv is going to be installed. It is supposed to be done in a couple of weeks. There was a fiber connection to get the KXTV analog signal to Directv for years paid for by them because of interference problems with analog channel 10 at their receive site. The equipment was removed after the analog signal no longer existed.

Thanks, Rory. That's great news.

Too bad they aren't doing this before the season finales this week.