Hey Bob...

Been off the forum for awhile just enjoying my set... thought I'd drop in.

Is it possible to physically disable SVM on the Elites CRT boards like you can on other sets? I looked at the schematic, and it isn't obvious if its possible. Can you enlighten me, please? Thanks.

I know you can disable it in the menu, but I am getting a bit obsessive withe my tweaking... lol. :D

Joe

SVM goes to coils that one each surround the neck of each picture tube. Each coil has 2 little wires going to it, maybe white or yellow, can't remember right now, and you usually unplug them.

HOWEVER~!

You gotta stay away from unplugging any of the sweep wires, which are much more thick. Without hor and vert sweep there would just be one super powerful dot in the center of the screen, hundreds if not thousands of times more powerful than it should be. It would vaporize those phosphors in that area instantly, faster than a phaser would, and the area surrounding the blast zone would be affected too. The resulting dot blast would show from then on, in every scene that has any content in it. I was not paying attention once and did that on a Mit set long before HD, and the entire gun had to be replaced and fully set up/calibrated to the red and blue guns. All techs have done things they don't necessarily want to crow about, and this is one reason I am SUPER careful these days on every move I make on my set or anybody else's. It's also why I advise anybody not already knowing what they are doing to NOT experiment in there! Way too much is riding on it.

So be ABSOLUTELY SURE you have the correct coil wires in mind before disco'ing anything and turning your set on again!


Personally I'd stay away from that mod, Joe. Too much is at stake. Your pic needs some level of ee anyway. I did the CraigR ee mod on my Mit, and even a calibrator who uses o'scopes in his cals like Craig does, emphasizes that the correct way to get the best crispness - notice I didn't say sharpness, which has garnered itself a questionable reputation - is to have just the right level of edge enhancement. Not none. Which is what his mod does and what I did when I used his mod to fine tune mine, on my 73". It installs a variability circuit to replace the fixed settings of the factory design.

The same message came from Runco when I did my training there - they said to use the lettering in graphics to set your ee level, going for the best crispness, all by eye.


So I would leave it alone, as far as invading the wiring or disabling it fully. I'd play with the User settings, and see how much crispness you can get without objectionable edge enhancement/Sharpness.

In the service menu, I usually nearly max out the service menu Detail setting - I put it at 120 of a possible 127 - and play with the Sharpness register, which many times needs to be rared down quite a bit from factory levels. But I always fine tune it. I never turn any of those things off or disconnect them.

On Mits's I take the service menu setting for VM from factory 2 to 1, but never to zero, which I could also do. It's there if I want it. I could also quite readily disco their coils, it's very obvious on a Mit. But I never do that either, because too little gives you too soft a picture. It's as bad as too much.


So my recommendation would be to stay away from disconnecting or disabling any of that stuff, on any CRT RPTV, regardless of brand. Not only is it unnecessary, it is invading the design and wiring of the unit, which can always turn into a potential landmine instantly, cooking your goose before you can blink, without even warming up the water.

Professionals know this and stay away from any unnecessary experimentation, unless the upside is going to be absolutely worth it, like the CraigR ee mod, or Owen's shimming op.

The downside is just too risky.

b

SVM goes to coils that one each surround the neck of each picture tube. Each coil has 2 little wires going to it, maybe white or yellow, can't remember right now, and you usually unplug them.

HOWEVER~!

You gotta stay away from unplugging any of the sweep wires, which are much more thick. Without hor and vert sweep there would just be one super powerful dot in the center of the screen, hundreds if not thousands of times more powerful than it should be. It would vaporize those phosphors in that area instantly, faster than a phaser would, and the area surrounding the blast zone would be affected too. The resulting dot blast would show from then on, in every scene that has any content in it. I was not paying attention once and did that on a Mit set long before HD, and the entire gun had to be replaced and fully set up/calibrated to the red and blue guns. All techs have done things they don't necessarily want to crow about, and this is one reason I am SUPER careful these days on every move I make on my set or anybody else's. It's also why I advise anybody not already knowing what they are doing to NOT experiment in there! Way too much is riding on it.

So be ABSOLUTELY SURE you have the correct coil wires in mind before disco'ing anything and turning your set on again!


Personally I'd stay away from that mod, Joe. Too much is at stake. Your pic needs some level of ee anyway. I did the CraigR ee mod on my Mit, and even a calibrator who uses o'scopes in his cals like Craig does, emphasizes that the correct way to get the best crispness - notice I didn't say sharpness, which has garnered itself a questionable reputation - is to have just the right level of edge enhancement. Not none. Which is what his mod does and what I did when I used his mod to fine tune mine, on my 73". It installs a variability circuit to replace the fixed settings of the factory design.

The same message came from Runco when I did my training there - they said to use the lettering in graphics to set your ee level, going for the best crispness, all by eye.


So I would leave it alone, as far as invading the wiring or disabling it fully. I'd play with the User settings, and see how much crispness you can get without objectionable edge enhancement/Sharpness.

In the service menu, I usually nearly max out the service menu Detail setting - I put it at 120 of a possible 127 - and play with the Sharpness register, which many times needs to be rared down quite a bit from factory levels. But I always fine tune it. I never turn any of those things off or disconnect them.

On Mits's I take the service menu setting for VM from factory 2 to 1, but never to zero, which I could also do. It's there if I want it. I could also quite readily disco their coils, it's very obvious on a Mit. But I never do that either, because too little gives you too soft a picture. It's as bad as too much.


So my recommendation would be to stay away from disconnecting or disabling any of that stuff, on any CRT RPTV, regardless of brand. Not only is it unnecessary, it is invading the design and wiring of the unit, which can always turn into a potential landmine instantly, cooking your goose before you can blink, without even warming up the water.

Professionals know this and stay away from any unnecessary experimentation, unless the upside is going to be absolutely worth it, like the CraigR ee mod, or Owen's shimming op.

The downside is just too risky.

b

Bob,

Thanks for the quick reply. This is pretty much exactly how i expected you would answer. The warning is well understood. I was hoping you'd confirm the wires I was planning to disco, and you did.

The annoying problem I am trying to solve is that even with the SVM off and the sharpness register dialed way down, there are still artifacts around the edges of things in HD around areas of high contrast (content--not setting). I have not found an acceptable level of sharpness to detail in SM to eliminate this. I have my detail set to 120. What range do you normally find works for you for the sharpness register?

I noticed that some techs were indeed disconnecting SVM on other sets...like Toshibas... and the results were generally very good for true HD, and not as good for live content. It turns out that the artifical EE is quite beneficial in those cases. Since I am mainly interested in watching Bluerays and streaming HD, I am not as concerned about the resulting "softness" they seem to be talking about. Does that make sense?

I wasn't going to try this first on my beloved 710. I've got the 510, and a bunch of sets I fixed for my brother. One of those can be the guinea pig. There is one in particular that needs a complete cal. Worst case, I have a box full of multiple spare driver boards, and a complete set of spare CRTS... a whole rack ready to drop in. I am no wanting to damage anything, but I am in a position to be more bold in my desire to make improvements.

Is it possible to disco just one of the drivers... say the SVM on the red board, with the red drive turned way down to start? Or, do I need to commit to all of them? If the latter, I will bail on this idea.

Otherwise, I will sit on this some more and look at the board and the SM some more. Chances are, I will back down and leave it alone.

Which brings up the CR EE mod. I have the requisite tools to do this on a Pioneer, including the scope. The pioneer uses basically the same chip as the Mit in CR's paper, but the Pioneer's circuit is a little more complicated than the simple 2 pin filter circuit employed on the MIT. So, it looks like I need to write out the equations for the filter to figure out the value and placement of the pot in this case. It looks like it may need more than one variable cap. Still, it ain't rocket science.

If I were insane enough to head down this path, would you support me? Deal would be if I am successful, I will publish the circuit and results for everyone.

BTW, I pull this crap all the time. I am more than just a weekend warrior when it comes to tech... LOL I drive my wife nuts...basically.

Joe

Bob,

I've got a DVDO VP-30 attached to my 710. The test patterns are fantastic. One that I have not paid much mind to until now has a black screen, with a white horizontal bar that moves across the screen at a steady rate.

I was surprised to see that twice (changes direction), there is a reflection similar to what you seen from "car headlights turning a corner" as the bar passes midpoint in either direction.

The entire unit was covered in duvetyne very meticulously by the previous owner. When I mean meticulous... I mean there is no bare surface except the lenses and the small area of the IR receiver. Is this reflection caused by the lenses themselves? If so, any easy way to fix?

I can post a video if it's interesting. It was quite a surprise to me.

Joe

Yeah, internal reflections are a bane, and there in all CRT projected tech. I assume your optics a thoroughly clean, all 10 surfaces of them, plus mirror?

Since you can't control yourself around these things (man after my own heart!), I suggest you contemplate coating each of the internal lenses, like they do in the fine microscopes and telescopes. There are 4 lenses in each lens barrel, meaning 8 surfaces. We clean 2 on each barrel - the front and the back - but we never touch the internal ones, it's not necessary.

Yet none of them are coated. I saw an experiment many years ago at the Exploratorium in SF, where 10 little glass lenses were in the way of what you were trying to see. Each one could be put into or out of the light path.

2 sets, one set of 10 coated, one set uncoated. The differences were absolutely amazing. On the string of them that were uncoated, when all 10 were in the light path you couldn't see pretty much anything at the other end! On the string where all were coated, you could see just fine.

I once passed on a perfectly good high power set of binocs because of this, since I would be using them at concerts.

b

Bob,

Thanks for the quick reply. This is pretty much exactly how i expected you would answer. The warning is well understood. I was hoping you'd confirm the wires I was planning to disco, and you did.

The annoying problem I am trying to solve is that even with the SVM off and the sharpness register dialed way down, there are still artifacts around the edges of things in HD around areas of high contrast (content--not setting). I have not found an acceptable level of sharpness to detail in SM to eliminate this. I have my detail set to 120. What range do you normally find works for you for the sharpness register?

I noticed that some techs were indeed disconnecting SVM on other sets...like Toshibas... and the results were generally very good for true HD, and not as good for live content. It turns out that the artifical EE is quite beneficial in those cases. Since I am mainly interested in watching Bluerays and streaming HD, I am not as concerned about the resulting "softness" they seem to be talking about. Does that make sense?

I wasn't going to try this first on my beloved 710. I've got the 510, and a bunch of sets I fixed for my brother. One of those can be the guinea pig. There is one in particular that needs a complete cal. Worst case, I have a box full of multiple spare driver boards, and a complete set of spare CRTS... a whole rack ready to drop in. I am no wanting to damage anything, but I am in a position to be more bold in my desire to make improvements.

Is it possible to disco just one of the drivers... say the SVM on the red board, with the red drive turned way down to start? Or, do I need to commit to all of them? If the latter, I will bail on this idea.

Otherwise, I will sit on this some more and look at the board and the SM some more. Chances are, I will back down and leave it alone.

Which brings up the CR EE mod. I have the requisite tools to do this on a Pioneer, including the scope. The pioneer uses basically the same chip as the Mit in CR's paper, but the Pioneer's circuit is a little more complicated than the simple 2 pin filter circuit employed on the MIT. So, it looks like I need to write out the equations for the filter to figure out the value and placement of the pot in this case. It looks like it may need more than one variable cap. Still, it ain't rocket science.

If I were insane enough to head down this path, would you support me? Deal would be if I am successful, I will publish the circuit and results for everyone.

BTW, I pull this crap all the time. I am more than just a weekend warrior when it comes to tech... LOL I drive my wife nuts...basically.

Joe

Yes you can do just one color at a time. In fact that's the only way to fly when doing the CraigR mod.

BTW, if it's the same chip, the same 2 legs would be the ones you would want. You should not have to be reinventing the wheel here, it should be carbon copy work.

b

Yes you can do just one color at a time. In fact that's the only way to fly when doing the CraigR mod.

BTW, if it's the same chip, the same 2 legs would be the ones you would want. You should not have to be reinventing the wheel here, it should be carbon copy work.

b

It is the same chip, TDA61020Q(N2), in terms of pin layout (1,3) and basics specs, but where Mits used the exact circuit recommended on the data sheet for the chip, Pioneer made a more elaborate filtering circuit. Check out page 83 of the SM - R CRT Drive.

You can see on the datasheet attached Fig 5 on p.8 on pins 1,3 ... same circuit Craig references. But if you look at the pioneer schematic...nope, not the same. It's still a RC filter circuit, just more complicated. A filter ladder active, multi-order... same caps, with lower resistance and added inductors... See what I mean? It looks like they tried to dial it in closer...maybe trying to get rid of that overshoot that CR was trying to tackle, without muddying up the waveform? So, the issue here is where is the right tap for adjustment? It's not as clear, without running the equation, I think. Or, am I missing something fundamental?

I guess the simple thing is to replace all three caps with variable ones... but that's a lot of extra work probably.

Joe

Yeah, internal reflections are a bane, and there in all CRT projected tech. I assume your optics a thoroughly clean, all 10 surfaces of them, plus mirror?

Since you can't control yourself around these things (man after my own heart!), I suggest you contemplate coating each of the internal lenses, like they do in the fine microscopes and telescopes. There are 4 lenses in each lens barrel, meaning 8 surfaces. We clean 2 on each barrel - the front and the back - but we never touch the internal ones, it's not necessary.

Yet none of them are coated. I saw an experiment many years ago at the Exploratorium in SF, where 10 little glass lenses were in the way of what you were trying to see. Each one could be put into or out of the light path.

2 sets, one set of 10 coated, one set uncoated. The differences were absolutely amazing. On the string of them that were uncoated, when all 10 were in the light path you couldn't see pretty much anything at the other end! On the string where all were coated, you could see just fine.

I once passed on a perfectly good high power set of binocs because of this, since I would be using them at concerts.

b

Yes... All 10 of the surfaces are quite clean... CR did in 2005, you personally did it again for the owner in 2008, and I did it again about 3 months ago. All 10. I am assuming taking the lenses apart to do the inner surfaces is not going to yield much additional change? It is a pain to take these apart. Did one last year.

Very interesting about the lens coating. Is that something I can do myself? If so, how do I learn how to do that properly? Otherwise, who does it? I'd hate to muck up the lenses in the pursuit of perfection. That would be ironic. :rolleyes:

Thanks.

Joe

Very. And yes, that's been done...

Don't worry about the internal lenses. They never get a blanketing of dust which is all we have to worry about. Individual particulates don't count, as everything is out of focus at that part of the light path. If the impediments don't rise to the definition of a blanketing of them, they won't impede the picture enough to matter.

The coating is not something I have ever seen done on these, nor heard about, I am the only one who I have ever heard mention it. Just know it would be the final last bit of improvement available re. internal reflections. You could put anti-reflective coating on the inside of the viewscreen as well, but before you do be sure that surface is flat and does not have the concentric etchings of the fresnel molded into it.

Does Craig do the deeper optics cleaning, that last 6 of the 10 total that need it?

b

It is the same chip, TDA61020Q(N2), in terms of pin layout (1,3) and basics specs, but where Mits used the exact circuit recommended on the data sheet for the chip, Pioneer made a more elaborate filtering circuit. Check out page 83 of the SM - R CRT Drive.

You can see on the datasheet attached Fig 5 on p.8 on pins 1,3 ... same circuit Craig references. But if you look at the pioneer schematic...nope, not the same. It's still a RC filter circuit, just more complicated. A filter ladder active, multi-order... same caps, with lower resistance and added inductors... See what I mean? It looks like they tried to dial it in closer...maybe trying to get rid of that overshoot that CR was trying to tackle, without muddying up the waveform? So, the issue here is where is the right tap for adjustment? It's not as clear, without running the equation, I think. Or, am I missing something fundamental?

I guess the simple thing is two replace all three caps with variable ones... but that's a lot of extra work probably.

Joe

Good Lord! Looks like they may have already maxed out its potential, no need for you to do anything. If they put that much design into it, chances are it's already great.

However, there are 3 guns, and on my Mit when I removed the caps and set them aside thinking they were all ID, turned out later when I looked them over closely, each color's had a different value. So I figure Mit must have already fine tuned the 3 by that model year, each to its best. Craig's was for a xxx13 series, mine was 2 years later, from the xx517 series. In the intervening time looks like Mit did some homework on that circuit, like Craig did.

So the other colors may have different values for everything in that circuit, you'll have to compare them to see.

Unfortunately I had already done the mod and maxed my set's potential out before I found all this out, so I've left the dang thing alone...

:p

b

Newest crop -

IC 204 in the set upon arrival here

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/1201/dsc01202g.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/dsc01202g.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


After each leg being touched by my soldering iron

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/9660/dsc01207l.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/812/dsc01207l.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


Fully restored for life, guaranteed personally by me

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/9916/dsc01210fr.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/109/dsc01210fr.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

The power transformer, looking good even tho other parts of the board are not reliable

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/3087/dsc01206cd.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/193/dsc01206cd.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Such as this

http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/161/dsc01203y.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/577/dsc01203y.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

and this

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2914/dsc012123.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/dsc012123.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Yes I am still resoldering these boards, will continue until there are no more to save!


b

Very bad workmanship on the part of this owner. Notice the missing sides of the multi-pin jacks. These are guides, and on this set those guides are missing.

This can cause plugs to be wrongly positioned in where they are supposed to plug in.

http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/8120/dsc01211n.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/dsc01211n.jpg/)

In this case the plug could be inserted with all pins one pin over to the right from where they are supposed to be! Who knows what instant and devastating domino effect that could cause! When the guides are there where they are supposed to be and have not been broken off, it's impossible to get it wrong when nothing is being forced.

http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/5017/dsc01212si.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/844/dsc01212si.jpg/)


Owners be careful! 2 jacks got compromised here on this one board, making it so 3 jacks are actually affected, as the wrong plug can now be successfully inserted wrongly into the one that is nearly identical, just one prong shorter/longer. The guide that is missing on that jack is now not protecting you from yourself, the jack is guideless on one end!

You have to have the nth degree of concentration when plugging the board back into the set, otherwise damage could happen instantly upon turnon again.

b

I am moving out of the area and cannot take my beloved Elite Pro 510 HD with me. It is in great shape with a resoldered power supply and only needs a good cleaning and an electronic alignment. It is need of a good home so If anyone out there wants one I am available to look at offers. (you must come and pick it up in Santa Cruz CA). Leave me a message and I'll get back to you.

Stan G

I have an Elite PRO-700 HD I bought in 1998, it has been ISF calibrated by Chad from Ohio about 3 years ago and still looks great. Does the 700HD have these soldering issues like the 510HD, or maybe not. Mine has been perfect since I bought it almost 14 years ago. Just curious, please let me know your thoughts. Thanks.

No, that gen will have a completely different PS board, and there have been no reports I have seen about cold solder joint problems with the 700 series.

It has a very hard to master convergence system, as it was the last one that came out before the point system arrived everywhere including Pioneer. But once that's handled, it has the capacity for greatness, just like all the Pioneer Elites.

No worries about the cold solder joint issues with that model year, tho. The issues started up the following year, on the 510/610/710 HDready line.

b

Mr. Bob,
Thanks for the quick reply. I appreciate the work that you calibrators do and improve the picture substantially. When Chad did the calibration, he worked on it for 9 hours straight. Never looked better once he was done and still looks killer 3 years later. Everyone that see's it comments on while watching a Blu-ray: "This is how a movie should look".

Yes, he's a pro.

Yet the optics still need to be cleaned every year without fail, and the deeper level optics done every few years as needed. Even the greatest calibration in the world will not truly show its stuff with its light path cloudy.

And every few years the convergence needs to be tightened up, as the convergence drifts naturally over time. Just like the aging of the 3 guns happens at different rates per color, so the grayscale also needs to be realigned every few years. At 3 years since his calibration, your set is definitely up for a good redo, after which it will have recaptured that gleam and glisten and depth that sets CRT video apart, and will look better than new all over again.



It's great to see a 700 being kept alive and well, and respected! Those Pioneer Elite CRT RPTVs are truly in a class by themselves.

:cool:

b

Hi Bob,
I just received my board back, installed it and nearly fell over when it came back to life. WOW! Let me start by saying, my set has been inop for more than 4 years. However, I couldn't bring myself to throw it away for three simple reasons. First, when it did work, it had a gorgeous picture. Second, it is a beautiful piece of furniture. Third, and most importantly, it cost me a buttload of money when I bought it. I might add that due to unavailability, I had never seen HD on my set. Well, I made the right decision in reading your blog and sending the board to you for repair. The set works like the day I brought it home, and for the first time I've experienced HD on it. You fall into the "highly recommend" category in my book. Thanks again!
Jerry

Only too glad to help!

:cool:


Owners:

Is yours a PRO 510/610/710 or PRO 520/620/720? If so has it had any intermittent problems that come and go? If so and it's one of the x10s, your power supply board needs nearly complete resoldering, and this needs to be done early on if you want to avoid damage that will ensue if you don't get that handled promptly. It is NOT best left in the hands of most local repair servicers, who only repair what's bad now. They typically do not future-proof that board, which is my specialty.

If it's one of the x20 series, chances are it's the same board if it has the same symptoms. There's a test to know for sure: If it's vertically mounted in there to the bulkhead of the set, it IS the same board. If mounted on the floor, it's not.

If it is, please get that board to me for resoldering and restoring permanently stable operations to your set again. Any boards I resolder carry my lifetime warranty on that problem not coming back again, as long as it was caused by cold solder joints on that board, which is how it came out of the factory and thus applies to every one of those sets ever produced. If you have me do it you'll never again have to worry about it, for the life of your set. I have been doing this resoldering op for over 7 years now, and this applies to all boards I have ever done, whether that guaranty was in place at the time I did your board or not.

And these sets are only midway thru their 20 year service life. Keeping it alive rather than buying new is the right thing to do, and not just to keep them out of the world's landfills. They were designed for the ultimate in HD viewing and are true classics, right up there with MacIntosh tube-amp Audio. Worthy of being kept alive for years and years to come. Fully cleaned and supertweaked, I will place them right up there with the new stuff you can buy today, which doesn't last nearly as long! And not only will they stand tall, they will soundly trounce most of the easily affordable stuff out there, by a noticeable margin.

Help me save more of these incredible sets. I have only saved several tons of sets so far in the last 7 years since I started fixing them, and am eager for more!

Once they are stable again, please allow me to bring them back to life for you, to a grade I guaranty you have never seen before if they have never been cleaned or calibrated. If you want to see what your sets SHOULD be looking like, please see page 45 of the Pioneer Elite PRO 510 Problem thread for actual screenshots of your vintage of set in action!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=402397&page=45

;)

Mr Bob

I have a Elite 620 and recently switched from DirecTV to Dish and now find that the TV is cutting off the top 1-2" of the picture. It may also be cutting off the bottom as well. I am using the component video interface from the DVR to the TV and cant seem to find an adjustment to correct.

Anyone know how to fix this, or do I just have to live with it?

I have a Elite 620 and recently switched from DirecTV to Dish and now find that the TV is cutting off the top 1-2" of the picture. It may also be cutting off the bottom as well. I am using the component video interface from the DVR to the TV and cant seem to find an adjustment to correct.

Anyone know how to fix this, or do I just have to live with it?

Welcome to my hell!

My question to you is, what are you basing that off of? Cause it doesn't matter if I'm watching an over the air signal or that same station on Dish, the overscan is the same. If you're basing your observations on the cutoff in the menu, DirecTV might just scale theirs differently.

Curious to see your answer.

All CRT RPTVs were designed with this overscan built-in, and believe it or not it's been there all along, no matter what source you have been using or have changed over to.

It can be cured, but this is not an op you should even think about taking on unless you have lots of time on your hands and endless patience. The learning curve is immense. It's something that's always available in my calibrations and all things considered is quite cost effective compared to the benefits, but very few owners are ready for it. I am. I was born ready for it.

There are 2 ways to do it - resize your pic in the service menu by redoing height and width and correcting is one. And the shimming op, where you resize the pic via lifting the entire CRT array up on blocks permanently, reducing the size of your pic to appropriateness for seeing what you've been missing all along, and then correcting.

Either one requires that the entire pic's image structure be redone from scratch afterwards - geometry and convergence, and focusing if you do the shimming op - and if you don't get all that just right again, you could ruin your picture.

My advice: get me on it. Either confer with me on the phone or fly me in. Either way, it's not for the faint of heart.

But afterwards, you'll kick yourself for waiting so long! It's one of the best things you can do for your set.

;)

b

All CRT RPTVs were designed with this overscan built-in, and believe it or not it's been there all along, no matter what source you have been using or have changed over to.

It can be cured, but this is not an op you should even think about taking on unless you have lots of time on your hands and endless patience. The learning curve is immense. It's something that's always available in my calibrations and all things considered is quite cost effective compared to the benefits, but very few owners are ready for it. I am. I was born ready for it.

There are 2 ways to do it - resize your pic in the service menu by redoing height and width and correcting is one. And the shimming op, where you resize the pic via lifting the entire CRT array up on blocks permanently, reducing the size of your pic to appropriateness for seeing what you've been missing all along, and then correcting.

Either one requires that the entire pic's image structure be redone from scratch afterwards - geometry and convergence, and focusing if you do the shimming op - and if you don't get all that just right again, you could ruin your picture.

My advice: get me on it. Either confer with me on the phone or fly me in. Either way, it's not for the faint of heart.

But afterwards, you'll kick yourself for waiting so long! It's one of the best things you can do for your set.

;)

b

I can attest to Mr. Bob's post in three ways:

1) Workload: The shimming op took a monumental effort, and I also pitched in to help Mr. Bob where I could on my Pro710HD calibration, specifically around mounting the blocks etc.

2) Mr. Bob's attention to detail and experience: Nothing new to add here, but Mr. Bob patiently spent countless hours perfecting the image after the shimming op, and the end result...

3) Was it worth it?: H Yes!. I had some serious overscan issues, and Mr. Bob was able to bring it to within 2 - 5 %, which is remarkable because now I see all tickers on ESPN and CNN. Simply phenomenal to see what I had been missing around the edges.

Hope this helps.

KS

If you want to get shots of cold solder joints, it's best to do so at an angle. It's hard to see them when the shot is from straight above. Look for a "halo" around the leg itself, sometimes with an obvious separation going on in that halo.

I think they should call them "dry" solder joints rather than "cold", but they didn't ask me... It's like they "dried out".

"Cold" solder joints are dry and flat and dull and lifeless, without the rich gloss and gleam of a good solder joint, which lasts forever. These actually look pretty glossy, lots more so than I normally see on the x10 series.

In the case of the affected PS bd they are also thin. Whenever I resolder a board I always wind up adding lots of solder, prolly doubling the amount on there originally. Lots of the conns I work with on these boards are so thin that when I hit them with my iron, they separate, exposing a huge gap.

I have now seen many of the 520/620/720 series with exactly the same PS bd as the 510/610/710 series. It usually needs the resoldering work also. You'll know it's the same bd if it's mounted vertically onto the bulkhead, just like the x10 series.

The "paint" you see missing is actually the masking they use. DK why it's not there in certain areas, perhaps to make it easier to do testing with probes...


How did this finally come out, BTW?


Mr Bob
Was looking for info on how to fix the overscan issue on this set. (Especially when Directv switched their GUI--now, can't read the clock etc)

Well, after my 3 hour (pretty much re-soldered every joint) soldering job back in April 2008...the set has been rock-solid! Zero issues after heavy use. Well, other than burn-in getting worse from tickers and station logos.

Just thought I'd give an update!

Awesome!

:cool:

b

Time has come for me to clear out my emails from my ISP again, and there are so many this time that it is going to take a while!

Until I have this handled this time, if you want to reach me by email, please send all emails to mrbob84@gmail.com. Phone number is always available regardless of email status, of course.

I'll get this handled as soon as I can.

b

I think the crisis has passed. I got a lot of work done on downloading it all to Outlook, so now there's just a really small, innocuous amount of email on my ISP.

I think the regular email address will work fine now. Let me know if you get any bouncebacks -

b

I think my Elite 510 HD is dieing. The brightness was been weak for a while, but then last night the convergence on the red went bad -- top right and bottom left went way off and the convergence menu had no effect. Any hope for this, or do I have to go LCD shopping?

http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/9381/elite510.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/elite510.jpg/)


scott s.
.

Worth Saving!!!!

You have come to the right place... And I am sure you will have Mr. Bob's attention shortly. It looks like the red amp on one of your two convergence chips is going. If so, very easy fix. If you are handy with a soldering iron...you may actually be able to do it yourself.

Two recommendations... 1. Pay for an hour or two of phone consultation with Bob.. totally worth it. 2. Upgrade the existing chips from the original STK392-110s to the upgrade replacements STK392-180s.

The chips are pretty cheap... $20 from MCM electronics. Don't buy cheaper ones from EBay. They are seconds. The cost to replace them and setup the calibration depends on you. That will become more clear when you talk to Bob...

I have a 510 and a 710. The 710 was professionally calibrated by the best in the business...Craig Rounds and Bob himself...both before I bought it. Both now have shim mods. I did the 510 calibration myself from what I learned here and elsewhere online. Both of my sets blow away my Sony LCD...and it's no slouch.

Keep it. Fix it. Save your cash...

Good luck!

Joe

Absolutely. There are 6 channels in there for convergence - horizontal and vertical for each color. 2 chips do it all, but don't try to figure out which is bad, just change them both out, because the other would go relatively soon.

Yes many owners do it themselves, Joe is one of the most prolific owners I have ever seen! Or you can have me do it by sending me the board, it's super easy to remove and send off.

No, don't even think about buying new. Totally unnecessary if you own one of these babies. They are 20 year service life sets.

b

Mr. Bob and I just had a phone session on cleaning optics on my elite 630.I cannot thank him enough for the patience with me as I disassembled one of my 3 Pioneers for the first time. To summarize the experience was magic. I cannot believe how much information is created through those 3 guns via those lenses and mirror. The technology despite its age is magical.

The lesson in life is a valuable one and it has caused me to consider how much is truly new improved and worth obtaining in other areas of my life. How much do we truly understand about what we discard and what we covet and acquire?

I first came to AVS forums circa 2005 and decided on a Hitachi 57 inch unit. Finally getting back to the forums years later I took the plunge and purchased a Pioneer 710 HD which had already been tuned, converged by a local technician. The picture was so impressive, I found a 730 HDi and bought it (needs work) and then found the 630 for the sweet price of $100 local. Thank you craigslist search app.

I know it is apples and oranges but I sat down in best buy and looked at a top of the line Viera. By the time I added up the TV, furniture for the TV or professional mount/installation and the sound system, I could not justify the huge investment instead of picking up one of these units.

Now I have become a TV holic. I sit around watching HD content via cable and cannot believe how lovely the picture is. Truly a pleasure in life that I was missing.

Thank you Mr. Bob. I wonder what you would charge me if I flew you out to work on all three sets? I am hunting a new prospect, Mit WS 65813 supposedly 9 inch guns?

Is there anyone in Orlando central Florida area that wants to put together a Mr. Bob trip?

Sam

Thanks Sam, appreciate it. Was fun! And yes, the 65813 has the 9" guns. So does the 65815/the following model year, making the 65815 a year newer and fresher than the 65813.

Having an eye surgeon like yourself working with me on the optical parts of these ops is delicious! Thanks for the articles you emailed me on the various aspects of seeing clearly, esp. applied here to this genre, like vernier and how it applies.


On a calibration tour it would cost you just the normal calibration rates on the first one, and you get to divvy up the various travel expenses getting me there by however many owners participate. When I did my Minn, MN tour, each participant only had to come out of pocket $78.50 each, for my travel expenses.

Since you have 3 of these babies, we might be able to work out a quantity deal price on the second and third.

Anyone who wants to get involved with this tour, contact us. Sam already has the core of 3 units to do while there.


b

Absolutely. There are 6 channels in there for convergence - horizontal and vertical for each color. 2 chips do it all, but don't try to figure out which is bad, just change them both out, because the other would go relatively soon.

Yes many owners do it themselves, Joe is one of the most prolific owners I have ever seen! Or you can have me do it by sending me the board, it's super easy to remove and send off.

No, don't even think about buying new. Totally unnecessary if you own one of these babies. They are 20 year service life sets.

b

thanks guys. Is there a big calibration effort required after changing out chips? Any pix (maybe in this thread or another)? I'm still concerned that even if I fix this immediate problem I still have the issue of the brightness going bad (for example, when I watch something with subtitle when the subtitle comes on the image goes noticeably darker).

scott s.
.

The 510/610/710 and 520/620/720 series' eventually go dimmer in the Black Level over the years, where you have to keep goosing up the Black Level in User menu. Usually at 10 years old it has to be run up at +12 to +15 on Black Level to be able to see shadow detail, and this usually slews your grayscale as well, off from where it should be.

But this can be quite readily remedied by realigning the energies getting to the guns, stepping them up again to where they were when the set was new, causing perfect shadow detail again at Black Level midpoint of zero in User Menu. Optics cleaning is essential as well. I can do it with you over the phone, many owners on this thread have been coached by me on this op and others.

Many things can be taught over the phone, I do it all the time, from CA to far corners of the country, even the continent or other countries. If you can't fly me in, rest assured there are still powerful things that can be done to keep your set alive and well. And if you do fly me in and give me free hand, your set can wind up looking better than new.

Long live CRT! These are ageless sets, with 20 year service lives. My fondest wish would be to make every one of them look better than new.

b

I bought mine in 2003 and haven't done anything to it, other than run the Avia user calibration from time to time. Currently I only use one of the DVI inputs and it seems like there aren't that many picture adjustments on digital input.

scott s.
.

Then you have no idea what you're missing.

Go to page 45 of this thread and look at the pix I took of sets I have worked on in other parts of the country. That's how your set can look given the proper attention, which I promise you has not happened yet.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=402397&page=45

Avia is strictly SD, not HD. And there is no DVI on a 510. Don't know what you're calling DVI, but your set doesn't have it, it hadn't been created yet for the populace at the time your set was designed and produced.

If all the calibration you've done is with AVIA, it has not been calibrated for HD. If you are not using your 510 for watching high definition on it, you are REALLY missing the boat!

Really. You have no idea what you're missing. Tell him, guys -

b

update

Avia is strictly SD, not HD. And there is no DVI on a 510. Don't know what you're calling DVI, but your set doesn't have it, it hadn't been created yet for the populace at the time your set was designed and produced.

If all the calibration you've done is with AVIA, it has not been calibrated for HD. If you are not using your 510 for watching high definition on it, you are REALLY missing the boat!

Really. You have no idea what you're missing. Tell him, guys -

b

Sorry, sorry sorry. Must have had a major brain fart. It's actually a PRO-530HD. I don't know why all this time I was thinking 510? Very embarrassing.

I went ahead and ordered a couple of the Sanyo STK 392-180 convergence amps. Figure nothing lost. I assume after replacing I have to go through a full convergence adjustment. Found a manual online that seems to lay it out, though not 100% clear.

scott s.
.

If you want the fullest benefit of your set, yes you need to reconverge after replacing your ICs. And then again after the 100 hour drift period.

You have still not answered about HD and AVIA. Are you being pleasantly hypnotized by stealth grade HD on your set, or is that an experience you have yet to have?

If you want the best from your HD, get Joe Kane's Digital Video Essentials - DVE for short - and if you really want the best and tightest convergence possible, contact me about using my Accupel HDG 2000 HD pattern generator for a week or so. It has the best patterns for component fed sets. I use my HDG 3000 really only for its DVI/HDMI capacities, without the need for that I would still be using my 2000.

b

Been thinking about getting DVE but never got around to it. Currently all my video goes via my Denon 3300ci AVR which can send either 480p or 1080i via HMDI/DVI input 5 on the Elite. I only have a Samsung STB ATSC tuner for HD material, though. I guess the parts should show up in a week or so, so once I get them in I'll have a better idea. I didn't find any direct info on the 530 model, but it seems reasonably straightforward to remove the power supply board and then get access to unsolder and replace the chips. I see there's some funky procedure you have to use if you power up the unit with the back off, though it seems like you can disable the HDCP protection switch and avoid that if you are careful.

scott s.
.

HDCP protection is all about copy protection, and has nothing to do with the power interlock that keeps your set from firing up with the back off unless you were to defeat it.

And you don't want to defeat that interlock in this case.

You usually never want to be powering up your set with the back off anyway, you want to unplug it whenever the back is off, unless absolutely necessary for service repair troubleshooting. Which you don't need to do in this case - convergence is pretty open and shut without ever having to have the unit powered up for repair troubleshooting, which only needs to happen in certain instances. This is not one of them.

Also, don't ever remove the top half of the back, the slanted section. Your mirror will nosedive into your screens, ruining them and possibly breaking itself on the lenses, possibly scarring them for life.

I am not sure the PS board is the one you work with, to replace the conv ICs, have not had the pleasure on the 530. But don't remove any board you don't necessarily have to remove, to get that job done.

This is not a job for the faint of heart, nor the overconfident. Be careful in there. If you don't already know what you're doing, best to leave this kind of op to someone who does. The 510 and the first half of the 520 model year have a dedicated conv bd that gets removed to replace the conv ICs, they are not on the power supply board. Again, have not had the pleasure with a 530 nor the second half of the 520 series, they may have those ICs on the PS board. Just be careful in there, you're kinda on your own in some ways. Tho I am sure someone on this thread might be able to give you some guidance from having done it themselves on a 530 -

b

I own a Pioneer Elite Pro530-HDI and a Pro510-HD. My beloved Pro510-HD worked great until a week ago. Then the chip in the red convergence board failed. Since I don't know how to replace the failed chip myself and I can't afford to have Mr. Bob fix it, as I'm not working, I may have to let my 510 go. I wonder if anyone is interested in resurrecting/repairing my 510 for their personal use. I would hate to see this beautiful television go to waste.

I can't believe you'd be willing to let such a fine piece of gear go, just because of a repair it needs that DIYers constantly do on their own, typically for under $50 when done by the owner himself.

:eek:

b