Pioneer Elite Pro-510 problem [Text View] - Page 4

Mr Bob

12-01-06, 02:35 AM

Mr. Bob, I just saw this set yesterday and was blown away by it. It was running the blu-ray Pioneer demo disc at 1080p. As a 710 owner I can't get a 50" and will have to wait until they come up with at least a 60" version of this TV. My question is what is you're opinion of the FHD1? I know it will be costly. When you compare the picture of this set to any other brand TV in the store it wins hands down. The blacks are amazing. I looked at the other model Pioneer plasmas and they look terrible compared to the FHD1. The sales person said Pioneer will have their hands full trying to make this set larger because it is made of up one piece of glass. He said something about have to use two pieces to go higher than 50".

your thoughts,

thanks

Panny already has a 65" plasma. They also have a 103" plasma, I saw 3 of them at CES in January. I did not notice any separations in the glass they used.

It's still being debated, but I think the Panny has better blacks, tho I have not seen either.

Check out these threads:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9034616#post9034616

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9037150#post9037150

There's another one here on AVS that compares the 50" Pio FHD1 to the new 65" Panny, both 1080p plasmas, but I could not find it on the spur of the moment. Perhaps you can. I will put it up here if and when I am notified by email of another post there.

1080p on fixed pixel is blowing people away, because all the affordable fixed pixels are 720p at this stage of the game. But 1080 has roughly twice the pixel density of 720. Affording a much higher resolution pic than plasma has ever seen before. Do the math.

Of course, CRT HD has had 1080 for a long time, and has been shutting down 720p fixed pixel all over the place lately, as long as it is fully calibrated. Just that it's 1080i rather than p. But even non-p 1080i has twice the pixel density of 720.

These days I don't see much difference in 1080i vs. p, except when flashes such as those made by pyrotechniques and flashbulbs freak out the 1080i and make it pixellate, which yes still happens. But just panning doesn't make 1080i pixellate anymore, the way it used to.

Long live 1080!

Mr Bob

PRO710HD

12-02-06, 11:33 AM

"Where to buy Sprayway"

Found it "In Stock" at my local Home depot for about 2 bucks a can. Ace Hardware does also stock this item but not usually at all stores. They can order it for you as well.

Mr Bob

12-02-06, 12:24 PM

"Where to buy Sprayway"

Found it "In Stock" at my local Home depot for about 2 bucks a can. Ace Hardware does also stock this item but not usually at all stores. They can order it for you as well.

Great! Have tried Home Depot before, to no avail. Good to see at least one of their stores is carrying it now. Perhaps all are...

Mr Bob

PS - Glass Plus is also great, tho not a foam, and thus more likely to be invasive to the deeper lenses if you're not careful. With the proper care, you can use it for results that are just as good as Sprayway.

You can get GP at any grocery store chain.

seymore

12-05-06, 12:01 AM

Mr Bob

12-05-06, 03:37 PM

Dear Mr Bob,

I too have a 510 with that suffers from blue flashes for the last month and hopefully will be fixed by re-soldering the PS PCB. I also noticed while cleaning the lens that all 3 CRT's had a 5-10 black particles .02-.10" settled on the CRT faces in the cooling liquid. The green CRT had what appeared to be a 1" long fiber or hair. Not sure if some of this came from decomposing seals or surface coatings or just poor assembly environment.

What is you opinion or observation on the necessity of cleaning this up? I hadn't notice any of these showing up on the screen, but the I wasn't looking for them either. I am not sure I would want to invest the time of removing, disassembling, cleaning, replacing fluid in each CRT and recalibrating the system.

I have already replaced my old time friend 510 with a WD-65732 as my primary theater display (purchased Mits before finding this thread), but just don't like the idea of such a nice display/furniture being retired.

Virtually all 510s that I have worked on in the last few years have needed the deeper optics cleaning desperately, and most owners have instructued me to go ahead once I have shown them why.

Individuated particulates are not the problem, as everything in there is out of focus at that point in the light path. The matting of dust that creeps in there under the lenses is what needs the attention, and there's also one on the rear layer/lens of each of the 3 lens packs. When you do the deeper optics cleaning, you double what gets cleaned, in there.

The coolant never gets contaminated in there, so what you are seeing has nothing to do with opening up the coolant covers and replacing coolant. What you are seeing is on the top of the coolant cover, and along with the lens rears is emminently cleanable.

I am available for paid phone consultation if you wish to get this taken care of, and get pristine, crystal clear viewing back into your set.

Mr Bob

seymore

12-05-06, 05:27 PM

The coolant never gets contaminated in there, so what you are seeing has nothing to do with opening up the coolant covers and replacing coolant. What you are seeing is on the top of the coolant cover, and along with the lens rears is emminently cleanable.

Mr Bob

Mr Bob, I forgot to mention that I had already removed the lens pack from the red CRT thinking maybe the contaminate was on top of the liquid cover. Unfortunately the black specks are sitting on the face of the CRT and the bottom of the coolant. I wish I had taken pictures while it was apart. Once I get the blue flash problem fixed I may investgate further and give you a call.

Thanks,
seymore

Mr Bob

12-05-06, 08:09 PM

Mr Bob, I forgot to mention that I had already removed the lens pack from the red CRT thinking maybe the contaminate was on top of the liquid cover. Unfortunately the black specks are sitting on the face of the CRT and the bottom of the coolant. I wish I had taken pictures while it was apart. Once I get the blue flash problem fixed I may investgate further and give you a call.

Thanks,
seymore

This is rare.

It won't affect your picture unless it's right on top of the CRT face, and thus in focus. In which case you'd see it appearing in focus at your view screen, just like the CRT's image does, as an absence of that paritcular color - ei, the appearance in the same shape, in that guns corrollary color. Speck on green gun face would mean a magenta speck image, etc.

If it's out of focus by being anywhere ABOVE the CRT's face, you needn't worry about it. Black specks will not "spray" excess light around into your darker areas, as white specks and mattings of dust will.

Giant blotches would show up even if out of focus, but tiny black specks will absorb light because they're black, and disappear because they are out of focus.

Mr Bob

Gujustud

12-06-06, 01:11 AM

PamW

12-06-06, 08:03 AM

Funny enough, I just posted up (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9088649#post9088649) about this problem with my Pioneer SD-532-HD5. I've only read page one of this whole thread, but I'll come back here and post up if I find a solution, or if I need to call a tech in.
Settle back with a couple of cups of coffee and read this whole thread. It took me over 2 hours when I discovered it a few months ago. My Pro 710 is now working perfectly, thanks to the information found here. My tech is so funny. When I told him what I thought the problem was, he said, "You've been on that forum again, haven't you? I wish more of my customers were in the know." :D

maxdog03

12-06-06, 02:42 PM

This is rare.

It won't affect your picture unless it's right on top of the CRT face, and thus in focus. In which case you'd see it appearing in focus at your view screen, just like the CRT's image does, as an absence of that paritcular color - ei, the appearance in the same shape, in that guns corrollary color. Speck on green gun face would mean a magenta speck image, etc.

If it's out of focus by being anywhere ABOVE the CRT's face, you needn't worry about it. Black specks will not "spray" excess light around into your darker areas, as white specks and mattings of dust will.

Giant blotches would show up even if out of focus, but tiny black specks will absorb light because they're black, and disappear because they are out of focus.

Mr Bob

I have an older rear projection set, the Pioneer Pro 98 and it still has a pretty good picture but it has some yellow cloud looking patches throughout various spots on the screenand also seems a little out of focus at times. It's really noticeable when the screen has some white areas or light blue sky. I had a repair tech out to look at a problem with my son's Panasonic 32LX50 LCD and talked to him about cleaning the inside opticals and mirror. He said it would be $40.00 and could do it the same time he comes back and puts a new panel in the Panasonic and not have to charge me for a service call. Sounds like a great deal and wondering what to make sure he does and what to expect. Thanks,

Gujustud

12-06-06, 02:45 PM

Thats my plan tonight, along with finding the receipt for the TV, and hoping that my tv is still under warrenty. For some reason I think we got 6yr warrenty with it, and I know we purchased the TV in Jan '01, so I'm holding my fingers crossed when I find the receipt.

In the meantime I called Pioneer Canada today, and spoke with a friendly rep. I explained the problem, and also mentioned this forum/thread (which the forums he was aware about). He did mention a known issue with cold solder problem. Gave me a local tech that has been w/ pioneer a long time. He said I may have to pay (around $120cdn). I did mention that some others have had it fixed for free, and he gave his managers name to speak with for anything 'cost related', so I think there is a option of Pioneer having it taken care of for me. First things first, is to check my warrenty! Fingers crossed! Will continue to update this awesome thread.

Gujustud

12-06-06, 03:45 PM

Just found my receipt. Purchase date 12/29/2001. Warrenty period....

... 6 yrs... meaning expiry is 12/29/2007. Another YEAR still left! Awesome just awesome. Calling the local tech now!

Mr Bob

12-08-06, 01:32 AM

I have an older rear projection set, the Pioneer Pro 98 and it still has a pretty good picture but it has some yellow cloud looking patches throughout various spots on the screenand also seems a little out of focus at times. It's really noticeable when the screen has some white areas or light blue sky. I had a repair tech out to look at a problem with my son's Panasonic 32LX50 LCD and talked to him about cleaning the inside opticals and mirror. He said it would be $40.00 and could do it the same time he comes back and puts a new panel in the Panasonic and not have to charge me for a service call. Sounds like a great deal and wondering what to make sure he does and what to expect. Thanks,

Yellow is the lack of blue. Yellow patches on white/blue areas probably indicate that the blue is being held back in there somehow, some way. I would look inside and see if there are "cooties in the coolant" in the blue gun. Patches of them.

Hope your tech knows how to clean those things without scratching your plastic lenses, stripping your front surface aluminum coated HD grade mirror, and allowing the inner lenses in each stack to fog up internally because of liquid getting in there.

If you want him to have a tutorial from me before you hand off your possibly irreplaceable optics to his care, you might want to get him in touch with me.

What to expect? The difference between Finding Nemo underwater in the murky deep, and Finding Nemo out of water in the crystal clear air.

Mr Bob

maxdog03

12-08-06, 11:19 AM

Yellow is the lack of blue. Yellow patches on white/blue areas probably indicate that the blue is being held back in there somehow, some way. I would look inside and see if there are "cooties in the coolant" in the blue gun. Patches of them.

Hope your tech knows how to clean those things without scratching your plastic lenses, stripping your front surface aluminum coated HD grade mirror, and allowing the inner lenses in each stack to fog up internally because of liquid getting in there.

If you want him to have a tutorial from me before you hand off your possibly irreplaceable optics to his care, you might want to get him in touch with me.

What to expect? The difference between Finding Nemo underwater in the murky deep, and Finding Nemo out of water in the crystal clear air.

Mr Bob

Thanks Bob, much appreciated.

If there are cooties in the blue gun, is that something that can be corrected during a proper cleaning or does it require more intensive (expensive ) service? Seeing as how I'm hoping to replace this set with an HD set, I'm not looking to invest to much money into a 10 year old set. I'm looking at buying a 6 year old Pioneer Elite 532HD for around $600.00. Is that a good choice and what should my expectations be of the set compared to my older non HD Pro 98?

Mr Bob

12-08-06, 03:48 PM

Thanks Bob, much appreciated.

If there are cooties in the blue gun, is that something that can be corrected during a proper cleaning or does it require more intensive (expensive ) service? Seeing as how I'm hoping to replace this set with an HD set, I'm not looking to invest to much money into a 10 year old set. I'm looking at buying a 6 year old Pioneer Elite 532HD for around $600.00. Is that a good choice and what should my expectations be of the set compared to my older non HD Pro 98?

Cooties in the coolant are growths inside the coolant chamber, in the coolant itself. Even if Pio allowed coolant replacement itself - neither Mit nor Panny will, they require CRT replacement instead, tho I have been able to restore missing coolant to a Panny, which was let out by the customer - replacing coolant is a big job, requiring removal and replacement of the affected CRT.

The 532s are dynamite sets, their chasses are the same as the Elites, tho there may be other differences like lenses etc. The last one I cleaned and calibrated turned out spectacular, every bit as good as the Elites I calibrate, in terms of picture quality.

$600 for a fully operational 532 is a steal. Buy it and have me clean and calibrate it for you, winding up in a complete restoration of it. I'll put the "Sparkle Process" on it...

Mr Bob

maxdog03

12-08-06, 10:44 PM

Cooties in the coolant are growths inside the coolant chamber, in the coolant itself. Even if Pio allowed coolant replacement itself - neither Mit nor Panny will, they require CRT replacement instead, tho I have been able to restore missing coolant to a Panny, which was let out by the customer - replacing coolant is a big job, requiring removal and replacement of the affected CRT.

The 532s are dynamite sets, their chasses are the same as the Elites, tho there may be other differences like lenses etc. The last one I cleaned and calibrated turned out spectacular, every bit as good as the Elites I calibrate, in terms of picture quality.

$600 for a fully operational 532 is a steal. Buy it and have me clean and calibrate it for you, winding up in a complete restoration of it. I'll put the "Sparkle Process" on it...

Mr Bob

Hmmm? Sounds like that could be an option. I guess I was a little confused as for some reason I had it in my head that the 532HD was in the Elite line of Pioneer and now realize by your comments and further research that it's not. I haven't physically looked at the set yet, but hope to maybe this weekend. What do you normally charge for this kind of service? my son has a 32lx50 Panasonic and my daughter has a Sony 3LCD 55" Sony. Would they benefit much from a calibration? I set my son's TV up by the Avia disc, but now it's going into service on Monday to possibly get the panel replaced under warranty. Picture never seemed as good as the stores from the beginning, but it got progressively worse so I'm anxious to see what it will look like with a new panel. Thanks for your help Bob and looking forward to your reply. You can email me the info if that would be best.

maxdog03@comcast.net

maxdog03

12-09-06, 11:57 AM

Hmmm? Sounds like that could be an option. I guess I was a little confused as for some reason I had it in my head that the 532HD was in the Elite line of Pioneer and now realize by your comments and further research that it's not. I haven't physically looked at the set yet, but hope to maybe this weekend. What do you normally charge for this kind of service? my son has a 32lx50 Panasonic and my daughter has a Sony 3LCD 55" Sony. Would they benefit much from a calibration? I set my son's TV up by the Avia disc, but now it's going into service on Monday to possibly get the panel replaced under warranty. Picture never seemed as good as the stores from the beginning, but it got progressively worse so I'm anxious to see what it will look like with a new panel. Thanks for your help Bob and looking forward to your reply. You can email me the info if that would be best.

maxdog03@comcast.net

In addition, does anyone know the corresponding Pioneer sets to the Elites?

Pioneer Po Elite 510HD equals Pioneer ?????

Pioneer Po Elite 520HD equals Pioneer ?????

Pioneer Po Elite 530HD equals Pioneer ?????

any reason to stay away from any of these sets? I've heard their are some issues with the Elite 530HD and a class action suit has been settled for some problems. Same thing with the regular Pioneer line of TV's?

Mr Bob

12-09-06, 11:58 AM

Hmmm? Sounds like that could be an option. I guess I was a little confused as for some reason I had it in my head that the 532HD was in the Elite line of Pioneer and now realize by your comments and further research that it's not. I haven't physically looked at the set yet, but hope to maybe this weekend. What do you normally charge for this kind of service? my son has a 32lx50 Panasonic and my daughter has a Sony 3LCD 55" Sony. Would they benefit much from a calibration? I set my son's TV up by the Avia disc, but now it's going into service on Monday to possibly get the panel replaced under warranty. Picture never seemed as good as the stores from the beginning, but it got progressively worse so I'm anxious to see what it will look like with a new panel. Thanks for your help Bob and looking forward to your reply. You can email me the info if that would be best.

maxdog03@comcast.net

I charge $75/hr travel plus $485 for your primary scanrate - usually HD these days, but that was not always so - and $285 for your secondary scanrate, usually DVD these days. Charges on the secondary scanrate are reduced if you have an upconverting DVDP, that allows it to be used on 1080i on your set, and as such have no need for calibration of 480p. 480i might still need some work, of course.

That covers the basic Image Perfection calibration package. Extras might include overscan reduction, deeper optics cleaning on older sets, glarescreen removal, astigmatism alignment if the focus is not even across the screen (very prevalent on the blue of the 510 Elite series), realignment of the aspect ratios on 480i...we can talk about those at the time.

Those are the basics. If you want your coolant changed out, we can talk about that off-board.

Contact me if you want to do these things.

Mr Bob

Mr Bob

12-09-06, 12:06 PM

In addition, does anyone know the corresponding Pioneer sets to the Elites?

Pioneer Po Elite 510HD equals Pioneer ?????

Pioneer Po Elite 520HD equals Pioneer ?????

Pioneer Po Elite 530HD equals Pioneer ?????

any reason to stay away from any of these sets? I've heard their are some issues with the Elite 530HD and a class action suit has been settled for some problems. Same thing with the regular Pioneer line of TV's?

Those are model years you are talking about. Each model year has its own sizes - 510, 610, 710 - and each of those uses the same electronics. But the electronics changes year by year.

The 510 service manual lists the 532 and 632 as being basically the same electronics as the 510/610/710.

Mr Bob

maxdog03

12-09-06, 01:28 PM

Those are model years you are talking about. Each model year has its own sizes - 510, 610, 710 - and each of those uses the same electronics. But the electronics changes year by year.

The 510 service manual lists the 532 and 632 as being basically the same electronics as the 510/610/710.

Mr Bob

Right, I was aware that they are model years as I was just trying to find out the corresponding regular Pioneer line to the different year Elites and then was also wondering about the differences between the years. So the 532 is the same year as the 510 then. Do you know the models of the other ones? and what the basic differences were per year? I've heard that the Elite 520HD was probably the best of the Elite HD rear projection sets, is that your opinion? Again I appreciate your input Bob. You provide a valuable source of information to us video junkies.

Mr Bob

12-09-06, 02:09 PM

Right, I was aware that they are model years as I was just trying to find out the corresponding regular Pioneer line to the different year Elites and then was also wondering about the differences between the years. So the 532 is the same year as the 510 then. Do you know the models of the other ones? and what the basic differences were per year? I've heard that the Elite 520HD was probably the best of the Elite HD rear projection sets, is that your opinion? Again I appreciate your input Bob. You provide a valuable source of information to us video junkies.

I don't have a s manual for the 520's, only for the 510 lineup, so can't tell ya. Could be that they disco'd the series you have, after the x10 lineup model year. Or that there may have been a 533 the following year, to your 532, etc.

Hopefully somebody else can chime in here and answer for you.

The final-year x30s had a feature the x20's and x10's didn't have, which was a dynamite upconverting circuit for anything 480 - i or p - which could bump it up to a VERY respectable looking 1080i. Markedly better looking than its 480p final image, and the 480p of the 2 model years before.

Mr Bob

PRO710HD

12-09-06, 04:43 PM

Mr Bob

12-09-06, 05:09 PM

Hi Bob;

Few questions please.

I'm assuming that I have to remove the protective screen first before removing the actual front screen so I can clean the mirror/lens right?

I know you posted this before but can you explain how to remove the main screen again Please. I'm planning on using my Sprayway to clean the tops of the lens and the aluminum mirror...this is OK right?

The screen frame comes off via 4 big screws that hold it on, under the speaker grill, which is very hard to get off, but does pry/snap off.

Then once the frame is removed, loosen all the screws in their slots - don't remove - and each of the plates holding the lenticular/fresnel sandwich will slide to the side and come off. The exception is the far upper left screw, which will be in a hole. Remove it and instead put it where the screws for the rest of the plates are.

Don't remove the upper middle plate until you are ready to remove the screen.

The sides need to come all the way off, their screws are into holes only, not slots like the rest are.

I would recommend mittens, so no hand grease gets on the lenticular or the fresnel.

Yes Sprayway is the best.

Mr Bob

Mr Bob

12-09-06, 06:01 PM

I will be in Portland OR for Xmas from the 20th to the 28th.

Anyone who wants calibration or repair work done on their HDreadys while I'm there, should get ahold of me posthaste.

One more thing.

ALL CRT RPTVs need professional-grade optics cleaning every few years, due to the ionization caused by the 30K of HV inside, inherent in CRT use. This turns your optics into powerful dust magnets every minute the set is on. I recommend getting it done every year, which will keep it looking fresh and young forever.

If yours is 3 years old or older and you have not had your optics cleaned you are WAY behind, and are not seeing your set looking as it should. There's a bleariness to your pic that you shouldn't have to tolerate. Having your optics cleaned is like fast forwarding out of the underwater murky scenes in Finding Nemo to the crystal clear out of water scenes later on in the movie. It makes a dazzling difference in your picture.

Be sure to contact me for optics cleaning, even if you don't intend to have a calibration done on your set, if you own a CRT RPTV of any age past 2 years old. It is a fraction of the cost of a full calibration, and what it does cost should be simply chalked up to periodic maintenance of a multi-thousand dollar piece of gear.

Mr Bob

bweissman

12-11-06, 06:22 PM

I'm assuming that I have to remove the protective screen first before removing the actual front screen so I can clean the mirror/lens right?
You should not only remove the protective screen, you should discard it unless you have small children or large dogs. All it does is add glare. I took mine off and never replaced it about 5 minutes after getting my 610. Just MHO.

Once you've removed the glare screen, you do not need to fully remove the actual screen to get to the innards. It's much easier simply to slide it halfway left and then halfway right. Also, while you're in there, you can hand-focus the lenses if you leave the screen halfway on. Just make sure all the side screws are removed so you don't scratch the screen on them when you slide it.

Mr Bob

12-11-06, 06:55 PM

Just make sure all the side screws are removed so you don't scratch the screen on them when you slide it.

You got that right! I didn't, once, I was so distracted, and caused a huge scar across the fresnel when sliding it! Had to entirely replace it.

Also, NEVER remove the back of an Elite HDready RPTV. You'll be picking up the pieces afterwards.

Mr Bob

PRO710HD

12-11-06, 06:55 PM

Mr Bob

12-11-06, 06:58 PM

bweissman

12-11-06, 07:23 PM

Thanks Bweissman.

Question though. How do I do the hand-focus of the lenses and what does that buy me? Is that something done in the service menu (which I haven't done and really don't know how to get into it)? I've only attempted to do the main convergence and a tiny bit of the multi-point convergence before giving up (that's a pain in the arse!)The lenses physically rotate in their mounts to focus, just like an old manual 35mm camera lens. They are held in place with wing nuts. All you do is loosen the wing nuts, rotate the lenses to get them focussed, and re-tighten the nuts. What it buys you is a better image, just as focusing a camera gets you a better image.

There's also an electronic focus, very simple, three small knobs (just make sure they're the right three). You should perform both focus procedures at the same time. Mr. Bob is right that focusing changes the size of the beams. That's pretty much the definition of focusing; you want to get the beams as small (focused, non-blurry) as possible. Some people have said you should slightly defocus blue to get it as bright as the other two colors, but I haven't found that necessary on my 610.

Have you had the 710 long? I've had my Elite almost 6 years and I find I still need to tweak the multi-point convergence every few weeks. I find the single-point convergence almost useless and can pretty much do the multi-point convergence in my sleep. If you think user-mode convergence is a pain, you should definitely not attempt service mode. And I've probably already given you too much information. ;)

PRO710HD

12-11-06, 08:23 PM

bweissman

12-11-06, 09:21 PM

Well I've had my 710 since brand new back in 2000. I'm sure it's completely out of specs and focus but I think I'll be passing on the calibration. I don't think I have what it takes or the patience to get it done. I'm hoping that just cleaning the mirror and tops of the lens will make a major improvement. The picture on HD looks pretty darn good to me but I'm sure with the full focusing/calibration can look stunning like MR BOB has said. I just don't want to invest that much into a 6 yr old RPTV at this point.

Too bad you or Bob didn't live in my neighborhood because that would bring down the cost of performing the calibrations. I'm sure I could work out a decent deal with a bribe on the side for a few brews!! That would definitely be worth it! :D
Hmm, you seem to know me pretty well... I'm easily bribed with a few (high quality) brews. I'm also retired and, perversely enough, enjoy tuning these TVs. (My wife thinks I'm nuts, of course.)

When you go in, you may be surprised and not find all that much dust on the mirror. The mirror is pretty slick and points down, so unless you have a smoker in the house, it stays mostly clean. A feather duster applied lightly is probably sufficient. The lenses are another story and collect dust like a magnet.

Cleaning will make a visible improvement. Calibration would make much more of an improvement, but hey, it's your TV... good luck and enjoy.

Mr Bob

12-12-06, 07:16 AM

Mr. Bob is right that focusing changes the size of the beams. That's pretty much the definition of focusing; you want to get the beams as small (focused, non-blurry) as possible. ;)

Actually, what I said was that refocusing any of the lenses changes the size of its IMAGE. Of course it changes the size of its beam, and we want the smallest spot size we can get. But the IMAGE SIZE gets changed as well on just that one color - one way or the other - throwing off an otherwise good convergence.

Refocusing 2 lenses in opposite directions doubles the amount of sizing that gets affected, one lens/color to another, doubling the potential resultant convergence error. But if that's the way the factory left it and both are out of focus in opposing directions, if you want it right that's what you have to do.

That's why I always do the mechanical focusing BEFORE any geometry or convergence gets done, in my calibrations.

Mr Bob

PRO710HD

12-15-06, 03:32 PM

Mr Bob

12-15-06, 04:02 PM

Need some help please.

I've gotten down to removing the 4 big screws that hold the frame on but the top of the frame won't budge, like it's hung up on something. How do I get the top free so I can properly remove the frame to get at the fresnel screws??

Everything is super tight in a Pioneer, and the top is no exception.

You have to pull the bottom out a bit, so it won't catch on anything below, then very carefully pry the frame off at the top, upwards, starting at the sides. Don't crack it.

I had one where I needed to pry it off so hard that it took the 2 screws holding the upper right hand plate that holds the lenticular screen with it, stripping them out bigtime. Had to start 2 new screw holes and put the plate in again half an inch to one side of where it had been, after PRYING it out of where it usually sits in the frame itself, since it wound up stuck in there after the frame finally gave.

Cleaning the optics on a Pioneer HDready is not a light-duty operation.

Mr Bob

PRO710HD

12-15-06, 05:46 PM

Mr Bob

12-16-06, 01:57 AM

Joeyz

12-22-06, 09:59 AM

Mr Bob

12-22-06, 02:19 PM

Thanks Bob.

I figured out about the tightness on the Pioneers the hard way. Got it off. Man, you're right. Everything on that set is close tolerance and tight fitting.

Cleaned the tops of the lens and mirror with Micro-fiber cloths and sprayway. Looked down into the lenses after that and I did see particles but couldn't really tell how dirty it was down there. I cut my losses at that and buttoned it back up...didn't feel brave enough to go futher!

Screen looks noticeably brighter now. Thanks to all including Bweissman and you Bob! Having a Cyber-beer for ya right now!

Chances are your deeper optics need it just as bad as your regular optics. I would heavily recommend you plunk down a tiny smidgen of $ into my paypal account and have a half-hour phone consultation with me. Call me for details.

I'll get you safely past any obstacles. At present your optics are only half as clean as they could be. Instead of saying it's noticeably brighter, your report should be that it is now crystal clear and you can see things in there you didn't know you were missing. That your picture is now leaping out at you.

If you can't say that, your optics need to be taken to the next level of clarity, till you can.

Mr Bob

Rino van Dam

12-24-06, 10:51 PM

Mr Bob

12-24-06, 11:45 PM

Wow! This is an amazing thread! My 710 stopped working a few weeks ago. I have an appointment scheduled with the Pioneer-recommended tech here in Atlanta for 1/5/07 - but that was before I read this thread :)

Here's what happened on my set:

- I remember the screen sometimes flickering, but attributed it to the cable box (Comcast Motorola 6412 HD), and I still think it was - don't remember any blue flashes as described in this thread
- other than that, I never had any problems with it
- one day, the set switched itself off, wouldn't come back on (red light on on front)
- now, when I switch the set on (with the button on the set itself), it will be green for about two seconds, then switch off again (red). Unplugging the set for some time does not remedy this problem; it will come on (green) for two seconds, then switch off (red)

How should I proceed from here? I'd like to be able to have an intelligent, technical conversation with the tech when he comes out to diagnose the problem. Open up the set and observe if any LED's are lit?

Any help greatly appreciated!

Thanks.

Rino

In a word, yes. I think if you do you'll find one lit on the convergence board, to the left up in the air and mounted vertically, when you open it up and observe from the back of the set. Along with another one lit up on the PS board itself, both red LEDs.

PS board probs are usually predicated with erratic, intermittently objectionable behavior.

Convergence probs are usually instantaneous, on Pios, and don't show cold solder joints at the conv ICs, like Mits's would. The convergence ICs simply go out - they short out and blow the +20 and -25v. fuses in the PS board, and from then on the set won't work at all.

Mr Bob

Rino van Dam

12-25-06, 12:00 PM

Ndna Jnz

12-25-06, 01:59 PM

Mr Bob

12-25-06, 02:35 PM

Well, I opened up the back of my 710HD. There were in fact two red LED's glowing me in the face, but I am not sure if they are both what you described.

I have taken some pictures and have put them up on a blog here (http://710hd.blogspot.com/)

There is one LED lit on the PS board, and one on the board right next to it. I didn't see any other LED's.

(The pictures on the blog (http://710HD.blogspot.com) are of a much higher resolution)

http://bp2.blogger.com/_W5lRc-3iK4g/RZABdplms6I/AAAAAAAAAAM/t5LdjqoMGeo/s320/710HD_Boards_0770.JPG

http://bp3.blogger.com/_W5lRc-3iK4g/RZABt5lms7I/AAAAAAAAAAY/DdULiMJ3QmQ/s320/710HD_Boards_0771.JPG

If you'd like to get some pix of your boards without the flash, we'd be abler to see the LEDs that are lit up. It would require a tripod, and probably using timer mode setting, so there would be no camera shake to have to deal with.

Since the board in question is the deflection board, I don't know if there will be any simple way of handling this for you. Many things could cause this shutdown problem when you factor in the deflection board, but then the causes would usually be on that board, as I think about it. You could always buy both of those boards from Pioneer and replace them both at once, and you'd probably be fine.

Or if you are handy, you could resolder the PS board so you wouldn't have to buy both.

The red failure LED on the PS board will always go on whenever there is a problem with boards elsewhere in the unit, where their LEDs go on too. So your PS board may actually still be OK as we speak.

I would order the deflection board, put it in there, then go from there. Pioneer boards are returnable, if not damaged by you in the process.

Mr Bob

Mr Bob

12-25-06, 02:39 PM

and still now, the set does not turn itself off any more. Now when I turn it on, the green (front panel) LED stays on, but there is no picture. Instead, there are a rainbow of colors around the outside edges of the screen. No one here seems to have had this problem. When someone here posted that Pioneer finally acknowledged there was a problem with these sets, I called them and got a case number. I was told someone would call me back in 3 to 5 days. I read on this thread that some people were not getting a call back for a couple of weeks. So I waited, waited, and waited some more. After 6 weeks, I finally called them back. The guy on the phone said someone should have called me a long time ago and he did not know why no one did. He said he would put a comment in the file so it would get bumped to the top of the queue. That was 2 weeks ago. And now that I am hearing that Pioneer is now telling people to split the cost of the labor, I am thinking I may just buy new boards (power supply board first) and swap them out myself. I am just tired of waiting. My tv has not been watchable at all for 3 months now. I hope your experience is better than mine. By the way, how old is your tv?

Have you tried different inputs? Sounds like you have convergence problems, but on an input that is currently inactive and thus blank.

If you order a new convergence board you may have to start from scratch on your entire geometry/convergence paradigm for all inputs/scanrates/aspect ratios of your set. That's an incredible set up job, and only I and a few others could pull it off. Even I would rather not, but would do so if absolutely necessary.

Whenever the conv is concerned there are special considerations concerning the eeprom that presently contains all your g/c info in there, and transferring it to any new board installed that is in the conv system. This maintains your present g/c system for your set, usually requiring only relatively minor trimup, rather than starting from absolute scratch.

Mr Bob

Rino van Dam

12-25-06, 10:32 PM

If you'd like to get some pix of your boards without the flash, we'd be abler to see the LEDs that are lit up. It would require a tripod, and probably using timer mode setting, so there would be no camera shake to have to deal with.

Since the board in question is the deflection board, I don't know if there will be any simple way of handling this for you. Many things could cause this shutdown problem when you factor in the deflection board, but then the causes would usually be on that board, as I think about it. You could always buy both of those boards from Pioneer and replace them both at once, and you'd probably be fine.

Or if you are handy, you could resolder the PS board so you wouldn't have to buy both.

The red failure LED on the PS board will always go on whenever there is a problem with boards elsewhere in the unit, where their LEDs go on too. So your PS board may actually still be OK as we speak.

I would order the deflection board, put it in there, then go from there. Pioneer boards are returnable, if not damaged by you in the process.
Mr Bob

Thank you very much for your help, it is highly appreciated!

I will be out of town until 1/4, so there's not much I can do right now. I intend to let the tech make his own observations/conclusions on 1/5, and take it from there. If I don't like what I hear from him, I'll start by ordering the deflection board and replacing it myself. I work on the innards of PC's all the time, don't expect changing out the pioneer's board is much different.

Again, thank you very much. My wife laughed at the idea that I would get an answer on Christmas day - her jaw dropped when she saw the reply :D

Mr Bob

12-26-06, 07:22 AM

Again, thank you very much. My wife laughed at the idea that I would get an answer on Christmas day - her jaw dropped when she saw the reply :D

Being in a town other than your own with family for Xmas, occasionally leaves time - requires time! - for short bursts away, to ground yourself and be in touch with others for a bit...

:D

Mr Bob

PS - and no, it's not all that different from computers, changing out those boards. For you it will be a piece of cake.

LCK 610HD

12-27-06, 09:00 AM

If you'd like to get some pix of your boards without the flash, we'd be abler to see the LEDs that are lit up. It would require a tripod, and probably using timer mode setting, so there would be no camera shake to have to deal with.

Since the board in question is the deflection board, I don't know if there will be any simple way of handling this for you. Many things could cause this shutdown problem when you factor in the deflection board, but then the causes would usually be on that board, as I think about it. You could always buy both of those boards from Pioneer and replace them both at once, and you'd probably be fine.

Or if you are handy, you could resolder the PS board so you wouldn't have to buy both.

The red failure LED on the PS board will always go on whenever there is a problem with boards elsewhere in the unit, where their LEDs go on too. So your PS board may actually still be OK as we speak.

I would order the deflection board, put it in there, then go from there. Pioneer boards are returnable, if not damaged by you in the process.

Mr Bob
LCK610HD We are having this same problem with our PRO610HD.I resoldered the PS board no luck. So ordered DEFLECTION BOARD just opened last night only 4 heat sinks ,old board has 5! Pioneer customer service opens soon i will call and ask why the missing heat sink....Also there is a crt grd wire that leds up out of sight ..Do you need to remove the screen to disconnect and reconnect this wire when changing out the board???

Mr Bob

12-27-06, 10:48 AM

LCK610HD We are having this same problem with our PRO610HD.I resoldered the PS board no luck. So ordered DEFLECTION BOARD just opened last night only 4 heat sinks ,old board has 5! Pioneer customer service opens soon i will call and ask why the missing heat sink....Also there is a crt grd wire that leds up out of sight ..Do you need to remove the screen to disconnect and reconnect this wire when changing out the board???

I believe that wire clips on up there, possibly on the wire braid that surrounds the CRTs themselves for grounding purposes.

No, you should not need to remove the screen, but if you do, it's not all that big a deal. Just can't picture why you'd have to. Removing the front panel down below, to get to the CRT rears, does not require removing the screen -

Mr Bob

Joeyz

01-01-07, 08:52 AM

Another Pioneer 510 Elite owner with the light/dark/shutdown problem. I spoke with Pioneer the other day, and they said thier aware of the problem. They gave me a case # and said someone would contact me in 3-5 business days. They also said they will pay for the parts and I pay the labor, or if its just labor they will pay half. I've had focus issue's since day one(April 2000) . But the service tech blamed it on my cable company(Comcast). Like a fool I believed him!! I've talked to several tech's lately, and none of them want to touch the lenses! Strange coming from a tech... I found this forum a few weeks ago, and want to say a special thanks to everyone who has posted here. Hats off to Mr. Bob, B Weissman, and lastly to the cool guy who created this thread. I'll update when the TV is up and running again.

The Tech came Sat. morning with a new power board. After installing the new board, the green light came on but shut off after 2 seconds. Since the new board wouldn't work, he just soldered mine. E3 had 2 bad connections, IC202 had another 2. So he just went over the entire board. Its seems to be fine now. I watched football most of Sat night and all day Sunday. No flicker, and the converge seems to be very solid now. Before repairing the board, the converge would slip every hour. Not just a little but alot. My daughter inlaw watched the Bears in HD(OTA) with me last night, and she was in awe at the picture. The Tech said he would order another board from Pioneer, but I wonder if thats wise.
I thought I might just leave everthing alone and keep the new board on the side just in case.
Any thoughts on this?

billythekid

01-01-07, 03:34 PM

Hi all,
I got a form letter from Pioneer asking about my satisfaction with their customer service. Since I did not take their offer to pay for part of the repairs to my 610, I advised them I would no longer be a customer after buying their products for almost 40 years. It is sad that they are not interested in keeping customers. Anyone had all required work paid for by Pioneer????

Mr Bob

01-01-07, 10:40 PM

The Tech came Sat. morning with a new power board. After installing the new board, the green light came on but shut off after 2 seconds. Since the new board wouldn't work, he just soldered mine. E3 had 2 bad connections, IC202 had another 2. So he just went over the entire board. Its seems to be fine now. I watched football most of Sat night and all day Sunday. No flicker, and the converge seems to be very solid now. Before repairing the board, the converge would slip every hour. Not just a little but alot. My daughter inlaw watched the Bears in HD(OTA) with me last night, and she was in awe at the picture. The Tech said he would order another board from Pioneer, but I wonder if thats wise.
I thought I might just leave everthing alone and keep the new board on the side just in case.
Any thoughts on this?

If he resoldered the whole board and it works now, let him have the new board back and be done with it. Reorder one in the future if you need to, but I don't think you'll ever see any problems again, unless he missed something in there that could go bad later. As in those super-small conn's, dozens at a time in their own separate sections. They could degrade later, if left untreated now.

If he resoldered EVERYTHING, I think you'll be in good shape forever, on that board.

Mr Bob

PS - One of those regulators whose conn's go bad provides power to the convergence section. When it goes out occasionally because of the cold solder joints on it, the convergence goes out as well.

When he got that regulator resoldered - possibly IC202, I don't keep track - he fixed your convergence intermittency problems as well.

ctvince

01-05-07, 12:20 PM

ctvince

01-05-07, 12:23 PM

Also, could someone give suggestions as to a replacement? I'm leaning towards a DLP rear projection either from Mitsu or Sony from the little I've researched thus far in the same size range. (pioneer is no longer going to be a product I ever buy again, 5 years and my 5K TV is a piece of junk even if it was really good during that time.)

Mr Bob

01-05-07, 02:14 PM

So, I resoldered my power supply board (Pro 510) a couple months ago and got rid of my brightness/flashing problem. Well, three or four weeks later something else started going on. I was getting horizontal lines near the top and bottom and my blue was acting whacky. It is way out of focus and would keep popping back into focus and then out of focus especially around bright objects. I just had the technician come out and he diagnosed it as the Blue CRT needed to be replaced. He said he narrowed it down by switching boards for the other colors and also was somehow able to test the convergence board. Either way I believe him. The total is going to be $800 to fix it. I've pretty much made up my mind that I'm ditching the TV, but does anyone have any suggestions? Even if the suggestion is how do I get rid of a big box in my family room.

I was all set to do this on a Mit with the same symptoms recently, and found that the anode cap wire - the thick red one that carries the 30KV - was not making proper contact with the flyback or HV distributor, where it was plugged in.

I unplugged it from there an examined the plug itself, and found tarnished evidence of arc'ing, plus it was bent over, at an ineffective angle, not allowing complete contact in there.

I burnished it up till it was shiny again, straightened out the plug metal part, re-inserted it, and everything worked smoothly from then on. Have not heard from that customer since. About a year ago.

Don't know, but you might want to check that out before junking your $5K set.

Mr Bob

JimB

01-05-07, 02:40 PM

ctvince

01-05-07, 04:41 PM

Mr. Bob,

Where would that wire be? Is it running to the Blue CRT? I'll take a look tonight and see if I can locate it and see if there is a similar evidence of arcing.

Johnla

01-05-07, 10:38 PM

Don't know, but you might want to check that out before junking your $5K set.

Correction what used to be a $5k set, and that was quite awhile ago. And I'm sure I was not the only one that did not pay anywhere near MSRP for my set. Lets face it, sooner or later if faced with certain high repair charges it can rapidly reach a point to where these sets are just not worth repairing anymore.

Mr Bob

01-06-07, 06:00 AM

Mr. Bob,

Where would that wire be? Is it running to the Blue CRT? I'll take a look tonight and see if I can locate it and see if there is a similar evidence of arcing.

One thick red wire goes to each of the CRTs, and implants in the top of each. They all go to a distributor, sometimes within the flyback transformer, sometimes separate from it.

It's where the one from the blue gun plugs into the distributor, of whichever type.

Mr Bob

Mr Bob

01-06-07, 06:12 AM

Correction what used to be a $5k set, and that was quite awhile ago. And I'm sure I was not the only one that did not pay anywhere near MSRP for my set. Lets face it, sooner or later if faced with certain high repair charges it can rapidly reach a point to where these sets are just not worth repairing anymore.

Yes, and hopefully that would correspond to the set actually wearing out.

That point is far from happening on the sets in this thread and the 20s and
30s, esp. in the line this thread is centered on, the 510/610/710 line, the one farthest back. Properly treated, they have an absolute minimum of 10 year lifespan, capable of looking fresh and new at all times during that time span.

The repairs commonly listed on this thread are of nominal cost compared to what the unit cost initially. Not high repair charges. High repair charges would be when a gun goes out, or for any other reason the set needs to be regunned. That usually totals out a set like this. Not the stuff we are seeing here on this thread.

If the fixed pixel competition out there was actually improving over the CRT mode on getting a picture to the screen, I would be in agreement with you, because the marketplace determines the monetary value of something, it's never a set static valuation.

But fully calibrated CRT is still the best viewing out there. And it's not just me saying so. So apples to apples, I think a NOMINAL repair charge on a $5K piece of equipment is worth it. No, not a high repair charge, but yes, a nominal repair charge.

But that's just me...

Mr Bob

PamW

01-06-07, 09:17 AM

Bob,

What is your definition of "nominal"? I, too, want to keep my set as long as possible, but when is the repair $$ too high on this set (Mine is the 710)?

Mr Bob

01-06-07, 12:44 PM

Bob,

What is your definition of "nominal"? I, too, want to keep my set as long as possible, but when is the repair $$ too high on this set (Mine is the 710)?

On a set like a 710, I would be willing to go $750-850 for a needed repair, if it were my set. But the repairs listed as needed on this thread I usually remedy by charging travel plus $350 plus parts. Usually the repair end comes out at around $500, which I consider very nominal for a repair on a $6000 unit that is still capable of showing a picture that is even in present day time, better than the one you got out of the box years ago.

Whatever ages on these units ages gracefully, and that aging can be countered by cleaning and calibration till your set is at least 10 years old, under proper usage conditions, and carefulness about screenburn.

If you've taken care of your set properly, it is still capable of a simply stunning picture, rivalling the best new sets out there, and surpassing many of them.

How much is that worth?

Mr Bob

PamW

01-06-07, 03:26 PM

Thanks, Bob! :)

Trigger445

01-09-07, 02:18 AM

I have owned a Pro-510HD for about 5.5 years. After about 5 years, I had the "blue flash" and I fixed it myself, using instructions from this website--otherwise I may have simply gotten rid of the set. Well, I have always been impressed with the HD picture, and thought the SD picture was OK, until yesterday. I had calibrated it myself fairly well with the Avia disk, and had surface cleaned my optics once. However, now, all I can say is "wow, I never knew what I was missing"--I am amazed. Why? Well, yesterday, Mr Bob came and calibrated the set, cleaned the optics, and did an overscan reduction on my TV.

The basic cleaning of the optics is included in his basic calibration package (wiping off the top of the lenses and mirrors)(I had done this once before myself about 1 year ago, and it made a nice difference then, but was filthy again), but I also opted for the deep cleaning (removing the lens and cleaning the bottom of it and the convex below the lens)(wow, it was really dirty). I think this made the most "bang for the buck" difference, as the colors are now much more vibrant and alive than ever! If you have only a limited amount of money, at least contact him and at least have him "consult" with you on doing it yourself, or if you can, fly him and and have him do it--you'll be amazed.

The next best thing in my opinion was the calibration itself, which included mechanical focus of the lenses. My red and green were off a bit, and the blue was way off. Using his cantelever technique, he adjusted the red and green lenses to a sharp focus, and got the blue where it needed to be. Once the lenses were focused, he adjusted the convergence and at the same time took in the overscan reduction (overscan reduction was for additional price). With the overscan reduction, I have about 2 more inches worth of picture on the top and sides, and no longer is the scrolling box scores and headline news ticker cut off--it is like zooming out on the picture that is already there, effectively giving you more "pixels" on your fixed screen size. The overscan reduction took quite some time for him to align everything along the perimeter, as it takes in all the errors that are inherent at the perimeter in the design (which is why they overscan the picture to begin with, so you don't see the errors). Finally, he adjusted the greyscale, getting it much more of a true gray and the color/brightness/contrast/sharpness. The basic calibration (everything in this paragraph, except the overscan reduction) was the "second most bang for the buck" in my opinion, and the overscan reduction is a nicety, but certainly not required if you are trying to save a buck.

He was at my house for about 7 hours, and the picture I have right now on HD is absolutely amazing--far better than before (and I thought it was great to begin with)--breathtaking and truly vibrant, and the standard def picture is now great too. Even though he concentrated his effort on 1080i full screen as my primary "scanrate" for the overscan reduction/geometry adjustment/color alignment, the optics cleaning and the focus are both universal in their "help" to the other scanrates (480I/P). I now see why everyone says the CRT is the best out there--I thought they were all crazy until I had it ISF calibrated professionally--Thanks Mr Bob!
Trigger

Mr Bob

01-09-07, 05:16 AM

One of the side benefits Trigger got was that his grayscales on 480i and p got done in the process of doing the HD, even tho he didn't pay for any work on 480. Pioneer HDreadys are built on a "layered" grayscale and colorations system, where STD - S-video - is the basis, and affects all other modes - like the 1080i, 480p and component vs. S. The grayscale for STD is done first because it sets all the others in the process, then I did the HD as well, which is built on top of the STD settings.

The grayscale and color/tint for HD also apply to 480p, so he got those as perks. We didn't do the geometry/convergence on 480, but he can correct that at will in his user advanced grid, at least on red and blue.

After I was done I said, "Let's slide these viewing chairs up a bit." I believe they were at 8' and went to 6', but I'll let him correct me on that if need be. When we did, he sat back and said, "It's remarkable, the picture looks just as good up here." What's that, a 25% increase in viewed picture size? I don't know if he'll keep it that way, as the room ergonomics may not allow for it, but he at least knows he CAN if he wishes!

It was quite a fun job, and the huge 3 course home cooked dinner his wife served all of us was just absolutely mouth watering, please convey that to her for me, Trigger. And your dew on my steak was absolutely fantastic. Solid pink all the way thru, melted in my mouth... I started anticipating every bite...

And thanks for the nod! If between us we can save just a few more Pioneer HDreadys owned by people who are at present still on the fence about whether to keep or trash their sets, your words will have been more powerful than you know.

;)

Mr Bob

Joeyz

01-09-07, 08:13 AM

Since my set was repaired, it really looks much better. SD is very good, and HD looks great. Here's my question. On closeup screenshots the picture is stunning, however when images are far away(especially on football games) thier a little blurry even in 1080. Can any adjustments correct this? Also, it looks as though the corners are a little out of focus. Converge is spot on. I really wish I could find a tech in the Chicago area that knew half as much as Mr BOB. Every tech I've talked to wants to either replace parts, or just clean the mirror and leave. They seem to be very uneducated on fine tuning these sets or are just out for a fast buck. Even the tech that resoldered my power board didn't want to look inside. He didn't seem to know anything about adjusting the lense's, So I didn't push him. I was happy to finally get rid of the flashes and the shutdowns. 2 weeks running everyday since the resolder, and not even a flicker.
Not sure what to do next......

ctvince

01-09-07, 09:45 AM

Mr. Bob,

You are da man! Last friday on your advise I took a look at the cable in the back of the set (red) and noticed a lot of carbon buildup all around the area. I got very excited thinking I might have the same issue as the Mitsu you referred to. I didn't get a chance yet to clean the cable, (been very busy on home project), but I wiggled it a little and then went back to the viewing and lo and behold the lines are gone and the blue intermittent focus is now staying focused. I still have to spend the time and clean the cable and the surrounding area, but I'm convinced this was the issue. Thanks so very much, I really didn't want to go out and buy a new set.

On a side note, when things slow down in a few weeks (before superbowl), I'd like to retain your services as a phone consultation to calibrate my set. What would your recommendation be for my set. Its 5 years old. Just 2 months ago I did the outer lens and mirror cleaning based upon your input. The lens' while dirty weren't terribly so, and the little I could see from the inside lens' didn't seem too dirty either. What would be the most bang for my buck that I can do over the phone?

Trigger445

01-09-07, 03:30 PM

Mr Bob,
Although we could have left the chairs at 5-6 feet, we did move them back so the room didn't "shrink" up so much. I am glad you enjoyed the dinner. I am certainly enjoying my "new" TV!

Joeyz,
The blurry far away images were also what I had, and my user convergence was also spot on, my avia calibration was spot on, but even then it was a major improvement with Mr. Bob's services. I suggest two things depending on your financial situation and mechanical abilities...either contact him and pay a consulting fee to have him help you through a thorough lens cleaning (top of lens and mirror is basic cleaning, but taking off the lenses and cleaning the underside and the convex lens) will help that problem some, and perhaps he can talk you through an electrostatic focus using 3 of the screw in/out electrostatic focus dashpots underneath the front speaker panel inside the wood panel covering (both of these will fix some of your problem, and should make a noticable difference for a relative low amount of money)(it won't help the mechanical focus, but it certainly won't hurt to have at least one of them right on), or better yet... 2) pay to fly him to Chicago and get the whole shebang (see if you can line up a couple of others for him near you, and the travel expenses won't be so much when split).

ctvince,
I was impressed when I had done my outer lens and miror cleaning myself last year. This year I was impressed x 5 when the deeper optics cleaning was done. If you can do the basic, you can do the deeper, especially with his help on the phone. That would be my suggestion to you, and it wouldn't cost very much at all over the phone, I don't think, and would only take you an hour or two start to finish.

Trigger

LCK 610HD

01-09-07, 03:51 PM

I believe that wire clips on up there, possibly on the wire braid that surrounds the CRTs themselves for grounding purposes.

No, you should not need to remove the screen, but if you do, it's not all that big a deal. Just can't picture why you'd have to. Removing the front panel down below, to get to the CRT rears, does not require removing the screen -

Mr Bob
LCK 610HD THANK YOU- Mr.Bob for all your help and all who have contributed to this thread. Pioneer sent another Def. board as the first one was missing a heat sink...I installed it... the 2 red LED lights no longer glowed...but the picture was not working so I removed the PS board again and soldered ALL E PINS and ALL COPPER COILS that i did not do the first time...reinstalled PS board ...PROBLEM SOLVED ...TV WORKS!!! My husband was happy to watch the bowl game (UF & OHIO) in HD...I had never soldered anything before...I'm a housewife, not an engineer....just so you know- this repair is do able(you can't make it worse than it is, if your going to order a PS board anyway give soldering the board a try first...THANKS AGAIN ....LCK 610HD

Mr Bob

01-10-07, 03:22 AM

LCK 610HD THANK YOU- Mr.Bob for all your help and all who have contributed to this thread. Pioneer sent another Def. board as the first one was missing a heat sink...I installed it... the 2 red LED lights no longer glowed...but the picture was not working so I removed the PS board again and soldered ALL E PINS and ALL COPPER COILS that i did not do the first time...reinstalled PS board ...PROBLEM SOLVED ...TV WORKS!!! My husband was happy to watch the bowl game (UF & OHIO) in HD...I had never soldered anything before...I'm a housewife, not an engineer....just so you know- this repair is do able(you can't make it worse than it is, if your going to order a PS board anyway give soldering the board a try first...THANKS AGAIN ....LCK 610HD

You've never soldered before???

Great work! I'm proud of you! Who says soldering is a man's job, anyway? When I worked at Tektronix, 95% of the board stuffers and correctors - involving resoldering and straightening the components after solder flow - in the section I worked in were women. I and the one other guy there were definitely in the minority.

Another professional grade CRT RPTV saved.

Now clean the optics and get a brand new looking set.

Mr Bob

Joeyz

01-10-07, 08:34 AM

Any Pioneer or Mits owners needing Mr BOB's service in the Chicago area, Lets get together and fly him in. If at least 2 or 3 of us get together and pay his airfare we could FINALLY get our HDTV's to look like they were meant to be and smoke all those problematic newer models. I for one am very thankful that Mr BOB is willing to help us. Now...Lets help him out!

ctvince

01-10-07, 09:07 AM

Mr Bob

01-10-07, 01:20 PM

Well, it doesn't appear I'm totally out of the woods yet. I pulled the cables out of the socket yesterday, cleaned and reinserted. The lines that were present are definitely gone, however, I still have problems with the blue focus. Whenever a bright object appears (especially near the edges) the blue seperates from the rest of the colors by anywhere from .25 to .5 inches creating a blue glow. I've gone into my convergence mode and aligned all my cross hairs, but the blue still separates. Could be my blue CRT is still shot. Mr. Bob, I do notice that there is a large amount of black (I'm assuming carbon) buildup around that "distrubutor" box. There's also something that looks like a transformer on that board that seams to be the originator of all the black stuff. This is right next to the main cable that goes to the other group of red cables. Maybe something is screwy here?

either way, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. My wife doesn't seem bugged by the glow. I might just live with it for awhile just to put off the cost of a new set for that much longer.

Thanks again for all the help. At least with the horizontal lines gone the picture is viewable.

If the blue glow appears on only one side or another of your images, then it's a convergence problem.

If on the other hand this glow appears on ALL sides of a white image, then the focus is still off. Could be the optical, could be the electrostatic. There are 2 focuses for all guns, and all focuses should be tight. Blue defocus is allowable to some degree on the electrostatic, but on the optical/mechanical, it should be just as tight as all the others, preferably via the Cantilever Technique.

Could be you have astigmatism problems and need that realigned. Could be that if yours is a 510, you'll never get all 3 side by side sections - left, center and right - of the blue correctly in focus, because of scheimpfluge issues. The 510 had problems with that, on the way the blue gun/lens assy. was designed. Improperly, on the blue.

It is realignable, but only with lots of work. The angle at which the lens meets the CRT face is off on the 510s, always has been. It CAN be corrected, but most owners leave it alone, because blue is a fill color rather than a structure color.

I hope you are viewing and seeing this objectionable phenom from your normal viewing distance. You'll never get rid of certain anomalies that are seen from 2' away. It's nature of the beast, on all projected material, that you must not get too close or you'll see things you aren't supposed to see when at normal viewing distances.

Mr Bob

ctvince

01-10-07, 04:03 PM

Mr. Bob,

Yes, the blue glow appears on only one side of the image. The further you get to the edge, the bigger the glow seems to be. I never saw this before. Is it possibly from my cable issue? Maybe my resoldering of the back of the power supply board? It seems to grow the brighter the image gets. Any chance this is something that can be handled by myself with your help on the phone?

bweissman

01-10-07, 07:39 PM

I was impressed when I had done my outer lens and miror cleaning myself last year. This year I was impressed x 5 when the deeper optics cleaning was done. If you can do the basic, you can do the deeper...
Would any of you who have done (or observed) the deep optics cleaning care to share how it's done?

I've done every possible tweak to my 610 except the deep optics cleaning. The service manual does not cover this type of cleaning and, while I'm not sure how to disassemble the lenses, I am sure I am capable of doing it once informed.

Noting that AVS Forum is primarily a user-to-user help forum (as opposed to being primarily an advertising venue for people who make a living as calibrators), I ask for instruction in this endeavor.

PamW

01-10-07, 08:58 PM

Would any of you who have done (or observed) the deep optics cleaning care to share how it's done?

I've done every possible tweak to my 610 except the deep optics cleaning. The service manual does not cover this type of cleaning and, while I'm not sure how to disassemble the lenses, I am sure I am capable of doing it once informed.

Noting that AVS Forum is primarily a user-to-user help forum (as opposed to being primarily an advertising venue for people who make a living as calibrators), I ask for instruction in this endeavor.
See page 22 of this thread - post 648.

Mr Bob

01-10-07, 10:49 PM

Mr. Bob,

It seems to grow the brighter the image gets. Any chance this is something that can be handled by myself with your help on the phone?
This would seem to point to internal arc'ing, inside the tube. If you have verified that the plug-in connector to the HV at that tube is not bad or tarnished, looks like you may indeed need a new tube, if the tech actually performed the "switch the CRT socket boards" test already.

You might try switching around the plug-ins on that HV distributor just to make sure the distributor is not at fault. But mark them first so you can put them back where they started, as minute differences in HV between them could cause sizing differences in your scanning, between one color's image and another.

Mr Bob

PS - make sure your blue anode wire is absolutely TOTALLY in. You may have to compare it to the other 2 to be sure, and may have to work the cap on it out from its end a bit, to get it to sink in there properly.

The huge layer of dust you mentioned is not what is causing the problems, and is always there near any 30KV generating device. It's called ionization. You can read about it on my website, if you wish.

Mr Bob

01-10-07, 11:15 PM

(as opposed to being primarily an advertising venue for people who make a living as calibrators)

I invite you to chart my free information on this board and others like it, vs. the information I have asked that you give me something for. I think you will find that the free stuff I have for years taken my precious and irreplaceable time disseminating to all the DIYers who follow this thread and others, has outpaced the smidgen of stuff I have voiced that I would like compensation for, by about 100 to 1.

I also invite you to chart how much I have learned from you guys, vs. how much you have learned from me. Yes, there are valuable things I have learned from you, but again, I think what I have taught you guys vs. what you have taught me would be about a 100:1 ratio.

Please don't begrudge me for desiring to be hired by the tiny percentage of people who read these boards but are not DIYers, nor for desiring to be taken care of, somehow, some way, when I spend hours and hours per week answering your questions with professional grade repair and calibration information. I would have thought those who had been helped by my advice and saved tons of money because of it, would have found a way to willingly give of themselves back to me, somehow, some way. But no, that doesn't happen. They take the information and run. Then I get called on the carpet by you for making a living doing repairs and calibrations and wishing to get a little something in return for it, when I give so much away, that hundreds of others at a time use to their own advantage, without a thought as to how much irreplaceable time it cost me to sit here and type it out, every day. If this is supposed to be a user to user sharing board, where's the love back, in my direction? What have you given back, to those whose words here have helped you?

Yes, I charge for what I do when I can, and I give the rest away. I would think you would be more appreciative of that than I see you as being, here. In fact I would think you would want to shove money at me, if you were really into equilateral exchange, and had saved money somehow, some way, due to my professional advice. I don't see that happening here.

What I see is a something for nothing mentality at work here, in your post where it's obvious that you want to be able to go around me if at all possible, and exclude me from the equation. Not equilateral exchange.

The irony of it all is, Pam directed you to MY post on the subject!

I'll quiet down now...

Mr Bob

ctvince

01-12-07, 09:27 AM

ctvince

01-12-07, 10:31 AM

Just called up Pioneer. They said that cable was a non suppliable cable, so I'll have to see if I can make it work as it is. Any input as to how to better access that area would be tremendously helpful.

thanks

ctvince

01-12-07, 11:11 AM

OK, I'm gonna try and post an image of the clip. If it works you'll see the two areas where the arcing has removed material making nice little round cuts into the clip. This makes it really difficult to insert into the socket since those new features act as shoulders.

Mr Bob

01-12-07, 01:13 PM

Mr. Bob,

I spent 2 hours last night troubleshooting my 510. I did as you suggested and switched the cables from the distributor and each time the blue still “glowed” so I knew it wasn’t the distributor. My last hope was that it was maybe the connection where the cable meets the gun. It is the most difficult task trying to access that area of the set. If you have any input I would greatly appreciate it. There’s a big metal “box” with all sorts of cards and wires and heat sinks on it right in front(back) of the blue gun. Anyways, I followed the cable by hand to where it connected to the gun and found the rubber boot that covers the connector. I wiggled it a little and was surprised to find that I heard a bunch of metal scraping and it felt really loose. I had to pry off the boot as it appears its siliconed(RTV?) to the gun body. The connector fell right off. Upon inspection it appears the connector hadn’t been seated properly in the hole of the gun body and only the boot had kept it in contact. As a result there are a couple holes in the connector clip from the arcing which makes it next to impossible to reinsert properly into the gun housing hole especially since I can’t gain easy access to it. I was able to briefly get a “decent” contact and when I turned on the set the blue was back in focus and not fluctuating, but I could hear the arcing so quickly turned it off and disconnected the clip. Do you or anyone else know of a place I can order a replacement cable? If you’re interested I can take a picture of the clip to show the damage, but I’ve never posted an image on this site before. Also, when I reconnect the clip, what should I use for the silicone around the boot to replace the goop that was there?

Thanks again

Vince

Wow, man, you did it! That was exactly what I was talking about, only at the other end of that wire. I have never seen it go bad at the suction cup end before, but it makes perfect sense.

That plug-in obviously needs to be tight in there, which is why it is on a spring clip kind of basis. If that spring tension was not ever there, then there would never have been a tight bond between those connections, explaining the holes bit into it by the arcing in there, under the suction cup.

If you widen out the spring clip part to where you can get a nice tight, highly "sprung" fit in there between that clip and what it's supposed to connect with in there, you won't have to buy a new thick red HV connector wire. Sure there may be holes in the clip, but as long as there is enough metal left to form a good strong bond between the metal pieces in there, and to transfer all the HV without breakdown - further arcing - you'll be home free.

The reason it's still arcing in there is because you have disturbed the dried, fully cured silicone seal bonding the suction cup to the glass surface of the CRT. HV is leaking out all around it now, I have seen this happen before. You're not quite out of the woods yet, but you're close. That part of it has to be thoroughly sealed/insulated, or its HV will instantly creep under it and find its way out to the closest ground point.

Bend those spring clips outward to get them to bond as tightly as possible, then go to any hardware store and get some ordinary silicon caulking compound, the kind that sets up nice and rubbery once thoroughly dried. Apply it very thickly all around the edge of the suction cup, then insert the clip into the hole, making that tight bond I was telling you about. Avoid getting any of the silicon on the clips or in the hole itself, because obviously the silicon is a heavy duty insulator, and you want intimate metal to metal or metal to glass contact going on in there inside the hole, undisturbed at the metal parts.

Then let it set up for 24 hours before turning it on again. You can turn it on for just a few seconds for testing, but if you leave it on for any longer than that, the silicon will slowly travel away from the HV, and thin out the thickness you are trying to maintain at the bond between the suction cup and the glass it hits. I have actually seen the silicon move, when turned on before it has had a chance to set up. You may even find arcing going on during this test, but all you want to see is what you tested for already, that the image is stable once again. Should take just a few seconds. Don't take anything as a completely valid test until the goop has had a chance to fully cure.

Replacement of any CRT, even just one of 3, is a major, expensive undertaking, requiring re-setup of that gun afterwards if you're a videophile, on the grayscale and the focusing/geometry/convergence. Usually they just swap it out and let it go at that, techs rarely do the kind of in-depth work you have done. Needing it done usually totals out a set, as owners rarely want to fork over what it would cost to do so. These types of problems are all covered by the new gun having its anode cap already factory silicon'd in place when you get it, ready to install. Most people would take your tech's recommendation as gospel.

You, on the other hand, have proven that your CRT is not bad after all, that it was the wiring going to it that was bad. Shame on that tech, for trying to stick you for an entire CRT replacement and setup set of charges, when this was all it was.

You're on your way to saving your TV. Excellent work.

:cool:

Mr Bob

PS - just saw your pic, everything I wrote above was before you submitted it. It's different from what I usually see, so scratch some of what I said above.

Can you get me a full-frontal version of that clip? A critical part is not able to show, because of the angle at which you took it.

I usually see a set of 2 of those things in there - sure one was not broken off? You usually squeeze them together when and if removing them, to get the clip/barb sections to the center of the hole, where it is widest. Since there are supposed to be 2 of them and they are of one piece of metal made of steel, one each will hit each side when their springiness expands them properly, which is usually accomplished just by snapping the dang thing in.

If there was never any second one in there, that would explain why this happened - there was never any strong, intimate contact to begin with, it was just floating in there - and was the manufacturer's fault for letting it get installed in that condition in the first place. It is a blatant manufacturing error of the highest sort, and Pioneer should step up to the plate and take care of you on it. Of course we all know the success rate of THAT kind of request of Pioneer...

You can solder something in there to help, there's no heat generated at that part of your set. If you can solder up something really strong in there, like maybe some spring-steel spring that would expand and take up the slack and provide that intimate contact, it might do the trick. Usually that twin set of clips has spring action that embeds it strongly to the sides of the hole. All you need is strong intimate contact. Feel free to get creative now, you're on the home stretch.

Remember, this op is usually never done, and when it is, it is done outside the chassis, where there is ready access. I hope you don't have to remove the CRT array to get to wherever it is you need to get to, because that's a tall order just by itself.

ctvince

01-12-07, 02:45 PM

Mr Bob

01-12-07, 06:11 PM

Mr. Bob,

Thanks for all the input. I'll need it. I just came back from my lunch break and got a lot accomplished I went to a local electronics store and then a TV repair shop. The TV repair shop guy took a look at the cable and pulled out a similar one from his back room. It has the same connector (spring) that the Pioneer one has, but the other end is different. I'll take the new spring clip and boot and put it on the old wire set. Its a good thing I brought it to him though as he pointed out why the failure occured. See attached picture. Everything becomes clear now. The previous image shows the "holes" from the arcing of the connectors. This is because when the unit was assembled this clip wasn't seated properly and created those holes in that area. As a result the whole thing was standing out further than it should have and the sealant didn't seal properly resulting in the wire corroding and failing (see attached image). I agree, shame on Pioneer for this lousy assembly. I'll be sending them these images to Pioneer soon.

To your point about the connector being two clips, yes they are, the image just didn't show it clearly. The new clip is the same. I just need to remove the old boot and clip, get some good copper exposed, take the new one and solder it onto the wire and crimp it (plus replace boot). Then I'll follow your procedure for putting it back together. I ended up again at lunch picking up some RCA white silicone goopy stuff from the electronic store that I guess is rated for those high temps/volts so I think I have everything I need. My biggest problem will be as you pointed out. Trying to do all this in that tight little spot and be certain that I got enough silicone on it so this doesn't happen again.

Wish me luck. BTW, how long should the set be unplugged to be assured there's not voltage locked up in there in some capacitor or what not?

Thanks again for all this. If everything goes well I'll let you know and I'll take the next step to getting the set back up to good viewing.

Cheers.

Vince

Bad/dangling/floating connections don't typically metasticize into corrosion. The sealant is strictly for insulating the HV. There are many conn's in your set which are exposed to the air. Why this particular one corroded is beyond me.

The HV trickles out after the set is turned off, it's not like the jug is just sitting there with nothing conn'd to it, like it would be if isolated and thrown away at the dump, where if not conn'd to anything such a charge could last in the jug for weeks. We are instructed in electronics school to take an icepick to that hole the anode cap goes into, if junking a CRT of any kind, to let out the vacuum, which is what is responsible for keeping the charge alive. Of course these days I should say before dropping at your local recycler...

I'd say staying away a half hour after being unplugged would be good. It's always good to ground any wire like that promptly upon removing it from its connection. The braid around the CRT and its metal housing are usually prime grounding points.

Grounding a jug positively neutralizes its latent charge.

I didn't do that once and when removing that wire from where it was threaded here and there across the chassis so I could regun a Runco projector, it scraped across the digital board and toasted it.

Some of my experiences you learn from me have been very expensive in the learning...

Mr Bob

Mr Bob

01-12-07, 08:15 PM

I am still in Vegas, CES ended yesterday, and I just spent about a day's worth of time calibrating a guy's Hitachi in Vegas.

I went to do the optics cleaning, and that all went smoothly.

Then I went to check the deeper optics, and had to call the owner over for this. I could not believe it.

All 3 of his guns had been replaced about a year ago when one was bad, and since he was on an extended service plan, the tech offered to replace all 3 since the unit was 3 years old.

OK. At 3 years it's a good idea to do all 3 if you do one, since that one will have had 3 years less life on it when it's 5 or so years old than the other 2, which will then be 8 years old.

The tech obviously thought the coolant covers were dirty, because what both I and the owner saw when we looked into each lens was thousands of magnified scratches on the coolant cover. On each gun.

So he authorized me to go in on one gun, to check it out for sure. I removed the red lens, licked my thumb and applied that wetness to a part of the coolant cover up next to the edge, and a black spot the size of a thumbprint was then visible, as is usual when the deeper optics are dirty. Then as we watched, the wetness disappeared, and it went back to being scuffed.

Obviously the tech who did this job knew nothing about optics cleaning, and has now permanently ruined those coolant covers. The owner was on the phone to CC first thing in the morning to get the ball rolling on a fresh set of CRTs for his set, around a year after the last ones had been installed. And feeling very indignant that how he has lost the chance for all my services right now while I am in town, because replacement of all 3 CRTs will require a redo of lots of what I do in there. He had me for no charge on travel this time. Unfortunately that won't happen again until CES next year, a year away. He's a fellow videophile, like all of us here. He won't be able to wait a year.

This severely curtailed what I could do for his set, under these circumstances. He had already incurred regular optics cleaning plus one lens of deeper optics cleaning, and authorized a reduced amount $ for grayscale work, and full $ for color decoder realignment, since that won't change with new guns, I would fine tune it again for free if necessary - and I threw in some convergence work. We can only hope that the new guns he is going to have installed as soon as he can, will not derail the grayscale I just completed, too much. It will definitely need work on the convergence, of course.

Just wanted you to know - for those of you who don't - that even qualified repair service techs are sometimes abysmally ignorant of some of the finer points of making a CRT RPTV look the best it can be, and how to safely go about doing so. I would recommend that anyone riding the fence about whether to do their optics cleaning - or deeper optics cleaning - on their own, vs. having it done, just know that you're taking the efficacy of your RPTV's optics in your hands.

In this case he had a chance to have me really trick out his set, and now neither of us knows when I will be in town again, after tomorrow. The set looks head and shoulders better than it did when I arrived, of course, and the scratches only appear as a raising of the black floor, as if this were a bulb-driven fixed pixel, but without the raised overall light level that bulbs bring. In high contrast ratio scenes he's OK, but in dark scenes it looks like the deeper optics are still dirty.

He could live with it, looks fantastic, but will not tolerate that level of shoddiness in the workmanship of a worker. He's on an ESP with CC and can have it done over, and will be doing so, even tho it's going to cost him a little extra to have me back.

I wouldn't stand for it either.

Mr Bob

Mr Bob

01-13-07, 03:05 PM

I just added some stuff in the post above, if you read it when it first went up, yesterday.

Mr Bob

Phantom Gremlin

01-13-07, 04:58 PM

Noting that AVS Forum is primarily a user-to-user help forum (as opposed to being primarily an advertising venue for people who make a living as calibrators), I ask for instruction in this endeavor.
Mr Bob has already defended himself against this IMO "snide" remark. But I'll chime in with my two cents as well.

Mr Bob has had the patience of a saint in this thread. He's always answering questions that have been asked over and over by people who are far too lazy to read the thread or search.

As Mr Bob sometimes points out, he does need to eat, so I don't begrude him the occasional promotion of his services.

Contrast Mr Bob's behavior here to that of another "calibrator", beloved by many at AVS Forum. This other guy found a simple menu fix for an SXRD problem where the bandwidth was being incorrectly limited by a bad setting at the factory. This other guy posted that he had found the solution but wasn't about to tell anyone about it. Nyah, nyah, nyah. Then the other calibrator got miffed and left the SXRD thread altogether, only to return a few weeks later to contribute nothing useful and to simply advertise his services. Now that was what people call chutzpah!

Thank you Mr Bob for all your contributions here.

bweissman

01-13-07, 05:39 PM

Mr Bob has already defended himself against this IMO "snide" remark. But I'll chime in with my two cents as well.
My remark wasn't snide. It was rather polite, actually.

I have no problem with Mr. Bob drumming up business. What I have a problem with is
the sheer volume of self-promotion I encounter on some threads - yes, we get it that you're available to be paid for your work.
the chilling effect of for-profit tweakers to stifle information sharing - if people become reluctant to share for fear of taking food off somebody's table, information flow will trickle off.
I wasn't asking Mr. Bob to give me anything for free. Surely someone else on this list must have, and be willing to share, knowledge of disassembly and reassembly of the lenses in these Pioneer CRT RPTVs.

Trigger445

01-15-07, 03:26 AM

I wasn't asking Mr. Bob to give me anything for free. Surely someone else on this list must have, and be willing to share, knowledge of disassembly and reassembly of the lenses in these Pioneer CRT RPTVs.

bweissman, PamW linked you to the instructions back on post 834. She linked you to post 648, posted, for free I will add, by Mr Bob. His explanation in post 648 is the answer you are looking for--that is how to do the basic and the deep optics cleaning. You aren't disassembling the lenses, but simply removing them to get to deeper optics, just as he says in that post.

bweissman

01-15-07, 05:13 AM

You aren't disassembling the lenses, but simply removing them to get to deeper optics, just as he says in that post.Thank you. For some reason I had it in my head that the lens stacks needed to be separated and the inner surfaces cleaned.

Mr Bob

01-15-07, 02:41 PM

Thank you. For some reason I had it in my head that the lens stacks needed to be separated and the inner surfaces cleaned.

The only person I have ever heard of doing this is SonyCrusader, who is the guru of Sony HDreadys. He takes the lens packs apart and cleans every lens in there.

It's a lot of work, and having been in there myself, I have never found a need for that, unless your liquid cleaning agent has seeped in at the edges and fogged up the internal lenses.

On one other occasion I had to go in on an old Advent pj, where water damage from a fire had half-filled the angled lenses with water, requiring that the huge lens tubes be taken apart for cleaning.

No, leave the lens packs intact and just do the front and rear of each one.

Mr Bob

ctvince

01-15-07, 02:43 PM

Mr Bob

01-15-07, 02:52 PM

Well, I worked on the set Friday evening and Saturday morning. I ran into some issues that I’m afraid are going to come back and haunt me. Some that I could have foreseen and some I could not. The first was I have never soldered copper to stainless before. The clip was stainless and had crimped the wire. I couldn’t undue the crimping and get the wire out so I had to solder to the wire and float the solder around the end of the clip. I’m not sure how long that will hold up. The other issue was once I assembled the clip back into the CRT, I noticed there was a lot of erosion in the hole as a result of all the arcing that had been going on. The spring clip moves around in there a little too freely. After the assembly of the clip with the RTV silicone and waiting 24 hours, I went to turn on the set and the horizontal lines were back in my image, but only worse than before. The blue glow however, had disappeared. The end result was that I had to wiggle the clip and try and rotate it as far as I could (since it was siliconed in it wouldn’t rotate too much) to get a clear image. I’m not very hopeful that this will last very long seeing as the amount of juice that runs through this connection. I don’t plan on spending any more time on this set as a result. When it goes again, it will probably go down into my basement for a future “project to do” and I’ll buy a new set. I’m just hoping it at least lasts long enough to pay off the Christmas bills!

Thanks again Mr. Bob for the good help. I have to admit this has been an up and down emotional thing for me.

You could have wound a spring steel wire around the existing clip, with maybe 10 windings, that would also have a springy maze of wiring that would take up the space inside the hole. They still do this type of connection with wire onto posts sticking up from ECBs. Using copper and solder was not absolutely necessary.

Lots of surface area connection is the key. One reason a hole was bored into your existing clip from arcing was that not nearly enough surface contact was going on in there, and I am not talking about the outer surface of the CRT body itself. I am also talking about the surface area of the inner part of the hole.

And yes there's a huge amount of juice needing to be conveyed, at all times the unit is on. Get enough surface area contact going on in there and you'll be home free.

Mr Bob

ctvince

01-15-07, 05:53 PM

Mr Bob

01-15-07, 09:00 PM

Thanks Mr. Bob, When the unit fails again I'll try that out even though that sounds like it would definitely require me to remove the CRT from the set to get that in and not disturb the silicone goop. At least I have some hope for the future.

You could probably stuff the inside of that hole with the kind of tightly curled metal washing pad stuff I see in plasma balls, which also operate on HV. It would wind up surrounding the clip that's presently there, plus fill out the hole with itself, assuring dozens if not hundreds of different points of contact.

Mr Bob

rsg_1

01-15-07, 11:30 PM

Great thread Mr. Bob! I've been away for a while now from this forum. Its great to see some original oldies like yourself still here.

Unfortunately, I've sold my PRO-610 to a friend and watching another PRO-610 has made me realize the film experience I'm missing with DLP.

Sure DLP is getting better every year, not because of 1080p, but the ability to reproduce a better NTSC color gamut. Its not there yet, and at this time in my life, I don't have the time to dedicate to CRT based devices, so I've settled for 2nd, 3rd or 4th best. In late 2009 I'll update my DLP and hopefully they'll be much better.

Right now, I need a 2nd set in the bedroom and I'm thinking of one of the newer 40" Sammy or Sony 1080p LCD sets. Reading the LCD and Plasma forums you get a real high chaff to wheat ratio. Some of those folks there, well meaning and all, don't know what the hell they're talking about. Its pretty hard.

I know this is kinda off-topic, but what would you recommend for a 40" set that will be used primarily for movie watching and HD broadcasts. And no, I don't care about hooking up a PS3 or XBOX 360. :)

pmeyer

01-16-07, 11:30 AM

Last month I noticed this thread on the blue flash. A week ago I mentioned it to my wife. Response: "I think I've seen that..." (I haven't watched that set in a month). I confirmed it last night.

So, it appears my 6.5 year old 510 has developed the classic rising brightness followed by blue flash back to black. I've got my 63/37 rosin core out and ready to go. As soon as I can get out and get a better soldering station and a magnifying lense, out comes the board. I don't see a point in talking to Pioneer.

While I'm in there, I'll probably do some optics cleaning. I can tell my wife it is all part of the same thing...

The timing is funny. I was getting ready to relegate that set to the family room (my media room is getting turned into a full home theater with a 100" front projector, model tbd).

This thread has been very helpful. Thanks to all and especially Mr. Bob.

Johnla

01-16-07, 01:33 PM

The first was I have never soldered copper to stainless before. The clip was stainless and had crimped the wire. I couldn’t undue the crimping and get the wire out so I had to solder to the wire and float the solder around the end of the clip. I’m not sure how long that will hold up.

Usually normal solder won't even work at all with anything made of stainless steel. And solder that is made for stainless use requires some form of a strong acid flux, and using a acid flux will kill any wires soldered with it over time. So you may want to redo that in some other way, because you may not have as much contact with the wire and the stainless as you think by just floating solder around it. Although as a last resort kind of thing, you might try removing the solder you used and try using a high content silver bearing solder instead. Because depending upon the stainless used, it may just adhere to it where normal solder won't.

Mr Bob

01-16-07, 02:24 PM

I know this is kinda off-topic, but what would you recommend for a 40" set that will be used primarily for movie watching and HD broadcasts. And no, I don't care about hooking up a PS3 or XBOX 360. :)

I am a dyed in the wool CRT man, have just bought and set up a brand new 73" triple-gun Mit, and to tell you the truth, I really don't know how to answer your question.

If I were you, I would find another CRT set and have it cleaned and calibrated. They are being sold off left and right in favor of the new, fancy fixed pixel stuff. You know what it is capable of. You only need to do what it needs every now and then, if cleaned and calibrated correctly.

I just heard of someone buying a several year old 57" Tosh HDready in excellent condition for $500. I am sure there are steals like this all over the place right now.

Other than that, you're probably up on the finer points of the new technologies more than I am. I have my hands full with my repair business and calibrations.

I NEVER get enough time to watch all the HD I would like to! Much less explore the finer points of fixed pixel technology, as you are already immersed in.

Mr Bob

Trigger445

01-16-07, 10:50 PM

Last month I noticed this thread on the blue flash...While I'm in there, I'll probably do some optics cleaning. I can tell my wife it is all part of the same thing....

pmeyer,
Just to make sure you understand, you get to the power supply by going in the panel on the BACK of the tv, and you get to the optics cleaning by removing the FRONT screen and going in from the front--do not try to remove the mirror and get to the optics from the back (there are some specialty screws in there to protect you from yourself, but with enough determination they could probably be defeated), or you will have a 500 pound paper weight for an old-tv, and your solder-job on the PS board will be for not.

Joeyz

01-17-07, 07:07 AM

Mr Bob

01-17-07, 11:27 AM

Well...here I am again. Since my 510 was repaired, I've been noticing a green tint background that used to be black. I never saw it before in the 6+ years I've owned this set. I'm sure I need it calibrated as its never been done, but I just don't trust anyone from this area. Anyone have any ideas about this green tint?

I have seen this a lot on the Pios I have calibrated. It's because the grayscale drifts over time, and needs to be recentered on its industry standard of D6500K. Different colors have to be driven slightly harder than others to achieve D6500K, and after a few years it all has to be rebalanced again. This has to happen every few years on many units, to keep the green out of the blacks. Or red, or blue.

Any ISFer can get that done. If you fly me in to wherever you are, we would just start there, and do a complete stem to stern, if you wish.

Your set would be completely restored and ready for its next 5 years of videophlie viewing, at better than new quality at all times.

To get someone really qualified in all aspects of CRT RPTV restoration - both the image structure and the colorations aspects - you'll most likely be needing to fly somone in anyway, because there are only a handful of calibrators on the continent who know what needs to be known for doing both sides of that equation. Don't even think of using the ISF website for stem to stern CRT based cals, because they don't teach the image sturcture aspects. Maybe 5% of those listed know all that needs to be known, when it comes to CRT.

But if all you want is the green in the background to go back to being black, you'll find resources in how to do that here and on other boards.

Or sign up for a phone consultation with me and I'll guide you thru it.

Mr Bob

Mr Bob

01-17-07, 11:33 AM

GA17ND10

01-17-07, 12:15 PM

Just a reminder post that I'm in the Atlanta area and would like to go in with a couple of other Pio X10 owners to get a service call from Bob.

pmeyer

01-18-07, 12:15 AM

pmeyer,
Just to make sure you understand, you get to the power supply by going in the panel on the BACK of the tv, and you get to the optics cleaning by removing the FRONT screen and going in from the front--do not try to remove the mirror and get to the optics from the back

Now he tells me! :rolleyes:

Just kidding. I carefully read the whole thread (including the anecdotes of folks removing the top back). My power board is now fixed.

I picked up a $60 digital temp reading soldering station (easy to justify to the wife with the money I'm saving on the TV). Also a $12 magnifying thingy on a stand with alligator clips to hold small work. Both from radio shack.

Pulled the bottom back off, marked all the connectors with unique sharpie marks so I could pair them up again. Popped off all the connectors. Bent the inductor/RF loop thing in the upper left that a previous post specifically mentioned to avoid. (no harm done, just bent it back).

Lots of unscrewing (but much easier than I had expected based on the comments earlier in the thread). I unscrewed the board from the frame and pulled only the board out. That seemed easier than taking the frame out.

Turned the board over on the kitchen table. Reflowed/added solder as needed to all the white connector backs (E2,E3, etc. including the ones at the bottom). Got the ic202 and ic204.

Then I went around looking for anything suspicious using the magnifying glass. Reflowed randomly on anything that didn't look shiny. I saw no obviously bad solder joints. No halos, no wiggling. Went back looking for shorted pins, but I had done a clean job, no issues.

One thing I can contribute to future attempters: One one of the connectors at the top, there are pins that are connected together by solder (not directly, but off to the side of the main row of pins). If I remember correctly, it's two pairs on the same connector. If I hadn't noticed this before I resoldered, I would have been nervous that I had shorted them. I happened to notice them, and I could see by the board trace that they appeared to be connected on purpose.

After inspection, I popped the board back in, connected it back up, and turned on the power.

Red power light comes on. TV appears to turn on (INPUT 3, natural wide, etc.). But NO picture! :( Try the DVD player. Try the cable box. Nothing. Think about it for a minute... Brainstorm: try actually reconnecting the TV to the other components!!!

After that, it worked beautifully. I watched the same (dark) battlestar galactica eposide that I saw the flashes on last week. Then the black level was constantly bouncing around, with blue flashes every minute or so. Now: no blue flash the whole hour.

I did see a short of a quick reddish screen flash twice in the first 5 minutes (coming on s-video from the cable dvr). Couldn't reproduce it on a component input, and didn't see it again for the rest of the hour on the s-vid input. I'm categorizing that as a warm-up problem or a DVR issue.

I'm good to go. I could see the CRT's (or lenses or whatever) through the slot in the back. Covered with dust. They are getting cleaned this saturday. Through the FRONT...

Any pointers to any good calibrators in the Austin area? I wouldn't mind paying a few hundred to get it tuned up (although flying you in would be a bit tough to justify, Mr. Bob, as this set is about to be relegated to the family room and a new projector is going to move into the HT).

Thanks for the help, this thread saved my TV!

Paul

bradesp

01-20-07, 11:06 AM

Mr Bob

01-20-07, 11:57 AM

Mr. Bob, do you or anyone on this thread know of anyone on the east coast, preferably south east (i'm in north carolina) that might be able to tackle the calibration issues you've so expertely outlined on this thread?

an alternative would be in there are others in the Raleigh NC area that want to go in with me to have your tv calibrated.

I'm the owner of a 710HD set and i've just hooked up my new HTPC to the VGA input and I'm struggling to work around the obvious overscan problem. I can't seem to find any custom resolution or timing using the nvidia purevideo drivers that will give me a full desktop (at any resolution). I end up with 4-6 percrent bleeding off the screen... Additionally my screen is offcenter as well.

bradesp

Sorry, don't know anybody who can do it with the 710's - and all Pioneer HDreadys - like I can. Fly me in, I'll do everyone's on the same trip, as long as the trip is not longer than a week. If not all the sets get done in a week, I'd be open to coming back again for the rest.

BTW, you should use a regular STB to set up your calibration as far as picture shaping and placement goes, then tune your HTPC to that result.

HTPCs have way too much variability to use as setup devices on HDreadys.

Mr Bob

Joeyz

01-20-07, 10:20 PM

I have seen this a lot on the Pios I have calibrated. It's because the grayscale drifts over time, and needs to be recentered on its industry standard of D6500K. Different colors have to be driven slightly harder than others to achieve D6500K, and after a few years it all has to be rebalanced again. This has to happen every few years on many units, to keep the green out of the blacks. Or red, or blue.

Any ISFer can get that done. If you fly me in to wherever you are, we would just start there, and do a complete stem to stern, if you wish.

Your set would be completely restored and ready for its next 5 years of videophlie viewing, at better than new quality at all times.

To get someone really qualified in all aspects of CRT RPTV restoration - both the image structure and the colorations aspects - you'll most likely be needing to fly somone in anyway, because there are only a handful of calibrators on the continent who know what needs to be known for doing both sides of that equation. Don't even think of using the ISF website for stem to stern CRT based cals, because they don't teach the image sturcture aspects. Maybe 5% of those listed know all that needs to be known, when it comes to CRT.

But if all you want is the green in the background to go back to being black, you'll find resources in how to do that here and on other boards.

Or sign up for a phone consultation with me and I'll guide you thru it.

Mr Bob
I'm seriously thinking of having you come out. I had hoped to find at least 2 more people in the Chicago area to split the airfare, but no luck so far. What would it cost me if you only came to my house? By the way, my converge is still moving. It was still after the resolder for about 3 days, but I'm having to adjust the red daily. Its really starting to agrivate me: 1. The green tint. 2. Adjusting the converge daily. 3. Needing a calibration. I wonder if there's some bad solder joints on the converge board.

Mr Bob

01-21-07, 12:34 PM

I'm seriously thinking of having you come out. I had hoped to find at least 2 more people in the Chicago area to split the airfare, but no luck so far. What would it cost me if you only came to my house? By the way, my converge is still moving. It was still after the resolder for about 3 days, but I'm having to adjust the red daily. Its really starting to agrivate me: 1. The green tint. 2. Adjusting the converge daily. 3. Needing a calibration. I wonder if there's some bad solder joints on the converge board.

I have not seen cold solder joints on the conv bds so far, but anything is possible. There's a regulator on the PS board specifically for the power being sent to the conv bd, so if that regulator has not been resoldered yet, it could be causing this.

The conv ICs could be going out as well, slowly degrading in there, causing this drift. They usually just go out, but again, anything is possible.

I charge the normal cal rates plus travel costs of getting here - OAK - to there and back, including shuttles on both flights on my end - $25 each - and don't charge for my time in the air, even tho it is lost production time. There might be travel charges on your end, but if you do all the driving and the airport is not all that far away from you and somehow a nice meal gets thrown in along the way, somehow the ground travel charges seem to magically disappear...

C'mon, guys, climb on board and help Joey out. I only charge $150 plus participation in the travel expenses for regular optics cleaning, and all you owners of any of the x10 series need optics cleaning badly by now. The deeper optics cleaning runs an extra $150 if needed/desired - and it usually is - resulting in a brand new looking big screen for a max of $300 for the work itself - possibly only $150 for the work itself - with your set then looking every bit as crystal clear as the day you bought it. Your set would be restored to crystal clarity, an amazing difference from the bleariness you are now watching it with.

Half a dozen fellow participants on this trip will cut the travel costs for each one of you to no more than it would cost you to have me come over to your place in my car if you lived locally here, where I do. It would be as if you had me come over one day, from across town, to do your cal or optics cleaning for you. A pittance.

And of course if anybody then wanted the full meal deal, I would be around for that as well. The regular optics cleaning costs would be contributed towards, and become part of, the final calibration costs.

Everybody makes out like crazy on a calibration tour, when at least 5 guys are taking part.

Mr Bob

WERA689

01-21-07, 05:21 PM

Mr Bob

01-22-07, 01:51 AM

Mr. Bob
I'd be interested in talking to you should you find yourself coming to Atlanta, GA anytime soon. Meanwhile, I'd like to take a shot a cursory lens and mirror cleaning--as sort of a "boost" until you get out here. Problem is, I'm just not sure how to get to the front of the lenses and mirror. I'm sure the screen has to come off, but I'm not confident that I see how to remove it properly. Can you provide a quick "walk thru" for screen removal?
Assuming we can get something going in Atlanta, could you PM me with an estimate for the "full monty" on my PRO 510? Grayscale, optic cleaning, deep optic cleaning, mechanical and electrical focus, geometry (overscan reduction in particular) and convergence.......what did I miss to make my set new as day 1 again?
Thanks,
Neil Weiss

Anyone who wants this kind of info should email me at my regular email address, given below. My quota in my pm's is rapidly approaching the maximum allowed. Do this and I will send back my ready to go emailout on the costs of, and services provided in, an Image Perfection calibration.

To get in, screws are the secret, after you have pried the bottom speaker grill cloth section loose, as it is on there pretty tight. The frame is on there pretty tight as well.

If you can figure it out from that, you'll be OK for getting in. If not, you probably shouldn't try the optics cleaning on your own, without supervision. Those lens tops are plastic and extremely scratchable - which is permanent - and the mirror is a first surface type, where you gotta use the right materials. The mirror surface is NOT glass.

I am available for phone consultation if you want to get expert guidance and not take any chances with possibly irreplaceable parts.

In another thread, a Hitachi thread, Mikeinvegas tells what we found when his 3 guns were replaced recently - they were all scratched, badly and permanently, by the installing technician, and are currently on order to be replaced. See post 1597:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=338096&page=54&pp=30&highlight=hitachi+500700

DIYing is a respected art form in this community, but learning by experience can be one of the most expensive teachers of all, when all does not go well, esp. unexpectedly. I recommend you suspend DIYing when it comes to optics cleaning, and seek the proper guidance.

Mr Bob

WERA689

01-22-07, 02:21 AM

Anyone who wants this kind of info should email me at my regular email address, given below. My quota in my pm's is rapidly approaching the maximum allowed. Do this and I will send back my ready to go emailout on the costs of, and services provided in, an Image Perfection calibration.

Thanks, Bob, will do.

bjarrett

01-24-07, 02:18 PM

Add me to the list of the Blue Flash problem.

tonyr669

01-25-07, 01:37 PM

Mr Bob

01-26-07, 09:41 AM

I used to get a line that split across the screen, this eventually led to my TV turning itself off, and I too had to pull the plug or hit the off switch in the hidden panel. It became so frequent I had to send it out for repair. Paid the TV Repair guy $627, he had it for 2 weeks, brought it back to my house where it promptly did exactly the same thing he said he fixed. I have since replaced it with a plasma 50 inch, and am looking to get rid of this TV.

I am sorry to hear that. Every Pioneer HDready I have first repaired - successfully every time, I might add, have not had to kiss one off yet - and then calibrated, has absolutely wowed its owner with the final result.

I just finished redoing a 4 year old Mit originally done by the famous Craig Miller, finding absolutely NO need for changing anything with his grayscale or color decoding after all this time. The optics were absolutely filthy by now, which is only to be expected, and I did redo his contrast and brightness paradigm to deliver a much more punchy picture than its owners had ever seen before.

But its picture is now absolutely dazzling. We just watched Gray's Anatomy on it tonight, and several times during the event it's owner just had to comment again on how incredible the picture now looked.

He had been comparing it to the new Panny DLP he has in his front room and had found his Mit set in the condition it had gone to after 4 years, to be really wanting, in comparison.

He no longer feels that way. His 65" WS 65909 up in the dedicated viewing room upstairs, totally tricked out with M&K digital surround audio, is now his primary home cinema viewing piece again, and he acknowledges now that his smaller DLP set downstairs in the room off the kitchen, is no longer the better set.

I highly recommend you get your money back - or most of it anyway - and having me fix it instead, even if that entails flying me in to do so.

Then keeping your set, and having me trick it out. I assure you it will keep up with your new plasma, if you do so, and will deliver even better blacks than any current day plasma can.

Mr Bob

Hondaph00l

01-27-07, 10:41 AM

Hmmm, well Im also joining the mass of 510 owners with auto shutoff problems. Ive been reading here and there through the thread and today, since class was cancelled I will be reading it front to back. I was reading earlier in the thread about other pioneer products breaking at the same time and their tv's and coulndt help but laugh. About a month ago my 300disc Elite DVD player gave up the ghost and now my TV wooopeeee.

Alex

Bruce N

01-29-07, 06:32 PM

I'm bringing Mr Bob to Northern Va. (Leesburg, to be exact) the week of February 5th. If anyone in this area is interested in his services please let him or me know. He'll be here Monday evening and busy with a couple Pioneer sets in this area for a couple days.

I know he doesn't get to this area very often so folks around here may want to take advantage of this if they can!

All the best!
Bruce

Trigger445

01-29-07, 11:34 PM

Mr Bob

01-30-07, 12:08 PM

Mr Bob,
I think you told me when you were here calibrating my TV, but I forgot. Do you ever clean the "screen sandwich" on both sides (inside and outside) or is that dangerous territory? If so, any techniques? Does the screen get dirty like the lenses (obviously it can with fingerprints on the outside, but does it attract dust)? Thanks

PS, the calibration is great. Love the TV.
Trigger

You don't EVER want to touch the plastic lenses that form the viewscreen unless you absolutely have to. They don't normally attract dust like the lenses and mirror do. Sometimes when I take the frame off, the rear of the screen sandwich has dust on it, and I use a CLEAN, dry terrycloth towel on it, very lightly, so as not to scratch anything.

On the front, where the vertical ridges of the lenticular are exposed, just know that those ridges will keep residue inside them. So any cleaning has to be followed with clear, clean water and buffed dry with a terrycloth towel. Possibly alcohol will work even better, but I have never been adventurous enough to try that yet. You DEFINITELY don't want to use alcohol on lenticulars with darkened tops of those ridges, like I have seen on Sonys, because that darkening will be obliterated in that area. You won't see it in your images, but when the TV is shut off, it will leap out at you.

I do know that on my 65" Panny an oil mark got on it up in the right corner, maybe from a masseuse letting her finger touch it, I never found out how. But trying to get rid of that mark was not very successful. It's still there - not as bad, but much bigger than the original mark, with my trying to feather the damage out. Nobody sees it but me, but I do see it! There's another clean water mark still in the middle from something I tried to remove there. Innocuous, but you're just like me - you'll see it!

Yeah, you coined it right - those plastic sheets are dangerous territory! NEVER touch them until or unless you have to.

Mr Bob

zzedd

02-01-07, 05:59 PM

I apologize if this is somewhere else in this thread...but its pretty big, and on a first scan I couldn't find anything related. My 510HD has an inward curve to the left side of the screen when I switch my HD receiver (time warner cable) to 1080i resolution. I've done all the convergence setting I can do with the remote, but still have the curve on the left side. The right side of the screen is fine. This problem doesn't occur when I change the output to 480p.

As an aside, and big thanks, I followed the directions/suggestions by Bob to fix the blue flash and auto-turn off to great success, no flashes or shut-offs since I resoldered several of the joints on the power supply board...THANKS!

bweissman

02-01-07, 06:30 PM

My 510HD has an inward curve to the left side of the screen when I switch my HD receiver (time warner cable) to 1080i resolution. I've done all the convergence setting I can do with the remote, but still have the curve on the left side.Your geometry problem can be fixed in service mode. If you've never entered service mode, there are probably other needed adjustments an experienced tweaker could perform for you in addition to correcting the geometry.

Mr Bob

02-01-07, 06:47 PM

IMy 510HD has an inward curve to the left side of the screen when I switch my HD receiver (time warner cable) to 1080i resolution. I've done all the convergence setting I can do with the remote, but still have the curve on the left side. The right side of the screen is fine. This problem doesn't occur when I change the output to 480p.

The memories for the 2 scanrates are completely independent of each other. And in user you can't do the green, like you can in the sm. You can only do red and blue.

You'll have to go into the sm with the set on the 1080i input and 1080i up on the screen, to do any 1080i geometry work. And your 1080i test pattern/video material has to be coming in via component, NOT RGB.

Mr Bob

edotte

02-02-07, 01:27 PM

keithaxis

02-02-07, 03:02 PM

Mr Bob

02-02-07, 05:29 PM

Does anyone know of someone in NYC who can repair the Blue Flash on a PRO-610HD? I called pioneer and was initially pleasantly surprised that they acknowledged the problem and gave me a case number. The response I got after that came from one of their authorized service companies. They had received notification from Pioneer that I had the problem and that Pioneer would cover the cost of a new power supply and were calling to schedule an appointment. However, pioneer would not cover labor. Initially, that seemed reasonable, but their rates were not. They wanted me to first pay $225 for them to come out and diagnose the problem, and only then would they tell me how much additional labor to fix it would cost. (Even though I, Pioneer, and the service co already know exactly what the problem is.) They also would not do the repair in one appointment. After pressing them, I got them to tell me they would charge an additional $550 just to install the new board! I again contacted Pioneer to see if they can do better, and am awaiting a response, but I am not very hopeful. So, anyone else had any luck in NYC?

That's outrageous for simply changing out a board.

Contact someone else who will do the job. If you can get Pioneer to send you the board, you can hire anyone you want.

If it has to be installed by an authorized warranty station, look around. You're not in Podunk Iowa, where population is 553 and there are no HD sets around.

$775 to change out a board that has all plug-ins, each of which are of diffrerent sizes and as such cannot be mixed up!

:p

Mr Bob

Mr Bob

02-02-07, 05:33 PM

I am finally going to fix my screen flash this weekend, after removing the back panel a few weeks back and seeign what I was getting into..

My question not related to the flash and only in this thread do to my tv being the 710. I bought a DLP 50" for upstairs with the Elite 710 downstairs. I was shocked and awed at how crystal clear and in focus that the DLP was and how it made my 710 almost look stand def or much much much softer. Coloring on both is comparable, 710 probably better there, but wow, is it a CRT issue becuase the DLP is truly digital or can my 710 look close to a DLP as far as focus/clearness. The text when in HD such as ESPN HD is night and day clearer on the DLP...just curious if that is a difference in a 7 year old CRT tv compared to a few month old DLP?

sorry for any interruption from the normal thread...but darn, I wish my $6000 710 looked close to my $1200 DLP...Never been calibrated but it always looked great until I bought that DLP and saw the difference...

Keith, close to Seattle Wa...

I just had exactly that experience with Trigger445, whose review of my work is back a few pages on this thread. He also bought a DLP for his front room, with his Pioneer upstairs, and comparing the 2, found that he definitely needed to do something.

He had me do the work while I was in Vegas for CES, and when I was thru with his unit, had definitely found that the DLP was NOT the better picture anymore. And his was 7 years old as well. His Pioneer had been completely restored to its former glory and then some, by me, and he kept things where they were: his DLP downstairs without any sound system in the front room, and his Pioneer x10 series set - same as yours - upstairs with all that delicious M&K audio, as his primary movie viewing venue.

Check it out.

Mr Bob

Mr Bob

02-02-07, 05:43 PM

Thanks, Bob, will do.

Just changed this when I realized that your handle does not properly ID you, Neill.

See ya probably Thursday or Friday in Atlanta.

Mr Bob

Joeyz

02-02-07, 11:59 PM

Does anyone know of someone in NYC who can repair the Blue Flash on a PRO-610HD? I called pioneer and was initially pleasantly surprised that they acknowledged the problem and gave me a case number. The response I got after that came from one of their authorized service companies. They had received notification from Pioneer that I had the problem and that Pioneer would cover the cost of a new power supply and were calling to schedule an appointment. However, pioneer would not cover labor. Initially, that seemed reasonable, but their rates were not. They wanted me to first pay $225 for them to come out and diagnose the problem, and only then would they tell me how much additional labor to fix it would cost. (Even though I, Pioneer, and the service co already know exactly what the problem is.) They also would not do the repair in one appointment. After pressing them, I got them to tell me they would charge an additional $550 just to install the new board! I again contacted Pioneer to see if they can do better, and am awaiting a response, but I am not very hopeful. So, anyone else had any luck in NYC?
Man.....You are GETTING HOSED!! I had my Pro-510HD (same as yours only smaller screen) repaired last month. The total cost was $145. I got a case # as well, but called a local Pioneer repair guy(listed on Pioneers web site). He then contacted Pioneer, they offered to pay for the board and I pay labor, or if no parts were needed, they would pay half the labor. The new board the service brought out was D.O.A. So he just resoldered mine. Not a flicker since. The tech was here less than an hour. Don't waste time. CALL another tech and report the guy that came to your house to Pioneer. Keep us posted.....

b17drvr

02-04-07, 11:22 AM

I was quoted 650 for labor from a pioneer service center to replace the board. I called another service center and they were 375. I got the board and replaced it myself.

Tim

Larry Hutchinson

02-04-07, 12:07 PM

$650 to fix, eh?

I just tried to sell my 610 on craig's list for $700 and failed.

So i just gave it away to a relative.

Mr Bob

02-04-07, 07:13 PM

$650 to fix, eh?

I just tried to sell my 610 on craig's list for $700 and failed.

So i just gave it away to a relative.

Sorry to hear that, Larry. I coulda restored it to its former glory.

Mr Bob

edotte

02-05-07, 03:03 PM

Update: I tried to get Pioneer to just directly send me the board for free, but they'd only cover the parts cost if I went through an authorized repair center. I decided I was better off ordering the board and replacing it myself, and eventually talked to a guy and got him to give me discount on the board, since they otherwise would be sending it free. At first he gave me the dealer price of $200 instead of $300, and then after putting me on hold and checking something, came back and gave me the employee discount price of around $127. I'm happy with this solution, better for me, better for Pioneer, because they presumably at least break even instead of sending it free, only worse for the repair center who was too greedy. Had they quoted me anywhere close to a reasonable price, I probably would have overpaid a little to avoid the hassle. So the boards's on the way and hopefully it will be a working one.

jsmall1

02-06-07, 05:48 AM

HELP with PRO-610HD.
I just purchased a Toshiba HD-A1 HD DVD player to use with my Pro 610 HD. When I play an HD DVD the image is near the top of the screen. In other words the top black bar is 2" and the lower black bar is 4". Does anyone know I can reposition the image on the screen in Full Mode. Since the image is in 1080i the screen locks in Full Mode.
Thanks.

Rino van Dam

02-06-07, 07:29 AM

Baltobob

02-07-07, 02:31 PM

zzedd

02-07-07, 03:10 PM

You'll have to go into the sm with the set on the 1080i input and 1080i up on the screen, to do any 1080i geometry work. And your 1080i test pattern/video material has to be coming in via component, NOT RGB.

Mr Bob

Just got the service manual via ShareFx website, for those wanting a copy, they charge $15 for a one month unlimited membership, you have access to thousands of manuals in PDF format that you can download. A LOT cheaper than you can get it from Pioneer, and you can get both the ARP 3051, as well as the huge schematic manuals. I've recently got the blue flash back, so I must've missed a joint or two on the PS... so this weekend I'll be cracking it open and checking it out again, as well as trying to get rid of the pincusion effect on 1080i.

Thanks again Mr. Bob!

Mr Bob

02-07-07, 07:40 PM

I have a Pioneer Elite Pro 510HD. It has worked fine since I bought it in 2001. Today it started showing double images at the bottom. For instance, the ESPN "Crawl" that goes across the bottom of the screen is doubled, one image being about 6 inches above the other. Anyone out there know about this..thank you

If this double-imaging is in different colors, you have convergence problems, which are eminently remedyable on these sets. On all CRT RPTVs, really.

Mr Bob

jsmall1

02-08-07, 05:49 AM

Just got the service manual via ShareFx website, for those wanting a copy, they charge $15 for a one month unlimited membership, you have access to thousands of manuals in PDF format that you can download. A LOT cheaper than you can get it from Pioneer, and you can get both the ARP 3051, as well as the huge schematic manuals. I've recently got the blue flash back, so I must've missed a joint or two on the PS... so this weekend I'll be cracking it open and checking it out again, as well as trying to get rid of the pincusion effect on 1080i.

Thanks again Mr. Bob!

I hope this is a reply to my question concerning a Toshiba HD-A1 and Pioneer Elite Pro 610HD. I have access to a 610hd service manual. Do I need to do this for 480P, which is also locked in Full Mode?

Thanks

TrashFaceJoe

02-10-07, 08:38 PM

Mr Bob

02-11-07, 03:26 AM

Hey guys,

I'm new here. But anyways here is my story. I aquired a broken pioneer elite pro 510. At first when the main button was pushed nothing would happen. No main power light or anything. I tried the resolding the cold solder joints on the power board. I reinstalled it and now when i push the main power button i hear a high pitch beep beep beep beep then the red power down led lights up on the power board. The led on the convergence board DOES NOT light up. just the one on the power board. Anywho, i was wondering should i just take the PC board back out try again or if there is something i over looked. I've read most of the thread but 30 pages is alot to read through.

I think I'm heading in the right direction. Any information is helpful. All the repair men in San luis obispo want $75 just too look at it and i know all they are going to do is replace the board.

Thanks ahead of time.

You actually made progress the first time, as your set was totally nonresponsive, and now it is.

Chances are you have a solder bridge in there. They are real easy to do. Get a very strong flashlight and reading glasses and go in and see if you can find one.

If so, undo it. And if you did one, you might just as well have done 2 and not known that either. In which case you need to go over the whole board, everywhere you soldered something, looking for bridges.

I have had to do just that, on these boards.

Luckily enough, Pio designed these very well, to stay away from domino-effecting - and thus croaking - in response to this type of event. Their protection circuits are very, very good.

Mr Bob

TrashFaceJoe

02-12-07, 11:52 PM

Mr Bob

02-13-07, 11:34 AM

Add me to the list of people who resurrected their broken pio. It turns out that there were cold solder joints under the glue that holds down the two grey jumper wires, sneeky sneeky pioneer. Now she's running perfect. Hooray for my $100, 510 HD pro elite. And thanks alot Mr. Bob.

Just goes to show you how you can't always trust just a few connections on these jobs, and even if you can now, how long with others last, that haven't given way yet?

Good job. Another $5000 RPTV saved!

Mr Bob

GA17ND10

02-13-07, 02:34 PM

rgonyer

02-13-07, 04:51 PM

rgonyer

02-13-07, 05:17 PM

That's outrageous for simply changing out a board.

Contact someone else who will do the job. If you can get Pioneer to send you the board, you can hire anyone you want.

If it has to be installed by an authorized warranty station, look around. You're not in Podunk Iowa, where population is 553 and there are no HD sets around.

$775 to change out a board that has all plug-ins, each of which are of diffrerent sizes and as such cannot be mixed up!

:p

Mr Bob

Ouch man, I *AM* in Podunk, Iowa! (Okay, near Davenport) ;-)

Mr Bob

02-14-07, 12:37 PM

Just a note to you guys thinking of getting your RPTV's calibrated, etc by Mr. Bob. He just did mine during his trip to Atlanta and we are extremely pleased with the results - the set has a really stunning picture and it's almost 7 years old. If you need any details, feel free to contact me.

Roger

Roger -

You might want to chime in on the thread Rino started, "Mr. Bob does Atlanta":

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=805133&highlight=mr+bob+does+atlanta

Mr Bob

PRO710HD

02-15-07, 11:23 AM

Hey Mr. Bob. I had resoldered the PS board on my PRO710 and everything has beend good for awhile now but I recently noticed that my screen has been getting darker. I haven't changed the settings at all and when I bump the contrast up I really don't see a major difference in the picture getting brighter until it's almost all the way up (to the right about +30 contrast I think).

Do you know what the problem might be?

Mr Bob

02-16-07, 02:12 PM

PRO710HD

02-18-07, 11:20 AM

Mr Bob

02-19-07, 12:31 PM

Seems darker in the darks. My TV has settings for Contrast and BLACK LEVEL so I'm assuming BLACK LEVEL equates to "BRIGHTNESS" right? I bumped up the BLACK LEVE and that did apprear to make the dark areas more visible. I wonder why I notice a sudden change? Maybe because the TV/GUNS are getting older? I hope it's not a sign of one of my solder joints being bad?

Same thing, 2 different names.

Focus block could be shifting internally. All dark levels are first determined by that focus block, and settings on it thereof. It's baseline.

Mr Bob

Ruby

02-27-07, 10:35 AM

This is not really a problem, but...

What is the best way to move a pro-510? I thought it came in two parts but I can't find info on to to disassemble and re-assemble it. Anybody know?

Thanks.

Mr Bob

02-27-07, 01:10 PM

This is not really a problem, but...

What is the best way to move a pro-510? I thought it came in two parts but I can't find info on to to disassemble and re-assemble it. Anybody know?

Thanks.

Most of the smaller sets don't come apart. Don't actually know on the 510, but would suspect that it doesn't.

Mr Bob

keithaxis

02-27-07, 01:14 PM

Mr Bob

02-27-07, 01:21 PM

they have awesome heavy duty wheels on those.>I have the 710 and bought my house in 2002 (2 years after 710)...I will say that it rolls great but to get it in my new house put a nice scratch on the bottom shiny black. It tood 4 grown men to lift that 710 a few inches...I think mitz lets you break the old CRT in half but not the Elite...510 should be much easeir than what I went through with my 710..

Keith

Whenever you go up a ramp that has those knurls in it, like Uhauls do, be sure to lay down a smooth 2' wide piece of board into the ramp on top of the knurls before you ramp it up or down over a threshold. You want to keep it smooth on its journey. And in the truck, pad the floor with lots and lots of cardboard, like with unbuilt Uhaul boxes. They are triple corrugated.

And yes, Pios are strong. I once many years ago was called upon to work on a Pioneer where all 4 wheels had been punched thru the particle board they were secured to, which formed the bottom of the set. Evidently somebody had simply dropped the sucker, and all 4 wheels had punched thru, leaving holes!

Damn thing still worked, and rather well, considering! NONE the worse for wear, at all.

Mr Bob

keithaxis

02-27-07, 01:31 PM

you jogged my memory..it was the uhaul ramp that put the big scratch on my elite...all I know is the 710 is the largest, heaviest thing I had to move ...

Ruby

02-27-07, 05:34 PM

Thanks for the replies. According to the manual I have, the 710 weighs about 360 lbs and the 510, a mere 280 lbs!

cassiusdrow

02-27-07, 08:54 PM

Mr Bob

02-27-07, 09:44 PM

When I moved my Pioneer 630HD, a set of these were used: http://www.forearmforklift.com/home.htm. This enabled two guys to left the set and carry it out of the truck and up my front steps into the house relatively easily. They work well for other types of large furniture, too.

I've seen those before, had completely forgotten about them. I like that idea!
Every Uhaul should carry them.

Mr Bob

PamW

02-27-07, 10:38 PM

When our 710 was installed, it took 4 ex football players with large suction cup grippers attached to the set to get it up our back stairway. They did an outstanding job, but I prayed a lot that day...

Johnla

02-27-07, 10:53 PM

All of the Pioneer 5xx/6xx/7xx series sets are all one piece, none of them split up into two pieces. Not sure about all the other brands of which will or will not do it, but I thought it was only small percentage of few brands like Mitsubishi and maybe Hitachi that had few models of their larger sets that did split up into two pieces.

Mr Bob

02-27-07, 11:17 PM

Ruby

02-28-07, 08:36 AM

Thanks for the link.

RobertZanzerkia

04-06-07, 06:08 PM

transco

04-06-07, 06:42 PM

Hi,
I have this set since 2001. It works great but lately the screen goes blank.
I can hear the sound but no picture. Changing sources Input 1,2,3,4 does not
make and difference so I think it's the TV. If I turn it OFF and then ON again it works for a while (other times it works fine for hours).

Any idea? Is it the power supply? I am not good at soldering so if I know which part to buy I can probably replace it myself.

Robert
Sure sounds familiar. My 610 had the exact same symptoms. In my case it was the power supply board. I touched up all the solder joints (inspection and soldering took about 20 minutes) and it has worked ever since (several months now). If you are capable of pulling and replacing the board, I'd say you'd be better off finding a friend, etc. that can do the soldering for you. The board is expensive and if that's not the problem, that's money wasted.

Ndna Jnz

04-06-07, 06:52 PM

Mr Bob

04-06-07, 06:53 PM

Sure sounds familiar. My 610 had the exact same symptoms. In my case it was the power supply board. I touched up all the solder joints (inspection and soldering took about 20 minutes) and it has worked ever since (several months now). If you are capable of pulling and replacing the board, I'd say you'd be better off finding a friend, etc. that can do the soldering for you. The board is expensive and if that's not the problem, that's money wasted.

Yeah, I have looked at lots of the different boards in there, and the PS board is the only one that suffers from cold solder joints. Other boards may have problems, but cold soldering has not been what they suffer from, in my experience.

Only the PS board.

Mr Bob

Mr Bob

04-06-07, 06:59 PM

Mine is a 2000 model 510HD. I started having problems early last year with a bright white/blue flash occurring sporadically after the tv warmed up. After about 6 months (~Sept '06) I started losing the picture occasionally. I attempted to re-solder the large joints on the power supply board 3 times. The first time seemed to make no difference at all; the tv would still turn the picture off (and power) after about 10-15 minutes. After I tried to re-solder the 2nd time, I had no picture when I turned on the tv at all. So I figured I must have caused a new cold solder joint or bad connection somewhere. I tried re-soldering one more time but no difference. There was no picture to be seen at all. Sound worked ok. I contacted Pioneer and they told me they would cover the cost of the p.s. board, but I would have to pay about 1/2 to an hour of labor. They would have a local authorized repair tech call me. One month goes by, no word. I call Pioneer back and they say "...funny, someone should have called you a month ago". I said "um, duhhhh". Another month goes by, still no word or phone call. I finally got tired of playing the game and waiting. I went to the Pioneer website and ordered a new p.s. board. $300 + a $100 core charge for your old board. 4 days later I swapped in the new p.s. board and all is fine. Now I wish I had not wasted so much time screwing around with it. My tv was "down" for 3.5 months! But I am a happy camper now.
;-)

jeff
-------

This is testament to how NOT necessarily easy this fix is. And that it can be fraught with potential pitfalls, where you end up worse off than when you started.

It takes cool experience and expertise to pull it off without a hitch every time. I'm not saying I have never wound up with a non-working set after a soldering job, but have never been stuck there - was always able to find out why and remedy it, right then and there. I has happened once or twice, and each time it was a solder bridge where I prolly needn't have soldered anyway, but insisted on getting the entire thing soldered, JIC. It was a potential risk I took on for the benny of the customer, and I suffered the pain for it. But it was short-lived, and remedied very quickly.

After which it has never happened again, with the new level of care and deliberation I now put into that soldering job, every time.

It CAN be done, you've just gotta be REALLY careful, have strong and capable lighting and good close-up work glasses on, and keep ALL your attention on the details.

Mr Bob

RobertZanzerkia

04-06-07, 07:32 PM

Ndna Jnz

04-06-07, 08:06 PM

The p/s board is quite large and thus flexible (not good). This is why it is mounted on a metal frame which is then mounted to the wood frame of the tv. In fact, when my new board shipped, it was shipped mounted on a new metal frame. And there are explicit instructions as soon as you open the box, to handle the board by the sides so as not to allow flexing. So I think if you decide to ship it at all, I would ship it on the metal frame, use a way oversized box, and then try to isolate the board between massive amounts of foam. Note: Do NOT use any type of styrofoam such as "popcorn" or "peanuts", as these carry huge amounts of static electricity which may fry some sensitive components on the board.

Extra Note:
If you do end up buying a new P/S board, you must remove it from the metal frame and install it on the old metal frame. Even though the old and new frames are identical, I figured it would be easier (and safe from flexing) if I removed the old board and frame, and then installed the new board and frame. Problem is, once the board is installed on the metal frame, there are a few screws you can't get to for attaching the frame to the tv.

(or, at least I *think* that's how it went...)

jeff
-------

Mr Bob

04-06-07, 09:31 PM

Thanks everyone for quick replies.
Before I go replace the board route.
Mr. Bob can you do this work if I mailed you the board? (I am in Nashua,NH).
I would love you have you fix it and calibrate my TV if you are going to be in the area.

I will take a quick look at the board tomorrow.
It's a shame that Pioneer has poor quality on this board. We spent several thousand $ for these sets only to go bad in 5-6 years?
Is Pioneer doing anything about this?

My Sony XBR still lives on at my friends house (bought in 91).

Robert

Yes, I can resolder it here. I naturally charge a reduced rate from doing it on location, since you are doing all the removal and reinstallation that I would do during a full repair.

Of course I don't own a Pioneer and thus cannot test it, so you'll have to be really careful on your end.

I would leave it on the metal frame it is currently on, send the whole thing, fully mounted, to not be flexing it, which is a very valid concern. I will send it back that way also.

You won't have any trouble putting the plugs back in, none of them carry the same ID number of pins as any of the others, that go to the board. But pull them out of their sockets on the board BEFORE you remove the board itself. That way the board stays flat against the wooden bulkhead while you pull the plugs, again guarding it against flexation.

Contact me directly for details.

Mr Bob

Sam_Spade

04-29-07, 01:40 AM

transco

04-29-07, 01:47 AM

Mr Bob

04-29-07, 05:08 PM

I have a Pioneer Elite PRO510-HD that I purchased in Dec. 2000. Recently it started shutting itself off after a loud pop sound. The first few times it did this, I could turn it back on with the main power button after a waiting period. Now it will not turn-on at all -- the system turns on the green power LED for about 1 second, then it turns back off again.

I have always used plugged into a high-end power conditioner, and I have no other evidence of any power anomalies.

Can this be fixed by changing the power supply? Has anyone else had this problem?

Thanks!
Brian

Your sit is a prime example of being penny wise and pound foolish, as my Daddy used to say. You'd rather take a chance on doing SERIOUS damage to your set, possibly even ruining it/totalling it, rather than nipping this in the bud and turning the damn thing OFF until fixed, once you've seen that it has some sort of problem! It's a $5000 unit! How can you be so careless with it, as to push it over and over again, into the danger zone?

I deal with this all the time in the repair biz, and I guess I will have to continue to do so, the prevailing mentality being what it is. But it has been stated here on this thread over and over, DON'T let it get that far! Who knows what's wrong with your set now??? While it was still an intermittent problem, we could 99.9% trust that resoldering the PS board would fix it. Now it's anybody's guess.

YOU'RE PLAYING RUSSIAN ROULLETTE WITH YOUR MULTI-THOUSAND DOLLAR DISPLAY WHEN YOU DO THIS!

Hope you'll get lucky and find that nothing further has been ruined in there. (So far. The only reason you're doing something about this NOW is that you can't use the dang thing anymore NOW, until it gets fixed!)

Try resoldering the PS board as your first line of defense. Maybe you'll get lucky.

I try, I really try...

:rolleyes:

Mr Bob

Ndna Jnz

04-29-07, 05:23 PM

My experience was almost identical to the one described here. In fact mine was purchased at the same time. My set would typically be okay for an hour or so. Before I found this thread, I did not really know what to do other than calling a repair guy (since it was about a year out of warranty) and spend $$$. Eventually, after about ~6 months, my set would turn on with the green light on, but with no picture. After about 10 seconds the green light (and the tv) would shut off. At this point, I truly thought I was screwed. But then I found this thread and made 3 attempts to solder the P/S board but to no avail. I did seem a little improvement, but not full. After contacting Pioneer and then waiting 2 months for a "local service person" to call me (at Pioneer's expense), I never heard from anyone. I got tired of waiting and just ordered a new P/S board from Pioneer's parts website. The new P/S board fixed everything and has been fine for ~2 months now.

Mr Bob

04-29-07, 05:30 PM

Tom_Oliver

04-30-07, 11:47 PM

There is really no reason to not fix this. I was afraid to it myself, but it was stupid simple. If I can do it, anyone can. Just fix it. Took me all of an hour after procrastinating on it for months.

Your sit is a prime example of being penny wise and pound foolish, as my Daddy used to say. You'd rather take a chance on doing SERIOUS damage to your set, possibly even ruining it/totalling it, rather than nipping this in the bud and turning the damn thing OFF until fixed, once you've seen that it has some sort of problem! It's a $5000 unit! How can you be so careless with it, as to push it over and over again, into the danger zone?

I deal with this all the time in the repair biz, and I guess I will have to continue to do so, the prevailing mentality being what it is. But it has been stated here on this thread over and over, DON'T let it get that far! Who knows what's wrong with your set now??? While it was still an intermittent problem, we could 99.9% trust that resoldering the PS board would fix it. Now it's anybody's guess.

YOU'RE PLAYING RUSSIAN ROULLETTE WITH YOUR MULTI-THOUSAND DOLLAR DISPLAY WHEN YOU DO THIS!

Hope you'll get lucky and find that nothing further has been ruined in there. (So far. The only reason you're doing something about this NOW is that you can't use the dang thing anymore NOW, until it gets fixed!)

Try resoldering the PS board as your first line of defense. Maybe you'll get lucky.

I try, I really try...

:rolleyes:

Mr Bob

SidFisk

05-02-07, 06:36 PM

I've spent a good amount of time reading through these threads today -- but there is a lot to consume. One thing I figured out though is that there are a lot of good people here answering questions (especially this Mr. Bob guy!)

As of a couple of weeks ago, our TV started flashing randomly while watching content, playing games, or whatever. This isn't a "blue flash" that I think is discussed here a lot -- but more of a brightness push (almost white). I'm colorblind, so I'll have my wife look again and see if she sees any blue. I think it is more of a brightness flash that is more colored by the content behind it...if that makes sense.

A recent thread showed the horrors of attempting to fix this themselves and finally fixing it by just buying the part from Pioneer...so I'm likely going to buy the part.

So quick questions....

Is this "brightness flash" something that can be fixed by either resoldering or replacing the power supply assembly (as has been discussed in the threads)?

...or do I have something else going wrong?

How hard is it to just do the replacement?

...and last but not least... Mr. Bob, I'd like to explore the phone consultation on the cleaning details you've mentioned. I figure if I've already pulled the TV out to replace a part, I might as well take off the screen and do some cleaning to resurrect a TV we love oh so much.... Do I just send you a private mail?

Thanks!

Erik

PamW

05-02-07, 10:15 PM

Welcome. Erik!

Your "brightness flash" sounds like my problem, and, yes, the PS board replacement/or resolder should take care of it. PLEASE don't continue to use the set until you get it repaired!

I had a service contract so I got a replacement board (didn't cost me a dime under my service contract) but a lot of folks have had great luck by resoldering it themselves.
I know it will take a lot of time (hours!) to read, but please take the time to read this entire thread so you can be completely up to date on what's going on.

Best of luck - You'll be glad you fixed the problem!

Tom_Oliver

05-02-07, 11:41 PM

That's it. I called it a white flash until I found this thread. At first it was really faint, and I was the only one who even noticed it, but as time went on it got worse and worse and eventually the set started shutting off.

I thought about buying the part too, cause I was afraid to screw something up, but I ended up just soldering it and it's been fine ever since.

This helped me a ton. http://home.comcast.net/~larryh791/elitepsfix.html

I've spent a good amount of time reading through these threads today -- but there is a lot to consume. One thing I figured out though is that there are a lot of good people here answering questions (especially this Mr. Bob guy!)

As of a couple of weeks ago, our TV started flashing randomly while watching content, playing games, or whatever. This isn't a "blue flash" that I think is discussed here a lot -- but more of a brightness push (almost white). I'm colorblind, so I'll have my wife look again and see if she sees any blue. I think it is more of a brightness flash that is more colored by the content behind it...if that makes sense.

A recent thread showed the horrors of attempting to fix this themselves and finally fixing it by just buying the part from Pioneer...so I'm likely going to buy the part.

So quick questions....

Is this "brightness flash" something that can be fixed by either resoldering or replacing the power supply assembly (as has been discussed in the threads)?

...or do I have something else going wrong?

How hard is it to just do the replacement?

...and last but not least... Mr. Bob, I'd like to explore the phone consultation on the cleaning details you've mentioned. I figure if I've already pulled the TV out to replace a part, I might as well take off the screen and do some cleaning to resurrect a TV we love oh so much.... Do I just send you a private mail?

Thanks!

Erik

SidFisk

05-03-07, 11:23 AM

Thanks much to you both -- and I'll definitely be keeping it turned off until I get back there and pull the board.

Although I'm a bit anxious about it, I've soldered a bit in the past -- so I'll see what I can do...

Erik

Mr Bob

05-03-07, 03:52 PM

...and last but not least... Mr. Bob, I'd like to explore the phone consultation on the cleaning details you've mentioned. I figure if I've already pulled the TV out to replace a part, I might as well take off the screen and do some cleaning to resurrect a TV we love oh so much.... Do I just send you a private mail?

Thanks!

Erik

Contact me directly, not via pm here. My pm box here is full and I need to keep it strictly for emergencies. My contact info is given in my sig.

Mr Bob

cheebiek

05-05-07, 02:19 PM

I'm trying to organize a calibration trip for Mr. Bob to central Florida. I'm in New Smyrna Beach and I have my 710 and a local friend's 510 for him to work on. Anyone else in the area (Daytona Beach, Orlando, etc.) interested?

dem73

05-12-07, 03:04 PM

My trusty 8+ year old SD-P55A5-K has been randomly shutting itself off for about 6+ months, so I was considering buying a new TV.. only to discover most new DLP/etc sets are not exactly optimal for my viewing (standard def direcTV programming mostly,) and being pretty bummed out about having to spend a bunch of money on a crappy TV.

Then I saw this thread! Exact same problem!

I tore apart my set this morning and nudged E3 (different board, different location.. but still E3) - instantly the set popped and turned off.

Took it apart as much as I could (could not figure out how to get the connectors off the daughter card that plugs into E3.. so I just flipped the board) and reflowed all the pins on those connectors.

Buttoned it up.. turned it on.. looks good so far. No idea if it is fixed, but I'd be pleased if it lasted another couple of years until there were some "slam dunk" large screen TV options.

Thanks to everyone for their efforts around this issue. And screw pioneer for being lame. :)

Dennis
Sunnyvale, CA

Mr Bob

05-12-07, 07:25 PM

bckncook

05-15-07, 02:52 AM

RCSea

05-15-07, 04:08 AM

I just wanted to add my name to the list of people who have had this same 'flashing/power off problem'. I had an electrician/HDTV repairman out to work on my Pro610, and he initially resoldered some connections but that didn't fix the problem (although the flashing/brightness problem decreased, the power-offs happened at about the same rate). I didn't know what he had done, as I hadn't heard about this problem before. Over the course of four visits he replaced a few smaller parts and the main board to no avail. It took a few visits because the set never exhibited symptoms while he was in my home to look at it. I found this thread and had him try resoldering the power supply board again this morning, and as soon as he put it under his magnifier he saw that he had missed the connection pins at E2 and said 'oops, there's the problem'. We could see a bad solder connection there. He fixed the solder on those and then just went over the whole board touching up a lot of stuff. He did the whole thing in about 10 minutes, it probably would have taken me about 2 hours since I rarely use a soldering gun. After putting the board back in, the TV has now been on about 8 hours so far and not one single flash, contrast/brightness change, or power off.

I really don't understand how this could not be considered a recall-class problem. I've never owned any piece of consumer-grade electronics that had this kind of shoddy workmanship that didn't cost less than $50. I don't see how this problem won't happen eventually to every single 510/610/710 from this production run.

I definitely will never buy a Pioneer product again, despite the fact that I still love my 610.

PamW

05-15-07, 07:16 AM

Just came home from out of town. The PRO710 won't turn on. Just getting the red light only.

Nothing happens when I hit the Standby/On button. If I turn off the Main Power button and then turn it back on, I get a couple clicking/popping sounds, but no green light, and obviously no picture or sound.

Have NEVER had any other symptoms before now, period. Set has been 100% perfect since buying it in late 2000.

With no other symptoms and no buildup to this climax, is this the power supply soldering issue everyone is talking about?

Either way, what is recommended at this point? Thanks in advance for the advice.
Since you were out of town, do you happen to know if your area has had any lightning storms? Your set could have been hit. We had a fabulous stereo receiver (yep, you guessed... Pioneer) that got fried by a short and swift storm that went through our area while we were at church one night.

bckncook

05-15-07, 11:45 AM

Mr Bob

05-16-07, 07:41 AM

Don't know if there was a storm or not, but it's hooked up behind a 2200VA AVR UPS that lasts about 30 minutes even if everything is turned on -- and well over a day when everything is off -- so there's a 99% chance it never would have known if there was a storm either : )

Does anyone think it's the power supply, or does someone else agree that the 1% chance may have happened? I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty inside one of these things if I know what to do, so how do I tell what the problem is?

Remove the back down below - NOT THE MIRROR, NEVER REMOVE THE MIRROR SECTION FROM THE BACK - and see which red LEDs are lit up on each board.

If the deflection board has a red LED lit up on it, that board must be replaced.

If the conv bd has one, the ICs on it need to be replaced, which is kind of a bitchy job, as it has a second story elevated board mounted to the main conv bd. It will also prolly have blown fuses on the PS board.

If there's a red LED lit ONLY on the PS board, chances are the resoldering op will fix it.

pmeyer

05-20-07, 02:38 PM

Mr Bob

05-20-07, 02:49 PM

I pulled and resoldered the PSU board of my 610 back in January. Cleaned the optics while I was at it. That fixed my blue flash problem for ~4 months. Over the last two weeks it's started up again. Last night watching Lost (HD DVR), it was flashing all over the place. It even went black for a few seconds after one flash! First time for that.

So, today I pulled the back off again. Put on the same Lost episode and let it play for half an hour. No flashes. Nada, nothing. So I called my wife up and had her watch while I poked around with a wooden pencil/eraser. Nothing until I poked the E4 connector. Major blue flash. Nothing else seemed to have an effect.

Pulled the board (much easier this time: all the connector/socket pairs are already marked from last time I pulled it). Heated up the soldering iron, reflowed e4 and a bunch of other random connections an put it back in. Elapsed time, maybe 1 hour.

Reassembled and the TV works. No blue flash, but that doesn't prove anything at this point since there was nothing immediately before the soldering either. Hopefully this will get me through another four months.

I'm wondering if there could be a problem in the E4 connector rather than the socket. We'll see how it goes.

I am of the proven opinion that nothing short of virtually complete resoldering is adequate to this task, and you see why, now. Conn's that were not necessarily bad then, will keep going bad later, one after the other.

Soldering virtually everything on that board can be more problematical than targeting specific points, because many of the points that have gotten fatigued are really tiny, and it's easy to do solder bridges on any 2 of them without realizing it. Some conns are under white caulking goop they used to immobilize wiring that bridges parts of the board.

The only exception I make to resoldering everything is heat sinks and test points, both of which go nowhere, and as such connection is a non-issue anyway.

To totally resolder a board takes me about 2 hours. Doing targeted points would obviously take me MUCH less time, but I just don't believe in that.

This is why I never get these boards back with further problems days/weeks/months/years later, when I resolder them my way. They stay fixed, just like all the other copious numbers of boards in there - the PS board is just one of many, in there - which virtually never have any problems at all, either. Ever. They were soldered right the first time, too, and you just don't have to worry about them going out years down the line.

Mr Bob

Trigger445

05-20-07, 07:48 PM

Remove the back down below - NOT THE MIRROR, NEVER REMOVE THE MIRROR SECTION FROM THE BACK - and see which red LEDs are lit up on each board.

If the deflection board has a red LED lit up on it, that board must be replaced.

If the conv bd has one, the ICs on it need to be replaced, which is kind of a bitchy job, as it has a second story elevated board mounted to the main conv bd. It will also prolly have blown fuses on the PS board.

If there's a red LED lit ONLY on the PS board, chances are the resoldering op will fix it.

Mr. Bob,
Hi--it is me from Las Vegas--you did the convergence, etc back in January on my PRO 510HD while you were here for CES, and we ate steak at my house. Well, just about two hours ago, while watching TV, the screen went blank and the red power light on the front lit up. Unplugging, etc didn't do anything--the most I can get is the red power light on the front. I took the back off, pulled the PS board, and resoldered the "usual" points (like I had to do about 1.5 years ago), put the board back in, still only thing that will light up is the red light on front. There is a red light lit up on the PS board in back, with an arrow pointing to it labeled "power down". Does this mean a suspect PS board again? Can't see any other red lights back there on any other boards. I'll go resolder everything on the PS board in the mean time. Thanks

Trigger445

05-21-07, 01:05 AM

Mr Bob

05-21-07, 12:47 PM

Spent about 2 hrs resoldered most of the joints, not all, but most, and still only can get the red light on front and the red "power down" light on the PS board. There are no other LEDs lit up inside the tv set. I wonder if something could be physically wrong with the board or a component on the board, and I could resolder until I am blue in the face and it wouldn't help??? Now to figure out which PS board it is, as AWV-1795A is etched into the board, but it says V -1872A on a sticker nearby.

edit: fuses on the PS board seem intact--3 are clear glass with an intact wire going through and one is all white--just like others who have posted pictures of the PS board on here. SO, I am guessing it is a PS board problem only.

I am always available for the resoldering op during a cal, even if a Pio owner has had absolutely no problems. This is the case in a major number of the Elite cals I have done this year, with the repair being necessitated in a minor number of cases. In your case of course, you had to do some resoldering of your own 1.5 years ago, so it wasn't like you had had no problems yet at all.

Once you have done the resoldering job, if there are now solder bridges between points on your board, this could now be causing the same symptoms even if you have accurately remedied the offending cold solder joint. You'll have to go back with a fine tooth comb and examine ALL the points, esp. the smallest of them. Also the ones beneath the white caulking goop, which you may not be readily able to see. Feel free to remove that goop if necessary, those wires are thick and strong and are now not going anywhere. They are much more apt to become unsolidified if the unit has worldwide transit to negotiate, as is the case when new, straight out of the factory, hence the goop.

If you don't find any solder bridges, and have done all the soldering you can find to do, you may have to get a new board, or send yours to me and let me try my hand at it.

One of the most overlooked resolders necessary is the ONE screw that is soldered in place to one of the heatsinks, on the bottom of the board. It comes loose, even tho it looks totally intact. You have to heat it up, loosening the solder on it, tighten it strongly with a #2 Philips while it's loose - it's always rather loose once the solder is molten, I've found - touch it with the solder and then let it cool down again, once tight and resoldered.

This one screw caused me to have to go back a third time on an older Pioneer that was very far from home for me, many years ago, and was the one thing that finally allowed the repair to stick, afterwards. Before that I was just tearing my hair out, as I had done every other resolder joint in the blasted thing, and the screw soldering was glossy and gleaming and looked just fine! But after a few days it would keep going out. After that screw was resoldered, it stayed fixed and I FINALLY never saw the beast again!

Mr Bob

PS - My mouth still waters when I think of that steak, BTW...

;)

Trigger445

05-21-07, 09:46 PM

Now to figure out which PS board it is, as AWV-1795A is etched into the board, but it says V -1872A on a sticker nearby.

To answer my own question: I called Pioneer CS today to order a new board. The AWV-1795 is for the "old models", and the AWV-1872 is for the "new models", just as the website says. At least on the PRO510HD (and I suspect it is the same on the other PRO HD models), the way you can tell if you have the old model is to look at the fifth character in the serial number of the TV (the first four characters are letters, the fifth character is the first number). That number will be a "zero" if it is the old version, or a "one" if it is the new version. Don't know what the differences are in the old and new TV versions, nor with the old and new PS boards.

The first number (ie fifth character) on mine is a "one", so I ordered an 1872 PS board. It was about $325 + $100 core charge (refundable when you send back the broken one intact) + $15 for 2-day shipping. Should be here Weds. If that new board fixes it, I might try one last time to fix the PS board I have, and keep it as a "spare" (figuring it is only worth about $85 to me, since I have to pay to ship it back to get my $100 credit). We'll see--I hope the new board isn't as crappy as the old board.

Trigger445

05-21-07, 09:52 PM

In your case of course, you had to do some resoldering of your own 1.5 years ago, so it wasn't like you had had no problems yet at all.

Yep, since that solder 1.5 years ago, there have been zero problems, right up until yesterday's one time (so far permanent) shutdown.

One of the most overlooked resolders necessary is the ONE screw that is soldered in place to one of the heatsinks, on the bottom of the board. It comes loose, even tho it looks totally intact. You have to heat it up, loosening the solder on it, tighten it strongly with a #2 Philips while it's loose - it's always rather loose once the solder is molten, I've found - touch it with the solder and then let it cool down again, once tight and resoldered.

I put extra solder on that one yesterday, but didn't tighten it down first--I'll give it a closer look.

Another question. Since I have ordered a new PS board (see previous post), will I lose all the work you did with the convergence and color adjustments and overscan reduction once I replace the board, or is that stored on some other board with EEPROM?

Thanks again Mr Bob.

Trigger445

05-21-07, 11:35 PM

Resoldered some more conns, checked close ones real good-didn't see any bridges but used an exacto knife in between and redid some just in case. No help. Hopefully the new PS board will make it all better.

Mr Bob

05-23-07, 11:40 AM

Another question. Since I have ordered a new PS board (see previous post), will I lose all the work you did with the convergence and color adjustments and overscan reduction once I replace the board, or is that stored on some other board with EEPROM?

Thanks again Mr Bob.

DK. Haven't had to deal with this yet, before. If so, tho, keep the old board until you find the eeproms that carry all the info, and transfer that to the new board.

Have no idea whether it is on the PS or the Defl, but would suspect on the defl, keeping the cal intact if you just replace the PS.

Mr Bob

Trigger445

05-25-07, 01:32 AM

DK. Haven't had to deal with this yet, before. If so, tho, keep the old board until you find the eeproms that carry all the info, and transfer that to the new board.

Have no idea whether it is on the PS or the Defl, but would suspect on the defl, keeping the cal intact if you just replace the PS.

Mr Bob

New PS board arrived today, and I put it in. No issues; two hours of TV later, it seems to be working fine (knock on wood). The user level convergence, in red, was off just-a-little (center and multi-point)(perhaps because I moved the TV out and back to get to the back panel), but other than that, it seems to have held the other work you did (no hard facts, just visually looking at the picture).

Didn't look much at the solder joints on the back of the new board, as it shipped with the steel mount attached making it difficult to see the joints. Installation was very quick/easy (two grounding screws, and one mounting screw, then lift the old bracket up and off, then install new mount with the board attached).

Mr Bob

05-25-07, 03:48 PM

New PS board arrived today, and I put it in. No issues; two hours of TV later, it seems to be working fine (knock on wood). The user level convergence, in red, was off just-a-little (center and multi-point)(perhaps because I moved the TV out and back to get to the back panel), but other than that, it seems to have held the other work you did (no hard facts, just visually looking at the picture).

Didn't look much at the solder joints on the back of the new board, as it shipped with the steel mount attached making it difficult to see the joints. Installation was very quick/easy (two grounding screws, and one mounting screw, then lift the old bracket up and off, then install new mount with the board attached).

Then you prolly won't have any worries about eeproms.

Glad that did the ticket. Once you moved her back into the original position, any user static convergence should have gone back to its original positioning, even if it went out a bit when you changed its angle or its position, which it will do when those things are changed.

The picture I left your set with was nothing short of hypnotic, and you deserve to continue to have that experience out of her for at LEAST the next 5 years, and I think even longer.

Bring me more Pioneer HDreadys! I want to save every one of them!

Mr Bob

maxdog03

05-27-07, 12:29 AM

Mr Bob

05-27-07, 04:16 PM

My Pioneer Elite Pro-98 just died. The power went completely off and I tried plugging it back directly into the wall and bypassing the surge strip and power light came on green and instantly went to red and shut off. Any ideas out there?

Pioneer has been having cold solder joint problems since long before the HDready series. Quite frankly from what I saw of them before HDreadys came along, I am actually quite surprised only the PS boards on only their x10 series - and the non-Elite versions, which use the same PS board - of HDready have them.

I predict that if you look at your main power board, you'll find at least one cold solder joint. I have repaired many of the SD-P series, and this has virtually always been the cause.

I once fixed one down in Half Moon Bay, and had to go back 6 months later and found a couple more cold solders on a board I had already resoldered the major ones on.

Even then I was seeing little halos around the legs of the smaller pads, but dismissed them at that time, and didn't want to do them for fear of accidentally creating solder bridges and having deeper problems because of that.

If you've been reading this thread any, you know how I feel about THAT now!

Mr Bob

rscultho

06-04-07, 09:12 PM

Firstly, thanks to everyone for their contribution to this fix. I have a PRO-710, bought it in 1999, and have been experiencing the flash problem since about 2004. The flashing got progressively worse over time. Starting in January of this year I started getting the power shutdown as well. I thought my magnificent TV was nearing its demise.

But I happened upon this thread today morning (6/4/2007) after a general search through Google. This was not the first time I had tried to find info on this problem. A couple of years ago I tried to get info on it, but all I could get was from a local repair shop that told me the guns were about to go bad and I should ride it until it dropped dead.

I did this repair this afternoon. I did it immediately. I was an ET in the Navy many years ago, but still remember how to solder components and troubleshoot electronics to a degree. So, just pulling this board and re-soldering the leads was nothing. I did not want to wait any longer after reading this thread.

I finished the repair at 4:52 PM EST today. I have been watching the set since then with no flashing. The picture has definitely improved as well. While inside it I did notice that dust was over everything, and so it needs to be professionally cleaned. That will be next on the list.

I will keep my fingers crossed and hope the flashing has indeed been nixed.

Again thanks to everyone for their contributions!!!

Mr Bob

06-04-07, 10:08 PM

Firstly, thanks to everyone for thier contribution to this fix. I have a PRO-710, bought it in 1999, and have been experiencing the flash problem since about 2004. The flashing got progressively worse over time. Starting in January of this year I started getting the power shitdown as well. I thought my magnificent TV was nearing its demise.

But I happened upon this thread today morning (6/4/2007) after a general search through Google. This was not the first time I had tried to find info on this problem. A couple of years ago I tried to get info on it, but all I could get was from a local repair shop that told me the guns were about to go bad and I should ride it until it dropped dead.

I did this repair this afternoon. I did it immediately. I was an ET in the Navy many years ago, but still remember how to solder components and troubleshoot electronics to a degre. So, just pulling this board and re-soldering the leads was nothing. I did not want to wait any longer after reading this thread.

I finished the repair at 4:52 PM EST today. I have been watching the set since then with no flashing. The picture has definitely improved as well. While inside it I did notice that dust was over everything, and so it needs to be professionally cleaned. That will be next on the list.

I will keep my fingers crossed and hope the flashing has indeed been nixed.

Again thanks to everyone for their contributions!!!

:cool:

Mr Bob

PS - If you know of any way to get the solution out any farther and wider, please implement! I want to see them ALL fixed, regardless of whether I do the fixing or not, so I can clean and calibrate each and every one, and restore each and every one to its rightful glory.

It goes against my grain to see these fine machines going down right and left just because they were in the condition yours was in, when they are ALL still emminently capable of delivering some of the finest pictures out there, and standing tall up against - and alongside, if not better than - any other set being sold today, same-sized or not!

rscultho

06-05-07, 07:26 AM

Mr Bob - can you recommend someone in the Atlanta, Georgia, area that can clean the guns without damaging them?

Also, can you give me an idea of the cost involved?

Thanks

Mr Bob

06-05-07, 07:45 AM

Mr Bob - can you recommend someone in the Atlanta, Georgia, area that can clean the guns without damaging them?

Also, can you give me an idea of the cost involved?

Thanks

Talk about timing! I am coming to Atlanta as part of my upcoming tour, starting in Daytona on Monday June 11. I will be in Atlanta the following week. The plane tickets were just finalized today. Fortunately in this case they are flexible, as the guy doing the tickets is using his flight miles, and the other guys are paying him directly the equivalent flight $. Allowing excellent flexibility for last minute cal tour joiners. It is not always so convenient!

Contact me directly and I will put you in touch with the ringleaders.

At the present time I am looking for additional optics cleaning gigs, and we have room on the tour for another cal or 2 also. The Friday of the first week is open as we speak - while I am still in Daytona - and ready for a cal or optics cleaning appointment, if anyone reading this is interested, whether they have a Pioneer or not. Virtually all brands of CRT RPTV are eligible for cals, and ALL brands are eligible for my optics cleaning procedures.

I am going to be in Daytona for the first few days, arriving Monday night after flying all day and an hour and a half layover in Atlanta on the way. Then several repairs and calibrations, mostly on Elites, then to Orlando, the weekend off, then to Atlanta for at least one more repair and cal. I would be glad to do your optics cleaning gig at that time.

Or a full calibration, which would include the regular optics cleaning, if you'd like.

For the regular optics cleaning, meaning removing the front screen and cleaning the mirror and lens tops, I don't charge anything over and above the basic cal package cost as long as you are having a cal done, as it is included in the basic cal package of $485 for your primary scanrate. Done separately, I charge the travel plus $150. Travel is your part of the overall flight costs, plus you provide a rental car and $75/hr ground travel if necessary. If you pick me up and are within half an hour of wherever you're picking me up, we just enjoy the ride together and there are no ground travel charges. If I have to rent a car to get to you and back, that's where the $75/hr kicks in.

If your set needs the deeper optics cleaning - and we don't know that until the regular optics are clean and we can see thru clearly to the deeper optics - that runs $150 extra for a Pioneer, $200 extra for an older Sony where the rear has to come off along with the front.

If there is any question as to whether the deeper optics needs to be done, on a Pioneer I simply charge $50/lens for its removal/cleaning/reinstallation. If after going in on one you don't feel the other 2 need it, all you've spent is an extra $50.

On a Pioneer, of course, I NEVER remove the mirror section from the rear! Do NOT want to court disaster on that one! Been there, done that. Never again.

ALL CRT RPTVs require optics cleaning on a regular, repeat basis due to the 30KV of HV inherent in CRT use - see my website for details. I clean my optics once a year, with the deeper optics cleaning whenever necessary. It is usually necessary on Pioneers, due to the 1/8" gap they leave between the lenses and the CRT coolant covers. Dust and smoke crawl in there like you would not believe, ionized by the HV. The rears of the lenses virtually always need cleaning while inside also, because of the smoke that gets on them - gravity plays very little part in what gets onto the CRT coolant covers and the lens rears.

Which means that you get 2 more surfaces per color done when the deeper optics cleaning is done. 6 more surfaces get cleaned in the deeper optics cleaning than get done in the regular optics cleaning, where 4 - the mirror and lens tops - are done. That's 10 surfaces that get cleaned when the deeper optics cleaning is done - 9 on the lenses and 1 on the mirror.

The differences are staggering, before and after the optics cleaning op. Like the murkiness in the initial scenes of Finding Nemo vs. the out of water scenes later, which are dazzlingly clear, in comparison.

Mr Bob

PS - these pix were both taken the same day, before and after my optics cleaning methods, on a 7 year old Pioneer that had never been cleaned. You might want to turn down your monitor's brightness, due to the way they capture on this site, to get the full effect. On my prints of the same thing it is much more pronounced, and the blacks clamp to black better.

As you can see, after an optics cleaning, your set is looking like new again. Ready for all the nice things that can then be done to it after that during a cal, to completely restore its image perfection.

rscultho

06-05-07, 12:40 PM

Unfortunately I don't have the funds for this currently. But perhaps in the future I can catch you when you swing back through.

Thanks very much for all of the info

Mr Bob

06-05-07, 02:17 PM

Unfortunately I don't have the funds for this currently. But perhaps in the future I can catch you when you swing back through.

Thanks very much for all of the info

Get me while you can. There has been only one Atlanta tour before this one, and that was earlier this year. Many of those interested in your area have now been taken care of, and won't need my attention again for a year or 2. I may not be back thru there again anytime soon, tho of course I would like to.

You can live without the razor sharp picture and the overscan reduction I can do for you, but the optics cleaning needs to happen as the very first and most highly prioritized item, if you want to be able to see your picture clearly. It is the first and many times only thing I offer after a repair, to cause the most noticeable improvement in picture quality. Of course after a repair I am already there, so no additional travel costs. But it's definitely that important, and needs to be done with great care and experience, to avoid the possibly permanent hazards and pitfalls that can happen with this op, the possibly permanent damage to now irreplaceable parts, in there. You don't want just anybody in there playing with your irreplaceable and highly scratchable optics, most of all your lenses and CRT coolant covers. Scratches are permanent, and severely curtail the actual potential of your images - their 3 dimensionality, transparency, inky blacks and proper clamp-to-black levels, and true depth viewing potential, when the optical path is so clear it seems to disappear.

Next only to possibly removing the glare screen first, it's always the first op I do, in my cals. It is always something that shoulda been done every year without fail for clear as glass viewing, and those owning a 510/610/710 who have never had it done are just a little late - like about 5-6 years.

Mr Bob

Trigger445

06-08-07, 01:32 AM

Unfortunately I don't have the funds for this currently. But perhaps in the future I can catch you when you swing back through.

Thanks very much for all of the info

rscultho,
if there is any way you can scrape up the money, the deep optics cleaning will do a huge, huge "bang for the buck" change to your picture. If you can scrape up some extra, the calibration will produce a very good change for the money. The overscan reduction will also help, but at a much less "Bang for the buck". I'd try to get him while you can, for at least the optics cleaning. If you can't, at least pay him some money for a consult, and see if he can talk you through it.

See my post 822 on page 28.
Trigger

cheebiek

06-17-07, 12:06 PM

As you read on previous posts, Mr. Bob is in the process of completing a calibration tour in Florida and Atlanta. He worked on my set (Pioneer Elite Pro 710) and did a great job. I started a new thread titled "Mr. Bob does Florida" for anyone who wants to read about or share their experience.

Gary K

Mr Bob

06-20-07, 05:31 AM

heavyhitter2k0

06-20-07, 09:16 PM

Mr Bob

06-20-07, 09:27 PM

I'm having problems with my PRO-510HD my problem is that the image comes in triple vision. The picture in the middle looks fine but on the right side it comes in again in translucent blue and the left in translucent red? I was just wondering is it worth fixing it or just replaceing it?

Convergence problem. Get it fixed, it's little more serious than having your thermostat replaced in your car. Would you replace your car because your thermostat needed replacement?

I am availalable for the repair itself or for phone consultation.

We need to save these units, they are getting fewer and farther between. When they are gone, they're gone. They deliver the stealth grade HD picture that CRT is famous for.

If nothing else, somebody on this thread may want to take it off your hands.

Mr Bob

heavyhitter2k0

06-20-07, 10:07 PM

ok thank you. One more question how much will it cost to fix, what do u think the range is? I stay in Chicago.

Mr Bob

06-21-07, 11:12 AM

ok thank you. One more question how much will it cost to fix, what do u think the range is? I stay in Chicago.

I charge travel at $75/hr RT plus $350 plus parts, which it may or may not need. In Chicago it may cost less, DK.

Mr Bob

Fireguy

06-24-07, 11:49 AM

Just picked up a Pioneer Elite 510HD yesterday for $80. After reading over this thread, I feel I robbed the guy. I also think I've got the problem figured out on why it's going to Standby when you try and power it on. I'll check for LED lights tomorrow when I power it on and look over the fuses and solder points then get back with you.

Mr Bob

06-24-07, 12:08 PM

TrashFaceJoe

06-24-07, 07:56 PM

Mr Bob

06-24-07, 09:36 PM

I bought a 510 HD a while back and fixed it but now I've run into another problem.

My blue convergence is way off and i can't adjust it though the TV menu. I've been reading a couple other forums and they tell me I have to replace the blue convergence IC (STK's.) Anywho, i was hoping if there is a less drastic way to approaching this problem. and if not, is there any way i have get a hold of those specific part numbers, possibly a tutorial or layout, and a link to buy them. I think while I'm at it I might as well replace the red convergence IC. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks a head of time.

The x10 series uses a pair of STK 392-110's. Electronix.com is the cheapest place online to get them, but chances are they are off brand. Sanyo's are the best ICs to use.

Be sure and be liberal with the heat sink compound, for good heat transfer between the ICs and the heat sink, and if the old compound has dried out, be sure and remove it completely before installing the new ICs. A paint scraper is good for this, followed by wiping the surface squeaky clean with a paper towel.

Mr Bob

motobill

06-27-07, 02:45 PM

I have owned my 510HD since early 2001. Since the beginning, it's been installed in a recessed custom cabinet (more on this later) with maybe 3/4" space all around. Early last year (2006) I started having the blue flash (which to me looks white). It got progressively worse over the course of last year - it would happen more frequently, the screen would go black and, if the picture came back on without shutting the TV off, it was accompanied by a startling pop. Finally in September 2006 I contacted Pioneer who directed me to authorized service centers in my area. I specifically asked whether this was widespread and the person I spoke to said there wasn't a service notice on it.

Next I paid $110 to have a tech come out and diagnose the problem as...you guessed it...a power supply board replacement. Cost - $873, and the initial service call charge doesn't get credited to the repair. NICE! I decided to live with the problem since it was intermittent. In the meantime I bought a Sony KDL40V2500 for the bedroom, which has a clouding issue that's well documented on these boards. As I was researching the Sony problem, I came upon the AVS Forum, but never thought to check it re:my 510HD's problem. Recently, the 510 has been acting up more frequently and I decided to pull out the service slip, but was conflicted (as many here have been) about whether to spend almost a grand to fix a 5 year old TV, or junk it and get a new set for an extra grand. I went to the Sony store last weekend to check out replacement sets, and found an RPTV that would fit my built-in and for $2K+/- is 1080p. Still, leaving the 510HD at the curb didn't sit right with me, but neither did the repair cost. Then it dawned on me to check AVS Forum and see what I could find. I found this thread pretty quickly and voila. After reading the first 15 pages, I decided to take the soldering route v. ordering a new board. Monday night I pulled the board, resoldered all the connectors, IC202 and IC204 and the heat sink to the screw (by the way, nothing was obviously cold, haloed, etc). Reinstalled it and haven't had a flicker since. I WANT TO THANK EVERYONE, ESPECIALLY THE EARLY POSTERS, FOR ALL THE INFORMATION.

Now, my final point. Somewhere in one of the early posts, there was something about lack of adequate ventilation being a possible cause of solder failure. Since over the past 5 years the TV has had low to moderate use, I was suprised when problems started early last year since it had low mileage. After reading and thinking about poor airflow behind the set (I should mention, I also have 2 power supplies for remote stereo speakers sitting on the floor behind the TV) I think part of my problem may be due to the built-in installation (as I said earlier, maybe 3/4" gap all around - not much). So now I'm adding a 120mm computer fan behind the set to try and move more air.

This story has a happy ending, and again I want to thank everyone who's contributed.

rscultho

06-28-07, 07:04 AM

The repair is weeks old now and I have not had a flash or problem of any kind. As as others have said as well, the picture on my 710 actually looks better now. Both my son and wife have made that comment.

Mr Bob

06-28-07, 11:13 AM

Now, my final point. Somewhere in one of the early posts, there was something about lack of adequate ventilation being a possible cause of solder failure. Since over the past 5 years the TV has had low to moderate use, I was suprised when problems started early last year since it had low mileage. After reading and thinking about poor airflow behind the set (I should mention, I also have 2 power supplies for remote stereo speakers sitting on the floor behind the TV) I think part of my problem may be due to the built-in installation (as I said earlier, maybe 3/4" gap all around - not much). So now I'm adding a 120mm computer fan behind the set to try and move more air.

This story has a happy ending, and again I want to thank everyone who's contributed.

There are copious numbers of boards in there, yet only the PS board ever has an irritatingly repeat and expectable problem like flashing and shutdown, on the x10 series. This is the same whether the unit is free standing or in a cabinet.

Cold solder joints are caused by heat and cold, heat and cold, expand/contract, expand/contract. This is caused by turn on/turn off, which is pretty much necessary for most consumer electronics. That's why computer server rooms on server farms are kept at a FIRMLY FIXED, never varying temp. It never varies on any of the servers, once each is energized. They never shut them down, they never let them get cold, nor hot. Therefore there is no expansion nor contraction ever allowed to happen, therefore they don't have to worry about cold solder joints, esp. on multi-layer boards.

I commend your adding a fan - keeping things cooler can only help - but don't think overheating was really the root of your problem.

The real root of your problem was the too-thin solder used by Pioneer on this run of units - which was maybe just a bad batch - but in any case, was not quite ready for prime time.

Mr Bob

chiznutz

06-28-07, 01:23 PM

Yup. You robbed the guy.

Now enjoy it! Get it fixed and have me calibrate it! Or have me do both.

Mr Bob

Keep, we pulled the boards and sodered a couple places that looked a little on the weak side. There were no obvious burns or anything on the board that looked like it was wasted, but we're still getting the red LED light on the two boards. So my question, would it be a better idea to get the board fixed or replaced? Also, is there a way to take a meter and see were the problem is?

Schonathan(fireguy)

Mr Bob

06-28-07, 01:58 PM

Keep, we pulled the boards and sodered a couple places that looked a little on the weak side. There were no obvious burns or anything on the board that looked like it was wasted, but we're still getting the red LED light on the two boards. So my question, would it be a better idea to get the board fixed or replaced? Also, is there a way to take a meter and see were the problem is?

Schonathan(fireguy)

Which board is your second board that has its LED lit up?

As I said earlier in this thread, if the conv bd has its LED lit up, it needs to be repaired, which is much better than getting it replaced.

If it's your deflection bd, just replace it and go from there. Chances are the LED on the PS board will no longer be lit.

Any time there is a board other than the PS board with its LED lit, an LED will light up on the PS board. If you remedy that other board's problems and the LED on the PS board goes out, so no lites are lit there or on any other board, there's nothing currently wrong with your PS board and your set should work fine.

The factory PS boards still have that thin solder on them, tho.

A meter can help you for presence of voltages on the conv bd and for fuses on the PS bd, but that's about it.

Mr Bob

chiznutz

06-28-07, 02:23 PM

SoCalElite

06-28-07, 07:12 PM

Mr Bob

06-28-07, 10:33 PM

Okay, we're both kinda new at working on these, so we're still learning the lingo. The first board is on the far right side where the plug comes into the back of the set, the board is also on it's end and faceing out. The other board is next to it and lays fat of it's back. It's the one that has all the fat red wires and, for lack of a better term, power packs on it. They are the two that are show the LEDs.

If you'd like, I have YIM and MSN if that would be easier to converse over.

Schonathan (fireguy)

The one that lays flat, parallel to the floor, with the thick red wires going out of it is your deflection board and the probable cause of both red LEDs being lit. You need to replace it. I can get one for you for a profit, or you can call Pioneer and order one yourself, and install it yourself. That should do it. You could resolder the PS board, but both lights would still be lit when you were done. I've had it happen, just that way. It's better to solder the PS board ONLY when that's the only one whose LED is lit up. Otherwise you could cause solder bridges in there and have their existence clouded by the other problems.

If that makes the other LED go out, the one on the PS board, and no LEDs are lit and your set then works properly, you're home free.

At which point your set is ready to go, and should then be cleaned and calibrated and made ready for the next 5 years of movie theater grade, videophile grade, stealth grade viewing that these Elites are capable of. 2 cal tours of primarily Pioneer Elites so far this year, one I just got home from (the Florida one, look up the thread "Mr. Bob does Florida", there's also the "Mr. Bob does Atlanta!" thread), are testimony to that.

Mr Bob

motobill

07-04-07, 04:38 PM

After reading and thinking about poor airflow behind the set (I should mention, I also have 2 power supplies for remote stereo speakers sitting on the floor behind the TV) I think part of my problem may be due to the built-in installation (as I said earlier, maybe 3/4" gap all around - not much). So now I'm adding a 120mm computer fan behind the set to try and move more air.

So here are pictures of the fan I added over the PS board.

I used computer standoffs, rather than mounting the fan directly to the back, because I don't want to pull dirt and other crap through the TV chasis, I just want to dissipate the heat. I realize adding the fan will probably have zero benefit in preventing solder failure or other problems from occurring in the future, on the other hand, it can't hurt.

Trigger445

07-08-07, 02:36 PM

on the other hand, it can't hurt.

Although it truly "can't hurt" anything permanently, you might end up with more dust flying around in there, possibly landing on the lenses and coolant caps and mirror, and necessitating an optics/deep optics cleaning a little more often. Perhaps a small price to pay for a possible fix (or at least some peace of mind for you). Nice mod.

Mr Bob

07-09-07, 12:07 AM

Although it truly "can't hurt" anything permanently, you might end up with more dust flying around in there, possibly landing on the lenses and coolant caps and mirror, and necessitating an optics/deep optics cleaning a little more often. Perhaps a small price to pay for a possible fix (or at least some peace of mind for you). Nice mod.

Don't recall if the Pioneers have a separator between the boards and the lenses, as I always clean everything from the front.

But many brands use a cardboard sheet painted black to separate the optical cavity from the electronics beneath.

If so, that would basically shield the optics from dust flying due to the fan, tho possibly not real thoroughly.

Best way would be to seal that area off from such dust thoroughly, if such a separator would not be doing the best job as it is.

An ionizer behind your TV will also help. It will make the incoming dust and airborn particulates stick to the OUTSIDE of the unit; they won't be able to penetrate the cracks and crevices, they instead will be statically drawn to the edges on the way in, and as such will not be able to get in.

Mr Bob

ucBearcat

07-30-07, 11:07 AM

Mr Bob

07-30-07, 12:08 PM

I have a 610 that I've had since 2000 that just started showing the flash problem. I'm probably going to bring the board down to a local shop to have it resoldered.

Mr. Bob, do you make frequent tours down to OC? I've been previously calibrated but it's due for a tune up. I had Greg Lowen do it the first time and it made an unbelievable difference in the set. I was thinking of dumping it for one of the newer technologies but decided against it at the last moment and was very happy I did.

Oh, and THANK YOU to all who've posted this info ... I too was thinking it was time for a new set.

Sorry, think I missed this one in one of my super busy weeks...

I go wherever I am flown in. I have been to OC for cals many times, it's relatively cheap to fly me there and back, an owner can have me in there for very little cost, not much more than it would take to get me there if you were local, around here. With or without fellow compadres involved to reduce the overall travel expenses, tho the more work while I am there the better. I fly out of OAK.

General optics cleanings, needed every couple of years and incredibly cheap at travel plus $150, can flesh out a SoCal tour nicely, but should be treated as an afterthought, not a requirement. It's so cheap to get me down there and back to OC, you should be making plans to have me down right now, so I can fly out in 2 weeks, the minimum time for the great prices on plane tix.

Some plane tix are cheap even a week or a few days away, if you get lucky. I fly to Santa Barbara Thursday, and that ticket was just purchased a few days ago.

The owner there uses www.kayak.com.

Mr Bob

Mr Bob

07-30-07, 12:16 PM

Well, it happened. After a year of the PS fix, my 610 has popped again. I've redone the solder and it still won't work. Then I noticed that the two fuses were blown that Mr. Bob had mentioned in a previous post. I replaced the fuses and it works for about 1 hr then pops again and a fuse is blown. The red light on the PS board is on, but no light on the deflective board and no other lights on any other boards I can see. I assume the Convergance IC's STK392-110 need to be replaced. Mr Bob, just to make sure, the Convergence board is the far left board as you look to the back of the set. It is not the board that all the inputs go into, rather the one just to the left. Is there a Led light on this board that would indicate a problem? Do you agree this might be the problem.

I'm fairly confident that I can desoder and resolder the new StK392-110. But I have little experience with the heat sink grease. Mr. Bob, is that something a DIY should attempt to tackle. I mean, what is the effect of too much or too little grease? ie. massive fire or just another blown fuse.

I'd also like to replace all fuses. The other two fuses are 6.3a/125v. Is this the exact fuse I need? I've found 6v and I've found 6.3a/250v. I noted that electronix.com does not list the voltage of the fuses nor has a 6.3a.

The size of the fuse determines its voltage. 250v is just as good as 125v, if not better. The amperage is the main thing, and I believe all glass fuses of the size required - the F type GMA's - will work just fine. Keep the fuse a GMA type exact size replacement, and get exactly the right amperage. 6A will work instead of 6.3A, but may blow when it shouldn't, hence the extra 0.3 mA in the 6.3A version. I don't know of ANY 6v fuse.

The conv bd is the vertically mounted one on the left, as you're looking in from the back. It's NOT any of the boards that lay flat, like the terminal board and the deflection bds do. It's vertically mounted, to the back of the inside section, and its top faces you, just like the PS bd on the right.

It is a double tier board, meaning that some disassembly is required before even starting the IC replacement op, and reassembly after that. Use a generous amount of heat sink, let it mush out just a bit at the sides, and you'll have enough. Be sure to remove all dried up old gook.

The 392-180 is the best replacement for the 392-110, tho the 392-150 is better also, tho not as recent an upgrade as the 180.

Send it to me and I'll do it right for you.

Mr Bob

ucBearcat

07-30-07, 03:41 PM

Thanks Mr. Bob. Let me take the board out and take a good look at those IC positions. If I'm not comfortable, I'll send it to you. How much would you charge to do this replacement, IC parts included?

Mr Bob

07-30-07, 05:16 PM

Thanks Mr. Bob. Let me take the board out and take a good look at those IC positions. If I'm not comfortable, I'll send it to you. How much would you charge to do this replacement, IC parts included?

$325 plus you pay the shipping both ways. This includes both ICs, of the updated version, the 180's.

It would be less with no parts involved, like often happens on a Mit, but that doesn't happen on these Pio units.

Mr Bob

3Dengineer

08-17-07, 04:41 PM

Mr Bob

08-19-07, 04:30 PM

Add me to the list of Pioneer Elite owners who ran into this issue. I was able to remove the power supply board. Then using a magnifying glass, I could see 2 cold solders on the E3 connector were bad. They showed a broken circle around the posts. It was the first and last connectors (12v and the top GND)

After resoldering these, it seems to have fixed the issue - costing me $34 at Radio shack. I can't be 100% sure it is fixed, but have run for ~24 hours and no power-offs.

In the Pioneer support area, I do have a different story to tell. I called support and got nowhere on the phone. The person could have cared less about the fact that my tv had a factory defect. When I explained that they were losing customers over this issue, I was met with a virtual yawn. So I emailed them and politely referenced this forum. I explained that there was a growing community of high end users who felt that they were left to fend for themselves when there were clear factory defects in the power supply boards.

I recieved 2 calls the next day and even though my 710HD is no longer under warranty. One caller said they would see what they could do. A second caller, who was much higher up in the Pioneer support group assured me that they would fix any lingering issues - period. From what I have read, this is 180 degrees from what many users here have experienced so I wanted to be fair to Pioneer and at least document my case. From my perspective, they stepped up so far and have said the right things. Even though I believe I have fixed the issue, they did give me some level of comfort if it fails again - as I did not solder the whole board.

Many thanks to the mr bob and others who have contributed on this thread.

Remember, that fixes it for now, but if you touch your iron to some of the smaller points without adding the solder yet - and sometimes even the bigger ones - you will find that they immediately separate into a crevasse between the leg and the edge of the pad. You can see air thru it. Such conn's are just accidents waiting to happen, before and after touching your iron to them, and many of these boards are rife with them.

There's no way to be able to trust your board to the same level as you trust the rest of the boards in there - to last indefiinitely - without a thorough resoldering of the entire board, redoing everything but the heat sinks and test points, which dont connect to anything.

I just talked with a potential repair customer, someone who is also a consumer advocate. She has a 10 year old Sony with problems, and the way she handled it was to find out the names of the higher ups at Sony and write them a letter. When higher ups get a letter, they fear that the next letter will go to the press.

This totally bypasses the custumer relations dept's.

She wrote to the CEO.

They sent her 3 new guns for her set, for free.

Mr Bob

ctvince2

08-19-07, 04:54 PM

Mr Bob

08-19-07, 05:18 PM

Hi there,

I'm hoping someone can help me (Mr. Bob!) I have gained a lot of help from this forum in keeping my 510 running (blue flash problem a year ago and blue gun problem about 7 months ago). Now it appears another issue has surfaced. I think it pertains to my convergence board even though from scanning the pages here it looks like it could also still be my power supply board.

What is happening is that my blue convergence is shot. Starting on friday my blue has gone into severe pincushioning so that what is in the center is good while going to the edges it is severely warped and cannot be adjusted. I took apart my high voltage cable that was at issue before that ran to the gun and had some corrosion where the lead rotted away (maybe you remember this) After examining it everything looks OK so I'm guessing its one of the boards. I did my best at resoldering the power supply board a year ago when I developed the flash issue and that remedied that problem. I can't say I did a beautiful job however as this was my first attempt at doing something like this. I've taken out both the convergence boards and the power supply board. I don't notice anything obvious around the connector for the blue (G3) but I don't have a magnifying glass presently so I can't be certain. I did take a look at my work on the power supply board though and I'm starting to wonder if I might have screwed some things up.

I have a couple areas that appear to be bridged and I'm not entirely certain I did them. I'm hoping someone might have come across similar issues on the back of their board. Specifically on the E1 connector. there are two bridges I see there. One is the innermost middle two pins have an obvious bridge of a good puddle of solder. The next is the outermost 2 pins next to E4 look like there might be a bridge there. There's also a bridge more towards the middle of the board that I'm almost certain I didn't do which I also question. I'll take some pictures if necessary, but does anyone who has soldered that board remember any obvious bridges on the E1 connector pin?

My next question is of course do you think I'm headed in the right direction? I'm kind of surprised that if these bridges weren't supposed to be there that they haven't caused any problems all this time.

I want to get this TV back up and running as I don't want to fork out $2.5K to get an equivalent sized LCD flat panel if I can help it. I'm using my old 25" Daewoo from my college days and its not going to satisfy me for long.

There is a regulator on the PS board that gets cold soldered, and takes out the convergence totally, as it deprives the conv ciruitry of its +/- voltages. But since only your blue is bad, that regulator is not in question, as all colors would be affected if it was.

On the connectors, at several places there are groupings where solder bridges are no problem. Look at the markings of what each pin does, and you'll see that at times there are 3 grounds together, and sometimes 9v or 5v pairs together.

Best way to see if you have an inappropriate solder bridge is to shine a strong flashlight from under the relatively transparent board and see where the run is supposed to be, with that run showing itself against the light. Or shine the light very carefully onto the side of the board facing you and see where the edge of the run stops, against the epoxy of the board itself.

That silkscreening they do on the bottoms of boards is always getting in the way of seeing where runs are supposed to be. I wish the layout designers and the repair techs would have a cup of coffee together and figure out which silkscreen designs REALLY need to be there, and which do not!

Mr Bob