WHAT IS "BURN-IN"

Typically, "burn-in" is defined as an uneven wear of a phosphor based display unit (Plasma and CRT for example). It is the phenomena of being able to "see" the remnants of something that was being "displayed" even though you are watching totally different content. It is not image retention, which goes away.

HOW DOES IT OCCUR

It occurs due to content being viewed not in the aspect ratio of the display unit thereby aging phosphors in the display differently. For example, 4:3 content is being viewed as 4:3 content on a 16:9 display device with the side bars as "black". Viewing in this way for extended periods of time (not defined) will cause the phosphors in the middle of the unit to age faster than the phosphors in the black side bar. When phosphors age they decrease in brightness.

WHAT PERCENTAGE OF RPCRT OWNERS EXPERIENCE "BURN-IN"

Although there is no, as yet, survey of all CRT owners, many owners of such devices have not experienced it. Rough guess, less than 1%. The few that have would, IMHO, be guilty of "abusing" the display.

IS THERE ANYTHING THAT CAN BE DONE TO CIRCUMVENT "BURN-IN"

Absolutely, the list is as follows:

1) Get your display "calibrated". Now if that entails a professional ISF calibration (~$400) or a calibration via Avia or DVE (~$40). That's your call. Alot of "damage" can be curtailed by dialing down the brightness and contrast from the get go.
2) Put some sort of "color" on the side bars when watching 4:3 content in its native aspect ratio. If you absolutely hate stretching 4:3 content, that is filling the 16:9 aspect ratio of the unit, then make sure that the side bars are set to either "gray" or some other color than "black".
3) Did I mention to dial down the contrast and brightness?
4) Vary your viewing habits. In this day and age of 16:9 DVD's, HD content and SD content this should not be difficult to be achieved.
5) Dial down the contrast and brightness, are you getting this part yet?
6) CRTs are susceptible to "burn-in" when in their infancy as the phosphors have not had a chance to age. A few hundred hours of watching varied material to age the phosphors is not unrealistic and will probably due a lot to curtail possible damage.
7) TURN DOWN THE CONTRAST AND BRIGHTNESS OF THE DISPLAY. Sorry, but I firmly believe that this is crucial to preventing burn-in damage.
8) When you are done playing a video game or watching a movie with the “black bars” on the top and bottom, watch a program that fills the screen for the same amount of time you spent playing the video game or watching the movie. This will in a way help to “wash” away the previous static image.

OKAY, I'M A (put your own explicative here), I HAVE "BURN-IN" IS THEIR ANYTHING THAT CAN BE DONE

Are you sure it is "burn-in"? It may be "image retention", which is different. Image retention is the phenomena of being able to "see" what was just on the screen prior to turning off the unit. Image retention goes away and has no effect on the display. It may, however, be a sign that your contrast and brightness are too high. Burn-in stays on the screen forever, never disappears and really bad burn in can make text unintelligible.

Back to the question, is there anything that can be done to fix burn in? Yes, there is. As stated before "burn-in" is the uneven wear, or aging, of phosphors. You can reduce it by reversing the image of the screen. For example, let's say that you have the middle of the screen burned in because you used black bars when watching 4:3 content. Just put up grey bars or white bars for the side and don't display anything in the middle. How? Just unplug your STB from the unit when in 4:3 mode. The time it takes to "erase" the burn-in will be in direct proportion to the amount of time that was spent watching 4:3 content with the black bars

I WANT TO LEARN MORE ABOUT BURN-IN

There is alot of information concerning this topic. A "Google" or "Yahoo" search will yield more results

AVS Forum Burn-in FAQ (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=224419)

Keohi HDTV - Learn About Burn-in (http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/learnabout/definitions/burnin.html)

HDTVArcade.com - FAQ on Burn-in (http://www.hdtvarcade.com/faq.htm)

IS A RPCRT THE RIGHT CHOICE FOR ME

Unfortunately, no one can tell you definitively whether a rpcrt, or any viewing device for that matter, will be the best choice for you. There are too many considerations to take into account. CRT displays offer one of the best pictures that can be found today. Only you are aware of what you would use the display for. Only you know what your budget is. Only you can make that choice. I would say that if you plan on using your display as a computer display or you plan on playing video games for 90% of your viewing time, then a crt might not be for you. But only you can make that decision.

CONCLUSION

CRT displays can offer the viewer a very clean, detailed, color accurate and film-like picture. A "looking through the window" type of experience. As with any investment of a significant nature, rpcrts can also be a very expensive and care must be taken as not to “abuse” your television.

MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCES

Before coming to this forum in Nov of 2002 I decided that an rpcrt was right for me based on price and performance. I ended up with a Panasonic 47" 1920x1080 unit. I must say that this unit is becoming very popular on this forum. One of the reasons is because this display has one of the finest pictures that I have seen from rear projection televisions. The flexibility that Panasonic includes in their rpcrts for “tweaking” makes this television capable of displaying dvds, hd movies, shows and sports that have a 3 dimensional, film-like quality to them. When I have people over who are not as into home theater as I am, I get general comments that while watching a dvd and especially hd, it looks as if you are right there. My father made the comment as we were watching What Lies Beneath (bwt, this one of the best looking hd movies I have seen) ota on ABC that it looks like you are looking through glass. I have enjoyed this unit now for close to a year and a half and I am happy to report no sign of "burn-in" and no sign of the display starting to dim. I played Grand Theft Auto: Vice City on the display on Friday night (5-7-04) as I have been doing ever so often with SSX 3 on my PS2 and some NFL football, NBA basketball and Halo on my X-Box. I do everything in moderation. A little video game here, some dvd movies there and some hd and standard def television here. I provide my television with a steady mixture of images. It is just like your daily eating routine; you make sure that you have a steady diet of foods that are represented throughout the food pyramid that we learned about in elementary school. Don’t feed yourself too much of one food or too little of another. A balanced diet, whether it is food or home theater, is the key to ensuring you and your television has a long and healthy existence.

I want to thank rmcgirr83, better known as the Other Rich, for helping with this and for allowing me to base this post with modification on his original post that is over in the Plasma Forum Master Burn-in thread. I also would like to thank Barrybud for allowing this thread. I hope that this thread can be of helpful to the many who come this forum and have questions about burn-in.

I've been reading these burn-in threads for a few years, watching the reports of burn-in incidents drop over time. However I continue to read of the occasional problem.

My question is as follows:

Given that one has a calibrated CRT run at recommended contrast and brightness, then what are the chances of experiencing burn if 75% of one's viewing is of 4:3 material in its native aspect ration with grey bars? Let's say the set is on 4 hours a day.

I've heard varying responses on this. The majority opinion has been than the grey bars would greatly slow the process of burn-in but it would not prevent it over time.

^ I would like to know this as well plus what others think about playing video games for an average of 2 hrs / day on CRT RPTVs?

Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil
I've been reading these burn-in threads for a few years, watching the reports of burn-in incidents drop over time. However I continue to read of the occasional problem.

My question is as follows:

Given that one has a calibrated CRT run at recommended contrast and brightness, then what are the chances of experiencing burn if 75% of one's viewing is of 4:3 material in its native aspect ration with grey bars? Let's say the set is on 4 hours a day.

I've heard varying responses on this. The majority opinion has been than the grey bars would greatly slow the process of burn-in but it would not prevent it over time.

Well, some people feel that they gray bars slow down the burn-in process. In all truth, I cannot give you a specific time before you would see the effects of burn-in. Your usage will vary greatly from someone else. If you do watch with the gray bars 75% of time, then you should also mix in "stretched" content to help the phosphur wear evenly.

Originally posted by rolltide1017
^ I would like to know this as well plus what others think about playing video games for an average of 2 hrs / day on CRT RPTVs?

As was said in the burn-in post, if you play for 2 hours, mix in regular tv content for about the same amount of time you played the video games. This allows the phospur to wear evenly and that is the most important part. Read the faq above and go from there. You shouldn't have to worry about a problem if you do the necessary adjustments.

Antonio,

Great post and I think it will help many members!

antonio - what is the model number of your panny display?

thanks

jim

Hi. I guess I'm not sure if I have a burn in or image retention,but here is what I have. I have replay tv, and on my screen, I can constantly see the small r with the circle around it, and the words "Panasonic" (I have a panasonic showstopper model of replay) in the upper right corner. Basically, its the screen you see when you stop watching a recorded program. Granted, I can only see these images when the picture is white or light, but now that I know its there, I am constantly looking for it.

Anything I can do? the TV is still under warrenty, its less than a year old. Its a Toshiba cinema series, the 82model.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Originally posted by jim tressler
antonio - what is the model number of your panny display?

thanks

jim

pt47wx42

Originally posted by StevieJ
Hi. I guess I'm not sure if I have a burn in or image retention,but here is what I have. I have replay tv, and on my screen, I can constantly see the small r with the circle around it, and the words "Panasonic" (I have a panasonic showstopper model of replay) in the upper right corner. Basically, its the screen you see when you stop watching a recorded program. Granted, I can only see these images when the picture is white or light, but now that I know its there, I am constantly looking for it.

Anything I can do? the TV is still under warrenty, its less than a year old. Its a Toshiba cinema series, the 82model.

It most likely is burn-in. Check with Toshiba to see if this is covered under their warranty. Most companies do not cover this issue.

What I would suggest you do is get the contrast and brightness set properly. I have a Directv hd rec connected to my set and everytime I change the channel the channel banner appears. When I want to see what is on another station I use the small guide that appears at the bottom of the screen. My point is that there is no sign of burn-in and those things that I mentioned are only on the screen for no longer than 30 to 45 seconds. Just take precautions with how long those banners are displayed on your screen.

Also, you could use the all white screen on Video Essentials to try to reverse the burn-in that has occured. Others on this forum and the Plasma forum have tried this method, but how long you have tp do this process varies.

Originally posted by AFH
Well, some people feel that they gray bars slow down the burn-in process. In all truth, I cannot give you a specific time before you would see the effects of burn-in. Your usage will vary greatly from someone else. If you do watch with the gray bars 75% of time, then you should also mix in "stretched" content to help the phosphur wear evenly.

Well, I wasn't looking for a specific time, but was hoping to get a more definitive answer than this. More like ...

A) Even with gray bars, you can expect to start seeing burn-in within 6 months or 12 months.

B) With the carefully adjusted gray bars of today's sets, and given you are running at lower contrast & brightness, then you really should be able to get 3 or more years out before seeing any effects. And perhaps you would never experience burn-in as the gray bars at the right settings completely compensate.

I mean are these gray bars effective or not? Are they only a little bit effective so that they might prevent burn-in with 20% 4:3 usage? 30%? 50%?

I know a lot of people are so fearful of burn-in that they watch all 4:3 in stretch mode. I hate the idea of dropping $2000 on a set only to watch 75% of the content being distorted by the TV. That doesn't make any sense.

Some people will then recommend going to LCD or DLP. But is that necessary? Do the anti-burn-in methods employed by the latest CRTs work or not? This being the Master Burn-In thread, I thought this would be the place to come to get this answer.

Anyone have reliable information on this?

Why not just watch the analog and digital channels in widescreen and stretch the screen a little... I saw it like that on my friend's 42" Toshiba and it wasnt that bad... after 15 minutes I got used to it.

What I am afriad of when I buy my RP CRT is if I am watching a lot of DVDs that happen to have the Black Bars on the top and bottom of the screen. I don't want to lose the quality of the DVD picture by "zooming" in or stretching the picture so that I won't see ANY black bars, but I also don't want those black bars on the top and bottom of the screen to burn in. Obviously, it would only be for 2 hours or so (the length of the movie), and afterwards it would probably be a good idea to watch something that will take up the entire screen with movement - but again, I am afriad that after watching 100's of movies like this for months and eventually years, it will cause a Burn-In at the top and bottom of my HDTV :(

Is this so???

Thanks.

Dallas22

Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil
Well, I wasn't looking for a specific time, but was hoping to get a more definitive answer than this. More like ...

A) Even with gray bars, you can expect to start seeing burn-in within 6 months or 12 months.

B) With the carefully adjusted gray bars of today's sets, and given you are running at lower contrast & brightness, then you really should be able to get 3 or more years out before seeing any effects. And perhaps you would never experience burn-in as the gray bars at the right settings completely compensate.

I mean are these gray bars effective or not? Are they only a little bit effective so that they might prevent burn-in with 20% 4:3 usage? 30%? 50%?

I know a lot of people are so fearful of burn-in that they watch all 4:3 in stretch mode. I hate the idea of dropping $2000 on a set only to watch 75% of the content being distorted by the TV. That doesn't make any sense.

Some people will then recommend going to LCD or DLP. But is that necessary? Do the anti-burn-in methods employed by the latest CRTs work or not? This being the Master Burn-In thread, I thought this would be the place to come to get this answer.

Anyone have reliable information on this?

1) NO one can tell you when you will see burn-in, if you see it at all. It all depends on YOUR usage. There is no specific time frame.

2) If you hate the idea of stretching 4:3 then that is your choice. If it doesn't make sense to you then it doesn't make sense. No one is going to force you to buy a RPCRT or stretch 4:3 material. Once again IT IS YOUR CHOICE. You have to pay the money for a new television, be it CRT, DLP and LCD.

You have already made your choice, now it is time for you to understand why you made it. Alot of people maybe afraid of burn-in, but that is why you read DIFFERENCE sources, this being one, to get an understanding of the problem and ways to minimize the risk. It's all in the first thread. Read it.

3) CRTs do not employ anti burn-in methods. Some plasma displays do but not CRT.

You are right, this is the Master Burn-in thread and you can read the first post and the links contained within. No one is going to tell you what to get as I have a feeling you already know what you want. Read and make your own decision.

Originally posted by Dallas22
Why not just watch the analog and digital channels in widescreen and stretch the screen a little... I saw it like that on my friend's 42" Toshiba and it wasnt that bad... after 15 minutes I got used to it.

What I am afriad of when I buy my RP CRT is if I am watching a lot of DVDs that happen to have the Black Bars on the top and bottom of the screen. I don't want to lose the quality of the DVD picture by "zooming" in or stretching the picture so that I won't see ANY black bars, but I also don't want those black bars on the top and bottom of the screen to burn in. Obviously, it would only be for 2 hours or so (the length of the movie), and afterwards it would probably be a good idea to watch something that will take up the entire screen with movement - but again, I am afriad that after watching 100's of movies like this for months and eventually years, it will cause a Burn-In at the top and bottom of my HDTV :(

Is this so???

Thanks.

Dallas, all you need to do is read the first post. What more can I say that isn't in the first post. Varied material and proper adjustment of contrast and brightness goes a long way.

Dallas22

Tom_B,
My 51" Sony developed very mild burn-in after about 12 months of viewing (90%) with the gray bars. Its only noticeable on very light backgrounds.
Most people can't see it...but its there.

Since noticing the burn-in, I only watch in Wide zoom stretch mode.

Originally posted by AFH
1) NO one can tell you when you will see burn-in, if you see it at all. It all depends on YOUR usage. There is no specific time frame.

2) If you hate the idea of stretching 4:3 then that is your choice. If it doesn't make sense to you then it doesn't make sense. No one is going to force you to buy a RPCRT or stretch 4:3 material. Once again IT IS YOUR CHOICE. You have to pay the money for a new television, be it CRT, DLP and LCD.

You have already made your choice, now it is time for you to understand why you made it. Alot of people maybe afraid of burn-in, but that is why you read DIFFERENCE sources, this being one, to get an understanding of the problem and ways to minimize the risk. It's all in the first thread. Read it.

3) CRTs do not employ anti burn-in methods. Some plasma displays do but not CRT.

You are right, this is the Master Burn-in thread and you can read the first post and the links contained within. No one is going to tell you what to get as I have a feeling you already know what you want. Read and make your own decision.

Okay, I'm not trying to be contrary, but I tend to be a very precise person.

1) Burn-in is there or it isn't. This is not a matter of when I see it. I'm sure there is data possessed by each manufacturer about when burn-in will occur in their sets under specific conditions. I'm sure they have data about how long it takes their sets to start showing evidence of burn-in when gray bars are used at specific brightness and contrast levels.

2) I know watching in stretch mode minimizes the risk of burn-in, that is a given. I'm getting the picture that this thread is really about providing everyday advice about how to minimize the risk of burn-in rather than addressing issues like how prevalent the problem is, what is the risk under different conditions, how has the industry progressed on this front over the past 3-4 years, etc..

3) Grey side bars are an anti-burn-in method. They exist to reduce burn-in. They have also tweaked things in the CRT's themselves, the screens, lenses, and who knows what else over the years. Older CRT systems experienced much more rapid burn-in than the current models. So the fact is that several anti-burn-in methods/technologies have been employed and I am interested in knowing how effective they are.

You are correct in stating that I know what I want ... and that is relevant current information on this issue.

Originally posted by Dallas22
Why not just watch the analog and digital channels in widescreen and stretch the screen a little... I saw it like that on my friend's 42" Toshiba and it wasnt that bad... after 15 minutes I got used to it.


I'm afraid my visual senses are not blessed with this degree of forgiveness for visual distortion. I'm a very visually precise person. I have written professional reviews of optical equipment, such as binoculars, telescopes, and various lenses.

Frankly, I don't know how so many people who are so demanding of high precision video that they go out and drop $1500-$5000+ on HDTV sets, can watch stretched 4:3 material and be satisfied with it. I find stretched video to be grossly distorted and cannot watch it.

Several current stretch algorithms vary the aspect ratio across the screen, so that the center of the screen approaches the correct 4:3, and then it gradually changes as you approach the sides, going up to around 2:1 near the edges, so that the image fully fills a 16:9 display. I guess people who tend to focus on the center of the screen will not pay much heed to how images are altered as objects pass across the screen. This drives me crazy. I'd be sitting there the whole time as I watched it thinking, "I paid $2000 to watch this distorted crap?" Meanwhile my wife would be beside me not noticing any problems at all (her eyes lock into the center and she never notices edge distortion).

Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil


Frankly, I don't know how so many people who are so demanding of high precision video that they go out and drop $1500-$5000+ on HDTV sets, can watch stretched 4:3 material and be satisfied with it. I find stretched video to be grossly distorted and cannot watch it.


What I think is that most people here just don't care much about most 4:3 material - myself included to be perfectly honest. DVD's and HDTVs are the high quality visuals we are very picky about - while standard cable looks pretty much like crap no matter what you do, so I guess in many peoples minds a little more distortion to go along with the noise and low resolution isn't that big a deal. Perhaps many do use grey bars, though, who knows.

No tv is honestly going to look great with SDTV and great with HDTV - at least not that I'm aware of and if I have to give up SDTV quality to gain HDTV/DVD quality I'm certainly willing to do so. Surely even you can understand giving up a little picture quality on the lastest episode of "who wants to marry my dad" in order to gain quality on Return of the King ;)

Ring a Dong dillo..

Tom

Ok, I can deal with a crap in, crap out philosophy.

My trouble is that well over 50% of my viewing is of this stuff, like the 30 some channels of HBO, Showtime, Starz, etc. that I get from the Dish Network. I must watch at least 10-15X of that vs DVDs.

And now some of the channels proporting to be HD are nothing more than pre-stretched, upconverted SD, as the new TNT-HD channel.

It will be nice when there is a reasonable amount of true HD material to watch.

Originally posted by ptlurking
Tom_B,
My 51" Sony developed very mild burn-in after about 12 months of viewing (90%) with the gray bars. Its only noticeable on very light backgrounds.
Most people can't see it...but its there.


YIKES!!!

That's terrible. I was hoping new sets were much better than this. As in, if one put up with gray bars then you would get at least 3 years before seeing any burn-in. I wouldn't even consider three years to be stellar performance.

Darn ... I had a good price negotiated on a new Hitachi 51s500.

Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil
YIKES!!!

That's terrible. I was hoping new sets were much better than this. As in, if one put up with gray bars then you would get at least 3 years before seeing any burn-in. I wouldn't even consider three years to be stellar performance.

Darn ... I had a good price negotiated on a new Hitachi 51s500.

I wouldn't let one persons bad experience ruin you for a good deal on a very good TV. It might be a case of bad luck or it might be a case of contrast not being set low enough, or perhaps something else entirely - there are many factors involved.

I definately wouldn't let that ruin you on a CRT. I'd be quite willing to bet that for every person that experienced burn in after 1 year, there are 20 who don't experience any burn in after 7 or 8 years ( of those who have their tv's calibrated right - no one on AVS would be dumb enough to leave the contrast set super high I'd imagine ).

Tom

How common is it to have burn-in from watching too many 2.35:1 movies? I have my contrast and brightness pretty low but am still worried about it. I watch about half dvd's and half television. I always use the stretch modes for television but it seems like 90% of my dvds are 2.35:1. Should I be worried?

Originally posted by david118383
How common is it to have burn-in from watching too many 2.35:1 movies? I have my contrast and brightness pretty low but am still worried about it. I watch about half dvd's and half television. I always use the stretch modes for television but it seems like 90% of my dvds are 2.35:1. Should I be worried? The only case of 2.35:1 burn in I have heard of was at a specialty hometheater shop that was using a 2:35:1 DVD in a contiinuous loop as a demo. If your contrast is set properly and you use the 4:3 stretch mode, it is not a worry.

Actually this issue does freeze me on buying an HD set. I really like the newest Hitachi's and Mits. Love the picture quality. But as I can't stand to watch 4:3 stretch modes & a good 60%-75% of my viewing is of 4:3, I don't have confidence that I could make it more than 6-12 months before visible burn-in appears. When I first heard of the use of gray bars, I thought they might do the trick. But no one ever guarantees that they do.

I just watched a bit of 4:3 stretch again this weekend. It was closeup of a couple kissing. The center of the screen looked pretty good - using the newest stretch modes where the center stays very close to 4:3. But as the edges are aggressively stretched, this had the effect of elongating both of their heads so that they no longer looked human. My wife, being a person who focuses their attention on the center/action, didn't even notice it. To me, the weird distorted image just jumped off of the screen at me.

I'm looking over my room to see if there is anyway of keeping my present tube 4:3 set to use for SD and using the RPTV only for HD and DVDs. But I don't think I can make both fit in a way that they would both be usable. Otherwise it's waiting for the next generation of DLP/LCD/D-ILA sets.

As to 2.35:1 burn in, it is everybit as susceptible to burning-in as 4:3. It's just that most people won't watch that much 2.35:1 to burn it. If 75% of one's use is 4:3 or 2.35:1, they have the same issue to deal with.

Tom,
There are some technologies which will not have burn in:
i.e.
DLP
Digital LCOS (eLCOS/Intel/new JVC RPTVs)

There are many potential causes for image burn in, but in projection this can be mainly attributed to the accuracy of the voltage applied to the display.

Roland

on 4x3 material I use the zoom on my hitachi not the stretch. i agree that the stretch is crap. the only draw back is that you lose some picture at the very edges of the original signal, but the picture stays in the right proportion.

Originally posted by rolypoly
Tom,
There are some technologies which will not have burn in:
i.e.
DLP
Digital LCOS (eLCOS/Intel/new JVC RPTVs)
. . .

Roland

I didn't realize until after I had bought my DLP, a 50" RCA, that DLPs are not subject to the dreaded burn in problem. I bought my DLP only because I saw it standing next to an LCD HDTV on the dealer's floor and thought that its PQ was significantly better than the LCD's.

The DLP's immunity from burn in has proved to be a boon to me. The horizontal distortion caused by stretching and the apparent loss of resolution caused by zooming bother me so I am grateful that I can watch 4:3 material in native format and not have to worry about burn in.

One reason I would go for DLP is also the immunity to burn-in. I know I would take care of a CRT set because I paid for it. But I am currently living with a roommate that may not do the same. I am not saying that he won't take care of it,but, i'd hate to come home and see him playing a sportsgame with the contrast up and having all the stats permanently on my screen :-/

As of now, it doesn't matter, cuz i don't have enough money for even the cheapest CRT ;)

Originally posted by rolypoly
Tom,
There are some technologies which will not have burn in:
i.e.
DLP
Digital LCOS (eLCOS/Intel/new JVC RPTVs)


Yes, I am aware of this.

But none of them can delivery a picture equivalent to say a Hitachi 51s500 for $1600.

I love the image that a well-adjusted CRT-based RPTV can throw up. The price is acceptable to me. I don't care much about whether the set weighs 80 or 240 pounds, or if it is flat enough to hang on a wall.

So the only thing stopping me from buying is the 4:3 issue. Well, and my budget as I can address the 4:3 issue by throwing a lot more money at the solution. But even there, it is my opinion that sets like the Hitachi and Mits produce a better picture than what I've seen from Samsung DLPs. So in that scenario, I would spend twice as much to get a set that doesn't burn in on 4:3 material, but produces an inferior picture on all widescreen material. Another tough choice to make.

This is why I was hoping that the anti-burn-in technologies employed by current CRT-based sets had become more effective. I could easily learn to live with gray vertical bars if they allowed me to watch native aspect 4:3 material without the fear of burn-in.

Hi Tom,

I notice this 4:3 issue alot - what is it? If it is discussed at the top of this thread, I must have missed it. Could you point me in the right direction to find out what this 4:3 issue is with CRT?

thanks alot!

In a nutshell the 4:3 issue is:

Most TV programming is broadcast with an aspect ratio of 4:3. That is the aspect ratio of a standard tube TV.

HDTV programming is broadcast with an aspect ratio of 16:9. And thus this is the standard to which "widescreen" HDTV sets are made.

Movies can be in 4:3, 16:9, 1.85:1, 2:35:1 or other formats. Most tend to be 1.85:1 or 2.35:1.

So on a standard 4:3 TV, all widescreen material will be displayed with black bars on the top and bottom. The wider the source aspect ratio, the smaller the video image is and the wider the black bars.

On a 16:9 HDTV set, 4:3 source material will not fill up the screen horizontally. So it will have vertical black bars on each side of the image. Note this set will also have horizontal black bars when viewing 2.35:1 material, however those bars will be smaller than when watching on a 4:3 set. Technically a 16:9 CRT could be burned by too much viewing of 2.35:1 material, but most people won't be watching this 75% of the time.

The problem is that some technologies are susceptible to "burn-in" when they are heavily used to watch material that has "black bars" on the screen. Actually the image area is burning in and the black area is unused, which can eventually result in the black areas being a bit brighter when you do use them. For example, if you have a 16:9 HDTV and watch a lot of standard TV 4:3 programming. Eventually when you watch HD programming that fills the screen, the sides of the screen, where the black bars existed while you watched 4:3, will now be a bit brighter than the center of the image.

Owners of HDTV sets that are susceptible to burn-in, such as CRT-based and plasma sets, are motivated to prevent this burn-in from happening. In order to try to burn down the "black bar area" evenly with the center image, manufacturers started to project gray bars instead of black. So those areas of the screen were not completely inactive. The effectiveness of this is what I've been discussing in this thread.

The other alternative is to stretch the 4:3 image so that it completely fills the screen. Early on manufacturers stretched the image evenly across the screen. In recent years they have employed different algorithms, usually leaving the center close to 4:3, so that the center of the action is the natural aspect ratio, but this forces the sides to be more aggressively stretched. A stretched image has no black/gray areas and so this burn-in concern is completely addressed. (Other burn-in issues exist, such as station logos, game/computer fixed images, and overly bright settings.)

I find these stretched images objectionable because they do significantly distort the original image. On a 57" display the image is stretched about a foot to fit the 16:9 screen. However many (most?) HDTV set owners seem to accept this.

There is a third alternative - don't watch much 4:3 programming. If your use of the set for 4:3 is down in the 10%-20% range, then it is unlikely you would see any burn-in.

Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil

My question is as follows:

Given that one has a calibrated CRT run at recommended contrast and brightness, then what are the chances of experiencing burn if 75% of one's viewing is of 4:3 material in its native aspect ration with grey bars? Let's say the set is on 4 hours a day.



There is a 100% chance of this. How long before it becomes noticeable is a different matter.
Burn in is uneven phospor wear which will occour if a static image is left on the screen 75% of the time no matter what color it is.

But I never said anything about a static image.

If one is viewing constantly changing 4:3 images with varying intensity and changing gray bars on the side, then there is no static image. The idea behind having variable gray bars was to provide a balanced burn as compared to the average burn on any area of the project image within the 4:3 area.

Thus the gist of my questions above was 'how well did this work?' It certainly should work much better than using black bars. So far the response has been that it doesn't help all that much.

first post here. I have a Mistsubishi 55311 for a year or sow now and my son likes to watch Disney Channel, I would say an hour a day but is not everyday. Well I have the beautifull Mickey Mouse ears logo 24 x 7 now. what can I do?

Thanks

I have a 42WE610 (Sony GWIII RP-LCD).
When displaying a block pattern that has white squares, on the left side of the screen, there is slight ghosting of purple and green on the left and right side of the white boxes. This ghosting is only maybe 1/4 of a pixel wide, but is definitely there.

On the right side of the screen, there is a slight ghosting in the same manner, however it is blue and yellow, again, very slight against the white boxes on the left and right sides of the boxes and only about 1/4 of a pixel wide, and viewable only at a very close range (6" or so).

I'm using a DVI connection from my Nvidia fx5900xt. Is this type of colored ghosting normal, or am I having convergence issues that warrants a service call from a tech for my 42we610?

Again, there is no ghost on the white boxes within a 8" or so radius of the centre of the screen, but the ghosting becomes more pronounced as you travel further from the centre.

I've been told this is normal, as it is called convergence drift or something, but want to get some more assurances.

Thanks.

The electronics of the set can only display whole pixels, so if you are seeing something 1/4 pixel wide, it seems it would have to be a convergence issue. As to whether or not it warrants a service call... Is it at all noticible during normal viewing, or only when your run this very specific test? I think you might have trouble convincing a tech it's a problem being a quarter pixel off on the sides of the screen from 6" away while displaying a test pattern. <g>

Istvan,

I was waiting to see if others who have more experience in dealing with burn-in would respond, seeing none, I'll jump in.

Your logo burn-in is a nasty, and unfortunately all too common, problem. It is surprising that you would have it given that the channel isn't used all that much. Ther reports about burn-in from the MSNBC and Headline News logos and tickers were abundant back after 911 due to the hundreds of hours people left those channels on, even when working around the house, to keep up with the news.

One thing that sometimes lessens or eliminates the problem is to perform a full-screen white-burn. That is, find a way to display a full screen white image (say from a test DVD) for several hours. Or if you have a VCR or DBS receiver that can generate a blue screen with no lettering or symbols on it, then use that and turn up the brightness and contrast to make it pretty bright.

Some who have sophisticated PCs or good image editing tools, can create reverse-burn images, where they capture say a black screen shot that has the logo present, and then create a negative/reverse image of that shot, where then only the logo is black, and then run that screen for a while to even out the picture.

Others may offer more ideas.

Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil
But I never said anything about a static image.

If one is viewing constantly changing 4:3 images with varying intensity and changing gray bars on the side, then there is no static image. The idea behind having variable gray bars was to provide a balanced burn as compared to the average burn on any area of the project image within the 4:3 area.

Thus the gist of my questions above was 'how well did this work?' It certainly should work much better than using black bars. So far the response has been that it doesn't help all that much.

The grey bars are static in that they are present and unchanging for a significant portion of the time. Grey is quite a bit better than black bars. That said, if it's always on there and the rest of your 4:3 image doesn't average out to the wear caused by grey - someday you will notice a difference. It could take 15-20 years depending on the disparity(well beyond the life of the set - and the disparity is the key reason why black is bad and grey is much more neutral as all television images have some degree of light whereas black has none). With brightness and contrast maxed while watching only 4:3 dark scenes it could take a lot less time than that. There's really no quantitative measure. The risk is lessened but not totally removed and a lot of it depends upon your viewing and how you setup your display.

If implemented correctly the gray bars are not unchanging. Sets can be programmed to change brightness based upon how bright the scenes are in the 4:3 area. And the grays can have varying black and white "patterns" within them ... sort of like a very fine pitch "snow" pattern.

The data I've seen is that even when displaying gray bars, those areas of the screen are still burning in less than the 4:3 area. Thus the burn-in becomes visible when the gray bar areas begin to be visibly brighter (i.e. have less burn in than the rest of the screen) on full-screen images. I've yet to see a single report in any forum where the gray bar area was dimmer (more burned-in) than the 4:3 area. It's theoretically possible, as you describe above.

What I've been trying to find out is if a set is properly set up with AVIA/DVE, then how much is the risk lessened? Does it take 3X as long? 5X? Seems like it would lessened considerably vis a vis black bars.

Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil

What I've been trying to find out is if a set is properly set up with AVIA/DVE, then how much is the risk lessened? Does it take 3X as long? 5X? Seems like it would lessened considerably vis a vis black bars.

I don't know that there's ever really been anything quantified on that given that you'd need a controled study. I'd venture that you'd get a very significant gain over the black and once contrast and brightness are turned down from torch mode the risk is much less overall regardless of black or grey. I wouldn't even know where to begin to look for a study on this if it did exist.

Originally posted by Tom_Bombadil
Istvan,

I was waiting to see if others who have more experience in dealing with burn-in would respond, seeing none, I'll jump in.

Your logo burn-in is a nasty, and unfortunately all too common, problem. It is surprising that you would have it given that the channel isn't used all that much. Ther reports about burn-in from the MSNBC and Headline News logos and tickers were abundant back after 911 due to the hundreds of hours people left those channels on, even when working around the house, to keep up with the news.

One thing that sometimes lessens or eliminates the problem is to perform a full-screen white-burn. That is, find a way to display a full screen white image (say from a test DVD) for several hours. Or if you have a VCR or DBS receiver that can generate a blue screen with no lettering or symbols on it, then use that and turn up the brightness and contrast to make it pretty bright.

Some who have sophisticated PCs or good image editing tools, can create reverse-burn images, where they capture say a black screen shot that has the logo present, and then create a negative/reverse image of that shot, where then only the logo is black, and then run that screen for a while to even out the picture.

Others may offer more ideas.

Thanks for your answer. I'm pretty upset about that burn in, my son did not watch that channel for more like an hour a day for the past year and a half. As soon as I've got the tv I adjusted brigthness and contrast to less than 50%.

Can you still get burn-in with the new DLP and LCD tvs?

Originally posted by eRob
Can you still get burn-in with the new DLP and LCD tvs?

No! Now there has been threads about burn-in on LCDs but I don't know how extensive that is.

I have a Sony KP53XBR200 RPTV about 5 years old. I have a little over one month left in my +4 year EW from GE. I also have, courtesy of KTLA Los Angeles, their logo burned into the lower right corner of my TV. Other than boycotting the Morning News, I didn't know what else to do. I tried running an all white image to "wash" the screen, that didn't work.
This weekend I was talking to a CSR at a high end AV store in Santa Monica, and mentioned my problem. He insisted that the EWs they offer cover burn in. I called GE this AM and already have a service scheduled for Thursday for the beast (this set has been one big problem child) and asked about coverage. They want the tech to evaluate it. It sounds like I'll be "let down" gently. I already was LDG trying to claim "lemon" on the TV as I've had the same thing break on the TV 3 times in 4 months. It seems the 3rd occurance happend 3 weeks after the last repair and is still covered by the 30 day mid warranty. If I had waited another 10 days or so, I may have qualified for lemon protection! Grrrrr.
To those that remember this beast, it was quite the set, back in the day. Great SD picture but was plagued early on by green lines in component DVD mode. Sony figured it out and fixed it in the first year. All my problems have been relared to that some input (#5-component) and have been all the calls made to service the set.
I'll report the results on the burn in issue after I see what they do. I scanned above, has anyone successfully had burn in repaired under EW?

Quick question: what is the relation of black level (brightness) and burn-in?

I get white level (contrast) being to high will cause blooming and burn-in. But how does a high black level effect the tubes? Especially if the white level if well below blooming levels.

jdg

Originally posted by JohnDG
Quick question: what is the relation of black level (brightness) and burn-in?

I get white level (contrast) being to high will cause blooming and burn-in. But how does a high black level effect the tubes? Especially if the white level if well below blooming levels.

jdg

Contrast and brightness go hand in hand. If your brightness is too high that could possibly cause burn-in. The best thing to do is to use Video Essentials to properly set your brightness.

This is worth reading.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=415612

I have not done extensive research on this yet, but I cannot find info on if a LCD Rear Projection is or is not prone to burn in?


Also, does anyone know if it is or is not safe to use a DVI on non HD stations, or should I have another input hooked up (S-video??) for non HD stations?



I use DVI on my sony WE610 and recently I need to have my TV on with my cable box off and then turn the cable box on while my TV is on to get the picture to appear. I think this is more cable box related since this never used to be the case, but am unsure. Also when this first started happening a message came on the TV that stated "The HD content of this display has been comprimised, please use components inputs". Now I have no clue if this message is from the Comcast HD receiver or my TV. Recently I have not seen this message and the message only started appearing when I had to start recycling cable receiver power with the TV on to get a picture to appear.

I also have an ED plasma used about twice a week in my pool room. Again, I was told that a Component or DVI input used on non HD stations will ruin the TV, is this true? I just got the ED plasm over Memorial Day weekend and so far I like it for the reletively cheap price of $2500 with a wall mount.

Soo...

I have a 57" 16:9 Sony HD-RPTV...

Over the past several months... I became ADDICTED to SOCOM II (A PlayStation 2 Game)

Well... this game involves alot of hiding in dark maps... shooting through bushes... blah blah blah blah blah.

Because of this... my dumbass got sick of squinting and turned the brightness/contrast up pretty high in my `game mode`


Well... luckily... this game doesnt have many areas of high contrast... EXCEPT... for in the bottom right/left corners... there are two areas of white text.


Well... last night I popped in the `Love Actually` DVD (decent for a chick flick ;))

The DVD Menu is `PURE WHITE` and right away I noticed what looked like `dirt` on my screen.

Well it was only a few seconds later that I realized... the `dirt` was actually brown-hued... and very vague... outlines of the text from SOCOM. :\


So... I've looked through the FAQ... and the only fix I saw was `reversing the screen image`

How would I do it in this case... where the only `burn in` is small text outlines in the bottom corners? Is it possible?

If not... what can be repaired in my TV to fix this?

soopa, try to look for info on the "snow" technique. I have seen it referenced as a moderate remedy for burn-in. I assume you just keep snow on your tv for awhile, but do some research into what it involves.

turn your contrast down, as well, if it isn't already. I am not too worried about burn in on my hitachi because the room is pretty dark 24/7 and contrast is at 30 or so.

jomoma....

What box do you have? I have an SA3250HD from timewarner. there is a "passthrough" setting that doesn't convert the signal at all 480i -> 480i, 720p -> 720p, etc. This lets me fill the screen no matter what the signal is. I have no idea if you can damage a tv using DVI. I have heard that LCD and PLasma are susceptible to burn-in just like CRT, but CRT is the most susceptible. in the end it all depends on proper precautions, and about a million other variables :)

thanks... i'll check that out.

and yeh... i have my `calibrated` setting that im usually on...

but in that dark game it just made it sooo much easier to kill people i play against online with my contrast way up :D


oh well :o


hopefully i can fix it.

pheno... i'm having trouble finding info on the `snow technique`... did you see this elsewhere perhaps? link?

There is no problem with using DVI or Component connections. What they are referring to is that in the DVI mode your selection of aspect ratios is limited and sometimes you cant change it at all. So if 4:3 content comes on you cant stretch it so the black bars are there. It seems the plasma people have found that if you watch everything in stretch for the first few hundred hours, they are less susceptible to burn in. You have to watch a good mix of content

Actually plasma sets are more susceptible to burn-in than CRTs. Recent models are better but you can burn a plasma in just a few hours of fixed image viewing. Thus one has to be even more careful of their settings, viewing habits, logos, etc. with a plasma set.

I've read of cases of light burn-in where the "snow" technique has helped. A more drastic manuever is to display a full screen white image with brightness and contrast turned up to try to mask burn areas by doing a full-screen burn.

Burning up a projection TV with games is expensive entertainment there soopa.

Remedy to burn in:
If you can connect your PDP or RPTV to a computer, there is a program that is used by most manufacturers to try to 'fix' a burned in image.
The program is NTEST.exe from Nokia, which can also be found at:
.http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=960

You want to run the high voltage pattern on this test pattern program for about an hour or so and this should reduce or eliminate your existing burn in.

The premise of this program is similar to running a full white screen; but the act of toggling between dark/white screens ensures that you are running at a maximum voltage mode which 'drives' out burned in particles.

Originally posted by AFH
IS THERE ANYTHING THAT CAN BE DONE TO CIRCUMVENT "BURN-IN"

Absolutely, the list is as follows:

1) Get your display "calibrated". Now if that entails a professional ISF calibration (~$400) or a calibration via Avia or DVE (~$40). That's your call. Alot of "damage" can be curtailed by dialing down the brightness and contrast from the get go.
2) Put some sort of "color" on the side bars when watching 4:3 content in its native aspect ratio. If you absolutely hate stretching 4:3 content, that is filling the 16:9 aspect ratio of the unit, then make sure that the side bars are set to either "gray" or some other color than "black".
3) Did I mention to dial down the contrast and brightness?
4) Vary your viewing habits. In this day and age of 16:9 DVD's, HD content and SD content this should not be difficult to be achieved.
5) Dial down the contrast and brightness, are you getting this part yet?
6) CRTs are susceptible to "burn-in" when in their infancy as the phosphors have not had a chance to age. A few hundred hours of watching varied material to age the phosphors is not unrealistic and will probably due a lot to curtail possible damage.
7) TURN DOWN THE CONTRAST AND BRIGHTNESS OF THE DISPLAY. Sorry, but I firmly believe that this is crucial to preventing burn-in damage.
8) When you are done playing a video game or watching a movie with the “black bars?on the top and bottom, watch a program that fills the screen for the same amount of time you spent playing the video game or watching the movie. This will in a way help to “wash?away the previous static image.[/B]

This may not work for everyone out there, but I haven't notice anyone suggest this yet.

Instead of the 'ugly gray bars' on my parents' Mit55311(?), I got them to use the PIP to display three PIP images off to the right when they watch 4:3 material (practically all day) The 4:3 material is not stretched or in any way visibly changed (as compared to a 'tiny' 21" sony CRT in the kitchen area nearby) and the 3 side PIPs are also 4:3 formatted (so they also show up 'correctly')

On the Mit, the three PIP images cycle every few seconds, so the image is kept 'in motion' pretty much the whole time. One forseeable potential problem is where the 3 PIP stops and the 4:3 image begins... there might be a slim black line splitting the two that could cause uneven usage.

Again, it may not work for you, because having the 3 PIPs is somewhat distracting, but my parents actually got used to it and enjoy spotting what else might be on at the same time.

One side benefit is that I feel like i'm getting full use of all the channels from my cable provider this way. ;)

Of course, if this isn't a good way and is just a silly harebrained idea lacking any common sense, please let me know. (maybe that's why it hasn't been mentioned as a way of circumventing burn-in when viewing 4:3 material on a 16:9 tv...)

Is burn-in an issue with videogames on newer CRTs? For instance, will the HUDs and health meters get burned in? What are the guidelines for playing video games on a CRT RPTV?

Originally posted by Vikram R
Is burn-in an issue with videogames on newer CRTs? For instance, will the HUDs and health meters get burned in? What are the guidelines for playing video games on a CRT RPTV?

as long as phospher is involved, I believe so.

some RPs come with a 'Game Mode' which basically lowers the brightness and contrast (as far as I can tell)

generally, i try to limit it to a half-hour before switching to a different game if there's any static image on-screen...

Rolypoly--the Nokia test pattern looks very useful but how do you get the .exe program from a computer to a video input on the TV ? Are there computer programs to convert the .exe to a .jpg image recorded on a CD ? I don't know if that would work.

I just bought a Sony KDP-57WS550 and I have a question regarding burn-in and listening to music.

I have Dish Network and enjoy listening to music via Sirius Radio. For those of you who don't know, the screen turns all black except for a few lines of text that move around the screen with the song title, artist, etc.

Excuse my ignorance, and please don't laugh but what is the difference if my entire screen is black or if a letterbox movie is playing with the black bars, as far as burn-in is concerned?

Thank you in advance.

Originally posted by Bogey62
I just bought a Sony KDP-57WS550 and I have a question regarding burn-in and listening to music.

I have Dish Network and enjoy listening to music via Sirius Radio. For those of you who don't know, the screen turns all black except for a few lines of text that move around the screen with the song title, artist, etc.

Excuse my ignorance, and please don't laugh but what is the difference if my entire screen is black or if a letterbox movie is playing with the black bars, as far as burn-in is concerned?

Thank you in advance. If the entire screen is black, the phosphors aren't displaying anything, so they aren't aging. No burn-in. If the entire screen was white, the phosphors would age and dim slightly, but they would age evenly, so there would still be no burn-in (no visible after-image). With black bars on a movie, the areas under the black bars are not being used, the image where the movie is playing is, so eventually you end up with the bars visible all the time. Not because the area under the bars has changed, but because the area under the movie has.

A few lines of text shouldn't be a problem as long as they are randomly moving around the screen. It's stationary patterns that are a problem.

Originally posted by ceccacci
If the entire screen is black, the phosphors aren't displaying anything, so they aren't aging. No burn-in. If the entire screen was white, the phosphors would age and dim slightly, but they would age evenly, so there would still be no burn-in (no visible after-image). With black bars on a movie, the areas under the black bars are not being used, the image where the movie is playing is, so eventually you end up with the bars visible all the time. Not because the area under the bars has changed, but because the area under the movie has.

A few lines of text shouldn't be a problem as long as they are randomly moving around the screen. It's stationary patterns that are a problem.

OK, that clears it up, thanks ceccacci.

What the is the current opinion on how easily RPTV CRTs burn in as compared to the newer Plasma displays?

I just recently returned a plasma for an Hitachi RPTV and i'm a little worried.

I have no plans of playing videogames on the tv but I do plan on watching DVDs and many will be 2:35 aspect ratio. I also love watching HD baseball games and many of them have the same static score and game info on the top of the broadcast.

So, would I be at risk if I watch too many Cubs games and that score at top of the screen? I certainly plan to "mix it up" with my viewing and it's not like i'm only going to be watching Cubs games but i'm just wondering if I watch too many Cubs games if this could become a problem.

Also, what is the consensus on 2:35 movies? Don't watch too many? Don't worry about it much?

From reading this thread i'm honestly worried that CRT RPTVs could be more prone to burn in than the current crop of plasmas. From everything I read on the plasma forum it sounds like the new plasmas are really quite resistant to burn in.

We can only suggest the standard reply. Keep your contrast and brightness down. Watch a mix of content.
You would think that the HD broadcasters would know better about static logos and score bars. Write to them and complain!!

Most of the newer plasmas have things to help avoid burn-in, like auto contrast limiters, screen wipers and orbiters that move the picture a few pixels every so often. The best defense is knowledge and altered viewing habits. Keep your screen full as much as you can, but don't be afraid to watch DVDs. If you can find a channel or input that displays static (noise) in full screen that may be used to help even out any slight burn in you may get.

I'm sure this has already been answered in this forum somewhere, but I can't find it. Do LCD RPTV's and/or DLP RPTV's and/or any of the other new RPTV technologies eliminate the burn-in issue?

Ok, I had this idea, and it may be way off-base, but it might be just crazy enough to work. Unfortunately, I don't have a TV to try this on (yet), so you guys will have to see what works. Here are the steps:[list=1] Use a digital camera to take a picture of your burnt-in screen. I don't know which would work better: screen completely off, or screen on with a pure white screen. Which one shows the burn-in effect better? Anyway, you'll want to take the pic from as close to center as possible, so the image of the screen is as close to a rectangle as possible.
Get the resulting image into Photoshop (or other image-editing prog), and crop out everything but the screen. You might have to adjust the geometry, so it's a perfect rectangle, and you don't end up cropping part of the screen, or leaving part of the TV border in there. This is where I'm thinking it'll be better to take the pic with the set on with a pure white screen, so you can also crop parts of the screen that don't display anything.
Change image mode to RGB color. (From now on, I'll assume you're using Photoshop. If not, you'll have to figure out how to do the equivalent on your software).
Choose "Image->Adjustments->Levels" (or hit Ctrl-L). Make sure "Channel" is set to RGB. Then adjust the two triangles below the histogram, so that the black triangle is just to the right of the lowest value on the graph; then slide the white triangle so it's just to the left of the highest value on the graph. This will make it so you have a full range of white-to-black values, thereby exercising the non-burnt areas more. NOTE: You do NOT have to "invert" the image in any way, as the burnt areas will be black on the resulting image, and therefore will not be exercised by the resulting image.
Figure out how many pixels get cropped from the top, bottom, and each side of a 640x480(?) signal, due to your DVD player's pixel-cropping, plus overscan on your set. I assume there's something on DVE and/or Avia to help you do this.
Then add enough white space to the top, bottom, left, and right side of your image to make up for the amount not shown on your set.
Resize the resulting image to 640x480(?). Use "Image->Image size..." and make sure you constrain proportions. EDIT: I just realized that 640x480 would only give you a 4:3 image. The resolution of a 16:9 image would be 853.333 x 480. This doesn't seem like it would convert correctly. Maybe you just do 640x480 and have your TV stretch the signal. If that's the case, you'll need to shrink the image the other way (make it thinner) to fit.
There are many ways to do this step. You'll want to convert the resulting image to a media file, and burn it onto either a blank DVD or CD (as VCD or SVCD). Or it might be as simple as saving the jpg on a CD and using the DVD player's jpg viewer, but this might yield differing results as far as image-cropping, so you'd have to re-figure those values.
Display the resulting file on your set. Verify that the darkened areas of the image match up with the burned areas of the screen. If not, you may have to make adjustments to your image and re-burn a new CD/DVD.
When you're satisfied, display the image on your set for an hour or two at a time (use your judgement, as I have no experience with this). Hopefully, this will reverse the burn-in. Also, turning your contrast all the way up should speed up the process (remember your old value!).
In addition, if you can make the image "blink" on and off, I believe I've read that it exercises the pixels even faster, as they burn faster when constantly being turned on and off. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, as I don't want anyone to ruin their sets doing this!
[/list=1] Well, that's it. I know it's a lot of trouble, but if you really want to get rid of burn-in, it seems like it wouldn't be too bad. Any suggestions/improvements? Am I way off, or would this work?

It's not a bad idea, but I think it would be tricky, at best. And I don't think there is any way you are going to get an image taken with a digital camera to line up correctly just due to the optical distortion involved with the screen/lens/sensor combination.

I'd be interested in hearing the results if anyone tries it though.

So, the first season of Sopranos is on its way to my house (JOY!!)

Would it be rater stupid to say...wake up early one saturday and just watch the entire season - assuming there are black bars? I doubt I'll do that, but maybe this winter i'll be tempted to do that with Band Of Brothers (when I get it...)

Or should I watch a few episodes, then put on some snow for a bit?

what do you guys with seasons of shows (with blackbars) do?

thanks, as always

General question... what does it look like when some of those black bars burn in?

I play a lot of Playstation 2, and so do a lot of my friends and family... and no matter what, there's always tiny black bars on either side of the screen. I'm worried about them burning in, though I take precautions. What would I expect it to look like if they DID burn in? Would the edge of the screen be darker, or lighter?

Panoral:
The main pattern that needs to be run is a pattern that alternates between black and white every few seconds.

I would recommend two approaches to view this on your TV:
1) This type of pattern could be encoded into MPEG2 onto a DVD or CD.
2) Otherwise, if you have a video card with SVideo output, you can connect a computer through the Svideo input of your TV.

Let me know how this goes for the burn in, since I am curious on the outcome myself. I have seen this successfully work to 'fix' a PDP after running this application for 15 minutes.

Good luck
Roland

Originally posted by RebelScum
Ok, I had this idea, and it may be way off-base, but it might be just crazy enough to work. Unfortunately, I don't have a TV to try this on (yet), so you guys will have to see what works. Here are the steps:[list=1] Use a digital camera to take a picture of your burnt-in screen. I don't know ...

It would be very difficult to get the resulting image registered with the burned area after all the processing, and any distortion introduced by the digicam lens.

One alternate idea: For new sets, a built-in "BurnFixer" feature, where it reverses the offending video and cranks up the brightness to age the less-used phosphors to match.

Personally, since 85% of my viewing would be 4:3 Tivo output, I'll porobably go for a DLP or a LC if it's maker certifies it to be burn-proof..

Right now my brightness is about 38 and picture 39 is this a safe setting?? The default movie mode is like 50 for brightness and 50 for picture.

this is for the 55PW9383 Also this set features something called APAC (Automatic Phosphor Aging Compensation) its supposed to shift the picture in small increments to prevent letterbox burn in but I never notice any shifting of the image though.

Originally posted by jdobbs2001
Right now my brightness is about 38 and picture 39 is this a safe setting?? The default movie mode is like 50 for brightness and 50 for picture.

this is for the 55PW9383 Also this set features something called APAC (Automatic Phosphor Aging Compensation) its supposed to shift the picture in small increments to prevent letterbox burn in but I never notice any shifting of the image though.

Check out the default settings for the WS550's vivid mode -- one of them is cranked wide open (100%). Crazy.

I don't know which would work better: screen completely off, or screen on with a pure white screen. Which one shows the burn-in effect better?
____________________________________________________________
Burn-in does not occur on the screen but rather on the faces of the CRT's themselves(phosphors). Then it is projected as lighter than the rest of the image due to it not being used in that area as much. As far as the sopranos and bars goes, if your settings are fine , just feed your set a steady, equal diet of letterebox and full screen (at least equall full screen time) and you should be fine.

Originally posted by pittdog1
I don't know which would work better: screen completely off, or screen on with a pure white screen. Which one shows the burn-in effect better?
____________________________________________________________
Burn-in does not occur on the screen but rather on the faces of the CRT's themselves(phosphors). Then it is projected as lighter than the rest of the image due to it not being used in that area as much. As far as the sopranos and bars goes, if your settings are fine , just feed your set a steady, equal diet of letterebox and full screen (at least equall full screen time) and you should be fine. Ok, thanks. I had read on here that burn-in can be noticed, even with the set completely off. Maybe when that happens you're seeing a reflection of the burnt CRT faces. I was simply pondering which would show the effect more. I take it from this info that you would see it most effectively with the screen on, showing a pure white screen?

here's a link to Keohi HDTV

http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/learnabout/definitions/burnin.html

showing examples of what burn in looks like & what to do to avoid it

Is it true that a DLP can't get burn in at all?

Originally posted by Beefgude
Is it true that a DLP can't get burn in at all?

yes

my new hitachi 42v710 lcd says that i should not run in 4:3 mode with the grey bars more than 15% of the time becasue it can lead to uneven aging of the phosphors; is this true? i dont really like running in 4:3 zoom mode.

Originally posted by creamy-nuts
my new hitachi 42v710 lcd says that i should not run in 4:3 mode with the grey bars more than 15% of the time becasue it can lead to uneven aging of the phosphors; is this true? i dont really like running in 4:3 zoom mode. Um, something wrong there, since an LCD doesn't have any phosphors....

Strange question that doesn't apply to most, more than likely the reason I've yet to find my answer or even know exactly how to search for it :p


If your television is turned on with no other source material running (IE nothing more than a black/blank screen with no static labels or such) can that cause burn in??

I'm not sure exactly how it happened whether it was a power issue or someone other than myself didn't notice they hadn't turned the television off. Either way I don't know how long the TV was left on in either case but I'm curious as to whether any serious damage could be done. Such an occurance where the TV has been left on has happened twice now.

Common sense lead me to believe that it'd be pretty hard to get typical burn in when you've got a blank image covering the entire screen but I'm wondering if having that completely black image on my screen for an untold amount of time could possibly make my picture darker or shorten the life of my set.

It seems the most obvious determining factor would simply be "how does the image look??" Well the answer to that would be that it appears to be just as brilliant as it ever was. It's always hard to compare two images when side by side isn't an option. So to the naked eye it appears fine but I just want to find out if it's likely that this could/could not cause damage to the set.

Not only that but tonight I noticed that when I first turned on the television (again with no video source running) that I had a number of evenly spaced vertical bars that were of a darker black all the way across the screen and on the sides I had what appeared to be standard sized black bars (as if you were watching 4:3 material). I found that kind of odd seeing as how I rarely, if ever, view non~stretched 4:3 material.

Before noticing this effect the television had been off for well over twenty four hours so it wasn't as if something I'd been earlier in the evening was just leaving that temporary effect. Odd thing is however that when I turned on my HD receiver the image appears to be just as beautiful as it always was and no bars or any such adverse effects appear on screen.

So am I just suffering from paranoia or do I have the beginings of a serious problem??

For the record the television is a standard 57" Hitachi Ultravision. Thanks in advance for the assistance.

Originally posted by ceccacci
Um, something wrong there, since an LCD doesn't have any phosphors....

i thought so but the manual says differnt

it states:
4:3 Standard mode ... use this mode for only 15% of your total viewing time to prevent uneven aging of the phosphors. Phosphors in the lighted area of the picture will age more rapidly than the gray areas.

weird eh?

are there any burn in issues with the JVC D-ILA?

One thing to consider on content is if you watch a lot of OTA digital local channels, they all have differently-situated black bars. Thus the burn-in borders will be constantly moving around, being overlayed with content, etc. So if you buy one of these, and you DO watch a lot of local channels - do what I did, get an OTA antenna and don't forget to watch your free local HD and SD content as well. Besides it looks way better in quality that the satellite versions of the local channels. I have my set set up so the remote switches easily from Directtv to OTA with just two buttons on each switch. If it's local, I watch it over the antenna, it looks better, and varied black bar positioning too. Even if you only watch ONE ota local channel a lot, at least you are breaking up the constant black borders during that time.
(Hitachi 51S700)....Frenchy

I have a 2000 model Hitachi 60" RPTV. I calibrated it with Video Essentials about 3 years ago. I game on it quite a bit with my Xbox- I'd say 2-3 hours/night. I also watch 16:9 dvd's without zoom (with black bars). I have no detectable burn-in.

I may be fortunate, but I think it has more to do with calibrating it with Video Essentials. I think the important thing is to not overdrive the CRT's unnecessarily.

Hey I have a question on reversing burn-in, I just got a RPTV CRT and if I were to keep a log on how many hours I watch in letterbox and then create a DVD where the footage is reversed, have footage where the bars for the 4:3 would be and black in the center. And run the DVD for an equal amount of time. Would that help in reversing burn-in.

I have question as well. I have a hitachi 43in. hdtv that I purchased about two years ago and when there's a scene with low light, the darker portions of the picture look washed out somewhat and hard to see detail. It just looks brighter in that part of the screen. Now, let me go get my box of tissues to cry in while ya all tell me I have screen burn. Is it screen burn?

Ozz, it sounds like you just need to use DVE or Avia to calibrate your brightness and contrast levels. That should bring out the details in your darker areas.

Originally posted by Beefgude
are there any burn in issues with the JVC D-ILA?

No

Ozz,

That is not burn in, its called black crush or lack of shadow detail. I would do as RebelScum recommends and calibrate you TV.

Originally posted by jrtalon
if I were to keep a log on how many hours I watch in letterbox and then create a DVD where the footage is reversed, have footage where the bars for the 4:3 would be and black in the center. And run the DVD for an equal amount of time. Would that help in reversing burn-in.

It might, but you would have to have the perfect reverse image or you might end up with a strange burn in.

Here is the basic deal with burn in. Its perfectly avoidable by taking several steps

Lower your contrast (white level) below 50%

Keep the brightness (black level) near or below 50% (There are differing opinions on this one)

Stretch everything in the first 300 or so hours of the TV. Your set is more susceptible to Burn early in its life, and as time goes on there is less of a chance.

If you watch a lot of 4:3 and wont stretch buy a LCD, DLP, LCOS or D-ILA.

Its fine to watch things with black bars occasionally. After your initial break in don't worry about watching a 2.35 DVD, just make sure you that you fill the screen most of the time.

There is life with technology that burns. It just takes some minor adjustments to your viewing habits.

is "picture" the same as contrast? Also I have a panasonic it goes from 1 - 63.
I usually use the standard preset which gives me a brightness of 31 and a picture of 45.

Thankyou Rebelscum and barrybud. That eased my mind to hear your replys. I will try the DVE disk for the picture but I can tell this may take some time to figure out. I got the DVE disk a while back for my audio set-up and that seemed easy enough but the video portion of the disk was not so clear to me. I will give it shot this weekend so I might bug you guys again if thats o.k. Thanks again for the help. Rob.:)

Originally posted by Barrybud
No

Barrybud, on what do you base this answer? The user manual for my JVC HD-ILA 52" clearly states that burn-in is an issue and the user should mix up his or her viewing habits. Don't get me wrong, I hope you are right. But I would like to know if you know what you are talking about?

Hi SillySorcerer,

Originally posted by AFH

WHAT IS "BURN-IN"

Typically, "burn-in" is defined as an uneven wear of a phosphor based display unit (Plasma and CRT for example). It is the phenomena of being able to "see" the remnants of something that was being "displayed" even though you are watching totally different content. It is not image retention, which goes away.

HOW DOES IT OCCUR

It occurs due to content being viewed not in the aspect ratio of the display unit thereby aging phosphors in the display differently. For example, 4:3 content is being viewed as 4:3 content on a 16:9 display device with the side bars as "black". Viewing in this way for extended periods of time (not defined) will cause the phosphors in the middle of the unit to age faster than the phosphors in the black side bar. When phosphors age they decrease in brightness.

Since D-ILA is not a phosphor based display, its not susceptible to this. I bet that JVC in an attempt to cut corners, took a manual from a CRT based RPTV and updated it to these sets. This technology including LCoS use this fact as a selling point.

Here is a quote from the sales description on this set.

"A three-chip structure, incorporated into the HD-52Z575, continuously reproduces a flicker-free and burn-free picture."

You might want to contact JVC and ask them, just to ease your concern. I dont blameyou for the concern at all. I would want to make sure that my new toy is safe too!

Thank you, BarryBud. Your suggestion to contact JVC was a good one and I received a prompt response. I will share my question and JVC's answer in case it is of interest to others on this board:

Question: "Is the HD-52Z575 HD-ILA model susceptable to burn-in? Is it safe to watch programs in 4:3 aspect mode? Is it safe to hook up a game console?"

Answer: "The HD-52Z575 is not susceptible to screen burn. You can use the unit in 4:3 mode and with Video Game systems."

So, you are proven correct! Thank you for the help!

I hope this is the right thread for my question:

Other AVSers have informed me that LCD RPTVs do not suffer from burn-in (I previously thought they had). I can't afford a DLP set, but LCDs are much cheaper. Also, I am not too particular about video quality. I am mostly concerned about longevity, freedom from burn-in and physical dimensions (I have a narrow stairway leading to my HT). CRTs with the screen size I like are too deep.

I do, however, prefer a large screen and little to no visible mosquito noise on upconverted SD source material. I can't live with grey bars, but I watch a lot of 4:3 stuff, so I must have a BLACK bar option. Also, I will not watch stretch modes if the geometry is distorted or if part of the image is cut off.

So, since LCD RPTVs are mostly immune to burn-in, which sets with 55-60" diagonal offer a BLACK bar option for 4:3 and wide-screen viewing?

Originally posted by Bondmanp
So, since LCD RPTVs are mostly immune to burn-in, which sets with 55-60" diagonal offer a BLACK bar option for 4:3 and wide-screen viewing? All of them? I think you'd have a much tougher time finding one with a gray bar option.

Originally posted by jrtalon
is "picture" the same as contrast? Also I have a panasonic it goes from 1 - 63.
I usually use the standard preset which gives me a brightness of 31 and a picture of 45.

Yes

This thread has been very helpful to me.

I just spotted the burn-in on my RPTV when I recently was dubbing camcorder over to DVD. I had a shot of the TV and noticed that the top and bottom portions of the screen were lighter. Actually, the middle had the appearance of color filters over the scene. I began to look at the screen closely during normal viewing and can tell a very slight brightness variation when there's a solid and very bright image on screen. I can also tell it when side-by-side picture is activated and the background is grey.

I have a question about "fixing" burn-in. If I try to reverse the image, shooting to the top and bottom of the screen while leaving the middle black, am I negating the burn-in or am I simply making the top and bottom go darker to even the middle? I'm guessing that it's only going to even up the burn. Thanks.

Originally posted by durl
I have a question about "fixing" burn-in. If I try to reverse the image, shooting to the top and bottom of the screen while leaving the middle black, am I negating the burn-in or am I simply making the top and bottom go darker to even the middle? I'm guessing that it's only going to even up the burn. Thanks. You're guessing right.

I have a different type of burn-in issue than most in this thread in that I have a 4:3 HD-RPTV. My burn-in is revealing itself by the top and bottom being lighter. It's not extremely noticeable, but I want to delay further damage as best I can. I went with it because we were watching less than 20% of widescreen content and thought it best to have a full screen to prevent burn in on the sides. (I LOATHE the idea of stretching any picture.)

What has disappointed me is that I didn't expect to see slight burn in after a couple of years and limited widescreen viewing. I had hoped that since we watch only a few hours of widescreen at a time that it wouldn't be an issue. So I guess the wake-up I've had is that if you have a RPTV, whether 16:9 or 4:3, burn-in will always be an issue regardless of what you watch.

So when will someone invent a device that turns your TV on (overnight, for example), reads the wear on the CRTs, and then beams a negative image for a period of time in order to even out the burn?

durl, wanna try my burn-in fixing method (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4132421#post4132421) and let us know how well it works? Nothing to lose, I guess, right?

what are the new anti-burn-in features and technologies in RPTV's called?

also, what current models have these features?

edit: are tube tv's susceptible to burn-in?

Originally posted by Joltin Joe
what are the new anti-burn-in features and technologies in RPTV's called?

also, what current models have these features?

edit: are tube tv's susceptible to burn-in? Read the thread Joltin Joe. <G>

There are no "anti-burn-in" features. The underlying technology of a display is susceptible to burn-in or it's not. Any CRT (tube) based display, whether direct view or projector, can suffer burn in. So can plasmas. The risk in either case can be reduced with proper adjustment and by varying the material shown. DLP, LCD, and LCoS are pretty much immune because they don't contain phosphors. There have been one or two reports of permanent image retention on LCD's, but this is extremely rare at best.

Originally posted by rolypoly
Panoral:
The main pattern that needs to be run is a pattern that alternates between black and white every few seconds.

I would recommend two approaches to view this on your TV:
1) This type of pattern could be encoded into MPEG2 onto a DVD or CD.
2) Otherwise, if you have a video card with SVideo output, you can connect a computer through the Svideo input of your TV.

Let me know how this goes for the burn in, since I am curious on the outcome myself. I have seen this successfully work to 'fix' a PDP after running this application for 15 minutes.

Good luck
Roland

I've been trying this off and on to fix some burn-in on my CRT. I've let it run for up to 3 hours straight (at full contrast) and the burn-in is still there, although it does look to be a little diminished. But that may be my wishful thinking.

I use my laptop's s-video out to get on my RPTV, but you can also get a VGA-SVideo dongle + a long VGA extension cord for a few bucks. My old Matrox G400 included on in the box.

Steve

I have a couple of questions if you guys can help me out:

Since I began to notice slight burn-in issues with my RPTV, I re-calibrated my set so that Picture (Contrast) is at or near 50% and Brightness is just a tick above 50%.

Question 1 - Does Contrast play more of a role than Brightness when Brightness is not too high?

I put up a grey screen to look at the burn-in again. When I get REAL close, I noticed some letters in the bottom left-hand corner. After studying it for awhile (the letters are very hard to notice), I realized it's burn-in from my on-screen satellite guide. Needless to say I'm very nervous about how long it will be before the burn-in becomes a major issue.

Question 2 - Since I re-calibrated my set, will this burn-in continue to get worse where the guide is displayed or will the screen simply burn-in evenly? Will the guide continue to burn-in at a much higher rate?

Thanks everyone.

Originally posted by durl
I have a couple of questions if you guys can help me out:

Since I began to notice slight burn-in issues with my RPTV, I re-calibrated my set so that Picture (Contrast) is at or near 50% and Brightness is just a tick above 50%.

Question 1 - Does Contrast play more of a role than Brightness when Brightness is not too high?

I put up a grey screen to look at the burn-in again. When I get REAL close, I noticed some letters in the bottom left-hand corner. After studying it for awhile (the letters are very hard to notice), I realized it's burn-in from my on-screen satellite guide. Needless to say I'm very nervous about how long it will be before the burn-in becomes a major issue.

Question 2 - Since I re-calibrated my set, will this burn-in continue to get worse where the guide is displayed or will the screen simply burn-in evenly? Will the guide continue to burn-in at a much higher rate?

Thanks everyone.

Burn-in is a function of contrast only. Brightness plays no role. In fact, the higher the brightness, the less your set is susceptible to burn-in because your decreasing your dynamic range.

I don't know where your contrast/brightness were set to before, but if you've decreased the difference b/t (Contrast % - Brightness %, which would be -1 at your current settings) then your guide will burn-in at a slower rate than before. But it will still burn-in over time if it always appears in the same place. You might try moving the picture up/down/left/right a little using your set's service menu. That would help a lot.

Steve

Stephen - thanks for the info. It's a good education for me.

I've used service menu before to perform a manual convergence so I'll do some more research on how to move the picture around a bit.

Hello,

I have been lurking around this board for quite some time but this is my first post.. I have noticed on my Mits 65311 that it has got some minor burn in from the Tivo menus.. THe direct tv logo and the white line that circles the show list.

As an fyi, this is through normal use.. When I first got the tv, the first thing I did was turn down the contrast and brightness.. I also never stay on the menus very long, but alas, after much tv watching, using tivo, i have noticed the burn in on light sky/solid light colored images..

Now here is the possible solution that I am trying now.. In an earlier post, someone mentioned taking a digital photo of the screen menu, then getting it into a computer.. The easier way is to take a digital camcorder, use the s-video out of the tivo and into the cam corder. You then go to the menu screen in Tivo and hit record on the camera.

From there, you import the short clip into your computer.. (I use a Mac) You then take the video clip, save it as a .jpg or .pct. Next open the picture in Photoshop, invert the image to a negative, and then using a white paintbrush in the tool, you erase all the image on the screen except for the direct tv logo and the white line around the show list.. This now shows up in black..

Next step is to save the image to a vcd or dvd and burn it.. After that, display the image on your tv with the brightness and contrast turned way up to speed the process of aging the non burned in areas of the screen.. You may need to use the service menu to move the lines around to make sure you are exactly lined up with the burn in image.. I first use a white screen from Avia to see the burn in clearly, then use masking tape to outline the burn in areas and compare it to the dvd image I created..

Then try leaving it on for an hour or so at a time and re-check for the burn in to fade. I have done this for about 10 hours and so far my burn in is getting noticeably more faint... Hope it completely works for me and others. good luck and let me know what you guys think...

David

Hey David. I have the exact same issue w/the DirecTV logo and outline box burned-in a bit on my RPTV. I don't have any way to get the TiVo menu into my computer to try this fix method, but it occurs to me -- wouldn't the same pattern work for me as well? Can I get a copy of it to try out myself? My email is stephen.smith@avriocorp.com

test

Anyone in Dallas have FOX4 burned in their screen like me???

I plan to play playstaion and xobox on my 53" panny widescreen crt rptv. wil i have any problem as long as i stretch the picture and not leave it paused?

thanks for the adivce

You see, burn-in is scaring me. I'd like to plunk down a mere 1500 for a 42" TV, but I will probably spend 3-5 grand on LCD or DLP because the notion of having to worry about this crap is so bad. I am so conflicted.

I apologize in advance, but if your TiVo menu is burned in your screen you must have watched the menu more than the shows that you recorded on it. ;)

Originally posted by jomoma
I have not done extensive research on this yet, but I cannot find info on if a LCD Rear Projection is or is not prone to burn in?




I understand DLP has no issues, can people give me a link to a site with regard to LCD RP?

Thanks much,

EW

Originally posted by beckmen
You see, burn-in is scaring me. I'd like to plunk down a mere 1500 for a 42" TV, but I will probably spend 3-5 grand on LCD or DLP because the notion of having to worry about this crap is so bad. I am so conflicted.

Join the club. This is agonizing sometimes. Like I mentioned in another thread, I'm just gonna take the $3K and blow it in Vegas.

Burn in is just something that you have to be aware of, it doesn't have to rule your life. You don't have to throw out your TV if you watch a 60 minute sitcom in 4:3. If you do it for 3 hours a days for 2 month, then you may have some issues.
Just be aware that you should watch most things stretched or HD as much as possible. If you are someone who hates stretched content then you might have to think about a non-burn technology.

These type of displays seem a little more susceptible to damage in the first 200 hours so pay a little more attention when they are new. Just follow the suggestions set forth by this thread and you should be fine.

Sad to say, burn-in can "just happen" no matter how careful you are.

I have a two-year old (last month) Hitachi 51swx20b that I correctly adjusted with Avia (which I have maintained) and have babied. Contrast has never been high, no video games, no static images, the sidebars have been gray since day one, etc.

But: 70% or so of the viewing done with this TV is 4:3. I cannot stand the stretch and zoom modes (my choice, I fully admit), but I have -- as I mentioned -- always used the gray bars.

Yesterday, I watched "Fellowship of the Rings" and what did I see for the first time during the snow scenes? You guessed it: I can now see the 4:3 area when watching 16:9 material. It is (currently) light, but present. [And -- coincidentally no doubt -- one month after the warrantee period expired]

Two years, even with correct calibration levels. As they say, "stuff happens" -- but thank you oh so much, originator of this thread, for saying I've abused this set... Makes me feel so much better.

Why manufacturers don't make it so we can shift the 4:3 area around on our sets' 16:9 screen I'll never know. Seems like an obvious solution to me. Sure, the very centre will still see more use than the sides, but if I could shift the entire picture to either side occasionally it would certainly avoid having a hard and easily visible wear line... Is there any set with this feature?

-Iain, unamused

odlin,

I am sorry for what has happened to you TV. A friend of mine has a 65" Mits that is showing the same thing. He insisted on watching the 4:3 on the HD channels where a stretch could be used.

The gray bars are better than the black and it depends just how bright they are too. If you think about it you are watching 70% 4:3, those bars are static images for all that time. They are not changing colors, brightness or position. It would be nice RP CRT's had an orbiter feature that plasma has. it moves the image around by a number of pixel lines ever so often. Though I doubt that CRTs will adopt much in the way anti-burn in technology at this stage in the game.

I don't think that the OP or I am chastising you or anyone else. We can only offer suggestions. Seventy percent of any aspect ratio will cause damage unless the entire screen is in use.

The sacrifice for having the best PQ is the possibility of uneven phosphor burn. One must consider how any display will be used as part of the total choice. Two years ago a 4:3 RP CRT might have been the answer...?

Two years ago a 4:3 RP CRT might have been the answer...?
Nope. I have Movie Nights with friends every weekend and widescreen was a requirement. I used to have a 4:3 RP set, you see (Six years, no burn).

Everything's a trade-off and I knew the dangers. And, as I said, --it happens.

I came looking for possible ameliorations for the problem and ran across this thread (naturally). So I was just posting partly to vent and partly to add my data-point: Hitachi 51swx20b, correctly calibrated, gray bars from day one == Two years, one month until noticeable burn-in.

Guess I'll start using one of the stretch modes for a while (bleah!) and see if it helps soften the line a bit...

Thanks, all.
-Iain

Iain,

Thank you for sharing this information. Your experience is exactly what I was asking about way back at the start of this thread. A person with a high quality set, using the properly adjusted settings, and gray bars. I'm very disappointed to learn that you are seeing burn-in after just 2 years.

For an HD set owner to have to grossly distort a 4:3 image (i.e. employ stretch modes) to avoid screen damage, even when properly adjusted, is a condemnation of this technology.

It is too bad that RP CRT guns are not as resistent to burn-in as CRT tubes. The tubes aren't perfect, but it is hard to produce burn-in on a modern tube.

As to plasma, we are using one in my place of work to display status information. When it was three months old, we turned it off and the status menus were burned in and highly visible from 20'.

Originally posted by StephenMSmith
Burn-in is a function of contrast only. Brightness plays no role. In fact, the higher the brightness, the less your set is susceptible to burn-in because your decreasing your dynamic range.
Steve


Hey Steve,

I'm a newbie to all this stuff and I have a question about this statement as all of the posts I have read seem to equate brightness settings and contrast settings as being equal "culprits" in regards to phosphur aging and burn in.

I would be very happy if your statement is true, because I have my TV's brightness AND contrast (picture setting) cranked down to 50 and 50, but it produces an image that is too dark for my taste.

I would love to be able to crank the brightness up to say 65 without being panged with guilt that I am prematurely aging my set, or increasing the chances of producing a "burnt in" image.

If you don't mind could you clarify this for me...

THANKS !!

P.S - THIS FORUM IS GREAT!

I play video game's a lot, I mean sometime's more then 5 hour's a day and I'm think'n about get'n a 51" ( Or Bigger ) Projection Tv. Thing I'm ask'n is how common is a " Burn In " while play'n a video game? I honestly whould like to know because I don't want to get a Projection Tv then a little while later it be all mess'd up. People tell me it'll be alright long as you don't pause it and leave it there for long period's of time. Thank's.

If you get a DLP TV you can play all day and night without worry.

XBOX has an HDTV module

Anything else especially plasma and CRT based RPTV will burn.

I played a lot of XBOX Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six, scoped in much of the time. In this view, there is a large circle in the middle of the screen you view the action through and the rest of the screen is black. I've noticed that when games load and maybe there is a graphic in the middle of the screen, there is a large lighter circle in the middle of the screen which matches the dimensions of the scoped view. It isn't noticeable at any other time, but I could see this becoming a problem in the future. Now I choose weapons that don't black out the rest of the screen when you zoom in. Just a burn-in warning maybe others haven't thought of.

I don't know if this is really burn in or if it's just light spilling over from the splash graphic in a circle around it. I guess a professional calibration would help but it's not at the top of my list of things to spend money on.

Originally posted by Mick_S3
Hey Steve,

I'm a newbie to all this stuff and I have a question about this statement as all of the posts I have read seem to equate brightness settings and contrast settings as being equal "culprits" in regards to phosphur aging and burn in.

I would be very happy if your statement is true, because I have my TV's brightness AND contrast (picture setting) cranked down to 50 and 50, but it produces an image that is too dark for my taste.

I would love to be able to crank the brightness up to say 65 without being panged with guilt that I am prematurely aging my set, or increasing the chances of producing a "burnt in" image.

If you don't mind could you clarify this for me...

THANKS !!

P.S - THIS FORUM IS GREAT!

Yeah, I should clarify that now that I re-read it...

Burn-in and phosphor aging are 2 different things. Burn-in is when you see the remanants of some static image on your screen and it is a result of contrast. However, both brightness and contrast contribute to phosphor aging, the difference being that brightness causes uniform aging (or you could think of it as uniform burn-in!), while contrast causes leads to the static images people think of when they hear burn-in. Phospor aging is a normal and can't be avoided, but I've seen statistics that today's CRT's have at least 7-10 years of good life before you would say "hey, that picture is really dim", so I'd increase your brightness w/o worry.

Steve

How much of an effect on burn in does the "color temperature" setting have ? I just adjusted my Hitachi 46F510 and it looks the best to me with the color temperature at high. However everything else is equal to or below 50%. ( i.e. contrast , brightness , etc ..)

Thanks
Jason

Originally posted by cjob68
How much of an effect on burn in does the "color temperature" setting have ? I just adjusted my Hitachi 46F510 and it looks the best to me with the color temperature at high. However everything else is equal to or below 50%. ( i.e. contrast , brightness , etc ..)

Thanks
Jason

Very little if any at all. The color temps are just minor adjustments to drive and cutoff settings wrapped up as preset packages.

Also, those adjustment percentages are totally arbitrary on a set by set basis. Don't worry about 50%, 30%, or even 99%. Use Avia or similar to set brightness, contrast, color, tint, etc. and that will ensure your not over-driving anything.

Originally posted by gwsat
I didn't realize until after I had bought my DLP, a 50" RCA, that DLPs are not subject to the dreaded burn in problem. I bought my DLP only because I saw it standing next to an LCD HDTV on the dealer's floor and thought that its PQ was significantly better than the LCD's.

The DLP's immunity from burn in has proved to be a boon to me. The horizontal distortion caused by stretching and the apparent loss of resolution caused by zooming bother me so I am grateful that I can watch 4:3 material in native format and not have to worry about burn in.

Hey All;

I just got a new JVC LCOS "D-ILA" set today; I had a Samsung DLP temp while waiting for this one on order (I have to say that the picture on this JVC impresses me, and I no longer see the rainbow effect of the DLP), and this issue totally slipped my mind. I knew DLPs were immunue to burn-in, and I thought LCD & LCOS TVs were as well, except my new LCOS TV has warnings in the manual and a sticker on it, warning about burn in, and how I should allow no more than 15% of viewing at any one time to have a static image. Is this for real? I mention this because they also mention the term "picture tube", which my TV obviously does not have, and I'm wondering if this is just a generic warning they put with all their TVs, or if I really should worry about this with my LCOS TV? It's really an issue since I can't stand grey bars.

--Nat

Originally posted by StephenMSmith
Also, those adjustment percentages are totally arbitrary on a set by set basis. Don't worry about 50%, 30%, or even 99%. Use Avia or similar to set brightness, contrast, color, tint, etc. and that will ensure your not over-driving anything.

Thanks for the response(s) it is much appreciated!!

I have a quick Q. The tech behind RPCRT and CRT's are not much defferent right. So why have I ben able to watch WS DVD's and play tons of games(and leave them sit in one spot for 15-20 min at a time) and never see any burn in. My PC monitor is a 19" CRT and there is no burn in on it. So why are RPCRT's so easily burned? What, when why, where and how did the tech go that lost the ability to have phospher not burn. RPCRT's IMO have taken a large step back in tech if they cannot perform the same as there counter part. Both use phospher, both use guns to illuminate that phospher just one removed the vaccume tube and instead smashed the phospher between two plates of thin glass. This just really makes no since. My 5 year old TV has not one ioda of burn in or aging. :confused:

Well, my "guess" is that is because the CRTs inside CRT projectors are much much brighter.

Originally posted by reddragon72
I have a quick Q. The tech behind RPCRT and CRT's are not much defferent right. So why have I ben able to watch WS DVD's and play tons of games(and leave them sit in one spot for 15-20 min at a time) and never see any burn in. My PC monitor is a 19" CRT and there is no burn in on it. So why are RPCRT's so easily burned? What, when why, where and how did the tech go that lost the ability to have phospher not burn. RPCRT's IMO have taken a large step back in tech if they cannot perform the same as there counter part. Both use phospher, both use guns to illuminate that phospher just one removed the vaccume tube and instead smashed the phospher between two plates of thin glass. This just really makes no since. My 5 year old TV has not one ioda of burn in or aging. :confused:

That something I've always wondered about too. I have a dark desktop background, so why are there no signs on the much lighter colored taskbar burnt in? And my PC CRT has been on for a lot longer than my RPTV.

I first wondered about this way back when I calibrated my PC CRT for Photoshop. For a PC CRT monitor, you are told to turn the white level (contrast) up to 100% and leave it there unless your eyes just can't stand it because anything lower than 100% reduces dynamic range.

Someone smart explain, please.

Tom,

We also have a 46" NEC plasma display at work for info posting (do we work at the same place???). The image on ours was panelled into 3 sections and left on continuously , 24/7, for over 6 months before it was powered off. I was not surprised to see the borders burnt into the screen. This type of use was not made for this set but could've been avoided by changing the display format of the borders and logos etc.

Hello all...Well, I never thought I was going to be at this site, typing in Yahoo Search, "Rear Projection TV Burn"....I am not sure if I have burn-in, and I know basically nothing about TV's, so you will have to forgive my newbness....

What I have is a 47 inch Hitachi, and in the lower right hand corner, there is what looks like three tiger stripes. I thought it was dust, but it seems to be inside the screen, and I can even see it when the TV is turned off...

Is this burn-in? And is there anything that can be done?

Pontiac,

It's a long thread, but may be worth your time to look through. Also, welcome to the forum. Lots of great info, all the experts are here, and newbs like us, and everyone in between.

Do the tiger stripes look like a station bug that you watch all the time? How old is the set? Did you turn down your contrast?

Chaz01

My set is about 3 years old, and I don't know what a station bug is (guessing it is the station logo?), and if that's the case then no...

Fortunately, the TV is still watchable, but my main question is can burn-in come in the form of three tiger stripe looking objects.

Burn in comes from static images. Whatever it is needs to be displayed in a fixed position on your screen in order to burn in. Burn in is not something that just pops up out of nowhere. If the "stripes" are "burn in", they're from something that was displayed in that position for an extended period of time.

Hi all:

I have a Toshiba 50" RP in my main viewing room. Unfortunately, due to very loud children, my wife likes to keep the closed captioning on all the time. After about 8 months, the black bars have burned into my screen. Arrgh!

I'm ready to buy a 34" tube TV for my basement. The primary use with be video gaming, but I expect that once I have a second HDTV, I'll spend my time down there watching sports and other programming my wife does not care to watch. I will also callibrate the set with Avia and try to vary the programming (as suggested in the master message in this thread).

I am considering either the Sony 34XBR960 or 34XS955. I currently have a 27" Sony SD TV. My son and I have used it heavily to play video games for the past two years. We have used it for at least two hours a day almost every day. I have not noticed any burn-in.

I've read the entire forum about burn-in, but have seen nothing that addresses the relative propensity of different CRT-based displays to exhibit burn-in. In my isolated case, it seems that the RP CRT was easily damaged, but my tube TV was less affected. Is there any evidence to support this theory? To be honest, the only thing keeping me from buying the TV this minute is my concern about burn-in. Can anyone allay my fears?

While I cannot quantitatively respond to your relative propensity question, my understanding is that direct display crt's are less likely to burn in because they do not run as "hot" and have a single crt as opposed to three (RGB).

Someone please chime in here. I need the help.

I have a Tosh 26" SD set that's probably about ten years old and doesn't have burn in, but I have to be very careful of my 11 month old RPTV.

I have a 55" Mitsu , one y/o and I have MSNTV 2 that I run all the time split (50/50 )screen with regular programing, so I can surf and graze...Multi-tasking...I was emailing a guy that said he had the same moniter and asked if I had any burn-in. I went to a screen with a light color picture and got that shiver down my back feeling as I could make out a faint line down the middle of the screen...I go to the UltimateTv group here all the time so I jumped over here to see what to do and have read almost all the posts on burn-in. So I backed down on the contrast...

Amone know if it is possible to change the screen with the sound to the right side ? Right now I run the Msntv on the right side and the programing on the left side.

Also have not seen anything about burn-in covered by an extended warranty. I have a 3 year extended on this TV.

I watch all other programing on strech but I do use the Tv on split-screen for 3-5 hours per day .....

Thanx for any comments and help.

teejay,

I know of no warranty that covers burn in. Just think about all the monitors/crt's that would have to be replaced!

I figured as much...What kinds of things happen to these units that will be covered by a warranty..

I read that the burn in is the phosporus ...

Is that something that is replaceable or is the TV through when that is burned in too bad?

The last big screen that I had was a 41" sony in 1984. It lasted 5 yrs .. and the tubes lost their vaccuum and I was told the TV is gone at that point.
Later on someone else told me that it could have been fixed... Anyone know about that?

Cost to replace the crt's at that point would probably be getting close to the cost of a new set.

I have a Toshiba 50H81 with burn-in as a result of closed captioning. If I reverse the colors of the captions from white text on black to black text on white, will that help remove the burn in? Or am I pretty much out of luck without spending a lot of money?

Originally posted by chaz01
Cost to replace the crt's at that point would probably be getting close to the cost of a new set.

I priced the replacement of the guns for my Mits WS55809 and it will cost $950 total.

I priced the replacement of the guns for my Mits WS55809 and it will cost $950 total.

May be worth it then. If the set is a Diamond series, don't they go for 3 or 4k?

Then again, if damage was done in one year due to viewing habits, the thousand dollar repair must be accompanied by a change in use.

I'm not familiar with these sets, except for their reputation. Personally, I'd replace the CRT's if it were 1/3 to 1/4 price of new, or, find someone else willing to, ask $1-2k for the set as is, take the $2-3k and put it towards something more suitable to viewing needs.

Originally posted by AFH
WHAT IS "BURN-IN"


IS THERE ANYTHING THAT CAN BE DONE TO CIRCUMVENT "BURN-IN"

Absolutely, the list is as follows:

1) Get your display "calibrated". . Alot of "damage" can be curtailed by dialing down the brightness and contrast from the get go.

3) Did I mention to dial down the contrast and brightness?

5) Dial down the contrast and brightness, are you getting this part yet?

7) TURN DOWN THE CONTRAST AND BRIGHTNESS OF THE DISPLAY. Sorry, but I firmly believe that this is crucial to preventing burn-in damage.


I just discovered this thread. I have owned my Sony KP-57WS510 since October of 2003. I was aware of the burn-in issue, and my solution has been almost the opposite of what I am seeing here. Let me explain, and if I'm wrong, tell me.

My thoughts are that burn-in is a differential aging problem, in the sense that a section of the picture has "aged" more than the rest of the picture. While I respect that reduced contrast and brightness are more protective of the set in 4:3 with black or gray side bars, I THINK THAT REDUCED CONTRAST AND BRIGHTNESS ARE LESS PROTECTIVE OF THE SET (with respect to burn-in) when viewing in 16:9.

I look at it this way. I want most of the age of my set to occur while I am viewing full screen (16:9) content. What better way to achieve this that to crank up the contrast and brightness when viewing 16:9. It's like artificial aging. With the contrast and brightness turned way up in 16:9, it's like you effectively turned a 50% 16:9 viewing ratio into a (for example) 75% 16:9 aging ratio.

Now I don't view anything like 50% 4:3 content. It's much less than that. And I don't advocate turning up contrast and brightness beyond what makes for a spectacular picture, even in a lighted room. And I'm pretty sure the set, even with increased contrast and brightness, will become obsolete before I wear it out (I'd love one of those 1080P sets).

So, in summary, turn down brightness and contrast when viewing 4:3 content pillar boxed, or when viewing letterboxed content, but crank up the contrast and brightness when viewing 16:9 content.

Does this contrary opinion make sense? Am I just 100% wrong ?

So, in summary, turn down brightness and contrast when viewing 4:3 content pillar boxed, or when viewing letterboxed content, but crank up the contrast and brightness when viewing 16:9 content.

Does this contrary opinion make sense? Am I just 100% wrong ? [/B]

I bought Avia's Guide to Home Theatre and adjusted my 57" widescreen TV so that I actually view movies the way they are supposed to be seen, as opposed to the showroom retina buring mode that you describe.

As for the letterboxing and such, I use the wide zoom mode for everything and for those few items that still have black bars I zoom the picture and just loose a little bit of the picture on the left and right sides.

In conclusion, I don't worry about burn in and I see the picture the way it's supposed to be viewed. The brightly lit room does present a minor annoyance, but I removed the protective/antiglare screen from my set and it makes a world of difference.

Hi,
I'm an early adopter who spent almost a year on this forum and others investigating all aspects of the buying and caring for CRT, RPTVs.

When I got my Tosh 65H80 in Oct 2000 (2001 model), it cost me $7000 Cdn. Due to taking the advice of also factoring into my budget the investment, (NOT COST) of an ISF calibration (almost every tweak imaginable) $600 Cdn, I still have an absolutely phenominal picture.

I have no idea where the contrast and brightness is set to, all I know is I've never touched the contoles and am happy to say that with an average of 8hrs a day of use including using it as a PC monitor to surf the net with my wife, game play and almost always 16 x 9 viewing, there isn't a hint of burnin.

The whole set may die in one collossal Poof, but as long as I can get CRT's cheaper than buying a new display of comparable size, I'll stick with what I've got.

I'm glad to see the advice to CRT owners and prospects is the same, BRIGHTNESS AND CONTAST, and I would reccommend the ISF route for piece of mind and BLACK BLACK'S

Peter M.

Originally posted by istvan
first post here. I have a Mistsubishi 55311 for a year or sow now and my son likes to watch Disney Channel, I would say an hour a day but is not everyday. Well I have the beautifull Mickey Mouse ears logo 24 x 7 now. what can I do?

Thanks

Ok, i know this is WAY after the time of istvans post but its very related. Got a 65 mits WS and have a nice set of mikey ears too. The set is about 3 years old.

I myself am going to write a letter to disney requesting they pay to repair or replace it. If that doesn't work. I have been toying with the idea of taking them to small claims court.

In case you too would like to try this.

Disney ABC Cable Networks Group
ATTN: Anne M. Sweeney (Co-Chairman, Disney Media Networks, The Walt Disney Company; President, Disney-ABC Television)
3800 W. Alameda Ave.
Burbank, CA 91505

Why is this post listed at the top of the Rear Projection Units thread. Is is still pertinent anymore. Most of the posts in this thread now deal with micro displays.

Is this information still pertinent. RP CRT's are still manufactured and still sold. Yes more people today have chosen to adopt micro display RP technology, due to size and convenience. Many people still prefer the picture of RP CRT's or they bought their RP CRT before the Microdisplays were available. And of course cost can be a factor. You can pick up a nice RP CRT for under $1000 these days. Being a home theater installer I still see rainbows whenever I look at any DLP unit. I install plenty of them, but I personally wouldn't own one. A properly calibrated RP CRT produces a quality picture that will last for years. I own 2 RP CRT's. One is over 5 years old with 0 burn in. It's had everything from 4:3 Playstation Original and now PS2, to cheap VHS and standard television signals, all the way through to my 16:9 High Def sources and D-VHS deck. It still looks great. And for those concerned with the potential for burn in, yes this thread is still very relevant.

Does the way Fox News, for example, animates their logo affect burn-in? Why don't these companies move their logo around, subtly, pixel by pixel and rotate corners? Is their a concerted effort to make the stations aware of this problem? I'm getting so afraid of this situation that my favorite cable news channel (MSNBC) may be relegated to my 13", 16 year-old bedroom TV.

Originally posted by JLP
Is this information still pertinent. RP CRT's are still manufactured and still sold. Yes more people today have chosen to adopt micro display RP technology, due to size and convenience. Many people still prefer the picture of RP CRT's or they bought their RP CRT before the Microdisplays were available. And of course cost can be a factor. You can pick up a nice RP CRT for under $1000 these days. Being a home theater installer I still see rainbows whenever I look at any DLP unit. I install plenty of them, but I personally wouldn't own one. A properly calibrated RP CRT produces a quality picture that will last for years. I own 2 RP CRT's. One is over 5 years old with 0 burn in. It's had everything from 4:3 Playstation Original and now PS2, to cheap VHS and standard television signals, all the way through to my 16:9 High Def sources and D-VHS deck. It still looks great. And for those concerned with the potential for burn in, yes this thread is still very relevant.

I understand that it is still pertinent to some but, I made a remark about this close to a month ago and no one replied until this week. Due to the inactivity it should not be up on the top of the list. I thought that the most popular threads where people were always replying was supposed to be on the top.

Well that's probably true. My guess would be it's one of those mysteries of the universe. A question a lot of people have but are afraid to ask. And when it does come up and people notice burn in, they want to find this information fast. If it's not right up front we'd see a bunch of smaller threads with inadequate information. That and it's probably one of the oldest threads and most commonly disscued items out there. A virtual timecapsule of infromation.

Originally posted by JLP
Well that's probably true. My guess would be it's one of those mysteries of the universe. A question a lot of people have but are afraid to ask. And when it does come up and people notice burn in, they want to find this information fast. If it's not right up front we'd see a bunch of smaller threads with inadequate information. That and it's probably one of the oldest threads and most commonly disscued items out there. A virtual timecapsule of infromation.

If this were true it would have more then 9 pages and it would not go 3 weeks without a single reply. If that many people had issues with burn in or were concerned about it they would be chiming in on this thread. Comparitively speaking, this thread should fade into oblivion. If someone needed to know something about burn in answered they should do a search or pose the question as a new thread.

I have noticed some burn in on my new tv (only 2 months old :( ) I can see the radar and ammo bars from halo, my question is, do i need to stop playing halo on the big screen because it will make the damage worsen, so i can see the spots more or will it be okay and the damage that has occured is done.


Thx.

As far as I can tell you the damage is done. You must be playing it a lot. If you keep playing it it will get worse. I also play games on my RPTV but I try to switch and keep the play time on each to a hour or two.

Be Coolll
Eric

Network Logos

A few Days ago Starz/Encore started using very prominent logos in the bottom right corner of their networks.

Question: How much of a concern is there in viewing channels with this logo issue?

btw (I have taken every precaution to prevent burn in. Lowered Contast and other settings from day one. Use Cinema Mode. Watch 4:3 in stretch mode (it doesn't bother me that much)...stretch 2:35 movies with DVD players settings to fill screen....) TV is PT-53X54J

What's up with those gigantic and bold encore logos????

I don't watch those channels because of them.

OK my damage's done...now i need to somehow get the set to be covered under the 3 yr warranty from Brandsmart...
Should I leave it on 24/7 and hope it melts down ??
55" Mit. 17 months young.
Anyone have a RP Mit. break and have it covered by warranty?

First, Are you EVIL enought. If so then are you willing to chance death you been warned. Remove back of Tv make sure you remember what screws go where and if they are marked. Go to the first CRT pull off the socket take some sort of power source. I myself might use a 12 volt battery and short out the CRT buy randomly touching pins on CRT neck. I am sure if you talk to the right person they could tell you what pins to short. This will ruin the CRT. put socket back on CRT, Put the Back back on the set and call for repair. I would do the CRT that has the worse burn in first. I think if you did all of them at once the repair man might suspect something. Have I done this? NO. But it should work but once again when messing with the inside of your TV there is lots of High Voltage in there just waiting to mess up your day.

Be Cooollll

Eric

I thought the burn in was on the inside of the "screen"..

That depends on what you consider the "screen". ON RPTV that use 3 CRT'S ( Red one, Blue one and Green one) the burn in happens on the CRT's The Screen that is on the front of the TV is nothing more than Basicly semi transparent plastic that the CRT's project on. It can not suffer burn in. I might of over simplfied this but that is the way I see it.

Be Cooolll

Eric

I bought Avia's Guide to Home Theatre and adjusted my 57" widescreen TV so that I actually view movies the way they are supposed to be seen, as opposed to the showroom retina buring mode that you describe.

As for the letterboxing and such, I use the wide zoom mode for everything and for those few items that still have black bars I zoom the picture and just loose a little bit of the picture on the left and right sides.

In conclusion, I don't worry about burn in and I see the picture the way it's supposed to be viewed. The brightly lit room does present a minor annoyance, but I removed the protective/antiglare screen from my set and it makes a world of difference.

Bogey62,

I know I run the real risk of sounding preachy, but if you are stretching or zooming in on the image you are NOT viewing movies the way they are supposed to be seen, no matter how well you have calibrated your set.

I owned a Toshiba 65h80 for 4 years with no discernible burn-in (thanks to proper calibration I assume). Now I own a 65h84 and am hoping for similar results using the same settings.

Burn-in is real, but sacrificing OAR has never entered my mind. I prefer to tune the contrast on the set as best I can for longevity's sake and enjoy the WHOLE picture in its CORRECT aspect ratio for as long as the set lasts.

I want to watch tv on one side and surf the net on the other. 55" Mits.

I didn't know about the contrast thing for the first 7 or 8 months.

I now have some burn in.

I have kept the contrast down since I found this group.

I have been using the split screen since the begining....... Would I have a burn in line down the middle if I had kept the contrast down , or was it inevitable using the split screen
as much as I do ,from the begining?

Hi,

I can't give you a definitive answer except to reiterate a couple of things.

The FAQ in this thread emphasizing the turning down of contrast and brightness is IMHO the bedrock of the whole Burn-in issue.

I have a 2001 Tosh 65H80 purchased Oct 2000, I have been using it for about 6hrs a day as a HDTV monitor a dvd monitor and a PC monitor.

The set was ISF'd shortly after 100hr breakin period and has had periodic tuneups.

With almost 5 yrs of abnormally heavy use I have no trace of burnin.

I hope that you can deduce from this and probably many other similar experiences that High contrast and brightness contributed to the burnin.

Also, my personal opinion is that long term split screen with any CRT unit regardless of C/B levels is playing with fire because the split is always in the same place.

Peter M.

Thanx for your feedback,,,Now what ?

Is it any harder to burn in the latest (last?) generation CRT RPTVs as opposed to the older sets? I'm tempted to keep this Mitsubishi WT-42315 since the picture is so nice. Other than the fact it's a big ugly silver box, it sure does have a nice picture. Burn-in is my only worry. I will not watch 4:3 stuff in streched mode.

Originally posted by mingus
I will not watch 4:3 stuff in streched mode. Then I would highly suggest a different technology than CRT. IMHO stretch on a smaller set like this (especially with the excellent non-linear stretch modes) is a non-issue. I too was a I will "never stretch" guy, but got used to it pronto on my 57".

I agree with the above poster. You are setting yourself up for a high $ disappointment. You can rest assured that you will have burn in . I give you about a year before its so bad that it will be easy to see while watching 16X9 content.

hmm.. ok, so what is going to come close to this picture and have no chance of burn-in? shoud I be looking at a new DLP RPTV?

Some CRT HDTVs have option(s) for altering the black sides to compensate for any possible burn-in problems. My Philips allowed me to alter the black side bands to different shades of light black to light gray.

I paced my aspect-ratio watching habits and had the set ISD'd with no resultant burn-in problems over 2 1/2 years.

Well there is DLP, D-ILA, SXRD/LCOS or LCD. You could still go with the CRT if you alter your viewing habits. Stretch the 4:3. Most of the TV makers now have stretches that leave the center if the image alone and only extends the sides so there is very little distortion. Another is if you don't watch a lot of 4:3 content, say 15% of total viewing time and keep your contrast and brightness set low.

If you search on here you'll see that I too was 100% opposed to stretching. Well, I have had my 46H84 RPCRT for about three weeks and you know what? The stretching isn't a big deal at all. And it's really a small price to pay for the AMAZING picture I get from DVDs and HDTV. The Toshibas (and others I'm sure) have much improved stretching from the old days when stretching meant everyone looking short and fat and baseballs looking like ovals. In fact, I have to admit that even if I had a DLP or LCD and burn-in was not an issue, I think I'd still stretch because it just looks better filling the whole screen. Holy crap, I can't believe I just said that!!

Originally posted by xwilliam
If you search on here you'll see that I too was 100% opposed to stretching. Well, I have had my 46H84 RPCRT for about three weeks and you know what? The stretching isn't a big deal at all. And it's really a small price to pay for the AMAZING picture I get from DVDs and HDTV. The Toshibas (and others I'm sure) have much improved stretching from the old days when stretching meant everyone looking short and fat and baseballs looking like ovals. In fact, I have to admit that even if I had a DLP or LCD and burn-in was not an issue, I think I'd still stretch because it just looks better filling the wholse screen. Holy crap, I can't believe I just said that!!

MY HD Tuner doesn't seem to have a strech mode that works - at least I haven't figured it out yet.

Let me tell you guys that are really bothered by the way 4:3 materal looks streched that you really should give it a chance. I was the same way but after about 2 weeks I dont even notice it. The best way is to use the option that will stretch the sides more then the center, at first it might seem kind of warped but I promise you wil get used to it.

just my 2 cents

JVC HD-61Z585 manual (http://books.jvcservice.com/download/978104750/33643.pdf), Page 7

10. ILA element characteristics

Do not project still images or pictures that have still segments for long periods of time. The still parts of the picture may remain on the screen. This is a characteristic of ILA elements and not a malfunction. The picture will disappear over time.
The same manual has a warning against "burn-in" on page 5 which has been suggested in this thread to have come from a CRT television and was accidentally left in the manual. It's in both versions of this manual on JVC's support site, however, and this page 7 warning says something specifically for the ILA quite distinctly.

Best I can guess, if ILA really does not suffer from burn-in, is that the "over time" clause means a very SHORT time, but that the manual editor took to be CRT-like permanent burn-in.

Either way, can anyone give any insight as to what this temporary ghost effect is about? How noticeable is it? How often does it happen? How fast does it self-correct?

Thanks. :)

Hi,

In 2001 & 02, I watched quite a bit of unstretched 4:3 without any negative effects. Now that I have a HD decoder/PVR from my cable company it seems that this box has it's own modes of stretch and zoom that seem to render the picture size modes on my Tosh 65H80 useless.

I've read somewhere that lighter shades like grey (it seems CBS Detroit uses it) will be less harmful. My Tosh has grey bars if it's not connected to my cable box and when I first got the set the grey bothered me so much that I bought black Artist paper and cut it to the size of the bars. Whenever I wasn't watching a dvd, I would put this paper (almost like cardboard) on the frame to cover the bars. I used velcro which allowed the install to be quick. The diagonal 4:3 picture was 53" so from 10 1/2' and since I had just moved up from a 27" picture I was still pretty happy.

Now that I have the HD PVR 90% of all tv we watch is recorded HD. I'm now starting to get pissed if I have to watch something live and can't FF through the commercials.

BTW something that (aside from a dazzeling picture) might make you feel even better about buying a CRT is the life of the guns.
I was reading a UK A/V mag last week which had the life expectancy of the different technologies. Plasma was at the bottom at 6-8 yrs the others 8-10 and CRT the least expensive was 12 yrs +. Apparantly the UK is going to be getting HD in 2006 so all this HT info is becoming more immediate.

My choice was easy, CRT was the only game in town in 2000.

Peter M.

i have a mits 65711, i have had repair problems and tweeter is going to replace it with the model 65815. i have always worried about burn in , and was going to ask if i could get 'dlp' model instead. which is a better tv, rpcrt or dlp? meaning PQ, and overall quality. not sure if dlp technology is developed enough to compare with rpcrt,s. please give me some opinions

Hi,

Although the only thing I've owned has been a CRT which I've used for TV, Games,DVDs and a computer monitor for the last 5 yrs burnin has never been on my mind due to the fact that the set was ISF'd from the get go.

On the negative side it is HUGE and will dominate any room it is in. If you do not have a designated room that is used almost soley for MEDIA you may want to think of something more attractive.

On the positive side it's the least expensive and arguably gives the best PQ of all of the technologies when properly calibrate. CRT units need more calibration than most but make up for the cost of that in their low price in comparison to other technologies. As I mentioned before they also live longer.

If I had to choose again I would pick CRT again.

Peter M.

thanks for info. i keep tv in basement so size is not an issue. PQ is most important and i love PQ of crt's, i was just a little worried @ burn in. i had 65711 for a couple years and had no problems with burn in. prob just stay with crt. thanks again. how long do you wait to get tv isf'd and is there any time frame on how long calibrate last before you have to have it isf'd again

Hi,

The breakin period is between 100 and 200hrs. I have had 1 very minor tuneup after 3 years and my ISF'r was supprised at how little any of the settings had wandered during that time. The only real adjustments that were made was a slight tweaking of the two component inputs due to change of dvd player and cable box.

I have no idea what the actual contast and brightness settings are because after the calibration he set everything to 50% in case I wanted to putts with the settings it would be easy to remember the original values.

If you have your set done and your HT is safe from pets and ankelbiters, I would also reccomend reversing or removing the reflective screen.

Peter M.

Does the "Auto Pixel Shift" and similar technologies in Samsung TV's / Other Manufs. really prevent Burn-In totally?

So, any ideas on how to remove burn-in caused by closed-captioning?

Hi,
I remember reading about some tricks that actually create a reverse burnin where a very strong color at high brightness and contrast is put on top of the burnin lines for a period of time causing them to fade somewhat.

I'm not sure if this is actually works and have no idea how to do it. However if anyone knows how its Michael Chen aka "Michael TLV" one of the top ISF'rs in North America. This type of question might be answered by him or other well known calibrators in the HDTV forum section of www.keohi.com.

If you visit the site you'll find entrance to the HT portion at the bottom of the page.
Theres also lots of other technical info that might be helpful.

Peter M.

I have a question about burn-in. I know burn-in is a problem with rear projection CRT displays and Plasmas.

I have read that burn-in is not a problem on LCD displays.

My question is, what about rear projection LCDs? Are they burn-in resistant similar to LCD's?

Finally, what about rear projection DLP's?

My new (to me) Mitsubishi WS-73711 came with a logo burn (bought it REALLY cheap from a client). Looks like a CNN logo-ticker combo across the bottom of the screen, really noticeable on light colored screens.

The burn is light yellow in color.

My question is: If I white flood the set to even it out, are all the whites going to show up as a sickly yellow color on the screen?????

If so, I think I will just live with the burn in. I will take a light yellow streak over everything having a sepia tone to it.

Thanks

Rich

My new (to me) Mitsubishi WS-73711 came with a logo burn (bought it REALLY cheap from a client). Looks like a CNN logo-ticker combo across the bottom of the screen, really noticeable on light colored screens.

The burn is light yellow in color.

My question is: If I white flood the set to even it out, are all the whites going to show up as a sickly yellow color on the screen?????

If so, I think I will just live with the burn in. I will take a light yellow streak over everything having a sepia tone to it.

Thanks

Rich

That's an awesome TV. I own the WS-65611.

How cheap did you get it for?

I paid $750 for it and another $90 to have it professionally moved to my house. It is two years old and was used for less then 6 months. Due to the owners death and subsequent sale of his estate it sat unused in an empty house for quite a while. The new owner of the home is the one who sold it to me. We are upgrading all the audio and video in the house.

I just found out that his death might be the cause of the burn in. Rumor has it that he passed away in the living room (where this set was located) and his demise was not noticed for a few days.

Even with the logo burn, I am still very happy with it.

:eek: that's a bit creepy, I hope the tv isn't haunted. It would give new meaning to the term "ghosting."

That's why I continually set my sleep timer on my set. That way if I die in my theater, at least the next owner won't have burn in. I'm thoughtful that way.

Mark

That's why I continually set my sleep timer on my set. That way if I die in my theater, at least the next owner won't have burn in. I'm thoughtful that way.

Mark

Now *that* is funny!

What would be really cool is if they could develop a sensor that would detect how much the phosphors are worn in what positions and compensate for burn-in by projecting a brighter image in the exact positions where there's more wear. Of course, I'm guessing if they ever made something like that it would be really expensive...

What would be really cool is if they could develop a sensor that would detect how much the phosphors are worn in what positions and compensate for burn-in by projecting a brighter image in the exact positions where there's more wear. Of course, I'm guessing if they ever made something like that it would be really expensive...

I am sure they could and the cost would not be that great. The problem is they don't want you to have that set to long because it would hurt sales. Aso it would have to function as a extra on the menu when the set is not being watch. SO if you had a burn is on one spot of the TV and changed channels to a something different the spot with the burn in would be brighter. .


Eric

Hi everybody, This is my first post. I read about 90% of this thread and still have some questions. I just purchased a JVC AV-56P575 for $1299 at Circuit City. I need this tv to last as long as it can, due to money. I currently have the brightness and contrast set to 0. The image was amazing watching Shrek 2 last night. What are the best settings to use?

Also, I watch hours of 4:3 content in the side stretch mode. I have a ton of DVD's in 1.85 so it fits the screen perfectly. How bad is the harm of watching a 2.35 with the bars on top and bottom if I am watching tons of stretched content before and after the movie?

Any other tips are welcome. This tv is only 2 days old :)
Thanks in advance.

:) Well from what I can tell as long as you keep things mixed up. some 4:3, games, 16:9, things should be all right. You only run into trouble when you start watching the same thing over and over again. Also be carefull on how your set handles power outages, or misssing input source. My old Sony when the power was out and came back on the input is was on would be displayed and stayed displayed untill the set was turned off or the input was active again. This kind of situation could result in screen burn if left for a long time.

be Coolllll :D

Eric

Are there any physical in-line devices that will start screensavers after a period of inactivity? If so what is it called? Where do I get it? How much? Will it interfere with the regular signal (degrading said signal)?

Thanks,
captkirk

I'm looking at the Samsung HLR5668W Power Buy, but I'm concerned that it may be too big since we only have a 7-foot viewing distance. Will the 56" be too much? Will there ever be a 50-inch screen available?

Hi Jack,

Due to the major increase in Picture Quality of HD and progscan dvd shorter viewing distances are quite acceptable particularly if you have the set ISF'd including removal or reversal of the reflective screen.

I'm 10.5' from 65" and I could easily move up a couple of feet. It only really becomes an issue for people way over on the corners, but if you and someone that smells okay are on the couch it should be great.

Peter M.

Peter:

Thanks for the encouraging reply. But what does "have the set ISF'd" mean? And what, exactly, would removal or reversal of the reflective screen accomplish? (And is the screen readily removable/ reversible by a non-techie user like myself?)

Jack

Hi Jack,
This thread deals with burnin, (and how to avoid it) on the tecnologies prone to that.

ISF (Imaging Science Foundation). HDTV's particularly crt types come from the factory un calibrated. Technicians licenced by this group use expensive scopes that go way beyond the capabilities of DVD's like AVIA and DVE which the ISF techs also use as part of their kit to make sure you get the best picture and that your set lives to it's proper lifespan.

Unfortuneately many people judge a set by what they see on the floor at the store. The picture you see there has no comparison to what it will look like after its calibrated properly.

My suggestion is read magazines like HDTV and join forums like this one and do searches on specific issues.

I'm not saying don't take advantage of the power buy, I have know idea if its a good deal or not. You should also add a few hundred dollars to your budget for a proper calibration if you really care about picture quality.

Peter M.

Do many of you burn-in savvy folks (with a contrast in the low 30s or 40s) find it painful when people with RPTVs say their contrast is at 100? :(

I went to a friend's and his roommate had his 57F510's contrast up to 98...so sad :(

He'll learn, haha

Hi,

You might have to learn this the hard way but your enthusiasm for helping these people by encouraging them to trun down to at least 50, B & C may become antagonistic.

After that, unless their bills become your bills, your conscience should be clear.

I've had an ISF Calibrator tell me that after just being paid $400, he watched his client turn up the brightness on his set through the livingroom window as he was pulling out of the driveway.

I organized an ISF'rs original trip from Calgary to Toronto back in Feb 2001 and he's since become a friend and still comes twice a year with 20 to 30 sets to do.
Invariably there are a couple of call backs where the client irreversibly screwed up the work that had been done and need a call back.

I don't know what the actual settings on my set are but it shows 50% for everything incase I have the urge to fool around I can always come back to that.

Peter M.

Does the default on the Mitsu 55" cause the brightness to go to 100% ?

I accused the kids of screwing with my settings .. I don't know if someone sat on the remote or what .....

I think the default is 100% for brightness on Mits sets

Stupid Noob Question:

With an OTA Antenna some HD programming still has those black bars on the sides even with the TV set to fullscreen. Since their from the network does that still mean I could get "burn in" on the screen? By the way it is a Sony WS550.

Thanks for the info.

Hi,

I subscribe to cable but the issue is the same, except for perhaps PBS which always broadcasts in 16/9 but not always HD. The HD channels you are recieving OTA do not always broadcast in HD so you couuld in fact have bars on the sides because it's not in HD (which is always 16/9) and it was shot in 2:35 showing bars on the top and botton. The picture would be in the center of the screen framed in black.

If you can turn the contrast and brightness to 50% and the sharpness to about 12 there should be no problem. If your tv also allows you to set the side bars to light grey it would even be better.

Peter M.

OK... I just found some minor burn in images on my Mits 65413 which is about 2 years old now. :( The burn in images are from playing Halo2 on the XBOX. It is the ammo HUDs on top of the screen and the radar/health bar on the bottom that have burned in. For the game input I am using, I had calibrated it via Avia and upped the contrast and brightness up a couple of notches from Avia's recomendations to see more clearly in the game as some of the levels are fairly dark. Well about a month or so ago, the new map packs came out for Halo2, in which one of the levels "Warlock" was very dark on my screen so I upped the contrast even more. I don't remember the exact setting that Avia had recommended, but I believe I was in the upper 20s for contrast. But after teaking the game input to my liking I was in the 34s and thought that was safe. =(

I play Halo2 quite a bit, at least 2-3 hours a day on my set and watch SD Tivo on it utiling the Stretch Plus mode to cover the entire screen. When movies are played, far and between now, they remain in their true aspect ratio. But Halo2 for the past few months have probably accounted about 80% of this TV's usage.

When viewing full screen images from HD or SD, you can't tell the burn in is there unless the area is highlighted in white.If you have a static color block on the screen on the screen, you can see the Halo2 HUD on the screen as well. :(

I have a modded xbox where I accidently left a static homebrew menu screen on the Mits for probably about 6-8 hours a few months ago (maybe a year now). I came home horrified thinking I just ruined my set since the menu utilized a lot of white around its menu modules. But to my surprise, no signs of burn in after that fiasco. That was before upping the contrast the second time so I was probably around 30 for my contrast then.

The TV just finished a Halo2 marathon weekend so maybe the burn in is being more pronounced now than before because of the recent use. Anyways, I downloaded the Nokia monitor test and will hook up the HTPC to the set to see if that will help it tomorrow. I'm also leaving the set on overnight and set the Tivo to record various different channels to see if that will help phase out the burn in images.

My Mitsu is almost 2 yrs old ... I use split screen a lot and on light shots in sd or hd I can see the line down the middle....I use MSNTV on the right side and watch tv with the sound on the left side...Anyone know if that would cause the right side to burn in worse...AS I have noticed that the text on web sites is clearer if I put the MSNTV on the left side.....???

I noticed today on my 53" Panasonic HDTV, SciFi logo burned into the bottom right corner, makes me sick. I can only see it when the screen is totally white, but I know its there and the thought of it drives me nuts. My brightness is set to 30 out of a possible 63, sharpness is set at 30 of a possible 63, and picture is set at 30 of a possible 63. Im at a complete loss... I know I watch Sci Fi a lot, but had no idea I watched enough to actually burn their logo into my tv.

Hollow, How old is your pany ?

Gotta be about three years old by now. Like I said, I can barely see the SciFi logo if the screen goes white, but I still know its there now, and I stew about stuff like that.

I didn't realize, until I checed out this site, that the brightness and contrast contribute to burn in.
I turned down the settings and then thats when I realized that the default setting on the Mitsu was full 100% brightness....So the whole year before I found this site my brightness was probably full on .....

I didn't realize, until I checed out this site, that the brightness and contrast contribute to burn in.
I turned down the settings and then thats when I realized that the default setting on the Mitsu was full 100% brightness....So the whole year before I found this site my brightness was probably full on .....

Same here..I'll have to be sure to be more careful nowadays, esp. w/ playing Metal Gear Solid--wouldn't want FourDour's burn-in to be in vain... sorry four door...at least you got some good gaming in on the tube!

So about this whole burn in issue.

I am totally paranoid now about getting a DLP tv.

Is the burn in issue so bad that I can't even watch TV normally? People are saying how even stuf like the Sci-Fi channel logo has been burnt into their screen. With these TVs do I need to change the channel every hour or so and be afraid to ever watch a channel with a still image?

I guess that also means video games are totally out of the question, right?

LordZero: DLP TV's do not suffer from burn-in. CRT's and Plasmas do.

Hi all, just finished reading this thread and thought I'd post my thoughts.

First, I have a Toshiba TW65H80 from 1999, the first high def capable RPTV from them. I have done a number of things including calibration, removal of the protective glare shield, and some repairs of small problems that have come up.

I watch a variety of programming including broadcast, Satellite, HD, and DVD. Some of this content has black bars such as 2.35 DVD or local HDTV content that is 4:3 but forces the TV to full mode where they supply the black (or gray) bars.

I have noticed a number of people who won't watch the stretch mode for 4:3 material on their 16:9 TV's. I have no such problem and part of that (IMO) is because the Toshiba sets have the best stretch mode around. The most common complainers in this thread own Hitachi or Mitsubishi sets. For those two brands, I don't blame them. A friend of mine has a 65" Mits and even I can't watch the stretch mode on that TV. So part of the problem might be the type of stretch the TV (or STB) provides. I can say that in the 6+ years I've owned this TV, not one person who has come over to watch with me has ever noticed the stretch mode until I set the TV to normal and asked about it. If you're a purist and must watch all content in it's original aspect ratio, then you have no choice (I have no problem with that either, it's a personal choice).

Burn in is the differential aging of the phosphors in the 3 CRT's (talking CRT based RPTV only here).

Once burned in, there are very limited solutions available. I'd like to address a couple of the ones that have been suggested in this thread.

1) Alternating white/black pattern. This will have NO effect on burn in. The phosphors in the CRT's will be subjected to aging (white) and no aging (black) in a uniform manor resulting in all phosphors in the tubes aging the same amount. Therefore, any difference between two given areas will remain the same (IE: where the burned in logo is and where it isn’t or where the bars where and the center, etc.).

2) Using a reverse image to age everything back to the same. This should work if you have the equipment and can EXACTLY match the reversed image on the set with the burned image.

3) What would I do if mine were to burn in? I would purchase three new tubes and replace them. For my set, they are $183.40 each (Vance Baldwin Electronics). There is a fair amount of work involved in the replacement, but it can be done and is still cheaper than replacing the entire set.

4) Logo burn in. This was/is a very annoying concern for all of us and I have participated in two letter (email) writing campaigns that have had success and one that didn't. I and many other members of this forum wrote letters to PBSU and to the National Geographic Channel asking that if they must show a logo, could they at least make it transparent and/or subtle. We explained the whole burn-in issue and what the sets costs, etc. Both of those station bugs are MUCH better today as a direct result of that campaign. Two individuals have complained about the Disney channel's logo; I would recommend starting a thread on that specific issue and getting an email or letter campaign going.

I have been reading up on the newest display technology lately and was pretty happy to read in two different reviews of available technology that CRT based displays still offer the best picture when properly calibrated, so I plan to stick with my CRT based RPTV. That is not to say that others may feel differently or that non CRT based displays might be the ones that you find the best. All the technologies are producing excellent images these days and are getting better every year.

I would not avoid a particular display technology based solely on burn-in issues. I would go and review all that is available display wise and buy what I liked the best. Then calibrate and consider your viewing habits appropriately.

Ok wow.7 month after the date of purchase ( 1rst february),i just notice my first BURN IN!!! :( .Yop On my new Hitachi 46F510, i now have a burn in of "LCN" right in the bottom left corner of the screen, and since i notice it, i just cant stop looking at it.

I have email hitachi waiting got a positive response to know if they can replace, fix this probleme, and i really think not, and i didnt receive any answer yet :(

Im piss.Seriously.Iv spend with taxes about $1800 and now i have a wonderful burn-in.

Any tips you can give me to try to remove it?I tried "magical focus" and it didnt do anything.

But just to know like that, is a television like that can be resold??( the burn in is still minor, but its noticeable if you look carefuly.)I am considering trying to sell it back, by letting know the buyer about the problem, at let say, half the price like?( im thinking about letting it go at $800 CAN like) and purchase a CRT Tube 32 wega (the hi scan version KV32HS420).Would people still buy that, even for the minor burn in?

Thanks in advance....frustrated customer... :(

Can't comment on the resale value, but my folks have the 32" Sony you mentioned and the PQ is very good.

Good luck.

Nice set up Roger.. I play hockey right down the Pike from Okeeheelee

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6287724&&#post6287724


Although it is not "burn in" it is important to know.

Hi Guys,

I have a 5 yr old Tosh 65H80 with about 13000 hrs on it. It is used for everythng including as my primary PC monitor.

I had it ISF'd from the get go. Everything was fine until a few months ago when I noticed some "raster ringing" (looks like reverse C wrinkles in flesh tones).

I had my ISF guy Michael TLV (Michael Chen) re scope it. He noticed that the convergance was way off. This was probably contibuted to by creating new T & R rezes using "Powerstrip" directly on my HDTV rather than on my regular PC monitor and then moving them to the TV when they work.

Anyway, he re-calibrated it and it looks brand new.

This long story comes with a suggestion. Please visit www.keohi.com (the HDTV section access is at the botton of the home page)

This is a hangout for some of the best ISF'rs in North America and there is a forum that they answer questions in.

These guys may know of ways to min imize the burnin you are seeing and give you pointers on how not to make it worse.

Good luck,
Peter M.

i hate burn-in

I've been researching TVs for the past few weeks as I am making a purchase soon and I've narrowed it down to a CRT and a LCD RP. The two are the Hitachi 51F710 and a Sony 50" A10.

I love the PQ of CRTs over LCDs, I do a lot of PC Gaming and my work comp LCD doesn't even compare to my 21" CRT on my gaming PC. The only problem is I tend to game up to 8 hours straight some days if a game is good enough. If I were to get a TV I'd be doing 85% gaming, 10% DVDs and 5% cable.

Does burn in only occur if you are careless and happen to pause a game for like 5 hours or could it occur with just normal gaming? The HUD will dissapear and reload when the game loads so it won't be up for a whole 8 hours but a significant portion of the time it would be.

I'm leanind toward the LCD due to this one issue but if any of you game fanatics out there have an old CRT that is constantly gamed on tell me your experience with it :)

EDIT: I've been browsing through the thread some more and read the accounts of things like the Ghost Recon scope being burned in and such. I also hate stretching images so as much as I think the CRT PQ is better than LCD I guess I'm going with a Sony LCD.

Hi Deus,

I'm not a gamer but I do use my CRT Tosh 65H80 as my primary PC desktop.

It has about 13000hrs on it now and aside from making sure a screen saver is incurred after about 20min, I'm not doing anything special.

Back in 2001 they said have your set properly ISF'd, don't touch the brightness and contrast after its calibrated and you shouldn't have any problems aside from having the convergence tweaked every 3 or 4 years.

I followed those instructions and am BURNIN FREE.

If my TV was not in a diesignated room (since it's size dominates) I might consider the other technologies, but as long as repairing it is cost effective when the guns finally go, the only other display I might consider would be front projection.

Peter M.

is there a threat of burn in on the SXRS's ????

Hi,

Just got a 57" RPCRT, and am very concerned about the burn in. I've read through this and several other sites about the ways to avoid it, and still have one question.

I understand the concern about high contrast leading to early burn in (making the brights brighter). I also understand that brightness and contrast are related to a certain extent.

However, I don't understand why the brightness setting (assuming the contrast is constant) should have any effect in burn in. If increasing the brightness just makes the darks a bit brighter -- if it's too high, it may make the pic seem a bit washed out, but I can't see why it would make burn in more likely.

So in these discussions, is it enough to concentrate on making sure that the contrast settings are correct, or do both settings really matter?

Thanks

Okay, I'm not really sure if this is burn-in or not. I have one of those Samsung 30" slimfit CRT TVs. I have no idea how many hours I've watched on it; I bought it a few months ago. I watch 16x9 movies, 2.35:1 movies, and 4x3 TV as well, though I sometimes use stretch and sometimes use the side black bars, depending on what it is. Animation doesn't usually look too bad when stretched as live action would for some reason.

Here's the problem; last night I noticed what might or might not be burn-in, while watching Pitch Black. Its on the very right side of the screen, kind of like a stripe, but not really, more like sort of a long oval. It only appears when the area of that screen is completely black, and otherwise I don't see it at all, and I also don't see it when the TV is turned off either. When it is completely black in that area of the screen, what it looks like is sort of a glare that you might see from sunlight shining against the screen. I'm thinking it might have been from the side-bars from watching 4x3 content; however, the other side of the screen does not have this at all, and both would have been exposed to exactly the same conditions. I've also fooled around with the display sizes on my TV and put up the side black bars, but don't see this when the side black bars are present. So I'm not really sure if it actually is burn-in, or if its just some weird thing that I never really noticed before.

With RP CRT's it is always" burning in" when the set is on. On a white screen its just burning evenly. If you leave a stationary image on the screen its now burning in unevenly.
So if you leave most any image on the screen its" burning in". Leaving a white screen on the set for hours just lowers the life of the CRT's and burns the phosphors (evenly however)
The picture gets dimmer over time and lowers the life of the CRT's

Watching a normal TV picture with no stationary images, it has a very slow "burn in" and the CRT's may last 8-10 yrs. or more.

my dad watched 4 hours of fox news every day, so he got a very bad "live" and a huge fox logo burned into the set. the brightness and contrast was set down to below 20. he would never change his viewing habits for the tv as this is his living room and only tv over 20 inches. the tx was a 56 inch toshiba, and is not sitting in my garage unused it was replaced by a sony LCD projection.

Owned the tv for two years.

This tv was probably produced in mid 03, started using it in jan 2004.

It has the grey bars, and the brightness etc. was all set below half.

so it took two years to get to this point, which is horrible IMO

Sony 57 inch.

this sucks. can i even out the wear somehow? I would like to get another year out of this POS>


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/ankur/DSCF0996.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/ankur/DSCF1000.jpg

That's diseased, Dude. Bad luck.

Do you think I should try to even out the wear?

or can it not be done?

Do you think I should try to even out the wear?

or can it not be done?

You'd need to reverse the image some how and theoretically play it for the same amount of time as caused the bars, which after a couple of years is thousands of hours.

Sorry, but I don't think it can be done practically.

Would replacing the green tube fix the problem? or not worth it?

carbnjunkie,
Ouch! I'm sorry for your troubles. I think that replacing the green tube would be very expensive, and it might not be worth it.
Did that burn-in just appear overnight, or did you see it happening gradually? I like to watch a lot of older films and I don't like stretching the picture, and so far I don't see any evidence of burn-in after two and a half years of use(I have a 47" Panny). I have my brightness set to 19, and contrast to 18, so I don't think I'm overdriving the tubes.

It was overnight. And I hate streching my 4.3 too, but I dont think that was the cause, im really dumbfounded. I would say 70 precent of the viewing I do is in 4.3.

The tv still does work, and if Im watching CNBC, or another show with dark screens, its fine. or keep it on 4.3, but that is going to make the problem worse.

Remedy to burn in:
If you can connect your PDP or RPTV to a computer, there is a program that is used by most manufacturers to try to 'fix' a burned in image.
The program is NTEST.exe from Nokia, You want to run the high voltage pattern on this test pattern program for about an hour or so and this should reduce or eliminate your existing burn in.

The premise of this program is similar to running a full white screen; but the act of toggling between dark/white screens ensures that you are running at a maximum voltage mode which 'drives' out burned in particles.


Has anybody tried this technique ?

Thanks,

Sade

Thanks for the info in this thread. It helped me clear up some light burn in and I definitely know how to prevent it in the future now.

I bought a plasma two days ago and fell asleep last night with a DVD on. I woke up about four hours later with the menu screen slightly burned in. I used the "snow technique" for about 45 minutes today and it did clean up the burn in.

Just thought I'd let everyone know that it worked in the event that someone else, like me, has to learn the hard way about observing proper viewing habits. :rolleyes:

Hello, I have had a crt rear projection HDTV for a little under a year now. I play a lot of video games and want to reduce my chances of burn-in as much as possible. I generally will play 1 or 2 missions or levels in a game, then switch games or go back to tv for a while. I'm hoping this is enough to help me avoid burn in. I also make sure to stretch or zoom 4:3 content to fill the screen. my tv doesn't have a "contrast" but it has a "picture" setting which I assume is the same. I keep the picture setting at around 35-40% and the brightness around 50. Sometimes I'll increase one or the other if a particular game or movie is too dark.

Hopefully these things are enough. My last tv was rpcrt as well and the static parts of the HUD for the game Halo in 4 player split screen mode became burned in. I didn't notice it most of the time unless a very light color or white image was on the screen. Although with that tv, my friends and I played that game almost every night for 5-6 hours or more and nothing like that happens to my new tv.

Hi John,

As far as tweakable menus, you CRT tv has a whole bunch that you cannot access.

I've had a Tosh 65H80 since Oct 2000. I use it as a PC, TV, and DVD player. It is on about an average of 6.5 hrs a day 7 days a week.

When I was researching this purchase which was about $7000CDN at that time. I was fortuneate enough to run into a site called www.keohi.com (hdtv section).

If you haven't heard of either the site or the importance of ISF Calibration (isf.com) before, particularly for CRT units I would run to this site and do some reading as well as find a "reputable tech" in your area and have your set optimized. (It will look like a different tv).

Aside from making you tv the envy of all your friends (no matter what they have) you will be protected from BURNIN.

I have just read the latest Christmas crop of AV Mags which discuss all the technologies. When it comes to CRTs Pros & Cons. The Pros are, 1)provides the best picture available from all technologies when properly calibrated. 2) At todays prices the most unbeleivable bargain out there.

The Cons are. 1) Very low WAF (wife acceptance factor) due to the fact that a large one like my 65" Tosh will dominate any room its in. If you buy a direct view 32'-36" its not an issue.

If you can designate a Media Room, (hdtv/pc(icl games), dvds, music) that won't interfere with things like having guests over for dinner and having to apologize for that ugly monster in the living room then you have it made.

Anyway, protect and optimize your investment by having it calibrated. Its well worth the couple of hundred bucks you'll pay. If you have a large screen rptv that can be protected from animals and youn childeren, I enthusiastically recommend reversing the screen stacks. Behind that shiney screen that you see the lamp beside you's reflection in, theres a non reflective matte screen behind it. Having your ISF tech reverse them while he's doing a mechanical focus on your red/green/blue guns. Thats when he loosens the wingnuts keeping the guns in place and through the use of an expensive scope and a piece of string, he tightens the focus of each gun to the center which makes it much tighter than done at the factory. To do this he has to unscrew the screen housing which is a good time to reverse the stacks.

Anyway, I hope I've peaked your interest in doing more than preventing Bunin.

Peter M.

We noticed even if we watched a 16:9 format movies (such as DVDs", there are still black bars on the top and bottom. Do I need to worry about the burn-in for our TV (it's Toshiba 51" CRT RPTV). Thank you for your help.

Hi,

Most Movie Directors film in the 2:35 aspect ratio. This puts black bars on the top and bottom. They are supposed to be there and some dvd boxes actually say that on the back of the box. Please don't stretch the picture to fill the screen it's like adding gingerale to a single malt scotch.

Unfortuneately if you have a 4:3 tv which puts black bars on the sides, a 2:35 film would have black bars all around it.

Older movies that were converted for wide screen tvs were done in 1:78 or 1:85 which will fill the whole screen of a 16:9 tv.

If your worried about burnin with those black bars don't. The best thing for your tv is to have it ISF calibrated (www.isf.com) and while waiting for the tech to show up, turn the brightness and contrast down to 50%. Making the room the tv is in as dark as possible will also help.

Peter M.