Originally posted by moyekj
... This was the latest email I got:
"...We have been told that these issues are in every Motorola HD-DVR across
the U.S., not just with Cox or in the Cox system. ..."
Not quite so. I'd like to point out that Motorola's other two-tuner HD-DVR, the BMC9012 with Moxi has been in commercial deployment since May and both tuners have been working since day one. It's not on the Cox system yet, but subscribers on Adelphia and Charter are able to record two HD shows simultaneously while playing back a third.

I think worst case scenario if it IS a hardware limitation, they'll either limit the HD recording to one tuner only, or put it back to a single tuner until they get it figured out. I would say that the likelihood of the box itself not being able to record from both tuners is very low, I mean Motorola will be in a REAL bad situation if that turns out to be the case because they sold a product under false pretenses so I'm certain they'll do anything and everything to make sure the box delivers as promised if they want to remain competitive in this market...
Tom

Originally posted by MoxiGuy
Not quite so. I'd like to point out that Motorola's other two-tuner HD-DVR, the BMC9012 with Moxi has been in commercial deployment since May and both tuners have been working since day one. It's not on the Cox system yet, but subscribers on Adelphia and Charter are able to record two HD shows simultaneously while playing back a third.

I think the person simply meant all 6412s - they probably don't even know that Motorola has another HD-DVR box.

Originally posted by d2tw4all
I think worst case scenario if it IS a hardware limitation, they'll either limit the HD recording to one tuner only, or put it back to a single tuner until they get it figured out. I would say that the likelihood of the box itself not being able to record from both tuners is very low, I mean Motorola will be in a REAL bad situation if that turns out to be the case because they sold a product under false pretenses so I'm certain they'll do anything and everything to make sure the box delivers as promised if they want to remain competitive in this market...
Tom
As for whether the box has enough power to do what it's meant for - I have to agree, I'd have to think that Moto would do absolutely anything to avoid having to scrap the 6412 and come up with a new box design.

Just imagine how long that would take: between the design, QC, production, and Cable-Co validation time. I'd be highly surprised if that would take <1 year.. especially because I'm sure at that point, the CableCos would extend the validation period to make sure this scenario didn't repeat itself.

Plus, imagine the contracts Moto would lose - both contracts for 6412s and others because of the Cable-Cos lost faith..

So, one would think Moto would put every effort into fixing this - without having to swap hardware.

--Walburga

Now, dumb question that I haven't seen answered:

Are we sure it is a firmware/HW issue and not the Passport Echo SW??

Obviously, I'm not sure just where the line is drawn between what code Motorola wrote and the Pioneer code - But if boxes that use other IPG SW, like the MS based 6412s, don't have this issue then it would point to the overlying SW being at fault...

So, does anyone out there have a non-Passport Echo based 6412 w/dual tuners active, and are they having issues??

--Walburga

Originally posted by MoxiGuy
Not quite so. I'd like to point out that Motorola's other two-tuner HD-DVR, the BMC9012 with Moxi has been in commercial deployment since May and both tuners have been working since day one. It's not on the Cox system yet, but subscribers on Adelphia and Charter are able to record two HD shows simultaneously while playing back a third. Thanks for the post. I read about the Moxi system and must say it sounds pretty impressive. It has all the features of the Passport Echo system and more. One feature I really like is that when you remove channels you don't care about/subscribe to from channel list they won't show up in the guide. Don't know yet if the USB 2.0 ports have been enabled to allow additional external storage but at least that option is there. The 6412 only has USB 1.x ports AFAIK.

MoxiGuy, when you say it's not in the Cox system yet, does that mean there are plans for it sometime down the road? Do you know why Cox chose the 6412 as their platform over the BMC9012? Maybe we can start a campaign to have Cox transition to the BMC9012 as a means to solve the problems we are seeing.

The 6412 has 2 firewire ports however ;)

Originally posted by moyekj
MoxiGuy, when you say it's not in the Cox system yet, does that mean there are plans for it sometime down the road? Do you know why Cox chose the 6412 as their platform over the BMC9012? Maybe we can start a campaign to have Cox OC transition to the BMC9012 as a means to solve the problems we are seeing. I can't speak for Cox. I can tell you we're talking with them about the merits of Motorola BMC9012 and the two-room system, BMC9022 with Moxi Mate. "Yet," expresses my hope that we will be persuasive. As for a customer campaign, that's up to Cox customers. If you want to learn more about the Motorola BMC9012 with Moxi, here's our website. (http://www.digeo.com)

BTW, simultaneously playing and recording high definition video is not that easy. Our developers may have cheated: They elected to use a 733MHz processor that's several times faster than the processor in the 6412. The 9012 has more memory and it uses a real operating system with a highly tuned file system. The architecture was designed from the outset for two HD tuners. It was never thought of as "adding a second tuner."

Originally posted by MoxiGuy
I can't speak for Cox. I can tell you we're talking with them about the merits of Motorola BMC9012 and the two-room system, BMC9022 with Moxi Mate. "Yet," expresses my hope that we will be persuasive. As for a customer campaign, that's up to Cox customers. If you want to learn more about the Motorola BMC9012 with Moxi, here's our website. (http://www.digeo.com)

BTW, simultaneously playing and recording high definition video is not that easy. Our developers may have cheated: They elected to use a 733MHz processor that's several times faster than the processor in the 6412. The 9012 has more memory and it uses a real operating system with a highly tuned file system. The architecture was designed from the outset for two HD tuners. It was never thought of as "adding a second tuner."

Wow!

Moxi looks really cool!

The 2 things I really like are adding DVR functionality to DVD play (replay/quick skip) - which after having a ReplayTV, I keep reaching for when watching movies - and the 2 room feature.

Of course, judging by the screen-shots, I'd absolutely HATE the On-screen Guide.

Just me, but I use the "Grid" view a lot: scanning channels, and looking ahead, often several days, for things that look interesting to record.. One reason why I like the Replay Guide over my brother-in-laws Tivo :D

BTW: I wouldn't call that "cheating" - just sounds like your engineers were smart enough to realize the processing power needed.

--Walburga

Well, my money is still on this being a software thing. I’d be surprised if there is anything wrong with the Hardware.

However, across the street (so to speak), Comsat is saying they are holding off 6412 with iGuide until next month. Maybe they are experiencing the same bug or maybe its not safe for them to come out after cutting the final inning of extra innings of a Red Sox HD Game. Red Sox HD fans are a little crazy right now, 100 years of humiliation on top of it all.

The Cox person will be looking at the box tonight to no avail no doubt. But try to look at this way, we are an army of beta testers on mission and we will not yield and we will not stop until mission accomplished.

Originally posted by Joe3
The Cox person will be looking at the box tonight to no avail no doubt. But try to look at this way, we are an army of beta testers on mission and we will not yield and we will not stop until mission accomplished.

Given how quick the bugs were reported and how easy it is to reproduce them ... we are alpha testers at the very best.

Whatever

I have some new insight today FWIW. Apparently it seems that the vast majority of people who have the DVR's are NOT HD subscribers, and the problems that we are having with the tiling, although universal to the HD users, are not an issue to the non HD users. Which confirms my suspicion as to why the CSR's are not all that familiar with the issue. And although this is no consolation to any of us, my crystal ball tells me there may be a patch deployed next week if testing with the fix for the tiling is effective. unfortunately my display is in the shop, and I won't be able to tell whether it has helped.

I hope dresf is right. Crystal Ball? Is that a joke or do you have some sort of unconfirmed inside information?

In any case, if anyone is interested, I have found a work-around that is very consistent on my equipment. On my box, I could not even pause a live-HD feed, if the second tuner is tuned to a live HD or SD channel. To work-around this ...

1) Tune into a non-subscribed-to channel (e.g. NHL channel 655 or something)
2) Hit the swap button on the remote
3) Tune (the second tuner) to an HD channel

If the channel is not clean, hit the up, followed by the down channel to clear the buffer.

You can now pause/RW/FF etc. the live HD signal.
You can also record this HD channel and use pause/RW/FF etc.

You can even change the channel to another HD channel BUT...
DO NOT use any of the functions (pause/FF/RW)... Just watch, otherwise that channel AND THE CHANNEL BEING RECORDED will pixelate.

In fact, I have found that you can even record the second HD channel, as long as you do not hit any other buttons, including changing the channel back the first channel that is being recorded.

I have also found that if the above procedure is followed, and you are recording one or two (I think two, but I'll have to verify) HD channels, you can watch a pre-recorded channel, but again, do not use any of the functions (pause/FF/RW). If you do, it will corrupt the channels being recorded.

Originally posted by TV2000
I hope dresf is right. Crystal Ball? Is that a joke or do you have some sort of unconfirmed inside information?



No joke

The video breakup is now a known problem. It's not a bug in the Moto DVR, or due to a lack of testing by Cox.

The problem is related to an unusual condition between some HD channel handling in the headend (a specific piece of equipment used by some Cox headends) and the HD handling chip in the Moto DVR.

There is a software fix being developed which will be installed in Cox systems as soon as possible.

News Flash! I just got home and the breakup problem is fixed. I tested this by recording two HD channels while watching a pre-recorded file. No problems. Both HD channels recorded flawlessly. I can pause, RW, FF, whatever, without any breakup problems at all. I hope this is not a fluke and the fix is permanent. If so, good job Cox!

I spoke too soon. It was working. Now it's back to the same old breakup problem. Cox may be trying a few things out in Orange County CA. It was working between 7 and 7:30.

I don't think the breakup problem will be fixed until there is new firmware for the 6412.

Originally posted by VideooooGuy
The video breakup is now a known problem. It's not a bug in the Moto DVR, or due to a lack of testing by Cox.

The problem is related to an unusual condition between some HD channel handling in the headend (a specific piece of equipment used by some Cox headends) and the HD handling chip in the Moto DVR.

There is a software fix being developed which will be installed in Cox systems as soon as possible.

Hehe, so much for all the guys wanting the Diego solution. Looked nice though.. :)

VideooooGuy thanks for the update. I'm sure you guys at the COX team are working hard trying to get the fix out as soon as possible, and I definitely appreciate you shedding any inside light you have on this matter...

Although when the fix comes out, people will start complaining about something else (it's never enough), for example a solution to offload stored programs, so good luck!

-T

Oddly enough, I just watched 3 recorded HD programs using FF, pause, etc; and never had 1 breakup. Yay me :)

Originally posted by VideooooGuy
The video breakup is now a known problem. It's not a bug in the Moto DVR, or due to a lack of testing by Cox.

The problem is related to an unusual condition between some HD channel handling in the headend (a specific piece of equipment used by some Cox headends) and the HD handling chip in the Moto DVR.

There is a software fix being developed which will be installed in Cox systems as soon as possible. Thanks very much for the update Video Guy. Any ETA on the fix to be deployed? Is it another firmware update for the 6412 boxes or a fix only at Cox end? Any idea about the "guide hole" bug? Thanks for any other info you can provide.

> Thanks very much for the update Video Guy. Any ETA on the fix to be deployed? Is it another firmware update for the 6412 boxes or a fix only at Cox end? Any idea about the "guide hole" bug? Thanks for any other info you can provide.


I'm new to posting in forums, so please be patient with my newbieness.

Now that the HD breakup problem is understood, there are several ways to fix it. The Cox fix will be provided in a Motorola firmware update combined with a Pioneer Passport-ECHO update. We're working hard towards getting this into the field systems during the first two weeks of November - BUT ... that requires that no new bugs/issues were introduced with the fix.

I apologize for the time delay, but that's what's required for testing by Motorola, Pioneer, and Cox.

Originally posted by VideooooGuy
> Thanks very much for the update Video Guy. Any ETA on the fix to be deployed? Is it another firmware update for the 6412 boxes or a fix only at Cox end? Any idea about the "guide hole" bug? Thanks for any other info you can provide.


I'm new to posting in forums, so please be patient with my newbieness.

Now that the HD breakup problem is understood, there are several ways to fix it. The Cox fix will be provided in a Motorola firmware update combined with a Pioneer Passport-ECHO update. We're working hard towards getting this into the field systems during the first two weeks of November - BUT ... that requires that no new bugs/issues were introduced with the fix.

I apologize for the time delay, but that's what's required for testing by Motorola, Pioneer, and Cox. OK thanks and really appreciate the feedback and honesty. It's good to know that Cox cares enough about this to keep us informed one way or another, and I think you'll find feedback given in this forum mostly valuable. Just hope the "guide hole" bug can also be understood and fixed in the same update. If you guys run (or plan to run) any kind of beta testing for existing customers I would be interested in signing up.

do you know if this upcoming firmware upgrade will fix the DVI issues people are having?

Big thanks Videoooguy. We do appreciate interaction from Cox. The more I use this box, the more I actually like it. My breakup issues haven't been as severe since day 1, and I am enjoying being able to watch all the HD programming I miss with my current work shift (2nd shift sucks!). If you can fix the breakup issue and allow us expanded storage, I'll be in heaven ;)

One of my fellow HD enthuiasts here in ICT tells me that since Tue or Wed he has not been experiencing the tiling/pixelization anymore FWIW. As I had posted above my display is in the shop and I cannot tell if I am fixed as well.

My "Crystal Ball" also said something to the effect that the DVI fix is tentatively set for 1Q2005.

Originally posted by oleus
do you know if this upcoming firmware upgrade will fix the DVI issues people are having? I don't know if it was by accident, but I don't have the DVI issue with this latest firmware anymore. With the previous single-tuner firmware the DVI handshaking bug happened every time I switched off the display.

The DVI issue is the only thing fixed by the latest firmware.

niesman

Originally posted by niesman
The DVI issue is the only thing fixed by the latest firmware.

niesman
Don't forget we got these fixes too (along with the new search capability and new bugs of course):
2. FF/REW of HD programming is much smoother and faster
3. Playing a program that is still recording actually starts from the beginning now and FF/REW doesn't kick you back to live

Originally posted by madpoet
Big thanks Videoooguy. We do appreciate interaction from Cox. The more I use this box, the more I actually like it. My breakup issues haven't been as severe since day 1, and I am enjoying being able to watch all the HD programming I miss with my current work shift (2nd shift sucks!). If you can fix the breakup issue and allow us expanded storage, I'll be in heaven ;)

Although we're working on it, expanded (external) storage is a tough problem. Here's why ...

The content owners (like HBO, NBC, etc.) require Cox to implement Copy Protection mechanisms anytime the corresponding Copy Protection bit is set on content coming into our headends. When the hard drive is inside this set-top, this isn't too tough.

When the hard drive can be externally connected, it requires that we encrypt content exiting the set-top and ensure that the receiving hard drive adheres to copy protection rules. Let your brain start to think through the use cases on that one and you'll be reaching for the B.C. powder pretty quickly.

TiVo doesn't have this kind of problem, since they aren't distributors of content.

Anyway ... Copy Protection is why we don't anticipate ever being able to support external USB hard drives on DVRs. 1394 (FireWire) and DVI/HDMI are OK because there are accepted encryption standards for these interfaces.

Hope this helps.

That's what we kind of figured ;). It's certainly fine by me, I'm using firewire anyway for my JVC deck. 12 hours is making it a little tough though ;). Is there any chance of a 6412 with an expanded drive, like a 250 or 300? I realize there are cost concerns, just curious. Frankly I'd buy the box if I could and upgrade the hard drive myself! I just want more, including more HD. Do you have any pull getting me the rest of my locals for me? :)

good to hear that the DVI problems were fixed.

can't wait for these boxes to be available in atlanta! i run out of recording space way too often on my 6208's....

Originally posted by VideooooGuy
Although we're working on it, expanded (external) storage is a tough problem. Here's why ...

The content owners (like HBO, NBC, etc.) require Cox to implement Copy Protection mechanisms anytime the corresponding Copy Protection bit is set on content coming into our headends. When the hard drive is inside this set-top, this isn't too tough.

When the hard drive can be externally connected, it requires that we encrypt content exiting the set-top and ensure that the receiving hard drive adheres to copy protection rules. Let your brain start to think through the use cases on that one and you'll be reaching for the B.C. powder pretty quickly.

TiVo doesn't have this kind of problem, since they aren't distributors of content.

Anyway ... Copy Protection is why we don't anticipate ever being able to support external USB hard drives on DVRs. 1394 (FireWire) and DVI/HDMI are OK because there are accepted encryption standards for these interfaces.

Hope this helps.


What am I missing here? The HD tivo through directTv (a content distributor) has a larger hard drive to start with, and you can upgrade that drive to over 70 hours HD. So the argument that Tivo is not a content distributor, while techically correct, doesn't make sense to me since the Tivo is built into the DirectTv receiver just as the PVR function is built into our cable boxes. I would gladly trade Firewire for a LARGE hard drive.

While I have not researched this at all, I am sure that the same concerns over encryption came up when the decision was made to add any Hard Drive to a PVR issued by the cable companies. Wasn't anyone concerned that with the right tools someone could open the box and remove the drive, hack into it, and remove programming? How much harder is it to add encryption to an external drive than what is being written to the drive currently?

the difference may be that the HD DirecTivo has no dvi output, right?

i meant to say no DVI *and* firewire outputs from the directivos......2 things these motorola boxes have.....

OK Videooooguy I'm glad it seems we have a Cox internal person posting!!! I have a VERY important question though, while I find the HD pixellation problem a biggie, almost if not as important of a bug to be fixed are the "guide holes" that I keep seeing! For example, tonight between 7:30 and 4:30 tomorrow morning, my guide says "no data". I've seen this happen all too often with this unit since I got it just over a week ago and it really worries me, because any time this happens my recurring shows don't record. Previous posts indicate that Cox is also aware of this problem but you didn't comment on it, PLEASE tell me this is being looked into, HD recording is one thing, but when a PVR doesn't record your shows whatsoever and the guide has more holes in it than swiss cheese THAT is a very big issue!
Tom

This quote from the OC thread by Steve Wilcox. It may provide some insight into the cause of the serious "Guide Hole" bug affecting many/most. If anyone has insight into how to predicatably reproduce the "Guide Hole" bug it would be very useful for Cox/Motorola to pindown and work on a fix for the problem.

I went the unplug route once so far. Worked fine. Didn't lose any scheduled recordings, and came back online within 1-2 minutes.

I think I've been able to make the bug happen by using the Day+ button to go past the latest downloaded schedule. For example, let's say the schedule only goes through next Sunday, and I use Day+ to go to next Monday (seeing only No Data for now). After that, the Monday schedule remains blank, even after the Tuesday schedule has been downloaded. I haven't tested this rigorously yet, but it fits what I've seen so far.
__________________
-- Steve

Originally posted by rdenichilo
What am I missing here? The HD tivo through directTv (a content distributor) has a larger hard drive to start with, and you can upgrade that drive to over 70 hours HD. So the argument that Tivo is not a content distributor, while techically correct, doesn't make sense to me since the Tivo is built into the DirectTv receiver just as the PVR function is built into our cable boxes. I would gladly trade Firewire for a LARGE hard drive.

While I have not researched this at all, I am sure that the same concerns over encryption came up when the decision was made to add any Hard Drive to a PVR issued by the cable companies. Wasn't anyone concerned that with the right tools someone could open the box and remove the drive, hack into it, and remove programming? How much harder is it to add encryption to an external drive than what is being written to the drive currently?


A couple of points... first, you purchase the HD Tivo unit. It's yours. Second, upgrading the HD voids your warranty. Third, any modifications you do are internal to the unit ands do not use external devices. Yes, I know you can extract the files from the Tivo. But again, since you don't own the cable boxes, you can get in a lot more trouble for screwing with them. Which is of course why I'd love to just be able to buy one ;)

Originally posted by rdenichilo
What am I missing here? The HD tivo through directTv (a content distributor) has a larger hard drive to start with, and you can upgrade that drive to over 70 hours HD. So the argument that Tivo is not a content distributor, while techically correct, doesn't make sense to me since the Tivo is built into the DirectTv receiver just as the PVR function is built into our cable boxes. I would gladly trade Firewire for a LARGE hard drive.

While I have not researched this at all, I am sure that the same concerns over encryption came up when the decision was made to add any Hard Drive to a PVR issued by the cable companies. Wasn't anyone concerned that with the right tools someone could open the box and remove the drive, hack into it, and remove programming? How much harder is it to add encryption to an external drive than what is being written to the drive currently?

The drives in Cox set-tops are tied to the box itself with encryption, making it fairly difficult for a novice to hack into it to remove programming (think of it as 'ankle high' protection).

Encryption to an external drive requires both the set-top and the drives to 'agree' on a proven encryption protocol (like 5c for 1394 or HDCP for DVI/DHMI).

And as someone pointed out earlier - this becomes an issue for the content owners when you have both:
1) HD (also called 'high value') digital content
2) Digital outputs (like 1394 or DVI/HDMI)
I don't believe TiVO/DirecTV have to deal with this situation.

Hope this helps,

“Out here in the field.”
:(

Cox person came by on Friday as I requested.
Showed the problem, and he said they are aware of it and its nation wide.
So far so good.

I told him about the fast forwarding problem that froze the screen and sent it back to the beginning of the show playing it back without sound. This was news to him and he repeated the problem for himself. I said it was only happening with certain channels. He said he would take a different box back to Cox or home to test it to see if there was something wrong with all of the boxes or just mine. He said he would call me. As he was leaving I joked about it being a Black & White problem and the color channels including HD seem to be fine.

Fours hours latter the Cox tech person called me and said he recreated the problem with the Fast Forward only with recording black & White programming and that I was right. He said he reported the problem and would get back to me in a few days. He said no one has ever reported this problem with the box.

My question, as strange as it sounds, has anyone recorded in Black & White and had a problem with Fast Forwarding?

VideooooGuy did you see my question a few posts up about the gaps in the guide, this is a major concern, at least for some of us!
Tom

VideooooGuy, I hope that you are also tracking the zero-length recording problem. I'd had it happen to me (again) just yesterday. After 9.11 was loaded, it happened twice and Cox Tech Support asked me to reset all my recordings again (erase series recordings, then re-enter). It seems to happen when a number of shows/movies are already recorded on the disk.

There is very good news for the HD macroblocking ('pixelization') problem several people are seeing. We have found another workaround that can be performed in the headend. Corporate engineers are to get this fix implemented in field systems in the next week or so!

We're also working on several other irritating problems, including gaps in the guide and zero-length recordings. We hear you!

Woot, I'm liking this box more and more ;)

Originally posted by dresf
One of my fellow HD enthuiasts here in ICT tells me that since Tue or Wed he has not been experiencing the tiling/pixelization anymore FWIW. As I had posted above my display is in the shop and I cannot tell if I am fixed as well.

My "Crystal Ball" also said something to the effect that the DVI fix is tentatively set for 1Q2005.

I watched Order In on INHD2....the perfect program to view tiling....and got none whatsoever. Then I watched a bit of the game show channel which is also another culprit....zilch. So atleast here in Wichita, KS since we haven't recieved any upgrade I'm guessing Cox fixed whatevers going on there end?

Originally posted by VideooooGuy
There is very good news for the HD macroblocking ('pixelization') problem several people are seeing. We have found another workaround that can be performed in the headend. Corporate engineers are to get this fix implemented in field systems in the next week or so!

We're also working on several other irritating problems, including gaps in the guide and zero-length recordings. We hear you! Thanks as always for passing along this information. Excuse my ignorance but I really have no idea what you are talking about when you say headend and field systems. Could you clarify what you mean by those? Thanks again.

Headend is the equipment on their end I believe.

Originally posted by moyekj
Thanks as always for passing along this information. Excuse my ignorance but I really have no idea what you are talking about when you say headend and field systems. Could you clarify what you mean by those? Thanks again.

Sorry .. it's cable TV lingo.

'Headend' means the signal processing equipment at the other end of your cable. It's where Cox receives signals from satellites and ground stations and creates the channel lineup you see in your home. It's also where the video-on-demand and interactive program guide (Pioneer Passport) are located. It's really amazing to see all the technology that goes into creating a cable TV system - there's a LOT more to it than you could ever imagine.

As a guy that works in the Cox Corporate office in Atlanta, 'field systems' refers to our headends across the U.S. For Motorola equipment this includes Orange County, CA; Wichita, KA; Omaha, NE; Rhode Island; CT; and numerous others.

Videooooguy,

Thanks again for the great insider knowledge. I'm a little bit confused on your recent post. When you say the "HD Macroblocking pixellation issue", are you talking about:

a) the issue on HD channels (DVR or non-DVR) that affects certain programs when there's too much fast action/motion or information causing the picture to macroblock due to insufficient bandwidth / poor MPEG compression (very evident on NBC's recent Summer Olympic broadcasts)

-or-

b) the issue specific to HD-DVR 6412 where under certain circumstances an HD channel or recording will get mangled with garbage lines and corrupt video breakup (for example when recording 2 HD channels, watching 2 HD channels and performing DVR functions on one of them, etc.)

In other words were you bringing to our attention a new fix possibly with compression or increased bandwidth on HD programs, or the fact that there's a quicker solution to the one that was being worked on that had to go through testing from Motorola, Pioneer, and COX that would take until the first two weeks of November...

-T

neyugnt, I'm fairly certain VideoGuy is talking about a fix for b) and that while originally we were expecting a fix sometime in November now we could get a fix much sooner. The motion-related artifacts for HD programming is entirely a different problem and I don't think there is much that Cox can do about that since they are just re-distributing OTA transmissions. I don't believe Cox does any re-encoding of HD OTA transmissions. In any case it would be good if VideoGuy could comment on this problem (with motion artifacting) since the cable companies (and satellite companies) do get a lot of blame for "over-compressing" HD channels and I'm not sure that blame is well placed.

Originally posted by VideooooGuy
The drives in Cox set-tops are tied to the box itself with encryption, making it fairly difficult for a novice to hack into it to remove programming (think of it as 'ankle high' protection).

Encryption to an external drive requires both the set-top and the drives to 'agree' on a proven encryption protocol (like 5c for 1394 or HDCP for DVI/DHMI).

And as someone pointed out earlier - this becomes an issue for the content owners when you have both:
1) HD (also called 'high value') digital content
2) Digital outputs (like 1394 or DVI/HDMI)
I don't believe TiVO/DirecTV have to deal with this situation.

Hope this helps,

So you're relying on drives that have encryption builtin to the drive controller? I've never heard of such a drive, could you point out a model that does such a thing?

Any encryption system I'm aware of encrypts internally, passes the encrypted data to the HD, and stores it in encrypted form. You can move the HD or do whatever, but unless you plug it back into the original device, it's useless. Any commodity drive will work with that scheme, and you can use arbitrarily strong keys if you use tamper-proof hardware within the box itself.

Bruce

Bruce

videooooguy:

Thanks for participating on this forum. I'm a recent convert to the Cox Motorola HDTV/DVR in Omaha, NE. We are getting the software upgrade for the dual tuner/PIP functions on the 29th according to my local Cox tech's. Any tips on using the DVR and workarounds for the known bugs? Thanks again!

Corey J

Originally posted by moyekj
neyugnt, I'm fairly certain VideoGuy is talking about a fix for b) and that while originally we were expecting a fix sometime in November now we could get a fix much sooner. The motion-related artifacts for HD programming is entirely a different problem and I don't think there is much that Cox can do about that since they are just re-distributing OTA transmissions. I don't believe Cox does any re-encoding of HD OTA transmissions. In any case it would be good if VideoGuy could comment on this problem (with motion artifacting) since the cable companies (and satellite companies) do get a lot of blame for "over-compressing" HD channels and I'm not sure that blame is well placed.

I believe Cox does recode HD...but that's not saying that the issues you are seeing are related to that. To be sure you would need to do a comparison with an off-air signal with that off the Cox set-top.

Videooooguy,

What causes the digital channels to lose subscription? I mean if I turn to a digital channel that I subscribe to it says call cox to subscribe.


Andrew Wees

Originally posted by Bruce Lowekamp
So you're relying on drives that have encryption builtin to the drive controller? I've never heard of such a drive, could you point out a model that does such a thing?

Any encryption system I'm aware of encrypts internally, passes the encrypted data to the HD, and stores it in encrypted form. You can move the HD or do whatever, but unless you plug it back into the original device, it's useless. Any commodity drive will work with that scheme, and you can use arbitrarily strong keys if you use tamper-proof hardware within the box itself.

Bruce

Bruce

It's more that DMCA prohobits the consumer from removing the hard drive from the set-top. Additionally, the set-top could employ some internal encryption before it writes to disk, it does not have to be an encrypted file system.

As far as an external drive that would work, all you need is a Mac running OS X...there is also a driver floating around for WindowsXP.

As for a consumer product, perhaps eventually a company will come out with a hard disk based DVHS-compatible device. Of course, DMCA and broadcast flag most likely requires that this device not be mountable by a computer unless the driver/file system recognizes the broadcast flag appropriately.

Originally posted by neyugnt
Videooooguy,
...

In other words were you bringing to our attention a new fix possibly with compression or increased bandwidth on HD programs, or the fact that there's a quicker solution to the one that was being worked on that had to go through testing from Motorola, Pioneer, and COX that would take until the first two weeks of November...

-T

Sorry .. I was referring to a quicker solution to the one which requires testing by Moto, Pioneer, and Cox.

The good news is that this new solution can be implemented within the next week or so, instead of 'the first two weeks of November.'

This is because the new solution can be done within the Cox facilities (our headends) and does not require new software to be downloaded to the set-tops.

Originally posted by ajwees41
Videooooguy,

What causes the digital channels to lose subscription? I mean if I turn to a digital channel that I subscribe to it says call cox to subscribe.


Andrew Wees This has been a known problem for a while for which the workaround is to channel out then back to the channel to eliminate the "No subscription" message.

Video Guy, I believe this bug is related to the "0-minute recording" bug. My theory is that sometimes for a scheduled recording the 6412 will tune to the relevant channel and runs into this "No subscription" bug and because of that there is no signal to be recorded resulting in 0-minute recordings.

A quick way to check your disk space and firmware version on the 6412:

Hit the settings button to bring up the menu. Highlight the "SAP Play Secondary Audio" option. Hit the following buttons in order: Select, Down Arrow, B, Up Arrow, B. A menu will pop up. The first line is the free space available on the drive, the second line is the time currently in the two buffers, and the third line is the total time of the current recordings. Figure about 8GB for 1 hour of recorded HD. The firmware version is listed across the top of the menu. This works for the older firmware and the new 9.11 firmware. CAUTION: on my box leaving the SAP on will block out audio and video on SHOHD and STARZHD.

Another interesting thing: Tune in ESPNHD. Hit the settings button to bring up the menu. Turn SAP on and then off. With my box this will eliminate the live audio, ie. for Sunday Night NFL this will turn off the announcers leaving only the game sounds. This has worked for three weeks in a row and is a great way to watch the game. This will also turn off the Sportscenter anchors and you can watch the highlights with game sounds but without comments. Just change the channel and the announcers will be restored.

dresf's crystal ball: The ball saw the future with the tiling issue. I tried all different combinations with recording/HD channels/SD channels/swapping/FF and REW and did not see any problems. Hopefully the tiling issue is in the past.

Got to have at least one complaint: The response time to the remote is very sloooooow with the 9.11 firmware. The guide response is very sluggish when moving around.

Thanks for the great tips on the hidden info Vern. I also tried to force the "tiling" bug by tuning both tuners to HD and using instant replay, pause, ff, etc. on one of the buffers and looks like the issue is gone. So it appears that Cox is already experimenting with the headend fix. That was fast if that's the case!

I think at some point, the hard drive in these 6412's has to be doubled in size. I recorded the emmy awards pre-awards and post-awards shows, and it wiped out all my existing recordings :(
on top of that, it was all pixellated, so it wasn't worth watching anyway!

Ditto-Storage size on the hard drive is not enough.

Just so I can keep the bugs with 6412 straight without going a little buggy myself, which one is the tiling" bug?

Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by Joe3
Ditto-Storage size on the hard drive is not enough.

Just so I can keep the bugs with 6412 straight without going a little buggy myself, which one is the tiling" bug?

Thanks in advance. "HD Video tiling bug" == HD Gross Video pixellation (looks like a bunch of tiles that keep popping up all over the video)

Originally posted by Joe3
Ditto-Storage size on the hard drive is not enough.



Any chance we can plug a fireware hardrive into the firewire port to get more storage? We already lost some shows we haven't seen yet...

Chris

Does anybody here with the 6412 also have the JVC 30k DVHS VCR? I've had this for awhile and used it occasionally for playback of D-Theater and some HD-NET tapes but never tried recording anything. I just want to know if anyone's successfully offloaded recorded content before I skip out and buy a firewire cable and test it out. Mostly I'm asking cuz I just don't want to be disappointed. :)

-T

I have with my 40k. Seemed to work fine on channels flagged 5c 0 or 1. I was worried that recording to the hard drive would use up the record once flag, but it doesn't. That kind of makes sense, because in reality it's ALWAYS recording the show into buffers.

Before leaving for work I rebooted the 6412 to fix "No Data" in the guide so that it can record tonight. Right away the "HD video tiling" bug re-appeared when I gave it a quick test. The box must have been in some state before that somehow avoids the bug. In any case, the tiling bug is NOT fixed yet so sorry for false alarm. I would assume Video Guy will post when the fix is put in effect.

Originally posted by cpteague
Any chance we can plug a fireware hardrive into the firewire port to get more storage? We already lost some shows we haven't seen yet...

Chris


This was posted all of two days ago... (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4411244#post4411244)

Videooooguy,
Will this "headend fix" be implemented in Louisiana?

Originally posted by moyekj


Video Guy, I believe this bug is related to the "0-minute recording" bug. My theory is that sometimes for a scheduled recording the 6412 will tune to the relevant channel and runs into this "No subscription" bug and because of that there is no signal to be recorded resulting in 0-minute recordings.

VideoooGuy. FYI. Please pass this information along. I agree with moyekj. In fact, before reading his post, I drew the same conclusion. Last night I tried to record two shows on NBC-HD, LAX and the Tonight Show. Both shows failed with the zero length error (i.e. no recording and reported time: 11:34-11:34).

In the morning, when I went to the guide and tried to record any show on NBC-HD, I received a message "Channel not recordable". Then, when I tried to tune in NBC-HD, it took about 5-10 seconds for the no-subscription message to go away and finally tune in the channel.

Thus, I am convinced that the zero length error that many people are reporting is directly related to the "No Subscription" bug.

Thanks,

I have had the "0 minute" bug as well, but my "subscription" errors have been only on specific HD channels and never on channels that I have had the "0 minute" bug. FWIW But the theory, nevertheless has theoretical merit.
I hardly ever record non-HD material, if it aint in HD, it aint worth watchin.

Got this email from Cox Last night:

Scott,

Thanks for your recent order of Cox Digital Video Recorder. As you may have experienced, DVR from Cox is an exciting new product that will revolutionize the way you watch television!

However, as is often the case with new technology, there is always room for improvement. That's why we certainly do appreciate the comments that you recently submitted on our website.

I can assure you that our corporate office is working closely and diligently with Motorola to resolve all known issues with the DVR product. The following "bugs" have been identified as top priorities:
1. HD channel tiling
2. Inadequate storage capacity on hard drive
3. No guide / mismatched guide data
4. Fast forward to play overcompensation

Thanks again for your feedback. And thanks for choosing Cox Communications!


Monte J. Danos
Marketing Manager, Video Products
Cox - Baton Rouge

That's good news, they pretty much summed up the major problems with this box, at least we know they are "officially" recognizing these problems and hopefully working towards fixing them...
Tom

No, they missed "Subscription" and "0-minute recording" bugs (which I think are related to each other) - major bugs affecting many of us. Video Guy, wherever you are, please make sure these bugs are known and being worked on.

To be sure we are not missing MAJOR bugs, here's the list of them I am aware of:
1. HD Video Tiling bug - Cox aware of and a fix upcoming in < 2 weeks
2. Guide Hole bug - Cox aware of but have not figured out the cause of the problem and no ETA on a fix.
3. subscription bug - Cox has not acknowledged this bug to my knowledge. This is where sometimes when you tune to a digital channel you do subscribe to the box claims you do not subscribe to the channel. Workaround is to channel out and back to fix the problem. This bug causes other problems in my estimation (see 4 below).
4. 0-minute recordings bug - Cox has not acknowledged this bug to my knowledge even though there are plenty of reports of the bug. This is associated with "subscription bug" above in my estimation - see my previous comments in this thread about this.
5. FF bug. Sometimes when you fast-forward through some programming and then press play to stop the FF you are taken back to where you started FF from (a much longer jump back than the normal 10 seconds or so).

Somebody please fill in details for bug # 5 as I haven't had much experience with that one. All other bugs I and many others have run into and are MAJOR. There are several other little bugs and enhancements needed, but IMO the above should be the priority of fixes.

As I stated earlier, The Cox tech that came out called me back after he left and told me the Fast Forward would freeze on a Black & White recording and bring the program back to the beginning if you keep hitting FF. He said he recorded off of TMC.
He said I was the first person he knew of that reported the problem.
Now I haven’t recorded on every channel because like most of you I don't watch every channel. But I wouldn’t be surprised if there were other channels with FF problems. I recorded the Avengers on BBC last Friday and it did Fast Froward, but like a slow slide show.
I want to keep my cool, but I can’t repeat watching the first 90 min of a Black & White film to get the last 30 min. So I delete or Erase .:confused: not a good experience.

How much delay are you guys getting while changing channels? A second or so, or a few seconds, i.e. painfully slow?

Originally posted by dresf
How much delay are you guys getting while changing channels? A second or so, or a few seconds, i.e. painfully slow? Having dealt with PVRs for many years now this is something I have learned to live with... since a PVR has to buffer to disk there is always going to be some inherent delay in changing channels, and by having 2 tuners it makes matters worse. Personally I very rarely do any channel surfing anymore - everything I watch is pre-recorded, so it doesn't really bother me how long it takes to change channels. I haven't noticed changing channels being much slower than with my ReplayTVs for example (using their internal tuners).

Cox Video Guy:

Do you think there is any chance that the headend problem could also be causing the "subscription bug" and/or the "guide hole bug"? I'm hoping that's the case, because that could mean that fixing the headend could fix everything at once!

eric,

For me channel changes seem reasonably quick, just a second or so. With the tiling bug showing up any time I use the trasport functions(ff, rw, pause), I find myself channelling off and back on the channel I'm watching and it's pretty fast.

The exception to this is when you then get the "Subscription Channel" bug. When you get this, the channel sometimes comes up after the message has been on the screen for 3-10 seconds or so. If it doesn't, you have to change off and back onto that channel.

Kind of like moyekj, I don't cycle through channels much either. If I am surfing live TV, it's usually by scrolling through the guide and picking stuff that way. Rarely do I just hit the channel + and - to go through channels. In fact the only time I use channel + and -, is to fix the current tiling bug and I'm stopping that because it works better if I go to a non-HD channel and then back to HD.

Tire:

That has been my experience as well with the channel changing speed, i.e. nothing to complain about. A friend of mine is having issues with 3 sec channel changes before picture occurs. Just checking to see if anyone else has noted a big delay.

I'm in Orange County, CA, and as of last night, I believe the headend fix has been implemented here. I can no longer make the picture tiling bug occur. I restarted the box several times, and thoroughly tested it by swapping between tuners with both tuners on HD, then by playing an HD recording then switching back to the live HD tuners. I have noticed, however, that swapping between tuners or between a recording and live TV takes longer now. This is a small price to pay finally being rid of the picture tiling. Time will tell if the subscription and guide hole bugs have been fixed as well.

VideooooGuy, you still around? Could you provide an update on the "tiling" bug and the other major bugs I listed a few posts back?
Thanks for any update you can provide or just a quick hello to let us know you are still around.

In Irvine here too. Tiling issue does appear to be fixed. I can not reproduce it even when recorded 2 HD channels, pausing and FF or RW on each and watching previously recorded HD program and FF/RW while recording 2 HD programs.

Awesome! Can't wait to get home to test this bugger out.

Also, not to jinx myself or anything, but since the 9.11 firmware update, I've never gotten the subscription needed error, nor 0 length recordings. I really shouldn't have said that.

-T

Originally posted by neyugnt
Also, not to jinx myself or anything, but since the 9.11 firmware update, I've never gotten the subscription needed error, nor 0 length recordings. I really shouldn't have said that. How about the "Guide Hole" bug?

Spoke too soon. Tiling bug came back when I stopped one HD recording and switched to analog channel (2nd tuner still recording HD started tiling). However, not nearly as bad, and it seems to almost have gone away after 5 minutes.

Anyone else?

Originally posted by moyekj
How about the "Guide Hole" bug?

Yes, I've gotten the Guide Hole bug a handful of times before/after the firmware update, I'd guess about 5 times in total. It's a nuisance, but I've gotten it reloaded 100% of the time by unplugging the box, and plugging it back in as you've mentioned.

-T

Originally posted by rdenichilo
Spoke too soon. Tiling bug came back when I stopped one HD recording and switched to analog channel (2nd tuner still recording HD started tiling). However, not nearly as bad, and it seems to almost have gone away after 5 minutes.

Anyone else? Yeah, I embarassed myself a couple of days ago posting here that I thought the problem is resolved only to find the problem came back shortly after I rebooted the box to fix "Guide Hole" problem. I'm hoping that Video Guy is still around and will announce when the headend fix has been implemented (and at which locations).

Well, I'm convinced that the tiling problem is fixed in Orange County. I put my box through a stress test for 2 or 3 hours last night and couldn't produce the tiling. The worst I saw was an occasional picture glitch on NBC that would last half a second, then disappear. I can definitely tell that Cox has done something different, because switching tuners takes longer than before and acts differently.

Definately something different going on. Much improved, but not 100% fixed yet.

5. FF bug. Sometimes when you fast-forward through some programming and then press play to stop the FF you are taken back to where you started FF from (a much longer jump back than the normal 10 seconds or so).


I found a work around for this. When you are done fast forwarding, hit pause, then play, and you will be happy.

mooneycj

Originally posted by mooneycj
5. FF bug. Sometimes when you fast-forward through some programming and then press play to stop the FF you are taken back to where you started FF from (a much longer jump back than the normal 10 seconds or so).


I found a work around for this. When you are done fast forwarding, hit pause, then play, and you will be happy.

mooneycj Or just hit pause twice (equivalent of pause,play).

Well I finally go home tonight so I can play with my 6412 again and see if the tiling problem went away or not for myself. I hope so!!!
Anyone remember when third watch is on? I can't remember if I set it up to record it or not...I don't want to miss it.

Are there any new features in the firmware or passport echo update? We just got the dual tuner update on the 29th of September.




Originally posted by VideooooGuy
> Thanks very much for the update Video Guy. Any ETA on the fix to be deployed? Is it another firmware update for the 6412 boxes or a fix only at Cox end? Any idea about the "guide hole" bug? Thanks for any other info you can provide.


I'm new to posting in forums, so please be patient with my newbieness.

Now that the HD breakup problem is understood, there are several ways to fix it. The Cox fix will be provided in a Motorola firmware update combined with a Pioneer Passport-ECHO update. We're working hard towards getting this into the field systems during the first two weeks of November - BUT ... that requires that no new bugs/issues were introduced with the fix.

I apologize for the time delay, but that's what's required for testing by Motorola, Pioneer, and Cox.

Originally posted by ajwees41
Are there any new features in the firmware or passport echo update? We just got the dual tuner update on the 29th of September.

Still waiting here :rolleyes: . I wasn't too worried about it after the tiling reports, but if Cox has that figured out, let's get on with it already!

Originally posted by moyekj
No, they missed "Subscription" and "0-minute recording" bugs (which I think are related to each other) - major bugs affecting many of us. Video Guy, wherever you are, please make sure these bugs are known and being worked on.

I am starting to agree with moyekj that the "Subscription" and "0-minute recording" bugs are related. Here's why:

I powered up the box for the first time today. It was set to ESPNHD. I hit the guide button and highlighted a show on ABCHD to record later this evening. However when I pressed the select button, the pop up menu said that this was a "Non-recordable channel". I shut down the guide and changed the channel to ABCHD and up popped the "Subscription" bug. I changed channels back and forth until the "Subscription" bug went away and ABCHD was viewable. I then hit the guide button, highlighted the show I wanted to record and now the channel was recordable.

Yes, Videooooguy, the "Subscription" and "0-minute recording" bugs are definitely related as moyekj has pointed out previously and still exist with the 9.11 dual tuner software.

The big downside of this is I have the 9.11 dual tuner software. Now that the tiling issue has been fixed, this issue rises to #1 on my list of bugs with the dual tuner software. I need confidence that the programs I select to record are actually recorded. (I have never seen the "guide hole" bug.)

Originally posted by vblyth
...Now that the tiling issue has been fixed, this issue rises to #1 on my list of bugs with the dual tuner software... The tiling issue is NOT fixed. I can confirm the problem still exists - the video tiling is not as bad as before when it happens, but it is still very noticeable when it does. I reproduced the problem quite easily by starting to playback an HD recording while it was still recording, using FF, pause, etc. The segment of the HD recording that had not completed recording yet when I started playing the show had the video tiling problem from that point on.

I'm told that the headend workaround for the video tiling bug has been implemented in all Cox locations. If you're still having this problem, please post specifics about what channel, time of day, and exactly what you saw. There is still work being done in this area because it's a very complex issue which is caused by interactions between our headend gear (an HD multiplexer that handles many channels) and the specific HD-handling chip in the Motorola DCT6412. It wasn't caught during our corporate engineering testing because (believe it or not) it is a corner case that requires a specific setting of parameters (i'll spare you the gory details).

So ... we're listening and working these problems as quickly as possible.

On another note, the so-called "guide hole" bug has been identified! Pioneer believes they have fixed the bug and are now testing that fix. This fix will be implemented as an update to the DCT6412 guide software, but it will take some time to be fully tested by Pioneer, Motorola, and Cox. The last thing we want to do is fix the "guide hole" bug and risk breaking something else.

Once this new release of software is downloaded (still several weeks away), it will take a week or so for any "holes" in the guide data to work their way out of the DCT6412. Because the guide data is stored on disk, rebooting your DVR won't clear the guide data and correct things any quicker.

We are well aware of the other bugs that have been mentioned and are working hard to focus Pioneer on them. This includes zero-length recordings, "not subscribed to this channel", and several others.

Hope this helps ... please believe we are working very hard and believe the 6412 can be the best DVR product available.

Thanks for the update ;)

Videoooo... I'm not sure you're right. If I have the guide hole problem, unplugging the DVR and plugging it back in fixes it every single time. I always come back up with clean guide data. I know others here have mentioned the same thing. So there's something else going on there.

As for the head end fix, I haven't had any issues since Monday or Tuesday. I'll keep fighting it to see ;). Thanks for the continued updates.

For me, the tiling problem has gone away. You do see a few artifacts every once and a while, but those are relatively minor. And when I see the "no data" in the guide, unplugging the power, and rebooting fixes it every time.

Chris

Originally posted by VideooooGuy
I'm told that the headend workaround for the video tiling bug has been implemented in all Cox locations. If you're still having this problem, please post specifics about what channel, time of day, and exactly what you saw. Thanks for the update and glad to see you are back. As I mentioned I saw the tiling issue last night. I am in Mission Viejo, Orange County, CA and was recording "dr. vegas - Advantage Play" from 10:00-11:00pm last night on 702 (CBS HD). At 10:30pm I started playback of the show while it was still recording and used FF and pause during playback. The first 35 mins of playback had no tiling issues. Around 35 mins into playback I started seeing some "tiles" appear 5 or 6 of them at a time. They remain on the screen for 2 or 3 seconds then dissapear, then 30-60 seconds later come back again in different locations and sizes for another 2-3 seconds. So the tiling is much better than before but definately still there. Obviously my playing of the HD recording and using FF, pause, etc. while it still was recording is what screwed up the remaining recording in this case, so as before there are certain ways to aggravate the problem. I will experiment again on that channel today some more to see if it can be reproduced. Thanks again for the update and reading our feedback.

If I can reproduce the problem I will try and post a snapshot of how the picture looks - unfortunately I deleted the program that had the tiling problem last night or would have posted a snapshot of the problem on that one already.

Would the guide hole" bug also cause what seems to be a long time to download info for the 7th day? I mean take today for example my guide shows info for today through Wednesday and the on Thrusday it shows info until about 6:30 P.M. and at 7 says no data, but if I would of checked yesterday it would say loading info on Thrusday for a longtime the only way I found to fix the loading new data bug is to unplug the 6412 and plug it back in, but then it shows data on the seventh day until 6:30 P.M. and at 7P.M. shows no data.

Andrew Wees

These were from recordings of FOX HD (711) from Cox Orange County, Mission Viejo, CA (zip code 92692) feed at around 12:30pm, October 17, 2004. The tiling happened very badly once I started playing back an HD recording that was still being recorded. These are snapshots with my digital camera:

http://replayguide.sourceforge.net/CIMG0224.JPG

Here's another from the same recording:
http://replayguide.sourceforge.net/CIMG0225.JPG

I'm new to this thread, I'm in Cox, Corona Del Mar, CA area.

I've been using the 6412 for a few weeks. I set up several CBS HD (702) shows to record as series, and usually set to record 1st run only, on their respective days.

Last week it got all shows, this week they were all recorded at zero-length, not too good. I've got several Replays and still got my shows but the 6412 might as well have been off.

Do you have any ideas steps that I can take to work-around this? Like don't set up series recordings? Do you think it's guide "holes" that cause this??

Other thought, is there any chance that there any "discrete" I/R codes like PowerON and PowerOFF, maybe 30second Skip that could be used with programmable remotes like Pronto??

After living with Replays, the 6412 sure needs a 30second skip button!!

What, if anything, is COX in Orange County CA doing to accommodate those of us with RGB-HV analog inputs (Sony 9" CRT projector) when using their 6412 STB? Their technical support people claim that they have a solution for this, but I was wondering if anyone knew what that solution was? If you have it (component to RGB-HV or whatever it is) - how is it working?

Thanks in advance. I searched this thread and was unable to find any info in this.

Ed

I've now read the 18 pages on this thread and agree that it seems that the zero length recording and no subscription seem connected, I see the subscription message all the time, and it clears in a few seconds when watching live but it's literally a showstopper if that's what's killing programmed recordings!

I, like most PVR users have long shifted away from watching almost anything live. I almost never saw the tileing bug as I would only watch pre-recorded material.

I would expect the box to record for the duration of a programmed show, regardless of the message it gets (eg, "no subscription" or "not recordable") hopefully the message would clear before the program started (assuming it's an authorized channel), but in any case it shouldn't abort, especially with no error message to cue the user as to what happened...

I would think that this zero length bug should be first priority since it prevents programmed recording from occuring, which is it's primary mission( I'm recording only HD content with it).

Originally posted by Ed Rempalski
I, like most PVR users have long shifted away from watching almost anything live. I almost never saw the tileing bug as I would only watch pre-recorded material. I time shift everything as well. The problem is if you start watching an HD recording say 20 minutes into the program while it's still recording and ff through commercials, then more often than not the video tiling problem comes up and ruins the remainder of the recording. Or if something is recording in HD and you play back another HD recording and using ff, etc. then there's a good chance it will ruin the recording too. In other words, you have to be extra careful to essentially do nothing related to HD channels while the machine records an HD program, which is ludicrous. I use my 4 ReplayTVs for recording all SD programs, so only HD recordings are of interest to me for the 6412.

Got it, we're in sync.

Well, last night's Joan was struck with the zero length bug. And all day today I've had issues with CBS. Not good.

Yaah, I've got networked Replays all over the house for primary recording. I've got the 6412 on the HT for "best viewing" of HD shows as well as a digital music source for the house (the 2nd tuner really helped here as during school the kids can't watch TV, but like music while doing homework, so now it can still get prime time shows while they listen to music) .

When all the bugs are worked out, this will be a great box. For now, it's an "iffy" proposition. Frankly, I'll be calling in on Monday for a refund of this months DVR charges as it missed Joan, all CSI's this week..

I was thinking about why it worked last week but not this week. I don't know if this matters but;

Initially I had the 6412 in a rear rack, always ON. I was told by a Cox rep that the guide will never update if the unit is always ON.

So I programmed my home control system to sense if the TV or Stereo was on, and then power on the 6412. Otherwise the 6412 is always OFF. So all of the shows that it was supposed to have gotten this week were from an OFF state.

Again, this may not mean anything..

I've had a chance to play more... Currently all of my recordings are set for shows on CBS HD (ch702)

I checked "Series Manager", all shows were there and set up as I last left them.

Checked "Scheduled Recordings", most of the shows WERE NOT shown here, only Cold Case, No CSI's, Without a Trace, or Joan.

Checked the "Program Guide" and scrolled thru the time slots, Only Cold Case showed in ready-to-record RED.

Went back to Series Manager and deleted all series but Cold Case.

Went back to the guide and scrolled to CSI Miami, selected it for recording, It Shows "NOT RECORDABLE". I then tune to 702, get the "Not Subscribed" banner, it clears in about 30 seconds. I go back to the guide and can now select CSI Miami to record as a series, now it works.

I leave the box tuned to 702 and set up the other shows without much problem.

Went to "Scheduled Recordings" and all of the series shows are visible in the que to record.

Went to "Program Guide" and all series shows are Hi-Lighted in Ready-to-record RED.

That was a fun.


One other thing I found regarding conflicts with timeslots;

Example, I set up "Without a Trace" as a series with a 1 minute before show starts, pad setting. I then set up "CSI-Las Vegas" which comes on just before "Without a Trace". It let me set this up, but in checking with the "Scheduled Recordings" and in the Guide (looking for Red HiLight) CSI was NOT set to record.

I then deleted the CSI Series, went to the guide, and just tried to "Record this show", it then showed me an error message that it "can't record overlaped shows" which my padding had caused. I deleted the 1 minute pad, correcting the conflict. But when I went back to the guide to select "CSI-Las Vegas" again, it now showed in the guide Hi-Lighted in Black with the Can't-Record Icon.

I knew that the conflict was cleared, so I pulled power on the box. When it came back, the offending Black Hi-Light was gone and I was able to set up the CSI-Las Vegas Series just fine.

I've changed the Power-On Channel settings from "Last Channel" to "702" to see if that does anything.

The box is so close to being really great, just gotta get these few bugs nailed. HELPFULL ERROR MESSAGES to let us know When and Why things won't record would be a big Plus.

I think Ed Rempalski has the right idea. The fastest way to get these problems fixed is to provide a financial incentive to COX by NOT paying the PVR charge each month you have a failed recording. We should all follow his lead.

By the way - anyone familiar with the COX solution for converting Component video output from the 6412 to RGB-HV for those of us needing it (CRT Projector)?

Thanks.

Ed

CRTs don't usually have DVI ;). You need a transcoder to do it.

Madpoet,

DVI-I connections allow for RGB-HV connections, but I am pretty sure the 6412 has a DVI-D connector. Oh well - I guess some sacrifice is necessary to have the pest possible image on the planet... :)

I was told by COX that they could "accommodate" RGB connections, but I would like to hear from someone who the have "accommodated" to make sure their solution is adequate....

Thanks

Ed

Well, after all that checking... No "Cold Case" tonight. Zero Length Recording, start and end at 7:59pm

I feel confident in saying that since the dual tuner software went live, I can no longer get scheduled recording of HD programmng (at least ch 702).

I'm sad.

Originally posted by Ed Rempalski
Well, after all that checking... No "Cold Case" tonight. Zero Length Recording, start and end at 7:59pm

I feel confident in saying that since the dual tuner software went live, I can no longer get scheduled recording of HD programmng (at least ch 702).

I'm sad. Sounds like a real bad case of the "subscription bug" which in turn causes the 0-minute recordings. Meanwhile my "tiling" issues still continue - surely I can't be the only one left with that issue?

I wouldn't know, I can't record anything!! Guess it's time to leave it alone for a few weeks, till the next update.

Originally posted by moyekj
Meanwhile my "tiling" issues still continue - surely I can't be the only one left with that issue?

My tiling had decreased significantly until this evening, all time shifting resulted in terrible tiling. I did not dare try to record anything. Hey cox guy are you still around?

niesman

Originally posted by niesman
My tiling had decreased significantly until this evening, all time shifting resulted in terrible tiling. I did not dare try to record anything. Hey cox guy are you still around?

niesman

My tiling returned yesterday as well.
Has anyone noticed anything funky with the status bar?
Yesterday, I set the Saints/Cardinals game to record at 3:00. I started watching the game at 3:30. The status bar showed from 3:00 to 4:00, with the green area about in the middle. As I continued to watch, skipping commercials along the way, the actual time indicator actually passed up the green section, which was obviously not moving. Soon the actual time indicator moved completely past the 4:00 mark, and eventually off the screen!!
I was going to take a picture, but I couldn't find my wife's camera. I'll try to get a pic tonight if I can get it to duplicate.

Originally posted by BRBarnyard
The status bar showed from 3:00 to 4:00, with the green area about in the middle. As I continued to watch, skipping commercials along the way, the actual time indicator actually passed up the green section, which was obviously not moving. Soon the actual time indicator moved completely past the 4:00 mark, and eventually off the screen!!

I have noticed the same thing but is did not effect recording or playback. Just seamed to be a display problem with the status bar. I did not report it because, IMHO, it is minor compared to the bugs Cox is working on.

Do you have to leave the 6412 on in order for it to record or will it turn itself on when necessary? Also, while waiting to record something, does it output a signal on the component-out even when you are not watching anything?

I ask because I am trying to figure out how it will effect an automatic signal switcher?

Thanks.

Ed

It doesn't need to be on to record. Not sure about the other.

If it's OFF, it will still record. When Off, the component video looks to be OFF, audio is OFF as well.

I haven't noticed it the box actually turns ON to record, or stays OFF and Records internally like Replays do when recording un-attended.

My news:

My tiling (Cox - Rhode Island) is either gone or much improved. Until last night, I haven't been able to record a single HD program while watching another successfully since the dual-tuner upgrade several weeks ago. Last night, the 6412 survived many such paces. So, my hopes are way up.

I have to agree with the number of folks, like Ed Rempalski, who are/were Replay users and feel that 30-second skip is a very big priority.

Another thing Ed Rempalski brought up that I'll second is looking for a discrete on and discrete off command.

Question for edsuski: How does the 6412 know whether you are watching or not? I submit that it can't read your mind; and therefore, will always put out a signal on the component-out when it is on. I also submit that I'm a bit of a wise-ass -- hope you're cool w/ that ;)

Originally posted by Ed Rempalski
If it's OFF, it will still record. When Off, the component video looks to be OFF, audio is OFF as well.

I haven't noticed it the box actually turns ON to record, or stays OFF and Records internally like Replays do when recording un-attended.

It stays off - but, the red Record light comes on, ala the ReplayTV.

--Walburga

PS: Yes, at least the DVI video and audio are off when that happens. Just like the Replay, the 6412 never really turns completely off.

Someone please start a new thread when the tiling issue is 100% fixed. Not being able to time shift HD sucks.

Additionally, do they have plans to put the browse feature in place on the remote (hitting a left or right arrow then up and down). I hate having to pull up the full guide to see what is on the other channels.

On another note, the remote not being UHF sucks. You have to point it right at it for it to work. Can anyone recommend a good multibrand remote that isn't so precise?

Also, yes this is starting to ramble, I am disappointed in the SD PQ to this point. I tried both DVI and component and they both left a lot to be desired.

Originally posted by BRBarnyard
My tiling returned yesterday as well.
Has anyone noticed anything funky with the status bar?
Yesterday, I set the Saints/Cardinals game to record at 3:00. I started watching the game at 3:30. The status bar showed from 3:00 to 4:00, with the green area about in the middle. As I continued to watch, skipping commercials along the way, the actual time indicator actually passed up the green section, which was obviously not moving. Soon the actual time indicator moved completely past the 4:00 mark, and eventually off the screen!!
I was going to take a picture, but I couldn't find my wife's camera. I'll try to get a pic tonight if I can get it to duplicate.


I've experienced that several times as well.

Also, tiling issue came back again yesterday, even when second tuner was on an analog channel. Anyone else had that happen?

I have only experienced a hole in the guide once or twice, but I leave my box on at all times, and I generally don't advance days. Maybe since I don't advance past the already obtained guide info I have avoided it.

I also had my first zero length recording yesterday on channel 5 (analog). Others believe the zero length recording issue is linked to the subscription bug. There may be a relation, but obviously that wasn't the problem for me last night.

HD Tivo is looking better and better. 6412 is not quite ready for prime time.

Originally posted by rdenichilo
I also had my first zero length recording yesterday on channel 5 (analog). Others believe the zero length recording issue is linked to the subscription bug. There may be a relation, but obviously that wasn't the problem for me last night.


Like you, I've had both HD and Analog channels do zero-length records, so it's definitely not (just) a "no subscription" error issue. If it were, Analog channels would never have the issue.

My best guess is that it's related to the guide hole bug (if it's related to anything else at all). IE: It goes to record but the guide doesn't "match" (being empty) the show and it aborts. Or, maybe both issues cause the bug, IE anything that makes the box not match up the show - either unable to tune or verify that the show is scheduled - will cause the box to abort.

Also, while I'm talking about it, I've had a few series just plain old not record, period. Even though they are in the Series manager, nothing get recorded. I'm at work, but something makes me think they won't be in the list of upcoming scheduled recordings either.

Anyone else have this problem?

--Walburga

Had it last night. I also had a situation last night where I explicitly went in and told it to record a show, swapped tuners, came back after the start time and it wasn't set to record anymore. 2nd time I did it it recorded fine.

Originally posted by rdenichilo
Also, tiling issue came back again yesterday, even when second tuner was on an analog channel. Anyone else had that happen? Yes, this has happened several times to me. My last sample picture with tiling (posted in this thread a few posts ago) happened while recording ABC HD with the other channel tuned to an analog channel. For people having the tiling issue please post details about location, channel etc. as Video Guy has asked - also sample pictures are a big plus.

I also had my first zero length recording yesterday on channel 5 (analog). Others believe the zero length recording issue is linked to the subscription bug. There may be a relation, but obviously that wasn't the problem for me last night.
Wow, that is a big revelation. Since I never record SD with the 6412 (use ReplayTVs instead for those) I have never tried setting up analog recordings so have no history on that. For ReplayTV there is a similar problem (<1 minute recordings) when the signal strength of the source signal is not very strong, so perhaps on analog channels the 6412 suffers from the same problem - i.e. if the analog channel signal strength is not that great the A/D + encoding of the 6412 fails resulting in 0-minute recording. Boosting the signal before any spilts (without boosting noise - i.e. using a quality amp) usually takes care of that problem for ReplayTVs.

Originally posted by gpttigers

Additionally, do they have plans to put the browse feature in place on the remote (hitting a left or right arrow then up and down). I hate having to pull up the full guide to see what is on the other channels.



It is not quite the same, but you can sort-of browse by hitting info twice. You get the left/right/up/down browsing, but more of the screen is gone than before.

I haven't seen any guide holes in my guide, on the missed (zero-length) shows.

Could Cox give the definitive answer to this question;

Will the guide data continue to update, if the DVR is always ON??

I would much prefer to leave it on in my rack.

Thanks

My box is in an always on state in my rack as well, but hidden deep in the "System On" macro is a command that turns it off then back on while everything else is comming to life, this is partially out of necessity since there are not discrete codes for the 6412. My OFF command then leaves the box alone and it stays on. I have never had any problems with the guide though ( that I have noted). But 95% of the time when I am watching I know what I am going to watch before I sit down, so one might say that I am not a robust user of the guide.

VideooooGuy, if you are still reading this thread, please refer to my post a couple of pages back with details and snapshots of the "tiling" bug. Looks like this is still a big issue for many/most for HD recordings. So the "headend" fix has not cleared up this problem yet at many/most sites by the looks of it. This link takes you directly to my post with the snapshots and details:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4442124#post4442124

Thanks again for taking the time to keep us updated on the status of all the bugs.

sophware,

My question was an attempt to see if the 6412, while off, would send out a sync signal that would cause my auto detecting switcher to switch to the STB, - but I think you already knew that........

Ed

It's also worth noting that the firewire output is "off" when the box is off.

-MP

Another data point. Cox OC, Calif. As I watched it miss CSI Miami in HD (ch702), I then;

Quickly deleted the zero length show and Tuned to the show in progress and pressed select to record.

It immediately stopped showing the program and put up the "not subscribed" screen. It created another zero length file.

Tuned to the show again (by pressing chan up and back down) and then pressed the "record" button. This way it began to record the show.

At least the Cox rep I spoke to today told me that I won't have to pay for this thing until it works.

>tiling
The continuous tiling that used to occur is gone, but there is still intermittent tiling. There is garbage for a few seconds then it goes away for 10-15 minutes, then a bit of garbage again similar the the screen shots that were posted.

>Guide hole
Still happening intermittently, unplugging fixes it, but that is annoying

>subscription
I haven't had an 0 length recordings in weeks, nor have a seen the a channel some up as "not subscribed"

It seems we still have all the problems, but not as bad.

But even if they fix most of these problems, I may have to let 6412 go. I am pretty backed up on its hard-drive with nowhere to go. I have about 30 hrs on it with a HD and SD mix.
I was told I would get 25hrs HD or 75hrs SD so I guess 30hrs its about right. I am forced to erase what I haven't seen yet. I want to watch TV comfortably, not play Russian Roulette with the cable box.

I would go out and buy an external hard-drive and plug it in if I could or archive it to disk. I need-more storage.

I understand some of the satellite dishes will allow you those options. I think those options are a good idea at this point.

Originally posted by jb510


>Guide hole
Still happening intermittently, unplugging fixes it, but that is annoying


I have noticed some improvement with the guide hole. Before, I used to have to unplug the box to get updated guide information. Now, when I browse ahead a day or 2 it shows "No Data" for a split second, then for another split second it says "Retrieving Data" and then you have your updated guide, it seems for that day only. This is great in one sense that you don't have to unplug the box anymore, but it worries me that if I didn't jump ahead a day or two, would it have missed my recordings because there would be no data?

I had the "no data" guide problem last night around 6:30pm. A reboot cured that. But both CSI-Miama and Two and a Half Men had the infamous 0-length entries this morning, so nothing got recorded. I assume it's this subscription defect...

Chris

Originally posted by Ed Rempalski

At least the Cox rep I spoke to today told me that I won't have to pay for this thing until it works.

Ed,

What exactly did the rep say. I have complained and the rep I talked to first wanted to transfer me to Tech support, then said that the 6412 service was already being discounted. I am going to call again. I want this thing to work or I am going to satalite ( D*TV or Zoom).

niesman

I see the intermittent tiling issue but the "tiling bug" is definitely gone at this point, I can live with a little video disruption here and there, the tiling bug from before made shows just plain unwatchable. The no data hole keeps biting me in the arse though and I'm missing shows as a result, that will get annoying VERY quickly!
Tom

niesman,

I got the same story last week and did not get a credit. I would be interested in how we work out a credit. I have had many 0-length recordings.

I got a good story for yall. I just called cox and explained the tiling effect with the DVR and she tried to tell me it was due to sun spots and meteor showers. I laughed as soons as she said it and tried to explain that this has been happening with this box for months. Some cox reps are absolutely clueless. She said that they were offering no refunds on the DVR service.

Originally posted by d2tw4all
I see the intermittent tiling issue but the "tiling bug" is definitely gone at this point, I can live with a little video disruption here and there
Tom


The 6214 is a horrible product and there should be zero tolerance for any tiling. The dish TiVo dual tuner product works perfectly and has more than twice the recording capacity. If they can get it right so can others. I am beginning to believe that this is still a bandwidth issue with the 62XX moto series and no fix other than faster chips and more bandwidth will resolve the issues discussed in this forum. It is time to pull the plug on the 62xx series.

niesman

Originally posted by d2tw4all
I see the intermittent tiling issue but the "tiling bug" is definitely gone at this point, I can live with a little video disruption here and there, the tiling bug from before made shows just plain unwatchable. I STRONGLY disagree. The whole point of investing thousands of dollars in HDTV and paying hefty fees for cable HD service is to get much improved video quality over SD video. Anything shy of that is totally worthless to me. HD viewing is worthless if there are any glitches - I'd much rather watch SD with no glitches than settle for HD with glitches. I do agree the tiling is less severe than before the headend update, but to me that does not make it any more acceptable.

In the last firmware with the single tuner the tiling problems were not present. I would even settle for single tuner with the problem gone as an interim fix for now.

Originally posted by moyekj
I STRONGLY disagree.

In the last firmware with the single tuner the tiling problems were not present. I would even settle for single tuner with the problem gone as an interim fix for now.

Yes, I too would "settle" for the single tuner but it would have to be free of charge. We should not have to subsidize beta R&D testing. Hey VideooGuy, are you taking notes?

niesman

My observations on the tiling issue:
It was gone for several days and is back. Over the weekend I could not duplicate it at all. I could tune two different HD channels and swap, ff, rw, pause, etc. to my hearts content and no longer duplicate it.


Last night it was definitly back. It was as easy to duplicate as it had been before, but not as bad when it did occur.

Last night any use of transport buttons(ff, rw, pause, live) while HD was being recorded would produce tiling from that point forward in the recording. The only fix was to change channels and then return to the channel. This would occur even if only one tuner was set to an HD station.

When it did occur it was not as bad as it was before. i.e. there was quite a bit of tiling, but the program was at least watchable. Audio dropouts were rare(one a minute) whereas before they had been very frequent(every few seconds). For programs I was watching almost-live, once I'd started the bug happening, I'd live with it until the commercial, catch-up, and then channel off and back on to fix it. For stuff being recorded, there's not much you can do unless you stay away from the box and don't touch any transport functions during the recording.

Details for Cox if you're listening: This happened to me pretty much all night on several stations. I watched Fear Factor, Raymond, Two and a Half Men, and CSI near-live. Recorded LAX while watching CSI. The problem occured every time I used transport buttons. LAX was OK for the first 15 minutes, which is about the point I first needed to pause CSI on the other tuner. LAX is messed up from that point forward.

Have been lurking on this tread for awhile. First time poster. I live in OC California. Have the 6412 since early September. Activated HDTV yesterday. Even that I was aware of the tiling problem I was still surprised how bad it is. I can't pause FF or REW at all on the HD channels without tiling/tearing and that is very annoying. Happens on any of the HD channels even if the second tuner is set to analog. Have not have the 0 length recordings, but until yesterday I didn't use the box in HDTV. VideoGuy please post if anything is being done to solve this completely. I really think we should not be having any issues with the HD channels period!

More info on the tiling problem.

The headend-based fix I discussed is a bit of a stop-gap. The problem can/will still occur if a particular set of things occurs. It has to do with the specific bandwidth of the HD streams Cox receives from video content providers (like ABC, CBS, ESPN, etc.). The big problem for us is that those streams CHANGE during the course of the day (sometimes 19.2Mbps, sometimes 14.8Mbps, etc.), which affects our multiplexing equipment, which affects whether or not you see the bug. Orange County seems to be particularly hard hit by this issue right now.

So ... we've continued to push forward with other fixes for this problem and still hope to have them installed in the first two weeks of November.

And btw ... this release will also fix the FF bug where hitting play while fast forwarding would put the viewer at an incorrect point in the video stream.

Regarding the "guide hole" bug ...

The problem has been found. It was discovered that although Passport Echo was retrieving guide data and storing it on the hard drive, the data was not being updated in set-top memory unless the box was rebooted or future data became available. If the box was rebooted, Passport would read 7 days of IPG data from the hard drive into memory and the problem would "go away."

Fortunately, there is a workaround Cox is now implementing without requiring a software upgrade in the DCT6412. No later than the end of this week, a reboot (which causes guide data to be re-read off the hard drive into memory) should cure most all occurences of this problem.

A box reboot in Omaha NE still only shown info through 10th.

Also who can I contact about info in the guide being wrong? CRL on Great American Country is hosted by Suzanne Alexander not Ms Dallas Turner

Andrew Wees


Originally posted by VideooooGuy
Regarding the "guide hole" bug ...

The problem has been found. It was discovered that although Passport Echo was retrieving guide data and storing it on the hard drive, the data was not being updated in set-top memory unless the box was rebooted or future data became available. If the box was rebooted, Passport would read 7 days of IPG data from the hard drive into memory and the problem would "go away."

Fortunately, there is a workaround Cox is now implementing without requiring a software upgrade in the DCT6412. No later than the end of this week, a reboot (which causes guide data to be re-read off the hard drive into memory) should cure most all occurences of this problem.

Thank you very much VideooooGuy for the update, would it be too much to ask you to comment on these 2 questions?

1 - Will the guide update if the 6412 is always ON?

2 - Do you have any status on this "zero-Length-recording" bug? And is it related to the "not-subscribed" or "Not -Recordable" message bug.

I'm kinda bummed that I can't get any scheduled HD recordings.

Thanks for any comments!

Originally posted by ajwees41
A box reboot in Omaha NE still only shown info through 10th.

Also who can I contact about info in the guide being wrong? CRL on Great American Country is hosted by Suzanne Alexander not Ms Dallas Turner

Andrew Wees

Perhaps I should have been more clear.

The fix won't be implemented until tonight (at the earliest). That's why I tried to suggest that a reboot later in the week should clear the problem.

Regarding incorrect guide information - Cox receives it's guide information from one of the two national guide data providers. They, in turn, receive guide information directly from the video provider - in your case, Great American Country. Although you can always call your local Cox office, I think your best bet is to contact GMC directly. Check their website for how to do this - I don't happen to know.

Originally posted by Ed Rempalski
Thank you very much VideooooGuy for the update, would it be too much to ask you to comment on these 2 questions?

1 - Will the guide update if the 6412 is always ON?

2 - Do you have any status on this "zero-Length-recording" bug? And is it related to the "not-subscribed" or "Not -Recordable" message bug.

I'm kinda bummed that I can't get any scheduled HD recordings.

Thanks for any comments!

1 - YES.

2 - The zero-length bug is receiving a great deal of debugging attention. And yes, one of the causes is the "not subscribed" situation.

VideooooGuy,

Thanks for the 411. I know you're pretty busy over there in Atlanta and sincerely appreciate you taking the time, when you don't have to, to answer all of our questions. Here in OC like you mentioned, I'm still getting the tiling bug quite frequently, and look forward to when the real "fix" can be pushed out. In the meantime, I can live with it... and personally I've never had a recording fail or tile if I set both tuners to SD channels, turn the box off, and leave it alone while it's recording. Anyway, thanks again.

-T

Originally posted by VideooooGuy
More info on the tiling problem.

The headend-based fix I discussed is a bit of a stop-gap....It has to do with the specific bandwidth of the HD streams Cox receives from video content providers (like ABC, CBS, ESPN, etc.). The big problem for us is that those streams CHANGE during the course of the day (sometimes 19.2Mbps, sometimes 14.8Mbps, etc.), which affects our multiplexing equipment, which affects whether or not you see the bug. Orange County seems to be particularly hard hit........

Thank you VieooooGuy for the update. The problem here is exactly what I suspected, Cox has a bandwidth problem with both transmission and reception. Since the hardware change at the transmission end has not resolved the problem, cox has to come up with a compression algorithm for the receiving end. My crystal ball tells me that when and if the tiling is eliminated poor HDPQ and marco blocking will rule the day.

There is no substitute for horsepower!!!

niesman

Hey, who stole my crystal ball?

. . . My crystal ball tells me that when and if the tiling is eliminated poor HDPQ and marco blocking will rule the day.

There is no substitute for horsepower!!!

niesman [/B][/QUOTE]

Have to agree. I also suspect its a horsepower issue. Moxi (also being offered by Motorola) seems to have gone with better specs. At the end of the day, poor HDPQ is not acceptable. If Cox can't get it fixed with excellent PQ, I will start looking for other sources, and an HD Tivo may be just what the doctor ordered!

Originally posted by dresf
Hey, who stole my crystal ball?

Sorry:D

"marco blocking"??? what's worse, Polo blocking could be around the corner!!

I'm just a simple gearhead, the Cox 6412 PQ on my Pioneer Elite 60" RPTV with component inputs looks fantastic to me. The glitching seems to be more of a sync issue with the stream, when manipulating video, the PQ is normally excellent.

VideooooGuy, one more question,

The Cox rep also told me (along with the incorrect info about guide updates not occuring, if box is ON), that the 6412 would NOT perform a software update if it was left ON at night either.

Will it get a software update if left ON??

And one last question, sorry

Is there any way for the 6412 to provide a FULL picture at all times to my TV? HD Shows usually fill the screen perfectly, but other shows on the HD Channels have black bars. The TV can't be adjusted/zoomed with component video inputs so it's up to the Box to output full video.

I tried the output settings (1080i and stretch to fill screen) but it dosen't seen to do anything.

Any thoughts?

VideooooGuy, thanks very much for keeping us informed - I'm afraid you're the only person providing any useful information and status reports from Cox. The local Cox OC support staff seems largely in the dark about any of these issues.

VideoooGuy or anyone else please enlighten me. I'm still confused about the tiling problem. I don't understand why the headend multiplexing equipment has anything to do with the problem in the first place, given that before with the single tuner firmware there were no such problems?

Also, there are many claims in these forums that before we get the HD feeds that somehow Cox is re-encoding the OTA HD streams to take up less bandwidth and thus the PQ takes a big hit compared to OTA streams. Seems to me that would take an incredible amount of processing to re-encode on the fly so many HD channels at once and then multiplex signals together, so I just can't believe that any re-encoding can be taking place. Can someone explain the process of re-transmission by Cox and perhaps clear up some myths?

Originally posted by niesman
Thank you VieooooGuy for the update. The problem here is exactly what I suspected, Cox has a bandwidth problem with both transmission and reception. Since the hardware change at the transmission end has not resolved the problem, cox has to come up with a compression algorithm for the receiving end. My crystal ball tells me that when and if the tiling is eliminated poor HDPQ and marco blocking will rule the day.

There is no substitute for horsepower!!!

niesman

You are incorrect. I'm happy to help with the facts, but prefer not to reply to unsubstantiated speculation.

Originally posted by moyekj
VideooooGuy, thanks very much for keeping us informed - I'm afraid you're the only person providing any useful information and status reports from Cox. The local Cox OC support staff seems largely in the dark about any of these issues.

VideoooGuy or anyone else please enlighten me. I'm still confused about the tiling problem. I don't understand why the headend multiplexing equipment has anything to do with the problem in the first place, given that before with the single tuner firmware there were no such problems?

Also, there are many claims in these forums that before we get the HD feeds that somehow Cox is re-encoding the OTA HD streams to take up less bandwidth and thus the PQ takes a big hit compared to OTA streams. Seems to me that would take an incredible amount of processing to re-encode on the fly so many HD channels at once and then multiplex signals together, so I just can't believe that any re-encoding can be taking place. Can someone explain the process of re-transmission by Cox and perhaps clear up some myths?

The DCT6412 is a completely new architecture from Motorola. Like I said before, the tiling problem is caused by an interaction between Cox headend gear and the specific HD handling chip used in the Moto DCT6412.

The DCT6412 tiling problem is caused when Cox DOES NOT reduce the bandwidth of HD transmissions (this technology is called HD Rate Shaping). If you are curious about how this works, look at the BMR product from a company called BigBand Networks. Start with this white paper:

http://www.bigbandnet.com/tech_whitepaper_chan_mult.php

Originally posted by VideooooGuy


The DCT6412 tiling problem is caused when Cox DOES NOT reduce the bandwidth of HD transmissions (this technology is called HD Rate Shaping).

Thanks again VideoooGuy!

Rate shaping aside, is cox in the process of efficiently mapping the head-end multiplexing and converting SD to mpeg-2 to reclaim bandwidth (I assume that the quick fix attempt involved some kludgey attempt at this)?

Also, is cox confident that the existing chip set in the 6412 is capable of handling two full bandwidth HD signals simultaneously?

niesman

Originally posted by VideooooGuy
You are incorrect. I'm happy to help with the facts, but prefer not to reply to unsubstantiated speculation.

I will try to refrain from speculation:D Please understand VideoGooGuy that we (I) am grateful that someone from Cox has stepped up to the plate to inform us what is really going on. Most of what I post in this particular forum has been the result of complete frustration and disappointment with Cox's candor with regard to its HD programming. It is obvious to anyone who has the 6412 that the launch of this product was rushed. As a result there is a backlash from which Cox may have a hard time recovering from. My Christmas list now has a Direct TV subscription and a Dual tuner Tivo HD unit at the very top. Hopefully I will be able to replace it with a new DVD player;)

niesman

Originally posted by niesman
. . . Please understand VideoGooGuy that we (I) am grateful that someone from Cox has stepped up to the plate to inform us what is really going on. Most of what I post in this particular forum has been the result of complete frustration and disappointment with Cox's candor with regard to its HD programming. It is obvious to anyone who has the 6412 that the launch of this product was rushed. As a result there is a backlash from which Cox may have a hard time recovering from. My Christmas list now has a Direct TV subscription and a Dual tuner Tivo HD unit at the very top. Hopefully I will be able to replace it with a new DVD player;)

niesman

My thoughts as well. Thank you for your input VideoGooGuy

Originally posted by niesman
Thanks again VideoooGuy!

Rate shaping aside, is cox in the process of efficiently mapping the head-end multiplexing and converting SD to mpeg-2 to reclaim bandwidth (I assume that the quick fix attempt involved some kludgey attempt at this)?

Also, is cox confident that the existing chip set in the 6412 is capable of handling two full bandwidth HD signals simultaneously?

niesman

Sorry, but your first paragraph doesn't make sense to me. We work hard to efficiently multiplex HD and SD signals to "fill up" a QAM256 channel (modulation technology that puts ~38.8Mbps into a 6Mhz RF channel). All digital channels are sent in MPEG-2 format, regardless of whether they are via over-the-air broadcast or carried on a cable TV plant.

I am 100% confident the 6412 can handle THREE full-bandwidth HD signals simultaneously (two incoming to disk and one coming off the disk for viewing). I personally witnessed this and discussed it with Moto engineers during development of the DCT6412. Trust me, this isn't a bandwidth or CPU issue in the 6412.

Originally posted by Ed Rempalski

...

The Cox rep also told me (along with the incorrect info about guide updates not occuring, if box is ON), that the 6412 would NOT perform a software update if it was left ON at night either.

Will it get a software update if left ON??

Is there any way for the 6412 to provide a FULL picture at all times to my TV? HD Shows usually fill the screen perfectly, but other shows on the HD Channels have black bars. The TV can't be adjusted/zoomed with component video inputs so it's up to the Box to output full video.

Any thoughts? [/B]

YES - the 6412 will definitely receive both guide data updates and guide software updates if left ON. The one in my office received a test version of the "early november" release earlier today. It simply rebooted itself and voila, the new code was loaded.

Unfortunately, some HD content providers insert sidebars ("black bars") prior to sending the video stream to Cox. The 6412 does not have the intelligence to detect these static screen areas and remove them for viewers. I would also like to see this changed - but to the best of my knowledge there is no near-term "fix".

Originally posted by VideooooGuy
I am 100% confident the 6412 can handle THREE full-bandwidth HD signals simultaneously (two incoming to disk and one coming off the disk for viewing). I personally witnessed this and discussed it with Moto engineers during development of the DCT6412. Trust me, this isn't a bandwidth or CPU issue in the 6412.

I totally agree. To me, it's quite obvious that the unit can handle the bandwidth. Look at all of the posts from people that reported times when the tiling problem could not be reproduced. I've also experienced this intermittently from time to time. To me, this proves that the unit can work as designed. Further, it's clear to me that Cox is working diligently on these bugs and will ultimately be successful. In fact, I am impressed by the speed at which things are being accomplished.

IMHO these are the types of problems one should expect to encounter as early adopters of a new product. Personally, I've been waiting for quite a while for Cox to come out with this service and I am happier to get it earlier, rather than later.

I think the tiling problem is very close to being fixed, but I speculate that it may take a firmware update in addition to the central office fix. In the mean time, I am quite impressed by the speed of the fix and the reduction in severity of the tiling problem. In addition, there are workarounds, which for me, work 100% of the time, if you are willing to go back to the functionality of the single tuner solution (search for my work-around post).

Finally, I like to add to the other sentiments and thank VideoooGuy for participating in the forum. I've found his comments to be extremely helpful and insightful and would strongly urge him to continue keeping us informed. Thanks again!

VideoooooooGuy:

Thanks for your help and input, and I admire your ability to not get totally sarcastic and frustrated with some of the posts lately. Kudo's to your professionalism. It all goes back to one of my favorite sayings: "Those who think they know it all are especially annoying to those of us who do"

We all appreciate your feedback and candor with what I feel is going to be a quality product. Even with the bugs one can see the potential and I am glad to have it. Most of us hanging here from time to time are AV geeks and enjoy having a place to discuss things with others of the same and we get carried away and probably bag and rag too much.

Thanks alot for your help and insights

Videoooooguy:

There was some discussion recently about whether the 6412 is capable of doing PIP using both tuners. Some seem to think that it would not be possible because it would need to have two MPEG decoders and would need to be able to display two streams simultaneously. Can you comment on this? Will two-tuner PIP ever be possible on the 6412?

Originally posted by dresf
...... "Those who think they know it all are especially annoying to those of us who do

dresf,

I never have claimed to know everything, I am only commenting on what I have observed. I have yet to record two HD channels simultaneously and view a third off the hard drive. This is what this instrument is supposed to do. I am a scientist for a mass spectrometer manufacturer. If we released an instrument with this many bugs in its basic operation we would be out of business. I have seen many a bread board to alpha that have died in beta testing and never saw a paying customer.

niesman

Whoa there partner, that comment was not meant for you specifically, but as a general term applicable to each one of us somewhere along the thread, and more to the point I was poking fun at myself. Note where I used the term "we" down toward the bottom.

From what I can tell you have a great deal of insight and knowledge in this area and I take what you have had to say as valuable as well. Keep on keepin on!


Out

I also wanted to "pile-on" with thanks to Cox for the work they're doing to make this service better. It is nice that someone from Cox is not only monitoring, but contributing to this forum. That is pretty rare, because usually as soon as someone from the "company" chimes in, they get inundated with complaints and whining and are forced to leave. Because of this and people quoting/misquoting things that are said, many companies simply will not post to forums. If we're not really careful we'll lose the insight we're getting from videooguy.

Videoooguy, thanks for your professionalism and knowing when you can add value and when to avoid a fight. -No repsonse to this post necessary, save your time.

I do get extremly frustrated with some of the bugs, but as I look at how far we've come in such a short time I'm encouraged by it. Sure, we've been participants in what I'd call a "public beta", but in the meantime we've been able to timeshift HD programming.(Yes, we have to jump through hoops to avoid bugs) I've desparately wanted this since first getting HD a year ago and being stuck with the Network schedules. This was tough after 3 years of Tivo freedom.

Think how far we've come in the past 8 weeks. Remember the first release, searching for a program by name when you could only type the first letter?

If Cox had waited another 3 months to release the box, many of these issues might have been fixed, but I'd have missed out on 3 months of timeshifting HD. Having what I've had and seeing that it's getting better quickly has justified the $5 a month so far.

Cox certainly has some serious bugs to work through. Since they're making quick progress and I don't have $900-1000 just lying around for an HD DirectTivo, I see no reason to jump ship yet.

OK, stepping off soapbox now.

Cheers,
Ray

Originally posted by dresf
Whoa there partner

I guess I am a little touchy today, The Yankees can not seem.....

check that Shetfield just Homered!!:D
neisman

Thank you VideooooGuy again for the excellent information, it's so great when we get such nice direct answers.

Please, if you wouldn't mind, post to this forum a heads up when any patches are que'd up for distribution.

Since I'm in the "lucky" part of the OC area, unable to record any scheduled HD programming right now, I'm especially anxious to see any kind of patch come my way.

Thanks again, it's really nice to have you here!

Originally posted by gb61
Videoooooguy:

There was some discussion recently about whether the 6412 is capable of doing PIP using both tuners. Some seem to think that it would not be possible because it would need to have two MPEG decoders and would need to be able to display two streams simultaneously. Can you comment on this? Will two-tuner PIP ever be possible on the 6412?

This is a bit of a "Yes and No" answer.

The current 6412 is not capable of full PIP - this isn't a Motorola limitation, but a limitation of current HD processing chips. The good news is that Moto is already working on incorporating an updated version of the core HD chip. Naturally, there will be updated software to support the new chip. We expect this sometime in mid-2005.

wow, so glad comcast is holding off on the 6412 release. looks like cox jumped to soon with an ugly result. i'm happy to hold on to the 6208 until the 6412 is ready for primetime. as far as the pip function, it should eventually be offered with a software upgrade, motorola's 6412 remote has the buttons for pip so looks like they planned the hardware for it. but you have your hands full at the moment fixing the basics. good luck!

Motorola dvr upgrades
VideoooooooGuy is cox looking to add the ability to watch a program recorded on a dvr on a non dvr box?

Andrew Wees

VideooooGuy,
Thanks for your comments, this will be a great box once the bugs are worked out.

Do you know if the 6412 is capable of a 30 second skip feature?

I have had the 6412 for a little over a month now and have had v9.11 for a couple weeks. I am happy to report that I have had no problems with the box. Including recording HD and swaping to another HD channel. I am not sure what they have done different in Omaha, but it seems to be working. (Of course I probably just jinxed myself.)

The only issue I have come across was that last night for some reason I lost my season record option for the series Lost. It was listed in the manager, but it was not setup to record. The system would not allow me to record the HD version, so I assumed I had a space issue and got rid of some old stuff, blew away the series record and started over again, it worked just fine. Strange thing is my other series are still setup just fine.

OK I'm gonna say this just once. I'm really disheartened by what I've read here, so many people are complaining that "cox jumped in too early" or that we are all beta testers or that they didn't do enough testing. I've been waiting for this technology for a YEAR now, suffering with SD through my Replay 5040 on my nice Panasonic LCD projection TV. EVERY channel looked like a$$ even at High Quality, but I didn't want to go to HD because there are like what, 5 channels, and I didn't want to give up my PVR. My replay broke several times, once I had to resolder the IR receiver in the replay because of cold solder joints, the other I had to replace the HDD, which was a royal PITA for me because I lost all my scheduled recordings. So now I have the cox DVR which costs me the EXACT SAME AMOUNT as my replay service only I get HDTV AS WELL AS a 120 gig DVR with dual tuner capability, etc... What's TIVO service cost these days? MORE THAN THE COX SERVICE. So does replay, and you don't get dual tuners with replay... So the way I look at it, you get a single box solution for DVR recording, HDTV content and while buggy, HDTV recording, DUAL TUNER capabilities and a 120 gig recording capacity, for LESS than you can get it anywhere else! I don't care if it's buggy, it's still a really good deal in my opinion! I'd MUCH rather have the buggy setup NOW and watch cox slowly fix it than have had to wait another 6 months or a year for everything to be PERFECT and have to have dealt with my old replaytv for all that time! Videooooguy, THANK YOU for giving us this information and PLEASE continue to keep us informed, we all appreciate having the information you have been providing more than you know! Stop whining everyone, by all means continue to report problems you have but we are LUCKY LUCKY LUCKY to have access to this technology at all! DirecTV SUCKS by the way, you can see the digital pixellation on regular TV sets, let alone an HDTV! I'd never consider sat tv over cable any day!
Tom

(Big Exhale) (Sigh) Finally a voice of pragmatic reason d2tw4all. Well put indeed.

My exact sentiments!

Originally posted by d2tw4all
... I'd MUCH rather have the buggy setup NOW and watch cox slowly fix it than have had to wait another 6 months or a year for everything to be PERFECT and have to have dealt with my old replaytv for all that time! Videooooguy, THANK YOU for giving us this information...

Ditto!

Originally posted by dresf
(Big Exhale) (Sigh) Finally a voice of pragmatic reason d2tw4all. Well put indeed.
My exact sentiments!

Ditto!

Has anyone noticed the HD quality dropping significantly in the last few days? It might have just been a unique situation but watching a recording of "American Wedding" off of HBO-HD the other day frequently pixelates (over compression on the whole image, not the localaized "garbage" we've been talking about so much) on fast action and scene changes. It actually looks worse then NBC-HD did during the Olympics which was really bad on fast action closeups.

Is this because of the 6412? or is it the broadcasters fault?

Well said d2tw4all ... my feelings too. My original frustrations with the 9.11 release was not knowing if Cox is listening. Now that we are getting feedback from VideooooGuy and Cox is providing fixes faster than I thought possible, IMHO, this is a great product. I am no longer frustrated and can live with the bugs a little while longer knowing a fix is around the corner.

Keep up the great work VideooooGuy and the rest of the Cox team. Thanks for providing feedback letting us know our problems are not falling on deaf ears.

Originally posted by BRBarnyard
VideooooGuy,
Thanks for your comments, this will be a great box once the bugs are worked out.

Do you know if the 6412 is capable of a 30 second skip feature?

See this thread...

DCT6208 30-Sec. Skip Forward Works (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=416868)

I'm fairly confident the same code works on the DCT 6412. This feature REALLY belong on the standard remote, although I don't mind too much since I'm not a fan of the standard remote to being with. Too many buttons, the whole A, B, C button arrangement is poor, I'd rather scroll through a menu on the screen highlighting choices and then click select to chose them... I digress... good luck with the 30-sec skip.

I'll try it tonight.

I had programmed a Pronto macro for FF 3 times, wait a few sec, then replay to jump about 1 minute. It worked but after the dual tuner update it was less reliable.

I currently press FF 3 times and watch for programming, the hit replay to jump back a pinch. It's Ok, but not a Replay

Originally posted by jb510
See this thread...

DCT6208 30-Sec. Skip Forward Works (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=416868)

I'm fairly confident the same code works on the DCT 6412. This feature REALLY belong on the standard remote, although I don't mind too much since I'm not a fan of the standard remote to being with. Too many buttons, the whole A, B, C button arrangement is poor, I'd rather scroll through a menu on the screen highlighting choices and then click select to chose them... I digress... good luck with the 30-sec skip.

Thanks,
I've tried that though... along with a few other unused codes. I think they may have removed the function from the box, which is why I asked.

Originally posted by BRBarnyard
Thanks,
I've tried that though... along with a few other unused codes. I think they may have removed the function from the box, which is why I asked.

I have also tried the codes posted here as well as another I found on RemoteCentral.com. Can't seem to get them to work on the 6412. Anyone else have any luck?

VideooooGuy. Now that the major bugs are identified and being worked on was wondering if you could comment on some future enhancements we can expect. Of course there are many things on people's wishlists, but among the top I can think of:

1. external hard drive storage (most likely using firewire as you alluded to earlier)
2. 30-second skip
3. 12+ days in the guide (current limit of 6-7 is not enough)
4. Multi-room thin clients - i.e. Ability to playback recordings from the 6412 on other TVs in the house (using a thin client on each TV).
5. Categories for organizing scheduled and recorded programs (like ReplayTV does)

Thanks as always for any info you can provide. Also, if there is a Cox email or phone number you can provide us to nominate you for outstanding customer support please let us know - you deserve it.

Originally posted by moyekj
if there is a Cox email or phone number you can provide us to nominate you for outstanding customer support please let us know - you deserve it.

Great idea!!

Originally posted by moyekj
Also, if there is a Cox email or phone number you can provide us to nominate you for outstanding customer support please let us know - you deserve it.


I COMPLETELY agree on this one! I too VERY MUCH MISS the 30 second skip, I'd bet they yanked it because they don't want people skipping the commercials but I still think it should be there, other units have it, it's a VERY useful feature of a PVR! I REALLY miss my commercial advance in my ReplayTV, I know I'll never see that feature again but I really do wish at least a 30 second skip was available. External storage OR a bigger HDD would definitely be a help, also ethernet capability like the ReplayTV that lets you change the scheduling options and watch recorded content from other boxes would be HUGE!
Tom

Originally posted by moyekj
VideooooGuy. Now that the major bugs are identified and being worked on was wondering if you could comment on some future enhancements we can expect. Of course there are many things on people's wishlists, but among the top I can think of:

1. external hard drive storage (most likely using firewire as you alluded to earlier)
2. 30-second skip
3. 12+ days in the guide (current limit of 6-7 is not enough)
4. Multi-room thin clients - i.e. Ability to playback recordings from the 6412 on other TVs in the house (using a thin client on each TV).
5. Categories for organizing scheduled and recorded programs (like ReplayTV does)

Thanks as always for any info you can provide. Also, if there is a Cox email or phone number you can provide us to nominate you for outstanding customer support please let us know - you deserve it.

Ummm ... I'm not a customer support guy ... just a corporate engineering guy that very much wants our top customers (you guys) to know we're listening and working on fixing these issues.

I've seen a number of questions about whether Cox is considering this or that. The answer to most of these is YES, we have a long product roadmap in front of us to enhance the DVR product. Unfortunately, I just can't comment on specific product plans in a public forum such as this.

Could you play charades to give us hints? ;) Seriously though, we very much appreciate the interaction.

Originally posted by VideooooGuy
Ummm ... I'm not a customer support guy ... just a corporate engineering guy that very much wants our top customers (you guys) to know we're listening and working on fixing these issues.

I've seen a number of questions about whether Cox is considering this or that. The answer to most of these is YES, we have a long product roadmap in front of us to enhance the DVR product. Unfortunately, I just can't comment on specific product plans in a public forum such as this. I understand on not being able to comment... it was worth a shot anyway :). I've not seen any kind of roadmap at Pioneer Digital (Passport Echo) web site which was why I was curious. Also, didn't mean to imply you are a customer support guy - it's very obvious from the detailed technical insights you demonstrate that you are in engineering - was just looking for some way to show how grateful we are for your interaction here beyond just the thank you's.

The Pioneer software already supports 30-sec skip but Cox management has chosen to disable this feature. Commercials are a significant source of revenue for Cox and it doesn't want customers skipping them.

what updates are the 6412 getting in november?

Andrew Wees

Originally posted by bfdtv
The Pioneer software already supports 30-sec skip but Cox management has chosen to disable this feature. Commercials are a significant source of revenue for Cox and it doesn't want customers skipping them.

This is why I think TiVo will come back and win the DVR game IF they ever release the long rumored CableCard based DVR. They have a model where they derive revenue from value added features and selling their own advertising so they don't have to be beholden to the content providers like the cable co's are.

I, like the vast majority of people here, am a tech geek. I can figure out and work with whatever convoluted interface software is out there. I used to think TiVo had "dummy" friendly software, now I realize it is just infinitely better software. I miss 30 sec skip, TiVo suggestions, wishlists that are both category and keyword based and folders to organize my recorded programs. I miss easy to navigate and read menus. These are things I never valued until they were gone.

One thing about suggestions though, it wouldn't do any good on my DCT6412, because it is chronically out of space 100% of the time. My TiVo always had several hours of free space on it to record suggestions.

Of course more than anything I couldn't live without HD recording, and don't want to spend $1k for HD DirecTiVo... so that's why I'm here a happy, but not ecstatic, user of a DCT6412 with Passport Echo.


My DCT6412 Wishlist
1) More storage, more storage, MORE STORAGE!
2) 2 weeks of guide data
3) Folders to organize recordings by program name, wishlist, etc...
4) 30 second skip

It just goes to prove the old saying, you can't please all the people all the time. For me, ever since seeing HD for the first time in my house, all I wanted to due was to be able to record it and since I had the 811, that was not possible. I can't believe the volume of people in this thread who whine. Get over it. If you don't like the product, return it. No one is forcing you to use it.

Now that I have switched to Cox and this box and I can record HD with no problem for a net increase in cost of about $8 over regular cable prices. To me, it is awesome. I time shifted HD last night and have a backlog of about 3 hours of HD programming to watch.

AWWW man I recorded SD of CSI last night and it just stopped at 9:45 for some reason, when I looked in the show list it showed the record time as 9:00 to 9:45 with the 9:45 with a yellow tint, WTF is up with that! I would be VERY VERY VERY surprised if Tivo gets away with offering a commercial free service, replaytv got litigated out of existence (originally sonicblue) because of "commercial advance" and if anybody else with the kind of customer base that Tivo has tried to circumvent commercials they would also suffer from the wrath of the industry. I never expect to see commercial-less recording, after seeing what happened to ReplayTV... PLEASE OH PLEASE a 30 second skip would really be nice though!
Tom

I can't believe the volume of people in this thread who whine. Get over it. If you don't like the product, return it. No one is forcing you to use it.I realize you're new, but those kinds of comments are unproductive and not appreciated.

This is what these threads are for- people tend to complain about problems they're having. It's to be expected.

VideooooGuy. Update on the "Guide Hole" problem you mentioned should be fixed by end of this week. I haven't seen any guide holes this week, so looks like perhaps the problem is fixed. One problem/observation however: In Scheduled Recordings list I only saw scheduled recordings for Monday even though there was supposed to be at least one recording per day from Monday to Thursday. So I brought up the Guide and then used Day+ to scroll ahead in the Guide until Thursday - along the way I got notices of Guide being loaded and No Data being populated with information. After that I returned to Scheduled Recordings list and then I see all the upcoming recordings I expected.

So, it seems like right now one has to "force" the guide to update by scrolling in the guide a few days ahead, else the 6412 won't contain information beyond 2-3 days. Is this known/expected behavior? My guess is by doing the scroll ahead the information is paged into memory - so I wonder if guide information changes on disk that the paged memory would also update?

Thanks.

Does the current 6412 software allow for firewire attached storage? I know this is part of the plan, but don't know if the current code supports this.

Thanks,
Mike

Originally posted by MikeSM
Does the current 6412 software allow for firewire attached storage? I know this is part of the plan, but don't know if the current code supports this.

Thanks,
Mike Yes, to D-VHS tapes.

I never got a guide for PassPort. Anyone know where I can get one? Thanks JOE

moyekj (or anyone else who knows), I have had my 6412 for a couple of weeks now. However, I do not know how to skip ahead days on the guide. You mentioned a Day+ key? My remote does not have one. Or is it some other key or combination of keys to get the guide to skip ahead a day at a time. It is a pain to go ahead by an hour at a time. Let me know how it's done. Thanks, BOB

moyekj, I have the 6208 box and don't know if the remote is the same or not, but in case it is, below the cursor keys in the middle of the remote are two buttons labeled "-" and "+" with "Day" in between them. This key advances the guide one day at a time either forward or backwards. Also, above the cursor keys are are two similar page keys for paging through the guide a page at a time.

Tom
<><

Originally posted by rstang8691
moyekj (or anyone else who knows), I have had my 6412 for a couple of weeks now. However, I do not know how to skip ahead days on the guide. You mentioned a Day+ key? My remote does not have one. Or is it some other key or combination of keys to get the guide to skip ahead a day at a time. It is a pain to go ahead by an hour at a time. Let me know how it's done. Thanks, BOB I use a universal remote that I had programmed for the 6200 (which I believe had Day+/-). You're right though, the Cox remote doesn't have these buttons - but you can get these using a learning remote. I didn't realize until now the Cox remote doesn't have them - that would be a royal pain to live without it.

Hey Guys,

See if you have B&C buttons. On my 6208 remote the very small print above the B&C buttons say DAY- & DAY+.

Hope this helps,

Ben Music

Find a program Press the number key
to record X days representing the number
in the future of days into the future you
want to record and
immediately press key forward arrow key.









Originally posted by rstang8691
moyekj (or anyone else who knows), I have had my 6412 for a couple of weeks now. However, I do not know how to skip ahead days on the guide. You mentioned a Day+ key? My remote does not have one. Or is it some other key or combination of keys to get the guide to skip ahead a day at a time. It is a pain to go ahead by an hour at a time. Let me know how it's done. Thanks, BOB

http://www.cox.com/support/digitalcable/dvr/pdf/dvr_mot_6412.pdf

page 5

Find a program Press the number key
to record X days representing the number
in the future of days into the future you
want to record and
immediately press forward arrow key.






Originally posted by rstang8691
moyekj (or anyone else who knows), I have had my 6412 for a couple of weeks now. However, I do not know how to skip ahead days on the guide. You mentioned a Day+ key? My remote does not have one. Or is it some other key or combination of keys to get the guide to skip ahead a day at a time. It is a pain to go ahead by an hour at a time. Let me know how it's done. Thanks, BOB

Have you heard of a reason why certain unsubscribed channels can be viewed? I have a 6412 and also a Motorola dct 2000 that both get the same two Spanish channels when we don't subscribe to the Spanish Channels.

Andrew Wees

AJWEES41, Thanks for the reply to Day+ question. It works! The tech did not have a user guide with him, and local office did not have one either. Thanks for the link to the manual. Always good to have one!

The remote that came with my 6412 has "day+" and "day-" buttons :confused: .

Originally posted by Brett Miles
The remote that came with my 6412 has "day+" and "day-" buttons :confused: .

Same with mine from Cox. Near the On Demand button.

using the number keys and then right OR left arrows works really well.

Pressing "2" the right arrow jumps 2 days ahead, from where you currently are.

Pressing a number and left arrow, jumps back that number of days.

I played around with it and I can go 99 days ahead, but it has no info since the boxes can only hold 7 days of info.

Andrew

Originally posted by moyekj
I haven't seen any guide holes this week, so looks like perhaps the problem is fixed.
I had a half day missing yesterday. Last time I tried to reboot by turning the power off and back on, it didn't help, which makes sense since the guide, once it is downloaded, is stored on the disk drive. I'm still getting tiling, but not too bad.

Originally posted by jb510

My DCT6412 Wishlist
1) More storage, more storage, MORE STORAGE!
2) 2 weeks of guide data
3) Folders to organize recordings by program name, wishlist, etc...
4) 30 second skip
Don't forget about adding back the channel hide/skip function.

You have to unplug it and plug it back in that is only way to fix the guide hole bug.

Andrew Wees


Originally posted by sucha deal!
I had a half day missing yesterday. Last time I tried to reboot by turning the power off and back on, it didn't help, which makes sense since the guide, once it is downloaded, is stored on the disk drive. I'm still getting tiling, but not too bad.

Anyone upgraded from the 6208 who can comment on the fan/hd noise difference (if any) between the 2 units.

The 6214 is significantly noisier. On the good side, I just received my Harmony 676 remote, all aspects of the guide, info, and all general functions of the echo passport system are 1000% faster! I highly recommend dumping the existing remote for a harmony.

niesman:)

Since the "fix" for the pixelization problem has been rolled out by Cox, has anyone else noticed a decrease in HD picture quality? To me, it looks as if they've just cranked down the resolution or the bit rate so all the hardware (head end or other) could handle the multiple signals.

I got a letter today from Cox that we will finally receive the dual tuner software on the 13th. I guess I'll finally be able to see what kind of "fun" you guys have been having ;) .

I have a question for you guys, I'm looking for a good all in one remote that's not too expensive but will control my devices. What I'm most concerned about is the DVR functions and my Panasonic 50" LCD projection TV, I was looking at the ALL for ONE IR/RF remote unit that Best Buy has which looked good but was missing some of the features like an aspect button, etc... I know it's a learning remote so I could always teach it those functions but I was wondering what people's opinions are...
Tom

Well Brett I hope you have better luck in Kansas with dual tuners. This is my 2nd week of NO SCHEDULED HD RECORDINGS POSSIBLE.

I really hope that Cox is pushing hard on this, as my box might as well be a door stop. When I check the saved shows, I've got a week of zero length recordings.

Obnoxious mpeg tileing is one thing, but this bug is a Fatal Flaw for me.

Plueeeeeese Cox, help me!!

After a couple of weeks without my display, I have it back and here is my skinny on how its (the 6412) doin since we parted ways. Tiling is nearly absent. Rarely see it. I can record HD, turn to another HD channel and see it in its pristine beauty w/o tiling. I can also record two HD programs and have both viewable without tiling as well. I have NOT seen the subscription error. It is functioning. I'm sure I'll run into some bugs but when you have been without for 3 weeks it looks pretty darn good. Apparently absence does make the heart grow fonder (or some sappy crap like that).

Originally posted by d2tw4all
I have a question for you guys, I'm looking for a good all in one remote that's not too expensive but will control my devices. What I'm most concerned about is the DVR functions and my Panasonic 50" LCD projection TV, I was looking at the ALL for ONE IR/RF remote unit that Best Buy has which looked good but was missing some of the features like an aspect button, etc... I know it's a learning remote so I could always teach it those functions but I was wondering what people's opinions are...
Tom I recently bought the MX-500 per recommendation from a friend. Aside from a slew of hard pre-labeled buttons it also has an LCD where you can bind up to 20 functions per device. It has good builtin codes for most devices, has loads of memory for learning commands from other remotes, and the ability to edit the LCD button text to be whatever you want means you don't have to bind functions to buttons with wrong label. Having the original remotes certainly is a big plus to get the full functionality onto the MX-500. You can get it for under $100 these days. For a thorough review of the MX-500:
http://www.remotecentral.com/mx500/

Here in Orange County I still get the HD tiling issue if I don't take all the usual precautions - tune both tuners to SD channels and leave the 6412 off during any recording. Still got the tiling bug this week anyway on a couple of recordings. Aside from that though this week I had no guide hole issues and only 1 0-minute recording. I sincerely hope the next firmware update in November will clear up these remaining bugs. I have told a couple of friends at work to wait to see if the bugs clear up in November before they jump in on the Cox DVR.

Originally posted by moyekj
I recently bought the MX-500 per recommendation from a friend. Aside from a slew of hard pre-labeled buttons it also has an LCD where you can bind up to 20 functions per device. It has good builtin codes for most devices, has loads of memory for learning commands from other remotes, and the ability to edit the LCD button text to be whatever you want means you don't have to bind functions to buttons with wrong label. Having the original remotes certainly is a big plus to get the full functionality onto the MX-500. You can get it for under $100 these days. For a thorough review of the MX-500:
http://www.remotecentral.com/mx500/

Thanks for the reply, I actually have an RCA 1010 touch screen remote but my wife won't go NEAR it because she doesn't like the touch screen. I was looking at the ONE FOR ALL URC9910 RF/IR remote but I'm thinking it doesn't have enough flexibility to do everything with the PVR functions and my TV as well as the combo DVD/VCR that I have. It looks like their KAMELEON unit might support everything I have but I'm just not sure and I don't want to shell out money for a remote that doesn't meet my needs... Thanks for the suggestion, I think I'm looking for something more traditional in terms of buttons (no touch screen) but that will support the features of all my devices... Perhaps it's too much to ask, I may give that 9910 a try though because it has learning functionality and maybe it will do it, anyone else have suggestions?
Tom

Originally posted by d2tw4all
Thanks for the suggestion, I think I'm looking for something more traditional in terms of buttons (no touch screen) but that will support the features of all my devices... You're welcome. Note that the LCD buttons on the MX-500 are REAL buttons, not touch screen - I can't stand touch screen either. The text on the LCD next to each button is what identifies it and can be edited.

I like my 500 also. If you really get into it, you can buy the device that hooks to your PC and really expand the capability.

This is your captain speaking, this flight (thread) has been hijacked by well meaning but armed thread terrorists. Please cooperate with them and nobody will get hurt. Please feel free to enjoy our in-flight movie.:D

NOW THAT WILL TEACH ME FOR NOT READING FULLY! That seems just about perfect, did you get a good deal on it? Does it work well with the Mototora that this thread really pertains to?
Tom

Originally posted by d2tw4all
NOW THAT WILL TEACH ME FOR NOT READING FULLY! That seems just about perfect, did you get a good deal on it? Does it work well with the Mototora that this thread really pertains to?
Tom $90 here:
http://www.bluedo.com/bluedocgi/product.cgi?model=MX-500
Works very well with 6200/6412. Better stop hijacking this thread as mentioned - sorry dresf.

Originally posted by jlawlertnf
Since the "fix" for the pixelization problem has been rolled out by Cox, has anyone else noticed a decrease in HD picture quality? To me, it looks as if they've just cranked down the resolution or the bit rate so all the hardware (head end or other) could handle the multiple signals.

I have noticed that too. HBO HD is horrible. I also get HD via OTA, and I did not used to see any noticeable difference between OTA and Cox, I do now. Dallas/NY game on Fox this morning has a CONSIDERABLE difference in PQ between OTA and Cox.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed the decrease in PQ, but it would seem most others have not.
Is there anyone else????
To me, there's a dramatic difference between the HD I was getting a few weeks ago and now. I'm trying to determine if it's only a problem in certain areas, or if it really is related to the widespread "fix" Cox has implemented on the pixelization problem with this box.

Wow, I see what you guys are talking about today - Football on CBS HD here in Orange County, CA is absolutely AWFUL today. Any motion makes thousands of little squares all over the video. Analog CBS viewed via TV tuner is much more watchable.
VideoooooGuy, watever headend changes were made to address the tiling issue need to be undone - the tiling issue is still there anyway and now HD is just unwatchable.

I must be lucky but have had a great week with the 6412 :)

No 0 length recording and no tiling issues in the last 7 days. I have recorded 2 HD programs at the same time and recorded while watching another previously recorded program using using ff and rewind with no problems. At least in CT, it seams to be working as is should.

As for HD PQ ... I don't see much difference between OTA and Cox. I compared Cox feed of CBS' Pats gave to the OTA feed. Not a noticeable difference in PQ. I have not seen the motion artifacts, in either football or NASCAR, reported by moyekj.

Hope I didn't jinx myself :p

PMJI, but I have a quick question about the 6412. It seems apparent to me from reading this thread that the unit will record a scheduled recording while turned off. However, this afternoon I noticed when I looked at the box (turned off) that one of my scheduled recordings was not recording (i.e. I didn't see a red light). As soon as I pushed the Power button, the red light went on and it started recording. I checked the schedule and the recording was properly scheduled from 1:00-2:00, but it did not start recording until 1:24 when I turned the box on. Anyone know why it would do this?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

It's supposed to record, even when off. That's interesting, I think I'll try leaving mine ON to see if mine will record anything, since it won't record anything scheduled.

Did you check your saved shows and look to see if your show was listed as start and end at the same clock time. (eg start 12:59 end 12:59) AKA zero length recording?

No, it was not a zero-length recording. It showed in the scheduled items as 1:00-2:00, but in the list of saved shows it showed 1:24-2:00 (i.e. when I turned on the box).

Interestingly, I have tried saving a few other scheduled shows since I posted and they have recorded fine with the box off. So perhaps I did something wrong but I have no idea what it might have been.

p.s. on another subject, are any of the Video Out jacks direct pass-throughs from the cable? My old Mortorola box from Cox had a cable out coaxial which went directly to the TV, but this new box does not have a coaxial out. So, how am I supposed to use the TV with the box off, as some have suggested for a work-around for the tiling problem? Is the only way to do it with a splitter?

Originally posted by DWillens666
So, how am I supposed to use the TV with the box off, as some have suggested for a work-around for the tiling problem? Is the only way to do it with a splitter? Tiling only happens with HD programming AFAIK. Splitting the signal to watch HD directly on your TV won't work unless you have a QAM tuner built-in to your TV (very unlikely). Splitting the signal will only get you the basic cable channels (2-99), none of the digital channels.

DWillens666, what you are describing on your old box is a RF bypass switch which is also available on the 6412 (or at least it is on the 6208)
which routes the signal directly to a cable-ready TV, by passing the cable box to allow to view unscrambled analog programing on the TV when the box is off. As suggested a splitter will accomplish the same thing but with a little over 3 dB signal loss.