Tampa, FL - HDTV [Text View] - Page 7

jblack4909

04-11-09, 11:13 AM

Piggie

04-13-09, 06:23 PM

Hi all - looking to confirm some stuff before I move ahead and lay down my cash – I’d like to confirm some information, and get your input!

1. House is located on W. Breeze Cir. Palm Harbor, FL 34683 - that is near Tarpon Springs (just south of) and near the gulf (about a quarter mile).

2. I will be feeding 3 TVs with the antenna in 3 different ways-
• One has a ChannelMaster 7000 external tuner (no HD Tuner built in)
• One has a built in HD Tuner, but this TV has a TiVo Series 3 attached to it that will be used as the tuner
• One has a built in HD Tuner that will be used as the tuner

3. I will be using the antenna for just digital/HD reception only – no analog.

4. I intend to use the TV antenna outside.

5. Additional information –
• From AntennaWeb – I would like to get 3 Violet UHF channels, 1 Violet VHF channel, 1 Yellow UHF channel and 1 VHF channel. There is a Red UHF channel in my area – but I have no interest in their programming.
• All the Violet channels (UHF and VHF) range from a distance of 36.5 and 37.5 miles away, and are at 126 to 128 degrees compass heading from my location.
• All the Yellow channels (UHF and VHF) are 4.4 miles away, and are 12 degrees compass heading from my location.

I was considering a Winegard HD7697P, but some reviews seem to lean toward the HD7084P as a better choice. I won’t need any channels below 7. Also, I saw a suggestion for a Winegard HDP 269 Preamplifier along with the Winegard HDA-100 System Distribution Amplifier

My goal is for the best possible signal at my house.

How things run today (I have FiOS - I'll be dumping that):
1. Cable terminates in a box on the side of the house.
2. There is a run of cable from the outside cable termination point to a distribution box in a closet on the inside of the house
3. Inside this distribution box is a splitter out to each of the drops in the house

I'd like something a bit more attractive/smaller (?) than the Winegard - I'd like to mount on a "J" mast. My HOA is pretty tough - I know the law, but I'd rather avoid issues if I can help it. I'd like to mount it on the roof (I'm 1 story) on the back of the house with it "peaking" over the top.

Any advice or suggestions?

Thanks!

You are stuck between a wall and a hard place with the last paragraph. I use tvfool.com as it's more accurate than antennaweb.

I put in 12 ft off the ground for a j-pole mount, unless you can get one higher. That makes about half your primary stations blocked by the earth, technically called one-edge meaning it has to cross a hill or rise and is not line of sight. I punched in 15 ft and the same result.

Then I put in 20 ft and bingo, you can see the tops of the towers you wish to receive.

So, to only be at 12 to 15 ft with a j-pole, you are going to need as big of an antenna as you can buy. I would suggest a 7698P, which is on sale at solidsignal.com for $120 free shipping on that antenna.

You can not, repeat, can not run an amp that close to WTSP, it's out of the question. Now you might be able to run a small 10db amp inside right ahead of your splitter, but that might also overload.

But even if you go up to 20 ft, I would not bet on anything less than 7694P.

That is what I see.

BTW I live up near Ocala/Gainesville, but didn't see this answered so I jumped in the Tampa thread.

You could try the 7694P down lower, but I just can't see anything less then going to 3 TVs as after the splitter you only have 1/4 of the signal left.

Also if you buy a 4 way splitter, the 4th unused output must have a terminator on it. They are available at any of the online antenna stores.

Another way is to buy a 3 way splitter.

If you can't find either buy 2 two way splitters to make 3 outputs. Then the one cable that is not split twice, you can run to the TV that is on the longest run of coax. With the two cable spilt twice to the closest TVs.

jblack4909

04-14-09, 09:58 PM

Piggie

04-15-09, 07:22 PM

Wow - great feedback! I see what you mean on the amp - makes perfect sense. I guess that's like saying I can't hear the guys in the back of the room as some other guy is yelling in my ear - and then saying "hey - turn up the volume!" :)

I will take a look at that 7698P and 7694P, and I will definately plug the unused port on the splitter, or get the 3 way one.

The weird thing for me is TVFOOL tells me I'm OK with an inside antenna - on a 20 foot pole - which is how high I think I'll be with a 5 foot pole on top of my house.

Piggie - again - thanks!

Yes, that is a good analogy to amp overload. Not a biologist but it's probably even worse situation than hearing. If you overload an amp, weak stations actually get weaker than if no amp were there.

I went through the same thing as you see on TVFool and it's worse on AntennaWeb. To me they make it seem you need less antenna than you need. Hanging in the Gainesville FL thread (where I am most of time), for the last two years I saw person after person frustrated thinking their Silver Sensor indoor antenna just was a pain to adjust and often still didn't give a signal that didn't break up, yet it was what was said was needed.

To give Andy Lee credit TVFool is a self done site non commercial. AntennaWeb is funded with LOTS of money. Hands down TVFool is better.
Also I have not read through his antenna recommendation section in probably a year.

I go by what I have learned is needed when depending on his signal analysis estimates which are pretty darn close.

While the column Power (dBm) is an industry standard signal level scale it's a little confusing to the average person in particular since it's a negative scale.

That is why Andy put in the NM (dB) column. In a perfect world (read laboratory) you should be able to receive to just about zero NM. But that means no electrical noise or interference of any kind which is not the real world.

I have developed my own scale in my head from helping people choose antennas and their feed back what worked and what didn't work.
It is not Andy's fault at all. There are SO MANY variables you just have to develop either a database of what works in which town or you throw in some guess work. Antennas are a LOT of guess work. So I always overkill when suggesting. The $20 to $40 you spend on over kill on an antenna is normally about the shipping and frustration of buying one too small. Also when weather, noise, and other interference pop up, the extra margin is often solid vs breakups in reception.

It's hard to just go by the numbers. If the station you want has an NM in the 40's and you live 10 miles away and LOS, an indoor antenna will work. If you have stations in the 40's at 25 to 35 miles you need an outdoor antenna. So you see it can get crazy fast. Then it also matters how tall the transmit antennas are up.

You are around 37 miles from the Tampa tower farm which is a tall antenna farm from Florida, 500 meter range (1600 ft).

======

Now before you buy, consider two things. One is there enough room in your attic to mount an antenna?

Maybe even more important is go to Radio Shack, Lowes, Walmart and buy a cheap set of rabbit ears. The best ones have rabbit ears and a loop, but are NOT amplified. They should set you back in the range of $10.

With them you can find out how much signal you do have on an indoor antenna and can guess way way way closer how much outside or attic antenna you need.

I should have suggested that first. I wasn't thinking, sorry, but the $10 on rabbit ears could save you $20 or more on buying too big of an antenna, by finding out just how strong digital is in your home.

Mortier

04-18-09, 10:34 AM

Mortier

04-18-09, 10:47 AM

The digital age seems to present more chance of time differences between the processing of the audio and video. My sound processor (receiver/amp) has an adjustable option called Delay Settings. I found through trial and error a setting which minimizes this problems. Check your theater sound system instruction book for a possible fix.

Piggie

04-18-09, 02:50 PM

jblack/piggie....Enjoyed the discussion you two have had. This particular forum goes weeks and weeks with nothing. I live in New Port Richey, some 4 miles due east of CBS tower in Tarpon Springs. My antenna is the largest I could buy from Radio Shack in 2002 and it is located in my attic. Granted, my home is a "large cube" style, so that the antenna is some 20' off of the ground, but I can get every station in Brandon with ease. I am feeding three tv/recorder areas in my home, mostly using the digital signals. It took some managing (cutting off the last two feet of long reflectors on the array) to get the antenna pointing to appx. 135 degrees from North, but as mentioned, everything is coming in gangbusters. At first, I could not get any of the channel 3 digital stations, but with the transistion, I think they boosted power. I am using the 2/2 use of splitters as I wanted extra transmission capability to the longest cable feed. I also follow the SonyHDD250 and DTVPalDVR forums as we have one of each online. So far CBS has been a reliable source of TVGOS, if you are requiring their service. For some unknown reason, only the Sony gets a full 7 days of programming on CBS, while the Dish unit is only 24 hours.

Over kill on your antenna in a attic was a smart move. And now there will no longer be any full power stations in Tampa on channels 2-6, you don't even really need the longer elements. This is why the new Winegard series, 769xP doesn't even have those elements and isn't even designed to pick up channels 2 through 6. Which makes them even easier in an attic than the full spectrum antennas.

The new ones are not better than what you have so don't waste any money on changing to a new version. In the attic that antenna should work a long time.

Here is a good map of where most of the Tampa transmitters are located, actually south of Brandon.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=N+27%C2%B0+49%27+8%22+++W+82%C2%B0+14%27+26%22+&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=48.50801,114.257812&ie=UTF8&ll=27.822567,-82.258973&spn=0.026644,0.05579&t=h&z=15&iwloc=A

You are also doing what I suggested to jblack, using 2 two-way splitters for 3 TVs, with the output not split twice for the longest run from the splinters to the TVs. The one not split twice has 3 db or twice the signal, and can go about 50 farther in RG6 coax than the ones split twice, so it's perfect for the longest run.

====

Back to antennas. Tampa has 4 high band VHF channels. WFLA is on RF 7, WTVT on RF 12, with WTSP going to RF 10 and WEDU going to RF 13 after June 12th. This represents a little bigger challenge for those 30 miles or more out from the towers. High Band is subject to break ups easier with electrical noise from motors, power lines, etc than channels on UHF RF channels (I am talking the real channel not the display channel). Hence you want an antenna that is bigger to grab more signal.

I believe outside in your area (jblacks about the same) that a Winegard 7696P would be the smallest antenna I would put up. If you can support a 7698P pointed down at the Brandon farm, more the better.

VHF can be squirrelly. All my choices for NBC are on VHF, and granted either much weaker or farther away than your NBC WFLA on RF 7. I am 83 miles from WESH in Orlando on RF 11, 62 miles from WTLV in Jax on RF 13 (same as your channel), or my local Gainesville WNBW which is only 37 miles, but only running peanut power. I can see both local and Jax as long as there is zero electrical noise going on, which is less time than I would like. WESH is so far away there are times no matter what it doesn't make the trip up to my house.

While not all meters on TVs are the same, as a general rule, one would want their VHF channels up in the 80s to 90s if they can get them that strong. At that point the noise issue becomes close to moot.

========

I think you meant you had trouble on WEDU? Where you said the channel 3 digitals. WEDU is on RF Channel 54 at the moment, waiting for WTVT to clear analog on RF 13, so it can move it's digital from RF 54 to RF 13. I can't say positively it will be better for you up in Tarpon area than it is now, but probably. Channel 54 is a challenge to pull in through the walls of an attic. Those folks out 40 to 50 miles from the tower might actually see less signal from WEDU after June 12th when it moves to RF 13.

One HUGE problem created by the FCC was allowing Jacksonville and Tampa to share 3 VHF channels, 7, 10, and 13. The problem will be those folks about Leesburg to Ocala. Most of them watched either Tampa, Jax or Orlando channels. Your channel 10 in Tarpon is a problem for me up here as it's closer than the Brandon towers and on the same RF 10 my alternate ABC out of Jax, but I have Gainesville ABC on UHF that works great. But NBC is my nightmare on Ch 13 from Jacksonville. WTVT tears it up when the slightest skip opens wiping out Jax. I am hoping when that channel is given to WEDU on June 12th there lower power will be less of a problem.

In the old analog days the FCC never close spaced VHF channels anywhere near this close together. So at best it will be interesting to see what I can pick up after June 12th, and at worse very frustrating.

Hoping to hear from BJack soon to see what he has done, ordered or tried.

Piggie :@)

Piggie

04-18-09, 02:57 PM

My email is down, so please Tampa excuse me for relaying this data to Trip in VA via your thread.

Last night the skip rolled in nice from Tampa and I was able to capture and update some of my TSReader outputs. If anyone besides Trip is interested what these are, it's a zip file containing web pages. Trip posts these on his RabbitEars.info web site and relies on folks with computer tuners around the country to submit information for his database.

If anyone in Tampa has a tuner in their XP based computer let myself or Trip know, as we are missing data on most of the Tampa stations. TSReader is a free program that works through a TV tuner in a PC to grab the stations digital information. It's also a free program. Any volunteers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for you time, Piggie :@)

Note to Trip: WMOR added a subchannel, you list it, but my old capture doesn't reflect it. I captured WTVT for the first time last night so that is new. I also included last nights grab of WTSP, but I don't believe anything changed on it. Hope your transmitter rabbit hunt goes well.

OrlandoOTA

04-21-09, 10:59 PM

Trip in VA

04-21-09, 11:01 PM

What kind of antenna do you have?

- Trip

OrlandoOTA

04-21-09, 11:25 PM

rmcdo

04-22-09, 06:20 AM

I am on the edge of the Orlando-Tampa market line. Have been watching stations from the Tampa area from back when WTOG was king......

Thought Id ask this question in the Tampa OTA. Why is WFLA-DT so weak? I have no problem receiving ch 8 analog, no matter what time of the day or night. However, I have unwatchable signals from ch 7 digital of the same station. According to the FCC maps, both have the same grade "B", but the digital is not making it. Any idea why?

Just as a point of compare, WTVT always seems to come in well, both analog and digital (13 and 12), but the FCC map shows the grade B does not make it as far as WFLA.

This example is why I think a lot of fringe viewers are going to be out of luck after June 12.

I'm only about 26 miles east of Riverview, but I also have trouble receiving channel 8's digital signal. Their signal strength is the lowest of the channels that broadcast from that location and it frequently drops close to my threshold level for reception. Even when their signal strength is relatively high, the sound will sometimes blip in and out while watching a program. I e-mailed the station twice about this problem, but they never bothered to respond.

Piggie

04-24-09, 11:36 PM

I currently am using a hi-vhf only antenna for this. It worked fine for analog reception but I guess I need more gain and height for digital. I have been using it for years for 8 and 13. It also did a good job for channel 3 before their analog was retired.

I know this antenna is under spec. I am thinking about getting an HD-7698P, as there are also some Tampa UHF's I would also like to pick up. I use another antenna for the Orlando signals.

Channel 7 digital has all the advantages over Analog 8. It is higher on the same tower, and at a lower frequency. However, it is not making it with enough signal strength to decode 90% of the time. Is this just a sign of not enough digital power to match the same service area as the digital?

Welcome to what I call the world of digital VHF. I am in Orange Springs (look me up on a map as there are dozen Orange somethings in Florida). I am 61 miles from Jacksonville antenna farm and 83 miles from the Bithlo farm. Technically I am in the Orlando DMA but MUCH closer to Gainesville DMA tower (between 25 to 37 miles).

On analog with a high band only beam (YA-1713) and now two of them stacked, I can watch 6 (even though it's low band) and 9 out of Bithlo analog. Yet WESH on 11.1 only comes in when either the atmosphere is very stable or skip. [WESH analog doesn't count in this comparison since it's only 50 some miles from me]

Turning my stack to Jax, I could watch 4, 7, 12 with my high band stack any time of the day. But 7 (WJCT) flash cut to digital a few weeks ago and now only comes in when the skip is at least weak. 12 now on 13 RF (WTLV) comes in most of the time running 25 KW, but they changed antennas and stopped beaming the fishes, which really helped here. They went from nothing at all on 13RF even in skip to being there most of the time with break ups. WJXX moved from 25RF analog on a tower about 40 miles away to 10 RF in the Jax farm (61 miles). They run 11.1 KW ERP and they are not there in the day time most days.

Now oddly and much to my dismay, I can tell when skip is building at night. If it's the normal weak night FL skip, WJCT on RF 7.1 comes in nicely. But then if the skip builds it's bye bye and I can swing the beam to Tampa and lock that RF on 7.1 making me assume Tampa's RF 7 raises the noise floor and wipes out Jax RF 7. This happens several nights a week. I thought they close spaced those two RF7s too close. Now I am confident. Now to the FCC credit, I am right right on the edge of Jax's RF7, but 40 some miles from the edge of Tampa's.

If the skip gets stronger as above, Tampa 13 analog wipes out Jax's 13.1 digital. And of course with Tampa's RF 10 closer to me it doesn't take much for it to wipe out RF10 from Jax.

The FCC in my opinion made two mistakes.

1) During the day or very early evening, VHF doesn't travel as far as predicted unless the station is up in the 40 to 60 KW range.

2) Once the sun goes down, they are too closely spaced. Reducing power would not help, as it would weak the desired signal as well as undesired.

===

I think they should remove all LP stations from VHF. It's too late to tell Jax or Tampa they can't use VHF. Too bad WFLA didn't flash cut to Channel 8, as it's pretty empty in Central and North FL.

I also think you are going to have trouble when WEDU cuts to 13 digital as they will only be running 25KW

======

I am slowly coming to the conclusion, unless you live withing the first half a grade B contour, you have no guarantee you will receive a station. VHF is susceptible to electrical noise and at night co-channel.

UHF works better but any mulitpath causing by folliage in a 10 mph wind can run reception. This can be over come by using a much higher power beam of log/yagi type than one would think they would need. But in my case that would mean turning my antenna (now using a 4221A on UHF) every time I changed UHF channels on Gainesville stations (52 degree spread).

It may come to that for me. I have considered scrapping my stacked YA-1713's and 4221 and just buying a 7698P and use a rotor. I really didn't want to need a rotor but it keep looking more and more like it.

bozey45

05-01-09, 02:47 PM

Great post about what you receive up in Orange Springs. I think you'd love a rotor; I use the CM9521A and really enjoy trying for various stations from my location just north of Tampa in Wesley Chapel. I use a 91-XG for UHF and a Winegard HD5030 VHF. I wanted a larger VHF but oak trees too close around me prevented that. I'm about 25 feet above ground now and go another 10 and then would be just above a troublesome oak. Channel 3 and 16 here dumped analog a while back and also 38 and 62. I'm waiting to see how channel 3 is affected by going to VHF13. mY 91-xg even between oak tree branches gets Orlando's channel 56 analog pretty well perfect all day and their digital also; 35 analog is marginal because I have to rotate a bit and then the antenna is looking though the tree branches. Channels 6 and 9 aren't bad all day here with the WInegard, WESH 2 is weaker and have to rotate further north for them. Channel 5 analog in gainseville is visible here all day allthough snowy, again looking though some oaks. If I can get up that other 8 to 10 feet that would suit me. Aiming south is a waste from here except for the locals from the antenna farm in Riverview. There is a weak analog channel 5 in Sarasota that pops in sometimes. An oak tree right by the antenna on the west screws up some weak LP's west of here but they aren't too bad. It just has enough room to rotate that direction. That extra height would improve things tremendously. If the 91-XG looks between branches there is a point where a UHF channel in Tallahassee on 40 analog can be seen most of the day, snowy but there--I guess it passes across the Gulf easily to here--it's strange but i was contacted by a DXpert and he said the Gulf is the reason that signal gets here. But i think you'd love a rotor.

jmwfl2000

05-04-09, 10:25 AM

Does anyone have any experience with getting cablecards installed into a Media Center PC in the Tampa Brighthouse area? I have had three guys out so far and I am having no luck. They are completely clueless and it is driving me insane! I am hoping that someone has had a successful install and I can pick their brain. Thanks!

bdraw

05-10-09, 02:20 PM

I've had a few installed and just helped a friend yesterday.

It is really simple actually. When they come you just go to My Computer>Network and then double click on the ATI OpenCable Receiver which will launch your default browser. Go to the Card tab and hit the Host ID link where you'll find the numbers the installer needs to activate. He calls them in and it should start working. If it doesn't then I'd suggest you check out The Custom Integrator Show episodes 7-13 which are all about troubleshooing CableCARD tuners in Media Center.

rmcdo

06-13-09, 03:16 PM

Now that the digital transition is over, I'm not able to pick up channel 10 any more. Does anyone else have this problem? I used to get them on digital channel 24. Their signal strength was low, but if I aimed my directional antenna right at them, it would work. Did they change freqency, decrease their signal strength, or move their transmitter?

JeffMTampa

06-13-09, 04:34 PM

jimwhite

06-13-09, 07:47 PM

Hopefully they're moving the antenna to Riverview... :eek:

... well, I can dream...

:rolleyes:

bdraw

06-13-09, 10:21 PM

I don't think the FCC will let them move to riverview.

With channel 10 moving from 24 to 10 you might need to get a VHF only antenna pointed to holiday. If you had a channel 24 jointenna you'll need to swap it out for a channel 10 version.

Luckily I'm able to pick it up off the back of the UHF/VHF combo I have pointed at riverview.

CJLS

06-14-09, 11:47 AM

I received channel 10 OTA just fine until yesterday with an exterior pole mounted antenna. Today I rescanned the channels and no channel 10 at all. I'm located in South Tampa.

I look on the channel 10 website- they changed from UHF channel 24 to VHF channel 10. I don't know if they moved the transmitter or not, but I get no signal whatsoever. It seems VHF doesn't broadcast as far as UHF. Why in the world would they change over to a MUCH inferior broadcast frequency? I'll be 2/3 of Tampa no longer gets theis signal.:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Prior to the transition, I could receive analog channel 10 as well as digital channel 10 (actually uhf 24). I've rescanned but now my antennas cannot pull in digital channel 10 (actual 10). The antennas are designed for vhf and are good enough to get all the uhf channels and the other vhf channels - channels 8 (actual 7), 13 (actual 12), and 3 (actual 13). The problem seems to be low transmitting power on chan 10... {Note: I'm in Lakeland.}

Jean

RayderR6

06-14-09, 06:24 PM

I figured I would find others on AVS with this issue. I use OTA on Vista MCE and was always getting the digital signal.

After the new scan, there is zero signal strenth (1 red bar) for 3(PBS), 10(CBS), 44(WTOG) and 38(WTTA), while 8(NBC), 13(FOX), 16(USF), 28(ABC), 32(?) and 66(ION) come full strength.

Are any of you ppl missing 10 also missing 44 and 38?

I even thought 38 went full digital back in February since they put so much effort into informing their viewers. My antenna hasn't changed and I do believe 10 is the furthest away on Gandy Blvd and I live in Brandon, but something seems wrong.

I will keep my eye on this thread and will report if I hear any fix or info, but for now, I consider this to be on the stations for troubleshooting.

bozey45

06-15-09, 11:31 AM

the channels you can't receive any longer all changed channels. PBS 3 changed from UHF 54 to VHF 13, CBS10 changed from UHF 24 to VHF 10, WTOG44 went from UHF 59 to UHF 44 and WTTA38 went from UHF 57 to UHF 38. This could be an antenna issue; you had two that wnet to high VHF channels and two others from high UHF channels to lower UHF channels. I would mess with the antenna or manually dial in the new channel assignments and see if they will decode. Channel 10's transmitter is in Tarpon Springs by the way, the studio location is Gandy Blvd.

RayderR6

06-15-09, 03:42 PM

Thanks bozey, I will look into it.
Regards

rmcdo

06-16-09, 06:38 AM

My mother-in-law was able to receive channel ten on an indoor antenna before the switch. Now there's no sign of it. I e-mailed channel 10 about my reception problem but they never bothered to reply.

LarryChanin

06-16-09, 07:56 AM

My mother-in-law was able to receive channel ten on an indoor antenna before the switch. Now there's no sign of it. I e-mailed channel 10 about my reception problem but they never bothered to reply.

Hi,

For what it's worth, I saw a ticker tape type banner message on channel 10 via cable stating that following the digital transition that viewers should reorient their antennas toward Tarpon Springs and have their cable boxes rescan for available over-the-air channels.

Larry

JeffMTampa

06-20-09, 12:50 PM

I've rescanned numerous times since CBS changed from 24 to 10 with NO success whatsoever. I don't get the faintest hint of a signal. I get every other channel out there, including ABC from Sarasota, but no channel 10.:mad::mad:

My antenna is a UHF/ VHF combo with a clear sightline to Tarpon, but I guess their signal srength isn't there. Perhaps they just don't care about the 3% non-wired TV's out there.:confused:

I can't be alone in this, but I guess I'll either need to get another anenna or just live w/o CBS.:(:(

himey

06-21-09, 01:02 AM

RayderR6

06-21-09, 03:00 AM

Jeff, you're not alone. 3 of the 4 channels I was missing came in the next day on their own, but no 10. I've already wrote them off and I'll watch Criminal Minds and NCIS on DVD, delayed of course. I have no intention on buying anything to bring them in. 3% non wired, is that what 'free' tv has come to, lol

himey, if Palm Harbor can't bring in a signal from Tarpon Springs, then there seems to be a problem that would be out of our hands.

Take Care everyone

bozey45

06-25-09, 02:15 PM

What's your location? You say you have a clear sight to Tarpon Springs but still no 10 after a rescan. Do you see any evidence of a signal at all or no signal on the meter?

rmcdo

06-26-09, 07:03 AM

I finally started picking up channel ten this past week, but its signal strength is lower than it was so it just barely comes in. Also channel 3 has a much lower signal strength than before. The result is that where I used to be able to aim my antenna precisely between Riverview and Holiday and get 10 plus all the other channels without having to move the antenna, this is no longer possible. If I get 3, I can't get 10 and vice versa. I think both of these channels moved from UHF to VHF. Either VHF doesn't transmit as far as UHF or my antenna doesn't pick up VHF as well as UHF.

JeffMTampa

07-04-09, 08:03 AM

After the transition last month I was unable to get channel 10 to show up at all. I rescanned numerous times over a week with no success- no trace of a signal at all.:confused: I sent an e-mail off to their engineering department to see if they were aware of the issue, and if the loss of signal was temporary or permenant. I did get a reply, but I was merely told I would need to get a new antenna.:eek::mad:

I decided I really didn't need to see channel 10 that badly so I did nothing. This morning I rescanned to see if anything had changed; it not only found the signal but it comes in perfectly!:D I did nothing to change my antenna setup- it looks like channel 10 must have done something to boost their signal.:)

I hope this is a permenant fix.

ScottAllyn

07-10-09, 10:11 AM

RadYOacTve

07-10-09, 10:38 AM

Hey Scott,

I have a cable card in my Panasonic plasma and I receive all of the stations I pay for including the HD's.

I live in Odessa off SR54 and the suncoast. My only problem is that the card needs to be reset every few weeks or so. i have to pull the card and put it back in. Not sure why, didnt have this problem with brighthouse's cable card. My guess is when the power flickers it loses it's IP address or I just have a bad card. I'll get around to changing it when I have time to wait all day for them to come to the house.

FIOS is finally available in my area (Van Dyke Rd area in Lutz) and I have an install scheduled for Saturday the 18th. I wanted to get a pair of Cable Cards from Verizon to use with my HD TiVo instead of using their HD-DVR. The problem is that the FIOS employee insists that their cable cards are only for standard definition broadcasts - I won't be able to view any HD broadcasts with them.

Is that correct? I'll admit that I know next to nothing about cable cards but I was under the impression that ALL cable cards supported HD broadcasts.

Does anyone in the Tampa area have FIOS and view their HD content through a cable card? Is there any HD content that you *can't* view?

Ron Tobin

07-11-09, 12:08 PM

FIOS is finally available in my area (Van Dyke Rd area in Lutz) and I have an install scheduled for Saturday the 18th. I wanted to get a pair of Cable Cards from Verizon to use with my HD TiVo instead of using their HD-DVR. The problem is that the FIOS employee insists that their cable cards are only for standard definition broadcasts - I won't be able to view any HD broadcasts with them.

Is that correct? I'll admit that I know next to nothing about cable cards but I was under the impression that ALL cable cards supported HD broadcasts.

Does anyone in the Tampa area have FIOS and view their HD content through a cable card? Is there any HD content that you *can't* view?

I'm in Sarasota (used to live at Van Dyke Farms) however, I've had Fios here for over 2 years, with cable cards for my Tivo. My son, in Phila., just got Fios and got the M card (dual tuner) for his HD tuner. The cable card is capable of receiving any channel (including HD) that you subscribe to. Obviously, the customer service employee at Verizon, that you spoke to, has no idea what they are talking about.

ScottAllyn

07-11-09, 01:09 PM

Obviously, the customer service employee at Verizon, that you spoke to, has no idea what they are talking about.

That's what I figured. Thanks for the info guys!

LarryChanin

07-11-09, 01:19 PM

Hey Scott,

I have a cable card in my Panasonic plasma and I receive all of the stations I pay for including the HD's.

I live in Odessa off SR54 and the suncoast. My only problem is that the card needs to be reset every few weeks or so. i have to pull the card and put it back in. Not sure why, didnt have this problem with brighthouse's cable card. My guess is when the power flickers it loses it's IP address or I just have a bad card. I'll get around to changing it when I have time to wait all day for them to come to the house.

I'm in Sarasota (used to live at Van Dyke Farms) however, I've had Fios here for over 2 years, with cable cards for my Tivo. My son, in Phila., just got Fios and got the M card (dual tuner) for his HD tuner. The cable card is capable of receiving any channel (including HD) that you subscribe to. Obviously, the customer service employee at Verizon, that you spoke to, has no idea what they are talking about.

Hi,

Like Ron I'm in Sarasota, and I've have four single cable cards in my two TiVoHD DVRs for over 19 months.

Try another Verizon representitive who hopefully knows more about their products. It's possible that by now the dual tuner cards Ron mentioned are also available.

Larry

Ron Tobin

07-12-09, 10:12 AM

Hi,

It's possible that by now the dual tuner cards Ron mentioned are also available.

Larry

As I mentioned, Fios recently came into my son's neighborhood in the Phila. suburbs. They went door to door and he had an appt. set, but was unclear about his eqt. needs. Knowing he has an HD Tivo and another TV upstairs that he rarely watches, I told him to call Fios and ask for 2-S cards or 1 M card for the HD Tivo. I was surprised to learn that, in the Phila. area, they actually do have M cards now and the install was a breeze.

I also told my son to get the DCT-700 for his upstairs TV, since he rarely watched it and no need to pay for the fancy guides or VOD capability. That's the tuner that they gave us for "free" last year as they stopped feeding basic cable, channels 2-49. The free offer is over, but the DCT-700 has a minimal monthly cost.

LarryChanin

07-12-09, 10:32 AM

As I mentioned, Fios recently came into my son's neighborhood in the Phila. suburbs. They went door to door and he had an appt. set, but was unclear about his eqt. needs. Knowing he has an HD Tivo and another TV upstairs that he rarely watches, I told him to call Fios and ask for 2-S cards or 1 M card for the HD Tivo. I was surprised to learn that, in the Phila. area, they actually do have M cards now and the install was a breeze.

I also told my son to get the DCT-700 for his upstairs TV, since he rarely watched it and no need to pay for the fancy guides or VOD capability. That's the tuner that they gave us for "free" last year as they stopped feeding basic cable, channels 2-49. The free offer is over, but the DCT-700 has a minimal monthly cost.

Hi Ron,

Whereas you and I might have some difficulty upgrading to the M-card, see posting#1502 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16207560&postcount=1502), Scott might be able to get one easily on an initial installation.

Larry

CJLS

08-05-09, 11:18 AM

flcs3

08-05-09, 11:32 PM

... in the last couple of weeks, I can barely get a stable signal on 10 at all. Did they decrease power, re-aim the transmitter, or is it a plot to get people to sign up for cable?

I've seen a lot of chatter recently about loads of tropospheric ducting and scatter, which could allow the signals from distant stations to interfere with your reception.

The usual approach to address this problem, other than waiting out the atmospheric conditions, is to use a higher gain and more directive antenna. You might check with tvfool.com to see what beamwidth will allow you to receive both Ch 10's tower and the Riverview antenna farm without rotating the antenna. The extreme solution would involve pointing a dedicated, single-channel Yagi at the Ch 10 transmitter, and using a Jointenna type device to connect it with your existing antenna(s).

Feel free to post your tvfool data and a description of your current antenna setup (or give a link to a previous posting of that information).

Edit:
Jean, since you don't have too many posts, I skimmed through them and ran a tvfool for your zip code (33803) at ten feet. At almost 52 miles, the Ch 10 signal is 2-edge and weak (1.1 dB NM, -89.7 dBm). I'm suprised that you could pull that in indoors with your diamond quad (right?). Increasing the antenna altitude to 50 feet, gave a 1-edge path with a better, though still weakish, signal (19.2 dB NM, -71.7 dBm). Are the numbers really that bad at your exact location? What gain does 4nec2 predict for your antenna?

Anohter extreme measure would be to insert into the Ch 10 signal path a very low noise RF amp, e.g. the KitzTech with a noise factor below 1 dB, fronted by bandwidth limiting filters to help avoid RFI.

CJLS

08-06-09, 09:25 AM

I've seen a lot of chatter recently about loads of tropospheric ducting and scatter, which could allow the signals from distant stations to interfere with your reception.

The usual approach to address this problem, other than waiting out the atmospheric conditions, is to use a higher gain and more directive antenna. You might check with tvfool.com to see what beamwidth will allow you to receive both Ch 10's tower and the Riverview antenna farm without rotating the antenna. The extreme solution would involve pointing a dedicated, single-channel Yagi at the Ch 10 transmitter, and using a Jointenna type device to connect it with your existing antenna(s).

Feel free to post your tvfool data and a description of your current antenna setup (or give a link to a previous posting of that information).

Edit:
Jean, since you don't have too many posts, I skimmed through them and ran a tvfool for your zip code (33803) at ten feet. At almost 52 miles, the Ch 10 signal is 2-edge and weak (1.1 dB NM, -89.7 dBm). I'm suprised that you could pull that in indoors with your diamond quad (right?). Increasing the antenna altitude to 50 feet, gave a 1-edge path with a better, though still weakish, signal (19.2 dB NM, -71.7 dBm). Are the numbers really that bad at your exact location? What gain does 4nec2 predict for your antenna?

Anohter extreme measure would be to insert into the Ch 10 signal path a very low noise RF amp, e.g. the KitzTech with a noise factor below 1 dB, fronted by bandwidth limiting filters to help avoid RFI.

The tvfool data for my location is at http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d4d77201cb2e976

The diamond quad is located inside the house. It is designed for VHF and has an estimated gain (dBi via 4NEC2) of 3.2 for channel 10. I also have a rectangular quad (located on a covered porch) that is designed for VHF and it has an estimated gain of 4.5 for channel 10.

PRE-TRANSITION: Both antennas were able to get analog channel 10 without any ghosting. Both antennas were able to get a digital signal when the station was broadcasting it on channel 24 (estimated gains of -0.6 for the diamond quad, and 2.6 for the rectangular quad).

POST-TRANSITION: The diamond quad can receive digital channel 10 if the weather is good and the rectangular quad can not receive digital channel 10 at all.

I've noticed that the reception of digital VHF (especially channel 10) is very susceptible to weather disturbances. My guess is that the problem with channel 10 is a combination of the station reverting back to VHF and decreasing their power.

If I were willing to put an antenna on the roof, I could probably alleviate the problem. But after going through 3 hurricanes back in 2004, I'm not willing to mount anything on the roof. The one thing I haven't tried is to put an FM trap on the antenna ...what are the chances that would help?

Jean

flcs3

08-06-09, 02:50 PM

The tvfool data for my location is at http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d4d77201cb2e976

That looks quite a bit better (23.6 dB NM) than the one just based on your zipcode. Still kind of weak, though.

I've noticed that the reception of digital VHF (especially channel 10) is very susceptible to weather disturbances. My guess is that the problem with channel 10 is a combination of the station reverting back to VHF and decreasing their power.
VHF IS far more susceptible to noise from electrical discharges, both lightning and man-made. Ch 10 is not transmitting the highest allowed post-transition VHF power, but they may be limited because of the presence of another Ch 10 in the Miami area. That is my understanding as to why their transmitter is not in the Riverview antenna farm with most of the others.

... after going through 3 hurricanes back in 2004, I'm not willing to mount anything on the roof.
Understood. Is an attic or porch mount of a higher gain antenna possible?

A single channel Yagi-Uda is fairly simple to build, and a modestly sized one will beat your quads on gain and directivity. Adding to their gain is straight forward by adding additional directors. Depending on the dimensions available in the direction of the Ch 10 transmitter, you might be able to mount one on the ceiling of your porch or in your attic.

You likely know this already, but if you put up a dedicated Ch 10 antenna, using a simple splitter to merge it with your existing antenna will really mess things up. You want a special frequency selective filtering device to connect the two antennas, so that their respective signals do not destructively interfere with each other. The Channel Master Jointenna is the most common consumer device. They are specific to the channel, and they hurt nearby channel signals (fortunately, there are no 9 or 11 stations in TB A). I believe Model 0580 is the correct Channel Master product number for channel 10. They should cost about $20-30 online. But, you should check how much it might attenuate Ch 12.

The KitzTech amp that I previously mentioned, sells for $50 directly from KitzTech. However, that is usually the last component to add.

The one thing I haven't tried is to put an FM trap on the antenna ...what are the chances that would help?
It's hard to say. There is a companion site to tvfool called fmfool. It will tell you whether there are any nearby strong FM transmitters. If so, the danger is that their signals might overload your tuner (or amp, if you install one), and the distortion products might appear as noise at Ch 10. Since you get good reception when the weather is good, FM interference is less likely.

However, the unusual atmosheric propogation might be reduced. Instead of an "official" FM trap, you might try a VHF-hi/VHF-lo combiner as a low pass filter. This would filter out FM, VHF-lo, and lower frequecny signals. It is simpler and cheaper (under $5) than "real" FM traps, too.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HLSJ

For this use, you should use a 75 Ohm terminator on the unused port.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=TT-5900

These and similar devices should be available at other online sellers, too.

Good luck with your OTA TV.

rmcdo

08-07-09, 06:44 AM

Right after the transition, I was able to get channel 10 OTA on 2 of my 4 tv's here in Lakeland. But in the last couple of weeks, I can barely get a stable signal on 10 at all. Did they decrease power, re-aim the transmitter, or is it a plot to get people to sign up for cable?

Jean

I'm currently not getting channel 10 either. I was able to get it (with an outdoor antenna) when they were on channel 24, but when they switched to channel 10, I couldn't get it for a while. Then it started coming in, but now it's gone again. Also yesterday morning I was not receiving channel 3. In the evening I was receiving channel 3 again, but channel 16 was out. Several of the other channels, such as 8 and 13 had a much lower signal strength than usual. This morning everything is back to normal except there's still no channel 10. I was looking forward to the improved picture quality that digital TV would provide, but I didn't anticipate that it would be so unreliable.

CJLS

08-07-09, 04:34 PM

I'm currently not getting channel 10 either. I was able to get it (with an outdoor antenna) when they were on channel 24, but when they switched to channel 10, I couldn't get it for a while. Then it started coming in, but now it's gone again. Also yesterday morning I was not receiving channel 3. In the evening I was receiving channel 3 again, but channel 16 was out. Several of the other channels, such as 8 and 13 had a much lower signal strength than usual. This morning everything is back to normal except there's still no channel 10. I was looking forward to the improved picture quality that digital TV would provide, but I didn't anticipate that it would be so unreliable.

Can you imagine how unreliable DTV will be when we get a tropical storm/hurricane here? I emailed Steve Jerve (channel 8) about the possiblity that I wouldn't be able to get weather updates during severe storms, and he replied that he thought that channel 8 still had an agreement with a local FM station to rebroadcast their program. I still need to verify that ...sure hope it is true.

Jean

flcs3

08-07-09, 08:24 PM

I'm currently not getting channel 10 either.

It sounds like you could use more VHF-hi gain and perhaps the HLSJ high-pass filter mentioned a couple of posts above. In your previous posts you mentioned having an RF amp purchased at Walmart. Without knowing the make and model, this amp isn't likely to have stellar noise performance. You might be able to get a 3 dB improvement by using a low noise (3 dB noise factor) amp. Not knowing what outdoor antenna you have installed, an improved balun might give you another dB (maybe you already have a good one).

Alas, the KitzTech amp (1 dB NF) isn't designed for outdoor installation.
Channel Master and Winegard make several good outdoor preamps.
The Channel Master outdoor balun is commonly recommended.

A quiet amp, HLSJ and 75 Ohm terminator together might run about $50 with shipping.

Be careful to weatherize all outdoor connections, especially around cable ends to prevent water from entering around the coax shield. Be sure to use a drip loop and proper grounding at the building entrance.

bwaldron

08-08-09, 10:54 AM

Can you imagine how unreliable DTV will be when we get a tropical storm/hurricane here?

Hasn't been a problem in the past. Watched channel 8.1 the entire time in '04 as Jeanne was ripping out my fence and downing an oak tree.

Now, if a big wind makes a direct hit on the tower farm in Riverview, we could have issues ;)

Piggie

08-09-09, 12:18 PM

That looks quite a bit better (23.6 dB NM) than the one just based on your zipcode. Still kind of weak, though.

VHF IS far more susceptible to noise from electrical discharges, both lightning and man-made. Ch 10 is not transmitting the highest allowed post-transition VHF power, but they may be limited because of the presence of another Ch 10 in the Miami area. That is my understanding as to why their transmitter is not in the Riverview antenna farm with most of the others.

23.6 NM on VHF all but dictates at least a small outdoor VHF antenna. That is very low on an indoor. Attic antenna at that level should also work. I would say a minimum of 6 dbd of gain would be needed.

VHF if one is not inside the first half of the famous FCC blue circle of coverage is spotty for a lot of reception locations, for the above mentioned reasons plus the fact the FCC allowed way too many VHFs in Florida. We have a lot more tropo than most of the country. While the spacing between channel 10's is "legal and granted by the FCC", in reality they are way too close together.

There is a Ch10 in Jacksonville, Orlando, Tampa, Miami. In the past they did space 10 north of Tampa to protect Miami. But now WJXX at 29.5 KW in Jax, is about 30 miles closer at 176 miles. The Orlando LD may or maynot be a factor, but every Low Power that is added raises the noise on the channel.

Also I wish I could find the chart that showed how much co-channel would still work, between digital to digital and then digital to analog. The one thing I do remember is digital to digital co-channel is much worse. So my point is if one was watching a digital channel pre-transition, and there was analog co-channel interference from a another given city, then that city went digital on that channel, chances are if your reception as marginal before with analog co-channel, it's much more with digital co-channel.

Understood. Is an attic or porch mount of a higher gain antenna possible?

I agree. Even a short outside pole, not needing any guy wires that is easy to take down. While I understand your concern, going through 2 of the 3 2004 hurricanes with massive damage, rejecting using an outdoor antenna is rejecting your best reception possibility.

A single channel Yagi-Uda is fairly simple to build, and a modestly sized one will beat your quads on gain and directivity. Adding to their gain is straight forward by adding additional directors. Depending on the dimensions available in the direction of the Ch 10 transmitter, you might be able to mount one on the ceiling of your porch or in your attic.

Nope, a properly built quad will have 2 db gain over a dipole. If the driven element of a beam is a quad loop, it too will have 2 db gain over the same yagi with a dipole for a driven element. This is assuming by the word "quad" you mean a radiating element that is one wavelength in length, that is 1/4 wave length per side. On paper it doesn't matter if it's feed in the middle of the bottom 1/4 wave section set as a square, or feed on a corner set as a diamond. On paper also it doesn't matter if passive element are quad loops or dipoles.

Now that said, that doesn't agree with my practical results building quads for Short Wave or VHF (144 MHz) which the latter is very close to TV high band.

My real world results and those of many others, find two things true. Quads feed on a corner seem to always work better as seems your case.

The other is if the passive element are also quads and not dipoles the antenna works better.

It's harder to make a mechanically robust quad TV antenna or I would think we would see more of them on the market (I am not sure there is even one out there).

The Channel Master Jointenna is the most common consumer device.

I have looked for them and they seem to be no longer made???? I have never used one, but on paper they mess up adjacent channel reception. Which in the Tampa market is not a problem (if the specs are true), as there isn't a Ch9 or Ch11.

The KitzTech amp that I previously mentioned, sells for $50 directly from KitzTech. However, that is usually the last component to add.

It's hard to say. There is a companion site to tvfool called fmfool. It will tell you whether there are any nearby strong FM transmitters. If so, the danger is that their signals might overload your tuner (or amp, if you install one), and the distortion products might appear as noise at Ch 10. Since you get good reception when the weather is good, FM interference is less likely.

However, the unusual atmosheric propogation might be reduced. Instead of an "official" FM trap, you might try a VHF-hi/VHF-lo combiner as a low pass filter. This would filter out FM, VHF-lo, and lower frequecny signals. It is simpler and cheaper (under $5) than "real" FM traps, too.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=HLSJ

For this use, you should use a 75 Ohm terminator on the unused port.

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=TT-5900

These and similar devices should be available at other online sellers, too.

Good luck with your OTA TV.

According to his TV Fool Plot he is very close to overloading an amp. I have no idea the overload spec on a KitzTech amp, but as far as masthead amps the only one that should be used in your location is HDP 269 (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANWHDP269). However this amp doesn't have an FM trap if you need one where you live. Check FM Fool for your location and if any station is over about -30 dbm you probably need a trap (smaller numbers are stronger).

And I agree a HLSJ is less expensive than an FM trap and can reject a lot of noise and signals you don't even need.

Piggie

08-09-09, 12:23 PM

I'm currently not getting channel 10 either. I was able to get it (with an outdoor antenna) when they were on channel 24, but when they switched to channel 10, I couldn't get it for a while. Then it started coming in, but now it's gone again. Also yesterday morning I was not receiving channel 3. In the evening I was receiving channel 3 again, but channel 16 was out. Several of the other channels, such as 8 and 13 had a much lower signal strength than usual. This morning everything is back to normal except there's still no channel 10. I was looking forward to the improved picture quality that digital TV would provide, but I didn't anticipate that it would be so unreliable.

Can you go to TVFool (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29) put in your address and antenna height and then post the bold link here. It's hard to guess what you need without seeing the online site survey TVFool provides.

Again though, VHF digital is no piece of cake unless you live inside the first half of the FCC blue circle on their coverage maps. Even then VHF can take the right antenna and still live with some drop outs during lightning or strong impulse noise in your area. I know, I can't do very well on VHF here even though I am inside the blue contour of the FCC on both WTLV and WNBW. I have 12db plus up 30 ft in the air, with stacked YA-1317 Winegards.

bdraw

08-09-09, 08:37 PM

flcs3

08-10-09, 02:28 AM

Nope, a properly built quad will have 2 db gain over a dipole.

Yes, but the context of my comparison was a multi-element Yagi with Jean's existing quad, rather than one of equivalent boom length. A (harder to build) quad array ought to fit in most attics, but wouldn't fit so well on a porch ceiling.

I loved reading about your real world quad experiences, Piggie. This way off-topic here, but I have in the back of mind building something like Beezley's Quadix to pull in Jacksonville FM stations. The 200" boom may be overkill, though. 8-)

http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/quadix.htm

I have looked for them and they seem to be no longer made????
I have read that the continued future of the Jointennas is in doubt, but Warren Electronics seems to have some availability, modulo stale information on their web page:

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/Jointennas.htm

BTW, not having used one of these Jointennas, either, I would love to hear of anyone's experience with them.

According to his TV Fool Plot he is very close to overloading an amp. I have no idea the overload spec on a KitzTech amp,
It is working well for me with an FM trap, and it does have variable gain (0-20 dB), in addition to its 1 dB NF (2 dB better than the HDP-269). Ideally Jean will not need an amp at all. My two strongest stations (76 and 66 dB NM) are stronger than Jean's strongest, but that is with unknown indoor signal attenuation, and I don't have as many stations making signal contributions. FWIW, I bought an HDP-269 the day before learning of the KitzTech (!), but not having plugged it in, I have no comparisons to report.

bwaldron

08-10-09, 10:07 AM

I have read that the continued future of the Jointennas is in doubt, but Warren Electronics seems to have some availability, modulo stale information on their web page:

http://www.warrenelectronics.com/antennas/Jointennas.htm

BTW, not having used one of these Jointennas, either, I would love to hear of anyone's experience with them.

I used a channel 24 UHF jointenna (purchased from Warren Electronics) to get channel 10 in the past, and it worked just fine for years. I haven't bothered getting a newer one, for channel 10 I just rely on DirecTV alone these days.

Piggie

08-10-09, 01:56 PM

I realize this doesn't help, but I'm still able to pick up WTSP post transition with a UHF/VHF combo antenna (V15). In fact I used to have an extra UFH only pointed towards holiday for WTSP, but post transition I took it down and pick it up just as good on the back of my V15. It is outside, mounted on the roof and I'm about 20 miles from the tower.

Where you are in the Tampa area makes the biggest difference. At least half of how well any antenna works is location, just like real estate. Location, location, location.

Piggie

08-10-09, 02:21 PM

Yes, but the context of my comparison was a multi-element Yagi with Jean's existing quad, rather than one of equivalent boom length. A (harder to build) quad array ought to fit in most attics, but wouldn't fit so well on a porch ceiling.

I loved reading about your real world quad experiences, Piggie. This way off-topic here, but I have in the back of mind building something like Beezley's Quadix to pull in Jacksonville FM stations. The 200" boom may be overkill, though. 8-)

http://www.ham-radio.com/k6sti/quadix.htm

Yes, on a short boom yagi, just one director will make up the 2 db of loss by going to a dipole driven element. The longer the boom the less and less each director adds.

If you have a very short boom yagi with just a driven and a reflector, adding a single director increases the boom length and number of elements by 50%, which will add from 1.5 to 2 db depending on the source and construction, etc. Adding the next directors for a total of 4 elements will only add about a db at best. The results diminish as the number of directors increase.

More extreme on a long boom like a YA-1713, one would need to add 6 to 7 directors to achieve a 2 db increase in gain, approx.

=========

Building a quad for Jack FM is doable. Most of the big stations in Jax will come in on a good car FM receiver to a degree. A little gain pointed at Jax would make happen.

I used to live on NW 55th Terrace between Univ and 23rd Ave, right where it takes a dog leg around that pond. I had an FM6 up there in 1975 to 1976, feeding 50 ft of RG59 and it was only up about 15 ft. I had no problem with Jax and Orlando. Tampa was there in day but not good, but I even listened some rock station out of Tallahassee at night. The band was much much less crowded in those days and it was at the time a state of the art Kenwood receiver.

I would say a 3 to 5 element quad would pull in the strong Jax FM stations just fine in Gainesville.

Sorry Tampa for being too far off topic, hope I tied in some general knowledge to make it ok.

KML-224

08-19-09, 08:06 AM

Piggie

08-24-09, 01:46 AM

I have quick question for the Tampa/Saint Petersburg market: With Florida being fairly flat and the influence of the Gulf, do the digital TV signals in your market get out well? Also, is e-skip still possible in your market? I live in Connecticut and just might visit the area soon for a couple of nights. :)

Long delayed answer. Nightly typical tropo in Florida throws all the FCC interference contours in the toilet. Unless you live in the right spot, one or more of your channels is pleged with co-channel at least up here in north part of the Orlando DMA. I am about 80 some miles north of the Tampa towers and can't see them here, except enough to wipe out at least one of my channels in light tropo.

Florida is only flat below Orlando, common myth that signals travel a long way here. I am 61 miles from Jacksonville Florida, and it's at 24 degrees on my heading. But the land rises from my 40 ft AMSL to almost 200 between us, blocking UHF. The hills and rises here are so subtle there is little knife edge off of them like in the mountains and sharper hills. Compared to a lot of other people I talk to around the country we actually have moderate to shorter range on TV here north of Orlando.

themicah

08-31-09, 11:51 PM

Some family members are moving to Sarasota and have a choice between Fios and Comcast.

Does anybody have the Verizon Home Media DVR that is offered with Fios? I think my family members would really like the idea of being able to record everything on one DVR and watch it from any TV in the house (living room, bedroom, kitchen), but from what I've read it sounds like it can only play back SD recorded material from other TVs. Further, some of what I've read suggests that only SD STBs (not HD STBs) can play back stuff remotely.

Is that true?! If so, it sounds like the Home Media DVR thing is just a gimmick and not really useful for a family with more than one HDTV.

Assuming they want to actually watch HD on their HDTVs, are they better off just living with live-only TV on two of the TVs and getting a regular HD DVR (or HD Tivo) for the third?

Any difference in reliability between HD DVRs or HD Tivo/CableCARD options offered by Fios and Comcast? I'm not concerned about picture quality or number of channels. Priorities are quick channel changing and reliability.

LarryChanin

09-01-09, 12:26 AM

Some family members are moving to Sarasota and have a choice between Fios and Comcast.

Hi,

Welcome to the neighborhood!

Does anybody have the Verizon Home Media DVR that is offered with Fios? I think my family members would really like the idea of being able to record everything on one DVR and watch it from any TV in the house (living room, bedroom, kitchen), but from what I've read it sounds like it can only play back SD recorded material from other TVs. Further, some of what I've read suggests that only SD STBs (not HD STBs) can play back stuff remotely.

Is that true?! If so, it sounds like the Home Media DVR thing is just a gimmick and not really useful for a family with more than one HDTV.

I have Verizon FiOS, but I've got one standard Verizon STB and two TiVoHD DVRs so I'm not familar with Verizon's Home Media or Multiroom features.

Assuming they want to actually watch HD on their HDTVs, are they better off just living with live-only TV on two of the TVs and getting a regular HD DVR (or HD Tivo) for the third?

I think the answer depends on whether you like to archive shows, sort of like collecting DVDs, or whether you just record over them after viewing. I bought the TiVos so that I could add an external 500 GB drive to archive movies in my home theater. Having multiple TiVos permits more storage. The TiVos can transfer recordings back and forth over a home network. In addition, TiVo offers a free PC application that permits transferring recordings to any computer on your home network. So you can effectively store unlimited content, constrained only by how much capacity you have on your computers. In addition to watching movies on your computer, each attached computer can transfer its content to the TiVos and play on your big screen TVs.

Any difference in reliability between HD DVRs or HD Tivo/CableCARD options offered by Fios and Comcast? I'm not concerned about picture quality or number of channels. Priorities are quick channel changing and reliability.

I've never used Comcast. We've had a Verizon STB fail once. My TiVos DVRs have worked flawlessly, but I've had trouble with the Western Digital expansion drive and lost content twice. I really prefer the Tivo guides over Verizon's. The channels change fairly quickly on both devices.

The only downside is that the Verizon cable cards used in the TiVos don't currently support Verizon Video on Demand. TiVo does have arrangements with Amazon Unbox and Netflix for downloading movies on demand.

Larry

themicah

09-01-09, 01:04 AM

The TiVos can transfer recordings back and forth over a home network. In addition, TiVo offers a free PC application that permits transferring recordings to any computer on your home network. So you can effectively store unlimited content, constrained only by how much capacity you have on your computers. In addition to watching movies on your computer, each attached computer can transfer its content to the TiVos and play on your big screen TVs.

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't aware of Tivo multiroom capabilities. That sounds great, particularly since they used to have a Tivo at their old house (so they're familiar with it) and it sounds like they can use Tivo with either Verizon or Comcast. Is it pretty easy to use the multiroom function? Any significant issues with the copy protection issues described here (http://whatsonhdtv.blogspot.com/2008/02/tivo-multi-room-viewing.html) using basic cable and network fare? What is the subscription cost for the second box? I can't find that anywhere on Tivo's site.

I suppose I should be taking this to the Tivo forum now...

LarryChanin

09-01-09, 03:06 PM

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't aware of Tivo multiroom capabilities. That sounds great, particularly since they used to have a Tivo at their old house (so they're familiar with it) and it sounds like they can use Tivo with either Verizon or Comcast. Is it pretty easy to use the multiroom function? Any significant issues with the copy protection issues described here (http://whatsonhdtv.blogspot.com/2008/02/tivo-multi-room-viewing.html) using basic cable and network fare? What is the subscription cost for the second box? I can't find that anywhere on Tivo's site.

I suppose I should be taking this to the Tivo forum now...

Hi,

Here's a few postings from another thread that may address your question.

NOTE:
By way of background the main discussion centered on the functionality of upcoming Blu-ray mega changers to store and recall HD content. However, there were some folks that were advocates of large capacity media servers despite their cost and complexity. My remarks about TiVo highlighted the reasonable cost and user-friendly aspects of using networked TiVoHDs.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16180565&postcount=152

Hi,

For folks who are looking for an immediate and relatively inexpensive, user-friendly solution to archiving and networking high definition content, albeit with not quite the video and audio quality of Blu-ray, perhaps TiVo HD DVRs might fit the bill.

Full featured TiVos are now available with 1 TB of on-board storage for less than $500 each with the option of adding another 1/2 TB of external storage for about $110. As you know, these devices produce almost no noise or heat and are easily adapted to racks and shelving units. Through the use of inexpensive modems multiple units can be networked via the existing TV coax already running through our homes. In addition, wireless network adapters, sometimes bundled free with the TiVo, are also available to conveniently expand the home network.

TiVo also offers free software that easily installs on all your PCs on the home network. The software permits legally copying and indefinitely archiving encrypted SD and HD content from your cable provider to the hard drives of all PCs, including a remotely located multi-bay device if desired. The TiVo HD DVRs located throughout the home and connected to their respective displays have access both to the content available on all the TiVos and as well as all the PCs. The well-designed TiVo menus make it extremely easy to view play lists, select, transfer and play content to any Tivo-connected display or PC on the home network.

The downside of this approach is that even at 50 mbps it can take hours to completely transfer an entire HD movie, but viewing can usually be initiated in less than 30 minutes. As was previously mentioned, this approach is no substitute for viewing Blu-ray content, but it does offer an immediate and practical approach to easily archiving and networking HD content. The content, while not exactly "free" is already paid for in your cable subscription fees, so no additional expenses are incurred to buy the content as in the case of Blu-ray discs. Currently TiVo has an arrangement with Amazon.com that permits buying or renting standard definition downloadable content via broadband.

Larry

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16181239&postcount=153

One correction on the TiVo softare point. It will allow to copy stuff to your PC if the provider has not marked it as copy protected.

If it is, then - unless you have a hacked version that ignores that flag - the sw will not copy it.

I have TiVo desktop 2.7 and I paid for the upgrade.

Seggers

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16182273&postcount=156

Hi Seggers,

Thanks for the clarification.

I have to admit with my DVD, HD DVD, and Blu-ray collections, as well as the content on my two TiVo HD DVRs (one with a 1/2 TB external drive), I currently don't have the need for archiving more content onto my PCs. So far on those occasions where I have transferred HD content to my PCs I haven't run into any copy protection issues, even when transferring from premium stations such as HBO. The only time I have seen the copy protection prohibition was for content downloaded from Amazon.com. To be clear, I'm not claiming the issue doesn't exist, just that I haven't run into it as a practical limitation yet.

For those not familiar with TiVo it should be emphasized that this copy protection limitation only pertains to certain content being transferred to PCs. Obviously there is no such limitation on copy protected content being copied to the hard drives of TiVo DVRs, which can accommodate up to 1.5 TB per device.

Larry

The multi-room function menus are completely intuitive. If you know how to navigate a regular TiVo you should have no problem transferring content. You go to a playlist, select the title, it asks you whether you want to transfer, you confirm. That easy.

The TiVo monthly subscription for the first DVR is $12.95, the second is $9.95. The cable cards are about $3 each per month. I have two per DVR.

Yes, I think any additional detail should be taken to the TiVo forum.

Larry

themicah

09-03-09, 09:17 AM

Getting back to local questions....

Are folks still getting the same Clear QAM channels from Comcast in Sarasota as listed in this post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11865108#post11865108) from a couple years ago? Will you be able to get all those channels with a QAM tuner if you subscribe to Comcast's $17/mo "Basic Cable" tier? Do the channel numbers move around much?

wallinbl

09-11-09, 01:53 PM

Is there a place to see the FIOS rollout schedule? I live in the Countryside area, and while they have delivered FIOS to much of the area quite a while ago, I seem to be in a small radius that still doesn't have it.

KML-224

09-19-09, 07:58 AM

I was in Tampa this past weekend for the Cowboys vs Buccaneers NFL game. I was at the Comfort Inn & Suites motel on Dale Mabry Highway, which is a short distance north of R.J. stadium. Anyways, here what the hotel had for their "cable", if you want to call it that:

4- TBS
5- WTVT (FOX) Tampa - channel 13
6- WFTS (ABC) Tampa - channel 28
9- CNN
11- ESPN
14- HBO
15- Headline News
17- ESPN 2
18- A&E
20- Discovery
21- CNBC
22- Cartoon Network
23- FOX News Channel
24- USA
25- The Weather Channel [national feed]
29- ESPN Classic
30- ESPN News
31- TLC
32- C-SPAN
33- Game Show Network
34- TRU-TV
36- HGTV
37- Travel Channel
38- MSNBC
39- WFLA (NBC) Tampa - channel 8
40- WTSP (CBS) Saint Petersburg - channel 10
41- WRMD (TEL) Tampa - channel 49 (low power analog)
42- WVEA (UNI) Venice - channel 62

Channel 16 was supposed to be TNT and channel 35 was supposed to be the History Channel. Yes, this meager "cable" had 4 ESPN channels on it. This, despite the fact that CW, MY and PBS were nowhere to be found.

jimwhite

09-19-09, 02:31 PM

at least they had ch23 !!

:D

SSgfunk

09-19-09, 04:14 PM

Please help me tune in CBS. I've tried 10.1.. no signal. I tried 24.1 and it redirects me to 40.1 with looks like the same programming on abc. I would really like to watch the gators. Any help?

flcs3

09-21-09, 11:49 PM

Please help me tune in CBS. I've tried 10.1.. no signal. I tried 24.1 and it redirects me to 40.1 with looks like the same programming on abc.

WTSP was broadcasting digital on RF channel 24 before the transition back in June, with a virtual channel (PSIP) of 10.1. After the analog shutoff, it has been broadcasting digital on RF channel 10, and is still using virtual channel 10.1. Virtual channel 40.1 is WWSB (RF channel 24), the ABC affiliate in Sarasota.

Depending on your TV set, you may not be able to tune directly to the station without doing a rescan. That should be your first step.

I would really like to watch the gators. Any help?
Sorry, this comes too late for Saturday's game. Not knowing anything about your antenna, your location, or what other channels you are receiving, this can't be very specific. But, there are a couple of important facts.

First, there are several stations broadcasting in the VHF-hi band: WFLA-7 (8.1, NBC), WTSP-10 (10.1, CBS), WTVT-12 (13.1, Fox), and WEDU-13 (3.1, PBS). Unless you are very close to the transmitters, you must have an antenna designed for receiving the VHF-hi band (RF channels 7-13). Many of the indoor "digital" antennas sold in the past few years have been for the UHF band only (RF channels 14 and above).

Second, the WTSP transmitter is in northern Pinellas county, whereas most of the other full-power stations in the area have there transmitters grouped in an "antenna farm" near Riverview, on the east side of Tampa Bay. So, you may need to point your antenna in a different direction than for the other channels. You might even need a higher gain antenna depending on your distance.

Given your address, the TVFool website will estimate the signal strength as well as indicate the direction of each transmitter at your location:
http://www.tvfool.com (http://www.tvfool.com/)

FloydJ

09-26-09, 09:25 AM

I was in Tampa this past weekend for the Cowboys vs Buccaneers NFL game. I was at the Comfort Inn & Suites motel on Dale Mabry Highway, which is a short distance north of R.J. stadium. Anyways, here what the hotel had for their "cable", if you want to call it that:

Yes, this meager "cable" had 4 ESPN channels on it. This, despite the fact that CW, MY and PBS were nowhere to be found.

That lineup looks similar to many hotels that use DirecTV or Dish satellite for their systems. Having 70-100 channels like cable companies provide is cost prohibitive for medium-sized hotels, but on the plus side they don't have a ton of garbage channels like shopping, religion, gov, ect.
Monthly programming fees for a system like you saw is about $9/room, while the cable company may charge 14-18$/room for all those wonderful extra channels.
The reason they have 4 ESPN channels is also cost related. The cost for the ESPN package is cheapest when the hotel has all 4 services, and is most expensive when they only subscribe to the primary ESPN service. This is due to the way ESPN markets themselves with their advertising rates.
The hotels using off-air channels have recently been forced to upgrade their systems to receive the digital broadcasts, and some of them are choozing to go with fewer off-air channels due to the cost of the conversion and the loss of revenue due to the current economy where hotel occupancy levels may be off 30-60%. I have seen the owners of some of these hotels doing the housekeeping chores with the manager, so you know they are hurting.

KML-224

09-26-09, 10:15 AM

I know what you mean by the ESPN thing. I had another recent hotel stay up in Portland, ME and, they too, had the 4-channel ESPN thing going on (1, 2, NEWS and Classic). Broadcast locals were limited to ABC (WMTW), CBS (WGME), FOX (WPFO), NBC (WCSH) and PBS (WCBB). I was also stuck with the Lodgenet service and a meager 27" Magnavox TV. :(

Ooshka

10-23-09, 08:20 PM

satpro

10-23-09, 10:05 PM

Tampa folks decided they are too good for AVS! So they left but I will try to help you with a list of QAM locations for the over the air HD channels on BHN Polk.

Clear QAM256 channels 104 through 112 has the HD over the air broadcast networks. Cable networks are encrypted of course. If you are not seeing the broadcast networks perhaps you need to try an amp or a direct run to the demarc to figure out why you are not getting those frequecies. Also, what package are you subbed to, perhaps they have a trap on the line? Again cable nets are encrypted only the OTA stuff has to be rebroadcast on cable unencrypted.

104-2603 3.1 WEDUDT 1280x720p PBS

104-2604 604.1 WEDUDT3 544x480i

104-2605 605.1 WEDUDT4 544x480i

104-2606 606.1 WEDUDT2 720x480i

104-2607 8.2 WFLADT2 640x480i

104-2608 8.1 WFLADT 1920x1080i NBC

105-2616 16.1 WUSFDT 704x480i

105-2617 16.2 WUSFDT2 704x480p

105-2618 16.3 WUSFDT3 704x480i

105-2619 16.4 WUSFDT4 704x480i

105-2627 32.3 Estrell 720x480i

105-2630 32.2 WMORDT2 704x480p

105-2632 32.1 WMORDT 1920x1080i IND

106-2610 610 WTSPDT 1920x1080p CBS

106-2622 622 UNKNOWN3 528x480p

106-2624 624 WTOGDT 1920x1080i CW

106-2631 631 WTSPDT2 704x480i

107-28615 615 UNKNOWN4 528x480p

109-2613 613 WTVTDT 1280x720p FOX

109-2614 614 PCSB 528x480i

109-2628 628 WFTSDT 1280x720p ABC

109-2629 629 WFTSDT2 704x480i

110-2006 6 WTTA 480x480i

110-2011 11.1 WFTS 528x480p

110-2013 613.2 WTVT 704x480i

110-2611 611 WTTADT 1280x720p MYN

110-2633 633 WXPX 1280x720p ION

111-2002 3 WEDU 528x480i

111-2003 3.1 WCLF 720x480i

111-2004 4 WTOG 528x480i

111-2005 5 WFTT 528x480i

111-2007 7 WFTV 528x480p

112-2007 15.1 WVEA 704x480i

112-2012 12.1 WMOR 528x480p

from:

http://www.silicondust.com/hdhomerun/lineup_web/US:33801#lineup_1001450

Ooshka

10-24-09, 09:41 AM

Hi satpro, This is what BHN is currently broadcasting In Lakeland (Polk) according to my Wintv7 software:

2001 112-2007 15.1 WVEA 704x480i

2102 Unknown 86.102 empty channel

4002 104-2603 3.1 WEDUDT 1280x720p PBS

4003 111-2003 3.1 WCLF 720x480i

4004 111-2004 4 WTOG 528x480i

4005 111-2005 5 WFTT 528x480i

4006 WTTA-SD

4007 111-2007 7 WFTV 528x480p

4011 110-2011 11.1 WFTS 528x480p WFTS-SD ABC

4012 maps as PS-2012 is an SD version of WMOR

4013 110-2013 613.2 WTVT 704x480i ws SD channel

4015 112-2015 Unknown (Actually CSPAN1)

4076 WRMD SD Spanish

4141 CNBC mapping id is intentionally blank

4162 119.2162 Unknown is GEMSTV shopping channel

4603 111-2002 3 WEDU-SD 528x480i

4604 104-2606 606.1 WEDUDT2 720x480i This may be the wrong freq maps as WEDU-K

4605 104-2604 604.1 WEDUDT3 544x480i again see above maps as WEDU+

4606 104-2605 605.1 WEDUDT4 544x480i see above maps as WEDUV (Spanish)

4607 104-2607 8.2 WFLADT2 640x480i RTV Network maps as 8 Prime

4611 110-2006 6 WTTA 480x480i

4613 109-2613 613 WTVTDT 1280x720p FOX

4614 109-2614 614 PCSB 528x480i maps as Polk-Ed

4616 105-2616 16.1 WUSFDT 704x480i maps as WUSF-D1

4618 105-2618 16.3 WUSFDT3 704x480i maps as WUSF-D3

4619 105-2619 16.4 WUSFDT4 704x480i maps as WUSF-D4

4621 112.2621 Unknown is NASA SD

4622 106-2622 622 UNKNOWN 528x480p is PGTV edu channel

4623 112-2623 112.2623 Unknown is The Florida Channel

4624 106-2624 624 WTOGDT 1920x1080i CW running in ED 4x3 when noted

4627 106-2627 maps as Estrell An SD channel

4629 WFTS-SD 11.2 ABC Weather channel

4630 maps as THIS TV Tampa Bay

4631 106-2631 631 WTSPDT2 704x480i

4632 112-2012 12.1 WMOR 528x480p 16x9 TV32

4913 129.2912 Unknown Causes WinTV to error out and close

30615 107-28615 615 UNKNOWN4 528x480p seems to be a local public service channel

The freqency only maps on WinTV7 if there is no other mapping info embedded it assigns a channel number as well, I put those in to show the order the channels were mapped. You will notice that
104-2608 8.1 WFLADT 1920x1080i NBC, 106-2610 610 WTSPDT 1920x1080p CBS and 109-2628 628 WFTSDT 1280x720p ABC were not picked up on this scan. ABC was active earlier in the day. I have a cable amplifier
on the line and wintv7 signal meter gives all signals decent strength. None of the signals exhibit any pixelation which you would expect with a
weak dtv signal. Selective filtering via trap does not seem very likely given the range of frequencies involved. In answer to the question of which service we sub too it shouldn't matter, but we have everything. The hd signals are on Encrypted QAM256 and come in fine through the box. albeit, mapped to alternate frequencies. So my question comes back to the original post, are they intentionally breaking the law as I understand the rule, or is there some aspect of the rule having to do with either digital systems, or negotiating the rights to rebroadcast over the cable system that preclude the requirement of them carrying an unaltered signal in Clear QAM256.

satpro

10-24-09, 02:28 PM

I see you can get RF 104,106, & 109. You mention ABC was there earlier, that could be a hint, could it be they are sending that stream as SDV/switched video? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_video
So they are not always there unless someone in the area is also tuned to them with a box. Clever way for cable to skirt the requirements. Just a theory, but if you also have a cable box you could tune one of them then do a scan and see if it shows up as clear QAM, while you are tuned to it with clear QAM tuner you would then tune away on cable box and see if the clear qam goes away.

Failing all this I would call one or all of the stations during normal business hours and ask to speak specifically with engineering and leave a message, there was a similar controversy in Orlando a year ago with BHN. The local ABC and NBC got a bunch of calls from veiwers, BH tried to claim they had simply shuffled the lineup but it was clear something else was really going on and after the stations got notice BH stopped playing games like this.

Ooshka

10-25-09, 10:00 PM

They don't seem to be using sdv.switched video for it, tried remapping on each of the encrypted channels with no change... cbs is active tonight but abc, nbc are down...will do some more checking and contact the stations this week to get there input. Thanks for your help.
-Oo

satpro

10-26-09, 12:00 AM

Seems like a new form of sdv in which the channels are transmitted in the same place but kept null ( inactive ) unless an official box calls upon them. This would reduce or free up the overall mbps required to transmit to each local headend.

bdraw

10-26-09, 10:19 AM

Is there anyone monitoring this thread that has some insight as to what the FCC requirements are for clear cqam programming on cable networks? I have read the FCC ruling on the matter and can reference it if need be. Specifically, what I am trying to get a handle on is why BHN isnt carrying an HD feed of the major networks in the market in the clear on a full time basis. They do offer them in lower rez versions. My understanding of the reading of the ruling is that they are REQUIRED to offer the signal in its unaltered state. Any discussion on this would be appreciated.

The FCC requires the broadcast channels are available to all equipment, so whether you are using a CableCARD device, clear qam tuner or BHN STB you should be able to watch ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS etc.

The only problems I've ever known about with BHN in Tampa is that they don't always pass on the PSIP data, they compress the signal even further and they move the channels around more often than others would like (once a month or so). And Windows 7 is one of the only DVRs that relies on the PSIP data for mapping. You can still map the channels manually though.

jimwhite

10-26-09, 02:26 PM

no you can't... the subchannel number is 4 digits and Win7 only allows you to enter 3 :(

:mad:

Ooshka

10-26-09, 10:44 PM

no you can't... the subchannel number is 4 digits and Win7 only allows you to enter 3 :(

:mad:

I think what you refer to there is the frequency number that the clearQam is broadcasting on...some tvs and software will show it too you, especially if the headend isnt mapping it to a dtv channel number. As near as I can tell ClearQam channels are being treated as an afterthought by BHN, there is no mention of its availability, and no consistency in the availability of hd versions of the networks, at least here in Lakeland.

Ooshka

10-26-09, 11:20 PM

The FCC requires the broadcast channels are available to all equipment, so whether you are using a CableCARD device, clear qam tuner or BHN STB you should be able to watch ABC, NBC, CBS, PBS etc.

.

That unfortunately is not necessarily true, and is at the heart of what I am trying to get a handle on. It looks like, (and I am waiting for confirmation on this) I have read the Fcc order making it the rule, and it is the rule, as long as the station requests "must carry" and doesn't demand a negotiated settlement for carriage of their signals. If they demand a negotiated contract for carriage then they essentially become a premium service subject to the provisions of any negotiated contract. Unfortunately many of the stations that are holding out for money are negotiating away there rights for carriage on ClearQam by telling the cablecos that they don't care how there signal is carried as long as it is carried, their thinking, I am told, is that it is a matter between the subscriber and the cable co. The FCC under the old analog rules had a "lifeline service" provision that required locals to be available on the first tier, and available to the public at a greatly reduced price. That does not appear to be available anymore, and is definitely not being extended to clearQam. So I think what it amounts too is unless there is a huge uproar by the public (which for all intents and purposes doesn't know it exists) ClearQam is going the way of the dodo. I may be wrong about this, its just one way of interpreting what I have read and learned, but it is apparent that at least BHN and from recent petitions to the fcc I think, Comcast would like nothing more than to see all there subscribers have to pay extra for a box or cablecard to pick up all there signals once they go all digital.